The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-05 00:00:00

TEE.

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 5, 1835.

land
well as Well -as in Ireland. He was induced to think that the
Government was not aware of the extent to which those
associations extended. He thought it impossible that the
Gominander.in-Chief could have noticed such dangerous
eombinations, without having taken steps for putting a stop to
them, He had endeavoured to ascertain how far such associ-
ations were inconsistent with civil and military law, and for
that purpose he had called for a return, from which he found
that any officer being a member of a lodge was liable to dis-
rimsal, ], so that it was evident that they were looked upon asil-
legal. But it was unnecessary for him to show that those as-
sociations were in their nature illegal. He would admit that
they might be innocent in quiet times, but in disturbed times
end among armed bodies, who might be made the tools of de-
signing persons, he considered them peculiarly dangerous ;
besides which, the military order to which he had alluded
showed them to be against military law. Then, as to their
illegality under the civil law, he found that by the 9th clause
of the 30th of George the Third, every Society having
branches or corresponding Societies, or having branch coma
certain raittees is illegal ; and every member of such society is liable
to
penalties. Thus it appeared that the unfortunate
Dorchester labourers were not one-tenth so guilty as some
gentlemen of high pretensions whom he could name—and
tome of whom were, perhaps, nearly allied to the Crown.—
(Bear, hear.) Yet these dlinuents escaped,e while the
unfortunate Dorchester labouree q rs languished in flexile. Was
not this drawing a distinction between the rich and influ-
ential and the poor and ignorant ? Why should not a
prince of the blood or a peer of the realm have the same
measure of justice meted out to him as the ignorant, who
had not the opportunity of being acquainted with the laws.
(Hear, hear.) In 1831, a proclamation was issued by his
Majesty's Government cautioning persons against joining in
Majesty's
associations. This was intended to put down the Trades'
Unions. When this proclamation was issued, the Hon. Mem-
ber for Stafford and the Hon. Member for Warwick severally
lore
in their places and asked the Noble Lord, then Chancel-
of the Exchequer, whether it was not the intention of the
Government to put down those Trades' Unions? He (Mr.
liUme) had said et the time that the Government had no right
to put down those societies, as they were not illegal—they
had no oaths of secrecy, or signs or passes to render them so,
and, therefore, it was probable that the proclamation was is-
2oed rather as a warning to the too zealous members of those
bodies not to be guilty of a breach of the law, than for any
other purpose. When he recollected the opinions then ex-
gassed on the opposite side of the House, he could not help
Pressingei his earnest hope that he should have the assistance
'those Hon. Gentlemen who had then expressed themselves
80 strongly in favour of putting down the Orange Association
ss:'(Hear, hear)—the constitution of which, he had no hesita-
Pin in saying, was contrary to law.—( Hear, hear.) The
first resolntion he intended to propose, was— _
" That it appears, from the evidence laid before this House, that
rere exists at present in Ireland more than fifteen hundredf Orange
Lse(dlrles, some parishes containing as. many as three or unit-6
tori26ot
,evees, consisting of members varying in number.
in communication and correspondence with. each other, and
h....°1_,0g secret signs and pass-words as bonds of union, and all de-
i-ti,Tag on the-Grand Lodge of Ireland."
iss'r• Swan stated that there were 1,590 Orange lodges, and
4. Blacker said that there were about 1,600. The latter
ygentleman said that the number of warrants at present on the
aks Was 1,843, but that many of the lodges were now dor-
-n so that the present number was about 1,600. The
greatest number of lodges in any county was 229. In the
'A.°,tioty of Down, there were 200 lodges ; in Antritn, 229 ; in
artnagh, 212; and also upwards of 200 in Tyrone, and about
""e same numer in Ferniaagh ; and in Londonderry there
were 150. Inb some of then southern counties there were no
grange lodges, and in others only a few, The population of
!rtnagh was 300,000, and in the 212 lodges in it there were
ear 21,000 Orangemen. No one was admitted as an Orange-
'nth under the age of 18, and therefore they were generally in
robust health, and they were all armed one way or other. All
slf them might be called into active service at the will of the
.eOuty grand master. On several occasions they had been
obey the
and reviewed, and every one of them was bound to
they. the summons of the deputy grand master. A great portion of the nobility and gentry of the north of Ireland were
mhoweref these societies. Members of trades' associations,
comparatively innocent, had been severely punished
for offences against laws, of the existence of which they were
ignorant. Such a plea, however, did not avail them when
hee.y appeared at the bar. These gentry and magistrates,
_ "'ever, could not make such an excuse, for they must be
°;iare that they offended against the laws of their country.—
knZng ' chat The lower membet s of the Orange lodges,
t they had the magistrac to back them, were
I,lc)uraged to the commission of theymost serious offences.
catehrni.embers of these lodges were an exclusive class, as no
one was admitted. There could be little doubt but that
these societies drew a line of distinction between the great
of the people of the country and the magistracy, to
where they ought to look up for protection ; this led to the
Fenlmission of outrages whenever the two parties were brought
I:olef°entaet. This was a question which it behoved the House
Members
eulatiinellier
t .aee
he uP without delay. He had no hesitation in saying that
not admitted
r in which ihe Orangemen were bound together
Ittedsocieties illegal ; and lie was sure that most of the
leoti ion tie of them were fully aware of it. The members were
without a religious sanction. The next reso-
be_ exclusively.
e had to propose stated this : it was—
bers,eatinadt the Orange Institution of Ireland is unlimited in num-
tbiusgto long to priyaatPerotestant Association ; that every member
lodge, to which he is admitted under a
sanction, and with a religious ceremony, carrying a bible
leeret hands, submitting to certain forms and declarations, and taught
signs and pass-words."
mr.'-ne, ceremony was described in the evidence of the Rev.
prPe Sullivan, page 48, question 773. It was as follows:-
41;, applicant shall be introduced between two sponsors,
eieuely, the brethren who proposed and seconded his admis-
atoi' earrYing the Bible in his hands with the book of rules,
e. regulations laid thereon. Two brethren shall precede
his
at). un his entering the room, a chaplain, if present, or in
etoie'ence, a brother appointed by the master, shall read the
Art thor part of what follow 0 Lord God of our fathers!
kits(' not God of Heavens , and rulest not thou over all the
aecte.Pins of the heathen, and in thy hand is there not power
liite'ught, so that none are able to withstand thee ? Who is
tlotinnto thee the Lord among the Gods ? Who is like thee
in ta°llB in holiness, fearful in praises, doing. wonders ? Thou
tieettuty mercy hast led forth thy people, which thou
into
re-
lyboedThou hest guided them in thy strength into thy
tbe, "thitation. Lord, thou wilt ordain peace for us, for
0,3 hast wrought all our works in us. 0 Lord our
God wrought Lords have had dominion over us—but by thee
te-
y three make mention of thy name. Wherefore, g,lo-
ofYee Lord in the fires, even the name of the Lord God
tar Lord _
n the isles of the sea.' During the reading of
hretlithe
Candidate shall stand at the foot of the table—the
tiasto'en also standing in their places, and strictly silent.. The
this shall then say, Friend, what dost thou. desire in
44. meeting of true Orangemen ?' and the candidate shall
lion 'wer, s Of
in
f • - will and accord I desire admis-
festiLa,t° 'sour loyal institution.'
crteetion
Who will vouch
Master :
eh
friend gat he is au trUe. Protestant and loyal subject ?'
'kelt Sponsors shall bow to the master, and signify the same,.
tart. mentioning his own name.) Master—' What do )ou,
MasYt in Your hand ?' Candidate—' The word of God.
trill te,
Under the assurance of these worthy brothers,. we
other 'bust that you also carry it in your heart. What is the
Reletinaek?' Candidate—' The- book of your rules and rF
insta Master—' Under the like assurance, we will
vrill er trust that you will study them well, and that you
reeeha.beY them in all lawful matters. Therefore we gladly
friend., You into this order. Orangemen, bring to me
your
b hefore ti„ The candidate shall then be brought by his sponsorsof
Ae e master, the two brothers standing at each side
tppoic .
en tre of the table ; during this the chaplain or brother
and tll!ed shall say, Many shall be purified and made whole
ried, but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the
tie:sed shall understand,' but the wise shall understand.
Ilunde4iis he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand three
be, so and thirty days ; but go thou thy ways until the end
da..:! thou shalt rest and stand in the lot at the end of the
thi,Y • The candidate shall then kneel on his right knee, and
de.., Inkster shall invest him with the decoration of the or-
;.and orange sash. Then the chaplain or brother ap-
.•l7e"lled shall say, When thus it shall be in the midst of
ofit, land, among the People thou shalt be as the shaking
I,llraneolive tree and as the gleaning grapes when the
41:1? is
done. 'They shall lift up their voice, they
f sing for the majesty of the Lord; they shall cry aloud
trernr_ the sea. When the mountain of the house of the
'iluee,l shall be established on the top of the mountains, and it
tall be exalted above the hills, and the people shall flow into
fro and this shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for a
tronllet between thine eyes; for by strength of hand the Lord
thisught us forth nut of Egypt. Thou shalt therefore keep
ter ordinance in his season from year to year.' Then the mar-
Rama all say, We receive thee, dear brother, into the reli-
nriii•e
sand loyal institution of Orangemen, trusting that thou
of
on!bide a devoted servant of God and true believer in his
heilus Christ, a faithful subject of our King, and supporter
!r Constitution. Keep thou firm in the Protestant Church,
tenuing steadily her pure doctrines, and observing her ordi-
ene,? • Make thyself the friend of all pious and peaceable
oseen aviding strife and seeking benevolence ; slow to take
ills tea and offering none, thereby, so far as in thee lieth, turn-
twoslen. injustice of our adversaries into their own reproof and
coke In the name of the brotherhood, I bid thee wel-
wow" and Pray that thou mayest long continue among them a
end" Y Orangeman, namely, fearing God, honouring the King,
bte7laintaiaing the law.' Then the master shall communi-
e si or cause to be communicated, unto the new member
lain gns and pass-words of' the brotherhood, and the chap-
Rhhcor brother appointed shall say, Glory to God in the
n, and on earth peace, good- still towards men.' After
estr
811 the brother shall make obeisance to the master, and
broesent shall take their seats, the certificate of the new
etiesae r being first duly signed and registered."—(Loud
the eof " Hear, hear.") Was not this a profanation of
of
theriptures ?—( Great cheering.) What were the details
tvrittee Orange Lodges ? They may truly be said to be
the en blood.—( Cheers.) They arrogated to themselves
.the
eassumption that they exclusively were Protestants, and
Y censured and condemned all who did not follow the course
acePnarked out. A great portion of the police in Ireland
eh_u Orangemen, and it was impossible that they could dis-
the7 their duty with impartiality, or that they would forget
sibleiteist that bound them in this brotherhood. It was not pos-
at the people should rest satisfied as long as this state
Lora nga continued.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask the Noble
eetitl whether he would refuse to support the resolutions, and
miiot_e_to keep in New South Wales men who had not been
contr/o.°l- one-tenth or one-hundredth part of the criminal acts
kent pt by these Orangemen ?—( Hear, hear.) Books were
e4iesn
eevery lodge containing records of its proceedings, and
of these books were sent up to the Grand Lodge. The
loer, also, in which orders were communicated to these
madagt: not always by lettol:, lyet oral Gor,„nt,nieatiu.ls
eio `Ch
it was alleged in the evidence were considered
Lnsafc or improper to be sent in weiting. This latter

