The Sun.
London, England, 1832-04-11 00:00:00

edered the more necessary, because persons certainly
get having opinions against Ministers but very much their
suaportere and admirers of Reform, had agitated the
public mind, and, contrary to all sense and reason, had
persuaded them, that although Ministers and his Majest)
could not abet these acts,ofviolettafts, .yet that they would
be viewed by- them th With .A 3 to the danger to be
anpreliended feoin political associations, it was known per-
fc tie We'll they were illegal, and he thought that
his Majesty's Ministers were noir 'aware of the necessity of
putting a stop to their proceedings. It was true that the
present plan
_had riot only received the sanction of the Com-
mons twice, but had been recommended by the speech from
'he Throne. With respect to that speech, rhos gh coining
from the Throne, there could be nos donist in the public
mind that it seas the speech rf Ministers; and although he
Was perfectly' prepared to do his iluty by giving his vote for
the rejection cr.'. this bill, he could not suppose the rejection
would lead, as wee stated ie that speech, to a final
settlement of that etwestion. Those who were in fa-
vour of moderate Reform, deeply deplored the agitation
of this sailestion ; but all concurred in one opinion, that that
question could not be settled but by a legislative enact-
ment. He should be exttearery happy if a legislative en-
actment by this Bill toteld by possibility settle this question
but the prseett will abrogated the Constitution, and all
preecriatti-ee rights, and, therefore, it was impossible the
Matter could rest there. He, however, agreed entirely
with the wish of the people that it Would he most
desirable to settle the question. Some measure, therefore,
should he brought forteard that would satisfy the country.
What that me:etire should be, it was not his duty, nor that
of their Lordships, to point out.— (Hear, hear.) On
the introduction of this Bin, however, hie Majesty's
Ministers had made a declaration that they would
stand or fall by it, or one founded upon the same prin.
ciple ; it' they still abided by that declaration, they must
be answerable for the consequences, in which not only
they, but the whole country will be into!rx?, He
trusted, however, if the present 1-Jil! Were rejected,
as he hoped it would he, that the delay afforded to them
!:y that rejection Wouhi -eheble them in another ses-
sion to bring ferweeeil eome other and more modified Inca-
eure ; or, it' following the example of others, considering
the extensive scheme they had now in contemplation—a
scheme that contemplated an entire division of the Consti-
tution—following the example of those Ministers who ad-
vocated the union of Scotland with this country, they were
to appoint a Commission to see what could he dune for
the interests of the three component peels of the British
empire, then he should th:nle some Bill founded on their
recommendation might be introduced. But if any measure
squally efficient, or as they would sly on that side of the
Houle teauey unjust, was ever again to be presented to
their Lordship, he trusted that they would, never allow
the rights of the meenest individual in the country, of whom
they were the guardians and protectors, to be thus arbi-
trarily torn away, for if they did, their Lordships might
depend upon it the next thing that would be infringes
upon would be their own rights--(Hear, hear)—and
they would then become the impitied victims of that sys-
tem of spoliation which they themselves had sanc-
tioned.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of HARROWBV and Lord Coeveetr. rose to-
gether, but the farmer gave way.
Lord COLVILLE said that be had appeared against
the Bill on the last occasion by giving a silent vote. He
gave that vote with regret, and he had now no alternative
but to orVer tie Bill his decided and open opposition.
ll^ had hoped that when another measure of the na-
ture brought forward on the former occasion, was again
in roduced into the House, it would have been such as he
could have voted in favour of, but this Bill was equally as
bad as the last. Admiring the talents of the Nolile Earl
at the bead of His Majesty's Government, he could not
but fed, indeed, very sorry, that he should have had to
differ from him in the conclusion come to on this im-
portant subject. As he did not b lieve it possible by any
amendment in Committee to make this measure a proper
one, he thought it better to pay in the first instance non-
content for the motion that it should be read a second time.
Consequently he felt bound to oppose the second
reading. The Noble Lord made some further observations,
which were inaudible from the low tone of voice in which
he spoke, and the confm•ion which prevailed during
his speech.
Lord HARROWBY rose to address the House under
peculiar disadvantages, but he would endeavour to occupy
no more time than he considered absolutely necessary. The
Noble Earl's speech at the head of his Majesty's Govern-
ment, upon the introduction of this Bill into the House,
could not but be fresh in the minds of their Lord-
ships. It was one of the finest specimens of oratory,
and contained some of the most powerful arguments
he had ever heard addressed to the House. In many
parts of the speech he-completely concurred ; from Aber
parts he entirely dissented ; but lie did not think himse

called upcn to reply at length on this occasion to those
parts in which he differed from the Noble Earl. He
thought that he had stated sufficient to have shown
the grounds on which his vote was to be different
now to what it had been before; but in the course
of this day, it appeared to him that bad not been
the case ; and if he were not to be called upon to
answer for being the supporter or the opposer of this mea-
sure, he felt he was now called upon to answer for himself.
flaying no claim, either from distinction or from talent, to
attract their Lordships' attention, he could only hope to
have any weight in what he stated with their Lordships, from
the belief they might entertain of the rectitude of hia inten-
tions, and that the inconsistency of which Noble Lords
had accused him, resolved itself into the same end by vary-
ing means according to the variation of circumstances. In
corning to the conclusion to which lie had done he was

