The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-13 00:00:00

RELIGIOUS PROCESSIONS.

Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT hoped his hon. friend (Sir A.
Agnew) would not press the motion, of which he had
given notice, on this subject. A great change had been
made during the year in respect to those processions, and
such as he thought would remove objections from the minds
of the most scrupulous and conscientious persons. There
was at this time a feeling of great irritation in the lonian
Islands, and he should be sorry to have that feeling aug-
mented by any discussion in that house. Since the time of
the general ordermade by Lord Hill considerable alterations
had been made, and soldiers were not now required to turn
out and pay respect to processions of a religious character.'
He hoped this arrangement would be satisfactory, and thal
the hon. baronet would withdraw his motion.
Sir A. AGNEW then postponed his motion till this day
fortnight.

MR. CHISHOLM ANSTEY.
Mr. E. JAMES moved for copies of all correspondence,
judge's notes, or other papers, on the following subjects, or
any of them :-1. The resignation of the justiceship of the
peace for Hong Kong by Mr. Thomas Chisholm Anstey,
sent in to the local Government on the 13th day of May,
1858 ; 2, his suspension on the 7th day of August, 1858,
from the Attorney-Generalship of the colony of Hong Kong,
and from the office of counsel to the Superintendency of
Trade in China ; 3, the case of the " Queen v. Tarrant" for
libel, tried at the November sessions (1853) of the Hong
Kong Supreme Court (criminal side) ; 4, the charge of
alleged complicity of Mr. Caldwell, justice of the peace,
and Protector of Chinese at Hong Kong, with Hong Kong
pirates; 5, the charges made against the acting Cblonial
Secretary (Dr Bridge.s)
.with reference to the foregoing
subjects, and also tlie„oplum farm monopoly; the charges
made against the Lieutenant Governor of Hong Kong (Col.
Caine) and his Chinese
,C9mprador, with reference to ex-
tortion and bribe-taking, in the yearslB46 and 1818 ; 7, the
proceedings against Mr. May, Superintendent of Police at
llong Kong, Mr. Tarrant, Registrar of Deeds there, and
the police court interyzetcr Tong Akou, and the dismissal
of the police court interpreter. Assam, for having selferally
given evidence against.the said parties, or any o them ; 8,

the Imperial regulatigns (if any) by which the several sus-
pensions al; repovuls beforementioned were authorised.
Mr. C. PORTESOVE said the late Secretary of State

for the Colonies felt himself justified in confuminir, the sus-

pension of Mr. Snstey by -the Governor and Executive
of Hong Kong, who acted on the report of the commission,
and refused to fur nish him with the grounds of their deci-
sion. The Secretary for the Colonies had sent out a
despatch on the subject, which no doubt would have been
communicated to Mr. Anstey had he not left Hong Kong
before it arrived. As to the charges brought by Mr. Anstey
against Mr. Caldwell and other officials, the Government at
Hong Kong and the Government at home were of opinion
that the graver portion of them was disproved. There was
no indisposition on the part of the present Secretary of State
to produce any papers called for in the motion, except some
which, from a sense of public duty, it would be necessary
to withhold. If the hon. gentleman would withdraw his
motion for the present, he (Mr. Fortescue) would, in a
fortnight .from this time, give him all the papers that
would be 'necessary.
Mr. JAMES assented, and the motion was withdrawn.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS.

Mr. HADFIELD obtained leave to bring in a bill to
amend the law for the regulation of municipal corporations
in England and Wales.

FIRE ASSURANCE DUTY.

Mr. H. SHERIDAN, on account of the shortness of the
session, withdrew his motion for leave to bring in a bill to
amend the law relative to the duty now chargeable on fire

THE CIVIL SERVICE EXAMINATIONS.

