The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-07 00:00:00

CANADA.

Mr. ROEBUCK wished to put a question to the Right
Hon. Baronet to which he hoped he would have no objection
in giving him an answer. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated
when he ( Mr. R.) presented a petition from the Legislative
Assembly on the subject of Canada, that his Majesty was about
to send out a Commissioner who should be perfectly un-
connected with either party. Since then Lord Amherst
had been appointed to that office, and he wished to ask the
Right Hon. Baronet whether he was aware that Noble Lord was
connected by marriage with Mr. Haile, one of the persons the
most obnoxious to the Assembly. He did not mean to question
the impartiality of Lord Amherst, but whether the people of
Canada would be satisfied with the nomination.

Sir R. PEEL begged to state at once he had never before
heard one of these circumstances ; but even if he had, he
doubted whether he should have listened to them. Of a person
who had filled the office of Gov.-General of India, he must say he
had more respect for the people of Canada than to suppose they
would allow a circumstance of that kind to impeach his impar-
tiality, or act as a prejudice against him.
Mr. ROEBUCK merely wished to set himself right with
the House ; his observations merely went to express the feel-
ings of the people of Canada.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—His reply was precisely to the
same end. He had that unaffected respect for the people of
Canada, that he did not think they would attribute such mo-
tives to Lord Amherst.

Mr. ROEBUCK asked if Sir R. Plaskett, who had been
appointed Governor of Ceylon, was also to retain the pension
of 500/. which he held from his former appOintment at the
Cape of Good Hope.
Sir R. PEEL said that the appointment was not yet suffi-
ciently arranged to answer that question.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE inquired whether it was true that
the Government bad sent a special mission to Spain ?
Lord MAHON replied that Lord Elliot had been sent to
Spain to negotiate with Don Carlos, in order to prevent the
further effusion of blood, by putting an end to the civil war at
present raging in that country. This mission had been sent
with the full concurrence of both France and Spain.
THE ESTABLISHED CHURCH (IRELAND).
Sir ROBERT PEEL wished to state that it was his in-
tention to adhere strictly to the declaration he made, and to
throw no impediment in the way of proceeding with the de-
bate. At the same time he wished to put the House in pos-
session of how they stood with respect to the Navy Esti-
mates. He would merely read a part of a letter from Mr.
Briggs, addressed to the Admiralty Board, in which he
stated that the first payment to the artificers and workmen
in his Majesty's Victualling and Dock-yards would become
due on the 10th instant, and that there were no funds for that
purpose. There were also other demands which they had
no means of meeting. He wished also to state the position
in which they were placed relative to the Mutiny Act. If the
House contemplated a recess at Easter, of which he had no doubt,
it would be most expedient that this Act should pass before
the 15th inst. He suggested that the votes upon the Navy
Estimates should certainly take precedence of the No-
ble Lord's motion on that relative to the re-enactment
of the Mutiny Bill. If this did not meet the Noble Lord's
views, he hoped that after the Noble Lord's motion was dis-
posed of, an opportunity would be afforded him ( Sir R. Peel)
of bringing forward these subjects.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in rising to move the order of
the day for resuming the debate on the appropriation of surplus
revenues of the Irish Church, wished to state the course he
meant to pursue. The course he intended to pursue was
this—in moving that the House should agree to the resolution
in Committee, he should propose, should the resolution be
carried, that it should be reported to-morrow, and if the House
should further agree to the report, he would then move a reso-
lution of the House to the following effect :—" That it is the
opinion of this House that no measure upon the subject of
tithes in Ireland can lead to a satisfactory and final adjustment
which dces not embody the principle of the foregoing resolu-
tion." In case that resolution should he carried, he should on
the succeeding day move an address to the Crown to the effect
he had stated. The Noble Lord then moved the order of the
day for the House resolving itself into a Committee upon his
resolution. The House having resolved itself into a Com-
mittee,

Mr. BORT H WICK rose to oppose the resolution.—
He would not follow the Noble Lord who had moved
the resolution through all the musty steps which he
had taken, from the history of the first Edward, through
the reign of Elizabeth, down to the commencement of
the present century, because whatever grievances might
in those years have been inflicted upon Ireland, and
however favourable the subject for declamation it pre-
sented in its several stages through the history of those
times, he did not feel that any legitimate inference could be
drawn from any one of those circumstances, to the argu.
