The Sun.
London, England, 1832-01-19 00:00:00

different places." Now a considerable.portion of this
has been already effected by various Reforms in Ireland.
Nearly the whole of it is to be effected, both with regard to
England and Ireland, by the Bill about to be introduced to
the House. But if there be any distinction to be drawn
between England and Ireiand, those cases must rest on our
showing particular circumstances, either with regard to the
terms of land or considerations, to justify us in
making aay alteritiou between the two cases.
One of the great mistakes of carrying on the system of
Reform at the Union, in cutting off the other decayed
boroughs, appears to be this, that while they struck
off the rotten boroughs, and left the large towns, little
if any attention was paid to what must be considered the
vital principle, namely that of those towns which were
left what should be the constituency which the interests
or the Members of those towns had in sending Members
of Parliament. It is nothing to say that Belfast in Ireland,
or Bath in England, returned a Member to Parliament,
but the question is whether the retur❑ of that member is
satisfactory to 50,000 persons, or whether the interest is
confined to about thirteen persons. Now we propose to
follow up in Ireland the system adopted at the Union
—that the great boroughs shall send Members to Parlia-
went, and to go this step further, viz., to see that they shall
not only in name, but in reality, be the Members of
those boroughs. With regard to residence, we make
that point both in the Bill for England, and
in the Bill for Ireland, a■ essential requisite in the
right of voting to send Members to Parliament. Let
it be well understood that I take the liberty to follow
the laying down this broad principle, that we are
to du by Ireland as we do by England, unless
we can show that those peculiar circumstances
exist which render it necessary to alter our conduct in re-
spect to the one and in respect to the other; and with this
proposition I shall take the liberty of comparing
the franchise we propose to establish, with the fran-
chise the English Bill proposes to give. But be-
fore I proceed to that I may be permitted to say
a few words on the subject, which has excited consider-
able attention, and upon which I have the mis-
fortune to differ with some gentlemen, whose opinions
I du very greatly respect, but have the good fortune
to agree with those whose opinions I more highly
esteem. He proposed by the last Bill to augment
the representation of Ireland, by giving five addi-
tional Members—we propose that it shall be the
same now; at the same time I am sure that we
many gentlemen here who think Ireland has in that
have respect been unfairly dealt by. In introducing this
Bill to Parliament, we are not revising or discussing the
terms on which the Union was formed between two in-
dependent countries ; and I am aware that we should have
escaped all this difficulty and not been liable to all the attack
to which we have been exposed had we laid down the
broad rule, that -with the proportions fixed at the Union,
as regarded Ireland, we would not depart. At
the same time I am aware this is a difficulty which we
have to meet, and is an argument furnished to
our opponents, that it will be our duty to combat
with, while at the same time the benefits intended to be
given to Ireland are complained against, because we
do not give a sufficient number of Members to Ireland.
But if any one will look back to the discussions and the
debates which took place in the year 1831 and 1832,
he will fiud that there was never any such thing pro-
posed as that the number of representatives for Ireland
should bear an exact proportion to the number of
British representatives, as compared with the re-
spective wealth, and the respective population of the
different countries. It will appear that at that time a
proposal was made and accepted, founded on very loose
basis, that the number of Members fur Great Britain
should be 558, and tke number fur Ireland 106 to
serve in Parliament. And here, I would observe,
that there is no injury done to the kingdom of Ireland
by the number of additional Members that are given to
Scotland, because the arrangement at the Union
was not made between England, Ireland, and Scotland,
as a party tripartite, but between England and Ireland
alone ; and whatever arrangement now takes place be-
tween England and Ireland does not affect the Irish and
English arrangement in any way. Supposing, for in-
stance, that a number of Members were taken from
Ireland and given to Scotland, why then there might
be the same argument raised against such an arrangement.
Mr. Pitt, in moving in Parliament, at the time of the
Union, that the proposal from the Irish Parliament should
be acceded to, considered the proposal one of justice, and
so reasonshle that he could not think the English Parliament
could object to it. It appeared to him difficult to form
a fair plan as regarded Members, at the same time he was
not aware that exact numbers were very material—nor
. .

