The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-03 00:00:00

Mr. BURSTED'S' PETITION.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY presented a peti.
ti ,n from Gorge Washington Bursted, complaining th
he had been dismissed from his situation of Chief Secre•
tary at St. Lucie, without inquiry. He had on a form
occasion, presented a petition with the same thimplaim
from the Maine individual; but he now prayed that certain
documents to which he allu ted, might be printed. H
would have the petition - read, in order to satisfy Noble
Lords on the other side.—The petition was read.
Lord GODERICH never heard of such a thing before
as a petition to have documents of this kind printed ; bu
he could s4y, if the documents sent him were those alluded
to, they had nothing whatever to tlo with the disini,sioo
of the petitioner.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY had done his duty
in presenting the petition, and did not mean to make any
motion upon it.
Lord HOLLAND presented a petition from a congre-
gation of Unitarians at Liverpool, in favour of the Minis-
terial system of Education in Leland.
A message was brought from the Commons, praying
that the Marquess of WESMIEATII might have leave to
attend the Committee of the Commons on the state of
Ireland.—L-ave given.
A petition was presented from Kilmarnock, in Ayrshire,
in favour of the Scotch Reform Bill.
STATE OF IRELAND.

The Earl of RODEN had now to bring before their
Lordships a most important subject connected with th,
unhappy state of Ireland. And it .might be convenient at
the commencement to state, teat he plopuved to take the
sense of the Elms, on that motion. For he was of opi-
nion that the country never was at any period in greater
danger, both as to its internal condition, and as to its
connexion with this part of the British empire.—(Hear,
hear.) The state of Ire'and was such at the present
moment, that it was absolutely necessary that the Govern
.rent of that country should be intrusted to men of talen,,
ability, and courage ; and he lamented to say that none of
these qualities were to be found with the head of the G.,-
vernment in Ireland. In bringing forward this huestion,
!,e was not actuated by any party motives or party spirit.
His only object was to excite the attention of the people of
this country to the state of Ireland, and to rouse th.
Alinister., if possible, from the lethargy into which flies.
,d sunk with regard to Ireland, and to call forth sym.-
i.athy with the condition of Ireland in the minds of all
the peaceable and well disposed people of the empire,
impossible lot
ignreat anxiety, ,ii• bye it]
man,er
uniems Protestanthe lovre
rCe n
tI t
towiaes,
-taking at what was taking place in Ireland, both for the
it esent condition and futu.e prospects of that country.
chose who had daily opportunities of seeing the state of
rganization in which the people were—of witnessing the
;tem of intimida-
inoverneut of a whole population—the my

tion, which in a great degree rendered the law a nullity— I
when they saw nightly visitations tor the purpose of plun-
dering and reibirog the inhabitants of arms—when it was
known that these visitations were not confioed to the
night, but that the Protestants were attacked in Open
day, when they were off their guard attending the
worship of their God—when assassinations took place
in the midst of a great crowd of people, and they
were so intimidated that they did not dare to give evi-
dence against those who committed the crimes—when this
was the state of the country, it was demonstrated tha
there were fearful dissensions in Ireland ; and it was la-
mentahle to think, that this evil organization was extend
ing every day, and that the Governor.-nt had not taken
any steps to stop or prevent it.—( Hear, hear.) He la-
mented that the old adage, th it prevention was better than
cure, did not form nett of the stock of maxims ot his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. If Alinist.ra had taken an early part in
preventing this, and had not lent themselves to run down
these who took an active part in promoting this system of
organization, so much blood would not have been shed,
nor would so many evils have come to pass. Such was
the state of things, as his Noble Friends about him, who
like him resided in behind, could well corroborate, and
would sly that he hail not overstated it.— (Hear, hear.)
The resident gentry and Magistrates did what they could
to enforce the law—they ad done every thing which the
law admitted to prevent the occurrenee of these shameful
outrages. He sai m this because these gentlemen h been
unjustly calumni ited, and they had b-en pointed out as
deficient in itoing weir duty. They never were deficient
—they hail always been re dy fearlessly to stand in the
gap, ant upli ld tr nquillity and the laws, though tney
bad been unable to accomplish their object. —( Hear, hear.)
They had used every exertion in their power, anti ha-i ap-
plied to the Lord L eutenant—he was speaking go nerally
—but they had applied to the Lord Lieutenant, stating,
that it was moos-aide for t ern to pres. rye the peace, or
stop the prep., es of the comtmitiatien, unless some mea-
sures were taken so upheld the low. Three counties had
held meetings ot the Magistrates, with the Lend Lieutenants
ut those countids at their he id, as well as other bodies,
such as the Grand Juries, who were unawed by intimida-
tion, and represented the state of their several counties
to the Lord LLutenant. He would not trouble their
Lordships with all these cases—be would select only one,
that one which had been betore their Lordships on a
, former occasion, when a petition was presented by a
Noble Duke, nut then in his place, from the Magistrates
of Queen's county. Ile would take one case alone, as an
illustration of the whole, hoe uno disce omits. Those
who lived in time county had drawn attention to its con-
dition. luslB2B there were Farti it displays of Ribbonisin
Lied Whitenoyient, and time county was in a disturbed state.
In 1829 the Magistrates and Gentry entered into sub-
sCrifitions, and suescribed 6001., to offer as rewards tor
apprehending the authors of these outrages. That had
some etTct;'and at the chase of 1829 the county became
snore quiet and tranquil than it load teen for some time.
In 1830 the county continued quiet for some time, till at
a partiOlar period, and all at once the great object of the
tithes attracted their 'attention, and declarations went
forth amongst the people-that in three or four years they
might get lid of tithes altogether. In propagating that
doctrine, he would state fetrlessly that the Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy hail used a simultaneous en-rgy. In this
stare of the proceedings the'Magis rates and Gentry of the
Queen's county call-d a public meeting on the 10th of
June, 1831, and entered into various resolutions. They
represented the state of the county, and resolved to
apply to the Lord Lieutenant for permission to raise a
Volunteer Armed Associat,on, to embr ice people of all
denominations. A c .py of these resolutions was sent
to the Seemetary fur Ireland, to Earl Grey, to the Mar-
quess of Larisdowne, and they were circulated all
through the county. The project, however, of the
Armed Association, had fail d. Why? The Roman
Cattiodc Priesthood set their faces against it; no Roman
Catholic could join the corps, amid as it was determined
not to Bove it an exclusive corps, it foiled. The conse-
quence was, that Whit, boy offences incroased The num-
ber 01 crimes between the Ist of June, 1831, and Sep-
tember, 1832, was not less than 676 in one county.
That was the eflect of the excitement. In this case, what
did the Magistrates do? They did their duty. On Fe-
bruary 22, 1832, they held a general meeting at Mary-
borough, node' the Lord Lieutenant of the county (Lord
Devacy t, and passed certain resolutions. These results-
tions described the county as exposed to a general system
of plunder ; wiihtn the three preceding months, 133
houses having been broken into in the Queen's county, in
search of arms ; and f our 65 lionises arms having be, n
actual.' taken away. They described time existing law as
inefficient to put down the dangerous combination which
existed, ano they r. quested the Lord Lieutenant of the
c .unty to represent the condition of the county to the
Government, requesting that the immedi ite attention of
the L gis ature might be given to it, and mersutes taken
enforce cm e laiss. Tuey did not describe those mea-
sutt 9 a• an effectual means of redress ; they reeorntnended
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to re-en oct the Insurrec-

ion Atir, which had already been found efficient to re-
pre 8 d sorders. But his Excellency answered, that he
was nut disposed to recommend the renewal of the
In urri-ccion Act, rig other mean, of upholding the
Lyre had been tried. In consequence of iln,t an-

,w-r, the Maoistrates and Lind Lieutenant of the
Qu, en's county felt it their duty to petition the
Legislature, and the petition had b,en received and
W. then ling on their Lird•thips' tii)le. He would not
read that peti ion, which had already been read, he would
only say that it particukily called for such legislative inea-

