The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-05 00:00:00

and the Royal Academy towards each other.

Your

lordships are aware that for a series of years there has
been a growing feeling that the building occupied partly by
the national collection of pictures and partly by the Royal

Academy was insufficient, and that it was desirable to

separate one portion from the other. For a long time the
question has been agitated whether the National Gallery
should be removed and the Academy left in possession
of the original site, but the result of inquiries by commis-
sions and committees appears upon the whole to be that
there is no site better calculated than the existing National

Gallery for the exhibition of the pictures which belong to
tho nation. That being the case, it was thought that some

other place should be found for the Royal Academy. In
that state of things the late Government purchased Bur-
lington-house, with the gardens and court-yard attached
In order to give some idea of the extent of space required,

I may state that the extent of the National Gallery is
13,000 square feet, while the superficial area of Brrlington-
house and grounds is 143,000 feet, or nearly eleven times
as much. It must not, however, be supposed that there are
not numerous claims on this valuable site—(hear)--and en-
gagements have been entered into with various land
societies for portions of that space. I have here a list of
those societies which have received promises of that nature.
They are the Royal Academy, the Patent-office, the London
University, the Royal Society, the Linnaoan Society, and
the Chemical Socieiy. But, besides these, the Astrono-
mical, the Geological, the Antiquarian, the Ethnological,
the Asiatic, and the Water Colours Societies, which are
now located in Somerset-house, are claimants for accom-
modation in Burlington-house, while strong recommenda-
tions have been made to the Government of allotting a
portion of this site to the Geographical and Statistical
Society. Under these circumstances you will, I am sure,
admit that it is a matter of some difficulty to meet those
various conflicting claims ; but the principle on which
the arrangement with the Royal Academy is to be carried
out has been entirely agreed upon, the settlement of
details being left as a matter for future consideration be-
tween it and the Government. The principle of the
arrangement is this—it appears to me to be a reason-
able one—that, in order to secure the Royal Academy from
the inconveniences attendant upon frequent change of
place, to afford them more ample accommodation than they
now possess, and, at the same time, to provide for the pub-
lic at large that amount of space hich is necessary to the
adequate realisation of the specific objects which the
Academy has in view, they should, out of their own funds,
obtain for themselves a site, to be conveyed to them in free-
hold, whereby they would be relieved from all apprehension
of future removal, while the advantage would be conferred
upon the country of having a building suited to the pur-
poses for which the Royal Academy is designed. (Hear,
hear.) The proposition made to them, therefore, was that
a considerable portion of the site of Burlington-house
should be appropriated to their use, and should be male
over to them in fee simple, upon condition that upon that
site they should erect a building adapted to the purpose of
the Academy, and not in its style and character incongruous
with those other buildings which may hereafter be erected
in the same locality. (Hear, hear.) Neither the precise site
nor the exact extent of space to be allotted at Burlington-
house to the Academy has as yet been decided upon. These
points are under negotiation ; but I understand that they
desire to have half of the entire frontage of thepresent build-
ing facing Piccadilly, and also a large portion of one of its
sides. Now, that application for no less than half of a site
143,000 due respect
e es
pq
eueatr square feeter t
he is
think-
ing,
occupyingwi
h all
Aca-
demy, of rather an extensive character, considering that
there are six other societies to whom, as I have alreadysaid,
promises of accommodation have been made, and seven or
laboursonel cannot
of t Rheolyp.al
eight whose claims have been strongly pressed upon the
attention of the Government. (Hear.) Her Majesty's Mi
nisters, however, have deemed it right to ascertain, in the
first instance, what amount of space the Royal Academy
nett
reasonablyplace,
h eI.
rb: supposedth
to
want, and, in the
them so large a por-
tion of ground, to be assured that the amount of their funds
is such as would enable them to cover, either now or at
some future time, with buildings adapted to the objects of
the institution, the whole of the site which they require.
(Hear, hear.) We have taken this course because it ap-
peared to us it would be extremely undesirable and impolitic
to assign to the Royal Academy, or to any society, a con-
siderable space of valuable land, part of which, while they
did not need it themselves, they would prevent others from
occupying. (Hear, hear.) Of course, so far as the advan-
tages of securing to them a 'particular aspect and a suffi-
cient amount of light are concerned—matters so necessary
for the purposes of the Academy—her Majesty's Govern-
ment are disposed to deal with them with the utmest favour

; and liberality in making their selection of a site. (Hear,
l hear.) The price paid for the entire site of Burlington-
house amounts to no less a sum than £140,000; and if,
therefore, we should comply with the wishes of the Royal
Academy, we should be allowing them a space of ground
of the value of £70,000, which is a very considerable
sum to dispose of to any one society. (Hear.) I thought it
• right to make this explanation to your lordships, and to
inform you that the site to be set apart for the Royal Aca-
demy, and the principle on which we propose to act in deal-
ing with it, have been areed upon. As to the amount of
land to be allotted to them, and the particular position
which they are to occupy at Burlington-house I can only
say that these are questions the solution of which must to a
certain extent depend upon the claims of those other socie-
ties to whom promises have been made, and also upon the
sufficiency of the funds of the Royal Academy to enable
them adequately to occupy the ground which may be as-
signed for their use. (Hear, hear.)
Lord MONTEAGLE said it was an error to suppose that
the building originally occupied by the Royal Academy be-
longed to the Crown, the fact being that it was public pro-
perty, and had been erected at the public expense. He was
glad to hear the explanation which had just been given by
his noble friend opposite, and in no portion of his statement
did he more cos rally concur than that from which it ap-
peared that the Government were prepared to paydue regard
to the claims of other societies, and not to allow a site of such
immense value as Burlington-house, situated as it was in
the centre of the metropolis, to be monopolised by a single
body. The services rendered to the public by the Royal
Academy were such, he was prepared to admit, as entitled
them to the utmost consideration, but nothing could in his
opinion tend more strongly to defeat the objects of the ne-
gotiations which were now in progress than thatthey should
endeavour to place themselves beyond the scope of Parlia-
mentary examination and inquiry.
Earl STANHOPE said there seemed to be some misap-
prehension with regard to the Society of Antiquaries. That
society had held apartments at Somerset-house, but a short
time ago a new arrangement had been made with the Go-
vernment, which was perfectly satisfactory to the council,
and they had no intention to make tmy claim upon the
ground at Burlington-house.
SUBMARINE TELEGRAPHS.

