The Sun.
London, England, 1835-02-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 1835.

came from Mr. Perceval and a noble and rev. relative of mine,
I do not think that any charge of inconstency can be, or will
he, brought against them for bringing forward a measure of
Church Reform. (Loud Cheering.) It is not at all ne-
cessary to refer to this measure. It has been mentioned in his
Majesty's speech, and it has been mentioned in that commission,
which has been long before us, and I will say that it is
difficult to find a subject connected with Church Reform
which has not been alluded to more or less distinctly hi
the terms of this Commission, in the object of which I
heartily concur, as being one of those nearest to my own
feelings. I haVe looked for this measure with great anxiety ;
it is a measure that has been long desiderated, and coining
from the quarter it does, it will not be looked to with the
same jealousy.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) I am
glad to see that his Majesty has so much at heart the
extension of religious education to the poorer classes, as well
in this country as in Scotland.
_I am sincerely glad that the
poorer classes in Scotland have not been forgotten. I hope
that the principles laid down in that measure will be commen-
surate to the religious wants of the community.--(Cheers. )
I know that these are reforms not touching the feelings cd'
many Gentlemen here, and not suitable to the Hon. Member
for Dublin ; but I know that they are reforms which affect
the feelings of the great majority of the people.—( Great cheer-
ing. ) We who mingle with every class of the people, know
the real feelings of the people; and those who, like myself;
are representatives of the largest towns in the empire, know
that such reforms interest the feelings, and will secure the
approbation of the people.--( Hear.) I think that I have
now touched upon all the leading subjects alluded to in the
King's speech.. I feel that having undertaken these Reforms,
His Majesty's Government will go on in a spirit of sound and
wholesome not speculative, reform. I feel that the Reforms they
have proposed, give them claim—not only to the support of
their friends, hut also of those who sit on the opposition
benches. Ido not know in what respect those who formed
part of Earl Grey's Administration, or who supported
it—or who were attached to it--I do not mean the Ad-
mistration of Lord Melbourne, for to that Ministry I
am not aware that attachment was ever shown ; but I ask those
who supported Earl Grey's Ministry, whether the
reforms now proposed are not such as Lord Grey himself
would have proposed ?—( Hear.) I ask those Gentlemen
whether they feel very comfortable in the seats which they
now hold, and in the company in which they now are ? Ido
not allude to the personal, but to the political character
of Hon. Members.—( Hear, hear.) . But do - they feel
comfortable in a union with those who advocate uni-
versal suffrage and all the other tenets of the Radical school ?
Is it possible that those gentlemen who maintain so strongly,
and I believe sincerely, can long unite themselves with those
who hold that the Established Church is a curse, and publicly
avow they will never rest until that Church is destroyed?
Can they, who are so strongly attached to the inte-
grity of the empire, unite themselves with those who
only suspend the agitation—(Loud cheers from the Ministe-
rial benches)—who only suspend agitation at this nioment, for
the dismemberment of the Establishment, because they think
that a temporary suspension will ultimately advance their
cause.—( Loud cheers.) I should be curious to know what
is the common principle, that over-weening principle, that
attaches them to that party. lam sure that it would not induce
them all to merge into this one common consideration of de-
struction. This is not a time for party spirit—( Hear)—this
I repeat, is not a time for party spirit. There are seasons in
which every man is bound to think for himself, to look around,
and to see the responsibility which rests upon him. I have,
I. must confess, sanguine hopes that a great proportion of those
respectable gentlemen will not unite with those persons whom
I have described, and indeed I might say that I do not think
they will find it consistent with their former character so to do.
I will not intrude further on the attention of the public, and
if I have occasionally expressed myself too strongly, I can assure
the House that nothing is farther from my intention, and
that it is rather to be attributed to my want of habit, my
trespassing on their consideration. I have mixed largely with
almost every one in this House, but the sense of public duty would
not allow me to describe less strongly my opinions on the
subject of the speech from the throne. In conclusion I shall
beg pardon for having trespassed so long upon your attention,
and by moving that an humble address of thanks be moved to I
his Majesty for his Majesty's most gracious speech.
Mr. BRAMSTON rose to second the address—Sir, if my
Noble Friend found it necessary to appeal to the indulgence
of the House in addressing to it the observations which he
felt it his duty to make when proposing the address to
the Throne, how much greater must not my demand be, when
I throw myself upon the kindness of my Honourable Friends,
especially as I am but a few weeks after my election, and this
is the first occasion on which I have addressed the House.
I assure you that it is with no common feelings of embar-
rassment that I find myself called upon to address you ;
but I am so far relieved, that the observations which it might
be my duty to offer are curtailed, because my Noble
Friend has already gone over every topic mentioned
in the speech from the Throne. Sir, in the motion for an
address to the Throne, in return for his Majesty's most gra-
cious Speech, I think there are many subjects upon which all
sides must agree. lam sure that all sides must agree in re-
turning our most cordial thanks to his Majesty for having so
promptly met the difficulties in which both Houses of Parlia-
ment were placed by the late calamitous fire. Our gratitude
is also due to his Majesty for having called us together
so soon after our elections, and relieving the Public mind of
that anxiety which all must feel, in knowing why his Majesty,
in the undoubted exercise of prerogative--( Cheers from the
Opposition)---dismissed the late Government and called other
men to his councils to direct the great and important measures,
which the country demands.—(Cheers.) There are other
subjects on which all must agree in thanking our Sovereign,
especially for that which religion dictated, and humanity
prompted—the abolition of negro slavery iii the West Indies.
I am sure, Sir, that all will agree with me in the satisfaction
which must be experienced from the assurances which his Ma-
jesty has received from all foreign States of their anxiety to pre-
vent any interruption to that greatest of blessings, public peace.
Peace is at all times desirable, and there is no question
that it is particularly so at the present moment, in order that
the attention of this House-should not be directed abroad, when
it has so many important measures to consider at home.
