The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-04 00:00:00

question;. it Is,y . .
as certain) renessary to have judges to decide theian sanction of the •-• • A
wise, the pure, and the honest of all ages`
..Iti
sit was a matter of opinion—of argument; and their Lord. every thing. shall be abandoned; cheerfully, even the- Alike:
awn, had already heard the arguments at the bar, and they manic robes of dignity, provided always that the sacrifice be
were now hearing some observations (which, no doubt, must demanded at our hands by a Tory Adminlstration.---(Hear.)
be tiresome) in reply to them. In another place he thus ex. From the mwe would receive as a blessing and a boon, what
prestos ' himself" I can certify, after considerab'e led atten- from others would appear to us a burden and a curse. Not
tive observation, without hesitation and without the fear of that we should altogether enjoy our degradation, or revel in
Contradiction; that Englishmen greatly prefer a title derived feastless indolence.—(A
from King laugh.) No, we are aware of the
_Aelfeeed Henry or King Richard, and particularly froth King sacrifice we shol u d make ; but this good at least would be
or King Edgar, to one originating in a statute of the gained to us that shouldT have our friends in office, and we are ne-
. of
teenth century. I speak not of the mushroom population cessarily friends ofwea ynAdtrieineistthreartiop.i" This was the real mean.
tired,certainindigenous
towns mainly peopled by foreigners, but of the set- lug of the areumentsoro
titlebit
to
othinean of common
majority
inhabitants of England ; that is to say, of a consistency of purpose, who hoped to easirtnea,
vast
,s siod.tyhadsee respect o f hi: t
of the persons residing in that part of your Ma- countrymen, could for a moment lend his saection to it. Hree
jteitslteYs dorninions." He then said that Englishmen preferred debt of gratitude to the House for having thus attentively listened to an
not Lordships
derived from Henry VIII., from whom many of their individual who had no personal claims to their consieeration, and on a
fr had titles, but Henry 1., or Richard, and particu- subject, more especially, so dull in itself that he could hardly have ex-
larl
stituYt om Edgar and Alfred. Why, he might just as well in- rated anything like a patient hearing for it ;he could only make the
In
euaseehuis most hearty acknowledgments for their attention—(hear.)
_ .. Le comparison between a sphinx and a turkey, or a mer-
nsiion,hh. e felt it due to himself to say, that the part which he
:na'el., and a turkey, or a griffin and a horse.—( Hear, and had tankel
took in the
ntis measure, resulted not only from the deep interest he
ii,,l.lgia ter. ) But where could they find a title derived from
ed measure itself, but from the respected attachment which he
elrg Edgar or King Alfred? Surely this individual, who was entertair. for the House of which he was an unworthy member—(hear.)
trenaely learned in the law, must know that no
.sucih Lord LYNDHURST said it was not his intention to adopt the ex.
title existed in England. • And then he spoke so sneering y ample of his Noble and Learned Friend on this occasion : it was not
Or
course
" mushroom population of certain towns," alluding, his intention to enter into the merits of the Bill of Parliamentary Re.
oUrse, to Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield, and such form, on which' his Noble and Learned Friend had made so eloquent
Places, where none of the contemporaries of King Edgar air harangue, further, indeed, than to remind that Noble and Learned
or Alfred existed—where there were none of the indigenous Lord that some of those valuable rights which had been secured to free-
inhabitants of the country, but where the whole popula- men by the Parliamentary Reform Bill, the Corporation Reform Bill had
t
!°" had sprung from Normans, Frenchmen, and the va- attempted to deprive them of; nor was it till the last stage of the latter
rlo.us foreigners who made inroads on this country of late Bill in the House of Commons, that the attempt was successfully re.
I . ears..--4 Hear, hear, and laughter.) In pages 25 and sisted [hear hear!]. With respect to what the Noble and Learned
23, this gentleman found fault with the objections taken Lord had said in reference t,
tiltolnr.t.Htorigfe,roriire,tof the Commissioners-.it
made
mohh justificationthe
Noble
that
was not his (Lord Les) inten)
tbiL tsbe. Commissioners to " feasting," and applied the Gentleman from the unjust attacks . and
Zri,ll ' monastic" and " ascetic" to these Commissioners, Learned Lord; but he would ask, by whom had that yGent'Nemehalnebeen
'eenaset described them as " legal monks, who did not like appointed to his situation ? Why, precisely by the same
x ing, in which wise men had so often gloried."—( Great Learned Lord who, after his statements, that his knowlege, upon andir
laughter.) Again, in another place, he talked "of transplant- cuit and otherwise ,'of Mr. Hogg, induced him to believe that Gentle.-
ing freedom, and allowing it to expand in boundless space."— man a proper person for the situation, now came forward and deelaredo2olitinned aughter.) Ile was willing to admit that this Re- that Gentleman's report to be a most absurd one, and that he was alto.
Port might deserve praise, on the ground of being marked by gether incompetent to the situation. This, however, was a point which
his
(Lord L) would leave the Noble and Learned Loid to settle with
emeanya witticisms and Jokes; but he protested against its being
those.tiie
Noblersentlemedn in question. To proceed to other
slje"C es a counterbalance to the plain, sensible information pos"'netselloefadiseesusasinodnLearned Lord had referred to two
LareuPPlled by the Report of the Commissioners. -He had so precedents only, which lie considered decisive of the present question,
i.addressed himself to the _question as to the illegality of and as disposing of the motion the Noble. Lord. One of these
issuing this Commission, and as te the manner in which it precedents w the Nil for the Abolition of Hereditary juris.
Wits conducted; and he was quite ready to ashnit that these diction in Scotland. It was said that here no witnesses were
lactsideration.s were quite beside the question ; his only apo- examined after Counsel had been heard. Now, in order to
Bering an act of justice to those who had issued and exe-
63' fur applying himself to which was, that he was but ren- make this precedent a ewe is point, Noble Lords would ask,
was evidence tendered P—if tendered, was it discussed ?—if is:
cuted the Commission. These Commissioners had been cussed, was it rejected? If this point could not be made out,
attacked vigorously and powerfully, in a manner which he what became of the precedent ? Noble Lords, however, would
had been surprised to hear that this was quite the reverse of a prece.
Lordships
parti ; but he had not heard any charge against an
3.
