The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-13 00:00:00

TILE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, MARCH 13, 1535.

and Learned Member for Dublin to Sir H. Vivian, in which
the Hon. and Learned Member praised the conduct of the
military at Youghal as having been admirable. As proof, too,
of the good effects of employing that force, he begged to call
the attention of the House to this fact—that, in 1832, troops
were not employed, and in Carlow fourteen men were actually
killed ; in 1834 they were employed, and there was only one
man killed, and that was in Meath.
Mr. O'CONNELL could not complain of the conduct of
the military, but their conduct reflected -no credit on the ma-
gistracy, but on the gentlemen of the army and the good feel-
ing of the soldiers themselves. In the letter alluded to by the
Hon. and Gallant Officer, he did not, as was supposed, ex-
press so much satisfaction at the conduct of the military in
itself, as he did a preference to it when compared with that of
the police. It had been stated that, in 1831, murders had taken
place, and that, in 1834, there were none—
Colonel PE RCEVAL--One only.
Mr. O'CONNELL--One only, and that was in the county
remarkable for its brotherly love. There were none killed in
the southern counties.

Sir HENRY HARDINGE was understood to say, that
there had been one in Sligo, and two in Dungarvan. The
military always acted according to the direction of the Sheriffs
and Returning officers ; and the Government, if applied to,
were bound to obey the request of civil officers, and supply the

troops demanded.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL bore testimony to the advantage
derived from the presence of the military at elections in Ire-
land, at the same time that he felt bound on all occasions to

object to their introduction, as unconstitutional.
Colonel BRUEN, as representative of a large county
(Carlow), could not let the opportunity pass of adding his
testimony to that already borne to the efficiency and good con-
duct of the military ; and also to the particular necessity
which existed almost always in Ireland for their presence at
elections, but more especially at the last election in that king-

_
dom.—( Cheers. )
Mr. H. GRATTAN begged also to add his meed of praise
to that which had already been bestowed on the military.
Their conduct, contrasted with that of the police, was decid

edly in their favour.
Colonel EVANS said that he had been in Carlow at the

late election for that borough, and on that occasion ho had
seen a display of military, horse and foot, which would have
led him to suppose the town was in danger of destruction. Yet
he did not perceive the least appearance of excitement among
the people, or even anything like a crowd, to warrant such a
display of armed force. In England elections partook of the
nature of a solemn civil ceremony. In Ireland, on the con-

