The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-29 00:00:00

ITIE SUN', _LONDON, SATURDAY, AITGUST 29, ISM

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

appointed by the Crown to inquire into the means of divine
worship afforded by the Church of Scotland, and other mat-
ters connected with it; and they proceeded to state that they
thought it to be their duty respectfully, but firmly to state
to his Majesty's Government, that the Commission was not
such as to entitle it to the attention and respect of the Church
of Scotland ; for among the Commissioners were persons
who were known to be against the continuation of the con-
nection between Church and State; and there were others
who had neither the welfare nor the interest of the Church at
heart ; and that the Commissioners were not such as would
ensure those most deeply interested that the object of the Com-
mission would be carried into effect fully and fairly. A. re-
solution to that effect was carried in the General Assembly by
a majority of 87, not less than 90 voting for it, and 3 only against
it, or rather, they voted for a proposition for adjourning the
consideration of the subject. This was an extremely strong
proceeding for the General Assembly; for they never took
part in political discussions, unless they considered the interests
of religion deeply involved. Of the majority 50 were clergymen
and 40 were laymen, who were elders of the Church, men of all
parties and shades of political opinion. The resolution thus
carried was proposed by a rev. gentleman, who was known as
a Liberal, and entertained similar political opinions to the
Noble Viscount. The three persons who objected to the re-
solution were Whig attorneys, or as they were called in
Scotland writers to the signet ; and no others could be found
to do so. When the terms of the Commission were made
known the feeling of opposition was strengthened instead of
being diminished. He did not object to persons entertaining
the same political opinions as the Noble Viscount being put
on the Commission, but he thought that no person should be
named on it who was not a friend to the Church of Scotland.
He would, indeed, rather than not, that the political friends of
the Noble Viscount were placed on it. He did not object to
even Dissenters being placed on it, for he hoped and believed
that there were many Dissenters who were not hostile to the
Church of Scotland. But some of the Commissioners were
not only known to be hostile to the Church of Scotland, but
to the continuance of all establishments. He regarded it as
a complete mockery to put persons in a Commission to inquire
into the propriety of extending the endowments of the Church
of Scotland who were enemies to the continuation of any esta-
blishments. He was unwilling to name any of the persons he
thus alluded to as opposed to the Church, but as some doubt
was entertained by the Noble Viscount when he formerly
alluded to the subject, he (the Earl of Aberdeen) had brought
down a book written by one of the gentlemen to whom he
alluded. This work was ably written, and contained by far
the best arguments he had met with in favour of what was
called the voluntary Church principle; it was written with
great moderation, but at the same time it was manifest that
_the writer was most decidedly hostile to any establishment ; he
stated that an endowed Church was an unjust encroachment.
(The Noble Earl then proceeded to read an extract from, as
we understood, Mr. Dick's work on Church Government.)
He regarded the majority of these Commissioners as
entertaining opinions adverse to the Church of Scotland.
He also objected to this Commission, because it interfered
with the form of Presbyterian church government in Scotland.
He contended that the functions given to these Commissioners
belonged to the Church itself. The whole authority of the
Church was vested in the General Assembly. The King was
not even visitor of the Church of Scotland, and had no au-
thority whatever in it. It was also objectionable that these
Commissioners were directed to inquire not only into the funds
available for the purposes of the Established Church, but also
into the tithes, or teinds, as they were called in Scotland.
Nearly all these were the property of laymen, and ought no
more to be inquired into than any estates belonging to any
Noble Lord. lie ventured to say, without fear of contradic-
tion, that the powers entrusted to this Commission were per-
fectly illegal. A Commission might be appointed to inquire
into this subject, which would not cost the country one farthing
—namely, by referring the inquiry to the Commissioners that
had been appointed to superintend the building of Churches
in the Highlands. He was a member of the Church of Scot-
land, and had long been a ruling elder of it, and although he
had not lately taken an active part as an elder, he was most
warmly attached to the Church. He entreated, at all events,
that the subject should be looked upon without any regard to
party considerations ; and if the Noble Viscount found the
commission had now gone too far to be withdrawn, that the
Noble Viscount would at least explain the object of the Com-
mission, and endeavour to improve the composition of its mem-
bers.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Auousr 28.

