The Sun.
London, England, 1832-08-04 00:00:00

DISTURBANCE AT CLITHEROE.

Mr. STANLEY moved the Order of the Day for re-
ceiving the report of the Tithes Composition (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. HUME wished to take that opportunity of putting
a question to the Noble Lord, on the subject of an attack
made by the military on the people at Clitheroe, respect-
ing which he had received by express an account. That
account was in the Blackburn paper, which stated that
Mr. Irving having gone down to canvass the borough of
Clitheroe, was received by the people there with consi-
derable dissatisfaction, and being, as it was said, very un•
popular, his presence has created considerable excitement,
which continued throughout the day. In the evening Mr.
Irving returned, accompanied by about fifty dragoons and
two clerical magistrates, and instead of going outside the
town, as they might have done, they chose to ride through
it, and amongst the people, who were still assembled, and
under great excitement, some of them under the influence
of liquor. Some irritating expressions were made use of,
and before reading the Riot Act the troops charged in
amongst the people, s-ven or eight of whom were sabred
in the streets. It did not appear that any were killed,
but the number he had stated were severely wounded.
This account, as he had said, was contained in a Black-
burn paper; what he wished to know from the Noble
Lord was, whether Government had any, and what ac-
count of the affair ?

Lord ALTHORP was not in possession of the details of
the circumstances to which his Hon. Friend had alluded.
He bad beard that morning at the office of his Noble
Friend the Secretary for the Home Department, that some
disturbance had taken place at Clitheroe; that the mili-
tary were called in to disperse the crowd after the Riot
Act had been read, and that, in doing so, some persons
were wounded, but that no lives were lost.

Mr. WARBURTON said, that according to an account
which accompanied the Blackburn piper, it appeared that
sixteen persons were wounded, and that one man received
a shot in the temple.
Mr. BURGE said it was probable that the first ac-
counts of the affair were greatly exaggerated. At all
events, the House ought not to make the matter a subject
of discussion in the absence of the lion. Member (Mr.
Irving) who was interested in it.
Mr. HUNT said, it was extraordinary that Ministers
should be without information on a matter of such im-
portance, which had already appeared in a newspaper, and
from which it appeared that many persons had been cut
down in the streets by the sabres of the military. He
(Mr. Hunt) had to complain of the conduct of Mr. Ir-
ving's committee, who hail taken the liberty of coupling
his (Mr. Hunt's) name with that of Mr. Irving, for the
purpose of making that gentleman more popular.
Lord ALTHORP said, the statement that the attack
was made on the people before the Riot Act was read, %11a
not correct. The Riot Act had been read before the mili-
tary had been called in.
After a few words from Sir C. WETHERELL, which did
not reach the Gallery,
Mr. DIXON said, this was the first case of any dis.
tut bance of any kind in is canvass under the Reform Bill,
and he hoped it would have the effect of suggesting to
those who had popular influence on the one hand, and to
those who had authority on the other, to unite in their
endeavour to repress any violence on both sides.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUNT observed that the Noble Lord (Althorp)
had said, that the Riot Act had been read before the military
had charged the people. Now he hoped it would not go
forth to the public, that because the Riot Act had been
read, the troops were justified in at once attacking tha
people.
Lord ALTHORP said, nothing had fallen from him
warranting the inference that he held the opinion that the
people, in case of riot, were to be attacked the moment the
Riot Act was read.
Here the conversation ended.
TITHES' COMPOSITION (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. STANLEY moved the Order of the Day for re-
ceiving the report of the above Bill.
Sir J. BURKE wished to call the attention of the
Honourable Member for Limerick to the case of Mr. Ma-
hon, a gentleman who formerly held a situation in the
Irish Stamp Office. By the abrogation of the situation
which he had held, a saving of 2,500/. a year had been
effected. He hoped, if an ample provision were not made
for him, that he would soon be employed in the public
service, as he had been a most efficient officer.
Mr. S. PICT said the Board oh Treasury perfectly re-
cognized the claizis of Mr. Mahon, who had a retired al-
lowance according to the prescribed scale. His claims
were undoubtedly great; but great as those claims were,
Government could not, with reference to Mr. Mahon, in-
troduce an arbitrary principle, which might be applied in
a manner that would have the appearance of partiality.
Mr. BERNAL then brought up the report of the Irish
Tithe Composition Bill.
Mr. LEADER had watched this Bill with the utmost
anxiety, and he thought that he was perfectly justified
in trying to count the House out for the purpose of de-
feating it, because a more iniquitous or injurious measure
never was brought into Parliament. He should now,
however, cease from any further opposition, as it seas
useless.

