The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-14 00:00:00

'-,mss- ~

.-

remarks were applicable particularly to the counties of
Roxburgh, Berwick, and Mid-Lothian.
Colonel PERCEVAL begged leave to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite whether the difficulty whirl► the clerfy
of Ireland were represented to encounter in the valuation
of ti the,, for the present half year, would be met by any
provision in the Bill which he had introduced
on that subject ? If not, it would be most advisable that
the subject should receive the immediate attention of that

House.
Mr. STANLEY admitted that the subject was
extremely important, and that it would not be met
by the provisions of the present Bill. It was, however,
advisable that the subject should receive ti•e
consideration of the House, and if the difficulty could not
otherwise be obviated, it would be necessary to have re-
course to an expedient which had formerly been adopted,
and to take the valuation according to an average of a

.ertain number of years.
Lord ALTHORP, in answer to a question put by the
Marquess of Chandos, stated, that he would, on an
early day next week, bring before the House the
subject of the Sugar Duties, when he would take
occasion to make his general financial statement.
Mr. HUME took that opportunity of asking a question
of the Noble Lord opposite, on the subject of military sine-
cures. The Governorship of Stirling, it is well known,
was a sinecure; and as the individual who lately held the
appointment was dead, he wished to know whether any
one had been appointed in his plice. Ministers did not
need patronage to enable them to carry on the Govern-
ment; and as he had always insisted on the abolition of si-
necures, he wished that it should be abolished.
Lord ALTHORP was quite aware that the lion. Mem-
ber for Middlesex had uniformly opposed sinecures of all
sorts ; and when he (Lord Althorp) sate on that side the
House he had adopted the same line of conduct. Still
he was of opinion that the Crown should not be with-
out the means of rewarding old and efficient servants.
He did nut see why the old officers of the army should
not in that manner he properly remunerated.—(Hear.)
On the motion of Mr. STANLEY, the Order of the
Dav for the adjourned debate on the Composition of Tithe
(Ireland) Bill, was read.
The SPEAKER having put the original question and
the amendment,
Mr. CALLAGHAN rose. He denied that the proposed
measure was calculated to tranquillize the country, or to
settle the tithe question to the satisfaction of the people.
From one end of Ireland to the other there was a general
feeling of dissatisfaction at the name of tithes, and a deter-
initiation that the payment of them should cease. It was
perfectly evident whim that the measure would be ineffica-
cious. It was said, that by this Act Government only
wished to ascertain the amount to which the Protestant
clergy by common law and by custom were entitled.
To that alone he had no objection, hut be was sure
the object of the Government would not be obtained.
It might be that in a future Parliament the subject would
receive due attention, and in the mean time, if Govern-
ment made that declaration, he had no doubt the people
of Ireland would pay the tithes, and until then rest
satisfied. The Composition Act, he knew, was not one
that would be attended with severity, but in the present
excited state of the people no persons could be found who
would be willing to undertake the risk of going round pa-
rishes to value the tithes. He much regretted that feeling,
but it was impossible not to perceive that it was very
deeply rooted in the minds of the people. A great
deal bad been said about the agitators, as they were called,
of Ireland. The fact was, that those who were called
agitators were far behind the people in regard to their op-
position to tithes.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Some of the
leaders of the agitation system had lately given no advice
whatever regarding .tithes, indeed the people had gone
before them, and refused any longer to receive any advice
upon that subject. The people believed that if this Act
passed, they would pay less to the clergy, but that
they would pay more to the landlord, and, there--
fore, they objected to pay in any shape to
a clergy from whom they received no assistance
or benefit whatever, and who were, they believed, gene-
rally inimical to them. He did not wish to speak in terms
of disrespect of the Clergy, but it was notorious
that they had been hostile to the feelings of
the population, and interfering with them riot
only as to their education, but as to their civil rights,
and had done all they could to interfere with their domestic
comforts. He was persuaded that this feeling against the
clergy had been increased by their interfering with their
notions of education, and their sense of those injuries was
so great that it was utterly impossible to make tithes in any
shape palatable to the people. Those were the precise
circumstances in which Ireland now stood. The Hon.
Member said he lived in a parish in which the tithe
Composition Act had been adopted without his consent—
(Hear)—and he, for one, thought tithes a cruel robbery.—
' (aAn; will * .aj:aeilniecsot'nnsithdie'riCldeir'g:;;":meaven'crrouofenl thatirobberys parish,
account
that awit
with
her
whom he lived on terms of intimacy and friendship
He felt much for the situation in which clergymen were
placed who bad a certain portion assigned them by law,
but who were now placed in great difficulties by the
almost impossibility of collecting the portion so assigned.
