The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-17 00:00:00

versial matter introduced to your notice in the speech of
the Right Rev. Prelate. I shall address myself to the only
part of the question which can relate to myself or my col-
leagues, in the whole of the speech which the Right Rev.
Prelate has delivered ; and that is, with respect to the con-
duct of Dr. Murray in sanctioning, or recommending, or using,
or employing the work of one Peter Dens ; of whom, I dare
say, your Lordships have never heard, until he was mentioned
in certain public disputations which have lately taken place in
this City; but who, I believe, was a professor of theology
in the University of Louvain about the middle of the last
century.—(Hear, hear.) Now in answer to the appeal made
to me by the Right Reverend Prelate, I do not hesitate
to say that I am extremely sorry that Dr. Murray is a Ro-
man Catholic Bishop ; I am deeply sorry that the Ro-
man Catholic religion prevails in Ireland at regret
sincerely that the principles and tenets of the Roman Catholic
religion have been established in that country—but I must beg
leave to say, that the imputation which the Right Rev. Pre-
late has attempted to attach, or has attached, to Dr. Murray,
of having adopted the work of Dens, is not, in my opinion,
and so far as I can judge from the way in which the work has
been characterized, a sufficient ground to disqualify him for
the situation which he now holds in Ireland.—( Cheers. )
Let it not for one moment be supposed that I enter into any
defence of this work ; it is, I dare say, sufficiently objection-
able, and it contains, I apprehend, the same objectionable doc-
trines which are to be found in all the Roman Catho-
lic works of that period. I am perfectly willing to admit
that the members of the Roman Catholic Church are not
remarkable for their tolerance ; but I say that if you allow
to Roman Catholics the possession of civil rights, and an equal
participation of them with Protestants, you are not justified
in preven'ing them from holding those tenets and principles,
and recommending those works which undoubtedly have the
sanction of the authority of their Church. The Right Rev.
Prelate has also on very slender grounds, in my mind, made a
charge of misrepresentation against Dr. Murray, and in very
strong terms, though at the same time perfectly consistent with
your Lordships' orders, accused that Bishop of asserting what
was unfounded and untrue. The whole ground for this accu-
sation was, that Dr. Murray had spoken of the opinions of
Dens respecting the right of temporal States to compel their
subjects by confiscation and other punishments to embrace re-
ligious doctrines of which their conscience did not approve,
instead of stating that these punishments were inflicted by the
authority of the Church. To say, then, that Dr. Murray was
guilty of gross misrepresentation simply because he interpre-
ted this work of Dens in a manner which I have described,
does certainly appear to me to be a most unfair and unfounded
charge preferred by the Right Reverend Prelate.—( Hear. )
If I understood the speech of the Right Reverend Pre-
late, the whole tenor of it went to prove that the Roman
Catholic religion is of a much more bigotted and super-
' stitious, of a far more virulent and violent, character in
Ireland, than as it exists in the other Roman Catholic States of
Europe. The Right Reverend Prelate alluded to these
States as possessing inhabitants who, though they pro-
fessed the Catholic religion, were nevertheless under a
greater degree of control by the State than the Roman Ca-
tholics of Ireland. The Right Rev. Prelate also accounted
for the difference between persons of the same religion,
though residing in different countries, by saying that this
difference arose from the way in which the Roman Catholic
religion was preached in Ireland, being a departure from or at
variance with the mode established in other Catholic States.
I do think, however, that there are other reasons which may
more satisfactorily and justly account for this difference in the
habits and feelings of those belonging to the same religious
persuasion. One cause of the difference is, I think, that in
other European States every disposition is manifested to con-
fer and communicate with the members of the Roman Catho-
lic Church, and by that means that a salutary and efficient con-
trol was exercised over their faith and its doctrines is beyond a
doubt.— (Hear, hear.) In discussing this question, my Lords,
I am most anxious to forget the disputes, and the discords,
and the bloodshed of former times.—( Cheers.) My Lords,
I don't wish to go back to them. But when, my Lords,
it is said that it has been the precept of the Roman Ca-
tholic religion to extirpate heretics, your Lordships must
forgive me if I remind you that extirpation was also the
principle and practice of Protestant Governments.—(Hear,
hear.) When I say that, do not, my Lords, at all suppose
that I mean to sanction those opinions which are generally,
promulgated, that Ireland has undergone centuries of mis-
rule by acts of mis-government, because if you look into her
history, you will find it very difficult to lay your finger on
chapters where any difference in the policy of the Govern-
ment is related to have been adopted. But certain it is, my
Lords, that up to the last sixty years the policy of the Go-
vernment of that country was the extirpation of the Roman
Catholic religion.—( Hear, hear.) This design was first car-
ried into effect by the confiscation of the province of Ulster,
_in the time of James 1., and bestowing it on Protestant sub-
jects. Then Lord Strafford attempted to Protestantise Con-
naught; but was diverted from his purpose by being called
home to quell disorders in his own country. Again Cromwell
deluged a great part of the country with blood, and extermi-
nated the inhabitants with fire and sword, for the express and
avowed purpose of extirpating the Catholic religion; and,
lastly, my Lords, the withering, desolating, and destructive
system of penal laws was established, with a view of extirpat-
ing the Roman Catholic religion, by subjecting those who
professed it to every loss, and inflicting on them every insult.
—(Loud cheering.) These, my Lords, were a few of the
means taken to extirpate the Catholic religion in Ireland. Let
even these, my Lords, be weighed against the extirpation of
heretics, dwelt upon in a page of Dens, one of the professors
of theology in the University of Louvain.—(The Noble Lord
sat down amidst loud cheering.)
The Marquis of WE STM EA TH said that the Noble Lord
had dwelt a great deal on the ravages made in Ireland by
Cromwell with fire and sword : but the Noble Lord should not
forget that Cromwell acted in the manner described after a
meeting was held in one of the abbeys of Connaught, by the
priests, for the purpose of murdering and massacring the
Protestants. He was not such an idiot as to believe that these
things could be totally forgotten.—( Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON admitted that the present
discussion would lead to no benefit, except so far as it might
produce a knowledge of the real state of Ireland. A petition
was presented, complaining of the persecution suffired by the
Protestants in that country, and from that grew what bad
followed since. He would distinctly and openly say that the
Protestant people and Clergy of Ireland had reason—strong
and frightful reason—to complain that their rights and pro-
perty were not sufficiently protected by the Government of the
country.—( Cheers.) This want of due protection was in a
great measure the cause of the animosities, heartburnings,
and disputes that prevailed in that country. He did not wish
to see a renewal of the dissensions and disturbances of

