The Sun.
London, England, 1832-09-14 00:00:00

In a few days will be published, in 2 vols post Bvo.
I 4 EGENDS of the LIBRARY at LILIES
By the LORD and LADY there.
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London :
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Just ready, in 2 vols. Bvo., with two Portraits,
THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF
MEMOIRS OF GENERAL LA
FAYETTE, and of the FRENCH REVOLU
TION of 1830.

By B. SARRANS,
Private S,cretary to General Lafayette.
Richard Bentley, (late Colburn and Bentley,)
New Burlington-street.

PORTRAIT of the QUEEN of BEL-,
GIUM GRATIS with the COURT JOURNAL
of TO-MORROW.

This beautiful original Portrait (engraved on steel by
Freeman) of the Queen of Belgium will be accompanied
by an entirely original and interesting Memoir of Inr Ma-
jesty, obtained from sources not open to any other journal.
Orders should be forwarded to the Newsvenders and
Booksellers without delay.
Office, 19, Catherine-street, Strand.

GARNETT'S PURE BALSAM OF CAPIVI PILLS.
THESE PILLS consist of the pure Capivi
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generally admitted. Hitherto the impossibility of admi-
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MEETING OF I..IIDDLESEX MAGISTRATES.
—The usual Sessional Meeting of the Middlesex Magis-
trates was held yesterday in the County Court, Clerken-
well-green. The Deputy Clerk of the Peace read a letter
addressed to him by Mr. CONST on the previous day, re-
peating his wish to retire ; but adding, that he would re-
tain the office for one additional Session, if his so doing
would facilitate the proposed arrangements of the Court.
After that period, he wished it to be distinctly understood
he should certainly decline acceding to any further ap-
plication. Mr. Karen moved that Mr. CONST be re-
quested to remain in office till the close of the October
Session. Mr. ORME seconded the motion, which several
gentlemen expressed their approval of; and, on the ques-
tion being put, it was carried without a single dissentient.
During the above discussion, 'Mr. CONST bad continued in
the private room down stairs, where Sir JOHN GIBBON
and other gentlemen now waited on him, and returned
shortly afterwards and announced that Mr. CONST had
consented to comply with their wishes. A vote of thanks
to him for so doing was moved by Mr. Rolm'', and carried
by acclamation.. The meeting separred, after disposing
of sonic general business.
The Frances Charlotte female convict ship
arrived last week, at Sheerness, from Woolwich, with
convicts for New South Wales. She has also on board
50 spinsters, free settlers, or (which means the same
thing) free to settle, for they are going on a matrimonial
spec. She remains at the Little Nore under quarantine.
CANADA.—The number of emigrants who
had landed at Quebec, up to the 10th ult., the date of the
last accounts, rather exceeded 44,000 ; of these there had
arrived from England, 15,336 ; front Irel.nd, 21,400 ;
from Scotland, 4,101 ; from Ilatnburgb and Gibraltar,
9 ; and the remainder from Nova Scotia, Pictuu, &c. The
arrivals of emigrants, up to the date of the accounts, ex
seeded, by about 4,000, the number that had landed up
to the same period last year. The number of vessels that
had arrived at Quebec, up to the departure of the ac-
counts, was 650 ; up to the corresponding period of last
year, about 580 had arrived. The sales of land were
going on briskly. The returns received from Upper Ca-
nada show that in the month of July, the Canada Com-
pany had disposed of 12,332 acres—vz. in the Crown
Reserves, 7,742 acres ; in the Huron Tract, 3,333 acres ;
and in Guelph, 1,257 acres. The average prices obtained
fur the lands have not been returned. The cholera mot-
bus continued to prevail, and its victims were chiefly per-
sons of the middle rank. The total deaths in Quebec,
since the disease first brake out, were 1,790. The ma-
lady had shown. itself in most of the small districts of
Canada. In trade and commerce much more activity
prevailed.

It' the accounts from Swan River, via the
Cape of Good Hope, are to be believed, the young colony
is not in so prosperous a state as we are led to infer from
the direct accounts. Considerable gloom is said to have
n thrown over the community, owing to a check which
the Home Government had put upon the power of the Go-
vernor to draw bills upon the British Treasury, for un-
limited sums, and the appointment of a commissary to
supersede tie disbursements of the service. One of the
chief merchants is said to have broken up his establish-
ment, and removed to Launceston, and many others were
leaving. Vegetables and proviswns continued extremely
dear. Onions were Is. per lb. Pears for seed is. per
pint. Butter 2s 61. per lb., and other articles in propor-
sion. Other letters, however, by the Egliptian, state
generally that the settlers were quite satisfied, and mony
had even decided nut to leave, should Government ulti-
mately give up the colony. The fanners had excellent
crops of corn and hay, and the country bore a very fertilc
appearance. One grin of wheat had produced 24S ears
of from 50 to 100 grains each. The corn, upon an aver-
age, produced 60Iba to the bushel. Vegetables grow to an
immense size, melons were in abundance, without cultiva.
tion, and tobacco grows well. Sugar also could be culti-
vated. The timber was large and plentiful, and some the trees produced medicinal gums. More labourers were,
however, required, and stock was much wanted. Boots
and shoes were very scarce, but of all scarcities that of the
fair sex is most complained of.

