The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-09 00:00:00

they were pursuing a fatal (entitle in thus proceeding to
enact new measures of coercion, without accompanying it
with those healing means—that solid amendment and ra-
-1 dical change, which the whole system of the Church E;ta-
olishment so loudly demanded. If the measures of severi-
ty were only introduced for a season, and osete accompa-
niedl with those other measures! to which he had alluded,
he confessed he shcella: not much object to such a pro-
ceeding. severity might he necessary, but measures of
reconciliation and reform might to he tried at the same
time; at all events, there could not be a second opinion
upon this—that before they went into Committee, they
ought to be furnished with. the views and information of
Government as to the sources whence all the existing dis-
content had sprung. It was particularly desirable to know
whence that resistatwe which so engaged their attention had
arisen. Before they went into the Committee and gave their
consent to any resolution, it was necessary to know
precisely the causes and origin cf the resistance to the
levying of tithes. It w?s his belief that this resistance
did net sprint.,—and it was his duty to state it was his
opinion—that this resistance did not spring in ge-
neral from any species of exaction and oppression
on the party of the clergy.—(Hear, hear.) Such
was certainly not the case. The clergy of Ireland exer-
cised their legal rights with singular disinterestedness and
moderation, and they did not by many degrees enforce
their legsl rights. He was bound to say that they con-
ducted themselves with the greatest temper and modera-
tion. He wiehod to l.e understood as bearing his humble
teastiosany to the moderation of the clergy of the Esta-
blished Church in Armagh. I: appeared, then, that it
was not exaction and oppression which caused the resist-
ance. The clergy took nothing like the tenth part of the
produce of the soil. Ile recollected the case of one gen-
tleman, e. witness, who was examined before the Corns
mittee—a gentleman adverse to the collection of tithes,—
who, on being examined, stated that he held a farm of
700 acres, which was rated at a rent of 1,0001., and the
[
amount eu tithe he paid was 501.—(Hear, hear)—which
; was not above 1-25th of the rent. Supposing the produce
to be double of the rent, the tithe, therefore, was not
above 1-30th of the produce. In many parishes in Tip-
perary he believed that the tithes were not 1-14th of the
rental; and supposing the produce the double of the
1 rental, that made the tithes only 1-2.9 th. There were
seventeen cases of this kind before the Committee. The
tithe agent-31r. Palmer, he believed—stated that, in
general, the tithes did not exceed the fiftieth part of the
produce. In the whole• province of Ulster the exaction
was, he believed, still mare moderate. In Tipperary, in
the county of Dublin, in the province of Ulster, the tithes
were moderate. It was very different, he believed, from
the. tithe system of England. If he were not misinformed,
it was not unusual here, he believed, to exact a third of the
rental. Generally, he might say, the exaction exceeded
one-fifth. It was not, therefore, from exaction and op-
pression ; and he wished this to be clearly understood, in
justification of the clergy, and for the better knowledge of
the question—he wished it to be clearly understood that
the avarice and oppression of the clergy were not the
sources whence the resistance had arisen.—(Hear, hear.)
Whence, then, did it arise? That was the important
question.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Why did he ask this?
Because that was the important question for the repre-
sentatives of the country. It arose, as there arose among
the people of England—the sober people of England
—at a former period, the period of the Reformation, a
new religion, and the people could not be brought to see
with patience th it the great mass of the community was
of one religion and the Church Establishment of another;
that they should be of one creed, and their pastors and
moral teachers of another.—(Hear, I ear.) But that was
the case of Ireland. There the majority of the people
were of one religion, and there the instructors, the moral
teachers, and paid clergy, were of another. That was
the great blunder which hail been committed. Of all the
blunders ever committed by Irishmen, of all their hulls,
there was something ludicrous, some stroke of wit, some
touch of merriment, some ninth—hut in this Bill there
was no redeeming quality ; it had no merriment, no mirth,
no laughter, in it. The Establishment was strange to the
disposition, and provoked the opposition, of the people.
He wished it to be understood, that the opinions of the
people were in opposition to the institutions of that
ci,untry. That was at the r .ot of this difficult question.
