The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JULY 11, 1835.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that nothing could be
more fallacious than the argument held by the Hon. -Mem-
ber for Middlesex relative to the diet of the prisoners, inas-
much as men in confinement required a better diet than
those who were in the enjoyment of air and exercise. Any
penitentiary to be effective, must be more or less expen-
sive ; but as it was within his immediate province as Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department, he would look
into the subject.

The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was one of 4,094/. for the salaries and other
expenses of the State Paper-office, and the office for the
custody of records.
After a short discussion, in which it was contended that,
for the convenience of reference these documents ought to be
placed under one roof, and that the enormous fees charged
upon literary gentlemen for referring to the historical records
ought to be abolished, the vote was agreed to.
5,1001. was then granted to defray the expense of the Com-
missioners appointed to inquire into the state of the Irish
Corporations.
On the question being put that 10,2001. be granted to de-
fray the charge of the Commissioners appointed to make a di-
gest of the criminal laws'
Mr. HUME asked if there was a prospect of this being
continued ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Commis-
sioners had made one Report, which had been generally ap-
proved of, and would shortly present another.
Mr. JERVIS said that these Commissioners had been
employed for two years, during which they had only made one
Report. There were fire Commissioners at 8001. a-year each,
and still they could only make one Report. The reason was
obvious—they could not give time to the objects of the Com-
mission, because the Commissioners were gentlemen in exten-
sive practice in their profession as barristers ; indeed, some of
them as large as any lawyers in Westminster-hall. It was ri-
diculous to say that they could not, if they applied themselves
to the objects of the Commission, produce more than one Re-
port in a year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Commission had originated more with the House of
Commons than with the Government. The necessity of re-
ducing the written and the unwritten law into one uniform
code had been long felt and urged upon the attention of the
Government, and he was confident that the task could not
have been confided to persons more capable of effecting it than
those appointed.
Mr. JERVIS said that all the Commissioners had to do
was to digest the law as it now stood, and not to make a new
code of laws.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
great object of the Commission was not to collect the whole
of the statutes, but to reduce them into one, as the House
might see by referring to the first page of the Report, in
which the object was stated to be, first, that of digesting all
the criminal laws into one statute ; secondly, condensing into
one statute all the provisions of the common and unwritten
law ; and, thirdly, endeavouring to combine both into one
statute.

Mr. BLACKBURNE observed, that if the Gentlemen ap-
pointed on Commissions were to occupy the whole of their
time on them, undoubtedly they would get through their la-
bours in a short time. If this were the case, however. they
could not get competent persons to accept the office of Com-
missioners.
After a few words from Mr. ROEBUCK,

Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET wished to know how
many years it was probable that the Commission would last.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied that another Re-
port was nearly ready, and he hoped and believed that the la-
bour of the Commissioners was drawing to a close.
Mr. CL A Y asked the Attorney-General whether be thought
it probable that the measure for the abolition of imprisonment
for debt was likely to be carried this session?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL should feel most deeply
disappointed if the measure alluded to by the Hon. Gentle-
man did not become the law of the land this session. He had
given notice of the introduction of this Bill the first day of the
session, and whether in or out of office, he was most anxious
to do all in his power to carry it through that House. He
must appeal to his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) to name
some day when he could proceed with this measure. It had
been brought forward by the Government of Earl Grey, and
he hoped that his Noble Friend and those connected with him
in office would give him their assistance to carry the Bill into
effect.-_( Hear, hear.) Till the Bill had passed through both
Houses, he would persist, at any sacrifice, in bringing the sub-
ject before the Legislature.
After an observation from Mr. HAWES,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL felt the importance of the ques-
tion, and fully agreed with his Hon. and Learned Friend as to
the soundness of the principle of his meaaure ; at the same
time he felt that he could not consistently postpone the con-
sideration of the Municipal Corporation Bill, for the purpose
of giving his Hon. and Learned Friend precedence. He did
not know that he hitherto .could have complied with the re-
quest of his Learned Friend, but he trusted in the course of a
few days an opportunity would be afforded to bring this sub-
ject forward.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not complain that
this measure had not been brought forward instead of the Mu-
nicipal Corporations Bill: indeed, he felt that it would have
been most improper for him to have desired any such thing.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was for 2,7001., to defray the expense of the
Commission to inquire into the county rates.
After some observations from Mr. HUME and Mr. SHAW
LEFEVRE, the vote was agreed to.
The next vote was 12,841/., to defray the charge of salaries
and expenses of the Commissioners, &c., appointed to carry
into execution the Act for the amendment, and better ad-
ministration of the laws relating to the poor in England and