COMMITTEE ON THE BANK OF ENG-

LAND CHARTER.

Examination of THOMAS Arrwoon, Esq.

. _
You are a banker at Birmingham ?—I am.
Will you state what effect the exclusive privileges of tb
Bank of England have had, in your opinion, upon the
banking at Birmingham 7—l think no evil effect whatever.
Will yon state what good effect they have had ?—The
good effect is perhaps difficult to state; but I have never
experienced any inconvenience from the fact of the Bulk
of England being the only chartered hank in England.
Do you conceive that there is any bad effect resulting
from the power which the Balk of England have over the
circulation, of the country ?—A very had effect has arisen
from the fluctuations in the Bank of England notes ; but
I do not consider that the fluctuations have been in any
way attributable to the Bank of England.
Do you consider that the restriction which exists against

any husk having a larger nuntb.T of partners than six
being permitted to draw bills tinder 501. upon London, or
to issue notes payable in London, is disadvantageous to
the public?—Unquestionahly not in the slightest degree.
Do you think it advantageous ?—I think the whole
system of joint stock banks erroneous and very dangerous;
and therefore the more it is limited, in my opinion, the
better for the country, and the better ultimately for the
parties concerned.

Then you would not advise the taking off any restric-
tions at present existing upon joint stock banks ?—Un-
que,tionably not ; I should rather recommend an increased
restriction upon them.
What is your opinion of the effect of the branch banks
of the Bank of England ?—I have considered that the
branch banks have been a material protection to the coun-
try, enabling it to slide gradually into a state of depression
and extreme distress, which must have occurred suddenly
and much more terribly had it not been for the assistance
of the branch banks.

Is it your opinion, that, assuming that the reverting to
the ancient standard was an evil, the branch banks have
enatded the country to come into that state with greater
ease than it would have done if the branch banks had net
existed ?—I must beg leave to answer that in a guarded
way. Ido not think the branches have enabled us to ac-
cotnp!ish that o!ject. I do not think we are yet one-
tenth pat t of the way to that object ; but I am sure the
branch banks have prevented a great explosion of our mo-
netary system years ago.
You conceive that the branches of the Bank of England
have facilitated the progress of the country to the standard ?
—Yee.

In what way do you conceive that they have so ope-
rated ?—By administering very large masses of circulating
money into channels directly acting upon industry and
credit.

When you sty circulating money, do you mean bank
notes and bullion ?-13oth.

In what manner have they effected that object ?—I have
no knowledge of the extent of the issues of the branch
bank; but I know they are lar4e at Birmingham, and
at many other places are exceedingly extensive ; in fact, I
know that but for their discounts the whole of our
neighbourhood, all the manufacturers, and all the mer-
chants, generally speaking, must have been exposed to
much greater difficulties than they have endured. I am
unwilling to say the extent to which those difficulties
would have gone, because it is painful to reveal the true
situation of one's neighbours, and we get blamed for it.
Have they effected this object, of giving an increase to the
circulating medium of Birmingham, by the facility of dis-
counts, or by discounting bills at a lower rate?—l❑ no
other way than by increasing the facility of discounts,
thereby keeping up, not only the mass of circulation acting
upon industry and credit, but also keeping up the confi-
dence of our bankers.

How have they increased the facility of discounts?—
By discounting generally all the best bills that exist in the
neighbourhood, none of the bad ones, and none of the dif-
ficult ones, which are the weak points, and which require
assistance.

