The Sun.
London, England, 1835-09-04 00:00:00

were money clauses, and if all the House were for it in its
present shape, it could not for matter of form be agreed to.
It is a most painful thing, my Lords, for the clergy of Ireland.
lam glad to hear that the evil is to be mitigated—that it is
an act of fitness, and I will further say of propriety, towards
the poor clergy of Ireland, who are now suffering for the faults
of 'others in the rejection of the measure.
Lord FARNHAM said that the House was most grateful
for the warning of the Noble and Learned Lord, whether it

vas meant in kindness or in censure ; but he seemed to think
that Noble Lords on this side of the House were in a state of
lenitence for what they had done. He (Lord Farnham) should
ave been in a state of penitence if he had not pursued the
line of conduct now condemned ; and if Noble Lords had,
for the sake of compromise with the interests of the existing
clergy, given their support to a principle of confiscation—had
they done so, they would have deserved the reprobation of the
country. He knew that the Bill had been framed on a reso-
lution of the House of Commons. With all deference to that
House, he said that the whole difficulty of the situation arose
from that resolution. He admitted that with consistency to
themselves, the existing House of Commons must insist on
the adoption of that resolution.—( Hear, hear, from the Minis-
terial benches.) That was the folly—he might say the wicked-
ness—of the thing.
Lord HA THE RTON said that the Noble Duke had said
that he believed that the design of those who introduced the
measure was the destruction of the Church of Ireland. He
was sure that the Noble Duke could entertain no such opinion.
If he shared that opinion, attached as he was to the doctrine
and discipline of the Church of England, no consideration on
earth should have induced him to support that measure—
( Hear, hear)—but the more he considered the question,
the more he was impressed with the conviction that the
sinecures of the Establishment were the weak points to the
defence of the Establishment through which the enemy at
any time might enter and call the Establishment itself in
question on grounds the most unfavourable to it.—( Hear,
bear.) He greatly sympathised with the sufferings of that
class whom the rejection of this measure would affect.
Their respectability and piety were equal to those of our
own clergy ; but he denied that any part of their suffer-
ings was to be attributed to the Government with which
he had been connected, or to the present Government.
Their Lordships had had the opportunity of settling the
tithe question last year. It was then told them, that if they
rejected that, the measure of the following year would be one
of a different kind. They did reject it, and had done so again
this year. Next year, a further measure, with conditions,
might be presented, and it would come with an increased feel-
ing among the gentry of England that the conditions ought
to be accepted, and with an increased desuetude of the pay-
ment of tithes, which was deeply to be regretted, but which
was their Lordship's own work ; and it would come, too, with
the remonstrances of the working clergy of Ireland, who would
then shake themselves free from the authority which their
diocesans had hitherto exercised over them, by which they had
been controlled, and their Lordships misled.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed that the measure of next year would not be mo-
dified, as their Lordships wished it, by the delay.
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A had as great an attachment
to the Church as the Noble Lord, but he could not consent
to be a party to the atrocious confiscation and sacrilegious ap-
propriations of the resources of the Church propose by this
Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that the two parts of the
Bill were as distinct from each other as would be a Bill for
the benefit of Kent and a Bill for the benefit of Worcester-
shire. If there was any agitation in Ireland, it would rest
with the Government, and not with the Noble Lords on his
side of the House. He denied that the gentry of England at
all favoured the present Bill, or would consent to a mea-
sure which must lead to 'the destruction of the Church of
Ireland. He denied that the Irish working clergy were in
favour of it ; and the manner in which they had been treated
by the Government had universally raised the indignation of
this country. Their treatment was an act of cruelty, but the
Government would never be able to effect that which he charged
it with—desiring the destruction of the Church of Ireland:—
( Hear, hear.)
Lord FIT ZGB BALD was not disposed to prolong this
subject, which was one of a painful nature. Without mean-
ing to contradict the Noble Lord opposite, or doubt his op-
portunities of knowing the sentiments of the clergy of Ire-
land, he felt it his duty, as connected with that country, and
having known it as intimately as the Noble Lord who had
resided there but a few months, to deny the statements
made with respect to the sentiments of the working clergy.
Lord PLUNKETT did not seek to bring back the debate
of some nights ago, and to go into the question of the appro-
priation clause, but he must say that it appeared as if the No-
ble Lord had availed himself of this extraordinary occasion
to give vent to somt dissatisfaction he might have felt
that the ascendancy of his talents in s this House, as
exercised upon the Bill relating to the Irish Church and
the Alunicipal Corporations Bill, was not likely to realize such
triumphant results as he had at first calculated upon. The
Noble Lord had charged views of destruction and an in-
tention to spoliate the Protestant Church in Ireland against
those who differed from him in their views of this
great question.—(No, no.) He begged pardon, such an
intention had been directly charged by the Noble Duke ( Wel-
lington) ; contrary to the spirit which usually characterized
the tenor of his observations, that Noble Duke did last night
