The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-23 00:00:00

bich heinsisted was any thing but that of a man of honour.
InsiCad of his fortune being it by the proceedings of that
House, he thought he would be found the Parliamentary
agent of every borough in the county on future occasions.—
(C,ies of " Oh, oh.") The petitioner stated that the wit-
messes had abfronded of their own accord, and not by
any contrivance of the petitioner; and yet the evidence of Mr.
Clipperton and other witnesses before the Committee, was di-
rectly contrary to this statement. The Hon. Member read
several extracts from the petition, and from the minutes of
evidence, to show the variation between the two.
3ir JOHN W R OTT E SLE Y would move that the debate
be adj(eirued till Friday next.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY was ready to vote for the discharge
of Mr. Ciipperton, Mr. Sparrowe, or Mr. Any-body-else, who
might have been committed in this instance; because, after
allowing the great criminals to escape, he looked upon it as a
mere mockery and parade of justice to be visiting punishment
upon the beads of the small fry.
Mr. RICHARDS said, although the Hon. Member for
Southwark assumed to be the friend of the working classes
and the pc:or, yet with all due respect he would ask that lion.
Member what good he had ever done for the poor in his life?
—(Laughter.) I (said Mr. Richards) employ scores of work-
ing people, and have done so for yearS, for the benefit of them-
selves, and certainly to the advantage of—( Loud laughter).—
my own character.—( Renewed laughter.) I beg the Hon.
Member will therefore in future deal with more respect to-
wards Gentlemen on this aide'of the House.—(Laughter.)
Lord JOHN RUSSEL concurred in the suggestion that
this debate should be adjourned till Friday.
Mr. FRESHFIELD, in explanation, said if he bad ad-
dressed the House with undue warmth, he begged pardon, but
he confessed it.at he felt warmly on the subject. The Hon.
Member for Ipswich had used the term " quibbling ;" if that
Hon. Member meant to apply that term to him (Mr. Fresh-
field), he begged, with ail the indignation he could express,
to tell the Hon. Member that he was as incapable of quibbling
as the Hon. Member himself.
Mr. RIGBY WA SON addressed the House amidst loud
cries of " Spoke, spoke." He did not think the language he
bad used, except by a very forced construction, could be made
applicable to the Hon. Member ; and no Hon. Member had a
right to put that construction upon any Hon. Member's lan-
guage for the purpose of expressing his indignation at it.
Lord DARLINGTON was astonished at the course taken
by the Hon. Member for Ipswich in this matter. It was with
extreme regret that he saw any Hon. Member in this House
acting with that vindictive spirit which that Hon. Member bad
exhibited. He (Lord Darlington) was sorry that the Hon.
Member was tempted to take the course he was now pur-
suing.—( Great cheering from the Opposition.)
Mr. RIGBY WASON—The Noble Lord, although
prompted by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough—( Cries
of " Order, order.")
Lord DARLINGTON and Mr. RICHARDS both rose to address
the House. The latter giving way, Lord DARLINGTON
said—l call the Hon. Member for Ipswich to Birder. The
Hon. Member for Knaresborough has never said a single word
to me.—(Loud Opposition cheers, and cries of " Order.")
Mr. WAS ON then rose and said—Sir, the Noble Lord—.
Lord DARLINGTON (interrupting)—Don't speak what
is false.—(Cries of " Order, order I" " Chair, chair I" in
the midst of which Mr. Wason resumed his seat.)
The SPEAKER—I hope the Noble Lord will explain.
Lord DARLINGTON—I am very sorry that I should
make use of an expression that is improper. At the same time,
when the Hon. Member for Ipswich attributes words to me—
when he says I have been prompted by the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough—knowing at the same time perfectly well that
that Hon. Member never addressed me--(" Order, order I"
" Chair, chair I")
The SPEAKER—The Noble Lord, after a moment's re-
flection, must feel, that if anything is stated in the course of
debate—of which he thinks he has a right to complain—that
the proper course is to afford an opportunity to the Hon.
Member making that statement, to give an explanation of
that which the Noble Lord considers exceptionable. But,
certainly, the Noble Lord has expressed his feelings in terms
which are not proper, nor in accordance with the rules of the
House.

