The Sun.
London, England, 1832-04-10 00:00:00

ill be charged on the measure ; bet these anoni
es, my Lords, are insenerahte from any mode of proceed-
rig which bats for its principle that of retaining as much
possibte of what now exists. And, my Lords,
he only mode of obviating this objection, which, by-
•he •bye, is one which comes unfortunately from those
vho contend that we have ."One too much-
-he only mode of obviatittg TA is by doing still more.—
Hear, heat.) kt can only be effectually removed
ind made 'perfect in theory, according to those who
,ttend only to theory and principle, nod iset to rrac-
Vice, by having an entire new distribution ef Ap. elective
ranchise, for which purpose it would be necessary to di-
eide the whole coenney into electoral districts. This, my
Lreede, we have not chosen to do ; we have avoided on ex-
tensive a change, and preferred that the measure should be
subject to the charge of cortal/4.%ing anomalies, for the
purpose of retaining as much as possible of
what now 'hist& My Look, such is the ex-
tent of the change that has been effected in
that part of the bill which carries into effect the princ;ple of
disfranchisement. I will now proceed to enfrane:hiternent. My
Lords, if there be one part of the subject more than an-
ether on which I feet ton'atient I ant not exposed to any
serious 014ectiett, it is this, that to the great commcl'dal
maoofawaring towns which have risen durir-t! Ite last century
into importance, and have 3?;t2tned, many of them,
a population and a weat.h. equal to many capitals in Europe, it
is expedient and necessary that the right of suffrage
should be extended. My Lords, the towns that
are thus to be raised to the lien of representa-
tion are contained in echethilea C and 1), and here
also there are considetable alterations in the provisions of the
Bill. To the twelve new Members which it has been
deemed to add to these schedules, it has been olsiected
that that part of the Bill was most histV:y objectionable
43 increasing its democeaties tendency.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) My Lorttle, t could wish as far as I con, to
state any et:Sections that are made, and to meet and discuss
them candidly, both here and in Committee..._; Hear,
hear.) It has been said then, my Loads; that this addi-
tion will insrease the democratic tendency of the measure_
But admitting in the first place, which Ido net, that
these boroughs are, all of them, to be considered as
totally separated from the fended interest,—and here
I must allude to this as an unfortunate separation
between the commercial, manufacturing, and agricultural
interests of this country, in which the objection ori-
ginates, fhr no one, my Lords, is more cntvinced,
I am satisfied, th,u the person now addressing you, of
the inseparable connexion of each with the mutual
advantage and prosperity of all these interests ;—tak-
ing this tee be the effect, I 'void(' answer in the
first place, that the addition of twelve reel:Macre thus created
to those towns is counterbalartretl by the eleven towns taken
out of schedule B, whtll keep one member each, as corn.
pared with the termer Bill, and which will be con-
nected thlerty with the landed and egricullnial
interests. But, my Lords, I would •ny that the Mem-
bers coming from thorn ',nails wilt be exclusively
manufacturing tir oinmercial. That the Members
connected with these towns will be charged with the care
of that interests, is indisputable; but neighbouring pro-
prietors will, undoubtedly, as at present, have the chief
influence. It would be seen, my Lards, if the subject
were investigated, that in such places the persons
connected with the landed interests, many of them connec-
ted with year Lordships by the nearest relations, have sate,
and do sit, as their representatives of such places in Parlia-
ment, It is not to be presumed that the representation
of these pleena must necessarily ha of a democratic
nature. But it will be, as it now is, that after all,
those connected with the great interests of the country
will have the lead in the representation, and no shame
need take place, nor any &neer be apprehended by this
change in the C estitution of Parl;amett, which, as I
have before stated, is a change felinded on an-
cient precedent and the established principles of the
Constitution. And here) must caution you against one mis
take it is generally presumed that the returns of elections
wilt ast ail times be the same, as they arc in tames of po-
pularagitation. We are not to priga, my Lords, of what willbe
the effect of returns hereafter, by the effect now produced when
the question of Parliatnentary Reform has been so much agitated.
