The Sun.
London, England, 1832-09-15 00:00:00

LAND CHARTER.

Examination of Thomas ATTWOOD, Esq.
( Continued from The Sun of yesterday.)

Hai not that just the same effect as a reduction of taxa-
tion, without any change in the ♦alue of the circulating
medium ?—I have not been able to see any great good
done by the reduction of taxation yet ; although I am a
gnat advocate for such reduction, I think that in every
step taken in the last 15 years, in the reduction of taxa-

tion, as we have reduced the taxes we have increased in
misery. Taxes are more or less oppressive in proportion
to the quantity of money in circulation.
Have you considered the principles on which the Bank
of England ought to conduct its management of the issue
of notes ?—I do not like to give an opinion about the
Bank ; but it acts upon principles which the law imposes,
and I cannot see how it can act otherwise than it does
act now.

Is there any alteration of the law with respect to the
Bank of England which you would suggest ?—I should
suggest that when the circulating medium has become effi-
cient to employ the industry of the country, at a period
when the gold goes abroad, the Bank should increase its
notes to fill the place of the gold, and then we should have
no depression of prices.
You would do that upon the understanding that that
would lead to a Bank restriction ?—lt is highly probable,
but not certain.

Supposing the Bank do not calculate upon coming to a
Bank re.triction, is it not necessary for the Bank to regu-
-1 Ite their issues according to the foreign exchanges ?
Unquestionably they must, or else they must stop payment
themselves.

Do you think that increase of taxation would restore
prosperity to the country ?—Unquestionably not.
But yet you consider that the diminution of taxation
which has taken place in the last fifteen years has done
mischief ?—I do not say that it has done mischief, but it
his given very litle relief to the country; the great evil
we laboured under not being the weight of taxes, but the
thraldrom of our industry.
Does taxation diminish consumption, in your opinion ?
am inclined to think not. I think that if we took
30,000,000/. off from our taxation. we should reduce
the present employment of labour 30,000,0001. at least;
the taxes might be increased to double their present
amount, and the country not suffer one-tenth part of what
it is now suffering.
Does it not transfer the cinsumption from the industrious
man to the person that lives upon the tax ?—Unques-
tionably, all the taxes are lett as a charge upon industry.
Therefore, it may leave the aggregate consumption of
the country the same, but it would diminish the consump•
tion of the' industrious man, and transfer it to the man
who lives up in a fixed income ?-1 think a sudden re-
duction of taxation of 20 or 30 millions would not only
throw 20 or 30 :pillions of labour out of employment, but
I think it would act collaterally upon the industrious classes
so as to do them still more damage for a short time.
Would it not diminish the production of articles con-
sumed by the persons living upon fixed incomes, and oc•
casion a consumption on the part of the labourer to the
extent of the tax reduced ?-0n the contrary, it would
induce the consumption of the industrious classes for per-
haps one or two years by its collateral action upon credit,
confidence, and trade.
You have stated that in your opinion taxation does not
affect the power of consumption ?—The present taxation
is employed in absolute consumption ; it is all employed
in the maintenance of labour, in one shape or other.
Then you think that taxation increases the power of
consumption ?—To a certain extent, at present.
Is not taxation one of the fixed charges to which you
alluded just now as bearing heavily upon the country,
and which, in your opinion, prevents the labourers from
consuming as much as they otherwise would ; how do you
reconcile those two opinions ?—Because the breaking
down of the prices of property, without being attended
with a corresponding breaking down of the charges upon
production, destroys the motives for the employment of
industry, and as such keeps labour unemployed.
If more is consumed, must not more persons be em.
ployed to produce the commodities which are consumed ?
That is the action of the present taxation.
Is not this the explanation of the effect of the deprecia-
tion of the value of money—that when a manufacturer is
trading, not for money, but for time, when the period of
payment comes round, be pays for the raw article in a cur-
rency of less value than he stipulated for at the time when
he made the bargain, and thus secures to himself a profit?

the creditor interest of the country, and forced to make
good the engagements of the debtor to the creditor at a
time when, at three different periods, the burden of debts
has been nearly doubled ; the consequence of this painful
and urgent position of the bankers has been to expose them
so, without exception, to very great injuries and losses ;
it bas likewise been to expose them all to a great number
of difficult entanglements and locked up debts ; the means
of supporting those entanglements and doubtful and locked
up debts, and the means of supporting the losses upon
their capitA in a great degree arose from the masses of
money which the public have been in the habit of keeping
'fa t eir hinds, and al,o from the annual proits of their
business ; now the annual profits of their business are
broken down and nearly annihilated ; that I will call a
comparative trifle ; but combinations of the richer cus.
towers and the richer connections have been engaged
against them, who draw away their own balances, which
were formerly ;n the hands of the country bankers, to form
powerful combinations of former friends converted into
bitter enemies, snd these powerful combinations prevail,
by the influence of numbers and of solicitation, in drawing
away large masses of money from the old establishments;
the consequence of which is, that the old establishments
are left in a great degree with all manner of difficulties
and entanglements, and the means by which hitherto they
have supported those entanglements are mainly drawn
away, or are in the act of being drawn away. This is
my principal reason for considering the joint stock banks
exceedingly injurious to the banking sys em, and, t'.►rougb
that, to the country at large

