The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-29 00:00:00

to the state of our defences, than. to think of oat
had
In his judgment, it would be far better for us_ to attree
into some of those engagements which in pastitai,
tmpesart of
led to so much embarrassment. Whilst on
it an-
whether there was any trp.th in the rumour that
tended to effect a mutual disarmament of the forces of Eng'
the subject, he would take occasion to ask the noblewrd
s in
land and France. He had 'heard with considerable slr-
p that the right honourable gentleman the member
nor
Buckinghamshire recommended a mutual disartmaname
that the
dif-
ferent things. In France it meant simply this,_
Minister issued an order giving to 100,000 men, who had
Disarmament in England and in France meant
.to y
and those men returned to their villages d served only three or four years of their tianm_e,
.theirocioandiey,
en an- of their services, on a new order being issued,
sudden tient. „
-ed in agricultural pursuits.i But should there be any
()Lain '-en in the space of ten
they would be form g to a
sir, that
rhodays. He could hardly n when
could have consented to reduce our ie.-
Inuding army
men
with all our efforts we could scarcely bring
Q11,06v e_ n e t
into the field, or that they would reduce the newly-formea
navy. If such arrangements, however, were to be carried
out during the recess, he could assure the Government that
the people of this country would not give their consent to
tlieta, and would take the earliest opportunity of manifest-
ing its strong disapprobation of such policy. (Hear).
Mr, MILNES said that if by neutrality was meant
that England was to stand by quietly and see foreign
Powers diepoise of the destinies and interests of continental
States at their will and pleasure, he was sure the people of
this country would never accept the principle in that sense.
There was every reason, moreover, why England should
wish to see Italy satisfactorily settled ; for the present ar-
rangement of that country rested very much upon the trea-
ties of 181.5,- to which we were parties in a very distinct,
g very unfortunate manner. The Emperor
as a most unfortunate event, and it
that cap regarded the annexation of Loin-
was only Carried ont in consequence of the persistence of
the other Powers. So far from the loss of Lombardy being
a source of weakness to Austria, he believed it woule ren-
der her a greater, safer, and happier Power. The future fe-
deration of Italy must depend on the power with which
Sardinia entered it. If she entered it alone, she might be
overridden by other States, but if she were assisted by the
neutral Powers, there was some hope that constitutional
principles might prevail in Italy. He quite agreed that the
right hon. gentlemen the member for Buckinghamshire had
used a moat inapropriato expression in speaking of the
Whig party in Italy, as the Government party included
only the ecclesiastical classeS; While the Liberal party em-
braced the middle and higher classes. The Italian people
were well versed in politics and diplomacy, and so far main-
tained their ;ancient reputation for it, that they made the
fewest political theories of allmodern nations, and they now
awaited the settlement of their country. (Hear.) That
peace of Villafranca might be so guided as to produee a
lasting benefit to Italy, It was not the business of that
house to decide whether her najesty's Government should
enter upon a conference or not. That was a matter of peace
or war, and depended solely upon their own responsibility.
Their only hope was that the Government would combine
the consideration of the question of neutrality with those
necessities which attached to them as one of the first na-
tions of the world.
Mr. WHITESIDE was anxious, in consequence of
allusions which had been made to a matter in which he had
bees personally concerned, to offera few observations to the
house. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a very lumi-
nous speech, had pointed out the necessity which existed
for imposing new hiudens on an overtaxed people, and the
noble lord at the head of the Government and the noble
lord the Foreign Secretary, speaking in succession, had
practically refuted the arguments of the right hon. gentle-
man. The expenditure of the country did not depend on
Dover or Galway contracts, which, to borrow a poetical
phrase which had been lately used, tvere only fleabites, but
on the expense of our armaments, arid their nature and ex-
tent depended our foreign' policy, and it was to consider
the conditions of that policy that theywere invited to-night.
Ile had heard reference made to Greece and Rome, but he
was not inclined to go back to the exemplar states of an-
cient history, or to interfere with the right of the Chancel-
lor of the Exohequer to dealwith the descendants of Ulysses.