not so blind as to be unaware of the obloquy to
which he was likely to subject himselc. No one could adopt
any decided line of politics without being open to obser-
vation ; oor could any one take a middle course without
laving himself open to attacks. On all sides had he been
the subject of attack ; and it was only before their Lordships,
he had to say a word or two in explanation, and per-
haps in defence. By some lie had been called a deserter;
by others he had been called a treacherous friend. Those
charges he could answer in a few words. In the first

place, before a man could he a deserter, he must
have been under some discipline.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
In the mat place, before an individual could be a treache-
rous friend, he must have professed friendship—neither
of which had been his case (Loud cheers.) What he had
stated last year had been particularly referred to by some
who had addressed the House. What he had said was not

that he was against any Reform Bill, but that he opposed the

second reading, because it would beimpossible in Committee
to make the 13dI what in his opinion it ought to be. He

had endeavoured to make the beat alterations in it he could,
and yet he bail failed to make it at all satisfactory
to his mind. But Noble Lords were to recollect that

what might appear to an individual to be imps-
hie at one time might not appear to be so at
another; or that that which appeared to present in-
superable difficulties to one might be made easy
to another.—(Cheers.) He would, however, c All on
any individual who would take that Bill fairly into
his hand to say, whether the view he (Lord H.) took of the
whole question as appeared from that speech, could be the

view of a man who waa de'ermined, under all cir-

curnstances, to resist the further consideration of

a 13111 for Reform.—(Loud and continued cheering.) All
he could say was, that if it did present that interpretation,
it was an intepretation entirely at variance with
the feeling of his mind at the moment, as many
Noble Lords surrounding bitn well knew—(Loud and
continued cheers)—and indeed, as a Noble Duke
near to him- bad just reminded him. An expression
he made- use of at the mornialt at which the
second reaAling of the last Bill was negatived, was, " We
have dove well this time, but it will not do for us to

repeat the satne thing again."—(Loud cheers.) It
%vas well known to many 'Noble Lords that he (Lord H.)
. had actually prepared a resolution, and was prepared
to move it, for the purpose of taking into considera-
tion next Session of Parliament a plan of Reform
fur correcting the abuses of the representation,
and that be was upon the very point of moving it, and
Was deterred only from doing so by feeling that
from neither side of the House was it likely to
receive support, and therefore he thought that the
moving of it, in such circumstances, would do more harm

than good.—(Much cheering.) What was his view
upon another point? Was it not that the peculiar
duty of the House was to give time for consideration,
and improvement?—(Hear, hear.) That time had Lot
been lost—it had produced an effect, though not exactly
the effect he had hoped for. It had not produced that degree
of re-action throughout the country which he believed the
expectation of, alone, had induced their Lordships to re-
ject the Bill.—(Cheers.) The Bill had been re-intro-
duced to their Lordships' House, and certainly with
some considerable alteration. (Hear.) The Noble Earl,
however, at the head o! his Majesty's Government had
not quite correctly represented him when he stated that
his objections to the measure had been removed. What
he had sail was, that they had been so far removed in
point of principle as to make it fit, in his mind, that he
should Tote for the passing of the Bill into Committee.
He bad never said that all his objections to the Bill were
removed, nor bad he ever thought so, but some of the
objections had been removed, and he thought it was abso-
lutely neetviary to have a system of Reform introduced.
It had shown them that there was still a considerable
and undiminished anxiety for a change in the repreeto.

