The Sun.
London, England, 1832-04-14 00:00:00

REFORM BILL.

lhe Order of the Day having been moved for the dis-
cassion to be renewed on the second residing of the Re-
form Bill,

Lord WYNFORD rose to address the House, and on
the ntoticn of Lord Kenyon he was almost immediately
allowed to address their Lordships sitting. The
Noble and Learned Lord began by stating that
he meant to take a nearer view of the principles
of this Bill than either the Noble Baron near him (Lord
Wharncliffe) or the Noble Earl (Earl Harrowby)
had done; and be hoped, after disssecting it, as
ne meant to do, though that would occupy a consi-
derable time, yet that their Lordships wool I not consider
he had unnecessarily occupied their attention. He thougl:t
he should be able to demonstrate to their Lordships
that this was the very worst of three bad Bills which
had been presented to Parliament o❑ the subject of
Reform. In the outset it was absolutely neces-
sary that be should take notice of something which
had fallen from some Noble Lords on the other side
of the House in the course of this debate, and particularly
as one of those Noble Lords had made a charge against
himself, (Lord Wynford) which he boldly and
most distinctly declared to he totally unfounded.
It had been charged to him that he had thrown out impu-
tations against the conduct of Ministers. He, how-
ever, strongly denied that he had ever dealt in
imputations. He had adverted to a petition containing
certain charges; but he bad no means of knowing whe-
ther they were true or false, except as to one point, that
although the Bill professed to destroy rotten boroughs, it
wholly passed over many of those rotten boroughs which
were in the hands of the Whigs. And what was more,
it seemed to have a fructifying quality, which had been
.?escribed in another place, and under which new nomina-
tion boroughs were to groat up and flourish. He regretted
exceedingly to bear, in the course of the present de-
bate that three. Noble Lords, for whom he entertained
high respect, had deserted the side which they took on a
former occasion, and thereby placed themselves in a
!situation which be would not attempt to describe.
Those Noble Lords, while they admitted that their opi-
nions of the Bill remained unchanged, deemed it necessary
to pursue a different course from that which they asloptod
on a former occasion. One Noble Lord said the present Bill
was as bad as the last, andjthereore, what reason he bad for
voting for the second reading, he (Lord Wynford) was wholly
at a loss to divine. Another Noble Lord said that the present
Bill was not quite so bad as the last, that the last Bill was
rounded on population, and the present on property. He had
looked very attentively through all the clauses of the Bill,
and was decidedly of opinion, that co far from its being
founded on property, it actually took property away and gave
none in return. He was convinced the present Bill
was the worst that had been presented to the
House. But he objected mcre particularly to one
elause, which was worse in the present Bill than
.n either of the former ones. He alluded to the 101. clause,
whichwas the most important of the whole,and g we its whole
value to the Bill. The Noble Lord to whom he had al-
luded, objected to the clause OR a former occasion ; but
stated his belief that the present chute was the better
of the two. It appeared to him (Lord Wynford) that
lsa the former Bill the qualiscation was the being
rated at tea pounds a year ; but that according
to the present Bill, a voter need not be rated aat single
shilling.—(" Hear," and " No, no.") He believed that
that was the meaning of the clause.

Lord GREY assured the Noble Lord that he was incor-
rect. By the present Bill a person might have the ten
pound franchise four different ways, eithwr by being rated,
by paying tales, by ten pound rent, or by occupying a
house of that value.

Lord WYNFORD only wished that the issue of this
question rested on the correctness of this assertion. He
declared, the present Bill not only differed from former
Reform Bills, but from a'l Bills founded on the statute-
book between the reigns of Henry VI. and George 111.,
and which made the value of property the areke
fixation for-voting.—(Hear, hear.) In this Bill,lreites
ant the value of the property, but its relative
value to the occupier.—(Hear, hear.) So that any
:n an who carried on any description of business might
tee allowed to swear to the requisite value. If the Noble Earl
-pposite (Grey) could show he was wrong in any of his
facts or conclusions, he was ready to yield,
but having made up his mind, after due consideration, he
would not alter it without sufficient proof that he was wrong.
tie now came to another topic. Noble Lords admitted
that there were defects in the measure, and such defects
as would render it impossible to pass in that state into
a law with security to property, but they thought it could
well enough be amended in Committee. Now he wished
apon this point particularly to undeceive Noble Londe. He
was sere that, after its being allowed to go into Gominie.
tee, Noble Lords never would have an opportunity of giving
art efficient and decisive opposition to any of the prin.
eiWee of the Bill. He knew very well that by some pro-
bability it might be by come particular clause defeated in
Committee, but he knew also, that was this donein
tee, might be undone in the report. Suppose, for instance,
that the 101. cause by -he assistance of an Earl or Baron,
and some others rn the Rev. Bench on the other side of ti e
Houste,was defeated in Committee,would there be any diffi-
culty by a creation of Peers before the Report was brought
up, to undo in that report what had thus been done in com-
mittee ? He wished he cou!d be heard by Noble Lords upon
this point because they must be convinced that the mis-
chief they would do to night by voting for the
second reading, could be by no possibility subsequently
i.e undone. It might be said, according to what hid
taller' from a Right Rev. Prelate, that the King would not
he prevailed on to create Peers to carry this measure—
but there was a difference of opinion on that sub-
ject. He agreed with a Right Rev. friend of his
who expressed his fear that the King, in the circumstances
in which he was placed might be induced, forgetful of
that solemn compact which he made in the presence of
their Lordships, in the presence of the British public, and
in the temple of God, to exercise his prerogative
:ir the purpose of depriving the House of Lords of their
due legislative privileges. the King of England, it seemed,
was placed in new and peculiar circumstances. Times were
when Kings and Queens of England might have their own
officers about them, let the Parliamentary conduct of those
officers bewhat it might. They were considered as exempted
from the rule on which persons were deprived of office
in consequence of their Parliamentary conduct.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) He would ask was there a more effec-
tual mode of corrupting the House of Peers thin
for Ministers not only to dismiss the servants
about the person of his Majesty, but even to dismiss
the Chamberlain of the Queen? The argument he
.lrew from this was, that their Lordships might
expect that a King in that situation, having no private
friend whom he might consult, no adviser, whose opinion
he might ask, and particularly with a Cabinet when armed
with the authority of a Right Rev. Prelate, who told
them that there would be no violativa of prerogative
in a new creation of Peers for the purpose of this Bill ;
he said that a King in these circumstances might well be
eecused for yielding to do that, which under different cir-
eumstances he would not. He said this th'i more
readily, because when a Noble Friend of his put it the
ether night, whether Peera were or were not to be made
no answer had been given ; and particularly because in-
other place one of his Majesty's Cabinet had argued, at great
length, and as he always did, with ability, in favour of
a present creation of Peers. The argument he then made
ate of showed that a measure was in contemplation to
accomplished the unconstitutional act for dividing and
destroying the independence of one of the branches
of the Legislation, whose independence was essential
to his character, and to enable him to discharge
los duty to the. country. Let not Noble Lords suppose
at they could alter this Bill in Committee. If they
were more successful than the most sanguine conceived,
they had no security but that the alterations which might
be made in Committee would sot again be altered in the
report. Many had entertained the opinion that it was fit to
go into Committee; and then to amend it; but if Noble
feeds did not prevent the Bill from going into Committee
at all, they would do a mischief which it would
tie afterwards impossible to remedy.—(Hear, hear.)—
He was extremely sorry to observe the opinions that bad
been expressed by three of the Right Reverend Bench.—
Now with respect to one of them, he thought that the
case was quite hopeless ; but be was in hopes the other
two might be brought back, and that they might expect
his vote in committee and in the third reading. The
first Right Reverend Prelate had expressed himself
to the strongest terms against this measure, but
lie had state'', however, that as he expected no other
plan of Reform would he proposed, and as it was
evident to him that oreele Referral:wee necessary, he

thought it incumbent upon him to make ut
his mind. But be was told that the Noble
Duke below (Buckingham), had given notice of hi'
intention to bring forward a measure of Reform ;
he said that that promise bud come too late,
for he had made up his mind. Why the Noble
,'Prelate had two days to consider of it, and still
toad come down before their Lordships and stated
that he had made up his mind. He (Lord Wynford) wa,
much surprised at such a statement from a Right Reverend
Prelate who had taken the distinguished degrees, that he
had done at Cambridge.—(Hear.) He was sure that
if that Right Reverend Prelate—in his logical ex-
iminations in that University, had given such
reasons as he had done before their Lordships he would
have been placed at the bottom of his class. If
the statement of the Right Reverend Prelate were
to he taken as fact, what was the inference to
be drawn ? Why, that they came down there
with their minds made up, and that no arguments,
however plausible, would alter them. He must say,
notwithstanding the respect he had for the Right Rev.
Prelate, that he thought his conduct most extraordinary,
and he was in hopes that he would reconsider the
subject, and that as he knew a Bill would be brought for-
ward, to which he did not object, that he would consider
that as a sufficient reason why he should vote against
the second reading of the present Bill. Another
Noble Prelate had said, that if he considered there
was dangerous to the Church of Ireland, he would not
vote for the second reading of the Bill. He (Lord
Wynford) was astonished that the Right Rev. Prelate
should think there would be no danger to that
church, and he must be allowed to say that he
thought he knew very little of the history of
it if he considered there was not. He thought it did not
require the research of the Right Reverend Prelate, or of
any other man, to discover, if the present Bill passed,
the Church of Ireland would be wholly destroyed. The Right
Rev. Prelate who followed him, thought that this Bill might make
some attacks on the externals of the Church. He (Lord W. )
did not understand what the Right Rev. Prelate meant
by the word external. The building, it was true, might
stand, but he was perfectly persuaded the property be-
longing to the Church, if that was considered
the external, would be destroyed altogether. The Church
itself could not be touched, because it had been
founded by Him who bad declared that the gates
of hell should not prevail against it, but its
property would be irrecoverably lost. Another
thing which had fallen from that Right Rev. Prelate
had exceedingly surprised him t be bad stated that he
thought the present Bill so good that it would require
very little alteration. If such were the opinions of
that Right Rev. Prelate why did he not vote
against the Bill which was introduced last year.
But if he (Lord Wynford) felt surprised as this,
his astonishment was exceeded by the statement that
these who were not of the same opinion as him-
self were in his mind influenced by factious
motives. Such an observation'was unworthy of an English
Bishop or an English gentleman. A Noble Marquess, speak-
ing of the Right Rev. Prelate who made so excellent a
speech, had called him by an epithet he could not understand.
After that he had made some observations that had fallen
from him with respect to France. When he stated
that the French Revolution had been accomplished
without violence, the Noble Marquess in reply to him
had stated, that it had been accomplished by no-
thing but violence, that it had arisen in consequence of
what had taken place in Parliament, end that such a
thing could never occur in this country. He begged
to state to their Lordships, that what the English
Parliament were now doing would lead to the same reslut.
The Tiers Etat exited in France, he believed, in 1769, and
lie would take on himself to say, that they had acted
in such a manner as would he closely followed by a Reformed
Parliament. In fact, the Tiers Etat in France was
equivalent to a Reformed Parliament in England, and was
there any of their Lordships who believed, or could
say that the Tiers Etat had not been the cause of
the revolution in France.—(Hear, heir.) And be would
again repeat that by the passing of this Bill, the
same scenes would be produced in England. Those times
bore a resemblance to the present. In France they lavished
praise on the King in as great a degree as was now done by
the Radicals and Reformers of England, and what was the
result ? The Revolution followed, with all its attendant
horrors, its murders, and its before unheard of crimes.
The Noble Marquess (Lansdowne) had alluded to the Con-
stitution of America, and said that we had no such system
of representation ; but he would contend that we had
under this Bill. It had also been stated as an argu-
ment against the present system of cur representation,
that these nomination boroughs were useless,—were, in
f .ct, more than useless. But it had been well stated
that the wings of this country were larger than its
body, and how those were to be represented under this
new Constitution, he, for one, could not find out. But
that, he considered, was the use of them, as we at pre-
sent stood. The Noble Marquess had said, that by the
common law of the country the right of voting
was in the householder, where that law was not contra-
vened by statute. But he defied the Noble Marquess to
produce any hook in whieh that doctrine was to be found. He
had searched many, and all that he found in them was,
that the right of voting was in the freeholders. This, he
contended, did away with what bad la•en stated, that this
Bill was only bringing back the Constitution to its former
Mate. The Noble and Learned Lord begged to quote Mad-
dox as an authority against the right of voting being
in householders; and in that work there were twenty authori-
ties referred to. If this were so, then this Bill gave
a right to householders never before recognised by
the common law of the land. He thought it absurd to
talk of there being any common law right in the subject
in consequence of being a householder. In every town the
right of voting was different. In some where they were
freeholders and householders, the right was in respect of their
freehold ; where they were landholders and householders,
ti.e right was in respect of their land ; where they were
tradesmen and freemen, the right was given in respect of
their freedom' It was, therefore, perfectly absurd to
talk of householders being the persons who had a right
to rote. Sovereigns had, undoubtedly, from time to
time conferred the right of voting in certain persons in
certain places, wherever they had thought it right,
until at last they had got together a constituency which
preserved the liberties of the country, and must continue
until altered by some power heretofore unknown. To
avert such an inroad on the Constitution of the country, it
was absolutely incumbent on their Lordships to exert
themselves. The Noble Marquess opposite had
said in the course of his address to that House,
that a system of Reform must consist of disfranchisement
and enfranchisement. He (Lord Wynford) did not
admit that position. There might be many
systems of Reform introduced without either em-
bodying disfranchisement or enfranchisement, and their
Lordships had no right to disfranchise until they knew the
persons whom they were going to disfranchise had abused
the trust reposed in them, for until they had
abused that trust, their right was just as good as
any man's right to any other property throughout the
country. He would be able to chew that if this Bill
passed into a law the whole Legislative power
of the country would be put into the hands not of
landholders, not of master manufacture, but of the journey-
men. He would show that neither this Bill nor any thing
like it ought to be passed into a law. He had not the
least hesitation in consenting to a moJerete alteration in the
constituency of the country. He thought that changes of
.circumstances had rendered it extremely necessary that
:such a Bill (that is to say, a moderate Reform Bill)
should be laid on their Lordships' table; but if this
Bill passed into a law—the Bill now before
their Lordships, it would be impossible to prevent
there being an end to the Constitution. In looking to the
preamble of the Bill, it was evident that there were
various abuses not touched upon. Bribery and corruption
were not once mentioned in it. On the contrary,brihery and
corruption would be encouraged by it ; therefore, if it
,passed into a law ; at least be hoped the title
would be so altered as not to leave it a Bill for
the encouragement of those practices. The Bill pro-
fessed to correct abuses. In the first place there was
nothing in it, as he bad said, to prevent bribery. It
deprived many inconsiderable places of the right to
return Members to Parliament.—(Hear. ) He did not
know what power their Lordships had to do this.
The right of voting was a right anciently and com-
pletely vested in those who exercised it ; and if
they did anything to forfeit that right, why did their
Lordships not act as they had hereto ore done by
taking the right frmn them and bestowing it upon others.
What right, then, had their Lordships, he inquired,
to take from inconsiderable places the right of re-
turning Members, particularly when their Lord-
ships took upon themselves to dt. ci 'le what were
or what were not inconsiderable places in the manner
they had done? They had called places inconsiderable places
where there were 300 voters living. Many places
in achedule A contained no leas than three hundred
voters. Many other places contained one hundred
voters, and yet their Lordships did not propose to unite
those places so as to continue among then,
the right of voting, but entirely to take
their vet s from them. In this way several places
in. schedule A were to he disfranchised, which he hoped he
never should see effected. He knew, indeed, that the
legislature had power to do arty thing bat to make
a man, as it had been :aid ; but whatever prose, O

