The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-28 00:00:00

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PRICE 7D.

that a line of road from Bristol should end near the river
Thames, by means of which the produce and commodities
sent up to town could be easily distributed to all parts of
the metropolis, instead of sending them, as proposed in this
Bill, to a depot at a considerable distance from the river.
There was to be a dock at the terminus of the Southampton
railroad, by which goods from Bristol or elsewhere could
easily be shipped and sent to their destinations. The diffe-
rence in the charges_ for passengers arid goods on the two
lines of road, was so small as to be of little importance, and
it was not worth while detaining the House on that point. It
was said by the advocates forthis Bill, that the Great Western
Railway passed near a large number of towns in the vicinity
of London, and went through much more populous districts
than the Basing line of road did. It certainly was more
desirable that the inhabitants of those places iirould esjoy
the advantages of a railway, if they were really anxious to
possess them ; but it appeared that most of these places were.
unwilling to have the railway near them. A great number of
most • respectable persons residing in the neighbourhood of
Hanvrell, close to which it was proposed the railway should
pass, entertained the strongest objections to it, and had
constantly opposed it. Again, he thought it objectionable,
as it was cutting up the country near London more than
was necessary, as there was already a line of railroad to
the West of England. It was stated by the supporters of
the Great Western Railway, that great facilities would be
afforded by it for the carriage to London of hardware
goods, pottery, &c., from the middle counties, as it might
easily be connected, by branch roads, with several impor-
tant manufacturing towns.- He did not think that much
weight should be attached to this statement,- gisenre such -
branch lines of roads were mentioned in the preamble to the
Bill, nor were they more than merely alluded to before the
Committee. He repeated, nothing of the kind was said in
the Bill; bat it merely enacted that a railroad should be made
from London to Bristol, -through Reading. Supposing this
Bill did not pass, the line of road from London to Bristol, by
way of Basing, would be foetid of greater convenience to the
inhabitants of'Bristol. A Bill passed last year for making a
railway from London to Southampton, which, it was proposed,
should co.mmenicate by a branch road from Basing with Bris-
tol. There could be no doubt but that it would be a great
convenience to have such a direct line of communication be
tweed Bristol and Southampton as was proposed by this means.
By adopting this line of. road, there cycloid be a direct com-
munication between Bristol and the Bristol Channel, as well
as the French ports. -Persons also coming from Ireland could
thus proceed directly to the Continent. If equal convenience
was afforded to the public by making a railroad 74 miles long,
instead of one 129 miles in length, it was a sufficient reason
for adopting the former. A great many objections had beer.
urged against this Bill by the masters of Eton School. They
objected,' with a great deal of justice, against the, railroad
being brought so near that seminary. It was said that those
objections had been in some degree obviated. He did not
know whether this was the case or not ; but of course it was
for the heads of that establishment to form a judgment on the
subject. It appeared to him, however, that if the line of the
railroad was brought so near Eton as the back of Salt-hill, it
would be extremely difficult to make such arrangements as that
the discipline of tharcelebrated seminary should•not be affected.
The primary object of the Bill was to make a communication
between London and Bristol by meats of a railroad, and
they ought to consider the best means of attaining this end
without looking to other places. Again, it was well known
that the inhabitants of Bristol were anxious for the adoption
of the line of road which would enable them to hold a direct
communication with Southampton. A much smaller capital
would be required to complete the southern line of read than
the northern; and there was no doubt that the projectors of
the former had ample funds at their command 'to insure its
completion. Considerable progress had been made with that
portion of the Southampton railway which_ extended to Ba-
sing, and most of the difficulties had been overcome, and many
improvements had been made since last year in the lire of
road. The amount of work also that would be required would
be considerably less on the Basing line of road than on that
proposed in the Bill. If the progress that had been made in
the Southampton railway was considered, it must be admitted,
even by the most prejudiced, that the railroad to Bristol must
be completed in a shorter time than by the northern line of
road. There was one other point with respect to this Great
Northern Railroad to which he wished to advert, and with re-
spect to which he thought many well-founded objections could
be urged—the promoters of the Bill even admitted these oh-
jections—he alluded to the expensive line of steep tunnelling
in ono part of the line of road. He need hardly observe that
the completing this must necessarily be attended with great
expense as well as danger. He was also convinced that pass-
ing- through this tunnel at a rapid rate twould prove much
more prejudicial to passengers than Noble Lords were aware
.of, for they had to be dragged up a steep accent. There was
nothing of this kind in the Basing line of road, nor was there
a tunnel of the same length and declivity in any part of the
kingdom. The Noble Lord concluded with moving that the
Report be taken into further consideration .that day three
months,
Lord CAR BtR.V said as, an Irishman he felt great anxiety
for the eoMpletion of a railway between Bristol and the
tropolis, as he thought that his corintar would lIC by
it. The question then tea! which ryas the best line of Matt
that could be adopted ? they bad licen told that by tro6st&
ing with a railway from Basing to /Id:1M, ihtead of With the
Great Western R Olt expense of malting 45 miles of
road would he savpd. He did not think that the cApellBe ak:ne
of constrnoting thw railroad should be considered ; but ether
points should also be taken into account. It had been Coand
by experience, that a railway would riot pay merely by thg et',r-
riage of goods, but tnat the profit. meet se looked for by We
conveyance of passengers. The questioe then iras—whether
they were likely to g,.1 a greeter rAtall);:r of passengers on the
Basing line of road ot the Northern line ? After the best at-
tention to the subject, and after a long investigation as to the
state of the country and the population-on the two lines of
road, he had come to the conclusion that the Northern line of
road was much the best. His Noble Friend had alluded to
the long tunnel which it would be necessary to make, if the
line of road as laid down in the Bill was adopted e if it could
i be avoided, certainly it would be desirable; but no long line
' of' railway could be met with in which a tunnel did not occur.
