The Sun.
London, England, 1866-02-23 00:00:00

President Johnson and the Negroes.

A delegation of coloured representatives from different
States of America now in Washington to urge the interests
of the coloured people before the Government had an inter-
view with President Johnson on the 7th insf Among the
members of the delegation was Frederick Douglass. The
President shook hands with him first, and then with each
of the other members. The first speaker (Mr. G. T. Down-

ing), who addressed the President, said that the coloured
people were not satisfied with the amendment prohibiting
slavery, but wished it to be enforced by appropriate legis-
lation. They cherished the hope that they might be fully
enfranchised, not in one district alone, .but throughout the
land : anything less than that would be less than their just
due. The rest of the proceedings are thus reported in the
Nsw Yell; p, y•rs :
Frederick Douglass advanced and addressed the Presi-
) dent, saying—Mr. President, We are not hero to enlighten
t you, sir, as to your duties as the chief magistrate of this
• republic, but to show our respect, and to preient in brief
) the claims of our race to your favourable consideration. In
• the order of Divine Providence you are placed in a position
where you have the power to save or destroy us—to bless
or blast us—l mean our whole race. Your noble and hu-
mane predecessor placed in our hands the sword to assist
in saving the nation, and we do hope that you, his able
successor, will favourably regard the placing in our hands
the ballot with which to save ourselves. We shall submit
no argument on that point. The fact that we are the sub-
jects of Government and subject to taxation, to volunteer
in the service of the country, subject to being drafted, sub-
ject to bear the burdens of the State, makes it not improper
that we should ask to share in the privileges of the condi-
tion. I have no speech to make on this occasion. I simply
make these observations as a limited expression of the views
and feelings of the delegation with which I have come.
The following is substantially the response of the Presi-
dent :—ln reply to some of your inquiries—not to make a
speech about this matter, for it is always best to talk plainly
and distinctly about such questions—l will say that if I
have not given evidence in my former course that I am a
friend of humanity, and to that portion of it which con-
stitutes the colon• ed population, I can give no evidence
hereafter. Everything that I have had, both as regards life
and property, has been perilled in this cause; and I feel and
think that I understand, not to be egotistical, what should
be the true direction of this question, and what course of
policy would result in the amelioration and ultimate eleva-
tion, not only of the coloured, but of the great mass of the
people of the United States. I say that if I have not given
evidence that I am a friend of humanity, and especially the
friend of the coloured man, in my past conduct, there is
nothing that I can dc that would. I repeat—all that I
possessed—life, liberty, and property—have been put in
connection with that question, when I had every induce-
ment held out to take the other course, by adopting which
I would have accomplished; perhaps, all that the most
ambitious might have desired. If I know myself and the
feelings of my own heart, they have been for the coloured
man. I have owned slaves and bought slaves, but I never
sold one. I might say, however, that practically, so far
as my connection with slaves has gone, I have been their
slave instead of they being mine. Some have even fol-
lowed me here, while others are occupying and enjoying
my property with my consent. For the coloured race my
means, my time, my all have been perilled; and now, at
_ _ _

this late day, after giving evidence that is tangible, that is
practical, I am free to say that I do not like to be an aigned
by some who can get un handsomely rounded periods and

deal in rhetoric, and talk about abstract ideas of liberty,
who never perilled life, liberty, or property. This kind of
theoretical hollow friendship amounts to but very little.
While 1 say I am a friend of the coloured race, I do not
want to adopt a policy I believe will end in a contest be-
tween the races which, if persisted in, will result in the ex-
termination of ono or the other. God forbid I should be
engaged in such work. Now it is always best to talk prac-
tically and in a common-sense way. I have said, and I re-
peat here, that if the coloured men in the United States
could find no other Moses, nor any Moses that would be
more able and efficient than myself, I would be their Moses
to lead them from bondage to freedom ; that I would pass
them from a land where they had lived in slavery to a land,
if it were within our reach, of freedom. I would be willing