He wished to understand that which was the question be-
fore the house—the condition of foreign affairs. His right
hon. friend (Mr. Disraeli) had asked whether the Govern-
ment had transmitted to our ally, as he was called, the Em-
peror of Austria, propositions which contained terms diffe-
rent to those which were embodied in the treaty of Villa-
franca ? Ha did not ask whether the Government them-
selves had of their own motion submitted such a proposition
—but whether they had been made the catspaw of some
other power which was not named, and which had induced
our Government to submit to Austria a paper the contents
of which were not stated, and in which it was not stated
from what neutral power it came. His right hon. friend
was substantially right, and the Government had virtually
assented to the terms contained in the paper.
Lord PALMERSTON—I bsgthe right hon. gentleman's
pardon. I positively stated that we gave no advice and
stated no opinion, and said that we had nothing to do with it.
Mr. WHITESIDE—That was no answer to what he had
stated. He did not say that the Government had given any
opinion, but he spoke of the fact that the Minister of Eng-
land, in forwarding a document to Austria, that power would
naturally infer that it had their assent. (Hear, hear.) His
right hon. friend said that the paper required Austria to give
up Venice and the Venetian territories. It was of course in-
tended that thepaper which reached Austria should be known
to the Emperor of the French, who would be able to say that
from that Austria might see what her allieswoulddo for her,
and that she would find in the victorious conqueror in seve-
ral battles a more merciful diplomatist than her allies. He
believed the Emperor of Austria acted upon that paper, and
he repeated that the English Minister had been made a cats-
paw of by some power in an important matter which led to
the peace of Villafranca. His right hon. friend had said that
the blunder of 1848 had been repeated, and the noble vis-
count, in that jesting manner in which he treated serious
subjects, had answered him (Mr. Whiteside), as he was the
person who had originally made the statement, and saidthe
charge could no longer be sustained. He ventured to think
that the noble viscount would not again repeat what he had
said to-night. The noble viscount from the beginning, that
is for the last ten years, had pursued one consistent policy,
and that was to extirpate the power of Austria from Italy.
That was the principle always mainfadnea byl3.lm, although
the noble lord within the last few days had said that " no
one he ever heard of meant to deprive Austria of her terri-
tories in Lombardy or Venice, which had been awarded to
her by the treaty of 181.5." The noble lord spoke thus at
Tiverton, and he (Mr. Whiteside) had had the pleasure of
purchasing the revised edition of the noble lord's address at
a railway station. The hon. gentleman who had just sat
down had truly said that which no one knew better than
the noble lord, that in 1815 Austria did' not desire to have
Lombardy, but the great Powers obliged her to take it, in
order that the French might be driven out of Italy. Austria
by a solemn treaty obtained Lombardy, and she was our
ancient ally. He admitted that the Austrianrule in Italy
was what M. d'Azeglio called the governMent of the
stranger, Many of the minor states of Italy wore inchned to
join themselves to Austria on account of the mode in which
justice was administered between man and man in her
dominions, which was not the ease in many of these states.
But her government was that of the stranger, and it was,
therefore, not popular. In 1848 disturbances broke out. He
admitted that at that time Austria was in trouble, He
would take as his authorities, one statesman, one historian,
and one emperor; the statesman was the right hon. gentle-
man the member for Carlisle ; the historiani Sir Archibald
Alison; and the emperor was the limperer of the French.
They all saw the policy of the noble viscount ; and it ap-
peared that the noble lord must have forgotten what he
wrote and did. Who was our ambassador at Vienna in 1848?
Lord Ponsonby ; and he supposed the veracity of that noble
lord would not be denied. What was the condition of
France ? She had been through one of those usual revolu-
tions which were the blessings of that country. lie believed
that Cavaignac was then up, and was occupied in fighting
for 'the existence of society against republicanism and so-
cialism, What was the 'condition of Austria ? She was
looking to the noble viscount, and believing that in him she
had a faithful friend. What was the condition of Sardinia ?
