The Sun.
London, England, 1835-02-26 00:00:00

purpose ; and was it hot strange that that very Attorney-General to
whom he (Mr. G.) had alluded, had now come forward, and, at the public
meetings of Orangemen, was found attacking the Whigs, supporting
and eulogizing the Tories, and using every effort in his power
to restore the domination of Orange ascendancy P—(Cheers.)
If they still continued to govern Ireland on the same principles,
they would beyond all doubt lose the affections of the people
of that country, of all lovers of liberty, and of those especially who were
sincere adherents of the present connection ; for the house might rely
upon it that, the present connection could not be maintained
unless on a footing of perfect equality and in the enjoyment of the
same privileges which Englishmen have. Certain documents
had been referred to by the hon. baronet (Sir 11. Peel) last night.
Documents of a similar description (the letters of Mr. O'Connell) were
the means of procuring hon. and learned members of that house the si-
tuation of judges—but all those letters were not read. The hon. bart.
did not read all of the letter he had referred to. He (Mr. O'C.) called
upon the Whigs not to appoint Orange Attorneys-General or Orange
Judges. All he (Mr. O'C.) asked was justice for Ireland, as the English
demanded it at Runnymede, and ha (Mr. O'C.) would not be refused it
to the people of that country.
Colonel PERCEVAL said he was most desirous to have remained
silent during the present debate, as he conceived it better not to
stand in the way of men more competent to deal with the sub-
ject, and especially as he was anxious to know whether those
attacks which were made against him personally from the oppo-
site side, were of such importance as to deserve a reply from him.
Last night he was accused by an hon. member on the other side, that he
was a sworn Orangeman. He did not deny that he belonged to that
association, but it being a loyal one, there were no secrets except
except the signs of recognition.—(Cheers and laughter.) Secrecy was
not essential to the spirit of the association. The rules and regula-
tions were published, and the hon. and learned member for Dublin in
the last Parliament had told him that be had got them.
Mr. O'CONNELL.—I never said so.
Colonel PERCEVAL resumed.—He would say that the hon. and
learned member did : however he would say that the association of
Orangemen was a loyal one ; being so they never administered an
oath. He had been attacked by the honourable and learned member,
for Tipperary because he was an Orangeman. He was also attacked by
the lion. and learned member for Meath, who stated that the principles
of that association were for the extermination of Catholics. He denied
that to be the case; one of the fundamental principles was not to insult
nor persecute any individual on account of his religious belief—(hear,
hear, and laughter from the opposition.) Nor was there to be any dif-
ference made on account of religion, but, on the contrary, the hand
of good fellowship should be stretched in neighbourly benevolence
to all mankind.—(Laughter from the Opposition.) Hon. and learned
members might laugh, but he could say that those were the princi-
ples under which this association was governed. His right hon.
friend had been severely attacked, because he had recommended him
to his Majesty for the situation of Treasurer of the Ordnance, and the
objection only appeared to be, because he was an Orangeman : how con..
sistent was the hon. and learned gentlemen, the member for Tipperary, to
complain of such an appointment—when one of the charges against the
administration was, that they never appointed an Irishman to office;
and now that one Irishman was appointed to an humble office, it was
still a greater ground of complaint. The Orangemen of Ireland
have been charged with being incendiaries, and the hon. member for
Tipperary had sta,ed that the houses of Catholics were burned in the
North by Orangemen. But he heard quite a difnrent story, which he
was convinced was correct.—(Loud cheers.) It was quite the contrary,

Catholics enjoyed the greatest protection, anci when differences occurred
between them, they uniformly referred it to Protestant,, and if theywould
only inquire they would find it to be the fact, if the present Govern-
ment was not to be like the late, and submit to the dictates
of the hon. and learned member for Dublin.—(Hear, hear.)
He would vote for the address, because he considered that any vote
would endanger the safety of the country, which might have the effect
of ejecting the present ministry. If that ministry were ejected, there
would, as the Whigs alone were out of the question, remain nothing
but a junction of the Whigs with the Radicals, and then the country
must expect all the measures of the Radical school.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose, but in consequence of the great
noise occasioned by the rush of members from the bar of the House,
where they bad been standing a great part of the evening, we could
not distinctly hear the first few sentences which the noble lord said.
The noble lord said—Sir, I shall state broadly and distinctly my reason

