The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-28 00:00:00

solely upon the personal authority of Ministers. He, for one,
had had an opportunity of looking into the subject minutely
in all its details, and he hat: considered every circumstance of
the case, and he had come to the conclusion that so large
number of troops was unnecessary for the public service.
For eight years after the peace Mt numbers kept up had been
only 75,000 men, and now Government was requiring 7,000
more, although they already had a force of 7,000 armed
policemen in Ireland, 5,000 additional police, and 4,000 po-
licemen in London, besides a new and' extraordinary police
farce in different towns of the country. The country was
anxious to be relieved from taxation, and the House ought to
feel it to be its duty to go into more minute &tails before it
settled the military establishment of the country.
Sir C. D'A LBI A C 'supported the original motion.
Mr. C BULLER hoped that, upon this occasion, all the
friends of economy, and all those who wished for the repeal of-
the Malt Tax, would vote for the amendment.
Colonel C HATT E RTON said a few words, which were
not audible in the Gallery.
Mr GIL LON said the best way to cause justice to be done
to Ireland was to diminish the force. An army was kept up
there to protect abuses. The army of the United States was
not more than 7,000 or 8,000, because the Government was to
unison with the people, and there was no anti-national Church.
Colonel EVANS felt himself bound in duty to support the
amendment. With an efficient police in Ireland and in the
metropolis, he saw no occasion for so large an army. He con-
tended it was quite possible to reduce it, and they were bound
to do so, unless the contrary was clearly proved. There were
serving in the colonies not less thaii 36,000 troops, 41011(1in-1
officers. During the last war, they never had an army a
more than 37.000 Britiah troops to meet the enemy. He felt
coafident that 30 000 men would be amply sufficient for the
colonies; and that 3,000 or 4.000 men might safely be reduced
in England. With respect to Ireland, casery person who
wished for a better Government there ought to support this
amendment.
General Sif A RPE said, the harassing nature of the duties
required of the army both in the colonies and at hooie was
proved by the amount of 'the dead weight. There was not
less than 81,000 invalids, while the whole amount of the error
was only 87.000. He would not consent to the reduction of °-
single man until it was clearly proved to him that his service's'
could be dispensed with.—( Cheers.) The cavalry wee
most useful force. With infantry it was impossible that a riot
could be put down without bloodshed, chile a mob might b#3
easily dispersed be cavalry without doing any great mischief.
Mr. WARBI fRTON supported the amendment. The?
were told the duties of the army were so severe that no reduc-
tion could take place without destroying their efficienca. He
recollected that more than once motions were made for returns
to show the mortality and the number of men invalided in thd
colonies, but they were never agreed to. Was the Right;
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) now prepared to give such
return ?
Sir H. HARDINGE fully agreed with the Gallant Officer
(General Sharpe) as to the inefficiency of infantry compared"!.
cavalry, in putting down riots. Infantry must act either by
fire or by the bayonet, but a mob might be dispersed by horses'
without much mischief. It would not be easy to show what
precise number of men were required in the colonies. Wri/c,-c
ever should attempt to prove it logically would' find him
much embarrassed. The Gallant Officer (Colonel Evans,
was on the Committee of Colonial Expenditure, and must'
therefore know that it never appeared in proof before that Com-
mittee that the troops in the colonies were too numerous.
Mr. HUME said there were at present in the colonie9
5,000 men more than there had been on an average of wadi
previous years. Were not some of the colonies overlaid w 4""
troops? What was the use of 2,500 men in Nova Scotia,
which was perfectly quiet ? The only disturbance which oc-
curred in Canada within the last two years was occasioned by
the military themselves. In Canada 5,000 troops were edit':
enough, nearly as much as the whole army of the United
States. Why not call upon the fourteen regiments of cavalry"
to serve occasionally abroad'? Including seamen, marines:
artillery, cavalry, and infantry, the country would be burdened
with the support of not less than 150,000 men. Had 11°.
Gentlemen opposite supported him in the reduction cd.
the
Malt Tax, and refused to Government the 5,000,0001. arising
from that tax, they would be now under the necessity of
de-
ducing the army, and of introducing economy in every
partment. Why were they to have more men in England n 0
than in the years from 1819 to 1822 inclusive ? Their regu.
policewas equivalent to at least 10,000 military. He vatolgt"
to know what circumstances, either at home or abroad, re"
quired such a force ? Every colony ()tight to maintain its °saa
troops, and would do so if freed from their present thraldom"
In Ireland before the French war there never were more Lbw'
9,000 troops, and if the tithe question were once settled
12,000 or 13,000 men would be amply sufficient there. Au
army was now kept up there principally to maintain s)Tteld
of exaction. It presented the appearance of a gaans°ll;
With respect to the colonies Le believed that with judiciq
management the mortality of the troops there might begreatif
diminished. All the reduction now asked for was merely
a
cessation of recruiting.
Mr. HE RRI E S said that. the Hon. Member for Dunde:
should have favoured the House with the grounds Nthich ft°
induced him, when in office, to form the opinion that a VC/
large reduction of the forces was practicable. The only tea"
son, if such it could be called, put forward by the Hon. Ylect;
her for Dundee was, that some years ago the amount
forces was less than at present. Now, he would go back as farl,t,
1818, and then he found that the number of men was 94,84';
being fourteen thousand more than the vote for the ensein;
year. In 1819 the number was 92,000, and in 1820, 92,22'.