Mr. RUTHVEN should not farther resist the measure,
as he saw it was a fruitle,s task.

The amendments were then agreed to.
Mr. STANLEY proposed that the Bill LI read a third
time to-morrow.

Mr. LEADER said, that as this, in consequence of the
amendments, was nearly a new Bill, it ought to be printed
before it was read a third time. A Bill which imposed a
charge of 700,0001. a-year on Ireland in perpetuity, ought
not to be pressed through the House with such reckless
haste.

Mr. STANLEY agreed that the Bill should he printed,
and that the third readiug should b, postponed to Monday.

REFORM BILL (IRELAND).
Mr. STANLEY moved the Order of the Day for
taking into consideration the Lords' amendments to the
Irish Reform Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman in call-
ing on the House to agree to those amendments, was very
far from saying that he approved of the whole of them.
To one of them, indeed, it wool! be necessary to pro-
pose an amendment; but, as the alteration made by the
Lords formed a separate clause, there would be no diffi-
culty in effecting that object. The amendments m ere
four in number, and to two of them, be believed, no
Member of that House would object. The first had re-
ference to the Clergy, who, it was provided, should re-
mister the same as 50/. freeholders. The second provided
that the Chairman of the county of Dublin should be
permitted to register freeholders by deputy; be allowing
to such deputy a certain portion of remuneration. The
third amendment had reference to the right of freeholders,
who became possessed of their freeholds since the 30th of

March, 1831, to qualify. It was declared by the clause,
that no freeholder who did not enjoy his freehold by in-

heritance, marriage, or devise, should be allowed to
qualify, if he came into his freehold after the 30th March,
1831. Here their Lordships had omitted " 405.," and the
effect of the clause, as it now stood, would be to disqua-
lify freeholders of 201. or of 501. per annum. This it
would be necessary to amend, and he should therefore
propose that, after the word " freehold" there should be
inserted " under the annual value of 10/." To the last
amendment he felt a very strong objection. That amend-
ment would continue in perpetuity the system of corporate
freemen, which the Bill originally abrogated, confirming
the right only to the children of freemen who were born
previous to the passing of the Bill. The great argument in
favour of this alteration was, that the rights of corporate
freemen in England were not touched by the English Bill,
and that the same course should be taken with respect to
Ireland. Now, if they did not meddle with a right which
in England was not abused, that appeared to him no
reason for abstaining to take away that right with respect
of Ireland, where it was' notoriously abused. He would
toot, however, at this late period of the Session, oppose
this amendment, though his feeling was adverse to it ; and
he took that course the more especially, because twenty or
thirty years must elapse before any practical effect could
be produced by the original clause, seeing that the right
was secured under it to the children of freemen horn
before the planing of this Bill. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman then moved the introduction of the words " under
the yearly value of 101.," in clause A, which was agreed to.
On the amendment continuing the right of freemen in
corporations to vote in perpetuity,
Mr. JEPHSON expressed his hostility to it. He would
not, however, hazard the fate of the bill by moving for its
rejection, if the Lords insisted on retaining it.
Mr. RUTH VEN, though opposed to the amendment,
would rather give way to the Lords than endanger the loss
of the whole bill.

Lord ALTHORP did not think that they would sue.
ceed in their object if a conference were agreed to. Ii
was, therefore, he conceived, better not to demand a con.
ference.

