The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-14 00:00:00

Dens's Theology--( Hear, and a laugh.) He really wondered
how'the Hon. Gentleman could be so imposed upon. He had
read a paper which was ill question and answer. Who were
the questioners, and who the answerers? If this were an in-
vestigation which had Leen directed by the Board, the Hon.
Gentleman's statement would be a direct accusation against
them. If se, let him bring the accusation forward, instead of
leaking these vague and unfounded charges against a system
which had been predeetise of the greatest good in Ireland.
Mr. PLUNK Err deprecated the Government plan of
education in Irelaad. The school at Drogheda was placed
entirely iu the hands of two Franciscan Friars, who had made
provisions for the- establishment of a Franciscan Monastery in
that town, and for the diffusion of Popery. If his Majesty's
Government were as sincere on this point as they professed
to be, they would feel that it was at least desirable that. Pro-
testant chihlren shouid not be compelled to receive the edu.
cation likely to be afihrded them by Franciscan Friars. They
would feel in common with himself, and he hoped he might
add a large portion of that House, that it was a matter lit
considerable importance that their grandchildren—even
they were so fortunate as to have as numerous a progeny as
the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin—should be brought
up in the christian education of their forefathers. The school
at Ennis was also in the possession of two monks. He stated
the fact on the authority of the • Deputy-Lieutenant of the
county, who was himself a Magistrate. The opinion of the
great majority of the magistracy and gentry of the country
we? decidedly opposed to the Government plan of education ;
and he never was more convinced of anything in his life than
he was of the fact, that it would not be for a much longer
period endured•in Ireland.—( Partial cheering.)
Mr. O'CONNELL rose immediately amidst much cheer-
ing, and said, I beg to repudiate, as strongly as anybody can
with courtesy, the attack made by the Hon.• Gentleman on
those whom he is pleased to designate Franciscan Friars. I
want to know whether a man has not as good a right to be a
Franciscan Friar in Ireland, as the Hon. Gentleman has to
belong to an Orange lodge ?—( Loud cheers.) I think he has
a great more, and I will tell the Hon. Geutleman why—bee
cause the one is an illegal society, while the other is a portion
of the Church, which, although the Hon. Gentleman himself
may not belong to it, has its regularly-ordain6d Ministers, and
is tolerated by law. —( Renewed cheering.) Why, Sir, I
knew even a Franciscan friar to whom it would be difficult for
the Hon. Gentleman to compare himself. The late Father
O'Leary was a Franciscan friar. It would be difficult for any
man to say, I think, that the Hon. Gentleman is as well edu-
cated as Father O'Leary was. Ie my humble opinion, he cer-
tainly is not ; he seems to be marvellously defective In one
branch of his education at least--Christian liberality:—(Tre-
mendons cheering, and a cry of "Oh !") Sir, it does not be-
come the lion. Gentleman to talk in that way. The Franciscan
friars (as he is pleased to call them) have as good a right to
be in the town of Drogheda as himself and are perhaps as well
received there even as he would be if lie thought proper to en-
ter that town.—(Cheers and laughter.) Under the regula-
tions of the Board of Education, printed and widely circulated,
they have a perfect right to keep that school • if the Hon.
Gentleman can show that they violate the regulations of that
Board—then indeed he makes out a case either against the
friars or against the Board, or against both ; but until he does
that, I tell him they acknowledge not the least superiority in
him ; on the contrary, I think they would assert something
like superiority over him in any literary contest in which he
might embark with them.—( Loud cheers.) He talks of the
monks of Ennis, too, somewhat tauntingly; it becomes him,
to be sure : he is entitled to talk in that kind of way
Really, he would recommend the Hon. Gentleman to take
such trash to Exeter Hall : it would do admirably there—
particulerly, if he had the police at his back.—(Loud
cheers.) But he talks of the monks at Ennis. Now, they
are not monks • they are persons who give themselves up at
an early period of life to,be taught themselves, until they ac-
quire sufficient knowledge to educate the children of the poor ;
they educate them gratuitously : they receive no salary or pe-
cuniary reward ; their lives are devoted to this benevolent
purpose, and to this purpose alone. They exist in Ireland at
present, I believe, to the number of three or four hundred,
doing an extreme deal of good throughout the country by pro-
moting education. Many of them are within the rules of the
Regulation Board, and receive assistance ; others refuse it,
and have no assistance whatever. With the class that receive
no assistance the House has not to do ; with those who do re-
ceive assistance it has to do ; and they would not fail to cen-
sure the Board if it gave money to a class of persons who did
not comply with its regulations.—( Hear.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman's assault has originated in that silly and foolish affecta-
tion of superiority Which is to be found among one party in
Ireland, which bewilders the imagination of those individuals,
and leads them to believe that they are higher in station or
moral character, and in the rank of human beings, that those
whom they taunt as monks. I tell the Hon. Gentleman there
never was a greater mistake committed by man—and I hope
the lesson he has received this evening will teach him when
he addresses the House again on a delieate subject of this de-
scription, to keep the violence of his sectarian prejudices to
himself, and not to obtrude them on the British House of
Commons.
