The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-29 00:00:00

A LITERARY CURIOSITY.

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A tew steady canvassers wanted.

of the fez or caps for the reeul tr troops, the Pacha was
directed to send a number of skilful workmen to Constanti-
flop] Huss-in's answer had been received; he returns
thanks for the presents, and announces that he has put
on the new costume, that his children have followed the
example, and that the principal inhabitants begin to wear
the new uni.orm. By the numerous volunteers and a
levy of recruits, he hopes soon to have a corps of 6 000
men ; he has sent a company to Constantinople, to learn
tne exercise. The workmen required have also arrived here.
The inhabitants of Dttnascus have received with great
satisfaction the new Governor, Elhalz Ali Paella, and
Achmed Effendi, which latter was sent to quell the feats
of the peaceable inhabitants, and to announce that the
Sultan granted a general amnesty, considering the late
troubles as having been excited by the intrigues of evil-
minded persons strangers tit the city. Achmed Effendi
basing read the decree of amnesty in presence of the
Governor and the principal inhabitants, it was received
with unbounded gratitude and promises of entire submis-
sion to the commands of the Goverrummt. The several
classes of the inhabitants have sent addl.• sees to the Sul-
tan, in conformity with their feelings of gratitude and
loyalty.
The family and domestics of Mustapha, Pasha o' Scu-
tari, have art ived here in two ships from Dur.zzo, with
their effects, and were immediately conveyed to the resi•
deuce assigned to Mu-tapha Paella. Ade ail. d list of the
gold and silver, arms, and other costly effects belonging
to Mustapha, it as laid befor- the Sultan, who, having
granted to the P..cha unlimited pardon. ordered all his pro-
p .rty, to the value of above a million and a half of pias-
tres, to be delivereti utt to him.

EXCHANGES ON LONDON.
HAMBURG, MARCH 23.-13 I2N ; two months, 13 11M.
BERLIN, MARcH 22..—Three months, 7
I.ElPstc, MARCH 19.—Two month., 6 18N.

burg' Reporter.
THE HAGUE. MARCH 24.—There was to-day a long
sitting of the Ca inet Giunril, at the Palace, at which
his Itiyal liighne-s Prince Frederick was present, and
C -tint Orloff was also admitted. We understand that the
Count sets off to-morrow for Lon ion.

DUTCH FUNDS.
AMSTERDAM, MARCH 4.
Actual Debt, 9.% percent. 4l:/11, to 41
Amort Syndic, 4X, per cent 67% to 6854
Ditto, ditto. 314 per cent.
Voluntary Loan, IS3I, 6 per cent 91% to 92%
—Dutch Papers, March 26

COMMON COUNCIL.—A Court of Common
Council was held yesterday at Guildhall, for despatch of busi-
ness, the Lord Mayor in the chair. In answer to a question,
the Lord Mayor said he was not aware of any law which autho-
rised him, by virtue of his office, to enforce the observance of
the Sabbath ; but if persons keeping shops open on that day
were brought before him as a Magistrate, he should know how
to deal with them. Mr. It. Taylor, in conformity with a requi-
sition to that effect, brought forward a motion, the object of
which was to support the policy pursued by the present Govern-
ment for the abolition of West India slavery. Mr. S. Dixon
moved the previous question. After a discussion of consider-
able length, in which Messrs. Beck, Thornhill, C. Pearson, &c.,
supported, and Alderman Copeland, Mr. Dixon, &C., resisted
the original motion, it was carried by a very great majority.
After some other business of a local nature had been disposed
of, the Court adjourned at a quarter after five.
ENGLISH WON! EN.—A drawing-room and
court of presentation are always here as ridiculous as the levee
of a burgomaster; and all the pride and wealth of the aristo-
cracy are lost sight of in the awkward embarrassment of these
fair ones, not adorned, but burdened with diamonds and orna-
ments. In dishabille, and when they are moving in their do-
mestic circle, young English women very often appear to a great
advantage, but in large societies hardly ever—for an uncon.
querable timidity so thoroughly paralyzes even their intellects,
that a rational conversation with them is out of the question.
Of all the European women, I take them to be the most pleas-
ing and comfortable wives, as also the most unfit for display
and society—a judgment in which the praise is greater than
theblame.—Prince Puckler Muskau.

How TO OBTAIN A GOOD TURNIP CROP.
--The rules to which Mr. Berry, an experienced agriculturist,
ascribed his success in this department of rural management,
and which, he says, he has observed as closely as possible, are—
First, to sow seed of one year's growth, which secures simulta.
neous vegetation, and defies the fly, the plants being numerous.
Seedsmen too frequently mix the seed of different years, in con.
sequence of which it comes out of the ground at various periods,
and in such quantities, that the fly easily overpowers the crop.
Second, thick sowing. It is much easier to cut out than insert
a plant. Third, to sow immediately after the manure is
ploughed in, by which the advantage of the moisture is secured.
In showery weather he finds an advantage in steeping the
seeds in water ; but, if the weather be dry, steeping is injurious,
the contrast being too great between the water and a dry hot
state of the earth, and the plants come up yellow and sickly.
The turnip.grower will be amply repaid for raising his OW7t seed,
and selecting with his own hand the turnips for that purpose.
Vegetables and grain are almost as susceptible of improvement,
by judicious selection, as cattle and sheep ; but, generally
speaking, the public arc satisfied to purchase seed raised from
a patch of plants left in the field, without selection or care
as to what may blossom in their neighbourhood; the conse-
quence of which is, continual cross impregnation ; a circum.
stance to which we owe thenumberless well-founded complaints
of disappointment —York Courant.
_ _ _

DANGEROUS STEEPLE CHASE.—The first
steeple chase for the Tankard Stakes, came off, on Tuesday
last. The ground selected was from Dr. Ogilvy's Villa, near
Brechin, to the Parks of Careston, and nowhere, we are con-
vinced, can it be surpassed for severity ; indeed, it was the
opinion of one of our oldest sportsmen present, that it was
quite impracticable, he declaring that he did not believe any
horse in Scotland could get through it. The fences were
mostly of stone, with a few hedges, but all of the most rasping
description. They were, however, gallantly cleared, and the
whole distance, four miles, notwithstanding great part of the
land was ploughed, was run in twenty minutes. The day was
favourable and a large body of spectators were present, and
highly delighted with the sport. Four horses started ; General
Hunter's, rode by Captain Graham Hunter; Mr. Fitzmaurice
Scott's by Captain Archibald Douglas, Mr. Duncan's by Mr.
O'Connor, and Mr. Chalmers's by Mr. Laird. They started at
a rattling pace, keeping well together, O'Connor, however,
having the lead till within three field lengths of home, when,
on going through a hedge, the stirrup was torn from the sad-
dle and he thrown. Douglas then came up, but, at the last
leap, the horse blundered, and both horse and man came tumbling
heels over head into the winning field. Hunter now brushed up,
took the leap in fine style, and came first in ; unfortunately,
however, on being weighed, he was found sightly deficient,
and the umpire, Mr. Dowbigging, found himself obliged to
award the sweepstakes to Fitzmaurice Scott's horse, which,
atter all, came in second. Captain Douglas, we are sorry to
say, had several of his ribs broken by his If .11, None of the
others were seriously hurt.—Montrose Review.

..............
PLEASA NTNESS OF TEACHING.—SeIIOOI-
steShem, Ham, and Japhet : who
wasa ther N
fatherof
Shemsons,,Ham,
and Japhet? (Boys silent.)
You cannot tell. Well, now let's try again—You know Mr.
m
Sparkes, who lives over the way—now, Mr. Sparkes has three
sons, Tom, Jack, and Harry—who is the father of 'Fom, Jack,
and Harry ? Boys—Mr. Sparkes. Schoolmaster—" That's
right! very good boys indeed! Now, then—Noah had three
sons, Shem, Ham, and Japhet : who was the father of Shern,
Ham, and Japhet ? Boys.. =Mr. Sparkes !. York Courant.