Ireland. He deeply deplored them. God knew he would
most gladly end them, and if there was alive one man more
anxious than another to restore that country to tranquillity
and good order he was that person.—(Loud cheering.)
But it was not by oppressing one party and elevating another
—it was not by extinguishing one species of property, the pro-
perty of the Church, that equality and the security of pro-
perty co&d be established in that country.—(Cheers.) It
was this conduct of the Government, this supineness at least,
if not criminal indifference, or perhaps partiality, that caused
all this angry feeling in Ireland, and these discussions in that
House.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said that, as to the
allusions to the tone, manner, and conduct of his Right Rev.
Friend (the Bishop of Exeter), he would say that he thought
they were unjust. The conduct of his Rev. Friend was straight-
forward, fair, and justifiable in this transaction. He was not
guilty of any inflammatory language, or of any act that did
not become him as a Christian Bishop and a Peer of Parlia-
ment. He saw nothing of the incendiary about his friend ;
and he did not expect that such an imputation would have
been cast upon him as was by implication cast upon him. He
(the Archbishop of Canterbury) when the subject of this
standard work of Romish theology for the use of the Irish
Priests was brought before the public notice, at onee to amaze
and shock them, expected to hear some better defence than
the letter of the head of the Irish Romish Church. He ex-

pected some better explanation. He never wished to express
his opinions pointedly. But really the time was now come
when it became the duty of every one to withhold his senti-
ments no longer.—(Cheers.) The conduct of the Rev. Gen-
tleman, whose name had been introduced into the debate, was
not to be passed over lightly, when connected with the prin-
ciples and doctrines inculcated in this most objectionable book.
At one time it was calculated to excite indignation, at another
time sorrow. He deplored that any Christian Pastor should
have made such a defence. He (the Archbishop of Canter-
bury) would be the last man to foment strife or animosity be-
tween any classes of the people, and he fervently prayed to
see peace and concord established ameng all classes—tran-
quillity and brotherly Christian fellowship in Ireland was
above all things the dearest wish of his heart. He wished
also to see the conduct of the Romish Priests in unison with
the principles of the Catholic Church, to an especial con-
nexion with which' they advanced such a title. Let them
show that their conduct was in harmony with the Church of
Christ, and he would forgive many of their errors in the hope
that they were involuntary.—( Hear, hear.) This standard
body of Roman Catholic divinity was published by authority.
There could be now no fair or even plausible denial of the
fact. The work was not disclaimed before, and therefore it
was sanctioned. There was nothing that could tend more to
pacify Ireland than that the Romish Bishops should act in
the spirit of the religion which they profess, and should
disclaim the grave charges brought against them. Until
they do this they must be held responsible for most of the
disorganization of the country, and for the offences laid at
their door.—(Cheers.) On these facts he (the Archbishop
of Canterbury) reflected deeply. There was another thing
that weighed heavily upon his mind : it was the conduct of
the Romish Priests in denouncing from their altars the
Protestants, holding them up to the misguided and sus-
ceptible multitude as objects of just vengeance, and periling
not only their properties but their lives.--( Hear.) They
were desecrating the place of worship, end using that in-
fluence which they should only exercise for the spiritual wel-
fare of their flocks to the detriment, nay, death of peaceful
and respectable men, whose only crime was that they did
not bow down before them, and acknowledge their supremacy.
He was surprised that in a Church whose discipline was so
strict—where insubordination was such a crime— that this con-
duct of the Priests, which was at once as abhorrent to all
principles of Christianity as it was subversive of all social
order and national tranquillity, did not receive the censure
and check of the Church. He could not help saying that the
impunity given to such conduct was a direct sanction of it.
—(Cheers.) The persecution of the Irish Protestants at
present was precisely the same as that carried on againit
the early Christians—the same tumultuous meetings—the same
exclusion from all fellowship with their fellow-men—the
same denunciation against their lives, their liberty, and
property.--(Hear, hear.) The Romish Bishops, who saw
the current of events running on with such desolating fury,
did Ireland, and in Rot arrest_ it, incurrc4 as awful respousk