The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-09 00:00:00

tithes now due to their, as the Attornay-Genctal for hea
,and should think to be necessary for their support. If
his Majesty's Ministers had shown any disposition to ad ipt
coercive measures, without substituting for the tithe sys-
tem some other leas rexatieua, he would not have given
them his support. But be had done so, in a confident
hope that it would not be necessary to use any-new powers
that should be given ; but that liberal inducements would
be held tett to the people to pay the tithes now is arrear,
without the necessity, on the part of the Government,
of having recourse to any severities. It was with that
view he bad agreed to the report of the Committee.—
( Hear.) Under all the circumstances, he did not think that
Ministers would have dine their duty, if they did not
pledge themselves to measures of conciliation and relief at
the same time that they called for powers to put down
the combination.—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said that his Hon. Friend, the Mem-
ber for Armagh, and other Gentlemen, bad argued not
upon the propositions which it was intended to submit to
the Committee, but upon what they supposed to be those
propositions ; and they expressed their views in rather.
strong language. Now they ought not to have done that
until they heard the propositions. But the most extraor-
dimity statement was that which same Gentlemen !tad
male as to the effect of going into Committee. Some
Gentlemen said, that by consenting to the Committee
they would pledge themselves to concur in the propositions
which his Right Hon. Friend (Mr Stanley) had to sub-
mit. There was no mts:+n to suppose any such thing.
It had also been s.i.i, that it was the usual course, in ask-
ing for a Committee, to state the resolutions which it was
intended to propose. That also he denied. It was true
th it when a Commit-ee of the whole House was moved
for respecting the Catholic Claims, the Gentleman who
made the motion explained his views at the same time.
But there was no analogy b. tween the two cases ; for, on
the Catholic Question a large proportion of the Members
of that H muse were strongly opposed to any alteration in
the laws affecting the Roman Catholics, and it was there-
fore necessary for the Government who applied for the
Committee to convince the House that some alteration
was expedient. But, in the present case, the Gentlemen
who opposed the motion for a Committee of the whole
House were the very persons who most insisted on the
necessity of an alteration. (Hear.) They were the last per-
sons he should have thought, who would object to the
ferm and course of proceeding. But there was another
objection, which he considered to have much more weight.
Teat was, -that the House ought not to proceed without
further information than it at present possessed. That
was an ere ument which he thought it was his duty to meet.
Now what was the objection to the present information?
First, that it was ex parte: that the Committee had ex-
atointd only one side, and that the persons examined were
connected with the Established Church. But he thought
that the information received from those persons was
sufficient to induce Ministers to submit to a Committee
of the whole House some propositions for a change of
the present system; and that the information ought to be•
so tar satisfactory to the advocates of a change.—(Hear.)
It had been proved that the clergy were in the greatest
distress, and that there was the greatest difficulty in col-
lecting tithes ; that a combination to resist the pay-
ment of tithes existed in one part of Ireland, and was
spreading- over the whole country; and that if a change
did not teke place, the payment of the revenues of the
clergy would cease throughout Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
It was proven', therefore, that the state of things was
such as to make a change of system necessary. Under
those circumstances, therefore, he thought that the in-
formation on the table of the House was sufficient to mike
it the imperative duty of the House to consider what re-
medies ought to be adopted. But, undoubtedly, previous to
the change of system which was necessary, and which must
be provided by inquiry and deliberation, there existed a
pressing and urgent necessity for immediate action.—
( Hear.) Was it to be said, then, that when the necessity
was pressing and urgent, they (the Ministers) ought to
defer the remedy, because they had not an extended mea-
sure ready to propose for the consideration of the House ?
Th it would he as unwise and improper a course—as in-
c n intent with the duty of the House, as he was sure it
would be inconsistent with the honour and the duty of any
Government, to apply for measures to coerce the people
without giving at the saute time a specific pledge that re-
Fel would be afforded.—(Hear, hear.) He had not risen
to follow the Hon. Gentlemen who opposed the Com-
mittee through all their arguments respecting the general
question, but only to state the reasons wherefore he thought
that time House ought to go into Committee.