Mr. DUNDAS then moved the second reading of a Bill
to enlarge the period of the patent granted to Mr. Morton
for his invention of a patent slip.
An HON. ME:3IBEn. who, we understood to be Sir M.
S Stewart, rose to request the Hon. Member to postpone
his motion. The House must be aware of the extreme
jealousy with which the country always viewed monopo.
,ies of all kinds. The ingenious inventor of the patent
slip was certainly entitled to great encouragement, but lie
oad had fourteen years of exclusive benefit from his patent
in this country, and it had been also much used at St.
Petersburgh and in other countries.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He (Sir M. Stewart) had two petitions upon this subject
from Renfrew and Greenock, against the Bill. The one from
Greenock complained, and justly, that the inventor exer-
cised the exclusive use of the patent without eonarnuoi.
eating any of the benefits to be derived from it to the
inhabitants. He therefore put it to the Hon. Member,
whether he would not consent to a short postponement,
rather than put the petitioners to the expense of at once
. opposing the Bill.
Mr. HUME said the present Bill was a highly impor-
tant one. The case of Greenock, as mentioned by the
Hon. Baronet, was entiled to the consideration of the
House, and the Honourable Member who brought
:orward the Bill, was limn.' to make out a good case
to justify them in going into a Committee upon a request
to renew the patent. He was anxious that the patentee
should be well paid for the ingenuity of his invention—
( Hear)—but the House should not in the exercise of its
discretion go beyond the rules of reason and justice. The
whole state of our mercantile navy warranted the House
in looking with great jealousy at anything which might
effect its interests, and he should therefore put it to the
Hon. Member to state some special circumstances to jus-
tify the House in agreeing to the Bill.
Mr. SPRING RICE said his attention had only b.en
called to this subject a few days ago, by his
Noble Friend at the head of the Board of Trade.
He certainly was of opinion that the House was not in
the possession of sufficient information to enable them to
agree to the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Dundis).
It was true that a case might by possibility occur, which
would warrant them in extending or renewing a patent,
but they should have an opportunity of acquiring all the
information upon the subject that could be obtained. The
case of Greenock, if true, w:s certainly a circumstance
against ihe renewal of the patent. He therefore wished
for a postponement for a lea, days, in order that some
ii.quiries should be made.
Mr. DUNDAS said lie could not consent to the propo-

sition of postponement. The invention was one attended
wiih great labour and expense, and was one of the most
usetul that hail ever been made.—(Hear, hear.) The
patentee would, if the Government would purchase his
invention, most willin ly make it the property of the
H;s first experiment cost him 1,2001., and be
had had an expensive law suit at Edinburgh, so that ie
he had not, as yet, been properly compensated. In
favour of the invention there were many eminent
men, among whom were Sir D. Milne, Captain
H. Hill, Admiral Sir N. Johnstone Ripe, anti s. veral
engineers had given very warm testimonials as to its very
great utility. As to the case of Greenock, that op iosition
he knew would he withdrawn, on condition of a clause
bring introduced in the Committee, granting the petitioners
the use of the invention on certain conditions. The Hill
hail already been a considerabe time betore the Howe, and
therefore he trusted that Hun. Members would consent to
its being read a second time.
Mi. DIXON said, in his opinion the chief question
was, whether the inventor had or had not been sufficiently
remunerated, and that could only be decided in the Com-
mittee.

Mr. S. RICE begged it to be understood that he was not
opposed to the BM, but he wished only for a short post.
ponement. If that were not granted, he should feel him-
self obliged to vote against the Bill, not from any un-
friendly feelings; but from a wish for further information.
H.-, therefore, suggested that it should be postponed until
Friday.
Mr. WILKS said, that what had already transpired
showed the deep f. sling which the public took in all c tses
of monopoly, particularly when they affect. d the shipp•ng
interest; and he was of opinion that the Bill should not
be allowed to pass until the House hid had every in
formation upon the subject, and the whole of the

shipping interebt had had ample no ice of the Bill.
He considered that it t►ecame the public duty of the House
to talc, car« that measures of th►s de.cription s,,ould nit
be cat-jet' forward with ►n.liscreet velocity. If time was
nut given for the consideration of the measure, he should

oppose it.
Mr. DUNDAS observed, that as his Right Hon. Friend
near h.m (Mr. S. Rice) had stated, that it the subj-ct was
postponed to Friday. an opportunity wouid be afforded of
considering the tnea.ure, he should wove that the Bill be
read a second time on toat day._ . . . .

Mr. WILKES, considering this a question of principle,
and not of deta►l, thought it was nut a fit subject fur a
Committee.
Atttr a few observations from Mr. HUME and Mr.
Dixos, the conversation dropped by the Bill being ordered
to be read a second time on Thursday.

Co.onel PERCEVAL presented a petition from the
parish of Skrrre, in the county of Sigo, against the plan
of E ,ucation in Ireland. The Hon. Member also pre-
sented a petition from the Governor -aid Overseer of the
gaol of S igo, praying that in the Grand Jury Act they
might be allowed superannuations.
Mr. SADLER presentee a petition from Newark-on-
Trent in .avour of the Factories Bill.
The HoN. MEMBER also moved that the names of Sir
Robert Pee!, Mr Gisborne, and Lord St alley be added
to the Sciect Committee on that Bill.—Agreed .o.

The HoN. MEMBER. also gave notice that on Thursday,
the 10th of May, he should !mug forward a motion rela-
tive to the introduction of Poor Laws into Ireland.
Lord MOLIPETH presented a petition trotn the inha-
bitants of llew,bury in favour of the new Mtuisterial scheme
of national education in Ireland. As the circumstances

miler which the petition originated were of rather a sin-
gular nature, he should detail them to the House. The
petition proceeded from a public meeting of the in-
habitants of Dewsbury, which was originally con-
vened by members of the Established Church whose
opinion• were opposed to the Ministerial plan, and
eobject of the meeting was to address petitions to the
Legislature in unison with their own opinions. It was
at first intended that the meeting should only be attended
by those who possessed the same opinion as the getters up
of this meeting, and tickets were issued accordingly, bu
several persons obtained admission who hail not tickets.
On this being discovered, the sense of the meeting was
taken as to whe her they should remain, aid it was
agreed that they should. In making these observa-
tions the Noble Lord did not intend to convey any
reflevion on the conveners of the meeting ; as he belies% d
them to be most sincere in what they did, but he was
happy they did nut persuade the meecing to take the swim
view of the booject which they did, tor alter a consi-
derable delay, the original resolutions were neeatived by a
large majority, nearly twenty to one, and the result was,
lie petition which he hail then the honour to present.
Whether the scheme which h.td Oren in reduced by
illi-
oisters, considering the male:ials on w hien it had to work,
and the opposition that had been raised ag oust it wou d
11- f •unti practicable, he could not judge, but. lie w imbed
it well upon two gr,,unds ; first, b cause he was con
it hail been set a..ior toy the Right Hon. Secretary'
Irelan i with a sincere desire to give to all ciasses of the
Limit people, as use-ui, tour .1, religious, and scriptural an
education as circumstances would allow, aril n. xt because
he believed, if fair play were t iven to it, i would have the
effect,. of giving to the Irisii nation a beiter edura,ion
and a larger acquaintance with the Bible than they
h id I 'that° had the means of eujoying. Till the
necessity was demonstt at, y proved, Ithough attached
to principles truly Pratestaiit, desirous of giving
the widest possible diffusi in to Scriptural truth, he was
convinced they would attain that great and pai amount
end most erficiciously—not by relusing to do anything
their utmost when they could out do all. If frost un-
could not accomplish much, lint by doing
because they
iortunate circumstances over winch they had no controul,
they could nut give toe whole bread et lite, sure y tt e
next best thing was to throw the crumbs as they were able

Lord MORPTH would not follow the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dundalk by entering into a discussion of the
principles and motives of individual persons, but would
only say that he bad great satisfaction in believing
that the Constituency he represented, and from part of
whom this petition had come, foimed not only an
enlightened, but a liberal and highly religious peo-
ple, and with respect to the petition, he could
vouch from his own knowledge that it was signed by
persons of great respectability and the highest con-
sideration in that part of the country. It seemed to him
that all the arguments of those who opposed the measure,
like those who formerly opposed Catholic emancipation,
were reducible to this,—that it would be highly desirab'e
if ti.e King had no Roman Catholic, but all Protestant
subjects; having Roman Catholics, however, it became a
question how it was practicable to deal with them.
Mr. SHAW said teat the Roman Catholics had not
been contented with the former plan—upwards of 3,000
had not long ago petitioned the House of Lords as friends
of Scriptural education. The great objection to the
present system was, nut that i.xtracts from tne Scriptures
were given, but that they were substituted fur the entire
Scriptures.
Mr. G. DAVISON considered this petition the offspring
of fiaud and vi oenee, and the system now proposed by
Government, he was quite certain, never could succeed in
Ireland.—(ll,tar. )
I.i.ra ALTHORP said, that as the Right Hon. Mem-
bet had uttered a prediction, he hoped the House would
keep it in r meniloance.
Mr. STANLEY had seen a letter from the Secretary
to the Commissioners of Edu ation, in which it was
stated that the number of schools to whiai assistance
already had been dff.riled was not less than 61, contain-
ing upwards of 14,000 pupils, and that applications
had been rec ived fioin 150 more achoils, containing
pupils at least to the same or much larger amount,
He b.•ggefl at the -.sine time to the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, that this numb.-r already in three months exceeded
the nunrier of applications on the Kildate street Siwie,y
000 ks for four yearis.—(Loild cries or " Hear, hear.")
The appl.cations hcd been made under the auspices of
Protestants and Carh•dics.

