The Sun.
London, England, 1832-04-11 00:00:00

EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

Lord KINNOUL presented tw•o petitions against the
proposed plan of education in Ireland, from Dumblane and
a parish in Perthshire.—Liid upon the table.

FACTORIES BILL.

Lord RADNOR presented a petition from Carlisle, in
favour of the Factories Regulation Bid.

REFORM.

Lord CAMPERDOWN presented several petitions in
favour of the Reform Bill.

The House then adjourned during pleasure, and resumed
at Half-past Five o'clock—the LORD CHANCELLOR on the
Woolsack.

Lord ALBEMARLE presented a petition in fa% our of
Refot m, from Bicester.

The LORD CHANCELLOR presented the petitions
in favour of Reform he withdrew last night, stating that he
had read them, and found them worded in a manner per-
fectly respectful.

The Marquess of DOWNSHIRE presented a similar
petition from a parish in Downshire.
The Duke of RUTLAND presented several pe-
titions from places in Rutland, Cambridge, and Suf-
folk, against the proposed plan of education for Ireland.
Also a petition from Leicester and its neighbourhood,
signed by several hundred persons, expressing their appre-
hensions for the safety of the Protestant religion in Ireland.
The Noble Duke also presented petitions against the Re-
form Bill from the same place.
Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from the
Corporation of Arundel, praying tie House to alter
the boundary fixed upon by the Commissioners, which
gave too much influence to a certain Peer of the
realm, who had great property in the neighbourhood.
He did not object to close boroughs, but if they were to be
abolished on one side, so ought they on the others. The
petitioners were so confident of the little independence
that would be lett to the borough, with its present
proposed boundary, that unless it were altered they would
prefer being placed in schedule A. He took this oppor-
tunity of giving notice, that he should on Tuesday next,
if the Reform Bill now under discussion were read a
second time, move that the Report of the Com-
missioners with respect to the boundary of Arundel
be referred to a Committee. At present, he could not
understand why Littlehampton should be included in
that boundary when other places of more importance
were much nearer. Was it that the Duke of Norfolk had
property there ?
The Duke of RICHMOND—When the proper time
arrives I think I shall be able to show that the effect of
the boundary, as at present established, will not be to
make Arundel a nomination borough ; but I chiefly rise
to explain to the House the true nature of the
general proposal made by the petitioners of Arundel to be
placed in schedule A, in case the boundary of which they
complain should not be altered. The corporation from
whence this petition emanates consists of several resident
gentlemen ; and as by the Bill the return of the
Member is taken out of their hands and placed in those
of the inhabitants, as they thus lose the exclusive
nomination, they may, perhaps, be indifferent as to whe-
ther the borough is or is not placed in schedule A, and raise
a great outcry against Reform, for, as they say, creating sonic
nomination boroughs, whilst it destroys others. He pledged
himself (continued his Grace, and thought his colleagues would
agree with him, that if the Noble Lord opposite could prove there
was a single nomination borough left, he should be happy to
support that Noble Lord, in making Schedule A consist of
sixty or sixty.three boroughs instead of fifty-six. He
must state, however, that the reason why the
Commissioners kad taken in Littlehampton was, that
it was the port of Arundel, where vessels coming to
it, were obliged to wait for the tide, and the
interests of which were perfectly identical with those of
Arundel. It was true that the Duke or Norfolk had
some houses at Littlehampton, but they were, many
of them, let for long terms of years, and, consequently,
could give that Noble Duke but little influence or import-
ance there. He thought he should be able to show
that the conclusion that the Noble and Learned
Lord had come to was erroneous ; but in case be
failed, and the Noble and Learned Lord should show
that taking in Littlehampton was not proper, and that
Arundel ought to be placed in schedule A, he for one
should be most happy to agree in the Noble and
Learned Lord's motion for placing it there.—(Hear.)
_ .......

Lord WYNFORD said the inference which the Noble
Duke had drawn from his statement was not a very correct
one, for the Noble Duke could not say the Borough of Arun-
del would belong exclusively to the Corporation. It never did
belong to it, and was never governed by the Corporation
of Arundel. The Noble Duke had said, that by adding
this Littlehampton they had travelled four miles
out of their way, and left out twenty parishes which
were all nearer. In Littlehampton there was a
great deal of waste land, and if it were added to
Arundel, that waste land would be let out on
building leases, as was the borough itself, and which leases
could not be parted with for a single hour without the
consent of the patrons. This would make the borough
to all intents and purposes a nomination borough. He
(Lord Wynford) wanted to know why the 20 parishes had
been passed by ?

The Duk; of RICHMOND would certainly not follow
the Noble and Learned Lord through the irregular conver-
sation which he had entered into.—(Hear, bear, hear.)
Suppose he was right in what he had stated, would the
Noble and Learned Lord move that Arundel should be
placed in schedule A?