Trite,
wt
1;1:3s
wastendered
oonly
idocumentarywithoutthe evidence; but, still it.
was evidence, and was as such received.y
much for the Noble and
impeachment of their Report which did not come
Wit '
Within the description of it which he had already, given, Learned Lord's first precedent. The second precedent relied upon was
namely racy
~ that there had been a solitary instance of inaccu- the Bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade. Before the Noble and
tioy. in the case' of Berwick ; a trifling mistake of risen- Learned Lord had relied upon that case, he should have extended his
torq one particular' member of a family instead of another, inquiries, and ascertained what objections were made to the evidence in
the case. It was true that Lord Grenville opposed the reception cf
mouth,
respect to East ,7etford ; and with regard to Ply-
mr...th, that they had charae!trlzed as a good system of some evidence in that case, and the House adopted his objection, but on
jettedss ciundtso ttohtealelryiddeinffeeerent
because
me
in
nhfosee taken now. Lord Gienville ob-
taneipal government a system w.`'..ich was not entitled to so
s urged against mnaottoervictifenthce. He (Lord
thu_cparocr.edit. With respect to the aree...";tent Lyndhurst) would read the passage, ats confirmatory e statement he
bynsir Provisions of the Bill, the principle of the7*- us laid down had made. " Mr. Plummer, the counsel, observed that from the long
C. Wetherell, might be divided into heads. It was psried Lord Balcannon had been Governor of Jamaica, be would be
contended that mite_
inn . the Bill took away the power of the King' to able to point out the consequence of this Bill to the. West Indian Pro.
'doom Lord Grenville had hereupon remarked that it was irre-
it ,ese_ magistrates, because he would be only empowered under
the last
the nominees of the council ; and next, that in gular !el examine witnesses at their Lordships' bar who had no facts to
o merely appeared to express their views and opinions
in"! inn section but one it precluded the Crown from grant- state, but sv.,'
th'. Bill.y charter henceforward unless under the provisions of [hear, hear I]. I'sld doubt in this case the Noble Lord was perfectly
e as._
oThe King, it was said, had no power whatever to correct in describing such evidence as irregular, for, as the Noble Lord
t. 1.3. int a single magistrate ; his Majesty could neither con- had said, the House had to decide upon facts not upon prophecies
I tillnore remove him ; and that the power of the Great Seal [a laugh ;] and therefore he moved, supported by Lords Eldon and
Liverpool, that the next witness be called. So much for the Noble and
eau.P_Pr d at the walls of corporate towns, to which it could not
th `e Now the King would continue under this Bill to have Learned Lord's second precedent [hear, hear a Now if that Noble.
man, with all his acknowledged sagacity and accuracy, could not
ea,e appointment of recorder and the complete control of the with two or three days' notice find out more substantial precedents than
ses'"rts
_gals jurisdiction_ of the towns, and the Crown would pos- these, what conclusion could the House come to as to the justice
DeraLu t;theeame powers with respect to cities already incor- and propriety of the case? The slave trade case also called to
tinm'ena andt. so far from this measure disabling the Crown his recollection that at the time it was brought forward, 1792, the
Caller fon ltlg any charters except under its provisions, it only agent fur Barbadoes prayed to be heard viva voce at their Lordships'
not Yet 'r the interference of the King with respect to towns bar, and his evidence was not only heard, but ordered to be printed.—
stpoyi incorporated. But the power given to the Crown of (hear, hear.) This fact put a final answer to his Noble and Learned
that case, the provisions of this Act, by incor- Friend's opinion. Having thus disposed of the two " precedents," he
Peratjteg' In
rig w
ennui ass a, Particular place by charter, did not abridge or would proceed to speak as to the merits of the case. The preamble
e•l'Preseas ith respect to towns already incorporated appeared
the
diversßdillstated,
defects."
in the charters of divers Corporations there
. Now surely this was matter of credence.—
rupt•iim
was ins non et exclusio alterius. Here some inter- (Zra,rehear, ) It did not say that all Corporations were so defective,
Re sudde , offered to the Noble Lord's address at the bar, but that in *d' of them,
ef
suchivers
ehartieerms,,,, by reason "of neglect and abuses of the
dud
amonnlY Paused, and looking steadfastly at some indivi- privileges of &c. &c., defects had arisen. To enable
gst those at the bar, exclaimed, " Nothing so dull the House to judge whether this was the fact evidence Must be heard.
as liStenin
Lord, ~
thg tO a long speech. " Yes," observed the Noble If such were found to be the case, what should be done ?
ins, by
and OF! is something still more dull, and that is stand- gulations should be made to meet the case; but a number of indivi.
I.4._listening to a seech in which you feel no inte- duals were not to be stripped of what by law they were entitled to, and
,rguinTa(tLeughter. ) Thep Noble Lord then resumed : The of which they could not be deprived without being convicted of deg.
to presideB advanced by counsel with respect to those directed suite. offences: Surely, however, this was not to be determines on
without hearing evidence.. The Report of the Commissioners had been
hire, for. over charitable funds had really startled and alarmed
.madei up from thewehseedencetta.kneedn beforeth it ; surely, then, it was but
ofto substantiatingbeunjust and un.
if. they were once admitted they would be the means
of oreve
resnoeentlng all reform ; for if it could be shown that any right foundedrm, tt that those
fact, shouldm maintained
the opportunityatreportany
person their
h
thereng these charities was granted to any person, either by assertion by evidence. He could not conceiv how
anal, truhvyn, the public, or some pious and beneficent indivi- had ever sat in a court' of justice, or was imbued witty any pwrinn
e public officer so appointed must be perennial in this ciples of justice, could maintain that a party accused should not-
d°llownt,l7'--( Hear, hear.) Now suppose any man had en- have the opportunity of establishing his innocence by witnesses.
the c6'_. with a pious and benevolent purpose, the six clerks of (Cries of hear, hear, hear.) Even if the Noble and Learned Lord's
precedents had been substantiated, he (Lord Lyndhurst) should have
trone,°Urt of Chancery, with 1001. a-year each, and when he
said, look to the principle of the thing—look to the justice of the case;
nn_
under
forward his measure for Chancery reform, which was
but the precedents had been altogether thrown over. Besides the old
tl,7_
ader the consideration of a Committee up stairs, if there
charters in cpte,tion were part of the Royal Prerogative granted by the
4,11:_n LY provision in it for the purpose of abolishing' the
Royal Bounty. Ought not the House, then, to have said, " Let us look
ItiZet Of the sums paid to these officers, he should be re-
wouldto the defectsh in particular
_cases, and apply an effective remedy." This
tie!, known
this Corporation Bill—this only case of perpetua-
eonvenieaevceemeremt tiscehniesefeassnidtetioiir theti case, without leading to public in.
Legislatureh would
this fund
to the English law ; and he should be told that
oiepßrei.efared
of the do„7nst be perpetuated, and in order to meet the views have adopted; but this 'did notemee'etprtuhdeevnieeeweslotfb.?those who
ti
Main in t'ir, that it must not be transferred but suffered to re- this Bill. Why ? simply because this Bill was not one fo
heat) ,ri! hands of six clerks, to the end of time.._( Hear, of Corporations, but one brought in to consolidate and strengthen a Panrrtym
bodies
so,,,ue. fact was, that charities had been left to corporate —(Opposition cheers.) This was a fact which no individual was so
setneti eiettmes as trustees only having a legal interest, and bl.nd as not once to perceive. The real object of bringing, this Bill for.
