The Sun.
London, England, 1835-09-02 00:00:00

11.11 g SUN', LONDON, WEDNESDAY, SP,PTEIViBER, 2, N:1;7),

having been conceived in the best spirit of protection. In re- '
moving the desperate and indefensible anomalies of that Church
—( Hear, hear)—in making a provision for those who per-
formed laborious duties in their vocation in that Church, out
of the proceeds unjustly enjoyed by those who did nothing, he
was convinced that justice would hereafter be done to their
motives, and that the justice and necessity of their course
would be vindicated from the pettifogging opposition offered to
it.--( Cheers.) Their good intentions would be seen--
Sir H. H ARD INGE—Ay, come to your good intentions

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt no
difficulty in meeting the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer upon
that point. He challenged him to show wherein had been
evinced a contrary feeling —wherein his Majesty's Govern-
ment had shown a want of good faith, and an anxious desire
to promote the real and permanent interests of that Church.
—(Cheers.) The time would come, when justice would be
done to them, he repeated, on this point, by the Ministers
themselves of that Church, by its professors, and by those who
were most attached to its doctrines.—( Renewed cheers.)
Sir HENRY HARDINGE had never heard a more un-
warrantable attack than that which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had just made upon him.—(Conservative cheers.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman, in a most sneering tone, had thought
fit to allude to him, and to impute pettifogging conduct to
him. Now, he (Sir H. Hardinge) begged to retort that ex-
_

pression on the Right Hon.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It was
not applied to you.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE—It made no difference whe-
ther the expression was applied to him or to those with whom
he acted. The Right Hon. Gentleman thought it was not a
Bill of Indemnity, because there had as yet been no case of
neglect on the part of the Government. He begged leave to
say that was not so, for proceedings were to have been taken
last November if the money had not been returned by the
clergy, or within three months after that date. He, there-
fore, had not committed the blunder imputed to him. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had also indulged in a discussion upon
the appropriation clause. His opinion upon that subject was,
that by all the principles that ought to guide honest or ho-
nourable men, the clergy of Ireland were bound to discounte-
nance and reject that provision, whatever the advantages to
themselves, in a personal point of view, the measure might
otherwise contain. In his opinion they had acted like sensi-
ble and honest men in resisting the fraud of converting eccle-
siastical property to secular uses, and in refusing the bait of
personal advantage offered to them as a bribe upon conscience.
—( Cheers.) He never would sanction such a principle.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured
the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer that nothing had been
further from his thoughts than to apply the epsithet " petti-
fogginr," to him. He should as soon have thought of a,plying
the title of " Gallant Officer" to the Archbishop of Canter-
bury as " pettifogger" to the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer.
He assured him that he meant no unkindness to him, and he
believed he had expressed none. The whole of his past life,
both public and private, might be offered as a guarantee of his
entertaining no unkind feeling towards the Right Hon. and
Gallant Officer. When, however, the Right Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer offered a direct interruption to him upon his de-
claring that if he had been a Minister of the Irish Church he
should have been in favour of the measure lately sent up to the
other House, he felt bound to enter upon the defence of his
own opinion.—( Hear, hear.) He had begun with a joke—
perhaps a bad one—but he did not wish to end in a different
humour from that in which he had begun the debate. With
reference to the question of indemnity he would say one
word. He had been told he ought to have come earlier, for
the Bill came into operatioh earlier. He begged leave to say
that while another measure was before the House, whilst the
Legislature was actually in deliberation upon a proposed mea-
sure upon the subject, it would have been contrary to Parlia-
mentary usages, as it was condemned by courts of law, to bring
such a Bill under the notice of the House.
Sir H. HA R DINGE explained. He complained of the
Right Hon. Gentleman taking occasion to attack him, when
be bad given no cause for it. His observations had not applied
to the Right Hon. Gentleman at all; but it was his frequent
practice when excited, to take the opportunity to make attacks
upon persons and parties to whom no reference had been made
by any one. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman would
do well to avoid that course for the future.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER disclaimed
having said anything to offend the Right Hon. and Gallant
Officer.

