The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-15 00:00:00

innovation on the.structure of corporate bodies which it would
not be proper to admit. Although a money qualification had
been deemed necessary in those who acted as trustees in the
administration of funds, no qualification of that kind ha'.3 ever
yet been required in hose who were chosen to discharge
municipal functions. But even supposing; a qualification to
be necessary, he certainly could not bring himself to think
that the qualification proposed. by the Noble and Learned
Lord was of a character that it would be right for the Legis-
lature to recognise. The effect of it, in many instances,,
would be to deprive corporate towns of the services of some
of their most useful, most efficient, and most independent in-
habitants. He, for one, therefore, was of opinion that it would
be better not to require the qualification which was the ob-
ject of the amendment.—( Hear. )
Lord PLUNKETT would not apply himself to the argu-
ment of whether a qualification were or were not necessary.
He thought a qualification was not necessary ; but of all the
qualifications that could be required, he thought that sug-
gested by the amendment was the very worst. It would
establish a principle of exclusion which every corporate
town would, be disposed to regard as an insult instead of a
boon. The exemption proposed by the Noble and Learned
Lord did so upon the ground that the parties exempted
had no qualification, but that others had a better quali-
fication. Why were the five-sixths excluded? Not because
they might not have a very sufficient qualification—not because
they had' no property—no experience—no integrity—or 0,
possession of none of the confidence of their fellow-nom`
but because the remaining sixth of the inhabitants ens,
qualification. The people of the countrx.,w^:.'
oad a higher
as to be imposed upon by a proposities•
're not such idiots
the Noble and Learned Lord h- • of that description. If
thing by which the provi-' endeavoured to devise any-
ons of the Bl could e d - into a mockery - ,is
. would be impossibleil b
for him to pursue a
better cprse_
Hear, hear. )
Y.,11°. &hike of BUCCL E UCH said that when Noble Lords
argue d as if no qualification were required in the Scotch
ourghs, they were completely mistaken ; because, by the Act
which
,passed only a short time ago, it was expressly pro-
vided, that those only should be the electors or councillors
who were possessed of the 10/. qualification, in the same
manner as those. who were to elect Members of Parliament.
—( Hear.) He was decidedly of opinion that a qualification
ought to be required for the Council, of the English cor-
porate towns ; and he knew of no qualification that could
be more properly required than that suggested by the Noble
and Learned Lord.
The Earl of HADDINGTON ber2.e,-,ed to confirm what
had been stated by the Noble Duke with respect to the qua-
lification required in the Council of the Scotch burghs. If
it were expected that corporate property should be properly
administered, and that the interests of the town should be pro-
perly protected, no one could doubt that some qualification
ought to be required in the members of the governing body.
The Earl of RADNOR saw no necessity for requiring a
qualification. He thought that the inhabitants of the towns
would always select those to govern their affairs who were
naturally the best qualified. At all events, if any qualification
were necessary, such a qualification as that proposed by the
Noble and Learned Lord was the very last that should be
adopted.
The Duke of WELLINGTON thought that persons who
Were entrusted with such discretionary powers, and with such
an extent of authority 'as must necessarily be conferred on the
governing body of every corporate town, ought to possess some
certain qualification. It was absolutely necessary that they
should give some sort of security fOr the due and proper per-
formance of the duties which devolved upon them. He was
of opinioii that the qualification proposed by his Noble and
Learned Friend would act uniformly and successfully, applying
equally to all places, whether large or small.
Lord GLENELU objected decidedly and in the strongest
manner to the proposition of the Noble and Learned Lord.
It was a proposition which struck at once at the very principle
of the Bill, and if adopted, would be utterly destructive to it.
The object of the Bill was to produce a sympathy of interest—
a common feeling of good will—an equality of rights amongst
all the inhabitants in every corporate town. The effect of the
Noble and Learned Lord's proposition would be to establish in
every town a separate and exclusive class, from out of which
only the corporate officers should be elected. This would at
once be fatal to the principle of the Bill.
Lord E LLENB ORO UGH was persuaded that the only
purpose which his Nohle and Learned Friend had in view was
to prevent persons who were not properly qualified from hold-
ing situations of trust and importance. His reason for voting
for his Noble and Learned Friend's proposition was, that-he
wished this to be a permanent establishment for the good of.
the country. They had often seen that on the occurrence of
a single abuse, Parliament had proceeded to overturn an
establishment. Now, no man could doubt that as the Bill at
present stood, it would be the cause of the grossest abuses..
It was. desirable, therefore, in order to secure the permanency,
of the proposed establishment, that as little temptations- --io
abuse as possible should be afforded. They must islet°
with reference not to particular exceptions, but to.‘:,,e eneral
rule. He was persuaded that many of their. r
ordships were
not aware of the extent of franchise to vifich the proposition
of his Noble and Learned Friend 1".7,:fd reach. In Shrews-
bury there would be still 648 PFP.ons elieible, notwithstanding
that proposition ;in Doncase-,r; 400 ; , ;
Maidstone 500 in
Northampton, 590. --
Lord BROUG- .14... AM said a few words in explanation.
