The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-07 00:00:00

TIIE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 7, 1835

We are delighted to have an opportunity of con-
gratulating the people of Ireland upon the zeal wi6
which a large body of their representatives have united
together, in order to devise, and carry into operation,
some measure which shall have the effect of perma-
nently relieving the distress of the working population
of that country. For the more effectual and speedy
furtherance of this laudable and patriotic object, seve-
ral meetings have been recently held, attended princi-
pally by Irish Members of the House of Commons, at
which the evils that afflict Ireland have been freely
discussed, and every proposal heard, which had for its
object the improvement of its agricultural, commercial,
and moral condition. Of these meetings, by far the
most important was held at the Exchequer Coffee.
house, Westminster, on Saturday last, at which Mr.
O'CONNELL, the Member for Dublin, presided as
Chairman. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman made
one of the best speeches on that occasion which he
ever delivered on the real grievances of his native
country. We speak here of the substance of this
speech, and not of the mode of its delivery, its
brilliancy, or its length. For once he confined him-
self to the subject of Ireland's remediable wrongs
—for once he allowed himself to be bounded by the
limits of possible redress. This was a safe as
well as a judicious course. Mr. O'CONNELL stated
that the distress of the Irish poor was occasioned by
want of employment, and that the only way to proride
such employment, and to render it permanent at the same
time, would be by establishing public works throughout
the island—improving the navigation of the Shannon--
cutting canals, so as to effect a direct communication
among the several lakes in the province of Connaught--
and laving branches of rail-roads, so as to afford facilities
of extending commercial industry to all the large towns
and manufacturing districts in the Kingdom. The
readers of this Journal will hardly require to be re-
minded that the opinions here expressed by Air.
O'CONNEML, have had our best support when we
little expected to be assisted in maintaining them by
such a pqwerful advocate. For years have we been
labouring to impress every successive Government with
a conviction that the great evil of Ireland was want o

employment for her people—that such employment
could only be secured by the establishment of a whole-
some system of Poor Laws—and that the self-interest
of the Irish landed aristocracy and gentry would dic-
tate to them that no employment would be remune-
rative, but such as would improve the commerce of the
country..

The navigation of the Shannon from Limerick to
:a source is the first labour that demands the consi-
deration of the Irish Board of Works. The expense
would certainly be very great, the more especially as it
would be of the utmost importance to open a commu-
nication, by a large canal, between Lake Allen, where
the river first begins to be navigable, and Lough Erne,
a few miles to the West of Florence Court, the seat of
the Earl of Enniskillen. By means of this canal, and
another for the distance of three-miles near Ballyshan-
non, the navigation of the Shannon would extend
from sea to sea—from Limerick in the south to
Ballyshannon on the north-west coast of Ireland,—and
so making Enniskillen one of the great emporiums of
trade in the North. This is a suggestion which we
have never heard made ; but we are convinced nothing
could be offered for the improvement of the country
more practicable, and at the same time offering so
many excellent advantages in every point of view. A
direct communication between Enniskillen and Ath-
lone would be followed by the happiest consequences ;
and, if we are not much mistaken, the distance from
Lake Allen, the source of the Shannon, to Belcoo,
the southern extremity of Lough Erne, is only about
six or eight miles. May the world not laugh at the
commercial enterprise of a people which allows such a
paltry obstacle as this to arrest the progress of Irish
improvement ?
The next step to be taken is to effect a direct water
communication between Dublin and Galway, by means
of a canal wide enough for the double navigation of
small steam-boats. This work has been begun on a
miniature scale, and only requires to be extended
and improved to effect the greatest good for the
country. The canal from Dublin to Maryborough
will serve for a commencement, as it is in a
straight line for the point to which we propose to
have it carried. By allowing the canal to communi-
cate with the larger lakes, the trouble of maintaining
an artificial supply of water, by means of gates, will be
avoided, and encouragement will be given for the
building of villages, and the improvement of the lands
around the coasts.
The completion of these works will pave the way
for others much more arduous. Once Ireland conies
to taste the sweets of her own industry, we have no fear
of her sinking into a state of apathetic wretchedness.
Railways will follow as a matter of course—manufac-
tories will be established—mines will be opened and
worked—and towns will be built, where nuthi)3g
is to he found out desolation, or the rude ta,:cs of
squalid mendicancy. But how is all' this to be clonee.