circumstance ought to excite a great degree of suspicion, and
should awaken the attention of the Government to the sub-
ject. He did not intend to go beyond the year 1825 in the
proceedings of the Orange lodges, when they formed new rules
and regulations, and where they got rid of the oath. The
general rules of this Orange association are :
" I. The Orange Institution consists of an unlimited number of
brethren, whose admission is not regulated by any other test than
these of their religious character and principles.
" 2. No person who at any time has been a Roman Catholic
can be admitted into the Institution, except by special application
to the Grand Lodge, or Grand Committee, accompanied by certi-
ficates and testimonials, transmitted through the Grand Secretary
of this county, which shall be so satisfactory as to produce a unani-
mous vote on the occasion. . . . .

" 3. Any member of the Orange institution who shall print or
circulate anything connected with the Institution affecting its
character, or the character of any of its members, without the sanc-
tion of the Grand Lodge or the Grand Committee, shall be expelled
by the Grand Lodge.
" 4. That every member of the Orange Institution shall belong
to a Private Lodge, and thai, no person shall be proposed as a
member of a Committee unless the Lodge to which he belongs is
mentioned."
Was not this sufficient evidence that they were an exclusive
association, and illegal in every sense of the word. He had
on former occasions expressed his dislike of Orange Lodges ;
but he was not aware of the extent of their mischievousness
until he had read the evidence taken before the Committee.
The next resolution which he bad to propose was :
" That no Lodge can be constituted without a warrant of the
Grand Lodge of Ireland, signed by the Grand Master and Office-
bearers for the time being, and having the seal of the Grand Lodge
thereto affixed.

COPY OF WARRANT OF THE 44 ORANGE INSTITUTION."
Day of County of
(Statute of William 111. )
*District of