Lord WODEHOUSE said he had lately seen a state.
ment in the newspapers that a company which had extended
its telegraphic communications as far as Sicily were dis-
posed to carry it to Malta, but that the authorities would
not permit them to land the cable upon that island. Now,
he knew nothing of the merits of the company which had
made this proposal, and possibly there were good reasons
for refusing it ; but at first sight it certainly appeared as
if some monopoly were set up in favour of the existing
line, that line being connected with the Submarine Com-
pany, which at present enjoyed a monopoly of the commu-
nication with France, whereas the rival line was that of
the International and Electric Telegraph Company. The
question was one of some importance as a matter of prin-
ciple, because it involved the mode in which the Govern-
ment were to deal with the whole telegraphic system in the
Mediterranean. He thought we should have done well

to have made Malta the centre of our telegraphic commu-
nications there, and obvious reasons existed in favour of
such a course. In all probability we should then have had
four lines touching at this island—one from Cagliari to
Malta, another from Ragusa to Malta, a third by Naples
and Sicily, and eventually a fourth, which would be of still
greater importance—namely, a direct line from England,
passing by Gibraltar—(hear, hear)—and in this case we
should have held the key, as it were, of all the telegraphs
in the Mediterranean. He feared, however, that the oppor-
tunity for making such an arrangement had been lost. In
a very able Treasury minute, dated February 22 of last
year, reasons were given for the decision which had been
arrived at in favour of the Austrian line by way of Ragusa
and Candia to Alexandria ; but still he thought it of impor-
tance that no principle should be laid down which would
prevent future independent communications from being
made. He wished now to call their attention to the ques-
tion of subsidies and guarantees. The telegraphic system,
and especially that of submarine lines, was in its infancy.
Although, owing to the failure of the Atlantic cable, such
plans were now somewhat out of favour, and although it
might at present be impossible to lay down cables of such
length with safety and at a moderate expense, yet, looking
to the progress of science, it was not to be doubted that
means would be found for overcoming all difficulties. If
this were the case, of what importance did it become that
the Government should not give premature guarantees, and
should not, for want of properly considering the lines laid
down, prevent the future advantageous development of
telegraphic communication. (Hear.) If the Government
had no distinct plan upon which they proceeded they might
find that they had not patronised the best lines, and what
was still worse, that they had prevented more advantage-
ous lines from being formed. We had already give a gua-
rantee! to the Mediterranean Extension Company, which
had laid down a telegraphic cable from Cagliari to Malta,
and from Malta to Corfu. Then, since last session, a gua-
rantee had been given to another and more important un-
dertaking, the Red Sea line. Here he might remind the
noble earl (of Donoughmore) that the answer given by him
upon this subject at the close of last session was not
altogether accurate. The noble earl stated that the Govern-
ment had under their consideration the competing lines, and
although no decision had been come to, it was possible they
might choose that by the Persian Gu It; whereas it so hap-
pened that the very next morning the newspapers stated,
and quite accurately, that the Government had decided in
favour of the Red Sea line. He (Lord Wodehouse) did not
complain of that decision, which was probably the Lest
which could be arrived at under the circumstances; and,
looking to the difficulty of getting any company to under-
take the work, and to the state of the money-market at
that time, the Government were probably justified in the
guarantee they had given. It was said that the Turkish
Government would proceed with their line, and it would
then, no doubt; become a question whether some assistance
should not be given to connect it with Kurrachee. Again,
negotiations were in a forward state with a view to a gua-
rantee to the Ragusa, Corfu, and Candia line • and another
guarantee had been given to the Atlantic Telegraph Com-
pany. He did not know precisely what was the agreement
at present existing between this company and the Govern-
ment. The original subsidy was £14,000 from the English
and one of a similar amount from the American Govern-

merit ; but he understood that the company had applied ror
a considerable increase, and:he should be glad to hear what
conditions had been agreed upon with regard to it. What-
ever might be the result, their lordships would observe that
these guarantees were already of considerable magnitude,
and ho did think that if we were to increase them some de-

finite s3rstem should be adopted on the subject. It might
be doubted how far it was politic to give any guarantees at
all. (Hear.) In certain exceptional cases they might be
necessary, but upon the whole he believed the Government
would act wisely if they declined to involve themselves in
any such engagements. (Hear.) He would now conclude
by asking the question of which ho had given notice—whe-
ther it was true that the proposal of a company to lay a
submarine telegraph from Naples to Malta had been refused
by her Majesty's Government ; and if so, upon what
grounds. Also, whether it was the intention of her Ma-

jesty's Government to grant assistance, either by way of
guarantee or subsidy, to other companies beyond those
which had already received such assistance ?
The Earl of DERBY—I think I shall be able to give a
very short and conclusive answer to the question of the
noble lord. Three applications have been made to her Ma-

jesty's Government by different parties for establishing sub-
marine telegraphic communication with Malta. Two of these
applications were made to, and were refused by her Majesty's
late Government. They have been repeated to her Ma-

jesty's present Goverment, and are now under considera-
tion. The third application has been made by what is called
the Mediterranean Company, who propose to carry out a
small line from Malta to Cape Passaro, a distance of about
70 miles, and her Majesty's Government have stated that
if that company can make an arrangement with foreign
Governments they will not offer any opposition to their