the Lincoln fens ; quaff the rich wines of the combi-
nation rooms at Cambridge ; and drowsily pace the
cloisters of the Northern Cathedrals. This it is
that makes them so staunch to the cause of Con-
servatism. Under Sir ROBERT PEEL they think
that the Church might be so reformed as to square
with their own personal interests, while at the same
time it enabled them to gain credit with the country
for liberality ; but under Lord MELBOURNE they have
no such hope. They see that he is determined to
make root-and-branch work with all ecclesiastical
abuses ; hence they are resolved to take time by the
forelock, and get up a handsome opposition against
them. The cawing of the rooks in a rookery is a sure
prognostic of an approaching storm ; and the cawing of
the parsons at Cambridge, is as sure a proof that the
vials of Tory wrath are about to be let loose in all their
fury against Ministers. The present gathering is, in
fact, the black speck in the political horizon which
denotes the coming hurricane. Though it have no
immediate connection with it, yet we cannot but look
on it, as a sort of type, or foreshadowing of the
treatment which the Municipal Bill will meet with, in
the House of Lords. Clerical and lay Corporations
are not so vastly dissimilar, as that one shall not take a
lively interest in the fate of the other. We advise the
Reformers, therefore, to be, one and all, on theirguard,
for we can assure them that the most subtle and active
agents are at work against them ; and that it is by no
means improbable that they may be called on, ere a
month has elapsed, to act over again the part they
played when the House of Lords threw out the Re-
form Bill S There are many alarming reports abroad
on this subject, which would not perhaps be so rife,
did certain subordinate intriguers know how to keep
their own secret. Reformers, then, we repeat, be on
your guard. Look to the Registration. Keep up your
Associations more zealously than ever. Have your
Committees in readiness to act at a moment's notice
or, rely on it, the Tories will steal a march, and we
fear a successful one, on you. This, at least, we can
assure you—and let the fact have a proper effect on
your minds—Conservative money is flying in all
directions. The squad know they are playing their
last stake, and they are playing it as desperately now
(though with greater hopes of a successful result) as
they did during the early struggles for the Refonn
Bill.

or rather how is it to be begun ? For once set the
machine in motion and it will revolve by its own power.
Mr. O'CONNELL says by a public grant, which Ire-
land has the same right to expect as England and
Scotland. We agree with Mr. O'CONNELL that Ire-
land's right is the same under similar circumstances—
but unquestionably not otherwise. Now, when Par-
liamentary grants were first made to the Board
of Public Works in England and Scotland,
to enable them to carry on extensive improve.
merits, the landed aristocracy of these countries
were bound to provide employment for the poor, and
undertook these works in order to promote the national
prosperity. They did not call for grants for the mere
object of supporting labourers, and so ridding their
estates of the burthen of Poor's Rates. They were
influenced by nobler, and more patriotic motives.
They freely undertook the support of the poor ; and
when their means was insufficient to enable them to
I carry on expensive public works at their own
charge—for the wages of the labourers was often
made up out of the rates—they asked and obtained
Parliamentary aid to assist them in completing
great national improvements. Let the Irish landed
Aristocracy follow their example in the first instance,
and Parliament will lend an attentive ear to their peti-
tion for the assistance of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER. A Poor Law must precede all other
schemes of Irish improvement. To make Parliamen-
tary grants, before the Government has made it the in-
terest of the landed gentry of Ireland to labour night
and day for the improvement of the condition of the
poor—which a Poor Law unquestionably will dO—
would be neither more nor less than to offer a premium
for the continuance of Irish jobbing. So granted,
were it ten millions sterling, the money would be swal-
lowed up by the cormorants of the Castle, nor would
the starving idle poor of Ireland be one sixpence the
better for it.

Taken in conjunction with the present Irish Tithe
Bill, a Bill for the Establishment of Poor Laws, and a
Bill for carrying on the Public Works recommended
above, would effect the regeneration of one of the fairest
portions of the British Empire. The ignorance and
wretchedness of the Irish poor, is the effect of a want
of remunerating labour—and the cause of the crime
which casts a stain upon the national character. To
the Government we have always said,—lf you would
improve the moral and physical condition of the peo-
ple of Ireland, establish Poor Laws, which will oblige
the rich absentees to dwell upon their estates, and pro-
'vide employment for their poor tenantry. Remove
likewise whatever tends to promote religious hatred and
sectarian violence.

