The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-04 00:00:00

FOREIGN RELATIONS.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY—I confess I see
with much pleasure the Noble Earl at the head of his
Majesty's Government in his place, because I want to put
to him one or two questions relative to the state of our
foreign policy, to which, my Lords, my attention hash-en
more particularly called by perceiving that a pe c 'al mis-
sion is about to he sent from this country to the Court of
St. Petersburgh.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot hut think,
my Lords, that an embassy on which so high a per-
sonage as that of the Lord Privy Seal has been sent
must he of the greatest importance.—(H• ar, hear.) I
see that Thomas Duncombe, Esq., is appointed secre-
tary to the embassy, and perhaps, when the facts are
fully known, we shall find that more of the Now,
Earl's friends and relations are to accompany the
mission. But on that point I know it is not proper
for me to inquire, though our curiosity may be a little
excited by the circumstance th .t some of the Noble
Earl's friends, in their over-zeal for Reform, were carried
in the other House, a few evenings since, to the length of
applying the strongest and most opprobrious epithets of
an illustrious Monarch with who .. we are in a state of
alliance.—( Hear.) I cannot help regretting, my Lords,
that such language was indulged in, and that so little re-
collection exists in the other House of past transactions, in
which the illustrious brother of the Monarch now on the
throne of the Russias had so many claims on our admira
titan and esteem.—(Hear, bear.) I hope, there ore, the
Noble Lord has not gone out to add to the irritation that
language must produce, but rather that he is instructed to
soften it down, and to do away with the unfavourable im-
pression it must create. Ido not expect, however, that
the Noble Earl will inform us of the nature and objects of
the expedition; but I beg leave to remark to him that we
are arrived at nearly the close of the session, and that we
have not had from him, as yet, any explanaion of the
state of our foreign relations, which are, in my opinion,
in a most difficult situation—in a situation almost as diffi-
cult of arrangement as the Reform Bill introduced by the
Noble Earl.—(Hear, hear.) lam justified in thus speak
ing of our foreign relations at present, for when I look
at 'he continued possession of Algiers by the French, at
the continued possession of Ancona by the same Power,
and the protracted and almost interminable train of the
negotiations between Holland and Belgium, I cannot call
to my mind a period when our foreign position was more
complicated and perplexed.—(Hear.) We have been for
nearly two years engaged in the Belgian and Dutch nego-
tiation, without having brought it to close ; and the
question I wish to put to the Noble Earl is for the
purpose of ascertaining whit the five Powers have
lately done—whether the five Powers have come to
any arrangement on th.e subject, and whether the
ratification has been yet received ? I also wish to
ask if Holland is the only Power that has not yet acqui
eked? and whether, if it has, there is any prolmbility of
the conaent of the King of the Dutch being speedily ob-
tained ?....-(He ir; hear.) I put these questions because I
cannot help thinkug that the Eintiassy to the Court cf
St. Peiershurgh arises out ul fresh difficulties in bringing
the arrangement to a conclusion, and I feel it would be
right tl satisfy the public wind on the subject.—(Hear.)
I hope, therefore: the Noble Earl will give roe some satis-
faction tin these points ; particularly with regard to Bel-
gium, on which question I think the peace of Europe de-
pend4._(Efear.) I have put these questions oq this occa-
casion, but I hope, before the end of the Session, some
N-chle Lord better acquainted with the subject than myself
wail! call the notice of the House to the whole foreign policy
the country.—(Hear.) Certainly, if no one else thinks
proper to di. to, I wilt ; and, so far as Holland is con-
cerhed, I declare that I, sh ill be happy to take any oppor-
tunity of expressing the high ;inairation which I feel at
the
gal anZry, magianaity, and manl.pe;;t syhich the King
of Holland or,r;wn in resisting the demands of the 4ve
PO W 4! 9.

