The Sun.
London, England, 1835-09-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 1835.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
Lords' Amendments considered :—Clause 25, Amendment
proposed to be made to the amendment made by the Lords,
which amendment was to insert the words " nor shall any per-
son be qualified to be a councillor of any such borough, who
shall not be entitled to be on the burgess list of such borough,"
at the end of the said amendment to add the words, nor unless
he shall be seised or possessed of real or personal estate, or
both, to the following amount—that is to say, in all boroughs
directed by this Act to be divided into four or more wards to
the amount of one thousand pounds, and in all boroughs di-
rected to be divided into less than four wards, or shall not be
divided into wards, to the amount of five hundred pounds."—
(Lord John Russell.)
Whereupon it was moved, to amend the said amendment
so proposed to the amendment of the Lords, after the words
" one thousand pounds," to insert the words " or be rated to
the relief of the pour in such borough upon the annual value
of not less than thirty pounds."—( Sir Robert Peel.)
Whereupon it was moved, to amend the said amendment
proposed to be made to the amendment proposed to be made
to the Lords amendment, by leaving out the word " thirty,"
and inserting the word " ten." Question put, " That the
word ' thirty' stand part of the amendment." The House
divided—Ayes 271, Noes 37. Amendment to Lords amend-
ment amended, and :agreed to.
Clause 47, Amen dment proposed to the Lords amendment,
which amendment was to insert the words " in respect of
amount of rating or of estate as aforesaid," to prefix the words
"at the time of ma king such declaration." Question put,
" That the proposed words be prefixed to the said amend-.
mendment." The House divided—Ayes 167, Noes 33.
Clause 96—( Appointment of justices in boroughs)—Me_
tion made, and question put, " That this House cloth agree
with the Lords in the amendments to the said clause." The
House divided--Ayes 69, Noes 164.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL

LIST OF THE MINORITY

Of 36 (Tellers included), who voted for the reduction of the
Qualification of Town Councils from a rating of 30/. to that o.
101. per annum.
Against the motion .
For the motion .

273
36
-237
Thomson, C. P.
Cooke, W.
Tulk, Charles A
Vivian, John Ennis
Wakley, Thomas
Walker, C. A.
Wallace, IL
Warburton, 11.
Williams, W.

Majority
Elphinstone, Howard
Ewart, W.
Fielden, J.
Grote, G.
Hector, C.. 7.
Marsland, H.
Mullins, W. F.
O'Connell, D.
O'Connell, M.
Palmer, C.
Philips, M.
Itippon, C.

Aglionby, H. A.
Attwood, T.
Beauclerk, Major
Blake, M. J.
llowring, Dr.
Brabazon, Sir W. J.
Brady, D. C.
Buckingham, J. S.
Buiwer. H. L. •
Byng, Hon. G.
tonyugnam Lord A TELLERS.
Crawford, W. S. Roebuck, .1. A.
Dundas, J. C. i , C.
Major Macnamara paired off with Mr. Arthur Cole.

SECOND EDITION.

SUN OFFICE, Seven o'cloci

THE PARLIAMENT.

(THIS EVENING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Lord DENMAN took his seat on the Woolsack at five o'clock

MUSIC AND DANCING BILL.

Lord KEN YON presented a petition against the Bill, and
suggested that the Noble and Learned Lord would postpone
the second reading of the Bill till to-morrow.
The Denmark and Sardinia Slave Trade Bills were seve-
rally read a third time, and passed.
The Earl of WICK LOW presented petitions from Claren-
don Chapel and Swords, near Dublin, against the Irish Tithe
Bill.

On the order of the day for the third reading of the Abo

tion of Capital Punishments' Bill being read,
Lord BROUGHAM said a Noble Lord opposite had some
objections to urge to the Bill, and moved that the third read.
in. he deferred to Friday.—Agreed to.
°On the motion of Lord BROUGHAM the Arrestment of
Wages (Scotland) Bill was read a third time.
PRISON, DISCIPLINE.
The Duke of RICHMOND, as chairman of the Committee
on Prison Discipline, brought up the fifth Report of the Com-
mittee. He trusted that many of the evils which at present existed
would speedily be remedied by the Secretary of State. In justice
to the Committee he would state that they had spared neither
time nor trouble in investigating the subject—they had per-
sonally visited many of the prisons of the Metropolis, and had
examined a great deal of evidence. One very great inconve-
nience to which unfortunate persons were subjected in these pri-
sons was, that when under sentence of death they could not have
a private cell to themselves. This he trusted would be reme-
died by the Secretary of State, as he would be empowered
to do by the late Bill. He begged in conclusion to move that
copies of the evidence and report be sent to the Keepers of
the various Prisons in the metropolis.
The Earl of CARBERRY bore testimony to the zeal and
industry with which the Noble Duke had discharged his duty
as Chairman of that Committee.
After a few words from Lord FARNHAM and Viscount
DUNCANNON, the report was ordered to be printed.
ORANGE LODGES.
Lord PLU KETT, seeing an illustrious Duke in his place,
begged to allude to a report of a statement attributed to the il-
lustrious Duke (Cumberland) in a newspaper ofyesterday, at an
Orange Lodge at which the Illustrious Duke had presided.
The statement attributed to the Illustrious Duke was, that he
had been subjected to attacks of the most violent and vi-
rulent character, andi that a Noble and Learned Lord, mean-
ing himself; bad taken the liberty on the occasion of a petition
having been presented from the University of Dublin to charge
him the Duke of Cumberland) with tampering with the heads of
the University, and establishing an Orange lodge therein. The
Report further stated that the Illustrious Duke said he should

