The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-CVESTERDAY).
The LORD CHANCELLOR. took his seat on the woolsack
At BVe•o'clock.

NEW PEERS.
Lord IaVEDBIS (late Mr. Vernon Smith) took the oaths
and his seat as a peer of the realm.
Lord Lidozovmit. (late Sir Benjamin Hall) also took the
oaths and his seat as a peer of the realm.
PETITIONS.
The Earl of STANHOPE: presented a petition from
Aberdeenshire, praying that Marischal College maybe pre-
served as a separate institution.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition from
Derbyshire, praying for the Omission of the Bible into
the Government schools in India.
PETTY SESSIONAL DIVISION BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the Border
Counties Railway Bill was read a second time.
THIRD READINGS.
The following bills were read a third time and
passed : Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire
Railway (Station at Manchester), South Wales
Pembroke and Tenby Junction Railway, Tyne Im-
provement, Kingston-upon-Thames Gas, North-Eastern
Railway (Kidd Valley branch), London and North-Western
Railway, Edgehill to Garston), Great North of Scotland
Railway, and Reading and Hatfield Railway.

DIVORCE COURT.
Lord BROUGHAM moved that the return No. 44 in
the minutes of the 9th of June, delivered on the 27th
of June, be printed. The noble and learned lord said it was
of importance that the exact amount of business:should
be ascertained ; as it was, the increased amount of busi-
ness that had been suddenly thrown upon the court arose
from the fact that until very recently the extent of the
powers it possessed had been altogether unknown. The
amount of judicial business rendered it absolutely necessary
to determine whether or not it was necessary to add to the
number of judges. It might be that the aid might
only be temporary, but it was of importance that the ques-
tion should be settled. In fifteen months, the period of the
establishment of the court, there had been no less than 285
petitions granted for dissolution of marriage, and 105 for
judicial separation, making in all nearly 400 cases in little
more than a year. Out of this number, 37 divorces had been
granted, but there were upwards of 140 cases waiting for
consideration. The rules and regulations of the court he
thought far from satisfactory, for as the procedure at pre-
sent existed the jury were very frequently deceived by the
collusion between the suitors. Suits were often brought
by arrrangements made by the husband, wife, and her
paramour, and he knew an instance in which the paramour
actually paid the expenses of the husband's application for
a divorce. In his opinion it was absolutely necessary that
the Attorney-General, or some other officer appointed by
th• Crown, should be present to watch all the cases on the
part of the public. The noble and learned lord said he
trusted that the noble and learned lord on the woolsack
would take the whole subject into his consideration, with a
view of devising a remedy for the evils that at present

existed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he felt pleased the
noble lord had brought the working of the Divorce
Court under the, consideration of the house. He
rseolentirely with him as to the great necessity
e inquiry being made into the working of the
court, what he proposed should be done as a means
of insuring the efficiency of the court was, that all
the puisne judges should be members of the court,
and that two of them, together with the Judge-Ordinary,
should sit in turns with the Lord Ordinary, for
the purpose of making full Courts, which would,
he thought, greatly facilitate the business, until some
definite arrangement could be made. There were
some very serious alterations he thought it would be
advisable to make, and he hoped in the course of a few
days to lay a bill upon the table which would remedy the
evils complained of.
After some remarks from Lord CRANwoirm, the return
was ordered.

CHURCH RATES.
The Duke of MARLBOROUGH rose to move for the
appointment of a select committee to inquire into the pre-
sent operation of the law and practice respecting the assess-
ment and the levy of church rates. He said that he had
been anxious on several occasions to bring this subject be-
fore the house, but he had been hitherto disappointed in
consequence of the various changes which had taken place,
and which had caused its postponement until a period of the
session when he regretted to think that the consideration
which their lordships would be able to give it could not be
so lengthened as its nature and importance demanded.
Yet there was no subject of deeper or greater importance.
He believed that it was held in some quarters that, inqui-
ries having taken place on the subject in the other house,
it had been so fully discussed and so much attention paid
to it that it was scarcely possible to eliminate any further
facts, and that inquiry would lead to no practical result.
But a few considerations which he should proceed to point
out would, he thought, show that there would still be some
advantage in inquiry. A committee of the House of Com-
mons which sat in 1851 did not represent the views of the
great body of persons who were interested in the Church of
England, for the composition of the committee and the
evidence taken before it were of a partial character. Twenty-

