The Sun.
London, England, 1835-09-02 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS

The House of Commons, at an early hour yesterday, re-
sumed the consideration of the amendments of the Municipal
Reform Bill. The first subject on which they entered the
qualification of councillors. Lord John Russell wished t) get
rid of the tests and the list.

" Till the election for the office of councillor took place (said his
Lordship), all the burgesses in the borough should be considered
as on an equality ; and no person should have a right to say, ' I am
on the list of councillors; you are much below me; you are ex-
cluded from the list.' "

He thought that the proof of qualification should not be
demanded, till a person was elected a councillor. His Lord-
, ship proposed that the councillors' list of one-sixth of the bur-
gesses be omitted, and that after the words declaratory of the
1,0001. and 500/. qualifications, the alternative suggested by Sir
Robert Peel be adopted—namely, the being rated to the poor-
rates at 30/. in boroughs of four or more wards, and 151. in
boroughs of less than that number of wards. Most of the
Reformers had strong objections to any qualification whatever;
and Mr. Grote at first said, notwithstanding the alternative
proposed by Sir Robert Peel, he should certainly take the
sense of the House on the question. The Hon. Member for
London afterwards, however, signified that he was disposed
to alter his purpose.
" The principle of qualification had (he said) been adopted by
men whom he respected ; but he must say that the tone of this de-
bate was calculated to have no other effect than to gave the Lords a
power of legislating over this House, and to make the country be-
lieve that this House would not stand by any great principle wi.ich
it had endeavoured to establish. He could not see what the country
had gained by the Reform-WEiCh had in a great m -eas-trre put
an end to the system of filling the House by the nominees of the
Lords, if the other House was to exercise its power in another way
by enabling minorities of the Commons to triumph over decided ma-
jorities of the representatives of the people."
As, however, a division would have the effect of letting it
practically go forth to the country that the principle was less
unpopular in the House than it actually was, he merely pro-
tested against it instead of pressing for a division. An amend-
ment was proposed by Mr. Roebuck that a rating of la
should be the qualification in all cases. The objection gene-
rally urged to this was that it would be useless to propose a qua-
lification which would not be accepted by the Lords. Mr.
D. W. Harvey sarcastically observed, with reference to this
point that—
" Not considering it as a final measure, and looking forward to
final legislation, he did not wish to hazard the Bill ; for it was in
politics, as well as in morals and nature, it could not be foretold
what a day or an hour would bring forth. They could not always
keep up the excitement of the people, or, as the phrase was, they
could not always keep the steam up. It would, indeed, be a great
national evil to lose the Bill, for, at the present rate of legislation,
they could but get through one Bill in a Session.—One Bill (the
Irish Church Reform Bill) bad been lost, and another was in
danger."
On a division, Mr. Roebuck's amendment was lost by a
majority of 271 to 37. Mr. Harvey's observations seemed to
imply that to move their Lordships to consent to any good
Bill, the whole country must be agitated, but that the agi-
tation, though it be sufficient to impel them to do sonic good
against their will, is still not sufficient to extort from them
the requisite amount of good. The Indians drub their deities
when they deem them not sufficiently accommodating; and
it would seem that there are Englishmen who conceive that
the perfection of a Constitution, is to have a branch of the Le-
gislature prone to evil, and only capable of doing good
by compulsion. But some day or other the compelling
body may forget to stop exactly at the required point.
When the people find that they must continually drive
the Lords, they make take it into their head, when the
steam is more than usually powerful, to make one driving serve
for all, and try whether it may not be possible to obtain aHouse
which, without a great expenditure of steam, will work for the
good of the community. Their Lordships_ may depend on it,
that the proceedings of the present Session have sunk deep
into the minds of the people. The remarks of the Reform
Members ought to teach them that, the people are merely
" biding their time," and that if more steam is not at present
applied, it is not from the regard in which their Lordships
are held. The people have, this Session, made a fifty years'
progress in constitutional knowledge. The great question
of presentation to Church livings was, at the special re-
quest of Sir Robert Peel, postponed to this day. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer, while he expressed a strong
determination to resist the principle involved in the amend-
ment of the Lords, gave notice that if the clause were
omitted be should, at a more advanced stage of the Bill,
propose a clause directing. Corporations to sell the Church
property over which they exercised control, and apply
the proceeds to the common uses of the towns. This would of
course obviate the objection, that the members of one Church
ought not to interfere with the concerns of another. But then,
says Sir Robert Peel, some of the Corporations possess very
extensive Church property. The Corporations of Bristol and
Norwich have no fewer than twenty-two livings in their gift;
and under such circumstances he was not sure whether it
would not be better to leave the nomination in the hands of
Dissenters, than to compel the sale of the livings. It would
not indeed surprise us were the Right Honourable Baronet, at
the end of his 24 hours' deliberation, to waive his objection to
the right of the Dissenters to participate in the right of pre-
senting to livings.—Morning Chronicle.