tenon of Parliament—that theft Was in the minds of
those who before eoinced no anxiety for a change, an
,pinion that it was now necessary._ He did not show this
with a view to make such change, an would Ise productive
the dangers that ni:ett he apprehended by the
proposed Pill, but the question would be by
what means, seeing that the Bill had been twice
elopted by the House of Commons, they could choose
between conflicting dangers. He would refer them to the
petitions and addresses presented against the Bill, scarc.ly
one of which did not state that it was desirable to pre-
vent such :abuses as Slionid be found, on consideration,
to exist in the rekesentation of the country.
A Noble Duke tvoidd doubtless draw a different conclu-
sion from his respecting the Leicester petition,
in which it was prayed that the House would not
ilninstinitg uti:imf of the coonte _([jean)
ultimately pass any Bill which was dangerous to the
Co
He took the
, e
d
reading of thet to
ill. Butbe theto distinguish
se coti
ihnowfawveoruer they of
between the plans of those who were for a conside-
rable Beform and of those who were in favour of a
less extensive one, without going into Committee,
with a view to satisfy the hopes of one party-, and
to allay the feat! of the other ? He saw no ether
mode but by going into Committee.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
But tiny were met again by a declaration that if
they allowed the second reading, they adopted the
principle of the Bill.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now the
eenerti principle was, that there must be a reform
in the House of Commons. If the opinions of the
country were divided, as he had stated, that was, between
two different degrees of Reform, was there any man on
earth who could deny that principle 't
--(Loud cheers.)
Was any man prepared to say there should he no change?
—(Loud cheers.) Bat Ise tvonld take the prin-
ciple another way, and that was on the preamble,
Which stated that it was desirable to enfranchise large
towns, to disfranchise decayed boroughs, and to increase
the constituency. Why what plan of Reform was that?
What plan could there be but that? The Noble Duke
(Buckingham) would tell him that his plans did
not include disfranchisement or enfranchisement, so that it
appeared that they were coming to fractions after all.—
(Cheers and laughter.) When he came to a half dozen
boroughs in Cornwall, and found that the Noble Duke,
instead of allowing them to return ten Members, allowed
them to elect but two amongst them, surely without being
thin skinned he might call that disfranchisement
(Laughter and cheers.) It was not their game to
say they should exclude those boroughs merely because
they were rotten boroughs, but that through those
boroughs, by means of nomination, individuals got
into Parliament—perhaps the best persons to get
into Parliament—who could not get in by any other
means. He should like to know the difference be-
tween five boroughs and five different sets of consti-
tuency—and then he should like to know how any
person would dissect such a cluster ?—(Loud Cheers.)
He wished anxiously to appeal to the tone and temper of
the House—a tone and temper in which the Noble Earl
(Grey) had evidently participated in his opening speech at
the beginning of this discussion.—(Hear, hear.) He was
satisfied that the Noble Earl had felt the immense im-
portance of the question, and he agreed with that Noble
Earl in the necessity of bringing time question to a
speedy, and, as far as depended upon him, to a sa-
tisfactory conclusion.—(Hear, Lear, hear.) Instead
of the House being to'd that no amendments would
be received, which was stated on a former occasion,
and which was in his opinion the cause of the rejection of
the first measure, they were assured that every pro-
position would meet with a cool and calm consideration.
If they went into committee in teat tone and temper, much
difficulty would be saved. But they had been told
that they had to deal with clamour and intimidation.
There had been much of those last year, but their Lordships
had refused to yield to them, and they did right ; and why
should they imagine that clamour and intimida-
tion should have more effect upon them now than
they had six months ago ?—(Cheer:.) What they
should appeal to was to their convictions that they were
more likely to enjoy the effects of good order and good
Government, if they brought the question to a speedy
settlement, than if they attempted to postpone
it. He had stated on a former occasion that it was
not enough for a Government to be good in itself,
unless those who were capable of judging, were also of
opinion that it was so. And if erroneous opinions were
formed, it was the duty of the Legislature to correct
them. But he would ask what was the nature of the
danger with which they were threatened ? It was not civil
war, neither was it rebellion ; but it was that sort of
danger witich a Government in the performance of its
duty could effectually and immediately destroy. It was that
danger arising from an estranged feeling, the want of that
cordial ca-operation between tve people and its Govern-
ment, which alone could give effect to the stability of the
country. It was the want of that respect for Parliament
which proceeded from the rejection of a measure
which had been twice demanded from the throne
and twice demanded by the House of Commons. He
wished to consider the situation in which they were now
placed. In a word, they had now come to a state of
things in which the House of Commons stood denounced
by a large majority within itself as unfit to exercise the
functions for which it was constituted.—(Hear, hear.)
In this state of things they lad, therefore, but a choice of
evils. It was undoubtedly, a dangerous measure to adopt
the Bill ; but it was no less dangerous to reject it.—(Hear.)
He did not believe that the people would derive any solid
advantages, any real practical benefits from the reform of
the representation.—(Hear, hear.) In whatever way the
fate of the Bill should be decided, the House of Commons
had rendered itself less capable of discharging its duties,
than it would have been it no change had been proposed.
Whether it be now reformed, or remain constituted as it
was at present, its character had received a fatal blow on
the day on which that Bill was first passed by it; and that
blow sank incurehly deep when the Bill came twice re-
commended front the Throne.—( Hear.) There remained
for their Lordships, therefore, as he had already said,
only a chance of evils. If they did not allow
the Bill to go into Committee, to what other practicable
conclusion could they arrive? The Bill of Reform which
had been alluded to, and a notice of which had been given,
might be better or worse than the present one, and the
Noble Earl opposite (Grey) had expressed no opinion upon
it. He reminded the House, them efore, of the inutility
of rejecting the present Bill altogether. If they did so, the
Noble Earl might bring in another, and under circumstances
too, which might make the consideration of it perfectly
useless, and, therefore, he wished it to go into Committee.
But the Noble Earl might resign his situation, and a new
Government would then be appointed ; and he asked,
- - - -

would the country get a Reform by the change ?—(Loud
Cheers.) Let his Majesty rest his choice where he would,
but it would not stand with the Commons a week. This
Majesty might be advised to dissolve the Parliament, and

a new Parliament would be called during a state of public
excitement infinitely beyond what prevailed at the last
election—(Cheers)—made more violent by the strong
hopes that would be raised, and the people would he
equally anxious for Parliament ,ry Reform, not only
equally extensive with that which might now be granted,
hut probably more so.—(Cheers.) He asked, would not
Government be pledged to bring in a Reform Bill, and
who could then unite opinions to such a degree as to bring
forward the Bill and hope to receive such support as would
overpower the opposition of party ? That was a desperate
hope indeed. But the Bill now introduced, in order to have
any chance of being effectual, might be so amended, a, to be
perfectly operative. If he were still required to persevere in
his resistance, he should say he hardly knew in what sense
that resistance was to be understood. If he were to raise
an army, of what use would its operations he, if the right
wing were commanded by the High Bailiff of 0:61 Sarum
and the left by the M iyor of Gatton ?---(Lotul cheers and
Laughter.) He entreated their Lordships to allow the Bill
to go into Committee, and to bend their minds in that
Committee to effect the objects most beneficial to the
country, by making great amendments in the Bill, and to
make all such amendments as they might think
were reconcilable with the great principles of
its preamble. In so doing, he implored them
not to give too great a preponderance either to the
agricultural, manufacturing, or commercial interest.
They should take care that they did not add so much to
one interest, as to overeet the balance of all. fie agreed
in the opinion that those interests, however at different
times they might appear to differ with each other, were
essentially united, and he was firmly convinced that the
country would go on prosperously if each had its
proper share in the representation. He objected
moat particularly to that influence which was found in low
constituency, and which was acted on by every demo-
cratic agitator, whose object might be to get into the
House of Commons. The question with him was, whe-
ther they should legislate in favour of the Bill,
or of the interests of the people. All history and
all his experience hail shown him that when the tem-
porary will of the people had been acceded to, their in-
terests had been much neglected. He objected to make that
temporary will the dictator of the Parliament, and he en-
treated the House not to giant it. Feeling as ht, did that
it was painful to incur the disapprobation of per-
iwig possessing those political opinions which he
Advocated, he must state that be foresaw the
‘,onsequences, but he was determined to pursue
straight-forward course. His great consolation was,
'hat, in endeavouring to discharge his duty to the best