Lord WYNFORD would not move that it should be
placed in schedule A, but be would adopt the only fair
course he could think of, namely, move to throw a circle
round, and include the whole of the population within that
circle.

Lord FALMOUTH could not but be surprised at
the change of the Noble Duke's principles op-
posite. He, however, remembered at the time
when a Noble Lord behind him made a declaration iu favour
of Reform, the Noble Duke, at the time at which he was his
quondam political friend, rose and repudiated all idea of
his being included in that declaration in favour of Reform.
In a short time afterwards came the Catholic Bill.
He (Lord F.) invited their Lordships to look at the
recorded sentiments—(Cries of " Protest ")—recorded
sentiments and protest of the Noble Duke delivered at the
time; then to draw a comparison between the able speech
he made on that occasion, and the speeches which
had fallen from him lately. Though he (Lord Falmouth)
had been silent for a considerable time, seeing the zeal
of the Noble Duke opposite, he could no longer with-
stand bringing the recollection of their Lordships
hack to the change which bad taken place in the
Noble Doke's mind since the year 1829, and leaving him
to explain it.
The Duke of RICHMOND thought the Noble Lord
,iad better afford him the opportunity of answering this
ittack, when he came to speak in the course of the de-
bate, otherwise be would be afraid of irregularly intrud-
ing on the time of the House at present (Cries of Go on.)
Ile then understood that he was at liberty to explain that
r was one of the most unprovoked and certainly one of
the niost unjustifiable attacks that bad ever been made on
Peer in that House.--(Loud cheery.) if he

c i altered his opinion on the subject of Re_
he should not now have been ashamed
ref it.—(Repeated cheers.-) If ever he had been an Anti-Reform-
er he should now have said the times were much changed. Were
f.e to look at the speeches of noble Lords on the other side,
anti-reformers as they were, and anti-reformers as they might
now be desirous of being, there was hardly an
individual in that House this day who did not
hink an extensive measure of Reform was ab
,dutely necessary. What was the course adopted on
the occasion on which he made the speech referred to ?
That very Noble Lord who had made this attack
upon him had made a speech respecting the Right
Reverend Bench, as he (the Noble Duke) recollec-
ted, the very evening before being removed from
!hat House. —(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord said that
if contrary to the opinion of the majority of the
people of this country, contrary to the opinions which
crowded that table, the House of Commons did grant Ca•
audio Emancipation, he for one would support any
system of Reform which any individual might introduce.
He stated that he would not vote for Reform merely because
the House of Commons had carried the Catholic question.
That was what he had stated. He had not at that moment
got the papers with him, as he had not had the
slightest suspicion that he should be called upon—
(Loud cries of Hear from the Opposition) to receive on his
legs the cheers at the other side the House. It appeared that
in she debate of last night they had been too calm, and nosy
there was an attempt by personal attack to raise
that feeling in the House which would prevent the
calm consideration of the question.—(Hear, hear.) With
respect to the speech which he had made on occasion of
the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders of
Ireland, it appeared to the Noble Lord (Fahnouth)
that he was now chargeable with inconsistency. But
if he (the Duke of Richmond) was inconsistent, what
became of the Noble Lords who voted the other way?
What became of the Noble Lords who disfranchised the
forty shilling freeholders ? That forsooth was no attack on
vested rights ! No ; but to touch St. M iwes, or Gatton,
or Old Sarum, that were indeed a robbery, revolution,
spoliation, and all the rest of it.—(Cheers.)
Lord FA LMOUTH had not charged the Noble Duke
with inconsistency.

The Duke of RICHMOND was then at a loss to
conceive on what ground he had been called on to vin-
dicate himself, if not from the charges of incon-
sistency.—(Hear and cheers.) What had he in reality
said on the occasio❑ alluded to? that if you disfranchised
the:4os. freeholders in Ireland, you were:disfranchising free-
holders in fee, and not fictitious freeholders. The House
could ❑ot stop short of a general Reform.—(Hear.)
He challenged any one to prove that he had ever spoken against
Parliamentary Reform; on the contrary, from the first moment
he had entered Pat liatnent, he had wondered how it was
possible for any one to get up seriously to defend the nomi-
nation and rotten boroughs.

Lord FALMOUTH wished merely to say, that
in reference to the disfranchisement of the flirty shilling
freeholders, he had not given any opinion, nor had he
voted in favour of the ft-leisure.

