The Sun.
London, England, 1835-09-03 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, SEPVEXISER °. • ,
BELFAST ELECTION.
Mr. GOULBURN rase to order, and objected ti tl e
Hon. Member reading the petition through, especially as :t
contained allegations against individuals whose conduct migl t
become a subject of enquiry before the House.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD was not gaing to read
the petition at length, he was only stating the ailegatioas.—
. (" Order, order.")
The SPEAKER reminded the Hon. Gentleman of the
other objection, and put it to the Hon. Member whether it
would be proper to present a petition calculated in any way to
prejudice a case which was likely to come before the House.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD was ready to submit to the decision
of the Speaker, and therefore would withdraw the petition.
The SPEAKER made some observations which were in-
audible in the gallery ; but
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he certainly would abide
by the opinion of the Speaker, and withdraw the petition. .
The petition was then withdrawn.
CORPORATION BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the Order of the
Day be read for resuming the consideration of the Lords'
amendments to the Municipal Reform Bill.
Mr. HUME postponed till Friday next the resolution of
which he had given notice, respecting the loan of fifteen mil-
lions contracted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL proposed now to take the post-
poned clauses. lie meant for the present to postpone
the preamble of the Bill, as he intended to Move
the omission of certain words introduced by the Lords, and he
would therefore proceed to the second clause. The first
amendment he meant to propose was, to leave .out the word
" unjust" as applied to depriving persons in Corporations of
their property ; and next he would move to leave out that part
of the amendment of the Lords, by which exemption from
toll was perpetuated to freemen, instead of being confined to
present freemen, and to place the clause in the some condition
in which it had left that House.—Agreed to.
The clause as amended was then agreed to.
Clause 8., which provides that no freeman shall be admitted
by gift or purchase, after some observations from the Arroa-
NEY-GENERAL and Sir. W. FOLLETT, and a few verbal amend-
ments, was also agreed to.
The clause with respect to town-clerks was also agreed to.
The amendments to the clauses up to II were agreed to
' without any observation.
On the I i th clause coming under consideration, the amend-'
ment to which was " for the purpose of enjoying the rights
conferred for the first time by this Act,"
Mr. WILKS said he had never seen such phfaseology in
any Act of Parliament..
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the words were necessary for
the purposes of a former amendment.— Agreed to.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the next clause which gave con.n.
cils the right of purchasing common lands had been struck
out—he was very sorry for it, but at present he would consent
to it in the hope of a future amendment.
Clauses 14 to 16 inclusive were then passed pro forma.
A Message from the Lords brought up the Tithes on Tor...
nipS Bill and other Bills.
Lord J. RUSSELL would offer no oppOsitiou to tile 17th
clause, as amended.
Mr. C. BULLER observed, that according to the original
clause the objector was to prove his objection to the officer
elected, a provision which had been done away by the amend.
merit.. He .suppcaed it was not of much use to stead out upon
this point, but he thought all these alterations ought trs
be noticed, in order that the country might be roused to exer-
cise a wholesome dissatisfaction, which .should enable this
House next year to get rid of all those defects.--( Hear.)
Mr. SC A lIL E TT—Then it would appear from the decla-
rations of Hon. Members opposite that they do not intend that
this measure should be final.--( Loud and repeated cheering
from the Ministerial side of the House.)
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 19 and 20 were agreed to, as well as Clause 21,
(the words " Councillor's" being left out,) and Clause 2e,
(the words " Councillor's roll" being left out.)
Lord J. RUSSELL then proposed to go to the 47th clause.
On clause 47 being proposed,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, the question svas whether
the qyalification should be a continuing qualification, or whe-
ther the person who was qualified having a bona fide qua-
lification at the time he qualified, should be consi-
dered afterwards hound to qualify according to the pro-
visions of the Act. He wished to state the question- as
fairly as possible, but there were groat difficulties in eitherpcist
of view. On the whole, however, he did not think thy
would be acting consistently if they allowed a person who
was once qualified to be so during the three years he would
be a Councillor. He should therefore propose, after the
owro rttilise tshvaotrdhsa,l,,b,evei
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ROBINSONmaking such deela
had n almost in
ration,oardurings his u
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continuancec rlobjectione
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Mr. to
flue introduction of these vvords. A tradesman miglic, render

