The Sun.
London, England, 1832-02-03 00:00:00

trious Duke then presented a petition from the teachers and
students of the Medical and Anatomical School, Southwark.
RUSSIAN LOAN.
On proceeding to the orders of the day,
Lord WYNFORD rose. We understood his Lordship to
say, w;th reference to the subject which he was about to
bring before the House, that it had been the constant prin-
ciple of English policy to support and strengthen Holland.
It was to its timely aid that we were indebted for the
establishment of that free system of government under
.Vhich we at present lived.—(Hear.) Their Lordships
could not but remember the deliverance achieved by
William of glorious memory, when he mounted the
British throne. it could not he forgotten that Hull :nil
had promptly supported the succession of the illustrious
family which now ssayed the sceptre of these realms. It
could not be forgotten that in 1745 Dutch troops were
sent hither to aid in repolling the attempts of the Pre-
tender. Though Holland at last to k part against us, it
was only when she ceased to be a free agent. It was,
therefore, he contended, not only our interest to defend
and sustain Hollind, but we were called upon to do so
by national honour and good faith. With respect to the
Russian Loan, he thought, that unless we were under
absolute engagements to continue the payment of it, this
was no time to draw largely upon the public treasury.
He begged to call their Lordship..' attention to the circum-
stances under which the treaty with which this loan was
connected was framed. In 1814, immediately after Hol-
land was delivered from the tyranny of France, a treaty
was entered between this country and Holland. The
Noble Lord here read a portion of the articles of the treaty
of August 13, 1814, signed in London, which set forth
that in consideration of the payment of certain sums of
money, the Sovereign of Holland consented to cede to
Great Britain the settlement at the Cape of Good Hope, with
Demerara, Essequibo, and Berbice. It had been said, con-
tinued the Noble Lord, at the period when the treaty was
s'gned, that Holland had no right to make any disposition
of these settlements, they having been secured to England
by the law of conquest. To this opinion Lord Castle
reagh had triumphantly replied, when he stated that Hol-
land, unlike Saxony, was not a voluntary enemy, but
forced into co-operation with Buonaparte. It was also
provided by treaty that Holland was to have Belgium,
and, on giving up certain German provinces to Prussia,
part of Luxemburg was made over to her. Now he (Lord
Wynford) insisted that if Great Britain or Prussia caused
any thing to be done towards the dismemberment of Hol-

land, or prevented the Sovereign of that country from re-
clnquering any pact of his dominions that had rejected
his authority, they were hound in honour and in justice
to make compensation,—the one by restoring the foreign
settlements, the other by relinquishing the possessien
of the provinces in Germany. The Noble Lord then
proceeded to consider the provisions of the treaty of
the 19th of May, 1815, which guaranteed the pay-
ment of the Russian loan, and argued that, according to
its terms, the time for withholding the payment, as
mtemplated by every party to the treaty, had begun
with the separation of Belgium from Holland. He
understood that the opinion had been advanc,d that
judges and lawyers had nothing to do with treaties.
To this he would answer that treaties could only be carried
into effect by Acts of Parliament, and Acts of Parliament
could only be interpreted by those who comprehentb-d
them. The sth article of the treaty provided that the
payment of the money should cease, whenever the posses-
-ion and sovereignty of the Belgic provinces should pass
or be severed from the dominions of the King of the Ne-
therlands. In the French copy the word " dominions"
was not to he found, but instead of it the word "domina-
tion" was inserted, which made the sentence more intel-
ligible. What was meant by the expression " the sove-
reignty of the Belgic provinces passing front the King of
the Netherlands ?" Did it mean the sovereignty de jure,
or the sovereignty de facto ? and then the question arose,
were there two kinds of sovereignty acknowledged
by law ? He contended that there were two two kinds
of sovereignty acknowledged by the law of England—
viz., the sovereignty de jure, and the sovereignty
de facto ; anti the distinction first began to be made in
this country in the time of Henry VII, The circum-
stances which attended the apprehenai.ot of Mr. Lau-
rens, the President of the Congress, when he was pro
ceeding from America to Holland for the purpose of
concluding a treaty of alliance with, that country, proved
that this distinction was practically admitted. He wa,
seized, and by a mistake of the lawyers, committed to the
Tower as a traitor. He subsequently demanded to be
treated as a prisoner of-war, and not as a traitor, because
the country in whose service he had been engaged was,
de fucto, separated from England, and that separation had
been acknowledged by a treaty for the exchange of pri-
soners. Mr. Burke gave notice of a motion on the subject
in the House of Commons, stating that Mr. Laurens could
not be considered such a subject of England as made him
liable to a charge of treason ; but before the motion came
on, Mr. Laurens was discharged from prison. It was a
principle recognized by statesmen in all countries, and was
conformable to the law of nations, that no man could
Commit treason against a King de jure and out of posses-
sion. It was even stated by Comines that a King de facto
might take advantage of a treaty concluded with a King
de jure ; and the writer gave as instance the case of Henry
VI., who was taken from the Tower and placed on the
throne by the Earl of Warwick, and with respect to whom
the elector of Burgundy thought himself bound to observe
the terms of a treaty which he had concluded with the legi
timate King, Edward IV. Another instance of the same sort
was the treaty entered into with the Dutch by Henry IV. of

France, before Holland was acknowledged as an independent
kingdom by Sp fin ; and this conduct of the King of France
was supported by the opinions of one of the greatest com-
mentators on the law or nation•, Grotius. He thought he
had fully established that both a sovereignty de faeo and
de jute were acknowledged by the municipal laws of all
countries ; and the next question was, which kind of sove-
reignty was meant by the treaty now under the considera-
tion of the House. The King of Holland would unques
tionably possess the sovereignty de jure over the Belgic
provinces, until he consented to cede them ; but he (Lord
Wynford) had no hesitation in saying, that the sovereignty
alluded to was a sovereignty de facto. The object of the
contracting parties was to secure a barrier on the frontiers

of France, and that object would not be obtained by the
King of the Netherlands merely possessing a sovereignty
de jure over the Belgic provinces, while a real separatii n
had taken place between the two parts of his dominions.

f a sovereignty de facto was meant, and that ..,overeienty
ad ceased to reside with the King of the Netherlands,

;hen both Holland and England were absolved from conL
inuing the payment of that money for which they had

made themselves liable under other circumstances.