,f his ability, no pe'ascri private bias, had ever ope-
ated upon him.—(Cheers.) No consideration of persons
•houll ever induce him again to take any politleal
step, and therefore it was without hope and without
!ser that he had pursued his present course. He had
• little confidence in his own judgment—death had one by
ne deprived him of those whom he had loved; but weak
as his judgment was, he. felt himself bound to sacrifice the
applause, which it Was hot object to attain, but which
he had obtained for the part he took on a former occasion.
lie was prepared to incur the censure that might follow the
part he was now taking, conscious that he was pursuing a
eourse which was called for be circumstances—wishing
to retire into that private life "from which be had been
dragged by the present question, which had absorbed all his
attention, and of giving his opinion upon it; and if he found
he had been instrumental in bringing to a favourable
hoole that great question, he should consider himself
greatly overpaid. (The Noble Earl sat down amidst loud
cheers. )
The Duke of WELLINGTON—Your Lordships may
more easily conceive than I can ea-Trees, the shame and
p lin I feel in rising to addresayolir Lordahips. After having
been joined for several years in the Government with the
Noble Duke who has just addressed your Lordships,—
after having heard with much satisfaction, the speech
he last year addressed to your Lordships on an occasion si
rail it to the present,—after having then acted under the
Noble Lord's advice, in voting against the proposition
then before us, and after your Lordships experiencing the
same satisfaction with myself at hearing that speech, you
may conceive my pain and mortification at the' contrast
the speech just addressed to your Lordships presents
to that we then heard. lam oblted to draw a
comparison between these two speeches, in order to
prevent, if possible, the mischiefs which, in my opinion,
may result from the House feeling the same confidence
in the Noble Earl this year, as it did when be addressed
your Lordships last year. .51y Lords, lam sure that my
Noble Friend will not feel that I am treating him
with personal disrespect in adverting to the important
topics of that speech. He commenced on that occasion
by stating that the question was, whether he would read the
Bill then before you a second time, that is to say, whe•
ther you would vote in approval of its principle.
Upon that occasion my Noble Friend addressed to you
these words : The principle and object of this
Bill are to make the Constitution more democra-
tic. Look at the consequences when that assembly,
which has already become the chief governing
power of the State pretends not only to be the governing
power, but the Government itself, and suffers itself to
be guided by other assemblies of other descriptions, such
as had been recently formed in the North, and espe-
cially at Birmingham ; what I ask is the condition
of a Government that suffers such proceedings ?
What can we expect from a Legislative Assembly so con-
stituted and directed ?" :lly Noble Friend, after ad-
dressing you in a speech to which we all listened
with great delight for two hours, elute at last
to this conclusion. "We are told that we have no option
but to take the Bill as it is—to adopt at once the propo-
sition which is to consign us and our posterity to a new form
of Government which no man has ever ventured to tell
us will be practicable, and which, if practicable, would,
in my opinion, be mischievous." Such was the Noble
E.rl's opinion last year upon the Bill then before us. Your
Lordships have just heard his opinion upon a Bill which
the Noble Earl opposite has told us is as efficient a Bill as
that of • the last year, which we all know to be
the same Bill, and which my Noble Friend has himself
said this night he does not think can produce any
of the beneficial effects contemplat, d. Now, what are
the grounds upon which my Noble Friend has changed
his opinion ? The first ground is, that this Bill has
come front the House of Commons a second time passed by
a large majority. Now, I beg your Lordships to recol-
lect what was stated, I believe, by the Noble Earl himself,
but certainly by the Noble Baron (Wharucliffe) sitting
at the table, with respect to the construction of
the present House of Commons. The Noble Baron, in
the speech he delivered to the House in March, 1831, pre-
vious to the last general election, foretold to the Govern-
ment the consequence of having a general election under
such circumstances, stating in the strongest terms that
the effect would be to return a number of delegates as
Members of Parliament, and to place the House of Lords in
the situation in which it stood last year, and in which it
now stands. When the event thus prophesied has oc-
curred, the natural thing is to call upon Ministers to place
things in the same situation they were before, to address
his Majesty to remove those Ministers from his
counci's, or otherwise give this country and the House an
opportunity of having a fair discussion, of having a House
of Commons which was not a meeting of delegates. That
such is the case now, there can be no doubt, and as
you have had two decisions upon this Bill, so you may
have ten ; hut the question is, whether the House can
sanction by its vote principles which it conceives
arc inconsistent with the interests of the country, •
because the House of Commons is in the state it now is—a
state which certainly presents us with a difficulty,
hut I trust only a temporary difficulty, which might be
removed. The next 'point dwelt upon by the Noble Earl
was the opinion of the country. Now, my Lords, there
can be no doubt whatever that, in 18'29 and the com