Earl GREY—My Lords, I should think the Noble
Marquess must be aware that I cannot answer all the
questions he has put. Tha Noble Marquess has expressed
a hope that I should .ford Irina satisfaction, but, my
Lords, I despair of doing eo.-s-(Hear, bear.) It is not
the first time the Noble Lord lass put questions to
and numerous as those occasions have been, I feel that I
nave never been able t.c answer him to my own satiafac.
doe ;a to his.—(Hear, heat.) The Noble Marquess first
adverts ro s mission, on which a nob:: relation of mine is
ab •ut to depart, 4.414 says he will not inquire i;;;to the se-
cret of that embassy...4)4lt scarcely has he said so when he
goes on to comment op the reasons which appeared to, him
to he so important as to call for the mistii.oa. The Noble
Marquess may indulge his suppositions as he pleases, rut it
must be evident to your Lordships and to him, that I can
opt say anything on the subject si present ; and, with
that reccsrk, I must dismiss that part of the
Lord's ohteryatinns. Tne Noble Marquess then
proceeds to eonameut Op language made use of in the other
House, on a la& occasion; but must snbmit to your
Lo,rtiships' diecretion that we are not ruetliere to discuss.
the terra. n which a debate should take place in the House
of Commons. anti therefore, I have nothing to do with it.
Still I am not sorry the iit.hle Lord has mentioned the cir-
cumat&n.ee, as it gives me the opposttinity of saying that,
whatever may he the feelings of any persons Ott rat of
foreign policy, th-re is a respect due to foreign Powers
with whom we are in alliance, iihich should not be lost
sight of in dis4ussions in either House of Patliam nt.—
(Hear.)—Nly Lords, f do deprecate all language of that
sort, and I think it equally loconsistent with the dignity of
Parliament aid the interests of the country.—( Hear, hear.)
It creates difficulties where none exists, and no men can
more cie,:ply lament that language calculated to give offence
to foreign Powers has been used that-. I do.--(hear, hear,
hear.) Now, my Lords, with regard to the state of the
negotiations between flatland and Bel2ium, I can only say
that I agree with the Noble Marquess, when he states.tha
so lung as the restion remains open there wtil he danger
t., the preservation nf the lease of Europe.—(Hear.) I
have been of that opinion ainpo these negotiations were
opened, and I have spared no exer,aQui t.o bring them to a
satisfactory termination, by which the interest. of all con-
cerned might be peomtged, and the general tranquillity of
Europe Is cured.—Olear, hear.) My Lords, I have to
regret that three negotiations are not yet brought to a con
elusion. I am desirous for the moment toarrive when
they shall be happily eettlid y but I cannot enter into the
subject more partieuiarly at present, and the Noble Mar-
quess must be gon,tent with these observation", in reply to
the 9,uestions he has put.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Alarqus has thought proper co speak in great admiration
of tie ctaattuct of the ,King of litillatati, I do not wish
to say one word oa the subject ; hut j cannot help re-
marking that It is a little e;traordinary that the Noble
Lord, not knowing all that has passed in the course of

the negotiations, has taken upon himself to state that the
adverse party—if the King of Holland is to be consi-
dered the adverse party, which I do not now pretend to
determine—to those Powers, of whom Great Britain
is one, has been always in the right, and that the
five Powers, Great Britai❑ among them, has been always
in the wrong.—( Hear, hear ) Whether that resistance
be justifiable or not remains yet to be proved ; but it is
rather strange that the approbation of the Noble Marquis
should alone be given to that course which his own Go-
vernment has been hostile to.—(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON, who was imperfectly
heard at the bar, was understood to say that, with respect
to the conduct of the Emperor of Russia, he regretted the
Noble Earl had not given some fuller explanation, in
order that the absurdity of charges brought against th rt
illustrious Monarch should be exposed. For his own
part, he must pronounce his entire conviction that his
Imperial Majesty had performed every article of the treaty
to which he was hound, as far as he (the Duke of Wel.
liogton) was able to judge.—(Fif.ar.)
THE GRAVESEND PIER.

