The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, AUGUST 155 1835.

the fair trader in this branch were carried away by smugglers;
the heavy duty, whilst it afforded a temptation to the smuggler
to corrupt the officers, also destroyed the trade by shutting out
capitalists, who did not choose to run the risk of paying so
heavy a duty upon property so liable to be destroyed in the
cutting. The duty, therefore, prevented employment,
checked production in this article, and almost excluded ex-
portation by the fair trader. To the reduction of this duty
thought he could proceed without any fear of ultimate
'mg. Though there might be some little loss to the revenue
in the first year of the reduction, he was of opinion that
lowering the duty from Gd. to tid, would put down smug-
gling, improve the article as produced in this country, in-
crease the consumption at home, and extend the foreign
trade, by which means the revenue, so far from losing,
would ultimately gain by the remission. With regard to
the drawback at present allowed, it would of course be re-
duced in proportion to the reduction of the duty. The
duty at present was about 233,0301., which would be
reduced by two-thirds, and this, together with the draw-
backs, would bring it down to about 100,000/. ; but then he
hoped that the increased consumption, even of the first year
after the reduction, would increase the duty by 60,0001., or
70,000/. more, and that the income arising from it hereafter
would be much more than what it produced before the reduc-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) There was another small reduction
which he felt be could make, but, though small in amount, it
would be valuable in its results, as it would be very useful to
the poor classes in Ireland. The reduction which he meant
referred to stamp duties on awards relating to sums below a
certain amount, This measure would encourage references to
arbitration in Ireland, and tend to do away with the spirit of
litigation. The sum thus remitted would be about 5001. It
Wa's Small, to be sure, but at the same time the reduction was
very desirable.
To a question from some Hon. Member, as to whether this
reduction should not take place in England,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that, from the e'rcumstances of Ireland, it was more desirable
and more called for in that country than in this ; and, besides,
if the reduction were made here, it would be made at a great
sacrifice to the revenue. He would trespass upon the House
with but a few words mores
Though always anxious that
the revenue should be in a state
to support the public credit,
still, as regarded the amount of the public burdens, they
6uld not go back. He had alienclY shown by comparison
much had been 'accomplished, and even the Hon. Member
for Middlesex conld not complain that d reduction had not
taken place in the amount of money ex
Con pecled in the collec-
of the taxes since the year 1820.
HUM E made some observation, which the' interven-
'' of the Speaker's chair prevented us from hearing.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
farther
not contendthat this reduction ought not to be carries:
turther than its a amount, namely, 626,362/. ; but even
resent
btelds, was. below what the Hon. Member for Middlesex himself
ail estimated as the amount of reduction which could pro-
'ably be calculated on when the Hon. Gentleman made bis
za,ernorable speech upon reduction in the year 1817. Whilst
the
this part of the subject he would refer to the report of
• e Comnittee upon Sinecures to show that beyond existing
interests there were no traces of sinecures to be found. The
-lght Hon. Gentleman here quoted from the report of the
Intnittee to show the amount of reduction in sinecures and
pensions since 1810 but we could not gather the particulars.
Hec__ had now gone, through his statement, and thanked the
nrirnittee for the attention with which he had been heard.
„„
no result would, on the whole, be found satisfactory as re-
ar
the revenues and resources
of the country. So far
tore, these resources having diminished, they would be found
e 7, Ina most flourishing condition, and calculated to rasiin-
Co 1" its integrity the national honour and faith,--( Cheers.)
hinPared with the credit of other countries that of ours stood
her now than ever; and, compared with other periods of
t own
etra history, the terms of the late loan which had been
Viated told highly in its favour.—( Cheers.)
Honr.°,IILBURN had heard the statement of the Right
admit Gentleman with the closest attention, and was happy to
Part, heft the result was quite satisfactory. For his own
ing she ~-a° never for a moment entertained a doubt concern-
eeeasiowerurces of the country, but, on the contrary, on every
that that he had the honour to address the House on
rtions
'axe I.3ubject, he always spoke in the highest tone as to the
whi
A which she could make. With regard to the surplus
burn' the Hon. Gentleman retained, he (Mr. Goul-
) Right
Wise' would not enter into the question, whether or not it was
k ,en depart from the usual system hitherto adopted by
cert;.`", admitted talent. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
eit,,Jc'Y not put out of view the necessity of retaining some
have
'ss but it was less than what he ( Mr. Goulburn) should
aeon considered advisable to retain. With regard to the allu-
to which the Right Honourable Gentleman had made as
as "ana contracted by former Governments at former times,
thoetontrasted with the late loan, and his apparent blame of
e Administrations for not contracting their loans on ter-
_
wereable annuities, it should be remembered that those loans
:ma contracted in periods of difficulty, and during a heavy
the
iptr.otracted war. Indeed, in another part of his speech,
tole ight Hon. Gentleman had furnished the best answer,
in there described the difficulty of contracting the late loan
looked Present period of peace and prosperity, when affairs
difeeul so promising, and capital was redundant. If such
temi tY attended the raising of a loan of fifteen millions on
mot nitabie annuities under such favourable circumstances,
and not hare been tenfold greater during a period of war,
t hen the country was placed under such different circum-
