The Sun.
London, England, 1835-02-26 00:00:00

THE SUNS LONDON, TinTILSDAY, PEI3II,UARY 20, 1838.

lord (Morpeth.) But I would beg to ask hon. gentlemen opposite, are
not the circumstances of the times entirely altered ? Formerly,
when they were in the possession of power, and in the full enjoS•ttient
of that patronage that power is so well known to tone r upon them, it
was possible for them, and easy to Maintain their position in
defiance of public opinion. But in the present circumstances of
the country, since the carrying of the Reform Bill, I defy
this, or any other Government, to maintain their position in
defiance of the public opinion of the country.—( Hear, from the minis-
terial side.) Therefore, it is, that I am prepared to give the present
administration that fair trial they desire—that qualified sup-
port which 1 think they are entitled to from the representation of a
Reformed constituency.—(Cheers from the same side.) I know that there
is a large and influential party returned to this house by constituencies
determined to enforce the principles of the Reform Bill, and to Compel
whateverparty may hold the reins of Government to a !opt those measures
which they think are in accordance with the spirit of, and eonseqUent
upon, the Reform Bill ; or otherwise eject the existing Administration,
whatever it may be, from the possession of office.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) Then a question naturally arises, whether Government can
maintain its position until they are able to bring forward those
measures they are desirous to have effected. A course, I must say, has
been taken by hon. gentlemen around me on the present occasion, that
in a great degree tends to embarrass the question immediately be-
fore the house.—(Hear, hear.) It is taken as a positive fact,
that all the constituencies by which gentlemen are returned to
this house are of one way of thinking—(Hear, hear)—and it is
also said that the qualified support which I am prepared to
give to the present administration, is in opposition to the
principles which, to ensure my return, I professed on the hustingt—
(Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) I say that such a
statement is injurious to the character of my constituents, who
are decided Reformers and Anti-Ministerial i4tse--(Hear, hear.)
It could not be denied but that there were -
,many constituencies who
would give the present Government
trial. Ido not say that they are
the majority of constituencie-
......—(Cheers from the opposition.) My con-
stituents I am will:•
—ag to admit are Reforiners,—(Continued cheers.)
—but I do
-m .•
y a great majority of them arc anxious to give the present
!over-.intent a trial; and suppose even that the majority of my consti-
.uents did not altogether think eo, still I cannot altogether recognize
that Parliamentary doctrine, which, while it makes it imperative to
obey the wishes of the majority,stillnot to overlook the opinions of themi-
nority when they agree with my own, (Cheers from the Ministerialside.)
Let us but look at the returns of' the elections, and could any gentleman
for a minute doubt but there is a strong feeling in the country to give
the present Government a trial ?—(Cheers from the Ministerial side.)
And so even was the balance of opinion that in farness it could not be
denied. Ido not mean to include the counties, but let us look to
the cities and boroughs.--(Cheers fiem the Odpos:Sion ) What di 4
Liverpool do! Were not the noble lord who moved the address, and his
right hon. Mend, both professing contrary principles? In Bristol the
same doubt took place, and even in Halifax the contest was so close,
in the balance of opinion, that the election was gained by a majority
of one. Therefore it was not quite fair to say, that the country were
against giving the present Government a trial, though that was de-
nied by the noble Lord, the member for Devonslere ; but if the noble
lord and his party come into office, they would have difficulties to con-
tend with which they were blind to; and I do say that the bond
of union which now unites the Opposition would be dissolved,
and the elements of strife and discord would embarrass any new
Ministry, and all useful and practical measures would be retarded. It
is rather an ungracious topic for a Reformer to talk of placing confi-
dence in the new Administration ; but I think, at least, before
they are condemned, that a fair trial should be alluded them.
But I never could despise those difficulties, nor am I able to -deal
with them as others, who think that they might have been
easily overcome, Now, as it was stated last night by the
right honourable baronet, one of the chief advantages of the pre-
sent Government is that it will facilitate the progress of Reform with the
concurrence of the other house. Some gentlemen indulged in a sneer
at my professions of Reform---(Cheers from the Opposition)—overlook-
ing the fact that I have supported all Reform measures; but my wish
is to see Reform pursued steadily and safely with the concurrence
of all parties, instead of being forced and carried by violent means.