The,first great anti-tithe meeting took place in his neioh-
bourthood. He could assure the House the feeling had
grown up quite simultaneously amongst the people,
and ad it not been for the Catholic Clergy, great dis-
turbences must have taken place. The p'an pro-
posed by Government would do nothing to put down the
feeling now abroad. It went no farther than the law, as
it at' present stood ; for the Act was not to come into
operation for some time, and he was sure it would he a
long time before persons would be got to take the risk of
valuing the tithe
Mr. Y.PEEL
said, that all the Gentlemen who op-
posed the tithes spoke greatly against any interference
with vested rights.._( Hear.) But he was utterly igno-
rant of the meaning of non-interference, if their
whole speeches did not exactly tend to that which they
deprecated. For what were tithes, but the vested'
property of the clergy ? lie would support the measure
of tile lion. Secretary. He hail heard a report that
Government had received a notification from certain Mem-
bers that if thia measure were not given up till a Reformed
Parliament met, Government would lose their support.
But he hoped they would not leave the Protestant Irish
clergy in the starving state in which they at pre-
sent were. If the tithes were not to be secured
to the Protestant catablishment, what security was there
that taxes or rents would be p iid ? He believed
the Hon. Secretary was anxious for the measure to pass,
but had not the power, for it was well known that Go-
vernment bad been controlled for the last eighteen months
by Political Unions.
Mr. BENETT could not agree with the opinion ex-
pressed by the lion. Member for Cork, that this was a
cruel robbery. The clergy of Ireland had as good a right
to tithes, so long as they did their duty, as any other indi-
vidual to hie own property. He did not believe any gentle-
man in Ireland would be so dishonest as to take the tlthee
from the clergy to swell his own income. Eighteen
years ago he had written in favour of such a plan as
that now under consideration, only in place of giving
the landlords an offer of the tithes few eighteen years' pur-
chase, his plan was that it should be double that, fur he
cthoensßidiegrhedt
Hon.tithes aGs goodenti Gentleman
pairlopehardty land.asivena g
Irneahtis
boonopinion, to
the landlords of Ireland, Tithes were, as he said before,
the property of the State, and might be disposed of by the
State. It was extraordinary to I'm that the Irish land-
lords could refuse their assent to so advantageous a scheme
iaa):laltnihbawetraaoslft:
toeyrri.eedT,thliiiaeermac purchasehteyr thesed bßvyai
wasght
lue our and honesty, hemneoentniree.esmtt yah n,a an* s t welllTvi.e
;aabut all
thiede of what the Church had a right to r
circumstances considered, it was no doubt feu'lle
as the Right Hon. Gentleman had the means to Ygive.athleihe
wished not to be misunderstood ; he was not for a we ilthy
provision for a Protestant Church is a Catholic country
but he considered the tithes tile property of the State : he
said nothing of the distribution of the property, but he
thought the property itself ought to be preeerved for public
purposes; and lie thought the plan proposed by the Right
Hon. Gentleman was the best that could be adopted for that
purpose. He should, therefore give it his cordial support.
Lord KILLEEN intended to oppose the motion of the
Right Hon. Secretary, because he thought that it was hot
calculated to give satisfaction to Ireland. It was eaid that
something ought to be done; in that he perfectly agreed
but he thought that since they had made up their minds
to
be
satisfactoryol
sale.
j. c something,A they
CAMPBELL
the
Lp
people nnpvgl
preferred
t as
fnefrre well d 0 that which should
Ireland.t h e
Bill of the Right
Hon. Secretary to the resolutions of the I-lon.Alener
as
for Meath, because the Bill treated tithes
while the resolutions falsely treated them as' at
removed
property,lt
would be most unjust to see the payment of tithes I
from those men who had bought their land with emove'
know-
ledge that it was subject to that charge, and replaced by
a general property tax, of which they were only to bear e
proportionate part. Under these circumstances he should
entirely give his most cordial support to the Bill of the
Right HOD. Gentleman.
Mr. (YCONNELL—I shall give my most cordial i+is

-10 \

oat to the Bill of the Right lion. Chntleman, and mY
!nest hearty concurrence to the resolutions of
Hon. Member for Meath. What I have to say t
subject, however, I shall express as briefly as I can, for
on I
do not know anything more idle—l do not know a molt,:
contemptible mockery than the debate which is taking
place on this scheme of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Good God ! what is it ? It is a discussion in which the
state of Ireland is entirely forgotten—in which
conduct of the Government towards Ireland is Intl
looked—and in which the unanimity of the
nation is treated as if it was a combination of trades-
men or mechanics to wrong their employers. The
Noble Lord has said, this is a combination which mustwhol be
put down ; but what I want to know is, whether a e
nation can be guilty of a combination ?—( Hear, hear.)