Mr. B. COCHRANE moved that an humble address be
presented to her Majesty, praying that shewill be graciously
pleased to instruct the civil service examiners, that all per-
sons who entered any service or procession prior to the
21st day of May, 185.5, to which service or profession the
present system of examinations is applicable, shall be con-
sidered eligible- for promotion, without being subjected to
any examination. The hon. gentleman said he had known
so much hardship to have arisen from the severe manner
in which these examinations were carried out, that he felt
himself perfectly justified in making the motion to which he
now asked the attention of the house. He could cite many
cases by way of illustrating the complaint which he made.
One 9f. those was that of a young man who had entered as a
temporary clerk three or four years before the Order in
Council of 21st of May, 1855, and had now been put into
competition with gentlemen who had had the advantage of
recently leaving, school. That gentleman, though not in-
efficient, had ben compelled in consequence to leave the
service, at a lime when it was impossible for him to enter
any other. There was another case of a gentleman, an
officer who had conferred great services on the country,
whose son had entered about nine years ago as temporary
clerk. Last year ho went up,for the examination, when he
found himself placed in competition with three or four
others. In that examination he was defeated, and he was
now out of the profession, In a third case, where a gentle-
man had entered as temporary clerk at the Admiralty in
July, 1811, the pressure of business incident to the late war
having kept him occupied at his office to a late hour of the
evening, he had been deprived of all opportunity for study-
ing those subjects in which the commissioners required a
candidate to be proficient. Thus in consequence of a sys-
tem having come into operation of which he never dreamed
when he first entered the service, he was defeated at an
examination in which he was expected to compete with
young men fresh. from their school, and had to
give unhis employment, • Now, he was well aware that it
might be said that temporary clerks were not upon the es-
tablishment. That he quite admitted ; but if that was to be
said at all; •it ought-to fee said when these young men en-
tered the service, so that they might know what they had
to look to in the employment they: had adopted. He
would, however, for the sake of illustration, take the case
of unpaid attaches. It could not be said that unpaid
attaches were in the public service, yet they were exposed
to a severe examination, and if they failed in that they
reaped no good whatever for their pains. He knew one
case of a gentleman who had been thus disappointed after
seven or eight years' service. As regarded the examina-
tions themselves, they were in general unnecessarily severe,
and in so great a degree was that the case, he was sure that
not thirty members of that house could answer the ques-
tions. The consequence was that the answers of the candi-
dates were often extremely bad--s 0 absurd, indeed, that it
was hard to believe that they were seriously intended for
answers to the questions. The hon. member then proceeded
to give a great number of examples from the geographical
examinations under the Civil Service Commission, in which
such examples as these occur :—The Volga rose in Prussia
and flowed past Exeter into the Mediterranean; Germany
was situated on the shores of the Caspian Sea, &c. (Laugh-
ter.) But if these answers were absurd, the questions them-
selves were not less so. Among many examples of the kind
stated by the hon. gentleman was one to this effect :—" De-
scribe the geographical position of the following places :
Italy, India, Inverary, Spain, Ireland, the Feejee Islands,
and Samarcand." (Laughter.) The hon. gentleman next
proceeded to give extracts from the examination necessary
to be passed in order to be a constable in Ireland. One of
these questions was to this effect :—" Describe the nature
of, and discuss the principal political questions which have
agitated Ireland during the last thirty years, and name the
principal persoes who took prominent parts in the agita
tion of those questions." (Laughter.) Now, for himself he
was doubtful whether the result of these examinations had
turned out as satisfactory as was commonly supposed,
though he was far from denying the utility of the principle.
The hon. gentleman concluded by moving for the address.
The motion having been seconded,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. gentleman had very ingeniously stated that the ob-
servations with which he introduced his motion did not
bear. upon the question ; and yet that was just the posi-
tion of the hon. gentleman's speech, which was most
amusing to the house, as it contained the questions quoted
from certain examinations which had taken place. Of
late years they had been busy in compelling the universi-
ties to adopt examinations where they had not adopted
them, and to push them to greater lengths where they had
adopted them ; and if questions from these examinations,
selected tor the purpose, were quoted to the house, which
had not had time to examine the matter in all its bearings,
there might be shown the same apparent want of judg-
ment on the part of the examiners as had been attempted
to be shown in this case. The hon. gentleman had consi-
derably exaggerated the hardship or injustice which had
happened to any one under the operation of this system ;
for there. had been almost au entire absence of proved com-
plaints on the subject of the tendency to overstrain the
system which the hon. gentleman had imputed to the com-
missioners. 'the fact was, that the system was in a
transition state ; at present it was but an experiment with
which they were progressing in the light-of experience,
and perhaps inconsistently, but still according to fixed rules;
by which many of the great problems of government had
been settled to the satisfaction of the pulic. The hon.
