The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-27 00:00:00

TO PUBLIC SPEAKU S —MEMBERS OF THE
BAR, Cc.
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[ADVERTISRMENT.]
PATENT BRANDY VERSUS CHOLERA.

The following are IMPORTANT FACTS, with which the
public, at the present moment, ought to be fully acquainted.
First,—That BETTS'S " PATENT FRENCH DISTILLED

- -
BRANDY" is the only known pure Spirit in the World !
Secondly,—That while it possesses all the valuable pro-
perties which characterise the finest Cognac Brandy, it
is free from those acids which that spirit is known to

contain, and which are now so desirable to he avoided.
Thirdly,--That unlike other Spirits, the Patent Brandy
will not produce nausea or headache; hut, on the con-
trary, from its essential purity will be found congenial
to the most delicate constitution, and an invaluable sub-
stitute to persons of bilious and anti digestive habits.
Fourthly,—.That as an ordinary beverage, diluted in the
proportion of six to one, (as recommended by the first
Physicians), it is beyond all calculation preferable to
malt and other fermentable liquors, while its moderate
price brings it within the reach of nearly every class of

_
consumers.
Fifthly,—That all the faculty who are acquainted with the
transcendant merits of the Patent Brandy, recommend it
in preference to French Brandy for medicinal purposes.
Sixthly,—That it has been analyzed by a great number of
the most celebrated Chemists, whose opinions are un.i-
nimous as to its decided superiority, and from whose

certificates the two following extracts are made :
From JOHN THOMAS COOPER, Esq., Lecturer on Che-
mistry at the Medical School in Aldersgate-strcet—

" Your Brandy is free from uncombined acid and as-
" tringent matter, which exists more or lees in most of
" the Brandies imported from France."

" To Mr. Betts."
From JOSEPH HUME, Esq., of Long Acre, Chemist to
his illajegty—
" I am hound to say, and do assert it with confidence,
" that for purity of spirit, this cannot be surpassed, and
" that your Patent Brandy is also quite frte from those
" acids which, though minute in quantity, always conta-
minate the Foreign Spirit."
" J. T. Betts, Eq."

J. T. BETTS and Co. deem it expedient to state, that
their only Establishment is at No. 7, Smithfield-bus,
(leadinr to St. John-street,) where the Patent Brandy,
eitlor Pale or Coloured, may he had in quantities of not
less than two gallons, at 18s. per imperial gallon.
N.B.—A liberal discount to the trade.

'4-I)'Ef 10N VDITHT,

SUN OFFICE, Seven o'clock•.

IMPERIALPARLIAMENT

1 HIS EVENING.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. WRIGHTSON presented a petition from a con-
gregation of Unitarians in Hull, i❑ favour of the Govern-
ment plan of education in Ireland.—Ordered to be printed.
Colonel EVANS presented a petition from Rochdale,
praying that certain alterations might be made in the Bill
now before the House for the consolidation of the High-
way Acts, with a view of preserving the ancient footways.
He also presented a petition from the owners and masters
of fishing vessels belonging to Rye, respecting the mode of
licensing fishing boats. The Hon. and G illant Officer
then moved for returns, showing the number of rated
inhabitants of the parish of St. James's, who bad paid
their rates and assessed taxes on or before the 20th July.
Mr. BRISCOE said that the position of a portion of
the electors under the Reform Bill teas such, that they
would not he able to avail themselves of the provisions of
the Bill, in consequence of the shortness of time allowed
them to pay up their rates and taxes. He hoped his Al
jesty's Government would take the subject into their
consideration with a view to extend the time.—The mo-
tion was then agreed to.

Mr. STRUTT presented a petition from the town of
Derby for the abolition of Negro Slavery.
Mr. CHAPMAN presented a petition from a parish in
the county of Westmeath, against the Tithe Bill.
Lord SANDON presented a petition, signed by 1,700
merchants, &c. of Liverpool, praying that the rights of
the West India planters might be preserved when the
question of the Abolition of Slavery came under discussion
in the House.

The petition was ordered to be printed.
The Noble Lord moved for a return of the number of
vessels, and the aggregate tonnage, di,tinguishing British
from foreign, which entered the port of London with
cargoes from foreign ports between the sth July 1831 and
sth July 1832, showing those which had imported corn.

Mr. DIXON presented two petitions from the pro-
prietors of the Glasgow Railway, and from the inhabitants
of Garnkilk, against a clause in a Bill now before the
House which imposed a t,,x on steam-carriages.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL thought it exceed-
ingly unjust that a tax was laid upon the common stage
coaches, and not upon coaches of other descriptions. If
no tax were to be imposed upon steam-carriages, it would
only be fair to take off the tax from the other coaches.
Mr. JEPHSON thought that a fair trial should be al-
lowed the steam-carriages, before a tax was imposed on
them.

