The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-06 00:00:00

gestion, although in some matters of detail it was not com-
pletely in accordance with the recommendation of the corn-,
missioners. The bill proposed that a number not exceeding
30,000 men should be invitedto enrol themselves for a period
of five years; that for that term each man should receive £5
per annum • that they should be called out for training for 28
days in the year, and that during that time they should
receive non-continuous service pay according ta the rating
they might hold. It was also proposed that at the expira-
tion of the five years these men should have the option of
retiring from the force, or of re-enrolling themselves for
a further period of five years. If the country should remain
at peace they would each during their five years' service
have received a sum of £25 in addition to the month's pay
during their training, and if they were enrolled at the ex-
piration of 10 years' service they would be entitled to pen-
sions. Supposing, however, that this country should un-
hapily be involved in war, it was proposed that by Royal
proclamation these men should be at once called upon to
enter for active service in the fleet in any part of the world.
There would be a claim upon their services for three years
certain, and if at the end of that period war did not cease
power was given by the bill to require them to serve for
two years more, they receiving at the same time the pay of
continuous service men, which would be 2d. a-day addi-
tiOnal for the last two years, whatever rating.they might
hold. In the event of war, therefore, the services of these
men could be counted upon for a period of five years. There
were seine details with regard to this subject, especially re-
specting. pensions, which it would be difficult to embody in
a legislative measure. The Board of Admiralty had consi-
dered very carefully the proposals of the Royal commission
as to the deferred pensions at the age of 50 or 55, and it was
thought that under some circumstances it would be a hard-
ship upon seamen if the Government were restricted to the
power of granting pensions at those ages. Cases might oc-
cur in which seamen had served faithfully during war, and
had suffered in health, and, although not eligible for pen-
sions in consequence of wounds, the grant of pensions might
be perfectly justifiable. On the other hand, supposing the
country to remain at peace, it became a question whether a
man who had entered the force at the age of 20 years, and
who had served for 10 years, should be entitled to claim the
same amount of pension as if he had been engaged in active
service before an enemy. It was thought, therefore, that it
would be a matter of great difficulty to deal with the ques-
tion of pensions by an act of Parliament, and it was consi-
dered that the better course would be to leave these details
to the regulation of the Admiralty, if the house gave its as-
sent to this bill. (Hear.) He was bound to tell the house
that this was only an experiment. (Hear, hear.) They
had no experience to guide them on the subject, and there-
fore he could not tell the house that he felt confidence that
the plan would be perfectly successfal. He hoped, how-
ever, that it would be successful, and he was sure that was
the feeling of the House of Commons and of the public.
(Hear, hear.) His opinion was that the best mode of at-
taining a successful result would be not to tie the hands of
the Admiralty by Acts of Parliament ; but ho trusted that
by communication with the Board of Trade, with the ship-
ping masters, and with that efficient officer, Captain Brown,
the Registrar-General of Seamen, and other persons con-
nected with the merchant service, they might be enabled to
frame regulations which would induce our merchant sea-
men to flock to the Royal navy. (Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that men-of-war's men did not thoroughly under-
stand the merchant sailors. (Hear, hear.) There had been
a misunderstanding in the navy with regard to the merchant
service ; and he knew that merchant seamen had said they
would be delighted to serve in the navy if they were satis-
fied they would be treated in the manner to which they
thought themselves entitled. He could only say that the
Board of Admiralty desired most ardently to effect a good
-understanding between the merchant service and the Royal
navy, and to establish between the two services feelings of
mutual respect and affection. (Hear, hear.) This bill was
the first endeavour to establish such a good understanding,
and if the attempt proved successful they would induce a
great number of merchant seamen, during their period of
28 day's training., to see ships of war for themselves ; they
would find that the men were idndly treated, that they re-
ceived good food and good pay, and the result would pro-
bably be that many of them would be induced to join her
Majesty's service. If this result could be attained, instead
of endeavouring to retain men in the Royal navy by mea •
sures of harshness and ses erity, the greatest punish-
ment that could be held out in terrorem would be dis-
missal from the service. (Hear, hear.) If the house
assented to this bill he believed such regulations
might be framed as would induce merchant sea-
men to come forward and to form an invaluable reserve for
the royal navy. In the February number of the Revue des
Deux liondes there was a passage in an article attributed to
a distinguished naval officer, the Prince de Joinville, to
which he might call the attention of the house. The writer
said :—" On a vu quelquefois le genie d'un homme impro-
viser tine armee , jamais une marine." That statement was
true. A navy could not be extemporised. (Hear.) It was ne-
cessary to have trained seamen, and the state of naval pre-
paration maintained by the French nation enabled them to
afford to disarm at once, because they knew perfectly well
that within a week their fleet could be manned. He believed
that the declared intention of the Emperor of the French to
disarm was faithful and honest, but the French, after dis-
arming, could arm again in a week with the utmost facility.
