The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-24 00:00:00

COMMITTEE BUSINESS.

Mr. HUNT rose to make a complaint of the manner
in which private Bills were disposed of in Committee.
and also to ask for information from the Speaker. He
ha I received a letter from Manchester, which stated that
a Bill was before the House and going into a Committee,
of which the rate payers were wholly ignorant ; that it
contained many grievances, and was being smuggled
through the llouse. . .

The SPEAKER asked the lion. Mem!)er if be in.
tended to present any petition?

Mr. HUNT-NO.

The SPEAKER—Then the Honourable Member
for the borough of Preston, is making a charge in a way in
which the House ought not to receive it, and it is also an
ex-parte statement. If the Hon. Member wished to ask
me a question as to the made of doing business—not in the
House, but before a Committee of the House—it would
have been better if he had communicated it to me pre-
viously.—(Hear. )
Mr. HUNT—Then I will not ask the question ; but,
Sir, I complain that there is a private Committee sitting
on this Bill, in which I think there is smuggling.
_ _

The SPEAKER—Order, order. The Hon. Member has
no right to do that. If there were any persons injured by
what has been done in the Committee, the readiest way of
proceeding is by petition.—(Hear.) Is the Hon. Member
on the Committee ?

Mr. HUNT—Yes, Sir, and I have to complain of what
took place when I was present.

The SPEAKER—I wish the Hon. Member had ac-
quainted me with his complaint before. Is the Hon. Mem.
her the Chairman ?

Mr. HUNT.

No, I am not.

The SPEAKER—I will interrupt the Hon. Member
no further, but I must beg that he will use Parliamentary
language in any statement that be may make, for it was
prejudging a case, and it was impedimentary, to use the
word smuggling.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUNT then proceeded. He had been applied
to by parties at Manchester to attteud the Com-
mittee and watch the progress of the Bill,
the parties stating that they had no notice of it.
On going in he found only the Noble Lord, the
Member for the county of Lancaster (Lord Stanley) as
Chairman, and also the other Member fur the county (Mr.
Heywood), who were preparing the clauses of the Bill.
lie asked the Chairman if the rules of the House per-
mitted only two Members of a Committee to pass the
clauses of a Bill, and he was answered that there had been
five Members, but three had gone, and two who were left
had the power of proceeding without them, according to the
rules of the House. He then entered his protest against such
a proceeding, and moved that the Committee should ad-
journ, but the Noble Lord declined to put the question.
He made that motion a second time, and the Noble Lord
still refused to put it. The Noble Lord appealed to the
Clerk, who said that the Committee were em-
powered to proceed ; he, Mr. Hunt, protested against
an tapped to the Clerk, and moved an adjournment
for the third time, but it was again refused to
be put. Two other Members then came in which
being in his opinion sufficient, he did not wish the ques-
tion of adjournment to be put; but then the Noble Lord
insisted on putting it. He had therefore been anxious to
ask the Speaker if such a proceeding by two Membe:s of
a Committee, was in conformity with the rules of the
House ?

The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member had asked an
abstract question, and he could only therefore give an
abstract answer. If he were asked if the contested
parts of a Bill could pass a Committee without the
Committee being full, he should say they could not. If he
asked if any question could be carried in the House when
less than forty Members were present, he should say that
simple questions might be carried, although it was compe-
tent for any Member to move an adjournment. He
would only answer the Hon. Member's question by
illustration ; it depended greatly on the convenience
of parties, and upon the subject matter and importance
of the Bill. The same Members were frequently in three or
four Committees, and unless they possessed the power of
übiquity, they could not attend all at one time. Therefore
a great deal must, of necessity, be left to the discretion of
a Committee, relying upon their doing nothing without
proper authority, and leaving parties wbo might be ag-
grieved at any tiling done, to their remedy by petition. He
was unable to give a more particular answer to so general
a question.—( Hear.)
Lord STANLEY said, although there was no motion
before the House, yet as a complaint had been aimed
against him, he hoped to be permitted to say a few words
in his own justification.—(Hear.) The Member for
Preston was correct in saying, that at one particular time
there were but two members of the Committee present;
but he had not stated what was stated to him, via. that
the parties originally opposing the Bill had withdrawn that
opposition, and had consented to it—that all the differences
had been made up, and that the Hon. Member was the only
person objecting to it. He, Lord S. might, perhaps, ac.
cording to the strict letter of the rules of the House, have
been incorrect in proceeding with the Bill, while only two
Members were present, but under the c,rcumstances above
stated, he conceived himself justified in going on. The Hon.
Member had stated that he moved an adjournment of the
Committee, and that he (Lord S.) refused to put the ques-
tion ; to that assertion he gave a thorough and flat denial.
--(Hear, hear.) He told the Ilon. Member that if he
insisted on putting that motion, he must of course put
it, and the committee must break up ; he therefore put it
to the lion. Member, knowing that many persons were in
town upon the business who wished to return as speedily
as possible, whether he would persist on. a mere matter of
form in postponing the proceedings before the committee,
when every purpose was answered and all parties were agreed.
Other Hon. Members then came in,, and a full Com-
mittee was formed. The Hon. Member then objected to
his putting the motion, because be said his reasons were
net stated. In doing what he had done he thought be
was acting right.—(Hear.) Some delay took place
in consequence of his urging the Hon. Member to con-
sider the propriety of persisting in his motion, but he
trusted the House would not consider him guilty of any
great error in what he had done.
The SPEAKER saw no reason, from the combined
statements that had been made, to alter the opinion be bad
already given, and he thought it would be only wasting
the time of the House to go further, provided both Hon.
Members were satisfied.

