The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-18 00:00:00

POOR LAW COMMISSIONERS.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM presented a petition from
the parish of Stoke Poges, in the county of Bucks, in which
the petitioners complained of the power given by the Bill to
the Commissioners—they stated that for upwards of forty years
they had had a workhouse of their own—that wages were very
high in the parish, and that they had, at the present time, very
few paupers—that their poor rates had been diminishing gra-
dually. Last year they had to raise 1,1001. ; but this year
they had to raise only 8001. Yet the Commissioners of the
Poor Laws had decided upon forming a union of parishes—
that one to be the central of thirty. To this the petitioners
had most strongly objected and remonstrated, but the only
favour they had obtained was, that in place of thirty pa-
rishes, the Union should consist of only nineteen, and
that the central workhouse should be removed
.to a distance
of four miles from their parish. That was a great grievance—.
it was removing these poor people, as it were, to a foreign
country—( A laugh)—to them that distance of four
miles might appear as much as a journey to
the Pyrenees to their Lordships. The story that he
was about now to tell was almost incredible, but he
had made every inquiry into it, and now believed that
it was correct.—( Hear.) An assistant Commissioner had
gone down, and made a statement to a most respectable cler-
gyman that out of the 19 parishes which were to form the union
12 had workhouses, and it was the intention of the Commissioners
to take advantage of those twelve for the purpose of classifica-
tion, so that now the poor man was to be sent to one
place, the poor woman to another, and the children of
those parties were to be separated from them entirely,
thereby separating husband from wife, and children from both.
That was not the law of England, and he would ask if the
time bad come when parties were to make it so ? He complained
that there was no responsible person, for by the Act of
Parliament the Commissioners were not allowed a seat in
Parliament, and that petition had been sent to the Se-
cretary for the Home Department, who very justly said
that he knew nothing about it, because neither rules nor
regulations had been sent to him from the Commissioners.
It thus appeared that by this Act the Poor Law Commissioners
had been called upon to make regulations for the people of all
this kingdom. The great inconveniencies that these Commis-
sioners experienced from the powers thus vested in them
had compelled them to transfer their privileges to the over-
seers of the several parishes in the country, so that the
poor were now left to the caprice of these local autho-
rities.—( Hear.) He thought that he had stated all that
he deemed necessary to lay before the House, but be-
fore he concluded, he would assure their Lordships that
the people of England were sensitively alive to the evils of
this Bill, and that they were carefully watching and suspecting,
(and suspicions arose in their minds which their fears not only
created, but magnified) that the evil should be removed. If these
evils were not removed—if the people of England saw their
children sent away from them—if the wife was to be separated
from her husband, and both from their offspring, great discon-
tent must arise ; and at this moment, when people were abroad
exciting discontent, nothing should be more avoided than
the introduction of any topic at all conducive to aggravate
such excitement. He was amazed that the Commissioners
themselves did not foresee the evil consequences of this Bill,
but he would entreat of their Lordships, for God's sake, to
set the minds of the people at rest on a subject which he ad-
mitted was very difficult to be contended with. It must
have a very bad effect to have different rules established
in different parishes, and such was the consequence of the
contradictory regulations that now prevailed. Different mea-
sures of justice were now dealt out to the people, and he sin-
I
cerely hoped that their Lordships would give their serious and

early attention to remedy the evils which were so generally
complained of.
The Duke of WELLINGTON observed that the Noble
Duke had spoken of the circumstances mentioned in the
petition, but not of the means of ascertaining whether
they were founded in fact. This, however, might have been
ascertained very easily, for all the proceedings of the
Commissioners were recorded, and they were obliged
to furnish a copy of them when required. On coming into
that House he had received a paper on this very subject, but
not having had time to read it, he should like to have till the
next day to produce a statement which he was sure would exo-
nerate the Commissioners.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said that the petitioners
had already written to the Commissioners, praying them to
consider the subject of the petition ; but that he had no ob-
jection to postpone the petition till the next day.
Lord BROUGHAM did not complain of the Noble Duke
presenting this petition, but he must be permitted to say, that
he lamented, lamented without blaming the occurrence, as
having a tendency to alienate the public mind from that confi-
dence which ought to be bestowed on the Commissioners, who,
he would venture to say, deserved it most fully, not only from
their character but from their conduct, and to which they were
most especially entitled from their conduct in their present
office. These statements had a tendency to alienate the public
mind from these Commissioners—to sow suspicions as to their
actions—suspicions which had no foundation whatever, and
which were absolute chimeras. The Noble Duke presented
this petition, as he was perhaps bound to do, having had it laid
before him ; but the Noble Duke would be the first to be satis-
fied with the answer given to it, and so far it was gratifying to
reflect that the presenting of the petition afforded an opportu-
nity of at once contradictinc, the mis-statements it contained—•
mis-statements which had been pretty widely circulated. There
was one thing in which it was impossible to agree with the
Noble Duke, namely, that things had been threatened which
had not been done, for he should show that it was not so ; but
there was one thing in which he fully agreed with the Noble
Duke, that things were apprehended which were not even
threatened, and he should show their Lordships that things
were apprehended which had never entered into the minds of
the Chief Commissioner, or of any Sub-Commissioner, which
they bad never even dreamed of, and which had never been
imagined but by these petitioners themselves. The Noble and
Learned Lord was about to comment on the matter of the pe-
tition, when