Would not the country bankers existing in -Birming-
ham before have been very ready to discount those good
bills 2--I have no doubt that they would, but the distress
would have been so great, that they would neither have
had the power under that issue, nor the will ; as it is,
they have got all the bad bills left in their bands, and all
the locked-up debts, all the d ingerous and doubtful and
difficult affairs are left as legacies of ruin in the hands of
the old bankers. The joint stock banks and the branch
banks take away all the best of the business.
Is not that injurious to the private hankers of Bir-
mingham ?—The joint stock banks are exceedingly inju-
rious. The branch bank lam not prepared to say is in-

furious.
If the branch bank takes away a large portion of the
good bills from the country hankers, does not that injure
the country bankers 2—Very much so; but under the cir-
cumstances of the country in the last seven years, that very
fact has proved a great assistance to the bankers.
Has it brought down the rate of discount?—l never
heard a merchant complain of the rate of discount,
because banking accommodation is too valuable and too
important to make it of any consequence whatever whe-
ther he pays 5 per cent. or 10 per cent.
Has the effect been to lower the rate of discount ?-1
think not; I do not think any of the bankers in Bir-
mingham discount lower than they did during the war.
What was the rate of discount previous to 1325 2—Five
per cent, and ss. commission.
Was that upon loans or upon good hills ?—Upon good

What is the rate of discount in Birmingham at present ?
—The same.
Does not the branch bank discount at 4 per cent ?
Yes, and that draws the good bills ; the branch bank
takes none but the best bills.
Then, in point of fact, the effect in Birmingham has
been to lower the rate of discount upon bills one per
cent. ?---Yes, ,o far as concerns the bills discounted by
the branch.
take a l.cniteoutt
e'royhate
kv
7hl ne
Bo e ci on ne
smt
ae
bn s
hai
gy
bmr
ae an scuhr ebsa
ntkos bi
ne
established i?n-Thjeschuouunbtir;,'isphronviodreed .btrhae'irchdebaalinkgss twoerbee
confined to the country bankers; then I believe a real
country hanker would never again !cop payment in England.
That is to say, provided the competition of the branch
banks with the country bankers was withdrawn ?--Yes.
Why should there be that distinction drawn between
the bankers and the merchants in the country, when no
such distinction is drawn between the merchants and
bankers in London, the Bank of England in London dis-
counting as well for merchants as for bankers?—The
system is so dove-tailed in the habits of 100 years, that it
is difficult to say how habits grow up; in London one set
of habits have grown up, and in the country another, and a
system which is healthy after 100 years' operation in Lon-
don, may be exceedingly unhealthy, if applied to the great
difficulties and embarrassments that exist in the growth of
100 years throughout the country.
Do you mean that if the branch bank had not been at
Birmingham, all the inferior bills which the bankers now
take would have been rejected by them ?—I think they
would ; I think if the bankers had had the good bills
brought to them, they would have rejected the bad ones,
and the bad ones would have increased the great mass of
misery in the country.
Does not the Bank discounting at a lower rate to
bankers than they do to merchants, give an opportunity to
the bankers of discounting at the same rate to the public?
—I am not aware that the Bank of England discounts with
the hankers at a lower rate than with merchants ; cer-
tainly not in the country; it is only so where the bankers
410 not issue their own notes, and then only to a limited
ainount, taking from the country banker his bills, which
are left in the hands of the Bank of England, who may
turn round upon him at 24 hours' notice, and cause his ruin.
Are there any instances with which you are acquainted
of the branch banks suddenly turning round upon a
banker who has been in the habit of discounting with
him, and refusing to discount any of his bills ?—I never
knew of one within my own knowledge ; I only know
that they p,
esis.r•i'lise.
the of doing so, which is of itself
yeienily
Is that, in your
ropinion, a sufficient objection to the
country bankers receiving that kind of accommodation
from the branch banks?—l think it is a much greater
evil than the one per cent. saved is a benefit.
Do you think it would be any advantage to the country
bankers, or to the public, if they were allowed to pay their
notes in Bank of England paper?—A very great advan-
tage, I think, to the public.
Will it be necessary to make Bank of England notes a
legal tender generally in that case?—lf they were made a
legal tender from all persons but the Bank of England, 1