Mr. WARBURTON deprecated this tax on an inven-
tion which was quite new, and ought to receive every
encouragement. When they heard of the Americans run-
ning steam from Baltimore to the Ohio, they should do
all they could to keep up in the race with that country.
This would operate altoolt as a prohibition against the
use of steam carriages.

Mr. SPRING RICE said, it was by no means intended
that the tax placed on passengers by rail roads should lie
equal to that on passengers by stage coaches.
Mr. HUME could not but repeat his objections to taxes
on any species of communication; in his opinion it was
impolitic, and ought not to he continued. The
establishment of rail-roads would not be injurious, he be-
lieved, on the proprietors of stage coaches, as any defi-
ciency would be made good by the cross-road communica-
tions. Even if it was injurious, such was the facility it
would give to communication that it ought not to
be trammelled.—(Hear, he ,r.) The Honourable Member
thought the Bill ought not to be proceeded with till the
House had been furnished with further information on the
subject. It Lord Althorp thought lie could impose duties
on rail-roads, he would find himself very much mistaken.
Mr. HODGSON was not one of those who would give
a preference to steam comtnunicstion at the expense of
horses and stage coaches.
Mr. ROBINSON deprecated any favour being extended
towards rail-roads.
Mr. DIXON was surprised that the Right Hon. Mem-
ber opposite should think of putting horses and stage •
coaches in competition with steam-carriages. Ile was
firmly persuaded the Noble Lord (Althorp) would never
be permitted by the country to raise a tax on steam-power.
Lord ALTHORp had no wish whatever to put steam
camagts on rail-roads on the same footing with stage

Mr. CALLA(MAN presented a petition from the
parish of St. Shadwell, in the city of Cori:, complaining
that a public meeting had been advertised to be held at a
place called Blarney, and that it was dispersed by a large
body of military, a park of guns, and a posse of police,
under Sir Gorge Bingham, the High Sheriff and Alder-
man of C,,rk. The meeting had been intended to be held
to petition Parliament upon the state of Irish manufac-
tures, and had no political object in view whatever ; there-
for., the dispersion of it by such means was wholly illegal.
Mr. lIUME hoped the Secretary for Ireland would lie
be able to give some explanation upon this subject, for it
appnred to him there must be some mistake about it.
The people paid 20,000 men to keep the peace in Ireland,
and if the Magistrates and Govin-ntnent were permitted
to violate the Jaw, it was high time for the people to look
round them.

Mr. STANLEY could not tell the precise circumstances
under which the meeting was dispersed ; but this he knew,
that several meetings had been dispersed which were held,
not for the purpose of petitioning Parliament,
but for a totally illegal object—and, indeed, the ille-
gality of their character could not be doubted.
Mr. CALLAGHAN presented a similar petition from
Blarney, the place where the nitTting was to have been
held, which was three or four miles from Cork and was
the usual place of resort on holidays and Sundays.
Mr. LEADER supported the prayer of the petition. He
stated that a short time ago a polieetnan was indicted be-
fore the High Sheriff and Magistrates for attending a tithe
meeting in coloured clothes, and thowing a stone at the
military to excite them to use violence. The policeman
was found guilty. The lion. Member said there was a
strong contrast i❑ the conduct of the authorities in the two
cases.

Mr. STANLEY said the two subjects were wholly un-
connected with each other ; as to the story of the policeman
he had never heard of it before, and it appeared to him
highly incredible. The Government did not wish to pre-
vent any persona from attending a meeting called bona fide
to petition for a redress of grievances ; but it was well
known, the object of most of the meetings respecting Irish
manu'actutes was to compel persons to bind themselves to
purchase goods only of Irish manufacture, and to exclude,
und,r penalties, any person from buying English goods.
That was decidedly an illegal object.
After some observations from Mr. RUTHYEN and Mr.
CALLAGHAN, the petition was ordered to be printed.
Upcn the Order of the Day being called on for the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to make his usual financial
statement, _

