The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-12 00:00:00

present, partly carried on at 'Whitehall, and partly at ' granted to hertl ajesty towards defraying the wages of the
Somerset-house. (Hear, hear.) navy and marine
Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped the house would pause before Mr. CARDWI said he wished to ask the right hon.
it did an act of injustice to an absent man. Sir Baldwin baronet two quo ions ; first, whether the recommendation
Walker, who, on account of his valuable services in the of the report of tl
ie commissioners, in relation to the im-
department over which he presided, had been made a provement of the c ondition of the sailors in her Majesty's
m to establish a connection in future
baronet and a K.C.8., had been charged with having navy, was about to be carried out; and, secondly, whether
created a deficit of £5,000,000 in eleven years. These their recommenJuth
navy and the mercantile marine was
figures of the noble lord were well-considered, and it between the royal'
, whether it was being carried out.
was impossible to answer them off-hand ; but he merely approved of, and if .0
ON, in reply, said in relation to the
rose in defence of Sir Baldwin Walker. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. PAK ING';,
lion. friend, No. 1, that the recom-
He was a permanent officer of the navy, and in jus- question of his right
sioners for the improvement of the
tice to him and to former Boards of Admiralty, mendation of the comm h
be carried out; and with regard
he ought to call for a select committee. (Hear, hear.) condition of seamen woult:ti to the recommendation of
As to the remarks of the gallant admiral, let him move to the second question, reh, tng
ash a connection between the
for a select committee, and he should have his cordial the commissioners to estala. i
support. royal navy and the mercantile marine, he begged, in answer
Mr. BENTINCK said that the object of the noble lord to his right hon. friend, t y that the Board of Admiralty
o say
did not appear to him to be intended for an attack upon the had adopted every one of the recommendations of the corn-
Surveyor of the Navy. Neither did he think the noble missioners, and had cons idered
would the
admm se
it riatim ;was fbut lir
e
lord intended to attack the present First Lord of the Ad. thought his right hon. friend that ita
miralty, who had donehisduty in a department ,about which that the Government, before they made up their minds to
he previously knew nothing, with great ability. (Hear.) act upon the plan, ought to give due consideration to it.
The noble lord did not attack any person, but he attacked That was a principle whi eh he was sure his right hon.
the system. He was inclined to think, however, that the friend would recognise. (11.'ear, hear.)on. baronet was aware
form of this motion would not tend to obtain tha object he Mr. LINDSAY said the right h
had in view, which was to insure the careful expenditure that the first part of the report involved a very considerable
of the sums voted for the naval service. He would, how- sum of money, namely, £lOO,OOO. He (Mr. Lindsay) held
over, co-operate with any member who would propose a very strong opinions upon this Aubject ; and in his opinion
system of careful and guarded expenditure. He thought it was not very difficult, as some. supposed, for them to man
that, under the present constitution of the Board of Ad- the navy at present without inoi Irring any such expense.
miralty, efficiency and economy were impossible. (Hear.) (Hear.)
He had taken a deep interest in this question, and he had Sir C. NAPIER hoped that th, e new regulations which
inquired in private yards whether if they were to carry on affected the men would be made km own as soon as possible.
their business in the way her Majesty's dockyards were Sir J. PAKINGTON said the regulations would be
carried on, what would be the result, and the answer was promulgated as soon as possible, bu t some details must be
—lf they were to act upon that system, even with the Bank first arranged.
of England to back them, they would be ruined. (Hear.) The vote was agreed to.
He contended that, under the present system, efficiency, and WAYS AND ME ANS.
economy were impossible. The reductions of the late First The house went into committee on ways and means.
Lord of the Admiralty were more in accordance with the The first vote was L 1,222,383 188. 9d.
requirements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer than the Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked w hether the Chancellor
maintenance of the maritime supremacy of the country. of the Exchequer intended to introdtice any measure in
The Admiralty was now made a political jobbing horse. reference to the issue of public money.
If they were to place a civilian at the head of the army The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said h
it would be monstrous. The First Lord of the Admiralty mentioned the other night that there were three bills which
was the most important of all the departments, and they had been prepared; and one of them roferred to the subject
selected men to fill the office without asking whether he alluded to.
knew the difference between a steamship and a jolly-boat.
Was that the way in which this important service ought to be The vote was agreed to, as was als one for the grant of
£11,000,000.
dealt with? They ought to appoint a naval man at the head of The house resumed.
the navy, and if any man in that house would propose it, he
would support him. Now, a man was selected for the EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.
office without reference to his antecedents, but merely for In clause lit was proposed to fill. up a blank by inserting
political convenience. It was said the heads of that de- the sum of £7,000,000.
partment were guided, in cases of difficulty, by the naval Mr. CRAWFORD asked whet or it was likely that the
lords. Well, what was the consequence ? Why, that the whole sum of £7,000,000 would be rat quired at once.
responsibility was really not with them, but with the First Lord STANLEY said nearly the whole amount would