stances With regard to the proposed reductions of his Right
th F`rimad, he ( Mr. Goulburn) looked upon them rather in
/roe light of trade regulations than reductions of taxation, and,
"eed, beii„inz it impossible at present to reduce the reve-
t„,u;e,B with a due-re,eard to public faith, he was ready to share
.util his Right Min:- Friend any unpopularity which a refusal
t 0 , •
reduce the taxes migct subject him to. After the statement
tof the
Right Hon. Gentleman, no doubt could remain as to
increased prosperity of tiee country, and the only question
uieh could arise was as to its extent. This general improve-
ment of the country must, as g matter of course, extend in
s,laie degree to the agricultural inn.arest. But when any di-
advantaee, or any diminution of the burdens, could be
-"orded for any particular class, he hoped the House would
ate° with him in thinking that the agricultural interest
eVd be the object of that relief.
th HAWK E S congratulated the country on the relief
f:_t, Was premised to the glass trade, which had never been
w_fiY treated, in consequence of which three parta of the trade
ttuastiecarried on by smugglers. In consequenoe of the heavy
iin the which pressed upSm it, other countries were rivalling us
teieopt: rei;oltdhuection of the article, and the greater part of
.our
staecrtn trade was in the hands of the smugglers, notecivieuthe-
vigilance of the Excise. The proposed r f -
from thOeu'd give employment to starving hundreds, and so ar
to be in revenue being reduced, it would be found eventually
Colonel
Gentlemill SI -THORP complained that the Right Hon.
an w
relatinrr
flalluded to the
c
is to two ,eu to make one reservation, viz., that
general e,„ - agricultural interest, when
thsiririty,
"eluded general which
No prosperity would be
c. n„arge and valuable class.
House litif',u LL ER said he could not congratulate the
the manner in which the Chancellor of the Ex-
be goneer
roPosed to deal with his surplus. Nothing was to
should L'ut. the agricultural interest • though, to be sure, it
ea all demands 'agriculturists were
not e. ~ owed that the of the agricu
large usilY to be satisfied. But there were several other
tech and iinPdrtant classes for whom the Chancellor of the
for inequer did not propose to do anything. He had hoped,
siodesatance, that the Right lion. Gentleman would have
empire to the loud and universal call from all quarters of the
sre,
a, and have repealed, at least in part, the tax upon
;__slp pers.—( Laughter and cries of " Oh, oh I") He ex-
' eted that I h It had al-
, aug from the Gentlemen opposite. tal} n been the policy of the party to which those Gentlemen
ee,"_ ged to prevent the circulation of political knowledge
ZulT2gst the people. He had expected that the present Mi-
;l7 after the experience they had bad of the effects of the
;oeirnt monopoly of the public press, would have seen the
tvici:Y of opening the channels of public information from
sta r and purer sources, of a reduction of the
end duties, instead cf the contemptible reductions on glass
t; spirit licenses, the benefits of which would be blit par-
'4l,lY felt.
h DIVETT :aid that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
faitha very small sum SO deal with, and therefore it was hardly
to
.1.1 expect any considerable reduction of taxation from him.
ten" was very glad the Rieit Hon. Gentleman had paid at-
tion to the sub` f e • dI d consented
ject o spirit c nsss, an la
Partial'
two., yto reduce the burdens eehich so onerously, and, he
a„l.!ghts unfairly, pressed upon them. With respect to news-
-1 stamps, to which the Hon. and Learned Member who
th._‘:Poke hod alluded, he agreed in a great measure with
tit!. iews of that Hon. and Learned Member, and :-se believed
ttelifothe Chancellor of the Exchequer had tried the Cesueri-
ve_": f reducing the stamps, say a penny below what th.‘v t...yr at present, he would not have found any inconvenience
`a% it.
Sir c B
the b. C. • V PRE said he was sorry to cast any gloom over
aion.l),PY pictures of commercial prosperity which the Right
e.ne Chancellor of the Exchequer had presented to the
tionush , but there really was one class of people whose condi-
state
_at. loeg formed an exception to the generally prosperous
eeet_t the country ; namely, the agricultural interest. The
is,
c„.7rs cf land had suffered for
.years, and were still suffhr-
tiZe :Ns:v.ously, particularly under the operation of local taxa-
t!neli pressed with peculiar severity upon them. He
sitir`al.. he Government would take this subject into their con-
their ,"°n, and devise some means of mitigating the severity of
local burthens.
matt t' T. FREMANTLE had great pleasure in compliment-
the vie Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon
had .erY clear, elaborate, and satisfactory manner in which be
listeen
J"t explained his financial views to the House. He had
ed wi
'entievnath great attention to the address of the Right Hon.
With „ n, and he must confess that he had also listened
h, tune greatest satisfaction. At the same time, however,
,?1 st say, that lie did not think the revenue was precisely
eh Hat buoyant condition which the Chancellor of the Ex-
r4tille7ir had contemplated. When Lord Althorp effected the
Matter °" ef the house duties, and those upon spirits and other
Tor 8, the Noble Lord calenlated the consequent deficiency
resent current year at 736,0001.; upon going through the
it a_e t Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement, however
ir„.PPeared that the actual deficiency "51 000/ In mak-
e this . was , •
calculation, he gave the Right Hon. Gentleman cre-
og h(itirsa full twelvemonth's loss from the repealed duties up-
to have es' Spirits, ece. whereas, in reality, he ought only to
year.
hoe
the loss of three quarters in the present
actual
,fle was afraid, therefore, that in subsequent years the
Tireentml,°.ts would be yet more considerable. Under these
'quite
..,:,•,nep he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was
.presenetietit in not attempting any great financial reductions at
'of the This timely prudence on the part of the Chancellor
it iii
iiis,xchequer gave promise that whenever he might have
Ofect
~,,power to reduce taxation, be would do it wisely and