Sir EDWARD SUGDEN rose and entreated the per-
mission of the House to make a few observations before
the financial statement was entered upon, upon what be
understood to have fallen from a Noble and Learned Lord
elsewhere last night.—(Hear.) That Noble and Learned
Lord, he (Sir Edward Sugden) had no hesitation in
saying, bad made use of expressions towards him
which no Gentleman who had a regard fur his own per-
sonal honour, or who, if devoid of personal honour, if he
were acting under psrsonal fear, would have dared to have
used towards another Gentleman in his presence. Those
expressions were so far removed from what one met
with in society, so far removed from what he could
have supposed would have fallen from the Noble and
Learned Lord in his exulted situation, and in a place in
which he ought to have set an example of decorum—
expi essions so degrading to the person who had used them—
Mr. STANLEY rose to order. He conceived the
course the Hon. Gent. had taken was totally at variance
with the rules of order of that House. It a charge was
made against an Hon. Gentleman of that House respect-
ing his conduct there, no doubt that Hon. Gentleman had
a right to defend hiosself trom such an attack ; but if the
House were to tie entertained by listening to strong ex-
pressions made use of by an Hon. Member against whit
he conceived to have been strong expressions used by a
Noble Lord elsewhere, then the mutual respect which was
due to both Houses of Parliament, and the dignity of their
proceeding, must for ever be at an end. Particularly
as the lion. and Learned Gentleman had given notice for
another day, on which he meant to enter into the
charges he had now alluded to, he (Mr. Stanley) thought
it would be much better for the Learned Genleman to
avoid entering upon the subject at present, particulatly
in his now excited state of feelings.
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN said he could not understand
the meaning of the interruption he had received from
the Right Honourable Gentleman. He ventured to
say that no one on the part of the party to whom he
alluded, had felt the slightest regret at the charges that
were used against hint in another place.—(Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER believed the lion. and Learned Gen-
tleman was out of order, and that what the Right Hon.
Gentleman had mentioned as the rule of the House
was undoubtedly that which the House ought to attend to.
If the Right Hon. Gentleman had intended to comment
on what he understood to be imputations which some men
might conceive to be applicable to the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman, but which he could not show
were not applicable to him, the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman bad undoubtedly a right to make such a re-
presentation.
Sir E. SUGDEN was always obedient to the orders
of the House, but since he had been in that House
he had never heard an attempt made on the
part of any one to prevent an offended Member, when
that Member belonged to the party to whom he now
alluded, fom defending himself.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") That right hal now been denied to him.—
He had been deeply offended. It was utterly impossible for
any Gentleman to offend another more than he had been
on the present occasion ; and yet by the inter-
position of the Right Honourable Gentleman he had
been prevented from doing justice to himself.—(Hear.)
He (Sir Edward Sugden) had never used language towards
that Noble and Learned Lord which he might not have
heard with every possible composure. The Noble Lord
presided in the very Court in which he (Sir E.) practi.eil.
In that situation he was entitled to demand respect from
him; but from henceforth he should respect the office, not
the person, and would always have to fed that he was ad-
dressing a man in that Court who had forgotten to act
as a gentleman or as a man. He deeply felt that in his
absence words should have been levelled at him such as had
been used—his conduct had not called for it. He was
a very bumble person, but the language that had been
used was painful to one's feelings, disaoveable to one s
children, occasioned sorrow to one's Jrisnds, and he for
once, and for ever, declared that he hail lost all personal
respect for the one from whom such language could have
proceeded.
Mr. STANLEY explained.
Sir R. PEEL.—Sir, I have read the expressions re-
ferred to by my Hon. and Learned Friend with sentiments
of the greatest disgust.
Mr. STANLEY—Are they correct?
Sir R. PEEL-1 have heard no imputation upon them.
—(Several Hon. Members, " Order, order.)
Sir R. PEEL—I may be put down by reference to
technicalities, but I feel that this is a suhj et of deep im-
portance, not only to my Learned Friend, who, I think, has
shown a proper sense of what is due to himself in the
notice he had taken of these expressions, but to the pri
vlieges of this House.—(Cheers.) When this subject was
mentioned the other day, 1 stated that having heard the
Noble Lord's evidence given with respect to it, 1 was satis-
fied that the appointment which he he had made was
only p.ovisional, and that be meant to abolish the office
in
question ; but still 1 heard nothing in the speech of
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, which was
at all incousistent with the performance of his public
duties, as a Member of this House.—(Cheers.) Two
offices, notorious sinecures, fell vacant and they were
filled up. Whit was more natural than that a
Honourable Member of this House should make
an inquiry upon the subject.—(Cheers ) In former
times an hour would not have passed without a question
being put to the Government on such a subject. I srke
twice in the course of the evening, and sated my opinion
to he that further discussion was then premature, but that
I had no doubts the appointments were provisional.

