The Sun.
London, England, 1859-06-08 00:00:00

think the House of Lords ought to be called on at that
moment to come to any vote which might place the two
houses in opposition. The question of real importance, and
that which the country desired, was to see both houses sup-
port some good Government in a course consistent with the
honour:and interests of the country. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of MALMESBURY—AIthough my noble
friend who has just spoken has made one of those speeches
which we usually hear on such occasions as the present, and
has carefully avoided discussing the subjects mentioned in
her Majesty's speech, yet I cannot regret that he has ad-
dressed your lordships, inasmuch as the observations
which have fallen from him are not altogether de-

void of interest. I am personally much obliged to
my noble friend for having given me fair notice of those
Parliamentary attacks which I must expect, and which
I shall be fully prepared to meet whenever the time
for making them shall have arrived, but which I do not
think it right or convenient to your lordships that I should
further advert to this evening, inasmuch as you are not in
a position to have obtained that information which it is de-
sirable you should possess before such discussions are en-
tered upon, and which I trust to be able, to lay upon the
table of the house in the course of three or four days. It is
my intention to place before you at full length all the cor-
respondence which has occurred between her Majesty's
Ministers and foreign Governments in relation to the war
which has unfortunately recently broken out on the Conti-
nent, and to acquaint you with the efforts which have been
made by her Majesty's Government to prevent that event.
The correspondence will embrace the communications of some
five or six months, and although it is somewhat lengthy, yet
I have thought it better to lay it before you entire and to
run the risk of its appearing somewhat tedious rather than
keep back any part of itfrom your inspection. I shall, under
those circumstances, make no defence at the present moment
against the charge which my noble friend has brought for-
ward, to the effect that her Majesty's Government are re-
sponsible, not indeed, he admits, through want of zeal or
energy, but through want of skill and ability for not hav-
ing arrested the calamity of war in Europe. We have, at
all events, my lords, so far succeeded as to have prevented
this country from being involved in the contest ; nor do I
think it is upon the theatre of the present war that noble
lords opposite should seek their giound of battle with her
Majesty's Government. Before the noble earl who has
just spoken again reverts to this subject I hope he will pe-
ruse not only the despatches which I have written during
the late negotiations, but that he will also direct his atten-
tion to those which were laid before Parliament in 1848,
and in which a noble viscount in another place took sopro •
minent a part. And while giving expression to this hope,
I may be allowed to say that much of what has been left
upon my hands is due to the policy which that noble vis-
count pursued in lB4B—(hear,hft f)—when he had a golden
opportunity, such as has fallen to lot of no other states-
man, of emancipating a large portion of Italy, and rescuing
it—if indeed rescue it can be called—from the oppres-
sien of which Austria is accused. My noble friend must
not forget what were called the " Italian Papers," in 1848,
when he makes an attack upon me. (Hear, hear.)
They would serve to point out to him more clearly what has
been effected in 1859, and I am not afraid of the comparison
which may be instituted between the Government of that
day and!lier Majesty's present Administration. (Hear.)
Lord HOWDEN said their lordships would recollect that
about a month ago, he believed on the 3d of May, a pro-
clamation was posted on the walls of Paris, and through
the departments, which was at once an explanation of the
past and a programme of the future, In that proclamation
was this :phrase, which he would translate as well as he
could—" The Austrians have brought things to such a pass
that they must be either masters of Italy, or Italy must be
free to the Italians." He did not understand that. That
was of little consequence. But what was of great conse-
quence was that he ardently hoped it was understood by her
Majesty's Government. He was not about to extenuate the
transgressions of Austria, but they ought to think of what
might arise if France was the power to administer the
punishment of them. (Hear, hear.) The phrase to which
he referred might mean a little or a great deal, according to
the method.which was taken to work it out. But he was
perfectly convinced that that meaning should be known
to her Majesty's Government, and even that it should be
made known to thepeople of this country through her Ma-
jesty's Government. Did this phrase mean that some
Italian domination, existing in some Italian head, was to
become master of Italy from the Mediterranean to the
Adriatic ? He had no objection to that whatever. He
wished it might be the case, with all his heart. But he was
sure that it was a matter of somewhat difficult execution.
(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he had no oppor-
tunity of faking part in any of the discussions of their lord-
ships' house since his diplomatic employment in Italy.
His nage friend (Lord Granville) had stated the reason
why he ad not moved an amendment to the address. But
he thought that explanation was unnecessary, for on all the
points which he so ably put, there was no ground of im-
putation on which it would be possible to move an amend-
ment. (" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial bench.) He
believed that a dissolution had been forced on the Govern-
ment. (Ministerial cheers.) He did not blame his noble
friend the member for the City of London for the course
he had taken, but still he believed no ,other course was
open to the Government than the one they had followed.
In 1841 he alone opposed the dissolution proposed by
Lord Melbourne's cabinet, and though Lord Melbourne
shared his opinion to a great extent he was not able to re-
sist the majority of the Government. He should, there-
fore, be surprised if the amendment which was spoken of
was founded on any constitutional objection. (Hear, hear.)
He could not, therefore, participate in such an association
as had been formed for that purpose. (Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial bench.) He did not think it was sufficient to
say to the Government, " You are in a minority in the house
at this time," unless you could show that there was some
other party ready to replace them, and to conduct the Go-
vernment without any compromise of principles. (Cheers.)
