The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-29 00:00:00

these two sovereigns had agreed. There is not a doubt
it would not become the dignity of this country to enter
into the settlement of these details. But when it becomes
a question with regard to the future of Italy—when the
whole fortune:of Italy for years to some will depend on
may be done either by the sovereigns of Franc')
and Austria alone or by the states of Europe sitting in
congress, the question is one of a very different complexion.
(Hear, hear.) The Earl of Clarendon, in 1856, when
attending the conference of Paris to deliberate on the ques-
tion of peace between Great Britain and France on the one
side and Russia on the other, thought it his duty, in con-
junction with the Ambassador Plenipotentiary of France,to
bring the subject of Italy before the consideration of the
conference. He did so on the ground that the state of Italy
was important to Europe, and be declared that so long as
the existing state of affairs continued, and Rome was occu-
pied by foreign troops, they could expect nothing but revo-
lution. He said it behoved the wisdom of the Powers of
Europe to consider whatremedies they could provide. That
was a statement on the part of her Majesty's Government
which I have never heard impugned in this house, that the
state of Italy was a matter for their consideration, and that
the peace of Europe might depend on are solution. On a
question which affected the peace of Europe, the opinion of
England ought not to be left in doubt. I will now, sir,
state what is the proposal which has been made to us on
the part of the Government of the Emperor of France ; it
is not, as my noble friend the member for Haddington sup-
poses, thattho Government of Great Britain should enter
into a congress 'or conference for the purpose of consi-
dering the details of the treaty of Villafranca ; it is
of a very different nature. Ido not think I can give the
house a better conception of the nature of the proposal than
by reading an extract from Count Walewski's despatch to
Count Persigny, of which he left me a copy. I cannot
produce the preliminaries of peace -which he has also left
with me ; they are signed only by the Emperor of Austria,
and are altogether informal documents, and will require to
be turned into a treaty to be hereafter signed. The articles
of the treaty are nearly word for word the same as
those which appeared in the newspapers, and therefore it
is less necessary I should produce them ; but if there is
any wish on the part of the house that I should produce the
entire despatch from Count Walewski, I have no objection to
do so. He says :—" A French and Austrian plenipotentiary
are about to meet immediately at Zurich to convert into a
treaty of peace the bases decided upon between their Majes-
ties. You are mien by my former correspondence that the
GoVernment has always desired to see the great Powers
concur for the definitive settleme at of the affairs of Italy.
His Majesty's intentions have not altered in this respect,
and we hope that the powers will be able to meet, either in
a congress or a conference, to confer on all the questions
raised by the actual state of things in Italy, and which are
connected with general interests." I will repeat the last
words to show what it is we are asked to do. "To confer
on all the questions raised by the actual state of things in
Italy, and which are connected with general interests."
The house will observe the terms are perfectly general,
there is no reference to any treaty of peace. He adds—" I
need not add that the very nature of the new relations to
be created in Italy will imply a preliminary understanding
between the different states of the Peninsula, who will ne-
cessarily be called upon to assemble in order to deliberate
upon the bases of the Confederation, whose establishment
the two sovereigns have mutually agreed to further." Now,
sir, with regard to the course which her Majesty's Govern-
ment have thought it their duty to pursue, we have not
thought it necessary at present to give any precise answer
to the despatch. We have thanked the Emperor of the
French for the communication, but we have intimated, not
in writing, but through her Maiesty's ambassador at Paris,
that there are one or two other things necessary to be under-
stood before a conference is agreed on. One is that we
should see the treaty of Zurich, which is also to be agreed
on. We are told it is still a matter of doubt whether the
treaty of Zurich is to confirm, under the signatures of the
.plenipotentiaries, the articles agreed on by the sovereigns,
and deal with the details of the general principles they had
agreed on. The treaty, however, may contain less than
the preliminaries ; it may merely confirm the peace between
the Emperors and the King of Sardinia, and not enter into
any of the other articles, except the cession of Lombardy.
It will depend, of course, on which of these courses is taken,
and which -a ill not be known until we see the treaty of
Zurich, whether her Majesty's Government will find them-
selves in a position to advise her to accept the invitation.