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM proposed that the petition
should be read at length by the Clerk of the House.
The petition was accordingly read.
Lord BROCGHANT entirely agreed with his Noble Friend
opposite, that men viewing things in a certain frame of mind,
were apt to apprehend proceedings which had no existence in
action, in intention, or in the imagination of those against
whom such apprehension was entertained. That was
the case in the present instance. It would appear from
the petition now before the House, that the union of the
eighteen or nineteen parishes of which Stoke-Poges formed a
principal part, was a voluntary act on the part of the Poor-
law Commissioners; and that although many objections had
been taken, and inconveniences urged by Stoke-Poges against
such union, yet that the Commissioners had obstinately and un-
precedentedly, and almost without consideration or inquiry,
persisted in this combination of parishes. But how in reality
did the fact stand? The attention of the Commissioners was
called to the subject of this petition by memorial—which was
presented—by whom, did their Lordships suppose ? By the
several parishes in the two hundreds of and Stoke ? No ;
but by one parish only. And by whom was that memorial
signed ? Was it by the landlords of the parish—by the assist-
ant-commissioner—by persons connected either with the Go-
vernment, or with the Bard of Commissioners, or with the
magistracy ? No such thing ; but by the poor them-
selves—by the paupers of the district, complaining of the bad
management of die poor in those parts, setting forth the par-
ticular details of that mis-management, and urging upon the
attention of the commissioners the propriety of interfering on
their behalf, and of executing the law in their case, by form-
ing an union of the several parishes in question.—( Hear,
hear.) The Commissioners sent an assistant-Commissioner
down, who, on the spot, might examine with his own eyes, and
hear with his own ears, all that could be urged upon the
subject. This assistant •Commissioner went to the various
parishes in the neighbourhood, and found ample confir-
mation of the statement previously made to the Board,
of the necessity of an union being formed. But that able
individual was not satisfied with this ; he went to Salt-
hill, as a central position of the parishes, and by public
announcement he summoned a meeting of the inhabitants
of the several parishes, without any distinction of persons or
any exclusion whatever. The meeting was most numerously
attended; and he then distinctly stated to the persons present
the powers of the Commissioners ; he dilated upon the repre-
sentations made to them by the paupers of Stoke Poges, res-
pecting the management under which they lived, and he men-
tioned to them the disposition that existed—no formal plan, no
arrangement having been concluded upon—on the part of the
Commissioners to accede to the prayer of the memorial of the
paupers. After some conversational discussion, the whole
meeting, without one dissentient voice, earnestly and warmly
approved of the proposition, that the parishes of the hundreds
should be united—the nature of that union and the conse-
quences of it having been fully explained to them.
The Duke of BUCKING HAM asked the Noble and Learned
Lord who the persons were that attended at the meeting?
Lord BROUGHAM could not say that was it was a very
numerous meeting. The first objection to the proceedings of
the Commissioners was, that they had volunteered to form
the union of these parishes ; but could it be said, he would
ask, that they had entered upon this matter, without being
called upon to do so ? Then it was objected against them,
that having once determined to interfere, they carried on their
interposition without due inquiry. On the contrary, he did
not think it was possible that any men could have exercised
greater caution. Now, he would show their Lordships what
the fact really was (for nearly all the principal facts stated in
the petition had been placed before the Commissioners), and
he would then leave it to their Lordships to say whether the
Commissioners were disinclined to consider the objections of
the petitioners or not. The Commissioners being anxious to
meet the wishes of the parties as far as was consistent with their
duty, sent for the Assistant-commissioner, and conferred with
him on the proposed union (which would have included up-
wards of thirty parishes), and after an attentive consideration
of the subject, they found themselves enabled to form two
unions, in one of which Stoke-Poges was comprised, toge-
ther with sixteen other parishes, which arrangement prevented
the necessity of building a workhouse at Stoke ; one of the
objections to the plan of the Commissioners, being the build-
ing of a workhouse on Stoke-Poges Common. Having