. .
sures as would restore and preserve order in the Queen's
County, at the least expense to the farmers. To show
further the state of this county, his Lordship next stated
volt at the Lent As•iz-s, held on the first of March, there
were 150 crimes to try. Tire Judge who tried them was
well known for his humanity, and if he hid any fault, it
was that of always I, &ling to the prisoner. This Judge,
Baron Smith, had made an elaborate charge to the Jury,
and he would •how th it Lordsnips, in the beautiful lan-
guae of that Judge, what impres•i.m t ose disordeis had
made on his mind. [The Noble Lord then quoted the
Judge's charge at con•nierable length ; it enumerated the
150 crimes, of which 50 were great crimes-9 being mut..
.lers or homicides, with 5 robberies, 5 liuralarie., 1 arson,
5 .mplaying threats, 4 abductions, and various other
.freneea ; and coociuded by a caution against encoura2ing
my kind of outr ,ge and tliso,de ; for wh al it wag
checked in one line of proceedina, it was impos•ile to say
low salon it would take some other.] Na hing could show
aetter, the Noble Lord slid, than this charge, the miser-
able sate of society in Ireland. He knew that a Special
commis•i-n had been sent to the Queen's County, on
.vhich a Noble Alarqiiess had formerly congratulated
thei, Lordships. tie joined heartily in those congra•
in'ations, su f r as they were deserved ; he joined in them
o far as that Counnission went. The whole effects could
.nly he ascertained after their Lordships should have pa•med
drat Tithe Bill to which the Ministers were pledged. He
believed that the orginization was the same—that all the
materials for that organization were still there—that the
immunition wa• there, and that all the conviustibles were
•till piled up, really to be kindled by that adventurous
hand which had before set Ireland in a blaze. Large
meetings were now held, at which the most seditious lan-
guage was used, and these meetings had been presided over
•iy Magistrates holding the commission of the peace ; yet.
these Magistrates were not struck out of the commission
try the Noble and Learned Lord, though he struck our
Crptain Graham because he supported the law.—(Hear,
hear.) He suppo•ed the Noble and Learned Lord would
give some explanation on this point; but he must charge
the Government with allowing 3lagistr ites to remain in
the commission of the peace who had thus violated their
duty. On the great question of tithes, he was unwilling
to enter. Thus much he would say—and in this opinion
he was joined, he knew, by the great majority of the
clergy of Ireland—that if it were possible to find out any
way of obtaining their subsistence without coming into
collision with the p ople, the clergy would prefer it ; but
it was not to be borne, that his Majesty's Government
should allow respectable individuals—for such the Protest
ant clergy were—to he stripped of their just rights, and
left at other men's m. rcy. Ile knew not .what Nobl
Lords, and the gentlemen in the other House, might mean
by the extinction of tith s, but the Roman Catholic
priests knew how to interpret that word ; and they took
it for granted, when the Government talked of the ex-
tinction of tithes, that they were really to be extinguished,
and they took means to extinguish them. The masses of
men they collected together fur the purpose, now looked
ac something beyond the extinction of tithes. They had
gone the length in &tine places of proscribing the use of
English manufactures, and they were determined to use
these meetings to bring about a separation. He would
quote instances to show the condition of the different parts
,f the country, though he would not in this case mention
toe rt true of his informants. The first matter he would
quote re'ated to the northern part of the county of Dublin,
and the eastern part of the county of Meath, but that de-
s aiption would apply to almost the whole of the country
l'he Noble Lord then read an account of the meetings 0
the people in these two counties, which were described as
fonagogn
ey,Tmwheehmool:rane politicalrtfit,i,uroe:fecntelcide„,t:e p eop people
nbiyo nthoef
ousbtl
violent , ani
oarangues. A these anetiugs a Government reporter at•
raged the people not to pa
tithes predicted
was onlyth e ttiltlleleasb;olaitniodnthori
rent. So far was this already carried, that it) some placers
,t;:tedieniest(liii;indtllol)ery
thaeboplriteiloundeotio