Lord DF,NMAN took his seat on the Woolsack at five o'clock
PRISONERS' COUNSEL BILL.

Lord DENMAN said there were three Bills before the
House to which he begged to call their Lordships' attention.
The first was the Prisoners' Counsel Bill, which had
been referred to a Select Committee, before whom much
evidence had been taken, but he had not yet had an
opportunity of seeing it. Of course their Lordships could
not now form any judgment upon it, now when the Session
was so far.advanced.—( Hear, hear.) Under those circum-
stances he gave notice that on the next stage of the
Bill he would move that it be deferred for six months.
—( Hear, hear.) The next Bill to which he would
refer, was one making offences against the person felony, for the
purpose ofincreasing the punishment; that Bill depended so much
upon the preceding one that he would follow the same course as
with it. The next Bill to which he wished to refer was
one for abolishing capital punishments in cases of stealing
letters, and sacrilege. He had no objection to that Bill, and-
would propose that it be forwarded its stage to-morrow. He
had had an interview with the Lord Advocate as to the neces-
sity of the provisions being, extended to Scotland ; but he
thought it unnecessary. He had also seen the Attorney-Ge_
neral for Ireland, who thought it would be a great benefit if
the Bill included Ireland, and he would propose a clause so
to extend it.

Lord BROUGHAM entirely agreed in all that had fallen
from his Noble and Learned Friend. As to the Bill for allow.
ing counsel to prisoners in cases of felony, though he had
moved the Bill in that House, still, after hearing the evi-
dence given before the Committee by some of the most
eminent counsel—of Mr. Phillips, who had great experience
at the Old Bailey, and who was well known as a very warm
friend to the liberty of the subject, and also of his Noble Friend
( Radnor), who was a Recorder—(Laughter)—and a Ma-
gistrate of great standing, he was bound to say that evidence
now pressed upon his mind. Under these circumstances
he would not think he would be doing his duty if he pressed
forward the Bill.

The Earl of HA RR 0 WBY wished to say a few words upon
that Bill which the Noble Lord on the Woolsack was in-
tending to press forward.--( Hear, hear.) How was it
possible for their Lordships to make up their minds at all
upon the subject : they had no ground upon which to go? They
were now called upon to extend that Bill to Ireland upon the
mere ipso dixit of the Learned Gentleman, the Attorney-
General, as given by the Learned Lord upon the Woolsack.
He wished to call the attention of the House to the state to
which they were reduced, and he hoped some resolution would
be come to, in order to secure their having important Bills
sent up to them in proper time in the Session.
After a few words from Lord DENMAN and the Earl of HAR-
Rower,

Lord CLONCURRY said that generally they should le-
gislate for both countries, and the exception should be only
when particular clauses should render it improper to extend
the benefit of the laws of England to Ireland. He was sorry
to say that from late decisions in that House he was
led to doubt whether the same consideration and good
feeling was extended to both countries. Nothing had shocked
him so much as the decision of the House upon a Bill of great
importance, that for improving the constabulary force of Ire-
land,--( Hear.) That body, which was of the greatest import-
ance, had by m►smanagement and the too great delicacy of the
Government been perverted into a partizan force, and the peace
of the country was thus put in jeopardy. He was afraid that
the Ministry who brought it forward had influenced their de-
cision more than the calm consideration of the subject.—
( Hear, hear.) That measure had been recommended by
every Government of every political feeling in Ireland for a
number of years, and it would be attended with great danger if
the power of the police be continued, whilst it remained as it at
present was—a partizan force. He lamented to see that force
perverted into a body of partizans, rather than instruments
of justice.--( Hear, hear.) Let them legislate for Ire-
land as they did for their own country, and they would
have a grateful and a peaceful people ; but legislation
in the manner in which he was sorry to see it on this occasion,
would be giving arguments and power to the enemies of the
union between the two countries, and render sorrowful those
who supported it.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of LIMERICK—It was a most extraordinary
assertion of the Noble Lord, that the police force in Ireland
did not answer the purpose for which it was framed ; that it
was changed into an engine of faction, and that it did not
preserve the peace of the country. This was the first time he
ever heard such a statement.