think it would give unbounded satisfaction to the country,
and be perfectly safe.
In what way would it be advantageous to the public ?--
I think much more confidence would be exhibited amot-te
all classes of tradesmen, and much more industry employed
beneficially.
Would it be advantageous to the bankers also ?—I think
it would.
In case of a period of panic, what would be the effect
upon the population at a distance from London in such a
case?—lt would be a vast protection to the bankers,
and to the public, in such a case.
Though it would he a protection to the bankers, would
it not deprive the inhabitants of the country of the power
of acquiring coin, in order to make their payments ?--- I
think not ; I think they would send their bank-notes to
London very readily, and they would get gold in the course
of three days, and I think it would give dissatisfaction to
no human being.
Do you think that every small holder of bank-notes i❑
the country would in that case send his notes to London ;
do you not think that there would be, as there are in
France, money changers, who charge an agio for convert-
ing Paris bills into cash, and that in times of panic there
might be a considerable discount charged upon the ex-
change of bank-notes ?—I think no panic could ever arise
towards the notes of the Bank of England in the present
state of the public mind.
Have you never known any instance in which persons
have wished for gold in preference to Bank of England
notes?—Not from panic.
From what cause?—For the purpose of exporting gold,
or of hoarding it.
Have you never known it from any other cause?—l
never knew a desire of getting bank-notes converted into
gold for any purpose but either for that of exportation or
of hoarding ; they never prefer gold to bank-notes in any
other case.
What do vim call a political excitement with a view to
distress the Government ?—That is hoarding.
Is it not the nature of a panic to be vague and undefined,
and, without reasoning much upon whether the Bank of
England may ultimately be solvent or not, to desire to con-
vert the paper into gold?—I believe that 99 men out of
100 throughout England, at present believe the bank-note
to be a legal tender, like the sovereign.
If that is the general belief, what should have induced
people, during the late political excitement, to endeavour
to convert their Rank of England notes into gold ?-111ore
a political object than a fear of loss : no fear of loss, cer-
tainly.

Could they believe that a Bank of England note was a
legal tender, when they were generally aware of their
power of converting the Bank of England note into gold,
and exercised that power?—The better informed men, of
course, knew ; the merchants and manufacturers of Lon-
don, of course, know that the bank-note is not a legal
tender; they know it now, but they did not know it dur-
ing the panic of 1825.
Did not this panic in May last extend to small traders
and working people ?—The real object of that run was,
first, political men were displeased, and they said—We
will do all the mischief we can by the legal means in our
power ; the second object was, that every man was
alarmed, and thought that society was going to break up,
and he thought lie would have a few sovereigns for protec-
tion, thinking that the bank-notes would be worth nothing
in a general stoppage.
Does not that prove the very point, that at particular
periods panic does extend to the mass of the people?—The
effect of a drain upon the Bank of England certainly may
be occasioned in the present state of the law.
Supposing the Bank of England note was made a legal
tender by country bankers, how would you provide with a
smaller currency in the country ?--I see no hope of doing
it whatever, but in the Bank of England making 11. notes.
Would not the necessity which the country banker must
in all cases be in, of paying broken sums in less than 51.,
make it necessary for hint to pay a certain quantity of so-
vereigns in exchange?—l think it would render it neces-
sary for him to have either 11. Bank of England notes, or
to lie compelled to pay sovereigns.
Might not they be allowed to pay in Bank of England
notes in exchange for their liabilities, although there were
no Bank of England n-tee under Si. ?—Undoubtedly.
As the country bankers at present are not allowed to

issue notes below 51., why would it be necessary, in order
to enable them to change those notes for Bank of England
paper, that the Bank of England should issue notes below
Si. ?—I should think it dangerous to make Bank of Eng-
land notes a legal tender from the country bankers, with-
out making them a legal tender from all other persons at
the same time.

What necessity would there he for having notes of a
smaller denomination of the Bank of England, in order to
xnab'e other persons to take them as a legal tender ?—I
think that the probability is that the prosperity consequent
upon this change would be such, that it would raise the
prices of manufactured goods, and turn the exchanges ul-
timately against us.

Do you apprehend that the making Bank of England
notes a legal tender would have the effect of turning the
exchanges against us ?—I think it might lie expected to do
so in a few years : I think it would increase the facilities
of accommodation, and the circulation of money, and
prices of commodities, and the prosperity of the country.
In what way would it increase the facilities of accom-
modation :'—The country bankers, having Bank of Eng-
land notes made a legal tender, would keep a less quantity
of sovereigns, and would throw them into circulation, and
they would feel a greater degree of confidence in their own
minds; and I think merchants and manufacturers gene-
rally would feel a greater degree of confidence, and I think
the d,m4nd for Bank of England notes in the country
would be materially lessened. I think the country notes
would wage a kind of war with them to a certain extent,
and an increase of country bank-notes would take place
under their protection.

