The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-31 00:00:00

to state that there never was any charge more utterly ground-
less than that which has been brought against me by a Mi. I
nisterial newspaper.—( Much laughter.) Newspapers I will
not say having the patronage of the Government, nor will I
say under the protection of the Government, certainly not
the patronage and protection of my Noble Friend —(A laugh)
—but those who have taken him under their protection.--
(Cheers and laughter.) Ido not think, if I were allowed to
give an opinion on the subject, that the attack is a very judi-
cious one ; because one like myself, unconnected with the
Government—never saying one word against the Government
—and I am happy to say that I have not had occasion to do
so—but uniformly defending and supporting it : I therefore
say, I do not think it the most judicious course—because some-
times my advice may have been deemed useless advice—
although
it was ever humble, sincere, and well-meant, and I
gave it at all times conscientiously—that I should be attacked
in the manner I have been by those who are under my No-
ble Friends' protection, or who have taken my Noble Friends
under their protection. I am sure that the attacks did not pro-
ceed from my Noble Friends. lam sure that they disapprove
altogether of such attacks. I know them too well to believe
that they had any bend whatever in it ; for they are men of
sense—but their underlings are those who have made the at-
tacks. One man is disappointed in not getting anything while
I was in otlice. Another is vexed for some similar reason. It
is they who are the authors of these attacks. It is not, I re-
peat, the principals who have done this ; it is the underlings,
instigated by the sort of motive I have described. One of the_
charges made against me, my Lords, is that which, probably,
many of your Lordships would think no charge at all. The
wi,ole blame is to be thrown upon me of the delay which is to
be occasioned by hearing counsel against this Bill. I know
that I have the answer to that charge in the breasts of your
Lordships—( Hear, hear)—but I have also another antidote to
it—l have the antidote in another part of the same paper ; for
the honest and faithful reporters tell what I really did say, but
the writer, not choosi:ig to look at what I did say, but with
the vile purpose of misrepresenting me, had recourse to his
own fancy, and fancied things which I never did say--things
which were never done—though the first page of the same
paper contained a true statement of what was said and what was
done. But people will not always read fair statements before
they make comments on them—they had rather have recourse
to imagination. Perhaps it is more pleasant to utter reproof
than to yield praise, or even than to be silent ; and the reader
may not road the report of the debates, but may turn to the
leading article to get a knowledge of them. Your Lordships
know what I did say. I said, and I argued, perhaps at too
great length, against hearing counsel at all.—( Hear, hear.)
I said that if you heard them on one side, you could not re-
fuse, if required, to hear them on the other. I entered into
calculations on the subject. I told you that it was not done
in the Irish 405. freeholders' case—all my arguments were
directed against hearing counsel at all. I said—now let it be
distinctly understood what I say—let it not be misunderstood
that lam decidedly against hearing counsel—l resist, I op-
pose it altogether ; but I see a great number of your Lord-
ships, and in fact the majority, to be in favour of -hearing
counsel, and therefore I shall be glad if I can make any pro-
posal that will meet the view of the Noble Duke. That is
what these men think deserving of censure. As they advise
me in the conduct of a case of an action at law, they would
advise the Noble Duke opposite in the conduct of an action of
another sort—( A laugh)—in the conduct of a battle ; but I
prefer, as he would prefer, to fight my own battle in my own
way. My Lords, I consider that this Bill is my own battle.
I was the author of the Commission—l originated the Bill in
this House—l shall fight as good a battle as I can in favour
of the Bill, and with great submission to them—(A laugh)—
I will not make an exception to that rule of the practice of
our Courts, which declares that where you have counsel and
leaders, if the leadership be worth having, you shall be
guided in the conduct of the cause by your own judgment,
and by your leader's judgment, but not by the wishes of your
client. I shall do so here, and my client will thank me in a
few days for pursuing that course. I was not to lose the battle
at once, as these persons advise—for such really is their ad-
vice—" Oh, lose it, to show your pluck."—(A laugh.) That
is what they advise. Why not divide and stand alone? My
Lords, that was not my plan.—(Hear, hear.) My plan was
to get as good a bargain as I could, and to tell your Lordships
the truth, I think that I did make a good bargain.—( Hear.)
I was ready to consent to hear two counsel in order to get rid
of the proposition of hearing counsel for every borough that
chose to ask it.—( Viscount Strangford intimated that it was
not his proposition.) I see what my Noble Friend means—he
does not want such long arguments of counsel, he shrinks
from the idea of it—animus neminisse fugit. I only mean
to state this, that I did my best to avoid the consequences of
the proposition then made. I shall not say more, than that I
feel it necessary to make this statement of what really did oc-
cur ; for otherwise it would be represented out of doors that
any long speech of counsel that may take place will be the
consequence of my conduct, when in fact my plan was to avoid
this as much as possible. I hope that the event will prove
that I made an admirable compromise.—( Hear.) It is repre-
sented that the only object of hearing counsel is to delay the
Bill. My Lords, there is no wish for delay.—( Hear,
hear, :hear.) I say, that, first upon the authority of
the positive assertion of the Noble Duke, and next, because no
man could obtain delay in the progress of the Bill ; for if I am
ready, as I am, to sit here from morning till night up to
next Christmas to hear counsel on the Bill, there can be no
hope of delaying it by that means.—(Hear. )
Lord LYNDHURST moved that a copy of the instructions
to the Boundary Commissioners be laid upon the table.
The Earl of VE RUL AM presented a petition from St.
Alban's against the Corporation Reform Bill.
Lord STR ANG FORD presented a petition from Worces-
ter to the same effect.
Lord LYNDHURST presented petitions to the same ef-
fect from Bridgewater and Wells.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition to the
same effect from East Retford.