His Noble Friend had complained of the long declension or
descent id this tunnel ; but the truth was, it was not greater
than that in the Lowther Arcade. The Company agreed to
ail the suggestions made by the masters of Eton, except one,
which was, that they should build up a wall ten feet high on
each side of the railway for four miles. Only imagine a wall
extending four miles across the country 1 What would the
people say who lived at each side of this Chinese wall at
being cut off from communicating with each other without
going miles round ?
The Duke of BUCCLE UGH said the observation just
made by the Noble Lord relative to the wail four miles long
was calculated to mislead their Lordships. No doubt a pro-
position was made .by the counsel for the masters of Eton
school to build up a wail ten feet high and some miles in length,
toprevent the boys getting on to the rail-road, but it .never
was seriously entertained for a single moment. The-changes
proposed, however, were likely to obviate the objections made
by the authorities at Eton. With regard to the question,
which of the two railroads is the preferable one, and the most
likely to be a profitable speculation,- he felt bound to say, that
when he considered the amount cf money requisite to com-
plete the one or the other, and when he considered the amount
of toll which was likely to be received upon each of them, the
whole evidence taken upon those points led him to the con-
clusion that the Southampton line was the most likely to pay
the expenses. There were other reasons which induced him
to prefer the Basingstoke line to the lice chosen for the Great
Western Railway. It had been said that railways were not so
much calculated for the conveyance of heavy goods as of pas-
sengers, and.that the) line of the Great Western Railway was
much more likely to attract passengers. It appeared to him
that both parties seemed to calculate upon about the sarnenum-
ber of passengers, and certainly he had heard no evidence to
show there would be any such enormous advantage in that
respect in favour of the Great'Western Railway to that which
-the Southampton Railway would have. Then it had been
said that there was this advantage in favour of the line of the
Western Railway—that a branch line could be constructed
from it to Stroud and Gloucester. But how did their Lord-
ships know that that branch would ever be constructed ?
( Hear, hear.) He had great doubts upon the subject, for it
would require not only a great deal of money, but the work
would be exceedingly difficult of execution.—(Hear, hear,)'
It did not by any means follow that if this Bill were thrown
out, there would be eo railway to Bristol, for there was another
Bill before the other House of Parliament, the object of which
was the construction of a railway from. London through Basing
to Bristol, of which forty-five miles was at this moment in the
course of completion Hear, hear)—and which would be
completed very soon. By the adoption of that line, there
would be a saving of the construction of no less than forty-five
miles of railroad--(Hear, hear)—besides
.that, the Western
Railway line, if adopted, would interfere materially with
many considerable residences, and destroy much valuable
land. He felt bound to say that, in his opinion, the whole
evidence taken before the Committee had not made out a case
which ought to induce their Lordships to pass this Bill.
Lord WEIARNCLIFFE then rose and said, that, the
real truth was that this was a contest—for contest it was—be-
tween two rival lines.—( Hear, hear.) -Last year Parliament
had passed an Act for making a railway between London and
Southampton. In that case it was made out that there would
be a profit upon the outlay of 20 per dent. But no sooner
had that Bill passed, than a prospectus was handed about with
a proposition for making a railway between Basing (a small
place-near Basingstoke) and Bath, and ultimately to Bristol.
That Bill-was thrown out on the second reading. He had had
some experience in railways, and be had never seen a scheme
of this kind which was likely to bg profitable, that was not
supported by the people in the neighbourhood of the district
through which it. passed. It was natural that if the specula-
tion wore likely to' jee productive, persons along the line would
be most likely to venture their money upon it. But in regard
to the Bath and Ba.eing line, it was not pretended that the
people along the liae had subscribed one shilling. Indeed, so
far was that from being the case, that the greater part of the
subscribers lived in Manchester,. Liverpool, and other places.
