The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-26 00:00:00

we pay £958,000, while there is a RUM of only £30,560 ex-
pended by them ; but then it must be remembered that,
being garrisons, it is of the utmost importance for our in-
terests that their defence should be adequately provided for.
On the West Indies we lay out £432,000, while the colonists
themselves pay not more than £6,000. In our colonies in
the East, Mauritius, and Hong Kong, our expenditure for
defensive purposes is £289,000, while they expend £91,000.
'I he Cape of Good Hopa costs us £635,000, while a sum of
£29,000 is all that the colonists contribute. The last-men-
tioned is, I must say, one of the strongest instances of that
disproportion to which I have referred. My right hon.
friend, in alluding to the Cape of Good Hope, spoke ofi the
German Legion which was sent out there, and of which he
says he has for a long time heard nothing. lam sorry to
have to state that I cannot say as much, for the War
Department has of late had repeated solicitations ad-
dressed to it in connexion with that body. I hold in my
hand a statement which I have submitted to the Trea-
sury, and which involves a claim for a large sum of money,
inasmuch as Sir G. Grey has kept the troops of the Ger-
man - Legion in pay from the time of their arrival in
the Cape of Good Hope until the present day. A consi-
derable portion of those troops, it is true, volunteered to
go to India, but a large number of them was left behind,
and the expense of the maintenance of such a body is very
great. Without, however, going further into this point, I
shall state to the right hon. gentleman the course we have
taken. It is quite true that if there were only one party to
the bargain we by an Imperial Act could easily overrule the
intentions and feelings of the colonists by laying down
some law which would settle once for all the proportions
upon which this expenditure for military purposes should
be based. But this must be made matter of negotiation
between the several colonies. (Hear.) They have the
great advantage of distance and the great advantage of pas-
sive resistance, and, therefore, I do not feel very sanguine
of an early and effective inroad upon the system which now
exists. But it ought, nevertheless, not to be neglected, and
at the present moment there is a committee sitting upon the
subject, consisting of Mr. G. A. Hamilton (Treasury), Mr.
Godly, who is well known to my hon. friend, and Mr. T.
F. Elliot (Celonial. office). The instructions which have been
given to those gentlemen are—to ascertain the gross ex-
penses of military defences for the five years 1853-57 inclu-
sive ; the proportion borne by colonial governments ; in
what colonies they are necessary for imperial or colonial
purposes or both ; to lay down the principle upon which the
expenses ought to be ;apportioned; and to state the best
mode of carrying that object into effect. As I have before
said, the government are most anxious to pursue this course.
The Duke of Newcastle enters warmly into the matter; but
I repeat, that owing to the distance and the great power of
resistance, I am not sanguine as to an early or uniform set-
tlement, although I am sure every exertion will be made to
place the matter upon a more satisfactory footing than at
present. (Hear.) With respect to the questions raised by
my hon. and gallant friend and by the hon. member for
Poole, let me say, with regard to the last, that the subject
of the defence in case of attack of the coast of England has
not escaped the notice of the Government. My predecessor
appointed committees of officers to make a minute exami-
nation of the whole coast, and those Engineer officers pre-
pared plans with great accuracy and great skill. We thought
it most important that those officers should be made tho-
roughly familiar with the topographical and physical na-
ture of the coast of Great Britain, but I am afraid it is
impossible to attempt to fortify as against an enemy
every portion of the whole coast. (Hear, hear.)
You might by attempting it fritter away an enormous sum
of money. (Hear, hear.) To place batteries and guns, with
no men to serve the guns, would place the country in a
worse position than if you did nothing at all. (Hear, hear.)