ment then before the House.—( Hear, hear.) He would
begin, therefore, at the commencement of the present
century—( Cries of " Oh, oh")--because, though the measures
which were granted to Ireland had been wrung from the Le-
gislature more from fear than from a sense of justice, yet they
had exercised a beneficial influence upon the prosperity of Ire-
land. He wished Hon. Members when they quoted authorities
such ac Burke in that House, would do so fairly. Mr. Burke,
though he maintained that Church property was inviolable,
did not assert it was beyond the regulating control of the State.
For though Burke says the State has the jurisdiction of con-
trouling the power of the Church, he does not say it has
the jurisdiction of diverting it to other purposes. Why was it
the Protestant Church weighed on the people of Ireland?
Because they were paying for a Church from which they de-
rived no benefit, and which they believed to be heresy. The
Noble Lord proposed to give Catholics the advantage of educa-
tion ; but would the Catholics agree to this combination ?
It would be a new source of discontent and agitation in Ire-
land that the Catholics were compelled to be educated by a
Church whose doctrines they held to be erroneous
and heretic.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Member for
Northumberland had said that there were many things which
might be taught equally well by Protestants to Catholics, and
by Catholics to Protestants ; but he (Mr. B.) was of opinion
that education must always proceed in connection with reli-
gious tuition. He had every charity for the Catholic Church,
but he would not trust even the wisest of its clergy, and even
on the most general principles, to educate Protestant children.
The Hon. and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets had
said the Protestant Church caused most of the misery in Ireland.
He gave the Hon. and Learned Member full credit for the as-
sertion that accompanied that declaration--that he was a sound
Protestant, and that he believed it was the present and most effi-
cient form for national instruction that could be devised.
But his argument was, that the Roman Catholics formed the ma-
jority, and the Protestants the minority ; and, therefore, it could
not but follow, that the majority contributing to support a reli-
gion in which they did not believe, were contracting prejudices
against that religion. Other Hon. Members had asserted
that the cause of the animosity which existed between
the Protestants and Roman Catholics was because the
latter associated with the Protestant Establishment
those acts of tyranny, and those scenes of bloodshed
on which Hon. Members had been so needlessly elo-
quent. He repeated needlessly, because it inferred that
the Hon. Members on his (Mr. B.'s) side of the House
were less desirous of applying remedies for these abuses
than those on the other side. The Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin had asked of the House to give the people
of Ireland appropriation in the name of justice—there
might be no surplus but give them the name.—( Hear.)
His (Mr. B.'s) side of the House would not feed the people of
Ireland with empty declamation when they asked for bread.
The Noble Lord had described the Protestant Clery of
Ireland as being rather political than as being rather devout—
that they were given rather to advance the interests of' a cer-
tain faction than those placed under their spiritual care.
He would refer the House to the Bill introduced by the Right
Hon. the Secretary for Ireland, the object of which was to
abolish sinecures--(Hear)— and to do away with indolence
and inefficiency on the part of the Protestant clergy.
What was the conduct of the Opposition by which his Ma-
jesty's Government was met? Why, they told the people
of Ireland that they did not know whether there would be
a surplus or not, but if there should be a surplus, we will tell
you what we will do—we will give you moral and
religious education in the bosom of the Protestant Church.
We will give you that which we know you do not want
( Hear.) These were the patriots of Ireland—these were the
men who professed to put an end to all such scenes as had
occurred at Rathcormac.—( Hear, hear.) He considered the
present Government had a fair claim to the confidence of the
country, from the Opposition having been obliged to vote with
them upon every particular measure they had brought forward.
