The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-04 00:00:00

perFa the iii-eainqe of the Bill which stated that there were_
elk:litres in the charters by which the bodies corporate had
been constituted e and it was said that if there were any
.:lerects in the charters, the Crown could remedy them by
granting new charters ; but the Crown could not remedy
many of the defects in thtecharte.-s. He would read one line
from Sir F. Palgrave.le protest, to show that those who had
advanced that argument had not read it—" The Crown can
grant the conservancy of the peace spa corporation, but it can-
not grant the compendious powers of levying rates nod penal-
ties, and effecting the arrangements by which a town police
can alone be maintained and regulated." There were wilily
ether acts, which the Crown by its own powers could not de,
and which necessarily called for the intervention on this subject
of an Act of Parliament. Tile provisions of the Bill had beetle
stated by Sir Charles Wetherell with considerable clearness
and accuracy; he ( Lord Melbourne) should, therefore, do no
more than state the general provisions, and make a few obser-
vations upon them. Objections had been made by the Coun-
sel ; but be thought the principal provisions of the Bill met
those objections. The Noble Lord then recapitulated the
leading provisions of the Bill. With regard to the 'Cons.i-
tution and powers of the Town Council, the Noble Lord ex-
pressed his belief that it. was an arrangement which would be
found by their Lordships to be the best, the wisest, and most
prudent that could be devised. The Counsel at the Bar had
objected that there was no qualification ; he (Lord Melbourne)
would simply observe, that the idea of a qualification was
perfectly new in Corporate bodies. There existed no such
thing at present. It was then said that the Corpo-
rations were to be founded on annual electiohs.—( Hear.)
The answer was, all elections in Corporate bodies had
always been annual. It might be a wrong, or it might
be a wise system, but it was no novelty. It was then
said by the Learned Counsel that we were going to esta-
blish a system of Republics throughout the country. But
we found these Republics already established. If a town hav-
ing a right to settle its own municipal Government, to manage
its own local affairs, and regulate its own police, were, indeed,
a Republic, then this system of Republics had been already
established by the ancient constitution of this country. The
only alteration this Bill proposed to make was, that these Re-
publics should be popular instead of being oligarchical. They
were at present nothing but oligarchies, and accompanied by
all the evils and miseries that had in all places, and at all
times, flowed from that system of Government ; a system
which never promoted the welfare of those committed to its
charge, but which was always the object of hatred, odium,
and 'detestation—a system which generally terminated in tu-
mult, turmoil, rebellion, and blood. This was the alteration
we proposed to make. We were about to give the whole body
of the people some interest in the government of their towns,and
by that means to give them an interest in the preservation of pub-
lic peace, and the protection and good management of public
property. He should not discuss the clauses of the Bill—
though there was one respecting the granting of ale-house
licences—a subject which he knew their Lordships very much
delighted in—( Laughter)—but he would pass from that to
the clause (76) which gave the Town Council powers with
respect to the police. This he conceived to be one of the
most -important clauses of the Bill. Nobody could look—
without feeling considerable apprehension—at the deficient
and defective state of the police in the
.various great towns
of the kingdom. They all knew, from the experience of
the late few years, the benefit that had arisen from the in-
stitution of a well-settled police. Since the period of the
establishment of the London police, though they had
passed through times likely to produce disturbance of the
public peace, yet they had not been obliged to call out a single
soldier in quelling riot. This was a great recommendation,
especially when their Lordships recollected the period when,
on occasion of riots perfectly insignificant in their character,
those who opposed them threw the towns into great alarm, and
the destruction of property was hazarded by regiments of
cavalry being stationed on the inhabitants for several days.
All attempts to extend the system into the country had failed;
but when the town should have a Representative body which
would have the resolution to carry into effect measures neces-
sary for an effective police, it would remove that inefficiency
which had hitherto resulted from a general assembly of the
rate-payers, who never could be induced to tax themselves.