•

mom

The people of Bristol thought the 'Waste n ;Ithe
line
most likely to pay, and they therefore su iported it. It took
ti not only Bristol, but the whole country by Swindon to Cir-
( ncester, and so to South Wales. It took in all the great ma-
ufacturing districts in that part of the cou itry, and the people 6
f Bristol therefore supported it. With r.gard to the South-
mpton railway, when the parties who washed to take that line
showed that there would be a profit of 20 p ar cent; upon it, it be-
hoved them also to show that there was some probability. that
the line between Basing and Bristol would be completed.
Now what were the facts? The South impton Railway Com-
pany brought a Bill into the other Hous of Parlistment which
had passed one reading, and had never been carried any fur-
ther.--(Hear, hear.) The reason for this he would explain.
It was a rule in the other House of Pa diament that a Private
Bill could not be read 'a second time unless one-half of the
capital required to carry it into effect ware subscribed. Noe-,
in this case the capital required wasal,ooo,ooo/., while the
whole amount subscribed was
.only 350,0001, and even that
was subscribed not by persons along the lin ~of the railroad—
not by persons who had an interest in it fusther than as a
speculation—but by people in Manchester and Liverpool. But
besides this it was necessary that the consent of the proprietors
along the Basing and Bristol line should be obtained; and
who could say that they would not object to it? The Basing
and Bath line had also another great interest to contend with,
namely, the Avon Canal, which would most certainly oppose
it. He might also mention that that line passes through a
country which was certainly the least populous in the neigh-
bourhood of the metropolis, whereas the Western Railway
passed through Maidenhead, Windsor, Marlow. and a great
number of other towns, which would certainly add greatly to
the number of passengers who would travel by that line of
conveyance. Something had been said in regard to the injury
which the Western Railway would do to Eton. He really could
not see how the passing of a railway at the distance of a mild
and a half from the College could injure that Establishment.
It had been stated that it would give facilities to the b ays to go
to London; that, in short, it brought Eton within ten 1111:e3 of
the metropolis, instead of being, as it wayt present, twenty-
one miles from, it. But when it was considered that the boys
had in the first place to walk a mile and a half to the railway,
then to travel to Londdn, and to be back again at E'en within
an hour and a half, he did not think that they would have
much time to occupy themselves in town.—( Hear, hear.) Be- •
sides, their Lordships were aware that Westminster school
was still nearer, and. Charterhouse was actually within the
City, without any of Cat great evils so much dreaded in this
case having arisen to them. lie really could not see that
there was any danger to be apprehended to Eton on account
of this railway ; but at all events, clauses had been inserted
into the Bill, by which the Company were obliged to keep
persons to watch within certain distances near Eton, and to
prevent the boys from going on the railway. The real truth
was, that the Southampton Compiny wished to have all the
traffic to themselves, and felt that the railway had no chance
of paying, unless it was carried forward to Bristol. But he
thought that their Lordships would not consider that a suffi-
cient reason for throwing out the Bill then before them, if
upon other grounds the proposed line were considered better -
than that of the Southampton Company.
Lord BROLi G HAM said that he did not pretend to be a
judge of the merits of the two lines of railway, for he had not
attended the Committee, and lie was, in . fact, as ignorant of
the evidence as the twelve Noble Lords who, for the first
time, had come down to the Committee when they came to
give their votes. But what he wished to know from the
Noble Lord (WharaclitTe) was this :—The Committee hex-
ing heard evidence fur 41 days, and then made up their minds
upon that evidence, and certain Noble Lords having attended
the Committee during these 41 days, and counsel having
spoken,as was stated by the Noble Lord—one for eleven
hours, another for eight hours, and a third far six hours—he,
witched to know whether it was true that the Committee had
come to the decision of adopting the Report which they had
beard read, upon the notes of those who had heard the evi-
dence and the counsel, or upon the votes of those who had
not beard either the evidence or the counsel, but who came
dean in a goo& round dozen to vote upon the occasion, and
who had no more right to know any thing of the matter than
any of their Leraiships?—(Hear, hear.) Ile did not mean to
say that it was not quite legal for their Lordships to give their
votes in that manner, for he was well aware that their Lord-
ships were quite eetitied to give their votes upon subjects of
which they knew nothing.—(Hear, and a laugh.) But he
would ask if it wai the intention, when Select Committee§ of
their Lordships' House were appointed to examine into the
evidence neon which a Bill was founded, that votes should be
given in that rnanoer ? • 11c had always thought that the
meaning of proxies not being allowed upon Committees of -
their Lordship,' House was this—that the members of the
Committee should attend the meetings to hear the evidence,
and should judge by what they heard.—(Hear, hear.) He
had an old-fashioned notion that those who judged upon evi-
dence aliould hear the evidence. But that did not appear to
be the system in their Lordships' Committees. lie called it
a mockery to say evidence should be called, and counsel heard
upon anoint, while those who were to decide upon it were
riding in the parks or otherwise amusing themselves, and who
then came down and
.voted without hearing one word of the
evidence.—(Hear.) And not only was it a mockery of jus-
tice, but it was an unnecessary trouble and a totally unless
expense.—( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY reminded the Noble
and Learned Lord that on the previous night he had excused
himself fof haring acceded to a measure because it had been
recommended bya Committee in which he had confidence.