thus far complied with the wishes of the parties, the Com-
missioners did not think it right to comply with any other of
their suggestions. He would now advert to what was stated
in the petition before their Lordships. The statement of the
petitioners was, that the affairs of the parish of Stoke-Poges
were excellently well administered; that, by the blessing ?f
God, they had few if any of the evils to complain of in their
parish which affected other parishes ; that the men were well
employed and all in a flourishing state ; that the farmers were
contented with their servants, and the servants with their em-
ployers ; that the rates were coming down very much ;
that there was no agricultural distress in the parish;
that the workhouse could not be better managed ; and
that, in short, Stoke-Poges was as well off as it could be
with respect to the poor ; and they therefore complained
of any interposition by the Commissioners. Alas ! he was
sorry to state, that from the view he had taken of Stoke-
Poges, it did not appear to be so well off as other parishes ;
and the reason why the parishioners supposed it to be
was, that they did not know how much better off other
parishes were whose affairs were differently administered.
Their content would be very much disturbed when they
heard what was the condition of other parishes ; for it
was only by comparison that they could really understand
their own. It struck him, however, that on some other
day Stoke Poges would raise its voice upon the subject of
agricultural distress, and all that fairy prospect which was de-
scribed by them would be obscured by a thick cloud whenever
the unfortunate monosyllable Malt should be united with their
prayer._( Laughter.) Their Lordships no doubt would hear
with surprise, that the Scale system prevailed in Stoke-Poges
with the greatest degree of exacerbation—that that very worst
of all the worst consequences of the mal-administration of the
Poor-laws, could be found nowhere worse than what existed
in the Parish of Stoke-Poges. The next topic on which the
petitioners boasted, was the admirable condition of their work-
house, and especially the economy of it. Now it had been as-
certained, before this controversy arose, that the management
of the workhouse at Stoke-Poges was exceedingly bad in all
the main essentials, and particularly as to its internal economy.
They boasted of the manner in which the children were
taught. There were three bastard children there between
thirteen and fourteen years of age, who were nominally em-
ployed in chipping wood ; nothing could be less cleanly
than their persons, and their progress in letters was
such, that they did know what letter followed the
letter A.—(Laughter.) But a beginning was better
than nothing. Then with respect to the test of eco-
nomy, viz., the great lowering of the rates. He had
obtained a list of the whole seventeen parishes included in
the proposed union, and he found that the expense per head
for the paupers, was in one parish, 3s. ; in another, 3s. 2d. ;
in another, 3s. 4d. ; in another, 2s. Bd. ; and in another, as
low as 2s. 6d. The latter parish was Donney—which really
was well managed ; but the parishioners did not complain of
the union, nor brag of the excellent management of their
workhouse.—( Cheers.) But he now came to Stoke Poges,
where the rate per head was 4s. 2d.—(Loud cheers)—and
which did brag of the management of their workhouse.—
(Cheers.) There were but two parishes at a higher average
—Eaton being 4s. 10d., and Raisbury, 4s. 4d. per head.
Then if the amount of the rate was compared with the popu-
lation, the same result would be found with respect to Stoke
Poges. In 1831 the proportion of the rate to the population,
in one of the parishes, was 11 s. 9d., whereas now it was
within a fraction of 15s. Now one great argument urged
during the discussion of the Bill last Session was, that
the great mischief was going on every day with an
accelerated pace. The consequence of the union would
be this : that instead of each parish having to main-
tain a separate workhouse, with a separate set of officers,
one set of officers would be able to manage the
affairs of the whole union, greatly economising thereby,
besides greatly facilitating the superintendence of those to
whom the management of the workhouse would be intrusted.
But it was said—why include Stoke Poges ? The answer
was, that it would have been perfectly absurd to have made the
union without it, because it was almost the central parish. The
Noble Duke had given their Lordships a caution (and nobody
was more fit to do so) not to be deceived by any statements
that might be made; but he (Lord Brougham) had to give
the most positive, the most distinct, and the most peremptory
contradiction that words could give, to the whole of the state-
ment respecting the alleged threatened separation of husband

