The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-06 00:00:00

would interfere with the duties of a Chrigtian elergynta

:o be at a remote distance from hi■ parish.

Hag it eve

curred to you, that by a'lnwina the principal tithe-nay,
ro appropi fate small portions of I ur-I, an then bringin
•hose portions together, that difficulty miLtht he so,

mounted ? I have bestowed some attention to it, and I
•-annot view it but as a very confused plan. Have you cmt
idered it all to come to any filial conclusion ?—No no•
all ; nor do I think myself competent to give an answer that
eliould he thought satis'actory. Would not the objection
tnak-ng the der •yman a farmer be obviated by having ai
ecclesiastical coil et the fund,
ism' pay them over to the clergyman ?—lt might be -n. hu
it strikes mess a system of complication which would nat
be productive of good. lam afraid •hat the same re line
which now prevails with respect to tithes would grade-
ally become operative, even upon tenants to such proper
firs." He should only advert to two more topics intro-
duced by the Irish Secretary. The Hon. Gentleman.
the ronclueion of his speed!, had said, that hereafter Ca-
tholics might be ralieved from Church cuss. flerea'ter '
Was it not a melancholy policy to delay what was just,
and to press and precipitate what was mo=t inexpedient,
and at the same time most wrongful ? Was not this a
most strange mode of proceeding. It was admitted that
the Church rate levied on Cathelies for the purchase t:f
the sacramental bread and wine, was most obnoxious
and grievous—the abolition of this tax was left to some
vague futurity, and at this mom nt the Government
strain every nerve to tarty a series of measures which
would he repudiated and spurned by the Fish people.
The last observation of the Secretary for Ireland was,
that his opinions on church property were unchanged—
it never could be diverted from its present channel of ap-
propriation. This announcement was m ide to Irel and by
the Minister to whom her fortunes and ride are confided
As the Hen. G intletnan had introduced the subject, it
became imperative to tell him that Ire! .nd stool I sue him
and the Gavernment to abandon this position. Here
was the gist, and essence, and hinge of the entire
case. They must strip the Established Church of its su-
perfluities. He should not expatiate on this subject, hut
again appeal to evidence. His first witness should be Mr.
D lacourt, a Protestant (for he should only appeal to Pro-
testant evidence on Catholic feeling)—a man closely liked
with the Church, the tenant of a Bishop, the son of a
clergyman, and married to a clergyman's d aighter. What
did he say ? Here was th, evidence :—" Are the Coln •
mittee to un 'erstand you to state, that it is the general
opinion of Protestants, as well as Cathelics, in Irel moil,
that after plying the incomes of the present incumbents,
tie amount of tithes should he under a different approprie-
tion?—l have scarcely heard any difference of opinion
upon that subject even among the Protestant clergy. D.)
you mean there should be an appropriation to any other
purpose ?—That is a question upon which I have con-
versed very little with any beady ; my private opinion is,
that there :nay be such a revenue as would amply provide
for the Protestant Estahlishment, and also a residue that
would be fait lv and justly applicable to other purposes.
Upon the whole area of Ireland a revenue of 3s. an acre
would produce 2,000,000/. of money ; I think that
would be more than would he necessary to cover the Ec-
clesiastical revenues and the local taxation of the country."
Tse next witness was Mr. Wright, a Protestant, and em-
ploye:l as a Cammissioner under the Tithe Composition
Act —" You mentioued that you thoueht it impossible
to collect the tit, es, or tithe composition, under the present
system, and that you would recommend some other way ;
will you be so good as to state what that is ?—I certainly
would abolish the. tithes, I think, altogether, both those
that are under the Con position Act, and those that have
been under the clergyman's valuation, that have not been
compounded ; I would sweep them all away, and I would
then legislate in the matter of tithes, and I would give the
clergyman what I thought was a wholesome provision; and I
would make them come into terms. What occurred to
me is this—there ate a great many church lands and see
lands, that I think might be appropriated to the use of the
payment of tithes; I would from this form a fund ; I
would lessen the number of Bishops ; I would then, when
this was done, levy a tax—suppose a property tax, and let
every man on the esta e hear lie portion of it; for I think
anything else coming forward will be. still considered and
deemed as a tithe, and will be viewed in that way ; and I
would hold that out to the people, and say, Here is a law
for your benefit;' and if they do not accede to it, let them
abide the consequences." The next witness was Sir W.
Carnal, a gentleman of large fortune and high considera-
tion. "If the landlords, its fact. were to take the tax
upon themselves and share the burden with the people, is
it your opinion that that would he a substantial redress of
the evil ?—lt is not my opinion now ; I think the time
has gone by, and I think we have lost the tide in the affairs
of tubes There has been a tide in the affairs of tithes,
