The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-08 00:00:00

smitten with the love of God, and for the salvation of my
own soul and the souls of my father and mother, and all
my forefathers and ancestors, confirm tithes and other do-
nations to the Church."—( Hear, hear, hear.) That was
the foundation of a large portion of the Church property. It
was in conformity with Stephen's intentions, who, while
speaking of heavenly joys, was intriguing for an earthly
crown, that you founded your title to all your conscientious
feelings, which will not allow you to propose any part of this
property to be devoted to other than strictly ecclesiastical
purposes.—( Cheers, and cries of " Question.") It was ob-
jected strongly by the Noble Lord (Stanley) against gentle-
men on this (the Opposition) side of the House, that if a new
Government should be formed in consequence of this resolu-
tion, it must be supported by persons of very incongruous
opinions.—( Ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
He was surprised to hear that objection come from the Noble
Lord.—(Cheers and cries of " Question.")
Lord STANLEY was understood to say that he made no
such objection.
Mr. GI SBORNE—Gentlemen would remember that a
very prominent part of the Noble Lord's speech was, that the
Opposition was formed of men entertaining the most incon-
gruous principles—( Cheers from the Opposition)--that they
were persons who had agreed together on this occasion for the
purpose of embarrassing the Government ; but who, when
they should succeed to their places, would move together very
badly indeed. Now, there was a remark he wished to make
to the Noble Lord, because the Noble Lord either agreed in
principle with the present Government, or he did not. If he
agreed with them, why did he not join them? If he did
not agree with them, then he (Mr. Gisborne) would ask,
was the Noble Lord the person to make an objection to
those who acted together on the Opposition side of the House?
When the Noble Lord was in office, he (Mr. Gisborne) was
for two or two or three years not certainly a regular, but a
general, supporter of the Noble Lord. He supported him
on all questions, he believed, in which the Noble Lord was in
any trying difficulties with the House. He voted with him on
the malt•tax ; also against inquiry into agricultural distress—
(Laughter in several parts of the House)—he voted also
against an inquiry into the Pension List—( Renewed laughter)
—and lastly, he not only voted but spoke for him on the ques-
tion of the Russian-Dutch Loan. Now, he would ask the
Noble Lord whether he thought it was any objection to his
Government that it had his (Mr. Gisborne's) support on those
questions, or whether he thought on that account that it was
less worthy of the confidence of the country? And yet he (Mr.
Gisborne) as widely differed from the Noble Lord then on the
general subject of ecclesiastical property, and especially on
the state and government of Ireland, as he did now. If a new
Government should be formed, he would give to that Go-
vernment the same disinterested support as he did to the
Government of the Noble Lord. The consequence of such
a change would probably be, that the Noble Lord would
come to this side of the House, and that he ( Mr. Gis-
borne) would occupy that section of the House where the
Noble Lord now sat—(Laughter)--though, perhaps, not
in so distinguished a manner. But the difference between his
situation and that which the Noble Lord now held, would be
this—that he (Mr. Gisborne), when filling the Noble Lord's
seat, would be supporting Ministers in whom he had con-
fidence, while the Noble Lord was now supporting Ministers
in whom he had not any.—( Loud Opposition cheering.) He
was sure the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) would
allow him to refer to the times of Henry VIII. These words
frequently occurred in the preambles of the statutes of that

reign :
" When love could teach a Monarch to be wise,
And Gospel light first dawn'd from Boleyn's eyes."
