The Sun.
London, England, 1832-04-11 00:00:00

• for the change in their opinions, and had adverted to r
perch which he (Lord Wharncliffe) made in March p'
10 Jest year on this subject, in which he had said that the
tc•House of Commons, dissolved and re-elected on the ques
tion of the Reform Bill, would be a H ot
--4 That House had been dis-olved, and the result was und,
niable—it hat been what he anticipated—and it had pro-
'aced the difficulties under which they were at that in -
ment li6otiring. The Iroid, Duke had a curious mode n
getting rid of the difficulty—he said that the Ministeis
ought to retire, and to place them in the same situation a.
before. Could the Noble Duke have read what had passe,

within the last viz months when he propos• d such a course?
Coul I he have seen the occurrences of that period, and vet
think, that if Ministers would retire, they could place Par-
liament in the same situation as before ?---( Hear, hear.)

•-•-•- -
The Ministers could not do so.—(Hear, hear, bear.)
By the dissolution which had taken place, Reform had
made such a stride that neither the Ministers—no, nor the
Noble Duke himself—could place them in the same situa-
tion as before.—(}Tear.) The Noble Duke said, no
wonder that the House of Commons: constituted as it was
at present, had sent them this Bill. It was, indeed, IN.
wonder. It would send them that Bill again ; and it

