The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 28, 1835.

There were many objections and many recommendations
started, all of which were duly considered ; and as far as the
evidence went, he must say the opinion he had entertained
was not shaken—that it would be far better that there were
oho officer, whether the Secretary of the War Department,
or the Secretary of State, or a President of the Army Board,
who.should be able to come down to the House, and state on
his own responsibility that he bad recommended such an ex-
penditure, and that he was accountable for it.—( Hear, hear. )
When he looked at the present way in which the army was
governed—when he saw that the Secretary at War interfered
with the Commander-in-Chief, and the Commander-in-Chief
interfered with the Secretary at War—(Hear)—that the Board
of Ordnance exercised a power over either department; that the
military officers Were obliged to go to the several heads of the
different departments ; and, lastly, when he took into conside-
ration the great superabundance of stores which, he believed,
at the time of the appointment of this Commission was esti-
mated at seven millions--( Hear)—he, with many others, did
think that these evils might be remedied, and that their cor-
rection would lead to a better administration of the affairs of
the army. At the same time it was not his opinion, nor did
he think it was the opinion of any of the members of the
•Commission, that the military command invested in the Com-
mander-in Chief for the purpose of preserving military dis-
cipline should be weakened.—( Hear, hear.) The Commis •
sion never came to any end. He did not think it completed
its evidence when the Duke of Richmond resigned office. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Secretary for Ireland,)
who was most competent to offer an opinion on the Oen, and
*to go into the details of the subject, had not been examined,
and this fact alone appeared to him to afford se'cient proof
that' the evidence had not been completed. The Commission,
then, having closed without making any report, or bringing
the evidence to a finish, he still thought this a proper subject
for inquiry, whether by the Government itself, if it were
disposed to undertake such a plan, or by a ,Select Com-
mittee of that House. Taking this view of the question,
he was disposed to refer the army and ordnance estimates
to a Select Committee, but he should be prepared to vote for
a Select Committee of the nature of that of which the Ho-
nourable Gentleman spoke if he confined his motion to that.
He ( Lord John Russell) took the,liberty, however, of suggest-
ing to the lion. Gentleman that it was not advisable for him
to press his motion that evening—( Hear, hear)—on account of
the statements made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Se-
cretary at War. The course of their present proceedings was
certainly no fault of this present Parliament—(Cheers)—it was
not their fault that they were getting somewhat too near to
the period when the Mutiny Bill would expire for them at pre-
sent to enter into the discussion of any other subject. Ile I
should have no objection to going into a Committee of Supply,
and take the vote of a certain number of men. If 'the Hon.
Gentleman persisted in his motion he should vote for it, but he
begged to suggest to the Hon. Gentleman that it would always
be in his power to .being forward his motion, which was another
reason why he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would feel no ob-
jection to withdraw it on the present occasion.—( Heir, hear.)
Lord STANLEY concurred in almost every thing that-
had fallen from his Noble Friend opposite, and would join him
in the expression of a hope that the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex would withdraw his inotion.—( Hear. hear.) Ile dif-
fered with his Noble Friend in one point only, viz., the course
be should pursue this evening would not be directed by the
course which might be taken by the Noble Lord. If the
Hon. Member for Middlesex persisted in his motion, he
should consider it his duty to divide against him—( Hear)--
but if be postponed it, and brOught it forward. hereafter in
the form of a substantive motion—if he did not bring it for-
ward as a motion for stopping the supplies, or preventing 'the
passing of the Mutiny Bill—( Hear, hear)—then he should
be ready to consider that it was a question well worthy the
consideration of the House, and that great and extensive re-
ductions might be made, not only without injuring but with
benefit to the interests of the country.—(Cheers.) He re-
gretted that the Commission had not brought its inquiries to
an end before the close of the last session, because he felt that
this'was a question that it was much better to leave in the
hands of the Executive, aided by a Commission, than to refer
to the investigation of the House. He was, therefore, glad to
hear from the Government that they were prepared to follow up
the inquiries instituted last session, with a view to the objects
entertained by the late Government, if it were found pract-
cable, viz. the consolidation of the various civil departments
of the army and the ordnance. He was glad the Government
were prepared to act upon that view ; but if it should turn" out
that they were not, and the Hon. Member for Middlesex, on
another occasion, thought fit that a Select Committee be ap-
pointed to take into consideration the evidence that had been
given before the Commissioner, and to receive the report on
such other evidence as might be obtainable, he should not
only give no opposition to such a motion, but, as far as he
could, should be ready to afford him every support.—(cheers. )
He did hope that the Hon. Member, after the strong' opinion
which the Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed as to the
importance to the service of the vote of this evening' not be-
ing delayed would consent for the present to withdraw his mo-
tion ; and he trusted that if the Hon. Gentlemen did so the
House would see the propriety of abstaining from any further
discussion of a question which would be. much better argued
hereafter.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Sir R. PE E L—l think I may say that the House, on. all
former similar occasions, has been in the habit, howeve,
strongly it may feel disposed to object to the political princi-
ples and the general course of conduct pursued by the Govern-
ment, of showing that consideration which is due to the cir-
cumstances under which they are called upon to administer
the affairs of the country.--( Cheers.) When the House re-
collects that we undertook the functions of the Government it
December last—that, on assuming them, we found man•
questions remaining after the last Government entirely un-.
