The Sun.
London, England, 1832-06-14 00:00:00

Hon. and Learned Gentleman imputed to him. lies
would not recriminate. He Versed not allude to-the con-
stant state of agitation in which *the Hon- anetearned-
Gentleman endeavoured to keep Ireland. 'fhere were
charges which lie might bring forward in reply to the
Hon. 214 Learned Gentleman, but he would abstain from
noticing the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's spoken Ca-
lumnies, as he had always abstained from noticing his
written ones. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman must
certainly, however, have been laughing at his audience in
that House (as be had frequently laughed at his audience
elsewhere), when he expressed his surprise that an Irish-
man had not been selected to bring in the Irish Reform Bill.
Why, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman knew perfectly
well, that it was necessary that that Bill should be brought
in by an organ of Government. He (Mr.. Stanley) had
brought in the Irish Reform Bill, not because he was not
an Irishman, but because he was the Chief Secretary for
Ireland. If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman were
really desirous that a Bill, either with or without amend-
ments, for reforming the representation in Ireland, should
pass, he would have allowed the House to go into the con-
sideration of the first clause, which would have afforded
him the opportunity of moving in the shape of an amend-
ment to that clause, the amendment which lie had moved
as an instruction to the Committee. But the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman threatened to move instruction after
instruction. Was that the way to facilitate the accom-
plishment of Reform ? Was that the way to esta-
blish the good understanding between thin country and
Ireland, the absence of which the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman always lamented, and yet tock all
possible means to perpetuate? He would now say
a few words with respect to the forty-shilling
freeholders in Ireland. He was happy to find that
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman abandoned all except
the forty-shilling freeholders in fee.—[Mr. 0' Connell
said a few words across the table, which we understood to
be a denial of this supposition.] The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman maintained that it had been wrong to take
away the elective franchise from this class of persona, and
therefore that it ought to be restored. In the first place,
there was a great difference between confirming a right now
existing, and giving a right which the legislature had re-
cently denied. He did not say that in 1829 he might not
have been induced to make any exception in favour of the
forty-shilling freeholders in fee. But now, unless it could
be proved that that class of persona was a large and re-
epectahle body, he should be unwilling to acknowledge
a theoretical right in Ireland, simply because that right
had been acknowledged in England. It must first be seen
whether the individuals were the same respectable class of
persons in Ireland that they were in England. Now he
believed, that in a great majority of the Irish counties,
there was not a single forty-shilling freeholder ; and that
in the great majority of the counties in Ireland in which
there were forty-shilling-freeholders in fee, they were the
lowest, the most venal, and the most corrupt portion of the
population. In the county of Wexford, for instance, there
were a considerable number of them ; and what were
they? Persons, who, to use the American phrase, had
"squatted" on a mountain or bog, and acquired a title by
long possession. These persons were so venal, that at as
election for the county, many years ago, the rival candi-
date, came to an agreement not to purchase the eight hun-
dred votes offered them for that purpose by the forty-
shilling freeholders in fee. Unless, therefore, he heard
from the Members for Ireland that there was in that coma-
try a large and respectable body of forty-shilling free-
holders in fee—not under the control of their landlords;
not under the contro 1 of their priests, or not under the
control of agitators--he should not think that the right
nn the part of that class to the restoration of the elective
franchise had be, n made out ; and on that short ground lie
opposed the instruction which had been moved by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Mr. LEADER warmly supported the motion made by
his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Kerry, and
maintained that there was a deep feeling of dissatisfaction
and rancour throughout Ireland with respect to the new
measure of Reform. In the province of Ulster there
were, at the time of the Disfranchisement Bill, 190,000
voters, fur whom bad been substituted a constituency of
19,264 ten. pound freeholders. From documents in his
possession, it appeared that by the new measure the
county constituency would not exceed 26,000 in number.
In the five-and-twenty email towns comprehended in the
Bill, there would, in fact, be no extension, but only a
change in the elective franchise. The proposed measure
was a mere moel:ery. The people of Ireland were, how-
ever, quite alive to their rights—and, he believed, were
determined to maintain them. He called on Government
to reconsider this qualification, and reduce it in towns to
51., which in Ireland would not be. a lower qualification
than 101. in England.
Sir J. BURKE—In Committee he would move that
six of the Members representing smaller towns, and the
additional Member for the University, should be given to
the seven larger counties.
Mr. H. GRATTAN would support the amendment.
Sir J. NEWPORT contended that the 40s. freeholders
in fee should be placed on the same footing as in Ireland.
Much of the Bill was beneficial—but there was also much
evil mingled with it. He sawn° reason why the system of
registration should not he the same in both countries.
Lord ALTHORP felt it hie duty to support the mea-
sure as it stood. The effect of the instruction would be
to impede, if not altogether to destroy the measure. The
object of Government, in proposing Reform was not so
much to create new rights as to remove practical griev-
ances. The 10s. freeholders in fee possessed no right
under the present law. They were not a numerous
class ; and he saw no practical grievance in withholding
the franchise from them. As to the registration, he
thought it would be well to wait until they saw how the
system would work in Eugland, and then, if there were
any alterations that could be suggested, which would he
likely to be beneficially employed in Ireland, he should
be willing to listen to the suggestion, and give it his best
consideration.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL should support the amendment,
and with respect to the system of registration, was fully
convinced, from his own personal observation, that it was
very partially conducted in Ireland. It certainly required
amendment. He objec'ed to the refusal to give the fran-
chise to the forty-shilling freeholders in fee, because he
thought that to deprive them of that franchise was to take
away from them an honest of of ambition, which
would operate successfully to promote among them habits
of frugality and forethought.
Mr. WYSE was also in favour of the amendment, and
said that to deprive the bona fide 40s. freeholders in fee
of a franchise was to do that which could not hut pro-
mote a spirit of discontent in Ireland. The reason given
for this was, that to allow the franchise to that class of
men would be to give it to those who were sure to be in
flueneed in the exercise of it. He denied the fact in the
first place, but, if liability to be influenced in some way or
other was an objection to allow a man, he hardly knew a
corner in the empire that was free flow the liability.
This was not like a common Bill that might be changed
to-morrow; it ought to be a final measure, but it could
not be so if it was not satisfactory to the people.
Mr. HUNT should support the amendment.
Mr. JAMES GRATTAN should certainly support the
amendment ; because, under all circumstances, he bad
been opposed to depriving the 40s. freeholders in Ire