Sup-

posing, however, that the question was one of doubt, he
knew no better mode of proceeding than by submitting it
to the twelve Judges. The Noble and Learned Lord then

proceeded to contend that the Judges were the most fitting
persons to be consulted on the case, as it arose out of a❑
Act of Parliament which was binding on the subjects of
England, and which could nor, therefore, he regarded in
any other light than as pat t and parcel of the municipal
law of the land. It might, perhaps, be said that the pay-

ment had been continued to Russia from equitable con;i-

derations, but the proper judges of those equitable consi-

derations were the two Houses of Parliament, and not

:he 3linisters ; and if the Judges should report thit the

payment was illegal, the 31inisttrs would be placed no-

der the necessity of introducing a Bill to indemnify them-
selves, to which he should have no objection to agree,
if they had been induced to act in this matter under the
advice of the law officers of the Crown. He did not

know, too, whether be should not feel it his duty, under
those circumstances, to oppose a Bill or an address to the
Crown, to prevent the further payment of any money in
consequence of this treaty. The Noble and Learned
Lord then cited several precedents in support of the course

which he proposed to the House to follow ; and said that
before he concluded he would mention what he thought
was material in considering the meaning of the treaty,
and was the way in which one of its framers understood
it. Lord Castlereagh distinctly stated that his object in
proMoting the treaty was to bind one of the most powerful
States in Europe to the protection of the union of the
Belgic pros inces with the kingdom of Holland ; and he
went on to sty, that whenever the possession of those pro-
vinces should be separated from the King of the Nether-
lands, from that instant the obligations of Holland, and of
course of this country, would cease. The Noble and
Learned LOrd said there could be no doubt that the Belgic
provinces had become independent. Holland had treated
with them as a separate Power ; England, France, Russia,
and Prussia, hail held communications with a Minister
styling himself the plenipotentiary of the King of Belgium,
and Prince Leopold had been acknowledged, in the
speech from the throne, as King of that country. These
were facts which sufficiently proved the independence of
Belgium; and he should now conclude by moving " that
the Judges be directed to attend this House, to answer
thefollo wing questions :—Are the Colnini'sioncrs of his
Treasury
to auitsbsuoeriasnetyl
sbuyintohfemsosntehy
fGroemo.
by any Majesty's
ther la
con-
solidated fund of Great Britain 2 or any public money, for
the payment of any part of the principal or interest o'f the
loan mentioned in such Act, at any time after his Majesty
the King of the Netherlands shall have
ceased ~,toanedxerc
shallise
any sovereign authority in the Belgic
have treated with persons exercising the powers of Go-
vernment therein ; and atter his Majesty shall have an-
!loomed from the throne the conclusion of a treaty be-