Sir S. WHALLEY was sure that the country would feel
that it had not received anything like adequate services for
the charge made in this estimate.
Mr. PEASE was sure that six months would not elapse
before the feeling would generally prevail, that the Poor-law
Bill had improved the condition of the poorer classes ; and
he was satisfied this opinion would be entertained by those
classes.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME was satisfied of the success of the Bill, and be
bad no hesitation in saying that its success had surpassed his
most sanguine expectations.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
If any retorm was more satisfactory to his mind than another,
it was that which would exalt the condition of the labouring
classes from the state of degradation in which they had been
placed by the operation of the law.--( Hear, hear.) His Hon.
e'riend must know that this Bill had led to a great reduction
of the rates in the parish of Marylabonne, although its intro-
duction had in the first instance been opposed. He believed
that if ever there was a measure which was likely to better the
state of the working classes, and make them industrious, and
rely on their own industry, instead of looking to any oleemosy-
eary assistance they might obtain from the parish, this was
that measure.—( Hear, hear.) From information that he had
obtained, he believed that the amount of saving in the rates
effected by this Bill, in the two parishes of Marylabonne and
St. George's, Hanover-square, was much larger than the esti-
mate they were now called on to vote. If the system worked
well, it probably would not be necessary to bring forward such
a large estimate as the present ; he should be sorry, however,
to risk the success of a plan, which he believed to be most
excellent, by anthing like niggardliness.
Mr. ROBINSON cautioned the House against too hastily
adopting an opinion as to the success of the Poor Law Bill.
It had been tried under the most favourable circumstances,
namely, when the people were in general employ and food
was cheap ; but before they could form a just estimate of its
value, they must see what would be its effects in seasons of
difficulty. He should look forward with anxiety to such a
period.
- •

Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not mean to go into the ge-
neral question of the Poor Laws, but he wished to observe
that very shortly the Report of the Commissioners would be
laid on the table, which would show to what extent the Act of
last Session had been carried into effect. His opinion as to
the working of the measure was similar to that entertained by
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, namely, that the success of
the Bill had surpassed the expectations of those who were
most favourable to it.--(Hear, hear.) He did not think that
they could give less salaries than were now allowed to the
Commissioners. He thought a great portion of the good
likely to result from this measure would depend on their hav-
ing the most efficient persons to carry it into effect, and their
aid could not be obtained unless with apparently large salaries.
It was most desirable to have the Bill carried into effect with
great judgment, for if it was endeavoured to be enforced too
hastily, instead of leading to good, the beneficial result which
ho anticipated would be destroyed, and they never would be
able afterwards to restore to it that beneficial working which
it might now have. He did not think ,that the salaries of
these officers were too much for the eminent services they had
to perform. Whatever might be the case hereafter, he did
not think there could be any immediate saving ,effected, but
any rate he should be extremely sorry for the sake of a few
hundred pounds, to risk the success of the 8i11.._( Hear.)
Mr. CLAY was surprised that gentlemen possessing the
abilities of the Assistant Commissioners could be induced to
discharge the laborious duties of that office for a salary of
7001. These Commissioners would enable the House to ob-
tain constant accounts of the state of the poor throughout the
whole country, The Poor-law Bill would not only lead to a
great financial saving, but to that which was of infinitely
greater consequence--it would lead to the improvement of the
labouring classes.
Mr. HARDY objected most strongly to the bastardy clause.
Mr. HODGES' opinion respecting the bastardy clauses of
the Poor-law Bill had undergone no change since last year.
Mr. MARK PHILIPS thought that the House would
incur great moral culpability if, on the score of expense, it
stood in the way of the Commissioners carrying the measure
into effect. •
_ . _

Sir M. W. RIDLEY regretted that Hon. Gentlemen
should attempt to excite the prejudices of the labouring
classes against the Poor-law Bill by constantly appealing to
their passions and feelings. It must be tried to a certain ex-
tent before its success could be spoken of with confidence.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG congratulated himself on having been
a constant opposer of that measure, and he, for one, felt more
doubtful than ever of its successful operation.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET did not think that the
Poor-law Bill had worked so successfully as some Gentlemen
supposed ; but that was not a time to go into the question.
Ile wished to ask the Noble Lord whether the number of
Assistant Commissioners now engaged would be sufficient
hereafter to carry the Bill fully into effect.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the number of Assist-
ants would be sufficient, but he would not pledge himself on
the subject.—Agreed to.
On the motion that 14,0001. be granted for the salaries and
expenses of the Commissioners for preventing traffic in slaves,
Mr> HUME was happy to observe that a great reduction

had been made in this vote :- he wished to know whether it was
intended to makb any further reduction? As the country
paid so much for the abolition of slavery, it had a right to
complain if the Act were not carried into effect in the strictest
manner.

