The Sun.
London, England, 1866-05-15 00:00:00

tion." I come then to the conclusion that any system of
grouping founded on the grouping of represented towns
must prove a complete failure, will disappoint all expecta-
tions, and is one that this house ought not to sanction.
(Cheers.) As a general rule, I should say, in periodically,
but not too often, reviewing our representative system
and making our borough representation more complete
and safe the true principle is in moderation and discretion
to reduce the representation of the old bo;oughs, and to
apply that redundancy to representation of new boroughs,
so that no place shall be perfectly disfranchised. It has
always been our custom in this country, and one which I
trust we shall not depart from, to treat with kindness pre-
scriptive rights, and I am quite certain that any Minister
who dealt in that spirit with the old boroughs would re-
ceive a more sincere support than he possibly can attain by
anything so violent and fanciful as the soheme of grouping
represented boroughs which is placed before us. But am I
therefore an opponent of the system of grouping? Far
from it. I think it is one that well deserves the earnest
consideration of the house ; it is a powerful and an efficient
instrument, if used with vigour and discretion. But where
I think it may be of great advantage would be if we were
to leave the present boroughs alone, and yet avail ourselves
of their redundant representation, applying the principle
of grouping to our unrepresented boroughs. (Hear.) Now,
I am quite certain if that were done, as I say, with vigour
and discretion, you would add considerably to the effi-
ciency of the constituencies, and at the same time you
would go a great way towards the solution of those im
mense difficulties connected with the county franchise
which beset every Ministry who attempt to deal with this
question, and which the present Ministry have not at-
tempted to encounter. (Cheers.) Let me give a striking
illustration of what would be the effect of adopting the
system of grouping our unrepresented towns. I don't
know that the advantage of the system could be put in a
more striking manner than by reference to some places
with which the house is familiar. Now, take the first of
the new boroughs to be enfranchised—and I willingly and
cordially approve the proposition to enfranchise them. Let
me take the town of Middlesborough, in Yorkshire--a town
which has very recently risen into existence, principally
from the ironstone of the Cleveland hills. In 1859 it was
impossible we could give a representative to Middles-
borough ; but it is now a town of 19,000 inhabitants, and
no doubt it is increasing rapidly. That population is not
so very large and extensive that its claim to a representa-
tive, if there was not a convenient opportunity for enter-
taining it, would disturb the country by the agitation of a
measure of Reform. (A laugh.) I don't, however, find
fault with the Government for their proposal to enfran-
chise it, because I have great confidence in its future ; but
close to Middlesborough is that important and most flourish-
ing town, Stockton-on-Tees, with its population of 13,300.
I would join the two, which would make up an electoral
population of 32,300. Tbat is the way in which I would
treat Middlesborough. (Cheers.) Will the house now
allow me to call attention to Dewsbury 2 I mention it be-
cause it is the only one of those places—with exception of
Middlesborough, which did not exist—that I, as the organ
of Lord Derby's Government, did not propose to enfran-
chise. I was peidectly well aware of its claims, but its
population did not warrant such a proposal then. Even
now it is only 18,100. There, again, you would not agitate
the country by a measure of Parliamentary Reform to give
a member to Dewsbury ; but you will find that it is the
centre of a cluster of towns, engaged in the same indus-
trial pursuits, and distinguished by the same energy. I
would take all these towns, the furthest of which is not, I
believe, more than five or six miles from Dewsbury. They
are almost conterminous—Batley, with a population of
7,200 ; Birstall, 43,505 ; Cleckheaton, 4,721; Heckmond-
wike, 8,600; Merfield, 9,263 ; making in all a population
of 73,289. Joining these with Dewsbury you would have
a population of 91,389. (Cheers.) Why, that is what I
call grouping. You would do more by such a system to
improve the representation of the people than you can
possibly do by those fantastic arrangements through
which you are attacking ancient prescription. (Hear,
hear.) Let us come then to Burnley. It is our old
friend ; it was introduced by us in the Bill of 1852 ; and
every one has been trying to enfranchise Burnley ever
since. Burnley had only about 20,000 inhabitants when
Lord Russell commenced with it. It has now 28,700
—no doubt a very respectable population, but nothing very
extraordinary. You have near it Cilne, with a population
of 6,300 ; Padiham, 5,600 ; Accrington,
13,800 ; Todmor-
