The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-04 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY).
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

Earl GREY presented a petition from the English resi-
dents at Hong Kong, complaining of the prevalence of
piracy in the Chinese seas, and the inefficient measures
taken for its extinction by the authorities. It was further
believed by the petitioners that the officials at that place
participated in the profits of the unlawful trade.
The Earl of CARNARVON said he thought the com-
plaints of the petitioners were much exaggerated, and he
thought the noble lord was labouring under some misap-
prehension. He had seen in the Colonial-office
a very voluminous correspondence on the subject,
and consequently it was very difficult to arrive at any satis-
factory opinion on the matter.
After a few-words from Earl GREY, the subject dropped.
THE FOREIGN ARMAMENTS.
Lord BROUGHAM said it had been stated that
he expressed- his satisfaction at the answer he had
received from the noble earl (the Earl of Malmesbury)
to the question he put the other night, relative to warlike
preparations in a neighbouring country. What he
said was that the answer he had received
tallied exactly with the information he had received. He
.expressed no opinion on the subject whatever.
EDUCATION IN INDIA.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH asked the noble duke oppo-
site (Argyll) whether it would not be better to postpone
the motion he had on the paper with
respect to education in India. He thought
it would be better if the whole subject was left in the hands
of her Majesty's Government.
The Duke of ARGYLL said he did not think a discus-
sion on this subject would increase any danger in India.
The Earl of DERBY said the attention of the Govern-
ment had been directed to the report received in this
country from India on the subject of education. The Se-
cretary of State for India had called for a fuller report from
the Indian authorities, and until that was received he
thought it better that all discussion should be postponed. ,
The motion was then postponed sine die, and their lord,
ships immediately afterwards adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PETITIONS.
_ _ _

• -.
Petitions were presented praym g for an inquiry, by com-
mittee of the house, into the working of the public-house
licensing act ; for placing letter-carriers and others em-
ployed in provincial post-offices on the same footing as
those engaged in the metropolitan post-office ; for
conducting the inquiry into the operation of Forbes
Mackenzie's Act in Scotlanil by Royal commis-
sion, instead of by committee ; for the removal
of restrictions tending to impede British navigation ;
against the renewal of the licence of the Hudson Bay
Company ; for placing conveyancers in the Court of Pro-
bate and the COurt for the Transfer of Estates on the same
footing as the attorneys in other courts ; against the Luna-
tic Asylums Act; against the admission of lunatics into
gaols ; against the legalising of marriage with a deceased
wife's sister, on the ground that such would be opposed
to Scripture and social welfare (chiefly from the clergy
and from ladies) ; and against the immigration of coolies
into the West India Islands.
BRITISH MUSEUM.

Mr. GREGORY gave notice of motion to inquire into
the organisation of the British Museum.
AMBASSADORS, CONSULS, &c.
On the motion of Mr. WISE, returns were ordered of all
the ambassadors, envoys, ministers, charge d'affaires, sec-
retaries of embassy and legation, paid and unpaid attaches,
who have been appointed since the Ist day of January,
1856 ; stating their salaries, the date of their appoint-
ment, their previous services in any department, and
whether the paid and unpaid attaches have passed any examination on their first nomination or promotion, accord-
ing to the regulations approved by the Earl of Clarendon
in 1856 ;—for return of all the consuls general, consuls,
vice consuls, consular agents, consular assistants, inter-
preters, secretaries, and students who have been appointed
since the Ist day of Jan., 1856; .stating their salaries, the
date of their appointment, their previous services in the con-
sular or any other department, and whether they have passed
any examinationpreviouslyto entering the service, according
to the regulations approved by the Earl of Clarendon in 1856
for return of all the Queen's foreign service messengers,
extra foreign service messengers, and home service messen-
gers appointed since the Ist day of January, 1850, as well
as of th.ose now attached to the establishment of the Foreign-
office, stating the date of appointment, the salaries, and pre-
vious employment in any department of her Majesty's ser-
vice.

REGISTER OF TITLES TO LAND.
Mr. CAIRD asked the Lord Advocate whether he in-
tended to bring forward a measure for improving the regis-
ters of titles to land ; and whether he intended to diminish
the cost of registration and search in Scotland.
The LORD ADVOCATE said, with reference to the
first question, a bill was prepared, but he could not say
when it would be introduced ; and with regard to the
second. the Government was not in possession of full infor-
mation on the matter alluded to.
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS.
Mr. MACKIE asked the Lord Advocate whether, under
the Act 10 and 11 Vic., c. 47, relating to the service of
heirs, or under any other statute, or by any practice of the
Scottish courts, the sheriff of the county, where any altera-
tion or amendment in the course of proceedings is necessary,
has power to attach a condition to money payments to
charitable institutions before pronouncing decree of service ?
The LORD ADVOCATE declined giving an answer to
the question.

