The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-19 00:00:00

REFORM BILL (IRELAND.)

Mr. STANLEY moved the third reading of the
above Bill.
In answer to a question from Mr. LEADER,
Mr. STANLEY intimated that one or two new clauses
were to Le biought up, and added to the Bill by way of
ider.

The Bill was 'hen read a third time.
Mr. CRAMP fON poposed two clauses, for the better
regulating the mii.te of regi•rratiiin, which were agreed to,
and added as ride,. to the Bill.
Mr. MULLINS mAveil the addition to the first clause

of a proviso to the following eff et That the lessee
claiming to register shall not be di.quil fi d by reason of
any abatement m die by the lessor of the amount of rent
p iyable by said less e fir the lands or tenements out of
which hr shall so claim to register, provided the rent pay
able by said les.ee for said lands or tenements, after such
abatement, shall not be less than a solvent dui responsible
tenanr mold afford at the time to pay for the same."
Mr. CRAMPTON opposed the amendment, which was
withdrawn.
Mr. 'MULLINS then moved the insertion of a clause to
the effect. " That joint. occupiers of lands or tenements in
ties, in case the cle.r yearly value of such limdtior terse
Inents shall be of such an amount as, wh.n divided, shall
give a beneficial interest of not less than 101. for each and
every occupier."
.'Jr. STANLEY opposed the clause, as uncalled-for and
unnecessary.
Alter a short conversation between Mr. MumNs, Mr.
CRAMPTON, and Mr. RUTIIVEN, the clause was negatived
without it division.

JEPHSON moved a very long clau.e for the divi-
sion of the laNer counties into districts for polling.
Mr. STANLEY opposrd the clause, which he described
as tieing, in 'act a species of new Bill. He was convinced
that the addi iiinal legal agency which would be rendered
necessary by the operation of the clause, would create more
expense than would be incurred by bringing the voters im
inediately to tie ordinary place for polling. It was as.,u-
-n diy too I,te, on the third le idin,z of ti e Fish Reform
[lilt, to oiscoss the propriety of a clause which was at va-
riance with the provisions of the English and Scotch Re
form Bills.

Mr. POWER supported the clause, which would, in
his opinion, have the r ffect of reducing the election ex-
penses at least one-third.

Colonel PERCIVAL was inclined to think it would
increase the expense, for if such facilities were given, nor
only te voters, hut th• it friends and families, would pro-
ceed to the poll ng places before the election begitn, and
stay there till it was finished.

After a ►ew remarks fi.,rn Lord K !leen, Mr Chapman,
Mr. .11. OTerral', and 31r. :Mullins,

Mr. JEPHSON was allowed to withdraw the clause.
On the motion of Mr. STANLEY, several verbal amend-
inentb were then read and agre.-d to.
I.llr. LEADER pr..po,ed an arnendm. nt, to the effect
that the qua.itication tor the franchise in boroughs in Ire-
land should be fixed at 51., instead of 101, as it was fixed
ui the Bill.

Mr. HUME seconded the amendment, and supported
it, on the wound that an equally substantial Reform should
he given to Ireland as had h-en given to Emfland.
Mr. STANLEY said, that his Majesty's :Ministers had
proceeded in this in-tance. with regard to Irelin,t, precise'y
on the same principles as they hail acted upon with reg+rd
in England and Scotland, in their respective Reform Bills.
An uniform constituency was established throughout the
tot ee kingdoms, which was one of the great ohjects or the
Reform measure. Thr Right fin. Gentleman proceArd
ro show, from a series of returns, that under the Bill, as it
stood, with the qu lineation fixed at 1(11., the consti
in the borougi.s in Irel.nd would hear an equal propor
lion to the amount of inli.bitatit householdets in them,
as the constituency would in the Engiish and Scotch
ti,,rough4.

Mr. HUNT maintained that Ireland had been as fairly
dealt with in this instance as England and Scotland had
h.-en.