We have received the whole of the Paris Papers o.
.Saturday. They bring no intelligence of the slightest
general importance, with the exception of the follow-
ing brief extract :

We believe we may arm that an invitation has been sent
by Marshal Maison to the Prefect of the Seine, not to cause
his notice to be placarded, at the; same time that the Military
Intendant received orders to defer the enrolments for the fo.
reign legion.

We have received German Papers of the latest
dates. The only advices they bring is a copy of an Ad-
dress from the Nobles of the Lombardo-Venetian terri-
tory to the Emperor of AUSTRIA, on his accession to
the Imperial Throne, with his MAJESTY'S gracious
answer. As neither the address nor the answer have
any political tendency, we shall dispense with their in-
sntion. The reciprocal flatteries of Emperors and
courtiers may be passed over in silence in the present
state of our own affairs.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT,
THIS DAY, TUESDAY, JULY 7.

110 USE OF (P) (INS.
The SPEAKER, in consequence of the resolutions adopted in
the course of last week, took the Chair to-day at twelve
o'clock. There were not 20 Members in the House when the
Speaker commenced counting ' • a number of Members, how-
ever, soon arrived and made a House.

DUNDEE WATER WORKS BILL.
On the motion of Mr. SAUNDERSON, the Committee
upon this Bill obtained leave to sit during the morning sittings
of the House.

STEAMERS ON THE THAMES.
Alderman WOOD gave notice that he would on an early
day move for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation
of steam-vessels on the river Thames.
GLASGOW WATER WORKS BILL.
On the motion of Mr. WALLACE, the Committee on
this Bill obtained leave to sit during the morning sittings of
the House.

