The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY 15, 1835.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JuLr 14.
The SrEAKER took the Chair at 5 o'clock.
Mr. D. W. ROCHE presented a petition from the mer-
chants and ship-owners of Limerick, praying for no alteration
in the duties on Baltic timber.
SirJOHN WROTTESLEY presented a petition from the
retail Brewers of Staffordshire against the Excise Duties.
Admiral ADAMS presented a petition from Alloa, against
any alteration in the Timber Duties.
An HoN. MEMBER presented a petition signed by upwards
of 400 freemen of Maidstone, praying for the protection of
their corporate rights.
POST-OFFICE COMMISSION. _

Lord LOWTHER hoped the-HOUse;Of:laindulge him
for a few moments on a matter personal to himself. It would
be seen by the publications of that day, that there was last
night in another place, if he might so term it, a field-day
of Post- Masters General.--( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
He would say in the outset, that serving as a Commis-
sioner, his time had been limited to about two months,
and during that time he attempted, as well as his abilities and
his occupations in that House would allow him, to serve his
Majesty honestly, and to make such suggestions in anim-
portant office in the State as he had thought reason-
able and practicable. There seemed to have existed a dif-
ference of opinion between himself and his Noble Colleague,
about what he had called inaccuracy of dispatch, but which
he (Lord Lowther) had termed something very nearly ap-
proaching to obstruction. He had no difficulty in stating the
circumstances on which he (Lord Lowther) had grounded his
opinion, and he did not wish to retract the term he had ap-
plied of "obstinacy," and in reference to this, he would refer
to the Report of the Finance Committee of 1797 with
respect to a former inquiry into the Post Office. There
was, in his (Lord Lowther's) opinion, but a slight difference
between obstacles and obstinacy, although his late colleague
had disagreed with him as to the term. He was surprised—
although he ought not to be surprised at any thing that had
taken place—( A laugh)--that his Noble Colleague had
forgotten that he had made something of a similar com-
plaint in the Report made by them to the Treasury at
the conclusion of their labours.—( Hear, hear.) At that
period there were several questions before them, and he ( Lord
L.) was particularly anxious that inquiries should be made
into the management of steam-boats and foreign posts. He
would allude more particularly to that presently ; but be
would now read the concluding sentence upon Prices Cur-
rent. He must observe, that there were two or three
subjects on which they had summoned inquiry, but had not ob-
tained sufficient information to make a Report. But in allu-
ding on this subject, to what the Noble Lord had said of his
never having heard anything but alacrity of dispatch in that
department, ho would speak of the concluding sentence of
that Report. He (Lord L.) had stated in it that he had found
that the Commissioners appointed by the Lords of the Trea-
sury in August last, had furnished the Postmaster-General
with a statement of several recommendations of the Commis-
sioners of Revenue Enquiry, and requested him to prepare a
paper, shewing in what cases either these recommendations had
been carried into effect, or the reasons which had prevented
their being adopted.—( Hear.) The Commissioners appointed
by the present Government had asked for this paper, which was
not ready at the time their labours had closed, and it was again
applied for as soon as the Commission was appointed to con-
tinue the inquiry ; therefore, he, ( Lord L. ), conceived that
if he complained of any unwillingness or obstinacy, he had
some right to do so. There was a paper asked
for in August last which had been prepared by an
intelligent Gentleman, Colonel Yorke, who was now private
secretary to Earl Mulgrave. He (Lord L.) understood
that the Noble Postmaster-General went to the Post-Office
to examine what accounts the Commissioners had called for,
and he maintained that there was an unwillingness on the part
of the Post-Office to make the Returns, and they had given no
explanation why that paper was not furnished, although it
would have very much facilitated the inquiry had they done
so. That paper (as we understood the Noble Lord), would
have been putting the Post-office on its trial with respect to
the few recommendations that had not been carried into effect.
He, as well as others, conceived that the public were great
losers by the system, and an account was asked for, but it was
said that it was impossible to give it.. That did not satisfy
him.—( Hear. ) He applied to the Admiralty office, and sent
to Mr. Dawson, who in three days sent him a most precise ar-
count. --( Hear, hear, hear.) He was once a Lord of
the Admiralty himself, and knew the accuracy with which
the accounts were there kept, and he believed the Hon.
Member for Cumberland had improved that system. He went
throuz,h the accounts for one year, and made an abstract.
Inquiry was also made as to the number of letters sent
between London and Calais, and the answer was 134,0001b5.
weight went to Calais in the course of a year, but the
answer from Calais was, that there had been five millions of
franks I He would ask how the Commissioners' could make
this intelligible. He would wish to know whether the re-
venue was a winner or a loser by this system.—( Hear,
hear.) The Postmaster of Jamaica was stated to have
had an income of 4001. a year, with 1601. allowance.
Colonel Yorke was dissatisfied with this, and a clerk in
the Secretary's Office, reluctantly stated that the office was
worth 1,6001. a year. He had not the advantages which were
enjoyed by Lord Maryborough, but he should wish to know
how this 1,6001. a year, and the income of 4001., were to be
reconciled. It was said, the difference was made up by the
sale of newspapers. In the course of inquiry also it was dis-
covered that some money was made by electioneering services.
—( Hear.) These were some of the facts which he could state,
and though he could mention others, he thought he had
stated enough to show that he was justified in following out
the recommendations of the Commissioners of Inquiry of
1797.—( Hear.) He had been selected upon different occa-
sions to make inquiries into the Excise-office, the Tax-
office, and the old Exchequer.—(Loud cheers.) And
the first step to the abolition of That antiquated otE,:e
had been recommended by the Report of himself, and
his Colleague the Honourable Member for the county
of Monmouth. The Exchequer, the Tax-office, and the
Metropolis Roads Committees had received every facility,
and he could assure the House that the difficulties in
the Exchequer did not exceed those which they had
found in the inquiries into the Post-office. He would
.ask,
and he wished the Noble Lord was there to say, what papers
were refused from the Post-office that they did not show alacrity
in producing ? There was no paper or witness called for that
was not before those who made the inquiry. There were
several other minor points; such as that papers were sent un-
signed, which he would not then notice—( Hear, hear, hear)
—the statement he had made, however, was a general
statement he had made of the heads of the difficulties he had met
with. He had stated them candidly. If he had made any rash
assertion he hoped the House would excuse him. He was not
in the habit of taking part in the debates in that House,
but he would venture to say that no one would be more
zealous for the correct despatch of business in all public
offices.—(Loud cheers.) He appealed to the House whether
he had made any rash assertion, and he was ready to bear
any obloquy that might arise from it.—( Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord concluded by moving for a Return
of Papers from the office of the Postmaster-General, stating
which of the recommendations of the Commissioners had
been carried into effect, and which had not, with the rea-
sons for not carrying them into effect.
Mr. VERNON SMITH did not rise to object to the re-
turn moved for ; on the contrary, he was quite willing to agree
to it. He rose simply for the purpose of moving for a copy of
the Report of the evidence sent into the Treasury by the Com-
missioners of the Post Office Inquiry.
Mr. HUME considered that the House was under an ob-
ligation to the Noble Lord for the manner in which he had
brought forward this subject—for the active part he had
taken in it—the time he had devoted to it, and the manner he
had inquired into this department made him a most important
witness. The House was, therefore, much obliged to him,
for coming forward to obtain the fullest information possible, as
to a department which required so essentially to be reform-
ed. He was only sorry that the Noble Lord had not
had justice done him for his labours in reforming the Court
of Exchequer—for he knew but for the obstacles which had
been thrown in his way that Court would have been reformed
ten years ago by the efforts of the Noble Lord. For his own
part he believed that the statements of the Noble Lord were
consistent with his knowledge of the facts, and that the do-
cuments he moved for would substantiate them.