%Ir. LEADER replie,l, and state I that he should not
!rouble the ilou4e by dividing it, but would, with per-
mission, withdraw his 'notion.
Sev.ral verbal amendments were then agreed to.
In answer to a questh.n from Mr. LEFKOY, with re-
ference to the registration (as we undeibtowd) so as to
confer a right ~f voting fur the University of Trinity
College, Dublin,

Alr. CRAMPTON said, that under the statute the
Vice-Chancellor posses-ed the power to appoint, com-
mencements at any time he might think fit tor the put.
pose of conferring degrees so as to be in time to give a
ight to vote.
31r. JEPIISON said, that he much doubted the accu-
racy of this statement by the Hon. Gentleman, the Sort.
tor-General for Ireland, and therefore it was that he
hought that means Nhould be taken in this measure to put
the fill •stitin beyond doubt.
A Ling desultory conversation as to the ittalifieation oath
administered to Roman Catholic freeho de rs here ensued,
in wt.ich Mr. Walker, Mr. 31. O'Connell, Mr. Wyse,
Mr. M. 0 Ferrall, Cnonel Percival, Mr. S. Rice, ano
other members, took p :rt.
The clause rem dried unaltered, and the Bill then passed.

TITHES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the ;notion of Air. STANLEY, the second reading of
this 1311 wam agre.d to, without on the under
standing that ample opportunity for further iiiseu,toi.
s multi be aff,rded in the Committee, which was fixed for
Tuesday next.

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
:he House adjourned at Two o'clock.

HOUSE OF LuTIDS, JULY 18.

Lord GRAN I'HAM p.m-taro a petitiuu trim the Arch
&Leo of Boltuid, aga,mt a part of the new Lim Educa.
two S) stein.

Tile Col prate Fund,' BM was brought up by Mr.
BZKNAL and (rthers from the Commous, with the Lords

Aniendurnts agreed to. The Cif), Police BU was
brought up and read a first tim..
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

Lord CADOGAN presented a petition from James
Allison, stating 'h it he WAR sorry 'or what he had done ;
that he had apologised to Mr. Wright, and Wai ready to
do so again ; and praying to he discharged.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, on understanding
that an ample apology was made, with which Mr. Wright
was satisfied, did not mean to oppose the discharge. The
petitioner had taken upon himself to state, in a manner
which their Lordships must have remarked, that he had
dared to pull a person by the nose in their Lordships'
House. An ample apology was essential.
Lord CADOGAN moved 'hot the petitioner be brought
to the bar, reprimamied by the Lord Chancellor, and dis-
charged, pas in his fees.—T,,is was agreed to.
Tie petitioner was then brought to the bar, repri-
manded, ,ind discharged on p+yment o' his tees.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then called the attention
of the House to the other case of all ged breach of privi-
lege on the parts of Thorpe and Alibi. and observed, that
upon consideration he thought this a case in which their
Lordships were not called upon to interfere. The printed
s atenient in which the alleged breach originated was not
any proceeding of this House, nor was it a document
either laid or to be laid before the House, but merely a
private statement circulat.d among individuals in pur-
suance of a practice which was by many considered as not
ve y regular. At the same time, he, as a professional man,
cautiobed both Thorpe and Alitis against any further pro-
e,edinrs in this matter. for they would consider that they
were liable to lie cued upon to answer in the Court of
King's Bench, and tie consequence might he serious to
them with reference to 'heir professional character.
T, e Marquis of LONDONDERRY concurred in this
vi w ot this case.

The order for Thorpe's appearing at the bar was then
di.eharged.

AFFAIRS OF GREECE.