Mr. CALLAGHAN was of opinion that they ought to
have a conference, in order to get rid of this amendment,
which he considered to be a very grent deformity in the
bill. The corporations would, by their manoeuvres, con-
trive totally to overpower the votes of the householders.
Mr. LEFROY highly approved of the amendment.
BIN S. RICE hoped, as this amendment perpetuated
the right of corporate freemen to vote, that his Right
Hon. Friend would take care in the next session to
introduce a measure has%ing for its object the prevention
of two evils, which, otherwise, would inevitably grow out
of the system--first, to prevent the introduction of hono-
rary freemen ; and next, to provide that individuals, no
matter what their political or religious opinions might be,
should not be excluded from corporations if they could
make out a clear right to take up their freedom.
Mr. STANLEY said that the attention of the Go-
vernment should certainly be directed to those points, and
that a measure should be introduced, if necessary, to pre-
vent Corporations from abusing their power in those
respects.

Mr. SHAW was extremely happy that the Lords had
removed from the Bill that which was only an unmeaning
insult to the freemen of Ireland.

Sir J.BURKE thought that freemen should be abolishes
altogether.

Mr. HUME hoped that in the next Session a Bill
would be brought in to put an end to all Corporations,
and the countless abuses connected with them, and to give
to the inhabitants of all cities and towns the power of
electing their own Magistrates.
Mr. JEPHSON said, that after the declaration of the
NoDle Lord opposite, and after the declaration of the
Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, that he would give his
consideration to the mode of making freemen in Corpora-
tions, be would not, in the present thin state of the
House, run the risk of losing a House by proposing the
motion of which he had given notice on this subject.
The amendments were then put and agreed to.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the Lord Chan-
cellor's Bill, and the Civil List Payments Bill, were seve-
rally read a second time, and ordered to be committed on
Monday next.
CROWN COLONIES (WEST INDIA) RELIEF.
Lord ALTHORP then moved the Order of the Day
for a Committee of the whole House, for considering the
Relief to be granted to the Crown Colonies in the West
Indies.

Mr. HUAIE said the Noble Lord had not yet stated
what his plan was. He was not prepared to say that
there was any necessity for going into Committee at all.
He did not, however, object to reading the Order of the
Day.
The Order of the Day was then read.

Lord ALTHORP said he thought it would be more
convenient to make his statement in Committee; he had
no objection, however, to enter into his plan then if his
Hon. Friend requited it. The object of the present ap-
plication was to obtain from the House the means of en-
abling his Majesty's Ministers to carry into effect the pro-
mises made to the colonies which adopted the Order in
Council. The Noble Lord then took a brief review of
the history of that order, and the transactions connected
therewith; and said that, by the plan proposed, substan-
tial advantages would be conferred on the colonies in ques-
tion; but, at the same time, no unfair advantages, in point
of trade, over the other colonies. In asking for the power
which his Majesty's Government sought at the hands of
the House, it was not their intention to afford any relief
to the colonies, unless those colonies submitted themselves
to, and carried into effect the Order in Council. The
question for the House was simply this—whether they
would allow his Majesty's Government to fulfil their pro-
mises for the amelioration of the condition of the slaves in
the crown colonies, or refuse them the power so to do.
The ch age upon the country would not be great, and but
for a limited time. The sum of 57,0001. he proposed to
apply to all the colonies. He heard that the opposition
intended to be brought forward was, that half the revenue
of the colonies ought to be granted by this country. He
felt perfectly assured that the people of England would be
ready to assent to this charge, as a great step to that ame-
lioration of the condition of the slaves for which, they had
expressed themselves so anxious ; and which, they had ad-
mitted in their petitions, they did not expect without some
sacrifice on their parts. All further details he should re-
serve to the Committee, and he moved that " The Speaker
do leave the Chair."

Mr. HUME asked whether any of the colonies had
laimed this piyment, in consequence of the promise held
out to them in Lord Goderich's dispatch ?
Lord ALTHORP said, that the agents of several of the
colonies had made such a claim.

