The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-20 00:00:00

,there every day—it was so severe as to be a disgrace to any
~ civilized country. He knew many who' were actually pre-
- vented from going out to beg from the mere want of
clothes.—( Hear.) He knew many who were seen wan-
dering about in the day time in rags, and who were obliged to
trust these rags to another being who had been confined during
the day by want of them. Amongst other things be recom-
mended an extension of the system of public works in Ireland,
a measure which he understood had been contemplated by a
Noble Duke formerly at the head of the Government.
Mr. O'CONNELL rose with great reluctance to oppose
the present motion. He was convinced that the best inten-
tions actuated those Hon. Members who had supported it, but
, he found their charitable feelings had led them into an error
of judgment rather calculated to mislead the House than to
effect the humane object they had at heart. Such a resolution
as the-present instead of relieving poverty would tend to per-
petuate pauperism. .He hoped the House would mit pledge
itself to any such resolution. If a Bill had been introduced at
once it would not pledge the House so firmly as this resolu-
tion s for a Bill even after the first and second reading might
be so altered and amended in Committee as not to be the same
thing in the end. Then there was great indefiniteness in the
wording of the resolution. What was the meaning of " help-
. less?" Why it included every able-bodied man in the country,
who, with a large family and a tolerable appetite, had no work
and nothing to support himself and his family. Then there
• were the " aged" to be included. Now though there was un-
' doubtedly great poverty in Ireland, there was this moral
feeling existing amongst the poorest of its inhabitants, that no
Man would allow it to be said of him that he had neglected his
, aged mother or father. That moral feeling would -be broken
in upon if the poor law system was to be introduced. The
course which the Hon. Member intended to pursue with his
project was highly objectionable and tedious. First, there was
to be a resolution passed ; then a Bill introduced ; then that
' Bill was to be referred to a Select Committee ; the evidence
• was to be had before that Committee ; and so the session
would came to a close before any division had been arrived at.
There was a Commission already at work, inquiring into the
state of the poor in Ireland, and the evidence they had already
collected exceeded anything that English Gentlemen could
conceive of wretchedness, an proved amongst other matters
that the poor were supported almost entirely amongst them-
selves. The beggar was driven from the rich man's door, but
he was always received on applying at the door of the needy
cottager. He wished the report of this Commission were on
the table of the House, in order that they might see what re-
lief could be afforded to the Irish poor without destroying that
'integrity and honour which at present existed amongst them.
He would entreat the Hon. Member not to press his motion at
present. This was a question which should not be brought on
or discussed under the influence of party feeling. If poor
-la Vis were to be introduced into Ireland at all, it should be
under 'the sanction and under the responsibility of Govern-
ment.--( Hear, hear.) The poor laws had not prospered so
well in England, after all; and a most extensive experiment
was adopted'in the last session, in the hope of remedying great
and long-existing evils which had grown upon them ? 'Why
. . could not the House see how this experiment would answer be-
lore they extended its operation to Ireland ? He should move
the previous question by way of amendment.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR agreed with the Hon. and Learned
. Member for Dublin that there were many objectionable fea-
tures in the existing system of poor laws ; yet still he thought
that, even with those evils they were preferable to no provision
at all for the relief of the distressed. He had hoped when he
heard the Honourable and Learned Member allude to the dis-
advantages in the method in which this question had been
brought forward that he would at least have suggested some
better course, but he had not done so. For his own part he
(Mr. O'Connor) would not be content to leave this question
in the hands of Government, espeeially after the opposition
-which the Right Hon. Baronet opposite bad given to the mo-
tion of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough the year before
last. He (Mr. O'Connor) was one who wished to see the
laws respected in Ireland ; but that they could not be whilst
the people remained so poverty-stricken. He hoped English
Gentlemen would not suffer a motion having this for its object
to be swamped in the way the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin had attempted. The Hon. Member for Dublin, though
powerful on other occasions—and he (Mr. O'Connor) was
glad for the interest of Ireland and the cause of liberty and
.justice that he was so powerful— ( Hear, hear, from a section
of the Opposition, and laughter from the Ministerial benches)
—yet with all his power he was quite powerless on this ques-
tion. That Hon. Member would find himself borne down
by the force of public opinion. He trusted for the interests of
his country that the Hon. Member would go on with his mo-
tion and press the consideration of this important question
again and again on the attention of the House. The
present Bill only proposed to grant relief to the aged, to the
infirm, and the helpless young ; but that relief was not enough
to settle the present disorganised state of Ireland. He (Mr.
' O'Connor) would go much farther. He would not limit him-
self to this species of partial relief, to be extended to particu-
lar portions of the people. He would have a classification of
society in Ireland, and without this there could be no good
effected for that country. Yet he would take all that he could
obtain, though that might not amount to the full demand of
justice he was entitled to make. He knew many Irish land-
lords, who had been before hostile to the introduction of poor
laws into Ireland, change their opinions lately, in consequence
of the growing necessity for that measure. At present every
farmer's house was a poor-house. Let not that House talk of
agitation, or social disorganization. The poverty of the Irish
—the absence of poor laws—was the fruitful source of both.