I only hope that the house and every individual member
will recollect that it is impossible the whole of the coast can
be put in a state of fortification, and that the attention of
the Government must, in the first instance at any rate, be
turned to the defence of those great ports and arsenals in
which we have all our materials of war, in which we have
the means of reproducing materials of war, and which, I
am sorry to say, are not in that forward state of defence at
the present moment which I could wish. (Hear, hear.) The
gallant officer proposes a resolution :
" That, in the opinion of this house, taking into consider-
ation the relations existing between some of the great mili-
• tar' Powers of the Continent, it is advisable that a com-
mission be appointed, consisting of civilians and military
and naval officers, to inquire into and collect information
concerning the present condition of our national defences;
to ascertain what improvements may bemade therein in or-
der to insure the utmost efficiency combined with eccnomy;
and to report theresn to her Majesty's Government."
I can offer the gallant officer the substance of his motion,
but not the motion itself. If you pass this resolution, in the
first place there is an end of supply, and then, again, I
rather object to the words which point to the relations ex-
isting between some of the great military Powers of the
Continent. (Hear.) From the first moment when I came
into office I turned my attention to the subject, which is one
of considerable anxiety to the Government, and I mentioned
the decision during the discussion on the Estimates, that it
appeared that the system by which wo were proceeding with
certain works was a very doubtful policy, as for any effectual
purpose of defence they ought to be finished as rapidly as
possible. (Hear, hear.) Either the gallant 'officer or the
hon. member said he thought :the War Department had not
paid attention to the subject, and had not confidence in the
scientific advice which they had at their command. Now,
I find that these plans of defence of the arsenals and dock-
yards show an 'amount of care, minuteness, and skill which
does great credit to the Engineer officers, and it is
not that the Government have the slightes distrust in
the skill and ability of those officers that they have
come to the conclusion to appoint a mixed commission of ci-
vilians and naval and military officers—not too large a num-
ber, but a few whose names will carry weight with the
public—to whom we submit the plans which we `have for
these fortifications, asking them to reconsider them, and
give us advice as to which should be first proceeded with,
and to suggest any alterations or extensions which they
may think necessary, but not, of couase, to start a fresh
'theory, and render useless the expenditure of public money
already incurred. (Hear.) I believe that it is necessary,
and it is necessary for this reason—that if this house is to
be called upon to vote very large sums, or if the Govern-
ment think fit to apply very large sums voted by the house,
it is essential that public confidence should be obtained, and
that the country should be perfectly satisfied that the
works on which the expenditure is to be made have been
perfectly well considered, and will be adequate as far as
possible for the purpose intended. (Hear, hear.) It is
therefore the intention of the Government to appoint a
commission such as that described by the gallant officer. I
trust that in a few days, when the names come out, they
will be deemed guarantees to the public that the Govern.
ment is honestly pledged to getting the best advice in their
power as to the plans upon which great works are to be
carried on at a more rapid pace than has hitherto been the
case, so that when completed the Country may feel confi-
dence that our arsenals, which contain the means of repro -
duction oS great maritime and military defences, are in such
a state that we need be under no alarm of a successful
attack by any enemy under any circumstances whatever.
(Cheers.)
Mr. HORSMAN, Lord LOVAINE, and Mr. HALIBURTON
rose together, but upon the call of " new member," the two
first-named members yielded precedence.

Mr. HALIBURTON said he had to thank the Secretary
for War for the manner in which he had treated the motion
of the hon. gentleman below him. He was not aware when
he read the notice what was the particular purport of the
motion, on account of the manner in which it was worded,
and he confessed that he listened to the observations of the
hon. gentleman with a great deal of anxiety as to whether
he understood it rightly, and whether the hon. gentleman
would be misunderstood on the other side of the water.
The hon. gentleman, as far as he could gather from his
observations, appeared to question the expediency of having
troops in British North America. He hoped he might be
permitted to make a few remarks upon that subject, because
the whole of his life had been spent there. (Cheers.) It
was said that the colonists ought to defend themselves. Be
it so. It was not the first time they had done it, and they
were able to do it again. (Cheers.) But at the same time
there was a reciprocal duty as well as a mutual interest—
on the one part loyal and obedient attachment to this
country, and on the other protection. (Hear, hear.) It
was said that the militia ought to be organised. He was
proud to say that it had been organised, and in the war of
1812 with the United States, with very trifling assistance
from this country, for her troops were wanted elsewhere,
the militia of Canada turned out, and the whole force of
the United States was not sufficient to make any impressierp
upon them. (Cheers.) Again, when Lord Seaton by that
very extraordinary manner in which he governed
Canada produced rebellion—not in NOva Scotia' for
in Nova. Scotia there never was rebellion, but in
other parts—it was the native troops, under the com-
mand of Sir A. M‘Nab and Sir F. Bond Head, who drove
out the Yankee sympathisers and the French rebels.
