The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-05 00:00:00

that no misstatements would go forth, and that a vast deal of
time would be saved to the public.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL would suggest the propriety
,to
the Hon. Member, that under these circumstances his motion
should be withdrawn.
Col. SIBT HO RP in reply, said he had examined the books,
and he could assure the House that no such returns
had been made since 1829. The motion, as we understood,
was withdrawn.

Mr. BRADSHAW moved for various returns, but in so
ow a tone of voice that we were unable to distinguish their
mport.

KING LEOPOLD'S INCOME.

Sir ROBERT—PEEL, in reply to the question, asked him
that night by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Robin-
son) respecting the saving out of King Leopold's sa-
lary, stated, that a considerable sum had been paid
into the Bank. The Noble Lord, the Member for Lanca-
shire (Lord Stanley) who was one of the trustees of the fund,
possibly could supply some information on the subject, and be
able to confirm the statement that he (Sir R. Peel) had made.
Lord STANLEY said the Right Hon. Baronet was per-
fectly correct in his statement. The House was aware that
the trustees entered upon their trust in the month of June
last ; a considerable sum was paid into the Bank, and
as it required that all the Trustees should s;gn the transfer,
no transfer in consequence of the absence of the Hon. Mamber
for Coventry ( Mr. Ellice) who was one of the Trustees could be
made to the Exchequer until his return from the Continent.
The balance now lying in hand was more than 27,0001. Next
year the amount that would be paid to the credit of tile fund
will be 34,000/. ; and as the rent of Marlborough House would
then cease, 40,0001. out of the original 50,000/. would be
paid off.
Mr. ROBINSON, after the satisfactory explanation of the
Right Hon. Baronet, and the Noble Lord, consented to with-
draw his motion.
IRISH CENSUS.
;Mr. SHEIL moved that copies of the returns of the Com-
missioners cf Public Instruction, who had been employed in
taking the census of the popul ition in Ireland, should be laid
upon the table.
Mr. LITTLETON begged to submit to the Hon. Gentle-
man whether it would not be proper for him to give a
notice of such a motion. He (Mr. Littleton) was one of the
Commissioners, and he believed that all the returns would
shortly be laid on the table of the House.
Mr. SHE IL said he would not press his motion.

NEWSPAPER PROSECUTIONS.
Mr. CURTEIS begged to ask tho Solicitor-General if
he intended to propose a bill of indemnity to protect 'the
printers and publishers, whose residences were not properly
registered, from the penalties to which such omission rendered
them liable ? If the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
was not prepared to bring in a specific Bill on the
subject, probably he would introduce a prospective clause to
protect these parties from the consequences of such infor►na-
tions. The House was aware that the proprietor was liable for
1001. for each copy of his paper that was published without the
residence being duly registered.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in reply, stated that an
application had been made to him on the subject ; and his an-
swer to it was, that if the parties involved did not commit the
offence wilfully, and if it appeared that the action
was brought forward to vex or harass them, he thought
it probable that Parliament would afford them re-
lief; but as he did not know the circumstances under which
the information was made, he would not pledge himself ; he
had, however, no objection to assist the Hon. Gentleman in
any way he could to forward his views.
Mr. CURTEIS said that he was determined to press the
question on Government, as the penalty was so very enormous.
Sir JOHN CAMPBELL hoped that when the location of
the printer or publisher was omitted to be registered uninten-
tionally, the Parliament would be willing to afford them relief.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL made same observations
in reply.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Parliament which passed
the Act was to blame, for the clause of the Act invited in-
formers to avail themselves of the penalty that offered.

SUPPLY.

On the SPEAKER putting the question of a Committee of
Supply,
Major BE AUCLERCK said, that seeing the Secretary
for War in his place, he was extremely desirous of knowing
whether the recommendation of the committee of last year had
been acted upon in respect to the recruiting for the army.
Mr. HE RR IE S said there had been a suspension of recruit.
ing till the numbers of the army had reached the point re-
commended by the Committee —that point had now been
reached, and of course the order had been countermanded.