state that the object of his Majesty's Government in bringing
forward this measure was to destroy the Protestant religion.
Now that was a bold assertion.—( Hear, hear.) He was not
one of the Government, but as an individual connected with
it, he must throw back, with every degree of indignation, the
charge that he was concerned in any measure for the destruc-
tion of the Protestant Church. What would the Noble
Lords on the other side feel if he were to say that the Oppo-
sition was influenced solely by a desire to turn out the Govern-
ment that they might take their places, and that their throw-
ing out of the various measures which they had rejected ori-
ginated in a factious purpose? He must think that he should
not be justified in making such an assertion ; and surely the
same justice which Noble Lords would call upon them to pay
they were entitled to receive.—( Hear.) He declared solemnly
and conscientiously—and he trusted they had consciences on
both sides of the House—that in giving his assent to the appro-
priation clause, he felt he was doing that which, under all the
circumstances in which the unfortunate Church of Ireland
was placed, was not only the best thing that could be done
to provide for the Alinis.ters of the Church, but also for giving
stability to the Establishment.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
With respect to the clergy of Ireland, he would not pretend
to say that his knowledge was as accurate or as extensive as
his Noble Friend's, but lie was unquestionably not a total
stranger to the opinions of that respectable body. He had
conversed with many of them, and he had learned from others
the sentiments which were supposed to be entertained by the
body at large. Such being the amount of his information, lie
would declare that he never met with one who did not express
his regret at the rejection of the measure of last session.—( A
Noble Lord said that it did not contain the appropriation
clause.) He would speak to that also. To be sure the mea-
sure of last session did not contain an appropriation clause,
and yet their Lordships rejected it.--( Cheers.) That was no
act of sacrilege ; that was no act of spoliation. It might have
been brought forward under circumstances which made it ob-
jectionable to particular classes, but it contained no insu-
perable barrier to conscientious men adopting it, and he
solemnly declared that he had heard many speak on the sub-
ject, and never one who did not lament the rejection of the
measure. He would not pretend that he had the same degree
of knowledge of the opinions of the clergy on the subject of the
principle of appropriation ; but if he spoke his belief, he would
say that a great majority was in its favour. He did not deny
that their judgments might be somewhat warped by the
Misery to which they were subject ; but in supposing this
possible, he must not be taken to imagine that any one of
them would consent to sacrifice, for this worldly advantage,
what the Noble Lord had described as the " Church of
Christ." He begged to add, that he knew the most extraor-
dinary means had been used to procure petitions from the
clergy against the appropriation clause, and he knew instances
in which they had totally failed. The clergy were, no doubt,
a body of men having the feelings of gentlemen; but they
were necessarily, in the situation in which they were placed,
considerably under the influence of their diocesan. He should
be sorry to state it, if he did not believe it—but he would
say that, in his opinion, in most of the cases in which peti-
tions had been got up against the measure, they were pro-
cured by the influence and exertions of their superiors.
Lord L YND HLTR ST said, what connection there could
be between the Irish Church Bill and the Municipal Corpo-
rations Bill he could not see, though his Learned Friend had
brought them together in his speech.—(Hear, hear.) To be
sure they were both measures of spoliation, and as his Learned
Friend supported the one, he was not surprised to find him
supporting the other.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He hoped his
Learned Friend would give him leave to say, as a Member of
this House, and he believed he was speaking the opinion of
the whole country, that he would never consent that the re-
venues of the Church of Ireland should be plundered for
the purpose of inculcating the tenets of the Catholic Church.
—( Cheers.)
Several Members from the Commons brought up the Militia
Pay Bill, the Consolidated Fund Bill, the Lectures Publication
Bill, and the Tithe Instalment Suspension (Ireland) Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM rose to lay on the table a Bill for the
improvement of the law of Marriage and Divorce. He said
he brought forward the Bill in redemption of a pledge he had
given to that effect, his object being not of course to proceed
with it this session, but simply to leave it for their Lordships
consideration.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
CONFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO HOUSES.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL and other Members of the House of
Commons appeared at the Bar, to desire a Conference with
their Lordships, on the subject-matter of the amendments they
had made in an Act to provide for the regulation of Municipal
Corporations in England and Wales.
The question as to the holding of the Conference having
been put to their Lordships in the ordinary form by the
SPEAKER (Lord Denman), and agreed to,
His LORDSHIP, addressing the Members of the House
of Commons standing at the Bar, said,—Gentlemen of the
House of Commons, I am commanded by this House to inform
you that they have agreed to the Conference desired, and ap-
point it to be held presently, in their Committee-room, No. 5.
The Members of the Commons then withdrew.
Lord MELBOURNE rose, and, we believe, asked Lord
Lyndhurst and the Duke of Wellington to attend the Com-
mons. Their Lordships were understood to express an un-
willingnesstoattend.