trary, they appeared to partake of a military character. In Eng.
land the military never appeared at elections without the mos
absolute necessity existed ; in Ireland they were called out and
paraded in all places before any necessity was even thought of.
With respect to the question at issue—the conduct of the Ma-
gistracy—he thought the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland
had gone beyond his duty in declaring his belief in their inno-
cence. It was like prejudging the question, and could not
but have its effect in prejudicing the course of justice. He
trusted, however, that the Committee would give the whole
subject the fullest investigation.
Sir H. HARDINGE rose to reply.
The SPEAKER, however, decided that he was out of or-
der in speaking twice in the same debate. He could not per-
mit him to proceed, however anxious he might be to do so, or
ha vever important he might deem it, without premising that
he did it upon sufferance. This he was compelled to do for
fear of establishing a precedent which would be adduced on all
future occasions by other Hon. Members.
Sir H. HARDINGE bowed to the decision of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, which he admitted to be both just and ne-
cessary. It was, in his opinion, most improper to anticipate a
debate on papers granted by the Government, but which had
not as yet been produced.
Mr. MULLINS replied.
Sir H. HARDINGE gave notice that when those papers
were laid on the table of the House, he should move that they
be referred to the Committee.
Mr. BARRON knew of a great many cases where the
Magistrates had acted most grossly and unjustly, first in call-
ing out the military, and then in using them.
The motion was then agreed to.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose, pursuant to notice,
to bring forward his Bill for the better administration of jus-
tice in the Ecclesiastical Courts, founded upon a report of the
Ecclesiastical Commission, which, as we understood him, he
meant to follow up with another on reform in Ecclesiastical
Discipline. The object he had in view by the Bill for the in-
troduction of which he begged leave to move, was the con-
solidation of some three or four hundred various ecclesiastical
tribunals, dispersed all over the country, into one Court ;
which was to hold its sittings in London or anywhere else
his Majesty, in his gracious pleasure, might see fit to appoint.
—( Hear, hear.) It was intended to give this consolidated
Court a greater degree of ecclesiastical power than was
possessed by any of the Ecclesiastical Courts singly at
present, in order that its jurisdiction in some things might
be extended to a point to which the jurisdiction of none
of the existent Courts reached, while it was also intended
to remove from its jurisdiction many matters now taken
cognizance of by its authority. It was proposed to abolish
the Court of Appeal in ecclesiastical causes, and to transfer
its jurisdiction to the Privy Council.--( Cries of " Hear,
hear.") The effect of these alterations would be to bring
into one complete system, and under one distinct arrangement,
a variety of most important urisdictiens at present exercised
in point of practice by noless than eight or ten superior
Courts and three or four hundred inferior tribunals.—( Hear.)
Before he should go farther he deemed it right to state to the
House the origin of the measure he was about to propose to
their consideration, as well as the share he had in their produc-
tion. In 1830 a Commission was appointed for the purpose
of inquiring into and investigating ecclesiastical matters. In
July of the same year the Commission was renewed. In two
years subsequent they made their report. Never did he in
his professional or parliamentary experience peruse a docu-
ment so fraught with learning and research, or one which con-
tained a greater number of most valuable facts, or a greater
quantity of important information. And it was but justice to
add that he believed the principal part of its composition was
due to the Honourable and Learned Member for the Tower
Hamlets.—( Hear.) On the valuable information and sug-
gestions contained in that report, a Bill had been prepared
last year, which Bill had received the sanction of all those in-
dividuals whose opinions were of importance. Among them
was the Honourable and Learned Member for the Tower
Hamlets, who had always expressed his great anxiety for its
advancement, notwithstanding he (the Attorney-General) had
no hesitation in saying that it might be professionally inju-
rious to him. On that Bill was the present Bill based ;
indeed both were identical. It embraced a great variety
of provisions, but lie should only call the attention of the
House to two of them. The first was that which related to
the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastioal Courts; the second re.
lated to the discipline of the Clergy, and in calling the atten-
tion of the House exclusively to these, he did not wish to be
understood that the others were of no importance. On the
contrary, every provision in it was important to the commu-
nity, but he selected these as being of paramount importance.
With respect to the consolidation of the present Ecclesiastical
Courts, he was sure the House would bear him out when he
designated it as an advantage to the country.—( Hear.) It
was utterly impossible that in three or four hundred tri-
bunals there should not be various and contradictory de-
cisions; and that. Archdeacons acting as judges in one, procters
in another, and manorial officers in a third, should not give
rise to inextricable confusion in the administration of the law,
and in many instances lead to a denial of justice.—(Hear.)
His Bill proposed, as he had already said, to consolidate these,
and thus to prevent these Courts from entertaining contentious
jurisdictions. It proposed to limit the jurisdiction of the new
Court to matters purely ecclesiastical, and to transfer, to this
effect, matters without that definition to the Law Courts ; or,
in case the Law Courts could not entertain them, to leave
them to be judged by manners and morals. Testamentary
cases would be, continued in the new Court as before, while
offences pertaining to clerical discipline would be dealt with
by a separate tribunal. A class of cases cognizable at present
by the Ecclesiastical Courts would also be taken out of its
jurisdiction, such, for instance, as defamation, brawling in a
church or church-yard, laying violent hands on the person
under certain circumstances, and other cases of that nature,
which he felt bound to say rather tended to deface than to
recommend their proceedings. Defamation he should propose
to leave to the ordinary course of common law, and brawl-
ing, or laying violent hands on the person in a church or
churchyard, might be treated in the Courts of Law as an
aggravated assault. The cognizance of all offences except
those which created a nullity of marriage was to be removed
from the jurisdiction of the new Court. These were the prin-
cipal objects of the Bill he wished to introduce to the notice of
the House. With respect to its other parts there was one to
which he would beg to call attention. It was the power which
the Bill intended to confer on the Judge of the Court of
granting issue on a fact, in order that a disputed question
might be tried by the constitutional form peculiar to this
country—a Jury. An appeal would lie, as he had before
observed, from the judgment of the Court to the Privy Coun-
cil, which would have the effect of satisfying the public mind.
There could be no doubt that a Court of Appeal was neces-
sary, for unless some mode of revising decisions made in haste
or error existed, the public could never be fully satisfied. The
Ecclesiastical Courts had to deal with most weighty and im-
portant subjects; a great portion of the wealth of the kingdom
passed through their jurisdiction. Everything connected with
testamentary :declarations came under their cognisance. It
was therefore necessary that this Court should have the power
of employing that important machine, the trial by Jury—
( Hear)—and be likewise purified from all inquiry into these
trivial matters which had the effect of deforming its proceed-
ings, and making ridiculous its decisions. One of the most
prominent features of this measure was, that this Court was to
be constituted in the future a King's Court ; and not the
Court of any Archbishop or Bishop. The Judge would be
appointed the same as the other Judges of the land; hold his
situation on the same tenure, and have the same rank and pri-
vileges as the others of his Majesty's Judges. These were the
principal points in the Bill which he should humbly move for
leave to introduce to the House, in accordance with the spirit
of his Majesty's most gracious Speech from the throne at the
opening of the present session of Parliament. He (the At-
torney-General) in pursuance of the duty pointed out to him
by the passage he alluded to, had not delayed in preparing the
measure, and he now brougLt it under the notice of the House
in the fulfilment of that duty. He had availed himself of the
labours of the Commission in framing it, which he was sure the
House would deem an advantage to the measure. He was at all
times ready and willing to support any measure of improvement
or R9form, emanate from whatever si,de of the House it might—
( Hear)—and he could conscientiously cay, that there was no
Hon. Member in that House, and no individual in the com-
munity, lay or clerical, who was more anxiotze to further real
substantial improvements in the law and institutions of the
country.—( Hear.) .

