The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-20 00:00:00

LoNDoN, TuEsDAY EVENING, MARCH 20, 1832.

sideration the state of Ireland, and to destroy the revolu-
tionary measures now in progress in Ireland. That peti-
tion was intimately connected with the one which was
presented the other day from Westmeath, and which was
:ivied by the Lord-Lieutenunt and all but one of the
Magistrates of that county ; he trusted therefore that the
earliest attention of the House would be called to the pre-
sent alarming state of Ireland with a view to suppress the
present revolutionary and alarming state of that country.
Mr. H. GRATTAN was surprised to hear the Re-
corder of Dublin—a Judge of Ireland—accuse the people
of that country of being disloyal. As a Judge he ought
not to have so charged them, fur it waa not the case. If
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would attend in his
place on Thursday, he would find that such was not
the fact ; the Hon. Gentleman would have informed himself
much better of the fact it he had attended regularly in his
place, instead of being elsewhere. He (Mr. Grattan)
pledged himself, that it the Hon. Member attended in his
place on Thursday, that he would give a complete answer
to the calumnies that had been circulated as to the dis-
loyalty of the Irish people. It was wholly unbecoming
in any person to throw such a charge against them. He
had property in no less than ten counties in Ireland, and,
having such an opportunity of knowing the state of Ire-
land, he declared that the charge of disloyalty was wholly
and absolutely unfounded.

Mr. LEFROY said it seemed that the Hon. Gent.
(Mr. Grattan) had a very great objection to the applica-
tion of the term disloyal, as applied to the people of Ire-
land. He had risen merely to state that which was a
matter of notoriety, and which was confirmed by a great
number of magistrates, that there was such a state
of insubordination and outrage against the law in many
parts of that country, that no person's life or property was
safe. As to the state of the county of Westmeath, he
would much rather take the authority of all the Magis-
trates of that county than that of a Member of the House.
The state of Cork bad b,en represented by the petition
now before the House, and which was signed by a great
number of most respectable persons. The result of the
trials in the county of Kilkenny showed the state of that
part of the country. It appeared that his Majesty's
Government had been unable to proceed with the
bills of indictment against certain prisoners ; the
Attorney-General had been obliged to retire in conse-
quence of the system of intimidation which prevailed
there. Whether such conduct was fit to be called
disloyalty or insubordination he would not stop to en-
quire, but the fact was, that it was found impossible
for the judge to proceed with the trials, and
the prisoners were ordered to be detained in custody.
No man considered himself safe, all confidence in the sup-
port of Government was lost, and every thing in that part
of the country was now being Oven up to the domination
of a lawless mob. Under such circumstances he trusted
the attention of Government would be called to the state
of Ireland, and that they would adopt such measures as
would enable parties to carry into execution the laws, and
afford to those who were acting in obedience to the law,
protection for their lives and property.
Colonel ROCHFORD thought that Government was
inclined to favour the species of disturbances which had
been alluded to.
Mr. SHAW stated that as the Hon. Member had
brought the subject before the House he was
ready to adopt his words that many parts of Ireland
were in a state of insubordination and disloyalty. He did
not, however, hold himself accountable to the Hos. Mem-
ber for the manner in which he performed his duties either
in that House or in his judicial capacity.
After a few observations from Mr. H. GRATTAN, the
petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. WEYLAND brought in a Bill to enable Parishes
to allot Lands to the Poor, which was ordered to be read
a second time on the 11th of April.
Captain BARCLAY presented a petition signed by up-
wards of 700 artizans of Cheltenham, praying Govern-
ment to give them the means of emigrating to Canada.
Mr. HODGSON presented petitions from the solicitors
of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead, against the Re-
gistry Bill. The Hon. Member also presented a petition
from South Shields and Weston, praying that they might
be permitted to hold the place assigned to them by the
Reform Bill.

Mr. MONCK presented a petition from the Licensed
Victuallers of the Isle of Wight, praying that they might
not be held responsible for property lost in their houses.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition from Galway, for an
extension of their franchise. In doing so the Honourable
Member took occasion to complain of the non-attendance
of any of his Majesty's Ministers on the presentation of pe-
titions.

Mr. WILKS presented a petition from the Swallow-
street NVidows Friendly Society, against certain parts of
the Friendly Society Act.
Mr. DIXON presented a petition from the President,
Vice-President, and Members of the Political Union of
Glasgow in favour of the Scotch Reform Bill.
Mr. HUNT observed that the Political Union of
Paisley considered themselves grossly deluded by the present

Mr. DUNDAS had no doubt that the members of
Political Unions were in favour of this Bill ; but persons
of property and the whole of the landed interest of the
country were decidedly against it.
Lord MILTON presented a petition from a parish in
York in favour of the Factories' Bill.

