The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-23 00:00:00

discussion. He had perhaps vs ed the phrase that they
would be found sailing in the saw am boat, the translation of
which was, that upon a divisMa they would be found in
the same lobby. He had also stated, entirely on his own
responsibility, that he believe ti ‘. the hon. member for Bir-
mingham participated in those f belings of confidence which
at the present moment advance( I Liberals were disposed to
extend to the noble lord the men iber for the City of London.
(Cheers and laughter.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERA .L continued—l am obliged
to the hon. gentleman for the exp lanation which he has Just
given us, because I could hardly - believe that the report of
his observations which I quoted was correct. It is now,
however, clear that the expressions which are attributed to
him by the newspapers have be en inaccurately recorded.
(Cheers.) I now beg to repeat the question :—Have the
noble lord the member for London and the hon. member
for Birmingham so completely agreed as to the course which
they are to pursue as that they are to row in the same boat,
which interpreted means, it appears, that they are to be in
the same lobby when a division is taken on this amend-
ment ? If the answer should be in the affirmative then I
should wish to learn upon what principle their compact is
founded ? Does it or does it not include the question of vote
by ballot ? (Cheers.) If it does. include that question then
I should like to know how hon. gentlemen opposite, who
sit above the gangway, can concur with the noble lord in
the course which he is takins. ? (Cheers.) If, upon the
other hand, it does not include the ballot, how, let me ask,
are those hon. gentlemen prepared to act who have told
their constituents that any extensi on of the suffrage un-
accompanied by the ballot would be a curse rather than a
blessing ? (Hear, hear.) Will they vote for the amend-
ment of the noble lord? (Cheers.) I now come to the sub-
ject of the redistribution of seats. We are all aware of
that which the present bill proposes to d o in that direc-
tion. It takes 15 seatf from boroughs which possess two.
We also know what the bill introduced by the noble lord
proposed to do—namely, to take away 50 or 60 seats. We
are aware that the measure of the hon. member for Birming-
ham proposed to affect a much greater number ; I now for •
get how many. Now several hon. members opposite, in
arguing this question upon the basstings, have stated that the
extension of the franchise without a re-distribution of seats
would be a farce and a sham. (Ch eers and laughter.) If
that be so, and if the noble lord the- member for London
and the hon. member for Birmingham are quite agreed as
to the course which they are to take o.n the present occa-
sion, I am anxious to know what part of their compact
touches, and how it touches. this questior t of re-distribution ?
(Hear, hear.) It is but fair that the noble lord should tell
the country what he means to do in reference to this sub-
ject. I for one do not think the country co to be gulled by
being told that hon. gentlemen opposite are the champions
of freeholders who have been handed down to us from the
days of William the Conqueror. (Cheers.) Tell the peo-
ple boldly what you would do in this respee,t, if you had
power placed in your hands to-morrow. (Wear, hear.)
What seats would you take away? How many- electors—
no matter where they came from—would you .deprive of
their votes? (Cheers.) In order to catch the popular ap-
plause you pretend that you aro anxious to admit to the
franchise some persons who hare it not, but do not conceal
the designs that you have upon voters who will be at-
tacked, and whom, if you have the power, you will deprive
of the franchise. (Cheers.) But I ask another question—
What does the noble lord mean to do with the borough out-
rage ? He has not told us. He says it is not the proper
course to take in opposition to tell you what he would do if
he were in office. But, at all events, I remember what was
said by a right hon. colleague of the noble lord—the right
hon. baronet the member for Morpeth. Mr. Hume some
years ago proposed in this house an abstract resolution
something like the amendment proposed by the noble lord.
Mr. Hume did not specify the extent to which he would
go ; and what said the right honourable baronet the mem-
ber for Morpeth? He said, " Before you take away the
constitution we have, at all events let us know what you are
going to give us in its place." Now, I say to the noble
lord, at all events let us know what you mean to give us in
place of this bill, which you won't allow to be considered
even on the second reading. (Hear, hear.) Hut Ido not
want merely to know what the noble lord would propose in
itt; place. I want to know what probability there is of the
concurrence of the country in any proposition that he might
make. We have seen meetings upon this subject. I heard
an hon. member last night saythat there had been meetings
on every hustings in the kingdom. Ido not think that is
quite accurate. (A laugh.) I have seen meetings, and I
have seen a singular unanimity in them, because there has
not been a meeting of which I have seen a report which has
not terminated not merely in expressing an opinion on the
Government Bill, but in going further, and calling for trien-
nial Parliaments, for household suffrage, sometimesfor man-
hood suffrits.be, sometimes for universal suffrage, always for
vote by ballot. (Opposition cheers.) Well, I want to knout
which part of this extensive bill of fare the noble lord, in
his agreement with the hon. member for Birmingham, has
permitted himself to select. (Cheers and laughter.) It is
only fair that we should know, because it is not many
years since a passage of arms on this subject took place
between the noble lord and the lion, member for Birming-
ham, which ended in anything but an amicable manner. I
speak of the motion which was made with regard to the
extension of the borough suffrage. What did the noble lord
then say of the hon. member for Birmingham, who then
sat for Manchester as its member ? The noble lord said this.