Mr. HUME said he was sorry to hear the Hon. Baronet
opposite lavishing praise upon the statement of the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, though be was by no means,strrprised
at it. It was just like them (the Opposition party) •it was
their maxim to keep up taxation to the highest possible point.
With respect to the contemplated reductions of the Right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, particularly that of
the duty upon glass, he (Mr. Hume) was extremely sorry that
he could not give them great praise. He deprecated alto.
gether the principle of reducing the amount of a tax, and still
keeping up the expense and vexation of collecting it. To
reduce a tax, and still keep up the vexatious and irksome
machinery of collection, was holding out a hope only to dis-
appoint it. Taxation by means of excise he considered the
most mischievous and tyrannical that could possibly be devised.
It was a system of espionage from beginning to end—there
was no stage of any manufacture into which it was introduced,
which was not thrown open to the inquisitorial proceedings of
the Excise Office. Therefore he hoped, if the Chancellor of
the Exchequer touched the duty upon glass at all, he would
take it off altogether. An Hon. Baronet opposite had drawn
the attention of the House to the subject of agricultural dis-
tress. He (Mr. Hume) agreed that distress existed amongst
the agriculturists to a very considerable extent. But this he
predicted, that as long as the landed Gentlemen persisted in
keeping up the enormous expenses of a standing army, besides
the yeomanry and the militia, as long as they concurred in the
extravagant expenditure in the various departments of home
and colonial government, as long as they persisted in the line
of policy which they had hitherto so pertinaciously espoused, so
far from their distresses being alleviated they must go on from
bad to worse. \Vith regard to what was said of local taxation,
he maintained that the agricultural interest had long ago been
relieved from every tax which could possibly be be said to press
upon them.—( Hear, hear.) Moreover, they were protected
by the law in the enjoyment of an extensive monopoly, which
did not profit them much to be sure, for he believed that it
operated as injuriously upon themselves as upon the commu-
nity at large. Until the agricultural interest acted honestly
they did not deserve any relief. They were acting unjustly
in keeping up the monopoly upon corn.— (No, no.) Yes, he
maintained that they were acting unjustly to their fellow coun-
trymen in persisting in that monopoly. Country gentlemen
would soon find, to their cost, that they were ruining them-
selves and the country also. The Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir
T. Fremantle) seemed to be under some apprehension as to
the future state of the revenue. Now he (Mr. Hume) sin-
eerelyshoped those anticipations would not be realised. The
customs \ were in an improving state, owing to the redifetion
upon the spirit duties; so much so that he wished the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had taken courage from the result
of that experiment, and reduced the custom duties upon
other articles; for instance, tobacco, which, it was noto-
rious, under the existing duties offered great temptations
id-. the smuggler to undersell the fair trader and de-
franc: the revenue. If the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer court but reduce his duty upon this article below the
figure point of smuggling, he bad no doubt all parties would
be gainers, and the fair trader would acknowledge an act of
justice in the reduction. He came now to a sore point be-
tween his Right Hon. Friend and himself, upon which he felt
compelled to touch. He was' extremely grieved at finding
that his Right lion. Friend had not .condescended so much as
to notice the prayers of the tens of thousands of petitioners
who had called upon the House to relieve them from the
shackles upon knowledge.—( Hear, and Oh, oh.) The people
felt that those taxes had been put on for the purpose of keep-
ing them in ignorance ; that they had been put on in bad
times by bad men—be must call them so—who had no desire
to promote the interests of the many, and who were anxious
to promote the interests of a bad Government. The Right
Hon. Gentleman's statement had been cheered by the opposite
side of the House. His Hon. Friend should always look with
great jealousy upon any approbation which came from that
quarter ; he should beware of the cheers of the Tories.—
( Hear, and laughter.) He might be sure he was in the wrong,
when they cheered, and he would do well to hesitate, and con-
sider whether he ought to advance in it a single step further.
The tax on newspapers ought to be removed at once, at least
the trash Act, as it was called, ought to be repealed. Was it
consistent to establish schools to teach the people to read, and
then to impose a tax which prevented them having books to
read? He hoped the time would come when this shilly-shally-
ing mode of proceeding would be discontinued, and a more
direct course adopted. He called upon the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman to declare whether he contemplated doing anything to
reduce or commute the taxes upon knowledge ?
Mr. HANDLE .Y rose to call the attention of the House
to the subject of agrieultural distress. He was sorry that
he could not concur with the Hon. Member for Middlesex,
that all had been done for the relief of the landed interest
that could be done. Much sympathy bad been expressed
from time to time in the speeches from the Throne for the
unhappy condition of the once flourishing class of British
yeomanry, but nothing of substantial relief was accorded them,
or thought of by the Legislature. He intreated the House to
do a tardy act of justice and humanity, and to devise some
means of reducing the burdens under which all persons con-
nected with agricultural matters had so long laboured.
Colonel RUSHBR 0 OKE suggested that as the experi-
ment of reducing the spirit duties had succeeded so well in
Ireland it should also be extended to Scotland.
Mr. BL AMIRE recommended a reduction of the excise
regulations with respect to malt.
Mr. 0. GORE said that the agriculturists required no
exclusive privileges or exemptions. They merely claimed
to be fairly and equally dealt with, in common with the
rest of the community, and he, therefore, implored the
House to take their present distresses into consideration.
Major BE AUCLERK complained that the Hon. Members
on the opposite side pressed for a reduction of taxation ; and
yet when propositions of independent members for the re-
duction of expenditurh came before the House they seldom
gave them their support. He regretted that Ministers had
not endeavoured to reduce those taxes which prevented the dif-
fusion of knowledge. The Hon. Member also recommended
that immense sums of money should not be yearly voted to the
colonies, but that the colonists should be left to manage their
own affairs.
Mr. ROBINSON eulogised the lucid order of the finan-
cial exposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
joined with him in thinking that the resources of the kingdom
were capable of far greater developement than they had ever
before undergone. He was bound to admit that, generally
speaking, the manufacturing interests were in an improved con-
dition. Some manufacturing branches were, however, greatly
distressed, and it had been undeniably proved that the 'ship-
ping interests were in a state of lamentable depression. The
Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had therefore made
a great omission in taking the agricultural classes as the only
classes suffering under distress. Still he admitted that he did
not see at present in what way the shipping interest could be
relieved. The Hon. Member recommended a more judicious
system of collection of duties, stating his conviction that up-
wards of a million would thereby be saved. With respect to
{lie reductions made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he
must say that his Right Hon. Friend had made an excellent
selection. Upon the whole the financial statement was very
satisfactory.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that he was not disappointed at the
Budget, considering that those propositions of reduction which
he and his Hon, Friends had frequently made had not re-
ceived the support of the House. The Hon. Member con-
cluded with an attack upon the landed interests.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a few
words in reply.
Mr. H. BUL WE R thought that concessions ought to have
been made with respect to the taxes on the Press.
Several votes being granted the House resumed, and pro-
ceeded on the Orders of the Day.
Mr. A. TREVOR moved the second reading of the Sale
of Beer Bill.

