The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JULY 17, 1835

• 1 any of those Honourable Gentlemen who joined in the chaos
to tell him what were the birthrights of the freemen here
spoken of. If they consisted of any thing granted, or held
for the good of the people at large, he should be as ready as
any one to give his vote in favour of the freemen and their chil-
dren. But if, as he believed was the case, the rights in ques-
tion were exercised for the perpetuation of abuses, by which,
so far from the people benefiting, the people were actually
ground down to the dust—( Cries of " Oh," from the Opposi.
tion)—if they were forthcoming for the support of every cor-
rupt Government, and actively employed against every spe-
cies of Reform in particular, then he must say that he should
be for depriving parties so using powers entrusted to them for
the general good, of all such powers and privileges, under
whatever name it might be the pleasure of individuals to re-
cognize them.—(Cheers.) He would next read to the House
a paper containing similar sentiments, and coming from the
same place.—( Loud cries of " Name," from the Opposition.)
He did not think he need name the place ; but, at all events,
he would read first. What he was about to read came from
a town for the representation of which there was a Whig
and Tory candidate, and was stuck up as a placard upon
the most conspicuous places. It was to the following effect :
" Brother Electors 1 Can you believe it possible that the Whig
faction in this city have determined to rob you of every right
and privilege which you and your ancestors have always en-
joyed? Can you, I say, believe it, that our worthy Whig can-
didate will not be at the expense of a chair; no, he will not
even allow you to see his face after the election ! The usual
attendance of constables, band of music, chairmen, chair-
makers, &c., &c., will not therefore, be required. Brother
electors I will you, can you, sit down quietly and witness
every feeling of decency to be outraged.—( Laughter.) If
these are the blessings to be bestowed upon us by the hacknied
and misapplied names of reform and purity, then away with
them ! and let us at once arouse from the delusive slumber,
and have a man who will not profess one thing and mean ano-
ther; not a man who, under the beautiful garb of purity, takes
from us the birth-right of Britons."—( Renewed laughter, and
cries of " Name 1" from the Opposition.) The city of York
was the quarter from whence the paper came which he had read.
In conclusion, the Hon. Member observed, that he should sup-
port his Majesty's Government in their opposition to the at-
tempted alteration in the clause relating to freemen, whether
his name figured in a red or a black list.
Sir M. W. RIDL E Y protested in the name of the whole
body of the freemen of this country against the sweeping de-
nunciation pronounced by the Hon. Member who had just sat
down. There had been, undoubtedly, many cases of delin-
quency on the part of freemen, for which they deserved in-
dividually to be punished ; but it was most unjust to ascribe
collectively to the class the corruptions of a few. The birth-
rights and privileges of the freemen had descended to them
_ _

From their forefathers—they had been earned and paid fO1l;
their labour, and ought to be preserved.
The Hon. THOMAS DUNDAS said he was the Mem-
ber alluded to in the placard read by his Hon. Friend.
He bagged to explain that since the passing of the Reform
Act he had thought it his duty to preserve the purity of
election as much as possible. He had therefore resolved to
dispense with the ceremony of chairing, which he looked
upon as a means merely of engaging a certain portion of
influence in his favour. He had however given, for better
purposes, to the town the full amount of the expenses of
chairing.—( Hear.)

Mr. —LOWTHER thought the House ought not to at-
tach too much importance to documents of the nature read
by the Hon. Member for Cockermouth. Such a document
ought not to affect the general character of the freemen of
this country.
Mr. H UTT said a few words, which were inaudible.
Mr. ROEBUCK was also inaudible, owing to the groans
from the Opposition by which he was saluted upon rising.
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES thought the Noble Lord (Lord
J. Russell), looking at the last division, and seeing that there
was defection in his camp, ought not to oppose the proposed
amendment.