The Marquis of SALISBURY said, that if unfortunately
the Reform Bill should pass the second reading, it was his
decided intention to bring the question of disfranchisement
before the House in all its bearings. When he saw the
Noble Duke with whom lie had the honour of voting on the
question of the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling
freeholders, standing up as the prime champion of
that Bi,l, which, in his opinion, contained the
grossest robbery and spoliation that ever were
proposed in either House of Parliament, he felt
bound to point out the very marked difference between what
had then occurred, and the case which at present existed.
He asked the Noble Lord or any Noble Lord in that House,
whether the Catholic Relief Bill had not depended on the
disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders, and whether it was
nut asserted to be a full compensation for that disfranchise-
ment. There was no complaint by themselves that the Irish
40a.freeholders ha,l been disfranchised, as they had accepted
the Relief Bill as a compensation. He would make no at-
tack on the Noble Duke; indeed he quite agreed with him,
that if he could see that a Reform such as that now
proposed could be beneficial to the country, if founded in
justice, it ought to be granted. But he believed that no ex.
pediency could justify a gross act of spoliation and robbery.
But if he recollected right, the protest signed by the Noble
Duke on the occasion alluded to, carried the question
of vested rights to such an extent, that although he (Lord
Salisbury) had come down to the House determined
to concur in it, he felt he could not go so
far. There was one question, however, which
he should like to hear answered,—on what principle
the Noble Duke considered an Irish forty-shilling free-
holder, a more respectable man than one who was a mem-
ber of the Corporation of the Borough of Arundel.—.
(Hear, hear.) He had a right to believe that the Noble
Duke was sincere in his support of the present
measure, or with all the charms of office, he did not
think lie would retain his seat on that Bench. But when
the question was fully gone into, he should show that rot-
ten boroughs had been of more benefit to the Constitution
than the Noble Duke was willing to admit. The Noble
Duke was. he believed, the only one on that bench who
had nut, at one time or other, stated his admiration of rot-
ten boroughs.
The Marquess of CLEVELAND said, it was great
presumption in him to take part in a debate upon a question of
such deep importance; but having heard so much respecting
nomination boroughs, he was hound to state to the House
and to the country that there were few individuals—if,
indeed, there was one—in that House, who had more
interest in supporting boroughs of that description
than the humble individual who was now addressing them.
—(Cheers.) He must begin by stating in a few words that
he had been always a strenuous and steadfast supporter of
Reform in Parliament. Now it might appear not a
little singular that while he advocated Reform, he
was proprietor of considerable Parliamentary influence.
He awed this, however, upon principle, as he wished to
state to the House, and to the country at large, that while
his sole object had been, since he had the power of sit-
ting in Parliament, which he was sorry to say was
so long ago as 1792, to be the steady supporter of Reform,
Le was, at the same time, most anxious to possess
Parliamentary influence.—(Cheers from the Opposi-
tion, which were echoed by the Ministerial side.)
He had from that period, although young in age and in
political life, seen that those who were in the same situ-
ation in life as himself, and possessing, as he be-
lieved, the same means of possessing parliamentary
influence as himself, endeavoured to increase that in-
fluence. He had certainly endeavoured so to do,
from a conviction in his own mind that he was
right in so doing. He stated now, and he felt proud in
having the opportunity of stating it, that those who were
in the same situation as himself, endeavoured by all the means
in their power to support men and measures which
he conceived most detrimental to the interests of the coun-
try. From the year 1792 he could nearly date the misfor-
tunes of this country. That was his most decided opinion,
and whether right or wrong he persisted in his opinion
that that period was the origin of the present dis-
tress.—(Hear, hear, hear.) At that time be
wished to obtain that Parliamentary influence in
l which lie had since succeeded, but be most respectfully,
yet firmly differed from the opinion of Noble Lords op-
posite, that the present Bill was a spoliation of property,
;cheers;. He conceived that property of that description
was generally obtained for two objects ; either from a desire
to obtain Parliamentary influence, or fr,rn a desire,
the idea of which he was sure none of their Lordships
would entertain, to secure some pecuniary advantage by
the sale of seats in the House of Commons. As to one
of those objects, he was sure it was so indefen-
sible that he need not waste their Lordships' time
by condemning it. As to the other—that of ob-
taining Parliamentary influence, if it were a crime,
he for one must plead guilty to it. He did it for the
sake of Parliamentary influence, and for the pur-
pose of counteracting those measures and the men
who brought forward those measures which he con-
tinually had, without exception, opposed. That being the
cause of his wishing for Parliamentary influence, whether lie
'ucceeded or not, he would not stop to detail, but it was
d me for the sake of supporting liberal principles. A Noble
Baron apposite, who spoke yesterday evening, asserted
that all the Whigs had come over to support a Right Hon.
Gentleman whose loss none more deeply deplored than
itimse:f—he meant Mr. Canning—that all the Whigs c ime
aver to support that Right Hon. Gentleman, except a very
tew. He was one who gave Mr. Conning his support,
nad he neither regretted having done so, nor was lie ashamed
-o state it. He did so upon principle, because he
thought that when Mr. Canning came into power it opened to us
.he dawn of liberal principles in this country. He then supported
'lr. Carmine, without any previous knowledge of him.
After the death of that illustrious individual, he felt