Mr. HUNT then rose to address the House, but
Lord MILTON thought such a course irregular, and
would only be the means of re-opening the whole dis-
cussion.

Mr. HUNT wished only to state one fact, that the
parties complaining, the rate payers, stated that they had
no notice of the Committee.

BIRMINGHAM AND LONDON RAILWAY.

Lord MILTON presented a Petition from the Pro-
prietors of Land in the county of Northampton, praying
that the Proprietors of the Birmingham and London Rail-
way might be charged with Poor-rates, not according to
the line they occupied, but in the ratio of their profits.
Referred to the Committee.

General O'NEIL presented three Petitions from con-
gregations under the Synod of Ulster, against the plan of
Education, proposed by Ministers, for Ireland.

CLERKS OF THE ROADS.

Mr. COOPER presented a petition from Messrs. John-
ston and Co. the newspaper agents of Dublin, complain-
ing of the privileges enjoyed by the Clerks of the Roads.
The petitioners stated, that among many other privileges
which they enjoyed, was that of being at liberty to send
their papers by the penny-post in Dublin free ; whereas
all other newspaper agents were made to pay a penny ; and
though he allowed the post-office was closed at five o'clock
without a fee of a halfpenny, they could send any newspa-
pers_addressed to them up to the very last moment free of
any such imposition. The Hon. Member then proceeded
to read a circular issued by the Clerk of the Roads, which
eulogised the privileges thvy possessed, and urged persons
to take advantage of it. The Hon. Member then proceeded
to state that it was: to the interest of the Clerk of the Roads
supplying newspapers to delay the mails, and to engage
postmasters at afferent towns, to the injury of other news-
paper traders, to deliver their
papers in preference to the
others. The petitioners stated that in mail instances
gentlemen who were subscribers to the Clerks of the Roads
had their papers 24 hours before those who were supplied
by them, and on a complaint being made on the subject

to the Post-Master-General he expressed hie regret that
the many material limitations and restrictions that had been
ulaced upon the Clerks of the Roads had not satisfied the
other newspiper agents, and refused to interfere fgrther.
The Hon. Member made no complaint against the Noble
Duke at the head of the Post-office, as he felt confident
that the case had not properly been brought before him.
The Clerks of the Roads had salaries connected with
other offices that they held, of such a description, as would
make them independent, notwithstanding any arrange-
ment that might now be made.—( Hear.) The Hon.
Member then read the following correspondence between
Messrs Johnston and Company and the General Post-office,
relative to the abuses complained of, to the great injury of
the Press, the mercantile interest, and the public at large.
Chapter Coffee-houie, St. Patin. Chttreh-yard,
18th Feb., 1822.

sus,--I beg to acquaint you that our (Johnston and Co.'s) bag,
containing Newspapers and periodicals, has been detained
by the mate of the steam-packet, and handed by him to Messrs.
Elliott's (parcel agents) servant, who conveys it to Dublin.
These gentlemen state that they are acting under the direction
of Mr. Goddard, Post-office Agent at Holyhead, and sinless
authorised by him cannot deliver it at Howth, and they have
written to that gentleman, who has referred to you for your di.
rections how to act.

