The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-04 00:00:00

he Bill-a species of prom
' is country itself than by
of which, therefore, this
on to pay. It was a law.
into effect the great ex.
f his Noble Friendoppo-
when great anxiety was
( Hear, hear.) The
hat the first resnlutien
rnissioncrs for compensation sheutldhebeeffdeicrtect‘e'dThtO;ptah; toCottilh;
owners of slaves, the interest on the amount of their elwaiimt:
from the Ist of August, 1834, at the rate not exceeding
31. 7s. 81 per cent.
The resolution having been read from the chair,
Mr., HUM E rose and complained of the nature of the trans-
the loan; arid as the instalments were intended to pay those action, as far as he could understand. it. His Right Hon.
debentures, it amounted to the same as a money payment. He Friend had contracted a loan of fifteen millions, ter which he
now wished to explain to the House' the manner in which he have 100/. Stock, and 1 11. ss. 10d. Long Annuities ; so that,
in point of fact, he gave 111/. ss. 10d. for every Moe ;
proposed that the loan should be raised. He'peopbsed that the
this difference only, that 100/. of that sum was paid in Stock.
instalments should be distributed over a period of time from
-( Hear, hear.) The goodness of the bargaia '!,epended upon
the 6th of August till the 13th of September, and so regu-
lated that the larger instalments should be paid at those times whether the Three per Cents, should be at par or not.: His
when it was supposed 'that the claims would be heaviest, Right Hon. Friend thought that they would riot be at par for
and the smaller- instalments when the demand was less. several years; and his (Mr. Hume's) expectation -was that
It ought to be consideri.ed that this was the first loan
made in circumstances similar to the present. It was the they very soon would be at par, ill which case the contractor
would have a great advantage.' He would have prefei•red a
first loan made since the alteration of' the currency, and, more simple system of making the loan, Ile would hove pre-
indeed, it might be said, that this was the first loan made
under the new state of the currency and the money market, ferred if the Chancellor of the Exe':;equer had said, to the con-
tractor, " I want 1001., say
whatever the rate on
[fleas also the first loan contracted when the price ofStocks was what rate you can give it at ?" and
so high as they knew it was at present, and the consequence of
not, depend?
reduced to 31 per e• ''''iich it was borrowed C'vas, it might be
that height of price was, that the loan contracted in place of : ant. ' Whether the loan was profitable or
calculating upon a rise in the price of Stocks, calculated upon did tin, .. e entirely upon the rise or fall of Stocks. He
a fall, and regulated its biddings accordingly. At the time s e - think that the loan was either so simple or so favour_
when the tender for this loan was made, it was under::
toed able as might have been obtained. He was not disposed to
that there should have been a competition for it lees e •
. - -eleven two or. think that it was a favourable loan, considering the present
Q -r-eil more gratife ing to state of the Money Market.
three parties, and nothing would have
Ert, equer) than that that had The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was rather
him (the Chancellor of the
disappointed to find that the terms of the loan did not give sa-
been the case, for he shou. let then have felt himself relieved of the responsibility of dealing with one individual and one only, tisfaction to his lion. Friend, but he hoped that on considers.
and he should in that Case have been able to come to the House lion it would appear more and more satisfactory to him. He
with the statement of its having been laid open to competition, was expressly precluded from the arrangement proposed by his
and his having adopted that which appeared most conducive
Hon. Friend, by the provisions of the Act itself, to borrow ato the public advpart of the suit by way of annuity. He was rejoiced, how-
antage. He could assure the House that this
evereto find that his Hon. Friend objected to the terms of the
loan was held out to reublic.coenpetition, but it turned out that
two of the three, who were expected to bid declined availing loan on the grounds of the flourishing state of the country, in
which ho was very happy to agree with him. The Hon. Mem-
themselves of the opportunity ; and on this day (yesterday)
her had objected to the annuity system, and said he could have
the only offer made was by the house of Rothschild and Com-
parry, the name of whose house was sufficiently well known to contracted the loan entirely in stock ; but the effect of that was
to prevent this loan becoming to that extent a permanent bur-
all who heard him. The only protection which he had in these
den on the resources of the country.
circumstances as against the contractor, was by the terms of
Mr . CLAY then said a few words which were inaudible in
the sealed packet* which had previously been agreed
to. On receiving the tender of the loan contractor, if the gallery.