The Noble Lord denied that the creation of the Magistrates
on the nomination of the Town-Council, would be a limita-
tion of the prerogative of the Crown. This, however, had
been stated, as if the Crown had now the power to appoint
the Magistrates in the boroughs. The Crown had no such
power ; nor had it the slightest power to remove them for
misconduct. But this Bill would give the Crown that power
which it did not possess before ; it would confer a most
useful and advantageous prerogative, which might, and no
doubt would, be exercised in a most beneficial manner. He
thought this would be one of the most useful reformations
that the Bill would introduce. The Noble Lord then briefly
adverted to the appointment of Recorders and stipendiary
Magistrates, and thought 'their Lordships would rejoice a
any measure that gave facility to those objects. Upon a re-
view of these various provisions, lie conceived the adminis-
tration of justice in these Corporations to be efficiently se-
cured. He had thus stated the general grounds on which he
thought this Bill was necessary. He had chosen to confine
himself to these main features of the Bill. He trusted their
Lordships would give the House the opportunity of consider-
ing in Committee that Bill, whose general principles and pro-
visions he had stated, and he now confidently moved, that their
Lordships do go into Committee on the Bill.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of CAR NAR VON said it was because he was
anxious that the House should give this ]3ill a fair, cool, and
attentive consideration, and that the country might be im-
pressed with the sense of the justice of their Lordships, that
lie rose to move an amendment. The Noble Viscount had re-
ferred to the case of Bristol as an argument for having more
confidence in towns where there were no Corporations, than
in these who possessed them; but the Noble Viscount ought
to remember the period when those tumults happened. It
was during the period of passing the Reform Bill—(Opposi-
tion cheers)—when most exciting speeches were made, if not
by Ministers themselves, at least by those who supported
them. The people were then told they had rights which the
people were bound to insist upon, and that rights were enjoyed
by their superiors which ought to be resisted. It must be re-
membered that at that period the people concerned in those
tumults, foolishly imagined that they were following a course
which was not altogether displeasing to the Government of the
day. He did not for a moment mean to say that his Majesty's
Ministers were in any way connected with those parties ;
but still, that was the impression upon the general mind.
He was anxious that no misconstruction should take place with
respect to his vote. He was not opposed to a measure of cor-
porate refurm.—( Opposition cheers.) He was persuaded that
great abuses existed, and that they must be remedied ; and
that whatever Government might be called upwi to administer
the affairs of the country, some measure of corporate reform
must be introduced.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) In
moving this amendment he was not in the slightest degree
desirous to interpose between this Bill and the country ; al-
though he thought it was not right at this period of the session
to proceed with a measure of such magnitude, involving so
many complicated rights and requiring such dispassionate con-
sideration. There ought to be on such a measure a full at-
tendance of Peers ; but he put it to the House whether in the
month it was practicable to obtain that attendance. Private
business obliged Noble Lords to be absent. But after con-
ceding the principle of the Bill, and after counsel had been
heard on that principle so very recently, it appeared to him not
compatible with any notions of justice or consistency to say
that they would not hear evidence upon the Bill.—( Opposi-
tion cheers.) They were bound in justice to all those affected
by this Bill to disprove many many of the allegations made
against them. The Bill deals with their political rights, and
rights of property- which in many instances were as dear to
them as their titles and estates were to their Lordships. It
was upon these grounds, and from a conviction that if they
acted otherwise they would forget their high character for jus-
tice, and not for the purpose of creating the least delay, he
now moved, as an amendment :—" That evidence be taken at
the Bar of this House in support of the allegations of the
several petitions, praying to be heard against the Bill, before
the House be put into a-Committee of the whole House on the
said Bill."
Lord WINCHILSEA and Lord BROUGHAM rose to-
gether. The call for Lord Winchilsea was very loud; but
neither of the Noble Lords appeared inclined to give way.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH rose, amidst much con-
fusion, to a point of order. He appealed to their Lordships
in favour of the Noble Earl ( Winchilsea). The minutes on
their Lordships' table contained a notice given by that Noble.
