The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-16 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY).
The LOF,D CHANCELLOR. took his seat on the woolsack

five o'clock.
THE RIOTS AT KINSALE.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE asked whether the
Government had received any information with respect to
the late disgraceful outrages which had been committed by
regiment of Antrim militia against the inhabitr►nts of Kin-
sale. The outrage was of the most disgraceful character,
as the officers knew well the Orange opinions of the regi-

meat.
The Earl of RIPON said information had been received
at the War Office that a riot had occurred on the 12th July,
between the Antrim Artillery Militia and the inhabitants. I
The most active steps had bean taken by the magistracy,
and the Antrim mffitia had been remoN ed from the place.
It was the intention of Lord Seaton to institutes most search-
ing inquiry into the whole of the circumstances connected
with the riot, and he trusted, on the report of the inquiry
being received, it would, turn out that the reports which
bad appeared in the newspapers were greatly exaggerated.
LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY.
On the motion of the Duke of DEVONSHIRE this bill was

sen-tback for recommitment.
THE BIRKENHEAD, LANCASHIRE, AND
CHESHIRE RAILWAY.
The debate on this bill was farther adjourned.

THE ITALIAN QUESTION.
Earl GRANVILLE, with reference to the motion which
Lad been given by the Earl of Malmesbury for the produc-
tion of two circulars signed by Count Cavour, dated the
14th and 16th of June, and Count Cavour's reply to the
despatch of the Earl of Malmesbury to Sir J. Hudson,
dated the 7th of June, was understood to suggest the post-
ponement of the motion, as the production of the papers 'at
the present moment might be attended with inconvenience.
The Earl of MALMESFITRY felt that these were times
when the discussion of foreign affairs was anything but de-
sirable in their lordship? house, and had no hesitation in
saying that if his noble friend thought such a discussion
inconvenient at the present moment he would withdraw his
motion. At the same time, a portion of the observations
which he had intended to makeX related to a subject which
could not be productive of any inconvenience, and that was
the future state of the Duchy of Parma. He believed that
the dignity with which the Duchess of Parma.had encoun-
tered the difficulties before her had excited the a,dmiration of
all parties, and that it would be an act of injustice to her if
she was not reinstated in her position, supposing that to be
the wish of her people. Before the late Government left
office he made an appeal to the Sardinian Government on
the subject, and in the answer of Count Cavour to the pre-
sent Government statements were made in which he could
not agree. He was prepared to meet these statements one
by one, and refute each and all of them by dates and do-
cumentary evidence. But it was of less importance that
he should do so now, seeing that the Minister who signed
that reply, and who had published two circulars bearing-on
the subject, and containing equally unfounded assertions,
was no longer Minister of the kingdom of Sardinia. He
should, therefore, do no more at present than protest
against the statements which had been made by Count
Cavour, taking another opportunity, if it thould be neces-
sary, of entering into the discussion. It was possible that
he might not have any opportunity during the present
session of touching upon foreign affairs, and, although he
willingly acceded to the request of his noble friend, he must
not be misunderstood if, speaking generally and abstractedly,
he said that it was not so inconvenient as some of their lord-

ships appeared to think for the house to enter into foreign
affairs, and discharge them even if a crisis should exist.
When he was Minister for Foreign Affairs he should have
been spared many misrepresentations if he had had the op-
portunity of explaining the policy of the Government, and
he thought it was far from being a disadvantage to the Go-
vernment from time to time to ascertain the opinions of the
house and the country respecting foreign affairs. Of course
that must be a question of discretion, and he was convinced
that his noble friend would not ask him to postpone his
motion without sufficient reason. He trusted that a discus-
sion would take place before the separation of Parliament,
in order that the Government might ascertain the feeling of
the country, and also state to the country their own opinions.
There was neutrality in peace as well as neutrality in war,
and it was of the utmost consequence that the country should
understand what line of policy and what degree of interfer-

ence the Government meant to adopt.
The Marquis of NOILMANBY, understanding that there
was no objection to the production of the despatch from Lord
John Russell to Sir James Hudson on the subject of the
alleged annexation of the Duchies of Central Italy by the