HON. MEM BER, whose name we could dot hear, observed
his offer was more advantageous than that which he
that n e
e could not help congratulating the country in the
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had set down in
the sealed paper, he was bound to accept the
,tender, brit good state of public credit, as exemplified on the terms
if on which this loan had been effected. If any insidious mea-
if on the contrary it was less advantageous, the loancon- sure for tampering with the currency had ever been lis-
tractor had the option of accepting the terms set down in tne toned to by Parliament, most assuredly a large loan like
paper, or if he chose he might reject it. He would now state that now proposed could not have been effected on the terms
to the House the particulars of the proposal which he received stated by the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer. The
that morning ; the terms which the First Lord of the Treasury
present loan differed from all others ; all former loans had
and himself had placed in the sealed paper; and, finally, the
result of the whole transaction. The closing price of the
been raised for the purpose of carrying on war, the present, Three per Cent. Consols on Saturday was 90f per cent. howevero, had been effected for the purposes of humanity, and
The amount of this rate to be paid in money would be for rem ving a foul blot on the nation.
671. 17s. 63. The closing price of the Three per Cent. Re- Mr.
"rent that had been entered into.
duced was 91, and the amount of this rate to be paid in
Money was 22/. 11s. The tender made by Mr. Roths-
14s. 11d
Mr. T. ATTWOOD remarked, that
at present there were
child was for a Long Annuity
four millions of gold and one million, of silver disposable in
at
~ while the terms England. He vial kl to learn from the Right
proposed by the terms in the sealed paper was for a the Bank of
Long Annuity of 13s. 7d., which value in the money prices lion.
Gentleman whether thie loan of 15,000,000/. was fo be of Saturday at isk would amount to 11/. ss. 9d. He (the paid in A paper money or in gold, and if in gold, where it was to
Chancellor of the E come from.-( lateeda.:)xchequer) having rejected the offer made The CHANCII;'LLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
by Mr. Rothschild, after some considerable deliberation Mr.
Rothschild agreed to accept the terms set down in the scaled the Hon. Genitleman must be fully aware of the only answerhe could
glut and therefore it was unnecessary for him to reply.
paper ; and these then were the terms upon which the loan was
The resolution was then agreed to, and the House resumed.
contracted. Now, he would state the difference between the
The Report to be received to-morrow.
one tender and the other, and the' consequences which would
proceed from the adoption of his (the Chancellor of the Ex-
IRISH CHURCH BILL.
chequer's) proposal. In the Act of Parliament a limit was put The House then resolved itself into a Committee on this
u on the Bill, for the purpose of taking the postponed clauses into con-
op erations of Government in re and to the contracting
of a loan, although the Government had the power of con- sideration.
erecting a loan of a nature binding uphem was this that the
on the nation, by signin Clause 6 was then agreed to.
the contract. The limit put upon them
Clause 9 (compositions for tithes may be revised on applica-
rate of interest upon any loan raised under the Act, should in tion to the Commissioners of Land Revenue) was then read.
no case be more than ss. per cent, more than the current rate Lord CLEMENTS could not consent to the clause in its
of interest, at the market price on redeemable annuities. At present state; he therefore trusted that his Noble Friend
that rate the niaximung rate of interest per million would be would consent to re-open a composition when an appeal was
entered by considerably less than one half the number of tithe-
-35,760/., or 7601. above 31 per cent, as calculated upon the
nnord MORPETH thought it would not be advantageous
quer's) proposal, and which was the settled terms of the con-
e
average rate of Consols during the last six years. The terms rs.
a
P Lord of the loan, according to his (the' Chancellor of the Exche-
to open compositions, unless it appeared that some grounds of
tract, differed from the maximum allowed by the Act by the
complaint existed; and if they did, there would not be any diffi-
annual charge of 23,6131., which represented a principal of
tufty in getting the requisite number of signatures. He thought 405,505/. The terms accepted differed from the terms first that the Bill at present pressed sufficiently hard on the clergy-
proposed by Mr. Rothschild by an annual charge of 10,075/., man, and he did not wish to add to his trouble. There was,
representing a principal of 149,233/. He (the Chancellor of under this clause, sufficient power of appeal, and he objected to
the Exchequer) had, therefore, saved to the public the diffe-
open appeals without sufficient cause.