and wife, parent and child, in that union. There never was
any intention of the kind entertained, nor was it ever dreamed
of. One or two of the workhouses in the union were designed
to be used as hospitals, because, of course, the sick were not
to be kept with the sound No child, for instance, would ever
be taken away from the parent, much less would husbands be
separated from wives. But the name of an honourable and reve-
rend gentleman had been used as having given currency to
this statement.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said that he did not knots
the honourable and reverend gentleman ; all that the petition-
er alleged was that they had been informed of it by that reve-
rend gentleman.
Lord BROUGHAM was quite aware that the petitioners
had been misled. It was said that the Commissioners had re-
fused to deal out the same justice to Stoke Poges as they had
to the parish of Egham. But, the weight of that charge de-
pended upon whether the circumstances of the two parishes
were the same. A Noble Baron behind him had, on a former
occasion, made some observations respecting the Commission-
ers not having issued any rules or regulations in pursuance of
their powers. He felt it due to those Commissioners to state
that they had endeavoured, by all manner of means, without
making any new general rules in abrogation of the Statute-
law, to encourage the parishes to introduce improvements
themselves ;_( Cheers)—to do what they could with the law
as it now stood ; to get it into the best possible state of admi-
nistration, and to postpone to the last moment any alteration
by the Commissioners. He (Lord Brougham) thought they
had acted most wisely, soundly, and discreetly.—( Hear, hear.)
They had effected unions to the amount of fifty, inducting pa-
rishes to the amount of one thousand. But some persons were
so prejudiced against the new law, that in a certain parish in
the county of Buckingham, a certain person had such an ob-
jection to the Board and the Act of Parliament, that when he
mis-stated the law and was told to read the Act, he exclaimed
—" Read the Act I neither have read that Act, nor will I
ever look at it."—( Much laughter.) It was very likely that
persons under such equanimity of temper, and of such just in-
tentions, would make mistakes in matters of fact as well as in
law. To show that the proceedings of the Commissioners had
been attended with good effects, the Noble and Learned Lord
said, that without th formation of unions they had succeeded
admirably in many places, and in none more than this metro-
polis. In one parish a saving had been effected of 11,000/. a
year, and in eighteen parishes the saving had been 40,000/. in
one year. This had been done by the steadiness,,the deter-
mination, the suggestions and assistance of the Commissioners,
without recourse to new laws or the consolidation of unions.
Buckinghamshire had greatly benefited in consequence of the
suggestions of the Commissioners. Many poor persons,
mostly women and children, who were without em-
ployment in their own parishes, had been sent to Manches-
ter, all of whom now obtained a livelihood by their
own industry. They had a common saying among them,
that all the horses in Buckinghamshire would not draw
them back again. Among other cases, the Noble and
Learned Lord mentioned the following :—" Bans of marriage
had been published a first time, but the moment a union of
the parishes were formed, the bans were suspended, because
the parties expected when they married to have the pa-
rish allowance. But the Act had taken away from them their
" ways and means :" deprived of their budget, they had no
longer any estimates to make.—( Laughter.) The consump-
tion of spirituous liquors had considerably decreased since the
passing of the Act. The proprietor of one gin-shop in Lon-
don had declared that the. Act had been from 40/. to 501. a-
week out of his pocket. But these were only the begin-
nings, and while they were in the green good.—(Cheers.)
He gave them as mere samples of what a little attention, sys-
tematically bestowed, by a Central Board, having all parties
under its view, would accomplish. He could add that the ap-
plications under the Act of Parliament for certificates from
Friendly Societies had, within the last six months, been
doubled. It was absurd, however, to expect the full results of
the law within the time since the Commissioners had been
appointed. It would be as preposterous as the conduct
of the great German Potentate, of whom it was said that,
like a child, he planted a bean, but did not wait till it had
grown, but was always taking it up to see how it thrived—if
Parliament were to encourage these complaints, and call for
inquiries into the working of the law, absolutely before it had
been experimented at all.—(Cheers.)
After a few words from the Marquis of SALISBURY
and the Duke of BUCKINGHAM, which were not au-
dible in the Gallery, the petition was ordered to lie on the
Table.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM then said, that in conse-
quence of what had passed this night, he should take an early
opportunity to move for a copy of the Correspondence be-
tween the Commissioners and the Overseers, and other autho-
rities respecting the union including the parish of Stoke Poges,
in order that the parties might have an opportunity to support,
if they could, the statement which had just been so flatly
contradicted.

