The Sun.
London, England, 1835-09-05 00:00:00

tifted unikr the circumstances in insisting upon their amend-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) Flow these Noble Lords would act he
(Lord Lyndhurst) did not know, but he had no doubt that it
would be prudently. He must judge for himself, and, in
doing so, he felt bound to insist upon their Lordships' amend-
ment, because he thought it founded upon justice. He consi-
dered this as by far the most important amendment made by
their Lordships, and, if carried, he thought that there was no
danger to be apprehended from the working of this Bill. If,
however, the Bill was carried as it at present stood, notwith-
standing the amendments made by their Lordships, he could
not conceal that he apprehended danger from it. There was
one other point, and that one was very material, to which he
wished to allude. He never could agree that the prerogative
of his Majesty to choose his own magistrates should be taken
from the Crown, or delegated by Act of Parliament to any
other parties. He had heard no reasoning, he had heard no
arguments, which justified this enactment. It was not enough
to say that his Majesty's advisers could not have local know-
ledge, and, therefore, were not capable of making a proper
choice. There were other parties to whom application on this
point could be made. In the counties they might refer to the
Lord Lieutenant, and in boroughs to the mayor, but he could
not consent that the prerogative of the King should be abo-
lished, and that, by Act of Parliament, his Majesty should
not have the power to appoint a single magistrate who had
not been first nominated by these town-councils.—( Hear. )
This was a point to which he could never be induced to agree.
He owed it not only to his own sense of duty, but he owed it
to his Sovereign, that he should stand up for his prerogative.
It was material that that prerogative should be supported, es-
pecially at the present time.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to
the division of towns into wards, that was a point upon which
he would not say anything, as it would become the subject of
discussion hereafter. There was one other point, and one
only, to which he would beg to direct their Lordships atten-
tion, namely, that which related to the town-clerks. It was
their intention to modify the proposition formerly agreed to
by their Lordships, and he hoped that the other House would
meet their Lordships, and endeavour to fix some plan for the
settlement of this part of the question. The town-clerks were
competent, able, and intelligent. Why, then, should they
deprived of their offices? Why should they be removed from
those duties for which they were so well qualified ? Why not
allow them to afford those facilities for the administration of
public business to the new Corporations which they had af-
forded to the old ? He was convinced that their Lordships
would not sanction that any injustice should be done to those
person„. The town-clerks considered that they had their
offices substantially for life, and all that he proposed that they
should ask the House of Commons to do was, that they
should not violate property. These were the greatest points
upon which they had differed with the other House; and, with
the exception of that which was the property and prerogative
of the Crown, lie might say that none of them was great.
These were all the observations he had to make upon the sub-
ject under their Lordship's consideration. He would now beg
leave to say a few words in regard to himself. Their Lord-
ships were aware how he had been assailed—( Hear, hear)—
and personally attacked, both within the walls of Parliament
and without, as to the course whiCh lie had thonght it his duty
to take in regard to the Bill under their Lordship's considera-
tion. He begged to be allowed to say that he should not have
been ashamed to have been a volunteer in the part which he
took. But the truth was that he was not a volunteer.—( Hear,
hear.) He had acted in connection and in unison with other
Noble Lords, who were better able to have taken care of the
Bill than he was. But in consequence of the nature of the
inquiry he had been requested to take the management of the
Bill. He yielded to that request, and, having yielded, he had
discharged his duty to the best of his abilities.—( Cheers. )
He had been charged with having private views and indirect
objects of ambition in the opposition \Ouch he gave -to the
Bill as brought from the other House. All that he could say
was this, that having twice passed that chair, his utmost ambi-
tion was satisfied. Whatever ambitious views he might have
felt in his earlier life, they had been completely gratified.
His ambition had been satisfied, and lie had no further
wishes.—( Loud cheers.)
Lord BROUGHAM then rose, but his first one or two
sentences were not distinctly heard. He was understood to
say that he did riot wish to interfere with this effect of the
temperate, excellent, and • talented speech of his Noble and
Learned Friend who had just sat down ; but in consequence
of the part which he had taken in the discussions upon the
Bill, he considered it his duty shortly to state the views which
he took of the subject; nor would he feel that he would be
doing his duty to the public if he abstained from stating either
his satisfaction with the measure as amended by his Noble and
Learned Friend; or if he could not state satisfaction, that he
should at all events state in what light he viewed the altera-
tions made by the other House upon the Bill, and their refu-
sal to adopt a portion of their Lordship's alterations. With
regard to the rights of freemen, he need not go back to re-
mind their Lordships of the great importance which he at-
tached to that part of the original Bill. He had oposed the
adoption of the alteration when proposed by his Noble Friend,
and had explained why he considered it a great and marring
deterioration of the measure.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble
and Learned Friend still kept to his opinion that the Bill
had been improved by the alteration made in it. He (Lord
Brougham) on the contrary, thought the Bill very much bet-
ter before the alteration, and the success of his Noble and
Learned Friend's alteration had therefore given him no man-
ner of satisfaction. There was the less reason for going
minutely into his opinions upon this subject, because, ac-
cording to the forms of their Lordships' House, he had had
an opportunity of recording the reasons upon the journals of
the House why he thought that the alterations made upon
the Bill, as brought to them originally, were for the worse;
but he could not help saying that he lamented that some of
them had been adopted by the House of Commons. The
next point was as to the qualification ; and here he would
say, that he thought the House of Commons had done well,
and also that their Lordships would do well to accede to
the amendments made upon their Lordships' amendments.