Lord MORPETH begged to srate that he had received
no intimation of the forgery of tickets, bur the charge of
violence he would most unequivocally contradict. He
could not accede to the H.oi. and Rigor Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, any claim ro .-xciusive inorali,y .ind piety.

Mr. HUME moved tor cert.in returns, the nature 01
which was not heard in the gallery.
SENTENCE OF DEATH BILL.

Mr. HUGHES moved r h4t the H..u.e resolve itself into
a Gontnittee on the Sentence of Death Bill.

Lord SANDUN put some questions to Lord Althorp,
relative to the sut jeet of slavery.
Lord ALTHORP did not consider it a very appropriate
time to enter on toe subject 01 slavery, at the moment the
House was going into Committee on the Sentence of
D ath Bill.

The House then hiving resolved itself into Committee,

Mr. HUGHES proposed that toe words " city of Lon.
don" be left out, and the words " caries of London and
Westminster" in,erted insiead.

Thia h wing been agreed to, the report was received,
and the Spe.iktr resumed toe chair.

SLA VERY.

Lord ALTHORP considered that it was now a fit
time to retiiy to the question which had been put by the
Nob!e Lord on the subject of slavery. The motion
to which he had referred, was not mare in conc. rt wit!'
Government—i,:deed, Government did not know its exact
nature. It was impossible for him (Lord A.) io say whether
the making of that motion would afford the proper oppor-
tunity for Government to state their views on this •iub-
jeet. It might, but it was impossible fur tdua to pledge
himself beforehand to any particular day.
Lord SANDON observed that after what the Noble
Lord had first said, he would du ale he caul i to avoid
pressing for a detail before it was convenient to Govern-
merit to give it.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS hoped the Noble Lord opposite
would have no objections, at all ev..nts, to assure the
House that he would be rirep-ned to bring forward the sub-
ject before the lapse of any considerable rime, say witnin
a week or two. In the preseacircuttistances of the colonies
it was of the utmost importance that the course Mi-
nisters meant to pursue. should not be held in any
degree of ambiguity. If the Nobe Lord made
this state Men, early, it might prevent a discussh,n en the
subjec,, when the Sugar Duties came before tne
House.—(Hear.) The Sugar Bill had been brought
in this year fur the unusual period of six months, thereby
imposing a great hindrance on that conunodity, and the
sooner the explanation was g yen, so much the better.

Lord ALYHORP could not plrdge himselt to any par,
ticular day, but certainly would, within a short ptriA,
bring forward the question.

CHOLERA.

Mr. DAWSON had been itiform-d that in the neigh-
bourhood of Grosvestior-square a woman and child had
died yesterday of the cholera morbus. An inquest hail
been held on the woman. The husband, an Irish
man, had behaved in an outrageous in Inner towards
the medical gen lemen who took up in themselves to state
the disease was cholera. He collected a vast number
of his countrymen who besieged the house where the
bodies la), and prevented th- parish officers from remov-
ing them. The scenes of discord that ensued were almost
unprecedented in this Mettopolis. and only to he coat-
pared to the serious combinations which had taken place
in Ire and to oppose the execution of the law. Etthet
yesterday or to-d iy, the busttand abused the medical men
for their treatment of ti.e woman, because, as he col
ceived, she did not die of the cholera. That very mail
hail this morning been ieized with the saute disease, and
he (Mr D.) Liu ,eratood, was at this moment dead.—
(Hear, hear.) Toe exci eaient, however, in th n igio-
bout hool had not terminated with this man's life, bet tone
the parish s:tficsrs wire yet prevented Eton entering to re-
move the bodies. Now, if ouch proceedings w• re allot ed
to go on in the very heart of this u►etrup.tlis, what di ead•
lul consequence• might ❑ot be exp ct.d. Thr Right lion
G. ntleinan ha i seen some of the pat is. officers this morn-
ing, I. tint whom hr underst. iod, that they it 5d applied to th
Seereta.y of State o ascertain whether they had authority
to force their as ay into the house to remove the bodies, or
whether a pokes force would he sent for the purpose.—
The present the Honourable Gentleman had to
view, in stating these citcumstances, was to make the
public acqu.iinted with the tact, that p-s eons who had
s.•t th. Inselveir up, Lind r d losion, io deny the existent•e
of ti:is disease in L.nititi, had, within a 'rely few
hours, themselves become its victarn..—( near, heat.)
unless his Majesty's Government intertvieti, unless ti.,
authori y of the law was ex,rted to prevent the 'prevali-iiee
of this notion, many simile• ' be ly:ng n all parts
the metropolis, to the great dartger of the community. fie
bagged to ask if his Majesty's Uuverninent would nut ill