mewl to tender his support to the Noble Disk.
ooacaei,e (Wellington,) h cause lie thought that
that Nile individual had conferred great benefits oi
the country, in regard to many of those particular points.
which Mr, Canning had himself edvoc ,te(l.—( Hear. )
He felt convinced from the Noble Duke's elevation,
:ind from the knowledge which he had of him, that he
would candidly allow that upon the question of Parliamentar3.
Refrm, he had told tl e Noble Duke at a conference is
had with him, that he could not agree with him
in the view which lie took upon the subject.
The Noble Duke candidly and openly stated to
him the reason why he opposel that measure. Ever
since he had entered that House, which was in 1792, he had
supported Reform, and should do so to the latest
period
of his life.—( Hear, hear.) His age was now
very great, but the longer he lived, the more
he was convinced of the necessity for Reform,
and when his Noble Friend at the head of
his Majesty's Government declared to Parliament the
grounds on which he had taken the Adminis-
tration, and on which his Majesty had appointed
him Prime Minieter, he could not but congratulate
him on that declaration. He trusted that the pre-
sent Bill of Reform which had been brought before
Parliament, and laid on tsar table of their Lordships' House,
would not be withdrawn from that table until it had re-
ceived the entire and unqUalified assent of his Majesty.
He thanked his noble friend (Earl Grey,) and the
rest of his Majesty's Ministers, for bringing this mea-
sure , forward, as he considered it the only
means of securing the safety, the prosperity, and the
advantage of the country. Clamour would never have its
weight with him, but popular opinion always would.—
(Hear, hear.) He was convinced, whatever might be
said to the contrary by Noble Lords on the other Bids
of the House, that no re-action whatever had taken pace
on this subject, except indeed a re-action had taken
place in the minds of some of their Lordships on the
other side of the House, which he hoped and trusted
was the case, and for which lie should congratulate their
Lordships and the country, as he thought it the most de-
sirable circumstance that could happen for the good of the
community. —( (sheers. )
Lord Howard, of Effingham, the Marquess of London-
derry and the Earl of Winchilsea rose together ; the cries
for Lord Howard resounded from all parts of the House,
and the two latter Noblemen gave way.
Lord HOWARD considered the opinion of the Noble
Eat I opposite (Falmouth), if he re illy meant to say as he
understood him, that it was improper and extraordinary
in Noble Lords, who years previously had stated they were
against Reform, now to get up and advocate it, founded
on erroneous principles. The circumstances of the
country had so changed within the last few years, as per-
fectly to justify, nay imperatively call upon Noble
Lords to pursue a different course.—(Cheers.) As
long as nemination boroughs were acceded to
by the country, so long they would hold
their ground ; but the moment the public voice was
raised up against them, they (aught unquestionably to be
dune away with.—(Hear.) The property in those bo.
roughs was neither legal nor legitimate. With
re,pect to the case of the borough of Arundel,
which had given rise to the present discussion, he must
beg to say that Arundel never was a close borough.
He considered it a very strong and prominent
duty on the part of Noble Lords to change their opinions
if they were against a question of such vital importance
as this, especially at a time when public opinion was ex-
pressed in such strong terms in favour of the present mea-
sure of Reform by almost every member of the respectable
classes of society hi the country. He thought that such
an expression of opinion lay the country was a fair and
legitimate ground for any Noble Peer to change his opi-
nions, however strong, at any period they might have been.
Lord FALMOUTH explained : he did not apply his
observations to any particular individual.
Lord HOWARD explained. •
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY had listened with
respect to what had fallen from the Noble Marquess
on the other side of the House, and especially to the latter
part of his speech, which was in explanation of his politi-
cal power, how he acquired it, and how h' had chosen to
execute it. It was extraordinary that the Noble Marquess,
who was not in any way attacked, should think it neces-
sary to come forward to show that every administration
had been equally supported by him. If there was a point
which could induce him (the Marquess of Londonderry)
to say that the borough interest ought to be token out
of the hands of those who possessed it, it would be when
he saw such a support of Ministerial cases.—(Laughter.)
The Noble Marquess had said that Reform was the only
question on which the different administrations had dif-
fered, but he denied this, far they had differed on eveay
point. The Noble Marquess was always on the side
of the Noble Duke who was now on the Opposi-
tion benches, and now the Noble Marquess was a strong
supporter of the present Government. The Noble Mar-
quess had on former occasions come to the House
with petitions which afforded him the opportunity
of stating his great disinterestedn-ss in sacrificing
his boroughs on the altar of his country —(Hear, hear.)
He was the last person to suppose that the Noble Mar-
quess had not patriotic notions. I he (the Marquess of Lon-
donderry) were possessed of boroughs, which unfortunately
he never was, and if lie wished to make the most of them,
when the Reform question came before the House, he would
tell the Noble Marquess fairly he would indepedently support
the Noble Earl, for, if the Bill should unfortunately pass,
the Noble Earl who dispensed the favours of the
Crown might have the power of making Viscounts
and Earls. If this most unhappy Bill should pass, he had
good reason to believe, that all those Noble persons who
had sacrificed boroughs on the altar of their country would
meet their reward ; but if the House should reject the
Bill, what then would happen? The Noble Marquess
would still possess his boroughs, and he did not despair
of seeing the Noble Marquess on the same side of the
House.—(Laughter.) He had been told that by the Bill
his political interest should be considerably increased,
but he hoped that he never would be influenced by such
motives. He had acted entirely throughout his life on
fair and not on selfish principles. But if he looked for-
ward at the arrangements in the county of Durham, al-
though the Noble Marquess's boroughs might go, he would
still find many things to his advantage. That county
presented one of the most gross jobs he had ever heard ot.
(Hear.) When the Bill came before the House he should
meet th a question, and show that the arrangements in Dur-
ham formed one of the most gross jobs to he found in this
most gross Whig Bill,
The Marquess of CLEVELAND said, that in conse-
quence of the very personal attack made on him, he must
claim the privilege of saying a few words, though he was
aware that so important a question as the Reform Bill was
grants,in his
on the Orders of the Day. He was, however, bound to
stand
forward
allowances,
own deofer
honours
u Withrstobe
conferred
upon t o any
favours,
him, he could disclaim before their Lordships and the coun-
try that he had any idea of receiving arty such advantage.
—(Hear, hear.) He would assert he was as independent
as the Noble Marquess, or as any Nobleman whatever
in that House. With reference to the question of Parlia-
mentary Reform, he had acted with perfect independence
of either Government. Frern 1792 to 1827 he had acted
in constant opposition to the Government of the country.
He never asked for any place, nor ever had occasion to
have a memorandum made of him, in which it was
"id of what he asked, that " it was too bad."---
He had the honour of being promoted to the rank he now
held by his late Majesty, without any solicitation on
his part; and he now sat behind his present Noble
Friends., supporting them in their measures, because
he thought they were the men who were able to bring
us out of our present difficulties, and he was certain they
would do that which was best for the community at large.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY explained,
The Duke of WELLINGTON bore testimony to the inde.
pendent manner in which the noble Marquess opposite
Cleveland) had always supported him.