Dr. L SHINGTON said that there was d portlses of the
report of the Commissioners which, if not adopted in the Bill
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, or made the subject of
a distinct measure, would defeat all that the Bill before the
H ouse proposed to do. It was that part of the report which
contained the recommendation of the Commissioners to
abolish all the sinecure offices so numerous in connection
with the Ecclesiastical Courts. Not less than sixty thousand
pounds were divided in this way between the proteges of
Bishops and Archbishops. Unless that source of patronage
was lopped off the measure would give no satisfaction to the
country. One of the highest ecclesiastical personages in the
kingdom, the Archbishop of Canterbury, had, on his (Dr.
Lushington's) proposition as a Member of that Commission,
relinquished at once patronage enjoyed by himself and his pre-
decessors to the extent of 10,0001. a-year, on which occasion he
said to him (Dr. Lushington) within the short space of ten
minutes from the moment the proposition was made—" It is so
proper and just that I cannot hesitate an instant." In the
same spirit every individual of the Right Rev. Bench forming
a portion of the Commission relinquished his patronage for
the public good. He (Dr. Lushington) hoped that the same
spirit would actuate the House when they came to consider the
details of the Bill, and that they would unhesitatingly remove
these overflowing sources of obloquy and public complaint.
With respect to the measure of the Attorney-General, he (Dr.
Lushington) felt bound to say such was his sense of its impera-
tive necessity that he was only restrained from introducing one
of the same nature by a knowledge of the fact that it would
come with greater weight from the Government, and be more
operative in its general effects on the Legislature. The pre-
ceding Government were undoubtedly very anxious about the
matter ; but they had not had time to mature it sufficiently.
No blame could, therefore, attach to them for having de-
layed the production of a measure analagous to the present.
So long ago as May last he was compelled, without any op-
tion, to send to gaol an unfortunate individual convicted of
defamation. He had no option ; but in the discharge of his
duty upon his solemn oath he sent the man there, and there he
was et present, and there he might remain, for ho knew not
of any law by which he could be released. This was only one
of many instances which illustrated the worst species of trials
for defamation. He could not but attribute guilt to the legis-
lature for not having at an earlier period instituted inquiries
into this subject, and for not haying relieved Judges of a
duty s o odious. The object of the report most especially
was, the entire extinction of what used to be called the cri-
minal jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts; that was to say,
that hereafter no Ecclesiastical Court should exercise the
power of punishing any person upon a criminal process. Ano-
ther branch of the jurisdiction of the Court was that exercised
over clergymen. This ought likewise to be taken away, and
yet it was impossible that such a power of supervision should
be extinct, and it therefore ought to be transferred to another
jurisdiction, for which a separate bill would provide, accord-
ing to the recommendation of the Commission. This Court
would take cognizance of all offences committed by
clergymen in the neglect of the discharge of their
duty; but it would not, in the slightest degree, inter-
fere with the present jurisdiction of the Courts of Com-
mon Law in any other offences that the Clergy might com-
mit. The instituting of this new Court would be for the
purpose of establishing a fair, impartial, and not expensive
tribunal, for the purpose of correcting in time all impro-
prieties and neglects in the ministers of religion, and of cor-
recting them, not at a period when public scandal had been
so excited, that the Bishops themselves, as had been the case
in many instances, had been compelled to take the duty of
correction upon them, and at their own expense. The esta-
blishment of this jurisdiction would confirm more strongly the
affections which still remained in the people of this country
for the Established Church. All that would remain for the
present Ecclesiastical Courts to perform after the present Bill
should have passed would be the determination upon matrimo-
nial and testamentary causes. These were causes unquestion-
ably of very great importance, and no man who sat in that
House, or who was not in that House, could feel but the
deepest interest in the reform of the Courts which had to ad-
minister justice in such cases. Independent of the importance
attached to the separation of husband and wife, the question
of nullity of marriage involved the question of legitimacy,
and the question of legitimacy involved the rights of property
to an immense amount. With respect to testamentary causes
in his humble judgment if the House did its duty to the public
there ought not to remain any difference of law with respect to
decisions upon the devising of real and personal property.
He never had been satisfied that it was for the interest of the
public that the disposing of real and personal property should
be tried by a jury in one case, and by another species of tribu-
nal in another. The expenses of another trial were not jus-
tified. The measure now introduced, when it came to be duly
considered, would make every man of opinion that a more im-
portant Bill of Reform had never yet been suggested to the
House. It was a measure which every Member would find to
involve his own interests, and he cordially thanked his Hon.
and Learned Friend, his Majesty's Attorney-General, for hav-
ing availed himself of the earliest opportunity of bringing the
measure forward.
Sir J. CAMPBELL rose to express his entire concurrence
in the views taken of the subject by his Majesty's Attorney-
General and by his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for
the Tower Hamlets. The moment the report of the Corn-
Mission had been presented he had read it with the utmost ad-
miration. The public were deeply indebted to the Hon, and
Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets, and very great cre-
dit was due to the Right Rev. Prelates the Archbishops of
Canterbury and York, and the Bishops of London and Dur-