Mr. WESTERN presented a petition from the silk
manufacturers of Essex, praying that they might he ex-
empt from the operation of the Factories' Bill. The lion.
Member also presented two other petitions from parishes
in Essex against the Bill.

Mr: DUNDAS moved for a return of all foreign wines
imported during the last year; with the rate of duty.
Mr. DIXON postponed his motion relative to New
South Wales till Friday next.
Mr. HUNT said that as it was past five o'clock, and as
none of his Majesty's Ministers were in the House, and as,
consequently, the House had nothing to do, he should
move au adjournment till Thursday next. He did not
think it was very courteous to the Nouse for none of the
Members of Government to be present during the pre-
sentation of petitions.
Mr. H. HUGHES obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
explain and amend an Act, relative to the passing sentence
of death on convicted felons.

Mr. HUME was sorry to learn that a new series of pro..
secution under the six Acts had been coinmenced. He
wished to know whether his Majesty's Attorney. General
had been apprised of them.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could not deny the
fact, having seen by the public prints that they had been
so far proceeded in. He, however, had not been con-
sulted—such summary prosecutions were left in the
hands of the Commissioners of Stamps.
Mr. C. PELHAM considered it imperative upon Go-
vernment, by every means, to prevent the circulation of
that trash which, in penny publications, was disseminated
to the great detriment of public morals.
Mr. HUNT, seeing the Under Secretary of State in
his place, begged to ask whether a person of the name
of Russell, the gaoler of Huntingdon, had been found
guilty of murder, and if so, what was the cause of delay
of the sentence of execution?

Mr. LAMB said, that same short delay bad unavoidably
taken place, in consequence of some communication which
had passed between that place and the Government.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the individual
referred to had bee❑ found guilty of being accessary
before the act of the murder of a female pri-
soner. Doubts, however, had been entertained whether the
indictment was correctly framed, and a barrister had come
up to town to communicate this fact to the Lord Chan-
cellor and himself. It was in consequence of tbis that
the delay bad taken place.
The order of the day was then read for the resuming of
the adjourned debate on the

REFORM BILL.
Mr. TREVOR rose and said it was not with the
slightest hope of being able to say any thing new on
this subject, or that he should make a single obser-
vation deserving the attention of the House, that he now
wished for a few moments to advert to this measure. He
felt it due, however, to his own convictions, to his con-
stituents, and to those on his side of the House, not
to give his silent vote on such an occasion.—(Hear.)
Those with whom he had acted had manifested
an ability and patriotism which though overwhelmed by
means of the numbers on the other side, would doubt-
less elicit from the reflecting and sober-minded part of
the community, and from every well wisher to the good
order of society, that praise and approbation to Which
they were justly entitled. Although the present measure
differed at present in some measure from its predecessor,
yet it contained equally objectionable provisions, and was

