The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-27 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

Mr. HE RRIE S would now call the attention of the House
to a subject connected with their proceedings a few nights
ago. The Hon. Member for Middlesex had proposed that
the Army Estimates should be referred to a Committee up
stairs, and another proposition had also been made respecting
them. He, therefore, thought it right, in moving the order o
the day for going into Committee on the Army Estimates,
to say, that that evening was the only one on which
they could possibly be entered into, as there were mat-
ters of importance pending, which would preclude them
from having any other opportunity of doing so. On Monday
night a subject of great importance was to be brought forward.
If, therefore, there was any further delay in proceeding
to the consideration of the Estimates, it was his duty
to point out to the House, that the greatest possible
disadvantage and public inconvenience might arise from such
a course. He had thought it his duty to state thus much to
the House, in order that there might be no misapprehension
on the subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved the
order of the day for the House going into a Committee of
Supply on the Army Estimates.
Mr. HUME said it was very true that every motion made
on a night of Supply was to a certain degree an impediment to
that vote ; and ever since he had been a Member of that House
he had always found Chancellors of the Exchequer and Right
Hon. Gentlemen connected with the Government most
anxious to get over the Supplies with as little discussion and
as little delay as possible.—( Laughter.) But it had been the
rule, on many occasions, when individuals held situations in
the Government in whom the House had not confidence, for
the House not to be too ready to place at their disposal the
public funds, without due discussion, and without an attention to
those .reforms and economy which the House should look after.
In theestimates, there were some votes exceedingly difficult
'to deal with—he meant so far as the number of troops was
concerned. Ministers might think it necessary to maintain
the various colonies. It appeared to him that this was a point
settled on the recommendation of the Minister for the Colo-
nial Department, on what was necessary to be done. Upon
his representation, a course was then recommended on
the responsibility of his Majesty's advisers. He thought, how-
ever, it ought to be dealt with by a Committee of the whole
House. He stated this in order to free himself from that
practice which has hitherto been pursued, arid that prerogative
of which was exercised for the public good. But the question he
was about to bring before the attention of the House was whe-
ther they were doing that to which he had pledged himself.
in effecting all the reductions they were enabled. What he
thought ought to be the rule of this house was, not to vote a
single farthing of the public money to his Majesty's Ministers
until they had laid before the House the plan of their measures
as well as their statement on the ways and means. With
that view he had asked the Right Honourable Baronet
to postpone the CoMmittee of supply, but he ( Sir R. Peel)
had very properly said, that it was not the usual course pur-
sued by the House. He could not complain of it, as it seemed
to be the principle of every Ministry to proceed ou this jog-
trot system. It seemed to be the great desire of every Adminis-
tration to maintain as large an establishment as it was pos-
sible they could. He would venture to say that every Admi-
nistration (and he did not mean to blame that of the Right Hon.
Bart. in particular) never had nor never would make reduction
until they were forced upon him, from what he would call the
gentle compulsions from without. It might be considered an
unconstitutional language, but he thought it was the legitimate
interest and positive language to which the House ought to bend.
If the people be of opinion that certain taxes are maintained
detrimental to the public good, the representatives did but
their duty in pressing upon that House to make these
reductions. The course which had been pursued on
this session was' to call for a vote on the Navy Estimates.
he supposed, because they were the most popular, and because
it was considered no 'objection would be made to them. It
would be recollected, that when these estimates came on, it
was past eleven o'clock, and he endeavoured to gain the con-
sent of the Right Hon. Bart. for a temporal-) delay. He
thought the House had been a great deal led astray from the
statement that there was no possibility of further reductions.
It had been said that the only available sum from which further
reductions could be made was 15 millions, thereby excepting
the half-pay, pensions, and superannuated allowances of the
various departments. He believed, however, that this portion
of the public revenue, amounting to about five millions, was
capable, if the Honse would only do its duty, of much further
reduction. Above all, if inquiry was made into the mode in
which the half-pay list had been swelled up for the last 16 years,
by purchases to a large extent, without considering that every
new appointment in the army and navy was:a new pension on
the public, not for one year but according to the age of the
person, for 16 or 18 years. He complained of the Commissions
in the Guards which had been given to the Queen's pages,
each of which cost the country two or three thousands pounds.
He appealed to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland,
who had given such valuable and important information before
the Finance Committee, or the Right Hon. Gentleman who
had spoken last, whether great reductions might not have been
made. The suggestions of the Right Hon. the Secretary for
Ireland had already effected savings to a considerable amount.
There were matters connected with the half pay list which he
would not now more particularly allude to, but which would
shortly come before the public. He would remind the House
of the disclosures that had been made, in consequence of in-
formation furnished to the Secretary at War about four
years ago, when the pension list had gone on rapidly
increasing, and from it appeared that the non-commis
stoned officers and privates had been drawing pensions,
under false certificates. ( Hear, hear, hear.) A similar
investigation now into the mode in which many officers in the
army and navy had obtained their half pay, might
be most advantageous to the interests of the country.
We believe that the Gallant Officer, the Secretary for Ire-
land, could tell that 20,0001. or 30,0001. a year were saved by
the inquiry of that Committee. It was proved that money
was taken from the public purse by fraud and connivance ;
—( Hear)—and as the public had derived so much benefit
from that inquiry, he was anxious to propose a further inquiry,
for the purpose of accomplishing further reductions. A com-
mittee properly constituted could not only recommend, but
carry into effect the consolidation of the services which he
proposed. By the latest returns laid en the table of the House,
it appears we have burthens which could not be reduced
below 28} millions, besides, there was an expenditure of 21
millions further, including three millions for the collection of
the revenue; two millions for the Civil List, diplomatic ex-
penses, &c. ; and fourteen millions, the expense of :maintain-
ing the Army and Navy and other miscellaneous
( Hear, hear.) Therefore he asked the House tq bf,a, with
him, while he proceeded to, show bow the Consolidation
of 919 4Frcy and grdnance could be effected, for he left the
navy 9ui of the question altogether. If they too,k consi-
deration the sum of 5,700,0001., the qxpenie of 'maintaining
the army, and 1,250,000/. for the ordnance—it would make
gfivelt millionsfor the army expenditure, exclusive of the yeo-
manry and militia. The question, then, is, can any wee.,
age be proposed by which the civil tep,artinents' of: ilia
AMY find grdtlaceo ca,ri be consolidated, in 4rd4 to save ex-
posA• tie, had no beiitatiim'insaing that the services could
be so consolidated, as they acted 'so constantly together, and
it was a matter of suspicion to him that military men, from
their experience in the public service, and their knowledge of
the services in other countries, should ba so long separated.