establishing telegraphic lines, but that, on the other hand,
they aro not prepared to afford any aid or assistance to the
company. I think the noble lord seemed to labour under
some misapprehension in speaking of what would Intro
been the case if Malta had been made the great centre
of telegraphic communication in the Mediterranean, and
in expressing his belief that the accomplishment of
that object had been prevented partly by the refusal
of her Majesty's Government to sanction a line of
telegraph between Naples and Malta, and partly by
the establishment by the Austrian Government of the com-
munication by way of Trieste. So far as Malta is concerned
I donot hesitate to say that I think it ought to be, and that
it is, the central point of communication for the various
submarine telegraphic lines of the Mediterranean ; but I
do not think, therefore, that we should avoid availing our-
selves of other means of communication which may be
established. We are, consequently in a forward state of
negotiation with the Austrian Government, with the object
of establishing a telegraphic communication by way of
Ragusa. With regard to the noble lord's question as to
the Atlantic Telegraph Company, I shall be glad to have
an opportunity of stating generally the principles by which
her Majesty's Government think they ought to be guided
in dealing with these various telegraphic companies which
are rising in every direction. The noble lord stated that,
under a former arrangement, her Majesty's Government had
agreed tc give the Atlantic Telegraph Company a subsidy
of £14,000 a year, and that the Government of the United
States were prepared, under certain conditions, to contri-
bute the same amount ; and he stated that he understood
that negotiations were at present in progress between the
Atlantic Telegraph Company. and her Majesty's Govern •
ment with the view of arranging that a much [larger sub-
sidy shall be given to the company. Now, in making that
statement, the noble lord has confounded two things which
are entirely and absolutely different—namely, a subsidy
and a guarantee. The Atlantic Telegraph Company, after
very praiseworthy efforts to establish telegraphic communi-
cation with America, most unfortunately sunk the whole of
their subscribed capital, and were consequently unable to
prosecute the undertaking, and it became necessary for
them, if they wished
to continue their atbetemingpt,thtoe ecnasteer
.
into an entirely new arrangement. This
the agreement entered into with regard to a subsidy of
£14,000 a year on the part of her Majesty's Government
and of the United States, to be continued so long only as
the company was in process of working, naturally and en-
tirely fell to the ground. The company then requested
that her Majesty's Government would either grant them
an additional subsidy for the purpose of raising new capital
or give a guarantee upon such capital as should be raised.
Now there are two kinds of guarantees, and there is also
the system of subsidies, and these three modes of assisting
telegraph companies are entirely and absolutely distinct.
Propositions have been made at various times, and by various
companies, and among others by the Atlantic Telegraph
Company, for what I will call unconditional guarantees ;
that is, supposing a company undertook to expend a cer-
tain sum in the prosecution of particular works, it was sug-
gested that her Majesty's Government should guarantee
them the receipt of a certain amount of interest upon the
amount so expended. Now, although in one case such a
proposal was agreed to, I hold it to be in principle an inde-
fensible arrangement—(hear)—because it is quite clear that
if You guarantee a company 41 per cent. for '25 or 50 years
you have no security, or next to none, that the work
will be properly carried on, and you run considerable
risk of being compelled to pay for a long period a large sum
of money for a service which, after all, is not completed. If
the money be expended, and the expenditure prove a loss, it
matters not to the company, so long as for 50 years they are
to receive their 41 per cent.—(hear, hear)—while in the
event of failure the Government have all the loss, and in
the event of success they gain no portion of the profit or
advantage. I think it would be much better—though I
don't mean to say it is a plan I recommend—that the Go-
vernment should take the construction of works into their
own hands—(hear, hear)—because in that case, instead of
paying 41 per cent. upon capital, they would probably get
the requisite capital at 3 or 3/ per cent., and if the scheme
were unsuccessful they would not lose more than they
would do under an absolute guarantee, while, if OUCCOBE-