Lord DARLINGTON again expressed his sorrow that he
should have been guilty of using an expression, which was
felt by the House to be offensive ; but he hoped he might bo
allowed to say, that what the Hon. Gentleman had said to him
was extremely offensive to his feelings.
Mr. RIGBY WASON assured the Noble Lord that he
(Mr. Wason) did not use the term " prompted" with any in-
tention to give offence. I saw (said the Hon. Gentleman)
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough turn to the Noble Lord;
but if the Noble Lord says he was net prompted by that Hon.
Member, that is quite sufficient. In what I said to the Noble
Lord I did not mean it as a charge ; but I do mean to state
to the Noble Lord that when he says I am actuated by vindic-
tive feelings, that if I were to say that the Noble Lord stated
that which be knew to be untrue, I should use what would be
unparliamentary language. But Ido say that the Noble Lord
has stated what is antrue.—(Hear, hear, Order, Chair, and
much confusion.)
The SPEAKER again interposed, and called the Hon.
Member to order.
Mr. RIGBY WA SON—The Noble Lord said that I was
actuated by vindictive feelings. I say that is untrue. If
that be unparliamentary language, of course as unparlia-
mentary language I retract it. How can the Noble Lord
know the feelings that actuate my breast? Knowing what
what were my own feelings, I did state what I must repeat,
that what the Noble Lord stated is untrue.—( Loud calls for
Lord Darlington.)
Mr. W YNN said, it certainly appeared to him that his
Noble Friend had first used an expression which was contrary
to the rules of this House, by saying that the Hon. Member
for Ipswich was actuated by vindictive feelings. It was a
rule of this House, and one he thought of great importance,
that motives should not be imputed to any Hon. Member.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) He was sure that under these circum-
stances his Noble Friend must desire to observe the usual
rules of the House by retracting the offensive expression. And
as that was the case, he was convinced that the Hon. Gentle-
man opposite would also comply with what he must see was
the general feeling of the House, by withdrawing the offen-
sive term which he had likewise used.--. 4 Hear.)
Lord DARLINGTON (being again loudly called for) rose
and said—l have expressed before, and I state again, that if
I have used any expression that is unparliamentary, I am very
ready to retract that expression. At the same time, after
having said that, I think the Hon. Gentleman opposite should
pursue precisely the same course., If he retracts the expres-
sions used on his part, I shall not hesitate to do the same.—
el Oh, oh I " " Chair, chair 1")
The SPEAKER understood the Noble Lord to say that
he was ready to withdraw his offensive expression, and that he
trusted the Hon. Member for Ipswich would also withdraw the
expression which he had applied to the Noble Lord, the Noble
Lord having first attributed motives to that Hon. Member by
saying that he was actuated by vindictive feelings, which un-
doubtedly was most unparliamentary.
Lord DARLINGTON—I am perfectly willing to withdraw
the expression on my part, if the Hon. Member will follow
the example.—( Opposition calls for Mr. Wason, and cries on
the Ministerial side of " No, no !")
Mr. WASON said—the Noble Lord has said if I will do
so and so, he will do so and so. That is an apology I will not
accept, either in this House or out of it.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I rise only to make a remark
in confirmation of what has fallen both from the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Wynn) and from the Cliair-4-that the first
disorderly expression was used by the Noble Lord, when the
Noble Lord thought it proper to rise and say that the Hon.
Gentleman behind me was actuated by vindictive feelings in
the course he has pursued in this House. That was the first
disorderly expression used—therefore I should conceive that
the Noble Lord would, without any condition whatsoever, pay
