The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-04 00:00:00

s . -. ,
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bait y_on those wlio hatlecalfilled it....—Theejnatifiesetlen of—it-TratremrgeertFelie-Ccuneilesealro-cetrefreranSouth -.:',Toltbh.egainst
, -vas to be found in this, that the recovery could not be effected the Bill.
without incurring worse evils than attended the abandonment Viscount .73. TRANGFO RD begged to call the attention of
I
of it: What did the Hon. Gentleman propose ? Did he pro- tboir Lordships to a petition preneeed by the Noble Vieoount
peso that the money should be recovered -from the Clergy oppesite; that petition pnrported to be a petition from the
the ~selves, from wham it was not in the first instance due--or county of Kent, whereas, upon lcoking at it, it was only the
from the landlords, from whom it was not due at the time petition of a single individual.
When the original oblieation was incurred—or from the oecu- MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS.
pying tenant, from whom it was due? He (Lord Morpeth) Lord MELBOURNE, without taking the least notice of
would not consent to recover it from the clerg2;mata because the observatioes of the Nettle Viscount, said—Me Lords,
he thought that the Bill bore already with sufficient weight I be; leave to move that the Order of the Day be now
'
time his straightened circumstances, and because they could pea':. --( Cheers from' the Ministerial, and cries of " No,
ms
not cai: noon tidal to advance the money unless they were pre- no ! " from the Opp(:si•tion, side of the House.) . My Lords.
pared to bee!: him in a crusade for the recovery of his tithes I move that th,.. Order of the Day be read, and in doing so,
against" a resisting and reluctant tenantry. Neither would he I wish to state the reasons upon which I shall have it read.—
consent to recover it from the tenantry, because the main ob- ( Cheers.) My Lords, the Order of the Day is, that your
ject and scope of the Bill was to place an ultimate barrier, as ) Lordships should resolve Yourselves into a Committee on the
far as possible, between the ccccpying tenant and the col Municipal Corporation Bill.
lector of tithes.--(}leer, hear, hear.) Neither would he Lord L YND II URS c—As I understand the Order of the
consent to the recovery of it f.orn the landlord, who was Day, the Noble Viscount opposite has mis-stated it.—( Cheers
not preciously liable for it, because he would not depart from from the Opposition.)
1 • • 1 which landlord's consent had been given Lord M ELBOURNE—WeII, it is to consider the further
the principle on the .
toths Bill, and because he would not aggravate the new re- debate.—(Cheers.) The motion is, that the Order of the
spensibility which it threw upon him, in the imposition of the Day be read, whatever it may be.—( Cheers.) We all know
liability to the rent cl. ege. He at least would run no risk, that the Order of the Day is to take into consideration the
by altering the stipulations of the originally proposed con- Municipal Reform Bill._-.. (Cries of " No, no !")
i
tract, of causing the defeat of a measure which he believed n Lord LI N DM; RST—W e can only know the Order of
his conscience to be essential to the subsistence of the clergy the Day by reference to al-e document.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH—I think that no Peer
and the prosperity of theeeinpire.
Lord STANLEY was desirous of stating. before the House ought to stand up and argue this question until the Order has
came to a decision neon this subject, why, on the one kind, been read.— ( Cheers and laughter.)
Lord B II OUG HA M rose to address the House, but in coll-
ets she motion of the Hon. Member for
be could not suep
Southwark nor, on the other, concur in the conclusions of sequence of the confusien that prevailed it was impossible to
his Noble Friend ( Lord Morpetli.) Strongly as he felt the hear a word the Noble Lord said.
