The Sun.
London, England, 1832-06-15 00:00:00

LOANS IN INDIA.

Sir JOHN MALCOLM moved for copies of the corre-
spondence between the Board of Control and the Court of
Directors of the East lodic Company, since May, 1831,
on the subject of pecuniary claims of British subjects on
the native princes of India. The Hon. and Gallant Of-
ficer took a view of the pernicious effects of loans, and
pecuniary transactions between Europeans and the native
princes of India.
Mr. R. GRANT, in the absence of his Right Hon.
relation, felt it necessary to offer a few words on the sub-
ject of the motion. There was no wish for any conceal-
ment on this subject, but he thought that after what he
should briefly state, his Hon. Friend would not press the
motion. There were only five eases included in the cor-
respondence to which the motion referred. Of these,
the correspondence relating to the first was already before
the House, with probably the exception of one letter,
written since the correspondence was printed. The second
case was under revision before a Committee up stairs,
and the temainieg three were pending, and the subject
of a curt espondence still going on. It was still unfinished,
and not in a state to be submitted to the House.

Mr. ASTELL thought that the House should be put in
the possesion of all the correspondence, and he therefore
would support the motion.
Mr. R. GRANT repeated, that there would be no ob-
jection to lay the correspondence before the House when

completed.
Sir H. PEEL regretted that there was no tribunal be-
fore which such matters could could come, instead of a
Committee of that House. He hoped that the Charter
would not be renewed without having a provision made
in this respect. Unl so there was an assurance that the
correspondence should be given when complete, he should
feel it necessary to support the motion.
Lord ALTHORP said, there would be no objection to
lay the correspondence before the House when complete.
Sir R. PEEL said that, with this assurance from the
Noble Lord, he would advise his Hon. Friend not to press
the motion.

After a desultory conversation, in which Sir C. Forbes,
Sir G. Warrender, and Mr. H. Villiers joined, Sir J.
Malcolm consented to withdraw his motion.
PARTY PROCESSIONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. STANLEY then rose, in pursuance of his notice,
to move for leave to bring in a Bill to restrain, in certain
cases, party processions in Ireland. He hoped that, at
that late period of the Session, and with a knowledge
of the near approach of one of those periodical processions
which it was the object of this Bill to restrain, no Hon.
Member would object to his bringing forward his motion
at that late hour of the evening. (It was half-past one
o'clock.) He acknowledged that the title of his Bill was
calculated to awaken constitutional jealousy ; at the same
time he contended that in the provisions of the Bill itself,
there was nothing to alarm the warmest advocate of the
most extensive political liberty. The object of his Bill
was not to fetter the manifestation of political opinion in
any way whatever. His Bill was directed against those
party processions which were connected with religious
subjects, and which were calculated to maintain and pro-
long religious animosities. It would be for the House to
decide, after it had made itself acquainted with the details
of the measure, whether he had properly characterized its
nature and extent. The object of it, he again repeated,
was to place certain restrictions on those processions which
for a series of years now past had taken place periodi-
cally,—which arose out of the former collision of religious
opinions,—and which produced no other result than an
increase of that mutual rancour, which for so long a time
had animated the two great religious sects into which
Ireland was unfortunately divided. His Majesty's present
Government had hoped, and their predecessors in office had
also hoped, thst the settlement of the Catholic question
would have terminated these displays of religious animo-
sity; and any Government would have preferred waiting
for the happy consummation of that healing measure,—
for a healing measure be was certain it would still
turn out to be,—to placing restrictions upon those ebulli-
tions of sectarian feeling which it was the object of this
measure to restrain. But the experience of the last three
years proved too clearly that no diminution of that ran-
corous feeling had yet taken place. Year after year the
tlehetebullitionsr
processions religious
festivalseess i
nof both parties had been marked by vio-
nby
yf
whichreligious
eyfeew feeling g
distinguished, and scartte
scarcely n
initiated in Jr land without tumult and bloodshed. Former
governments of
ter-
minated
governments had issued proclamations warning the people
that these processions were illegal. T
men of both parties had exerted themselv
npectable
instances had exerted themselves successfeulo"
ll Y---lt respectable
s ino many
instances order to
prevent these displays of angry feelings. He knew that
several magistrates, who, thought they were themselves
enrolled among the Orangemen, had shown tine most
marked anxiety to put an end to these processions, which
terminated not only in bloodshed for the day, but in the
continuation :of animosities for years, he might perhaps
say, for generations to come. On the other hand, it was
only an act of justice to the Catholic clergy to acknowledge,
that they had endeavoured with the most praiseworthy zeal
to prevent the display of Catholic feeling on the 17th of
March. At the same time both the Orange magistrates
and the Catholic clergy were placed by those processions
in a situation of delicacy and of difficulty, from which it
was the object of this Bid to relieve them. Every one of
these processions, as they bad all a tendency to break the
peace, was a misdemeanour by the common law ; hut the
question which rendered the interference of a Magistrate
so difficult, was the question as to the precise moment
when these meetings became illegal, The Magistrate
must have the oath of an informer, declaring his apprehen-
sion that a breach of the peace would ensue from them ;
and even when that oath was obtained, the Magistrate had
to exercise his discretion, lest he should interfere with an
assembly that was perfectly legal, or should admit a meet-
ing to continue which was illegal. The object of his Bill
was to define the cases in which these processions were
illegal, and therefore punishable as a misdemeanour, and
to lay down a line which would enable the Magistracy, by
following it, to put an end to such processions when they
were illegal. At that late hour of the night it was im-
possible far him to enter minutely into a description of the
details of the Bill. He would merely say, that processions
on days set apart for religious festivals, or on days set
apart for celebrating party triumphs, arising out of reli-
gious events, accompanied by banners, badges, and fire-
arms, of which latter too many of these processions were
even wantonly lavish, were circumstances which called for
declaratory law rather than an enactment from the legis-
lature, as an assistance to the Magistracy in the perform-
ance of those duties, which, he was happy to say, most of
the Magistrates were anxious to discharge. He would not
enter at that moment into a further description of hiscan-
is Bill
—he would only say t hat it was a short Bill—but short
ly
aysasisto, was,
nit
tdheeselrimveidts, he
iatdtatoitbteedfu,
ltlyo
ibnevetshtoigraotuegdh.
ing at the period of the year, and knowing that one of the
days for the manifestation of religious feeling was rapidly
approaching, he thought that nobody would deny, that it
was expedient that Parliament should pronounce au
opinion upon processions of this description. He there-
ore trusted that no objection would be made totilereavmo-
I tion with which he should conclude--narnelYr for
bring in a Bill to restrain in certain cases party processions
irr Ireland.
'

