The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-17 00:00:00

religion free. liis opposition to the system was easily •
;rounded asn the fact, that by the system the Holy Scrip-
tyres were not to be taught unmutilated.
Lord ALTHORP felt called on to put it to Han. Gen.
tieman anti the House, whether they ought to confirms
this debate upon the presentin,4 of a petition to
the exclusion of the other business which st.-tod by
appointment, and particularly as he had `ertst;aged
to close the Committee of Supply at half-past
eight this evening ? It was most iml.-.)rtant that the Esti-
mates should be proceeded with, and con.4equently he put
it to the candour and fairness of those who beard him,
whether they ought not to allow the regular business 'o
go on?
Captain CORDON had intended going further into
the subject, tut in Consequence of what had fallen from
the Noble Lord would abstain at present, reserving to
himself the opportunity of going into it hereafmr.
Captain JONES and others agreed to postpone their
observations on the subject.
LORD CHANCELLOR'S SALARY.

Sir E. SUGDEN wished to know whether it was the
Noble Lord's intention to bring forward any proposition
respecting the Lord Chancellor's salary? Whatever in-
formation on this subject was to be g;ven, he thought the
douse ought to be put in possession of it without delay.
_(Hear, hear.) It was no particular hostility to
that Noble and Learned person that induced him now
to bring forward the subject, lt,ot loecause every person
must feel that he ought to have an income befitting his
great office.
Lord ALTHORP said it was intended to place the Lord
Chancellor's salary in the Consolidated Fund; but he
had considered it would be better to have a separate Act
of Parliament for the judicial salaries. A Bill to that
effect was now under con,ideratior, and he hoped on an
early day to be able to apprise the House of its contents.
Mr. BURGE wished to know whether the recall of Lord
helonore winch had been sent out by hi, Maj,sty's Govern-
ment, bad been sent out previous to the occurrence of the
disturbances in Jamaica ?
Lord ALTHORP replied that the recall load been sent
out before the disturbances occurred.
The House then resolved itself into a
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

Sir J. GRAHAM said, that having so recently entered
into a full explanation, in moving the Navy Estimates, he
felt it unnecessary to do more on this occasion than state,
t hat in the branch of effective service, for this year, he had
been able to wake a saving of 971,0001. He moved
that 27,000 men he ernpl,l-ed for the sea service for the
ensuing year.