Has it come to your lariwle lge that since the joint
stock bank has been established at Birmingham it has met
with very serious losses ?—I have no doubt whatever of it,
though they are mainly concealed.
Do you know it?—Yes, I do.

Do they bear a large proportion to the profits of the
year ?—I do not know, it is all concealment and darkness.

h there any publication of their accounts ?—None, but
to the directors, who are interested in jobbing and puffing
up the thing, which, in my opinion is more illusive than
any of the bubbles of 1825.

Do you think the security of that bank, considering the
number of proprietors, is good ?—I do not think it is
more so than that of private bankers, because the private
bankers have always been safe, generally speaking; I have
never known en inmtanee of scarce a farthing being lost by
country bankers; of the banks that stopped during the
panic, 60 out of 66 have paid 20s. in the pound, and the
one that stopped in Birmingham has_paid_l7s. 6d.

Would not a creditor find great difficulty in recovering
from those joint stock banks?—Very great difficulty in-
deed ; I think it is a great hardship upon country bankers
that the joint stock banks stand upon a much better foot-
ing in that tesptct against the public than they do.
Are the proprietors of the joint stock bank at Birming-
ham known?—They are not known publicly, except by
conversation.

Would it not be proper, as a security to the creditors,

. .
that the names should be known?-1 think so, and that
when the proprietors retire, it should be published, as in a
private bank ; they can retire now when they please,
and in three years they are released from all difficulty
and responsibility ; whereas a private banker cannot re-
tire without publication in the Gazette; and, again,
no law-suit can reach them in less than 12 months, and
during that period they may go abroad and avoid an act
of bankruptcy; so that the public are imposed upon by
the establishment of joint stock banks.

Has there been much fluctuation in the prices of
shares, and can you trace those fluctuations to any con-
trivances of the Dinctars of the Company to raise or de-
press the shares ?—Undoubtedly that has been the cur-
rent opinion in the town, that the premiums were merely
created far letting the shares go in a puffed up way.
Ii there any restriction as to the power of the Di-
rectors to buy or sell shares ?—None whatever, that 1
know of.

Do they issue notes?—No, they obtained a limited
power of issuing Bank of England notes at the rate of 3

per cent.

You have stated that the Birmingham joint stock com-
pany has met with some heavy losses ; do you happen to
know any instance where the loss has arisen by a loan of
money either to a Director or to a Proprietor of a joint
stock banking company ?—I know of several to proprie-
tors, but not, I think, to a Director.

Is it within your knowledge that the loans to those in•
dividuals in question were made upon securities upon
which it would have been unusual for a private bank to
make advances?—l think they were upon very dangerous
securities indeed.

Do you think that the principle of the joint stock banks
as a universal principle to be objectionable?—l think
they are all objectionable, because we have in England a
long established system, which is equally efficient for
every good purpose, without having any of the bad effects.
Supposing that there were to be found towns of consi-
derable trade and population where a bank has actually
been wanted, and also districts of the country where there
is a want of the conveniences of a bank, and a want of
circulating medium, and there is no disposition on the
part of three or four or five or six individuals to associate
together for the purpose of establishing a bank, under
those circumstances how would you relieve the wants 01
the public?—After the destruction among banks occasioned
by the panic, it might not be objectionable to allow in

those districts of joint stock bank; ; but I think that in
other districts of the country they have been exceedingly
injurious to the old bankers, and, through them, to the
country at large.
Arc you aware that in the town of Lancaster a few
years ago there was no private bank whatever ?—Yes.
And that a joint stock bank has been established there,
which has affirded great accommoda ion to the merchants
and traders of the town of Lancaster, and been profitable
to the proprietors have heard so, but I much doubt it.
You have stated that the advantage of a depreciation of
currency, when it reached its maximum, would be, that
it would reduce the fixed charges of industry; would not
this occasion a diminution in the proportion which tli,
rent and taxes for the payment of the dividends bore to
the whole amount ; would not that occasion a diminution
of the articles consumed by those that receive rents and
dividends; and how does this agree with your farmer
answer, that the reduction of taxation would occasion ra

ther distress than prosperity to the country ?—I do not
mean to say that reduction of taxation would occasion
distress prernanently, but that for a few months, or pedlaps
years, any large reduction of taxation would increase the
national embarrassment, as things now are.
Must not the inttnediate effect of this depreciation, when
it reached its maximum, by diminishing the fixed charges
upon industry, be to reduce the consumption of the ar-
ticles consumed by those who receive rents and dividends,
and thus in the first instance to increase rather than to di•.