This ettestien disposed of, my real and firm conviction
is, that things will settle into their former course,
and that property, rank, station, and good conduct will
resume their influence-e-cHear,)—but if, my Lords, rank,
station, and property are not, as they ought to he, connected
with good conduct, why ought they to be connected with
that influence, which legitimately belongs to them, and
which in my opinion to the advantages of the coun-
try, they ought to possess P Passing that, however,
it is not necessary, it is not fair, to suppose that
this representation will be one of unmixed demo•
cratic tendency ; that the representation will he
so far connected with manufacturing and commercial
interests, as will give them security of atten-
tion to them, is not to be doubted. And, my Lords,
When you consider what have been the growth
and progress of this interest, the grooving and increasing
prosperity of these towns-, will it be said that 64 members,
the number of schedules C and D, are 100 much to repre-
sent that important interest, which, in connexion with
other interests of thecoun try, are inseparable from its wealth
and power ? On the general principle of enfranchisement
I have now, my Lordo perhaps said enough ; and
on the particular alterations that have taken place, I
have dwelt perhaps sufficiently at length, as an opportunity
will be given for that purpose upon going into Committee,
where this subject will be bet'er considered, and provided
for, I trust, in a way most consistent with the general sa-
tiefattien and the promotion of the welfare of the
nation. My Lords, the next great principle to which
I will advert, and which constitutes the true and legitimate
character of this Reform Bill, is the extension of
the right of voting. My Lords, on the general
principle on which that proceeds, I feel myself
called upon to say a few words. I ought to state to
your Lordships that I am confining myself chiefly at pie-
sent to what has been done in the way of alteration.
The county representation is not altered, and I may, perhaps,
presently say something on it. But in my present review of
the subject, as much as possible to save your Lordships' time
and spare myself unneci ssary fatigue, I abstain altogether
from going into those principles of the measure which were
before discusee:4, or upon those p articular provisions of the
Bill which retrain unaltered. But in respect to the 101.
franchise, it was stated before by a Noble Earl, whom I
see opposite, on presenting the Oxford petition,
that in the petition—(Loud cries of hear, hear,)--
which, by the bye, did by impication, if not by direct
admission, certainly give a sanction to the principle of
Reform, one complaint was, that there was a new
right of voting introduced unknown to the Constitution,
and sweeping away all former rights. The objection
was founded first of all in the idea that the right
of voting proposed was unknown to the Con-
stitution ; next, that it was introduced at the
expense of existing rights; and a third ground of
objection was its uniformity. This embraced two asser-
tions equally unfounded in truth. In the first p'ace, that the
principle was unknown to the Constitution; secondly, that
it interfered with, and tended to the destruction of other
rights. As to the latter objection, it affects, sofar as I know,
no other rights. The county right of voting in freeholders,
remains unaltered. The right of freemen to vote, which
was secured by the last 8.11 to the present possessors
during the existence of their natural lives, is extended
to their descendants, and to those who could obtain
their right by servitude for ever. (Hear.) These rights,
therefore, instead of being swept away are preserved ; but,
my Lords, that the principle is unknown to the Constitu-
tion, I directly and fearlessly deny. I maintain not
only that it is not a principle unknown to the
Constitution, but that it is the ancient principle recog-
nized by the Constitution of Parliamentary representation.
My Lords, I am almost ashamed • to trouble your
Lordships on this point, which was so well
brought forward on tie last occasion by my
Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack ; but
as the assertion has been repeated, I must return to
it. That Noble Lord has referred to the authority of
Mr. Serjeant Dunstable, who stated that if a new writ
was to be issued,—and lie called upon any lawyer to
contradict him in that statement if he could,—that
where a writ was issued to those great towns
to which it is proposed by the present Bill to give the
right of representation, ipso facto, the householder
of the borough would be the person who would return
the writ. Now, my Lords, this right of voting of the
householders is time ancient English right, and what
in fact, my Lords, does this. Bill do ? Why, it
introduces this right of voting, but with great limitations.
It limits it to the inhabitant householders within the
borough, provided they can show that they have
been occupiers, for a certain time previous to the election,
of tenements of the actual value of ten pounds.
