The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-04 00:00:00

1111 E SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JULY 4, 1835.

that the funds were not applied to the purposes for which the
were originally given, or to purposes to which they might ba
devoted with very beneficial effect. It was, therefore, the opi-
nion of himself and his colleagues that some controlling and
superintending power should exist, for the purpose of causing
the funds to be rightly and directly applied. It was not, how-
ever, expedient that any provision to that effect should be in-
troduced' into the present clause, which went simply to the
extent of giving the new Corporations the power of appoint-
ing trustees for the management of the funds.
Mr. GOULBURN thought that it would be better to
postpone the clause.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL hoped that his Noble
Friend would not agree to any such proposal.
Mr. HARDY wished to know whether, under the term
" charitable funds" was comprehended the patronage of livings ?
If so, the disposition of livings in the Church of England
might fall into the hands of those who were not connected
with the Establishment. There was in the bands of the Cor-
poration of Leeds certain patronage of that kind, and he wished
to know how it would be affected ?
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES repeated the same question,
and said that a considerable sum of money had been left to the
Corporation of Oxford for the establishment of forty lecturers
in that city, resident clergymen of Oxford. He did not
know whether the clause was intended to apply to that
property ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was understood to ob-
serve, that the clause did not embrace church patronage.
Mr. H. HUGHES said, that much attention had been
drawn to the clause in reference to its application to church
patronage. It made the trustees individually responsible, in-
deed ; but the members or the town council, who appointed
them trustees, were not required to have any qualification. He
could not see what objection could be entertained to the ad-
dition of the mayor, recorder, and magistracy, to the body of
fifteen trustees who were to be appointed by the council.
There were twenty-two charities in the city of Oxford, some
of whose funds were left for the specific purpose of being en-
joyed by members of the Church of England. The mayor and
recorder were more likely to be of that Church than even
the members of the town council, who would probably be
many of other persuasions.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not understand that the
Church patronage came under the denomination of charitable
funds.
Mr. ESTCOURT asked what would then become of the
Church patronage of Corporations?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that the new Corporations
would have the same power of dealing with them as the pre-
sent Corporations possessed. As to the objection of the pa-
tronage of the Established Church being thus placed in the
hands of persons not connected with it, it must be well known
to Hon. Gentlemen that at present, since the repeal of the
Test and Corporation Acts, a Corporation in which there was
no Church of England man, might dispose of Church property
exactly as it was disposed of by a Corporation consisting wholly
of Church of England men.
Mr. HARVEY said, that however much Hon. Gentlemen
might differ upon political matters, they were all agreed on
this point, that the funds of charities ought to be strictly and
properly applied. As the clause stood at present, it was liable
to a serious objection. The number of trustees was to be 1
5 ;
but in some small boroughs, possessing nevertheless very large
charities, there might be only 15 Councillors, and those Coun-
cillors might elect themselves as trustees, unless some provi-
sion against such an arrangement were introduced. He thought
that unless some separate power of control was exercised over
the trustees themselves, the same abuses would arise as at pro-.
sent existed.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL repeated the statement which he
made upon the clause when first proposed, that it was in his
opinion desirable that some such power of control over the
administration of all charities should exist. It was a ques-
tion to be decided, whether members of the Town Council
should be disqualified from serving as trustees. He thought
it might be found inconvenient so to exclude members of the
Town Council, for among them might be found many very
well able to perform the duties of the office. The general
subject to which the provision in question referred, merely in
part had been of late brought before the House to a consider-
able extent, both by the Hon. Member for Southwark him-
self, and a Noble and Learned Lord in another place. He
had been informed by his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord
Brougham) that it was his intention immediately to intro-
duce a Bill for the purpose, so far as education was con-
cerned, of establishing a central board, which should have
the control and supervision of all those charities established
for purposes of education, and should be invested with such
powers as would enable them to apply the funds of those cha-
rities in a manner conformable to the purposes for which they
were originally granted. He did not think it expedient to in-
troduce any clause similar in its effect, as regarded charities
connected with Corporations, to the provisions of the Bill of
his Noble Friend with respect to those applicable. to educa-
tion ; but he was strongly of opinion that before long Parlia-
ment would be inclined to take up this subject. For his own part
be was prepared to second and support any measure proposed
by the Government, with a view of effecting the object to
which he had alluded ; or, if no measure were proposed to
Parliament on the subject, he should be himself ready to con-
sider what measure ought to be brought forward for the pur-
pose of effecting a general, efficient, and intelligent control
over funds directed to be applied to charitable uses.—( Hear,
hear.) The Bill introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir
R. Peel), with regard to endowed schools in Ireland, and un-
der which a central Board of control had been established in
Dublin, was, in his opinion, a model of legislation on this sub-
ject. In conclusion, he had only to say that he hoped, before
long, to see a Bill introduced for the accomplishment of those
objects to which he Lad briefly alluded.---( Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL apprehended that all were agreed as to the
two objects to be effected with respect to these charities : first,
that their funds should be applied, or, as nearly as possible,
to the purposes for which they were orginally intended ; and
next, that these funds should not be perverted to Parliamen-
tary or electioneering purposes.—( Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") All parties, then, having the same object in view,
the question was, how their joint intentions might be best
carried into effect ? He fully admitted that station, pro-
perty, and respectability in the trustees were not necessarily
guarantees for the observance of the responsibility which
they incurred. Persons were always found willing to un-
dertake the performance of the duties imposed by these trusts;
and the higher the station of those who were appointed to
fill them the more numerous, in frequent. instances, were
their avocations, and, consequently, the greater their inability
to pay that full attention to all the details and complicated
concerns of these. charitable bodies, which was absolutely ne-
ces.ary to the fulfilment of the trust.--(Hear, hear.) He
might, he thought, go a step further and express his belief
that a system of popular election or control would not ensure
the due execution of the duties connected with these trusts.--
(Hear, hoar, from the Opposition). He did not wish to un-
dervalue the advantages resulting from popular control in
effecting some desirable objects. He believed that popular
control would induce the Town Council to administer the
funds of the Corporation properly; that it would insure an
economical expenditure in the disbursements for paving, light-
ing, and all such matters of a local nature. He was willing
to concede to popular control, that it should secure the proper
discharge of the duties imposed on the officers appointed
under the intended corporate bodies : but with respect to cha-
rities, he did not think it essential to the just and legitimate
distribution of their funds.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposi-
tion.) Party feelings must find their way into the proceed-
ings and decisions of the new bodies ; and when patronage
was to be distributed, and good places given away, they were
warranted in supposing that partiality would have its sway,
and that abuses would prevail under them. He very much
doubted whether family partialities did not cause many
more local divisions than any difference of opinion as to
great political principles.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Southwark proposed, and the
Noble Lord appeared to assent to his proposition, that there
should be instituted some central and general Commission,
which might exercise a superintending. authority over all
these charities. He did not deny that in some cases a su-
perintending Commission might do some good ; but he very
much doubted whether the appointment of one to watch over
the distribution of existing charities would be attended with
the advantages which the Noble Lord seemed to anticipate.
These charities were generally granted by individuals, to be
applied to some specified purpose, for local and individual
benefit. Now, the management of such funds must naturally
rest with those who are resident at the place in which they
were to be distributed.—( Hear, hear.) A superintending
Board might very well direct the mode in which the accounts
of charitable bodies should be kept, or originate the appoint-
ment of trustees ; but as these charities were strictly local, as
different objects were contemplated by the establishment of
each of them, as they were held in trust by different persons
and different bodies of persons, the immediate direction sand

