The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-13 00:00:00

whole measure as to its principle would combine to destroy its
framework and all its parts in committee. How far that frame-
work and these parts could be preserved in committe• might be
determined when it was known that those who declared. their

anxiety to go into committee had denounced the measure as
one of iniquity.—( Hear, hear.) He might be mistaken in this
supposition ; but at present he could not help expressing it as
his opinion that the measure would become (if the expressed
intentions of Noble Lords were acted on) so altered and so
mutilated, that those who had rigidly framed it and those who
supported it in the other House of Parliament, would not know
their own bandy work.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble and
Learned Lord then went on to observe, that if this commission
were illegal on the grounds which had been stated on the oppo-
site side of the House, there were 57 Commissions which had
been issued in his recollection also illegal. The defence set up
by the Corporations could only be compared to those occur-
rences which took place every day in Westminster Hall in
consequence of the verdict of juries on the decision of a
judge, when the discomfited party almost always asserted
that the witnesses were corrupted, the attorneys bribed, and
the judge partial. The Commissioners, however, had been
charged with unfairness, partiality, faction, and almost cor-
ruption ; and when hey applied to be heard at the bar, their
request was refused with the universal consent of their Lord-
sbips.—(A laugh from the Opposition.) He was really sur-
prised to see their Lordships run away in so childish—he
had almost said, womanish a manner—with the words which
he had used. without attending to or examining the appli-
cation of his argument. He admitted that he had himself
been foremost in desiring that the Commissioners should not
be heard ; but he felt that he was compelled, by a hard and
cruel necessity, to do an act of injustice to these men, or to
sacrifice the measure. He had preferred the former course,
to which their Lordships readily assented ; but the inevitable
consequence of such a decision was that their Lordships were
bound, as honourable men, as honest men, and as Christians,
with the ordinary feelings of justice and charity, to give the
freest, most candid, and liberal construction to the whole con-
duct of those Commissioners who bad been placed in such
unhappy circumstances respecting their defence, by the
avowed wish of their Lordships.—( Cheers.) The Noble
Lord then went on to compare different parts of the evi-
dence taken before the House with the Report of the Com-
missioners, with the view of showing that any descrepanev
which might have appeared was owing to the mode in which
the examinations had been made ; many of the answers ola
tented from the witnesses were obtained partly by suppressing
and partly by perverting what had been stated in the Report
of the Commissioners. The fact was, that if in a corner of
the Bill a small clause had been inserted for the purpose of re-
serving the right of the present town-clerks of the boroughs,
he doubted many of the petitions which had been laid upon
their Lordships' table against the Bill would never have seen
~ the light, and he was at all events confident that the Learned
- Counsel whom they had heard at their Lordships' bar would
have lost the opportunity of displaying much of the eloquence
which had so much delighted their Lordships.—( Hear, hear.)
Another point was that attacks had been made, by the mode of
taking the evidence, upon the characters of many individua's,
as in the cases of Mr. INlarriot, Mr. Fisguard, and othe, s.
He had expected when those gentlemen were attacked that
their evidence would be impugned, but so far was that from '
being the case, that after the attacks made upon those gen-.
tlemen it was admitted that everything they said was strictly
tom.—( Hear, hear.) But admitting that those who gr,e
evidence before the Commissioners were opposed to the
Corporations, at the very most all that could be said was,
that what spiteful men, and men who were enemies to t' .c
Corporations said, unspiteful men who were avowedly a_a'.
;admittedly friendly to the Corporatioas admitted to be true.
' Hear, hear.) In his opinion the whole of the chary
brought against the Commissioners, and the proofs broissit
in support of them, were among the most futile ever brow:it
against any set of men employed in a public function.
Mr. Drinkwater, who was one of the best men he had ewer
known, and whom it suited the object of the other party to
set down as a Whig—he was glad by the bye to hear that
Drinkwater was a Whig, for during the time he ( Lord
Brougham) bad been in the Court of King's Bench, he 1,..1
never known that to be the case—
I.ord LYNDHURST here rose, and, after some inter-
ruptiod, said he wished to answer an observation
made
the Noble Viscount.—( Loud cries of " Oh, oh !")