three witnesses were examined, Of whom 15 were strongly
opposed to church rates in principle and practice. Of that
15 nine were dissenters. Eight of the witnesses who were
opposed to church rates were barristers or lawyers who had
been engaged in church rate cases, and two were clergymen
of the Established Church in whose parishes there had been
church rate disputes, viz., the vicar of Halstead and the
incumbent of Melbourne, who only gave evidence as to the
unfortunate circumstances in which these parishes had been
placed. There were only six witnesses whose evidence
was important as regarded the state of the law, whose tes-
timony formed a useful digest, and was important in refe
rence to research ; but there was scarcely any witnesses
in the interest of the Church of England. He might,
therefore, ask for a committee which would represent in
a fair and impartial manner opinions as to the practical
working of church rates in the Established Church. When
the committee of 1851 was sitting, the question of church
rates occupied a very different position to that which it oc-
cupied now. Then unpleasant disputes on the subjects were
raging, and especially at Braintree, where the dispute was
caused in the first place by the churchwardens imposing a
rate in defiance of the wish of a majority of the vestry, and
by the vote of a minority. It was thought that when the
judicial decision of their lordships' house was declared to be
adverse to the minority, and that a rate could only be levied
by the vote of a majority, it would go far to settle the ques-
tion. In answer to questions put to a Mr. Pritchard, a
lawyer who had been engaged in church rate cases, and was
examined as a witness before the committee, he said that
the establishment of the principle of the acceptance or rejec-
tion of a rate by a majority of parishioners would be satisfac-
tory to the public mind, notwithstanding the fact that the
rate would be equally compulsory, whether imposed by a
majority: or a minority. The view generally taken was that
if it was declared that a rate could only be carried by a ma-
jority, that would be a satisfactory settlement of the ques-
tion. Their lordships' house decided that a rate must be
imposed by a majority, and the result, it was said, would
be perfectly satisfactory, and yet from that time to this the
efforts to obtain the abolition of church rates had been as
lressing and virulent as ever. It was important that their
ordships should have an opportunity of inquiring into the
working of the law in its new and altered form, of seeing
how the question worked in large parishes where church
rate contests had existed, and whether by the judicial deci-
sion of the house being put into practice, much of the op-
position to, and the grievances connectedwith, church rates
had been practically removed. Another rea,son why he thought ,
they should proceed in this matter was this, that in point of
privilege, it was not competent for their lordships to send a
bill touching taxation to the other house. Their lordships
were placed in this position, that unless they adopted the
mode which he recommended they could only discuss
the question in a barren manner, and with no results, as
theytmust either accept or reject any bill sent from the other
house. They all felt the inconvenience of year after year
rejecting bills sent from the other house. Those bills might
go further than many of their lordships thought it prudent
and politic to go, and yet might contain improvements in
the law which they might desire to pass ; but if they were
looked upon as money bills they could not be altered. If
they were money bills they must be either accepted or re-
jected. There /tare many points in the law of church rates
which required amendment, and there were also many
grievances connected with it. In the first place it would be
found that rates were voted for improper objects ; that ex-
penses were included in rates which had no business to be
included ; that many things of an expensive kind were pro-
vided for the service of the church out of the rates, and when
things were looked into it would be found that these mat-
ters formed grievances to many persons who were ready
to look ;on the church as a national establishment,
but were not inclined to vote rates for the provision of
what might be called luxuries. Then there was
"L'e expensive litigation often resorted to for the re-
eclvere of the rate—those things were all regarded as
,gri,b7;ances by the dissenters,
rates. t
to prejudice the
'bad against church rates. Again, the dissenters
complained that they contributed largely to their own
places of worship, and it was therefore unfair to call upon
them to c,onteente. to a form of worship from which they
conscientiously differed.
jection was increased ln many instances also, the ob -
and the harshunpopularity of the ministry
manner by the
while in other parishes, where .a.rich the rates were enforced ;
was 'narked by pradeneeere conduct of the minister
the
paid willingly. lee submitted conciliation, the rate was
profitably investigate all these that a committee might
ascer-
tain what were really grievaitffeesrent points, and
iir
grievances might be remedied consistently and hey! far_ those.
with the main-
tenance of the principle of chum
different times, he believed, been no fewer
distinct measures brought under There had at
_ than seven
the notice of Par-
liament for settling this question. one class
those measures proposed the rate on fixed - of
doing away with the voluntary principle, property, thus
important element in the existing law, unuldellr was en
which
the rate could only be laid by the voluntary act of
a majo-
rity of the vestry. If the rate were made in a comaa
charge fixed on the land, this principle, which he attached
great importance to, would be lost sight of. Another pro_
d
position was that the rate should be levied only on those
who constituted themselves into a church vestry, or upon
such as occupied pews or sittings in the church. The ob-
jection to that wasp that it would in effect proclaim that no
person was in communion with the Church until the vestry
was proved, and those people would be invited, de novo, to
put themselves into communion. At present the law dam
land looked upon every person as in communion with the
Church of England, and for that reason any subject of the
Queen could legally call upon the minister to perform cer-
tain duties and offices connected with the established re-
ligion ; and if they were to build up a system by which
those only should be called upon to contribute
to the funds for the support of the fabric of the church
who chose to burden members of the vestry, they would
be doing that which the Dissenters were aiming at, and
placing the Church of England upon an isolated and
sectarian footing, and all
who did not formally subscribe to
her communion would be exempt. The n*th regard to the
matter of pews, the principle of the church of England was
that the sittings should as be free, and the
adoption as possible
adoption of the princip • le that those who were either of the
vestry or who rented pews or sittings in the church were to
be regarded as of her communion, would be to involve in
great hardship and incovenience the poor, who looked to the
church as the common property of all the parish, and who
had believed they had the right of sitting there and enjoying
the ministrations of the church free of charge. Another plan
proposed was simple abolition, and he trusted never to see
the day when their lordships would sanction so serious an
infraction of the rights and privileges of the church as would
be comprised in any measure of that nature. A further
scheme proposed by Mr. Duncombe in 1840 was to exempt
dissenters upon their making a formal declaration that they
were dissenters and entertained conscientious objections to
the payment of a rate in support of the church. At the moment
it was thought by many persons that that would be a
satisfactory solution of the difficulty ; but it was afterwards
found that any exemption founded upon such conditions
must necessarily meet with a large amount of opposition.

