The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-30 00:00:00

longing the discussion. They were novel. at the preamble of
the- Bill.
t Mr. HUME—As another opportunity would be afforded bins
on the presentation of a petition, he would not persevere. ' Th.
Hon. Member added, pointing across the House—" It "began
‘4l S. O'BRIEN, as a Protestant interested in the
welfare of the f.-Burch, would say that if this Bill was thrown
out in the other 1..1,:u45°) the Protestant Church in Ireland
H
would not survive three ye 7".
up his additional
The House then resumed.
On the motion of Lord MOR:I_ET the Bill was re-
committed. The Noble Lord brough
clauses respecting the payment of the money 'out of the Conso-
lidated Fund. He would then merely put clauses in
• the possession of the House. and reserve the Q.4eussion of
them till after they had had time to consider them.
Mr. HUME supposed the people of England would .not be
called upon to pay for the support of the Irish Church without
sooe hope being held out for their repayment. If he was int
he might say, "if you will have such a Church
pay for it. ".—(Loud cheers.) Before the resolution for the
loan of a milliOn that Church was agreed to, some hope had
been held out for its r: payment, now there was none.—( Cries
of " Hear, hear.") Sui sly the Commons of England at this
time of day will not agree that the support of that Church,
which was one of the greatest alatiles in the country, was to be
supported out of the pockets of !he people of England.
He hoped his Majesty's Government wetld give some security
for the repayment of this money.
Lord MORPET LI was understood to say that it would be
secured by a rent charged from the money aces :ling under the
provisions of the Bill.
Mr. CH ARLES BA RCL AY was not at all surprised that
this proposition should be made. Had Ministers prnposed, by
a separate measure, a grant of 50,000/. a year for the purpose
of promoting general education in Ireland, they would have
had his vote, as they had for the vote of 35,000/., the other
night, for a similar purpose. He would willingly grant
100,000/. a year for such an object ; but be could not allow
these resolutions to pass without protesting against the prin-
ciple of the Bill altogether.
The clause was then agreed to.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY had given notice to move the inser-
tion of a proviso, but he had since altered the terms of it ; he
hoped, however, that he should not be precluded on that ac-
count from bringing it forward. The proviso be intended to
move was, " that in every case where arrears of tithe for all or
any of the years 1831, 1832, 1833, and 1834, remained due,
th,,:e should be added to the rent-charge, proposed to be raised
on no land from which those arrears were due, a further per-
manent r.-nt-charge, at the rate of 4 per cent. on the amount
of the money advanced with respect to such arrears of tithe
due from such lands ; the produce of such additional rent-
charge to be
payable to the consolidated fund, in order to pro-
vide for the additional money that may be advanced, or be
necessary to be , advanced, to the owners of such tithes in

arrear."
LOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
now to pass, the Hon. and Learned
The CHANCEL
precluded from bringing forward
by allowing the resolutNlS.
Gentleman would not be
his motion hereafter.
that the Hon. and Learned
day for the discussion of
Lord JOHN RUSSELL ,ho., it would be necessary,
in order to avoid any inconvenien‘le,
Gentleman should name a certain*
his proposed amendment.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY would name. Friday next for that
purpose.
Mr. HUME said the Act of last session cuthorised a mil-
lion of money to be paid by certain instalmeNs to the Irish
clergy, on account of the' arrears of tithes due id them. A
number of individuals, lay and clerical, had availed themselves
of that Act, and had received upwards of 600,000/., in part
payment of arrears due to them. He wished to know if this •
money was to be repaid ; and if not, who were to be the
gainers by the advances? Were the tenants to profit by it,
or whom ? Were those who had already paid their tithes to
receive back their money ; or were they who had obeyed the
law to be in a worse situation than those who had. disobeyed it?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was un-
derstood to say that a very small sum only had been paid by
the tenants on account of the arrears; but of course those who
had paid could have no claim to have their money refunded,
as it was only the payment of a debt justly due from them.
Mr. HUME—The consequence then was, that those who
had complied with the law, were in a worse situation than
those who had not.
After a desultory conversation, in which several Members
took part, but which was wholly unintelligible in the gallery,
Mr. O'LOL-GHL AN explained that the claims of the
clergy had all been properly examined, under direction of the
Lord- Lieutenant.
Mr. FRENCH thought the Hon. Member for Middlesex
was quite right in his view of the question ; for his own part,
he did not object to the money, being disbursed for the benefit
of Ireland, but if they did give a bonus to that country it
ought to be equally divided.
POTTER said he was one of those who had objected
to the grant of one million of the public money for arrears of
tithe in 1833 ; he voted against the measure in all its stages,
frost; a conviction that it would never be repaid, and the reso-
lution before the -House was confirmatory of the opinion he
formerly entertained. It was true the Hoe, and Learned
Member, the Recorder of Dublin, warned the Rouse, that if
the repayment was expected it would be deceived. In ascer-
taining the perties who were in arrear for the payment of
tithe the greatest irregularity prevailed ; he would just men-
tion one instance— the Hon. Member for Armagh was posted
up, and returned as it defaulter to the great astonishment and
indignation of that hon. Gentleman, for he had always paid
his tithe regularly, and was ready to have paid the sum when
called for. This was tie way the funds of the country were
thrown away. One of the resolutions before the House
renders the consolidated fund lie,* to the payment of Irish
tithe. On behalf of those who had sent him to the House, he
would protest against the possible conOlngency of the funds of
the United Kingdom being applied to th,s support of the Irish
clergy ; as a Dissenter, he also objected to such an %pro
priation, and though most anxious to support the present Mi-
nisters, he would not, consistently with his duty, sanction the
public money being so appropriated.