Viscount MELBOURNE was quite aware that a consi-
derable degree of dissatisfaction prevailed among the members
of the Church of Scotland in regard to this Commission, and
that the greatest possible discontent prevailed in regard to it
among all classes of Dissenters, seceders, and others, who did
not conform to the doctrines of the Church of Scotland, but
who yet felt interested in regard to the question. Now, it
appeared to him that, next to universal content in regard to
a subject of this kind, perhaps the universal prevalence of
discontent was the very best proof of the propriety of the
choice made of this Commission ; for it was the next
best proof at least of impartiality.— ( Hear, hear, hear.)
The very existence of that universal discontent complained of
by the Noble Earl was a proof that, in the choice of Com-
missioners, the Government had been strictly impartial. He
admitted that it would be well if the Government could have
chosen Commissioners to conduct this inquiry who would be
strictly impartial in their feelings and sentiments in re-
gard to the Church of Scotland ; but, upon a little
consideration, it would be found that such a thing
was quite impossible ; for if the persons appointed Commis-
sioners were at all acquainted with the state of the Church,
they must be either favourable to it or dissent from it. And
if they were acquainted with the state of the Church, al-
though in that case they might be quite impartial, they
would want one of the prime requisites for the office, as they
would necessarily be ignorant. With regard to the book
alluded to by the Noble Earl, he considered, upon the whole,

Lord CLONCURRY—I did not say so.
The Earl of LIMERICK—The Noble Lord will have an
opportunity of explaining. It is most irregular to interrupt
me. The Noble Lord stated that the police force does not
answer its purposes.—( Hear.) I deny it. All persons agree
on the efficacy of that force, and that it has been of the
greatest service in preserving the peace of Ireland.
Lord DUNCANNON—There is no question before the
House.—( Hear, hear.) I move the third reading of the
Sheriffs' (Ireland) Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON— I have one observation
to make. The Noble Lord (Cloncurry) stated that the deci-
sion on the Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill, has been influ-
enced by party motives. Now, to impute motives to any
Noble Lord, or to any number of Noble Lords, is not quite
regular. I certainly did not vote against the Bill on the ground
which the Noble Lord imputes to me, and those who voted
with me.

The Sheriffs (Ireland) Bill was then read a third time and
passed.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved the third reading of this
Bill.

The Earl of BOSTON rose to oppose the Bill, but was
interrupted by the Earl of Carnarvon, who whispered some-
thing to the Noble Lord, upon which he said that having been
informed that the opponents of the Bill had given up their
opposition to it, he would not oppose it.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
The Tonnage Amendment. Bill, and the Weights and Mea-
sures Bill were severally read a third time and passed.