ham, and the other members of the Right Rev. Bench, who
had concurred upon the Commission in recommending the
the Reform of all the abuses which had so disgraced the law
of England, and who for this object had voluntarily consented
to part with very valuable patronage. All the parts of the
bill which he had read met with his concurrence. The crimi-
nal jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts ought long ago to
have been abolished. He was glad that the bill would abolish
between three and four hundred Ecclesiastical and Local
Courts, for these were courts purely mishievous. They
created great expense, and greater confusion. His Hon. and
Learned Friend had said that he intended to bring forward a
measure for the administration of local justice throughout the
country. He would beseech him not to abolish the jurisdiction
of the Diocesan Courts. Let all the Peculiar and Manorial
Courts be abolished ; but it would facilitate the business
of the country if the probate of wills were to be allowed
to remain with the Diocesan Courts. It was possible
to centralize too much—to bring proceedings too much to
London; and there would be an inconsistency in his Learned
and Hon. Friend the Attorney-General bringing in two Bills,
the one to create local courts for the trial of civil causes, and
another for sweeping away all local courts which took cogni-
zance of ecclesiastical cases. His Hon. and Learned Friend
would find that in this particular he would give umbrage to
the country solicitors, a very powerful body, who would be
sending numerous petitions on the subject to that House, and
who would be able to induce many country gentlemen to vote
against the reforms altogether. There was a manifest hard-
ship in compelling persons from distant parts to come to Lon-
don to prove a will. Another point was, whether the Su-
preme Courts ought not to have the power of dissolving mar-
riages ? Dissolutions of marriage ought to be tried before
ecclesiastical jurisdictions, and not before the Legislature. It
was a disgrace to the House of Commons, and to the House
of Lords, and to the whole country, that whilst marriages by
the law of the land were indissoluble, they could be dissolved
by prerogative.
Dr. NIC HOLL was convinced that the country could
not be satisfied if the decisions of such important cases as
matrimonial divorces should be left to the decision of one
single Judge. He would rather that such decisions should be
left to a Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which was
a very important tribunal.—( Hear.) He was attached by
early prepossessions to the Courts of Doctors' Commons, and
he could not bring himself to consider the decision of one
single Judge in such cases as satisfactory. With respect to
the Diocesan Courts, he was sure the Hon. and Learned
Member for the Tower Hamlets would bear him out in saying
that the maintenance of those Courts would be perfectly im-
practicable if the present Bill were to pass.
Mr. PR YME bore testimony to the evils of the present
system. He had himself seen in the gaol of Nottingham two
women who had been confined there twenty years, because by
a mistake, and from conscientious motives, they had had their
marriages celebrated not strictly according to law. He con-
ceived that the present bill went to abolish Courts which
ought only to be reformed.
Mr. C. FERGUSON having been on the Commission,
could bear testimony to the great zeal which the clergy had
evinced to reform all abuses, without regard to their own inte-
rests, or to the loss of their patronage. He conceived the
progress of divorce bills through the Houses of Parliament to
have been a disgrace to the country.
Sir R. PEEL rose, and spoke as follows :—Mr. Speaker,
I trust that this House will receive the present measure as
the first practical fulfilment of the pledges given in his Ma-
jesty's Speech from the Throne, that his Majesty's Ministers
were desirous of introducing into the administration of the
law the most substantial reforms, and of redressing every
grievance of which just complaint can be made.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) Ido hope, at the same time, that the prognosti-
cation of the nature of this reform will convince the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, that it was not necessary to hold over
his Majesty's Ministers the menace of limited supplies.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. Member will see in the strong
and uniform testimony born to the efficacy of this reform, a
rguarantee o o f
reforms th e ini tne ngt
ei onn of e r
al. his
Sir,Majesty's
this
ef
rMmi n
ns t er with
the
s Ec-
clesiastical Courts throughout the kingdom is founded on
the report of a Commission of Inquiry established upon
the advice given by his Grace the Duke of Wellington
to the Crown. Nothing, Sir, can be further from my inten-
tion than to claim for his Majesty's Ministers the exclusive
merit of this Reform. Few things are more honourable to
party connections in this country than the manifestation on the
part of public men of a willingness to co-operate in measures
of Reform that are complete and well calculated to promote
the public welfare. The Hon. and Learned Member who has
spoken last has, with a modesty and forbearance most credita-
ble to himself, concealed the fact that he was one whose co-
operation had been of such signal utility to the inquiries of the
Commission. The Hon. and Learned Member for the Tower
Hamlets, notwithstanding his total alienation from that poli-
tical party by which this Commission was instituted, was not
unwilling to tender his gratuitous and invaluable services to
forward all the purposes of the Commission, I do, Sir, say
that such conduct redounds much to the honour of the Hon.
and Learned Member, and that it redounds generally
to the honour of Gentlemen who, notwithstanding all their
differences in party politics from the Government of the day,
were the first to tender their services to perfect the laws of
the country. A grateful testimony has likewise been borne to
the dignified Ecclesiastics and to- the Clergy throughout the
country, who were willing to sacrifice their private patronage,
and to cast aside all personal interests, in order to benefit
the country by promoting the objects of the Commission.
I find this conduct has been invariable on the part of the