THE MINISTERIAL REFORM BILL.
Mr. DODSON' asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
'whether he would lay upon the table of the house the data
upon which was founded the Government estimate, that the
extension of the right of suffrage to £lO occupiers would in-
crease the number of county voters in England and Wales
by no less than 200,000.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
documents were already on the table.

THE STADE DUES.
Mr. RICARDO asked the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs at what date the notice for the termination
of the treaty of the 22d July, 1844, in reference to the
Stade Dues between the United Kingdom and
.Hanover, according to - the eighth artice of that
treaty, was given to the Hanoverian Government :
Whether that notice was withdrawn or suspended ; if so,
whether it had been renewed, and at what date the said
treaty will actually terminate under the notice announced
to the house as having been given by the Under Secretary
of State ?

Mr. S. FITZ GERALD said that the treaty had not been
renewed, because it was considered that it had not yet
expired.

THE NEW FOREIGN OFFICES.
In reply to Mr. CONINGHAM,
Lord J. MANNERS said that as soon as the working
drawings and estimates of cost of the Foreign-offices were
ready the designs would be exhibited.
FOREIGN TROOPS IN ITALY.
Mr. HORSMAN gave notice of his intention to ask the
Obvernment a question on this subject.
THE INDIA LOAN BILL.
In reply to Mr. BRIGHT,
Lord STANLEY said he proposed to bring forward the
second reading of the bill on Monday next.
OATHS ADMINISTERED TO JEWS ON ADMIS-
SION TO PARLIAMENT.
• Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved—" That whereasthis house
had, upon two previous occasions, resolved, that any per-
son professing the Jewish religion may henceforth, in taking
the oath prescribed in an act to entitle him to sit and
vote in this house, omit the words, and I make this decla-
ration upon the true faith of a Christian' "—that leave
he given to bring in a bill to provide that the fore-
going resolution may be made a standing order. He con-
' tended that, as matters at present stood, it was mostunsatis-
factory, as the standing order might be rescinded—not
that he thought such would be likely, if the people
-were consulted. When the resolution was placed on the
standing orders, no future Parliament would attempt to
disturb it, and it would remain on their records as a
memento of the religious toleration of the present day, as
well as the intolerance of a former period.
Mr. COX seconded the motion.
Mr. NEWDEGATE moved as an amendment to Mr. T.
lincombe's motion—"Thatno resolution, under the provi-
sions of the act 21 and 22 Vic. c. 49, shall be moved in this
house, unless at least one day's notice of such resolution
shall have been previously given in the votes. That this
be a standing order of the house." He bowed to the
decision of Parliament with reference to the resolution, but
he felt bound to resist the present motion • at the same
time, he considered that they proceeded with that motion
with too much haste. He would take the case of
the hon, member for London (Baron Rothschild) who, at
the time of his election, held the office of Consul-General
of Aristria. They were aware that this house was
very jealous, and carefully guarded against the
admission 'of an undue number of holders of
offic a under their own Government; and was it wise,
thee•efore, to aanction the principle of admitting into Parlia-
meat persons who held offices under a foreim Government.
I t was true that Baron Rothschild °promptly and
I.or,ourably resigned his office when he was admitted
wif.hin the walls of the House of Commons ; but ought
th ey to trust to the honour of an individual in a matte rof
&I le Legislature
se, much importance as the admission of a representative to ,
Mr. MALINS seconded the amendment, and
the beggede
) point out a difficulty that existed
p -oposed by the hon. member for Finsbury. Having course
to the conclusion they had done, he thought all further
discussion on the subject to which the motion referred
chetild cease, as being fruitless, and calculated to
pierce members of the Jewish persuasion who were returned
to .Parliament in a disagreeable position pending such dis_
aiions, and he trusted the hon. member would not press
motion.
Mr. BYNG supported the motion.
Mr. CONING AM asked Government which course it
w, auld be necessary to pursue in dealing with the question
If it was proposed to proceed with the motion.He would
vc ,te for the motion, and he condemned the administration of
al t
U oaths, as being calculated to extend hypocrisy -and
r u
Th CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
was informed it would be • necessary to proceed in the
m. atter by legislation, if the house were desirous to
ca evert the resolution into a standing order. For his own
pa rt he very much regretted that any such proposition as
th at of the hon. member for Finsbury had been in-
tn )duced. He remembered what , took place last
ye ar —he would . not say the compact that had
be en entered intor=but the representations that had been
m ide which indficed certain members who were opposed to
tb a resolution` not ;to offer any further resistance to the
pa ming of the resolution. If they adopted the course
posed by the hon. member for Finsbury, they would
re
wive the discussions that had taken place on previous
'eassiens, and lead,' perhaps, td some differences with the
I)Per House. lio could ,lot vote for the amendment, on
" ( Ramo ground as that on which he optosed the motion.
After some further discussion, in wine - Sir G. GREY and
of her hen. members took part,
re WALE hers
suggested rt'
that the. motion should be '
re ferred to a select committee which was ultimately agreed
tuL o ,and the motion
greeamdentdement were withdrawn, and a
ption to that effect a
THE TIMBER DUTIES.
Mr. MITCHELL moved " that it was the opinion of the
hi use that the duties on_fenore.ign and colonial wood should
be repealed." The hon. g tienaan said that in the present
un certain state of the house he wouldeitt propose the re-
po al of the timber duties this year
nalllBonl
em, to adopt the terms of his present ress
itf.nd that on
th e duty on foreign wood was 555. per l'ogr
the'eles a
co lonia! 20s. • Wood was one of the three great
by
14 noble
change in the duties on which was proposed
lard the member for the City of London in 1841.
rot say that that. Proposal was unsuccessful. In 148 n`
Peel brought in his celebrated budget, in which he pro-
posed that the duties on foreign timber should be reduced