This, my Lords, so far from being the intro-
duction of a new right, is a limitation of an ancient
one, and one that can be safely adopted by your
Lordships. This right of voting, my Lords,
is nothing more than the scot and lot right of voting,
affixing to it however limitations of the annual
value of 101. and also that the rent and taxes should
be paid ate to a certain time previous to the
right being given. But, however, my Lor.ls,
it is stated that there are general objections to
this which I shall endeavour to combat, but I wish, my
Lords, in the mean time to advert to the alterations which
have been made in this part of the present Bill. By the
.ormer Bill it was intended the tight of voting should
belong to the 10/. householders, but there tract a different •
mode of ascertaining the right. There are four modes

•f aqeertaining this right, eithrt• by being rated at ten
pounds, paying taxes to atnotnt of t,n pouals,

or rent to the 'arms nittount, or by vote by ballot. The
reasons, iny Lords, for adopting the alterations were,
,hat it was thought that it would simplify the
mode of ascertaining the v due, and would gu and
,nore effectually against the practising of deeeit;—(llear.)
Now, my Lords, it has E, et iaid that there
would be. very reat dAcUlty in, ascertaining the
value. 'that, my Lords, I do not think will, beat). Nothing
more is contemplattd by this Dill than What tal'es place a*
ll county elections. Th.r h 5 there depends upon per.
sons holding freehold of forty shillings—the value
then has to be ascertained.—(flear, ihcar.)—
and I have not heard, my Lords, that there has been
any great difficulty hitherto in ascertaining that
fact. Hut, my Lords, it has been thought that more
effective modes might have beet adopted to reform alms...
I am net, my Lords, ware of any; but if there are,
I sholtlat he very *Minty, to lend every assistance
to the adop-ion of thorn, with this proviso,
that it shall not fatter tha extent of the qualification.
As I have heft:4! slid, my Lords, I think there will be
no very great difficulty in this respect. I have already.
stated to your Lordships that there is no great difficulty in
ascertaining the value of treenolds at county elections,

and that
_Witt`, respect to the votes of the guar.
diam CX the poor at Norwich no difficulty had
been experienced. I know, my Lords, that it has been
proposed by snme that this should be substituted by a
proof that rates to the value of 10/.. hake Geri paid ;
but, my Lords I tlAin tip Csvould not be expe.
altd e'Lli be proved to be totally unne-
cessary. In the first place I believe, in Lords,
it is the custom in great towns to let houses according to
their actual value; in some the rate is taken at three-
.

Ifourths, in others atthrecefiftbs, and in some at tiro-third.;
and therefore with respect to that, there might be
t same difficulty, bitt to Make out the value, that• is
not necessary. The overseer of the poor knows how
the Loose!: ace assessed to the poor, and he can ascertain
generally the value of the tenement for which the rates are
paid. I say therefore, my Lords, that you have here a
criterion that goes far to obviate fraud and abuse, and
whith will enahle you to ascertain the value easily.
I think, therefore, my Lords; the provision introduced into this
Bill, will te tffectual; but any thing that can be pointed out
id secure that object more effectually, I shall be most happy to
take into consideration. Now, my Lords, it has been stated
that this is liable to further abuse ; but if any thing
can be stated as more effectually obviating that
th'ase, I shall be most happy to concur in it.—
Except in very few places indeed, not above six or sevtn
at the most, the Constituency created under this
mode was not at all excessiVe. One fallacy prevailed
with th public, they supposed that all those
peitObs who were entered as qualified tenants
would be able to vote at the election. It must be con-
sidered that many of these would be absent, many would
be widows, and many not otherwise possessed of the
right of voting. Probably the persons actually voting
might be taken at only one fourth the total number. It
must be observed, that this provision does not contain
exclusively the 101. houses, for it contains all those above
101 , great many of which are of such a higher de-
scription of value that no man would think of ex-
cluding them from the tight of voting. The total
number of boroughs in which this right of voting *II
be possessed, will be from 3 to 500. There will be
115 in which the constituency will not exceed 30.;
from 80 to 100, 68 ; front 100 to 500, 100. There was
nothing very alarming in this. From 500 and upwards,
only 30. Except in the London districts, the highest is
that of one thousand twit hundred. Your Lordships will
not to reason to apprehend that this privilege of returning
Members to Parliament by persons who hive a rental of
101., subject to rates and assessed taxes, can be one that
threatens any of those dangers by which it has been endea-
voured to alarm the public mind. If there is nothing in the
numbers, is there any thing in the quality of the persons
admitted to the right of British citizens? Those who pos-
sess tenements above 101. have given a pledge to the com-
munity for their good conduct by their habits of industry.