(Cheers.) The same thing could be done again, but the very
knowledge that England would protect the country in time
of nead was a protection of itself. If it were announced
that the troops would ,be withdrawn, and the colonies
must protect themselves, it would lead to trouble with
their neighbours ; while the very knowledge that a great
country like England, with a, large army and a powerful
fleet, was willing to take them under its wing, was a protec-
tn against the most powerful neighbour they had to fear, if
r were not a word inapplicable to the case. (Hear, hear.)
If the troops were withdrawn, what did they want with the
colonies ? Let them give the colonies under those circum-
stances their independence. They did, not ask or
want it, and would receive it with regret, but the
colonists were men of English extraction, and would
say, "If you are come to the condition of /tome, and you
must gather your legions from the extremities of your em-
pire, give us our independence and leave us, and we • will
say God speed and protect you as in the olden time." • But
when hon. members talked of the militia and governing the
colonies, England did not govern, but misgoverned them ;
England did net manage their affairs, but mismanaged them.
What had occurred with regard to the militia within the
last three or four years ? Why, that a boy of 15 or 16 years
of age;at Eton or one of the public schools, was made a
colonel of the •militia of Nova Scotia. (Hear.) Was the ap-
pointment of a boy who was learning his Latin and Greek
grammar in this country, over the heads of • old men in the
colony,' because it would give the boy rankhereafter, likely
to encourage the militia to turn out ? In his opinion it was
turning the whole thing into ridicule. (Hear.) These were
the blessings they enjoyed and the encouragement they re-
ceived. What had the colonies to do with an European
war ? Their ships were plundered on the high seas, their
sailors were impressed in their towns, and the enemy's
ships were in all their coves and creeks, watching for their
homeward-bound ships. The quarrel was not one of theirs.
When this country undertook to govern the colonies, and
when it made laws suitable for itself, well and good ; but
Parliament ought, at least, to ask the colonies whether the
same laws were suited to their condition. (Hear.) When
they gave to America the coasting trade of •this country,
what right had they to give her also the coasting trade of
thfrom Boston, round South Ame-
ceeacsotilmin,gietsr—adwel,l"atthriegthratdh they ro extend under the termearice, to California ? (Hear.) Yet that was one of their acts,
and it was one that had almost ruined the shipping of the
North American colonies. (Cheers.) Look at the extent
and feeling of those colonies. They contained 4,000,000 in-
telligent, loyal, and patriotic men. They made an offer of
two regiments for the Crimea, and one of their reg,iments
wag now in this country. The sympathies of the colonies
were still further evinced in the Legislative grants and
subscriptions for the Patriotic Fund and the Indian Mutiny-
Fund, of the distribution of which latter fund he was otie of
the managers, He did not recollect all the figures, but from
the Australian colonies alone £70,000 were received in sub-
scriptions and grants. (Hear, hear.) If Great Britain were
to withdraw her legions, let the colonies have fair notice.
lie was glad that the right hon. gentleman had given so
proper an answer to the question put to him, and that his
answer would go out to the colonies. If this country were
to withdraw her troops, let there be an understanding how
and when 'they. were to be withdrawn. He had had
the satisfaction of bringing before the late Secretary of
the Colonies— a , plan by which it would not :be
ndces4ari.to keep a single soldier in Canada. If that
chain 'of railways which ran from Halifax to New Bruns-
wick were completed by the construction of a small portion
to Quebec, in 12 days, and at any :season of the year, the
Government of this country could send as many troops as •