The Sun.
London, England, 1835-05-26 00:00:00

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which he had formerly in a great degree lost, and obtain bet
ter food than in those extremely pauperized districts, where he
lived on a most wretched subsistence, having little or no work
to perform. He would not go further at present into this
subject, but would content himself with alluding to that other
point which had been touched on by the Noble Lord—the re-
duction of public and general taxation. It had always been
his opinion that those local burdens of which he had spoken,
the poor-rates, tithes, and the county-rate, were those bur-
dens on which the greatest impression could be made by local
economical management, as well as by wise and prudent mea-
sures introduced into Parliament. But it was not by Acts of
Parliament that any such a reduction of general taxation could
be effected as would in its present state benefit agriculture.
It must be admitted, he thought that substantial relief could
not, as regarded general taxation, be afforded to agriculture ;
and that being admitted, the Malt Tax not being
.to be re-
pealed, and there being scarcely any other tax that could be
-id peculiarly to affect agriculture, he thought they would
out a most fallacious and delusive hope, if they
be hOldn ".
lb '""S to give their immediate attention to gene-
pledged themsei.-
P b . agriculture, with a view to its re-
ral taxation as it affectet.
nroplosed one or two things
moval. The Noble Lord ha..
substantial relief ; his
which certainly could not afforcfmus,-.!
intention being only to convince the farm,: that his distress
was really felt by the Legislatare. Now he symp.,:!bi?ed with
the farmer most sincerely, and he could not but think that a
reduction of rent would be the most effectual of all relief
which could be administered to him. He very well remem-
bered the ridicule with which the Noble Lord had assailed
his Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer (now Lord
Spencer) when proposing to repeal the tax on shepherd's
does—(a laugh)—and he was rather surprised at finding the
Noble Lord ( Chandos), in his temporary character of Chan-
cellos of the Exchequer, following the steps of his Noble
Friend so very closely on the present occasion, as to dwell
pathetically on the grievance of a farmer's being obliged to
go to market in a cart without springs, lest it should be sub-
ject to duty, as a thing which in its alteration would afford
any very substantial relief to agriculture.—( A laugh.) The
fact was, no such custom prevailed as farmers going to market
in such vehicles, and he was quite surprised at the statement
of the Noble Lord. Upon a whole view of the subject, he
should beg leave to move, by way of amendment to the Noble
Lord's resolution, that all the words be left out after the word
" that," for the purpose of inserting the following—" That
this House will direct its early attention to the recommenda-
tions of the Committee which sat last session of Parliament
upon the subject of County-rates, with a view to the utmost
practicable alleviation of those burdens to which the land is
subject through the pressure of local taxation."—( Hear, hear.)
The question having been put,
Mr. COBBETT said the Noble Lord had referred to the
motion of which he (Mr. Cobbett) had given notice with re-
spect to the Poor Law Amendment Bill, with the view, no
doubt, by anticipating, to prejudice that motion and render it,
if possible, abortive. And what was the information which
he had submitted to the House to illustrate the operation of
that measure? From whom had it been derived? Why,
from the Commissioners themselves. How often had that
House been deluded by the statements of Commissioners?
Nothing was so absolutely monstrous. The Commissioners,
he dared say, would tell them they were doing a great deal—
no doubt. What had they their salaries for ? They were, in
fact, pleading for their salaries—they were writing for their
salaries, and they gave their evidence for the purpose of making
the House and the country believe that they had earned some-
thing. He maintained that in respect of savings, never would
there be so much saved except by acts of sheer cruelty as the
amount of the salaries paid to the Commissioners. The re-
port of those Commissioners in which the Bill had been
introduced was full of falsehoods from beginning to end ;
it had been contradicted by Magistrates, by country gen-
tlemen, in pamphlets, and in paragraphs innumerable.
There was a union in Sussex of 36 parishes, of which the
Duke of Richmond was the chairman. He held in his hand
their printed bill of fare •, let any gentleman read that docu-
ment.—( Cries of " Read, read.") Let them read it them-
selves—( Loud laughter)—and they would see how the savings
were effected. This was the Duke of Richmond's bill of
fare.—( Renewed cries of " Read, read.") Why were they
so impatient? Here was a boy, and gentlemen would recollect
that some of them were only grown boys,—a boy from three
to ten years of age, and at the latter age he would eat as much
as a man—had on Sunday 12 ounces of bread made of flour
which cost ss. a bushel, half-a-pint of milk gruel, 7 ounces of
rice, and another half-pint of milk gruel for supper. What
was the bill of fare for a man 2—(Cries of " Read, read.")