den, 11,800-37,500. Add these to Burnley, and you will
have a population of 65,200. (Cheers.) That is the way
to group. (Hear, hear.) Take a fourth borough, one which
we have all proposed to give a member to. The population
of Staleybridge has increased during the last seven years ;
but the population of towns near it—which were of im-
portance in 1859, but not of sufficient importance to justify
us in dealing with them—has also increased. There are
three towns intimatedly connected with Staleybridge—
Glossop, with a population of 19,000; Hyde, with 13,700 ;
and Duldiafield, with 15,000, or with a united population
of 47,700. If you join these towns to Staleybridge you
will have a population of 72,700. (Cheers.) I will Sat
nothing about Hartlepool, because I believe that it is pro-
posed to unite the two Hartlepools, and I am sure that such
a constituency will send us good men. Then I would add
Dartford to Gravesend, and, the population of the former
being 5,300 and that of the latter 18,800, you would bave
a population of 24,100. (Cheers.) By grouping in this
way I think you would obtain a very considerable accession
to the constituency; and I believe that if you dealt with
the question in such a manner you would have the fi iendly
co-operation of the oal boroughs themselves. Having
touched on the question of grouping, and. on the manner
in which, if this bill should be carried, additional members
are to be furnished, what I want to impress on the house
at this moment is the important effect which, dealing with
the subject in this manner—if the Government would
adopt it, would have on the vexed question of the county
franchises, which I do recommend to the earnest considers-
tiou of the house. (Hear, hear.) Don't lot us look on
this as a mere party measure, or as a motion such as that
of the hon. member for Surrey, which may be carried or
not this year, and for which, if it be carried and should
fail, a remedy may be found next year. Let us feel that
our legislation on this question of Parliamentary Reform
will affect the future of this country. Generations after
us will feel the consequences of what we are doing
at this moment ; and, for my part, I should be very
sorry that when I have left the scene my name
should be recalled as that of one who supported a measure
which affected in a considerable degree the character of the
Constitution of this country—a Constitution to which we
are all so attached. (Cheers.) On a former occasion, though
I did not evade the other portions of the proposal of the
Government, I touched particularly on the question of the
county consituencies, because I thought it had not been so
directly treated. Tasked the house to consider what the
effect would be on our county constituencies of a great re-
duction of the franchise when, at the same time, causes
were in operation which were continually changing the
character of those consitituencies, so that they were fast
losing their distinctive character. Though I was ready, as
I always have been ready and am ready now, to treat this
question in a large and liberal spirit, what I contended for
—not in the interests of party, not in the interests of this
side of the house, but in the interests of the-country—
was that you should maintain the distinctive character of
the county constituencies. If that be true which was said
by a great master of politics—" It is wise that the energy
and enterprise of the cities should be tempered by the re-
pose and steadfastness of the country"—if that be true, it
is the interest of every one in this house—except we have
some few eccentric persons among us—that we- should, if
possible, make the character of the county constituencies
really what it appears to be. Unquestionably one of the
means by which the character of the county constituencies
is so perverted is this—that in the counties there are a
great number of cities or towns which have distinctive in-
terests of their own, and which ought to be represented,
but are not represented. There can bo no doubt that these
towns very much change the character which otherwise
would be peculiar to the constituencies of the counties
(hear, hear)—but if you were to group on the system
which I have pointed out you might do much to get rid
of that perversion of the character of the county consti-
tuencies. There is another way of doing it which I placed
before the house at great length on a former occasion, and
which I will now merely allude to—that is, the revision of
the boundaries of the Parliamentary boroughs. (Hear,
hear.) I was told at the time that when this bill was
brought forward we should fiud an arrangement which
would meet objections of the kind. But I must say I have
been entirely disappointed in that expectation. The argu-
ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that point
has been utterly unsatisfactory. (Hear, hear.) I stated
that the Parliamentary boundaries is the second great cause
why the character of the county constituency is perverted.