~ ..
Earl GREY said he was not present when this
conversation commenced ; but understood that it
had originated in a petition respecting the boun-
daries of Arundel. It was with regret that
he had listened for the last three quarters of an hour,
not to a discussion bearing the most remotely upon
that subject, but to a personal debate with respect to the
motives and conduct of different Peers who had taken
part in discussing the question of Reform.—(Hear, hear.)
He wished the House to consider whether this was a time
to introduce a public discussion of that nature. They were
now about to enter upon a great question of consti-
tutional
probable, that the decision of their Lordships might not
policy, on which it was possible, but he trusted not
lie in accordance with the general wisließ of the people.
It could not be their wish, and he was certain it
wda not their interest, that that decision should be lia-

la to the imputation of being affected by any
L•r•sonal inotivei. But what had they been hearing
)iit accusation and recriirination from one bide to another.
es if no person comid vote upon this subject except
I.on personal motives ?—( The Marquiss of Londonderry
poi L ,rd Falmouth '' No, no.") The Noble Earl said
;to; but what could be the object of his personal attack upon
his (Lord Grey's) Noble Friend ; but to show that his conduct
was inconsistent, and upon that to rest an imputation that it
was governed by improper motives ?
Lord FALMOUTH here rose amidst loud cries of
'• Order, order," and exclaimed, " No, no,' with great
vehemence.

Earl GREY said, that he was in possession of the
idouse ; but if the Noble Earl wished, he was able
to explain, although he had twice spoken. He had no doubt
the House would allow him to do so ; but he asked
again what could have been the object of such an
attack which had no relation to the subject before the
House ? Such a discussion was ruinous to the character of
of the House, as it betokened a temper and feeling ineon•
sistent with that calm and temperate consideration
which it was their duty to apply to this subject. He
%you'd only express his regret that such an attack should
have been made upon his Noble Friend, who, of all men,
was, from the independence of his character, the least open
to it. No one who knew him would, he was sure, have
their confidence in him shaken by what had taken place.