Mr. WARBURTON objected to the Bill, as it would have
the effect of interfering with the existing rights of those who
were engaged in the trade.
Mr. HU ME moved thot the Bill be read this day six months.
The Gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place,
the Bill having been withdrawn.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at half-past one o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Atrausr 14.
The VICEXHANCELLOR took his seat on the. Woolsack
shortly before five o'clock.

Lord FITZGERALD and STE SE Y presented several pe-
titions from St. Katherine's, Dublin, and different parts of
Ireland, praying for the protection of the Protestant Church,
and against the Tithe Bill.
Earl DE GREY presented a petition from Bedford, pray-
ing their Lordships to introduce such clauses in the Municipal
Reform Bill as would protect their rights.
Lord E L ENBORO UG H presented a petition from Wor-
cester against the Municipal Reform Bill.
The Marquis of EXETER presented a similar petition
from Stamford.
Lord ;'9LTIMORE presented a petition from Crediton,
Devonshire, in favour of the Municipal Reform Bill.
The Duke of 1;::(2:HMOND postponed bringing up the
the Highways Bill till Monday.
Report of the Committee .

ing that the Bill was to be debated upon going into Cona-
Inaittee.
The Bill was ordered to be committed on Monday.
Lord FA LMO UTH presented a petition from the Corpo-
ration of Truro. praying to be heard at the Bar, for the purpose
of refuting the accusations that had been brought against them.
Lord BROUGHAM had no doubt there would very shortly
be presented another petition from Truro, which would give a
very different account of the matter.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition from
Deal and Walmer, against the Corporation Bill.
The Marquis of LA NSDOWNE presented a petition in
favour of the Bill, from Sherborne.
The Tea Duties Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Monday.
MUNICIPAL REFORM BILL. •

The House then went into Committee on the Corporation
Bill.