Mr. WALL ACE merely rose to vindicate himself. He
would not trespass on the time of the House, as he was too
sensible of their kindness the other night to forget it. He
adhered to every word he then uttered, and be was prepared to
prove every assertion he had made, if a Committee were granted.
With regard to what had taken place in another House, and
what had been said by a noble person there, he (Mr. W.)
had merely to refer to his speech regarding him on the
6th of August last, as given in the Mirror of Parliament,
and then to ask that Noble Lord whether, after that, he
had not a right to refer to what he had stated.--( Hear,
hear.) With respect to the statements that had been
made by the several Post-masters who addressed another
assembly, he was now prepared to say that, to his mind,
these remarks were perfectly conclusive of their ignorance
of the duties they had to perform.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
Two Noble Lords had said that they had frequently
been obliged to differ from Sir Francis Freeling, and yet
they lauded him to the skies, called him a most im-
portant man, and one well acquainted with the duties of
their office.--( Hear.) There must have been a great
deal of complacency in the composition of those Noble
Lords, when they felt called upon to differ from him
at one moment and laud him at the next. He (Mr. Wal-
lace) bad stated at the table that a felony had been
committed, by letters being opened in Scotland ; and he
had a Return now in his hand, which showed this extraordi-
nary state of things, that those letters had been opened for the
purpose of founding prosecutions upon them. He had
moved for a Return of the number of informations that
had been set on foot upon those latters ; the Return
had been made, but no information whatever was
given by those returns. A very large number of informations
had been brought against a stationer's establishment in Glas-
gow, of the name of Reid. Those informations had been
lodged with his solicitor ; and that solicitor, in his letter
stated that the letter had been put into the office on the 15th
of February, 1833, while the letter itself showed that it was
not written at such a date as to be put in then. The
Return laid on the table stated, that the information had
been lodged upon the 18th day of February, whereas he
held in his hand the eubposna to bring those persons
to justice in the court of Exchequer, dated the 4th of
February, eleven days previous to the time the letter was al-
leged to have been written, and 14 days according to the Return.
He would verify in any place every statement he had made.
One of the Noble Lords had stated that he had an opportunity
of going to the Post-office yesterday to ascertain how far
he could refute the statements that he 4Mr. W.) and