He said, " What I have to find fault with in the hon. mem-
ber for Manchester and those who agree with him is, that
they are so exceedingly narrow-minded. (Great laughter
and cheers.) Set them upon the subjects upon which they
are particularly conversant, and I ligten with great admira-
tion to their extensive knowledge and acute ability;
but when we come to discuss la;^gp 'questions such
as concern the fortune of our erai•nre, then I see
they have intellect and un.derstancling lssund up in so nar-
row a round—(laughter)—that it is imps issible to get them
to understand those great principles on w.hich our ancestors
founded the constitution of this counts y, and which we,
their successors, humbly admire and endaivour to follow."
(Great laughter, and cheers.) That was the view which
the noble lord then took of the views of the hon. member
for Birmingham upon this subject. We have been told, and
it has been repeated to us to-night, that now- the noble lord
and the hon. member for Birmingham are quite agreed as
to the course to be taken with regard to this bill—quite
agreed, I suppose, in every sense—peed not merely as to
this attempt to get rid of a bill of this kind by an amend-
ment, but agreed as to what the consequences of that amend-
ment musbe, and as to what the end of that must bs of
which this is only the beginning. (Cheers.) Well, I .ask
for information. Many hon. members have yet to speak.
The hon. member for Birmingham has to speak. I ask for
information on the points I have mentioned—vote by ballot,
redistribution of seats, and extension of the borough fr an-
chise. Specifically, I want to know what is the extent of
the agreement between the noble lord and the hon. member
for Birmingham. I think, as a House of Commons, we are
also entitled to ask this question, what probability is there
of support to the noble lord and the hon. member for I Mr-
raingham from the followers who sit around him on these
points ? (Cheers.) The noble lord may depend upon it that
these questions will not be asked merely in this house, hut
they will also be asked in the country. (Hear, hear.) The
noble lord appeals as a proof of his sincerity in his amend-
ment to his long known and long-tried attachment to the
cause of reform. We all know and admit the noble lord's
attachment to this question. But we also know that thl !:re
is a form of the tender passion which sometimes develoi pea
itself in jealousy of any attention to the object of its affect ion
from any other quarter. (Laughter and cheers.) I thi,sik
the noble lord exposes himself to some misconstruction .on
this point. (Laughter.) -We have heard it said—
" Strong were his hopes his rival to remove ;
With blandishments to gain the public love;
To head the faction while their zeal was hot, •
And popularly prosecute the plot."
(Laughter.) Whether this is so or not I know not, but •of
this lam sure—that the country will ask—the country hal7e
asked already—what are the real intentions of the nob le
lord, and what are the objects which he proposes to himself
in meeting a bill of this kind, notopenly, not broadly, bs it
by en ambiguous and most irregular amendment—(loi:id
cheers)—which commits nobody and which means nothir i.g
that is precise. (Laughter and cheers.) The people of th.is
country have differed, and they always will differ, about
Reform Bills, about theories of representation, about soth d
and domestic legislation of any kind. But there is one sub -
ject upon which the people of this country are entirel; y
agreed. They do not like anything which bears the leas t
appearance of approaching to artifice or—l must use a
homely phrase—a dodge. (Loud cheers.) They do not lik e
it in business, they do not like it in politics, but least of al LI
will they admire it in a man who; at a time when the bes t
interests of his country at home and our most peacefn .1
hopes abroad demand all the patriotism, all the candour,
and all the forbearance of a statesman—(vehement cheers)
—approaches the consideration of a great national question
like this, not fairly to criticise, not boldly to reject, but coin-
triving a crafty and catching device to confuse and, if it
may be, to dislocate parties, and in that confusion al ad
dislocation to secure his own. political aggrandisement ai ad
private advantage. (Loud and prolonged cheering.)
Mr. M. GIBSON moved.the adjournment of the debat e.
Mr. WILSON said, in common with the house, he felt
the greatest admiration for the oration they had just heard
and therefore did not like to interrupt the hon. and learned
gentleman. What he said with regard to freeholders in
boroughs being a fluctuating class, was that as changes were
made by sale or otherwise, the new comers would be entitled
to. the option of choosing between the county and borough,
and therefore the class would be to that extent fluctuating.
The debate was then adjourned till Thursday.
The house adjourned at twenty-five minutes to one
o'clock.

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