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Find of their votes ; and he must consis►tently adhere to
that opinion. He took that opportunity of thanking the
Noble Lord for having stated that he should be willing at
another time to listen to suggestions for the improvement
of the registration system in Ireland.
Mr. YOUNG supported the amendment.
Mr. SHIEL also supported the amendment. There
was one paramount reason why it should be adopted, and
that was, that it would assimilate the constituencies of the
two countries. There were, however, other reasons,

though that was one of paramount importance.

were, first, that the number of 40s. freeholders in fee was

very small, so that no inconvenience could be dreaded from
introducing them into the constituencies; next, that to

,
admit them, would be to admit an important principle ;
and lastly, that such a course would be a most gratifying
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concession to the people of Ir'elantl. On these grounds he
entre,ited the House to yield what would cost them so

little, while it would he so much estimated in Ireland.

Lord J. RUSSELL referred to what bad paased during
the discussion of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, when a

compact was entered into to abolish the forty-shilling free-
holders in Ireland, in order that the boon of emancipation
so long withheld might at length be granted. Without
the abolition of the forty.shilling freeholders, that xnea-

sure would neither have met with the sanction of the Le•

gialature nor the assent of the Crown. lie contended,
therefore, that it was not fit now to restore what had been

then withdrawn. The question as to the close boroughs
of Ireland stood upon entirely diff-rent grounds, as during
the debates on the Relief Bill no engagement regarding
them had been entered into, nor were they mentioned in
the discussion. His Lordship also contended, that same
of the wishes and remonstrances of the Irish Members'
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before the Bill was framed, had been atteniell—toraricil,e,
particularly instanced the point regarding leases. He was,
sorry the Hon. Member thought there was any disposition,
in the British Government to withhold from Ireland a

boon which could be safely conceded : he assured hint that
such was by no means the case, and he requested him and'
others not to consider the propositions of the advisers of
the Crown with a spirit of jealousy, which could only ex-.

cite unmerited enmity. -
-Mr. JAMES should support the motion, on the groura,,