The Sun.
London, England, 1835-02-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 1535.

Melbourne's Ministry, but more especially myself, an! some with
whom I was supposed to be connected. It was said, and said over
again, and it has been repeated within a very few days, that
I was attempting to deprive the Protestants of Ireland in certain parishes
of the assistance of a Protestant minister ; that I intended to have them
dismissed, and to abolish the tithes; and it was further stated
that Lord Melbourne had differed from me upon those
points. Now I must say that the whole of that statement is a complete
invention.—(Great cheering.) With respect to the Irish Church
it was a question, as I have already stated, that was necessary
to bring before the consideration of Parliament ; the individual
member of the Cabinet to whom it specially belonged to prepare the
materials for the consideration of the subject was Lord Duncan.
non, the right hon. the secretary of state for the home depart.
inent ; and whatever papers I have seen upon the subject, I did
not see, till they came from the hands of Lord Duncannon, and were
already printed. With respect to the further statement that there was a
difference of opinion between the Marquis of Lansdowne and myself, I have
this to state, that both previously and since, it does so happen that the
members of the Cabinet with whom I have had connection on this sub-
ject were Mr. Spring Rice and my Lord Lansdowne ; and it does so hap.
pen that if there were any members of the Cabinet with whom I agreed,
the Marquis of Lansdowne and Mr. Spring Rice were those two.
But Sir, I will go further, and without stating anything particular
on entering into any specific proposition, I may say that the principle
which all agreed in was this, that the funds of the Protestant
Church ought, in the first place, to be applied to give religious in-
struction to the Protestant population ; and when that was fully provided
for, it was lawful, politic, and proper to apply the surplus to the general
education of the people—(lmmense cheering for some moments)—in.
euding Churchmen, Catholics, and Dissenters.—(Renewed cheering )
What the plan would have been—of course he could not mention any
specific proposition, because the late government maintained, and truly,
that they could not affirm any proposition—they would not bring
forward a measure of so much importance before parliament but by
means of a Commission— (Hear, hear) They had truly and properly
ascertained the facts upon which they were to legislate---(Cheers.) At
the same time I must say that although it would be extremely improper,
and would be rash and hasty, before you had fully ascertained all the
y et I do think that the use of a commission upon all those great
questions is to ascertain the true fact, yet upon all the general principles
aul may be agreed—(cheers)—and the evidence taken by the Commission
allows those principles to be applied in the details. Sir, the right
lion. gentlemen has left out all mention of those reports, bat I have
thought it my duty to trouble the house with these details, because,
although now at the meeting of Parliament all these rumours have
vanished, yet I know they were started with a view to disparage the
lie Administration, and to influence the elections which were then
going on—(Loud cheering)—and that a noble lord of the other house
of Parliament wrote a letter which was widely distributed in
the country. That letter I would read to the house, were
it not that it was made up of nothing but utter and disgusting
nonsense.—(Great laughter)—The effect of it however was, that the
country could place no confidence in the late Ministry because of
their opinions relative to the Church—and then, Sir, it appears there
is no foundation for those reports.—(Laughter and cheers.) Then came
in place cf those charges another charge, which was, that they were
al ways willing to give in to the projects of the hon. and learned member
for Dublin, and were adopting all his views with respect to Ire-
land!—(Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) The evidence of
that is they quote a passage from a letter in which heshows his utter dislike
and distrust of many members of that very government he was charged
with truckling to. Then, Sir, Ido ask, these grounds being frivolous—.
these grounds being utterly false—on what his Majesty was induced to
dissolve the Parliament? It is the King's prerogative to dismiss his
Ministers—it is the King's prerogative to dissolve the Parliament; but
I do again ask, whether there was any just ground for the exercise of
the prerogative, and for which so little reason has been given in this
ease ? Evidently we know that it was not for want of confidence in
his Majesty's Ministers by the House of Commons, because the
House of Commons had no such confidence in those Ministers as to
induce the right hon. baronet to confess that the majority was so much
in their favour, thatJie would be unable to carry on the government.
Ile said that he hid not more than 130 votes as the house was then con.
stitoted, and that therefore, he found he could not
go on with it.—(Loud cheering.) Well then what were the
just reasons for resorting to the expedient ? Was commerce declining—
w..s internal order at an end—or was there any other branch of
the legislature in danger, which made it necessary to resort to
ill's measure ?—(Loud cheering.) Why, Sir, the King's speech
does not contain a single word to favour such a supposition.
The King's speech does away with all this—half of it was filled
with testimonies to the measures and success of the late Govern-
ment—(Loud and continued cheers from the Opposition)—with
testimonies to the prosperity and tranquillity of the country.
which, under the late ministry had existed up to last November

whilst the other half contains commendations of prospective objects,
which were part of those measures they intended to carry into effect.—

Loud and continued cheering.) Well, Sir, I do sayrthat the right

hon. baronet, both as to his office and the responsibility of his office,
did assume a responsibility in dissolving parliament most extraordinary
at that crisis of affairs.—(Cheers.) For let it be recollected that

there was no ground to state, these false rumours being set aside,
why the country should elect another house of Commons different
from the last, and there was no ground to state why the
displeasure of the King should be fixed on that house of Commons.