minish the distress of the country?—Previously increasing
the consumption of the productive classes more than cor-
respondingly.
The question refers to the effect of the depreciation when
it has reached its maximum, inasmuch as it will reduce
the incoinc in the possession of those who now receive rent

Putting the effect of a reduction of fixed charges aside,
do you mean to say that when the reduction reached its
maximum, it would increase the prosperity of the country,
reducing the currency to the value of one half what it was
before?—When the work is once done, there can be no
occasion to push it any further.
When it has reached the ultimate depreciation, say of
10s. in the pound, do you mean to say that then,
putting aside the question of reducing the fixed charges,
it will be an advantage to the country ?—Unquestionably ;
and there will be no occasion to go any farther. By
leaving all the powers of industry free, every trade having
a reasonable profit would cause every labourer to be em-
ployed beneficially to his employer; and every labourer
finding that his employer had a profit in his employment,
would naturally obtain from his employer adequate wages
for his industry.
Do you propose, when the depreciation has reached a
certain point, to keep it at that point?—There might be
various modes—either by establishing a metallic standard
of value, or by establishing the Bank of England note as
a legal tender; or by converting a mass of Exchtepter-
bills into a legal tender, or by converting a portion of the
national debt into a legal tender, and limiting it so as to
t.ave an abundance of circulation without any excess.
Do you consider, that so long as there exists a labounr
in the country not fully employed, an increased issue of
currency may be made with advantage, whatever it be?--
As a general principle, I think, unquestionably, that so long
as any number of industrious honest workmen in the kinr:-
dont are out of employment, supposing such deficiency of
employment not to be local but general, I should think it
the duty, and certainly the intetest, of Government, to
continue the depreciation of the currency until full employ-
ment is obtained, and general prosperity.
Witat is your test of full employment ?—lt is difficult to
obtain an absolute test.

If you have not an abso►ute test to which you can refer.
may not the principle you recommend lead to an indefinite
depreciation, since different persons, and different Alinis-
ters, and different Governments, will have very different
notions with respect to what full employment means ?-1
think not; every one considers that full employment c,r-
tainly ex:sted in 1825.
Were there no persons unemployed in 1825 ?—I think
no honest man.

Would you have the depreciation go on as the population
increased ?—I see no necessity for that ; whether we have
4ot the present state of population, or double its number,
a just state of the currency would employ them all.
Would you have the amount of currency r,ferrible,
not to capital, but to the population of the country ?—I
think it would have no reference to the population of the
country ; if the population were dueled, I think the
whole might be employed as beneficially as the present
number, by establishing either a just metallic standard of
value, or by establishing artificial standards of value, which,
in my opinion, are better suited to the present artificial
state of our society.

Can you employ more labourers in a country than you
can house, feed, and clothe?--The employment I consider
to be the housing, feeding, and clothing them.
Does not the extent of the mass of industry you can
set in motion in a country depend upon thequantity of the
necessaries of life you can command in order to give to the
labourers?—Certainly.
How could you increase the proportion of the labourers
that are employed in a country, without taking away a
portion of the necessaries of life from the wealthy, to con-
fer it upon the poorer and industrious ?—I think the la-
bourers would each of them produce more than four times
as much of the comforts of life as they and their families
could possibly consume.

When you admit that the number of persons you can
nnploy in the country depends upon the quantities of the
necessaries of life you can cotnraand, and when you state
that the plan you recommend would put in action a mueh
greater number of labourers, how could that be, unless you
took away from one class in order to give it to the other ?
—I think the quantity of food and clothing which we can
command in the country depends mainly upon the quan-
tity of labourers whose hands and heads we can employ in
producing such commodities.

Supposing the population was suddenly reduced, so as
to afford ample employment to those that remained, in that
case would vou consider the present state of our currency
atisfactory ?—Certainly not ; I doubt whether any reduc-
tion of population would improve the circumstances of the
remainder.

Then you think the wages of labour to be dependent
upon the number of labourers ?—At present the reward
of labour being destroyed, the labourers present the
idienomenon of a superabundance; at a time when the
labour of their hands will produce four times as much
food and clothing as their families will consume, they find n •
•mploytnent, because, the organ of industry, which is
:nosey, does not exist in sufficient quantities to give the
productive classes a reward in the employment oflahoure:
therefore the labourer in want of employment looks over
he hedge upon the half-cultivated farm, where the land
suffering for want of his labour, but at the same time the
farmer has neither the profit nor the money to enable him
to bring the hand and the land into contact.
Do lou think the retail profits have not been reduced
in the same proportion as the wbolesale?—The retail
pikes have unquestionably not been reduced in the same
roportion as the wholesale. If you speak to a black-
stnith, who buys his iron at one-third of the price that
e bought it in 1825, he charges just as much, and he

tell you that he ie doing worse now than he did then.