The effect would be to cut off all who made the declaration
from all communion and connexion with the church;
whereas, as their lordships were aware, there were very
many people in almost every parish who, while declaring
that they in many respects dissented from the established
church, were not in the strict sense of the term dissenters,
but availed themselves of the ministrations of the church
in marriage, sickness, burial, and, perhaps, in occasional
attendance at the ordinary services. All these different
proposals were open to objection, and consequently failed;
but there was a large class of persons who would accept no
compromise, but demanded the complete and unconditional
surrender and abolition of church rates. That demand was
put forward by those persons avowedly as a blew aimed at
the existence of the established church, as a step towards
disuniting the church from the state, and taking pos-
session of those parochial endowments which
were now the property of the parochial clergy,
ago Mr. Bright, speaking neon the proposed ex-
Tmwpoear
eiyenogf dissenters, said that he would never consent that
dissenters, because they were dissenters, should give up their
claims to participate in the property of the Church, if it
should become aquestion hereafter what should be done with
the funds of the Church. These were the views of that hon.
gentleman and his friends, from which they had never
swerved ; and he mentioned it because it was right that their
lordships should know what were the motive and objects
that guided and actuated those who were the opponents of
church,.rates. In farther illustration of this point he would
call attention to the proceedings of the Liberation Society,
which was established with the avowed object of liberating
religion from State control. At the conference this year a
member moved to add to one of the resolutions an expression
of earnest hove that the executive committee would find it
practicable to Wing the great question of the separation of
Church and State before the legislature on an early day. This
was objected to by Mr. E. Miall, who said, " The only dif-
ference between my :friend and myself is, that he would
take the faggot and break it at once, but I think better to
break it stick by stick." Nr. Miall's object was not to dis-
cuss the question, but to tak,' the sticks, as he calledsttlAnsai
one by one and break them. aZ. nd what were those
First, the abolition of church ra,4es the secularis-
use of the churches for all sects ; a •tl'irlolth, the abolition
hag the endowed grammar-schools ; • seconasd, thecommon
'don of the Scottish
of university tests ; another, the aboh
of-grounds.
annuity tax; and another, the common use u
N rothootinadgvoocfathth:
olft was
achleaartitohnatothf echourbjeecht
roafttehsosweeswhtho.s:,
Establishedsociety
heaalluCheurd ch. The gentlemen who gOnip?sedththe
to had put forward a circular, whichey
had distributed in all the different parishes,. stating iltat they
had just issued auseful little manual showing any raoPayer
how to proceed in order to avoid paying church rates, and
adding that if the directions therein given were follaa'ed
it would be scarcely possible for any vestry to levy 11
rate under the existing state of the law. If their lord-
ships consented to to the appointment of this committee
all these facts would come Out, and their lordships would
be enabled to judge of the objects and motives of those by
whom the abolition was demanded, and by placing the ques-
tion in a true light before Parliament and the country, •
might facilitate the remedy of all real grievances without
interfering with the rights of the Church, and thus relieve a
vast amount of anxiety and restore confidence to the Church.
He might add that not more than 5 per cent. of all parishes
throughout the country objected to church-rates, and
£250,000 was still collected every year in MLitt form. Then
it was said that if church-rates were abolished, the means
for maintaining the fabric and providing for the services of
the Church would be provided for by voluntary contribu-
tions. Hitherto voluntary contributions had thee= given
in many parishes, though the law of church-rates existed ;
but let the law be abolished, and these voluntary contribu-
tions would diminish, and the means of supporting and
upholding the Church would most certainly fail. Again,
the amount raised in church-rates was no test of the
manner in which the principle was accepted and em bodied
throughout the country, In many parishesthe church rates
were of small amount, and the voluntary contributions w ere
the main reliance ; while in others the rate was the sole de-
pendence. But on this as on various other details eonnected
with the question such an investigation as he proposed would
be useful, and although the session was far advanced, he had
no doubt that during the comparatively short time that re-
mained information would be obtained that would be of the
highest value and importance in legislating for the settle-
ment of this long-agitated question, and that at all events
it would be found that one of the surest safeguards of our
hereditary monarchy was an established church. (Hear.)
Lord TEYNHAM, who spoke with his back tothe gal-
lery, and was in consequence very indistinctly heard, ex-
pressed himself earnestly anxious for theabolition.of church
rates, but declared himself decidedly in favour of the main-
na,nce of the national church. The noble duke had urged that
in only 5 per cent. of the parishes were church rates resisted,
but wasnot 5 per cent. quite of sufficient importance to call
for a legislative settlement ? He trusted theirlordships would
grant this committee, and that its labours would result in
an amicable settlement of this much vexed question.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY supported the com-
mittee. The subject was one of the greatest importance,
and there were many who opposed church rates who would,
if it were made clear to them how many important interests
their maintenance influenced, be most probably induced to
withdraw, or at least to relax, their opposition. Ile believed
that if this were made clear, they would never in we such a
bill presented as had been brought forward last s ession. In
his opinion the committee demanded by the i table duke
should be granted. The two principal objecti ens which
were urged against church rates might then be t horoughiy
examined. The first was the conscientious objection, and
the second the obligation resting upon the supporters of