Why should country hankers feel an increased confidence
in consequence of being able to pay their notes in Bank of
England paper, would they be able to procure Bank of
England paper on cheaper terms tha❑ they are able now to
procure sovereigns ?—ln no other way, except in their
mental operation upon confidence and credit ; I think it
would act upon confidence and credit so as to increase the
circulation of the country and the prices of property.
Is it not the fact that the country banker could not ac-
quire 1,0001. of Bank of England notes, unless he gave
security worth 1,000 sovereigns ?—True, and lie can now
conve. t his bank-notes into sovereigns, if he wishes it, as he
could then ; still I think the making the Bank of Eng-
land note a legal tender would have a great effect upon
credit, and confidence, and prices in the country.
If, then, the effect of this measure would be to turn
the exchanges against us, would not that produce a draught
of bullion from the Bank of England ?—Certainly.
If it produces a draught of bullion from the Bank of
England, do you think that that draught of bullion from
the Bank of England would be permanent ? —lt would
continue till it brought down prices again to their present
level, or rather lower.

Do you tbinliitould be an advantage to the country
to produce that fluctuation ?—I think even a temporary
prosperity is hater thin certain ruin.
Would nut that temporary prosperity, if it were to pro•
duce such a re-action as you describe, produce as certain
ruin as you think would take place in the present state of
things ?—I am not certain that it would produce that re-
action, beca'use an increase of paper credit, and a greater
confidence consequent upon its operation, would occasion
a rise of prices throughout Europe; for, the nations, being
relieved from the extreme pressure they now feel, would
certainly raise the prices of their manufactures; and the
quantity of bullion thrown out of England, perhaps one-
half of what now exists iu England, would produce so
much prosperity in foreign countries, that it would also
assist in elevating their prices, and in enabling them to
consume at high prices our manufactured goods in the
same way as they do now at low prices.
In what manner would a rise in the price of the manu-
factures, which foreign nations buy from England, be any
relief to the foreign nations ?—The foreign manufacturers
being relieved from the extreme pressure of the English
cheap manufactures in their markets, would immediately
raise the price of foreign manufactures, and foreign na-

tions, receiving a mass of our bullion, would have the
means of paying those high prices, and of giving higher
prices for English manufactures.
Do you suppose that the mode in which foreign nations
would receive this mass of bullion would be in consequence
of the exchanges being against this country ?—The ba-
lance of exchange or the balance of trade being turned
against this country, would certainly carry out a part of
the bullion ; I sin not sure that it would carry out so great
a proportion as to create another fall of prices.
Do you know what was the state of the prices abroad
Jast year, the time when gold was leaving the country; and

the balance of trade consequently against us?—A great de-
preciation of price, all over the continent, in manufactures
And therefore the export of a quantity of bullion from
this country to the continent had not the effect of raising
prices upon the continent ?—Not immediately, but in the
course of a few years it must have that effect.
Yon have stated, that the consequence of making Bank
of Euglind notes a legal tender every where, except at the
Bank of England, would be to raise prices, and to tut it
the exchanges against us ; is it not a necessary effect, that
in raising prices and turning the course of exchanges
against us, gold will be exported instead of manufactures,
the effect of which would be that the want of a market
would be felt by the manufacturing districts, and conse-
quently the very circumstance you speak of would dimi
nish our foreign trade ?—Until the price of our English
manufactures fell again ; but I beg to observe that I think
it highly probable that the additional consumption of
English manufactures at home would more than make
atnends for any diminution of consumption of English ma-
nufactures abroad; and I think half the quantity of Eng-
lish manufactures abroad sold for fair prices, are bete,
than a double quantity sold at ruinous prices.
Do you mean to s iy that when prices at home rise, there
would be an increased consumption of those articles ?--
Unqaestionably.
Ts it not the case that when prices rise the consumption
of them is diminished ?—Certainly not ; when genera!
prices rise by an increase of money, I consider that the
consumption is unquestionably increased ; if general prices
rise by any famine, or any deficiency of production or n
supply, then the consumption diminishes ; but if gener-t!
prices rise by a general increase of money and credit, the
consumption increases.

