The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-26 00:00:00

IMPERI

Sharol R Closing Businessailways. Paid. Price.
Done.
100 Atlantic &St Lawrence!
Leased at 6 per cent all 85 88
18 Bom.,Baroda& Cent. Ind 131 i i d
gu. 5 percent
18 Do all - -
18 Do. Addit. Capital A 6 i ;1 d
18 Do. Do. B 44 a d
201 Buffalo and Lake Huron all 61 7 t
201 Do. New 164 - -- d
/00 fßuffalo,Brant. &Godrich 1 100 85 90
6 p. ct. bds. 1 Aug., 1872 j
100 Do. do. 1 July, 1873 100 82 86
190 Do. do. 1 June, 1874 100 80 84
20 Cleutta.&S.Eastrn.Lim. 1. 3. 0. par 4 p par
20 'Cape,Eastn. Prov.(Lim.) 2s. - -
20 Cape Town & Dock Scrip 2s. 1 4 14
20 Central Oude (Limited) 2s. 6d. - -
20 Ceylon Guaranteed 6p.c 2 4 4p54 64
171 Demerara - -
20 Eastern Bengal.gu.sp.c 5 4 4
d 41
Stock East Indian, 2-u. bp. c lOO 102 103 1024 4
20 Do. C Shares all - -
20 Do. E Shares Ext l5 4 i P
20 Do. Jubbulpore 5 - lOO D 0.44 p.c. Bds. pay.'s9 all - --
20 Geelong&Mel.p.-,ua.sp. c all 191 201 204 20 i sto. f Geelong Corporation 8 1 100 - _
( per cent. Bonds
:took Grand Trunk of Canada 100 35 37 351 1 5
100 Do. 6 p.c. Deben.,pay. '7B all 75 77 77
100 Do. 6 per cent. Pref lOO 93 94 931
20 Gt.lndiaPenin.gua.sp.e all 101 102
20 Do.
20 Do. New, gua.s per cent 4 par 4
p 31
do 4
20 I Gt.S.of Ind. Lim.-Scrip 2, _ _
guaranteed 5 per cent. )
eq Gt.W. of Canada Shares all 15 154 154
201 Do. New
[OO f Do. Bonds pay. '76,with
opt. till '6O
(
00 Do. do. '73 till '6O all 103 105
00 Do. do. 73 without opt all 103 105
00 Do. 54 p. c. do. '77 do
20 Madras, guar., 44 p. c all 17 18 191
20 Do. do. 5 per cent, all 1 20
20 Do. 44 p. c. Extension l5 1 181
20 Do. Third Ex. gua.s.p.e lO iof
20 Do. Fourth do.
ock Melb. Corp. 6 p.c. Bonds 100 -
i 0 {Newßrunswick&Canda.
Ry.&Land(Lim.)g.tpc 10 - - d
Class ACapitl.Share
Do. do. Land do .. ,
!O Do. do. B. Capital do 10 - - d
. Do. do. Land do
0 f Northoflndia Tramroad _ _
2s.
( Limited, Scrip
0 Oude (Limited) - '-
0 Scinde
.4 ..1 15 i 4p'
0 Do.
0 Do. New li ~ 10 i d Ipl
I Do. Punjaub
~,,,, 5 1 i
) Do. Indus. St. Flo te„,"" 10 4 d par
) St. Andrews & Quebec A 18 - -
) ~Trinidad(Limited) Scrip 1 4d par •

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 26, 1859.
TTTC,TI TIN et-en

Lord MONTEAGLE acquitted the Government of all
intention of concealment in this matter, and suggested that
the bill for raising the £7,000,000 should be advanced with
as much despatch as possible.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH reminded his noble
friend that there was a clause in the India Bill originally
by which it was proposed that certain commissioners should
be appointed to investigate the accounts of the different de-
partments in India. The clause was omitted in the House
of Commons. He thought that there was necessity for some
such arrangement.
The Earl of DERBY said he, to a certain extent, agreed
with his noble friend, and a question was now under the
cot sideration of the Government whether some competent
persons should not be sent out to investigate the state of the
accounts in India.
The motion was then agreed to.
BARON PENNEFATHER.