Mr. MAXWELL objected to this measure, because it
was partial in its application. It ought to extend England a,
well as to Ireland ; it ought to apply to the Radicals
well as to the Orangemen.—(Hear, from the Opposition.)

e Radicals Were quite as much in the habit of marching
ire procession as the Oran emen, but the object of they+.•
to o parties was very different. The Radicals wished to
tip et, the Orangemen to preserve, the institutions of their
country.—(Hear.)
Mr. RUTHVEN thought that if tl e Government of
Ire'and would determine to carry the present law firmly
in'o execution, it would be found sufficient to check the
evil which the Right Hon. Gentleman had so properly de.
flounced. So long, however, as magistrates were allowed
to act as reviewing officers of these processions, so long
w,uld these processions continue to disgrace and to harass
the country.

Lord INGESTRIE would not oppose the introduction
Hof t`te Bill. He could wish, however, that its application
ere extend, 41 in the triode suggested by his Hon. Friend
e Member fur Cavan.

Colonel PERCEVAL defended the Orangemen at
some length, but, at the same time, was an enemy to these
pr cessions. Let Ministers do their duty impartially to
p rsons of all religions in Ireland ; and if they did that,
they would find no difficulty in tranquillizing that country.
V." en that was done, he should he happy to lend them
his humble assistance to put down all party processions in
I: eland. At present, however, he could not support this
rn •asure. On the contrary, as it gave encouragement to
the agitation and rebellion with which Ireland was so
rife, he must meet it with his most strenuous opposition.
Mr. SHAW looked upon this measure as a mere mockery
of legislation.—( Hear, hear.) It was legislating against a
p aticular class, and not for the benefit of the commo-
nly at large. Why should it not be directed against the
r litical unions as well as against the Orange associations ?
He would tell the House the reason why. We have seen
Noble Lords corresponding, on the most friendly footing,
with those unions, which have put down the independence
of the House if Lords—(Hear, hear)—and have weakened
tl•e stability of the throne itself. (Violent cheering from
the Opposition.) We have had processions in Ireland,
headed by Catholic priests, taking the most revolutionary
course ; and yet we have not seen Government take any
measure to put them down. This measure was avowedly
brought forward on account of the proximity of the 14th
of July. He could not help consi lering it as a measure
intended to conciliate the Hon. and Learned Member for
Kerry and his friends, and to neutralize the hostility
which they felt against the Government, for the opposition
which it had given to their plans of Reform. He be-
longed to no party in Ireland.—(Cheers and laughter.)
Ile had never been a party to any procession ; he had ne-
ver attended any political meeting either in Ireland or else-
where, except ft r the purposes of his election.—(Cheers
and a laugh.) [Mr. Shed, we believe, added, in an under
tone, " You have been at Exeter-hall, at the meeting for the
e weation of the pour in Ireland."] He admitted such to
be the fact; but that was a religious, and not a political
meeting.—(A laugh.) As to these religious processions,
he had always set his face against them.—(Hear, bear.)
Still, with that settled opinion operating on his mind, be
could not help denouncing this measure as a partial, un-
just, and unnecessary measure.—(Cheers.) The Rig ht Hon.
Secretary for Ireland had told them—and not many days
ago,—that he would not call on the House to arm the
Government of Ireland with any extraordinary powers,
and now he came forward with an extraordinary measure,
and without any case, to put down the Orange societes ;
and yet, strange to say, the Right Hon. Secretary bad not