Is it not the effect, that when prices rise in conse-
quence of an altered value of money, some period elaps,
before the price of labour is raised in proportion ?—I think
the price of labour, if the money is judiciously increased,
rises first.
You have stated that this rise of prices would contint
until, by the exchanges being turned against us, the cur
rency was reduced and the prices fell ; would not, then,
the effect of the measure you contemplate be to occasion
the very fluctuations in price which you deprecate?-1
should hope that when such a happy state of things ahoul•1
ever again arise in England, as to have a state of prices
which would preserve the reward of industry and the em-
ployment of labour, that is so great a blessing, the first
blessing of civilized life, that I should hope the Legisla-
ture would then pause before they suffered the course t:f
exchange to arrest that general happiness, and bring on a
general misery a fourth time.
Is it your meaning that when the exchanges fell, and
there was a demand for gold far export, you would have
the Legislature interfere in order to prevent the Bank of
England from making its payment ?—Unquestionably, and
my reason for wishing this state of credit to be restored
is, that I think we are now in a very miserable and dan •
gerous position ; but if ever we should get into a state re
prosperity and comfort again in this country, and should
find that prosperity slipping from under our feet by the
course of exchange, Government may then interfere by an
Order in Council with safety.
Does not the plan you suggest lead ultimately to unli-
tnited depreciation ?—I think not. A depreciatioa oi
money equivalent to 10s. to a bushel of wheat, is all I
should think necessary in times of plenty.
Then what you propose as the new standard is not gold,
but a definite quantity of wheat ?—lf we must have a gold
standard, which I think by no means suitable to our arti-
ficiAl state of society, I should think it wise and pruden.
to adopt such a standard as would preserve such a plen.
of money as would keep the bushel of wheat at 10s.
Is not that equivalent to making the standard of value
not gold, but wheat ?—lt certainly has a tendency to bring
in new principles in aid of the ancient standard, or-rather
it creates a new metallic standard of value.
Would not those principles entirely subvert the ancient
standard ?—I think they probably would.
Then is the reason why you are in favour of this alter-
ation
of the system, that you think it would render it ab-
solutely necessary, when this temporary rise of prices was
over, and the exchanges were turned against us, and a con-
sequent run took place upon the Bank, for the Legislature
to interfere in order to enforce a suspension of cash pay
vents?—That is one reason ; also I think we should
restore prosperity by these means, and give contentment
to the public mind ; and then, having done that, if this
contingency should arise, we should he in a condition
either to force the country again into a state of misery and
anarchy, or to make an Order in Council upon the Bank
of England, and cast anchor upon a new metallic standard,
or upon a limited circulation of Bank of England notes.
have no idea that we can possibly exist as we are now
going on.

Does not the power of consumption depend upon 6,
quantity of commodities produced ?--Yes ; I think thy•
quantity of consumption depends almost entirely upon the
process of production.
How would any alteration of the monetary system affect
the power of production ?-13y calling every labourer and
workman in the kingdom into full employment, by giving
him full wages, and by enabling him to consume masses of
all other commodities annually, equivalent to the muse,
which his own labour produces.

Will you have the goodness to state the way in which
you would arrive at that result?—l consider that con
sumption is solely occasioned by the process of production
—I consider consumption the sole effect of production.
which effectuates in its very process a consumption equiva-
lent to its- own products ; and if any difference occurs, the
surplus is national wealth.
Do you consider, then, that an increase in the circu-
lating medium of the country increases the power of pro-
duction ?—Undoubtedly, and of consumption equally.
Do you Mean permanently, or merely while "the nominal
amount of the prices is on the rise ?—Permanently ; just
the same for 100 years as for 1.
Will you explain bow ?---The prices of property being
raised by an increase of the circulation, a reward is 0,--
tamed in the production of every article of industry, anti
that reward calls all labour into full employment. Th.•
productive powers of the nation being thus put upon
full stretch, a greater• mass of annual wealth is thus pr..-
duced, and in the very act of the production of that addi-
tional mass of commodities and wealth the consumption td
such additional mass is itself effected, either in the
shape of wages, profits, or taxes.

. -
If depreciating the currency has the effect of raising
the prices, in what way can you at the same time in
crease the ability of the purchaser of those commodities ;
is it not finally an exchange of two articles, and with re-
spect to the standard, which gives nomin il value to it,
does it matter whether that be altered or not, seeing tha,
the two articles must be exchanged ?--Very seriously in
deed, because one is an exchange at prices which covet
the burdens of industry and insure its reward, and the
other is an exchange at prices which ruin each party.
If the wages of labourers be raised in this way, are n.t
the articles of consumption raised just in the same pro
portion ?—All the difference is, that in the one case the
labourers have high wages to purchase commodities at
high prices, in the other case they have low wages to pur.
chase commodities at low prices, with this difference, that
when low wages come, the taxes and the rents which
those workmen pay are not reduced in proportion, and tin- i!
labour is less in demand. I have one particular instance
in my eye at this moment ; I live in the midst of about
50,000 nailers, within 20 miles of Birmingham; their
wages have fallen since the war from 16s. to Bs. a-week

with the s.tme machinery and the same labour ; now the
rent of their cottage and workshop has not fallen a farthing;
it is 3s. per week now, as it was during the war ; there-
fore they now get ss. per week applicable to the purcha.e
of food and necessaries of life, where they formerly got
131. per week applicable to that purpose.
Probably the same state of things exists in all branches of
the iron trade 2—ln every branch of trade in Englind, Ibe
lieve.

