The Sun.
London, England, 1835-06-27 00:00:00

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following will be the amount of the reserved fund arising from coed the worst predictions NI hich had been formed of it.-- `-e:fie
parishes fa- (Cheers from the Opposition.) It went beyond what bad been 14ke)
U-
.
Groto Amount of reserved fund expected from even the worst friends of the stablishedeCiveeedity9,
athring from parishes. if, but, as, as he had before said, it would nev -2- ass infO-A,'lA*, kw/
r.. ,—.—.........4.---.--, Total the Legislature.—( Loud cheering.) Oa ; 'y
tn Iloyal or E, In Lay Patron. Am
Brit of a
•' • DIOCESES.Mr. II UM E hoped that the Noble Lord would not,bea
elesiastical Pa- age, aftcr ca. Reserved
tronatte, after isting interests Fund. alarmed by the predictions of the Right Hon. Baronet:—
existing in- and indemnify. (Loud cheers.) It was absurd to say that the Church was not:
retests. ing Patrons.
--......-- ------ ---- --- to be suited to the wants of the people, for whose benefit it
X 8. d. X. 5. d. X. i. d. was established.—( Cheers.) In settling in what parishes the
i. Cashel
Emly 1,760 13 6 503 15 5 appointment of a clergyman should be suspended, it was abso-
2.
a. Waterford ... 521 0 n nil lutely necessary
4. Elsinore
1 11 2 1,603 310 The Government bad attempted to draw that line, but if dis-
5. Liinertit,k
H. Ardfert, &C.,. ...
7. Cork •• 1,862 19 9 308 IS 0 ples of the measure. But looking at the principles of the
8. Ross
O. Cloyne
la Killaloc
11. Ki1fen0ra........
12. Dublin 1,013 4 9 176 12 0
performed, he (Mr. flume) would very willingly join him
13. Kildare l,
14. }erns
925 5 5 nil in striking out that clause.—( Hear, and a laugh.) But it
15. Leighlin
lit.
e-
le. ossory
17. Tuam
nd4 o that provision, was not to give 5/. for doing nothing, but that
is etehin IX9 8 7 nil the clergymen might be encouraged to give assistance in
19. Clonfert and Kil- ' neighbouring parishes, if such assistance were required. He
rnacduagh
20. Killala and Achonry SOO 12 10 nil had no fear that the Bill would not pass that House. It
el. Armagh
Meath
33 Ardagh Pi 1 4 nil
24. Down
2 -.. Connor ssa 16 5 125 10 5 part of the sentence.) He bogged to address himself to 'the
21. Derry .... ...... I 63 3 1 nil
TC"----7s.qs it 7 --------10,118 5—7
58,076 17 2 that those of the people of England who considered Go-
- Exclusive or Glebe:. vernments as intended for the happiness of the greatest num-
In
this case, the very enumeration which I have now made, ber, not for the convenience of the few, all approved of the
and the statement of the funds paid in parishes where no duties• present measure. There was only one part which he ( Mr.
are perfo?Pned, are better than any declamation Which I could Hume) objected to, and that was that a million of the money
make in support of the statement.—( Hear.) No declama- of the people should be given up, while there were funds from
tion could come up to the bare arithmetic.—(Loud cheers.) which it might be recovered.—( Hear.) His only ()Eject in
The Noble-Lord then proceeded to say, that on the deba;:,
e rising was to protest against this surrender of the million, and
which had taken place upon the appropriation Clause, they had to correct the mistaken notion which the Right Hon. Baronet
heard a great deal said of the increase which was taking place hat; of the manner in which the Bill would be received by the
in the members of the Established Church in 'lreland. He county,..—(Hear, hear.) He felt confident that the Bill, in
( Lord Morpeth) was happy to find these statements corrobo- its spirit aeld in its principles (though it might not perhaps he
rated by the Report of the Commissioners of Public Instruc- objected to re some of its minor details) would be received by
lion. The number of the members of the Established Church every well-wisiker of the Established Church, with grati-
was on the increase—( Hear)--but the Government had not tude.—( Cheering. )
beeli inattentive to this branch of the subject, for it Was pro- Mr. SHAW could not allow this Bill to be read a first time
vided by the Bill that when it appeared to the Commissioners without entering his earaest and warmest protest against it.