taken any steps to put down other processions, which were
equally injurious to the public peace.—(Cheers.) He
had received a letter from a member of a noble family,
who was distinguished for the liberality of his opinions,
giving him a description of the seditious proceedings of a
large meeting, which had taken place at Dungarvon, in
the county of Cork, on the 4th of June, and which, if he
might trust to appearances, had not yet attracted, nor was
likely to attract, the notice of Government. At that
meeting, a Catholic priest, the Rev. Mr. Connell, of Dun-
healy, near Castle Martyn, had used this language to the
populace.--" They may send out the military, but don't
be afraid of them, boys; for one half of them are Roman
Catholics, and will bite the balls off their cartridges, or
if they file upon you, will fire clean over your heads. In
future you must pay no tithes, no taxes, no absentee rents.
Whenever a distress takes place, you have all of you to
attend. You will not do anything. You are even to
help to drive the cattle ; but let me see, boys, who dare
buy. You are to look on. You are to commit no
breach of the law.—(Hear, from Mr. Ruthven.) The
Hon. Gentleman was welcome to his cheer, but would he
cheer what came next? " But if one beast is sold, then
you know, boys, what you are to do."—(Opposition cheers.)
He believed that the Hon. Gentleman knew enough of
Ireland, to know what construction the hearers of this
tirade would put upon it.—(Opposition cheers.) At the
same time, 40,000 persons were assembled for the same
obj 4'. at Carlow; and a Catholic priest there also told than
that they were not to be guilty of any violation of the
law,—a piece of advice which was too often given for the
purpose of producing quite the contrary effect. But what
said this priest afterwards ?—" We are come to take ven-
geance on our oppressors ;" and then he described the
clergy of the Church of Ireland, as individuals who would
as readily imbrue their hands in the blood of the people as
they would in the blood of wolves.—(Opposition cheers.)
This multitude, thus cautiously advised not to commit any
breach of the peace, went from the place of their meeting
to Dr. Doyle's house, and Dr. Doyle bestowed his blessing
upon them. He had received a letter from a relation of
his own, informing him, that on that same night 53 bon-
fires were lighted in the district, and cast a funereal blaze
over a space of not less than 20 miles. Ought not Go-
vernment to put a stop to such meetings, as well as to
Orange processions ?---(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. O'CONNELL thought the existing law was suffi-
cient to put down all illegal meetings, but at the same
time he was desirous to see the Bill.
Sir R. PEEL must see the Bill before he could pro.
nounce any decided opinion upon the subject, and he be-
lieved that none of the gentlemen who had spoken would
object to the Bill being laid on the table. It certainly was
a most difficult matter to legislate upon.
Mr. SHEIL contended that there was an important
distinction between Orange processions and anti-tithe
meetings. Blood had repeatedly been shed at the former,
whilst at the latter only a passive resistance to the law was
manifested.
Mr. A. LEFROY adtnitted that there was a difference
between the Orange and the anti-tithe meetings, but
thought the latter were infinitely the worst. He thought
it likely that the powers proposed to be given Government
by the Bill would be tyrannically applied in some instances,
and therefore he would vote against its introduction if a
division should take place.
After a few words from Mr. CRAMPTON and Mr. H.
GRATTA N in favour of the Bill,
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the report on the
Division of Counties Bill was taken into further considera.

