The Sun.
London, England, 1835-06-23 00:00:00

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Rate. Those gentlemen who contended that the town councils • being charged with perjury in such a hum-drum manner !
would have a dangerous power were entirely in error.—( Hear.) (Great laughter.) If there were even reason in it, it would
Nothing would be more dangerous than that they should have be worthy of notice. He cautioned them against this oath, as
the power of superseding the enactments of the law by relieving if they had not come there after maturely deliberating upon it.
any party from the payment of the rate, but they had not Did he presume to think that he (Mr. O'C.) had not as awful a
that power. As the Bill now stood the rate must be levied sense of eternal responsibility as the Hon. Bart. himself ? But
upon all descriptions of property now liable to county rate, the charge more particularly belongs to the Church to which
or what amounted to the same thing, it must be taken out of the Hon. Baronet, belongs, and her only glory, that she at
the Poor Rate. He was afraid that when the Noble Lord came length shook off the stain and taint, the Hon. Baronet
to consider the 79th Clause, he would find great difficulty cannot participate in, for he opposed it to the last. He would
In bringing its provisions into operation ; but he would then come to the oath itself, and he hoped that the House
not mix up the observations he intended to offer upon that clause would allow him to tell them what interpretation he put
with the 6th clause. If he understood the Bill, the borough rate upon it. If he were wrong, let some Honourable Member
must be taken out of the poor rate. Under these circumstances, move that he be expelled. He challenged the Hon. Bart. to
finding that the Bill had adopted the principle for which he meet him foot to foot, and shew that he was wrong in the in-
( Sir R. Peel) had contended he should not seek to disturb its terpretation which he put upon this oath. There were
operation by any new arrangement.—( Hear.) three clauses in the oath relating to this matter. The Ho-
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that it would be better nourable Baronet contended that civil and ecclesiastical
to reserve the discussion upon this point until the 79th property was included in the first clause ; he (Mr. O'C.)
clause came under the consideration of the House.—(Hear, admitted this, and that he was bound to defend both equany,
and cheering.), Those who had to pay Borough rate, The Hon. Gentleman called the Belgian a Catholic Gcsvern-
would merely have to pay an additional sum, but that would ment, but it was not, for the King was a Protestant, and every
not come in the shape of a separate rate. member of the Government was a Protestant. So in this
After a few words from Sir R. PEEL, country, though every member of the Government but three
Mr. POULE TT THOMP S ON thought the principle might be Catholics, yet three must be Protestants, and that made
could be much more advantageously discussed when the 79th it a Protestant Government. The next clause was—" I will
clause was brought forward. not use any privilege." Was his right of voting, as a Member
By an Act passed in 1831, all the rate-payers, without dis- of this House, meant by this ? They made Protestant Dis-
tinction had not only a right to vote, but were qualified for senters swear thus " I will never exercise"--What T,
any office. That act had produced infinitely more content privilege ? No, but—" I will never exercise assy powes, au-
and satisfaction in Salford that in Manchester. He knew that thority, or influence that I may obtain to ini.sare or weaken the
it caused great dissatisfaction in the latter town, but in Salford Protestant Church." The words then Pere—" Power, autho-
there were no heart-burnings,__ and affairs were carried on just rity or influence." But they did rslst make Catholics swear
as well if not better than in Manchester. that, and yet the Protestant Dissenters' Oath was - made
After a few words from Mr. YOUNG, the purport of before theirs. Did privilege mean power or authority? If
which we couli not catch. it did why did they not use the words ?—('dear, hear, hear.)
Mr. BR OTH ERTO N said, with respect to the satisfaction He had duties a?, a Member of Pssiiiament, and he had
the Manchester Police Act had given, he thought when he statad the privileges of franking and freedom from arrest; but
that at the time the Aet was solicited in the town of Manchester he had a eight to legislate, Said a duty to legislate pro-
a public meeting was held, and a petition was signed, by a perly, and therefore he den!ied that the word privilege re-
great portion of the inhabitants, against the Bill—( Hear, lated to either rights or duties. He came then to the
hear, hear)—and he recollected that the expence was between words—" weaken or disturb the Protestant religion."
