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London, England, 1835-08-25 00:00:00

it. He was prepared to prove it was so. His Noble Friend
had said that removing the PrOtestant Clergy from the pa-
rishes where there was no congregation, was striking a blow
at the existence of the Church ; but when their Loraiships
came to reflect on the state of these parishes—in all of them
very few Protestants=-in some none at all—he thought they,
could not deny that it was doing no injury to the Church to
rectify the evil. The next branch ofthe subject referred to educa-
tion. Whatever might be the general or abstract, view of the sub-
ject, the practical sense of mankind had established the pro-
position that the surplus funds of the Church could be applied
to no better purpose than the promotion of a system of moral
education.—( Hear.) Looking at the property of the Church
as property held in trust for public purposes, in connection
with morality and religion, he elkl not see how that proposition
could be combatted. His Noble Friend had next attacked
the funds to be created for Church purposes by the Bill before
their Lordships ; but his Noble Friend should not have con-
founded them as he did.. He should have distinguished be-
tween those which were denominated the Reserve Fund, and
those which accrued under the operation of the Church Tem-
poralities Act. The more the state of the Protestant Church
in Ireland was considered, the more incumbent it appeared on
those who were bound to protect it to put it in a condition of
safety. If the opportunity which now offered were to be lost
it might be too late to attempt it ever again. He should
give his unqualified dissent to the motion of the Noble Earl.
The Bishop of LONDON thought the Noble Lord who
had just, sat down had lamentably failed in his endeavour to
make out his proposition. He meant no personal disrespect
to the Noble Lord, but he spoke the sentiment, he believed,
of the House, when he said . that .the Noble Lord seemed
throughout his speech to be embarrassed in his eloqueuce in
an unaccountable manner. He suspected that the Noble
Lord's conscience:here heavily on his powers, and the con-
. Viction that the measure hb advocated was calculated to effect
the ruin of those very Protestant ministers whom he so highly
eulogised, had pressed with such force. upon his mind as par-
tially to paralyze his efforts. He had risen chiefly on account
of a personal allUsion to the course he had taken with regard
to the Bill respecting the Irish Church, of 1833. It had been
said that he had supported that. Bill. He confessed he. had
done so, because he had felt it necessary to make some sacri-
fice for the attainment of a great object in Ireland. He had,
however, last year declared, that although he deprecated the
Commission appointed for the purposes of that measure, he
nevertheless voted for it as a final measure. Some of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers then present could bear witness to the truth of
its having been presented as a final measure. The case was
very different as to the - present Bill, to which he professed
uncompromising hostility. Nothing but the most overwhelm-
ing neces-sity could justify the authors of the present Bill in
bringing it forward. If such a necessity existed now, it ex-
isted in 1833. Perhaps it would be alleged the necessity had
not taken a specific form in 1833. It was then only floating in
the atmosphere, without shape or consistence, and had since
taken the form of a thundtirbolt against the Church, from the
effects of which he hoped their Lordships would save them.
