The Sun.
London, England, 1832-05-18 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Meg' 17.

Colonel TORRENS presented a petition from Bolton,
signed by upwards of 13,000 persons, praying the House
not to grant any supplies until the Reform Bill was car-

After a few observations from Mr. FIRGUSSON, Mr.
HUNT, and Mr. JAMES, the pretition was ordered to be
printed.
Mr. SHAW presented a petition from a parish in York,
against the new system of education in Ireland.
Mr. F. PALMER stated that he had several petitions to
present of a similar nature to the one presented by the
Gallant Colonel, but he thought in the present state of the
country it would be much better to postpone the present-
ing of them for some short time.
Mr. PHILLIPS presented a petition from Loughbo-
rough, praying the House not to grant supplies until the
passing of the Reform Bill.
THE MINISTRY.

After several petitions, principally of a private nature,

Ltid biota ptfg‘ated, end 144141idialviy OU Lead ALtillakr
entering the House,

Mr. PAGET lose for the purpose of asking the Noble
Lord whether the negotiation between his Majesty and
Lord Grey had been finally settled.
Lord ALTHORP said, that in answer to the question
of the Honourable Member he had undoubtedly stated
on a former night that a communication had been
made from his Majesty to Earl Grey, and that
in consequence of that communication he had sug-
gested the adjournment of the House to that day.
Although he was not prepared at the present to say
the arrangements in consequence of that communi-
cation were complete, yet he hoped that he bad reason
to state that the probability was, that a most satisfactory
arrangement would take place.—(Tremendous cheering.)
In saying so, he trusted he need not again ask for themselves
the confidence of the House and the country, that they
should not feel justified in continuing in an Administra-
tion unless they felt and saw that they had every possible
assurance of carrying this Reform 8111 without any ma;
terial alterations in its principles.—(Loud Cheers.)
Lord EBRINGTON congratulated the House and the
country on the announcement that bad just been made by
the Noble Lord, after which he could not bring himself to
contemplate any disappointment in this part of the coun-
try. He trusted, however, that any arrangement that
might be made would be made speedily. He was glad
to hear also from the Noble Lord that no arrange-
ment would be made by them without they were cer-
tain of securing all the essential provisions of the Bill, and
that it was their determination either to carry it with all its
material parts or not at all. He expressed his anxious
hope that in a short time the House and the country would
have the great pleasure of hearing that the arrangements
were brought to a final close; for although the state-
ment made by the Noble Lord that evening would
doubtless have as great an effect as his previous
statement had had in calming the excitement of the
public mind, yet the country would not be composed
or tranquil until it had had an assurance that the ar-
rangement was perfectly complete. His Majesty's Minis-
ters, by their acts and statements, had proved to the
country more than ever how fully they were entitled to
the confidence of the nation. He trusted, therefore,
the arrangements that were in progress would soon be
brought to a close.—(Cheers,)
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition against tithes
from a place in Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman said the
declaration from the Noble Lord opposite had filled him
with regret. The si,uation of the country was such,
that it was impossible for the peace of Ireland to be
preserved, if such a state of things was suffered to exist.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY also expressed his regret, but
hoped in a very short time to hear better news from that
coun try.
_ _

Mr. PORTMAN received several petitions from the
county which be represents, but would defer presenting
them in consequence of hie Noble Friend's statement.
Mr. ROBINSON spoke to a similar effect.

Mr. WARBURTON said in the town of Lyme, a meet-
ing, attended by 1,200 persons, had sent him a petition,
which prayed that the supplies might be stopped by that
house till the Reform Bill was passed. Another meeting
for the same purpose was held at Bridport; in fact, she
whole western part of that county was of one mind on the
subject.
Lord ASHLEY must repeat his former statement. He
was not aware of the petitions which his Hon. eol-
league hail received, as well as those received by the Hon.
Member for Bridport. His opinion still was, that a large
majority in that county were opposed to the Bill.
Mr. PORTMAN had not seen his Noble calleague
since he hail received the petitions, and did not seem well
aware of the opinion entertained by the inhabitants of the
place which he represented.

Mr. HUNT said the Hon. Member who had spoken
last, once asked him whether he had not always sup-
ported Universal Suffrage. Having an opportunity now,
he wished to ask the Hon. Member whether he intended
to keep that promise which he had made on the hustings,
that if his Noble colleague were returned for Dorset, he
would retire ?

