The Sun.
London, England, 1866-05-08 00:00:00

The modes of attaining that end may be varieusly sug-
gested. My right hon. friend the member for Gateshead
suggested a kind of suspension clause in the Franchise
Bill. My hon. friend the member for Wick suggested that
these two bills should proceed pari passe; meaning, I sup-
pose, that the corresponding stages of the two bills should
be taken in succession, one at a time. But even then, if
our minds had arrived at a certain stage of jealousy, that
does not wholly attain the point, inasmuch as you cannot
read the two bills a third time at the same moment ; there-
fore, it is an abstract possibility of the separation, even at
the last moment, of two Siamese twins. Another proposal
—I do not remember whether it was made in the debate,
but it has been mentioned—is the incorporation of the two
bills into one. No doubt there is but one point of view in
which we have ever felt a difficulty with respect to the
combination of the two bills. When this question was in-
troduced we did not feel ourselves in a condition to say to
the House of Commons, " We now ask you to amend the
representation of the people, and we ask you to make what-
ever sacrifice of time and personal convenience which may
be necessary in order to complete the treatment of the mea-
sure." But at a subsequent stage of our discussion I did
state to the house that we had no objection whatever to go
on continuously and successively with these subjects pro-
vided it were understood they were not to be dropped, but
that we should persevere till they were disposed of. That
statement did not necessarily mean an altered session, be-
cause there is another method which has been adopted on
rare occasions, and which might be again resorted to to
Prevent the dropping of a measure, viz., a lengthened ad-
journment of the house in the months of July or August
until the month of September or October. (Laughter.) It
is quite evident from the laughter of lion. gentlemen oppo-
site that they are not anxious for the combination of the
two bills. (Hear.) I wish to describe simply but clearly to
the house what is the position of the Government. What
the Government object to is the loss of the year. (Cheers.)
We are not willing to be parties to the loss of the
year and to the postponement of the subject. We
may have been right or we may have been wrong, but we
felt it to be wise to approach the subject during the pre-
sent year, and we believe that we were right. (Cheers.)
What I think is obvious is, that having approached it we
ought not to recede from it. (Hear.) Our intention is to per-
severe with that which we have proposed. If it be the ge-
neral desire of the house to adopt any other method—and
other methods may be suggested besides those I have men-
tioned—for attaining the object of the noble lord (Stanley)
viz., of guaranteeing that these questions shall not be se-
parated, we are perfectly ready to adopt such method—
(hear)—subject only to the condition that we go forward
and we do not throw over the subject for the year. (Hear.)
On a former night, looking back to what had been done at
the period of the Reform Act, I did state that we had come
to the conclusion that it would be impossible to dispose of
the subject of the redistribution of seats within the limits
of the session. The house is aware of the difficulties
under which computations of that kind are formed. If
there is a disposition to agree to the redistribution of seats,
there is no intrinsic difficulty in the matter which requires
very prolonged discussion ; but, on the other hand, if
there is a disposition to treat the question of the redistri-
bution of seats as a matter of controversy, and to stickle
for every point as it arises, the points which may be raised
upon it are so numerous that there might be a very large
demand indeed on the time of Parliament in order to get
through it. It was in view of the probability of such a
large demand that I said we had come to the conclusion
that we could not probably dispose of the whole subject
during the session. But in regard to that matter we are
in the hands of the house. We should be very glad, if it be
the pleasure of the house, to proceed with greater despatch
than wo had been sanguine enough to anticipate, and
which will be in our view all the better for us and for the
country. (Hear.) However, sir, the point which has been
urged upon us is that the subjects should not be sepa-
rated, but that one should securely and certainly follow
in the train of the other. The point which we have to
urge is that the year shall not be lost. (Hoar, hear.)
And, therefore, if it be proposed to combine the sub-
jects, either by combining the two bills into one or by any
