The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-05 00:00:00

battle ships, as sea-going men-of-war, they are useless
ships—(" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier)—but they are
by no =mans useless as floating batteries. They are very
powerfully armed., and in the event, which I hope will not
occur, of :England's being engaged in any naval war, these
ships, defective as they undoubtedly are, would be found
extremly valuable as floating batteries for the protection of
our harbours. (Hear, hear.) I am, however, quite ready
to admit that I do very much wish that, even for
their prevent purpose, I could see these ships succeeded by
more effective and more useful ones. (Hear.) I think that
would be very desirable, but I must ask the gallant admiral
to make some little allowance for the shortness of the time
during which I have had to dealwith these matters, and the
amount of work that has had to be accomplished in that
time. It is the wish and intention of the present Board of
Admiralty that, at all events as the commissions of these
ships expire'--I will not say that under some circumstances
it might not be done sooner, but at all events as their com-
missions expire—they should be replaced by stronger and
more effective ships. (Hear.) At the same time I cannot,
for several reasons, agree with the gallant admiral that it
is expedient simultaneously to exchange all theseblockships
for larger and more effective men-of-war. Inthe first place,
looking to the duties which they have to discharge as train-
ing ships for the coast volunteers, who are there instructed
in gunnery, and the consequent wear and tear to which they
are exposed, I was unwilling, considering the state to which
our effective strength was reduced, to expose one-third of it
to such deterioration. By the end of the present year our
line-of-battle ships will be nearly 80 per cent. stronger than
I found them, and I shall then be more at liberty to deal
with matters of this kind. There are also other reasons to
which I must request the attention of the gallant admiral.
One of these is the great expense which would attend the
paying off and throwing out of commission nine ships of
this class, and commissioning other ships in their places.
That is a consideration which we must not altogether for-
get. But there is another, to which I attach greater im-
portance—viz., that we cannot effect such an exchange
without making a very considerable demand upon the
strength and labour of our dockyards. From the causes
which I explained the other evening our strength in the
dockyards has been, and is at present, so taxed to supply
the defects to which I then alluded, that unless it
was imperatively necessary I should be unwilling
to throw upon them the additional labour of pre-
paring an additional number of 'ships merely to sub-
stitute—for that is all that I should have it in my
power to do—screw 80's for these blockships I hope this
explanation will be satisfactory to the gallant admiral. In
the course of his observations he travelled a good deal
beyond the terms of his notice, and referred to the reserves
which we have it in our power to call out. Ido not think
that this is quite a fitting moment to discuss that subject,
and I will therefore limit myself to saying that in this re-
spect her Majesty's Government are more willing to go
a-head as the gallant admiral calls it, than he gives them
credit for. At all events, I can assure him that their atten-
tion is at present directed to the state of our naval defences,
and I earnestly hope that at no future day will the gallant
admiral have cause to reproach us with having neglected
them. It now only remains for me to answer his question
as to when it is the intention of the Government to put in
force the recommendations of the Commission upon the
manning of the navy. I will answer thatquestion as frankly
as I can. In doing so it is not necessary for me to become
the apologist or champion of my right hon. friend the mem-
ber for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham', who is well able to defend
himself ; but I must say that I think ' the observations of
the gallant admiral were eminently unjust to my right hon.
friend. (Hear, hear.) In fact, his remarks with regard to
the report of the committee of 1852 were quite incorrect.
He said that the report of the Duke of Northumberland's
committee of that year had been locked up, and no notice
taken of it. Now, upon every occasion on which I have
addressed the house upon this subject since I held my pre-
sent office I have acknowledged the services which my right
hon. friend the member for Carlisle rendered to the country,
when First Lord of the Admiralty, by taking most decided
action upon the report of that committee. It is owing
to the action then taken by her Majesty's Government, by
the adoption of the continuous service and coast volun-
teer systems in accordance with the recommendations of
that report, that our means of manning the navy at this
moment are what they are. The gallant admiral seems to
have forgotten these facts, and has consequently dealt
rather hard justice, not to the Government of which
I am a member, but to a former one, the members of
which certainly did their duty nobly in this respect. When
the hon. and gallant admiral asks me when the Government
intend to put in force the recommendations of the Commis-
sion for manning the navy, I beg to remind him that the
report of the commissioners consists of two distinct parts.
The latter portion refers to the important question, how wo
are hereafter to connect our naval service with the mercan-
tile marine in the event of any emergency arising.. The
hon. and gallant admiral will admit that that portion of the
report is of a very comprehensive and complicated charac-
ter. It involves a great outlay of public money ; it involves
considerable changes, which must be maturely weighed ;
and the measures which it recommends are of a nature
which no Government could carry out upon the instant.
(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances I cannot say more
than that we are sensible of the importance of the report,
and shall give it full and prompt consideration. The other
part of the report stands upon different grounds ; it consists
of suggestions of differentmodesin which the commissioners
think we may make the present continuous service system
more effective for the public interests. I admit the great
value of those suggestions, and with regard to most, if not
all of them, I believe it to be competent to the, Admiralty,
without the assistance of Parliament, at once to carry them
into effect. We are prepared to consider them as expedi-
tiously as we can, and, if they meet our approval, to put
them in execution as promptly as possible. (Hear, hear.)
Some of them, in fact, have been already under our consi-
deration ; a very important one engaged our attention to-
day, and I hope to-morrow we shall be in a condition to act
upon it. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER. explained that he had never read the
report of 1852, nor had he ever seen anybody who had done