Answers having been given to the question of my Ho-
nourable. and Learned Friend, a Noble Lord in anoth, r
place, at the head of the profession to whirl
my Honourable and Learned Friend belongs,—(Cheers)—
the Chief Judge of the kingdom, the Peer who presides in
the other branch of the Isgislature describes a Member
of this House of Parliament in terms which would
effectually deter many individuals shrinking abuse—
shrinking from the castigation of the Noble Lord—
shrinking from the sarcasm his command of
language gave him power to inflict—shrinking from
the ruin which such an attack might bring upon a
professional man—would, I say, deter many from
performing their duty in this House.—(Cheers.) Sir, iny
respect for that Noble Lord, my admiration of his talents
will prevent me quoting the opprobrious expressions which
he is said to have used, but when he describes a Member
of this House as a crawling reptile, as an insect in
the most offensive terms, the House may judge
what his language must have been. I agree in the in•
convenience of referring to the protteedipg of the other
House, but if a gentleman is to to be attacked in
such terms in the other House, he must either
submit to the opprobrium cast upon, or endeavour
to cast it off —(Hear, bear, hear.) I deeply regret
from the feelings I have always entertained towards
that Noble Lord, that he should so far have forgotten
himself as to attack a Member of this House on terms
so offensive, and I will say so undeservedly offensive as
those the Noble Lord has said to have used with
respect to my Honourable and Learned Friend.—
The Right Hon. G-ntleman seems to cast a doubt upon
the correctness of this report, but the one I rerer to is
in the Times, and certainly if we may judge
of the correctness of a report, by its elaborateness, this
bears upon it the marks of being correct, but I 811411 he
glad to hear that it is not so.
Lord ALTHORP begged to say that his Noble Friend
had told him this morning the report in the Times and
another paper was most incorrect. In what respect it
was incorrect his Noble Friend did not say, and
as he (Lord Althorp) did not hear his Noble
Friend, he could not say whether the complaint of incor-
rectness, applied to the sentiments or expressions.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) He deprecated, however,
b indying backwards and forwards from one House
to the other strong expressions most unbecoming
the dignity of either House, and the convenience
of thoir paoceedings.—(Hear, hear.) He would only
add, that no objection having been taken to those ex-
presions i❑ the other House of Parliament at the
time was a fact which might lead to the presumption
that the report was exaggerated.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said he was quite willing to be-
lieve, and hoped that such was the case, thst the
report in the public papers was, incorrect incorrect
but the best proof of that would befit
Noble Lord taking the earlies apparportunity of contra-
dieting it in his place, since he had not, which he
should have thought the first necessary step, assured the
victim that he hid not used the calumnious
expressions attributed to him.

(LEFT SPEAKING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Mr. BERNAL and others from the Commons, brought
up the Prisoners' Removal (Ireland) Bill—the Russisn
Dutch Loa❑ Bill—the Tax Cart Bill—and the Charitable
Institutions Bill.

Mr. TOMLINS, from the Treasury, presented copies
of the correspondence with the Post Office.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from
Galway against a clause in the Ii ish Reform Bill,
The Earl of RADNOR presented several petitions from
parishes in Ireland against tithes.
On the Russian Dutch Loan Bill being read a first time,
Earl GREY hoped there would be no objection to its
being read a second time on Monday.
The Militia Bill next went through a Committee, and
was ordered to be read a third time on Monday.

The Marquis of LANSDNWNE presented a petition
from Derby against slavery.
The Report of the Committee on the Irish Reform Bill
having been presented at twenty minutes past five o'clock,
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the House had not
for some days past begun business so eirly ; he therefore
hoped a quarter of an hour would be given, in order that
Noble Lords who intended to take part in the debate on
this Bill might have time to arrive.
Earl GREY assented to this request.
_ _

At half-past five o'clock Earl GREY remarked it was
now time to proceed with the business, and if anything
was intended to be said on the Bill, the di.,cussion would
he taken on the third reading.
The report was then brought up, when
The Duke of WELLINGTON proposed a clause re-
lative to the rights of freemen in cities and boroughs. We
understood the purport of it to be to continue the right to
all children of freemen born before the passing of the Act.
This was a principle admitted in the English Bill, and if
it was right for England, he did not see why it should not
be so for Ireland.

This clause was opposed by Lord MELBOURNE, and
supported by the Earl of RossLYN and the Marquis of
BUTS• _ _ _

After a long discussion on the subject between the Duke
of WELLINGTON, Lords PLUNKET and RODEN,
The Earl of HARROWEY suggested the clause be
postponed till the third reading, which was agreed to.
Lord RODEN, before the Report was received, was
anxious to know whether the rights of freeme❑ were to be
preserved in Ireland as they were in England ?

Earl GREY answered iti the affirmative.
The House then Adjourned.

THE LONDON GAZETTE

THIS EVENING.

DECLARATIONS OF INSOLVENCY,

WILLIAM HENRY PARDOE, Cardiff; Glamorganshire,
cart enware-dealer.
WILLIAM ALFRED WARWICK, Romford, Essex, spirit-
dealer.

BANKRUPTCY SUPERSEDED.
GEORGE BAREHEAD, Norton, Yorkshire.
BANKRUPTS.

ROBERT JOSIAH aA2,la; and JAMES WALTER
WARD,Maltion, Essex, butchers.
ARN LD SHIPMAN, Dudley, Worcestershire, innkeeper.
WILLIAM MAUD, Bradford, Yorkshire, grocer.
JAMES KELSON, Bradford, Wiltshire, brewer.
WILLIAM LATHAM, Stow Park, Lincolnshire, higler.
ROBERT M'W ATT, Billiter-street, Leadenball-street, oil
and colour-merchant,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JuLr 26.

