The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-01 00:00:00

T SUN, LON DON, SATURDAY, AUG UST 1,183 L

returns, but the result of -the whole corporators; with the Laiderrnan, and hisson:in law, the, recorder, were present, and
exception of these returned,. and they were not of any parti- ! if speaking what was untrue, could have eor wadictecl him; but
-tiler importance, was, that tire entire bode of corporators. the fates were never controeerted. • The aaent of the petrel'
might be safely taken at 13,000 throughout the whole of Ire- stated that Mr. Bolton effered 10,000/. for a renewal of the
lend, while the population of the boroughs was 900,000 ;so lease. In the discussion of tale e English Corporation Bill a
that the whole body which represented those 900,000 inhabit- great deal 'had been said of the manner in which the corporate
ants of those towns, by whom the puliec of tars :owns was go- property should be managed ; but they managed things hewer
veined, by whom their cffairs were directed— the body which 1 in Ireland, for there was never any psoperty'left to manage,
greeted all the affairs of that large constituency consisted of and all that discussion might be spared.--(- Hear.) lie would'
say that whatever the rank of the person, whether he was
mly 13,000 persons. In huge towns, and counties of cities
and towns, it was to be observed that these corporators who ' Lord or Commoner, or whatever his principles, whether Whig
vere so di: proportioned in their number to the inhabitants not or Tory, they all took care that no trouble should be given as
wily had the regulation of the police of the town under their to the management of property.—( Hear, hear.) Butre-
:barge, not merely directed and disbursed the corporate funds turn—as he had said, a sum of 10,0001 was offered by to
Mr.
and property—not merely had the selection of the magistrates Bolton for a renewal of his lease. The patron said it was too
,f the borough, and managed the municipal corporation—but little; Mr. Bolton .then said he would give 13,0001., and it
:iad the selection of the sheriffs—( Hear, 11e:10—which sheriffs was agreed that -the question should be referred to a
notary' ;
had the selection of the juries—( Hear, hear)—of the grand but in the meantime the patron declined renewing the I esase*
and petty kirks who tried all the civil as well as the cri- all,. and in 1829 he purchased Mr. BJlton's interest in the re-
'
minal causes of the country. _(hear, bear.) So that those mainder of the lease (two years), and gave 2,5001. for it.
sorporaters who lien been shown to he a small sectarian The patron's son was at that One Mayor of the town. The
and exclusive body, have the selection of tho grand jury and patron applied for a renewal of the lease, and his son, the
the petty jury, which is to sit in jadgment over the lives Mayor, at once rid him of all the citaibrous details of value
and property of the whole country. . Could it be wondered and premium, which had so much embarrassed the former ne-
at that the
.administration of justice should bo under sus- goeiation, and the Court without hesitation put the Corpora-
picion, when was .pleeed under teeeh leileone-e ?—( Hear.) tion seal to a lease granted to the patron without any premium.
But that was not the . only power they had. They had also Now, in the year 173 this land was worth one hundred and
the power of hrpos:ng taxation upon those whom they odd pounds a year; but in the year 1830 land it Ireland had
governed, entirely at their own discretion, and to any extent so fallen in value, the state of the country was so distracted,
they choose. The 100,000 inhabitants of Cork could be that this eacolleut Corporation, who said that they had the full
taxed Est diseopticam ity the 2,009, self-oleeted god unecine nod absolute dominion of the property of this borough to
trolletreornorators.-7i timid cheer;.) tiow this small body and for their own use and benefit, free, and discharged from
managCd tile corporations might be seen by looking into the any use and trust whatsoever, disposed of these 1,500 acres for
Report, but at present it was not his province to enter upon 86/. a year.—( Cheers.) The sequel of the transaction was
it. He would ask, however, if it was right, if it wee egreeos , this t--When the inquiry by the Commissioners was going on,
ble tq the htiacinlas of the eetwaltotioa Or to reason ;hat env ' it Wad found that the property was then vested in the Mayor,
hod) of rittionat men should codere that 13,000 seliheloete'd his father, the patron, having in the meantime died.--( Loud
persons should not only take possession of rill the corporate cheers.) And this was one of the persons who said that it was
preporty, but eras rnie the destinies and conteol the adminis- very outrageous in the people of Ireland to call for a reform in
tratign pf jostler: over 000,000 persons.—(Hear, hear.) their corporations—(Cheers.) He would ask the House if
With relpeOt tq the emolier to.Wlat the entire Corporation, in that was a state of things which ought to continue ?—( Loud
most instances, did not consist of mare than twelve persons, cheering.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite said, " You may reform
and as he. had before stated they were generally the nominees the English corporations, but you must not touch the Irish
of a 4 lades:slat!, or connected to each other, being parts of one cerperation3, for you will endanger the Protestant establish-
family. He Wei4l4, in the nrst piaee, call the ettehticot of the toent,—( Hear, hear.) was absurd to say that agitation ha-I
House to the state of the borough of Cashel i and he would anything to do with the call for reform. Agitation, however,
enlarge the more opea it, pot so ;mach en account of its Im- would continue upon that subject as long as the present system
portance, or its peculiar corruption, but because he was con- was allowed to continue.--( Cheers.) lie would dwell no
nected with that Wrong'', had examined the facts as stated in longer upon the case of Cashel, but he would beg to bring
the Report, and found theist eotlrely ehaahpt, per facto h.ad solder the notice of the House a case which occurred at Naas
not only been vouched for by the PAMPetoot 4nd dispassionate during the year 1832, as given by the Commissioners, but at
Commissioiteea, hat pad been the silllject of legal proceedings, • the same limo he would suppress carries, as in the former case..
' and the records of the Courts of Law In Ireland, bettwe which The case, as appeared in the Report of the Commissioners, was
most of the facts came, was additional proof of their correct- as follows :—" On the morning of the 20th of September 1832,
flees. Ha thought it might, therefore, be fairly stated that Lord law-ageot, at Loedship's house, by the direction
the foot,' gloms in the Repel might he safely relied lipgs as 9f the Piecicai'aaaa---;, entered in the corporation book the follow-
correct ; and, ferther, that the evils Which appeared tag resolutions :—Borough of Naas and county of Kildare, to
in one borough might be solid to exist under dif- wit. At an assembly held on the 29th of September 1832, before
ferent shapes in all the boroughs and Corporations through- R. .--so-; Esq., sovereign ; and the Hoe. and 11ev. G. and
pat Ireland. It appeared from the Report that " the mole.; J. ERcirg„ pqrtrppcx, i same,ng other resolutions it was-
tiou of the pity of Cashel in 1831 was 7,009, but incliiding reselved, that a -ce-form grant for one of the several lands
the liberties end commerw it might be. near 12,00(1, of and premise, comprised in letters patent of King James the
whom, ws were Wormed, that the majority were Itoman Ca- i'irst, bearing date the 2d of May, 1609, 'excepting, how-
tholics, perhaps in the proportion of 20 to 1. The state of the eito•enre,oar,:o therorescegrvipnr,cln 4cr
iiight9toctcii;
certain
ice-fa; ainclali titds grant from thisnd premises men-
town is by no means thriving or prospereos, and there ist
groat number of poor persons in a'state of distress. This is o.9eporatiera to the Right Hon. John .Lord Viscount the
ascribed partly to the want of sullleient employment fhr the ancestor of the Earl of —,' be executed and perfected
poorer classes, and partly its the itillua of persons who have by this Corporation unto the said Earl of —, his heirs
been ejected from their farms since the Subletting Act, and , attd essigoe, sobjeet to the yearly rent of VW. sterling."—
who generally come into the town in great poverty and dig- "'Resolved, That a fee farnl grant for one of the markets,
tress." Thp Report further states, " There is no considerable and several fairs of Naas, including the Tipper fair, with the
manufacture here, and there jg very litge omployrnent for the tellg, else:Wine, ko., tae eoceuted and perfected by this Corpo-
poorer classes, except in aftvaneltore, end eeet this is very un- ration until to the Right Hon. John Earl of —,
certain; because, at the sett/oral when labourers aro required, at the yearly rent of 9/. 15s. sd. sterling." These resolutions
gf the were passed without opposition, To this the Oomlnissioners
there is a considerable influx of them from ether peeta
country t" and it adds, " The wages of a labourer, on an added no fine Was to have beep paid for this fee farm grant,
average, throughout the mi. ere about Bd.. a day without his which, according to the rental produced by the Corporation
diet—( Hear, hear)—and this he selectee* only disaieg the time 10 the evidence of the lion. Robert —, was to convey for
he is employed, which is about two thirds of the year.—( [leer, ever 'to Lord _ a property producing 3201. a year*—( Loud
hear, hear.) A witness, who is a medical man, was in the cries of " Hear, hear")—exclusive of Mr. —'s rent and of the
summer of Stash, Secretary to the Board of Health in Cashel, rent of the barracks, and, according to the statement of the in-
and it became his duty to visit the habitations of the poor, and habitants, upwards Qf WI. o you're!. a vent of 121. per annum."