Lord BROUGHAM said it was not a very usual cow
for one Noble L,-,rd to rise and interrupt another in order t,)
answer observations :raade by a third Noble Lord ; but
supposed his Noble Friend wished him to take breath.— ( A
laugh.) But with regard to Mr. D:inkwater, it did not ;-
nit's, in this case whether he was Whig or Tory but if he l. -u!
become a Whig, all he (Lord Brougham) should say was, ti.r,t
he was happy he had got to the right side of the question. A
Aiore flimsy charge then that brought against Mr. Drinhsr.'t i-
lk; had never heard. It hal been said that he had taken ic
formation from Fisguard out of court. Was not that his dot,
lie was bound to get information wherever and whenever
could. Inquirers were bound to hear all infetreers whenever
they chose to give their information ; but they were at the
same time hound not to decide upon that information until th -y
had taken evil" nee upon it in open court ; and that was joist
what was done by Mr. Drinkwater. He took the suggestions
given by Mr. Fisguarl; he then examined those: sugge-ahta
in open court, and after that examination he made his repr,rt.
rhea he had been accused of refusing to put information
his report that had been given by other parties. But whit
vas he fact ? The party in question spoY.c of improvements
isaa taken vlace after the inquiry had bnca elosed
(Hear, hear.) Was it to be expected that the Cotaen;ssiout
would alter what he had done before? Was he to open up Lis
Report merely upon the faith of a private letter delivered to
him in the room. It was plain that, if he had done so,
there would have been some room for complaint ; but as the
case stood there was none. He would not go further iz:to
cases, but he thought he had gone far enough to vindicate the
Commissioners from the charges brought against them. It
he had not, no tedium, no lassitude, r.o impatience upon tip:
part of their Lordships would prevent him from going furtln r.
—( Hear, hear.) He had a deed of justice to perform in d?-
fending those gentlemen who had been accused unjustly be-
hind their backs. He was staying execution on charges
brought against the characters of eighteen men, who were as
honourable and high-principled as any of their Lordships;
and not only was he justified in calling upon their Lordships
to hear the vindication of those gentlemen, but he would not
be justified if he did not insist upon being heard until such
time as he might deem that he had perfectly succeeded in that
object.—( Hear, hear.) But having done so, he bad merely
to add, that be had thought it his duty to watch the whole
progress of the inquiry before their Lordships, and accordingly
be had not been absent for a single moment during the whole
time it was proceeding, in order that he might be able to
,make up his mind upon the charges brought against the
Commissioners, for, having been in some measure the author
of the Commission, and having throughout watched its for-
tunes with anxiety from the period when it was in embryo
till the present time, when it should be arriving at mate-
city, although he feared it was only approaching its dissolu-
tion—( Hear, hear)—he had felt anxious that nothing, either
as connected with its authors, or with those who were to make
the inquiries—that no fictitious rottenness, or no misconduct
in any man, should defeat its object. Though he was not
.strictly responsible for the appointments of all the Commis-
sioners, and though some of those Commissioners were not
known personally to him, yet having been appointed on the
recommendation of persons to whom he gave his confidence,
he felt that he should be answerable for the appointment of
the persons appointed to conduct this great inquiry, upon
which, the hopes of the country were settled; and if any one
.of them had failed to discharge his duty, if a wrong choice Lad
been made, if unjust men had been sent, and that" they by any
ill-judged conduct had tended to cast discredit on the inquiry,
he should have been the first to get rid of the contamination of
such Commissioners.—(Cheers.) He should have heard their
case and have judged of it, and if he had found that they had
tabglected the duty entrusted to them, he should have been the
first to have abandoned the men who had thus abandoned
their duty. He therefore claimed to himself the merit of
haling watched scrupulously the progress of this inquiry, and
the reult of that watchfulness was this : he had examined all
the alloys, as well as the statements made in support of them ;
he had hears the charges, without the persons accused having
of answering them ; but on the ex parte
bad an opportun:4l
statement of the a,..nusers, his mind was made up in favour of
an acquittal of those Co' mmissioners. These charges, if proved,
wouldqhave contaminated t:.'o sill
—not but that the Bill had
higher grounds upon which it v-zras founded, and which would'
have recommended it to the cot:ntry—still there would bo
contamination if such charges were proved ; but he felt bound
to say that he did not see the shadow of a shade of proof of
any of them.—( Cheers.) One word as to what bad been said
upon the subject of the feeling in the country in regard
to this Bill. It had been said that this feeling had been
excited by the Government ; and in proof of that point it was
stated that Lord John Russell had franked two letters which
were sent down to Weymouth, and in consequence of which
tneetinocrs had been called. But was it said that Lord John
Russell knew what was the purport of those letters?