The Earl of DARNLEY, in bringing up the report of
the Committee on the Gravesend Pier Bill, went into
some details which were not understood at the bar,
and in which he commented on the conduct of
those Peers who had voted in the Committee without hav-
ing heard the evidence.
Lord WYNFORD thought it was quite sufficient that
every Member of a Committee should make himself mas-
ter of the subject to enable him to take a part, particularly
when an attempt was made, as in this instance, by re-
Pe ted adjournments, to bear down a set of poor people,
whose interests would be destroyed by the Bill. It was
said that, it the Bill did not pass Gravesend would be
ruined. Even if it were to he injured he should be better
pleased than if tie 13.11 passed.
The Marquess of SALISBURY had not voted until he
was in complete possession of the facts of the case.
Lord BEXLEY had been guided in giving his vote on
the Gravesend Pier Bill from a thorough conviction, on
his part, that the preamble had not been proved before the
Committ-e.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE hoped that the House would

not consent to throw any slur nn the maj.irity in the Corn-
mitre- on this Bill who were opposed to it. The evidence
in the case of Gravesend Pier Bill had been printed. and
he was of opinion that any N.ble Lord who made himself
master of that evidence was well entitled to vote as any
other, and he thought that great good was oftea done by
such vo•ee.

Viscount STRANGFORD went to Gravesend for the
express purpose of ascertaining the tacts of the case nefore
he gave his vote nn the Pier Bill, and for the purpose of
judging from what he there saw of the cause of so great a
difference in opinion on the Bill. Having taken that
troule he certainly consideicd himself as well entitled to
give his vo e as any N ,ble Lord who had stayed at home
at ease. He certainly would admit that the pier would be
a great 4 onvenience to the steam-bo p.ssengers, and
that a large proportion of the inhabitants of Gravesend
were favou, able to the Bill ; but it was admitted on all
hands that the convenience could only he purchased by
the entire ruin of the waterinen, and he must say he did
net feel prepared, when called upon to give his vote on
the Bill, to pass a measure which would sentence to de-
struction so large a p irtion of the industrious classes or

-
Gravesend. -
The Earl of DARNLEY admitted that the Noble Vis-
count had repre-entrd t e came of the watermen of Graves-
end very fairly, as constituting the main feature of the ob-
jection to the Pier Bill : he was not disposed to press for
the recommittal of the Bill. having simply discharged his
duty as Chairman of the Committee by bringing up the
replirt.

SCOTCH GENERAL ASSEMBLY PETITION.
The Earl of BELHAVEN rose to present the petition
to which he bad referred during the course of lamt week
as being in pissession of, from the General Assetnhly of
the Kirk of Scotland. wherein the body state their appro.
val of the national plan of education adopted by the Go-
vernment for the instruction, as well religious as other-
wise, of the poorer classes of Ireland, both Protestants
and Carlinlies.