I believe the right hon. baronet appealed to his constituents
upon his taking office, for which I am not disposed to
blame him, and for which reason alone I cannot pre-
fer the Amendment to the Address, bec arse the Amendment
takes a decided course of disapprobation—it states that the dissolution
was unnecessary. I am free to state that if the change of ministry
was justiflable--and I dont offer any opinion upon that now,
because we are fully to discuss that point hereafter—
but I broadly laid down this proposition, that if the change of ministry
was necessary, the dissolution of Parliament was necessary, anti the in-
evitable consequence of that change.—(Hear.) Now have the results of
the elections benefitted the right hon. baronet ? I give the right hon.
baronet credit for being sufficiently sagacious in views—for having
during his long life of official experience, ascertained that his
position at the present time is very different indeed from
what it was when I had the lienour of sit' ing in the house with him, he
being one of the ministers of the Crown. I tenth.. right hen. hart. the re-
sult of the late election has proved two things—it has proved the country
is sincere and determined in having those reforms which the course of
time has rendered necessary in the different institutions of the e ,unt ry
they are determined to have them ; and we are told that the sense of the
country solemnly speaking is directly opposed to those rash measures of
innovation—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side)—which a certain
party in this house—(Hear, hear, hear)—endeavoured to force upon
the late Government, and which in my opinion mainly led to
the suppression of that Government—;Cheers from the Ministerial
side.) Sir, it is attempted to be said out of doors, (I don't know
whether it has been put forward in this house,) that this is a question
of reform or no reform—(Heer, hear)—and that therefore it is the
duty of every man who has professed himself a Reformer by every means
in his power to turn out the present Government, in consequence
of their known antipathy to Reform.—(Hear, hear.) If I thought so,
nobody would more readily join than myself in subverting the
present Government ; but as I do not ci noider the question
in that point of view, I would much rather support a motion
for their removal, then endeavour to subvert them by throwing every
obstacle in their way. That, Sir, I consider to be by far the more
manly course, because whatever the terms of the amend.
ment may be, the object evidently is to subvert the government.
The reason why I consider that it is nut a question of reform or no
reform is, that that has been decided by the reform bill itself, whice
as the right hon. baronet has justly observed, bas placed that degree
of power in the hands of the constituency of the United Kingdom
that renders it certain, into whose hands the Governmen tfalls, teat
no abuse whatever can take plsce.---(Hear, hear) I admit that there
are some abuses, some real and aleged abuses, but upon that
point great differences of opinion exist between hon. membe:s, and it
is, therefore, a question of reasonable discusssion of time and degree.
But what may be pronounced absolute abuses are those which
exist in the English and Irish Church, the abuses in the system of corpo-
rations—that those are abuses must be conceded by the present Govern-
ment, or their successors.—(Loud cheers.) It would be premature for
me now to enter into any detail upon those subjects at the present mo-
ment. The sole object I have in obtruding myself is to justify the vote
I shall give, and I think it 'may be understood from what I have
stated, that the simple ground upon which !shall give my vote in favour
of the address and against the amendm nt, is that looking
at the peculiar ;difficulties of the country with reference to
the state of parties which are so nicely balanced, that I hardly know how
any Government can conduct the affairs of the country, if party men
-attempt to press their principles to the utmost, refusing therefore
to give any reasonable concession.—(Loud cries of hear, hear.)—
Are we, now that we are about to enter into another session of parlia-
ment, to occupy the whole of our time in mere strife of parties ? Let
the question as to the stability of the government be brought before
the house by a tangible motion—(Loud cheers from the ministerial
benches)—then we will see what their professions are; and then if they
do not satisfy us, I shall be most willing to join any one in a vote of dis-
approbation of their conduct, and pray his Majesty for their dismissal.
The right hon. baronet, in his speech of last night, which was characte-
rized with his usual ability, stated most distinctly that he did not conceal
from himself the difficult situation in which he was placedby the acceptance
of office under the peculiar circumstances which existed. I, for one, can
assure the right honourable gentleman, that any prejudices which I may
have towards him will not induce me to shut my eyes to the great ser-
vices which in former times he rendered to the country—(Great cheer.
ing from the Ministerial benches)—or to the conduct, the open con-
duct which he has invariably pursued. He has made it so clear
that he has throughout the present circumstances been actuated by
public duty alone, that I for one think that it would be harsh to him—
harsh to the Government, and most disrespectful to the Crown, if we
were to attempt to overwhelm him at the present moment without
a trial. I wish, although it is scarcely necessary. to state, that though
assenting to the address, I am prepared and will exercise a strict vigi-
lance and superintending control over all the acts of the Government.
It must be recollected by every gentleman present, that the power
is still in our own hands.—(Hear, and loud cheering.) We can
move an Amendment to every one of the propositions of the honour-
able baronet ; and in the present state of parties, I will venture to
say that not one of the measures of the present Government,
but will undergo a full and searching inquiry.—(Hear, hear.)
With respect to the charge made against the Government, that in the
course they are now pursuing they are acting inconsistently with
their former conduct, I shall not enter upon that subject. The right hon.
bart. is well able to defend himself and the Government from that charge.