-~~
T'y

for three months past, no tithes had been paid, and none I
had been asked. The people thought the Goverumen•
reporter would not attend unless the Government was 0,
their side, and that encouraged them to proceed. : Some
of the clergy had been driven to America, and others
wholly deprived of the means of subsistence. The Noble
Lord mentioned, on the authority of a communication
which he read, the names of two clergymen—Mr. D'Oliel
and Mr.' Kearney—who had been obliged to abandon thSir
prefernients and seek refuge in America. The Noble Earl
next referred to the people building towers in different
places, and beacons, and setting fire to them as signals, as
another proof of the extensive combination which existed.
The Noble Lord next referred to a letter from packets.
town, which described the people as assembling in great
multitudes at the sound of horns. The horns sounded at
between S and 9 o'clock, and the people came together and
built a tower ; the horns sounded on the following night,
and the people assembled and built other towers. A third
time the horns sounded, and the people assembled, an
shouted and yelled, so as to excite great alarm in the Pro-
testants. Ann her system was adopted. Noble Lords
might laugh; but it was a most serious and most im-
portant matter. For that system, if he did not see in it
touch to alarm him—if lie could regard it as only one of
the charms of the Burnish Church—he should feel only
pry anti disgust. But it had a great political object in
view ; and that object, he believed, to show how speedily
the whole people might be united and directed to one com-
mon object. The Noble Lsird then quoted from a commu-
nisation from the county of Wicklow, a description of the
people carrying about blazing tui f, or burning straw from
house to house, which had taken place in various
parts of Ireland at the same dmy and the same hour. That
sho ed a -ecret power and influence somewhere. His
Lordship also quoted communist mtinns Isom Dundalk and
Down, to show that the carrying about the holy turf or
blazing straw took place at the same slay and hour in
vrrious parts of Ireland. That might be a farce to some
of their Lordships, hut lie loek• d upon it as likely to
t-rminate in a tragedy. The Noble Lord next quoted a
communication from Lot d Farnham, describing the state of
Cavan. There the people ,h id been rousel and kept in aeha-
ti in the %bole night, by people passing through the town.
--(Some Nob'e Lords laughed.) He saw nothing in all
this to joke about. He conceived it to he of great importance.
There was a great combination of the people from one end
of the country to the other. The Noble Lord next
referred to a communication from Dublin, which stated
similar circumstances, and descsibed time Government as
lending its aid to those who were opposed to all our in-
stitutions. He came next to what be considered a point
of very great importance—a point in which he was more
interested than any other—he meant the state and con-
dition of the Prott:stants. He would read to their Lord-
ships another letter which brought the description of the
state of things (town to the present period. It was from
Miodleton, in the county of Cork, dated the 26th of June,
and stated that on Thursday the 21st a mob of 10,000
persons approached the town, headed by priests, with tri-
coloured flags, musicians playing " Time Write Cockade,"
and tunes of a similar character. They had with them
two ceffins, on which were inscribed the words, " Tithes,
taxes, and church rates." Thess coffins they interred,
the priests going through a mockery of the funeral
service. The mob repaired to the house of a neigh-
bouring Magistrate, a corn-factor, threatening that they
would not deal with them if he did not join them. He
joined them in consequence. They then went to
the church-yard, broke the tombstone of the late Arch-
bishop of Cashel, cu tee downen"),
stsnseri:,2tweirnOs
County,
trite:he:di
the
, jadiunniniceutliditches;
indulged ;
;8
tttahht
stated
the loudest imprecations against the Protestants. Another
their bad
into
itehat et the
sftro: tt,-
ae,Qh Protestant Queen's
they were prevented from °training provisions ; and
that when any one of them rude from home, a horn
was sounded, and the people immediately attacked him
with stones and pikes. A letter from the county of Clare
stated that in parts of that county the Protestant inhabi-
tants could get no provisions but what were brought under
the escort of troops. and had many of them heen compelled
to give up their respective trades. At Rathangan, in the
county of Westmeath, a Protestant was, on the 4th of
June, murdered in open slay, with circumstances of great
cruelty ; and although there were fifty witnesses to the
trans terion, it had been found impossible to bring it home
to the offender—the law having become a perfect laughing-
stock. He was now extremely anxious to remind their
Lordships of the d• claration made by the Noble Earl op-
posite soon after his accession to office, namely—that it lie
found the existing law in Ireland insufficient, he would
come down to Parliament and propose other measures.—
(Hear, hear.) He now called upon that Noble Earl to re-
deem his pledge. He told him that the present laws were
Insufficient, and could not be executed. He called upon
the Noble arl to stop that conspiracy—for conspiracy it
manifestly was—the object of which was to chase away
the Protestant people of Ireland, and make them exiles in
a foreign land, seeking that protection from strangers
which they ought to have received at home. The
consp•rators moved step by step—they did not attempt
to grasp the whole of their object at once. But it was
evident that their principal aim was the separation
of the two countries. They had already proposed
the disc la ion of that Union which had lasted two_
and-thirty years, and from which so many advantages had
resulted. Notwithstanding, however, the miserable state
in which Ireland then was—notwithstanding the al arm-
ing transactions to which lie had been alluding, he still
thought that if there existed a Government which would
take the measures that a Government onght under such
circumstances to take, a remedy might he found fimr the
evil. In the first place they ought to make the law what
it should be ; they might then consider of abolishing or
regulating th • tithes. But the first object, he repeated,
was to eat blish the power of the law. He really began
to th nk that his Majesty's Ministers were dupes to the
con-piracy which existed in Ireland against the Protes-
tant, ; fur a spirit of J suitism ran through all the mea-
sures which tey adopted with reference to Ireland
Whether it was the Irish Morn Bill. or the Irish Educa-
tion 8.11, or the Irish Proce.-ions Bill, it mattered not;
for the whole aim of those three Bills seemed to be to
strangle the Protestant interest and the Protestant people
in Ireland.—(No, no.) The Noble Lord said, No.
What sii i the Irish Reform Bill do? Did it not
deny to Protestants, on the plea, by the Right
Hon. Chi•f Secretary, of a wish to get rid of party
distinctien., the hereditary rights which it gave to others ?
Then, tiere was the Irish Education Bill. What was time
first principle of Protestant educatioa ? That the whole
Bible should be read in school's. That principle was abut -
(bated, in order to meet the wishes of Catholics and dema-
gogue.. Lastly, there was time Processions' Bill. What was
the animus of that Bil ? Did it not strike at the Pr ttestante
only? It was meant to put a stop to the Protestant Process
-ions in Ireland on the 12th of July. Such was candidly
tvowtel to be its object. Yet, while this attempt watt
made to strike at the celebration of one of the most glo-
rious events in our history, by which a Protestant 'Mo-
narch was established on the throne of these realms, the
procession had Steen permitted in England of a National
Union, of the most revolutionary character, and such as
had experi'nced the reprobation of every well-thinking
roan. The Orangemen of Ireland had, on a former need-
sion, been descr bed by some of the Ministers of the Crown
as a miserable, bigoted, and expiring faction. Were they
acquainted with the body of which they thus presumed to
streak? Did they know that it consisted of above
3,000,000 ef loyal subjects, many of whom were indivi-
duals of the highest respectability ? Was the use of such
language the way to win the affections or to allay the pas-
sions of such a body ? For himself he was bound to speak
of the Orangemen as a most valuable body, whose only ob-
jects were touih l
f
d theorh
laws,avig
n and
detainedto the r Lordships
preserve
o v apologised
• o ling, but the subject was near his heaft, and he felt
that he owed it to his country to bring her case under the
.onsideration of Parliament.—(Hear, hear, bear.) The
Noble Lord concluded by moving—" That an humble Ad-
dress be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would
take into his most gracious consideration the afflicted ante
of his Protestant subjects in Ireland, and adopt such mea-
-ures as under the distressing circumstances of the case
'night appear expedient to uphold time Protestant religion,
and to protect the lives and properties of all denominations
of his Maie•ty's Irish .ilbjeets."—( Hear, bear, hear.)
Lord Viscount MELBOURNE admitted the ability
of the Nebl Earl's statement, but observed that he had
circumstances as he had described had occurred in Ireland,
xpressed himself as if this was the first time that such
houses
t. ey were earned persons,
least Oif yearstheY
under their
etl
disordered
rLordships'e sadministeringaeno oftitchoeef. il legal
Noble 1,1)1 Earltbi :eee ns
t brought
alked
arms,
of
eizure of
sualtVp"Ahnlc''t which was rendered necessary
l':)ma;yd:r.it'elsmerneofiel 7nt
itm6esedisturbancestettn:itcesk.: in Ireland passed ; and the preamble
of that Act stated many causes of those disturbances, which
e Nobleue
s,and t
o the am
Earl attributed
o ao
cdho
iio
t o the agitation,
religiontio n
of i
he n
, t •
the
present
a -
gt
,hy. Long before a demagogue existed in Ireland, and at
period when the Roman Catholic religion was struck
!own to the earth, and the professors of it were told from
the Bench that it was only by connivance that they were
'flowed to breathe, Ireland was the scene of events similar
t m those which the Noble Earl bed been describing as id
-scent occurrence.—[The Noble Earl here read the pre-
imble to the Act of 1765, which recited, as the grounds
f the Act, time depredationsof the Whiteboya by night and

~ ~ ~.

C

,y day, the carrying away of horses sari arms, the al ni-
catering of sundi y oaths coot! ary to law, the sending of
t:ireatening letters, &...!.I—They all knew that from that
,mod to the present such disorders had been of frequent
recurrence. In 1806, when an A !ministration ryas in office
~,,pposed to be favourable to the claims of the Catholics,
there was the insurrection of the Thrashers, which had I ,1
to the first Insurrection Act. In 1821 and 1822, when an
Administration was in office of a mixed character—so os
favourable and some unfavourable to the Cathodic claims --
there was another insurrection of at least equal atroci C.
Horrible murders were committed at Limerick, which
inained undetected, to the utter despair of the Governme it
,if the day, who were unahle to send down a Commis-
sion from the inability to procure evidence. It was clear
that those disturbances were unconnected with political
matter. Since that time there had been a continual suc-
cession of atrocities in that country. In 1827 the Go-
vernment to wiiich he (Lord Melb mime) belonged had re-
peated applications, in consequence of various disturb incea
in Tipperary and elsewhere, for an Insurrection Act. The
Noble Duke opposite knew well that, in 1829 and 1830,
the state of the south of Ireland demanded the most serious
Mention of Government, by which, however, the same
view was taken as that which had been taken by the, pre-
sent Government. He held in his hand an application Ed
the Noble Duke from tier magistrates of Tipperary at the
period he alluded to, precisely of the same character as the
epresentation which hail been made by the Noble Ear),
and the answer of the Noble Duke took precisely the some
view of the case as that which had been taken of the pre-
sent ease by the present Government. The existing evils
hal been met by the ordinary course of the law, and mere
particularly they had been met by an increased police.
The etr-ct had been to restore the disturbed counter' to
comparative tranquillity. The Noble Viscount proceeded
to read extracts from a variety of reports from Westmeath,
the Queen's County, &c. agreeing that the number of out-
rages in those counties hail greatly diminished of late,
principally in consequence of the increased strength
of the police. The Noble Earl said some measure
ought to be adopted. What measures ? An Insurrection
Act? If that was what the Noble Earl meant, he (Lord
Melbourne) was sure the Noble Duke would not agree with
the Noble Earl ; recollecting, as he did, the arguments
which in 1829 and 1830 the Noble Duke had urged
against such a measure. The effect of any such measure
must lee temporary ; while that of the existing law, if it
could be rendered sufticiently operative, would he perma-
nent. As to the allusion made by the Noble Earl to the
circumstance of Magistrates presiding at anti-tithe meet-
ings, his Noble and Learned Friend near him would speak
to that point. With r,:'-pect to the holy turf and stray/
which had lately been sent so expeditiously about the coun-
try, it was impossible for hint to say what was the real
cause of th it proceeding. It might be the result of some
superstitious notion, produced by the awe and apprehen-
sion le—neraterThY ,the. novel circumstances of a disease,
whiek, as had been said of it, began where other dis-
eases raided. He begged to .observe, however, that the
police hid directions to pull down the turf towers He
had said,,before, and in justice to his colleagues and him-
self, beatrift repeat the assertion, that there was no dis-
position white. part of his Majesty's Government to deal
otherwise than justly and impartially towards the Protes-
tants of Ireland. Much W.:, been said by the Noble
Lord who had just sp.okistC, upon the subject of the educa-
tion of the Irish people ; that topic had been, upon so
many occasions, so fully and elaborately discussed, that he
should not trouble the House with any observations upon
a subject already so completely worn out, and one,
respecting which be believed there existed but little dif-
ference of opinion amongst impartial men. There
were, no doubt, sonic by whom it was regarded with sin-
cere feelings of apprehension, and he was as ready as any
man to concede much to the conscientious scruples of those
who dre cried injurious consequences from the present plan
of Government education ; but those who used it as an
instrument for party purposes, and with the view of cast•
ing obloquy upon the present Ministers, were certainly
not entitled to similar indulgence. Again, there could not be
a more grievous misrepresentation than to state the party
celebrations which took place in Ireland were really and
truly in honour of the great and glorious events to which
it was said tl:ey had reference. He recurred in his mind to
those events vita sentinannts of the highest triumph; he
honoured the actors in them as highly as any man living ;
hut was it believed by Noble Lords that celebrations of the
kind to which be alluded really went forward for any ode
purpose than that of endeavouring to revive the ascend-
ancy which one party once enjoyed over the other, and the
effect of them merely to irritate the Roman Catholics ? It
was really very strange to hear the Noble Lord charging it
against the present Government, that tbey discouraged
those party associations and proceedings. Had they net
equally been discouraged and disapproved of by the Govern"
nvireensetnotf 11 efi momento ble
to Dbuek e
fooupnid,o s te 2 Were he
letters
n,ttetnbrve uo at
Sirt
Henshrie
Hardinge while Secretary for Ireland, dismissing Yeo-
manry Officers from their command, for no other offence
than that of attending Orange processions? Therefore it
could be made with no sort of justice a ground of complaint
specially against the present Government, that they encou•
raced proceedings of that nature. Previous to the 12th of
July and sth of November, there were generally in every
year many conferences held in the Castle at Dublin, with
the view, if possible, of preventing the precessions, or at
least of rendering them less mischievous thin they had
heretofore proved. On one of these occasions he remem-
bered having met an officer of some rank in the army, who
had retired on his fortune in Ireland. To him were re-
presented the destructive consequences of persevering in
such practices, and the danger to the public peace, with
which they were fraught. His reply to that was, “Really
those people planted and dug his potatoes and reaped his
corn—that they would not continue those services to him
if he refused to head, and be the consequences what they
might, he could not so far disregard his own interest as to
change his conduct in that respect."—(Hear, hear.) Nei-
ther in education nor in anything else, and, least of all
in the matter of the Party Processions' Bill, was there any
intention of doing injury to the Protestants of Ireland, and
with that general dig laitner he should contest himself,
confident that the House could never be induced to con.
sent to such a motion as the present.