The Earl of LEITRIM rose to ask the First Lord of the
Treasury if it was his intention to recommend to her Majesty
to confer any honour, distinction, or dignity on the Right
Hon. Richard Pennefather, late Baron of the Exchequer in
Ireland, for his long and meritorious services? He stated
that the learned judge had been 38 years on the bench, and
had performed his duties in such a manner as to gain the
esteem of every class in Ireland. He was glad that the noble
earl (Carlisle), late the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and the
nobleand learned lord (Campbell), formerly Chancellor of
Ireland were present, as they would be able to add their
testimony to the merits of the learned judge.
The Earl of DERBY said, if the object of his noble friend
was to offer, as he had done, a grateful tribute to the merits
of Baron Pennefather, and to elicit similar marks of admira-
tion and respect from those noble lords who were present,
and especially the noble earl opposite, the late Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, and the noble and learned lord who during
his tenure of the Irish chancellorship had such long and
ample opportunity—(laughter)—of appreciating the services
of Baron Pennefather, he had attained his object, and he
(Lord Derby) would be the last to refuse his tribute of re-
spect to the distinguished gentleman who had sat so long on
the bench, who had been so universally esteemed and re-
spected, and who, notwithstanding infirmities which might
have incapacitated other persons, was acknowledged to have
performed the duties of a judge better than most men. With
regard to Baron Pennefather's uprightness and high cha-
racter, as well as with regard to his abilities and conduct as
a judge, he never heard but one opinion; but ho was not
aware that Baron Pennefather or his friends expected that
in his honoured retirement any peculiar mark of favour
should be conferred on him by the Crown ; and he hoped
his noble friend would excuse him if he said that this was
not a subject that could be dealt with by that house, but by
the Crown alone, and therefore he must respectfully decline
to give any further answer to the question.
TILE TRADING COMPANIES ACT (1859) BILL.—
THE MEDICAL ACT (1858) AMENDMENT BILL.
The reports of the amendments to these bills were severally
received.

OATHS ACT AMENDMENT BILL
This bill passed through ermmittee.
The house then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKEU took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Tavistock Markets, Streets, and Improvement Bil,,
and Warrington and Stockport Railway Bill were read a
third time and passed.
The following bills were considered and ordered for third
reading:—Central Wales Railway; Mid-Wales Railway;
and Red Sea and India Telegraph. Company {No. 2).
The report on the Atlantic Telegraph Company was
brought up and agreed to.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The members of the house were summoned to the bar of
the House of Lords, to hear the Royal assent given by
commission to several bills.
PETITIONS.
Several petitions were presented against the Government
Reform Bill ; for the abolition of church rates ; for the repeal
of the duty on paper; against the Local Rates Exemption
Bill ; iji favour of a comprehensive and satisfactory Reform
Bill being introduced with as little delay as possible ; for
the exemption of charitable institutions from local taxation;
against the Highway Bill, &c., &c.
THE GOVERNMENT REFORM BILL.
Mr. D. GRIFFITH gave notice that on Monday he
would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether uni-
formity of franchise was a principle or merely a detail.
(Hear, hear.)

the sth of February, which took a much more gloomy view
of the state of the Indian finances. According to that de-
spatch it appeared that after allowing for an increase in the
revenue as compared with the present year to the amount
of 280 lees, upon which it was thought they might fairly
calculate, on the 30th of April, 1860, there would be a defi-
ciency of 1,140 lass, that was to say in round numbers, 11
millions and a half sterling. He made out the statement at
the rate of 2a. the rupee. And deducting the million which
would be received from England, that would leave a defi-
ciency to be provided for of 10 millions and a half. But
that 10 millions and a half proceeded on the assumption
that it would be necessary by the 30th of April, 1860, to
raise the immediate balance in hand up as high as 12 mil-
lions. The estimated balance in hand of the Indian
Government on the 30th of April, 1859, was £8,860,000.