—but I shall never concur in the opinion, that because he and those
who act with him did, under other circumstances, think it right to
oppose reform, they should now be branded as apostates, if they brought
forward reforming measures.—(Hear, from the Ministerial side.)
Is it not part of our constitutional doctrine that the Ministers of the
Crown of a country where a certain degree of freedom exists must be
influenced in some degree by public opinion ; and, therefore, whatever
the private opinions of the right hon. baronet may be on certain subjects,
as for instance, on the question of Catholic emancipation, and the repeal
of the Test and Corporation Acts; and although it is admitted he would
not have conceded these measures if it depended on his personal will,
there is nothing inconsistent with hischaracter, if he was disposed to bring
these questions forward in defiance of public opinion. Sir, lam mainly
influenced in this course by the apprehension that if the present go-
vernment fails, there is no probability, in the present state of parties,
of forming another government with any appearance of advantage to
the country—(Loud cries of "Hear," from the ministerial side.) The
right hon. Baronet in his speech of last night amused the house
and instructed the ccuntry by reading some passages from a
letter of the honourable and learned member for Dublin.--) Hear .)
I suppose, however, that all the hon. and learned member's obser-
vations upon his former opponents are forgotten now. But the
honourable and learned member is too candid not to admit
that they are only forgotten now to be revived when
an opportunity. occurs—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and that op-
portunity will be the moment the present Government is re-
jected—the moment his present friends are re-instated, and the
moment they oppose his wishes.—(llear, hear, hear.) It is
clear, that looking at the condition in which the country is
placed, seeing what our constituents have a .right to expect
—(Loud cries of " Order")—that we should look with jea-
lousy at the measures of Government, and I beg to state my inten-
tion of giving the address my support. The amendment of the
noble lord amounts to nothing—it embodies nothing which iS not em-
bodied in the answer to the address, with the single exception of the
disapprobation of the house at the dissolution of the late Govern-
ment—(hear, hear)--and although I sun no adherent of the Mi-
nistry, and although I look at their conduct with jealousy,
I shall give them a fair and honourable trial, and they shall receive that
support from me which many gentlemen on the hustings promised
them.—(Cries of " Order.") I shall conclude by observing I should be
ashamed if I suffered my conduct on this trying occasion to be influenced
by that pressure from without, which has been created by clamour,
and carried to an extent recently, that is highly disgraceful,
and which no man therefore should yield to, without its reflecting
the greatest possible discredit upon him.—(hear, hear.)—
Why, Sir, we have been all branded by the press with the name of
traitors.—(Hear.) I will not enter further on the subject now. I have vin-
dicated myself before my constituents and the country. In the tenor of my
life I have never been a factious supporter of any Ministry—l have
never been the servile tool of any Administration—l have never been
guilty of expressing implicit confidence in men one day, and the next
day giving them the strongest opposition. I consider it the duty of
every member to exercise a cautious control over every government,
but, with the views 1 entertain, I feel bound, on the present motion, to
give my support to His Majesty's Government, and to vote for the
address.

Mr. WARD rose and said—l differ so entirely from the hon. gent.who
lastaddressed the House, both in the language I intend to pursue and the
motives which I conceive ought to influence tt e conduct of every man
who professes himself a reformer, that I cannot help obtruding myself for
a few moments upon the attention of the house. My inducement to do
so is stronger in consequence of th echarge of factious opposition, which,
though not specifically brought forward by the right hon. baronet .Peel)
last night, was used as applicable to all who refuse to support the
present Govrrnment, as from the nature and extent of She reforms

they were prepared to carry into effect, they, conSiderfd th?mselves
fully entitled to, the support'or all gongt and conscientious , men.
--(Sir Robert Peel seemed to deny that he used the words.)—l must
have misapprehended the right honourable Bart., if he had not used the
words " factious opposition" in his speech—a speech I listened to with de-
light, though not conviction. I never saw Conservatism dressed out in more
fascinating colours—l never saw the difference between those
who sit on this and those who sit on the other side of the
house, more artfully and skilfully disguised. I will, however, en-
deavour to bring back the Mile to the real grOUtids on
which we ought tb stand, and to show the points on *bleb we essentially
differ. And 1 hope to be able to prove that vie do ndt offlir any factious
opposition, and that we are not animated by any pt rsoniii Nelings against
the GoVernment, tont Unit we are oPpdied to them from a regard to
those prihoiplet which tee conscientiously entertain, and in which
I, for one at least, cannot hope that at any time, or under any
circumstances, the right honourable baronet will be induced to
concur. The principles upon which the two parties essentially
differ are those :—ln the first place we differ as to the power of the
Legislature to deal with Corporate property. As to the right
of dissenteril to the Universities, the right hon. baronet says he has no
right to exercise any power on the privileges of the Universities, in order
to pave the way for the admission of dissenters.—(Hear.) He ad-
mits the practical grievances to which they are at present exposed,
and he is prepared to remedy those grievances ; but he does not recog-
nise the great principle from which this remedy flows ; he does not
recognize the great principle of religious belief; he does not re.
cognise the great privilege of any free access whatever being
given to the honours of the country without any impediment or reserve.