could be think any proposition could be more proper to be
adopted than the
tnelrishparlia proposal
ment;n which bad come
othing,however,cn from
uldbe
more satisfactory than such a statement as this from
supposedd
nt lin at
ethe r number ;
()
Ito!
and that again
cplPiradii :teat!: Ray aelenpsdt
troaewts
eecani sort:a
circumstances
property
tpstle anrvb etcayes
awtsnouhd
which
population
no
o
;
could be the intention of the Imperial Parliament.
never foresee. This
to depend upon the jarring affairs of the two countries, in-
It is for this reason, and feeling that it could have been
Ireland any
t
as
yt
r of rnog enr
rather that there should be an augmentation from the
andyenanotamgeeasnssbeprboapdertutobehagviveentaktuentbaew
stronger to the weaker, that his Mrjesty's Government
proposes to give to the different parts of Ireland the addi-
tional five representatives now proposed to be given.
In looking at the various qualifications which we have
thought it right to adopt with regard to England and Ire-
land, and to the various provisions relating to them, we
found it unnecssary to adopt the principle of disfranchise-
ment in Ireland to any very great extent. There are few
towns in Ireland is now returning Members which do nut
furnish a very respectable constituency. WWI regard to
the freehold qualification for voting in counties, we pro.
pose to extend to Ireland the same principle as that
adopted with regard to England—i.e., we consider
the propriety of adding to the freehold constituency
a leasehold, constituting having an adequate share of pro-
perty, and if any Hon. Gentleman will compare the quali-
fications of one country and the other, it will be found that
the leaseholders of Ireland will not have the the slightest
reason to complain. In England, if a person either have a
lease of 60 years with a beneficial interest of 101. or a lease
of 20 years with a bennficial interest of 501. or, if he be a
tenant at will, at a rental of not less than 501. a year, he
is entitled to a vote. In the former Irish Bill the alter-
native was taken of the amount of rent, but, as unfortu-
nately in Ireland, the amount of rent on a lease does not
prove the respectability of the voter, and as that
Bill embraced the objectionable clause via. that of paying
up the rent. We have in the present Bill struck out the
criterion of rent, and adopted that of the beneficial in-
terest arising from the lease. We originally intended to
take twenty years as the term, but upon consideration

and enquiry, it was proved that, that period would ex-
clude a great number of persons who holding under leases
we considered ought to he fairly entitled to a vote.
We found there were so many leases existing for a term
_ _ _

of 21 years of which the occupying tenants held in many
instances but for six or seven years. We therefore adopted
a medium by taking a lease for fourteen years, with a be-
neficial interest of 20/. Now, if lion. Gentlemen corn-

pared the twenty years lease and the 50/. beneficial in-
terest in England, with the _ fourteen years lease

and the beneficial interest of 201. in Ireland, it

would be seen as far as the leaseholders in

Ireland was uoucerned—he was put upon as good, and
indeed better terms than the leaseholder in England. In

England you have the lowest class of constituency, viz.,
the 40s. t,-eeholders, which class is exempted from the
constituency of Ireland. I will now refer to some returns
which have been presented eo this House for the purpose
of showing the proportion in which the property of
some of the counties in Ireland are represented.—
By a paper, which is dated 1830, containing a list of the
. . _ _

Freeh-olders of all the counties in Ireland, it appeared that

there were 53,152 freeholders, not leis than .22'000 of

whom were registered as 50/._ freeholders; 10,000 more

as 20!. freeholders, leaving the lowest class of 101. free-
holders at only about 21,000, and that in a country where
the bulk of the property belonged to Protestants. In
the county of Munster there were 15,382 Catholic free-

holders, of which 7,382 were of 501. ; 3,113 of 20'., and
4,900 of 101. In the province of Ulster, where the Pro-
testant interest was the strongest in Ireland, and where a
large proportion of the lower classes were Protestants, and

not Catholics, the 101. freeholders were in number 8,535

out of a total of little better than 16,000. So that
it appears that where the Pi otvotant interest is the
greatest, the 101 freeholders are the most nume-

...
roils, but where the Catholic interest -is the greatest
the 50/. freeholders were the most numerous. Ido not

state these facts for the purpose of creating a distinction
between the Protestant and Catholic interests, nor do 1
wish to set those two interests at variance with each other.
I wish to sliew, that all interests will be fairly re-
preseated, and if there is any one wish nearer to my heart
than another, it is, that I may never again hear the

terins of Protestant interest, or Catholic interest.—

I am told that by this extension of the ecustituency. 1 am
wishing to overthrow the Protestant interest, I show that 1

can have no sue!' ife.sire, I wish to see all interests fairly

represented, but I wish to overthrow the political power
of those who, witu religion ou the one hand, and politics