We trust that the Members of the Upper House of Parlia-
ment will not misunderstand the sentiments of the public at the
present crisis. Overlooking the conduct of other parties in
this matter—anxious that one measure of some degree of prac-
tical benefit shall be secured to the country, as the result of the
long Parl a:nentary Session—bat, above all, for the sake of
peace, order, and the quiet and safe progress of Constitutional
Reform, there exists a feeling, a wish, a desire, if possible, to
accept the measure now before Parliament in such a shape as
the proposed alterations and restorations of the Government will
place it. People feel that the measure, thus partially amended
and restored, possesses many important and beneficial fea-
tures ; and for the sake of securing these, and preserving the
peace of' the country, they are willing to give a reluctant con-
sent to other alterations of which they undoubtedly disapprove,
and which nothing but the desire for conciliation would
induce them to agree to. In these feelings we participate.
Dissatisfied as we are with some of the enactments of the Bill,
as modified by the adoption of Lord John Russell's proposi-
tions, we are yet not prepared to say that in the shape in which
it will again be submitted to the Upper House, it will not be a
benefit and a boon to the country. We desire to secure that
amount of benefit, and for this purpose we have gone to
greater lengths than under other circumstances might have
been advisable, to promote, if possible, the tranquil adjustment
of this important question. We have stilled our angry feelings,
and suppressed our own emotions, in deference to paramount
considerations of national utility, and in the hope of being met
by something of a corresponding conduct We are aware that
our motive may be misunderstood ; but, relying on our honest
intentions, we have not shrunk from the odium of acquiescing
in a compromise to a certain extent, believing that by so
doing we were best discharging our duties to the country.
It is now for the Peers to decide whether 'this last effort at
amicable adjustment is to be in vain ; and weighty indeed will
be their responsibility, and great the additional amount of
public odium which they will incur, if they neglect the upper-
, tunity thus offered of securing a peaceful termination to the
collision which they have, most unwisely, as we think, been
tempted to provoke. But let them not, we implore them,
mistake the feelings %A liich prompt these concessions to their
Lordships. Let them not imagine that the public is in-
different or lukewarm upon the subject. We know that
it is not so. We know that any degree of concession
will be most unwillingly, most reluctantly acquiesced
in. We know that we are risking the public approba-
tion in recommending even the least degreee of con-
cession to their Lordships at this moment. We tell
them honestly, that nothing but an overwhelming sense of
of duty compels us to take the line which we have taken, and
to urge upon the acceptance of the country the Bill, modified
and restored in great part as it now is by the Government, and
to bow to certain other alterations, the utility of which we can
never acknowledge. Having thus extended the olive-branch
for their acceptance, we await the result. A short time will
show whether counsels of moderation or of violence still pre-
vail in their Lordships' House. A short time will show whe-
ther prudence, and a desire to conciliate in some degree the
goodwill of the public, actuates their resolves; or whether,
listening only to angry and factious counsels, they are madly
bent upon evincing the utter incompatibility of their own irre-
sponsible privileges with the national welfare, and making
another giant step in the career of public disfavour, and cer-
tain self-destruction.— Morning Chronicle.
We have elsewhere adverted to the proceedings in the
House of Commons last night, and with one exception--a
very important one we allow, if not the most important—they
will be found to agree, in every respect, with the announce-
ments made in this journal during the last week. That ex-
ception is the qualification proposed by the Heuso of Lords
for corporation officers—a qualification so atrocious in every
respect—so iniquitous—so unjust—so unpopular—that there
are no words in the language which we speak, sufficiently
strong to express our utter abhorrence and detestation of its
aristocratic character. We did expect that Lord John Rus-
sell, as the organ, not only of a Liberal Government—but of
the most liberal Government with which any country has ever
been blessed—would have at once announced the determina-
tion of himself and colleagues to stand fast by their own Bill,
instead of leaving the question for reconsideration; but, granting
as we must in justice, that they arc better acquainted with what
they can, and what they cannot do—with what may be the
right, and what may be the wrong, policy, under existing
circumstances,—WC are ready to allow that the course pursued
by Lord John Russell may be the best. Indeed, if the inde-
pendent and unfettered Members of the House of Commons
do their duty, there can be no question that it is the best ; for
it is well, on the one hand, that the Government should prove
its moderate and constitutional character, and, on the other,
that the people—the people's representatives, and the people's
organs—should tell the Lords that they cannot agree to any
but the. smallest qualification which can possibly be named.
The amendment of the Lords is not to be listened to for a
moment ! Perish the Bill sooner than it shall be agreed to—
and perish the Government too, much' as we 'respyet it, if it
shall Hesitate for one moment upon its rejection I He