It was cisite impossible to carry on this expenditure without ob.
serving economy—that strict attention to economy, unless
some sup, rrior control were exercised over it.—( Filen-, hear. )
Such sentTments so unanimously pervaded the Committee up
stairs, that they cat-le to the resolution that there was a great
increase of the public expenditure, because no control existed
to check the heads of the respective departments. Each en-
deavoured to keep up his own establishment, and gra-
duaally raised them, and continued them in spite of the
authority they ought to have been regulated by.----( Hear.)
If one opinion was more predominant than another in that Com-
mitree amongst naval officers it was this, that the Treasury only
ought to do the controlling and superior power to which all the
others should be subordinate, and he would say, as he saw the
Hon. Baronet abont to leave the House. —[ Sir J. Graham was
proceeding towards the door of the House, but on hearing this
remark he took his seat, which occasioned much laughing]—he
would say it because it was a credit to the Right HMI. Baronet,
for no sooner did he enter upon the department to which he was
appointed than he directed his attention to this subject and
concentrated the whole under the authority of the Admiralty
Board, by which a reduction took place, a reduction of no
less than 1,300,0001. was effected in the actual expenditure,
though it should be admitted that a larger portion was owing
to the reduction of stores. The Hon. Baronet acted upon his
own responsibility, and had effected his object—that of a re-
duction of expenditure and a greater efficiency of the estab-
lishment--and for this he deserved credit. If, therefore, there
was so large a reduction as one-fourth in that department, he was
sufficiently justified in advancing the statements he now made.
Whether all the benefits would flow from the measure he pro-
posed which he expected might be a question, for he had been
often told that he was too sanguine; but he was certain that
no harm could ensue from arguing. Before he touched upon
the Ordnance question, he would glance at the army. It ap-
peared that now there was a pactice in existence, compared
with what was obtained in the present times—then the Secre-
tary at War was the officer who was responsible to that House.
as well as the one who really ought to be ; but since the times
of the Duke of York, whose long lease of office gave him the
the oppartunity of consolidating all the power—(a laugh)--
so that now all the power was in the offich of the Comman-
der-in-Chief, while the Secretory at War, who was responsible,
had no power. He would like to hear what his Hon. Friend's
the Members for Dundee, Coventry, and Nottingham had to
say upon the subject. He considered the office of Commander-
-in-Chief was opposed to all changes, which was the reason
given for not effecting the recommendations of the Committee.
The Commander-in-Chief performed the duties in a great
degree of the Secretary at War. It was the opinion of same
of the best officers that the Commander-in-Chief should be
placed in the same situation as the Admiral of the Fleet, and
should act under the responsibility of an officer en-
trusted by that House. He did not believe that they
could ever effect those plans of economy and retrenchment
which the county called for. Having stated this much, he
would mention to the House the object of his motion.
It was to refer the Estimates of the Army and Ord-
nance to a Committee up stairs—( Hear)—which should
be constituted similarly to the Finance Committee, to enquire
and bring before them the best evidence as to the possibility of
making the alteration proposed. Tile service of the ordnanc e wss
divided into two departments—the Military and the
Stores—and during the last year a third had been
added, namely the Commisserat department.—( Hear. )
It appeared to him, from all that had been stated, that it'
the present Board of Ordnance was entirely redLc
and broken up, and the whole of the establishment placed
under two heads, a saving of several hundred thousand
pounds would be effected. If the Artillery, Engineers,
and the Pay Office of the Army were placed (as it ought
to be, and was in every other country, under the Commander-
in-Chief, great good would be effected.--( Hear, hear. )
There would then remain nothing but the Store department,
would remain for superintendence, and a Beard of Superintend-
ence might be formed without expense. He would now detail
to the House what the duties of Paymaster of the Army were.
All monies were issued through the Secretary at War, by
means of his warrant. He therefore complained that the
country was pnt to an average annual expense of 25,000/.
and this year it amounted to 29,000/., for no purpose whatever.
and from which the county derived no kind of benefit.
The half-pay was paid by checks, but it was so mixed
up in the agents, the Banks, and the Paymaster-Gene.:al
This was a most roundabout' and most inconvenient
mode of proceeding, and very injurious to public service.
He complained that the payments made to the public by
Greenwood and Co. were at a charge of -1,- per cent. and that
firm made a sum of 19,000/. annually by merely cashing these
warrants, and paying a portion of them.

