The Sun.
London, England, 1866-04-24 00:00:00

FIRE INSURANCES.

In reply to au hon. member,
Mr. SHERIDAN said if he postponed his motion with
rsspect to firo insurance without some day being fixed, he
should peril the question being taken this session. Ile
therefore should be compelled to bring it forward.
THE REFORM BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The adjourned debate was resumed this eveningb;
31r. BRIGHT, whose rising was the signal for some
cheering from the Liberal benches, said—Before I ad-
dress myself to the questions before the house there are two
matters of a personal character which I wish to dispose of-
The right hon. gentleman the member forCalne, on the first
night of this debate, made a complaint to this house that in
a speech out of this house I had imputed to him, or quoted
as from him, words he had not uttered. The right hon.
gentleman was quite right to make that complaint, if he
thought it was worth while to make it, because there was
no doubt, and I am sorry that it so happened, that some
three or four words which he had not spoken in that con-
nection, were added to the passage which he had spoken. I
regret that inaccuracy very much, and I have only the sa-
tisfaction of knowing or believing that I did not do the
right hon. gentleman any substantial injustice. Another
point refers to the speech of the noble lord the member for
King's Lynn. He retorted upon me the charge of conspiracy
with regard to two divisions, which took place some years
ago in this house—one with regard to the debate and divi-
sion on the China war, the other with regard to the division ou
the Conspiracy Bill. In neither of those cases dial the mover
of the resolution obtain a seconder from the opposite side of
the house. But with regard to the first case—that of the
China war—l was not in Parliament during that session. I
was in bad health, out of the country ; and the first thing I
heard of it was from reading an account of what had taken
place in this house in a public news-room in the city of
Rome. With regard to the case of the Conspiracy Bill, hon.
members who were then in the house will recollect that on
the division on the first reading of the bill nearly 100 mem-
bers, I think the exact number was 99, voted in the divi-
sion against the introduction or the first reading of the bill.
Amongst those were Lord J. Russell, my right hon. friend
the President of the Board of Trade, myself, and many
others. The noble lord's friends warmly welcomed and
supported that bill. (Cheers.) Before the second reading
came on my right hon. friend the President of the Board of
Trade gave notice of a resolution which, on debate, was
carried by the house. The noble lord, I presume, certainly
his friends, departing altogether from their course on the
first reading, turned completely round on their own policy,
and supported my right hon. friend the President ()lathe
Board of Trade, went into the same lobby withrus,m.rd_
made a majority against the Government of Lord .talcame
ston. (Hear, hear.) If there was any consp Y:
ir"lt it was a
from the other side of the house. (Hear,
liteeairt.)ey the noble
dirty conspiracy, the dirt was imported
;uracies which
to make the
occur in debate, but I thougenht it
.enisn,
lord and his friends. Now, these
and to explain the
apology to the right hon. g u
• advertently brought against
case which the noble lord in
to the
_tee nowquestion before the
me. (Hear, hear.) .1
lotion which has been moved b the
house, and to the re
so are the words in • y which the
member for Chester.
of resolution is wrapped up in this house,gene-
rallynareeceiinnsarac
design a "deg of it comes out durin debate, the true ine
did not leave • g ebate, but the
for Chester us in the slightest degree
member
in difficulty wi th regard to his view, and there can be nothing
clearer than this. I do not in the least blame him for it, for
be has a perfect right to his opinion—that he stands as the
principal opponent of this measure on the ground that ho
is opposed either to reform at all, or to an extension
of the franchise to the degree • which the Government pro-
pose to carry it by this bill. And I suspect, if the truth
were known, and judging from his speech, that if Govern-
ment should lay on the table of the house a Seatsßillwhich
may be as extensive with regard to that branch of the re-
form question as this measure is as regards the franchise
it will meet with the opposition of the noble lord. (Hear.)
One thing being absent is made an excuse and a weapon for
destroying a bill that is present. That, I think, as far as I
can judge, is a fair statement of the position of the noble
lord. (Hear, hear, and No, no.) Well, when the Seats Bill
is placed on the table of the house we shall have anoppoiii-1
noble tunity of knowing what is the course the n lord
lord
take upon it. I come now to the speech theof
amendment.
noble will
take
the member for King's Lynn, seconding
aed the
much less
That speech was much more ingenious
it lands us in the can-
did ; it was much less straightforward,
same pf
not more, used the osition ; the noble lord during that speech twice at
least, i
words " the balance of power,"
f the people in this
with regard to the representatienotheb fhouse..on
We have done pretty much with alanconol
eposevevi.
hen
and I hope the timew cm
the continent of Europe,
we shall have no such phrase is "the balance of power"
in this house. (Ironical cheers
and laughter from the
e the fair representa-
tive Op-
position.)
of all the people o I think this house should b
f this country, and although it may
not be desirable—and for those who think it is it may not
be attainable—
that all persons should vote, yet far short of
that I am persuaded that the representation may be so ar-
ranged as that every person of every class will feel that his

