The Sun.
London, England, 1866-06-02 00:00:00

RAILWAY CLAUSES BILL.

Mr. lIORSFALL asked the President of the Board o:
Trade if he would state what were his intentions with re-
gard to clause 61, aff,:cting terminal charges, which stil:
appeared in the amended Railways Clauses Bill ?
Mr. GIBSON said he intended to move the omission of
the clause.

T PIE ADJOURNED DEBATE—FENIAN
CONSPIRAeir
Sir G. GREY appealed to hon..
members having notices
On the paper to postpone them, in order to allow the ad-
journed debate to proceed.
Mr. WHALLEY said he could not consent to
short as
his motion, but he woud make his statement
proceeded,
postpone
possible. The honourable member then ast
amidst the evident disinclination of
move for a select committee to inquire and rep:urste'a to
the origin, object, and extent of the Fenian conspiracy
et('
now or lately existing in Ireland, and especially whether
it was in any and what degree connected with any form
of religious belief. The hon. member proceeded to address
the house amidst much interruption for nearly an hour,

when
Sir P. BURRELL moved that the house be counted.
Immediately there was a rush to the door by two-thirds
of the members present, when
(The SPEAKER appealed to the hon. gentleman (Mr.
Whalley) to have a little consideration for the house, and
that he would shorten his observations.]
be:I2IWIIA.LLEY, after this intimation, said he had only
eetuated by a strong sense of duty in bringing for-
ward the matter.
The motion Was then by leave withdrawn.
THE SirILCAIRNs REFORM BILL.
and proceeded to what was the principle of the bill ?
he
said,
haual
biez it by the light of the only answer
which,
ration of the Attorney_Gegive4 to the question—the decla-
that it was founded on the
old methods and landmanrkersalo
xuencing with the grouping of the Constitution. Com-
he argued that, while
the grouping un: epresented towenraset!
Constitution for the
rented boroughs, was known to tl(:ogetherl cn. with rere
purpose of ecuring borough representation the
71 he added
eauld be nisi_
repreflanted boroulghiq wag entirely now 'grouping
Ind identity
that it was disfranehPenient in reality, and
onF. in its results. To destroy the political life
cr a constituent;, was virtually to disfranchise
exposing the results cf the measure ho showed' that4l in
would treble and quadruple the expense of an election. In
all these old boroughs there was a traditional scale of ex_
penditure which would not be diminished when the borough
was grouped ; on the contrary, the borough which had the
lowest scale in the group would be apt to swell it up to
the level of the highest. Dealing with the datails of the
Scheme, he complained that in many cases the boroughs
grouped were antagonistic in their interests ; that geogra-
phical convenience, so much insisted on by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, was neglected; that many unrepresented
towns were passed over; and, without attributing to the
Government a desire to act unfairly, he showed in an ela-
borate argument that their scheme would have that effect.
There were 79 seats disturbed, of which la were held by op-
ponents of the Goren/nett, but if the lineOtteen carried