With regard to the questions put by his noble friend who
had just spoken, there was another which he should like to
put—namely, whether the Government did or did not con-
sider they were deceived in the progress of the negotia-
•
France wa.snot arming or preparing for war, that she was
only supplying the ordinary deficiencies in her military
esthblishments, they could not expect to find that African
regiments would be at an hour',l3 notice within a very con-
venient distance of the Italian frontier. (Hear.) They
always heard that the proposed congress was to be conducted
on the views of the treaties of 1815. But he only spoke of
what was within his personal knowledge when he stated
that the next day after the landing of the French in Genoa
a conspiracy which had been carried out under the diplo-
macy of the Sardinian Minister broke out in Tuscany, and
the lawful prince was obliged to leave the country. (Hear,
hear.) Attempts were next made to .revolutionise Modena
and Parma. Next there arrived a Frendh prince at Leg-
horn, which threw a suspicion on the whole of these pro:
ceedings. It had been stated that he had been only sent
there for strategic purposes. But any cadet from one of
their military colleges could have told this general that the
only strategic operation which could be accomplished in
that part of Italy was to keep as far as possible from the
scene of action. (Hear, and laughter.) But if no strategic
object, was there no other object in view ? It should be re-
collected that in the treaty of Tilsit there was a clause which
affected British interests. It was not the object of that
clause that the Mediterranean should become, as it was
called, a French lake, but that it should become only open
to the powers that bordered on that sea. That was to be ac-
companied by the expulsion of England from Malta and
Gibraltar. Their lordships should bear in mind the history
of the settlement of Russia at Villafranca. The port of
Genoa was now not only in the hands of the French, bnt
French officials had taken palaces there for three or four
years. France was also in possession of Civita Vecchia, and
of Leghorn. A great naval commander of Russia, the Grand
Duke Constantine, happened to be in the kingdom of the Two
Sicilies when there was some dispute between the members
of the royal family as to the succession to the throne, and
when asked which party he _would support, the Grand Duke
was reported td. have said he would be for the legitimate
successor. These were all steps towards that monopoly of
the Mediterranean which the treaty of Tilsit referred to.
But was that all ? What was happening at Venice ? It was
blockaded by the'French fleet; and not only that, but Trieste
had been and would be blockaded. In the face of all these
circumstances England ought to be on tier guard. (Hear.)
And they ought to be careful not to show any sympathy with
the party who was chiefly engaged in these concerns. He
saw that at the meeting held yesterday a noble friend of his,
the member for Tiverton, took that opportunity of express-
ing his sympathy with the Italian cause. But, addressing
the electors of Tiverton on another occasion, he went further,
and expressed a hope " that before the end of the campaign
Austria would be expelled from Italy." But let not the
house be led away by this delusion of Italian freedom. In
every one of the proclamations that had been lately issued
the freedom of Italy had been omitted. The independence of
Italy was retained, but that independence would be the re-
sult„of assistance given by a great power, which it was the
intention of Europe to exclude from Italy, It was singular
that this language about the treaties of 1815 came from a
noble lord who, of all the living statesmen of England, was
the only ono who acted a part in their formation ; whereas
he recollected that he and his noble and learned friend be-
hind him (Lord Brougham) then members of the house, en-
deavoured to get some o the provisions of those treaties mo-
dified on the ground that they were too arbitrarily framed.
He should always speak with gratitude of the manner in
which he had been assisted by the present Emperor of the
French in conducting the negotiations between the two
countries during the time he was the constitutional
chief of the State. He was aware at the time that he
(Lord Normanby) took a different view of affairs from what
he did himself, but he still admitted that the view he took
was a natural one for an Englishman to take ; and ever
since 'that time he never found tbejilightest difference in the
conduct of that illustrious individual towards him. Though
he had no particular reason to show any partiality to Lord
Derby, still he sincerely believed that, as long as the. Go-
vernment was consistently carried on, as it had been by his
noble friend, it was not for the advantage of the country at
this crisis in foreign affairs, that the Government should be
displaced, until there was more unity of purpose amongst
those who were seeking to displace it—above all, so long as
we were threatened with a statesman as Prime, Minister
who had declared in the face of Europe that he hoped, be-
fore the end of the campaign, that Austria would be ex-
pelled from Italy. (Hear, hear.) He (the Marquis) did
not approve of all the acts. of the 'Austrian Government.
They had not the art of making the worse appear the better,
but they had sometimes the misfortune of making the better
appear the worse. (Hear, hear.) lie hoped that we should
not place in power a Government which was pledged to go
tots themec abstainntil
against Austria. He feared that he had exhausted their
lordships' patience, though he was not half exhausted him-
self. (A laugh.) He was glad that no amendment was pro-
om
(Heare,
Earl of
CARLISLE
hi st friendsr doing c could ladn
yt agreehanything
that amongstw ud themselves,
weaken
the Government. He had never voted more conscientiously
in favour of an address than he should for the present one.
qu whichentya
and debate
satisfactorily u p ut he addressoccupied.
The
he alwaysg general
said he did not rise with any
Th
intention of entering upon the wide field of general topics''
erlyalyquPeestiotn
discussion. That extensive ground had alread a beeno open to
from
oemnof
and
importantt., po policy must be without
of foreign affairs and of our foreign
any that could
doubt the most interesting
eeyorncurred in
now stimulate public attention.
the policy announced in the speel
the opinion which was generally, he might say unanimously,ron9, and in
entertained by all the leading statesmen of Jis country,.n-
eluding Lord Palmerston, who he felt sure admitted as fully
as any man, and would maintain, the policy and the duty of
keeping this country aloof, under every possible circumstance
which did not affect its honour, from what had been so well
described as the wanton, wicked, and bloody war that was
now desolating the fairest regions of Europe. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord who had just sat down was much mistaken
in supposing that Lord Palmerston would not be actuated
by impartiality in his feelings or conduct towards the belli-
gerent powers. There was a real and honest determination
on the part of the leading men of all parties in this country
to keep us to the strict letter of neutrality; and it would be
wholly superfluous for him to add any words of his to that
general declaration. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of EGLINTON said, he had no intention of
taking part in the discussion of that evening until he had