The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-29 00:00:00

members should not, he thought, be so exceedingly anxious
to find out little faults in the conduct of statesmen unused
to the difficult position they held. It was essential to the
establishment of freedom that the ecclesiastical power
should be subject to the civil. (Cheers.) Without that it
was a delusion to talk of their liberty. Their liberty was a
sham. They had no liberty while they were slaves of the
priests. There were those in that house who could re-
member, as he could, the return of Louis XVIII. to
France, where he found a priest who had been convicted
of cutting his mistress into twenty pieces. (A laugh.)
An hon. member laughed ; he appeared to think
that a good joke, and that was the way some persons treated
ecclesiastical delinquencies. (Hear, hear.) It was seven or
eight years before the French Monarch, with all his power,
dared to execute a righteous judgment on that priest.
(Hear, hear.) No sooner had Sardinia subjected the
priesthood to the'civil power, by making them amenable to
the same laws as civilians, than every member of the As-
sembly who sanctioned that change was excommunicated,
and remained excommunicated to this day, and the author
of it died without receiving the sacraments of the church.
Tear') To Protestants those things might appear very
#rhaps ridiculous ; but Roman Catholics were
aware of the dread with which their oe-religionists in that
country regarded exclusion from the privileges of the
Church. About that time a Jesuit Confessor of the mother
of the present Thzaperor• of Austria got about him and made
him vow the% if he lived to gown he would restore the,
rights of the Church in Austria by a Concordat. The
words embodying that vow conveyed a lie. That Conan.,
dat gave to Austria a position which no part of Germany
ever had before—complete subjection to. the Ooincil of
Trent. By it the whole of the Tenth, ha that country were
placed exclusively in Jeanit schools. Not a single Protes,
tant in Bohemia, or imiarry of the Danubian provinces could
be received into the civil service oX the country without a
certificate that he had been educated in some One of those
Jesuit schools i and as Protestants refused to send their
sons to be taught there they were practically excluded fromthe civil service. Those Jesuit priests fomented the re-
bellion in Lombardy, and the POl3O backed them.
(Mr. Drummond) contended that it was impossible to 'keep
that country free unless some decieive steps were taken to
control the power of the church, (Hear ) It waa not a
mere question of territorial aggrardisement, 'Prom the
year 1848 the ecclesiastical Rawer had loAt forth an in,
thienee throughout Europe which it had not before dared
to do since the French Revolution. There was not a single
State in which they had not done it. He was net finding
fault with the Pope for that. His (the Pope's) declaration
the other day was' manly and houourable—namely, that it
was his duty rather to, deny than forego his principles ; but
he (Mr. Drummond) said those principles were incom-
patible with the freedom of that country. (Cheers.)
About that time the Bishop of Mayence excited the whole
of the priests of Baden to rebel against the Grand Duke.
He imprisoned many of them, but to little purre.ose ;
and at last things came to such a pass that 'he was
obliged to appeal to the Pope. Agsf,a in tießhenish provinces the priests claimed`the fa;stat of
searching every house and seizing .00ks obnoxious to their
creed, as well as iaewsnapers of every kind. Look also at
France. When the Ana*eror prosecuted M. Montalembert
for writing and Puballsbing a partegyrio on England he let
all the Lest :rue were in the habit of abusing England go
free. helix.) He encouraged the one, and depressed
the ";;Cner ; and the Univers had declared over and over again
that the existence of Protestant England was incompatible
with the improvement of the human race, Again, M. Co-
querelle, awe known Protestant clergyman in Paris, had
been silenced--aor at least ordered to take care that in his
sermons he said nothing offensive to Popery. At various
other places the use of the Holy Scriptures had been entirely
forbidden, on the ground, as was alleged, that they were
opposed to the religion of the majority. [No, no, from
Mr. Bowyer.] The hon. member had better be cautious.
