The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-03 00:00:00

were found to exist in it, there was no place so fitting for re-
form to commence, as its purification would tend to draw to it
more closely the affections of the people. The Church of
Ireland necessarily presented itself first to their view, and
while it was admitted on all sides that abuses existed therein,
it was not fit that they should be perplexed with figures
when they had facts before them. If they would take the
clergy who had no congregations, and those who had, it
might be that there would not be more than 3001. a year
for each. But if they took away those who had no duties
to perform, how much would it enable them to pay ? How
much, if they were paid according to the services performed ?
The facts before them were such as justified legislation on
the subject. Let the House recollect that the Protestant
Establishment was at this time as great as it was to support
the clergy, when the Catholic religion was the religion of the
State, and when that was followed by the statement, that as
it was the Legislature first conferred it, so it was now in their
power to take it away, he had no fear that the public would
be led astray or mistaken, but they would be convinced that
the measures proposed were intended for the support, not the
destruction of the Church itself. That was the object of
the resolution before them, and unless Hon. Gentlemen were
prepared to assent to the motion, it would not be difficult to
show the country who were and who were not sincere in their
professions of Reform. The revenues of the Irish Church had
not produced all the beneficial effects which had been antici-
pated—the cause of Protestantism had not advanced by the
plan that had been hitherto adopted, and the question was how
would they now apply the surplus revenues of the Church ?
They had no objection to provide that the Clergyman, whose
spiritual care was required, should have the means of perform-
ing his duties amply and efficiently, and of devoting a
portion to that charity which was the peculiar characteristic
of a Christian Minister—they were not the advocates for any
strict allowance to those clergymen who had spiritual duties to
perform; but after these had been provided for, would the
British public be satisfied until they had ascertained the
amount of the surplus that remained ?—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. the Member for Cambridge had last night proved
to them pretty clearly that the education of the people was a
distinct charge upon the Church ; and he had been answered
by the Noble Lord opposite, that such appropriation had been
the act of a conqueror. From whom, he (Sergeant Wilde)
would ask, had the Church and its revenues been obtained?
The principle was not thus to be got rid of in a sentence.
All they sought for was to apply the surplus revenues of
the Church to the education of the people, without inquiring
what their religion might be ; and they could not be answered
by saying that that was the act of a conqueror. How had
the question been treated by the Right Rev. Prelates who had
been alluded to by the Noble Lord 1 No, they had not con-
sidered that such a proceeding would be an act of spoliation—
they felt that the Church had failed in its duty to the people,
and had kept its revenues in its pocket, instead of applying
them to the education of the people. Was not this principle
recognized in various Acts of the Legislature ; and had not in
various instances grants of surplus Church property been made,
after the wants of the Church had been supplied ?—( Hear.)
What was the cause of the lamentable state in which Ireland
at present was? Did it not originate in the ignorance of the
lower orders, and the influence of interested individuals acting
upon that ignorance ?_( Hear.) What would give the advo-
cates of Frotestantism the greatest chance of proselytism ?
Instructing the people of Ireland..--( Hear.) Much misre-
presentation had been used with respect to the arguments of
Hon. Members on his (Sergeant Wilde's) side of the House.
--m(Cheers.) It was necessary to refer to the grievances
which had been inflicted upon Ireland to account for the posi-
tion in which she was at present placed. A church had been
imposed upon her, to the doctrines of which the majority
of the people of that country were opposed, and who re-
garded it as a mark of degradation. What followed? Under
pretence of advancing the interests of religion, a series of the
most cruel persecutions had been inflicted upon the people.
—( Cheers.) He was not seeking to bring discredit upon
that Church, nor did he feel that there would be any advan-
tage in calling the attention of the House to the scandalous
barbarities and injustices that had been practised there under
the pretence of promoting the Protestant religion. What was
the Church of Ireland but a monument of persecutions and in-
justices ?—( Hear, hear.) What did they desire?—that it
should no longer possess that character--that it should be no
longer hostile to the feelings of the Catholics of that country
—( Hear, hear)—.that they .should correct their former
errors—that they should propitiate and strengthen the
Protestant Church there—not that they should confer a benefit
upon the Catholics, but that they should do what was benefi-
cial to the Protestant Establishment. If they wished to pro-
mote the interests of that Church and extend its doctrines,
what could put them in the way of doing so more effectually
than to educate the people? From the feeling which it was
well-known existed between Protestants and Catholics need
he refer to the beneficial effects of having them educated to-
gether. They were all aware of the good effects of bring-
ing up children at school together, and no Roman Ca-
tholic child could be ill-affected towards a Church
to which it was indebted for the education it had received.