settled—the English and Irish tithe questions, the Dissenters'
Marriage Bill, and the state of Canada, were quite unsettled
the latter, I may say, untouched—when I say, the House re-
collects that all these various and important questions wen,
pressing upon our consideration—it will not appear surprising
to it if there are some less important subjects which we have
not had either time or opportunity of carefully considering.
We applied ourselves to those matters which appeared to us to
be most pressing, and whatever opinion the House may enter-
tain of our activity on the present occasion, it cannot fairly
charge us with remissness in submitting the usual and neces-
sary motions to its discussion. But the Hon. Member for
Middlesex has chosen to bring forward a motion on this day,
which is one of those set apart for Supply. I ask the
House is it fair—is it proper ? I appeal to the House
whether it is usually obstructed on days of Supply.—
(Hear.) The Honourable Member on former days pro-
posed amendments ; lie, however, withdrew them. This
day there are two amendments. The Honourable Member
has given notice of a motion on the Army Estimates. I hope
he will persevere in bringing it forward. The Hon. Gentle-
man has not given that notice heedlessly, or, I am bound to
suppose, without all deliberation. It stands for to-night. Is
the Hon. Gentleman's motion to come after the Army Esti-
mates are disposed of, or is it not ? I hope it is, for that is a
fair and legitimate mode by which the House of Commons
will be enabled to show the Executive whether they shall
carry on the 'tininess of Government or whether they shall
not.—( Cheers.) Notice after notice has been given on the
subject of the Hon. Member's motion, and time after time have
they been withdrawn. When I saw, after repeated postpone-
ments, that the notice was finally given last night—when I saw
that the Hon. Member and those who act with him had ap-
parently made up their minds as to the course they intended
to pursue—l could not entertain a doubt of the decision they
had come to, whether they could give a vote of confidence to
the Executive or withhold it from them.---(Cheers.) After
the notice given by the Hon. person who took such a promi-
nent part in the question of Irish tithes I did hope that the
question would be brought before the House, and that we
should proceed to vote the necessary number of men for the
army before a decision of the House of Commons was pro-
nounced on that question. It has been objected to the Go-
vernment that they have caused the delay in the public busi-
nesi in some degree themselves. Is that a fair objection ? Is
it a true one ? It is not the fault of the Government that the
Parliament was not called together until the 4th or sth of
February, neither is that the cause of the delay. The true
cause is the unwise, and, in some cases, the unwarrantable.
exercise of the privilege possessed by Hon. Members of mo
ving amendments on every question before the House.—
( Cheers.). That is the true cause. It is for the House tt
say whether such obstructions to the business of the country
shall continue any loiter ?-:-(Cheers.) On the 25th of April
the Mutiny Act expires ; a power of obstruction to its renewal
is in the hands of every Hon. Member of the House, and he
is privileged to exercise it whatever his motives may be for
so doing. I hope, liewever, that no such indirect course tt
defeat the Executive will be taken. I trust that a fair ane
manly course will be adopted by those Hon. Members in Op-
position to his Majesty's Government.—( Cheers.) To oppose
them by frivolous motions is neither a fair, a manly, or a le-
gitimate course of proceeding ; and I hope such a one win
not be adopted, or, if adopted temporarily, not persevered
in.—( Hear.) It is a perfectly fair and legitimate course- for
the Opposition to say to his Majesty's Ministers-- " Yot
have not our confidence, 'we do not deem you entitled to Cu'
support ;" and if the House of Commons is of the same opi-
nion it is a perfectly fair and legitimate course for it ti
adopt to say—" We will vote you no money—we will
you no supplies." Never did any man pant for any thing
more than I do for the moment in which that shall come to be
the question.—( Cheers. ) Never was any man more perfeeth
free from care as to the results.—( Cheers.) 'Fo take that
course would be to take a fair, a manly, and a legitimate course
but it is neither one nor the other to obstruct the public busi-
ness in the manner that has been done night after night by me_
tious which have only an indirect operation, and by a line of
conduct which the public cannot understand.—( Cheers.) The
financial year commences on the sth of April, immediately
after which we come forward and propose our estimates. Or.