for voting for the amendment of my noble friend the member for the
West Riding of Yorkshire. I think it my duty, as a member of the
House of Commons, to provide, as far as I can by my vote,
that the reforms which may be proposed, and which are to be ap-
proved of by the House of Commons, shall not be less efficient,
shall not be less certain, and shall- not be evasive of such
reforms as the Administration of Lord Melbourne would have
proposed for the consideration and approbation of Parliament. —(Hear,
hear, hear.) Sir, it is for this reason that I am glad my
noble friend has proposed all amendment embracing a variety of
principles upon the subject of municipal corporations, embracing
a declaration that we will give relief to all the well.founded grievances
of the Protestant Dissenters—(hear, hear, hear) and above all
touching upon that point, which seems to be carefully avoided
in this long and elaborate speech, I mean the abuses in the Church
of Ireland. Well, Sir, I say then, let the House of Commons, if they
mean to maintain reform at the same place at which it was left at the
end of the last session ; if they mean to say that the exercise of the pre-
rogative which removes one administration and appoints another, and that
the exercise of the prerogative which dissolves one House of Commons

and calls another, shall not deprive the people of those reforms which
the late ministry, and the late House of Commons would have effected,
I say, let them speak in clear language, and let them add to the re.
forms which the ministers of the Crown propose, those reforms which
my noble friend has inserted in the amendment.—(Hear, hear.)
The hon. and learned member for Knaresborough was afraid of the con-
sequences of this proceeding, which he seemed to think somewhat too
bold and direct, he feared ; and that if it was carried into
effect, the right hon. gentleman opposite and the Secretary for the Home
department who had expressed his horror of the contamination of dis-
senters, would resign their seats.—(Loud bursts of laughter.)—
He feared that if the Corporations were reformed, and that the people
could exercise a vigilant controul over them, the Lord Chancellor—
who is said to have held that our whole inquiry was illegal—(Loud cries
of " hear," and laughter)—and that the present Government is pledged
to nothing more than to lay the reports and evidence upon the table
of the House of Commons—if we speak the language of dissent,
nit the present occasion—if we speak that language which my noble
friend the member for Lancaster (although he votes against the
Amendment) does not deny is more reasonable than the speech from
the Throne, the Lord Chancellor will resign the Seals —(Laughter.)
And if we merely mention that difficult and delicate subject the Estab-
lished Church of Ireland, the whole Administration may refuse to con-
tinue in office.— (Loud cheering from the Opposition benches.) Sir,
I have no fear of such an occurrence as this, and we should not
refrain from obtaining those benefits, and carrying into effect those plans
of reform in which the wishes of the people are so deeply
concerned.—(Hear, hear, hear)—Sir, we have had some ex-
perience of the concessions of that party who are now in power.
(Loud and continued cheering.) We have seen them before now yield
to the demaiids of the people—we have seen them oppose the repeal of
the disabilities affecting the Protestant Dissenters, and at length yield
them ; and, compelled by the force of circumstances, we have seen them
refuse to concede to the wisdom and eloquence of Mr. Canning and
Lord Plunkett, that which was demanded of them in favour of our
Roman Catholic brethren ; but we have seen these concessions made
when force has been thrown into the balance—(Tremendous cheering.)
We have seen, likewise, that the same men who opposed the claim of
the large manufacturing towns of Birmingham and Manchester to send
two representatives to Parliament, afterwards concede nearly the whole
of the Reform Bill, when the voice of the people was heard.—(Cheers.)
No doubt if we speak in clear and decided language, in the course of a
short time we shall have not only the report of municipal corporations,
but some effectual proposition to reform them; and even that difficult
and delicate subject, the Church of Ireland, will receive the considera.
tion of ministers. lam not yet come to the end of the concessions of the
Tory party.—(Long and continued cheering from the opposition
benches.) There is something in the state of that question as it
regards the people of Ireland, and as it regards the state of society in
that country, which will sooner or later make them confess this,
in addition to their other errors, and add to their manifold vexa-
tions and great mortification, by compelling them to a measure,
of full and satisfactory concession.—(Renewed cheering.) With these
opinions, I shall have no hesitation in voting for my noble friend,
and I do think that it is far better that this house should
speak its own language—that, as the legitimate organ of
the sentiments of the people, our opinions should reach the throne,
rather than take the chance of these various subjects being made the
further source of discontent in England, and of something more than
discontent in the neighbouring country of Ireland.—(Loud cheers.)
_ . . .