Mr. LEADER said that the Irish Members felt it to be
their duty to put upon record that they protested against
lily new measure for the collection of tithes, unaccompanied
by a specific pledge that the whole system should be re-
fienied.—(ll-aar, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Stanley) had done that which no Secretary would
dare to do to an English House of Commons on an
English question, in calling for a Committee of the whole
House, without stating either the grounds upon which he
applied for it, or the measures for which he intended to
call for its approbation. For his part, he (Mr. Leader)
would not object to relieving the clergy, who were really
distressed ; but he could not help thinking that the die-
tress was much exaggerated, when he considered, that out
of a revenue of 800,0001. a year, which the Protestant
Clitirch in Ireland possessed, the arrears amounted only to
80,0001.—(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he
did not think that a case had been made out for their re-
lief out of the revenue of the State, much less for arming
them with coercion and penal laws.—(Hear.) The oppo-
sition to the payment of tithes was confined to three dio-
ceses ; but it was proposed to extend the penal law to all
Ireland. Yet in those three dioceses—Ossory, Cashel,
and Leiehliu—there were 378 parishes of whict, the tithes
were enjoyed by fifty individuals ; and, of those distressed
clergymen, one had been for a long time in receipt of the
tithes of fourteen parishes, and others of nine parishes each.
Sir 11. PARNELL said he never knew an instance of
a proposition to go into Committee,
.upon any subject
whetevtr, without the individual Member who made the
proposition for going intoCinntnittte coming forward, and
explicitly stating the grounds upon which he called upon
the 1-louse to take that step, and, at the same time, fully
developing to the House the plan which he meant to call
upon them to pursue. That w:s the course of proceeding
adopted upon the Catholic Question, and he recom-
mended Hon. Members to require it upon the present oc.
p p n
vigour
oreuiysrh would.,a,A:nehlinrtaelemtibseacbou:
Member
tobirpehtrvoowooirur,
opportunity
_aoylnli,ltiytwny couldaiitgoyi-fi,
casion ; fur, if they did not, they would lose One oppor-
eepgsreltooysv'teseheGHovoeursnemteonta.rmiHnge
tnnity of stopping that which they conceived to be a base
measure. He was thoroughly convinced that the measure
which he had reason to suludldw
for-
War.t
ruinous.w was
s Wohnye, wthheinc,hsh‘ovtt:
voting against it? It was in vain that they endeavoured
to shut their eyes to the fact that stared them in the face ;
hiGnitatvitleearvtne ri
Government
smew,i nizttillilileyyt i ignorant,nw,uwaisdaesd
0 i.
ig-
norant of the plan of his Apileadj
for one had heard the resolutions which had been moved
in anoth. r place ; and if similar resolutions were adopted
the view of coercing the people of Ireland, and com-
pelling them to pay tithes. 11 was. not opposed to
. relief to the clergy which their present condi-
tiongivine that
demanded. There
re-
payment to the Government—that t
rthat the meansl%" the real question.
by which that ob-
ject he really thought
eff • d ecte would not succeed. They
be opposed to that part of the planbat ;,but the anode of
'
had the most distinct proof. in the evidence given be-
ittee that it could nut succeed. To his
fore the Comm
ject was
ce was knowledge that evidep !lost correct. He entertained
slightest doubt that it would not succeed ; there
not the
one of the forty or fifty Irish Members who s
was not __ up-
vernment would tell the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Government
I)the had the slightest chance of success.
tleman that plan .
resold just ask the Right Hon. Gentleman--was there any
He
of his Irish supporters who gave him the slightest encou-
ragement to proceed ? The present was, indeed, a serious
case, and one which could not be trifled with; and how
did it stand ? The Right Hon. Gentleman brought for-
ward a measure for the relief of the Irish people, and every
one of his Irish supporters in that House was opposed to
proposed to
it. He thought that th t very fact of itself ought to satisfy
the Right Hon. Gentlern in that he had much better have
waited until he could lay the entire report and all the evi-
dence upon the table of the Muse.
Mr. J. GRATTAN regretted the necessity of voting
against his Majesty's Government. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman seemed to think that his plan must succeed, but he
(Air. G.) was quite of a different opinion. He was a
m mber of the Committee, and he had not the slightest
difficulty in saying that there was nothing like sufficient
evidence to support the case which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman thought essential to thesuccess of his plan. No man
could doubt that the clergy were entitled to the protection
of the law, but it was equally certain that there was not
sufficient evidence to entitle the clergy to that amount of
neiricaplytiienng,
a to s
aParliament.pr
precedent Parliamentary relief which it was understood would be
proposed. Not that he objected to their relief; but this
he did think, that some means ought to be devised for
obviating
fraught with danger. There was nothing that would satisfy
the people of Ireland but a total change in the appropria-
tion of the revenue derivable from tithe. cedent , wHae
s
thought thati'necessity e
such
cety
an of
application, applying
Mr. STANLEY, looking at the time of night, felt that
it would be impossible for, him to do that which he should
have wished to do, had he been permitted, nateselye—So
lay before the House in one view the plans, intentions,