Neither let them speak of giving wholesome laws, and grant-
ing measures of legislative liberality, while the people wanted
wholesome food.—(Hear' hear.) While the people were
famishing, they would be discontented ; and there would not
be found persons wanting to foment this discontent, engen-
dered by poverty.--(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. O'Connor) in-
tended to bring in a Bill on this subject, but the Hon. Mem-
ber had taken it out of his hands ; and he was glad of it, from
the superior mode in which the Hon. Member could deal with
it. The present misery cief Ireland was to be traced to the
system of giving small farms and subletting, with all their
concomitant evils. He hoped Ministers would give some
' pledge that they would take up this question-
Mr. P. SCRO PE next addressed the House—Were the
people of Ireland happy ? They could not be said to be so.
As a question then of policy some provision should be made
for the starving poor of that country. Then as to the other
question, that of humanity, he would ask should the people be
suffered to starve? The distress of the Irish poor led to
starvation—periodical famines in that country were so frequent
as to become matters of notoriety. The population it was
shown had turned yellow from feeding on weeds. Was that a
condition for a people to be left in, or for a people to endure?
• __( Cheers.) The Hon. Member quoted long extracts from
Parliamentary reports, to show the extensive distress to which
the Irish poor were occasionally subjected. The starving man
would not be content to die in tranquillity ; he would sooner
commit outrage to keep up life, and hence much of the po-
pular disturbance. A great portion of the Irish poor were
unemployed most of the year. From this cause originated the
Whiteboy system, which was the Irish poor laws—a system
which was sanguinary in its nature, and whose officers were
assassins.-4 Hear, hear.) When they brought in Bills for
the observance of the Sabbath, and the prevention of cab nui-
sances, and other measures, would they not consider the pre-
sent subject, which was of far more importance ?
Mr. G 0 ULBU RN felt it his duty to vote for the previous
question, not from any disinclination to afford the Irish poor
relief, but because he did not feel himself competent, like
many others, to come to any resolution that would assess the
property of the Irish landlords. If Irish property were to be
thus taxed it should not be done by a resolution of the House,
for the question was of too grave a nature to be decided by 'a
resolution. It was better that some positive legislative enact-
ment should be introduced, when every Member could give
his opinion on all the parts of the proposed measure, than thus
prejudice the question, and pledge the House to a resolution.
It would, he maintained, be most inconsistent in the House to
come to the proposed resolution, when the subject to which it
referred to was-undergoing the inquiry of a Commiss'on. The
House had during the last Session determined upon appoint-
ing a Commission to examine minutely and accurately into all
the details of the question, and unless they were prepared to
say that the whole labours of that Commission should be
thrown aside, they could not entertain the proposition of the
Hon. Member for Clare. It was admitted on all hands that
the inquiry had 'been well conducted, and that the report would
bring the
,whole bearings of the case well before the House,
and under such circumstances could there be a doubt as to the
expediency of their waiting until it was before them ? There
was reason to expect that very little further delay would inter-
vene, for he was informed by the Commissioners, that with
respect to one branch of the inquiry all the evidence had been
collected and was already in the course of printing, and that,
within a few days, they expected to conclude their inquiry as to
the other branch.. In conclusion, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman expressed a hope that the Hen. Member who intro-
, duced the motion would consent to its postponement until he
saw what might be the decision of Government upon the ge-
neral question, to which decision they could not come until
the report of the Committee was before them. •
Mr. ROCHE trusted the Hon. Member for Clare would
act upon the advice of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and post-
pone his motion until the result of the inquiry, then drawing
to a conclusion,' was made known.
Mr. RICHARDS said that if the motion was pressed to a
division he would vote in its' favour, but as he agreed that
pending the inquiry by Commission it was premature to bring
the question before the House, he thought the best plan would
be to postpone its consideraticin.until the intentions of Govern-
ment on the subject were made known.
Mr. S HEIL suggested that as the word " helpless" in-
cluded young children, it would be as well to omit it, and con-
. fine the resolution to persons incapable of obtaining a liveli-
hood in consequence of malady or old age.
•Mis HUME was decidedly opposed to the extension of
Poor Laws to Ireland under any shape, and would, there-
fore, oppose tthe present or any future motion having that
• measure for its object, no matter in what quarter it might
originate.
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I shall abstain from entering into, or
endeavouring to confute, the arguments of those Hon. Gen-
tlemen who have expressed their objection to all Poor Laws—
who are rather willing to leave the industriously-inclined poor
to their own chance of applying their exertions, than to the
more practicable plan of establishing a system of relief. But,
before
Hon. Gentlemen must be aware that the question really
the House is, whether they would agree to the resolu-
tion now before them in its present shape, or whether they
, would defer any specific resolution until they had some of those
, -- pniliculars before them that would enable them to come to a
Icorrect conclusion. Whether, in fact, with all the ae-
,..,t'^`, - etun4ed evils and inveterate abuses of the English Poor
its,...
,';,.l,..fair •qtey would transfer , that system to Ireland. Such a
'•-s7 ' poi* , I should think, must at once be negatived. I should
'sir* ino • 0.1 ~y to see the Act of Elizabeth extended to
(
. • Ireland, accompanied with well-founded practicable provisions
- known Id . against K existing abuses. But the proposition before
.
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