The right hon. baronet says that it is usual for the King to dissolve the
Parliament. I believe there is scarce an instance of such a prerogative
being exercised, except when it was found impossible to carry on the Go-
vernment without it. Such an excuse cannot be urged here. I believe also
that in 1784, the period to which so many allusions have been made,
Mr. Pitt was compelled to resort to that measure, in consequence of
the strong and settled opposition which he everywhere met with, and
after a long and painful trial that he was obliged to resort to the sense
of the country to ascertain whether they approved of his government.
In the other instances Ministers met the Parliament, and having sub-
mitted their measures and their projects, they asked them to acquiese in
those which they proposed. If the house of commons refused their
confidence, and that the government believed the country was of a dif-
ferent opinion from their representatives, they then dissolved
the parliament. I do not say that the right hon baronet was not

somewhat differently situated. I admit that the Duke of Wellington
having taken to himself an authority which in my opinion was

_ .
strictly unconstitutional—(Cheers)--having invested himself with all
the offices of the State, and having made himself and the Lord Chancel-
lor the sole Councillors of the State, placed the hon. baronet in
a somewhat different position, and I candidly confess that aoinething
of obloquy would have attached to him, if he declined the situation
which he was called upon to take. I think the case was really one which
called for legislative interference to rescue him from the dilemma in which
he was involved; and I would recommend the gentlemen interested
with respect to the impressment of seamen, to introduce a clause making
it pens' for any press-gang to enter the Pope's dominions, and take there.
from any gentleman to make him prime minister of England.
(Cheers and laughter.) I really am of opinion that gentlemen should be
permitted to pursue their journey through his holiness's territory without
molestation from the press-gangs to whom I have alluded. But I admit
that the right hon. baronet, not having been in England at the time of
the dissolution of the late government, cannot be held accountable
for that act. He was on his return placed in a situation which

I confess it was difficult to avoid.—(Cries of " hear, hear, hear...)
Wel then, admitting this, I still maintain that the right hon. baronet
should have met the Parliament, should have submitted his projects,
and had his measures fully discussed, and then, if confidence was not
given to him, he might have appealed to the people, if he thought
their opinions would be more favourable than those of their
representatives. He might have advised bis Majesty to exercise his
prerogative if he found that a factious opposition had been given to his
Government. The right hon. gentleman has assumed that I would
destroy the Church establishment in Ireland. I think in that he has
failed. I think it would be difficult to prove that the grounds upon
which I went were other than those of applying to the general

purposes of education in that country the surplus revenues of the Church.
Whenever it falls to my lot to support a vote in favour of the
Church of England, I always do it upon the feeling that
it does actually afford religious instruction to the poorer
classes of this country ; but when we come to the Church of Ireland,
the benefit of that seems to be, as it has been facetiously, but too
correctly, described, having a country gentleman in a black coat.
With respect to another subject mentioned in the amendment—that of
the corporations—l think it now necessary to declare some de-
cision, that the country may know what they have to expect—
(Cheers)—that the country may know we are going to apply the prin-
ciples of popular control and a vigilant superintendence over those funds
that have been mismanaged.—) Hear.) I do not wish to be invidious, but
I cannot separate the hon. gentleman from the party with, which he has
chosen to identify himself. I cannot forget that the fortresses of their power,
and that to which they clung during many years past, have been those
very abuses of corporations which they now talk of correcting. The

tight hon. gentleman has talked of opposition on this ground being in.
consistent. I say, does he go beyor.d the opinions that we entertained
as ministers, or does he bind himself to go only as far as we as
ministers would have done P The right honourable gentleman

has talked of embarrassing the Government, and he pursued

an opposition during the four years I was in office, and he Zll
recollect that I was not at all disposed to attack any opinion tot the
sake of opposition. I do remember that when we were attend-
ing night after night in large numbers, to be prepared for
opposition, that the right honourable Gentlemen got up and
called the House to mark that we had indulged in re-
venge and bitter personal Invective. -- (Great cheering.)
An, from whom did that personal invective proceed ? From the very
men who now support the right hon. baronet—(loud and continued