The Archbishop of ARMAGH observed that, if he un-
derstood the petition rightly, the General Assembly of the
Kirk of Scotland approved of the plan of education for
Ireland, because it was understood by that Assembly to
be identical with the plan of education pursued towarda
the same class of people throughout the whole of Scot
land. If otherwise, that Assembly would be surrender-
ing the great principle of their Union—namely, that the
Bible was open to all. How such a misconception had
gone forth amongst the persons who composed that As-
sembly as that the plan proposed for Ireland was the same
as that which was followed in Scotland, he did not know,
but all he could say was that they were totally mistaken
upon that point, and did not rightly understand the na-
ture of the Irish plan of education. What the Prel icy
and Protestant clergy who were opposed to this plat' com
plained of was, not that the Catholics were at the disposal
of their priests with respect to their study of the Bible,
but th it they being so at their priests' disposal in that
respect, the Protestants were deprived of the Bible, and
prevented from an unrestricted study of it. He and those
who thought with him would never consent to teach
Protestants that it was proper to keep out of sight any
portion of the Scriptures ; neither did he assent to the
necessity for giving them a special license to study nut of
*shoot hours that volume which formed the basis of all
human happiness. The plan of education was at va
riance with the opinions of most of his brethren of the
Irish Church. Of the Prelates of Ireland, eighteen wets
opposed to it ; the clergy were also opposed to it ; and
it was also deprecated in numerous petitions from all
classes, but more particularly trim the Presbyterian Dis-
senters, not only of Ireland, bat also of Scotland and Eng-
I ,nd. Allusion had been made to the opposition which
the Irish prelacy had fostered amongst their respective
clergymen to this plan. And it had been said, if the
clergy were left to th ,ir own judgment they would
approve of the plan. Now be beg.-ed to assure their
Lordships that so far from the Bishops in Ireland being
obliged to invite the clergy in their respective dioceses to
object to the plan, they were obliged very frequently to
exert themselves to repress their feelings, and to keep
down the ebullitions of their warmth when expressing
their objections to the plan.
The Duke of WELLINGTON concurred entirely
in the opinion of the Must Reverend Prelate who had just
spoken—namely, that the General Assembly of the
Kirk of Scotland were not accurre y informed upon the
subject of the new plan of education for Ireland at the
time that their assent was gay. nto the petition. He
knew that there was in general no time so uselessly spent
in that House as the discussing the way in which petitions
were tot up ; but in the case of the present petition there
had been a coesiderefile misapprehension on the part of
the G. neral Assembly, and his attention having been
drawn to it, he deemed it necessary to bring it before their
Lordships, It appeared that at tee meeting of the Gene-
ral Assembly, at which the resolutions upon winch the
petition was founded Were proposed and agreed to, the
Solicitor-General for Scotl •till, who is a member of that
Assembly, as well as an officer of the Gov, rnrnent, got up
aed stated that he had received certain official letters from
a gentiemee rem was also in the service of Government,
and who was in a situation where be was most likely to
be possessed of accurate information op the subject of
Irelaed—he meant the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland. rt appeared that hitherto the General
Assembly had only possessed that knowledge of the plan
of education which was possessed by th;;ir lordships, the
House of Commons, and the pui!lic at large. The letter
to which the Solicitor-General referred, as having been
officially received, purported to be from the Chief Secre-
tary of Ireland, and he would refer to the proceedings in
the Assembly, in oiler to show that that body was not be-
fore aware Of the real plan of education, if even they could
he supposed to be so, after they had lieaF(i the contents of
that letter. The Noble Duke here referred to the proceed-
ices of the General Avsemhly, as reported in one of the
Scotch p A. 7. elder of the name of Dr. Duncan
asked the Solicitor- Cieueeat to eileratfl the nature of the
plan of education, as he did not mean to foreclose him-
self front expressing his dissent from it. The Solicitor-
General then exalaihed that one part of the plan, a, stated
by the Right Hon. Secretary fir I;releedp teas, that he
(Mr. Stanley) saw no objection to the estafilishment of ra
Bibie class ie every school which was conducted on the
Government plan ; to be held once a day, for
the express purpose of reading the Bible, at which the
Protestants were to be compelled to attend, but the Ca
tholics were :sot zo be forced to give their attendance.—
(Hear, bear.) The Salieitcr-C.e..eeral then said that h.
wished the General Assembly to uaderst,-.nii that
this expii,ci:ipp of the plan did not rest upon one, hut
span several conatn6eisat!ons from the Chief Secretary o
Ireland. Now alter the Solicitor-Ceeeral had given this
inform a:Len to the General Assembly, a resolution was
Solieifer-Psi;er.ad,waindsolweihyicohbteetionueltoi
proposed by Dr. CV.;;-, Which was founded on that corra-
-1 oninication of the
that the approbation of the plan re
be found embodied in the petition
Wtoertltioe
13'1:Bois:
Thus at appisaW4
e
e iuration, by thef
ttli-heeffirer6ietBheibut'bitYh'?re
in consequence o
,lasses in every Government school. He
-retain
greed that al, comments on the potion had better
.ee avoided, but his attention Wing been excited by the
locument to which lie had just referred being put into
his hands, it did appear but itqt to the General

.
,

Assembly, that it should be known that their approb 1-
tion of the plan was given, because they were informed
it contained certain conditions which were afterwards not
complied with. The subject was most important—it was
neither more nor less thin the education of a whole
people, and the Bo ird of Education had already pro-
nounced their opinion that no system was deserving of aid
the principle of which was other than in taking as a chief
guide, that book wherein was contained the foundation of
all moral oblieations.