to 30s. in 1842, and to 255, in 1843. The duty on colonial
MPERIAL PARLIAMENT. timber he brought down at once to the merely nominal sum
of ls. a load. On that oecasioh Sir Robert said that if there
was an article 'which a reduction of duty would be a
benefit to the people, it was wood, The impost remained
unaltered till 1845. Sir R. Peel then proposed that the
duties should be reduced to 20s. in 1846, and to 15s. in
1847. In 1850 the navigation laws were repealed, and ships
were admitted free of duty. Of the principle of that measure
he (Mr. Mitchell) cordially approved ; because if they sub-
jected the shipowner to foreign competition, he had a right
to buy his vessels in the cheapest market ; but in repealing
the navigation laws they created the anomaly of admitting
the manufactured article duty free, while they kept a heavy
duty upon the raw material, In 1850 he (the hon. member)
proposed that vessels should be allowed to be built in bond.
The they Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir C. Wood) pointed
out the great difficulties which a system of drawbacks en-
tailed; but he promised to take the whole subject into con-
sideration. Accordingly in 1851 the right hon. baronet pro-
posed and carried a reduction of theduties from 15s. on hewn
and 10s. on sawn timber, to 10s. and 7s. 6d.; at which rates
the impost still remained. It would perhaps be desirable
here to show the effect which these successive reductions had
had upon the trade. Before 1843 the quantity of timber im-
ported was 1,110,000 loads. In that year it amounted to
1,317.645 loads; but in 1857 it reached 2,494,964 loads. It
was quite true that last year it had somewhat fallen off,
being 2,227,256 loads. The timber trade was always the
last to feel a commercial crisis, and it was also the fast to
recover from it ; but he had no doubt that the small falling
off in 1858 would be abundantly made up in the present
year. It would be seen that colonial timber had expe"
rienced a considerable reduction in the amount of protec-
tion afforded to it; but there had nevertheless been no fall-
ing off in the colonial trade. In 1857 the quantity of wood
imported from our colonies exceeded the total quantity of
our imports foreign and colonial, in 1842. (Hear, hear.)
He (the hon. gentleman) objected to the continuance of the
timber duties on four grounds. First, it was the only duty
that existed on a raw material—at least, he knew of none
of any importance. There were three great articles which
entered into all our manufactures—coal, iron, and wood.
Fortunately, we had the two former within our own shores;
but, with the exception of oak, we were obliged to bring all
our timber from abroad. That alone was a great disadvan-
tage to us, because we had to bear all the charges of impor-
tation. In addition to those, however, a further and arti-
ficial charge, amounting to 14 per cent., had been placed
upon all the timber we used. The rudest hovel such as
was erected in a briekfield to shelter the workmen would
pay at least a pound in the shape of timber duty ; and the
tax on a cottage of half-a-dozen rooms would amount to
£3. (Hear, hear.) In the second place, it was a protective
duty. He did not see any reason why we should tax our-
selves 14s. per load for the benefit of Canada • for he be-
lieved that the Canadian Legislature was gradually raising
its duties on English goods, so as to exclude them in favour
of its own manufactures. Silk was the only article besides
timber on which there was still a protective duty, but silk,
it should be remembered, was an article of luxury, In the
third place, the timber duty was most unequal and unjust.
African oak, teak, and mahogany, and in fact all the higher
classes of wood, paid no duty at all. Sir Robert Peel had
removed the tax on those descriptions in order to encourage
the employment of carpenters ; but the result was that while
the rich man's furniture paid nothing, the impost was
levied upon the poor man's deal table. (Hear, hear.) One
result of this arrangement had been to double the import of
mahogany within the last ten years. In the fourth place,
the timber duty operated most unjustly upon the shipping
interest. The price of white oak at Dantzic was 80s. per
load, and the import charges amounted to 225. more. The
cost of fir at Dantzic was 405., and the import charges 20s.
The house would thus perceive how serious was the disad-
vantage under which the English ship-builder laboured
without having any artificial addition made to the cost of
his material. [The hon. gentleman then read a statement
showing the proportion which the timber duties bore to the
cost of a vessel built of foreign wood, that proportion
diminishing as the quality of the vessel improved.] He
asked the house to consider whether it was proper perma-
nently to maintain a duty which admitted the manufac-
tured article duty free, and burdened the raw material with
a duty ranging from 9to ak per bent. ? In no other case
was raw material taxed and the manufactured article exempt.
Wood was second only in importance to coal and iron. The
produce of this duty was about £600,000 per annum ; and
that circumstance had deterred him, from 1851 till now, from
bringing the matter forward. Directly after the war he had
felt that it would be inexpedient to ask for the remission of
this duty; but in 1860 a considerable reduction in our bur-
dens must take place, from the falling in of the terminable
annuities. He, therefore, pressed the house to express its
opinion that it was unjust and inexpedient to continue this
duty.