might have, its power would never lead their Lordships to
theve
measurepassing
of
b a more aoaal r e
w or
beafe
re morethe
ot destruc-
tive
He objected to the disfranchisement of places which had
than the
always exercised their franehisa purely. And he was con-
fident that by extending the franchise to large and popu
lous towns, they would also extend the practice of
bribery and corruptie in
crease
the The Bill then professed to
the number of knights of the shire. Now, he
asked them what weight would the knights of the shire
have in the scale against the representatives for cities and
boroughs. There were to be 157 knights of the shire, and about
330 representatives of towns. Supposing the latter to represent
fairly the interests of the towns, what chance had the landed
interest—the most important in this country, and which
was suffering so deeply at this moment ? What chance, sup.
posing those 157 county Members all to represent the
county interests,—what chance had they against the
300 and odd who would represent the towns? If any
man looked at the alteration of the right of voting, and at
the divisions of the counties, he must be struck with
the suspicion that the landed interest would be left un-
represented. For even in the counties there was as great
constituency in favor of the other interests as the landed in-
terest. They were to have a new class of voters in the copy_
holders andleaseholders, and he begged their Lordships to
consider how many were to he found in towns, and then
to ask themselves what security was offered them by this
Bill in favour of the landed interest. He would affirm that
one half of the county constituency would lie in the towna
He would take, for instance, the county of Warwick,in
which Birmingham and Warwick were thrown into one di-
vision of the county, leaving the aericultural interest in
the other division. Ile asked, what would the agri-
cultural interest say to the northern division of tha
country ? They would be thrown entirely out of the
scale. Let the country he divided as it would, so grant
an influence had the large towns, that the landed In-
terest would be wholly neglected.—(Hear.) If the
towns were shut out altogether from the counties, and
if one were not to interfere with another, then
he admitted that his argument would be of no avail.
He would ask their Lordships to look at Kent,
and say what became of the rural freeholders of
the western division of that county, in which were
Woe Itvich, Greenwich, and Maidstone. The freeholders
in those towns would greatly outnumber the rural free-
holders, and at least one half the country, which formerly
and at this time represented the landed interest, would lose
sight of that interest under the Reform Bill. He would
next advert to the extension of the elective franchise,which,
so far from being an extension of the franchise, would, in
his opinion, take it away from people of property,
and give it to those who had none. Undoubtedly, if
there bad been a distinction made between the house-
holders of one town and those of another, then his obser-
vations would not apply. But if they looked
at Liverpool, it had been proved by a Bill
brought into Parliament, that many of the
101. householders were mere paupers. This was the case in
many of the larger towns. And he was confident that
the clause would only have the effect of increasing
the system of bribery. Then it was said the Bill was
intended to diminish the expense of elections. How was
that to be effected ? Not by :diminishing bribery, for
there was no provision in the Bill against it; but
it was asserted that by having the elections at various places
it would diminish the expense. It was known the greatest
expense was incurred by erecting hustings and employing
poll-clerks and agents. By this Bill, therefore, that expense
would be greatly increased, for their must be hustings, poll-
clerks and agents at each place of election. The Noble and
Learned Lord next adverted to the increase in the repre-
sentation of Scotland and Ir. land, which was robbing Eng-
land to enrich Scotland and Ireland. The Union with Scot-
land had made that country happy and flourishing, and
she was grateful for our protection, but she did not want
the Referin now tendered her. The best informed per-
sons in that country were against any alteration in
the present system of representation. He trusted
in Gad that no occasion would be given by such
a measure, and such discussions for breaking up
that union, which had been productive of so much
mutual happiness and prosperity, and had given unitedly
to the whole body that degree of strength, that he was afraid
if such a Bill as the present passed into a law
would soon be destroyed. He was quite stare that no
Scotchman or Irishman was desirous of having those al-
terations which this Bill proposed, because they
were wise enough to know that when innovation
began it was difficult to put a stop to it.
For if alterations were made to-day which seemed to
be in their favour, it would establish a prece-
cedent which would he productive of mischief. it was in-
finitely better that they should proceed in the same man-
ner that they had heretofore, and upon those principles
which had been productive of such glorious result in happi-
ness to the people, respect and dignity to the throne,
security to property, and even of incalculable advantages,
which had extended beyond Britain itself. There was an al-
teration in the right of voting introduced by the present Bill
which, as it was not to he found in any other statute, nor
based on the market value of the tenement, but merely
on the supposed value which the tenant might affix
was altogether anomalous, and would be productive of
extensive mischief. The landed interest would be substantially
destroyed, and stripped at least of half the county members,
who under the old system represented it. Much had been said
of the union between the agricultural and other in-
terests of the country; and sure he was, that on the
prosperity of the landed interests depended that
of the other interests—and sure be was that though
they had to deal with persons who looked only to a
measure as it immediately affected theinselvee. The
landed interest would be reduced to a state of the greatest
possible daeger if this Bill passed into a law, a
Right Rev. Prelate had complained of the appeals which
had been made to the Right Reverend Bench on the other
side of the House. He had never appealed to them in a
disrespectful or threatening manner ; but feeling very
deeply the importance of the interests of the Church,
he could not but observe, that its temporalities in a great
measure depended upon the landed interest. There
was another circumstance to which he felt his
duty to allude. One of his objections to this
Bill was, that it was an insulated measure, which
affected in its consequences the whole kingdom—
Great Britain, Scotland, and Ireland. The three hills
ought to have been united, fur it was impossible
for any man whatever to judge of the effects of the
whole, without considering the particular effect of each.
Considering that this particular Bill might be proper for
England if it had been separate from Scotland and Ireland,
it would become a different question how it would act
with regard to Scotland, aid Ireland formed a part of the
same Government. It might I.e said that the Church of
England was strongly guarded, but the Church of Ire-
land could not fall without the Church of England.
He need not dwell on the consequences which would
result from a great number of Roman Catholic Members
under the Irish Bill getting into the House of Commons.
The Church establishiornt in Ireland would ultimately be
entirely destroyed, and he called upon the Right Reve-
rend Bench opposite, duly to consider what effect
this would have upon Church property in England.
He called on their Lordships to defeat this Bill on be-
half of those who had a great interest in it, but who
were necessarily absent. He called on them to do
so on behalf of those towns that were to lose the fran-
chise, and out of whose power it was to defend them-
'dye. On behalf of the East India interest, those
interests were very great ; and if this Bill passed, he,
for one, would be glad that he was not responsible in any
degree for the consequences that might follow. He called on
their Lordships, for God's sake, topause, before they passed a
Bill for Reform in Parliament, which he expected would
have, and he believed must have, the effect of
losing us those great colonise. He called on
them to reject the Bill on account of the West
India interest. It was well known to their Lord-
; ships that the Englishmen who had left their hones for
the purpose of settling in those islands, were not well
pleased at the conduct of those who were now at t, e
head of affairs, and he begged that the effect of this
Reformed Parliament might be taken into serious consider-
ation by their Lordships, before they gave their sanction to
this Bill. It would not fail to lead to a considera-
tion of the question of Slavery ; and recent events had shown
that the state of mind in those islands would not allow
that question to be tampered with. Their Lordships had
been told that this all must pass, or revolution must
follow. He was sorry those who had used such language
had not been brought to the bar of the House, or rather
that another course had not been taken, and those utter-
ing such libels on the country had not been putiishe al
by the laws. Their Lordships were not to be fa ielitened
into giving their assent to this Bill, because they
were told that thousands of the people were reads,
to march to London on the rejection of the Bill.
He knew the character of their Lordships too well
to give credence to the charge brought against them,
that they would vote against their own opinion, throM.l,
the fear of being thought afraid. He was one that had
always thought some alterations ought to be made in the sta e
of our representation. And he had hoped such alterations
would have been introduced in another place, so ma.,
to ero.!ure peace in the country, satisfy the people and yet be
safe' to: the Constitution. e still retained those opinions,
and though the char cter of a bit. hy-bit Reformer had
been much deprecated, still he thought that that plan wa,
the only safe way of legislating on this subject. Having
beers disappointed iu his hops of such 4 plan b,inz

introduced in the House of Commons, he had been happ!
.0 hear the notice given by the Noble Duke on a former
eight; for, from what he could collect from the explanation
.riven by the Noble Duke ; the plan would be such
:IS would enable him to give the Bill his support.
He fully believed that the country would give its support
to the Bill of his Noble Friend, for it would see—the
treat interests of the country would see—that it went
en a conservative principle, and did not, like the present
one, disfranchise thousands of those who were at present
in possession of it. But would this Bill satisfy the towns?
He was certain it would not; for he held in his hand a
resolution passed at a meeting of what was called the
Council of a Political Union, in which they stated
that they would be satisfied with no plan which
did not give them annual parliaments, vote
by ballot, and no property qualification. They further
stated that no other plan would introduce intelligent
men into the House of Commons, from the productive
classes of society. The ten pound franchise, as it would
operate in many towns, would give the right of voting to
paupers, yet here was a sample of what was to
be expected, even yet it did not please the fob-
tical unionist who so flourished in the large towns.
The case would then be, that their Lordshipe would not
have gentlemen of fortune and education, who would
be able to discharge their duties in Parliament, but they
would have what the unions to which he referred wanted,
persons of the lower orders, who would be totally unfit to
discharge their duties in Parliament. If evidence were
,wanted to prove the impropriety of a Bill like the present,
he would request their Lordships to look at what
an American writer had stated. That writer, speak-
ing of the last Bill—and he (Lord Wynford)
was prepared to prove that the present Bill was by
for the worst, and the moment it passed into a law it would
become an entailed curse upon the country,—that writer had
stated, that enlist all the press in its cause, if you please,
the havoc that it would produce within a short time would
be lamentable in the extreme. The only real Reform that was
wanted in the country was the lightening the oppressions
of the poor, which were inflicted upon them by the pre-
sent Poor Laws of the country. Those were the laws
that most wanted Reform. If the poor wanted
to know what was the effect of Parliamentary Reform—
the effect of visionary alterations—let them look to
the state of France and Belgium.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Could any poor man wish for Reform when it would pro-
duce such effects as had been pointed out in those countries ?
Such results were not the supposition of any theoretical writer,
but in France and Belgium they had been proved by prac-
t'co. He was afraid that he had occupied too much
of their Lordships' time, and he omitted many things
what he ought to have mentioned. He felt most earnestly
on this question, and was every day more and more
convinced that the moment it passed into a law it would
produce the ruin of the best interests of the country,
and the total destruction of every thing that
was valuable to its people. If they thought by
going into Committee, the evils which existed the present
Bill would be remedied, he would cheerfully agree to the
adoption of its course. He hoped in what he had said
he had prevailed on those Members of the Rieht Rev.
Bench, to which he had adds eased himself, to return
to their duties to that church of which in that House
they were the guardians. In conclusion, he implored Noble
Lords, as they valued themselves, their property, and the
happiness and prosperity of their country to reject the Bill.
Lord DURHAM was anxious to rise at this moment
to state his opinions to the House, because be still
laboured under such a painful indisposition that he feared
if lie delayed his purpose to a later period he should
be unable to undergo the fatigue of addressing them, and
therefore he trusted that their Lordships would excuse him
if he trespassed on their attention for a few minutes. He
hail listened with the greatest attention to the able speech
of the Noble and Learned Lord, and if any interruption
bad been given him from that side of the House, be could
assure the Noble Lord that it was not with the intention
to interrupt him in the course of his argument,
but for the purpose of putting him right as to
certain fects.—(Hear, hear.) That Noble Lord's
speech appeared to him to be divided into two parts,
and relating to subjects which he conceived had
very little to do with the present question, and
therefore he (lid not see that he was called upon
to follow him upon these topics; nor was he called
upon to follow the Noble Lord into all those de-
tails into which he had gone, because he conceived
that they were infinitely more fit for the Committee
than for discussion upon the second reading.—(Hear,
hear.) In that belief he was borne out by the Noble
Lord himself, for he stated, that believing the Bill would
not go into Committee, he deemed it right to take the pre-
sent opportunity of iliscussing it. A-, however, he (Lord
Durham) was of opinion that the Bill would go into Com-
mittee, he should not deem it necessary to follow the
Noble and Learned Lord in discussing the details
upon the present occasion, but would merely advert to
them very briefly.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was
however, amply repaid for the patience with which
he had listened to the Noble and Learned Lord,
by finding that he did not adopt that tone
and temper of angry and party feeling which dis-
tinguished a speech that was delivered on the last night of
the debate. He was sorry to say they had a different temper
exhibited upon that occasion from the Right Rev. Bench,
for in a speech delivered by a Right Rev. Prelate, a false
charge was made against Government; besides which, there
were instances of the greatest distortions of historical facts,
and the Right Rev. Prelate had indulged in some of his
beauties of pamphleteering slang.—(Here there were im-
mense cries of " Order, order !" " Retract!" " Take down
the words," &c. &c., which continued so long that the
Noble Lord sat down. In the midst of the confusion—)
The Eat' of WINCHILSEA rose, and, as well as
we could hear, he was understood to say that
personalities of the description which they had just hearth,
ill became the dignity of that House, the more especially
when they were used by Ministers of the Crown to-
wards a Member in the situation of the Right Rev.
Prelate.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Lord HOLLAND said the Noble Earl had risen to speak
to order, and he wished the Noble Earl to state whether
any and what motion be intended to make, for lie
(Lord Holland) was perfectly at is loss to know what
the question before the House was. If the Noble
Earl wished to speak in an orderly manner upon
the asperity of the language which had been used by
the Noble Lord (Durham) Ire knew there was
a rule of the House which he could resort to,
and therefore it was to be hoped the Noble Earl would
confine himself to the question, and not use such language
as he had just addressed to the House.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose and said—l now
move, my Lords, that the words " pamphleteering, slang"
and " false" be taken down.—(Cheers from Opp: sitionn
Earl GREY said lie apprehended that the parti-
cular words complained of, however harsh they migh he
to the Noble Earl's ears, might be used pet fectly honestly
and properly ; they depended in a great measure upon
their application. As to the objection to the ward false,
he knew that in some cases no word could be more
objectionable, but here it was stated that the Right
Reverend Prelate's speech was merely full of false
deductions from historical facts. As to the words
" pamphleteering slang," it might be that a person
spoke in his usually flowery pamphleteering slang, and yet
there might be nothing inconsistent in using those
words.—(ob, oh, from the Opposition.) If the Noble
intisted in having the words token down, it would
be unfair to single out particular epithets without
their application, and therefore the whole sentence ought
to be taken down at the sante time.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord HOLLAND said the usual course was to take the
words down, and then put it to the Noble Lord who
uttered them whether those were the precise words.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM thought the best way
was for the Noble Lord (Durham) to state to the House
whether he used the words offensively or not. At the
same titne he would personally suggest to the Noble Lord
the propriety of reconsidering his expressions.—(Hear.)
Lord DURHAM said he had been interrupted by the
Noble Earl (Winchilsea) in the course of a sentence, but as
it scented to lie the wish of many of their Lordships that
his words should be taken dawn, he begged to state
he had no objection whatever to such a course.
It the House, however, wished to know why he
had used the words, and how he applied thew,
he would state it. Whether the words " pamphleteering
slang" suited the taste of the Noble Eetl opposite, or
whether lie might have used some more elegant language,
he would not now enter upon ; but he felt he was justified
in using the words complained of. The Right Rev. Prelate
had thrown out an insinuation on the last night of the de-
flate against Ministers in such terns respecting the public
Press has rendered it absolute!: necessary for him to
answer it. That insinuation w so couched, that it
would be wrong in him to deny that he
knew that it was not applied to himself. It had been
made publicly, and circulated through various portions of
the public press. When he found such a change
made, as that nobody, particularly the Members of that
House, could doubt that it applied to him,
he took the first opportunity that presented itself,
to declare the! it was false and scandalous.—
( Hear, and cries of " Order.") Having said thus much, lie
would now wait to see if the wends were taken down.
[The Noble Lord then sat down, and there were loud cries
of " the Bishop of Exeter"—" Question"--and " Go on."
The latter predominated, and, after a short pause,
the Noble Lord rose again, and said—] Il it we,

I the intention of the Right Rev. Prelate to
address the House on what had just passed, be could take
that opportunity when he (Lord Durham) had concluded.
hut he would never shrink from stating what was the
fact and what was nut tre fact, regarding the atrocioue
calumnies that had been circulated respecting him. It was
distressing to a mind already gently affected by private griefs
and domestic misfortunes, to be subjected to such calumnies,
(Loud cheers)—and therefore he trusted their Lordships
would excuse the warmth into which he had been betrayed.
Government had been charged as having agitated
the public mind on this subject, and thus occasioning
an extravagant demand for Reform.—(Hear.) Now on
what facts Noble Lords founded this opinion, he was at
a loss to conceive.—(Hear.) If there had been
one subject more than another specially discussed
within the last fifty years, that subject undoubtedly.
was, Reform in Parliament. It had been brought for-
ward by the most eminent men of whom this country could
boast, ever since the presentation of the Yorkshire petition
in 1783. It had been taken up, with more or less
energy according to the circumstances of the times, but
it always bore a high place in the estimation of the
people. It had been brought forward by the
Duke of Richmond, by Mr. Pitt, Mr. Flood,
by his Noble relation at the head of the Govern-
ment, by Lord A. Hamilton, and Lord John Rus-
sell, during a rapid series of years, from 17k2
to the present time. So that the Noble Lords
to say that this feeling was one of later growth, or that
it owed its origin to the French or Belgian revolutions, was
stating what all history and fact notoriously 'contradicted.
That it had assumed a more formidable appearance
within the last five or six years, he was ready
to admit ; but not that it was owing to the
causes to which they had ascribed it.—(Hear.) It was
owing to the refusal of that House to grant repre-
sentation to Leeds, Manchester, and Birmingham,
when an opportunity had presented itself. It was
owing to the exposures that had taken place,
in the cases of Penrhyn and East Retford, laying bare
scenes of the most gross corruption and bribery ; but
owing above all to the middle classes of this country
having identified themselves with the question.—
He wished for a few moments to call attention to
this point, because in its full consideration was in-
aolved one of the great leading principles of this
Bill—be alluded to the emancipation of those classes
for the purpose of showing the anxety of the feel-
ing which exists, and the little prospect there
is for the middle classes being satisfied with any degree of
emancipation short of that proposed by this Bill. Noble
Lords were too well read in history not to be
aware that up to the Revolution of 1688 the struggle al-
ways was to prevent the Crown from assuming despotic
power, and the conflict ever since had been between two
parties aiming at political power, the Crown always being
at their mercy, and the people not interfering,
but, well or ill governed, according with the principles
of the conquering party. For a long time the people had
acquiesced in the supremacy of the higher orders, con-
scious of their own incompetency from the want of
education to enjoy political influence. They felt no
jealousy, and offered no opposition to the monopoly en-
joyed by the higher orders, but affairs had assumed
another aspect. A great change had taken place. The
two streams had been flowing on, or rather while the one
stood still, the other had been progressively increasing.
In truth, the middle classes had so increased of late in skill,
talent, intelligence, and wealth, that they felt they
were competent to the performance of higher
functions.—(Hear, hear.) And these just and national
feelings of ambition were no longer to be enclosed
within the narrow bounds of human seclusion, or they
would lead to the annihilation of those feeble restraints
by which they were confined. That the middle clause,' bad
a right to indulge in these no one could doubt. As to
their wealth, they were no such paupers as had been
represented by the Noble Duke, the Noble proprietor
of St. Mawes. Their wealth had increased so much that
it was more than double or treble that of the higher orders;
and to be convinced of their extent, they had only to look
to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle, Edinburgh,
Glasgow, ice. By whom would Noble Lords find the
in-
stitutes, the literary societies, the charities, in short, all
associations tending to the advancement of literature,
science, and the amelioration of mankind, supported
and maintained, but by the efforts, example, and purse
of these middle classes of society ? The gentry might live
apart indeed ; but when they came together on public occa-
sions to discuss political subjects,the superiority of the gentry
was no longer manifest ; and he would assure the Noble
Duke who moved the amendment to the Bill, that whatever
opinion he might entertain on the superiority and intelligence
of those who had been returned at the last election, if he
attended a meeting and entered into a discussion with
the middle classes of society, he would have no reason any
longer to plume himself on any fancied superiority.
But the question very naturally asked was, whether that
was a right and proper state of things which ex-
cluded a large body of Englishmen, possessed
of skill, talent and wealth, merely because they
did not happen to be included in a particular class invested
with privileges bestowed upon them at different periods of
the history of the constitution ? Now the existence of these
feelings sufficiently accounted for the desire which those
classes had to enjoy the advantages as well as share the bur-
dens of the State ; and that it does exist to a great degree no
man in his senses could deny. Did they who virtually
represent them, as the Noble and Learned Lord who
had just spoken had stated, performed the duties of
their situation? The answer which the people of
England had uniformly given to that question was—No.
If their Lordships compared the state of things now with
the state of things some time ago, they must be
convinced that before the late war the National
debt amounted to sixteen millions--at the end
of the war, in 1814, it amounted to nearly eight
hundred millions. The national expenditure, which pre-
viously was five millions and a half, increased to ninety-four,
The poor-rates increased from one million to seven millions ;
and in one reign—that of George the Third—no less
than twenty-seven millions of money were lavished
away on Foreign subsidiaries, and owing to the luxuries of
indulging in war, the naval and military expenditure of
the country had amounted to no less than a hundred mil-
lions sterling. Acts were pissed in Parliament suppressing
the Habeas Corpus Act—fetttering the Press—(Cheers)—
and many others equally obnoxious. Those Acts were
proposed by the House of Commons, and subsequently
passed by their Lordships ; and, however grateful such
Acts might have been to the Noble Duke opposite, they
had not been so to the people. In the result, the ptople, find.
ing themselves fettered by the conduct of the House of Com-
mons—the House of Commons theoretically representing the
people but substantially doing any thing rather than repre-
senting them, the attention of the people became naturally
directedwrha
twasto tthhee
emetany, e in u
ewn
ehei cehf t thheei
.Hq
uo
iur sye wasil ecyo nfesut int
du teend
part of it nominated by trafficking attorneys ; another part
owing its return to unblushing bribery—another to
the owners of rotten boroughs and so on ; and in
this way one part of the country with no population
all, or next to no population at all, returning no
less than three Members, while a town, consisting
of about two hundred thousand inhabitants, returned
no Member at all ; and that part of the House which
was supposed to he returned ley the public, so fettered,
so hampered, so circumscribed by the expenditure
that had taken place, as to be altogether ineffectual in
doing any good. The Noble Lord now referred
to a statement made by Mr. Burke, respecting
the constitution of the House of Parliament, and be
thought he had stated reasons sufficient to account
for the intense feeling which existed throughout the
country at the present moment on the subject
now before their Lordships. From whatever cause
that excitement or interest had arisen, he was
perfectly confident that it never could be allayed by any
means short of a full and generous compliance with the
wishes of the country. Here he was met by Noble Lords
opposite, who talked of time dangers of concession ; and
also the declaration of the Rev. 'Bishop made the other night
that their Lordships were bound to leave the consequences
to God. He would esk what the result had been
when the consequence had been left, lie would rather
to say to providence than to God ?—(Loud cheers.)
Was the result of history to be for ever sealed to the eyes
of NoWe Lords opposite ? Were its pages to be for
ever perverted by the Reverend Bishops ?—(Chsers.)
Was it not clear that repeated resistance had never pro-
' duced any thing but renewed and double energy on the
part of the people, when their complaints and
requests had been laid before Parliament? Would
assertedion
preve
of
fmye
liy6m4scaLlevi,eirtileoisdnu presume
ittloe,
r.s
haveef te
beenthatould
apnt
prevented
e ntntraeed.l tell
that the French Revolution of 1785 could not have been
t only have preserved
people the King of France might no
ntedthabtybycocntcmescsesiosnion
So, with respect
and
his crown, but his head.—(Cheers.) He
keeping
grd
faiDth. )wibtthoatdi!y:
that
ted
by
yy thethe Noble Baron on time opposite side. If
England, after the repeal of the Stamp .
have been derived from
destroyed all the benefits to
andsome one or
to the North American Revolution, as it 'hAacdt,beh.eand ably
two more act 3, declaratory act,
North America
country.
still have
been in connexion w.
th his vu
There-
fore, when consequences had been left to God, nothing
but bloody struggrees
useless expenditure, and, finally,
unlimited eoriceseions I; ed been the result,-(Cheers.)
this

