The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-15 00:00:00

REGISTRY OF LANDED ESTATES BILL.

In committee on this bill clauses 1 to 4 inclusive were
agreed to, after which the Chairman reported progress.

SUPPLY.

The report was brought up and agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS.
The report was brought up and agreed to.
NAVY ESTIMATES.

On the order of the day for going into committee of sup-
ply on the navy estimates,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved that these estimates be re-
ferred to a select committee. The honourable member said
he had endeavoured to bring forward this motion when the
navy estimates were first introduced, but in consequence
of his not being able to obtain a seat in time he was
debarred' from taking that course. He had no objection
to the number of men proposed, or to the vote for the vic-
tualling of the navy; but as regarded the estimates gene-
rally he thought the noble lord the member for Sandwich
(Lord C. Paget) had made out a strong case for inquiry. The
votes for the navy since the termination of the French war
amounted to the astounding sum of £281,000,000, and the
estimates now proposed would make up a total of nearly
£300,000,000. Did any one believe that with such an ex-
penditure during that period there had not been mal-ad-
ministration, seeing that they had now only 29 line-of-battle
ships efficient enough for actual war ? The navy of France
was a very small one; but the country had learnt to its as-
tonishment that-its own navy was still smaller, whereas it
ought to be large enough to defend it againet all the powers
of the world combined. Had the money been all properly
expended, there would be at least twenty-five sail-of-the-
line more than there were. As estimates were proposed in
that house, it was impossible to pay proper attention to
them. Scarcely had one vote been proposed when they
passed on to another. Only the other nighthe left thehouse
for a short period to get his copy of the army estimates, and
while he was absent four important votes were agreed to.
(Laughter.) Now, if these estimates were submitted to
such a committee as he proposed they should be, they
would undergo a thorough investigation. What he pro-
posed was, that a committee consisting of five members
should be appointed by the Speaker. He had no doubt
that, if his proposal were acceded to, efficient men would be
selected to condwit the inquiry, and as to the time which
would be occupied, he was confident that the whole investi-
gation might be completed within ten or twelve days.
Having compared the present estimates with those of former
years, all he could make out was, that every item was
doubled, and that some items were more than doubled, as
indeed must be the case when the total was £9,800,000.
Moreover, the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty had intimated that some additional votes would be
required, and these would probably bring up the aggregate
to nearly £11,000,000. The expenditure upon the French
navy last year was little more thau £5,000,000. How did it
happen that France, with half the expenditure incurred in
this country, had at that moment a navy superior to their
own ? Of the £9,800,000 only £3,500,000 was for the wages,
victualling, and clothing of the seamen. All the remaining
expenditure came under the head of stores, and so on. If
the house would not inquire with regard to the various
items, it was in fact useless to have separate votes ; it would
be much more intelligible if the Government simply said,
" We want £9,000,000," or £10,000,000, as the case might
be, " and we propose that amount." He had obtained from
persons employed in the dockyards, information to the effect
that a great deal of timber was being sold at almost any
price, because it had become rotten and unfit for use. The
right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) dwelt the othernight
upon the fact that there were several ships waiting to be
manned. This appeared strange, as the seamen in the
navy were in many respects better off than those in the
merchant service ; but a distinguished naval officer with
whom he had conversed on the subject said he thought one
of the princiyal causes of this difficulty was the system of
flogging in the navy. Many years ago the right hon. bart.
the member for Carlisle reduced the naval expenditure to
£4,500,000 ; it continued at that amount for seven years,
and the navy was in an efficient state. There were at pre-
sent 341 admirals, or rather more than an admiral and a half
for every ship. In 1846-7, before this extravagant system
of increasing the admirals commenced, the number was
only 153 ; it had gone on increasing ever since, and the pay
of the admirals now amounted to £55,000 per annum.
When the right hon. bart. the member for Carlisle was at
the head of thenavy there were two generals and six colonels
of marines, costing the country £4740 ; now there were 34
generals and 10 colonels of marines, costing the country
£24,700. He did not believe there were more than four or five
of those officers on board ship. Some were in dockyards where
their services were by no means requisite. With regard to the
construction of vessels, there was less reason for him now to
trouble the house, because Lord C. Paget had, in a very able
speech, a few nights ago, conclusively shown that a case
existed for inquiry into the state of the navy. He believed
that if the system had been adopted of referring these esti-
mates to a committee of the house, millions of public money
would have been saved. The hon. member concluded by
moving that the naval estimates be referred to a' select com-
mittee.