chapels of ease also to support the mother church . The first
might perhaps be met in some conciliatory wary, and the
other could be investigated with a view to some Teasonable
arrangement. On all grounds he trusted that no opposition
would be offered to'the committee.
Lord PORTMAN felt the enormous importance of ob-
taining a speedy settlement of this question, and was the
more convinced of it by the speeches made in the various
hustings of the kingdom at the late election. Ho found
that many men who had formerly taken a moderate line were
then forced onwards, and did not venture to say a word about
maintaining the fabric of the church. He tr usted their
lordships would take note of these symptoms, and if possible
preserve themselves from a collision with the otl ier house of
Parliament. He trusted they would go into this committee
not in the spirit of antagonism which had been evinced by
the noble duke, but in the spirit of the most rev. prelate who
had just sat down, and if possible bring the :matter to a
peaceable and amicable result. The opposition to rates did
not so much arise from a dislike to maintain the fabric of the
church as to the many other purposes for which they were
levied, and to their being expended without cheek or audit.
He had been told by many influential nonconformists that
they were quite willing to contribute to the maintenance of
the fabric, and from other sources of information Inc believed
that they might obtain a rate for the fabric although not for
the services of the church. It was to him a subject of regret
that the most rev, prelate had held out a hope of settling this
question which was not subsequently fulfilled, as he believed
that if the right rev, bench could only settle on some reason-
able plan, it might ultimately lead to an. arrangement. He
had himself placed a bill on their lordships! table in fur-
therance of a pledge he had given in the past year, and he
hoped that some clauses at least in it might be found useful.
He hoped also that Mr. Walpole would, notwithstanding
his altered position, continue his attention to the subject, as
there was no man who had conceived a stronger attachment
to the Established Church, or who had a more thorough
knowledge of the subject. He should vote for tha commit-
tee, trusting that it wontd take all the points into its careful
consideration.
The Bishop of LONDON said the noble Lord had taunted
the right reverend bench with not having produced a mea-
sure on the subject of church rates ; but ho (the Bishop of
London) thought that, seeing the number of bills that had
been produced and rejected, there was very little encourage-
ment for the right rev. bench to interfere in the matter.
(Hear.) Even the noble lord's own bill would most proba-
bly not prove an exception to the general role. In his opi-
nion the right rev. bench had taken a much wiser course
in not undertaking the solution of the question, but in pray-
ing their lordships' house to grant this committee. There
were some points which had been urged in advocating the
abolition of church rates to which he wished to call atten-
tion. It was said that only one-third of the population be-
longed to the Established Church, but he could not find the
data upon which that assertion was founded. True, the
church accommodation extended to only one-third of the
people, but that fact byno means justified the conclusion as to
the religion of the population. Eighty-three par cent. of the
schools for the education of the poor were in connection with
the Church of England, and of the two millions of children
between the ages of 3 and 15 years who attended them, 78
per cent. were in connection with the Church. He found,
also, that of the marriages in England and Wales 84 per cent
of the whole number were solemnised in the Church of Eng-
land, 11 per cent. of the remainder in. Romish, Jewish, and
dissenting places of worship, and only 5 per cent. at the re-
ogistrar's
otuhrer
eddi sopnulyt e
os ,nue
ep oan
ywhicha
ns
do
omu mucht
gistrsetrsar's wsasoffilaceid., thAegy
to be looked upon rather as so many safety valves for the
parochial discontent. Disputes were common in all meetings
of Englishmen, but the decision lay with the majority, and
once given the discontent was soon forgotten. It appeared
extraordinary to him that because 500 parishes had voted
I against church rates they should be called upon to abolish
them in 11,000 in whichnoresistance had beennuade. Every
one seemed to be willing that the parochial system should be
preserved, but it was folly to expect to preserve that system
by means of the voluntary principle. They could not argue
from populous and wealthy districts that the voltintary prin-
ciple would maintain the churches in such plat.: es as Cum-
berland. As well might they infer from the erection of
that beautiful edifice in the west end of the metropolis,
which some persons said would cost £100,004), that the
voluntary principle would produce similar r ~salts in all
parts of the kingdom. He would most earnestly impress
upon their lordships the necessity of granting; this com-
mittee. There were a great many erroneous ideas to be
dispelled, a great many important opinions to ho obtained.
He wanted to know what were the opinions of Ole religious,
not the political dissenters of England, of tin me men who
thought there were great moral and asocial inte-
rests involved in the maintenance of an established
church. He believed there were thousands of Dissenters in
England who thought it would be a dark and niiserable day
for England if the established church were abolished; but
he know at the same time these were not the 1114 all who were
the most influential in returning members to Parliament.
(Hear, hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE did not see that much. advantage
could result from a committee, seeing that the subject had
already been exhausted in way of inquiry, but, seeing that
it had been recommended by the noble lord behind him, and
after the aeal which had come from the right rev, bench,
hmeigshhntulcodml u notpfeel justified in offering any oppoc ;Rion to the
motion. At the same time his consent must not be under-
stood as precluding him from considering any measure that
fromth
the other
ee Houseto. of Parlia t nent.
The motion was
- ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
EaniTsWerto the Duke of MARLBOROUGH,
GRANVILLE stated that no legislation on the
above subject was
adjournedeetitem contemplated 8
o
dduTinologkt.he pre cent session.
Their lordships