argument of the lion. Member for Sout'eneark, that the peo- When order had in some degree been restored—
ple of England ought not to be called. upon to pay a sum
of Lord MELBOURNE rose and said—Certainly, amidst
money which ought to be borne by other parties, yet li could
the political differences and dissensions by which the country
not agree with him so far as to think, that if under this Bill
had been agitated for the last five years, and which he was
there was a fair and reasonable prospect of the settlement of
afraid still existed—amid those political differences and dis-
a great and conflicting question, involving within it the peace sensions, it would give him great satisfaction, if, upon the
of Ireland, that the people of England would not be willing present occasion he could anticipate that their Lordships
arrive in the measure he was about to propose,
to make the sacrifice demanded of them. On the other band, wouldh all agree
no difference of opinion would exist upon
be the subject.—( Hear, hear.) His object was to remedy
he rested his opposition to his Noble Friend, not on the
and t
ground of the pecuniary loss to England, which would
incurred by the proposed compromise, but on the ground that
evils that existed, and the only question was, in what manner
the agreement which it was sought to carry into effect gave a those evils should be remedied.—(Great cheering.) He
direct discouragement, and inflicted a penalty upon all whovery
was much encouraged in the expectations lie entertained
respect to this subject, when he recollected that
obeyed the laws, and offered a direct encouragement and reward
with
to all who disobeyed them. Therefore it was that lie, feeling the this Bill had been sent up from another place without
a
gross injustice of passing a law of encouragement to law single division upon its principle—( Hear, and cheers)—
and when he also recollected it had been distinctly admitted
breakers, could not give his assent to a measure which seemed
to him to have that tendency. He did not think there was any 'll men of eminence in the other House of Parliament—
chance of this Bill being a final settlement of the question. men of great weight and authority—that the principle was
His Noble Friend would tell him, probably, in reply to his ob- right, he thought that the • was come when
jections, that it was found impossible to collect the tithe arrears some_ systematic Municipal Government.e should be adopted.
in Ireland. What better chance was there that he would be In all these great remedial. measures in which we have been
able to collect the tithes to the amount at which his Bill placed engaged of late years, it has been my most anxious wish to
them? He was anxious to withdraw the clergymen from (AAR, open them in such a. manner as not to provoke hostility, so
sion with the occupying tenant; but he thought the 600.0001. that if- I was not justified in anticipating that there would be.
paid to. i
the clergy of Ireland ought to be recovered upon the an agreement among your Lordships as to their adoption, I
m pnnplebe had explained. He did not care about ts. going should do my utmost to promote a spirit of conciliation—to
into the pockets of the people of England, but should be wil-
open them in such
na way as not to tend to excite irritation—
ling to see it all laid out in public works in Ireland. not to use any topics of an irritating nature, and in my consi-
Mr. O'CONNELL bad no objection to the present mea-
deration of the subject rather to look forward to the future,
sure being regarded as a mere experiment, if gentlemen chose than backward to the past—not to view them so much with
r
so to consider it, for the pacification of Ireland. Viewing it in reference to their past evils, as to look at them with a view to
that light, he was prepared to contend that Parliament ought their future advantages, and thus to avoid as much as possible
to adopt it. The Noble Lord who had just spoken had himself introducing anything thfit might tend to inflame the prejudices
a
advanced 60,0001, formerly to the clergy, and done all in his sad irritate the feelings, and so to obscure the judgments of
power, by horse, foot, and artillery, and turning barracks in those who heard me.—(Hear, and cheering.) I repeat, my
Lords, that, on all these occasions, my wish has been ra-
ag ards for corn, to collect that amount. He was, however,
h g ther to look forward than backward. In the great measure
only able to collect 12,0001., after incurring 20,0001. costs.—
to amend and improve our Parliamentary representation, it
How, then, could the Noble Lord gravely urge the Govern-
was not my wish so much to look to the existing abuses
ment to attempt the recovery of 600,0001. similarly advanced ?
of the system, as to the advantages that would follow upon
A change of system must be adopted towards Ireland. She
must be governed with generosity. They had already strewed the change. Again, with relation to the system of our
when.the amendment of the abuses of that system
war upon her. Having resolved upon an experiment satisfac-
her fields with the slain, and it was now proposed again to make poor-laws,
was proposed, it was my study to avoid saying anything of the
tory to all parties, he hoped the Government would not be
conduct of those with whom many of those abuses had origi-
persuaded to attempt the recovery of the arrears, merely to nated, but rather to direct attention to the advantages which
would arise from the adoption of a new system. That, my Lords,
Jeep alive dissension.