Sir H. VERNEY seconded the motion. The only
ground of objection, as he understood it, upon which the
Government opposed the motion was that the present was a
time of considerable change in the navy. He wished to
know whether there would be any objection to lay upon the
table a statement of the past expenditure in the navy. Even
if the right hon. gentleman's objections to a select com-
mittee might be valid, he did not see what objections there
could be to give this information.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY very much concurred with his
hon. friend the member for Lambeth in his views, but he
doubted whether the reference would not be too wide a one.
He took that opportunity of remarking on the unsatisfac-
tory way in which the estimates were made up. For in-
stance, in the votes there would be found an item of
£178,000 for excess of expenditure over the amount voted in
the year 1857-58. Now, the fact was that in that year
1828,000 was the excess of expenditure over the amount
voted. He could not understand why these estimates did
not appear in the votes of this year. No doubt unforeseen
emergencies must from time to time arise, but a due watch
ought to be kept over the expenditure of moneys voted. He
was afraid this was a function not exercised by the house so
strictly as it ought to be, and in order to its discharge an
improvement in making out the estimates was desirable.
He thought it would be a very useful step to have a com-
mittee on this subject.
Mr. LINDSAY thought that the only effect of the motion
before the house would be to take the responsibility of
passing the estimates from the shoulders of the Govern-
ment, and to cast it upon those of a committee upstairs.
Colonel SYKES thought it the imperative duty of the
house to see its votes duly applied. He found that from
183.5 to the present time the votes for the navy had gra-
dually
increased. In 1832 the vote was £4,245,000. The
estimate for the present year was £9,000,000. Thus the
votes had more than doubled. Was not that a subject for
inquiry, and if not some reason ought to be shown why it
was not. And this increase had been accompanied by no
similar increase in our naval power. It was not until the
year 1855 that there was an actual increase in the number
of vessels, and then the increase was only in gunboats.
Admiral WALCOTT objected to the appointment of a
committee, for it would interfere with the responsibility of
the executive, and it would be very expensive, and without
any adequate result. He could not but recommend to the
house that the Surveyor-General ought to have a seat at
the Board of Admiralty; this would enable him to advance
his views there, and would in the end prove most bene-
ficial to the country. The noble lord who addressed the
house so effectively the other night fell into one or two
errors. He spoke of the San Fioreuzo as a perfect model
of a ship. Nowit happened that that vesselwas not finished
as a ship, but turned into a screw steamer. Other errors
of this kind occurred in the noble lord's speech.
Sir F. BARING was convinced that it was desirable for
an inquiry to take place into the expenditure on the navy,
but he did not assent to any step which took the discussion
of these matters out of thehands of the house. On the whole
he thought that the estimates should be discussed in the
house, and under the supervision of the Government. But
there was another reason at the present moment for not de-
laying the estimates. They had heard statements, not of a
very comforting nature, as to the state of our fleet ; and
therefore it was expedient that the, means of putting things
right should be given to the Government with as little delay
as possible. No doubt they would have inquiry, and no one
was more anxious for inquiry than himself, for it was not
agreeable for past Lords of the Admiralty to hear, night
after night, repeated attacks directed against the naval ad-
, ministration of the last ten years. Sir Baldwin Walker
was also, he was assured, most anxious for inquiry. Now,
with respect to the charge which had been made of
neglect in providing screw liners and of perpetually altering
ships, it should be recollected that when that description of
ship was first proposed for the navy, there was great diver-
sity of opinion as to which was the best form. It was some
time before the proper form was decided on, and when it was
the Agamemnon was produced, and he believed every one
would acknowledge her to be a fine ship. It was next pro-
posed to take the Windsor Castle and to cut her in two, and
the Admiralty was laughed at for making the experiment.
But the Windsor Castle was launched on the day the Duke
of Wellington died, and her Majesty ordered that the ship
should be called the Duke of Wellington. That ship, which
was then altered at an expense of about £12,000, was now
the famous Wellington, the finest screw liner in the navy.
Mr. BENTINCK opposed the motion, considering that
nothing could be more detrimental to the interests of the
navy than to have a committee of inquiry into its manage-
ment, presided over by the hon. member for Lambeth.
Lord H. VANE objected to the motion as relieving the
Government of a responsibility which of right belonged, to
them. At the same time he must admit that the recent dis-
cussions in that house respecting the navy had created an
immense amount of interest throughout the country.
Lord C. PAGET rose merely to disclaim any intention of
making any attack on Sir B. Walker. No man had more
respect for Sir B. Walker than himself; and, besides, he
believed that it was only within a very recent period that
Sir B. Walker had the privilege of ordering the slightest
alteration in the works.

Sir J. PAKINGTON thought that the house would
concur with the hon. member for Norfolk and the right
hon. member for Portsmouth, and refuse to accede to the
motion. He trusted, also, that the .house would remem-
ber the anecdote told by the latter respecting the Duke
of Wellington, as showing that the alterations so much
complained
of? sometimes led to good results. The
speech of the hon. member for Lambeth had been of a most
discursive character, but there was one or two points in it to
which he must advert. The hon. member had accused him
(Sir J. Pakington) of admitting that he had discovered great
maladministration in the dockyards. He had admitted no
such thing. What he had said was, that on coming into
office he had discovered a gigantic expenditure, and he had
appointed a commission, which commission was now busily
engaged in investigation, and he trusted that its investiga-
tions would lead to some very beneficial alterations. There
was being prepared a statement of the expenditure of the
dockyards for the last 11 years, and when it was prepared
he would, of his own accord, lay it on the table. The hon.
baronet the member for Buckingham had asked him whe-
ther he had any objection to giving retrospective inforina-
lion. He did not mean then to pledge himself, but he could
assure the hon. baronet that he had no objection to giving
such information, or to inquiry, provided that such inquiry
did not impede the public service. The hon. member for
Evesham had complained of the supplementary estimates
having been introduced in an irregular manner. He begged
, to inform the hon. member that the supplemental estimates
had been. moved and noticed in the most deliberate and re-
gular manner. With respect to the statement of the hon.
and
gallant member for Aberdeen, that he (Sir J. Palring-
ton)' had advocated our being without a Channel fleet, he
denied
that he had ever made such an assertion. On the
contrary, he had endeavoured to show that we were by no
means badly off in that particular. He trusted that the
house would reject this motion the inquiry which
he had himself instituted. Considering the great additional
amount of duty which was now pressed upon the Admi-
ralty, it was to be hoped that the house would see the pro-
priety of leaving its action as unrestricted and unfettered
as possible. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE thought the house was pretty well
agreed as to the expediency of sending the estimates to a
select committee, but after the serious charges which had
been brought by the noble and gallant lord (Lord 0, rage%