The Sun.
London, England, 1832-02-18 00:00:00

LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 183'2.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 17.

Lord KENYON moved that the amendments made
in the Committee on the Agricultural Labourers' Bill be
printed.—Ordered.
Lord FOLEY presented a petition from Hereford
against the importation of foreign gloves.
After the order of the day for the second reading of the
Cholera Prevention

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose, and moved that
the Bill be read a second time. In doing so,
the Noble Marquis said that it had been the inten-
tion of his Majesty's Government to prevent the
spreading of alarm upon this subject,which was the reason
this Bill was not before introduced. The Bill was then lead
a second time. The Noble Marquis then moved the suspez_
sion of the Standing Orders so far as regarded this Bill.
The House then went into Committee, when

The Bishop of LONDON had to move, as an amends
ment, that the words, "Whereas, it has pleased
Providence to afflict this c.aintry with a disease," &c.,
should be inserted in the preamble of the Bill. The in-
,:ertion of these words would render the Bill uniform with
another which would probably soon come before the
House ; and, although he did not think it necessary, in
all public proceedings, to make reference to the controul-
ing power of Divire Providence, yet there did .occasionally
occur circumstances in which it was the duty of a Chris-
tian Legislature to acknowledge that Power.—(Hear.)
There had been several occasions when that reference was
made in Acts of Parliament. He would take that oppor-
tunity of alluding to a topic to which the Noble Marquis
had referred—the inconvenience of creating unnecessary
alarm. Being officially connected with the city of Lon-
don, he necessarily knew something of the measures adopted
there with a view to the prevention of the spasmodic
cholera. He thought, that although it appeared that all
praise was due to the Board of Health—he meant not the
Central Board of Health, appointed by the Government,
but a Board of Health which had been formed in
the city, for the superintendence only of London and
the neighbourhood—although he said great praise
was due to that Board for its exertions, it appeared to him
to have been in some respects too active in spreading
alarm, and that it had lately taken measures not only un-
called for but likely to be attended with injurious results.
He mentioned the matter in that place, as, by doing so,
he thought be used the most probable means of causing his
cuinions to reach the gentlemen of the Board. Those
gentlemen, amongst the other measures which they had
thought adviseable to adopt for preventing the spread of
the disease, had already shut up the national schools in
several parts of the district under their care, and had
alto aly gone so far as to appropriate those buildings for
hospitals. He would take the liberty of suggesting that
there were within the city of London places which might
more fitly be applied to that purpose than the school-houses
of the poor. He alluded to buildings which were spa-
cious, commodious, and well ventilated, and, being devoted
only to periodical festivities, could, without any serious
inconvenience, be given up for a time to the humane
objects which the London Board of Health was so zealous
to promote. He thought that the halls of the several
Liveries of London would well answer the purpose.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) The Right Rev. Prelate concluded
by moving the insertion of the words " Whereas, it has
pleased Almighty God to afflict this country with the
disease," &c.
Atter a few words from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE,
it was agreed to.
The LORD ADVOCATE and others, from the Commons,
brought up the Cholera Prevention Bill, which was read
a first time.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE gave notice, that to-
morrow he would move the suspension of the Standing
Orders relative to this Bill.
TITHES IN IRELAND.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH was understood to say, that
in the report of the Irish Tithe Committee it was sug-
gested that Government should be empowered to levy,
through the agency of the Attorney-General, under a law
to be hereafter passed for the purpose, the amount of
tithes illegally withheld in the year 1830. But as it
was evident that the Attorney-General could only act
on the instructions of the Government, he wished to ask
whether the expences of the proceedings to be taken by
that offie,r, under the direction of his Majesty's Ministers
for the recovery of tithes, should be defrayed by the Go-
vernment, or deducted from the gross amount? In another
clause it was recommended that the Government should
have power to levy the tithes due for 1831, and that ex-
traordinary powers should be given them for that purpose.