—( Laughter.) It was under these religious auspices that the
Gospel first became an element in English legislation. For
his (Mr. Gisborne's) part, lie did not see why it should dis-
turb the general harmony of the empire to have so many sects,
especially if they gave up at once all pretence of determining
in this House what was Gospel truth. It was a pretence
which never had succeeded to any good purpose. It never
had produced harmony in any society ; but it had produced
persecution in every country in the world. He would say
only one word in reply to the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), who
had stated that he should consider it his duty to endeavour to
raise the cry of " the Church in danger 1"—( Opposition
cheers.) He believed that cry would be like mere sounding
brass.—(Laughter and cheers.) It would, in all probability,
have the same effect as the advice given to Macheath by one
of his associates, when he was at the gallows, and which
was very pithy and appropriate to a man in his situation. It
consisted of two words, which were simply these—" Die
hal d!"—( Great laughter.) He rather apprehended that the
effect or the address presented to-day to the Right. Hon. Ba-
ronet opposite would be somewhat similar, and that the cry of
" The Church in danger," which was to be raised, would
simply give that exhortation to the Right Honourable Baronet
which was given to the noted highwayman—" Die hard ;"
and which advice, by the by, the Right Hon. Baronet did not
at all seem indisposed to adopt.--( Laughter and cheers.) In
conclusion, he would declare that he cordially agreed with the
resolution before the House. He was told, indeed, that one
of its effects was likely to be the shortening of the duration
of the present Ministry. It was not, on that account, that it
recommended itself to his mind. If that should be the conse-
quence, and if that consequence should be calamitous to the
country, he should be entirely innocent of it, for he supported
it on account of the principles it embodied, principles which
he ever maintained in opposition to the last Government, and
which he now, with equal consistency, maintained in opposi-
tion to the present. He supported it, equally careless as to
the consequences or effects—( Loud cheering on the Ministe-
rial side)—it would produce.—(Renewed cries of " Hear,
hear !" from the Ministerial side, echoed back by the Opposi-
tion.) I should like (said Mr. Gisborne) to finish one sentence
more.—( Laughter.) I say, then, that I support the resole-
tion, equally careless as to the effects it will produce on the
existence of the present Government, or on the question who
shall be their successors.—( Continued cheering. )
Mr. C. NV. W YNN then rose to address the House—Every
one of the Hon. Gentleman's arguments went not to the re-
gulation, but to the total subversion, of the Irish Church.
The Hon. Gentleman had, strangely enough, taken the dona-
tion of King Stephen as the foundation of the rights of the
Church in Ireland ; totally forgetting, it would seem; that
King Stephen had not a foot of land in Ireland, and that he
was as perfect a stranger in that country as the King of France
or the King of Spain. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that
the title of the Church to its property rested upon the dona-
tion of some old sinner, whom, upon his death-bed, a wily
Priest had induced to make an atonement for his sins by a pro-
fuse gift to the Church. But was there, he would ask, a single
title to land in Ireland which was not posterior in origin to that
Church ? and the land was always granted out by the King,
subject to the right of the Church to tithe. But it was said that
the parish had the right to tithe, and that the clergyman was only
a trustee; and that there was no injustice in taking the tithe
from the Church, and appropriating it to the purposes of na-
tional and general education. But how far did that argu-
ment go ? Was it to be applied to lay impropriators as
well as to the Clergy ? Was it to apply to the property of the
Duke of Devonshire, Lord Lansdowne, and Lord Donegal?
The proposition now before the House was, that whenever
there was a surplus in any parish, it should be taken away and
applied to the diffusion of general knowledge among the Ro-
man Catholics as well as Protestants; but that, whenever there
was a deficiency in any parish, it was not proposed by the
Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) to make up that deficiency.
He was one of the few Members now remaining in that House
who had sat in it previously to the Act of Union ; and he well
remembered that it was then held out to the Protestants of Ire-
land, as one of the principal advantages to result from that
measure, that the Protestant Church in that part of the coun-
try would be protected. He trusted, however, that the Church
of Ireland, and its other institutions, which the Hon. and.
Learned Member for Dublin now threatened, would be pre-
served, by the wisdom of that House of Lords for which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman proposed to substitute a Re-
presentative Chamber ; and that they—believing the Union
with Ireland to be endangered—and, looking at this propo-
sition as the first step towards its destruction, would treat it
accordingly.