Lord FALMOUTH, after great difficulty was permitted
to explain. The Noble Earl had completely mistaken
him. He (Lord Falmouth) had not attributed motives
to the Noble Duke, for whom he entertained every
possible respect. He would be ashamed of himself to
attribute motives to that Noble Duke. He desired not to
recriminate, for that would not be within the bounds
of explanation ; but if he were to do so, he would say that
no Noble Lord had received more indulgence from that House
in the course of several debates (probably from a com-
pliment to his high talent) than the Noble Earl who
had thought proper to accuse him (Laid Fahnouth) of
being i! regular. The petition was then ordered to lie on
the table,

Lord LANSDOWNE said he had to lay before their
Lordr,hips an Order in Council pursuant to Act of Paria-
ment.

REFORM BILL.

The Order of the Dry having been moved for the second
reading of the Reform Bill,
Lord SHREWSBURY said, he was unwilling to allow
the most important question that ever came before that House,
to pass without a few observations from him, and few they
certainly should be. Whether the Bill now before the
House was perfect in all its details, he would not pretend
at present to say ; but he was wiling, in this respect, to
trust to the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's
Government. The Noble Earl was the most competent and
the most consistent Statesman.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Whether it would produce all the good that could be de-
sired, he would not venture to assert ; but that it
would produce benefit, no one could doubt. It was also
with feelings of considerable satisfaction that on a
former occasion a Noble Duke opposite had said he was
now willing, in some degree at least, to yield to a system
of Reform, and it was certainly something to acknow-
ledge that the day was come when it was expedient
to yield to Reform. With respect to the noble and gallant
Duke opposite, whose opinions were always to be entitled to
attention, undoubtedly he ought to be the last man who
ought -to assert that it was either dishonourable or un-
becoming to yield to agitation. If the Noble and Gallant
Duke did well (and well he did) to yield to
agitation in 1829, he would do well on the'present oc-
casion, as would every man, in yielding to that which
ought long since to have been conceded. Was it policy in
any Government to wait till justice triumphed through
the channels of the people ?—( Hear, bear.) This was at
best a dangerous expedient, and it was for this reason
he desired to see the system altered, that henceforth the
grievances of the country might be removed by
a real representation of the people. It appeared to
him that our Constitution had never yet been but a
beautiful theory, subject to continual contradiction in prac-
tice. He could not see that it had ever yet
saved us from any of those evils incident to other
states, or other forms of Government. We bad
been perpetually engaged in the most wasteful
and unjust wars, which had at last plunged us into a debt
amounting to 100,000,000 of money. We had had tyranny,
anarchy, civil war, rebellion, and revolution—(Hear,
hear)—we had had at times commercial embar-
rassments to a degree unknown in other countries...
we had had a poor unemployed population—a population
literally starving in the midst of our city.—(Hear,
hear.) As to crimes, of late years they had been
multiplied to an enormous extent. We had seen at times
the most profligate corruption running through the Go-
vernment of the country, and this applied at all times to
Government supporting themselves upon patronage—
( Hear, hear, hear)—keeping the whole army of
occupation in both Houses of Parliament, and without
which they could not have existed for a moment.—
Their Lordships bad seen this system persevered in, till
the people driven to desperation by the evils produced, had
cried out with one accord, and determined to emancipate
themselves from their thraldom.—(Cheers.) The Con-
stitution of this country was worthy of the praises
bestowed upon it, if it had fair play. This Bill was
calculated to give it fair play, and to allow it to develope all
its powers, affording freedom, liberty, independence and
authority, instead of that deadly oligarchy which it ap-
peared to him, (Lord Shrewsbury,) had ruled these countries
fur so many years,—an oligarchy which had usurped in every
order of the state all the independence and liberty ef the realm.
My Lords, continued the Noble Lord, such a system car-
ries the seeds of dissolution within itself. Your ex-
travagance, your disregard to the interests of the
country, your absolute tyranny over the people of
Ireland, the bitter fruits of which you are now reaping
(Hear, hear, bear,) are all exposed in their true
light, and, in my opinion, we stand, as a culprit,
before the people. Judgment is pronounced on us, and
our only hope of pardon is to sue for it in this act of
justice. Pass this Bill, and all your former power is
restored to you, the power which you have too long pus-
sessessed, to do mischief, to which the miserable condition
of this country bears witness. Show your readiness to co-
perate honourably and effectually with the Government and
the people in the regeneration of the empire. But, my Lords,
if we are to continue to legislate for ourselves, seeking our
own separate interests and setting those of the country at de-
fiance, the sooner we cease that legislation the better.
We must found our power and privileges on the good we
do, and not on any extravagant ideas of the sacred and
imperishable nature of our prerogative. We must right
the people, or the people will right themselves, and the
irritating contest in which we are now engaged, will find
its issue in some general and dreadful convulsion. My
Lords, after the speech addressed to you last night,
by a Rev. Prelate in opposition to this Bill, I would ad-
dress one word to that portion of the House of which the
Right Rev. Prelate forms a part. My Lords, if the
clergy know any thing of their own interests—and it is
generally supposed that they do—(Hear, and a laugh).—
am sure they ought to be the first to come forward
and do their duty to the country, by supporting on this
occasion the Reform Bill. Hitherto, my. Lords, they have
been too often allied to the worst enemies of the country.
Too often they have lent themselves as willing agents to
every system of tyranny and persecution, of extra-
vagance and spoliation.—(Cries of " No, no," from the
Opposition.) I say, my Lords, of extravagance and
spoliation with which this country has ever been
afflicted--(Loud cries of " No, no," from the same
quarter.), But the time has now arrived—the opportunity
has now come on, when it will be seen whether
they be capable of appreciating the spirit of the times,
and of endeavouring, as fir as in them lies,
to remedy those evils which they had but too large a
share in producing. My Lords, I would also take the
liberty of addressing myself to those Noble Lords who
intend to vote for the second reading of this Bill,
with a view of bringing it into a snare, in which
they will be able the more readily to despatch
it. It does appear to me it would be much better
that they should oppose it in iimine ; that they
should manfully stand to their own opinions ; that they
should fight it in front, and desist from that desultory
warfare which they are now about to wage against it. But
I do believe, my Lords, that they will brine it into
a snare from which Government will not easily be able to
extricate it. The Minister, my Lords, be he who he may,
must, under existing circumstances, and under all circum-
stances, command a majority in t"is House, or he
has no alternative but to resign. Under the present
circumstances, however, of the country, I cannot
contemplate that alternative without dismay. For the
I,ignation of the Nohfe E irl at the head of his
iajesty's government will not only be the death-blow t,o
11 the well-earned fame of his long political life,