Mr. SHAW did not wish the Clergy to pay the arrears of' appears to me not only to be the most expedient, but the
tithes; but he thought they might be gathered from the most just course of proceeding. To a certain extent, at
landlords. least, I agree with the sentiment expressed in the protest
Mr. HUME thought it would not tend to pacify Ireland,
of Sir Francis Palgrave, that a great deal of evil has arisen
from the neglect and inattention of Parliament in treating
that those who had not paid tithes for four years, being in the these matters. My Lords, it seems to me, that in consi-
proportion of two-fifths to three-fifths should be allowed to daring these cases of general delinquency, there is one cir-
cumstance greatly encouraging in its nature, but which has
satisfied in such a case. The great difficulty was, that it would generally been overlooked ; it is a circumstance applicable
be holding out a premium for resisting the 70 per cent. The to crimes against society, to frauds upon individuals, as
Noble Lord who introduced the Bill said that a contract had well as to abuses which often creep in upon long-existing
been made. If a contract had been made, he begged to ask systems of any sort. It is this—that all these evils are much
the Noble Lord with whom it had been made? Let the Noble encouraged by the general neglect and inattention of the per-
Lord acquaint him with the parties, and then he should be able sons, possessors of property, who are at last obliged loudly to
to judge how far the sacrifice they were then making was likely demand a remedy for them. We often hear the exclamations,
to tend to the pacification of Ireland. As at present informed ,i What a dreadful case I" . " What a frightful breach of trust I
upon the subject, he should certainly oppose the grant. why, the person gave up all his property to his confidant, and
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat never asked him for an account." My Lords, it is just that
down, originally resisted the advance on the ground that which has occasioned the evil—it is that unjust confidence,
there was no prospect of a repayment, and now he charged which I will not say palliates the misconduct of the offence,
him with having set a bad example in proposing to remit the but which has undoubtedly tended to produce the offence
payment, of which there was not the slightest prospect.— (hear, hear, hear.) The courts of justice, I am afraid, are
(Cheers.) It was clear that the million was lost to England. not without their share of the blame in this matter; I fear
lie admitted that on the subject of Irish tithes or any other that they but too often display a considerable leaning to-
difficult question, it would be impossible to propose a measure, wards palliating such misconduct; and sure I am, from ex-
- the &tails-of which would -be free from objection. With perience in the other House of Parliament, neat a similar
regard to putting the defaulter and him who had obeyed the fault is committed there when a case of delinquency is brought
law upon the same footing, he would willingly agree to este- before the House. In the case of the city of Coventry, for
Wish that distinction, if it could be practically carried into instance, and in many other cases of a similar kind, though
effect, but he should be inclined to doubt the policy of any proceedings are at first warmly taken up—the length, the
attempt to recover the arrears of tithes. To snake the tedium, and the uncertainty of those proceedings, generally
landlord liable would be a manifest injustice, as it would produce indifference towards the matter, and little is actually
be in many cases impossible for him to recover tithes, many done to check the evil that has been brought under the notice
of his tenants perhaps being dead, having quitted their pre- of the House. In pursuance, my Lords, of my intention to
mises,_ or being unable to make the payment. Respecting lay this subject before you in a calm and dispassionate manner,
the advance of million from the English funds, he must I shall throw out of the question all those smaller matters as
censure any distinction between the burdens which fell on to abuses originated and kept up for the purposes ofpolitical in-
different parties. When he was in office, he intended to pro fluence and interest. I shall not allude to cases like those
pose a remission of church cess in England, the amount to mentioned by a Noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) the other
be paid out of the public revenues. Ile intended to propose day, where such influence was avowedly kept up, for the pur-