The deficiency would be reduced to about £9,500,000, and to
provide for it the Indian Government had felt it to be their
duty not to depend altogether on loans, but to make an effort
to ascertain whether it was not
.practicable to increase the
amount of local taxation in India. And by the despatch sent
on the sth of February the Governor-General in Council
announced his intention of raising a certain amount partly
by taxation on imports, partly by extending► the system of
stamps to the towns of the presidency to which it had not
previously applied, and partly by a species of excise duty
upon home-grown tobacco. It was estimated that these re-
sources would produce about £1,500,000, and thereby reduce
the deficiency to be provided for to £8,000,000. Of that
amount £5,000,000 would be raised by means of loan in
India, and the remaining £3,000,000 would have to be found
by the British Government, so that £3,000,000 would be re-
quired to be sent out to India over and above the £1,000,000
already transmitted. The Government had, therefore, come
to the conclusion that it would be necessary in the course of
the present year to ask the sanction of Parliament for rais-
ing a further sum of money beyond the £7,000,000 already
voted. He could not state the precise sum at that moment ;
but certainly it would not be less than £3,000,000, and
might probably amount to £5,000,000. He ought to observe
that in calculating the deficiency the Indian Government
had altogether excluded any claims for prize-money that
might hereafter arise, or any claim that might.be made for
damage or injuries sustained during the mutiny. It was
impossible at present to make any calculation upon either
of these heads ; but there was this to be said, that claims
for compensation might be met to a considerable extent out
of the proceeds arising from confiscated territories. With
regard to the question of prize money, it was difficult to esti-
mate what that amount would be; but, on the other hand, it
was only fair to bring into the account the deposits received
in this country for meeting the railway expenditure of India.
This year about £4,500,000 would be remitted to India for
that purpose; and next year it was calculated that the
amount would be considerably larger. Their lordships would
observe that the Indian Government had debited themselves
with the charge for railway works; but they had taken no
credit for the £4,500,000 remitted. He thought he had now
placed before their lordships as clearly as they could desire
the present financial state of India, and in doing so he had
put their lordships in possession of the latest intelligence
the Government had received on the subject. His noble
friend who had introduced the subject had given notice of
his intention to ask whether the Bank of Bombay had been
compelled to limit its accommodation, and whether the offi-
cials had in any degree suffered, from part of their allow-
ances being kept back. He could only say that the Govern-
ment had not received any information on the subject. The
only intelligence they had received came by telegraph from
Bombay, and it contained only an intimation of the Govern-
ment intention to raise a 51 per cent. loan, commencing
from the 30th of April next. It did not snake any mention
of further embarrassments. With regard to the motion of
his noble friend, he should not have the least difficulty in
laying on the table the various communications that had
been received; and he would lay on the table the despatches
to which he had referred cf the 26th of January and the sth
of February, and the answers sent to them by the India
Board on the 9th an I 16th of February. It was exceedingly
desirable that the Indian Loan Bill, now before Parliament,
should be passed as speedilyas possible; and he might, per-
haps, be allowed to express here a hope that, after the ex-
planation he had given to-night, no imputation would be
thrown upon the Government of their having in the first
instance intentionally raised an insufficient sum. If the
Government had been in possession of the same information
which they had now when they introduced the bill, the pro-
bability was they would have asked for power to raise
£12,000,000. As, however, the bill had made some progress,
it would be more convenient to proceed with it as it stood,
accompanying it with the intimation that in all probability
an appeal would have to be made to Parliament for a fur-
ther sum. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE did not think the
noble earl could have made his statement more clear than it
was. No one could doubt that if India were properly go-
verned the revenue would yield a far greater amount than
it does now. Under the existing form of the Government,
which was in his opinion no improvement upon the old, he
saw nothing to hope for in the future of India.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE said the present system of
raising Indian loans was radically bad—it excluded the na-
tive capitalist from contributing towards the exigencies of
his country. In his opinion the entire system should be
changed, and India made to raise and support her own
loans

which in its opinion were necessary ; whether those works,
or any others,for effecting the same purposes, were being
carried out ; and, if so, who were the persons charged with
the direction of such works, and when it was probable they
Would be completed ?
Mr. S. FITZGERALD explained that by arrangement
between the five poWers concerned, the matter had' been re-
ferred to a commission of inquiry sitting in Paris, at
which this country was represented, and it was the opinion
of that commission that the St. George's mouth should be
improved. When all the works necessary for improving
the navigation of the Danube were carried out they would
cost about £500,000, which would be repaid by a tax on
ships using the river.

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL corrected some errors
in a statement made in the course of the debate on the
Government bill last night by the hon. member for Dover
with reference to a hustings speech
.delivered by him (the
Solicitor-General) at Belfast.