Whet 'rtesa as trustees having a partly beneficial interest. ward at this season was with a view to the next dissolution.—(Hear,
niatratin 8 more usual than altering the trustees for the admi- hear.) Noble Lords were aware of the great struggle which had been
made in another House to prevent the division of the larger towns into
dab,. nof charities? Did not every day's- practice, every
more numerous wards, whereby a more mixed return had been effected.
Ras authority in the Court of Chancery, prove that nothing
tlht
ewacsosaid
itahrtnthiwsle,viatsh neat
earperalyeßnetorhma,dbuhtaodnethof principle; but
rid of tile eornmon, than for misconduct, or a desire to get
befored e cnc y
the eet,e,! trust, persons were continually removed ? Whentheto
issue formm dividing .the g eat towns into wardeeM
event, srer of the trustees fell off, or the quorum was deft- Bill had either passed the Lords' House, or received the Royal
them
137 Court of Chancery was not always entitled to fill assent, clearly proved that tee whole was a party affair, Let Mr. Joseph
failed, I!: but when the object of the charity had altogether Parkes, the keen, intelligent, active agent of that party, deny this if he
spi:dieattie Court of Chancery had the power of changing the could. By their own words and deeds they were convicted. " The
division of these wards," it was recommended, " should be kept
Pres. „Wn of the funds, and directing them to purposes si
altogether a secret for the present." Was this no party matter ?
Ch ?. here were two charities, one of them Michael's
120,0un to which. funds had been left amounting to —(hear, hear, hear.) Why, the supposed triumph of that party
lit,h 004 ; and was the talk of all their clubs, where the House of Lords, if it dared
180,000/. in the other case, to redeem Eng_
lorigeeraPtives from corsairs. Now, when these pirates no to assert the claims of justice, and to act upon them,. was
.attacked with
came infested the seas—when the object of the charity be- ttihe ep,arsest.calumny an abuse. Yt.•s,
.thte sole object
Bill,
this Bill was
haiedan,ltrendmise.metnl t of.tf theted I,Whigt resrserhed. ließeforma tiht was found,
flight Co
Pletely eetinguished, the sums thus accumulated
.object;. so e Municipal
the no, and he believed were, applied to the education of Corporationsn Billelen Zs' broughtee la
e ) ''
- forward. This, if it did not complete the
this neeroes •
is prin.. in the West Indies. Now it was precisely on party tiiumph, would be followed up by other " Reform" measures ; for
been
teennelPle that the Corporetion Bill proceeded. Could se said Isaac Tomkins, Esq., in his new pamphlet called "We Can't
neen tan that the persons to ;eliom charitable funds had Afford It;" and no man could better prop up a bad cause than Isaac
tires oc", would not have approved of the proposed distribu- Tomkins, Gent.—(A laugh.) Isaac Tomkins said " The same may be
likely . these Was it not saes, of Municipal Reform, a measure of infinite use in furthering our
charities ?—{Hear, hear, hoer.)
emancipation from the Tory yoke, and of the next Reform (the lowering
,Ivatahedthat they would have wished to have !hose funds
of the qualification), which must be carried, in order to complete the
''Y that over by a fairly chosen council, and a mayor elected
overthroww,,rh of our former masters."
. This was the line of argument
e'ttrol "until which should have a regular and effective
properly
made use of to authorise a departure. from all the rights of
Stoepti over them.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore, the pre-
law of the country, which had been uniformly ad-
hered Y.
By' the.
"
Inellt 07,11„/%4s, that these funds were left under the manage. to,wasan individual holding grants or privileges by charter from the
m'ere Corporations, as they existed when these charities Crown consideredas holding them of. the best and securest tenure,
ches granted, us well as to those which might hereafter be and the same rule of law and justice applied with equal force to corpo.
thatell- Th
it e consequence of this argument of counsel was, rate bodies enjoying grants or privileges under the same sort of charter.
tho hat
too much; but exactly in a contrary direction If an individual held property subject to a trust, he was of course
bound by that trust; and if a corporation held property by a trust, it
aye '` tl. Which those who had brought it forward would
was bound by the trust, in the same manner. So when the property 11, 'd
e.
°Tpoletatbieolieveel ; for it went against leaying any. money to
by either individal cr orporation was not eld in trust, both the one
seat you ns at all. Did it not follow from this argument,
party and the other were equally at liberty to deal with it at their
ll'll one Can never safely leave money to a Corporation •; for
own free and uncontrolled pleasure. This was a principle of law
either a two horns of a dilemma you are sure to fall— generals, acknowledgt d, but which, however, seemed but too little
hear
y-onethns, Corporation must stand- still, or the failure understood its the other House of Parliament. In a corporation
eerie he enemy altogether must inevitably ensue.—( Hear, croe in which he had been concerned as Counsel that of Derby—
°f th'e iaasr;) The principle of the Court of Chancery, and he had moved that a rate imposed by the Corporation be disallowed,
he trustee; that. when funds were impressed with a charity, on the ground that the Corporation had sufficient funds in its pos-
propert..
,e_ for its distribution might be appointed. Now, the session to cover the rate, but on that occasion, Lord Ellenborcugh,
Ash •C
uses
It to Corporations was public property, given for with the sanction of the Court, had answered that the Corporation
were not bound to apply their funds to this purpose, unless it could
s for the good of the community, including the cor-
titrat.tzs, te be shown that the terms of the grant which gave these funds, so
ernselves—to the inhabitants of the towns over which
pr4secre decided. The same. rule which applied to the rights of individuals
appointed. When he got that publicity once its,- decided.
tequally good in theh ctaseof i}c.irptorattions. He had heard a great deal
it beearrrm these funds ; when the objects of them failed, or
taenstavto,s, evNupepoLe ,
not far t instance,hia . t the
113 t publieexpedient to change their administration, they were inhabitantsa. e u exr
eiefnelyTestAmt
% ian
s t slide r weret ts
virete
oet. property, and disbursed for the public benefit, by peilient to pay any more tolls to the Du' ke of Bedford for ICoventex-
-o.le:r.)t
,bEe reform in the constitution of the municipal bodies. Garden-market, although he does own them under a charter of
till'e ePith very
.species of vituperative expression and offen- Charles I." The house would hardly sanction this ebullition of" ex.