an advance to Scotland, and, to make the advantages some- pose of securing the return of a Member of Parliament—cases
what proportional, he intended to propose that Ireland should • where Hon. Gentlemen and Noble Lords become, for such a
be released from any obligation to repay this million. If, purpose, members of country Corporations. I shall make no
however, the objection, that one country must not be burdened observations, my Lords, upon such cases, beyond saying sunt
to give a slight benefit to another, had been put forward, he vitia temporis, vitia honrinem. lam also about, my Lords,
must admit that the arrangement could not have met the ob- to make a much larger deduction from the topics of this de-
jection, nor indeed would any arrangement of the kind be bite—a deduction, however, of circumstances, which, though
even free from it ; but then it was to be considered whether I shall leave out of the statement of the matter, I shall hope
a small pecuniary grievance was not counterbalanced by the to take credit with you for not having negligently overlooked ;
removal of a great practical es il. With regard to the propo_ for though I shall not state these circumstances, I trust that
sition of the Hon. Gentleman, he could net agree to it, as its you will take them into your account in considering what
effect would be to render the Clergyman liable to the demand, ought to be the objects provided for by a Bill of the sort
and that on all hands was admitted to be unjust. He should, which lam now about to submit to your consideration. My
therefore, vote with the Government. If, on the other hand, Lords, I shall leave out all those cases of gross delinquency
Government should be enabled to propose an easy and unex- which have often been charged to exist in particular boroughs.
pensive machinery to draw a distinction between the defaulter I shall not advert to Ipswich, Norwich, and other such bo-
and him who had complied with the law, he should cheerfully roughs. These I shall, in my present statement, entirely
give it his support. leave out of consideration. Not, my Lords, as abandoning
The Committee then divided, them, but from considering that the case which I have to
For the clause
Against it
Majority
On our return to the Gallery we found that several clauses valent to a discussion on the second reading, that I should
had been agreed to without any discussion. 'rely. Whatever may have been the origin of these Corpo-
The remaining clauses, as amended, were then agreed to. rations, it is not my intention to enter upon any antiquarian
The House baring resumed, the Chairman reported pro- or historical consideration of them. I believe it is the best
grass,
opinion that they were in their origin in favour of liberty,
The Report was ordered to be received to-morrow (this ' and advantageous to commerce. But into that argument I
day).
shall not go. But what I say now is, that these institutions
On the motion of Sir J. CAMPBELL the Sheriffs Regulation are too narrow for the times and circumstances in which we
Bill was read a third time and passed. are placed, end that they are too narrow and confined for the
The Limitation of Polls at Elections Bill was read a third community over which they preside; that they are unfitted
time and passed.
to discharge satisfactorily the duties they have to perform ;
Lord J. RUSSELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to that they are not only unfitted to discharge those c'uties sa-
provide for 'the further reduction of the militia staffs in Great tisfactorily, but conduce to many other evils, many other
Britain and Ireland. It was proposed that the militia staffs dangers, and stand in the way of many other benefits ; and
should in some instances be reduced by one-third, by an order that, iii any opinion, instead of forming the bulwarks of inter-
of Majesty in Council. It was proposed to reduce the whole nal security, they form a source of peril, of hazard, and of
staff by one half. The inspeetors of the staff said that the danger.--( Cheers.) I will take by way of illustrating this
reduction was necessary. He hoped that next year he would opieion, the cases of three corporations only, against one of
be able to bring the whole subject before the House at an which a great deal has been alleged, and, it must be con-
earlier period of the session, in order to render the militia staff rested not altogether unreasonably, that corporation having
of the country more effective. certainly laid itself open to suspicion—very likely beyond what
Colonel WOOD considered the question a very important is strictly just—by refusing to give any account of its affairs.