Mr. HUNIE hoped there would be no objection to lay
these applivatioas before the House. He could not agree
to vote such a sum of money in the absence of sufficient
information.

Lord HOWICK said that no documents could be laid
before the House on that occasion, because there were no
recognized agents for the Crown Colonies.

Mr. BURGE said that the documents, such as they
were, might be laid before the House. He knew from
the persons representing the opinions of Demerara and
Berbice, that no application had been made from those
colonies.

Laid ALTHORP said, that it would appear from the
observations of his Hon. Friend, as, though he thought
that such a promise was made, there was no occasion to
perform it till the party for whom it was made applied
for its performance.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS complained of the manner
in which the question was brought forward. The Noble
Lord had delayed giving any explanation of his plan till
just at the conclusion of the Session, and now they were
called upon to vote money without having the opportunity
of discussing the propriety of that Order in Cornell, which
was to many exceedingly objectionable, and which the
present grant would in effect sanction.
Mr. MARRYATT read a letter he had received from
Trinidad, which showed that the Orders in Council had
not proved so injurious there as elsewhere. The slaves
would do less work, but the reduction in the duties would
make amends for that. The Crown Colonies were,"-how-
ever, undoubtedly entitled to the fulfilment of the pronii,es
of the Government.

Mr. COUR FENAY could not enter into the discus-
sion of a question of such vast importance as this m
House of Commons of not more than 40 Members, and
on the 3d of August.

Sir A. DALRYMPLE thought that the House could
not agree to the present proposition of the Government
without pledging themselves to agree in the propriety of
the Orders in Council.

Lord HOWICK defended the Orders in Council, and
said, that the colonies were not to be punished because
they proved disobedient, but relieved when they removed
the only obstacle that offered to their demands being
granted.
Lord SANDON agreed with the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Courtenav) that this was a most improper time
to agitate the question, and particularly when the Go-
vernment had admitted that the Orders in Council should
receive some modification. The question before them was one
entirely new. It bad come on them within the last three
or four days, and he in common with many others had no
opportunity of consulting his constituents.
Dr. LUSHINGTON was 'ouch surprised to hear Gen-
tlemen connected with the West Indies opposing a vote

which was expressly insended for their relief. He denied
that he entertained any hostility towards the West India
Colonies. On the contrary, he wished them that pros-
perity which, he was persuaded, they could not enjoy until
slavery had ceased to exist.

Mr. BURGE observed that the Colonies were opposed
to the plan of amelioration projected by his Majesty's Go-
vernment, not because they were hostile to amelioration,
but, on the contrary, because they did not believe that
that plan would produce the amelioration ascribed to it.
The Hon. Member recapitulated the course which his Ma-
jesty's Ministers had pursued on this subject. Six months
ago the opposition to the Sugar Duties, which opposition,
if persevered in, would have been effectual, had been with-
drawn on the promise of Government th it they would
bring forward a plan for the relief of the Colonies; and
now they brought in a plan based on the Orders in
Council, of which the Colonies disapproved, and involving
in it an approbation on the part of the House of Com-
mons of those Orders; although no inquiry had been
made by the House of Commons into to their merits, and
although the Report of the Committee on the subject had
not been received. He wished the Noble Lord opposite
had adopted the manly course on the subject which had
been pursued by the Right Hon. Chief Secretary for Ire-
land, who, in his address to the electors of a place for which
he was a candidate, stated, that although he wis desirous
of emancipating the slaves in the West India Colo-
nies, he was not desirous of emancipating then► at a time,
or in a manner that would involve the destruction of the
planters. He (Mr. Burge) confessed the surprise with
which he had heard it asserted that the Colonial Legisla.
tures were not the fit bodies to be entrusted with the re-
gulation of society in the Colonies in which they sat; and
he was the more surprised at this, when he recollected
how strongly the Noble and Learned Lord who was at pre-
sent at the head of the Legal Administration in this coon
try, had formerly deprecated any attempt on the part of
the House of Commons to convert itself into a Legislature
for the regulation of the internal affairs of the colonies. He
wished to know how it was to be ascertained that the law
was in full operation in Trinidad, or in any of the Crown
Colonies. Where, too, were the protests which had been
made on the subject (ruin the other colonies? He believed
that they were not on the Table ; or if they were, that it
was only within the last two or three days. It was only
within that short time that the intentions of his Majesty's
Government had been announced. Yet, at such a period of
the Session, when it was so difficult to keep forty Mein •
hers together, his Majesty's Government called upon the
House to express their approbation of a plan of which
they knew nothing, and which had been decidedly objected
to by all persons of local knowledge, and by the colonies
themselves. The House were called upon blindly to sur-
render their judgment to the Noble Lord, the Under Se-
cretary for the Colonial Department. For himself, he was
sorry to say that he had not seen anything either in the
conduct or in the tone of that Noble Lord which would
justify him in reposing any confidence in him.