GRAHAM'S ESTATE BILL.
On the motion of Colonel LYGON, this Bill was read a
second time, and ordered to be committed.
COUNTY CORONERS' BILL.
Mr. CRIPPS moved that the Order of the day be read fur
the House resolving itself into Committee upon this Bill, and
the House accordingly resolved itself into Committee, Mr.
J. B. EARL in the chair.
The Preamble having been postponed, the first four clauses
were agreed to without observation. On the fifth clause
being put from the Chair,
Captain CURTEIS rose to object to it. His objections
to it were two-fold. In the first place because it proposed
to pay the Coroners out of the county rates, and in the next
place because he considered that the sum proposed to be paid
(for mileage we believe) was too large. It was for these
reasons that the Bill was thrown out by the House of Lords.
Mr. CRIPPS wished to correct the Hon. Member in one
particular. The Hon. Member said that the Bill was thrown
out by the House of Lords in consequence of the payment to
the Coroners. Now this was not the case. The fact was,
that the House of Lords had passed this clause, but the Bill
was subsequently thrown out by their Lordships, as every
body must recollect, in consequence of objections which their
Lordships entertained to allowing the Coroner's Courts to be
open to the public.—( Hear, hear.) As to the amount charged
for mileage in this Bill, it would be recollected that the Com-
mittee had divided upon this part of the clause last year, and
decided by a considerable majority that the amount charged
was very reasonable.
Mr. PEA SE (we believe) if he recollected rightly the
Committee divided three times on the subject, and at length
decided that a shilling a mile was sufficient.
Mr. CRIPPS differed in his recollection from the Hon.
Gentleman ; according to his recollection the House decided
in favour of the Is. 6d. mileage.
Mr. PO ULTE R hoped the House would agree to the
allowance of 18d. a mile for travelling expenses.
Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND believed that Coroners
were allowed 9d. each way by the Act of George the Second,
and although the Court of King's Bench had decided that they
were only entitled to 9d. per mile one way, they still con-
tinued to receive 9d. per mile each way. The object of the
present Bill was merely to secure that allowance to them.
When it was recollected that they were only allowed 1/. for
every inquest, and that they were obliged to issue summonses,
and go to a good deal of incidental expense, he thought the
House would not consider 18d. a mile too much.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN regretted that some provisions
were not introduced for dividing the counties into districts, as
in some cases there were districts twenty miles in extent, and
containing a population of several thousand inhabitants, with-
out a Coroner.
Mr. POTTER proposed as an amendment, that ls.. per
mile should be the rate allowed.
Mr. FOX MA ULE thought they should pay some atten-
tion to the respectability of the office, which was one of very
great importance. He should vote for the 18d. per mile.
Mr. PEASE would also vote for the allowance of 18d.
After a few words from Mr. CAYLEY and Major BEAUCLERK,
who supported the original proposition—
Mr. HOWARD suggested that the Hon. Member for Wi_
gan had better withdraw his amendment.
Mr. POTTER seeing the sense of the Committee was
against him, would withdraw his amendment.
The Clause, as also Clauaes 6 and 7, were then agreed to.
On the Bth Clause being put from the Chair,
Mr. CRIPPS rose to support it. He was quite aware that
there were great objections to this clause, on the ground of
its being the means of depriving a number of persons of their
votes for the office of Coroner. In supporting this clause he
did not wish to be understood that he intended to oppose him-
self to the wishes of the House. If the House was of opi-
nion that the clause should not be in the Bill, he would wil-
lingly withdraw it, if it were satisfied that no registration was
necessary for the purpose of ascertaining the qualification of
voters.
Mr. J. JERVlS—Although he admired the principle of
the Bill, he would sooner abandon it altogether, than
have the present clause inserted in it.—(Hear, hear.)
It would altogether abrogate the common law right of voting
for Coroner, and substitute the Parliamentary one for it, but the
Hon. Member violated the common law right by substituting
the Parliamentary one, and he violated the Parliamentary one
by allowing peers to vote. It would most seriously alter the
law without the slightest necessity for it, or it having been
sheen that any difficulty had been found from the exercise of
the law as it stood. He woula rote against it.
Sir J. WROTTESLE Y trusted the Hon. Gentleman
would persevere in the clause, which in his opinion was one of
the best in the Bill.
Mr. PEASE agreed with the Hon. Member for Chester
(Mr. Jervis) that the clause as it stood was going to take
away an important right without any shew of reason or ne-
cessity, or even an attempt to shew that it had ever been
abused. He would vote against it.
Mr. PALMER thought that when the counties were di-
vided, as they would he by this Bill, the evil, if it was one,
would be greatly reduced, and lie trusted the Hon. Geetle-
rnan (Mr. Crippa) would give up tie clause.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG was fully persuaded that the parties
interested did net care one farthing for the right, and
he did not think that it was at all conducive to the due
administration of justice to have such a large constituency.
He was.
astonished to hear those who had done so much good
in putting. an end to those scenes which used to be seen at
county elections for Members of Parliament, now anxious to
keep up these same scenes for fifteen days upon the election of
Coroner.