they refused that, it would send them another Bill of just
the same sort. ..To them; therefore, he said that they
meet read this Bill a second time, and they must give it
such a reception as wool! satisfy the House of Commons
that they did not reject without examination a Bill which
that House had sent them.—(Hear.) This was a wee-
lure that that House had sent them twice over—it had
come twice recommended from the Crown, and after a
backing front the people—(Hear)--such as had been
seldom seen sirs any occasion whatever.—(Hear.) The
Noble Duke called on the Government—they had paused
RS long as they could—they had no power to pause longer
--they could only do so by ge'ting the King to send down
a message to Parliament showing a change in his opinions,
or by dissolving the Parliament. O the first he should sac
-nothing; as to dissolving the Parliament, the result would
be that they would get a wore Bill than this.—(Hear.)
It was for the purpose of avoiding a worse, that he urgently
recommended their Lordships to vote for the second
reading of this measure. The Noble Duke ( Wel-
lington) throughout the whale of this trans-
action had recommended the worst of two things;
but he (Lord Wharncliffe) called upon their Lordships
and every man who was not determined to set his face
against all Reform, not to throw back upon the House of
Commons this Bill again, but at least to try whether in
Committee they could not make it a Bill which would
be more satifactory to themselves, as well as satisfactory
to the country.—(Hear ) The Noble Di. ke had said
the Bill of Reform was not thought of before the French
' Revolution ! Good God ! Could he have forgotten all
the proceedings in the House of Commons an-
terior to that time ? Could he have forgotten that
from time to time, for years and years, before the French
Revolution the question of Reform had been agitat..d,
Until at last it had been sent up to their Lordships
by an overwhelming majority in that House ? Because
their Lordships had so long refused all Reform, they
had now got the proposition in a very different form to
that in which they might have had it. The Noble
buke was entirely wrong in a great deal of what he
had stated on this subject. He had passed a great
Part of his life in the service of his country, for which
every one must owe him gratitude; but he bad not
"", the progress of the feeling of this country.
(Heer, and loud cheers.) There were circumstances in
his life, which had prevented him from seeing that pro-
gress of feeling. He (Lord W.) was a better judge of
that feeling than the Noble Duke. He had been
long in Parliament, representing a great body of
PectPle, and, since he had been in it, he
e°4ld without hesitation assert that the feeling for
Reform had been gradually increasing.—(Cheers.) The
retitle of grievance had long existed—it had been growing
—it had become more and more difficult to stem it—
it had never ceased to progress.—(Loud cheers.) Not
"ly had the Noble Duke fallen into an error on the sub-
hbut be (Lord W.) bad heard the late Mr. Canning say
the was a lull on the subject of Reform, and
that the desire for it had, consequently, ceased.—
He (Lord W.) was then living in the midst of
a vast population and assured Air. Canning that he was
mistaken. He told him that the lull would not last
long.—that the desire for Reform would again burst forth,
and in a form in which it could not be resisted.—
(Cheers.) It had been said, that if on the last
occasion, the King's name had not been used as it had,
the feeling throughout the country on the iinpor-
tent subject of Reform would not have been such as it was.
Ile (Lord W.) blamed as much as the Noble Duke
did, the use of the King's name in the manner in which
it bad been used ; but this he would say, that it was not
is the power of the King himself now to stop the
progress of Reform.—(Great cheering.) There had
ttriten such a feeling upon it as to have rendered it utterly
impossible to stop it.—(H..ar, hear.) If their Lordships
would but consider the subject, he believed there was
good sense enough in the country to do them jus-
tice ; but if they persisted in refusing their sanction
t° this measure, of going into Committee, he could assure
their Lordships, as a Peer of that House, that this mea-
sure or a worse would pass Parliament.—(Great cheering.)
It was not for the Nob e Duke, nor yet fur him
(Lord
), to say they were satisfied upon the
state of the representation, it was for the whole of the
country to be satisfied thereon.—(Cheers.) It was not for
a certain number of persons, be they ever so wise, to say
what the state of Government ought to be, but it was for
the country which was to be governed, to be satisfied ; and
without feeling that satisfaction, it was utterly impossible
for any Government to proceed.—(Cheers.) The Noble
Duke had adverted to his (Lord W.'s) speech in October
last, respecting the then feeling of the cam-
TtunitY. He knew there was a great difficulty
ien as he knew there was a great difficulty now ; but if
_those who were for a moderate Reform as well as those
w
mihnds o were for no Reformat all, would seriously set their
to work to make this Bill better than it
was,
he did not see anything like an impossibility in
their being able to come to terms.—(Hear, hear.) He
begged Noble Lords to consider the force of their own
.argument. Was that House a part of the Legislature,
brought together to consider the subject, and that yet
thought fit to declare that they canal not consider the
question so as to alter any one of the clauses of the Bill ?
Such a declaration would alone become a body
ofpersons
incapable of making laws, and only possessing the mere
power of accepting or rejecting what was sent them from
the other House of Parliament. Such an argument
most dangerous ; and he was afraid it
might be tuinveld4
against them if any question should hereafter arise on the
subject of that House. The Noble Duke said that the
responsibility of the measure was now on the Govern-
ment, but that that House, by consenting to the Second
Reading, would relieve them of the responsibility. How ?
'That House could not be responsible fur bringing forward
the measure. What would they be responsible for ? For
considering that Bill, to see whether it" could safely be
passed into a law. That was all. For he assured his
Noble Friend that he should be found ready to refuse to
agree to this Bill when it came from the Committee, if he
did not think it fit to pass into a law. What, then,
`would be his situation if, on the third reading, he rejected
it? He should stand better with the country than those
'the refused to have it read a second time. He should
Stand before the country as not unwilling to listen to the
arguments in favour of the Bill, and as anxious to exa-
rllne it; bat as determined afterwards to do his
at), and throW it out, if he thought it could not safely be
opted. The responsibility would still be on the Go-
.::ntnent. He had taken notice of these circumstances at
t% t and now he came more directly to the question itself.
L'it said that it was of advantage to
give this Bill a second
tAding- . The circumstance, of the country had changed.
''hat had been the effect of the former rejection of this
measure? It had beenie h
to place them in a false position
'-With the country,
no doubt, that although seve-
ral Of them did at' i
the time,ad
arid immediately afterwards,
"Y that they were not averse to all Reform, yet that, in
the'Pitt of that declaration, it was impossible to deny that
;;40 result of that. vote had been to create the belief that
were determined not to pass anythiag that was like
a were of Reform in Parliaonaent that should be useful
foe any purposes whatever.
the great reasons on
tithicts they threw out the formneerof Were anxious that the country should Billh was,
that they
are an opportunity
of considering the subject more calmly; but that motive
was not admitted by the peo le,
erreiehiikdnheweeit;haat
rteteicre.
were Noble Lords who thou hi: t*la
ejce.iction of the mea-
tion, and who believed that agsecond
sure would be attended with different
cryqu eorif c
Reform.e f from
the former, and would finally silence the
1 He w" of opinion that they
dwould be disappointed.
They had had addresses
which
had
a Bitlhl
the constitution,
rejected,
se
tldei,taus
tt
jaonnads,
petitions, and many
I of these petitions asked fon
effectual as that
every one of them pointed out abuselsjeinen and called on their Lordshiphs to amend them. As to
the Noble Duke's (of Buckingham's) am's) Bill, it contained no
titeration which might not be
they
in the Committee.
Ail the principles of the
were then discussing
:re to be found in the Bill of theey Nobleasked
Duke. He said
hedules 7, and denied all this ; but be
.ed him, were not
C and. D open to ,'x he
there any
It which might not be applied to them? But
Vt the Noble Duke said he would f' well; bat be lumps a. number not disfranchise.
of boroughs together,