The Earl of BELHAVEN said it appeared to him that
the N •hle Duke was in error when he averred that the
Solicitor-General stated himself to have received a corn •
munication from the Chief Secretary to Ireland. He be-
lieved the Solicitor-General said no such thing ; he allu-
ded to a letter received by another individual, a Member
of the Assembly; but he di•i not at that time say it was
an official letter, and he simply stated the contents of that
letter, in order that they might serve as an inducement, or
rather a foundation, for some of the proceedines of the
General Assembly that day. The letter merely stared that
the Government had no objection to the formation of
Bible classes in the schools ; and the petitioners, adopting
that principle, aer~ed in the propriety of granting to the
Protestants the fullest liberty in the use of the Bible,
and also in its being daily read in the classes.
The letter, therefore, no where states, that compul-
sion is to he used to form those classes, nor could
the Noble Duke make out that the General As-
sembly entertaineol any idea that the schoolmasters were
to use compulsion towards forming these Bible classes.
There were no Catholic schoolmasters, and, although a
Catholic might attend those class•-s it he liked, still he wa.
very sure no schoolmas•er in Ireland would ever think for
a moment to enforce upon any Catholic, an attend ince at
a class where the Bible was indiscriminately real. He
understood the Chief Secretary to say that the Govern-
ment had not any objection to the form ttion of Bible
classes in the cho uhut the those classes were not to be
formed during school hours—they might he held either
before or after, but were to form no portion of the common
duties of the school. That arrangement would be satis-
f,ctory, q) • e understood it, and ao he believed the Gene-
ral Assembly understood it; and if such should be the gee
neral impres,ian in the minds of the persons composing
that body, he certainly saw no objection to the Govern-
ment encouraging the establishment of those classes in the
schools in Ireland.

The Bishop of EXETER was prepared, on the part of
the General Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland, to go much
further than the Noble Earl had done; for the petitioners
expressy tae th-or belief that the Bilr'e classes were to be
established during the ordinary school hours, and it was in
that belief that the Solicitor-General withdrew his res du-
torn in favour of that of Dr. Cook ; at the same time de-
claring, that if the Doctor would propose his resolution, he
would not only witt,draw that which lie had brought for-
ward, but he would twist readily second it. The Solicitor-
General had, however, gone much further than he was
wart anted, and he had, in point of fact, placed the General
Assembly in error as to the sentiments of the Government
upon the introduction of the Bible classes in the schools.
In all the schools in Scotland not only was there a Bible
class, but the whole system of education was founded on
the liable ; and althou h the Roman Catholics had their
own Bishops and clergy, the children were suffered to
avail themselves of the scriptural education thus offered to
them, and to join in reading the Protestant version of the
Bible. It would he in vain that children should be at
liberty to read in the Bible before or alter school according
to their own option. It was absolutely necessary that
they should have a teacher to direct them at those times
which should be considered appropriate, and should he set
apart fir that study. He was sure that if the Clergy
were to be the instructors of children, the duty wtiulif be
performed with all the z•sl which could possibly be
iirou;ht to it; but he believed Noble Lords would agree
with him in thinking that the time of the Clergy would
be ill employed in being the sch tolmasters of the children,
unless they were prepared to receive their doctrines in
other ways and upon sther odcasions. These could he
no sound system of education if religious instruction
were separated from moral precepts. For in what did
moral education consist but the inculcation of those
duties which man was bound to discharge towards
his neighbours; and what was the great incentive
to the fulfilment of those duties but the consciousness
that they were the will of God ? Then, he would
ask, how was that will to be learned unless access were
given to the book which revealed that will? That
book, it seemed, was to be completely shut out, for the
Protestants were not secured in the possession of it, and
the Roman Catholics were to be consigned to the care of
those whose principle it was that it was a ha•l mode of
teaco;ng people their duty to put the Bible into their han.ls.
The Earl of HADDINGTON bore testimony to the
corr ctness of the statements made by the Noble Duke
(Wellington) near him. He had good reason to know
that but for the solicitor's speech, a strong petition would
have been forwarded from the General Assembly, expres-
sive of their disapprobation of the Government plan of
education in Ireland.