one, and he hoped the Noble Lord would give them some idea These corporations arc in the capitals of three neighbouring,
as to the time when the matter would be fully discussed. and, indeed, contiguous counties. They are all flourishing
Lord HO WICK agreed with the Hon. and Gallant Officer towns, and ail of them towns of manufacturing and commer-
that the subject was one of great importance. Such a Bill cial importance. The mode of selecting the members of the
ought not to be read a second time without discussion, but corporations is preny nearly the same in all three ; and with
perhaps that discussion would come on under more favourable respect to the coincidence in the working of these corpora-
circumstances if it were deferred until the Bill was printed. tions, I, from my knowledge of that part of the country,
Colonel SIBTHORPE objected to the introduction of the Bill was struck with the fact long before this commission or
at that late period of the session, when so many Hon. Members this inquiry was thought of. These towns are Notting-
had left town. It was a most unjust, iniquitous, and partial ham, Leicester, and Derby ;—their circumstances coinciding
measure, and if the Noble Lord peasisted in introducing it he in many respects, but in many respects placed in very dii-
would move that the House do now adjourn. .. • ferent .situations. Over. one of these towns the influence of a
.
After a few words from Lords J. Russez.r. and Moarirrn leave very powerful family in this country has prevailed to a great
was granted, and the Dill was subsequently brought in, and read extent, and where political feelings of what are called the
fora first time.
Lord J. RUSSELL postponed his motion relative to the case of liberal side ( I use that expression not in an offensive sense, as
General Darling until to-morrow; after which the House ad- implying that those opposed to them are illiberal) have also
journed, at Half-past One.prevailed. The corporation of Nottingham has always been
a Whig and Dissenting Corporation. The Corporation of
Leicester, on the contrary, has always been, to use the lan-
guage of the day, of Tory and Conservative principles.
With respect to Nottingham (says the Report), the elec-
tors are pretty nearly self-elected :—The political character
of the select body, the exclusion of so many persons of re-
spectability and intelligence, the abuse of the corporate fran-
chise in the creation of freemen, the lavish and unprofitable
expenditure of the corporate revenues, the secrecy of tile
financial proceedings, the heavy weight of the local taxation,
and the withdrawal of the corporate funds from contributing
towards it, are so many causes of well-founded complaint,
which have alienated from municipal government, the con-
fidence and esteem of the inhabitants." I apprehend the filets
in that statement are such as cannot well be controverted.
Now, let us look at the Corporation of Leicester. The Re-
port describes the governing body of that Corporation " to
be a self-elected, close, and irresponsible body. The results
of this system have been highly unsatisfactory, and altogether
incompatible with tire legitimate objects of muncipal govern-
ment. In no Corporation has a more complete system of po-
litical exclusiveness existed than has prevailed in this. From
the Mayor, to the humblest servant of the Corporation, every
office has been filled by persons of the Corporation, or, sO
called, Tory party, to the total exclusion of all who enter-
tained different opinions, however wealthy, however intelligent,
however respectable. Yet the persons, entertaining different
political opinions from the Corporation, constitute, to say the
very least, an equal proportion of the ppelence and intelligence
of the town, and unquestionably form a nwppriCal Majgrity of
the population." Now as to the corporation of DeitY. 1143.2
again, is a town where cliffs:rent politics prevail from those pre-
vailing in Leicester; the House must allow, therefore, that

HOUSE OF LORDS, Acct.-sr 3.
The VICE-CHAsert.Loit took his scat on the Woolsack at
five o'clock.
Petitions against the Corporation Reform Bill were presented
by the Earl of Wicklow, from Nfaldon ; the Duke of Wel-
lington, from York and Henley-on-Thames; the Duke of
Newcastle, from Newark and Barnstaple ; the Marquis of
Hastiogß, from Huntingdon ; Lord Wharncliffe, from Liver-
pool ; Lord Skelsmerdale, from Newport ; the Marquis of
Salisbury, praying to be heard by counsel at the bar ; Lord
Lyndhurst, from Devizes, Chard, the Magistrates of Cam-
bridge, and Bridgewater.