The Marquis . f LONDONDERRY said that his ob-
ject in now rising was to ascert tin the correctness
of what he could hardly call a rumour, for it hail been
admitted in another place, with respect to a treaty having
been entered into between Russia, Fe once, and England, tor
placing a Prince of B avaria on the throne of Greece, to
whom this country was to guarantee a loan of sixty mil-
lions of francs. This Prince, it was also said, was to b.
escorted to Greece by 3,000 Bavarians. He thought it de-
sir able also that some intortnation should he given as to why
Austria was no party to this arrangement. It should always
be remembered that Austria was a more natoial a ly of
this country, than either France or Russia, for her inte-
rests d:d nut at all clash with ours. He thought the
country would be much dissatisfied with any treaty by
which the., country would have to pay, in ad 'i ion to
the Rossian•Dotch Loan, a sum of three millions to
gratify the Noble Earl's fancy of King m .king, for it
must he recollected that this was the second throne the
Nolile Eatl had erected. Indeed, the Noble Earl's foreign
po ivy would seem to have no other obj,ct than undoing
all that had been done by his predecessors in office, for the
purpose of promoting the revolutionary principles of our
new ally, France. The Noble Marquis here referra d to a
pas-age in Ear' Grey's speech, delivered shortly atter the
accession ot Louis-Philippe to the throne of France, in or-
der to show that the Niab!e Earl warmly approved of t e
acts which led to the accession, and anticipated from it
stieat advantages to the cause ot liberty. He would as k
how were the Noble Earl's predictions realized ? Paris
was in a state of siege, France was convulsed from its
centre to its extremities, and Europe was menaced by a
flood of French revolutionary principles. The Noble Mar-
quis having ascribed the unae.tled state of Holland, and
Belgium, and Ireland to the policy pursued by Ministers,
concluded whh asking, whether the Noble Earl Was pre
pared to lay before the House a copy of the conference of
the three Powers, under which Prince Ot aa was ap
painted King of Greece, and whether he meant to call
upon Parliament to enable Ministers to pay the loan which
they had guaranteed?
Earl GREY would not follow the Noble Marquis
through his geographic al hut most irrelevant eigression.
wh ch began in Turkey, and ended, not inappositely, in
Ireland—(A laugh)—but would proceed at once to the
smjecr matter of his motion. The Malik Marquis's
verch was p rvaded by one great fallacy or error—
namely, that the foreign policy of the present Ministe s
was entirely i.f their own tormation,while, in point of
fart, it was, in a great degree, but the billowing up that
of their predecessors, both I ring under the controul of
circumstances. The Notate M irquis was right in a tying,
that th, aspect of Europe was most unsettled and gloomy
tin our accession to office; but he ought to have added,
have err. d as to the 'nurse they pursued to remedy ihe
ills of Europe, on their accession to office, but solely were
not respoosible for the birth and existence of those evils.
—( Hear. hear.) The change in the French dynasty might,
in possibility, though not in probabi,ity, be as pernicious
as the Noble :Marquis had often asserted, but it was not
our doing. So ought the separation of the Netherlands;
hut nei her was it out doing—not even the tact of recog.
nizing either event. In saying this, he begged leave to
observe that there was nothing in the speech which the
Noble Marquis had quoted that he saw any reason for re•
tracting ; his conviction of the justice and excellence of the
conduct of the French in resisting the unconstitutional
co dinanees of Charles X. was then ant now precisely the
same --(H ar,) With respect to Greece, the No. le Mar-
quis u mild find tt at the conduct of :Ministers was equally
taiameles, That, in fact, they were but following on
the policy of their pf edecessor . 'There was one %entente
indeed, of the Noble :Mat quis, with which he entirely can
curred—the deprecating our orginal interference in the
manner in which we had interiered in the affairs of that
c'mun'ry. From the commencement ot the transaction, he