he stated that on that occasion he ascertained that there were The hone* of kilinallock, it appeared, had property at
five hundred families in Cashel without. a blanket to cover one time near the town, of considerable extent, in the whole
them.—( Hear, hear.) Now this evidence was given by a above 200 acres, and now producing more than 600/. a year,
person called by the Commissioners, but connected with the and a fair in the town with the usual tolls. Of the en-
Corporation, and as it Was given in open court, and viva voce, tire property, while in the pcmtsAio,n of tenants under de-
the corporators had an opportunity, if they did not !show to teal:0;14:111e Iht#tiaat 14ey, in the year 1776, granted a lease for
come forward with evidence themselves (which they did, three heels with covenant for perpetual renewal, reserving a
and he was happy to say that few Corporations had rent of 82L Bs. and a renewable fine of 51. on 010 fall of' each
refused to give evidence), they could at least have cor- life. The gentleman who repeiyed tide lease also returned
reetod the evidence of the medical man. So that Members for the borough tq the Irish Parliament, and at the
this statement was as likely to be true as as any evidence Union received 14,994 Of compensation. During all this
that could be desired. Now it appeared that the inhabitants Pried, from the PNecittion of the lease of 1776, the rent of 82/.
of Cashel suffered from the want of a supply of water. The was regularly paid, but as it was considered that after the
town had been formerly supplied from the river called Bolton's Union that body would be haeleel, and, therefore, might be-
river, which was brought into the town about one hundred write satinet, 1 became necessary to consider how the rent
years ago by Archbishop Bolton, but had soon after been di- should be disposed of. Accordingly a case was laid before
vented into a different course, and en Act of parliament pro- Counsel for direction as to what was to be done, and he advised
cured to prevent its being taken away from mills which were that if the Corporation were to become extinct, all property
built upon it. It appeared that a supply of water would be a belonging to it would lapse in the Crown, to prevent which it
great relief to all classes in Cashel, and particularly to the would be prudent to niche a conveyance of the property to
poor, who in summer are frequently cuiposad to eateenth haeon- the lessee, by whom it might be applied as heretofore to the
venience from the want of water. It was stated as the, opi, payment of the salaries of the Corporate officers, Which was
nien of an eminent engineer, that a sufficient supply of water accordingly done. By this bargain the Corporation gave a
for the aceornmodetion of the inhabitants could be procured property worth 844 to tho patron for SOL a year. He would
for 500/. ; and that a supply of water for manufacturing pur ask if snob transactions ought to continue ? Could the Le-
poses, could be brought to Cashel for 2,000/. or :3,000/., which gialatnre permit this self-nominated Government thus to mis-
if done, would perhaps be the means of promoting the wealth, - manage the affairs of the Corporations ? Would it permit
industry, and comfort of the inhabitants. That was the state them thusao neglect their daty—to abandon tho town—to neg-
of the poor of Cashel ; aod it fusther appeared from the Re- bet the regulation of the peliee_and to misapply the Corpo-
port that the town was not lighted, and that the streets were rate property ?—(Cheers.) Could a continuance of such a
as dirty and in want of repair as any in Ireland.—( Hear.) state of affairs be tolerated by those Who often expressed such
Now what was the condition of the Corporation of the town sympathy for the cause of the poor ? Could they be told that
which was thus described ? The House would be surprised this was a Jacobinical attempt to upset the established state of
when he told it that the Corporation of the town, the condi- things ? He proposed no such innovation. He did not ask
tion of the poor of which the Commissioners had described the House to remove power from one party to another,
as not merely wanting a full supply of water for the ordinary but lie called on them to release the Corporations from these
purposes of life, but being altogether deprived of it for the knots of usurpers, and to restore -it to thoso to whom, and for
purposes of manufactures—it would be surprised to hear that whose benefit it was granted by the founders. He proposed
that very Corporation was at this moment in possession of no rash or wild innovation on ancient principles. He pro-
-2,024 acres of land in the neigbbourhood of the town which posed that they should adhere to the ancient but not anti-
would let at an average at MI I/. per acre. Now for how quoted principles which had been acknowledged lately by
much would the House believe that these 2,024 acres worth the Legislature. The Hun. and Learned Gentleman then.quoted
1/. per acre were let ? They were let on a lease of 2191. several charters granted by James 1., to show that the inha-
a-year. How could this be ? How could any body of men bitants in general originally had power over the corporate pro-
venture thus to waste the property entrusted to them ? But perty, and were the electors of the governing body. Accord-
the right by which they venture to do it appeared plainly from ingly, the provisions of this Bill went only to constitute the
the answer which the corporators made to an information filed inhabitant householders voters in the election of the governing
against them in 1832, for misappropriating the corporate pro- body.—(Cheers.) He wished the House to recollect that in
perty ; for in that answer they state that " they are entitled to Ireland there was no general system of rating as in England,
hold the said lands, &c. to and for their own use and benefit, consequently the payment of rates could not be considered the
freed and discharged from any use and trust whatever, in abso- proper basis upon which to rest the qualification ; and it was
lute dominion and ownership. "._-(Cheers.) It was not neces- on this account that he proposed to give the franchise, not to
sary for him to show that, upon every obligation of justice and the rate-payers, but to the householders.—( Hear, hear.) The
right, these funds ought to have been applied tower a the good only test or qualification required for the constituency was,
of the Corporation.—( Hear.) So flagrant was this case that that they should be householders. In large towns, where the
if he had known no other, lie should, updn it alone, have con- population exceeded or amounted tb 20,000, he should propose
sidered himself entitled to ask for a Reform in the Municipal that the constituency should consist of the inhabitant house-
Corporatione.—( Cheers.) It appears from the Report that holders, as long as they should remain residents or occupiers
at the time of the inquiry the governing body of Cashel " con- of "any house, warehouse, counting-house, or shop." That
sisting of the Mayor and Aldermelloare said to he the ruling was, they must be constant residents within seven Miles of the
body of the Corporation; but, in point of fact, it would ap- town or borough in which the premises were situate on Which
pear that for many years the alwolute power, both over the they demand the right to vote. Every such house, warehouse,
property and privileges of the Corporation, has been exercised counting-house, or shop, must also he of the full value of 10/.
by the head or patron through the Ito: rd of Aldermen. Since a-year, and must have been occupied six months by the person
the h 1777 the patron of the Corporation seems exclu- demanding the insertion of his name on the burgess-roll.