Earl.—(Cries of " No, no," " Hear, hear.") He would
move that the clerk read the minutes.—( Gi-eat confusion.)
Lord BROUGHAM—You cannot interpose a motion, that
is quite clear.

Marcpds of WESIMEATH-1 have not done with
iny observations—

Lord BROUGHAM—It is quite immaterial whether the
Noble Lord has done or not. A person more ignorant of
order than the Noble Lord I never' heard. It is because I
am speaking to order that it does not signify One farthing
whether the Noble Lord has or has not done speaking. The
Noble and Learned Lord then said, it was the farthest thing
in the world from his mind to stand in the way of Lord
Wiuchilsca, provided he rose in pursuance of a motion, but
it was the first time he had ever heard of one motion inter-
vening while another motion was before the House.
The Earl of WINCHIL SEA said, he was not going to
make his motion; but to speak to the question before the
House.

Lord BROUGHAM then would assure the Noble Lord
that no man would more cheerfully give way to him than he ;
but he had been taken in by the Noble Marquis—( Laughter),
who said it was the Noble Earl's intention to bring in a dis-
tinct motion.
.After an ineffectual effort on the part of the Marquis of
\VESTA" E ATH again to address the House,
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A thanked the Noble and
Learned Lord for his courtesy, and then said that he should
not repeat the nuticc he had given, nor divide the House upon
it; but would leave it to the Noble Viscount himself to take
what course he thought proper. In the few observations which
he wished to make on that occasion, he begged to assure their
Lordships he should approach the question uninfluenced by
any interest of his own ; because there was not in the Bill one
sine-,le clause that could by any possibility affect any property
of 'his. He could also fairly and honestly state that he ap-
proached the question uninfluenced by any party feeling; be-
oause it so happened that he differed as much with respect to
it from many of his Noble Friends who sat on that side of
th 4 House as he did from any of the Noble Lords who sat
opposite. He was not unfriendly to municipal reform. He
did not deny that the altered circumstances of the country
might demand very considerable changes in existing institu-
tions. He did not deny the propriety of instituting an in-
quiry as to the expediency of extending those rights and pH
vileges at present confined to a comparative few in all corpo-
rate towns. He did not mean to deny that very considerable
abuses might in the course of time have crept into the admi•
nistration of corporate property. Put there ho took 1)5 stud,

--( Hear, bear.) II maintained that the Bill had come up
to them upon grounds S 3 unconstitutional as to render it im-
possible for their Lordships to entertnin it. He maintained
that the Commission upon whose Report the Bill was
founded was not legal, was not constitutional.—(Crios o;
" Hear, hear.") There he took his stand. And he would
fa;:dy and honestly
,say, that if every particle of the Re-
p-en met his full approbation, he would not proceed to correct
the abuses which it pointed out, feeling as he did, that the
Commission by whom it was made was not leneily or consti-
tutionally appointed.—( Hear, hear.) It shorn never be for-
gotten that they were legislating not for themselves, not for
their own times alone, but for posterity; He denied the
power of the Crown to issue Commissions to conduct in-
quiries noon questions affecting the rights ad privileges of the
steiject. Such Commission, if issued at all, could only be is-
sued by and with the consent of Parliament. He repeated,
then, that the Bill came before them grounded upon the Re-
fort of the Commissioners who had been unconititutionally
appointed. The Noble Viscount ( Melbourne) had called upon
their Lordi hips to look upon it as a general measure. But a
general measure it was not ;it was a partial measure—a Bill
ef pales and penalties, affecting all the boroughs mentioned in
the Report of the Commissioners, who were to be visited with
confiscation—for what ?—for late abuses. Abuses alleged
by whom ? By an authority unknown to the law and the con-
stitution. The preamble of the Bill ..alleged neglect and
abuse of the privileges conferred by charter to the corporate
towns of the kingdom. He did not mean to say that an
abuse, either of property or of privilege, might not al-
ways be a ground on which to institute inquiry ; but
he never would give his voice in that House in favour
of a judicial measure inflicting pains and penalties on his
fellow-countrymen, when he had not had before him a tittle
of evidence on i& such a measure could be justified.—
(Hear.) He implored their Lordships to consider for one
moment the situation in which the freemen of the country
would be placed in case the Bill then before them were to be
passed into a law; that point had been most powerfully put
by the Noble Earl who had preceded him, and it would, there-
fore, be superfluous and idle for him, with his humble talent,
to dwell for a single moment upon it. This much, how-
ever, he must say, that the property enjoyed by that class of'
individuals must be regarded as private property. The pro-
perty which they possessed was not the property of the coun-
try. It was a property originally granted to individuals for
services rendered in times of difficulty and danger.—( Hear,.