it was a very temperate and cautious production, and, in his
opinion, it ought not to disqualify the author from taking a
place in any such Commission as this was. Indeed, his im-
pression was, that the appointment to such a Commission as
this, was the best way of mitigating those opinions ; for when
a person came to inquire into the subject, he generally found
reason to see that there was no good reason for the violent
opinions previously entertained ; and such persons frequently
turned out not the least useful servants. With respect to the
objections against other gentlemen who formed the Commis-
sion, brought by the Noble Earl, he considered that the grounds
upon which they were founded were very slender ; and he
therefore would not enter into the consideration of them at
present. On the whole his conviction was, that the Commis-
sion was as fairly and impartially constituted as in the circum-
stances it could possibly be. With regard to the origin of the
Commission, it had entirely originated with the Church itself.
A demand for a grant of money for additional church-accom-
modation was made by the Church of Scotland. The advo-
cates of the Church, in support of the grant, said that there
was not sufficient accommodation for the number of worship-
pers who wished to attend the churches ; while those who
were against the Church, or dissented from it, said there was
more room in the churches which already existed than was
at all necessary for those who attended them. These con-
trary statements were made with so much confidence upon
both sides, that his Majesty's Government, before either ac-
ceding to or refusing the required grant, thought it prudent,
to institute an inquiry. That was the primary cause of this
Commission being issued, and the subject of inquiry. It was
true that the subject of inquiry was afterwards somewhat ex-
tended beyond that originally intended ; but that was done
strictly in pursuance with the wishes of the people of Scotland.
The Noble Earl said that this Commission was contrary to
the fundamental principles of the Church of Scotland, and it
was even beyond the powers of the King, or of any other power
on earth, to meddle with that Church. He (Lord Melbourne)
was not exactly master of the rules and doctrines of the Church
of Scotland upon this subject, and he did not mean to make an
attack upon the Noble Earl in regard to them; but lie would
ask the Noble Earl if he seriously meant to say, that if there
was an allegation made of any abuse in any of the vital and
fundamental principles of the Church of Scotland, that it would
be beyond the powers of the King, or of Parliament, to issue a
Commission to inquire into such an allegation ? That was a
reductio ad absurdum.—(Hear, hear.) It was holding out
higher pretensions for the Church of Scotland than was ever
attempted by the Roman Catholic Church in her proudest
days.--( Hear, hear.) It was precisely the objection which the
Roman Catholic Church brought against the Reformation.
(Hear, hear.) For the Roman Catholic Church then said
the laity cannot reform the Church, but the Church must
reform itself.---( Cheers.) It was precisely the doctrine of the
Church of Rome in regard to the Reformation. It was no
other and no less. He considered that such a proposition was
not only against law, but against reason and common sense.—
(Hear, hear.) The same might be said with regard to the
property of the Scotch Church.--(" No, no !" from the Earl
of Aberdeen.) Well, the subject was a good deal mixed up
with Scotch law, and he did not exactly follow the statement
of the Noble Earl, but at all events he understood that the
property of the Scotch Church was as liable to inquiry as
any other property. The Noble Earl then complained that
the persons who were appointed Commissioners had been
allowed the power of appointing other persons to assist them
in carrying on the inquiry. But surely it must be obvious to
any one that it was impossible to carry on an inquiry of this
extent without some such assistance.--( Hear, hear.) But-the
real question at issue was this :—the Church of Scotland de-
manded a grant of public money for the puipose of giving ad-
ditional Church accommodation. Now, if the Church of
Scotland demanded a grant of public money for the purpose
of carrying on spiritual instruction, had his Majesty not the
right to demand that the Church should show that it had not
already sufficient funds at its disposal for that purpose ?
( Hear, hear.) This was the ground, and the only ground,
upon which this Commission was issued. It was from the zeal
of the parties that the inquiry was made wider. With these
views he believed that the Commission was as well chosen as
it possibly could be. With regard to the powers and legality
of the Commission, there seemed to be an extraordinary degree
of obtuseness. It was said that it was not only illegal but
nugatory. With regard to its illegality, he thought there
could be no doubt that it was not so ; and as to its being nu-
gatory, he would only say that it was sought by themselves,
and that it at least was not compulsory. He thought that the
Commission was properly constituted. He regretted that it
had created so much dissatisfaction and dissension, but he
was in some degree consoled by feeling that the dissatisfac-
tion was not of a party nature, as the expression of it seemed
general. It sometimes happened, however, that very general
dissatisfaction gave place to very general satisfaction, and that
might perhaps be the case in the present intance. He there-
fore hoped that it would yet be found that this Commission
would fulfil, to the satisfaction of every party, all the ends
for which it was constituted, and that without any of the evils
or misfortunes which were so strongly anticipated by the Noble
Hear.)
The Earl of, HADDINGTON said that Parliament had
no right to intorfere`with the Church of Scotland, either in

MUNICIPAL CORPORATION BILL.
Viscount MELBOURNE moved that this Bill be read a
liird time.