The Marquis of TA VISTOCK presented a petition from
Cambridge, favour of the Bill.
Earl SPENCER presented a petition from Northampton in
favour of the Bill.

Petitions in favour of the Bill were presented by the Earl
of Radnor from Tewkesbury; by Lord Duncannon from Lyme
Regis; and Lord Melbourne from Boston, King's Lynn, Pres-
ton, Faversham, and Northampton.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH presented a petition from
Tewkesbury against the Bill, and from Gloucester, praying
that some provision might be made in the Bill to preserve
leases granted as they were in Gloucester.
Viscount MELBOURNE was aware that there were many
persons opposed to the clause alluded to, and he would have
no difficulty in agreeing to its being amended, so as to protect
all existing leases.

The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from Dart-
mouth, praying that ncne but Churchmen in the Town Coun_
cij might be put upon the Committee for distributing the

'the selectieu of these three CorporatiotWo of them beiig
Whig Corporations, and one a Tory Cerporatien—bas die'rn
made with strict impartiality. The Report, speaking of DerVi:
says r—" The Corporation of Derby has been almost ori-
fermly composed of persons Laving oae opinion upon political
subjects, and the anxiety of the Corporation to maintain the
ascendancy of their own optironsbas!ed them to create numerous
freemen for political purposes. In the year 1806, 124 honorary
freemen were made and sworn. In the year 1819, 132 were
admitted and sworn. It was stated that the Corporation,
whenever they thought the number of the freemen in their
interest getting low,' the mayor, or some other influential
member of the Corporation, applied to the• agent of the Ca-
vendish fantilv, and reque.teel a Est of the names of the per-
sons to be admitted as honorary freemen. The creation of
namerous honorary frermen by the Corporation had the effect
which was anticipated, for by this unfair and unjust proceed-
ing, a body of voters, subservient to the views of the Cor-
poration, held in check that portion of the inhabitants op-
posed to• the politics of the Corporation, and thus, for thirty
years before the passing of the Reform Bill, there was no
contest for the representation of the borough of Derby in
Parliament." It is unnecessary for me to read any more of
these Reports, because it is perfectly well known that the re-
sult is as I have stated. Now, my Lords, let me ask your
Lordships, what do you think of the working of such a system ?
—(Loud cheers)—a system which, in three great towns,
?laced in such different situations, and under such different
circumstances, has so entirely produced the same extensive
evils, the same bad consequences—that of the exclusion of
one-half of the inhabitants of these towns from all partici-
pation of authority—from all power or control over the funds
and local interests of these boroughs.—(Cheers.) I am
not very well acquainted with the interior statistics of these
towns, but I apprehend that the parties who arc thus
excluded from all participation in the local government
of them, are not in property, respectability, talents, or
means, less qualified to exercise the powers of government
than those who exclusively possess those powers. Now this,
in my mind, has always struck me as being one of the most
conclusive proofs of the necessity of making a consider-
able change and alteration in the system itself. The
manner in which that system works in these three important
towns, producing the same results, unmitigated and unchanged,
by any variation of circumstances, has always appeared to me
a subject that showed there was in the constitution of these
Corporations an inherent evil-L-a defect—a curse. which could
only be cured by resorting to principles of an opposite charac-
ter, and extending at least the source from which these Cor-
porations were to flow and have their rise. I will now, my
Lords, go to another town, of which we heard a great deal at
the bar of the House the other night—l allude to the city of
Coventry. In that city another state of circumstances exist.