Have there not been peculiar circumstances which have
affected the price of iron 2—Unquestionably not; the ge-
neral contraction of the currency is the sole cause of the
depreciation of the iron trade.

Was not the iron trade, in all its branches, for man)
years a very profitable trade?—Like all other trades in
England, it was so for two or three years together.
At that period were not large masses of capital invested
in iron-works in consequence ?—Not more than are being
invested now, for it is a very curious fact, that the yer)
distress of trade increases the productio❑ of some particu
lar trades in two ways; first, workmen work harder

consequence of the fill of their wages; and second, the
capitalists, in their struggles to avoid ruin, increase 661
productions. In the iron trade, for example, if they have
two furnaces, they will build another furnace, because the
loss upon two furnaces is 10s. per ton; but if they add a
'third furnace to it, the loss will, upon the whole, be re-

duced to sa. per too; and nothing is more common titan
for manufacturers to increase their establishments at the
very time they are on the road to ruin.
Has capital been invested in your neighbourhood lately ?
---Within the la-t five or six months, when the iron-mas-
ters and manufacturers generally are all going to ruin, and
are in a state that I do not like to describe, because we
all feel the painfulness of it, they are many of them still
enlarging their works, not to partake of profit, hut to
prolong the path to ruin, by diminishing their general
, charges.
In that case, of course, the depression of trade hears
much heavier upon those who are not in a condition so to
augment their works ?—Much heavier.
Must not that be one principal cause of the distress that
prevails with you now, and is it not very much confined
to that class of people ?—lt is not confined ; the distress
is like the atmosphere, amongst all working classes and
trading classes in England.
Do you mean without exception ?—I say without ex-
ception, although I know that extreme difficulty exists in
getting at this truth, for I myself feel great pain in stating
it ; but my opinion is, most decidedly, that all trade in
England has within the list seven years been carried on at
a positive loss, except where speculators have now and
then made a profit.
And you think that the effect of that distress has b-on
to increase production ?—ln some trades, unqoestionably.
How is that consistent with an answer you gave, th it
you thought that all consumption depended upon the in-
crease of production, and that the increase of production
would tend to the prosperity of the trade ?-1.1.e wages of
labour of the unhappy labourers are paid at half the price ;
the consequence of which is, that though they nook 1G
hours a day in some trades, they do not get so great a re-
ward in exchange as when they worked 12 hours a day.
Then you do not think that the increase of production
alone will tend to the prosperity of the country 2—Not un-
less it is at high prices ; it is the plenty of money that
makes prosperity.
Then a plenty of money, raising the profits of the people,
is what you think is to increase the prosperity of the
country ?—Unquestionably, I believe nothing else will do
so ; I mean by that, not a wild increase of money, but
such an increase of money as will be sufficient to raise the
prices of property and labour above the level of tt e fixed
charges which the law and the habits of the country Im-
pose upon production.
Is the production of the country greater or less than it
was seven years ago ?—ln some instances it is greater, hut
in others it is less. It is greater, by the inoretinate thiS
of some classes of men ; and less by the total want of em-
ployment, and the state of half employment, of other
classes of men.
In the aggregate, should you say that it is greater or
less ?—lt is less. The aggregate productions now I colt-
Bider are less than they have been for the last seven years.
Do you think the aggregate capital employed its pro-
duction is less than it was a few years ago ?—I think;
there is little or no capital employed in productive power
now; the capital is annihilated, considered as money.
Can there he production without capital employed in
production ?—The capital is annihilated ; it consists of
brick and mortar, machinery and engines, which are
almost worthless. I know one case of a cotton-mill,
which cost, seven years ago, 35,0001., that was sold by
auction a fortnight ago for 5,000/.
Is the food and raiment annihilated with which the la-
bourer is maintained ?—The capital I consider to be the
buildings, and machinery, and dead stock, and implements
and tools. I know a case, in Birmingham, of valualtle
tools and implements of a brass foundry, which coat savers
years ago 1,5601., which sold a few weeks ago for 1251.
Do you mean to say that the buildings and implementa
for producing the manufacture are not in existence ?
They are in existence, but they are worth almost nothing
at all.

Within what period do you consider that the capital
invested in manufactures has been annihilated ?—ln the
last 7 years.
Has there been no fresh capital invested in manufao-
tures ?—No, except in the manner 1 have described, in the
desperate struggles of men trying to escape from rein.
You consider, then, that no capitalists have invested
their capital in manufactories with a view to productive re-
turns within the last seven years ?—I am certai❑ of it-.
Is there any increase in the cotton manufacture within
the last seven years?—The destruction of one man makes
a rise of another. In some cases, in the cotton trade, int.
mense mills have been sold or let for a fifth of their vain,' ;
and eut of that destruction a new tradesman, coming in
unshackled, sometimes contrives to exit, but nut to make
a profit.