He had seven men at his farmhouse, and there was not one of
th.em who did not eat more substantial food for his breakfast or
dinner one day than the Duke of Richmond's bill of fare
allowed a man for a whole week.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord
had only to submit for one week to the treatment and diet
prescribed by the Duke of Richmond's bill of fare, to be for
eve,• convinced of the severity and cruelty of the Poor Law .
Ansendme.:.t. Bill. The Noble Lord had stated that lie (Mr.
Cobbett) had rs.t.
seeesented the Poor Law Bill as tending to
make the poor live oi, a coarser sort of food ; he had never so
represented it ; all he hat, said was that such had been it:-
and the barrister who drew
tended by those who invented tt,
"
it up had in his printed instructions tt1.17 It is passage :
de-
sirable so to frame the law, as to cause the ;working people to
live on a coarser sort of food." The Noble Lora, then Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, denied it, but he (Mr. cobb,:_t) had
himself seen the document ; he had moved for it in the mgt.::
lag way; let it be produced, and the document would speak
for itself. A spaniel dog should be allowed more than was by
the system assigned to a man ; the system was monstrous, and
it ill became a Noble Duke, drawing 12,0001, a year from the
land of the country, to sanction it. Upon the other topics
which had been alluded to, he should not long detain the
House. He saw no prospect of relief to the farmers, even
from the proposition of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord
was deceived as to the relative amount of what was complained
of. In his own case he paid 1601. rent, 28/. tithes, 311. poor-
rates, 41. county-rates, 3/. los. road-rates, and 270/. wages ;
but a small portion of the outgoings of a farmer consisted of
road and county-rates, and making them a present of them
altogether, they would not be effectually relieved. lie ac-
knowledged that he could not help feeling much surprised that
any Hon. Member should treat tithes as a burden deeply affect-
ing the landed interest ; it might be expedient to reform the
Church, and to make an extensive change in the nature and
administration of her revenues, but he desired to learn wherein
did the burden of tithes consist ? Agriculture had flourished at
many periods since the general collection of tithes came to be
established in this country, and if tithes were really such a bur-
den as had been represented, that could hardly have been the case.
Now, it did appear to him much better for the tithe-payer to
deal with the parson than with the landlord.—( Hear, hear.)
Something had been said about the necessity of relieving the
agriculturists from the expense of maintaining the roads in a
state of good and sufficient repair, and of relieving them by
making the country at large defray the expense. If such a
principle were adopted, the rest of the community might very
well exclaim, " What I make us pay for maintaining your roads
in good condition, for your profit and convenience ?" In his
opinion the House might go on for ever discussing topics of
this nature, without arriving at any sound or practical conclu-
sion ; they might go about here and there searching for hid-
den causes, but he could tell the country that they overlooked,
or seemed to overlook, which in effect amounted to the same
thing, the real cause of all the agricultural difficulties of
ii:ngland—it was neither more nor less than the change which
had. taik:T place in the value of money.—( Hear.) Therein
lay the true sot,.
which
of our misfortunes. As to the corn law,
respecting which a 0.0....4 deal had been said, he hesitated not
to affirm that it afforded no c.rotection whatever to the agri-
culturist.
er occasion, when
Lord G. LENNOX said, that on a for...
the Hon. Member for Oldham thought proper to btsring charges
against his Noble brother, he treated those charges .v.Ol the
contempt which they deserved—with the contempt which mi.:-
representation and falsehood justly merited. No sooner had a
report of the speech to which he was alluding arrived in Sus
sex, than a meeting took place of the members of the union,
which was attended by several magistrates, and by many indi-
viduals of great respectability. That meeting unanimously
agreed, to a resolution expressive of the disgust with which
they viewed the charge brought against his brother. The
Hon. Member for Oldham might smile, but the accusations
were utterly denied, and could not be proved. Nothing could
be farther from the fact than the statement made, that the
Duke of Richmond derived an income from the poor, and ho
hoped that the House would not be led away by any insinua-
tions in which the Hon. Member for Oldham might think
proper to indulge. If he were to put the character of the
Duke of Richmond in comparison—no, he dare not do that—
but if any one were to institute a comparison between the
ehar&cter of his Noble brother and that of the Hon. Membu•
for Oldham, he should have no anxiety as to which might
stand higher in the estimation of his fellow-countrymen.—
( Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBBETT said, that as to what he had said, how-
ever, he was perfectly ready to se-state every word—he would
not in the least degree recede.