Mr. GROVE PRICE complained of the interruption of-
fered to Hon. Members who rose to deliver their sentiments on
this important Bill, and said he should move the adjournment
of the debate=(Louderies of ‘‘ Oh.")_

Mr. BERNAL called upon Hon. Members to take their
places, and preserve order.
Mr. HARDY supported the amendment. He contended
that the privileges of the freemen were of great value to them,
as well in a pecuniary point of view as for the honour attached
to the possession of them. He could not consent, without any
evidence of the necessity of the case, to the spoliation of these

persons.
The Committee then divided—
For Mr. Ponsonby's amendment 203
Against it
Majority 3l
The Committee immediately afterwards divided on the mo-
tion, "that the clause stand part of the Bill."
For the motion
Against it
Majority 69
Mr. LENNARD, after some prefatory observations, which
were rendered wholly inaudible by the general confusion and
hubbub, moved the addition to the 12th clause of the follow-
ing words :—_" or who shall espouse the daughter of any free-
man of any borough, such daughter having been born before
the sth day of June."
Lord JOHN RUSSELL briefly opposed the amendment.
Sir R. ITYVYAN (as we understood) supported it.
Colonel SIBTHORP was averse to proceeding further
with the Bill at that late hour ; and moved that the Chairman
report progress.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL remonstrated against the pro-
position. The Hon. and Gallant Member must be aware that
the state of the public business was such as to render it
highly expedient to get through this Bill with as little delay
as possible.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that he was as tired of the Bill
as the Noble Lord could possibly be ; but still it ought to be
discussed at proper seasons.

After a feiv remarks from Sir R. INGLIS, however, Col.
Sibthorp withdrew his motion, and the Committee divided on
Mr. Lennard's amendment.
For the Amendment
Against it
Majority
It was then moved, previous to the re-admission of strangers,
" That the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit
again," upon which the Committee again divided.
For the motion
Against it
Majority --157
The clauses up to 48, were agreed to with a few verbal
amendments.

The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the House
resumed.

Mr. HUME begged to ask the Noble Lord, as the whole
of the Bill had not been gone through that night, what course
he intended to pursue?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that he should move to-
morrow that the Bill be proceeded with, when he hoped it
would be carried through. In that case ho should move that
the Report be received on Saturday, and that the third reading
be taken on Monday.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at two o'clock.

DIVISIONS LAST NIGHT ON THE RE-COMMITMENT
OF THE MUNICIPAL CORPORATION BILL.
For Mr. Ponsonby's motion
Against it
Majority in favour of the Government 3l
For Mr. Trevor's motion that the clause do not
stand part of the Bill
Against it
Majority in favour of Government 69
For Mr. Lennard's motion . 50
Against it
Majority in favour of Government.

_HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 16.
LOAN SOCIETIES.
On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND the Loan
Societies Bill was read a third time and passed.
Petitions were presented from Orkney, Inverness, and other
places in Scotland, in support of the Established Church of
Scotland.

ST. STEPHEN'S CHAPEL.
Lord DUNCANNON laid on the table the report of Sir
R. Smirke and other architects, relative to the ruins of St.
Stephen's Chapel.