,ad gives thorn only two Members instead of ten ! Well,
f this was not disfranchisement, he really knew not the
meaning of the word.—(Cheers and laughter.) But he
would even for a moment admit the Noble Duke's mea-
sure was far better than that before them ; he felt bound
t r s3y that, considering the way after which the public
mind had been wound up. it came all too late. If, how-
ever, after the second reading of this Bill, the Nob!e Duke
should think proper to produce his, and have it read a first
time, he would be ready to give it the fullest considera-
tion ; but certainly the prospect of beholding it should nor
divert him from voting for the second reading of the
Bill before thetn. He thought in this he wa.
acting well and wisely; it was most desirable tha
the question should be brought to a speedy termination
if, under the constant pressure of intimidation from with-
out, the question were delayed for any great length ol
time, it would soon be impossib'e for their Lordships to
heliherate.—(Hear, hear.) I-le had tie doubt that their
Lordships had acted right upon the occasion, when a
measure of Relorm was Irst before them ; and though
•heir decision dieple.sed the country, it had yet effected
much goo 1. The violent excitement which tnen prevailed
had in a great degree subsided—the peop'e who were for
merly clamorous for the measure in its perfect state, woul'i
now submit to many alterations in it which at that time
they would not have submitted to.—(Hear, hear.) He re-
peated they were then right in rejecting the Bill. There
was an absolute necessity that they should have done so
for the purpose of assereing themselves to the country, and
securing the free enjoyment of their rights and privileges.
But then, said the Noble Lord, intimidation has been
attempted ever since. It has only changed its form. It
no longer assails us under vulgar form—of brutal attacks
upon our persons and property ; but it is still continued,
and under a form still more dangerous. He admitted that
this was the case ; but he thott2ht he should not behave
as he ought to the Noble Earl (Grey) if he did not sty
that he had borne himself in a manner highly creditable,
if he (Lord Grey) had, as it war repeatedly stated he had,
the power in, his band of forcing this measure through the
House, and yet resisted the great pressure which had been
directed against him.—(Hear, hear.) And all he could
sty was, that if this measure were ultimately carried in
that way, this in itself would create a revolution If, be-
cause they hesitated to adopt a measure sent up to them
a second time from the House of Commons, they were
to be rendered the victims of a violent exercise of power,
and as had Fern said, swamped by a gush of new
Members, he declared that the House of Lords would
from that moment be dispieed by the whole country.—
(Cheers.) He entreated of them, therefore, to pause anti
consider. He meant not to use to them the language of
intimllati:}n, but he entreated them to consider. He
asked them if, under all the circumstances, it was wise to
refuse to deliberate upon the Bill ? He would say, that
any leader of an administration who should venture to take
the step alluded to would incur the heaviest responsibility
ever taken by man.—(Loud cheers.) Nothing could ex-
cuse him but some imprudent act of their own—(cheers),
which would in some degree tend to palliate so great a de-
parture from the constitutional course of things._
(Cheers.) Was it wise, however, to incur the d 'tiger of
such a measure without an evident necessity ? Heavy-, he
believed, would be the responsilelity on the party who
refused to consider the Bill. It would place them not only
in opposition to the House of Commons, but to the crown
and to the people.—(Hear, hear.) Besides, it was not
well to accustom the country to such considerations. The
subject had been too much bandied about already. He
wished that there had been a greater disposition on the
side of the Hotise from which he spoke to conciliate; but
let them not deceive themselves. When violent measures
are firer proposed, they shock all well-disposed and peace-
able persons; but if they are frequently advocated and
brought before the public rye, the people are at length IA
to consider that trifling causes, would justify a step from
which they would have originally shrunk with horror.
They should endeavour to come to some satisfactory ar-
rangement. Tke feeling of the country, he was happy
to think, was a'tered. Formerly the general cry was
for the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill ; but
now, if they did not reject the measure, they would have
an opportunity which never might occur again, or doing
at least some good. There was another ground on which
his Noble Friend (Harrowby) had defended the change in
their conduct—that was, the impossibility of getting rid
of this Bill; for, whoever might preside over the Govern-
ment of this country, whether the Noble E trl or the
Noble Duke, Reform in Parliament, on the principle of
that Bill, must be granted. Now he begged them to con-
sider what were the principles of the Bill ; they were not
to be taken from the clauses, but they were to be collected
from the preamble. If they meant to reform Parliament
at al:, it could not be reformed ,on any other principles
than those set forth in the preamble. Let them observe
the abuses which were denounced, not simply by the Re•
formers, but by the Anti-Reformers. First, the nomina-
tion boroughs—the boroughs so called at least, and sup-
posed to return Members to Parliament without the inter