The Earl of MANSFIELD and the Larl of LIMERICK
roso together. The former gave way,
The Earl of LIMERICK then addressed the House;
hut in consequence of the low tone in which his Lordship
spoke, it was impossible to catch the whole of a single
sentence. We however understood him to say that it had
le en his intention not to have offered one word to their Lord-
Ships in the present stage of the Bill, but the extraordinary
8 atemente which had been made by the Noble Earl, im-
peratively called upon him to do so. The Noble Earl had
stated that he Wan a friend to Catholic Emancipation ;
hit little did he expect, at the present early hour, after a
fmv short months only had. elapsed since the passing of
that great measure, that the first Peer in the realm of the
Cithelic persuasion, should have madc the extraordinary
statements which he had done, awl have made that
attack upon the Church which he br,a considered
necessary. He (the Earl of Limerick) would venture to say,
that not a single declaration to which the Noble Earl
hof adverted had been falsified. The two Churchee
of England and of Ireland were knit together, and one
could not tall without the other. 'When such doctrines as
had been advanced by the Noble Earl were broaght for_
ward, it was impossible to discuss them without meet
warmth. The Noble Earl bad said that by the present
Bill, end by Reform in the English House of Commons,
which be made sure of having, there would be an in-
fusion of new Members, that all private -obkets and
feelings would then be taken away, and th4t nothing
would be -done hut what tended to the public good. But
what, be would ask, would be the end of all thin ? Why,
a repeal of the Union. And what was meant by that?
The separation of England from Ireland. (The rest of
the Noble Earl's speech it was utterly impossible for us to
catch, and indeed he was generally inaudible thronghout.)