ful, they would derive all the advantage. In the case of
an unconditional- guarantee, however, the Government
run all the risk, and suffer the loss if the scheme fail,
while, if it should prove successful, the company, who have
been protected against risk, derive all the profit. (Hear.)
But a conditional guarantee is a very different thing, and I
take it to be perfectly legitimate in cases where there is a
great proposal of success. but at the same time considerable
risk of failure. It is, I think, in such cases, perfectly legi-
timate to guarantee a high rate of profit upon the outlay in
the event of success, in consideration of the great amount
of risk originally ran by the company. In such a case,
therefore, I do not think it at all beyond the provision of
the Government to give a guarantee if there is a great un-
dertaking for which, in the event of failure, the Govern-
ment are not in any way responsible, but which, if it suc-
ceeds, is likely to produce advantages to the public and
great pecuniary results to the company. We are at this
lime in negotiation with that company, who have asked
that a limited sum of money may be expended under the
supervision 'of the Government, and that they may have
the Government guarantee of 8 per cent. upon
the outlay for a certain number of ' years so long
as the telegraph shall be in working order and
capable of
.performin2.; its duties. Now, I think,
if telegraphic communication is established by a sub-
marine cable between this country and America, it is a very
reasonable calculation that the profit may be expected to
amount to 8 or 10 per cent., if not more. Supposing, there-
fore, that the terms to which I have referred were acceded
to by the Government, which is not the case at this mo-
ment, if the profits reached 8 per cent. the Government
would not be liable to any payment. If the profits reached
6 per cent. the Government would then, for the attainment
of every important national object, pay 2 per cent., and no
more. upon the outlay of capital. I think, therelbre, that
in cases in which the risk of failure is very considerable,
but when the prospect of pecuniary advantage in case of
success is very great, the Government exercises a wise and
judicious course in guaranteeing a certain amount of inte-
rest in the event of success, but in that event only. There
is a third class of cases, which includes not only submarine
telegraphs, but post-office and packet communication, in
which subsidies are asked for. I think no subsidy ought to
be given except in cases where an object of great political or
commercial importance is to be secured, and where it is clear
that, as a mercantile speculatiom, unaccompanied by some
subsidy the project must inevitably fail of success. In such
a case I think it is perfectly legitimate on the past of the Go-
vernment, for great politica and commercial objects, to
grant a payment or subsidy, wholly irrespective of the profit
or loss which might otherwise be experienced. It seems to
me, then, that whether with regard to electric telegraphs
submarine cable, or the post-oflice packet communication,
absolute and unconditional guarantees should hardly in any
case be consented to by the Government ; that conditional
guarantees are legitimate when the risk of failure is very
great, and when the prospects of profit in ease of success
are very considerable; but that subsidies ought only to be
granted in cases when the prospects of remuneration would
rot induce persons to undertake the work as a mercantile
speculation, and when the attainment of important political
or commercial objects justified the payment of such sub-
sidies from the public funds. In every proposition that may
be submitted to the Government, I think when projects are
in other respects equal the Government ought to give a pre-
ference to those schemes which provide that the whole line
of telegraphic communication shall be, if not upon British
territory, at least exclusively and absolutely under British
control. (Cheers.) Having stated the rules upon which these
propositions ought to be considered, viz., the solvency of the
company, the magnitude of the abject to be attained, the pro-
spect of better offers, the risk to be run, and the interests to be
served—the terms must always be a matter of calculation in
each separate case. (Hear, hear.) It is impossible to lay
down any rule as to the proportionate assistance which her
Majesty's Government ought to give, but I hope I have stated
distinctly the principles by which, in dealing with the sub-
ject, I think her Majesty's Government ought to be guided.
(Hear, hear.)
__

, ,
Earl GREY said he had heard with great satisfaction
the statement of the noble earl. He thought the principle
adopted were both sound and right, and above all the prin-
ciple of giving a preference to those lines which would be
entirely under British control. (Hear, hear.) It appeared
to him that it was the greatest possible mistake to allow the
American Government to be connected with a line of tele-
graph from one part of the British dominions to another,
and he was glad to infer from what tho noble earl had
stated that it was an error which was not likely to be re-
peated. (Hear, hear.) He concurred in what the noble earl
had said as to conditional guarantees, but he thought that
if the Government secured to a company a certain profit on
their capital, it was absolutely necessary that the Government
should have control over their working expenses, to pre-
vent jobbery and extravagance. (Hear, hear.) He also
concurred with his noble friend who had commenced the
conversation, that it was of very great importance thero
should be, as soon as possible, an independent sea line from
the Land's End to Gibraltar and from Gibraltar to Malta.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY approved the state-
ment of the noble earl, and asked whether her Majesty's
Government intended to make it a condition with the At-
lantic Telegraph Company that they should abandon their
exclusive privilege, and whether the guarantee to the Red
Sea and India Telegraph Company was absolute or condi-
tional. The noble lord added that he much regretted that
the whole system of electric telegraph communication of
this country had not been made part of the postal arrange-
ments, under the direction of a branch of the Executive.
The Earl of DERBY was quite ready to admit that the
terms obtained by the Red Sea Company were of a very
favourable character. In one sense the guarantee might be
considered absolute on a certain amount, but, on the other
hand, the company contracted to the Government to have
the line laid and placed in working order, so that it was not
until the line was in that state that the guarantee of the
Government arose. As to the Atlantic Telegraph Company,
he was glad to say tho Government had insisted as a first
condition in the negotiations now pending, that the mono-
poly of the company should bo abolished, and that the Go-
vernment should be at liberty to sanction and assist any
company which might be disposed to undertake to lay down
other lines. If the Government guaranteed a particular
company, it was not the interest of the Government to
diminish the profits of that company by encouraging a
number of competing lines. But the principle adopted was
to repudiate any monopoly, and to hold the Government
free to agree with any other company they should think it
desirable to do so. (Hear, hear.)
Tbe conversation then terminated.
DEBTOR AND CREDITOR BILL.
_ _

Their lordships then went into committee o;this bill.
On clause 1,
Lord WENSLEYDALE objected to the abolition of ar-
rest in execution, as being against the reports of all the
committees and commissions since 1832, but after a short
conversation withdrew his objection, and the clause was
agreed to.

-Clause 2.
Lord WYNFORD protested against the power of arrest
given to creditors without the intervention of the court.
The LORD CHANCELLOR did not think that the noble
lord completely understood the clause. By it arrest in ex-
ecution was abolished, except on a judgment obtained in an
action of tort, where the debt had been incurred under false
pretences, or in case of an absconding creditor.
The clause and clause 3 were then agreed to.
Clauses 4 to 92, with some verbal alterations, were agreed
to.
On clause 93,

Lord CRANWORTH said that this clause introduced 211
important alteration in the law, for it trenched upon the
official control over the estates of insolvents. Under the old
law before 1831 there was no official assignee, and it was
found that more than £2,000,000 money was standing in
the names of neglectful assignees. In the face of that ex-
perience the clause enabled creditors to dispense with the
official assignee. And it was the majority in value who
were enabled to dispense with that officer ; thus the smaller
creditors would be easily swamped. He quite admitted that
in many cases creditors would readily dispense with official
assignees. That was because they could easily appreciate
the expense of the official assignee, while they could not ap-
preciate the expense of reckless and careless management.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the great difficulty
which the Government had had to determine was to fix on