(Hear, hear.) There is another point to be considered I
hold it would be utterly useless to go into any conference
unless the Emperor of Austria was a party to it ; it is un-
derstood he objected, at the time he signed the ;treaty of
Villafranca, to any conference or congrese whatever. As
to a conference of the, great Powers, from which the repre •
sentatives of Austria would be absent, and probably the
plenipotentiaries of Russia also, it would be totally useless
to call that an assembly of the great Powers, or to attempt
to settle the affairs of Italy. On these two questions, sir,
depends a third. What will be the points which the con-
ference or congress would have to consider ? The treaty of
Villafranca, I think, with regard to these questions has left
the state of Italy quite unsettled. While these are matters
of doubt, no advice given by the conference would be of any
use, and in order to settle them there must be a community
of views between the powers ; it would be just as good not
to enter into it at all as to enter it with a view to breaking
off on a divergence of view which should arise at an early
period. There are three matters of very great importance
touched on in the treaty, and in my opinion in any treaty
intended to settle the affairs of Italy these should form the
foundation of its conception and execution. It is impos-
sible to say that the treaty itself contains any settlement of
those matters which in 1856 raised the anxiety of her Ma-
jesty's plenipotentiary at Paris, which in 1857 and 1858
have been matter of deliberation among the powers of
Europe, and which were the cause of the very short and
very bloody war which has just been terminated. 1:119 first
question is raised in consequence of the strong opinion of
the Emperor of the French in favour of the project of a
confederation. The articles of the treaty do not say in
terms that a confederation shall be formed, it only states
that the two sovereigns will favour or will further the crea-
tion of a confederation. Now, sir, I believe the conception
is a wise one ; it has this foundation—the evil of Italy has
been that for centuries she has been a prey to the contend-
ing armies of foreign Powers, and if she could have an
organisation of her own, if the several states of Italy could
be united by a bond of union, bound by a federal bond,
which is one of a defensive character, such a federation
would be strong enough to withstand aggression, and
there would be no danger of, and no necessity for, the in
tervention of foreign powers. I believe, then, it was a wise
conception, but I must, at the same time say, I doubt very
much whether the time has come when such a confedera-
tion can be carried into effect. Let us see what members
are to constitute it ; it is proposed to make the Pope the
president of it ; the Emperor of Austria is to be a member
likewise, the two archdukes, and also the King of Naples
and the King of Sardinia. Now, sir, I own Ido not con-
ceal my belief that a confederation so formed is hardly for
the benefit of Italy ; it is the nature of a confederation that
those who constitute it should consider in concert all gene-
ral subjects. (Hear.) Sardinia, as we all know, and as we
have observed with satisfaction, has for some years enjoyed
free institutions, and the prosperity that belongs to them.
How could it be expected that the Pope, as chief of such a
body, and the Emperor of Austria, or one of the archdukes,
as a member, could follow such a course or favour such
views as would be put forward by the King of Sardinia or
his minister? Take, for instance, the question of liberty
of worship. a question much favoured in this country; we
have viewed with applause the establishment of freedom of

public worship at firin and in all the territories of the
King of Sardinia—(hear)—in all his states there is now
freedom of worship ; in Tuscany there is what is called li-
berty of conscience; an Italian who leaves the Catholic
Church and becomes a Brotestant:will not be allowed to
assemble for public worship ; when the confederation come
to meet and to lay down rules on this matter, how will it be
possible to reconcile the opposite views which the Pope and
the Emperor of Austria approve of with the liberty which
the Piedmontese enjoy ? It appears to me that, although
a confederation would be a good system if established in
Italy, yet the proposition made by the peace of Villafranca
will hardly fulfil the condition on which we could form a
defensive united federal union. Then, sir, there arises
another question with regard to the mode in which this
treaty is to be carried into effect ; with regard to
that it would be necessory to have a full and
complete understanding, before her Majesty's Government
would be in a position to assent to any reference to a confer-
ence of the great Powers. We all now that by an article of
the treaty, very short and someshat ambiguous, it is de-
clared that the Grand Duke of Tuscany and the Duke of
Modena are to be restored to their states. There is great
anxiety to know in what way they are to return. (Hear,
hear.) The Grand Duke of Tuscany is in this position, not
very dissimilar from one once occupied by a Sovereign in this
country : he reigned by virtue of a constitutoin ; he violated
and suppressed that constitution; his people made repre•
sentations, and called on, him to abdicate ; he did not, but
withdrew from the country. He is in the position of a
Sovereign who has violated a fundamental law, and with-
drawn from the territory over which he presided. That is a
position very unfavourable to his return ; but it may be that
the people of Tuscany, who enjoyed many years of happiness
under the mild rule of the Archduke Leopold, may desire to
recall the son of the Grand Duke who has abdicated. In-
quiry has been made with regard to this ; and I may tell
the house that, although I have no official assurance, in
fact, I feel convinced, and have very good reason to believe
that the Emperor of the French has no intention to employ
French troops for the restoration by, force of the Grand
Duke. (Hear.) I believe likewise from all I can learn, that
the Emperor of Austria has no intention—at least, he has
not avowed any—of using his troops for the purpose of re-
storing the two Grand Dukes. I think I may presume that
if he did intend, the Emperor of the French would not con-
sent. This being the case, shows at once, great difficulty
in carrying the eaty into effect; it is very doubtful what
the result will be. The people of Tuscany are now about
to choose representatives according to the constitution
which the Grand Duke had abrogated. They will
consider for themselves whether they will, as we did in
this country once, recall their Sovereign ; if so, her
Majesty's Government would not oppose it; but if the
representatives of the people of Tuscany, meeting to
declare the wishes of the people, declare that under a
certain Government, and under that alone, they can live
happily, it would be impossible for any representative of
her Majesty to go against that declaration. (Hear, hear.)