t .11. _et had been lavished on those who had sanctioned this pedicncy." Why then should it sanction the equally unjust cry of ex
eepe Anever was there such an instance of ignorance or ty- pediency which was raised on the present occasion ?—(heae, hears)
Nii'tl
ever hale
Who had looked at the Bill ? No lawyer The principle was exactly /he same. To some persons, a party in the
he to
to lale seen it. To whom was this language applied ? State, it might perchance seem " expedient" to remove their Lordships
hose who supported the Bill in that House ; but the from a share in the
.National Council.—(hear, hear, hear.) This
"IY
t° Ml'
oir 419
than ich these words might be applied were nothing more was an expediency. which they could never on principle and experi-
ence adopt ; yet if they would successfully resist it, they must not per-
I'Verjal the Commons of England—( Hear, hear)—in
mit other steps of so-called expediency. to pass. It behoved them, for the
teams Parliament assembled, and truly representing the sake of the people of Great Britain, to act as became their characters
I44reisi--(1,011d cheers.) Again it was said by their Learned as gentlemen and Noblemen of the land, and altogether to set aside any
ke taers, " that a Bill was passed, called the Reform Act.
eiebi3" not
exa • .—(Cheers.) The
e L ctly in what year." " Oh, yes-," continued the Corporations, the Church, the hereditary P eraeet,hewere as barriers be.
and I, 0 ord, "you dO know the year well,—( Cheers)—you tween tyrannyon the one side and democracy'on other: thes, served
1!!)4 til2e that instructed you,_ and those that you spoke for, at onceasacheck upon arbitrary power and democraticupon. license.
biliotil paussseetallt y.ou spoke to,. know well
.what year it was that' Two centuries ago they formed an opposition to kingly tyranny : now
Bsie,en (Loud cheering.) And if you were to live, they were called upon to oppose a barrier to the democratic movement :
,111 p.,„_ , Years, but seventy times seven years, after the let them do their duty; let them consider that if Aldermen were suf.
neer ealee.a, you will reflect (some of you at least) with a fered to be extinguished with imp unity, Peers might come down next.
—(Hear, hear.) He had another objection to this Bill, namely, that it
`g tiler ,17!,,t0 the last hour of your existence, on the passing
,l° T sselorm Act in the year 1832."--(Great cheering.) transferred the prerogative of creating these Corporations from the
King to the
.House of. Commons—(Hear, hear)—and that wh:re a Cor.
,11,4 4 p,4.-ea'Ned Counsel said, " I 'speak not as an advocate, but perateni experienced inconveniences from the charter conferred upon
the we'rvate ge.laleman I assert that I have not laid before
evou it, it was not left competent in the Crown, as heretofore, to make other
i4alloeid bset psaarts 0: the, case, on' the great principle that time provisions for it. Objections were made to the system of self-election
/ one vcd."---o.aughter.) 'Now, at the risk of infring- in Corporations; there might be disadvantages attending this system,
04ailet, Lahr great priiejole," I must e allowed to say, that
..,
u4sei
addresses
the life of me, no doubt, but every system had some disadvantage ; and if the disad.
coceive by what right the Learned vantage :Mending this particular system were felt as very heavy, how
te.etiernaT,
your Lordships' have appointed auditors, If, also, corn.
in the capacity of a private easy would it have been to
ttaetteeey "ofe---,( Hear, hear.) That, i taint had been made, though this was not the case, that justice
must say, was an inad- P
hod
he
couldtne Learned Counsel he was ill administered in.
.Corporations, how simple would have been
was 4,ere as Counsel,
Weaor 1 be here only as Counsel.—(Loud el‘eers*) if, the remedy, in determining that in no case should Quarter ees.
sions be held where there was no RecorHear, hear, hear.)
boa
e,. , le had
defend
not made the best of his case, he, if he :were When the Reform Bill passed through the House of Commons
n uernnd kgold say, that he would takeany Counsel but
-a ' - eini on zen • . him isee was considerable discussion whether the rights of the freemen
ttis,Legene, other occasion. But the fact was, that those, li. g. spats, as the Attorney.Gcueral of the present Government
titilness
asu...e,. Counsel had done their duty. They knew theirtime—should be pre,ervtel. The concession was
' called them at the
La TtS, end roll: as any men in the profession—none more se- at bust made, as a conciliation, ee the Ministers of the Crown themselves
Which
any
tLr, e more astute, and he never knew them to kee stated to their Lordships' Hous • and as ail
fr leh 'lung that was either in th • heads their • • " -another measure of a si.
. their or briefs the Bill. ']'hey did pass that Bill, and now
luelucem nt to them to pass
e.,-orn the stated, could benefit their clients. One extract more miler description—a measure of a/ unicipal Reform—was proposed
11iatile stotaedel_rnes.s of one of the Learned Counsel—" How they covertly and secretly.—(Cheers.) Was theft' ever a political ma-
by ri.°llt eta such things, except in the presence of persons nanceuvre more base than this PHe would use
pie, character, and FPOstr4Fot-P ?
not a Whig measure iis its very principle,
tltliepeeitsli-en, or under the influence of faction!. or misled
What was the foundation of the pr sent me sure?! Say
ex vcred •,', (10 not know." This was stated of speeches (Cheer,,,)
,Pressie '-'Y those in the otl 11 ' teis.e of Perlis. Parliament,
viewfor what they would upon the subject, torture it as ninell AS they pleased,
a .PPPer earl's—was it
` ettreeel a wish to remodel ler
0h,„.9.,g them to flue our Institutions, with a of the measure was
put it in every possible shape, discuss it as they chose, the fetlinifition
the Report of the Commissioners. rhe King's
le control of the people.—(Hear
",but
hear.
e)
ate r It'WaS said
iii eady'to ' on the part of the Corporations,„SupreLchnacr 1833 pointed to the Report as the rerouted-work of the Mea-
step was taken or attempted until that Report was upon their
e• endly if • - accent reform rifle Bill itself was taken opt Qf
10.3 4nd_....,a ~ •,, provided it comes to us from a Lordship,' table—the very preamble o
~,,e:i ;
.11,,,
_aret
not
are quite ready to sacrifice our - the Report; aid when the Bill was introduced its the other blouse of
"el e lee it'inv_ ot a farthing for the property or privileges Parliament. the Noble Lord who proposed it entered at large into
'''enjoyed since the days of Edgar and Alfred, by ali the tettle.tattle of the li,eport, and made it the very foundation of

4
THE SUN, _CONDON, TUESDAY, -:4-vg-usT 4, 1835.