He gives them, to a certain extent, a variety, I admit, but no more.
Now, Sir, to come to the second point on which I differ from the
right hon. baronet, it is with regard to the municipal corporations'
commission. Nothing can be fairer than what the Right Hon. Baronet
says on that subject—he admits its claim to importance, but he wishes
to have the report before he pledges himself to any specific measure. I
maintain, however, that the Right Hon. Baronet was bound, in a speech
from the throne to state the principles upon which the government
would proceed when that report was received.—( Hear, hear.) I
mean the great principles on which its responsibility rested, and its
mode of operation was to be conducted. I must confess I could learn
nothing of this from the speech of the right hon. bart. last night.
Now it is notorious that the interests of his party will not induce the
Right Hon. Baronet to extend popular rights in the close corporations. I
hope that these bodies will be placed upon a basis which will be useful to
the country, but we look in vain for such an assurance in the Speech from
the throne—l ask this question' of the members upon the Treasury
benches, I will not say the Representatives of a county, but of any
populous town ?—(Cheers.) I hold, Sir, that Corporations upon
their present system are the strong holds of the Conservative party, and
it is not in human nature that they should endeavour to destroy them.
The members who sit behind the right hon. baronet are almost exclu-
sively the representatives of close boroughs, and I ask whether the noble
lord, the member for Norwich would have dared, to any open consti-
tuency, to make his celebrated declaration against reform—(cheers
from the opposition, and from lord Stormont, " I never said it.")—
I ask whether in any single popular constituency the noble lord would
have ventured to express his hatred even of the name of Reform?
(Lord Stormont repeated his denial.) Well, then, I must say never
was there an unfortunate member of this house so foully belied
or so badly treated—(Loud cheers from the opposition)—and I
wonder really under the peculiar circumstances in which
the Noble Lord was himself placed, and on which the government of
which he was a member was situated, that he did not feel
himself called upon to deny a report so injurious to both.
The report was given in ail its details. The Noble Lord was
stated to have expressed his horror even of the name of
Reform ;—he was stated to have said that there was something in
the word itself to which he had a peculiar aversion. I believe in no
other part of the empire would such a speech have been made. The
right hon. baronet now professed himself a Reformer, and would en-
deavour to persuade us that he is as full and sincere a reformer
as any gentleman upon this side of the house,—(Cries of " Hear,
hear,)—but I cannot think that if he were so he could support
the gentlemen in the conservative interest, who intend falling back on
those very bodies which are the strong-holds of Toryism in this country.
That was the second point of difference between the parties. The
honourable gentleman then went on to observe that the third ques-
tion was that of ecclesiastical reform, more particularly
in Ireland. With his strong feelings on that subject he thought he
could not be justly accused of a factious opposition to the Government
if he withheld from it his support—(hear, hear, hear)—especially
when one of its members, in his address to his own constituents, said he had
no new professions to make on this subject, and that he could not consent
to any alienation of church property.—(Great cheering from the mini-
sterial side.) With his feelings, he repeated, on that subject, he
trusted that those who thought with him, and he believed they
were not few in numbers (hear, hear, from the opposition)—
he trusted it was impossible to assure them of a factious opposition to the
Government, because they withheld their support—(Hear, hear,
from Sir Robert Peel.) The right honourable baronet admitted
, that there was a necessity for the distribution of Church
property, and no honest reformer could be dissatisfied with such
a measure, involving the equalization of the bishoprics—
the enforcing of residence—and the provision of a competent remu.
neration for the working clergy—such a measure would doubtless satisfy
the Reformers in England; but if they crossed the Irish Channel
what would re-distribution effect there? It was impossible by nicely
balancing the revenues of the Irish Church, to render the people
insensible to the burdens they bore, or to reconcile them to their further
continuance. For these reasons he was induced to withhold his support
from the Address to the Crown. He regretted that the opinions and
views of the right hon. baronet were not more explicitly declared. An
honest expression of opinion was the best course for all public men.
There was in the Amendment a distinct expression of the opinion of the
gentlemen on his side of the house in favour of a large extension of
popular rights, and he wished sincerely that other points to which he
alluded had been as distinctly marked. The right hon. baronet had said,
—suppose the Amendment had been carried and the Ministry displaced,
who was to follow—who was to take the helm of affairs? And he went
cri to point out the differences of opinion and the incongruities
amongst them on those benches ; but he would ask whether the
same inconsistencies and heterogeneous principles did not pre-
vail to a greater extent on that side of the house ?—(Loud cheers.)
