The Sun.
London, England, 1832-01-20 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNAL S

Mr. Stanley introduced last night into the
House of Commons the Bill for Reform in the
constituency and representation of Ireland.
Though the relative proportion of Members to
sit in the united Parliament from the three great
divisions of the empire might have been main-
tained as fixed by treaties, " the sister island is
allowed, by the new arrrangement, five new Mem-
bers, we shall not say at the expence of England,
but certainly in diminution of its former repre-
sentation. This concession does not, however,
satisfy the Irish Members, who, having been '
offered five additional representatives, now de-
mand five and twenty. Ireland, it is alleged,
contains nearly 8,000,000 of inhabitants, and
therefore ought to be represented in the United
Parliament by more than 100 Members. But
if population were to be the measure of Par-
liamentary delegation, Ireland ought to send
not only 125 Members, but 225 across the
Channel. Possessing a third part of the popu-
lation of the United Kingdom, which by the
late census amounts to more than 24,000,000,
it ought to have a third share in the representa-
tion. Is this amount claimed P—or rather is it
not at once abandoned, in order to proportion
its number of Members more nearly to the ex-
tent of the resources which it brings to the
general stock of the empire, or to the relative
share which it bears of the public burdens ? In
this latter respect the just shale of Ireland in the
general representation would sink as much below
its present number of one hundred Members, as
a regard to its population alone would raise it
above that number. We shall at present say
nothing about the natural resources or physical
capabilities of Ireland, if governed on a different
system ; but we just state what it brings to the
common treasury, the best test of immediate
use to England, and its relative addition to the
strei gth of the empire. Ireland, then, be it
known, does not contribute to the revenue of the
United Kingdom four millions (as stated by
Sir H. Parnell, only 3,800,000/0, out of the
50,000,000/. which is raised on the people of
the United Kingdom. Thus, while its repre-
sentation is at present somewhat more than a
sixth, its taxes are not a twelfth part of the re-
venue of the empire ; while its population is a
third, its contributions to the State are not a
twelfth. We shall revert to the subject to-mor-
row. The Scotch Reform Bill was brought in
and read a first time, after a few short speeches,
which, however, presented no remarkable topic;
but in the discussion both on the Irish and
Scotch Bills, it is evident that the English and
Scotch Anti-Reformers intend to combine with
the Irish Reformers in opposing the Reform
Bill for Ireland. Will the Irish Members walk
with open eyes into so manifest a snare ?—Tiriaes.
We thought we had so fully explained the in-
crease of the Peerage which is to take place, that
the most perverse captiousness could unravel no
thread of our statement to hang a hope upon.
The King then, we will again publish in the most
explicit terms, is most anxious to make, and will
most undoubtedly make, a sufficient number of
new Peers to ensure the success of the Reform
Bill in the Upper House. If this fact can be
made known in any clearer expressions than those
which we have used, we will thank the enemies of
the measure to impart them to us, and in those
expressions we will repeat our assertion. Why,
then, it is asked, are not the Peers made
Why should they be made (we reply) before
the time? We see many reasons why they
should not be prematurely made, but none why
they should. Ministers are desirous of cer-
tainty on the point how many will be neces-
sary ; and that this is no easy point to ascer-
tain with respect to the members of an assembly
who cannot be interrogated like children at their
catechism, or witnesses at the bar, is but too
obvious from the experience of last Session.
"Many do not now know how they will vote :
others are not certain whether they shall vote at
all, or absent themselves. How, then, can the
numbers of pros and cons be yet calculated with
certainty ? Ministers, from delicacy to the
House, are desirous not to flood it with un-
necessary Members, though every new creation
will perhaps elevate a man of as estimable a
character as any already in the House : but they
are equally determined net to suffer the measure
to fail from an insufficient creation of Peers.
They merely wait, therefore, till they can pro-
portion with exactness the force to be employed
to the resistance to be overcome ; and the
knowledge of this fact, which may be assumed
as such with the fullest conviction, may, we
should hope, tend to weaken the opposition by
showing its uselessness.—Times.