'sar measatie. Now, let him ask their Lordships as legislators,, as men
Fit c ja-diedally in their charecteri a:, Peers of the realm, if
Ilea r called upon to-deprive men of their franchise, their
pro,) rty, and their pecuniary rights, upon the foundation of
a R emrt, and upon the evidence collected by them, what
it was they ought to require ? Would not their just insp.:Mee naturally
be d:rected to the Commissioners themselves ? Would they not say,
" Have we seen them in public acting in high stations, so as to enable us
to forM a correct judgment of their discretion, their impartiality,
their fortune, or their sound judgment ? Now, he asked their
Lordships, what individual among them know anything of the Coriemis_
sinners who had made this Report, or whether there was one Noble Lord
in twenty who had heard the name of any one of them pronounced, until
he saw the Report on thetable.—(Hear, hear.) He himself knew some_
thing of these Commissioners, and the result of his knowledge of them
he would soon communicate to their Lordships. He had already said,
that in the appointment of commissioners they required that they should
be free from all imputation or suspicion of partiality or party motives.
If a committee were appointed in the Commons—in the olden time at
least—to investigate any trifling matter, it would be matter of reproach
to the par'y propesing it, if he did not select a mixed committee, corn.
posed fairly of men of both sides of the House. Now let him direct their
attention to the Report, and to the Commissioners themselves. Several
of these gentlemen he knew, and he begged to say that in the observations
he was about to make, he meant not to the slightest degree to reflect on
their private character or conduct ; he abutted to them merely as party
men. The first name he found on :the list was Sir John Black-
burn& I need not describe him; every body knows that he is a
firm, a determined, uncompromising, and unflinching Whip.
lie is at the head of the Commission, and this is his character—a very
respectable man notwithstanding.—(Cheers.) The next was George
Long—a very respectable man—went the same circuit with myself—hut
a Whig, tio.—(Cheers and laughter.) Then we have Sampson Au-
gustus Rumbell, a Whig and something more.—(Cheers and laughter.)
George Hutton Wilkinson, whom I are less acquainted with ; but a
Whig also, and something more. Thomas Jefferson Hogg—my Noble
and Learned Friend, I am sure, Will vouch for Mr. Hogg as having al-
ways been considered at least a Whig.—(Cheers and laughter.) Pere.
grine Bingham—Whig again, my Lords, and something more.—
(Laughter.) David Jardine—determined Whig. John Elliott Drink-
water—strongly WhigeL(Renewed laughter.). Thomas Flower Ellis_a
follower, I believe, of my Noble Friend: a Whig, I think he will not
deny; Idu not say he is more. James Booth—Whig. Henry Roscoe
—I have the honour of knowing—honourable man—northern circuit—
decidedly Whig.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) Charles Austin, able man—
but I should say rather mote than a Whig : I know him well, and a
eery respectable man he is. Edward Rushtnn—Whig and Snore.—
(Cheers and a laugh.) Alexander Edward Cockburn—a Whig, and
more. John Buckle—a Whig, and more. Daniel Maude—very re-
spectable man—goes the northern circuit; but, as my Noble and
Learned. Friend knows--strongly, strongly Whig.—(A laugh.)
John Gambier—a gentleman who, I believe, did not sign the Re-
port—strongly Whig. And last of all—though I must not, on refiec.
tion, say least either, for there is one other very important personage
behind, Sir Francis Palgrave—not a Whig. Nineteen Commissioners
who are Whigs, my Lords, and one who is not a Whig, but who has
written on'the subject of Corporate Reform, and is a good deal disposed
against existing Corporations.—(Cheers.) Last of all, among these
gentlemen, comes the Secretary, a friend of my Noble and Learned
Friend's again—Mr. Joseph Parkes, Secretary to the Political Union—
(Cheers)—Secretary of the Birmingham Union, Secretary to this Corn
mission, and Secretary to the divided Commission, giving instructions
for the others to proceed upon—Mr. Joseph Parkes.—(Cheers.) Now,
I ask your Lordships, would you dispose of the most trifling pecuniary
interest, where a,question of party ives concerned, On a tribunal so con-
stitu: ed ? I would appeal with confidence to my Noble and Learned
Friend, if he were not sitting here as a party-man, he would ridicule
the idea ;he would laugh it to scorn. Would to God, my Lords, I
had my Nieble and Learned Friend's power cf ridicule and sarcasm !
How he would " show up" the twenty ! How Mr. Blackburne would
'figure as the prominent character in the procession, and how admirably
would the rear be brought up by his friend, Mr. Joseph Parkes.—
(Cheers and laughter.) We have not even the advantage of the joint
judgment of the twenty, my Lords, whatever that might be worth, as two
Commissioners, or in some instances only one, is sent to make inquiries
and collect evidence. His Report is transmitted to the Committee in
town, and they, acting on chat Report, make their generel Report—a
very extraordinary mode of proceeding, I must say.—(Cheers.) I ask
your Lordships if I were sent down to a town divided into two parties
—and in what country town are there not two parties ?—lf I, holding
the King's seal in my hand, declared that I came down there to receive
complaints, do you think I should not in any place, however well regu-
lated or well governed, have abundance of evidence to take clown, from
which I could draw up a plausible report ? But, my Lords, what is it
we have here ? We have no evidence.—(cheers.) We have only the
conclusions which these gentlemen theik proper to draw from the evi-
dence, not the conclusions of twenty, but the conclusion of the one or
two individuals in each particular place. My Lords, is not this fact in
itself sufficient to destroy the Report —(renewed cheers.) I say, my
Lords, we have not had the evidencelaid before us. On a former occasion
I asked the Noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government,
whether he had any objection to lay that evidence upon the table ? The
Noble Viscount goes down to the bar to consult his friend Mr. Joseph
l'arkes, or somebody else, and immediately returning, says, " No; the
evidence is not in a fit state to be produced, and I shall not lay it on the
table of the house"—(cheers.) What, my Lords! On the decision of
these twenty party-men, appointed for party objects, and receiving their
pay from the parties appointing them, sent down to collect evidence
and draw their own conclusions therefrom—shall we deprive men of
their rights and property, without even seeing the evidence on which
they proceeded ?—(cheers.) He remembered a case decided by
Sir Samuel Romtlly, the circumstances of which, by analogy,
were not inapplicable to the pres.nt case. A boy who had
found a diamond ring, took it to a jeweller, and asked him what
he would give. him for it ? The jeweller took cut the diamond, and
returned the .boy the ring, saying, " It is of no value; I'll give you a
shilling for it, if you like." The boy took some legal advice upon
the subject, brought an action, and a notice was served on the
jeweller to produce the diamond on the trial, in order that evi-
dence might be given of its value. No; he would not do that.