.
cheering) Nor was this all—a very elaborate, and very ingenious,
and very severe comparison was instituted respecting the conduct
of Protestant gentlemeu—(hear, hear)—conceding the measure of
Catholic Emancipation, respecting men who granted such a measure,
and at the same time saying that they had not altered their opinions' as
_ . _

to the justice of that measure. Did that elaborate and severe compari-
son come from a Whig ? No. It proceeded from one of the right hon.
baronet's most zealous Tory supporters.—(Loud cheering.) Another
attack was made on the right hon. gentleman for the granting of the
. .

same measure of Catholic Emancipation, and a remonstrance that
the concession of it had not been left in the hands of Mr. Can-

ning.—(Cheers.) You have admitted, said that gentleman, then

addressing the right hon. baronet, that the state of the House of Corn-

mons is the same—that the state of the Catholics is the same—and that

the state of Ireland is the same—and thus having no ground for your

change of opinion, you afford a melancholy example that will have a
direct tendency to destroy the character of all public men ; and, raising
up :.is hands at the conclusion of his address, he exclaimed—
" Nusquam Tyrio fides."
—(Loud and continued cheering.) From whom could it be
supposed that this severe language proceeded ?—(Hear, hear.)
Why, to be sure most naturally, from the member for Devonshire—the

ex-paymaster of the foices. Who else could employ it ?—No, but most
strange to say, from the right hon. baronet's colleague the present pay-
master of the forces, Sir E. Knatchbull—(Loud cheering for several
minutes.) Yet, after all this, we are told that it is wonderful that

we (the Whigs) have thc support of gentlemen who concur with us,
generally, in opinion, respecting the principles of the Reform Bill, be-
cause we have the support of those who happened to find fault with some

measures of the late Government. I know (he continued) that many men
who now act with us opposed the late government, because they thought
we did not go far enough ; but whether the late government went far
enough, or they were too impatient, is a question which I am not now
called upon to decide.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial side.)
My opinion is, of course, the latter. They thought we were too slow.
However that may be, I see no more reason why we should enter upon
the discussion of that question now, than that the right hon. baronet
(Sir R. Peel) and the Paymaster of the Forces (Sir E. Knatchbull)
should discuss whether the confidence of all public men was likely to be
destroyed, in consequence of the course of conduct pursued by him
(Sir R. Peel) and his colleagues in reference to the question of
Catholic Emancipation.—(Continued cheering from the Opposition.)
Sir, there is another question, the solution of which is some-
what strange, and it is, whether the measures of the
present Administration are the same as those proposed
to be carried by the late government? If they were si-
milar, there was a strange anomaly. It was said now that the
t House of Lords would agree to them. If that was the case, it was
evident that the House of Lords would not tolerate any measures ex-
cept such as were proposed by a House of Commons of their own selec-
tion. But, Sir, if the measures were different, it was equally evident
the measures of reform would be rendered ineffectual.—(Cheers.)
am most ready to yield to the House of Lords that respect to which they
are entitled, and I should regret that there should be any collision be-
tween the two houses of Parliament. But, Sir, I trust that the
House of Lords, when they see the constitutional expression of
ruhl,c opinion, will cordially yield to the sense of the people.
(Cheers.) I am willing to yield a just tribute to the House of Lords
and to afford them a due p!ace in the constitution; at the same time they
are bound not to impede or retard the great principles maintained by the
Reform Bill.—(Cheers.) It is said, Sir, that at this moment we are
ylaced in an extraordinary crisis, and which event took place ill 240.