A little tine ago it was disputed whether the people of
England were in favour of Reform ; but a change in the
Administration proved that a vast majority of that people
were decidedly in favour of it ; and no sooner seas that
fact evinced than the demand for Reform became irresisti-
ble, in spite of all the resistance of the Upper House, or
of the Throne itself. To be sure, the people of Ireland
have always been treated as provincialists—as colonists :
but if it had a Parliament of its awn, I ask, could the
present system of tithes exist for an hour ? Who are they
that oppose the payment of tithes? Not the Catholics
alone—not the Presbyterians alone—not the Dissenters
alone. But even the very Protestants of the Church of
England had iu great numbers joined in this combination,
as it was called. When, therefore, we have such a union
of sentiment throughout the country, this paltry and piti-
ful manner shows nothing of the env of the statesman,
or of the affection of a patriot. What is the conduct of
the Ministers ? At one moment they are shrinking and
shrinking from the most important topics; and at another
they are exhibiting the most absurd daring, by opposing
the fondest and most earnest desires of a whole people. It
was rumoured, that when the Right Hon. Gentleman took
office, it was for the express purpose of supporting the
interests and freedom of Ireland ; and yet, was not one of
his very first acts to write a letter in which he gave a die"
tinct pledge in favour o f the Kildare-street Society ?
Mr. STANLEY—That letter has been acted on to the
utmost extent to which it was possible to act on it.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I am glad that I have roused the
Right Hon. Gentleman from his torpor, and that he has
begun to interrupt me so very soon in my speech. What,
hower, I say is, that that letter contained a distinct pro-
mise, in which I presume the Right Hon. Gentleman was
afterwards over-ruled by the rest of his colleagues, who,
no doubt, felt after what they had said and done, when in
oppisition, it would be impossible for them to remain .0
office if they were to act up to the pledge of the Right
Hon. Secretary. But it is not in this alone that the same
disposition towards Ireland has been evinced. What has
become of the Grand Jury Bill ? Lord Leveson Gower
pledged himself to the bringing in of that Bill ; and I
know that he is a Nobleman fully capable of vindicating
himself under any pledge. When he went out of office it
was intrusted to me ; it was afterwards taken out of my
hands, and passed into the House of Lords ; there it has
been slumbering ever since before a nameless Committee,
for I have not even been able to learn of whom that Com-
mittee is composed. And why has this been done? Be-
cause in the eleventh hour the Right lion. Gentleman has
thought fit to resort to prosecutions, and because he well
knows that, with a new Government, many said there was
no chance of those prosecutions succeeding. Let us retnem-
ber, too, the way in which those prosecutions have been
conducted. I do not hesitate to say that those charges
have been brought forward with an indecency which no
Ministers would have ventured to exhibit before the Eng
lish natiou. But, according to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, anything is good enough for Ireland 1 How has he
treated Gentlemen in a rank of life nearly, if not quite,
equal to his own? Instead of resorting to a summons, as
usual in such cases, he obtained sworn depositions ; and
on those the sanctity of their houses has been violated, and
they themselves dragged through the streets like common
felons, at the command of the Right Hon. Gentleman. I
do not care to allude to my own case. There is no need
for it. Oh, the Right Hon. Gentleman is very welcome
to sneer as much as he pleases ; but I would at least yen•
tore to take the liberty of asking, whether he imagined that
there were any danger of my absconding, when he di-
rected the privacy of my house to be violated by the
thief-catchers whom he sent thither ? This, too, I will
tell him—that though he has thought proper to act thus
towards an Irish Member, he would not have dared to have
pursued a similar line of conduct towards an English
Member of Parliament. But in return for all this evil,
have the Ministers conferred any goof on Ireland F They
have given us a stingy Reform Bill. Thanks to the people
of England, we have got more than was intended ;
but Heaven only knows what the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's colleagues may do in the other House ; for any-
thing we know, it may be referred to a Lords' Commit-
rats grand principle is to
keep up the present Protestant Church Establishmen t in
Ireland—his great determination is to do nothing which
shall lessen that establishment, which is so monstrous
and preposterous in its size. And what are his col-
leagues about all this time? Do they think that the
people of England are indifferent as to tithes ? Do they
think that there is no desire for the abolition of tithes
on the part of the Dissenters of England ? Do they
think that there is no desire in the agricultural districts
to diminish the weight of the burden? Do they think
that nothing will be said at the ensuing election as to
pledges for an alteration in the system of tithes ? I will
venture to affirm that all these things are true; and that
when a Ministerial candidate goes before the people, he
will he asked how it is that when England itself is look-
, ing for a change in the tithe system, the enormous Church
establishment of Ireland, instead of being diminished, has
been increased.—(Hear, heir.) What the Right Hon.