In 1821 it was reduced to 81 000. In the subsequent year'
1823, 1824, and 1825, the amount was considerably reduced'
If these were the years to which the Hon. Member for Dill"
dee referred as a standard for trying what proportion of noire
bers should be voted, he would beg to ask him whether tn.
experiment of that extreme reduction was riot a total failuceac,
It was, notorious that the experiment which was presT.
upon the Government by the Honourable Member for Igl
diesex, caused an increase of expense to the country, inas;
much as it was absolutely necessary, after a trial of tai
years, to re-establish the previous number of men. Here tls,
a fact, which was superior to any argument the Hon. Medo
ia
could produce. It was alleged that the force maintained a
the colonies was excessive, but if he referred to the year 179e'
which was usually the test of Hon. Gentlemen on the otke.
e
side, he found that in all the colonies we then possessed itpst
forces amounted to 15,000, and in the same colonies we hala.
present but 16,687 men. This was a very small excess, lit,
was easily accounted for by various causes. If he appealetat
many Gallant Members opposite he thought they would atiPo
that the duty now performed by the forces in the colonies
extremely severe. The Right Hon. Gentleman having ir;:t
ferred to the amount of the household forces, and stated t'l4„
since 1792 there was only an excess of 1,200 men in the
valry regiments, said it was impossible that Hon. Mencroaa
could vote for the proposed reduction on the trifling object'
which had been urged by the other side of the House. 0
Sir H. PANNELL briefly explained, and said that flit
the opportunities he had had of getting information be rof
himself justified in declaring that a very large reduction
forces was practicable. a of
Mr. H. GRATTAN said' the forces in Ireland ainstea ha
being 31,000 ought to be reduced to 4,000, the amount a t
establishment in 1782. rat
After a few words from Major BE/A:CLERK and Gene
SHALPE the Committee divided, when there appeared--
For the original vote appeared
Against it
Majority
The vote was then agreed to.
On being re-admitted into the gallery we found
The CHAIRMAN proposing the sum of 2,978,000'
gianted to defray the expenses of his Majesty's land forees'
Lord A. CONYNG HAM objected to the vote, and r°° sao
that it be reduced by 6,9001., the extra charge for the e]iPea
of the Life Guards over the Horse Guards. Sir
After a few words from Mr. Berries, Sir H. Hardingeimr,
C. D'Albiac, Lord Darlington, Captain Berkeley, an do,
Hume, the Committee again divided, when there appearc
For the original Vote 229
For the Amendment 57
Majority —l79
The vote was then agreed to. ler°
On the motion that 78,4341. be granted to defrays dis tv
to the principal officers in the several public departrnen'
En
Mr.gland and Ireland. oder
HUME observed that several of the sums granted ou" ,ht •
this head were very objectionable, and that the estimate all
to, be reduced by half. He therefore would move, a' the
amendment, that it be diminished by the sum of 6,4001. i, tae
pay of the Adjutant-General; and 5,0001., the paY °
Quarter Master.
For the amendment 43
For the original motion 196
Majority —ls3
9,4451. was granted to the Royal Military School en
bernian Schools.
On the resolution being put that the sum of 1,275,6751a.,6a5;a5a°
be granted to his Majesty, to defray the charge of
and Kilmainham Hospitals—of the in-pensioners of tilos jolly
tablishments—and of the out-pensioners of Chelsea Octal°
from the Ist April, 1835, to the 31st of March, 1836'
366 days. e
An Hon. MEMBER on the Opposition side of the
(name unknown) objected to the grant. o'6'
Mr. H E'RR IE S said it was to pay the pensions cop.
whom it would be cruel to keep out of their money. d
The objection was withdrawn and the resolution agre„ re&
The CNAIRMArst was then ordered to report the aho"
lotions to the House, and the House resumed. 1
BRITISH MUSEUM, cotitat
let
On the motion of Mr. H AWES, the following. Se. aeage'l
mittee was appointed to inquire into the condition, "
ment, and affairs of the British Museum : port'
Basses, B. Egerton, Lord Fran. Pease, .
Baring, A. Ege toll, Sir P. de M. Peel, S.r
Haring, W. B. Elphiostone, Bice,
Boy:ring, Dr. E•trourt, I. G. B. Boss,C Jo"
• Lent
Carter, J. B. Ew.art, W. l'us el!, ,
Clay, W. Fazakerley, J. N.
(live, Rollert Hamilton, Lord C ScroPe, ord
Colborne, N. W. It. Inglis, Sir It. H. „StaDleY' 0
Compton, HC. Kerry, Earl of J enn ,r,oto
Dalmeny, Lord Morpeth, Viscount
Denison, Evelyt. Parker, J. W.irourtor, .10 ,
adlev to
Mr. BANNERMAN moved that the House do iaeas
but he withdrew his motion, to allow the formal bus
proceed. iancion,ol.l.c.

__ POOR-LAW COMMISSIONERS. ouni"
c lylr. J. FIELDEN moved for "A return of all eon' conl;
ations addressed to the Central Board of Poor he
of the
lcis for
missioners_ from the mauufacturing districts
Kingdom, representing that there are frequent &TO'. ioa 0
coclit f go
the labour of whole families in those districts in
those already to be found there; tocether with a rcturcno:ntici
communications to the same Board
from the south
of England, representing that the demand for t''"ernhbor of
00,
such families is at present comparatively inadequatebe niacin
return of all answers or communications directed to