hear.) He was unwilling to trespass upon their Lordslt,,
time at greater length. He must, however, obser':e that he
was surprised to hear so little argument intlv!. speech of the
Noble Viscount (Melbourne). The Noble Viscount said that
in most of the municipal towns a certain political party pre-
vailed, in some Whig, in others Tory. Did the Noble Viscount
suppose that after that Bill passed all party spirit in those
towns would be abolished? The Noble Earl continued to
make some further observations, but in a tone of voice that
could not be heard. He concluded by stating that when the
proper opportunity arrived he should move, as an amendment,
that the Bill be negatived; though he should take care so to
trame his motion as not to pledge the House not to entertain
any measure founded upon constitutional grounds. The reso-
lution he should move was in these terms.--( Cries of " Not
now.") He believed he might read it then, although he was
aware he could not move it.—(" No, no," and " Read, read.")
After some delay the Noble Lord proceeded to read his Reso-
lution, which, as well as we could collect it, was in substance
as follows :—" That though the House was at all times pre-
pared to take into its consideration, and to give every support
to which it was entitled to any measure founded on constitu-
tional principles, having for its object the extension of political
rights and privileges, &c., yet it felt it its boumden duty to
withhold its consent to this measure on account of the uncon-
stitutional principles on which it was founded, and in the absence
of any evidence on which the destruction of the charities of 185
corporate towns could be justified." If he were correct in the
opinion he had formed, that this was a Bill of pains and penal-
ties, affecting the rights, privileges, and property of his fellow-
countrymen,-he put it to their Lordships whether they could
refuse their assent to his amendment.--( Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM had wished exceedingly to address
their Lordships immediately after the Noble Earl on the bench
opposite, not merely on account of the great importance of the
proposition then before them, and to which he regarded the
amendment of the Noble Earl as absolutely fatal, as neither
more nor less than positively destructive ; but he was also, he
confessed, for an infinitely less important reason, as regarded
all mankind, except himself, desirous this evening to present
himself to their Lordships. It was no light thing to be charged
with having been a party—and from the accidental circumstance
of his then situation the principal party to issuing an unconsti-
tutional commission—it was no light thing to be charged
with having fixed the Great Seal of this country to an illegal
commission ; for illegal and unconstitutional the commission of'
Municipal Inquiry had been denounced to be, bothby the Learned
Counsel who had been heard at their Lordships' bar, and by the
Noble Earl who had last spoken. He was therefore anxious, in
redemption of the pledge he had given to a Noble Duke (whom
he no longer saw in his place) on a former occasion, that he would
take the earliest oppartunity that he, the Noble Duke, or any
other man would afford him in that House, to demonstratt
the utter groundlessness of the charge. That was one Yeason
that he had for desiring to address their Lordships 'oefore the
debate proceeded further, and the desire that hb had previously
felt had not been lessened, but strengthened, in its force by
what had fallen from the Noble Earl, who grounded his main
objection to the Bill on the unconstitutional, and, as he thought,
illegal origin of the Commission on whose Report it was
grounded. But before he proceeded to that, he must first of
all address himself to the amendment which had been made
by the Noble Earl (Carnarvon) who spoke first ; for he was
infinitely more anxious for the success of the measure to which
the Noble Earl's amendment, if successful, would prove ut-
terly destructive—he was infinitely more anxious for that
than he was for the defence of the Commission; the latter, in-
deed, he looked upon as so clear, that he rather doubted whe-
ther he should be entering upon a superfluous errand, when he
undertook to prove its legality, as well as its consistency with
the sipirit and usage of the Constitution. He confessed he had
seldom been more astonished than at the proposition of the
Noble Earl. Astonished in the first place, because after what
passed on the first night, when counsel were proposed to be
heard—when it was distinctly stated on that (the Minis-
terial) side of the House by all who agreed to the pro-
position, that it was adopted on the footing of its tak-
ing two, or at most three days, to discuss the matter—
when it was known that had they been of opinion that it would
take more than such a period, there was no extremity of de-
bate or discussion in that House which they would not wil-
lingly have preferred to hearing one single counsel make one
single statement at the bar ; and when now having heard
counsel at no little length, for three long days ; after hearing
all that two of the most eminent and the most learned of them
could urge ; when, after all that, it was threatened to tender,
by way of evidence, that which he would presently show to
their Lordships amounted to absolutely nothing ; when, in.