What said the Learned Judge? Why, that the jury must presume
the fact; and that, as the jeweller declined to produce the atone,
their best rule would be to give as the amount of damages the price
of the finest and dearest jewel that could be placed in the empty
socket ; and the jury awarded damages accordingly. So it must be
with the Noble Viscount. If he refused to produce evidence which
he had caused to be taken, and ought to lay before the House, he
must be content to have it presumed that its contents were most un-
fisvou 'able to himself. What had been the practice with reference
to other commissions ? His noble and learned friend knew very
well that in the case of the Chancery Commission to which he had
himself adverted, the evidence was printed, to enable those who had to
consider the subject to draw their own conclusions—though that was,
perhaps, an instance in which few persons would have objected to the
commissioners forming their own. And yet in the present case,
here were twenty persons drawing whatever conclusions they pleased,
and the House without evidence was called upon to act on the
faith of their representations. Was ever anything so monstrous?
Was ever such a proposition addressed to an assembly of reasonable men
—addressed, too, by a judge of transcendent power, who had held the
Great Seal for a series of four years—who administered justice occa.
aiona:ly in that place, but on whose judgment on a question of law, when
it became a political one, he set little value, much as he might respect it
when delivered in a court of justice.—(Cheers.) That which answered
the purpose of the Noble Viscount and his Noble and Learned Friend,
the Commissioners had produced—that which did not promote their ob_
jest, they had discreetly withheld.—(Here considerable amusement was
create by Lord Brougham's referring to a blue volume of most ponde-
rous appearance.) Oh, the volume his Noble and Learned Friend was
so ostentatiously producing, would not answer his purpose. It was a
judicious selection, perhaps, given him by his friend Mr. Joseph Parkes.
—(Cheers and a laugh.) His Noble and Learned Friend had treated
the objection that the Corporation Commission wad illegal as monstrous
and absurd; but he had spent half an hour, nevertheless, in combating
a case on which he (Lord Lyndhurst) had openly toad him he placed not
the slightest reliance whatever. The present Chief Baron gave it as his
opinion, that the Commission was illegal. A distinct and separate opi-
nion to that effect was given to the towti.clerk of Leicester. He aced
upon that opinion, and refused to produce another document. The
town clerk had a little communication with London. The late Soli.
citor-General, Sir William Follett, was consulted, and he gave a similar
opinion—namely, that the Commission was illegal.
Lord BROUGHA 31—I beg your pardon.—(Cheers, and cries of
"Order.") I beg your pardon—that it was not compulsory upon him
to attend.—(Gweat cheering.)
Lord LYNDHURST-1 hat it was mere waste paper. That was
the opinion. I will come to that in a moment. Now, I know that a
Noble and Learned Lord, who presided for five and twenty years it

l'
legal injustice the magistrates-were ae.;nittsed—, e
s r'ecue
to knowli unether the
by the Com
miss I.s
ioners them,elves [cheers). He ehoulit-
perversion of the evidence in the case of Alderman Harper was wilful
or accidental. Ile had seen the evidence; there was .7111. one indivi-
dual to whom it teal apply;-ha was examined, the 6,-'dence was
taken down by a short-hand writer, and was as clear and dts!ince as
possible. The Duke of Newcastle was the individual who procured the
place referred to in the evidence; it was alleged, and counsel at the
bar was ready to prove it, that Lord Fitzwilliam was the person whose
interest was employed on the occasion; end the individual for whom
Mr. Harper voted was Mr. Crump. Now, when they found such errors
as these, they were -surely entitled to ask for further evidence [hear,
hear tj. Could they safely rely on the conclusions of Commissioners who
were capable of committing such gross blunders [cheer-I? Then as to
Mr. Crump, it was stated that he was in the enjoyment of a pension
which he received from the 'Duke of Newcastle. How stood the fact ?
Why that he had actually been dead many years, and that his (Lord
Lyndhurst's) Noble Friend the Duke of Newcastle had granted the
pension in question to him as a charity many years before. The Noble
and Leaned Lord then referred to two corporations adverte i to in the
Commissioners' Report, the name of the first we could not catch; but
the substance of the charge war, that the Commissioners, with reference
to it, had examined only e itnerses who had been engaged in a Chancery
suit against the corporation, in which they had been defeated, and re-
fused to take down the replies, explanations, and denials of the deputy
steward. The second case was that of Coventry, in which the Commis.
sinners had quoted the authority of an anonymous solicitor in different
parts of their Report, as if it had been the testimony of several indiyi.
duals instead of one and the same person ; it appearing on inquiry that
they raided to an individual formerly in the office of the town-clerk who
had been dismissed from his situation for expressing a wish to see the
churches pulled down, and the fragments broken up to inacad.::so
the roads with. Upon this evidence, then, their LCirelshipe Were to
rob men of their" franchise without trial [Opposition chest's]; rob
them of their property—not merely corporate pllipsrty, but property
belonging to them as individual members of the Corporation.
Let their Lordships mark this efthct of this Bill. many freemen had
rights of commons for their llves, and for their sans, grandsons, and d-
seendants for all time. It was a quasi foe; and the only qualification
required was, that each in his turn should take up his freedom. Now
what did this Bill do ? It said to the freemen, " lou shall enjoy it for
your life; and your son, if now born, shall enjoy it after you, but it
shall not go any further." Was that an act of justice?
.All this was
argued in the House of Commons in a most masterly mariner by Sir
William Follett, but it was addresetsd to insensible oars. They were
going to reduce these corporetions to mere democracies—to so many re-
publics—lnstead of having them as rnoilols of the constitution of the
country. And for what purpose, my Lords, is this to be done ? Why
that they may serve as models for a change in that constitution itself.
(Opposition cheers.) My Lords, it will come to that. If you sufFer
this Bill to pass in its present shape, you can make no defence for the
Church, no defence for your own privileges, but by one step after ano-
ther all must go.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) If you violate corpo-
rare rights, you must then violate the property of the Church. It is ins.
possible for you to stop. I therefore call upon, my Lords, to pause—to
consider well.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Do notdo anythinglike an
act of injustice, and thcn you are safe. The Noble and Lear ned Lord then
adverted to the characters of the electors and the elected in the new corpo.
rations. The electors were to be householders. If their Lordships looked
at the list, they would find that persons occupying under 101.
were twice the number of those above that amount; and that inferior
classes of persons were always of the movement party. Thus the inteili.
gent and respectable classes would be swamped by the great mass of the
lower classes. His Noble and Learned Friend had said that this state
of things existed in other countries. True; but then there were coun-
tervailing impediments. But there was no check provided by this Bill;
these persons were to be treated as the absolute council ; for as mem.
bees of the council, no qualification was required. Not only so, but one
third of these were to go out every year ; they would therefore be com-
pelled to submit to pledges, and to dictations of every kind by their
eiectors. Proofs existed of this system in the case of Members of the
House of Commons, where the constituency was of a higher character,
and the persons to be operated upon also of a higher character. Vs hat,
then, could their Lordships expect from a municipal body so composed ?