The hon. member for Lincoln (Colonel Sibthorpe) says 4• No, no."
What greater inconsistency, he (Mr. W.) would ask, can be exhibited
on this side of the house than to see gentlemen of such opposite principles
acting together as the gallant colonel and the hon. bart., the member for
Cumberland? (Sir James Graham).—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
What greater inconsistency can there be than to behold on the
same side of the house the gallant colonel, who believes the
present Government to be the most perfect Government that
ever existed, and the right honourable baronet (Sir James Graham)
who denounced it on the hustings in such violent and unmeasured
terms ?—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) Probably the right hon. ba.
ronet, like the noble lord opposite (Stormont) would disavow the language
attributed to them so generally, and even the use of which had never
been contradicted by them—or probably the right hon. baronet intended
to vote for the amendment o f the noble lord (Morpeth), and therefore his
(Mr. Ward's) argument fell to the ground. He (Mr. W.) knew not but
that the right hon. baronet at the head of his Majesty's Government
reckoned amongst the supporters of-the address, the right hon. baronet,
the member for Cumberland—because he (Sir J. Graham) probably is
of opinion that so conscientious a reformer as the right hon. bart. (Sir R.
Peel) will vote for his extension of the principles of reform—that by some
ingenious persuasion he may extract from him the Septennial Act
and Vote by Ballot.—(Cheers and laughter from the Opposition.)
He (Mr. Ward), notwithstanding the taunting inquiries from
the other side of the house as to who could be found corn.
petent to compose a government to take place of the present
Administration, believed that a Government could be easily pro-
cured, able and competent to take their place, and that would receive
the support of the great majority of this house, and of the people
of this country.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He believed
that the last government possessed the confidence of the majority
of the people of this country, if they had been allowed to meet
Parliament as the present Administration had been enabled. But
they were not permitted to have that fair trial that the right
hon. baronet's government had received—they were not afforded that
opportunity which the present government had received, of stating
their intentions in a Speech from the Throne. If the right hon. baronet
(Sir Robert Peel) had announced that it was his intention
to effect a satisfactory settlement of the Irish tithe question, he (Mr.
W.) would have been desirous to afford his government whatever
support he (Mr. W.) could contribute. He was even now disposed
to give him his warmest support, should the right honourable baronet
state that such was his intention; but the speech from the throne,
and the comments of the right hon. baronet on it, would not permit
of such a hope. Another question was raised, which it was
now useless to enlarge upon—he meant the collision of
the two branches of the Legislature. The obvious consequences of ad-
vancing such a proposition, viz. to prevent such collision, was
that any measure of Reform desired by the people should
be proscribed by a majority of the House of Lords,
and if not agreeable to them must be abandoned.—(Hear.)
We hoped that the time would come when the house of lords would co-
operate with the commons in the advancement of such measures as would
conciliate the feelings of the people. He was apprehensive that the
present cabinet had no such materials in it.—(Loud cheers.) He
would not trouble the house with anything further on the
subject ; he had already stated the grounds upon which he would
give his vote, which was uninfluenced by any motive, save a sense
of duty.—(Hear, hear.) He, therefore, supported the amendment.
And without attempting to interfere with the prerogative of the
King, he thought the house ought to express the deep regret they
felt at the dissolution of the late house of parliament—(Cheers)
—a house which was pledged to so many measures of Reform, and which
was so much in unison with the feelings of the people. He therefore
gave his support to the amendment.—(The hon. member sat down
amidst loud cheers.)
Lord STORMONT rose, and was for some time inaudible in the Gal.
lery. The first sentence we heard was, that he admitted he used the
words imputed to him by the hon. member for St. Albans, of saying
that he hated the word Reform.—(Loud cheers from the opposition.)
When he made use of the words that he hated reform, he did so as
it was used, to mean the destruction of all the valuable insti-
tutions of the country.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If it was ap.
plied to improve our Institutions, the case would be dlfferent..--(Loud
cheers.)—But as it was now real, he was its most violent opponent.
He had always been ready to avow his real sentiments, and would always
be ready to defend his public conduct, and he trusted that he would hear
no more of such accusations. The hon, members opposite had frequently
alluded to close corporations; but he would ask them to recollect that one
of those alluded to contained upwards of 4,000 electors, and that they
voted for the sheriffs, the aldermen, and the town council.—(Hear.)
After that, the hon. members opposite would not state that all those
members who sit for the corporations are the representatives of close
burghs.
Captain BERKELEY stated that he had been brought up a consti.
tutional Whig, and had ever ranged himself under the banner of
" measures, not men." Under that banner he would continue, and
would support the present Government as long as their measures were
calculated for the good of the country : and on the same principle he
would say that the gentlemen opposite were about to give a factious
vote by supporting the Amendment.—(Hear, from the Treasury Bench.)
