The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-20 00:00:00

IMPERIA LPARLIAMENT

THIS EVENING.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. WISE presented two petitions in favour of the
Anatomy Bill, and one from the National Political
of Ireland, in favour of the Government plan of education.
Union
town of Waterford, complaining of the smuggling of sow,
He also presented a petition from the soap boilers of the
and praying for an alteration of the law regarding that
commodity.
Mr. HEY WOOD presented a petition from the congre-
gation of Unitarians assembled at Moseley street Chapel,
Manchester, in favour of the Government plan of education
in Ireland. The Hon. Member laid on the table a paper
containing an account of the number of prisoners tried at
Lancaster Assizes in each year since 1826, distinguishing
the number in each hundred.—lt was ordered to be printed.
Lord KILLEEN had a petition to present which affected
in a great degree one of the dearest privileges of the people ;
he meant the right of petitioning this House. It was from
the town of Nobber in the county of Meath. A requisi-
tion had been signed, calling a meeting to be held on the
15th July, at the town of Lobber, for the purpose
of petitioning this House. He did not know for certain,
but his impression was, that the requisition was signed
before the letter of Sir W. Gossett was published. He
did not believe that the magistrates acted with any
feelings of hostility towards the people, but that they
merely acted in obedience to orders. However, they
went there with a military and police force, and read first
the letter of Sir W. Gossett, and next the Riot Act, after
which they dispersed the meeting. The Noble Lord, after
adverting to the statements in the petition, which corro-
borated the facts he had stated, proceeded to contend that
the conduct of the petitioners was fully justified, inasmuc h
as the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had promised the
people of that country a total abolition of tithes; instead of
which he had brought in a Bill to perpetuate them, and
render their payment compulsory. The moment the people
struck at the rents, those who now advocated their cause
would be against them.---(Hear.)
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN thought the Noble Lord had
treated the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland with
great unfairness. He had never promised any thing ap-
proaching to a total extinction of tithes—be had spoken
of a eotnmutation.—(Hear, hear.) fie agreed with the
Noble Lord, that the moment the people struck at
rents the landlord would be against them. Why would
they be so? The answer was obvious; such a step would
dram from the pockets of the landlords instead of the
clergy. The meetings which had taken place in Ireland
tithes
on this subject were highly illegal, and had placed that
hear,
,the
of puttingcountry in a state of complete rebellion.—(Hear,
hear.) opinion,
would means ntlien into the pockets extinction
o of the
be of
landlords a great portion of that which now went into the
pockets of the clergy, and it was therefore the wonder that
those who would be thus benefited advocated and sanc-
tioned such illegal proceedings.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL congratulated the Right Hon. Se-
cretary on having so able a lawyer for his advocate,
though he felt persuaded the correctness of his inten-
tions did not need it. With respect to Ireland being in a
state of rebellion, he must be allowed to say that not a
single fetter had been shaken, a single assault committed, or
any improper act ante by those who met for the purpose if
possible of procuring the extinction of tithes. They talk
about a rebellion in Ireland; but if there was a rebellion,
It was one with a single musket, or a pike, or a bayonet.
The people met occasionally in considerable numbers—
but then they were peaceable, they dispersed when
told to do so by the magistrate. But he would ask why
it was that the people of Ireland were not to be allowed
to meet for the purpose of petitioning that House, as well
as the people of England? How was it that there was no
attempt to crush the meeting of 150,000 Englishmen at Bir-
mingham ? It was because they were Englishmen. Where
was the Treasury hack, where was the paltry scribe, who
dared to write a circular to the Magistrates to disperse
that meeting? The lion. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley) might
sneer and laugh, but would he do so when an impeach-
ment was banging over him in a reformed Parliament,
when the House would be cleared of 250 of the nominees
of Lords. —_ (Hear, hear.) They might cheer, but he
was determined, if he was in the next Parliament,
that that Hon. Gentleman should be impeached f it
bis conduct towards Ireland. Was it to be borne that the