the course which, under many conflicting representations,
they should follow. Petitions had been presented to their
lordships' house, asking urgently, that to creditors alone
should the right' of administering the bankrupt's affairs be
given. The Government considered that,.under the conflict-
ing circumstance of the case, the best course to be taken was
to give the creditors the power, if they chose, of dispensing
with the assignee. A noble lord in the other house had
produced a bankruptcy bill, and that noble lord, who was
supposed to represent particularly the commercial classes,
bad introduced in his bill a clause going very much further
than the present. With reference to the statement of Lord
Cranworth that smaller creditors would be overborne, he
(the Lord Chancellor) must say, from his experience, that
the commercial community was not slow in looking after

their own affairs.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 94 to 110 were agreed to.
On clause 111,
Lord ORAN WORTH said this clause appeared to him
monstrously unjust. Under the present law an insolvent
could not get protection without giving up all his property;
but under this clause it was provided that if an insolvent
had a reversion in real property the creditor should not have
power to sell till the reversioner had come into possession.
His noble and learned friend said his object was to protect
the insolvent against a vindictive creditor, who might wish
to sell when the property would realise comparatively little.
Why, delay might be the creditor's ruin, and in that case
it would be no consolation to tell him that more would be
obtained when the debtor's father was dead. Here was a
new law for the protection of non-traders who were interested
in real property, and the public would conclude that the
object was to favour the landed aristocracy.
Lord WENSLEYDALE concurred in the objection.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said his noble and learned
friends ought to bear in mind that this was the first time it
had been enacted that a person interested in real property
should be compelled to part with his property for the benefit.ne
of his creditors, and he thought it was only right thatt:9
such persons became insolvent they should be prot
they were by this clause. Moreover, as his noble and
times
nd learned
friends were well aware, it was not once in ath u
that a trader was a tenant in tail in remainder
ci, 1
of a settled 50.

estate. (Hear, hear.)
Lord CRANWORTH—He may be.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said they were not to pro-
vide against possibilities, but against cases of common oc-
currence. He had not the slightest hesitation in saying
that his object was to protect the insolvent debtor against a
sale of his interest at a time when its value would bo very

small.
Lord CRANWORTH said he entirely approved of the
proposal substantially to do away with imprisonment for
debt, because putting the body of a debtor in prison was a
relic of barbarism ; but his noble and learned friend should
remember that the event which he contemplated, namely,
the insolvent's coming into possession of the estate, might
not happen for fifty years. He looked upon this clause with
deep regret, and repeated that it would be regarded by the
country as a clause passed to protect the sons of the aris-
tocracy and the landed gentry against their creditors.
The Earl of DERBY said that compelling men to sell
reversions was, in fact, compelling them to raise money
post-obits—a practice which had always been eansideroa
highly objectionable. (Hear, hear.)he bill with some verbal
:fl'hhee crelamusaeinwinags theelnanaegeereeedf tot.
amendments, were then agreed to, and the house resumed.
EATON
EXCHANGE BILL.
This bill passed throughT:cLoistAmciste AND
BURIAL
ij tIIVAALL
BILL. •
This bill was read a second time.
MARRIAGE
reading
gouenf ttitUbNiuGhAeliwNeuldli
LAW AMENDMENT DMENT BILL.
time that day six months.
Their lordships then (Hmgeaoarvvee.)nthotaitwitthbaetreldthae second
eecond
adjourned at a quarter-past nine.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.

NEW MEMBER.
Mr. HARDY took the oaths and his seat for Midhurst.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Mr. FORSTER moved that the order, that the Man-

PUBLIC OFFICES.
Lord J. MANNERS obtaine4 leave to bring in a bill to
make further provision for enabling the Commissioners of
her Majesty's Works to acquire a site for additional offices
for the public service, near Whitehall and her Majesty's
Palace of Westminster.

COURT OF PROBATE,

Lord J. MANNERS moved for leave to bring in a bill to
enable the Commissioners of her Majesty's Works to ac-
quire a site for the purposes of her Majesty's Court of Pro-
bate and other courts and offices.—Agreed to.
ASSISTANT-SURGEONS IN THE EAST INDIA

COMPANY.
Mr. RIDLEY asked the Secretary of State for India,
whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government
now to confer any mark of distinction upon those Assist,-
Surgeons, late in the service of the East India Company,
who formed part of the garrison during the whole of the
siege of Lucknow, and who were recommended in the
despatch of General Inglis, of the 26th September, 1857,
to the particular attention of the Government of India ' • or,
if the rank of assistant-surgeon did not allow of such dis-
tinction being conferred at the present time, whether he would
cause that recommendation to be noted in the books, so
that on their obtaining the rank of full surgeon they may
receive a corresponding distinction to that already con-
ferred on the four surgeons named in the above cited
despatch ?
Lord STANLEY said that the assistant-surgeons were
only regarded in the light of other subalterns, and there-
fore were not eligible for any such distinction as that al-
luded to ; but, on the part of the Government of India, he
could assure the hon. member that they were very desirous
of recognising the claims of those who were entitled to such
recognition.
COURT OF BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY
APPOINTMENTS (IRELAND).
Mr. BEAMISH asked the Attorney-General for Ireland,
whether it was the fact that the. Lord Chancellor of Ireland
had recently appointed Mr. Charles Henry James, an officer
in the Ayrshire Rifles, one of the two official assignees of
the Court of Bankruptcy and Insolvency in Ireland ; and,
if so, whether the Attorney-General could inform the house
what were the qualifications of Mr. James for the office, and
what was the amount of the salary or emoluments ?
Mr. WHITESIDE said the gentleman in question was
appointed because he was the fittest man. (Laughter.)
The hon. and learned member read a letter from the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland, stating that Mr. James was recom-
mended to him by some of the principal merchants of
Dublin, and that he believed the salary was about £6OO
a-year.
THE NEW REFORM BILL FOR SCOTLAND