THE PICTURE OF "THE APOLLO AND
MARSYAS."
Mr. CONINGHAM asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, whether, as the authorities at the National Gallery
were reported to have expressed their willingness to give a
large sum for a picture by Raffaelle, it was not desirable
that the Government should secure for the nation the
famous picture of " The Apollo end Marsyas," now in the
possession of Morris Moore, Esq., the original drawing
of which is in the academy at Venice. The hon•
member referred to the services rendered by Mr.
Moore, who, he contended, had been very badly treated,
and from his attacks on high parties, lie was reduced to
a state that left him no alternative but suicide or starva-
tion. The hon. member then proceeded to address the
house in a strain of vehement indignation, but was com-
pelled to conclude abruptly his remarks from tho impa-
tience evinced by the house.
The CHANChLLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose and
said that he found very great difficulty in dealing with the
inquiry of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Coningham). The in-
quiry was, whether, as the authorities at the National Gal-
lery, are reported to have expressed their willingness to give
a large sum for a picture by Raffaele, it would not be desir-
able that Government should secure forthenat ion the famous
picture of the "Apollo and Marsyas," now in the posses-
sion of Morris Moore, Esq. (Laughter.) He never heard
of the report, and he never saw the picture, and was•therefore
called on to deal at the same time with a hypothesis and a con-
tingency, two of the most difficult things with which any
one could deal. (Laughter.) Though he felt, in the posi-
tion he occupied, naturally alarmed when he read of large
sums of money given for famous pictures, he might at least
express the opinion of the Government, that it was desir-
able that the trustees of the National Gallery, when they
purchased pictures, should purchase them of the highest
class, and if they did not, that they incurred a very great
responsibility. (" Hear, hear," and much laughter.)
THE ANNUITY TAX BILL.
In reply to Mr. BLACK,
The LORD ADVOCATE said that he would not be
prepared to bring forward the Government measure on
Wednesday next.
THE COUNCIL OF INDIA.
Mr. V. SMITH asked the Secretary of State for India to
lay on the table any minutes or regulations he had made for
the transaction of business in the Council of India, under
the 20th section of the act 21 and 22 Vic., c. 106.
After some discussion on a point of order,
Mr. V. SMITH contended that the regulations adopted
with reference to the transactions of the Council, instead of
light being admitted everything was rendered even more
obscure than previously, to the public at large.
Lord STANLEY said he had no objection to lay the
minutes in questions, which were very brief, en the table.
The Council were divided into committees for the
transaction of business. Ho agreed in the sugges-
tion of the honourable member that there should
be a special announcement made with respect. to
these secret despatches and that course would be adopted
in future. It was not the regular course to lay such docu-
ments as the despatch of the 3d of August, on the table,
but in the present instance he would have no objection
to do so. He had ordered the second despatch to be re •
ferred to the secret committee, and it had been sent out from
the secret department by their recommendation. It was
not, therefore, brought before the council.
THE REFORM BILL.
On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate,
Mr. lIORSMAN said he hoped he might be allowed to
correct an error into which the hon. member for Binning-
ham had fallen last night. The hon. member had stated that he
(Mr. Horsman) suggested that if the house should make
very important amendments on the bill in committee the
Government would dishonour themselves by accepting them.
He said nosuch thing. What he said was, that they ought
to exert their power to make 'such amendments, and then
east on the Government the responsibility of rejecting them.
They would then have two rival bills--the bill of the Go-
vernment and the bill as amended by the house, upon
which there would be a clear issue to appeal to the country.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE resumed the discussion by saying
that no one could listen to the debate without feeling aware
that the house had got into a situation of embarrassment.