gentienian lied certainly not shown sufficient reasons for
the interference of the house, but the effect of such speeches
as that which the hon. gentleman had delivered wets directed
far more against the examinations themselves than against
the abuses which they were established to prevent. (Hear,
hear.) The cases complained of by the hon. gentleman
were the unpaid attaches and the temporary clerks, of both
of whom examinations were required previous to their en-
tering upon the permanent service; but in neither case did
the hon. gentleman show any good reason for the interfer-
ence of the house. The civil service commissioners only
acted in obedience to the Secretary of State, or to the orders
in council passed by her Majesty on the advice of the Go-
vernment, and for which, therefore, the whole Government
was responsible. They could not; therefore, ask her Ma-
jesty to instruct the civil service commissioners to disobey
the orders of her own Secretary of State. Before anything
of the kind was done there should be a complete inquiry;
but there was no prbna facie grounds for an inquiry, as
the instructions of Lord Clarendon, under which the com-
missioners still acted, were not unreasonable. Lord Cla-
rendon was not in favour of competitive examinations, but
still he wished the examinations to be real. As to the un-
paid attaches, many of them took the position merely in
order to reside for a time in a foreign capital under
favourable circumstances, and without the intention of
ever entering upon the permanent service, and those who
did enter upon the permanent service could not object to
undergo some examination as a test of fitness: So with the
temporary clerks ; before entering upon the permanent ser-
vice; and. becoming part of a succession in which they might
get salaries of £5OO, £1,000( or £1,200 a-year, it was quite
right that they should underlie an examination. As to the
particular cases referred to, in which the hon. gentleman
had declined to give the names, but had offered to give them
privately, he would investigate them if the hon. gentleman
would give him the names, and communicate the results of
his inquiries to the hon. gentlemen, who he thought would
perhaps entertain a different opinion, when he had heard
both sides, front that which he entertained now when he
•had received his impressions from rejected candidates. In
conclusion, he would express the hope that the motion
might be withdrawn.
Mr. CLIFFORD said one great injusticewas done by the
present system, and which seemed to be inseparable from it.
-It might happen, on Monday, fer instance, that there were
three candidates, and that one would get 1,000 marks, a se-
cond 900, and a third 800 marks. Of course the prize would
fall to the candidate with 1,000 marks. The next day, Tues-
day, three other young nfen might be examined, the highest
might obtain only 700 marks, and he would secure an ap-
pointment, while the two who received higher marks the
previous day had the mortification of being " plucked" for
want of ability.
Lord PALMERSTON said this system of competitive
examination was one which had been in opellation some
considerable time. It had occupied his close attention, and
ho had no hesitation in saying that, though like all human
arrangements, it was liable to imperfections, yet it had been
found upon the whole to work with great advantage to the
-public service. It was true that it in some cases operated to
shut out e ounce men, who were peculiarly qualified to
-discharge. the "duties of the office for which they
were competitors, in consequence of their not being
able to answer questions which were not essential to the
discharge of these duties. (Hear, hear.) It had been re-
presented that the civil service commissioners put questions
which were open to the criticism which the hon. gentleman
• opposite• had passed upon them—namely, that they were
questions not necessarily required from the young men who
,presented themselves as candidates for particular appoint-
ments. The answer 'of the examiners to that statement
was, he thought, a sufficient one. They said, "We have
before us, for instance, four, five,' or 'six young men, all
'equal in their knowledge of elenientary education, and all
apparently, equally qualified for the appointment so far as
that, test is concerned, and therefore we add some other
questions on other matters, in order to test the general pro-
ficiency and intelligence of those young men." But these
supernumerary t -the fa questions,
estiiloue nr
s toasanthsweyermwahiy
which
the young
arge
men not
q
will be rejected—they are put in order to test general ac-
uestiou s on
quirements, and it is only in cases where they fail to reply
satisfactorily-on elementary subjects that they are rejected.
The eonsequence of this, however, was obviously enough to
create misapprehension on the part of candidates them-
selves, as they and their friends might suppose that the re-
jection arose from inability to answer the redundant ques-
tions, while in reality the failure was on the elementary
questions. He repeated, that though the system might
have operated hardly upon 801110 individuals, it had given
a great stimulus to the general education of the country.
Parents were induced to give their families higher schooling
in order to enable them to compete for these appointments,
and the consequence was and must continue to be to add
largely to the general intelligence of the whole commu-
nity (Hear, hear.) With regard to the motion of the
hon. gentleman, he hoped that it would not be pressed, be-
cause it was quite clear that those other young men who
were appointed to temporary situations knew perfectly well
the conditions on which they took them ; and so again, with
respect to unpaid attachi-s they knew that promotion in
their profession was dependent upon their conduct and
their proficiency in that profession, and it was not too
much to ask, when they applied for promotion, that they
should undergo such an examination as others were sub-
jected to previous to being appointed. For these reasons
he hoped the motion would be withdrawn.
_ _