The Noble Lord who had just sat down told them it was ne-
cessary to pacify Ireland. Would to God any sacrifice, short
of the sacrifice of the most sacred principles, would pacify
-Ireland. —( Hear, hear, hear.) This Bill would not have that
effect, he would promise their Lordships. It did not apply to
the whole of Ireland, but was destined to extirpate Protestant
influence in parish after parish, until the whole country by de-
grees would become a solitude, so far as the followers of the
Protestant Church were concerned. The measure for this
purpose was called a measure to pacify Ireland—solitudinem
faciunt, pacem appellant ! As to the scheme of general edu-
cation contained in this measure, he held that it was the duty
and the policy of the people to furnish the means of education
for themselves. He spoke from long experience when he said
that there was always greater zeal, greater punctuality, and a
more earnest seeking after knowledge, where the people were
themselves delighted to pay something towards the maintenance
of the schools. gow, he wanted to know why an experiment
could not be made of appropriating certain public funds to the
purposes of general education ? The country was able to
afford such an outlay, and the State was materially concerned
in such an experiment. The very safety of society depended
upon the religious education of the lower orders ; and he
thought it would be much more equitable for the State to
find the necessary funds than to dip their hands into the
pockets of the Irish Church. Was there any other necessity
for this Bill ? They had- been told it was necessary to pacify
the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He (the Bishop of London)
thought their Lordships had had abundant proofs of the
futility of all such attempts.—(Cheers.) Measures had beeh
produced to their Lordships which were to bring about a
golden reign of peace, uniting all men together in the silken
bands of harmony and Christian love. These measures had
all signally failed, as their Lordships well knew.—( Hcar,
hear, hear.) Nothing that was framed for application to Ire-
land had the character of finality about it. He ought, perhaps,
to correct himself ; for there was something final in this mea •
sure, which would carry destruction along with it. The pre-
.,,,
amble of the Bill ought to state that after the year 1340 the
Protestant Church in Ireland should for ever cease.—( Hear.)
How could they expect to pacify the Catholics of Ireland—men
who, from Randolph to Al'ilale, who out-Heroded Herod. had
opposed the most virulent and uncompromising' N:sistanco to
the Protestant Church and Government? By these men the
Church of Ireland was represented to their countrymen as a
"blood-sucking Vampire—an idol of Juggernaut—a badge of
conquest, end a token .)f zervitude." These were the tennis in
which the Protestant Church was held forth, to the people of
Ireland by these to whom they looked up. How then could they
I imagine that the sacrifice of 860 parishes would satisfy the de-
mand, or cruse pacification in that country ? Would they not
hereafter demand the sacrifice of parish after parish, until every
remnant of the " badge of conquest" was removed ? Would they
not hereafter be for lopping off more branches, and for an incision
• into the stem, mid at last come with the deadly axe to cut down
the tree altogether, and cast it into the fire ?—( Hear, hear,
hear.) Finally, they would sacrifice, upon the altars of their
ambition, the holocaust of a Protestant Church. The
inmost. conviction of his soul was, that some such result
as this would be the consequence of the .present Bill.
After some further observations on' the advantages of a clergy
consisting of educated men, moving in a class of life equally
removed from luxury and poverty, the Right Rev. Prelate
proceeded to contend that the present measure was completely
inconsistent with the provisions of the Chtltrch Temporalities
Act. Their Lordships ought to deal with Ireland as if it
would some day become Protestant ; yet the direct tendency
of the measure before them was to papalize Ireland. More-
over, the passing of this measure would infuse confidence into
that body of men who were animated by malignant hostility to
die Protestant Church, and who were bent upon effecting its
destruction by storm or sap-aby force or fraud. Once let
them flesh their sword in the blood of the Irish branch of the
Establi:;lnnet, and was it to be thought tb:it they would he
lees successful when the prize was so much richer, and the in-
ducement so much more .powerful ? He was not opposed to
measures of real reform, but he could not consent to a measure
of direct spoliation such as this—a measure of which it was
not too much to say that it commenced in spoliation and sa-
crilege, and would end in ruin and confusion.—(Bear, hear. )
The Marquis of CLANRICA RDE said that the speech
of the Right Rev. Prelate had contained allusions to Pro-
testants and Protestantism, as if the Protestants of Ireland
and the Protestant religion of that country were alone de-
serving of the attention of the Legislature. 1:11it their Lord-
ships sat there-z-not all Protestants—to afford justice and pro-
tection equally to all classes of his Majesty's subjects, whether
Catholics or Protestants. If they waited till next year, they
would be compelled to do something less congenial to their
feelings than they
,were now asked to do. They could not
put off questions involving such substantial grievances as
did this, without having them pressed on them with increasing
i force.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA said it was in vain to divine
that if this Bill did not pass, the Protestant religion in Ireland
would be overturned. On the contrary, if the measure passed,
the Protestant religion in that country would he destroyed.