Now he wished to know, as that power was to be given,
without prejudice to the claims of the clergy for the ar-
rears due on preceding years, was it intend•:d that the
clergy should proceed for those previous arrears, whilst
the Government was proceeding in the mean time, by
virtue of extraordinary powers, for the tithes of 1831 ?
Now, that would give rise to an anomaly, which it was
the professed object of the Noble Lords who constituted
the Committee to remove—that is, that two parties should
be applyieg at the same time to the one occupier for the
payment of tithes. There would he also this anomaly, that
whilst the tithes, for the collection of which extraordi-
nary powers were given, were those of 1831, the tithes
of which the payment had been illegally resisted were
those of 1830.—(He.ir.) But the Noble Marquis must
see that the authority of the laws would not he sustained,
unless power were given to enforce the payment of those
tithes which were first illegally res,sted—(Hear, hear)—
and unless that power were extended over the whole period
during which the resistance was continued. As it did not
appear that the Committee had fully considered and ma.
tured their plan, it might ❑ot he too late to call the atten-
tion of the Noble Marquis to the two points to which his
questions referred.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to say,
that the expenses of recovetiog the arrears should be psid
hy the clergy, so far as they did not exceed the expenses
which would have been incurred in the recovering of those
arrears by the ordinary processes; and that it was not pro
posed to give extraordinary powers for the levying of any
arrears except of those tithes of which the payment had
been illegally withheld.
Lord ELLENBOBOUGH agreed with the Noble Mar-
quis, that it would not be advisable to give extraordinary
powers either to the title-owner or the Government for
the recovery of all arrears without distinction. But still
he was of opinion that such powers should apply to all
arrears incurred during the period in which the illegal
resistance was continued.

The Marquis of LA NSDOWNE was not beard in bia
reply.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH hoped that the decision of
the Noble Marquis was not irrevocable, and that Ministers
would give the subject a fuller consideration. His only
object in bringing these matters under the consideration of
the Noble Marquis was that the Noble Lords opposite
might themselves have an opportunity of making the ne-
cessary alterations in the Bill now on the table.
Lord PLUNKETT was of opinion that the extraordinary
powers ought not to extend further than for the recovery
of the tithes which had been illegally withheld in the last
year.
The E mrl of WICKLOW said that the answers given to
the questions put by the Noble Baron near him would not
tend by any means to satisfy the Irish clergy, or to do
away with the alarm excited by the resolutions avowed by
Ministers. The Noble Marquis must know that it would
be a considerable time before a Bill founded on the report
could come into their Lordships' House, as it must ori-
ginate, be believed, in the other House of Parliament.--
Their Lordships must be aware that, in the mean time,
the report would be circulated throughout the country,
and would bring disappointment and alarm to the friends
of the Irish Church Establishment. The report recom-
mended powers to be given to enforce payment only of
the tithes of 1831 ; but those tithes were not payable in
that year, and therefore time Bill could give no immediate
relief, and the clergy would look upon the report as an
abandonment of their property up to 1831. It was not
yet the time when the clergy in most parishes were accus-
tomed to apply for the tithes of that year.--(Hear, hear.)
But the payments that ought to be enforced were those
for 1830, which were last year illegally resisted.
(Hear, hear.) In truth, the system of resistance had
existed inure than two years, and was confined for the
most part tr one part of the country, as appeared
upon the face of the report. It did appear to him that,
it any thing were wanting to prove the progress of revolu-
tionary principles, it would be proved by this, that such a
report, declaring the subversion of the law of the land by a
daring combination extending over a large portion of the
United Kingdom, should be laid upon their Lordships

able by a Minister of the Crown, without one word of
comment
bead
of h
sor m eijxepsltayn,
sa tGi oonv. e r
nltinoewn t tche ou
dNorebel
oe n
cLi ol
er d t the
himself
to the abandonment of the law under such circumstances,
and how he could reconcile his own declarations in that
House some evenings ago with those since made elsewhere,
be (Lord Wicklow) did not understand. In other places
it had been said that although it was the determination of
Ministers to uphold the laws of the land, yet they would
not do so without at the same time removing the grievances
existing. In that declaration it was obviously implied,
that the law of the land which had existed since the
annexation of Ireland to the English Crown was a
(arievance.—(Hear, hear.) lie denied that the law which
his Majesty's Ministers proposed to submit was a grievance.
