The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLHIAMEI\T

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY).

The LORD Ca . NCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

POLICE OP SCOTLAND.
The Earl of DERBY said the report with respect to. the
Scotch police could not be laid on the table bdfore Easter.
The LORD CHANCELLOR postponed the second
reading of the Winding-up Act till Thursday week.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, at the request of Lord
Campbell, postponed the second reading of the Vexatious
Indictments Bill, and the Juries in Civil Causes Bill, until
the Ist of March.

CRIME IN IRELAND.
Lord CLEMENTS moved that a humble address be
presented to her Majesty for a return of the names
of all persons assassinated in Ireland from the
20th of May, 1836, to the 31st of December, 1868 ;
the date of such assassination; the names of all persons
who have been wounded or attempts made to assassinate,
for the same period ; the date of such attempt; the
county in which such persons resided ; the names
of persons arrested, if any, on suspicion of
such assassination or attempted assassination; by
whose order committed; the informations, by whom
taken, if any; date of imprisonment; if brought to trial
state the date ; if convicted state the date ; if acquitted
state the date; the sentence; and if sentence was carried
into effect or commuted.
Lord DERBY said he fully expected that the noble lord,
in moving for the extensive returns he had done, would
certainly have explained his reasons for doing so. The
returns moved for were most extraordinary, and would
put the country to a very great expense for no useful pur-
pose. He must object to the returns moved for, and in
doing so he trusted their lordships would support him.
Lord CLEMENTS did not expect there would be the
slightest opposition to the return. He was unfavourable
to putting more power into the hands of the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland than he at present possessed, especially as
neither ho nor his officials had been successful in their efforts
to protect life and property in that country. There had
been of late a very great increase of outrages in Ireland,
while unfortunately very few persons committing them had
been discovered and brought to justice.
Lord MONTEAGLE hoped the noble lord (Clements)
would withdraw his motion.
Viscount DUNGANNON thought the Executive Go •
vernment of Ireland had done its duty, and he looked upon
the return moved for as perfectly unnecessary. He
looked upon it as an undeserved reflection upon
the Lord;Lieutenaut of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of DESART objected to the return being
granted. The police of Ireland he considered had acted of
late in a most judicious manner.
Lord CLEMENTS said, as his motion was so strongly
opposed, there was no other course open for him but to
withdraw his motion. He certainly had not intended it as
a reflection upon the Executive Government of Ireland.
The motion was then, by leave of the house, withdrawn.
THE MILITIA COMMISSION.
Earl GREY asked her Majesty's Government when the
report of the Militia Commission would be presented to
their lordships ?
Lord HARDINGE said he could not at the present
moment give the noble earl any defininite answer to his
question. He begged to assure him that the Royal Com-
missioners would lose no time in their inquiries, and the
report would be preknted at the earliest possible moment.
The noble earl might rest perfectly satisfied that the various
militia regiments already embodied were in a high state of
efficiency, and that many of them were equal in discipline
and character to those of the line.
Earl GREY said that, according to present arrange-
ments, the expenses of a militia regiment. were about as
much as those of the line, while they were not so effective ;
and:he looked on the present state of affairs as an injustice
both to the regiments of the line and the militia. One of
the fitst faults of the system was the facility it offered to
men of enlisting into two or even three regiments of militia,
and receiving a bounty from each. The disembodied militia
was perfectly useless as far as defensive operations were
concerned, since they would not be re-organised in less than
a fortnight, and in case of invasion or war breaking out,
the first fortnight was precisely the period when their ser-
vices would be most required. He placed the highest value
upon commissions of inquiry, but they required to be con-
ducted with care and judgment; he was afraid, however,
that such was not the case with the Militia Commission,
He objected to the frequency with which csarmissions
were appointed. (Hear, hear.) At present they had four
or five commissions sitting upon subjects which it was the
bounden duty of the Government to inquire into. He looked
upon the Government as a standing commission, and he
deprecated the system of deputing inquiries to commissions
which properly belonged to the Government itself.

The 2Zarl of DERBY said that he was always ready to
listen with great respect to anything the noble earl stated
on a subject to which he had devoted great attention, but
he had ziot expected from the noble earl's notice merely to
ask a question, that the noble earl would have entered into,'
discussion as to the reasons for referring matters to stand-