mencement of 1830, there was no opinion in the country
in favour of Parliamentary Reform.—(Laughter and cheers.)
I may advert to it now as a matter of history, and, I
say, it wr.s admitted in the ether House at the time
that aut•h was the fact. The French revolution and the
insurrection in Belgium occurring at the commencement of
the elections of 1830, and creating considerable excitement,
no doubt influenced the opinion of the succeeding Raba-
fluent to a considerable extent, and that Parliament wee

prepared to pass a moderate Bill of Reform, and even
:greed to the first Bill by a majority of one.
But the Noble Lords opposite, not content with that,
dissolved Parliament, and assembled again under circum-
stances of excitement, such as never before existed.—
(Loud cries of Heir,) That excitement influenced the
succeeding elections, and has continued to a very con-
siderable degree from that day to this. But how is it now
kept up? By a strong opinion that it is the
wish of the King that Parliament should be reformed in
the manner set forth in this Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Now
for toy own part I do not believe one word of any such
thing.—(A laugh.) My opinion is, that the King follows
the advice of his servants, but the use which has been
made of his name will render it very difficult for us to do
otherwise than to agree to same Reform in Parliament.
But I say it is a mistake to suppose that the King
has an interest in this question ; and as soon as the
country is undeceived in that respect, its opinion will be-
ceme right on this subject. I will go farther, and say
that lam thoroughly convinced, that, notwithstanding
the excitement of the last year, notwithstanding the pre-
sent date of the House of Commons, I entertain no
doubt that if the King's mind were altered, the
Noble Earl opposite would not be able to pass the Bill.
I hope your Lordships will attend to this fact, in con-
sidering all these reports respecting the prevailing senti-
ment in England on the subject of this Bill. The opinion
of the gentlemen of the country in general—of the landed
property in general—of property in general—and of the
learning of the country, is against the Bill, which is
supported on the other hand, first by the Noble Lords op-
posite, and then by their adherents in the country, who
are not very numerous, by nearly all the Dissenters, and
all those persons who have hopes of obtaining votes and
distinctions, if it pass into a law. I speak from a
knowledge of many of the southern counties of Eng-
land, and from the reports as to the other parts of the
country ; the sentiments in fact of the real English gentle-
man—of the great proportion of the yeomanry and middle
_ _

of those even of London, who are apprehensive of

•
the Bill.—(Hear.) I state what I firmly believe to be
the opinion of the country. But the Noble Lords op-
posite will say that they hear nothing of this at public
meetings--this is very true, because the gentlemen of
the country believed, if they went to public
meetings and the mob were to attack them, they would be
protected in committing outrage. There were anomalies
in this Bill without number, and I have this morning
received a note showing the anomalous results from a

paper which has been produced in the House of Coin.
mons, even since the Bill had been sent up to that House.

I show this for the purpose of convincing your
Lordships that little can be done in Committee
to enable us sufficiently to amend this Bill. The Noble
Duke then read a long extract from Parliamentary Papers
to show that the schedules of the Bill had not been im-
partially drawn up. By Parliamentary Paper 232, being
an abstract of the practical operation of the Bill, accord-
ing to the new limits given to the several boroughs, it ap-
peared that a borough (Clitheror) was partially disfran-
chised in schedule B which had a greater population than
60 which were untouched ; another, Shaftesbury, than
; another, Wilton, than 16 ; and 10 on gradation.—
Clitbero has more houses than 57 untouched boroughs;
Wilton than 56 ; Shaftesbury than 54; and so on as to
taxes.
- Christchurch, which was in schedule B, paid
more than 45 places not in the schedule, wherein no less
than 9 were new-made boroughs; Wilton more than 39,
Droitwich and Wallingford mure than 33, and so on.—
The reason that the difference in this class was not so great
as in the population and houses was, that the arbitrary
‘dditions made to the boroughs were mostly of poor and
•catterea districts, which did not add to the taxation in
the same proportion. But the most important view of
all wai the number of 101, hooves the amount of the fu-

