The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-02 00:00:00

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used si,ch a measure as the one now brought forward. But if he
pions select persons who differed most from each other in their opi.
the resPecting the appropriation of Church property, he should name
warar'°h!. Gentlemen opposite The Noble Lord had, in bringing for.
church', Proposition, confined his intentions to the mere surplus of
and effie after amply and sufficiently providing for the wants
that _ c'enrY Of the Protestant establishment, and had proposed to apply
lowed by
to the general purposes of education, but he had been fol.
r't by the Right Hon. Member for Staffordshire, and the Hon. and
:lined Member for the Tower Hamlets, who had expressed
Irhie'is,el!es as totally opposed to the Established Church in Ireland,
they f theY had described as a nuisance to be abolished. Could
atreeroget, as they had been told, that the late Government had
of that 11 the appropriation of Church property, and yet a member
Government now told them that no part of it was. to be
gP"ed to other than ecclesiastical purposes, until the claims of the
wrot!stant Church had been fully satisfied, and then that surplus
issti‘tt hne applied to none but the purpose of education? Let
.them
siitiepesetoi'ciov , hear so much of unanimity. But this question did not
on such insignificant circumstances. The main and only
ecoesi n;:ras, whether Church property was available to other than
do efa.'s"'el purposes. They were told that the mere appropr.ia-
Irei.... a limited part of that property would pacify and satisfy
believe But Would any man who knew the state of that country
it that if the amount of that property were diminished,
saiistu'l require the less exertion to collect tithes ? So far from
ecatianog the Government to collect the tithes in that country, it
tteolitteez iid7legainsdes:ise to
which,,
if not conceded, exctations o farther concessions, and
would but increase dis-
ar and agitation. This appropriation was, as he conceived,
:j to moral duty, in direct variance with its original pur-
Vle aangerous to the State, and hazardous to the welfare and sta-
of the Protestant Church in that country.
tttewi FOWELL BUXTON should not have trespassed on the
Which", of the House if it were not for an amendment
thourht'? had to propose.—(Heare hear.) He should have
sese4i ,it unnecessary to advert to observations which fell from
those".
with on the other side of the House, attributing to
tives, `Yith whom he coincided as being actuated by unworthy mo-
rit were not for some remarks which fell from the Hon.
taaroe for Newark with respect to the state of education, and the
of_,nutena.nce of the Established Church hi Ireland. The spread
..1!s cation and the maintenance of the Established Church, were,
ktut'coopinion, very. different things, and involved vast and impor-
What asequences in their separate adjustment.—( Hear, hear.
Roti_
,were the questions which were brought before the
el, 1. The Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had distinctly told
ithattr 13e what Ireland and its distractions have been, and
prr,lss distractions may be.' Again they have told us tht the
tesirarit Church is at stake, and if you carry this motion Pre-
treat 'lsm w;11 be abandoned in the south of Ireland. With such
toss a•udimPortant considerations, he could not consistently listen
14o:tyres attributing to him a desire to unseat the present Admi-
k,o, on the party quibbles which were said to actuate some
101.7isTs)jeinbers. There was no one who felt more then he did for
oi. "le Lord who had spoken on the other side of the House,
to hrr
w
e, as no one who ought to feel more deeply indebted
brought ni having formed part of that Administration which
Other
forward and carried a question which he thought no
r l‘litlisti7 would have done. It was a questien. beyond such
te'ioust,itderation that could induce him to offer his opinion in opposi-
sq, csi:' the Noble Lord. It appeared to him that the question re-
itself into three distinct principles. First, was there a
ii4:ldl,,fuod belonging to the Church beyond what its claims re-
Secondly, was there also a surplus fund beyond the
Itssities of the Irish Church, should that Church much in ?
e• • diY, having made a provision as it was, having made a pro-
as it might be, was there any excess still remaining ?
fuTl believed there would still be a surplus. He did not
state into any nice calculations on a comparison of the
e 4of the Churches in England and Ireland; yet he was con-
-11',"(1 the endowments of the Church of Ireland were greater
t_hese of England. It was an important mistake to say that a
La gathered weight or influence by its wealth or possessions.
