The Sun.
London, England, 1832-04-10 00:00:00

(PRIcE 7-1) )

•ioners that he did not read them over, but he had every
,nfidenco that they were such as ought to be received.

Lord ELDON made an observation, but in so low a
tone as to be inaudible. _ . _

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that no doubt the
Noble and Learned Earl had a to require
those who presented petitions to read them through,
and having done all be could to save the time of the House,
he would withdraw the petitions, that he might read
theni over between this and to-morrow evening,
for the purpose of being able to say precisely what
they were. It was the first time that be had
ever heard, in either House of Parliament, th-
imposed—(Cries of " No, no")—of
over every word of every petition that was
stinted to Parliament.—(Hear.) He was anxi
have presented them to-night, because he thought
sible that their Lordships might come to a division,
it was not very likely, before they adjourned.
Lord ELDON said he could assure the Noble an,
Learned Lord the rule of the House was, that every Mem-
ber of the House presenting petitions should read them
through. Instances had occurred in which petitions
had been withdrawn from subsequent readings of
them, in consequence of their not having been respect-
fully and properly wort:led, and because the Noble
Lord presenting them had not read them through.
Though, however, anxious to have the rule of
the House adhered to, yet he was very desirous
of saving the Noble a..d Learned Lord unnecessary
trouble ; and therefore if the Noble and Learned Lord
would permit hint, he would take the petitions home with
him and read the whole of them over by to-morrow.
The LORD CHANCELLOR could not think of im-
pozing such trouble on his Noble and Learned Friend. No
doubt those who presented petitions undertook to say
thoy believed the petitions to be respectably and properly
worded. He believed the whole of the petitions he had
ever presented to be so ; he could not say from his own
knowledge that these were, hut he would take them home
with him, assuring the House that he would be enabled
by to-inoi row morning to say whether they were or not.
He knew that scores and scores of petitions had been pre-
sented to both Houses without having been read all over.

OPPOSITION REFORM BILL.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM.—My Lords,
I hare to present a petition from --- against
the Bill of Reform which hat been sent up to

tias Lordships' House from the Commons.
he whole of this petition is framed in language
sensililg;-that I am greatly tempted to read it to
dui L'ordships, hut shall con tent myself with these
few words :—" The petitioners do not presume to
suggest what plan of representation would be safe,
nor are they opposed to any which the altered
situation of the country may require, but hope that
none will be attempted which can tend to impair the
safety of our existing institutions." In moving that
this petition be laid upon the table I will take the op-
tei
House,
soef frinvni gb
being
n gli oit,iic ea
ntnoi
syy osut
art
e %,as b Lordships.here
hby4ha;olemn and impressive tone in which
the Duke sptlke, still as death.) My Lords, con-
tinued..tht Noble Duke, I rise to give your Lord-
ships notice, that it is my intention, in case it shall
please your Lordships, as I sincerely hope and
trust, and believe that it will be, to negative
the second reading of the Bill for Reforming
the representation of the people in the Commons
House of Parliament—it is my intention, I say,
in case - that should be the result of your
Lordships' deliberation, to bring in a Bill
immediately after the Easter recess to give
the right of sending two members each to Par-
liament to large towns therein to be specified, which,
from their commercial and trading situation, may ap-
pear to be entitled to be represented in Parlia-
ment, and which are not now represented, and
also to consolidate certain of the boroughs,