I With respect to the measure now before tbe Floe .s,
I Noble Lord, calculated the comparative amount or a
hers? On the one side was theCrown,the House of Commas,
.itid the country—on the other, were 200 Peers.—(llear,
hear.) Well then, supposing their Lordships rejected this
Bill again, and the-people acquiesced-in tliat'rejeetiOn,
and that their feeling did not instantaneously break out,
what would be the punishment to their Lordships if they
Iwere forsaken by the people? What would their Lordships
think of themselves, if they were left entirely to themselves
—or if they had, to have their mansions fortified ? (Laugh-
ter.) Noble Lords might laugh, but there was one Noble
Duke opposite at the moment, who had been obliged
for a considerable time past to have, and who had at
this instant his house fortified. What then, he would
repeat his question, would their Lordships think, if they
had to have their dwellings fortified, and their per-
sons protected by troops, which, when the hour of danger
came, would all prove to be perfectly useless.—(Loud
cheering.) He saw in iny Noble Lords whose
return into various parts of the country he
well knew was welcomed by the congratulations
of surrounding neighbourhoods ; but would they con.
tinue to be received with equal complacency if they
continued to destroy the long wished for benefits
desired by those very neighbourhoods? Welcoming and
affection would be turned into disgust, and the re-
tention of certain rotten boroughs would afford but
poor consolation for what they might naturally expect
to lose and to receive. He confessed that he saw nothing
but dangers attending the rejection of this measure—
nothing but what would be calculated to destoy the
harmony and good will which ought to exist between their
Lordships and the people. It was under this conviction that
eloestt ory; sßeforma .Ministers
large.—(Lott)
a
his colleagues and himself agreed upon bringing forward
this Bill. Believing the claims of the people were just,
his l%ajny
gaes._w
o(svuLle,oirt at eil anxiousoenhceeeribnegt.sor
igsrfaaffnc
etto
isuch
measureathe
u
already stated that this was not the time at which
it would be proper to enter into a detailed examina-
tion of the provisions of the proposed Bill.—(Hear
hear, hear.) The alterations that had been introduced
into this Bill, so as to differ it from the last, had been
most satisfactorily and most clearly explained by the Noble
Earl at the head of the present Government.—(Hear.)
The great and leading principles of the Bill were the
disfranchisement of all nomination boroughs--the pu-
rification of the small boroughs—the enfranchisement
of large towns, and an endeavour to prevent the great
expense attending elections. Notwithstanding, he
did not conceive this to he the fittest opportunity
for entering into the details of this Bill. As on a former
night a Noble Earl—an Earl of this House, ' lad
Marquess of Ireland, in allusion to a portion of those
details which he (Lord D.) was more particularly ac-
quainted with, made some remarks affecting his character,
he deemed it necessary to make a few observations on
that point. The Noble Earl to whom be alluded, pro-
fessing to have greet respect for him, had declared
that he (Lord Durham) had been guilty of a gross
fraud, and pledged himself able to prove it, as
regarded the arrangements in the Bill with respect to
Durham and its neighbourhood. How the Noble Marquess
or Earl could entertain any respect for a person who could
have been guilty of any such improper conduct, he really
did not know.—( Hear, and cheers.) Whatever the
Noble Earl's respect for him might be, he could only de-
clare that if he had acne' as it had been imputed to him,
he could no longer entertain any respect for himself.
He (Lord Durham) would pledge himself to prove that
in all the arrangements connected with Durham there was
not in that county one town with privileges conferred
upon it that could not be defended upon the principles
of population, wealth, and intelligence.—(Cheers.) If
their Lordships were to disfranchise any of those
towns, they would be bound on the same principle to
disfranchise a great netny others which were actually
to receive new Mernbere.—( Hear.) He disclaimed from
his heart and soul that he had either procured, or endea-
voured to procure, any interest for himself in the ar-
augments respecting Durham; and if he had in any way
attempted to do so, the constituency would be so
formed as would entirely defeat his object.—(Cheers.)
With regard to what had been stated as to
Tavistock and Christchurch, by referring to the
returns it would appear that both the comparative population
and wealth of the two totally negatived all what had been
said respecting them on the other side of the House. Be-
fore sitting down he wished to notice an observation that
bed been made by the Noble and Learned Lord
respecting the expenses of elections—that Noble Lord
had said that under the new system those those expenses
would be greatly increased. He (Lord D.) had had the mis-
fortune to have encountered a most severe contested
election, and which had cost him, as he believed
he had once stated before, about 80,0001. He also
believed that his Noble Frieed behind him, if he thought
proper, would be able to state that that very election had
cost him a considerable deal more.—(Hear, and laughter.)
The Noble and Learned Lord had said, that the expenses
arose from the agents and poll-clerks. Now he (Lord
Durham) denied that the expenses would be
increased by this measure, or that they were incurred
by the agents and poll-clerks. The heavy expenses
attending elections had, heretofore, been incurred
by the bringing of voters up to the poll and their sub-
sistence.—(Hear.) For three days before the elec-
tion took place, as well as on the day of the
election to which he had just adverted, the expense
of merely providing ; for his voters had been a
thousand pounds A DAY ! He was confident, therefore,
that by doing away with the necessity of having to convey
voters
distances,e-is o use
billsand
which had
obviating
been
necessityhithe rto having
incurred
ur d e
the larger public-pause
great
a great and essential benefits would be accomplished.
There had been many other circumstances entered into
s
by the Noble Lord, which he would not now travel
through, as he hoped and trusted that their Lordships
would allow this Bill to go into Committee, but be would
pledge himself, if there was any thing in the Bill that bore
the appearance of giving an undue influence, there were no
persons on earth more anxious than the Noble Earl at the
head of the Government and the rest of the Ministers to
make every alteration that would tend to such a result.
For all the reasons he had stated, and for the interest and
prosperity of the country, he hoped and trusted that their
Lordships would pass the Bill. He thought that he could not
do better than conclude in the words of an illustrious
statesman, whose principles he venerated, and
whose example be always endeavoured to fol-
low, by saying_" We rest our all on this
Bill; we risk all most dear; all that men either feel
or care fora character for integrity and honour.--
permanent reputation in future times which was most
precious to us; we fix ourselves on a constitutional basis,
and on the rock of England we place the equity and
wisdom of this measure."—(Tremendous cheering.)
The Bishop of EXETER having been attacked
by the Noble Baron who had just eat down, with having
made false assertions against him, begged the indulgence
of their Lordships while he offered a few words
in explanation. All that he had said last night with re-
spect the letter which had appear. d in the Times
newspaper, that it was supposed to have been obtained
by that paper through the medium of some person
who was connected with Government—but he had
not said a single word of the Treasury—(Hear, hear,)
because he meant to exclude the Noble Earl at the head of
that department.—(Hear.) When be put it that way,
he by no means meant to fix it on any individual in
particular, but he had no hesitation in saying, in his own
mind, that the rumours circulated respecting the Noble
Baron, were nut unlikely to be true.—(Hear, hear, bear.)
But in the observations that he had made he had spokeu
generally of its having been given, as he believed, by a per-
son connected with the Government; but he had perticularly
avoided expressing any thing positive at the time. The
only instance he bad referred to as connected with
the Times appeared in that paper about five or six weeks
ago, at which time there was e statement in tbet
paper of a correspondence having taken piece with
NI i ruebcite allusionD
uke a n
dt oh ai sAuipa
jpeossteyd,
a Noble Duke opposite (Buckingliem). He hot el he
would forgive him for alluding to him in the manner he
had done, but in the Times newspaper, about the 23d
Duke's sun and his Majesty'.
Secretary. That correspondence appeared to have been
andof correspondence aanalso
lbasettw etlelbne
tet
hwee"e' between
Noble thata
stated with such particularity that he thought it appeared
likely that the information bad been given to that paper
through the medium of some parties who had access
to the correspondence;
and it appeared to him more likely
to have been obtainted from souse person who had access
to Government Papers, than from the Noble Duke....
(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said that, as he
had been particularly adverted to, he must offer a
few words to their Lordships. In his capacity
of a Peer of the Realm, he had written a letter to his
Sovereign, whi: h was given to his Majesty's secretary—
that being the usual way of communieatiag With the King.
Oi that letter he had given lei copy,he had read
it but to two of his own family, and then only
parts of it—that letter be had been informed by
his Majesty's secretary had been placed by the
command of his Majesty in the ',ands of his
Prime Minister, and parts of that letter
had been put verbatim into the Times newspeper.—(Tre-
mendous cheering.)

Earl GREY was very sorry that so important a debate

al the present, should have been interrupted by
a discilssion of the present nature ; but after what the Noble
Duke had stated, and more particularly in consequence of
the manner it bad been received by the opposite side of the
'louse it was impossible for him to he silent. The fact Is
stated by the Noble Duke was perfectly true—the Noble
bake h id addressed a letter to the King for this advice upon
Certain political questions and topics. That the Noble
bake had stated the proper and constitutional course
to pursue,—whether it was or not, he (Earl
grey) would not now stop to inquire ; he would
leave that to the Noble Duke himself ; but he
aunt say that conduct pursued by his Majesty on
that occasion was that which would have been adopted
by the constitutional sovereign of a country like England.
,—(Load and long continued cheers.) His Majesty had
immediately transmitted that letter to his Prime
Ilinister.—(Cheers.) Now the Noble Duke had
said that he had given no copy of it. He (Earl Grey)
could say upon the honour of a Peer, that he had given
tone. He certainly did communicate it to his colleagues :
it was his duty to do so—(Hear, hear)—but he thought
he could say for them as he could for himself that it had
tot come from them, or from any person connected
with the Government. How that letter or any allusion to
it had found its way into the public press he knew not.
No person was more astonished than himself when
he saw it. He was not aware that it was necessary
for him to say any thing farther against it ;
but he would repeat, that however that letter got
into the public press it had not been through the medium
of his Majesty's Ministers. With respect to the allusion
that had been made, that Ministers had influenced the
papers, all he could say was, that he should be sorry
to have made such accusations upon such grounds,
and still more to have defended them—he would not say
in a jesuitical manner—(Cheers)—but in a manner which
he could not but think bordered upon it. The idea of
a person standing in an ostensible situation in his
Majesty's Government ever doing any thing for the purpose
of influencing the public press, was preposterous—he
treated the insinuation in the manner it deserved.—( Hear. )
The Right Rev. Prelate had stated on a former night that
he had read those things, and believed them.—(Hear,
hear, and cries of No, no.)

The Bishop of EXETER—That they had been be-
-1 i eved.

Earl GREY—WeII, that they had been believed then.
—(The noise from the Opposition benches at this mo-
ment was to such an extent that Earl Grey sat
down ; but in consequence of the repeated cries of
"Go on, go on," the Noble Earl again rose.).—
He understood from the manner of the Right
Rev. Prelate, that he believed there was truth in
these charges. He begged of their Lordships to
mark the charity of all this.—(Tremendous cheering.)
His Noble Friend near him (Lord Durham) connected
with him by ties of the most dear and sacred ch•
ratter, and holding a high situation in the Govern.
meta, had been charged as being guilty in secret, and by
secrecy of transmitting to newspapers this letter ;—(Hear)
and more than that, that he was ready to do the same
thing again at the expense of the total severance of those
dear ties by which they were united.—(Hear, hear.)
If such a charge, made in such a manner, was called
Christian charity, and when it came from a
minister of the Gospel, whose duty it was to breathe
charity to all men, if the making of such
a charge was at all consistent with Christian
charity, he (Earl Grey) knew not of what it
consisted. He begged their Lordships' pardon for hay-
entered with such length into the subject; but
he felt it a duty to himself, to their Lordships,
and to the country to repel insinuations lie could never
have expected from any Member of their Lordships'
House, and least of all from the Right Rev. Personage
who sat behind him.
The Bishop of EXETER never meant to charge the
Noble Baron with having communicated the particulars
that had been alluded to, to the Times newspaper.
what be said was, that some one in the Government must
lisse furnished those articles. He had declared in
that House that he did not charge the Noble Baron
at, all, and more particularly in what he had stated last
night—so far from it that many of his friends around him
not know that he had even alluded to him.