He (the Marpiis of Landonderry)
member
as some other of the Com-
mittee, and altheugh he di,lot attend as
a
n s closely
was riot unacquainted with the evidence. Ho
utseorted the Bill leei'ore their Lo,elsl4;, because it was of
ireportarile to Ireleei„ and was likely to be highly bene-
Reial to diet ctotinlry.
Lord BR UG 1-1 All cer:alk htt4 4riot intended to allude
to any particular Member of the Committee in the remarks
whleh he made 2 he merely protested against the practice or
votir,o Cow:l:ten s.,!tiintit illaring the evidence.
.
to
ok i'm:laiktebeton I.tatilide ti3bailti,thperoociewoedsi-
ed
e,,, a conviction that time evilence Mali had been produced
ilia be
in respect to it before tile gone
Ifa ti,:;:iatey.pcl:fi:ly to
cut up this grounds up.; _
ra*,,!t, to ni-tAtel tAlts rltVol' with that proposed by
it tttentied the Comp (tea
`" ii• dirtied, With the
this. atIA eery:n:lllli e
.could I:.,:steejnseceeotavanhyd
day toter day; from the time OI tn it)P b
exception of one ws.c!:, !Ykm d, and be
had carefully read the evidence tiler, during hi."'" Bill.
tilienoen
otrl;
the
e chief evidenceohilei
ci s. opinionion3, h o
„.7(- a:0
hei
culin
lie
against r
To.
thgiin-
of the Western Railway was its proxim'ity to greil;
consequeace of its adoption, as lie ttndetstood from some of
ilia
masters, was, that the vvhole system of discipline would feces-
siatreiolyulbde
lerolTbioe escul,paptil.)dseadmvul
inam%r.oetci tng aragcatiendstsethsteemßilaldloipe tweads.
unmindful or careless of the interests of Ireland, especially as
an equally good railway could be obtained by the Southampton
line. these, eircuanstaaces lie felt bound to vote for the
motion of the N01:10 Baron, and lie hoped that in doing so 1r
motives would not be misunderstood.—( Hear.)
Lord ASHBURTON should in general feel inolined to
led by the opinion of the Committee upon a subject of '
kind.. Upon an attentive consideration of the subject, he
certainly come to the conclusion that the Basing line wa
best line.—( Hear.) That was his firm opinion. The
non to be decided.was, which was the best line for a 'r
between 'Bristol and London ? Now, after hearing tl
nions-of the surveyors, and of many gentlemen who we
qualided, as well as from his own observation, upon the
tive claims of the one line and of the other, he admit
it might he a subject of considerable doubt which she
the prefarence ; but when he found that for forty-five
two railroads could go together, he was certainly
give his support for that which was already in progra
hear)—both on account of the great expense whi
saved, and on account of there not being so mud
of the coun'ry. He thought too, that where the? •
railway the chance of its being kept in good a
greater than if there were two. His impressi,
having two Bills and two lines of railway, bon•
badly kept.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord co
serving that lie was not very conversant wi
their Lordships' House, and, therefore, did n
it was customary to oppose the bringing up
Select Committee ; • but considering the
Session, he thought it would be as well
of the House upon the measure now as
of the Bill. •
The Earl of CARYSFORT did not b
many Noble Lords who were better ace
of country through which the railway v •
ried than he happened to be. The c'
importantly interested in this question
tion with that city he was most anxicn
sure that could be beneficial to it. •
it appeared to him the persons conne
tol were quite mistaken in their 8,
the formation of the Western Ra
that the Basing line would not o
city of Bristol itself, but would al
terests were so intimately conne
regard to this Report, be always •
most confidence in the reports
Lordship's House, when those
gularly by its members, and

them by the evidence addu-ce‘
to hew been carried by a IT
of %' :0m had never before

fessed he could not give th
should otherwise be dispos
Lord SEGRAVE ha
attentive perusal of the c
'communication with pars
anti,Gloucester, felt hie
port of ihe Bill.
The Marquis of CI
to their Lordships, th'
been a justification o'
withstanding he did
ship was so impede(
vouch for the corre'
The Earl of C!
more astonished i•
land come down
port. upon a sub'
word of evideru
duct not befitti•
spoke warmly.
naver known •
on a Report
• the Commit
gaged in a
having giv
pos3 of a'
tion invpl