On the motion ref Sir J. HOBHOUSE, the House
resolved itself into a Committee open the Army
Estimates. The Right Honourable Baronet said, that
in bringing forward the estimates for the military
service of the kingdom for the present year, he did
not ki.ov that it was necessary for him to enter at
length into any veryde,ailed statement, but at the sane
time he trusted that the Committee would par-
don him in making one or two short preliminary
remarks. In the first place he had to account
to the Committee for not presenting those esti-
mates at an earlier period, but when Le had stated the
reasons for the delay, he hoped he should be excused from
any charge of neglect. The fact was, that when
he first entered upon the office which he had now the
honour to hold, it was the hope of his Majesty's Govern-
ment—a hope that they did not cease to indulge in
for some time—that they would, be enabled to pro-
pose a reduction in that part of the military
expenditure under the head of the Land Forces.
On the part of his Majesty's Government it was their
Roost anxious wish to reduce as far as was possible, that
most important, and un'ortunately, that most enormous,
item of ti a public expenditure; but at the same time they
felt they had a great pubic duty to discharge,—they felt
that circumstances might occur which would justify them
in retaining the military establishment, as it at pre-
sent aloud, and, consequently, that the effect of any re-
duction at the present time of the military establishment
would, instead of decreasing, increase the military charges.
It was, however, as he had taken the liberty of stating,
the expectation of Gees nitent, tha they could have b-en
enabled to reduce the Land Forces, and iod•-ed, proposals
had keen made for that object, but events bad sin a occurred
which had rendered it nut only improper, but hiehly pre-
judicial to the country to make those reductions. That
being so, of course as gentlemen who had been acqu intrd
with army estirn item, they must will know that it was
not be expected that the same reductions, or anythiii
like thus.- which had taken place in the same branches
of the expenditure of the country, should tike place in
this part of the service. H (Sir J. C Holihouse) ad
however the satisfaction of stating to the House that
Government kid been enabled to wake certain reduc.,
tions which hr would state seriatim to the House, and
which, when the pirtscular v.-tea clone to be considered
in Committee, he should be ena,•led satisfactorily to
explain. Perhaps it might be muse for the conve-
nience of the Heuer, it' ke should go th,,,u•lh
eich of those votes, b.-fore he presented to their
consideration the votes for the Lane Forcer. In the
vote for the land forces, exclusive tit India, the re woo an
increase of 18,625/. in mound numbers. On the stuff,
excoisive of India, there was a decrease of 7 2471. Oa
the items for public departments there was a d• crea.e of
0! 892/ ; on medicines there was a decrease of 4281, I
on g irris ns, there watt a clucrea e of 1641 ; nn the
Royal Military College, there was a decrease of 2,8891.
on t e Royal Military Asylum, there was a &cute.- of
2,486/. ; on the Irish list there was a very large decrease,
tinely, 90 1951. on account of the vo!unt- er co, ps. On
the next vote, film regiments serving in the Eis; India
Cempany's territories, there was a decrease of 8,220/.
Let these items be .died together, and deduct fro:n them
18,6251., the amount of incre ice on the eff-ctive service,
and the result would be a reduction of 86.236/. With
respect to the non-, tfcctive branch, the ac.,runt was
e pially satisfactory. In cons, quince ef air name is
which had been very judiciously made ti fore he came into
office, the following reductions had been effected :—Arelv,
p iy of General Officers, 10,000/. ; full pay for eu,n.ed
officers, 5,30111. ; half pay and military allowaiiee,
21,300/.; allowances to retired officers of iniliti y 5e...,
8391 ; widows' p usions, 355/. ; compassionate fund,
5 5781. ; and super anuation allowances, 6,000/ Th,re,
o as an increase in the charge for the in and out pen-
sioners of Chelsea and K 11418111114111 110,0 .151. The ge-
neral result, therefore, of what he Fled lake, this lib. rt.y to
state to the House was a saving of 135,6081 in the
way which he had endeavoured to explain. The charge
for the effective army services Lir the year was
3.579 3731. ; for the non-effective a' toy services
2,734 9521.; making a total of 6,314,325/ lir would
now very shortly point out the difference between the
vote for the land force in 1831 and ii. 1832. The t dal
f tree of all rauks in 1831, was 109.048 own 1832,
109,198 men being an thereaer of 150 men. In the force
employed in_ the colonies there was an increase
of eight hundred arid thirty two omen ; rnakiug
a total increase of 982 men. Toe army was now.
within 1,336 wen of its lull establishment. It wag,
he knew, the opinion of many gentlern• it, that the
mode of keeping up the army by recruiting, anti
the system on which reserves at home were eonduetial for
the tiurpose of supplying the service abr. id might he he,
neficially altered. That wan a liree quzstien, end he had
appli.d himself to it with all the power wlocit be was ca-
p ,hie of exerting. It was, however, in his min t a very
doubtful point; arid considering the eau own to t! e
country. arid the present circuinetancett of Europe, the es,
isting system apps 'red to hint the moest appliclbie for pre-
serving the forces in a state of efficiency, suss, even in an
ectuonnicai view, it presented 'rimy aovantaues.—( Hear,
hear.) He hop if, however, that the question would ant
be introduced inci,fentally on the p. event occasion.
Whenever it was brought forward substan.ively, he should
he ready to go into it fulls. He should now state the dif-
ference of the charge fir 1831 and 1832. The ch ,rge for
the land hover in 1831 was 3,152,1541., the estimate fur
1832 is 3,170,7791., being an increase on the laud filters
alone of 18.8251. But in the nii.cellaneous dep "-talent
these was a decrease. as compared wit,. 1831, to 32 5321.
The increase had been chum fly caused by the return of at
r.-ginient from India, with a charge for a whole ye .r, sod
of two other regiments, with a charge for hall a year.
T'ie Right Hun. Baronet coneluded by moving, 't that
89,478 turn, exclusive of the regnareurs employ,' in the
East Indies, be g' anted for the laud service of his Ma-
jesty..
Sir H. PARNELL had heird with great disappoint-
ment, and -time degree of astonishmen,. the crush 'educ-
tion proposed in trite estimates. He had supposed that,
inure use would have hero mule of the p eparations witch
he had, while in office, conaidtred it to b his duty to
make with reference to the army estio;ates for this year.
As e had alw tys spoken his opinions vlaitrly on the sub-
j.., t of finance, hr thought it was nee vs ry eir.• the
Howe. some inf.., matron with respect to the course which
he meant to have pursued had he rein inied in
office. lie took ti.e office which he hid recentiy he
rather to put his own opinions to the test than to form
new ones. Bing eware of the inc-nventence produced
by delaying the estimates, he et ,ted his opinion on the
subject to the N.bl, Lor.l (AlCiOrp) no tqttly as October
list ; and on the 9, h of December he fail behire lost .n
ins ract of what he etinceis:d_th, se!n!, estauiate• ought
to be. The rff IA Of the; peari3rtill ,t1:4tr,11,1,11 that ah.tr.Ct
would have ieil to save the coutury, atinstelly* 600,0001. ;
old that, too. without dimineoling ter tkuiurele.l atimittit
ot the Artily, or roOttr,etio,,,! hoop it- rootluosen's. The
,rnerAl heads, r which lie was of opiniou that the ',iv.
logs which he suggested might be iff-ced. w-re the tot-
lowing the first m :states,btlnbingtack the land

ferees to the number to which they amounted at the period
of the present Adminietr.tien coming into offlee—namely.
to the numb-r at which they were left by the Duke of
Weli'neton—e coneieerahle reduction would he eff ere e
Secondly, he was of I that the erpence of the Wig-
gnn Train mieht be got rid of. He thought that, in tit.
next place, a cimsrlerobl- reduction mieht be made uiti
respect to the exp-nee of the recruiting department. Un-
der the head of the mess allewanc ~ he also thought th ae
some seeing mizi.t he male in this way. An allowance
had been granted some years sec under that heed, on ac-
count of the duty on win-, and as the cause had new
ceased, he thought that the el owence in goes ion should
also cease. It Appeered to him &lee, that as regarded the
extiensts of the t .ble for officecs at Si. James's a saving of
500/. might be effected in that instance by pl mine it ou
the same f ovine wit a aimil.r table in Dublin Castle ;
which. upon inquiry, he understoo.l ^se some (finely w ti
served. As to the riding establishment, he was of opinion
that it might he got rid of almge.her. The next material
reduction which he had euegesitd was under the head o
the public dep irtmente connected with the army. Leoltine
at theamount of the estimate, 28.0001. a yew for th- Horse
Gu rd., it appeared to him that a great saving, as well as