t ween his Majesty, in concurrence with the other Powers
of Europe and the King of Belgium, and shall have ap-
pointed a Minister to treat with the King of Belgium ; and
after the Ministers of Great Britain, France, Russia, and
Prussia shall have treated with a Minister announcing him-
self as the plenipotentiary of the King of Belgium ?"
The LORD CHANCELLOR, having previously r ad
the motion from the Woolstck, proceeded to say that he had
risen thus early in the debate for the purpose of stating to
their Lordships what appeared to him insurmountable ob
jections against adopting the proposition of his Noble and
Learned Friend. In addressing himself to the subject, he
should reverse the order which the Noble Lord himself
had pursued, and come at Once to the reasons he had
urged in recommendation of the immediate proposition
before the House. Without referring to the actual merits
of the case itself, it appeared pretty clear that the ques-
tion which the Judges would have to inquire into, pro-
vided the House assented to the motion, must relate to the
construction of the sth article of the treaty of 1815, for
the Act of Parliament authorized the payment "of the said
money, if it came within his Majesty's engagements, accord
ing to the words of the convention." 'ln substance, then,
they would refer to the Judges the construction of thaw
conventions. Now, even admitting that there were prece-
dents for laying a question before the Judges at a time
when no cruse was pending, when no proceeding what-
ever, judicial or legislative, had been instituted—( Hear)--
it behoved them to pause and consider the principle on
which they would thus apply to those learned personages.
The Noble Lord advised the House to resort to these
judicial functionaries, in order, no doubt, to procure the
best information, and from the most eligible quarter. The
House generally was supposed to be unlearned in these
matters, while the Judges were not only practised and
skilled in the lore becoming their station, but had acquired
more than ordinary acumen by the daily habit of applying
themselves to the abstruse and delicate cases which, con-
tinually came before them. A question of this nature,
however, was not amongst those with which the twelve, or
as he ought now to say the fifteen, Judges of England were
conversant. Such a one might possibly be submitted to
some of them now and then in the course of their judicial
experience and after long intervals, but the civil law
Judges, to whom their Lordships had it not in their
power to apply, were pre-eminently skilled in the public
law of nations in which their brethren were necessarily so
deficient.—(Hear, hear.) It was one thing to put a right
construction on a treaty according to the principles ef in-
ternational law, and quite another to expound or interpret
an Act of Parliament. This, too, was fully acknowledged
by the Judges themselves, who, whenever they had to
grapple with the difficulties of a question which did not fall
tvi bin their usual province, always availed themselves of the
assistance of civilians. Indeed, they never happened to
have any experience whatever upon subjects of this nature,
except at the Court of Appeals, and to that branch of juris-
prudence very few lawyers ever devoted their attention. The
Chief Justice of the Common Pleas perhaps might sit about
once a fortnight on a question connected with public law ;
but it was almost impossible for any of the other Judges
to participate even in those scanty opportunities. If the
matter could he sent to the Court of Admiralty, a pro-
posal to that effect would have been comparatively spe-
cious, but such a thing had never heen done before, and
the Noble Lord himself would never think of suggesting it.
But supposing that the appeal to the Judges in such a
question were not absurd in heel, he would ask were
there precedents for the proceeding ? The Noble and
Learned Baron had referred to two, which, so far front
sustaining his argument, furnished the best reasons possible
for its comp'ete refutation. In one of the cases the
question was propounded on the 21st of June, but a Bill
upon the subject had been brought into Parliament on the
previous 17th.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Baron had
adverted to the circumstance of the Bill in an under tone,
as if it was an affair of no importance ; but that in fact
involved the gist of the whole question.—(Hear, hear.)
The other case was one in which a Bill had been brought
in, rendering the chief Magistrate of Edinburgh ineligible
for any trust under the Crown after the Porteous riot. He
had a great respect for so profound a lawyer as Lord Hard •
wicke, who took a prominent part in that question; but he
must say, that such a precedent was more honoured in the
breach than in the observance. The Judges of a Court of
Justice in Edinburgh on that occasion were summoned
in a most unseemly manner, and harshly questioned,
for the purpose of impugning their own conduct in
their judicial character after a criminal had been legally
condemned to die according to the ordinary process of the
laws. But, putting out of sight the evils which must at-
tend such a procedure as that recommended by his Noble
and Learned Friend, he would ask, was it right to put
questions to Judges on subjects which might possibly come
before them hereafter ? It was maintained, that money
had been paid contrary to law,— that an Act of Parlia-
ment had been violated. If so, some one must be account-
able for it, and an impeachment might he the consequence.
Well, these Judges bearing no parry, listening to no argu-
ments, must find their way to a conclusion, and report it
to the House, having seen nothing, heard nothing, known
nothing beyond the tour corners of the paper submitted to
them ; and afterwards when the whole affair might be again
brought before them, they would hear counsel and discuss
arguments, and might see fit, like many other Judges be-
fore them, to reverse their former opinion. But who
could say that there would not be a strong bias on their
minds in consequence of the solemn act to which they
already stood committed ?—(Hear, hear.) Besides, the
officers might refuse to pay this money the next time, in
which case a mandamus would issue to compel them, and
the subject would lie argued before the Judges of the King's
Bench, with their former hypothetical opinion all the time
staring them in the face. But the main body of the ques-
tion was whether the treaty was binding; for if so, the
act, as he had already said, warranted the pay..
mew. The first article ran th us —Art. 1. His
Majesty the King of the Netherlands hereby engages
to take upon himself a part of the capital and ar-
rears of interest to the Ist of January, 1516, of the
Russian loan made in Holland, through the intervention
of the house of Hope and Co. in Arnsterdatn, to the
amount of 25,000,000 of florins, Dutch currency ; the
annual interest of which stun, together with an annual
tfied shall he n by nti become ,paymentj for the
cr liquidation
a of th e
a charge same, as
,here up
e i naf
ore: s pt
he
kingdom of the Netherlands ; and his Majesty the King
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland en-
gages on his part to recommend to his Parliament to en-
able him to take ,upon himself an equal capital of the slid
Russian loan, viz.--25,000,000 of florMs, Dutch cur.
arenricy,
nual tplT y annualment
for interestthe l of which sutra,idation
of og
the
saeitnhe with
e, r
ashere-
aftern a
specified, shall be borne by and become a charge upon
the Government of his Britannic Majesty." Now this
obligation was not voluntarily or gratuitously undertaken,
hut in acknowledgement of a consideration already paid_
by Russia ; and the knowledge of the fact, he should sup-
pose, might have led to more sound arid stateetnaulike
views of our duty towards that power than his Noble
Friend appeared to have taken. He would forgive him for
sae ing that towards the beginning and the end of his speech
he had been rather declamatory than argumentative. He
seemed to congratulate himself on the probability of his
proving a much more extensive economist than Ministers, if
he could produce a saving to the country to the amount of
2,000,0001. He hoped that the Noble and Learned Lord

would succeed in his economical project, provided he could

do so without any breach of honour or national faith.--

(Hear, hear.) While remembering the money, it was to
be hoped that be would not forget the treaty, if it could

be afiown to be a binding obligation. Russia bad per-
formed a great and essential service before the treaty had
been ever entered into, having rendered such assistance in

delivering a vast tract of territory from the power of the
enemy. Ac,•ording to the convention of the 13th of Au-

gust, 1811, we agreed to pay two millions against two
millions from Holland for the erection of fortresses, and
we also agreed to bear equally with Holland the further
expences attendant on the settlement of the Low Coun-
tries, not exceeding 3,000,0001. In consideration of
thee engagements we obtained the advantage of the cession
by the King of the Netherlands of certain colonies, of
which we were now possessed, and we likewise gained the
advantage of rescuing Belgium from France. He did not
mean to argue in favour of the treaty—it was none of his,
be was not even in the House of Commons when it was
passed. Probably had he been there he should have op-
posed it. The Noble and Learned Baron had maintained
that Russia was bound to protect the integrity of Belgium,
and referred to the authority of Lords Liverpool and Cas-
tlereagh, but it was agaiiist France that she was expected
to protect her, and no other Power than France could
possibly have been meant. Two conclusions, then,
might be drawn from these facts—the one, that Russia
had performed her duty and paid her consideration ; the
other, that France was the only Power contemplated through-
out the entire of the arrangements. As to Russia, she
had paid her part, she had joined in re-conquering her
provinces from France, and she stood in the shoes of the
Allies. Without recurring to the Judges, who could know
nothing of public law, any one must see it was a prin-
ciple
of all law
.that the party who has paid has a right to
as liberal a construction of the contract as the words in
which it is constructed will admit of. Vattel, in his
chapter on the construction of treaties, had laid it down
that every thing not strictly expressed should he taken
against the promiser and the party bound. Now in the
present case Holland and England were the parties pro-
mising, and the obligation, therefore, should be inter-