priest should be dragged from his altar, the merchant from
his country house, the tradesman from his shop, and t:
country gentleman from his home all because they met
the purpose of agreeing to petition that House? In whet
other country would it he allowed, that all this should he
done, and even insult added to it, by the persons
being dragged through the streets by thief-taker,
when not one but would have attended by a verbs
message? certainly not in England. This was tl
second celebrated letter of the Right Honourable Gen-
tle nan's upon this subject, and he Loped some Hon
M enher would move for it, but if not he would himself
do it in another Parliament. There was not a
word in this letter of instructions, that the mag s-
trafes were to act upon information on oath. WII it
then had become of the boasted liberty of a British
subject, when the magistrates were ordered to act upon
any fancy they might themselves form. What he com-
plained of was, that the meeting in the county Meath was
dispersed, when they had met for the purpose of petition-
ing that House, a Deputy Lieutenant in the chair, a Ala.
gistrate moving a resolution, and the people all quiet,—he
complained that the meeting was dispersed, without tl e
least pretence for saying that it was likely to cause any
outrage. The petition, though not yet presented,
would ere long be on the table of the House. He as as
sine the subj et would not end here—it would be heard t f
again and again, and he would say that the result would
be that the people of Ireland would be as free to meet tor
such a purpose as this one did, as the glorious people of
England did, and in what numbers they should think
proper. The people of Ireland had a noble example be-
fore them in the conduct of the Noble Lord opposite(Miltcn)
he refused to pay taxes, they refused to pay tithes, they
had as good a right to do so and they would continue to
do it, but they would not commit one single breach of
the peace. No, they would keep within the law to dis-
appoint their enemies.
Mr. STANLEY thought it scarcely necessary that h
thought follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman through
all the topics he bad touched upon. As for the
threat of the Honourable Member he treated it
with the same contempt as he had dose on
former occasions, for it had often been repeated. There
was no one more anxious to give and secure to the peril le
all their rights, and more especially the right of petition-
ing that House, but it was not to be allowed that they
should meet in such large assemblages as led to actual in-
timidation. Such meeting might be harmless in the
country at one time and mast mischievous at
another, and no man could say that in the pie-
sent state of Ireland they could possibly be allowed
to go on without being most detrimental to the peace and
safety of the country. He was told by the Hon. Gentle-
man that there was no outrage committed, but could that
Hon. Gentleman say with truth that great outrages on
proberty did not spring from these meetings. He knew
that immense damage had been committed, and it as a
easy to trace the cause. He agreed with the Hen. Gent.
th it the case would not rest here, for prosecutions had
already been commenced, and the case, the conduct tit
both the Government and the parties must come before
the legal and ordinary tribunals of the country ; this ren-
dered it unnecessary for him to say much at present upon
the subject. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
said that the meeting was merely for the purpose of
addressing that House, but in that case where
was the necessity of flags and banners of a very
seditious tendency. He had had a letter that morning
from the Governor of the county, in which he was in-
formed, that though the meeting was not attended by all
the districtt that intended to be present, yet there wete
not less than 150,000 people assembled—and the Magis-
trates had information on oath, that flags were making,
intended to be exhibited, two of which he had seen.—
One of them was made of green and white—round the
border was wrilten, " The people are the stronger," and in
other parts, " He who would be free, must strike the
first." " Ireland as she ought to be." Beneath this last
was the figure of a llarp with the Crown detached, when
the informant asked the meaning of this last, he was told,
it was typical of the repeal of the Union. This proved
that the character of the meeting was not what it was
represented. The Magistrates acted on this information,
and on other information which they had, but all on oath,
and dispersed the meeting. In the present state of Ireland,
the meeting was dangerous, the Government considered
they had sufficient power to put them down by the law,
and would do so on their own responsibility ; if the law
was not strong enough, he would have no hesitation in
coming either to that House or a reformed one for new
powers. _ _ _

Mr. HUNT admired the dexterity with which the
Right Hon. Gentleman interpreted the law, it was ex-
tremely convenient, the idea of meetings being barmle.s at
one time and not at another. If the Birmingham had not
been to keep the Miaistry in their places it also would
have been illegal.
•