___- 18----

" By virtue of this Authority.
Our well-beloved Brother ORANGE-MAN of the Purple Order
(and each of his Successors) is permitted to hold a LODGE,
No. , in the County and District above specified, to consist of
TRUE ORANGE-MEN, and to act as MASTER and perform the re-
quisites thereof.
(Count Seal) Given under our Great Seal. (Great Seal.)
Copy.) ERNEST, Grand Master.
Copy.) ENNISKILLEN, Deputy Grand Master.
Copy.) HENRY MAXWELL, Grand Secretary.
i Copy. War. SWAN, Deputy Grand Secretary.
(Copy. ALEXANDER PERCEVAL, Grand Treasurer.
(Copy. Huc Is R. BAKER, Deputy Grand Treasurer.
,igned by
County Grand Master. S
I am authorised to state, on the part of the Grand Orange Lodge
of Ireland, that a marching warrant only differs from this,* in the
district being filled up thus ; "District of Regiment."
HENRY MAXWELL, Grand Sec."
Here were the names of two Members of the House who
were office bearers of this association, namely, H. Maxwell
and A. Perceval.—( Hear, hear.) He held the establishment
of Orange lodges in the army to be a great misfortune, and
which ought to excite the immediate attention of Parliament.
A regimental lodge was considered to be a district lodge, and
sometimes there were two or three of them in one regiment.
In 1814, the grand lodge directed that all lodges in regiments
should be district lodges. Again, by the Isth rule of 1824,
it was ordered, " that regiments are to be considered as dis-
tricts, and that masters of all regimental lodges shall make
yearly returns of the numbers." This was after the Duke of
York had issued his order of July, 1822, against the esta-
blishment of Orange lodges in the army.—( Hear, hear.)
Was not this a violation of the law, and at the same time set-
ting at defiance the rules of military discipline.—( Hear, hear.)
No man belonging to one of these lodges could be ignorant
of what be was doing, or that he was not violating the law.—
( Hear, hear.) He found, by reference to this volume of evi-
dence, that the following- resolution of the committee of the
grand lodge was agreed to :
" Moved by Rev. C. Boyton, seconded by Francis Kierman.
" April 22, 1830.
" That this Committee recommended to the Grand Orange
Lodge, at its meeting on the sth of May, to establish a law that all
warrants in future be signed alone by the Grand Master, his Royal
Highness the Duke of Cumberland, by the senior D. G. M. of
Ireland, the Grand Secretary of Ireland, and countersigned by the
County Grand Master.
" W. Brownrigg, chairman. Thomas Nixon, A. G. I."
They were also told that blank warrants were signed by the
Duke of Cumberland. If any man was placed at the bar for
an offence, and said that he was ignorant that it was against
the law, the reply would be that he ought to have known the
law. It was also the duty of the Duke of Cumberland to
make himself acquainted with the state of the law as regarded
these associations.--( Hear, hear.) It was no excuse fora man
who sent a firebrand through the country that he did not
know the uses to which it might be applied. Other circum-
stances tended to show that the illustrious person he had
alluded to was not so ignorant of the law as was represented.
The Grand Orange Lodge bad been established in England,
and be had been informed that the members were sworn in ;
his informant told him that he was taken from the dinner table
and blindfolded, and led into a room, with a number of
idle ceremonies, and sworn in an Orangeman. Subscriptions
were entered into by the Orangemen of London to send mis-
sionaries to re-organise their institutions throughout the
country. The Duke of Cumberland was at the head of this
Lodge, and several Noblemen were members of it ; and he
found that so late as last May there had been a meeting of the
Society, at which Lord Kenyon presided. The resolutions
agreed to at this meeting had been brought to him by a man
who was present. After this it was perfectly futile to say that
the Duke of Cumberland was not aware of the nature of the
Society.—(Cheers.) Such was the persecution carried on by
these bodies, that a man had told him that he could not do for
him as he wished, because be was an Orangeman. The fourth
resolution was :
" That it appears by the laws and ordinances of the Orange In-
stitutions in Ireland, dated 1835, that the secretary of each private
Lodge is directed to report to the secretary of the district Lodge;
the secretary of each district Lodge to report to the grand secre-
tary of the county Lodge ; the grand secretary of the county Lodge
to report to the deputy grand secretary of the Grand Lodge in
Dublin ; and tine Grand Lodge to hold meetings at stated periods,
to transact the ordinary business of the Society ; and the deputy
grand secretary of the Grand Lodge to communicate half-yearly to
each Lodge in Ireland, and also to the Grand Lodge of Great
Britain."
It appeared that the 1,600 local lodges met at stated periods
twice a year; the proceedings of each were reported to the
respective district lodges, reports from each of which were
sent up to the Grand Lodge. The Grand Lodge met at cer-
tain periods, and on adjournment appointed a Grand Commit-
tee, which met every Wednesday for the transaction of busi-
ness.—( Hear, hear.) Was not this sufficient evidence of the
complete organization of this society, and that there was an
immediate connection between the extremities and the centre;
and that the most ready communication could be made from
the one to the other? He could refer the House to several
parts of Mr. Swan's evidence in confirmation of this, and
particularly to questions 1,304 and 1,509. He could also re-
fer to other documents, to shew the organization of these so-
cieties, and the effect it was likely to have on the peace of
Ireland. An advertisement had appeared in one of the Dublin
papers respecting the proceedings of the Orangemen of the
county of Tyrone. in 1834. It requested that every private
lodge would choose a delegate to send to this meeting, to
petition against the Government. He brought forward the
present motion, in confidence of obtaining the support of the
Government. If the Whig Government had done their duty
four years ago, they would have put down these societies.
They appeared afraid of interfering with these societies, in-
stead of putting their feet upen them, and trampling them to
the ground. These Orangemen were countenanced by so many
Members of both Houses of Parliament and persons in autho-
rity, that they imagined that they could break the law with
impunity. Deputies from each of the district lodges formed
the Grand Lodge. This lodge contained 600 Noblemen and
Gentlemen. Mr. Blacker, in his evidence, stated that mis-
sionaries were sent by this lodge to Manchester, Liverpool,
Bristol, Glasgow, and other places, for the purpose of orga-
nizing Orange societies. One of! the rules of the private
lodges was as follows :
" In order to establish a fund to defray the expenses of the
Grand Lodge of Ireland, each lodge shall transmit a subscription
of not less than 2s. 6d. annually to the county treasurer, to be by
him forwarded (at the same time with the return of the county
grand officers in April) to the deputy grand treasurer of Ireland.
Mr. Blacker stated that there was a considerable deficiency
in the funds of the chief lodge, as the subscriptions were not
paid up. He thought that he had proved this resolution to
the satisfaction of all. The next he had to propose was,
" That Orange lodges have individually and collectively addressed
his Majesty, both Houses of Parliament, the Lord-Lieutenant, and
others, on special occasions of a political nature—such as on the
subject of the Colonies, the change of Ministry, the education of the
people, the Repeal of the Union, Catholic Emancipation, and Re-
form of Parliament."

Cons

He would leave out of the Resolution the observation about
the Colonies, as he did not think that it was necessary then to
introduce the subject. The evidence in support of this Reso-
lution afforded an answer to the observations that had been
made at the early part of the Session as to his Majesty having
given gracious answers to the addresses of Orange Lodges,
when no answer had been given to addresses coming from the
most respectable classes. He found that an active Orange
Magistrate had had his name struck out of the Commission of
the Peace, and he trusted that Lord Melbourne's Government
would not only strike out the name of any Magistrate from
the Commission of the Peace who belonged to this society,
but that they would also order them to be tried.—( Hear,
hear.) To expect anything like justice from such Magistrates
was utterly inconsistent with all his ideas of good Government.
—(Cheers.) He found the following order in Mr. Blacker's
evidence :
" [Appendix 76].—That eirenlars be forwarded to the several
masters of the Orange Lodges in Ireland, requesting therri to pro-
cure petitions from their several lodges to both Houses of Parlia-
ment against the new Irish Education system, also against the
Irish Reform Bill, and to forward them without delay to the Right
Hon. the Earl of Roden, House of Lords, London, indorsed, " Par-
liamentary Petition.' "
Was it surprising when such occurrences took place that
they saw the Right Hon. Recorder (Mr. Shaw) come down
to the House with a multitude of petitions against Irish edu-
cation, when all these 1,600 lodges were directed to send up
their petitions.—( Hear, hear.) It was well for the Right Hon.
Gentleman to say that the people of Ireland were opposed to
these measures of the Government, but they proved how the
opposition was got up. Again, in 28th Nov., 1628.
" Resolved, that we deem it essential, for the preservation of our
Protestant Constitution, that it should co-operate with the Com-
mittee of the Brunswick Club in procuring and obtaining signatures
to petitions to be presented to his Afajesty and both Houses of Par-
liament, against further concessions to persons professing the Popish
or Roman Catholic Religion."—( Hear. )
The sixth resolution he intended to propose was,
" That the Grand Lodge of Ireland has interfered in political
questions, and expelled members for the exercise of their constitu-
tional and social rights ; has hltcrfered at ekeficm, and defended
criminal prQ,caitie:',.., ti appesr.i fro ..11 the evi,j, fsom the
minutes of proceedings in the hook of the Grand Lodge produced
before the Select Committee."

In conformity with this Resolution he found—
" Q. 1935. That Mr. Archibald Fisher was expelled the society
for canvassing and being an active partizan, and heading processions
of bodies of men whose principles may be judged, from their shout-
ing O'Connell and the repeal of the Union."
" Q. 1937. That John Hitton was removed from the Committee
of the Grand Lodge, for not having voted at the late city election,
that being on the 9th of June, 1831."
He hoped the Noble Lord would be satisfied now of the
interference of the Orange Society with the freedom of elec-
tion. Seeing the engines at work it was surprising that there
was not more opposition in Ireland to liberal measures.
Again, " That Mr. Ex-Sheriff Scott be expelled the insti-
tution for introducing Daniel O'Connell at breakfast on poli-
tical principles which we do not approve."--(Loud cheers.)
This was a most respectable man, and had been expelled for
this trifling reason. He should not object to these societies if
they took care that their partizans were properly registered ;
but they went far beyond this. In proof of what he said, he
would merely refer to question 1548 and 1247. Again, there
was the following evidence :--
"Q. 1938. That the Grand Committee be directed to remove
from the list of officers of the Grand Lodge the name of any per-
son or persons supporting the Reform Bil as proposed by his Ma-
jesty's pr& sent Government.
"Q. 1939. Tnat the Rev. Henry Cottingham and th-e Rev.
Samuel Wills were expelled the institution on the Bth of June,
1831, for sacrificing their principles as Orangemen by voting for
the Reform candidates."

EXTRACTS FROM THE APPENDIX.