vember last. I then raw no difficulty in carrying on the affairs of the
empire, and with the creation of the crisis I had nothing to do. But if
such exists, I trust that the peace of . the cluntry will be
preserved, and such means adopted as will carry the spirit of the reform
into the constitution.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) There were some who
thought the Reform Bill had gone too far—(Loud cheers from the
Opposition)—while others thought it had not gone far enough. But the
state of the country most perfectly had shown the efficacy of that measure.
That we may safely steer clear between these two dangers is my earnest
wish : and if we send up the address, as proposed to be amended, stat-
ing what reforms we consider to be necessary, we shall be doing our
duty to our constituents, and we shall not act with pusillanimous weak.
neskon one side, nor with inconsiderate rashness on the other.—(Cheers.)
The Right lion. HENRY GOULBOURN stated, that in making
some observations on what had fallen from the noble Lord who had
jest sat down, he would beg to acquiesce lin much of what had been
stated by the noble Lord. He trusted that every one would endeavour
to allay party differences, and so to conduct Reformation as not
to endanger the great interests of the country--(Cries of" Hear, hear.")
The noble lord had called the attention of the house to the question of
whether they would agree to the address or to the amendment, but he
had stated, and truly stated, that the real difference between him and
the gentlemen on his (Mr. Goulbourn's) side of the house,
was the principle involving the reform of the Irish Church.
He had not forgotten the eloquence of the Noble Lord himself, in which
he described the great advantage.that was derived from keeping the old
lamp instead of burning the new.—(Cheers om the ministerial side.)
He had not forgotten the declarations of the noble lord (Melbourne) at
the head of the late Government, in former Nriods, when he expressed
opinions against the reform of Parliament, declarations which he (Mr.
G.) would venture to say, were never made on that side
of the house during the whole course of the discussions upon the reform
bill. Some had been urged on the conservative side of the house—
more eloquently, more ably, or more forcibly than those which the
noble lord himself then urged. He would say then that the charge which
had been made against them, of having first resisted Reform, and after-
wards been driven into an acquiescence of it, was one which came with
an ill grace from the noble Lord opposite.—(Hear, hear.)
But upon that subject, he would not any loner
They were now called upon to decide the question whether they would
concur in the amendment which had been proposed to the address. The
Noble Lord stated he approved of that amendment, because he wished
to enforce upon the house that they should not have a less measure of re-
form, than that which Lord Melbourne would have given if he had
stood in the same situation. If that were the case, why did the
noble lord content himself with an amendment so vague in
its terms, so lenient in its application of any acknowledged
principle of reform, that he defied any man who concurred in that
amendment to point out any specific plan to which that amendment
related. He had been told by the Noble Lord that he had
stated that he never would contaminate himself by having anything
to do with the Dissenters, he denied it in the strongest terms. Upon
all occasions in the house he had expressed himself according to
those feelings which he entertained of wishing well for the
Dissenters--(Hear,hear)—he had never expressed in the course of the
discussions in the last session, to which the Noble Lord
hail referred, any thing hostile to the enjoyment by them of
any civil privilege which could be conferred upon them, with.
out the destruction of the national establishment of the country.
And when he resisted, as he had felt bound to do, the admission
of the Dissenters to the Universities, the whole of his rt, gu.
meet had been founded upon this, that their civil psi.
vileges could be conferred by other modes, without violating
the principles upon which these Universities were formed, and with.
out inflicting serious injury upon these establishments and the religion
which they diffused.—(Cries of " hear, hear.") The noble lord had
to'd them that Lord Melbourne's administration had had it in con-
templation to introduce extensive reforms in the Irish Church,
He knew not precisely to what reform the noble lord intended to
address himself: he (Mr. G.) was impressed with an opinion that
the question of the Irish Church had already engaged the government of
Lord Grey, and that they had introduced measures for the Re.
form of that Church, which they considered adequate to meet
the existing evil, and that they had made arrangements
for carrying those Reforms into operation. He was not aware
that the noble lord considered that measure so defective in principle as to
make an additional measure one ground of his claim on public favour
and approbation. The noble lord had told them that there was no
mean point of difference between him and those who sat on his (Mr.
G.'s) side of the house. That difference was neither more nor less
than this—Whether it was right to appropriate to other than
cal purposes connected with the Established Church, the funds of
that church. The noble lord had said that he was prepared to
adopt the principle of appropriating the funds now exclusively
beionging to the church to the use of the poor of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) On his (Mr. G's) side they said that those funds
could only be appropriated to purposes connected with the
church. The noble 'old had stated that on this point there existed a
difference of opinion in the Government of Lord Melbourne, and that it
did not confess that there existed that union and concert which should
be the strength of a government. If he (Mr. G.) referred to the declared

opinions of the different members of that Administration, at the time
when that commission was the subject of discussion, he would find
that there were members, and not by any means unimportant
members of that Administration, who endeavoured to guard
themselves from any admission of consenting to appropriate the surplus
Rinds to any other than those connected with church purposes. The noble
lord, Landsdowne, to whom he bad referred, did not indeed go
that length, but reserved his opinion as to what might be his course
on some future occasion.— (Hear, hear, hear.) He had laid down
no principle in respect to appropriation ; but the noble lord
had said there would be a surplus revenue over and above
what was required for the maintenance of the Church of Ire-
land ; but he (Mr. G.) and those who acted with him said that
they would never be a party to the appropriation of that surplus to any
purpose but that to which church property should be appropriated.
There was another authority which stood still higher, he meant that of
the late Lord Chancellor who always professed to have at heart the
interests of the whole body of the community, so far as the extension of