Lord, who was guided by them. He must conclude by be required for the home expenses A' the Indian Gevem-
again saying that the efficiency of the navy.involved the ment. He could not give any more definite information.
very existence of the country, but he thought the present The amendment was agreed to.
system defective in many important respects, and he, for The remaining clauses were then a greed to.
one, was prepared to support any inquiry which would have The Superannuation Bill, the NEs rine Mutiny Bill, and
the effect of putting a stop to any malversation of the funds the Sale of Poisons Bill were postpt med.
of the country. COUNTY COURT: S BILL.
Sir F. BARING said, that if the noble lord really be- This bill passed through a second . wading.
lieved there was waste and reckless expenditure in the
RECREATION GB ;MINDS.
administration of the navy, he was quite right in bringing
the subject forward. What he blamed the noble lord for This bill passed through commiti tee.
was, that he did not adopt the only mode in which his pro - The house adjourned at twenty z ninutes to one o'clock.
fessed object could be gamed, namely, that of moving for
a committee of inquiry. The house ought to proceed in
this inquiry like men of business, not by examining the
estimates of one year, but of several; and by doing so he was
confident that a great public object would be gained.
Sir G. PECHELL thought that great credit was due
to the noble lord for the motion he had made, and though
he was persuaded of the efficiency of the Surveyor of the
Navy, he augured much good from the figures and
statements which he had communicated to the house. He
felt the highest esteem for the character, ability, and
services of Str Baldwin Walker ; he was a most excellent
public servant, and he could not allow the occasion to pass
by without paying his humble tribute to his merits.
Sir J. ELPHINSTON believed that the inquiry moved
for by the noble lord would be unproductive of good, and
therefore could not vote for it.
Mr. M. GIBSON suggested that the noble lord should
not press his motion, but that a committee of inquiry should
be appointed with reference to the figures and statements
he had made. When the block •ships were first introduced
into this country, they were thought to be so formidable
that Baron Dupin was directed to inquire into the subject,
and he made a report to the French Chambers, that it was
indispensably necessary for France to have a force of the
same description ; and yet those were the very ships that
were now described as useless. He believed these very
block-ships were now courted in the French navy. (Cries
of " No, no.") He would suggest to the noble lord to
withdraw his motion as regarded the supplies for the navy,
and move that part which related to the naval expenditure.
Lord J. HAY was of opinion that the inquiry ought to
be limited to the naval expenditure.
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY thought the noble lord who
brought forward the motion rendered essential service to
the navy and the public. His noble friend intimated a
few days ago the nature of his motion to the right hon.
gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, so that he
should be prepared to contravene his statements, but he
had not done so. He produced a statement from the Sur •
veyor of the Navy, but he had not accounted for the five
millions which his noble friend said was entirely unac-
counted for. His noble friend asked what was done with
it, but no answer was given. His hon. friend the member
for Portsmouth filled the office of First Lord of the Ad-
miralty for some years, and ought to be able to give an
explanation, but he did not do so. He would suggest to
his noble friend to withdraw his present motion, and to
move for a committee to inquire, not mto the naval adminis-
tration, but the expenditure, and he trusted the right hon.
gentleman would not oppose it. There was another reason
why this expenditure should be inquired into, because there
was a very strong feeling out of doors that they were too
lavish of the public money. He hoped, therefore, his noble
friend would adopt the suggestion, and that the house
would agree to it.
Sir CHARLES WOOD congratulated the noble lord
on the able manner in which he had brought forward
this question. He denied that he had been insensible to
the necessity of placing this country on a proper footing as
regarded its naval power, and he hoped to be able, when the
proper. time came to satisfy the house that every attention
had been paid to the building of the larger class of ships, as
well as those of the smaller kind. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CORRY heard with regret the statement that his
right hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington) had not defended Sir
Baldwin Walker. His right hon. friend did defend Sir
Baldwin, and he (Mr. Corry) would say that Sir Baldwin
Walker was not to be accused of any extravagance. He
could, on his own part, and on that of every member'of the
Admiralty, bear the highest testimony to the conduct of
that gentleman. He denied that the annual charge for the
wear and tear of ships in commission was so small as the
noble and gallant lord had estimated, namely 6 per cent.
In reality, the maintaining rate of those chips was fully 81
per cent.
Lord J. RUSSELL considered the question was not at
present in a satisfactory condition. There were two matters
before the house. The motion of his noble and gallant
friend, and the statement he had made in withdrawing it.
With regard to the motion, it might not be satisfactory to
the house, with its present imperfect state of information as
to the details of their shipbuilding expenditure, that a par-
ticular form of plan should be prescribed with regard to the
construction or conversion of their line-of-battle ships; but
on the other hand it was most unsatisfactory that the state-
ment of his noble and gallant friend, the result of personal
inquiry and evidently of great research, should be entirely
set aside, because it was said that all his calculations might