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YEsTEMDAy.)

The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCH:EQUEB'
Mr. Gladstone, introduced by Lord Harve y and Mr.
Foster, took the oaths and his seat, on his re• election for
the University of Oxford.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords' Amendments to the Great Weister n Railway
Bill, the Chichester Harbour Erabankment, and Swansea
Harbour Trust Bill, were considered and agveed to, and
ordered to be read a third time.

On the motion of Mr. C. FORSTER the fol 'lowing was
ordered :—That the minutes of evidence takes 1 befoie the
committee on the Durham and Cleveland Union Railway
Bill, in session 1858, be referred to the committee on the
Cleveland Railway Bill.
BLACKBURN AND
BRIDGE BILL. TN
'ROAD' AND

Colonel PENNANT moved that the order .that the
Blackburn and Preston Road and Bridge Bill do . lie upon
the table, be read and discharged; that the bill be.. referred

to the committee on Group B, with leave to sit and proceed
thereupon to •morrow.—Agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. RIDLEY, the following was
ordered :—That it be an instruction to the committtee on
group 4 of railway bills, that they have leave to consolidate
into two bills, in such manner as they shall think desir-
able, all or any of the provisions of the Midland Railwayßill,
the London and North Western Railway (Arrangement)
Bill, the Burton upon Trent Railway Bill, and the Burton
upon Trent Bridge Bill.
MR. CHISHOLM ANSTEY:
Mr. E. JAMES presented a petition from the inhabi-
tants of Newcastle-on-Tyne, praying for an inquiry into the
circumstances connected with the dismissal of Mr. C.
Anstey, at Hong Kong. The hon. gentleman also gave
notice that on the 12th inst. he would move for the produc-
tion of all the papers relative to this subject.
SALE OF SLAVES AT BRAZIL.
Mr. GRIFFITHS asked whether the British Consul at
Rio had exercised his authority to prevent a certain con-
tract for the sale of slaves in Brazil, by the directors of a
British Mining Company in that country, to one
Santos, from being carried into effect, although
such sale professed to be under the sanction of a British
court of law ; and whether it was the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to support him in that course?
Lord J. RUSSELL said there was some misapprehen-
sion on the present subject. In 1827 her Majesty's consul at
Rio applied to the Government for information whether such
transactions as that alluded to were legal, and the law offi-
cers of the Crown replied that by a recent statute, owners
could sell the slaves on their estates, but could not sell
their children. This information had been forwarded
to her Majesty's Minister at Brazil, and by him
communicated to the parties inte;ested. There could be no
objection to the
Ecourse proposed by the hon. member.
AT INDIA LOANS.
Col. SYKES moved for an address fora return of all loans
and repayments of debts at the several Presidencies in In-
dia, and in England, annually, from the year 1800 to the
latest dates inclusive—specifying the rates of interest at
which the several loans were contracted, with the annual
gross revenue of each Presidency, and total annual revenue
of British India from all sources ; with a column showing
the annual per-tentage pressure of the interest of the debts
in relation to the gross revenue.
SAVINGS BANKS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in answer
to Capt. D. O'CoNNELL, said it was not intended this ses-
sion to introduce any bill for the better regulation of sav-

ings banks.

INDIAN FINANCE.
Mr. BRIGHT asked the Secretary for India whether it
was intended to make any statement relative to the subject
of Indian finance previous to the prorogation of Parliament,
and whether he could fix a day for making such statement?
Sir C. WOOD said he would make such statement
prior to the prorogation of Parliament, but he could not
state exactly what it would be or when he would be in a
position to make it.
Mr. BRIGHT then gave notice that he would bring the
subject forward in the course of a few days, in order that a
matter of such importance should be considered before the
' attendance of hon. members was reduced.
Sir C. WOOD said he would bring the question forward
shortly, but until he obtained some additional information
to that be already possessed he would not be in a position
to do so.
THE OFFICE OF THE BOARD OF TRADE.

In reply to Sir S. NORTHCOTE
Mr. FITZROY said that directions had been given to
make some necessary alterations in the office of the Board
of Trade.
THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

In replytOSir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Mr. GLADSTONE said it was his desire to appoint as
early a day as possible for making his financial statement,
but it was not his intention to make a statement with re-
gard teany particular estimate apart from that in combina-
tion with the subject of the general expenditure of the
country.

ESTIMATES
The Civil Service estimates were laid on the table.
MANNING THE NAVY.
Lord CLARENCE PAGET said, in reply to a question
that had been asked on a previous evening, that it was the
intention of her Majesty's Government to introduce a bill
on the subject of maiming the navy.
NEW WRITS.
New wits were ordered respectively for Ashton-under-
Lyne, vacant by Mr. Milner Gibson's acceptance of Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade ; for Wolverhampton, vacant
bythe Hon. C. P. Villiers being appointed the Chief Com-
missioner of the Board of Works.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. E. JAMES asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether it was intended by her Majesty's Government to
introduce any bill to amend the representation of the people
in Parliament during the present session ?
Lord PALMERSTON said he could only repeat the
statement he had made the other evening, namely, that at
the present period of the session it was not intended by her
Majesty's Government to bring in any bill on the subject
until the next meeting of Parliament.
WORKHOUSES (ST. MARYLEBONE, &c.)
Mr. HANKEY moved a return showing the number of
in-door awl also of out-door poor (excepting lunatic paupers
in asylums) receiving relief on the Ist day of January and
the Ist day of July in the following years, viz., 1854, 1855,
1856, 1857, 1858, and 1859; also the total cost of
maintenance of in-door poor in each of the above
years, and the average cost per head; also the popula-
tion of each parish at the last census ; the number
which each workhouse is calculated to hold, according to
existing Poor Law regulations respecting space and venti-
lation ; and the total superficial space occupied by the
workhouse of the parish of St. Marylebone. Like return
for each of the parishes of Saint Pancras and Pad-
dington. Statement, whether the pauper children are
maintained and educated in the workhouses or elsewhere.
And, copy of a printed address from Mr. Farnall, Poor-law
Inspector, delivered on Friday, the 11th of July, 1857, to
the Directors of the Poor of Saint Marylebone, and of any
answer which may have been received thereto.
EAST INDIA (SALARIES, &c.)