After a few words from Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN,
Mr. BELLEW defended the grant, and contended that the
se'esiol at Drogheda had given the utmost satisfaction. In the
county ire bad the honour to represent, in which the town of
Drogheda was situated, the Education Board had done the
greatest good. There were fourteen or fifteen of these schools
in his own county, mid so far from the general opinion being
adverse to them, the names of four or five Protestant magis-
trates and High Tory gentlemen were appended to the requi-
sitions, praying for their establishment. In the province of
Ulster alone there were no fewer than nine hundred such
schools.—( Cheers. )
Sir ROBERT INGLIS, who was very indistinctly heard,
was understood to deprecate the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin accusing the Hon. Gentleman behind him (Mr.
Plunkett) of sectarianism, because he had defended his religion.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Hon. Baronet had charged him
with accusing the Hon. Gentleman of sectarian principles,
because he had defended his religion. He had done no such
thing ; but he accused both the lion. Gentleman and the Hon.
Baronet of sectarian feelings when they assailed his religion.
The Hon. Gentleman, if he mistook not, had used the word
" Popery." Why, if there were a nick-name, as indeed there
was, would he use it in that House ? If he used the word
" heretic" in the House, be would deserve to be put out of it.
He never had used, and he never would use, any word deroga-
tory of the Protestant religion. With respect to the monks at
Ennis, they were called monks, and he had said so. They were
called educational monks, but in the definition of the laws they
were not monks, because they bad taken no oaths which would
bring them within the statute prohibiting the increase of monks
hi Ireland. They had allowed themselves to be registered, but
had done so under protest.
Lord MOR PETH said, with reference to the observation
that the vote had been brought on unexpectedly, that it had
stood in the votes in its place since the middle of March.—
( Hear, hear.) If any Protestant parent sending a Protestant
child to these schools met with any practice which could give
him conscientious offence, it would be contrary to the grounds
on which they were founded, and he had no doubt that any
such complaint would receive from the Board effectual re-
dress. With reference to the charge of their being uniformly
favourable to the Catholic religion, and only having been
taken up by the Cetholic population, he had the satisfaction
of finding, on looking to the Return which formed part of the
Report on the table, that of the applications from laymen'in
the province of Protestant Ulster the great majority were from
Protestants.—( Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. YOUNG,
Mr. HARDY said he was not surprised to hear that Pro-
testants objected to a course of education founded on a system
of compromise, and keeping back the whole of the Bible. It
became the duty of the Protestants, and more especially of
the Dissenters of this country, to take• care that, in giving a
prafessedly moral and religious education, they were not giving
a really sectarian one. There was one practice against which
it was most desirable to proceed—it was the holding schools
in chapels, for when they were held in chapels the priest had
frequent opportunities of getting the Frotestant among the
Roman Catholic children, and inculcating his doctrines into
the minds of bath.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. GRATTAN was astonished at the sublime ignorance
of the Hon. Gentleman.—(A laugh.) Had the lion. Gen-
tleman read the • series of questions published by the Educa-
tion Board, on the very subject to which he had just adverted ?
Had he read them ? When he answered the question he
would get up again.—( A laugh.)
Mr. HA RD Y—l have seen the book.-
Mr. G R ATTAN—Have you read it?—(Renewed laugh-
ter, and cries of " Order !")
Mr. HARDY—Yes, I have read it—(Cheers)—and I can
tell the Hon. Gentleman more than that—l can hunt out in
that book doctrines that are inconsistent with any doctrines
professed by any Protestant.-4 Cheers.)
Mr. GRATTAN—It was quite clear the Hon. Gentlemen
was a bad lawyer, because he had made two replies to one
question.—( A laugh ) The very first question put and signed
by Mr. Terry was, " L any ground on which you propose to
build a school situated contiguous to a chapel-yard ?" What
was the fact? Why that the building a school in such a si-
tuation was in direct opposition to the regulations of' the
Board. Such a charge was only what he had to expect from
persons who attended mountebank societies—( Hear, hear)—
societies in which charges were brought against the Catholic
Church as false as heii—( Hear, and laughter)—and after-
wards they talk of being the supporters of education. He re-
jected the support of the people upon that-side of the House;
they had set up Catholics in Ireland against Protestants, till
they had made-that island a demoniac assembly.—( A laugh.)
Lord SANDON begged to observe that the evidence from
all sides tended to show that the schools were built near the
chapels.
Sir J. HOBIIPUSE then said it had been stated, and he
was afraid with truth, that there were many points of difference
between Protestants and Catholics on which they could never
be got to agree ; but surely if there were points upon which
they did not differ, it became the duty of all parties not to dis-
turb those points.—( Hear, hear.) He would also remark,
that if any attempts were made to do away with those differ-
ences it ought to bo at an early period of life, before the mind
became prejudiced in those opinions. As to the grant, it
would be the duty of Government to see' that it was not mis-
ennlied, and if the Noble La d could prove a single case in
which ie ener care was not ta' en, Government would unhesitat-
ingly remedy the evil• lie 1 o,led, however, that all parties
would join in promoting K elsotion which was for the peace and
prosperity of the whole country.
Mr. FINCH said that the-effect of the efeeseepment system
of education in Ireland hitherto had been, that the Prcie-:::'.Pt
children had not been able to avail themselves of it. He had
received a statement from a gentleman lately come from Ire-
land in regard to this subject, which he would read.—( Loud
cries of " Name, name.") He had no hesitation in naming
the gentleman. It was the Rev. Robert Daly.—( Cheers and
laughter.) The Hon. Mem' er t ien read a paper, which stated
that the writer had visited se-, era schools, which were held is