',tendon of any constituency. Now he agreed with the
Noble Baron (Ellenborough) that they were of great ser-
vice to the country ; he regretted their loss ; he doubted
if any other scln me would put the country in possession
of so much useful service ; but let them not deceive them-
selves—the word had gone forth. They had become an
object of detestation ; the people thought that they made
the House of Commons a body which disposed of their
property, dealt out their money, and over which they
had no control. In the tunes in which they lired this
would not be endured ; more or less eve,y Member of
Parliament must be returned by a popular constituency. It
would be their duty in the Committee to see that the de-
pendence of the Member was not in all cases on places decid-
edly subject to agitation and the influence of demagogues.
Next they came to the enfranchisement of the great towns.
This he believed might be regarded as given up. He did not
think even the Noble Duke of Wellington denied it ; for
all must feel that those great towns must be in come way
or other represented. Well, then, admitting those two
principles, was it possible that they could hesitate in
making some alteration in the constituency of other places?
For instance, it could not be tolerated, that when the con-

stitueucy was enlarged in other places, the Member for
Bath should he returned by a close corporation. He was

no extensive Reformer from choice ; but, if the two first
principles were granted, they must also concede this. The
next point was, the attempt to diminish the expenses of
elections. He doubted if this would succeed ; but he sup-
posed that nobody would dre4m of denying that it would
be a consummation most devoutly to be wished. Every-
body knew the tremendous expenses of county elections,
and certainly nothing could be more desirable than that
. .

they should be diminished. He was not quite clear
however, that in some instances, under the operation of
the Bill, whether they would not he increased. As to
the effects likely to accrue from the rejection of the Bill,
Noble Lords have only looked to the same consequences
that flowed from the rejection of the late Bill—riots—and
the apprehension of civil war. He agreed with the Noble
Lords, that these riots might be at once put down, and
if they were not, great blame rested on the Government.
But if they now rejected the Bill, what they had to ap-
prehend was a growing dislike on the part of the people
to the institutions under which they lived—and a feel-
ing that t:,eir Lordships were acting for their own pur-
poses and views rankling in the breasts of their coun-
ttymen, which it would be most difficult to remove.

And this, he contended, was an evil which they should
not incur by rejecting the Bill, unless they were morally
certain that no good could come from it. Their Lord.

ships had certainly, on several occasions, refused Bills
which had been sent up to them by the House of Corn-
....

naons. They had refused the Catholic Bill, but they after..
wards passed it. He did not mean to sty that the House
might not, if they were unwise enough so to do, have once
again to reject it, and they would undoubtedly have had the
support, if not of a majority, at least of a portion of the
country equal to any which could be arrayed against
them. But how were they then ? They had not a
House of Commons as ntarly as might he divided on the
question; but a House which had twice sent them up that
Bill by a large majority. Would they have the people on
their side? Could they count on the support of the
people, as on the question of Catholic Emancipation ? He
asked their Lordships to think on the matter and consult
those among whom they were living ; they would find
that thi-re was little to hope from the feeling of the country
and much to apprehend. And where was the party in
the country to support them? They were told by certain
persons that violent measures always should be resorted

to ; but these persons never took part in the s:ruggle
when it had once arrived. They said, you ate right to

continue to resist. They told them by private communica-
tion, and in the newspapers, that they would lend them
their best assistance ; but on the day of trial they were sure

to shrink away and conceal themselves in some corner.
He was told that if he conceded the second reading, he

conceded all the principles of the Bill. He meant to siy
that if he could, he would secure a safe Reform in Parlil-

went, founded on the preamble of the Bill ; but let nobody
tell him he was bound to anything further. He was n•ot
bound, for instance, to support the ten-pound clause, nor
the whole of Schedule A. He was not, in short, pledged
to anything for the Committee. He was pledged to con-
•ider and to see (since nothing but Reform, founded on the
three great principles in the preamble, could he given or
accepted) how that Reform might be rendered most safe.
But this word of agreeing to the principles frightened
Nuld Lords. There was no reason for this terror. They