-

tare constituency. Will it be credited that Hythe, par-
tially disfranchised, will have more electors than 55 places
not in schedule B, of which three are new creations ;
Morpeth than 37; Dartmouth than 34; Wallingford than
32, and so on ? And Knaresborough and Tavistock are
kept untouched, while seven or eight others, having e
greater constituency, are placed in schedule B. Compare
Christchurch and Tavistock as an example :
Tavistock. Christchurch. Difference.
Population 6,087
Houses
10/. ditto
Taxes
10 boroughs in schedule B, 10 boroughs which arc to
sending 10 Members. send 20 Members.
10/. Ifouses.... 4,084 2,9.44
Population...... 71,196 42,f6t1
Which is nearly four to one in favour of the one cn't
against the other. This paper also furnishes a compari-
son between Christchurch, which is in schedule B, and
Tavistock, which is untouched.—(Cheers.) In Tavi.
stock there are only 5,602 inhabitants, and in Christ.
church (3,483 inhabitatite; In Tavistock there are only
380 ten-pound houses, and in Christchurch -100 ; while
Tavistock pays i❑ taxes 1,2831., and Christchurch 2,6001.
—(Cheers.) Such was the result of this paper, which
had been before the House of Commons since the Bill
had been sent up to that House. It may be said this
paper was an argument for going into Committee
on the Bill. I will remind Noble Lords, how-
ever, of whet ryas said by a Noble Lord op-
posite last year,—'' I believe that every body who
has had Parliamentary experience, knows that when
a Bill brought in by Government is read a second time, it
is a matter of great difficulty to make any alteration in
Committee."—(Hear, hear.) There is no instance of
making extensive alterations in a Bill in C, mmittee in
that House. Of this, two instances have lately been
furnished. I will only particularly allude to an in-
stance which has occurred only a few days since, and
which will be in the recollection of the Noble Lord, the
Secretary for the Horne Department, as well as many of your
Lordships. It will be vain to attempt to make any altera-
tion in this Bill in the Committee. There is another view
of the case which ought to he taken. The Noble Earl in a
former debate said, that no alterations should take place
in the Committee. There is no doubt that the Noble
Earl and the Noble Lord (1-larrowby and Wharncliffe)
will find themselves met with great politeness in the
Committee, but no alteration whatever, not even the smal-
lest, will be made to them. If report speaks true,
the Noble Earl has been dying of compromise for the
last six months, and therefore how can they be able to
give b ins and those who thought with him, such reasons
as should make them also be friends to a compromise, they
appearing to have got no farther now than they had done at
first? Therefore, those who voted with Noble Lords last
year, must understand that they will have no more chance
of a compromise than they had last year, and if they
should agree to the second reading of the Bill, they must
take it as it is. The Government were responsible for
the Bill—they were responsible for the election of the
present House of Commons—they were responeible for the
I -excitement which had taken place at such elections—end
they were responsible for the consequences which
would follow the fate of the Bill. lie must beg to
impress upon those Noble Lords who formerly voted
for the rejection of the Bill, and who now intended to vote
for the second reading, that by so doing they shared the
responsibility with the Government. His objections to the
Bill always had been that it went totally to overturn the
representation as it at present stood. The disfranchise-
ment of fifty-six boroughs was a total revolution.
But the measure, so far as its connexions
went, would have more of a revolutionary cha-
racter as applied to Scotland. What lie had always
said was, that this Bill had a revolutionary character. He
must beg to say, and to impress upon Noble Lords, thit
revolution might he raised by the law as well as against
it. Here we had the King and the Government leagued
with those who were generally the beginners of revolu-
tions. There was another serious objection to the
Bill, which was, that it went to establish a uni‘orin
right of voting throughout all corporations in the country.
The Noble Earl said that this W 414 a merit of the mea-
sure; but did not the Noble Earl hear of unions carrying
on correspondence with all parts on political subjects?
And when we came to the large towns, such uniform
right of voting amounted to universal suffrage ; it, in fact,
extended the right of voting to lodgers of 3s. 10d. a
week, or rather, he should say, to a man who paid 711. a
night for his bed, and who the very next moment after
such payment had not a farthing in the world.—(Hear.)
He begged their Lordships to observe what would be the
consequences of such a system in the House of Com-
mons, anti the little chance there was of carrying on a
Government through the means of such an assembly.
By the constitution of the country, as it at present existed,
every member of the House of Coininons, when he
came there, was a Member for all parts of England
and not a member for that particular town which sent
him ; but that would not he case, if the present
Bill should pass. What might be expected then ?
Why, every representative would receive instructions from
his constituents, and act under them instead of being a
Member for the common good. lie (the Noble Duke)
recollected a letter which had been written by a
gentleman in the course of last autumn to some of his con.

constituents in that neighbourhood, in which he requested
not only that his constituents would direct the course their
representatives should adopt, but there ought to he unions
compo.ed of all classes, first for the protection of persons
and property, and secondly, to express the opinions of their
parish on any public measures, in case Ministers or the
House of Commons were lukewarm in the cause of the

people: This was whit was recommended in order t insure

_ .
the adoption of the system proposed by that Bill. He
begged their Lordships for a moment to compare the opera-
tion of this system with that which had been so long in
existence. They had now Y representation consisting of
boroughs, and also of counties, which was conducted by the
freeholders, and they represented not only the lower hat the
middling and higher orders of society. The represnta-
tives of tke greet towns represented the lower and middle
classes of society. The representatives of what
were called the potwallopping and scat and lot boroughs,
represented the lowest orders of the people, and
what e ere called close boroughs represented all

el isses and all descriptions in the House of Commons.

Now what was going to be done by the present Bill ? Why
to establish a system by which all interests would be con-

filed to one Class, which had no other desire thin to

support democracy. By the present system, however, all

classes were represented, and the business of the nation was
carried on properly. He would now beg their Lordships
to look a little to the chrnges that had taken plate
in the course of the last few years in the Govern-
ment of the country, and tee what _ improvements

had been made in a popular shape. The interest of the
Crown, since the period of the Revolution, had been

decreasing in Parliament.