Why was the question embarrassed, and to what was that
to be attributed ? The question was complicated, in the
first place, because the measure was produced by a Govern-
ment who were in a minority in the house, from the fact
that it did not proceed altogether from the spontaneous de-
sire of the Government, but in answer to a call from the
country and the house for a measure of the kind. (Hear,
hear.) It was more embarrassing still because it was any-
thing but distinct as to the precise objects that a measure
of the kind should have in view. These were embarrass-
ments naturally arising out of the question itself, and its
origin, but the question was rendered more embarrassing
and complicated from the mode in which the issue had been
raised by the resolution of the noble lord, because it was
not a fair fight on the second reading or an open council in
committee. The resolution was so general in its terms that
it raised no distinct issue, and the speech of the noble lord
did not supply what was wanting in the form of the resolu-
tion. (Hear.) It was therefore natural that those who de-
sired to know what it really meant should look to the bill
which the noble lord introduced in 1864, and to the measures
advocated by the hon. member for Birmingham. Yet upon
ono or either the noble lord declined to commit himself'. The
question-was still more embarrassing and complicated on
account of the position taken by his two right bon. friends
behind him who left the Cabinet, and this was more parti-
cularly the case when it was known that the particular point
on which they left their colleagues was that which caused so
much discussion—the principle of uniformity of franchise.
It was suggested that the Government should take back the
bill with a view of altering in it the sense suggested by their
former colleagues. But that was a course which the Govern-
ment could not take without placing themselves in a false
position, and even raising a question as to their personal
honour. (Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the question of
identity of suffrage ho wished to say a few words. Many ques,
tions had been put to the Government whether they would
consider any interference with the principle of identity as
being fatal to the bill. He thought it was most unfair to seek
to bind the Government in any way to particular promises as
to what they would or would not do in the event of certain
contingencies taking place. (Hear, hear.) The principle of
identtty, no doubt, formed an important portion of the bill,
but it contained many other principles besides that of the
identity of the suffrage. Objection was taken to this iden -
tity in the first place because it was new, then because it
stopped at £lO, because it was mixed up with what was
called the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders, because
it had a tendency to produce electoral districts, and a
system of fagot votes. These objections divided them-
selves into two kinds—objections to the essence of the
bill end objections to the accidents with which the intro-
duction of the bill was accompanied. The objection to the
£lO was an objection not to the principle of uniformity,
but to the mode in which it happened to be applied, be-
cause there might be identity between the borough and
county franchise at any point than a £lO occupation. So
again with regard to the lowering of the borough franchise
below £lO, and the transference of the 40s. freeholders in
boroughs—these were not objections to the principle, but to
the mode of application, which might be discussed in com-
mittee, but which it was impossible to discuss at that stage
of the bill at which they had arrived. (Hear, hear.) He did
not understand anything which had fallen from his noble
friend (Lord Stanley) or from any member of the Govern-
ment as implying that any principle of the bill was not
fairly open for consideration in eommittee, or as pledg-
ing themselves against any amendment that might be
made. (Hear, hear.) But •to call on the Government
to say that they would accept any particular decision of
the hence was a thing which no one had a right to ex-
pect. He saw much force in the objection that the prin-
ciple of uniformity would lead to the creation of faggot
votes, because the property qualification in boroughs
would give peculiar facilities for their creation within the
narrow area of boroughs. (Hear, hear.) He stated the
objection fairly. The Government saw the danger, for they
proposed a clause to prevent the evil apprehended. They
were told that the clause was insufficient. That was a
matter, however, for discussion in committee. (Hear.) Tho
principle of uniformity was not exhibited, he apprehended,
as a kind of universal medicine, like Morison's pills.
(Laughter.) It was no divinity or idol to be set up for
worship and adored at all hazards and costs. Let them go
into committee, consider the question, and see if they
could not get rid of it one way or the other. (Laughter.)
The noble lord took the course he did because if he voted
directly against the second reading he was afraid his motives
might bo misunderstood. Considering the high position of
the noble lord, and his connection with the question of Re-
form,.there was little fear of that, especially as the noble
lord could explain his motives in his speech. With. regard
to the extension of the franchise given by this bill, a good
deal had been said of what (with a view to discredit the mea-
sure) were called the fancy franchises ; if this bill passed
even in its present shape, two great results would be at-
tained—an addition of one-third to the existing constitu-
ency, and a door opened by which further additions could
frequently take place. The present number of electors was
about 900,000, the reduction of the county franchise to £lO
would add about 200,000—(no, no, and hear, hear)—that
at least was the result of the best information the Govern-
meat could obtain. There were some alleged disfranchise-
ments to set off against that, but it would be easy in com-
mittee to remove all those. He believed that the savings-
bank franchise would add 50,000, and the other new
franchises about 60,000 more. It was difficult to get
correct information with regard to the savings banks, but
he had applied to the Comptroller of the National Debt
Office on the subject, and he was informed they could
give no information with regard to the depositors above
£6O, but they could as regarded those above £5O. In
1858 the number of depositors above that amount was
185,000. (Hear, hear.) Of these a certain number repre-
sented trust accounts. A return presented to the House of
Lords in 1852 enabled him to approximate to that number,
and if they excluded such accounts the numberof depositors
above £5O would be 153,000. Of course a large number of
these were females. The proportion was not quite one-half;
it would be about 75,400 females, and 77,600 males. Of
these souse already possessed the franchise ; but he thought
they might reasonably expect an addition to the constituen-
cies of 50,000. They might add considerably to this number
by an extension to this principle, either in lowering the
maximum or including other modes of investment. Tho
lodging franchise would add a considerable number also.