education went to the removal of the evils of poverty. Upon t his subject
the noble lord said, that " he would not expend one farthing of any
surplus upon any except ecclesiastical and protestant purposes."—(Great
cheering.) He spoke of protestant purposes in contradistinction to the
allowing any part, be it ever so little, to the support of the Roman Ca.
tholic hierarchy, at the expense of the Protestant Church; ►.e stated that
most distinctly, whether there should be any surplus, or whether the
Church might not want more additional support. (Tremendous
cheering from the Treasury benches.) He was, however, so far
from agreeing in the principle of the noble Lord (Mel-
bourne) that he scouted the idea of appropriating that which was
allotted to the maintenance of the Church to any other purpose;
he further stated, that if there was any surplus unappropriated, it
should in the first place be applied to ecclesiastical purposes---
that the wants of the Church should be first supplied, after that
the residue, if there should be any, should be appropriated to pur-
poses which, though not strictly ecclesiastical, were connected
with the welfare of the church—namely, the affording education
upon the principles of the English Church.—(Loud cheers.)
He would ask whether the Cabinet of Lord Melbourne
were agreed upon that principle ?—(Loud cheers.) lie would ask
whether the Lord Chancellor and Lord Lansdowne were prepared
to appropriate this surplus to any other than ecclesiastical purposes or
purposes connected with the affording education upon the principles of
the Established Church P Did not those divisions destroy the elements of
strength which the Noble Lord assumed that the late Government had P
There were divisions in that government which it was impossible
to reconcile, without the sacrifice not only of honour, but also of
those conscientious feelings respecting the religion they professed.
—(Hear.) The weakness arising from those divisions was such, that
it was impossible fully to discharge their duties to their country. They
might linger on till the discussions in Parliament, but he was certain
that when those discussions arose, there must be either further differen-
ces, or an abandonment of principle that would totally destroy their
reputation.—(Loud cheers.) He would ask any man whether the Ad.
dress or the Amendment contained the most specific promises of
reform, and whether Ministers, by their first step, had not shown a de.
termination to carry out those principles of reform which they professed P
The third point to which the noble lord addressed himself was, that there
was nothing specific stated in the speech with respect to the principle on
which Corporation Reform was to be carried into effbct ; he thought the
noble Lord in that statement had dealt rather hardly with the pre.
sent Government, for when he was in power he called upon
the present Government to declare the principle which he would
not do when he was in power himself.—(Cheers.) The statements in
the Speech with respect to Corporation Reform, in no degree
pledged the right hon. baronet, or any member of the government,
against the adoption of any measures that might be thought right or
just.—(Cheers.) He had no hostility to the reform of corporations, be-
lieving that it might be attended with effect.—(Cheers.) The noble lord
had told the house, and in that statement he thought he had de.
parted from his usual candour, that the right hon. baronet had quoted
a letter from the hon. member for Dublin as the ground for the re-
moval of the government of lord Melbourne : he could assure the house
that the right ho.t. baronet had no such object as that stated and that
even if he had, that would constitute no ground for the removal of the
late Government. His right hon. friend had a very different object in
view ; his wish was to show that even those who were supposed to
be the advocates of the late ministry, had no confidence in them.
He knew that measures originating in that house, had been un-
successful in the other house ; but was that a ground for saying
that the other house was to have, or wished to have, the
appointtnent of ministers in the House of Commons P That principle
was not put forth—nothing that had fallen from his right hon. friend
(Sir R. Peel) could be construed into calling for such a principle.
He was not aware that there was any other observation of the
noble lord to which he ought, or was called upon to answer.
He had been anxious to put to the House the real facts of the
case, as related to the dismissal of the late government, that they
were dismissed because they were incapable of conducting the bu-
siness of the country,because of the divisions which prevailed within
itself.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY then rose and was received with much cheer-
big. He said he never remembered any occasion when a larger tax was
laid on the credulity of the country or on that house than when they
were requested to suspend their judgments as to the intentions of
the present ministry. It was stated that they, deeply impressed
with a sense of their former misrule and deceptive policy, had at last
determined to abandon the vulgar impression that there was any value in
political consistency, and they were prepared to come before the
house and the public, and like martyrs, bear all the odium thrown
upon them for opening a budget of advantages to the
country, which would exceed anything ever before done, and call for
the raising up to them an imperishable record of their disinte-
restedness. (Cheers and laughter.) Oblivion was very essential
to politics.—(Tremendous cheering from the Tory side of the House.)
Ile was quite sure that the right hon. secretary for the home department
would not have spoken so largely on the Commission spoken of in the
Speech, had he remembered how strongly he had spoken in the
last session against the Commission issued by the late government.
There is this great advantage which presents itself, that every succeed..
ing speech, whether the hon. gentleman forms a part of the present Ad.
n inistration, or was a member of the late, that they were at length
getting at the policy of the present, as they had also learned
the principles which directed the last. He thought that no man could
have heard the singularly Statesman-like speech delivered by the noble
lord the member for Devonshire, but must have deplored that it was not
his lot to form so prominent apart in the late Government as would
have enabled him to have dispelled many of those erroneous impres-
sions which had since lodged in the minds of many members of this
house, as well as of the country at large. He could well understand
the reason why the present Government were anxious to promote the
dissolution of the last Parliament, for he thought that if the country
had had the advantage of the speech of the noble lord—if the country
had been aware of the liberal policy, the enlightened measures
and the enlarged views which the late Government had in store
for it—the house would scarcely have been able at this time
to distinguish any differences between that and the present Govern-
ment, for there was actually little or no diff,rence between them.
Many, lie was convinced, of those on the other side of the house, were
its well wishers, though, from a sense of duty, they were compelled to
oppose it. In returning to the subject of the Speech from the Throne;
lie must say, that whilst it was withont exeception one of the longest,
it Ives at the same time one of the most clear—one of the most decided
expositions of the policy which had ever come from the throne. No-
thing could be more calculated, with the exception of the
speech from the first Lord of the Treasury, to give satis-
faction to the country—nothing could be more fair, clear, or open in its
professions than that speech. And certainly he (Mr. H.) gathered this
from it, that the design of the present government seemed to be, to
declare itself a High Church and Tory government.—(Loud cheers )
The right hon. baronet takes credit to himself for acting upon the prin-
ciples of reform, because he does not introduce a bill for the repeal
of the Reform Act itself I—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He contends,
that though opposed to the principles of that measure, he can, without
lncnnsbitenoy, follow up Itsprinolple. I little doubt, and I am sure, said