be wrong, and that inquiry was therefore unnecessary. The
statement made by his noble and gallant friend, corrobo-
rated as it had been by the statement of the hon. and
gallant admiral (Sir C. Napier), certainly left the im-
pression on his (Lord John Russell's) mind that
further inquiry was necessary, and when he said
so, he was not supporting an unusual course, for in
the years 1818, 1828, 1838, and 1848, there had been
select committees on their naval and military expenditure,
but there had not been any in 1858, though his right hon.
friend the member for Portsmouth had stated that with re-
ference to the navy he intended to move the appointment of
such a committee. The statements of his noble and gallant
friend, and of the hon. and gallant admiral certainly re-
quired some answer by way of inquiry. Sir Baldwin Walker
was no doubt a very able officer, deserving of the confidence
reposed in him by the Admiralty, but the house was not
acquainted with the fact respecting the degree in which ho
ordered the extensive alterations of our vessels of war.
What he wished to know was, did the Admiralty ever in-
terfere with Sir Baldwin Walker, or was he allowed the free,
absolute, and uncontrolled exercise of his own will and
judgment. If the alterations so constantly made in our
vessels were required on scientific principles and by reason
of the progress of science, than that state of facts would be
an answer to the demand for inquiry ; but it was not satis-
factory to go on increasing our naval estimates, and neces-
sarily increasing them, and voting large sums of money
without inquiring whether that money was properly ex-
pended, and whether the utmost economy was exercised in
the building of these ships. In saying this he did not wish
to lay blame on any particular persons. He should be un-
willing to vote on the motion as it stood, but rather than
allow the statement of his noble and gallant friend to be
passed over, he must record his vote for the proposition un-
less the Government agreed to some kind of inquiry which
could easily be arranged.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that,
as a general rule, the Government had no objection what-
ever to inquiry being made into every branch of the
public expenditure ; but let the proposal be fairly made,
let time be given for its consideration, and let the house
not be hurried into the sanction of an inquiry until, at
all events, it was clearly shown and ascertained that valid
grounds existed for takmg such a course. He was quite
surprised that the noble lord the member for th• city of
London should in so inconsiderate a manner urge the
Government to accede to the motion for inquiry. The Go:
vernment bad already inquired. There had been three in-
quiries by competent professional commissions into the
state of their dockyards, the condition of their steamships,
and the general expenditure of the navy. They were con-
ducted by men of the greatest ability, and with a devotion
of time, earnestness, and intelligence than which nothing
could be more praiseworthy. His right hon. friend the
First Lord of the Admiralty had undertaken to lay the re-
sults of those inquiries before the house, and until the in-
formation so promised was placed in the hands of members,
so that they might have ample materials wherewith to form
a correct opinion, no further inquiry ought to be sanctioned,
inasmuch as it would be premature. The proposition of the
noble lord (Lord 3. Russell) was not founded on reason, and
he trusted that the house would not agree to the request.
Mr. T. G. BARING argued that Lord Clarence Paget's
calculations as to an unaccounted-for expenditure of five
millions was incorrect, inasmuch as he had omitted to in-
clude surpluses to the extent of £780,000, which ought to
have been placed to the credit of ship-building, and had
calculated at least £500,000 of excesses on steam machinery.
Instead of five millions, there had only, in reality been
£2,800,000 unaccounted for; and, if investigation were
made, it might be found that many of the noble and gallant
lord's calculations with regard to that sum were also inac-
curate.
Mr. J. LOCKE thought the noble lord had been very
badly treated, and should he divide the house, he should
certainly vote in support of his motion, for that which ought
to be conceded—a strict inquiry into those matters. (Hear.)
The house then divided, and the numbers were—
For going into committee .... 117
For Lord Clarence Paget's amendment.. 97
Majority for going into committee —2O
Mr. WILLIAMS submitted that the estimates ought t)
be referred to a select committee before any more money
was voted away, and with that view he objected to any
votes being taken at that late hour, and should move that
the house do now adjourn.
Sir J. PAKINGTON expressed a hope that the hon.
gentleman would allow one vote to be taken that night br
the wages of the navy and marines.
Mr. WILLIAMS, after cries of " Divide," " Withdraw
the motion," and "Agreed," consented to withdraw his
motion.
The house then went into committee.
On the proposal. Out a own not exceeding £995,647 be

COUNTRY M. ARIBTB.

LIVERPOOL-MARCH 11.

There was a small supply of all kinds of grain at market
this morning, with a thin attendar ice, and the demand for
both wheat and flour was on a ver y limited scale. Price*,
however, remain in a great measui+e at late rates; even the
fact of a cargo of French wheat b icing taken yesterday for
shipment to the United States ha( I no perceptible influence
on the market. In Indian tern a slow retail business pass-
ing, and no further quotable alter t ition occurred in value.
Oats and oatmeal in limited reque st. Egyptian beans ad-
vanced ld to 2d per cental. Bari ey and peas had a fair
inquiry, and previous currencies were maintained. The
general tone of the market was firm, but quiet.

KNARESBOROUGET—Mancu 9.
There was a liberal supply of g rain to-day, and a, dull
business at the annexed prices :-- -White wheat, from 5s
Od to 5s 9d per bushel ; red, 5s I}dto 5s 6d; beans, 45 9d
to 5s 3d ; barley, 28s to 34s Od pe; r qr. ; oats, 21a to 26a.