MILITARY SINECURES.
On the motion, that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. HUME said he wished to ask whether any naval or
military sinecures had fallen in since the present Govern-
ment had come into office—( Hear, hear)—and whether they
had been filled up ? He asked the question in consequence of
seeing that Captain Saunders had been appointed to a place
which he thought was considered a sinecure ; and though the
salary was only 401., still, as he thought the question was one
of principle, he was d.sirous of having his question answered.
Sir R. PEEL said some of the offices alluded to had fallen
in ; and in every case the recommendations of the Corn-
mittee of last year bad been most strictly acted upon.
—( Hear.) With respect to the officer named it was neces-
sary that the Duke of Wellington, as Warden of the Cinque
ports, should have assessors well acquainted with nautical affairs,
and that was the reason of Captain Saunders' appointment—
his salary was only 401. a year, which would scarcely pay the
travelling expenses to which he would be put.
Mr. HUME said the Hon. Baronet had not answered the
question—it was, whether any duties were attached to the
office ?
Sir E. KNATCHBULL made an observation which was
not audible in the gallery.
An HON. MEMBER on the Opposition side of the House,
whose name we could not learn, begged leave to bear testimony
to the appointment being necessary. One complaint during the
last session had been that no officer of that description at-
tended, and he was very happy to learn that the office had
been extremely well appointed.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet whe-
ther the situation of Governor had been vacated, and to what
purpose the resources of that income had been appropriated ?
Sir R. PE EL said the appointment was not vacant, and
that the resources for the income of that office required a
great deal of consideration.
_ _ .

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on his Majeitgl . Se n dr e on. a- eveeda
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itobn:gemreydmili
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of the King's answer, he thought it was usual to acknowledge
that the address had been most graciously received.—( No, no.)
11 When he held office before, he was sure that was the practice.
Mr. STANLEY begged to know whether the receipt of an
address from any body or society was a recognition of the
legality of that society ?
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that although a society might
be illegal, it did not debar the members of it from their right
-.61/MMENIA to approach his Majesty by petition. But the receiving of an
address did not imply any opinion of the legality or illegality of
a society.
Mr. SHE IL begged to ask the Right Hon. the Secretary
for the Home Department whether he had any objection to .
lay upon the table of the House copies of the answers of the
Duke of Wellington to the Political Union ; and also to the
Orange addresses which were the subject of this discussion?
They should then be able tc ascertain whether the answer of
the Duke of Wellington was founded upon the title of the
Address, or upon the matter contained in it.—(Hear.) As •
well as he (Mr. Shell) could recollect, the objection was not
to the matter, but to the body from whom it emanated.
It was objected that the Political Union was a secret
society, and therefore not recognised by law, but he be-
lieved (and there were members who could set him right on
the other side) that the Orange societies were ai.o secret as-
sociations. He would again ask whether the Right Hon.
Gentleman would lay copies of those answers upon the table
of the House. .
Mr. GOULBURN had no objection to lay the answers to
'he Oran,ge addresses upon the table.
Mr. SHE IL.—And the answer of the Duke of Wel-