It is, however, a remarkable fact, that the select body in
Coventry is composed of Whigs and Tories, pretty nearly in
equal numbers. The system, therefore does not work pre-
cisely in the same manner there as in other places, but
then the consequences and results are not in the least de-
;gree of a better description. Everybody knows what Co-
ventry is, notwithstanding all we heard at the bar the other
evening; and notwithstanding the possibility that the Com-
missioners may be wrong as to the mismanagement of the
school. That single fact was alone adduced by the Coun-
sel at the bar by way of impeaching the accuracy of the
Commissioners' Report, although there are in that Report
many other abuses pointed out, of a far more serious and
grievous nature. But although the Corporation is impartially
formed—though it is politically impartial—yet in that city
there are perpetual contests between the Corporation and the
rest of the inhabitants. There is no city in England that, in
fact, has been more disgraced by a system of electing members
of Parliament by fraud, corruption, and violence, than the
city of Coventry. There is no city which violence and
corruption have been carried to a greater extent, or in which
greater enormities have been committed. The Commissioner
who drew up the Report with reference to Coventry has, it
is true, stated that all these matters have been considerably
amended of-late years, and that the proceedings at elections
there are now much better conducted. But, my Lords, I own
that though these matters, to which I have directed your Lord-
ship's attention, have had great effect upon my mind, they
have not had so great an effect as what I was myself witness
to, when I held the seals of the Home Department, with re-
spect to Bristol. " The feeling that prevails in Bristol (says
the Report) with respect to the Corporation, appeared to be
of the most violent and exasperating nature." I entirely agree
with that statement. The Commissioners also state, " that
among all the quarrels and disturbances to which Bristol un-
unhappily has been exposed, among all the changes of parties,
the Corporation has always been the object of attack
and animosity;" and they add, "We are of opinion that
this feeling cannot permanently endure in any society
unless there is something essentially bad in the first prin-
ciples of its constitution." It is then said, " that mea-
sures of the most liberal character would not be popular,
if they were to originate with the Corporation." Mr.
Hogg in his protest, which has been furnished after some
difficulty, says, " No good man, no real well-wisher of the par-
ties themselves, can approve of the extreme hostility which
some of the inhabitants of Bristol, it is hoped but few of them,
seem to entertain for the Corporation of their ancient and
famous City, and for which the printed Report, although not
penned in a spirit of kindness, has displayed no adequate cause.
It was necessary to hear the evidence given on the trial at bar
of the information filed by your Majesty's Attorney-General
against Charles Raney._ Eso.,,sometime Mayor of the City of
Bristol, and to @nerve the temper with which it was &tvch, its
order to estimate correctly the insane malignity by which mis-
guided persons may sometimes be animated. To understand
how it may happen that the inhabitant should be willing his
house and goods should be consumed—that the tradesman
should be content to see his shop in flames—and that the ci-
tizen should rejoice to have his whole City wasted, so that the
Mayor and Justices might incur blame." This is very strong
language—more strong than I should use; but, my Lords, I
think it is true. I think there was that feeling in Bristol,
though I would not venture to state it. I think there was a
feeling of detestation entertained against the Corporation ;
that they were unwilling to repress violence—at least, before-
hand; and I think the language of Mr. Hogg is not stronger
than is warranted by the facts. Why, then, my Lords, it is be-
cause the Corporation has no community of feeling with the
public—it is because of its secret character and moue of pro-
ceeding ; and, above all, because of its exclusive nature and oli-
garchical character, that these evils are produced which threaten
the peace and security of the country.—(Cheers.) Why,
good God 1 my Lords, we have passed through troublesome
times, have seen a great deal of public excitement and public
tumult, but I can only say that I have felt much less fear
from Birmingham or 'Manchester, than I have from any town
where there was a Corporation, and for that very reason.
Great excitement has prevailed in Birmingham and in Man-
chester; but there was no local odium, no local hatred, no
local irritation, which are all far more violent than the hatred
and irritation arising from public and political ceases. In
places having Corporations, we have not only irritations
arising from the agitation of Parliamentary Reform, or the
amendment of the Poor-laws to guard against, but we have
the Corporations themselves to contend with. There we
have a peculiar clement of evil, an additional source of
danger—a system of things which, in fact, alienates the
great majority of the inhabitants from the King's Govern-
ment, and mskes them disposed, if not to disturb, at least
to wink and connive at the disturbance of the public peace.