Several Noble Lords rose together to explain, when,
after considerable confusion,
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY implored their
Lordships to keep order, especially as it was so
strictly laid down in their rules. H
complaint whiche would merely
laY a few words on the subject of
Wasmade by the Noble Lord. He had not charged
the Noble Lord with any underhand working, because
the county of Durham was so favoured by the Bill.
What he had stated was, that it being so much favourediu comparison with other counties, had the appearance to
many of a job.
The LORD CHANCELLOR here retired for a short
time, and on his return
The Earl of CARNARVON said that be was happy
to address their Lordships after the speech of the
Noble Lord. The debate had gone on, as yet,
1 very regularly, that every Noble Lord had answered
the other's speech. The Noble Earl (Harrowby, we
believe,) who had spoken early in the debate,
bid given a great deal of declamation in favour of
the Bill, and throughout had argued against it. He
had always, he said, been an enemy to Reform till now,
when be said he still retained those opinions, while he
wished the Bill to be commited. The Noble Lord blamed sa
unreformed Parliament for all the debts, wars, &e. in
Which we had been involved, and he now stated that
he would not now allow the people to be deluded any
longer. He (Lord Carnarvon) remembered the time
when if any one had used the words which the Noble
Lord had made use of at a public meeting, or even within
the walls of Parliament, be would with difficulty have
escaped great danger from the people, at least equal to that
which the opponents of this measure had recently under-
gone. If the Noble Lord would look at the expenditure
of the French Government in the present day, he would
find they were not much less if not more extravagant
than ever the Government of this country had been ; and
he thought that surely, finding that the case, his opinion
of a Reforming Government would be changed. As
he (Lord Carnarvon) was in great hopes that this
Bill never would get into Committee, he would not follow
the Noble Lord through the details; but if the Bill should
should be forced into Committee, lie would meet
the question fairly. He was certainly opposed to
the principle of the Bill, but he hoped that through
that was the case, he could meet the question in Com-
mittee manfully. They had been reminded of the dan-
gers which would follow an obstinate resistance to the
old practices of the Constitution.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
But he would ask, was there not some feeble
reminiscences of the leaven of the old Whig club in this
Bill ? During the last 30 years, there had been two ric-
ketty bantlings of Reform brought forward, on which
this was based, and was this a plan that would have
been brought forward by a temperate and well constituted
Government ? He asked whether there was any reasonable
chance that in the Committee there would be
such reasonable alterations male as would make
it a safe measure ? They hid been told that
this was a measure thatt would affect the lower class more
than the higher, but he had always understood that it was
duty the of a Government to legislate equally for all parties.
As to the argument that a man of landed propertywhilecould
the
sell that property sail leave thecountry,ths labour to
i
poor man who had nothing hu
subsist on, was obliged to remain, it was the most futile
he had ever he !. How it was that a man pos-
sessed of land, al holding it by different tenures,
*Quid dispose of ts when there were no purchasers to be
found, he was at a loss to conceive. If a revolution
were to take place, it would be found that the un-
fortunate landowner in leaving his country, must leave
his possessions behind him.—(Hear.) He thought there
was no case made out to support the preamble of the Bill ;
and he contended, that giving such a vast power in the
great towns, and almost exclusively to the lower class,
would be to make the Bill wholly democratic. By the
first Bill of Reform which had been detailed to their Lord.
ships, there was to be an addition of fifty-five members to
the counties, and forty-three to the manufacturing towns.
Re could not agree with the Noble Lord opposite (Grey,)
that it was idle to compare the county with the town re-
presentation, on the ground that they had all a common
interest ; but he asked how could that argument be
applied by the author of the Bill, when it appeared
that by the first Bill, forty-thre members were to be given
to towns, and fifty-five to counties. The flex'
Proposed to the House, added ten members to
the counties, and ten to the great towns, and
abolished some of the smaller towns, The Noble
Earl on that occasion stated that having added Menibeis
to the manufacturing towns, he had found it necessary to
give additional Members to the counties. Their Lordships
had therefore coming from
,the Government the doctrine
of necessity for -adding to the landed interest.—(Cheers
from the Oppeei,jort.
when he declared
) Then came the present Bill; aea
that it was considerably more demo-
cratic than either of the former Bills, he would apply
the principles of the Noble Earl himself. It appeared that
there were to be added to large towns ten Members ;
to
smaller towns twelve, and to counties, to which it sv,,s
necessary, according to the Noble Earl's former declara-
tion, to add Members, he had actually added no-
hing,—(Hear, bear,) The Noble Earl bad, withot,t

stnorse, taken away the boon, the only solitary
boon, which he had before given to the country.—(Hear,
hear.) If he (Lord Carnarvon) could overlook all the
o' jections which he had stated, there was another which
it was impossible en overlook. It was an objection
entirely to the principle of the Bill, which involved the exist-
ence of the country, its religious establishment, and even
the existence of the Crown itself. He alluded to that
great question which grew out of the state of Ire-
land.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Irish Bill was
not now before their Lordships, but they all knew
it was in progress. They had only to look
at the abstract principles of the present Bill, to see that it
was utterly impossible for their Lordships to pass it,
end to refuse to grant a simil ir one for Ireland. The
principle which should be acted on, should be to give re-
presentation to all the growing interests of the country, for
which their forefathers did not provide, because they were
not then in existence. To make room for that representation,
they ought to consider closely the reductions which they
could make in other places, But the principle
on which the present Bill proceeded, was one of a general,
calculating theory, on one scale, made applicable to all
cases. And it was one that was not applicable to Ireland,
because in that country there was no great growing interest,
nor any small town now risen up to importance. But at
the present moment, when the state of that country was
almost approaching to civil war, which he could
not designate by a less term than civil combus-
tion, would any Government who were not approaching.
a state of insanity, involve that distracted country in agi-
tation, on abstract principles of Parliamentary Reform,
when they knew there was a party seeking to de-
stroy the Constitution of the country, and to give up the
Church to spoliation ?—(Cheers from the Opposition
side of the House.) He asked them whether they wished
to introduce a Reform in Ireland that would make the
situation of the country more difficult ? He was
aware this was not a question which could be properly dis-
cussed on the present occasion, but he thought it in some
measure connected with the principle of the present Bill.
They had been already told, in the course of this debate,
that his Majesty's Government had received an admoni-
tion from a most able and influential person,
friendly, as he verily believed, to their general
policy, but certainly to their Reforming policy, in which he
informed them that he could not promise them the
gratitude of this country, when it had received the
boon. What was the repose he held out to them as likely
to follow this Bill ? Did he not say that the giant de-
mocracy to which it would give birth would seize the Noble
Earl, and would shake him over a precipice till he was
roused, somewhat unceremoniously, from the slumber into
which he had fallen ? If this were to be the fate a
reforming Government was to experience at the hands
of this its offspring, should not his Majesty's Ministers
pause before they gave breath to such a parricide. It would
be a marvellous sight to see the Noble Earl in such
a giant's grasp, suspended over the abyss now pointed
out to him, with the sword of state in his hand, the
gorgeous robes of his order dangling in the
wind, and all the vested interests and chartered rights
and church property, he thought so firmly secured
tumbling along with him and every settled institution.
He would now ask what was asked a year ago, whether
his Majesty's Ministers, at the present time, indulged in the
slightest hope of this measure being final. His Noble Friend
on the opposite side had stated that he had gone so far in
order that he might arrive at a firm resting-place,
at a spot where he might make his stand, and
say Reform should carried uo further.—(Hear, hear.)
Was there now one amongst the Noble Lords op-
posite who now thought that this was the spot where he
could take his stand? If any of them said so he must
tell them that there were opinions of Minis-
ters which reached his ears from various quarters
ether than those they heard within the walls of
that House. lie would ask them what they would say,
if he told them that he had beard a declaration
attributed to them, that this measure could not be final,
but that it went as far as it was prurient to advance at pre-
sent ? It could not be a final measure, it was impossible.
It was as impossible as that a ball once set in motion
should rest at the given spot their caprice might
design. But he would ask those who advocated
principles of Reform like those contained in this
Bill, what they saw so propitious for institution-
making in the present time, that they should select
st as one in which to plant a tree that required
forcing in order to make it flourish ?--(Hear, hear,
hear.) This was the worst of all times that could
have been chosen, and this, perhaps, was nearly the
worst of all Bills that could have been introduced. A
Noble Lord had quoted Burke, and he had a passage
in his hand, which, although spoken upon the subject of
economical retrenchment, applied so strongly to what was
going on around them, that he also would quote Burke. That
eminent writer said " it is my opinion that it is the inte-
rests of the Government that reformation should not be
hasty ; that it is the interest of the people that it should be
temperate. It is their interest that it should be tem-
perate, because a temperate Reform only can be permanent."
(Loud cheering.) That was precisely the position
for which he contended ; and when Mr. Burke went on
to say that room should be left for furthering improve-
ment, that they should look about them, that they should
examine the effect of what had been done, the effect of
which would be that they would proceed with con-
fidence because they would proceed with intelligence ;
when he said Mr. Burke went en to state this
opinion, he perfectly agreed with him ; and he
entreated their Lordship., before they voted for
this hasty and intemperate measure, to consider
the words if that great statesman, whose sentiments
he had quoted. A Noble friend of his bad, the
other night, appealed to the example of America.
It had riot been much the habits of their
Lordships, in discussing constitutional questions, to refer
to the example of America ; but if this Bill were to pass,
it was wise in his Noble Friend, and in those—
and in all those who meant afterwards to
govern the country, to accustom themselves
to references to America and to American practices,
instead of English practices, and to the ancient history of our
country. But if his Noble Friend wished them to
adopt the example of America with respect to Re-
form, it would behove them to look further into
the institutions of that country. Had they done
so they would have seen what the opinion of the
farmers of the American Constitution was as to the
tendency of popular institutions to change. They provided
in their fundamental I aw that no aiteration should
take place in the Constitution, or even proposed,
without its being thought necessaay by two-thirds
of both houses of the Legislature, or that
two-thirds of the separate states called a conven-
tion for the purpose; but even this was not
sufficient to carry an alteration of the consti-
tution, for whatever amendments might be so proposed,
they were required to be ratified by the legislatures of
three-fourths of the several states. Further, so jealous
were the framers of this republican law of disfranchise-
ment, that it was provided
,tbat no state should without
its own consent be deprived of its equal suffrage in the se-
nate. Let them compare this caution, this check upon change
with the precipitate and hasty dissolution of Parlia-
ment by his Majesty's Ministers—with its re-assem-
bling at a time of the year, and for a period
which not only deprived gentlemen of the time
necessary to attend to their private occupations, hut
left the Government itself no leisure to the great
and multiplied business of the nation. At the last
promulgation, after a long and fatiguing attendance, they
parted, certainly with no promise from the Government,
but with the expression of a wish to allow the legislature
some relaxation. But shortly afterwards he read in
one of those papers which were said sometimes to
create public opinion, and at others to echo it, which
His Majesty's Ministers sometimes worshipped as gods,
but which some slanderous persons said they sometimes
employed as mercenaries, he saw, he said, in one of those
papers that Parliament should and must be immediately
assembled, in order that this great question might
be brought on. When he had read the paragraph
containing this important announcement, although he
received private letters containing information of a
contrary nature, he made all his arrangements for a
journey to town, and three days afterwards the King's
proclamation came out to reassemble them together.—
They had accordingly again met, and if the Government
succeeded, contrary to all expectation, in carrying
this Bill into Committee, they were called upon to bring
forward their con& e projets —(Hear, hear, hear)
their new Constitutions.—(Hear, hear, hear)
their substitutes for this Bill in the space of
twenty-four house, and even that notice included the Sun-
day, which by this religious-destroying measure,
was to be considered a day of work. Perhaps,
however, they might never have occasion to take advantage
even of this notice, for certainly the outcry that had been
raised about a Rev. Person acting the part of recruiting
officer, seemed to show some apprehension on the part of
Ministers ; but he would ask, if it were among Reverend
Prelates only that recruiting officers were to he found f—..
Had there not been recruiting officers endeavouring to
detach from the majority of last October a portion of its
numbers? He had lived a little longer in the world that;
he wished he had, but he never knew the time when
his Majesty's Ministers had found it impossible to !mph)),
recruiting officers to make Parliamentary proselytes in !nip-
port of their measure. It had been said by a Noble

B iron who had lately spoken, that this measure
was called for by the mi!,lling classes, and certainiy
: more enlightened, a more numerous, a more
opulent, a more loyal middle class did not exist
than the middle classes of this country. Ile should not
i!iject to a moderate Reform, which gave a greater
-Ware of direct representation to those middle classes,
hit that would not he accomplished by this Bill. —(Hear
,ear, hear.) They knew by returns upon their table
that the largest part of the funded property of
this country was in the hands of that
class; hut he would have those who so eagerly embraced
the revolutionary projects of the Government, look to that
p irtion of their property. Few of those orders would be
found to live in a 101. house, and although it
was true all persons living in houses above that
value would also vote, vet there could not be a doubt
that the numbers of the 101. voters would be far
greater than those living in houses above that value.
If there were any line of distinction to be drawn in this
rauntry, it could amount to no more than this—those who
ived by the interest of their capital or the proceeds of their
property, or by their learning, science, or peculiar talents,
svhich soon created capital on the one hand, and those who
live.] on the daily fruits of their mechanical labour, on the
other. It was principally for the protection of the,
proprietory classes, the smallest, as well as the greatest;
that the theory of representation was designed;
and this sill if fairly understood, nor would it
be long before that was the case, would be found
by its pi ovisiens entirely to swamp the middle classes,
He would predict, that as the higher and middle
classes had but one common interest, the latter
would experience, that in destroying their then supposed
rivals, the higher orders, they had obtained nothing but the
destruction of their protectors. It was said that they were not
to look upon and consider this measure as it would operate
next November, or at the next election, but that
they were to look to an hereafter, when
property would have resumed its ascendancy and
the public mind be in a less excited state.—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Earl had stated that in
that state of things Members of another description
would be elected. What other description he meant, he
was at a loss to conceive, if they were not meant
to be good Members. He knew that she Noble Earl
had once sat for the county of Northumberland, but he
had also consented to become Member for one of the
small boroughs : did he then cease to be a good
Member or was Mr. Fox himself that excellent
Member for Westminster, an excellent Member when
be sat for a small borough? To what hereafter
were they to look ? Was it to that hereafter
when England should be separated from Ireland, when the
Protestant Establishment and ascendancy would be put an
end to, when the House of Brunswick would be considered
usurpers, when the Bill of Rights would be abrogated,
and when the autumn of the country's decay should
have begun to produce its " sear and yellow leaf ?" It was
said the presnt system was old and worn out at the elbows;
he would he content to patch it, and to wear, he
supposed he should call it, the old Saxon garment of
the Constitution ; but he would not trust it to this po-
litical tailor, however he might assure him that lie had
possessed himself of the newest French fashions, and, per-
haps, even the Belgian. But he would not treat this ques •
tion lightly. He thought it great happiness to live in a
time when the march of intellect was so great, but he
could not help observing that the march of folly
had advanced pari passa ; nay, so parallel hail
been their movements, that it required more discri-
mination than lie or even his Majesty's Ministers them-
selves possessed to distinguish the footsteps of the one
at times from the traces of the other.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lords who had brought in this Bill had told
the House that they had risked their all,—their honour,
character, and all that statesmen valued, for Reform.
Yes, but what is it, their all only that they risked ?
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Did they not risk
all that every one possessed, and that every one
valued throughout the British empire, upon this
their plan, in order to redeem that pledge which they
had given, when the " standing and falling" sickness
was upon them ? But he would now allude to what
had fallen from the Noble Earl ou the occasion of moving the
Second Reading of the Bill, when he alluded to the means
in reserve for carrying the Bill, to which he would be
driven, not however but as to the last resort of carrying this
measure. What means ? Was it a hope to make them the
victim, or was it that he would sacrifice that House ?
(Hear, hear, bear.) The Noble Earl said 64 driven"
to it—but they were not much driven to it surely, when
all the Members in that House admitted they were ready
to accede to some temporary measure of Reform. They
were not sorely " driven" to so extreme a course to
carry a measure so peculiarly temperate, that it
scarcely, with the exceptions of the two Universities,
which they did not much like, left unchanged
one stone in the whole fabric of the Constitution.
Was it for the purpose of forcing this exclusive
Bill that one would destroy for ever the British Constitu-
tion, that they would be prepared to advise the So-
vereign to put his hand to an Act to abuse the
most important prerogative for the purpose of ren-
dering that House, by a new creation of Members for
carrying this Bill, a mere passive tool of Government?
Their Lordships had been told that the Noble Earl at the
head of his Majesty's Government hod always been a Re-
former, but he (Lord Carnarvon) had known too that a
Noble Viscount on the Treasury Bench had not always
been a Reformer. He had known, too, that a great
part of his Majesty's Government had been
brought up in the school of Anti-Catholic Reform.—
(Hear, hear.) He knew that a Noble friend of his
had not been a decided Reformer until after much painful
consideration he had made up his mind on the subject.
He knew that a Noble Lord, also a Member of his
Majesty's Government, did, but a short time ago,
say of a Noble friend of his, that if he were a Reformer at all,
lie certainly was the most moderate Reformer of any.
Was it then from such a Government as thet—
a Government made up of such new reformers,
one of whom had either varied so much in
his opinions th it he (Lord C.) almost imagined that
when he went into office he (lid not know what a
Reformer was—(Cheers and laughter)_was it from such
a Government as that, that such a measure as this was to
be brought forward and sanctioned ? What confidence
could their Lordships have in the temper and policy
of such a Government? Unlike the Whig,' of former
times, who knew the danger of meddling with the insti-
tutions of the country, behold the headlong and sweeping
proceedings of the Wbiglings of the present time.—
(Loud laughter.) What were their Lordships to
think of the opinions of the great law officers of the
Crown by whom the Ministers had surrounded themselves,
and upon whom he supposed they relied for the soundness
of their law? Not only had that Noble and Learned Lord
talked of creating Peers for the purpose of destroying
the Peerage of the country, but in his conduct
he had dealt with that House as unceremoniously as he had
treated the House of Commons. Under his direction writs had
been issued to one place, and they had been refused to another;
so that instead of their being two powers to control Government,
this Whig merchant had desired, like the Grand Seignior,
to have his own slaves—to have the two Houses of Par-
liament constituted just as he thought proper, that
whatever projects entered into his mind he might
have the power of carrying forward. It was under
such Whiggism as this, that their Lordships were threaten-
ed with a Batch of Peers—a measure which only once
before had sullied the pages of history—an act emanating
from as great a man—one as constitutional as any
of the present day—Lord Bollingbroke—an act opposed by
the Whigs of that day, and for which the Minister was
impeached.—(Cheers.) A Noble Friend had thanked
the Noble Earl for the reluctance he had shown to
become an accomplice of a measure of such a kind.
lie would not have ventured to have offered thanks for any
absence from crime, because he would have thought it an in-
sult to have beard such things threatened by the Noble Earl.
He might be told, that in opposing this great measure of
Reform he was doing that which was contrary to the feel-
ings of the nation; but if he did not oppose it, he would feel
that he would be aiding in .the destruction of the
institutions of his country, which he had been
taught to love almost from his cradle, and which
were the admiration of surrounding nations. And
if their Lordships were to dispose by a short
hand in the way now proposed of their prejudices
how soon afterwards would follow the disposition of their
virtues ! It was prejudice that made them love their
youth, with all its follies, and the love of their country
bound every affectionate heart to the land in which they
which they were born, and what was this but prejudice
In conclusion, he implored their Lordships not to lay the axe
of the spoiler to the tree of the Constitution, but to avert, by
the rejection of this Bill, that which would so certainly bring
down destruction on all their heads.