----The Earl of WINC HI LSE A moved as an amendment,
:hat the Bill be read a third time this day six months.
The House divided, when there appeared
For the third reading
For the amendment, that it be read that day six
months

Majority for passing the Bill
On the question that the Bill do pass,
Several verbal amendments were proposed and adopted.

The Bill was then passed.
Lord MELBOURNE presented a petition from Ramsgate,
in which the petitioners expressed their entire dissatisfaction
with the Bill as it now stood.

Lord LYNDHURST was about to offer some obseiva-
tions iclative to the petition ; when
Lord DENMAN begged to interrupt the Noble and
Learned Lord. He bad omitted to put the question, that a
Message be sent to the House of Commons, acquainting them
that the House of Lords had passed the Bill with amend-
ments, to which they desired the concurrence of the Commons.
The question was then put and agreed to.
Lord LYNDHURST said, with reference to the petition
presented by the Noble Viscount, he had received a letter
that morning, stating that the 50 persons by whom the pe_
tition had been signed, would be got to meet upon any occa-
sion of revolution or anarchy.—( Oh, oh.)
After a few words from the Duke of WELLINGTON the
petition was laid on the table.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the pri.
soners confined for debt in York Castle, complaining of the
delay that had taken place in passing the Imprisonment for
Debt Bill.

Lord LYNDHURST remarked, that he bad received se-
veral letters complaining of the present state of the law on
this subject, and alluding to the hopes that were entertained
that it would be altered during the present Session. The Bill,
however, which had been sent up from the other House was
in such a shape that it could not possibly pass during the pre-
sent Session, if the least consideration was to be given to the
matter by their Lordships.
Lord BROUGHAM concurred with his Noble and Learned
Friend in thinking that it was not possible to get the Bill
through Parliament this Session ; but still he could not help
sympathising with the persons whose case was set forth in the
petition laid on the table. The Noble and Learned Lord
then presented a petition from Thomas Clark, who stated
that he had been unjustly confined in prison for thirty-eight
years, for a debt which he stated he never contracted, and
prayed that the Imprisonment for Debt Bill might pass.
Lord LYNDHURST stated, that this person was impri-
soned under the judgment of a Court of Law, and would not
submit, because he entertained the opinion that the Court had
pronounced an incorrect judgment.
The petition was then laid on the table.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.

The Marquis of BRE AD ALBANE presented a petition
from a place in Scotland, the name of which we could not
hear, praying their Lordships to pass the Municipal Reform
Bill in the shape that it had been sent up from the other
House. The petition was most numerously and respectably
signed. He was satisfied the Scotch Municipal Bill worked
most admirably---( Hear, hear)—and he felt bound to observe,
that he never was more astonished, in the whole of his Par-
liamentary career, than at the attacks thrown out against the
Town-councils elected under the Scotch Municipal Corpora-
tions Bill.

The petition was laid on the table.
The third reading of the Arrestmcnt for Wages ( Scotland)
Bill was postponed till that day three months, after a few ob-
servations from the Earl of ROSSLYN and Lord BROUGHAM.
THE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
The Earl of ABERDEEN rose to call the attention of their
Lordships to the Commission lately appointed to inquire into
the Church of Scotland. The Commission had been appointed
in consequence of the numerous petitions presented to Parlia-
ment last year, praying for an increase of the means of ex-
tending Divine worship in Scotland. His Majesty's Go-
vernment had issued a Commission to see whether any such
assistance was necessary h-i aid of the contributions which
had been raised for that purpose. When the names of the
Commissioners so appointed became known to him, he told
the Noble Viscount that the Commission, so far from being
looked upon with respect, would produce the greatest dis-
satisfaction throughout Scotland.--( Hear, hear.) About
this time the General Assembly of the Church of Scot-
land met, and the members of it came to a resolution
expressive of their opinion of the persons composing the
Commission. It was to the effect, that the General Assembly
hall recently had its attention called to the Commission lately