He thought, therefore, that this great maritime country
ought to be in a position to disarm; but if they allowed
their seamen to leave the naval service, as was the case at
present, they had no reserves. If, however, they had a valu-
able reserve of seamen, they could afford to imitate the ex-
ample of other nations ; and he hoped that if the house as-
sented to this bill they would be placed in that position.
Mr. LINDSAY said the problem the Royal Commission
on the navy were required to solve was, to obtain a reserve
at the smallest cost to the country, and with the least dis -
turbance to its industrial resources. He had the misfortune
to differ with his colleagues on the commission, and he
thought they had not solved that problem. According to
the estimate of the commissioners, the cost of the plan
they recommended would be £598,3111, but he believed that
large as that amount was, it would not suffice to carry
out their recommendations. The cost of a coastguard
force of 2,000 men was £116,000 a year, while the estimate
for 4,000 men as a reserve for the home force was only
£132,000 ; but he thought it would be nearer the mark if
it were calculated at Z 200,000. In 18,52 a committee
of naval officers inquired into the best mode of
manning the navy, and they recommended increased
pay in one shape or other, which entailed upon the con-
trary an expenditure of £150,000; yet in 18,54, two years
afterwards, the hon. and gallant member for Southwark
(Sir C. Napier) found great difficulty in manning theßaltic
fleet. It appeared, therefore, that this extra expenditure
did not enable the country to obtain what it required. He
found that the Admiralty were now paying about £lOO,OOO
a year to seamen in the navy for provisions which were not
consumed • but why was not care taken that provisions of
inferior quality were not supplied to the men ?He believed
that the extra drill enforced in some of her Majesty's ships,
and the provisions of the Articles of War, which imposed
the penalty of death for nearly every offence enumerated in
them, tended to deter merchant seamen from entering the
Royal navy. It was now proposed to form a reserve of
seamen to be available in case of emergency, but at this
moment they had in the Royal navy a staff of effective offi-
cers barely sufficient for a peace establishment. He would
recommend, therefore, that when they were inviting sea-
men of the merchant service to join their reserve force they
should extend the same invitation to the officers of that ser-
vice. (Hear.) Some slight distinguishing mark—some
badge to show that they Were officers of the reserve—which
would give them a better position in society, especially
abroad, would have a far greater effect than any pecuniary
inducement in leading a number of the finest young seamen
to be found in this country to enter the navy in that capa-
city. Independently of the services which these young men
would be able to render as seamen, he believed they would
be found most valuable as recruiting officers for the navy
among the body of seamen with whom they were connected.
(Hear.) He would recommend, therefore, that this bill
should not be now pressed, but that the whole subject
should be reconsidered by the Admiralty; and that before
an attempt was made to form a reserve force of seamen
the Articles of War should be altered, excessive and
unnecessary drill should be abolishod, flogging should
either be altogether abandoned, or such a punish-
ment should only be inflicted by sentence of court-
martial, and along with the reserve of merchant seamen the
officers of the merchant service should also be invited to
enter that force.
Sir C. NAPIER gave the Admiralty credit for

being now sincere in -their desire to adopt necessary
steps with reference to the Royal Navy, and
they were going to work in earnest. He considered that
corporal punishment should still be retained in the service,
and he believed that nine out of ten of those acquainted
with the subject would say, that without such punishment
it would be impossible to maintain discipline. He consi-
dered, however, that there might be some alterations in-
troduced which would be of great benefit, and which would
render the condition of the men in the Royal Navy more
comfortable, and the service more attractive. He ob-
jected to the clause in the bill by which it was provided
that at the expiration of ten years the reserve volunteer
corps should receive a pension even in time of peace, be-
cause it was not equitable to place this force on the same
footing as those engaged during war.