to pass with them through the Red Sea to the land of pro-
mise, to the'land of liberty. But lam not willing, under
either circumstance, to adopt a policy which I believe will
only result in the sacrifice of his life and the shedding of
his blood. I think 1 know what I say. I feel what I say,
and I feel well assured that if the policy urged by some bo
persisted in it will result in great injury to the white as
well as coloured man. There is a great deal of talk about
the sword in one hand accomplishing an end, -and the ballot
accomplishing another at the ballot-box. These things aro
all very well, and sometimes have forcible application. We
talk about justice, we talk about right, we say the white
man has been in the wrong in keeping the black man so
long in slavery. That is all true. Again, we talk about
the declaration of independent equality befooe the law. You
under Stand all that, and know haw to appreciate it. But
now let us look each other in the face. Let us go to the
great mass of coloured men in the slave States. Letus take
the condition in which they are in at the present time, and
it is bad enough, we all know, and suppose by some migic
touch you could say to every one," You shall vote to-mor-
row." How much would that ameliorate their condition at
this time? Let us get closer to the subject and talk about it.
What relation has the coloured man and the white man
heretofore occupied in the South? 1 opposed slavery
on two grounds. First, it was a great monopoly, enabling
those who controlled it to constitute an aristocracy, enab-
ling the few to derive great profits, and rule the many
with an iron rod, as it were ; and that is one great ob-
jection to it in a government, it being a monopoly. 1 was
opposed to it, secondly, upon the abstract principle. In
getting clear of a monopoly we were getting clear of
slavery at the same time. So ycu see there.were two ends
accomplished in the accomplishment of the ono.
Mr. Douglass—Mr. President, do you wish—
The President—l am not quite through yet. Slavery
has been abolished. A great national guarantee has been
given—one that cannot be revoked. I was getting at the
relation that existed between the white man and the black
man. A very small proportion of white persons, compared
with the whole number of such, owned the coloured people
of the South. I might instance the State of Tennessee. In
illustration, there were 27 non-slaveholders, and yet the
slave power controlled that State. Let us talk about this
matter as it is. Although the coloured man was in slavery
there, and owned as property, in the sense and in the lan-
guage of that locality, and of that community, yet in com-
paring his condition and his position with the non-slave-
holder, he usually estimated his importance just in propor-
tion to the number of slaves that his master owned with
the non-slaveholder. Have you never lived upon a plan-
tation ?

Mr. Douglass —I have, your excellency.
The President When you would look cver and see a
man who had a large family, struggling hard upon a poor
piece of land, you thought a great deal less of him than you
did of your own master ?
Mi. Douglass—Not I.

The President—Well, I know such was the caso with a
large majority of you. In those sections where such is the
case, we know there is an enmity— we know there is a hate.
The poor white man, on the other hand, was opposed to the
slave and his master, for the coloured man and his master,
combined, kept Lim in slavery by depriving him of a fair
participation in the labour and production of the rich lands
of the country. Do you know that the coloured man in
going to hunt a master, as they call it, for the next year,
preferred hiring to a man who owned slaves rather than
to one who did not? I know the facts, at all events.
Mr. Douglass—Because they treated him better.

The President—They did not consider it quite as re-
spectable to hire to a man who did not own negroes as to
hire to one who did.

Mr. Douglass—Because he wouldn't be treated as well.
The President—Then that is another argulitent in favour
of what I am going to say. It shows that the coloured
man appreciated the slave owner more highly than he did
the man who did not own slaves. Hence the enmity be-
tween the coloured man and the non-sluveholdors. The
white man was permitted to vote before the government
was derived from him. Ire is a part and parcel of the poli-
tical machinery now, by rebellion or revolution ; and when
you come back to the objects of this war you find that the
abolition of slavery was not one of the objects. Congress
and the President declared that it was on our part in order
to suppress the rebellion. The abolition of slavery has
come as an incident to the suppression of a great rebellion
—as an incident we should give to it proper direction. The
coloured man went into this rebellion a slave; by the ope-
ration of the rebellion he came out a freedman, equal to a
freedman in other portions of the country. There is a
great deal done for hint on this point. The non-slave-
holder who was thus forced into the rebellion, and was as
loyal as those that lived beyond the limits of the State,
was carried into it, and his property, and in a number
of instances the lives of such were sacrificed, and he who
has survived has come out of it with nothing gained,
but a great deal lust. Now, upon a principle of justice,
should they be placed in a condition different from
what tEk y were before ? Oa the one hand, one has gained
agreat deal; on the other hand, ono has lost a great
deal, and in a political point of view scarcely stands where
he did before. Nov, we
are talking about where. we are
going to begin. We
havehe querygot at tchoeinhetstt
ue thatvh
07:etre
tdh be
se
e-
tween the two races.
two races, situated as they were before, without prepara-
tion,P
without time for
o the slightest improvement—
whether the one should be r
passion and excitement to be ap-
plased, and without timeallot turned
loose upon the other and
be thrown together at the b
boxhrewithq_‘su? i
erycomes up, Will
thisthi
think
enmityn
(la
enrd-
hate existing between them ? T
we not there commence a wet of
a whent
stand this thing; and especially is this the case
force it upon a people without their consent.' y
e ot l you
spoken about government. Where is power derived from e?
We say it is derived from the people. Let us take it To
and refer to the district of Columbia by way of illustration.'
Stippose, for instance, here' in this political community,
which, to a certain extent, must have government, must
have law, and, putting it upon the broadest, basis you can,
take into consideration the relation which the white has
heretofore borne to the coloured race, is it proper so to
force upon, this community, without their consent, the