interests are fairly represented in and fairly consulted by
this house. (Hear, hear.) But the noble lord is afflicted
with a species of—l don't know whether I should call it

a terror or a feeling of no confidence, which I have
hardly ever witnessed in this house. .lle has no confi-
dence in the Government. Well, that I have very often

seen. I have seen him in a Government in which a ma-
jority of the house had no confidence ; but he has no con-
fidence in the house. First of all, although the Govern-
ment, through the noble lord the Prime Minister and through

the Chancellor of the Exchequer, have given the most dis-

tinct promises upon the question of the bill for the re-
arrangement of seats, the noble lord has no confidence in
those promises. He has no confidence in the house. Ile

has no confidence in the people, because he objects to give
them the franchise intended to be given by this bill, and
he has a special terror of what may happen if the Franchise
Bill pass, and a Seats Bill should follow. The noble lord
must know that whatever be the re-arrangement of seats
it must lead to greater popular power in this house. What-
ever be the extension of the franchise it must lead to the
greater power of the people in this house. We all know
that a parliament that should be elected in favour of elec-
toral reform, and of a redistribution of seats, would be a
parliament of full authority in. the country. It would
have power to extend the franchise still further, and to
accomplish the distribution of seats—(cheers from the
Opposition}—and to conduct all matters connected with
legislation. Therefore the noble lord, who has such extra-
ordinary anxiety about what may happen if this bill should
be carried and the other should fail, seems to me to be
about the most singular exhibition of political anxiety I
hare ever seen. As to the speech of the noble lord, I
thought everything true was not important, and everything
in the least degree important was not true—(oh, oh, from
the Opposition.) But there is one thing which is important,
and that is the opposition of the noble lord to this bill, and
I hope that he and his colleagues in opposing this resolution
will forgive me if I say that it is a painful, and more than
that, it is a perilous thing, when the heirs of two of the
most ancient—(cheers and counter-cheers)—and most
wealthy, and most powerful houses of the English nobility
oppose themselves to this moderate and just bill—(Oppo-
sition cheers)—and set themselves, by a coalition in this
house, to drive Earl Russell from power—(laughter and
cheers)—for this, and this only, offence, that he has wielded
the authority of his great office to extend, in what I main-
tain to be a moderate and Conservative degree, the fran-
chise of his countrymen. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord the
member for Chester (Earl Grosvenor) blamed the Govern-
ment because they took advice from this end of the house,
and did not confine themselves to the advice of powerful
persons belonging to the Whig party. I should think that
a measure supported by the house of Bedford and by the
house of Devonshire, that has among its supporters the
ilowards and Sutherlands, and the Duke of Somerset and
the Duke of Argyll, and that has the support of the Earl
of Clarendon and of Lord Granville, and of Lord Stanley,
the Postmaster General (cheers and laughter), and of the
right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary—(hear)—l think
that a measure supported by the names and powers I have
mentioned, cannot be said to be introduced by the House
without some consultation with the Whig party. (Cheers.)
If the noble lord the member forKing'sLynnwill allow me
in a perfectly friendly manner to give him a little friendly
advice I would give him it in one sentence—that the course
he is taking is a course that tends to drive away impor-
tant persons of the Whig party from the Liberal party in
this country—(hear, hear)—and if this course should suc-
ceed in dissevering the most intelligent of the Whig nobility
from the great popular party in this country, and if the
noble lord should succeed in putting all the dukes and
nobles on one side and all the popular party on the other
in this houno (hear, hear)—if the noble lord knows any-
thing of history he will know this, that when a great
popular party is fighting for itself against the nobles of the
country, whatever their virtues, and whatever their power,
you may rely upon it that the popular party will win, and
that the nobles will go to the wall. (Hear, hear.) But the
noble lord and many hon. members during this debate have
referred to a supposed influence which I have had as to the
mode this question has been brought before Parliament.
Seven years ago, just when the Government of Lord
Derby was thrown out, in an incidental conversation with
Lord Russell, I suggested to him that when this question
should be brought before us the proper course would be to
introduce a Franchise Bill by itself. (Cheers from the
Opposition.) From the year 1860 until this hour I have
only had one interview, ana that a very short interview,
of a political character, with Lord Russell ; and until the

noble lord mentioned the matter at the meeting of his sup-
porters in Downing-street I was totally ignorant of the
_ _ _