Gentleman is now asking is neither more nor less than that
9,600,0001. should be accumulated to purchase land for
the benefit of the Protestant• Church of Ireland. This is
his chimera for the satisfaction of Ireland—this is his dream
of Irish tranquillity: and to heighten the effect, he pro-
poses, in order that the affair may he better managed, to
place it in the hands of an eec:esiasticalcorporation. Surely,
never did madman dream such a dream within the walls of
Bedlam ! What, does he think the people of Ireland
are in love with the Corporations ? If the Irish have any
one especial disgust, it is towards Corporations.—(Cheers.)
.They have only known Corporations as interfering with
s
ibtbpuitarersir:tvgii;caitceinenog_arnniptdaro,
rrdwaeet
advocatingi
iata amiable,
.diaetbei loucemi:taynirn—t
jobbingeari an:syet
anything
ntnergduaubinil
upheld
ow, tno the
dishonesty—asniep this
as c
little
eo . f
rsbeytalenanEctlediess?las-
iA calteirsegsy clergyman, nh,u liken
ianyty; otherand the when is
Protestanten to th the
pastorbetter
heard of the father having died, the son having fallen sick,
and the cattle being diseased, he was ready to listen to lie
tale of woe, and temper his demand with mercy and with
pity. But a Corporation cannot do this. A Corporation
can know neither compassion nor relaxation—and in that
respect it seems to bear a resemblance to the Right Hon.
Gentleman himself. Oh ! heavens, what species of Go-
vernment is this, to throw Ireland to his management, as
the spoil it; thrown to the hounds after the day's hunting is
over ? With respect to the clergy of the Established
Church, I fully admit that they are in great distress. We
all know that they are. We all know that men of large in-
comes are now obliged to borrow 5/. or 10/. to live from
day to day. We all know that they are in a situation
which calls for our pity and compassion. And in conside-
ration of their condition, what (toes the Right Honourable
Gentleman propose to do ? Why lie says he will give them
some more land—(A laugh)—.as if there ;vas not land
enough already.—(Hear.) Would it not be better if the
Ministers had come down to the House with a vote of
credit ?—(Hear, hear.) Would it not be better if they
bad asked for 60 many Exchequer bills to be placed at
t ohl
their disposal ; to repay which an abundant supply would
H
have been found in the property tax, which must be
had been proposed, no one would have
adopted when we really come to an arrangement of the
in order r.sed that fi
teal
ett hmis. reliefa case
tghiet
aggravatediilgehahyrt
.I);teh
eDpresentafforded
e top thoseuanpp,
suppose
eWt
itlceoas
that the
been more ready than myself to have concurred in the vote
_(ln
prosecutions to tyliich he has now resorted, will serve in-
stead of Exchequer bills, a d intimidatepeople •
into the
payment of tithes? lf he does, I can tell him that
he is
mistaken ; I can tell hithat
these prosecutions are only
playing with the ashes thrown from the volcano, wl •
the volcano itself is boiling for another eruption,when
perhaps: it may prove irresistible. Neither het it w
that in opposing the Right Hon. Gentleman's schleernsak,
offer nothing in return. What do we propose? '3atvv:
propose to quiet the people of Ireland, by telling them'
that tithes are extinguished, The report of the committee
has already told them so in name; but We would tell them
so in reality, and prevent that Report:being a mockery. But
perhaps we shall be told that we cannot extinguish tithes,
because they are the property of other persons:
—(Hear, hear, hear.) I do not admit this, and I
will tell the House why. If the land-owner does net
choose to till his land, he will have no tithe to pay ; the
tithe, therefore, clearly is a tax on the use of the land; and
it is remarkable that the raw material pays nothing to-
wards that tax. In short, like many other taxes, it is paid

by the consumer.—(Hear, bear.) The effect of tithes is
to make provisions dearer ; and, consequently, every man
who cats pays a portion of the tithe. At first the land-
herd, the tenant, and the public would mutually gain ht'
the extinction ; but in a few years the public would be the
sole gainers. Ireland is essentially an agricultural coun-
try. Prior to the year 1799, many of her inhabitants
were employed in manufactures; the loom in the north,
and the woollen trade in the south, supplied occupation
for thousands. The effect of the Union, however, has
been to send nine-tenths of the rent of the soil out of the
country into the pockets of absentees ; and the conse-
quence of this has been almost entirely to annihilate the
manufactures of Ireland. I have stated these facts to show
that Ireland is now essentially an agricultural country. I,
therefore, now call upon this House to untax the agricul-
ture of the country, and to ley on property in general that
which so severely oppresses the farmer.—(hear, hear.)