". p to 10,000, 18 more seats would be disturbed, of which 14
Nev. held by their supporters, and while eight boroughs
'were to be left with only one member each, there were
nine boroughs in the groups of the same popu:ation left
with two members. In the same way, taking 18 boroughs
between 6,000 and 9,000 population he divided them
tinto t
et hd r
—e et
hg re omueprsc, y ands ho
ws hno wt
oe d e ha
cohw
v.
ad irffyeirnegn t
al ye
ctohredyf
ng wereto
the number of Liberals returned. Passing to the disposal
to
of
enfranchisement,the
and tohnadte tenm n
d the seatsonly were
principle
dimi-
nishing the number of constituencies and accumulating
members on single constituencies, contending that the re-
presentation of minorities was secured by having a number
of varied constituencies, and pointing out that the bill
would add 25 to the seven already existing unicorn con-
stituencies. As to the proposal to give seven members to
Scotland, without depreciating the claims of that country
to increased representation, he insisted that the question
to be answered was why England should be mulcted of
of applied
seven? Had she fallen off in wealth and population since
1832, he asked, and on this point and the question of uni-
corn constituencies ho argued that the Reform Bill was
not framed on any particular principle, the members ob-
tained by the disfranchisement of decayed and nomination
constituencies being only thus disposed of of ter all the
places which were worthy of it had been enfranchised. He
complained next of the absence of any provision on the
question of boundarjes, showing its importance by some
striking statistics as to Ithe present large infusion of the
urban element in the county constituencies, and main-
taining that the reduction of the county franchise would
virtually destroy the boundaries between town and county
constituencies which now existed, and would entirely de-
stroy the rural character of many of the county constitu-
encies. The machinery of the bill for the extension of
borough boundaries would not work—for it was not
likely that people living outside would bring themselves
under the borough rate—and if it did work, it would be
at the expense of perpetual local controversy, and
would be liable to the still greater objection
that it would place the indefinite extension of
the suffrage in the hands of the Executive. He
denied that the municipal franchise was a proper
test for the Parliamentary suffrage, and, after some
further criticis.a of the machinery of the bill, he asserted
that the defects which ho had indicated could not be re-.
medied in committee, which was the place, not for con-
struction, but for amending a bill on the outlines of which
there was a general agreement. It was the right of the
house and of the country that a bill should be submitted
complete and well matured, and at such a period that it
could be fully considered ; and after the manner in which
the Government had acted it would have been a miracle if
they had succeeded in producing such a bill. Ho warned
the house that it could not commit a greater mistake than
to pass a hasty measure for the sake of doing something,
and in dilating on the inconveniences of such a course he
pointed out with great force, that as the bill could not come
into operation until after June, 1867, the house next session
would have virtually ceased to represent the country ; tha.
its authority on such questions as taxation would be dis-
puted ; and that the members for the domed boroughs
would be condemned not merely to "political polygamy,"
as Mr. Lowe had said, but to a twelvemonth's political
courtship in the face of a rival. As to settling the
question which the Attorney-General had dwelt so
strongly, he asked him how, after his declaration in favour
of household suffrage, this bill could settle the subject on
his views; and, referring to the charge of hypocrisy made
[ against the Opposition, he concluded by an eloquent warn-
ing to the ot'aer side not to refuse from party motives to
sanction a resolution every word of which they must
allow to be just and true.