of voting, on the contrary, all the rights. which they at Pr
possessed would remain to them. He must say that althea,
he did not disapprove that those who. had a right to vote
Knights of the Shire, should also have a right to vote f°l
roner, .he objected to the 101. householders being kept outt
Mr. JERVIS thought that all the freeholders of the
roughs ought to be entitled to vote for the Coroners o',
county.
Lord G. SOMERSET—The amendment would hovel
effect. It will leave those who have a right to vote fort
borough a right to vote for the County Coroners.
Mr. CRIPPS had some difficulty in knowing how ts:)
If the House thought that the amendment would take a j
the difficulty, 'he would not stand in the way. There el
difficulty in getting rid of those voters who bad no ve°l
all.—( A laugh.) Ile meant, who had not the shadow
t!I
right to vote. He agreed with the Hon. Member tha'
possible, it was desirable to prevent all mob influence. e
Mr. WARBURTON was glad to find that the Hon. )
ber by whom the Bill had been introduced had himself
the difficulty of the case. Their object should be to att)
to the rights of the voters, and at the same time to lima
number of days for polling. If it was limited to one cleYl•
feared that tumult alone would carry the election. Ile
lieved the time was gone by when he should have Pot;
in the third clause that the voting should take place 'n)
rishes, because if they wished to prevent tumult, they 5o
subdivide the polling places. He would move, on the el
ing up of the report, that the churchwardens do takei
votes in the several parishes, and that would tend very dpi
to diminish the expense of elections.
Sir JOHN HANDIER (we believe) was convinced that?
limitation of the polling to one day would be injuriouso
the town of Shrewsbury', at the last election for a Cor
the unsuccessful candidate had plenty of votes, but cotn%i
bring them up to the poll. Although the salary was onlYo
per annum, it cost each of the candidates between far
five hundred pounds.
Mr. HOWARD thought the Coroners would be xnee-),!cii
independent, if the voting took place in parishes. ltwe
throw the election into the hands of the landed pro Pet,
and totally destroy all freedom of election.
Mr. P. SCROPE was desirous that there should be
constituency as could be registered. He hoped the
Member fur Cirencester would withdraw his dowse, Refit
the Committee would accede to it.
Mr. BAINES regretted that the Hon. Member had;
adopted, as the principle of his Bill, the principle- of elec.
that had so long existed. He would have found that it ,
have answered all his purposes. The polling places woul°,
so much crowded as was supposed, as the cortnties
divided into districts. He would not give the franchise
persons who did not at present possess it; and he though'r•
serious objection existed to taking the franchise as it at F
sent stood. He objected to the 501. tenants-at-will balll .
vote, as at elections for Members of Parliament, where
were seen coming up to the poll like so many herds. If
system was persevered in, the elections would be carriedo
the great landed proprietors, and not by those in whey
power should be vested.—( Question, question.)
The CHAIRMAN having read the clause and the
tio amenclre,e,
After sonic observans from Lord G. SOMEKSP'
which were inaudible—
The CHAIRMAN again put the clause.
Mr. •WA RB URTON thought that part of the clause i;
respect to excluding Peers of the Realm from voting, e'4°.
be struck out.
An Hos. MEMBER wished to know whether residence's
essential?
Mr. HARDY said it was.
Mr. CRIPPS observed that, previous to the
questionbet,'
put, he had stated to the Committee that if they objected 6
the original clause, he had drawn up another which he thoug,
would obviate the difficulty—that clause was to the effect od
all persons duly qualified to vote, should have been in eg
possession of lands and tenements in respect of which too
were qualified, or should have been in possession of the rep
and profits for six months previous to the election. a
Mr. WARBURTON moved to omit the provision Ty"'
recoonized the right of Peers to vote.