other method satisfactory to the house, we shall give a wil-
ling consideration to the subject, if only it be understood
that we adhere to our original proposition, and that is, that
as a Government we have no intention to advise a proro-
gation of Parliament till the whole subject—meaning by
the whole subject the question of the franchise and the
question of the redistribution of seats—isdisposed of by the
judgment of Parliament. (Hear.) Sir, I hope what I have
said has made clear to the house the position in which the
Government desire to be understood as standing. I will
not at the present moment say anything specific with res-
pect to the proceeding on this bill. Our impression is that
the members of the house have been waiting to learn the
character and substance of the bill, and that they will
probably come to a final judgment on the question of pro-
cedure. I will therefore only at present remind the house
that in the debate on the amendment I stated generally
that which I am now endeavouring to explain fully and
clearly, viz., our desire not to quarrel with any portion of
the house, agreeing with us as to the end in view, upon
the question of procedure. (Hear.) If we have had de-
bates which have involved matter of warmth and interest,
the whole of these debates I put out of view and memory.
For the present purpose I assume we have met together for
the prosecution of this bill with all despatch compatible
with a due consideration of the subject. There is one
method—a resolution to prolong our labour till the whole
matter is disposed of—by which, as it appears to us, the
ends of combining the two subjects and of not losing time
are brought into harmony. Be that as it may, there is no
element, as I hope the house will see, of reproach, suspi-
cion, or controversy in the declaration I now make. We
are frankly ready to enter into such arrangement as will
give the house the best security that it will retain in its
own hands the power of dealing with the whole subject,
only we must not lose the time and labour which have
been already spent. I have now only to add that her
Majesty's Government will not advise a prorogation
till the whole matter be disposed of, if it be the desire
of the house to combine the two bills into one. Of course
I must be understood as reserving all causes of public
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which on every ground it appears to demand. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving for leave
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Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, I rise only to touch on one of the
three subjects which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has
brought under our consideration. When he rose I did not
contemplate I should have to trouble the house on either
of those subjects ; but I shall confine myself entirely to the
question of procedure. I must say I have listened to the
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that subject
with feelings akin to astonishment. (Hear, hear.) It is
generally considered the duty of a private member of the
house,when he brings forward a bill or proposes a measure,
that he should at least indicate the mode in which ho in-
tends to ask the opinion of the house, and the time ho
thinks it may be convenient to ask for that opinion. But
so far as I could collect from the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, he has not at all given any means to the house by
which they can arrive at any conclusion as to the course
which the Government propose the house should adopt in
this matter. Irrespective of being a member of this house,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer brings forward this mea-
sure as leader of the House of Commons, and it is his duty
to regulate the general course of business of the house.
But hero is most important business before the house,
which has engaged our attention during a great portion
of the session, and which is contemplated by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer as being likely to engage
the rest of our time, brought before us, so far as I can learn,
without any explanation. lam really at a loss to know on
what day, and in what manner, the opinion of the house
will be taken upon the important subject introduced by the
Government. I must put it to the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer that the usual practice has been to offer the house
information with regard to the mode of procedure, which
is one of the most important duties of the Government. I
hope we shall be informed on what day our opinion will
be called for upon this most important subject. (Opposi-
tion cheers.)