" Ist September, 1831.
" That Major Brownrigg be expelled from this Committee, in
consequence of his conduct at the recent election in Dublin, arid
that his expulsion from the institution at large be recommended to
the Grand Lodge of Ireland, and that a copy of this resolution be
forwarded to the King's county Grand Lodge."
" 12th February, 1833.
" That a sum of 102. sterling be placed at the disposal of Brother
M'Ncale, for the purpose of defending an Orangeman, at present
in the gaol at Dundalk."
He understood that the person alluded to was to be tried for
an attempt to murder a man with a butcher's knife. It did
not signify the nature of the offence which these persons com-
mitted, es they knew that they would have the Orange Society
to defend them against every charge that might be brought
against them. The result of the system of which he com-
plained was, that in cases in which Orangemen and Catholics
were apprehended for rioting, the Orangemen were let loose,
and the Catholics prosecuted. If it did happen that the case
was so flagrant as to oblige them to prosecute the Orangemen,
money was sent to him, and he was furnished with the means
of defence.

Colonel PERCE VAL made some remarks, which occa-
sioned loud cries of " Order !" He said he wished to explain.
—( Renewed cries of " Order," and " Chair.")
The SPEAKER said it would give much greater facility tc
their proceedings, and be much more consistent with the prac-
tice of the House, as well as more convenient to the MemberE
individually, if the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would take a
note of any point which he wished to remark upon, and reserv,
his explanation till the Hon. Member for Middlesex had con-
cluded.—( Hear, hear. )

Mr. HUME proceeded: He would refer to the evidence,
in corroboration of what he had stated. Question ; " Under
the date of the 13th of February, 1833, there is this entry ;
That a sum of Jul. sterling be placed at the disposal of bro
ther M'Neale for the purpose of defending the Orangemai:
at present in the gaol of Dundalk ;' is that correct?—lt is."
This was a single instance, and one in which only 10/. has;
bee.) advanced, but there were others in which it might be
supposed that the sums were much more considerable. Take
the following question :—" Do they advance money for the-
purpose of carrying on the prosecution or the defence of an)
causes of any particular description ?—When petitions or me-
morials have come up to the Grand Lodge, stating that sub-
scriptions have been raised, or are in the act of being raised
against any member of their body, or that a prosecution is un-
justly—(hear, from the Opposition side)—pending over their
heads, the Grand Lodge, after due inquiry, have at various
times advanced sums of money in defence of those brethren."
Hon. Gentlemen cried " Hear, hear," where there was a re-
ference to the prosecution being unjust; but let him ask
who was to decide that it was unjust ?—( Cheers.) Would any
man be such a fool as to say that he sent money to defend a
culprit who deserved to be prosecuted ?—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He would now refer to the questions, " If Mr. M'Beith was
considered unjustly accused of murder, that would be a ground
for supplying him with money for his defence ?—Yes, I con-
ceive so. Mr. M'Beith was found guilty of manslaughter,
was he not ?—I know nothing of the circumstances except
what I have heard, but I believe so. Have you ever heard
that that verdict was impugned for partiality I never
heard it had been." He thought he knew who had put the
latter question, because the answer was put first. It appeared,
then, that money was supplied by the Grand Orange Lodges
to defend persons charged with outrages ; therefore he
charged the members of the Grand Orange Lodges with
being the aiders, abettors, and defenders, of the riots which
took place in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Such conduct must
have the effeet he attributed to it ; parties of course would not
so much care about getting into any scrape, if they knew that
they were sure of having the means of defence. To show
the interference of these lodges in political matters, he
begged attention to the following :

" 24th Dec. 1834.

" That a document be prepared to be forwarded to the Orange
electors of the city of Armegh, calling on them most strongly to
support a Protestant Candidate, and give their most determined
opplsition to the return to Parliament of Mr. Dobbin, or any'utTgr
person professing the same radical principles."
Now, judging from what he had seen of the Hon. Gentle-
man Mr. Dobbin, he must say he was a Radical of the
mildest description.—( Hear.) The next resolution which he
should move was most important, it was this—

" That it appears by the books of the Grand Lodge of Ireland,
produced by its Deputy Grand Secretary, before the Select Com-
mittee of this House, that the undermentioned warrants for consti-
tuting and holding Orange Lodges have hoen issued, to Non-Com-
missioned Officers and 'Privates of the following Regiments of Ca-
valry and of Infantry of the Line, at home and abroad • to Non-
Commissioned Officers of the Staff of several Militia Regiments;
to members of other corps, and to the Police."
( Loud cries bf " Hear, hear !") He would ask the House
when the Police who belonged to these lodges came in contact
with Catholics and Protestant Orangemen, how was it pos-
sible that they could act impartially ?—( Cheers.) His reso-
lution then went on to specify the persons to whom warrants
appeared, according to the register of the Grand Lodge-ot
Ireland, to have been granted. The Report gave this ques-
tion :—" Have the goodness to look at number 415, ' 30th
January, 1835, Peter Duff, Fermanagh Militia;" do you find
that entry in the book ?—I remember perfectly a renewal of
that warrant being taken out by Lord Cole " Lord Cole then
took out that warrant ! If that could be proved, if it did not
dismiss Lord Cole from his regiment, the standing orders
were of no force. Question 2,571 stated that a warrant num-
bered 567, was granted to John Kennedy, Dublin, Ist Dra-
goon Guards, December 26, 1831. In the extracts from the
book of proceedings of the Committee of the Grand Lodge,
-was the following :-
4, Ist Jan. 1834.

" Resolved, that warrant No. 1592, be granted to Joseph Mei_
neigh, of the First Royals, on the recommendation of brother Adam
Scheales, of Derry.

" N. D. CROMELIN.
" 25th March, 1835."

N. D. Cromelin was in the chair, and there were the names
of some fourteen or fifteen other individuals as present on
that occasion. After seeing this, if there was any one who
could believe that warrants were granted, and that the mem-
bers of the lodge knew nothing about it, he must think such
credulous individuals wanting in common sense.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman referred to several other cases, in which
warrants had been granted in a similar manner. They were
all signed by the Field Marshal • and was he to be told that
that individual was ignorant of the existence of such lodges
in the army. He found from forty to fifty officers connected
with these proceedings. He would ask the Hon. and Gallant
Member himself how he could sit as a member of the lodge,
and allow of such proceedings? He could only say that if
such practices were to exist, the sooner they dismissed the
army the better. They paid for Lord Hill's staff 16,0001. a
year ; and he, for one, would vote against the maintenance of
that staff, unless Lord Hill could take care that an end was put
to these proceedings. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for
Ireland (Lord Morpeth) should look to it. Could he expect
the Yeomanry, if they were members of Orange lodges, to act±-
impartially between the Protestants and Catholics ?—( Hear,
hear.) Would he dare to call them out ? They ought to be
dismissed instantly.—( Cheers.) Every Orange magistrate
ought also to be dismissed.—( Cheering.) They might de-
pend upon it there would be no peace for Ireland while a dif-
ferent course was taken. This was a time to speak out.—
, —(Cheers.) He was expressing his own opinions, and he
was happy to find them so well received.—( Loud cheers.)
There must be a clean sweep made of all—the polies included
—who had any connection with the Orange Lodges. Mr. J.
Crawford gave an instance of his being called to put down a
row, while he had the command of a military corps, and when
the men were desired to desist from their attacks upon .the
people, they said, " Oh I why should we obey your orders?
The Duke of Cumberland gave us authority, and he is a
Prince ; the brother of his Majesty." The Hon. Gentleman
here produced a certificate, bearing the signature of the Duke
of Cumberland; and also a tin case, such as soldiers keep
their certificates in—tin cases being generally used in the
army for the preservation of valuable papers. It commenced
with " King and Constitution I "--.( Hear, hear.) That was a
blind, that they might do mischief. The men who had these
words frequently in their mouths, he dreaded the most,—
(Hear' hear, from the Opposition side.) They affected to be
loyal, but they were the greatest disturbers of the public.
peace. Their loyalty, too, was conditional. As. long as the
King maintained their ascendancy they were loyal ; but as
soon as any thing was done by his Majesty, tending to destroy
that ascendancy, their loyalty was at an-. end.—(" No, no
and " Yes, yes I") These documents had engraved upon them
likenesses of William 111. The members knew one another
by signs.. He contended that if such a society had been known
to exist, severe laws would have passed for its suppression.
There were active proceedings at Malta. That these Lodges
were extending themselves would appear from the following :
" 17th December, 1829.
" Moved by the Rev. C. Bo ton, seconded by E. Cottingharn,
" That the neat dormant Number be issued to the 66th regi-
ment, and the Quebec brethren be directed to send in a correct re-
turn, in order that nosy warrants be issued."
" 17th November, 1831.
[Appendix 76.3—" Your committee have received from America
the most cheering accounts, and the lodges now sitting there under
your warrants emulate each other in evincing their gratitude for, the
interest taken by you in their welfare."
He came now to the Bth resolution—
" That such warrants are sent privately and indirectly to such
Non-commissioned Officers and Privates, without the knowledge
or sanction of the Commanding Officers of such, Regiments_ yr
cyri,; ; a4..1 evcry Lv.lge licitl by the Auity as a eics-
lifiet Ludye."
He would -wit read to the Heine correspondence,

wbich;.,he would ask the Noble Lord whether he could sanction
so underhand—so base a proceeding :