The Duke of WELLINGTON had listened with great
anxiety to try if he could discover from the statement of
the Noble Lord what were the intentions of his Majesty's
Government with respect to the future management of
that part of the united kiugdorn to which the motion re'
(erred ; hut, instead of any such thing, he found the
statement of the Noble Lord embraced little more than
two topics—one of these consisted of a comparison be'
:ween the pa.t and present state of Ireland ; the other
was an attempt to show Ilia many of the counties where
it was alleged that disturbances had taken place, were
really in a most peaceable and tranquil condition. It was
perfectly true that the sr ite of Inland had been at marl
periods disturbed ; but it was equally true that those time
of disturbances had been interrupted by long and frequent
intervals of prosperity and tranquillity. As to the leaner
,isturbances which front time to time had taken place i°
Ireland, he should say, and that without the slightest fear
of contradiction, that they were trifling compared with
the scenes of which that country was now unhappily the
theatre. Heretofore the tranquillity of Ireland was pre',
•erved by a force of very trifling amount indeed, comp,red
with—he knew not how many thousands—of police en
monfilit thea military
amount uoltpwl tnh that
h Housec')un
t could form n
notion. From 1805, when the Catholic Question first
etme to be agitated to 1829, when it was finally settled,
it was well known to Noble Lords that the utmost excite'
,vent and agitation prevailed ; but then at length the Ce'
tholic Question was settled, and a real grievance red
ry, and at a
no adequate
expense
inured. No doubt, the passing of that measure at
not produce complete tranquillity, but, nevertheless, the
eountry was excessively tranquil compared with what it
had been since. He begged the House to remember, that
in 1829 a measure was agreed to by both Houses of Per'
11,,iiriaefdlontoielt,tnliostn,gfiriweioetclfnigidceiilelicirrNfueeitoentitt,oelelevige::0;idetaeyt,ttawoshrilee.enlgiiaewirnadsbe,derin,pottlhhi
taeitce,swltiim,reigfalhti;t:.
of the parties themselves, a real grievance. From that
period an classes of his Majesty's subjects were placed tWe
they left the Association Ae
in full force, and a proelatnation had at that moment bee°
ssued by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for the puree
if carrying that Act into execution. At the very tini
roat the Noble Earl opposite and his friends took possesei°”„e
~f office, they found that Act in full force, and the pre'
clarnation of the Lord Lieutenant operating at the trio'
:nen% When the Bill was first introduced, or rather soot)
itecnerigwashttti
hitelan,aet,cl
ecieznetilv:t:tmliateinerrnc,ett oonifideportio :tea,
procure
stated
repealthat
f that
Act;hoadd
at
yet, when the Proclamation had been issued, and was in
imrchi
repress rpesoswdeirs't disturbance still
odridtol;
flume any just cause of tended
tcnctpeoplaint. The present state °'
hings not only rendered the property of the Church in'
ccure, but also that of individuals ; and when pertoea
sat their property, they had a right to demand that mean.
e its rted to for uff :riling them compensation. VP t°
e present moment, Government had taken no notie
whateverm
ted
ofr convicted,
hteiatt le h
i s t ur:(7
been pardoned nces, and ofe
dby
four
al been the
Lord. Lieutenant, and that in the vain expeetatw-
hat them would he no opposition to tithes there
,(ter. In such a state of things, he declared that he
odd not understand the policy which refused to the Nob
la"
~orda the powers requisite 'for enabling them to afford pro'