On the reading of the Bth clause,
Lord LYNDHLTRST moved the omission of the second
proviso in this clause; the effect of which would be, to allow
persons, in indifferent circumstances, to be placed on the list
of voters.

Viscount MELBOURNE was very unwillinr, to offer any
factious opposition to the Bitl of the Noble and Learned Loro
—( Laughter and cheers)—tint he should prefer retaining the
proviso notwithstanding..
Lord LYNDHURST—The Noble Viscount is not quite
correct in calling this my Bill, but I am quite certain it is not.
his. I beg to move that the proviso be struck out.
After a few words from Lord PLUNKETT,
The amendment was put and carried, and the clause, as
amended, was agreed to.
Clause 9 was agreed to.
Clause 10.
Lord LYNDHURST moved the omission of this clause,
which would have the effect of conferring double votes.
After a desultory conversation ..the amendment was put and
carried, and the clause was omitted.

Clause 11. ( A verbal amendment having been introduced by
Lord LYNDHURST) was agreed to.
Clause 12, on the motion of Lord LYNDHURST, was
omitted.
Clause 13.
Lord LYNDHURST moved the omission of this clause.
Lord BROUGHAM suggested the expediency of post-
poning

Vis—count MELBOURNE would take that opportunity of
saying, in his own defence, that the observations he had-made
with reference to freemen over-estimating the value of some of
their rights, were abundantly confirmed by some of the same
witnesses as had been produced at their Lordships' bar in op-
position to the Bill, and whose evidence had been so highly
extolled. Mr. Rotherham ,and Mr. Carter, the Mayor and
Town-Clerk of Coventry, in their evidence before the Com-
mittee of the House of Commons, had stated that in their opi-
nion the privilege of turning out cattle on common-land did
more harm than good to those who enjoyed it. The Lammas
lands were widely dispersed, some of them being two miles and
a half from the town, and some nearer ; and their opinion was,
that they were of no benefit. With reference to the present
clause, he would consent to expunge it, reserving to himself,
however, the right of considering whether another might no;
hereafter be substituted in its place.
The clause was then negatived without a division.
Clauses 14 and-15 were then agreed to.
On the 16th clause being read,
Lord LYNDHURST said that he rose with the intention
of proposing an amendment to this clause, and that the nature
of the objections which he felt to the lause would be best

understood by reference to the clause itself. He had formorly
stated that it was not his intention, nor, he believed, the iti-
tention of the Noble Lords round him, to make any objectiim
to the burgess qualification proposed by this Bill. It howe,yer
appeared, that by the clause now before their Lordships
qualification was required for councillors, which, in his opinion,
was most inexpedient and unwise.—( Hear, hear, from the
Opposition.) As the clause at present stood, any person pay-
ing even the smallest amount of rate might become a member
of the council, and take a part in discharging all the important
duties which fell to be performed by persons chosen to that
office. He thought that their Lordships would be of opidlon
that some qualification for the office of councillor ought to be
required.—( Hear, hear.) In the discharge of almost all other
important duties, some qualification was required by law. hi
the other House of Parliament a qualification was required.
A NOBLE LORD made some remark, the purport of which
was not heard.

Lord LYNDHURST continued : He admitted that there
were certain exceptions. There were cases in which no qua-
lification was required, but he spoke of the general practice.
Justices of the peace and magistrates were required to have
a qualification, and what was more important to the question
immediately before their lordships, in every local Act, those
chosen for the performance of the particular duties required
by the Act were required to have a qualification, and in most
instances a pecuniary qualification to a large amount. It was
upon these grounds that he meant to move an amendment to

the present clause. Ile did not mean to say that a pecuniary
qualificatien always secured the selection of persons of in-
telligence, of persons of integrity. He did not mean to as-
sert that that was the effect of a pecuniary qualification, but
at least it had a tendency to that effect—( Hear, hear)—
and it was the kind of security always required. He there-
. .