(Earl Grey) had ever condeitined our interference—(hear)
as wholly opposed to the best policy of this country. But
that was not the qmstion on his accession to office. Th. '
interference hail taken place, with its consequence—a war
with Tut key, and the destruction of the Turkish fleet by
' our navy, ~nd of the Tut kish army by the force of Russia.
Greece was separated by force from Turkey, and it became
the duty of the parties who had effected that separation to
co-operate anti adopt such arrangements as would put all
end to anarchy and bloodshed in that country, and place
it in a position in which it could maintain its own internal
tranquillity, and contribute to the general tranquillity of
Europe. It was with this view, as they all knew, that the
:Ministry of tae Duke of Wellington entered into a conven-
tion or treaty, under which Prince Leopold of Coburg
would he raised to the tto one of Greece. It was obvious
to every batty that the necessity of establishing the new
Sovereignty being once admitted, it followed, as a matter
of worse, that it could only he effected by means of pecu
niary assistance ; and accordingly the late Govelnmen
untried into arrangements with the other two powers,
France and Rossi a, under which a loan of 60,000 000 francs,
equal mahout 2,100,000/. sterling, was guaranteed to main-
tain the cost ot the new government, each party to be respon-
sible fir one-third of the loan. Th at arrangement, fo'
reasons which he was not then called upon to discuss,
arid with which they were all familiar, failed, and tin-
throne of Greece was heft unoccupied. Tue Noble Mar-
qiiis told them that he was ignorant whether Greece was
now as internally disturbed as when those arrangements
were in progress. This was a strange declaration front
one who showed hitnseif to be so vigilant a pursuer of
the Journals of the day as the Noble Marquis. Had he
sought for the information, he would hive learned that
that country was distracted hay anarchy and civil con-
tention—(hear)—rendering it the duty of those who had
been parties to the sepa ation and to the monarchical ar-
rangements to which lie had just referred, to co-operate
towards effecting a pacific settlement of that country.
Tnat could wily be d..ne by establishing a Government in
Greece, as was intended under the convention to which
the Noble. Duke's Adininistiation was a parry, ant hence
the appointment of Prince Otho to the sovereignty•
That appointment was ent rely formed in the manner it.
which the Noble Duke's Government conferred it upon
Prince LeopiiP, and the stipial ation of a pecuniary as
•istance was in amount and pi inciple similar to pecuniary as-
sistance which was promised Prince Leopold.—(Hear.,
This country, therefore, if the treaty which had been en-
tered into io.oulil receive the sanction of Parliament iii
taat respect would be hound tor one-third ot a sum rat
60,000 000 of francs, as an assistance to ti.e Ile"
Uoverwrieut of Greece. Tins was simply the state tot
,titeletearrur,,,aifunegdeirn:avetlinlielTiniteiwnetli.e,tiulieesrtitiieot
question
justifiable or not would be
country
o,iiseuuirnrse:,:arir,yny, c.
against
giciaiEounrvii consisted trs
ytaeiduipyiril
precaution
aaer
ttnisecurityat
eventual
u(e) an l
had
oi
:stil advance
ttu' cameliaersvm,tiaen:inlaltieblhae( silkeeebar:,nuGvtlyeil
ti,r :eine,
sc(t:elein::3'utlYtoi
re:
that
considers-
inntti
ttril
hi, ee,;
effectual; for the revenues i f Greece (~
.7rZiry wereva es stesblish,) would be amply sufficient to defray
the interest ant sinking fund of the loan; and the "nl:
cont neency in which tads country could lose, was in the
-
event of every thing going to ruin ; in which case ter
tatialy, if t e Pri"iP oh laded to discharge its obligations,
the Seel), irks wiaild be called on. But the proper time
tor discussing tae m tits of the case, and determining as
to the particular line ot conduct aiii,pted loy GoVeilitilellit
,youA be W .i n the tr sty came under consi '.ration ; the
present question being whether :Ministers were bound ill
Justice, sound policy, and lie might add, humanity, to en-
Allah a Government in Gieece. Our original interfereoce
might be right or it might not--he was not called on to