pleted strongly against us. He argued this a Russian
diplomatist might be supposed to do it ; but an exception
had been introduced for our benefit, not for that of Russia.
The Noble Lord had quoted Grotius, to the effect that we
should always look to the condition of the contracting par-
ties, to which he would add, from Vattel, we should
also " look to the views of the parties when any unfore-
seen conjuncture might arise." The independent establish-
ment of Belgium, and not its transfer from one Sovereign
to another, was precisely such a conjuncture as the jurist
had described. Looking, then, to the views of the par-
ties, without reference to one protocol, conference, or de-
spatch,—without even examining the progress of the ne-
gotiation, which, in construing doubtful treaties, was al-
lowable,—it was notorious, from the state of Europe and
the projects of France at the period, that France only
was the Power contemplated in the treaty as the possible
usurper of Belgium, by wresting it from the crown
of Holland.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Supposing, how-
ever, that the most literal and technical construction
of the treaty should be taken. The words were " se-
vered from the possession and sovereignty.' The
sovereignty being added to the possession, gave a perfectly
different complexion to the case. The sovereignty could
only be legally severed by recognition,—by an act decla-
ratory of the recognition of the separation. Upon this
point he would direct the attention of their Lordships to
one or two decisions which had been given by the tribu-
nals, which affected the question of the transference or
changing of sovereignty. One of these decisions was
made by the highest court of the law of nations in this
country—he meant the Court of Privy Council—no longer
ago than ISOS. It was notorious that sixteen year. before
that period St. Domingo had been severed from France,
not only de facto, but to all intents and purposes. Tile
French exercised no one power in St. Domingo. It had
been subject to a variety of sovereignties, and amongst
others to the Crown of this country. Never; heless, it
was laid down by the Lords of the Privy Council in the
appeal which came befor-- them, that St. Domingo was,
in the contemplation of public law, still under the sove-
reignty of Fran e. He begged the House to observe that
he did not voluntarily have recourse to this literal con-
struction of the terms of public acts, but he was driven
to it by the Noble and Learned Lord. He was desirous
of giving a liberal and common sense construction to the
words of the treaty—he was disposed to look at the con-
dition and views of the parties at the time of their enter-
ing in'o the compact, and then he found that the case did
not embrace the question of separation, but only that of
transference to France. If, however, he was called upon
to abide by the letter of the treaty, he must rake the
strict technical rule of the Courts of Law. He limn.]
that though the sovereignty of France had been severed
from St. Domingo for sixteen long years, it wa-5 in
the contemplation of the law, still a French colony,
because France, at the period of that decision, had
not recognized its independence. In like manner a
Learned and Reverend Judge (Lord Stowell), whose ab-
sence upo❑ the present occasion he much regretted, be-
cause he, more than any other Judge of the land, was
qualified to enlighten their Lordships on this subject, bad
decided a case which arose from circumstances of a pecu-
liarly stringent nature. It was a qestion of piracy. A

Colombian cruiser which had taken a Spanish ship, was
afterwards captured by an English vessel, and brought
into one of our ports for condemnation. The Spanish
Ambassador put in a claim for the property found on board
the Colombian cruiser, on the ground of piracy. He
contended that Colombia was a part of Spain. Although
there had been a severance of the colony de facto, the
Learned Judge to whom he had alluded, because the seve-
rance had never been recognized by Spain, ordered the
goods to he given up to the Spanish Ambassador. The
Noble and Learned Lord had referred to the exchange of
Ambassadors between this country- and Bigium, and the
mention of the King of Belgium in his Majesty's speech
from the throne. This objection could be valid only
against the parties making the recognition; but he knew
of no case in which the exchange of Ambassadors might
have been for the very purpose of negotiating respecting
the independence of the State. But suppo•ing that
there had been a recognition as far as regarded u,<,
was that a recognition as tar as regarded the sub.
ject matter of the debate? It was one thing to say
that we should be bound by our own act, and another
to say that Russia shouid be bound by it also. Was
Russia to be bound and concluded by an Act to which
she was no party, but which began and ended with our-
selves? Besides, he was warranted by the opinion of the
eminent Judge to whom he had already referred, in saying
that a treaty, until it was ratified, had in public law no
legal effect whatever. This decision of Lord Stowell was
r ither the recognition of a law which had never been dis-
puted, than the I Tying down of a new rule. The case in
which the decision took place was one of a peculiar nature:
A capture had been made on the coast of Sweden. This
capture took place not only after the signature of the de-
finitive treaty by the two contracting Powers, but after
the eatleition of the treaty by one of those Powers. Eng-
land had ratified the treaty before the question arose, but
Sweden did not ratify until after; and because the ratifi-
cation was not completed by both, Lord Stowell held the
treaty to be good for nothing. His expression was, that
" the ratification was reciprocal, and that under the cir-
cumstances it must he consider-id that there was no treaty
at all." The effect of this judgment was, that Sweden
was considered as in a state of war at the tune the capture
was made. Now the treaty with Belgium had not been
ratified by us till after the payment had been made to
Russia, and it had not been ratified by Russia up to the
present moment ; and therefore it could not be expected
that Russia should be bound by our recognition. The
Noble and Learned Lord said that this was a CagUs
ontissus, and that Ministers ought to have applied to Par-
liament for a declaratory act. If there had been a cases
omissus with respect to the obligation, such a course
would have been proper; but this was only one with re-
spect to the exception. Ministers had had recourse
to the best advice they could obtain. They had re-
ferred the question not only to the Attorney and
Solicitor-General, but to the King's Advocate, who,
after the most mature consideration, had given the opinion
on which Government lied acted.—(lle ir, hoar.)
Upon that opinion the Government rested u'eir case. That
opinion went along with his own, however unworthy it
might be of baring stated in company and in subsequence
with the former. He should like to know what would
have been said to Ministers if they had acted differently
front what they had done. If, atter having obtained the
hest advice, they had acted in opposition to it, would they
not have been told of their scandalous and gross breach of
faith ?____.(Cheers.) It would have been said, " Thin is
all jealousy of Ros,ia.—(llear, hear)—you are afraid of
that great Power—if it bad been France, now, the money
would have been paid immediately—(Much eh ering and
laughter)—you never can forgive Russia for the services
which she has rendered to the common cause ; if it bad
been the common enemy, you would at mice have followed

