The Sun.
London, England, 1866-03-08 00:00:00

CIII7RCH RATES BILL.

Mr. HARDCAS TLE rose to move the second reading of
this bill, the object of which was to abolish the collection
of church rates. In introducing the measure the hon.
member reviewed the different bills that had been unsuc-
cessfully submitted to Parliament to deal with the griev-
ance, and said he had come to the conclusion that
the only way of dealing effectively with the matter
was to totally abolish church rates. It had been
said that the total abolition of church rates
would weaken the connexion batween the Church
and S tate, but this ho could not admit. As an illustration
of his view he asked hon. members whether church cess in
Ireland had weakened the Irish Church ? The commuta-
tion of tithes, ho contended, had not weakened the clergy.
Ho was of opinion that the reform of certain arrangements
did not as a necessity weaken those arrangements ; on
the central y, he believed that reform had tended to
strengthen them, and therefore ho could not think that
the connection of the Church with the State would in the
slightest degree be endangered by the total abolition of
church rates. The Dissenters had no desire to interfere
with any voluntary fund that might be contributed for the
repair of the Church. As long as church rates existed it
was a source of bitterness amongst Churchmen and
could
information not Dissen-
ters, and an evil of a social nature greater than that
there
(Hear, hear.) He was in posses-
sion of with respect to the collection
of church rates that showed thOy were calculated to do the
greatest damage to the Church. In one case a poor labourer
had had his home nearly all swept away and sold by auc-
tion because he refused to pay is. 31-d. for church rates.
Believing the present system fraught with the greatest
evil, he moved the second reading of the bill.
Mr. GILPIN seconded the motion. Ile congratulated
the house upon the manner in which the seconding read-
ing had been moved, and also upon the respect and high
position of the right hon. gentleman who was that day to
lead the opposition (Mr. Walpole). He thought the time
had arrived when the Church ought to assent to the pro-
posal. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Gilpin) was no enemy to
the Church of England except to her supremacy. Those
with whom.he was associated did not desire toleration—
they did not want it. (Hear.) What they required was
equality, and that, he contended, was their right. Free-
men should ask for nothing more—freemen should be con-
tent with nothing less. He therefore hoped the house
would agree to the second reading of the bill.

Mr. WALPOLE moved as an amendment that the bill
bo read a second time that day six months. If the law
was oppressive and unjust, steps could be taken to remedy
it without actually repealing the law itself. The last Par-
liament had come to a resolution that it would not be ex-
pedient to abolish church rates without providing an equi-
valent, and that decision, he considered, ought to
be respected. He thought the true object of the
agitation on the motion was not an amicable
settlement of the motion in dispute, but the
great aim and object of the Liberation Society, the great
promoters of the agitation, was the severance of the con-
necCion that at present existed between the Church and
State. The bill, he considered, was calculated to defeat its
intended object, that it would impair the Church and bo
productive of the greatest evil rather than the slightest
good. He therefore hoped the house would not give its
assent to the second reading.

Mr. DU CANE seconded the amendment, and, in doing
so, remarked that his side of the house had held out the
olive branch to the abolitionists until their arms had fairly
ached, and all to no purpose.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he did
not rise on that occasion to speak on the part of the Go-
vernment, because it was thought injudicious to bring for-
ward a measure on this subject without there was some
clear view of arriving at a successful conclusion. He there-
fore spoke as an individual member of the house, and in
doing so he must be permitted to say that he had never
known a matter so much debated as that now under dis-
cussion upon which so little legislation had taken place.
He deprecated the discussion of the matter as to the theory
of Church and State, and he also objected to the intro-
duction of the question of the franchise being imported
into the present complicated question. (Hear, hear.) Ac-
cording to the speech of the hon. member who had just sat
down, his argument came in brief to the following, viz.,
that the Church was quite safe within the walls of that
house as long as they kept the nation out. (Loud
laughter.) He thought it hardly creditable to the
country, hardly creditable to the Legislature or to the
good sense of the house, that such a state of things should
have so long existed. He thought that if some plan could
be decided on for retaining the machinery of church rates,
but rejecting the compulsory power of enforcing them,
then a solution of the question might be looked for. (Hear,
hear.) He could not vote for the bill of his hon.
friend, because its object was the simple abolition of
church rates without any other provision ; but he suggested
to the hon. gentleman opposite to say, now the door was
open, how far they wore prepared to go, and then per-
haps there would be some hopo of arriving at a satis-
factory termination of this much-vexed and long- tall:Cd-of
subject.

kr. B. HOPE suggested to the hon. member, who had
moved the second reading, the advisability ot postpon-
ing his motion in order to ascertain whether some mea-
sure acceptable to both parties could not be brought for-
ward.

