The Sun.
London, England, 1832-05-22 00:00:00

beau the effect of elections in the metropolis. He begget'
their Lordship to reflect•whet would be the cnnsequenr•
in this vast town if these districts were to be enfranchised
Could they doubt that the respectable tradesman would
he outvoted by his journeymen, and that being solicited
by his customers and others (though under other circum-
stances he would not be disposed to vote as they did)
must submit to the situation in which he would b-
placed ? I❑ reference to the metropolitan elections, he de-
clared there had not been a free election for the city of
W,stminster for many year,. The admission of the me-
tropolitan district Members must only tend to lead to acts
sie violence in times of excitement. The Noble Lord then
objected to this proposition, because he did not see the
justness of its principle, and because lie considered its ope-
ration roust be detrimental to the ctiontry. Of this he
was quite sure, that Political Clubs and Unions in such
a cane wou'd tend to promote agitation, and lead
men to desire for still further changes. With regard
to the county of Middlesex, undoubtedly it would
have tern impossible to have objected to giving
it two more Members, because he conceived that
such an arrangement would have been most desirable.
lie believed that he had now touched upon every point, ex-
e.pt the ten•pound qualification clause. With respect to
this clause he and other Noble Louis had not thought
themselves precluded by the decision or opinion of the
other House of Parliament from suggesting some amend-
ment. Looking to towns in rural districts, it might
doubted whether it would be desirable to raise the qualifi-
cation. Again, he and other Noble Lords, while they
were not disposed to exclude even poverty frog, the exer-
gime of the elective franchise, yet wished that poverty
should be respectable. One thing they had deemed to be
essential, namely, that the residence of a voter should be
in the same place, and that he should not he a lodger in a
house. Ha did not wish to deal insidiously with the
nutter; he cared not for any clause stipulating that the
cent should be pid half-yearly. They had proposed only
to ascertain that a man enjoying the right of the franchise,
however poor he might be, should be respectable. Such
then was the plan which he and others suggested, not of
Reform, hut of amendments, a plan framed for the purpose
of making this Bill more safe and more conservative in
its; general operation. The Noble Lord went on to state
that he knew many of his Noble Friends were much asto-
nished at the extent to which be was willing to go. The
street of these amendments, by which the preservation of
tile established church and other desirable objects would
hive been secured, would have given not less than 136
votes to the G.nservatives. His opinion was that the
system proposed to be established by this Bill could not
stand without giving a more popular franchise than that
which was now proposed. He thought no representative
vs stem could stand the test of excluding the poorest
classes. The great advantage of the present system was,
that whilst it gave protection to property it extended
it likewise to poverty. And here he would give that
which was only his individual opinion, that it
might lie proper to provide i❑ some places for the
more popular franctii,e which now existed. He had
been greatly misunderstood the other night if it hail been
supposed that he had intended to propose any amendments,
or that he acted with the concurrence of others. He had
spoken his own individual opinion, but seeing the danger
that might arise from not preserving the more popular
franchise in certain cases, he would say it was a question
involving so much difficulty, that he had not yet brought
his mind to a decision upon it. With reference to the
state of the representation in Scotland, there was
an infinitely stronger ease there than had ever ex-
isted here. He should, however, look into the de-
tails of that proposed measure of Reform as he had
done in this, but the principle of that Bill was admitted.
.sot so, however, with the Irish Bill. Three months
iego he had said, and he would again repeat his assertion,
that as one of those individuals who had voted for the
paseieg of the Catholic Relief measure, be could not vote
tier it ; for he its advantages what they might, he thought
it dangerous in principle. He believed that many Noble
Lards opposite stood in the same position with himself.
They had done all in their power to carry that measure ;
hut they had also acquiesced in the other measure which
followed it as the price of that measure, well knowing
that it would have been impossible to have carried the
Roman Catholic Relief Bill unless accompanied by the
other measure of disfranchisement of the 40s. freebolde•rs.
They therefore stood engaged to protect the Protestant
people of Ireland, and from that pledge he, for his own
parr, would nut depart ; and until lie should find that
there was a desire on the part of the Protestant people,
Grit only of Ireland but of England also, that the Bill
should become law, he could not vote for it. He thought
it would be an act of gross fraud, and would be practising
an unworthy deception upon the people of Ireland if they
mould pass another measure to overturn all the conse-
quences of that measure to which he Lad alluded. Ti,e
then being his opinion, he said (and he spoke for others)
agar as a Member of Parliament, and as a member of that
Government which had advised the passing of that mei-
sure, and as a man of honour, he could not vote for the
Irish Reform Bill until he should be freed from the pledge
which he had given, by the declared desire of the Pro-
testant people of England and Ireland, for its adoption.—
The Noble Baron then made his motion, which we believe
to have been to the effect that the boroughs in schedule C
lie omitted, with a view to his proposing certain boroughs
in lieu thereof, giving to the House the opportunity of
discussing them seriatim.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, after a brief explanation
of the effect of the Noble Lord's Amendment, said, that lie
certainly agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) in pre •
ferring the clause as it was, so that the boroughs might
he voted one by one, giving an opportunity of discussing
t heir respective merits. He was prepared roost cheerfully
to meet the Noble Lord in his proposition for discussing
the measure in the Committee in a calm and temperate
taanner ; and, thersfore, avoiding all topics of irritation,
lie would, bethre entering upon that discussion, make only
one general observation, namely, that the friends of the
Bill could not be much blamed for not having been able
to discover in the late debate upon it, what were those
intentions of the Noble Lords opposite which had been
withheld from their knowledge until the division. That
was all he would say on that subject. He entirely agreed
with the Noble Baron that it was exceedingly desirable,
whatever plan of Reform might be adopted, that it should
be regarded as a final settlement of that question by Par-
liament and the country ; and as a consequence of that
agreement, that if it could be shown that any part of the
present Bill was not a final settlement, but sowed the seeds
of some future alteration, that part ought, if possible, to
he amended. Nut conceiving, however, that a final set-
tlement of the question was less precluded by the measure
:is it stood than by the proposition of the Noble Baron,
he was prepared to oppose the Noble Baron's proposition.
He could not conceive how the Noble Baron's proposition,
which did not proceed on any particular principle, such
se population, or wealth, or any other, but which merely
took a certain number of specified towns to which to give
the right of representation, was at all calculated to give a
better security for a final arrangement of the question
than that which existed in the Bill as it stood at pre•