The Marlqui7. of L ANSDOWNE was not one of those
who, gerl".liily speaking, objected to the principle of qealifica-
-11011), out be-could net see any 'principle of qualifica'tion in the
)resent case which wculd not be objectionable. The proposi-
tion which the Noble and Learned Lord made with reference
to this great popular measure was to disqualify five-sixths of
the rate-payers of England, on no account but that of their
comparative poverty. The Noble Duke opposite had spoken
of the certainty and uniformity of the operation of wealth,
He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) readily admitted his wish
that wealth should preponderate ; but that its operation
should be perfectly certain and uniform was precisely that
which he was desirous of avoiding. In the early part of the
discussion he heard a Noble Lord talk of the necessity of ex-
eluding demagogues, by which term he supposed that Noble
Lord meant to describe persons who had obtained an influence
over many.persons in their own rank of life. Now he did not
know anything more certain than if persons who had obtained
that kind of influence—which it was by no means easy for any
one to obtain except by superior talents and character—were
excluded from-associating with the higher ranks of society,
they would be found much more dangerous than if they were
admitted into that society. In the one case the people would
think that their interests were attended to ; in the other case
that their interests were neglected. From his experience he
was sure that, in the long run, the choice of the people of
England, especially with reference to those who were to have
the superintendence of money affairs, would fall upon persons
of property. And he was also persuaded that, under the ope-
ration of the proposed clause, persons of wealth would be fre-
quently excluded. He knew a case of a person who was rated
at a low rate, only fora shop, but who was a person of wealth,
living out of the town, and who would come under the bar of
exclusion contained in the Noble and Learned Lord's clause.
He believed that, in general, wealth tinder the Bill would
predominate ; but that it would gather about itself (as it
ought to do) a limited number of individuals, who, either by
their attainments, or by their popularity, would add to the
confidence which town-councils ought to possess.
Viscount MELBOURNE said, that exhausted as the sub-
ject was, he was unwilling farther to take up their Lordships'
time. But so deeply impressed was he with the importance of
the question,'that he could not allow it to go to a decision
without saying a few words. The proposition for introducing
qualification into the Bill had been considered ; but it had
been resolved to bring in the Bill in its present form, on ac-
count of the difficulty of making any qualification effectual ;
any qualification which might not be evaded, and set at nought.
In his opinion it would be neither wise nor,prudent to require
a qualification of property-on the part of tiThse who were to be
elected members of the town-council. It would be contrary
to the principle of the Bill. The present evil was the want
of a community of feeling between the governing and the go-
verned body. Not only, therefore would such an introduction
as that proposed be contrary to the principle on which t!Le
measure was founded, but it would be contrary to the feel-
ings of Englishmen, and would be productive
discontent. The proposed mode of qualifie: of general
ation was, en-
tirely a new doctrine. Where 91U1Pric4ti'
by law, it was a fixed qualification. ''t was now required
try was required to 'have.
ided AlO member for a coun-
-..
600 L 00/. a
year. The a year. A Membe-. property of the value of
for a borough was required to have
3
Acts was the qualification prescribed by some Local
of 1 000/. But the qualification re-
quires] possession ,
oy the proposed clause was, not that the individuals
_weld be positively rich, but that they should be the richest
persons in the town in which they resided. That would be to
introduce a new system, a new principle, a new practice,
which he had no doubt would prove more odious to the people
than the existing system, however odious that might be. Al-
though he did not approve of the amendments which had al-
ready been introduced into the Bill, he was anxious that the
Bill should pass and should become the law of the land; but
he was convinced that nothing could be more likely to pro-
duce a contrary result than the adoption of the amendment
'now proposed. He was convinced that if that amendment
became law, it would be productive of the most aristocratical
and oligarchical feelings; that it would be productive of feel-
ings alien and hostile to the people at large, and abhorrent to
the spirit of the times ; and he believed in his conscience,
therefore, that the adoption of it by their Lordships would be
'fatal to the Bill.

Lord L YNDHURST said that the object which he had in
view in proposing his amendment was the preservation of pro-
perty. He had shaped it with reference to that purpose, and
with reference to obtaining a sound and wholesome system of
municipal government. He had attentively listened to the ar-
guments which had been urged against his proposition, but he
remained unconvinced. At first it was contended that no qua-
lifitation whatever was necessary. The Noble Marquess and
the Noble Viscount bad, however, abandoned that ground.
For his own part he was convinced that if there were no quali-
fication, the town councils would, in many cases, be unfit to
discharge any trust, and more especially that important trust
of taxing their fellow townsmen. The Noble and Learned
. Lord here referred to several measures, and especially to the
Municipal Corporations Bill for Scotland, to show that
.the principle of qualification had been uniformly acted upon.
In the Poor-law Bill the same principle had been re-
cognised. But, it had been said that it was establishing
.a principle 'of exclusion. Why, wherever a principle of
qualification was adopted, that principle must, in one point
of view, be considered a principle of exclusion. He hat
selected the qualification' which he had proposed because he
thought it most applicable to a variety of places, and a variety
of circumstances; because he thought it the most tlexlie
principle. It was not a narrow principle. If he had taken
a fourth instead of a sixth, it would have embraced all the 10/.
householders in the kingdom? Was that barrow? On the
contrary, it was a large and ample principle. Could :t be