fore thought in the present instance a qualification should be
required.—( Hear,. hear..) Their_ Lordships would feel bat
the subject was one of no inconsiderAre.diffieulty to fix what
the species of qualification should be. One species of qualifi-
cation was the possession of a certain amount of real or per-
sonal property, but that was liable to objection, because it
was too indefinite. Another species of •-qualification was the
occupancy of a house of a particular value ; but that was li-
able to two objections. In the first place the difficulty of
ascertaining what was the real value of a house, and in the se-
cond place, the difference between the class of persons occu-
pying houses of the same value in different places, as, for
instance, a person occupying a house of the value of 201. in one
place, was a very different person, and in a very different class of
society, from a person occupying a house of the same value in
another place. There was a third species of qualification which
might be adopted, namely, that of rating.--( Hear, hear.)
But that principle was not easy of application. The rating
was not always laid on the full value of the property. In
some places rates were paid to the full value of the property,
in other places to the value of one .half, and in others to the
value of only one-fourth. Considering all the difficulties of
the case, it had occurred to him that the best qualification which
could be adopted, and that which would operate with the
greatest equality in all cases, would .be founded upon the
amount of the rates paid with reference to each particular bo-
rough; that is, that those who should be called upon to admi-
nister the affairs of the borough should be chosen from those
who were the highest rate-payers. He proposed that the rate
payers should be divided into a certain number of classes, and
that from the highest of these classes the persons should be chosen
who should be selected to administer the affairs of the borough.
Acting upon this principle; he proposed that tile. rate-payers
should be divided into six classes, and that the one-sixth of those
who paid the highest amount of rate should be those from whom
the councillors should be selected. This principle he thought
would be more easily applied in all circumstances than any other
which he could recommend ; and it was with that view that he
recommended it to their Lordships. He hoped that their
Lordships would adopt the principle of his amendment, and
apply it to all the towns and boroughs which came within the
operation of the Bill. For the purpose of carrying this amend-
ment into effect, it would be necessary that another list besides
the burgess list should be prepared by the overseers, and be
proposed that that list should be liable to objection in the
same manner as the list of burgesses. He had only to add,
that the amendment which he -meant to move would apply
not only to the clause then under their Lordships' consideration,
but to several clauses which followed it.

Lord BROUG HAM then rose, and said that it was un-
doubted that nothing could be more fit and proper than the
course adopted by the Noble and Learned Lord in moving
his amendment. The Noble and Learned Lord had stated the
grounds upon which he wished to found this material alteration
in the Bill with that clearness and perspicuity for which ho
was distinguished, and had brought forward his amendment at
the most convenient period at which it could be brought for-
ward. As far as regarded his Noble and Learned Friend's pro-
position, it was by far the most important, and by far the
greatest amendment--4 amendment it could be called; for be
considered it as no amendment, but the reverse ; but with re-
gard to his Noble and Learned Friend's proposition, he consi-
dered it the worst objection that had yet been brought against
this Bill, or that could be brought against it during the shun of
this Committee. With respect to the question of qualifiea-.
tion, his Noble and Learned Friend was quite right in saying,
that, generally speaking, a qualification was considered neces-
sary in this country for the purpose of securing fit and proper
magistrates. But his opinion was, that the 100/. qualifleation
required from justices of the peace had no good effect.—( Hear,
hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend had brought the
case of the qualification required by Members of the ether
House of Parliament as an illustration. In his ( Lora:
Brougham's) opinion, the illustration was a singularly infe-
liCitous one as a recommendation of qualification in the ab-
stract. Their. Lordships required ne 911ali4eafien, emiepting
that of birth, or being ennobled but in the other House it
was different, Now, let their Lordships look how the case
stood with regard to the ether House. It was true that his
-Noble and Learned Friend did not take the same principle
for his qualification as that required to entitle a person to be
Aeon 4 Me „her of the other House ; and his Noble and
Learned FriencPs pftipo-sition hail this admitaiia, that it was
not so easily evaded. But witn regard to the qualification
required for a Member of the House of Commons, he ( Lord
Brougham) would say that nothing could be more ridiculous—
( Hear, hear)—nothing could be a greater piece of mummery
than that flualigeatiqq.---( /fear, ileac.) 4 qualiticatfen of
600/. teas required from knights of the shire, and of 3001. from
burgesses of boroughs. These qualifications were absurd
in themselves, in making a difference where no differeire
ought to he 1 and were most absurd in t'fii4, that baying made
the difference, beth classes (lir -Member's Should be jumbled
together, and a freehold qtalification required from both.
But not only was this qualification evaded--not nix voOt
4noingloti§ and absurd, but. yet theist lock will hew it Worked.
There was a qualification required in England and in Ireland,
but none was required for Scotland ; and the only instance
in which. a qualification was not required was that cif
Alemherts her the two UniverOtie§. Noq: let them attend to,
the practical working of this qualifiction.'' 'The Noble and
Learned Lord said that the use of a qualification was to se-
cure Members of a certain stamp of respeetability. Now, it
so happeue4 that tliP law at it inky steq4 Wit that in England
a man was not fit to be a Member of parliament who had no
qualification, while in Scotland a man was 4t ‘Nho had floor.
But did the qualification secure to England better or more
fitting and respectable Members of the Lecrislature?.< Were
the Scotch Members of a lower order ?—( Hear, hear.) Were
they, in point of fact, chosen from among the paupers of the