himself obnoxious to a knot of individuals, who might sue him
by a joint-stock purse. How was a tradesman to know what
Lis property was at the time a party failed who owed him
looney ? That might be taken advantage of, and the man
ruined.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that if he conceded
himself to this qualification clause which had been introduced,
be must still say that he was of opinion it would be found to
deteriorate from the Bill. But if a qualification were intro-
duced, it appeared to him, as had been stated yesterday, when
the matter was discussed, that it would be altogether nugatory,
unless the qualification was one which was to be continuous.
He admitted the presence of the difficulty, but he said that
difficulty was one which resulted from the introduction of the
necessity of the question of qualification, and he felt that this
difficulty was ten fold enhanced by the present provision. This
was no new provision, because it was introduced into every
private Act, and he was told that in an Act of Parliament
which regarded the local government of the city of Worces-
ter, the very words proposed were used • such being the case,
he thought they were bound to put this clause into such a
state as should carry out his intention with the least possible
evil. It had been proposed yesterday to insert the words at the
time of making the declaration in reference to the qualification ;
if these words were so inserted, then the matter referred to the
qualification at the moment of the party establishing it. The
clause went on to say that if any person should act in any of the
capacities set forth without being- duly qualified, they should,
for every such offence, forfeit and pay the sum of 501. Now
whether such a proviso were right or wrong, he would not say ;
but it appeared to him to comprehend the liability of the par-
ties to continued offences; because if it were for life, they
could only offend once for all. Now an evil complained of
was that vexatious suits might be instituted against parties,
and that one man might say to another, "Oh, Mr. Smith, you
had 1,0001., perhaps, at the time of your taking office; but I
suspect you do not possess that now, and therefore you are
liable to heavy penalties for every act you have done since you
were worth that amount of property as a qualification." Now
he (the Solicitor-General) believed that the imagined evil of
these vexatious suits was one that did not happen once in 20
years. He proposed at another point of the clause, to insert
words to the effect that if a person should be qualified to serve
it should be competent for the party against whom proceed-
ings were threatened to call for, from the party instituting the
action, the Judge's order, and that the party should give secu-
rity fowthe costs ; that he should do so within fourteen days
after the notice being given of action ; and that, in the event of
a verdict, he should recover costs as between attorney and client.
Mr. WARBURTON said this was a security as far as it
went, but the suggestion did not go far enough. Now any
person might bring a suit under this clause, and he thought
that they ought to limit this class of actions against the per-
sons inculpated. Now if he looked to the Attorney-General
or the Solicitor-General, they could not be suspected of im-
proper bias, if this power were vested in them ; or if' it were
_the Hon. and Learned Member for Huntingdon, or the late
Solicitor-General (who differed from him widely in politics,)
he should, of' course, trust them implicitly; but by this clause
any informer might be put forward by a political party. Let
the time be limited within which these actions should be
brought. Again, if with any other functionaries than the
Attorney and Solicitor-General, it would be well, but let
them be the only parties to bring these actions.
After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP,
Mr. Sergeant WILDE said, sure he was that a bona fide
qualification was sought to be secured by the House of Lords.
He could not conceive that the House of Lords meant that the
qualification to be taken up should cease. The observation of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member. for Tamworth, made
on a former evening, was one which was most cogent with re-
gard to the disqualifying effect of this provision. He could see
no serious consequences as likely to arise from the clause as it
then stood. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then put the
case of a tradesman who, at the time of his taking up his qua-
lification, was possessed of 1,000/., but who might, perhaps,
have calculated even certain debts at 10s. in the pound, which
eventually turned out to be not worth ss. His property must
be, therefore, deteriorated ; and, in short, the operation of the
clause must be to allow or one party harrassing the irriividual
to an extent which could hardly be imagined. Again, he
thought it would be better to limit the penalties to less than
that now proposed—namely, 50/., for every act done when not
duly qualified, and that the action should be brought in a
shorter period than within three months after the commission
of the offence. This enactment might ruin a man. He trusted
that a bona fide qualification at the time of taking office would
be satisfactory to that House and to the House of Lords.
An Hox. Meamen would propose that the party bringing
the action should be a burgess of. the town in which the indivi-
dual resided also who should be charged with having acted
without a qualification ; and, also, that notice should be given
of such action fourteen days after an action should lie.
Mr. WARD thought that all that had occurred must have
convinced the House that the qualification clause involved them
more and more in difficulty. Let the. House modify it as they
would, it would hereafter be necessary to repeal it,
Mr. BARRETT LENNARD said, if property was to be
the test of qualification, was it not sufficient that the party was
possessed of it at the time of taking office ? They ought not
to subject men to this inquisitorial inconvenience, and he would
be sin party to such proceeding. Was not this,a new princi-
ple, that a man having once established his qualification should
be again compelled to show and prove it? To lay down such
a principle as that was intolerable and insulting. He would
further propose to strike out that part of the clause which gave
one-half of the penalty to the informer.
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought, with the Noble Lord, that
having consented to the introduction of the principle of qualifi-
cation, they ought to make it as good as possible ; but he
thought that they were making the clause worse than it origi-
nally was, in consequence of the amendment proposed by the
Hon. and Learned Attorney-General. He knew they could
not alter their own Bill ; but was it impossible to revise an act
of last night ? Now last night the Attorney-General had in-
troduced a declaration that it should be sufficient that a decla-

