The Sun.
London, England, 1835-06-27 00:00:00

SLIN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JUNE 27, 1835.

consideratldn dr the liotise.—( Loud cheers.) I know that in
approaching this part of the subject I run the double risk of
shocking what I think the untenable notions of one party, and
perhaps of falling short of what I might equally consider the
too high-flown expectations of another, inasmuch as while we
deny the inviolability of Church property, we are determined to
maintain the existence, and, we hope, together with the exist-
ence the efficiency, of a Church Establishment even in Ire-
land. We have to deaL I With a edaditinti, pr things
which, in the pf66iit state of public opinion, would have pre-
cluded any sane man from endeavouring to found there, of all
things hard to begin afresh, a Protestant Episcopal Church ;
but finding it there, with all its long prescription, interwoven
as it is with so much of the civil polity of our country, we are
not prepared either to uproot its foundations or destroy its
frame-work ; and yet so absolutely convinced am I of the
anomalous and partial ground upon which, on the clearest
evidence, it is now established, that I feel sure you must con-
sent to modify—if you mean at least that any human power
shall preserve it.—( Cheers.) There has been a very strong,
and perhaps, to a certain extent, yet unanswerable objection
expressed against any precise specification of numbers, espe-
cially when any result supposed to be very desirable by other
parties, particularly in a turbulent and disordered state of so-
ciety, would be likely to ensue, on the precise numbers falling
short of the fixed point. We, therefore, endeavoured to avoid
as much as possible, any exact specification of numbers, and
in one instance in which we found it necessary to make it—at
least if we were prepared to do' anything in earnest towards
removing the glaring inconsistency which prevails between the
ecclesidstical revenues of Ireland and the duties performed,

we happily found that we were enabled to make our reference
to numbers retrospective instead of prospective. It is neces-
sary, I contend, to fix one point below which the presentation
to vacant benefices shall be suspended. If we do not do this we
shall do nothing; if we do not do this we must be still pre-
pared to keep up livings without duties, clergymen without
flocks, pay without work—in short, all the worst gains of the
sinecurist upon the worst plea of the bigot.—(Tremendous
cheering.) There is now placed upon the table the Report of
the Commissioners of Public Instruction, who, in pursuance

of the instructions delivered to them, have presented us with
a census of the population of Ireland, and the proportions of
the different religious persuasions. Now, I certainly cannot
pretend to claim for this work, nor could I for any work of the
same nature, especially if it had been concluded in so
limited a space of time as the present, the character of per-
fect and undeviating accuracy ; but I believe that, as far as
circumstances would admit, the report of this commission has
been framed in a manner which makes it as authentic and