the honourable gentleman, the country will agree with me in
pinion, that they will not receive the sanction of Parliament
in their proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) It is, as hes been stated
by the honourable gentleman, a question whether the house will
proceed upon the principles of the act of 1832.—wliether the spirit of
the Reform Bill shall tee forward actively and effectively—or whether
there shall be no chan6 in the Church Temporalities, in ac-
cordance with the spirit and with the just expectations of the
people. The public generally look ten...‘.l thi
s
night's to the result of
night's debate, as a test of the opinions of the second Reform Parliais-
ment. That anxiety is particularly directed to the' Bto''' of e Church
in this country. The explanation of the right hon. L 7" t in t
Ll
course of last night's debate has left no misunderstandingenn that
--
subject in this house, or in the country, as to the intentions of Gose:rn-
ment in dealing with the established church. The hon. gentielean
stated, and when he did he only re-echoed the sentiments
of those around him, that no matter how great th • surper•—no
matter how liberal the provision which might be made for
the Ministers of the Established Church—however great the
amount allocated to the dissemination of its doctrines—yet large
and enormous as the surplus might be, no portion of it could be ap-
plied to other than strictly ecclesiastical purposes. The right hon.
baronet, when he made this avowal, developed the views of his Ma-
jesty's government too clearly to admit of any mistake. The right
hon. gentleman who spoke last took occasion to praise the wisdom of
issuing the new Commission on ecclesiastical affairs, but he must have
known that that which had been issued before had proceeded far in their
enquiries into the nature and extent of ecclesiastical matters, and bad
almost closed their enquiries upon the subject.—(Cries of " hear, hear.")
Are we to understand that the result of their labours is to be withheld,
or to be submitted to the house ?—(hear.) I take it that it is
to be submitted to the house—(hear, hear)—and that in a short
period of time, we may expect to be in pcssession of a great body of
information which cannot fail to set at rest a question which has so
largely occupied the public mind as to the real amount of the eccle-
siastical property.—( Hear, hear.) That it amounts to four
or five millions per annum, I believe to be no exaggeration, but
all speculation on that subject is unnecessary, because the result will
speedily speak for itself. But what I have asserted I have done so from
inquiry ; and lam not disposed to retrat't' until those returns comeel
me to do so. What the present Government propounds is to suffer the
large and very liberal revenues still to accumulate, and still to be dis-
posed of by ecclesiastical authorities. Now the right hon. gentleman
thinks that he has discovered a great variance between the late
Lord Chancellor and the tioble lord, inasmuch as the m;ble lord stated his
sanction of the new plan with which any portion of the surp2,ls of the ec-
eksiasticalrevenue was to be dealt, and which was analoeous to the original
purposes. This is the very principle upon which an redundant surph's
are applied in all our courts. When the funds are applicable to
any particular purpose, and they have largely outgrown the original
design, the surplus is applied to an object consonant in nature, and
think the right hon. gentleman is not prepared to contend that the
education of the people is an object at • variance with the genius and
spirit of Christianity. If, therefore, it is found that this surplus-
will be applied to the education of the peoole, a concession will be
made that will be received with joy any gratitude, but I do not think
the right hon. gentleman prepared to make that concession. But the
right hon, gentleman states that the King's Speece is very explicit upon
tee Corporation Commission. Why, it is very explicit and very
vague too. It merely states the fact we all know, and there it ends.
It speaks of the existence of a commission, and his Majesty doubts not
tha he will be put into possession of the report. What is the cbject of
the Amendment ? To ensure the to country, that whatever that report
may be, it is the determination of the Government, let who will
co.npose ir; to place Municipal Corporations upon a proper footing.
Mr. Harvey proceeded to ask, could there be any difficulty in stating in
the King's speech, what was the intentions of Government respecting
municipal reform, since the inhabitants of towns, having the means of
choosing their representatives to this house, have the same agency
atibrded them in the selection of their municipal officers ? This was an
outrageous—an unwarrantable o.nission in his Majesty's speech, and
when persons who very uncourteously are called Destructives, and see
such language used respecting abuses they are desirous of removing, is
it to be wondered at that suspicions should be raised in their minds P
They were told when they made inquiries respecting the intentions of
Government, when they proposed to remove those abu es, that they
aimed at the destruction of property. No libel could be uttered, more
fa se, more wicked, or more unjust. The people of this country, how-
ever low in rank or humble in condition, have no other interest to con-