were not pladgect to the whole Bill 1w supporting the se-

,:ond reading, Avery man in the Committee had a rig'l
70 stop where he pleased. But no man could vote for ant
part of the Bill without admitting that an extensive meii-
sure of Reform was necessary. If they did vote for the se-
cond reading, thinking otherwise, it was mere delusion—
s silly attempt to deceive and to beguile the people. Then
was nothing to prevent Noble Lords acting as they pleased
in the Committee. The fallacy was to place a fake view of
the case before them. The Noble Baron (Ellenborough).
last night, made a speech which he could not sufficiently
admire; a great part of it related to the borough system.
Et was most able and convincing, and he could not
'ielp feeling sorry that he (Lord Ellenborough) had not
liven it at an ea, tier period of the discussion. But, in the
;;resent state of the country, he regretted to say, the speech,
ike the Bill of the Noble Duke, came all too late. The
feeling on the subject of the boroughs was so strong that
it took away all the respect due to the House of Commons.
And whatever might have been the adv..ntae of the
system, it was now enerely lost, He did not believe that I
even if it were continued, it would Work in the same be-
neficial manner as before. It was true that the great ad-
atitag. of returning those useful and distinguished person,
v.ho could not obtain ct seat by other means, would be
likewise lost under the new scheme ; but he conceived
simie remedy might be devised for t`.is. He begged the
Noble Lords, before they voted, to consider how far conti-
nued resistance to the popular feeling had in various in-
stances mended the matter. They tnight take a lesson from
the last twenty years. Ile begged them to look back to
the period of the American war. They had been entreated

to pause in their attempt at taxation. They persevered,
notwithstanding the warning voice of the wisest states-
men, who conjured them to desist. Those who lived then
marvelled at them. Still they went on striving to con-
quer when they might by a slight concession origin:ll;y
have gained, and what was the result ? an immense loss of
idood and treasure on our part, and the independence of
America. By their obstinacy in refusing a timely step of
concession, they lost the country. He begged to call their
attention to another eve nr—the struggle which Ireland
made fir her commercial freedom. For a leneth of time
it was refused, but set list they were awed into granting
it by a body of armed men. Was the Catholic Ques.
tion no lesson ? The Catholics thought, and justly,
that they were entitled to the boon they prayed for ;
s, thought all the great and distinguishe•l statesme❑
of the day: So thought, amongst the rest, William Pitt,
but, nevertheless, they refused it. What came at list ?
They taught a lesson to Ireland. They taught Ireland her
strength. They taught her that the only way to gain
anything was to show a firm front to them ; at last they
succeeded, but the prolongation of the struggle hail pre-
vented Government from reaping the benefit. It the boon
had been granted early, this would have made them a grate-
ful country; but the agitation consequent on the struggle
had made them an urn:rateful country.—(Cheers.) Next he
would ask them to look to the resiKance to this great
question of Reform—was it diminishing ? He lamented
that, on the contrary, the course of events bad well nieh
deprived them of the power of deliberating. This very
Bill proved it. Timely concessio❑ of the little at first
prayed for, would have warded off such a me sure for
many years. They could not at first agree to any change.
The effect was, that the question had become irresistible.
A similar measure of Refirm to that now before them
must be given. He knew the Noble Duke did not agree
with him. His mind had not }et come to that point,trut
he felt that it would do so at no distant period. It had
been asked whether under the old House of Commons the
country hail net prospered and flourished ; he allowed it
had ; but that was not the question. What was the opi..
niun of the people? Without their cordial co-opera-ion, no
Gevernment could in those days be conducted. He
had done with what he had to say to their Lord-
ships on the genera question. He hail only a
few words more to add. The Noble Duke had spoke❑ of
a compromise between the Noble Earl (Grey) and his
Noble Friend. He had said, you have bee❑ compromising
for the last six months; what has bee❑ the result of your
compromise ? Now it was true, that shortly after the
decision upon the late Bill in that House, several confe-