Government of Piedmont, would merely state that, consi-
dering the personal character of the Duchess of Parma,
and the attention she had always shown to the welfare of

her subjects, he trusted no attempt would be made to dis•
possess her of the status which she had hitherto held.
Earl GRANVILLE did not wish to be misunderstood
Nothing was further from his intention than to suggest as a
general rule that matters of general foreign policy ought not
to be discussed. On the other hand, there were cases which
it was desirable to refrain from discussing, and that was pre-
cisely the case before their lordships. If their lordships were
to enter into a debate they would labour under the disad-
vantage and inconvenience of disc-v.Bam a 'subject iespeet-
ing which at the present time they possessed very imperfect
information.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said it was impossible
not to infer from the remarks of the noble earl opposite
(Malmesbury) that he looked upon the retirement of Count
Cavour from office with no regret. Now he (the Marquis of
Clanricarde) thought no Minister of any country had come
out so well as Count Cavour. He might, perhaps, have been
indiscreet in some respects, but he had been animated
throughout by strong feelings of patriotism and liberality,
and it was a matter of regret that he had retired from the
office which he had so ably filled. (Hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM believed that her Majesty's Govern-
ment were not more ignorant of what was going on than
the Governments of France and Austria. (Laughter.) All
three sets of Ministers were equally ignorant of the inten-
tion of the two Emperors, who carried on their business
without Ministers. That was a degree—he would not say
of despotic Government—but it was a degree of unlimited
monarchy such as had never been known before in any other
country except for a short period during the career of the
first Napoleon, and even then there was more communica-
tion than at present. He understood that Count Wajewski,
the Minister of Foreign Affairs, received his first and only
intimation of what was going on from the Empress, who
had received a despatch from the Emperor. It was if most
melancholy thing to have the fate of nations, the question
of peace or war, depending upon sovereigns who had such
absolute power that they not only had no control exercised
over them by Parliament, by the press, or by public diseus-
lion, but not even that moderate sort of control which the
existence of an Administration imposed. (Hear.). With
respect to the war, it was one of false pretences, not one
single pretence of which had been fulfilled by the success
of that war. As we happily had had no hand in the war,
so happily we had had no hand in the peace, and he con-
gratulated the Government on being wholly irresponsible
for the terms of the extraordinary arrangement which was
now in progress.
The Earl of DERBY said his noble friend opposite, al-
though aware that peace had been concluded between France
and Austria,was ignorant of the circumstances which had led
to the peace, the terms of the peace, and the diplomatic dis-
cussions which were taking place. It was understood that
France had entered upon-the war as the ally of Sardinia,—
not as the principal, but as the subsidiary to Sardinia—and
he wished to ask his noble friend whether, along with the
information of the conclusion of peace between France and
Austria, he had received any information as to the conclu-
sion of peace between Sardinia and Austria. (Laughter.)
Earl GRANVILLE knew nothing more on the subject
than was known to their lordships.
The Marquis of NORMANBY then moved for the pro-
duction of the despatch of Lord J. Russell to Sir 3. Hud-
son: and stated that if any motion was brought forward re-
speeting Count Cavour, he should state his reksons for
differing from the opinion of Lord Malmesbury.
Lord EBURY expressed a hope that this country would
fully carry out the principle of non-interference. - He had
conversed with many diplomatists en the subject, and their
opinion was, that if England would only wait, and not in-
trude her advice—would not perpetually interfere and ad-
vise—she would bemplied to, and her opinion would then
benumb, more respected. (Hear, hear.)
The 'Duke of RUTLAND was of opinion that inter-
ference was not at all times desirable, but still thought there
were times when it was the duty of the Government to in-
terfere. Aa a noble lord opposite entertained such a high
opinion of Count Cavour, perhaps he would endorse the
following expression used by the Count on receiving the
intelligence that her Majesty's Government had not re-
signed officeis ennseenence of the recent vote of the House
of Commons :
"He Was heartily glad to learn this deci-
sion, for he thought it would be a public misfortune if the
Cabinet of which Lord Derby is the chief,
and which has
recently taken so prominent a part in the promotion of a
congress for settling the Italian
question, should quit office
almost at the moment of commencing the discussion of the
question upon which it has
Prmlounced a strong opinion."
He (the Duke of Rutland) did not
generally concur in
inion with Count Cavour, but he did " • •
op so most cordially in
that remark.' (Hear, hear.)
Lord. STRATFORD de REDCLIFFE thought the
cbjectien was rather to the manner in whieh interference]
took place than to interference itself. As this conversation
i eferred to the affairs of Italy, he might be allowed more
urticularly to call to mind the affairs of Naples. When be
'eras lately in that country, he was much struck with the
'isisequences of the particular mode of interference which
had recently been adopted there. It appeared to him that
in consequence of the manner in which that interference
ha it been effected, notwithstanding the immense advantage
we I :had of actin,, in concert with our French ally, by our
v. lust of judgment in the manner of doing it, we forfeited
th et advantage, and the result was mist unsatisfactory. It
wo pld be remembered that we withdrew our Minister from
the Cottrt of Naples', and the French Government did the
Ban consequence of the line which the King of Naples
at t. Mme took with his own subjects, and which he did
not ant-talon in consequence of our interference. He thought
if that' interference had been confined to good advice, sup-
par ted by the excellent example of this country, and if we
had ni *placed the King in a false position with his own
subj et ,ttg we should have obtained a much better result.
Not, Ti ceding all that could be alleged against the con-
duct a f the Sovereign, and all that we had justly felt about