He thought that the ardour and vigour of the opposition given
to the proposition of the Noble Lord was much enhanced by
the fear of a large surplus, and that if it were not to cost
them nothing, they would not fight so hard for it.—( Cheers. )
When he looked back at all the speeches that had been made
upon the question, he was bound to say that in his conscience
he believed that all the strength of argument was on their
side. No man could urge that Church property was inaliena-
ble who had ever given the question the least thought.—
( Cheers.) It had been said, " You must not grant this, for
it is only the first of a series of demands." There was no
doubt but it was the first of a series, but who was to judge of
the next? Was it the Catholics of Ireland? No. It
it was the British Parliament who were to decide upon
the case whatever it might be, and it would depend upon the
character of the demand whether it would be granted or not.
If they asked anything that was inconsistent with the mainte-
nance of the Protestant Establishment, or dangerous to the
interests of the country, it would be refused. But because
that such demands might be made. was it just to refuse that
one ?—( Cheers.) What statesman, he would ask, had ever
said--" Tell me what you are going to ask next, and then I
will decide upon your present demand ? "—( Cheers.) Such
had been the conduct of the parties opposite in former times ;
and what was it gave rise to the demand which carried the
Catholic Bill and the Reform Bill, but the wild and unstates-
man-like conduct of the Honourable Gentleman opposite ?
—Great cheering.) They were pursuing the same course
now; and he prophecied that if they carried their opinions
on that question, the result would be the same as on former
ones. The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) had likened
the question to a wedge. What was the Reform Bill but a
wedge ? it was passed for the purpose of placing a wedge
in the hands of the people of England. Another argument
used by the opposite side was to call those on his side of the
House Destructives. Destructives I—what should they wish
for a destruction of property for?--they were possessed of
some. They had prospered under the British Government,
and had received their instruction from the Church, and were
attached do its principles. He disclaimed the imputation so
far as regarded himself, and threw it back with scorn. He
trusted that would only be the first of a series, and that the
next demand on the part of the people would be one which
the country had as much right to expect to have
granted as that one.—( Cheers.) The same arguments as
were now put forward were used in opposition to the Catholic
question. The Hon. Gentleman opposite said then, " that
question once settled in your favour, you will come for more."
But what was the consequence ? The people gathered fresh
strength, and made the demands in such a manner that the
very same Hon. Gentlemen were obliged to come down
and grant that which before they so strenuously opposed.
To them he would say—" If you refuse this boon the character
of your Government is stamped by your refusal ; you say, in
fact, to the country—We refuse all those practical reforms
which you have been taught to expect from us."--( Hear. )
But where would be their sense of fairness ? He agreed with
certain Gentlemen in that House, although he was of no party,
yet he was ready to support any measures which were likely to
benefit the people. He had no vow, no alliance, no partiality,
to any particular Government, but to that which would best
promote the interests of the nation ; and if he found the Go-
vernment of the Right Hon. Baronet to be of that character,
he would certainly soon take his seat on the other side of
the House, but he could not believe or hope for such a
prospect.—( Cheers.) Much had been said about inde-
cision and difference of opinion amongst those who supported
the resolution ; but if he agreed with certain Gentlemen on this
question up to a certain extent, where would be the absurdity
of his voting with them ?-.4 Hear, hear.) Reform of the
Church was the point at which he aimed, and the point to
which they went, but beyond that they might travel by them-
selves.—( Hear.) The Y Hon. Gentlemen opposite amused
themselves, as though they were all agreed—( Cheers and
laughter)—they amused themselves with stating that one
Right Hon. Gentleman had said something in favor of the Re-
peal of the Union, and another something else; but he was happy
to act in concurrence with them as far as what they professed and
supported what was calculated to benefit the country, and no fur-
ther. Why should this question be considered in referenc to
some ultra opinions on other points of some Hon. Members ?
Let the arguments be looked at in reference to the particular
measure now proposed, and where was the inconsistency of
doing so ? Was not the inconsistency on the other side ?
For, why were the public to be deluded by statements
that all the Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House
were agreed to attack and destroy the Protestant Church,
when in fact they were only asking to render it more substan-
tial, beautiful, and efficient I The arguments of the gentlemen
on the other side were not founded on their own opinions, but
upon those of others, and the general character of some who
opposed them. That was unjust both to themselves-,those
Hon. Gentlemen and the Church which they professed to sup-
port.—( Cheers.) He trusted he should have some arguments
to shew that it was not consistent to educate the child
without enquiring into the religion of the parent.—( Hear.)