superintendence of thcnimust be local. And no Board sit.

ting in London could determine whether they were applied
to the proper personal purposes which they were originally
meant to answer.—( Hear.) All the knowledge whic the
details connected with such funds called for, required local and
individual management, and imposed upon the Government
the necessity of leaving them to the management of local
authorities, to be constituted in some way or other. The Noble
Lord had alluded to a Bill he had brought in with respect to
endowed schools in Ireland, and argued that because he had
appointed, under that Bill, a central board in Dublin, he was
favourable to the formation of a similar body to watch over the
distribution of the funds of the various charities throughout the
country. The cases, however, were very different. These
endowed schools were, in Ireland, spread over the whole
country, and it was very easy for a Board sitting in Dublin to
exercise a superintendence over schools all established on the
same royal foundation, to direct the amount of salary to be
paid to the masters of them, and to watch over their general
management ; but it did not follow that a Board appointed in
Dublin to direct the distribution of the funds of the numerous

charities in Ireland could attempt to answer the object of their
establishment with any prospect of success.—( Hear, hear.)
He was very much afraid that they were proceeding to legis-
late with respect to these charities without sufficient informa-

tion.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He had hoped
(and he would certainly suggest it to him) that the Noble
Lord would, before they took any step in the settlement of
this question, have appointed a Select Committee for the
purpose of making a Report to the House on the nature of the
charities connected Kith Corporations. lie thought that some
scheme must be devised by which a provisional arrangement
must be entered into, before the clause with regard to chari-

tics supposed to be connected with the Corporations, could be
carried into operation.—(Hear, hear.) The freemen were,
by this Bill, about to be extinguished ; in what manner were
these funds, left exclusively for their advantage, to he in fu-
ture applied ?—(llcar, from the Oppo,iition.) By the great
revolution which was about to be effected in Corporations, the
:ics trustees would find it exceedingly gillicult to administer
them according to the original intentioo of the. don.4s. This