the 25th of April the Mutiny Act expires. It is not a factious
course, I admit, to oppose the granting of the supplies, but 1
can term the indirect course which has been adopted in the
present instance no other but a factious one.—( Hear, hear.)
If the House of Commons had applied itself to the.considera-
tion of the estimates on the 19th of February it would have
had full time to make up its mind on the supplies. I shall now
come more directly to the propositions of the Hon. Member for
Middlesex. The Hon. Member proposes in the first instance
that the Army and Ordnance Estimates shall be referred to a
Hon.e
mre eteeerarsii
‘rt.n
Select Committee up stairs. The lion. Member took the
shouldssaeml
eect
the
erse
Committee o n
Army t
ahn:d go, erTds oa nns
settle,"
teotfl theec, t
says
maNyaastveyts
the
eb Estimates.
o
e. amount” ofs
it forceco competentmriei tiidrf,eodar
and
dn cc:
Committeesensuinghoul
d
that question, depending as it does on information which the
t
Executive can alone
ExtheecutivodepbnsyaNei
to
imparted
)ember,
to no Select Committee whatever? The Hon. Member says
the amount of force is a question which should originate in the
Privy Council,*or at least that the acquiescence of the Privy
Council in the decision of the Select Committee would be
sufficient. But does the Hon. Gentleman know that it does

non rest with the Privy Council more than it should with a
Select Committee to propose or sanction the amount-of force
necessary to be maintained ? It rests with a body, not, per-
haps, properly speaking, known to the law, but which, practi-
cally speaking, is sufficiently well known to the House of
Commons and to Parliament, the Cabinet Council, composed
of individuals from the Privy Council, called to the most secret
and important deliberations of his Majesty. The House of
Commons, from time immemorial,. has said that the proposal
of the necessary force was the province of the Executive, and
affirmed repeatedly that it should rest in that branch of the
Government atone. Does the Hon. Member mean' to gainsay
that affirmation ?—( Hear.) The best course for the Hon.
Gentleman to take, under all the circumstances will, in my
opinion, be to say to the Executive, " You have not our con-
fidence ; you shall not have our support," rather than to per-
severe in the proposition which he has made this evening. The
Hon. Gentleman next proposes to admit the amount of force
conditionally, and to' refer the remainder of the Army and
Ordnance Estimates to a Select Committee ; that Committee
not to be empowered to toubh on the amount of men required
for the service. I shall never consent to such a proceeding.
If it be done this year it must be done the next, and a prece-
dent will be established. I shall never consent to the esta-
blishment of any precedent which has for its object to take the
necessary and legitimate power out of the hands of the Exe-
cutive and delegate it to a Committee up stairs, or any other
select body whatever.—(thee: s.) I shall never consent that
it be transferred from the bar of public opinion to a pla.ewhere
public opinion would have little or no influence—where a bad
vote could be easily explained witLcut trouble to the party
giving it, where an exorbitant and unfair item could be slurred
over without any explanation at all, and, more than all, where
there would be no regular, perhaps, but still very coercive,
I reports of the debates and proceedings.—( Loud cheering.) I
say, Sir, if a Government wishes to establish a bad precedent,
—if it desires to rule without responsibility—let them rulb by
a Select Committee—let them send all their estimates to it.