It is difficult to contendagainst that with a high occupation
franchise. But when you lower the franchise you aggra-
vate all the sources of the injury, and at the same time you
offer no remedy whatever for the evils which exist. Now,
what do I find? The Government repudiates altogether
a general revision of the boundaries of Parliamentary
boroughs. But it says, on the other hand, " We have a
great scheme, and that is that the boundaries of Parlia-
mentary and municipal boroughs should be identical."
[Sir G. Grey was understood to express dissent.] I read
in tho bill -that the municipal and Parliamentary bounda-
ries were to be identical. (Hear, hear.) It is a slight
matter, but, at all events, having gone through all the
clauses—l won't trouble the house with details, for I have
taken up too much of its time already— I must say, if the
remedy is,as I fancy, the result must practically be that the
Parliamentary and municipal boundaries are to be identi-
cal. These questions, however, arc so rare that they won't
at all affect the main issue, nor will they remedy the
grievance of which we complain. According to the rest
of the scheme connected with municipal boundaries, you
propose to call the extra municipal population into the
centre of the Parliamentary borough, if that population
desired it. But that they would desire it, that the extra
municipal population would become Parliamentary, ap-
pears to me very doubtful, because the reason why people
build their mills and their houses without the municipal
boundary is that they should not, be subject to municipal
rates. (Hear, hear.) As the desire of the extra municipal
population is to be the centre-point of the arrangement, I
believe that very little will 5e done. (Hear, hear.)
Now, these are the two heads under which the great evil

of which we complain is aggravated. That great evil is
that since the boundaries have been settled there has been
an increase of 3,500,000 in the urban population, and
with that population the county electors are to be
qualified by this new bill. (Hear, hear.) It is no an-
swer to the case I have put to say that that is to be done
only with the towns where the majority of the population
is beyond the Parliamentary borough. But thero was au
extraordinary argument used by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and I allude to it because it is another instance
of the false analogy in which he indulged. The Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer said—
" Take care how you revise the boundaries of Parlia-
mentary boroughs. Take care not to press the matter too
far. If we revise the boundaries of Birmingham and the
great northern towns, we must revise the Parliamentary
boundaries of other boroughs in England to which the ag-
ricultural districts have been appended."

Sir, that is no answer whatever. What I say is this, "Sup-
port the settlement made by the Reform Bill." The "ba-
lance of power," as I may call it, the balance of influence
that was settled by the Reform Bill, is what we want you
to maintain. (Hear, hear.) That settlement was not made
in favour of the Conservative party. It was made by a Li-
beral Government—a Liberal Government supportedby an
immense Liberal majority, and therefore we have a right
to conclude that very little favour was shown to us. (Hear,
hear.) We find that the boundaries in 1832 have in the
large towns practically been entirely violated, and violated
to the injury of the legitimate influence of the county po-
pulation. (Hear.) And what is your answer ? Where the
population has.not increased, because in that part of the
country in which the boroughs to which I allude are situ-
ated the population has not increased, in answer to us, who
are seeking to maintain the settlement of 1832, and to save
ourselves from the violation of our boundaries, you reply,
" Oh ! we must examine the boundaries of the other parts
of England where those boundaries have not been violated."
(Hear.) Well, sir, I have asked the House to consider
these questions, which are particular points in the Bill we
are asked to read a second time, and which refer principally
to the borough franchise, but upon the right understand-
ing of which the county franchise particularly depends.
We are called upon greatly to reduce the borough fran-
chise. We complain that as the franchise is now ar-
ranged there are certain evils which call for a remedy.
There is a large mass of the population to whom we don't
grudge the franchise, but to whom we say, "Exercise it
where your industry, capital, and interests are placed."