The question before the House was two-fold. First, that the
resolution of the Noble Lord contained a great benefit for Ire.
land ; and, secondly, that it was intended to drive Ministers
from their places. What had been hitherto held up before the
eyes of his Majesty's Ministers was an unsubstantial, shadowy
threat, assuming various forms as the exigencies of the case
required, until the Right Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had compelled the opponents of his Government to
explain that it meant at last an address to his Majesty. An
address to carry what ? He ( Mr. Borthwick) wished the
Noble Lord the Member for Devonshire were in the House to
explain. Was it the object of the address to tell his Majesty
that the exercise of his undoubted prerogative in selecting the
Ministers of the Crown wits not justifiable ? or was it to be,
like the message of Jack Cade to another English potentate :
" We are content ycu should reign so long as you give us an
unconstitutional power over the exercise of your prerogative ?"
In a few days the country would make them hear from all
parts its indignation at their course of proceeding—a legisla-
tion so absurd—so unworthy the wisdom of that House, and
the dignity of the British people. The late Government could
not carry the Irish Tithe Bill unless they asserted the great
principle of appropriation. If the principle were a great one,
why did they not assert it before they introduced the Irish
Tithe Bill of last Session 7—( Hear.) If it were a principle it
could not fluctuate. Why then, in the name of justice, if it
were of such importance, did they delay its assertion until the
present time ? Why, if it were not for the purposes of fac-
tion ?—( Cries of oh, oh, and hear.) He would define faction.
Faction was a union of persons for the purpose of carrying a
measure or measures which had party and not patriotism for
their objects.—( Cries of oh, and hear.) Why did the oppo-
site faction—he used the words advisedly, in a political sense
solely, and without intention of retracting them—why did the

opposite faction wait for the present time to assert a principle
which they termed a great principle, and let pass the time and
the opportunity when they had the power, if they had the
of effectually doing so ? One of the greatest objections which
could arise to the measure of the Noble Lord the Member for
Devonshire, was that it would be a fertile means of introducing
a spirit of proselytism into Ireland. The moral good derivable
at present from the efforts of both Churches, Catholic and
Protestant, would be thus neutralised, if not totally destroyed.
It would be an apple of discord between the people of both
persuasions. The Hon. Member concluded by opposing the
motion before the Committee as factious, and not calculated to
answer the object which it pretended to have in view.
Mr. S. .MAXWELL addressed the Committee, as we un-
derstood him, in support of the motion.
Mr. B. WALL opposed the motion on the ground of prin-
ciple, and because he believed that the revenues of the Irish
Church would not afford a surplus after due provision was
made for the Establishment. The Clergy ought to be heard
at the bar in defence of those rights which the motion of the
Noble Lord went to infringe. He would wish to see the Irish
Catholic Church connected with the State, but not at the ex-
pence of despoiling the Established Church, but rather by
means of raising a separate revenue for its support. The
present measure was a bonus for proselytism, and which every
respectable person ought to wish to avoid.
Mr. LUCAS opposed the motion.
Mr. H. L. BULWE R thought that if there were a sur-
plus Church revenue it should be applied equally to the benefit
of all classes in Ireland. The so applying it was but a sort of
appendix to the Catholic Emancipation Bill, which measure
ought to be fully carried out. When people talked of the
Irish Church he would be glad to know whether they meant
that its funds should be applied to the benefit of the Clergy or
their congregation. It seemed according to the arguments of
Hon. Members opposite that those funds ought to be exclu-
sively appropriated to the Protestant Clergy of Ireland. He
regretted the fall of the late Administration—he regretted
that any Government should lose the great abilities of the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peep—but he felt bound, even,.
at the risk of losing those abilities, to support the motion of
the Noble Lord the Member for Devonshire.
Mr. F. BRUEN, who was nearly inaudible in the gallery,
was understood to say that in his parish tithe amounted to only
one-half of the rent. The Hon. Member contended that
Protestants were increasing in number in many parishes with
which he was acquainted. In one parish six years ago,. there
was not more than two hundred Protestants ; but in that space
of time they had increased to six hundred. This was the con-
sequence of a proper application of the Church funds. In
another parish of his neighbourhood, there were a few years
back but five or six Protestants; there was a difficulty of find-
ing funds for the support of their religious worship, but they
were supplied by the munificence of the landlords, and that
caused the Protestant population to be at the present time one
hundred and fifty in the parish alluded to. He considered it a
great injustice to take away the funds from the Protestant
Church, and to apply them to the moral and religious educa-
tion of the Catholics. The safety of the connection between
the Church and State depended on the maintenance of the
Church of Ireland.