AN,D IRELAND.
Mr. E. ELLICE asked the Lord Advocate whether, by
the new Reform Bill for Scotland, it was intended to confer
on burghs and counties a similar franchise to that provided
for in the second, third, and fourth sections of the first
clauses of the English Reform Bill now before the house.
In the first clause, relative to the franchise, in the bill in-
troduced by the Government, an alteration was proposed
which, though not affecting England to any great
extent, would very seriously affect Scotland. He alluded to
the lowering of the franchise from £lO to £5, and in dealing
with Scotland, it should be remembered that the former was
the ordinary amount of long tenure in that country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he proposed to bring forward the Scotch bill as soon after
the English Reform Bill as the pressure of business would
permit—he expected before Easter. He thought it would be
inconvenient to make any statement at present. He took
that opportunity of informing the house that he would take
an early opportunity of making a statement with reference
to the Reform Bill for Ireland.
In reply to Mr. PALK,
Mr. BRIGHT said, with regard to his measure, he
thought it would be better for the house to attend to one at
a time.
(Laughter.) He would give full notice before in-
troducing his bill.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE considered that some intimation
of the intention of the Government with reference to the
nature of the bill to be introduced to amend the representa-
tion of the people of Ireland, should have Wen made before
the present time.
After some sandobservationmLlolrldr.
.I..ritanucsesealln,d Mr. J. D.
Fitzgerald, Mr. Bowyer,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERw
wished the house to understand that it des sairablied hthaet
the principle of the bill which had been introduced"shothualdt
be affirmed before any statement was made such
alluded to, as the principle did not apply solelytoE ngluanntdil.
He would, therefore, defer making any statement,
subsequent to the second reading of the bill.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that there was an item in
the army estimates of £1,050,000 for a debt incurred in
1857, relative to which no information was given in the
estimates. He hoped, therefore, that the gallant Secretary
of War would give an explanation in reference to so
large an item.
General PEEL said he would make such explanation as
was required.
DANUBIAN PRINCIPALITIES.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply on
the Array Estimates,
Mr. STAPLETON called the attention of the house to
the double election in the Danubian Provinces. A question
arose at the conference which preceded the Treaty of Paris
as to whether those provinces should continue separate or
be united into one homogeneous State. The French Envoy
proposed the union, and was supported in that opinion by
Lord Clarendon. On the other hand, the Turkish Envoy,
supported by the Austrian; opposed the union. The Divans
which had been summoned in the Principalities declared in
favour of union, and it was supposed by the people that
their wishes would be gratified by the Powers who had
taken them under their protection. But all at once a change
came over the policy of the English Government and the
line of conduct which had been followed by Lord Clarendon
at Paris bad been departed from. A motion was made in
the House of Commons on the subject by the right hon.
member for Oxford University, which was resisted by the
Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, on the ground
that the people of the Principalities did not wish for union,
except under the headship of a foreign Prince. The noble
lord the member for Tiverton took the same view, but sub-
sequent events proved that they were in the wrong. The
conferencas at
pans were soon afterwards reopened,
and articles were agreed to for
.the future regulation of
the government of the P rincipalities. The on. gen-
tleui an, after referring in detail to tho articles of