In London, the number of lodgers was very great in some
districts ; in the borough of Marylebone, for example, it ex-
ceeded the number of householders. In that district the
number of houses below £lO value was very small—not one
per cent, of the entire ; a reduction of the household
limit, therefore, would add scarcely anything to the con-
stituency, whilst the admission of lodgers must in-
crease it by several hundreds. He had made some in-
quiries, and found that fprnished lodgings at 7s. a week
were almost equivalent to a rent of £lO for an unfurnished
house. It would be in the power of the committee to re-
duce the Bs. limit if they thought fit. A number of the
working classes now took houses which they let off in lodg-
ings to their fellow-workmen, and by the new qualification
all these would be admitted to the franchise. As the bill
stood, therefore, it increased the constituency very consi-

derably. He would ask those who said it was not enough
to consider what the position of the Government was; they
had to bring forward a measure which they thmighti they
could pass. (Hear, and laughter.) They Could not have
receded from anything they had once offered. If the mea-
sure now fell short of what was desired it was in the power
of the house to carry it as much further as they pleased.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) But to ask the -Government
on the second reading, to give a pledge as to amendments
of which they knew nothing was to call upon them
to abdicate their functions. The Government only
invited the house to deal with the measure in a
practical manner, to go into committee, and the: e
give counsel and put on paper any definite proposal they
had to maize. They had heard the speech of the noble lord
the member fbr London, and that of the hon. member for
Birmingham, in which ho had declared his intention to
unite with the noble lord in attempting to throw out the
bill. They had heard them talk of the necessity of settling
the question, and then speak of the prospect of autumn
meetings and winter agitation. He must say he thought
hon, gentlemen under such circumstance would incur a
very grave responsibility—(hear)—if without indicating.
what they did want, or what proposal they would make,
they refused to go into committee. There was nothing in
the terms of the bill, nothing in the declaration of the-Go-
vernment, to preclude them from making any changes they
thought fit. He.believed the bill did furnish the elements
of a satisfactory settlement, and that it would be possible
in committee, without any great difficulty, to remove all,
the objectionable points. if they went into committee
the bill could be carried further. (Hear, hear.) Of course
he only spoke for himself. In his position lie had no
knowledge of the intentions of the Cabinet, but there wag
nothing to prevent him from forming his own judgment and
drawing his conclusions from what passed in the house. It
was perfectly possible in committee to propose any exten-
sion that might be thought necessary, if the Government
saw no objection ; but until they got into committee the
Government eould not be called on to pronounce an opinion
on any of these details. The bill as it stood was one on which a Conservative Government might take its stand,
and if the house rejected it there was• no chance of their
bringing the question to a satisfactory solution this session.
(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
When the hon. baronet resumed his scat a number of
members rose. Amongst them was Mr. Cardwell and Mr.
Beaumont. There were loud calls for the latter, with min-
gled cries, of " New member !" The Speaker, however,
called on Mr. Cardwell. The uproar was still continuing, when—
Mr. BENTINCK rose to order.
.I-Ie had always under.-
stood that it was usual to give way to a new member.
Lord PALMERSTON said that when once the Speaker
had named'a member it was not usual or respectful to in-
terfere with his decision. (Hear, hear.)