sively to enjoyed the power of procuring the election Such was the constituency that he should propose for the large
n and of the several officers of the Corpora- towns, and he did not think that it could be said that the qua-
tion,.d , he elected by the Board of Alder- lificatioa was too low.—(Hear, hear.) He doubted whether
°°
any man looki- Householders of the large
ing ;of procuring the admission of freemen ; and of dinpoe- ~„g to the state of the hous
ewhAoldoe-ermre'7 said
ing of the Corporation body as lie Pleased ; preserving, how- towns in Ireland, could fairly say that it was too high. The
by having the orders corporate body so constituted, could not be controlled by any
efovrerg,rtaintetinfogrmth
eoflocaonrsp,ot,ractel
ettriatenrldettir tile Corporation books individual or set of individuals; they would form an ietelli-
as if made by the Board of Aldermen.- The late patron gent constituency, knowing their zigats, and determined to
seems also to have had the power of procuring the return of act up to and assert them.—(Cheers.) In the smaller towns,
the Members of Parliament for the city. of Cashel, These he intended to propose that the constituency slrsuld be com-
pewers he is alleged to have exercised for a period of 50 posed of persons occupying even a smaller description of
years." The late patron of the horeugh was a gentleman of houses, and residng whine the same distance of seven miles
great consequence and ;maid), and the list of aldermen, and from the town or borough. That was, that in those smaller
of the relationship or connection in which they irll Stood to towns any person who had occupied any house, warehouse,
him, showed the industry and care with which hi sought to counting-house, or shop, of the annual value of .51. or upwards,
confirm and perpetuate his power and influence. He would - should be entitled to have his name placed on the burgess •
not mention the names of the parties ; but they stood in the roll, and to vote at the election of the members of the coun-
following relationship to the patron s—The Mayor was son-in- cil, ty.c.—( Hear, hear.) Some persons might say that this
law to the late patron-Ist Alderman, brother pf ditto-2d qualification for the voters was tea low—(bear, hear, frem the
Alderman, son of ditto-3d Alderman, son of ditto--4th Al- Oppoeititto benches.) He was not surprised that there should
derman, son in-law of ditto--sth Alderman, son-in-law of be a eanzidor4ble cliflizoiice of OpiLloh sehjeet. He
ditto-6th Alderman, grandson of ditto—(Hear, hear)-7th did not arrogate to himself a claim of being in the right, or
Alderman, nephew of ditto-Bth Alderman, nephew of ditto that Gentlemen who held a contrary opinion might not have
—9th Alderman, nephew of ditto-10th Alderman, cousin of arrived at a correct conclusion : but he had stated his opinion
ditto-11th Alderman and Recorder, cousin of dltoaolOth fairly, that he thought that the class of persons he proposed
Alderman, cousin of ditto-13th Alderman, cousin of ditto— would fort a good cailstitlletley, 411 d ho was prepared to
14th Alderman, married to a nice of ditto—( A laugh)-15th maintain it—not merely by theoretical arguments, or speeu-
Alderman, first cousin of dist wife of ditto.—(Cheers, and lative opinions, or by allusions to the state and condition of
loud laughter.) Now, were all these Aldermen not under the the towns or boroughs, but by reference to experience and
sole rule and direction of one man.— (Cheers.) Thu Com- facts.—(Hear, hear.) He would take the city of Cashel,
missioners added—" The patrons influence in all things but which ho had the huontir to represent, and he waa sure tl;at no
returning the Member to Parliament, since the Reform Act is person who was acquainted with that place, or any other simi-
supposed still to exist; and it would seem that it has been laxly circumstanced, oho would say that there would not be
generally exercised fur the advantage of tiro patron and his so goed, so extensive, or so efficient a constituent body, if
friends, ar,d that little regard has for many years been paid to they took only the occupiers of houses of more than 10/.
the interests of the city or the public."—( Continued cheers.) valise, than if they adopted the constituency which he
_lle had now stated to the House the condition of the proposed.—(Hear, hear, hear.) This holy had been tried and
town of Carlow; but, with regard to its property, he might been found to answer well. A Bill had been brought into
say that it was leased out in ten leases, all of which the house in 1829, he did not know by whom (the 9th of
were in the hands of the family of the patron. Thare were George IV.), by which provision was made to remedy abuses
facts connected with one of the leases, which lie should like and supply defeats an the adminiztratien of certain things in
to state.—( Hear, bear.) It would occupy their time for corporate towns. It enabled the inhabitants to i ate themselves
some momenta, but he hoped he would be excused, as it would for the purpose of lighting, cleaning, and watering towns in
show how they managed those things in Ireland.—(Hear, Ireland, where provision was not then made. The constitu-
hear, and a laugh.) During the discussion upon the Reform ency which was appointed to elect the Commissioners under
Bill, a great deal had been said by Hon. Members on the op- this Bill was formed of the oceuptere of lion2e§ of N.
,er
op-
posite side of the House, in regard to the injury which would wards yearly value. This Bill provided that, whenever a
be done to the peorer towns of England by being deprived of certain number of the inhabitants of any borough or market
the freemen. lie hoped that the same feeling which dictated town in Ireland wished to have it brought into operation in
such sentiments—sentiments which he applauded—.would lead such place, that t wenty-one occupiers cloL houses should rneme-
the same Hon. Members now to extend that sympathy to the rialise the I.ord Peutenant tan the subject. That his Excel_
poor and humbler freemen of Ireland which they had so strongly lency might then call upon the inhatsitants to meet to consider
felt for the freemen of England. If they did not, the people the subject, and that all occupiers of houses of 51. yearly
of England would soon see frog; what all their sympathies and value or upwards should be entitled to select a certain num.
all their professions proceeded.—( Hear, bear.) Although her of corptpiasjoners to carry the laill late epot, 411 such
this was not an English question. the freemen of England, Trustees or Unlamissioners must lie occupiers of he-uses of
who were so much cherished, would see that they were the 211, a-year value or rental ; but the constituent body is
only objects for whom the struggle was made, if their pour comprised of the occupiers of si. houses or upwards. This
brethren of Ireland wore to be abandoned by those who so Bill had been brought into operation in Newry, Down-
powerfully sustained them. The Hon, 4nd I.,earned Gentle. patrick, Armagh, and several other towns, which it leas
man then stated the facts of the case to which he alluded. Itnnecesa4rY 19.1. him to l'aelltiaa. lenew that it he'd
In 1732 a devise of 1,648 acres of land had- been made been carried into operation in several towns most ben.,
to a Mr. Bolton, on a lease of 9P years, at a rent of ficially, and that the Qommissioners het been elected by
86/. 7s. 6d. This lease naturally dropped in 1831. But the the fIeP4OPP of 41' houses. These Ptaraniesieoere were
occupier, Mr. Bolton, applied for a renewal of the lease in elected triennially, they held their office for . three years,
1825, or 1826. The facts he was about to mention were and went out together, and might here-elected, but in the
stated in evidence by the agent of the patron on whom the no- measure he now.pronosed one-third part of the Ccouricii
floe had been served, and the patron, together with his son, the go out of °Mee annually. The Bill had worked well vvii:"`:`
vn

had been carried into effect. Ile had never' heard an (Nee-
tion to it, or theft it had led to any thing like sectarian feeling
es to who were elected Commissioners. He contended, there-
fore, that the
_principle he propesed to proceed in had been
fairly tried, and had justly and truly answered. In towns in
the north and the south of Ireland this 5/. constituency had
been tried. The population of these places was composed of
persons of various persuasions : in some one class preponde-
rated, and in others a different denomination was superior,
and in many towns the two classes were nearly equal, but he
bad never heard any complaint. Ile had never heard that
the richer class was opposed by the poorer voters, but that
wherever it had been fairly and duly applied it had worked
extremely well.—( Hear, bear.) This, then, was the principle
on which he proceeded, and in this respect the measure he
offered to the House differed from the English Bill. -There
Were some other differences also between the Bills, which
it would be his duty to mention to the House, but this
was the principal and most important difference between
the measures for the two countries. At the same time he
wished to observe, that he had followed as nearly as pea.
sible the provisions of the English Bill. It was svell known
that there were no overseers of parishes in Ireland, and,
therefore, he proposed that the churchwardens of parishes
should make out the list of voters the first year; after
which time he proposed that the town-clerk, or that the
aldermen of welds, where there were wards in a town, and
that the lists of voters should be revised by. the mayor. He
did not ask for any revising barristers, for he thought that the
mayor might be sufficiently checked and controlled by the
provisions of the Bill. • In England they had not a description
of courts of . ustice which existed 'in Ireland, he meant the
Courts of Assistant Barristers. He proposed that when the
mayor of any town or borough should wilfully and corruptly
exclude any person from the burgess-roll who was entitled
to have his name on it, or should place the name of any per-
son in the list of voters who may not be qualified, that he
should be subject to a penalty not exceeding la, to be reco-
vered before the Assistant Barristers, and this without any
coats to the person prosecuting. No man could complain
that a public officer was subject to punishment—not for an
error of judgment or a mistake—but for the wilful and corrupt
exercise of power entrusted to him for the general good.
