The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-13 00:00:00

iition of the defects in her education, you think else is
,-inpetent to the ordinary affairs of life ?
Witness—l do.
Mr. POLLOCK—Do you think her present disabilities
uld be removed by education ?
Witness—l am persuaded of it.
Mr. POLLOCK—How long would it take to render her fit?
Witness—That would depend upon the person tutoring,
a-ul the manner in which the tuition was exercised.
Mr. POLLOCK —How often have you given evidence
iofors Commissioners of Lunacy ?
Witness—l cannot tell.
Mr. POLLOCK—Have you no notion ?
Witness—Notion is something that is known, and I do
not know, and c innot tell.—(Laughter.)
Mr. POLLOCK— Have you any idea?
Witness—ldea is visible perception, and I do not recol-
ket it.
Mr. POLLOCK—Have you no belief?
Witness—l cannot say I have any belief of that which
I do not recollect.
The witness, on being pressed, said, that he thought he
Lail been examined on about twenty commissions, but he
could not swear positively to more. I did not tell Miss
Bagster she might be taken to a roadhouse. I never men-
tioned a madhouse to her. I did not go there to puzzle
her, though I could do that and puzzle many others be-
side.—(Laughter.) I think she is competent, judeing
from her present acquirements, learned under such disad-
vantages, to learn much more. The disadvantages I speak
of are,—first, the illness she suffered ; secondly, because
her grandfather kept her from school ; thirdly, because he
would not let her be " snubbed ;" and fourthly, and
lastly, because she was not allowed the materials—money,
which is the great source of arithmetic—to learn it.
Mr. Por.Locx—When you went to visit Miss Bagster.
did you make any attempt to teach her?
Witness—No, Sir. lam not a schoolmaster. I did
not go to teach, but to learn the state of her mind.—
(Loud laughter.)
Mr. POLLOCK—But when she told you that she had for-
merly known the multiplication table pretty well, did you
not ask her any questions about it?
Witness—No, Sir.
Mr. Pou.ocK—Why did you not, Sir?
Witness—Because I did not go there to cross-examine
Lee, but to examine her io chief.—(lmmense lanehter.)
Mr. Por.Locx—l wish, Dr. Haslam, you would answer
my questions directly, and then you may ramble as you
like afterwards.
Witness—l am not much inclined to ramble. I am
pretty well fixed here as present.—(Continued laughter.)
Re-examined by Mr. FOLLETT—I have written several
books upon insanity, and upon the powers of the mind in
the morbid state. Idiocy is well marked in the counts,
nance of every idiot ;it speaks for itself. There is no
such expression in the countenance of this young lady. A
great symptom of idiocy is ignorance of the fact of its
existence.

Mr. COLTMAN-What was your object in making the
statement you did to the young lady, with reference to this
inquiry ?
Witness—Supposing she was told that her examina-
'ion before the jury was a mere matter of farce, and that
deception was practised upon her, so that she might ap-
pear as lively and volatile as she plea,ed before the jury .;
And supposing she might be so kidnapped before the solemn
tribunal before which she had to appear, I felt it my duty
as a man anti a citizen, and for the honour of the pro-
fession to which I belong, not to allow her to be brought
into a situation which she did not understand. (A slight
inclination in the auditory to applaud was manifested on
the conclusion of this sentence, which was immediately
suppressed.)
Mr. Commissioner Winntwastr—You did not know
that any deception had been practised.
Witness—l did not know of any, but I supposed so,
because she deceived me about her marriage by saying it
was not a marriage, and I felt convinced she had been tu-
tored to say so, and that the remark did not emanate from
her own mind.
Mr. WHITMASII-Had you any object besides that you
have stated ?
Witness—None whatever. I made it in accordance
with my own wish, and not with any view to get any
statement from her. She, however, had mind enough
to feel and comprehend her situation, and well to under-
stand it.
In answer to further questions by Mr. Commissioner
WHITMARSII, the witness said the term unsoundness of
of mind, as understood in this country, was unknown in
France, Italy, or Germany ; and though the Germans
were the greatest writers on insanity, yet they were igno•
rant of unsoundness of mind, independent of either lunacy