~.Ri
.~

,~..,

tection to his Majesty's subjects in life and property.
Amongst other things which he desired should be remem-
bered, he wished this to he particularly borne in mind--
that he had apprised the Noble Lord opposite that the As-
sociation Act would expire in 1831, and the answer re-
ceived from the Noble Lord was, that he intended to pro-
pose its continuance. Parliament w is then dissolved, and
there was no time to think of renewing Acts of Parlia-
ment. When Parliament assembled again, meeting the
same administration still in power, one would have sup-
posed, he thought, that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland
would have desired at least to possess the power which
that afforded, if he could have nothing else, and then the
question about renewal was put once more; and the reply
was, that his Majesty's Government did not intend to have
recourse to any extraordinary means for maintaining the
tranquillity of that part of the United Kingdom. Now
the facts as they at present stood answered the question
whether or not that was a wise decision. At the present
moment there is nothing like security for person or pro-
perty in Ireland. There was no man who looked at the
state of Ireland could for a moment deny that the occur.
rences now going on in that country were the result of a
conspiracy. This he asserted and could prove. The con-
dition of Ireland was the result of that conspiracy,
and nothing else. The object of that conspiracy
was to deprive a large class of that security to
their lives and property which they had enjoyed
under all former Governments, and, if not arrested in its
progress, the effect of the conspiracy would be, not only to
destroy all property, but to overturn all Government.
What he desired was, that the Administration of the King,
and the public at large, should be put in possession of the
real nature of the conspiracy now going forward. It was
but within a short time that a clergyman endeavoured to
effect a sale of distress in order to enforce the payment of
that which was justly his due ; the first day of the contem-
plated sale there were 20,000 persons present, the second
day 50,000, the third day 100,000, with a body of troops
placed opposite, and the whole matter was given up, and
eventuelly no sale took place. He should be glad to hear
how all that had occurred without an extensively organized
conspiracy, and who could be the authors of that conapi
racy except the Roman Catholic priests? He trusted the
House would not give ground for having it said that there
existed no power in Parliament to protect the lives and
properties of his Majesty's subjects. The King had espe-
cially sworn to protect the property of the Church ; but
even the property of the Church NV as not alone at stake—
what did the Noble Earl say to the lay impropriators ?
There was no blinking the question; means must be de-
vised and acted upon promptly to protect the property of
the people of Ireland. The time hid been when the
Irish people had something like a grievance of which to
complain; but tithes were no public grievance—they
Were property, and should at all times be treated as such.
He well recollected the able and eloquent defence for
the Magistrates of Manchester made by the Noble and
Learned Lord opposite, and he begged to learn with what
consistency that Noble and Learned Lord could now st end
up and censure the conduct of the Magistrates at Mallow
and at Cork ? Noble Lords opposite talked of the effu-
lion of blood. The object of his Noble Friend who had
brought forward the present motion was to stop the effu-
sion of blood, and to preserve human life. Their object
Was, by legislative means, to prevent the use of force arid
violence—to prevent the use of arms against crowds and
mole—he wanted that the conspirators should be gotten
the better of, and not the people. He wished, before lie
Proceeded further, to put one question. Had the Tithe
Act been enforced by the present Government in any one
instance ? If the Clergy were to be paid out of the Con-
solidated Fund, he wished to know how the public were
to be remunerated for that diversion of the public funds
from their legitimate purposes? He now came to a par.
or the subject which was particularly painful to him, for
it involved a high degree of blame to the present Govern-
ment, as respected both policy and justice. Their con
duct towards the Members of the Established Church, arid
there was no one who wished well to the connexion sub-
sisting between England and Ireland—there was no one.
who desired to see the basis of union widened between the
two countries—who would ever wish to see the Pro-
testants of Ireland estranged from the Government,
or ever wish to see them look elsewhere for counte-
nance and support. He entreated the attention of his
Majesty's Government to the present temper of that
portion of the Irish people. He begged to remind them
that it was not yet too late, and that it probably never
would be too late, to gain the Pe otestant mind of Irel Ind.
He begged of them w do all that yet remained for them to
do, in order to regain for England the firm friendship of
the Protestant people of Ireland. With these remarks
he should content himself, and if the question solely de-
pended upon him, he should not press it to a division.
The Duke of CUMBERLAND—We, however, have
not said that we will not press for a division.
Lord PLUNKETT thought he had some reason to
complain that the Noble Lord had thought proper to visit
upon the present Government all the vices and misfortunes
which previous Governments had brought upon that coml.
try for centuries past. The Noble Lord had directed his
complaints against two classes of crime, which he said
prevailed in Ireland. The first was a conspiracy, which
interfered with the enjoyment of all property--.which as-
Sailed the dominion over land. Now he would appeal to
any one who heard the Noble Lord, to say whether the
effect of his observations was not to impress the minds of
all who heard him with the belief that those offences were,
in every instance, committed by Catholics against Protes-
tants. He would not say that that was unfair, since such
an expression would seem to convey some imputation upon
the Noble Earl, but this he would say, that it was mist
unfounded. The Noble Earl had said that the effect of the
present system of his Majesty's Government would be to
drive from Ireland every Protestant, and banish them
for ever from their native soil. He would ask the Noble
Duke whether he joined with the Noble Earl in that
assumption ; and if he did, upon what ground he had
brought himself to do so? True it was that the Noble
Earl had read letters from private individuals, but what
did they prove? Could documents so utterly uncut' en-
ticated prove any thing ? Had any one of them been veri-
fied by affidavit? Could the Noble Lord upon such
geounds, before Parliament. and in the face of the country,
think himself justified in bringing forward such accu-
sations as the House had just then heard ? On the part
of the people of Ireland, and especially on the part of the
Catholics, many of whom he knew, he begged to deny the
existence of any such conspiracy. It was really absurd
to talk of a conspiracy of nearly a whole nation against a
very small portion of its inhabitants. He found it difficult
to comprehend how such a line of argument could be con-
sistently pursued,unless it was intended to reagitate the old
debates upon the Catholic claims; and with all his expe-
rience of public life, it dic' surprise him that any assertion
so gross and monstrous should have passed the lips of
any one. He would put the thing on this footing—was
the present resistance to tithes a Protestant or a Catholic
resistance ? How many of the Pro,estants joined in the re-
sistance? Had they not all joined it whenever it appeared
in their neighbourhood ? That was a matter of public no-
toriety, and there could not he a grosser perversion of
terms than to ascribe the present state of Ireland solely
to the Catholics. It was inconceivable to bins what
pleasure any one could take in making such gross mis-
takes, and in thus dashing the hopes of the country for
ever. From the course which the present debate took,
there was no one who heard it that would not actually ask
himself this—what hope can there be for Ireland ? Their
Lordships had heard two speeches—one from the Noble
Duke, the other from the Noble Earl—and what was the
remedy recommended by either? The Noble Earl told
them that the whole nation was in a conspiracy against a
"all portion of their fellow-subjects, and that the only
remedy for that was the resignation of the present Mini-
"'Y. After stating, as he conceived, the nature and ex-
tent of the danger, he then says that the present Ad-
Ministration must go out, or there will be no peace for
Ireland.
The Earl of RODEN—I never said an' such thing.
Lord PLUNKETT did not undertake to repeat the
exact words, though he had taken a note of them, and
might'ht, if it did not detain their Lordships, refer to that
Noble but the general purport of that observation of the
hole i
the Earl he could entertain no doubt—it ran through
symphony
of his speech—it was a species of
prelude or
ornfsong—( before he entered upon the full tide
A laugh)--hut the scope and tendency ad-
Med of no doubt—according to the Noble Earl, the
source of the complaint could by nn manner of means be
deemed problematical. It was all to be traced to the one fact,
that the present Ministers were in office, and if they would
Only have the goodness to go out, all might yet be peace •
able and happy in Ireland. But after all, would that ac-
complish the object which the Noble Earl had in view ? If
an effective administration could be formed of other mate-
rials, it would not surprise him to hear the Noble Earl use
such language as had just fallen from him ; but he should
have thought that the Noble Err! might have taken such
counsel from recent events as would lead him not to anti-
cipate much beneficial change from the resignation of the
present advisers of the crown. If there existed this al-
leged conspiracy on the part of the Rotnan Catholics in
Ireland, to overturn the Protestant interest in that coun-
try, if his Majesty's Alinisters suffered themselves to be
Made the dupes of such a plan, then the motion should at
once have been to address the King to dismiss the present
Alinieters from his Majesty's Councils.—(Cheers from the
Ministerial Benches.) lie would take the liberty of
denying the assumption which had prevailed throughout

the argument. The Noble Lord talked as if the Protes-
tants of Ireland were united against the present Ministry.
!Int this was not the case. There was a certain party in
Ireland, who thought themselves entitled to call themselves
exclusively the Protestants of Ireland.—(Cheers.) If it was
said that this Noble Marquess, or that Noble Lord—this
Gentleman, or the other Gentleman was a Protestant,
their answer was, " Aye, but his principles are just a
Fud as if he were not one ;" and this was their logic—
Every Protestant must be an enemy to the present
Administration, therefore every man who is not an enemy
to the present administration, cannot be a Prot.stant."—
(Laughter.) He believed that there was a large and
honest party in the country, both of Protestants and Ca-
tholics—lud he founded his assertions on a long and
extensive experi-nce and acqoaintmee with all parties and
classes of men—he bereve 1 that there was a great party
,ioth of Protestants and Catholics disposed to support the
Government of the country.—(Cheers.) It was the duty
of the Government to identify themselves with that sound
and honest party in the country.—( Hear, hear, from both
sides.) He hoped the Government would have the cou-
rage to join themselves with that sound and honest party,
and rely for support, not on any faction" but draw upon
that great fund or probity and good sense which existed to
so great an extent amongst the people of England and of
Ireland. He believed that his Noble Friend would have
the courage and honesty to • draw upon that fund.—
(Cheers.) The Noble Duke had alluded to the past his-
tory of Ireland, and said that he could not institute any
comparison between the former periods of dis•tribarice and
,he present. In former times the crimes and disturbances
of the Roman Catholics were caused by their having a
erievance, whereas at present they had nine. He was
glad the Noble Duke had placed concession to the Rum in
Ca holies on its true grounds.