Mr: COCHILA.NE said he-would withdraw his motion
with this remark, that one benefit would be derived from
the debate, namely, that it would now be dear that those
who were appointed to temporary situations in the public

service were, by its rules, totally precluded from promotion.
The motion was then withdrawn.
ENDOWED SCHOOLS BILL.
Mr. DILLWYN nominated the following as the mem-
bers of the Select Committee on the Endowed Schools Bill:
—Mr. Dillwyn, Mr. Attorney-General, Lord Stanley, Sir
J. Graham, Mr. Lowe, Sir Cairns, Sir S. Northcote,
Mr. Puller, Sir T. E. Perry, Mr. Adderley, Lord R. Cecil,
Sir J. Pakington, Mr. H. . Bruce, Mr. G. W. Hope, and
Mr. Baines.—Five to be the quorum.
Col. DUNE complained that Irish members had been
almost excluded from the committee, and moved, as an
amendment, that the name of Lord Naas be substituted for
that of Mr. R. Lowe.
Mr. DILLAWYN said, in order to remove the objection,
he would move that the inquiry be confined to the endowed
schools of England and Wales.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the bill before the
house only affected Etigland and Wales, and did not extend
to Ireland.
Mr. LONGFIELD said the subject of endowed schools
was one of very great interest to Ireland, and, no doubt,
whatever decision the committee came to as regarded Eng-
land would be subsequently applied to Ireland ; on that ac-
count he thought a fair proportion of Irish members ought
to be placed upon it.
Lord It. CECIL said the hon. gentleman's motion for a
committee was confined exclusively to the Church of Eng-
land, and surely the Church of England was not the Church
of Ireland.
After some further discussion it was agreed that the com-
mittee, as then constituted, should pass, and that three
hon. members for Ireland should be added to it.