ing commissions generally, and as to the whole constitu-
tion of the militia, or that the noble earl would, on the pre-
sent occasion, repeat arguments the natural conclusion
from which was that the noble earl wished to get rid of the
militia, and have no force of that kind. Now, whatever
objections there might be to the reference of matters of
every description to commissions of inquiry, the noble earl
could hardly object to the course pursued in the present in-
stance, because in the course of last session, when this ques-
tion was under discussion, the noble earl expressed in their
lordships' house great gratification that this particular sub-
ject was about to be referred to an inquiry by commission,
and only regretted that the commission was not of a wider
and more extensive character than that proposed by the Go-
vernment. (Hear.) Again, the noble earl said,—and he
(Lord Derby) valued the admission,—that inquiries by com-
mission were the most valuable means of obtaining useful in-
formation for the guidance of the Government. He must
say that that general principle was strangely at variance
with the general complaint now made by the noble earl
against the appointment of commissions; and the declara-
tion made last year by the noble earl was equally at vari-
ance with his present condemnation of the appointment of a
commission in this particular case, (Hear.) He was not now
about to enter into a discussion respecting the merits or de-
merits of the militia; but he would venture to say that in the
hour of difficulty and danger which this country had passed
through, the militia was found to be a most powerful
auxiliary to the army and defence to the country. (Hear,
hear.) If the noble earl was right in his argument this
country ought at all times to have a force ready at a mo-
ment's notice; even when there was no probability of war,
for the defence of the country, it was quite clear that in
that ease the militia system must be abandoned; and there
must be, whether it was wanted or not, a large increase of
the regular army, sufficient to meet, a sudden and unex-
pected emergency. Their lordships need not be told
that at present a large portion of the army was engaged
in India. He was speaking in the presence of an illustrious
duke (the Duke of Cambridge) when he stated that there
were 73 or 75 battalions of European infantry in India, and
altogether the Europeans acting in arms in India amounted
to about 90,000 or 100,000 men. If, therefore, the principle
were sound that it was necessary to maintain a sufficient
army at home to meet any sudden demand that might be
made by what he considered the most improbable of all con-
tingencies, and at the same time to carry on the requisite
reliefs, Parliament must be prepared to abandon the militia
and enormously to increase the regular ai my. The present
discussion had come on quite unexpectedly, and he might
say, quite irregularly, as there was no question before the
house, and no one could have expected from the noble earl's
notice that it would have arisen ;hut he must say, in refer-
ence to the complaints made by the noble earl to the effect
that there were to be no improvements, and no measure
brought forward by the Government, that the militia
commission was only appointed at the latter end of
last session. If a commission had been appointed,
as the noble earl had suggested, composed of two or three
individuals, and if they had proceeded, in the absence of
any evidence, to express their own opinions, and offer their
own recommendations, such a course would have been liable
to more just reproaches than those levelled by the noble
earl against the course pursued. (Hear, hear.) What was
the emirs* taken by the Government ? They desired not to
do away with the militia. If they had, a commission of
this kind would not have been the proper mode of proceed-
ing. But what the Government desired to obtain was in-
formation from practical men, as to the practical defects of
the present system, the means of improving the militia, and
a practical way of making the staff of the disembodied militia
more available than it was at present. The Government also
wanted an inquiry relative to the frequency of desertions
from the militia, and the frequency of re-enlistments, and
there was not one of the subjects referred to by the
• ionnu for
earl which had not been referred to the commission
their report. The commission was composed, notis ofs sonic
three or four persons, wholly unconnected and unac-
quainted with the subject, as, perhaps, the noble earl would
have recommended, but comprised officers of high standing
and distinction of the regular forces, and all the most expe-
rienced colonels of militia regiments, whose
knowledge of
the system would enable them to give the most valuable
(Hear, hear.) That was the course
assistance' and advice.
which the Government thought fit to take, and for which,
until the present moment, he flattered himself that the
Government had the sanction of the noble earl's high autho-
ty (Hear, hear.) The commission had inquired into
ri.
all the points on which the noble earl thought the system
at present deficient, and he did not think that the noble
earl was justified in assuming that the commission would
take a long time to make its report. Their lordships would,
indeed, have a right to complain if the Government, after
appointing a commission, and when its report was expected
in six weeks or two months' time, had brought forward
measures of their own devising without waiting for the re-
sult of the deliberations Of the committee. (Hear, hear.)
He trusted that their lordships would not think that either
in the appointment or instructions, or composition of the
commission, the Government had been guilty of any dere-
liction of duty ; but they would have been guilty of a dere-
liction of duty, if they had proceeded to legislate without
more perfect information than they possessed last year, and
at a moment whbn they were about to obtain full inform' a-
tion. (Hear, hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE denied that his noble friend (Earl
Grey) was guilty of any inconsistency. His statement that
evening was quite in accordance with his language in the
discussion last year. It was then admitted on both sides of
the house that there were defects in the system of the mi-
litia, and that a properly constituted commission was the
best mode of dealing with it. His noble friend now com-
plained that the constitution of the commission was not
likely to lead to a speedy settlement of the question, and
that was quite clear from the answer of the noble viscount
(Hard inge). The commission had now been in eiistence nine
months, and had still an enormous mass of business to get
through. His noble friend had also referred to the number
of commissions now sitting. He (Earl Granville)
ha idly
knew a subject which had not been so referred. They
six or seven commissions sitting on different subsjteieotns eonfleeted with the navy and army. The onlydeuncy
con-
nected with the Colonial-office which presencote
(the lonian Islands) had been referred t nutissidoinfteicrulintya
manner which was hardly legal,
that the noble
conferred ender hin ,
and it seemed such extra-
ordinary powers had been
nt had lined to give any
earl at the head of the Govern
otuhled
bbuespthreespsa
or edf
theto
explanation of his acts, bute usrutnatl.eedHhealwf
explain himself on his return. Half
mhfissusieobnie
fHrieeuddid,
Home-office was now in tt_hethhiasnpdrsuo4
not find so much fault wi h
for he had so little confidence in her Majesty's present ad-
visers that he was d of any delay which prevented them
• lad
subjects.
from dealing
The Duke owfiltthlniMOND, as chairman of the commis-
sion, said it was impossible more could have been done
during the recess. He should like that the noble earl (Earl
Grey) would come before the commission, as he could, no
doubt, give them valuable information, and he would pro-
mise that his examination would not be extended beyond a
day or two. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Earl GREY said he would have no objection to give any

information he possessed upon the subject. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped.
TRIAL BY JURY.
On the motion of Lord WENSLEYDALE a return was
ordered of the number of civil cases in Which juries had
been locked up to consider their verdict.
Their lordships then adjourned.