fact that the course of the Government in this matter had

been in any degree influenced by anything I had said. It

was at a meeting at Rochdale in January that I advised
not only the Government to take this course, but I advised
all persons in favour of reform throughout the kingdom to
support that course if it should be taken by the Govern-
ment. I will tell the house, with the most complete can-
dour and fairness, what are the reasons that induced me to
give that advice. I will assume during my observations
that the house is in favour of reform—l know that is a
stretch of imagination—(laughter)—though I regret to come
to that conclusion—but as I am speaking not only to gen-
tlemen in this house but to some gentlemen outside, I shall
treat the question as if the house was in favour of some
honest measure of reform, though there may be a
difference as to its extent. When I suggested to Lord
Russell, six years ago, to bring in a Franchise Bill, he said
the Opposition willimake use of that plan of action to op-
pose the Government altogether; they will submit a reso-
lution to the house, in all probability, not to support the
measure until they know all that the Government proposes.
(Cheers from the Opposition.) The noble lord knew per-
fectly well the tactics of hon. gentlemen opposite. But
notwithstanding that knowledge, I presume he felt it his
duty to submit a Franchise Bill by itself. If you look back
to the year 18-18, you will find that Mr. Hume proposed a
resolution to the house on the subject of reform, and if you
come down to the time of the motion of the hon. member
for Leeds (Mr. Baines) last year, you will see that the great
question all along has been, so far as it was a great popular
question, more one of the franchise than of the redistribu-
tion of seats. I assert, without any fear of contradiction,
that the pledges of the Government were not so much
pledges to the working classes as pledges to the working
classes who are excluded from the franchise—(" Oh, oh,"
from the Opposition), and who desire at some early day to
be admitted to this right. I agree with the hon. member
for Westminster (Mr. Mill) in this, and I think every mem-
ber of the house will agree to this, that, apart from all effect
which we may hope to produce in the composition of this
house by a measure of Parliamentary reform, it is necessary
that there should be an extension of the franchise so far
that, throughout this country, the working classes should
not feel themselves excluded from a share in the delibera-
tions of Parliament. What I want is to induce a sense of
justice among the great class now labouring under the idea
that they are unjustly excluded from a share in the fran-
chise, although the passing of this Franchise Bill should
not change'the seat of a single member in this house, and
although the distribution of seats were now as equal as it
could be made, and though no measure of reform were Tre-
cy, except as to the question of the franchise. The house
wille see that there is essential difference between the two
questions. The question of the franchise affects a special por-
tion of the population, while the question of redistribution
of seats is one that interestshighest class, the middle
class, and, to a certain extent, all the working class. But
this is a class question, and has' never been impressed upon
the house with so much force an),
When
ntion as the question
to con-
of the franchise. (hear, hear
gentlyeronuair wrilhe
gar the question of seats, an hon.
the opposite side of the house (Mr. Newdegate), and who
who
on
is very enthusiastic as to the number of members that the
counties ought to send to Parliament, will probably have
something to say on this subject. No doubt populous
counties ought to receive more members. So ought the
largest boroughs, and new boroughs ought to be created.
That is necessary for fair representation, but it is not
necessary for any special or particular class. (Hear, hear.)
The question of the extension of the franchise comes before
the house with a claim far more pressing, I will not say
far more righteous, but far more urgent, than any change
in the distribution of seats. (Hear.) Then there is areason
that any member of the Goverment will see at once, and I
asa spectator venture to express the opinion that the ques-
tion as proposed by the Government is very much more
simple than it would measure were proposed,
and therelwere be if a larger We
know very
weleinpled with it another great measure.
that, whether it-s,or, at all events, we think we know-
-CIO, to £9, to 48,
or
re
t(olesirable to reduce the franchise to
may be the redistributiof' it does not matter a straw what
undertake to devise a,
solo! seats. (No, no.) But I will
member for King's Laile, so that the noble lord the
Buckinghamshire might andi the right hon. member for
kingdom, and yet, by which sah
aa."te to every man in the
be made that the representation an arrangement might
and less complete than it is at this:l4 be infinitely worse
from the Opposition.) Whenyou have
trt (Loud cheers
the question of the franchise your ha.ndisse nesedand settled
standings are perfectly free for the purposea:id your under-
seats, and if you think to juggle the public arranging
the
franchise with one hand, and preventing the gyodiving the
effect in
another way you would be dissatisfying the people with P Par-
liament even more than they were dissatisfied in Pest times.
I think there is another reason which justifies the govern_
ment in the course they have taken. They did not desire to
combine the opponents of various branches of the reform
question in opposition to the extension of the franchise.
They thought very fairly that a bill which proposes to
change the disposition of 10, 20, 30, 40, it may be 50 seats,
is one involving a question of great difficulty. Though
such a measure may involve the exclusion of some members
from this house the government may fairly ask the aid of
the members for small boroughs to do justice-to the excluded
class, and to extend the franchise fairly and moderately
among the people. And I think the government made no
mistake, because among those of whom I have heard as
likely to vote for the amendment of tile noble lord the mem-
ber for Chester, I have not heard the name of any member,
with one exception, for a small borough which is likely
to be disfranchised by the bill which the Government aro
prepared to lay upon the table of the house. (Hear.)
Therefore the members of the small boroughs, wheresoever
they
sit
on this side of the house, have not shown any hos-
tility to the exte;asion of the fra •
nchrse, whatever may be