Mr. VANSITTART moved an address for returns of
the salaries of the members of the Legislative Council for
Bengal, North Western Provinces, Madras, and Bombay;
of the salaries of the clerks employed in the said Council;
and of the expense of the house, offices, and printing in-
curred by the Legislative Council from the time of its
establishment to the present period.—Agreed to
POOR LAW BOARDBILL. S (PAYMENT OF DEBTS)

The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted.
LAW OF PROPERTY AND TRUSTEES RELIEF

AMENDMENT BILL.

This bill was also read a second time.
JURY TRIAL (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT
_ _

BILL.

This bill went through committee, and was ordered fo
third reading.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE, MIDDLESEX (ASSISTANT

JUIi(IE) BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. LOCKE KING moved as an amendment that it be
read a second time that clay six months.
After some discussion the amendment was withdrawn,
and the bill was read a second time.
DIPLOMATIC PENSIONS.
Mr. M. MILNES obtained leave to bring in a bill to
remove doubts as to the qualification of persons holding
diplomatic pensions to sit in Parliament.
THE THAMES.
Sir M. PETO moved for leave to bring in a bill to pro-
vide for the prevention of noisome effluvia from the River
Thames within the metrepolis. He said he did not meati
to impeach any blame to the metropolitan board, nor in any
way to shackle them in the discharge of their duties, and
he also proposed to give them additional powers if neces-
saryLo .rd J. MANNERS did not intend to oppose the intro-
duction of this measure, but he thought that its title was a
misnomer. Instead of a bill to "provide for the prevention
of noisome effluvia from the river Thames within the me-
tropolis," it appeared to him to be a'bill to require the Me-
tropolitan Board of Works to make a great many returns
which no on© would read. He must enter a caveat against
being supposed to patronise such legislation. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. V. SHELLEY expressed a hope that if the house
desired to have these expensive returns from the Metro-
poiitan Board of Works it would not throw upon the rate-
payers of the metropolis the cost of their preparation, and
protested against the Home Secretary being allowed to
exercise any authority over the proceedings of that Board.
Mr. TITE assured the house that the board had ample
powers, and they had also the strongest desire to take effi-
cient steps to remedy the gigantic evil with which they had
to contend. In order to show the feeling with which they
were animated, it would only be necessary for him to state
that last year, although they had not the powers which the
legislature subsequently conferred upon them, they spent no
less than £5,000 in lime for deodorising the sewers. A per-
manent cure could only be found is a great system of main
drainage • and from the progress which had already been
made he thought it probable that that system would be com-
pleted in three years instead of five. • (Hear, hear.) One-
large sewer was contracted for in February last, and one-
fifth of it was already made. That sewer, which would be
finished in June next, would drain the Hackney Brook dis-
trict, a source of enormous annoyance. Another very large
sewer on the other side of the river had just been contracted
for. With regard to the present state of the Thames, he
must remind the house that there were now discharged
into it 80,000,000 gallons of sewage water, which contained
600 tons of mud, or NO tons of solid matter. This sewage
was not only in a state of putrefaction itself, but it was a
cause of putrefaction to the mass into which it was poured.
The beard had appointed two of the most eminent chemists of
the day to experiment on the best mode of deodorising the
contents of the drains; and they had also appointed, since
May last, Dr. Miller (Professor of Chemistry in the Uni-
versity of London), to report to them daily on the state of
the river and of the great sewers. At the present moment
the board had no fewer than 30 stations at which they could
pour in lime water, which was all that in the present state
of their knowledge they could do. But Dr. Miller was en-
gaged in a series of experiments, in order to see if a better
disinfectant than lime could not be found for this temporary
use. Last week Dr. Miller suggested some other deodorising
agents, and the board were prepared to adopt those other
agents, even if they threw an additional expense upon the
ratepayers. (Hear, hear.) The board were sincerely anxious
to discharge the duty imposed upon themy and any inter-
ference by the legislature would tend rather to embarrass
than assist them. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ANGERSTEIN said a report was current that the
high level sewer was intended to discharge its contents into
Deptford Creek. He trusted that it was not intended to
sacrifice a considerable portion of the metropolitan district
in the way suggested.
Mr. M'CANN complained of the abominable stench
which on Sunday last was emitted from the opening at
Charing-cross through lime which was put into the sewer.
The smell rendered the rooms at Morley's Hotel almost
unbearable. (A laugh.)
Mr. RIDLEY said that a fetes hours after the rise of the
tide the effluvium from the river was so bad that the win-
dows had to be closed, and there was reason to apprehend
that pubic business would be seriously interrupted. If it
continued it must again endanger the health of hon. mem-
bers, as to his knowledge it had done last year.
Mr. CONINGHAM considered that the system which
had been adopted in the drainage of the metropolis was not
founded on right principles. He had no doubt that the use
of lime world prove a signal failure.
Mr. LOCKE (Southwark) was the only member who
last year objected io the measure proposed in a great hurry
by her Majesty's then advisers for the purpose of handing
over all responsibilityconneeted with the river to the Board
of Works. He was informed that the plan the Board of
Works had adopted was to divert the course of all streams
particularly offensive, and to make them run
iThames below bridge. It was, therefore, extremely
likely
that
whee r e
iltehtese operations would only increase the evil.
Mr. GRIFFITH said he had made inquiries as to the
smell complained of by the hon. member for Drogheda
(Mr. m‘cann) ; and he found from the men employed in
superintending the lime operations that it answered very
well so long as it was kept at work; but on Saturday they