of Public Instruction that the members of the Established Above all, he protested ;Oust the appropriation of pro-
Church had increased to such an extent as made the sum perty of the Church to State purposes. He thought it un-
allowed to the clergyman wholly inadequate to remunerate just, too, that the class of landholde:s who had been benefited
him for the duties which he had to perform, they were re- by Lord Stanley's Bill, should, by this .?ill, be deprived of that
(wired to submit to the Lord Lieutenant a statement of that benefit. He would tell the Noble Lord that. nothing he could
fact, and at the same time a statement of the amount which say would even make the clergy of Ireland lo -get their duty.
they considered adequate in the circumstances. If the Lord They would never consent to accept a Bill, even if it were
Lieutenant approved of the statement laid before him by the advantageous to themselves personally, if the prine;ples of it
Commissioners, it was then to be laid upon the tables of both were the subversion of the Established Church.—(l4ear. )
Houses of Parliament, and at the expiration of six months It would be a most disgraceful thing on the part of
the British
the recommendations of the Commissioners were to be car- nation if it suffered the Church Establishment in Ireland to
tied into effect, provided that Parliament did not object to it. be.destroyed.—(Cheers.) If they admitted the principle laid
—( Hear, bear.) The Bill contained, further, only some down as to the withdrawing the clergyman where there was
clauses for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of the only a certain number of Protestants in a parish, they would
Church Temporalities Bill; but as these clauses were in strict hold out a premium for the destruction of Protestants.—
accordance with the principles Of that Bill, and were only hear.) He would recommend the Noble Lord not to indulge
intended fur the purpose of carrying out those principles in chimerical plans on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) He did
with more effect, he would not trouble the House by going not make the present observations for the purpose of excite-
into details regarding them. He might, however, be per- ment.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) He
mitted to mention, that the principal provisions of these would tell the Noble Lord, however, instead of pursuing his
clauses were, that the property of the minor canons and vi- present course, at once to come forward openly and plainly
cars-choral should be vested in the Ecclesiastical Commis- with a measure for the purpose of removing the clergy.—
sioners, subject to existing interests and the discharge of actual (Hear, hear.) He would appeal to any impartial person
duties. They provided, likewise, that tithes, disappropriated whether the present measure did not hold out a premium
from dignities, in case of vicarages or other cures being suf- for the diminution of the number of Protestants in each
ficiently endowed, might be carried to the account of the Ec- parish in Ireland to the minimum proposed by the Noble
clesiastical Commissioners : and that tenants of bishops, in- Lord.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He doubted, also,
stead of paying down the foreclose-money of perpetuities, whether the Noble Lord was justified in pursuing the course
might give a mortgage at a reduced interest, payable within he had adopted by bringing in a Bill on this subject. He
a limited period.—( Hear.) As was originally provided by had always understood that the course adopted in all matters
the Church Temporalities Bill, the funds derived from these having reference to questions connected with religion or the
different sources would be placed entirely in the hands of the administration of justice, or in which the prerogatives of the
Commissioners. He had now gone through the main provi- crown were involved, was, in the first place, to resolve the
sions of the Bill which he had the honour to submit to the House into a Committee, in which resolutions were proposed
the House for its adoption. The Bill covered much ground; involving the principles of the measure intended afterwards to
it comprised many heads, and involved many most important be introduced. He would appeal to ,the Chair, whether he
principles.—( Cheers.) He, therefore, could not but expect was not correct in the view he took of the subject—that be-
that it would be assailed in many ways, and from many fore leave was moved for to introduce a Bill like that now
quarters—(Loud cheers from the Opposition)—but he (Lord proposed, the House resolved itself into a Committee on the
Morpeth) was fully convinced that the final settlement of the subject.—( Hear.) He did not suggest this with a view of
great question of tithes was as indispensable to the clergy of delaying the subject. He had no intention of meeting the
Ireland themselves—(loud cheers)—as he believed that an al- question with delay ; lie intended to pursue a fair course of
tered state of the ecclesiastical revenue of Ireland was called opposition to it; but still he thought that they should adopt
for, for the security of the Church Establishment itself.—( Loud that course generally acted upon in measures of this nature.