That had been, he believed, the source of the difficulties of
Ireland through many ceuturies—(Hear, hear)—and the
great cause of her crimes, miseries, and distractions.—

(Heer, hear, hear.) Other circumstances might have
some effect. It was impossible to mingle in society and
not perceive that there was a visible, if not a strong cur-
rent setting in against the payment of any religious esta-
bliehment maintained by the State.—(Hear, hear.) Such
a current had certainly set in against religious establish-
ments. When did any individual hear a society of
ten or twelve persons discussing the merits of religious
establishments, and find any one of them maintaining that
such establishments should be of the religion of the small
minority of the people ?—(Hear, hear.) Such opinions
were gaining ground, and were also at the root of this evil.
—(Hear, hear.) The people, the whole people nearly,
were going one way, and the Church Est iblishrnent an-
other.—( Hear, hear.) He begged it might be understood
that the opposition was not confined to the Roman Cathe..
lies. God knows it wou'd be difficult enough if it only
went to that extent. But that was not its limits by any
means. What was the opinion of the Presbyterians ? They
were a numerous body., and what opinions did they hood
as to tithes? Undoubtedly they were one and ail for
what was called a free trade in religion. They wished
that every man should pay his own Minister, that every
man should support his own Church, and not pay for
another. That was the sentiment of the great majority
of the Presbyterian population of the nothern part of Ire-
laud. But what was the opinion of the Protestants of the
Episcopalians of Ireland ? He sheuld like to know what
answer would lie given by the men who were deno-
minated Protestants of Ireland, if they should be called
on to pty the Presbyterian Minister? or who could
picture their rzge, should they be called on to pay tithes
to the Popish priests?—(Hear, hear.) He believed the
sturdy yeoman of the North, on whom such a demand was
made, would give them to understand that he bore the
King's arms, and that he would not submit to support an
institution that he regarded as an injury, and that he would
not pay a clergyman from he received no henefit.—( Hear,
hear.) He should. think those men justified, and they
were, lie believed, generous enough to concede to others
the privilege of acting on principles of which they them-
selves approved. They made considerable allowance, then,
for the feelings of their Catholic countrymen, and went
along with them to a considerable degree. Whether that
was right or not, that was, he believed, the fact. But was
the House sure that the Protestants, who were supposed
to he most attached to the Government—was the House
sure that they wished to maintain the Church Establish-
ment as it now existed ? Was the House sure that the
Protestants were satisfied—that they approved of the dignity
assumed by the Bishops, and of the pomp, wealth, and
splendour, they exhibited, while the poor working clergy
were obliged to put up with the most miserable pittance ?
He believed that no man was to be found, and undoubt-
edly there were but few Protestants, who did not wish to
see that the payments in the Established Church were in
some measure proportionate to the service performed.
The humble curate had been described as rising at six in
the morning, to say the morning prayers ; he rose from
his dinner to repeat the evening service; he it was who
baptized and who married—and for all these labours he
received little or nothing. With that system the Pro-
testants were not satisfied.—(Hear, hear.) Ti e im-
portant question for the House, then, was, bow would it
deal with the Church ? How would it deal with the
tithes—how would it deal with the whole question be-
tween the Church and the people ? Was the Church
property to continue as at present distributed ? He did
not apprehend that Parliament could give security to the
present distribution much longer. Whet, then, was to be
done ? Would the Establishment not be better if some
proportion were established between the institutions and
the opinions of the people ? At least something must be
done, and that speedily. The great source of the com-
plaints and of the mischiefs of Ireland was the lateness of
legislation. That which, granted to-day, was received
only with gratitude, if delayed till to-morrow was alto-
gether unfit, and was received with distaste. What was
to be done? He believed that he was not stinting any-
thing but what was publicly known, and he was stating
nothing but what had transpired in the Committee ; but
he was, he believed, stating an opinion of a dignitary of
the Church delivered in the Committee, though, us that
dignitary was cross-examined, and he was tint
present at the cross-examination, lie would not men-
tion the name of the individual: and he would
not state what he was about to say as the opinion of
that dignitary—he would mention it as his own. It was
however, suited to the occasion and his sentiments of duty.
The question was, what could the House do to meet the
difficulty—what practical measure could it adopt ? He
would state, then, as his opinion, that respecting ri
ghts
and ri hts
and privileges of every existing interest--for he would
never, for the sake of any reform, sacrifice the right of
individuals—but certainly would proceed to consider all
ecclesiastical benefices, as they became vacant, at the dis-
position of the country ; and he would make the applies-
tion of their revenues as best accorded with the spirit of
the country, and with its circumstances.—(Hear, hear..)
That was the line of conduct which ought to he adopted
to meet the circumstances of the 'case.• As lung as the
Church was in opposition to time people, no measure woulo