Mr. FENWICK seconded the resolution. It did not
pledge the house as to the time when the duties should be
repealed, but merely affirmed the general principle that they
were unjust in themselves and injurious in operation. The
house had recognised the impolicy of taxing any raw mate-
rial ; and the principle was carried out in everything—
cotton, wool, or silk—except wood. His constituency was
more interested in shipping than any other. More ships
were now built on the Wear than in all the rest of England
put together. Two years ago the excess was 60 per cent.
beyond the rest of the country. This tax was a positive in-
timber the shipbuilders of that place. The duty on foreign
was from 10 to 25 per cent. at the place of shipment.
Ships built in the Baltic or Canada werermitted to be
brought to this country duty free and sold thus directly
injuring the shipbuilding trade of this country. Suppose
that this happened with cotton or wool : the whole of the
manufacturing districts of Yorkshire and Lancashire would
be up in arms against it, and Mr. Gibson would come down
to the house with a skilfully prepared motion on the sub-
ject. (A laugh.) It was known that Canadian timber was
inferior to that of the Baltic, but in consequence of the duty
being only ls. aload on the former, it was more used here,
especially for building purposes, though it was well known
to bee worse timber. The shipping interest had always
looked on the good old Tories as their natural protectors ;
but if the Government now opposed this resolution they
would lose that character. (Hear. hear.) •
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that when this motion first
appeared in the paper, it had struck the Chancellor of the
Exchequer and himself that it was one making an imme-
diate attack on an important part of the revenue of the
country. But the mover and seconder said that the words
of the motion did not necessarily imply that. He supposed
they were to regard it as a mere abstract resolution, express-
ing the opinion of the house that at some future time, under
circumstances which they did not at present foresee, it
would be a very good thing if the duties on foreign and
colonial timber were repealed. But it was impossible to
treat the resolution of that house as if they were discussions,
in a debating society. (Hear, hear.) Of course, such a
resolution if passed would be considered to have some
effect ; the house and the country would look upon it as a
pledge that, if not immediately, at a very early day,
these duties would be taken off. In considering the finan-
cial arrangements of the year the 'rule they had invariably
acted upon was, first to provide what was necessary to be
granted to her Majesty, and then to go into committee.
of ways and means to consider how that supply should be
raised. The natural course was that they should first see
the estimates which were laid on the table, and then hear
from the recognised authority on such matters the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, what was the condition of the
country, what was the relation of the revenue and expendi-
ture, and what were the most proper taxes for reduction
and remission, if such could be granted. But here, at an
early stage of the session, after only it single vote had' been
taken in committee of supply, before half the estimates were
on the table, before they had the slightest idea of what was
the financial condition of the country, and without refer-
ence to other claims for remission, they were asked to pledge
themselves to this resolution. Last year these duties
amounted to £564,000 ; and it was obvious that so large an
amount could not be spared at a moment's notice. At all
events, it was necessary that the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, when he came to make his financial statement, should
approach the subject with his hands unfettered by any re-
solution of that house. What would be the effect of Passing
such a resolution ? Naturally, all the other interests which
thought they had a claim to the remission of duties; would
get their friends to come down, and make a tolerably good
muster, and say—of course without prejudice to anything
—" Just let us declare that this or the other is a very bad
tax." The result would be that nearly every existing tax
might be condemned by resolution of that house. (Hear.)
Besides that, how would it affect the trade of the country ?
I Consider the effect on the timber trade if to-morrow morn-
ing it went out that that house had adopted a resolution