Right Reverend Prelates, notwithstanding the attacks that I
hate been made on them in other quarters. Yes, Sir,
uniformly hate they evinced the same disposition to
sacrifice every private consideration, in order to further
the progress of useful Reform. As soon as his Majesty's
Commission was establithed the first otter made by every
member of that Commission, whether Ecclesiastical or
lay, was to suspend every appointment to ecclesiastical pre-
ferments which had not attached to them a cure of souls, until
the report of the Commissioners should decide upon the utility
or inutility of filling up the places. Such, Sir, has been the
conduct of the Archbishop of Canterbury, of the Archbishop
of York, of the Bishops of London, of Lincoln, of Gloucester,
and of the Lord Chancellor. All signified to the Commis-
sion that not one of them would make any appointment to any
ecclesiastical preferment whatever, till the circumstance of the
preferment had undergone the consideration of the Commis-
sion, and until it had been determined in what manner the
preferment could be made most beneficial to thew n
of
the Church.—( Hear, hear.) With respect, Sir, to the par-
ticular measure before the House, I go further—yes, Sir, much
further, than some of those Hon. Gentlemen who claim to
themselves the title of Reformers. The Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Cambridge advises that the Local Ecclesiastical
Courts should be continued in existence, while the whole
object of the present Bill is to put an end to these Local
Courts.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Another Honourable and
Learned Member ( Sir J. Campbell) has said that the Dio-
cesan Courts should be continued, lest the country attorneys
might petition the house, and oppose the Bill through the
medium of country gentlemen, whom they may be able to
influence. Why, Sir, lam a greater Reformer than even his
Majesty's late Attorney-General. If, Sir, the local juris-
diction be good, maintain it ; if bad, for God's sake, don't
let us permit local attorneys, for their private and personal
interests, to obstruct the course of Reform. If the. coun-
try attorneys have any vested rights, any vested interests,
in the maintenance of these Courts, let us compensate
them ; but if it be useful, if it be for the benefit
of the country at large that central Courts shall be established,
and that local Courts be abolished, what grounds have country
solicitors to obstruct the course of Reform ? I know, Sir, that the
country solicitors are a powerful body, but if the present mea-
sure be right, if centralization be more advantageous to the
country than the continuance of local jurisdictions, I see no
earthly reason why the power of the country solicitors should
impede the progress of Reform. lam one of those who think
that the jurisdiction of Parliament ought to be trusted and
relied upon. Most undoubtedly no one can witness with any
degree of satisfaction the examination of witnesses at the bar
of this House on occasions of such a nature ; but still I think
that such a proceeding is not without an indirect effect upon the
public mind and morals. lam not of opinion that an easy mode
of obtaining divorce would be attended with much advantage,
nor am I that great admirer of the Scotch system in this re-
spect that some Hon. Members profess to be. I very much
doubt, indeed, that it would be at all for the public benefit that
local Courts should have the jurisdiction of granting divorce
a mensa a thoro. Such facilities would not be unlikely to lead
to much collusion, particularly where females were concerned.
The greatest confidence should exist in any tribnnal possessing
a jurisdiction of this nature, and too much care cannot be
taken in the establishment of such a Court. I should be
doing great injustice to Sir John Nichol' and Sir Herbert
Jenner if I did not take this occasion to acknowledge the
prompt, willing, and efficient assistance I derived from those
learned and distinguished civilians, as Members of the
Commission, voluntarily tendered immediately on my
return from abroad, and my appointment to office. Am I not
then justified in saying that where effectual Reform is seen to
be necessary, there is no indisposition in the highest authorities
of the country to give them both assistance towards so desir
able an end.—(Cheers.) I entirely agree, and soon did
agree, with those who feel that there never can be a perfect
system of law reform established, until all judicial sinecures
shall have been destroyed.---(Cheers.) In any measure in-
tended to be effective, provision must be made to abolish judi-
cial sinecures.—( Cheers.) I myself introduced a Bill to
destroy those abuses, and I believe with no little success and
benefit ; but if any still remain uncorrected I will give my
support to any Bill, the object of which may be to render as
pure as possible every thing connected with the administration
of justice.—( Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. PR YME, in explanation,
Mr. HUME said that having been personally alluded to by
the Right Hon. Baronet, he must say a few words upon this
occasion. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to imagine that
he (Mr. Hume) had altered his determination as to the notice
of motion he had given for to-morrow night, in consequence of
the measures of reform which the Right Hon. Baronet in-
tended to bring forward. Now he could assure the Right
Hon. Baronet that he was not at all influenced by any such
consideration. He had always looked upon the Right Hon.
Baronet as a plain, straight-forward man, but on the present
occasion, in this his first measure of Reform, what had he
done? Why, he had only crept into the nest of the old Ad-
ministration, and was hatching their eggs.--(Laughter.)
The Right Hon. Baronet took credit for this incubation,
although he had sat but a very short time. Why, the Right
Hon. Baronet found this very Bill already prepared by the late
Government when he came into office, and all the credit due
to him was for not putting an end to it. He really had not
before thought that the Right Hon. Baronet was a man who
would claim credit for what did not belting to him. The
Right Hon. Baronet found this Bill cut and dry when he came
into office, and had not the late Government been so suddenly
removed from power, this was the very first measure they in-