'ter a conversation across the table between several Ka
Gentlemen,
Mr. BAINE S said he could see many reasons why a r
re
should not vote for a Member of Parliament, but none to
vent him from voting for a Coroner.
Mr. WARBURTON said if they had now the right, thel)
why give it them by the Bill ?
Mr. JOHN JERVIS objected to the clause, because 60
cording to it, no county could be again divided without 811
Act of Parliament.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY believed the clause was pasiie
and, therefore, they must wait for the Report before t
could introduce any other amendment.
tesJ.
Mr. CRIPPS said he was very willing and happy to ateee,
to any suggestion, but he could not but complain that obh„,
tions should now be started against clauses which had bs"
before unanimously agreed to.
Mr. HARDY explained.
Clause 8, as amended, was then agreed to.
Clauses 9 and 10 were agreed to without amendment.
On Clause 11 being read,
Mr. WARBURTON believed that this clause bad boo
introduced in consequence of a resolution the House eant,oo
two Sessions ago. There was nothing in this clause Iv%,
he objected to,_ until they came towards the close of the clatloi
Power was there given to the Crown "to order all Pers°o6
to retire from the said Court, when, in the judgment of
said Coroner, the ends of public justice require thci,l3o
elusion of such persons from the same Court."
power was subject to the approbation of the Lord ibe
Justice of the King's Bench, or the Secretary for
„,
Home Department ; but this restriction did not r,
pear to him to be sufficient, It appeared that very Ire,
quently in those cases, when the Court ought to be op",
endeavours were made to exclude the public.--(Hear, heapilf
He would not allude to any other instances than that .°
Manchester at the time of the unfortunate destruction of I'o
there, and the late riot at Wolverhampton ; for considering tbt
investigation, though there was no loss of life, it was ye')
much in the nature of a Coroner's In ;uest.—(Hear, heat
It was clearly a case of great excitation on the part
on'
the people. The troops were called out, and there ;,.'t
contradictory evidence on both sides, and in order to quiet
the public mind, therefore it was very important that o,_'e
h
Court should be open during the progress of the investigf
tion. Yet the individual deputed to take the examination, 1„
it had been left to his own judgment, would have excluded tb;
public, and the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Hofer
Department, was willing to confirm the decision of the oftiee
so deputed, unless that House had interfered with its autliorl
and induced the Noble Lord to leave the Court open. The
judgment of the officer himself, or of the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, was not therefore sedficieet,
and he was desirous to limit the exclusion of the pub-
lic to particular cases, in which the ends of justice
would be defeated, if the public were not exe/udaw
He would therefore propose as an amendment, s
after the words " public justice," the following words be by
sertecl, " where the ends of public justice might be defeated by
the escape of an accused party or of a material witness in case
the Court was allowed to be open."
The amendment having been read,
Mr. PO UL TE R. suggested that after the words, ie in thei
judgment of the Coroner," the words, " and the jury," sbonla
be introduced, as it would be important to have their approba-
tion in case of the public being excluded.
Mr. CRIPPS could not consent to the amendment of the
Hon. Member for Bridport. The committee was aware that
the House of Commons was in favour of an open Court, gold
the other House in favour of a close Court; and in consequence
of this difficulty the Learned Attorney-General had framed
the clause as it now stood, and which had afterwards received
the sanction of the Noble Lord the late Lord Chancellor.
Both these Learned Gentlemen had said that there could be
no possible objection to this clause ; and, as it had received
their sanction, he (Mr. Cripps) would not presume to alter it.
Mr. M'LEAN objected to the introduction of the words
" and the Jury," as it might give rise to unseemly collisions
between the Coroner and the Jury. The Coroner was the pre-
siding officer, and to his decision he should be willing to leave
the matter.
Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY thought it would give the
public additional protection if the approbation of the Jury was
necessary before turning it into a close Court. He thought
the amendment would be satisfactory to the House.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN thought that Juries who were
casually summoned, and knew nothing about the case, would be
very incompetent persons to decide upon the impropriety or
fitness of excluding the public.
Mr. M'LEAN asked the Hon. Member for Shaftesbury/
how he meant to manage in case there was a difference of opi- •
nion between the Coroner and the Jury ? The Coroner might
wish to close the Court, and the Jury might wish to have
it open?
Mr. POULTER—Probably the Jury would be right.---
(Hear, and a laugh.)
pending
weipdneel Mr.
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sit
tuhratfftD
,otrbitutlghtY Coroner'shi
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smithsvhoamuescfieGhatn
Grand
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roner of whether the public should be excluded or not.
All the mischief which they wished to avoid might
be done if the Coroner was obliged publicly to state to the
Jury his reasons for wishing to exclude the public, and, there-
fore, he was willing to leave the matter to the discretion of
the Coroner. His acts would always take place in the pre-
sence of twelve witnesses, who would be afterwards enabled to
give their opinions to the public (as there was nothing to
prevent their doing so), in condemnation of the conduct of the
Coroner, if they thought he had improperly excluded the public.
He had known instances where criminals had escaped for the
want of the inquiry being kept secret. He remembered not
long ago, a case of a most cruel murder, where the person who
had actually committed it, 'because he was present at the time
the enquiry before the Coroner took place, and finding the evi-
dence likely to implicate him, took himself away and never was
heard of afterwards. If on that occasion there had been a close
Court, the probability was, that the criminal would have been
brought to justice. Under these circumstances, he trusted
the Hon. Members for Bridport and Shaftesbury would with-
draw their amendments. -
Sir E. WILMOT was in favour of having the Coroner's
Court an ok.en one.
Mr. J. .114., RVIS thought that all ancient practice showed
that the Court of the Coroner ought to be open, reserving,
to the Coroner the power to dismiss from the town all those'
who acted against decorum
•
Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought the Coroner's Court ought
to be a close Court, as it bore the most strict analogy to the
Grand Jury. He was decidedly of opinion that if the Co.. , ;
rover's Court was allowed to be open the ends of justice
be ci.-2wated.
•,
Sir G. ST RICKLAND said, as an Euglishulan, he was