iangerous question would also be raised by it, " What is cor-
porate, and what is charitable property ? Now he thought
it would comparatively be a very easy matter for nine or eleven
gentlemen first to give a general view of the different trusts,
to distinguish between those which should be considered only
corporate property and those which were detached from the
Corporation, and determine by what scheme they might be
applied, as strictly as possible, to their original purposes,—
( Hear, hear.) He would, at all events, recommend the Noble
Lord to erase that clause by .which every person is prevented
from being a charitable trustee, under the new Bill, who is
not a burgess.—( Hear, hear.) There were many respectable
clergymen and gentlemen who were perfectly well qualified
to become trustees in charities, but who had no desire to mix
in local politics or differences, and who would, therefore, be
unwilling to become enrolled as burgesses.—( Hear, hear.)
He would not hesitate in going the length of saying that the
man who had no direct interest either in electioneering .or mu-
nicipal purposes, would be far the most likely man to use
his exertions towards the fair and honest application of cha-
ritable funds.—( Hear, hear.) He begged, in conclusion, to
impress on the mind of the Noble Lord opposite, that such
a transfer of trust as this Bill effected, should not be made
without due consideration and on the fullest information.
There was in one city (we did not catch the name) so large
a sum as 18,0001. a-year disbursed annually under charitable
trusts. How did they, mean to deal with such property,
which must prove a blessing or a curse, according as it was
well or ill applied?—( Hear, hear.) It would, he thought, be
most desirable, if the Noble Lord should not consent to the
postponement of the question of charitable trusts until the
House was in possession of the knowledge which would enable
them to legislate properly on the subject, that he should agree
to leave the farther consideration of this and three or four
other clauses which referred to charities, until the other pro-
visions of the measure were disposed of.--( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL quite agreed with the Right Hon.
Gentleman that those persons who were best qualified to be
trustees of charities would not perhaps wish to become bur-
gesses. He would, therefore, consent to strike out that part
which required the trustee of any charity to be a burgess.—
( Hear, hear.) With respect to the appointment of a Com-
mission to which the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded, if he
thought that appointment could lead to any practical result, he
should not hesitate to accede to the motion ; but he did not at
present see that it would be attended with any such effect. If
the Right Hon. Baronet wished to have the clause postponed
to Monday, with a view to make any favourable alteration in
it, he would not object to its being postponed.
Sir R. PEEL cculd not hold out any such hope to the
Noble Lord. Now, one word more with respect to a Com-
mission. He thought that much more good might be effected
by the appointment of some person attached to one of the
offices of state, who would give constant reports to Parliament
of the mode in which the duties of those invested with charita-
ble trusts were fulfilled, than by the establishment of any cum-
brous Commission.—( Hear, hear.) Instead of dividing the
Government of the country into a variety of commissions, it
was his decided opinion that when any increase of its func-
tions was rendered necessary for such an object as that of
watching over the management of charitable uses, that some
person should be attached to one of the departments connected
with some of the responsible Ministers of the Crown, by which
course all the expense of a Commission would be saved, and
the danger of having such practices carried on under the
countenance of such a body as might escape the observation
of Parliament, avoided.—( Hear, hear.) He would throw out,
therefore, a suggestion, the adoption of which would save a
ten-fold degree of expense, that a clerk should be added
to those of the Treasury or Home Office, who should have the
direction of these charitable funds, and should have part of his
time employed in some other business if it should happen not
to be wholly en ;aged by the duties imposed on him.--( Hear,
hear.) He diehope, therefore, that the Government would
give up- the idea of appointing any Commission, but would see
that the duties of such a body should be performed by some
person in the office and under the control of some responsible
Minister of the Crown.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUME hoped that the clause would not be postponed.
He was sure that a clerk would never be able to watch over the
proceedings and control the management of the charitable
trusts of the country. Therefore he hoped that instead of mul-
tiplying the number of persons engaged in the departments of
the Government, they would, where it was found necessary,
appoin‘t such a body as might be expected to watch with due
care over the expenditure of thousands and millions of pro-
perty invested in charitable trusts.--( Hear, hear.)
Sir M. RIDLEY moved the following amendment:—
"Provided also, and be it further enacted, that nothing in this
Act shall extend, or be construed to extend, to alter, abridge,
or take away the right to any premises, hereditaments,
land. or funds, which may now be the private property of
any incorported company :in any borough, whose title to
such property is independent of the existing Corporation of
such borough, and which such company may hold under
ancient charters, confirmed by Crown grants, long usage,
testamentary bequest, or Parliamentary enactment, to and for
the particular use and benefit of the members of such incorpo-
rated company."
Sir R. PEEL wished to be understood as not having spoken
of charities for the purposes of education, when ho adverted to
the appointment of a Commission.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL hoped that the clause
would be persisted in ; for though it was impossible to deny that
much greater difficulty existed in legislating on this subject, than
if these charitable trusts had been of late invested, still he trusted
that under the proposed system, all the beneficent purposes for
which they had been left would be fully answered.--(Hear. )
Mr. PEMBERTON was understood to argue that the pro-
posed transfer of charitable trusts would be a perversion of the
intentions of the original donors.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
would be much better to postpone the final consideration of
the clause, until a period when they might come better pre-
pared for the discussion upon it.
Mr. CRESSET PE L HAM was very desirous that the
question should be investigated by an impartial and efficient
tribunal ; and recollecting that some years ago a Commission
had sat for that purpose, he thought the labours of that Com-
mission might be made the ground-work of a renewed Com-
mission ; and among other objects, to avert the danger of the
hostile collision which might be apprehended in the transfer of
authority from one body to another.
Mr. HUME adverted to the manner in which, in Scotland,
trustees for the administration of similar trusts were appointed.
Of a body of twenty-one trustees, the council elected ten, and
the burgesses eleven. This formed a very efficient board of
control ; and perhaps the same principle might be applicable
in this country. He wished to throw out another suggestion.
It was frequently the case that the burgesses were not suf-
ficiently acquainted with the purpose for which charities had
been instituted. The whole of the accounts ought to be open
to general inspection, in order that it might be ascertained
whether or not the legitimate object of the charity was carried
into effect.
Mr. WHITTLE HARVEY observed that it might be
desirable to postpone the consideration of the clause, but that
it was obvious that the clause itself could not be altogether
dispensed with. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had
misunderstood him in one point. He had never stated or contem-
plated that all the charitable funds in the country should be in the
hands or under the control of a permanent board. All that he shg-
mted was, that there should be a permanent board of super-.
vision, to which the trustees of the different charities might
from time to time be amenable. But it never for a moment
occurred to him that the actual administration of all these
charitable trusts=thousands in number, and local in their cha-
racter—ought to be transferred from trustees on the spot, to a
board in London. With respect to the councils, in his opi-
nion neither should the members of them be altogether exclu-
ded from the trusts in question, nor, on the other hand, should
those trusts be exclusively composed of members of the council.
If from the trust all members of the council were excluded, the
consequence would be the creation of a formidable power in
every town much greater than the corporation. But he thought
that a provision might be made, that where there were fifteen
trustees, not more than seven or eight of them should be mem
bers of the council.