The Reform Bill for Ireland was introduced
last night by Mr. Stanley, with a speech cha-
racterised by the same power of reasoning and
expression which has hitherto di-tinguished the
Parliamentary efforts of that gentleman. It was
already known that in Ireland considerable dis-
satisfaction was felt respecting the proportion, or
rather the disproportion, of additional represen-
tatives, as compared with the number allowed to
England under the new measure. Mr. Stanley
exhibited great ingenuity in the attempt to get
over this difficulty ; but, however his reasoning
may be estimated by others, it did not afford sa-
tisfaction to the Irish Members, who, one and
all, protested against the arrangement as partial
and unjust. After many of them had delivered
their sentiments in opposition to this provision
of the Bill, Sir Robert Inglis declared himself
" unwilling to interrupt the harmony in which all
the Members for Ireland who had yet spoken—
however adverse their general political opinions—
had joined to find fault with the measure which
was then under their consideration." Sir Robert
has an excellent ear for music—he delights in
an Irish concert, and here he had it to his heart's
content, for no sooner had the Right Honour-
able Secretary sounded his key, than the whole
orchestra from Dublin struck up a tune of such
s, dulcet discord" as must have enchanted every
Anti- Reformer. Thelrish Members had all agreed
to differ from the Minister, and lik e men of ho-
nour, and, as Sir Robertlngliswds insinßuated, like
musicians, they kept their words
Sir Robert was so highly pleased' w i
with
the Irish
Members, he did not seem to have given them
the same satisfaction upon his part. On the
contrary, he was handled somewhat roughly by
Mr. Sheil, who raised a laugh at his expense,
and showed with what perfect ignorance of Irish
affairs the Hon. Baronet was prepared to legis-
late for that country. Mr. Croke% and the other
Anti-Reformers, took advantage, as might be
expected, of the harmony of the Irish Members
to denounce the Bill. The Irish Members were
ail right; they had never been so right before.
Their demand for additional Members was quite
reasonable and proper. Why ? Not because
it was desirable that Ireland, Scotland, or Eng-
land, or any part of either country, should have
more Members than at present, but because it
was desirable that they should ask for something
which might by possibility prevent them from

getting any thing. Such was the line of argu-
ment adopted by the Anti-Reformers. But will
the Reformers shut their eyes to the absurdity
which they commit in forming a coalition of this
nature against the general measure to which the
whole country is looking forward with anxiety
We can scarcely think they will persist in such a
measure. The Scotch Reform Bill was after-
wards introduced by the Lord Advocate, and
underwent a severe criticism also. The general
tone of the debate, however, upon both mea-
sures, was far more temperate than we were ac-
customed to the Session before. 1 his was a
gratifying feature in the discussion. Perhaps a
few more conversations will bring the different
parties to a better understanding, and prevent
those strange coalitions from taking place which
are more anomalous in their character than any
thing that has yet been charged against even this
much-abused Bill.—Morning Herald.

The Irish and Scotch Reform Bills were
brought in last night. Mr. Stanley, in intro-
ducing the Irish measure to the House, had a
fling at the agitators. The excitement which they
had caused was, he said, " additional difficulty
thrown in their way by those who had promoted
commotion, and occasioned commotion through-
out the land—(Hear, hear.)—by men professing
good-will towards the cause of Reform, and
who had industriously contrived, at every step,
to throw the most serious obstacles in the way of
Reform.—(Cheers.) But, notwithstanding this
strong reason for abstaining from change, he said
that it; in reason and justice, and not because of,
but in spite of, the agitation which prevailed,
they considered the measure would be adviseable,
they should not hesitate nor refuse to act fairly
towards Ireland." The proportion of Members
for Ireland and Scotland is to remain the same
as in the last Bill. In the counties, instead of
a twenty years' lease, fourteen years are taken ;
and instead of taking rent as a criterion, the
beneficial interest is to be taken. Mr. Stanley
stated several particulars regarding the hands
into which the franchise was likely to go :

" It appeared," he said, "by returns respecting the
constituency of the counties, published in 1830, that the
whole body of Irish freeholders, as contemplated by the
Bill, amounting to 53,152, of whom 22,000 were regis-
tered as 501. freeholders ; 10,000 as 201. freeholders ;
leaving of the lowest class (those of only 101.) little more
than 20,000! And this he thought might also tend to
satisfy those gentlemen who were terrified at the idea of
a Catholic constituency, and who apprehended that the
Protestant institutions and establishments would be over-

turned by the change they proposed to make i❑ the repre-
s,ntati,,n. But let them only consider that in Catholic
Munster, out of 15,382 freeholders there were 7,382 fifty-
pound freeholders, 3,113 twenty•pound freeholders, and
only 3,9( 0 ten-pound freeholders. While in Protestant
Ulster, where the lower clas,es were, with few exceptions,
Protestant, out of a total of 15,658 freeholder•, 8,535
were ten-pound freelidders. Therefore, when the ma's
of the population was Protestant, there was a majority of
ten-pound freeholders ; and where the mass of the property
was Protestant, and the population Catholic, there was a
vast majority of fifty-pound and twenty pound freeholders
to overbalance the Catholic ten-pound voters."
There is to be no disfranchisement of bo•
roughs, as there were, properly speaking, no
boroughs like Gatton and Old Sarum in Ire-
land. The remedy was to extend the franchise
in the existing boroughs