•
Mr. CARDWELL said he had nu wish to interfere with
a new member, and would have given way if he had been
aware that one had risen. He had hoped that when his
hon. friend the Secretary to the Treasury rose, his speech
would have contained some counsel to aid them in escaping
from the embarrassments in which this question was in-
volved, or that at least he would have given them a dis-
tinction between principle on one hand and what might be
altered in committee, and that the house would have known
what in his idea was the principle to bo approved of on the
second reading, and what was matter of detail to which the
Government were not to be considered as pledged. 'When
he listened to the speech, however, he was reminded of the
description of Chaos, where the water was too thick to sail
in, and the land too liquid to walk on ; or that of the
Polar Sea, where the navigator found the ice was
not strong enough to bear, but the sea too much en- •
cumbered by blocks of ice for him to sail through it. The
only conclusion to be derived from the speech was, that the
bill did not contain any single proposition which could be
called a principle. (Hear, hear.) It was framed, not to carry
into effect any sincere conviction, not to accomplish any
practical result, not to confer on the people any great or
substantial benefit—the bill was merely made to pass—(hear,
hear)—if it passed, the object of the Government was at-
tained. (Hear, hear.) This was a matter which it would
become the House of Commons carefully and temperately to
consider before it embarked in the dangerous progress of a
bill of this nature in committee. The present had been
called a great opportunity; he believed it was, if they
rightly embraced it, for the performance of a great duty.
The bill of 1832 was an alteration adapted to the cir-
cumstances of the case, by a calm and scientific considera-
tion, such as they might apply in the present case, if they
made proper use of their opportunities. It had a na-
ture and character still more marked ; it was a great
struggle for the transfer of power from the great
agricultural interest to the great monied, commercial, and
manufacturing interests which had serrung up during the
years preceding. The struggle ended happily; but it left
behind it other reforms which required to be accomplished
before the measure would have full effect. Since then a
great advance had taken place in the industry, education,
intelligence, and well-being of the lower classes, whose case
they were again called on to consider. The present was a
great opportunity for the accomplishment of a reform of this
nature, without again entering on an angry struggle between
classes. (Hear, hear.) He had listened with admiration to
the able speech of the Secretary for the Colonies, but he could
not help feeling apprehensive that, if doctrines such as ho
held were to be accepted by the house, and animated appeals
to be made to the middle classes to retain the privileges and
power they possessed, and guard with jealousy thefranehise
from the attack of the class who did not yet participate in it,
the next Reform Bill would be carried by an angry and ex-
asperating struggle for power between classes. What
object ought they to have in view in dealing with a Reform
Bill ? Their object ought to be to diminish what was called
influence in elections, to increase the power of public
opinion, to enable industry and education, associated with
wealth and numbers, to return members for places where
influence had before prevailed ; but this bill had a tendency
to increase influence and diminish the power of public opi-
nion. There were three ways in which they could deal with
this question : the first was by a redistribution of the seats
of the small boroughs amongst the larger and increasing
communities. For his own part, he Confessed be agreed
with all writers of authority on this subject, that of all
means of increasing the influence of public opinion, this
was one of the most efficacious. The noble lord the Secre-
tary for India had admitted this was right in theory, but
said was impossible to be accomplished, and that they must
be satisfied without it. He took this for granted, and would,
therefore, consider the other two modes—the alteration of
the county and borough franchise. This belonged to what
the Secretary to the Treasury called matters of detail, but
it appeard to him that the whole controversy was involved
in the great question of what was called uniformity. This
had been put forward as the principle, but really he did not
know now whether the Government considered it to be a
principle or a matter of detail. There was one principle
. which had been laid down by all writers, and never altered
from the earliest times of the House of Commons, and
which could not be altered without laying the axe to the
root of all their liberties. That principle was not uniformity
of franchises but propriety of franchise. That diversity of
character and interest formed the cement and groundwork
on which the great interests of the country were built up,
and they could not for a moment interfere with that variety
without altering the whole scope and character of their
institutions. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that the
county franchise turned upon property, and the borough
franchise upon occupation, and the Solicitor-General had
contended that since the passing of the Reform Bill of
1832 that distinction had no longer existed. The his-
tory of the county franchise was this :—ln the earliest
times all the freeholders of the county were invited to exer-
cise the franchise. In the reign of Henry VI. the freeholds
were for the first time limited to those of the value of 40s.