tion, and agreed to ; and the third reading of the Bill
was fixed for Monday.
The other orders of the day having been disposed of,
the House adjourned at a quarter past three o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNI? 14.
Lord DENBIGH presented two petitions, one from
Hinckley, praying for the abolition of the punishment of
death in cases of forgery, and the other from Chelsea,
praying for measures for the better observance of the
Lord's Day.
Lord RADNOR presented two petitions from Ireland,
praying for the abolition of the punishment of death in
cesea of felony, where there was no personal violence.
Lord KING presented a petition from Lincoln, pray-
ing for the abolition of punishment by death in cases of
felony where there was no personal violence.
The M irquess of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from Weymouth, in favour of the system of education in•
troduced into Ireland by his Majesty's Government.
The Earl of WICKLOW presented a petition against
that system of education.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented a peti-
tion from the Presbytery of Edinburgh to the same
effect.
Lord RADNOR presented a petition from a parish in
the county of Mayo, in favour of the system.
Lord RADNOR presented a petition from the Crawford-
street Political Union, Manchester, praying the House not
to throw any obstacles in the way of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters carrying into effect the Irish system of education.
Lord MELBOURNE presented a petition from Poole,
praying for a revision of the Criminal Laws.
Lord KING, in rising to present a petition which he
held in his hand, had a few observations to make. The
petition was on the subject of tithes. On the last occasion
on which he presented a similar petition, he was asked
a question by a Rev. Prelate on the subject. He would
now take the liberty of putting the question to the Right
Rev. Prelate—" Was the Church and tithe property
originally the gift of pious persons for the support of
religious worship ?" if it was, the use of it had
been grossly perverted. If it was not, but an impost laid
on property by the State for the support of the public ser-
vants, thin it was a tax imposed by the Crown, and
liable to be interfered with by the Crown, or by the
Legislature at pleasure. It bad been interfered with
on various occasions. It was a tax not on the land
itself, but on the produce of the land—a tax of the
worst nature; and suppose the Bishops were to forsake
their religious duties, and become political prelates, anti
suppose upon some great question, they were to render
themselves in the vote they gave so odious to the public as

be unable to show themselves in the street—
, u pose that his Majesty's Government might
11 .1 it expedient to deprive the Bishops of a seat in that
ll,use—nay, even to alter the Church, and convert
it into a Presbyterian institution altogether.—would
the Bishops not either have to alter their princi-
ples, or to give up their claims entirely to tithes ?
His Lordship then laid upon the table a petition from
Beaminster against tithes.
The Bishop of LONDON thought it inconvenient to
raise incidental discussions upon the presentment of peti-
tions when the whole subject of tithes would probably
sn-n come before them. He should, therefore, simply
eon tent himself with denying that he ever asserted that
Legislature had not a right to interfere for the regula-
t;oii of Church property, or to take care that the holders
it did their duty.
SENTENCE OF DEATH BILL.

At the earnest request of Lord TENTERDEN, the second
rr.iding of the Sentence of Death Bill was postponed till
this day se'nnight.
NORWICH ASSIZES.

Lord SUFFIELD moved the second reading of the
Norwich Assizes Bill.
The Duke of GRAFTON observed, that if the removal
of the Assizes was requisite, the Judges had the power to
remove them, as they had done from Horsham to Lewes.
An Act of Parliament for the purpose, therefore, was un-
ne,.essary ; and he concluded by moving, as an amend-
ment, that the Bill be read a second time this day six
months.

The Earl of ROSEBERY supported the Bill.
Lord TENTERDEN stated, tbat one of the arguments
fur the Bill was _without foundation. That argument was,

th it capital felonies could not be tried at Norwich, except
by the Judges of Assize. That was a mistake ; for it had
b en decided by all the Judges, that by the charter of the
city of Norwich, the magistrates there had the power to
by capital felonies ; and if prisoners remained long
without trial, that was the fault of the magistrates. It
was much better, however, if the removal was to take
place, that it should be effected by the Legislature, instead
of by the Judges.
The House divided on the question that the word
" now" stand part of the question.
Content
Not content
Majority .
The Bill was then read a second time.