Much what it was now—looking out for what she could
get—(laughter)—and looking for a pretext on which she
could seize her neighbour's property. Lombardy, he ad-
mitted, had thrown off the yoke of Austria, and had what
was called in the language of revolutions a provisional
government. In 1848 that provisional government wrote
to the noble lord asking what they were to do with regard
to Austria, and he having commuhicated with Lord Pon-
sonby that noble lord stated to him the substance
of a conversation which he had with an important
personage at Vienna, in which he said : "The fate
of Italy is in the hands of England ; you are at pre-
sent the -sole power who has influence there ; it is the
greater because it is single. The easy overthrow of Louis
Philippe, the establishment of a republic in France, have
produced a real panic ; but while admitting your
power, which you certainly have no right to complain
of our doing, allow me at the same time to assign to you
the responsibility of events, at least as regards ourselves."
Lord Ponsonby referred the noble lord to what had led to
the outbreak. He said, " What the Piedmontese have
done is an intervention in the Austrian territories, for the
purpose of giving support to rebels against the Austrian
legal authority. It is in contradiction to the recognised
principle of non-intervention, for there is no act even as-
serted bythe Piedmontese to have been done bythe Austrians
injurious to any Piedmontese interests, or dangerous to the
Sardinian King's rights,. or territories. Vague reports
circulated by the Sardinians themselves, of designs enter-
tained by the Austrians to attack Piedmont, which reports
have proved to be unfounded, are not justifications for real
attacks upon a neighbour." That was the opinion of Lord
Ponsonby. It was true that Baron Hummelauer had
visited this country, but before he did so the noble lord had
received all necessary information from Lord Ponsonby.
He (Mr. Whiteside) did not know if the royal word of the
ruler of Austria was to be believed, but he found that Lord
Ponsonby, in the most distinct manner, informed the noble
lord as follows :—" That the Archduke John had said that
the Lombards might have the absolute disposal of their fate
—they might have Charles Albert for their King and their
own form of Government." Mark the line of the Adige,
not the line of the Mincio. Lord Ponsonby said further :
—"
It was necessary to protect Trieste, and the Arch-
duke authorised him to state this, and he was of
opinion that the Archduke was right in saying that
unless the line of the Adige was preserved it would lead
to a contest in Italy. Lombardy, by the retreat of the
Austrians, was able to complete the course taken by the
Modenese. As to the proposition withregard to Venice, there
was no strong feeling against the proposed arrangement."
The next day Lord Ponsonby wrote a letter to the noble
lord, having forgotten to state what had been stated with
regard to Venice, and he said "I neglected to say that, sup-
posing Venice was to continue under the rule of Austria,
she would be governed under a free constilktion." What
followed ? The noble lord, in the multiplicity of his occu-
patlona, forgot that all this had been described by the his-
torian. Tho noble lord said that what Baron Hummelauer
offered was, that Lombardy should remain under an Aus-
trian archduke. After what he had read was such a pro-
position surprising? Baron Hummelauer arrived, and en •
tered into communication with the noble lord, and having
stated his proposition in conversation, no doubt the noble
lord desired him to put the proposition in writing, which
was to be submitted to the noble lord, and by the noble lord
to be submitted to the cabinet of which he was a distin-
guished member. He accordingly did so, and he stated
shortly what ho wished ; and what the noble lord now said
with reference, to the archduke was a mistake, for what was
said was this. The document was dated the 24th of May,
and it stated that Lombardy was to be independent, was to
be allowed to choose her own government, to be united with
Piedmont if she liked. He (Mr, Whiteside) admitted that,
tss regarded Venice, he made the same proposition as was
stated by Lord Ponsonby ; that its connexion with Trieste
made it impossible that it should be made independent, kit
OA it should have afree constitution, under the govern-
mentrk h of
.lYfra y,p
of an 4,tphdUke—ShoUid halte national firisey, 'iind a
repeneentative at Vienne
from the pOll
he n
§t:, .epref4
to the ad er# Itt,A ultf
:lune
erests.
The noble Tiorij,t
to consider the matter. The date of was im-
portant in rsference to the provisicinal government at Milan.
On the 3d 3-iine the noble lord wrote e deepatc ,h which was
very creditable to 'hini; in Rhioh e stated that according
to the treaty of 1815 he had not a word to say with regard
to the offer as to Lombardy, which was quite satisfactory,

and ix reference to that be•wus ready to mediate, but, as
regarded Venice, which was in possession of those who
demurred to shake off the
.power of Austria, it would not
be possible to get them to agree to the terms proposed, and
unless the game terms were given as regarded Venice as
were granted to Lombardy he would not mediate. To this
the Austrian plenipotentiary replied that he would not do
so, he had no authority to that extent. The noble lord
perverted what was said by Baron Hummelauer, and sup-
posed him to say he had no authority to treat as regarded
Lombardy, svhereas it was only as regarded the latter part
of the proposition that he stated that he had no authority.