It is the severity of this burden which is sufficient to
account for the combination which at present exists in
that country. This is no party matter. In the south of
Ireland, many of those who used formerly to be the
leaders of the Orangemen are now in the field for the pur-
pose of obtaining the abolition of tithes ; and I know that
the: Presbyterians of the north, when quitting Ireland for
foreign shores, though they wrung their hands for sorrow
at quitting a country they loved so well, consoled them-
selves with the expression " Blessed be the Lord, we arc
going to a country where we shall have to pay no tithes."
The state of Ireland is frightful—tile state of the clergy is
afflicting—this question deeply interests the finest people
on the face of the globe—a people great in their character,
and yet even merry in their misfortunes. But can I be-
lieve that this is the case, when I look around me ? What
do I see—not more than five-and-twenty English gentle-
men who will take the trouble of listening to a debate of
such vital importance to Ireland. The matter is settled—
the question is determined—and the Right Hon. Gentle-
man is as sure of carrying his point as the gamester of
winning with a loaded die : he has the loaded die : but
for all that, I tell him that the whole is not
—I tell him that the people of Ireland shall remain
quiet, and triumph in their quiescence: they were
able to triumph over Wellington of Waterloo, and
they are not to be put down by an Irish Secretary.
What possible benefit the Right Honourable Gentleman
can expect from this Bill, I am utterly at a loss to con-
ceive. Will it appease the two-thirds of Ireland that are
already in commutation, to learn that the other one-
third is to be put in commutation also ? Will it make
them more tranquil ? I tell him that it will not ; all the
representatives of Ireland tell kim that it will not ; and
yet he desperately determines to try the experiment in
spite of all warning.—(Hear, hear.) But, not content
with this, the Right Hon. Gentleman has another plan
quite as admirable as the first. He proposes to make the
landlords of Ireland his receivers. But does he know
that many of those landlords are deeply in debt? Did
he ever hear of one instance (surely it seems to me as if
that instance had come from himself) in which a gentle-
man of 10,0001. a year, bad a charge of 9,5001. on his
estate ? And would he put his tithe charge on that? If
lie would, the gentleman had better at once make him a
present of the estate, and wash his hands of it. But per-
haps the Right Hon. Gentleman intends to spread the tithe
over the whole estate, including the charges : if so, it only
shows the entire ignorance in which he is legislating for
Ireland. Did he ever hear of the process of custodium
in Ireland ? Does he know that an estate may be
seven, eight, nine deep in custodiurn, and that the cre-
ditors are obliged to scramble and do the best they
can ? I myself knew a property on which there were
eleven custodees, with the landlord himself in receipt of
the rent as a second custodee: and, under such circum-
stances as these, I should like to know where the tithe mo-
ney is to come from ? Does the Right Hon. Gentleman
also know that there are in the Irish law what are called
' eleg its, which will also stand in the way of the tithe
charge ? Does he know that there are trespassers in pos-
session of estates ? Does he know that there are over-
holding tenants? These are things, I imagine, none of
which have entered into the Right Hon. Gentleman's phi-
losophy; and I suppose 1 might as well talk Arabic to
him as mention them; and yet every one of these are ne-
cessary ingredients to the great revolution of property
which he is suggesting to the House. If it was his inten-
tion to invent a scheme for the purpose of throwing the
landlords into the hands of the people, and for making
white feet and black feet of the gentry of Ireland, the Right
lion. Gentleman, with all his ingenuity, could never have
discovered a plan better suited for the purpose than this.