(A laugh.) He had better read the last Pope's Encyclical
letter to Poland, in which Roman Catholics were expressly
forbidden to read the sacred Scriptures. (Hear.) Either
he (Mr. Drummond) had told a falsehood on that subject,
or somebody else had. He held in his hand the Pepe's
letter, which said, "It is unnecessary-to remind you how
repeatedly the Church,' by the mouth of the Roman Pontiff,
has forbidden her children to read the Bible in any v-ulga;r
tongue whatever. [Mr. Bowyer—Nhexe is someth.m else
besides that.] "His Holiness Pope Clement Yhi. has,
moreover, declared that no bishop whatever it; at liberty to
permit Bibles of the above description to be kept or read."
It was notorious that, out of that house, there was scarcely
a man to be fOund to deny that that was the teaching of the
Roman Catholic Church. (Hear.) Again, there was the
childstealing—which they had all heard was going on
almost everywhere. (A laugh.) It was practised in Ireland
the other day. The truth waathat the power of the Papacy,
which was now growing at a greater rate than it had done
for many years past, was incompatible with freedom.
(Hear.) If the Roman Catholic laity were to be emanci-
pated from that ecclesiastical slavery they must do it for
themselves. This he knew, that England, as a Protestant
country, could not meddle with any goad effect. Now,
as this must be the main business; of the congress, Eng-
land, as a Protestant country, ought to keep out of it, be-
cause she could do no good, There were fidgets on all sub-
jects. There were private fidgets, county fidgets, and poli-
tical fidgets, and there was on, the part of many people to
do what sailors "shove in their oar where there was
no water," (A laugh.) It was a very dangerous thing for us '
to meddle in the settlement of a. question which was essea_,_
tially religious, with whict we could have no legitmate
concern, which must produce irritation, and in w Aida our
views could never 'oe fairly listened to, and thin , he thought
was an additibnal reason why, he did not maan that the Go-
vernment should have its hands tied lsy any resolution in
that house, but why it was not good policy for us to inter-
fere in thia congress. (Hear, hear,)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed
with the hon. gentleman who last addressed the house, that
the debate had not exhausted all the subjects of varied inte-
rest which it suggested. He was glad that the case of Sar-
dinia had been so fully considered and gone into. He was
,not speaking of the foreign policy of Sardinia, but with re-
spect to the internal government, of that country there had
not been one word too much said, The difficulties with
which Sardiniawas surrounded were enormous. Onthe one
side there was the principle of absolutism, and on the other
side there was the principle of revelation. In matters eccle-
siastical there was the absolute dominion of the Pope on
the one side, and the principle of religion on the other side.
Still Sardinia steered her course with sagacity and success,
and her conduct claimed the gratitude of every lover of
order and liberty. (Hear, hear.) Having said so much with
regard to, Sardinia, he desired to follow the speech of the
right lion, gentleman the member for the Universay of
Dublin (Mr. Whiteside). It wasnot, for the first time,
that
the right hrra. gentleman went into the history of 184 S.
He referred to docunteuts, he made ample quotations, he
dwelt emphatically upon, and judging by the cheers which
proceeded from the gentlemen behind him, there was ample
demonstration of the fact, that his statement had been re-
ceived with gratification. (Hear.) Now he (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) did not in the slightest degree intend to
question anything but the accuracy of the right hon. gentle-
man, and he hoped that the valuable timd,of the house which
had already been so largely occupied with this subject, would
not be again taken up with its consideration. The right hen.
gentleman, among other accusations which he brought
against the noble viscount at the head of the Govern-
ment, made rather a good humoured accusation. He
stated that his noble friend had made game of the
Pope. (Hew\ hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer), when he heard that statement, could not help
remembering a memorable sentence uttered by jthe right
hon. gentleman in a speech which he delivered on the sub-
ject of the College of Maynooth, a sentence redolent of the
humour of the right hon. gentleman's nation and of his own
good hunieur. (Laughter.) Addressinghis Roman Catholic
fellow-subjects he said, " I assure my Roman Catholic fel-
low-subjects, that with respect even to the Pope I wish him
nothing worse than a Parliament like the Parliament of
Piedmont to keep the infallible man from going wrong every
day of his life,' (Laughter.) When the right hon.gentle-
man made such statements, he ought to administer, with
commendable mercy, his punishment on those who happen
to disapprove of the Government of the Pope. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman had, unintentionally no doubt,
but most entirely and completely misrepresented the case
of 1848, on which be so liked to dwell. The right hon.