Does not a branch of manufacture sometimes establish
itself in a new part of the country, to the very serious in-
jury of property in- places where it formerly existed ?-1-
have known nothing of that kind within the last seven
years. I see every one shrinking from manufactures; every-
one that can draw out 1-10th part of his c tpital gradually
does it, but I have seen no determination of capital into
any trade within the last seven years; on the contrary, I
have made it te point, within the last seve❑ years, of ask-
ing the question, and I am sure I have asked it of a thou-
sand well-informed tradesmen, whether they knew of any
branch of industry existing in England, in which a pm.
dent man of industrious habits, with 10,0001. in his
pocket, and of competent knowledge, would be justified in
embarking his capital ; and I have never met with but one
single instance in which that question has been answered
in the affirmative, and that single instance was a Man-
chester gentleman ; and, when I came to cross-examine
him, he broke down.

You have stated that the fixed capital of the country is
absolutely annihilated ?—Yes, I consider it so, as con-
vertible into money.
You have stated also, that in many instances capital has
changed hands ?—Capital which was worth 100,000/. has
fallen in some cases down to 5,000/. ; that 5,000/. gets
into new hands, and enables the new man to carry on the
machinery and the trade till another failure drives him to
sell it for 2,0001. ; and so there seems no limit to the de-
pression in progress.

When do you consider that process commenced, of the
destruction of capital ?—ln the autumn of 1825. It
commenced in the first place in 1816, and then it was
changed in 1817 and ISIS ; then it commenced again ita
1819, and went on till 1822; and then it changed again,
and prosperity came till 1825.
Do you apprehend that since 1819 the wealth of Bir-
mingham has been diminished ?—Must seriously. I do
not believe the wealth of Birmingham is one-halt what it
was prior to 1816.

Do you think that the consumption of articles of luxury
in llirtningham has decreased very much during that
period ?—Terribly in the last one or two years, but per-
haps not in the last 12 years.
Supposing the case to he that the number of two-
wheeled carriages has doubled in amount since that time?
—Fashion and extravagance are eccentric things. The
roads have been wonderfully improved by macadamization,
and luxury increases beyond any thing, and education in-
creases beyond any thing, which leads to an increase of
expense; and I am sorry to say that at Birmingham, tor
the list 15 years, every man seems to me to have increased
his expenses at a time when I positively know his fortune
has been diminishing.
If, in other articles of expense there has been a great in-
crease,—in servants, for instance, and in four-wheeled c ir-

riages,—you do not think that proves any thing as to the
comfort and wealth of the inhabit ,nts of Birmintzham ?
Certainly not : there is no we filth and no comfort there,
and there is no safety amongst manutacturers (r mer-
chants; but they will, perhaps, not acknowledge this.
Do you call improved roads an increase to the capital of
the country?—Yes, hut I consider the improved roads have

grown out of the poverty of the labourers,. that the parishes
have generally been obliged to employ them in br.aklng

stones for the roads.

If there is this increase of luxury in Birmingham, and
this increase of expense, and at the same time the capital
and the means of the parties have diminished in the extra-
ordinary way you have stated, how have they been enabled
to carry o❑ this additional expense ?—A vast number of
them have been totally ruined.

If there has been this increased consumption during the
list 16 years, and during all that time the poverty or Bit-_
miugham has been increasing, must not the supply of
capital to meet that consumption have been provided, if
not by Birmingham, by some other parts of the country?
—Certainly not; it was an accumulation of the industry
of the war.

Do you anticipate that the consumption of articles of
luxury will go on increasing in the manner it has done for
the last 16 years, or that it will diminish ?—lt is irnpossi-
',le it can go on increasing; it must diminish most pain-
fully if the present state of the country continues.
Should you not think that if during a period of 16 years
the capital of Birmingham has been constantly diminish-
ing, the power of consumption must have been exhausted
at a much earlier period than it appears to have been doing,
if they were living upon the savings of the previous peri-
od ?—There is a vast influx of capital and population from
all parts of the country into the great towns, Birmingham
amongst the rest.

Then you do admit that some other parts of the country
have supplied capital?—Not for manufacturing purposes,
Out to build houses and reside there ; people come from the

distant vidageh country gentlemen and little capitalists,
who live upon their annuities and incomes, and they bui d
houses and rent houses about Birmingham.
Is not this a proof of the influx or the means wh,rewith