His Majesty has also directed the attention of this House to the
strict economy which has been observed in every department
of the State expenditure—at the present period more
particularly the estimates have been framed upon a lower
scale than at any time since the conclusion of the war.
Allusion has also been made to the difficulties under which the
agricultural interests labour.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") A
short time since, in August, 1833, the agricultural interests were
considered to be at so low an ebb, that a Committee was
appointed to consider both the cause of the depression, and
how it might be remedied. At that time the average price of
wheat was 545. the quarter ; and in the following year,
1834, his Majesty had occasion in the Speech from the
Throne, to allude to the general distress that prevailed
in that most important interest, and to express his gracious
sympathy in that distress. If we find that at that time, when
the average price was somewhat about 425. a quarter, and
now that the average price is only 455., we must respectfully
hope that the case of the British agriculturists will be taken
into serious consideration. It is evident from the attention
which has been paid to this subject, that the distress has not
been at all exaggerated, but on the contrary it has been
encreasing on us.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") The attention
of his Majesty has been again called to this subject, and I do
hope that it will receive from the hands of his Majesty's Go..
vernment some extensive remedy for the depression under
which it at present labours.—( Hear.) I trust that some ex-
tensive measure of relief will be brought forward,--( Hear. )
Of all the various measures that called the attention of this
House during the last Session of Parliament, the most im-
portant was the question of Irish Tithes. As, however, that
question has already undergone long discussions in this House,
I will not allude more particularly to it at present. All I will
say is, that I view with the greatest pleasure the prospect of a
commutation of Tithes It is a subject the expediency of which
is admitted on all hands, and the only question is as to its
extent. It is a strong proof of the honesty and impartiality of
the present Government, that they have waited for the report
of the Commissioners that were appointed by their pre-
decessor:—it undoubtedly shows an intention on their
part to act fairly.—( Hear, hear, and cheering.) When I
look at the subjects to which our attention has been drawn
by his Majesty, I feel a confidence that they afford just
cc-rounds of hope to the country. I will not detain the House
iVith any further observations; all I will add is that if his
Majesty's Uovernment act honestly and fairly iiipor.ithe princi-
ples contained in his Majesty's most Gracious. Speech-
-( Hear)--I shall consider myself bound, both in duty to this
House, and to my constituents, to give them my humble
inkio4; Cheers.) I will conclude by seconding the motion,
The Addre,s4 wig then read from the chair. After it had
been read,

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there would be much room for criticism, still less for positive
S'rpoLr'elaokrldebrl3,Mio:PßpoorPsdiEitniToanri; times of difficulty I do not know that
itive
opposition in the gracious speech we have this day heard from the
drone, but so far from being ordinary, they are such special
circumstances and times, that on behalf of those for whom
we are assembled--and I think I can speak for the
large bulk of my cionstituenta-,they 09r30t that We shall
not confine onrselves to the fonnalities and courtesies
et' ftu ordinary period, which would be perhaps more congenial
to our ,dispositions, but that we should express ourselves in
language calm, respectful, and not 10 be misunderstood—( Great
cheering); that we shOtild sty te the Impression which the
present state of affairs excites in our minds, and that we
should convey them in the accredited and accustomed
fognner to the foot of the Throne.—(Great cheering.)—
In venturing tq Ovo this assertion, I am far from saying that
his Majesty's most graciOP gipeeoh, or the Address %I hich has
been moved by my Noble Friend, whntla no man oan know
.iYithout esteeming, are more vague than such documents arc
n general. The Speech from the Throne and the Address;
do not, I must say, contain much matter to give high satisfac-
tion to all those who colyibina with 4 Hired attachment to the
institutions of their country, a firm desire to see them
purified and reformed from all their remaining eorrup-
ii9PS and imperfections.—( Cheers.) The speech lays
peculiar sops:: Q the state of the Church Establishment,
of England. I can assure my Noble Friend that I shall go
along with him on this occasion.__( Hear, hear.) I should
be anxious to receive from him, or from any Administra,
t Jon,
any
‘"b" T 01° be
- • ,", . YY •
advantageous, with a sincere wish to adapt them to the best
interests pf the country and religion. Still I cannot dissemble
my opinion, that I tbilik we might at the same time have ex-
pected, whether considerations nn the nature' of its inter*
o ganization or more recent circumstances might not have been
proposed to the House. We might have expected some more direct
;;!!:# ion to its bearings with the Church of Ireland—( Cheers
from the opposition),-,to its bearings on the condition of that
much injured and harassed country. Ido not mean that I
would invite the House to enter into any specific detail, or

any specific plan on that most arduous subject, but I think
that we ought certainly to know that it does not escape cur
notice.—( Cheers.) His Majesty has adverted to the state of
the Committee now sitting on Corporation abuses. It is gra-
tifying to me that this has beer, adverted to, because I
the country feels a deep interest in this most important inquir7.
But it is desirable that we should have something beyond the
bare intimation that the Commission is in progress, and, thy;
its labours would be soon laid before us. The country wit
require to know something of the principle upon which i
is intended to act in legislating upon this subject, and, a,
it appears to me, which should guide the Administration.
upon a question so notorious in its general features, the pri. -
ciple of having the funds under the control of and admit,
stered by the people, for whose benefit Corporations were first
instituted.--( Cheers.) His Majesty has been graciously pleased
to notice the claims of the Protestant Dissenters, and in ac-
knowledging this mark of his Majesty's condescension, I own I
am anxious that it should not be inferred that this House sup
poses those grievances to be limited to the sole question of
marriage.—( Cheers.) My Noble Friend in his speech made
the concession that other points--church-rates, perhaps--
might be included in the Ministerial mind. But these items are
not, as they should be, in the record. Now with respect to these
and other topics of concession and subjects of reform, while we
gratefully acknowledge the notice which we are assures'
will be bestowed upon them, I own it is difficult to
look back upon events which have occurred since the
last time the Parliament assembled in Westminster, with-
out expressing a wish that some less doubtful language ha(
been used, and some more substantial reforms had beet
promised to the country. I should like that some assuranc
of measures of real amelioration had been given to the people.