or idiocy.
Mr. Bowling was then recalled, and examined by the
CHIEF COMMISSIONER, at the instance of some of the
Jury ; but his evidence was of that delicate character,
with reference to the statement to the witness by Miss
Bagster of the transaction in the carriage, that it is im-
possible we could even allude to its outlines.
Captain Kelly recalled and examined by the Curer
COMMISSIONER -.4 am desired to ask you, Captain Kelly,
whether previous to the communication made to you by
this young lady, you put any question to her, as to what
had passed between Mr Newton and herself.
Witness (emphatically)—l most solemnly avow under
the strongest obligation that man can be bound by, that
I put no question to her directly or indirectly, and I as
solemnly declare—that the communication quite as much
surprised me as it did the Court when I narrated it.
Mr. COLTMAN—Did you make any reply?
Witness—None whatever. I felt so much astonished,
that I almost lost the power of utterance.
By a Juror—l beg to ask, (lid you attempt b stop the
young lady in the communication she made to you ?
Witness—J did not.
Juror—Did you reprove her ?
Witness—Not in the least.
Juror—Now, Sir, I ask you whether you think it was
consistent with your character as a gentleman, and the
honour of an officer in the navy, not to have endeavoured
to check her in making the communication, or to reprove
her for it afterwards?
Witness—l most certainly did not consider that was
my province. I had nothing whatever to do with the
young lady, and it is with great reluctance that I was
brought before the Court on this occasion.
The examination having concluded,
Captain Kelly said, that he understood that some
asperities had been used in the course of animadverting on
his evidence.
The CHIEF COMMUSIONER. said, that there did not
appear any necessity for Captain Kelly to vindicate his
character from any thing that had occurred in this trans-

action.
Captain Kelly then bowed to the Court and withdrew.
Mr. Christopher Wilson was then called, and exa-
mined by the CHIEF COMMISSIONER—I accompanied
Mr. Newton and Miss Bagater to Gretna-green. I tra-
velled on the rumble, at the back of the carriage, all the
way. We stopped for breakfast at Doncaster, and Miss
Bagster went up stairs there to adjust her dress ; the
chambermaid accompanied her. We stayed at Doncaster
twenty-five minutes, and then proceeded immediately to
Springfield, and afterwards returned to Carlisle, from
which place, on the following day, Mrs. Newton, or Miss
Bagster, whichever I must call her, wrote a letter to her
mother. She referred to me to know what she could say
to pacify her mamma. I said a very few lines was neces-
sary, for the least said would be soonest mended. I then
-ook a piece of paper, and sketched down, to the best of
my recollection, a few words, begging forgiveness for the
step she had taken.
The letter (which was written in a good bold hand)
was then put in and re rd, by the Under-Sheriff. It bore
the Carlisle post mark, and was directed to " Mrs.
Baxter, Warwick-square, Newgate-street, London," and
ran as follows :
"My dearest Marna,—l hardly know how to write to you
after what has taken place, indeed lam so agitated at the
thoughts of having so offended you, that I can scarcely hold a
pen. Fray, pray, intercede with my guardians, and send me a
letter addressed to the Post-office, Liverpool. Raymond has
written to his mama entreating her forgiveness, which I again
entreat you to grant your affectionate daughter,
" April " ROSA."
The witness proceeded.—On our arriving at Spring-
field, we drove to the post-house there. I got from be-
hind the carriage to see the person who was to perform
the ceremony. After the certificate was signed the cere-
mony was gone into, and the party who married them, I
think, first asked, " Are you both single?" and next, "Do
you come here of your own free will and consent ?" She
replied in the affirmative to both. The form was some-
thing like that of the church of England, and there was
something about " love and cherish," but I cannot recol-
lect the exact words.
By a Juror—Was there any violence used when :Hiss
Bagater was taken away from you and Mr. Newton ?
Witness—Yes; on entering the room the too police
,rfficere intercepted Mr. Newton and myself, and pushed us
un one side. Miss Bagger did not cry out, but she looked.
as if she was thunderstruck. I did not hear her say any
rising.
By the CHIEF Coaturssioxica—l remember our turn-
ing back at Altonbury-hill. We came back about .ight
tr nine miles. When we arrived at Altonbury-hill, M .
Newton got out of the carriage, aryl said, " Rosa s ems
exceedingly unhappy at having left her mother ; I would
• be the last Inas in the world that would take her sway