He maintained that nothing like faction could be saddled on those
who should vote for the amendment, because they had heard from
the right honourable baronet that even should that amendment be
carried, the Government would not be upset. He should give his vote
honestly, fearlessly, and conscientiously. He did not think that
he should be considered as a factious man in giving the vote
he intended, and he would now take the liberty of stating why
he should give that vote. In the first place it had been stated by a
noble lord, who was then sitting on the ministerial side of the
house, out of doors, that he had no confidence in the present
government. By the vote he (Captain B.) should give, he
might be meant to express very nearly the same opinion, that he had no
confidence in the present Government, and the reason he said he had
no confidence in the present Government was, that when he
heard the talent, and admired the delivery of the speech which the
right honourable baronet had made last night, he had heard no one sin-
gle thing that would convince him (Captain B.) that there was to be
a thorough change in the right hon. baronet's line of policy.
The right hon. baronet had asked whether one great evil that went to
upset the late Government of which Lord Grey was at the head, was
not the pressure from without ? He (Capt. B) would ask, could any man
sitting in that house believe that the pressure from without
would not tend still stronger to upset the present Go..
vernment of the right honourable baronet ? (Hear, hear, hear.)
They were not pledging themselves in any way to deviate from any thing
they had either said, or had done, within or without the walls
of the house, and when they came to the single question of
consistency or no consistency, he did not ace why gentlemen of
different political opinions should not come to the same conclusion.—
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the foreign policy, he recollected when
the subject was touched upon in that house, a phalanx was opposed

agalpst the side he ok : but he should like to ask if the foreign policy

. .„ .
which was to maintain „the. peace and prosperity of Europe was
to be preservers licit!, it hippened,thit ]ionC,arlps ,wap now in Spain.
—(Hear, hear). With respect to tit ::eleaturisi that were proposed,
by the present government, he would say that so ,e-; ?t, the
right hon. baronet brought forward measures calculated to carry into
effect good and beneficial reforms, calculated to meet the wishes of the
people, he would support him, but he must take the liberty of
saying with regard to the measures of reform that he had heard it was
the intention of ministers to bring forward, they would not satisfy him.
With respect to the reform that was intended to take place in the
corpotation rtiondtkily df tiniversitiee, the people were left to the mere), of
those whb were at the head of those places.—(Hear, hear.) The boon
offered by the present minister could hardly be Balled reform at all,
they expected more, and must and would have U.—(l-tear; hear,
and great cheering.) With respect to the Irish Church reforirii
he distinctly and avowedly stated that in his opinion there was nothing
in the King's Speech that would lead any person to. suppose that
reform was intended. On the whole, he had no confidence in the
Reforms that were intended to be brought forward by his Majesty's pre.
sent Government, he should therefore vote for the amendment
of the noble lord, more particularly as there was nothing in that
amendment, which was violent, or at all trenched upon the prerogative
of the Crown ; he considered it as an amendment which every man who
wished well to his country could consistently support.—(Loud cheers.)
Several m-mbers then rose together, but, there being loud cries for
Lord STANLEY, he proceeded to address the house as follows :
Sir, if I am to believe with the hon. Gentleman who has now sat down,
and who has done me the honour of referring to some expressions of
mine, which fell from me out of this House, that in consenting
to the address which has been moved to his Majesty, in answer to his
gracious speech from the Throne, and in offering an opposition to the
amendment of my noble friend opposite, I shall be expressing a political
opinion different from my noble friend, or expressing a confidence
(which I must confess I cannot feel) in the Government, I might
feel hesitation in the course which I shall pursue on this occasion.
But in the few remarks which I shall offer to the House, I wish to
state broadly and plainly what is the ground, and I trust it will be
an intelligible one,—(Cries of " Hear, hear,)—upon which I
have come to the decision which I have done, to vote for the
address. Sir, in looking at the present state of parties in
the political world, as an honest man, and professing honest
reform principles, I ft el that I am obliged to give my vote against
the amendment of my noble friend. Sir, I speak not my
own sentiments aline, but those of a body of gentlemen in this
heuse neither ins'ernificant in point of standing, of intelligence, or
of weight in the country, who are bent upon the determination by the
most rational means, to get measures of reform, and who are determined
to effect those means through no paltry course of proceeding, hut by
that course which in our judgment we think may be conducive to the
end which we have in view. Sir, in entering into the subject
of the amendment, I must, in the first place, pay a tri-
bute, which I do with feelings of unmingled pleasure,
to the very able, the intelligent, the gentlemanly, and the perfect consti-
tutional manner in which the amendment was introduced by my
noble friend.—(Great cheering from both sides of the house.)—
I was not surprised at it, because I was perfectly aware that the exercise of
his own judgment would lead him not to depart from those feelings which
I am proud and happy to say we have in common. I do not dif-
fer from my noble friend in his opinions as to the constitutional
rights and privileges of this house. I do not differ with him as to
its right to take into its cognizance the dissolution of the
late Parliament, now that the present Government are most strictly
and truly responsible for that, as well as for the dismissal of the late
Government. Neither do I differ from the doctrine laid down
by him that it is within the competency and privileges of the house
to express its opinion, and pass its judgment on those points, and
to address the Sovereign relative to the exercise of his most undoubted
prerogative, the dismissal of any Government.—(Loud cheering.)