the Noble Lord opposite had made.—(Hear, hear.) In
consequence of that he had thought it his duty to address a
letter to the Postmaster-General, requesting that he might
be permitted to repair to the Post-Office, and there have the
same advantage as Lord Maryborough had had. In answer
to that letter he had received one from -the Postmaster-
General containing a polite refusal.--(Laughter.) He was
ready to make good his assertions, and he would Challenge the
five Noble Lords, who had been successively Postmasters, to a
discussion. He would admit the public—the public Press,
and meet them in any hall in London. —(Cries of " Exeter
Hall," and laughter.) Well, he was ready to meet them in
Exeter Hall, and prepared to refute them.
Mr. LABOUC HERE complained that the same facility
bel not been afforded him that had been afforded to Lord
Meryborough. He had not had any communication with
Lard Lichfield on the subject, but the Honourable Mem-
ber must see that there was a difference between the two
cases. Lord Maryborough had been Postmaster-General.
•
Cvmplaints had been made against the departnient, and he
eekttainly had a right to examine into charges, to see whether
Owl were well or ill founded. He bad made inquiry the
other night relative to the mail-coach contractor and the Money
o;cler officer, and he was informed that a detailed account would
be laid on the table in a few days.
..Dr. BOWRING regretted the course adopted by our Post-
' office authorities in the communication with those of France
relative to alterations in the conveyance of letters and news-
papers. The tone of those connected with the Post-office of
Epgland did them no honour, and he stated so in France.
A conversation then ensued between Mr. Wallace, Lord
Lowther, Mr. Labouchere, and the Chancellor of the Exche-
qloteiro,nsw,hweneriet was understood
eto. the motions, with some modifi-
et
NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
Mr. HAWES wished to ask the Noble Lord (Lord J.
Russell) whether any steps had been taken to afford to the
House the necessary information respecting the building of the
new Houses of Parliament. It would seem that all the ar-
rangements were made in favour of one particular architect.
lc further time were to be allowed, he hoped that every en-
deavour would be made to see whether St. Stephen's Chapel
might not be restored, and in the opinion of some of the best
architects the restoration could easily be effected.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL read a letter from the Chief Com-
missioner of Woods and Forests, stating that no time was to be
lost in building the new Houses of Parliament. In conse-
quence of what had occurred in the House of Lords, appli-
cation had been made .to various architects, some of whom
thought that the whole of St. Stephen's Chapel ought to be
taken down, while others, and among them some very eminent
men, were of opinion that it might easily be restored.
Mr. WA RBURTON thought that no decision should be
come to on the subject till the architects had delivered in their
plans.
Mr. EWART wished to knew from the Chancellor of the
xchequer if he was prepared to give the House any informa-
tion as to the expense for building the temporary House of
Lords ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the question would properly arise on the face of the Report to
be presented to the House, but not before. He should,
therefore, move that a message be sent to the House, of Lords,
requesting their Lordships to furnish this House with a copy
of their own Report as to the erection of the temporary House
of Lords.

Mr. T. B. LENNARD would be glad to know whether,
with regard to St. Stephen's Chapel, the opinion of one par-
ticular architect had been adopted, for some of the most scien-
tific and able men in the profession, such as Mr. Savage, Mr.
Cotringham (the restorer of Armagh Cathedral, and the
Messrs. Gwilt, felt satisfied that the restoration might be
achieved without any difficulty.
Mr. H A WES would again bring forward the subject on
Tuesday next.