elective franchise, without regard to colour, making it
universal ? Now, where do you begin ? Government
must have a controlling power—must have a lodgment•
For instance, suppose Congress should pass a law autho-
rising an election to bo held, at which all over twenty-one
years of age, without regard to colour, should be allowed
to vote, and a majority should decide at such election that
the elective franchise should be universal, what would you
do about it ? Who would settle it ? Do you deny that
first great principle of the right of the people to govern
themselves ? Will you resort to an arbitrary power, and
say a majority of the people shall receive a state of things
they are opposed to ?
Mr. Douglass—That was said before the war.
The President—l am now talking about a principle, not
about what somebody said. _ .

Mr. Downing—Apply what you have said, Mr. Presi-
dent, to South Carolina, for instance.

The Pre.ldent—Suppose you nn to South Carolina or to
Ohio, that does not change the principle at all. The query
to which I have referred still comes up when go7ernment
is undergoing a fundamental change. Government com-
menced upon this principle, and has existed upon it, and
now you propose to incorporate an element that did not
exist before in it. I say the query comes up in undertak-
ing this thing, whether we have a right to make a change
in regard to the elective franchise- in Ohio, for instance.
Whether we shall not let the people in that State decide
the matter for themselves. Each community is better pre-
pared to determine the depository of political power than
anybody else, and it is for the Legislature_ or the people of
Ohio to say who shall vote or not for the Congress of the
United States. I might go down hero to the ballot box
to-morrow and vote directly for universal suffrage, but if a
great majority of the people said "No," I should consider
it would be tyrannical and arbitrary in me to attempt' to
force it upon them without their will. It is a fundamental
text in my creed that the will of the people must be obeyed
when fairly expressed. Is there anything wrong or unfair
in that?

Mr. Douglass (smiling)—A great deal wrong, Mr. Presi-
dent, with all respect.
The President—The people must determine this ques-
tion for themselves. Ido not want to be engaged in a
work that will commence a war of races. In each com-
munity if a man demeans himself well, and shows that this
new state of affairs will operate well, ho will be protected
in all his rights and given every possible advantage by that
community, when they have become reconciled socially and
politically to certain things. Then will this now order of
affairs work harmoniously. But forced upon the people
before they aro prepared for it, it will be re-
sisted and work inharmoniously. I feel a conviction
that, forcing that matter upon tho people, upon the com-
munity, will result in the injury of both races and the ruin
of one or the other. God knows I have no desire but the
good of the whole human race. I would it were so thatall
you advocated could be done in the twinkling of an eye ;
but it is not in the nature of things, and I do not assume
or pretend to be wiser than Providence, or stronger than
the laws of nature. Let us now seek to discover the laws
governing this question. There is a great law controlling
it. Let us endeavour to find out what the law is and con-
form our action to it. All the details will then properly
adjust themselves, and work well in the end. God knows
that anything I can do in the mighty process by which the
great end is to be reached—anything I can do to elevate
the races, to soften and ameliorate their condition, I will
do ; and to be able to do so is the sincere desire of my
heart. lam glad to have met you, and I thank you for the
compliments you have paid me.
Mr. Douglass—l have to return you our thanks, Mr.
President, for so kindly granting us this interview. We
did not come here expecting to argue this question with
your excellency, but simply to state what were our views
and wishes iu the premises. If we worn disposed to argue
the question, and you wouldgrant us permission, of course
wo would endeavour to controvert some of the positions
you have assumed.
Mr. Downing—Mr. Douglass, I take it that the Presi-
dent, by his kind expressions and his very full treatment
of the subject, must have contemplated some reply to the
views which he has advanced, and in which we certainly
do not concur, and I say this with due respect.
The President—l thought you expected me to indicate
to some extent what my views were on the subjects
touched upon in your statement.
Mr. Downing—We aro very happy indeed to have heard
them.