The sum to be recovered was certainly not too high, nor did
he believe that it was too low. Of course he meant that
10/. should be receverod in each individual case It was the
impression of his mind that a person in office anxious to exer-
cise his power corruptly, would be the more deterred in doing
so by the instant recovery of penalties before the Assistant
Barristers, than by the fear of the shame of exposure before
the superior courts or the Revising Barristers.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) There would be no difficulty in getting sufficient
evidence to convict. If they could prove corruption in the
exercise of power in s,uperior cases, surely they could in-these.
For instance, they could prove that a man duly qualified to
register his vote had applied for enrolment, and he showed
that he was entitled from the property held by him, and yet
the mayor refused to place his name on the burgess-roll ; if
the mayor could not give a satisfactory answer, and justify his
refusal, his conduct might fairly be supposed to be influenced
by some corrupt motivo, and then ho might be sued by civil
bill before the Assistant Barrister or the Recorder's Court in
the borough. Prejudices might exist against this mode of
proceeding, but at any rate he was at liberty to try the ex-
periment, and he trusted that no attempt would be made to
put a shield before what he proposed, on the plea that the
course he. proposed was not a sufficient mode of proceedinz.—
( Hear.) If on trial it should prove to be inadequate, w'hich
he did not think would be the case, it would he very easy
to adopt some other arrangement.—( HMO He would not
trouble the House with going at length into many other pro-
visions of the Bill, which wore nearly similar to those in
the English Bill. lie proposed that the mayor and council
should be °looted in the manner proposed in the English
Bill, but with this difference, that the mayor should not be
chosen immediately after the election of the council, but that
he should, be . elected at a different period of the yet:. The
object of proposing this was not merely beca.Use the custom
now existed in Ireland, but he thought tleat it was desirable on
several grounds. - For instance, "were might be two very
proper persons for tb' office proposed as councilmen, and
each party wifot be anxious to have one of these persons
(.41`Z`niel mayor; if the election of this latter officer followed,
immediately on the election of councilmen, strong party reel-
inga might be excited, and great exertions would be made to
prevent one or other being chosen councilman. This feeling
might often operate to prevent persons admirably qualified to
act as members of the council being chosen into that body ;
he therefore thought that the elections should take place at
different periods.—(Hear, hear.) It was also proposed
that towns containing more than 12,000 inhabitants should
be divided into two wards ; if above 18,000 inhabitants,
four wards ; and that all towns containing more than 24,000
inhabitants should be divided into as many wards as the Lord
Lieutenant shall think fit, provided that the number of coun-
cillors in each ward shall be six or upwards. With respect to
the sheriffs of counties, of cities, and towns, he proposed that
the councils of those places should elect them. There was,
however, one objection to this, namely—the Sheriffof London-
derry. There was a peculiarity in this case, for Londonderry
was not a city or county in itself, but was united to the county
and called the City and County of Londonderry ; and there was
one sheriff for both city and county. He proposed, there-
fore, that the sheriff of Londonderry should be nominated by
the Crown, as other sheriffs were. Again, he proposed that
the council should. have the power of nominating charitable
trustees, and other boards for watching or lighting the bo-
rough ; and that rates should be made. and levied for these
purposes. His Right Hon. Friend opposite knew how many
boards now existed in the various towns and boroughs in Ire-
land whose accounts were never looked at on that side the
' water. There existed now no sufficient power of controlling
or checking the expenditure of their boards, or if it existed, it
was next to nothing in operation. Ono of the boards in
Dublin levied 34,000/. a-year in this way. This board not only
had control in the city of Dublin, but in several other towns.
In several of the towns in Ireland there were no fixed return-
ing officers for members to serve in Parliament. This was
the case in Newry, which had returned a member to serve in
Parliament time out of mind. It was a rich, populous, and
flourishing town, and yet there was no mayor or other fixed re-
turning officer; the person who exercised the functions of that
office was the seneschal of a neighbouring manse, who was named
by the proprietor of it. This was also the case with Down-
patrick. [Mr. O'Connell observed that this was also the case
with Dungarvon.] He conceived that a town containing a
respectable and wealthy population should have the advantage
of a fixed returning officer, and also possess the common mu-
nicipal officers. This was to be the case with the towns of
Newry, MalloW, Dune•arvon, Downpatrick, and Lisburne. It
was also intended that in all other Boroughs the names of a
certain number of persons shouldbe selected by the Council
and sent to the Lord Lieutenant, and from this list the jus-
tices of the peace for the town or borough should be selected.
At the same time, however, the Crown should have the power
of naming as many other magistrates as it might deem right or
fitting for any town or borough. lie proposed that his Ma-
jesty should have this right or nominating magistrates in their
places when necessary, because in Ireland party feeling was
often very strong, and might prevail in the choice of magis-
trates. Thus, the justices of the peace might be named by
one party, and their conduct might be influenced towards those
who had taken a part against them. This might be the case
as well with one party as the other—whichever might be
strongest in the place. He also proposed that there should be
a power in the Bill, by which it was enacted that nothing in
the .Bill should affect the rights of existing freemen. There
was'another proviso respecting the property belonging to a
borough which would affect many places, and among others
Cashel.—(Hear.) He perhaps should best make himself
understood, by reading the clause : —" Whereas many of
the said Municipal Corporations in Ireland have been, and
now arc, seised and possessed of dieers lands, tene-
ments, and hereditaments,_and the same have been granted
to them, and ought io be vetted in them 'for -the pub-
lic good and benefit of the said boroughs respectively ; and it
is expedient to make further provision than now by law exists
for preventing the abuse, usurpation, waste, and misapplication
of such property, and to secure the preservation and due and
faithful application of all such property, and of all other pro-
perty, which may hereafter be so given, or granted to, or
acquired by Municipal Corporations, for municipal purposes ;
be it enacted, that in any case of abuse, usurpation, waste, or
misapplication of any such property, or of any breach of trust
in respect thereof, or wherever the direction, decree, or order
of a Court of Equity shall be deemed necessary for the due
administration and application of any such property, it shall be
lawful for his Majesty's Attorney-General for Ireland, or for
any two or more burgesses of borough, to present a petition
to the Court of Chancery or to the Court of Exchequer in
Iceland, stating such complaint, and praying such relief as the
nature of the ease may require ; and it shalt be lawful for the
Lord Chancellor, Lord Keeper or Lords Commissioners of the
Great Seal, or the Master of the Rolls for the time being, and
for the Court of Exchequer, and they are hereby required to
hear such petition in a summary way, anti upon such other
evidence as shall be produced upon such hearing to determine
the same, and to give such relief and make such order therein,
with respect to the costs of such application, and to enforce
the same by injunction or otherwise, as to him or them shall
seem just, and such order shall be final and ecnclusive, un-
less the party or parties who shall think himself or them-
selves aggrieved thereby, shall, within two years from the
time when such order shall have been passed and entered
by the proper officer, have preferred an appeal from such
decision to the House of Lords, to whom (it is hereby de-
clared and enacted) an appeal shall lie from such order."
