The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-08 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLI AMENT.

THIS DAY, SATURDAY, AUG. 9.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

The Lords met at eleven o'clock this morning. Prayers
were read by the Bishop of Bristol.
The Earl of SHAF TESBURY took his seat on the Woolsack.
Counsel were called in, and Mr. KNIGHT appeared.
SEIREWSBURY.

Mr. Miller examined.—l am Deputy Recorder of Shrews-
bury. lam a barrister of twenty years standing. lam a
resident proprietor within the Liberty, and have been perfectly
acquainted with the affairs of the Corporation twenty years.
The Borough Magistrates vary ; there is about an equal num-
ber of gentlemen and tradesmen. Justice was done in Ses-
sions and out of Sessions with great integrity, clearness, and
satisfaction to the public. I speak of my experience as a
Counsel at the bar, but I have been Deputy Recorder myself
for the last two years, of which time it does not become me
to speak. The Corporate body have power to levy a rate for
watching and lighting, but this affects the old Liberty only, and
not the new parliamentary borough, which would be saddled
with a rate if this Bill passes, as well as the expense of maintain-
ing the county bridges, which is a very serious disadvantage.
I cannot vouch for the truth of that consequence however.
The Free School bears the highest character. Believes that it
has gained more prizes, scholarships, and honours than any
two schools in England for the last ten years. The head-
master is Dr. Butler. The right of freedom is hereditary. Am
one of the burgesses. My descendants, born and unborn, have
a right to partake of all the advantages of this school. Con.
&der the power of educating My children there their best pa-
trimony ; in the first place they have the right of gratuitous
education ; in the next place, the exhibitions, of which there
are seven or eight, afford half a maintenance at the University.
Am one of the trustees of the school. Since it had got out of an
almost interminable Chancery suit, the excess of income
has been about 8001. a year, with which they had founded
two new exhibitions. Expect to be able to found another
in the course of three or four years. Knoasseveral instances in
which decayed tradesman's sons would have gone without
education but for this school, where they got exhibitions ; no
distinction is made between the rich and the poor, the gentle-
man and the tradesman—all boys have a fair chance. St.
John's College, Cambridge, appoints the head master. If
this Bill passes, thinks that a question will be raised of the
right of every inhabitant of Shrewsbury to send his children
to the school, and the preponderance of my opinion is, that it
will give them the right to send their children, and I know
that that is the opinion of the inhabitants. This amounts to
an expectation on the part of, I will not say the town classes,
but on the part of many of the higher classes ' • for instance,
at present a great many gentlemen with large families come
from Ireland for the express purpose of the advantages of this
school ; but they pay Dr. Butler. This class would suppose,
that as they rent houses in the town, this Bill will give them
the right of sending their children free. A great number of
the inhabitants of the town were not burgesses, and when
they had large families they petitioned the Corporation to be
made burgesses. The Corporation admitted them till they found
out the reason of their application, and then they refused to admit
them merely for the sake of getting education for nothing.
The existence of the school, independent of education, was of
great advantage to the town. I calculate that it occasions
directly and indirectly an expenditure of near 30,0001. a year
in the town. There have been about 300 boys in the school,
and I know the expense of their education is not less than
100/. each, independently of those who are resident. Gen-
tlemen of the first station in England send their sons there.
There are at present in the school the sons of two Chief.Jus-
tices_Denrcan and Tyndal. If all the children of the inha-
bitants were let in, it would be impossible for any master to
manage the school, and it would entirely destroy the adequate
provision of Dr. Butler. The salary he receives from the
Corporation is highly inadequate.
Lord RADNOR—What is it P.-L.About 4001. a year. It
would be ruinous to the town if the school were turned into
one for writing and arithmetic. There are plenty of such
schools, which are largely and liberally supported. There are
some church livings the gift of the Corporation. The last
living that was vacant was St. Mary's. There were three
candidates, two of whom were connected with the Corpora-
tion, and the other, who was not, was elected to the living.
As he was to preach to the boys of the school, the great object
of the Corporation was to find a sound, orthodox, honest man.
There arc a great many incorporated guilds or companies in
the town, but the Corporation has no power over them. They
have a general control over the town, and may summon the
wardens of these guilds to do certain suits of suit and service,
but they have no control over their internal concerns. The
latest date under which these guilds were incorporated, is the
reign of Queen Anne. My opinion relative to the control of
the Corporation over these companies, was adverse to that of
the Commissioners. The Commissioners asserted the Corpo-
ration had a control over them, but as a lawyer I differed with
them. The Commissioners found fault with certain fines im-
posed by these guilds for admission, and I said we had nothing
to do with that. I cited some cases of " the King v. the
Carpenters' Company," and " the King v. the Mercers' Com-
pany," which were tried in the Court of King's Bench, and
which abler lawyers must know something of, in support
of thy • opinion that the Corporation had no control over
them. I said that, under existing circumstances, these
guilds were a scandalous nuisance in the town; and I ac-
comp..a:4 tat dc.clazat;oa bi...teailent, that thc:
had been established in the infancy of commerce, and
had outlived their use, and were now a scandalous nuisance.
I now complain of the manner in which that statement is given
in the Report, because the Commissioners omitted my prece-
ding observations. I say the Report is untrue and unfair. I
will say nothing of its honesty.
By Lord BROUGHAM—I will not say it is a dishonest
Report, God forbid.
Lord BROUGHAM—That answer does you great credit.