be false. The assertion of his (the Bishop of Exeter) was
confirmed by the statement in Dens's work to which he had
previously referred. He believed he had now said enough to
convict this public functionary, of putting forth, if not of
holding opinions, which rendered him very unfit to hold the
office of a Commissioner of National Instruction. He felt
that he was justified in making the charge, and that a
prima facie case had been made out against him. If it was
found that he (the Bishop of Exeter) was wrong, he would
come forward much more cheerfully to retract these charges,
than he had made them. The Right Reverend Prelate then
presented a petition from a clergyman who had formerly re-
sided in Ireland, but had been obliged to fly to England in con-
sequence of the persecutions to which he had been exposed.
lie begged to say, with respect to a petition which he had
formerly presented from the Reverend Mr. Nangle, of
Achil, that the persecution to which the children who attended
the Rev. Gentleman's schools had been exposed, had entirely
ceased. The Bible which was sent forth in 1816 under the
authority of Dr. Murray's predecessor, to whom he believed
Dr. Murray then acted as coadjutor, the Douay Bible of 1816,
was put forth with notes of the Rhemish translation, and
among them was the following :—Deut. xvii. 12.—" He that
will be proud, and refuse to obey the commandment of the
priest—that man shall die." Another note was—" Here we
see what authority God was pleased to give to the Church
guides of the Old Testament, in deciding, without appeal, all
controversies relating to the law, promising that they should
not err therein (and punishing with death such as proudly re-
fused to obey their decisions) : and surely he has not done
less for the Church guides of the New Testament. The good
must tolerate the evil, when it is so strong that it cannot be
redressed without danger and disturbance of the whole
Church ; and commit the matter to God's judgment in the
latter day. Otherwise, where ill men (be they heretics or
other malefactors) may be punished or suppressed without
disturbance and hazard of the good, they may and ought,
by public authority, either spiritual or temporal, to be
chastised or executed." He should refer only to
one more note. Speaking of Pilate's expression--
Matt. xxvii. 24., " I am innocent of the blood of this just
man," the note said, " Though Pilate was much more in•
nocent than the Jews, &c., yet he is damned for being the
minister of the people's wicked will against his own con-
science. Even as all officers are, and especially the judges
and juries, which execute laws of temporal princes against
Catholic men ; for all such are guilty of innocent blood, and
are nothing excused by that they execute the laws which are
unjust, for they should rather suffer death themselves than
put an innocent man to death;" That was the more impor-
tant to be considered, as one of the questions to be discussed
was as to the duty of the judge and jury. Certainly the
statements he had now read, were not made on the authority
of the Bible. He did not mean to state that this had not
been at all reformed, for it had ; but it had been published
with the express permission of the Roman Catholic Arch-
bishop of Dublin. After having vise forth for twelve months,
in an expensive large quarto volume, published however in
numbers, that the people might be able to purchase it, it was
discovered and reviewed in the British Critic, the attention
of the people of England was drawn to it, and then one uni-
versal burst of indignation arose. On that Dr. Troy sent for
the printer, and asked him how he could think of publishing
the Bible as with his authority, when that authority had not
been given, and that the thing had produced prodigious mis-
chief, not that it was wrong, but that being received in this
way it had produced mischief. The bookseller asked him if
he had not authorized a Mr. Macnamara to publish a Bible,
and if a Mr. Walsh had not been appointed by him to revise
the notes to it ? He admitted such to be the fact. Then,
said the bookseller, that is the very Bible published under
their direction. Mr. O'Connell, much to his honour, had
taken up a part of the notes at the Catholic Board, and had
required that a vote should be passed, disclaiming, as part of
the Roman Catholic doctrines, something which was there
said. Mr. O'Connell said, "If I thought it essential to the
Roman Catholic Church to hold the doctrine contained in the
notes to the Bible which justify the murder of heretics as such,
and the breaking oaths with heretics as such, I would no
longer belong to that Church"—he did not say compatible
with, but essential to—the difference was material. But how
was the motion met ? Other members said that those were not
matters for them to discuss, and the utmost that was done was
to appoint a committee to consider of the matter. When the
day arrived for their making a Report, none was made, the
thing was delayed ; it was again delayed, and again, till at
length, after an interval of a month, the Roman Catholic Board
ceased to exist, and by that notable contrivance saved the Ro-
man Catholic laity from the duty of disclaiming this book.
Dr. Murray referred to " the opinions of Dens respecting the
rights of temporal States to compel their subjects to embrace
religions which their consciences did not approve," as
if it was not beyond the right of political States to com-
pel their subjects to embrace religious doctrines of which their
consciences would not approve. He was sorry to be
obliged to say, that in his opinion Dr. Murray would find
it difficult to relieve himself from the charge of actually and
knowingly making a misstatement of the matter. That it was
so he should prove by reading three lines from Dons. After
having stated, on the authority of the Council, that those
who disbelieved might be exiled, imprisoned, and put to death,
and proved the right to such power by citing the proper au-
thorities, he came to the question, What are the punishments
inflicted on those who were not the baptized servants of the
Church ? The answer was, " Non baptizati prmdictus peones,
quw ab ecclesia constitutor sunt, non incurrunt, utpote cede-
sim non subjecti." Those who were not baptized did not
incur the penalty, for they were not the subjects of the Church.
That was a distinct proof that these punishments were for
offences towards the political state. Dr. Murray had ex-
pressed such opinions with respect to the Protestant reli-
gion as he could not dare to prove. He contended, then,
that his (Dr. Murray's) holding such opinions, and his en-
forcing such a system of instruction for the Clergy of
Ireland, rendered him of very questionable fitness for the
situation which he held in that country—namely, one of
his Majesty's Commissioners for National Education in Ire-
land. He thought that Dr. Murray had taken the best pos-
sible course, in addressing his letter to his Majesty's Prime
Minister, as one whose duty it was to decide whether or not
he would advise his Majesty—although no determination on
the question might have been conveyed by a vote of Parlia-
ment, and he (the Bishop of Exeter) would at once say that
he did not mean to call for a vote of their Lordships with re-
ference to this subject—to take any steps with reference to the
continuance of Dr. Murray in his situation. It was, he re-
peated, certainly a very proper course for Dr. Murray to ad-
dress his defence on this very grave charge to the Prime Mi-
nister of the Crown, who had an opportunity of deciding on
his fitness or unfitness for the high post and trust of confidence
which be (Dr. Murray) held under his Majesty's Government.
He applauded Dr. Murray for the manliness of his conduct in
this respect. He had thus stated the grounds on which he
thought himself justified in making the charge which he had
brought against Dr. Murray ; and it appeared to him that he
had, at all events, established a prima facie case against him.
Dr. Murray would have similar opportunities to those of
which he had before availed himself, to rebut anything which
he had then stated. He assured their Lordships that
if he were shown to be wrong in any of the statements which
he had submitted, he should be as ready to retract it as he had
then been in making it. He would go further, and say that he
should feel infinitely less reluctance in making the retraction
than he had felt in making the charge.—( Hear, hear.) Hav-
ing said thus much in allusion to Dens's Theology and Dr.
Murray, he would conclude by moving simply, " that the
petition of which he had spoken do lie on their Lordships'
table." It was the petition of a clergyman belonging to the
United Churches of England and Ireland, who had been
driven from Ireland by illness, and who now lived within
three miles of London. He stated facts, and expressed views
which were the result of personal experience, as well as of
accurate information. He would, therefore, add to his for-
mer motion, that not only should the petition lie on the
table, but that it be read aloud by the Clerk. He would
just before he sat down, state two facts which had come to his
knowledge, and which he felt assured would be most gratifying
to their Lordships. One was, that since the presentation
of the petition of the Rev. Mr. Nangle, which related to
outrages which had been committed on Protestant
children and adults, by Roman Catholics in Achlin,
these outrages had ceased, and ono of those who took a