—(Hear, hear.) He denied that tithes were a grievance.
They were a wise, equitable, anti useful institution. But
the grievance which existed in Ireland was wholly attri-
butable to the Ministers themselves.—(Hear.) Had they
given the people to understand in the beginning that they
were friends of the law and of the Church Establishment
in Ireland, there would not exist any reason for the violent
revolution which they were now proposing to effect in the
laws of the country.—(Hear.)
Earl GREY should have thought, that if ever there
were an occasion for the ebullition of party spleen and
violence, which he had that evening witnessed—(Hear)—
,it certainly was not on an occasion when his ?Ilejetty's
Government were about to bring forward a measure to
relieve the existing distresses of the Irish clergy, and to
protect their riglits.—( Hear.) He should not have thought
that the time when such a measure was proposed should
give occasion to such an attack upon the Members of the
Government from those, above all others, who had most at
heart the security of the Church and the welfare of the
Government--heshould not have said who had those objects
most at heart, for no man had them more at heart than he
himself—but who best could speak the sentiments of the
Irish clergy.—(Hear.) He trusted, however, that the
Noble Earl's endeavour to raise a clamour against the
measures recommended in the report of their Lordships'
Committee—whatever might be the Noble Earl's motive—
would not be successful.—(Hear.) He hoped that, not-
withstanding the attempt to misrepresent the conduct of
his Majesty's Ministers, their exertions would not be miss
interpreted or misunderstood. lie trusted that it would
be seen that they proceeded in a determination to support
the authority of the laws. —(Hear.) He trusted it would
be sees, when the evidence which had been taken before
the Committee should have been laid upon the table, and
have been examined, that the charge which the Noble Earl
brought against them, was unfounded, and that no effort
h been wanting on their part to enforce the execution of
the laws by every means in their power, and that they had
gone even beyond what, by the strict letter of the law,
might be required of them—(Heat)—wherever the clergy
called for their assistance. He would appeal to the House
and to the country whether he had ever been wanting in
his exertions when the authority of the law was resisted ?
—( Hear, hear, hear.) Notwithstanding the imputations
cast upon the Government by the Noble Earl opposite, it
was the determination of the King's Ministers to enforce
the authority of the laws on all occasions where it should
be attempted to resist them. What lie had said upon a late
occasion had been made the ground of an accusation against
him by a misrepresentation on the part of those who wished
again to renew all the evils of party strife in Ireland, and
who had nothing at heart but the triumph of party, by
whatever mischiefs to the country that triumph might be
attended.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was to remove the ef-
fects of that misrepresentation he had made the declaration
to which the Noble Earl referred. Although he (lid say
that it was the determination of the Government to uphold
the authority of the laws, he stated at the same time that
no man was more convinced than he was of the absolute
necessity of removing the grievances connected with the
existing system of tithes, of which Ireland so loudly corn-
plains.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, in alluding to
the report, took occasion to cast imputations upon his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. Could that Noble Earl believe that they
were persons likely to shake the foundations of the laws,
and to subvert the institutions of the country 2—(Elear.)
The Noble Lord reproached them with proposing the ex-
tinction of tithes, and accused them of a design to over-
throw the laws, and with having denounced the law as a
grievance. If the Noble Lord would look to the evidence
which had been produced before the Committee, as he ought
to do, if lie had no knowledge himself of what was doing
in Ireland, lie would be convinced that—although it could
not be admitted, nor would he (Earl Grey) ever admit, that
the law of tithe was a grievance—the manner in which
the law was executed was a grievance.—(llear, hear.)