and that they should find, though the Tories ware in office,
we would no longer have Tories in power.--( Cheers. )
Now, Sir, I do not think either that the events themselves to
which I have thus cursorily alluded are entitled to dismissal
without some slight remark. I have not to remind an audienct
like this of the nature and character of those events. Hi:
Majesty, in the exercise of his undoubted prerogative, wa,
pleased to dismiss the Government of which Lord Melbourne
was at the head. No one admits the lawful exercise of that
high prerogative with more entire deference than I do ; nor
will I be more slow, though perhaps in point of form I may be
less correct, in stating my sincere belief that his Majesty is in-
capable of exercising it but with the most upright and single.
hearted intention to promote the true interests of his people
—( Hear, hear.) But, Sir, with that earnest and equal assur-
ance, ask whether any one within these walls will deny the
right of this House to call in judgment, not the inhe-
rent and unalienable right of the King of these realms
but this particular exercise of it, so far as it accepts, or
as it rejects, the measures or the administration of them
servants of the Crown, and therefore servants of the people
also, to whom his Majesty has confided the conditional super-
intendence of the national affairs ?—( Hear, hoar.) My Noble
Friend seemed to wish to infer that one of the new claims put
forward on behalf of the Reform Bill is, that it is to lodge with
the people the power of deciding who the Ministers of the
Crown are to be. Sir, I humbly submit that in this respect
the Reform Bill has niade no difference whatever ; but whe-
ther before or after the passing of the Reform Bill, the power
must reside with this House—and through this House,
with 'the people of this country—of deciding who the
Ministers of the Crown are to be.--(Tremendous cheers.)
With the causes of the dismissal of the late Government
it is yet reserved for us to become acquainted, and of
course it would be premature to pronounce any opinion
upon them. Even a curiosity, much more lively than
that which my Noble Friend has professed upon the sub-
ject, must, I think, have found it very difficult to ob-
tain any gratification. We know, Sir, that the late Ad-
ministration was one of very recent appointment ; we know
that it commanded, to an unprecedented degree, even by the
admission of its political opponents, the confidence of the
late House of Commons; we know that it was in a time of
complete tranquillity—of comparative and of growing pros-
perity—that that Administration was dismissed—
" It was not in the battle—
No tempest gave the shock."
With the causes of that dismissal, then, we hope yet to become
acquainted ; and with, them we may have to discuss the re-
sponsibility of its removal.—( Great cheering.) Sure only I
am that it does not lie with our constitutional Sovereign.
Sir, these causes themselves would, at first sight, appear to
have been of a very grave nature indeed, for instead of the
usual courtesy of allowing the dismissed occupants of places
to retain them until the appointment of their successors—
(continued cheering)—there came that most unusual, and,
I must add, most unseemly huddling of offices in the
single person of the Duke of Wellington.—( Protracted cheer-
ing.) Of that Noble Duke, lam not disposed to speak,
but with that deference which is due to his imperishable re-
nown ; but, at the same time, with that freedom which his
superintendence of the civil and political affairs of this country
demand from every Citizen.—( Cheers.) I raise no hypo-
critical pretence that danger was near during that superinten-
lence—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side)—but I ask, is
it a precedent that ought not to be noticed, and may be follow-
ed ?—( Cheers.) What harm may not be done, owing to
the regularity and order in which every thing was left by the
late Administration ?--( Laughter from the Ministerial side, and
cheers from the Opposition.) And if I wanted any confirma-
tion that everything was left in order and regularity, the
Speech from the Throne, corroborating and approving
of, in every part, all the acts of the late Government, and
containing nothing but a proof that no change is meditated by
the present Administration, would supply that confirmation.
It announces that they only intend to pursue the steps of their
predecessors in office, and that nothing is to be changed
either at home or abroad. But if that regularity and order had
not existed, and a Continental war had been proclaimed—or if
the liberation of the negroes had caused an insurrection in
the Colonies, as was prophecied by certain Conservative
publications--if in Ireland a recurrence of those disturbances
had taken place, and that irritation had been extended which
before prevailed, what single shoulder, I ask, could suffice for
such great responsibility?--( Cheers from the Opposition.)
Hardly an old Whig of the old school, notwithstanding the sar-
castic allusions of the Noble Lord to their fondness for place_
whose hair would not stand on end at the assumption of such
power by an individual.—( Cheers from the Opposition.)
However, Sir, at last came the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Excite.
quer, and in mentioning that Right Hon. Baronet, I am the last person
to do injustice either to his consummate talents, or to what I believe to
be his high and honest aspirations to be of use to his country. my
only ground of difference with him is, that from the principles he has
maintained through life, and from the associates with whom he is sur.
rounded in office---(Tremendous cheering, which lasted for a consi-
derable time)—he has put himself in a situation—l do not say (heaven
forbid that I should be guilty of the absurdity) of eternal exclusion!
from the public service—for who can answer for an altered state of
things, and the modification of political circumstances ?—but I do say,
that he seems to me, at the present time, to have put himself at vari-
ance with the political inclinations of his countrymen.—(Cheers.) But,
Sir, what we have to deal with are his acts.—(Cheers from the Ministe.
rial benches.) What was the Right Hon. Baronet's overt act ? The
di,solution of the late Parliament.—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I propose that
we should respectfully state to his Majesty our disapprobation of that
dissolution. What misdemeanours had that Parliament committed.