It is for these reasons that I move your Lordships to go
into a Committee upon this Bill. Ido not know how it
may appear to your Lordships, but it appears to myself, my
Lords, that I have made cut a strong case upon general prin-
ciples in favour of this Bill.—( Cheers.) But I have left the
strongest case belind—and that is, the administration of jus-
tice. Justice is the air which we breathe, it is the health of
our lives ; if that be unjustly administered, or if it be irreme-
dially suspected, then for that community there is no satisfac-
tion, there is no peace, there is no happiness whatsoever. The
Noble. Lord proceeded to express his belief that justice was
not so corrupted even in the Corporation of cities as it was in
the small boroughs, which were convulsed with conflicting
political feelings. Their Lordships were aware of the strength
of those convulsions, and of the violence, hatred, and animo-
sities which accompanied them. They overturned the under-
standing, corrupted the feelings, and made men forget every-
thing that was just and right. Even their Lordships were
sometimes carried away by feelings of that nature ; but lie
was aristocratic enough, and knew enough of human nature,
to know that those feelings were ten thousand times more in-
tense in the lower classes of society. So strongly did they
operate that it was impossible to obtain justice from magistrates
its those towns at election times. The only inquiry made was
—on what-side was the party accused and accusing ? This
decided the matter, and not the principle of justice. But he
would not dwell further upon this. But this, in his opinion,
formed one strong ground on which to rest his case, and upon
which he called on the House to go into Committee on the
Bell. He knew that the Bill was demanded by the inhabitants
of all these towns ; lie believed it was asked for by a great ma-
jority of the people. At least their Lordships should attend
to that demand so far as to give it their mature, cool, and at-
tentive consideration. It was also asked for by the boroughs who
had petitioned against it; by the mouth of the Learned Counse`

who were heard at the bar, for both those Counsel ended their
speeches by stating that they were perfectly sensible that there
ought to be a reformation in these boroughs. Of course they
were instructed to speak in that manner by their clients.
They said that the Corporations ought to be put upon more
popular grounds ; that there ought to be an infusion of fresh
persons ; that they were perfectly sensible of the evils of the
existing system, and that it was desirable to produce a better
understanding between the constituents and those who repre-
sented them. The second Counsel who spoke said his clients
desired reform above all things, but they did not wish to take
it from his Majesty's Ministers (Hear, hear)— but they
wished to receive it from those who had not sworn the de-
struction of all corporations.—( Hear, hear.) This, he must
admit, was zn avowal of political sentiments free enough at
all events. But lie trusted their Lordships would not be ac-
tuated by those feelings, but would look at the measure it-
self, without considering the persons by whom it was intro-
duced, but considering only the grounds and reasons upon
which it was founded—( Cheers)—and whether it was fit
ting it should pass, in consequence of those reasons and
grounds. Great eulogiums had been passed upon the protest
of Sir Francis Palgrave ; but after all, the gentlemen at the
bar did not make any great use of that protest.—(Laughter,
and " Hear, hear.") He did not deny the ability of Sir F.
Palgrave ; he thought that Learned Gentleman had treated

the subject with gre-at talent, but to him (Lord Melbourne) it
i.ppeared that the opinions of Sir F. Palgrave were in per-
fect accordance with the principle of the Bill. :le did not,
therefore, care whether the Commissioners' Report, or the
protest of Sir F. Palgrave were taken, for they were identi-
cally the same. Sir F. Palgrave noticed every one of the
evils noted by the Commissioners—though he stated them per-
Papis in a somewhat more modified and limited manner—
licar; froai Apppiition)—and he points precisely at the
same remedies. Some obieivatiow had begil 4dp ppnfi that