tended to propose in the present session. The Right Hon.
Baronet had said that the credit of the Commission was dtie to
the Duke of Wellington and his Government, but he (Mr.
Hume) took all the credit of that Commission to himself.—
( Laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh ; but it was never-
theless true. When a pension was proposed to be given to
the son of the late Speaker, who held an office connected with
the Ecclesiastical Courts, he divided the House seven times
against it.—( Laughter.) This was what opened the eyes of
the Government to the existing abuses, and yet the Right Hon.
Baronet took all the credit to the Duke of Wellington and
himself. He objected to the principle of centralization. The
people of Scotland had good local Courts, and why might not
the people of England? Was it not very easy to abolish bad
local Courts and establish good ones in their stead ? The
Right Hon. Baronet need not flatter himself that it was this
or any other measure of his that induced him (Mr. Hume) to
change his purpose as to the notice of motion he had given.
This was a most barefaced bold assumption of the Right Hon.
Baronet.—( A laugh.) He would beg to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet if he intended to carry out the plan for the establish-
ment of local Courts designed by the late Government, so as
to bring cheap and speedy justice home to every man's door?
Sir R. PE E L.—l have been asked a question, whether I
intend to propose any measure for the establishment of local
Courts to facilitate the administration of justice? I answer that
there will be a Bill introduced for that purpose, and the Hon.
Member will then have an opportunity of making any propo-
sition he pleases as to the jurisdiction of those Courts. I never
denied that the present Bill had been prepared by the late Go-
vernment, but what I said was, that the Commission from
which this measure emanated originated with the Duke of
Wellington's Government. Surely there can be no great
merit in the mere act of drawing out the Bill, and putting
into clauses the report of the Commission. The Hon. Gen-
tleman has alluded to the process of incubation, but there are
other persons who have eggs to hatch. The Hon. Gentleman
laid an egg the other night, but it now appears that he can
neither hatch it himself, nor get any one else to hatch it.—( Im-
mense laughter.) The egg has been laid a week, and last
night the Hon. Gentleman said that he would either hatch it
himself or get some friendly hen to do so—( Great laughter)
—but it turns out that neither himself nor any one else will
undertake the process.—( Laughter.) Now, Ido not think it
impossible that in this reluctance to incubation may have arisen a
perusal of the Motion Book, and seeing the measures of Reform
that are intended to be brought forward.---( Loud cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the Right Hon. Baronet ought
not to count his chickens before they were hatched.—( A laugh. )
The Right Hon. Baronet might find the Hon. Member for
Middlesex a good fighting cock yet--(Laughter)—but the
proper time to crow was when the victory was gained. But
to speak seriously, on a measure of so much importance as
this, there ought to be no party feeling, or party triumph, or
party vapouring on such an occasion. The present Bill, and
many other measures of Law Reform, would have become law
before this, had it not been for the late dissolution of Parlia-
ment. It was, therefore, an empty boast of the Right Hon.
Baronet to take any credit to himself or his party for this Bill.
But they were now told that even the Bishops had become
Reformers. What, then, had their predecessors been about
all their lives, that they could not see any occasion for Re-
form ? He should like to know if the Right Hon. Baronet
was disposed to abolish ecclesiastical sinecures as well as ju-
dicial sinecures? He feared not; at least, lie was sure they
would exist in Ireland as long as the present Administration
lasted. This Bill was calculated to lop off only the branches,
while it left the trunk untouched. To simplify the law, and
make it effective for its purpose, those Ecclesiastical Courts
must be got rid of altogether. With respect to marriage, he
was of opinion that that was a tie which ought not to be dis-
solved at all ; but allowing, for argument's sake, that it was
advisable, ought not the facility to be as great for the poor
man as for the rich ? And was it not notorious that it was
only the rich man who could accomplish such a separation,
' owing to the enormous expense. Why should there not be
the same law in this respect here as in Scotland.
After a few words in explanation from Dr. NICHOLL and
Mr. HUME,
Mr. SCARLETT had always understood there were two
branches of justice, one judicial and the other Ministerial.
The Assizes he looked upon to be the local administration of
justice, but to have good judicial justice it never could be
cheap. He did not say that this ought to be confined to Lon-
don. Ile thought that it might be better calculated to afford
protection if it were brought nearer to the homes of the parties.
Colonel PARRY was delighted to see all parties join with
so much unanimity in forwarding measures of Reform for the
benefit of the country, and not the least who deserved the
thanks and gratitude of their country were the Bishops, for
the readiness with which they came forward to give up their
patronage.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in reply, said the Court
would be presided over by a Bishop, who would be always
assisted by a legal assessor, and in all cases after the regular
progress of the case through the Court, judgment would be
followed by speedy execution. The Commission, as he had
before said, issued in 1630, but the report was not made until
1832. He did not blame the Government for the delay in
bringing any measure on that report. He was far from cast-
ing any imputation, for he thought that it mattered little from
what side of the House such a measure proceeded, so long as
it did proceed, and was it ell and maturely considered.—( Hear,
hear.) He was anxious in affording information to the House
upon this Bill—to give praise where it was justly due. He
was ready to commend the late Government for preparing
the Bill, and the present Government for giving instant at-
tention to it. He distinctly mentioned the fact that it had