The same observations applied to the mayor. Was ever such a consti.
tuition of a Government formed to administer the affairs of a great peo.
pie? He would appeal to the wisdom and discretion of his noble and
learned friend (L rd Brougham.) He had seen the Bill prepared
by his noble and learne 1 friend, and what did he propose ? The
electors were to be ten-pound householders; the council were to have
a qualification of a thousand pounds, and the mayor was also to
have a similar qualification. That was two years ago ; but mark
how they had advanced in the career of reform since that period. In I
the Bill of his Noble and Learned Friend he provided for a race of al.
dermen to be appointed for life—(great Opposition cheering.) In fact,
his Noble and Learned Friend's corporation was formed upon the model
of many corporations existing in this kingdom. He would then ape
peal to his Noble and Learned Friend, excited as he might be now, but
sober as he was then—(Laughter)—and ask him whether he must not
agree, at all events, that the present measure should be altered to the
extent of making it correspond with his own measure of two years
ago ? But again, look at the powers to be given to the town council.
They would possess all political influence, and would have the dispensa-
tion of Church patronage. It was said that Dissenters were members
of corporations already. True; but no evil had yet arisen ; but here
they were courting evil. The power of granting licenses had been as-
signed as a source of jobbing with magistrates ; but what jobbing would
there not be if this Bill should pass? Then the magistrates were to be
nominated. The Noble Viscount had said that the Crown had not any
power now to appoint these borough magistrates; but then, by the form
of the charters, the matter was so arranged that, of necessity, persons of
respectability were alone appointed. The council, too, were to have
the whole power and direction of the police; the police were to be
under the direction and dictation of the lowest classes ; those upon
whom the police were to act were themselves to choose the police.
These were great evils. His noble and learned friend well knew the
care, caution, and accurate inquiry that took place in the Court of
Chancery before new trustees were allowed to be appointed. But who
were the trustees to be here appointed ? Persons without any qualifi-
cation, to be appointed by the town council; giving no security for
their conduct, or to satisfy them that they might not be persons of the
lowest description. Could anything be so monstrous, so absurd, and
unjust ? Then, again, the town council were to have the power to
make rates. Never was a thing so monstrous. These are the fea-
tures of the Bill: Are your Lerdships prepared to pass it without
evidence? Do you not see, and agree with-me, that under pretence to
pass a Bill to regulate Corporations, it is a party job —(Loud Opposition
cheers.) It is brought forward for party purposes, to supply the defi-
ciencies of the Reform Bill, to destroy the Conservative interest in this
and the other House of Parliament, in order, for a shiest time—and,
try Lords, it will be but a short time—(Opposition cheers'—that the
Whigs may triumph over them.—(Cheers.) My Lords, I agree that we
oug it to hear witnesses at the bar, and I shall therefore support ti
amendment

Lord BROUGHAM rose to explain; but was so much interrupted
by cries of " Spoke," that we could not distinctly hear the points to
which his Lordship's explanation referred:- One word as to his Bill :
he did bring it in; but when he did so, he stated that there were two
points upon which he had great doubts ; one was the appointment of
aldermen for life; and the other, the qualification of householders.
A conversation then took place between Lord LYNDHURST, Lord
Mote:nem, and Lord WHARNCLIFFE, but we could not catch the pur-
port of it.
The Earl of RADNOR. thaught that the real question before
their Lordships was, whether evidence should be heard at the bar of the
House. The speech of the Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst)
clearly w. ,s for throwing the Bill out altogether. But taking the view
which he did of the subject, he should not go into a discussion of the
provisions of the Bill. Nor would ne enter into a discussion as to the
merits or demerits of the Commissioners, a point on which the Noble
and Learned Lord appeared to have more information than himself;
but from the credit a hich the Noble and Learned Lord gave to some of
those gentlemen, in the latter part of his speech, he could not think their
conduct had been altogether so outrageous as it had been described.
With respect to the claim that evidence should be heard, it might be
all very well-for Counsel to make that claim, but he believed that when
they made it they did not expect that it would be complied with, for
they must have been aware that on a former night, the general under-
standing was that evidence should not be taken, and that counsel should
be heard at the bar simply on the principle of the Bill, and not in rela-
tion to the facts alleged by the Report.—(hear, hear!) Much hail
been said of the strong allegations of counsel, and of their professions
of readiness to prove these allegations by witnesses. Though
not a professional man himself, he however knew enough of
professional practice not to place the most implicit reliance on these
kind of averments made by counsel, who, when they believe d they
would net be called on to prove their case, frequeetly made statements
which they would find it very difficult, legally, to substantiate. Sir
Charles Wetherell and Mr. Knight spoke, as all Counsel speak, from
their briefs, and the statements made by them we: not their statements,
but the statements of the town clerks, the statements of the parties who
were peen Early interested in opposing this measure.—(Hear, hear.) But
it had been urged that that was in itself a reason for caking witnesses,
it, order that the house might ascertain whether their averments were
true or not—(Opposition cheeers.) For his part, he could not admit
the force of that argument, and the reason was obvious. This Bill was
not founded upon the Report ; it was not founded upon any of the par.
ticular statements at which these town clerks cavilled; but it was
founded, as the Bill for reforming the Representation of the people was
founded, upon the notoriety of the fact that such a Reform was neses-
sary.—(llear, hear.) That Corporation Reform was requisite nobody
denied. It had been admitted by the Noble Lord who moved the
Amendment ; it had been admitted a few nights since, if he remem.
bered rightly, by the Noble Duke opposite (Wellington, we believe); it
had been admitted by the Noble Earl who spoke from tire lower benches
( Winchilsea) ; it had been admitted by the Noble and Learned Lord
who spoke last; and it had finally been admitted even by the Counsel at
the bar. Sir C. Wetherell had allowed that, in the instance of Bristol,
with which he was connected, some Reeorm was n, cease, y. This,
their Lordships would remark, came from this gentleman's own per.
sonal knowledge ; he was not then speaking from his brief, and yet he
(Lord Radnor) doubted whether the Corporation of Bri-tol would give
quite so ready an assent to their Recorder's proposition as that gentle.
man might imagine. Mr. Knight had stated, on the part of the Cor.
