The Sun.
London, England, 1866-07-17 00:00:00

QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY IN IRELAND.

Sir R. PEEL called attention to the circumstances under
which a new or supplemental charter had been granted to
the Queen's University in Ireland, and complained that the
charter had received the sign manual of the Crown and
had the great seal affixed to it, in spite of an assurance
given by Mr. Gladstone early in the session that no change
should be made in the constitution of the university until
an opportunity had been afforded to the house of challeng-
ing the policy of the Government relating thereto. The
right hon. gentleman charged the late Government with
having been influenced in the course they had pursued by
a desire to conciliate the support of the Irish Roman Catho-
lic members.

Sir G. GREY held that nothing could be more clear and
unambiguous than the manner in which the intention of
the Governments both of Lord Palmerston and Lord Rus-
sell had been stated, and denied that their conduct was
liable to be construed into a violation of a pledge given by
Mr. Gladstone. What his right hon. friend said was, that
immediately after the issue of the charter a copy of it
would be laid upon the table, and that whatever was done
by the Government would bo done upon their responsi-
bility. In compliance with that understanding, on the
26th of March, a copy of a letter to tho Len Lieutenant,
explaining what the Government proposed doing, was
communicated to the house. The supplemental charter
was not a revocation of the origival:eharter, but merely an
enabling one, and he hoped the senate of the university
would see the propriety of adopting it, awl thus remove
what was admitted to be a grievance on the part of the
Itomak Catholics in Ireland.
Mr. LOWE echoed tho opinion of Sir R. Peel with re-
gard to the nature of the pledge, and suggested that the
Government should take up the question of the Queen's
University in the interests of education.
Mr. C. FORTESOUE defended the conduct of the late
Government, and in reply to the imputation cast upon
them by Sir R. Peel, that their object- had been to conci-
liate the support of the Irish members on the reform
question, stated that the supplemental charter bad received
the sign manual a week before the motion of Lord Dun-
kellin came before the house.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not impute any in-
tentional breach of faith to the Into Government, but con-
tended that the proposed charter, if accepted by the senate
of theQueon's University, Would have produced a complete
subversion of the whole system of education at that in-
stitution by doing away with the condition of residence at
the Queen's Colleges.

Mr. LAWSON (tho ex-Attorney General for Ireland)
attributed the opposition raised to the charter to the fact
that it placed Roman Catholic students upon an equality
with other subjects of her Majesty. It did not interfere
with the Queen's Colleges, but merely enabled the senate

to do as was done by the London University, confer de-
grees upon persons who presented themselves as candi-
dates for honours from other educational establishments.
It would in no respect affect the mixed system of educa-
tion, but rather operate as one of its bust preservatives
and securities.
After some observations from Mr. MAGUIRE and Sir
P. 0 'BRIEN,
Mr. GLADSTONE, in justification of the course taken
by the late Government, said Sir B. Peel was himself a
party to the introduction of the change in the constitution
of the Queen's University, having sat on the Treasury
bench as Secretary for Ireland whon Sir G. Grey, as the
organ of Lord Palmerston's Administration, specifically
announced the object they had in view, and given it his
tacit approval. Sir George stated that her Majesty's Go-
verntnent thought that object would be best effected by
an enlargement of the powers of the university, by amend-
ing its charter so as to remove the restrictions which then
prevented it from granting degrees to any students except
those who had passed through the course of instruction
in one or other of the Queen's Colleges, and thus adopting
a system analogous to that which was found to work so
satisfactorily in the University of London. Such was the
declaration made by his right hon. friend with the official
and responsible approval of Sir R. Peel.
Sir PEEL said he had not sat silent, for he intimated
to Lord Palmerston that if the Government made an alte-
ration in the constitution of the Queen's University he
could not continue to hold office.
Mr. GLADSTONE repeated that the right hon. baronet
had, as Chief Secretary, sat silent on the Treasury bench,
and upon that silence he must be held fully responsible for
the whole measure. Ever since the month of June, 1865,
the plans of the Government had been well known to the
house. The supplemental charter sufficed for the purpose
of extending the powers of the university so far as the
granting of degrees was concerned, but to place the uni-
versity upon the footing of the London University it would
be necessary that those who received degrees should be
invested with the membership attaching to those degrees,
and that could only be effected by an A. t of Parliament.
He protested against mulcting the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land of civil rights which were freely granted in England
in deference to conscientious religious convictions, and ap-
pealed to the Government to declare their views with re-
gard to the question of education in Irela d.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The right
hon. gentleman has appealed to me to express on this occa-
sion the opinions of the Government on the question be-
fore us. My complaint is that there is no question before
us. (Hear, hear.) The question before us is, whether we
should go into committee of supply, and I think it is most
inconvenient that if the opinions of the Government are
desired on so momentous a question as Irish education it
should be sought to obtain them without any notice and in
a manner so incidental as has occurred this evening. In-
deed, this discussion has originated in a misconception be-
tween the right hon. gentleman the member for Tamworth
and the late Government, respecting some engagement that
was made about the Queen's Colleges. Ido not wish at
all to enter into that argument. It is clear that her Ma-
jesty's Government entered into an undertaking in which
they have-not been, from some circumstance or other, suc-
cessful. I will agree that it is impossible to leave the ques-
tion in the position in which we find it. Wo will consider
it with candour. We will endeavour to make ourselves