He (Mr. Whiteside) admitted that the noble lord was right
when he said that the provisional government at Milan
would refuse to accept that proposition. The date of the
letter of the noble lord was the 3d of June, and the refusal
of the provisional government at Milan was on the 18th.
He (Mr. Whiteside) believed that the noble lord communi-
cated to that government or their agent in this country the
refusal of England to accept the terms proposed, and he
.s.sitted that Whell Po Austrian Government sent a simi-
I '::"-isronosition to tile pr.r.t!ier_ltj. kOifei-iiineht at Milan, it
r - - 8 "ofria, was willino to Rive Up
met with the same ma... • -- ,•
Lombardy, but you would not have it, and Wee oYerekSyk
free constitution to Venice, but you would not ha
subject. Mr. Abercromby was then our Minister at S -
dinia, and the noble lord acquainted him with all that he
There was a very curious paper in connection with this
tharii
it.
(Mr. Whiteside) had stated. On the 10th of July, before
the battle was fought which changed the whole aspect of
the contest, Mr. Abercromby wrote to the noble viscount,
stating that it had just been confidentially communicated
to him that the King of Sardinia would accept propositions
which gave the Adige for the eastern frontier of his king-
dom, and which recognised the annexation of Lombardy,
Parma, and Modena to it. Charles Albert's language was,
that "should the Austrian Government make direct to him
any propositions for peace based on such a territorial ar-
rangement as above described, or should they be offered
him by her Majesty's Government as mediator, he would
not hesitate to accept them." The King of Sardinia, then,
desired these views of his to be confidentiallycommunieated
to her Majesty's Gqvemment, and it was added that " a
peace concluded upon these terms, giving nothing but
Lombardy and the line of the Adige, would, considering
the relative powers of Austria and Sardinia, be both
honourable and glorious for Sardinia." That would have
been a peace asking nothing with regard to Venice. Sar-
dinia would have been satisfied with Lombardy, and Lom-
bardy was what Austria was willing to give, but the noble
viscount would not mediate on the terms proposed. On the
28th of July the noble viscount wrote to Mr. Abercromby,
instructing him to semi OA attache to the eitnip, where
King Charles Albert then was, to ascertain how things
were going on. He wanted, in fact, to be informed whether
Sardinia had a chance of beating Austria, and, if so, he
would have i4een. ready to fell en our old ally in the moment
of her distress, and extort from her what she had been
willing to give. (Hear, hear.) At a later period there was
a conversation between fllp noble viscount and Count Revel,
the Sardinian Minister, in which said the noble viscount,
"I told Count Bevel that her Majesty's Minister at Turin
had informed me that he had at one time reason to believe
that the Sardinian Government would have been disposed to
negotiate on the basis
events it would not he satisfied with less than the line of
of the Adige, but from subsequent
the Piave," which would have included Venice, The noble
Viscount added, hk his own account of this interview, given
in a letter to Lord Ponsmthy at Vienna, that he (Le-,
e• • • -"
in a good position, e11911,1d the war continue with .rdinia was
Palmeraton) then expressed his opinion thata
suc-
cess, the basis of the settlement should be the line of the
Piave. When the noble- viscount told Lord Ponsonby of
this, Lord Ponsonby replied, " You seek the unattainable,
and the attainable you will not accept." (Hear, hear.)