In his opinion it would be better for the House at once to de-
clare that the Protestant Establishment in Ireland shoeld be
destroyed, than to effect is destruction indirectly by slow and
lingering degrees.
The Marquis of C 0 N YNGHA M differed totally from every
ward that had fallen from the Noble Earl. Although a land-
lord of Ireland, it was. not from a feeling of selfishness that he
advocated this Bill. He did so for the purpose of promoting
peace and tranquillity in Ireland. If their Lordships should so
mutilate the Bill as to prevent its effecting the end for which it
was introduced, he firmly believed that they would seal the
fate of the Irish Church ; and would give her enemies such an
advantage against her, as would make them repent the day
when they refused to remove her abuses.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the gallery
was partially cleared, when
Lord PL U N KETT rose and addressed the House, saying
that he was deeply impressed with the melancholy fate that
awaited the Protestant religion in Ireland, if their Lordships
rejected this Bill. He regretted the tone in which the Right
Reverend Prelate had felt it necessary to address the House.—
a tone so different from what they had been accustomed to
hear from that Right Reverend Prelate. The Right Rev.
Prelate said that the Roman Catholics were the authors and
originators of those offensive expressions by which one class of
religionists had abused another. The Right Rev. Prelate had
alluded to the epithet of Juggernaut. Now, it so happened
that this phrase of Juggernaut was first brought forward in
the county of Cavan, by a Protestant gentleman, who accused
the Roman Catholics of being the worshippers of Juggernaut.
To which a Roman Catholic replied that he knew more of
Juggernaut than the person who made the accusation drd.
A Noble Lord bad said that Catholic emancipation had failed ;
but why had it failed ? Was it because their Lordships bad
carried that measure ? No ; but because they refused to carry
it until they were compelled by an overwhelming necessity.
There were persons who were born a year too late. With
respect to the appropriation clauses of this Bill, it had been
asserted that they were a violation of the principles by which
the Protestant religion was maintained. That was a most
gratuitous assumption. No argument had been adduced to
show that this was an attack upon the Protestant institutions.
By the sth Article of the Act of Union, the Protestant
Churches of Ireland and England were identified in doctrine,
worship, and discipline ; but was there anything in that article
which identified the temporal possessions of the Church of
Ireland with those of the Church of England? There was
nothing of the kind. The Irish temporalities were altogether
distinct from those of the Church of England. If they were
not so, they bad 'been violating the Articles of Union ever
since they were passed. It was said that by this Bill they
were robbing the • Church. Now, he considered that the
person who took the property of the Church without doing
any duty for it, was the party who really robbed the Church.
—( Hear' hear.) Such was the clergyman who received
four or five hundred a year without having a single Pro.
Vestant parishioner. No Right Rev. Prelate complained
of this species of robbery, which had been going on for the
least 15b years ; but the wou2eut a word was uttered about

appropriation, then the whole hierarchy were up with the
cry that the Church was in danger, and every consequence
was ready to be hazarded rather than such an act of spolia-
tion should be committed. 'But, so far from this being an
act of deprivation, it was an act of restitution to Protestant
purposes. The 12th of Elizabeth, chapter the first, which laid
the foundation-stone of Protestantism in Ireland, enacted that
there should be a free-school in every diocese in Ireland ; and
that the Lord Archbishop of Armagh, the Archbishop
of Dublin, the Bishop of Meath, and the Bishop of Kildare,
and their successors should have the nomination of the school-
roasters, from time to time, for ever—that was to say, every
one of them in his own diocese ; and that the Lord Lieutenant
should have the nomination of all the schoolmasters in the
other dioceses of the realm. And it was further enacted, that
the Bishops should bear one-third part of the salaries of the
schoolmasters, and the Parsons and other Ecclesiastical per-
sons should pay the other two parts. The provisions of that
statute were afterwards enforced by one so late as the statute
of George I. So far, therefore, from this Bill being an Act
of spoliation, it directed the appropriation of these funds to
the very objects to which they were originally intended to be
applied. The Noble Earl (Ripon) had argued that this was
a violation of the Church Temporalities Act ; but that Act
was not to be considered as final and irrevocable. This Act
stated that its enactments wero for the advancement of re-
ligion. Was the education of all persons, were they
Protestants or Catholics, against the advancement of re-
ligion ? On the contrary, he thought the more they
educated, the more they would enlighten, the Roman
Catholic mind, and thereby advance the Protestant religion.