now sending Members to Parliament, so as to make
room, without altering the numbers of the
present House of Commons, for the Members
proposed to be added as representatives of large
towns as aforesaid ; and also to extend the right
of voting in all boroughs to be represented in
such a manner as, without depriving any person of
a franchise who now possesses one, ray pre-
vent any individual from unduly influencing the
election of Members of Parliament within the said
borough. This is the notice I give, and that I may
prove my sincerity to your Lordships, I request that
it may be entered upon your Lordships' journals.
The House remained in perfect silence dining the whole
of this announcement, and only one or two faint cheers tell
from the Duke of CUMBERLAND, and some other Peers of
the Opposition. Lord GREY smiled, and the LORD CHAN-
cellor almost laughed outright, particularly when the
Noble Duke spoke of the prevention of undue influence
being exercised in elections.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from
the town of Kingston-upon-Hull, against the Reform
Bill. The petitioners began by stating that they highly
approved of the course which their Lordships
had followed in the vote they had given last session
on the Bill then introduced by his Majesty's Ministers.
They stated also their full confidence in their Lord-
ships, that a similar decision would be given to that
measure now under the consideration of the House,
and hoped that, while some Reform was necessary, in any
Bill which should hereafter be introduced, due respect
might be paid to the integrity of the institutions of the
country, the only safeguard of the empire.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA was anxious to give the
Learned and Noble Lord opposite, and another Noble
Lord at the head of the department in Ireland, an op-
portunity of vindicating themselves front the charges
which were made against them, respecting the case of
Captain Graham, and he hoped that an early day would
be appointed for that purpose.
The Earl of WICKLOW s lid that in bringing the
subject forward, he felt great satisfaction in think-
ing the Noble Lord at the head of the Irish Go-
vernment, would in a few days be, in all probability, in his
place, and therefore he would give notice that, on Mon-
day next, he would bring the subject under their Lordships'
consideration.
Lord PLUNKET was anxious to give every oppor-
tunity of furnishing every explanation of his conduct in
having exercised that most painful part of his duty—
the not continuing an individual in the situ ition of
of a magistrate ; but lie begged leave to state that his cha-
racter was not at all involved in it.
Lord KING presented a petition from the parish of
Clerkenwell, praying the House to reconsider their vote
of last session, and to pass the present Reform Big.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from
Dalkeith, in favour of the Reform Bill.
Lord DURHAM presented a petition from the Politi-
cal Union of Greenwich and Deptford, in favour of the
Reform Bill.
Lord GREY said the petition could not be received as
that of the Political Union of Greenwich and Deptford,
zits that was a body not recognised by the House. It could,
therefore, only be received as the petition of the indivi-
duals who had signed it.
Lord DURHAM said it should be received as the petition
of the individual members of that body, whose rights as
members of society the Bill would materially improve.—
(G neral cries of "Read.") The petition was teen read.
It set forth that a petition to the same purport had been
presented to the House of Commons in 1793, by Mr.
Charles Grey. In consequence of that petition not being
attended to, and the corrupt state of the representation being
persevered in, the capital, trade and manufactures of the
country had been crippled, wages reduced, and labourers
thrown out of employ. The labouring poor bad been driven
to great distress, and the whole of the people of the United
Kingdom reduced to one mass of discontent and angry feel-
ing, which could only be removed by the present Bill being
passed into a law. The petitioners begged to call the
attention of the House to the peril in which it would
place itself, if they again rejected the united wish
of the monarch and the people. They trusted
their Lordships would not withhold from the people
those rights which a long series of political changes
rendered necessary. The petitioners prayed that the
House of Lords would pass the whole Bill ; for if not, they
would produce a frightful disorganization and revolution
throughout the country.
Lord DURHAM moved that the petition do lie on
lie table.
The Marquess of CLEVELAND said, that there was