PACKET AND TELEGRAPH CONTRACTS.
The CHANCELOR of the EXCHEQUER next
moved that the select committee on Packet and Tele.
graphic Contracts do consist of 19 members :—Mr. Cobden
Sir Francis Baring, Sir Stafford Northcote, Lord John
Manners; Mr. Corry, Sir Henry Willoughby, Mr. Schole-
field, Mr. Dunlop, Mr. Baxter, Mr. Leicester Vernon, Capt.
Gladstone, Lord Naas, Mr. übbard, Mr. Hope, Mr. Wil-
son, Mr. Laing, Mr. Henry Herbert, Mr. Crawford, and
Mr. Bazley : power to send for Persons, papers, and re-
cords ; five to be the quorum. He could assure the house
that he found it very difficult to constitute a committee, be-
cause it was, necessary to have members connected with
various Governments upon it, and he hoped the house
would therefore allow him to nominate the large number of
nineteen. They wanted a full illustration of the facts, and
as searching an inquiry as it was possible to have.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the question was a very important
one, but it had degenerated in the hands of the Govern-
ment into a party contest. A very important principle
lay at the bottom of this question, for Parliamentary go-
vernment itself, great boon as it was, would be in vain, if
that house were to be converted into an executive commit-
tee. He (Mr. Roebuck) wished to know whether the com-
mittee to be appointed would not only inquire into these
contracts, but whether that inquiry was intended to extend
further, and to call in question the conduct of Ministers
themselves. That would be creating the House of Com-
mons an executive committee, which it was certainly not
for. Those virtuous gentlemen on the Ministerial benches
had discovered all of a sudden that public morality de-
manded the present inquiry • but he had thought that the
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was
one who would not, by any act of his, damage the prin-
ciples of constitutional government. Tho course he was
about to pursue would do it great injury. If it were di-
rected to bring responsibility on previous Governments,
then he could understand it ; but the inquiry proposed to
go into the conduct of the Governments themselves, and
thus constituted the house an executive committee. The
right hon. gentleman who sat beside the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, said the other night, that no determination or
decision which any Govgnment had gone into would be
called in question, but that was not the course pro-
posed by those virtuous gentlemen who sat near him
on the Treasury, bench who were so pure themselves.—
(A laugh.) Now, let them take the question of the contract
for packet service from Galway to North America. He
wished to know if that virtuous bench—(a laugh)—would
call in question the conditions upon which that contract was
entered into. If they did so, it would bring into disgrace
the principle of all constitutional Governments. If they
held , up the principle that no contract was tp be binding
unless it received the sanction of that house, it would para-
lyse the action of the Government for the time being, and
would do infinite mischief. Now let themtake, for example,
the defences of the country. Money will be required for
that purpose ; and will those who sit on the Treasury bench
assert for a moment thatno money was to be expended until
Parliament met, suppose it had been prorogued ? Then he
wished to know from the rightlion. gentleman whether this
inquiry was to be limited to the mere acts of former Go-
vernments,' or to their responsibility in pursuing a course
not sanctioned by that house. Rhetoric was one thing, but
a wise statesman would foresee the consequences of depart-
ing from principle, which the trumpery art of a dexterous
rhetoric would not enable him to do.
Mr. M'MAHON complained that only two Irish members
were on the committee, while Scotland had three, and as a
great feeling existed in the former country with regard to
a packet station, he thought the right hon. gentleman
onght to increase the number.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that it was the intention of the Government that the com-
mittee should question the acts, as distinguished from the
conduct of previous Governments. He was not prepared
to throw any limitation whatever to their duties with refer-
ence to the past or future, but he hoped they would preserve
public faith inviolate. With respect to the suggestion of
the hon. and learned gentleman the member for the county
of Wexford, he really could not comply with it. The
number of Irish members was a just proportion and he could
not alter it.
The SPEAKER then proceeded to call over, in their
order, the names of the members of the committee, and,
when he uttered that of Mr. Baxter,
Mr. MAGUIRE said he objected to the name of that
hon. gentleman being retained upon the committee. The
hon. gentleman had expressed opinions on the sub-
ject of the Galway line of communication, which he con-
sidered of a nature to render it undesirable that he
should be placed upon the committee. He therefore hoped
the hon. member, from feelings of delicacy, would &cline
being appointed a member of it, and he should, for the rea-
sons he had given,, move that the name of Mr. Hennessey
be substituted in the place of that of Mr. Baxter—a gentle-
man for whom he entertained the highest respect for his
talent and bearing in that house, but to whose name he
only objected in the present instance for. the reasons he
had given.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to
remind the hon. gentleman he could only make one part of
his proposed motion at one time. The question then was,
that-the name of Mr. Baxter be omitted from- the com-
mittee. He hoped his hon. friend (Mr. Baxter) would not