He had objected to the principle of the qualification moved
by his Noble Friend, that only one-sixth of the highest rate-
payers should be admitted into the council; but, as soon as
another Noble Friend, whom he did not then see in his place
(Lord Devon) had moved as an alteration, that all members
of the Council should have either the qualification proposed
by his Noble and Learned Friend, or a qualification of
1,0001. in large, and 5001. in small boroughs, he was aware
that there was an end to the operation of the bad, unprece-
dented, and pernicious principle which his Noble and Learned
Friend wished to adopt. It was like having a chink and
two large folding doors in one wall. The chink was diffi-
cult to pass through, but the folding-doors were easy enough.
The chink was, however, of little consequence, either one way
or the other, when the folding-doors were opened. He
lamented greatly the other qualification which had been adopted
by the House of Commons. He thought that that qualification
made the doors much narrower than they were when the Bill
left their Lordships' House. He did not know that it was the
intention, but the effect of the adoption of that principle of
qualification was to raise the qualification necessary for the
member of the council; and it was more difficult now to enter
the council-room than even if the qualification adopted by their
Lordships had been retained. It, however, signified less, as
there was the alternative of the other qualification. But there
was another alteration to which he had still stronger objections.
He considered it a most unfortunate alteration which required
from the members a continuous qualification. It would lead
to endless litigation; and there was nothing in the Bill which
could afford a remedy for the evil.
Lord L YND H UR ST—You advocated it.
Lord BROUGHAM said lie had enforced it against the
aldermen, but not against the councilmen : but now it was pro-
posed to enforce it against the councilmen. He regretted ex-
ceedingly that this clause had been introduced; and he consi-
dered that it would have been much better if the Bill had been
left as his Noble and Learned Friend had left it. He now
came to the point with respect to licensing. His Noble Friend
had stated that he felt grateful that the House of Commons
had not touched that point. It was not for him to regret that
the House of Commons had agreed to any amendment made
by their Lordships, but it was not quite correct in his Lord-
ship to say that the omission of that clause had been feebly sup-
ported in their Lordships' House.
Lord LYNDHURST—Comparatively.

Lord BROUGHAM said it had perhaps not been sup-
ported so strongly as some other points, but still it was opposed.
—( Hear, hear.) They had tried the placing of this power in
the hands of the magistrates and corporations, but without
success. It was always liable to the production of endless dis-
pute, and endless abuse.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend
and he had entirely the same opinion upon the subject. We
took the plain course of saying, let those who are interested
in the peace of the town be the judges whether it was fit that
the license should be granted. If they thought the conduct of
the person wanting the license, and of those going to the
house, was such as was approved of, if in short, the feeling of
the neighbourhood was that the license should be renewed,
then it should be done. If not, the person wanting it would
be considered as condemned by his peers.—( Hear, hear.)
This was the argument in favour of the original clause, and he
was rather sorry that the alteration which was no amendment
had been acceded to. With regard to charities he heartily
rejoiced that no amendment had been made in that respect
upon their Lordship's amendment. It was not quite fair in
his Noble Friend, however, to treat that part of the original
Bill as he had done. His Noble and Learned Friend ought
to remember that it was never intended that this Bill should
remain as it then stood, as regarded charities : for he (Lord
Brougham) had stated that he would have been obliged to ob-
ject to these clauses, and that it was his intention to bring in
another Bill which should pass pari passu with this measare.
With regard to the Church patronage, he was not one who
thought that his Noble Friend's alterations were of any
great consequence to the Dissenter, further than as they
tended to throw a stigma upon that body, and because it was
contrary to the principles of the Act which repealed the Test
and Corporation Acts—an Act which repealed those religious
differences which existed in no other part of the world but
this. It had been said by a Right Rev. Prelate, in the course
of the debate upon that subject, that he would demolish the
argument of his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonial
Department; but in the course of that demolition, the Right
Rev. Prelate had raised doubts in his (Lord Brougham's)
mind which he had not previously thought of ; for the Right
Rev. Prelate had put the question in the odious light, that the
Dissenters would probably put improper persons into the
Church, for the purpose of injuring the Established Church.
This was so odious a light to put the question in, that it had
given him an increased repugnance to the clause. He was
glad that the House of Commons had altered the clause, as
he preferred the sale of the advowsons ; but he strongly ob-
jected to the addition which had been made, of giving to
the diocesan the intermediate presentations.—( Hear. ) The
House of Commons had thought otherwise; but he still main-
tained that it was unfortunate it had been adopted. The next
question was that regarding the aldermen for life. He certainly
preferred having the aldermen for six years to having them