Mr. HUME characterized the details of the Orders in
Council in question as a mass of absurdity. They showed
how incapable men in Downing-street were of regulating
the internal affairs of distant colonies. No sooner was
one Order issued than it was suspended or counteracted
by another. Such, indeed, was the system of our Colo.
Dial Administration, that it would be a miracle if affairs
were well managed. He confessed the surprise with whicli
lie had heard the Hon. Member for Sandwich ; and it
certainly appeared to him not to be fair and candid for an
Hon. Member to affix his hand and seal to a protest one
day, and then come down the next and contradict the opi-
nions he had avowed. He strongly objected to the present
mode of endeavouring to obtain the indirect sanction of
the House of Commons to Orders in Council, into the
merits of which they had made no inquiry. The proposed
vote was contrary to all practice, experience, and principle.
What could be more unjustifiable than on one of the last
nights of a Session to come down and propose a grant
of 57,000/, without having laid any grounds for it ?
There was no proof that the Order in question had been
carried into effect in Trinidad. If he were to judge
from the Newspapers, be should say not. He
would not believe it unless he saw documents
on the table to prove it. He would be wil-
ling to vote almost any sum of money for the abolition of
slavery, but he most strongly protested against granting
money by driblets, which could have no other effect ex-
cept that of creating annoyance, and promoting a state
of warfare in the colonies. He hoped the Noble Lord
might be yet induced to postpone his motion, and he
was led to this hope from his letter of the 13th of May.
As to the Order in Council, he could only designate it
as ri liculous in the extreme. The Noble Lord provided
that the slaves should work for a less number of hours
than the workmen in any English factory, that they should
be better fed than any of his Majesty's soldiers, and better
dressed in many instances than the planters themselves.
They were to have hats and shoes, and razors, and leather
breeches—(Laughter)—no, not leather breeches, but he
had really expected to find them in the list ; for he remem-
bered a story, told by Sir Wm. Jones, of two Judges, who
seemed to entertain the same rational and kindly feelings
towards the slaves with the Noble Viscount. The two
Judges, on landing in India, were, as usual, carried ashore
by men whose only covering was a cloth wrapped round
the middle. In fact, any other and more cumbrous style of
dress would have been only an inconvenience to them. But
the Learned Judges were greatly shocked at their deplor-
able condition, and scandalized at their unfashionable de-
gree of nudity, and one exclaimed to the other, as they
were carried forward, " Well, brother, if you and I can
only succeed in getting the laws put properly in force, all
these poor men shall have leather breeches."—(Loud
laughter.) Then it was provided that every slave was to
have a razor each year—a razor every year !—Why,
Sir, exclaimed the Hon. Gentleman, I have the razors I
bought in 1795 yet.—(Laughter.) In short he would
protest against the Order in Council, as injurious alike to
the interest of master and slave—of the colony and of
the mother country.—(Hear, hear.) The inefficiency of
the Colonial Department was notorious.—(Hear, bear.)
An impracticable Order was first published—then came
their letters altering and amending it, and all having with
the Governors the effect of Orders in Council. This was
ridiculous, and yet not more so than their conduct with
respect to the financial affairs of the colonies. There was
Trinidad ; the expenditure amounted to 37,0001. a year;
although the Governor had said, that if the colony were
suffered to manage its own affairs this expense might he
reduced one-half, and the difference saved to the public.
In conclu,ion, he protested against the grant in conse-
quence of the evasions of the Government, and their not
having given sufficient notice, and in consequence of his
belief that the payment would not produce the effect in-
tended, but would lead only to the like useless extrava-
gance hereafter.—(Cheers.)
Mr. MARRYATT said, that many of the most objec-
tionable clauses in the order in council were not compul-
sory ; and that in Trinidad, where it was enforced, it
had worked well. He considered that the opposition to in
was unfortunate, and if the colonies disapproved of his
conduct, he would be quite ready to resign his honorary
office of agent.
Mr. BURGE said, his Honourable Friend bad now
expressed those sentiments for the first time.
Lord HOWICK observed, that the last and most vio-
lent protest against the order in council was not signed by
his Hon. Friend.