It cherished a spirit of loyal attachment to the Crown—it had exhi-
bited a most inviolate adherence to the maintenance of the public
credit—it had enforced economy—it had abolished slavery—true, it had
manifested a desire to facilitate the admission of Dissenters into the
Universities—(Cheers)—and it had shown symptoms of an inclination
to accommodate the secular dimensions of the Irish Church to the
spiritual exigencies of its flocks.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, that Parliament
was dismissed in the middle of the recess, pending no collision with the
other House of Parliament, after no hostile vote against any Adminis-
tration ; and while affairs of the greatest moment were still pending, this
Parliament, by the enemies of short Parliaments, was thus unceremo-
niously dismissed and cashiered.—(Renewed cheers.) Now, have we
any precedent for inserting in an Address to the Throne an ex-
pression of our disapprobation of a preceding dissolution ? I find that
when the new Parliament met in the year 1784, the speech from the
Throne conveyed an approbation of the preceding dissolution. This
was, naturally enough, objected to by Mr. Fox, and was made the sub-
j .ct of an amendment; but it was stated in reply by Mr. Pitt that he
wi.s not for purchasing a hollow unanimity by blinking a great Consti_
tutional question, and passing over the dissolution of the last Parliament,
when it was clearly established that it had given the most entire satis-
faction throughout the kingdom. His Majesty's Ministers have not
teen hardy enough on the present occasion to insert in the Speech from
Ihe Throne any intimation that the dissolution of the last Parliament has
given the most entire satisfaction throughout the country; but all who
draw directly the contrary inference have at least as much right to say in
1835, as Mr. Pitt said in 1784, that we are "not for purchasing a
hollow unanimity by blinking a great constitutional question, and pass-
ing over the dissolution of the late Parliament," when we believe that
it gave the contrary of satisfaction throughout the kingdom.—(Cheers.)
In making these remarks upon the points which come fairly and openly
before our notice, I have pursued that line of conduct which I thought
myself imperatively called upon to adopt. I have no wish to trespass
further upon the time of the House by making comments upon points
hieh are not now laid) developed, and must be cautious in allowing
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from. the argument of my Noble Friendem is this--I fear the
irtnil'orreeon—enfidence reposed or apparently so, in his Majesty's present ad-
visers by some'statesmen on the Continent is exhibited by those who, so
ti,st.a4,.Eirptc:i,feoair
metraabitsBtaeifnientilefrom, have a constant itch for interfering in, the in..
7 and freer States.—(Cheers.) My Noble Friend
bas asked whether the friends of Lord Grey's Government--of whom
I profess myself to havt i.teen one of the most steady and sincere—can
bear to join ;
any project which they, in common with my Noble
friend, have often reprobated, and still continue to reprobate? I only
ask my Noble Friend to wait until we have incurred the guilt of deser.
Lion from our principles before he brands us with his mark.—(Renewed
cheering,) Ido not affect to conceal that I think there are perplexing
and embarrassing circumstances in which, turn what way we will, we
seem to be involved; it is some gratification to me to believe that they
are not my own, political friends who have mainly involved us in them
--(loud cheers)—and it is a further gratification to feel assured that
even under all the difficulties and exciting scenes through which
the people of this country have passed, it has been demonstrated
that there is neither hostility nor indifference to any of our really
valuable, venerable, and moral institutions, to the constitutional
Throne, or the honoured person of our Sovereign ; to the maintenance
of order, or to the rights of property—or, at least, that none such is to be
found in any intelligent or prominent class of the community.—(Loud
cheers.) There is, however, a keen and irresistible demand for the re-
brination of all abuses, and a proportionate call upon all these who wish
to represent the opinion of their constituents, to hold fast to the princi.
pies which won their original support, and to reassure them that though
Parliamthough Aebnnedtdinesiosiomr:hich they trusted may, have been dissolved, and al.
rations, of which, upon the whole, they approved, may
nalliisstsed, those principles still live and flourish ; that they
ctrl not
asserrtoemzed ; that they will be imperishably laid down, un.
and consistently acted upon.—(Prolonged che: r-
ing.)under this view, Sir, thinking that something is due from
IlnitgeilsYlate Parliament—something to the late Government—much
tL.losesittto;tti
opioious
,41,0
wishes of our constituents—much to the un-
changing interests of justice, fidelity, and honour, that, not eager
far the station, I have not declined to come forward on this occa-
.:on.—(l-oud cheering.) i mpg leave the ikstke in the hands of
he House, merely adding my htlinble hope that all we plan,
and all we execute, may be so over-ruled as to promote time
r..al and lasting welfare of the country.—(continued cheering.) I

have now, Sir, the honour of proposing an amendment. It is not my
wish to omit any portion'of the Address which has been moved by my
Noble Friend, inasmuch as I believe it pledges us nothing to which we
can conscientiously object----(A laugh from the Opposition)—but as I
think we wish for some more marked demonstration of opinion, I :en
desirous to move that after the words " To promote the concord and
happiness of my subjects," in the last paragraph but two, these wor
be inserted :—(For which see our Leading Article.)
The reading of this amendment, which had been frequently inter.
rupted by the applause of the House, was followed by loud and gene-
ral cheering.
Mr. BANNERMAN rose to second the amendment. Regretting
as he did, the late dissolution, he could not help saying, that so far as hi
was personally concerned, he should not care if another took place to-
morrow, unless, indeed, it might tend to endanger the peace, prosperity,
and happiness of the eountry. He trusted therefore that he should not
be accused of any factious motives in supporting the amendment of the
Noble Lord, and giving any opposition he might think it necessary to
offer to the present Government.—(Cheers,) As a Scotch representa-
tive he would say—and in so doing he felt certain he should be
fully borne out by a large majority of his Honourable Colleagues
in that House—that his countrymen felt that they owed
a deep debt of gratitude to those Englishmen and Irish-
men who had so nobly fought the battle of Reform, and given to
Scotland its present political existence. They would ill repay that debt
of gratitude if they did not cordially form an alliance—unholy as the
Noble Lord opposite might consider it—for the purpose of endeavouring
to procure those reforms which lie (Mr. Bannerman) was quite sure the
late Gov( rnment would have granted, and which he was pretty certain
the present
.Government had no intention whatever of conceding—
',Cheers.) There were, he knew, some members on that (the Opposition;
side of the House, who might consider that the amendment savoured
rather too much of a milk and water nature. When it was put into hi,
(Mr. Bannerman's) hands a few minutes ago, he certainly was under
3 similar impression ; a little reflection, however, convinced him that
he was in the wrong, for he considered it the duty of the representarivee
of the people to banish all political prejudices, and to consult only the be_
nefit anti welfare of their common country—(Hear.) He felt bound to sae
that he could repose no constitutional confidence in his Majestys
present Ministry, and he hoped they would excuse this saying
that he should he highly gratified to see them dismissed as
inceremoniously as their predecessors in office had been.—(Cheers, anti
laughter.) There was one point,to which, as a Scotch representative.
oe felt peculiarly desirous to call the attention of the House—he meant
municipal reforin.—(Hear.) He trusted the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
Robert Peel) would inform the House during the course of the debate
whether he was inclined to vest the election of English corporators in
10/. householders in the same way as in Scotland He could assure the
Right Hon. Baronet that nothing short of this alteration would satisfy
the country.