The Duke of WELLING FON begged pardon of the
Noble Lord ; but he did nat say they had no grievance, but
that they cou'd not state tithes to be a just grievance.
Lord PLUNKETT—But they always consider they
have a grievance.

The Duke of WELLINGTON—I did not quate their
words but my own.
Lord PLUNKETT said, hut if they thought they had
a grievance, that, according to the Noble Duke's own
theory, was sufficient to explain these revolutionary move-
ments—and as the Noble Duke must see that revolutionary
movements did take place, he could not, in the teeth of
his own doctrine, deny the existence of a grievance. He
agre-d wi'h the Noble Duke, that property ought not to
be invaded ; but there was a feeling amongst the people
very generally—indeed, they were almost unanimous—
that tithes were a great gri-ivance. 0 ijections hail been
raised to the conduct of his Noble Friend, the Lord Lieu-
tenant. It was charged against his Noble and G ill tnt
Friend, that he, at first, cried out against the Proclama-
tion Bill, and afterwards availed himself of it. Now, th,
Noble Marquess night think the measure unwi-e, imp°.
litic, and even unconstitutional, and, on those grounds,
oppose its being passed into a law; yet, having once re-
ceived the sanction of the Legislature, he was bound to
obey it—and there was no reason why lie should not make
use of it when those circumstances occurred against which
it was intended to provide.—(Hear, hear.) He found
the Proelam ttinn Act in force when he assumed the Go•
vernment of Ireland—h.s predecessor hail issued procl -
mations under it, and lie found it answered well. Ttie
Noble :Marquess, in succeeding the Noble Duke (North
umberland), made use of it, and, in his opinion, he was
very right so to do. He did not apply on the sutisequent
Session for its renewal; whether he was right or not
in doing so, he would not presume to say, his only
object was to justify his Noble Friend from the charge
of inconsistency.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the
complaint made against the Node 1I it-guess for p irdoning
some individuals convicted of joining in an outrage, it ap-
peared on investigation that these men had been mainly
instrumental in preventing the mob from proce-ding to
personal violence; and the farmers promised, that if the
Government would pardon those men, they would imtne-
diately pay up the tithes, which, having done, the Noble
Marquess, considering all the circumstances, granted them
a pardon. What fair ground of complaint had they
against his Noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant ? He chal-
lenged them from the beginning to the end of the tithe
disturbances to point out any one instance in which the
Lord Lieutenant refused to give the most prompt and
effectual aid to every person applying for assistance.—
(Cheers.) If he had done so in any one instance, let the
documents be referred to, and the ease pointed out. The
opponents of tithes had acted upon a new plan. They did
not violate the law, they slid they would not pay tithes,
but that in itself was no violation of the law. They said
that the parson might come if he chose and distrain their
goods ; but when the parson distrained lie found nobody
to buy. What could the Government do in such a case ?
Government could not become the auctioneer, nor find
buyers. The case in the county of Cork had been
referred to by the Noble Duke. Why, how did it stand
between the Government and the parson ? The parson
saj s, Will you give ine assistance ?"—The Government
says, " Can you find buyers?"—" Yes."—" An auc-
tioneer ?"—" Yes." The Government gives assistance ;
a great body of people are assembled, but not one buyer
can be found. The parson is unable to fulfil that part of
the contract for which he stipulated. What was to be
done? Were the troops to remain there to the end of
time? No ; that was impossible; and the consequence
was, the distress was driven back, and the party escaped.
Every case that had occurred had been maturely considered
by the person who occupied the office of public prosecutor
in Ireland ; and if in any case a prosecution could have
been instituted, it would have been immediately com-
menced. Government could not do more than they had
done ; they had no other alternative except that of attack-
ing the multitude as dangerous to the public peace—an
alternative which he would not do the Noble Duke the in-
justice of supposing him capable of contemplating. In some
of the cases of outrage, the Al igistrates had declared they
would not act without the Insurrection Act ; to this,
however, the Government was most strongly op-
posed. The Noble Lord then passed a warm sole_
glum on the Administration of the Marquess of Welles-
ley. He had resolved to resort to extreme measures
only in case of absolute necessity. He was aware that
Magistrates were men with human passions—he would
not put the people into the keeping of angry Magistrates,
and deprive them of the protection of a Jury. If a victory
w•-re to be gained only by a succession of such measures
as these, its fruits were not worth the expense. It the
Magistrates would not act—if they would not make use of
the powers vested in them—the Lord-Lieutenant must. He
had enforced the law as he had found it--and had, by
proving it effectual in some cases, induced the Magistrates
to do their duty. He spoke thus particularly of the county
of Clare. What was the case in Limerick—in Ruscotn-
mon—he believed io Tipperary ?
A NOBLE LORD —Gborg II I .
Lord PLUNKETT—In Glengall, every man at all in-
terested in the affairs of Ireland, was bound to thank the
Noble Marquess, and was deeply indebted to him for the
line of conduct which he had adopted.—(Cheers.) But
such declarations from Magistrates were not confined to
the present administration. The Magistrates of Tipperary
made a similar declaration in 1829; and he believed that
during the administration of the Noble Duke it hap-
pened again and again—but nevertheless the Noble
Duke did not think it right to give way to so unreason-
able a deinaand. The Noble Lord then proceeded
to c the attention of the Howse to a letter of Sir
Henry H irdinge, written in 1830. The letter stated
that a Protestant had been murdered as he was returning
from church in the evening—this was one of those case
on which some of the Noble Lords were in the h ibit of
dilating as instances of atrocity peculiar to Ireland, and to
be ascribed solely to Catholic partisanship—but, though
murder was very shocking, yet similar cases constantly oc-
curred in England. The Magistrates in that case were
intimidated by threats. The witnesses did their duty, and
lodged an information against the criminals, but the gal-
lant Magistrates did not dire to commit—and wi-re those
Magistrates to I,e charged with conspiracy ? A meeting
of Magistrates was convened ; they, however, declined to
do their duty, but called on the Government to do theirs;
and these worthy people were those who s'yled themselves
exclusively the Protestants of Ireland, and against whom
the Government was alleged to be in a state of conspiracy.
--(Hear, hear.) He wisuld give another specimen of this
exclusively Protestant party, and their respect for the
laws. Tire Noble Lord then proceeded to read another
letter, dated 9th June last, which stated that the anti-edu•
cationists h,d at last resorted to physical force against one
of the new schools.—(Cries of " War.") They forciiily
ejected the master and boys—tore down the title of " Na-
tional S,illool," destroyed the reading lesson, which, as
their Lornships probably knew, was published, and con-
tained only those pure doctrines of the Christian faith in
which all sects agreed.
The Eirl of RODEN asked where the letter was
from ?

Lord PLUNKETT would ❑ot mention at that moment;
he might tell the Noble Earl presently. The chief patron
of the school applied to a neighbouring Magistrate for re-
dress, but he flatly refused him, alleging as a reason, that
he had sold a Bible.—(A laugh.) He could not help
congratulating the Noble Lord on the progress which the
n,,w system of education was making in Ireland, in spite
of every obstacle, and he hoped that it would tend ma-
terially to soften down and destroy that spirit of party by
which Ireland was at present so unhappily agitated.
With regard to the cry respecting the holy turf, he did