If they wished the Protestant religion more prevalent, they
would not make it so by opposition, by attack, by preaching
one religion against the other.—(Hear, hear.) They all
recollected the second Reformation, which was to have made
all Ireland Protestant. He believed that some thought they
actually saw the finger of God in that second Reformation.
They all knew how it ended.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted
most devoutly that he should never see a third Reformation.—
( Cheers.) If that consummation which they desired was
ever to take place, it would not be by individual conformity,
but by prejudice being removed from the great body of the
people insensibly—by a change occurring without their know-
ing it was in progress. The educated Roman Catholic in
Ireland of this day was no more like the Roman Catholic of a
hundred years ago than he was like a Protestant. The Ro-
man Catholics of the two periods were totally different beings.
The present Roman Catholic, as compared with reference to
the Roman Catholic of former times, might be considered a
very good Protestant.—(Cheers.) The way to bring them
still closer together appeared to him for the preachers not to
be constantly pointing out the differences that existed between
them, but to expatiate rather on their points of resemblance.
—( Cheers.) He had many more remarks to make, if he
had time, but at this late hour he would not detain their Lord-
ships longer.
The Bishop of LONDON had not made the most distant
allusion to the Roman Catholic Clergy—he had spoken of
the Prelacy, and he had imputed to them nothing but the fact
of their avowed and determined opposition to the Protestant
Church, and their resolution to subvert it if possible. Of
the Roman Catholic Clergy at large, he said nothing; and
he begged to assure them that—when he made use of the
strong expression, the " malignity of faction," he did not
allude to them. _ _

Lord RODEN would take the liberty of referring to some
of the observations of the Noble and Learned Lord. At one
moment he had highly eulogized the Protestant Clergy of It:e-
land, and the next he had described them as roDbers of the
Church ; as individuals who held benefices ia Ireland taking
the emoluments, and making no return. Knowing them as
he did, he must say, in justice to them, that he did not believe
there was one of them deserving the character given them by
the Noble and Learned Lord.
Lord PLUNKETT explained.

The Earl of RODEN had no hesitation to state, that the
existence of the Protestant Establishment was the great bond
of union between the two countries; and if once that unfor-
tunate moment should arrive, when they would rashly lay their
hands on the property of the Church—( Hear, hear)—`.o rob
it of its rights—( Hear, hear)—that moment they would seal
the doom, and terminate the connection between the two
countries.--( Cheers from the Opposition benches.) This was
the language of the Noble and Learned Lord in 1824, and
this was the language which he would take the liberty of
adopting as his own in 1835.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that
in the division their Lordship would show that, the House of
Lords were not to be put down by any set of individuals Wail
might endeavour to rouse the spirit of the country to over-rule
their Lordships' independent judgment. As to the threats
which were to be heard abroad, having reference to their con-
duct on this occasion, he trusted their Lordships would prove
to the country by their vote of to-night, that if the Peers of
England were to fall, they would fall in preserving the dearest
rights of Englishmen, and in protecting the Protestant faith,
which there was an attempt made now to destroy by a faction,
under the influence of what was-called the spirit of the age.--
( Opposition cheers. )- Be cared not fdr the arguments of the
Noble Lords on the other side of the House—(A laugh and
cheers)—arguments they bad none—assertions they had
plenty. The Noble Lord at the head of the Administration
acknowledged that though he was a party to the Bill he could
not justify it on principle. He gave the Noble Lord credit
for his candour ; he had manifested on this occasion that
openness of character for which ho was distinguished—( Hear,
hear) ;—but as regarded the measure which the Noble Lord
recommended, he must say that it partook too much of the'
complexion of a restless disposition not to alarm every sober-
minded man. He felt that it was necessary in these times to