stead of proceeding to discuss the principle of the Bill, as had
beer, agreed by compact, by compromise—( " No, no," and
cheers)—when, instead of taking that course which he main-
tained had Leen determined upon by special agreement, at the
time that the discussion of the principle was deferred upon the
second reading ; when, instead of taking that course, it was
proposed to hear more Counsel, and to call in witnesses, that
proposition coming, to make the thing more wonderful still,
from a Noble Earl, who prefaced his statement with an ad-
mission which; to use a legal phrase—and a legal phrase on an
occasion when the legality of a proceeding was questioned,
might not be deemed out of place--when the Noble Earl
then in legal phrase prefaced his speech with one admis-
sion which " showed him out of court," and again con-
cluded his speech by declaring that he desired not to in-
terpose one hour's delay between the House and the passing of
the Bill ; when he found a proposition for the future hearing
of counsel and the examination of witnesses come from a Noble
Lord who so expressed himself; and when he' remembered
the special agreement and compact into which the House
had entered when it was just determined that Counsel
should be called in, he confessed he could not adequately ex-
press the astonishment he felt at the course it was now pro-
posed to pursue. But the Noble Earl's admission at the out-
set of his speech was in fact utterly destructive of the propo-
sition •with which he concluded. The Noble Earl began by
stating that he candidly and, fairly admitted in the fullest ex-
tent the absolute necessity of Corporation Reform. All that
lie allowed—all that lie stated as a matter which no man
could doubt—and the greater part of all that was admitted
by the Noble Earl who moved the amendment was admitted
also by the Noble Earl ( Winchilsca) who spoke after him,
but he Wanted to have evidence to show that abuses existed—
that the constitution of the corporate bodies was bad—that
the evils which existed in the system were such as to produce
evils in practice—in short, admitting the existence of evils
and abuses, the Noble Earl, with admirable consistency, re-
quired that they should be proved. The Noble Earl ad-
mitted that the evil existed, and that a remedy was wanted;
yet, admitting these two facts, he required that proof should
be called to their Lordships' bar, and your Lordships' time
spent, or mis-spent rather, in hearing evidence upon points
upon which no one pretended to entertain a doubt. The
Noble Earl commenced by admitting that to hear evidence
was utterly useless and unnecessary—(No, no)—because he
admitted the very things to prove which evidence alone was
required.—( Oh, oh.) But he (Lord Brougham) found that
same of their Lordships were already assuming a judicial
character, and were even pronouncing a judicial decree
against him as he passed along. He heard some Noble
Lords pronouncing with authoritative mien and voice " No,
no, no !" therefore he must be pardoned if he presumed to
show, show, show--( Laughter and cheers)—that the evidence
which was about to be called to their Lordships' bar did not in
reality lead to the possibility of any one result, except the
spending of the valuable time of that House, and the frustra-
ting the just hopes and expectations of the country---( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Earl's motion was, that counsel should .be
called in for the purpose of examining evidence to prove the
statements which they (the counsel) made last week. What
were those statements ? He called upon any one who had
heard them to show him wherein those statements in the
slightest degree affected the principle of the Bill, namely)
that abuses existed—that those abuses required a remedy—
and that this Bill was the only species of remedy that could
appropriately be applied. The Noble Earl contended, that
if it were determined to hear counsel, it followed, as a matter
of course, that witnesses must be heard to support their state-
ments. It had been maintained that the course now proposed
to be pursued was utterly at variance with all precedent ; that
in every case where counsel were heard, witnesses were also