lington ?
Mr. G 0 ISLBURN, as we understood him, objected.
Mr. SHE IL.—Then I shall make a motion on the subject.
Mr. F. SHAW thought there was no necessity to
introduce the question of addresses to the Crown, as the
principle was well understood. Petitions had frequently been
presente4l to that House by members of Orange. and Political
Associations, and it had been laid down, that where petitions
emanated from bodies in their corporate capacity (of these corpo-
rations were not recognised by law), they were -received as the
petition of the individuals by whom they had been signed, and
where sited to be petitions of members of a certain body, the
House offered no opinion on the legality or illegality of that body. .
It had, however, never been denied that Orange Societies
were illegal ; and he thought that it would be much more
proper and convenient to decide the question now at issue-by
means of future addresses and petitions, which there would bra
plenty of opportunity of doing in the course of this session, than
to refer to those already presented and replied to. He would,
however, repeat that the question of illegality, even if it ex-
isted could only apply to the body itself of any society, and
net to intihei.duals of such society. If the addresses alluded
to had been from an Orange lodge, instead of individual
Orangemen, the case would have been very different.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the only reason for
which there had been no decision respecting the ille-
gality of Orange Societies, was from the difficulty
of arriving at the exact nature of them. But it was
well known that more than one judge had stopped wit-
nesses in the course of their examination respecting Orange
societies, end told them that they were not bound to an-
swer the questions put to them.—(Hear, hear.) By the
statute law in Ireland, however, all societies and associations
which have secret tests and declarations were illegal, and no one
he thought, would deny that Orange Societies had their
secret tests and declarations. The members of Orange
Lodges had repeatedly refused to reveal the tests and secrets
cif those societies ; and this had been the case with Ald. Smith.
Upon that occasion he considered that an entire chapter of
the Bible was read, and he had stated the same on that
Committee, when lie was; correctedby an Hon. Member, of the
Committee, Mr. Brownlow,velio declared himself an Orangeman, '
and said that only a passage from that chapter was read.
He (Mr. O'Connell) however; found that the verse that
followed the part that was read was, " That thy feet
may be wet with the blood of thine enemy, and
and that the tongues of the dogs may be red with the same."
This was in the next line, or at least very close to it,
and furnished a very happy stimulant to Christian cha-
rity for those gentlemen who administered the Government
of Ireland, at a time when Orangeism was so encouraged.
When the last appoinment of Chairman was given to a
young gentleman, a nephew of Lord Farnham, who might
be very respectable, but who never held a brief at
best he never saw him hold one—( A laugh)—and when the
Lord Lieutenancy of the county of Meath was given to
the late candidate, the Hon. W. Plunket, who was a declared
Orangeman.—( Hear, hear.) There ought to be some delicacy
observed in these matters. The House, and the people of Ire-
land especially, ought to know precisely what the system of
government was intended to be.—(Loud cheers from the Op-
position.) It could not be denied that it was impossible for a
Catholic to become an Orangeman. Was it right, then, that
the Government should give countenance and protection to
societies from which even such men as Lord Fingal and Lord
Kenmore were excluded on account of their religion ?—(Loud
cheers from the Opposition.) The Ministers of the Crown
had a right to know the full extent of these societies, and no-
thing ought to be kept back, either from them or the public,
and then it would be easy to see whether they were legal con-
federacies or not.—(Cheers.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought the main question after all
was this—did the Crown mean by returning the answer to the
addresses presented by the Orange societies, to give any sanc-
tion to those societies, or to declare an opinion that exclusive
confederacies, whether legal or illegal, bound together by secret
oaths and declarations, were societies that ought to exist ?
(Cheers.) lie had no hesitation in saying, that by a compli-
ance with a mere matter of form, or by the inadvertent use of
an expression, it was not the intention of the Crown or of Mi-
nisters to encourage any exclusive confederacy, or to imply an
opinion that such a confederacy was lawful.—( Cheering.)
Sir HENRY HARDINGE would not touch upon the
question of the legality or illegality of Orange Societies; he
rose to notice what had fallen from the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin, who seemed to accuse the present govern-
ment in Ireland of having made particular appointments on
account of the Orange principles of the parties. He would
ask, in the first place, was the appointment of Sir Edward
Sugden one dictated by the spirit of Orangeism ? In the next