!ewes, as they bad been called, but he would say conver-
sations, took place between the Noble Earl, and his friend,
and himself. The result of that negotiation certainly was
that they understood each other's views better than they
had dime before ; but they did not come to any satisfactory
understanding. These conferences, or conversations, then
broke off; but there was no compromise. They had lat-
terly been resumed ; but never would they consent to any
compromise of their opinions. He did not take any blame
to himself, or to his Noble Friend (liarrowby ), because
they had been willing to engage in conversation with the
Noble Earl upon this subject. There was no shame to any
part •; to the Noble Earl (grey), or to themselves, if
they tried to see how far their views upon the subject
might be conciliated. Beyond this nothing passed. He
believed, however, the consequences of these conversations
had been to introduce a spirit of conciliation between the
Noble Earl (Grey) and themselves, and to assure the ques-
tion a more mai ure consideration in that llouse. But he
again declared there was no &mar otnise—that nothing
which could affect their honour or their votes in that
House had taken place. He might, perhaps, be allowed
to make one more remark ; it was, that originally, when
the question came forward, he had expected that the Go-
vernment, though pledged to Reform, would have pro-
duced a measure more conciliatory to the feelings of the
Noble Lords en that side of the House ; and hid this for-
merly been done, he conceived that much trouble might
have been spared, and much excitement prevented in tie
country. The country was now, however, looking
anxiously for their Lordships' decision. The lerotth of
time during which the Bill had been agitated had unset-
tled people's minds, and had been in the highest degree
detrimental. On all sides, in every part of the country,
all interests—the trading, the agricultural, the manufac-
turing—all entertained the most earnest desire to have the
question settled. If he could bring himself to believe that
by voting against the second reading of the Bill, he could
settle the question, and put an end for ever to the agitation
of the subject of Reform, that vote he would most cheer-
fully give. There was nothing in the Bill which gave
him so favourable an opinion as not to prevent him
from giving such a vote. He was even persuaded,
that although the great body of the people would
be disappointed by such a result, there was also a
great body of persons who would be highly satisfied
if the quest on could thus be set at rest for ever.
But it was because he was perfectly sensible that it
could not be so set at rest ; it was because he was
perfectly- sensible that it their Lordships rejected the
present Bill, it would, in a very short time, come before
them agai❑ in a worse form, that he entreated them not to
reject it until they found that it was absolutely imposible
to render it less obnoxious. The emirse which his
Majesty's Government had taken in introducing this sub-
ject, was moi,t reprehensible. They had mistaken the
noise and cl moor of the country for good sense and de-
liberate opinion. They had not conducted themselves with
the wisdom of statesmen. They had tried to outrun the
popular expectation. They had tried, by granting more
than was necessary, to stop the demand of the friends of
Reform. The effect of such a proceeding was, not to stop
the demand, but to increase it. On them rested the re-
sponsibility of the measure. If the results of it should

prove hereafter to be henefiei►l, it would be well ; but if)
as he and those who thought with him dreaded, they
should prove pernicious, great indeed would be the
responsibility of its authors. He would end by repeat-
ing that he looked to the decision of their Lordships
with the deepest anxiety. Ile felt that in the history
of the country no vote had ever been given, the probable

consequenes of which were sa motunitlus. He once
more, therefore, entreated their Lordships to consider
whether it wood not be better to give the Bill such a re-
ception as should show tha compry that they were not
averse to all reform whatever; and he must beg to add,
that it did not appear to him that a❑ obstinate repetition

of hostility to a measure which had been so unequivocally

sanctioned by the appprobation of the other [louse of Par-

liament, tvould be a wise and discreet exercise of that riat
with which their Lordship were undoubtedly invested by
the C7onstituioo.—(flear.)
There was how a general cry of " Adjourn, adjourn."
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and the Earl of \VINCHILSEA

both rose ; but we believe it was the latter Nobleman who

moved the question of adjournment; it was immediately
agreed to, and at Quarter before One this morning their
Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, AriuL 10.

Mr. CALVERT presented a petition from the ship-
nwners and others interested in the navigation of the
River Thames, against the Gr ivesend Pier Bill. The
petitioners complained of the interruption to the free ma-
vieation of river by the erection of such a projection as
the proposed pier, which would extend not less than 215
teet towards the bed of the river, and which would greatly
:ffect the interests of 1,200 watermen, many of whom
would be thrown out of employ.
The order of the day for the third reading of the
Gravesend Pier Bill having been read,
Mr. HODGES moved the third reading of the Bill, and
said that competent surveyors, from three public hodi,s,
•he Admiralty, the Custom-house, and the Corporation of
London, had reported that no inconvenience would arise
:rom the erection of the proposed pier. He put it to
:he House whether the metropolitan artisans, of whom not
ess than 110,000 visit Gravesend yearly, should not have
the seine accommodation for landing as the more wealthy

classes, who were enabled to go to any part of the arp
coat of Eneland, and at all which places piers were
built for their accommodation.
Sir BYAM MARTIN opposed the Bill, on the groune
that the proposed pier would obstruct the navigation of th,
river, for it was a well-known fact that all erections in s
river created dangerous shoals. He moved that the Bill
be read a third time this day six months.
Sir R. INGLIS also spoke against the Bill, and sup-
ported the amendment.
Mr. HODGES, in reply to the observations of Sir B.
Martin, assured the House that the pier would be so erected
as to preclude the possibility of its creating shoals.
Mr. WARBURTON expressed his determination of op
posing the Bill, unless a chose were introduced to alloy,
the public to land at any part of the pier they though•

proper.
• After a desultory disca<_sio❑ between Aldermen WOOD
and VEN.tni.Es, Mr. WICKS, Mr. HUNT, and severa'
other Hon. Memkirs, the House divided, when there ap-
peared

-
For the Amendinerit
Against it
Majority against the Amendment —1.5.
The Bill was then rear; a third thee.
Mr. 110DGES then moved the addition of two clauses
to the Biti, which were read a second time, and went
through a Committ,e of the whole Ilmse, after which
they were read a third time. On the motion that the Bill

if() now p!ss,
Mr. HUME moved an amendment to the Bill, the
object of which was to make ev?ry person who embarked
Or disembarked at the jetty of the pier, to pay the fee of
3d., leaving persons at liberty to land or embark at any
part of the town they chose, and thereby destroying the
monopoly.
Mr. HUNT seconded the amendment.
The House divided on the amendment, when there ap-
peared,-

For the amendment 45
Against it 2l
Majority for the amendment 5.24
The 131,1, ii ith the amendment, was then passed.

