The Sun.
London, England, 1859-06-08 00:00:00

SCENE IN THE HOUSE

[When the noble lord resumed his seat there was a dead
silence, and no hon. member showed any outward "sign" of
the slightest inclination within him to speak. The Speaker,
after a solemn pause—during which Lord John Russell
exhibited much anxious restlessness—then proceeded to
read the address, and subsequently the amendment. Lord
John Russell now started from his place, and with a hasty
step moved from his seat below the gangway to that
occupied by Lord Palmerston, in Opposition, exactly
facing the Ministerial bench. Seating himself by the noble
lord, he conferred with, and apparently took counsel
from him, and then hurried back to his seat. Silence still
prevailing, and no hon. member showing any " sign"
to speak, the noble lord again hastily left his seat, and
proceeded to one of the back Opposition benches, where he
first pulled one member by the button, and then another,
but none would speak. A titter now ran through the house,
which was entirely denuded of her Majesty's ministers—not
one of them being at this time in his place—and Lord John
being unsuccessful, returned again to his place, where he
tried Mr. Mellor, Q.C., and that learned gentleman, amidst
the titter which had now swelled into a downright laugh,
rose to the rescue. The scene excited much curiosity and
speculation, indicating, it was supposed, a disposition in
some quarters to bring the questions in issze to a division
without further discussion.]
Mr.MELLOR accordingly rose, and prevented an abrupt
termination of the debate. He condemned the dissolution
of the late Parliament, contending that even the language
which the Government had advised her Majesty to use in
addressing the Parliament that day showed the unjustifi
ableness of the dissolution. He had been returned by a
large constituency mainly to say on their parts that they
had no confidence in Lord Derby's Government, and to op-
pose it. He had no confidence in the fine promises which
had just been made to the house as to a new Reform Bill.
Even if the Government were sincere in those promises,
their new Reform Bill would most probably be no better
than their late Reform Bill, which was condemned by every
one in thehouse that was not a member of the Government
It was impossible to abstain for any length of time from
giving the verdict of want of confidence contained in the
amendment, and he for one should gladly go into the lobby
to record his vote against the Government at the earliest
possible moment.
Some minutes having elapsed, during which no honour-
able member appeared desirous to address the house,
Mr. HUGESSEN at length rose. He said that he, had
come down with very little idea of speaking on the import-
anth subject under debate; but the singular silence vaned
prevailed on the opposite benches—a silence which afforded
one of the best proofs of the compact nature of the body—
compelled him to perform the somewhat difficult task of
folowing speakers who had advanced arguments wh i hhad
as yet been unanswered, and of endeavouring to add to
the proofs which had been adduced of the incapacity of
Ministers—an incapacity which, although they were not
ready to admit, they were so slow to deny. (Hear,
hear.) Upon a subject of such gravity as a vote of confi-
dence or no confidence in the Government he believed that
the country would not be satisfied unless the eminent
statesmen who occupied a leading position in that house
explained the reasons which actuated them in the vote that
they were about to give. The right hon. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Excequer,inhis defence of the Ministry,
had attacked the gentlemen who sat opposite, and .had
denied as an impudent fabrication the report that Lord
Derby had subscribed £20,000 to a certain fund for elec-
tioneering purposes. He was glad to hear the denial, but
the country was not by such a disclaimer to be cheated out
of its conviction that means had been resorted to at the last
election which had not been had recourse to on former oc-
casions. The Government were very much mistaken if
they thought that this subject was to pass away in oblivion,
for he believed that before many weeks elapsed there would
be statements made by men of greater influence than him-
self which would carry conviction to the breasts of the
auditors. With regard to the dissolution he looked upon it
as an act of positive ingratitude—(hear and " Oh! oh!")—
for an amount of forbearance had been exhibited by Parlia-
ment towards the Government which was almost unpre-
cedented in English history. It was because he believed
the Government were not worthy of the confidence of the
house that he would vote for the amendment of the noble
lord, and he might say that the penal dissolution which had
been inflicted on the house was of itself sufficient to deprive
them of confidence in the Government. (Hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER would leave those who wished to get
into office and th(ise who wished to retain office to discuss
the amendment before the house. He would speak of a
more important matter—the defences of the country. (A
laugh.) He was glad to find that the naval force of
the country was to be increased, and that the report
of the Naval Commissioners was to be acted upon.