It was proposed temporarily to apply the surplus revenue of
the Church to the purposes of education, thus returning it
to its proper and original channel, though it would flow with
tenfold benefit to that very Church, and deprive the Catholic
Church of that advantage which had given prosperity to every
Church, and even to our own Church—namely, persecution.
Let the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite state their objections,
and not treat him and the question with ridicule, by saying
that they would decide upon the question at a future time,
but merely content themselves with speculations at present as
to some unknown series of substantial Reforms. He trusted
this would be the first of the series—(hear, hear)—and he ap-
pealed to them, by the love which they bore to the Church,
and their sense of duty towards it, and by their regard for those
who were now Catholics, but whom he hoped some day would
become Protestant, to allow this Reform to take its course, and
to seek to perpetuate the Church by passing this resolution.
Mr. G 0 ULB UR N was aware that at that late period of
the discussion he could not offer much to command the atten-
tion of the House, or that the House would be willing to at-
tend to any arguments upon points that had been so long under

•
discussion. He was sensible of the disadvantages under w) 1.,
he laboured in offering hawelf to the House, ml t•`'`' , 0'
hand, he had at that late period of the debate great Oval':
tages—for, in common with the House ; he was in leesest
sion of the views of those different parties who support
the motion, as announced in the speeches they had luau%
He had before him not only the motion, guarded as it was td
its terms, and framed by the Noble mover—necessarily frame
with a view to combine the greatest possible amount Of sup
port in favour of the motion—(Hear, hear)—but theY had
learned from the speeches of the Honourable Gentlemen
who support the resolution, much more distinctly the"
from the resolution itself, ;the object which they eepeee,
ed to derive from the resolution, and what were to
its final results.—( Hear.) They had not only the speeches °f
Hon. Gentlemen, but they had what was, perhaps, more sign
nificant, the silence of others from whom they might expect
indication of opinion.—( Loud cries of " Hear.") He had no
doubt but that silence indicated as strongly on the otl
side what were the feelings of those by whom it was ob-
served, as the speeches of the other parties showed what weri,
their feelings. The Honourable and Learned Gentlernat
who had just sat down taxed those who were oPPcsed
him with a determination to resist the reform of a„,
abuses, and in applying that argument to the euesti"b
before the House, had assumed that as the Irish Chore,
was, in his opinion, a sinecure Church, if the G°vToerl,e
ment did not consent to adopt the proposition of the IN ,erl
Lord, which was not:to reform but to destroy, that, therefore
they were not Reformers. He (Mr. G.) denied that prop.os;
tion. He denied it on the part of the Government, arid 0t
his own part. He would say, that the Irish Church did
answer the terms of a sinecure Church—that heavy and b_
portant duties were discharged by the Ministers of that Chare,'
—( Hear, hear, hear)—and that those duties were not to
u
estimated by the number of those who professsed the..ie
re-
ligion of the Church of England, but by the difficult.)
that obstructed the execution of those duties.—( Cheelislae
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Cambridge, _0
produced thirteen instances of parishes in which there were,
resident Protestants • but even supposing that out of the extea sa:
of the Church of Ireland, there were ten or twelve such f;
rishes, did that justify them in denouncing the whole e',
blishenent as a sinecure? He did know the particular circtlol
..