Lord PALMERSTON said that if the Hon. Gentleman
would rely on the discretion of the Government he would find
them diminishing the charge as much as was possible. With
respect to the second point in the Hon. Gentleman's remarks,
he could assure him that if they had not succeeded in putting
down the traffic in slaves, it was not, owing to a want of at-
tention to the execution of the stipulations, but to the defec-
tive nature of the stipulations themselves. Formerly, if a ship
was on the sea, without slaves on board, though it was mani-
festly intended to receive them, it was not allowable, under
the articles of the treaties, to seize that ship, or to condemn
her. A treaty had since been entered into with Spain, by
which any ship under the Spanish flag, and equipped in a
particular way, for the purpose of receiving slaves, though
there,were no slaves on board, might now be seized and con-
deemed.—( Cheers.) All such vessels were to be hereafter
broken up. Ships destined for the slave trade were not fit for
carrying much merchandize ; and it was discovered that if
they were sold, they were generally bought for the purpose
for which they had been built. After-ships had been con-
demned to be sold, they almost always appeared again in
the same trade. He hoped that these additional articles
would afford them the means of putting down the traffic.—
Agreed to.
It was moved that 95,966/. be granted, to defray the charge
of the salaries of his Majesty's Consuls-General, Consuls,
and Vice-Consuls; and of the Superintendents of Trade at
Canton.
An Hon. MEMBER asked the Noble Lord if the same
amount of salaries was now paid to the same number of
superintendents at Canton, as last year?
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the establishment was
the same as in the estimate of last year.
Mr. YO UNG inquired whether the appointment of Lord
Napier had been filled up ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the second Superintend-
ent succeeded to the first, and the third to the second ; and
the Government had appointed a third. There was now the
same number of Superintendents as before.
Mr. EW ART having asked a question respecting Tripoli,
which was inaudible, as well as the answer given by Lord
Palmerston,
Dr. BO WRING should have made some remarks on this
part of the subject, if it had not been that the Noble Lord
had' evinced the greatest readiness before the Committee to
give them the most ample explanations, and the fullest infor-
mation in his power.—Agreed to.
On the motion that 66,218/. be granted to defray the charge
of the retired allowances and superannuations,
Mr. HUME said that this vote was too large. They ought
not to go on in this way every year adding to the dead weight.
He thought they might abolish the pensions altogether.

Mr. BARING admitted that there was a small increase in
the retired allowances, but this was owing to the reduction of
officers. If there were a reference to the amount of business
done, it would be found that there was no reason to complain
that a bad bargain had been made for the public. In 1830
the amount paid was 119,0001. ; in 1835 the same amount of
business was done for about 58,000/., being a saving of 40,0001.
—Agreed to.
On the motion that 11,5001. be granted for the. Toulonese
and Corsican emigrants, Dutch naval officers, &c., and Ame-
rican loyalists—
Mr. HUME wished to know if there was any vote for the
Polish refugees?
Mr. BARING said that, if there were, it would be sup-
pl ementary.
Mr. HUME hoped there was every proof of the identity of
those parties, in the course of the last four or five years. He
suspected they were paying to the representatives of names
that had been entered upon the list since the Edict of Nantes.
—(A laugh. )—Agrced to.
The sum of 1,850/. were ♦oted to defray the charge of the
National Vaccine Establishments.

On the motion that 3,0001. be voted for the support of the
Refuge for the Destitute—
.lr. HUME said this was the onlygrant now made for what
was called a charitable institution. There had been great
complaints of the management of this institution ; formerly
601. or 701. was charged for each of the inmates. He wished
to know if any Report had been made of the number main-
tained, and of the proportion which the private subscriptions
bore to the amount of the grant ? -
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, as we understood, said that he
could not answer the question of his Hon. Friend; but he
would make the inquiries he suggested.
Mr. HUME said that the information he asked for was very
desirable. He hoped there would be a Return furnished of
the number of individuals maintained by the institution, and of
the amount of the present subscriptions.—Agreed to.
On the motion that 2,5901. be granted for the charge of con-
fining and maintaining criminal lunatics,
Lord G. SOMERSET said there ought to be some gene-
ra Mace of confinement for these lunatics. Such an arrange-
ment would, he knew, be more expensive than the one exist-
ing at present ; but it would be exceedingly beneficial.
Mr. BARING concurred with the view of the Noble Lord.
The Government had taken the subject into consideration, and
he hoped on a future occasion to bring forward some measure
on this subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed with the Noble Lord,
that nothing could be worse than the present system of con-
fining lunatics in our county gaols. It would be far better to
have an establishment where all the lunatics in the kingdom
could be confined.