Lord Ponsonby at Vienna knew that those terms, involv-
ing the cession of Venice, would never be agreed to. Two
or three days after the battle of Custom was fought, which
changed the whole character of the campaign. The noble
viscount then wrote to Lord Ponsonby to say that he was
now willing to take the terms which Austria had offered
before ; but Lord Ponsonby replied, "My Lord, the Aus-
trian army has signed a round robin against giving up even
Lombardy." Thus the noble viscount, having at one time,
as he was told by Count Ficquelmont, by Lord Ponsonby,
and by Baron Hummelauer, an opportunity of liberating
the whole of Italy, but reserving Venice to Austria with
a free constitution, did nothing. It was therefore that
when the Emperor of Austria, a few days ago, had a
document presented to him by the noble lord, by which
he was called upon to give up 1, enice, he was advised
rather to make peace with his generous enemy
who would give him better terms than his pretended
friend. The noble lord had thus repeated pre-
cisely the same policy as he pursued ten years ago. Now he
(Mr. Whiteside) would quote the testimony of the right hon.
gentleman the member for Carlisle. That statesman had
said, " I deeply lament the refusal of the noble lord to accept
that settlement proposed by Austria. That caused the in-
surrection to proceed in Italy, and to break out in Hungary ;
that caused the interposition of Russia in the affairs of
Austria." An eminent historian, Sir Archibald Alison, went
further, and said that the noble viscount's policy led, in the
logical sequence of events, to Russia counting on the sup-
port of Austria, as one despotic power who had done a good
turn to another, and that so Russia was emboldened to make
an inroad on the Turkish empire. He might have remarked
in addition, that Austria not having given Russia the aid
which she expected in the Eastern quarrel, Russia, smart-
ing under that ingratitude, had lately made some agree-
ment, as was believed, with the Emperor of the French
against Austria. The last authority he (Mr. Whiteside)
would quote, was that of an Emperor, who was also an
author. In the celebrated pamphlet, " Napoleon 111. and
Italy," written' as he believed, by the Emperor of the
French himself, and published just before the late war broke
out, reference was made to thecourse pursted by the noble
viscount in 1848. The Emperor of the French, in that
pamphlet, praised the noble viscount's objects, which were
to get rid of the domination of Austria in Italy, and to esta-
blish, not the revolutionary, but the national element there.
After alluding to Lord 14into's mission as having been
carried in that noble lord's ardour somewhat too far, the
imperial author of this pamphlet quoted a despatch of Lord
Palmerson to Lord Ponsonby, on the 9th October, 1848,
in which the noble viscount observed that "it would be
more prudent, and more useful to the Austrian empire, for
Austria to set the Italian population free from a yoke which
- • .1,1 not be rnftirttained except by a great display of force
and at considerable cost," and the noble viscount added.
that otherwise he foresaw that " foreign aid would be im:
plored and granted." Those were the very words of the noble
viscount, and the Emperor of the French had now brought
in that. foreign aid, as he had carried into execution every-
thing else set forth in his pamphlet before the war, But
the Emperor observed in his pamphlet, speaking of the
events of 1848, that ‘‘Thsre was a moment for the future of
These proposals were
Italian nationality. Austria proposed the independence of
onerdon suz; etrbaiey ntwyev. e
only
known
in
vranoe.
Lombardy and a separate government for Venetic, bn the
csoarleiliecdondairiti
It was then believed in Engb,nd that Italy might obtain
better terms, and the English Cabinet did not use their
great and legitimate authority to obtain these terms." New
direct oo fL
h
he (mr. Whiteside) would give the noble viscount credit
for the singleness of purpose with which he had always
pursued his object of getting ritj of the Austrian domina-
tion in Italy, The Roble Ndsqount had ahown his sincere
desirko ecoompliah that favourite object of his by attack-
ing dukes, kings, emperors, and popes, c (A laugh,) The
house had lward him that night pouring out ridicule on the
unfortunate Pope, and the noble lord the member for the
City of London did the same. Now, the Papal Government
was not a good goyornment, mud he (Mr. Whiteside) did not
admire it himself, But what would the city of Rome be
without the popes ? Why, Rome without them would have
been a mass of rublials ; for he believed the popes had re-
paired the aqueducts and restored some of the monuments
of ancient Rome. If the Pope's temporal authority were to
be taken away, what substitute would be provided ? What
was to be done now with the peaoewe had before us? After
listening to both the noble lords, he thought we had a curi-
ous prospect before us if they' would meddle with it, The
noble lord the member for the 'City of London said, " The
first part of the treaty of peace I approve of." Well, he
(Mr, Whiteside) was glad, so far, that the noble lord was
willing Lombardy should share the fortunes of Sardinia.