Might he not have franked them, as no doubt many of their
Lordships did, without knowing what they contained, or from
whom they came ? But no ; Lord John Russell had franked
two letters, and therefore it was said that he had agitated
Weymouth.—( Hear, hear.) But had Manchester been agi-
tatezd? In Manchester, the petition in favour of that Bill was
signed by 23,000 persons in ten hours ; and would, most pro-
bably, lime been signed by 30,000, if three or four days could
have been given. That was a proportion of the inhabitants
of Manchester : for, including women and children, it an-
swered to a population of 80,000 souls. Then, in Leeds,
16,000 persons had signed the petition, and 20,000 might as
easily have been found to sign it, but that they went away
under the impression that, having attended the meeting at
which the petition was agreed to, there was nothing more to
do. This number answered to a population of 50,000 souls.
--(Hear, hear.) And at Leicester, 9,500 persons signed the
petition which he had this day presented, but which had been
refused by their Lordships. Leicester was the borough in
which they were told that the Corporation was so very good,
and the inhabitants so very well satisfied ; in which they were
told that the present state of the Corporation gave the greatest
satisfaction, and that only a few discontented persons were op-
posed to them ; yet they had had a proof that night, that four
out of five of the inhabitants were not so satisfied in the happy
and gratified borough of Leicester. From all these circum-
stances, be could draw but one conclusion, and that was, that
the people were discontented with the present state of the
Corporations, and wished for an alteration in them ; and what
was more, that this feeling was all but universal._( Hear,
bear.) But if all the people were as contented with the pre-
sent state of the corporations as it was the wish of the corp.
rators to have it believed, he would ask why they were so much
afraid of new elections ? He had asked some of the witnesses
if the corporations were poauler, and not seeing his drift,
the answer always was *a the affirmative ; but when he
asked why they should be grii4 pf qew elections, the

answer always was, that they would never be re-elected.
The town-clerk of Exeter was the only one who said that all
the magistrates and other officers of the Corporation of that
place would be re-elected by the new constituency proposed
in this Bill. The Learned Counsel thought that he went too
far for them, for he was asked " Did you mean to say that
all would be re-elected ?" If this were the case, there would
evidently be no change of which they could complain. They
would have no argument as to the revolutions to be effected
in any corporation. He (Lord Brougham) did not, however,
form his judgment from the opinion of this honest man, but
from the feelings generally entertained by those who now ad-
ministered the affairs of corporate towns against this measure.
From the hostility they manifested against throwing open the
elections in towns—from their clinging to the old mode of
close election—and from their anxiety to prevent any checks
being established over the public expenditure in these places.
He inferred from their fears of the new system, that they
thought if it prevailed, that instead of support, they would
meet with nothing but hatred and disregard from the rate-
payers. The Bill for Municipal Reform in Scotland passed
through the House upwards of two years ago, although not
without the opposition of the two Noble Earls opposite ; but
since then there had been a total change in the magistracy, in
nearly all the burghs in Scotland. This was a proof of the
degree of satisfaction entertained of the old system by the peo-
ple of Scotland; and yet their Lordships had been told that
this was the case by his Noble Friend, who had that night
said that the people of England were not discontented.
with the present state of the corporations. He hoped that
their Lordships would deal with this Bill in a spirit of can-
dour. He trustedlthat his fears would not be fulfilled
as to the mode in which the Bill would be dealt with. He
could not, however, help entertaining some feelings of alarm
after what had fallen from the Noble Duke, the Noble Earl,
and the Illustrious Duke—their language had excited fears
in his mind which he could not express, as to what would be
the fate of the Bill in Committee. He trusted that it would
not only be allowed to proceed into Committee, but his ear-
liest hope and prayer was, tkat it would be allowed to pass,
as nearly as possible, in its present state.—( Hear, hear.)
The amendment was then put.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said, that as it seemed to
be the wish of the House that a division should not take
place in the present stage of the Bill, he would not trouble
their Lordships to divide. He had felt it to he his duty to
record his opinion as to this measure, which would be done
without troubling the House further.
The amendment was then negatived, and the House re-
solved itself into Committee.
The House immediately resumed, and the Committee was
ordered to sit again to• morrow.
The House adjourned at Twelve o'clock.

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