The Sun.
London, England, 1832-06-06 00:00:00

—(A laugh.) If Old Sarum was to be taken away, •
why was Tavistock retained?—it must go--it was an in-
sult to the nation and a biting sarcasm on their own dis-
in•erestedness. This Bill was said to come from the
House of Lords. What was the House of Lords.—(A
laugh ?)--What was it ?—(A laugh.) What was it ?
( A laugh.) It was nothing but a body of living Old Sa-
rums.—(Roars of laughter.) It mattered not what the
House of Lords had been—what was it now ? It was de-
fiinct.—(A laugh.) The life of a Legislative body was its in-
dependence. They had destroyed that ; its life was extinct
.—it was a defunct corpse—(a laugh)--it was a stink-
ing carcass—(A laugh)—it was in a state of putrefaction,
—a nuisance in the nostrils of the people.—(Great laugh-
ter.) They were told that the Monarch was for Reform,
and that Monarchy and Reform could exist together. So
ittiey might, as abstract rights, but could they in any other
way There were those who would bring that question
before the House, hut he was not the man. This Bill
was neither a concession to the demands of the people,
nor vas it in the spirit of the times. Had they taken
ten of the smallest boroughs, and thrown their franchise
into ten larger towns, they would not only have fully
met, hut would have exceeded the demands of the people.
—(Hear, and no.) They had done more ; and as much
as they had exceeded the demands of the people, they had
fallen short of the spirit of the age. That spirit was
against all privileged classes—(Hear and laughter,)—it
was against Kings and Nobles—against Priests and Pre.
fates—against prerogatives and prescription—against the
monopoly of power ; aye, and against the monopoly of
riches.—( Hear, hear.) The spirit came upon us from
east and west. From the west, from America, where it
was deeply rooted, and had become indigenous in the soil ;
arid from the East, from France, where, after a fierce
struggle of forty years, it was again triumphant.—(Hear,
hear.) The nobility and gentry of England had man-
fully fought the battle, but they were overpowered ; and
he would not anticipate the consequences. The Hon.
Member concluded by declaring it to be his opinion, that
the Members of that House, in passing the present Bill,
were betraying their King, betraying their country, and
betraying the people who sent them as Representatives to
watch over their interest.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—as so much had been said
in the course of the debate on the conduct pursued by
various Members of the Government, as well as the
Government itself, and as insinuations bad been thrown
out against himself—felt bound to offer one or two obser-
vations before the discussion was brought to a termina-
tion. In the first place he would remark, that one of the
principal accusations brought against the Noble Earl at
the head of the Government was, that after having pro-
mised, if the Bill was a read a second time, to allow
all fair, and just, and reasonable examinations of its pro-
visions in Committee, the Noble Earl had, on the very
first opportunity, taken means to violate his pledge,
arid to compel the House of Lords to adopt the Bill
without any alteration or amendment. Now, be (Lord
J. Russell) could assure the House, no man desired—that
no man desired more earnestly, from the very outset,
that the Bill should have every fair and deliberate ex-
amination, than his Noble Friend did. No man was more
anxious to preserve the freedom of debate, and to allow
a thorough discussion of the principles of the measure of
. . .