,xIC;
• C
471 •4'./d
\-7 / ./ •-•C.1.0
yet it might enquire into it, and he hoped th, iltinotpiariu.
would persevere in his motion, in order to /tr--ivfiether/aldi 4(4,10.
Committee had acted or not on precedent in 'Comtng 49 3S5v
decision. „
Sir E. KN AT CHB UL L said, after what had ailkaftvie
Speaker, he should be sorry to offer any opinion upon this sub.) t ;
but it appeared to him that the curse which had been pursued
by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, if not an imputation, cer-
tainly savoured of a disrespect towards the Committee; at the
same time he considered that, .the course adopted by the
Committee was rather an unusual and irregular one.
Colonel E VANS considered that the Committee, in refer.
ring the matter back to the House, had committed a grave and
serious injustice, and that they ought to have proceeded with
the inquiry for which they had been appointed.
Mr. HUME admitted that every inquiry argued a doubt
to a certain extent, but it appeared to him to be a
matter of the greatest importance that such inquiries
should not only take place, but be conducted accordin,, to the
Act which provided that every. Select Committee should dispose
of the questions before it by a majority of votes, which it
appeared had not been done in this instance. He spoke
without having the authority of the Minutes of the
House before him, though he did not believe that those
Minutes would alter his view of the case.
Mr. W YNN contended that the Committee were not res-
ponsible to this House for their proceedings, any more than
any other Court. They were bound by no resolution what-
ever to any particular opinion, and the only question
was, whether the report furnished by them were justified by
the nature of the evidence before them.—( Hear, hear.)
In the case of the Middlesex petition, to which the Ho-
nourable Member had alluded, the petitioner was rated
on the ground of the return, leaving it to the Member
to petition on the merits of the election.—(Hear, hear.)
This was as he conceived not a question on which
the House could interfere ; it was a question of law,
which was not for their decision, but for the decisicn
of other authorities. The only course which he thought
the Honourable Member was entitled to pursue, was to
move for leave to bring in a bill to limit the power of future
Committees. This was established by precedents in the case
of Middlesex and Caernarvon, and a power would then be
given to the petitioners to inquire into its merits, within
fourteen days of the date of notice.—( Hear, hear.)
He thought it would be highly improper to interfere with the
decision to which the Committee had come, and although
mistakes might be sometimes made, it would bo a minor evil to
acquiesce in these decisions.
Mr. FRE S H FIE L D objected to the doctrine laid down
by the Hon. Member for Middlesex as being by far too exten-
sive in its principle. There were many cases in which such a
proceeding would be most unjust and erroneous. —( Hear.)
Mr. AG LIONB Y would beg to call the attention of the
Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lan-
caster to the regulations by which Committees of this nature
were guided.—( Hear.) "The Honourable Member here read
an extract showing that the decision of the Committee should
be final between the parties, except in certain cases which
were specified, and in which cases the Committee had
a clear and undoubted right to send a specific resolution
to that House. The present was one of those cases, and.
it was not their business to discuss the merits of tire
question. The exception was, that "if any such Select Corn.
mittee shall come to any other resolution than those above ,
specified, they shall report the same to the House, and at same
time, the Chairman shall inform the House of such determina-
tion." It then proceeded to set forth, that " the House may
concur or disagree in such resolution, and make such
order thereon, as shall to it seem proper." It appeared to Una
that the present case came clearly within that rule.
After a few words from Mr. WYNN,
Mr. S C A RL E TT declared, that after an Election Committee
had made a report—that report must be, final, or the Act of
Parliament upon the subject must be rtpealed.—( Hear.)
By the words of the Act,
Committee, who had only to trytl:l7ie killing of an election
question of whether the
Member or the petitionerwat 'Cite duly elected Member; in tb is
ease they had seated the petitioner, and by the words
of the Act that was final, and the House was pre.
eluded from "-gain opening it.
The aPEAKER then put the question which was agreed to
w.:wout a division.

