The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-19 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM,

Mr. ROEBUCK moved that the house at its rising do
adjourn till Monday. He said,—l do so for the purpose of
making certain observations, and, as I think it possible
those observations may provoke some remarks, I do so, re-
serving to myself the right of reply. I suppose I may as-
sume that the great majority of this house is very anxious
the question of Parliamentary Reform should be settled.
That, I think, is not a very wild proposition, or one unsup-
ported by facts. But it appears to me that the course the
house is now invited to pursue will, if adopted, lead to the
exactly opposite result. Now, with the permission of the
house, I will address myself to the noble lord the member
for the city of London ; he has put upon the books of the
house a resolution which, if carried, will, though not for-
mally, yet in reality, negative the bill introduced by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think one consequence of
this will be that you may not have a chance of passing any-
thing like a Reform Bill this year, because we are told to
expect that the right hon. gentlemen on the Ministerial
Bench will thereupon dissolve this house. (Some cries of
" No.") Hon. 'gentlemen say "No, no ; " but they are
sure in their hearts that what they so deny will be done,
and if it is done it is quite clear that the question of a Re-
form of Parliament will be deferred till the meeting of the
new house, when we may have a second edition of the pre-
sent bill..

Mr. E. P. BOUVERIE rose to order. He wished to
know whether it was competent to the hon. and learned
gentleman, on a motion of adjournment, to discuss a ques-
tion that stood for debate on a future day.

The SPEAKER said it would be out of order then to
discuss a subject fixed for a future day, but he understood
that the hon. and learned member proposed to address a
question to the noble lord the member for London, on a
notice the noble lord had placed on the paper.
Mr. ROEBUCK—I hope the house will grant me its in-
dulgence. I am not often in the habit of troubling it at any
length, and what I have to say will soon be brought to a
close. When I was so kindlyinterrupted—(laughter)—l was
about to observe that by the course the noble lord would
persuade the house to pursue the question of Reform is
very likely to be deferred indefinitely. I would therefore
ask the noble lord to adopt a precedent of his own. During
the last session of Parliament the right hon. gentlemen
opposite brought in a bill to 'reorganise the Government of
India. That bill did not meet any favourable reception in
this house. The noble lord, then, with that chivalry" that
belongs to him, stepped in to aid the right hon. gentlemen
opposite, and proposed that the house should procerd by
way of resolution, that the bill brought in by the Govern-
ment should be dropped, and that the house should come
to a resolution, on which a new bill should be introduced.
The noble lord, having regard to the interests of India—
and thereby for the interests of England also—proposed that
course. I now ask the noble lord to consider that the
interests of England are bound up with a new Reform
Bill; I ask him whether he cannot borrow an example
from his own principle, and enlarge the amendments he has
proposed into a series of resolutions which may be the
foundation of a new and better bill. I put this ques-
tion to the noble lord, and I am sure he will be kind enough
to give me an answer. (Lord John Russell shook his head.)
I now ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, if the
course I have suggested is pursued, her Majesty's Govern-
will be prepared to forego the present bill—(laughter)—and
bring in another framed in accordance with the resolutions
adopted by the house. Having put these two questions,
one to the noble lord, the other to the right hon. gentleman
opposite, I would address myself to the hon. gentlemen
behind me—(hear, hear, and laughter)—particularly the
hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright)—who, I see,
does not approve my suggestion. But I ask those hon.
gentlemen to consider what would be the result if the pro-
position of the noble lord is carried. That proposition can
only be carried by an alliance between the noble lord and the
right hon. gentlemen who no iv sit on the Opposition benches.
Last
year the house dismissed those right hon. gentlemen ;
and we are now called upon, by a sidewind, to do some .
thing that will re-establish them in office. (Hear, hear.)
Now I, for one, am not prepared for that. (Cheers.) I will
go furtheethan that ; I do most earnestly request those hon
gentlemen who took part in the
proceedings
of th last year '
consider well what they are
now;
for it is quite clear
that the proposition of the noble lord has be en put on the
paper with a full understanding with certain parties on the
Opposition benches. We know well what will happen, and
I ask hon. gentlemen and I ask the country if they are
pre-
pared at this time, with the terrible state of affairsexistin
abroad, if they are ready to place the destinies of the coun-
t ry again in the hands from which they took them last year.
Any dislocation of the Government of England at tbia mo-
ment may lead to terrible calamities abroad. A dissolution
of the House of Commons may lead to instantaneous war!
(Hear, hear.) Let me explain how. Europe does not under-
stand England. It will believe from a dissolutionofthishouse
that all parties are dislocated ; that we are all at sixes and
sevens ; that there is no strength in English public opinion.
It is English opinion that now keeps the world, at peace.
(Cheers.) But let the world believe that English opinion
is as nothing, and there will be confusion, riot, and blood-
shed throughout the whole of Europe to-morrow. (Hear,
hear.) With these considerations strongly oppressing me,
rask the noble lord • not to pursue the course he has pro-
posed. On his shoulders rest the great destinies of this
country now, and by the course he is adopting he may
bring upon us incalculable calamities. (Hear, hear.)
Therefore I say, think carefully what you are about ; let
no considerations of party, no considerations of self, no
Considerations of paltry ambition interfere and lead you to