I wish to establish no such precedent. I desire not to have
any share in the Government without a due share of .responsi-
bility, and therefore I shall never consent to the amended mo-
tion of the Hon. Mearb?r.—( Cheers.) I shall next come to
the third proposition, of the Hon. Gentleman. He asks me
whether I would consent to the appointment of a- Committee to
iaquire into select manners connected with the Ordnance and the
Navy ? It is exceedingly difficult to draw a line at which the
appcintment of Committees should cease, and beyond which the
principle should not be permitted to pass. Any Hon. Member
if some such line were not drawn, could. on the pretence of
public duty, or economy, or a disposition to retrenchment, call
for a Committee on any subject connected with the public
service. Nay, ten different Hon. Members could call for as
many different Committees on the same ground. One Hon.
Member might propose a Committee to inquire into the pos-
sibility of reducing the Lords of the Admiralty to three, and
another the Lords of the Admiralty to two, on the plea of a
possible reduction of their several situations with a view to the
public gain in a pecuniary point of view. Every department
tu the State might be included in a motion for a Committee,
and all on the general and ,vague principle of probable reduc-
tion.. This argument could be applied to every office. To
illustrate this I shall take the Hon. Gentleman's own sugges-
tion. He says "by means of this Committee it could be seen
whether some offices rai4lit not be merged in others; for in-
stance, whether that ot e Commander-in- Chief could not be
abolished, and the duties of the office transferred to the Secre-
tary at War. Does not the House agree with me now that
t'aese are limits which should not be overstepped in granting
Committees ? And can there be any second opinion that this
is beyond them ?—( Hear.) As long as I have the power to
do so I can never consent to transfer the military duties of that
office to a civilian.

Mr. HUME, in a low voice, said, we believe, that the Sec-
retary at War was not necessarily a civilian.
Sir R. PEEL—The duties of the Secretary at War are
generally civil duties, though I allow he need not necessarily
be a civilian. But I speak of the office, and not of the indi-
vidual, and the office is a civil one. Therefore I say to 'the
Hon. Gentleman that as one of his objects is to abolish the
office of Cammander-in-Chief, and as I never can consent to
such a proceeding, I cannot, of course, consent to the Com-
mittee which he asks for. The last proposal the Hon. Gen-
tleman makes, is contained in the question, would I con-
sent to a Committee for the purpose of ascertaining whether
.the civil departments of the Army and Ordnance could not be
amalgamated, with a view to the reduction of the present
expenditure in that quarter, or whether I would appoint a
Commission to the same effect ? In reply to this, I may
refer .to the answer I made to a Noble Lord on a former
night, when I was questioned with respect to the particu-
lars of some measure respecting the Dissenters. I have
not had time to give the subject full consideration. It was
only last night that the Noble Lord called on me to state
distinctly what I intended to do, and to pledge myself to the
details of a measure which is not yet complete. I had no
answer but the one I have given. I have no hesitation in
saying, and I feel no shame in admitting, that I have not given
the subject full consideration. The same answer I now give
to the Hon. Member's proposal. But, after all, what con-
aection has that Committee with the vote on supply ? Wha
4-round can a refusal be for opposition ? Granting that it
.were right I should give a Committee or appoint a Corn-
mission, what connection has it with the Army and Ordnance
Estimates?__( Hear.) If I refuse. eitleer or both let the Hon.
gentleman take the fair course. Let him give notice or a mo-
ion on the subject for a future day—let it come fully and fairly
-wfore the House—let the'evidence of its necessity be made
ipparept—but let him not raise an opposition to a question of
tublic business which is as foreign as one thing can be to
.another.—( Hear.) . If after reading all the evidence on the
luestion, if after considering it in all its bearings, I state to
,he House and the Hon. Gentleman that I do not deem it
.iecessary to assent to his proposition then let the Hon. Gen-
tleman take the course he thinks proper in reference to it,
and not until then.—( Hear, hear.) That would be the right
s!ourse, which is not the one he is taking at present.—( Hear,
hear.) I have no other answer but this to give the lion. Gen-
tleman. I cannot, until those conditions shall have been corn-
;lied with, accede to his proposition. Whatever may occur,
I shall never, while I have the honour to be a Minister of the
Crown, consent to establish a bad precedent to escape from a
temporary difficulty.—( Cheers.) I shall make no pledge. I
:will give no promise beyond this, that the subject shall have
.Ity best consideration. And if, on a future day, the lion.