cheers.) But while this Bill resolutely and boldly main- Lord, MORPETH observed that he felt justified in the
tained the great principle of the appropriation of the course he bud pursued, by the precedents furnished him by
surplus funds of the Church to the moral and religious edu- the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge)
cation of the people in general, and of whatever persuasion— with roference to the Irish Tithe Bill, and also to the course
(Cheers)—while it absolutely forbade all sinecures and ab- adopted when the English Tithe Bill was laid on the table.
senteeism, and acted upon the principle that no one should be Mr. WALKER felt bound, as a Protestant landlord, to pro-
paid who 'did not work, he conscientiously believed that many test against the language used by the Right Hon. Member
of its provisions would tend to give to the Protestants of Ire- for the University of Dublin. He was satisfied that a Bill of
land, and the Established Church of which they were mem- this kind would produce security to the Irish Church instead
bers, sources of permanence and strength, which, for various of destruction to it, as had been prophesied by the Right
reasons, had long been dried up ; and it might not be fanciful Hon. Gentleman, and at the same time would satisfy the just
to hope, that in parishes where hitherto the presence, or desires of the people of keland.—( Hear, hear.) It would
even the existence, of the pastor was not known, except protect the Protestant clergy, and make the Church more
when occasionally heard of as an absentee or pluralist, the Christian than it was at present.--(Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen
soundof the church-going bell would still be heard.—( Cheers.) opposite arrogated to themselves the claim of representing
But desirable and valuable as any such results from the mea- the Irish Protestant Church, but those sitting with him were
sure would be, he held that they should be considered as in- just as much attached to the Church as tkose Hon. Members,
considerable and of little moment, when compared with the but certainly they did not pretend to represehnt the factious
main object of the measure, which was that of calling upon the Orangemen of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) If tat measure, or
country to ratify and maintain the present Church Establish- one of equal efficiency, were postponed, the collection of tithes
meet in Ireland.—(Loud cheering.) In order that that de- in Ireland as well as the Church itself would be gone for
sirable object should be attained, it was necessary that they ever.—( Hear, hear.) It had been stated that the plan on
should give the Establishment itself such a decent conformity which the Noble Lord proceeded was altogether inapplicable
with the extent of the duties to be performed by it, as would to the state of Ireland, but he (Mr. Walker) knew a case in
secure to it the affectionate esteem of those who conformed to his own neighbourhood in which the clergyman of one parish
it, and the respectful forbearance of those who conscientiously received the sum of 4/. a year (as we understood the Hon.
dissented from it, instead of the indignant reproval and angry Gentleman) for doing duty in the next parish in which there
resistance to which it was at present exposed, and met with.— was no church. The Hon. Member made some further ob-
( Loud cheering.) He could say in his conscience; that if he servations which were not distinctly heard in the gallery, in
considered that the tendency of the measure were contrary to consequence of the impatience of the House.
the principles of pure and true religion, no one would more Lord STANLEY said, that he would not dedetain the
sincerely desire its failure—( Cheers)—but if, as he sincerely House more than a single Moment,
but he felt boun te make
believed, the tendency of the Bill would be to promote and one or two observations. He rose in the first place to express
extend true religion, he trusted that nothing would occur to a hope, es there was not the slightest inclination to oppose the
prevent its passing into a law.--(Cheers.) The Noble Lord introduction of the Bill, that the House would not go into a
concluded by moving " For leave to bring in a Bill for the discussion on any of the details of it until it was laid on the
commutation of tithes, and the promotion of the moral and re- table. He would, however, at the proper time explain the
ligious education of the people of Ireland."—(The cheering, opinions which his Noble Friend knew that he entertained on
after the Noble Lord sat down, continued for several minutes.) the subject of appropriation, as well as on other points involved
The motion having been read from the Chair, in this measure. As to the subject of the appropriation of the
Mr. HUM E then rose and begged to ask the Noble Lord revenues of the Church, lie need not tell his Noble Friend
whether there was any provision made in this Bill for the alte- that be should give it his constant opposition. With reference
ration or reduction of the Bishops and Chapters in Ireland? to the measure then proposed to be introduced by his Noble
Lord MOR PET El was understood to say, that the object of Friend, he could not help saying that in boldness of legisla-
! this Bill was different from the subject alluded to by the Hon. tion his Noble Friend, and those who sat with him, had sur.