I trust, then, in contending for this enfranchisement,
as one of the material principles of the Bill, it will
be seen that care has been taken to guard against
the operation of this tneaeure in producing any of the
consequences which it has been supposed were likely
to ensue. I trust it will he further considered
that there must be also a residence and occupation of
one year to entitle a person to vote. The period
cannot be less than a year, and it might be much more.
(Ileer, hear.)—After all the consideration I have been
able to give the subject, I do not apprehend that any diffi-
culty or danger is likely to be experienced from this ; more
especially when I consider that in the present scot and lot
boroughs, occupations are only required for six months
instead of twelve. My Noble Friend has stated
that a large measure of Reform is required.
That is the case, and I sty that :my great measure
of Reform likely to give satisfaction to the country,
must be founded on the principle I hate just laid down.
But the Noble Earl also objected to the uniformity of this
franchise. Now, I hold uniformity prima facie and
per se to be a great advantage, for it leads to great facility
in execution. The objection to uniformity trust rest
upon this—that uniform right of voting will confer the
franchise upon one particular description of interest. If
this were ti ue, I should admit, uniformity, was an evil,
but it is not true. The uniform right of voting esta-
blished by the Bill is beneficial, as tending to sim-
plicity and facility in execution ; but th ugh the right
be uniform, the possesiiin is rarious. We "''''t
recollect that the rank, the habits, the interests, the
character, and the dispositions of all persons possessing this
right will vary according to the different circumstances in
which they are placed. The 10/. voters of Liverpool
and Manchester will be a different description of
persons from the ten pound voters of Guildford
and Dorchester.—(Hear, hear.) In one place they will
be conitnercial, in another manufacturing, and in a third
agricultural. In some, perhaps, as Chatham and
Plymouth, they will be subject to the influence of
the Government. That may, however, be an objection ;
but I state it to show that although the right be uniform
the possession is various, and will be given to all descriptions
of persons in the community ; thus producing that effect which
all must wish who desire to have a real, and not a
nominal representation ; namely, a fair representation
of all the interests of the country. I think I have already
trespassed too long upon your Lordships' time; but I have
now detailed the three great principles of this Bill
which are said to constitute revolution, but which
I say are great and proper principles of Reform,. and
upon which I think this Bill may be beneficially and
safely carried into a law. My Lords, there are
provisions of the Bill, differing from the last,
which have been introduced, chiefly with a view
to meet the objections which were entertained by
many to that which was before under our considera-
tion. Its the first place, the numbers of the House of
Commons are to remain unaltered, the Members
of which representing England and Wales being
reduced only by the number of representatives which
have been added to Ireland and to Scotland. In the next
place, the right of . voting exercised by freemen, instead
of terminating withtheir lives, is to be continued to all who
acquire it by birth or servitude. In the third place, the
boundaries of boroughs, instead of being decided by Com-
missioners, are to be provided for in the Bill now before the
Commons, which will be necessary to give effect to that part
of the Bill. Some subordinate regulations have been in-
troduced, but as they do not affect the principles of the Bill,
they are undoubtedly matters lot consideration in Committee.
I have left behind me the paper to which I intended
to refer, but I can state generally the contents of it.
There will be 144 county Members ; the old boroughs,
including those now in Schedule B, will return 264 Mem-
bers ; and the new boroughs will return 64 Members :
making in all 472 Members : to which we have to add
three county Members given to Wales, and one to a Welch
borough—making (with the former twenty-four Mem-
bers for that Principality) twenty-nine Representatives
for Wales, and altogether five hundred Miimbers for Eng
land and Wales. Now, with respect to the relative pro
portions of the different parts of the kingdom, I do not be-
lieve that England and Wales will lose any of their just
influence by giving up thirteen Members to Ireland and
Scotland ; for surely five hundred Members out of 658
are sufficient to maintain them in that station which their
importance rightfully clahns. But how stands the argu•
anent with respect to the agricultural interns.? I am
prepared to contend that the 141 county Members wili
belong to that interest, and that out of the 264 old bo-
rough Members there will be just as large a proportion
as ever in favour of the landed proprietors ; there will
then only remain the 64 new Members; and it seems to
me, that even should the whole of these fal; to the lot of
the commercial and manufacturing interests of the country,
it will be a share to which those interests are justly en-
titled, when we take into consideration their importance as
regards the well-being of the country. These ate the prin-
ciples and the alterations which have been made in conse-
quence of the objet t ors which were raised to the mea-
sures which were last year before your Lordships. Having
now
I have endeavoured as tar as I could; and it I have not
executed the intentien, I ref ret it sincerely, and I ask you!