40,0001. He had the honour of waiting upon the Right Hon. He watched the Hot. Baronet when he did not appear
Baronet, and he stated it was impossible to prevent the wishes of to watch him, to sea if he would have the resolution to assert
the people from being complied with. The Bill was modified that money was t'ne Protestant religion ; for he had heard him
from what it was at first ; but in the Bill so modified, out of (Mr. O'C.) say before, that revenues and religion were two
140,000 inhabitants, there were in the first year only 2,400 distinct things; that religion was every thing sacred and
electors ; and at this moment they did not exceed 3,050. In a solemn, and revenue was but the mammon of this world.
year or two after an application was made for a Bill for If privilege meant his duty as a Member of Parlia-
Salford, and to avoid the heartburnings and contentions kept ment, they differed on the word religion, and more es-
up in Manchester it was proposed that every rate-payer should pecially in the given case. The charge of perjury was the
have a vote. They had acted on that principle, and had given cry of the defeated at elections, who used it in their paltry
universal satisfaction. Out of the 50,000 inhabitants there were insults and accusations for their own despicable purposes.
2,000 electors under a 101. franchise, and he did not believe The given case was the resolution that after providing for the
that more than that number paid the borough rates. He must spiritual wants of Ireland, the surplus should be applicable to the
confess that he agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet regard- moral and religious instruction of the people. But it went further.
ing the payment of rates. He, however, would not defend it, but when it came on he
Mr. BAINES, in corroboration of what had fallen from would discuss it, and vote for it, if his conscience led him
the Hon. Member for Salford, would only remark that in to do so.—( Hear, hear.) He was not embarrassed by that
Leeds there were as many as eight or ten townships, every one motion, but he was embarrassed by that he had voted for, and
of which had a poor's rate' of its own. He did not see how he meant to vote for it again. The resolution was for
they could amalgamate the two rates at all. He wished the appropriating the surplus revenue, after providing for it
Noble Lord to have that view of the case before him, when the spiritual wants of the people. He called that religion, for
he was considering the subject. provided instruction for the people, to give them a capa-
Mr. ESTCOURT wished to know whether it would not city to understand and to receive religion. He put his
be better to state in the proviso distinctly that the clause only interpretation upon the oath upon that distinction between reli-
contemplated those premises within the borough. gion and property. Property was taken from the Catholic reli-
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that was provided for in an gion in Ireland, but was it disturbed? Look at the last census.
after clause. You have 800,000 Protestants of every denomina-
The SPEAKER having called upon Mr. S. Crawford, tion, and 6,400,000 Roman Catholics, with a revenue
Upon that part of the clause which deprives those re- of two milllions per annum. Have you not Protes-
ceiving parochial relief or other alms, it was proposed that all tact Dissenters in Ireland, and would the Honourable
persons receiving any relief from the Corporation, or parochial Baronet say (though he said many things offensive of them)
funds should not be entitled to vote. that they had no religion ? They had no revenues, and if he ex-
I (Mr. HOGG proposed to limit the disqualification to those eluded them by the forms of their oath they ought to exclude him.
receiving parochial relief. If the House put a different interpretation upon the oath than
Sir M. W. RIDLEY then rose and was left speaking. he had given, he was willing to go out of the House, and to re-
main out as he had done before, until the question was settled.
In his opinion, any man who took an unjust oath was bound to
break it, if he believed that he was committing perjury by
taking it. He was sorry to trespass thus long upon the House,
but he put it to every Honourable Member who heard
him what course he would have pursued if he had been charged
with perjury.—( Cheers.) He thought the time was come
for parties to give up calumny in that House who bad lost
their political ascendancy.—( Cheers.)
The subject then dropped.
A Message from the Lords brought up several Private Bills. •
CORPORATION REFORM.
Mr. E STCOURT wished to ask the Noble Lord at the
head of the Home Department whether it was his intention by
the Corporation Reform Bill, to apply the funds of Corporations
generally, or to borough purposes ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was not the intention of the
Government to apply the funds to borough purposes.