This provision, he was satisfied would be found to be extremely
useful in Ireland, considering the state of things that pre-
vailed there. In many places the means of the people were
so small that it would be impossible for them to enter into a
contest with a Municipal Corporation. There was also a
precodeat for what he proposed in an Act that passed in 1813,
and which had been found to work extremely well. The
great object was to shot ten as much as possible litigation, and
to lessen the expense of it, (14 this ground he proposed
that the berg-semi of a borough should be allowed to proceed
by Petition instead of filing a bill.. This was in peiat of fact
doing nothing more than restoring the old system which ee.
isted in the Court of Chancery. There yaw: also provision
made for the ressuleticie ss-f the Local Courts for the recovery
of debts—arrangements were made and pointed out in various
clauses by which debts might be recovered. Debts not c,
ceeding 20/. might be recovered in the Court ce; Ikreord of
the town or borough by the eld eearee of nii-nmon law, and
such actions shall pea i a recoverable by certiorari cr other
proccas save saiit'ef error after judgment. This proceaa was
very simple, and the proceedings before the tribtn-ial syenial he
readily conducted, 4a4 thg ollelatlon of these Courts bu repo-
' dered henefinial, -tAetriin. it 174§ propeaed to M •
Courts or Conscience fur the rberwA— ...-guiate the
Courts of Request, as tam
.eey of small debts, or
now exi°' ---ne were called in this country. They
—et. in several parts of Ireland, and
.were found to be
Very .useful, and where they did not now exist, it was intended
in cstAblish them. There were four classes regulating the

!nee of proceeding. in- those Courts, bat it ,vas unnecessary
fir him then to c;plaia the details. There were sevi ral =Mel
not alluded to in this Bill which were to be found iu. that re-
lating to the English corporations ; but this arose is conse-
quence of the state of circumstances in England differing front;
those in Ireland. Such was the general outline of the provi-
sions of the measure which he hoped to be able to lay on the
table. lie believed these provisions, if fairly carried into effect,'
would enable them to establish a fair and adequate municipal
government in those towns aid boroughs where it was most -
wanted. The Bill provided for the local government of those
places. Due provision was made for the establishment of
new police force, and, at the same time, for the resident magite..
tracy. With the exception of Londonderry, there were few
towns where there were resident magistrates connected with
the corporation. Generally speaking, the magistrates and al-
dermen of a corporate
.town in Ireland did not now reside
within the boundary of the borough. But, by this Bill, the
constant residence el a good magistracy would he provided for.
—( Hear, Itsar.) Such were the details and objects of the Bill
which he had to propose, which, if fairly carried into effect, he
had no doubt would prove eminently successful.—(Cheers.)
lie concluded with moving for leave to bring in a Bill to regu-
late Municipal Corporations in Ireland.
Me. SHAW could not persuade himself that it was in-
tended to do more at that period of the session than lay the
Bill on the table.—(Loud cries of " No, no.") It appeared
to him to be most extraordinary that such a mearere should be
introduced within a few hours of the let of August. It was
obvious that it was utterly imyossible to ck, justice to it at this
late period of the session. He was sr.:prised that the Learned
Gentleman should have said so truth res;:ecting the borough
of Cashel. He (Mr. Shawl thought that as the Learned
Gentleman had been so loosg opposed to the corporation of that
town, he would have eoetained from alluding so pointedly to it.
His Right Hon. and Learned Friend must know that even if
Cashel waaeihat he described is to be, all the Corporations in
Ireland al.ld not resemble it. There was an essential difference
betwten the cases of England and Ireland as regarded this
q'estion. If there were abuses in the Irish corporations, he
would consent to remove them. He could not consent to a com-
plete change in the system. Might they not devise other means of
giving additional force to the means of improvement which now
existed in these corporations, without resorting_ to extreme
measures. The truth was, that many of those boroughs were
instituted for the purpose of protecting and upholding the Pro-
testant religion in Ireland.—(Cries of " 'Oh," and " Hear.")
He did not say that this was the case in every instance, but
there was no doubt it was so as regarded many places. Ho
was also satisfied that the preservation of the present corporate
boroughs in Ireland was most important as tending to keep up
and perpetuate the connection new existing between England
and Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) By this measure power would
be given to those who were exerting themselves to procure a
separation of the two countries. He did not feel called upon
to go into
.the provisions of the Bill at the present time; he
would, however, shortly allude to a few of them. He was
satisfied that the penalty of 101. to be imposed on the Mayor
in case of wilful abuse of the power entrusted to him would
prove altogether inadequate. The case would never be pro-
secuted before the Assistant Barrister's Court, or if it was,
a conviction would never take place. If the person who was
to fill the office of Mayor was to be of respectability, they
would impose higher penalties, to be recovered in the supe-
rior Courts. He would rather that the appointment of the
sheriff's should in all cases be vested in the Crown. The se-
lection would be much better than if they were to be elected
by the tccwn councils. He expected that he could, not then
go into all the details of the measure at that stege ; but he
trusted that it would be postponed until next 'session.
Lord J. RUSSELL trusted that the state of the House
would be such on the discussions on thi"l3ill, although it was
such a late period of the session, as 'co enable them to go on
with it to a satisfactory conclusioee,—( Hear, hear.) To any
proposition which went to.the., extent that the great principle
of the English measure `-enould not be applied in a measure
for the reform of the Trish Municipal Corporations, he would
give his unequivoeeil and decided negative.—.(Cheers.) Ho
thought that tie House could not, consistently with justice,
say that e7faat was good for England, and applicable here, was
not sl; as regarded Ireland, but that self-elected Corporations
a:ta irresponsible power in Ireland was good, and should be
continued.---(Loud cheers). He trusted that his Hon. and
Learned Friend would not only introduce the Bill, but that
there would be ample time, during the present session, fully
to discuss it, and that it would become the law. He trusted
that the English Corporation Bill would survive the very
heavy fire which it had been exposed to for a few nights else-
where—( Cheers and laughter)—and that •it would ere long
receive the sanction of the Legislature unimpaired. If this
Bill was or was not to sustain a similar fire from some Irish
lawyers, he knew not.—( Laughter.) This, however, he would
say, that as he had no doubt the English Bill would survive
the attacks he had alluded to, so likewise the Irish Bill would
be triumphant over any assaults of the same nature.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said the time had come when there
must be an end of these corrupt corporations. The Right Hon.
Gentleman, however, begged for delay, and prayed that they
might be allowed to survive another winter..—(dear, hear.)
The time, however, had now arrived, when the power they had
hitherto usurped must be taken from them. Do not let it
longer be said that 13,000 of these corporators—selfclected
and irresponsible—should manage the affairs of 930,000,
(Hear, hear.) But, according to the Right Hon. Recorder,
the large body were to have no relief because they were Ca-
tholics. He said that the Irish Corporations should continue
in their present state, because they had been created for the
protection of the Protestants. This might be the case in some
small towns; but in several instances—by far the larger ma-
jority of cases—the Corporations had been formed for ages b=-
fore the Reformation.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Then the Cor-
porations were framed to uphold and secure the connection
between the two countries. The Corporation of Limer'ick,
however, existed several years before any English person was
in Ireland. This was also the case with Cork. Thee. it was
said that the reform of these Corporations would tend to
sever the British connection. Where, howeeer, was Bri-
tish connection when the Corporation of Limerick was
founded? it was notorious that there was a Corporation in
Limerick when the Danes invaded the country. Where,
then, was the 13,000, who arrogated to themselves the au-
thority which should be possessed by the 930,000. He trusted
the time had at length arrived when they should have the ad••
vantage of having British institutions. Was not the Learned
Recorder fully aware that small penalties were snore easily re-
covered than those of large amount ? When the penalties
were high, and the question went to a Jury, it was extremely'
difficult to obtain a conviction. By the plan proposed the pe-
nalty would be easily recovered, and would certainly be en-
forced. The Learned Recorder said there would be no con-
victions ; certainly there would not if they did not by the cases,
but otherwise there would be no difficulty. If it could be
shown that the Mayor had refused to place a Catholic in the
list of voters when he admitted a Protestant under the same
circumstances, there would be a good ground of action and a
sufficient reason for enforcing the penalty. It was said
that these cases should not be tried at the Assistant Barrister's
Court ; then let the parties have their choice of trying the ac-
tion in . a superior Court, or in that proposed in the Bill, lie
would not, however, go into details, but he could not refrain
from expressing his gratification at the measure ; it was the
first time that they had.admitted the people of Ireland to Bri-
tish institutions.—( Cheers.). He had then no wish to pro-
nounce the epitaph on the now almost defunct Corporations Of
Ireland. Almost all were exclusive ; Tuam was one of the
exceptions. In that town a majority of the Council was com-
posed of Catholics ; but in other places they were excluded,
and a religious distinction was kept up. Most of these Cor-;
porato towns had fallen away and were decaying ; Tuam,
however, was a prosperous town, and increasing in wealth,
and no sectarian feeling existed there. In this town there
were 4 01.500 Protestants and 17,000 Catholics. The Commis-
sioners, in their Report, say, " In one Corporation alone, that
of Tuam, the majority of the governing body is Roman Ca-
tholic, one only of the burgesses being a Protestant." The
laws which, for a series of years, operated to exclude those
professing the Roman Catholic religion from Corporations,
were repealed in the year 1793, byrthe statute 33:1 Geo. 111.,
c. 21. But the Roman Catholics have hitherto derived little
practical advantage from the change. In the close boroughs,
they are almost universally excluded from all corporate privi-
leges. In the more considerable towns, they have rarely been
admitted even as freemen ; and, with few exceptions, they are
altogether excluded from the governing bodies. The Dublin
Report had not yet been, presented, because there were so
many abuses in that place, that they could not be got together
in a shorter space of time. A great deal lied been brought out
on the subject before a Committee up stairs; and there was
now, on the 15th Report of the Commissioners, a judicial in-
quiry. He recommended them to the Learned Recorder for
his perusal. There was no sacrifice which the party opposite
were not disposed to make to maintain the existing system.