He was glad also that the Government had issued
their proclamation offering the bounty to seamen,
though he regretted that, as yet, it had not produced the
desired result. They had not yet been able to get more
than 3,000 men, and he contended that the bonnty ought
to have been offered long ago. Of the 3,000 men who had
been got, not above 7f per cent. were seamen. He re-
commended the Government to issue another proclamation

setting forth, that in the event of war, the bounty would
be given to the seamen who were now employed. He be-
lieved that France had at this moment a larger force in
commission than we had. The First Lord of the Admiralty
shook his head at this statement. He hoped that the right
lion. barWlet would be able to show the house the number
of ships in commission in both countries, so that our naval
strengt as compared with that of France, might be accu-
rately known. The First Lord of the Admiralty ought to
tell the house at once what the prospects were of our being
able to maintain a much larger fleet than we had at present.
There was said to be an engagement or understanding be •
tween France and Russia ; and the house ought to have
some information from the Government as to the state of
the Russian fleet at present, in reference to the possibility
of a movement in the Baltic as the war developed itself.
We had the means of manning 12 sail-of-the-line with our
coastguard and coast volunteers, but we had not at the pre-
sent moment ships to put them into. He admitted, how-
ever, that that was a part of the service to which we ought
not to have recourse, except in the greatest emergency. The
hon. and gallant admiral cited the remarkable speed with
which the great bulk of the French army was recently con-
veyed from Marseilles to Genoa, as belying the taunt that
the French made bad sailors. It was worth the while of
the Government to bear that fact in mind, because it went
to prove that in the event of a war with France we should
have to contend against an enemy who knew his business
perfectly well. If the• Russians sent a fleet to sea—which
they usually did every summer—if they sent 15 or 20 sail-
of-the-line into the North Sea, the funds, which went down
the other day at the mention of a secret treaty between
France and Russia, would fall twice as much as soon as it
was known the Russian fleet had set sail. If the Govern-
ment had not men enough in the dockyards let them enter
more, so as to get a strong fleet prepared, and then every
person would feel secure, and satisfied that Government
were doing all they could do.
After the hon. and gallant member, sat down there was
a short pause, and cries of " Divide" continued on the
Ministerial benches.

Mr. J. WILSON said it was not necessary for him to
justify the bringing forward of the present motion, because
it had been admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
himself that it was not only a fair and proper motion, but
that, under all the circumstances of the case, it was a
necessary motion. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the
state of the finances, there was no doubt that the last public
accounts represented that they were in a comparatively
flourishing condition. He was prepared to show, on the
contrary, not only that that was not the fact, but that,
during the past year, the Government had been pursuing an
exceedingly dangerous course. They had, in fact, reversed
. the financial policy of their predecessors by allowing nearly
three millions of direct war taxation upon income and pro-
perty to expire, while they had retained three millions of
indirect taxation upon tea and sugar, which ought to have
been allowed to expire. He condemned the conduct of the
Government in relation to the Cunard contracts, which they
had renewed, contrary, he said, to the regulations in force,
and contrary to the recommendations of the committee who
had sat upon the subject. He hoped that the Government
would give some explanation on this subject before the de-
bate closed, as the rumours in circulation were very detri-
mental to the reputation of the Executive. Amidst loud
cries of" Question, question," the hon. gentleman proceeded
to say that it was the.question when he could show that the
expenditure of the country last year was a million more than
was anticipated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He
hoped the course the Government was about to pursue
would be a course of strict neutrality, and more strict than
their acion.i and expressions would lead one to believe.