use that question, and he should only say, he had dis-
approved of it ; hut that interference received the appro-
I. akin of Parliament and the country. Indeed he never
knew a case in which public sympathy had displayed itse'4
m re strongly ; and he thought, at the time, that feel•
inee of sympathy,—however estimable in a moral poin
of view,—did not constitute proper grounds of state
policy. But the interference having been commenced to
the part of this country, the question arose whether Mi
nisters were not hound in justice and humanity, to
establish a Government in Greece, and afforil
that kind of assistance (scarcely admitting of the poseibi.
lity of less) without which no Government could he estie
hlisheil.—(Fiear, hear.) Did the Noble Marquis believe
that any prince would accept the Government ut Greece or
any other terms than those which had been agreed on it
the present case, and if net, did he teink it desirable t.
throw that country hick into a state of an irchy and con
fusion, which it was impossible to describe, by refusing
to afford the mean' of carrying on en effective Govern
ment ?—(Hear.) The treaty would and must be corn
inunicated to the House, far without the sanction of Par-
,ment its provisions could not he carried into effect; ate
it would h :ve been brought under consideration helot,
now, hut that some delay had taken place with respect ti
copies of protocols, and with a view to lay the fullest in-
formation before Parliament. More than this, he did not
think it necessary to say till the subject came fairly under
discussion, and if the Noble Marquis should then (Nee
to what hid been done, he (Earl Grey) must protest against
its tieing considered as a new line of policy on the part of
his Mcj•sty's present Ministers, who, in taking the coulee
which they had adopted, only followed in the footsteps of
their predecessors.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—He wished to make a few
observe ions on the answers which the Noble Earl had
given. It was true that the late Government bad made
up its mind to propose some arrangement on this
subject; but in order to judge correctly of their con-
duct, it was necessary to see the course of the proceedings,
and to attend to all the circumstances connected with it
He at present gave no opinion as to the treaty in question
With respect to the pecuniary aid to be allowed to Prince
Leopold, that Prince had lost no time in applying to his
Illustrious Ftienti for pecuniary assistance, and his Nobl
Find had answered Great Britain would not affair-
any. But it had been agreed that it was necessary the
the Prince should he supperted by a military force from
some foreign country, and it was soon felt that to fun nigh a
British force for this purpose would be liable to stron,
observations. It was resolved that a loan should be ne-
gotiated to enable the Prince to provide Swiss troops, of
the troops of some tith••r foreign country ; and it was pro.
posed to guarantee a loan fir this purpose, to the amount of
five hundred thousand pounds. Tile, however, was ob
jetted to on the part of the Itue Government, but before
the matter had b-en finally decided upon, the Prince wen-
to P iris. and there agreed with France and Russia for a
loan of sixty millions of france, which the three Power.
were to guarantee each to the extent of a third. On these
terms lie insisted, and on his intimating that he would net
accept the government of Greece without this sum, and
when his adhesion to the agreement was found abselutel
to depend upon the concurrence of the Government 01
this country to his term., they mist reluctantly assented, in
order to deprive the Prince of any pretext for refusing
to fulfil his part of the arrangement. They therefor.
declared their intention, but there was no treaty, and
no stipulation ; and lie had little doubt. even then, that
Prince Leopold would find some other opportunity of
i breaking off the negotiation ; and the letter of Count
Capo &Istria afforded him the pretext which he wanted,
and of that he imm-diately availed himself, and they wet e
deprived of the advantage of placing one who might be
considered as a lit itish Pi ince on the throne of Greece.
But after these transactions with Prince Leopold, they had
declared that they were perfectly clear of the %Omit, affair,
and that they would give no pecuniary assistance in any
arraneement which might be subsequently adopted, unless
the Prince to be cl,o-en ro f l the throne of Greece should
be completely and entirely satisfactory to Great Britain.
He could not consider this choice of Pt ince Orho of Ba
vain in that li lit. They had ma 'e no proposal with re
spect to him, for he was at that time a minor, of not
more than 14 years of age, and it was considered, that if
he were appointed, he would for some time be requiring
constant interferenee. The minority of the Prince must
necessarily perpetuate the interference of the three great
Powers; in in et ference, the advantage of discontinuing
which as soon as possible must be generally acknowledged.
One objection to Prince Otho, therefore, was his youth.
Another was, he was a Catholic. Their Lerdebips were,
perhaps, a • are that only about a fifth or a sixth of the
population of Greece were Roman Catholics. Their
tort met, the hostility of
than its hostility to Turks or to Jews. He professed
himself at a loss to understand why his Majesty's Govern
ment had not settled this question IS mouths ago.