They would, no doubt, endeavour to raise a religious cry in its
defence ; but let them beware how they appealed for such a
purpose to that feeling which ought to be kept the most free
from the reproach of evil association. lie hailed this Bill 'A
an earnest of better days for Ireland—she had never had
jts-
tice done to her yet. From the first period of her coesiexion
with England, the system pursued towards her was e'eat of ex-
clusion. That principle was most cruelly eilfired till 1608.
In 1607, it was no offence for an Englishman' co' kill an Irish-
man.—(e Hear, hear.) It was a justification of a murder if the
individual murdered was an Irishman, and, indeed, it was so
pleaded : as late as 1607 that state of Wiles existed.—( Hear,
hear.) Of course at that period no British protection was
extended to Ireland ; since then they bad got it nominally,
but there was unfortunately a distinction still to be removed-
-There remained corporate monopoly, which lie was hapry to
say was now the only barrier against their being on a perfect
equality with respect to civil rights.—( Hear, hear.) ''bat last
grievance the Government called en the Legislaterc now to
redress. The measure could not fell to pass this House.--
( Hear, hear.) It was wise, it was, equitable, it was Christian,
and he was sure it would pews this ficuse.—( Cheers.) Was
there anywhere else whom the rights of Irishmen and Their
liberties were to lie withstood ?—was there anywhere else
where they were held to be of secondary importance ?-11:14
the anywhere else where they would turn a deaf car to claims
like these, though they would listen from hour to hour to
some buffoon, who amused hituaelf by garnishing everything
sacred with a, sliszeirUng ribaldiv ?—( Hear, hear.) Talk of
the lieeetelty for supporting rani: and station, indeed !_ewlre
was there ever a meeting of au trade that would tele-
rate for a single minute. vets ',rash as he had adveered to.
—(Cheers) ? Was cutctv in such a state that men would
allow one indisideel s'f a body to drag the others through the
Or? by the use a every species of vituperatieen and buffoonery,
4:41115i u sound constitutional measure, -He was not afraid
wilt this House would not carry alfee Bill with a triumph:tn!
majority ; it would then be taken elsewhere, and lie trusted
e
that a majority would greet it there also. The. voice
England would be heard ; . if- they rejected the measures, 001
them be, all the consequences.
Mr. GOULBURN regretted that the Hon. and Leareed,
Gentleman had indulged' in personal attacks, Unicrstandin

NiNt ..teh abuses prc
,:srk%N;latrisi.en\oGytioryielcis.t:
Ic
4rillPt'allllllitat''i.altl3:l';:eiauing‘a:.Y-Mt°dnAilli4anitv‘rn'uttt'llaegsl:::ebtv'g.dth.,.rt;o:. beingiaa' i'd'inoisceitleiBLui've:Larluobpirt'lSauatr'sinTveulid'.l nfeotel'rEunsPehodirl 'iP:Ll:7'cdArdauaruetliiritc°naile'eltt'sPis°lll:bnsdi(Rnaa.st:laaollaeNanly):dorre.etEni°stndtnen'tisr:ditit'.l'll:ljlll
tl 1 ° Corporation
r
d
guar,- . - ---,
hal a r
that theeee:Peorattti
:ebrs, he conceive
persist
heist in aitributi
rest chose to wits
uttere-d!ay, HegPre,arvoteht
heneallic to have al:
ial, and
t h ;
shortlylne in the „
in thee arguncyt
table of of this Sct
op;ni of the i-iou
le as to the
aht:ol:l.ee::cirnreletnreirni:lo.w'lelsifidati:PowCaeLeir:ettifloealtNteriaentti:l(l'
tlttilt
tell
Inizreaceciec_(
jeydreo2apoi, errfint.oropqoonitp,,lei,
,imeplteralooiplilovbfito:hdayleresetnsosfottrfLnsruentugoe.
eon
.heri,:
tslilsted of 3 7 Rom,
Le Learned G „
M
el
l
tenreaa4autttrsiel‘liirstsieoiearnorrttai.C..inn-ie,gPni3Cs.arbdbicUßE,Py.tesß,NlEesieLtenilKvilvteNleoseECeincta,,j
be Mr. RUT' 7
wished to "I
of the Noble
41tItnittbesiiiihe.Bnil_
r,..e,idtefnidswethhdtaehfspoapaartabrttrlshhtieyal
lty of C
Colonel resistin,
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any
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The
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Lo CASE
44114 A Ip,,rur:rndi 0 NjVllBll2ll.4NLia
of, the "o not
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11
the 4 uable 13
subject of tha.

L A
eru JOHN
move
I:t:heul House of
~t;:ergeant-at.-
.
NISLIVE
',,j'.°4l 0 i?.'P
- (Jul for
I''4s the bet
nt, of offence:
iar, were glad
anProved an
th '
‘.04.1 e neeessi
the„ called
',;'°al(l not
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44,1 safegm
teetfrle Consult
torti°l' to the-pe•
renr,mtliy. \\T`i
the ta,',(led the c
ruinie peace
thatrns whici
ro.there hod no
ultged to •
rlontber nut
tntal of outran
that number of
"ay, an
in thee in 1833
pres:mt ye
ucti But he v.
ueereased
umber of all
to thelladeed a g
Under ?cad
m,ist„lne influet
'Y ; but at
vleY had
toiQrbeen
thus 'l,nd exa
t. who coma
the 0 value f
then pro(
I.,:=o,ll.spectors-1
trAtt'e were all
from the c
rt,: eonjuncti
th
amount
Sail?",e aggravat
to
int in Irelan,
adonls state of
,„ Pt the mol"
•
t
measure v
ntruttee apps
fr turbid distri(
11"°n' Queen's C
• Vriend tl
had b
chain
ofqti, constit.
°Liinary
14 1 bSe noctor
IvbiP,ursuanee
"thYl. show
tec-;-;,°-Lieut
off a a.°ls.'ernbl
.
gssc
4.! and which
till tr Cod
distric
the L 'tY
• c'rd-Ueut
fission ;
liver tally whenf °citi
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ThltePort
ato remark
v. regular
qi(l42, ti; f‘"l,
liai,Sted, it
11,-s",o!' has'
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lore es with lull
arid"',,r,t of t;
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licht "T-1' as the
Ikeo()I the rifr,
Qr -14•3 e ;its
1 -
sioPerise which
11),11, and th"
101, n' matt lc
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D"ros-r,t,ion3. "11
pro;:-.;,4 sufticie:
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th '4°,l\ inn.
er' Pr
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P'tiod
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ions,
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little
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been.
are

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tiler
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W 25

ex-
OS.
ish-
the
so

teir
Ise
1.113

- ,
that the -present measure was founded upon the extent to
which abuses prevailed, as described in the Reporte, he thought
it was not requesting too much for his Right lion. Friend to
ask the Government to postpone the measure till all the Re-
ports were upon the table of the House.