Lord J. RUSSELL deprecated further discussion of the
clause at the present moment ; and more especially with refe-
rence to the question of whether only a portion of the trustees
should be composed of members of the council,
Mr. CLAY could see no objection to making the members
of the council, ex officio, trustees. He wished for no limita-

tion in the choice of trustees.
Mr. ESTCOURT and Mr. WYNN each said a few words,
the purport of which we were unable to collect.
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES adverted to a charitable trust
of an ecclesiastical description at Oxford, and expressed his
apprehension that by the operation of the clause the charity
would revert to the donor, or would escheat to the Crown.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed (as we under-
stood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman) that the clause did
not apply to ecclesiastical charities.
Mr. SCARLETT, while he admitted that in small towns
it might be difficult to find persons, not members of the coun-
cil, who Were competent to be trustees, thought that in
large towns it would be highly expedient that the trustees
should not be exclusively members of the council.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved to substitute the word
" nine" for the word " fifteen."
The amendment was put and agreed to.
Various other verbal and explanatory amendments were
agreed to ; and eventually the clause, as amended, was ordered
to stand part of the Bill.
The clauses down to 62, verbal amendments being made,
and blanks being filled up, were also agreed to. On clause 62
(Council to become trustees of all acts, of which Corporations
were, ex officio, sole trustees) being read,
Colonel TRENCH asked whether it was the intention of
the Government to make any provision to prevent Roman
Catholics, who were councilmen, interfering with the patron-
age of the Established Church ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he was not disposed
to revive the penal code of Charles 11.

Colonel TRENCH said that a Corporation composed en-
tirely of Catholics might happen to arise, in which case some
provision ought to exist for the protection of the property be-
longing to the Church Establishment—( Hear, hear.) The
Lord might not wish to injure the Church ; but he was
ithnoeglitenool of a powerful giant--(Laughter)—whose slave er
victim he must be, and who, after using him for his own pur-
poses, would cast the Noble Lord and his colleagues (utterly
incapable as they were of wielding the Goveriimmt of the
country) under the feet of his party. Therefore, without re-
pealing past acts of liberality, he wished the property of the
Established Church to be protected, by its administration being
confided to Committees of the Councils (as we understood the
Hon. and Gallant Member) composed of Protestants only.
Lord JO IIN RUSSELL could only answer the question
by.
to lA,. ,:1..)11.-.,!ied law; whicl he though/ went fa
enough ail this

LAW said that-the effect of the presebt.Bill would be
ro nullify the 15th iectioli of the Eluaricip4ieu Act, prohibit-