ration should be made at the time of a party coming to office.
Then it became necessary to insert further words, and thus
carry the clause further than was intended. Now if the
words proposed by the Attorney-General were omitted, the pro-
position of the Noble Lord was unnecessary with reference to
the continuance of the office. He thought the clause was
better as it formerly Steed than with this double amendment,
and that they had exaggerated the practical difficulty. At
the same time he would not say that he did not feel the force
of the observations of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. In
the first place, then, they found a corresponding provision in
many local Acts, and yet no advantage was taken of parties
for the purpose of raising vexatious prosecutions. The Hon.
and Learned Member for Newark seemed to apprehend the
consequences of retaliation in these cases, but he might de-
pend upon it that this provision would be an effectual check
upon it. Now, if a man claimed to be of the Town Council
because he was rated at 20/. a-year_(and this showed the ad-
vantage of a simple qualification), he was not subject to this
supposed annoyance; and they narrowed the sphere in which
prosecutions could be brought, because every man so qualified
would be exempt from such liability. The Hon. Member for
Bridport had spoken of political influence ; now he (Sir R.
Peel) had objected to the election of officers annually, because
such might be the consequence. But was there no danger of
occasional qualifications? He thought that they ought not to
diminish the penalties, and he contended that the principle
of qualification ought to be admitted. If, indeed, they could
diminish the chance of malicious prosecutions, so much the
better. Again, he thought it would be better to confine the
right of prosecution to the burgesses, who must be presumed
to be respectable. He wished to see the time within which an
action should be brought shortened; but they could not alter
their own Bill.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL should be most desirous
to waive his amendment if it was the pleasure of the House
that be should do so, but he denied that the clause as sent down
from the House of Lords would have been less objectionable
without it.

Mr. C. BULLER was opposed to the odious system of
establishing an inquisition into the property of individuals.
He thought if the parties were qualified in the first instance
that ought to be considered sufficient, and any accident which
subsequently occurred ought not to affect the qualification. If
a person's house which was rated at 301. were, after his
election, burned down, ought that to disqualify him ? He
should hereafter propose that the declaration that the party
was possessed of the qualification should be made once a year,
and that such a declaration should be final and sufficient.

Mr. BLACKBURNE had voted for the proposal made by
the Attorney-General, on the principle that the possession of
a qualification in the first instance would be sufficient.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the observations
which he heard suggested to him, to add to the amended
clause a proviso, to the effect that no such action shall be in-
stituted by any persons other than the burgesses of every
such borough, and also that notice shall be served on the de-
fendant within fourteen days after such offence, of the inten-
tion to bring such action. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man also proposed that an addition to the effect that if any
person shall by reason of not being so qualified in respect
of rating or estate, prove not to be qualified to act, &c., should
be introduced after the words—" If any Mayor, Alderman,
or Councillor shall act without having made the declara-
tion herein required, or without being duly qualified."

Mr. D. W. HARVEY said the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman's amendment was of no value whatever. His object
was to protect parties from vexatious prosecutions, by render-
ing it necessary that the informer shall be a burgess, and that
notice shall be given within 14 days after the alleged offence.
This would not protect persons from vexatious proceedings, as
all such informations would be of a party character, and there.
fore there would be no difficulty in getting a burgess to inform.
He did expect that the Hon. and Learned Member would, as
a greater protection against annoyance, have rendered it impe-
rative that the informer should within the 14 days give security
for costs in the event of the prosecution failing.

Mr. SCARLETT saw no difficulty in the amendment.

Mr. HAVES-was exceedingly dissatisfied with the qualifi-
cation altogether. He thought it would give rise to litigation.

Mr. BAINES asked the Noble Lord (J. Russell) and the
RigLt Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), as regarded the criterion
of qualification, whether a man holding a house of the actual
value of 901. should be entitled to vote if the house were not
rated at 30/. ? In some parishes the houses were rated at their
actual value, but in others they were only rated at one-fourth,
which would exclude from the right of voting a party in pos-
session of a house really of the value of treble the amount of
qualification.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Hon. Member's question ap-
plied to a principle already decided. The principle of rating
was fixed on as the more Eimplo mode. If the actual value
were adopted, a process should- be adopted similar to that
which accompanied the Reform Bill. lie admitted that in
60fale parishes, as the lion. netuber,gtateti, the rating may be

much too low. He wished that every parish was rated at the
actual value.

The House then divided, when there appeared
For the amendment 155
Against it 56
Majority _99

On re-entering the gallery, we found
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moving an amendment to
the effect that parties informing against persons not possessed
of a qualification should give security for costs, and that all
proceedings should be staid until security was given.
Agreed to.
Some other clauses, after a desultory conversation, were
agreed to, with verbal amendments.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL recommended that the clause
should stand as it was for the present, and that next Session a
Bill should be brought in to remedy any real inconvenience
that might be proved to have resulted from this enactment.
The clause was agreed to.
ECCLESIASTICAL PATRONAGE.