The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-08 00:00:00

Noble Lord opposite (Russell) what he considered to be a
surplus? Did he consider it a surplus after the clergy
were paid at a rate the Legislature chose to lay down, or did
he adhere to the line laid down at the time the Noble
Lord, the Member for Lancashire,_ formed part of the
late Government, at which period Earl Grey stated that
after the payment of the clergy, there was to be a
portion set apart for the augmentation of small livings,
the building of 'churches, and the payment of church cess,
which the Noble Earl stated would take 160,0001. a year ?
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Did the Noble Lord intend
there should be a surplus, which he ( Sir H. Hardinge) de-
nied, that small livings should be augmented to the extent
of forty-six thousand pound a year—or what course did he
mean to take? There had been a report printed within
the last few days by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners,
which stated that applications had been made for
loans to build churches, but such was the state of the funds
that they could not possibly accede to the applications.—
The Committee were called upon to expend upwards
of 70,0001. a year, while their receipts exceeded very
little more than 30,0001. The Commission, therefore, instead
of having a surplus had a deficiency.- Everything like
an improvement in the Church, had therefore been at a stand
still since the passing of the Church Temporalities Bill.
With respect to the resolution of the Noble Lord opposite, he
felt that it would place the Government in such a situation,
that it would be impossible to pass any Tithe Bill with such a
resolution attached to it, and that it would be equally impossible
to govern Ireland on such principles. He would, therefore,
be no party to such a measure, and it would be impossible for
them, holding the opinions they did—(Hear)—to carry on
the Government with such measures.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—In answer to the observations of
the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the non-existence of a sur-
plus, he would say that there were many parishes in which
there were but very small flocks, or none at all, and that he
would transfer the income from those parishes to others which
need an increase of spiritual aid, and to the general wants of

education.
Mr. BARING said, that they were called upon to proceed
upon the supposition of the existence of a surplus, although, if
they waited but a short time for the report, of the Commis-
sion, they would be enabled to judge with certainty whether it
really did exist or not. If the Noble Lord were not treating
the House and the country with bad faith, if he brought for-
ward the present question not for any party purpose, and not
with the view of placing his antagonists in a position of diffi-
culty, but from a sincere and honest wish to afford some real
and substantial means of tranquillizing Ireland—he must say,
that the obvious and reasonable course would be to ascertain
what surplus existed. He would ask the House in what man-
ner it was possible to act upon the plan proposed by the Noble
Lord? Was the Tithe Bill, into which he wished to intro-
duce his clause, to contain provisions respecting every parish
in Ireland in which he might wash to diminish the Church Es-
tablishment ? The Noble Lord had not given the House a
glimpse of the principle on which he would proceed with the
practical execution of his plan, as to what was the precise line
which he would draw between parishes from which the Pro-
testant pastor was to be withdrawn, and those in which he
was to be retained ? Was the possession of 50, or 100, or
150, or 200 Protestants, to be the number which was to
determine that point ? When the whole interest and peace
of Ireland was concerned, it was an indecorous mode of
proceeding to pass a resolution such as this to be introduced'
into a Bill not yet before the House, especially when it was
known that in a few weeks the information necessary to ena-
ble them to act with more certainty would he laid before
them. Supposing, however, that the Noble Lord was cor-
rect in the facts which he had assumed, how could he word
the clauses by which he proposed to carry his principle into
execution ? He was to provide, not only for the circum-
stances under which the Protestant pastor was to be with-
drawn from a parish, but also for those under which he was
to be restored to it. How was the House to legislate on such
principles ? Almost every Hon. Gentleman who had spoken
on the opposite side had taken different views on this subject.
Some Hon. Gentlemen had expressed an opinion broadly, that
the whole Protestant Church of Ireland ought to be destroyed.
--(Ministerial cheers.) His Right Hon. Friend the Member
for Stafford (Mr. Littleton) had seemed to say that the Pro-
testant establishment was a nuisance to that country.—( An
expression of dissent from Mr. Littleton.) He (Mr. Baring)
had understood him to say so, and to express an opinion
that the sooner it were got rid of the better. Another
Hon. Member for Halifax, (Mr. C. Weed) would not withdraw
a pastor from any parish in which there remained a single Pro-
testant. There were thus two distinct opinions amongst Hon.
Gentlemen opposite—one, that the Protestant Establishment
ought to be wholly destroyed; and the other, that only
the sinecure portion of it ought to be done away with. The
Noble Lord talked of his measure being one for the final paci-
fication of Ireland. He (Mr. Baring) wished any Hon. Gen-
tleman to consider whether it was possible for the wit of man
to conceive a measure more conducive to the maintenance of
perpetual feud and warfare, than proceeding upon the princi-
ple that a decrease in the proportion of the Protestant popu-
lation was the signal for the destruction of the Church in that