Lord GODERICH had listened to the Noble Earl
who had ju,t sat down with the greatest atten-
tion. But he must state he had not succeeded in
convincing him that the objections to this Bill
and its principles, which he hod urged with so much
force, were founded on conclusive arguments. In consi-
dering the course which the present discussion had
taken, he thought that one thing was apparent which gave
it au air of authority which the former discussion had
not. It was now apparent, front the concessions of a II
the Noble I.ords that had yet spoken, whether the
present Bill was or was not passed, that a
most material change in the representation must

nev:tably taken places If he wanted for himself a jatsti-
ic ition of the course he had pursued on this occasion, if
*re wanted to vindicate himself from the charge which the
Noble Earl appeared so much disposed to throw en those
iao had, on a former occasion, differed front the
opinions which they now expressed, he thought he
might appeal for his own justification to those concentrated
opinions given from all parts of that House. But there
appeared a sort of instinctive horror to reign in the minds
of many of their Lordships against the change of that very
abuse which was the cause of all the miseries under which
the country had laboured, and to get rid of which was the
head and front of the offending of Ministers. Their only
crime was the attempting to get rid of the nomination
horoughs.—(Hear, bear, hear.) The very powerful
arguments urged by the Noble Baron who had moved the
amendment were directed to that point. A Noble Lord
who had addressed the House the other night, bad
argued the same way, and other Noble Lords had
adopted a similar course. The Noble Lord who
had moved the amendment had paraded before their Lord-
ships a list of the persons who now sate in Parliament by
virtue of that very abuse which the present Bill was in•
tended to rectify, and had told their Lordships seriously
that the value of the services of those Members was
sufficient to redeem the character of the system, and
leudly called on their Lordships to support it. The
Noble Baron, however, had avoided, by great
dexterity, stating to their Lordships the other defects
of the system ; but he could not hide them from the
eyes of their Lordships or his countrymen. The Noble
Baron had prudently concealed the dangers to be appre-
hended from such a system ; and it had been left to a No-
ble Peer to come boldly forward, and then step forth into
the lists, a Member of the Church, who with a boldness which
he had hardly ever before witnessed, and which had given
him great pain, proceeded to lift up the veil which the
Noble B iron had so carefully kept down, for the purpose
of concealing the defects of that system which he so much
lauded. The Right Rev. Prelate had lifted up the veil, and
shown those defects in all their horror, before their Lordships;
and more than that, in the most earnest tone, he had called
on their Lordships to perpetuate their existence. Why,
he would ask their Lordships, were those shameful blots
of the Constitution to remain ? They were shameful, be-
cause they placed in the hands of parties a degree of power
improper for them to possess. It was impossible that
their Lordships could have any guarantee that those irre-
sponsible persons would not employ that power to an im-
proper purpose. It was shameful, because it was noto-
rious that many who possessed the right of nomination to
which so touch value had been attached, exercised it
most improperly, and made it a subject of barter
and sale.—(Hear, hear.) It was notorious that those
who wished to get into Parliament under such a system
were compelled to pay for it. Yet still this denomi-
nation was called the security of the Constitution.—
(Hear, hear.) It was a notorious fact that that
right had been contaminated in the most foul manner,
and that it was to be obtained through the medium
of money.—.(Cheering.) Such being the case, he thought
it a scandal to the representation of the country. It was
contrary to the ancient right, and freedom of election.
It was contrary to all law and justice, and was founded
upon the most inequitable principles.—(Cheers.) Ought
not, therefore, such a system to be put an end
to ?—( Hear, hear,) Di i he ray this from any
fancy of his own ? Did he say it from extracts from
old musty records, or from some antiquated, phi-
losophical constitution maker? Did be state it from
the words of any Minister of France or of
Belgium? No. He stated it upon higher grounds
than any which he had stated. He stated it upon
words of authority, which he must beg their Lordships
to give him leave to say their Lordships had better not
depart from. He gave the words of an Act of Parliament,
and perhaps it might be as well to tell their Lordships how
the law dealt with all who were parties to such improper
acts ; it declares them to be incapacitated for sitting in Par-
!lament for those places which they had usurped—it in fact
eeclared them to be no Members of Parliament. He
would ask whether there had not been laws passed against
individuals who had so been declared to be no
Members of Parliament? The Right Reverend Prelate
who supported this system without perhaps looking
narrowly into the subject, when he knew to what it ended,
would probably be ready to alter his opinion. It tended
to debase not only the whole moral constitution, but
the Government as well as the people.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) But it had been said that that system was
highly necessary to maintain the dignity of that House;
lie denied that proposition most strongly. He said if the cha-
racter of that House--the power and existence of that House,
depended upon the maintenance of that abusive system, be
hoped that that would be the last session of the House
meeting upon such terms. If he was told that
he was a revolutionist, because he advocated the extirpa-
tion of those abuses, he gloried in the term, though it was
meant to be abusive ; for he could not I elieve it when
told by any man, that the existence of that House
entirely depended upon those abuses which had
been so long the gangrene of the Constitution.—(Hear.)
If their Lordships thought it necessary, as he thought
they did, to deal with that question on the principle
which he had mentioned, then the establishment of
those facts went far to justify the principle of the mea-
sure ; for if it was necessary to apply the disfranchisement
to some places, it certainly was equally necessary to apply
the principle of enfranchisement to other places. The
Noble Earl who had spoken last, had himself
taken steps to apply those principles on a
former occasion, (Hear, hear, bear) and how he came
now to oppose the second reading of this Bill, he only could
explain ; but in his late speech he had given no reasons which
appeared to him satisfactory. The Noble Earl then
quoted a passage from the speech of Mr. Burke,—but if
he (Lord Goderich) had met with the same passage he
would have thought it a most excellent reason
for supporting the measure. Because, what was the
substance of the passage ? It recommended a change in
time, in order to prevent a greater change being necessary,
at a future period. This was the principle of the present
measure, for the time had gone by for the Noble Earl's bit.
by-bit Reform ; had it been introduced some years ago, the
present measure might have been rendered unnecessary.
The Noble Lord had argued against his Noble Friend's
(Grey's) statement that revolution was a change, and said
that was a weak argument, because he was prepared to show
instances in which great changes had occurred, and
that horrors of a dreadful nature had taken
place under the sanction of the law, on the same principles
as those upon which his Noble Friend vindicated the
present Bill. He asked the Right Reverend Prelate
by what law it was, or by what part of
the French Consitution it was, that the mum of Paris
descended to the commission of such horrors as had
been detailed ? He asked by what known law
in France it was that a mob of men and women—mare
like demons than human beings, issued from Paris, drove
the King and Queen from their own chambers, murdered
their guards, and carried before them not the ensigns ol
Royalty, but the too frightful symbols of murder ? Was
that dune under any known law ?—(He tr,
It was true that there existed in France at that
time a sort of representative body ; but it was the very
antipodes of that legislative body that had previously ex-
isted. There had been Chambers of Nobles, Assemblies of
the Clergy, and pairs des etats, but there was at that
time a total separation of those assemblies. He asked,
then, where was the similarity between that vas •
and the present ?—(Loud cheers.) Would any man
say that the extinction of the nomination boroughs
was not only consistent with, but founded on the
principlee of the Constitution ? Would any man say,
that in giving Members to large towns this mea-
sure was not called for by necessity ?—( Hear, hear.)
And if they were obliged to call forth a new constituency,
on what principle could they act unless it was to call
that constituency from the inhabitants of the
voting? t
inconsistent
tiio towns?—
And of inhabitant householders also ? In some
places
(Cheers.) What was the principle of the scot and lot right
of
g?se had already sent Members to Parliament. It
w
onsistent with common sense to charge the
a
present measure as revolutionary. They might
say that it went too far— (Hear)—that the gratification
was too low, and the enfranchisement and disfranchise-
ment were too extensive ; but he defied any person
of common sense to say that the principle of the Bill
was inconsistent either with the law, the practise, or the
spirit of the Constitution.—(Cheers.) But they were
told, that in respect to the extended franchise, they were
increasing a demociatic class of voters. He wish d
to know in what respect the measure was so
democratic as it had been declared to be. It was admitted
that it was necessary to extend the right of voting to the
middle classes ; but many of the Noble Lords who objected
to the 101. qualification imagined I W. to be
the maximum, and that nobody in the great
towns who paid more than 101. a-year would
be entitled to vote. Again he asked why the
less cultivated or the less fortunate persons should
be excluded from the right of voting ? If there did
exist a class of persons who had nothing but
their industry to support them, was that sufficient
l be at least honest and industrious.—
to exclude them from the right of voting? By the pre-
sent Bill the lowest class of persons invested with the
privilege night
(Hear, and cheers.) Various conditions were imposed
upon that class, such as their having occupied a house
twelve months and paid rent, which was the strongest
presumption that they were at least honest and

irelustrious.—(Hear.) If they were not so; they
could not comply with the conditions imposed on them. He
therefore saw no reason why that class should be prevented
from exercising the elective franchise. He was aware there were
persons in the country who had had motives, and whose con-
duct was disgraceful. But he a-us of opinion, that in extend-
ing the franchise to that class, out of which those persona were
deluded, they furnished the best means of inducing all to
unite in sending to the House of Coalitions persons who
were fit to represent them, and who would do their duty
properly. In his opinion, the objections to this new
franchise had been carried to a most extravagant length,
if, indeed, they were not absolutely visionary. The
Noble Lord then proceeded to make comments on what
had fallen from some of the Right Reverend Prelates ;
hit from his addressing himself particularly to the
Bench of Bishops, and being at a considerable distance
from the gallery, we were unable to hear what he said
lie was frequently interrupted by loud cheers.
Several Noble Lords here cried out " Question," and a
pause ensued, during which
The Earl of ELDON rose. From the low tone of voice
in which the Noble Earl spoke, we were almost wholly
unable to catch the import of his remarks. He alluded
to the period when the revolution of 1688 took place, and
said, that the first act which was done by the Parliament
was to declare themselves the free and efficient body of repre-
sentatives of the whole Commons of England. The prin-
ciple on which that body proceeded teemed to be forgotten at
the present day. For there were some Members of Parliament
who allowed themselves to be called the delegates of the
people, and taken to task for the votes they might give. He
thought it high time not to Reform the House of Com-
mons, but so to alter that system as to prevent a
person sitting in Parliament, who would consent
to such an indignity.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It hail
been stated over and over again, that he had declared
himself an enemy to all Reform. He denied it, for no
man could be an enemy to all Reform. He repeats-I
what he had stated lately in the House, that he had
pledged himself, not against Reform, belt to investigate
and determine whether the measure brought forward under
the name of Reform, was really what it was professed to be.
He knew the blessings which this country had enjoyed
hitherto, blessings which made all ranks of men in this
country ; he knew that whether in this House or the other
the Members were but trustees for the benefit of the people.
But it had been said that during the last half century, he
had voted against every description of Reform that had been
proposed, He must confess that during that period many Re-
forms had been proposed, which he could much rather have
voted for, than the present one. But he declared that he had
never seen any plan brought forward which bad a ten.
dency to promote the happiness of the people. During that
period he had never known, either in that or the other House,
one measure brought forward under the enchanting
name of Reform, which appeared to him an altera-
tion fir the better.—(Hear, hear.) If they looked
hack to the propositions of Mr. Pitt, of Mr. Fox,
and of the present Premier, and compared them with the
present Bill, they would perceive that no such measure as
the present bad ever been thought of. The Noble Lord now
at the head of Government once proposed the appointment
of a Committee on the subject of Reform. But his motion
failed. He subsequently moved to add 100 knights of the
shire to the county representation; there he also failed. indeed
every proposition for Reform which was brought forward in
the Commons, while he (Lord Elden) sat there, failed,
for the House was of opinion that so far from
being an improvement of the Constitution, the al-
teration would be a dangerous one, These came
the Bill which was last before their Lordships, the
preamble of which was so vicious in its principle that it
was utterly impossible ea to connect the clauses of it
in Committee, as to make it at all beneficial to the
country. That Bill was lost, and the present Bill
brought in, the preamble of which was an exact copy of
the former one. He contended, therefore, that as the
preamble of the present Bill was as objectionable as
that of the former Bill, it ought to meet the sante fate.
When he recollected what would be the consequences
of the doctrines of the sovereignty of the people he
could not but tremble under the idea of those con-
sequences. When he recollected that this was the
anniversary of the day of the passing of that measure, of
which it was thought the Irish would make so good a
use, he thought he might ask whether those fruits which
their Lordships looked far with so much confidence, had
arisen out of the seeds which had then been sown?'
He thought there would be no difficulty in answering this
question. With respect to this measure, no argument in
Committee could bring before their Lordships any thing
with regard to it which they had not heard in
the course of tire last and of the present debates.
The objections to the last Bill were, among others, that by
it their Lordships were taking away those vetted rights
which it had been the pride of the country to sustain,
and which it had heretofore been the anxious object of the
Legislature to protect. But what would their Lord-
ships say even if the Bill which was formerly
rejected had been the law of the laud when
tie Bill would authorise them to sty they had taken away
the franchise from those to whom it ought to be continued,
and added Members to various places from which others
had been taken away ? and yet the last Bill was are
gued, just as much as this, to have been 4 final Bill.
Nevertheless, nobody who knew what had taken place
in this country since the year 1795, could suppose
that either the Jut Bill or the present Bill, if either the
one or the other were passed into a law, could Lie a
final Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He believed the last revolution
in France had produced all the anxiety which was now
felt; and the more distant revolution in France, namely
that in 1789, hed been endeavoured to be followed up by a
revolution in this country. Whether that revolutionary
spirit had progressed ever since that time in one
country or other, some Noble Lords might perhaps be better
able say than himself. In the years 1789, 1790,
and so on, however, no man could walk the streets of
London without seeing posted:egain the walls in large letters,
"No King, No King !"—and he (the Noble Lord)
was as sure as he was in existence, that if a Bill
were passed now upon the revolutionary principle
of the present measure, condemning all the institutions
of the country which had been held sacred for centuries,
he could not but tremble for that danger, in which the
Throne of this country would indisputably be placed. At
the same time, the consequences which would undoubtedly
follow the passing of the measure would be a just penis ,meat
and nothing but a just punishment of those who bad
advised his Majesty to sanction such a proceeding,
nay, there was nu infliction of punishment that ought not
to follow it. He would be glad to know if the Crown were
to exercise its power for the purpose of defeating an Act
of Parliament, it that would not be the exercise
of one of the most dangerous powers that it could
enter into the mind of man to conceive.—
He had bestowed the greatest consideration upon
this subject, and protested that nothing in the
world should induce him to take away vested .ights
unless guilt were proved, or compensation offered. All
our old writers had sail that the right of voting was a tem-
porary property joined with a trust, and unless that trust
were betrayed, the temporary property could not be taken
away. Tire nature of the property to which the right of
voting was attached had b, en known for ages, and had been
the subject of purchase and sale, the right of voting at-
tached to it being taken into consideration. They had
nut now the Irish Bill before them, or he would
name boroughs, the patrons of which were compensated
for their annihilation at the Union. He would not ray
whether the English who owned boroughs ought now to
claim such a compensation ; but this he woule, say, that
no man of honour wire had received compensation for an
Irish borough, could vote for the eecourl reading of this bill,
which gave no compensation to the owners of Eng-
lish borough;, without to-morrow going to the Tree-
suary, where, from all account, money weal rather
wanred,—(A laugh,)--and present the sum which
he had reccieved for this Irish bormegh.—(Laughter.) It
was his sincere belief that the great mass of intelligence and
property in the ceuotry was adverse to this Bill ; he did not
say that the political unions were not in its favour—unions
which it had been intended to put down by proclamation,
but which have certainly proved of no avail,
;or money was taken fturn the operatives of this
country hi the shape of weekly and monthly sub-
scriptions to carry on election contests, sometimes at a
distance of two hundred miles from their own homes.
He would not be any party to tampering with the
Constitution :of the country in the manner this Bill
tampered with it; cud let happen what may, he, a,
a layman;, would say what had been already said
by a Right Reverend Prelate—he woull do his
duty, and leave the event in the hands of Providence.
He could not sit down without protesting against the un-
constitutional use which had been made of the King's name
It was proper to advise the Krug to recommend Reform
to the consideration of Parliarneut, but it was not proper et
,llude to him as approving of all the details of this measure,
The duty ha owed to that King,—the duty he owert
to their Lordships,—the duty he owed to all his fel-
low subjects of every rank and degree,--..asst with
respect to their rights, all stood equally high,
and he considered himself a trustee for theirs all,—corn-
pelted him to vote against this measure. For the sake of
the higher orders, fur the sake of the middle orders, for the
take of the lower orders, he would never be a party to
depriving any of them of the blessings of that Con
stitution, which, whatever might be said of it, hail
rendered them happier than any other people
on the face of God's earth, and gives to the country a

y aL;(1 wVoll had realPrv,l :f the rt41nTr...1,,r.
Ind glory of the world.

Lord TENTERDEN then rose re address the House ; but
lie Nohlc Lord spoke in so low a tent of voice as to be
divest inaudablc. We understood him to say, that :et
emild not on this ()minion give a silent vote, but roust bran'
tm,,,tf,:e second reading
whyeadilig he foundoif
this isßhililnf hound
.iselTtieii uesttolonvobteef:ei
reinte:
douse was, whether an alteration should be made in the
election of Members of the House of Commons, to a rio!ent
degree. If the question had been ae to a Bill for
he Reform of Parliament, of a moderate character, he
would have voted for its second reading ; but this w e
nut the case, for the question before the House was, whe-
ther they were to go into the consideration of aspecific Bill,
which he, in his conscience, thought ought not to pas,
that House. The effect of this Bill, if it were pasted,
.is it seemed to him at least, would be to place the elec-
tive franchise in the hands of one chase of persons.
If that class was the class commonly denominated the
middle class of society, he would not have bad the same
objections which he had now to it ; but he thought that by
this Bill that power would be given to a class, who,
though they were entitled to their Lordship' protection,
yet were not entitled to have such power placed in their
hands, because they, in his opinion, could not use it for a
good purpose. He had listened most earnestly, and
with great attention to all that had been said
io favour of the Bill ; but he had not heard a
word in its favour, which induced him to think that the.
elective franchise should be extended to the villages around
London. He had no objection to the franchise being ex--
tended to Manchester and such places that had raised
themselves into opulence by their industry, but he deci-
dedly objected to such a sweeping measure ne
the present Bill. It had been often said, that as
this Bill had twice passed the House of Commons by large
majorities, it therefore ought to pass that House. If
once that principle was admitted there was end to
their Lordships' power, and there was no use in their de-
bating such a Bill for several days, He could see no
reason to hope that by the Biil going into Committee
such amendments could he introduced into it, as would
render it such as he could support ; therefore, he
was bound to vote against the second reading.—(Heao
The Noble and Learned Lord concluded by calling upon.
their Lordships to give their decided and uncompre.-
mising opposition to the Bill going into Committee.
The Bishop of ROCHESTER rose amidst loud and
general cries of " Question." When the sell had subsided
the Right Rev. Prelate stated that nut having changed his
sentiments, he was anxious to embrace that opportunity of
explaining the grounds on which he hid determined to vote
against this Bill it; all its stages. The only argument
which had been adduced to induce the Right Rev. Pre-
lates to change their opinions, had chiefly respect to ex-
pediency. He, however, could not persuade himself of
the propriety of legislating on expediency to the subver-
shin of all law and justice.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
If it were proved that they should not de evil in order
that good might ensue, and he Will persuaded that his
Right Rev. Brethren would agree with him in the prin--
eiple, much less should they sanction a great evil for a
temporary inconvenience. That temporary inconvenience
was the pressure of popular opinion ; but he begged
leave to draw here the distinction between popular cla-
mour and public opinion. He admitted that his Mue
jesty's Government were supported by popular cla-
mour, but lee fairly believed that the majority
of what he called public opinion were opposed
to the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Now it was said by some,
" Vox Popuii, vox Del." He said no, and he re-
peated it, for God himself had declared it otherwise.
He read in the Scriptures of the raging of the sea and of
the noise of its billows ; but he never beard of the people
who were thus compared, extolled for prudence. Nu man
more respected the people in their proper station than he did
let a man be a commoner, if he pea formed his duty in
that station of life in which he was pleeed, he
was as much worthy of respect and confidence
as the highest Peer in that House.—(Cheers.) But
he said, "Ne outer ultra crepidarn t" they were not
to be called out of their sphere, and elevated above it
It had been said that if the middle classes of society, and
those to whom the franchise by this Bill was to
be given, had had a share in the representation, there
would have been no war, no taxes, and no public debt,.
Whet was the excitement that prevaled after all the
great naval victories of the country ? It was well known,
and therefore it was not necessary for him to state it. But
what was the enthusiasm of later days? That which fol-
lowed the Noble Duke after his great victories? Why
he could not pass through the streets without being wel-
comed and hailed by the populace. Yet that very individual
a very short time ago he had seen hissed and hooted at,
by those very persons who but a short time afiere
wards followed the carriage of the French Arnbae-
sador, and loaded him with applause —(Hear, hear.)
Such was popular opinion. But what was public opi-
nion, and how ought it to be expressed ? Nut by the voice
of clamour, but by the opinion of the House of Commons,
who was the true representative of the people ; but not
by a House of Commons whose Membets hail been
elected by intimidation and by mob law. He asserted,
public opinion was with them, but popular opilion was in
favour of the Bill.—(Great cheeriug.) He held his
seat in that House under a different tenour
from matey of their Lordships. His ancestors however
had sat in that House for nearly 500 years, end he
would never disgrace them or himself by voting
for the destruction of that Constitution which
the present Bill had in view, under which the country
had so long flourished, and had risen to its present emi-
nence.—(Cheers.)