Sir F, BARING said the great difficulty was that in a
case of emergency and war they had to go into a limited
market for seamen. Without taking proper measures they
never would be able to find men enough m a case of emer-
gency. He was glad to find the system of impressment be-
coming more unpopular amungt naval officers than was
formerly the case. There might be extraordinary cases in
which all the laws of political economy, as well as of politi •
cat justice, might be suspended, but as an ordinary means
of filling the navy the system of impresement was abandoned,
So far from being a good mode of getting men, it rather
ternded to drive them away to foreign countries, and to nar-
row the market. Without concurring in the adage that the
hest
way to preserve peace was to be prepared for war, he had
no doubt whatever that the best mode of preserving peace
Walt
Basil° have
a good naval reserve. (Hear, hear.) He could
them that if persons who had filled the situation he
once held were sure that the country had a good naval
re-
serve it would enable first lords of the Admiralty to sleep leepinpeace, which was not always the case. It was impossible to
say whether the reserve would be ready when a war broke
out. That could only be determined by the breaking out of
war itself. However, he thought
tt the experiment would be
tha
successful. He rejoiced he scheme was not coupled with
that of the naval schools. It was proposed to increase the
Now
copest guards and the marines.he suggested that they
should have as many coast guards as thea protection of the
Cu Atoms required, but let them not fancy they had a good
na val force because they had an increase of coast guards. In
the same rumm o
er he should say that they ought not t
poach
on the
annyfor the purpose of increasing their marines. With
reard difficulty.
to the peace establishment there was nar:
g
Tboa difficulty was when a case of emergency arose. It was
supposed that the system of continuance service would enablethem to man the ships m
• ore readily than heretofore. But he
found that the late Admiralty Board had recourse to a high
boienty
in
not sow that the time of peace. That did h
con-
tinuance service system had been very successful. He was
spaLeking of manning , there
the ships in time of fleece • for
was no difficulty in manning a ship when in commission.
H - did the continuance service act with regard
to the men ?
Ti tel I Lon. gentleman opposite
. and the hon. an gallant gentle-
= in spoke in favour of ly contact. But the
bringing the merchant service and
na val service into closer and more friend
eff act of the continuance service was to keep
me the two servkces
ire distinct than before. (Hear.) The return of able sea-
me to showed that there were more ordinary seamen_thhanriac,ble
sea men amongst the continuance service men. rk
hoi t . gentleman,quoted Sir R. Bromley to show that more
clnt inuance service men deserted than others. How did the
cyst` en work in time of war ? Did they want the rieetior
peas 3 or war ? That seemed a simple question, but a great
deal, lay under it. Under the old systole) the men had a turn
in na val service and in the merchant service. But under the
prese at system the result was, that the naval service was
very much confined to continuance service men, whilst in
the an erchant service there would be no men who had been
in the , naval se-..vice. The French system had been much
pra isok 1, but others did not draw the same conclusion as he
aid '.ira,m it. The French system drew all the sailors of the
Fr cinch marine into the fleet for three years, after which
the tr were sent back. But that was the very opposite of
the ) continuance service system. (Hear, hear.) Prussia
act aid in the same manner with regard to the training of her
so] ;fliers. He thought they ought to act in the same way
la; th regard to their navy. (Hear, hear.) But the continu-
an es system was the very opposite. (Hear.) He thought it

right to throw out these observations for the consideration
of the house. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. ELPHIN STONE was glad to see a bill introduced
at last on the subject, and if it was not in its present shape
all that they might desire, he hoped it would tie made so.
He thought it a good system to send the marines'to garrison
the naval ports. With regard to the continuance system, it
was his opinion that it had never been properly tried. No
man ought to be made a continuance service man who was
not an able seaman. Impressment, he believed, was gone for
ever, and that would remove a cloud which hung heretofore
over the-sailor's mind. If the Admiralty followed the recom-
mendation of the royal commission they would remove most
of the objections which sailors felt on entering the navy.