Mr. E STCOURT gave notice that when the House came to •
the 79th clause he should move that its consideration should
be suspended until the other clauses were disposed of.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL begged to ask the Noble Lord
opposite, the Secretary at War, a question, and if any pro-
mise were made, he hoped it would be better kept than that
formerly made. The Hon. Baronet then addressed a few ob..
servations across the table to Lord Howick, in so very low a
tone of voice, that not a word was audible in the gallery.
Lord HOWICK said that steps would be immediately taken
to remedy the evil so far as regarded the metropolis, but he
could not make that answer without observing upon the remark
of the Hon. Baronet relative to promises being better kept.
Last year he (Lord Howick), when Under Secretary at the
Home Office, had introduced three clauses into a Bill upon this
subject ; and had Lord Melbourne's administration remained
in office, the thing would have been done last year. It had not.
been done, not because Lord Melbourne's administration hadi
broken its promise, but for reasons which the Hon. Baronet
was better acquainted with than him.—(Cheers.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL and Lord Howicx severally explained.
Sir W. RAE moved the Order of the Day for resuming
the adjourned debate upon the Church of Scotland.---( Oh I)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL suggested that the Hon. Baronet
would postpone the discussion to a future opportunity.
Sir W. RAE then moved that the debate be adjourned. to
Wednesday se'nnight.
On the motion of Mr. FIELDEN, a New Writ was 'ordered
fir Oldham, in place of William Cobbett, Esq. cls.„,nased.
Sir R. PEEL said, perhaps, before going ir
:so business, the
Noble Lord (Morpeth) would have no obi'setion to inform the
House the course lie intended to take w:Aliregard to the Irish
Tithe Bill. Did he intend to mow! any resolution upon which
to found the Bill ?
Lord MORPETH sair!. he would to-morrow be prepared
and give the House notice upon it.
to answer the questio-2,,
Sir R. PEET,—As the House was very full, it might be
as well to ;now how it was intended the Corporation Bill
wa,s. to,'oe proceeded in to-morrow.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member for the Tower
Hamlets (Mr. Clay) had a motion for to-morrow on the subject
of the Corn Laws, which, if brought on, was likely to occupy the
whole evening. He (Lord J. Russell) would to-morrow ask
the Hon. Gentleman, when he was in his place, to post-
pone the motion in order to proceed with the Bill.
Mr. HUME said he could answer that the Hon. Mem:oer
would give way for the Corporation Bill, but for nothing else.
—( Cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then would press the Corpora-
tion Bill to-morrow. On Wednesday the Noble. Lord (Ma-
hon) had a motion upon the orders in Council—if be would
pOstpone it, then they would proceed with. the Corporation
Bill on that night also.
Lord M &HON said he considered tho question of so muchs
importance, and pressed so much, that fee must decline giving
way for any thing.
Mr. PR AE D had also what he considered a very important
motion relative to the affairs of India; he trusted the Noble
Lord would give him an opportunity of bringing it forward.
Although there were no representatives for India in that
House, he did not wish to make the question a party one.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, after a few observations, fixed
Monday week.
Petitions were then presented in favour of the Municipal
Corporation BiP, by the Attorney-General, Lord Morpeth,
and Mr. \VW:lams.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY rose to present a petition in favour
of Corporate Reform, from a great majority of the burgesses
of Sudbury.
Sir R. PEEL wished distinctly to understand from the
Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) whether, in cases
where there had been specific appropriations of property to
certain purposes, such appropriation was to be respected ; as,
if such was intended, it would be necessary to arrange some
details in the Bill for protecting suck interests ?
-- - Sir J. CAMPBELL said that when existing Corporations
HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUIVII 22. held property, as trustees, for certain purposes, and were not
The SPEAKER took the chair at three o'clock. solely and beneficially interested, the property would not be
Mr. Crafer from the Treasury presented papers, but it was applicable to the purposes of the Bill, but would be adminis-
impossible to hear what the nature of them was. tered according to the same trusts.