(Hear, hear.) We complain that with the present occupa-
tion franchise the legitimate influence of the counties is in-
terfered with. You do nothing in this bill, whether by the
grouping of boroughs or the settlement of b oundaries, to
give us relief in any way for that most anomalous griev-
ance by which the freeholder of a borough votes not for
the place in which his freehold is contained, but for a
place with which he has no connexion. (Hear.) That evil
you immensely aggravate by the present bill, because all
those boroughs which we are going to enfranchise now
possess a great number of freeholders, and there again you
obtain a great increase of the county voters. In addition
to this, you burrow into the country for legions of lease-
holders. (Hear.) How are we to deal with the Govern-
ment when they meet us in such a spirit? How are we to
meet them ? If the Government came forward and said,
" This is a great occasion, and we are perfectly aware of
the justice of your claims. In our judgment you may take
an extreme view on this point. But we feel there is some
propriety in your requisition. At any rate, you may depend
upon our anxiety to meet in a legitimate manner tho diffe-
rent wants and wishes of all classes in the community."
But the position in which we have long been placed, and
which is an unjust position, is now to be aggravated. You
have additional sources of injury to turn against us. (Hear,
hear.) Now, let me remind the house of the circumstances
under which these measures have been introduced to us.
What I say is known to every gentleman on this side, and
I believe to the vast majority on the other. If, when Par-
liament met, a measure for the improvement of the repre-
sentation of the people, temperate, well-digested, and
tolerably fair, had been breught forward, it would have
been my duty, with the entire advice and concurrence of
all with whom I act, to have agreed to the second reading.
(Hear.) No secret was made of that. It was unneces-
sary to intimate it. It was the course we have invariably
pursued. In 1860, when Lord J. Russell introduced his
measure, that was the line of action which we followed.
W e immediately consented to the second reading, and that
measure, though defeated, was not defeated by the Conser-
vative party. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. Russell himself ad-
mitted that. He has left it on record, and I shall repeat
his words. In his own terse language he says :
"I was defeated by the Liberal party—and not only by
the Liberal party, but by those members of the Liberal
party who represented great constituencies."

(Cheers.) I was astonished to hear the Secretary of State
impute to us in 18G0 that we loaded the paper with amend-
ments. But what is more natural? And is it not always
understood that you are to exert yourselves to the utmost
to make a measure of the kind advantageous to the coun-
try ? (Hear, hear.) What an extraordinary_ charge to
make ! We had agreed to the second reading ; and is it not
a singular proof of the hostility of the Opposition that we
should absolutely have put amendments 'on the paper?
(Cheers.) I say, then, that the extraordinary cause of de-
lay as regards this measure is not to be attributed to us.
It is difficult to know to whom it is to be attributed—l
won't say it is difficult, but I won't point out who it is.
(A laugh.) My object to-night is to touch upon things of
another kind. I will nct advert to the unfortunate conduct
of the Government in the management of their Bills. A
great deal of time has undoubtedly been lost; but to whom-
cover the fault may be attributed this I will say, it is not
want of time that will prevent this Bill being fairly con-
sidered, and, if a good measure, being passed. (Cheers.)
We can all of us make a great effort if time bo the only
thing wanting. We can sit in the morning and in the even-
ing. (A laugh.) We could cheerfully devote ourselves to
a task which was necessary, which the country required,
the,object of which was clearly understood by us, and which
was clearly understood by its projectors. The House of
Commons would soon make up for lost time ; but, Sir, the
cause of the Bill not advancing, the cause of the uncom-
fortable position in which the country, the House of Com-
mons, and the Government are placed with regard to this
measure is other than loss of time. I am sure I do not at
this moment wish to say anything which could injure the
self-complacency of any individual in this house—(laugh-
ter)—but there are moments when one must be frank.
When there is so much at stake—when there is so much at
stake as the future of a great empire, one must be frank;
though so far from wishing to offend any one, I say that,
to use an expression of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if
I do offend any one, 1 apologise for it beforehand. (Laugh-
ter.) But it is not time, it is not want of time, thatprevents
our legislating in the matter. It is something else - I say
it sincerely, and I wish to speak temperately—it is the want
of maturity both in design and preparation which has at-
tended the measures of the Government in this matter.