The hon. gentleman, in reference to punishment in the
navy, stated that in the East India Company's fleet, on
board which he served from 1819 to 1835, discipline had
been effectively maintained by the adoption of a system
which was at once firm but just. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CARDWELL said that the system of continuance
had not yet had a fair trial. The object of that system was
to keep men who had acquired a knowledge of naval gun-
nery on board the fleet. When they had it in evidence
that 60,000 British seamen were engaged on board Ameri-
can vessels precaution should be taken, if possible, to pre-
serve these men for their own fleet. The continuance
system was recommended by men of the highest authority
in 1852. In 1853 it was first carried into effect ; and the
manning commission stated that so far as it had been
carried out it was successful. The most successful
part of that system was the training of boys for the navy
in the training ships. The boys of the merchant service
and the Queen's service were trained in the same ship,
which promoted a good feeling between both. With regard
to the coast-guard service, they found that it was inade-
quate even for revenue purposes. But the 12,000 men of
which that service consisted was important in other re-
spects, and was valuable as a force which would not only
enable them to commence a war, but to continue a war when
commenced. If the system proposed was carried into effect
they would have a reserve, first of the coast-guard service,
then of 30,000 men from the merchant service, and that at
so small an expense that it was not worth being taken into
consideration in comparison of the results to be obtained.
(Hear.) Let them begin with boys, accustom them early
to pay and pension, let them abolish the system of impress-
ment, and he believed that in a short period, and at a com-
paratively small expense, the whole naval population of the
country would take a pleasure in the navy, and be practised
in the system of naval gunnery. He believed they would
have a naval force which would make them completely safe
and secure. (Hear, hear.)
The house then went into committee, and the first three
clauses were agreed to.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATON) BILL.
The Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill to apply a
sum out of the Consolidated Fund, and the surplus of ways
and means, to the service of the year 1859, and to appro-
priate the supplies granted in this session of Parliament,
was read a first time.
WAYS AND MEANS.

The house then went into a committee of ways and
means.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in the
absence of Mr. LainF, moved the following resolution :
"That, towards raising the supply granted to her Majesty,
in lieu of the stamp duties contained in the schedule to the
act passed in the 55th year of the reign of King George the
Third, chapter 184, and now payable upon probates of wills
and letters of administration in England and Ireland, and
upon inventories to be exhibited and recorded in any com-
missary Court in Scotland, where the estate and effects
for or in respect of which such probate or letters of admi-
nistration shall be granted, or whereof such inventory shall
be exhibited or recorded, shall be of the value of one mil-
lion pounds or upwards, there shall be charged and paid
the following duties respectively (that is to say) :—For
every £lOO,OOO of the whole value of such estate and effects,
and any fractional part of £lOO,OOO, where the deceased
shall have left any will or testament, or testamentary dis-
position, of his personal or moveable estate and effects, the
stamp duty of £1,500; and where the deceased shall not
have left any such will or testament, or testamentary dis-
position, the stamp duty of £2,250.
The following bills were severally read a third time and
passed :—Probates and Letters of Administration (Ireland)
Bill ; Police (Counties and Boroughs) Law Amendment
Bill ; Turnpike Trust Arrangements Bill , Chief Superin-
tendent (China) Bill ; and Speaker of the Legislative
Council (Canada) Bill.
The Poor Law Boards (Payment of Debts) Bill passed
through committee pro forma.
The house suspended its sitting until six o'clock,

The house resumed at six o'clock.
BODMIN ELECTION COMPROMISE.

The CLERK having read the order of the day for the ad-
journed debate, and the order for Dr. Michell's attendance
in his place,
Sir G. GREY said that the hon. member for Bodmin
could not be supposed to have any knowledge of what had
taken place the day before. It was not proper for any
member to derive his knowledge of what took place in the
house from the public prints, and the object of desiring the
hon. member's attendance was to enable him to hear the
charge, and he would therefore suggest that the hon. and
learned member for Sheffield should repeat his statement.
Mr. ROEBUCK was quite prepared to do so. He had
stated that a petition had been presented against the return
of the hon. member for Bodmin, that the petition charged him
with corrupt practices; he had said also that the petition was
withdrawn, and had been withdrawn in consideration that
the hon. gentleman would at the end of the session apply for
the Chiltern Hundreds, and retire from the house.