Mr. Douglass—lf the President will allow me, I would
like to say one or two words in reply.
The President—All I have done is simply to indicate
what my views are, as I supposed you expected me to
from your address.
Mr. Douglass—My own impression is that the very
thing your excellency would avoid in the Southern States
can only be avoided by the very measure that we propose;
and I would state to my brother delegates that, because
perceive the President has taken. strong ground in favour of
a given pollen and distrusting my own ability to remove
any of those impressions which he has expressed, I thought
we had better end the interview with the expression of
thanks. (Addressing the President.) But if your excel-
lency will be pleased to hear, I would like to say a word or
two in regard to that one matter of the enfranchisement of
the blacks as a means of preventing the very thing which
your excellency seems to apprehend—this is, a conflict of
races.

The President—l repeat, I merely wanted to indicate
my views n reply to your address, and not to enter into
any genera fl controversy, as I could not well do so under
the circumstances. Your statement was a very frank ono
and I thought it was due to ycu to meet it in the same
spirit.
Mr. Douglass—Thank you, sir.
The President—l think you will find, so far as the South
is concerned, that, if you will all inculcate this idea in
connection with the one you urge, the coloured people can
live and advance in civilisation to better advantage else-
where than crowded together in the South ; it would bo
better for them.

Mr. Douglass—But the masters have the making of the
laws, and we cannot get away from the plantations.
The President—What prevents you ?
Mr. Douglass—We have not the simple right of loco-
motion thrOugh the Southern States.

The President—lf the master now controls the freed-
man, would he not control his vote ?

- a---- -

Election Intelligence.

- - 41. -

CITY OF LONDON.

Mr. Douglass—Let the negro once understand that he
has an organic right to vote, and he will raise up a party
in the South among the poor cvho will rally with him.
There is this conflict that you speak of between the wealthy
slaveholder and the poor man.
_ _ _

Tha President—Yon touch right upon the point there.
There is this conflict, and hence I suggest emigration if he
cannot got employment in tho South. IL has it in his
power to go where he can get it.
In parting, the President said they were both desirous
of accomplishing the same ends, but proposed to do so by
following different roads.

Mr. Douglass, on turning to leave, remarked to his fel-
low-delegates, " The President sends us to the people, and
we will have to go and get the people right."
The President:-Yes, sir. I have great faith in the
people. I believe that they will do what is just, and have
no doubt they will settle this question right, and hope that
it will be submitted to them for final action.
The delegates then bowed and withdrew.

On the day succeeding that on which this interview took
place, the delegation published a reply to the President, in
which they state their belief that the views and opinions
he had expressed were "entirely unsound," and prejudicial
to the highest interests of the negro race and of the coun-
try. They take exception to his attempt to base a policy
adverse to the enfranchisement of the blacks upon an al-
leged hostility of the former slaves to the poor whites of
the South. They urge that ho commits an error in draw-
ing an argument from an incident of a state of slavery,
and making it a basis for a policy adapted to a state of
freedom. They add:—
Besides, even if it were true, as you allege, that the
hostility of the blacks toward the poor whites must neces-
sarily be the same in a state of freedom as in a state of
slavery, in the name of Heaven, we reverently ask, how
can you, in view of your professed desire to promote the
welfare of the black man, deprive him of all means of de-
fence, and clothe him whom you regard as his enemy in
the panoply of plitical power? Can it be that you would
recommend a policy which would arm the strong and cast
down the defenceless ? Can you by any possibility of rea-
soning regard this as just, fair, or wise? Experience proves
that those aro oftenest abused who can be abused with the
greatest impunity. Men aro whipped oftenest who aro
whipped easiest. Peace between races is not to be secured
by degrading ono race and exalting another; by giving
power to one race and withholding it from another ; but by
maintaining a state of equal justice between all parties.
Of the colonisation theory that you were pleased to broach
very much could be said. It is impossible to suppose, in
view of the usefulness of tho black man in time of peace as
a labourer in the South and in time of war as a soldier in
the North, and the growing respect for his rights among
the people, and his increasing adaptation to a high state of
civilisation in this his native land, there can ever come a
time when he can be removed front this country without a
terrible shock to its prosperity and peace. Besides, the
worst enemy of the nation could not cast upon its fair
name a greater infamy than to suppose that negroes could
be tolerated among them in a state of the most degrading
slavery and oppression, and must be cast away and driven
into exile for no other cause than having been freed from
their chains.

GRANTS BY THE MIDDLESEX MAGISTRATES.-
Yesterday the Middlesex magistrates agreed that the sum
of £5OO be granted by the court, to be raised in the usual
manner, to enable the committee of visitors of the Middle-
sex Industrial School to erect on the premises at Feltham
two masts with spars, yards, sails, and rigging for the
purpose of instructing the boys in the manner of handling
repos and sails, with the view to their future employment
in the merchant service. - Further, that the sum of X 4,500
be granted by the court, to bo raised in the usual manner,
for the cost of the property adjoining the House of Cor-
rection at Coldbath-fields, required for the purpose.of ren-
dering more commodious the said House of Correction ;
and also " that the visiting justices of the House of Cor-
rection at Coldbath-fields be authorised to expend a sum
not exceeding £9OO in the alteration and strengthening
of the old treadwheels at that prison."