Mr. CLAY then rose, and at the same time Lord ARTHUR
LENNOX. The cry for the Noble Lord was very general, but
the Hon. Gentleman did not give way. He said he should
have readily yielded to the Noble Lord had not one speaker
been already heard to the question of vindication. The Hon.
Member for Oldham, lie proceeded to observe, had adverted
to some of his own prophecies—it should be remembered that
many of those prophecies Were yet unfulfilled. Amongst the
arguments of the Hon. Member was this, that the effect of the
Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth,
was to lower the price of corn. Now, it was remarkable that
it should have operated upon only one kind of corn, barley,
oats, rye, &c., bore a high price, while wheat alone had sunk
in value.--( Cries of oh, oh, and much interruption.) The
Hon, Member then appeared to notice the operation of the
corn laws upon agricultural distress, but he was inaudible
amidst the conversation carried on in all parts of the House.
When heard, he was understood to say that, in his opinion, it
was perfectly fair to call upon the agriculturists to pay for
those roads which did not form part of the great lines of corn-
munication.—( Cries of " Question.") He concurred with
the Noble Lord in thinking that the farmer should be relieved
from any burden which in a peculiar degree pressed upon the
land, but beyond that the agriculturist could not fairly expect
the removal of taxation—so long as lie claimed monopoly, he
could not reasonably expect relief.
Mr. BENETT did not observe much difference between
the proposition and the amendment. The amendment looked
more to local taxation, but it did not, in point of fact, pre-
, elude them from considering the peculiar pressure of general
; taxation. He concurred with those who thought that there
must be, to relieve agriculture, some relaxation of the cur-
volley, and that it would be expedient to consider if it would
not be advisable to throw the poor-rates on the general fund
c, f the country.
Lord A. LENNOX gave his most positive, flat, and un-
qual'ified contradiction to every charge and insinuation which
had
been made by the Hon. Member for Oldham upon his
Noble t., rother.

f y;

Mr. COBB ETT said a word or two in explanation, which
did not reach us.
Sir R. PEEL bore testimony to the high character and ;
pure motives of the Noble Duke, and expressed his con-
viction that the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobbett) must have
founded his opinion respecting the conduct of that Noblee
Duke upon gross misrepresentation and misconception of his
objects. He regretted the desultory debate which had taken
place upon the resolution. A number of grave topics had --
been introduced—topics which would require for themselves
separately a long period of anxious consideration. One
eentleman had dilated upon the poor laws—another heel ,
recommended a change of the currency. Now these subjects
were certainly each worthy of its special debate, and he ex-
pected that whenever any Honourable Member brought the
latter forward, he would be prepared distinctly to state what
was in substance his project. Did he wish for a renewal of
a paper currency—would he debase the standard, or would .
lie promise an adjustment of contracts? He hoped at least he
would be ready to suggest some practical measure for their
adoption. The Hon. Member behind him, as usual, viewed
the question in a light peculiarly his own, and he boasted of
his consistency—( A laugh)—yet he remembered that in July
that Hon. Member had put it upon record as his opinion, that
do what they might with the currency, the national debt should
be thrown upon the land.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Thie
was one of the Hon. Member's projects for relieving the agri-
cultural interest.—(Laughter.) As to the Poor Law Bill, he
eeeld only say that he felt some such measure was necessary,
and he was by no means surprised to find that it had occasioned
some local ie.:sets and dissatisfaction, and that it had met with,
in some instances, considerable opposition. Upon the whole,
however, he had not to regret the view he had originally taken
of the subject. Next, as to the commutation of tithes, which
had also been alluded to, he hoped that the Noble Lord
(J. Russell) would not persevere in his intention of handing
over the matter to a select committee. After the treble at-
tempt which had been made—by Lord Altliorp, in 1833, and
again last year, in 1834, and lastly, his ( Sir R. Peel's) own at-
tempt, which was founded on the principle of voluntary comm.