" In England the right of voting was to be extended
to all lona fide ten-pound householders ; in Ireland there
would be some difficulty in ascertaining this point. He
did not think it would be unreasonable to propose, that in
the great towns where there were local taxes, such as for
paving, lighting, &c., the individual should be obliged to
show be had paid them up within the last half year before
he should be privileged to exercise the franchise. He did
not speak of church, cess, or Ministers' money, which
might be liable to objection. In the counties of cities
and the counties of towns, which, in addition to the be-
rough, comprehended an agricultural district, he resolved
to propose the combined right of the ten pound house-
holder in the towns, and the freeholder and leaseholder in
the country, which he intended to add to the ten-pound
voter of the town, and this without depriving him of his
vote for the county at large, thus retaining for him the
double vote—that for the county and that for the town—
which he enjoyed before."
With respect to freemen, however, they are
not to be perpetuated. He proposed to retain
actual and inchoate rights, but not to continue
them. In Ireland freemen were an objectionable
class of voters. They were made merely because
they were Protestants, and to exclude the Ca-
tholics. Mr. Leader contended that Ireland
ought in fairness, estimating her :importance
compared with England, to have 161 Members;
and he contended that it would be the highest
injustice to meddle with Old Sarum in Eng-
land, if they abstained from destroying the six-
teen or eighteen equally rotten boroughs in Ire-
land. Mr. Huthven also contended for the des-

traction of the Irish rotten boroughs, and in-
sisted that Ireland ought to have thirty-two ad-
ditional Members instead of five. Mr. Croker,
of course, endeavoured to fan the discontent and

jealousy of the Irish Members. " In his opi-
nion it behoved every Scotch and every Irish
Member, before he consented to disfranchise a
single English borough, or to enfranchise a single
English town, or to divide a single English
county, distinctly to understand that satisfactory
justice would be done to Scotland and Ireland."
A very pretty quarrel if well managed. Lord
Aithorp, in proof of the improvement of Ire-
land, observed, that while the excise of England
had diminished, that of Ireland had increased.
The Lord-Advocate, in proposing the Scotch
Bill, said that in principle there was no difference
whatever between the last and the present, nor
was there any material alteration in the details.
In the former Bill, Port Glasgow had been
united to Greenock ; it was now intended that
it should be separated. There was no difference
in the franchise, with regard to counties, only so
much alteration with regard to boroughs as to
render the measure in some degree conformable
to that of England. The Scotch Members were
equally loud with the Irish in their demands for
more Members.—Morning Chronicle.
The Reform Bill comes before the Committee
this evening, and general attention will be again
directed towards that first and most important
clause, the injustice and tyranny of which was so
ably exposed by the conservative party last Ses-
sion. The proposed system of disfranchisement,
which seems so very palatable to the Radical part
of the community, is not only founded on gross
injustice, but is also pregnant with certain and
incalculable mischief. Through those boroughs
which at one fell swoop our Reforming Mi-
nisters would consign to destruction have
found their way into the House of Com-
mons men whose talents have been an ho-
nour to their kind, and whose names are
interwoven with the brightest periods of the
history of our country. Under the new Con-
stitution, however, there will be but one road to
.he House of Commons
eligible for the Senate unless
whim haendwiclllip)rliec(eigeofthe
people, however absurd, and him-
self to support every
unless he
e possesses
sufficient nerve to brave the st'''.
wealth
,
hustings. It will exclude the popular
and talent from the Legislature ; ttl e o
doorsf
l of
massmo
the I louse of Commons will be
against all who will not debase themselvescose
by imitating the present Ministry in the culti-

ration of low popularity ; all who cannot face '
popular assemblies, however splendid their ac-
quirements, however extensive their knowledge,
however great their interest in the country, w ill
be debarred from contributing to the welfare of
the State by their wisdom and advice. In short,
talent and property will be deprived of its just
influence, and the natural consequence must
soon: follow—the abolition of property itself.
The tendency of the Ministerial measure is to
shake all that is stable, to desecrate all that is
holy, and to prostrate all that is venerable and
great. It is opening the flood-gates of demo-
cracy, the mighty and irresistible torrent of which
threatens, if unchecked, to sweep away the altar
and the throne.—Morning Post.

It is now confidently reported that the
Bishops, we mean the Anti• Reforming Bishops,
do not mean either to attend the discussions in
the House of Lords on the Reform Bill, or to
vote on any of the readings. We should be
glad to have better authority, than mere report,
for the fact stated ; and there can he no doubt
that both his Majesty and his Majesty's Mi-
nisters would also be much satisfied with evi-
dence to the same effect on which they could
rely. We have reason to believe, however, that
although something like a determination to the
effect mentioned has been adopted by the bench
of Bishops, neither the one or the other have
the slightest intention of relying upon it, and
that the new creation of Peers will take place
without taking the matter into account. This is
the best policy. The King and his Ministers
have been deceived once ; and assuredly, with
the means at their command of preventing a se-
cond deception, they would be inexcusable were
it even barely possible to inflict such an injustice
upon them.—ilforning Advertiser.

COURT OF COMMON COUNCIL.

Yesterday a Court was held. As there were
many new members, during the discussion there was
not quite so much order or regulariry as usually
marks deliberative assemblies.
TILE STANDING ORDER AGAINST BANKRUPTS, COM-