country worse than the English were ?—( Hear, hear, and • a
laugh.) He would venture to say that there was not one
among the 53 Members for Scotland who was not, in point of
wealth, more than equal to the average of the English or
Irish Members. Yet the English and Irish Members were
qualified with 3001. or 6001., while the 53 Scotch Members
had no qualification at all. Of what use, then, was the quali-
fication ?—( Hear, hear.) It did not keep those out who had
little or no property that was clear, and did it give security
for respectability? Heshould say most unquestionably not—
( Hear.) It was quite true, as was stated by the Noble and
Learned Lord, that local Acts 'generally required a qualifica-
tion—certainly a great number did, although he would under-
take to point out some which did not ; but he ( Lord Brougham)
recollected asking some persons who had an opportunity of
knowing if the qualifications required by local Acts secured
respectability, and the answer was decidedly not.—(Cheers.)
His opinion was, that if there was no pecuniary qualification
required, persons would be the more led to inquire into the
merits of the different candidates, and to scrutinize more nar-
rowly as to their having the more necessary qualification of
suitableness for the office.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If it were
fixed that there should be a pecuniary qualification, persons
would be too apt to consider that as the only one required.
He would now refer to the very alarming, and to him somewhat
astounding_ proposition brought forward by his Noble and
Learned Friend. He did not think that their Lordahips were
aware of the extent to which that amendment went. He would
endeavour to explain it. " You are to look," said the Learned
Lord, " in the first place to the electors, and then to the
places where the elections take place, and then to the duties
to be entrusted to those chosen." Now he (Lord Brougham)
would ask any man of common sense, who looked practically
to the subject without any reference to theory or speculation,
if 'it was likely that the majority of those persons who paid
the rates themselves would choose improper persons to a
situation in which they would have the power not only of
imposing rates, and of managing the affairs and administer-
ing the property of the town but of regulating tile po-
lice ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it likely that the majority qt'. the
voters would say, " Let us look about us and fled a beg-
gar, even if he is not worth three-farthings, and choose
him for a councillor. Here is a Bill which allows us to
choose any man we please ?"—(Hear, hear, hear.) Was it
likely that the voters would vote for beggars, and avoid
men of respectability ? Yet the argument for a qualifica-
tion assumed that, if it assumed any thing,--(Hear, hear.)
He was morally certain that it would in practice be found
_?that none but substantial persons would be chosen, and
that not one councillor in five linndred would be selected who
was not a men of respectable standing in society.--(Cheers.)
It was not the practice of the common people of this country
to be regardless of wealth.—( Hear, hear.) He had never
any occasion to think that the purse was not considered in this
country a test of respectability.—(Hear, hear.) In no place
that he had ever been in was there such regard paid to wealth
as by the majority of his good countrymen.--( Hear, hear.)
He thought that nothing tended to raise persons in the eyes of
their neighbours so much as their being in a good way, and
nothing sooner deprived them of that good opinion than their
falling back in the world, even if there is nothing against
their character. He did not think therefore that it was likely
the persons chosen as councillors would not be respectable.
—( Hear, hear.) Indeed he thought the contrary would more
likely be the rock upon which the voters would split. Let
them now look at the motion of his Noble and Learned Friend.
His Noble Friend said that only those who paid most rates
should be eligible for councillors. This was limiting the
choice of the burgesses to the smallest limit. It was laying
dAn a principle that none but one small and confined class
who paid rates should have the administration of the affairs
of the town. Be • the poison ever so respectable, be he
looked up to as the best burgess of the town, be he ever so
noted for his integrity, his sagacity, his powers of mind, his
experience in offices of public trust, all, all would be pleaded
in vain. He must be excluded. No voter can raise his voice
in his favour if he wishes his vote not to go for nothing. He
is necessarily excluded by this inexorable rule if he has but
one penny less than the numerical fraction of one-sixth to
which his Noble and Learned Friend would limit it? Would
any of their Lordships say that this was not a most grievous
absurdity ?—(Cheers.) And when his Noble and Learned
Friend talked of novelties and innovations, was not this one
of the greatest novelties and most alarming innovations
that ever had been brought before their Lordships? 'He
did not believe that in all the political, commercial, or
private measures which he had ever known to be brought
before Parliament, there was ever such an innovation as this.
The principle of taking one-sixth of the rate-payers, and
making them only eligible,-was to this time quite unknown.
—( Cheers.) In every other case a man might acquire a quali-
fication. He might acquire a qualification for Member of
Parliament; and but for that power the country would have
been deprived of the services of many of the most distinguish.
ed Members of the other House of Parliament—men who edi

feed the world by their wisdom and charmed it by their do-
quence--( Cheers)—but who would not have had an opportunity
of setting a foot in the House of Commons if the rule in that
case was inflexible as that proposed by his Noble and
Learned Friend. The eligibility in the present case was
confined to one limited class, and between that class and
all others a bar was laid, across which no man could set

his foot.—(Cheers.) The proposition of his Noble and
Learned Friend was not only an alarming novelty, but in
principle it was neither founded upon reason nor common
sense.—( Hear, hear.) It was not founded upon enlarged and
li'perahriers-,--forit was .fortricirti -upon •the principle of exelu,
siveness.—( Hear, hear.) It was founded on the worst prin-
ciple of exclusiveness to the aristocracy or oligarchy of
wealth.—(Cheers.) He knew that the adoption of his Noblo
and Learned Friend's amendment would be fatal to the work-