The Bishop of GLOUCESTER requested the iudul
gence of their Lordships while he made a few observations.
He should not have intruded himself on their Lord-
ships bad it not been the pleasure of many Noble
Lords to make pointed appeals to the Right Reverend
Bench. He trusted, therefore, that their Lordship?
candour would allow him to state
.the grounds on which
he intended to give the vote be should. —(ll,•ar.)
A Noble Earl, the representative of an honour-
able house, had held out specifie indications to the
Episcopal Bench what he considered ought to induce them
to vote for the Bill—because he stated it was for
their interest, and that they were always ready to advocate that.
It the Noble Earl intended that insinuation to apply to the
Bench of which he had the honour to he a Member, he
begged to tell him that he rejected the imputation with
unutterable scorn.—(Tremendous cheering.) But if lie
intended it only to refer to the general interests of
the clergy of the Church of England, he must
allow him to tell him that he knew of no interest
which any single clergyman held, different front the whole
body. What was conducive to tie interest of the people
,••as equally so to the clergy. But see Neale Lerd Lad
risen on the next night, not to explain, but to add to bis
remarks on the Bench of Bishops. ire h assured
them that he Ohl not attack them as ieliionists, but
only for the purpose of impeaching them wish profligate
conduct in that House. He had brought firwani no con-
troversial charge against them, but only a mu; ,l—he im-
peached them not of heresy, hut °toy of pottl gutty.—
(Cheers.) Another observation made the Notmle
was that the clergy had always shown themselves abettors
of oppression and of tyranny. Such charges must either
be true, or foul and inonetrous calumny..—(Heat.) He
called upon the Noble Earl in the face of the Lermishipa
and of the.country to substantiate his charges by proof, or he
must accept the other alternative.—(Cheers.:, And ne might be
assured, that not all his hue of aucestry would be ably to protect
him from the disgrace thet evoald attend mmita.--(nn era.)
With respect tm the elietge of tyranny, ha would remand
their Lordships that the last tyrant who reigned in
this country was King James the Smicond—w.o
showered favours on his abettors. He would net
say who his. abettors were, but would leave the Nu-
ble Earl to judge—(Hear, hear, hear)—and lied it
not been for the spirit that was engendered by
the Church of England, the country would have been
destroyed. The members of the Church were more mo.
derete in the exaction of their dues then the prop • -tore of
Ity tithes. When famine, with all tt horrors, vieee .1 Ireland,
~f all persons who came forward to aseie:, the sutfertis on
that occasion, none were more prominent, Itnere!, and en-
ergetic than the clergy. With respect to the reeent qmm stier,
the clergy had been pieced in a very peculiar
situation. It Wag known that on the Recoil of
the last Bill the greater part of them voted against it, and
what was the consequence ? Why, that they had beta
subjects of obloquy ever since. Tney had no interest,
direct or indirect, iu the preservAion of nomination
boroughs, and if they were to be looked upon as private
mndividu ds, what possible inducement .ould t .ey have
to oppose a measure introduced by his M sty',
Ministers ? Their only object slid wisil Was, to preserve
peace and contentment. 0, all time charges a•lvauceu against
them (the Bench of Bi,hop,) only one admitted
of a moment's consideration, which was, that they
were combined aeainst the nmeaeure, that their
opposition was the very re-ult of a conspiracy.
fills was one of the most untrue az,sm tionN tlwt bad
been made against them.--( Hear, hear, S r far
:rum there being any conepirac, their Lad not been
.1 single meeting, or any thing like as underetarieieg,
among the Bishops as to time course they should a opt.
On the former occasion, havoig given the subject
,via most cousiderate deliberative, be had tilt
airnself called upon to vote against the Bill.
Nothing had transpired sitter that time e,

led him to alter his sentiments in any re
epa et. The principle of the two Bills we re
nearly the. same, awl the difference was not suf-
ficient to make him alter his sentiments on the subject.
It was to the pArreiples of this measure that he objected,
and not to the form, for he would like to see all abuses cor-
rected, and it had been his wish to see that. Speaking with
reference to the Constitution of our country, he objected
upon principle to all great changes, because he considered a
Constitution to he an order of things which had risen
up with the growth of education, and which had ac-
, onimodated itself to the wants and characters of
the people.—(Hear.) As far as additions to our pre-
sent system, which the altered state of things in
the country might call, for he would very readily and
very cordially agree—he meant as regarding repre-
sentation* to large unrepresented bodies; but with respect to
the pr. sent Bill, he considered the question to be, not be-
tween Reform and no Reform, hut between the present
Constitution and this Bill. The principles of the Bill,
as it appeared to him, were the principles of per-
etuel change. He would not detain the House
by entering into detail, but he might be allowed
to say that if all the speeches that had been
delivered in the course of this debate, there had
been none which had brought more conviction to
his mind than that which had proceeded from
the Noble and Learned Lord, the Chief Justice
of the Court of King's Bench. But his mind
was very much influenced in the course he had
taken, and was disposed to take by the speeches he
had beard six months ago, particularly from a Noble Earl
and Baron opposite, who then earnestly counselled the
House to reject the Bill, but who had on the pre-
sent occasion as earnestly counselled there Lordships to
go into Committee. Those Noble Lords had grounded
their justification for altering from the course
they had formerly taken upon the circumstances of
the country being altered for the last six months. Ad-
mitting that their opinions on the principles of
the Bill still remained the same, he did not
think that they had made out their case. But what was
the most extraordinary circumstance attending this pro•
eeeding was, that half the Noble Lords who supported the
motion for going into Committee, declared in the strongest
terms their disapprobation of the measure itself. One
Noble Earl had declared it an unhappy measure; yet he
supported its going into Committee. Another Noble
Lord—one who was so peculiarly earnest in im-
ploring their Lordships to reject the measure
;n the former instance, but who advised them to
vote for the second reading on this occasion, had
told them it was a fatal measure—fatal to the
British Constitution. Were their Lordships then to be
induced, by arguments from those Noble Lords, to vote in
favour of a measure which they themselves had declared
they considered to be one so full of fatal consequences ?
Slimy of the Noble Lords who now advocated the
Bill were at one time the determined opponents of
every measure of Refoom, great or small.—(Cries of
So ! No!) If he ware not correct, he ought
to be set right, for it was generally understood that all
members of Mr. Canning's Administration were pledged to
oppose all motions for Reform. He did not blame
Noble Lords for having changed their opinions, for he
doubted not that they had done so from a sense of
duty, but the circumstance ought to make them more
lenient in condemning those who think the present mea-
evre goes too far, who are ready to support a temperate
and constitutional measure of Reform, but not
o Bill which was subversive of all our institutions.
They had been appealed to as the guardians of
public morals to vote for this Bill, as putting an end to the
system of bribery subversive to all morality. But
oetwithstanding his wish to prevent bribery as
far as legislative enactments could prevent it,
he eoold not believe from all he had seen
and heard that this Bill would have that effect.
Indeed some Noble Lords of great Parliamentary experi-
ence authorised hint in saying that it would increase
bribery. There was another point connected with public
mora:s he wished to notice. One of the greatest moral
evils this country laboured under was the multiplication
of oaths, which did not seem to the parties taking
them of any great importance.—(Hear, hear.) Tbts
evil he thought would be increased, in consequence
of the machinery of the Registry and other parts of this
1 ill, which could not fail to increase the crime of perjury.
k{e feared also that the poor-rates would be appropriated
to election purposes, instead of being applied to the wants
of • our fellow-creatures.—(" Question.") He consi
tiered the Bill, if it passed, unlikely to please the people of
England, for lie was far from satisfied that the whole
nation, or even a large majority of it, were in favour
of it. The only argument that bad much weight
his mind in favour of the Bill was, that it was called
for by the voice of the country. He hoped the House
would not he cleat' to the voice of the country ; he
meant the intelligent part of it, for of course to the
vier of the rabble none of them would listen; but
be did not ti,ink that this Bill was called for by that
cress of the community to which they ought to attend.
It was caned for by a class of persons who mourned to them-
selves the names of radicals and who wished to substitute a
republican Goveerrnint for that under which we had
ro long flourished. Again, all classes hostile to the Church
Establishment were combined in favour of this Bill,
Catholics, Dissenters of diflrent denominations, open and
and avow; d infidel., were ail loudly clamorous for the Re-
form Bill.—( hirer, bear.) If he believed the measure
likely to be beneficial, he would not be deterred by that
feet from voting for it ; but thinking otherwise, it
'mule not be supposed that this combination of persons
being in favour of the Bill, would sway the Mem-
bers of the bench on which he sat to advocate it.—(Ques-
tion.)—He had-one observation more to make. (A laugh. )
After the mans, appeals that had been made to prelates,
he thought it was not too much that they would hear
him out. It had given him great and serious pain
to rind, that in obeying the dictates of his conscience, he
was separated from home of his Right Rev. Brethren,
trone whom he had been from his earliest youth united in
friendship and attachments, from whom he had never
on any former occasion differed on any question; whose
motives he certainly knew in every possible way to
to be noble and honourable, and whom he was persuaded
acted only upon the same feeling as birn.elf, viz. by a desire
to promote the happiness of the country, 2nd discharge
the duty of their apostolic character.
The LORD CHANCELLOR and one or two other
Peers, now rose, but the cry being general for his
Lordship, he began as follows :—I certainly owe
some apology to your Lordships for proceeding to ad-
dress to you more than a very few words at
se late a period of this protracted debate.
I am aware that fatigue now weighs down both your
Lordships' minds and bodies, and I can assure your
Lordships that I am in an extreme state of
suffering from the heat of the House; hut I do not feel
that I should discharge my duty, as holding the situ-
ation Ido in his Majesty's Government, the duty I owe
to your Lordships, and hardly the duty I owe to myself,
were I to rest upon what your Lordships all know of my
opinions on this question so often stated in your Lordships'
preeence. I assure your Lordships I shad trespass as little
as possible on your patience and time, and but for some-
thing that has been s id, and but for some charges that have
been mane against this Government for their production
and prosecution of this measure, my task would have been
simple indeed, But in justice to them, in justice to
yeur Lordships, and in justice to what I know, these
charges I cannot allow to be altogether unnoticed.
And when I talk of repelling charge,i, before going
into those levelled at Government is general, for their
mnduct in this measure, let me put aside at once
those minoe matters, one of which has been alluded to
et an earlier period of this night, as it was ,cri former
occasions—which has been partly retracted, pertly
'explained away, and partly triumphantly repelled. Let ine
only linger to add my unqualified, unhesitating, and com-
plete concurrence in the indignant daraial of it which has
hitherto been given by my Noble Friend at the head of
Government. I know, and a far as a non case -answer
for matters not within the scope of his own immediate
knowledge, I may also say of my colleagues, for any belief
amountsto an absolute conviction that there is not the shadow
of 3 shade of a foundation for thoeicalumnies which have
been whispered in public, and which have been urged here,
but have received an indignant denial. I refer not merely
to the blacker charges which were never meant to be urged,
but of a charge hardly of a less dark description, that of
violating the sacredness of our trust, in respect to a corre-
spondence whichjhas been alluded to. Now it was referred to
by a Right Rev. Prelate who spoke last with a degree
of ignorance—(Herr)—but I will say, of the most inno•
cent ignorance—(A laugh)—innocent ignorance, not
only of what had passed four or five years ago in the
formation of the Canning Administration, but innocent
also in reference to what bad passed thin evening before
them, when be mistook the cheer of proud and instant denial
of the Noble Marquis for a cheer of assent; and when that
Right Rev. Prelate proceeded to give him and his
colleagues who he thought had changed their opinions on
Parliamentary Reform, credit for their candour. Ivly
e Lords, there is not the shadow of truth in the imputation
' or belief of the Right Rev. Prelate. Those who constituted
the Administration of Mr. Cannning retained their opinions
upon that, as uppttall other questions of foreign or domestic
eei epoliey, precisely the same after the junction was formed as
\,..31.f0re that ever:o,44)ok place. And if any instance were
' -