most active -part in them bad recently become a convert to
the Protestant religion, and joined the congregation of Mr.
Nangle. There was also another fact of a very gratifying
nature, which he would state on the authority of one of the
Inspectors of the schools of the Kildare-street Society, and
which related to a man more distinguished for talent than any
man of his day, of whom, as he was dead, it was agreeable to
have to say nothing but what was pleasing. He alluded to
Dr. Doyle, who, he believed, had changed his mind before his
death on many points of conduct, if not of religion. The au-
thority for what he was about to inform their Lordships was
one of the Inspectors of the schools of the Kildare-street So-
ciety, who had visited Carlow, and who there found Dr. Doyle,
who, shortly before his death, notwithstanding all the vio'ent
opposition which he had previously felt it his duty to give these
schools in Ireland, visited the infant school of the Society,
which at first he viewed with apparent grief : but after
having made inquiries as to the orphan asylum under the
direction of the same Society, he said (alluding to his des-
perate state of health, and speaking as a dying man), " I am
now going, and I leave my blessing with you." The Bishop
concluded by moving that this petition be read ; whch
having been done,
Lord MELBOURNE spoke as follows—l am sure your
Lordships will give me full credit for not entertaining the least
wish to protract this discussion.—( Hear, hear.) I think, !my
Lords, that such a discussion as that which has been entered
on by the Right Rev. Prelate, and the tone and temper ind
spirit in which it has been introduced—although the manner
and the terms in which it has been conducted are sufficiently
courteous and unobjectionable--yet I repeat, it must be felt
that the temper and spirit of it can tend to nothing but he
creation of every species of altercation, and every kind of pro-
vocation—to the revival of ancient recollections, which should,
by all possible means be avoided, and to the productioni in
every shape, of aniruosity and discord.—( Cheers.) Most of
the arguments which the Right Rev. Prelate has now advanced,
were used by a Rev. Brother of his, in a debate which took

place in the House during the last session of Parliament. Here
Is a story my Lords, referring to ancient times, in which iC is
related that a Prelate was taken prisoner at the head of a body
of troops, by some temporal sovereign ; and he was then de-
manded by the Pope, as being under his jurisdiction. The
temporal sovereign is said to have sent back, in reply to the
request of the Pope, the coat of mail of the Bishop, accom-
panied with this question, " Is this thy son's. coat ?"—( Re-
peated cheers.) I beg leave, then, to ask the Right Rev.
Prelate at the head of the Church, whether he thinks that the
speech which your Lordships have just heard, is a speech be-
comiag a Bishop, even were the tone, temper, and spirit of it
tuose which he is desirous of seeing adopted by any one of
his suffragans?—(Cheers renewed.) My Lords, it is not
for me
to enter mto, or attempt to rebut, all tho coati°.