stances of those parishes, but he thought he could aff re;
exelanation of those circumstances, and prove that ee;
absence of individual Protestants in those parishes awee,„
not from the failure in the discharge of their 0;y
ties on the part of the clergy, or that there was aof
thiug to which they could really attach the narnei,oo
sinecure.—( Hear, hear.) He had been always angel,
to remedy the abuses of the Establishment, but it va,
impossible to do so without maintaining its revenues•
sv."o
was confident that those parishes form part of Unions. always
not new to the House nor to the country that he had erldc%,
denounced the system of Unions of Parishes, and he ha„l
tended to bring forward a measure for the dissolution of Urneoea
He was not a Reformer in the sense of the Hon. and Lear,e,
Gentleman ( Sergeant Wilde). He was anxious not tile
,troy, but to reform. He would therefore say that the pans
in question must have formed parts of Unions, and it
very obvious that where a great many parishes wti`oo
united to form a benefice, the Protestant pop 10
was necessarily drawn to that part of the Unite/rote
which the Clergyman's house was situated. lf, there ;:ch
they drew from those parishes the Protestant population l.osislh,
necessarily belonged to them, and got them all into one Par
he put it to Hon. Gentlemen whether those parishes wer:tab,
be taken as instances of the general character of the 5• hot
lished Church of Ireland ? He was quite confident, 'wit di,
reference to any documents, that those were 'the tee
cumstances upon which the Right Honourable GePot,
man (Mr. Spring Rice) had founded his arganto
What was the way in which sinecures were dealt with ? r the
if there was an office, which by misconduct on the parte*eoe
owner had become a sinecure, and yet was a nee:essarY °floe
provision was made for making that office efficient for the ;
poses for which it was instituted—that course. was °LILO
system of reform than of abolishing it altoget'ner. " but
say, apply that principle to the Church—reform all abusea're)
do not destroy the Church itself—( Hear, hear, and clle:bsso
That was the mode in which he would reform „earl
abuses to which the Honourable and Learned Getit'eoli'
had alluded. If there was an instance in which the /00
gious duties had been neglected, whether by thepolir
of the incumbent—whether by the previous crimes of Abe
ment—or whether by the neglect of former Govern metres
peer
would say it was the duty of the House, in the first instestO
to redress those abuses. But if the resolution. of
Lord was adopted by the House, they would offecttla'eitillf
capacitate the Government and the Legislature froma be
the Church on the footing required. Moreover, in the cleobjell
took of it, they would violate the sacred pfinciples sub'
the Established Church in Ireland was founded, to t'ie sslr
serviency of the establishment itself. W'nat did the ens
tion of the Noble Lord profess to accomplish ? It eastta:f the
the first place that there was a surplus of the reverlirsepoor:
Irish Church, after having provided for the soirituao Pe"ed '"
that were required. He said the resolution 0:90leiteollt
because it was impossible to advert to the deiee.te,
il' ° lie°'
observing that no Honourable Gentleman who had :splll
had specifically assured the House that there was; vaY leter
They had had statements from those who were best Lela
upon these subjects, that the present income was:, -not aue:l.o,eir
to the Establishment in its present form, still ess to the ale
tenarice of that improved state which they were now gr:Ppfe
ing. They had statements to show that th e fund's /IV
sufficient to provide for those objects whic' p Pariliameefl,
~
already pointed out.—( Hear, hear.) The ~pect,atiorla 0001
Catholic population had been raised, that they ale r°
benefit by a surplus that was to be creested ,ut 0' tae'
venues of the Church.....( Hear, hoar.) 'rhe co, Lase elft"ef tr
sure must be taken to be this—to sP.tisfy the clergYh led
ea
Established Church out of the pittence that Might sse/
after providing for other purposes. That was 'the treeeeerel
of the destructive nature of this resolution. -It eXclten"bserl
which it was impossible ever to realize. 'He had ;104
with delight, in the course of that discuss ion, that "„,,"
of the Established Church which was in Ire) And was ee,"-eire.;')
an object of attachment and veneration by those who
acknowledged Members of the Church of Engiand.^, to 1,
But the Hon. and Learned Member was •-mistaken
meeting which was held in support of the :Protestant
It consisted of Presbyterians, as well as of Protestants'e pre;
was held in the midst of a Presbyterian (sou ntry. Iltesebroi
byterians were desirous to maintain the I 'rotestant 005 C
not as the representatives of their adhereno e to the deco lt.
the Church of England, but because they looked trPosiel'dhe
the bulwark of Protestantism, which their .duty and ,
pe
alike compel them to respect. Because Fes a saw he I„""eelr'e
tion proposed by the Noble Lord the first is vasion t ciOde
by which the doctrines of the Church Es tablisicelea
propagated, he would oppose it.---( Hear, hear, beg rites 1";
Honourable and Learned Gentleman (1 Wilde)' cbsitche
us that he had no objection to the alienation 0104
property to any other objects than those conneeteweee (s
Established Church. It would be Ares' amption 'se
~e'ori
Goulburn) to differ from a lawyer of such erairldeirof
legal question, but when he heard the ergume let be ti
in support of his opinion, he (Mr. Goi dburn) Was
its futility. He (Mr. W.) had said. that =in thleseerAle
Henry the Bth, he seized upon the mr snasterii 3s, annisisater
possessions to enlarge the income of pri vale intro tes,
All considered that act as a violat.eon of pre pert
etefo'rti.