O'CONNOR DON presented a petition from a parish
in the county of Roscommon, against the tithe system.
Mr. WALKER presented two similar petitions from
parishes in the county of Wexford, and one from a parish
in Carlow.

Mr. THICKNESSE presented petitions from the dis-
senting congregations of two chapels in Liverpool, in
favour of the plan of national education in Ireland.—
They were ordered to be printed.
Mr. WILKS presented a petition from the mayor, de-
puty recorder, magistrates and clergymen of Newport,
in the Isle of Wight, praying for an alteration of the 10th
Geo. IV. chap. 56, relative to friendly societies, particu-
larly as regarded an extension of the period of enrolment.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL brought up returns of
the Judges and other officers connected with the Court.
Colonel EVANS rose to propose resolutions and to move
for returns concerning the military establishments of this
Country, and said he felt confident that if his suggestions
were ttclopted by the Government a saving of 1,800,0001.
to 2,000,0001. a year would he effected.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) It was now nearly two years since
the Government had been in office, during which time
most of their attention had been occupied by a great and
important object, which was now happily set at rest.
Hon. Members would recollect the promise which they
gave to their constituents at the last election, that they
would exert the utmost econotny in the distribution of public
money, and therefore he sincerely hoped, that so large a
sum as he had mentioned would be rescued for the
People. It should be recollected also that when the mili-
tary estimates were brought forward there was an under-
standing, that in consequence of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Sir J. Hobhouse) having but just come into office,
and for various other reasons, all discussion upon the esti.
mates should be avoided. The present time, therefore, he
thought most opportune for bringing forward the subject
His first resolution in effect was, that the prospect of the
internal security and tranquillity of the country, as well as
Its strength, having been much increased by the passing of
the Reform Bill, the necessity for a reduction in military