Sir H. HARDINGE—You did.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Then,
Sir, I say that I did not mean to give offence to the Right
Hon. and Gallant Officer, and there ends the matter. If I
had intended it, I should be ready to avow and defend my
conduct. But with reference to the advice offered to me by
the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer, I maybe allowed to tell
him that no one in this House stands more in need of such
advice than he does. I hope, therefore, he will apply it to
himself, and follow it.
Sir H. HARDINGE—I am utterly incapable of charg-
ing any Member of making an attack upon me, unless I be-
lieved be had made it. I did believe so in this instance ; but
I am bound to take the disclaimer of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN could assure the Right Hon.
and Gallant Officer, that if he was dissatisfied with what had
fallen from the lips of the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon
the subject of the Irish Church Bill, which his party in the
House cf Lords had had the rashness—he would not say the
malignity—( Cries of " Order")—he repeated the word, and
claimed his right to use it—if he was dissatisfied upon that
score, he could promise him ample ground of discontent if
the session lasted much longer. Let him look at the state
of the clergy in Ireland, and then say whether the act of
destroying that Bill was not an act of malignity—if not
in intention, in effect—and he would leave them to settle
the difference.— ( A laugh, and cries of " Order.) He was
pleased to see two English Members get warm upon this
subject, because he was glad to find that at length a ques-
tion connected with Ireland could rouse to the warmth of
anger the feelings of English Members. This occurrence
ought to mirk a new era for Ireland, auguring much good
in store. As an Irish Member, he hoped he should improve
in the opposite direction.—(Great laughter.) The Right Hon.
, and Gallant Officer had told the House, that the measure of
1833 was n ,enefit to the landowner. Nothing could more
clearly show the utter ignorance and incompetency of the
Right Hon and Gallant Officer for the situation be had
lately held with reference to that country. " We," said the
Hon. Member, " as landlords have gained nothing." He
utterly denied the accuracy of the assertion. It is one which
has been made over and over again, and refuted as often as
made. The question of tithes is entirely between the cler-
gyman and the occupier of the soil, and it is a piece of ab-
surdity in the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer to make a con-
trary statement. The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer talks
of indemnity. He says we do not want indemnity for not put-
ting in force the Bill of 1833. I believe him, Sir, but I can
tell him at the same time, he does want indemnity.—(Loud
cheers.) You (pointing to Sir H. Hardinge) are a great
and principal offender, for it was you and your party in the
other House that threw out the Bill of last year and the Bill
of this year, although you yourself actually brought forward
during your short term of office in the early part of the year,
a measure the precise counterpart of that which you were in-
strumental in rejecting last year.—( Cheers.) With what mo-
desty then can you show your face ? I will not term it hypo-
crisy, for I avoid using bard words.- How can you now come
forward and read a lecture to his Majesty's Government and
their supporters upon the state of the Irish clergy ? Having
turned out of office that party which was favourable to a set-
tlement of the Irish question, by means of Roman emis-
saries--(laughter)—you then bring forward that very mea-
sure which you had repudiated and stifled when brought for-
ward by those you had displaced. I can tell you, Sir, in the
opinion of the people of Ireland, it is the Right Hon. and
Gallant Officer and his friends that stand in need of a Bill of
indemnity. But the people of Ireland look, not with con-
tempt, for they have not so strong feeling on the subject,
but with placid indifference at the game you are playing
against them. I will not call it thimble-rigging that they
are at, but I think it is a deadly game of hazard they are en-
gaged in.—( Loud cheers.) The Right Hon. and Gallant
Officer and his party may find it dangerous to play too long
with the passions, and feelings, and interests of the people of
Ireland. We will not suffer you to continue it much longer.
Officer though you are, and able in the field, it may be well to
bear in mind that we are eight millions.—( Cries of " Oh, oh,"
from the Opposition benches.) I repeat, Sir, that we will not
suffer it. The House of Lords has done nothing good for Ire-
land. You yourself have shown your total incapacity.—(Cries
of " Order, order !") I contend I am in order if the indivi-
dual is not named.— (No, no, no.) Well, then, the Gallant
Officer himself, when in power, brought in a Bill which showed
him totally and absolutely incapable of conducting the affairs
of Ireland from his total ignorance of the subject.—(Cheers.)
The Gallant Officer is another instance of the absurdity of the
notion, that good soldiers make good Statesmen. I can only
say that several instances have proved the reverse of that maxim.
Sir HENRY HARDING E—l certainly do not think it
necessary to defend myself against a charge of absurdity
brought in a speech in itself so truly absurd.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN (with warmth)—He may say
that I am absurd—l may be absurd, and that may be better
than affected. But for my part, I would prefer being polite
rather than impertinent.—(Loud cries of " Chair !" from all
parts of the House.)
Mr. BERNAL (the Chairman)—The, Hon. Member has
no doubt used language which he cannot justify, either as con-
sistent with Parliamentary usage, or the ordinary customs of
society. I hope be will say that he did not mean to use an
offensive expression.
After a pause, Mr. H. GRATTAN rose—lf the Right
Hon. and Gallant Member will say, that by using the word
"absurdity" he did not mean to give me offence, I will make
a similar statement ; but not otherwise.
Mr. BERNAL—I have a duty to perform, which, however
painful, I shall not scruple to carry into execution. I cannot
sit in this Chair and allow language such as has been used to
pass unnoticed.
Mr, C URTE IS made a few observations in an under tone
of voice. He was understood to urge on the consideration of
Sir H. Hardinge, that absurdity was not a term that could be
used in Parliamentary language.
Mr. WO DE HOUSE—The discussion in the previous part
of it was enlivened by comic expressions. The employment
of the term " absurd," under such circumstances, would not be
deemed a flagrant violation of the rules of the House. The
word " impertinent." however, I have never heard used in this
House without the Member being called on for an apology. I
hope that my Hon. Friend ,will adopt the usual course upon
this occasion, bearing in mind that his apology is to the House
itself, and not to an individual.
Colonel PE RCEVAL.---I appeal to the Hon. Member
(Mr. Grattan), whether he did not first apply the word ab-
surdity to my Gallant Friend ( Sir H. Hardinge)? Did he
Aiot speak of bins as a good officer in the field, but say that it