Mr. WILLIAM ROCHE said that if the Government had
brought forward no other measure, this alone would entitle
them to support.
Mr. LEFROY remarked that the tendency of the measure
II light be ascertained from what had fallen from the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who, having told them that in
ti ie Corporation of Tuarn there were 37 Roman Catholics, and
one Protestant eepressed his approval of that state of
thines, and said it would be found that every Corporation in
I rela'nd would shortly be in the same condition.
Mr. O'CONNE I, L—l rise to order.—(hear, hear.) I
s aid no such thing--( Hear, hear)—and the Hon. Member
I noes I did not.---.( Loud cries of " Order" from the Opposi-
f ion Benches.)
Mr. SHAW rose to order.
;Mr. LEFROY was not surprised et the way in which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman met his assertion : he had been
Long enough a Member of the House not to feel surprised at
zany declaratien the Hen. and Learned Gentleman might make,
or at the manner or temper of its delivery. He was not, then,
nmeh surprised, neither was he much distressed by the lan-
guaffbe used by the Hon. and, Learned Gentleman. What he
sated was, that the hoer. and Learned Gentleman did say
drat the corporation of Tuam consisted, with one exception—
that being a Protestant—of Roman Catholics. In making this
statement he attributed to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
what he conceived he had heard from him, but he wonld not
Persist in attributing thy: to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
if he chose to withdraw it, ee to correct himself. He would re-
Peat, however, that he consideret: he Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman to
have also said that such a s;."..ae of things was most
and that they would find every cori:eration in Ireland
se.ortly in the same condition with the corporatiom: of
.T:tain'
e
Ile then argued that the present was not the time to .
measure of this sort. The Reports ought all to be upon tee
table of the House, before they were called on to deliver an
°Pinion as to the Bill.
te Air. O'CONNELL now rose_to explain. He said that the
1;1°11. and Learned Gentleman, by omitting part of that which
e did say, gave a totally different meaning to what he really
u.ttered. He declared that the corporation of Tuam con-
the "
of 37 seoman Catholics and one Protestant, and that
le most perfect harmon • dth He had said that
there y pro e ere.
was a total absence of all religious dissension, and he
added his wish that every other corporation in the kingdom
_were equally free from dissension. He knew that the Hon.
nod Learned Gentleman did not wish this : what the Hon.
Learned Gentleman wished was ascendency ; but be ( Mr.
43' Con 11
eir ne ) sought for equality, and they were gaining on
M.
opponents every day.
L'imr- PLUNKETT made a few remarks; in reply to which,
ration PERRIN said that the great body of the Irish Corpo-
th Reports were upon the table of the House as soon as
e English,
Mr
RUTHVEN supported the Bill on the ground that
he wished to see equal justice done.
of r• GRATTAN was happy to find, from the declaration
the Noble Lord, that the measure would pass this session.
ZColonel PERCEVAL begged to protest against the dis-
saion and settlement of so important a question at so very
t• a period of the session, when very many members had re.
el;
ee d from the House without any intention of again returning
pt in the event of a call.
aMr. SHEIL said that the Hon. and Gallant Officer was
rrse correct in his allusion to the absence of so many Mem-
e e It was true that the House was nearly deserted. The
jttach
of the
party to which the Hon. and Gallant Officer was
ed was absent, and his absence was certainly significant.
Ul)wed that the Right Hon. individual fully felt the impos-
eddy of resisting this‘ proposal of reform.
Colonel SIBTHORP felt no doubt that on this question,
(18 on that of the reform of the Corporations of England, the
:taller Rause of Parliament, though often taunted as an Aris-
e civic body, would show the considerate feeling which they
reetertained for the rights of the lower classes of their country-
jere; and after the most able, and he would say, unparal-
eu speech lately delivered in that House—( Hear, hear, and
laughter).--.4 an Hon. and Learned Gentleman formerly,
tine h_
the British
lonel Sibth) rretted not now, a Member of
e Parliament firmlyb l• • d that the e•ood sense
of that H f • he e ieree
House feeling as they did for the people, and regard-
ig their petitions which had been spurned by the House he
was addressing, would Yet savethe corporations, unconvicted
end
uncontaminated—(lronical cheers, and laughter)—from
the designs and machinations of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and
rescue from annihilation those rights and privileges of the
!ewer ele.sses of the people, which ought, in his opinion, to be
int.aintained. Who, he would ask, had been more disposed to
..ut lip the liberties of the people, than those who bore the
earn, .
le of Liberals—but whom he called revoltitionists and,
!vellers--men having no feeling for Church, King, State,
ereat
People, or any thing which had hitherto made England a
nation.
in the Bill. The motion w agreed as thento, and leave given to bring
at Lore JOHN RUSSELL gave notice, that on Monday he
e °u`d move for leave to bring in a Bill to effect a further re-
Lord in the militia staff of Ireland.
Le CASE OF GENERAL DARLING.
dam, "ru JOHN RUSSELL also gave notice, that on Mon-
uPoa the a t ent of the Committee which had been
granted to • appointment m
Thatinquire into the con tic d tof General Darling, be
th 111°ye " That it be an instruction to the
eat m Committee
rosy the
t"ey do not extend their inquiry into, or take cognizance
dne
coui t-martial held upon Captain Robison in Sy
n, in 1824."
Air.
. \V ARBurtisoN hoped that those Members who had
ppmerted the motion for the Committee the other night, would
up ho la the decision to which they then came , • of which it was
ttoSt bl
the s a e portion, that there should be an inquiry into
tippet of that court-martial.
Lord SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
h h JOHN RUSSELL gave notice, " That on Monday
bye jecntid move a resolution expressive of the sense entertained
leteuce House of the services of Henry Seymour, Esq., the
pbae,eeei.e_at.. „
rms.
"—( Hear, hear.)
jeo
,I'ISHMENT OF OFFENCES IN IRELAND.
4. NT- moRPETH then rose to move for leave to bring in
kew for the better prevention, and for the speedier punish-
Teeri of offences endangering the public peace in Ireland.
fax ir" were glad to think that the state of Ireland was so
fie:roved, and was so far improving as to relieve them-
eornnatae necessity of proposing a continuance of the Act
the, °llly called the Coercion Act, while at the same time
to ••. could not flatter themselves that it was yet such as.
ieggive cause for dispensing with the propriety of retain-
same ?erne safeguard be and the ordinary reach of
.the law,
teeti 'l° Constitution, for the sole object of affording pra-
t rem"„ to the peaceable, unoffending, and helpless part of the
tts°reul-11tY• With respect, to the present state. of Ireland,
the egr;rded the commission of outrage and the maintenance of
tbe c,111)lie Peace, he certainly regretted to find, on comparing
that turns which were submitted of the number of outrages,
°hlitnere bad not been a decrease—indeed he was sorry to be
nuns t° admit that there. had been some increase in the total
total af outrages committed during the last year beyond the
that
istnatrnber of those committed during the year preceedritrfo—so
lepoateVaY, an increase of those reported in 18341.0dv
elapsed
'nth Pros 1833 ; and in the last three months that ,a.