Lord PLUNKET begged to repeat the statement he
had made on a former evening. that there had been above
600 applications to the Board of Education since its esta-
blishment, and that there were 125,000 children niiw edu
eating under the sys-em. He entirely agreed with the
Noble Duke (Wellington), that no system of education,
founded on abstract principles of morality, and xcluding
rdigi.n, could be good. Nay, he went further and said,
that no system was good which was not founded on Chris-
tianity—but consistent with that principle, as he contended
—viz, the design to make education national—(H ar.)
In order to effect that, it was absolutely necessary that
where a great part ofthe population were Roman Catholics,
nothing should tie introduced to deprive them of the ad-
vantages of the system. The Noble and Learned Lord,
after entering into a defence of the details of the system
adopted by the Board of Education in Ireland, proceeded
to refer to the petition now under consideration. He begged
their Lordships to recollect, that the petitions referred, it,t
to what the petitioners conceived ought to be done in
Scotland, but to what ought to be done in Ire-
land. In Scotland no such system was necessary,
Not the Board of Education bad adopted the plan
which was now the subject-of consideration, because they
found it necessary to comprehend the Roman Catholics.
Now what did the General Assembly of Scotland require
according to the petition ? They required that there
should he a daily Bible school, and to that there was no
objection that he was aware of. There was no objection
that the children of all religions should get moral and re-
ligious instruction together during certain hours, and that
at other tunes means should be afforded them of receiving
religious instruction adapted to their peculiar sentiments.
He believed this was the feeling of the members of the
Board of Education, and of his Majesty's Ministers, on
this point.

The LORD CHANCELLOR could not approve of the
time which the Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter)
had selected for entering on this subject. There was one
part of the Right Rev. Prelate's statement, however, to
which he (the Lord Chancellor) thought himself called
upon to reply, as it involved a charge against an Hon. and
Learned Friend of his, be meant the Solicitor-General fur
Scotland. He was sure that it the writer of the cominuni
cation on which the Right Rev. Prelate founded his state-
ment, was the respectable prison the Rght Rev. Prelate
represented, he must dei ply lament the use made of his
letter, and if that use had been made with the writer's
consent. he could not fail to regret that he had commis-
sioned a person in the situation of the Rev. Prelate to
vent calumnies so gross.—(Hear, hear.) He the (Lord
Chancellor) stated, w.th the utmost confidence, that the
charge against the Solicitor-General w s as unfounded as
it was foul. There was not in the three kingdoms a man
more wholly incapable of being th, author, the party, or
the approver • f anything which deserved—even by the
utmost perversion of ingenuity--the appellation of " a
irick."--(Cheers.) The Soli;itor-cieneral for Scotland
was remarkable, above all other men at the Scotch Bar,
for an eforaordinary accuracy in the statement of facts—
that was his peculiar accomplishment, and, therefore,
to know that Mr. Stanley had not written the letter,
was to know that the Solicitor-General could not have
Ina le the statcpent ssctifted zo him. if any doubts
however, remained On the subject, those doubts were
le i,oved by a contradiction which be (the Lord Chan
(Thor) was put in possession of by persons filling high.
situations in .4icotland, ii.tt,r referring to the conimuni-
eations made to him on this subject, in contradiction to
the charge made against the Solicit r-General the Noble
toil Learned Lord proceeded to observe that the Noble Duke-
( (Wellington) se med to have founded his opinion on no-
thing mole than a newspaper report.a rgport, too, pub
ha ed in a country where reports were by no means likes)
to be so accurate as in the metropolis, where the art 4,1
reporting was more practiaed and better understood.—
(He ir, hear.) Before sitting down, he might be al
lowed to say, that he could have wished that thl
Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) had derived
some benefit from experience, and had paused and taken a
rattle more pains to inquire before hes bad brought forwaid
so unfounded a charge on the S dicitor General for Scotland
Nut many weeks ago the Right Rev. Prelate had charged
•oine individual in some department of the Governinceitaiti
luty—and a grits abuse it would have been had it
.vitti having been the means, through an abuse of offiw: .1,
thheirn&i,e
by
of Buckingham, we understood) pot now in Lis place, to
ul
itndga betraying
letter
adtdhree ssce(tintfild 'an c
Noblere "Deudk n(