accurate, as any document of the kind can pretend to be.
—( Hear.) For the House will observe that the basis of the
present census was the census of 1831, which census certainly
was not framed in any expectations of its ever being used to
ascertain the relative proportions of the members of the dif-
ferent religious denominations. It is therefore in that respect
liable to no imputation of partiality. The enumerators who
made this census were appointed by the magistrates in each
county—a body of men not likely to have wished to have fa-
voured any particular party, or to have taken any biased or
partial view of the subject. They were ordered to commu-
nicate with all the ministers of all religious persuasions, and
the clergy of every denomination were invited to render
their assistance. This in many casts was really yielded,
and especially, I am happy to say, by the clergy of the Esta-
blished Church, who in many cases submitted censuses of their
own, and in others actually visited every house in their respec-
tive parishes. The enumerators were directed to leave the
list open fourteen whole days for inspection. It wts then
verified upon oath ; and after it had remained open for inspec-
tion during the fourteen days, the Commissioners held a pub-
lic inquiry, at which all religious ministers of every persuasion
were invited to attend to give in their lists, and the evidence
of every Commissioner was taken in the face of the whole there
assembled. If there were likely to be any very marked inac-
curacy in the enumeration of numbers, it would certainly be
more probable to arise in the statement of places containing
a very large population, in which, of course, it is very difficult
to ascertain the fixed and precise number of inhabitants.
For instance, in the case of Belfast, i where there are 67,000
and odd inhabitants, 17,000 of whom are members of the
Established Church, it is much more likely that a mistake
would occur than in the enumeration of small parishes where
the Protestants were easily counted and few in number. In
the latter case how could the Protestant who read the list
and perceived himself omitted, forbear from coming forward,
stating the fallacy of the return, and disavowing the calumny
cast by the enumerators on the parish ? I contend, then, that
this report is entitled to be considered as authentic and accu-
rate as any census of this nature can be. I will not enter into
any minute inspection of its contents, because another and a
better opportunity will occur for doing so than is afforded by
this general statement ; it will, therefore, be sufficient to state
the general result.--( Hear.) The population of Ireland is
stated to be 7,943,940—we might almost call it 8,000,000, in
fact. Of this total the number of members of the Established
Church is 852,064 ; of Presbyterians, 642,356 ; of other Pro-
testant Dissenters, 21,808 ; and of Roman Catholics,
6,427,712 persons.—( Loud cheers.) Putting the calculation
in another form, the number of members of the Established
Church is 852,064, while the total number of Dissenters from
the Established Church is 7,091,876 persons.—(Renewed
cheering.) The distribution of the members of the Esta-
blished Church is nearly as disproportionate as their total
amount. It is well known that they are to be found in the
greatest numbers in the northern province of Ulster; and not
to enumerate other instances of the great disproportion that
prevails, I may just mention that taking the superficies of Ire-
land in acres, according to the authority of a book which I
believe is entitled to great respect on this subject—l mean
Boate's work on Ireland—the result is, that in the diocese of
Dromore there are 264 members of the Established Church
to every thousand acres ; in the diocese of Tuam but 8 mem-
bers of the Established Church to every thousand acres; in
the diocese of Clogher the members of the Established Church
are as 26 to 1 of the whole population ; while in the diocese of
Kilfenora the proportion is less than one.—( Great cheering.)
Instances Of the greatest disproportion occur in many other
cases. Now with what provision do we propose to meet these
glaring instances of disproportion, both in the total amount and
in the relative distribution in the members of the Established
Church? We shall ask the House to use its authority for
the suspension of the presentation or appointment to every
benefice in which the number of Protestants does not exceed
fifty. Before I go further I may, perhaps, be permitted to
touch, for one moment, upon a very important branch of the
subject. It may, perhaps, be asked whether in all those pa-
rishes in which the number of Protestants does not exceed
fifty, we leave the members of the Established Church that
may be resident there entirely without any means or opportu-
nities of spiritual instruction or public worship ? I have never
abnegated either here or elsewhere, on occasions previous to
to-night, my own adherence to the principles of an Established
Religion. Therefore, in introducing a measure for the regu-
lation of the religious Establishment now in existence, and in
endeavouring to adapt it to the state of society in which it is
found, while I will shrink from contemplating no curtailment
of its privileges, or distribution of its revenues, it seems to me
to be presented by the justice of the case, and of fairness to-
wards other bodies—while I will be scared by no such names
as confiscation, spoliation, and sacrilege—so long as I consider
myself fully justified—yet as a Protestant, as a churchman, I
do feel the highest satisfaction when I think I can combine,
without prejudice to what is fair and equal towards all parties,
any special adherence either to 'the faith which I profess, or to
that form of religious establishment to which I belong. I will
take now one of the ivorst instances, though not, as I have
means of showing, a solitary instance in Ireland. I will take
the case of a parish in which there is no glebe-house—no
church—no churchman ; and even in this spot, if some member
of the Established Church should chance to come to reside
there—even if any casual passer by should stand in need
of the performance of religious duties—l say, even in
this spot, the solitary resident or the casual passer by shall
find that the Legislature of his country has provided some one
on whotn he may be authorized to call for the ministrations of
spiritual comfort, or the consolations of religion. We do not
profess, I must candidly promise, to do more than comply with
the principle which leaves no foot of the State's dominions
without the pale of the State's religion—a principle which I
am sorry to say is not carried into effect in all parts of Ireland,
some of which do not come within the operations of this Bill.
Now in this parish, in which, as I have already said, there is
neither church nor churchman, the cure of souls—which I
believe, is a correct, though it seems rather a contradictory
expression—the cure of souls is to be committed to the
care of the neighbouring minister, appointed by the bishop
at a stipend of 500/. per annum—( Laughter from the Op-
position, answered by cheers from the Ministerial benches)—
at an additional SOL per annum ; in which case, I think, we
indulgently depart from the proper rule, that where there is no
duty there shall be no pay.--(Deafening cheers.) I under-
stand that by the Church Temporalities Bill, introduced by
my Noble Friend the Member for North Lancashire, the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners were in certain cases em-
powered to assign a stipend of 4/. per annum.—(Renewed
cheering.) I am not quite sure that this was specified dis-
tinctly in the Bill ; but I am informed that this stipend has
been bone fide assigned; so, Sir, we improve in liberality
as we grow older.—(Great cheering.) In any parish in
which there are any members of the Established Church,
or in which there is any number short of that below which
the presentation to the living is suspended, we empower
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, to whom we think the su-
perintendence of these matters may most properly be confided
—subject to the approbation and consent of the Lord Lieu-
tenant in Council—either to assign the cure of souls in that
parish to the care of the neighbouring minister, in the same
way as when there is no Protestant in the parish ; or if in their
judgment the spiritual wants of the members of the Este-
' blished Church in such parish cannot be provided for by this
arrangement, with the same consent and approbation, to ap-
point a separate curate ; and it will be provided that in all
cases where there is now a church and a resident minister,
a separate curate shall be appointed.--( Cheers.) With regard
to the payment when the cure of souls is committed to the
neighbouring minister—there being on this supposition some
members of the Established Church resident in the parish. the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners, with the same consent and ap-
probation of the Lord Lieutenant in Council, may assign any
yearly stipend, in the proportion they think the ecclesiastical
duties to be performed may require, in no case being less than
101. or more than 501., and where• a separate curate is ap-
pointed his salary is not to exceed 75/. a-year.—( Loud cheers.)
Where' a separate curate is appointed, if he choose to occupy
the glebe house, and undertake to keep it in repair, the use of
it is to be allowed him, together with as much of the glebe
land as the Ecclesiastical Commissioners may think proper,
provided it does not exceed in value the yearly amount of
251. In every parish in which the cure of souls is committed
to the neighbouring minister, and where his own church is
so situated as not to be calculated to afford accommodation
for the spiritual wants and public worship of the members of
the Established Church, the annexed parish, and also in those
parishes in which a separate curate is to be appointed, provision