The amendment having been read,
Mr. PEMBERTON proceeded tin address the House. He so entirely
‘oncurreci in the opinion avowed by the Hon. Gentleman who had se_. mtled the amendment, that mt savoured a little of milk and water, that
me really should not have felt it necessary to make any observations
ninon it, did he not feel, in common, he imagined, with every Hon,
slumber resent, that its real purport was not to express particular sets_
ements to the Clown, not to avow particular opinions, but to give the
reference to the late Government in opposition to the present. If it
,ere made a ground of objection to the Speech from the Throne, that it
vas vague and unsatisfactory, he cou Id only say that the amendment was
.qually so. Considering the quarter whence that Amendment ems_
tat d, and the individuals by wdom it was supported, he could not but
pink thet the topics it omitted to notice were more important than
hose on which it expatiated There were individuals on the other
ide of the House who were known to entertain opinions with respect to
he maintenance or dissolution of the Union at variance with those
f the great majority of the House. He should have thought, then,
hat those who proposed and supported the Amendment would have
endeavoured to guard themselves against the possibility of being sup_
nosed to concur in the opinions entertained by those who aided and as_
:fisted them on the present occasion. The Noble Lo -d (Morpeth) had
old them that he was quite at a loss to imagine the causes which had
ed to the dissolution of the late Government, and he entirely concur-
:est inn thebehef expressed by that Noble Lord that all the circumstances
Mich led to their dismissal must, sooner or later, be made known.
-Ic confessed, however—knowing only what was km wn to the public
;enerally—that he did not feel that utter ignorance of those
•auses which the Noble Lord had avowed.—(Hear, hear.) Look.
ng to the constitution of that Ministry, and to the sentiments
known to be entertained by its members, he (Mr. Pemberton)
could not help thinking that that Ministry fell from internal disunion.
Independently of even these considerations, when he recollected the
evere losses Lord Grey's Government had sustained, and that Lord
althorp's removal to the House of Lords occasioned a vacancy in two
nost important offices—Chancellor of the Exchequer and Leader of the
louse—he could not much wonder that at tire end there were not more
:ham two orthree of the original members of Lord Grey's Government
.emaining. Of the gentleman who composed that Cabinet he would
sish to speak with all possible respect, but he could not do so great a
iolence to his own feelings as to say that he thought they possessed
esfficient weight either with the house or the country no enable them
o carry on the Gos eminent without assistance. Veith reference to the
Ormation of the new Government, the Noble L rd (Nlorpeth) had
.omplained of the unconstitutional conduct of the Duke of Welling.
ton in assuming all the c ffices of State, and from the cheers with which
he remark was received, he (Mr. Pemberton) presumed it was sn ac-
.ordance with the opinions of a large portion of the House.—(Hear,
'mean) It seemed to him that before they came to any conclusion 011
that point, they ought, in fairness, to take into considerations the pecu-
liar circumstances in which his Grace was placed. He believed that
:hen the dismissal of the late Administration took place, there were ;
rot a few persons both in Parliament and the country who would have
meets well disposed to have seen many of the Members of that Govern_
neat associated with many of the Members of the present, and that an
agreement should have been made by which the proceedings of the
Movement" party should have been arrested, and that a liberal, but at
-he same time Conservative Government, should have been constituted
—(Laughter from the Reformers.) But was any opportunity allowed
Oy the late Government for effecting that association of parties? Hal
eentlemen forgotten the mode in vshicheafter that dismissal had tak.
dace, it was announced to the public ?—(Hear from the Ministerial
tenches.) He should have thought, after Lord Melbourne received his
dismissal, a feeling of :delicacy towards his Sovereign, and a come_
leration of what was due to himself, to his colleagues, anti to his
country, would have required that some interval should have been al_
lowed during which the King might have had an opportunity of con-
sulting with hint (Lord Melbourne), and he himself might have had an
.qual opportunity of advising his Majesty as to any ulterior measures;
Ind that some opportunity might have been afforded tor providing for
he public service, so as to have prevented that event of which the No_
ble Mover of the amendment had so loudly complained, and which he
mad been pleased to designate as an unconstitutional assumption of all
he offices in the State by the Duke of Wellington.—(Cheers from Mo
-misters.) But if gentlemen would refer to the public records of that
time, they would find that it was on Friday night, the 14th November
ast, that Lord Melbourne arrived in town after having received his diss
missal, and that he bore with him a summons to the Duke of Welting_
rn to attend his Majesty, and which summons was not received by the
N'oble Duke at Strathfieldsay till the Saturday morning. Lord Mel.
:ounce having summoned a Cabinet Council for twelve o'clock on that
Say, for the purpose, he (Mr. Pemberton) presumed, to receive from line
Noble Vise. a communication of the dismissal of his Administration. Now
elicit took place in the interval? A manifesto was put forth, not only an.
:mounting to the public the dismissal of Ministers, but accompanying that
announcement with two statements which he conceived were notoriously
intrue.—(Cheers and laughter.) Both of these statements, in his opi.
,ion, were not only untrue, but extremely mischievous in their nature.