Sir, with regard to the Duke of Modena there is a great dif-
ference of opinion. Some say he would be received with
acclamation by his people; others, that he can never be
restored except by force. These are all points on which we
must have the clearest understanding before we can go into
a conference. There is yet another question the most diffi-
cult of all in Italy—l mean the temporal government of the
Pope. With regard to his supremacy, the declaration of the
Emperor of the French and of the King of Sardinia has
produced a change in Bologna and the neighbouring pro-
vinces. For the last ten years they have been kept in obe-
dience to the Pope by an Austrian garrison, which has kept
order in the town and district. Lord Lyndhurst lately
stated the number of persons that had been put to death by
the Austrians under martial law, I ;la doubt the greater
portion of these had committed robbery or other serious
crimes ; but no people like to have their criminal justice ad-
ministered by foreign troops—their own law set aside, and
martial law to be applied instead. The consequence was that
as soon as the Austrian troops left Bologna, the Cardinal
Legate immediately followed them. He went away quite
quietly in his coach, no one molested him, but he found he
must leave as soon as the Austrians went. The case puts me

in mind of a story I have heard of a previous Cardinal Le-
gate of Bologna. Every one knows they often are the
authors of very relined and witty sayings with regard to po-
litical affairs, of which, however, they are bad legislators
and administrators. The Cardinal Legate was asked how the
city of Bologna was going on. He said, " Very wel, indeed,
Ivery quietly; but as to persons attacked to the government
of his Holiness, there is nobody but the Vice-Legate and
myself, and of the Vice-Legate I am not very sure." (A
laugh.) The government of Bologna had since been carried
on by the citizens, and when Massimo d'Azeglio, a man re-
vered and beloved by all Italy, arrived with a commission
for the King of Sardinia, it was calculated 70,000 persons
attended his reception, and he was received with rapturous
applause. How is the government of the Pope to be made
palateable to the people of the Legations ? The Emperors of
France and Austria say they will recommend the Pope to
make indispensable reforms; but the Pope may say, as he
has said, " I may be driven from my throne to the most
humble village ; even there I will maintain my authority ;
but while I am on the throne I must govern according to
the dictates of my own conscience." It will be difficult to
deal with this. I am told the Pope is not averse to the con-
federation, that he has even accepted the presidency ; but
'what will then be his position ? He has always said he
ought not to mingle in affairs of war, and it is not his part
to be it the head of a confederacy which must be formed
with a view to kindle warlike operations. These, sir, are
some of the difficulties which attend this question. The
King of Naples, I am happy to learn, although he has not
done all that the friends of popular institutions would de-
sire, has made a beginning of putting an end to the system
which prevailed under the late King. It is said that amongst
the institutions of the late King—worse even than the dun-
geons in which his victims were placed--was a sort of law,
which resembled rather the custom of denouncing suspected
persons under the. Reign of Terror in France. Under this
law it was said there were in Naples 30,000 persons under
the constant surveillance of adespotic tyrannical police, and
in the provinces so many as brought the whole number to
about 'lOO,OOO. These persons were unable to practise any
learned profession, unable to leave their towns or dwellings,
constantlydodgedby the police, who by the arbitrarypowers
vested in them, became more powerful even than the sove-
reign, more powerful than the landed aristocracy, more pow-
erful than the Ministers of the Crown. The present King
of Naples had made a beginning of putting an end to this.