is to be made for the erection of some giiiiible plied of public
worship, calculated to accommodate the probable numbers of
the congregation, to be built at an expense not exceeding
1001., or to be hired at a cost not exceeding 151. a year.—
(Laughter from the Opposition side of the House, answered
by cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Little indeed, may
be thought of the places of public worship to be provided at
this modest Bost.—(Another laugh.) They are not such, I
achttit, ttg *ould suit the palmy days of vestry-cess, architec-
tural churches, arid liddslicpaid organs.—( Cheers.) Let it
be recollected, however, that they ;ire My meant for the ac-
commodation of ten, twenty, or thirty persorig, Attlids« the
whole of the surrounding neighbourhood, who dissent from the
Establishment, and desire no advantage from it ; let it be re-
collected that, in their practical effects, they may be as worthy
edifices as far more stately buildings, and that they may be
found to be—.

Such plain roofs as piety can raise ;
And only vocal in their Maker's praise.
( Loud cheers.) Whenever provision is to be made for the
spiritual wants of the members of the Established Church in
any suspended parish, or whenever any appropriation is con-
templated for the building of or providing suitable places for
the performance of public worship, the archbishop of the pro-
vince and the bishop of the diocese are to be associated with
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as Com Missioners pro hoc
vice. In the case which more frequently occurs, where the
suspended parishes form part of unions, the Commissioners will
either be authorized to dissolve such parish from the union to
which it heretofore belonged, or, if they think proper and expe-
dient, with the consent and approbation of the Lord Lieutenant
in Council, to assign tsthe future incumbent of that union such
a yearly stipend or salary in consideration of that suspended
benefice as would have accrued either- to a neighbouring mi-
nister or to the separate curate of the parish had formed no
part of such union, and had beTeir a distinct parish of itself.
It will be provided, also, that no union slialrhenceforth be
made without due notice being given to the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners. Further, when it appears in the case of any
parish which does not come within the provisions I have now
mentioned, and which contains any number of Members of the
Established Church, that after the deduction of thirty per
cent. and the payment of taxes on Ecclesiastical benefices, the
net income exceeds 300/. a year, the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners will be required to report the circumstances, upon the
avoidance of the benefice, to the Lord Lieutenant, and he will
be empowered to make such reduction as shall seem to him fit-
ting, after taking due cognizance of the circumstances, and
taking into consideration the report of the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners, according to the amount of the congregation and
probable extent of duty to be performed ; provided that this
reduction never reduces the annual net income below the
amount of 300/.—( Cheers.) In the case of livings in the gift
of the Crown, or of the Bishops, I think the right will be
readily conceded to Parliament, if it shall seem to them for
the good of the country and of the Church, to act upon the
provisions of the Bill which I have briefly stated to the House.
With regard to lay advowsons, it is hardly necessary for me
to remind the House that they stand on a very different foot-
ing. How the Hon. Member for St. Andrews (Mr. A.
Johnstone) intended to deal with lay advowsons and Church
patronage in Scotland, the House were unfortunately pre-
vented from ascertaining the other night—(a laugh)—but I
think it is most desirable, in endeavouring to effect any general
settlement of this nature, that we should show as scrupulous
and tender a regard as possible to all rights in the nature of pri-
vate property. Provision will therefore be made for empow-
ering the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to indemnify the owners
of lay advowsons by an indemnification upon the fund collected
from the various sources I have already described.—(Cheers.)
This fund we propose to call the reserved fund ; it will be ap-
plicable, in the first instance, to pay all the yearly salaries and
stipends of the neighbouring ministers and separate curates to
be appointed under the provisions of this Act ; it will be ap
plicable, in the next place, to pay all the charges which accrue
upon the suspended parishes ; it will then be applicable to
pay for the erection or provision of the places of public
worship also provided for under this Bill ; and after all these
purposes have been satisfied, in just accordance, as it seems
to me, with the resolution moved by my Noble Friend,
which has been read from the table this night--all the
sums which in future accrue from year to year, will