Mr. D. SEYMOITR said the question now at issue was
not the duty on Irish spirits, the merits of the west coast of
Ireland, the distance between Cork or Galway and Liver-
pool, or the subsidies of rival lines of steamers—(cheers)—
and he protested against the course which the hon. member
for Devonport had adopted in occupying the time of the house
with such paltry details. (Oh, oh, and Hear, hear.) Were
they or were they not at that moment deciding the fate of a
powerful Ministry and the dearest interests of the country ?
He (Mr. D. Seymour) was an independent member of that
house. (Oh, oh, and laughter.) Yes, he repeated it fearlessly,
an independent member. (Renewed laughter.) He had goae
down to a great constituency, without hereditary or other
influence, but addressed himself simply to the question of
reform, and upon that question he had mn sent to this
house. (Cheers.) He had come here utipledged, but de-
termkned in his heart of hearts to support that which he
believed would best conduce to the interests of reform. The
questio'n had been asked to-night, where was the Solicitor-
General ? Could anything be more absurd. The Solicitor-
General was an eloquent and distinguished man, and he was
too good a lawyer not to know that it was not for those who
had to prove a negative to speak first, but that the onus pro-
bandi rested upon those who, in a crisis like the present,
met the Government with a resolution such as that now be-
fore the house. (Cheers.) He protested against the here-
ditary leaders of the Liberals assuming that he and other
gentlemen on that side of the house who held the same in
dependent opinions—(oh, oh, and laughter)—were prepared
to follow them like a flock of sheep across the floor of the
house. (Loud cheers.) The noble lord the member for
Tiverton and the noble lord the member for London said
that the Government of the Earl of Derby were not entitled
to the confidence of the house and the c ountry ; and not-
withstanding the Government pledged themselves in the
Speech from the Throne, and through the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to-night, that they were prepared to bring
in a substantial and honest measure of reform next session,
those noble lords cried, " Out with them, without a trial and
without fair play"—(shouts of Oh from the opposition ;
met by cheers from the Ministerial benches). The Govern-
ment of Lord Derby had made certain Komises relative to
the question of reform, and had been true to them. They
had laid a bill upon the table which recognised the great
principle of giving to the intelligence of the country a
greater share in th representation. (Oh, oh, and cheers.)
He did not mean. to 'say, as an independent Liberal—(oh)—
that he was satisfied with the details of that measure, but
certainly it recognised the principle for which he contended,
and the Liberals were offered snore by the Government than
they were by gentlemen on their own side of the house. If,
however, the Government did not propose to give enough,
what were Lord John Russell and Lord Palmerston pre-
pared to give ? (Cheers.) He hoped the noble lords, be-
fore asking him as an independent member—(ironical cheers
and laughter)—to give an unfair, un-English, and factious
vote—(cheers)—would redeem their conduct by putting
their issue upon a constitutional and intelligible basis, and
telling the house how far they were prepared to go them-
selves. (Cheers.) He must say that he sympathised deeply
with the noble lord the member for London—(a laugh)—
who, in his present position, reminded him of the lines of
, Moore—

" One morn at Eden's crystal gate
A Peri sat disconsolate."
(Loud laughter.) If, then, the noble lord were admitted
within the gates of office, would he give them a good Re-
form Bill ? Unless the leaders of the Liberal party were
prepared to answer that question in the spirit in which he
had put it, he for one should give his vote heartily and sin-
cerely to the Government. (Cheers, cries of oh 1" and
laughter.)
Mr. LAING could not help thiikking that a change of
ministry would be more likely to entertain that alliance or
good understanding with France which he believed to be
the keystone of the permanent peace of Europe, and essen,
tial to the true interests oflcivilisation. He therefore could
not hesitate to follow his old leaders on the old principles
of reform, peace, and non-intervention. (Cheers.)