tation—he admitted that it would be difficult to legislate ; but he
had much rather that the Noble Lord should say he was not pre-
pared to legislate that session, but that Government would apply
their minds zealously to the subject, than that he should transfer
into other hands a task which he conceived ought to be re-
served for the executive government, which could command
more information, and make use of more efficient instruments
of inquiry, than any body to whom their authority might be
partially delegated.—( Hear, hear.) Next, in considering the
subject of taxation, which had likewise been referred to, he
was bound to remember that there could only be a very limited
surplus. And as he had recently been in a position in which
it might have been his duty to bring forward what was called a
budget, he could not now be a party to raising. any hopes in
the breasts of the agriculturists, which as a minister he would.
not have felt himself justified in encouraging, and determined
in endeavour to realize.—(Hear, hear.) From the limited
amount of the available surplus, be doubted if any consi-
derable relief could be granted to the agriculturists without
detriment to the public service. He believed that Lord
Althorp's statement was not far from correct, and that the
surplus would not be more than 250,0001. -Under these
circumstances, with his knowledge of the facts and his own
intentions, he could not make himself a party to the rests-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would not attempt to induce the
agriculturists to believe that he had contemplated any great
reduction of the burdens of which they complained.—( Hear. )
He had always been an advocate for the maintenonce of
public faith.—( Hear, hear.) He was decidedly of opinion that
there was a far greater chance of relieving the agriculturists
by the maintenance of public credit and confidence than by the
direct reduction of any particular burden.—( Hear, hear.) He
thought their course should be steadily to reduce the interest
of the public debt. This would be beneficial to all interests in
the State.--( Hear, hear.) Besides, he really did not see that
anything could be pointed out as peculiarly pressing upon
agriculture which by its removal could afford any great re-
lief to that interest, excepting only the malt-tax. His rea-
sons for dissenting from the repeal of that tax he had al-
ready stated at length that session.—( Hear, hear.) But even
if he were disposed to sacrifice a certain amount of income,
and trust to the productiveness of the revenue, he did not
know that it would not be a matter of extreme doubt to
him whether he might not benefit the agriculturists much
more by other means than a reduction of direct taxation.
Ile was not prepared, however, to say that there were not
I imposts on the general taxation, by the reduction of which
the land would be benefited. And he would take that op-
portunity of throwing them out for the consideration of the
Right Hon. Gentlemen, because after he had prepared his
Budget it would be too late. He would advise him (Mr.
Rice) to consider the operation of the Auction Duty. The
amount of revenue was not great, and the agricultural in-
terest would be materially benefited by the increased facility
in the sale of landed property by open competition free
from duty. As it was, the duty did not attain its own end.
Lands were very frequently advertised, but this was rather
for the -purposes of valuation, than with
,the view of a bona
fide sale. Some new regulation, too, he suggested should
be made about the Land Tax. The law relating to its re-
duction was, in fact, inoperative : some new plan should be
devised. Then there was the question of the increase of
seirit license duty. He believed that in effect it had been
unjust. That addition had been imposed at a late period
of the last Session, when the parties interested had no fair
o.4ortunity of coming forward.—(Hear, hear.) Next, there
„lars ilse duty on glass, which he recommended to the
Rigbt Ho:. Gentleman's attention. He thought the land
would be ue,:manently benefited by the reduction of. Sucii
a tax, whits, afford the people a better article
of use at a cheaper He considered, in a word, that from
ose mentid, the n3ight.
dealing with such impiseel as th
not encoura one
the expelendctations:,
derive advantage, but he ces: g e
of its deriving any great benchfrom the reduction of. dntect:
:
taxation. Certainly at the.sainee time the. local taxation 44..
bear heavily on the land, yet it not be
fait. for,.ihe
landed interest to hope for any great advantage frOmarOue,.
tion of them. The truth was that gyeaens relief would
be
afforded the agriculturist by a new vainatioa than from
transfer of the particular charges to the public. „The,..,
expense of the valuation he knew made the difficulty.