All the members of that house, he was sure, were equally,
willing that it should be so. (Cheers.) They would all re-
joice to see a powerful free state erected in the north of
Italy, though they could not approve of the means by which
that object had been attained. But the noble lord, admitting
that, said the rest of the articles of the treaty were full of
difficulties or impossibilities. So here was an entire treaty of
peace, signed between two Powers who had fought a bloody
fight, and the noble lord was determined not to allow them to
mak& that peace ; for if his principles were to be carried out,
thiTtreaty could not be brought to a conclusion. The noble
lord said be would take the part which he approved of, and
agree to go into a conference if they would alter the part
which he disapproved of. If they would not agree to do
so, then he (Mr. Whiteside) presumed the war of indepen-
dence would recommence, so that if we set aside this ti eaty
we could not tell what would be the result. Ho would be a
most unwise minister who would go into a congress to dis-
cuss a treaty which he had already so unequivocally con.
demned. The noble viscount had said it was impossible to
, form ~federal union of the States of Italy. If that were
the case, then the whole treaty was impossible, and could
not be carried out. Then we ought not to meddle with it,
and England ought not to be complicated in arrangements
which it was alleged would prove no better than a hollow
truce, when we had not thought fit to interfere with the
late sanguinary war. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord asked
how it was possible that the Italian states could ever agree.
He said that the Pope would, of course, be for catholicity,
and Sardinia for religious toleration ; and so nothing would
come of the proposed confeder'ation. But the noble lord's
argument was founded in mistake. Lord Bacon stated
even in his time 'that the Swiss confederation was built
upon utility—that was to say, they were held together by
the necessity of mutual defence. (Hear, hear.) The Ro-
man Catholic cantons were very strict in favour of their re-
ligion, and the Protestant not less strict in favour of theirs,
They had often had disputes, and they had even come in con-
flict ; but they had nevertheless maintained their oonfeclera.
tion in a manner that made them respected even in the
midst of greater Powers. (Hear, hear,) The noble vis-
count's argument was, therefore, false ; but, in truth, his
whole speech was nothing but a ridicule of the whole plan.
It was said that Lord Malmesbury had been a party to ne-
gotiations, but those negotiations were of a very digerens
character. He had been a party„to them from the first, and
when a proposition was made that there should be a congress
in order to prevent the shedding of blood, Lord Malmesbury
at once assented to it, but at the same time he stated with
the utmost distinctness what should be the propositions, slth-
mitted to that congress The noble lord might has e better
alluded to the protocols of Paris in 1856, He did not think
the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself would be very
hopeful of a congress, judging from the experience they had
had of the protocols of Paris. He (Mr. Whiteside) had once
had the good fortune to suggest to the right hon. gentleman
a topic on which he had addressed the hoesawith his usual
eloquence and power, proving that the protocols trenched on
topics with n hich they had no right. The right hon. gen-
tleraan clearly proved that the manner in which Lord Cja,
rend= had dealt with Belgium and the liberty of its press
was quite unjustifiable. (Cheers.) Lord Clarendon made a
proposition that no power should go to war without first
Appealing to tbse friendly mediation of another power; but
the very party which had brought on the late war had duos
so against the remonstrance of England, the principal party
to the Congross of Paris. (Hear.) The proposed congress,
therefore, did not give them much encouragement for the
future. (Hear.) It would be wise and politic if this country
which had no hand in making war, should also decline any
share in making peace. She would then be free to take any
course which her own dignity or interests might dictate;
and she would also escape from those comnlicetions which
might hereafter ensue. (Cheers,) •
Mr. DRUMMONTI thought that only scrimp jus:teo
be,„ done to ardii y the present debate, which he
thought had not gone to the root of 02,e matter. He wished,
therefore, to V- f
4,
~ CS• ,41 DIY facts to enable the house to
arl+4 at 4,501 kTiMI/11911, It was well known that Sar-
"MT Lan I°7l' coun • ry t hathad attained to censtitits
sonal government withoht revolution and without oarnage•
(Hear.) He thought that such a country deserVed' some'
consideration in a house which prOfesSed to hasie some ad;
miration for .7 constitntimiar GovernMent, and Which knew
something of the dangers'that had followed the o.ttenn4 tO,
attain it in France Hungary etbg . celigtrit
„ T