Mr. BRIGHT, said the discussion had shown one thing
most conclusively, the church rates could not be main-
tained upon good and solid argument. The right hon.
member for Cambridge University had admitted them to
be a tax on Dissenters, and that being so it had been ex-
pressed in other quarters that a compromise might
be made, but he felt certain all compromise was
now impossible. Without compromising the prin-
ciple he thought there might be a way of doing it.
For years ago he himself had done pretty much the same
as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done that day, as
at that time he made a proposition to the house to get rid
of the magistrate, the summons, and the bailiff—in fact
getting rid of the compulsory power of collecting church
rake. (Hear, hear.) If they agreed to that at the present
time, he was certain that in five years hence the
churches would be in a good state, if not better than they
were at present. (Hear, hear.) The house would •kv this
means bo spared the trouble of discussing, as they had had
to do for five or six days for the last five and twenty years,
this miserable subject of the abolition of church rates.
The course he proposed was to read the bill a second time,
to allow it to go to committee, and that there it
might be so altered that the compulsory powers
might be altogether and entirely removed. (Hear, hear.)
If this course was adopted, he was certain that an end
would be put to those unhappy bickeriugs and heartburn-
ings which have so long existed. (Hear, hear.) The
Church would not be injured, and the ghastly spectre of
the Liberation Society would at once be laid. (Laughter.)
Mr. G. HARDY said he could not consent to the course
proposed by the hon. member for Birmingham. With re-
spect to the suggestions of the Chancollor of the Exchequer,
ho would like to know if the hon. geptlemanwould embody
them in a bill, and submit the measure for the approval of
Parliament. Ho thought it idle for the right hon. gentle-
man, holding the distinguished position which he did in
the Government and the country, to come forward and say
ho made the suggestion merely as an individual member,
and not as the organ of her Majesty's Government.

Mr. MORLEY said he was quite prepared to accept the
suggestion thrown out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. HARDCAS rLE said he should be inclined to give
every consideration to the course that had been proposed,
but he did not think that he was the proper person to draw
out the resolution.

Mr. DISRAELI said the house would do well to know
the exact question upon which they were called upon to
Tote. The bill was for the total and unconditional repeal
of church rates. That was the issue before thorns, and to
that policy he was entirely opposed.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading 285
Against it
Majority —33

The bill was then read a second time.
[The Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he entered the
house with the " ayes" in favour of the bill, WAS received
with loud cheers.]
were then disposed of, and
The other orders of the day
the house adjourned.

Foreign Mail Packet List
MAILS 13T71

Zealand, via Southampton
Marseilles Mar. 16
Ditto, via
ds by British packet
razil and Cape Ver • April 6.
Australia and New
2?,.
B Ditto, by French packet . ............. Mar. 2z,
Cape of Good Elope, Ascension, •and St. Helena... .Mar. .24
China hampton ..Mar. 22.
Daitte,nvianagkaarndscSiiiinegs.a.p.o.r.e.,..v.i.a.s ou..
.............
man
16
Falkland Islands...
Gibraltar, via Southampton . Mar. 6.
India (Calcutta), and Ceylon, via Southampton Mar. 22.
Ditto, via Marseilles —.... Mar. 16
India (Bombay), via Southampton.. Mar. 16.
Ditto, via Marseilles .. Mar. 10.
Mauritius, via Southampton
Ditto, via Marseilles Mar. 10.
Newfoundland
...SI Mar. H
Portugal April 6.
Ditto, by private ship to Lisbon...
United Btates and British North America, by Bri-
tish packet

Ditto, by United States packet, via Southamp-
ton
Ditto, via Cork ...
Ditto, by Canadian packet, via Londonderry.. Mar. 9.
West Indies and Pacific (except Bahamas, Cuba,
and Mexico Feb. 28
Cuba and Mexico
Bahamas, via New York. April Q.
Bermuda, ditto Mar. '4
West Coast 01 Africa. Madeira, and Teneriffc Mar. 12,