Since the late war the

influence of the Crown had been m aerially diminished
by force of the regulations of the Board of Customs,
which had taken the influence in appointments entirely out
of its hands and placed it in those of others. The influ-
ence of the Crown ever all its offices had been greaey dimi-
nished, probably more than it ought to be, for the purpose
of the Government of the country. No officer bad been
kept up for the purposes of Government. None
had been kept up except for the purposes of business.
There had been also another most remarkable alteration
made with respect to Parliament within the last four years.
In the year 1828 the Test Act was repealed, and the
repeal of that Act immediately brought into operation
a large body of persons who would naturally affect elec-
tions. In 1829 the Catholic Relief Bill passed, which
made another material alteration in Parliament. No

time had been given to see how these measures would work,
and it appeared to him that it was right to try the effect
of those measures before that House took so great a step
as that which was proposed by the present Bill.
There could be no doubt that those measures would have
a considerable effect on elections, and particularly on any
measure of Parliamentary Reform. He, therefore,
thought their Lordships ought to pause, for the
purpo,e of seeing how that system would work
before they gave sanction to so sweeping is measure as
the present. There could be no doubt there was a general
desire in the country—he did not mean to deny it,
it was stated in all the addressed .and petitions (Hear;)
that some Reform should be taken into consideration; but
he wanted to know if that was the case, and if the facts
.he had stated were true, which he believed no man could
deny, whether it was not the duty of Parliament

to proceed with caution in making those aite-ations, and
whether it ought not to consider maturely every step before
it made it. It was not at all improbable but that in process
of time they might an ive even at the measure the Noble
Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government had recom-
mended, but that must be by process of time, and after
maturely considering every step towards the adoption of
such a measure, if it was meant to preserve the system of
Government as it at present existed. But they. had
been told that it was absolutely ❑ecessary to'
this important question to an early conclusion,
first, because it was wished by the people, and secondly,
that by not putting a decision on the subject, great in-
convenience was experienced to commerce. He wished that
those who said that those innonveniences were felt, would
:onsider a little whether those arose in consequence_• of the

Inspect of ti.e pawing of the B 11—( Hear)—or of the
~!ar of losing it.—(llear.) Ile believed that as 50-011 i/6
he present Bill was proposed, awl as SOOll as the