I can hardly think it necessary to point out to you the ex-
treme hardship of our case, that a parcel (or bag), the carriage,
freight, &c. of which is paid by us, and the additional expense
of having a confidential person to receive it at Howth, is not to
be delivered to us there, where it is directed, but to be conveyed
to Dublin, and then told that the power rests with the General
Post-office. Now, Sir, give me leave to ask, if this be the case,
may it not be carried to Cork, Belfast, or elsewhere ? To
prevent delay, expedition being our object, we have delivered
to the proper officer of customs of Howth, a key which opens
our bag, and on his examining and discharging it, we consider
we are then fully entitled to receive it, and therefore beg you
will instruct Mr. Goddard by this night's post to cause it to be
delivered to us at Ilowth, on Monday morning, to prevent
further delay. With this exception

I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your faithful humble Servant,
Sir F. Feeling, Bart. ALEX. JOHNSTON, Jun.
General Post-office, Feb. D. 1832.

Sin,—l am commanded by the Post-master General to in-
form you, that, having made the necessary inquiries at Holy-
head, his Grace does not consider it expedient to make any
alteration in the long-established rules and regulations, as to
the conveyance and landing of parcels sent by his Majesty's
packets from that port, as desired by your letter to me of the
ISth instant.

I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
F. FREELING.

Mr. A. Johnston, jun.
Chapter Coffeehouse, St. Paul's Church-yard.

The Hon. Member concluded by recommending th•
case strongly to the attention of Government. The
abuse of the privileges exercised by the clerks of
roads was most extensively injurious, not only to
newspaper agents, but also to the newspapers them-
selves. He felt assured, that if extended, and facility
were given to the transmission of newspapers, great addi-
tion would be made to their subscribers.

Mr. Shaw, Mr. H. Grattan, Captain Gordon, and Mr.
Maurice O'Connell supported the petition.
Lord ALTHORP said, although he could not pledge
himself that what the petitioners complained of would be
remedied, he would give his best attention to the subject.
Mr. HUME considered it of the greatest importance
that public servants should be prevented from interfering
with the business of any other profession. Not only in the
Post office in Dublin, but also in the English Post-office,
there existed great abuses, and he hoped that Government
would take up the subject, if not, it would be his duty to
take the sense of the House on the impropriety of allow-
ing public servants to interfere in dealings with news.
papers, or any traffic i❑ t, hick other persons are engaged.
Lord ALTHORP said the question was, whether there
was not in this case advantages counter-balancing the dis-
advantages.

Sir WILLIAM HORT presented petitions from two
parishes in the county of Kildare, praying for the total
abolition of tithes and church rates in Ireland. The
petitioners humbly submittul that the exaction of tithes
and church rates in Ireland was a grievance without ex-
ample in history—inconsistent with reason—subversive of all
social order, often attended with the loss of human life,
and hostile to the interests and true spirit of the Protestant
religion and of Christianity in any form. The people
of Ireland desired not a commutation of the grie-
vance, but its total abolition.—(Elear, hear.) Nothing
short of this would content or tranquillize the country.
He was aware that there were circumstances which im-
posed upon Government the necessity of exercising discre-
tion on the subject. As this was the first time he bad pre-
sented a petition to the House on the subject
of tithes, he begged leave to state his individual opinion
that the time had come when the House and country
should fairly meet the question of a Church establishment
in Ireland, and that salaries of every description should be
proportioned to the labour given. Every true well-
wisher to the Protestant Establishment desired it to he
brought into those relations that would prevent it from
falling to pieces by its own weight.
Mr. RUTHVEN bore testimony to the orderly con-
duct, in the midst of rather exciting circumstancea, of the
petitioners.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from the Members of
the Council of the Political Union in the eastern part of
London, praying the appointment of a Committee to en-
quire into the history of the introduction, and the pestilen-
tial charaeter, of cholera, as it existed in this country.
The lion. Member stated that he could not concur in the
prayer of the petition, but would venture to offer a sug-
gestion to the Noble Lord opposite, that a regular return
of the number of persons that had died by typhus
and other diseases should, accurately, and upon some fixed
uniform principle, be made. Those that were now re-
turned by the parish clerks of the metropolis were ex-
ceedingly imperfect. He expressed a hope that his Ma-
jesty's Government would lege no time in giving their atten-
tion to this subject, for whilst the deaths by one disease
only were held up to the public without comparison, un-
founded alarm was necessarily superinduced.
Mr. SADLER hoped that the regular system of
registry would in future be adopted, not merely of burials
but of births in the country. There was great importance
attached to this subject, as these calculations governed, in
some measure, the various computations in our public
offices.