much more punctuality, might he effeetsd in that depart.
men% It appeared to him, further, that if the system of
army extraordinaries was got rid of, we could then get
rid of the comptiiillershipe of the army accounts, and the
mienr branches of shit office. He also thought that the
Road night he reduced, and that the Military
Cellece should hr coefined to mere instruction. Looking
at the expense incurred for Chelsea hospital, acid takir g
into consieeretion the duties performed there, he could
not shut his eyes to what took place in that establishment.
Wnat was his plan as regarded that portion of the public
experiditure? He was fur transferring tie: duties of the.
estetiliehinent, so far as recanted the payment of out-pen•
sinners, to a place where they would he better performed—
namely. to the War Office ; and he was for ketting rid of
:he whole establishment, as regarded in-pensioners, elto-
getleer. He believed that he could prove, to the satisfac-
tion of the House, that it was very difficult to get pen•
sinners to go in there, and that a great needless expense
was incurred in the maintenance of that part of the esta-
blishment. He was also of opinion that the present plan
of clothing the army should be changed, and in that in-
stance, too, he could show that a considerable saving
might be made to the public. There was not one of the
eonclusions to which he had come that he was not sure
he would be able to produce proofs in writing of their cor-
rectness ; and he was equally certain that he would be
able to establish, upou fully intelligible grounds, the v due
and propriety of the suggestions which he had made on
this subject to his Majesty's Government. He was tho-
roughly convinced that lie would be perfectly able to tie-
fend every reduction which he had proposed. He begged
to observe, that almost all the non-effective charges for the
last few years had been more or less increased. The pay
of the soldier was increased in 1806, and he admitted that
it was increased with r•ason then ; but one great reason
for that increase—to wit, the change in the currency—
had ceased to exist. Ile protested against the system of
dividing the army estimates into four divisions, and con-
tended that great simplification and a saving of expense
might be effected by consolidating them. He had made
this statement on this occasion with no hostile intention
towards his Majesty's :Ministers; he had made it in order
to show that while in office he had not departed from the
principles which he formerly professed, and he confessed
that he felt some disappointment at not being able to carry
into effect that which he ardently wished to do—namely,
the presenting the Army Estimates to the House arranged
in the shape he had just mentioned. He had an impres-
sion when he laid a draught of those estimates in that
shape before hi. Noble Friend, that he should not he sup-
ported in the way that he thought he night to be sup-
ported by his Maj. sty'. Government on the subject, and
he was sure his Noble Fiiend would hear him out in the
statement which he (Sir IL Parnell) then made to bias ;
that lie wou!d not continue to hold office unless he was
supported, as he conceived he ought to he, by the Go-
vernment, in carrying into effect the proposed reductions.
Lord ALTHORP said that what had just been stated
by his Right Hon. Friend rendered it necessary for him
to address a few words to the Committee. Hie Right
Hon. Friend had said, that when lie carne into office it
was to carry into effect those views which he entertained
while out of office; but his Right Hon. Friend would do
him (Lord Althorp) the justice to say, that he (Lord Al.
thorp) toll him at the time, that with regard to what-
ever views he would satisfy him were correct ones, he
should have his (Lord Althorp's) support. It was true
the. his Right Hon. Friend put a rough—a very reugh—
statement of tee reductions which he proposed into his
(Lord Althorp's) bands, in October last; but the Com-
mittee must see, that a subject which involved a great
change in the military system of the country was one
that required very deep and serious consideration.—( Hear,
hear.) Having the rough statement before him, witaout
the explanations, it was impossible for him (Lord Al-
thorp). in the absence of his Right Hon. Friend, to see
how fat they could be carried into practical effect. He
was sure that the Committee would agree with him in
thinking that his Right Hon. Friend near him tied
right, considering the short time he was in the office, to
claim some indulgence in bringing forward those estimate.,
on this occasion Hr was free to admit that in many of
the principle's which had b en stated by his Right Hon. '
Friend opposite, he coincided, hut unless they were
worked out into a prac•ical term, it wotald be impossible
fir him to concur in teeir application. Utiles, a consi-
derat-le change was made in the system of the Commender-
in-Chiet's office, it would he impossible to e ffect many of
t• e reductions which his R:glit Hon Friend proposed.
and it would require a great deal of time to discuss the
subject, and a greet ii, al of Labour to carry his views ion,
effect. With regard to the system of clothing the army.
it was true that his Right Hon. Friend had stared to him
a plan founded upon calculations which went to
sh•itv that a great reduction might he made in that
particular, but on hie ( Lord Althorp's) making in-
quiry amongst other persons possessed of a kn wedge
of the subject, he found that their calculations were
directly the reverse of those 0. his Right Hon Frieud—
that was to say, that they tended to prove that instead of
a saving, a small ,additional expense would arise trout the
ad •ption of his plan. Coder such circumstances, it did
appeer to him that a greet deal of time and deliberatinn
renulif be required to decide whether, in the suggestions
which he had made, his Right Hon. Friend wits righ or
wrong. His Right Hon. Friend had stated that the
Waggon Train rni ht he reduced, and lie (Lord Altliiirp)
was disposed to rgree with him on that polvt; but it
tie mention, d at the same time, that persona con-
versant. .arith the discipline of the at my errertained a tctaliy
differ.nt opinion, and maintained that it was absolutely •
necessary to preserve it, in order to keep up the efficiency
of the army. He doubted very much that his Right
Fri- rid would ever have been able to redm e to the amount
of 600,0001. as be had stated, consistently with the due
maintenance of the efficiency of the military force of the
court,' y. He doineed midi, too, that his Right Hon.
Friend would have been able to have effected, as he stated,
a reduction of 220,000/. in the present year. The re-
duction made in the present estimates, with, regard to the
military college, was a considerable one, and it was deter-
mined that this establishment should provide hereafter for
its own expen-es.—(Hear.) As to a reduction of the
army, he begged to say, that considering the general cir-
cumstances of this country, and of the world at the time,
though he (Lord Althorp) and his Hon. Colleagues hid •
entertained an anxione hope tap to the latest period, that
they could propose such a reduction in the land forces, they
did not think they would be justified in proposing such a
reduction at the present moment. That reduction de-
pended in a great degree on the confidence which the
Haulm was inclined to place in the responsible Ministers
of the Crown, who must take into consideration whether
the amount of forces kept in existence were aosolutely ire
swears or not. Now, looking at all the circumstaacee of
the country at the present moment, he did not think that
his Majesty's Government would be justified in proposing
in the present year a large reduction of the military force of
the country.—( Hear. )
Colonel DA VIES could not avoid expressing his surprise
that his Noble Friend opposite, who was a member of the
Finance Committee, and had voted there for every one ,if
those reductions, abouli be so long a time m making up
his mind to agree with the suggestions of his Right Hon.
Friend. Al that he had heard on this subject convinced
him of the absolute necessity of having this subject brought
under the consideration of a Select Committee. His Right
Hen. Friend had said that he would effect a reduction of
600,000/. ; but let them give him I C„Ionel Davies) a Se-
lect Committee, and he would show that a reduction of a
million ediliti nal might be made with regard to expenses
connected with the army. It he should be fortunate
enough to have a seat in a Reformed Parliament, the first
thing that he would do should be, to move the appoint-
ment of such a Committee as that which he now suggested.
He must say, that after the promises of the Noble Lord
and hie Rieht Hon. Frieseshroprposite, he was much dieep-
pointed in findiak that they hid not redeemed their pledces
as to retturtion in those estimates.
Sir H. PA RNELL observed, that his Noble Friend op•
posits had spoken of the statement which he Laid before
him in October, as a rough one ; but his Noble Friend
should recollect that he also laid before him at the same
jure, the official documents preinved at the War-uffice.