• --"'"•) If splendid aggrandizements and enormous endow-
thos could have rendered it effectual in converting the people,
t5.2w01.:1(1 not have a single Catholic in the country. They had had
pe7s,trth, they. had had Protestant ascendancy, and they had the ex-
ses.thent, esey had seen how it had failed. He should like to
tieriZe experimLent tied by a body of men, who if they entered the
toist.rY, did so, not foe wealth and honours, but from no other
slees but that of doing good, and then he should anticipate a
listfte,sat result. He did not think it was in human nature to ye-
livZe influence of men, who, showing the utmost self-denial,
tfiQotti private retirement, and who show by their conduct and
(Chu deportment the visible influence of their divine embassy.—
se-'11,) But then it w said your example in Ireland would be
Stnieedent for E landas Be it so.—(Cheers.) He desired
beising more than to see this principle of the surplus funds
So Wren from the Clergy for the education of the people. —(1-1•1r.)
to th." from being an enemy to the Church, or sacrificing anything
tholVreiudices of those who were opposed to it, he should think,
es;" was confi ed in his impression by what fell from the
r for Newark, that he was promoting its best interests.
the rtlght there would be found to be a surplus of revenue in
the :"41 Churh. The Hon. Gentleman who soke lat night of
ten44.-t,eiihs,abnisd ahop ofireax.Armagh, told them he was note worth s
more than
tt.4 'Jos -. MEMBER-Fourteen thousand.
Ism!' Fr 33UXTON in continuation—Well, then, fourteen thou-
fle I think from that, and even from ten thousand, a
iho e, 'he' reduction could take place.— (Hear.) Let it be
whe re the clergy were non-resident and wealthy,
lee°lidirte,e smes should be cut down. He came next to the
he ho,is eiese.e. Would the ChUrch, supposing it to increase, as
hues? (10-,b‘'. it would, be amply provided for out of the reve-
,4,, emit ujh t the Protestant Church in Ireland would in-
ec c Catholic Church always had an unfair advan-
til ei• that fis:ei• t,ff , persecuted religion. There was something in
(at': bleinCsuhject to pains and penalties for the profession
'll4 I'l'l it ular fora' of belief that made one adhere to its doc-
*4 diva should be recollected that bribery, though the time
P,„_rr, was one of the means taken to propagate the
;54 'trltalit religion in Ireland--the . bribery which offered
he estate of the father, provided he conformed to the
tiiktded t ith. He honoured the Protestant religion,. but
.he
pro testant ascendancy. There was a broad. distinction
___-religious establishment and a political faction.—
, Viten the Protestant religion condescended to appeal to
41;4. •s‘ d basest passions of their nature, no wonder that the
the ces of its • e friends could not be realized. No wonder that
tlient-atholie so turned a deaf ear to a religion which was tendered to
theby ths •-ee who bore the Scriptures in one hand and the sword
!sit. . other.
In the south of Ireland, he did not think the Catholic
tp~Wa3 any longer a persecuted faith—it was nearer approach-
:is thtowillraphant one.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
i`ritth,-tWit whe the people became acquainted with the divine
the Rneformed Religion, and when they saw the solid
heliepahot Is of the Church they would embrace them. He did not
ttht re wasin existence a more apostolic, a purer, or a more
s'e '"-srf,ettl set of men then those who now formed the ministry of
ishsel Church in Ireland.—(Loud cheers from the MI-
• mai os ) He would do justice to those good men despite
fi.14(1 *rt fro.; the opposite side of the House. On these facts
• " hop n the loss of persecution which the Catholic
• Etc' lis-tained and on the increased spirituality of the Church
We'atig i_• He believed the Church would increase ; at all
illat the h.o would give it a fair trial. It was agreed on all hands
b stop inefulness of the clergy should be extended. Why should
cgl:;14 there, and why should it be supposed that the Churchof
being once inefficient in Ireland would always remain so?
t•
4 lir play—relieve it of the disastrous advantages which it. is
'mess, arid he believed honestly thati the established religion
•,I.l.°Pti• 91 Irish. So convinced was he that t would, thattwhen the
he le would arrive, he should propose a resolution e make a
ila,ststDr,c• vision for that increase.—( Hear. ) This, he understood,
that
convenient time to make such a resolution, but he hoped,
h-mat at time would arrive, the Noble Lord would tell him
v, •,e
ed in such' a proposition.—( Hear, hear.)
I,l4lsio°lllhcid no'cownecnorrme to the last point—supposing there would be a
i its Send the provision for the Church, how were they to ap-
-N1 must that he had been greatly gratified by one
that 415141 ' "y,
h t no
sh, ssr„, • ze—nameliy, t a Irish Gentleman had risen to claim
ti'ol ts s" us for the rish landlords. He should have felt it his
1, e Pore such a proposition, as it would have been a deselcract
lurch property to sec purposes, ove al ,
)14i 11,"‘I • 'lrrit.isg peace to Ireland.-( Hear, from the Irish benches. )
Ott/ w • ss nappy to say, had not been proposed, and yetpthe
y:tY 14)4 • 'entleman o site had objected to the Church ro-
'ere I al 1.1 shied to any but Ecclesiastical purposes. But Ido not
that he objects to application of surplus (if any) to the
te'thi oft he people through the medium of the Church.
