The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-20 00:00:00

MILITIA STAFF REDUCTION BILL.

Viscount MELBOURNE moved the Order of the Day—
that the House go into Committee on the Militia Staff Reduc-
tion Bill.

The Duke of WELLINGTON was favourable to a revision
of the whole of the militia laws, rather than to a partial mea-
sure like this, and he hoped that such a revision would be pro-
moted by the Noble Viscount, so as to place the militia estab-
lishment upon an efficient system, corresponding with that
which existed of old.

The Earl of WESTMORELAND objected to this Bill
b h as to its principle and as to its enactments.
The Duke of RICHMOND entirely concurred in what
l.ad fallen from the Noble Duke who had spoken second on
this question. Such testimony coming from the Noble Duke
wa,, extremely valuable, for many of the Noble Duke's vic-
tories had been gained partly by men drafted from the mili-
tia, and from the staff now proposed to be reduced. He
he Duke of Richmond) "should not vote against the Bill,
but he undoubtedly expected that his Majesty's Ministers
would introduce some measure on the subject during the course
of next session. The present state of the militia was this :
The last ballot took place in 1831, and consequently next
year there would not be one single man's name remaining on
the books. His Majesty's Ministers ought to consider this,
for he (the Duke of Richmond) would tell them that after a
ballot great delays often occurred before the men could be
collected. He conceived that the Ministers were responsible,
and would be held responsible to Parliament and the country,
for whatever they might do on this subject.

The Duke of CUMBERLAND had never seen a finer
and more regular body of men than the militia of this country.
Daring the late war very little difference existed between
them and the line in point of discipline.
The Earl of GLENG ALL said that if this Bill passed,
the militia would be destroyed for ever. He should not op-
pose the Bill, but he hoped the Government saw the necessity
of some further measure.

Lord TEYNHAM said that it was absolutely necessary
that some plan should be adopted to preserve the militia, so
that it might be efficient, and capable of assisting the civil
power.

The Earl of WICKLOW could not reconcile sentiments
expre,sed by the Noble Viscount with the principle of the
Bill now before the House. He was sorry that the Noble
Viscount had brought forward a measure of this kind at so
late 1 period of the Session ; but he was glad to hear that
the Noble Viscount had promised to give pensions to those
who were to be discharged. He wished that that promise
had formed the substance of a provision in the Bill.
The Marquis of SALISBURY should like to receive from
the Noble Viscount at the head of the Government a declara-
tion that he would not consent to any measure which would
have a tendency to keep down the militia of the country, and
that in considering the subject it would be his object to render
the militia as efficient as possible.
Viscount ME LBOULNE could not submit exactly to this.
The Noble Marquis first said, " You say so and so," and then
said what he ( Viscount Melbourne) was to say. He should
not do anything of the sort. He had stated before the Com-
mittee that he wished the militia to be maintained, and that he
considered it still capable of amelioration and improvement.
He should endeavour to render the militia as efficient as pos-
sible, in order that its services might be rendered available
whenever the emergencies of the State should require them.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that it was desirable
that the militia should be speedily organized. What he meant
by organization was, that it should be divided into companies
and smaller divisions, and that it should have the proper allot-
ment of officers and non-commissioned officers.

The question was then put, and the House went into Com-
mittee.

The Bill was passed through the Committee, and at half-
past eight the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Auatur 19,
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Five o'clock.
CARLOW ELECTION. _ _

Mr. C. BARCLAY brought up the Report of the Com-
mittee appointed to try the merits of this Election, declaring
that Mr. Vigors and Mr. Sheriff Raphael were not duly
elected ; that Mr. Cavanagh and Mr. Bruen were duly
elected Knights of the shire ; and that neither the petition
or opposition were frivolous or vexatious.
CONSTABULARY FORCE (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord MORPETH brought up the Report of the Committee
on this Bill, which was ordered to be read a third time to-
morrow.

EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and was reported.
ORANGE SOCIETIES.

