The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-09 00:00:00

suucced, .1 hey might talk of the danger of illegal combi-
nations, of resistence to the law, of the danger of the
people learning their own power, and of their capability •o
resist legil authority ; and all that was undoubtedly done,
but for it all there was only one remedy—that of making
:he law so as to inure for it the support of the opinions
of the people.—( Hear, hear.) But if the Parliament
should embark in any scheme of coercion, if it should adopt
measures of severity to support the Established Church—
that would be a fatal day when it entered upon such mea-
sures---it would meet with dangers such as it had not yet
encountered, for the feelings ot Irishmen never were stronger
and never were more unanimous than on this question, and
they were guided by good sense, justice, and mo leration.—
( Hear, hear.) What was proposed ? He would say he cau-
tious—(Haar, hear)—he cautious how you adopt !flea-
.rea of severity and co• reion• Were there not already
measures of severity erraugh ? There were severe liws to
compel or recover the payment of tithes • and were other
measures more severe to be adopted ? He hoped that at
least great caution would be used, for if they enforced
severe laws—if they adopted measures of coercion, it was
plain that the Governroent and the Parliament would sus-
tain a signal defeat. He would say one won d more, and
that was to entreat the Parliament promptly to apply it-
self to the subject. He wished that inquiry should he
speedily made into the whole subject. He would take
upon him to say, that, anxious ashe was to support tithes,
and anxious as he was to support the Church Establish-
ment, he was sure that, not one landlord could claim the
tithes as bin; he distinctly renounced for them and himself
all claims to tithes ; they were a public revenue, to be dis-
posed of for the public service.—(Hear, heir.) They
were endowments made by the State for the service of re-
ligion, and for the support of the clergy.—(Hear, hear.)
Acting on these principles, and acting on these views, he
would sty that so valuable a revenue should not be lost ;
that the whole question should now he gone into, and that
they should not wa't for the confusion of civil war losing
it altogether, but, directing it towards those proper pur-
poses for which it was already destined, it should now re-
ceive a popular application.—(Hear.) Tie Hon. Gentle-
man concluded by moving, " That with a view to a full
inquiry into the whole question of tithes, and to the just
appropriation of Church property, the debate be adjourned
till the whole of the inquiry was concluded by the Tithe
Committee, and the evidence and the report were both
laid before the House."

Mr. SHELL rose to second the motion, but gave way to I
Lord MILTON, who expressed himself sorry to inter-
pose between his Hon. Friend and the Learned Gentleman ;
but he wished to obssrve, that the suggestion of his Hon.
Friend dill not seem likely to attain the object he had in
view. He doubted the expediency of his Hon. Friend's
motion for postponing the debate, and thought it would
he better to allow the House to go into a Committee. A
stranger who had heard the speech only of his Hon.
Friend might have supposed that his Right Hon. Friend
had proposed only measures of coercion and severity, and
that they no re not accompanied by any propositions for
relief. He did not know what those measures were, but
he thought it most desirable to postpone the discussion till
they got into He Committee.—(Hear, hear.) If the
Committee adopted the suggestion of his Right Hon.
Friend, they might hear the proposition of Government.
He would not go into the question ; he merely wished to
throw out the suggestion that his Hon. Friend's amend-
ment did not seem to him so well adapted to attain his
own object as the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend,
Mr. O'CONNELL was not precisely ignorant of the
measures to be proposed by the Government, as they hid
been made known through the report, and he and his
friends did not oppose the motion because they did not
wish to bear those propositions, but because they thought
there was not sufficient knowledge obtained to go into the
subject. They knew that one of the measures to be pro.
posed by the Government wis to remunerate the clergy.
To that he and his friends did not object. The next was
to recover the dues, and to that they did not object ; but
there were ulterior measures—measures of coercion and
severity—and to those they objected. The Irish Represen-
tatives bad supported and praised the Government last
year, because, when the country was in a state of distur-
bance, it had asked for no extraordinary powers ; and he
could not supp,ise them now to he required, when the
country was in a state of armed neutrality. They could
now lead to no satisfactory conclusion. He thought ihe
information was not yet sufficient to adopt any measures,
and he should support the amendment.
Sir ROBERT PEEL suggested that there would be a
great advantage in separating their views, as to the order
of proceeding, and as to the discussion of the principles
of the proposition to be submitted by the Government.