that respect to the House which is due to it. I may say fur-
ther, that although what the Hon. Gentleman behind me said—
that the Noble Lord had been prompted by the Hon. Member
for Knaresborough—may be an expression giving offence to
the Noble Lord, yet I do not see that it is an offence against
the orders of this House--( Hear, hear)—nor do I see what
cause the Noble Lord bad for finding fault with it.
Mr. RIC HA RD S—lt appears to me, Sir—( Laughter, and
cries of " Oh, oh")—I admit that I did speak to the Noble
Lord.—( Hear, hear.) The expression I made use of was—
he has a wife and a large family—(Laughter)—meaning Clip-
perton. So far that was prompting ; but the Noble Lord did
not hear mc, and therefore it fell to the _round. Bat the
Noble Lord, as it seemed to me, only said that it appeared to
him that the Hon. Member for Ipswich was actuated by vin-
dictive feelings ; which was very different from saying that he
was so actuated.—(No, no.)
Mr. G 0 ULBURN understood his Noble Friend to have
distinctly stated, that if he had made use of any offensive ex-
pression, he begged to retract it.—(No, no.) His Learned
Friend had distinctly made that admission.—( Hear, hear.)
What further apology the Hon. Member, therefore could re.
quire, be could not conceive.
The SPEAK ER did also distinctly understand the Noble
Lord to have made that general withdrawal of his expresssion
as being against the rules of the House. But undoubtedly,
if the Noble Lord had so expressed himself as to couple his
retractation with any condition, he was sure the House would
admit that the Noble Lord was not in a situation to do any
such thing ; because to attribute motives to a Member of the
House was an offence against the House itself.—(Mr. Wason
was again called for by the Opposition Members.)
Sir ROBERT PRICE said it appeared to him that there
was some misunderstanding as to the retractation of the Noble
Lord. If, therefore, the Noble Lord would have the good-
ness to comply with the general wish of the House, and say
again what were the terms he used, it would be the means of
setting the House right.
Lor DARLINGTON—I was in hopes that I had already
made myself sufficiently understood.—( Hear, hear.) It cer-
tainly did appear, as far as I could collect, that what I before
stated was satisfactory to the House. lamat a loss to know
what I can state in addition to what I have already said. It
was not my intention to give offence to the House : and if I
used an offensive expression, lam ready to retract it. At the
same time, as the Hon. Member also used expressions equally
offensive to me, I thought it was not too much to call upon
Lim also to retract. I am perfectly ready to make any apology
to the House for any expression I may have made use of, pro-
vided the Hon. Member for Ipswich does the same.
Lord SANDON observed, that the offence of his Noble
Friend was to the House, and not to the Hon. Member for
Ipswich, and therefore an apology was due from the Noble
Lord to the House without any condition whatever.—( Loud
cheers.) If the Hon: Gentleman should then afterwards make
an apology which was due from him to the House, this unfor-
tunaa- business would be at nn end.
one BROWNE recollected perfectly that the Noble
4‘17„. .4"!7 e. that what was stated by the Hon. Gent. was false.
~-‘4/ . i 5....( rids of ,V4o, no," from the Opposition benches.) When
~li.`6- the Hon. Ge attributed to the Hon. Member for Knares-
Y•- baron& that he bad prompted the Noble Lord, the Noble
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Lord immediately said, " It -is false !"—(No, no, from the
same quarter.)
Lord DARLINGTON—If I did make U3O of that expres-
sion, I retract Cheers from all parts of the House.)
Mr. FO WELL BUXTON said the first thing to be done
was for the Noble Lord to retract the expression used by bim
offensive to the House ; that being done, the next thing to be
done was, for the offensive expressions which had subse-
quently been used to be withdrawn. He then thought that
both the private order and the dignity of the House would be
maintained.