t one word in that petition which he did not think
erfectly proper, and in which he did not agree.
A cry of " Divide" on the question of receiving the
etition was raised on the Opposition benches, awl was .43' JJ
7.71
net with laughter from the Ministerial side of the House.:;
THE REFORM BILL.
Earl GREY rose an I spoke as follows :—My Lords,
.everal petitions have been presented to-night, in favour
,f, and adverse to, the Reform Bill. It is now my duty to
propose to your Lordships the second reading of the Bill,
ellich the other House have sent up, for a Reform in the
representation of the people. To a Bill of this important
n aure, a Bill relating to so many great interests, and
.vhich has been passed by the Commons of England by a
great and decisive majority, and supported by an equal
'majority by the people at large, it cannot be necessary for
.ne to say that to such a Bill your Lordships are bound
•() payiathe most serious attention. My Lords,
the subject to which this Bill relates is of the greatest im-
portance. It is a Bill to effect a change in the constitution
of Parliament by altering the mode by which Members are
returned to represent the people. It comes before
you enpported by a great majority of that House,
and I repeat it, by an equally great and decisive
majority of the people.—( Hear.) I feel that in proposing
to your Lordships the consideration of this measure, 1
'aken on -- If a duty to which I can bring
its to its importance.—(Hear,
owever, that I have on this occasion a
in, which, I trust, will enable me to
In the first pace, I do not think it
to your Lordships that this Bill
assent is called by public opinion.
ery to chow that the principle of
this Bill is one entitled to your Lordships' adoption,
because even by those most adverse to Reform, the
necessity of some Reform has been at length acknow-
ledged.—(Cheers.) Even this night we have had two
petitions presented to your Lordships; the one purporting
to be directly against the Bill, the other thanking your
Loraehips fur your conduct with reference to the
'act Bill ; but both most distinctly stating the opinions
of the Petitioners, that some Reform in the reprerenta,-
tion was at length requisite. In confirmation of this
opinion, the Noble Duke who presented the first petition
aas given a notice to yonr Lordehipe, of his intention to
propose a Bill, which is to be founded on the principle
hitherto pronounced, not the principle of Reform, but of
revolution.—(Cheers.) On the principle of enfranchise,
ment, disfranchisement, and an extension of the repre-
sentation.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM rose amidst the greatest
disapprobation of the House. His Grace said it would
save the time of the House if he now stated that the Noble
End was misrepresenting what he had said. He (his
Grace) had been particularly guarded against using any
words that could be construed into a question of disfrattchiete-
ment. His object was to take the franchise front nobody,
Earl GREY—My Lords, it would be premature in me
to enter into any discussion, but even faun the explana-
tion of the embryo Bill given by the Noble Duke, I do
not take the description I gave of it to be incor-
rect. If I recollect what the Noble Duke said,
it was that be meant to give the franchise, that is to say,
the right ef electing and returning Members, to certain
great, opulent, and important towns. That, my
Lords, is what I call enfranchisement. Next I un-
derstood the Noble Duke to say, that in older to
make way for these new members, without altering
the number of representation in the Commons,
he certainly meant to consolidate and unite cer-
tain boroughs which now separately possess the right to
return Members to Parliament. If the Nobie Duke
took from boroughs, each possessing a right tc
return Members, that right, and gave them only
a portion of the right, by a general sort of subscription,
that, my Lords, I ray, is certainly disfranchisement.—
(Loud cheers.) As to the third proposition. I do
not think that the Noble Duke has disputed it. He
stated, and doses not retract what he said, that he mean!:
to extend the: right of voting. He, therefore, means to
present to your: Lordships a Bill, and I b-g your
Lordships to mark this distinctly-.—a Bill founded, 1
repeat, and I repeat it not without attention to
his Grace's interruption and most unsatisfactory ex-
planation—a Bill, indeed, founded on oisfranclaisee
went, enfranchisement, and extension of franchise.—
(Loud cheers.) The Noble Duke, therefore, has clearly
the design of presenting a Bill, founded on show three great
principles, and those alone which the Noble Duke and his
friends had often told their Lordships were not the prin-
ciples of Reform, but of revolution. My Lords, then I say
I am relieved from the necessity of asserting any thing
in order to recommend to your Lordships the adoption
of the principles of this Bill. The principle of the
Bill is enfranchisement, and here I think I might