(Cheers.) Now, Sir, permit me very briefly to prove that
statement, for it is of the utmost importance when we aro
called upon to read a bill of this magnitude for the second
time after only a week's consideration. (Cheers.) Talk of
wasting time ! At any rate, that was a course that was
compensatory for such ladies. (Laughter.) When Parlia-
went met we were promised information—papers upon the
position of the borough franchise. They were not given
to us for a considerable period. I wish to speak my own
opinion sincerely with regard to these papers. " I think
them very valuable papers, and though they may have
been, and unquestionably it was proved that they were,
hurriedly prepared in some cases, I believe they were bona
fide, and prepared with great ability and sincerity. (Cheers.)
Well, Sir, those papers were placed before us; though the
house will recollect the almost despairing expressions of
the Secretary of State when he pressed him for those
papers, which conveyed to the house little prospect of their
ever appearing, only a few days or hours before the intro-
duction of the bill, when wet from the press, and confes-
sedly, I think, not read by the Chancellor of the Exche-
quor, they were placed upon the table. They were, as I
say, very important papers, and I, for one, received them
with that respect which was due to the source from which
they originated. Let it be remembered, however, that not
only were they hurriedly prepared, but that the principal
organ of the Government, the highest authority on the sub-
ject, after having examined them, rose in his place and in-
formed the house that they were utterly untrustworthy.
(Cheers.) Well, sir, there is another branch of information
which was required upon this important subject, and that
was information respecting the condition of the county
franchise. None was given to us, to the great disappoint-
ment and surprise of the house. But, although no infor-
mation, no statistics, no papers respecting the county
franchise were given, it would be unfair in me if I did not
admit we were amply and frankly informed of the views of
her Majesty's Government on that important subject, espe-
cially with reference to the point which is the origin of this
legislation— viz., the position which the working classes
occupy in the constituencies. The papers which the Go-
vernment hurriedly placed before us with regard to the
borough franchise produced a considerable sensation in
the house, because they proved, and proved, I think,
conclusively, that the working classes already possessed a
considerable status in the borough franchise. (Hear, hear.)
But her Majesty's Government, though they gave us no
papers respecting the county franchise, did frankly and ex-
plicitly give us the result of their deliberations on that
subject, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the chief
organ of the Government in this house, and especially on
this subject, informed us that in the county franchise the
working classes were an infinitesimal quantity ; and, in
fact, that no papers were produced as to their position with
regard to the county franchise because, in their opinion,
they possessed no share in that franchise. You romeniber
the expression of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I, in
an unhappy moment, not wishing to give any offence, made
an observation across the table—l will never make one
again—(laughter)--and on account of that observation I
was violently denounced by the right hon. gentleman, and,
in fact,l was almost afraid of my life.(Cheers andlaughter.)
" There may," he said, " be some few working men in your
county who have votes, but in county constituencies the
working man is as the fly in a pot of ointment."
Those were his words, and I never shall for-
get his look. (Laughter.) Well, sir, from that
moment 1 have been engaged with the assistance of some
gentlemen who are most.practised in such mutters, in en-

deavouring to obtain information upon this subject.
entirely foreign to my habit ever to offer to the house any
information which as a private member I may obtain. I
think that in our debates, as a general rule, nothing is more
salutary than that we should argue,-and certainly that we
should legislate, only from authentic and official statistics
furnished by the Government. But these are cases, when
the Government makes statements which you doubt—when
they do not furnish you with information—when they de-
cline to furnish you with information—when they scoff at
you for asking for information—(cheers)—there are cases
when you are thrown upon your own resources, and I
should be grateful to any man who had been long sitting
in this house, and who had been not altogether unaccus-
tomed to the management of such affairs, if, with the be-
coming modesty which such a situation would require, he
offered—not for the adoption of the house, but for its con-
sideration—such results as he may have arrived at. What,
therefore, I am going to say I do not want the house to
accept with any unreasoning credulity, but in that spirit in
which I would accept them when in Parliamentary life I
received such communications. We did—l won't say
thoroughly, but we investigated the subject, and we had
communications from many parts of the kingdom. We re-
ceived them from men in official positions who could give
us authentic information, and I am bound to say we have re-
ceived that information from gentlemen of Liberal opinions
as freely and as numerously as from gentlemen of Con-
servative opinions. We have only had one object, which
was to arrive at the result; and the result at which we have
arrived at is this—of course the details aro in some respects
imperfect, but in others they are very ample—the result is
this, and I believe it will eventually be demonstrated if the
Government, as I hope, will give orders for an official verifi-
cation orinvestigation into these matters—that the working
men of England have a larger share of the county consti-
tuency than they have even of the borough constituency,
and by which the Government were so startled. (Cheers.)