Mr. HUME gave notice that he had received a petition
from Dublin, complaining of the conduct of the Recorder of
Dublin. Seeing him in his place, be wished to say that he
would present it to-morrow at b o'clock. The Hon. Member
then, before moving that Colonel Fairman be called to the Bar,
read some of his answers to the Committee, in order to
show the grounds upon which the Committee had
acted. They found that letters of very great importance
were inserted in a book which they desired the Gallant
Colonel to produce ; but he refused, upon the ground that it
was strictly a private one, and was one which he never
produced even to the Grand Lodge, or the Grand Secretary
—it was a strictly private book, and it was never submitted
to any one. There were letters in it to Lord Kenyon
which, though upon the business of Orange Lodges, were
strictly private in his opinion. There were letters from
the Colonies in the book which he was quite willing to
extract, but he must refuse to produce the book. The
witness afterwards stated that he had made the objec-
tions for form's sake. The Committee had letters from Malta,
Gibraltar, and other places, which were 'found amongst the
papers—one from Gibraltar, stating that there was a lodge in
the Royal Sappers and Miners, private George Murray mas-
ter.--( Hear, hear.) That there was a lodge also in another
regiment, private Lewis Gordon, master. Other letters of a
similar kind were found, and one from Col. Fairman, recom-
mending a man to Mr. Mackinnon, the agent, as one
who was fit to be made a member of the lodges, which
recommendation was backed by Lord Kenyon. The war-
rants transmitted were signed by the grand master, and autho-
rised the agent to form as many lodges as he could in Malta,
Gibraltar and the lonian Isles. There was also a statement
in one of the letters of an interview with Lord Nugent, in
which he recommended the formation of what he called a
civil institution, and an Orange Lodge was even formed at
Rome.—( Loud laughter, and cries of " Order, order.")
No answers could be obtained concerning these letters ;
the Committee, therefore, wished to have the public do-
cuments, in order that they might be able to state what were the
transactions of Orange Institutions down to the present time,
and he supposed the witness would state his reasons for
refusing that information, and therefore he moved that he be
now called to the Bar.

Colonel Fairman was then called in. The witness ap-
peared to be lame, and walked with a stick up to the bar.
He bowed respectfully to the House. He is a man of small
stature, and wore a coat of the Orange Lodge uniform—
he is considered a miniature likeness of the Grand Master.
The Witness was then examined by the SPEAKER.—Do
you hold any office in the Orange Lodges in England and
Ireland ?—Yes ; of England I do.

What situation is that?—,Deputy Grand Secretary, and
Deputy Grand Treasurer.—( Laughter from the Ministerial
benches—Cries of " Order " from the Opposition.)
How long have you held that situation ?—For the last three
or four years.
Have you been examined before a Committee appointed by

this- House to inquire -into_ the- state of Orange Lodzes in
England and Ireland ?—I have for the last five days I believe.
Have you answered all the questions that have been put to
you ?—Yes, gratuitously almost.
Is there any thing that you have refused to answer ?—Not
a question that I am aware of.
Have you produced any document which was demanded ?
I have produced a great variety of documents.
Have you produced all the documents that were asked ?
All that I consider documents I have produced, or rather they
were extorted from me.

Have you produced all that were required ?—I don't know
that I have ; but I have produced them all with the greatest
pleasure—no, not with the greatest pleasure, but with great
readiness.

Is there any book that you have refused to produce ?—Not
any that I considered the Committee entitled to call for.
Is there any book required from you which you have refused
to produce ?_Yes ; there is one.
For what reason have you refused to produce it ?—Because
it is a private book. It never was before the Grand Lodge or
the Committee of the Grand Lodge ; and if they had asked for

it, I should have refused it. -
Does that Book contain any information respecting the pro-
ceedings of Orange Lodges ?—lt contains the answers to some
letters ; but they more particularly relate to private matters,
unconnected with Orange Lodges.
Does it contain any answers to communications made offi-
cially to Orange Lodges 2—A great many.
Colonel PE RC E VAL—Has any proposition been made to
you to extract such letters as related exclusively to Orange
Institutions ?—Yes.