COPY OF A LETTER FROM WILLIAM SCOTT TO WILLIAM SWAN,
THE DEPUTY ASSISTANT, GRAND SECRETARY OF THE GRAND
LODGE. [Q. 2856.]
" 15th February, 1833.
" SIR,—We, the Master, Deputy Master, and Secretary of 1458
Orange Lodge, of the 16th Company Royal Sappers and Miners,
having in August, 1831, taken out the above Warrant from the
county of Antrim Grand Lodge, we are increasing in number, and
wish to be- supplied with any information which the Grand Lodge
from time to time sends to our other country brethren. The regu-
lations not pointing out any means for Military Lodges holding com-
munication, we have therefore come to the resolution of applying by
letter to you for instruction, which will be most thankfully received.
From the peculiar nature of our duty, we do not remain long in
any place ; therefore, your answering this as soon as possible will
confer a lasting obligation on your most obedient, humble servants
and brethren, William Scott, Master; Daniel Rock, Deputy Mas-
ter; Edward Dixon, Secretary."
rAppendix] " William Scott, 16th Company Royal Sappers and
Miners.

" That the Committee would most willingly forward all docu-
ments connected with the Orange system to any confidential per-
son in Ballymena, as prudence would not permit that printed
documents be forwarded direct to our military brethren.—
( Cheers.) J.,,
" [Q. 2,586]. In reply to this a letter from Mr. Scott, dated
18th February, stating, " I have to acknowledge the receipt of your
etter of the 13th instant, and take this opportunity of expressing
my thanks for the kind and gentlemanly manner in which you have
answered last month's letter. I trust you will be kind enough to
convey the thanks of the brethren of No. 1,458, to the committee
of the Grand Lodge, for their prompt consideration of our business,
as well as for the interest they have shown in our welfare. The
parcel containing the papers, &c., can be directed to Mr. Andi•ev.-
Crosbie, saddler, who is a faithful brother, and can be depended
on."—( Cheers. )
The 9th Resolution is this— _ _ .

" That the general orders of the Commander-in-Chief of the
Forces (Parliamentary Paper, No. 395 of 1835) addressed in the
years 1822 and 1829, to commanding officers of regiments and de-
depots, and to general officers and other officers on the staff at home
and abroad, strongly reprobate the holding of Orange lodges in any
regiment, as 'fraught with injury to the discipline of (lie army;'
aud, that on military grounds the holding of Orange lodges in
any regiment or corps, is contrary to the order and to the
rules of the service and, that a disregard of this caution will
subject offending parties to trial and punishment for disobedience
of orders.' "
(Cheers.) Having laid these facts before the
,House, he would
ask, could it be believed that his Majesty was aware of them ?
The Noble Lord ought to take his Majesty's opinion on the
subject. The Duke of Cumberland did not issue the warrants
with his own hands; the blank warrants were put before him,
and he signed them ; but there was an engraven memorandum
at the bottom, and he would ask whether that was there at the
time of the signature? He was informed that Lord Hill knew
eothing of this matter, and that three years ago he did insti-
tute an inquiry. Colonel Dixon put down an Orange lodge
in his regiment : but he did not do so till he found there ex-
isted in it a Riband Society also. Ile tolerated the Orange
lodge till he fonnd the re-action.
The tenth and eleventh Resolution which he had to move
avers the following :
" That these Resolutions, and the evidence taken before the
Select Committee on Orange Lodges, be laid before his Majesty.
" That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying
that he will be graciously pleased to direct his Royal attention to
the nature and extent of Orange Lodges in his Majesty's Army,
in contravention of the general orders of the Commander-in-Chief
o: his Majesty's Forces, issued in the year 1822 and 1829, which
strongly reprobate and forbid the holding of Orange lodges in any
of his Majesty's regiments ; and also to call his attention to the
nreurnstance of his Royal Highness Ernest, Duke of Cumberland,
a Field Marshal in his Majesty's Army, having signed warrants,
in his capacity of Grand Master of the Grand Orange Lodge of
Ireland (some of them dated so recently as April in the present
year) which warrants have been issued for constituting Orange
Lodges in the army."
The Hon. Gentleman concluded with moving his first re-
solution.
The question was then put by the SPEAKER.
Mr. W. PATTEN intended to move an amendment to
to the motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and in
doing so he • must express his surprise at the manner in which
the Hon. Gentleman had introduced his resolution to the
House.—( Hear, hear.) If ever there was a farce, the pre-
scut proceeding was one.—( Hear, hear.) This subject was
referred to a Select Committee, while the Committee was pro-
ceeding with their inquiry, the House was put into possession of
part of the evidence, which did not amount to half; and the
ilon. Gentleman availing himself of this portion, brought for-
ward resolutions on which he grounded attacks on the cha-
ractertair of individuals.—(
the a 1
Houses come v (Hceoanrs,
e n t hear.)to toa
would
resolution
u twason o thisn
the subject, on the statement of the Hon. Gentleman ? In
.
his opinion, they should reserve their decision till the whole
evidence was before them. For his part, he could not but
express a hope that other societies might be included in the
resolution. They had now proof of the most clear and dis-
tinct kind that riband societies existed in the very district over
which Sir F. Stovin presided—such was the secrecy which
attended them. On that ground be felt that the systein of
ribandism was still more dangerous than that of Orange lodges,
inas:nuch as the secrecy of its constitution had totally baf-
fled all attempts to inquire into it. With the evidence,
however, which the House had of its existence, he thought
that there could be no indisposition to include it within tl.e
scope of the resolution. He now came to the subject ef the
last resolution,. in which reference was made to en illustrious
Duke, and the share which he was supposed to have taken
in the promotion of Orange lodges. He thought that it would
be an act of grors inkstice to imply an accusation against that
illustrious Duke before they had gone fully into the evidence
which might be brought before the Committee with the view
of explaining his connection with the system. He should
move, as an amendment, that all the resolutions which the
lion. Gentleman proposed should be omitted, with the excep-
Lion of a portion of the last ; or that the motion should be to
this effect :—That an address be presented to his Majesty,
graying him to direct his royal attention to the nature and
extent of Orange lodges existing in his Majesty's army, in
contravention of the general orders issued in 1822 and 1829,
end also to cause investigation to be made into the existence
of other secret societies."
Mr. FINN strongly deprecated the nature and constitution
)f the system of Orange lodges. He read an extract from the
proceedings at a meeting for the promotion of Orange lodges
in England, held at Lord Kenyon's house, with the Duke of
Cumberland in the chair, who was appointed grand master
of the empire; and also from an address which had been pre
seated to that illustrious Duke, beginning with the words :
" We, vonr dutiful subjects"—an extraordinary expression.
said the Honourable Member, showing that those from whom
it came bad begun a little too carly.—( Laughter.) He
also read some of the names of the members of those lodges,
which excited some cheering in the House; among them
were those of Lord Wynford, late a Judge of the land ; the
Lord Bishop of Salisbury ; Colonel Verner, M. P., H.
Maxwell, M. P. ; and then referred to a letter which had
been written by a member of them, evincing a disposition on
the part of the authorities of the lodges to reject certain mem-
bers, because they had exercised the elective franchise accord-
ing to their independent will. Three individuals had voted
for the Whig candidate at an election for a borough, " con-
trary," as the letter said, " to the principles of our loyal in-
stitution ;" and that was characterized as a proceeding calling
loudly for the expulsion of those offenders, or delinquents as
they were termed. The Hon. Member also read an address
from the Grand Committee of the Orange Institution of
of Great Britain to the Carlton Club and Conservatives of
England, which spoke of the advantages afforded by the Insti-
tution, which being in active correspondence with all its
branches, possessed the means of knowing the opinions of
every man in the country. He promised the House that if
this system were to continue in England, that country would
would reap the same bitter fruits which had attended it in Ire-
land. With respect to the existence of Riband Societies, lie
could only express his general wish to see every secret society
of that description put down. He wished to see the whole
system laid prostrate, feeling that it was incompatible with the
peace and happiness of England.—( Cheers. )
Colonel WOOD felt quite persuaded that the Duke of
Cumberland could not know any thing of the purpose to which
these warrants were applied. In confirmation of that assertion,
he could state, that it was only yesterday that he suet his Royal
Highness the Duke of Cumberland, on his way to the House
-of Lords ; and he stated distinctly, that his uniform practice
had been to sign the warrants when blanks were left with him
to be filled up.—( A cry of " Oh.") He only stated what his
Royal Highness had told him, and what he believed.
' Mr. MAXWELL was not prepared to defend the existence
of Orange Lodges in the army ; he considered it highly im-
proper that they should continue in it.—( Hear.) He could
assure the House, however, most sincerely, that until he heard
the fact mentioned in the Committee, he was not aware that
the practice alluded to had prevailed.
Mr. WARD hesitated notto say, that if the House consented
to the amendment proposed, they would shrink from the pe.r-
formance of their duty.—( Hear, hear.) After the inquiry
which was instituted to examine into the state of Orange
Lodges had proceeded a considerable way in the investigation,
it was ascertained that the system had been introduced into the
army, and prevailed to a considerable extent. This organized
plan of Orange Lodges had, it appeared, extended itself to re-
giments in Canada and Malta, and the Committee expressed
their satisfaction at the cheering accounts which they had re-
ceived from the regiments in those quarters. What right, be
asked, had the Orange Lodges thus illegitimately and uncon-
stitutionally to interfere with the British soldier, and convey an
insinuation into the minds of these men that a private Associa-
tion of this description could in any way influence their welfare.
It was the bounders duty of Parliament to :make known these
proceedings to the Constitutional Sovereign of the Realm,
though they did not, of course, suggest what steps should be
taken, in order to put an end to them.—( Hear.) There was a
meeting at Lord Kenyon's, at which his Royal Highness the
Duke of Cumberland presided, at which it was determined
that a certain sum of 15s. should be paid on taking out a war-
rant for forming lodges, but by which a special exception was
made with respect to non-commissioned officers, soldiers, and
, sailors, whose admission fee was left to the discretion f the
Committee. And yet the Illustrious Duke professed his ig-
norance of the existence of this system in the army..---( Hear,
hear.) Accompanying this circumstance with the number of
these warrants which were issued, as a conscientious man he
could not entertain a doubt that his Royal Highness must
have been aware that many of them were applied to the for-
mation of Orange Lodges in the army.—( Hear, bear, and a
cry of " Oh !" from the Opposition.) He did not, he reite-
rated, for a moment doubt it.—( Hear, hear.) He had a per-
fect horror of all illegal societies whatever, in the army. He
felt himself well qualified to judge of their effects, it having
been his fate to have spent some years in countries on the pro-
ems of rv:dittion.—( A cry of " Hear," from the Opposition.)
Gca-1 I use that, ,11,,51d-s:ky that there ',Nati another conii'ry
undergoing that process, though he could not declare such a
react to be impossible, if such practices as these were allowed