Member, and did not contain any such provisions. passed his (Lord Stanley's) most sanguine expectations.—
: Sir HENRY HA RD ING E rose and said, that at that late ( Hear, hear, hear.) He protested against the principle of
hour of the night he thought he should best consult the wishes appropriation involved in the plan of his Noble Friend, as well
t of the House, if, upon this occasion, he followed the example of as against the details connected with it in his measure ; and
7 the Noble Secretary for the Home Department when the also with doing away with service in parishes in which there
; tithe question was lately brought forward by him ( Sir H. were not a certain number of attendants of the Church, as
Hardinge.) The Noble Lord then said that he thought the well as destroying- those commutations for tithes which had
best course to follow was, to agree to the resolution and allow existed for sevend years, and which could not be done with-
- the Bill to be introduced; and further said, that be did not out breaches of contracts.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He rose,
- mean, in not opposing the resolution, in any way to pledge him- however, chiefly for the
.purpose of asking two or three
1 self to agree to the principles of the measure to be introduced. questions of his Noble Fieend with reference to the collection
a He ( Sir H. Hardinge) therefore did not intend (nor did these of the revenues of the clergy. In the first place, whether,
:a who thought with him) to give any opposition to the bringing in the sum appropriated for the payment of the clergy, the
a in of the present Bill—(Hear)--but he distinctly reserved to State would he made liable, without deduction, for any losses
I himself the liberty of opposing it on some future occasion, both that might arise in collection ?
a in its principle and its details.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Lord MORPETH replied that it would.
t Above all, he wished distinctly to state that he should oppose Lord STANLEY observed, that the next question he had
a the principles of the appropriation clause by which the property to ask had reference to the benefit said to be conferred on the
- of the Church was to be applied to State purposes.—(Loud landlords for taking upon themselves the collection of tithe.
1 cheers from the Opposition.) His objections to that appro- They had given a premium to the landlord for the collection
' priation were as strong as ever—( Cheers)—and no party feeling of tidies, and he wished to know how, in cases of difficulty, the
; would ever induce him to agree to a measure which lie believed collection was to be enforced ? Ha knew well the practical
g to be full of mischief and danger.—( Cheers.) He could not difficulties that would attend a measure of this kind, and there-
g help saying that the measure, as it appeared from the statement fore was anxious to have a clear and distinct answer from his
s of the Noble Lord, was infinitely worse than lie could have cup- Noble Friend. Was it intended to enforce the payment from
I, posed would have been brought forward by any Government. the landlord at the head of the estate, and give him the right
a- —(Cheers from the Opposition. It was perfectly true, as of recovering or taking it from the landlord immediately above
of had been said by the Noble Lord, that his plan would meet the person occupying the property, and so ascending ? This
n with many enemies.—( Cheers.) It was true, too, as the Noble question he put, as itawas a natter of very great importance to
Lord had remarked; that the measure had many heads, and he the persons between the landlord and the occupying tenant,
- - ( Sir H. Hardinge) would add, that though it had many and as their interests would be deeply affected by it. The
heads it was calculated to please only one tail.—( Loud cheers third question he had to put regarded the parishes which would
and laughter from the Opposition.) He believed, and he had be directly operated upon by this measure. His Noble Friend
e.: no doubt that the same thing was anticipated by the Noble had stated that 810 parishes would come within elle operation
Is himself, that this Bill would never pass this House—( Cheers of this Bill ; for it appeared if there were not fifty Protestants
from the Opposition) ; and, at any rate, he wae quite sure in a parish, the Clergyman would be deprived of his income.