...
Mr. ROEBUCK said the inhabitants of the Principal
ties were endeavouring to become a people, and it would be
no indiscretion on the part of the House of Commons to
say they hoped the efforts of the Moldavians and Walla-
chians to become a nation, and to gain their independence,
would be successful. For his own part, he participated
very much in their wishes, and hoped that, far from being
the /slaves of the diplomacy of Europe, they would retain
their own dignity and work out unaided their own inde-
pendence.
NAVAL FORCE ON THE AUSTRALIAN COAST.
Lord A. CHURCHILL then rose to call the attention of
the Government to the inadequate protection at present
afforded to the Australian and New Zealand colonies through
the smallness of the naval force stationed there. He said
that many gentlemen connected with the Australian colo-
nies had been disappointed by the omission of the First
Lord of the Admiralty, in his speech on the navy estimates,
to promise that the naval force in Australia should be in-
creased. The present force consisted of three or four small
vessels, which were a detachment from the forces at the
Indian and Chinese stations. The greatest difficulty was
therefore experienced in communicating with the admiral.
During the late war the senior officer at the Australian
station expressed his surprise in the strongest possible
terms that colonies so important as the Australian should
be protected by so miserable a force. The French had
established a naval station in New Caledonia, and
were endeavouring in every way to increase their in-
fluence in the Pacific Ocean. They had now three islands
there, one of which—viz., New, Caledonia.—was only 900
miles from Sydney. It was a beautiful island, surrounded
by coral reefs, and had an excellent harbour. It was 400
miles in extent, and was protected by five French vessels of
war ; but its trade by no means required so-large a force.
For what object, then, were those vessels stationed there?
The inhabitants were very savage, and the nominal reason
why the French vessels were maintained was to keep the
savages in subjection. But that was not the real reason.
The real object was that, in case of any hostilities with
France New Caledonia might bo made the point from which
the Australian colonies could be assailed -, this could be
done with the greatest possible facility. Only a few years
ago an American frigate worked her way in the night up
the bay to the city of Sydney, and when the people woke in
the morning they found themselves under her guns, with
nothing to prevent her from laying the city in ashes, or
putting it under contribution. The question arose how far
it was the duty of the mother country to protect the coun-
try by a naval force, and how far the colonies ought to pro-
tect themselves. He thought the mother country ought to
afford facilities to the colonies to form a separate naval force
if they chose, and to give them sufficient protection till they
had done so. He believed the Australian colonies were
ready to form a naval militia for their own defence. One
proposition made to the Home Government was that it
should send them some of the old ships the First Lord of
the Admiralty stated were not fit to be converted into
screw steamers. They might go out jury-rigged, carrying
emigrants to defray the expense. They could take out
heavy ordnance in their holds. When they arrived one
might be stationed at Sydney, one at Melbourne, one at
Adelaide, and one at Hobart Town. They would form a
naval militia. In the event of any hostilities they might be
i towed out by a colonial steamer and placed broadside on to
the enemy. Such a naval force would give confidence to.the
colonies ; and the fact of their being there might prevent
any attack. The colonies felt also that they were in a posi-
tion to demand a separate naval station; this was recom-
mended by Lord Auckland, but never carried out. He could
not see why the Admiral in command on the west coast of
South America should not have his station extended to
Australia ; it already extended to within a few hundred
miles of New Zealand. These questions excited great in-
terest in the Australian colonies • and he would ask the
right hon. baronet whether the dovernment contemplated
forming a separate naval establishment for the better de-
fence of their Australian possessions.
Sir C. NAPIER, according to notice, moved that, as the
First Lord of the Admiralty had stated that the coastguard
ships are comparatively useless, the time had arrived when
they ought to be replaced by efficient ships ; and, also, in-
quired when it was the intention of the Government to put
in force the recommendations of the commission for manning
the navy. He said the nine blockships, described by the
right hon. baronet as comparatively useless, and now sta-
tioned at different ports on the coastguard service, were
considered by merchant seamen as a disgrace to the coun-
try ; they ought to be removed and their places supplied by
efficient ships ; this could be done with great ease, and why
it was not done was very extraordinary. It was to be hoped
that the First Lord of the Admiralty would explain to the
house why he persisted in employing the blockships when
he had himself declared them to be comparatively useless.
All Europe was armed as if it were on the brink of a great
war ; and how, therefore, a rich country like this should be
left in so imperfect a state of defence he could not, for the
life of him, understand. The first reserve ought to be im-
mediately commissioned and manned. The commissioners
on the manning of the navy had been appointed eight or
nine months ago, and their recommendations ought to be
carried into immediate execution. The Admiralty them-
selves might long ago have carried out most of those recom-
mendations. The First Lord was the Minister responsible
for the proper defence of the country, and his complaint
against him was that he did not go fast enough to meet the
exigencies of the crisis. The hon. and gallant admiral
pointed out the mode in which he thought the useless coast-
guard ships might easily be replaced by efficient vessels,
and concluded by making his motion in the terms above
stated.
Mr. YOUNG could confirm the statements made by the
noble lord who had called attention to the defenceless state
of the Australian coasts. The Australian colonies were as
loyal and contented as any part of the British empire, their
only grievance being the want of naval protection for their
extensive seaboard. When rumours of hostilities were rife
the colonists were naturally anxious about their safety ; and
at the commencement of the Russian war great consterna-
tion was felt on the same score. The town of Sydney was
very exposed to attack ; and any French or American sailor
who had once been, to Sydney harbour could easily take a
ship.up there during the nights
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I hope my noble friend will not
think that I was guilty of any discourtesy in not at once re-
plying to his remarks ; because the gallant admiral had
given notice of a motion with reference to the blockships,
and if I had not waited for his statement, the forms of the
house would have prevented my replying to him. I entirely
agree with my noble friend, that whether it be with respect
to naval force or any other matter, the Australian colonies
have the fullest right to every friendly consideration at the
hands of the Government ; but I am not equally disposed to
admit the truth of the words used by him in his notice as to
the " entirely inadequate naval protection" of those colonies.
At all events, I am in a position to say that, be their de-
fence adequate or inadequate, it is much more effective than
it was when I succeeded to the Admiralty. At that time
the Australian colonies were defended by one vessel, and I
believe by one vessel only— I am sure by not more than two.
The Sappho brig was under orders to proceed from the Cape
of Good Hope to streng,then that squadron, but unhappily she
was lost, and I am afraid that all hands perished with her.
Since that time the Aurelia sloop of war has gone to Austra-
lia from the Kooria Mooria Islands ; and in the course of the
the summer I ordered two other sloops of war to proceed from
China station to strengthen the Australian squadron.
The result is that at this time that squadron consists of four
men-of-war, two
officer o'
letter which I received 1,
the commanding
in his opinion that squadron
necessity which could arise
of which are screw steamers; and in a
etrytharetcsetnattliyon7frolmwCasapastasi au
urn
eLdthriaet,
within was amply sufficient for any
the colonies. I hope
that so far my statement will be satisfactory to my noble
friend. This question touches another matter—viz.,
we are prepared to erect a naval station in the Austra-
lian colonies. Since I have been at the Admiralty I have
been in communication with the Government of Sydney
with a view to obtaining possession of an island in that
harbour called "Garden Island," and we propose to ap-
propriate that island, at least, .to the reception of stores for
the benefit and assistance of her Majesty's vessels in those
seas. That arrangement is at present in its infancy. I men-
tion it to show my noble friend that we are not unmindful
of the necessity of having some naval establishment in
those seas, and I hope that it will soon be so far matured
as to meet all the requirements of our fleet. My noble friend
mentioned a fact of which I was not aware—that it was the
intention .if Lord Auckland to make the Australian station
a separate command. It is my intention to carry
out a
*similar arrangement. The Board of Admiralty have come
to the determination that the Australian colonies ought not
to be nominally attached to the India and China station,
and we therefore propose to make it an independent com-
mand. (Hear, hear.) I will now turn to what fell from the
gallant admiral opposite with respect to the blockships.
He complained that I, having stated that these are Very
useless vessels, still keep them round the coast as coast-
guard ships, I think the gallant admiral rather overstates
what fell from me with regard to the comparative inutility
of these blockships. What I stated was, that as line-of-