The -motion was then agreed to.
ALLEGED BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

Mr. L. CHARLTON said that, in rising to call the atten-
tion of the House to the paragraphs which had appeared
against him in the Morning Chronicle newspaper, he would
withdraw his motion on the subject, upon condition of being
allowed to say a few words without incurring the censure of
the Learned Gentleman the Attorney-General. The paper
in question had indulged in the most virulent abuse against
him, day after day, without once noticing anything he had
said in his own vindication. However, it had recently published
a long letter of his, and he would not inflict upon the House
the task of going through the whole of it. All he asked was
that he might be permitted to read that part of it which re-
futed the calumnies advanced against him. Those calumnies,
however, he should not think of noticing, had not some evil-
disposed person or persons sent the paper containing them 'to
the town which he had the honour to represent. Important
documents were suppressed by the Morning Chronicle, yet he
felt persuaded that the slanderous article of which he chiefly
complained was not written by the Editor, but by the Secre-
tary of the Municipal Commission—that Secretary, who, in
the words of the Commission, was styled by his Majesty, "our
trusty and well-beloved Joseph Parkes."—( Laughter.) He
had the more reason to believe this, because a letter, contain-
ing expressions precisely similar to those made use of against
him in the Morning Chronicle had been addressed to him pre-
viously by " our trusty and well-beloved Joseph Parkes."—
( A laugh.) The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read
an extract from his letter to the Morning Chronicle.
The SPEAKER interposed, observing that as the Hon.
Member had said he did not mean to make any motion on the
subject, all he had since been stating was by the indulgence of
the House. _ .

Mr. CHARLTON—I beg your pardon, Sir. What I said
"was only upon condition---( Order, order.)
The HON. MEMBER then sat down, and the subject dropped.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL expressed his hope that `the Hon.
Member for Weymouth (Mr. F. Buxton), who had a motion
on the paper, would give him precedence while lie moved that
the Municipal Corporations Bill be recommitted.
Mr. BUXTON agreed to do so, but with the understanding
that his motion should come on immediately afterwards.
Mr. W A SON had a motion of a breach of privilege to sub-
mit to the House. The question was, whether bribery at
elections was or was not a breach of privilege ? The Hon.
Member then read the resolution, which pledged the House to
proceed against any parties who were guilty of bribery at elec-
tions, and contended that there was no mode of enforcing it,
unless bribery was held to be a breach of privilege.
The SPEAKER, while admitting to the full extent the
power of the House to inflict punishment for bribery, said, at
the same time, that the House would deal with any general
case of the kind as it thought proper, and that the course now
pursued by the Hon. Gentleman was irregular.
Mr. W A SON must acquiesce in the decision of the Chair.
The House then went into the Committee pro forma, &lad
after a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP, the House re--
mimed, and the Report was received.
Colonel SIBTHORP complained that a certain Bill,
brought in by the Attorney-General, was not yet printed.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was printed, and
had met with the concurrence of both sides of the House.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Noble Lord if any clause had
been introduced in the Municipal Bill to prevent the sale of
Borough property.
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that a clause to that effect had
been introduced.

Mr. C. BULLER, finding it would be impossible for him
during the progress of this Bill to bring forward the motion of
which he had given notice respecting the Mauritius, should
postpone it till the 13th of August next, if the House should
sit so long.
After a few words from Sir GEORGE GREY,

Mr. BORTHWICK was proceeding to make some obser-
vations in reference to the Mauritius, but was called to order,
there being no motion on that subject before the House.
The Report of the Municipal Bill was ordered to be taken
into further consideration on Thursday next.
BRITISH FOREIGN SETTLEMENTS—TREAT-
MENT OF THE NATIVE POPULATION.