- it would never become an Act of the Legislature.__-( Loud The Noble Lord bad said parishes, and not benefices ; he did
cheers from the some quarter.) He was aware that id seeing not know whether any distinction would arise under his
this he was laying himself open to censure, as the °the: Noble Friend's Bill. Certainly he conceived great difficulty
House haearejectea the Bill last year ; but he would appeal ;eight arise, and, above all, as he conceived the operation to
to the House whether the rejection of that Bill be the House be ,compulsory. A case might, and probably would arise, its
of Lords was not justified by the statement of the Noble Lord which. a Clergyman might be in possession of three livings,
himself. By the Bill of last year the landlord was allowed —one, sae instanced of great extent, containing many Pro-
ed Church, w in adoining
a bonus of 40/. per cent., while, by the present Bill, be was testants, who
at ten
bautthocour the
nesp.aratTivielelyse fhilee;avrishPreost,the
formedestan into
tsj and a
only to he allowed a bonus of 30/. per cent. He maintained parishes there 11.'re
therefore, that if any justification were required for the rejec- large number of 5.
nt income for the clergyman from the
tion for the Bill of last year, that justification was to be found unions, fu: nished a dm,:
in the statement of the Noble Lord himself.—( Hear, hear.) payment of tithes ; but it, appeared to him, as far as he un-
He did not intend to follow the Noble Lord through the diffe- eetetood the measure of hitalloble Friend, that he..had made
rent parts of his elaborate statement, but he could not avoid no provision for these unions, lant the charge of maintaining
expressing a hope that the Noble Lord would omit that mise_ the clergyman would be thrown oil ;he first parish. He wished
cable arrangement by which the clergymen were to receive to have this point explained; for if ::!-Ie principle was acted
the pittance of 5/. for doing duty in a neighbouring parish, upon, many Protestant clergymen would tea\d;,e_pdrtiovedbeoafraanlaregxe.
where there were few or no Protestants. He hoped that the portion of their income. tie should be g
respect for the Church, which the Noble Lord had said he planation on this point from his Noble Friend. for it appeared
venerated, would induce him to relieve that Church from the to him, if lie understood the subject, that it Weeld lead to
ridicule of their granting a neighbouring clergyman 5.?. a year, great injustice. The last point he had to allude to had re-
fer doing the duty_ei a parish.--( Cheers.) He ( Sir Henry ference to the produce derived from the 840 parishes which his
Hardinge) had all the objection now to the appropriation. Noble Friend had proposed to deprive of clergymen. If he
clause which he ever had ; but when he heard the Noble understood his Noble Friend correctly, the whole of the pro.
e- Lord say, that where the number of Protestants resident in a duce derived from those parishes would be the
,miserable ~...mt
I parish was below fifty, the clergyman in that parish would be of 58,000/.—( Hear, hear, hear): at least that
vas the amount
nt, discontinued, he could not help stating that he thought that that he understood his Nobha Friend to state ; but he did not
:13. arithmetical proportion and settlement full of danger.—( Loud believe that his Noble Friend for so small a pittance would
;re cheers.) Would the Noble Lord permit him to ask, if in proceed to act on so hazardous a principle —(Hear, hee..)
u.:- a case where the population was reduced by emigration— He should not go into the eventuation of the Bill until he
Til: (Hear, hear)—by removal—( Hear, hear)—by assassination— had seen the whole of its details, but he felt bound to say that
sat (Loud cheers)—or any other cause of the same nature, to the he had never seen so violent a measure introduced in to mild
ant number of forty-nine Protestants, would the appointment of a a manner.—(llear, hear.) The speech of his Noble Friend
;-.) clergyman in such parish be on that account suspended. was remarkable for its calmness. lie wished the subject of
ed 1 Lord MORPETH said that the case alluded to by the 1 the measure was as grateful to his mind as was the mild. speech
3e- Right Hon. Baronet could not arise, as it was already settled ,of his Noble Friend in introducing it.
le- ,by the Report of the Commissioners what parishes would I Lord MO It PETH said he would very briefly answer the
ion come under the operation of the Bill. I questions put to him by his Honourable Friend. In -answer
in- • Sir HENRY HARDINGE would ask, then, where was to the first question, he 'did not propose a revision of all agree'.
les, the justice of the arrangement if it were entirely retrospective? vents with reference to the commutation of tithes, but still
per He would say more upon the subject at a proper season, but some cf them were open to revision. lie believed he would
.us- not till the. Bill itself appeared. The Bill was, however, now secure the object they had in view without involvieg himself
the. known, frog) the statement made by the Noble Lord, to ex. in any of the difficulties anticipated by his Noble Friend. Lit