Colonel SIBTHORP then rose, together with another
Honourable Member, and after a short pause (during which
the cries of " Divide I" were very general) proceeded to ad-
dress the House. The Hon. and Gallant Member, after re-
marking that he had no doubt the Hon. Member for Derby-
shire ( Mr. Gisbourne) entertained the expectation of inducing
the Right Hon. Baronet to resign, and of placing himself in
some very important situation, made some allusion to ham and
beef warehouses, and pastry cooks' shops in the immediate
vicinity of Westminster-bridge, which we were unable to
comprehend. We rather think the effect of the allusion was
that placards, calling upon the people to sign addresses to
Lord John Russell, were exposed in windows which bore in-
viting placards of another description, intimating that hot
sausages, small Germans, and saveloys were to be had with-
in. The Hon. and Gallant Member then proceeded in the
following words :—I am desirous to express my consternation
at that—l will say—unconstitutional proceeding to which the
Noble Lord has lent his sanction,—( Mock cheers.) I think,
at least I hope, that the Noble Lord, on a future occasion—
he who undertakes the appropriation of the surplus property
of the Church—will give usfsome opportunity of hearing from
the same quarter a declaration that he means to leave Ire-
land in the possession of lay impropriators.—(Cheers.) I
hope, when a Bill for the Reform of the English Church is
brought in, that we shall hear something of the House of
Russell—(cheers)—of the House of Russell giving up their
lay impropriations. I will not believe the sincerity of the
Noble Lord unless I see this take place. He will allow me
also to say that I doubt his sincerity, because I believe him to
entertain—to hold—l may say to be actuated by—(cheers)—
the wish to turn out an honest Ministry, and bring in another,
whose condemnation is well known in the public opinion of
the liberal portion of the country. I am perfectly satisfied—
(vehement cheering)—l am perfectly satisfied that the Right
Hon. Gentleman below me will retain his post so long as a
sense of honour will induce him to keep it ; and I am satisfied—
(cheers)--and I am satisfied that when he does leave it he
will carry with him the gratitude of one side of the
House, and the overthrow of the other.—( Renewed cheer-
ing.) This question has already undergone considerable
discussion ; I have heard many arguments from this side
of the House, but I have heard little more than vox et
preterea nihil on the other.—( Cheers and laughter.) Sir,
what said the Hon. Member for Derbyshire? Why he told
you that this was the last attempt of the Noble Lord to keep
up the Protestant Church in Ireland. But he also told you
that this would not pacify Ireland. Why, what will the Hon.
Member—the great man—the Prince of Dublin—say to this ?
—( Laughter.) What has he said ?—( Cheers.) He said
that this was but an instalment. He well knew (continued
the Hon. and Gallant Member, sinking his voice from its
highest pitch to a stage whisper)—he well knew that the only
way of attaining his point was to bring all your heads toge-
ther—(cheers)—and when your heads have been together a
little time, they will become more divided than ever.—( Loud
cheers.) Of the body opposite, I know not what the head may

be, but I believe the tail will leave the other part. What wil
be the result ? Unprecedented confusion—an unheard of
breaking up of the v.1.01e system, the head will be at one end,
and the tail will be..-at the other.—(Tremendous cheering,
and laughter.)
Mr. HOGG addressed the House amidst the loudest mani-
festations of impatience. His voice was too feeble, his iuflu•at
ence was too small, to attach any importance to any cry
th
might emanate from him; but he did there avow and declare
in the face of his country that he believed the Church to bees
in danger—in imminent danger—from the Noble Lord's ro-
lution ; and had he, the power, he would sound the loud
trumpet of alarm both within those walls and without. He be-
lieved that the people of England would respond to that cry ;
he believed that the time was not yet come when they would
show that they were callous or indifferent to the interests of
that faith, to the perseverance in which, by the blessing of
God, they were indebted for many of the blessings which were
now so liberally showered upon them. They were told that
there was no danger in the terms of the resolution. Why did
the House believe that the spoliator would rouse their indigna-
tion and excite their horror by rushing at once to the altar,
and there commencing his work of spoliation ?—(, Oh," On
" Divide.") Allusion had often been made to the Catholic
Relief Bill. He, for one, regretted that that measure should
have been delayed so long ; but when gentlemen were taunted
with the fears they had expressed, he would say, that that
debate had gone far to realize those which he himself had en-
tertained. What would have been said if, when the Hon.
Learned Member for Dublin first took up his seat in that
House, he had put it forth, even as a problematical supposition,
that within some few years a motion would be made, and sup-
ported by Catholic Members, for the diversion of the propertY,
of the Protestant Church from Protestant purposes?—( Cheers.)
And yet such a motion was now made, and supported by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself—the distinguished
leader of the Catholic interest in that House.
Mr. LUCAS said, that as allusion had been made toi hbeir:
by the Hon. and Learned Sergeant opposite, he woud
leave to answer his remarks. The Hon. and Learned Ser
geant had alluded to five parishes in the county of Monaghan'
in which the landholders were principally Catholic, while thet:e
was but a small proportion of Protestant landholders, and 01
which there were large livings, and scarcely any residen!
rectors. He admitted that the statement was correct, an!,
that it was not a state of things which be could approve of.
—( Cheers from the opposition.) But in this, and shllilar
instances, the fault was not so much in the individual clergr,
man as in the system.—( Loud cheers.) The Irish Chu
like all other human institutions, was in the course of centu-.
ries liable to imperfections. The Hon. and Learned Sergeant
had said, that he would restrict the incomes of the clergy to
a certain sum. In that he (Mr. Lucas) would go with the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and he was convinced that, 10
saying so, he merely expressed the opinions of a large body 0,
the Protestants of Ireland.—( Hear, and cries of " Question,
" Divide.")