Colonel PERCE VAL—I wish to know what was the an-
swer of the witness to such a proposition ?—Being disposed to
meet the wishes of the CoMmittee, I wanted to come to a distinct
understanding, that nothing else should be required. I re-
fused the production of the book, more upon public principle
than private principle, and least of all upon Orange grounds.
Colonel PERCE VAL —Would the Committee come to the
understanding that they were only to have copies of such
letters in the book as relate exclusively to Orange Insti-
tutions ?—The question did not go to that extent. The
idea was? that this book contained the names of persons con-
nected with the army. I said I could not, from recollection,
say whether there were any such answers contained in the
books ; but that if, upon looking over it, I found any, I would
give them up.

Col. PE RC E VAL—Upon the understanding, as you have
stated, that you would look over the book, and if there were any
letters in it relating to military lodges, you would furnish them.
Did you offer to produce all matters relating to military
lodges—that being the principle object of the inquiry ?
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to " order," but was greeted with
tremendous "yells and cries" of order- from the Tories, and
sat down.

Colonel PE RCE move that the witness do with-
draw.--(The witness accordingly withdrew.) Now the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman will perhaps read us a lecture upon
evidence.

Mr. O'CONNELL—I am quite ready; and I am sure
that no man requires it more than the Honourable and
Gallant Member. He (the witness) said that he offered
to give up all letters relating to lodges in the army ;
but the question put to him was, whether he had refused to
give up letters relating to Orange Lodges, whether in the
army or not.

Mr. HUME—I will state what the evidence is. The witness
stated the book contains copies of letters, mad the Secretary
proved he entered letters connected with the general question
of Orange Institutions. After his refusing to produce the book,
he said that as the Committee was anxious to obtain informa-
tion respecting Lodges in the Army, they would allow him
to bring extracts from the letters, he would do se on condition
that they should not ask him to produce any others. The
Committee told him that they would make no such bargain.
Matters were in this situation—he did say, that if he were
allowed to extract the letters connected with the army he
would do so ; but the Committee refused to enter into any
such agreement.—( Cheers.)
Colonel PERCE VAL—After the lecture upon evidence
which I have received, I must state that so little did I stand
in need of it that I think I could conduct an examination
in as fair, as manly, as above board, and as impartial a manner
as if I had taken the lesson which the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman has pointed out to me; and as my object is to carry on
an impartial examination, I will not take the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's lesson.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—Your not taking it is no proof that
you don't want it.—(Tremendous laughter.)
Colonel PE RC EVAL trusted that the House would do
him the justice to admit, that the question he had put was cal.
culated to extract answers which would prevent the concealing
of anything.
Mr. WARBURTON—The objection is to the words used
by the Hon. and Gallant Member, viz., " That being the
principal object of appointing the Committee."
Colonel PERCE VAL--I may have been irregular; but,
at the same time, it is true.

Mr. H UME denied this. The enquiry related to all the
Orange Institutions in Great Britain.
Mr. SHE IL—One fact has been omitted. A book was
produced, purporting to be the correspondence of the Orange
Lodges. This correspondence ceased in May, 1832, and this
hook is now called as containing a continuation of that cor-
respondence. Now I have that document here, in which
he says, with respect to the order issued for the admis-
sion of Orange Lodges in the army, " I am aware of that,
and 1 do not hear of any obstacle to prevent it. There are
great objections to it, and I would advise you to be circum-
Tet.t, for if you are not, it will tend to injure the
Society."—( Cheers.) The Honourable and Learned Member
thought, that having clearly shewn that the book refused to
be produced was a continuation of the correspondence, he was
entitled to its production.
Colonel PERCE VAL considered that the Hon. and

Learned Member had failed to show that the private book
i•efused to be produced was a continuation of the correspond-
ence.—(Cries of " Chair.")
The SPEAKER observed that the Hon. and Gallant
Member must be aware there was a great difference between
stating facts stated by the witness at the Bar, and arguing
upon these as facts.
After some observations from Mr. AGLIONBY the witness
was again called to the Bar.
Col. PE RC E VAL—Now, sir, the book which you have called
a private book, and which you have refused to furnish the
Committee with, is that a continuation of the letter book of
v%hich the Committee are in possession?.—lt certainly is not
a continuation.