Mr. SHIEL said he should support the petition,`
Were the Government justified, he would ask, without an
Act of Parliament, in dispersing meetings which had as-
sembled for the constitutional purpose of petitioning that
House ? The Orange meetings were permitted to go on,
headed even by martial muse and banners, in various
parts of the country, attended in some instances by up-
wards of 300,000, among whom were some Magis-
trates ; and although they were fraught with
every circumstance of alarm and intimidation, and
although they had been denounced before hand, while a
meeting which took place in the county of Meath, not for
intimidation, but for the purpose of petitioning Parlia-
ment, was dispersed at the point of the bayonet.—(Hear.)
If the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley) was right in
the opinions of the Law Officers of the Crown, why was
it that he had introduced the Party proceesion Bill ?
The question was not whether Ireland was in a perilous
condition, it was not wheiher these meeting was to be
dispersed, but whether the law of the land was to be
violated, and the constitution infringed thereby ? The
people of England has a direct and immediate interest in
this, because if a precedent were adopted in a province, it
would speedily be established and extended as conveni-
ences might require. It had been said by the Right
Hon. Gentleman (the Memly-r for Tamwortli) on a
former occasion, that he would support any new clause
for the purpose of strengtening the executive in Ireland,
and undoubtedly if Ireland were in desperate circumstances
she might be legislrted for accordingly. But were the
Government to act on extraordinary powers, before they
received them ?
Mr. CRASIPTON said the Government bad no inten-
tion to interfere with the right of petitioning. But the
Hon. Member for Louth had assumed that the meeting ou
the subject of this petition was legal, and constitutionally
assembled for a constitutional purpose. It was, however,
assembled nominally for one purpose, and really far ano-
ther. It was therefore the duty of Magistrate, having ju-
risdiction, to suppress it. He believed this petition had
been got up for the purpose cf dissolving those bonds by
which society in Ireland was bald together.—Hear, hear.)
The petition prayed an investigation into the circum-
stance of the disperson of the meeting. Three persons
had been apprehended and on their trials, at the
approaching assizes, the matter would undergo legal
investigation. It had assembled, not• to petition but to
agitate, to enter into a combination against the payment
of tithes, and to pronounce a sentence of civil excommu-
nication against those who refused to become parties to
their nefarious scheme. The law of the land, he was of
opinion, was sufficient for the Government, but it was ne-
cessary to be enforced. By whom, however, was it to be
administered, if not by the Magistrates, who were
responsible for their conduct ?---(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite might, if he
pleased, move in the Court of King's Bench for an
information against the Magistrates.—(Hear, from Mr.
O'C.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said " Hear ;"
he knew that he entertained an opininion that the Law
Courts in In Ireland did not duly administer jus-
tice—(Hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—and that they
were not to be trusted. It was a gross libel, and al-
though their characters were traduced, and their actions
vilified, never were there abler, more honest, and more
humane men, than the Judges of Ireland.
Sir ROBERT PEEL rose to correct a mistatement
made by the Honourable Member for Lowth. He had
not stated, on the occasion alluded to, that any new
powers ought to be granted to Government—for in
fact, he had great confidence in the energy of the ordinary
law, if yroperly enforced, and until every other measure
was exhausted, no extraordinary powers should be resorted
to.