Sir R. PEEL then rose and said—Sir, Ido not know that
.
it would be necessary for me to say a single word on the P.n.l
sent occasion if, during almost the whole of this discussion'
,;
had not been assumed that we had a right again to discuss the
precise question which furnished the subject of the six previnso
nights' debate which has taken place. But I apprehend tvii.t
that question was entirely set at rest by the House last nig“;
when it affirmed the resolution of the Noble Lord, and whne,
that resolution was allowed to be reported by the Constnitts,
without debate. It was in point of fact considered that aft
what had passed there could be no change of opinion resp!es:
ting that resolution, and therefore it was that I determin*
permit it to pass this evening without further discussion. PO
what is the resolution which this House is now called ue°ll.,
affirm? Why, it is a resolution of a totally different charaol,76
to the former.—( Hear, hear.) The resolution which ta
House is now called upon to affirm, is nothing more nor 119.
than this—that no measure which can be introduced on (
subject of tithes can lead to a satisfactory or final settlement ev°,
that question which does not embody in it the foregoing es
lution. Now, Sir, I for one have very great objection to any s_tfe.
proposition, as the effect of it will be to establish a Pre'd
dent as novel as it is dangerous ; a precedent the prudeneV,,ut
which the Noble Lord himself seems to doubt.—( Hear.) I',„
is not this an obvious departure from the course which
iIP;
Noble Lord meant to have pursued when he first brought Ifss
ward his motion ?—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord then deer it
that if he should "succeed in having his resolution passeutos
was his intention to notify to the Crown that such resoluti
0.
had been carried, and that it was intended to found a Bill sill.,
it ; but what was the course which he now proposed aciless
ing ? He had passed his resolution, but he now propo„,
making no notification whatever respecting it, either toutt
Crown or the House of Lords. He abandoned the ues
which he had originally chalked out for himself, and 0. now.l,
he meant to do was that which in reality amounted,to hey hag,
simply to inform the members of this House that theYe
passed a resolution, and that, having done so, all who eefst
after them ought to be bound by it.—( Cheers.) This iF iv,
the Noble Lord now calls upon us to do ; but I object, to 11!se
proposition, because I think that nothing could be mare unlet,iso
or less safe than for this House to declare that one morsel
alone could lead to a final and satisfactory adjustment dos
question. The course which the Noble Lord wishes to P°
fib
object to, and the course which I am anxious to ?adopt latoly
he
jetted to by the Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of oss
House. It is quite true that a majority of the Islouse---$ got
jority of twenty-five—has affirmed a certain resolution ;cow
then it should not be forgotten that against that same re-tef
tion no fewer than 289 members have protested b'y the ve°olll
which they gave, and yet in the face of this the 'Noble e•
now calls upon the House to declare— s
e led'
rev
Lord J. RUSSELL, interrupting, observed that ea'
jority was even greater than the Right Hon. Berms et had s`-oslo
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I am perfectly aware twat the ,hat
Lord's resolution was carried by a still greater• nulobee'ssba
there being a minority of 289, independently of those se
paired off and those who were absent, I am er &titled too,
that there were at least 300 Members adverse t o the retold
tion, and yet, in the face of such a minority, the Nou'stf,, the
calls upon the House to affirm a proposition wifnieh
whole length of deciding that there shall be IWO furtPwiistea
cussion, and that it would be useless for the I muse to
all be
to any more argument upon the subject—that ibere sh l sei
only one measure, and that that measure shall be 6teiel
satisfactory. Why, Sir, I must say that this I the tYrTbat P
act of a majority.—( Loud cheers.) I must c leder°, ;sel $
the House of Commons were proud to establiesh so ,1)- of
precedent as that of precluding the further iligcuss'n, fr
question, avoiding to listen to what may be pole anee" - or,
your of er against a particular measure before it b,econley sod
vocable, declaring that no measure should be saftisfanterell be
final, unless it embodies a specific principle, tb at it wriousli
acting not only unwisely as regards itself, ,bar t datngteis
tbo
as respects the public.—(Great cheering.) air t l'iPasisose
resolution which the Noble Lord now calls Up! the Chung
adopt? Why, it is, that if there be a surplus cif the sariate
rtvenue beyond that which is required for th© proper be