been prepared last session. He only claimed for himself and
for the Government with it'fri.eh he had the honour of acting, a
readiness to take up and forward *,ay measure of improvement,

from whatever quarter it might conic..
Sir J. CAMPBELL said his Hon. and Learned Friend
claimed no praise which did not justly belong to him. The
Bill was ready last session, and would have been brought
forward, but for the many other important measures that were
then before the House. He was taunted last session by the
Right Hon, Baronet for the number of Bills he then had be-
fore the House, without bringing any of them to a conclusion.
He feared he might have still further incurred such a censure
by adding this to the number.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—AII I claimed for the present
Government was that no obstruction or delay was thrown in
the way of this Bill, and that it was brought forward thus

early.
Mr. HUME meant no comparison between this Govern-
ment and the last. All he meant was to pluck a feather Or
two from the plume of the Right Hon. Baronet, to which he
had no right. There was some pleasure in bringing people
He a
peg lower—( A laugh)—when they arrogated too much.
hoped, however, he gave no offence.
Dr. LUSHINGTON said the Bill was delayed in conse-
quence of the time of the House being occupied in discussions
upon the question of reform. It was no easy matter to pre'
pare it. The task was given up in despair by one gentleman.
It was ready last session ; he was consulted upon it in the
Easter of that session by Lord Althorp, but as the Tithe ques-
tion and others of importance were to have been brought on,
he despaired of being able to get through with it.
Sir R. PEEL-1 believe the late Chief Justice of the Ad-
miralty was at the greatest pains in preparing the Bills.
Dr. LUSHINGTON—He certainly presided at the Com-
mission, and paid the greatest attention to the subject.
Sir J. CAMPBELL said the Bills were certainly preParea
in his office.

In answer to a question from Mr. BULLER,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the second reading
would not be later than two or three weeks hence.
The Bill was then read a first time.
On the motion of Mr. WALLACE, various returns wer
ordered of the names, incomes, &c. &c., of postmasters and
postmistresses in Great Britain and Ireland during the last
five years.
On the motion of Mr. SULLIVAN various returns were
ordered, connected with county treasurers in Ireland.

EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Mr. A. JOHNSON rose to move for returns respecting
Natirnal Education`2( Ireland), in pursuance of an order of the
13th May, 1834 ; and, in addition, a list of all such books ee
are distributed or used under the direction of the Board, With
the full titles thereof ; and a list of the schools in which the
whole or any of such books are used as class-books ; also
returns of the number of Roman Catholic children, of chil-
dren of the Church of England and Ireland, and of Protestant
children of other denominations in each of the schools under
the superintendence of the Board ; and that the Commis'
sioners state the amount and particulars of any grants made by
them to schools connected with or under the superintendence
of any nunnery, monastery, or other religious institutions er
houses ; and also of any grants to schools kept in Roman Ca-
tholic chapels, or buildings forming part thereof, or contiguous
thereto, or within the precincts of the said chapels, with the
places where such schools are situated. He understood that
some objection was entertained against the use of the expres-
sion Roman Catholic in this motion. It was not his wish to
disparage any religious persuasion. Some peculiar taus'
however, must be used to designate each.
Mr. BARRON objected to the making of any such dig,'
tinction, because it was contrary to the principle upon which
the system of National Education introduced by the late
wi Ge-
vernment had been founded. In the part of Ireland th,'
which he was most nearly connected the greatest benefits 1d
arisen from acting upon this principle. In his parish the systen
was found to work so well, that out of the fifteen heads of Pre-
testant families who resided there fourteen of them made 1111°
plication for a grant towards the erection of another school.
Mr. MAXWELL said, without the return for which his
Hon. Friend had moved, it would be quite impossible to es'
certain the number of Roman Catholics and Protestants et'
tending each school.
Mr. S. RICE saw no objection to the return. He sheulad
most sincerely rejoice if the system of education, proposes
with the best intentions should prove successful. He Wa
anxious that the fullest information as to the working often'e
system should be communicated, and was glad that the a
tion of the Member for St. Andrew's had been called to the
subject. He had no doubt the system would upon inquiry r.et;
commend itself, as it had already, in some instances, to
I
former antagonists. The subject had been at one time cell;
verted into an arena for the exhibition of party animosity, built
he trusted that time had gone by, and that ere long he °lig"-
take the Member for Cavan (Mr. Maxwell) to his heart.. ,s
Sir R. BATE SON said his Right Hon. Friend sld;„1
was happy to see so many converts to this new principle.
his part he was not one of them. His objections to it no"'
were as strong as they were before.
Mr. BARRON explained. Vele
An HON. MEMBER deprecated the use of all language vi-11,0
might lead to feelings of religious animosity, and expressed
approbation of the system of national education in Ireland.
Mr. RUT HVEN hoped that nothing would be said or tlOllOl,
to occasion acrimonious debates upon this subject.—(Cries
" Question.")
Mr. FlNCHsaid that the returns had been granted. sle
another place, therefore there could be no additional exPenj
or trouble to have them laid on the table of that House.
The returns were then ordered.
SLAVERY ABOLITION.
Mr. GLADSTONE then moved to discharge the addrett
of yesterday ( Slavery Abolition proceedings) and to subs
tute another address in lieu thereof.—Agreed to.
Mr. S. RICE begged to put a question to the Hen. Ge;
tleman (Mr. Gladstone) which was one of some importee;
and likely to create considerable interest during the Pres'',
Session ; the question related to the state of moral and
held
gious instruction in the West India colonies. When he as,
the Seals of the Colonial Department a circular had been tirit to
mitted to the West India Islands, requesting information Om
the state of moral and religious instruction m them. Wbtitliar.
left office no return had been made in answer to the cire•
Now the first question he had to ask the Honourable Geuisr;
man was, whether answers had been received to the cite,
and the second was, whether in case they had been rece" ja
or should be hereafter received, there would be any difficult/
laying them on the table of the House? ot the
Hon. GLADSTONE said that in an answer me& of
Hon. Member for Weymouth he had stated that papers wits
nature alluded to were in the course of arrival. The reLi•oas
moved for by him contained some information on the re"elotl
instruction of the West India Colonies. More inforld
was expected, and a tabular summary of the whole ivets
certainly laid before the House.
HAYLEYBURY COLLGE.
Mr. HUME then moved for " An account of the _iliac;
pense or charge incurred for the maintenance of the Lie Jcl
at Hayleybury in 1833 and 1834, after deducting the sunned at
by students, and stating the number of students educe otioe
the College in each half year." The object of his ,u 3
was to have information laid before the House, es Lie that
likely to submit to the House a measure respecting
establishC. ment.
Mr. FERGUSON said that the return would by
yen
long, and that its utility was extremely questionable. the
Mr. PRAED said the matter was at present bastuF
Board of Control, and that it was resolved to give the appo'
system a fair trial. However, if the Hon. Gentieueuri,edbi!si
site brought forward any measure on the subject he agsti—a the
that it would receive the most willing consideration °
part of Government.
EAST INDIA AFFAIRS. AA'tie°l
Mr. HUME then moved for " An account of the
annual expense or charge en the revenue of India act°tafbis
curred, and to be incurred, by the enactments of the Ac poi
present Majesty for the new Government at Agra, tbeotea
Commissioners, and other establishments and office..
under that Bill." A intelitei.
Mr. PRA ED said that they had only just receives- t they
genre of the establishment of the Government, anti tbe
would be some difficulty in giving the details sought for.oo
Mr. C. FERGUSON thought the sooner the estaboo,
er
was abolished the better, as it only caused an unnecess
pense to the East India Government. taielti°
Mr. HUME heard that despatches had' arrived crl,
0'
the opinions of the Government, and that those opin 700
curred with the view he had taken of the subject lestGovers
Mr. PRAED said the general view taken by the nlnie a
meat was not like that of the Hon. Member, but the "0 r tiros
re-
of some of the authorities were certainly the salumot Per;
expressed by the Hon. Member last year. He was lette
pared to say that there was any objection to laying thesberti4
received on the table of that House. They would be woe
laid before the House of Lords, and afterwards tberese. t
not be any difficulty in placing them before that guellsoollu
Mr. HUME then moved fer certain returns of therm:4,oV
of capital of the Poplar Fund of the East Indiew, '
the (1-1,
also an estimate of the expense to be incurred the
India Company, and by the British Government, 1°
plomatic mission to Persia.--Ordered. s°„.°
CUSTOMS, EXCISE, STAMPS, AND account the
On the motion of Sir T. FREMANTLE, an slo
ordered of the total produce of the Duties of Coto?, 'tett the
years ended sth January 1833, and sth January 18%_s in
of
January 1835, respectively ; showing the variatioine
amount thereof which were calculated to be made
snrice_ I
the last three years by alteration in the rates of ciutvo
paring the actual produce with such variations; also' to
of the Revenues of Excise, Stamps, and Taxes.
etuft'stlP
On the motion of an HON.
printed,MEMß the gao l r
February were ordered to be . AO'
On the motion of Mr. BROFIIERTON3 the House
at twelve o'clock.

f
BIRTHS. , the
On the 6th inst., at Wiganthorpe Park, Yorkshire,
William Garforth, Esq., of a daughter. so
110 e
MARRIED. . All p 4.•
On the 9th inst., at Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Christ%il iela,
Esq., Charlotte-square, to Anne, daughter of J°ll°
High Claremont-place, near Newcastle. . Pt'
On the 9th inst., in Little ow ir-street,
in his 82d year. DT I E,D. wool garrioll'oei,
~„ rlotte ,
On the 10th inst., at Woolwich, Frances Charlotte 17• Pr',
second daughter of Captain Romer, Royal ArtillerY, 7,,ife 'l._
On the 6th inst., at the Grove, Hackney, Eliza,
..6 110"
John W. Scott, of the Stock Exchange. of Willi°- . :- - -
On the 11th inst., at Homerton, William, son -
_____>.---(4
Esq., in his 31st year. °f - 6.
= aeR•••••••JAMPOOMT, ___...., lIN 6;
coosti
London : Printed and Published by mtnwo YL;, in tb
112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 11% Straw
of Middlesex.

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