From that evidence the Noble Earl would see that there
could not be safety to the Church or tranquillity to Ireland
until an entire change should have been effected in the
mode of executing that law. When the words " extinc-
tion of tithes" were used, the meaning intended to be con-
veyed by them was a commutation of tithes to some other
provision,
which might give at the same time more satis-
faction and greater security to the clergy, and would pre-
vent a collision between them and the occupiers of the
land.—(Hear.) To effect those objects, and, in doing so,
to promote the peace of Ireland, was the purpose of his
Majesty's Ministers when they proposed to the Committee
the measures alluded to in the report. The proposition
was submitted to the Committee with the most anxious
care, and with a desire to do justice to all parties, to pre-
serve the rights of the Church, and to establish the peace
of Ireland. With respect to the matters to which the
Noble Baron opposite (Lord Ellenborough) had drawn the
attention of their Lordship, he could only assure the
Noble Barns that those things should be fully considered
when the Bill came before the House, and when the
House was in possession of the evidence necessary to enable
it to decide upon them. His Majesty's Ministers were un-
doubtedly indebted to the Noble Baron for having di-
rected their attention to matters which he seemed to
think could occur to none but to his superior under-
standing. But lie (Lord Grey) would assure the No le
Lord that those matters had not been overlooked, and that
the Bid would be prepared with great care. His Majesty's
Ministers were as desirous as the Noble Lord of main •
taining the interests of the Church ; and from the know-
ledge which their situations placed within their reach,
they were not less acquainted with what those interests
required than the Noble Baron himself. They thought that
they were doing that in obtaining the extraordinary
powers for which they proposed to apply ; and in what way
the exercise of those powers was to lie limited, remained
matter for the consideration of the House when the Bill
should have been slibinitted to their Lordships. But at
the same time that the Government was desirous of giving
the clergy immediate relief, it was not intended to collect
any tithes, except those which had been illegally withheld.
In doing that the Government was maintaining the au-
thority of the law, and giving the clergy an opportunity of
recovering, under the law, the other tithes which were
previously due. lie objected to that irregular discussion
of a measure which was not• yet before the House, and
especially when that discussion was introduced in such a
spirit—(Hear)—by a Noble Lord representing as a revo-
lutionary measure a Bill which would have no other ob-
jects than the maintenance of the law, the protection of
the Church, and the preservation of tranquillity.—(Hear.)
si lieai
o:settreoul
yos
restore
sod:
hot trehheei aapt
te)
alt
Let their Lordships look to the revolutionists of which the
Committee was composed. —(Cheers.) Were their Lord-
ships to believe that those Noble persons were the enemies
of the clergy, desirous to shake the foundations of the land,
and to subvert every thing essential to good government ?
establish ei : la:n.noecuwel dd
abbr. ye.
the Noble Earl (Wicklow), but would come dispas-
ua:inhk(ell tnio;:itl
submitted to their Lordships, with a view to maintain the
rangement, by which the clergy would he placed not only
in greater security as respected their income, but in cir-
cumstances not exposing them to a collision with the oc-
cupiershear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW had cast no imputations upon
the Noble Lords opposite. He believed there never was a
set of men who undertook such arduous duties with more
zealous dispositions to discharge thew for the good of the
country. The Noble Earl (Grey) said he had always been
a friend to the Church. Now he (Lord Wicklow) was
not sufficiently acquainted with the history of that Holies,
or with the political life of the Noble Earl, or with his
conduct when in opposition, to give the Noble Earl's state-
ment the support of his humble testimony. But then it
was to be considered, the Noble Earl, though the head
of the Government, was not the whole Government; that
there were other persons in the Cabinet ; and that he
(Lord Wicklow) had a right to look to the conduct of
persons when he spoke of the measures of Govtrn
itabeouset. He would remind the Noble Lord that, in 1824,
a gentleman in the other House of Parliament, vho was
(o,
considerationloertters: ea,n0,%1%:.