which, if it had been taken its time, wool I have fed to
tranquillity ; but, like all other legialatien in Ireland, we
have precrastintteds What remedy would you suggest
for the evil now ? I would give the people an educa
tom founded especially on general religious and moral
principles, and I would assimilate the proportion ot
labourers in the vineyard of the Iris., Protestant
Church tc that in England, considering their relative
Protestant population. The labourer ie, however, worthy
of his hire ; and I would have those who are
now employed receive their present income during their
lives; but as I think the vineyard is overstocked in pre-
portion to E gland, as the incumbents shall die off, 'hey
should not he replaced until the establishment is soffie
ciently reduced tat allelel a surplus fund, by whice church
lands in general might be purchased up, and consequently
the renewal fines he done away with. Thus a fund would
be left in the hands& Government, sufficienttopay a cum-
petent estaleishinent of Protestant clergy, to increase the
salaries of the juniors, who I eonsider are greatly under-
paid at present, and also to eff•ct (a consummation tie--
stoutly to he wished) the affirding a certain annual in-
cotne, or a cernfertahle habitation, with land to ti,e clergy
of the other persuasion; thus giving them a stake in tie
county, toil doing away with a total dependence for sup-
port on the contribution's from their flacks. In fact, the
shade of religious difference between the latter and the
Protestant Church, is not very great, and would be still
less if exempted from the feelings and prejudices of party,
which fan anti keep alive antipathies as unnatuitil between
Christians, as detrimental to the prosperity of Irel Intl."
Now he beeged the House to hear a Protestant Dean,
Dean Blakeley—" Your idea is, that the church is to
give up all security whatever, and to depend upon the Go-
vernment for the payment of its income, and that that
security is not to be based upon but laid upon the seceri y
of the Government?--What I men to say is simply thin,
that the present incumbents of benefices, and the present
owners of bishoprics, are not in any way to be interered
with, save and except with their own voluntary stahmiseion,
but I do ceneeive• that the Legislature have a right tit devise
a prospective pin whereby all men in the country shall be
amenable to it. If my Deanery became vacant to. mor-
row, the Crown has the diet:meal of it ; who can sty lie is
injured by it if the Legislature were to impose a new mode
ot maintaining them, and a new division of their labours."
This was the language of a Protestant Dean. Now be
requested the House to listen to the head of the presbytery
of li eland. It woi common for men to talk of the "Pro-
testants of Ireland," as all united in defending the
revenues of the Establishment, and the House was often
told that the millions of Irish Presbyterians were devoted
to it. The committee have examined but ore Presbyte-
rian, a person of the highest intelligence and worth, who
was once moderator of the beady of which he was the or-
nament. Let the House hear him—" Are you a Presby-
terian Minister in the Church of Ireland?--I am. Can
you state to the Coitimittee what are the feelings of the
Presbyterians in general with respect to the payment of
tithe, considered first as a tax affecting land, and next in
the light of a religious payment to a Church from which
they dissent? So far as I knew the views of the Piesby
trrians upon that eulaject—and I think Lknew them pretty
extensively—they are all, or ne trly al , opposed to the
pay ment of tithes. Do they object to it as a tax affecting
the advance of agriculture, or as Dissenters from the
Established Church ?—They obj.ct to it on a great many
grounds —Will you have the goodness to state them
They object to the tax b cause they conceive, in the first in-
stance, that its amount is greatly dieproportioned even wLere
there are 'episcopal protestants, te the service rendered by the
clergy of the Established Church. In many cases, they
object to the positive amount, considering that it is a heavy
tax upon their capital and upon their industry. What are
the views they entert.in of tithe as a contribution to a
Church from which they dissent ? They consider it, as
in itse:f, an unjust imposition ; Ispeak as to my concep-
tion of their general feelings and views. 1 think the great
body of Dissenters of all denominations, Catholics and
others, squally look upon it as unjust in its own nature.
They consider, that the very idea of payment is connected
with servic• performed, and they therefore think, that
where there is no service rendered they have no right to
pay." Such was the language of a man holding a most emi-
nent pl ice in his body, and commanding the respect of
Irelan t, and with the evidence before him, the Irish Se-
cretary told the House that the Church property was to
remain untouched. Vain and preposterous hope ! The
Irish millions—Catholic, Presbyterian, aed Protestant—
would disabuse him of his error when that error may be
lamented, but cannot be repaired. And what did he a
few days ago utter in that House? In speaking of the
evils ot delaying Reform, he asked whe•her, if the To-
lalon
by this observation. The
adopted
measures to correct the
would be in such a beue,aeWs !toefn ithepcohwueir;
h,h.
producedal, Ireai
condi-
tion. Surprise was