so. •
Lord PALMERSTON—I am glad to find that the
right hon. baronet and my hon. and gallant friend are
perfectly agreed as to the expediency of replacing the
floating batteries which are stationed at our different
ports by effective ships, and that the only material differ-
ence which exists between them relates to the question of
time. I think the right hon. baronet has overstated the dif-
ficulty of exchanging the one class of ships for the other,
because he admitted what was stated by my hon. and gal-
lant friend, that the effective ships which are proposed to
be sent to our ports in lieu of the floating batteries are now
ready for sea.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The noble lord is mistaken ;
they are not ready for sea.
Sir C. NAPIER—Some of them are. (A laugh )
Lord PALMERSTON—I presume they are nearly so;
at all events, as appeared from the statement of the right
hon. baronet the other night, there is nothing which the
Government desires so much as to be able at short notice to
send to sea an efficient Channel squadron. Now, though it
may be true that the block ships would be effective as
floating batteries for the defence of our ports, they are evi-
dently not fit to take their posts in a line of battle. I hope
we are not anticipating at an early period the necessity of
defending our ports by block ships against the attack of an
enemy ; the only thing likely to happen is that a superior
squadron should appear in the Channel, and that we should
not have a fleet of equal force capable of taking the sea im-
mediately and acting its part in the usual manner of naval
engagements. For such a purpose the block ships are use-
less, and therefore I would impress upon the right hon.
baronet the expediency of accelerating the substitution of
the one class of ships for the other. Ido not know whether
an additional number of workmen might be obtained for our
dockyards, but, as the right hon. baronet has admitted in
principle that which my hon. and gallant friend has re-
commended, I hope that as little time as possible will be
!allowed to elapse before the floating batteries are replaced
by ships fit for sea, so that, if occasion should arise, we may
have a fleet in the Channel adequate to the national defence.
Mr. CORRY remarked that the only ships which could
be substituted for the steam guard-ships were the 80-gun
ships, for nobody would think of putting our three-deckers
to do outpost duty along the coast. Now, the 80-gun ships
were all, with one exception, in the second-class steam re-
serve, and it would be necesssary to mast and rig them be-
fore sending them to sea. The expense of fitting them out
would amount to £144,000.
Sir C. NAPIER—Why, all the stores are already in the
dockyards.
Mr. CORRY said it was true that the stores were in the
dockyards, but they were not on board ship; and he could
assure the hon. and gallant admiral that the 80-gun ships
could not be equipped without great labour and expense.
Mr. BRIGHT—The First Lord of the Admiralty has
not answered the question of the noble lord the member for
Woodstock, with respect to the expense of the squadron
which it is proposed to station in the neighbourhood of the
Australian colonies. The hon. member for Yarmouth, who
spent several years in those colonies, has given us a pleas-
ing picture of their condition. He says they have every-
thing they want, with a single exception, that with which
it is now proposed to furnish them. (A laugh.) We
know that they have all the land of Australia, and a
constitution so free that the people of England are
not permitted to hope for anything like it. We also
know they have an increasing trade, and enjoy a pros-
perity such as is not equalled in this country. The rate of
wages—everything in those colonies—forces us to the con-
clusion that the great body of the people there, those whom
we should call the working and industrious classes, are in a
condition of comfort equal to that of the middle ranks of
society in this kingdom. Being so happy and prosperous,
if there be one thing more wanted, and it consists of ships
of war to defend their coast's and harbours, I think it is but
fair they should pay the expenses. (Hear, hear.) It is one of
the most monstrous things ever heard of, and probably has
never been dreamt of in any c,ountrybut this, that we should
have an extended empire, abounding in colonies, such as
Canada and Australia, where the people are infinitely better
off than we are, and yet should contribute not a single far-
thing in any shape either to the sums necessary for paying
the interest of the national debt incurred in past wars, or for
the naval and military service of the home country. If they
are to be parts of the empire, and allowed to demand mili-
tary succour, I do not say oven in time of war, but in time
of peace—regiments upon their shores and fleets upon their
waters—l say every farthing of the cost they ought to defray
themselves. (Hear, hear.) I protest against this constant
loading of the industry of the people of England for the
purpose, whether of protecting our rich and prosperous
colonies, or of merely gratifying the taste and sentiment of
persons living at the other side of the world. If we persist
m the course which we have been pursuing for the last few
years, and if the expense of our naval and military estab-
lishments is to increase as it has done during the last 20
years, by a sum equal to £10,000,000 or £12,000,000 per
annum, notwithstanding the tranquillity which now exists,
the lime will come when somebody will see that " ugly rush"
to which the right hon. member for Oxfordshire referred
the other night, and when there will be a ferment among
the millions of our people which all the excited and exag-
gerated fears of the hon. and gallant member for South-
wark will be little able to compose. (Hear.) You have
been telling the house for years past that the only
Power in the world which has a fleet of any pretensions
whatever is your cordial ally. You have flattered him,
you have fawned upon him, you have expressed your
faith in him in every form of words of which the English
lauguage is capable ; but at the same time you are con-
stantly increasing your military and naval expenses, for
which there would be no sort of pretence whatever if a
andre p
thelplaying
ytiiniL
aown statements. I say yur our conduct is monstrous.
L single sentence of what you say were true, or if you believed
) auur
falseNvill bcoomthetowhyeonGaallsyernanmde ncoun-
try,t ando
Parlia-
ment your
will regret not having kept down with a strop.g hand
a species of expense which in every age of the world has
brought disaster upon thrones and hear.)
Sir E. B. LYTTON—Thee'
States. (Hear,
member for Birmingham
has not perfectly comprehendedilthe overt made to the
colonies with respeit to the expense of their naval and mili-
tary defence. In 1856 Sir Wm. Denison proposedplan
for the naval and military defenco propo..e
of Australia. According
to that plan ho proposed that the colony should be at all
the expense of the naval and military force required for
purely colonial defence, and that the Imperial Government
should pay the cost of what was necessary for imperial pur-