nance of the Church Establishment, that surpf us slat others;
propriated to a single object, to the exclusion egves„.'berg
ff
—(Loud cheers.) You (addressing the Hon . 1%"-e.-; ion
the opposite side of the House) have your Comm' 016
Public Instruction—you have the power of v rse jog
report of that Commission without rashly pled' sing
to that which at present you admit to be 1111 :Xplica" 009;
are at liberty, if you think fit, to avail yours elves of
soot,
formation to be derived from that source, a‘tia yet You shoat
satisfied to grant even a short delay ; no, at it eel; area
the Noble Lord has with such singular ca ndoair deOg plOl
you that he is unable to bring forward any sPetsciell/h
until he has first seen the report of thds C.Aolllrn-
that
:
(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord himself' told you OP,
could not explain either the details of his plan or ",;(150;
principles upon which it was to be founded. -until he 1-iss
this report ; and yet you refuse to wait until such thlle vele
can have access to the information which he deems tl3)
indispensable before he can frame any plan Betznileete"
House of Commons adopt any such course?--C' Ft'
Will the House of Commons adopt a course which 111 rbe
elude it from profiting by the information which 14 'esteseile
sented to it by this Commission. Sir, I must be alle"laisOf
that it is a most unusual course to pursue to adopt such Ili'ssiple,so°
as the one involved in this resolution—to a.dapt a PT, ',"101.1),"
prophecy that only one plan can be satisfac. tory whill.ijoft'ol
wholly unprepared to furnish a single one ofoft the dotal ,ssioo
oo
plan.—( Cheers.) A short time will put y in post jo
full information cn the subject, and there fcire whY es;t:
adopt a resolution which must cut off the I, robability topo,
promise ? Why will you put on record ses .absurd ale obje;
tion as that one measure ? and only one e2fr carry.. tie °„
you have in view into effect. This, I believes Sirss,s, 0020
time in the history of the legislation of this ca urn", With it
branch of the Legislature has adopted such a c°'-eand 7,0
the concurrence, much less consulting, the oil her ssio10,0"
has been occasionally found necessary to make conne-fs- esswsas
sacrifices for the purpose of carrying pas sticislar sha"or
through both Houses of Parliament, why i va,,Y )„;
necessity arise in the present instance ?- -(1-eue-s,se. alsegis
should well consider this before you procee a to el'"? i'r'°
—( Cheers.) Now, what is it that you are ab out tO do;befor:
you are about to say—before any Bill is bi-( lught sines-els/lira
you have seen the report of the Church Corn toissiefirs" her ts
you will preclude yourselves from listening to, anY %so dsc'Es
cussion—that you will determine this tours e,
hmeaayr,.)to
Ibieththise
boenlythoenecouwrhseicwh
hsihcahllyobue • sersue.• soot
Lan to adopt
clare,
the House of Commons will establish any 'such Oevel,:at
of
gerous precedent--all I can say is, that it will Pre:ool'4
possibility of compromise on the subject, as what Yesesaioes tp
seems to be to insist on accomplishing your own 'u'" 5,1°,4
the exclusion of all others, even before you have bees' )
mould those designs into any tangible shapc.—(Choers:st °its
then is to be the act of the majority. But do you tbe's,slY re
the precedent you establish in this case will equally 13e.
all others, and that if you carry the present resolution, anier. ell;
majority hereafter may enforce a similar principle, hnvreslou° 0
just, in an other proposition that may come before the ni•
—( Cheers) But why will you not wait for the reporticsof°,
Commission ? What is it you mean to declare by Ole A.
tion? But perhaps you do not yourselves know•
of it will be this—you will go the whole length °I sesThone,.os)
have confidence in our own resolution, though we have
each other.--( Vehement cheering.) Why is it neleecnfe
swear eternal friendship upon a given subject?!( otlo
cheers.) For the last six, or rather for the last twe teeote •
you have been busily endeavouring to find some colninri dss,s
to unite you, differing in opinion from each other as rand
so many subjects, and at length you have found one, 4; 411,
wish to adhere to it, unnatural as it is, with a desperat,a sdr;sore
—(Cheers.) You say we will not trust our own jissrePos
judgment, or opinions, but we will rather take a perfectisiostly
vel course-_a course that will tie us rigorous's), to, 0,1;0 ie
out the possibility of departure from, this ''.esolution, tv" ecre
fact is the only common bond that bindslSs together; and. that
fore it is that I object to the precedent. I must say, SI
lis or,
Ido not think it is prudent of any majority to act 111 t 5111
bitrary way before it is prepared with its plans, or ". ode'
notion of the details, on which those plans arg to be fo'