In some cases it had been estimated at 40;0001 or 50,0607:,
But lie could state that in Laeca,-hire, and he belieeed
Yorkshire, there had been a new valuatiOn of the charge
for county rates, by which a more equable arrangeenent
with respect to the towns had been made, and he believed:
no dissatisfaction had been created. There was a relief
which he had proposed to give the landed this session, and
it was a very material one.—( [leer, hear.) It was his in-
tention to have relieved it of the Church rate.—( Hear,
hear.) Now to this personal property did not contribute
fairly. He had calculated on relieving the agriculturist to
the extent of 550,0001. As to the ordinary local expendi--
ture, he was net disposed to take it out of the superintendence
and control of the country gentlemen. He thought that limits
should be placud to the system of centralization. An altera-
t ion in the present system would eventually tend only to in
crease the patronage of the Government, and to swell out the
general expenses. But tLere was an item of local taxatiois
which he believed might be beneficially transferred. He meant
the expenses of criminal justice. It had been proposed by the
committee which sat last year to divia!e the cases into those dis-
posed of at the sessions, and those at ti'sc assizes, the Govern-
ment to pay the expenses of the latter—the oDunties severally of
the former. There was the ineonvenierce in this,.that county
magistrates would send all the cases they could to be disposed of
at that tribunal which to the district was the least expensive.
The Noble Lord proposed to obviate this by throwing the ex-
penses of both together, and imposing .olie moiety of the gross
amount upon the county, the other upon the public. This un-
doubtedly was an improvement on the report of last year. But he
proposed that no difference should be made, that both should be
transferred to the public. The whole expense would not, he was
ce2vinced, exceed 150,000/. Moreover, he would throw the
whole ,!large of prisoners convicted upon the public. This would
be a great ;OK and while he relieved a county of perhaos
20,0001. or 30,060/., there would be no similar charge upon ther
public. Government, acting upon a great and regular system,
would be enabled to manage matters uniformly, and with
much more economy than they could be conducted at present.
This amount of remission be should have recommended
might perhaps have exceeded the surplus of 250,0001., but
he should have trusted to the increase of some of the other
taxes. Since then, however, he feared some of the sources
of the public revenue had been less productive. The reso-
lution of the Noble Lord did not point to any specific sum
as the amount of the remission ; but it encouraged the hope
that the attention of the House would be called to the sub-
ject of local taxation, and to the granting of any practical
relief which, consistently with the maintenance of public
credit, could be afforded to the agricultural interest. If
his Noble Friend would take his (Sir R. Peel's) advice,
having succeeded in his object, and obtained an assent to
his principle on 'the part of the Crown, lie would let the
Chancellor of the Exchequer determine the amount of avail-
able surplus, and bring forward a plan for the relief of lo-
cal taxation, reserving to himself hereafter the right of
preferring any other specific plans. He trusted his Noble
Friend would take this course : if not, he (Sir R. Peel)
could not acquiesce in the resolution he had moved, which
pledged the House to objects which must excite expectations
on the part of the agriculturists, in whose distresses he sym-
pathized, but which he was not willing to aggravate, as he
thought must be the case, by exciting .hopes which, consis-
tently with public credit, could not be fulfiilled.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed
entirely in almost every opinion which had fallen from
the Right Honourable Gentleman.—( Hear.) He assured the
Noble Lord that it did not require his motion to induce Go-
vernment to render any possible relief to the agricultural in-
terest. Whether this motion had been made or not, the pre-
sent Government were perfectly disposed to' do all they could
to relieve its distresses. The Right Hon. Baronet must be
aware that there were several demands on the public revenue
which had not been included in the estimate of the surplus.
These were the Danish claims, and the claims of the merchants
of Dublin for loss by fire, so that he (Mr. S. Rice) might have
a less surplus than the Right Hon. Baronet had calculated. He
concurred in his observations upon the auction duty, and thought
there might be a modification or reduction of the duty on glass.
Sufficient credit had not, however, been given to Government
for the relief which bad been afforded to agriculture since the
cessation of the war. Since that period the amount of relief
which the agricultural interest had received in Excise duties
alone was 7,384,000/. ;in Customs only. 600,0001. or 700,0001.
in Assessed Taxes, 935,0001. ; and in Stamp Duties, con-
nected with Agriculture, 29,000/. making a total of 8,356,000/.
of taxes bearing on Agriculture, which had been remitted
since the peace. But supposing that any tax which presses
on agriculture were relieved to-morrow, on what- groin
would the agriculturists stand when the question -of 'the
Corn Laws came to be discussed ? The arguaterrein:thtiir
l'avour on other occasions had been, the unequal pressunif of
taxation on agriculture. The agricultural interest-would be
deprived of this argument by obtaining a remission of