His (Sir H. Parnell's) suggestion, as to the military
college, related to the reduction of the military staff.
Lord ALTIIORP said, that the statement which his
Right Rua. Friend laid before him in the first instance
mer,iy a rough one, and that he afterwards laid be-
t• re him a great mass of papers, which would require
.treat deal of consideration before they could possible be
put into such a stare as that they might he brought fur-
yard in the shape if e.titnates.
Captain BOLDERO said, that the attack made by the
Right Hon. Member for the Queen's county was one of
tile moat unfair that could he mole upon the Right Hon.
Gentleman oppo.ite, the army, and the public. That
Right Hon. Member was not prepared, it cvou'd appear,
to make good a single one of his statements while he was
a office. In his (Captain Boldero's) opinion, the state-
ment made that ev.ning by the Right Hon. Secretary at
War was a most fair, lucid, and luminous one.

Sir H. HARDINGE would thke upon him to assert, as
a military man, and as one who had filled the offices of
Sevr.-tary to the Ordnance and S.-cretary at War, that had
he Right Hon. Baronet continued in office, and persevered
in his p?ans of reduction, the result would have been most
mischievous to our military efficiency. The R ght Hon.

Baronet relied too much on the mere arithmetical calculi.
tinny of civil clerks, for most of the subjects connected
with the office of Secretary at War could only be well
investieated by persons welt acquainted with military ar-
rangements. Such, for example, as the subject of military
elothing, which he could assure civilians was much more
intricate and important than, at first sight, must appear to
them. He would he prepared to meet the Right Hou.
Baronet whenever he brought forward hi, plans and me-
thods substantively before the Himse. At present he w uld
merely observe that he had heard with regret the Noble
ancelaar of the Exchequer declare, with app.rent satisfac-
tion, that after tliree years the public would be put to no
expense fir the education of the orphan sons of officers
(20) at the military college. This reduction would justly
occasion great dissatisfaction in e army, and in a national
point of view was highly injudicious. The French, with
whose system of public expenditure the Right Hon. Baronet
was just now so much enamoured, bestowed not less than
501. each per annum on their military youths: and even
in the United States not less than from 400 to 500 per-
sons received a military education at West Point College.
at the expense 0? the state. Even on a question of pence,
the reduction could not be great for educating the twenty
orphans hitherto educated at t. e mili ary college. He
differed from the Right Hon. Baronet also as to the policy
of reducing the waggon-train establishment (at present
only 100 men for teaching) further. The estimate fixed
but 100 men for this country, while in France, 4,500
were employed in the same important service. The tact
was, that the waggon-train would be actually inefficient
on the breaking out of a war, without some training during
peace, and for that purpose at least 11.0 men were abso-
lutely necessary. The gallant officer concluded with con-
gratulating Sir J. HoChouse on the promise which his
official career—short as it was—held out of reductions and
improvements in the War-office, without impairing the
general efficiency of the service.
Sir H. PARNELL begged the Right Hnn. and gal-
lant officer to bear in mint, that while he (Sir H. Parnell)
conceived that there was an interest, to which the merely
army interest was secondarv,—namely, the public inter-
est,—(Hear)—the gallant oftcer, like most other military
men, seemed to think there was no interest to be crinsi
der,d but that of the army.—(Hear) The Secretary at War
should virtually be the trustee of the public, and as such,
a check upon the tendency of military men to advance
tht r own profession at the expense of the pull c —(Hear.)
Mr. HUNIE regretted very much that one so well ac-
quainted with our financial arrangements, and so compe-
tent to make every reduction in our public establishments
not injurious to their real efficiency, as Sir H. Parnell, was
not in office so as to afford Ministers the aid of has inva-
Idoable counsiel.—(Hear.) He was sure that if he was,
there would be a reduction in the mere eff.ctive force of
the army, by which 1,200,0001. would annually he saved
to the public, and that we should not have so many useless
boards, and staff officers, and sinecures, and pension-, as at
present pressed upon the industry of the country. He was,
contrary to Sir H. Hardinge, rejoiced that the establish-
ment in which, under the pretext of educating 20 orph in
sons of officers, a military staff, with an officer at a salary
of 1,000/. per annum, besides house end et ceteras, was
about to be saved to the public; and he hoped the day was
not far distant when we should have one great consoli-
dated military school, in which the regular army, the
ordnance and the East India Company's officers, would re-
ceive a proper military education. The gallant ex Secre-
tary at War had urged the expediency of our keeping up a
waggon-train force in peace, on the example of France;
but our insular position precluded us from the necessities of
France, who, besides from the force of ciretainstinces, was
compelled to maintain a war establishment in every branch
of her service. The fact was, that war-establishments
during peace were doubly objectionable. They, in the
first instance, unnecessarily increased the public burdens;
and, in the nett, made the Government too ready to
meddle with force in matters of no national interest,
as was the case with Mr Canning's wild goose-chase
expedition, in 1626, to Portugal.—( Hear.) Ministers
would find much more pr otitable employment at hotne, in
lessening the national hardens, and promoting the arts of
peace. A pruning knife was much wanting in our over-
grown pension and htif-pay lists. Then there was the dead
eight, now 2,500,000/., though Lord Castlereagh, so
far hack as 1818, deciared that it would annually die
away, at the rate of 74 per cent. per annum. Where
waa the necessity of our keeping up, in this s venteenth
year of peace, not less than 89,000 men, exclusive of ar.
tillery, navy, Ice., being 8,000 men more than the amount
when the Dukt. of Wellington was in office? Was it the
state of the country, particularly of Ireland, that required
such an immense military force? Were there not grie-
vances to he remedied, which, if remedied, would no longer
require such a monstrous addition to public burdens ?
Was it not in fact a truth that the better the arlininistra-
tier' of the Gov rnivent, the less wart the aid of force re-
quired ?—(Hear. ) Let Ireland meet with fair play and
even-handed justice, and there would be no occasion for
our keeping up there an immense force,—a force which
would not, it even increased to 50,000 fighting inert, he
sutheiegt to perpetuate the abuse of its present monstrous
church es,ablisiiment, should any Government be insane
enough to make the attempt.—(Hear.) He saw no rea-
son why Ireland should not be put upon the foot-
ing of Scotland. The rensan that Scotland required so
small a military force was, ti at she bad so tea* com-
plaints, for there was no difference as to religi n, and
no struggles as to predominance of patti. s. In the
last year there Lad been in Scotland only 2,000
or 2,500 men, garrisons in E iinhurgh a.d Stir-
ling,
to keep up what might he necessary in case of
an emergency. Than, with respect to V.e colonies, why
should t ere be a greater force kept up in Canada and
Nova Scotia than the whole regular srtny of the United
States; and wily should we, with a fleet superior to that
of the world, keep up garrisons in places we could re-
lieve aL any moment, and without any interrupti-n? Still
however, tin :er existing circumstances, and while Minis-
ters were engaged in endeavouring t.. carry into effect a
measure which would defeat all attempts at extravagant
xpenditure, and having a firm confidence in them that
they would make ever) reduction p risible, he would not
move for any diminution of the force proposed.
Mr. A. BARlNG.—Although he as little approved of
useless expenditure as his Hon. Friend the Member for
Middlesex, was nevertheless of opinion that the state of
this country, with masses of manufacturers, subject to oc-
casional distress, and that of Ireland much agitated, re-
quired that the military force of the country should be
kept up to the number proposed.

Mr. HUNT contrasted tilt; observations of Sir John
llnbi.ouse, as Minister at War, with those he had made as
the enemy of standing armies, and said that he bad re-
ceived that morning resolutions e❑tered into at Hudders—
field, declaring that the erpence of clothing one soldier
was as much :as would supply eleven manufacturers.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE fet it was necessary for him to
explain the circumstances in which he found himself upon
entering into the situation of Secretary at War. One
might imagine, from the speech of the Right Honourable
Baronet, that when he went out of office, he lett behind
him a regular plan of reduction, which his sue. essor had
nothing to do but to act up.di. It was undouleedy true
that the Right Honourable Baronet did leave in the Army
Office a great mass of pipets ; but they consisted of loose
essays, table, and general c dculations, and were intended
to form, as he conceived, an extreme statement of what,
under a different system, En-gilt he carried into effect.
There was riot, however, any specific proposition fur the
estimates of the present year. lie bad taken all the
strongest points of the Hon. Gentleman's calculations
into consideration, and effected a reduction in every one of
them, with the exception of that which had been the
subject of acme conversation in the course of that even-
ing. With respect to the other matters to which the
Right Hon. Baronet had adverted, they were of so much
importance, and required so muco attentive consideration,
that he could hardly expect that a Secretary, who had not
been more than two months in office, could be prepared
with any specific measure. In answer to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Middlesex, is ho had complained if the amount of
the dead weight and the military establishment of the
country, he would state, that neither the present Govern-
ment, nor the preceding Administration, were to be blamed
for the existence of time dead weight. It was now impos-
sible to get entirely rill of it; but no opportunity ought

tu be lost of gradually renlueing it. The amount of the
military establishment was a question of general politics.
it depended on the state of our colonies, of Europe, and of
this country ; but this he would say, that the Government
would not be blow to propose reductions, whenever the
condition of the country would permit them.
Sir H. PARNELL had nor left only loose and general
calculations at the War-office, hot a specific paper,
leaded " An Abstract sr Statement showing the sums
voted under the princip .1 heads of the estimates of 1831,
and the r-duction proposed to be made in the estimates to
he voted in 1832." This paper was the result of eight
months' continual application, and exhibited what might
be done in the way of reducing the expenditure of

the army.
Mr. HUME said, that the half•pay list was so great,
that every method should be adopted for the purpose of re-
ducing it. He thought that a certain proportion of all
fresh appointmen's ought to he taken from the half-pay hats.
S rJ. HOBHOUSE was understood to s:y, that this
was a matter over which he had no contruil.
Mr. HUNIE said, that that Wai whet he complained of
The Commander-in-Chief possessed all the power ; and
the Secretory at War was nothing more than a clerk to
register his &crops.
Lord ALT HORP could not agree in the statement made
by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that the Secretary at
War was nothing hut a clerk to the Commander in-Chief.
It was right th it the Commander-in-Chief should have
the discipline of the army order his management, and
that the Secretary at War should possess a controul over
the finances.
Colonel EVANS thought that the half-pay list should
be more reduced than it was. The higher ranks of the
army were filled up in a most improper manner ; and it
was a fact, that thirty or forty regio..-nts were com-
manded by persons who lout seen little nr nothing of actual
service. He conceived that the command of a regiment
should n..t be ooen to purchase.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. C. WYNN said it was impossible to effect any di-
minution of the charge for tie army, except by a reduc-
tion of the num' er of men ; but when he looked at the
'date of affsirs abroad, as well as the situation of a plr-
tion of the British empire, he felt that this was nit a

time when lfinisters c“uld aft!), propose? any reduction of

. .
the military force. It wi the du,y of Mincoters, and he
h ,prd that they would not flinch from it, to employ a suf

fic;ent force to enable the law to be carried into execution
ill Ireland.

Cap'ain BOLDERO suggested that a considerable sav-
ing might be effected by taking about 20,000 men front
the dead weight, which at present amounted to 90,371
men, and sending them to g orison Malta, Gibraltar, New
South Wal s, and the Cape of Good Hope. These men
might be obtained at an expen.ie of about 20/. p•r man,
which would be a saving of 12/. per man upon the present
rate of payment.
Mr. R. GORDON said, that the saving which his
Right Hon. Friend had been able to effrct amounted to
only 14 000/. It this were the only saving which could
be made out of an expenditure of 4 388,0001.. he must
conclude that he and other Hon. Members had been wast-
ing their time, during the last fifte,-n years, in endeavour.
ing to force the Tory Administration to make reductions.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that, taking into conside-
ration the events which had occurred at Bristol,Worcester.
and elsewhere, and the present sttte of J imaica, there was
no reason to blame Ministers for having made a reduction
to the extent of only 14,000/. It would not have been
a matter of surprise; if they had presented an increased
estimate.

Colonel EVANS said the plan of employing part of t e
dead weight in garrisons wool,], in the end, prove to he
no saving.

Mr. HUNT moved, as en amendment, that the number
of men be reduced to 61,000, w,ich wee the amount of
the army wl en a Tory Administraion left office.
The amendment was negatived, and the original motion
agreed to.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE then moved that 3,170,709/. be
granted for defraying the charge of the land forces for the
ensuing year.

Mr.HUNIE asked whether Government intended to
get rid of the txpmnse of the recruiting department.
Lord ALTHORP said that the subject was under con-
sideration.

The vote was then agreed to.
The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to
be received to.cnorrox.

