The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-25 00:00:00

Lord Carbery, Lord Hatherton, the Bishop of London, the
earl of Ripon, Viscount Duncannon, Lord Fitzgerald and
Vescipthe Marquis of Clanricarde, the Marquis of West-
meath, and the Earl of Winchilsea took part.
Lord BROUGHAM should oppose the amendment.
After a few words from Lord LYNDHURST against the
clause, and the Marquis of LANSDOWNE in favour of it, the
question.was put, and
Viscount MELBOURNE having declined to divide the
House, the clause was ne.atived,•and struck out of the Bill.
All the clauses, from 11 to 21, both inclusive, were also
struck out, as consequent upon the tenth clause.
Clauses 22 to 39, both inclusive, were agreed to, with some
verbal amendments.

On clause 40 being proposed, which provides that the average
value of corn should be the standard of value for tithes,

_ __ _
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved that this clause be also
struck out.

The Earl of WICKLOW supported the clause, as bene-
ficial to the landlords.

Viscount MELBOURNE also supported the clause.

The Marquis of WE STMEATHihouId oppose it.
Lord HATHERTON said that it would be a great injus-
tice to the landlords on whom so heavy a burthen as the land
tax was tobe placed, if this clause were omitted.
The Earl of HARR° WB Y supported the motion for strik-
ing out the clause.
After a few words from the Earl of Wicklow, Lord Lynd-
hurst, Lord Plunket, and Lord Ellenborough,
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY put the motion, that the
clause stand part of the Bill.
The Gallery was cleared for a division, and the House di-
vided—

For the motion
For the amendment

Majority for rejecting the clause ...... —9l
On our re-admission into the Gallery we -found the Noble
Chairman putting the suceeediag clauses ieridtith. They
were passed without comment up to clause 60, inclusive.

On clause 61 being put,

The Earl of H ADDINGTON rose to call the earnest and
special attention of the House to the 61st and to the remain-
ing clauses of the Bill, for they appeared to him to he calcu-
lated to aim a. deadly blow at the prosperity and very exist-
ence of the Established Church of Ireland.—( Hear, heats )
The clauses were undoubtedly objectionable to every Noble
Loicrthat felt in the slightest degree attached to the interests
of the Protestant Clergy. The 61st clause enacted that upon
the neat vacancy of the church of any parish in which there
were not more than fifty members of the Established Church
such church might be sequestered. This was the important
clause upon which their Lordships had now to decide.- It
appeared to him that great care had been taken to mix up
the Bishops in the management of the Irish Church as little
as possible, whilst many of the duties imposed on the Com-
missioners ought obviously to devolve upon the Prelates. In
one of the clauses the Commissioners were invested with pow-
ers which ought entirely to be left to the curates. If he were
not hostile to the principle of the Bill he should still think
that the clause (61) now under the decision of the Committee,
had no connection with the previous part of the Bill. He did
not wish to enter upon a discussion of the right of Parlia-
ment to apply the property of Corporations, civil or sacred,
to any purposes which •the Legislature might think fit. He
certainly held that this would be a principle dangerous to all
property, and a principle that never could be entertained
with favour by the Legislature of this country. Let the I4ouse
consider a little what the principle of the. present Bill was.
The great, and leading, and only principle of the Bill was,
that the House might alienate the property of the Established
Church, and apply it to other phrposes. He would withstand
the principle of the Bill in another way. The Bill went on
the principle of numbers, and enacted -that where a certain num-
ber of Protestants were not resident it should be lawful to take
away the property of the Church in that locality. This was ano-
ther principle on which the Bill was founded. The operation
of the Bill was confined to Ireland, but let Noble Lords only
ask themselves if they once could induce themselves to sanc-
tion this Bill whether the principle of it might not be, and
would not be, soon applied to England? Was it impossible
that in England a perish might not be found in which there
might he an overwhelming population of Catholics, although
in the district in whkh the parish was situated the Protestants
might be in a great majority, and yet the present Bill estab-
lished the principle that in such a parish the property of the
Eitabli.j!ed Church rricent be alienated from that Church for
the benefit of the Catholics.--( Hear, hear.) The Bill, it
might be said, applied this principle to parishes in which there
were not morn than fifty Protestants ; but he should like to_
know what magic could be found in the number of fifty ?
Could not the principle be applied to kirger numbers ? Could
it not•eventually be applied to Pari,bei, which contained four
•or five hundred Protestants ? But the Bill carried with it its
temptation to make the population -Catholic in every pariah in
Ireland. 'He understood 'that there were 2,-505 parishes in
Ireland. This Bill, according to the statements made by his
Mltiesty's Ministers, would strike out of existe-nce 860 of those
parishes.- • In Ireland there were 960 parishes, with more than
a hundred Protestants in each. If these were deducted from
the 2,505 paribes, the total number of parishes in which the
Protestant population varied from fifty_to one hundred would
be found to be only from seven to eight hundred. Here
would be the ground of. the nest dret upon the next libe-
rality of Protestants to satisfy these who clamoured for the
destruction of the Protestant Church.— (Hear, hear.) No
wonder,_ then, that the Bill had been received with such
triumphant shouts in another place by the fete who in that
placo were known as the Roman Catholic strength of the
House, and who were headed by the Hon. and Learned
Mfrnber for the City of Dublin.---( Hear, hear.) No wonder
that_the great majority of the Representatives of England and
Wales were against the Bid, and that the Bill bad been car-
ried by a small majority of the Roman Catholics of the other
House.—(Hear, hear.) This was net a state of things that
the people of En;:land would allow to exist. The Bill was
calculated to strike discouragen:et:t into the hearts of the Pro.