the opinion of the law officers, the constitutional law ad-
visers of the Crown ; but because it is Russia, you will
not pay what you are bound to pay. You fling the opi-
nion which you have received behind the fire, and act upon
your own prejudices."--(Cheers and laughter.) Then a
Noble Lord, not far off from him, would have designated
the proceeding of Ministers as a piece of handywork-. He
would have told them they ought never to have quibbled
about the words contained within the four corners of the
treaty, but should have, accord'ng to Grotius and Va'tel,
looked at the condition and views of the partiea at the time
the treaty was signed, and given a liberal and common
sense construction to it. Further it would have been re-
marked, that it was easy to account for the conduct of
Ministers in refusing to pay the money to Russia,—the
tee sty was none of theirs,—it was framed by far wiser and
better men who had gone before them—(A laugh)—and
of whom they testified captious jealousy by riving a strict
and irrational construction to the treaty, instead of an
ample, rational, fair, honest, and manly one.—(Hear.)
True it was that 'Ministers were not the authors of the
policy which dictated the treaty, they had no share in ad-
vising it, no share in approving it ; but if the country was
bound, if the obligation continued, he would excuse it,
without considering whether it would not have been better
never to have contracted it. He apologized to their Lord-
ships for having occupied so much of their time, but he
had thought it necessary to enter at considerable length
into the question, because it was probable that the treaty
might again come under the consideration of Parliament.
The Loan CHANCELLOR., with the permission of their
Lordships, retired from the woolsack, and in about fifteen
minutes resumed his seat.
The Earl of ELDON could not altogether assent to the
motion submitted to their Lordships' consideration. He
could not bring to mind any occasion in which the opinion
of the Judges had been asked in the first instance. He
did not hesitate to say, that the conduct of Government
towards Belgium and Holland, and with respect to the
payment of the money to Russia, was one of the most
objectionable modes of proceeding that could he adopted.
He did not mean to say that if the peace of Europe were
endangered, Ministers ought not to proceed upon their
own responsibility; -but he would say, that if time per-
mitted, it was their duty to apply for an Act of Midi,-
merit, and if the exigency of the moment did not not allow
of such an application, they should afterwards seek for an
Act of Indemnity. In 1816 the Powers of Europe had

entered into a treaty ; this treaty was laid before i'arlia-
!new and adopted by it, and so long as Holland and
Belgiu►n were united, and not separated, so long was

`Great Britallk to povole for the pymeut of so much
money to Russia. The treaty being thus sanctioned by
Parliament, it was asked how much further should
Ministers go? They had gone to Mr. Attorney•Genera'
and Mr. Solicitor-General, and he (Lord Eldon) would
venture to say, that if they had questioned tho-e law-
officers of a former day, their only answer would have
been upon the Act of Parliament, and upon nothing else.
Beyond the Act they had no right to go. All they were
authorized to declare was " Is this legal or is it not?'
But it was said that the treaty being to a certain extent
sanctioned by the Parliament, therefore they were entitled
to do what they conceived the Parliament of 1816
wished to lee done. But could there lee a questiose as to
the propriety of their acting under the interpretation of
the treaty, or under the greater sanction of an Act of
Parliament? They hail been told that Belgium and Hol-
land were not separated. He was surprised how any man
could make such a statement, after the King of this
country had recognized the King of Belgium.—(Hear.)
Most readily would he stake any credit he possessed to
back the opinion, that after the passing of the Act of
Parliament in 1816, the Ministers of this country had no
right whatever to advance any money to Russia subse-
quent to the separation of Belgium and Holland. He was
art old lawyer, not a novice in the knowledae of either
equity or politics, and he considered this proceeding as
one of the most unpardonable acts any Minister ever did.
—(Hear.) If there were time to come to Parliament,
Ministers ought tee have come to it: if there were not
t.me, they might take measures, but they would need on
Act of Indemnity. It appeared to him an imperative
duty to record his opinions on one of the grossest
violtvions of Ministerial duty that he had ever re.
membered in the whole course of his public career.
Who, he would ask, after the recogn.tion of the
King of Belgium by our Sovereign, could receive
the paltry, the unfounded doctrine that Belgium and
Holland were not separated ? Under the considerations
• which he had stated, if the motion before their Lordships
went simply to ask the Judges what regard was to he bad
to the Act of Parliament of 1816, whether the payme .t
were legal or not, he would have lead no objection tee that,
because he did not believe that among the fifteen properly
constituted Judges of England there could be found a man
so great an ideot as to say that the continuance of the pay-
ment of the Russian loan was not contrary to the statute.
He would bet his life—and he would du so were i.e fifty
years younger than he was—that not one of the 15 Judges
would advance such an opinion. They would say "We
have nothing- to do with your treaties ; here is the Act of
Parliament framed for the guidance of all the King's sub-
jects,—Ministers as well as others."—(Hear.)
Lord WYNFORD replied, and the House adjourned at a
Quarter to Eleven o'clock.

---
IMPORTANT STATE PAPER.