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 5, 1859.

But during the present year it was anticipated that
several of these regiments and battalions would be
spared from India for the home service. It was
important that the house should know the data on
which this estimate was founded. He would, therefore,
read a :letter from Lord Clyde to his 11.11.. H. the Com-
mander-in-Chief, which would show that the calculation he
had made was no wild speculation, or founded on mere con-
jecture. The letter was dated—

played by Sir W. Armstrong in regard to this invention,
they were exceeded by the liberality with which ho at once
presented to the Government the patent, for which they
must have paid almost any sum which he liked to demand.
He made no stipulations, and when his noble friend at tfie
head of the Government asked him (Gen. Peel) to think of
some sum which might be presented to Mr. Armstrong, he
was at once relieved from all difficulty by that gentleman
proposing to accept a sum of £20,000 spread over 10 years,
which would secure to the country his services as consult-
ing engineer of rifled ordnance. For himself, as he had
said, he made no stipulations, but for the firm to which he
then, but no longer, belonged he made this arrangement,
that if they erected_ extensive buildings for the manufac-
ture of these guns, and did not receive sufficient orders to
cover the expenditure, an arbitrator, who should be the
Attorney-Gieneral of the day, should decide what com-
pensation they should receive from the Government
for the capital which they had laid out. (Hear, hear.)
He was convinced that the house would be of opinion
that nothing could be more liberal than the manner in
which Sir W. Armstrong had dealt with the Government ;
and would think that he well deserved the honour which,
by her own special and personal desire, had been con-
ferred upon him by her Majesty. (Cheers.) The manu-
facture of some of the larger of these guns was now being
proceeded with by Sir W. Armstrong's late partners ; it was
also the intention of the Government to make some of them
at Wqolwich under the direction of that gentleman, and
when they had got some of the largest size they would be
tried against masonry and earthwork, till which was done
it was impossible to say exactly what effect they would pro-
duce upon fortifications. One thing he might predict, and
that was that sooner or later they would supersede the
whole existing armament of the country. He was afraid
that the hon. member for Lambeth must make up his mind
to a large expenditure on that account ; but he was sure
that he would not grudge any money the expenditure of
which would be for the benefit of the country. (" Hear,
hear," from Mr. Williams.) It might alsd be necessary to
reconstruct a great many of the existing works ; but he
would not trouble the house with any observations upon
that subject. Nor would he now enter upon the considera-
tion of the different votes. ' When the house came to them
in regular order he would give a full explanation of the
grounds of increase or decrease, as the case might be; but
in the meantime would conclude by moving the vote of
122,655 men, exclusive of those employed in India.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that this was the largest esti-
mate for the army which had occurred for the last 30 years,
with the exception of two years. In the year 1852.3 the
number of 'men was 119,519, and the expenditure for this
year was £11,560,000, being an excess of £2,546,000 over
that for the year 1852.3, whilst the difference in the number
of men was only 3,136. He should be glad to know the
cause of this discrepancy. In the year 1854 the number of
generals in the army was 234, but on looking into the army
list he had discovered that the number was 500—("oh,
including those in the marines and in the Indian army. He
thought the most nervous man in the country must feel
secure upon learning that the disposable forces of the Go-
vernment, including the marines and the Irish force, were
168,000, besides which the Government had the power of
calling out 80,000 militia. He would add nothing further
upon this vote, but would follow the hon. and gallant general
through the votes as he proposed them to the committee.
Sir A. WILLOUGHBY wished to ask the gallant gene-
ral what was the regulation as to when the period of paying
troops in depot commenced, and how many troops were in
depot at the present moment ? He confessed he was not so
much alarmed for British finance as for Indian finance.
How was it that at that moment, when the mutiny in India
was nearly quelled, 12 companies of foot artillery, number-
ing 2,000 men, were destined for the Indian service?
Slr DE L. EVANS (who • was very indistinctly heard)
expressed his approval of a considerable portion of the right
hon. and gallant gentleman's statement, especially that
portion which had reference to Sir Wm. Armstrong and
the acceptance of his invention. He trusted the Govern-
ment would not delay making such arrangements as would
enable them to have a large supply of the Armstrong cannon
made. While agreeing upon this portion of the right hon.
and gallant gentleman's statement, he still thought there
were some points which called for explanation. With respect
to recruiting, for instance, he suggested whether it might
not be desirable to hive a recruiting establishment entirely
independent of the depots. The cause of the frequent de-
sertions which were admitted to take place iu the army and
in the militia called for serious consideration with a view to
checking the evil. It might, he knew, be said that the
facilities afforded by railways tended to increase the evil,
but surely some steps might be taken by precautions at the
railway stations, or otherwise, to frustrate the attempts of
those who desired thus summarily to quit the service. The
system of recruiting in the militia exhibited very great mis-
management, and he understood that it was conducted in
such a manner that the two services competed with each
other for recruits—the line taking one side of the street and
the militia the other. It seemed to him that the inducement
to enter the militia ought not to be so great as to enter the
line, because in the one case the service was but temporary
and partial, and in the other continuous. The number of
desertions, taking them at 20,000 for the army and the
militia, was so large that it was evident there must be some-
thing extremely faulty in the system. (Hear, hear.) There
was another subject upon which he thought the committee
might desire some inforMation, and that had r efereneg to the
great quantity of artillery under orders for India. He under-
stood the hon. and gallant gentleman to say that 12 batteries
were aboUt to be sent to India, although it might be said that
the mutiny had been entirely suppressed. Why 73 pieces of
artillery, almost sufficient for an army in the field, were to
be sent to India at this moment required some explanation.
With regard to cavalry, it would appear that half of our
force was in India and the other pretty nearly divided be-
tween home and the colonies. We had at present only 35
battalions and 5,000 cavalry at home, which was, compara-
tively speaking, a small force, but one which he hoped would
not be reduced, as he had always been of opinion that the
mass of our forces ought to be kept as much as possible in
the centre. (Hear, hear.)
The SECRETARY for WAR said, in reply to the ob-
servationa of the hon. gentleman the member for Lambeth,
that there were 500 general officers on the establishment, he
had to inform him that the actual number was 262 only, or
about half what he had stated.
Mr. WILLIAMS—I took the number from the Army
List.