ing of the Bill.—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial BoneWCs.)
It would be just as well for their Lordships to say that the Bill
should not pass at all.—( Great cheering.) Gracious God! had
the people no person to speak for them under the Aristocracy ?
Vas only one-sixth to be represented, and were the rest to
be stigmatized, as the proposition would stigmatize them only
because they were poor ?—( Cheers.) By this, a bachelor who
took an extravagant house might become a member of the
Council, but if he married, lived prudently, and became a
respectable father of a family, he might be excluded front
, taking any part in the affaiP of thc town, This was an inno-
vation tli moat surprising, for it was one which could never
havo boon adopted in even the worst of times.--(Hear, hear.)
'The consequences of it 'would be, that the choice of councillors
would necessarily be made without regard to integrity, to use-
fulness, or to the experience which a man had. It might ex-
clude all those who would be uaeini, witllo it admitted persons
by a test which might 4dmit the worst and most improper cha-
raeters,—( Cheers.) Money was not generally considered as
a qualification, but as a test that the person was respectable—
( Hear)—but the qualification now proposed was worse than
one taken from property in land, for it depended upon the
number of the inhabitants, and the manner in which they might
divide by sig.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The amendment ap-
peared to him to be vague, unsound, ill-advised, and ill-judged
It tended to put into the hands of the wealthy the whole right
of administering the affairs of towns ; and last and worst of all,
it was the first introduction of that principle of exclusiveness
Rhich laid down a barrier which no man could cross.—(Loud
cheers.) The principle of giving the monopoly which this
would create to the richer class would be as much as if it were

said to the poor classes, " They govern you here, and they
hafe got money," and the poor were to be as much excluded
from the affairs of towns as the Irish Catholics were from the
administration of the affairs of the State before passing of the
Catholic Relief Bill, or the slaves in the West Indies before

the passing of the Slavery Abolition• Act. —( Loud Cheers.)
Lord WICKLOW said that the principle was not a new
one, as in the Irish Grand Jury Act, which had passed two
years ago, it was provided that the jury should be selected
from the highest rato-paprs, thereby establishing the prin-
ciple sought to be established by his Noble and Learned
Friend. Ho was therefore surprised to hear the Noble and
Learned Lord opposite declare that this was the first time it
bad boon heard of.

•
Lord BROUGHAM said that the Noble Earl might be
quite correct. He had not been aware that the qualification
had been adopted in that Act; but whether it was qr not, he
considered it a very improper one.--( Hear, and a laugh.) His
attention had not been before called to it,. But if the Noble

Earl wanted- further illustration for his ( Lord Brougham's)
having acceded to Bills in which qualifications were required,
he could have but little difficulty in finding them.- however,
he ( Lord Brougham) would say, that in agreeing to a quali-
fication in any case, it was against his will and his better judg.
ment.—( Hear, hear. )
The Earl of DEVON said, that in the Poor Law Amend.
ment Act a qualification was required4nearly analogous to that
proposed by his Noble and Learned Friend. The guardians
were to be chosen from a oertain olass of rate-payers, and pow-
%YU given to the Commissioners to direct what a•»
qualification should be.—( Hear, hear.) hip "
position of his Noble and Learned F";
per one,

...punt the

,ilought the pro-
.end a rational and pro-

l'h€4Dukt-"Of RIOHMOND opposed the amendment, be-
c'Aiso a lualification was not a test of good character. If
left. to the free choice of the voters, the most respectable
man would naturally be chosen. If this amendment were
carried, the Corporations would do but little good to the
people of England ; for although there might not be so
much self-election as under the present iaw, yet the choice
would be confined to a very limited class.
Lord WII A RNCLIFFE supported the amendment.
Even in 'London a qualification, and by no means an insig-
nificant cute, was deemed necessary for those who filled the
(Ace of vestrymen. How much more necessary must some
qusalification be for those who were to act as town-council-
lors ? He admitted the difficulty of" fixing upon an amount
of qualification that should operate equally in hll places, but
4,0 n the whole, he was disposed to think that that pro-
posed by the Noble and Learned Lord was the best that
could bi! suggested, He understood that under the Scotch
id be remembered that in Scotland there were no
Cer
t7,1-.7t*
Pratign Act no qualification was required ; but it
poor-rates. He should give his cordial support to the pro-
position of the Nc,lllo and Learned Lord.

1-lupon the •
(!VCI BROUGHAM, to prevent any misunderstanding
Friend,
whether, according to his view, supposing the pro-
point, just wished to ask his Noble and Learned
position to Lc, adopted, if a person were once elected a
eqVlriri,llox; l e could afterwards lose his place as a councillor;
beearoe this might happen—.a' man might be in a house this
year, which made him one of the selected and chosen sixth ;
but nett yet, nnnlo in three or four other persons, who built
up larger and better houses, which would have the effect of
reducing the first below the pale of the exalted sixth. In
that case, the ru au being no longer qUalificd, was to be dis-
played?'
Lcrd LYN DHURST—If a man be once elected a coun-
cillor, he'rvill continue to act as a councillor till the period of
.his services expires.
The Earl of RIPON was disposed to look upon the pro-
position of the Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst) as an