withdraw his llama. (Hear.)
Mr. BAXTER was not aware that entertaining opinions
upon matters of i contract should operate to exclude any
man from affording his best energies in inquiring into and
carrying on any part of the business of the country.
Mr. WHITESIDE did not think that the right hon.
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated the
reasons about the constitution of the committee in a satis-
factory manner. He (Mr. Whiteside) thought the names
of four Irish members ought to be placed upon the com-
mittee. There was not 'one member from the west of
Ireland on the committee, and he must say that that was
not a just thing. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said it seemed to him, when he first saw
the selection of the names, that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had made a great mistake. The least satisfac-
tory thing connected with the house was the small amount
of-good which resulted from these committees, and there-
fore it was that he declined serving on them, as he con-
sidered it time and labour thrown away. He found the
names of members of the late Government who would
naturally go into the committee to justify the acts of that
Government. The officials of any former Government,
not the late one, would support the acts of the present Go-
vernment—(hear, hear)—and in that way the independent
members would be overborne. (Hear, hear.) The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer felt that the house would not
justify his first list, and he had therefore added five more
nau es, making the number in all 19. He (Mr. Bright)
thought that was another error, because the committee
being so large would get into confusion, and end as such
committees generally did. He would rub out, and have
only so many officials as would serve to elucidate. The
members for Galsvay and for Liverpool ought not to be on
such a committee, as the custom generally was for gentle-
men to take ‘a particular view of their own interests, and
to be swayed by their constituencies. He therefore thought
official and local members should be excluded, as a com-
mittee could be formed of independent members well quali-
fied to decide upon the question. (Hear.) As to the hon.
member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter), he was as well qualified
as any member of that house to sit upon the committee.
He possessed the average ability of hon.members. He had
travelled in the United States more than once, and had
written a very valuable book upon that country to which
the packet service applied, and for these reasons he (Mr.
Bright) would oppose the exclusion of Mr. Baxter from
that • committee. There was an opinion prevailing that
there was something very like jobbing in these subsidies,
and they should endeavour to make the report of the com-
mittee a valuable one. (Hear, hear.)
The house then divided, w, hen the numbers were—
For the m0ti0n..... 135
Against it. ..............
Majority —lol
Mr. Baxter's name was accordingly added to the com-
mittee.
On the SPEAKER reading the name of Mr. Wilson,
Mr. HENNESEY moved that the name of Mr. Wilson
should be omitted.
After a few observations from Mr. Horiss'Aus and Mr.
H. Herbert, who said he had no wish to servo himself; but
thought the committee would be imperfect without the
name of Wilson,
The house was cleared for a division, but none took place.
Mr. MAGUIRE` suggested that the subject should be
adjourned till to-morrow.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
see how the constitution of the committee could be im-
proved, and therefore he hoped the hon: gentleman would
not press for an adjournment.
Mr. SCULLY said it was possible to add names to the
committee, and if they were not he should consider the
committee a nullity.
Mr. Laing and Mr. Henry Herbert were then added to
the committee.
On the motion that Mr. Crawford be appointed,
Mr. VANCE objected on the ground that there were'
not a sufficient number of Irishmen on the committee.
Lord PALMERSTON said hon. members seerped• to
forget that four members of the committee held office under
the late Government. He thought the committee was very
fairly constituted.
Mr. DISRAELI said the object of the house should be
to have the committee formed of gentlemen unbiasst 'el, and '
who would be likely to arrive at an impartial and ju st con-
clusion. He certainly thought Ireland was not sufficiently
represented oh the committee. (Hear.) He had voted for
the name of Mr. Wilson, because he was a good business
man. Although he did not like large committees as a gene-
ral rule, yet he did not think a committee of 21 would be
more unmanageable than a committee of 19. He thought
one of the members for Ditblin and some member repre-
senting an important town in the west of Ireland should be
placed upon the committee. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested
that the four members who were connected with the late
Government might be reduced to two, and then two Irish
members might be added.
The motion for adjournment was then withdrawn.
Mr. Bazley was added to the committee.
- BOUNDARIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. CARDWELL moved for leave to bring in a bill to
amend the act 20 and 21 Vic., c. 45, relating Co the survey
of boundaries in Ireland.
Leave mvas given to brinein the bill.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.—ADMIRALTY COURT
BILL.
The house then proceeded to the orders of the day.
Mr. lIADFIELD moved that the house go lute commit-
tee on the Admiralty Court Bill. •
Mr. MALINS hoped the hon. and learned gentleman
would not persevere in his motion at that time, as the bill
hai only been before the house a week.
Mr. FIADrIELD refused to withdraw the motion, ob-