that those duties ought to be repealed. At present the tins=
ber trade was in a state of considerable agitation, and groat
efforts were being made to raise prices. The effect of teassmg
this resolution would be to increase that agitation, and to a
certain effect it would paralyse those engaged in the trade,
who would not know on what footing they were-to proceed'.
And if the resolution were passed, and no effect were &en
toit, those who had mt.de arrangements believing it AV-Wald be
carried into effect, would have a fairright to eont- ain that the
house had acted so as to inflict on them serious injury. Then
the mover and seconder of the resolution had taken it for
granted that the reduction of those duties would have the
effect of reducing the price of timber. It had been said,
very truly, that since 1842 a large reduction had beeikreadt
in the price of both foreign and colonial timber And that in
consequence a very large increase had taken 'dace in the
quantities imported. In 1842 the duty th foreign timber
was reduced from 365. to 31s, ; and on colonial from 11a, to
a nominal duty of ls. The immediate effect of that was to
produce a considerably increased importation. In IRO the
price of duty-paid timber was somewhere about 83s. ;
in
1844 it had fallen to 565. The next great 'change was in
1851, when Sir Charles Wood fhrther reds eed the fluty on
foreign timber from 158. to 7s. 6d., net reducing the duty
on coloiMT because it was merely nominal, The effect of
that had been perhaps to stinealate, to a certain extent, the
importation of foreign timber; but prices were actually
higher now than they Were before that alttratiOn; and
therefore the whole of the revenue sacrificed had gone, hot
into the pockets of the customers, but those 'of the grottrs
or importers. In 1844 the price of Memel timber th board
was 315,. 'the duty being then Via., making a total of 565. •
but in 1858 the price on beard was much higher,
and the'
Price to the consumer was rather higher. In 1858 the prices
of Memel and Dantaie timber, the best fir, ranged from 655,
to 70s. ; they were now from 755. to 805.., showing an In-
crease of 1.08, The same with regard to Mgt. fir; it had
risene from 655. to 755. The prebabThity was that if they
re mew to tike off the dutsc6A 'foreign timber, the same
consumer would gain vet' little not wholly de d
result would follow; though the revenue would lose, the
deed This country
of Canada 1 • timber,,
but partly on that
naNda.o;watthperesent we took nearly equal quantities of
Pen ent on foreign
price at
whielte was necessarily regulated, not bfr
the
here, but by the pricee merchant could afford to bring it
it here ; because, thouNTIT he could get when he brought
able him to bring it gret aet reduction of duty could en-
sell it at a lower price wheno lower price, he would not
caolhatelould get a higher ; and
as long as the duty
timber remained the
the timber sold in
same, its price must regulate that
of
the emmtry% Though the importati°f all
on
been considerably increasing, that of colont hladti.mbbee.enr had
creasing. From that they might infer that co onial timber
coup al
at owe
could not be brought profitably to this c
price than the present. Therefore, whether° they tookaolff ther
foreign duty or not was immaterial to the colonial producer ;
he would be obliged to demand the same price for his timber
then as now; and if he did so, the foreign producer would
also demand the same price for his timber as he did now.
Therefore, though the foreign producer might gain consi-
derably by the reduction of duty, the consumer would pro-
bably gain nothing. (Hear.) The quantity of foreign timber
imported last year was 1,100,000 tons, and of colonial very
nearly the same, 1,095,000 tons—the consumption of colo-
nial timber having, since 1843, fallen off by 186,000 tons,
and that of foreign having increased 454,000 tons. The case
of the hon. mover broke down at this point—whether the
reduction would really have the effect of benefiting tho con-
sumer; and if so, the whole case he had made fell to the
ground It had also been said that some kinds of timber
were already exempt from duty ; but those were timbers
which were largely used in shipbuilding. The duty was
further condemned because it was a protective duty; but
as three succeeding ministries had maintained these duties
as they existed, it was to be presumed that there was some
reason for doing so beyond the mere object of protection.
The fact was, the difference in freight in favour of Baltic
timber was about 14s the load, while the difference of duty