At that period only freeholders exercised the franchise, be-
neficial leaseholds being thenunknown, and tenure by copy-
holds being a very different thing from what it was at pre-
sent. As beneficial leaseholds grew up, and copyholds in-
creased in importance, the franchise was attached to them ;
and, lastly, by the Reform Bill, it was also extended to oc-
cupations in counties of the yearly value of £.60. As regarded
the borough franchise in the rear 1624, there sat in that
house a committee, of which kr. Hallam said that it was
composed of the most eminent men that ever were associ-
ated in a body of that kind, and they laid it down that the
common law right of voting in boroughs extended to all
householders in boroughs who paid taxes and local rates,
and Mr. Hallam remarked that the nearer they approached
to that franchise the more consonant would the electoral
system be, not with new theories of modern liberty, bus svt-th
the ancient spirit of the law. He woulodinouttitiraoguebwleatshneolitoluasied
with authorities; but he believed there was no text-book on
ycikle .s
dtlorewnßraistisaliegorreiasttitduitsit(imng mu•lirseirieinvgarpierin of that constitu-
tion. If they imported any great principle into the British
constitution, they might depend upon it that principle
would not be dead and inert, but would be a vital aniniat-
' ing principle spreading to all parts of the constitution.
(Hear, hear.) At present the House of Lords appeared not
only to have suffered no diminution of authority as time
had rolled on, l.ut to have been constantly gaining in pub-
lic estimation. But what would be the effect if they esta-
blished the principle that the franchise of every elector
should be exactly the same—that equality should be the
rule ? (Hear, hear.) He believed it would be found on
examining the history of this country that the people had
never desired equality, but what they had desired was free-
dom ; and ho also believed that in England free-
dom would never exhibit. itself under the aspect
of equality. (Loud cheers.) Considering
this a great con-
the bill stitutional principle, he could not understand the argu-
ment of the Treasury bench that should be allowed
to go into committee, and that it should then be determined
what course should be taken with regard to it. What the
authors of the bill termed " identity of franchise" was a
principle wholly unknown to the British constitution, and
one, the adoption of which would, in his opinion, lead to
the most dangerous consequences ; and, whether he con-
sidered that objection, or whether he had regard to the fact
that, instead of extending popular election, the bill would,
both in counties and in boroughs, tendto diminish it, he was
led to the conclusion that he ought not to vote for tho se-
cond reading. He was told that it would be incompatible
with the honour of the Government to adopt the principles
of the resolution. What he had to do byhis votewassimply
to perform his duty as a representative—(hear, hear)—and
the honour of the Government was not with him an irre-
sistible motive against opposing the second reading. If the
honour of the Government was involved, so also were the
honour and independence of every member of that house.
(Hear, hear.) He had listened with great attention to the
reasoning of the noble lord the Secretary for India on that
point, but there was one thing to which he paid more atten-
tion than even the noble lord's reasoning, and that was the
example he gave them by his conduct; and he had observed
that when a bill was proposed by a Government, to theprin.
ciple of whichthe noble lord could not honestly assent, he did
not hesitate to vote against the second reading. Believing
this question to be one of principle, and believing also that
it was only as a question of principle that it could be dealt
with, he intended to vote for a resolution which exactly ex-
pressed the views he entertained. (Cheers.) The night hon.
gentleman behind him (Mr. Herman) had told the opposition
that they were so powerful that they could do anything they
liked with the bill in committee, and yet he went on to say
that they were so powerless that if they could maintain their
unanimity for fOurand twenty hours it would be as flinches
they could do. (Laughter.) If the latter statement were .
correct what chance would there be if the bill went into
committee of arriving at a satisfactory conclusion ? (Hear,
hear.) The responsibility of defeat would rest upon those
who in the name of reform had brought forward a mea-
sure which vas not one of reform. (Hear, hear.) There
was a policy which had been called Liberal-conservatisni—
a policy which was liberal because it was conservative;
conservative because it was liberal. When an exigency had
arisen such a policy dealt with it, so as to remove the cause
of dissat:sfaction from the public mind and afford security
against ulterior demands. But there was a policy which
was neither liberal nor conservative. (Cheers.) That was
a policy which when a public exigency had arisen affected
to deal with it and did not deal with it, which dissatisfied
the reasonable expectations of temperate people, and thereby
tended to create demands which would otherwise never