who shall vote for its adoption is an enemy of tiiiii*OPlki ta4l4'
unworthy of their trust and confidence.—Mornihg .2,lthiertiser.
In a division which took place yesterday in the House of
Commons, on the qualification clause of the Muaici.pal Re,.
form Bill, the majority, composed of the friends of Mi-
nisters and of Conservatives, was enormous, amotuVing to
271, While the out-and-out stiffneckers, belonging t hiefly
to the ultra-Radical section of the House, numbered not
more than the ominous figure of 37. Many of the parties
who voted with Ministers and with Sir Robert
this instance, declared their strong .repugnance to any and
crery qualification. Many deprecated a division on such a
subject, because the votes of those who gave their support
to the clause would be no true index of their sentiments
on the general question of qualification. The element of
true and solid interest on this occasion was the feeling
which, however tardily entertained in some quarters, appeared
to have taken a deep and extensive hold of the house,—namely,
a sense of the necessity for meeting the, other lieouse of - or-
nament in an amicable and peacemaking spirit. To such a
disposition in either assembly of the Legislature there i 3
obviously a far greater value .to be attached than to any
mere opinion, however just, upon even the most serious ques-
tion of particular policy. In it is to be found an evidence,
striking and convincing, that when the constitution of Eng-
land is flung upon its innate resources, when the con,allot of
angry passion is at the highest, when tempest and confusu."
threaten its loudest—then, even at the hour of seeming risk
most imminent, there is a redeeming power, a moral force,
alive and watchful for the national safety, not to be found, per-
haps in the records of courts above or courts below, or in
any text book of our written• laws, but paramount in the
minds of Englishmen. The most sullen menaces directed
against the integrity of the British Constitution proceeded
lately, we grieve to assert, from men in stations the dignity
and responsibility of which ought to have made them 'zealous-
and devoted guardians of the Monarchy, instead of mean -ca-
terers for those who seek only to destroy it - There -is
prima facie reason to be satisfied that their purpose was 'to' --
try how far they would be seconded in their 61u§teririir:'
against the House of Lords. They 'failed-Ld i.strace:; •
fuly, we should have said, had not the attempt been ten
times more disgraceful than the failure. On the bad feelheits
of Parliament they could not work 'snebessfulr)%; ;evil:og
then, to prudence, if not to princit;ie, they tried its better feel-
ings by a suggestion of honourable and becoming counsels,
and they have prospered in the enterprise. The candid and
considerate deelarations of Sir Robert Peel, ''‘Vhci:Einsg fl.Side`""'"`
all narrow party spirit, and fearlessly censured those-acts of the
House of Lords which in his inward mind he could not .
called forth from others a corresponding frankness, and put to
flight in a moment a whole legion of distrusts and asperities-
- which had hitherto sat brooding -over the debate. Mr. O'Con-
nell voted with Ministers. We are slow to suspect that learned
person of having been drawn aside from his peculiar calculations
by any weak sympathy with any honest impulse in the hearts
of those about him ; and therefore we • wait for some further,
possibly indirect and undesigned, development of the motives of
this gentleman for his unexceptionable vote of yesterday, before
we say more capon the subject; but few will be less surprised than
ourselves at the daily and rapid multiplication of proofs—not to
be mistaken by the very rudest and blindest of his ad
herents—that the connexion between him and the Mel-
bourne Government has already attained a ripeness, and become
pregnant with consequences, which the present Members of
the O'Connell tail are now as ill prepared to believe as they
will by and bye to tolerate or forgive them. However, with
the vote of yesterday, the people of England ought to i.e
pleased, less, as we have said, for its establishment of a quali-
fication, or of a dozen qualifications, than for the guarantee it
affords of a strong and just reluctance in the House of Corea
mons to pursue, to any dangerous or prejudicial extent, a dif-
ference with another branch cf the Legislature, wines such an
evil can be avoided, by a recourse to sober and far-sighted
means, not sacrificing the rights or betraying the confidence of
the people. - No long series of transactions can be. carried on by
the concurrence of separate bathes of men without a frequent
resort to compromise. The vote of yesterday, as well as much
of the introductory speech of Lord John Russell, and a stilt
larger proportion of that of Sir R. Peel, signified a desire
to give un something that something might be obtained. The
House of Lords, no doubt, must be swayed by a regard for the
public welfare, and for its own credit, to act towards the re-
presentatives of the people on similar views of sound policy and
good sense. It is plain that the only point of the least mo-
ment which remains yet substantially unadjusted, is that of the
admission of Dissenters to the patronage of the Church of
England livings, and on that we can most conscientiously affirm
that the argument of Sir It. Peel seems to us altogether unan-
swerable, when he illustrates it by appealing to the Dissenters
themselves, how they would like to have members of the Church
of England exercising a judgment (necessarily imperfect and
fallacious) upon the several qualifications of dissenting cler-
gymen? The legal capacity of Dissenters to purchase
advowsons, &c., is no sufficient answer to the objections ;
because they can have no conceivable reasons for
vesting their money in such descriptions of property,
unavailable to members...of the Dissenting
...congrega-