Mr. O'CONNELL suggested that a revision of the
nonce between the tender made by Mr. Rothschild, which
composition. might be allowed on the appeal of one-third of
amounted to 10,000/. a year, and he had saved to the public
the difference between the terms of the loan as contracted, the tithe-payers instead of one-half. lie also recommended
and period should be extended in which '
and the maximum limits-allowed by the Acts, which amounts
to t the
acere the appeal was
to 23,613/, a year. And now it became his duty to state theake pl.
Lord MOR PETH thought tbat if there was good ground
rate of interest at which this loan was practically contracted.
i or complaint, parties were -Riffleicntly alive to their own into-
The money amount of the loan was 101/. 183. 3d., and the ex- rests. He therefore should in this instance adhere to the ge-
cess above the money amount of the day was IL 18s. 3d.,the con- - at the question should only be opened at the dis-
tractor being entitled to pay up the value of the discount,amount-
cretion of the neral rule-th
ing to 1/. 19s. 9d., which made a total amount of 103/. 18s. Tee majority.
ordinarY discount on loans being 4 per cent. the rate of dis- After a few words from Mr. O'Betees Mr. J. GEA7TAN,and Lord CLEMENTS,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for Ireland said that it
count had never been so low as that agreed upon in the pre-
sent loan. In addition to this, the rate of interest was most
was not necessary that there should be a majority of the rate-
favourable and on the fairest principle. He took the average payers to open a composition, but even a single individual
rate of interest of Consols for the last six years. He (the might do so, if he paid more than half the tithes.
Chancellor of the Exchequer) hoped that the next six years The clause was then agreed to.
might be as favourable as the last six years, in which case ne
Clause 10 (grounds on which applications for seizure may
was sure that the loan-contractor would find that he had
made an advantageous loan, which he would be well entitled
venue, be founded, to be submitted to Commissioners of Land Re-
to, but that could not be entirely reckoned upon. lie found,
A lengthened conversation took place, in which several
however, that for the last six years the rate of interest on Con- Honourable Members took part, as to whether the powers
sots was at an average 3/. 10s, per annum, and it was satis-
to be conferred by this clause were sufficient ; it was, how-
factory for him to be able to state, that although the funds ever, carried on in such a low tone of voice that it was unin-
are so uncommonly high, the Consols being 90k, and the telligible in the galiege..
Three per Cent. Reduced being 91, still the rate of interest The O'CONNr.'eIi:DON said that the provision would epee
on the present loan is lower, being contracted fOr at 3/.75.6d. rate, in some particular instances, unjustly.
to 3/. 7s. 81 per annum: A more advantageous contract had
sor -_,l
I d ORPETH proposed some verbal amendments to
never been entered ioto, and he could not but exct that it
would give satisfaction to the House and the public.-(Hear, , Meeithe objections of the ,Hon. Gentleman.
The clause, after a short discession was agreed to.
hear.) The rate of interest was quite unparalleled--( Hear,
hear.) He found, on comparing the rate of interest on t Clauses 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 50, were then agreed to.
h.
present loan with that upon previous loans, that the difference Clause 51, which proposes the remission of the million ad-
was as follows :-
vented to the Irish clergy was then read.