vent. He could hot conceive how, on the principles
L,f the Noble Baron's proposition, if a town were to grow
from insignificance into importance, if it were to increase
from a population of 5,000 to a population of 25,000, or
from a place of small to a place of great trade, he could

not conceive how, on the Noble Baron's principles, and
because the Noble Baron chose not to refer to any such
considerations, it would be possible to exclude such a town
from, some twenty or thirty years hence, claiming a right
of representation. For the friends of the Bill did not say
as an abstract principle that a borough with a population
of 10,000 should return one Member, and a borough with
a copulation of 20,000 two Members; but that many
large towns, at present unrepresented, should have repre-
sentatives--drawing a line on the principle that a line
must he drawn somewhere. With respect to the obierva-
tion of the Nile Baron, that most of the boroughs in

s(iedu'e A, and all those in schedule B, might lie ren-

tiered fit for representation by adding neighbouring dis-
tricts, the effect of such a proceeding would be injuriously
to strip the county population. In Cornwall, for instance,
eleven or twelve boroughs in which were in schedule A,
and four in schedule B, the effect of the plan alluded to by
the Noble Baron would be most injuriously to diminish the
county population of Cornwall. The principle of the
measure was to get rid of great practical abuses, not to
ttike out a large part of the population of counties. Lie

. .
denied also the truth of the allegation, that in large towns
the UV. qualification would give a preponderance to the
journeymen and inferior classes over the more respee•able

portion of the inhabitants. Let them consider what would

be the cons quence of making the qualification 201. instead
of 10/. He mane an estimate with reference to eight or
ten towns in order to see how that matter would stand.

- -
In Sudbury, if the qualification were 20L, deducting
those persona who would be disqualified on various
grounds, there would only be about thirty-four voters,
even if they were all resident ; in Poole, only '75 ; in
Cockerniouth, only 29; in Harwich, only 45 ; in War-
wick, only 160 ; in Wigan, only 120 ; in Leeds, only
2,400; in Wolverhampton, only 700; in Birmingham,
only 1,800 or 1,900; and so with others. So far,
therefore, from the master-manufacturers and other

persons of opulence being overpowered by the jour-
otYmen and inferior classes, should the qualification
remain at 10/., the only danger was that too
many of the latter would be excluded. The Noble and
Learned Lord here entered into some further calculation.