--(Hear, hear.) It would be idle to threaten Govern-
ment. lam the last man in the world to attempt such a
thing ; but I should be wanting in my duty to my country
if I were not to tell him that it is not in the power of
England to put down the combination in Ireland. He
icih.cie ohwe add
may make it disappear for a day—he may hide its dimi-
nished
the ratiiosfnotiarnlgarunigi
h
destruction,
dis-
tinction, and threateghn:
until at length those,
night—but
t—oh feb
betweenpvueLt.
or
ypitenbreeti
property,
spitetewhn tithes
ssl l ofa
fosofer
avgsneeortcyoi
tedhteiyoafftuo
with
itashix:
e
Committees.
while the Right Hon. Gentleman is talking
and layingel ca ntds
theh downoul
vested
ftuh fully
l y
interestsr igh right
understandaon fd
the ph thew
raets eiwrongtn tis
in
nhat
hisw Tith
What I chiefly desire is, that the people of
En
pro-
pose. We propose the abolition of tithes—we prop oseto
incumbents—
we do not even want to strike a single shilling a year off
the income of the present Protestant Clergy and, in
conclusion, I tell the Right Hon. Secretary, that though
there is a bargain which he can I
nake now, it is one which
he will not be able to make a year hence.'
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had placed the word " conciliation" on his lips ; but
the whole of his discourse had teemed with anything save
conciliation.—(Cheers.) The peace of Ireland was what
they were all seeking, or at least what they ought all to
wish to seek •but ; the course taken by the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman seemed adopted for the purpose of dis-
turbing that peace,
as fast as lay in his power. He (Lord
J. Russell) was one of those who had been most earnest
and anxious for Catholic Emancipation ; and be had been
earnest for it in order that the Roman Catholics might he
placed on an equal footing with the Protestants. But
now that they had obtained those equal rights, he could
not acknowledge that they were entitled to make use of
their numerical superiority in Ireland, and turn that
which was intended for equality into tyranny.—(Hear,
hear.)
With regard to the question more immediately
before the House, he had listened to the various speeches
made by the representatives of Ireland, in the hope that
some way would be discovered of conciliating' the differ-
ences that existed, and of obtaining that which was most
desirable,
namely—a fair measure of justice for the Irish
Church, together with someting which those representatives
might deem calculated to secure the permanent • y
and tranquillity of Ireland. He was sorry, howevieresrtpoet
findn
that he was so far disappointed as not to be able to see how,
by any alteration of the proposalof I • '
its Right Hon. Friend,
such a reside was likely to be effected. The first
tion, as to whether tithes could continue their quts-
in present
shape, he understood to be by common consent abandoned
on all sides. This being disposed of, two other questions
next presented themselves—the first, whether any other
income could be substituted for the present ; and the se-
cond, to what purpose the money so obtained ought to be
applied. As to the first of these questions, he must say
that it seemed to him that the representatives of Ireland
gave an importance to it which it did not truly possess' •
an I that the real difficulty lay in the second of these ques
tions. It had been proposed, that instead of a tithe com-
position, there should be a land-tax instituted on a new
valuation ; but when it was asked what were to be the
details of this measure, and how it was to be carried into
effect with snore satisfaction to the people of Ireland, it
clearly appeared that a tithe composition, if fairly esta-
blished, would prove more effective than any laud-tax.
By this composition, ail grinding exactions of tithe would
be got rid of, and the income of the clergyman being per-
manently fixed, there would lie no raising it from yeartoyear, or introduction of fresh demands, which under the
present system had caused so much complaint. Having
disposed of this question of a land-tax, he now came to con-
sider what were the other points of a difference between
the plan of the Government and the resolutions of the
Hon. Member for Meath. The Hon. Member stated in
those rieeo'fetiogs, that tithes ought to be extinguished in
substance as well as in naaaee ; but he (Lord J. Russell)
contended that the Bill of his Right Hon. Friend would
substantially extinguish tithes ; and therefore, in that re-
spect there was no matter at issue between the two parties.