Mr. ACLAND defended the course taken by the Govern-
ment, and, admitting that the Liberal party alone could
not carry the bill, appealed to the independent Conserva-
tives to assist in arranging a compromise, the chief terms
of which were understood to be the £7 franchise and the
inclusion in the small boroughs of rural suburbs.
Mr. B. COCHRXNE, adverting to the epithet "honest"
so often applied to the bill, repeated what he had heard
from Mr. White, that not 50 members would support it if
votes were given by ballot. Ho denounced it as an ad-
vance towards democracy, and, by way of warning to the
house; read some extracts from the very tyrannical rules
of a great Trade Union.
Mr. C. MARTIN claimed fox his constituents at New-
port the credit of being ready to sacrifice themselves for
the benefit of the country—a piec.,e of patriotism which
was immediately repudiated with great decision by Mr.
KENNARD, the other member for Newport.
The discussion was continued—a score or more members
springing to their legs in different parts of the house as
each speaker sat down—by Mr. Leatham, who supported
the bill ; by Colonel C. H. Lindsay, who maintained that
extension of borough boundaries, grouping of unrepre-
sented boroughs, and the prevention of bribery and cor-
ruption ought to be the chief items of a Reform Bill, and
criticised the arrangement proposed for grouping his
borough, Abingdon ; by Mr. A. Peel, who strongly ap-
proved the principle of grouping; by Sir E. Lechmere,
who explained the injustice inflicted on his borough
(Tewkesbury) by the bill; by Mr. llolclen, who professed
his willingness to assist at his own political extinction for
the public good; and by Major Jervis, who complained of
the grouping of Harwich with Malden, and, though a
friend of the working classes, denied that the bill was
honestly intended for their advantage.
The LORD-ADVOCATE, after remarking on the tri-
vial issues on which it was sought to dispose of this great
question, proceeded to reply to Sir II Cairns' arguments
seriatim. It was plain, he said, that the small boroughs
could not remain as they were, and he defended the sys-
tem of grouping by the example of Scotland, affirming that
groups were first formed there at the time of the Union to
restrict the number of representatives. In the same way,
by reference to the example of the Scotch groups, ho de-
fended the geographical convenience of the scheme, main-
taining that a system of: traditionary bribery never could
flourish in 'groups ; and to the argument as to drawing the
line at 8,000, he replied that in previous Reform Bills it
had been drawn lower, and that the higher it was drawn
the more Liberal seats it would disturb. Mr. Disraeli's
plan of eliminating the urban element from rural con-
stituencies was contrary to the theory of the Constitution;
and with regard to the third member, he denied that the
proposal would lead to electoral expenses, that it would
lead to contests, or diminish the safeguards for the repre-
sentation of minorities. Passing to the Franchise Bill, he
defended the £7 suffrage as a moderate extension, main-
taining that household suffrage which had been proposed
by Lord Grey in 1797, and warmly defended by Mr. Fox,
was the old constitutional test, and that the House of
Commons was the embodiment of democracy.
Lord J. MANNERS moved the adjournment of the
debate.
Lord ELCHO—Before the motion is agreed to I wish to
ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the event
of the amendment of the hon. member for Wells being re-
jected, it is the intention of the Government to proceed
with the bill now before the house, and to endeavour with
their whole power to carry it through Parliament during
the present session. I ask this on behalf of gentlemen who
at a great sacrifice, but in obedience to a sense of public I
duty, have felt themselves obliged to oppose the proceed-
ings of the Government with reference to the question of
Reform. They have no desire to place the Government in
any difficulty that can be avoided, and it is quite evident
that if the Government does not intend to persevere with
the measure no useful purpose will be served by forcing
those gentlemen to divide against elem. (Cheers.) It is
currently reported and generally believed in the House
that the Government intend to withdraw or not proceed
with the bill provided they have a majority is the division.
If this be the case it ought to be announced at once—(Op-
position cheers)—in justice to persons who, although
obliged to oppose the Government on this question, are
still members of the same party. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It appears
to me that, if my noble friend had found himself under an
obligation to put a question of an unusual character upon
the motion to adjourn the debate, he certainly would have
done well to have conveyed to the Government his inten-
tion of putting that question. (Hear.) It is not, however,
simply on the ground of his having failed to give the
nothing of salnegshwtesit intimation of his intention that I shall found the
give. I know nothing whatever (.f the rumours
and of the belief to which tho noble lord refers.
What are the means and souarceseknfofol confess I am ex-
tremely sceptical as to the existence whinsoitnhfionrgmaotfiothnohsee
knows better than I do ; bat
rumours, and nothing of that
belief,
I lirthe e one orn thebleo r
cur-
rency
of the other, and I am whollyeeof
incapable of affording
any satisfaction—(oh)—to the curiosity
of the
to
in regard to the question he has put. h
declaring the intentions of the Governmentpwri' per time fo
the motion of the hon. and gallant member for Wells
willo
be when I have the honour of addressing the house in the
course of the debate, and I must request my noble friend
to have the goodness to wait till that time comes—(oh, oh)
—in order to obtain such information as, in the exercise of
the best judgment we can form with respect to the per_
'heers.
formance of our duty and the public interests, it may then
be iu our power to give. (G )
The motion for the adjournment of the debate was then
agreed to.
land) Bills were each read a third ti I
The Lunacy Acts (Scotland) and theme falnledbelLciiendd.
Marx s (Scot-
The Indian Prize Money and the iage(Sydnionton)
Bills passed through committee.
The Lords' amendments to the Contagious Diseases Bill
were agreed to.
The following members were nominated to form the
select committee on RAH wayCompanies' Securities Bill and
Railwayli Debentures, &c. Registry Bill :—Mr. 31. Gibson,
e
ner'e,Talbot, Sir F. Goldsmid, Sir J. Fergusson, Mr. T.
'"KeY, Mr. Scourfield, Mr. Leeman, Mr. Ayrton, and Mr.
G o 1
YhO
The use adjourned at 20 minutes past 12 o'clock.
_
Cot

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