004 give him (Mr. F. Buxton) more pleasure or satis-
t-',Zttt . such a proceeding.—(Ministerial cheers.) He
tq,,44,l"!'at so oh a measure would be a remedy and compensation
ytt t, for. the series of persecutions whiehdtha courrnory had
thQ rte` k Nit? but t.l le thing was impossible.—(Lou cheerisn
so
O,n, • ) The Church in Ireland presented itselfd odious
Irish-" h. id been so connected with Protestant ascen ancy—
W‘Y A injuries and insults was so fresh in the minds of the
sflitell t hat they would not even receive truths from that
tame 7, 0 a ) Teaching the people through the medium
`-'no cein was, therefore, saying that they would not be
al I.—+,(Cheers.) He now came to the resolution of the
'orii and he regretted deeply that he had been . induce,d o
I°4tte• 41 Inhis resolut„ion the words " moral and religious, and
" genera). The difference_ might appear to some little
k Plat:St was great.
He thoi.ight • they were bound to hew the
tthre f England that if they alienated the Church property they_e
„,fot 'ad to apply, it to moral and religious instruction. H.
e • hoped the Noble Lord would not object to the re-insertion
k-kos ; stores, and if they were introduced he should entirely
s,,,sti a the motion of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) What
ti, had they heard of Ireland last night ? The Right Hon.
ss,, ant Member for Launceston had asked them to name any pe-
'N;, eke their own time-. to go back even to the da of Henryirthe
4,;• dhe would show them that the system pursued in Ireland
jeS'ts,es o* a system of war, bloodshed, and rapine.—( Cheers. ) He
• , 'hat the only way' to snake the people of Ireland good sub-
'as to make them good Protestants, and that he believed
&sr 'lily be effected by a general system of moral and religious
; tioa. He meant not to hurt the feelings of any Hon. Mem-
!: op ant it vr.ts evident that there was error somewhere, either on
1,4( e side or the other, and the only way to banish error and
truth-ewes to give the people a moral and religious education
sold, in his opinion, be applying the surplus revenues to the best
sh, glen--to make Protestants of the Catholics. It was the only way,
• ,e Present state of Ireland, of removing the religious animosity
a existed there, and which had been the bane of that country
li7l hich had produced great evils, but none greater or deeper than
,
of standing in the way of propagating the religion of the
iti-..-,lCheers, and loud cries for Mr. Shaw. )
• nibn• TWISS, however, proceeded. He said almost every
s who had et spoken, had laid great stress upon the vast
o,tilee of the Yquestion then before the House. If the Mem-
sh 'Quid admit that the question involved the existence, not only
t Irish, but of the English Church, then it was of the utmost im-
tt to-„ee,,* But considering it only as to the chance of a small surplus
s -.uered it as one of the most trifling of any that had been
es4te,--at session. The only argument that had been used in the
astil ,Was the old one of the hardship imposed upon the Catholic
e 4 by the payment of tithes. But the proposition before.
%
• would not relieve him from any part of that herds
'1
err id riot believe that the Catholic peasant or the small far-
t 8 'gill be induced to ply tithes as a land charge, merely because
eam all portion of it was to be applied for the purposes
• m4eatie is. The principal supporters of the resolution were
v'ho 1, ant session had Opposed that of the Hon. Member for St.
I:ls—he did not wish to pick up a single or stray expression. of
alet—,,;°'l. Met giber, but when he saw a series of members going (ha-
) übreally op posed to their recorded opinions upon so important a
niust say that it bore ail the. appearance of faction. The
s ,• • member then compared the opinions of Lord John Russell as
; ,clued upon Afr. Ward's motion, and those he expressed on open-
th
e debate, and contended that as there was now no
'e information before the House than they were possessed of,
I 411 nd
rytrbi,l;Lill- of course the argument was as strong now as then.
tl Althorp, after stating his plans_ to the House„ said, " I trust
give satisfaction." Then a cheer followed,. and the
°r added, " That cheer assures me of it." His Lordship
"ithteres„himself tat he had effectually succeeded.
. But did his
• aly rs, on. Friend and his colleague do their duty by this
If they did, what was the standard of their demands,
*inch they asked in tones of such inveterate complaint? But