speak out.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord PLUNKETT said, with reference to the quotations
made from a speech formerly delivered by him, it might be
sufficient for him to declare that he had changed his opinion—
that he had yielded to necessity—( Hear, hear, hear): but he
begged to say that he had not changed his opinion ; he consi-
dered himself now as not only not making any attack on the
funds of the Protestant Establishment, but as apprying them
simply to their original purposes, and thus, by the most effec-
tual means in his power, strengthening the Establishment—
( Cheers. )
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he could not
allow this question to go to a vote without stating, in a few
words, the ground on which he formed his opinions. And he
considered this the more necessary after the speech of the
Right Rev. Prelate, who had spoken:with an ability that did
not surprise him, because be had listened to him on many other
occasions with the highest degree of admiration. The Right
Rev. Prolate, in his able speech, appeared to call on some of
his Majesty's Ministers, who were responsible for introducing
this measure, and also the measure which he presumed was a
final measure in 1833, to state what' was the difference between
the circumstances of 1833 and those of the present time,
which imposed on the King's Ministers the necessity of pro-
posing a new system. He would tell the Right Rev. Pre-
late that there had been a very great change in the circum-
stances, and that it had shown itself to be of a nature to
endanger the safety of the Church of 'lreland, the object of
this Bill being to maintain it. Such bad been the change,
that a Noble Baron sitting on the opposite benches bad told
their Lordships, that the official knowledge he obtained during
the short time he had a scat in the Cabinet had convinced
him there were circumstances in the state of Ireland which
called for au immediate measure for the security and pay-
ment of the Church—a measure such as was produced by
this Bill taking_ it altogether. However disposed their Lord-
ships might be to separate the appropriation clause from the
rest of the Bill, he begged to tell them that they could not do
it.--( Cheers.) With this clause they would lose that provi-
sion for the Church of Ireland which the clause was calcu-
lated to secure. The Right Rev. Prelate said he would sup-
port Ireland, as if he would one day become Protestant. The
experience of two hundred years, confirmed by that of the last
fifty years, told them that there was no probability of Ireland
becoming generally Protestant, so long as they acted under
that delusion. To consider all the acts and establishments in
which Ireland was interested with reference to her becoming
some day Protestant, was likely to make her less Protestant
than she otherwise would be. He believed that it was because
they bad so acted—because they had so blinded and de-
luded themselves—that they had introduced that state of things
which the Right Rev. Prelate had not entered into, because it
would not suit the purposes of his arguments. While this prin-
ciple had been in operation, Romanism had gone on progres-
sively increasing; so that wherever Protestantism was 1 to 3,
it was now in theproportion Of Ito 9. He could hardly suppose
the Right Rev. Prelate to be serious, when he argued, that
in England they had less need of an Established Church
because the Protestants were so numerous; while in Ireland
we had the greater need of it, because there the Protestants
were so few. That principle, if good for any thing, would
go to this extent, that the amount of the establishment ought
to be in proportion to the smallness of the number of its vo-
taries. The principle amounted also to this, that that ought
to be the established religion which was the religion of the
minority.. This would be in direct opposition to the course
which was taken in Scotland. The Act under which the esta-
blished religion of that country existed, recited, as a reason
for the change, that their religion was the religion of the
majority. He had not the smallest idea, however, of trans-
ferring the established religion to the religion of the majority
in Ireland. He must admit that the case of that country was
one singularly complicated and artificial. Even if their Lord-
ships should reconcile to themselves such a transfer, be thought
it would be attended with every species of evil and danger.