the manner in which he conducted himself towards his own
subjects, he maintained his position as long as suited his
convenience, he never made the slightest concession toEng-
land and France, and he departed to another state of being
in the obdurate triumph of a bad policy. This was perhaps
the most remarkable result that had recently been obtained
by such interference, but no doubt the observation and
memory of noble lords would remind them of other suck
instances. He must therefore express his opinion that
it was not the interference itself which was improper, but
the mode of that interference was objectionable ; and he
trusted that this example would not be forgotten, but
would be remembered to the improvement of our policy on
future occasions. (Cheers.) The name of a very illus-
trious foreign Minister had been mentioned in this conver-
sation with a high panegyric. So far as he (Lord Strat-
ford de Radcliffe) knew anything of the subject, he be-
lieved that, so far as talents .were concerned, and a natural
desire to serve Italy, that Minister was worthy of such a
panegyric; but when he looked at the evidence there was
respecting the policy which had been pursued, and when he
saw nothing to prevent him from justly concluding that that
policy had been mainly brought about by him, he thought
that Minister had a great deal to answer for. (Hear.) He
thought it would be a misfortune for this country and for
this house if some opportunity were not afforded of expres-
sing the opinions excited in their minds by those circum7
stances. Was it possible to lose sight of the manner in
which, to all appearance, the retolutionary movement had
been brought about in the Central States of Italy, where the
representative of the King of Sardinia was himself em-
ployed, to all appearance, in bringing about revolution ? He
(Lord Stratford de Radcliffe) would venture to say that,
supposing it to be a fact that the Sardinian Minister at
Florence really took part in such a conspiracy, he rendered
himself amenable to the laws of the country, and if the
Grand Duke ofruscany had got that Minister into his power,
his diplomatic character would not have sheltered him from
being hanged, at his own door. He (Lord Stratford de Red.
cliffe) did indeed believe, looking back to his recollections
of an earlier period in the history of our own country, that
such would have been the fate of any foreign minister who
should have acted that way here when Cromwell was the
ruler of this country. One might sympathise ever so much
with the cause of freedom in Italy, still the employment of
means of that sort could not be appreved of. It was gain-
ing a little advantage at the expense of sacrificing the good-
will of the civilised world. Now it was absolutely neces-
sary that opportunities should be afforded in that house of
expressing their opinion upon the recent events. What
was to become of that principle of deference to public
opinion, by which States were held together, if it was not
to find some expression in their lordships' house ? He had
been delighted to hear his noble and learned friend (Lord
Brougham) express his opinion so freely, although on
Friday evening last his noble and learned friend
had interrupted him. (A laugh.) At the same time,
he quite agreed that his noble friend who represented the
Government in that house had exercised a sound discretion
at this moment in requesting the noble earl opposite to put
off that which would have brought the matter into general
discussion. He trusted, however, that an opportunity would
come when that house would be enabled to discuss the mat-
ter, and, as he hoped, with some advantage.
Lore WODEHOUSE had not the slightest desire to pro-
long this discussion, which he thought was most inoppor-
tune ; but, he must observe that he, in common with his
noble friend (Earl Granville), thought that a discussion on
foreign affairs at the proper moment would be of the greatest
advantage to the country and the Government, and he was
sure that when the opportunity came for these matters to be
discussed, his noble friend would be desirous that the opinion
of Parliament should be fully and fairly expressed. But the
reason why they deprecated any discussion upon this occa-
sion was, that they did not know what they were about to
discuss. They had not the facts before them, upon which
they could form an opinion. (Hear.) When they should
have obtained those facts, her Majesty's Government would
form their own opinion, and then no doubt their lordships
would, be ready to listen to that opinion and to express their
sentiments, either in concurrence with it or not. As to the
papers asked for, there were two circulars dated the 14th-and
16th of June, which had beon sent by Count Cavour to be
communicated
to her Majesty's Government; they were
read by the Sardinian Minister to his noble friend the Sec-
retary for Foreign Affairs, but no copies had been placed in
his hands, so that, although they had appeared in the news-
papers, he could not ley them before Parliament. The other
document asked for a despatch of her Majesty's Govern-
ment referrring to those despatches of Count Cavour, and
it should lie laid on the table.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said the answer to those
circulars would be unintelligible if the circulars themselves
were not printed also. It was desirable, therefore, that the
Foreign Secretory should ask for copies of those circulars.
Lord WODEHOUSE said the despatch of the noble lord
wasnot strictly an answer to those circulars, but merely con-
tained the observations made by the noble lord upon those
circulars being read to him. In fact, it contained very little
more than the other despatch, which the noble marquis
(Normanby) had moved for. The circular referred to had
appeared in the newspapers.
The motion woo-then agreea to.
The Clerk of the Council Bill was read a second time.