gentleman said that in the month of May, 1848, Austria
offered to the British Government, that if the British Go-
vernment interfered to restore peace, Lombardy should be
rendered independent, and Venice should have a free con-
stitution ; and the right hon, gentleman added, that at that
period his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) right hon.
friend the Secretary of State, had received a letter, or had
theomeana of knowing, that Sardinia would be satisfied with
that armagement. The right hon. gentleman's accusation
against the noble lords (Palmerston and Lord J. Russdll)
was that in 1848 they had neglected the golden opportunity,
and postponed the settlement of the Italian question, and
that having done so once one year they would do the like
again, Now, did the noble lords act as had been suggested ?
Was it the fact thin they so acted ? The right hon. gentle-
man's statement was grossly and entirely untrue. There
was no such offer ham Austria, but a document was received
from Baron liummelauer expressing his own individual
opinion with reference to Lombardy and Venice. On the
234 May, 1848, Baron Hummelaur sent to the Foreign Sea:,-
rotary a document stating,that while the Lombardo-Vene-
tian kingdom was to continue under the sovereignty nf Aus-
tria it should have what might be called a free constitution.
That was the proposition of the Austrian Goveamment. It
made no distinction between Lombardy and 'Venice. It did
not separate Austria from anything at an. But said the
hon. gentleman, " I did not quote the letter of May 23—1
quoted the letter of May 24." But was, it likely that Baron
Hummelauer having made a propositlon on• the 23d, would
on the 24th make a proposition, diametrically opposite ?
There was unfbrtunately no written answer to that paper of
the 23d of May ; but there was an answer written on the
24th of May which showed truthfully what occurred, and
it appeared from that that the noble lord, the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, had represented to Baron Hum-
melauer that the terms submitted in that paper were not
satisfactory, and it further appeared that Baron Humme_
lauer drew up a fresh paper, in which his noble friend and
that distinguished diplomatist agreed. (Hear.) That do-
cument was dated the 24th of May,'and by its terms it was
arranged that Lombardy should be freed altogether from
Austria—(hear, hear, and cheers)—and that the Venetian
State was to be a free State under a new constitution.
(Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman opposite, then, was
not correct in his representation.
Mr. WHITESIDE explained.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
right hen, gentleman said there must have been an official
eemmunication from Austria. Then the right hon. gentle-
man must have read the covering letter. Now he would
read, if not the whale, at least an abstract of the covering
letter— a Your lordships may rest assured that the Impe-
rial Government (meaning France) entertains precisely as
the Government of the Queen, and as those of the Council
(meaning the Cabinet Council.) I shall returnimmediately
to Vienna, and urge the expediency of those terms being
accepted." (Hear, hear, and cheers.) So, then, it is evi-
dent that the right hon. gentleman had fallen into a great
error in believing that that was a proposal from Austria
which was no proposal at all. (Hear, hear.) The right
bon. gentleman said it was an Austrian proposal:
Mr. WHITESIDE—I said if- was submitte ' by the
noble viscount as the proposal of the Austrian Government
to Sardinia.

The CHANCELLOR of the :EXCHEQUER—If that
be so, it was a gross error to send it at all. The right
lon. gentleman was entirely mistaken., the right hon.
gentleman said that that proposal was acceptable to Sar-
d!n!.a.~jowsWhat were the opinions and declarations of Sar-
(IVA%Pu the 24th of May ? Why, he had here two letters on
Attie subject, both of them receivccli on the 24th of May. The
first letter declared that Austria must evacuate Italy
(hear, hear and cheeTr..),--and the second said'that no nego-
tiations could ha entered into except on the complete eva-
cuation cfLombUrdy by Austria. (Hear, hear.) His hon..
f.;end, the Member for Dundallc also objected to the British
Geverninent going into, a Pokgress. Now, with respect to
the hon. Member. foN Dinadalk, he confessed he did not share
kik fdax4; bAt hp, thought his hon. friend's fears really
1,1'4% 044 lily sem possibility the British Government, if
1,44- wit in to the congress, might be able to do some gocd
there. (Laughter.) He hoped that neither the Quernment

nor the House of Commons would be bound by any terms
that they did not approve of in the congress. Who knew—
at least he did not know—that Austria was a finally consent-
ing or dissenting party to a congress ? Who could even say
that Austria had asned for a congress? He did not dispute
the temporal power of the Pope ; but he protested against
the doctrine that this was a religious question. (Hear, hear.)