was an absurdity to suppose that therefore he was calculated to
make a good statesman?
Mr. H. GRATTAN—I said it was absurd to suppose that
kecause he was a good soldier he was therefore a good states-
man. I must however say, that the manner of the Right
Hon. Gentleman was more offensive than his matter, and
especially his throwing himself into a fantastic air.—(Cries of
" Order.")
Lord PALMERSTON—No one accustomed to sit in this
House can fail to be aware that the word used by my Hon.
Friend is one which is not fit to be used in debate.—( Hear,
hear.) That being so, my Hon. Friend's regard for him-
self, will make him take the first opportunity of setting
himself right. It is due to his own dignity that he should
do so ; and the more he respects himself the more anxious
he will be to set himself right with the House at the earliest
possible opportunity.
Mr. A. GRATTAN—If the Right Hon. and Gallant
Officer will say that his remarks were not meant to be offensive
in manner to me, I shall be ready to do all that can be re-
quired.—(Cries of " No, no.")
Mr. HAWES : I certainly understand my Hon. Friend
to have been the first to use the word " absurd." , I, therefore,
hope he will get up upon this occasion.
Sir E. COD RINGTON : I think my Hon. Friend ought
to do what is required by the House. I ask his compliance as
a personal favour to myself.
Mr. FRENCH : I have no hesitation in saying that I think
my Hon. Friend ought to withdraw the offensive expression
he has used. If I were giving advice out of this House, that
is the advice I should give ; and here I cannot be expected to
give other.
Mr. H. GRATTAN : All that I want to know is, whether
the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer meant by the language
he used, or the manner of his delivery of that language, to give
me offence ? If my Hon. Friend beside him (Colonel Per-
ceval) will say that it was not meant offensively, then I will re-
.

tract that expression.
Colonel PE RCEVAL : I have no difficulty in stating that
I do not think the expressions of my Right Hon. and Gallant
Friend were intended to convey personal offence.
Mr. H. GRATTAN : Then, Sir, as my Hon. Friend says
the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer did not mean to apply of-
fensive epithets to me, I certainly did not mean to apply any
to him.--( Heat', hear, hear).