I think that the expression of-our opinions to the throne cannot but
tend to the allaying of that discontent. With respect to the speech of
the right hon. baronet, it struck me at the time that it was more a de-
fence of his own conduct than those with whom he was connected. There
is much which I might have objected to in the public conduct of that
party in the house of Commons, but still more in their conduct in the
house of Lords during the late Administration—[The two tb lowing sen-
tences were inaudible from the low tone in which the noble lord spoke.]
But when I state these things, I must state that it is with re-
ference only to the period which I have mentioned ; be.
cause I think that if I were to look back and con-
sider these questions for some time past, it appears to
me that the opposition of the right hon. baronet was a most extrava-
gant indulgence in him towards us.—(A laugh.) I must say, that when
I admit that the opposition of the right honourable baronet was fair
and manly, yet I feel that, upon a question of great importance, he
did not appear to have any difficulty or hesitation in
giving his opposition. As for instance, when my noble
friend the member for Lancashire brought forward the
Irish Church Temporalities Bill he stated that upon the
fate of that bill his Majesty's government were determined to stand
or fall, this did not prevent the right honourable baronet from
voting against that bill, both on the .second and third reading.
—[Sir Robert Peel—" I voted only against the 147th clause."]—
Likewise at the conclusion of Lord Grey's Government, when my
noble friend, Lord Stanley, left that government, the right hon. baronet
lost no time in declaring his total want of confidence in that
government. The grounds upon which the hon. baronet stated that opinion
were the issuing of the Irish Church Commission, and the opinion
which Lord Grey's Government were known to hold upon that question.
—(Cheers.) I must therefore, observe that the right hon. baronet should
not find fault with me if seeing that he declared an entire
want of confidence in Lord Grey's Government, with regard to the
Irish Church Commission, I should now declare a want of confidence
in his (the hon. baronet's)government. Well, the Administration of Lord
Grey came to a close, which I regret as well as every other member
of that Cabinet. I will only say that that event was attributed by
rumours which were totally without foundation, to an intrigue which
had no existence. The Administration of Lord Melbourne was then
formed, and when formed it was determined by that Government to pursue
the principles of Lord Grey's administration. When called upon to
consider the great questions to be brought forward, they considered it
would be necessary to remodel the English church, and that they should
bring it before Parliament as soon as the Commission to Ireland should
have reported the state of the Irish Church. And my Noble
Friend (Lord Althorp) made a declaration in the house of Commons that
in the ensuing session they should bring before Parliament the
question of Corporation Reform. Such was the state of the Go-
vernment when Lord Spencer died, and Lord Melbourne went
to Brighton to receive his Majesty's commands. At the
time Lord Melbourne's Government was formed, Lord Althorp, at the
request of his colleagues, consented to form a part of that Government.
When I say this, I should add, that it was because Lord
Althorp then was a member of the House of Commons. It was
not possible—and I stated my opinions strongly at the time—it was not
possible to form a Government, whilst Lord Althorp remained in the
House of Commons, if he were out of that Government. But when
by the death of Lord Spencer, Lord Althorp was called to the
House of Peers, my noble friend, Lord Melbourne, professed
himself ready to carry on the Government on the same principles on
which it was founded, if he had his Majesty's permission to fill
up the vacancy caused by the death of Lord Spencer—(Hear, hear.)
Sir, upon that subject, I need not allude to what took place in this
house a few days ago, and the accusations that were then made against
me. All I will say upon the subject is this, that even not at all
solicitous of any such honour, yet when it was the general wish of my
colleagues that I should take part in this arrangement, 1 cannot deny
that I thought it would be better for the Whig party and the cause
of Reform that the course suggested should be adopted.—(Cheers.)
Sir, it did not please his Majesty to give Lord Melbourne that commis-
sion ; the reason why that commission was not given, and the responsi-
bility of it, rests on the Duke of Wellington and the right hon gentleman,
the right honourable Baronet having thought proper to ailude to the
transactions that took place after his return from the Continent. I
must, therefore, for a very short period, occupy the at.
tention of the House, by referring to the reports that were
spread abroad, intended to be injurious to every member of Lord