......( Hear.) Ministers were compelled to adopt a measure
of an anomalous nature, that being a great anomaly with
whiCh they had to deal. The more they delayed the remedy,
the worse the disorder would become, and the more diffi-
cult of cure. He contended that no injury was done to any
lay Protestant in Ireland by this Bill. In considering the
Church he viewed it not so much with reference to its
ministers as to the laity of which it was composed. The
Noble Marquis then referred to the smaller provisions made
for the clergy in districts where there were but few Pro-
testants, and contended that the principle laid down was
sanctioned by ancient custom. He referred to a casejn which
the living was 900/. a year in tithe, and 5001. a year in glebe,
in which there was no church, no glebe house, and no Pro-
testant rector, the service being performed by a curate in a
coadh-house. He contended that the Protestant religion was
more likely to be encouraged than otherwise, by the establish-
ment of such places of devotion as were adapted to the con-
gregation. He had under his hand a vast number of details,
into which he would go, were it not that he was reluctant to
trouble their Lordships with them at that late period. By
passing this Bill the House would be taking another important
step towards the tranquillisation of Ireland. Already one im-
portant step towards the achievement of that end had been
made in the measure for altering the mode of collecting tithe ;
yet when that measure was introduced, many excellent persons
evinced a similar alarm to that now exhibited ou the other side
,of the House, and exclaimed, " If you attack the system of
tithes in Ireland, you will endanger the safety of the Church
itself." Yet, looking at the ooliseclueuces which had resulted

from the passing of that measure, how often must those who
had opposed its progress, and who were sincerely attached to
the interests of the Protestant Church, lament that it was not
adopted sooner. But unfortunately on that occasion, as on this,
their Lordships were persuaded that by a little delay, they
would reconcile the people of Ireland to the system of collect-
ing tithe—the result has shown how completely they were mis-
taken. Not only had the old system of tithes been left to
rankle in the feelings of the people, but the system of com-
position excellent in itself, came too late, and their Lordships
wore now compelled 'to admit, as the late Government was
compelled to admit, that the composition for tithe could never
be collected as it might previously have been collected, and
nothing short of military force could compel the payment of a
tax which, of all taxes, to all people, and in all times, bad
always been the most obnoxious. Charlemagne himself had
found great difficulty in compelling the payment of this odious
impost, when he first imposed it on some of the Continental
States. One of the Ministers of that powerful Monarch, in
reporting to his master, said, " You will do well to abandon
the collection of tithe in this country (Germany), for the
people are not yet converted to your faith, and tithe is not a
tax that can be collected from a people who do not believe in
your religiou."—( Hear, hear.) This Bill abolished tithe and
provided a liberal maintenance for the clergy, which it placed
on a far safer and more sure basis. And whilst it provided
thus beneficially for the future, it afforded an indemnity for
the past. It provided for the whole of the arrears of tithe,
and placed the Protestant Clergyman at once in a situation .of
independence and respectability. He did not mean to say that
this Bill was free from anomaly or objection, because it was
impossible that any measure relating to a country which was
of itself a bundle of anomalies, should be free from anomaly
or objection : but he maintained that the Bill now proposed
would establish a state of things infinitely less objectionable
than the system which at present existed, and at the same time
would contribute to the stability and usefulness of the Church
Establishment. It proposed no confiscation for the benefit of
the Government, but the application of the surplus Church
revenues for the general instruction and improvement of the
people.—( Hear, hear.)
After a few words from the Bishop of LONDON, which
were inaudible, and from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE in
reply, which were also inaudible, _ _

Lord BROUGHAM said that the grounds on which he
should give his vote had been so amply stated by his Noble
Friends who had spoken before him, that he did not think it
necessary to say any thing in addition to what they had stated.
