The Sun.
London, England, 1859-04-19 00:00:00

Turin. Ho has had an interview with the Secretary of
State already, and I augur from it beneficial effects. The
Sardinian Minister is a man of enlightened and temperate
opinions, and I cannot but believe that under his guidance
Sardinia will take the course which, in my opinion, will be
the one most conducive, not only to her advantage but to
her reputation. (Hear, hear.) I cannot believe that in the
present circumstances of the case there is any Power in
Europe which would wantonly provoke a war. There is a
Power which may not be present at this Congress when it
takes place, but which is greater than emperors and con-
gresses, and that is the power of public opinion. (Hear,
hear.) I do not believe that in this day that is a power
which can be wantonly outraged. (Cheers.) Sir, I should
think it a gross outrage of public opinion if, under
the circumstances in which we now find ourselves with re-
spect to the Italian question, no solution should be found
but that of the sword. (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, it
appears to me that the elements of a settlement are in exis-
tence, and, although I know it is disheartening in conduct-
ing negotiations to find that you do not rapidly arrive at
the result you desire, still, on the whole, I cannot but trace
in all that has occurred a predominant wish that the solu-
tion should be one of peace. (Hear, hear.) Ido not wish
to conceal from this house and the country that the issue is
no mean one. A war in Italy is not a war in a corner. An
Italian war may be, and probably will be, an European
war. (Hear, hear.) The waters of the Adriatic cannot be
disturbed without agitating the waters of the Rhine. The
port of Trieste is not merely an Italian port; it is a port
which belongs to the Germanic Confederation, and anattack
on the port of Trieste is not an attack on Austria merely,
but on Germany. (Hear, hear.) If, then, a war spread
beyond the precincts of Italy, England is interested, not only
from those enlightened principles of civilisation which make
her look with an adverse eye on any attempt to disturb the
peace of the world, but England may be interested from
material considerations of the most urgent and momentous
character. (Hear, hear.) Sir, under these circumstances,
I am sure the house will treat with all the temperateness
that is desirable the question that is brought before them
at this moment. I have placed before them without reserve
a statement of the position of these negotiations, and, Sir,
I will express more than my hope—l will express still my
belief, that with firmness and conciliation the peace of the
world may be maintained. (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Mr. Speaker, I trust that in the
few observations I may feel it my duty to make on the
statement which the right hon. gentleman has just addressed
to the house, or on the matters to which it relates, nothing
shall fall from my lips which shall tend in any degree to add
to the difficulties which her Majesty's Government and the
other Powers concerned may have in the settlement of the
negotiations to which the statement of the right hon. gen-
tleman refers. Sir, I am sure everybody will agree that her
Majesty's Government acted from a perfect sense of duty,
and from a regard for the general interests of
Europe, in undertaking that informal mediation
between France and Austria to which the mis-
sion of Lord Cowley to Vienna related. I might, per-
haps, think, if something more of a formal and official cha-
racter had been given to that endeavour, and if her
Majesty's Government had obtained from the French
Government and the Government of Austria some formal
acceptance of the good offices of Great Britain and Prussia—
if she would have joined Great Britain with the view to an
arrangement with the different States—that perhaps that
course of negotiation would not have been interrupted by
any other proceeding, and might have tended to a successful
issue. I don't blame Russia for having interposed
her proposal of a Congress. It was natural enough that,
with the best intentions, a great Power like Russia should
desire in the settlement of a great European transaction to
take an adequate part. She could have had no part in
a mediation if conducted singly by Great Britain. She
necessarily forms part of the Congress, and therefore the
moment the mode of proceeding by Congress was adopted
Russia naturally stepped in, and has her proper part in the
negotiations which this Congress is about to superintend.
Now, I think, undoubtedlyit is natural that Austria should
have wished that the negotiations should be either preceded
or accompanied by a general disarmament. It was quite
unreasonable, however, in Austria to make the proposal she
has made—namely, that Sardinia should disarm, and that
she should not—(hear)—because, according to that note we
saw published the other day from Count Buol to Lord
Augustus Loftus, the proposal was that Sardinia should
disarm, and that the only engagement Austria was to
enter into in return was, that pending negotiations she
would not attack Sardinia unless Sardinia did something—l
forget what—in violation of her duties towards Austria.
The result of that would have been, if the negotiations had
been broken off, which might have been done by Austria
herself, that Sardinia, still further weakened by disarma-
ment, would have been left entirely at the mercy of Austria.
(Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Government were therefore
perfectly right in objecting to that condition, and Austria
was quite right in waiving so unreasonable a proposition. I
am glad to hear that both France and Austria have agreed
to the principle of disarmament, because, when these two
great Powers admit that principle, it seems to me that we are
not too sanguine in hoping that the negotiations following
upon that must eventually tend towards a continuance .of
the peace of Europe. (Hear, hear.) But I must say
it appears to me that going into a long discussion on the
question of disarmament, instead of going at once into the
Congress to consider the real question at issue, is somewhat
of a waste of time. (Hear, hear.) If the Powers are really
willing to adopt those four propositions which the right
hon. gentleman has stated to the house, the main and prin-
cipal one of which is the evacuation of foreign troops from
Central Italy, and implying, I presume, an engagement
that those troops should not at any future time return—
(hear, hear, and a laugh)—why should the Congress not
meet at once and settle that point, for that point not set-
tled everything else would be nugatory with the view to
the establishment of diplomatic negotiations? The expres-
sion of a general disarmament is one of the general meaning
of which is in itself excessively vague. (Hear, hear.) If
you tell me you are going to disarm a single man or a regi-
ment I understand what you mean ; but when we are told
that France, Austria, and Sardinia are to disarm, we ought
to know to what that operation refers. It must mean the
assimilation of the number of their troops to that at which
it stood at some previous period, and that the troops are to
return to the positions they held at that previous period ;
but in that case you must have an inspection of returns by
a commission and an inspection of positions ; you must
have operations performed which must require a long space
of time. It is not a thing that can be done in a week or a
month ; and until it is done to the satisfaction of all parties
—if this is to be a preliminary part of the negotiations—
your negotiations will be indefinitely postponed, and in the
meantime all the existing apprehensions and jealousies will
be still permitted to operate. Now, why should the Con-
gress not meet at once, and why should they not agree that
there should be a disarmament operating in the course of
time, and then proceed to discuss the real question on which
the peace of Europe turns? (Hear, hear.) lam not going
to suggest the details; but no man who has looked at the
state of the Continent can shut his eyes to the fact that it
is the disturbed, restless, and uneasy condition of the Ita-
lian States which endangers the peace of Europe—(hear)—
and that that restless and uneasy condition results from
bad government on the south of the Po. (Hear, hear.) To
this is to be added the confidence on which the rulers of
the different States in that part of Italy rest, that, in the
event of any disturbance on the part of their sub-
jects against their oppression and tyranny, Austrian troops
will come to their aid and quell the disturbance. Well
then, I say, let France and Austria agree immediately to
withdraw the troops that now occupy Central Italy, and let
them come to a formal and public engagement that, under
no circumstances, and at no future time shall they re-occupy
those places—(hear)—and then Congress may go into the
questions connected with the amelioration of Italy in ge-
neral. But lam inclined to believe that this single agree-
ment when it was once made publicly known would lay the
foundation of a progressive improvement in every State
scuth of the Po. (Hear, hear.) It cannot be supposed
that the people of Italy are in that disturbed and excited
condition in which they were found in the year 1848. Tire
minds of men are more reasonable now than they were
then, and there is a much better understanding among the
theo
systemsm ean s byea
n whichh e n
obtained.
in nativesthei r o f ltalyadministrative
hear.) There is also much less impatience and much less
disposition to acts of violence than there was in 1848, and I
am of opinion that if the Governments and natives were
once firmly convinced that they would be left to themselves
as
t
to settle their reciprocal differences, there would be laid the
sure and certain foundation of a progressive improvement
throughout the Italian peninsula. (Cheers.) I can easily
suppose that a Congress, if it goes into the question of what
specific reforms are desirable for Rome, what for Tuscany,
what for Parma, and what for Modena—changes which
differ in degree in those States—will be undertaking a task
which it would not be in the power of the wisest men, not
knowing those countries, to perform. (Hear.) Therefore,
I am not urging any particular steps in regard to these
matters, except the general encouragement and exhortation
which would be felt if this, as one of the conditions preli-
minary to the Congress, should be proposed to these Go-
vernments. (Hear.) Now it seems to me that the present
difficulty arises from the indisposition on the part of Sardi-
nia to consent to the principle of disarmament unless she is
admitted as a member of the Congress. With regard to that
it might be said that, considering that the army of Sardinia
is necessarily much smaller and weaker than that of Aus-
tria, the latter Power cannot seriously entertain any alarm
of actual invasion on the part of Sardinia. If, how-
ever, that probability were seriously contemplated, the
Powers of England and France would require, and would
doubtless obtain from Sardinia such assurances as would set