tions ; whereas this Bill, as framed, actually invests
them with the property, and gives them no one qtiali-
fication but mere legal power for a fit, or competent, of dis-
creet exercise of it. There was, however, - a .suggestion
thrown out by Mr. S. Rice, which is intended to remove
much of the difficulty of this important question, and to recoil.,
cile conflicting opinions without any compromise of principle.
He proposed to introduce a clause directing the Corporations
to sell the church property they possessed, and apply the
proceeds thereof to the common use of the town. . This pro-
position was apparently received with satisfaction by both
sides of the House ; and though Sir Robert Peel, with that
discretion which becomes the leader of a great party, would
not at-once commit himself to the approbation of a scheme im-
perfectly developed, and obviously liable to the objections
stated by him, yet he showed a decided disposition to consider
the subject with care and impartiality. Sure we are that his
party may safely follow the decision of a guide -at onco so
calm and so sagacious.—Tunes.
The miserable renegade print, whose very name, coupled
as it is with all that is treacherous and degrading in the his-
tory of journalism, excites an insurmountable feeling of
loathing and disgust among honest men of all parties, and can-
not be pronounced, by- Reformers in particular, without ac-
companying sentiments of indignant abhorrence—the unblush-
ing Swiss of the daily Press—the vile old Times, has been
laying out its baits for the silly gudecons who may be fools
enough to snap at them. Our " unfOrtunate Ministers" are to
be first frightened by the new thunder from the old factory,
and then soothed with hoaied phrases and offers of " Conser-
vative" support to save theM from the puddle which tine terrific
storms of the Printing-house-square mechanic have created
around them—the Times has discoveied that the Ministers are
really " gentlemen with something which they must be afraid to
lose ;"—positively it admits that they have " an intertst apart
from that of anarchy"---qualified, however, by "that is, if
they will but see it." They cannot wish for a coalition with
. the Peers—(tho Times, no longer ago than last year, declared
that every honest Reformer would regard this collision as
"the best of consummations ")—and from all these horrors
they arc to be saved by a strong muster of Coeseevatives, who
are to rescue them from their present " uncouth" supporters,
in order, we presume, to place them under the safeguard and
protection of the more polished gentlemen of the Carlton
Club, and Printing-house-square. In other words, as
pure Toryism is found to be at a discount just now,
and as the masters of the mercenary apostate sees no chance
of setting up a Ministerial shop on their own account,
the gentry of the Carlton Club would like very much to
knock up a sort of Mock Liberal Government in the shape
of a coalition, of which the Times would, with much Fro-
priety, become the reputable organ. Having denounced coali-
tions so violently last e ear, it is only right that the Times
should be the organ of a coalition Government this year. It
is true every person with the smallest portion of common
sense must perceive that the entire forfeiture of re'.
tional confidence, and the irremediable loss of public character,
would be the certain consequence to those who should listen
for a moment to any such insidious propositions as we have-
supposed, for a compromise of this kind between the present
leaders and the enemies of the people ; but though the
treachery would be fatal to other participatcrs, the Times, and
the unprincipled masters of that unprincipled journal, would
at all events be no losers, because, having no character, they
could not be worse off than they are at present; whilst they
would at any rate have had the satisfaction of bringing down
those who hare characters to the same degraded level with
tleeMselves. So that, however shallow and transparent the
plot may be, there is a degree of low and malicious
cunning, quite worthy of the polluted source from which it
emanated. Why, the very slightest commendation of the
Times, however modified or contingent, is enough to sicken
and disgust an honest Statesman ; and to suppose that the
present Ministers—men who everywhere at this moment are
looked up to with confidence and regard by their fellow-
countrymen—a regard and confidence arising from a know-
ledge of that straightforward and honourable conduct which
they have hitherto pursued, and which we have endeavoured
to place in its proper light before the eyes of the public—
to suppose that Gentlemen in their situation, with nothing but
their.character and that public confidence which is based upon
it to support theM (and it is, undoubtedly, sufficient to sup-
port them,) against the host of enemies which a , course
of sincere reforming policy is sure to raiso against any Mi-
nister who is honest enough to profess and act upon it—
to suppose that Ministers would consent to listen to such
proposals, is neither more nor less than to suppose them
mad, and consulting as to the propriety and fitness of self-
destruction. No, no I The Ministers are not the fools the
Times would take them for ; they are not to be dragged
through the mire in which-our Contemporary delights to wal-
low—they have no desperate case to make the best of—they
have no bankrupt reputation and discovered treachery to gloss
over and conceal—they have every motive to persevere in an
upright and fearless policy ; and the very feelers put forth by
the renegade Times arc alone sufficient to convince there of
the dangers and destruction which would await any other
course. Hawing forfeited its character of a leader and a guide,
the Times still remains in the shape of a beacon and a scare- "
crow, and its Machiavellian counsels are valuable as warning::l
and, require only an intelligent'reader and a proper inteepwitee.,,
tion.—Mornieg Chronicle. •