Wanting particularly on the subject of Parliamentary Pe-
fOrm, it does so happen that I, in my own proper
iterson, although not connected with that Go-
v,* rnment, yet a very great favorer and promoter of it,
brut for the purpose of facilitating that junction,—it is well
known that I formerly and previously to the formation of
drat Government, declined taking any office in it; but I was
a supporter of the main principles of that Administration,
and supported it with the exception of one or two occa •
sions, one of which, indeed the most renearkable,when the
question of Reform was moved in the House of Commons,
when he opposed Government, and success fully opposed
them, and the Noble Marquess, whose cheer was
misunderstood, as if any alteration whatever had taken place
in kis opinions, acted along with me. I ought to apologize
to your Lordships for thus detaining you with the
refutation of these charges ; but I am aware
if we do not come forward and read a line
of perpetual contradiction to these charges, they are
taken as admitted for truth. Following the example
of the Noble Mai guess's admirable and luminous speech,
combining so much deliberate and conciliatory truth,
it is my intention to lay aside every thing that can he
construed as proceeding from personal motive. Now first,
my Lords, I am surprised to hear it said that Government
with haste and precipitancy have plunged into the ques-
tion of Re'orm. As often as I have heard this charge
made I have given it a denial; but as my Noble
Friend (Carnarvon) forgets all these denials, I trust I may,
perhaps, at length succeed in preventing him from reiterat-
ing this 101 times repeated charge, if I give him an authority
which I am disposed to respect on such an occasion, and
which lam sure my Noble Friend will believe—l mean the
authority of my Noble Friend himself. It will be found
that on the question of Reform the ♦ery first day
that the Noble Earl at the head of the Govern-
ment took his seat on that bench, my Noble Friend
said, " I do not wish the Noble Lord opposite to
delay, for one moment, to bring forward the
great subject of Reform ; if, indeed, he is anxious for his
own safety, if he is anxious for the safety of his country,
he will take the earliest and most convenient opportunity
of submitting his measure to the attention of the country.
Now, my Lords, we did not take the earliest op-
portunity, and so follow up the advice of my Noble
Friend, but we took a period of three months to consider
and mature the plan which we then introduced, and
having carried it through the other House, and one
stage in this one, it was finally rejected by your
Lordships.—(Hear, hear, hear.) We again brought
it forward and having brought it to the present stage in this
House, he thought it was rather too bad that his Learned
Friend should so taunt them as having brought forward
the question precipitately. Most of his Noble Friends,
and Right Rev. Peelste who spoke last, are of opinion the
question of Reform had been brought forward precipitately,
hastily, and before the country was ripe for it. I am
sure, my Lords, that no one could have thought that they
had been for three days listening to the debates in this
subject. Any one coming in, and having heard the
speeches would have wondered where they bad been
to for the last few years. The Rev. Prelate
said with singular consistency, that the popular voice is
folly, and within a few sentence, after the public mind was
wise. Then my Noble Friend says that the property
of the country is all against the Bill, meaning,
as I think, the landed interest, that there might
he no doubt what the property was, and in case the Noble
Duke had wished to qualify his statement to his
Noble Friend near me (Lord Carnarvon), arida
to that, so as to carry the case further, that
the whole of the trade of the country is against
us. Why, we add that to the property of the
country, and we find that not only the landed interest, but
the commercial, in fact the whole interest of the country are
leagued against this particular measure. Now, to
my mind it is most extraordinary that those who are
in possession of that property—of the whole property of
the country take no steps to have their opinions upon the
subject made known. When I see the Right Rev. Bench
opposite rne, who have only a fractional part of the property
to the country, but a large fraction, yet they were not
at all against the measure.—( Hear, hear.) Again, many
of your Lordships who have pledged yourselves
to this measure are not altogether void of property;
but putting all that aside, how does the state of things
out of doors stand—how does the trade and property
out of doors stand ? There was the meeting of the bankers,
merchants, and traders of London. held in the Egyptian
Hall which was numerously attended, and, which comprised
more of the• property of the countrythan had ever before met,
yet they petitioned for the passing of this Bill, and are they
to go for nothing? I would like to know what would have
been said had the 30th part of those who attended that meet-
ing met for the purpose of opposing the Bill. Even though
they had not liked this meeting in an open hall, in a pub
lie manner,but had met with closed doors, and admitted with
tickets, my Lords, if a petition had been agreed to at a
meeting of the description which I am de,cribing, I am
sure that for the next Session of Parliament we would
never have heard the last of it. Surely after this
we would hear no more of the trade of the coun-
try, and of the property of the country be.
ing against this measure. As to whit fell
from his Noble and Learned Friend, that a Bill being
passed by the Commune ought to be passed by
that House, he agreed with him in that; but when it
was said that the trade of the country, the whole wealth
of the country, was against this measure, how had the
majority by which it had been been passed, been made up ?
')9-1, Members had voted for the Bill, and
191 against it. They were not merely Mem
hers for stela.' places, but of the county
Members the largest majority was for the Bill, ninety-
three Members for counties, having voted for• it, and only
ten against it. Those ten who alone voted against
the measure, your Lordships must be aware, numbered
among them some representatives of the smallest counties,
and net one of the largest ones. If any one of your Lordships
has the curiosity to know how the rest of the ma-
jority is made, now I will take a pleasure in t.lling
you. Of 137 representatives for large towns, 111 voted
for the measure, and 26 against it. When I come to the
boroughs I find the case altogether in the oppo-
site way. I also find that most of them that
are included in schedules A and B, had voted against the
measure. It may administer comfort to the Right
Reverend Prelate to know that of the Members whose
boroughs are in shedule A, there were to be found those
who supported the Bill, and seventy-seven against in—
( Hear.) As to schedule B, there were only twenty-
one, against which the numbers were nearly balanced.
This Parliament, be it known also, was chosen under the
present system, and notwithstanding the advantage that
circumstance gave against Reform, which advantage had
been already taken against the Bill—notwithstanding the
tendency of persons elected by the present system to op-
pose it, and though the use of the franchise is not yet
extended to those who are to be benefited by the
Bill, nevertheless, in a House of Coinnione so
chosen, there was a majority in favour of it of
county Members, in the proportion of no less tha❑
eight or nine to one, and, in point of importance,
incalculably greater even in the numbers of the
majority. This is one reason why I ask your Lordships
if there is even a shadow of foundation for the assertion—
not that the public voice was against it, for
that would be joking with the question; but whether any
reasonable portion of the public had expressed themselves
strongly opposed to it? It might be said that the Members
who voted i❑ the majority, looked to the new constituency
to sand them back to Parliament. We have been told
that those Members were deputies and not representatives,
of the people—if that be so, they had become deputies
under the present system. If I had found that immediately
after the general election, those Members gave
their vote's, more strongly in favour of the measure,
than after having had eight or nine months
time for reflection, then indeed I might have supposed that
their eagerness for Reform had abated. But what was
the fact ? The majority instead of being diminished hail con-
siderably increased—(Cheers)—and that could only have
arisen from one or two suppositions, either that they did
nut act as mere deputies to those who elected them, but
gave their votes from their free and unprejudiced judg-
ment, or they must have known that their constituents con-
tinued to entertain the same opinions upon the subject
of Reform, If they had had any reason to believee that
their constituents hasi enang ei their minds, or that
they had relaxed in their iu quite evident that their
change of opinion would have been very manifest
by the. votes the Members had given. lusteed, however,
of which, the majority had increased instead of diminished.
A Noble Duke has stated, that in 1829 and 1830, there
was little or no call for Parliamentary Reform, and that
it was not until the latter end of July 1330, there was
any agitation, or any great feeling in the public mind
on this great question. I beg to assure the Noble Duke
that he is very greatly misteken, If that Noble and Gallant
Duke had lived as much in this eountrya—l do not allude
to late years, during which he certainly haw resided
here, but during the preceding years—he would
have formed the Fame conclusion as his Noble
Friend. Lord Grey, had formed—that the question
of Parliamentary ir:F.eform has been making a
sternly and constant progress ever since it had fixed
tlig attention of the public mind, since 1798. It was
greatly impedid by the events which occurred about
the period of the French revolution, but towards
the latter end of that war it resumed its activity, and
when the short peace of 1802 arrived, it increased more

steadily, more uniformly, till at last it Wendt.'
all over the country.—(Cheers.) It is impossible for any
person to deny that there were incidents—l allud,
more particularly to the determination taken by some
of the Noble Duke's colleagues, and to their conduct in th
other House of Parliament in 1828, when a change we,
taking place in the administration, which tended very much
to hasten the question—when it was found an oppor-
tunity was offered, of giving the franchise to one 0:
two great towns—when the East Retford question
gave them that opportunity, and when such crimi-
nality was proved sufficient to disfranchise that borough_.
when it was the most politic course for Ministers to take,
and when that opportunity was repudiated—ill these things
had the effect of giving such a stimulus to Reform as it
has not received for many years. There is now no way
of stopping its progress, and it is our duty to take that
course which the country calls on us to take, and which
we feel to be necessary, with the view of giving peace
and tranquillity to the countay.—(Hear, hsar.) It
is a great delusion to suppose that at the genera;
election of 1930, Parliamentary Reform was not
made a primary object. It was the first ob-
ject. And I can speak of my own knowledge
to one instance, that of the Yorkshire election in
which I was engaged, that it was the first and greatest
object. It has been stated that the excitement
at that period arose from the French revolu-
tion. —(Hear.) But I can state to your Lordships
that I had gone through my canvass in Yorkshire before
the news of that revolution reached York. The com-
mencement of the proceedings in France might certainly
have been known, but the result was not. I assure your
Lordships there was not one subject, and I can be con-
firmed by those Noble and Honourable Friends who
accompanied me on my cans ass, that there was no one sub.
ject to which more importance was attached, than that of
Reform. I can state also, that there was no place to which
a candidate went but he met Reform. Negro slavery
was certainly one question about which I was asked, but
as regarded Reform the people were most zealous and eager.
Your Lordships are not to suppose that I am making
those observations wtthout any other view than to set
right what I take to have been a mistake respecting
the elections ; for it is very important in this respect
that it has been charged that his Majesty's Ministers have
excited persons on the subject of Reform—that it is said
to had been their doing entirely, and not the people's. My
Lords, we bring forward the question in redemption of
our pledges.—(Hear.) My Noble Friend at the head
of the Government is pledged by the opinions of all
his life to bring forward Reform. But at the same
time, we only bring forward a question at a time when the
people were not only ripe for it—(hear, hear)—hut were
bes,eching the Parliament and the Government to take it
up and bring it forward—(Cheers)—when the people
were in a state to receive it, in which they never were
before, whether you regard the intensity of their feelings
or the universality with which the subject of Reform had
been taken hold of throughout the country.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) And if I were asked to name an event which
more than all the others, and which ten thousand times
more than the revolution of the three days in Paris
had tended to render that feeling intense, and more
intense than all the others, and to spread it more widely
than even the event I should bring forward, would be that
ill-fated declaration of the Noble Duke's, that no Reform
was necessary—(lmmense cheering)—that all was so
perfect—that the representation of the country was
so complete, whether of those parts which are to
be found in schedule A or schedule B—whether
of boroughs which are corrupt from jobbing, from giving
their venal votes, or of close boroughs which may be
brought to market and sold for a price by the owner,
or made a traffic of fur himself or his family, or
the means of pocketing of money, as in spite of all
the law was referred to by my Noble Friend
opposite, may be done without the possibility of preventing
it—that that altogether composed a system so perfect that
the Noble Duke considered could not be amended—not
only that he could not make a more perfect one,
but that it was one so complete and so perfect as
to render it impossible for the Noble Duke to approach
with anything like an amendment.—(Loud cheers.) Now
there could not be a more manly, a more gallant, and, fol-
lowed up, as it was, by a strict adherence to that opinion,
a more straightforward and consistent expression
uttered by that Noble Duke. —(Hear, hear.)—
No man can blame him for it, but I think every man must
deplore it —(Hear, hear.) I deplore it not on account of
its spreading wider and wider the zeal for Parliamentary
Reform—in making the zealburn more fiercely than before,
because I think that was no disadvantage, for it was only
giving vent to feelings, then in the people, and by accelerat-
ing, by a little space of time, those feeling, which, in all
probability, would have shown themselves 'ere now—
but that was the proximating cause—the predis-
posing cause I have already adverted to—the
proximating cause of the strong, and universal
feeling which existed, and which showed itself on
every side, almost as soon as Ministers accepted office.
Now there were one or two statements made in the course
of this debate, with respect to the effects of this measure
which I think it necessary I should advert to. I am by no
means, my Lords, at this late hour, about to go
into a detail of the Bill, nor even to enter into
an examination of the difference between this measure and
the las-, muck less into a detail of the provisions of the
different clauses ; but there were one or two statements
made respecting certain particulars which it is necessaray
I should claim your Lordships indulgence while I
advert to. It I could think as some of your Lordships
have thought that such consequences would follow the
pastine of this measure, I should have that a statement
of consequences made only for the purpose of alarming
persons within or without—or, if I could believe the im-
mediate or direct tendency of the provisions of this mea-
sure would be such as some have predicted, I un-
doubtedly would do more before I by acclamation
supported the measure. But to curie at once to one of
the great points made against the provisions of this Bill,
is this—does the Bill give sufficient weight or not to
Parliamentary Representation ? The Noble Duke
thinks it goes to the entire destruction of all Parliamen-
tary institutions, and so does the No'eie and Learned Chief-
justice of the Court of King's Bench. Now, I confess, I
can see nothing of the kind in the Bill. It at all events
leaves the county representation as it was before.
Nay, I go further to say, that the Bill leaves the
county representation, according to conservative doctrine,
better than it was before. Is it proper in the first place
to say that all Parliamentary Representation is destroyed
when the Members of Counties are to be chosen precisely
in the same way in which they were before?
Further, leaseholders are allowed to vote, and even tenants
at will, by a change made in the original measure, by a
near relative of the Noble Duke on my left. Does this, I
say, give no influence to landholders ? It clearly
does—copyholders also are to have a right of vot-
ing, and the greater part of those also must be
considered as in the interest of the landed interest. But
besides all this, twenty-five counties are to have double re-
presentation, making fifty additional county Members,
which, with seven others added separately to counties of
lesser size, makes fifty-seven new Members for counties.
I cannot help thinking besides that a great number of
persons who have hitherto had votes in counties which
may lose by gaining votes in towns, will leave the county
votes, pure agricultural votes, uninfluenced by the towns.
The opponents of the Bill thought this an improvement,
and at any rate it is an alteration in the sense to
which they are favourable—(Hear, hear)—as it
goes to increase the influence of property and
particularly of landed property. But then it is said that
it is not so much with respect to the counties that pro-
perty is under-rated, as in the 101. qualification of towns.
Now great and manifold are errors which prevail upon
this subject.—( Hear, hear.) It is said that we shall
find the number of ten-pound householders greater
than that of those who inhabit houses of 201, and up•
wards. Now I admit that, generally and indeed almost
universally, we shall find the number of houses worth 20/.
and upwards smaller than those worth 101. But the
number of purely 10/. houses does not show that
the number of voters of the lowest description
will overwhelm those of the highest. You must not take
the mininum of 101. and erect it into a maximum, and
that the 10/. voters are, therefore, completely to over-
power those of 201. and upwards. You must consider,
therefore, an infinite number of houses between the value
of 10/. and 201., many of them houses of a highly respect-
able character, particularly between 15/. and 20/. Analyse
the returns of any town, and you will find that to be the
case. Take Warwick for exampl.. I find by the returns
that Warwick contains :AO voters of 10!. and upwards;
hut of these, 200 are of 201. and upwards, and out of the
remaining 300 below 20/., 100 or 150 approach
inure nearly to 20/. than they do to 10/. These and the
p anise line drawn which the argument
0/. and 201. householders, as it
10/. householders inevitably bend together, so that you
s
eta
aria as if the representation
eternallyther havee nw not slat tuhnpaoptnoe4
between
cz.
ne
them,
l
were to he thrown entirely into the hands of people with
) I believe another
great towns; but if they
little
omoruisntoaio m
mistake
eprtoopwebrhetaytth. —(Hear,
nLhoerads take their ideas of a
.
will go into those small towns which are to retain the
right of voting, they will find few even of mere 101. houses
which have not tenants of a respectable situation in life....
A day-labourer cannot afford 10/. a-year for his house.
a man who is earning ten, twelve, or at the outside four-

teen shillings a-week cannot, out of such a pittance, sp ire
:31. 10d. for house rent. The man occupying a 10/.
house is of some little substance, but a man who
occupies a House of 14/. 1./. or 161. a-year, long
and lung before you get to 201, a-year is in
the situation of a reputable shop-keeper, to
overseer in some large manufactory ; in short, a person
in every point of view respectable. But, my Lords,
do you think, and do those who hold this argu-
ment think, that there will be a perfect reverence
in point of communication and connexion and in-
fluence, between the tenants of these different houses ?
Do your Lordships imagine that the occupier
of a 201. house will strut by his poorer neighbour
who occupies a 141. house ; will have no communi-
cation with him, have no habits of ordinary intercourse
with him, no connexion with biro, no interchange
of the social civilities of lite with him, and use
none of those means of making his opinions
known, and exerting that influence which superior
wealth gives to a man in urging any of
his views ? They will have, and will use al
those means of intersourse. The richer
will in all cases have the opportunity of making his sen-
timents known, and insuring them a favourable
hearing, and the particular effect will be, that
that an influence will be exerted by these better
householders, better only in circumstances, for they are
all persons of the higest respectability, whether as regards
character, habits, or education, down even to the humblest,
but these better, I say in point of circumstances will natu-
rally exercise influence over their less wealthy brethren.
The reguiar, the wholesome, and I sly, my Lords, in
the long run, the most effectual influence is that which is
to be exercised in the course of daily habits in the inter-
course between man and man, such persons being most
likely to exercise the legitimate influence. But I confess,
my Lords, that I feel no alarm, whatever, even contem •
plating a state of things which should leave all and every
one person to exercise his own judgment without any
interest of a loftier neighbour. I am morally certain,
my Lords, that it is the interest of the poor as well of the
higher clasees, that there should be good govern-
ment in this country; that such representatives
should be chosen and sent by them to Parliament
to watch over their interests in general ; and, as I said
before in the long run, it is for the interest of the coun-
try, its prosperity and stability of all its institutions, that
they should be carefully kept up. I will not, my Lords,
enter into the inquiry whether the rich man or the poor is
most interested in a convulsion of the state. It is sufficient
for me that the poor man loses his all—the rich can do no
more. But, my Lords, the poor man is the first that suffers.
He is the first who feels the grinding effects of such a
convulsion. The humbler classes would suffer most se-
verely by such a state of things, not even excepting the
day labourer ; the artisan, the labourer in towns as well
as the agriculturist. The middle classes would also suffer
materially—those very classes, my Lords, to which you
propose to give the franchise by this Bill.—(Hear,
hear.) Why, then, my Lords, should you be afraid
of halting them. They have every interest at stake; and
if they foolishly take a false step, it will lead to their own
ruin. If even one Parliament should be returned under
the present Bill, that should be wild enough to deter-
mine on evading the constitutions of the country,
why should you not trust those men who would
first fall, and who, according to human nature,
would be the very first to avoid taking a false step?
Suppose there was even men in the country—designing
men—over whom you have no hold ; who have no stake
in the country ; who are destitute of every thing, and
are the prey of agitators, if there be such a body of men,
what argument is that in favour of the objectors of this
measure ? Why, by the present Bill you give an interest
in the representation to those who are probably con.
nected with them, and whose efforts after reclaiming
them, would have more than persons of a higher descrip-
tion. What, therefore, was better fitted for such an
object, that of reclaiming them to a sense of their duty,
than a measure like the present, which made it their own
interest to return to that duty ? I have no more doubts,
my Lords, tha❑ I have that I am at present in existence,
that the moment this Bill comes into operation, the effects
I Lave before pointed out will ensue. The question, then,
is, my Lords, what are you putting this Bill in the
place of? Why, my Lords, you are giving the 101. fran-
chise in the place of that franchise which was
before unconnected with property.—(Cheers.) By the
present Bill, my Lords, the rights of freemen are kept
to all intents and purposes. It has been said by the Noble
Duke and Baron before me, that among the very persons most
anxious for this measure were those who expected to get votes,
Was that any argument against the present measure when
it was known that in some instances 160,000 citizens were
left without the right of voting, while the Members were
returned by some 20 or 30 Members of a corporation ?
It was not only those who expected to get votes who
were advocates for this measure, but it was the in-
habitants of great towns who were for the first time to
obtain members. They say true, it is with respect
to these great towns in many instances we shall net
obtain this franchise ourselves ; but still we know
. _ _