BOROUGH OF LIECESTER.
Mr. G I SBORNE rose, pursuant to notice, to move the
consideration of the petition for leave to rectify a lnistake in the
name of a proposed surety in the case of the Leicester boro'
election. The question was whether the House would permit
what he thought the law would allow it to do, namely, to en-
large the time for giving in the names of the proposed sureties.
He had in his hand the affidavit of Thomas Parkes, the peti-
tioner, who stated that Samuel S. Stokes was competent and
willing to be a security; that on the day after the House granted
the enlarged time, he received a letter, stating that Stokes's
name was Thomas andnot Sainnel. The Act of Parliament states
that under the circumstances the House has power to change
the names of sureties. The provision he wished to call.
the attention of the Houge to was, that not permitting
enlargement of time more than once, or beyond thirty
days, and that no surety Can be more than once changed.
They merely requested the: House to allow them to correct a
clerical inadvertence into which the agent had fallen,
in giving the name of Samuel instead of Thomas, and this,
he thought, did not fall within the cases in which the House.
had, by Act of Parliament, forbidden them to interfere.
No injustice would be done by the House in granting the priver
of the petition. There having been plenty of time to i,;iquire
into the sufficiency of .Thos. Stokes, he trusted the House
would not deprive the petitioner of his rights for a cle:cioal error ;
he would therefore 'novel that Mr. Parkes shoub44 be called in.
Mr. WYNN maintained, on the authority of the Act, that
the House could not allow a change of the ';iame of the surety,
as was proposed in this case.
Mr. WARBURTON supported tlae motion.
Mr. LAW took the same view of the case as the Right
Hon. Member for Montgomeryshire, and, pointing out the
statuable intendment of the t-,rm name," contended that the
prayer of the petition soul not be acceded to.
Sir M. W. RIDLE`; maintained that the provisions of the
Act would not be at ..111 violated by altering the Christian name,
especially when could be shown that the mistake was at the
utmost but a "...lierical error.
Mr. G P...0T E took the same view of the Act of Parliament
as the Hon. Baronet the Member for Newcastle.
dlr. GOUL B URN objected to the reception of the petition.
After a few words from Mr. GISBORNE in reply, the
Ilouse divided, when there appeared—
For the motion 147
Against it lOl
_ . .