One of these statements Was, that the dismissal of Lord Melbourne's
Administration was owing to the Queen—this was stated in so many
s ords. The other statement was equally untrue, and in its tendency
still more mischievous—namely, that the Duke of Wellington had al-
ready been to the King. Now, time author of these statements must,
ons their very terms, have been a Cabinet Minister, and being so, he
oust have known, that so far from the Duke of Wellington having at
`hat time been to the King, he had not even received the summons to at.
nd his Majesty.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) I rejoice inn
achieving, from what I have seen, that that most indecent and improper
enceeding was not adopted with the concurrence of Viscount M,l.
murne's Cabinet, but that, on the contrary, many Members of that
Cabinet were actually ignorant of the fact of their dismissal, till they
read the statement in the nev.spapers. He (Mr, Pemberton) sincerely be.
tiered that there was not one among the Hon. Gentlemen whom Inc
iw before him, of any shade or colour of opinion, that would,
it' called upon under such circumstances, have given any other ad_
:ice to the King than what the Duke of Wellingtcan had done;
but of all men in England, was the Duke of Wellington bound, by those
still stronger ties which his great and solid services to his country con-
stituted, to give that advice. He did accept the supreme power in the
,fate ; but for what purpose did he so redeye it ? Why, to hold it as a
; mcred deposit, only until he could place it into those hands in which It
vas now intrusted.—(Laughter from the Reformers, and cheers from
slinisters.) Such was the conduct of that man who had, nevertheless,
men accused of ambitiously aiming to attain the power of a Mayor of
rime Palace ;—an accusation made by those mob-orators of the metres dalis, who, under the good providence of God, owe to him
"rat they had now a free country left thcio in which
r,n agitate such a question.—(Hear and cheers from the Minns.
erial benches.) NN hen he (Mr. Pemberton') looked at the formation of I
tine present Government, he could not help confessing that he beheld
me or two things upon which he should be glad to have some expla-
eation. No doubt his Right Honourable Friend, jthe Chancellor of the
.:xchequer) would at a fitting time be reas4 to afford that explanation.
-nquestionably many names were went from the list of that Admi-
..istration which he (Mr. Ppnalsesseee, would gladly have seen there.
co man who respected inteartty and honour ins public and private life;
tm man who ri,spected the lofty in station,and the still loftier in abilities;
no man who was desirous of seeing in a Minister a regard of popular
rights and liberal institutions, united with a firm attachment to
the institutions of the country in Church end State—an attach_
cent which was hereditary in the h',065 of Derby, could fail to
regret the abseuee of such a 11
could fail to foel regret th ^-
—oe from the present administration—
name had not 0' -•
the distinguished individual who bore that
services himself at liberty to render to his country those
...tell his great talents so eminently qualified him to disch:drge.
_sec no complaint on that score could be cast upon his `_tight Hon.
S'riend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). There wasSio impressment
f -nen into the civil service of the State. It was notorious that the
Seble Lord (Stanley) was invited to joins the Government, and he (Mr.
.teinberton) never supposed or heard that anything either ins the terms
-r mode in which that invitation was made, was inconsistent with the
:nigh character of the individual who made, or the individual who re.
:'used it. Ile could not, however, but believe that in the present state
f affairs the Government of this country must rest tor support more upon
the character of its measures than upon the Parliamentary talents of its
:In embers. It had been said that it was impossible for any Administration,
numbers of which were opposed to the Reform Bill, to carry on the
gsvernment of this country. He confessed himself at a loss to under.
stuid this mode of reasoning. lie was aware that there were some who
thought it not an advantage, not a recommendation, but directly the
reverse, that the present Government possessed in a greater'degree than
the last the confidence of time other branch of the Legislature. He knew
ml ere were many who would consider it the strongest recommendation
of any measure, that it should produce that collision which should
end in the destruction of that branch.—.(Hear, hear.) He would
duly add. that it was his most earnest wish, whoever was
sinister, that we should, at least, have a permanent and
rattled Administration; a Government which would maintains undis-
solved and indissoluble the unions of the empire ; a Government which
would maintain unimpaired the full enjoyment of all the constitutional
dr.vileges of King, Lords, and Commons ; a Government which, while
it carried on improvement with a firm and steady hand through the
various establishments, civil and ecclesiastical, in the country, would at
time same time maintain order, and enforce the aothority of the laws,
t) bout which order could not exist, nor could there be encouragement
to industry or protection to prosperity.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HWART most cordially agreed with the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who had just-addressed the House, that it was impossible for
any Government to continue long in power that would not conduct the
public affairs in accordance with the principles of Reform; and he most
oncerely united with him in thinking that the Government of this
country must in future be open to men of all parties. lie was much
estonished that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, himself a
! awyer, should have so manifestly violated one doctrine of the British
law, by having presumed a man to be guilty before he was tried.
"1 he Hon. and Learned Gentleman made that presumption against the
eitehourne Administration. He said it contained elements of difference,
:arid that it was on that ground just and right to dissolve it. The Hon.
d Learned Gentleman had also alluded to differences of opinion
..,.isting on the opposition side of the House. But much differences
wore inseparable from all opposition : nor did ;le think that tine present
.mlinistry were the most harmonious Cabinet that ever existed, although
t at seemed to tee a sine qua nun with the Hons. and Learned Gentle.
man in the construction of an opposition ; for were not souse of its mem.

" Sirenum votes et Circes pocula nosti."
He trusted that they would decline accepting the flattering draught
with which his Noble Friend and the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man had so endeavoured to entrap their senses. It had been said that
it was impossible that the House could determine on municipal reform
before the report of the Commissioners bad been received. But the
Ministers might have stated the principles of that Reform. The Right
Honourable Baronet might have so far raised the veil of mystery, as to
have told the House that he would give municipal reform on the princis
pies of representation and of publicity, without which it was impossible
that any Reform could subsist. It had also been stated that the present
Administration had adopted Earl Grey's measures for the relief of the
Dissenters; but that was most unfortunate, for if any one thing did a
more decided injury to Earl Grey's Government than another, it was
because the Bills brought in relating to the Dissenters were not ade.
quate to effect their objects, for this irresistible reason—that they were
not just. He lamented that his Noble Colleague should have been
reduced to the necessity of seeking for such an apology for the Speech
from the Throne as he did. His (Mr. Ewart's) Noble Colleague had
stated that hi 3 opinions had been approved of by a large constituency,
at least that the result of their votes had been much in his favour. The
Noble Lord had unquestionably had a majority, but it was a majority of
vistas, and not of public voices.—(Cheers.)