not think it arose from superstition ; but that it was a
means e,f intimidating the Government. The Roman
Catholic , Archtaishcip, Dr. Murray, had published an Ail-
ilrer;deprecating its folly. But there was no ground what-
ever for charging it on the priesthood. ' Only one or two
had been seen in casual communication with the carriers
;if the holy turf ; but he believed one of the chief object,
was, to show the facility with which they could commani.
rate with and combine all parts of the country. Noble
Lords complained of these combinations, and asked hew
they were called into action. He would say that these corn_.
hinations were made by refusing to carry the Roman
Catholic question in 1825. He lid not intend to trouble
their Lordships at much length ; hut there was a certain
part of the question which related principally to himself
as Chancellor. The charges against him were twofold
list, the placing improper persons in the magistracy, and
iismissing proper ones. None, however, were particu-
larized, except the case of Captain Graham, which he I
would reserve till the last. There was a person who was
said to have used improper language at a tithe meeting,
stimulating the people to acts of violence. He presumed
that the Noble Lord rererred to the case of Mr. Ruthven.
The Earl of RODEN did not. Mr. Coppinger was
one of the persons alluded to.
Lord PLUNKETT said, as we understood, that the
case of Nlr. Ruthven, to which he had alluded, and which
had taken place in the county of Dublin, the language
made use of rendered that gentleman liable to prosecution.
That being the case, he felt it his duty not to interfere as
Chancellor, and he believed such was the usual practice.
He appealed to the Noble Earl (Eldon), whom he saw in
his place, whether he, as' Chancellor, whenever a Magis-
trate had committed an offence for which he was subject
to a prosecution, did not invariably resist the results of
that prosecution, That he believed was the law laid
down by the Noble Earl, though he did not agree with
him in the extreme extent., as he thought there were
some cases in which the ends of justice would he better
answered by the deprivation of a magistrate upon whose
eharacter strong doubts rested, than by waiting the results
of a prosecution. Another case compl tined of was the
case of Colonel Vernor. Now, what was the real truth
of that matter? He received information that Colonel
Vernor and Mr. Carey, both maeistiates, had marched
into Dundalk at the head of 5.000 Oraneemen, with
twenty banners flying, and a variety of Orange emblems.
That was one of the processions which the Noble Lord
had lauded so highly, and described as extremely inno-
cent They were, however, anything but innocent.—
(Hear.) Their avowed purpose was the cotninemoration of
ancient glories ; but their real effect was the infliction of
present insults and injuries. If the Noble Lord would
enumerate the crimes and atrocities to which these proces-
s ons had given rise,. he would call them anything but in-
nocent. This procession met the Roman Cathoicsr—bad
language was exchanged ; and being, as was generally the
ca-e on such occasions, provided with concealed arms,
pistol shots were ti ed, and several persons severely in-
jured. Colonel Vernor alleged that be was merely by
accident driving into the town when he saw the Orange-
men, and joined them ; but it was subsequently proved on
oath, that he had met them by appointment, and remained
in conclave two hours, at which meeting they had come
to res dutions net to support the Mini-try. With what
degree of fairness, should he have acted, if this man had
not been dismissed, and if he had dismissed every magis-
trate attached to the Orange party he should have dis-
missed almost every magistrate in every county in the North
of Ireland. Had he ;awed with less impartiality, he would
had a very different eulogiurn pronounced upon him. That
even of Captain Graham was peculiar; and at the time of
the circumstance alluded to, there was no Lord-Lieutenant
in Ireland. He did not mean to accuse him of inhume-
; oity—on the contrary, had lie been on the Grand Jury,
e should most probably have come to the same decision.
But he had clearly acted illegally, and there was so strong
a feel'ng against him throughout the country, that he
(Lord Plunkett) felt it his duty not to continue him in the
in Lgistracy. Captain Graham had called out the yeomanry
on his own authority, which was decidedly against law.
The law in this respect was different in England and in
I eland. There were two Acts of Parliament, one for
England and one for Ireland, both passed on the same
day ; the one was the .12r1 Geo. 111 , ch. 66, the other
the 42d Geo. M., ch. 68, and in Ireland the power of
calling out the yeomanry was expre sly confined to the
Lord Lieutenant. The military were difficult to restrain,
but the yeomanry much more so. The law wisely pro-
vided against this, and the evils which it contemplated
were consequent upon its infraction.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of CALEDON begged to call to the recol-
lection of the Learned Lord, that William Vernor had de-
nied that he hail headed the assembly alluded to, and be
(Lord C) could not avoid remarking, that when a gentle-
' man denied a charge, it was scarcely fair to repeat it
without having instituted farther inquiry. He would
support the motion, although he regretted the use of the
word " afflicted" in it. He did not consider the Protest-
ants in the North an afflicted body„
The Earl of ELDON had always thought that the
powers of the common law had never been sufficiently
applied, either in the case of the Catholic Emancipationists
or in other cases. The combination not to pay tithes,
he maintained, was absolutely illegal. The letter set
forth in the first report of the Tithe Committee, was an
illegal act, and might have been punished at common law
—and the combination might have been suppressed at its
commencement, and the leaders severely punished. He
contended that much of the disturbances in the country
proceeded from the remissness of the Government in en-
forcing the law. Why were men who were condemned
for exciting resistance to the payment of tithes, suffered
to go unpunished? Why had there not been a more
effectual prosecution of an Hon. arid Learned Member of
the other House ? The Noble and Learned Lord con-
cluded by repeating his assertion that the anti-tithe com-
bination might have been put down in the commence-
ment by the power of comtnon law—which would have
been found much more effectual than the Noble and
Learned Lord's appeal to the common sense of the people.
The Earl of WICKLOW was glad that he had an op
portunity of hearing chat able advocate, whom the Mini-
stry found it necessary to bring over from Ireland to
fight their battle. They had now heard his arguments,
advanced with all due subtlety and forensic skill—aided by
all the knowledge he had brought with him from Ireland,
and certainly with great respect for the character of the
Noble and Learned Lord-3 more feeble effort he had
never witnessed.—(Cheers from both sides.) He was
glad to learn from the cheers of the Noble Lords oppo-
site that they could be satisfied so easily—(Laughter)—
since they were content to leave the vindication of their
conduct to the success of an effort than which he had
never heard any so feeble from any Member of any Mini-
nistration.—(He ir, hear.) At that late hour he did not
propose to follow the Learned Lord through all his obser-
vations ; he woual merely advert to a few. And first, he
could not see how lie (Lord Plunkett) justified himself
against the charge of partiality in keeping in office Magi.
strates who had been clearly tuilty of an illegal act, by
stating that he had not dismissed others who were not
guilty of an illegal act ; for to march in procession with
Orangemen was not an illegal act. The production of Mr.
Stanley's Bill proved this. And next, in reply to his quer.
tiara of what the Lord Lieutenant ought to have done, he
(Lord W.) would tell him hi the words of another part of
his (Lod Plunkett's) speech, that he ought to have allied
hitu,elt with the kvealthy,the loyal, anti the respectable, to put
down the disturbers of the public peace, who consisted of
the !owes' rabble, led on by the priests and demagogues.
He attributed the present wretched state of Ireland to the
supineness and ill judged measures of the Ministry. He
alluded to one of the early instances of resistance to the
payment of tithes in Kilkenny, where two men were con-
victed of a breach of the I aw. The Government remitted
their sentence. It was in a spirit of gross truckling to the
lowest rabble that they were induced to pursue this course.
And in reference to the case of Captain Graham, he would,
now that he was in possession of all the facts, deliberately
declare that a grosser act of injustice had never been corn-
'flitted in the most depotic country in the world, than was
the dismissal of this Gentleman. Captain Owen had in-
formed him (Lord W.) that Mr. Stanley bad directed
him to arm the yeomanry. When he last spoke on this
subject, he (Land W.) had supposed that Mr. Stanley
had consid. red it would be as well to make them
special constables. But upon his statement to this
effect, Captain Owen hail written to him to say that Mr.
Stanley's recommendation was to use the yeomanry,
and, added he, " might you not swear in special con-
stables?" The Noble Lord then stated, that his opinion
was, that the yeomanry were bound to obey the orders of
the Magistrates, and in co, roboration of this he read the
preamtile and certain extract, from the 37th Geo. HI.
Much doubt, however, existed on the subject, and he called
upon the Government to set the matter at rest, and declare
what the law really was. La reply to the Noble Lord's
compariaan of the state of Ireland now with its state on
the accession to office of the present Government, he con-
tended that Ireland was comparatively tranquil and happy
under the Administration of the Duke of Wellington, but
now society was nearly reduced to its first principles—
every man felt that his protection depended not upon the
strength of the law, but upon the possession of physical
force. In his own neighbourhood, he %you'd state the fact,
that all the Protestants were arming. They had come
into the county town in such numbers to register arms,
mat it was found necessary to adjourn the Quarter Ses-
sions because the business could not so on.
The Marquess of LANSDOWNE admitted that, if the

Learned Lord's effort MS feehle, the effort of the Noble
Earl, by the same rule, must be extremely powerful. As tr.
Captain Graham, he had acted from the best intention,.
but With singular indisrretion—he had violated the law :
and if he had bee❑ suff.red to continue in the commissior
.af the peace, the worst consequences might have been ap-
orehended from the irritation which it would produce.
He contended that the yeomanry could only be called ou•
iy the Magistrates to act in cases of apprehension of in-
vasion—not of riot. There was this just and proper dis-
tinction between Irish and English acts. He protested
against those ills which had resulted from a long course of
misgovernment, being attributed to the conduct of the
present administration. He defied any body to show the
act Government had done which it ought to have left un-
lnne—or the act which it left undone which it ought to
have done for the tranquillization of Ireland. On the
contrary, Noble Lords opposite had opposed the only
rsractical system of general eduction ever proposed for
Ireland.—(Loud cheers)—ani it could scarcely be de-
nied, that the hest mode of preventing outraze and pro-
ducing tranquillity was by disseminating a sound and
moral education as extensively as possible. There was
evidence of the benefit that was to be expected from
education, given before the Committees in 1824 and 1825.