I ask the house, then, is not this another evidence of the
immaturity in which all these matters have been dealt with ?
(Cheers) Let me sincerely say that in dealing with this
portion of the subject—viz., the county franchise—a Go-
vernment who really believed that the working classes had
no share whatever in the constituencies were scarcely
qualified to address the house in the manner in which we
have been addressed, and told that if we did not pass these
measures instantly Parliament should never be prorogued.
(Loud cheers.) And now I pass to the third subject, on
which I venture to say the same immaturity has been ex-
emplified, and that is the subject of Parliamentary bounda-
ries. It is quite clear that when the bill was first brought
forward in this house this subject was one which had
hardly occurred to the Government, and had occurred to
them only as ono of comparative insignificance. It is no
answer to me to say, "You did not vigorously deal with it
in 1859." We did something, but the years that have suc-
oeeded 1859 have immenselyaggravated the circumstances;
and what the house has to decide is not upon the compara-
tive lathes of one Ministry and another, but upon what
ought to be done for the public good. (Cheers) I say,
then, that the manner in which that subject has been
treated, and now hurriedly dealt with by the Government,
is a third proof of the immaturity of their proceedings in
this matter. (Cheers.) Well, Sir, the fourth proof, I think,
is the bill before the house. If there be a subject which
will most tax the profundity and the discretion of a Minis-
try, it is the distribution of Parliamentary seats, which is,
in fact, the distribution of political power in this country--
(hear, hear) —and I say that it was impossible to have pro
duced a scheme upon the subject more troublesome, more
vexatious,iand which, at the same time, produced less satis-
factory results. But are we to be surprised at such conse-
quences ? Is it not notorious that when the Franchise
Bill was introduced the Minister who introduced it never
even contemplated a bill for the redistribution of seats—
(cheers)—and that this vast subject, which required so
much thought, so much research, such temper, such forbear-
ance, and such firmness alike, was never considered except
in the few hasty days—or hours rather—which they snatched
from other engrossing labours during the agitated fort-
night between which it was promised and Produced ? Is
this, or is it not, anotherproof of the immaturity with which
all these measures have been prepared ? (Hear, hear.) Well,
sir, I am told as I walk down to the House of Commons
every day—l am told by men in the street as I come down
Parliament-street, " Awn forte vie sacra"—(a laugh)—
somebody tells me, " I hope you are going to settle the
question." Sir, ignorance never settles a question. Ques-
tions must be settled by knowledge, and it is not the vexa-
tion of an opposition, from which ever side of the house it
may come, that prevents this bill from advancing. It is
that we none of us see our way—l say it with a frankness
that I trust will be pardoned. I don't believe the question
of Parliamentary reform is thoroughly understood by the
country— (hear, hear)—is thoroughly understood by this
house—(hear, hear) ; and, although I dare only utter it in
a whisper, I don't believe that it is thoroughly understood
by her Majesty's Government. (Cheers and laughter.) I
recollect a pass age in the clasLic Plato where the great sage
descants upon what he calls "double ignorance," and that
is where a man is ignorant that he is ignorant. (Cheers
and laughter.) But, sir, in legislating there is another kind
of double ignorance that is fatal to proper legislation.
There is, in the first place, an ignorance of principles, and
in the second, an ignorance of the facts upon which those
principles are based. And that is our position in dealing
with this important question. There is not a majority in
this house that can decide upon the principles upon which
we ought to legislate in regard to this matter ; there is not
a man in this house who has at his command any reliable
facts upon which he can decide those principles. (Hear.)