Mr. W ARBURTON—I believe the Noble Lord has en-
tirely retracted one expression—the word " False ;" but I do
not understand him to have retracted the personally offensive
expression—that the Hon. Member for Ipswich was actuated
by vindictive feelings.
An HoN. I%IEMBEa understood the Noble Lord to have
retracted every expression that could be offensive to the
House.

The SPEAKER understood that the Noble Lord, in the
first instance, made a general retractation. Subsequently the
Noble Lord made a conditional retractation. That being con-
trary to the orders of the House, he (the Speaker) called the
Noble Lord's attention to the fact, and observed that upon
the Noble Lord making a retractation, unconditionally and
without qualification, the House would require the Hon. Mem-
ber for Ipswich to do the same. The Noble Lord having
done this, he (the Speaker) did not think the Hon. Member
for Ipswich was in a situation to refuse making the retracta-
tion required.

Mr. RIGBY W A SON—I can only state what appear to
me to be the circumstances of the case, leaving the House to
say whether lam right or wrong. When I got up to reply
to the Noble Lord's first observation, that I was actuated " by
vindictive motives," I said that the Noble Lord was prompted
by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough. The Noble Lord
then said, " That is false."--( Cries of " No, no.") Why
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough has told the House
that it was true, and that he did prompt the Noble Lord.
—(Loud cries of " No, no.") I then understood you, Mr.
Speaker, to call upon the Noble Lord, and that the Noble
Lord did then retract the word " false." I was then going
on to answer the Noble Lord as to the terms " vindictive feel-
ings." In doing so, I made use of an expression which you,
Sir, considered to be unparliamentary. I stated, in reply,
when I was called upon for an apology, that I used the ex-
pression in answer to the Noble Lord's observation, which I
considered to be equally unparliamentary. I then understood
the Noble Lord to use these terms distinctly—that if he had
used any unparliamentary language he was very willing to
apologize to the House if I did the same. My answer then,
as it must be now, was, that I never would accept an apology
on a condition. If the Noble Lord will state that which he
conceives he ought to state, I shall do that which I conceive is
proper for me to do.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord DARLINGTON—The Hon. Gentleman seems to
state that what I stated was false.—( No, no.) Ile charges
me with having stated what actually was false, because he says
that I was prompted by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough.
Whether that Hon. Member turned round to, or whether he
!moke to me, or what he said, I declare upon my honour I
c'a„,,-,:4 tell. Therefore, I was a little surprised to be charged
as beinc, crompted. With respect to any offensive expressions
perfectly ready to have retracted ;
I may rave ust7l- I was
and if the Hon. IVe:ber had not subsequently made use of a
similarly offensive exprtZ7lon, I should have done so with-
out making any condition. Although 1 am ready to
admit that my expressions were oti::"sive, yet, according to
my construction, the expression which the Lion. Member used
had a precisely similar effect.
Mr. R. WASON—I never meant to impute to the Noble
Lord an intention to deceive the House. I only alluded to
the admission of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, in
order to show that I did not speak without some foundation,
when I said that that Hon. Member had prompted the Noble
Lord.

Mr. R. C. FERGUS SON observed that the Noble Lord
had, in his opinion, unequivocally retracted everything. The
words " vindictive feelings" were certainly of significant import
in comparison with other words ; but the Noble Lord had since
made a most unqualified retraction. These words were fol-
lowed by words of similar import from the Hon. Member for
Ipswich, and he (Mr. C. Ferguson) thought that Hon. Mem-
ber was bound to make an equally unqualified retraction.—
( Hear, and loud calls for Mr. Wason.)
Mr. R. WA SON—I understand that the Noble Lord has
retracted the expression imputing to me falsehood without any
condition. Of course, therefore, without any mixture of re-
serve or equivocation on my part, I also retract the expressio'n
used by me towards the Noble Lord.

Mr. AGLIONBY then expressed a hope that the Hon.
Member for Penryn (Mr. Freshfield) would consent to post-
pone the further debate on the petition before the House until
Friday next. The Hon. Gentleman briefly referred to the
evidence to show that Mr. Clipperton was wholly unworthy of
any favour at the hands of the House.

Mr. WYNN said, that if the question went to a division, he
should certainly vote in favour of the postponement of the
discussion.

Sir HENRY HARDINGE hoped, when the Right Hon.
Chairman of the Committee advocated the postponement of
the discussion, his Hon. Friend would see the propriety of
adjourning the debate. •
Mr. FRE SHFIELD, thus appealed to, moved the adjourn-
ment of further debate on the question, until (as we under-
stood) Friday next.
The question was put and carried, and the debate adjourned
accordingly.
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