Colonel PFRCEVAL bore testimony to the impartial
character of the Judges and Juries of Ireland.—.(Hear.)
He recollected the Hon.:and Learned Member for Kerry,
stating that the Protestants of Ireland, generally, in this
outcry against tithe.—(No, from Mr. O'Connell.) lie

eettainly had so understood she Honourable and
Learned Gentleman. He (Colnel Percival denied
thltt assertion. The Protestants as a body, although there
..flight he some few exceptions owing to intimidation, or
expectations being held out to them) loathed and detestel
this a;rocious combination against the payment of tithe.
He might agree with some persona that what called a
Reform, might be introducee in the disposition
of church property—(Hear)—but he would never agree
to separate the property from the church. The bishops
might cause a fairer division of the property, and appro-
priate it more equally; but the clergy received their
tithe by the same right as the landlords received
their rents. He looked on this attack on the tithes only
as pleliminary to an attack on the rents, and he knew that
many of those who wished to destroy the tithes
looked forward with confidence to a reduction of
rents. It was, therefore, extremely satisfactory to
him to see the Government come forward with their tithe
and other measures, with a view of suppressing that com-
bination. A great part of Ireland was now in a state even
worse than rebellion. He stated as a fact, that on the Gth
of this moth, at a meeting upon tithes at Balliman,
the Roman Catholic Priests brought up their flacks with
banners bearing inscriptions disrespectful towards the
the Clergy. Roman Catholic Priests in numbers appeared
on the platform, and went the length of stating, that
they would form themselves into a Union to
overawe the Assistant Barristers in the execu-
it ni of their duty. Indeed the state of the
country was such that an open rebellion would be a bless-
ing in comparison with it—(Hear)—for thee Government
would be obliged to use prompt and decisive measures fur its
suppression. He denied that the Protestants of Ireland as
a body at all participated in the proceedings against tithes.
He was aware that in the conspiracy to suppress the tithes
a number of farmers were compelled to come forward and
attend the meeting, who detested and loathe I conspiracy.
RUTHVEN asked is the peop e had a right to
meet and petition for Reform, why they were not allowed
to meet peaceably to petition against tithes. He believed
the orders to disperse the meeting to have been illegal and
unconstitutional. It was owing to the go .d sense of the
people in dispersing quietly that no mischief arose, and no
blood was spilt.
He hoped Government would not act that part which was
BO much desired by those who wished to see Ireland in
open rebellion.—The petition was then broughtlup.
A mesage from the Lords brought down the Anatomy
Bill, with amendments, to which they desired the concuro
rence of the House.

Lord KILLEEN rose to move that the petition liP on
the table, and was left speaking.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS,
Several Private Bills were brought up front the Com-
mons, and read a first time.
LONDON POLICE BILL.
The City of London Police Regulation Bill was read a
second time, and committed for Monday ri..At.
On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND the Re.
medy against the Hundred Bill was read a third time and
passed.

REFORM OF PARLIAMENT (IRELAND) BILL.I
The Duke of CUMBERLAND asked whether the
Noble Earl would not postpone the second reading of the
Irish Reform sill beyond Monday next, urging the ab-
sence of Ir;sh Peers, and their expectation that the Bill
would not so soon have come into their Lordships' House.
Earl GREY begged to decline, as he had last night,
complying with the Noble Duke's request. The printed
copies of the Bill would be on the tai de this evening, or
to-morrow morning at farthest.
The Earl of LIMERICK urged the postponement of
the second reading on the same grounds as the Noble Duke.
Lord GOSFORD said he was convinced that the delay
of a fortnight or three weeks would not bring an increase
of Irish Peers to town.

The Duke of WELLINGTON thought the second
reading ought to be postponed.
Earl GREY could not help thinking that any postpone.
ment of the second reading would only lead to unnecessary
delay, which it was most important at the present time
should not take place. If the second readiug pissed on
➢londay next, he hoped it would not be considered as
hurrying the Bill too much, if the Committee were fixed
for Thursday next. As they must all be familiar with the
Bill, he did not think any Noble Lord would have to corn-
plair of haste.

Lord WYNFORD said, that although the Bill had,
upon their table, as it had not been printed, they had had
no opportunity of considering it.
Earl GREY—The Commons have printed it.
Lord WYNFORD said, he had enough to read their
Lordships papers. He should under all the circum-
stances think himself justified in moving that the second
reading of the Irish Reform Bill be taken on Thursday next.
The question having been put, Earl CBEY muved as
an amendmant that the Bill be read a second time on.
Monday.

The House divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment
Against it
Majority for Ministers