place, was that of the present Attorney- General ?—( Laughter
by Mr. O'Connell, and loud cries of " Hear, hear !" by the
Irish opposition Members.) Did the Hon. Member who so
loudly cheered, think that that appointment was a bad one ?
That Learned Gentleman was employed by the late Whig
government for four years. With regard to the appointment
of Mr. Robinson, he assured the House, that when the vacancy
occurred he, by the direction of the Lord-Lieutenant, re-
quested the legal advisers of the Crown to place the names
of the several applicants in the order in which they stood ac-
cording to their legal merits. On one occasion, his Right
Hon. Friend near him sent him a name of an individual emi-
nent in his profession ; but his ( Sir H. Hardinge's) answer
was, that the names had been arranged according to the merits
of the applicants. It did, however, happen, that the name of
that individual was so high up in the list that the Lord-Lieu-
tenant selected him for the appointment ; but he declared
that, at the moment; neither the Lord-Lieuienant nor him-
self knew that that individual was connected with any
Orange society—( Cries of " Hear, hear," and cheers, )—and he
firmly believed that he was not connected with any of them.
This he knew, that the individual was no relation to Lord
Farnham.--( Cheers from Ministers.) The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had alluded to an appointment of the Hon. Mr.
Plunkett. He could only assure the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman that he was the first person from whom he (Sir
H. Hardinge) had learnt that such an appointment had taken
place. —( Much laughter.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—As to the appointment of the Hon-
ourable Mr. Plunkett he certainly had no other authority
than the newspapers—(Laughter)—and, as to Mr. Robinson,
if that gentleman were not the relation of Lord Farnham, he
was certainly the " moral agent " of that Noble Lord.—( Much
laughter.) It was also notorious that Lord Roden himself was
offered the place, but he declined it.
Mr. LE FRO Y, jun., said that the Hon. and Learned
Member had as much misrepresented the Orange party as he
had the' relationship of Mr. Robinson to Lord Farnham. As
to an oath being taken by an Orangeman, he denied it. The
Orangemen were ever loyal men, and they gave up taking the
oaths the moment they were declared illegal.
Mr. Sergeant O'LOUGHLEN said, in December last a
meeting took place in Dublin of the members of the Orange
Institution of the county and city, at which meeting the Lord
Mayor presided. Some violent speeches were delivered on
that occasion, and among the rest was one by the Rev. Mr.
M'Cree. At the conclusion of his speech he read sonic stanzas
of a poem, of which he was prebebly the author. The two
last lines of which ran thus : ••-•
4C Our hope is on the Lord on h: it,
Then put your trust in God, my boys, and keep your pow-
der dry."
At the end of each stanza, the meeting were described as
raising a shout by way of chorus. Within one short month
of this disgusting exhibition, the Lord Mayor, who so pre-
sided was honoured by the company of the representative of
Majesty in Ireland, at the Mansion-house, attended by all the
officials of his Government. Now, if the Government did
not mean to patronize the Orange faction in Ireland, the
Lord-Lieutenant and his Secretary would not have attended
that dinner. lie put it to the sen-se of that House, whether
any institution at which such sentiments as those he had al-
luded to were uttered, could be tolerated as not being essen-
tially injurious to the peace and prosperity of the country ? and
whether, instead of being countenanced by the Government,
it ought not to be immediately put down ?—( Cheers.)
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said, until this moment be
never heard of any such song having been sung ; and he ap-
pealed to the House, whether, because on the 9th of Decem-
ber, before tither the Lord- Lieuw.nant or himself was ap-
pointed, a person chose to sing a song before the LOrd Mayor,
which they might disapprove of, both he and the Lord-Lieu-
tenant were to be precluded from paying that respect which
was due to the first magistrate of the city of Dublin.—( Cries
of " Oh, oh," from tile Opposition, and cheers from Mi-
nisters.) He repeated that he had never heard of the song ;
but if he had he should not consider that the Lord Mayor was
never to be visited by the Lord-Lieutenant because a person
had been so impudent as to sing it before him.
Mr. Sergeant O'LOUGHLEN said that it was not the
singing, but the sentiment expressed by the song, that was ob-
jectionable ; and as the words had appeared in all the news-
papers, he put it to the House whether the Secretary for Ire-
land ought to be ignorant of it?
Mr. ItONAYNE said that the Right Hon. Secretary had
challenged inquiry into the conduct of the Irish Government.
Ile would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman to look about him,
and witness two of the Privy Councillors ho had made.—
( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) He did not mean to say
that these two individuals were themselves members of Orange
societies ; but they were the recognised friends and supporters