treat such observations with contempt, that the conduct
of the Noble and Learned Lord was ungentlemanly, and that
he (the Dnke of Cumberland) would not submit to be bullied.
If such statements were made, he regretted the Noble Duke
had not made it before his (Lord P.'s) face in that House, and
however great the difference of their respective ranks might
be, neither that illustrious Duke, nor any man alive, had a
right to state that he had been actuated by violent or malig-
nant feelings—that his conduct was ungentlemanlike—or that
he was authorised to treat him with contempt.
The Duke of CUMBERLAND—.I never said so.—( Hear,
hear.) If the Noble and Learned Lord will allow rue I shall
state what I did say.
Lord PLUNKETT—With the greatest pleasure.
The Duke of CUMBERLAND proceeded to state what
had occurred on the occasion of his presenting a petition from
the University of Dublin (as reported in a former number of
The Sun). He had felt it his duty to call a meeting of the
Grand Orange Lodge a few days ago, and had then alluded
to the charge brought against him, of having established an
Orange Lodge in the University of Dublin. He stated there
might or might not be a Lodge, but he was not aware of it.
He then stated, and he appealed to the Noble and Learned Lord
if such, was not the fact, that he had been most cruelly maligned
and attacked. That statement bad been made generally, but
without any reference to the Noble and Learned Lord—
( Hear)—and no one could deny that he had not been so
abused, because he had adhered to his principles firmly,
manfully, and boldly.---( Hear.) He had further said, that no
man, whoever he was, should attempt to to bully him (the D.
of Cumberland.) That statement had no reference to the
Noble and Learned Lord—( Hear, hear)—but it was a general
statement with respect to his determined adherence to those
principles which he believed to be the salvation of the country
and the support of the Protestant religion.—( Hear, hear. )
He had never said anything of any man behind his back
that he should not be ready to say to his face.--( Hear.)
Lord PL UNKET expressed himself perfectly satisfied
with the statement of the illustrious Duke, and should be
sorry that an erroneous impression should be abroad of his
having made so improper and unjustifiable an attack upon the
illustrious Duke.

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND.)
Viscount DUNCANNON, in bringing up this Bill, en-
tered into some details of the measure, which, he observed,
would tend to assimilate the Irish to the existing English
system.

The Earl of LIMERICK opposed the introduction of the
Bill at so late a period of the session. It was full of novel
legislation and difficulties, which he feared could not be got,
over in the short time that remained to their Lordships for the
despatch of public business.
Lord PLUNKETT defended the Bill, and urged the pro..
piety of allowing it to go into Committee, unless their Lord-
ships wished to throw out the Bill altogether.
CLEFT SITTING.)