I believe he is sincere in his desire ; but as yet the police
have been in a great degree able to thwart his wishes, and
in many places have not carried out his desire. He has now
however, chosen a minister, the Prince of Satriano, better
known to us as General Filangieri, a man of decided views
and firm conduct, and I believe that under his advice the
state of Naples will be greatly ameliorated. Well, sir, things
have now come to this position, that there is a treaty about
to be made at Zurich, and a confidential agent of the French
Government has been sent to Vienna to settle with the
Emperor of Austria what the conditions shall be. As far as
I can learn the Emperor of the French is most anxious that
the treaty should enable the Italians generally to have the
privilege of self-government. Now, sir, whether that be
probable under one sovereign or not, or whether the re-
forms would be more secure if there were two or three
powerful states, I am convinced, and her Majesty's Govern-
ment are convinced, that an independent Italy composed of
independent states in Italy would tend to the welfare of
Europe, would avert many dangers which have arisen from
the contests of foreign powers for its fair land and fertile
1 provinces, and would give security for the future of Europe.
I cannot say it is impossible that there may be a conference
or congress; but this I will say, that it would not be wise of
her Majesty's Government, and would be still less wise for
this house to come to any absolute decision on the subject.
(Hear.) It would never do for the Ministers of the crown
of Great Britain, who have taken a part in every great con-
ference in Europe since 1815, who took a great part under
Mr. Canning in the formation of the kingdom of France—
who took a part under my noble friend the Secretary for.
Foreign Affairs in the formation of the kingdom of Belgium
and its separation from Holland—l say it would never be-
come us now suddenly, and without any reason, to with-
draw from any such meeting, any such assembly of the
different powers of Europe, if there is any chance that the
situation of Italy may be improved, peace confirmed, and
the independence of States seemed. (Hear.) At the same
time, all the conditions I have menticned must be well
considered before any such assent is given. I must say no-
thing could be worse than to act in the way my noble friend
the member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) supposed a
Government could—to sit in a conference to settle the de-
tails of a treaty which had been agreed on by the other
sovereign. No such thing has been contemplated. No
such proposal was ever made by the Emperor of the French.
He• also said, and said truly, that Italy has been a source of
constant danger, and the seat of periodical revolution, and
that the danger could not be averted, and revolution stayed,
unless the powers of Europe in general then consented to a
settlement, to which the people of Italy could give their
consent, and which would command the approval of rea-
sonable and just men ire all parts of Europe. Such being
the views of the French, and such being the difficulties on
our part, before we can take part in any such conference I
will only say that, although the right hen, gentlemen op-
posite that the regeneration of Italy as an illusion, and
deem it worthy of a sneer, I must say that if a country so
beautiful and so fertile, so endowed by nature, in which
have arisen so many men of genius of every lend—that
country which has been the subject of the same melancholy
chaunt, from the days of Petrarch in the 14th century, to
those of Leopardi in the 19th—if that country can be placed
in a position which shall give her some scope for her talents
and her energies, and shall enable her to take the place she i
ought in Europe as one of the European family, I for one,
and I apprehend the whole of her Majesty's Government,
will rejoice to see it. (Cheers.)

Mr. DISRAELI—There was one portion of the noble
lord's address which appeared to me to be somewhat more
obscure than the house will be disposed to deem desirable.
I allude to that portion of the noble lord's speech in which
he spoke of terms supposed to be offered to the Emperor of
Austria by his allies, and by him regarded as of a severer
nature than these which were extended to him by his op-
ponent. Now it would, I think, be desirable that the noble
lord, having touched upon that subject, should have given
the house, with respect to it, more information than I for
one have been able to gather from his observations. The
position of affairs is so critical ; so much depends upon the
conduct of the Government of this country at the pre-
sent moment, and the influence of Parliament owing to
the period of the year when our attention has been drawn
to these important matters is necessarily so limited, that
I shall offer no apology to the house for follow-
ing 'the noble lord through some of his remarks. In
dcing so I shall I think be simply discharging my duty to
the country and my constituents, for it is but right that
the public should be made aware of the sentiments and
opinions of the house on this great question. The noble
lord stated to the house, though in terms of a somewhat
ambiguous nature, that a declaration had been made by the
Emperor of Austria to the effect that he had consented to
conclude the present peace, which all sides appear to think
unsatisfactory, because it was shown to him that he must
expect to receive severer terms if he were to have recourse to
the mediation of his natural friends and allies. Now, I can.