pursue a course that may be to the detriment of the coun-
try. I know well that the statements I have made will be
disagreeable to certain gentlemen on that bench. By
adopting the course I have suggested they may avert great
calamities from England, though it may bring on their
shoulders the great calamity of keeping them still in Op-
position. (Hear, hear.) But that is an object I at once
declare I have very much at heart. (Hear, hear.)
lam unwilling to detain the house longer. I only ask the
noble lord to adopt the principle he acted on last year,
and move certain resolutions on which a Reform Bill may
be framed, so that the bill of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer may be entirely dropped.
Mr. COX rose (amid considerable laughter) to express
his obligations to the hon. and learned member for asking
the questions he had done; he had himself intended to ask
a similar question of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He
was glad the hon. and learned gentleman had put one also
to the noble lord. He was not all satisfied with the posi-
tion in which the question of Reform stood at the present
moment. The hon. gentlemen sitting below the gangway
—the RadiCal party—were placed in a difficult position by
the noble lord's amendment. It did not go far enough for
them. (Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER stated that the hon. gentleman could
not properly discuss a measure which was not before the
house.

Mr. COX was sorry he was out of order. He would
endeavour to steer clear of that difficulty. He would
suppose that an amendment was moved to the second
reading of the bill, which, if carried, would have the
effect—as they were told it was intended that it should have
the effect—of changing the sides of that house. (Laughter.)
In that case he wished to know what the noble lord the
member for London would do on the subject of the ballot.
It would be impossible for those who sat below the gangway
to assist the noble lord in regaining the Treasury bench,
unless they received some assurance that the ballot would
be taken into consideration in connexion with any measure
of reform that was introduced. It was high time for the
Radical party to tell the Whig leaders that they must not
expect to make tools of them for the purpose of obtaining
place, and then when they had gained their object to
use hon. gentlemen opposite in order to defeat the
rinciples of those who had brought them into power.
Here the hon. gentleman, waxing very animated, acci-
entally struck the hon. member who sat on his right a
blow on the nose, an incident which convulsed the house
with laughter, and prevented him for several moments from
continuing his remarks.] He could warn the noble lord
that that was not a position in which the great Liberal party
of this country would consent to be placed. The noble lord
must not attempt to lead the Liberal party unless he made
up his mind to give them the ballot. The hon. member for
Birmingham, in a speech he delivered a few years ago, said
that if 50 sincere and honest men in that house united to
secure the ballot they had the means in their power for
obtaining it. The noble lord ought to know that if there
were not now 50 there were at least very nearly that num-
ber of hon. members in that house who were resolved on
following the course thus shadowed out by the hon member
for Birmingham. He would not further detain the house,
but would simply conclude by asking the Chancellor of the
Exchequer whether, as all parties expressed a desire that a
Reform Bill should pass, it would not be better to proceed
by way of resolution, in order to frame a bill to carry such
desire into effect ?

THE CONCENTRATION OF THE LAW COURTS

Mr. HOPE asked the First Commissioner of Works
whether her Majesty's Government purposed to take any
steps for the concentration of the courts of law and equity,
in pursuance of the recommendations both of the Incorpo-
rated Law Society and of the Society for the Amendment of
the Law ? Ho did not ask that question, he said, with any
artistic view, but simply for the purpose of promoting the
convenience of the legal profession. Great inconvenience
existed from the present dispersed state of the courts of law
and equity. Some were in Lincoln's-inn, some in West-
minster, and some at Guildhall ; and judges and barristers,
solicitors and clerks, were continually scouring about the
town in cabs and broughams. With a view to remedy that
evil a scheme had been before the public for some time for
concentrating the law courts on a piece of ground of about
seven acres in extent, situated near all the Inns of Court,
and affording full accommodation for the administration of
justice, both in law and equity. Petitions in favour of that
scheme had been presented from the Incorporated Law So-
ciety, representing the solicitors and proctors, and from the
Law Amendment Society, representing, under the presi-
dency of Lord Brougham, all the most eminent members of
the bar. It appeared likewise that a certain fund, called
the Suitors' Fund, might be made available for defraying
the cost of such an undertaking, at least so far as the ac-
commodation of the courts of equity was concerned. Yet
it was now proposed to rebuild the courts of equity within
the precincts of Lincoln's-inn—a plan which, if carried out,
would render impossible that concentration of the courts of
law and equity from which such great advantages might
fairly be expected. He trusted that the Government would
not sanction any scheme which would have the effect of
maintaining the courts in their present dispersed state, and
that, at all events, no such step would be taken without
the fullest inquiry and consideration.
Lord J. MANNERS admitted that great convenience
would result from the concentration of the law courts, but
there was considerable difference of opinion among the most
competent persons—first, as to whether the fund which the
hon. member had referred to was sufficient for the purpose;
and secondly, whether, such as it was, it could be applied
to the reconstruction of the courts of law and equity.
Under these circumstances the Government were not pre-
pared to take any steps. The subject was one which re-
quired investigation, and the onlyquestion was whether the
inquiry should be made by a select committee or a Royal
commission. At present he was unable to say more, but he
would be glad on a future occasion to answer any question
which the hon. member might put to him.