1113 LI

that Members will be returned for this place, the
representatives of which we had before to seek elsewhere ;
and we had nobody then to take care of our interest.—
We are not 10/. householders, therefore we shall not have
the franchise ourselves ; but we shall know our Members,
and we shall be certain they will not be returned by close
boroughs. Can any man, my Lords, wonder at the
anxiety of such persons to have representatives of theirowu?
In one instance I can mention, my Lords, there is a town
with upwards of 50,000 inhabitants (Bath), where the
Members are returned by only a few individuals ; and in
the great city of Edinburgh, with upwards of 150,000 in-
habitants, the Members are returned by only 33 corpora-
tors. By meaus of the present' Bill, however, pro-
bably the whole of those 150,000 inhabitants would rote
in the representation. Their Members can only be
returned by a large constituency, and they would
therefore have a greater chance of being properly repre-
sented in Parliament than if they were returned by one or
two individual Common Councilmen.—(Cheers.) At
this late hour, my Lords, although there are many topics
to which I might allude, and should wish to pass
them by, but I must say one word upon the picture that
has been drawn of the supposed circumstances of a
Reformed Parliarnent.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble
Duke (Wellington) had stated that it would be attended
with a ereat expense, and have a revolutionary tendency.
If I thought by the present Bill anything of a revo-
lutionary tendency would take place, or that it would be like
the Long Parliament, I should be inclined to believe
something of the supposed increase of expense.
The Noble Duke, in support of his statement that the
Parliament would be an expensive one, had cited the
ca-e of the Government of France. Why, my
Lords, how was all that expense incurred in France
It was not because the budget was so much greater,
but because the army was greater ; and the Noble Duke
had stated that that arose from disturbances at Lyons.
•The reason of the expense was not to be attributed to the
Parliament of France, because it had been reformed ;
but the cause was, that the dynasty had been
changed, that there was a disputed succession, and
that these were the germs of civil war in the country, but
that there were lowering apprehensions as to the dynasty
of the country, and that by that means a large army
was necessary. That a Reformed Parliament in England
should he an expensive one, was one of the wildest things
that was ever heard of. He thought, let whatever might
be attributable to a reformed Parliament, it would
not be the excess of extravagance.—(Hear, hear.)—
A Reformed Parliament would not allow a patronage,
even to the most moderate amount, to exist merely a■ pa-
tronage, and for the purpose of patronage, and in order to
enable a Government to carry on which without that
patronage could not steadily pursue its course. It
will grant supplies enough for the public service, it
will support a Government which does its duties
to the country, and which wisely and honestly
conducts that service; but the Government under
a Reformed Parliament must stand upon its own merits,
and must not trust to the influence arising from pa-
tronage any more than it can trust to the influence
conferred by nomination boroughs. My Lords, many of
those things may be looked forward to as changes, and
attributed to the form, which, as a friend to it, I must in
justice say, cannot altogether be ascribed to it. I very be-
lieve that as Parliament is at present constituted, for years
to come, difficulty will be found all but insurmountable.
Government must be carried on according to honest,
fair, liberal policy ; and, above all, not by such a policy
as is dictated by the caprice, or even by the feelings of
the people, but such a policy as carries along with it the
opinion of the intelligent, whom I believe, in toy con•
science, to be the great and overwhelming majority of all
ranks and classes of the King's subjects, down even to
the humblest class of the people, education has made such
progress among them, that with powerful, with daily in"
and, I believe, the exulting confidence
and satisfaction, I may say the good sense, the
plain, sound, rational, consistent, clear, and
piaceful opinions and wishes of the majority of
the country. A successful policy, I say, roust carry
all this slung with it. That there should be a
restriction on the right of franchise I may ad-
mit, but it is not from any distrust I have even of
those classes to whom this Bill does not give the elective
franchise that I say it ; fur I am perfectly convinced, that
;bat as soo❑ as you remove the grivance you will restore

•
yourselves to a place 41 their affections. That grievance i►
the present state of the representation—the capital grievance
of all their complaints—that grievance once removed, arid
the slightest suspicion need not be entertained even of
those who are held in the humblest classes, to whom the
Bill will give the franchise. On this occasion, much has
been said on the consequences of rejecting this Bill. I
will not take that view of the case, because I wish
above every thing to avoid what by the leanings of
the ingennity of perversion might misconstrue into
apparent threat. But I wish only before I conclude
to beg of you not to lose this opportunity, I won't say of
regaining, but of improving your place in the affections of
your fellow-countrymen.—(Cheers.) If their confi-
dence in you, if their love and respect should unfor-
tunately have been shaken, I think that wisdom
and good feeling, and a due regard to the peace
and security of the country which every one in bound to
manifest, will incline you to lean towards that course of
conduct which is certain, not only to restore to
you that which you have lest—if you have lost
it, but to raise you higher still in the affections,
esteem, and respect of your fellow-countrymen. My
tears for an adverse event—my fears of what may by possibility
happen, I shall not say any thing about. I mean nothing further
than this, that no one event would be more to be dreaded for the
security of our establishments, or the continuance of all our in-
stitutions in the State and in the Church, than are growing
alienation of the public mind from the legislative
body of this country ; and, above all, a grow-
ing separation, a widening of any breach,
an increase of any distance from the body and bulk of
the people. My Lords, we have heard of other Bills
of Reform which are to be brought forward. I
confess I look upon these plans with all but
suspicion. The time and the occasion, the interval that
elapsed between October last and tha present
Bli!, all tend very greatly to excite a distrust of
any effect these plans are likely to produce, and I think
they who trust to these Bills would go secreta dona
ferentes, not even the smallest acceptance or gratitude for
the offer would be met with, nor could they tend to soothe
the irritation or calm the previous solicitude in which the
public mind was placed. Do not let it be said that
the anxiety for this measure of Reform has nearly gone by.
Don't let any one be so deceived. It exists as strongly and
as universally as ever it did, with only this difference,
that it has stood the severe test of repeated disappointment
and delay. It is as intense as ever, and you may rely upon
it, from one end of this country to the other, not merely
in the capital, but in all the provinces and towns
in England, Scotland and Ireland. They are waiting in
breathless suspense, and in the most painful solicitude for
the event of this night's discussion. I hope and trust—l
confidently believe--I may say I fully expect that decision
will be such as to diffuse universal joy through the coun,
try.—terminate that painful suspense, and greatly increase
the affections which the people bear towards you.
Lord LYNDHURST—My Lords, I will trouble the
House with a few observations, and from the courtesy you
have shown me on former occasions, and from the import-
ance of the subject now under consideration; I am in-
duced now to address your Lordships. A statement has
been put forth, during this debate, for the twen-
tieth time, and has been as often denied, and it now
becomes my duty again to give a denial to that statement
in the most positive terms. The statement is, that the
late Government, of which I formed a part, was upset on
account of the question of Reform. My Lords, that
statement I now again most positively deny. But since
it has again been brought before your Lordships it
becomes my duty to enter into a short detail of
the circumstances attending the breaking up of that Go-
vernment. On the Monday preceding, the day which
was appointed for the discussion of the Reform Question,
an important division took place on the Civil List, in
which Government were left in a minority. It was too
late that night for the Cabinet to meet, but early the next
morning they did so, when it was decided that they should
resign their offices, as they did not retain the confidence
of the House of Commons. That was the day on which
the Reform discussion ought to have come on. But his
Noble and Learned Friend having been requested
to postponehis motion, the reason given him was,
that it would be inconvenient for that ques-
tion to he discussed while there was actually
no Government, as Ministers then only held office
till their successors were appointed. My Noble and
Learned Friend consented to postpone his motion, when
he made that celebrated declaration that no circumstance
could affect him, so as to detain him from bringing for-
ward his motion on the 25th. The suc-
cessors to that Government were then appointed
and they retired. But, certainly, my Lords,
I have shewn that the Reform question
had nothing to do with the breaking up of that argu-
mdnt. Having, my Lords, disposed of that question, 1
will now go to the consideration of the immediate ques-
tion now before the House. The Noble Earl has stated
with fairness and candour that the principles of this
Bill are the same as the last, and, to do justice to
the Noble Earl, I must say, that he has
fully redeemed the pledge given by him at the close of the
last Session. He has introduced this Bill, which is as effi-
cient as that which was then rejected. I consider it quite
as mischievous as that to which I have alluded, and, there-
fore, I feel ti.at I am bound to give the same vote
upon it as on the last occ tsion. Every thing I
have heard, and the result of all my meditations,
and inquiries, upon the subject, have perfectly satisfied my
mind that the vote I then gave was perfectly cor-
rect. It has further been stated by my Noble and
Learned Friend that the question of Reform has
always been kept alive in this country. That proposition,
my Lords, I deny. Allusion has been made to the opinion
of the late Mr. Canning. My Lords, I know from personal
communications with that late lamented Gentleman, that
it was his opinion that the question of Parliamentary
Reform was forgotten in the cenntry. He had still
stronger grounds for his opinion. The Noble Lord who
now led the House of Commons on the part of the Govern-
ment, bad also stated that the question had been for-
gotten in the country. When told of this statement
did he deny it ? No ; he triumphantly adopted the state-
ment, and explained it by saying, " Very true, it slum-
bered, but he awoke it." My Lords, from the year
1824 to 1829, not one single petition upon the subject
of Reform was presented to either House of Par-
liament, and it was not till the people were
called upon, that they came forward with
petitions. I will ask then My Lords

if the statement of my Noble and Learned Friends, was quite
correct, that this question had been always kept alive. My Lords,
at the elections of July 1830, before the insurrection at Paris,
had reached this country, was there a single cry of Re-
form ? It was necessary, at general elections, that there
should be a popular cry—tile election had proceeded
a considerable length, while the cry was—" the
slave trade, and a free trade to China." The news
then arrived from Paris, and the cry for
Parliamentary Reform was then raised. A charge
then took place in his Majesty's Counsels, and the Noble
Earl was placed at the head of the Government. In three
months came this miserable Reform, and I appeal to every
Noble Lord in the House, if he had not astonished
every person, even those who were in expectation of a
change. The Bill was read in the Commons and read a second
by a majority of one, when the Ministers brought
down the King suddenly to this House in order to
dissolve Parliament, and then it was the cry
for Reform was effectually raised. After these facts,
which I defy any one to contradict, am I not justified in
saying that the cry for Reform has not always been kept
alive in this country, but has been raised by his Majesty's
Ministers. The Noble Earl near me, who has on this
occasion changed his ♦iews, has made a splendid speech
and though they have lost his vote, still they have that
speech remaining which I consider as one of the best
that has yet been made in favour of the Bill.

It is not to he supposed, nor indeed is it even pretended by
the Noble Earl (Harrowby), or by those Noble Lords who
act with him, that they have altered their views with re-
spect to this measure. One of them bad described
it as a tremendous evil ; and another of those Noble Lords
said it was impossible for him to consent to its passing
in its present shape, nor would he give his support
to the third reading, unless very extensive alterations
were made in it in Committee. In that respect,
therefore, those Noble Lords entertain the same
opinions as before, and differing only with me
by tit, it expression of anxiety to get rid of the
evils with which the measure was pregnant. The Noble
Earl says that the Bill as regarded the right of voting,
differs materially with the former 8,11. But whether it
does or not, it makes no difference with me for I unhesi-
tatingly assert that there will be no difference in the prac-
tical operations of the Bill.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Whether schedules A or B are to remain in the Bill is to
me wholly immaterial. The Noble Earl, however, said
that the ground of his altering his course was, that
he did not find that the course pursued last session
by their Lordships, had received the countenance of any
considerable portion of the country. On this point 1
!oust beg to join issue with the Noble Earl. The re-
sult of the observations I have been able to make is,
that it has received the countenance and support of a
great proportion of the wealth, intelligence, station,
and character of the country.—(Loud and continued
cheering.) If the Noble Earl supposes that his
vote will abate the virulence of the public Press, or that it
will pacify the Political Unions, he is mistaken. Allow me
,o appeal to the addresses that were presented to the Crown,

in groat numbers, subsequently to the vote passed in this
House, and which have been kept carefully and as
completely as possible from public observation. I will
appeal also to the former vote in the House of Commons
to show that a great portion of that body was
averse to the measure. Is it possible for any man
to say that that House of Commons supported the
measure when his Majesty's Ministers found it necessary
to get rid of that House ? I will refer, also, to that
House of Commons which has sent the presentbill up to this
House, constituted as that House is, and with all the ar-
tifies which have been used, it is sent up here by a majo•
rite of only 106 out of between 600 and 700 Members,
I am, therefore, justified in saying that the opinions
of Noble Lords opposite have not been supported
by any very strong majority of that House.
It has been said that sent up as the Bill has been,
we ought to consider it most attentively. 111) Lords, it
is our duty to give it our most careful consideration
hut the form and manner of so considering it
must depend upon the character of the Bill,
and upon the objections that might be made
to it. If I merely objected to the details of the
Bill, I would not vote aiotinst the second reading of
the Bill, but would allow it to go into Corn-
tnittee, and then if possible to correct its detail..
But what are the principles of the Bill as stated
to us by the Noble Lord (Grey) himself? He tells
us that the principles are the same as those of the
last Bill; that there are three main and leading con-
ditions which must be considered as the principles
of the Bill, viz., disfranchisement to the extent of 56
boroughs, enfrancbisements to the extent of 64 Members,
and the 101. qualification clause. It is in these
three provisions that the principles of the Bill consist.
The Noble Earl has told us more than once, on former
occasions, that if the Bill went into Committee, be
had no objections to considerable alterations; but he
accompanied that by stating, that if any alteration went
to impair the efficiency of that measure, and consequently
of the principle of the Bill, he should consider it as fatal
to the Bill itself. There I join issue with the Noble
Lord ; for these are the grounds of my objections,
and it is because I object to those principles that I make
my stand against the measure. If three provisions be
carried into effect, I care nothing about the other details
of the Bill. Those details might be rectified in Commit.
tee, but if we agree to these principles, we
commit an error which we cannot rectify.—(Hear )
why might not (continued the Noble and Learned
Lord) their Lordships canvass the provisos con-
tained in the Bill, and come to a decision
upon the debate on the second reading as
well as in Committee? Something, indeed, had been said
obscurely at the beginning of this debate, of a measure
for the purpose of carrying this Bill through their Lord.
ships' House. He did the Noble Earl at the head of the Go-
vernment but justice to say, he considered him incapa-
ble of yielding to that proposition. He knew the man-
ner in which the Noble Earl had been assailed on this
subject. Not a day had passed on which he had not
been attacked in the most virulent way for
not giving way; but the Noble Earl had too
good a sense of the constitution of the country
to give way to so rash, so wicked, and so improper an
act. He was sure no Minister in this country would
ever have had recourse to such a measure, still
less the Noble E irl. The Noble Earl had,
not intentially, but in point of fact backed the House of
Commons with respect to this question, and he could not
believe that the Noble Earl would have followed up that
packing of the House of Commons by the creation of
Peers. The effect of such a measure would certainly
have been to have weakened and destroyed their
Lordships' House, which ought to be a check and a
barrier against the House or Commons, destroying
by any measure the Constitution of the country. If
the Noble Earl could have sanctioned such a measure,
was it possible the Sovereign could have been placed in the
situation of thraldom cv.hich such a measure would have
brought him into—a situation of thraldom from which he
could only have been relieved by the repetition of
a wanton, unconstitutional act ?—(Hear, hear.) He
knew what the Noble Earl bad gone through both from
friends of his, from those around him, and from that
scourge and hard task-master, the Public Press, which had been
let loose at him in the most severe and unjustifiable manner.
He believed it never was the intention of the No-
ble Earl to resort to so rash, so desperate, and
so wicked anexpedient. He was confident no Whig
Government of any former day would ever have thought
of resorting to such a course. But if any Noble
Lord had been influenced by any apprehensions of
this nature (which he hoped was impossible)
to consent to the Bill passing into Committee, what
greater difficulty was there in pursuing that course
in the Committee, or to any subsequent stage than
with reference to the second reading? It never could be
resorted to with respect to details; but he had read
something like an argument which was on this subject,
which was this, and that if their Lordships allowed the
Bill to pass through this stage they would be considered
as adopting the provisions and the principles of the
Bill, and then that would be something like an argument
in favour of resorting to such a measure for the purpose of
giving effect to a previous vote passed on subject.
The Noble Earl had stated his opinion on the
subject of the feeling on this measure throughout the
country.—(Hear, hear.) He bad stated that a great
majority of the wealthy, thinking and popular classes of
society were in favour of the measure. He did not mean
to say that many persons of intelligence, high station and influ-
ence, did support this measure. But undoubtedly the great ma-
jority of those persons were decidedly hostile to the measure.
How then it might be asked were their Lordships to ac-
count for,the number by which the measure was supported.
It was supported by the whole of the Whig party
throughout the country. It was supported by the
whole party of the moveable revolution in this
country which had become a most extensive party.
They cordially approved of the measure, but they ap
proved of it not as the Noble and Learned Lord on
the woolsack had stated as a final measure but as a
first step. It had been said that the whole of the Di►sen-
ters supported it, but this was contrary to the fact. There
was, however, another numerous set of persons who
supported it—those persons who were dissatisfied with
their actual condition—persons who did not prosper in
the world. There was also a formidable ally in support
of this measure, namely, the periodical Press. The
great majority of the periodical Press supported the mea-
sure, they supported it fur reasons which were sufficiently
apparent. They prospered in agitation and excitement,
The carying of this Reform Bill they thought would per-
petuate agitation and excitement and in this way benfit them
There was another object they had in view—looking at
France and Belgium, the conductors of the press saw a new
road ope❑ to thier individual and personal ambition—
that they would rise in their grade of society, and that they
would extend their /power far beyond any thing which
five or six years ago even entered into their contemplation,
—(Hear, hear.) Those were the parties by whom this
Bill was supported—they who gave the appearance
of great numerical power in support of this measure.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) While he admited this combined

ask, that their Lordships' would bar their judgment
and 'yield their votes on a question of so great
power, was it to this combination of power, he would
importance.—(Hear, hear.) There was this further
consideration to which he begged to call their Lord-
ships' attention, that he was perfectly satisfied that
the mime combination of persons could be brought together
actuated by the same excitement, agitated by the same
feeling, and pursuing the same activity if led on by his Ma:' jetty's Alinisters, any set of Ministers after the passing
of this Bill to an attack on any L :
P. toe Institutions of the
country. He would ask whether it might not be made
against the peoperty of the Church—against the Hierarchy
—against the standing army,--against the Legislative—
h o
and observing what had taken place, he would ask whether
exception might not be directed to save such object.
atiu6tssrai y n
eo f
ctohme
bcionuant
ito country,persons, with some slight
y,of and watching the course of events
The extent to which the delusion on this subject had gone
was surprising and no greater instance of it would be cited
than was apparent from the conduct of the Right
Reverend Prelate (the Bishop of Chichester) in what he
had written in the public Papers, though he had no doubt
that in f hture he would be more cautiops, for he made
charges, and what sort of pharges he made against so many
Hon. and Noble Members of that House. From the
fi at time at which this measure. had been first brought
into Parliament Ministers have been challenged to state,
the necessity for bringing forward so extensive a
measure of Reform. The whole question turned on the
extent of it and the Noble and Learned Lord had never
heard any reason given for so extensive a measure. Not
only had there been no e%idence offered in support of this
ext, nsion, bus all the evilence was directly the
other way. He call%d upon their Lordahipts to recollect
t e mode in which the proposal had been merle by the
Noble and Learned Lord or, the wpolsaCir, if Reform at
is election was received. It satisfied ail Reformers, and
tat was ate unanswerable argument against
tie necessity of so extensive a measure.—(Hear.)
l'h. it Lordships were told that they ought to provide for
ir independent representation of the country in the House
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