The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-26 00:00:00

NAVY ESTIMATES.

Lord ASHLEY said that according to the usual custom,
it would be necessary to give notice in the Gazette on Friday
next that the half-pay and widows' pensions would be in course
of payment. This would be impossible unless they had the money,
as they would begin to be paid on the 10th of April,
and the last notice that could be given was on Friday
next. Now, unless the House would vote that money
to-night, it would be too late to do so on Friday,
and it would, therefore, occasion great inconvenience, as
those pensioners would think that they would not be paid.
It might be said that Government could take money voted for
other purposes, but this they did not consider themselves
warranted in doing, without the sanction pf the House.

Mr. LA BO U6l-1 ERE would be extremely sorry that any
such inconvenience should arise, but he :really could not see
why the passing of that vote was so important, or more necessary
than any other. It was intended, as he: had understood, that
all the votes should be passed by the Ist of April. He did
not conceive that the Noble Lord had made out any
case for receiving a further grant at present.—
Seeing his Right Honourable Friend, the late First
Lord of the Admiralty in his place ( Sir J. Graham), he should
like to know from him whether he was correct in the view he
had taken ; if not he should certainly at once defer
to the Right Hon. Gentleman's better judgment.
Sir J. GRAH AM said he could not see any constitutional
difficulty in applying• monies which are voted for one branch
of the service to another. After the resolution had been
refused, and until the passing of the Appropriation Act, dur-
ing the last Session, as, no doubt, the Hon. Member for
Middlesex would recollect, be had taken an objection,
that after the money had been appropriated by Aet
of Parliament for one use, it had been transferred to ano-
ther; but he had never contended, and never could con-
tend, that in the interval between the passing of the
vote, and the general appropriation of Parliament, the
former resolution having been reported, there ought to bo
the least difficulty on the part of the Executive in carrying on the
service, after the moneys had been voted; He would say, take
this very instance with respect to the naval service, the sum
voted the other night amounted to -nearly two millions
—( Cries of " Hear, hear")-and, while he was in the
Admiralty, he should not have hesitated in the least
in applying the Sums so voted and repckted, to the general
use of Or naval service, and certainly including half-pay.

~~l

He saw in the procedure no violation •f the AO of Pm-
liament. There was no objection, as he conceived, why
the estimate should not be passed before the Ist of April
r.ext. yet he was compelled to say, that the controul of
the House was a controul of the Executive perfectly constitu-
tional. He did not think it was necessary to have the votes
passed before the Ist of April, nor. that the public needed it.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Noble Lord whether he
meant to pay the advance for the next quarter, because, if he
understood it right, the whole of the Navy Estimates were
provided for until next April.*
Mr. HERRIES said he was glad to find that the Right
Hon. Baronet had relaxed from some of his positions
in respect to the appropriation of the public money.
He did not quite understand the distinction which
he now draws. The Right Hon. Baronet contends, that
after the appropriation of Parliament, all monies voted by
the House should be applied for the specific purposes
mentioned ; yet that in the interval between the
passing of the votes, the monies may be applied indiscri-
minately for the naval service. He (Mr. H.) was of opi-
nion, however, that the greatest degree of strictness was
necessary in the appropriation to the several parts of their
detail. The Right Hon. Hon.. Baronet, however, says that
with respect to great sums, that is utterly impossible. He
considered that his Noble Friend (Lord Ashley) had
done only justice to an -opinion of the House on a former
occasion, in calling Upon them to enable him to fulfil what
appeared to be the established regulations, in conformity with
the Act of Parliament, for the appropriation of monies
not voted for specific purposes. If it be said that all naval
money can be applied to any service strictly naval, then this was
unnecessary, but if the House was of opinion that it was not
necessary—it was not constitutional to appropriate money
to any other purpose than that for which it was originally
granted—he thought then, under such circumstances, it would
be necessary to empower the Admiralty to pay those demands
which his Noble Friend had shown to be so much required.
He thought the House would act wisely to enable the Governs
merit, by this vote, to carry on the business of the country,
These were the feelings he had always entertained, and he
thought that the House would best consult the interests of the
public service by acting in this manner.
Lord ASHLEY observed that in the Appropriation Acs
there was a distinction-in the-Words regulating the half-pay of
the army, and the half-pay of the navy. In the one
the words were "to defray all demands for the
half-pay of the navy up to the 31st of March." In the
other it was " to defray all demands for the half pay which
shall come in course of payment on the alst of March." They
were in the habit, in consequence of this arrangement, of
defraying the expenses of the old quarter out of the
quarter which succeeded it, and at the present time
they had not one farthing to pay these documents. It was
for this reason that he asked of the Hon. Gentleman and the
House to allow him to go jute Committee, and pass these
votes. Unless these votes were passed to-night, it would
occasion much difficulty and embarrassment.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM apprehended that if the A 1), to-
priation Act was as had been- stated on the other side,
and that the half-pay demands could not be paid
until these votes were passed, ho ( Sir James Graham) for
one would be sorry to take any steps which would
occasion the stopping of the half-pay of any officer.--(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.") He thought however that the ar-
rangement was a very irregular one.
After -a few words from Mr. W. W YNN,
Mr. PR YME said, if there was a difficulty he could re-
mind the house of the cause and the authors of it.
Did it not arise from the dissolution of the late Parlia-
ment ? That had driven the assembling of the Parliament
beyond the accustomed time of meeting, the present
Parliament having met late in February, instead of early in the
month of January.--( Hear, hear.) This was one of the evils
of the unnecessary dissolution of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.)
Dr. BO W RIN G remarked, there was difficulty in regulating
the public accounts, but desired that the views of the Right
Hon. the Secretary of War would have their due effect. It
might be true that the House could not carry its control
into every department of the public accounts, but it would be
well to have a fixed time for the consideration of the estimates.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the Noble Lord
(Ashley) would take the votes singly or altogether.
Sir R. PEEL—The question is, whether it is most advi-
sable for the House to pass two votes, both as to the half-pay
and pension together, or pass the one first and leave the other
to some future occasion. His Noble Friend wished to con-
form to the feelings of the house. On Friday it is usual
to give notice in the Gazette that the half-pay
of ol;cers will be paid in obedience to the votes of
the House.—( Hear. ) His Noble Friend did not wish to
publish such a notice without the sanction of the House—for
if he published such a notice, would it not naturally create
surprise that he should pledge the honour of Government
to make payntents before the House authorised them ?
The safe course which he (Sir Robert Peel) considered for
the House to take wos to' sanction the votes to-night—
much safer than leaving the payments to be made out of an
appropriation of monies granted for other purposes. The
exigencies of the public services may require indefinite
appropriations en some occasions, but lie did not think that,
the House having passed a vote of monies for two or three
beads, the Executive Government would devote it to other
purposes.