country ? The removal of the Church Establishment in a
parish where there were no Protestants, and all were Catho-
lics, could not be necessary to establish harmony, because in
such a parish there would be no collision and feud. Where
there was a parish with 500 Protestants to 5,000 Catholics,
there would begin the real dissension. What would be the
consequence of establishing the principle that the existence of
the Protestant Church in any district should depend upon
such a proportion of its population being Protestants? What
would be the state of constant feud and warfare existing in
every community where the number of Protestants just ex-
ceeded the proportion ? Suppose it should appear by the
census—which every one would be watching with the greatest
eagerness, that such was the case, and the Catholic could
find that if he could only get five or ten more out of the district
—(hear, hear)—if he could succeed in worrying a few of
the remaining Protestants out of the parish, what would be
consequences ? He would maintain that the roost cunning
man ever born never could devise a system more calculated to
promote warfare, strife, and discord in Ireland, than that
which the Noble Lord proposed to them. The Hon. Member
for Weymouth says indeed—when you have worried out your
remaining Protestants, if you can only get them back again
the Church will be re-established. But could it be possible in
such a case for the Protestants to rear their heads again? If
it were the intention of the House that the question of appro-
priation should be dealt with, surely the fairest and most just
course would be to introduce a distinct and substantive measure
with reference to that subject, and not emtarrass his Majesty's
Ministers in passing a Bill which had been brought forward
merely for the purpose of commuting tithes and regulating
their collection.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. H. GRATTAN said that it had been declared by the
Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite ( Sir H. Har-
dinge), that if the present resolution were passed, he should
find it impossible to carry on the Government of Ireland. No
doubt it would, under such circumstances, be no longer pos-
sible to carry on a Government on the principle of Orange
ascendancy.
Sir H. HARDINGE was understood to say, that he did
not intend that his words should convey any such meaning as
that which had been put upon them by the Hon. Member.
When he had said that if this resolution were passed it would
be impossible for him to continue to carry on the Government
of Ireland, he never meant either to declare that the Govern-
ment of Ireland had been conducted upon the principle of
Orange ascendancy, to which the Hon. Member (Mr. Grattan)
had alluded, or to assert that if the Noble Lord's motion re-
ceived the sanction of the House, he could no longer act upon
such a principle in the Government of Ireland.
Mr. H. GRATTAN—The Right Hon. and Gallant Gentle.
man had certainly announced that if the motion of the Noble
Lord passed it would be impossible for him to continue the
present Government of Ireland on Protestant principles. Pro-
testant principles, however, in his (Mr. Grattan's) opinion,
meant nothing more or less than ascendancy principles.—
(Hear.) To this conclusion the people of Ireland and the
Members of that House had come, by looking not at the words
but the acts of the present Government, as well as by consi-
dering (according to the advice of the Right Hon. Baronet
the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the political opinions and
characters of the men who formed the Administration.—
( Hear.) He must be permitted to tell the Government that
they were not such friends to the Church of Ireland as they
would fain have it believed. The ministers of the Church in
Ireland must starve unless, some measure were introduced
which differed from that brought forward by the Right Hon.
and Gallant Gentleman ( Sir H. Hardinge,) by embodying the
principle of appropriation.—(Hear, hear.) He asked the
Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman whether, if his Tithe Bill
were now passed by the House, he could carry it into execution
in Ireland?
Sir H. HARDINGE—Yes.

Mr. H. GRATTAN contended that it would be utterly
impossible, under the existing state of things in that country,
even to attempt to carry the Tithe Bill of the Right Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman into operation, without calling in military
aid.--(Hear.) He maintained that those on his side of the
House were the true friends of the Church, who were anxious,
by removing, at once and completely, all the abuses by which
it was encumbered, to render it more secure and efficient.
( Hear.) Those who were opposed to his Majesty's Ministers,
in reality stood up for the interest and permanency of the
Established Church in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was
utterly impossible that that Church could exist in its present
shape, when it required 31,400 men to collect its revenues.
—( Hear, hear.) He was most anxious to pass over all the re-
crimination and personal allusions which had been used in
the course of the debate ; but he felt compelled to advert to
the phrase of " vile religion," which had been applied to
that which the Roman Catholics professed. He would say
that no man had a right to use such language : no man
dared to utter it in private ; it disgraced the senate to whom
it was addressed, and the religion in whose defence it was
urged.—(Hear, hear, hear !" and loud cries of " Name,
name !") He had a note of the words to which he al-
luded, which, if they pleased, he would bring down and
read-to the House. The difference between the present posi-
tion of affairs, and that in which Parliament was placed last
session, was, that the Legislature reposed confidence in the
former Government with respect to the question of appropria-
tion, but they had no reliance whatever on the intentions of the
Members of the present Government as to that most impor-
tant question. He found by the returns of 1821 and 1825,
that the Church of Ireland had in its possession lands to the
extent of 1,200,000 acres, and lands and money amounting in
value to 1,250,000/. Of this income, no portion was set ex-
clusively apart for the purpose of promoting the religious edu-
cation of the people. It was not in the nature of things that a
4.7,;*- Church, which reckons amongst its members only about
I—.l 750,000 out of a population of 8,000,000, could draw such re-
venues from the people without exciting jealousy, discontent,
and
dissatisfaction. How different was the state of religious
.\'''.\-' establishments in other countries of Europe ! If they looked
- icFrance, for instance, they would find that out of twenty-
-lilve millions of francs devoted to the support of the Church,