It was not a religious question, but it was a great social ques-
tion. And was it to be said that England, who assisted in
reinstating the Pope in his dominions in former years, was
not now to interfere in this question. (Hear, hear.) His
right hon. friend (Mr. Disraeli) said there were but two
parties in Italy, and he had twitted her Majesty's Govern-
ment with introducing their " Whig" notions into the af-
fairs of Italy—(laughter)—but he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) supposed that his righthon. friend apprehended
that the Whigs were disposed to give them some share of
constitutional freedom, (Laughter.) It was not true that
there were but two parties in Italy. There were other par-
ties there, He would not cast ridicule and scorn upon any
party who were prepared to rally for the freeclani of Italy.
It was not right to indicate to the friends, of moderate opi-
nions in Italy that they were to be abandoned by the
Powers of Europe, and that the, Italians were to be crushed
between the Powers of absolutism on the one hand and the
revolutiona.ry party on the other. (Cheers.) The member
for the University ef'Dnblin and the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Disraeli); had differed as to the manner in which
the provisionS of the treaties were to be curried out.
The fefiner said "Do not touch, the treaties,!' The latter,
while.ctenonnoirtg the congress in terms equally strong,
took a differ2nt view of the treaties, observed that it
was by gross misraanagerrient on tte
nier..4., that they had missed and f,ailed. part he
He said, " If you
of t Govern-
lied been °lever enough, or if we had been in your place, we
would have settled every4:fling,
The right hon. genfieinor, satisfactorily.' (Laughter.)
(Mr. Disraeli) said, " Why did
you not endeavour to . get credit for obtaining large and
liberal termer for It ay p,, On that point he (the Chancellor
of the Tuxcheql.3o) was bound to say that the Government
Wt.-co not anxious to compete with the right hon, gentle-
man. If be wished to obtain that credit, it would be It dip-
lou atic. mission on which they would have no rease'n what-
soever to congratulate themselves. (Laughter.) He (Mr.
Gladstone) entertained the strongest conviction that the
House of Commons would not interpose between the execu-
tive Government—(cheers)—by calling on them to accept
any declaration whatever which should preclude the exer-
cise of its discretion in regard to the measures that might
be most prudent for them to adopt in giving to the peace
that form which should be ny:ist favourable and less dan-
gerous to the future fortuwes and permanent tranquillity ef,
Italy. (Cheers.)
Mr. MAGUIRE
1847 would ha ',Aid the Government of the Pope in
v'd worked well had it not been fo' Mazzini
and the relty
the (fiutionary party. During the IPat few years
Pope, had been fully occupied in making material re-
ferr-s, and he made that assertion watt all the responsi-
oility of a member of Parliament. ";:he Pope had taken
up £7,000,000 of bad money whi,fn had been bequeathed
him by the revolutionary party, and had now established
in his States one of the hest currencies to be found -in
Europe. The revolutionary party had been convicted of
the grossest atrocities on the evidence of Englishmen, and
that was the party which the noble lords opposite were
too ready to support on all occasions. It had been said
that the prisons of the Papal States were filled with poli-
tical prisoners ; but that he quite denied, for in October
last there were only seventy-two such prisoners. But be-
sides all this, the manufacturei of the States were improv-
ing, and recently—and he heartily wished the right hon.