;LAID BEFORE PARLIAMENT LAST NIGHT.)

TREATY RELATIVE TO THE NETHER-
LANDS.

The Courts of Great Britain, Austria, France, Prussia, and
Russia, taking into consideration the events which have occured
in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands since the month of
September of the year 1830, the obligation which they are under
to prevent these events from disturbing the general peace, and
the necessity which arises from these events of making certain
modifications in the transactions of the year 1815, by which the
United Kingdom of ;the Netherlands was created and esta-
blished; and his Majesty the present King of the Belgians
participating in these intentions of the above-mentioned Courts,
they have named Plenipotentiaries, &c. &c., who, atter having
exchanged their full powers, found in good and due form,
have agreed upon and signed the following Articles :
Article I.—The Belgian territory shall be composed of the
provinces of South Brabant, Leige, Namur, Ilainault, West
Flanders, East Flanders, Antwerp, and Limbourg; such as
they formed part of the United Kingdom of the. Netherlands
constituted in 1815, with the exception of those districts of the
province of Limbourg which are designated in Article IV.
The Belgian territory shall, moreover, comprise that part
Of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg which is specified in
Article 11.

Article I I.—ln the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, the limits
of the Belgian territory shall be such as will be hereinafter de-
scribed, viz. : .

Commencing from the frontier of France between Rodange,
which shall remain to the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, and
Athus, which shall belong to Belgium, there shall be drawn,
according to the annexed map, a line, which, leaving to Belgium
the road from Arlon to Longwy, the town of Arlon with its dis-
trict, and the road from Arlon to Bastogne, shall pass between
Mesancy, which shall be on the Belgian territory, and Clemancy,
which shall remain to the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg,
terminating at Steinfort, which place shall also remain to the
Grand Duchy. From Steinfort this line shall be continued in
the direction of Eischen, Hccbus, Guirsch, Oberpalen, Grende,
Nothomb, Parette, and Perle, as far as Martelange : Hecbus,
Guirsch, Grende, Nothomb, and Parette being to belong to
Belgium, and Eischen, Oberpalen, Perle, and Martelange to
the Grand Duchy. From Martolange the said line shall follow

the course of the Sure, the water way (thalweg) of which river
shall serve as the limit between the two States, as far as oppo-
site to Tintange, from whence it shall be continued, as directly
as possible, towards the present frontier of the Arrondissement
of Diekirch, and shall pass between Surret, Harlange, and
Tarchamps, which places shall be left to the Grand Duchy of
Luxembourg, and Honville, Livarchainp, and Loutremange,
which places shall form part of the Belgian territory. Then
having, in the vicinity of Doncols and Soulez, which shall
remain to the Grand Duchy, reached the present boundary of

the Arrondissement of Diekirch, the line in question shall
follow the said boundary to the frontier of the Prussian
territory. All the territories, towns, fortresses, and places
situated in the west of this line, shall belong to Belgium ; and
all the territories, towns, fortresses, and places situated to the
east of the said line, shall continue to belong to the Grand
Duchy of Luxembourg.
It is understood that in making out this line, and in con-
forming as closely as possible to the description of it given
above, as well as to the delineation of it on the map, which, for
the sake of greater clearness, is annexed to the present Article,
the Commissioners of demarcation, mentioned in Article V.,
shall pay due attention to the localities, as well as to the mutual
necessity for accommodation which may result therefrom
Article lII.—In return for the cessions made in the pre-
ceding Article, there shall be assigned to his Majesty the King
of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, a terri-
torial indemnity in the province of Limbourg.
Article IV.—ln execution of that part of Article 1., which
relates to the province of Limbourg, and in consequence of the
cessions specified in Article 11., there shall be assigned to his
Majesty the King of the Netherlands, either to be held by him
in his character of Grand Duke of Luxembourg, or for the
purpose of being united to Holland, those territories, the limits
of which are hereinafter described.

F. On the right bank of the Meuse : to the old Dutch en-
claves upon the said bank in theprovince of Limbourg, shall be
united those districts of the said province upon the same bank,
which did not belong to the States-General in 1790 ; in such
wise that the whole of that part of the present province of Lim-
bourg, situated upon the right bank of the Meuse, and com-
prised between that river on the west, the frontier of the Prus-
sian territory on the east, the present frontier of the province
of Liege on the south, and Dutch Guelderland on the north,
shall henceforth belong to his Majesty the King of the Nether-
lands, either to be held by him in his character of Grand Duke
of Luxembourg, or in order to be united to Holland.

. On the left hank of the Meuse : commencing from the
southernmost point of the Dutch province of North Brabant,
there shall be drawn, according to the annexed map, a line
which shall terminate on the Meuse below Wessein, between
that place and Stevenswaardt, at the point where the frontiers
of the present Arrondissement of Ruremond and Maestricht
meet, en the left bank of the Meuse ; in such manner that Ber-
gerot, Stamproy, Seer Itteren, Ittervoord, and Thorne, with
their districts, as well as all the other places situated to the
north of this line, shall form part of the Dutch territory.
The old Dutch enclaves in the province of Limbourg, upon
the left bank of the Meuse, shall belong to Belgium, with the
exception of the town of Maestricht, which, together with a
radius of territory, extending twelve hundred toises from the
outer glacis of the fortress on the said hank of this river, shall
continue to be possessed in full sovereignty and property by his
Majesty the King of the Netherlands.

Article V.—lt shall be reserved to his Majesty the King of
the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, to come to an
agreement with the Germanic Confederation, and with the
Agnates of the House of Nassau, as to the application of the
stipulations contained in Articles 111. and IV., as well as upon
all the arrangements which the said Articles may render ne-
cessary, either with the above mentioned Agnates of the House
of Nassau, or with the Germanic Confederation.
Article Vl.—ln consideration of the territorial arrangements
above stated, each of the two parties renounces reciprocally
and for ever all pretension to the territories, towns, fortresses,
and places situated within the limits of the possessions of the
other party, such as those limits are described in Articles 1.,
11., and IV.