be applied by the Commissioners of National Education
to the religious and moral education of all classes of the
people, without distinction of religious persuasion.—( Loud
and protracted cheering.) Now, as to the propriety of divert-
ing ecclesiastical funds from any but ecclesiastical purposes,
and applying them to the general moral and religious educa-
tion of the people, without distinction of religious persuasion
—these are points which I do not think it comes within my
province now to touch on—(Cheers)—they have been dis-
cussed; they have been decided by this House—(Cheers)---
and it is in consequence of that decision, that I now submit
this whole measure to their consideration.—(Great cheering.)
But I will refer once again, for a moment, to an objection
which has been expressed, arising out of the apprehended
peril to the existing incumbents which this measure will oc-
casion. Now I own I cannot apprehend any such terrible
results, so dangerous to our safety and to our lives, from
such an ardent zeal for education, coupled with such a
ruthless propensity to crime as these—in my view—rather
morbid apprehensions seem to pre-suppose. But let it be
observed, that although in the first place the districts from
which the funds in question are drawn will be mainly and
properly entitled to receive the benefit arising from them,
there is nothing which will render it absolutely necessary
to apply them within the actual bounds of such district.
We shall be prepared, and' I doubt not any succeeding Go-
vernment will be prepared also, to apply to the liberality of
Parliament not to stint or to stop the objects of national
education in Ireland during the inevitable absence of means
that must prevail during the infancy of the reserved fund and
the lives of the existing incumbents. It may be said that ac-
cording to the resolutions of my Noble Friend the Secretary
of State for the Home Department, by which the spiritual
wants of the Members of the Established Church are first to
be provided for, the funds at present in the hands of the Ec-
clesiastical Commissioners for ecclesiastical purposes, are con-
fessedly very deficient.—( Opposition cheers.) Will it be
contended that we are not at liberty to apply the funds that
will arise under the operation of this Bill to the general pur-
poses of religious and moral education, the fund for ecclesias-
tical purposes being still inadequate ? I have no hesitation in
saying that it seems to me we are clearly so entitled.—( Pro-
tracted cheering.) Beyond the bonus of 5L per cent., which
it is intended shall be given to the present incumbents, from
the perpetuity purchase fund, I believe it will be necessary to
trespass upon the funds in the hands of the ecclesiastical Com-
missioners. I know that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners have
at present a large debt, and that it will be a considerable time
before they can be relieved of that debt ; but still I feel perfectly
confident that they will ultimately have a considerable surplus
in their hands. With that surplus it is not the intention
of the Government in any manner to meddle. We mean to
leave that fund entirely at the disposal of Parliament, just as
it would have been done by the late Government, under the
Bill introduced by them ; and it is this surplus which we hope
that Parliament will be warranted to apply to the purposes of
the moral and religious education of the Irish nation. without
respect to religious distinctions.—( Loud cheering.) But
when I talk of parishes in which there are no Protestants, or
in which there are only ten or twenty persons who are members
of the Established' Church, it must not be thought that we
have been hunting after shadows. I call the attention of those
who sneer at our giving only 5/. to the neighbouring clergy-
men for doing the duty in parishes where there are no Protes-
tants, to the statement of the number of parishes which, will
come under the operation of this Bill. I shall not trouble
the House by reading the number in each separate diocese
in Ireland, as that would take up too much of the time of the
House ; but 1 find that in the twenty-six dioceses of Ireland
the number of parishes without one single member of the
Established Church is no less (as will be seen by the Report
of the Commissioners of Public Instruction now upon the
table of the House) than 151. The number of parishes con-
taining less than ten Protestants, exclusive of those which
contain no Protestants at all, is 194 ; the number containing
less than tivent) Protestants is 198 ; the number containing
less than thirty Protestants is 133 • the number containing
less than forty Protestants is 107; and the number containing
less than fity Protestants is 77. The total number of parishes
therefore, which will come under the operation of the Bill,
is no less than 860. —( Loud cheering, which continued for
several minutes.) The following is the detailed account of
the provisions of the Bill in regard to the suppression
clauses, as applied to parochial benefices in Ireland :