Mr. HUME presented three petitions upon the subject
of the Anatomy Bill—one from Leeds, signed by 12,000
individuals, and another from the medical students of the
college of Glasgow, urging the necessity of dissection to
medical art, and the propriety of withdrawing the restric-
tions that were now imposed on it. They suggested that
unclaimed bodies should be allowed to be used for that
purpose. He had a petition from the London College of Me-
dicine. Certain medical gentlemen have associated them-
selves into a body called the London College of Medicine ;
and by their petition they stated the great importance of
affording facility to dissection ; but they considered the
sale of dead bodies would be extremely injurious, and
therefore objected to the clause legalizing the sale of them.
The HON. GIENTLEILAN presented a petition from per-
sons employed in a Cotton manufactory in Lancashire ;
and also from persons employed in a Cotton manufactory
near Stockport, against certain provisions in the Factory
Bill. He also presented a petition from the Friendly
Society of Hull against the Registration Bill ; and
another from the persons confined in Whitecross-street
prison for debt, praying that, as the cholera was in that
neighbourhood, the House would take into its con-
sideration the crowded state of that prison, for the
purpose of being prepared to afford them relief,
and also to avert evil consequences resulting to the com-
munity at large, should the cholera make its appearance
there. The Hon. Member considered this petition well
deserving the attention of his Majesty's Ministers.
TAXATION ON NEWSPAPERS.
Mr. HUME had a petition to present, signed by 900
Members of the London General Political Union, which
prayed for the repeal of all Acts of Parliament imposing
any stamp or tax on newspapers and cheap publications.
The lion. Member prayed the attention of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer in particular to this petition. It stated
such important facts, that he was quite certain
if Government were desirous of seeing the country satis-
fied, they would adopt the suggestions deduced in the
petition from those facts. He was aware of the vast im-
portance of the matter which had lately been press-
ing on the attention of Government, and that only
he considered the reason why it had been left to the pe-
titioners to bring forward the subject as they had done
at this late hour. The petition took a survey of the number
of commitments that had t len place throughout the country
during 1830 and 1831, and sheweil that of those committed,
very few indeed could either read or write, from whence
it was to be inferred that the offences in respect of which
the commitments had taken place, had proceeded en-
tirely from ignorance. The Petitioners, therefore,
contended, that the time was now come when taxes
on newspapers and cheap publications must be put an end
to. There could be no doubt that the revenue would be
touch benefitted by removing all taxation off such publi-
cations, and imposing a trifling postage on the transfer of
those publications. There was no town in America con-
sisting
of 1,000 inhabitants in which there wee not a
daily
newspaper published, and yet in Edinburgh
no daily newspaper appeared. In New York there
were no less than seven, containing all sorts of informa-
tion. This was owing to there being no tax on them
there. By this means information was easy and cheap.
He thought that for conveying newspapers and cheap pub-

lication, a distance of 100 miles, a halfpenny each might
charged by Government, and for upwards of 200 miles
probably a penny. By this system, and without any tax
In the publications, a much Lager revenue would be pro.
laced than was now netted by the Government. In-
formation in this way would br very generally dif-
fused, and in a short time no such distressing occur-
ence would be repeated in this country, as was wit-
nessed yesterday in the neighbourhood of Finsbury.
square, that of forcibly resisting by crowds the speedy re-
moval of persons who had died of the cholera, that others
might not he made to fall victims by unnecessarily keep-
ing the corpses. At the same time he would take all these
taxes off, he would have a school in every parish as there
was in Scotland, and he would have every parish obliged
to educate the children of their respective parishes, as they
were obliged to support them. In New York there was
nut a child, from the ages of four to fifteen years, who
was not put to school ; and in the 8,900 schools in that
province, there were as many attending those schools as
there were of population between the same ages.
The petition was brought up.
GENERAL FAST.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from a person of the
name of Robert Jones, of Liverpool, who stated that the
order for the late General Fist had done a great deal of
mischief by throwing all the labouring elatNes out of em-
ployment during that day, and prayed that in future a re-
petition of such an order should not be made.