By Mr. KNIGHT—The demeanour and manner of the Corn-
mis::,ioners to us was most courteous, but as a man accustomed
to Courts of Justice, I must say the mode was not judicial—
every word and statement being pounced upon. I should say
it was rather the manner of partizans than a fair inquiry. I
should say further, if it be not considered impertinent, that
was more satisfied with the manner of Mr. Rushton, than of
Mr. Culburne, the other Commissioner. There is another
very important point which I complain of in this Report.
There is in Shrewsbury a Record Court, in which we can try
all cases. We can try anything. Mr. Peel gaVe evidence re-
lative to it, and as to the cheapness and expedition with which
judgment could be obtained, and he gave such a picture of the
proceedings and officers,that the Commissioners did say certainly
nothing could be more creditable to the Court. I have looked
in vain for that meed of approbation in the report, and there I
should say it is an unfair report. We have excellent juries in
our borough court. The adoption of the Parliamentary boun-
daries would diminish the fairness of the juries. Our court
is not open to the objection of most local courts, as we mix
farmers and men of rural occupations with the townsmen on
juries. The proceedings of that Court have in my conscience
secured for it the approbation of the town. The Charity
Commissioners visited Shrewsbury previous to the Municipal
Commissioners. The Municipal Commissioners commenced
by asking about our charities, and I soliloquised in an audible
voice—( Laughter)—" What have they to do with our charities?"
—(Renewed laughter.) This startled them a little. As a
lawyer I objected to a second trial without cause shown.
By Lord BROUGHAM—The schools are much better
than if universal access was allowed. I was educated at the
Shrewsbury School for two years under the old system, which
died of inanition, there being not a boy left.—(A laugh.) In
all the schools with which I am acquainted there is education
of a religious nature. It does form part of the discipline of
the school, that the children who are boarders must attend the
Church. The town children are supposed to attend with their
parents, and may go to chapel if they please. I remember two
exhibitions being obtained by the children of Dissenters, but
they were town children. The Catechism of the Church is
taught in all the schools. _ _

130 you think that a conscientious Dissenter then will send
his child to be taught the Catechism of the Church ?---Why,
my Lord, lam no casuist.--( A laugh.)
Suppose you a churchman, and a conscientious one, no doubt,
would you feel it right to send your children to a Baptist school
to be taught their catechism ?—( With emphasis. )—My Lord,
I cannot admit the hypothesis that I could allow my child to
attend any such place.
Lord BKOUG H A M—l thought not. Then, can you sug-
gest any means by which a school may be opened for Dissen-
ters and Churchmen alike, except by excluding religion as a
part of the discipline of the school ? Can you devise any
means of giving them religious instruction which shall please
both ?—Why, my Lord, I do not consider religion a matter of
such an accommodating nature as that such a thing can be done.
By Lord KENYON—His opinion was, that in point of fact
there were some Dissenters in the school.

By the Duke of CUMBERLAND—Do you not consider
it highly essential that religion should form a part of educa-
tion ?—Most certainly, my Lord. The exhibitions are va-
luable, and are to a number of Colleges.
By the Earl of RADNOR—Was certainly of opinion that
the opening of Dr. Butler's school, or the making of it a mere
school for writing and arithmetic, would ruin it, but saw nothing
in the Bill to make it so. Was one of the trustees of the
school, and saw a prospect of adding to the exhibitions.
You think, then, if the monopoly is broken up, it will injure
you ?—We think if others put their bands into our pockets,
we shall suffer. The emoluments and advantages of the foun-
dation have been increased within your memory ?—Princi-
pally of late, through getting rid of a perpetual blister of a
Chancery suit.
And those emoluments you wish to retain though en-
larged ?—We wish to have the lawful advantages of our own
property for us and our heirs.—( Laughter.)
How came it your property ?—lt was given to us by our
royal Sovereign.
To whom was it given ?—To the burgesses of Shrewsbury.
Do you find any expressions in the Report inconsistent with
the approbation expressed by the Commissioners. And will
you point out any such expressions ?—I do not say, my Lord,
there is any expression of vituperation, but the approbation is
not so frank as expressed at the time.

That is, the Report is not so complimentary ?—lt is not so
just.
The last three questions and answers were read over again
to the witness by Mr. Gurney, the short-hand writer.
Lord RADNOR—Then you think there are no expres-
sions of approbation but what are just? Witness—l have not
said that.

Lord RADNOR—Then explain yourself. Witness--Well,
I will explain myself, if your Lordship will give me leave.
Lord RADNOR—I was asking for that explanation.
Witness—Throughout that Report there are not those cordial
and frank expressions of approbation which were given when
the accounts were produced, and sliewn without a blot,
without a penny taken from them, to put in our own
pockets, arWasted for 70 years ; and I did not expect to see