Mr. B A INE S said there was a point which he could not
wholly overlook. It was this:—The Right Hon. Baronet
opposite ( Sir Robert Peel) and all the Hon. Gentlemen who
spoke on that side of the House, had declared that the re-
venues of the Irish Church ought to be applied solely to eccle-
siastical purposes. He would appeal to the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, and to Hon. Gentlemen opposite, whether for ages, or
during their time—whilst in or out office—the revenues of the
Irish Church had not been applied to other purposes than ec-
clesiastical ones?—( Hear.) Let the case be taken of a parish
in Ireland, the revenues of which to the incumbent, whether
in tithes or glebe lands, were 500/. a year, and he would ask
whether that sum was not sent out of the country to a non-
resident pastor ? He would ask whether it was not true that
there were no curate, no Protestant congregation, and no one
in the parish to represent the Church of England, except the
tithe-proctor? In such a case he would ask whether the
Church funds were applied to ecclesiastical purposes? He
(Mr. Baines) was ready to allow that they were appropriated
to ecclesiastics, but not to ecclesiastical purposes. If the present
resolution should be fully carried into effect, the funds of the
Irish Church would be applied to ecclesiastical purposes, at least
to a certain degree they would be so applied, since they would
be applied to the moral and religious education of all the
people of that country. The Noble Lord ( Stanley) had asked
is this all you mean to do for Ireland? No; it was only part
of a system--(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches)---V
which they meant rather to rule Ireland by her affections than
by the sword. It must be the wish of both sides of the House
that Ireland should be at peace. He understood the Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) the other night to intimate an
intention of again appealing to the people. Gentlemen on
his side of the House had not been prevented by that threat
from doing their duty. This, after a general election, would
be only an appeal from the people to the people. What hope
was there that the decision of the people would be now dif-
ferent to what it had recently been? There might be ad-
dresses got up to support the present Administration, but
counter addresses would be equally numerous. With respect
to the people, he could confidently say that they were gene'
rally opposed to a sinecure Church, such as that of Ireland,
and to a non-resident Clergy; and their feelings would soon bee.
come equally strong against similar abuses in the Church of
England.
The Marquis of CHA NDO S would remove pluralities and
son-residence, but would not abandon the Church of Ireland,
and hand over its temporalities to another Church. Whatever
plans the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) might now propose to
himself, he could assure him that having once made this
move in the affairs of the Church of Ireland, he could not stop
his progress.—( Cheers.) Allusion had been made to an in-
tention of dissolving the present Parliament. He knew not,
nor was it likely that he would have the means of knowing;
whether such an intention existed or not ; but if an appeal
should be made to the people, Gentlemen opposite would
find that there was a Protestant constituency in the country
—(Cheers)—prepared to protect the Established Church--
( Cheers)--and not to yield up her revenues to another Chorella
He had been informed that there was already in Ireland
numerous schools—that there was no lack of means to give
education to the people. Upon what ground, then, did the
Noble Lord now call for this supposed surplus to educate
the Roman Catholics. If the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell)
succeeded in overthrowing the present Government—and that
was his object—(Cheers)—the movement would not rest here:
Many of the Gentlemen opposite, with whom the Noble Lora
now acted, would not go along with him in a middle course,
and he world be at length compelled to go with the streatel
(Cheers.) He complained not of the Catholics ; they aey4
consistently, and in the way that was natural enough tin v:d
their circumstances. But here he for one would make 11'7
stand, and-oppose the application of the property of the Pre;
tant Church to any other than Church purposes.—(Cheeg'i
He could not find better or more appropriate terms in wi,c,4
to convey his opinion on this subject than were used in ltat
by the late Chancellor for Ireland (Lord Plunket.) rie,"
Noble Lord then said, that the existence of the Protestant Es-
tablishment tablishment in Ireland was the great bond of union between
the two countries, and the moment that bond was broken, that
moment would terminate their connection. He felt firmly con'
vinced that this measure would hasten the repeal of the Union'
and for ever disunite both countries.—(Cheers.)