the mind of the Austrian Government at ease from any ap-
prehension of danger of that kind. And I should not have
I supposed, and it would be hard to suppose, that if Austria
retired from the Sardinian frontier, and if Austria meant
to reduce her establishments, any sensible Government of
Sardinia would continue to impose upon the people of that
country the serious burdens entailed upon them by the pre-
sent extent of their armaments. Therefore, I must take it
for granted that the principle of disarmament having been
admitted, and Congress having met to discuss the Italian
question, Sardinia would follow the example of France and
Austria, and would cease to place herself in a position that
would excite any apprehension. With regard to the appli-
cation made by Sardinia to be a member of the Congress, I
cannot express any opinion of my own. This is a question
which rests upon the responsibility of the Government to
determine, but I will just state one or two points which
have occurred to my own mind. No doubt, it may be
said on the one hand, as it has been judiciously said by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that Sardinia has not
hitherto been considered ono of the leading Powers of
Europe, and the proposition of Russia being that the five
great Powers which have hitherto taken a part in European
questions should meet in Congress, that proposition does
not in its terms include Sardinia. But the example quoted
by the right hon. gentleman has in some degree an analogy
of a different kind. Sardinia was a member of the:Congrese
of Paris. And why ? Because Sardinia had been one
of the belligerents. She had taken part in the war against
Russia, and Sardinia could not therefore re .establish her

relations with Russia except by a treaty of peace, and if
that treaty were to be negotiated it was but fair and just
that Sardinia, who was expected to sign it, should also have
a voice in the negotiation of that treaty. But Sardiria
may be said at present to occupy a somewhat analogous
position to that which she occupied at the Congress
of Paris: (Hear, hear.) There has been no war in this

case, and Sardinia is not therefore ;-belligerent,
these questions and this Congress arise out of the apprehen-
sions of the different States, in consequence of the armies
which have been maintained and put in a threatening posi-
tion, and from the-apprehensions of conflict arising there-
from. Sardinia is one of the parties from whom these appre-
hensions exist, and Sardinia is also one of the parties called
upon to disarm. (Hear, hear.) Sardinia might tlaerefpre say,
" If you call upon me to disarm in 'common with France
and Austria, and if that question is to be discussed in the

Congress, I ought to be allowed to be present there as well
as France and Austria." (Cheers.) Ido not see, under thesa
circumstances, any serious danger on the part of the five
Powers if Sardinia were permitted to consider that question
on the specific ground that what she is called on to do she
will have to do in common with France and Austria, and
that it is therefore fair she should be present at a discussion
upon this question of disarmament. (Hear, hear.) If, on
the other hand, it should be found that there are invincible
objections to Sardinia being admitted as a member of the
Congress, I think you ought not to impose upon her an im-
mediate disarmament, which ought to apply only to those
who are to be members of the Congress. (Hear, hear.) One
of these two courses you ought to adopt—either admit Sar-
dinia to the Congress, and require her to be a party to the
general disarmament, or say that as she is not a member of
the Congress you trust to her good sense to follow the ex-
ample of France and Austria to disarm. With regard to the
general subject I think that the statement of the right hon.
gentleman gives us well-founded hopes that the peace of
Europe will not be disturbed. (Cheers.) It is impossible to
see any ground on which war could now legitimately take
place. (Cheers.) I apprehend there is no pretence for the
violation of existing treaties by the infraction of the Aus-
trian possessions in Northern Italy. I believe that the state-
ment of the right hon. gentleman of the position of Austria,
as established in 1815, is perfectly correct. At that time
people acted as they mostly do—they thought of the last
danger that had threatened to overwhelm them, and that
last danger was the preponderating power of France, and her
wide and expanding possessions. The arrangements. made
with regard to the north of Italy were made agamst that dan-
ger, and I presume that men at that time did not so much
consider what effect those arrangements might have upon
the general welfare of the States of Italy. However, that
which was done was done by treaty, and that treaty is the
charter by which Europe holds its present distribution of ter-
teritory. (Hear.) There can beonthe part of no one a desire to
violate that treaty. These arrangements in Central Italy
were arrangemenes made between France and Austria, and
these two Powers are too much enlightened, and too desirous
to promote peace, not willingly to agree to them ; and if that
be done, any legitimate cause of war seems entirely to disap-
pear. There may be, and there are occasions when war is
necessary, and when war is necessary it becomes just. But
to enter upon war without a strong necessity is an act of
injustice, which, reversing the well-known saying of the old
diplomatist, is " not only a fault, but a crime." And I trust
that no Government will be so blind to the duties they owe
t) themselves, to their subjects in Europe, and to mankind,
as to enter now upon a war for which there is not only no
necessity, but no legitimate or plausible pretext. (Cheers.)