Sir G. CLERK contended that the Right Han. Baronet
had not made so extensive a reduction as he had stitted.
He thought that, upon examination, the saving would he
found not to exceed 200,0001. There was a reduction for
which the Right Hon. Baronet took credit, which on in-
vestigation would, he conceived, prove more a nominal than
substantial reduction—he referred to the reduction of
the office of Paymatiter of Marines, and the six clerks
attached to that office. Now it appeared, notwith-
standing this alleged saving to the public, that the Pay,
master of Marines still enjoyed his salary under the name
of Inspector-General of Marines. One part of the dimi-
nution of expenditure had been effected by transferring the
protection of the coast against smugglers from the Admi-
ralty to the Board of Cestoins. He could not agree with
those who considered the abandonment of the coast blockade
an advisable measure. on this subject he must cum-
plain of the very inaccurate manner in which the returns of
the number of Naval half-pay officers heldints civil appoint.
ments bad been made to the House. On the' union of the
offices of Vice-President of the Board of Trade and the
Treasurer of the Navy in the person of the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. P. Thomson), ho (Sir G. Clerk)
had expressed his opinion of the impossibility of the Right
Hon. Gentleman being able to devote a suitable portion of
his time to the duties of the latter. The returns of which
he now complained, and which proceeded from the depart-
ment of the Treasurer of the Navy, fully justified his anti-
cipation. They abounded in errors, as an illustration of
which he would particularize the insertion of the name of
Sir G Cockburn, as Major-General of Marines, while no j
mention whatever was made of the General, Lieutenant-
General, or Colonels.
Sir J. GRAHAM said '.hat thequestion of ti,e abolition
of the marine had been fully considered last session, and
he maintained that 'Ministers were clearly entitled to take
credit for the reduction of the office of paymaster) which
was a civil appointment. With respect to the office of
Inspector-General of the Marines, it was necessary to be
preserved, and he had not the slightest doubt that its
abolition was impracticable. As to the transfer of the
protection of the coast to the Board of Customs, its ex-
pediency bad been justified by the approbation of the
he id.. of the department with whose concerns it we.s im-
mediately connected. lie admitted that the Admiralty
hail in consequence bren obliged to keep a largsr perma-
nent force on board the guard ships, but by this they
were enabled to maintain, at all times, a squadron fully
equipped for sea, which squadron afforded the men the
advantage of six months' exercising. The Right Hon.
Gentleman, in reference to the returns of naval half-pay
officers holding civil appointments, proceeded to eulogize
the Right Hon. Treasurer of the Navy; and stated that
he would stand competition with the most able of his
predecessors in that office. Errors of a trifling amount
might be made in these returns, owing to their not having
undergone his inspection ; but he was certain that as to
his cash account the strictest investigation needed not be
dreaded. He thought it necessary to state, that in the
return in question the officers holding civil appointments
in the Coast Guard, with their half-pay, were those who
had appointment previous to the order of the Committee
in 1829. The officers who had been appointed since that
time were not allowed to draw their half-pay.
Mr. P. THOMSON admitted there was an error in
the return, and that W4B the insertion of the Gallant Ad-
niirai's (Sir G. Cockburn) name as a General to Marines.
Mr. HUME expressed his concurrence in the reductions
which Sir James Graham had made in the naval estimate.,
and was only sorry 'hat they were not larger. The sums
expended since ISI6, on the building of ships, wa.
nearly thirty millions, and he would undertake to build a
navy fur six millions. Whilst a new species of force was
growing up, he considered every farthing th at was ex-
pended on the building of line of-battle ships. on the old
principle, asso much money thrown away. He also corn•
piiined of the grounds on which some recent superannua-
tions had been made. A gentleman had been superannu-
ated within the last four months, who was quite as efficient
es he was ; and lie did not suppose that any body would
turn him out of the House for not being an efficient man.
--(A laugh.) He contended that, notwithstanding the
reductions which the First Lord of the Admiralty had al-
ready made in these estimates, greater reductions might
still be made in them ; as, for instance, in the reduction
of the number of men, end especially of marines employed,
in the expense of building ships, in the victualling depart-
ment, in the pay-office, which he thought might be abo-
lished alto:.ether, and also in the list of 7,uperannuations.
He called the particular attention of the Noble Lord oppo-
site to this litter head of expense : if something were not
doue to reduce it, he should be compelled to bring on the
motion for a revision of the Superannuatien Act, of which
be had already given notice.
Sir G. COCKIIIJRN contended that the coast blockade
was of great service in providing experienced sailors for
his Majesty's ships, when it was-necessary that they should
be instantly manned to meet any sudden emergency. Ile,
quoted the testimony of several eminent naval officers to
prove that the coast blockade men were found efficient
sailors at once, and that they could bit a target better even
than the men of the marine artillery. The marine force
which combined the ifseharee of the duties both of seamen
and soldiers, e ere not to be created in a day, and be felt
satisfied that not less than 10,000 men should be kept up
for that service, to be ready in the event of a war. In
this respect he differed from the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex. The marine force to this extent should not only he
kept up, but should be sent to Gibraltar, Bermuda, and
other marine stations, where they would afford relief to
the military, but would be ready fur service in case of a
war requiring the equipment of a fleet. He made these
übservatious because he thought that the reductions- which
had .already taken place in this branch of the service had
been improperly made.
After a few words from Mr. CRESSET PELIIA3I, which
dill not reach us,
Sir HENRY HARDINGE conceived the present dis-
cussion owed its origin in a great degree to the returns
which he himself had moved for in October last, when he
took an opportunity of complaining that the officers on
the hall-pay of the army were not permitted to hold civil
offices of emolument also—a boon which had been extended
to officers of the navy also in the receipt of half. pay. He
appealed to the House whether the case of the army had
a
not been materially altered, and he was of opinion it was
en important point for the House, in 1832, not to legislite
differently with respect to the army to the course pursued
by Parliament in 1820, when the services of the army
were fresh on the minds and memories of the country and
of Parliament, and he hoped the same boon would be ex-
tended to the officers of the one e: evict as was proposed
for those of the other. It appeared from the customs and
coast guard returns, that since 1825 no less than 99 naval
officers had been appointed to civil situations without losing
their half-pay, and yet an officer of the army conld not
hold the one withont the surrender of the other. He
would not now trespass further upon the attention of the
HOUICS as it was his intention to bring the matter before

Parliament on the occasion of the %troy estimates, or cti
the Appropriation Act.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that the appointments to
which the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman ha.l al-
luded, and of which he had complained) were made pre-
vious to the order of council) dated the Ist of January,
1529, and it should be hntre in mind that the crmy half-
pay tvas regulated by the appropriation. act, while the half-
pay of the navy was regulated by the order of council to
which he had referred. He would not pl-dge hirns::df in
any way on this question, hut he would e?4,',lre the Piglit
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman the subject should have liis
attentive consideration.

After a shurt 'cenversation, in which Sir fir.r.-ttY Hmt-
DINCE, Sir JAMES GR4HA3I, and Mr. HUMS took part,
Sir JOHN HORHOUSE said, that allusion havin4
been made to the ervici with Which he had the honour to
he connected, he felt himself bound to state, that not with-
sianding hiri having been a long or a short time in office,
be never would desert either the iott'rests of the army, or
those of the public,—intereSts which he was sure would
not be found to be at variance.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY would never consent to a
reduction of the army, with a view to increase the marine
force, for such a change could not be productive of either
benefit or advantage to the public.
Captain YORIKE coatend.,4 against any reduction at
ail, and that the marines were the very last portion of the
service to which reduction should be applied.
The Clairrnan then put the question, that 2`:,000 men
be employed for the sea service fer the year eadin4 the
31st of March, 1833, incleditig'9,ooo marines, which was
greed to.
The sow' of 531,17.5/. was then granted for the wages
of ti.;, above seamen and marines, being at the rate of V.
'7s. per man per month.
The House then renuied, and the report seas ordered
to be received on Mondav next.