Mr. ROCHE said there was a large proportion of the Ca-
tholics of Ireland who could not speak English, and to when(
therefore it would be necessary to apply some separate ph° 53
education. The Catholic Clergy had no desire to post
et
themselves of the revenues of the Established Church, nelt" a
did the people desire it, for they saw that the more wealthy alle,
independent a Clergy were the more remiss they were in the"
duties.
Mr. SCARLETT felt, in common with the Protestants.,
Ireland, that, under pretence of education, this was only
attempt to confiscate the property of the Church of Ireland
the Roman Catholic Priesthood.—( Hear.) He must say that
he heard more than once in that House declarations at variailso
~
with the oath imposed upon Gentlemen when they entered
They were told that it would be no impeachment of their Coat
sistency to go a certain length. It would, however, be a greet
impeachment of their prudence. Would they embark in a vessgt
manned and steered by their enemies? If they did so, they ow,a
expect to see the crew take her to an enemy's port, and woe'
be very sorely suspected of connivance.—( Cheers.) He had ai
yet heard no good reasons stated why they should abandon the
the
0
right and pursue the expedient. The Noble Lord (Lord J "
Russell) saw no difference between appropriation and distri-
bution. " If," said the Noble Lord, " any part of the pre;
perty of a Dean and Chapter, or of a Bishopric, may be take
away and transferred to other Church uses, there was no ,reha;
son why it might not be transferred to a stranger."
Member for the toctn of Cambridge (Mr. Rice) endeavoured
to support this view of the matter by reference to the times
Henry VIII., and by a proposition brought forward by 0`.41.
Ord, which, however, had never passed into a law. Heal
VIII. was not so weak or so foolish as to seize on the goods b
the Church.—(A laugh from the Opposition.) He only took
the goods of the monasteries. This, however, was a lay apPre"
priation, and, as a matter of right, under the circumstances
reverted to the Crown. Tithes never belonged to the state'
They consisted of private property given for the support of the
Church. The Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) was spoken of as
having disgraced himself by his conduct in relation to this ques-;
tion. So far from being a disgrace no man could do an r.,1"
more gracious than to support the institutions of his
country. Could they be the friends of the country'
who would expose their ancient mother the Church to sporir
tion? Ireland could never be tranquillized but by justice'
—( Cheers from the Opposition.) No man would ge, furthe•ri
than himself towards the attainment of that desirable object, ,/
he saw some statesmanlike plan submitted to the House. Tr
question was produced and discussed merely on party grounug'
to turn out Ministers.--( Cheers.) They would not succeed.
The Opposition had not the confidence of the country. Thee
were already tried, and were condemned by the united
of the country.—( Cheers.) When it was understood by the
people at the last general election that the Church was to he;
defended with what joy did they come forward at the call, erfie,
return a majority of Conservatives.—( Cheers, and loud CA"'
of Question.)
Mr. RONA YNE rose, and was unable for some time to ob-
tain a hearing. The calls for " Question" were loud and d
ge-
neral. On his side of the House no language had 'eon rnaa,
use of disrespectful to the Protestant clergy.--1, Hear. the
wished he could say the same of the GereAemen
other side.—( Hear, hear.) So far from this the "°,-1;
Member for Cumberland ( Sir J. Grail ,m,) whose sPcge- t
had been lauded to the skies by the Mi' risfier'ial press the.e,h•,
fit to insult the Roman Catholic pie of Ireland
saying that an unmarried dere-
Such an expression as that, nod 'never been used on his side in
the House in referee ee to the cleof the Established
Church. Muchrgy
as to thebeen
alliance betweeee the Noble Lord who made this motion
as
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. Now there
sits
a king of alliance between the Right Hon. Baronet opPu