Mr. D. BROWNE said that the sum of one million, and
168,0001. a year, ought not to have been thrown away, after
being taken out of the pockets of the people of England. It
had, however, been thrown away to consult their prejudices.
Now he would have no objection to repay the whole of that
money, and to give up the 30 per cent. of tithe, if the
people of England. would in their turn resign their preju-
dice.= on the subject of the Church of Ireland. Indeed, the
people of Ireland would themselves be willing in that case to
repay the million and give up the 30 per cent, ; their ob-
jection being:, not to the amount of the tithe, but to its appro-
priation.
Mr. se sipe bo,gged to ask, if the Bill were to be rejected
in another place, Telot was the use of any compromise at all?
( Hear, hear.) liaLy measures would never do. What had
they gained Ly them ? Lost a million of money, and they
were now as far from -the settlement of the question as
ever. He would be content to throw any sum of money,
with a fair or reasonable cospect of securing the peace
of Ireland. lie could save.it Otit of the military establish-
ments in one year.—( Hear, hear.) If there were no such
prospect, where was the use of 'flakiest; the sacrifice? The
question would be brought forward again, however, and they
would have another opportunity of expressing their opinion
upon it. "In the meantime" (continued Hen. Mem-
ber) " In the meantime let his Majesty's Ministers make up
their minds, and determine on the course they will be called
upon to pursue. Let them not fear that this measure will not
be passed in the Lords. Let me recommend them to make
the Bill perfect ; let them send it up in that shape to the
Lords, and let them throw it out if they dare.—(Great
cheering.) If, as the house was told the other night by
0,0 Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire (Lord Stanley)
thee' mere really determined to throw out the Bill, let the
Minisfees do their duty, and let the people of this country
speak eat-4-Cheers)—acid then let us see whether the
Commons will 'sear this misrule, or whether the peace and
welfare of the' enirs:;re shall be consulted.—( Renewed cheer-
ing.) If any snsastoses shall be adopted by the House
of Lords to secure the loss of the Bill by delay, let his Ma,
jesty's Ministers come to this w
determination—pass all our
Bills, adjourn the House, ond call it together hen the Lords
have made up their minds; 'out at no event, and under no cir-
cumstances, let them adjourn this House while measures are
taking to defeat either this measure or the Municipal Corpo-
rations Bill. The people of Englasol are determined to have
them both.—( Loud cheers.) And backed as his Majesty's
Ministers are by a majority in this Hous,s—and I am persuaded
lnotwithstanding all that has been said to the contrary) by a
arge majority out of the House, they will ise deserting their
duty to the people if they hesitate for one instant in the main-
tenance of those Reforms which the country has a right to
demand.—( Cheers.) I therefore do hope and trust that
Ministers will act like men, and that they will not be fright-
' cned by shadows."—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. FINCH said that the Hon. Member for Middlesex had
confounded two questions, which were in themselves entirely
separate and distinct—he meant the Irish Tithe Bill and the
Municipal Corporations Bill.—( Oh, oh.) Ha. denied that the
reople of England were prepared to go the lengths stated by
the Hon. Gentleman. He thought he would fiud, when the
forthecorning appeal was made to the people, that the constitu-
encv
of Nicidlcses would very unequivocally express their dis-
sent from tho opinions he had expressed..
s After a few ws".rds from Mr. HOWARD, which were not
heard—
Mr. 11 M E said his .`4''2anin was, that if all the salutary
g
reforms which the country Lad it right to expect as the result
of the reform in that House wer'SS to reou diated and thrown
out elsewhere; and if the public motley were .t.O be squandered
away, and the peace of the country disturbed b;' them, with-
out the slightest regard to the dictates of reason, lustier, or
common sense, it would be for the people of England to de-
termine for what purposes the privileges of either House were
granted.—( Cheers.) It would be for them to consider and to
act. How far the lion. Gentleman who spoke after him might
be correct, in his estimate of the opinions of the people, Ito
would not stay to inquire. Ile would on:s say that his belief
was very different from the impression pr'odceed on the mind
of the ikon. Member. " With regard to my .constituents,"
continued the Hon. Member, "if the constituency es! Middle..
sex disapt rove of the principles I now avow, or have cal.:Tessa
heretofore, all I can say is, that they will do very wrong if
they do not turn me out the very next time they have► an op..
portuuity.—( Loud cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman talks with
great solemnity of an appeal being made. Very well, the
sooner it is made the better. I have not the least objection to
its being made, I can assure him, though he may poSsiblt Fee
collect that the last appeal made by his friends to the voice of
the people of England was-attended with a very different re-i-
-sult from that which they anticipated.--(Loud, cheers,),- If
the Hon. Gentleman alludes to a similar appeatzd he adverts
to a forthcoming reneral-electicn—l hope:the peep%