whether their opinions may be on the proper ty.of Ploteee
tion which followed. It was a violent abstra coon'le,d
and it was most disgraceful, the conferring. it ueee °lite°
Can any man who so considers that act 1 low agriyetfesol,
is a fair ground for the invasion of the proper t• y of the „to Toct•
Church ? Were they to go back to the tit 3CS of rif,-4co; le
and to act upon the principles which go verned
and learn from his arbitrary acts how t hey c'ug",seree;ol
legislate ? If that was a great act of se fso
s,Ol
justified in pursuing a similar course after a lapse °I, one l
years ? What had they not to anticipate, if after or'dors
pie, they proceeded to divert Church prop erty from l3at'tifill
purpose? And what had they not to ex p, let after n° the
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the C urch ,',,,
to this property, as it was originally in tl, posse=elseitsee
Roman Catholicsasked was it not justa
tclhlic'llje
it *from the Protestants and restore it to the Crtet
( Hear.) He ( Mr. G.) concurred in the arg°lll- Kill the
Solicitor-General, and was of opinion ti ,at th'sose
devolved on the Established Church withosx t refer, I°° l' t'ito°
circumstances connected with its transfer. f theY rite; elo
times when this property was conferred o e the dtbo!ol
Church of England and Ireland, they ,ec add fin
toedrelloe
greater part of these donations was made the
• when - tette
had become purer than it was before. Ile ebieecetedj,
resolution—first, because that a surplus •es venue c-orprh.
next, because it proposed to admini sts •r the ieel',ol4
a way contrary to that for which it was °el.
tended....( Hear, hear.) Besides, t ;Ile indefinite
of the declaration is full of danger, and while .115 e; I,
a principle for which he contended, non sely, the illoe.jeltb°
Church property—it would tend to defer the profess °ce rieee
the resolution, which was the restora dem of tohnie
tPheelle;e/ ortrthi
country. That will be the conseq' ,;'-
tions which such a resolution would ,
had another objection to it, as it I 'reposed to Inca C ecfi
of a private nature, and therefore
connost naturally c:e3.,t„ haCe
ie
property, but what was of equal
character. It was well knoeen that
otopfarrfromoansmpoi
npemtgrr
htievytohafs
rwteeieehpnci
parishes
rhai
osr chfa
Protestanteceh character,
esttr
hw. under,eocumlilefder
agsttn:th,
asmeet
eet nhNnhae:omy:he,l
ecaeohetcityvfnheuLi
paal esYtodrhi
erveredPsodetne°:dpni
the
tsiartti lbgpi
osaose hat of Cs
Pl:t: eael
d
culty and danger attending private property.—(b fleaeli; teib°lll),ls
It might be said that the Noble Lord made eat; te,
the advowsons. Could that be called a reform ill tc,,
when it would have the effect of leaving some cleeelln— j
I full possession of the emoluments of these livings, al': a be, 00
priate that of others to different purposes ? Could sue "Wr';tp
intention of the Noble Lord?—he should think net', dice Pd
that allay the feeling of irritation that had been s reel'
much of, of the peasantry of Ireland ? It would hay .de dhad
different effect. It would arm them against thel.lB'pe, sloe(
terest of the country. It had been said, that Par t o ecorti
the perfect right to apply the property of the Churl t bloo
purposes. That argument had been used by al? it)'
support
urps
rcidst hhtoeuofdr
able Member for Nottingham, who, as an „.ethor della h°
ish
adverted to Blackstone, who stated the+b -cOlf
cthile
w othersCle hpwr
eut,iraracppnhopd:l
eiwestadhosetfrtohtehfocoetrhipteetriNt
:h. i • s cif".
reenceleer° L,.! se rthte,
If the )
.110'0,0_4
urposes t dto )sil OOP'
sianmhe
ipsroi
opinion
thev ulqd
uneosttiaopnpy
tb°: EnPgrleisPhacree 11' :cthi.e hirer
Church of Ireland, buy not only
tea t
They had been told by t,- those of the Chum. bat ,or
dulvd personathir ,e Hon. Gentleman opposite L. it4:lleC'e'o
of individual Iv/
himself; but he dir' -8. No one deprecated personal " tooa pr
It
involved C ill
lured, that ha'' iiiviilertinsinittraeantetpeialrinzaleiedtnytistn.oo:T:heer: ,11.1"°11'‘
t.
aentroest
Government