sult, but to follow out those schemes of improvement by which industr y
is protected, and the accumulation of that industry is also protected;
for whatever hon. gentlemen may say in the heat of debate, the real de-
fence of a country is placed in the middling and industrious classes. An
hon. gentleman opposite seemed to repel the assertion of the learned
c:vilian (Dr. Lushington), when he stated that the citizens of London
who returned the representatives to this house, were the wealth and in-
telligence of the inhabitants. It is no criterion of wealth to be repre .
screed by exchangeable characters. Wealth consists in the industry of
the people, and is indicated by that quiet and good order which are its
indispensable agents —(Hear.) It is said by some hon. members, who are
the representatives of some small select constituencies, the pride of their
pre•ensions consists in large lumps of unproductive property, which they
deem to be the real representatives of wealth ; but he would cat upon
the gentlemen opposite to look at the mass of mind and wealth which
was within a few miles of the place in which he then addressed them,
and when he reflected upon it, he was not in the least surprised at
t' eir underrating the influence of these men, since they (the Ministers)
were not able, notwithstanding all their exertions to secure a re.pre-
seritative ; showing that half a million at least of the metropolitan
electors have recorded, by their representatives, that they have no con-
fidence in the present Administration. It is strange, continued Mr. H.
after the address has undergone such discussion and criticism with so
much ability, that one topic was not over and over again notice d. Yet
so it is ; and what makes it remarkable is that the interest it refers to
has as enlightened supporters in this house as any other interest—l
mean the agricultural interest. He (Mr. H.) was not connected with
that interest, and he was happy that the county he came from was re-
presented by the President of the Board of Trade, and that the address
was seconded by another member of the same county. As in all other
speeches of recent date, the oppression of the agricultural interest has
been lamented ; but there is no announcement of any encouragement—
no hopes of relief afforded to it. I remember when the right hon. gen-
tleman opposite dealt rather severely with the policy of the late Gos ern_
ment, when they doled out a partial reduction of taxation in taking of
the tax from the howling dog of the shepherd, and other trifling reliefs.
But I think that in making such a trifling reduction, a true account of
the resources of the country ought to to be laid before the house, and
those who were so tenacious of their own rights ought to respect the
rights of others, by making such reductions as the wants of the people
demanded, and guarding their resources. But, Sir, it appears to me
that the house is coerced by the trammels which the interests of the aris-
tocracy eave forced upon them.—(Great ccheering.) And I have
not heard, through the whole course of this debate, one word
in behalf of the sympathies of the people, while the resources
of the country was the subject in which all conceivable topics
might not be introduced, and I am, Sir, too well aware of their impor-
tance to force them on the attention of the House at such an hour as
the present. Ido not entertain that confidence in the present Govern-
ment which its present strenuous supporters claim for it. I have
been accused of comparing the late ministers to a set of riotous tailors ;
whatever may be the expressions I have used, which I now cannot re-
collect, I would not deny that I claim the right of talking of men and
measures in any way which I conceive my duty prompts me to. The
events which accompanied the advent of the present administration cer.
tainly prove that we may do without any government, and they prove
also the peaceful behaviour and disposition of the people ; for we were
three weeks without any government at all. We have been called upon
to suspend our judgments, and not to denounce men whose measures are
not yet known ; but I maintain that their principles end nae3sures have
already been proved, and that they have been developed in the speech
of-the right hon. baronet. And, after all, of what materials is the
present government composed ? We shall also perhaps be told that this
government will consent to inquiry on the Pension List, and that any one
will be removed from it who may be found not to hate a proper claim
to his pension. Then, as to the Church Commission, who will suppose
that all our Right Reverend Fathers, all the army of the faith, wiil sit
and examine with that disinterestedness which has rightly
been interpreted by the term of taking care of themselves—
into the revenues of the Church, with a view to curtail them .? This
would, indeed, be too ludicrous to expect. Well, then, Sir, this is one
of the blessings we are to receive. It is ludicrous to suppose
that their labours will be sincere and efficient, if the result shall
shall be what I believe will be the case when the Report
f r the other Commissions shall be laid on the table of the house—that
the ecclesiastical revenues of the country amount at least to five mil-
lions per annum, as regards England and Wales.—(Hear, hear, and a
laugh.) lam not now speculating on circumstances which must re.