TBE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING,

The Lifeboat and its Work.

A lecture on the lifeboat and its work was de-
livered last night at the Scientific Institution,
Wandsworth-road, by R. Lewis, Esq., barrister,
secretary of the NationalLifeboatlnstitution. Hav-
ing alluded briefly to the pitiable condition of the
shipwrecked sailor, he showed that the number
of vessels that entered inwards and cleared
outwards from British ports in the course of the
year was about 300,000 ; that the registered ton-
nage of the same was 60,000,000 ; and that the
value of the imports and exports on board the
vessels was more than £400,000,000. He observed
that the first lifeboat was invented about 80 years
ago. There were many doubts as to the original in-
ventor of the lifeboat, but to Henry Greathead, of
South Shields, was undoubtely due the credit of
having built a lifeboat, which was afterwards used
with great success. The self-righting lifeboat of
the National Lifeboat Institution was brought out
in the year 1850. It was invented by the late Mr.
James Beeching, of Great Yarmouth ; but since
that period it had undergone very important modi-
fications from practical experience by the National
Lifeboat Institution. The lifeboats of this class
built in England were now found in many of our
colonies, and on the shores of nearly every maritime
country. These boats saved on the shores of Eng-
land, which extends over 5,000 miles, every year
between►soo and 600 lives from shipwreck. The
crews who went afloat in them were paid 10s. each
man for day-work and 20s. for night-work, and
these rewards were often doubled by the institution.
The cost of a lifeboat station complete was about
£620. The expense of a lifeboat, its equipment, and
transporting carriage was £420. The boats were
exercised every quarter, so that they might be well
prepared for any emergency that might take place
in gales of wind. The National Lifeboat Institution
had now 162 lifeboats under its management. The
local residents and fishermen on the coasts vied with
each other in their hearty co-operation with the
society in carrying out its great and philanthropic
work. Mr. Lewis then detailed several very inte-
resting and gallant lifeboat services. He afterwards
fully described the construction of the boat, and
showed how it was made to self-right and self-eject
the water, by some interesting experiments with a
model in some water. He afterwards explained
clearly the construction of the lifeboat carriage,
which was often of the utmost consequence to
the efficiency of the lifeboat. The number of
shipwrecks upon the coasts of the United King-
dom was about 2,000 annually. It appeared
that the institution had contributed altogether to
the saving of about 15,000 persons, and had ex-
pended £130,730 on its lifeboat stations. It had in
its service two captains of the Royal Navy as its
inspectors of lifeboats, one of whom was nearly al-
ways on the coast looking after the lifeboat stations.
The success of the operations of the Lifeboat Insti-
tution was one of the marvels of the age, and it
could only be accounted for in the forcible language
of Miss Florence Nightingale, when she recently
said to him (Mr. Lewis), that " God had manifestly
blessed his work." The assiduity and earnestness of
its committee and officers were beyond all praise ;
12 or 14 years ago the institution had only 12 life-
boats. It had now a fleet of 162 boats. Its income
was then about £2OO a year, and it was now up-
wards of £30,000. The work of the National Life-
boat Institution excited the admiration of foreigners,
and contributions were received by it from all parts
of the world. It sometimes happened that foreign
sailors who were unfortunately wrecked on our coasts
and saved by the lifeboats of the society sent con-
tributions to the lifeboat fund on their return home.
Mr. Lewis expressed a confident hope that England,
who looked on the institution as one of its great na-
tional societies, would never allow it to languish for
want of funds; but that, on the contrary, the sup-
port extended to it would continue to be of a liberal
character to enable it to maintain its large life-sav-
ing fleet in a state of thorough efficiency, and gra-
dually to increase the number of its boats as circum-
stances may occur.

A cordial vote of thanks having been given to the
lecturer the proceedings closed.

Yesterday the Sheriffs of Landon received the
Speaker's writ, directing a fresh election for the
city of London, consequent upon Mr. Goschen
having accepted an office under the Crown, and they
have fixed Monday next, at 12 o'clock, for such
election in the Guildhall. According to custom the
writ was officially proclaimed yesterday morning,
both in Guildhall and in front of the Royal Ex-
change. There is not the slightest symptom of
opposition to Mr. Goschen, and there can be no
doubt that the right hon. gentleman will be re-
elected on Monday.