Mr. PORTMAN said, that if the House would allow
him, he should be very glad to avail himself of that op-
portunity to explain.— (No, no.) He had never made
any such pledge upon the hustings, nor in any respect
publicly. In reply to a letter be had received from his
Noble Colleague, which reply he at the time considered to
be a private communication to the Noble Lord, he had
made use of language which bore such a construction.
For he had said that if the Noble Lord should be able to
Ipiero(vAeltrh. at
otthe tmcaontrn sthy of
.uldDogrisve
etwasthe
a efrweeehaotliideercrsock county,
an
oppor-
tunity of furnishing another proof of their fickleness. Ac-
cordingly, when his Noble Friend was returned, he (Mr.
Portman) offered to resign ; but he was called on by the
principal freeholders not to throw the county into a state
of agitation by resigning, and it was solely in compliance
with that requisition that he retained his seat. He de-
nied, however, that he had given any public pledge to re-
sign, upon the return of the Noble Lord.
Lord ASHLEY had always looked upon the commu-
nication of his Hon. Friend as a public document, and he
hal used it as such by the advice of his Committee.—
(Hear.)
Mr. R. GORDON begged leave to confirm the state-
ment of the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, that it was on y
at the request of a large number of the freeholders that
that Gentleman retained his seat.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME had expected that he should have been
able to discharge the order for the call of the House on
Friday, and that the expectations of the country would
have been realized by the recall of the Ministers to office,
with power to carry the Reform Bill in a perfect state.
lie had been present the day before yesterday, at, perhaps,
the most numerous meeting he had ever seen—certainly
the most unanimous—and the universal desire was, that
the entire measure of Reform should be carried. He was
quite satisfied, that if Ministers allowed themselves to
yield one jot of the Bill, instead of receiving credit for
what they had done, they would severely disappoint the
well-founded expectations of the people.—(Cheers.) Of
course he did not refer to trifling alterations, but to essen-
tial points—(Cheers)—and he should be most happy—as
happy as any UM in the House—if it could be carried
with comparatively little opposition. It was, however,
too much fcr the country to be kept in a state of suspense
like that at present existing; and Ministers, in justice to
the zeal and anxiety expressed by the people, ought to be
as explanatory as possible upon the subject, in order that
the people might act accordingly.—(Hear, hear.) If no
additional and explicit assurance could be given—although
he might be sorry to give lion. Gentlemen the trouble of
attending to-morrow—he would not withdraw his notice
of calling over the House; as every man ought to be at
his post, to he prepared, if it must come, for disappoint-
ment. He would sit down, without saying more, than to
expi ess his regret that such an impediment or hitch should
have occurred in any quarter.
Mr. J. WOOD should not have risen even to mention
the petitions sent to him, but for the remark of the Noble
Lord (the Member for Dorsetshire), who said he could
answer for it, that in one county, at least, there was not
by any means an unanimous feeling in favour of Reform.
If such were the case in Dorsetshire, he (Mr. J. Wood)
believed that was the only province in the United Kingdom
which still submitted to be ruled by a boroughmongering
faction.—(Cheers.) He advised the Noble Lord to make
a tour into the north of England, in order that he might
become acquainted with the spirit universally prevailiug
there. He had been intrusted with petitions from various
parts of Lancashire, and especially from Manchester and
Preston, and in those districts the anxious expectations of
the people were raised to the highest possible point; and
he could testify that it would be most dangerous to disap-
point those expectations by deferring the Bill. The people
would co/odder that their fondest hopes were destroyed, if,
after the Ministers were restored, they did not, in a wan-
ner consistent with their lives and characters, carry the
Reform Bill unnsutilated.—(Cheers from all sides.)
Mr. HEYWOOD also should abstain from presenting
petitions transmitted to him. In no county of England
was the feeling in favour of Reform more intense than in
Lancashire; the inhabitants were most materially suffering
from the delay, and disappointment might be attended with
fatal consequences.

Captain LINDSAY thought it would be better if Hon.
Gentlemen on the other side would pause and examine the
precise circumstances of the case. The object of the Bill
was to deattoy the influence of the Peers in the Hdose of
Commons ; it had been passed here, and because, when it
arrived in the House of Lords, one part was only post-
poned to another, although the principle of Reform was
admitted, Ministers had thought proper to call upon the
King to create sixty or seventy Peers, in order that the
measure might be carried; not only the principle, but the
whole of the details.—(Hear, hear ! and No, no!) The
Noble Earl at the head of the Ministry had already made
thirty.one Peers, and yet, while he objected to nominee
Members of the House of Commons, he wished to make
sixty or seventy base, vassal nominees, to whom he was to
.slue his order, that the Reform Bill should be carried.
Was there justice, probity or principle in such a pro-
ceeding? He regretted the vote passel some nights ago,
and he apprehended that posterity would stare with asto-
nishment when they found that by it the House of Com-
mons had justified the creation of 101 nominee Peers, for
the purpose of carrying the Reform Bill.--(Hear!)
Lord ALTHORP—I undoubtedly thought that, by
common consent, under the circumstances of which