left off pouring in the lime water. It appeared to him that
no plan of main drainage would answer unless the river
was also embanked. It was found that the smell was worst
when the tide began to disturb the mud banks ; a circum-
stance which showed that the removal of those banks was
even more required than new drains. (Hear,'hear.)
Alderman CUBITT said the Board of Works had been
proceeding with all possible despatch ever since they had
received their new powers ' • but it must be remembered
that those powers were not conferred upon them till late
last session, and that time was needed to prepare their plans.
All that was now required was a little patience ; for it was
impossible that great works like these could be carried out
in a few months. (Hear, hear.) He hoped, however, that
in three or four years the scheme would be completed, and
that the noxious .effiu.via of which they had now to com-
plain would be removed. He begged to state with refer-
ence to the high level sewer that it was never intended that
it should empty itself into Deptford Creek, The board had
merely taken Deptford Creek as a point to which it should
be constructed uutil proper machinery could be constructed
to convey the sewage lower. (Hear, hear.) As to the
smell at Charing-cross on Sund.ay, that had arisen from
the sewer having been accidentally left uncuvered.
The SPEAKER then put the motion that leave should
be given to bring in the bill, and the noes appeared to pre-
poitderate. The right hon. gentleman having put the ques-
tion a second time, and with the same result, declared that
the noes had it. Some amusement was caused by Sir M.
Peto rising to challenge his decision a few seconds after-
wards, when it was too late. The hon. gentleman had evi-
dently let the moment for demanding a division pass from
pure inadvertence.
PICTURE GALLERIES.
Mr. iCOWPER moved for an address for copies of all
letters and memorials addressed to the Committee of
Council on Education, or the Trustees of the National
Gallery, with reference to the admission of the public in
the evening to the Turner and Vernon Galleries of pictures
and of the answers thereto. He thought the public should
have the fullest opportunities of visiting these collections,
which unfortunately was not the case. They were now
being placed by the Trustees of the National Picture
Gallery in rooms in which no provision was made for the
admission of the public. He wished to call the atten-
tion of the house to this matter, in order that what was
necessary for the education and improvement of the people
might be done. The intention of the generous donors
should be carried out to the fullest extent. A picture gal-
lery to be seen to the greatest advantage seould be seen in
the evening, and that was the best time for the working
classes and for visitors to the metropolis. It was, therefore,
the duty of the trustees to open up these collectionsin the
evening. He did not know the motives of the trustees for
refusing this permission, but one reason was, that if they
opened these galleries they must also open the National
Gallery. He could not see the force of that reason. The
rule should be the freest access at all times. No danger
could arise from the use of gas, for the galleries could be
lighted from the roof in the same way in which that house
was lighted. (Hear, hear.) That would cause some addi-
tional expenditure, but he thought the house would give
any reasonable sum of money for that purpose for the benefit
of the public, and he trusted that when the papers were laid
on the table of the house the attention of the trustees would
be called to the manner in which they were discharging
their trust, and take a more extended view of their duty for
the benefit of the country at large.
The address was ageed to.
Mr. DUNLOP obtained leave to bring in a bill to afford
means for the more certain ascertainment of the law ad-
ministered in one part of her Majesty's dominions when
pleaded in the courts of another part thereof.
PUBLIC HEALTH.
Mr. LOWE obtained leave to bring in a bill to make
perpetual the Public Health Act (1858).
PRIVY COUNCIL ORDERS.
Mr. LOWE obtained leave to bring in a bill to provide
for the authentication of certain orders of the Privy Coun-
cil in the absence of the clerk of the council in ordinary,
having previously stated that it was not the intention of
her Majesty to fill up the clerkship of the Privy Council
rendered vacaMntILITA by thRY ORGANISATION. of Mr. Greville.
Mr. S. HERBERT moved for a select committee to in •
quire into the effects of the alterations in military organi-
sation regarding the War-office and Board of Ordnance
which were made in the year 1855 ; and also to inquire
whether any changes were required to secure the utmost
efficiency and economy in the administration of military
affairs.
The motion was agreed to.
Colonel DUNNE said he had given notice of his inten-
tion to move for a select committee, which was, to a great
extent, for the same purposes as those proposed by the right
hon. gentleman. His object was, however, principally to
inquire into the organisation of the civilian departments of
the War-office, which were at present very inefficient; but
he would not attempt to take the question out of the very
able hands of the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for
War, and he should, therefore, postpone his motion.
General PEEL said he could not agree with the descrip-
tion which his hon. and gallant friend had given of certain
departments of the War-office. On the contrary, they were
in the highest state of efficiency at the present moment, and
ready to peform any duty that might devolve upon them.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HORSMAN said he could see no hope of the in-
quiry being brought to a close during the short period which
still remained of the present session ; and, as a member,
of the former committee, he would appeal to his right hon.
friend whether, upon a question of such extent and import-
ance, they would not really gain time by postponing the
appointment of the committee until the beginning of next
session.
Captain JERVIS said that many alterations and im-
provements might be made, and, where necessary, byorder
in Council, without waiting for the report or the recom-
mendations of the select committee. Time would thus be
saved.
Mr. MONSELL concurred with his right hon. friend the
member for Stroud in thinking that it would be much better
to postpone the appointment of the committee until next
session. It was utterly impossible, in the short time before
them, that they could go fully into the many important
questions with which they would be engaged. In fact,
they would not be able to gat further than a mere prelimi-
nary statement of the organisation of the department, and
to have no time to take evidence, or to hear both sides of
the question. He urged his right hon. friend tcp postpone
the committee.
Mr. S. HERBERT said, in reply, that the very vastness
and importance of the subject constituted one strong reason
in his mind for going on with the inquiry at once. (Hear,
hear.) They might, though late in the season, have some
eight sittings of the committee ; and he was most anxious,
at the earliest moment, 'to have the defebts of the depart-
ment pointed out, as well as the most practical remedies for
these defects where they existed. He hoped, therefore, his
right hon. friends would withdraw their oppesltion.
Colonel LINDSAY thought it was much better to ap-
point the committee'at once ; but he trusted that in its for-
mation the right hon. gentleman would deal more fairly
with the military profession, and not place subh a prepon-
derance of civilians upon it, as there had been upon former
committees.
Mr. DISRAELI was of opinion that there were very
cogent reasons for postponing the appointment of this com-
mittee at the present moment. When the right hen, gen-
tleman was formerly in office he had introduced a great
many changes. His hon. and gallant friend the late Secre-
taryforWar (General Peel) had also made manyalterations,
and it would be in his opinion judicious to delay the ap-
pointment of the committee until next session, in order to
test the practical working of these changes. If the com-
mittee was now appointed, and held only a few sittings, say
seven or eight, as mentioned by the right hon. gentleman,
the result would be the publication of evidence on one side
only, and in an imperfect form, whereas if the committee
did not commence till next session, the inquiry could be
conducted more satisfactorily and more fully.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government had no de-
sire either to prejudge or unduly press this matter, but hav-
ing been himself a mamber of the late committee before the
dissolution, he could state that the committee had taken a
great deal of evidence, which it was very important should
be laid before the house, and if the committee were now re-
appointed and had a few sittings, the evidence taken by
them might also be presented, together with that previously
taken. The committee in the meantime need not inquire
into the alterations made by the right hon. and gallant
member opposite, which could be taken up when the inquiry
was resumed next session. He hoped the house would not
ose the remaining portion of the present session, or vir-
ually shelve an important question by postponing it.
The motion was then agreed to.
DIVORCE BILLS.