Does it not follow that the retail profits must be higl.er?
If they had the same amount of trade and the same degree
,f competition that they had, and no more, the retail pro-
fits must be higher ; but they 'have so many bad debts,
tnd so much competition, and such diminished sales, that
I consider they are doing worse now than ever they did.
Is not the effect of competition always to r, duce profits?
—Competition must have the effect of keeping down
profits to a healthy level.
If, therefore, retail profits have not been reduced, must
not the persons engaged in the retail trade have been, ❑pots

_ .
the who!e, more prosperous than they formerly were?---I
{link their profits have been reduced, but not so ten ibly
he manufacturers', because they do not hold dead stock in

the same way. I have stated °before that retail tradesmen
vere never so distressed as they are now.
Do you think that anything that alters the present dis-
tribution of the income of the country would be injurious?
—I do not mean to say that, but to say that anything that
tnterrupts the social machinery that is now in work would

produce a sudden mischief, which could not Le counter-

ialAnced by the prospective benefits two three years

hence.

Must not any depreciation of the currency produce
:hat?--I think it would be beneficial in every way, and to

all classes ; to the creditor, in making those debts good
which are now bad ; and beneficial to the debtor, in en-
tbling him to pay debts which be cannot now pay with-
out destruction. Experience proved this in 1817 and
1818, and in 1824 and 1825.

What precise alterations in the laws relating t., tl.e
currency would you think advisable ?—I sli, ul l wis'i ex-
a•eedingly to recommend a silver standard.
Du you mean exclusive of the gold, or in addition 2-1
,vould make silver the only standard, and let gold fin I its
.12,i0; then 1 woul I recommend strongly to increase the

issues of Bank. notes that ate n-w in circulation very con-
siderably; and then I w rec,:nmend the re-issuiug of
I/. notes, and for Bank of England notes to be made a
leg-I render from all persons hut the Bank of England itself.
With regard to the issue of country bank-notes, would
you permit them as at present?—My opinion is, that
country bank-notes are the most important and the most
useful instruments of circulation that exist; and upon this
subject, I hare a short paper, which I sent to Lord Liver-
pool upon the 2.2.1 of November, 1525 ; it is I pon the
sulti,ct of the I/. notes that were then in circulation.
You stated, that yru wish to make B.nk of Enghtnel
notes a legal tender for every body except the Burk of
England, and you apprehend that one of the consequences
of that must be, the ultimate necessity of a Bank restric-
tion ?—I think it highly probable, but I also think we are
in great danger of that now.
When that Bank restriction occurred, would not that
be tantamount to making Bank of England notes a legal
tender by the Bank of England it,elf?—lt would be tan-
tamount to that, but the lreisl tture might so limit. the
B tnk of England as to take the evil away from that state
of things ; they might appoint a courimiss4m Aver the
Bank of England, with power to obligate and limit the
Bank of England to a given amount of circulation.•
Do you think the amount of circulation in the country
ought to he always exactly the same?—No, think it
ought to possess an expansive character; but rarely a con-
tractive one. I think the productive employment of in-
dustry should he the guide. The country bank-notes I
eonsid-r to be a most valuable part of the circulation, in-
asnittch as the country-bankers acted directly upon the
channels of industry, and their small note circulation was
all employed in the absolute bona fide feeding and clothing
of the population, tut the Bark of England note does not
rotor in coot :et so directly as the country bankers' did.

JAMAICA.

(From the Cornwall Courier.)

FALmotyrn, Auc. I.—On Saturday a general meeting
of the Colonial Union of the Nortbside parishes was held
at the Court house, in this town.

PRICES OF SNARES THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCiZ.
Paid. Per Share
A nglo Mex. Min. Co. (iss. at 51. pm.l £lllO
Fri Janos Mining Company £l5O
lb-axiban ;)fin. Co. (iss. at 5/. pm.) £'2o
Ditto St. John Del Rey
Pritish Iron Mining Company
Columbian Mining Co. (iss. at 51. pm.) 4St(,
English Mining Company
General Mining Association
Real del Monte Mining Co.
--
t. rated Mex. Min. Co. (its. at '2l. pm.) 40
Ditto New Set ip 2
Alliance Fire Insurance Comp lO
Protector Insurance Comp.
Australian Co
Canaria Company l7
General Steam Navigation Co. l3
Provincial Rank of Ireland 2.5

6!<,
2p.%
24

XI 5 0