The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-24 00:00:00

the surplusage of Church property. It was a principle dis-
approved of by the last Parliament, and would be alike inju-
rious to the clergy and the people if adopted by the pre-
sent. He could not, therefore, conceive how any Hon. Mem-
bers 'who supported the measure of the preceding session,
could give their support to the measure of this session. He
considered that there could be no peace in Ireland until the
question of appropriation should be satisfactorily settled, and
the people relieved from the support of a sinecure Church,
in the tenets of which they did not believe. Until that great
question was set at rest all other attempts to settle the subject
were mere trifling with it. It was on these grounds that he
and those who acted with him deemed it better to forego all

immediate opposition to the present resolution, and waive their
intentions respecting it until the whole question should come
under consideration on Monday next. The people of England
had no question more at heart than the question of Irish tithes ;
and it was in vain for the Government to suppose that there
would be either peace in Ireland or satisfaction in England
until it was finally and satisfactorily settled. As the Right
Bon. Baronet had intimated his intention to be merely to bring
in the Bill and give its details, n©t to advance it a single stage
further until the discussion of Monday should have terminated,
he (Mr. H.) would, as he had said, waive all opposition to the
resolutions, and content himself with simply entering his pro-

test against the principle of the measure.
Mr. GISBORNE put a question to Sir R. Peel, which we
could not catch ; in answer to which,
Sir R. PEEL said that if the House affirmed the resolu-
tions his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland would
he enabled to bring in the Bill, with the clauses respecting
the non-payment of the instalments due at present by the
clergy to the Treasury, and remission of that amount, together
with the apportionment of the residue of the million, 370,0001.
If the resolutions were not passed the Bill would have no
groundwork. The instalments were now due of the clergy,
and the Treasury would be obliged to enforce the repayment
if there was any suspension of the resolutions. He, therefore,
thought the best course the House could take was to allow the
-resolution to pass. By the Standing Orders no money could
be granted out of Committee, and to grapt it in Committee
there was due and proper notice required. All the forms in
the present instance had been complied with, and, therefore,
he should suggest to the House to permit the resolution to
pass. On Wednesday or Thursday the Bill could be intro-
duced in its complete shape and printed for the use of Hon.
Members.
Mr. O'CONNELL should not oppose the passing of the
,
resolution, as it went to procure a positive good, however
trifling in amount, to the people of Ireland. His own opinion
was decidedly in favour of the remission of the million ; for
the reason that it would have the effect of preventing the
clergy levying on their parishioners for that amount. He
would, therefore, take it pro tanto, as a small advantage for
the people of Ireland. The Government had no option but
to recover the sum advanced unless the House affirmed the
resolutior. The clergy would levy as he had said for the
means of repaying it. This would produce resistance, and
resistance would produce the usual deplorable results. Having
slid so much on the only part of the measure which had his
approval he should speak a few words on other parts which he
most unequivocally condemned. He implored the House to
consider for a moment and then ask themselves how much good
the measure was calculated to do for Ireland ? Absolutely
none. How did it stand? The landlord, by tithes being
made a rent-charge on his property, became liable to the pay-
ment. The clergymman applied to him in the first instance,
and if lie refused to pay the case was transferred to the Ec-
clesiastical Commission. But suppose the landlord should
acceed to the clergyman's demands, how were matters cir-
cumstanced? A double power was placed by that means in his
hands—the power of a landlord and the power of a tithe-
owner. The single power of a tithe-owner only was vested in
the Ecclesiastical Commission. What would be the effect of
this union of powers? By the Act of the Noble Lord, the Mem-
ber for Lancashire ( Stanley) the occupants of sm ill holdings
were exempt from the payment of tithes. By the operation of
the principle of the Bill about to be introduced to the House
this beneficial provision would be practically repealed, and
the poorer classes of tenants and occupiers would be thrown
completely under the power of the landlord. By this Bill the
landlord would have a double power of distraint—as landlord
and as tithe-agent for the rent charge. He could then
come in for tithes while he avowed for rent, and vice versa.
No question could be raised on his exercise of that power, as
a man having two rights of recovery can go upon oath, and
the Courts of Law would not interfere. Then the lowest de-
scription of tenantry would be placed completely under the
lash of the landlord. It might be urged that the Bill gave
one comfort to the occupant, for that if the landlord did not
pay there could be no distraint ; but that was all idle, for a
power of recovery of some description or other should be
vested in the Ecclesiastical Commission to make the exercise
of their power in the least available for the purposes of their
creation ; and as no other mode was so effectual as distraint,
and as no other party than the occupant "would in such case
suffer, it was all the same to him in whose hands it was placed.
He would warn the House to pause before they sanctioned
the principle of conferring a double power on the landlord,
and indirectly abrogating the Act of the Noble Lord the
Member for Lancashire. He would warn them against fur-
ther goading on a people who were opposed not so much to
the pecuniary amount of tithe as to the obnoxious nature of
the exaction. The finest army in the world were found in-
efficient for the collection of tithes in Ireland, yet the Go-
vernment proposed to transfer to the landlord and the Eccle-
siastical Commission that which that army had not the power
to do. It was out of the question to say that any regulation