The house has received, and I have received, with satisfac-
tion, the general outline given by the right hon. gentleman
of the present state of the negotiations ; and I will only fer-
vently hope that the efforts of those Powers who are endea-
vouring to smooth down these difficulties and maintain the
peace of Europe will be crowned with that success which
such endeavours most justly deserve. (Cheers.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that twe months ago the state
of Italy was brought under the consideration of the house,
and they were then told that France and Austria were about
to evacuate Rome. The noble lord (J. Russell) congratu-
lated the house and the country on the probability of this
event. The house, however, was gagged en that occasion,
and now things were coming to a crisis. It was quite time
they should come to a crisis, for the state of Italy was a
disgrace to continental Europe. He wanted to know what
hope there was for Italy from the speech of the right hon.
gentleman. They were told that there was to be a Congress.
Sardinia claimed a place in that Congress, and why did she
claim it ? The right hon. gentleman had not told them those
reasons, and he said that if that house, speaking on the part
of the people of England, did not say that Sardinia was
entitled to a place in the Congress it would disappoint the
people of this country. (Hear, hear.) In a letter to the
British Government, Count Cavour not long ago gave rea-
sons for wishing that Sardinia should be represented in the
Congress :
" But the Cabinet of Turin believes at the same time that
Piedmont ought to be represented at this Congress, and it is
persuaded that its intervention would be useful, not to say
indispensable, if the Powers which show a proved sympa-
thy for Italy, and those which desire to obviate the danger
of the abnormal state of the Peninsula, think that they can
render prevalent a system more conformable to justice by
obtaining concessions and guarantees of a nature to calm
the public mind. Sardinia enjoys the confidence of the un-
happy populations whose fate is about to be decided."
(Hear, hear.) " Sardinia enjoys the confidence of the un-
happy populations whose fate is about to be decided," and
yet the five great Powers, in the exercise of a tyrannical
act, said that Sardinia should not apjear to plead the cause
of Italy before the Congress. (Hear. The British Govern-
ment, he said, would disgrace itsel unless it insisted on
Sardinia having a seat, and Sardinia was quite right not to
disarm unless she had a-seat in the Congress For the five
great Powers to make her disarm and not give her a seat
would be the greatest act of oppression and tyranny which
had ever been committed. (Hear.) He did not know what
view the noble lord the member for the City took of it, but
the view which he had stated was certainly consistent with
former expressions of the noble lord. (Hear.) The state of
Italy was a disgrace to civilised Europe. He believed that
nothing short of the independence and unity of Italy would
before long satisfy Italy. (Hear.) Austria was the curse of
Italy. She had been so for a long time ; and it was be-
lieved that the British Government were playing into the
hands of Austria. They must get rid of Austria altogether
from Italy before they could secure the peace of Italy. They
might stave it off by this Congress; they might exclude
Sardinia ; but they would never promote peace and happi-
ness in Italy so long as Austria dare set foot in Italy.
(Hear.) England could do much. She need not go to war.
She need only use her moral influence, and say to Austria
" The manner in which you have governed and do govern
the Italian people is a disgrace to you. Give them a con-
stitution if it is your determinationto remain, but it is much
better for you to withdraw altogether and leave the Italian
people to settle their own differences." (Hear.) He believed
it would be wise to give that advice, but if the Government
went on in the half-and-half way they were doing war was
inevitable, and that would be the consequence of the policy
which the Government was pursuing. (Hear.) He did not
think that the noble lord the member for Tiverton had
spoken out in the manner which the people of this country
would expect he should on this occasion. He hoped to hear
the noble lord the member for the city of London say some-
thing on this subject. (Hear.) He had not intended to rise
at the moment when he did, but he shoUld have been sorry
to see the discussion close without raising his voice and ex-
pressing his opinion in favour of a much more liberal policy
than her Majesty's Government seemed inclined to pursue
towards the unhappy people of Italy. (Cheers.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said—l cannot help expressing my
regret that the hon. gentleman the member for Finsbury,
as I am afraid the event will prove, should have widened
the field of this discussion. (Cheers.) He has complained
of the remarks made by the noble 'viscount the member for
Tiverton, but, so far as it appears to me, the great merit of
those remarks lies in the sedulous avoidance of whatever
could tend to irrelevint, and in the strict adherence to the
immediate, matter in debate. (Cheers.) I am sure the hon.