equally dangerous in its tendency. It was not his
design to discuss it in its various parts, nor to
point out those numerous anomalies—its continua]
contradictions to those principles which its promoters
professed, as entitling them to the approbation
of their country—yet he could not but allude to the
anamoly of giving a similar right of franchise to
the great manufacturing towns—to the sections of the
metropolis—the purlieus of Newcastle, and the frequenters
of sea-bathing districts ; he could not pass over the
spoliation of ancient corporate rights, which were sanc-
tioned by law and by justice, merely in conformity to the
spirit of an age which, reckless of every thing that was
just or venerable in principle, and beneficial in operation,
desired, at all hazards, change of any description, provided
it only differed from the existing state of things. Such
was the condition to which this country had
arrived; but admitting for a moment that he had
adopted this view of the subject from prejudice, or
fanciful or imaginary alarm, he would venture to ask
was it probable, was a rational hope to be entertained, that
the measure now before the House was likely to be final, or
rather was it not a stepping-stone to further encroachments?
By this Bill, those who might be the future Members of
this House would not be the representatives of the landed
interests—not the representatives of the gentry of the
country—not even the representatives of the respectable
householders of the various parts sending members to
Parliament, but little better than the delegates of a
mob. (Hear, hear.) The picture was not overdrawn.
Experience has shewn what the effect of popular
agitation was : and recollecting what had passed, it was
impossible to look forward without alarm to the
delegation of such a power to that class of the
comm unity who could not be said to he likely
to make good use of it. To whom was the House in-
debted for this crisis ? To whom was it owing that
they were called upon, from day to day, to account for
not getting on so fast with this measure as their So-
vereign Lords, the mob, approved of? Was the Bill
approved of by the respectable portion of the country? Was
it approved of by the landowners in general ? Cer-
tainly not. Many of the principal Reformers who
admitted the propriety of some change actually
recoiled with alarm at the prospect of what was
before them. Did the petitions which had been pre-
sented from day to day and from place to place not
plainly show what might be expected from a people
goaded on by a licentious and revolutionary Press ?
A Press which had dared not only to dictate to the
Members of this House, but to the Members of the other
House, what the duty was which they ought to pursue
—not only dictated to them their duty, but even threatened
those with the thunder of its vengeance who might not
obey its despotic laws. Had not that revolutionary Press—
he would not call it the fair organ of public
opinion, because that it certainly was not—had
not that revolutionary Press marked out those
Members of either House who were determined to
object to this manner of Reform, as objects of popular
detestation and just indignation? The House under such
circumstances ought to hesitate in delegating so great
a power to such a set of persons who never be:_
fore possessed it, and who never ought to wield it.
The House had been frequently told that the public meet-
ings throughout the country were sufficient proofs
of the general feeling of the people on this
measure. With regard to the late elections, be
denied now, as he had always done, that this
was to be considered a popular Bill. Was it possible
that the public opinion was to be argued to be the
law of the kingdom ? For such he contended to have
been the law of the various public meetings which bad
been held. To attempt to say that any system of human
intitution could be free from fault would be to assert what
was incompatible with the frailties of human nature.
but it was impossible to forget that this country had ar-
rived at a pitch of greatness unparalleled in her
former history before ; and surely it required serious
consideration, for, on the mere visionary view of the mo-
ment, it would be inconsistent with the safety of the country
to abandon that vessel which had weathered so many
storms, for the purpose of embarking in another, which,
to say the least of it, was of an untried and experimental
description. He sincerely concurred with the Hon. Member
for Aldborough, last night, in wishing that he could allow
himself to believe that the consequences of this measure
would be different from what he was persuaded they would be.
He wished he could believe that his apprehensions arose
from prejudice or party feeling. But the more he re-
flected on the measure, the more firmly was he convinced
of the danger that would result from passing it
into a law. He also entirely concurred with that part
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Rye's speech, that
regard being had to the immediate and certain danger of
passing this Bill into law, as compared with the danger of
rejecting it, infinitely the lesser evil would be, and there-
fore the proper remedy to negative the passing of the Bill.
He thought the history of past time sufficiently pointed
out the danger of the course they were about to adopt. If
they looked back to what had occurred in their own coon-
try, they would find that there was scarcely an instance in
which concessions to popular clamour had :answered the
end proposed by thosewho conceded what had been re-
quired.
lie much feared that those Members who looked
to the present Bill as the great panacea of all the evils
which were supposed to oppress the country, would have
to confess their error, and find that the country was fast
approaching to ruin. He conceived it to be the bounden
duty of every individual who bad hitherto voted in the mi-
nority, now that the Bill was in its last stage, honestly and
manfully to declare their opinions. Although he had the
honour of representing a body of men in a large and
important county town, who looked with an eye of favour
to this measure, he felt it his duty to oppose it ; for
though he was favourable to the general principles of Re-
form, he conceived the present Bill to exceed all raiional
bounds. He, therefore, felt himself honestly bound
to state his sentiments. The principles of the present
day protested a continued warfare of beggary against pro-
perty, and the bold and adventurer against the straight
forward and long established Statesman.—(Hear, hear.)
When he reflected on this, he could not but feel
an apprehension for the welfare of the country
or for the institutions. God grant that his fears might
be erroneous. The Government were legislating as if
human nature had arrived at its perfection, and
they were throwing down every barrier of safety with-
out reflecting how they were to check the result.
Those who opposed the Bill would have to reflect that
they bad done the utmost of their power to warn their
country of the precipice on which they were standing. He
admitted that the time was arrived when some change
was necessary, but under the specious pretence of Reform
he would never sanction the course of revolution. Would
(said the Hon. Member) the shades of our departod great
men could break the slumbers of the tomb, would that they
could rise again and be tom all that was passing amongst
us. Words would be wanting to express their astonishment.
He (Mr. Burke) who had exerted himself to warn a neigh-
bouring nation of the revolution into which they were
about to plunge, lived to see his predictions too fatally
realised. Could he now rice amonst us his astonishment
would exceed all hounds to find that we were treading
in the same steps which had proved so fatal. If the re-
sult proved otherwise than be (Mr. Trevor) predicted, he
should be the first to acknowledge his error ; but, on
the most mature consideration, he looked at the pre-
sent measure as the ruin of the property and the
religious establishments of the country; and last, though
not least, the ruin of the Monarchy itself. With
these sentiments he could not but declare his
opposition to the measure, and he would make
that declaration though the consequences were
that to-morrow morning he should lose the confidence of
those who returned hint to that House. He was con-
vinced that Ministers were producing a bloody and as
fearful a RevolUtion as ever blotted the annals of any
country.