establishments was most apparent The next resolution
proposed the reduction of certain items, which might wed
he dispensed with. The first redoetion was with reference to
persons in Chelsea Hospital—the grooms and servants of offi
cers, the removal of whom, and the placing of the affairs of
the college on a moderate scale, would effect a saving of newt,.
8,0001. a year. The pensioners, too, cost the countr
three times as much as when they were in active service.
A considerahle saving might be effected by allowing them
a certain stipend, anti permitting them to live in
the surrounding villages. In the civil department of
the College, 40 or 50 clerks might be dispensed with, by
which the country would save 5,0001. or 6,000/. a year.
The salary of one of the Governors might also be reduced,
for it appeared from the returns that he held three or four
offices, so lie would be well provided for. By this means a
saving, probably, of 3,000/. year might be effected,
which, together with the other items he had stated, would
make a total of nearly 10,0001. a year in that department.
In the Military Asylum great reductions might also I e
made by giving each corps a certain allowance, and causing
them to bring up seven or eight boys. By this
probably the saving would extend to 13,0001, a year, in-
dependent of the expense of building and keeping up the
establishments. The nest item to which he would allude
was the 'Waggon Train, and though it was a
small item, still a great saving might be made
in it. A suggestion had been made that carts could
be used with much more effect than those four-horse wag-
gons, anti they would have a great recommendation by
costing nothing after the first purchase, and of not costing
the country a single farthing during opeace. The
next item he came to was the yeomanry. He
considered the Irish yeomanry were rather hostile than
conducive to the maintenance of peace, therefore he would
propose that they should altogether be abolished ; and for
the small yeomanry force in England, he thought that the
few hundred men belonging, to them hid as much public
spirit as the 1,200,000 National Guards in France, who
received no more than their arms anti accoutrements. The
saving to be effected in this was 65,0001. a-year. The next
item was the militia, upon the staff of which he found that
there was a whole army of sergeants and drummers ; Le
proposed to reduce six serjeants and two drummers
from every corps, which, if extended to Ireland, would
effect a saving of about 27,0001. He next alluded to
the district recruiting service in Ireland. He proposed
to abolish all the establishments but the two head ones.
The saving to he effected by this alteration he estimated at
18,000/. The next department which could with propriety
be reduced, was that for manufacturing stores and for co.
loni ,1 fortifications. The BUM of 15,000,000/. had been
expended in colonial fortifications during the war. The
fortifications of Canada, the weakest in the world, has
cost the country 2,000,000/. 500 miles out of the 700,
through which the fortifications extended in Canada, were
as week as ever they were. £40,000. had been voted for
carrying on those works, of which not more than 10,0001.
had boen expended. He would recommend the Govern-
ment to stop the works, whereby a saving of 30,000 L
would be made, together with 180,000/. more, which it
was calculated would he called for hereafter. The Hon
and Gallant Member then proposed that a reduction
should be made in the amount of the foreign half-pay.
Many of the officers who were receiving pay from England
held lucrative situations in their respective countries.
This he thought was an evil which ought instantly to be
abated, and if the foreign half-pay were abolished, the
country would save 100,0001. a year. The regiments of
Guards might be placed upon a more economical footing
at present they cost 60,000/. more than an equal number
of troops of the line. The last point to which he would
refer was the superabundant number of officers in the
army. He thought that one major, two captains, and four
subalterns, might be reduced in every regiment of ca-
valry. Napoleon accounted for the unnecessarily large
number of officers attached to our army, by supposing
that the character of our soldiers was so bad, as to ren-
der it impossible to draw any but non-commissioned
officers from the ranks. There was much truth in that
observation. It was of the greatest importance that the
character of the soldiers should he improved, and as one
means of effecting that object, he would abolish the de-
grading practice of flogging. If examples of promotion
from the ranks were more frequent, persons would
be induced to serve as privates, of a better class than those
who now enlisted. He next adverted to our large mili
tary force, which, including volunteers and militia,
amounted to 200,000, of whom 80,000 were effective. If
the military force were reduced to the amount at which
stood when the present Ministers entered office, a great
saving would be effected. Ministers had increased the
army in Ireland from 16,000 to 20,000 men, and he was
sorry to hear that an additional body of troops was about
to ha sent over to that country. Looking to the whole
subject, he could see no excuse for maintaining a military
establishment so large as the present, except the state of
Ireland, and he hoped and trusted that Government would
persevere in a course of policy towards that country which
would render a continuance of the old system of coercion
unnecessary. The Hon. and Gallant Member moved for
returns of the Dumber of military officers of each rank in
the effective state of the army that were Members of
the House of Commons ; for returns of the periods of ser-
vice of majors and colonels, with a statement of the mode
in which they had obtained their commissions; and con-
cluded by proposing (as the natural sequence of the
healing measure of Reform) a series of resolutions, having
for their object reductions in the following departments:—
Chelsea Hospital ; the Irish yeomanry; the English mi-
litia ; regimental depot reserves ; the enlistment service :
stores for the ordnance, and construction of canals; the
military establishments in Ceylon and the Mauritius; the
foreign half-pay list ; the household troops ; and the esta-
blishments at Malta and other stations abroad.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE would beg leave to re marls.
that however important the resolutions might appear to Is'
in the estimation of the Gallant Colonel himself, it would
seem, from the abandoned state of the benches around him,
that they were not of very great weight in the eyes of the
House of Commons. With respect to himself, be did not
conceive that he was called upon, as Secretary at War, to
touch upon a nrimber of the topics involved in the resolu-
tions. He could not allow that because the great measure of
Reform had been'passed under Ministerial auspices, the views
of individual Members of Parli fluent should therefore b,
acceded to. While he admitted the expediency of making
all practicable reductions, still it could not be supposed
that any Member not official could lay those details before
them on which reduction could be founded. No doubt, if
economy alone were to be consulted, many reductions
roioLit be made; but the question for them to consider war,
whether or not such changes would prove beneficial to
the country. The Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to ad-
vert to the resolutions in detail, contending that their
adoption would be inexpedient, and maintaining that
every practicable endeavour was made at the War-office to
lessen the expenditure. He would offer no objectiou to
the production of the first returns moved for by his Hon.
and Gallant Friend ; and with regard to the second, he
would meet it as far as the limited means at his disposal
would permit. As to the condition of the army, he had
been informed, that if it were our misfortune to go to war
to-morrow, we had the command of as fine a force, both
in respect of officers and soldiers, as had ever entered a
I field of battle.—(Hear.) He would admit that in the
struggle for promotion, officers of distinguished merit might
occasionally fail in receiving adequ ite preferment. Yet,
on the whole, he could not help thinking that the officer-
ing of the army was carried on upon as fair a system as
could well be adopted. On the other hand, there were
instances of merit being rapidly promoted. He held in
his band the appo'ntment of the Gallant Colonel himself,
from which it appeared that he had risen from the rank of
Lieutenant to that of Lieutenant-Colonel, in the short
space of five months—(llear)—and the whole time of hi-
distinguished services was only eight years and three
months. Repeating the assurance that every practical,
reduction would he made, he regretted to say that he could
not altogether agree with his Gallant Friend on one indi-
vidual point, and conceived it better to meet his proposal
by moving the previous question.
Mr. HUME in seconding the motion of his Hon. and
Gallant Friend, was of opinion that we had been too long
under what he would call the old military system. The
present mode of promotion appeared to him a proof that
Lord Hill and Lord Fitzroy Somerset had not pro-
perly discharged their official duties. His Gallant Friend
had omitted to notice the heavy staff at head-quarters,
which he (Mr. Hume) looked upon as an undue burden
upon the public resources. The Hon. Member went on
to observe, that with an expenditure of upwards of
1 200,000/. beyond our income, with about 9,000,000/.
of that expenditure for our army and ordnance alone—and
this ton, in the 186 year of peace—it was too much in
times of professions of economy,—and he was willing to give
the Noble Lord opposite and his colleagues credit for the