The Earl of MANSFIELD bad been unwilling to
trouble their Lordships upon the preser.t occasion, snore
especially as the difficulty of finding f esh topics and freSh
arguments had been much increased I y the very luminous
speech which had been given last night by a Noble Fiend
of his. The first question he would ask was, did this Bill
contain any alteration of that principle, to which, in the
former, he had been opposed ? His answer being in flat
negative, his line of conduct was perfectly elcitr
before him ; but as some Noble Lords who opposed the
former measure had expressed their intention to allow
this Bill to go into Committee, he thought it was his duty
to examine the question again, the result was, that he
was confirmed, and fully confirmed so every opinion
which he then entertained.—( Cheers from the Opposition. )
ale could assure their Lordships, that if he had been con-
vinced upon inquiry that lie was in error, he would most
frankly avow it, for he declared that he never would be led
away from the expression of his honest opinion by the
fear of having been inconsistest. If, however, such a
change had not been the result of a deliberate
conviction—if after declaring his intention to defend the
constitution against such a tax as wits now to be made, he
had yielded to the threats of dangers, the existence of which
he did not admit, or to the snore specious arguments re-
specting the hope of resistance, h? would not have pre-
sumed to address the House. He had examined hie opinions,
with a view of correcting the errors which he might have.
committed, for be had been most astonished at the assertions*
of a Noble Earl, that the provisions of the present Bill had
removed his objections to the principle of the Bill.
He had been certainly the more astonished at
that Noble Lord's assertion, because he (Lord Mansfield)
had assisted that Noble Lord in the examination of
the Bill; but it seemed that he, as well as many
others, had been mistaken as to the nature of that
Noble Lord's objections, whose ,arguments, upon
the present occasion, doubtless must have had more
effect upon the minds of the public than upon
his own. But whether the provi.ions of the Bill
had removed that Noble Lord's former objections or
not, he was the sole judge. He (Lord M assfield)
could only say that his objections had not been removed.
—(Hear, Lear.) He, for one, could give but very little
credit to the assertion of those Noble Lords who
wished the Bill to pass as a matter of expediency. He
understood one Noble Lord to have said, that although
the details of the Bill were very objectionable,
the principle was one on which all Bills of Reform must
be founded ; if that be the case, he must of course be sup-
posed to object to all principles of R-form. It was said,
only let the Bill go into Committee, and that would be one
point gained; but he begged to remind the House that
it was a fact that the ancient Constitution of Par-
liament must be annihilated long before the Committee
could agree upon a sufficient substitute for it.—(Cheers.)
Noble Lord assumed that the principle of the Bill was
approved unanimously by the people. He maintained
there was not that unanimity. It was his opinion there
was no necessity for a Reform, arising from any de ect in
the representation ; nor did he think the effect of reject..
iiig the Bill would be to deprive the p-nple of their hopes.
It they thought the people were persuaded their bap meat
would be increased by a chance in the representation,
and that this was an unjustifiable opinion, might not the
House express their doubt of the justice of the necessity
of yielding to public opinion ? Every charge should be ac-
companied with re isonable hopes of a real, not speculative
advantage, or why were they constitued a legislative power's
It was one thing to admit the possibtlity of improvement, and
another to admit the existence of an evil to which
an immediate remedy was necessary. If he could say the
country would increase in prosperity, as since 1792, he
should be looking forward to a speculative contingency in-
stead of depending on experience. It was the duty of their
Lordships to take all opinions into consideration, and to
adopt them, if nut objectionable ; but no Reform
could be desirable, if founded on injustice.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) If the people could be persuaded
there was not a great existing evil, they might be induced
to believe that del :y was preferable to precipitate legisla-
tion. This was the Bill presented to Parliament. Was it bet,
tar or worse than the preceding? Ministers acknowledged
that the second was better than the first, and that improve.
inent was owing to the interposition of their Lordships,
It the present Bill were to he rejected, one less objetionable
might be introduced. The House, in 1830, had negatived
a motion of Reform, at well as a resolution that Reform
was expedient. Was it to be supposed that the House
had declared that to be necessary, which was inexpedient?
If the necessity of Reform now existed, it must have
arisen since 1830. It was the revolution of France that
had operated on the great mass of the electors, and
brought the country into the predicament in which it
now stood. Ministers had chosen a most unfortunate
time of excitement to bring forward their measure. Merl
in office often gave promises, to whier a greater
extension was given than they intended, and the Noble Earl
had listened to those who had much wilder plane of inno-
vation than he imagined. The Bill had been described as
tantamount to a revolution in Scotland, and in Ireland to a
destruction of all the safeguards of Protestant ascendancy.
The great mars of the property of the country was op-
posed to this Bill, and to those provisions which had he. n
recommended to the House by those who had a numerical
superiority. Ministers said that Reform was nects,ary
from the state of the public mind, which was only saving
that they had brought the public mind into that predicament
from which it could not be extricated but by passing the
measure. He would consult the wishes of the people, but
not their opinions. Would their Lordships deviate from
prudent policy, or from the course of justice, in order
to meet the clamours of the people ? He believed
the Bill to be incurably vicious, and it was poptk.
lir from such fallacies that the people would be
relieved from taxes. The House of Commons would be
more democratic, the representatives lees dependent on the
electns, and the Ministers more dependent on the control of
Parliament, that the church would be paid like the
army, and the army be paid as little as possible; and
finally, that the Sovereign would be reduced to the situa-
tion of the President of the United States. He believed that
the House of Commons was sufficiently democratic
and powerful, and he appealed to all who heard
him, whether any Ministers were is independent
of Parliament as the reformers assserted.—(Hear.)
As it was admitted on all hands that there was a general
wish for a moderate Reform, it became his duty, as well as
that of other Noble Lords, to look at the opinions of forme
eminent statesmen upon that subject. Then, what said
Lordi
igwhthenbe observed °P d
that,
chile on the opposition side of the Home, the opirrone
thoughtChaam ?
that He
it said, m
of Noble Lords upon the subject of Reform were very
d &rent to those which they entertained while upon the
her side;—Lord Chatham bad said and maintained
hat there was, and ought to be, a great difference between
he practice and the tbory of the COUsti3lttina.
:esrivt ie" —and
he