The said limits shall be marked out in conformity with those
Articles by the Belgian and Dutch commissioners of demarca-
tion, who shall meet as soon as possible in the town of Maestricht
Article VI I.—Belgium,
within the limits specified in At...
ticles 1., 11., and IV., shall form an independent and perpetually
neutral State. It shall be bound to preserve such neutrality to.
wards all other States.

Article VIII.—The drainage of the waters of the two
Flanders shall be regulated between Holland and Belgium,
according to the stipulations on this subject, contained in Ar-
ticle VI. of the definitive treaty concluded between his Ma-
jesty the Emperor of Germany and the States-General on the
Hai of November, 1755 ; and in conformity with the said article
Commissioners, to be named on either side, shall make arranw-
ments for the application of the provisions contained in it.
Article IX.—The provisions of Articles 108 to 117 inclusive,
of the General Act of the Congress of Vienna, relative to the
freen
riversavigat whichionofnav separateigalileri tersh, shall be applied to those
navigable , e
Belgian and the Dutch
territories, or which traverse them both.
So far as regards specially the navigation of the Scheldt, it
shall be agreed that the pilotage and the buoying of its chan-
nel, as well as the conservation of the channels of the Scheldt

below Antwerp, shall be subject to a joint superintendcmc
that this joint superintendence shall be exercised by CoP
missioners, to be appointed on both sides for this purpose;
that moderate pilotage dues shall be fixed by mutual agree'
ment ; and that such dues shall be the same for the Dutcho
for the Belgian commerce.
It is also agreed that the navigation of the intermedo
channels between the Scheldt and the Rhine, in order to re',
coed from Antwerp to the Rhine, and vice versa, shall contioo
reciprocally free, and that it shall be subject only to modeeo
tolls, which shall provisionally be the same for the commerce
the two countries.

Commissioners on both sides shall meet at Antwerp in t
space of one month, as well to determine the definitive and p
manent amount of these tolls as to agree upon a general regu
tion for the execution of the provisions of the present Artie
and to include therein a provision for the exercise of the ri
of fishing and of trading in fish, throughout the whole exte
of the Scheldt, on a footing of perfect reciprocity in favour
the subjects of the two countries.
In the mean time, and until the said regulations shall be pr,
pared, the navigation of the navigable rivers above mentiont,
shall remain free to the commerce of the two countries, whit!'
shall adopt provisionally, in this respect, the tariffs of the Co(
vention signed at Mayence on the 31st of March, 1831; for
free navigation of the Rhine, as well as the other provisions er'
that Convention, so far as they may be applicable to those mad
gable rivers which db-ide the Dutch and Belgian territories,
traverse both.
Article X.—The use of the canals which traverse both con
tries shall continue to be free and common to the inhabitan
of both. It is understood that they shall enjoy the use of tl
same reciprocally and on equal conditions, and that on eithC
side moderate duties only shall be levied upon the navigation
these canals.
Article Xl.—The commercial communications through tl
town of Maestrieht, and through Sittardt, shall remain entire
free, and shall not be impeded under any pretext whatsoever.
The use of the roads which, passing through these town
lead to the frontiers of Germany, shall be subject only to tl
payment of moderate turnpike tolls, for the repair of the as'
roads, so that the transit commerce may not experience an
obstacle thereby, and that by means of the toll.; above mentione
these roads may be kept in good repair, and fit to afford facilitit
to that commerce.
Article XII.— In the event of a new road having been cot
structed, or a new canal cut in Belgium, terminating at th
Meuse, opposite the Dutch canton of Sittardt, in that case Be
gium shall be entitled to demand of Holland, who, on the otht
hand, shall not in such case refuse her consent, that the sai
road, or the said canal, shall be continued, according to th
same plan, and entirely at the cost and charge of Belgiure
through the canton of Sittardt, to the frontiers of Germany.
This road or canal, which shall be used only as a commercit
communication, shall be constructed, at the option of Hollanj
either by engineers and workmen whom Belgium shall obtai'
permission to employ for that purpose in the canton of Sittard`•
or by engineers and workmen to be furnished by Holland, an,
who shall execute the works agreed upon at the expence
Belgium ; the whole without any charge whatsoever to Holland
and without prejudice to her exclusive rights of sovereign(
over the territory which may be traversed by the road or cans
in question.
The two parties shall fix, by mutual agreement, the amour)
and the mode of collection of the duties and tolls which shormr?
be levied upon the said road or canal.
Article X In—§ 1. From and after the Ist of January, MI:.
Belgium, with reference to the division of the public debt of the
United Kingdom of the Netherlands, shall remain charged wit`
the sum of 8,400,000 Netherland florins of annual interest, the
capital of which shall be transferred from the debt of the Gres
Book at Amsterdam, or from the debit of the general Treasur!
of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands, to the debit of the
Great Book of Belgium.
§ 2. The capitals transferred, and the annuities inscribed upon
the debit of the Great Book of Belgium, in consequence of the
preceding paragraph, to the amount of the total sum of 8,400,002
Netherland florins of annual interest, shall be considered
forming part of the Belgic National Debt; and Belgium engage/

not to admit, either at present or in future, any distinction be•
tween this portion of her public debt arising from her unior,
with Holland, and any other Belgic National Debt alreadf
created, or which may be created hereafter.

§ 3. The payment of the above-mentioned sum of 8,400,00 C

Netherland florins of annual interest, shall take place regularl)
every six months, either at Brussels or at Antwerp, in read)'
money, withcut deduction of any kind whatsoever, either al
present or in future.