Mr. H UME hoped that some inquiry would be made into
the expenditure of this money. Here were 2,5901. spent, and
he was informed that the number maintained did not exceed
females and forty-five males. This was three time- r•.s
much as any other establishment in this country, taking
this proportion of the number provided for, cost. He thought
there must be some mistake in the estimate ; if there were
not, this money could not be expended fairly and properly.
—Agreed to.
On the motion that 36,8001. be granted for Secret Service,
Mr. HUME hoped the time had now arrived when they
could do without secret service money, more particularly as a
majority was not longer to be obtained in that House by pa-
tronage. He knew nothing that this country ought to do that
it could not do openly. If they acted honestly, that which
they did would bear the light. He felt that he would not be
justified in taking the sense of the House on this subject, but
he would enter his protest against the grant.—Agreed to.
On the motion that 191,7361. be granted to defraylthe charge
of printing and stationery for the Public Departments in Great
Britain and Ireland,
Mr. HUME said though this was apparently a very large
vote, he believed it was the lowest asked on this account for
the last ten years. The House would, perhaps, be surprised
when they found a Report on their table—and he hoped it
would be there within forty-eight hours—showing that nearly
a million sterling had been paid for printing within the last
ten or twelve years. This was the first attempt made at sepa-
rating the charges, and he must say that it did the Govern-
ment great credit. When each account was taken separately,
it would be seen that an enormous saving would be effected.
The sum of 31,0001. had been saved in paper, and printing the
Parliamentary documents alone, between 1833 and 1834—one
year.—Agreed to.
The sum of 3,000/. was voted to defray the expenses of the
coinage at the Mint.
On the motion that 8,000/. be granted to defray the ex-
penses of Mint prosecutions,
Mr. HUME had been informed that the Solicitor to the
Mint had a regular salary. Could the Hon. Gentleman inform
him how many Mint prosecutions there had been ?
Mr. BARING replied 262.

Mr. KEARSLEY rose, and directly he did so there was
great laughter, with cries of " Hear." He said I have often
considered the Hon. Member for Middlesex a useful check to
the extravagance that would otherwise be indulged in—( A
laugh)—but after what I witnessed five minutes ago, I must
put down his conduct as perfect humbug.—( Shouts of
laughter.) I say it without any feeling of unkindness to the
Hon. Member.—( A laugh.) I have thought him hitherto a
vigilant and active overseer.—(Laughter.) But when a vote
was just now put to the House for—for—l don't recollect the
amount—(Renewed laughter)—for the secret service—( Seve-
ral Hon. Members " name the amount")—it was thirty some-
thing thousand pounds---( Great laughter, and cries of " Oh,
oh")—I saw an Hon. Gentleman go over and check him for
his interference—(Repeated cries of " No, no")—I saw it—
(No, no, and laughter)—l saw it—(Continued laughter, and
No")—and I say I will see no humbug.—( Peals of laughter
ensued, and the Hon. Gentleman resumed his seat.)
Mr. HUME—I am afraid that the Hon. Member's optics
are not in a good state.—(Continued cries of " Hear," and
much laughter.) I believe the Hon. Member sees double.—
( Renewed shouts of " Hear," and more laughter.) Much as
I object to secret-service money, I feel, that instead of voting
50,000/. or 60,000/., as formerly, we have got down to
36,0001.—(Hear, hear)—and if I knew that this Government
could dispense with the pensions and other charges incurred
by preceding Governments—( Hear, hear)—l should be glad
to reduce the grant still further ; but when I see the Govern-
ment reducing the votes from year to year, I am inclined to
think there is some probability that they will go on.—( Hear.)
Then let not the Hon. Member say of me when I see reduc-
tion so going on, that lam indifferent to further reduction. I
deny it altogether._( Hear, hear.) Nor did any person speak
to me on the subject.—( Cheers.) Therefore, I say it is most
unfair
_tie forar thehe Hon.a
rN.) I hleegmtbne rt
tell
bring t
the this
n.
Member
g
tme.
h er
he nor any other person can prevent me from making any ob-
servation that I may think it proper to make.—( Cheers. )
Mr. KEARSLEY again rose amidst laughter. I beg in
answer, to tell the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that he
shall not control me by his abuse.—( Cries of " No ! " and
,4 Order 1") If I have an infirmity, and cannot see, it is not
a political infirmity. If my sight is not good, perhaps his
head is not so clear as might be.—( Laughter, " Oh !" and
,‘ Order 1") I did not wish to make these personal observa-
tions.—(A laugh.) Whether the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex is counselled by his right hand Hon. Member, or any
one else, in what we do, the country's eyes will be on us,
and we shall see whether his doctrine or mine will prevail.
(,‘ Hear," and laughter.)
Mr. H UME—( Cries of " No, no 1")—I beg to explain
that I don't accuse the Hon. Member of not seeing me,
but of seeing double.—(Laughter.)
Mr. KEARSLEY—(Loud cries of " Chair," and " or-
der.") tell the Hon. Member for Middlesex he is out of
his reckoning.—(Laughter, and renewed cries of " Chair." )
hope I can see to count the " tottal of the whole " as
well as he can.—( The Hon. Member sat down ; another
sentence or two that he uttered having been drowned in the
laughter and the_ loud cries that were raised of " Chair,"
and " Order.")
The vote was then agreed to:

On the motion that 64,0001. be granted for the charge of
confining: and maintaining convicts at home and at Bermuda,
Mr. HUME thought that there ought to be some account
of this vote ; it was too large a sum for only one line to be
given in explanation of it.
Mr. BARING said, the vote was in the usual form, but
it would be better to put it in a different form hereafter.—
Agreed to.
The next vote, of 10,0001. for the Commissioners of Re-
cords, was agreed to, as was also the next vote of 4,0001. for
the expenses of Turnpike Acts.
The next vote of 20,0001. for Commissioners for erecting
school-houses for the education of poor children being pro-
posed,
Mr. E WART complained of the deficiency of public libra-
ries in this country as compared with other countries of Eu-
rope, and expressed a hope that before the lapse of ano-
ther year the Government would take that subject into their
consideration.

The vote was then agreed to, as was also that of 1,0001 for
the Geographical Society to defray the expenses of discove-
ries in Africa. _ _

The following votes were then agreed to :-4,5991. 13s. 4d.
for defraying the charge of the civil establishment of Bermu-
das ; 3,120 L for defraying the civil establishment of Prince
Edward's Island; 12,0301. 15s. 10d. for the charges of the
civil establishment of the Western coast of Africa.

On the vote of 14,2901. 18s. 6d. for defraying the expenses
of the Ecclesiastical Establishment of North America being
proposed,
Mr. HUME opposed it, on the ground that it was not under
the disposal of that House or of the Assembly.
Mr. SHEIL observed, that one item in the charge was
3,0001. a-year for the Protestant Bishop, whilst 1,0001. only
was allowed to the Catholic Bishop, though the Catholic reli-
gion was the established religion of Lower Canada. He cer-
tainly thought that the income of the Protestant Bishop ought
to be lowered.

Mr. L A BOUCHERE remarked that it was probable that
the Catholic Bishops in Lower Canada possessed other sources
of revenue besides this nominal income.

The Resolution was then agreed to.
The House having resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit again.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS' BILL EXPENSES.

In a Committee of the whole House on the Municipal Cor-
porations' Bill Expenses, it was resolved, on the motion of
Lord JouNRussELL, " That the Lords of the Treasury
should be empowered to grant, out of the Consolidated Fund,
the remuneration and expenses of Revising Barristers under
the Municipal Corporations' Bill."
. .

The Report was ordered to be received on Monday.
ELECTION EXPENSES, AND QUALIFICATION

OF MEMBERS' BILL.
Mr. HUME moved the second reading of the above-men.
tioned Bill.

Colonel SIBTHORP opposed the motion; and moved, as
an amendment, " That it be read a second time on Thursday
next."

Mr. A. TREVOR thought it much too important a measure
to be brought on that late hour.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER approved
of the principle of the Bill, and would agree to the second
reading, reserving to himself the right in the Committee to
object to the qualification clause.
Mr. R. COLBORNE also acquiesced in the second read-
ing of the Bill, although his objections to the qualification
clause were as strong as those of the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had just spoken.
The House then divided—
For the Amendment
Against it
Majority —s3

On our return to the gallery, we found the House discuss-
ing an amendment which we understood had been moved by
Mr. A. Trevor, that the Bill should be read a second time that
day six months. Eventually another division took place—
For the Amendment
Against it 5B
Majority
The Bill was then a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted on Thursday.

The remaining Orders of the Day having been disposed of
a Half-past One this morning the House adjourned to Mon.
day next.