There was a mixed discussion of two questions, and till
they were separated they could reach no satisfactory con-
clusion. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last thought
it would be better if his Majesty's Government would
come forward with a distinct proposition.—(Hear, hear.)
In his opinion it would be more satisfactory if his Majes-
ty's Government were enabled to state their proposition in
Committee, and for the House to dispose of it on its own
merit, and avoid all discussion as to the form of proceed-
ings. The question was, what course was most conform-
able to the usage and practice of the House ? and on offer-
ing his opinion on that, he gave no opinion on the merit
of the propositions to be submitted to the Committee.
Reserving bis opinion nn them till the proper time came
when they were proposed by the Government, he must
sly ih it the course proposed by the Government was most
conformable to the usage of the House. It was supposed
that one part of these propositions was to vote money for
the support of the clergy. If that be the case, as it is
impossible that his Majesty's Government can make any
propositions of that kind, except in Committee, it surely
would be inconvenient to discuss one part of the propel-
ticin in Committee, and the other part while the Speaker
oas in the Chair. There was also a standing order of the
House--an order to provide a security against any sudden
change in the religious establishments of the country, that
no business relating to religion, or to the laws concerning
religion, should ever be brought before the Hou-e till after
it hail been considered in Committee and agreed to. He
did not say that the propositions of the Government re-
lated precisely to religion, yet they were so connected scith
it, that it might be doubted whether it ought not first to
he considered in Committee. Besides, going into a Com-
mit tee was an additional security against surprise. By as-
senting to the Speaker leaving the Chair, Hon. Members
pledged themselves to nothing; and though the resoles
tions might be approved of in Committee, the House
might reject them on bringing up the report. It afforded,
therefore, an additions! opportunity for discussion, and he
considered that Loth friends and fees might concur in the
course proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman.
Going into the Committee was but a preliminary step ; it
, gave no advantage, and was only a security against preci-
pitate discussion.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHEIL—The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel)
has become the auxiliary of the Government. This does him
credit, and affords proof, if any was wanting, how much
superior he is to the prejudices of party. He would not
—he was shove it—turn the Government round upon a
point of form. A little reflection would convince him
that the Irish Members were not unreasonable in the
course they had adopted. They did not object to the re-
solutions, like the Noble Lord (Milton); they had not
sufficient sagacity to conjecture the course which the
Government meant to take. They objected to the pre-
mature report of which the Committee bad been suddenly
and abortively delivered.—(Hear.) They thought that
no legislation should be founded on this precocious docu-
ment. Wait, they said, for the final report.--(Hear.)
Therefore they met the proposition of the Minister on the
threshold, and said, " Do not act on a report resting ex-
clusively on evidence on one side." How stood the facts?
First, the Government had injudiciously introduced the
tithe system. Reform was a labour sufficiently Herculean
for their gigantic powers. Their next mistake was the ex-
clusion of Catholics from the Committee. This was un-
fortunate enough ; but to give consummation to this
calamitous proceeding, out of eighteen witnesses, they
had examined only one Catholic witness—(Hear)—and
then they produced their report, and went on with their
examination. It was as if the Jury were desired to retire
on the closing of the plaintiff's case; they find their ver-
dict, judgment (the report) is pronounced, and then the
defendant (Ireland) was requested to proceed with her
ease.—(Cbeers.) Was this just--was this fair dealing?
Wise
.this pure, impartial British justice? Eight
clergymen, four policemen, a Secretary to an Ec-
clesiastical Commission, a Registrar to an Ecclesiastical
Court, had been examined, and on such evidence a report,
recommending coercion to the people, and largesses
to the clergy, was produced.—(Hear.) This was
monstrous. If the Committee had confined themselves
to the recommendation of charity to the clergy, the Irish
Members could net complain ; but they came here with a
purse of gold for the Church, and a rod of iron for the
people.—(Hear, hear.) But since you are so strict in
investigating the offences of the one, what are the merits
of the other? The evidence proves that the clergy have
ministered to the excitement. Look at the evidence of
Mr. Langrishe (a name familiar to the readers of Edmund
Burke); he tells you that Dr. Hamilton, of Knockto-
pher (the scene of sanguinary disturbance), refused a just
composition, and refused twice to produce his books, in
order to enable a just estimate of his profits to be made.
Dr. Butler hints that he is a starving exile; yet he admits
that for thirty-six years he has received 2,0001. a year.
He has fourteen parishes, with scarcely a single Protes-
tant. This splendid sinecurist—be rosy be a good man--e