Mr. RICHARDS claimed the indulgence of the House while he
stated the ground of his vote in favour of the Address.—(Laughter.)
In
saying that he would vote for the Address, he did not mean to say that
he very widely differed from the Noble ',old who proposed the amend.
ment.—(Laughter from the Reformers.) He, however, begged to say,
that circumstances altered cases. Did he not see, and that undoubtedly
arising from circumstances—(laughter)—a sort of millenium, where the
lion and the lamb were lying down together ?—(Lotel laughter and
cheers.) The question at this moment most deserving the attention of
that House was, what would be the consequence of rejecting the Ads
dress, and adopting the Amendment He saw that the object of the
Amendment was, if possible, to occasion the dismissal of his Majesty':
Government.—(Cheers from the Opposition, echoed back by the Minis.
ters.) Feeling that such dismissal, in the present'state of political par-
ties, would be injurious in the highest degree, he came forward in spite
of obloquy to oppose that Amendment. He had said that circum-
stances altered cases—(laughter;—:end although the expression might
create a smile among Hots. Gentlemen, yet he could not forget that
many whom he now saw were not long ago in political hostility towards
each other. He did not censure them for being now in harmonious,
concord—(laughter)—but he belonged to no party—Whig nor Tory;
but to his country; and he felt bound to act in that manner which would
best conduce to the happiness and safety of the people. No man would
ocery that the present Ministry was composed of men of the highest,
honesty, integrity, and talent.
Mr. GROTE could not consent, Reformer as he was, to look for a
Ministry in the ranks of those who were and ever had been much more
opposed to Reform than any other party of their day. He could not
agree with the Hon. Gentleman, that carrying the amendment would
contribute to the removal of the present Ministers. But having often
expressed regret at the dismissal of Len! Melbourne's Administration,
and having, throughout a large constituency, met with an uniformity of
sympathy, with that feeling he could not refrain from expresssing it in
this House, and from adding, without meatiieg any discourtesy, that if
his vote would Isaac the effect of removing the present Governmene he
soould consider it an additional reason ton giving it.—(Cheersd The
.amendment went to this. It complained that the Melbourne dgidied.d
teatime which had the confidence of the country, and
several reforms, had beets dismissed, and that therefie contemplated
in se the country
likely to be disappointed of those improvements 'arhich were so ardently
was
desired. The second Reformed Parliament, should certainly. and he
hoped would, go at least as far in its desire for Reform as the first
Reformed Parliament.—(Cries Hear, hear, hear.) This was a
Speech, however, which, if coining, if it had come, from a Ministry in
which he (Mr. Grote) had the fullest confidence, would not give him
satisfaction ; but coming as it did from a Ministry in which he had no
confidence at all, was still more to be objected to. Its defects really
needed to be supplied tiy an amendment at least as full and as strong as
that proposed by the Noble Lord, and lie had no hesitation in saying
that he himself would be inclined to make the amendment still fuller
and stronger.—(Cheers.) lie could not but be surprised at the line of
argument pursued by the Noble Lord, the member for Liverpool, in
comparing Earl Grey's Administration to the present Government in
his opinion the Government of Lord Grey was never equalled by any
Goverment which preceded it.—(Hear, hear.) It was the first Admi-
nistration which openly approved of and acted upon the principle of re-
form. It was the first Government which looked into our institutions
for the purpose of improving them, and never touched them but it
left them better than it found them. The Noble Lord who moved
the adoption of the Address, has been pleased to make several re-
marks as to the ardent spirits now abroad, and the restless and
morbid desire of change which existed among the people He
(Mr. Grote), for his part, was in daily intercourse with a large por-
tion of the numerous constituency' which he had the honour to repre-
sent, as well as with others throughout the country, and Ise could not
discover any such morbid desire for change amond, the people.—(Hear,
hear.) But though there was no morbid desire,
for change, he acknow-
!edged that he found a ve. y strong wish fee the improvement of the in-
stitutions of the country to exist airing them.—(Cheers.) There was.
sso wish, however, to get rid of the valuable parts of our institutions.
There was nothing in their wishes which menaced the stability of
the social order.—(Hear, hear.) There was nothing inconsistent with
the continuance of all parts of the law, and all the restraints which
the well regulation of the community require.—(Hear, hear.) Who.
ever asserted the contrary was guilty of calumny upon the body of
the people. Ile could not but think that those who introduced the
name of the Monarch into a discussion of this nature, and who,
when they were asked to defend the dismissal of a ministry whiels
mid had the confidence of the Parliament and of the ementry,
answered by a reference to the King's prerogative, acted in.
judiciously; and, indeed, a measure which requires; to be
defended upon such a ground must be injudicious.—(Haa, hear.) Of
this, at all events lie was sure, that if all changes iP. the King's Minis-
ters were to be answered by referring to the Peerogative of the King,
questioned. He had little.
the prerogative itself would soon come to be
more to add, but that he would give hi', vote and cordial support to the
amendment.—(Cheers.]
