The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAR_ LIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(I YESTERDAY).
The LORD CHANCELLOR took hiss eat on the woolsack
at five o'cicock.

PRIVATE BUSINESI
The following bills, on the motion of G ord REDESDALE,
were read a second time :—Bridport Rai It may; Droitwich
Roads ; Hinckley and Melbourne Road, z ; Ringwood,
Christchurch, and Bournmouth Railway; Co wes and New-
port, Isle of Wight, Railway ; Stokes Bay , Railway =d-
rier.

THIRD REAINGS.
The following bills were read a D
second and thin.l time and
passed :—Earl Vane's Estate, Portsmouth Nes.," Dock,
Brecon and Merthyr-Tydvil Junction Railway, Cilaring-
cross Railway, London, Brighton, and South-Coast Rail-
way, and Lands Improvement Company.
LORD LYNDHURST AND MR. BRIGHT—THE NATIONAL 'DEFENCES.
Lord LYNDHURST—I wish to ask the noble duke op-
posite (the Duke of Somerset) a question. But before Ido
so your lordships will perhaps allow me to make a few ob-
servations on a matter personal to myself. My lords, I am
informed that an hon. member, supported and backed up by
a noble lord in another locality, if I may so express myself.
has made certain charges against me with reference•to what
fell from me the other night in the course of the discussion
upon the defences of the country. One of those charges is ,
undoubtedly true. The hon. member stated that I was an
" old matt," or an " aged man," or an "old peer," for there
are varied readings of this classical attack. (Laughter.) I ,
can only say that I must plead guilty to that part of the
charge, while at the same time I cannot but admire the sar-
mini so pointed, so keen, so bitter, so creditable to the taste
and talent of the hon. gentleman who made this extraordi-
nary discovery. So much for this part of the charge. Another
more serious part of the charge was to this effect, that the
doctrines I laid down were not doctrines at all suited to the
present day, to the present enlightened state of society, that
they were referable to a period of, I think, 60 years back, or
some such period. But, my lords, this part of the charge I
must bring to your recollection is perfectly unfounded, and,
if I may venture to say so, perfectly untrue. For what was
the course of observation I pursued ? It was the most
simple course that any man could have adopted. I m
minded your lordships thatlitherto we had been in a stater
of perfect security at home and abroad with respect to our
honour and interests, in consequence of the superiority of
our navy. That was my statement. I went on to say
that naval warfare had assumed a new shape, and a shape
of such a character that it was impossible for us to say
with confidence that we could rely upon such a state of
security. And I called upon your lordships and upon the
Government to do everything in their power to put the
country, both in its military and naval defences, in such a
state as would restore us to the security that we have
hitherto enjoyed. (Hear.) I entered, perhaps, too much
into detail, but I never deviated for one moment from
that line of argument. Ido not believe that there is a con- -
scientious man in this country, except the individual to
whom I have referred, and who made this charge against
me, who would differ in opinion from what I stated. Ido
not believe that any man who has the heart of an English-
man would have dissented from that statement. My lords,
it is very well for Englishmen inprivate life, when they are
smitten upon one cheek, to turn the other cheek to the
smelter. But that is not my feeling, and least of all ought it
to be the feeling of a great and powerful nation. I might
cite a passage from an eminent orator—an Athenian orator
—which I think somewhat in point. He says in substance,
" Nations build large fortresses and lay out great sums of
money for that purpose, but there is one common bulwark
which every prudent man will take care to maintain. It is
the great security of all nations, particularly of free States,
against foreign despotic power." He goes onto ask, "What
is this ?" The answer he gives is, "Distrust, distrust. Be
mindful of that, adhere to it, and you will be free from al-
most every calamity." I thought it right, perhaps neces-
sary, to give this explanation, as to the substance of what I
stated the other night in contradiction of those unfounded
charges which have been preferredagainatmein thelocality
to which I refer. The question I have to put to the noble
duke is this—l am sure the noble duke will not think it re-
quires any previous notice--whether he is aware that the
French are arming their fleet on the other sideof the Chan-
nel with rifled cannon ? I put this question because from
the reports I have heard it would appear that the rifled can-
non we are preparing will not extend to above 100 in the
present year, and 200 in the following year, whereas it is
said the French rifled cannon are manufactured with such
rapidity that they will be able to arm their fleet in that
mode long before we can make use, to any extent, of the
rifled cannon of Sir W. Armstrong.
The Duke of SOMERSET, who was barely audible in
the gallery, was understood to say that the noble and
learned lord's explanation of what he said on a former occa-
sion did not agree with the impression which the noble
and learned lord's observations on that occasion made on
his (the Duke of Somerset's) mind. He thought at the
time that the noble and learned lord added to his observa-
tions many remarks which were necessarily offensive to
other nations. He thought the noble and learned lord might
have given the advice which he tendered on that occasion,
and which came with such weight from a person of his high
authority, without mixing it up with liiingnage necessarily
offensive to susceptible nations abroad. That was the ob-
jection which he made to the noble and learned lord's re-
marks at the time. With regard to the question put by the
noble and learned lord, he had only to say that of course he
had heard the report, though that report was not based on
any authentic information in his possession, that some rifled
cannon had been prepared in the arsensals of France. He
was aware also that although we had very ..:zany improved
cannon in the course of manufacture, our cannon would not
be, according to our system of manufacture, ready for many
months to come. But that was not, the whole matter. There
were many questions connected with the subject to which
the inquiry of the noble and learned lord referred. He did
not, however; think it desirable that he should now enter
into a discussion of the questions connected with the im-
provement of cannon, which were now under the considera-
tion of the department to which they properly belonged.
He therefore must decline to follow the noble and learned
lord into that discussion, to show what we had done in that
way in answer to what the noble and learned lord imagined
the French had done.
Lord LYNDII URST—I think the observations made by
the noble duke are utterly unfounded. I put this question ;
I said—persons will ask me, perhaps, whether I did not
place confidence in the promises and assurances of the Em-
peror of tne French ? I said—Let every man answer that
question for himself, as he may think advisable ;
for myself, I answer it in this way—l will not
trust the liberties of this country, its honour, and its in-
terests, to any declarations or promises of any friendly
Power, or of any Power whatever. I will rely on my own
power, on my own resources, on my own vigour, and on the
strength of my own right arm. I will not rely in particular.
on the Emperor of the French, because, from his situation,
I think he cannot rely on himself. These are the only ob-
servationi of which I am aware that ever fell from me'on
the occasion in question ; and I appeal to your lordships
whether there is anything that any man, however sensitive,
can complain of in the remarks to which I have alluded.
(Hear, hear.)
The subject was then allowed to drop.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Lord BROUCHAM, who had previously given notice
of his intention to call the attention of the house to the peti-
tions from London, Worcester, and other places, presented
education,b hi m
said, a former
riseivneguintog,doonsot,hheisnl ae
at ilnea ld
subject
nob l e a no fd
friend (Lord Lyndhurst) was not the only member of that
house respecting whose age remarks had been made. He
(Lord Brougham) himself was also a sufferer from such
observations.