But he could not help asking their Lordships, before they went
to a vote on this question, just to consider one party, whose
interests he thought were at stake, and on whose behalf he
should like to address their Lordships in the character of coun-
sel on that occasion—he meant the Protestant Clergy of the
Church Of Ireland.---( Hear, hear.) It was mighty easy for a
Noble Earl on the bench opposite, than whom no one could
ever express himself more honestly, more sincerely, and, there-
fore, in his (Lord Brougham's) mind, more satisfactorily—it
was mighty easy for that Noble Earl, in his great enthusiasm
for the Church of Ireland—in his misplaced zeal for the cause
of the grotestant Clergy—to say that he was prepared to lay
down his fortune or his life in the cause of the Protestant
Church, and defence of the Protestant Ministers, for whom the
Noble Earl had so great a respect—and it was mighty well for
the Right Rev. Prelate to say, " Let us die for the Church of
Ireland—let us fight the battle of the Church of Ireland on
English ground ;" and it was also mighty well and mighty
easy for the Noble Duke on the bench opposite to say, " I
am prepared, on behalf of the principle, to make any sacri-
fice." It was mighty well for all this to be said by the Noble
Duke and the Right Rev. Prelate, and the Noble Earl ; but
there were two ways of making a sacrifice, two ways of lay-
ing down fortunes, two ways of laying down lives. The one
was to say you were ready to do it, when you were certain you
would not be called upon to do so ; and there was also an-
other way somewhat similar—the doing it not in your own
person—doing it vicariously, and, as it were, by proxy. You
say you will lay down your whole fortune, and consent to
'starve, before you will assent to certain propOsitiens ; but all
the while you are making that assertion, you know very well
you will never be called upon to fulfil it, though you do know
that by the course you are taking, you are causing others to
starve---actually and positively to starve, not one by one
—not one here and one there; but everywhere and in all
parts of the country—actually and positively to starve in the
way, that figuratively speaking, you say you are willing to
starve yourselves. It was for these persons, for the 'Pro-
testant clergy of the Established Church, that he presumed
to address their Lordships. If this Bill were not allowed to
pass, what probability was there of tithe being collected for
the next 12 calendar months? Rejecting these 28 clauses,
had their Lordships considered- what provisions they would
introduce in their room ? Unless some adequate provision
were made, the whole of the Protestant Clergy of Ireland
would be plunged into a situation not only of great distrces
and great suffering, but of great hazard. Unless this Bill
were passed, they would, in fact, be called upon instantly to
make good 650,0001., the remaining, two-thirds of the
6,000,0001., which a few years since was advanced for
their relief. As the law now stood, lio option was left for
the Attorney-General as to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
unless they proceeded at once against the clergy for the re-
covery of that sum, they would themselves be liable to im-
peachment. With these twenty-eight eta.tises" omitted, the
Bill would go back to the House of Commons only to be ex-
tinguished.—(llear, hear.) He repudiated with scorn and
i:nlignation the charge that the Bill, as it stood, was a Bill of
spoliation, and robbery. It was not a measure of spoliation
and' robbery. If there was any spoliation or robbery at all
is the Bill, the Church Temporalities. Bill was just as-much
a measure of spoliation and robbery. Yet the Church Tem-
poralities Bill had many advocates and supporters on
the opposite side of the House. Before their Lordships
omitted this part of the Bill, it was fitting that they should
consider the grave and deep responsibility they were about
to incur. The other House of Parliament would pass no
Bill in the shape in which they should choose to mould
it, merely because they desired them to pass it in that
shape. If in this instance they should do so, he (Lord B.)
should be, as regarded the Irish Clergy, agreeably disap-
pointed. But from what he had seen of the other House, be
did not believe they would agree to the Bill in its altered
shape: The Members of the House of Commons were as
fOnd of their privileges as their Lordships were of theirs.
They would have the Bill with the twenty-eight clauses, or
their Lordships might depend upon it they would not have it
at all: Their Lordships eight succeed that night, but the
Commons would succeed to-morrow night. But there was
this difference between the sort of success that would be en-
joyed by both Houses. Their Lordships' triumph would end
with throwing out the Bill, because they were engaging with
toe Commons in a contest in which, in the long run, the Com-
mons must inevitably prevail.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH admitted the difficulty of
dealing with the question, but attributed the whole of the diffi-
culty to the conduct of the Gevernment.