Mr. BUXTON said that this question involved the inte-
rests of many millions of men. He had on a former occasion
mentioned numerous instances of the oppressions and cruel-
ties exercised by British settlers over the native inhabitants
in all quarters of the globe. We despoiled them of their
lands and possessions, and exterminated the whole of them
by degrees. The House might bear in mind in reference
to this question, that the lives and property of between
4,000,000 and 5,000,000 of human beings were involved in
the result. In the Indian Islands and the Cape of Good Hope
the number of native inhabitants amounted to 1,000,000. In
Australia and the settlements connected with it, there was a po-
pulation of 2,000,000 or 3,000,000, and the population of the
South Sea Islands and Van Diemen's Land was also very
great. In whatever part of the world British influence ex.
tended the native population had considerably decreased. In
the village of Soretto, near Quebec, the once bold and nu-
merous tribe of the Huron Indians has been reduced to 200.
The Hon. Gentleman then read a letter from the Rev. Dr.
Laing, stating that the native inhabitants of Australia were
fast dwindling away. It appeared that the case was still worse
at the Cape of Good Hope, where, according to Mr. Barrow
the native population was fast declining before the European
settlers. England took possession of Van Diemen's Land in
1803, and since then the great body of the natives had been
destroyed. The lion. Member concluded some further obser-
vations by moving that a Committee be appointed to adopt
measures for ensuring the security of the native inhabitants,
where there are British settlements, and with the view of fur-
thering the progress of civilization and Christianity in those
settlements.
Sir O. GREY did not object to the principle of the mo-
tion. The question was one deeply affecting the national in-
terests, and the fate of thousands of our fellow-creatures. But
could a Committee be appointed on the 14th of July with any
prospect of investigating this subject, the magnitude of which
might be inferred from the terms of the notice ? Would not
the better course be for the Hon. Member to renew the motion
at an early period of next Session? The papers presented to
Parliament in the course of this Session were very voluminous,
and must go before a Committee. It was quite impossible
that any satisfactory inquiry could be gone into, and, there-
fore, sinless some special case couldhe made out by his Hon,
Friend, he hoped his Hon. Friend would content himself with
moving for a Committee, on the understanding that early next
Session he would renew his motion.

After a few words from Mr. Pease, Mr. Hume, Mr. Bag-
shaw, Mr. Hawes, Mr. Roebuck, and Mr. Hoy,
Mr. FOWEL BUXTON concurred in the opinion that
the present was an unsuitable time for bringing on a motion of
this kind. He perfectly agreed in the terms proposed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, viz.—that a Committee should sit
and take evidence, and should then report, and sit again next
Session.

The motion was then agreed to.
INSTRUCTION IN THE FINE ARTS.
Mr. EWART moved for "a select Committee to inquire

into the best means of extending a knowledge of the arts and
of the principles of design among the people (especially among
the manufacturing population) of the country ; and also to in-
quire into the constitution of the Royal Academy, and the ef-
fects produced by it."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was sure
that on the part of the artists of this country, there would be
every disposition to facilitate the objects of the motion, and for
his own part he should throw no obstacles in its way.
Mr. WYSE lamented the present state of the arts in this
country, but congratulated the House that at length there
were some hopes of improvement in this great branch of pub-
lic wealth. _ _

..__.....
Sir R. INGLIS denied that there was any neglect of the
fine arts in this country.
Dr. BOWRING said that the people of France had be-
come artistical by habit, and he believed that the people of
England would soon acquire a mechanical aptitude for the
arts. Works of art in France were open to every person, and
they treated an atmosphere of art, and produced feelings diffe-
rent from what were excited in this country. They produced
a respect for art, which was universally diffused.
:Lord SANDON thought that greater advantages were
likely to accrue to our manufactures than to art itself, by this
motion.
,Lord F. EGERTON cordially supported the motion.
'Mr. R. COLBORNE expressed his satisfaction at the
prospect of a Committee being granted for the purposes of
the Hon. Gentleman's motion ; and his only regret was, that
the Session was so far advanced before the motion was brought
forward.

Mr. POTTER supported the motion.
After a few words from Mr. O'CONNB
Mr. WARBURTON, the following Commi
comprising those Members most distingu
and science on this point:—
Ewart, w. Hawes, B.
Baines, E Heathcoat, J.
Bernal, R. Hume, Joseph
Bowring, Dr. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Brotherton, J. Kerry, Earl of
Bulwer, E. G. R L Lewis, D.
Bulwer, H. L. Mackenzie, J. A. S.
Colborne, N. %V. It. Mahon, Lord
t lay, %V. Morrison, J.
Davenport, J. Murray, J A.
Egerton, Lord Fran. O'Connell, D.
Elphinstone, Howard Oswald, J.
Evans, G. Peel, Sir R.
Fort, John Potter, R.
Grote, G.

;ix, Mr. HUME, and
ittee was appointed,
tished for their zeal

Rice, T. S.
Ridley, Sir M. W.
Roebuck, J. A
Russell, Loid John
Sandon, Lord
Scholefield, J.
Shell, R. L.
Stewart, P. M.
Strutt, Edward
Thomson, C. P.
Warburton, H.
Williams, W.
Wyse, Thomas
Yorke, Elliot Thos.