On the tn,tion of Lord ALTIIONP, the Sugar Duties'
Bill was read a third time.

TITHES IN IRELAND.

On the motion of Mr. STANLEY, the House resolved
itself into a Committee on the Irish Tithes.

The 4th resolution being read by th. Chairman,

Mr. LAMBERT decla-;ed himself opposed to the reso
lotion, and complained th it the conduct of landlords in
general, and more especially of the Irish landlords was too
frequently made a theme of reproach in that House. From
his knowledge of the state of Ireland, he earnestly en-
treated his Majesty's 3linister not to persist in pressing
any resolution having coercion for its object. The lion.
Member then moved as an amendment, " That the sum
advanced by his Majesty's Government for the relief of the
clergy of the Established Church in Ireland, shall he
raised, for the purpose of repayment. by such means as
the legislature shall adopt fur the future support of the
clergy in that part of the United Kingdom."
Mr. DAWSON was ready to support Government to
the utmost in all the resolutions submitted to the House,
with the exception of that which related to the extinction
of tithes. Ile would take this course, because he believed
that the Right lion. Gentleman by whom the resolutions
had been introduced was sincerely, and in his heart, at-
tached to the established religion of the country. In off-r-
-ing a measure of relief, there should, however, be a pledge
trona Government that the rights of the clergy were to be
no way compromised in consequence of accepting it; and
there should hkewime be an understanding, that the people
who had resisted a just dein ind shou:d be obliged to pay
by (he strong arm of the executive, backed by The Legis-
lature of the rouatry. Much calumny had !men thrown
an the Irish Protestant Clergy, than whom he contended
there could not be a more upright, charitable, or zealoua
body of Christian ministers. The question on the present
occasion was, whether tithes were to be got rid of, and the
rights of the Protestant clergy sacrificed, to clamour or to
romantic nations. He hoped that Government would put
down the turbulence now springing up in Ireland, which
would ruin all its institutions.

CHARIIAN contended that tithes to the full
amount here exacted in bei.md, or why should landlords
p.iy them otten in kind ? If measures of coercion were re
qiusite, and he (lid nor deny it, let them he resorted to ;
nut first rem: dy the grievances which rendered them ne-
cessary. Tile difference between him and the R7ght
Secretary for Ireldnd was only as to the mode 01 dealing
with the evil.

C. FERGUSON declared his intention of giving
his vote in support .4 the proposition of Ministers. be.
muse he considered it likely to be productive of benefit to
Ireland,—a counriy whose interests he bad warmly at
heart. He considered that there was a strong necessity
for some prompt remedial me.tsure for the tuonstrou-
systi us of tithe collection which existed at present in Ire-
land. Government might take as a model for a better
system the tithe system of Scotland, where the tithes had
been valued and fixed by law, and where they were con-
sidered as a fund subject to the maintenance of the eergy.
Mr. AICLLINS said I feel my-elf called upon to declare
my cordial concurrence in the view taken by the two last
resolutions by the Hon. Member for Wicklow, and many
other lion. Members, during the progress of this debate.
With respect to the resolution immediately before the
House, I cannot but deem it exceedingly impolitic at the
present moment, and likely to be productive of the worst
consequences, becau'e I sin firmly convinced, now that
the people of Ireland perceive that an alteration in the
system 9, touch and so justly complained of is not only
contemplated, but determined on, by his Majesty's Minis-
ters, they will readily and rejoicingly come forward, and
without even the application of those coercive measures
which are at present in force, pay up die artear as far as
their means will admit. This assumption Omse best ac-
quainted with the real causes of the opposition to the pay-
ment of tithes in Ireland will readily support. Whence
arose this opposition ? Was it from distress ? Was it
from inabili-y on the part of the people to answer the
demands made upon them ? No, Sir, it proceeded from
an unanimous determination to bring about the abolish-
ment of an impost which was oppressive, not s• much
from it, amount as its injustice.—(Hear. hear.) Having
therefore a fair--I may say a certain—prospect of sue.
cess,—knowing that much will and ought to depend on
their compliance with the law 83 it at present stands—au
long as that law shall exist, is it to be supposed that
they will be such fools to their own interests, as, by
a continued opposition to obstruct the good intentions of
the Government, and dari.en the bight prospects that are
dawning upon tnern? I cannot believe it. Under these
circumst oices, therefore, I doubt not that any person who
will view with an unprejudiced rye the real state of the
case, will readily admit that compulsory measures, how-
ever justifiable and bentficial on other occasions, on this
can have no other effect than fomenting and perpetuating
that spirit of animosity and which at the present
moment prevails to such an alarming extent in Ireland,
and destroying the anticipated good effects of the promised
boon by the measure ot impolitic and uncalled-for severity
with which it is coupled.—(Heir, hear.) These, Sir,
are toy =civet for opposing the further consideration of

this resolution; and I feel assured I am supported in such
opinions by all who have impartially considered the sub-
ject; and in conclusion, I will say, therefore, to his Ma-
j .sty's Ministers,—" Try the people of Ireland far a time.
and if they do not prove themselves worthy of the trust,
frie same power to apply f.r extraordinary measures th it
exists at the present room-nt will he equally available in
a future se-sion : you will then have reason and justice on
your side, and cannot i❑ reason and justice be opposed ;"
hut let me beseech his Majesty's Ministers to abandon for
the present a resolution so uncalled for, and give a fai'
trial before they conelemn.—(Hi-ar, hear.)

Sir C. WETHERELL called the attention of the Com-
mittee, not to the manner in which these resolutions
would' affect Ireland, but to the wanner in which they
would affect England —a topic hitherto unnoticed by the
different speakers in this debate. fie knew of no such
law in England or Ireland as the patriarchal law laid
down by many of the Hon. Members who had that night
addressed them on the subject of tithes, and he hoped his
Majesty's Government would not allow themselves to be
led away by what those Hon. Gentlemen had so confi
dently urged and asserted. By the terms of the proposed
resolutions the Ministry were really abolishing tithes with-
out naiking any provision for a substitute ; for he contended
th it commutation, or a rent charg was nor a substitute.
If they pressed this plan, they would he following the ex-
ample pursued by James 1., with respect to Scorkad, arid
which led to the abolition of the Scotch Bishops and the
confiscation of the property of the Church. Tne Go-
vernment should have first proposed a resolution to the
House ,or adoption, to the e•ffeet that it was expedient to
abolish the li lab and English Church, before they had
pursued the cour•e they now proposed.
After a few words from Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON, iu
explanation,
Mr. BAINBRIDGE regre.ted that he was not able at
an earlier stage 14 the it bate to ffer his reasons for opposing
them ; but as to those now under di.cu•sion, the Right
Hun. Gentleman proposed tre nude of repayment fir the
advanee made last night, and in so doing stated that he did
not ask that new or extraor•tinary powers should be gi anted
to the Attorney-General, but mere.y such a cut tailment of
the forms of Court and of pleading as would render any sum•
mary that which they would designate as justice, but which
they would both agree in calling conviction ; in othrr words,

the Right Hon. Gentleman did not shape his motion that
power should be given to the Crown to break open the
door of a house, but merely that the inhabitmt should
be. pr. vent d from fastening his doer, or preventing
intrusion. He would pass the question how far passive
resistance was a breach of the law for even the prima facie
report. the Grand Jury finding, admits that in the great
m ,jority of parishes the resistance is of a mere passive na-
ture, in some, perhaps many, little more than in this more
fortunate part of the Empire, every one of the numerous
Sueiety of Friends thinks it his duty to oppose to this same
impost of tithes, and the breach of the law being the
same, if the Quakers were here as numerous as the Catho-
lics in Ireland, there would be the same necessity fur a
law ; but. if a resistance merely passive, was such a breach
of the law as to call for the grant of new and extraordinary
powers to extend over a whole island, and which, from
the remote districts where they are to be exercised, though
the greatest care be used and the purest iiitenti.ms mani-
fested, must be liable to great abuse. He would pray the
Committee to notice that these resolutions did not aim at
preventing future evil. ; they proposed, that as one
party was without its dues it should be relieved, and that
the same party should be enabled, by means of the Attor
racy General, to punish such individuals as it night please
that party to point out. The Resolutions did not propose
that re-payment shoulsl be levied on the parish ; they did
not propose levying on all the defaulters ; they proposed
that a selection should be made. And he would ask, who
was to make it? Must not the clergyman produce his
books? Must he not point out who had and who had not
paid his dues? Must it not he from his knowledge of
the habits and character of those under his pastoral
charge ?—(Hear, hear.) And if he be not resident,
'oust it not be from the watement of his agent. or his

tithe proctor that the election must be made. Was the
clergyman, his acent, or the tithe proctor free from human
failings and human weaknesses, and could they doubt that
this power would not he used to revenge past injuries,
and gratify past enmitie,? lie should leave to the land-
lords of Ireland to point out the consequences which must
ensue if this resolution were carried into OE ct. Most