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer could say the
same—after paying off all debts, there was a balance in
the exchequer. It was a small one, and the first there had
been for a period of a) years, for the heads of the Whig
party were always too ready to lend assistance to the revo-
lutionary party, and then everything retrograded. As re-
garded education, he could assert that there were now in
Rome 23,000 pupils receiving a free education, and that
,000 other mpils were taught at night schools. Nothing,
, in fact, coifed exceed the zeal of the Holy Father in effect-
: ing soPlal reforms. But let the Government guard against
fartler meddling in these affairs, which only made matters
'worse abroad, and had already damaged, irretrievably,their
own reputation as statesmen; for, throughout Italy, the
name of the noble lord the member for London was detested,
and that of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, ab-
horred.

After a few words from Mr. P. URQIIIIART,
Lord C. HAMILTON contended that the chary, made
against the noble lord the member for Tiverton ,:gas, that
he did not in May, 1848, accept the terms from Austria in
f tvour of Lombardy,. which were far better Pam those now
granted by Austria in respect to that corltry. That wasthe charge made by his right hon. and learned friend (Mr.
Whiteside) against the noble lord tte member for Tiverton,
and it had not been answered by his Gladstone.) , Now, what were right hon. friend (Mr.
'the facts ? Why, that on the
23d May, 1848, Austria
Prr,posed that Lombardy should be
separated from Austria
either be an indeper . with a condition that she should
tient kingdom, or joined to Sardinia
upon her paying
was liable to P., fair proportion of the debt for which she
i.ustria. The noble lord, the member for
Tiverton, Pr, the 12th June, 1848, and on the 17th of June,
and ever down to July. refused to accede to the terms, and
would_ hear of nothing, unless Venetia was also made a
!er.arat e kingdom. But, when Marshal Radetzky menaced
Sardinia, and sustained the power of Austria against that
country, the noble lord , on the 7th of August, 1848, wrote
to Lord Normanby, and said that her Majesty's Govern-
ment, wishing to put an end to the state of things which
existed in the North of Italy, would accede to the terms
proposed by Baron Hummelauer, in May, in reference to
Lombardy. But, Austria being successful, paid no atten- 1
tion to the despatch of the noble lord. These facts ap-
peared in the blue books which treated upon the question.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the noble lord who had just ad-
dressed the house seemed to think that what he had just
read diminished the force of the statement made by his right
hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone), in reference to the question -
under consideration. But tho fact was, that what his right
hon. friend stated remained just in the same position ir_
which it was. (Hear; and a laugh.) The proposition. of
the Austrian Government was stated on the 23d of May in
the moposition. of Baron Hummelauer, and at a sv!osequent
date, accordir_g to the documents to which the noble lord
had referred, his (Lord J. Russell's) noble friend (Lord
Palmerston) referred to the memorandum of the 23d of May.
That was in perfect consistency with what had been stated
by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The noble lord seems to have forgotten that the first ques-
tion is, whether the proposition is that of the Austrian Go-
vernment, or one which.Barou Hummelauer had taken upon
himself to propose. In reply to the hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Dundalk, his lordship stated that, so far from Lord
Minto having endeavoured to inflame the passions of the ex-
treme revolutionary party in Italy, with the view of over-
coming the constitutional party, his efforts were directed to
exactly the opposite object, and the effect of his endeavours
was precisely the reverse of that which the hon. gentleman
had stated. Lord Minto's mission was to prevent revolu-
tion—to induce the Government to make wholesome re-
forms—to induce the leaders of the Liberal party to be
satisfied with such reforms as could be made, and to re-
strain those parties who were bearing on to revolution. In
that mission Lord Minto would have succeeded but for the
Revolution of February, 1848, which broke out in France,
and gave the republicans throughout Europe an impulse
and a strength of which it was impossible for Italy to
escape the influence. Lord Minto did not even counsel the
establishment of a representative assembly in Rome, as he
thought it might not be conducted with moderation. The
person who introduced representative assemblies, and
granted a constitution, was the King of Naples. (Hear.)
He did not know how it happened that the hon. gentleman
had two political creeds. Yet he set down the proposer
of any reform in Italy as a friend of anarchy, as if no
reform was consistent with moderation. If the Italian Go-
verrutents were so excellent, why was it necessary that
there should always be a French garrison at Rome and an
Austrian force at Bologna? (Hear.) It certainly seemed
strange that so good a Government could not carry out its
. paternal designs for the benefit of its subjects without hav-
ing foreign troops to force it down the throats of the people.