§ 4. In consideration of the creation of the said sum of 8,400,004
florins of annual interest, Belgium shall be released from all nb•
ligation towards Holland, on account of the division ofthe public
debt of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.
5. Commissioners to be named on both sides shall meet
within the space of fifteen days in the town of Utrecht, in order
to proceed to a settlement of the accounts of the fund of tht
syndicat d'amortissement, and of the Bank of Brussels, charged,
with the service of the general Treasury of the United Kingdos
of the Netherlands. No additional charge shall result to Bel'
gium from this settlement ; the sum of 8,400,000 florins of all'
unities comprehending the whole of the charge which she is to

take upon herself But if it should appear from some settle
meat that there is a balance to be received, Belgium and Hol
land shall share the same in the proportion of the taxes pai4
by each of the two countries during their union, according to tbl
Budgets voted by the States-General of the United Kingdom Ui
the Netherlands.

§ 6. In the settlement of the Administration of the sinkial
fund shall be compris&l the credits secured on the public lands
called Domein los renten. These arealluded to in the present
Article only for the purpose of record.
§ 7. The Dutch and Belgian Commissioners mentioned in
§ 3 of the present Article, and who are to meet In the town-0
Utrecht, shall, in addition to the settlement with which the)!
are charged, proceed to the transfer of the capitals and annul.'
interest which, upon the division of the public debt of the
l
United Kingdom of the Netherlands, are to fall to the charge)
of Belgium, up to the amount of 8,400,000 florins of annual irate''
rest.

They shall all proceed to deliver up the archives, maps, piauF,
and other documents whatsoever which belong to Belgium, of
which relate to her Administration.
Article X 1 V.—Holland having, since the Ist of November,
1830, exclusively made all the necessary advances to meet the

charge of the whole of the public debt of the kingdom of the
Netherlands, and having still to make those advances, for the
half year ending the Ist of January, 1832, it is agreed that the

said advances, calculated from the Ist of November, 1830,
the Ist of January, 1,5.30, for fourteen months, at the rate
„ . _ _

8,,100,004,) Netherland florins per annum, with which BelgiUrS
remains charged, shall be reimbursed by thirds to the Dutch
Treasury, by the Treasury of Belgium. The first third of this
reimhursement shall be paid by the Belgian to the Dutch Trek
sury on the Ist of January, 1&32, the second on the Ist of April'
and the third on the Ist of July, of the same year. On the tW°
last thirds, interest at the rate of five per cent. per annum shsll
be paid to Holland, until they are completely discharged at the
aforesaid periods.

Article XV.—The port of Antwerp, in conformity with the
stipulations of the 15th Article of the Treaty of Paris, of the
30th May, 1814, shall continue to be solely a port of commerce,
Article XVL—Works of public or private utility, such eS
canals, roads, or others of a similar nature, constructed whoa
or in part at the expence of the United Kingdom of the Nether'
lands, shall belong, together with the advantages and charge
thereunto attached, to the country in which they are situated•
It is understood that the capitals borrowed for the construe'
tion of these works, and specifically charged thereupon, shall bg
comprised in the aforesaid charges, in so far as they may 111:4
yet have been repaid, and without giving rise to any claim 00
account of repayments already made.

Article XVII.—The sequestrations which may have beer'
imposed in Belgium during the troubles, for political causes, on
any property or hereditary estates whatsoever, shall be taken if
without delay, and the enjoyment of the property and este/
above-mentioned shall be immediately restored to the lard°
owners thereof.

Article XVI I I.—ln the two countries of which the separatiO
takes place in consequence of the present Articles, inhabitant 6
and proprietors, if they wish to transfer their residence from one
country to the other, shall, during two years, be at liberty la
dispose of their property, moveable or immoveable, of whateve‘
nature the same may be, to sell it, and to carry away the produee
of the sale, either in money or in any other shape, without
hindrance, and without the payment of any duties other tho
those which are now in force in the two countries upon change
and transfers.

It is understood that the collection of the droit d'attbaine
de detraction upon the persons and property of Dutch in,
Belgium, and of Belgians in Holland, is abandoned, both now
and for the future.

Article XlX.—The character of a subject of the two (4;
rernments, with regard to property, shall be acknowlelged
maintained.

Article X X.—The stipulations of Articles from 11 to 21,
elusive, of the Treaty concluded between Austria and Russia'
on the 3d May, 1815, which forms au integral part of the gene',
Act of the Congress of Vienna, stipulations relative to person''
who possess property in both countries, to the election of re6l"
deuce which they are required to make, to the rights which their
r
shall exercise as subjects of either State, and to the relations
neighbourhood in properties cut by the frontiers, shall be sri:
plied to such proprietors, as well as to such properties in llf°
land, in the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, or in Belgium, at
shall be found to come within the cases provided for by the afofe
said stipulations of the Acts of the Congress of Vienna. be,
droits d'aleboine et de detraction being henceforth abolished, a'
between Holland, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, and Bel,
glum, it is understood that such of the above_mentioned stij'
lations as may relate to those (Jutish, shall be considtre.l null a,'
void in the three countries.

Article XXL—No person in the territories which changC
domination, shall be molested or disturbed in any manner
whatever, on account of any part which he may have take'',

. .
directly or indirectly, in political events.
Article XX IL—The pensions and allowances of expectant''
of persons unemployed or retired, shall in future be paid, 47r'i
either side, to all those individuals entitled thereto, both eisl
and military, conformably to the laws in force previous to the
lit Nov., IS3O. _

It is agreed that the above mentioned pensions and alloo'
antes to persons born in the territories which now constitOte
Belgium, shall remain at the charge of the Belgian Treasury,'
and the pensions and allowances of persons born in the tril`f
tories which now constitute Holland, shall be at the charge c'

the Dutch Treasury.
Article XX 111.—All claims of Belgian subjects upon sPt
private establishments, such as the widows' fund, and the 11111‘f
known under the denomination of the fonds dcs leges, anti
the chest of civil and and military retired allowances, shad
examined by the Mixed Commission of Liquidation mentiolw.