not help pressing.the Government for information on that
point somewhat more clear and satisfactory than any which
we have as yet received, and I trust they will not grudge
the communication of such information to the house. Were
there not, let me ask, certain projects of settlement laid
before the Emperor of Austria which he found more severe
than those which he has accepted ? Nobody can suppose
that this matter is a pure invention of so great a personage
as the Emperor of Austria. It would, therefore, be ex-
tremely satisfactory if the noble lord could assure the house
that no projects of settlement emanating from the neutral
Powers had by their agency, or the agency of her Majesty's
Government, been brought under the notice of that Sove-
reign. The declaration of the Emperor of Austria, how-
ever, is precise. A very important neutral Power, Prussia,
has come forward and stated that she knows nothing of
such a scheme having been submittiad to her notice. Ido
not collect from the noble lord that her Majesty's Govern-
ment were equally ignorant of that circumstance. I want to
know whether they were in possession of such s scheme. I
want to know whether, through the agency of her Majesty's
Government, that scheme was placed before the Emperor
of Austria. (Hear, hear.) I think that when Ministers
come forward upon a critical occasion like this, and wish to
influence not merely the opinion but the conduct of this
house, we have aright to require from the Government liberal
communications as respects their conduct. (Hear.) It
has reached me—it may be perfectly unfounded, but it
would be a source of satisfaction to this house and the coun-
try if they were assured that it is unfounded—it has reached
me that the scheme for the settlement of hostilities which
the Emperor of Austria, comparing it with the terms offered
by his enemy, found so repugnant to his feelings and inte-
rests was brought to his cognizance through the influence
and agency of her Majesty's Government. That, surely,
is a communication which ought not to be concealed from
this house, or treated, if true, in the ambiguous manner in
which the noble lord has slightly touched upon it this even-
ing. It may be said that this plan for the settlement of
Italy, which reached the noble lord as the responsible
Minister of the Crown, and which he in his discretion took
measures to place before the Emperor of Austria, was pre-
sented without offering any opinion of his own, and that
her Majesty's Government were not, therefore, bound by it.
But if this be so, I think hon. gentlemen wil agree with me
that the very fact that her Majesty's Government were the
organs of communication by which propositions of this na-
ture were laid before the Emperor of Austria is in itself a
species of sanction of the plan which was presented. (Hear.)
And if my statement be correct—if her Majesty's Govern-
ment so far agree that what I have stated is not incorrect,
and if they defend their conduct on the plea that they gave
no opinion of the terms which they were the organ of laying
before the Emperor of Austria, it will be satisfactory to
the house, for it is of the utmost importance at this mo-
ment that we should be in possession of authentic and
ample knowledge of the subject. *(Hear, hear.) It will
be satisfactory to the house if at the same time the Minis-
ters assure us that they made no communication to her
Majesty' Minister at Vienna nor instructed that Minis-
ter to recommend Austria to accept those proposals;
because let the house for a moment consider, if what I
have stated—and I shall be glad to hear that it is utterly
unfounded—if what I have stated be correct, what
is the probable result ? The probable result is this,—
the Emperor of Austria has obtained easier terms from
his enemy than he had from those whom he has de..
(Hear,
Austrian hear.) At that time a
Government similar
to the terms which have been, through the
scribed as his natural allies. • Her Majesty's Governmenthave, in fact, again committed the same mistake which
pthroeyposciotmiontniwttaesd
made in
ylbB4Bt.he
influence of
the French Emperor, accepted. At that time the proposi-
tion was made to close disturbances in Italy by the relin-
quishment of Lombardy—the very terms which after this
bloody war have become the bases of peace. (Hear, hear.) ear,
Her Majesty's Government then was, I
may say, this very
identical Government, because affairs of this nature are
carried on by two Ministers, the First
Minister
and the
Secretary of State, and the only difference in the two re-
sponsible individuals is this, that the noble lord
First Minister and the present First Minister was then
Secretary of State. (Hear, hear.lLet was then
how completely, if this account
the fatal blunder of 1848, Then. be true, it is a repetition of
propo-
sition of Austria, and saidthat we repudiated the
yenice and the Venetian
territory -must be a part of the
Emperor of Austria. Weterritory relinquished by the
made
that a sine qua non. In
the present instance these
propositions, so slightly noticed
by the noble lord, were couched in the same vein, and con-
ceived in the same
spirit. This neutral power—this
natural ally—would not interfere
to mediate except as
terms of that severe ilaracter. But in the meantime the
enemy of the htmperor of AnstrAa offers himself milder
terns: The Emperor of Austria accents those terms.