(Hear.) If the hon. gentleman were a Tory-he could un-
derstand his taking such a position, but when the hon. gen-
tleman spoke on domestic affairs he said nothing about re-
presentative assemblies producing revolution. (Hear.)
Mr. MAGUIRE—I never 'said anything o the kind,
neither do I believe it. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the hon. gentleman must be
aware that these foreign troops in Italy had been used for
the purpose, not of supporting, but of preventing represen-
tative institutions, which the people desired. (Hear.) Now
the people were forming governments themselves, and mak-
ing elections Cy themselves, as they would have done ten
years ago had they not been prevented by French and Aus-
trian troops. (Hear.) The hon, and learned gentlemen
the late Attorne3r, General said ths.t if his (Lord J. Russell's)
advice should be taken it would renew the war. But he
(Lord J. Russell) thought the people of Italy ought to be
allowed to form governments for themselves. Hewes quite
willing to let them do so without giving them any advice.
(Hear.) They
and mbably would be, popular outbreaks, but if the people
of Italy were left to themselves, in no very long time they
v7ould form sound popular institutions, and order would be
as well kept 'as in any other country in Europe. That
was his (Lora J. Russell's) opinion. He did not want to
advise those Governments, but when other foreign Govern-
ments did interfere--when they told them that the removal
of the foreign troops would be the signal for a massacre—
he said that when such advice was given them on the one
hand, then he was prepared to advise them on the other.
(Cheers.) He thought that a renewal of the war would be
much more likely to result from the return than from the
withdrawal of the foreign troops. (Hear.) The Italians
were better able to form their own governments than
England, France, or Austria were able to form them for
them. At Bologna there had been a revolution, the foreign
troops had been withdrawn, the Papal Government had
been overthrown, and yet he had not heard of any attack
upon either life or property. (Cheers.) At Florence, the
Grand Duke went away, abdicating his functions, but
what disorder, or pillage, or massacre had taken place ?
(Hear, hear.) In Sardinia the King had fostered free in-
stitutions, liberty of worship, and liberty of the Press, and
he believed that the other countries of Italy, if left to
themselves, would establish similar institutions, and then
there would be an end. of these wars on their behalf
(Cheers.)
After a few words from Lord LOVAINE,
Mr. A. KINNAIRD, in reply to the member for Dun-
dalk, who had accused him of being the representative of
&Ater Hall principles, said that he was not afraid to ad-
vocate in that house the principles which he adve,cated
elsewhere, and the hon. gentleman, instead of finding
fault with him for it, ought to respect him all the more for
his openness. (Cheers.) He always advocated his opinions
openly and honestly, and he hoped in a friendly spirit.
(Cheers.)
The subject then dropped.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Mr. DISRAELI said it would be for the convenience of
the house if the Government would state the probable
course of public business. It was understood that on.
Monday the subject referred to. in the course of the unex-
pected debate to-night would again be brought forward,
while the Indian budget was fixed for the same evening.
Now, the house would like to know what business would
really be proceeded with. He did not think the subject of
this evening had been sufficiently discussed (hear) • and it
would be well if the opinion of the house could 'be pro-
nounced upon it ; in which case delay was very much to be
deprecated. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON could not, of course, answer for
his noble friend (Lord Eleho), who was not now in his
place, but the Government proposed to take the Income-
tax
Bill in committee to-morrow (this day), and the Secre-
tary of State for India hoped that the noble lord would not
stand in his way on Monday. (" Ohl") It was very im-
portant that the Indian financial statement should he made
at once. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI was afraid that he had not made his
meaning sufficiently clear. He thought he did not misin-
terpret the opinion, of the house when he said that a dis-
cussion ought to take place on the motion of the noble lord
(Elcho). Now, if there was to be a discussion on that
question, it would be convenient that it should take place
on Monday ; but then there ought to be a distinct under-
standing, The house ought not to be left in doubt whe-