serving that the bill was read a second time last year, and •
that it had been introduced at the earliest possible period
in the present session.
The motion was then agreed to, and the house went into
committee on the bill.
On clause 1,
Mr. MALINS said that while he did not object to the
principle of throwing open the Admiralty Court to barris-
ters and solicitors, he did object to that being done without
compensation to the gentlemen who at present practised in
it. The principle of compensation had been adopted under
precisely similar circumstances in the arrangements rela-
tive to the Probate Court, and the Matrimonial and Divorce
Court. There could be no reason why a proctor should
have compensation for the loss of his practice in those
courts, and yet be refused it for that which he had in the
Admiralty Court. He moved that the Chairman report
progress.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that in his judg-
ment the proctors had had compensation enough under the
Matrimonial Probate Court Acts. The bill was brought in
last session by the hon. member for Sheffield, but was in-
terrupted by the dissolution, and being now re-introduced
by him, he was of opinion that it ought to be ne longer de-
layed. (Cheers.) The only object for delay, indeed, was
to give those gentlemen time to get up petitions against it.
(Hear, hear.)

,
Mr. MOWBRAY said if compensation were made at all,
however, he would suggest that it be made on the basis of
the difference of income before and after the passing of the
act. Were it so awarded, he had a strong conviction
that it would amount to nothing. (Cheers.)
The clause, which was the only one in the bill, was then
agreed to, together with an addition to the effect that prac-
titioners in the court were to be subject to the authority of
one of of the superior courts of law, or of the court itself.
The house then resumed, and the bill; as amended was
reported.
ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF ACT AMENDMENT
BILL.

On the order of the day for the second reading of this
bill,
Mr. NEWDEGATE moved as an amendment that the
bill bz.. read a second time that day three months. In the
act of 1829, it was clearly intended that the Lord Chancel-
ship of Inland should, like the Lord Chancellorship of
England, be confined to persons professing the Protestant
religion, and Sir It. Peelhad designedly reserved those high
offices as securities against any Roman Catholic encroach-
ments. The Lord Chancellor was the constitutional ad-
viser of the Crown upon every matter whether constitutional
or ecclesiastical, and the change was, therefore, a great and
an important one even if no ecclesiastical patronage at •
tached to the office.
Sir B. BRIDGES seconded the amendment.
Mr. CARDWELL was happy to give his support to what
he conceived to be a just and righteous amendment of the

law, because in the Catholic Relief Act they had every
possible safeguard for the protection of the Protestant
Church.

Mr. WHITESIDE had heard this preposition made by
Sir W. Somerville with surprise and regret that such a bad
precedent should be set for thus dealing with the great act
of 1829. He denied that it was by inadvertence that this
clause found its way 'into that act. On the contrary, he
contended that it was intentionally inserted as a security to
the Protestant Church, and he was surprised that the Go-
vernment should now support the present attempt to
repeal it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he

should support the bill with as clear a conscience as he ever
had in any vote he had given in that house, and he regretted
that Mr. Whiteside appeared less liberal on the opposition
side than he had shown himself when sitting on the Trea-
surybenches as a member of the Government. The only
objections he had heard started against the bill should be
dealt with in committee.
Mr. WALPOLE supperted the views taken by Mr.
Whiteside, whose arguments he considered unanswerable.
Colonel DICKSON moved the adjournment of the
debate.
Lord PALMERSTON opposed the adjournment, and
contended that the bill was in strict conformity with the
spirit of the Act of 1829.
Mr. DISRAELI said the question was one of great dif-
ficulty and doubt, for no one seemed.perfectly cognisant of
all the various duties of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
Under these circumstances he thought they required addi-
tional information before proceeding further ; and he also
thought that a measure of such importance should be
brought in on the responsibility of the Government. He
should like to see the subject referred to a select committee,
and if the Government would consent to that course he
would support the second reading.
Sir G. C. LEWIS recommended Sir Wm. Somerville to
accept the proposition of Mr. Disraeli, and have the bill re-
ferred to a select committee.
Mr. STANHOPE said he could not assent to the second
reading of the bill.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he would accept the pro-
posal of the right hon. gentleman.
Colonel DICKSON said that since he had moved the
adjournment a further discussion had taken place, and he
therefore did not now feel inclined to press the motion for
the adjournment.
Sir W. MILES said he could not allow the motion for
the adjournment to be withdrawn.
Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON opposed the bill amid
loud cries of " Divide, divide."
The question of adjournment was then put, when the
house divided, and the numbers were—
For the adjournment of the debate .... 142
Against
Majority against the adjournment
Sir E. GROGAN said, as the propo ed bill involved the
repeal of the Act of 1829, he would move that the house
should now adjourn.
After a few words from Sir G. C. Lewis, Sir IV. Som-
merville, and Sir W. Miles,
Lord PALMERSTON said that he had supposed, when
they had acceded to the suggestion to send the bill to a
select committee, that further opposition was at an end as
to the second reading. He suggested that the motion for
the Adjournment of the house should be withdrawn, when
the debate could then be adjourned.
Mr. H. HERBERT said he understoOd that the right
hon. baronet had agreed to send the bill to a select com-
mittee' on the ,;round that the bill should be now read a
second time. (Hear, hear, and No, no.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE said he would not be satisfied with
such a measure being dealt with by a select committee.
The :notion for the adjournment of the house having been
negatived, the debate was adjourned till Tuesday next.
The report on supply was then brought up, and some
bills having been advanced a stage, the house adjourned at
two o'clock.