acquainted with all the facis;----andl think with refer-
ence to that result it may be interesting to know what
will be the decision of the Senate in tho autumn. (Hear,
and a laugh.) As the discussion has gone on it has assumed
various phases, and has developed into a variety of aspects,
till at last, in the speech of the right hOn. gentleman the
member for South Lancashire, it has touched on the very
principles on which the whole system of Irish education is
to be founded. It is not desirable that an issue of so much
importance should be discussed in this house in a manner
so incidental, and alsolutely, practically speaking, without
notice. Ido not say this in defending the Government
from any expression of opinion upon the question. If
propar notice had been given, with the intention of elicit-
ing, even at this period of the session, and under the cir-
cumstances in which the Government finds itself, and
challenging the opinion of the Government upon the whole
question of Irish education, we should have been prepared
to meet the discussion. We should not have shrunk from
such a discussion, though I think under all the circum-
stances of the case the proceeding would not have been a
very fair one. But as the right hon. gentleman proceeded
he touched upon the *vital prinCiples on which the whole
_ _

system of Irish education is founded, and I declare myself
that, though I listened to him with that attention which
he always commands, I am quite in ignorance whether he
is in favour of or opposed to the system of mixed educa-
tion. I only say this to illustrate the inconvenience of

treating these vast questions in a manner so unexpected, so
occasional, and so desultory. We recognise fully the import-
ance of the whole question of Irish education. It will receive
from us an earnest and anxious consideration. (hear, hear.)
When the matter is brought beforo Parliament in a na-

tural manner we ehall be prepared to offer those opinions
which we think it will bo expedient for them to adopt and