The petition was also supported by two Hon. MEMBERS,
whose names were unknown in the Gallery.
Lord MORPETH also presented a petition from the Mo-
derator and Presbyters of the Synod of Ulster, complaining
that the Commissioners of Education had very much under.
rated them in their Returns.
TOWER HAMLETS.
Mr. CLAY presented a petition from the inhabitants of
the borough of the Tower Hamlets, which was agreed to at
a meeting held on Monday, which consisted of not less than
10,000 persons.—( Hear, hear.) All the resolutions were
unanimously adopted, and within a few hours the petition
was signed by three thousand persons whose residences
were attached,, and if another day had been allowed, ten
thousand names would have been added to the petition, which
in substance stated that the electors of the Tower Ham-
lets viewed with satisfaction the introduction of the Mu-
nicipal Reform Bill, and their regret at the mutilations made
in the other House. They stated, that in consequence of this and
other proceedings of that House, it had become apparent
that in that House there was a disposition to frustrate and de-
lay all reforms, and therefore they prayed that such a reform
might be made in that House as would render it an useful
establishment to the country.---( Hear.) The petitioners
declared themselves ready to support Ministers. He trusted
that this petition would yet operate as a warning to the other
branch of the legislature, and that it would not continue to
proceed in a manner which he regretted to say was spreading
a spirit of contempt for that House amongst the people.
Dr. LUSHINGTON was happy to add his testimony to
that of his Hon. Colleague, in support of the petition. Cir-
cumstances had intervened since the meeting, which would
render it advisable for him to abstain from making such obser-
vations as he should otherwise have made, because they
might now lead to an inopportune contention.—(Hear, hear.)
He must be allowed to say that in that immense district, con-
taining 370,000 inhabitants, the majority of them entertained the
sentiments contained in that petition, and if justice were not
accorded to the wishes of the people, they were prepared, by
every constitutional effort, to support their Representatives in
Parliament in finally obtaining it.
Mr. SINCL AIR had seen many petitions calling for a re.
form of the House of Lords. He wished some Hon. Gentle.
man opposite would explain what a reform of the' Lords meant ?
How was it to be effected? Did Hon. Gentlemen opposite
think they could get an Act of Parliament passed through
the Legislature to effect it?—(" Hear, hear" from Mr. Hume
and Mr. Roebuck.) It must be without the consent of the
House of Peers then.—( Hear, hear.) That House would
most properly resist such an attack. By their conduct with
reference to the Municipal Reform Bill, the House of Lords
had acquired the gratitude of the country, and had shown
themselves to be actuated by the most just and honest
principles.
Mr. ROEBUCK—The Hon. Member has asked what we
mean by a reform of the House of Lords ? The motion which
he intended to make very early next session would show. He
would propose that the veto possessed by the House of Lords
in all matters of legislation should be entirely taken away—
( A laugh)--and that they should substitute in lieu of it a
suspensive power—( Hear)—so that when a Bill passed the
House of Commons, and was thrown out by the House of
Lords, and during the same Session was again passed by
the House of Commons, it should, upon receiving the
Royal Assent, become the law of the land. He meant
to ask for leave to bring in a Bill for this purpose :
and as this House did consent, very much against
their own wishes, to reform itself, he was very much
inclined to believe, that the same pressure from
without would conipel the House of Lords to reform
themselves.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") That is, he be-
lieved they would be enabled to pass a Bill into an
Act by the aid of the Commons, Lords, and King, by which the
House of Lords would be made an efficient instrument of le-
gislation, which under present circumstances they were by no
means calculated to be, viz. while they remained irrespon-
sible, ignorant, and interested.
Mr. HUME was gratified to be able to make so satisfac-
tory a contrast between the conduct of this House and the other.
'This House had received the mutilations of the Bill in the spirit
of conciliation. He would put in contrast the manner in which this
Bill had been received, and this House spoken of in another
place, and he would ask whether the House of Commons, as
contrasted with the House of Lords, had not the advantage.
The Hon. Gentleman has asked what; we mean by a Re-
form of the House of Lords ? What he was anxious to do,
and, if it were in his power—( A laugh)—would do, and what
he meant to propose to effect was this :—there were three
propositions : the first was that no man, even though he had the
qualifications of an angel, could act to good purpose unless he was
properly responsible—unless be was under some responsibility
to authority. Now, the House of Lords was irresponsible
altogether. The House of Commons was formerly an
irresponsible body, till they were reformed by a Bill which was
passed by the House of Commons, the House of Lords, and
the King. They were made responsible by this measure,
and be had no reason to doubt but that the time would ar-
rive when by a similar Bill they would see the House of Lords
made equally responsible for their conduct. The public
should know the situation of the House of Lords, which
combined the qualifications of Members of the Legis-
lature, and of a court of appeal.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He had intended and was ready for some time to put on
the table of the House this Session a notice to the effect
which he had stated. He should early in the next session
move for the appointment of a Select Committee, to inquire
into the number of Peers in Parliament, their qualification as
such—(Cheers)—to inquire into the powers of the House, and
to consider how far the 'House had fulfilled its important duties
of a legislative body, and also as to the manner in which
conferences took place, and communications were held between
the House of Lcrds and the House of Commons.—(Cheers.)
He (Mr. Hume) thought the distinctions that were kept up
between the House of Commons and the House of Lords
were most degrading. The Commons were obliged to stand
uncovered, while the Peers sat with their hats on.—( Cheers. )
The fact was that the House of Commons were in effect denied
the opportunity of communicating their opinions or sentiments
to the House of Lords.--( Cheers.) A conference was a com-
plete farce, as it was only the medium for the exchange of
bits of paper.—(Cheers.) He thought when the House set itself
against all improvement in the country, it was high time to
see whether or not Reform should take place. He was
sure, however, that the House of Commons, when they
desired the correction of improper abuses, did not wish
to abolish the House of Peers.—(Loud cheers.) He
had never heard any person w.ith whom he had
conversed express such a wish, but he had heard a desire
stated that they should be made a fit and proper instrument of
good government. (Cheers.) He could not conceive a
better form of government than that of King, Lords,
and Commons, if they were all placed in their pro-
per sphere; but when he saw one branch taking to
themselves the prerogatives of the three, he thought it was high
time some change should take place.—( Cheers.) He begged
pardon for having said so much about the House of Peers,
but he considered the subject demanded it.
The petition was then laid on the table.
Mr. GROTE presented a petition from the "Ward of P ort-
soken, against the amendments of the House of' Lords in the
Municipal Reform Bill.

REMOVAL OF THE BISHOPS.
Mr. C. RIPPON gave notice, that early in the next Ses-
sion he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to remove the
Archbishops and Bishops from the House; and also a •resolu-
tion, that Deans and Chapters not having the cure of souls
were useless, and that it was proper to place the property of
such bodies in the hands of Commissioners, regard being had
to existing rights and interests.—(Cheers.)