Member brings forward a motion on the subject, 1 will be
prepared to meet it in whatever way I deem most advent's-
seous for the service of the State, and the good of the coun-
try.—( Cheers. )
Mr. ELLICE considered himself bound to tell the Right
Hon. Baronet that the situation in which he was placed was
one of his own choosing—one for which he alone was respon-
sible._.( Hear.) And if the public time was wasted, and if
there was delay in the questions brought under the considera-
tion of the House, the responsibility was with him.—( Hear.)
These questions had been under the consideration of the late
Government, they would have been considerably advanced
by this, but that the Right Hon. Baronet and his colleagues
superseded them, and dissolved the Parliament. He (Mr.
Ellice) repeated again, that the Right Hon. Baronet,
whether on the spot or not, was, with his colleagues, re-
sponsible for the delay and lost time.—( Hear, hear.) That
the Right Hon. Gentleman was not in at situation to bring
forward the question whish lie stated he (Mr. E.) was willing
to admit : that he had brought forward others he could not
deny. But the admission of Dissenters to the Universities and
the Dissenters' Marriage Bills, were under the -consideration
of the former Government—who were willing—and what was
of more importance, had a Parliament ready and prepared_
to carry them. That Government was, however, dismissed
from office—not because fault had been found with them, not
because they were charged with doing too little, or even too
much—they were dismissed in a moment without cause as-
signed, at the caprice of the Nobleman who held the provi-
sional Administration in his own hands—( Hear),--in a manner
which had no precedent in the history of the country. By
this movement the entire mass of measures of public improve-
ment which was in process of digestion was completely im-
peded, and the public business thrown back for an incalculable
oeriod. Next came the dismissal of the Parliament. A Par-
liament which never refused a vote of credit to the King; a
Parliament which enjoyed the confidence of the people—
s Parliament which was unirnpugned. That Parliament was
lismissed, not because of either of these causes—not because
of its incompetency to do justice to the country—but because
.t would not suit the political views of the Right Honourable
Baronet and his party ; and because they expected by its
lissolution to be supplied with another adverse to those mea-
mres of improvement which the former were anxious to carry
nto operation.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Mr. E.) would not have
dluded to those topics, if the course pursued by the Right
Hon. Baronet had not been such as precluded an alternative.
He bad come down to the House, not to take any part in the
lobate, but to see whether he might not be able'to afford some
assistance to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Her-
*les), and also to ascertain whether some force, satisfactory to
the country and efficient tor all useful purposes, could not be
'kept up. Not such a force as showed the little confidence the
Government had in their own strength ; but such a one as.
while it did riot impair the utility of the service, would show
how little confidence the House had in the Government._
( Hear ) A course to this effect had been adopted by the Hon.
-timber for Middlesex ; but the Right Hon. Baronet was too
able a tactician, too wily a stageist. " Bring forward your
motion," be said, " and we shall then see whether the House
of Commons will give us such an army as is necessary. We
.hall put the question of confidence upon that vote." Did the
Right Hon. Gentleman think they would take him at his word?
The vote on the Estimates Wil3, properly speaking, no vote of
confidence, even if it passed, in favour of the Right Hon.
Baronet.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore, in asking his Hon.
Friend the Member for Middlesex to withdraw his proposition,
the last thing he ( Mr. E.) or his friends meant to show by so
doing was confidence in his Majesty's Ministers.—( Hear,
hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the opposi-
lion to the supply was factious. Did he mean by factious the
side of the House from whence the opposition came, or did he
mean generally all opposition, from whatever quarter on the
subject ? If he meant the latter, what would he say to the
conduct of a Noble Lord the Member for Buckinghamshire,
who on the `2sth of last April, in the past Session of Parlia-
ment, on the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair for
a Committee of Supply, brought forward a long motion on the
distressed state of agriculture ?—( Hear.) He did not think
it could be shown that the motion of the Noble Marquis
last year had much reference to the Army Estimates,.
and if he mistook not the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite,
the Secretary at War, on the same occasion showed so little
of factious feeling as to bring forward a motion respecting
timber.--( Hear, hear. )
Mr. HERRIE S—l never did.—( Hear.)
Mr. ELLICE—He could not say that his recollection was
very clear upon the subject—( Hear and laughter.) lion.
Gentlemen were quite welcome to a cheer or a laugh at his
expense • but, to come to facts, surely it could not, be said
that the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Middle-