For proof of the advantages of extended knowledge, and
of the evils occasioned by ignorance among the Irish pea-
santry, let them look to the reports of what was said on
this subj-ct by Dr. Burney and Lord Kingston. But it
was no longer a question whether the Government would
give the people of Ireland education, or whether they
would not, for it was certain that people would have edu-
cation in some way or other. The best way was, to se-
cure the means of giving the people the education they
might receive with advantage. At present, he believed
that for every regular schoolmaster there were twenty
hedge-schoolmasters. The things taught by these people
were most noxious, and the books they circulated among
the young were bad. Yet, rather than consent to the sys-
tem of education which the Government proposed, and
which would only omit one or two passages that were
considered objectionabh., there were Noble Lords who
would continue the present mischievous system—a system
which was a never-failing s iurce of disloyalty, supersti-
tion, and ignorance, and who would then come down to

that House and reproach the people of Ireland for their
ignorance of that very knowledge from which these very
Noble Lords so carefully withheld them.—(Heir, hear.)
The Noble Duke and the others who had spoken on the
tame side, were shy to say that they wanted the Insurrec-
tion Act for Ireland. Yet he knew that by some persons
it had, at least on former occasions, been demanded. He
believed there was good documentary evidence to show"
that Magistrates had pressed for new and extraordiniry
powers, and that threats had been given, that unless some
extreme measures were conceded, the support of the patty
would be withheld from the Government. It was true

that these applications had not been made to the present
Government, but there was good documentary evidence
to show that they had been made to the last, and he must
add, that to the honour of the Noble Duke they had been
uniformly refused. If there was one mm, therefore, on
whom the present Government were entitled to rely for
support in a question of this sort, it was the Noble Duke,
who had himself been applied to for the purpose of obtain-
ing from him the concession of extr 'ordinary powers, and
who hail been strengthened in his refusal by the sup-
port which the Noble Earl, now at the head of the
Government, then afforded him. He repeated, that
the Noble Earl had first set the honourable exarnpl-
of opposing such an indecent application. The• ordi-
nary course of law, if the law was vigorously en-
forced, would he sufficient, and it was the first duty
of the Government to enforce the law vigorously.
There was a Noble Earl opposite, who, though he did not
ask for the Insurrection Act, spoke of making the law what
it ought to he. It was to be hoped that Noble Lords,
before they voted for the motion now under consideration,
would satisfy themselves what the law was, and whether
there had been any fastidiousness on the part of Govern..
ment in making it strong enough for the protection of
those who required its aid, or in devising laws to meet the
difficulties presented by the existing state of Ireland. He
should state, from the most authentic source, from a high
legal authority, what was the present condition of the
law; and be thought that no one would then deny that
the law was in its•-If strong enough, if possible, to be en-
fore d. The Noble Marquess here referred to the 10th
Geo. IV. c. 34, by which, in case of offences against the
person, all violent assaults were punished with tranapor.
tation. In the same manner was punished the admister-
ing of unlawful oaths, and the Judges dui not hesitate to
enforce it ; for one man who was murdered, but whose
evidence had been previously taken, was held sufficient to
convict 14 men on the following day. In the same
manner, any combination, to induce a man to send
away his servants, was punished by transportation.—
A heavy punishment was, likewise, provided for those
who sought or solicited or conspired for such a purpose.
Offences against property were provided for by the 9th
Geo. IV. ; and then as to associations—in the first place,
illegal associations were punished—next the having of un-
registered arms—and the attempt to form these associa-
tions was punished with transportation. A combination
to defraud the Clergy of the tithes, or to obstruct their
collection, was to be punished with imprisonment and
whipping. After reading this catalogue of the laws as
they now s'ood, the House would probably wonder with
him at the demand of the Noble Earl to make the laws as
they ought to be. He thought he had a right to call on
the Noble Lord to state the specific Act which he required.
Would he move it, or could he show that any of those
which wire now in force were not properly enforced?
Temperately, but firmly and regularly, were they enforced.
He defied the Nrrble Earl to show that that was not the
case. He declared that he knew no instance in the his

tory of that unhappy country in which the course of jus-
tice had been more steady in its application than it hid
been in the present year. He was equally prepared to
assert that there had been no want of honesty or courage
on the part of witnesses or Juries, and there never had
been a greater number of convictions under si-
milar circumstances. Did the Noble Lord want the In-
sutrection Act and military punishment ; and did they be-
lieve that such a course would produce as good an effect
upon the minds of the people as the punishment of offen.
ders by the regular course of the law? The people of
that country well knew the difference between justice and
injustice, and between proceedings according to and against
law. As a proof of this, he might mention that frequent
as were the instances of attempts to assassinate Magistrates
who had aced under the Insurrection Act, there was
scarcely one instance of the kind against Jurymen who had
convicted prisoners in the constitutional discharge of their
duty.—(Hear, hear.) In Clare, in the Queen's county,
and in Galway, there was not an instance of the acquittal
of rioters; and the commissions which had been sent into
those counties had had the effect of putting down discord
and restoring confidence. He had property in the Queen's
County; and, because be wished to preserve that pro-
perty, he felt most deeply indebted to the Noble Marquess,
the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, for the firmn-ss and the
moderation, which was the best ally of firmness, that he
had shown on this occasion. There were those who re-
sided in that county, and who felt in the same manner.
He had bad a letter to that effect from a Magistrate, who
hail once held different opinions, and wished for extraordi-
nary powers, but who now admitted that the measures of
the Government bad changed his opinion, because he saw
that they bad restored confidence to the people. It
was now, however, a charge made against the Go-
vernment, that they had omitted to enforce their
own Act for the collection of tithes. Why, the No-
ble Lord who made the charge must see by the Act
that the time had not yet come to enforce it ; hut
every prep tration had been made to enforce the law, and
when the time arrived at which it could he enforced, he
would see it enforced. He conjured the House to pause
beiore they recommended the Gov,rnment either to violate
the law by a stretch of power, or to seek from Parliament
new powers unknown to the Constitution. He would tell

them what was the opinion of the Learned Lord Chief Jus-
tice of the Court of King's Bench in Ireland : he said,
" Some of those who were disgusted and alarmed by the
progress of insurrection, and who were impatient of the
popular fee:ing, might like such measures (he meant the
Insurrection Act), and might feel some apprehensions at
ihir present mode of pros-eding, while the more audacious
and infamous wretches who were novr:confederated against
the peace of the country, and who taught their inferior
followers to despi e a power they had never felt, might re
present the law as unable to check their proceedings; but
he hoped that both parties would take counsel from those
who had lived before them, and they would than find what
a fearful thing it was to live in a country d-prived of the
henefits of those laws which, while they restrained, pro-
tected and cherished the liberties of the subject.—(Hear,
hear.) It was not unnatural that those who suffeied
should wish the the time might arrive, when, by any
means, the tranquillity they so ardently desired might be
restored. Bui, on the other hand, every man who loved
the constitution of his country, would expect that the Le
gislature would pause to the last moment, and almost be-
yond the last moment, before they adopted that course which
all experience had proved the most distant from that from
which was to be expected the final pacification of the
country. Extreme measures had only produced tem.
porary tranquillity—these premature attempts at control•
ling excitement had ever failed, and he, therefore, again
and again, as a man as well a Minister, thanked the Lord.
Lieutenant for the course which be had pursued. He