Mr. KING DON },rought in a Bill for the employment
of agricultural lw,ourers, which was read a first time, and
ordered to he pr•iotrii
Mr. POULETT THOMSON obtained leave to bring
in a Bill to continue an Act of the last Session, IT al!ow-
ing certain articles to he imported into Barbados and
St. Vincent, free of duty, which was rendered necessary
in consequence of the late hurricanes in that iiland.
Mr. HUME did not see that any one could object to
the intrAuction of such a Bill. He only hop •d that
the Right Hon. G 'utleroan would reconsider the subject,
and allow every thing in the shape of provisions to be
imported into all the isl toils free of dut.
Mr. W. BROUGHAM moved that the claim of Mr.
Bury llutchiLson on the East India Company should
be referred to a Select Cornmitt.e of the House. The
Hon. Gentleman said this claim arose out of a large
sum of money advanced by th• brother of the petition• r
to the Rajah of Serampore, which had not been repaid.
The claim had been recognised by every Governor-Gene-
ral that had been in India since the time of the tran-action;
Liu., the Coutt of Directors in Leadenhall-street had in-

terf-red, and would A', aid no assistance to Mr. Hut-
chinson's reprensentatives in getting payment, and
the IeIeTTILL'S of Serampore were now under the m
went of the company. Such being the case, he (Mr.
Brougham) thought that the justice of the case could only
he met in a select Committee.

Mr. Ahlerm ni THOMSON second ti the motion.
He had before brouht the case under the notice of the
House, and he was of opinion that it ought to he speedily
inquired into, for many of the persons connected with the
transaeti,m were alive i;nil now in thin country.
Sir JOHN MALCOLAI could not let the present op-
portunity pass wittiour warning his M tjesty's Government
that they ought to give their serious attention to this
claim. He was sorry to see that neither to this one nor
that of Nozeed had they paid attention as they ought to
have done. If this motion was agreed to, there would be
claims without end ma-le against the India Company.
Mr. HUME w,s sorry to se, none belonging to the Board
Of Control in their places; if this was the way in
which they attended to their duties, he thought the
country would be able to dispense with three or four
of them. He begged to ask the Noble Lord (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) what course Government meant
to pursue, whe' her they would grant the Committee or not?
Lord ALT HOBO was not aware that any opposition to
the motion was intended by the Government.

After a few words from Sir C. FORBES in favour of
the motion, and from Sir J. MALcoun in explanation,, the
Committee was appointed.
Mr. SHAW moved for returns from the Registrar of
the Court of C,ancery in Ireland, as to certrin salaries,
fees, and compensations, received u❑der the Act 6th Geo.
I V'.—Ordered.
On the motion of Mr. STANLEY, the report of the
Ii i-h Tithe Bib was brought up.
On the [notion of Lord ALTHORP, tho Naval Civil
Department Bill was read a third thee.

The Irish Baking Bill and the Irish Nisi Piius Court
Bill, were severally read a third time and pissed.
The LORD ADVOCATE moved that the House re-
solve itself into Ginanittee on the Court of Exchequer
in Ireland Cotnrnsation Bill.