3'ear, e "nt year over the corresponding period of the last
acne. ", ta he was most happy to state, as a strong counter-
e ewennistance, that those offences which might be classed
rillyrtdaleee
‘8" of a political or insurrectionary nature, had mat?-
the he 'creased; and also that there had been a decreasel in
ter, tuber of all offences of a more serious and violent ciarae-
to the indeeed a great portion of the increase might be referred.rs
Under seleau of common assaults—to riots committed at fai ,
Mine '"" influence, he had no doubt, of a too general use of
they ; but at the same time he was compelled to state, that
vie! ed been a frequently attended with circumstances of so
those:en
a exaggerated a nature, as to evince, on the part of
to whnd oco
mmitted tbem, a most lamentable recklessness as
ter(i'e value of human blood.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
the / th en proceeded to read extracts from the Reports of
TneseusPectors-General of the several provinces of Ireland.
tract pwere all the statements which he had been able to. ex-
end irom the charges of the judges at the present assizes,
tl eonjunctio•with the Reports of the Inspectors-general
n
the t °wed—not, indeed, that there had been a decaease in
4to °till amount of crime, but that the number of offences of
mail aggravated and formidable nature which formerly pre-
to tiel'.4 in Ireland had been-materially diminished ; and it was
melo 15 state of things that the Government had sought to
Th,l4,t the measure which they then submitted to the House.
measure was founded very much upon the Report of the
die'"lnittee appointed in 1832 to examine into the state of the
Urged "
truedistricts in Ireland, to which Committee the petition
ec Queen's County had been referred, and of which his right
tn• friend the Paymaster of the Forces ( Sir H. Parnell)
qti been chairman. The object of the Committee was two-
h constitute a competent tribunal for the enforcement
the
ordinary power of the law, and also for the prevention
le 10 nocternal outreges which at that period prevailed.
which tirsounce of the Report of that Committee, the Bill
he he should move for leave to introduce gave a power to
tieeii,aaolad-Lieutenant, cm, slue cause being shown, to appoint a
4:4 th andssembly of the court of quarter-sessions to which one
see, ing's sergeants or King's eennsel, was. to act as. asses-
tinttztis which. was to have the power Of adjourning in any
till t ',red district, from time to time, and Iwo place to place,
the La.quillity should be restored, and no leaser. At present
etisi ord-Lieutenant had it in his power to issue special com-
aane"uis ; for in these cases the Judges went down, gene-
when crime had considerably accumulated, and to de-
le gaols which
filled. The ob-
too amply
anon , were already _
tee
Re te that mode clearly stated in
of precedence was
, Thport of the Committee to which had alluded
s, remark, that although it is quite true that the ordinary
v egular la d uffieient to put down time
same% e. ws have been foun s
:;tised ,ItehoY Associations which have from time to time
has
ts equally true that in every instance every Asso•
qas bn has made itself complete master of the county where it
taiti,een lormned and committed all kinds of crimes and enor-
's with • nt • period before the en-
teen). impunity, for a consiactea
eut or the powers of the law bas preduccd a remedy ;
ll' while tl • • to a Epocial Com-
ie practice of having recourse ..
tioe of , as time means of carrying into effect a vigorous apjaheee
the • I • remedy which is had
aktr, rigeurs of the Jaw the solo
txen-e to, the same result will necessarily occur, because the
slot Se which etends the sending down oc a special commis-
atia
„,
for it to act
Ina difficulty of making out a Le•
t• lead to postpoaing the appointment a Pith.: a,.
''kratil'ne -after an illegal conspiracy has commenced tto
Preyed
,In point of fact, although the law has in general
pre, sufncienil strong and effectual for the ultimate sup
sku,
„, y
aff ." hitebov Associations, it has not Wen "effectual
th °Mine .
eta eahii,s Piotection to the public against being eepese,d to
Ie " and atrocities of those conspiracies for a consaler,
ist,w pert and
. ion. o t th 'r being completely repeessecla'
s Majesty's Government wero of opinion that tig!

—ass a

S2ecial Court of Quarter Sessions which they proposed to
eaapower the Lord Lieutenant to call together by the Bill,
hi a due case of ei-nergeney being shown to have arisen,
would do more towards the timely prevention of such offences
than the issuing of special commissions. He now came to
the second object—of preventing internal disturbances. The
Bill proposed to empower the Court of Quarter Sessions in
the representation of the Grand Jury—such Grand Jury being
taken from the special list of the jurors of the county—and
with the approbation of the Lord Lieutenant, to warn the in-
habitants of disturbed districts to keep within their houses,
and to authorise the magistrates and chief constables to visit
houses and require the male inhabitants to appear when sum-
moned. Persons not answering were to be deemed absent ;
but no power was given such as existed under the former
measure, to these functionaries of entering houses when they
chose ! Persons found absent were to be subjected to a cer-
tain punishment ; and on the second occasion to be subjected
to one more severe ; also, persons found abroad in the night
with unlawful arms in their possessions, to be subjected to the
punishment attached to a misdemeanour. These were the
provisions which it was proposed to incorporate in the intended
Bill. • They were, certainly, such as trenched en the. ordinary
practice of the Constitution rather more than a composed state
of things would warrant ; but looking to the urgency of the
case he trusted that they would not be deemed going farther
than was needed : above all, when it was borne in mind that it
would not apply to or affect any district for any period except
where and when that urgency prevailed. He should propose
to limit its duration-to the period of a
_very- few years. The
Noble Lord then moved far leave to bring in the Bill.

Mr. N. FITZ SIMON should be happy to join in passing a
Bill which should prevent the recurrence of those disturbances
which did occasionally take place in Ireland, in spite of the
existing law.
Colonel PERCIVAL asked the Noble Lord whether cer-
tain districts in Ireland were not at that very moment under
the operation of the Coercion Act? He wished also to in-
quire in reference to one of the statements read by the Noble
Lord which alluded' to an occurrence at Monaghan, whether
con,..n parties therein implicated had not been acquitted?
Lord- !;,..'")RPETH said that four of the Queen's County,
and a part of KiiLanny (we believe), were still under the ope-
ration of the Coercion _
A.ct. As to the second question, he
could could give no informatiO upon the subject of it.
Colonel PERCIVAL then ex
p;ssed his surprise that the
proposed alterations and modifications v; the Coercion Act
should be founded by his Majesty's Government ,:tp the extra-
ordinary ground of there having been an incre2Se Or crime in
the last pear over the preceding one.—( Hear.)
Mr. H. GR ATTAN said that it was impossible for his
Majesty's Government to allow things to go on as at present
in the north of Ireland, where there was not security either
for life or property.—( Hear, hear, and laughter from the
Opposition benches.) Let Hon. Gentlemen look back to the
transactions which had been only recently witnessed there, of
Orangemen parading at night through the country, and draw-
ing ropes across the road, and forcing all who came up to my
out before they passed, " To Hell with the Pope I"
Colonel PERCIVAL said that of such disturbances no one
in the House could be more anxious than himself that they
should be put down.
Mr. RUTH VEN said the great mischief of Ireland was,
that the Magistracy were tainted with party feeling.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought his Hon. Colleague was mis.
taken in supposing this Bill would not please anybody. In his
opinion it would please every rational being in Ireland. The
present Bill, if he had rightly understood it, directed the
meeting of the magistrates at sessions to deal with cases of
actual offences against the laws, and also authorized them to
keep those persons within doors who were found out at night
without being able to give a good account of themselves.
Whilst it gave protection where it was wanted, the Bill took
from no man the right of being tried by a jury. Its only in-
fringement upon public liberty was the power given, as he had
already observed, to deal with persons who went out by night,
having no lawful business to take them out—and if it should
be effectual in suppressing this most baneful practice, it would
have a most salutary operation, and produce the greatest be-
nefit in Ireland. He felt convinced that the Bill would work
well.—( Hear.)
Mr. S. CRAWFORD wished to see coercive measures for
Ireland accompanied by other measures, which would go to the
root of the evil. He thought that a system of Poor-Laws
ought to be extended to Ireland. Where the people suffered
from hunger crimes would be perpetrated.
Col. PERCIVAL explained.
Mr. FINN contended that all Ireland wanted was justice,
and justice demanded that the Orangemen should be put
down—that the police and the magistracy should be com-
pletely purged of them. How could it be expected that the
people of Ireland could have confidence in laws which were
administered by Orange Magistrates ? The greater part of
the police were Orangemen; the greater part of the magis-
tracy were Orangemen, and the whole of the yeomanry were
drawn from the same polluted source. In this state of things
it was not Coercive Bills that the people of Ireland wanted
but justice.—The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. PERRIN brought in the Municipal Corporations Re-
form Bill for Ireland. Read a first time, and ordered for se-
cond reading on Friday next.