After a pause—
Mr. FRENCH said, I think, Sir, that we have a right to
expect from the Right Hon. and Gallant Member opposite,
a declaration that he does not intend carrying this matter
further.
Mr. BERNAL : I understand that the Hon. Member
(Mr. Grattan) has stated that no offence was intended. I
have therefore only to express to the Right Hon. and Gallant
Member that I conceive he ought to rise. I make this ob
servation kindly but firmly.
Sir H. H A EWING E—l am always. disposed, Sir, to bow
to the decision of the Chair in this House. I cannot, how-
ever, in this instance 'understand that the Hon. Member has
retracted the offensive word that he used—l mean that h.. his
not without conditions retracted it. He consents to withdraw
a certain offensive expression inferentially, but I do not sac-
tion his inference. I expect an absolute, unconditional with-
drawal of the expression. Then, and not till then, can Ibe
satisfied.—( A silence of some minutes ensued, followed by
cries of " Chair r')
Mr. BE RNA L—After the expression of opinion by Mem-
bers on both sides of the House, I had hoped the matter ssould
be allowed to rest where it is, without going further. If it
should be otherwise, I have but one duty to perform.
Colonel LEITH HAY said that as the Hon. Member for
Meath bad declared that be retracted the expression com-
plained of, he could not see why his Hon. and Gallant Friend
should not say that he was satisfied.
Dr. NICHOLL thought that the offence having been of-
fered originally to the Committee, and the Committee having
declared that it had been purged by the retractation, his Right
Hon. Friend ought equally to consider it so as towards himself.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
all that could be asked from the Hon. Member for Meath, had
been conceded by him ; an appeal had been made to the
House, as to the construction to be put .on a word used, and
the House had distinctly stated that it was unparliamentary.
An appeal had then been made as to the interpretation to be
placed on the retractation of that expresSion, and he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) took it to be understood that
the retractation had been made in an unqualified manner, and
without limitation.
After a few words from Major FANCOURT, Mr. FRENCH, and
Mr. HERMES,
Mr. BE RN AL conceived that what had been stated by the
Hon. Member for Meath was a retractation of the expression
which he had used ; such it had seemed to him, and he deemed
therefore that it would be satisfactory to the feelings of the
Hon. and Gallant Oflicer.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON observed, that what had been
stated, must be satisfactory to his Hon. and Gallant Friend,
and he trusted, therefore, that the matter would not go further.
Mr. WARBURTON should move that the Chairman re-
port progress.
Mr. GLADSTONE most earnestly entreated and adjured
the Right' Hon. Gentleman to express himself satisfied with
the declaration, as almost every Hon. Member considered it
satisfactory.,
Sir HENRY HARDINGE—I understand this to be a re-
tractation, unequivocal, unqualified, and without condition. If
I hear that that is your opinion, Sir, and if it be not denied in
my presence, then I am perfectly ready to accept what I under-
stand to be the lion. Member's retractation. But unless that
be the case, I certainly adhere to my former cpiHion. I repeat
that, if I understand that it is not denied, I am willing to say
that I am satisfied—( Hear, hear)--and that without that un-
conditional retractation I certainly cannot be satisfied.
Mr. WARBURTON said that it appeared to him that the
question as to the retractation being unqualified was a point
which ought to be left to the decision of the Chair.
An HO-N. MEMBER hoped that the lion. Member for Meath,
who had it in his power to settle the whole question in a single
moment, would rise and acquiesce in the decision of the Chair,
as to the interpretation to be placed on his retractation. For
his own part, he did not conceive it to be an unqualified retrac-
tation, though on that point he was perfectly ready to bow to
the decision of the Chair.
Mr. BE RNA 14 then put the question that he -report pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again, when
Sir -H. HARDINGE said—lf I am to understand it to
be your decision, Sir, that the retractation was unqualified,
then I am quite ready to allow that this affair shall pass no
further.
The CHAIRMAN had already stated his opinion, and
could only repeat that, in his opinion, the expression which had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Meath had been retracted.
Sir H. HARDINGE—If I understand that to be the feel-
ing of the Committee—( Hear, hear)—l do not wish to push
the matter further, understanding that it is an unconditional,
unqualified retractation. If I hear the slightest indication to
the contrary, I shall entertain the same feeling.
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to, and
the House resumed.
CONSOLIDATION FUND (APPROPRIATION)
BILL.