',orations generally, that he did not believe they wonld object to some
reform ; an admission which he (Lord Radnor) attributed, however,
not to any love or desire for Reform, but which he rather considered
to be forced from them by what they could not but perceive was the
general feeling, not only of the public generally, but even of their Lord.
ships. Indeed it was now quite surprising to find that everybody was
a Corporation Reformer, though it might peilieps be a matter of some
curiosity to inquire how it was that, with all this great love for muni
cipal reform, not a word on the subject ever escaped the Corporations
till this Bill was brought before Parliament. But then the Corpora.
tions, though they did not object to Reform, objected to the manner in
which this Bill proposed to accomplish it. Any defects in the ex.
isting system could, it was said, be remedied by the Crown granting
new charters, to contain provisions for
,that purpose. But there were
two parties to that bargain. Before the Crown could grant new char-
ters, they most first of all prevail on 200 or 300 corporations to sur.
render their 01,1 ones. What success wound be likely to attend such
an attempt as this, needed not be told.—.(hear, hear I) Then, as to the
bugbear of depriving corporations of the r property, it might be ima-
gined, from the outcry raised on this point, that the property be.
longed to the members of corporations for their own personal, indivi-
dual benefit; whereas they only he'd the property as trustees for others:
they held it, to be applied to certain purposes. The new corpora.
tions would, under this Bill, hold the same property; upon the Fame
trusts; and the property would be approprieted to the same purposes,
and expended in promoting the same object as heretofore. He did
not think that these apprehensions were seriously entertained crest
by those Who put them forth. If the Noble and Learned Lord opposite
had regarded this Bill with so serious an alarm as the earlier part of his
speech indicated, he did not think that Noble and Learned Lord would
have treated the matter as he afterwards did. Indeed, if the Bill
deserved the character which he gave of it, the Noble and Learned
Lord, and those who took the same view, were imperatively
hound to reject tlsei Bill at once, and absolutely, instead of tam.
tiering with well grave dangers, as they were doing by the course they
had now adopted. In reference to the statement made by the Noble
and Leaned Lord, that the Corporation Commissioners had transcribed
the report of the Commissioners of Chat Rice till they came to a compli-
ment to the Corporation, he believed, though lie had heard the elate.
went before, that it was erroneous ; fee hg pt,yll appiled to their Ler&
hLaoC:rdm beenhmt4l
ships' librarian for the Renert oeilie Chalets, Commissioners in Coventry,
rtnd that Gentleman, alter a search, had acquainted him that the
eslstliiren:efs:rtsr,
,i‘irlethecldastdti
ovoefiiiomtaas White'snrb ypaeicrsttphectldetrnetli
toya,ni4latn•Ctstoledcviloe:lfi,tocti
rrynfqttrrhaymet,
exclusive
y:
lc
übh
heh,
been
much abused by the corporation for their own prieete benefit, and that
statedN Charity
bNoble
the eligaity
benefit of freemen, bet fbr purposes which were general to the iota.
bitants of the city, 'Were the aftleirs of these corporations likely to be
better managed by trust.wert4y people elects: by these who had the best

I the Court of Chancery, and with whom I conversed upon the subject,
expressed his decided opinion to me that the Commission was illegal.
You cannot enforce it ; you have no right to enforce it. If I had no
other ground on which to rest, I would put my finger on the passage
from which my Noble and Learned Friend flinched ; because I marked
his reading closely, and when he came to the word " deeds," he omitted
it.—(Cheers )
Lord I3ROUGHAM—Because I never read the Commi,sion.—
(Lend Cheers, and cries of " Order.") No, nu. I really must be
allowed to say that 1 never read the Commission. I merely referred
to the Commission of 1830. (Cheers.)
Lord LYNDHURST—You compared the one with the other.
Lord BROUGHAM—I never--(Loud cheers, and cries of "Order ")
I am sure my Noble and Learned Friend does riot wish to misrepresent
me. I never read the words of the Commission.—(Cheers.)
Lord LYNDHURS T-1f my Noble and Learned Friend says so, I
withdraw the observation.
Lora BROUGHAM—I assure you I did not.
Lord LYNDHURST—Very well, then, I withdraw the observation
at once. Of this lam certain, that no person, no individual, no corpo.
ration can be bound or compelled by that commission. What are the,
terms of the instrument ? It confers upon the commission " Full
power and authority to cause all and singular the officers belonging to
the said corporations to bring and produce upon oath before you, or any
one or more of you, all and singular charters, rolls, records, orders,
deeds," and other instruments in their posse..sion. My Lords, the thing
cannot be done. The King can give no person full power and autho-
rity to demand any man, or body of men, to produce the title.deeds
belonging to him or them. It cannot be done even by the Court of
Chancery, unless a case is made out; a bill must previously be filed,
stating that a particular estate is held in trust. This bill the party in
possession of the estate answers; and unless he admits, in his answer,
that the estate is held in trust he cannot be required to produce the
deed If we are told that without any proceeding in a court of justice,
the King can confer full power and authority upon a commission to
require persons to produce deeds=:.(liere some interruption from Lord
Brougham, which did not reach us, occasioned considerable confirsion
and loud cries of " Order")—all I can say is, my Lords, that I deny any
such right in the Crown. My Noble and Learned Friend has alluded to
an instrument which passed the Great Seal when I wax in office. There
Is no mention of " deeds" in that instrument. It refers to " all re-
ceipts, documents, papers, and writings."
Lord BROUGHAM—Other writings.—(Order, order.)
Lord LYNDHURST—Papers and " other writings." Well, my No-
ble and Learned Friend full well knows that these words, in legal con.
struction, mean papers and other writings of a similar nature and c!ra.
racter.—(Cheers.) I entertain the highest respect for my Noble and
Learned Friend, and do not mean for one moment to contend that he is
in the wrong. He is a man of great learning, and has had full as much
experience, and has laboured quite as hard : lam bound to defer to his
opinion, but he will at least allow me to retain my own.—(Cheers.) The
Noble and Learned Lord proceeded to observe that the Commissioners
had stated that in a great majority of the towns they visited there existed
a feeling of dissatisfaction with the existing Corporations. It afterwards
turned out that out of 100 cases, this dfssatisfaction existed in only 30
or 40 : and even in them it was founded upon particular allegations and
representations, which, when they came to be investigated, were disco-
vered to be utterly unfounded.—(clfeers.) So much for the general dis.
satisfaction. Then as to the management of their revenues, there was
a general charge in the first instance which afterwards dwindled down
to three or four cases, and it was rernarkab'e that in the case to which
his noble, and learned friend had adverted—the borough of Tiverton
—it had a popular corporation—there was greater mismanagement
than in almost any other case.—(hear, hear.) It was the same in
the corporation of Berwick, with which the noble and learned lord
was well acquainted; and it turned out upon inquiry that the charge
of plip!.. wepint.did not so much apply to Use close self-elected
Corporations as to !hose in tyhich the elpetion of the Corporate Body
was especially popular. Then as to the administration e; justice, his
NoWp grid yearned Friend had argued with considerable sarcasm
that wricp anything wrong or improper connected with the administra.
Cop of justice came to light, it yonnrally hat; reference to corporation
jcetice and pot to county justice. i,,Tew the result of his (Ford l,ynd-
horst/g) experience on the bench was that the majority of emnplaints
of this nature were against county magistrates, and on looking to the
dcetnieretitS bed the Houae, he Pound that In almost every ease of al.