stop and beg your Lordships to give your sanction
to a measure the principle of which is now acknow-
ledged by those who are moat opposed to it. My
Lords, 1 am therefore relieved from the necessity of
taking up much of your Lordships' time in discussing
those admissions. The soundness of the principle is ge-
nerally, and all but universally, conceded, and even the
embryo Bill of the Noble Duke is not an exception.—
(Hear, hear.) Nor am I quite sure there is any exception,
for although the Noble Duke (Wellington) stated on a late
occasion that he retained all his opinions on the subject of
stated
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in putting an interdict on the minds and voices of the
united mass of the nation, calling aloud for a Reform in
the state of the representation, and the n storation of their
constitutional rights.—(Hear, hear, hear, from the Mi-
nisterial side.) The principle, then, being admitted, the
necessity and expediency are also conceded. That neces-
sity and expediency arises from the general and declared
sense of the public, that the most glaring abuses prevail in
the present system, and that a Reform must take place.
That such is the public feeling is admitted by all tho.e
who wish to qualify or excuse their opposition to the pre-
sent Bill, for they rest their conviction that some conces-
sion ought to be made upon the general and almost univer-
sal impression on the minds of the great mans of the na-
tion, that Reform is necessary ; and, on that ground, they,
at last, allow that the consideration of some measure of
Reform ought no longer to be excluded from Parliament.
—(Hear, hear.) I am, therefore, now relieved from the
necessity of entering upon any lengthened discussion on
these points. Even if this bad not been the case, I should
have been, in a great measure, relieved from now entering
upon a general discussion of the views and motives of those
who have proposed this measure, by the discussions which
have annady taken place on the subject. For it is impos-
sible for me now to add one argument to those which
have already been repeatedly employed by myself, and which
have been much more ablyenforced by others. In proceed-
ing, my Lords, with my task, I find that diminished by
those admissions which release me from the necessity of
expatiating on the general principles of the Bill. I shall,
therefore assume, my Lords, that the principles of this Bill are
in a great degree admitted, and I shall proceed to examine,
and state as shortly as I can, the nature of this Bill. The
Bill, then, my Lords, to which I now desire the
assent of your Lordships to the second reading, is founded
upon the same principles, being of the same nature
and containing similar provisions to that which
was introduced to you the last session.—(Hear, hear.)
My Lords, I certainly understand what that acclamation
means, and I think I shall be able te show clearly to
your Lordships that there is nothing in the statement of
this Bill being founded on the same principles, and possessing
the same features and provisions as the Bill of last year,
that ought to induce your Lordship to withhold your
assent from this Bill. I say, my Lords, it is similar, and
founded upon the sime principles.—(Hear, hear.)
I have heard nothing, my Lords, but a general
descriptions of the Bill proposed by the Noble Duke, but
from what I have learned I must say thot it will be
founded on the same principles as this Biil
hear.) Those principles, my Lords, are disfranchisement
of decayed boroughs, enfranchisement o: great and populous
towns, and a considerable extension of the right ef voting.
Upon the same principles, and with the alterations that
have been stated, this measure is to be again recommended
to your Lordships—a Bill with this disfranchisement, en-
franchisement, and the extension of the right of voting—
( Hear, hear. )—and this is what the Noble Duke
called not Reform but revolution. It is enfranchise-
ment—it is disfranchisement—it is an extension of the
right of voting, therefore it is not Reform but revo-
lution.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") By what
process of reasoning the Noble Duke arrived at this
conclusion, or to what is his notion of Reform, as contradis-
tinguished to revolution, I kaow not, but I certainly can-
not conceive that the adoption of these princinciples does
of itself entitle the measure which is founded upon them
hwchhan the
is not revolutionary. _(Hear, bear, hear.) This change is
to the character of being revolutionary.—(Hear, hear.)
My Lords, a Reform in Parliament undoubtedly sup-
pests a great change in the constitution of Parliament—
hat is, in the practical constitution of Parliament as it
now exists --(Hear, hear.) A Reform of Parliament
pnecessarily
e rs cut/I°6cent eda cihnant hgee
to be Gent! by the acknowledged eutilorities. and
lie acknowledged principles of the Constitution :it
re to be effected by in Act of Patliatnent paeseel
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