Lord LYNDHURST—I don't admit that I am a suf-
ferer. (Laughter.)

Lord BROUGHAM (resuming) was glad to find that his
noble and learned friend did not suffer from such remarks,
no more did he (Lord Brougham). It had, however, cer-
tainly been said, though not " elsewhere," but by a person
now in high office and authority in the East, that he had
grown gray in talking of education, He did not suffer from
that language any more than his noble and learned friend.
Nevertheless he (Lord Brougham) must plead guilty to the
circumstance of having grown gray. He must, however,
continue to follow the course which he had pursued for so
many years, in Parliament and out of Parliament, with
reference to the questicn of education. He had the honour
of presiding over the celebrated Education Committee
which sat in 1816, 1817, and 1818, by whose labours
the subject of national education was invested with an
importance and an interest which it had ever since
sustained in the public mind. On the recommen-
dation of that committee he introduced a Bill into
Parliament, but was prevented from proceeding
with it on account of the objections of the Dissenting body,
who had always been his most able coadjutors in the cause
of education. They had objections to that particular mea-
sure, however, and from regard to their wishes he withdrew
it from Parliament. A long time elapsed before an oppor-
tunity presented itself of again pressing the subject on the
attention of Parliament, but he might mention that before
1818 there were in England 19,400 dad schools, and 5,400
Sunday schools, the former educating 674,000, and the
latter 525,000 children, and that before a single farthing was
paid for the purpose by the State there were beingle
children. The noble and learned lord then tracedusioes
ofthe
in day schools 1,500,000, and in Sunday
pro-
gress of the grants for education under thdehais
schools
th26eoooogp_ratificatio.n
Committee of Privy Council,
which had latterly taken place in
at the great improvement
Another plan had been the administration of the plan.
not be ' lost sight of
however, which he hoped would.resse
pro-
posed, and en
councils to levy an education
that of empowering town
rate in towns under their control, and by means of the
rate to educate the children of any religious denomination,
leaving the parents to decide upon the kind of religion
vhich their children should be taught. The petitioners
laid it
down as a general proposition that the middle
classes had the same right to attention from the Govern-
ment and Parliament as the working classes. The upper
classes and their schools could take care of themselves.
The schools of the working classes had, under the system
established by the Committee of Council on Education, ob-
tained the advantages of inspection, of the training of mas-
ters, and of pupil teachers ; so that while abolishing we had
supplied the place of the monitorial system, against which