. .
Every one must have observed Low common an occurrence
it is in the natural world for a storm to bliwv"rciver,' as thb'l
phrase is. A process of the same kind sccms-ibout,Acttakct
place in the political horizon. For son.e days. buelt.the..public.
Journals have been muttering threats of collision anil.Contul- .
sion, when all of a sudden, and just i 5 t iVere
the "encounter in mid air," a light wiad springs up and dis-
sipates the angry appearances. Such, at least, is our impres-
sion of the result of last night's debate upon the amendments
of the Lords to the Municipal ficfcrm Bill. That debate
was mare moderato in its tone than the prep,.r..ilons
us reason- to expect, and the course pursued by his
Government was more reional than could be inferrA cretin tins

LONDON,
WEDNESDAY EVENING, SEPTEMBER 2, 1835.

The difficulties which Ministers fondly imagine they
have got rid of, they will find but too soon they have
increased a hundred-fold, by their concessions to the
amendments of the House of Lords—concessions
which the country, when it has recovered from the first
shock of surprise, will look on in no other light than
as a sheer juggling compromise. From the phrase
'• resolution," which Mr. SPRING RICE put forth
with such parade the other night, and the indirect
threats which Lord J. RUSSELL paraded with equal
ostentation, the country was prepared for a decided
stand on the part of Ministers, on the main principles
of the Corporation Bill. It could never have dreamed
for an instant that such a show of valour was meant
merely as a screen for cowardice. It felt convinced
that long and painful experience had at length opened
the eyes of the Whigs to a sense of their true position;
and taught them the folly—the madness—of truck-
ling to a faction, which, so far from being ap-
peased by concessions, is in reality furnished
by them with fresh means of annoyance. But recent
events have shown the folly of such a conviction. The
more the Tories kick, bully,, and trample on this spa-
niel party, the more disposed it feels to lick the dust
beneath their feet. Look at its present position.
Can anything be more abject ? Notwithstanding it