Sir, I agree farther with my noble friend—l agree with him in the
comments which he has felt it his duty to pass on the course
of proceeding to which I am unwilling to apply any terms stronger
than those selected by my noble friend—(Hear, hear)—l mean the
concentration, the extraordinary concentration of power for a consi-
derable time in the hands of one individual upon the dissolution of the
late Administration. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") I
agree also with my Noble Friend, that the fact of no evil or
abuse having arisen is no justification of such a proceeding.
I admit the high talents of the Duke of W ellington, but I consider that
such a proceeding, if unnoticed by the representatives of the people
is a precedent dangerous to the liberties of the country.—(Loud
and continued cheers from the Opposition.) I do not now
wish, looking at she circumstances ill which the country is
at the present tune placed, to make any further observations
upon the steps that were then taken, further than, in the name of the
House of Commons, to protest against such an assumption of power in
the hands of any individual, and to express my opinion that such a pre-
ce-lent should not be suffered to pass without comment or observa-
tion.—(Loud cheers.) Nay more, I beg to say that such a step ought
not to have been taken without very strong and cogent reasons. The
right hon. baronet has gone back for a precedent to the latter days of
Queen Anne. Why, Sir, in what a position was the country then?—
(Hear.) The Queen was on her death-bed—there was a disputed succes-
sion—a foreign pretender was threatening the country with a civil war.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Ministers who surrounded her dying
bed, with her consent, having for months and years before
her death carried on a succession of secret intrigues with that
pretender whose object was to desolate the country with civil
war—those ministers imposed upon the Earl of Shrewsbury the
three great offices of State, and that was not a dangerous precedent,
but one which tended to consolidate the liberties of the peo.
ple.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") I shall pass no opinion as to the extent
to which a similar concentration of power may be justified on the
present occasion, but I shall proceed to the consideration of the
Amendment, and the observations which have been made upon
it by my noble friend. There is one point that I am bound
to admit. There is one point in the Amendment now intro-
duced, which, it it stood alone, I should have had great diffi-
culty in offering any opposition to, because I am bound to
admit, after having carefully examined the terms of the Address,
and the answer to it, and after having listened with anxious attention to
the explanation of the right hon. baronet last night, the allusions to
the municipal corporations, neither in the one or the other, are as
full or as explicit as they ought to be.—(Vehement cheering
from the opposition.) I admit that the right hon. baronet might have
been prevented, from prudential considerations, from stating explicitly
and fully what measures the government contemplated introducing;
but I should deceive the right hon. baronet and the house, if I did not
distinctly say that, with regard to the intaciple tut which this question
will be dealt with, and here I coincide with my noble friend, the member
for Yorkshire, thet the principle and spirit which will be applied to the
corporations of England, is the same principle and the same spirit
which was applied to the representation of the people in Scotland.
I confess I do not see how my noble friend has coupled with
these questions the subject of the emancipation of the negroes in the West
Indies, or how he could bring it to bear as indicating the same spirit.
I have referred to the system upon which the people of England
have made up their minds, and on which I have no hesitation
in saying my own mind is also completely made up.—(Hear, hear.)