not much attached to the Church nor (he might say, per-
haps') to any other of the establishments of the country,
made a motion of a revolutionary tendency, being for a
Committee to inquire whether the clergy 00. ii Established
Church in Ireland were not too numerous' and too highly
paid. The motion was, of course, negatived, and in the
minority was found the Noble Lord no,i-elflhe Woolsack,
and other Members of the- present Cabinet. Was it
wonderful, then, that people looked at the acts of a Mi-
nistry so constituted, with souse degree of apprehension,
and especially when they heard the Noble Earl, in the
spirit of prophecy, warn the Bench of Bishops to put their
houses in order.—(Cheers.) Was it to- be wondered, that
under such circumstances, people fcia4ivitli some anxiety
for a declaration on the part of Ministers of an intention
to maintain the rights of the Church. It was their duty
to have made such a declaration, an I their not doing so,
had spread alarm, which they now, by a measure which
he would still call a revolution, were endeavouring to re-
move.—(Cheers.) The Noble Earl seemed to attribute
t ) him (Lord Wicklow) some part in the present proceed-
ings in Ireland. He supposed the Noble Lord to allude
to the Protestant meetings which had lately taken place in
that country. He was not a member of any of those so-
cieties, nor had he attended their meetings. The Noble
Lord seemed to attribute to the Noblemen of high rank
and influence who attended those meetings die vreading i
of the report that the Government entertain iews
hostile to the Church. Of that he knew nothit s it
16
this he would say, that no man regretted morn an he
did the necessity to the revival of those societies -in Ire-
land. But they had not been revived without g6rit.4
cause. He thought that their re-organization was"'
mainly owing to the conduct of the Government itself.—
( Hear, hear.) He believed that so loog as the people
of that country thought that they had a watchful
Government guarding over their interests, and that so-
cieties which were agitating Ireland were but evils inci-
dental to the Constitution, so long the loyal portion of the
people remained tranquil.—(Hear, hear.) But when he
saw the Government lending itself to those associations—
( Hear)—and giving their support and confitlence,ooh4
who were their enemies, and the decided enemies
country—when they saw men of that description—:
(Cheers)—made the objects of the favour and patronage
of the Government—when the head of the Government
stood up in that House, and said that the leader of those
associations was fitted, by his talents and learning, for any
office tinder any Government, setting no value upon bites,
grity or loyalty (as the Noble Lord (Wicklow) was under-.
stood to sav), as if these were no requisites for office—
then the Protestants of Ireland thought it was time for
them to look to the security of their rights and property—
(Cheers.) He would never be presented from doing his ,
duty as a Peer of that House, and expressing his opinions '
freely, by sneers and taunts, even when they came from
the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government,
who, although he had complained of them, dealt as much
In them as any Member of their Lordships' House.
The LORD CHANCELLOR would not complain that
the allusion of the Noble Earl to him was very inconve-
nient and irregular. It was tl so much the Government
as the report of the Committee that was the object of tlsf
Noble Earl's attack. The words " extinction of tithes':
were the words of the report.—(hear, heat'.) If those
words had not been in the report of your Committee,
" trust me," said the Noble and Learned Lord, " your
Lordships never would have heard the attack." But even
so, the words being in the report, the attack was really
made upon the Committee, and not upon the Government.
But the words were so qualified that it was impossible to
suppose that " extinction" was used in the odious sense,
or that it was meant to signify the destruction of Church
property, It was plainly the meaning of the Committee
that tithes should be extinguished by a commutation to
some other mode of payment, which should be attended
with less inconvenience to all parties, and with more secu-
rity to the Church. He (the Lord Chancellor) had had ,
no connection with the Committee, but then it seemed
that, in the other House of Parliament, he had voted with
some other gentlemen, to whom he did not believe the
words used by the Noble Earl (Wicklow) were aptly ap-
plied.—(Hear.) He did not believe that those gentle-
men were enemies of the Church, or that the object was
to pull down the Church, and not only the Church, but
all the other institutions of the country.