Mr. O'CONNELL— Does it contain subsequent letters
to those in the book you have produced ?—Decidedly.
Are there in that book other correspondence respecting
Orange institutions addressed to members not in the army ?
Yes, there may be ; but there are not more than two or three.
And those you refuse to produce ?—Yes, upon public grounds.
Mr. B. CARTER— When you receive any letters do you
submit them to the Orange Lodge, or any of its Members ?
Never.

Would it be your duty to submit any letters you might re.
eci v e to the Committee of the Orange Lodge I—Certainly not.
Is there, then, no power that could induce you to place be-
fore the Lodge any specific letter with respect to the business
of the Lodge ?—I will not say that.
If the Committee required you to give them the answer to
any particular letter, would it not be your duty to communi-
cate it?—Certainly.
_ _

Then, would you not look to that book you have refused to
produce, for the answer ?—Certainly.
Mr. BO RTHWICK—Are you compelled to produce the
book by any law of the Orange Lodges ?—No.
Mr. CARTER—Supposing the Orange Lodge was not
satisfied with the copy, what would you say if they desired
to have it produced ; would you refuse to produce that book?
—Very poss►bly I might.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—Does the book already pro-
duced before the Committee belong to you, or to the Orange
Lodge ?—I found it in the office, and therefore consider
that it belongs to the Lodge ? I received it as an heir loon of
my office.
But the book you refuse to produce you consider as your
own private property ?—I do, certainly.
Does it contain private correspondence ?—Yes, in many in-
stances it does. I made an offer to the Committee, which I
was obliged to withdraw, as no honourable mind could act
under threats.

Mr. O'CONNELL—Do the private letters you speak of
refer to Orange Lodges ?—Yes, they do chiefly. If
not inconsistent with the rules of the House, he. wished that
his evidence upon the matters in question might be read, be-
fore another question was put to him.
Mr. HUME assured the witness that he had already read
over all the evidence relating to the matter in question.
Sir R. IN GLI S moved that the short-hand writer be called
in, to read over his notes of the evidence.

Mr. S. RICE must protest against any such proceeding.
He did so upon principle, for it was improper to read
over the evidence in the presence of the witness. Put such
questions to him as 3ou please, and if there is any discrepancy
between his evidence now and what he gave before, then put
his former answer.
Mr. AGL lON B Y thought that it would be better to put
questions to the witness at the Bar as to his refusing to pro-
duce this book, before any other steps were taken.
Colonel PE RCE VAL thought that it would be desirable
to have the evidence given before the Committee by the wit-
ness laid before the House. The time of the House would not
be wasted in waiting for this evidence, before it proceeded to
adjudicate on a matter involving the liberty of the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
that the course suggested by the Hon. Baronet was pregnant
with inconvenience. As a matter of principle, be thought
that they ought to rely upon the Report of the Committee up
stairs. He objected to reading over to the witness the evi-
dence given by him before the Committee, for the purpose
of guiding him as to the course he should pursue before the
House.

Mr. SHAW thought that they were bound, in justice, to
let the witness hare the evidence read over to him.
After a few observations from an HON. MEMBER and Mr.

JACKSON,

Lord IiONV IC K believed that the simple reason why the
witness was called to the Bar was because he refused to pro-
duce certain documents before the Committee, which were
deemed necessary to the inquiry. If he persisted in his re-
fusal, it would become the duty of the House to take such
steps as it might consider expedient to compel him to produce
the documents. _

After a few words from Mr. SKAW, Mr. O'CoNNELL, and
Mr. AGLIONBY,
Colonel PE RCP:VAL asked whether the House was pre-
pared to exercise a despotic power in endeavouring to compel
the witness against his conscientious sense of duty to produce
this book ? If he stood in the place of the witness, he would