testant tarty ha Ireland, end to inspire the enemies of the two
countries with enthusias:ie hopes of triumph. The Bill did not
provide for aa int:rasa:4.A efficiency of the Protestant Church,
hit its object was. to make a surplus fund, for the purpose of
devoting 50„0001. to the miscellaneous education of the Irish
people. He, for one, could not conceive what the Bill had in
common with the Church Temporalities Bill. But the Church
Temporalities Bill had hcen soleatnly declared by Ministers to
be a final measure—(Flear)--and if it had not Leen so de-
clared, it never would have been assented to by that House.
The Bishop of the diocese of London had been induced to
vote for the Bill, solely e.n the (-round that it had been under-
stood to be a fired nicasure.—(Hear, hear.) That Bill had
gone upon the principle of a suppression of benefices where
no worship bad been performed in them for three years, or
rather when the bent-flees were only tied up a, the property
cf the Established Church. The 'present Bill was directly
the reverse. His Friend had said that when he had
farmed the present Government, he had been asked by the
Noble Duke, whether he was pledged to the resolutions on
this sui,ject that lied been come to by the other Hense of
Parliatnent ? His Noble Friend bad said that his'answer was
in the affirmatiVe. Yes, he had been pledged. His Noble
Friend had then added that as the Noble Duke had never
taken any pains to turn him out of offce, lie was called upon
to support his Majesty's Government. Was there ever such
an inconsistency ? Their Lordships were not blind to the
times in which they.lived, they were not disposed to act on
party principles, they were disposed to go as tar as they could
in support of the Government, as long as the Government sup-
ported the Established Church ; and yet, because their Lord-
ships thus proved that they were opposed to measures,- not to
men, they were to be taunted with a factious opposition to his
Majesty's Government. lie had never heard such a charge
brought forth by any Minister of the Crown. The Church
Temporalities Bill was a Bill to encourage the Protestant
Church of Ireland. This Bill went to supersede the Protes-
tant Church Establishment altogether. There could not be a
greater curse to Ireland than any law that encouraged intimi-
dation, and the present Bill would tempt the people of Ireland
to the use of this dreadful weapon. This, in his opinion, was
the most powerful argument against the Bill. An effort had
been made to injure the Church by exaggerated statements of
enormous revenues. Her wealth had been quadrupled, and
the number of her flock greatly diminished ; but at length the
truth had been ascertained, and it was now found that many of '
these statements were delusive while all were exaggerated.
He had no doubt that a more equal distribution of the revenues
of the Church within itself would increase its efficiency, and to
that extent he was willing to go, but no farther. The Noble
Earl concluded by moving the omission of the clause.
Lord GLENELG said, if he asked their Lordships to sup-
port the Bill, he did so net on any ground of misconduct on
the part of the Protestant Clergy, for he professed himself as '
ready as his Noble Friend, or any other Noble Lord, to offer
the fullest testimony to the active virtues of that venerable
body. Whatever they might have been at one period, since
the Union there had been a rapid improvement in the charac-
ter of the Irish Church in connection with its Clergy; and he
would add that at present there could be found in no Church
a greater number of individuals eminent for zeal, piety, and
learning.—( Hear, hear.) But his Noble Friend had not ad-
verted to the subject at issue, which was the state of Ireland,
in connection with the Established Church in that country.
His Noble Friend had charged the Bill as being inconsistent
with itself in the details • but the main object was the same,
and it was identical in all its-parts. Those objects were the
promotion of peace and the establishment of tranquillity in
Ireland--(Hear)-the rescuing the Protestant 'Church from
the dangerous position in which it was placed, and the com-
munication of confidence to the people of that country. It
was the misfortune of the Irish Church that it had been ori-
ginally presented to the people of that country under an
invidious aspect. Its establishment, in the first instance, had
not been with a view to the religious wants of the people,
but with a view to the consolidation and extension of poli-
tical power. It was designed as a great engine in the
various machinery by which the ascendancy of England
was to be sustained in Ireland, and by that means it naturally
became an object of suspicion and dislike to the people. It
was no great wonder, then, if it made so few converts in that
country ; while the same creed, unfettered by the same Strang_
ling causes, was extending itself in other lands in all direc-
tions. That improvement was necessary in the constitution
of the Church no one now denied. The first step to be taken
in such a case was the reformation of its Ministers, which he
was happy to say had been already effected. The next was
a change in the present mode of collecting tithes. The peo-
ple of the country should be conciliated, and those holding
opposite opinions reconciled or appeased. The Church had
been clothed with great wealth and splendid possessions. No
doubt there was much exaggeration in the statements which
had been made on the subject; but still, after every allowance
its endowments were most ample. If the proposition before
their Lordships went• to injure the stability of the Church, he
- was of opinion that they should pause before they acceded to
it; but, on the contrary) if it could be shown that it had the
opposite effect they shouhl not hesitate a ;lament iu adopting