Mr. G. DAWSON aijected to a motion of ao much
importance as the present, which gave away a grant of
2,0001. per annum of the public money, being brought
forward when the House was so thinly attended.
Mr. HUME said—With reference to the question, he
had of jected last Session to the Bill ; but, after maturer
inquiry, as one of the Committee, he now felt bound to
give it his support.
After a few words from Sir Waz. RAE and Mr. GEORGE
DA WSON,
Lou' ALTHORP observed, that in no point of view
could this 6e considered as an additional grant. Mr.
Abercrombie was at present in possession of 4,0001. a
year, as Chief Baron of the Exchequer Court in Scotland
—which Court was found to be useless—and it teas there-
fore proposed that half of that Judge's salary should be
retained on the abolishment of the Court; by which too
thousand pounds per annum would be gained br the
public.
Mr. HUME considered that if the term " job" could be
applied to this question, it was that of a little job, to get
rid of a much greater job—which latter had originated
with the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dawson) and his
colleagues.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee.
The LORD ADVOCATE, at some length, went into a
detail of the duties attached to the Court of Exchequer in
Scotland ; the saving which would arise to the public
from its confined and comparatively trivial duties being
transferred to the Court of Session ; and concluded by
moving a resolution to the effect—" That it was the
opinion of the Committee that there be granted out of the
fees r,f the Justiciary Court, a sum not exceeding 2,000/.
per annum to the Chief Baron of the Court of Exchequer,
and the sum of 1,600/. to such of the other two Barons,
on retirinfr, from their offices; and that a sum not ex-
ceeding 0001. per annum be granted to• the officer of the
Court of Quarter Session on whom may devolve the duties
and busint as 01 the Exchequer Court."
Mr. GOULBURN objected to the grant altogether, as
one totally unnecessary. With reference to the appiOnt-
ment of Mr. A' ercombie, which had taken place during
the time he (Mr. Gculborn) wits in office, he would deny
that it was considered as a useless office, for it had met with

the entire approbation of the teen Oppo,itron. He con-
cluded by molting, as an amendliaent, to leave out so much
of the resolution a, related to the pensions.
Lord ALTHORP bore testimony to the great abilities
and talents of Mr. Abercrombie. He saw nothing in the
propos d measure hut what was prompted by a proper feel-
ing of economy in the public expenditure of the country.
Mr. G. DAWSON replied—The Noble Lord opposite
(Lord Althurp) had found fault with his (Mr. D.'s)
phraseology, He hoped, however, when, as a public man,
he was treating of public measures, he would be allowed
to express himself in that mariner which nature pointed
out to hini.—(A laugh.) Mr. .Abercrombie could not
urge in his favour that lie had recently left a lucratve
profession to take upon himself the duties of this office.
He had only held this office two years. The proposed
compensation was nothing better than a job, and was &-
together inconsistent with the economical principles upon
which the present Whig Administration came into office.
Lord ALTHORP, in reply to what had been said with
respect to Government not offering Mr. Abercrombie an
other office when they had determined to abolish the rffice
which lie then held, would only state that the Lord Chan-
cellor had offered Mr. Abercrombie an important offier
under hint in the Court of Chancery, in order to save this
expense, and whereby he curtailed his own pa-
itjr7leangte ;but Mr. Abercrombie had thought fit to decline
the proffered situa-ion.—(Hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN could well conceive that a person who
bad held the office of a Chief Judge might with propriety
refuse to accept a subordinate office, although its emolu-
ments might amount to a sufficient compensation for the
office from which he had retired.
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON contended that the
Scotch Judges, with an increase of laborious duties, ought
also to have an adequate increase of salary equal to the re-
untmeiation which the English Judges received.
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought that 2,0001. a year was too
little to maintain the dignity of the Judgeship in Scotland,
.ir to insure proper respect for that office. He certainly
!bought that if 2,000/. ta' year was given tO a retiring

Judge, 2,0001. a year was tau little inr the remunerati,
,f an active Judge.
Mr. HUME thought that our Judges were more extr,
vagantly paid than any other class of persons. He hope
he Noble Lord would net persist in this rash proceeding
After a few words from Sir W. Rae, Sir G. Clerl.
Alr. Stricldand, Mr. I4unt, Mr. J. Crmpbell, and Sir T
Denman, strangers were ordered to withdraw ; hut on on
re-admission we found that no diyi,icn had taken place
The House resumed. The resolutions were reported, an,
were ordered to ba taken into consideration to-mot row.
A petition was presented from a parish in the counts
of Kilkenny, against the tithe system ; and one to the saw'
effect from Paisley.

Mr. WYSE presented several petitions against tht-
tithe system, from the county of Kildare, one of which
was signet! by 17,000 inhabitant: cif the county, and n.
which the Hon. Member called the particular attention o
she House, cc the petitioners were decidedly opposed to
he system which the Tecretaty for Ireland was about tt
force on that country by his Hill, which stood for the third
reading to morrow (t'tis day).
A desultory conversation ttok place relative to the word-
'rig of the petition from Paisley, after which the petitions
were ordered to be printed.

Lord KILLEEN presented several petition from places
in the county of Math, and also from the city of Water-
rorcl, in favour of Parliamentary Reform.

After a few words from Mr.WVvsE and Mr. LEADER, on
the importance of these petitions, they were ordered to be

printed.
Mr. CHAPMAN presentE-(.1 ;AY° petitions from places in
Westmeath county, against the tithe s;-tltsm.
Several other petitions were presented, when the House
adjourned at a Quarter past Eleven.