The interest on the loan of 1822 was 5/. ss. 7d.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY rose to state the grounds on which
1813 - 510 6 he should oppose it. He referred to, the speeches of Lord
2d loan of 1813 - 5 6 2 Althorp, Mr. Littleton, the Right lion. Member for Man-
-1814 - 412 1 Chester (Mr. Poulett Thomson), anti the present Attorney-
-1815 - 5 12 4 General for Ireland (Mr. Perlin), on the occasion of the grant
1819 - 4 .5 9 being proposed, to show that it was brought forward simply
•
1820 - 4 3 3 as a loan ; and that, according to the statements then made,
And on the present loan 37 6 the Government of that day would not have proposed it, had
-( Hear, hear.) More favourable terms could not possibly they not felt the most perfect security regarding its repayment.
be expected.-( Hear, hear.) This interest was to be corn- lie wished to be understood, when speaking of the Irish
puted not as the present charge, because 101,000/. was ter- clergy, as riot expressing any feeling of hostility to the as-
minable annuities, but the charge to the perpetual debt actif- sistauce given to them. He thought, indeed, that they wer
ally amounted to no more than Si. 7s. 6d. per cent. He had fully entitled to pay the full amount of what was due to them, al-
e
now completed his statement in regard to the loan. Security though he could not forget that there were men among them who
had now been taken that, at whatever time the session might were not to be found illustratiot, the precepts of their religion by
close, the Government should be in a situation to meet any a local observance of the duties of their station, but who were
claim which might be made on its justice and the justice of to be found in club-houses at Cheltenham, or ready to receive
the country. Government was now prepared rigidly to fulfil their transmitted tithes at Paris, or some other city. No
every portion of the engagements entered into by Parliament grounds had beeu put forward by the Government for remitting
under the Slavery Abolition Act ; for the West India Pro- the million, which-had been advanced ; nothing had been pro-
prietor could not think it a hardship that he should be paid posed-there had been only some insinuations in favour of such
partly in debentures instead of being paid in money. He had a, course. It bad been insinuated that the remission was a
great pride in saying that the whole operation of the loart small,, sacrifice for the sake of a great benefit. What was the
would be conducted without imposing any obligation uncle the bezet&F-? The only effect of it was to add another million to
Bank of England or the Government, or have the :remotest the amount already given up by the Bill in favour of the Irish
hazard of disturbing the circulation of the country.• He 'elandlOtde; and mci -swell, that amount to five millions. Thus,
trusted that the House would not ask him, even if he had it in according to the `stafemieht of the Right Hon. Baronet, the
his power, to reduce the rate of interest upon this loan, if that- other ifi;ht, taking thefitheS at -600,000/.-200,0001., or one-
reduction was to be effected at the risk of cmbarassing third, was to be at once remitted. The fee-simple of that at
the • circulation of the country, or if the effect of it 20 years' purchase was 4,000,0001., to which. was to be added
would be an undue issue of paper.-( Hear, hear.) He the farther sum of 1,000,0001., to be remitted by this clause.
would state what he proposed to do with regard to the It was then insinuated that the insertion of the remission clause\s.
by-gone interest. The question was, from what time the would facilitate the passing of the measure elsen here.-as
payment of the interest should commence. Now, upon what there any of that kindly feeling shown at present in that other
ground was this compensation to be paid ? It was to be paid place ?-( Cheers.) They would find, indeed, that the stub-
as compensation for the loss to be sustained under the pro- bornness there prevailing would be only increased by this aban-
visions of the Act for the Abolition of Slavery. The donment of the public funds. In the attempt which that House
question, then, simply was, when that Act came into opera- was making to run a race of popularity with the Representa-
tion, or iu other words, when the loss under the provisions of tives of the people, by impressing the country with a sense of
the Act took place ? Now, it was known that the Act came their assumed jealousy of the vested rights of the lower classes,
into operation on the Ist of August, 1834-and he therefore would they not, if they rejected this Bill, say that they had
held that from that date the House was bound to pay interest done so from regard-to, the pockets of the people, and to check
to those having' claims._( Hear.) The resolution which he the mad and profligate waste of the people's Representatives ?