_
A • '4 .1;4 6
i".. ei ...- S• =
-.4
41 1 Number of Parishes, containing, in _. ,P v S
DIOCESES. ._ '6 $ Number, Protestants less than ii E .
.5...9...4 .....„.ig„.
......
. e. 2., r• *A"---- ----1 g tie, !.!
'A Ten. 'Twenty Thirty. Forty. Fitly. E..,
..........., ..-..... .............. ........... ............. -.................. .......- .............- ........... .......... .....
1. Cashel ... _ • 14 11 16 8 6 3 53
2. Emly lO 9 9 2 2 '2 34
3. W terford 7 3 5 nil 1 nil 16
4. Lismore
5. Limerick._ 9 12 13 7 5 5 51
6. Ardfert and
Aghadoc 7 13 12 7 7 6 52
7. Cork 1 2 1 4 7 2 17
8. Ross
9. Cloyne
10. Killaloe 1 11 11 7 8 4 42
11. Kilfenura 9 2 2 1 nil nil 14
12. Dub!in
13. Kildare 4 7 10 5 7 6 :,9
14. Ferns 7 .8 7 12 5 5 44
15. Leighlin
16. Ossory
17. Tuam
18. Elphin
19. Clontertand
' Kilmaedu?gh 7 6 8 4 3 33
20. Killala and
Achonry 2 2 5 2 2 1 14
21. Armagh
t 2. Ille4th
2.3. Ardagh nil nil 1 nil nil nil 1
21. Down
14
25. Connor 1 :3 2 4 4 nil ,
21. Derry
i• --_ --- ------
, 151 i 191 I 198 1 133 107 77 86n

The consequence of this will be, that the funds which at pre-
sent go in these 'wishes to the maintenance of that which I
must call the^olPrflubus part of the Church Establishment,
because it goes to the maintenance of the sinecurists and ab-
sentees—(Cheers)—will be applied in those districts where
there are at present many persons belonging to other persm.-
skits now unprovided with religious instruction, and who
now share with their fellow countrymen in the benefits of that
moral and religious education which a paternal Government
ought never to refuse to any class of Christians.--( Cheering.)
I have also an account of the gross amount of the reserved
fund arising from parishes where the Bill comes into full ope-
ration. This account does not include the reduction of bene-
fices to 3001. a year, because upon that I had no data upon
which to form a sufficiently exact estimate; neither does it in-
clude the sums to be derived from the letting of glebe-houses,
glebe-lands, &c. I find after making an allowance of 301. per
cent. of tithe composition, which will accrue from the sus-
pended benefices in royal and ecclesitltical patrgpage, that the.