EIJI GREY ohserved—lt must be evident to their
Lordships that it would he extremely improper in hits to
state, at the present moment, all the vat ious consithrations
which had dictated the concurrence of the Allied Powers
in the course which bad been pursued. I, had been a soh.
j.-ct of deep and anxious consideration. That several diffi
eulties had suggested themselves, he would not deny.
That several ohi ctions had appeared to the course ulti-
mately adop•ed, he would not deny. 'That the minority o
Prince 0 no was one of those o jections, he would n t
deny. But the qoe-tion was, wi.ether, admitting that there
were evils in the course pursued, it was not, upon a calm
consider ition of all the citcumstances, the course which it
was most expedient to pursue. More than that he would
not then say. 11, could not sit down, however, without
exore-sing his regret that the N..bie Earl had thrown out
it Elections on another illustrious Pi ince with reference to
his conduct respecting Greece, as unkind as, he (Lord
Grey) was persu,ded, thew were unfound:d. lie was sa-
tisfied that what had been done by Prince Leopold on the
occasion it) question had been done in good faith. Not
having been prepared for such a discu.sion as the present,
he had not Inked into the documents.

The Alarquis of LONDONDERRY observed, that
the Noble Earl had not satisfied him as to whether
Austria was a party, or was friendly to the engagement
respecting Greece. He should take every opportunity of
opposing the proposed grant, and of opposing the ar-
rangement.
The Duke of WELLINGTON corroborated the state-
ment made by his Noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen) respect-
ing the former proposal of a loan to Prince Leopold. He
d no wish wh.tever to throw any imputation on that
illustrious person ; but there were the pipers, which were
incapable of answer. To the seh-ction of Prince Otho, as
the Sovereign r4i Greece, his Majesty's late Government
hail objected, for reasons which still existed, although
they were certainly nut so strong as they were a year and
a half ago. But the situation of this country in the Me-
iiterrannean had maternity altered since that p-rind.
When h. saw Algiers still in possession of the French,
ootwithstanding their engagements to the contrary—
when he saw Ancona also in possession of the French—
and when he saw the neglect which in other cases our in-
terests had suffered, lie could nut but feel that those cir-
cumstances bore very fit cibly on the question at issue.
The Earl of HADDINGTON said, however they dif-
fered on other points, Noble Lords on both sides of the
(louse had concurred in condemning the policy which
dictated the original interference with the affairs of
Greece. He had waited in the hope that some Member
of Mr. Canning's Administation would have vindicated
his memory from that charge. But as that had not been
lone, he rose to say, that, in his humble opinion, if ever
toere was an interference justifi d by sound policy and
humanity, it was the interference with the affairs of
Greece embodied in the treaty of the 6th of July, 1827;
aid that it there still existed any hope of a final and sat.s.
actory arrangement of the aff.irs of Greece, that hope
owed its existence td the interierenc to which he had ad-
verted.

Lord Viscount GODERICH expressed his persuasion
'hat their Lordships would not think he had neglected
ilia duty by not vindicating, as he no doubt might have
lone if he had thought proper, the policy which had been
adverted to by his Noble Friend.
E GREY, adverting to what had fallen from the
Noble Duke respecting our position in the Mediterranean,
•aid, that whenever that subj ct should come regularly
under their Lord,hips' consideration, he should he prepared
ro meet the Noble Duke upon it The Noble Duke had
stated that the French retained possession of Algiers, not
withst inding their engagements to the contrary. He (Lord
Grey) had not been aide to find any engagement of that
uature.

The Duke of WELLINGTON repeated, that when the
Fr, rich took possessiiin of Algiers, they entered into ci-rtain
,tlagenients which they bad not performed. It might
t have been advisable to enforce the perfOrtndnee of those
ngagements, but mride they undoubtedly were.
The Earl of ABERDEEN corroborated the statement
if his Nit,le Frii-nd, and added that the new French Go-
vernment had confirmed the engagements in question.
Here the couversation dropped, and their Lordship
led.

The funeral of TOWNSEND, the Bow-street
!Beer, took place on Tuesday morning at St. Peter's
Church, Chelsea. He is said to have died worth 25,000/,
which is invested in the Funds.