should move would affirm that principle.-( Hear.) It then It was again insinuated that the remission was necessary, be-
became a question, what rate of interest should be paid? He cause the money could not be recovered. But that argument
meant to propose a rate which would, perhaps, not be consi- would not bold good. By the Act commonly called Stlinley's
dered sufficient by the claimants themselves at first sight, but Act, the composition then made oompullOry for ethe. tithes •o£
which he thought, on consideration, they would- find to be fair. 1834, was rendered a primary charge,upOn'the 'lard; and how,
He proposed to give ahem, not the interest given upon Ex- could the framers of this Bill, if tlmy pretended to be unable to
chequer bills, but the interest to be paid upon this loan--and he collect that, hope to recover hereafter the rent charge which
further proposed that it should-be paid to them from the Ist the measure established as its future substitute.? He called upon
of August, 1834.-( Hear.) But the Act provided that the the Government to state what equivalent the country was to
expenses of the Commissioners of Compensation, both at have for the money proposed to be remitted. With this example
home and abroad, should be paid out of the general compensa- of Ireland before them, might not the tenantry, and espe-
tion fund ; and accordingly a table had been sent by Govern- cially the dissenting tenantry of England, claim an exemption
ment to each colony, showing the different proportions to be from their tithes for the next three years-from 1835 to 1638 ?
paid by the colonies. The amount having been there- They might with equal justice; and the only difference would
tore apportioned among the colonies, if means could be be, that the House would then be called upon to advance 3or
found for paying the expenses of the Commission without 4 millions for the English clergy, instead of the one million
disturbing the apportionment, it would be both simple and which they had advanced to that of Ireland. He called on
better than that a rateable reduction should be made from the Conservative landlords around him, who had induced the
the whole amount. He proposed, therefore, to reserve Government to give up the tax on cur-dogs mid aretiles, and
the interest payable since the else of . August, 1834, to who had thanked God for the relief so afforded, to act honestly
pay the expenses of the Commission. lie had now gone on this occasion by their tenants, and demand that they should
through his statements. He had told the terms upon not be allowed to pay their hard-earned money for purses
which the loan was made, and compared, the interest paid for which they ought not to provide. Ile should net move
upon it with interest paid upon the former loans. He any specific amendment because if he were to pretend that
had pointed out the advantageous' terms upon which the loan the repayment be charged on the landlords. of Irelend, he
was contracted, and shown that the circulation ran no risk; should be met by a body of Irish Gentlenien instantly declarand he had explained the proposition as to the payment of ing-as was declared by one of them the
the-
claims, as well as the manner in which interest upon claims were ready to pay every h ''...ther night-that y ..
char jP:posed on them-that they
was to be paid. He did not know if he had the good for- wanted none of the money of ehae tune to make himself clearly understood, but he had endea• all they wanted was ^
in :nee to their country :-and that the
people of England ; but that
mired to do so. He would conclude by mentioning that this Ilinno knew was loan had two characteristics :-the first was, no previous bean I made the
t'eart of an Irishman vibrate till he exhausted everyl
a subject which, when once touched upon,
had been- contracted, the payment of the interest qf tilliA was 1 tre
provided for, after the reduction of a 1400 ,mount of
the Govern
tion, without making au agitian its the natiVn'/... i.
op-pnoeseartidhefiegluarueseofoin•haetgoreince.-ral(iLwairmhptice,r.l)eavliinig. should simp y
sad secondly thie e-rie tice first time that a
- and expressing his
by which the
.money might be recovered,
' furtTi nu' io‘.- ' - en.n
was
contracted by
meet, with their fruitful resources, to carve out some means
remission of this
.7-..,44 el.l 4 of lia" eau defence, or cf ambitiOe in own willingness to support any proposition for that purpose.
"tnding d°071..n abroad-but
..
it
.was contracted for the pur- Lord M 0 RPIE, TH admitted that the ,
' •
premium on those who had -
pose of' effecting that great object of the friends of humaniiy money was contrary to the
fuaned,elrstanding held out at the time
in this country, as well as in the whole world, with a due re- of granting it, and was so
a mut then contracted, and a pee
Bard to the interests of
,pertics interested its that species 'of evaded or violated the engagement

PRICE 7D

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