Hon. Members had heard that great part of this distress of
Ireland was attributed to want of capital—many were
aware that it was a custom iu Ireland to leave in the
tenants' hands an arrear of half•year's rent, too often part
of the capital of his farm. Did they think that the I +rid-
lord would leave this to be seized by the clergyman? No.
On the first rumour of an Attorney-Generai's process, he
would distrain, and then the Attorney-General might
bring the thousands of actions which this resceution
enabled him. He might fill the gaols—he would leave
misery and desolation, where he found poverty and wretch-
edness; but tl.e arrears of tithes and his costs he would
not get, and each person selected would fancy himself un-
justly pointed out, and animosities deeper than those of
religion would be engendered. His principal objection
to the last resolution was its indefinite nature, and the
time that must elapse before they could consider. The
House had in former years gone a step further than ti+ey
were now called upon, and no results came ; and now.
with the questions it the Bank and the circulation, India,
Its territories and patronage ; colonies, poor ; and tss enty
others, is is impossible to consider it till a peat lapse of
time, during which the Catholics are labouring under the
same irritation, and the agitation of all classes of religion
must increase. For those reasons he could not agree, and
as respected the present resolution, he begged to say that
never would he give his consent that the claim of one

individual upon another should be redressed by means
of the iinmen.e and irrevonsible power of the Attor-
ney. General. It was arraying subject against subject,
but unjustly arming one with the power and irrespon-
sibility of the Crown—it revived that practice so pro.
ductive of litigation and animosities, against which the
.tatute of William, the gre it restorer of our liberties, was

direct.d, which proved one subject, for his own benefit, to
sue t;irough the law officer of the Crown another su'lect,
it prevented the irr,sponsihdity of the Crown being as
monied a shield by a subject. The clergyman and the farmer
are the parties here, and he could nut imagine that that
,Jractice which our ancestors laind injurious in Englam',
and against which trey legislated, would prove beneficial
iv b,w teed iu Irel4nd.

Sir E. SUGDEN o'•jected to this country being called
upon to pay the tithes due by those in Ireland who had
-ccasioned distress to the clergy of that country, by their
oppositio❑ to the laws of `l:e !and, though be was willing
,o relieve those who were distressed by such nppo•ition.
True it was said that ti e opposition sv,s nothing more

_ .
than a passive resistance, as several Hon. Metitb;rm had
thought fit to designate a confirmed opposition to the laws,
but tic thought this passive resistance was even worse than
teheliion itself ; and if the doctrines held north by th -
Mem .er for Wexford, and other Hon. Gentlemen
were to go forth, the same " passive resistance" would he
soon found in this country to the payment of tents. He
begged to remind the Hon. Members 1.1 the oath they had
taken to maintain the settlement of the rights of the Church
as by law established inviolate, and he ton en.4d that the
res,lutions before the 11,u, went to the complete length
of attackin,, those rights It such inroa ,s were to be
m ,de by Parliament as at present constituted, there would
be nothing left for a Reformed Parliament to do.
After a few words from Mr. LAMBERT in explanation,
Mr. HUNT rose to move, "that the Chairman do report
progress, and ask .eave to sit again."
Mr. STANLEY put it to the House whether, after five
nights' discussion on the whole question, it would not so

fir accommodate the Government as to consent to the re
maiming resolutions by which he would be enabled to
bring in the 8111, when the whole question could again be
fully debated, and discus.ed thr..ugh the various stages of
that Bill. He himself had not, nor should be endeavour
to thwart or impede the discussion of the subj,,ct of which
he was as determined in his support as Hon. Members
'premed to be in their opposition, and he would ask of the
House to assist so far in the public business of the country,
as to permit the resolutions to pass their present stage.
Mr. HUNT said it was disgraceful to be discussing- so
important a question at the present advanced hour of the
night, and he should, even if unsupported by any Irish
Member, persist in his motion.
A long conversation on the subject of the adjournment
of the consideration of the question then ensued, in which
Mr. Leader, Lord Althorp, Mr. Wye., and Mr. M. O'Con-
nell, took part. At length
Mr. STANLEY had sought the passing of the resolu-
tions men-1y as a matter of convenience to the House ; but
seeing so strong a feeling in favour of the adjournment, he
should not offer any fu. ther opposition to it.
The House then resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit again this day.

The other Orde: a of the Day were then (ii.pcsed of, and
the Howie adjourned at Hall-past Two o'clock.

A Convocation will be held to-day, in which
a petition to the House of Lords against the Reform Bill will
be proposed from the Chancellor, Masters, and Scholars of the
University of Oxford.

By the desire of the Bishop of London, great
part of the collections on the Fast day, at the places of worship
at the West end of the town, are to be transmitted to Bethnal_
green, and the other impoverished parishes,

LOPsDON,
THURSDAY EVENING. MARCH 29, 1832.

Considering the immense savings which Sir
JAMES GRAHAM has effected upon the Navy
Estimates, and the pretty fair curtailment of the
Civil List by Lord A LTHORY, the public are
not likely to be satisfied with the Army E,ti-
mates, brought forward last night by Sir J. C.
HoßliousE. The country has expected more
from an Ultra-Radical Secretary atiWar, than he
is either willing or able to effect. Sir JOHN
pleads " the late events in the West Indies and
elsewhere" in justification of retaining a larger
force by 8,000 men than that proposed by the
Duke of WELLINGTON. " Elsewhere" is "a
villainous phrase"—and we cannot deal with it,
but we must observe that the Estimates were
prepared long before the live events in the West
Indies were heard of. Sir JOHN'S reductions
upon the effective force amount to 80,3731., and
on the non-effective force to 172,9541. The ta-
lents of Sir JoHN have always been beyond
dispute, and they are sti ongly exemplified
in the happy rapidity with which he has
caught the official no-meaning generalities and
diffusions of verbiage, hitherto so omnipotent
upon Treasury Benches, and so repugnant to
Whig and Radical Opposition Members. " Upon
the whole, he thought the system which at pre-
sent prevailed was, considering the whole of the
circumstances, the best calculated not only to
preserve the efficiency of the force, but to effect
the greatest possible economy." This was enough
to hare evoked the admiring shade of CASTLE-
REAGH from Elysium, or " elsewhere ;" or to in-
spire Lord BEXLEY with renovated integrity of
Finance. Sir H. PARNELL explained the rea,ons
of his quitting office, and they are certainly honour-
able to him, though we could have wished that
he had resigned at o»ce, rather then hesitate so
long, finding himself opposed in his views of re-
trenchment. This most able of our financiers, and
most honourable of our public characters, pro-
posed reduction to the• extent of 600,0001.,
" without diminishing the scale of forces kept
up by the Duke of WELLINGTON. Sir HENRY
proposed reductions in the Waggon Train,
the Recruiting Service, the Mess Allowances
(to the Aristocratic Corps, the best able to
pay for their own dinners), the Riding
establishments, the Horse Guards, the Comp-
trollers of Army Accounts, the Medical Board,
and the Military College. Some of these de-
partments are notoriously mere jobs, and others
are saturated with corruption. In the Ldhpu-
Lion deductions of Sir J. C. HOBIIOUSE, we
are extremely sorry to see that he has deducted
5,5781. from the Compassionate Fund. When.
ever our Rulers make deductions, it is always
at the expense of the widow, the orpha», or
the friendless underlings of the service. The
rich cormorants enjoy impunity to the last. Sir
H. PARNELL proposes the abolition of the
office of the Comptrollers of Army Accounts.
This we do not understand, for the examinations
of accounts by the Comptrollers is effective,

whereas that by the Audit Board is a mere
farce—although rather an expensive one.

The total amount paid to the Commissioners
for the Reduction of the National Debt, in con-
sideration of annuities to individuals, under 10
Geo. IV., c. 24, and up to sth January, 1832,
is as follows :
For Annuities for Life £'2o6Al7 it 0
For Annuities for Terms of Yen 9,V29 0 0

:2113,315 0 0

Annuities Granted for Life 78,16t 19 6
Ditto for Terms of Years 1,387 II 6

£79,552 1l 0

An account of all sums received and paid by
the Commissioners of the National Debt, on
account of Saving Banks and Friendly Societies
in Great Britain and Ireland :