Lord ALTHORP said, that voting for this grant could
not be construed into an approbation of all the details of
the order in council. The case was simply this—tenet
had been promised to those colonies which would adopt the
order in council ; that relief should be afforded them.
They came to Parliament to enable them to perform that
promise. It was true, the order was not acted upon every
where ; but in cases where it was not acted on no money
would be paid. They could not, however, without the
sanction of Parliament on the present occasion, have the
means of keeping their promise in any cases He denied
that the letters alluded to were modifications of the order
in council. They only went to enforce one of its provi-
sions. He gave his Hon. Friend all credit for sincerity
in the desire he expressed to ameliorate the condition of
the slave; but he much regretted the course he bad pur-
sued on this occasion.
The House then divided--.

Ayes
Noes
Majority
The House then resolved itself into Committee.
Lord ALTHORP moved that a sum not, exceeding
58,000/. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund for the
relief of the Crown colonies.
Sir A. DALRYMPLE repeated that this was a most
extraordinary vote, and that culling on the House of Corn-
tnons to make it, was calling on
i the House to give its
sanction f o the Order in Council. The whole proceed.
ing was a proof of the greatest incapacity in the colonial
Government.
Air. WARBURTON approved of the resolutions,
though he did not approve of the means for carrying them
into effect. He thought means had been recommended
in the Committee by which those resolutions might have
and proposed such a one to
been carried into effect without laying any burden on this
country.
Lord HOWICK agreed with the Hon Member. Lord
that plan could be carried into
pointed of the House of Lords
appointed
ettGoiffloceidcncetio,ruliaociriniceiehosi.nai.ndntoisijut3tethuehete abswte
state
0:1 an
ef the West Indies, and it wasr

felt that while that inquiry was pending it would have
been wrong to carry any measure into effect.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS had never before heard that the
Government had any specific plan of relief.
After some further discussion, the resolution was
agreed to.—The House then resumed.

- Lord ALTHORP moQ;l7;t—it be brought up to-
morrow.

Mr. BURGE said that he should divide the House on
the question, as he wished it to be postponed until Mon-
day..
. . .

The gallery was cleared, but no division occurred ; and
it was agreed that the report should be brought up on
Monday.

The'Ecelesiastical Courts' Contempt Bill went through
the Committee.

Mr. LEFROY objected to one of the clauses—that it
was retrospective, and that it was inserted for the purpose
of affecting an individual.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL argued the contrary,
contending that the clause was not meant to apply indivi-
dually.
I\lr. LEFROY moved an amendment, that the clause
do not extend to any order or decree made prior to the
passing of the Act.
After some conversation the Committee divided :—.
For the Amendment l2
Against it 34
Majority —22

The gallery was cleared for a second division, but it
was understood that none took place.
The House resumed, and the report was ordered to be
received to-morrow (this day).
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Half-past Two o'clock.