to be continued in the army.—(Cheers.) The spirit which
gave rise to this was, he was persuaded, the main spring of
all the jealousies, heart-burnings, and distractions, to which
the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman's (Mr. Perceval) own ceun-
try was subjected.—( Cheers.) Look at it pervadinc, the yeo-
manry in that country, who could not be employed for the
protection of life or property, without ensuring a violent exer-
tion of authority on the one side, and a connivance at any
misconduct or outrage which might be committed on the other.
—( Hear, hear.) It was now spreading through the army,
and it already pervaded the bar and the bench in that coon-
try.—( Cheers.) He concluded by expressing his conviction
that the House would be guilty of a dereliction of duty, if,
from false delicacy or fear, they delayed in assenting to the
resolution.—( Cheers. )
Colonel PE RCE VAL admitted that the existence of
Orange Lodges in the army was not defensible ; but with
respect to Ireland, the way to act fairly by that country would
be to put down all societies whatever.---( Hear, hear.) These
Orange societies were resorted to in self-defence by the Pro-
testants, and not from any hostility to the Catholics. The
warrants which had been spoken of were signed by Mr.
Maxwell and himself, and transmitted to the Duke of Cum-
berland, who knew nothing of their ultimate destination.
At the time the warrants in question were issued, it was his
entire conviction that his Royal Highness the Duke of Cum-
berland had no more idea of the purpose for which they were
intended than he (Colonel Perceval) had when he signed
them himself. He denied that the Orange societies violated
any existing statutes. They exacted no oaths, no declara-
tions, no tests. Their object was to maintain that union
with England the severence of which was the object of their
opponents. He was persuaded that Orange lodges did not
exist in several of the regiments which had been alluded to ;
and he hoped the Noble Lord the Secretary at War would
state that fact.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL felt regret that his Hon. Friend
the Member for Middlesex had brought forward the subject at
the present period. At the same time, as his Hon. Friend
had in the exercise of his discretion, thought it right to do so,
be (Lord John Russell) felt it to be incumbent upon him
frankly to state his opinion respecting it. In expressing his
disapprobation of Orange societies, it could not be imputed to
him that he selected them as the sole objects of his censure ;
the fact being that ever since he had been a Member of that
House, he had expressed his hostility to all secrets of a
similar description, and had been a party, to the framing of laws
to put them down. He was also a most willing party to the
Proclamation of 1831, which put a-stop to the proceedings,
the dangerous proceedings as he considered them, of the Bir-
mingham Political Union. And whenever the laws against
secret societies had been violated, he had always been desirous
of punishing the violators, in order by their example to
deter others from pursuing the same mischievous course.
Having always entertained these opinions, and having al-
ways, as far as he could, enforced those opinions against po-
pular societies, and societies composed of the humbler
classes, it behoved him not to shrink from expressing the
same condemnation when some of the highest and most
illustrious persons in the realm —(Loud shouts of hear,
hear, hear, which prevented us from hearing the close of
the Noble Lord's sentence)—when individuals of extensive
party connections, of high rank, civil and military, bound
themselves to the support of such societies, the injury they
were calculated to produce was of course greatly increased.
If such societies confined themselves to the object for the at-
tainment of which it was professed that they were framed—
the maintenance of peace and harmony—still he should con-
sider them injurious. But when he saw them gettinr, on by
degrees until they broke the peace which they professed to
keep—until they corrupted the justice which they professed to
maintain—until they seduced those over whom the King's
prerogative alone ought to have influence—he thought it was
the duty of Parliament by every means to discountenance,
and, if possible, to put a termination to such mischievous corn-
binations.—( Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman who
had just sat down had spoken of the existence of Ribbonmen
in the regiments, as a kind of justification for the introduction
into those regiments of Orange Lodges. He ( Lord John Rus-
sell) had nothing to do with the disputes between contending
parties. If there were Ribbon societies in the army, let them
be put down too. Let Parliament deal with a firm and im-
partial hand in suppressing societies, of whatever denomina-
tion, so fruitful of insubordination and mischief.—( Hear;
hear.) It was with great alarm that he had heard the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down, the treasurer of the Orange
lodges, and the Hon. Member for Cavan, the secretary of
those odges, declare their total ignorance of the existence of
such lodges in the army. The Ifon. and Gallant Member for
Sligo had told the House that his Royal Highness the Duke
of Cumberland, on the faith of his representations, had signed
blank warrants ; and that he himself had signed them in con-
fidence in some other person. Added to this alarming fact
was the other alarming and indisputable fact (acknowledged
with the utmost frankness before the Orange Committee) that
warrants had been sent to forty regiments; to the non-com-
missioned officers and to soldiers—signed by the Hon. Mem.:
ber for Sligo, and by the Duke of Cumberland, a Prince of
the Blood, without either of those parties knowing anything
of the fact, and, indeed, being prepared loudly to condemn it.
He only wondered, when he heard these things, that one fur-
ther declaration was not added to those which had been made,
namely, that the individuals in question, deeply lamenting that
they belonged to a society which had made so improper a
use of their names, and seeing that the discipline of the
army was in danger of being destroyed under pretence of
their authority, had not lost- a minute in making it known
that they had ceased to be members of such a society.—
, (Hear, hear.) For his part, he was utterly at a, lose to
conceive hew they could take any other course.—( Hear. )
He could not conceive it possible that the illustrious Prince
who was at the head of the Orange Institutions, when the
actual facts were brought home to his conviction, could think it
consistent with his duty as a Prince of the Blood, and holding
so high a rank in the army, to continue in that situation.—
(Hear, hear.) In what be had said, ho bad uttered nothing
in condemnatiem of his Royal Highness, or of the Hon. Mem-
bers, and had thrown out no imputation against them, except
by stating what they had themselves avowed. He did not im-
pute to them (what certainly would be a very grave offence)
that they-had a knowledge of the existence of Orange Lodges
in the army. With these views, he now came to the consi-
deration of the resolutions proposed by his Hon. Friend the
Member for Middlesex. On reading them over, they appeared
to him to contain only what they ought to contain--a sketch
of the constitution of the Orange Lodges. If they contained
anything more, that lie would propose to omit. Seeing that
the great officers of the Orange Lodges denied and repudiated
having any knowledge of the application of the warrants to the
creation of Orange Lodges in the army, he (Lord J. Russell)
had endeavoured to find out who the persons were who had con-
trived that misapplication. On this point he would read two of
the questions and answers, which appeared in the evidence of
Mr. Blacker, given before the Select Committee on Orange
Lodges. The first was as follows :—" Are you aware whether
the members of the Grand Lodge generally approve of the
existence of regimental Orange- Lodges ?—To my own know-
ledge there is a vast difference of opinion on that subject
with many of the intelligent and influential members be-
longing to the Grand Lodge of Ireland : some do not think
it right, or proper, or conducive to the well-being and dis-
cipline of the Army in general, that such societies should
exist • but they have been overborne by a certain majority
on that point." He (Lord John Russell) had ascertained
that the Grand Lodge in Ireland consisted of about three
hundred persons of rank and property. Now it was difficult
to excuse them, or, at any rate, it was difficult to excuse
the minority—it was, indeed, difficult to believe that some
member of that minority- did not make known to the Hon.
and Gallant Member for Sligo, and to persons of still higher
rank, the fact of the existence of regimental Orange Lodges.
—( Hear, hear.) And why did the majority approve of such
Lodges? The answer to the next question would show:—
" What do you conceive to have induced the majority of
the Grand Lodge to give their sanction to the existence or
continuance of regimental Orange Lodges ?—lt is the know-
ledge and belief that societies, dangerous to the Established
Church, and to the Protestant _ institutions of the country,