would be effective, any measure final, for Ireland which had
not for its principle appropriation. A certain portion of the
landlords of Ireland, it was true, of a congenial feeling with
the Government and the clergy, had offered to collect the
tithes themselves. But did they forget that resistance to tithe
first generated resistance to rent, and caused the Rockite-
Whiteoy disturbance and the agrarian war which desolated
that unhappy country for many years ? It was only coming
forward with a stimulus to agitation and perpetuating discord
in that country. With respect to the entire tenor and purport
of the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet he protested
against it, as not holding out the slightest hopes of the imme-
diate or even ultimate pacification of Ireland. In Scotland
the people were circumstanced similar to Ireland ; but they
fought for their religious freedom, and ultimately achieved it.
Their support was purchased at the period of the revolution
by the abolition of the Church of England, and the establish-
ment of one in its stead identical with the religion of the
people. The people of Ireland did not want to go so far;
they stopped short at the next stage to it. He had felt it to
be his duty to protest even in liniine against the measure of the
• Government. It was not final ; it was not complete ; it would
give no satisfaction to the people of Ireland, and little to the
people of England, and it was by no means a realization of the
hopes held out in the King's Speech on the opening of the
prsent Parliament.
Mr. GISBORNE had a strong objection to the course sug-
gested by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. He had come
forward with his measure in a manner precisely similar to that
adopted by the late Government in the last session ; yet on
that occasion the course they pursued, and which lie pursued
now, had been attacked by him and his party. He (Mr. Gis-
borne) thought the most cuivenient course which the House
could adopt would be to permit the Right Hon. Baronet to
withdraw his resolution, which, as he himself had stated,
pledged him to ncthing, and which all agreed meant nothing,
and to allow him to introduce a Bill founded upon a prelimi-
nary resolution of the House.
Sir R. PEEL said that if the House objected to the course
he was pursuing, he should certainly not persevere ; but until
it had expressed itself to that effect, be could not consent to
the suggestion of the Hon. Member.—( Hear.) The rearon
he had withdrawn the resolution on a former night was the
want of proper notice. He thought it would be more satisfac-
tory to the House to sec the Bill in a complete state before
the 30th of March, which was his reason for bringing on the
resolution so soon. If lie acceded to the Hon. Member's sug-
gestion of a preliminary resolution, that could not be effected ;
for he well remembered that when Lord Althorp in the last
Parliament brought forward the Church Temporalities Bill, it
fell to the ground, though several stages advanced, in conse-
quence of his a.qceding to a similar suggestion.--( Hear.) He
did not then mean to enter on the subject of the measure ; but
he begged to say that he thought those details which had been
gone into by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin would
have been better reserved for a debate on the principle of
.the
Bill he proposed to introduce, or in Committee on it.
Mr. WA RBURTON was of opinion that it would be better
to withdraw the resolution, as it affirmed nothing, and intro-
duce the Bill either without the money clauses, or having them
in a separate form.
Sir R. PEEL could not consent to the proposition of the
Hon. Member, as by adopting it the Bill would be rendered
quite imperfect.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that the measure of the Govern.
merit had his strongest reprobation ; for it brought the small
holdings of pauper occupants under the levy of tithes. Pre-
viously to the passing of the Act of the Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for Lancashire's potato gardens, not larger than the floor
of the House, were tithed at ten shillings : and in the attempt
to enforce small claims of that description the Rev. Mr. Fer-
gusson had lost his life. The present measure went virtually
to renew this obnoxious impost. Did the Government, he
would ask. mean to deceive the people of Ireland, when they
told them that they should pay tithe no longer, hut that they
should only pay a rent charge? What did the people of Ireland
care by what name it was called, while it existed ? He could
assure the House and the Government that the organization
against the obnoxious impost was so perfect among the people
of Ireland, that even if the entire force of the empire was put
in requisition, tithes could not be collected any longer. The
Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had said, in pi aise of the
humanity of the Clergy, that he had only thirty or forty
applications for military assistance in the collection of
tithes during his very short residence in Ireland. Was that,
he (Mr. O'Connor) would ask, a proof of humanity ? Only
thirty or forty applications for military aid from Clergymen I
An opportunity was now afforded to the House to relieve
Ireland, and he trusted that the House would avail themselves
of it. The composition of tithes in Ireland bad been made
when wheat was 645. a quarter; and now, although the price
of wheat was so much fallen, they pretended that it was an
adequate relief to Ireland to take off only 25 per cent. of the
tithes. The Bill now proposed, with the exception of sur-
rendering the million, would be received with disgust by the
people of Ireland. He had never witnessed any forbearance
on the part of the Clergy, and he was convinces that nothing
but the direct intimidation by the people had had any effect on
the Clergymen of Ireland. But the Right Hon. Baronet had
left out of the Bill all consideration of the lay impropriator.
The landlord would put all the boon in his own pocket. He
looked-tOilhamuestion rather as a question of disturbance
between' ttc..e.Totr,trnment within and the Government without
that Houses Ho bad himself laid the foundation of the
organisation against tithes.—( Hear, from the Ministerial
benches.) All balm@ was now associated against tithes, and
the Right Han. Baroziiit would find himself unable to dissolve

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