to follow. But on the present occasion I think it unne-
cessary for mo to say more—(hear, hoar, and a laugh)—
except that an honourable gentleman, who rose early in
the evening in this discussion, made some inquiries of
me which it was not then convenient that I should
answer, respecting some appointments in the Irish Go-
vernment, and which it would not be respectful to the
house that I should pass over in silence. Tho hon. member
for Nottingham favoured the house with an eulogy upon
the character of Mr. Brewster. I very much agree, so far
as I Rim form an opinion, with the character of Mr. Brew-
ster as given by the hon. gentleman. I believe Mr. Brew-
ster to be a most eminent lawyer, and a temperate and
sagacious politician, and no doubt Mr. Brewster would
an
fulfil the duties of Lord Chancellor of Ireland with great
ability and satisfaction, I am only surprised that after the
glowing account of Mr. Brewster given by the hon. gen-
tleman he and his friends did not make
cellor. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The hon. gentleman
inquired of me whether the Lord Chancellor a Ireland
ofland
was Mr. Blackburne. I believe I may say that her Ma-
jesty,Biaßlackburne
bubynte the
to a db ve i
The hon. gentleman did not deny
that Mr. Blackburno was a lawyer of great eminence, great
ce
Lordo Chancellorfher Ministers,
ire
has
him
Lord
appointed Ch
Mr.-
, and that he
has accepted office.
ability and experience. The hon. gentleman referred to
the past as having been the period when Mr. Blackburno
was distinguished ; but three months ago Mr. Blackburno
was judge of appeal in Ireland, and the judge of appeal is
the judge who revises the decision of the Lord Chancel-
lor, and if he had been appointed by a Whig g Government
only three months ago he would have been deemed quite
competent by the late Government, but the hon. gentle-
man seems to think him incompetent to perform the duties
of Lord Chancellor. (A laugh.) The hon. gentleman
seemed to complain that Mr. Napier was appointed as suc-
cessor to Mr. Blackburne, although an hon.gentleman who
sits near the hon. member, delivered a panegyric on Mr.
Napier. No one can deny that he is an able and astute
lawyer. When the act passed first for constituting the
judges of appeal in Ireland it was admitted that if one
man more than another was entitled to the highest post
it was Mr. Napier. The hon. member for Nottingham,
with that delicacy which sometimes distinguishes him,
talked of an infirmity under which Mr. Napier labours,
and said, ho was deaf as a post. I am sorry to say,
and I speak from information which I have re-
ceived, that deafness is an infirmity to which the right
hon. gentleman has always been subject, but that did
not prevent him from obtaining the confidence of the house
in his judgment and learning, and by his labours materially
assisting the deliberations of this house in committee. I am
informed that the infirmity to which Mr. Napier is subject,
being an infirmity not coming from age, has not increased
since he was in the House of Commons, and therefore I
cannot think that that is any ground for incapacitating him
from filling the post to which he has been preferred. I do
not know that I need say more upon the remarks of the
hon. member for Nottingham (Mr. Osborne). The hon.
gentleman has indeed said that it was my duty, on thepart
of the Goveroment, to express the policy they mean to pur-
sue with respect to Ireland. I remember seven years ago,
under almost similar circumstances, taking my placeat this
table. The hon. gentleman, who then represented another
constituency—he really has been almost a universal repre-
sentative—(laughter)—asked me to favour the house with
an exposition of the policy of her Majesty's Government,
not only on this but almost on every othersubject (Laugh-
ter.) A debate took place, and a reference was made to pre-
cedents which regulate the conduct of this house, and I
believe it was admitted by the hon. gentleman, who did not
take much by his motion, that it was not established that
it was my duty to make
an exposition of the policy of the
Government, it being
clearly shown, on the contrary, that
such was not my duty, no one placed in my position hav-
ing felt it his duty to do so on first taking his place at this
table. The hon. member has now grown more modest ;
seven years' experience has modified his opinions—(laugh-
tor)—and now he
confines his demand as to what will be
our policy towards Ireland. On that point I will not shelter
myself under precedents. The hon. member seems toaccuse
me of having some secret by which emigration may be
checked from' the sister isle, and he demands that J, as
Chancellor of the Exchequer should with perfect frankness
explain what this secret specific is. Ile certainly seemed
to intimatelhat I, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, was go-
ing to place an export duty on emigration. (Laughter.)
The hon. member for Nottingham says there are some things
he will not bear, and
says emphatically that he will not
hear votes for public works, but especially will he hold
himself bound to oppose votes for railways. Now, I am
bound to admit, with the frankness which the lion. gen-
tleman encourages, that it is pall of our policy to propose
a vote for the Irish railways, and to assist them at this
moment. (Hear, hear.) This may deprive us of the con-
fidence of the hon. member—(laughter)—but this will,
perhaps, be of less importance if we obtain the confidence
of others by this declaration. I hope that such a policy,
which we inherited from our predecessors, will obtain for
us support, and we recommend it because we think that
they wisely advised it. I have now answered the ques-
tions of the hon. gentleman as to our Irish policy, and I
trust that, when questions relating to Ireland come to be
discussed, whether these be imperial or local, whether they
relate to the construction of railways, or whether they in-
volve the question of education, the Government will be ,

able to announce their policy in a manner which will en-
title them to the confidence of this house. (Hear, hear.)
Several votes were agreed to for the Revenue depart-
ments, the Customs, and the Post-office packet service.
A number of bills were advanced a stage, and others
postponed.

The house adjourned at a quarter past one until twelve
o'clock this day, when the Thames Navigation ;Bill will
be considered in committee.