There were loud cries of " Gladstone, Gladstone," fol-
lowed by repeated ironical oheers.
Mr. BOUVERIE remarked that the proper time to take
any issue on a bill was on the second reading. The real
pinch in all this question, he believed, was the redistribu-
tion of seats. He urged the house to settle the matter in
the manner proposed by the Government, which, while he
believed it would be satisfactory to hon. members, would,
he was sure, be acceptable to the country.
Sir IL CAIRNS pointed out that the Government, hav-
ing been reproved and condemned by a minority of the
house (which, but for Cabinet Ministers and Scotch votes,
would have been a majority), now declared that it was for
the House to dictate what the course of the Cabinet should
be. Seeing, then, that the Government had relinquished
the reins, it only remained for the house to resolve itself
into a committee to consider how the affairs of the country
should be carried out.

General PEEL announced that at every stage the mea-
sure should meet with his most strenuous opposition.
Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied that
the Government were justly chargeable with the abdica-
tion of power. At present, he proposed to place the second
reading of this bill on the paper for Monday next.
After a few words from Mr. ROBERTSON and Sir R.
KNIGIITLEY,
Leave was given to introduce the bill. _ _

The LORD-ADVOCATE briefly explained the Reform
measure relating to Scotland. It would reduce the borough
franchise to £7, which would increase the electoral body
by 26,000, of whom 17,000 would bo working men. In
counties the franchise would be reduced from £5O to £l4,
which would nearly double the number of electors having
an occupation franchise. The property franchise would
also be reduced from £lO to £5, with the condition of pre-
sent residence.

A sharp discussion arose, in the course of which
Sir W. MAXWELL argued that another member should
have been given to the universities of Scotland.

Mr. H. BaILLIE inquired why the Government had not
proposed to deal with small constituencies in Scotland as
they intended to do with those in England.

Mr. 3PLAREN considered that they ought to' have
had a 40s. freehold franchise for Scotland. Instead of the
Government having done too much for Scotland by their
bill, he contended they had only just begun to do justice.
After a few words from Sir D. DUNDAS,
Leave was given to introduce the bill.

Mr. C. FORTESCUE, in stating the terms of the mea-
sure for Ireland, said that it was not intended to touch the
county franchise in consequence of recent legislation. The
present rating occupation franchise, it was proposed, should
be reduced from £8 to £6. This would add 5,500 voters
to the borough register. The lodger and savings bank
franchises would also be applied to the sister country.
There were only three cases so peculiar as to justify a
transfer of seats ; and an additional member would be
given to Dublin city and Cork county, while tho Queen's
University would be put on the same footing as the Lon-
don University, and have a right to return one member to
the house. To provide these three seats six smaller
boroughs would be thus grouped—Bandon with Kinsale,
Portarlington with Athlone, and Dungannon with Ennis-
killen. There were also seven boroughs with a population
under 8,000 which would be united with other places.
The scheme was criticised by Sir H. CAIRNS and opposed
by Mr. WHITESIDE, who said that the Government dodge
this time was to give everything to Scotland and nothing
to Ireland. A number of other Irish members spoke, and
ultimately
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
The house then went into committee of ways and means,
when the whole of the resolutions for the purpose of giv-
ing effect to the provisions of the financial statement of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer were agreed to, after a slight
discussion on matters of detail.
In committee on the National Debt Acts,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved a
resolution authorising the creation of terminable annuities
for £24,000,000 on account of savings banks, as detailed in
the Budget scheme.
After some discussion, the proposition was agreed to.
The Waterworks Bill passed through committee, and
the Harbour Loans Bill was read a third time. The Naval
Savings Bank Bill and the Landed Property Improvement
(Ireland) Bill, together with several other measures, were
advanced a stage.
The house then adjourned.

President Johnson.

(From the Times' Correspondent.)