Bet then the question arises—What are we to do? I admit
the difficulty. I do not shut my eyes to the position in
which we are placed. The country, the House of Com-
mons are—it is a clsssical, although it may seem an
idiomatic phrase, as it was used by Dean Swift -in a
scrape. (Cheers and laughter.) And I should despair
of escaping from this perplexity and this predicament
had I not unlimited confidence in the good nature and
the good sense of the House of Commons. We must
help the Government. (Cheers and laughter. We must
forget the last two months. The right honourable gen-
tleman must recross the Rubicon, he must build up his
bridges, and we will supply him with vessels. The right
hon. gentleman is in a position in which he can retire from
this question of reform for the moment with dignity .to
himself and to his colleagues. He must not sacrifice his
country, his party, or his own great name to a feeling of
pique. (Hear, hear.) He is still supported by a majority;
he is not in the position of a Minister whose reputation
and the fortune of whose Cabinet aro staked upon indivi-•
dual measures in a house wherein it is known that he is
in a minority. That has been the unfortunate position of
others, but it is not his. He occupies a far different posi-
tion, in deference to what I believe to be the wish of the
country and the desire di the House of Commons. Now,
what hag he to do ? It seems to mo that the most advan-
tageous and the most dignified conduct for him to adopt
would be this :—Let him at once give instructions that
complete and accurate statistics shall be prepared with re-
gard to the borough franchise—not hurriedly, but with
time and with attention, and in an impartial manner, so
that no person shall be able to rise and say that we are
called on to legislate upon this question upon facts which
are utterly untrustworthy. Let him, recognising the un-
fortunate admissions which the Government under the mis-
taken views which they adopted with reference to the
county constituencies, give immediate orders that the most
ample information should be acquired as to the share which
the working classes of this country possess in the county
franchise ; let him direct that such information should be
provided with care and discrimination. I think such in-
quiries may be trusted with safety and security to those
persons who have provided us with the information we
now have relating to boroughs, and which are imperfect
merely because of the hurried manner in which it was pro-
duced. Let the right hon. gentleman, then, to-morrow,
after consulting his colleagues, give orders that sub-com-
missioners, acting under the Enclosure Commissioners,
should visit all the Parliamentary boroughs of England
and report upon their boundaries. Let the right hon, gen-
tleman give up this scheme of grouping represented
boroughs, which he must see is repudiated by both sides
of the house ; let him boldly acknowledge that the pro-
per way of dealing with t subject is to appeal to the
spirit of justice of the represented boroughs to spare him
a few members from their superfluity; let him prepare a
well-digested and complete scheme, which will give repro-
s entation where required upon the principle of grouping
the unrepresented towns of the country ; and, having done
all these things, let him consider the results with his col-
leagues, and when Parliament meets again he will have
the opportunity—which I am willing to give him every
credit for—of submitting to our consideration a measure
which will command the sympathies of the country, and
which will obtain the sanction of Parliament. The right
hon. gentleman resumed his seat amid loud cheers.

Mr. CA.RDWELL, on the part of the Government, de-
clined to follow the advice of Mr. Disraeli, and contended
that the measure was one of sound and constitutional Re-
form, while the views enunciated by Mr. Disraeli were
altogether opposed to the spirit of the Reform Act. He
defended the propositions of the Government, especially
with reference to the grouping of boroughs, and said that
if they wished to throw the question of Reform over alto-
gether, they could adopt no more effectual means than
sending out a commission and endeavouring, upon their
report, to group in various parts of the country a variety
of places which were now unrepresented. The bill had
been introduced, not with the view of benefiting any par-
ticular class, but with the view of benefiting every branch
of the community. He trusted that by the moderation of
party faction, and the exercise of the good sense and judg-
ment of the house, parliament would bo able, during the
present session, to bring to a satisfactory conclusion this
lung-agitated question.

Mr. A. WALSH remarked that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, according to his own showing, had been dazzled
by the splendour of Canning and caught by the glitter of
Birmingham. But was there any reason for believing that
his viows and opinions were entirely settled ? The present
bill affected 79 seats, 48 of which were Conservative and 31
Liberal. He had been somewhat astonished to find 8,000
selected as the limit above which the seats should not be
interfered with, but on turning to " Dod's Parliamentary
Companion" ho found that of the 17 additional seats which
would have been affected if the limit had been raised to