Lord HOLLAND thought it rather an unusual circum-
tance, that the Noble lords who had moved the amendments
abonld decline being partieg,to the conference.
Lord BROUGHAM said Ilrat,the Noble and Learned Lord
merely asked his Noble Friend': not to name him. His
Noble Friend, wbo had jest_expissed his opinion, would
'see that it was one thing for A ,Noble Lord to request that
e might Lift be natte4;apkttite, another for him to refuse
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to attend after the House had appointed him, and when he
would be bound to go.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord LYND HURST expressed his obligation to his Noble
and Learned Friend for the very clear explanation he had
given on his behalf.—( A laugh. )
The Usher of the Black Rod announced to their Lordships
that the managers for the Commons were ready for the Confe-
rence in the Committee-room, No. 5.

Lord MELBOURNE then moved that the following
Noble Lords should conduct the Conference on behalf of their
Lordships :—The Lord President of the Council, the Lord
Privy Seal, the Duke of Richmond, the Earl of Shaftesbury,
the Bishop of Bristol, Lord Auckland, Viscount Melbourne,
and Lord Hatherton.

The motion was agreed to and their Lordships withdrew
from the House to meet the Commons. In about a quarter
of an hour their Lordships returned, bringing with them the
amendments, and the reasons assigned by the Commons for
their adoption.
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE the
reasons, and the amendments were read by the Clerk.
The Marquess of LANSDOWNE moved that the reasons
be printed, and that they be taken into consideration to-morrow.
Agreed to.
Lord BROUGHAM, who had been interrupted in the ob-
servations he was making respecting the law of marriage,
which he asked to lay before their Lordships, continued his
statement, but the noise was so great that we could not dis-
tinctly hear him. He concluded with laying the Bill on the table.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, that as far as he under-
stood the measure of the Noble and Learned Lord, he ap-
proved of the principle on which it was grounded.
Lord LYNDHURST expressed his sincere thanks to his
Noble and Learned Friend for having brought forward a mea-
sure on this subject.