The Marquis of CLANRIC A RDE gave notice that he
should postpone the consideration of the Roman 'Catholic
Marriage Bill until Tuesday next.
On the motion for the Order of the Day to hear the Counsel
against the Bill,
The Marquis of L A NSDO WNE hoped that nothing would
ever induce the House to hear counsel on the principle of
this or any other Bill. If their Lordships should once agree
to do that, they would be laying down a most inconvenient,
and indeed a most dangerous precedent, and one on which, if
he had divided alone, he would have taken the sense of the

House before agreeing to it.—( Hear, hear.) He concurred
with his Noble and Learned Friend ( Lord Brougham) in the
wish to limit the hearing of counsel as much as possible. Of
course they could not shut out the consideration of the prin_
ciple of the Bill altogether; but the counsel were to be heard
on the details, and on the details should have the opportunity
of stating the degree in which the corporations they appeared
for thought their rights and privileges would be affected.—
( Hear, hear.) In that view he found their Lordships con-
curred.—( Hear,'hear.) Ile really thought it most material,
not with a view to this case alone, but with a view to the
order of the proceedings of their Lordships' House, not to let
it go forth that their Lordships would call counsel to the bar
to argue on the principle of a Bill, which principle it was
their duty and their right to discuss, determine, and resolve for
themselves.

The Earl of FALMOUTH said that the Noble Marquis
had misunderstood what he meant. He meant that counsel
were not to be precluded from entering into observations on
the principle of the Bill.
The Earl of MANSFIELD understood the intention of

their Lordships to be to hear the arguments of counsel upon
the principle of the Bill—not upon the principle of the Bill as
a legislative measure, but upon the principle of the Bill as it
would affect those towns, who had petitioned against it ; and
further, he understood that, besides being heard on the prin-
ciple, counsel should be at liberty to be heard on the conduct
of the Commissioners in procuring the evidence on which the
Bill was founded. With regard to the details of the Bill, he
certainly did not apprehend that it was the intention of the
House to preclude corporate towns from presenting petitions
claiming to be heard on those parts of the Bill which particu-
larly affected their interests. The House bad made no order
upon the subject, but he certainly understood that it was open
to counsel to be heard on those points of detail as well as upon
the general principle. He merely mentioned this that there
might be no misunderstanding.
The Marquis of C L A NRIC A RDE did not think that they

had even yet come to a proper understanding upon the point
because, if the Noble Earl's view were the correct one, it
would appear that the two speeches, of which the Noble and
Learned Lord spoke the other evening, were not the only two
speeches that the House would have to listen to. In that case
the arrangement was not so good as it was supposed to be.
Lord BROUG H A M must say that he really did not under-
stand the Noble Marquis.—( Laughter and cheers.) Did the
Noble Marquis mean to say that he would have stood the other
night against t:.e majority of 70 or 80 who were ranged on the
opposite side of the House, and who were determined not to
be satisfied unless counsel were heard ? It appeared that the
Noble Marquis was one of those who, out of doors, attributed
to him ( Lord Brougham) a desire to delay the progress of tte
Bill.—(Laughter and cheers.) But let the Noble Marquis
take his (Lord Brougham's) place, and then ask himself
whether, as a sincere advocate of the Bill, he would not have
pursued the same course ?
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was not one of those
who, out of doors, took notice of the conduct of the Noble and
Learned Lord ; but he claimed his privilege of appearing in
that House, and finding fault with a course of proceeding
which he thought neither convenient nor proper to be adopted.
He should have stated his objections to it the other evening,
and more than once rose for the purpose of doing so, but was
prevented by the three or four times repeated speeches of the
Noble and Learned Lord. He appealed to the common sense
and common understanding of their Lordships, to say whether
the opinion expressed by the Noble and Learned Lord, as to
the understanding come to the other evening, was not widely
different from that expressed by the Noble Earl (Mansfield)
who spoke from the opposite side of the House. Before they
took the course proposed of hearing Counsel at the Bar, he
wished to know whether it were possible to reconcile such a
course with justice, common sense, or precedent; it was true
they had been told of precedents, but he was at a loss to find
one exactly in point. It was obviously necessary, before
Counsel were called to the Bar, that an exact understanding
should be entered into as to the points to which their argument
should be limited, if indeed it were to be limited at all. No
ordi rof any kind had been made upon the subject. The mo-
tion, as he understood it, was, that all those who had peti-
tioned. against the Bill should be heard by Pognael, and that the
Counsel callec: should be at liberty to argue the case of all.
Lord ELLENB 0 R 0 L:-:_:\vhat I propose is, that an
C. order shall be made, directing that all who nay, ot itioned to
be heard shall be allowed to be heard, in order to enable tne
Counsel to appear at the Bar. If no such order be made,
they cannot appear at all.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE knew that there were

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