Mr. A. SPI ERS brought up the Report of the Committee Sir ROBERT PEEL said that there were cases where
on the Paisley Water Works Bill. there was a beneficial interest the inhabitants held in lands in
Mr. TOOKE brought up the Report of the Truro Improve- the neighbourhood of a town, and where birth gave freedom to
ment Bill. the borough, and where seven years' apprenticeship gave a
Mr. POTTER was not quite sure that many of the bills title. To persons not of age, and persons whose terms of ap-
called improvement bills were actually of that character. He prenticeship were unexpired, there were inchoate rights, of
hoped this one deserved it. which they should not be deprived. Many of these rights to
land had been conferred by recent Acts of Parliament. Did
Mr. WEYMOUTH brought up the Reports of the Committees
the Noble Lord mean to interfere in these matte ?
upon the Bolley Road Bill and the Hinckley and Hasborough Lord J. RUSSELL was not prepared to answerrs the ques-
Road Bill. and thought the subject would be much more ad
tion,. . van.
Upon the motion of Mr. Alderman Woon, the Committee tageously discussed in Committee.
upon the London Small Debts Bill obtained leave till Monday On the order of the day being moved,
the 6th of July, to make their Report. Mr. C. PELHAM expressed his fear that the. 'Oust pro-
CORPORATION REFORM.
perty in the hands of Corporations would be 'placed in jeo-
Mr. O'CONNELL—was never more unwilling to tres- pardy unless fresh provisions were introduced into the Bill.
pass upon the House than at that moment, nor would he do so if Mr. PR AED said, that if ever the Psouse were called upon
he could possibly avoid it consistent with his sense of duty. The to express its opinion before the Speaker left the Chair for
grossest charges had been made against him by the Hon. the House to go into Committee, it was on this occasion. The
Baronet, and he had condescended to tell them that he did Hon. Gentleman then read a motion, to the effect that all
so with much pain.—( Hear, hear, and cheering.) That rights and privileges at present enjoyed, whether inchoate or
was no very great consolation to those upon whom complete, by members of existing Corporations, should be se-
he inflicted such deep injury. It was the language of perse- cured to their present possessors and their deas.enaanss._( A
cutors of every state and century—they all spoke of the pain laugh from the Ministerial side.) He tv-.,s prepared to find
they felt.—( Laughter.) No Familiar of the Inquisition ever something like a titter from that co-arter. The Hon and
burnt a Protestant without declaring that he did so Learned Member then proceede,:, tz; say that he wished to
.. au eteeeding pain.—( Laughter) When Calvin roasted have nothing done inconsis..
Servetus at a slow fire, he said he did so with the greatest pain. missioners on Municio-.. Corporations.
(Renewed laughter)—but the pain of the bigot was no sented to his Majes' 1
consolation to the victim of his cruelty—( Hear, hear)—and sion it was sa;-1 that"y
cruelty consists as much in foul calumny as in actual the same,
corporeal suffering. What right had the Hon. Baronet to car
arraign him ? Did he ( Sir IL Inglis) ever suffer in his person, in.
his property,. in his rights, or in his privileges, I--
intervention of an oath—why should he pre- ''y ent with the reports of the Coin-
% ln an address pre-
as the commencement of the present sea-
, a measure of a comprehensive nature, in
spirit as that which conceived the Reform Bill, and
..ed through the Bill for the abolition of slavery in the co-
lonies, would be introduced into Parliament on the subject of
the Corporate Reform. He wished to see this profession
, -fume to ar- realised. Reform in the abuses and providing for good local.
reign him after lie had been fat, sleek.. •
enti. contented with government should be its objects, but not confiscation of the
an oath ?—( Laughter. ) The He-
-se.7-able Baronet charged rights and privileges of the poor. The Hon. Gentleroao
him with perjury in '!. 1.011141,n tone and drawling manner, then cited the case of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where the poor
worse bey half t 4411 On subject itself. Oh, the misery of burgess would by this measure be deprived of the enjoy-

MARKET INTELLIGENCE.

