The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-26 00:00:00

they liked to Canada, and they could not keep a single sol-
dier in that country. He was glad the discussion had taken
this turn, and he was gratified that the Secretary for War
had answered the question which had been put to him in so
conciliatory and statesmanlike a manner. (Loud cheers.)

Mr. HORSMAN had heard with great satisfaction that
the Secretary of State for War assented to some extent to
his hon. and gallant friend's proposal for a commission.
He wished to suggest that the official element should be
introduced in this commission as sparingly as possible, if
even it were not excluded altogether, since one of its most
important functions would be to review the proceedings
that had already, taken place under official authority. It
would also be desirable to secure an early report, and a limit
ought, he thought, to be put to the period at which the
first report should, be made. He did not see why the first
report, not the final report, but embodying the main re-
commendations of the commission—should not be made
within three months. He agreed with the right hon. gen-
tleman that it was out of the question to attempt to fortify
our coasts so as to prevent an enemy from landing. (Hear,
hear.) The only fortifications required were those that
were necessary for the protection of our ships and arsenals.
To build batteries along the coast for the enemy to land
under was absurd. There was no doubt an enemy pos-
sessed greater facilities for landing and for the transport
and embarkation of troops than he ever had before, and
there were many points along the coast on which an enemy
would have no great difficulty in landing. He agreed with
General Shaw Kennedy that we should not be safe until
we had such an internal force upon our own soil as would
defeat and destroy any enemy that might gain a landing.
• (Hear.) If that were so, the commission about to be ap-
pointed ought to recommend what amount of internal land
force we ought always to maintain—how many troops of
the Line, how many Militia and how many volunteers we
required so rs to be always in a state of perfect security.
For a nation containing 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 male adults
to be in a perpetual panic of an invasion of 100,000 or
200,000 men was a scandal and a burlesque. (Hear.) We
ought always to be in such a condition that any army that
was likely to obtain a landing would be certain to be de-
feated and destroyed. The commission might make a
valuable report, which would facilitate the proceedings of
the Government in that house, and carry more weight than
any statements on mere departmental authority that might
be made in Committee of Supply. (Cheers.)
Mr. C. FORTESCUE-hoped that the return alluded to
by the right hon. gentleman, which was rather a complicated
one, would be laid on the table on Friday. The noble duke
at the head of the Colonial-office would, he was confident,
give his best consideration to the views expressed by the
right hon. gentleman opposite; but there was another side
to the question, as they had heard from the distinguished
colonist whom they were all glad to see in the house, and
who was a brilliant representative of the true British spirit
of the colonial subjects of this country. (Hear, hear.) He
thought that his right hon. friend (Mr. S. Herbert) had
struck a fair balance between imperial views and the colo-
nial side of the question, which had been so candidly and
temperately stated by the hon. and learned gentleman. It
must be remembered that the Home Government had to
deal with a great number of communities scattered all over
the world, differing in age, in means, resources, in the
liability to attack, and the necessity for defence, and it was,
therefore, impossible to adopt one uniform system in deal-
ing with them all. In many of these cases, too, the Home
Government had not to deal with colonies subject to their
absolute authority, but had to negotiate with Governments
possessing representative institutions and capable of acting
in a great degree independently of the Home Government.
The only mode in which the Imperial Government could
in some cases act was by refusing to send British troops to
particular colonies, or by saying they would withdraw the
troops now there nless the colony paid for their mainte-
nance. That, however, was no light responsibility for a
British Minister to assume.

Lord ELCHO said he was glad to hear the Government
intended to appoint a commission of the kind indicated by
his right lion, friend the Secretary for War • but some doubt
appeared to exist in the house as to le extent of the
powers ,to be conferred upon it. He was in hopes that the
commission contemplated in the motion of his hon. and gal-
lant friend (Sir De L. Evans) had for its object an inquiry
into the whole subject of the national defences—to deter..
mine the number of men, both of the regular army and the
militia, which it was essential we should have in this coun-
try as a permanent force, available at all times ; what was
the number of ships and sailors it was necessary to maintain
as a permanent available naval force ; and what fortifica-
tions were indispensably requisite for the defence of the
kingdom. He thought it desirable that we should not be
any longer liable, as we were now, to a constantly recurring
state of panic, which was fast becoming chronic, and which
was unworthy a great nation. cHear.) We ought, on the
contrary, to be in a position which would render us inde-
pendent alike of the friendship or the enmity of all or any of
the potentates of Europe. (Hear.) That object he conceived
would be better attained by the commission proposed by his
hon. and gallant friend than that contemplated by the Go-
vernment.

Lord H. VANE contended that it was not in the power of
any commission to lay down what should be the exact num-
ber of the troops, artillery, and ships requisite for the proper
defence of the country, inasmuch as the defensive force
ought always to be proportioned to the force of other coun-
tries from time to time, and have regard to the varying state
of European politics. He hoped the commission proposed
by the Government would be so constituted as to carry
weight in the country as well among military men as civi-
lians, and that they would not incur expenditure of a kind
calculated rather to retard the work of national defence than
to carry it out on a satisfactory footing.