What is our position ? The affair is settled without our
interferences and witlitoßt haying obtained those terms

which we were the organ of introducing to the Emperor d
Austria's notice. But what would our position have bed-
if when those terms of mediation were offered to us inster
of giving them the sanction of our transmission, and i'
stead of giving them the greater degree of. sanction mvolvd
inor rei‘ctoimnizeenrdinagt themthroughyiennat o
Austrian Government—if free from all prejudice ai
thetheacTpttrrceentalioftYti
all passion, which unfortunately, as it appears to in
influence the English Government when this question
before them—if we had said to France, " Those tern
which you offer are too severe ; although in their goner,
spirit we agree with you they must be modified, and we wi
then recommend the Emperor of Austria to accept them If her her Majesty's Government had done that if tin
had been the means of the Emperor of Austria acceptin
the terms &which ultimately from the Emperor of ti
French- he accepted, in what a different position we shoul
stand to France and Austria. We should be in agreat po
sition. We should be a powerful mediator between Franc
and Austria for the general welfare of Europe, and Austri
would not look upon us as one who had deserted her, Aus
tria would not look upon us with ill will, though speakin,
of ns as her natural ally, but as one to whom she was in
debted for the terms which she now only owes to her Brea
opponent. _ (Hear, hear.) I thiuk that is a point upor
which her Majesty's Government ought to deign to givd
more information to the house. (Cheers.) If it be tram
that her Majesty's Government, with all the experience c
1848, with the immense advantages which they have ha
in dealing with this question which they had not 10 year
ago, have repeated the same blunder, renewed the gam'
mistake, and placed the country with regard to this ques
tion in so unsatisfactory a position, they owe much expla-
nation,to Parliament. (Hear.) Let me turn now to thepress
ing business of the moment. No doubt, if not to-night
on some other night adequate information will be afforde,
thupoontrathateypoofffivtfloianfranwhioachanldhtahvies
ptoroupochaegion,Buwit lteht uvishilootwa:
become acquainted for the first time to-night, for Engler:lr
to assist in carrying that treaty into effect, because that it
the real question. Any conference or congress after articles
of peace are concluded, attended by a Power who has had
nothing to do with the war either by action or by advice, is
in fact being called in to carry a peace into effect with which
that Power has nothing to do, and arising out of a war in
which she has not in any way been connected. Ido not
mean to say that there are not grave circumstances which
may justify such a course on the part of the Government of
this country. I wish to treat the question with that tempe-
rateness which it requires, and in which spirit, from its se-
rious character, it behoves us to approach it. The noble
lord says that this Treaty of Villafranca must be considered
under twe heads. In the first place, he says there was a con-
siderable change of territory from this peace, but it was not
a change of territory which in any way, or materially, af-
fected the balance of power. Therefor', so far as that con-
sideration was concerned, it was unnecessary for England
to attend the congress. I think it will be found, as a general
rule which should guide us in these matters, that it never is
the interest of this country to attend a congress unless what
is called the balance of power is materially affected. The
balance of power is a phrase sometimeatreated with deri-
sion by those who do not understand it--(laughter)—l paean,
by it a change of territory which might create a pre-
ponderance of a Power perhaps already toopowerful. I ere&
with the noble lord that there is nothing in the fact o f the
transference of Lombardy from Austria to Sardinia wkdch
at all affects the balance of power, and therefore, on that
head, I agree with the noble lord that our interferer.De fcrr the
present cannot for a moment be recommended. i main
as a general rule that we should attend no conference n here
thebalance of power is not affected, and the instances which
the noble lord mentioned at the end of his
_speech confirm
and do not impugn the accuracy of that principle, because
the balance of power might have been materially affected by
the construction of the kingdom of Greece, and no one canfor
a moment contend that it was not materially concerned in the
settlement of Belgium. (Hear.) But, says the noble lord,
although the balance of power is not concerned in this
transference of a single province from Austria to Sardinia,
there is a second head under which we must consider. this
Treaty of Villafranca, and to what it will lead, and Vaat is,
what the noble lord calls the future of Italy. Now the, future
of Italy is a subject of very great interest. The noble lord
says I have treated the future of Italy with a sneer. I have
so often had opportunities of speaking on this subject in this
house, and I have had the misfortune to differ from the
noble lord so frequently upon it, that I will not take the
trouble now to vindicate my opinions, as I wish to speak on
the points of business before us. But I tell the noble loud
this—that it is his misfortune to believe that there exit its
throughout Italy a Whig party, and until he gets that id lea,
out of his head he will never be able to consider the quest ion
in a manner becoming a statesman of his degree. (He: Sr.)