heard. In reply to that argument, ha would only entreat their
Lordships' attention to two cases—the measure for the aboli-
tion of hereditable jurisdictions in 1747, and the proposed mea-
sure for the abolition of negro slavery in 1807. In each of
those cases interests far more important were as deeply, and even
more deeply involved, than in the present instance • yet in each
of these cases what was the course pursoecl &tinsel were
called in and heard ism the principle ; but when they
proposed to support those statements by evidence, they were

rnmediately ordered .to withdraw, and in neither case was ft
i. gle witness heard. (The No'-,le and Leained Lord clued
lion this point at very considerable length, and in a mario-r
which elicited the constant &leers of the House, but the pr"
sure of the debato compels us to curtail his observations-)
"! he Noble and Learned Lord then proceeded to defend_ tho
I gality of the Commission. His Learned Friends (Sir C;
Wetherell and Mr. Knight) had referred to the words of:Lord
Coke, who said that " no Commission of novel inquiry Was
prohibited by statute." But any one who read that passage .0
Lord Coke, would seo at once that that learned and eminent
lawyer was speaking of a very different kind of Commission,
and of a very different kind of inquiry to any that had take'
place in this instance. Lord Coke meant not an inquiry in-
stituted for the mere purpose of information or curio:sal', but
an inquiry in the 'nature of an inqiiisition, in which the ..(join-
rnissioners were to inquire into and to determine something
judicially. As soon as the Commission of inquiry proceeded.
to confiscation or outlawry, then he would say that it assumed,.
an authority which did not belong to it. Another instance ot.
a Commission of pure inquiry was one instituted in the reign 01
Henry VII., to ascertain whether a son of the widow of Henry
V. was descended from Cadwallader, Prince of Wales. The
Learned Counsel who had been heard at their Lordships' Bar
had indulged in every license possible; they had commented
on Peers who were present, and Peers who were not present;
on men and measures of all descriptions ; on' the Bill which
was in the House, and on the Bill not in the House ; on the
English Municipal Corporation Bill, which it was their pro-
vince to discuss; and on the Irish Municipal Corporation
Bill, which it was not their province to discuss. He did not
complain of this : in the first place, because God forbid that
he should hamper any counsel in the execution of his duty.
and more especially at that bar : and still more especially is
a ease respecting which the opinions of men were so greatly
divided. Under such circumstances, he should have regretted
that they should have had a shadow of a shade of ground for
stating that they had not been allowed to go tee she utmost
extent of possible licence. Counsel so free so unfettered, he
never heard. No Noble Lord on either: side was disposed t°
take offence, however irregular,
ous, however reiterated the P:guments of the learned counsel.
His last reason for )7.-owever dull, however tedi-
had been allowed not complaining of the full liberty which
them was, that they had declared that
they felt th
That utmost possible respect fur their Lordships;
":"e TT spect he reciprocated with those learned persons; ana,
~e therefore could not help expressing his astonishment that
men of such high professional character did not perceive_
how groundless and inapplicable were the illustrations
which they applied to the forlorn hope of this most tlnte.
nable case. The Learned Counsel who spoke on Satuidal
had quoted Hallam and Fox in support of his argument'
against the commission. By the way a man learnt something,
every day; and he (Lord Brougham) had never before heard
that James IL, though a misguided was a most amiable Tan;
But the resemblances between the present commission
.ane
the commission to which Hallam and Fox alluded, were as dig.'
similar as those of which Horace spoke in the Ars Poetics;
Undoubtedly there were two words, " commission " and
" regulate," which were common to them all. 6. There is
river in Macedon, look you ; and there is a river in Wales.