But the reaolutions of the Hon. Gentleman then went on
to state, in a sort of parenthesis as it were, that the
Church of Ireland ought to cease to exist. This, indeed,
was a considerable difference ; and he hail been puzz
i
with the vagueness and the want of intelligibilityl n the
resolution, until he found that the vacuumby the evidence of Dr. Doyle before the Tithe vas sCommittee.upp l i supplied
On consulting that evidence, he perceived that Dr. Doyle
had made this statement : s
" I think the tithing pit
ought to be for ever and utterly abolished, and a land taxem
not exceeding one-tenth, substituted in its place the
produce of which tax, as well as the church lands, should;
be placed at the disposal of Parliament, or of a Royal
Commission, to enable them to supply what was necessary
for the support of the poor, for the assistance of the
ministers of religion, for the education of the children

and for the promotion of works of public necessity or
of national improvement." lie did not think that
it was a seasonable time to discuss the proposition of
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, the Member
for Kerr). Considering that this was a question of tithes,
and that we were now far advanced in the month of July,
the House would pledge itself unnecessarily, and would
involve the three branches of the Legislature, by agreeing
to a resolution, of which the effect was, that the Church
of Ireland ought to be abolished, and that its funds ought
to be applied to public purposes.—(Cheers.) As reference
had been made by the Hon, and Learned Member for
Louth to a vote which he (Lord John Russell) gave in
thechu
ryceha r 0
fIBI
r 2,4, when
la, n
dhathed n
o
a questiongreater as
number w, w
ne ri
stet]:e
s,
and a larger amount of revenue, than the interest of the
Protestant religion required, lie must say, that although
he might not now approve of the farm in which that vote
was made, he was still of the same opinion ; and he
thought that the Protestant Church of Ireland was too
large—(Cheers)—not only for the purpose of giving in-
struction to that part of the population of Ireland which
professed the Protestant faith, but he thought it too large
for its own permanent stability.—(Great cheering.) There-
fore, whenever the question might arise in its proper
day, and at its appointed time—(Cheers)—he should
be ready to maintain the views which lie had for-
merly expressed.—(Cheers.) It was certainly the opi-
nion which he had always held, that it was the duty of
the Legislature to provide for the religious and moral in-
struction of the people of Ireland in a way in which that
had never yet been done.—( Hear, hear.) What was in-
tended by our ancestors in the establishment of the Church
of Ireland for religious and moral purposes had not an-
swered that end ;—(Cheers,)—and as the Legislature had
now to consider anew in what way that end might best be
attained, it was bound to respect—as, he believed, every
Member of that House was ready to respect—the rights
of those who had existing interests in the present arrange-
ments.—(Hear, hear.) Preserving to the church those
rights of property, which it justly claimed, the Legislature
might provide for its future welfire ; at the same time
that it would deliver the people of Ireland from the state of
ignorance in which they were proved to be by the daily ac-
counts received from the newspapers, or from other sources
of information. To that ignorance he attributed all the evils
by which Ireland was afflicted ; and until effectual mea-
sures were taken fur the instruction and moral elevation of
the people, it was vain to legisiate for the preservation of
property, or for the maintenance of peace, good order, and
tranquillity in that country.—(Cheers.)
Mr. LEFROY had heard the speech of the Noble
ciotstsEiiail
vyt: ,
that
tate,tsgi:;:hel
Lord with great pleasure, and he concurred, as he was
sure every man attached to social order must concur, in
1 '
the sentiments which that speech expressed ;—(Hear)—
although he must acknowledge that, in some respects, the
Noble Lord had not stated his opinions as distinctly as he
(Mr. Lefroy) could wish. So far as the observations of
the Noble Lord might apply to a more equal distribution
'of ; the property of the Church amongst the Members of
the Ministry, he had nothing to object. But if the Noble
Loid could be supposed to agree in the declaration of the
Hein. Member for Kerry, that the revenue of the Church
of Ireland was monstrous in the amount, and unnatural in
the application, he (Mr. Lefroy) was prepared to show
that the Protestant clergy were not too numerous in pro-
portion to the Protestant population—that the whole
amount of the revenue, if equally distributed, was not ex-
cessive, and that the application of the funds which they
' received was advantageous to the interests of religion, and
beneficial to the people of Ireland themselves. Tee Pro-
testant population amounted to 1,269,289, and the
number of benefices was only 1,252 ; giving 1,000 Pro-
testants to each benefice;—(Hear)—and if the revenues of
the.church were equally distributed, they would give to
etch benefice an income of no more than 199/. a-year. It
surprised and grieved him to see attacks made upon the
property, upon the existence of the Church of Ireland, by
gentlemen who were admitted into that House only upon
the condition that they bound themselves upon their oath
not to use their influence as Members of Parliament to
the injury of the church.—(Hear.) As to the measure of
Government, which they were then engaged in discussing,
he could not conclude the brief remarks with which he had
troubled the House, without characterizing it as one which
could not but prove highly mischievous in its operation ;
it was unjust iu every possible point of view in which it
could be considered, it was revolutionary in principle, and
subversive of all the rights of property.
