The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-17 00:00:00

was alpenalty. He contended that Lit stood upon: other
grounds; and in the view:taken of it by the Right Hon.
Baronet, he did not touch on its merits.—( Hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet did not touch much on the general
policy of the measure ; but he seemed to say that the Govern-
ment intended to deprive the freemen of the rights they now
enjoyed; and they wished to do this by a side wind.—(Loud
cheers.) He ( Mr. Thomson) would say to those who main-
tained this argument, that. if this proposition were carried they
would be establishing a new right of voting, which had hitherto
been unknown.—( Cheers, and cries of " No, no I") He said
unknown, because the freemen voted under corporate rights ;
and (as we understood the Right Hon. Gentleman) the rights
created under this Bill were essentially different, and the free-
men were inconsistent with them. They proposed to treat
new corporations, and to give corporate privileges to other
classes than those who now held them—to select those best
able to exercise these rights, and to withhold the suffrage from
those who did not appear fit to be entrusted with it. They
proposed to establish a new class of rights in the country—a
corporate right different from the ordinary corporate rip ht
(The Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to make some further
observations which were inaudible in the gallery.)
Lord F. EGERTON agreed with his Right Hon. Friend
in thinking that the Noble Lord had resorted to sophistries
unworthy of the leader of a great party in that House. With
regard to the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman who
had just addressed the House, that it would be absurd to give
the power of electing Members of Parliament to those who
were excluded from a voice in the election of corporate officers,
he (Lord F. Egerton) would only say that in many in-
stances freemen had exercised the former right when they
had not exercised the latter. He had not been in the
House when the Reform Bill was passing, but he cer-
tainly entertained a better opinion of the Honourable Gen-
tleman opposite than the Right Honourable Baronet the
Member for Tamworth appeared to entertain, when he pro-
phesied they would so soon violate the understanding with
regard to the finality of that Bill. The Noble Lord (Althorp)
who then led that House said " Thus far shall we go but no
further," and he (Lord F. Egerton) little expected to see a
member of the same Government take the earliest opportu-
nity of endeavouring to defeat by a side wind that which, at
the passing of the Reform Bill, they induced the House to
believe was intended to be perpetual.—( Cheers.) He could
not conceive a greater violation of consistency than was in-
stanced in such a proceeding.
Mr. WARD observed that the monotony of the argument
resorted to on the other side of the House was exceedingly
singular. He regretted the necessity for interfering with the
rights of any class of freemen, but he was afraid that the
necessity did exist for doing so in the present case. Let Hon.
Members refer to the report on the Corporations of Ipswich,
of Norwich, of Cambridge and others, which he had not. time
to enumerate, and they would find there the most convincing
arguments to induce them to discontinue the use of the elective
franchise to a certain class of freemen, who, it was proved, had
suffered gross demoralization through its exercise.—( Oh, oh.)
He would ask whether Hon. Members had read the reports he
referred to, and, if so, whether they did not consider this bear-
ing ?—(No.) " But I do," continued the Hon. Member.
He maintained that those Reports exhibited a most complete
system of corruption and demoralization. But that was not
the only argument. They were not to take away their fran-
chises without giving something in exchaege.—( Loud cries of
" Question," during which the Hon. Member in vain endea-
voured to be heard.) He maintained that expediency was the
only thing they had to do with. It was upon that principle
that the forty-shilling freeholders of Ireland had been disfran-
chised by the Emancipation Act.
Mr. H. HUGHES rose amidst violent expressions of im-
patience. We understood him to refer, first, to the case of
Ipswich, in which he maintained that, so far from a gross
system of demoralization having existed, only six cases of
corruption of freemen had been proved before the late Com-
mittee.—( Loud and increasing sounds of impatience.) The
inconsistency of Hon. Members opposite was not confined to
isolated instances. Many of those Hon. Gentlemen came into
the House upon their reputation for liberal opinions, and their
avowals in favour of universal suffrage ; yet those were the
very gentlemen who now came forward to disfranchise a
large part of the constituency which already existed.—
( Cheers, and loud cries of " Oh, oh.") He would now
refer to the title of the Bill. What was it but " for the
better regulation of municipal corporations ;" that said not a
word of the robbery of franchise.—(" Oh, oh," and tremen-
dous confusion.) Then let them look at the preamble, it
only provided for the local government of the corporations ;
nothing was said in that about the wholesale annihilation of
freemen's rights, which, in the city of Oxford, for instance,
would reduce one-half of the freemen constituency.—("Ques-
tion, question," " Oh, oh," and ironical cheering.)
Mr. POULTER rose, but was assailed with impetuous
shouts of " Oh, oh," " Question, question," &c. The Hon.
Member, who held a paper in his hand, in vain endeavoured,
by gesticulation and appeal to the Hon. Members in his im-
mediate neighbourhood, to obtain a hearing. The most con-
fused sounds, mysteriously blended, issued from all corners of
the House. One Hon. Member near the bar repeatedly
called out " Read" in an exceedingly bass and hoarse sound,
not tone, of voice. At repeated intervals a sort of drone-
like humming, having almost the sound of a distant hand-
organ or bagpipes, issued from the back benches—coughing,
sneezing, and ingeniously-extended yawning, blended with
the other sounds, produced a tout-ensemble which we have
never heard excelled in this House. This scene lasted abou

ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, and terminated in hearty
cheering as the Hon. Member resumed his seat.
Mr. HARDY rose. The united voices of the House,

though somewhat exerted by prolonged exertion, were raised
against him. The same sounds we have just described were
renewed, with some others which we should be at a loss to
describe. After some minutes of passive resistance the Hon,
Member sat down, and order was obtained.
The numbers were—
For the Amendment
Against it 262
_ _

Majority against the Amendment 2B
The Committee then divided—
For the original clause
For the amendment 234
Majority for the original clause 2B

The Hon. J. G. PONSONBY then moved, pursuant to
notice, as a proviso, that the children of all freemen born be-
fore the sth of June, 1835, and also all apprentices in boroughs,
shall have and enjoy all the rights and privileges to which they
would have been entitled but for this Bill, excepting the right
to vote for Members of Parliament. The few observations of
the Hon. Member in support of his motion, were inaudible in
the gallery.
Lord J. RUSSELL said a few words, but in too low a tone
of voice to reach the gallery. The Noble Lord was under-
stood to oppose the amendment, on the same grounds as he
had opposed the previous amendment of Mr. Praed.
Mr. PHILIP HOWARD supported the amendment. He
thought that apprentices in boroughs had a clear vested right
in the enjoyment of those privileges which their forefathers had
possessed, and that the House ought not to disfranchise them.
He was of opinion also that the amendment ought to be adopted
upon that principle of uniformity which ought to be dear to
every Reformer.

Cord SA NDON looked upon the clause in the Bill to which
these amendments referred as an anomaly. It was not con-
sistent with either the principle or general provisions of the
Bill ; and when, therefore, the Noble Lord (Lord John Rus-
sell) talked of not going out of his way to favour the class of
freemen, in order to be true to his own doctrine he ought to
agree to the amendment proposed, the effect of which would
be, to confine the measure strictly within its own limits, in-
stead of permitting a departure from its objects, in an attack
upon the rights of the freemen. The Noble Lord, by this par-
ticular provision of his Bill, went out of his way to make an
alteration in the Reform Bill. This had been so fully argued,
that he need not again go over the ground. The class of ap-
prentices had inchoate rights which, he contended, that House
was bound to respect and uphold ; and he sincerely hoped that
his Noble Friend, although he had negatived the previous
amendment of the Hon. Member for Yarmouth, would accede
to the alteration proposed by one of his own supporters.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL maintained that the interference
with the privileges of freemen referred to by his Noble Friend
who had just sat down, was strictly in accordance with the
principle of the Municipal Reform Bill. _ The clause in ques-

tion was necessary to secure the due working of that measure,
and it could not therefore be said with justice, that its inser-
tion was a departure from the principle of it.
Mr. AGLIONBY could not allow his Hon. Friends on
that side of the House, nor the Noble Lord on the other

( Lord Sandon) to stand alone before the country as cham-
pions of freemen's rights and privileges. Let them but show
him that the class to whom this clause referred possessed any
just rights, any rights that they had exercised for the benefit
of the people, for whom alone such rights were conferred, and
he for one would be quite as ready to step forward in their
defence as either of his Hon. Friends or the Noble Lord.—
( Hear, hear.) They had utterly failed, however, in making
out any such case. They had not pointed out one right en-
joyed by the freemen in the exercise of which it could be said
the public benefit had been consulted. He was afraid that his
name might not appear in that black and red list which he
saw in the hands of Hon. Gentlemen, and which he presumed
was for publication to-morrow morning. He thought there
would be a publication—he had seen symptoms of separation
for something of the kind; and fearing that his name might
not be in the black list, he came forward to claim his share
of the unpopularity of the vote just given with his Majesty's
Government. He honoured the Government for their whole
conduct with reference to the Bill. He would not, therefore,
leave them to be held up by their opponents to the whole
country as the enemies of poor men's privileges, which he
well knew to be the object of the parties whom he had ob-
served so busy with the red and black list.—(Cheers.) The
Hon. Gentleman had proceeded to read from a paper which
appeared to be one of the lists be had adverted to, the follow-
ing- passage :—" The freemen of England and Wales are to be
robbed of their rights—( Cheers from the Opposition benches)
—by a majority of the Scotch and Irish Members."—(Re-
nerved cheers from the Opposition.) Now, he denied that
there was a majority of Scotch and Irish Members of that
House, but so long as Scotland and Ireland sent Members
prepared to advocate such a measure as the present, he cared
not what their numbers might be. He had given the House
a specimen of the efforts making to bring his Majesty's Govern-
ment, and the supporters of this measure into disgrace with
the country.—( Hear, hear.) He had not, however, read all
the incitements put forth upon the occasion. He would not
state from what part of the country the following came, further
than that it was where freemen prevailed ; but it was of a piece
with what he had already read. The Hon. Gentleman read as
follows :—" Brother freemen ! The real object of this is to de-
prive us of our rights, and assist the Government to carry those
cla.use,, in the Corporation Reform Bill, by which our children
are tu be rubbed of their birthrights,"—(Cheerb.) He was ,
not surprised that these sentiments should meet with the ap-
plause of the beaches opposite ; but be "should feel obliged to
i