Mr. S. ESTCOURT, in the absence of Col. W. Patten,
moved the nomination of the select committee on Divorce
Bills :—Mr. Walpole, Mr: Sotheron Estcourt, Sir John
Pakington, Mr. Headiam, Mr. Bonham Carter, Mr. Mellor,
Mr. G. Clive, Mr. Adderley, Mr. Steel, and Mr. Hussey
Packe.
Mr. BOUVERIE said it was high time that Parliament
should do something in the matter, and for his own part he
gave the right hon. gentleman opposite warning that he
should strenuously oppose any legislation in that house with
respect to particular divorces.
After a few words from Mr. S. ESTCOURT,
Mr. M'CANN said there had been some talk among
members on both sides of the house, about extending the
Divorce Bill to Ireland. If the Irish members had thought
"such an intention existed, they would never have allowed it
to pass. (A. laugh.)
The motion was agreed to.
CONTRACTS (PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.)
Col. DUNNE moved for the appointment of a select
committee to inquire into the principle adopted for making
contracts for the public departments, and the effect which
the present system has upon the expenditure of public
money.
Mr. S. HERBERT asked if the hon. and gallant member
would define any limits to the inquiry. The first committee
was appointed in 1856, and some of its members had since
left- the house, not being returned by their constituents,
while others had gone to another world. The house
recommended a committee which had been appointed and
made no report; unless there was a definite limit, the in-
quiry would be protracted until it ended in nothing.
Col. DUNNE said he did not want any further extension
of the inquiry, but simply the gathering together of the
mass of evidence already taken: He wsuld not introduce
any new topics. As to the report o(the committee, he be-
lieved it would never be made, because it had to be founded
on the books at Weedon, and it was impossible to make
them up.
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. S. HERBERT brought up the supplementary army
estimates.
Mr. BRAND brought up the navy estimates.
The various bills for the introduction of which leave had
been given, were read a first time, and the house adjourned
at five minutes to seven o'clock.

We have much pleasure in stating that Lord
Palmerston has appointed Mr. Fleming, for many years
Assistant-Secretary of the Poor Law Board, to the office of
permanent Secretary, in the room of Lord Devon, resigned.
THE IRISII FISHERIES.—The Report onnriM
Fisheries for 1858 was published yesterday. The sea-coast
fishery does not, unfortunately, appear to be in that pro-
gressive state of general improvement which might he de-
sired. In some localities, 7here the means of transit by
steam are available, an activityin capture, and an increase
in business, are perceptible. The languid state of the Irish
fisheries is attributed in a great measure to the want of
curing establishments. In districts remote from railway
and steam-boat communication, there is no constant and
steady demand for sea-fish, and the safe depends on the
casual requirements of the neighbourhood, the vendors be-
ing at the mercy of the purchasers as far as price is con-
cerned. Some of the oyster fisheries, created under the
powers invested in the commissioners for granting licenses
to private parties to formartificial layings or beds, have
prospered, and it is anticipated that this success may stimu-
late others to embark in similar operations, more especially
as the supply of this description of food falls short of the
demand. The salmon fisheries present a more flourishing
condition, and are progressively improving. The laws are
better observed, and, where it becomes necessary to enforce
them, more vigorously administered than heretofore.