Majority .. 43
Mr. Parkes was then called to the Bar, and, in answer to
questions from Mr. GISBORNE, verified the allegations of
his petition.
On the question being put from the Chair, that the peti-
tioners in the petition from the borough of Leicester be al-
lowed to correct a clerical error.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR although he had voted for the pre,
vious motion to serve the purposes of justice, should vote
against the present.
Sir R. PEEL thought the question lay in a very small
compass. If they passed laws it was their duty as much as
any of the other subjects of the State to conform to them.
There was a clear enactment, and they were deprived of all
discretion.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY differed from the Right Hon. Bart.
and regretted that recent circumstances had made the High
Court of Parliament as much a place of appeal for petty dis-
putes as the Bail Court, and the Courts of judicature in West-
minster Hall.

Sir F. POLLOCK thought the terms of the enactment
precluded the House from interfering, and that it was not in
a condition to grant the request. He appealed to the Speaker
if such indulgences could be given.—( Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER was perfectly ready to obey the House
if the House were desirous for the expression of his opinion,
which he could only give as any other individual Member of
Parliament—( Hear, hear)—the construction of the Act being
left for the House to decide upon. He had, finding his expe-
rience deficient, consulted such authorities as were most
likely to afford him information, and on such appeal had
found no precedent to authorise the required indulgence.
After a few words from Lord Sandon, Lord J. Russell, Mr.
Warburton, Mr. Rolfe, Lord F. Egerton, and Mr. Herries,
amid loud cries of Question, the House again divided, when
there appeared—
For the motion
Against it...
Majority

CORK COUNTY) ELECTION.
Mr. LEFR 0 Y presented a petition from the London agent
of the petitioners in the case of the Cork county election.
praying that the name of Henry might be substituted for that
of William in the instance of one of the securities to this peti-
tion. The petition was accompanied by an affidavit, made by
the Cork agents, Messrs. Foote and Fitzsiinon, stating the
error to be purely clerical. He concluded by moving that the
petitioners, John Jackson and James Cummins be called to
the bar of the House.

The motion was agreed to, and the witness called in, after
which,

Mr. LE FRO Y moved, therefore, for permission to correct
the clerical error, and to extend the time of trying the petition
ten days longer than the period already fixed.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR was of opinion that the subject
should be dropped altogether, and he would put it to the At-
torney-General whether there was any parity in point of
strength between the cases of that and the former petition from
Leicester.

Mr. C. WYNN—The Right Hon. Gentleman should not
oppose the motion on the ground that it had been settled, as
far as the principle went, by the previous decision of the House.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY should pursue his old course, and
look at the equity of the case—( A laugh)—and give the
Hon. Member the benefit of his vote, and he trusted that the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would afford the benefit of his
assistance, and give a vote which would spring from a coinci-
dence between advice and precept.—('Hear. )
Lord SANDON thought that the Hon. Member who bad
just sat down was not exactly the sort of Gentleman who was
entitled to read the House a lecture upon equity and cowls.
tency. Acting on the principle of equity, and with a view to
do justice to both parties, he should feel no difficulty in ac-
ceding to the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought there could not
be the slightest doubt that the House had the power of acced-
ing to the present motion, though there had been a doubt in
the preceding case.
An HoN. MEMBER, whose name could not be heard in the
Gallery, maintained that the truth lay in the converse of the
Hon. Attorney-General's proposition.
The SPEAKER here addressed a fsw words to the Hon.
Member, which were inaudible in the Gallery.
Mr. SHAW could rot conceive that the case was parallel
to that which had been last decided.
Mr. 0' CONN E LL would vote for this motion if it ma

~'
'r~.:%'