Sir J. BURKE disclaimed, on the part of the Catholics,
the slightest wish to appropriate to the clergy of their
church the revenues darived from tithe. In the wildest
periods of popular excitement, he had never heard such a
sentiment broached by the Hon. Member for Kerry, or by
any other of the Catholic leaders. There was this indis-
putable fact, stated by the Noble Paymaster of tltisiietioianmFblo,Airstcchheteasd:,
fpgtironhire:tsi ohs
toer,
present
vs.
t,ei
.emnmnd_upeeleaor_
revenues enjoyed
,havre
anean
tcsj ,
woeAylieus, of which i _
identical
deo,bem.ayn, tp.m_iuct
.ial
misrepresentation
ew,
,rpfyez,iur,l
with
hlwsryeg,
was
agreedylhsteeal
altogetherort cifrooentsmhi
)stesepo,
e snatml e
me
at s
nimneeahrehimcouilnd
tnhoitnckoinngcutrhawtitiht
tchhearnacigteirit;
Haotn.thGe
was a measure, the operation of which could lead to the
pacification of Ireland ; he feared that it was so directly
y
opposed to all the wishes and feelings of the great body of
the people, that it could not be successful : this, however,
he begged to qualify by the frank admission that some
measure in the nature of land-tax, or valuation, or com-
mutation, was absolutely necessary.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN said it was a Bill which
would neither provide for the Clergy nor satisfy the
people. There could be no more direct mode of creating
dissatisfaction than by making the Composition Act
compulsory. He thought the plan would be found alto-
gether inoperative. The Tithe Composition Act had
already glaringly failed. The Hon. Member then com-
plained of the manner in which the affairs of Ireland had
been administered, and that that country had been go-
verned, not by an Irish Secretary, but by an English
Bishop. He admittted that the measure was well meant;
but it could never be operativ, for it was not founded on
any principles of wise or sound legislation.—(Cheers.)
of
i n rakng personal
STANLEY thanked the Hon. Gentleman for the
.tth
ecclesiastical dignity to which he had elevated him; but
he did not think it probable that he should ever become
an English Bshiop.—;l
Asonlaalugaht.t)acklis.
He
Ctrs
ore htigl
iittig hte
Hon. Hon.
Gentleman bad wandered horn the real question for the
purpose
Gentleman referred to the evidence of Mr. Griffiths,
to show that the valuation made under the Tithe Com-
position Act was not exaggerated, as stated by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Meath. Comparing his own
plan with the resolutions of the Hon. Member for Meath,
he contended that his Bill, which promised to do some-
thing, was a great deal better adapted to the present cir-
cumstances of Ireland than a series of resolutions, which
would lead to nothing, except to postpone all discussion of
the question this session. He readily admitted that the
landed gentlemen of Ireland did not wish, as they said, to
throw the burden which they ought to bear off them-
selves ; still he was surprised that the Hon. Member for
Kildare should have proposed a tax on all houses, capital,
and land, and that the Hon. and Learned Member for
Kerry should have proposed a general tax on all funded
and personal property. But he was still further and still
more surprised to find a recommendation from these gen-
tlemen to meet the present exigency by a vote of credit,
and trust, after giving way to the system of intimidation
now going on—to trust, after confessing the power of
combination to accomplish its object, to the moderation
and good sense of the Irish people, to receive from them
what was advanced, and to repay the money to the people
of England and Scotland. Then came the Hon. Member
for Cork, who said openly that he had never paid the tax
with satisfaction ; that he would rather not pay it at all—
that he wished to get rid of it, which was very extraor-
dinary ; for what was that but throwing off the burden
from the shoulders of the landlords ?—(Hear, hear.) The
resolutions moved by his Hon. and Learned Friend pro-
posed a means of appropriation of all the Church property ;
it was to be devoted to the payment of all the ministers of
religion of all denominations, and to be devoted to cha-
ritable purposes. lie was much aurpris,ed at that coining from
those who opposed the introduction of Poor Laws into Ire-
land; for what would this be but another . •
means of providing
for the poor ? His Bill would really go to the extinc-
tion of tithes, in the sense in which that impost was a
grievance, leaving it in the hands of Parliament to make a
future arrangement as to Church property, and placing at
its disposal a t ." -• from being '
angioie fund, and keep it. de-
pendent on those who refused to pay tithes by a latvlese
combination. His Bill would further relieve ground-
down tenants, and save these insolvent people from the
claims of the clergy, which they were unable to meet.
Further, his Bill provided a feasible and easy means of re-
deeming the tithes, provided the landlords chose to pay
them themselves, by authorising them to do that at the
rate of 15 per cents less than their preseni value, Ts,
English landlords would be glad, as hiS Noble Friend the
Member for Northampton said, to have such an advantage,
and be able to redeem their tithes on such terms. The
Bill he proposed certainly did not meet all the grievances
of the tithe system, but it did put an end to the conflict
between the tithe proctor and the peasantry—it would
Put an end to the collision between the clergy and the
people, and it would throw the burden of paying the
'tiles where it ought to be borne, namely, on the land,