ai a matter of speculation, by affecting details by which the calcu-
lation may be falsified. But lam stating that which I believe if that
report is honest, not only giving you the ecclesiastical revenue, but also
the actual property of the Church ; because it is not enough to show
what the report alone will attempt to show, that the revenue is three
millions, and which three millions will he found the nominal rental of
these large properties which are spread over the country, the real value
of which is to be illustrated in the enormous fines.—(l.mul cries of
" hear, hear.") But, Sir, all those circumstances considered, Ido not
believe the amount will be any thing short of five millions per annum.
Then how is it to be dealt with ? The whole is to be devoted to strictly
ecclesiastical purposes. Why, Sir, I would say at once, from my know-
ledge of the people, and the expectation they form on these matte, s, they
would be pe fectly indifferent as to the distribution of that money, if
a me large portion of the surplus is not made available to
some purposes that may be called analagous—but, at all s vents,
t s some object which shall be universal in its:fitness, and unquestionable
in its utility. As to the Corporations, Sir, I have already torched upon
them. Well then, Sir, as I said before, what advantage does this speech
promise to the people which bears the interpretation and the spirit of
Reform ?—(Hear, hear.) As to the arrangement of the Church, lam
quite satisfied that by this time we are at the same position that we
should have been at, whether we had possessed the Reform Bill or not.
I ant' equally satisfied that any interference with municipal institutions
will partake of the same limited and unsatisfactory character as that
which is applicable to the other. Then we are told, and that is a fact,
which the attention of the house should be drawn to, amid which has
already occupied a large portion of the public mind—it was stated by the
noble Lord, and was dwelt upon by the hon. and learned Doctor (the
member for the Tower Hamlets) that disregard it as you may, I believe
that time present government owes its existence entirely to a successful
intrigue brought about by the means of Reform in the other House of
Parliament—(Cheers.) It has been asked by the noble Lord, are we to
understand that the real interpretation of the Reform Di 1 means that
the constitutional government of this country is exclusively c titerel
in the hereditary Peerage ? (Hear, hear.) It is an experiment to
accomplish by other means that which was accomplished before Schedule
A and B were in existence, and it was often inferred by ingenious con-
trivances, that in point of fact the house of lords governed this country,
and that was effected through the ingen'ous contrivance of el rse bo-
roughs end corporations, and rather than expose themselves to public
censure, the members of the other house returned to this house men of
consummate talents, in order to fight and finish the battle on the floor
of this house—(Hear.) But now the people of England are the authors
and creators of this house, and it is because the other house feels that
the effect of our improvements is to reduce their power to the rational
power of the other elements of the State, they are now pursuing a bold,
daring, and dangerous course, and no one can have listened to the speech
of the noble lord without feeling that the goverment with which he was
connected fell a victim to the basest intriguee—(Hear, hear.) How is it
that the present government now exhibit such a tender solicitude for the
reputation of their predecessors ? Why did they not meet the last
parliament, and give them an opportunity of unfolding the chara.ter of
that policy with which the house and the country was delighted P It
was well known that if the country was imbued with the conviction that
Lord Melbourne having gut rid of the incumbranc s which impeded hi,
efforts—(hear, hear, from the Opposition, followed by cheers from the
Ministerial benches)—they were prepared to act up to the spirit end ge-
nius of that great measure of which they were the authors.—(Loud
sneers). However much the overthrow of that government may be
deplored, I for one do not participate in any such feel rig, aed I think
that the extinction of the lategovernment will be attended with very
great advantage to the country, because I am convinced that whatever
name the government may assume—whether they pride themselves in
enlisting under' the approbation of Whigs or of Tories—or iv:meth, r
they assume the less objectionable name of Conservatives or Lib.rals—
I am quite satisfied that they can never free themselves from the in flu_
once of Court favour, or of those Janissaries who surround it, unless
their anchorage is cast in the soul and soil of public favour.—(Cheers.)
When this has been accomplished, it will be found that the na'ion will
receive protection against all the machinations and intrigues, both foe
reign and domestic, that may be set on foot against it.
Mr. A. BARING rose amid loud cries of " Adjourn " Ile said he
would not detain the house, if they would but hear him. He would not
trouble them, but for the observations whica fell from the hon. member
who last addressed the house. He would Just refer to an observation
that was made by the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets. That
honourable gentleman said that the representatives of the city were