(From the New London Price Currant of this night. )
SUGAR.-The demand for West India Muscovadoes was
general and extensive last week ; the purchases were estimated
at 3,200 hhds. and trs., which large sales, with the few arrivals
and a continuance of easterly winds, advanced the prices of
the market 6d. to Is. per cwt., and reduced the stocks to so
small a compass, that the Sugars left on sale were very few and
very inferior in quality. The stock of West India is now
15,240 hhds. and trs., being 9,343 less than last year. The
stock of Mauritius 96,646 bags, being 7,548 less than last
year. The delivery of West India 2,919 hhds. and trs., being
227 less than last year. The delivery of Mauritius 6,858
bags, being 2,454 more than the corresponding week
of 1834. The estimated purchases, this day, are, 900
hogsheads and tierces, sold firmly at the advance we
have stated. In Refined there was little alteration last week;
the supply was still inadequate to the consumption, and the
Refiners were in consequence still asking higher prices, 755. 6d.
and 765. the long price and 355. the short one. The Refiners
are asking higher prices this afternoon, on account of the con-
tinuance of the scarcity of goods ; 355. 6d. has been paid for
the short price, which is again 6d. higher; the long price 765.
The grocers appear inclined to buy more freely for the home
consumption this afternoon.
MAURITIUS.-The public sale on Friday, 7,718 bags Mauri-
tius, sold 6d. to Is. per cwt. higher ; the rise is in the same
proportion as West India, brown 495. 6d. to 525. 6d., yellow
535. to 61s.
EAST INDIA.-The sales of East India Sugar last week
were above 8,000 bags, generally 6d. higher.
By public sale this day 223 bags Bengal Sugar, the quantity
was small, yet the prices were rather lower and rather impor-
tant, showing that some of the large purchases lately made
were on the speculation that the equalization of the duties
would take this Session of Parliament, but to which we never
gave the least countenance, as our information led us to the
opposite conclusion, which is correct ; it will be after this
year a gradual reduction, but there is no doubt of its ultimate
operation being perfect equalization with the duty on West
India Sugars.
FOREIGN.-The request for Foreign Sugar continued last
week at the advance of Is. per cwt. ; yellow Havannah 295. 6d.
to 305., white 355. ; mid. to fine brown Bahia 255. to 275. 6d.
By private contract it is stated 500 chests ord. yellow Havannah
sold this afternoon at 30s. Average Price of Sugar 11. 10s.
104 d. per cwt.
COFFEE.-The descriptions of East India Coffee subject to
the reduction of the duty advanced 5,. per cwt., with the excep .
tion of Ceylon, which sold extenstvely at 625. and 635., the
former prices ; the others sold at the rise we have stated.
There were extensive of Brazil Coffee last week, ord. mixed
51s. to 545., fine ord. 555. to 565. The British Plantation de-
scriptions rather advanced last week, particularly the good and
fine ord. descriptions, triage Jamaica 91s. 6d., fine ord. brown
98s. There has been much confusion in the Coffee Market since
the declaration of the Ministers respecting the duty has trP;,,s..
pired ; Ceylon has advanced 6s. to Bs. per cwt., goe',l quality
from 635. rose to 705., and other parcels the preduct of British
India in the same proportion ; but there is rnuch confusion and
uncertainty about the measure, particularly as to when it
will take effect-as to whether a certificate of growth will
be required-and what Coffee is to be considered as from Bri-
tish India, whether being shipped from thence, from Singa-
pore, &c., will be considered sufficient. Several deputations
on these subjects will wait upon the Ministers to get explana-
tions on these points.
The most reasonable way of settling this question appears to
be, all Coffee formerlyipaying the 9d. per lb. duty to be reduced
to 6d. per lb., and on a certain long removed day not to be
admitted to this privilege, unless the certificate of British
growth in India be produced at the Custom House the same
way as with West India and Mauritius produce.
The public sale of Jamaica this afternoon, though small in
quantity, was very important, being the first sale since the
announcement respecting the equalization of East India with
the West India Coffee duty ; the whole 31 casks wont off 4s.
to ss. per cwt. lower. It consisted of only fine to fine fine
ord Jamaica, which sold at 935. to 965. 6d.
COCOA.-There is little alteration in the prices of Cocoa ;
the Market is heavy, and Brazil offered a little lower, on ac-
count of arrivals. British Plantation very dull.
OILS.-At public sale last week Southern Oil want off
somewhat heavily at 261. 10s. Sperm Oil briskly at the quo-
tations. Linseed Oil has improved, and considerable parcels
have changed hands at 435. and 445. Rape Old as last week.
There is but little business doing in Olive Oil ; the prices are
steady.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.