Lord WICKLOW made some explanation, which was
not heard in the gallery.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was glad that he had
misunderstood the Noble Earl. Indeed I.e should be very
glad to hear that the Noble Earl meant to say something
the very contrary to what he had understood him to say
—(A laugh)—but in his ears, the words of the Noble
Lord sounded very like these—(A laugh)—" that the gen-
tleman who proposed the motion ar is no friend to the
Church, nor to other institutions of the country; and that
the object of the motion was revolutionary." Now he did
not know at that moment what might have been the pre-
cise nature of a motion made so long ago ; but this he
knew, that although he believed that he voted for the
motion, whatever it was, because the Noble Earl said so,
yet sure he was that it could have no such object as the
Noble Lord supposed. He never could have voted for any
motion of which the object was to destroy the property of
1 the Church, or to impair the security of the other institu-
tions of the country.—(Hear.) He would undertake to
assure the Noble Lord, that the resolution which he on
that occasion voted for, whatever it might have been, had
no such tendency.—(Hear.) But when he looked to
the state of Ireland, end of the Church of Ireland, and the
difficulties which obstructed the establishment of peace and
good government in that country, and when he saw some
friends of the Church endeavouring to engross to them-
selves all credit for good intentions to its cause, he must
say that one observation occurred to his wind, which was
that the friends of the peace of Ireland, and of good go•
vernment in Ireland, and of the Established Church in
Ireland, hail good reason to pr ty that they- might have
any other friends rather than those.—(Cheers.)
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM thought that the report
should have been more complete than it now was before it
was laid on their Lordships' table. It stated great evils,
but it laid down no principles by which those evils could
be put an end to. In this state the report would go forth
to the world, and would not tend to allay those party feel-
ings which existed in Ireland. The Noble Earl cons- i
plained of the subject exciting party feelings, but he hoped
that to that degree of party feelings which was necessary
to preserve the Established Church it would be exposed.
lie had no party feelings on the subject, and the Noble
Earl would pardon him that he could not look to the mea-
sure as a source of security and tranquillity ; he could not
look at it as calculated to realise the hopes and expecta-
tions excited ; and looking back at the measures adopted
in Ireland—looking at the state of that country—looking
at the vacillation of the Government of Ireland, taking up
and laying down measures as that great agitator of Ireland
dictated, who had acknowledged himself guilty of breaking
the law—looking at the Government afterwards courting
his hollow assistance to secure the country against agi-
tation--looking at these things, could he expect from the
measures now proposed tranquillity for Ireland and security
for the Protestant Church ? lie should not have said so
much had it not been for the eagerness of the Noble Earl.
If the report of the Committee mentioned the extinction
of tithes, he might complain that one day the plan was
commutation and anuther extinction.—(Hear, hear.)
Formerly it was extinction, now it was commutation.—
(Na, no.) The Noble Earl was not consistent in his state-
ments. —(No, no, and laughter.)
Earl GREY had not said one word about ti e extinction
or commutation.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM had formerly heard of
extinction, and now heard of commutation.—( Hear, hear.)
The Noble Earl had not shown how tithes were to be com-
muted. In the present state of Ireland, he did not think
such a scheme could last 48 hours. When they promul-
gated the report they were bound to state—considering
the situation and anxiety of Ireland—they were bound
to state to what extent the measures were to go which
they contemplated.—( Hear, hear.) lI came down to the
House only intending to put the question to the Noble
Earl which he would then ask, which was—when did the
Noble Earl intend to explain to the House the plan be had
i❑ contemplation?

Lord PLUNKETT wished to say with respect to the
language used by his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) on a Ibr-
mer occasion, that it Was not possible for any language to
he more industriously misrepresented, though it was then
mast gratefully accepted by cheers from the other side.
He would not enter into his Noble Friend's views, but
only say, that the language be then used was exactly the
same as what he had now said. There were persons in
Ireland of two opposite factions, who were reckless of all
the consequences to the peace and tranquillity of the