.intention as well as the preession —hut he repeated that
it was too much to be now told th .t this expenditure
could not he reduced. We were now in the second year of
office of the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and we found
that the expenditure was increased rather than re-
duced. They had been told that they could not reduce
the establishment at Chelsea in any large amount ; but
that, besides economy, we should also look to the honour
and dignity of the army. Now be would beg to ask, wail
the utility equal to the expense-- or at all in proportion to
it ? It was a fact, that every invalid in that establishmei t
cost the country as much as three efficient soldiers of the
line. Was such an expense necessary? It was admitted,
nine years ago, by the then Paymaster of the Forces now
a Noble Lord in the other House, that some reduction
ought to be made in the staff of that establishment ; but
since then, nothing had been done. He must also object
to the scale of extravagance on which some of our nth, r
military establishments, and particularly our schools, well
kept up. He had no objection to the principle of the mili-
tary schools ; but he did object, as unnecessary, to the great
expense attendant on the mode of conducting them. He
must also object to the system of our militia and yeomanry
staff. He was not satisfied with the Right Honourable
Baronet (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) not being able to give any
explanation of the great increase which hail taken place in
our colonial military establishments, or why they should
now be more than they were in 1823. He must like-
wise express his dissent from the alleged necessity of keep-
ing up such an immense military force in Ireland; treating
her as if she were a conquered colony. Before the French
war a military force of 8 000 or 9,000 men were found
sufficient in Ireland, but now he did not know whether
the force was 30,000 or 32,000 men. On the whole, he
thought that great reduction might be made in all the
items on which his Hon. and Gallant Friend had touched,
and that too without any injury to the public service. In
ene thing he fully concurred wi,h his Hon. and Gall tnt
Friend, that the moral character of the army was greatly
deteriorated by the debeseil system of flogging which was
still continued in it. Such was the effect of that system
on the minds of the public, that many able-bodied men of
our peasantry, who were w-dking about wiiheut employ-
ment, preferred a precarious subsistence from the poor
rates, rather than enter the army. The consequence was
that in many instances it was recruited from the idle, the
dissolute, and disorderly.
Lord ALTHORP was stare the Hon. anti Gallant Mem-
ber who introduced this subject, as will as his Hon.
Friend who last addressed ate House, had no expectation
that any of the reductions they proposed could be carried
into effect in the present session. He must say, his Right
Hon. Friend (Sir J. Hobhouse) was net well treated by
his Hon. Friend who last addressed the House. His Hon.
Friend hail gone into a variety of details, in some of which
he might be right, and in sonic wrong; but because his
Right Hon. Friend near him was not prepared at that
moment to enter into those details or to adopt them, his
Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex held him up as
being opposed to all economical Reform. This surely was
not acting fairly. His Hon. Friend, and the Hon. and
Gallant Officer, talk,d of the army of England being
65,000 men. He did not know where they obtained that
amount, but the - returns before the House did nut
make them more than 26,000, and even taking the ma-
rines and the militia, which were not all embodied, they
would not amount to the number they had stated.
Every one who considered the circumstances of the
counts y would admit the necessity of a levee military
force for the Unite i Kinedem. -Whatever was the cause
of the discontent in Ireland, into which he would not
enter, the necessity of maintaining a large military esta-
blishment in that country must be admitted. Objections
were made some time ago to the employment of the yeo-
manry instead of the regular troops in Ireland. He was
disposed to concur in those objections, but now, when the
number of the regular force was increased, a complaint was
made against the increase.—(Hear, hear.) He would
agree with his Hon. Friend, that the best way would be,
if possib!e, to remove the cause of discontent in Ireland ;
but while it was in its present state, the presence of a
large military force was the only, way to protect the public,
and to guard against violence. He meant not to follow
the Gallant Officer through all his details, which, in his
opinion, had been satisfactorily answered by his Right
lion. Friend. The Gallant Officer hail particularly al-
luded to the subject of unattached corumissions; but,
with respect to them, his Right Hon. Friend bad followed
the course pursued by the Right Hon. Member fur the
cQen'se du ee tcnoiunn tti),
ffi' caen. d oHt hee
hr
olpieodn
anGentlemen,
twh
to
hheari
el
apf
tr
ee r-
Ministers would be enabled to reduce the number of the army.
He entirely agreed in the proposition that it was the duty of
Government to reduce the expenditure in every department;
and that they were determined to do to the utmost of their
power.—(Hear, hear.) The circumstances in which they
were placed when they first came into office, rendered it
necessary for them to add something to tLe military force.
They could not possibly avoid it. The lion. Member for
Middlesex had s aid, " Why not trust to the people of
England, instead of keepine up a great military establish-
ment ?" Did the Hon. Member recollect the situation in
which the country was placed when Ministers came into
office? At that time the burning of ricks, and the de-
struction of property. were general throughout the country;
As to the subject of CIOWI3, he would riot then enter into
it. He very well knew that if the people of Canada wished
to shake off their ceunnection with this country, it could
not be prevented. But if, on the other hand, the inha-
bitants of Canada were anxious to continue that connexion,
then he thought it was only tight that we should give
them the means of defending themselves. Ile believed
that much unnecessary expense had been incurred with
respect to Canada, but he conceived that it would he bail
policy now not to complete that which had been 83 far car-
ried on. In laying before the House to-morrow the esti-
mates for the current year, he thought he would be able
to stow that the finances of the country were not in so
bad a state as some gentlemen were inclined to suppose.—
( Hear, hear.)