Lotd PALMERSTON, who was received with cordial
cheering, said—Sir, I think if any man could doubt whether
the motion of my noble friend, calling on the house to ex-
press their want of confidence in the Government, be justi-
fied by the situation of the Government, the course of the
debate this evening would afford him the most conclusive
proof that it is so justified; for how can the house have
confidence in a government and a party who have no con
fidence in themselves ? (Cheers and laughter.) How can
the house have confidence in the Government of a party
who, boasting as they do of their numbers, cannot find more
than one advocate who will dare to come forward on this
occasion, so far as the debate has yet proceeded, to
defend their cause, and whose silence upon this
occasion is like letting judgment go against them by
default—(cheers)—and is the most conclusive avowal that
they are not deserving of the confidene of the house ?
(Cheers.) Sir, I admit that if one champion alone was to
fight their battle—if the rest of the army were so timid or so
weak and powerless that they could not dare to enter the
arena—they made a good choice in their champion. Si
Pergama dextra defendi posse, no doubt the right band of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have been sufficient
But those who heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer must
have felt that if the rest of the Government had nothing to
say in opposition to the amendment which had been moved,
that speech, eloquent as it was, and full of agreeable jokes
and disagreeable reflections upon one and another, was
wholly insufficient on this occasion to meet the motion
which had been made by my noble friend so ably, and so
well seconded by the hon. member for Middlesex. I must
say that I think it the most extraordinary spectacle that.
has ever occurred in the history of Parliament that a Go-
vernment, charged in the face of Parliament as being un-
deserving of the confidence of Parliament and of the coun-
try, should have sat silent as they have done on this occa-
sion. (Hear, hear.) You would have thought that man
after man would have risen on that side, that even the few
remaining members of the Cabinet, deserted though they
b
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by the motion of my noble friend. (Cheers.) But, sir, it
seems that they'are most anxious to conclude this ,debilte.
They entreat the house to take them upon trust, for argu-
ment we have not been called upon to hear from them ;
tHheeayvhenayse
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ea
us come to a division to-night, for we hpitovsesibgloet; our
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tef rb
et haesmssheolrvte sas, except, "For
' friends up. (Laughter.) Do not talk about our
conduct—the less said about it the better ; for Heaven's
sake do not discuss our motives, but come to the vote,
and then afterwards, if we have the majority, you
may talk about them as much as you like." (Cheers and
.laughter.) Well, this is a very grave matter to be disposed
of in that light and airy manner. The question is, whether
the administration of one of the greatest countries in the
world is or is not deserving of the confidence of Parliament
and the country? That is not a question at any time to be
dealt with in that light and easy manner in which it is
dealt with by the gentlemen on the other side ; but least of
all is that question to be so treated at a moment when the
flames of war are raging in Europe ; when no man feels
certain how far this country may or may not, under the
guidance of those who at present rule, be involved in it; I
say, when great European interests, and great British and
national interests are at stake, I think it is disgraceful for
a Government to decline self-vindication. (Cheers.) Now,
I say that upon every ground the house ought to come to
the vote that is proposed. I think the mannen the
which
the Government was formed—l think the course which
Government have pursued—l think their mistakes and de-
faults in domestic legislation—l think their errors in
foreign policy—l thihk the course they took in regard to
the dissolution—l think upon all these grounds the house
is justified in withholding from them that confidence
without which a Government cannot and ought not to
exist. (Cheers.) Sir, Ido not like to revert offensively
to the events connected with the formation of the Govern-
ment ; but upon this occasion
they came into office by Ilima must
tn
wastary e—
not a foundation
(cheers)—by a manceuvrea Pjir.tilfieud,peilaps, by the
ordinary tactics of party,
There were a certain number—l believe nearly one hundred
upon which they could claibmutthwe clocnifidence of the country.
members—of the liberal party who differed with the govern-
ment then in regard to that tall against conspiracy and mur-
der. I lamented that they took a different view from that
which the government had adopted,sbut they had aaright to
take that view, and with the opinions which they enter-
tained they performed a public duty by voting against the
introduction .of that bill. But what was the conduct of the
gentlemen opposite ? De they disapprove of that measure
Did they not, on the contrary, in this house andin the other
house urge the government to bring it forward—and' did
they not, on the motion for the introduction of the bill, to a
man, vote with the government for laying that bill upon the