But the commissions of James 11. were to confiscate at once,
without coming to Parliament; the commission on which
the present Bill was founded was merely to inquire. Thedu"
ference was so striking that it was astonishing their resew-
blance should have been insisted on. Mr. Fox asked,. why
send to judges, why not go to Parliament ? Sir Charles
Wetherell asked, why not send to judges ? and eschewed
Parliament. The gravamen of the charge of the former Wa"
that resort was not had to Parliament; the gravamen of the
charge of the latter was that resort was had to Parliament.
He (Lord Brougham) was prepared to show their Lordships
that all practice and all principle were in consonance with the
course which had been pursued on the present occasion. An°,
first for the principle. It was contended by the Learned
Counsel that the Crown had not power to authorise the meat'
hers of such a Commission to receive evidence on oath.
the Crown had power to authorise persons to administer oaths
judicially : which was a much stronger case. No one would:
deny that the Crown had the power of appointing a common
law court, in which the judge, the jury, and the witnessq
were all sworn. It would be a strange anomaly indeed it
the Crown, possessing the larger, did not possess
the smaller,
power. Now, with respect to the practice, it had occurred
in a multitude of 'cases since the revolution ; in no fevrel;
than 57 since 1715. He would mention only a few, of
them. There was the Chancery Commission. The odes'
of the mayor, aldermen, and burgesses of a borough were
primarily public ; although to those offices incidentallY,
remotely, contingently, private emolument occasionally be;
longed. But was not private emolument connected wit"
the offices inquired into under Lord Eldon's Commission ,
Had they not been frequently told that the judicial sinecures
which were the subjects of that Commission were privateyr°-
perty, and that to trench upon them was to trench upon tre,e:
holds? Now, however, it seemed that Commissioners might
attack judi"..:.al sinecures with impunity ; . bat that they must
not inn& the hallowed precincts of the rights of _the None?
Of a Corporation. The Irish Ecclesiastical Commission, in
1830, directed an inquiry to be made whether the salaries or-
dered by law to be paid by the rectors of parishes to then'
curates were actually paid. How jacobinical ! To call till,
every clergyman of a parish to declare whether or not he pa!"
his curate the sum prescribed by law ! There was nothing
the present Commission which could by any perversity 0!
reasoning be shown to be at all like that. But it had been
asked, was ever Sovereign so ill treated that the Lord Chan"
cellor should affix the Great Seal to a Commission,' the pow
era of which every little attorney in the country might defy •
It had been said with emphasis, that those who had issued the
• Commission did not dare to go into the Court of King's
Bench and indict persons who refused to obey it. In the
first place, it was not desirable to take -political matters int°
the Court of King's Bench, more especially if all that Was
wanted was got without. Why, because out of numeroul
cases there were seven or eight of refusal, should they take
such a step merely to avoid being told in solemn and sonorous
tones that they did not dare do so? For his-part he would
rather have his ears pierced with this vehement "dare," than go to the Court of King's Bench uselessly.--( Hear, hear.)
What if out of the two thousand Irish parsons who had been
subjected to the inquiry of the Ecclesiastical Commissieq,
fifty had refused, leaving nineteen hundred and fifty free an-
swerers, so that the object of the Commission was not oh'
structed? He knew the Noble Duke who had issued that
Commission, and the Noble and Learned Lord who had
af-
fixed the Great Seal to it, too well to suppose that they won't'
have dared to go to the Court of King's Bench on such a foal"
errand as to indict those parsons who had refused to answer.