As to the principle of reform with which they wish to deal,
I consider corporate rights, and the representation in Parlia-
ment to be alike a trust for the benefit of the public at large, and
that it is only tinder a system of real and true represen-
tation, and real and true responsibility—(Great cheering)—that
such can consist. I regret, therefore, that upon this subject his
Majesty's Ministers have not been able to give a more explicit statement
than they have done in the address. I do not undoubtedly go with
the hon. gentleman who seconded the amendment, and insist that it is
necessary that any system of corporate reform must, if con-
sistent, introduce all the details of the Scotch plan of 'reform.—
(Hear, hear) I should be sorry to throw upon Parliament,
such unnecessary trouble, nor do I think that any detailed exposition of
the principle was required; but I will say that the people of England
expect a real Reform of the Municipal Corporations.—(Hear, hear.)—
Such a Reform must be based upon the system of representation,
and I wait with anxiety and impatience for the measures which the Go-
vernment after a reasonable time, will bring forward, but from the
discussion of any opinion upon the subject, I look with greater
jealousy at it than I otherwise would. If then, this question stood
alone, I should have felt a difficulty, entertaining the strong opinions I
do, in common with many other members, I should have felt a
difficulty in offering any opposition. But in the first place I am bound
to say that the broad principle upon which I profess to act, namely,
not to condemn the measures of the present Administration till I
have seen what they are, and till I have an opportunity of judging of the
nature of them, will not prevent me from giving my assent to this ad-
dress, since it does not necessarily contain a negative of every thing
that has been omitted; neither does it pledge us to the details, or
even to the principle of every measure. I say, then, that in his
Majesty's Speech, several subjects are touched upon in a spirit of real
and substantial reform and of sound and constitutional reform, though,
by a singular fatality, the word " reform" does not occur in the whole
Speech.—(Laughter.) I suppose this is a sacrifice to those who
do not like the name—(Great laughter)—however, I will not quarrel
with the sacrifice, I am satisfied to see promises held out in a spirit of
well-considered and efficient means of improvement in our national
institutions. I will wait with anxiety, but at the same time with patience
and forbearance to see how those promises will be carried into effect.
I hold that this line of conduct is in strict conformity with that declara-
tion which I made to the constituency of the large county which I have
the honour to represent—that whilst I felt myself constrained from joining
that administration—that whilst I felt myself called on to declare that I
could not place confidence in the composition of that admininistration,
—(Loud cheers from the opposition)—for I cannot put confidence in
the present Ministry—(Continued cheers)—although I ought to be the
last man who should quarrel with their composition, yet I still de.
clared that I would take no step which would have a tendency to
overthrow that government before a sufficient time had elapsed
to see on what principles they would proceed. I can look at
the amendment in no other way than as intended to overthrow the pre-
sent ministry, or else to obtain such a triumph as would greatly
embarrass them. In either one case or the other, Ido not think it
right to follow the course pursued by the other side of the house.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") lam quite sure that it is not consistent
with my feelings, and I am sure that there are expressions in the amend.
ment itself from which I differ. We are called on to give an opinion
on the late dissolution of parliament. My noble friend the mem.
ber for the West Riding of Yorkshire (lord Morpeth) says that this
is a question of great and paramount importance, and he appeals to the
dissolution of 1784, in which Mr. Pitt was reduced to the necessity of
exacting a pledge from the House of Commons, when he declared the
country, in the exercise of his Majesty's undoubted prerogative, had no
right to express an opinion on the subject in this place. Now let me tell my
noble friend—l do not know whether my noble friend is in the house
or not, but 1 am sure I shall not say any thing of my noble
friend which he would not like to hear—but let me tell
my Noble Friend what was the occasion on which Mr.
Pitt thought it necessary to demand the pledge from the
house, and the necessity which then existed that such a dia.
solution was called for. Whether it was necessary, or whe.
ther it was prudent, I deem this is not the place to enter upon. But
let them look to the circumstances in which the country was placed.
Why, throughout the session, Mr. Pitt had been in a minority,
the supplies had been stopped, and the Mutiny Bill was thrown out.
Under these circumstances could anything be more necessary than that
Mr. Pitt should have acted in the manner he had done.
The measures of his government had been denounced by the House
of Commons, that denunciation was staring him on their journals, and
it surely was by no means strange that he should endeavour to coun-
teract it by a resolution of the house which he had summoned into ex-
istence. Here there is no necessity for an expression of our opinion on the
late dissolution, and if it even were so, we have not the materials on
which to give it. Are we acquainted with all the circumstances which
led to it ? Do we know all the circumstances, and all the conversa-
tions' between his Majesty and the various members of Lord Melbourne's
administration at the time of their accession to office, or all those which
passed at the time of their removal. Sir, I will not now express any
opinion upon the wisdom or prudence of the dissolution, whether
it was necessary or unnecessary, but by objecting to any de-
cision of the question by way of an amendment to the ad-
dress. I object to the declaration contained in the amendment
that the spirit or the principle of the reform bill is endangered by the
dissolution of parliament, because, if it should be so, the reform bill
itself must be of no avail. If that great charter should be in
peril by an appeal to the constituent body of this kingdom, then, in-
deed, would I conceive it to be an almost useless and worthless measure.
My respect for the Reform Bill, and for the electors of this country,
will not allow me to doubt that any government can stem the tide
of salutary reform, and I do think that no dissolution
can prevent the extension of its spirit to all useful
and necessary purposes. The member for St. Albans professed
himself anxious—he declared his willingness not upon this occwion
to prejudge the question of the Irish church. He intimated his in-
tention of bringing forward that question at another time, but not at
present to discuss it, or partially to iotroduce it; but yet he saw.