Dr. MICHELL said he held in his hand an order direct-
ing him to attend at five, and he was in his place in obe-
dience to it. He had to apologise to the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield for not bhaving attended to the note
which he had received from him : I intend at six this
evening to bring under the notice of the house.report
which has reached me, that you have entered into an en-
gagement to retire from the house at the end of the session,
in consideration that the petition presented against your
return should be withdrawn. I should not like to make the
statement, you being absent. I hope, therefore, it may be
possible for you to be present.—l am, &c., J. A. ROE-
BUCK." He was in the library when the statement was
made, and knew nothing of the matter until he returned
home at ten minutes to seven, when he found the letter,
and it was then too late, as the hour named was six o'clock.
If the honourable and learned member for Sheffield had
come to him and asked for an explanation of the whole
thing, he would have had no occasion to trouble
the house or to have got him into that difficulty.
His explanation would have been that he acted
perfectly right in justice to himself and to others.
He was not a person of sufficiently affluent means to resist
a petition in that house. (Hear, hear.) If there was any
fault, it was in the rules of the house, which rendered it
impossible for any man of small means to retain a seat in
the house if any person chose to present a petition against
him. (Hear.) He had means sufficient to keep him in re-
spectability, but he could not afford to spend £3,000 or
£4,000 in bringing witnesses up some 300 miles. Under
such circumstances if he had allowed the petition to go on,
and had defended himself against the charges made against
him, he would have placed himself in difficulties for the
whole of his future life. (Hear, hear.) If he had had a
large fortune he would have fought it, or if the house would
bear him out in the expense he would not strike—(hear,
hear)—but he was not going to ruin himself and those
dependent on him. He appreciated the honour of a seat
in the house, but not to the ruin of himself and those
who depended on him. On that ground, and on that ground
alone, he had assented to the arrangement. He had at
first thought the petition was a joke ; like all the rest, it
charged bribery, corruption, and everything. On the prin-
ciple of the old lawyer, by charging everything it was sure
to catch you in something. (Laughter.) The petition was
so general, he thought there was nothing at all in it ; but
when he found theywere determined to persevere he told Mr.
Wyld that he did not intend, and he never had intended to
defend his seat. The house would bear in mind that since
the petition was presented he had not taken part in a single
division. (Hear, hear.) He admitted he fully intended to
resign his seat after he found it was intended to follow up the
petition, but he would solemnly assert there was no sort of
corrupt compromise. The only compromise was this—his
object was that the petitioners should come forward and by
withdrawing the petition withdraw all charges against him :
but if he had allowed the petition to go to a committee
and declined to defend his seat, it would be said he did not
defend it because he was afraid to do so, and he would be
obliged to submit to the imputation that all the charges
were true. He thought it was a better plan—not knowing
that he was offending against any rule of the house—that
they should exonerate him from all charges, and that he
should resign his seat. Under these circumstances he left
it to the house to judge of the principle on which he acted.
(Hear, hear.) He left it in their hands. (Hear, hear.) He
could not afford to fight the petition, but if any one would
back him in the expense, he would fight it to the last.
(" Hear, hear," and cheers.)
No other hon. member having risen to address the house,
The SPEAKER put the question on Mr. Roebuck's re-
solutidn.
After a division had been called for, ,
Lord JOHN MANNERS rose, but was called to order.
The house divided—
For the motion 3O
Against
The following members voted in the minority:—
Burrell, Sir C., Bt. Ingestre, Viscount Tollemache, J. H.
Dickson, Col. McEvoy, E. Torrens, R.
Disraeli, Benjamin Mowbray, Rt. Hn. J. Vance, John
Elmley, Viscount Noble, J. Vansittart, Wm.
Elphinstone, Sir J. Northcote, Sir S. H. Whiteside, Rt Hn J.
Gard, R. S. Pakenham, Col. Whitmore, H.
Garnett, W. J. Paull, H. Williams, T. P.
Hadfield, Geo. Sclater-Booth, G. Williams, W.
Hennessy, J. P. Seymour, Dlgby TELLERS.
Hopwood, J. T. Smith, A. Roebuck, J. A.
Hume, W. Tite, Wm. Griffith, C. D.