excitement which it had occasioned, appeared in the pub-
lic mind, that all expenditure of every description ceased ;
that men ceased to lay out their money in great enterpri-
eesit end those who hail expended the full amount of their
incomes, begen to consider e better it was not necessary to
erovide for a 'period Of trouble and difficulty. These were,
in his mind, the true causes of the want of commerce and
dietress under which the country laboured. If their Lord-
ships looked at their neighbours, they would see that
ite same causes produced the same effecte therea.
These causes had proceeded further with them than with
us, because they had existed for a longer period. Such a
sysoesn had been carried to its full extent with them, as it
would be with this country, if the present Bill passed.
He complained of the system which would be introduced
by the Bill, because it fell on the poorest classes of the
community. The expenditure of the rich gave comfort and
ease to the middling classes, and subsistence to the poor.
And it was in consequence of that subsist nee and
comfort that difficulties had arisen. The Noble Viscount
who had addressed the House on this subject, admitted
he did not expect the present measure would relieve the
distresses of the country. In his (the Duke of Welling-
ton's) opinion, it would not only not relieve, but it
would aggravate them. With respect to cheap
Governin nts he would wish to refer their Lordships to
what had passed in Fr ince within the list two years.
If (continued the ?'.able ljuke) your tord4iips will take the
trouble of examining into what has passed within the last
two years in France, you will see that the French expen-
diture has been increased in that time fifty millions ster-
ling beyond the usual expenditure. You will see that its
()retina; y Budget, notwithetandine the study that has been
applied to be as saving as possible, exceeds the Budget of
the former reigns—of the extravagant reign of the Mir-
bone—by the amount of ten millions sterling; and besides
this, there is the extraordinary expenditure of fifty mil.
lions in two years.—(Elear, hear.) Look at that, my
Lords, as a system of cheap Government—(Hear, hear)--
and you will see that it is quite impossible to agree with
the senseless assertions made on th it subject. Now let
us see whether in this country this Bill, supposing it to
be passed, is likely to make the Government cheaper or
better than it is now. Let us ask ourselves whether the
Civil Government will have mere pevee: to govern the
country then it now possesses ; whether it is possible that
the Government can be carried on with a smaller propor-
tion of the army. I beg yottr Lordshipe to look at the
transactions that have taken place at Paris in the course of
the last two years, and see whether that has been the case.
I AM sure you cannot think so, when you see that while
Louis XVIII. anti Charles N., were on the Throne,
they were enabled to maintain the peace of Paris
with a genarmerie of from 500 to 1,000 men : but
that since the Revolution of July, the Government has
not had has than 60,000 men once a month put into
requisition to maintain the peace of the city.—(Hear,
h ear. ) Why, with a Guyer nment founded as this
must be, on the sovereignty of the people—a Government
such as we must have, it we adopt this Bill—will any man
tell me that the country under such a Government will
be able to hive its peace preserved with a small body of
tni itaiy? The disasters that occurred at Bristol were put
down, my Lords, by ninety men, as soon as an oMcer was
found who would employ the force incrusted to him.
Were the events at Lyocs as speedily and easily quelled ?
I know, lily Lords, that those events were of a larger
nature, but they required not less than 40 000 of the best
troops in France, headed by a most able General, the
Alinister at War, aed a Prince of the Blood, to put them
down. Consider well, my Lords, first, the causes of this
difference ; and next see whether it is possible for you to
expect that the civil Government can be carried on as
hitherto, wider a Government such ae you will establish if
you pass this Bill.—(Hear, hear.) I beg pardon of your
Lordships for having detained you so long—(Hear, hear)--
hut I considered it my duty to endeavour to convince
you that nay Noble Friend is in error in the course
lie has taken—that that course is entirely inconsistent
with the well-founded opinion, in which we all agree, that
there is no reason we should follow the course he re-
commends, and that, if you do follow it, you will
involve yourselves in all the responsibility which they have
undertaken ; and that the only safe course for you to pure
sue, both for the Government and the country, is to reject
the second reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
After the Duke of Wellington had sat down, lie rose again
to say he had omitted one point which related to the Bill
proposed by his Noble Friend the Noble Duke behind
Whenever his Noble Friend should bring forward that Bill
he would give it all his consideration, with a view to see
whether it could safely be passed into a law. It was
impossible for him to pass an opinion our a Bill not yet be-
fore the House ; but as for as he could judge of it, from
the observations of his Noble Friend, it was a measure
rounded on an entirely different principle from the present.
The Earl of HADDINGTON, in explanation, said,
that when he used the word "compromise" in his speech
last night, lie had, perhaps, employed a word that was
not exactly the best chosen. What he meant to say was,
to express a hope that the Noble Duke who had just
spoken, and the Noble Earl at the head of the Govern-
ment, would go into the Committee in a spirit of concilia-
tion and concessinn. As to what the Noble Dike imagined
th It he had sotnething to do with negotiations which the
Noble Duke supposed to have been going on for the last
three months out of that House, be could assure the No-
ble Duke that if there had been such negotiations, he had
had nothing to do with them.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord GRANTHAM should not detain the House more
tan a few moments ; but the question now before them
was one of such importance, as to make him feel that it
was his duty to break through the silence he had before
observed on the question, and not to give a silent vote on
this occasion. He hail applied his mind with painful
anxiety to the consideration of the subject—he was most
anxious to alter, if he could, the vote he had given six
mouths ago; however, he could not. He had then voted
against the Bill, and he should be compelled to repeat
that vote on the present occasion. It was a painful conei-
deretion for him to be oidieed to do so, but he could not
avoid it. He had then been anxious to see if he could
concur with the reasons for sending the Bill into a corn-
rnitte ; he was equally anxious upon that subject now.
The reason that induced him to say he could not consent
to send the Bill into Committee, was because he thought
the chance of amending it there was hopeless. It was
true that the Noble Earl at the head Of the Go-
vernment had told them th It any suggestion from that side
of the House would not be thrown away ; but it was ob-
servable, that both upon last night, and upon the night on
which the Noble Earl had introduced the Bill to
their notice, he made the statement in a manner so guarded,
that he candidly confessed he had not much expec-
tation of the good that would come from the Com-
mittee. From the beginning of the agitation of
the question he did not think it had been quite treated
with the openness and candour it deserved. It was a
question of great importance—it involved the interests of
every class of the community, and yet it had been pushed
on with a degree of violence such as had never before been
shown with regard to any other great public question.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) Questions of interest had heretofore
been laid before Parliament, they had received discussion,
and the decision of Parliament—they were important
questions—such es the Slave question and the Catholic
question--and Parliament had decided on -them; but
never before had Parliament been branded with merely ut-
tering the whisper of a faction.—(Hear, bear, bear.)
The conduct that had been observed towards one individual
who was against this measure was such as to be disgrace-
ful to the country to which he belonged. There was a
system of intimidation of a different description pursued
..ow to , what had before been pursued en the
former occasion ; but it was quite as dangerous. They
had then been threatened by a cowardly anony-
mous miscreant, with brickbats and bludgeons, with
cirei.tet.loar:eea.besanartttitiltheo'll e:rnaett.l"'' on
He saw in this measure so many dangers
which it was thought that they would be frightened ;
s inoont
of fromfti
future
but the threats took no effect. The threats now
resorted to were more formidable still—they had induced
his
for"change
severea nt
thoserle.ohtee, of brickbats.
intTitnoidhaitmiosnelffr,oniintaliiveidleneaglilny:
haniNnutistieg.)::(bigfl consequences
thee i
creispebnr
eedpmesarentsto'nscfateha'ni:mtmplblaour itirt:teooe ofur
bout.
.o
f personal indifference. He
anything to do with elections, and he had
earth who looked up to him for a seat
thein o
many risks and lizards attending
thfee o adoption:
te
easure—that coupled with what
b•
--'A
alluded rajto, he felt, as a man of honour and
iu the x
of bis public duty, he must vote against it.
}d execution
s,
already
dityouit of
f i
thisn
Lord WHARNCLIFFE began in a tone of voice in
itself difficult to catch at such a distance, but which was
quite inaudible in consequence of the noise made by some
strangers who had seated themselves in the reporters' gal-
lery and whom no consideration could induce to he silent.
His Lordship said that the question on which they were
'hen deliberating was not with respect to the Bill itself,
but with respect to the mode iu which they were about to
treat it. He asserted that it must he read a second time,
Coles they had made up their minds to encounter greater
!difficulties than they had encountered before—(Hear)—and
do belief was, that, on the contrary, if they read the Bill
e second time—if they only gave it their consideration,
they would enable themselves, if not to get rid of it alto-
eether, at heist to introduce into it many changes that
hey might think deeirahle.—( Hear.) The Notile Duke,
what he had stated, began with au atteck on the
(Lord Wharncliffe),
Treble Earl (Haddington) and him