" Allahabad, Nov. 1, 1858.
" In short, I think I can now predict, almost with confi-
dence, that your Royal Highness's wishes with respect to
the return of certain regiments may, be accomplished early
in the spring without real inconvenience to this country.
I should imagine that it may be possible to dispense with
the 86th from Bombay, the oldest regiment from Madras
and from this presidency, in addition to the four already
ordered to England by your Royal Highness. As the
Bengal Light Cavalry ought to be almost fit for duty in the
spring, I should hope that the 9th Lancers might also re-
turn home. Perhaps it might not be safe to extend reduc-

tion further for thi; season‘ri'
He knew there was great anxiety felt to know what regi-
ments were likely to return from India in the course of the
next year. Those regiments would all
.be borne on the
British establishment for the next year, and were, there-
fore, included in tho number of men.which the house would
be asked to vote. They were the 9th Lancers, the 10th
Foot, the 29th Foot, the 32d, the 53d, the 78th, the 84th,
and another regiment (the name of which, frorrilthe man-
ner in which the hon. and gallant general dropped his voice,
it was impossible to catch). It had been necessary that he
should come to some arrangement with his noble friend the
Minister for India as to the number of regiments which
should return from that country in the course of the year ;
for if any number came home unexpectedly, or more came
than had been provided for in the estimate, there would
naturally be an excess upon the British establishment. This
would require either a supplementary vote to be proposed,
or the Government would be obliged to reduce some of the
second battalions which they had raised. He had, there-
fore, allowed in the course of the ensuing financial year
for seven regiments of infantry now in India, and one
additional regiment of cavalry. This would give 11 regi-
ments of cavalry and 66 regiments of infantry for the
Indian establishment, and 14 regiments of cavalry and 64
regiments of infantry for the British establishment. He
trusted, then, the house would agree that it would be very
impolitic, if not impossible, to reduce the number of these
regiments, or to vote a single man less than ho now asked
for. He would next proceed to show that it would be equally
impolitic for him to ask for a larger number of men. If they