Sir DE L. EVANS reminded the louse that the word
"fortification" did not occur in his motion, and contended
that it was totally absurd to think of fortifying the whole of
our coasts.

Lord PALMERSTON said, undoubtedly the object for
which the commission announced by his right hon. friend
(Mr. S. Herbert) would be appointed was one of great im-
portance, but he thought there would bq no advantage in
extending the range of the inquiry so as to embrace a vast
variety of other subjects. He should hope his hon. and
gallant friend (Sir Be Lacy Evans) would be satisfied by
the statement of his right hon. friend the Secretary of State
for War, and would not press his motion to a division, inas-
much as it seemed the object his hon. and gallant friend
had in view would be accomplished by the course proposed
by the Government. With regard to the proposal of his
hon. friend the member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman)—namely,
that the commission should be instructed to take a larger
range of inquiry, and consider what amount of naval and
military force was necessary for the defence of the country
—he (Lord Palmerston) would submit that that was an in-
vestigation of a totally different nature from that contem-
plated by his right hon. friend the Secretary for War. The
object of his right hon. friend's commission would be to as-
certain what permanent works were essential or necessary
for the defence of our different dockyards and arsenals.
That once ascertained, and the necessary works themsehses
constructed, those works would remain as part of the per-
manent defences of the country, and would not vary from
year to year. But the inquiry suggested as to what should
be the amount of our naval and military force was a matter
the determination of which must vary from year to year,
according to the changing circumstances of this country and
foreign countries. lle could, however, assure his hon.
friend the member for Stroud that the subject mooted by him
had already occupied, and would continue to occupy, the
attention of the Government ; and he trusted his hon. friend
would be content with that assurance.

Mr. AYRTON thought.the commission proposed by the
Government would not in the least degree meet the view
contemplated by the motion of his hon. and gallant friend
(Sir De Lacy Evans). From its very, nature it would dead
only with a small part of the great question which his hon.
and gallant friend desired to have submitted to the house.
It involved only engineering investigations connected with
our inland defences, for which our engineers ought to be
qualified. We had been supporting a large body of en-
gineers at a great cost for many years, and now, when it
was proposed that something should be done for which
they ought to be thoroughly qualified, a commission was to
be appointed to supersede them in the discharge of their
functions. (Hear.) The gallant general proposed a com-
mission of inquiry into our whole system, in order to ascer-
tain what should be tho condition of our ordinary defences
in time of peace, so that the people might be able to rest
satisfied that whatever should happen they would be pro-
tected from aggression—(hear, hear)—to ascertain, in short,
what should be the minimum force maintained in time of
peace, and what the nature of that force should be. (Hear,
hear.) Hitherto the army and navy had always been
treated as separate and distinct from each other ; but they
were in fact so clasely connected that the question of the
minimum of the one necessarily affected the other. They
should therefore be treated as one in regard to the main ob-
jects for which they were maintained. (Hear, hear.) Most
important questions were every day raised as to the strength
of our navy, the likelihood of our obtaining a sufficient
supply of men from the commercial marine in case of war
(which could not, he thought, be attempted without de-
ranging commerce to such an extent as to render it imprac-
ticable) and the necessity of having in time of peace a con-
stant r eserve of able-bodied seamen. (Hear.) These were
questions that ought to bo investigated by a commission
like this. In the same way there were many questions con-
nected with the army that called for inquiry, and-these
should also bo intrusted to the consideration of this com-
mission. What was the use of an army in this country if
it was not strong enough to repel invasion, or if, When inva-
sion was threatened, it could not be raised to such a strength
as to render it really effective. (Hear.) That was a question
which everybody asked. There should be an inquiry,
therefore, as to the minimum force that ought to be main-
tained, and into the best means of raising it to a sufficient
numerical strength to repel invasion ; for, unless they had
always at hand such a reserve as would enable them to keep
their army at its full strength, supposing the necessity to
arise for its being brought into active service, it appeared to
him to be perfectly useless. (Hear, hear.) The experience
of the great Napoleon showed how rapidly an army would
be used up when reserves were not to be had. (Hear.) It
was a melancholy thing, after voting so many millions year
by year to maintain the army and navy, to be told so often
that there Was neither an army nor a navy fit for the pur-
poses for which they were intended. (Hear, hear.) If the
expenditure of the
.country had been conducted on a more
wholesome system this state of things could not have ex-
isted ; but, looking at the circumstances in which we were
placed, he thought the investigations of the commissioners
should take a wider range than was proposed by the Go-
vernment. (Heart. hear.)
[lt has lately been the practice to delay the lighting of
the house so long as to cause some inconvenience to the
reporters in the gallery. During the delivery of Mr.
Ayrton's speech the darkness became so great as to render
note-taking a matter of considerable difficulty. This incon
venience, no doubt, arises from inadvertence on the part of
those charged with the lighting department, which a hint
will be sufficient to remedy.]
Mr. HORSMAN was understood to explain that he did
not propose fixing our defensive forces at a rate which
should not vary from year to yaar, but that there should be
a minimum below which they should never be brought.