already exist to a
,very great and dangerous degree through-
out the British army ; and those-members have argued and
come to the conclusion, that they have no right to keep
from soldiers -making applications for Orange warrants, when
they have heard of the existence of such dangerous insti-
tutions, the effects of which, as far as in their power lies,
can only be mitigated and neutralized by the establish-
ment of Orange Lodges."—(Hear, hear.) He wanted no
other proof of the evil of such societies. It was declared
that their knowledge and belief of the existence in the
army of societies dangerous to the Established Church
and the Protestant institutions of the country, induced the
Grand Lodge to approve of the formation of Orange Lodges.
Instead of applying to the high military authorities to put
down the other Societies, they set up Societies of their own
to counteract them! .What was that but to render the Bri-

tish army, instead of a scene of perfect harmony, which it
ought to he, a scene of contention and discord ? having one
lot of soldiers ready to fight against another, instead of act-
ing altogether under his Majesty's authority to preserve the
peace of the country against all offenders, be they Orange-
men, be they Catholics, be they Ribandmen, or be they
foreigners. With these impressions on his mind, therefore,
he could not do otherwise than be
.prepared to agree to
such of the resolutions as concerned, in the first place, the
formation and constitution of Orange Lodges and Orange
Societies; and in the second place, such as concerned the
introduction of those Societies and Lodges into the army.
But the Hon. Member had introduced whet be conceived to

be an obstacle- in the way oPthe House agreeing to the whole
of the resolutions, by the reference made in the last reso-
lution to an illustrious iudividual—..to his Royal. Highness
the Duke of Cumberland.—now holding the rank of
Field-
Marshal in his Majesty's service. They must consider, with
reference to _ that illustrious person, that it was almost
impossible for the Houie to come to a resolution speci-
fically• naming the Illustrious Duke ; because it would be
impossible that such a resolution could be considered other-
wise than a heavy ?ensure on the part of the Ilouse.—( Hear,
hear.) He had gathered from the observations of the Hon.
Member for Lancashire, that there were persons disposed to
come forward to give evidence before the Committee, to show
that his Royal Highness's opinions: were totally repugnant to
to the formation of Cirange.lodges in the army ; and he un-
derstood from the Hon. Member for Brecon, that 'his Royal
Highness had himself -made a declaration to that effect. Now
he ( Lord John Russell) should not be disposed to coma to
any resolution touching at all the conduct of any individual, if
it 'could be said that that individual had not been fully heard in
any defence or explanation he might wish to make.—( Hear.)
He thought, with regard to his Royal, Highness the Duke of
Cumberland, the opportunity of explanation bad not been
fairly afforded.—(Hear.) - Whether or not they should come
to any more thl-t a generr..ll resolution at all urou the subject,
he might perhaps be disposed to qudstioa ; but with resppet
4to a resolution such as that to which he was referring, he ,must
I say that without giving furtjior notico, so that his hoyal

Highness might be aware of the motion, and of the dis-
cussion which had taken place, and of the way in which
his conduct as Grand Master of these societies had been
spoken of, it would be impossible for him to agree to such a
resolution.—( Cheers.) With that opinion, therefore, saying
at once that he was ready to agree to the resolutions, as far
as they related to the constitution of Orange lodges, and to
the introduction of these lodges into the army, he should be
disposed to suggest that the remainder of the debate be post-
poned for some days—( Hear, hear)—in order that if any evi-
dence should be tendered before the Committee of which the
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Lancashire was the Chair-
man, the Committee should have the opportunity of receiving
it, and of•reporting it to the House. With respect generally
to the evidence which related to the army, he understood the
Hon. Gentleman to state that that evidence was fully closed,
and therefore be should have no objection to agree to certain
resolutions, or an address to his Majesty founded upon that
evidence, provided that those resolutions or that address re-
lated not to the conduct of any individual, but to the more
general subject—to the manner in which the Orange societies
affected the peace of Ireland—to the manner in which they
affected and weakened the authority of the Crown--and to
the manner in which they disturbed the course of justice.—
(Cheers.) Well, indeed, might the last be made an object
of inquiry, when it was admitted by one of the officers of the
society, that money had been sent down to defend prisoners—
against what? Against a Government prosecution.—( Cheers)
But with respect to that part of the subject—a vary grave and
important part of it—containing, as it did, one of those many
rocts of evil from which the miseries of Ireland had spread so
fast and so - far ever the whole surface of her soil—with re-
spect to that part of the subject, he would then only say, that
at another time he thought probably in the next session, it
would become the matter of debate, and of the most anxious
consideration in a House of Parliament anxious to maintain the
authority of that House, to preserve the force of the laws, and
to preserve the people themselves from contamination and dis-