Mr. GLADSTONE coldd not believe that the amendment could
be successful; but it' were, and if it were followed by St;ifl stronger re.
solutions leCla".:icry of the want of confidence which, the House felt
in hid 11...ajesty's present Ministers, what would oil these resolutions
Mule to? If the late Government were to return to power, who
would support them i Certainly not the Hon. Gentleman on that (the
Ministerial) side of the House.—(Cries of " No, no," and a laugh)-
els a very few on the other side--Hear, hear)—and as to their being
atoported by the people, he was satisfied that would not be the case—at
least, certainly not by the rational part of the community—while they
acted upon principles which had been declared by an Honourable
-stember to be incompatible with the existence of the Monarchy. They
had repeatedly been told, in the course of the debate, that the Melbcurne
Administration was dismissed without a fair trial. They had been tried
on the question of Irish tithes ; the Coercion Illille—(Loud cries of
No,
no !" and laughter)—and these were quite sufficient for the country ;
and he begged the House to remember, that many who now sat on the
Opposition benches had declared that they had no confidence in the late,
Government.
Mr. POULTEIt observed, that without the slightest personal hostilAe
0 the present Administration, and without even a personal acqu
4.1110ce
oce with the members of the last, he was at a loss to and
11 sw the carrying into effect just measures of hidprovementerstand
be
could safely intrusted to those who had irdgaidably de.
Glared themselves the strong and conscientious ens
benefits to be re_
of reform
•
---,Cheers.) Hu could only judge of the probable
c_ived by the country from its present Ministry, by recollections of the
rm
past ; he could not blot out from his memory the language used since
the passing of the Refo Bill, that it was an
been issued to procure that
act which had thrown
mere physical force.
down the great barrier against the predomins„nee of
:s were true, it ought to be
The Honourable Member observed, if chi
?el
repeeled. Every commission which le
specific information which is so n
stigulatizeOocessary to precede important legisla.
as unconstitutional and arbitrary,
tive changes, had be
and compared with the nets of despotic Sovereigns, and the jurisdic-
tion of the Star Chamber—(H.ear, hear)--and, as such, worthy only to
be resisted. Every proposition flowing from the Reform Bill had met
with thesame reception, He observed, that the admission of Dissenters
to Ilse Universities, which many enlightened and good men warmly sup.
ported, was most powerfully resisted here, and defeated elsewhere.
l'he seine ultimate fate attended the Bill for the settlement of the
time question in Ireland upon a fair and equitable basis. He eas.
served that this had been our experience; this was the key Which
NV,tl to unlock the prospects of futurity, and from which aloSie we
coulil form the remotest idea of the probable conduct of the existing
Administration. The Honourable Member observed, that' hese were
the Ministers who were most likely to acknowledge t(aat a man
whose single vote might be the means of returning tveo members to
that House, ought to have some concern in the melsdcipal government
of the city or town in which he lived—(Cheers.) These were the melt
who were to see, under the influence of a new litedit, the vast benefits
likely to be conferred on religion by a commutation of tithes—(Hear,
hear)--by a just law of pluralities—(Hear)—by a deliberate and wise
revision of the whole temporal condition. anti state of the Archbishops
and Bishops of this country—(Heard—by putting an end to translations,
commendams, and the different's:, between a good and bad Bishopric—
:toil by the application, se 10.;,g as the present state of religious opinion
may continue, of the ECdeassastical sinecures of lieland to some great
nstienal purposeeiseud cheers.) But if the present Ministers were to
do all that thed promised, was it not wonderful that every thing these
great Ite'ermers proposed should spring not from any one great principle
of P....:mrm, but merely from the possession of office--(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He did not mean to compare the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Sir R. Peel) to any prince of darkness; but he could not hely
reminding the House of an old couplet—
" When the devil was sick, the devil a saint would be;
When the devil got well, the devil a saint was he."
—(Cheers and laughter.) It was a truly singular feature in the present
crisis of public affairs that a large portion of the most distinguished per-
sons in this kingdom were strongly opposed to that system and course of
public measures, of which others, equally honourable and good. felt
themselves bound to be the wannest and the firmest supporters. He
could only attribute this unfortunate state of things to the fear of
imaginary dangers, which the ultimate issue of these events would
;,rove to have been: without foundation. Without waiting for the
event, it might have been foreseen a priori that the age which.
would be most remarkable for the spirit of just improvement would
also be remarkable for some extravagant speculations.—(Elear.heaeo
When the human mind was excited, it was difficult in all instep ces
to keep it within due bounds. It was a curse incident to the most
beneficial changes, that such changes would be supported an ad-
vocated by those who in every large and populous communicy were
always to be found, the unprincipled and desperate; he would 'not be de.
terred by such considerations—he would put himself upon the intelli-
gent portion of a reflecting people—( Hear, hear)—he wooed go forward
boldly—we were far, very far indeed, from the limits of lemmas) improve.
orient, whose centre was everywhere, and whose eirceenference recedes
indefinitely as mankind ad vances—( Hear, hear.) It this led to destruct tints, lie would take Isis share of the punishment—il it led to prosperity,
he would claim his share of this result : he supported these principles in
that temper and.'spirit in which he should wish to be in the last moments
of his life--(Loud cheers.)
Mr. TREVOR said, that he never could give his consent to Use
Amendment. It was not a question as to policy which was involved in.
it : the proposition was simply this, that. without regard to their policy,
they were determined, at all hazards, to drive the present ministers
from their seats—(cries of" No, no.") The Hon. Member for Middle.
sex had said, that the late Government owed its principal support to the
Right Hon. Baronet now at the head of the Government.
Its. HUME—(-tear, hear.)—When doing mischief —(lsoud laughtesr)
Mr. TREVOR— Well, he should like to know it the Right 'dons
Baronet: would be one of those who would place himself in the ranks of
their supporters if they wet: recalled. For his own part be b.ati little
doubt, that if Ministers were true to the principles contaireee in the
Speech, if they pursued a plaid, straight forward, and !stillest course,
hey would gain strength iss the country day by day.
Colonel SIBTHORPE said that it was quite time to 'get rid of the late
elinistry, when they had been tor two years the laseghing-stock of the
country. He said this without any political bias, for he maintained that
;se was no party man.—(A 1 ugh.) He could rot forget the language
which had been used by a lawyer and a Judge in an address to his con-
stituents—he alluded to the language used by the Hon. and Learned
Member for the Tower hamlets.—(hear, hear.) If the people of Eng-