TRANSFER OF AIDS BILL.—EXCHEQUER
BILLS (15,000,0001.) BILL.
These Bills were brought up from the Commons, and read
a first time.

The House adjourned at seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARC!! 17.

The gallery was not opened until half-past four, in conse-
quence of two ballots having taken place for Committees to
try the petitions presented against the returns for Rochester
and Droitwitch.

There was a very large attendance of Members, particularly
on the Opposition benches, among whom we observed Mr.
O'Connell, wearing a large bunch of shamrock.

WATERFORD ELECTION.

The SPEAKER announced to the House that the petition
against the return for the city of Waterford was discharged--
the petitioners not having entered into the required securities.
Mr. A. G. SPE llt S brought up the report of the Com-
mittee on the Cart Navigation Petition which was laid on the
table.

ROCHESTER ELECTION COMMITTEE.
The Rochester City Election Petition Committee were then
called in and sworn, consisting of the following Members :
Greene, T. G. Locire, W. Colborne, N. W. R.
Loch, J. Bo'ling, W. Wilbraham, G.
Scourfield, W. H. Lefevre, C. S. Thompson, P. B.
Marsland, H.
.... M'Taggart, J.

PRINTERS' NEW BILL.
Mr. ROEBUCK presented a petition from George Wood,
a printer in Bath, in favour of the Bill introduced by the So-
licitor*General, relative to the penalties incurred by
Printers, and sued for by common informers. The Hon.
Gentleman, in consequence of his ill health, was allowed
to move the appointment of a Committee upon National Edu-
cation, otherwise he must have made the motion at a very late
period of the sitting.
The motion having been agreed to,
Mr. HUME moved that the proceedings of the Committee
of last year be referred to the present one.—Ordered.

EDUCATION.
On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, the following Com-
mittee was appointed, pursuant to the order of March 3 :
Roebuck, J. A. Bowring, Dr. Pusey, Philip
Russell, Lord J. Mosele) Sir 0. Hawes, B.
Peel, Sir R. Warburton, H. Knatchbull, Sir E.
Graham, Sir J. R. G. E.stcourt, T. G. B. Molesworth, Sir W.
Strutt, E. Parker, J. Lincoln, Earl of
Plumptre, J. P. Goulburn, H. Rice, T. S.
Thomson, C. P. Hawkins J. FL Hoy, J. B.
Verney, Sir H. Ashley, Lotel Clay, W.
Grote, G. Divett, E. Mordaunt, Sir J.
Sandon, Lord Finch, G. Morpeth, Viscount
Kerry, Earl of Smith, Vernon William, R.
Gladstone, W. E. Baines, E.
Mr. ROEBUCK then presented two petitions, praying for
a system of national education.—Referred to the Committee.

DUBLIN ELECTION.
Mr. WYSE presented a petition from Thomas Dixon, of
the city of Dublin, praying for the remission of certain fines
incurred by him, in consequence of not entering into the
required sureties on forwarding an election petition to
the House against the return of Colonel Thomas for
the borough of Kinsale. The petitioner alleged that
he had been betrayed into those irregularities in con-
sequence of the clerk of the Hanaper office having failed
to give him all the necessary information. He would, how-
ever, not press the petition upon the House, but move that its
consideration be deferred until to-morrow.

Mr. C. W. WYNN did not object to the motion ; but
he believed that the excuses made by the petitioner were not
well founded. The Act of Parliament required certain se-
curities to be entered into within a given time, and that Act
was imperative.

Mr. HUME made some observations in justification of the
Hon. Member for Chester, to whose care the petition had been
entrusted.

Mr. C. WYNN made a few observations, and
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
DROITWICH ELECTION.

The Droitwich borough election petition committee were
then called and sworn, consisting of the following Members:—
Lewis, D. Neeld, J,,hu 1 Arbuthnot, Ho% H.
Wi'liams, R. Landon, Lord , Scott, Lord John
Bradshaw, James Hoskins, K. Marsktad, T.
Mosley, Sir 0. l Weyland, Major R.

. . „ .
Mr. bUEST presented a petition from the manufacturers
of woollen cloth from a town in Yorkshire, praying for relief
from the distress they labour under.

LONDON UNIVERSITY.

Mr. TOOKE presented a petition, praying that there be
laid upon the table of the House a copy of the charter incor-
porating this Institution.
Mr. WARBURTON addressed the House, but was inau-
dible in the reporter's gallery.

TOOKE hoped that whatever regulations might pre-
vail, all members of the medical profession, no matter where
inctructed, would, if qualified in other respects, be not rejected
by the Medical Board.
Mr. ROEBUCK was desirous that whatever privileges
might be conceded, the claims of the Dissenters should not be
overlooked.