Sir G. MURRAY said the Right Hon. the Secretary
at War, if he had not answered satisfactorily to the Hon.
arunecessary l Gallant movweirt,h
referencelasthadatto such a o
imparted all tthi
motion
a sthat
informa-
tion
which appeared on the paper. But the subjects introduced
were of the most varied and'dissimilar description. Not
only were the colonies and the colonial system brought be-
fore the House, but even the Church establishment of Ire-
land was dragged forward.—(Hear.) As to the amount of
the military establishment, he should make no remark, be-
cause he entirely agreed with the Noble Lord, that that
was a point, with reference to the number of troops both
at home and abroad, that ought to be left to the Govern-
ment, who had within their reach information that those
not in office could not be supposed to have. He lamented
as much as any man the unfortunate situation of Ire-
-land, but it was quite evident to him, that while dis-
turbances continued in that country, it was necessary
to keep up a considerable military force. " But (said the
Gallant Officer) look to France. Why net follow her ex-
ample? There you find 1,200,000 national guards, who
only put the state to the exr.ense of arms and accoutre-
ments." Had the Hon. and Gallant Officer calculated
what that expense would be ? Had he considered that be-
sides the National Guards, France had a regular army of
400,000 or ,500,000 men ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hen.
and Gallant Officer had referred to Napoleon's opinion of
the English army; and it certainly surprised and grieved
him that such an allusion should have been made by a
British officer. Napoleon, it seemed, had made three ob-
jections to the constitution of the British army. First,
that it was recruited by money. Surely it was better thus
to recruit it than to have recourse to the system of con-
seription—a species of tyranny which the youth of France
took every possible means to avoid. Secondly, it was al-
leged that the British army was recruited from the gaols.
This was not a fact; but even if so, a British
officer ought rather to have drawn a veil over the cir-
cumstance, than to have exposed it to the view of the
world. Lastly, it was said that our non-commis.
sinned officers were bad—that they never were raised
to the rank of commissioned officer 4. Th..t he de-
nied. In the regiment to which he had the honour to
command, not less than 40 non-commissioned office,B had
been raised to the rank of commissioned officers.—( Hear.)
The fact was, that Napoleon knew nothing of the British
army until he encountered them at Waterloo ; and then,
for the first time, he was taught rightly to appreciate the
valour and discip!ine of a British army, and the consum-
mate ability of a British General.—(Hear.) The gallant
officer then proceeded to defend the formation of the
wagi:on. train, and show the neceesi'y, as well as the policy,
of keeping up the establishments of Chelsea and Minain-
ham, for the support of old and disabled soldiers. He
then briefly alluded to the importance of retaining adequate
garrisons in Malts and Gibraltar, and concluded by ob-
serving, that though he did not, perhaps, place so much
confidence in Ministers as the Hon. Member for Middlesex
did, still he believed that they were anxious to make every
just and proper reduction in the expenditure of the country.

Sir H. PARNELL was ready to support the different
reductions which the Hon. and Gallant Officer proposed;
but sonic of them did not go so far as lie had himself in-
tended to push them. He admitted theHgeretaitioluiefi.ittstiolef
several commanders•in-chief: but, in his opinion, they
had too touch controul over the ISaii:)nnc.iaalntdeGpaarltli:nettioto
the army, and from that controul, he conceived, tie
e6Se-
cretaryoener,froyr atwb raWisngairrneogauttilhr ti:adtr:(bi
tte.bhdei
this
ormetli,
)ile:ivoef,nil.
Sir A. DALRYMPLE said, it was evident to him that