It has always been the fashion of the noble lord, when spat- k-
ing of Italy, to speak of establishing a sort of Brooke s's
Club at Florence, and that he calls poetry. (A fang in)
Whenever he begins to speak of Petrarch I know what it is
going to lead to. (A laugh.) Several times he has done
this when we have discussed the question before, ain't the
noble lord will allow me to refer him to some observe .tions,
which a little nettled him some years ago when w e dis-
cussed this question. I told the noble lord then that tbranourse
he was recommending was one which must end in the non-
fusion of Italy—(hear; hear)—and which would bring into
active operation all the secret societies of that country—
(hear, hear)—and that, if he thought the regeneration of
Italy could be effected by the secret societies of that coun-
try, he would find that he was only playing the game of
some great military despot, who would mean the profit.
But now, says the noble lord, we must look to future of
Italy. We must look to the future of Italy, be cause, when
my Lord Clarendon attended the Conference at Paris, after
the Russian war, her Majesty's Government were commit-
ted to a policy which ac owledged that it was their duty
to counsel, and, if possible, to effect changes in that mis-
governed country. Well, but what was the position of Lord
Clarendon after the Russian war? It Is very true that
Lord Clarendon, knowing that at that time, as had often.
before been the case, but especially so at that time, the stone of Italy was one which might lead to public disquietyle,
like a wise man—and I give his colleag-ues credit for shar-
ing the same sensible views--thought that that wasa period
when, generally speaking, something like a wide settlement
of the various parts of Europe should be made by the con-
ference, and that Italy should not be omitted—that that
was a moment in which to recommend a course of polioy
which would prevent future disturbance and trouble, Ido
not, of course, object to the course which he took. As I
stated the other night, it was exactly the same vi-ew which
induced the late Government to recommend a congress with
regard to the affairs of Europe. What you retomrnend be-
fore a war takes place, and much more whet you recom-
mend in order to prevent a war, is a very different coursed
from what you ought•to sanction and recommend after wrzr
has broken out, has been waged, and is conclirded. (Cheel-s.)
Why a congress is a very dangerous thing at all times, but
it is never more dangerous than, in such a case as *am pre-
sent. War is a thing which no one in the abstract approves,
does
and which, general
because ly speaking, we endeavour te, avoid, but
not follow war is generally to be avoided that
you ought not to. go to war if necessary. If a congress was
the course which, when there was a chance of preventing
war, ought to be recommended, it was the du e Go-
vernment to recommend it. But the policywhich Lord
Clarendon recommended and supported at the Conference
of Paris, though to a certaid degree it might involve in-
terference in Italy, which, considering that at that time
there was imminent danger of some distnrbance,
offered to assembled Europe an opportunity of ,
preventing it. But, says the noble lord, after
offering a great many /arguments gen
the eral tendency
of which was to prove that if we wanted to ep to the con-
gress we could not go—(a laugh)—a. congre.ss, speaking in
the abstract, was the proper mode of settling this matter.