The Earl of DONOUGHMORE presented a petition
from the North Staffordshiro Railway Company, praying
to be heard against the " London and North-Western and
other Railway Companies Working and Traffic Arrange-
ments Bill," which had been ordered, on the motion of the
Duke of Devonshire, to be recommitted on Monday next.
He (the Earl of Donoughmore) having been absent when
the noble duke moved the recommittal of the bill, wished.to
know what course should be adopted.
Lord REDESDALE said the noble duke moved the re-
committal of the bill under the impression that it was not
opposed. Perhaps it would be better to discharge the order
for the recommittal on Monday, and put it off till Tuesday.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY and Lord PORTMAN ob-
jected to this course as irregular, since the proper notice of
the recommittal had been given, and there would be an op-
portunity of opposing the bill on the third reading.
It was agreed to leave the matter to the decision of the
committee, and no motion was made.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)

The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
WITHDRAWAL OF ELECTION PETITIONS.

The SPEAKER announced that the-petitions against
the return of the members for the boroughs of Athlone,
Berwick-on-Tweed, and Sandwich were withdrawn.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' amendments to the following bills were con-
sidered and agreed to :—Castle Douglas and Dumfries
Railway, Hertford, Luton, and Dunstable Railway, Lanid-
loes and Newtown Railway, Portsmouth and London and
South-Western Railway Companies, and Sevenoaks Rail-
way Bills.
The following bills were read a third time and passed ;
Blackburn and Preston Road and Bridge, Bradford, Wake-
field, and Leeds Railway, Colne Valley and Halstead Rail-
way, Liverpool Exchange, Metropolitan Railway (Devia-
tions, &c.), Tendring Hundred Railway.
MINERS.

Mr. KINNAIRD presented a petition from Barnsley
district, signed by 5,500 miners and others, for short time
and education for the children employed in coal and iron.
stone mines, and for a uniform system of weighing the ma•
terial at the pit's mouth ; and, also, for the adoption a
means to elevate the physical and intellectual condition
miners.