member for Finsbury (whose goodwill towards the suffering
people of Italy cannot be doubted) can hardly be of opinion
that he contributes to a satisfactory solution of the existing
difficulties, by urging in this house upon the Government
that no remedy can be effectual short of the expulsion of
Austria from Italy and a great alteration in the treaties of
1815)--hear, hear)—and going one step further and com-
plaining that the • policy of her Majesty's Government is
not adapted to promote the general interests of Europe or
the maintenance of peace, (Hear.) With respect to the
policy of her Majesty's Government, it is certainly the very
last thing I should think it wise to do—to assume that that
policy has taken a wrong direction until I am aware that
such is the case. (Cheers.) I should think I was injuring
the very cause I might desire to serve by complaining and
adopting a tone of accusation. (Hear.) But Ido venture
to make one remark on the expressions which fell from the
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I
know well that he speaks, as all speak on a question of
this kind, under difficulty, and feeling the necessity of
self-restraint. But there were two observations which the
right hon. gentleman made, with regard to which I am
unwilling to put a construction which I confess they ap-
pear to bear. He must be aware that even very light words
used by him on an occasion of this kind will be rigidly con-
strued, and construed by the respective parties in the sense
which they severally wish to affix to them. In one portion
of his speech the right hon. gentleman stated that the con-
duct of Austria throughout these complications had been
marked, if I heard aright, by a tone and /spirit of dignified
conciliation. In another part of his speech the right hon.
gentleman stated that the conduct of Sardinia presented
many things which were embarrassing, perplexing, and
ambiguous. I must say that if we are to infer the temper
of the two Governments from the rigid construction of those
expressions, and putting on them, perhaps, a stronger sense-
than they themselves wear, we may be inclined to come to
one of two conclusions—either that there is unknown much
meritorious conduct on the part of Austria, and much ques-
tionable conduct on the part of Sardinia, or else that the
spirit of her Majesty's Government is not one of entire par-
tiality. (Hear.) Ido not adopt that conclusion, and there-
fore I am sure my right hon. friend will excuse my calling
his attention to what seems to me the natural bearing of
what he uttered. lam bound to say, so far as the facts of
the case are known to the public, I can see nothing to
justify the drawing such a distinction. (Hear.) The
Chancellor of the Exchequer has given us an instance of
the conduct of the Cabinet of Vienna, which, if it is a spe-
cimen of that conduct, hardly appears to me to justify the
description of dignified conciliation, because he says it was
the proposal of the Cabinet of Vienna that, while the great
Powers of Europe met in Congress, in which Congress Sar-
dinia was not to have a place, France and England were to
insist that Sardinia, and Sardinia alone, as a condition
anterior to the meeting of that Congress, should proceed to
disarm. (Cheers.) I can only say that I see no dignified
conciliation in making such a proposition, and I must fur-
ther say, that the withdrawing such a proposition was merely
a concession to the obvious demands of decency, propriety,
and necessity. (Cheers.) On the other hand,with regard to
the conduct of Sardinia, it is not easy to find in the state-
ment of the right hon. gentleman any support for the some-
what accusatory expression which he has used, because he has
told us nothing excepting that Sardinia has demanded either
a place in the Congress, or else to be exempted from the con-
dition of disarming. As respects the question of a place in
the Congress for Sardinia, I fully grant that it is a ques-
tion surrounded with the gravest and most serious difficul-
ties. She has much to urge, as has been said by my noble
friend opposite (Lord Palmerston), for the purpose of show-
ing why she should be admitted there ; but, on the other
hand, one cannot deny that if the Congress is to occupy
itself, as seems likely to be the cave, with the internal affairs
.
of the other States of Italy, you would draw a distinction
unfavourable and inequitable as respects them if you ore
to grant to Sardinia a place which they arenaonty objection
entitled to
take. (Hear.) I frankly own that I do not see
to the alternative proposed by the noble viscount. Granted
that the difficulties to conceding a
a placear in the Congress to
Sardinia be too great. But if Sardinia is otc
n to have a place
to all on her to
in the Congress, then why is it
disarm ? (Hear.) It is not altogether a question of abstract
right. It is not merely a question whether you will enforce
this disarming on Sardinia. The questions are these :
Will there be any danger to the peace of Europe if Sardinia
does not disarm before the Congress arise from
it to be
supposed that any danger to that peace can arise rom her
sole and unsupported action ? That is a question which
appears to me scarcely to require an answer. It is not to
be supposed that any man entrusted with the responsibityi
of governing a country--even a despotic country and espe-1
country—it is not to be supposed that any
cially a free • •of Ministerof the King man
holding the position
would for one moment, while the Powers of Europe were on
the eve of being called together to determine the great con-
ditions of the Italian question, wish or would dare to
attempt any measure that could possibly interfere with the
continuance of peace. (Hear.) Is it prudent, then, to pro-
long these discussions about disarming, and is not the pro-
longation and continuance of the present state of thinks in
itself attended not only with immense cost, not only with
great evils and with great uncertainty in the mind of