The Earl of WICKLOW said that it was a great error to
suppose that the million had been given to the Clergy—it was
in reality voted for the relief of the defaulters in tithe. It was,
too, in consequence of the unstatesmanlike declaration of the
then Lord Althorp, that all tithe would from the date at which
he spoke be abolished, that such a vote was rendered at all ne-
cessary.
Lord HATHERTON rose amid cries of " Question." He
merely wished to refer to the observation made by the Noble
Earl who had just addressed the House, with respects to
what he was pleased to call the unstatesman conduct of
Earl Spencer, in declaring in his place in Parliament that
no more tithes should be collected in Ireland.—( Hear.)
Having been present at the time when the ascribed decla-
ration was said to have been made, he might take the liberty
of saying that the Noble Earl's version of it was not
correct.—( Hear, hear.) The discussion arose on the propo-
sal for voting 600,000/. to the clergy in consequence of the
arrears of 1831—that year in which a sum of 12,0001. was col-
lected at a cost of 28,0001., and during which a series of
collisions between the King's troops and the peasantry took
place which assumed very much the character of civil war.
It was with reference to those events that Lord Spencer de-
clared that his Majesty's Government would desist from such
a mode of collecting arrears of tithe. It was from this an-
nouncement that the misapprehension as to the collection of
tithes; in any shape, had taken place.—(Hear.) -
Lord MELBOURNE—The subject has been so fully dis-
cussed on the introduction, and I had then such an opportu-
nity of stating my views and opinions respecting it, that it is
not now my intention to take up your time by any remarks
with regard to it ; but I think it right to express it as my
conviction that you ought to understand distinctly the situa-
tion in which you stand.—( Hear, hear.) I think it right that
you should take the step which you intend to take with your
eyes open ; that you should be fully aware of the conse-
quences of it • and that you should look well to that which
has been so fairly and distinctly, and with so much feeling,
placed before you—namely, the situation in which you will
leave the Protestant clergy of Ireland by the vote to which
you seem inclined to come.—( Cheers.) A Noble Lord at
the beginning of the debate thought fit to say that he would
make such amendments as he thought fit and proper in this
Bill—that he would make it as perfect as be could—that
those parts which he considered objectionable he would
leave out—and that he would place on us the responsibility of
refusing to carry on the Bill in its altered form. My Lords,
the two principles involved in the Bill have been de-
cided by resolutions of the House of Commons--(Cheers)—
they are closely connected on the grounds of reason and corn-
An sense • they are subjects naturally close allied ; they be-
long entirely to one another; and, in my opinion, it is impos-
sible to settle the one in a manner which would be satisfactory
to the people of Ireland or of this country, without settling the
other.—(Cheers.) Therefore I have determined, that if you
carry this proposition—if you leave out this clause—l shall
certainly not be a party to proceeding any further with the
measure.—( Loud cheering.) I shall decline to take any steps
towards sending it back to the House of Commons in such a
shape as that it is impossible that it can, either in point of form
or principle, be agreed to.—( Cheers.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON—One word, in conse-
quence of what has fallen from the Noble Viscount. The
Noble Viscount has stated what were his intentions in case
the proposition of my Noble Friend should be carried. The
Noble Viscount, as well as the Noble and Learned Lord
(Lord Brougham) alluded to the consequences which
would befal the unfortunate persons who were the objects
of this measure. My Lords, I earnestly entreat notwith-
standing the menaces of the Noble Viscount and the Noble
and Learned Lord, that you will agree to tbe motion of
my Noble Friend. (Loud. cheers from the Opposition.) The
Noble Viscount said that those parts of the Bill to which you
are disposed to consent, and those which you feel it your
duty to reject, are intimately connected. For soy part, ,I can
only say that I have liatened with the utmost attention to the
course of argument on this subject, and I must declare 'that I
cannot trace that connection.—( Cheers.) I have looked into
the accoluitsl have examined with the utnloat care and at.