The noble lord acknowledges that he cannot accept this in-
vitation unless a like invitation is made by the Emperor of
Austria, and we have not heard that any invitations of that
kind have been offered. But if the noble lord interested in
the future of Italy were at once, in consequence of the
treaty of Villafranca, to attend the conference in order to,
advance the future interests of that country, would he not
be bound by the conditions contained in that treaty with
reference to the future governraent of Italy What was
the great object recommended at Paris by the French Gs-
vernment, and I believe by the English Government ? It
was to establish in Italy a secularisation of the Roman
States. (Hear, hear.) The great point was virt to
reduce the Pope to the exercise of his spiritual power.
by the treaty of Villafranca, I contend that the Pope is to. be the head of a great confederation. The two policies are
exactly contrary to each other. If you go to this congress,
will you deal with the Duchies ? The noble lord says the
Duchies are not to be dealt with ; and though he has no
authority for saying so, his instinctive feeling is that France
will not interfere by force in favour of the rejected rulers of
the Duchies. He has reason to hope and believe that Aus-
tria also will refrain from using force in their favour, and
I think very properly. Well, how is the affair to be settled?
Why, it is not be settled by the interference of any Power
in Italy. The noble lord says that the people of this germ-
try would not for a moment tolerate an interference by Eng-
land in order to place the rejected rulers upon their thrown.
(Hear, hear.) If that is the case what is the use of going
to the conference? (Hear.) The noble lord has touched.
upon three points on which he thinks discussion will arise
if this conference takes place. First of all, he says there is.
the principle of confederation which he approves of; but he
says, practically it would not work well in the presentarietsytaoterf
coireflumialyst.anceTshweniththwehincehb,laet
present,lord
d,
aai a variety
the principle
of confederation would unsatisfactorily cope. But these
questions of religious toleration and free worship to which
rrpinienot,
isCoadnfaepdteerad loon;
the noble lord referred would not come under the control of
a confederation. (Hear, hear.) They would be matter, to be settled by each separate Gove
the idea of which is sound, inn my
country if the people of that country could work it out;
and the objections which the noble lord urged against a
With all his anxiety to
confederation would not apply.
effect the regeneration of Italy, and with all his equal
anxiety to attend the congress for that object, the noble lord,
to-night has urged objection.s against that part of the plan
which I hope may be practical,, but which at least is recom-
wifurtatchhcioeirdinsa,thif,geintpoathhpieasltvihiGero_wl
mended by many high political considerations. Well, then,
if according to the noble lord's views the confederation
drawn
therer ainstance,
wprinciplesint
tiaoslo bl
this ote nhtoat ot interference
e alocftku
toow b
el ne d
dg et
oha tDi
congress?
(Hear, hear.) The state of Italy
';ernmen.t, why, I ask is it advisable that we should be
as sketched out by the articles of the Villafranca treaty is.
deemed, I know, by many gentlemen on both sides of this
house to be of an unpromising character. If the congress
is to proceed according to the articles of the Villafranca
treaty, our Government in accepting the invitation to attend
the congress would accept a responsibility which I am sure
no one here would wish to sane ion. If we are to enter into
conference in order to bring about a state of society in Italy
not contemplated by those who have carried on this war,
I ask this house for a moment to consider what is to be
the issue of our labours. Either we shall fail in our
object or we shall not. If failure be the result all will
regret our interference ; but if we carry our object into
effect—if we establish in Italy
has a state of society at all
like the programme of Milan or the programme
of
Tiverton—we must do so by offering inducements
to_ the
other great Powers which I am sure Parliament Ns voiilotot
not
approve of. If, under all circumstances, w
chary about the engagements which conferencesbee should be
enanwd
waged,
of con-
gresses always lead to, surely
when a war
of which we entirely disapproved, when it has been closed
on a sudden, when the responsibility of all that has occurred
and of all that may occur is one of which this Government
is completely clear, it would be the height of rashness and
precipitation by any act or anyof a
settlement occasionedby
advice of ours to involve
ourselves in the responsibility
ine •h we are not answerable. (Hear.) I trust,
therefbre,
that the feeling of the house will be so direct and
a war for which
ot feel it their duty to recommend her Majesty to send any
distinct upon this subject that her Majesty's Ministers will
representative to this projected conference. I have no doubt
there are immense difficulties in consequence of the war and
in consequence of the peace. We had nothing to do with
the war;, we hid nothing to do with the peace, and if diffi-
culties arise in which we must interfere, we shall interfere
with much greater effect and much more dignity if we are
not introduced in the last act in order to save other persons:
from difficulties which they had created, and for which we'
are not answerable. (Hear, hear.) There is only one ob-
servation which I would make in consequence of thei ntie
mation which the noble lord gave us, that la telegram '