Reform, but with that reservation which was necessary
at once to the preservation of his political character and
his personal honour—to the welfare of the people, to the
progress of the Bill itself, and to the maintenance of
those principles which he had openly pledged himself to his
country should remain inviolate. Under such circum-
stances, and after that vote in the House of Lords, which
went at once to overturn the declaration in the preamble
of the Bill, lie contended that his Noble Friend had no
course left him save that which he had adopted.—(Hear,
hear.) He came now to that other accusation against the
Government, of having aided and abetted in the extension
of commercial distress, andtthe destruction of public con-
fidence. Without entering into that subject, or attempt-
ing to defend them against such accusations, he would ask
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite 'if they had ever considered
the consequences of the other alternative of the subject ?
Had they ever looked at what might have been the effect
on public credit and public confidence, if one clause of
the Bill after another had been erased or mutilated—if, as
an Hon. Gentleman near him had properly expressed it,
one victory after another had been carried against the
people? If the people had seen the Bill reduced to that
state, and perhaps at last utterly destroyed, there would
then have been the same commercial disorders, the same
political agitation, the same violent declamation at the
onions, the same incendiary speeches—and, beyond all,
that in proportion as the hope of seeing the Bill carried
became diminished, the confidence of the people in its
supporters would have been destroyed, so that at last they
might have arrived at such a melancholy state of things
that there would have been no centre of authority left to
preserve subordination, and insure the observance of
the laws and the tranquillity of the country—(Hear,
hear, hear)—while they might rest assured, that as
the people were determined to pass the Bill, they
would have sought the means of doing so in a course
still more violent and more destructive.—(Hear, bear.)
The Member for Aldeburgh (Mr. Croker) had adverted
to the Proclamation for the suppression of Political
Uniena, put forth some time since by the Government, and
observed that the intention of the Government had been
completely thwarted by those against whom that procla-
mation was directed. Ile (Lord J. Russell) denied that the
proclamation alluded to had been issued against persons who
were guilty of an illegal act, in forming themselves into a
kind of police force for the preservation of the peace under
the direction of their own leader. Against this the pro-
clamation was directed, because it was illegal ; but when
men met under the name of a union, however inconve-
nient it might prove to the Government that they should
do so, he knew no law to prevent them, whether they were
assembled as unionists or conservatives (and they might
as well call themselves a club as a union)—(A laugh)—
whether the Gov•ernrnent could approve of their doctrines
or not, so long as they refrained from tittering language
which was seditious, he knew not that there was any law
to prevent them so assembling, nor could he agree that it
was right in the Government to assume a power which the
law did not recognise for their suppression. At the same
time he had no hesitation is declaring, that political unions,
;f kept up for any length of time in any country, would
lead the people to the continuance of an agitation not
more injurious to the constituted authorities than to the
people themselves, and which would finally, by interfer-
ing with all their ordinary pursuits, be productive of the
greatest mischiefs.—(Hear, hear.) But what did lie
infer from this ? Relying on the sound sense and right
judgment of the people of England, be was convinced
that when they had an opportunity of choosing their own
repreeentrtives, who would zealously perform their duty,
they would not persist in attending those assemblages to
the injury of themselves, the Government, and the Con-
stitution itself.—(Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he felt it
necessary to say, that as far as the present Government
were concerned, this measure they considered a final one.
This, indeed, as they had declared at first, would be one
of the results of the carrying the whole Bill ; for if they
bad succeeded in carrying bet a part of it, they must have
again and again agitated the question till the necessary
Reform was accomplished. Having •o carried, he sew a
better, and indeed a roost satisfactory security against fur-
ther change, because both those who supported, and those
who opposed it, were alike determined to go no further,
but to use their best efforts to preserve the renovated Con-
stitution entire and unimpaired.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL, amid loud cries of Question, said
he supported the amendments because the Bill had come
down from the Lords with a greater extension of Fran.
chise, and a broader basis of principle than when it was
sent up there.
Lord SANDON, without renewing the protest he bad
already made against many parts of the Bill, begged to ask,
as he considered it most important, whether it was the in-
tention of the Government to give charters to these new
boroughs created by the Bill ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the subject had been under
consideration for some time, but he apprehended, that in
every case they would not be able to get their charters
before they would be called upon to exercise the privilege
now conferred on them.

The amendments were then read and agreed t,,, and
Lord Althorp, Lord John Russell, and others ordered to
carry the Bill back to the Lords. •

SCOTCH REFORM BILL.

The House then went into a Committee on the Scotch
Reform Rill.

On the thirteenth clause being read,
Sir G. CLERK objected to the method of registering
the voters as altogether inadequate to the object, and re-
commended that they should either adopt the English
system of appointing barristers to each district, or else re-
fer the matter to the Commissioners of Supply. He com-
plained, too, of the price of the registration of the Scotch
voters being greater than that of the English.
The LORD ADVOCATE thought that the arrange-
ment of barristers registering the votes would not be found
advisable in Scotland ; and with respect to the fee of Cs.,
he thought that it was much fairer that that should fall on
the persons benefited than on the public.
Sir G. WARRENDER thought that to leave tEis
matter in the hands of the Sheriff would be overburdening
that office with work.

Lord .ALTHORP coneented to the I,osti,onement of the