hoiour.
Mr. W. PATTEN, amidst loud cries of " Adjourn," made •
a few observations in explanation, as we understood of the
course be had taken.
Mr. HUM entirely concurred in the propriety and justice
of the Noble Lord's proposition.
The question that the debate be adjourned till Thursday
next was then put,' and members flocked to the door tO leave
the House, under the supposition that no opposition would be
offered to the proposition. In the midst of the noise and con,.
fusion, however,
Sir ROBERT PEEL was anxious to state very shortly the
view which he had taken of the question previous to the speech
of the Noble Lord, because, if the debate were adjourned till
Tuesday next, he might not have an opportunity of expressing
his opinion upon the subject at all. He must state. in the
outset that, notwithstanding what has been stated by the Noble
Lord, be was still disposed to adhere to his previously formed
opinion. He understood that the object of the Special Report
was to obtain the evidence given before the Committee
relating exclusively to the existence of Orange Lodges
in the army. It appeared, however, that the Committee
had found a difficulty in confining the selection of the
evidence to that point only, and the consequence was, that
they had presented a Report generally of the evi- -
dance which had been taken, and in which Report of evi-
dence there was much of civil matter mixed up with the mili-
tary question. Still his impression was, that the point they
had to consider was the existence of Orange lodges in the
army, and he thought it would have been infinitely better if
the resolutions moved by the Hon. Gentleman, and the de-
bate which ensued upon them, had been confined exclusively
to the military questiori; because, if evidence were to he had
upon the subject generally, it appeared to be premature to
enter into any resolution when the whole of that evidence was
not before the House. His construction of the resolUtion
moved by the Hon. Member for Middlesex was different from
that of the Noble Lord (Russell.) He thought that the first .
six or seven resolutiOns referred to the institution of Orange
lodges in connection with the question of military discipline.
--(Hear, hear, hear.) [Lord John Russell here made an
intimation to the Right Hon. Baronet, but in a tone of voice
which did:not reach the gallery.) Sir Robert Peel continued ;
If he objected to the House voting the preliminary resolu-
tions, it was an objection founded upon principle, and not
upon any party view of the subject.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
Those preliminary resolutions consisted merely of an asser-
tion of mere matters of fact, without expressing any opinion,
without stating that it was expedient that any law should be
introduced upon the subject to which they referred, without
stating that it was requisite that the Attorney-General should
be directed to institute any prosecution against any party, or to
take any step on any subject; yet those resolutions, so expres-
sive of nothing, were -to be communicated by the House to
the King. Now that appeared to him to be a perfectly novel
course.—(Hear, hear.) What could the Crown do? It
could not say that it acquiesced in the opinion of the House,
because the HoUse had expressed none.---( Hear.) He should
have thought that the Noble Lord, and others the most hostile
to Orange lodgei, would have•pretested against such a course
es a very imperfect and inefficient one.--( Hear, hear.) If the
.Noble Lord meant to say that it was necessary to have preli.
minary resolutions explanatory cf the Orange Society, as a
ground-work for other resolutions, that, to a certain extent,
would diminish his objection ; but at the same time, he would
recommend that such preliminary resolutions should be as
brief as possible. It was perfectly indifferent to him what
course the House teak upon the subject ; but he repeated
that the course proposed to be pursued appeared to bins to be
perfectly novel, and by no means convenient: At all events,
he hoped, before the House affirmed the resolutions, it would
at least he quite certain of the 'accuracy of the facts on which
they were founded.—( Hear.) [Here some interruption was
offered.l " I urn speaking," said the Right Hon. Baronet,
"to the Ileuse ;—if the Hen. Gentleman is tired, lie may re-
tire.—(ltear, hear.) Ho has no right to interrupt me.—
(Hear, hear.) I say at once that I. do not mean to take ad-
vantage of the circumstance of several Members having left
the House under an impression that no division would take
place. No man has a right to say that lam anxious to take
an unfair advantage. I never have taken an unfair advantage
of the House, and I never will. I say, therefore, at once, that
it is not my intention to make any such objection to the pro-
position of the Noble Lord as shall end in a division—conse-
quently any Gentleman who is tired of the discussion may re-
tire." The Right Hon. Baronet continued to observe that, hav-
ing expressed his opinion with respect to the civil and general
part of the question, he came next to the military part of it,
and to the connection of Orange Lodges with military disci- '
pline. He had no hesitation whatever in condemning the in-
stitution of Orange Lodges in the army in as strong terms as
any man the most opposed to them.—( Hear.) He believed
that the existence of those separate societies—especially if they
were of a secret character—unknown to the officers of those
branches of the army in which they were instituted—he be-
lieved, he said, the existence of such a system to be eubvere
give of all military discipline—(Cheers)—and that it either
led to or followed the formation of other institutions of a secret
and political character.—( Hear.) He cared not by what
name secret political societies might be known; it was im-
possible to defend their existence in the army.—( Cheers.)
Entertaining that opinion, he thought it probable that the
Noble Lord would have proposed that they should present
the evidence which had been taken upon the subject to the
Crown, and that then they should address the Crown, pray-
ing it to institute an inquiry into the Orange Lodges in the
army. Ile should have been perfectly ready to acquiesce in
such a proposition. The House ought to exercise a great
deal of circumspection before it pledged itself to resolutions,
founded upon facts said to exist, but which had not been fully
proved to exist. Proceeding upon erroneous data, always
tended to lower the character of the House. He maintained that
as yet they had no means of knowing whether the facts re-
ported in the resolutions were true. When he was called upon
to affirm a variety of facts, with respect to thirty or forty regi-
ments, he felt that he ought to have some stronger evidence
than any which had yet been afforded, to convince the House
that its proceedings would not be open to objection on the
ground of inaccuracy.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The course lie
should have been disposed to acquiesce in was this:—Ho
should have been perfectly ready to vote for a resolution de-
scriptive of the constitution of Orange societies, as the ground-
work for some subsequent resolution, which should answer .
every purpose contemplated by the first resolutions moved by
the Hon. Gentleman opposite-( Mr. Hume.) He then should
have been perfectly prepared to acquiesce in a motion that an
humble address be presented-to his Majesty, praying that his
Majesty would be graciously pleased, not only to direct his
Royal attention (this was rather anew form of address) to the
;subject, but that he would be graciously pleased to cause an
immediate
.inquiry to be made into the nature and extent of
Orange societies in the army.
Mr. HUME—That would have been dictation.:—(Hear,
and laughter.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL : The Hon. Gentleman is highly
sensitive as to the mode in which the Crown should be ad-
dressed.—( Laughter.) I was not aware that the terms in
which I was expressing myself could be construed into a dic-
tation to the Crown. However, if ever I hear any reflection
cast on the Hon. Gentleman for want of loyalty or decorum,
I shall-always bear testimony to the fact, that when I proposed
that the Crown should be asked to institute an enquiry, the
Hon. Gentleman very significantly shook his head and said,
" No, no; that would be dictation."--(Great laughter.) The
Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded to observe, that though
he was prepared to acquiesce in a motion calling for an inquiry
into the mode in which the warrants of the Orange lodges had
been conveyed into the different regiments, he should have
objected in that stage of the proceedings to any special refe-
rence to the conduct of his Royal Highness the Duke of
Cumberland. At the same time he did not wish to except
that illustrious individual from the fullest inquiry, either be-
fore the Committee or any other tribunal before which his
conduct might be impugned. He thought that the assertion
of the Noble Lord (Russell) upon that point was perfectly
well founded ; and that it was impossible to name an indi-
vidual in a resolution of the . kind which had been pro •
posed to the House without implying censure.—( Hear,
hear.) To imply censure on his Royal Highness, in that
state of the inquiry, would not be consistent either with jus—
tice or equity. At the same time he must say that be thought
the course proposed to be taken by the Noble Lord
was partly open to the very same dejection that the Noble
Lord.had himself taken to -the .Resolution in which the Illus-
trious Duke was mentioned. The Noble Lord proposed a
short adjournment of the question, as if it were expressly for
the purpose of allowing the Illustrious Duke an opportunity of
vindicating himself. It the adjournment of the debate were •
to take place upon the ground that the inquiry was; not ye,:
complete, he (Sir Robert Peel) should not, object
Noble Lord
H
trutstietd that that
adjournrasthesigierociuilcandilyonotuvittihcea
}sun .ground that theaothi(l)
Illustrious
rDe utlkwe schoonilduldititicaev,e
aalunocupiplteerdtuinnit
tiftohethpeleiasmpedgeeing is i
dna of censure upon. the Illustrious Duke, and therefore was
open to the same objection that, he Neble Lord had taken to
the Resolution.—( Hear.) He should not oppose the adjourn-