_
Mr, SCIIWOUSWAR said, that in the present ex-
hausted state of the subject, he would endeavour to com-
press what he had to say within the least possible com-
pass on the present occasion ; he had more abun-
dant mason to do so than be had on any former one.
But representing, as he did, a large and respectable class
of persons, he should not be doing them justice
without he took this—the last—occasion, to say
a few words. As regarded the dangers whicn Hon.
Gentleman opposite thought would attend the passing
of this Bill, he was of opinion that the danger lay i❑
refusing it, and not in granting it ; that the danger lay
in a rash vote between the great body of the people and the
expression of their anxiety for Reform. It had been said that
the present measure was but the prelude to others. That
was the fault of the Gentlemen on the other side, who, if
they bad brought forward measures of their own, would

(PRICE 713

have enabled ethe country to judge which was the best
But as he believed the overwhelming majority of the pro"
i.le wished for the plan of Reform now before the
House, and considered it a great and substan-
thl relief the House had a riight to assume that
no other satisfactory plan had been proposed for
their acceptance. A greet deal too much importance had
been attached to antiquity. They had been called upon
by every motive of veneration and piety t►► uphold the great
fabric bequeathed to them by their forefathers. Now with
every due respect for the memory of oar forefathers, it was
well known those personages had often repaired such
parts of the Constitution as were found to be necessary.
He confessed that the foundation of the Constitution was
laid by them, but he asked the House to look at the pre-
sent dense population, the increase of ships and co-
lonies, and trade, the highly excitable people of
the present day, in whom were concentrated
the elements of good and evil to an eminent
degree, and then say whether it was not for the House
now to form a mode of legislation like the present,
which, he was sure, was a good one, and which,
he hoped, would be a lasting one. He defied
any man to look at the institutions of former
times, and say they were fitting for the present genera-
tion. As contrasted with former times, a moral and in-
teilectual change had been going on of late with a tenfold
rapid pace. Let the Hon Gentleman opposite (Mr. Trevor)
look at the state of the inhabitants of the town he repre-
sented, as it was twenty years ago, and let him look at it
now. Let him look and contrast the mode of life of its
inhabitants, and their endowments at the two periods, and
let him then say whether the institutions of our forefathers
were fit for the present highly cultivated people. It ap-
peared to him that the present Bill had been wisely and well
framed upon a due consideration of the wants of the
people. It was, perhaps, not perfect, and, indeed, what
institution was so ? But it was calculated to last
for many years. It opened wide the doors of the Con-
stitution to all who chose to enter therein, and it
gave to a highly civilized people their political wants.
The Bill had been scrutinized in all parts of the empire,
and he was surprised new to hear Hon. Gentlemen say
that it hail not the support of the country. Let them
look at the last elections by large constituencies, and that
would shew them bow eager the people were for the
Bill. Indeed, very few representatives for large places
had ventured to oppose it. That it would easily pass
through that House he could not doubt.—(Hear,
hear.) With respect to its probable fate elsewhere,
be looked forward with hope but not with despair.
Whether it would be then rejected, or whether it would be
crippled or mangled, which would be as bad as rejecting it,
he could not tell, but if such a calamity should
occur they must look for danger ; he did not
look for any very dreadful consequences, because he had a
great reliance on the good sense of the people; but
there would be probably a loss of confidence between the
governors and the governed. He would not trust himself
with hazarding any opinion upon such a possible case.
He hail the most implicit confidence in the &aloess of
his Majesty's Ministers, and he trusted that they would
not desert the helm in the hour of danger, but that they
would bring that great healing measure to a speedy, happy,
and honourable termination.

Sir J. BRIDGES was convinced Ministers would
not charge gentlemen on that sine the House with
having been the means of creating useless delay. That
there had been delay he admitted, but the reason was the
complicated and contradictory nature of the Bill, which had
not its parallel in the annals of Parliament. If the
Gentlemen on that side of the House bad been the
cause of delay, the Noble Lord opposite, instead of
blaming, ought to be grateful to them for it, as they had
profited greatly by the amendments proposed and acceeded
to. The Bill was so full of anomalies, that he did
not hesitate to say its promises were more glazing
and ridiculous than any that existed under the
present system of representation. He felt convinced
that such a Bill could never produce a fair and
equal representation in Parliament What it might
produce, he would not pretend to say. But he con-
sidered it fraught with danger and difficulty.—(Hear,
hear.) He, however, I did not Hatter himself that
the present Bill would be rejected by that House. But
he trusted that the House of Lords would not
stultify themselves with respect to this Bill, but
regardless of clamour, reject it, as they had already
done the former one. If the present measure passed
the sun of England would be set forever. Such being his
opinion, he should give his decided opposition to the
measure, and support the amendment of the Noble Lord.
Mr. BEAUMONT rose to advocate the third reading
of the Bill, and was

(LEFT SPEAKING.)