Lord STANLEY had no wish to stand in the way of the
Right Hon. Baronet's arrangement with the House, but be
could not help thinking that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
a little misunderstood his Right Hon. Friend near him ( Sir
J. Graham). What his Right Hon. Friend said was, that if
there was any surplus, it was perfectly competent for the
Eiecutive to apply it to the service of the State. No abuse
could arise, because the application of it could easily be
checked.. His Right Hon. Friend did not think it competent
to the Government to apply any monies to any purposes they
might think fit. This would be open to great abuse un-
doubtedly. lie did not think the constitutional difficulty was
at all serious. He was afraid that if' the House was disposed
to entertain these extreme scruples, both the present and every
future Government would be placed in much greater difficul-
ties than those in which they were at present.
Sir R. PEEL observed that the Government felt no diffi-
culty in applying the past votes to the payment of the half-pay
and pensions accruing due, but they did not conceive they
would be justified in Ling so without explaining to the House
tiv peculiar circumstances of the case.
Lord .1. RUSSELL thought the better course would be to
go into the Committee that night, and pass the requisite votes.
If they did so, however,, it should be under protest against
Wednesdays being in future considered a Supply day.

THE POST MASTER GENERAL.
Mr. WALLACE had a motion of some importance for that
evening, which, if the House went into a Committee of Supply,
he would be obliged to postpone. The !lon. Member entered
into a statement connected with what he designated a most
extraordinary letter from the Commissioners of Revenue, con-
tradicting a statement laid before Parliament, relative to the
application of a large sum of money. alleged to have been most
improperly applied during the period the Noble Duke was at
the head of the Post-office department, but owing to the con-
fusion occasioned by several Members leaving the House we
beard him but imperfectly. The statement of the matter ori-
ginally presented to the House could only be drawn up with a
view, either of misleading the House or of suppressing thereat
state of the case. It appeared that there had been a sum paid
to Sir Francis Freeling, which had no sanction in law. On a
future occasion he would certainly bring the subject under
notice, and he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
not again interfere to prevent its discussion.
Mr. V. SMITH complained of the irregular manner in
which the Hon. Member had brought forward an accusation
against the Noble Duke who lately filled the office of Post-
master. General, without gie ing him an opportunity of refuting
the charge. Whenever the Hon. Member brought forward
his present motion he (Mr. V. Smith) would be quite pre-
pared to meet him.
Sir R. PEEL did not think the Hon. Member had a right
to charge him with the postponement of his motion. -.Wed-
nesday- was Order day, and whether the Committee of Supply
was then proceeded with or not, the Hon. Member's motion
could not have come on until the orders of the day had been
disposed of.
Lord STANLEY defended the conduct of the .Duke of
Ricinnorid from the imputations of the Hon. Member for
Greenock, and stated that the Noble Duke was ready to have
it inquired into by one of three courses. He was willing
to leave the matter to which the Hon. Member referred to the
decision of either the present Postmaster-General, the Com-
mission then sitting, •or, if the House preferred it, to lay on
the table an answer to the statement of the Commissioners,
and to leave the matter altogether to their decision.
REBUILDING OF THE TWO HOUSES OF PAR-

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