tile Howls 's' appr6.‘l,
was agreed not to he deelrahl,
to enter into a discussion on the subject,—(Cheers.)
must, however, beg to state to the Hon. Gentleman, if he
does not sce what every other Member must see, and what
the whole country does see, that the question in the
Rouse of Lords was not, as he assumes, a mere question
of detail, but a question which materially affected th,
principle of the 11111.—(Cheers, and cries of No, no.)
After the late decision, Ministers could not attempt, con-
sistently with their own pledged honour, to carry the Bill
through the Committee of the other House. It is, there-
fore, vain to say that it was only a trifling question• of
detail. How was it argued? Was it argued as a trifling
question of detail? Certainly not. We always put the
principle of the Bill upon this—that nomination boroughs
were an evil that must be got rid of ; and yet the clauses
for their abolition were to be postponed to the enfran-
chising clauses. No person who knew the effect of the
division, could doubt for a moment that it was not pos-
sible for Ministers, with honour, to carry the Bill farther.
Mr. BARING—I hope that the observation of the
lion. Member, under the circumstances, may be allowed
to pass without further reply, in order that the discussion
may atop here.—(Cheers.) Whatever may be the
anxieties, and there are none greater than my own, Hon.
Members must be sensible that in the course of the ar-
rangements to which the Noble Lord has referred, no-
thing can tend more to embarras, and do injury, than the
prolongation of this discussion.—(Hear.) If it be con-
tinued, of course it will be impossible for me and other
Members to remain silent, but I entreat the House to let
the subject drop here.—(Cheers.) I only beg to be
allowed to make a single observation, not likely to provoke
controversy, but to remove an impression which has
pervaded the country, and in some degree this blouse.
I am not authorized to speak for any body, but I think it
just to sly, on the part of his Majesty—if on his Majesty's
part I may be permitted to say it, and it is due to him
that the country should know—that at no one period did
1 ever understand, as, indeed, I said on a former occasion,
that it was the King's intention in the slightest degree to
vary from the pledge he bad given to the country, or to
form an Administration which would not carry the efficient
principles of Reform.—(Hear, hear.) I state distinctly
that to be the fact. It is competent to all to throw as much
opproprium as they please upon those who might be dis-
posed to enter the King's Councils in the face of such a
pledge. I have ventured very humbly to contend, that it
might be done with honour and consistency ; but what-
ever slur is applicable to the Advisers of the King, in no
part of the negotiation can it be said that there was the
slightest departure by his Majesty from the pledges he had
given.—(Much cheering.)
The petitioa was brought up and read.
Sir R. PRICE observed, that during the discussion not
a word had been said against his Majesty or the Queen.
He should refrain from presenting a petition he had re-
ceived, but be could assert, that even in his quiet part of
the country the deepest interest prevailed.
Mr. HUNT remarked that in some parts of the metro.
polis people bad talked of sending a certain family to
Hanover. It was but justice to the King, that what had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Thetford should be known.
Mr. CURTEIS referred to the late meeting on the
Steyne, at Brighton, attended, as was asserted, by 10,000
persons ; be bad received a petition, signed (we understood
bim to say) by 2,000 names, the presentation of which
he should delay until a more convenient time.--The pe-
tition was laid on the table.
DEATH FOR FORGERY.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Athy,
against the punishment with death for forgery. He ex-
pressed a hope that the Attorney-General would ere long
bring in a Bill to amend the law in this respect.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL expected soon to be
enabled to do so, and that it would go as far as the mea-
sure that bad passed the Commons and hid been rejected
by the House of Lords; it would abolish the punishment
of death in all cases of forgery, as it had been done in all
cases of coining.
Sir R. PEEL (in consequence of something that fell
from the Attorney- General, which did not reach the gal-
lery) protested against the doctrine, that Judges could
not carry the existing law into execution, because the
House of Commons had passed the Bill, which was not
approved by the other branch of the Legislature.
Mr. LENNARD said, that the whole commercial and
manufacturing interest of the country were united against
the present state of the law.
Mr. H. GRATTAN contended that the severity of the
law prevented its execution.
Sir E. SUGDEN said, that all parties were not agreed
oa the expediency of abolishing the punishment of death in
cases of forgery.
Dr. LUSHINGTON argued that the punishment of
death ought never to be inflicted in any eases where a se-
condary punishment would sufficiently deter from crime.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL denied that he bad ever
broached the doctrine attributed to him by Sir R. Peel.
Sir R. PEEL, Mr. EWAAT, Mr. BARING, Mr. CAMP-
BELL, Mr. HUNT, and Sir J. SCARLET; each said a few
werds on the same subject.
The petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr O'CONNELL presented a petition of a similar na.
ture, from the inhabitants of Folkestone, in Kent, pray-
the House to take into consideration the means by which
the severity of our Penal Code might be mitigated.