In all such cases, doubts existed as to the power of the Crovea,
to enforce its authority. He had known many refusals ; bo
never knew one of these brought into the Court of King's
Bench. With respect to the Commission, it might he that
among the twenty mombers of it, one or two might possibly,
not have acted with perfect prudence and propriety. But ti
the Commission had never issued, the Bills tinder their Lord-
ships' consideration would stand on their own merits.
ing, therefore, every tittle of what the Learned Connie'
had said against the Commission would not be to alley
any thing against the measure. It was said by the Learned
Counsel that two •of the Commissioners had gone to Ply!
mouth, and pronounced a panegyric upon the Plymoutlk
Corporation, as a perfect specimen of a municipal body; and
yet that it appeared that they had sold a presentation to a
living, and neglected to repair the church, for the purpose °',
building a theatre and an hotel. Now that Corporation
was eledted by the freemen ; which it was the object of the
present Bill hendeforth to prevent. It turned out, however,
that the whole of the Corporation property of Plymouth was
in the hands of four hundred and odd freemen, the great
bulk cf whom were non-residents. A great sensation had
been produced by reading a passage from the report, in
which it was stated that an alderman of East Retford had
been found collaring in a culprit who had been brought be-
fore him, and rolling with him on the floor, which wag
denied. Now he had seen a copy of the actual deposition
before the Commissioners as it appeared in a provincial news-
paper, in which it was stated that Mr. Thomas Rigsby, a
respectable solicitor and partner to the late town-clerk, bad
sworn that he was present when a person, charged with some
offence, was brought before Mr. Alderman Swaney, that ite,
(Mr. Rigsby) happened to go out for a few moments, and
that on his return he found that the alderman had collared the
culprit, and that they were rolling on the floor together-
This, certainly, was not perfectly decorous. The wenn?"
stance might, or might not, be true--but it had been sworn
to; and he tad mentioned it to exculpate the Commissioner
(Mr. Rushton) from the imputation of having listened t° •
mere gossip. In another part of the Report, it was stated
that a Noble Duke, having given an office in his gift to a
worthy and respectable man, he had always afterwards voted
for the Duke. That was no charge against the Duke; it was
a charge against the voter.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE observe(' that it was his
grandfather who was alluded to. •
Lord BROUGHAM said that it was a matter of perfect
indifference whether the ease was true or not. He came nosy
to speak of some of the members of the Commission. Two 0f
them (Mr. Blackburne and Sir P. Palgrave) were Cents",
Commissioners.—[[lere the Noble and Learned Lord coot' plained of the loud conversation which was going on below tho
bar. He was persuaded that the heat there must be very great;
and he hoped the persons there assembled would be please'
to take his advice, and retire for a little fresh air.] Of the
two Commissioners whom he had named, one protested against
the Report; the other signed it. Of the remaining sixteen et
seventeen one, certainly not the least able, had entered a Pro:
test against the Report in the most decided and vehenee.°'
language. This Gentleman's friends—those who knew
best—could not, and did not, he was informed, believe that he
was serious in most of the observation's contained in his Re-
port. That Mr. Hogg should have, with the sentiments
which he (Lord Brougham) knew him to entertain,,put his
name to such a document, really filled him with astonishment'
He could only account for it by a reference to the tempera-
ment of Me. Hogg ; for he had known him many years on
the northern circuit, and a more witty and humorous perseal was nowhere to be found ; and he could not look on his ge"'
port but in the light of a string of jokes. In one part Of his
Report he thus expressed himself :.--" As one of his Majesty's
Commissioners, I can certify, without hesitation, and for rea-
sons which shall hereafter appear, that county magistrates are
more satisfactory than borough magistrates," Why, gracio°
God ! nothing was more universally known ; the fact was, s
commonly understood, that when any act of irregularity was
committed, in the administration of justice, it was said to be
done by a "chartered justice." In another part he said, " Re-
form must extend to every root, summit, or extremity; pene-
trating and invigorating every part ; Complete, yet temper
and judicious." He (Lord Brougham) desired no greateA
concession; if the reform of the Corporations at.e.:.
and invigorated every part " of them,
for it must be a thorough reform of them.—( Hear, henp
it was all be. wentee;
The only question was—ls this measure a thorough reforrie,?.
did require witnesses or evidence to be gnat/led to answer thas