Mr. BE RNAL brouelt up the Report of the Committee
on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill, and moved
that it be received.
Mr, HLT M E said, that he must object to their,receiving this
Report at such a period of the night. He had understood that
the appropriation clause was not to be introduced into the Bill
until Wednesday. It had, however, been made last night at
a late hour, when few were in the House. As he wished to
have an opportunity of discussing the matter, as it was impor-
tant that it should be discussed, he hoped the Report would be
postponed until to-morrow.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a few
words, which were nearly inaudible. He was understood to
observe, that there would be no objection to a postponement,
if any proceedings were to be taken upon the subject of the
clause.

After some further observations from Mr. Huwa and some
other HON. MEMBERS, which were not heard in the gallery,
owing to the noise and confusion which prevailed in the House,
the receiving of the Report was postponed (as we understood)
to this day.
Mr. BROTH ERTON then moved the adjournment of the
House.
GENERAL DARLING'S CONDUCT COMMITTEE-
Mr. TOOKE brought up the Report of this Committee.
The Report was then read by the Clerk at the table ; but
all we could collect from it was, that in the cases of the two
soldiers, Sudds and Thompson, the conduct of General Dar-
ling had been in nothing inconsistent with his duty as a public
functionary, or with his honour as an officer and a gentleman ;
and that, on the subject of the other allegations, he stood
equally acquitted.
Sir H. HARDINGE proposed, that as General Darling
had been for some time subjected to the grossest imputations,
and as the Report completely exonerated him, it would be but
an act of justice towards him, with the view of removing the
impression which had been created by these imputations as
soon as possible, the Report should be printed and circulated
with the votes.
The SPEAKER said there was no reason for departing
from the ordinary course. The Report might be printed and
delivered as speedily as possible.
Sir H. HARDINGE wished it to be printed separately,
and circulated immediately.
The SPEAKER replied that that object would be secured
by the ordinary course of proceeding.
Sir H. HARDINGE was fully satisfied with that course,
then, as his object would be obtained.
Mr. AGLIONBY observed that there was an allegation in
the Report that no evidence had been offered in support of
the other charges against General Darling besides those in-
volved in the case of Sudds and Thompson. That was true
as a matter of fact ; but the inference ought not to be drawn
from it that the Committee had come deliberately to the same
opinion on the subject of the other charges, as in the case of
the two soldiers.
Mr. TOOKE bad put the question in Committee, whether
there was any evidence to be offered on the subject of the other
allegations, and none being tendered, a Resolution was handed
to him and agreed to, to the effect that it should be reported
that none such had been offered.
Dr. BOWRING was proceeding to address the House,

when
Dr. NICHOLL rose to order, and said that the House had
nothing to do with the individual opinions of Members of tho
Committee.
Mr. TULK remarked that the Committee had been unfairly
dealt with. After many Members had left it, an addition
had been made to the Report, which had not been contem-
plated by them.
The Report was then laid on the table.
On the renewed motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, the
Howe adjourned at a quarter to twelve o'clock.