In the perplexed and uncertain state into which
public affairs have fallen, it is impossible for me to
send you any information more important or
valuable than the particulars of an interview which
I had with President Johnson at the White House
on Thursday last. The President's opinions, espe-
cially with reference to the Freedmen, have been
so wilfully misrepresented in the Radical press of
this country, and his general policy towards the
Southern States has been exposed to so much un-
justifiable perversion, that Mr. Johnson's own ex-
planations on both these subjects may have some
weight even with those who are most embittered
against him.
The President first adverted to the condition in
which he found the country on his accession to
office, and pointed out that ever since that time the
Radical party, which now has the control over
Congress, has been preparing for the issue forced
upon him. Their object was manifest, and it was
one which, from their point of view, they could
scarcely be blamed for pursuing so eagerly. They
knew perfectly well that when the South came back
into Congress their day of power would be over—
the Southern representatives would stand as a unit ;
they would probably fall into alliance again with
the Democratic party, the old issues of slavery and
State sovereignty would be dead and buried, and
the party which now ruled would be stripped of its
power. Their talk about philanthropy and bene-
volence to the negro meant nothing more than a
desire to work upon the feelings of the North, so
that they might be enabled to carry everything
their own way. It was arenewal of an old conflict.
The two sections of the country were ready to go
to war before the rebellion broke out—the one to
preserve slavery, the other to destroy it. Each side
was willing to sacrifice the Government in order to
gain its object. The South struck first ; the rebel-
lion was subdued at the Southern end of the line,
and now it is swinging round to the other end.
" These men," continued the President,—and he
always used these words to denote the Radical
party,—" are almost ready to go into rebellion
again rather than have their supremacy destroyed
by the re-introduction of the South. They know
nothing practically of the real state of the South.
The very man who had drawn up the Civil. Rights
Bill, what are his means of judging ? I left him in
the Senate during the war, and went out to Tennes-
see and saw it all, and bore my share of the
troubles. He stopped at home, and now endea-
yours to make his theories square into the events of
the war, and legislate on ideas which he had never
put to the test."

The President then went on to speak of slavery
and the negro. He had been brought up, he said,
under the very shadow of the institution of slavery,
He had bought and owned slaves, but still he had
always been for abolishing slavery upon any basis
which could be adopted with safety to the country.
When it came to the question whether slavery
should be abolished or the Government broken up,
he never had a doubt as to the course which he
ought to pursue ; he decided to give up slavery,
and he abided by that decision. But the South
now would treat the negro with greater kindness
than the North if it were let alone and not exas-
perated. " They talk of justice to the negro," con-
tinued the President. " God knows my heart yearns
towards him when I think of the end which these
men are preparing for him. I see that end clearly
enough—they are going the way for a conflict of
races. When that occurs we all know how it will
fare with the negro. How has such a contest
always ended? When the time comes there will
be no struggle. The result will be decided with-
out that. Now, then, what do we find ? The very
thing which we said these Southern States could
never do, which we fought these four years to pre-
vent them doing, these men affirm that they have
actually done—namely, been out of the Union.
The Southern States are ready to come back upon
our terms, take loyal oaths, and acknowledge their
allegiance, but these men say they shall not. Why,
if they had offered to come back, or any of them,
during the rebellion, should we have turned them
away on the ground that they had placed them-
selves out of the Union ? Mr. Lincoln offered to
receive the whole Legislature of Richmond—a rebel
Legislature, and would have welcomed them with
open arms. Would he have refused to receive
these States now that they have fully submitted ! "

The President next referred to the misrepresen-
tations of his policy which have been so industriously
spread abroad. " These men " had for months past
had the public mind open to them, and had poured
into it whatever they pleased. Now it had become
incrustated, as it were ; but once let that incrustation
be broken through, and the truth would begin to
find its way. "I am not discouraged," added the
President ; " either these States must be brought
back, or they must be kept out. It is like doing a
sum in addition—some sums want figuring up more
than others before you can get the answer, but I
believe it will come all right in the end."
Mr. Johnson then enlarged with considerable
detail upon the operations of the Freedmen's Bureau,
and said that its machinery was now being used to
get negroes conveyed from the North back to the
South by the very men who were asserting that the
lives of the freedmen were not safe in the South.
They had hired or bought land, they wanted labour,
and they got their negroes transported at the ex-
pense of the Government. The Freedmen's Bureau
compelled the negroes to go, or they stopped their
subsistence allowance. It was little better than
another form of slavery, only that it was solely
conducted by Abolitionists ; for the Freedmen's
Bureau would not assist a Southern man in getting
negroes from the North, where many thousands of
them have taken refuge during the war. A gentle-
man from Falkland county, Virginia, had been to
him, the President said, only a few days ago, saying
that he had sent 300 negroes to the district (of
Columbia) for security during the war. lie now
wished to hire them, but the Freedmen's Bureau
interposed obstacles, and would give him no help
in transporting them ; whereas the Government
railroads were placed at the service of other specu-