i7si ,' I ded
that all
i feel
I had
all
theto importance say, I
beg
of my to assure your
situation
L
Lordships' pardon for it, but I have endeavoured, a, far
as I could, to avoid any thing which could excite
,unplea-
lent feelings, which could produce unpleasant se utationit.
I wish to introduce this measure in such a manner, and

to discuss it in such a manner, as to divest it of all former
prejudices, of all party spirit, and of all asperity, and to
proceed with consideration and calmness, and to unite
in one general desire to achieve the public good. It
is in this temper that I have wished to introduce this
neasure. lam sensible I have wed With sincerity, and I
em the more sensible of iti.Whete I remember the great inte-
rests which depend; upon thin question. They are in •
terests which affect the internal peeve of this country, its
manufacturing prosperity, and the security of its fit-
s reign relatiors.—(Cheer-.) I need not tell your Lordships
this, for you must all he aware that those interests must he
be materially affected by the long continued sus-
pence in which the public mind has been kept—fflear)
by the discussion of this question, His Majesty's
Ministers were tiot to blame fur this snspense, nor will
I impute the blame to thdr who thoilght it theii• duty
to oppoSe the measure. All I desire is, that it shall be now
discussed in such a manner as to bring it to a speedy
termination. The opportunity is afforded which I trust will
not be lost, for it may not be very easy to recovs r
it again.—(Cheers.) I have been accused of using
toe language of intimidation ; but . nothing was ever
farther from my wish than to influence your Lordships
by any unworthy fears on a question which should be de-
cided by your calm judgment. I wish testate to your Lord-
ships that no influence, no authority, no power on earth
can be wisely set up in deft knee of public opinion,—(Loud
cheers.) I counsel your Lo?rslships no!: to yield to the
exot bit.nt and unreasonable demands of clamour;
but I also state that the deliberate sentiments of
discreet and intelligent people, entertained only
after long refl ction, are entitled to your at-
tention, and give me leave to say to your respect.
I feel deeply all the. conseqUences of a 'ejection
of ;his measure to the country, to your Lordships,
and to myself--to the country, as it is connected with
all the interests on which its power and prosperity depend,
and to your Lordships to whom the people look with con-
fidence, reverence, and respect. I have been told
that the people no longer look upon the question
with the same eyes as they did before ; but I
s:eny the truth of that assertion. (He kr, hear.) They are
silent; but they look with no less anxiety to the
deliberations of this evening—they are silent, not from
such causes as have been attributed to them ; but
solely from an unextinguished hope that your Lordships
will grant that for which they have so earnestly prayed.—
I believe the silence which has prevailed of late
throughout the country, on this measure, to be the
effect of a latent hope that your Lordships will not
reject the BO!, and give up the people to despair.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) These, my Lords, are my views on this
important question ; and I ant sensible, that no matt
ever stood before Parliament under the same weight
of personal responsibility that now rests on me.
In the course of this proceeding I have been subject to
much undeserved suspicion, which I hope I never
shall deserve. I have prop.ksed what I thought
would be the best for my Sovereign and my country:
and it has been a measure which is now generally ad-
mitted to be necessary, and with respect to which, the only
difference of opinion is, as to the sxtent of it.—(Cheers.)
Upon that 1 have exercised the best judgment I had.
I believed, (to use the words of my Noble and Learned
Friend) that a large measure of Reform—an efficient
measure of Reform—such as would meet the just expec-
tations of the people, was necessary, if wished to ena-
ble this country to resume that peaceful and prosperous
situation to which it is impossible for it to return, so long
as this agitation and anxiety pervade the public mind.
My Lords, I knew well the difficulties that I should have
to encounter ; but I was led by my sense of duty to disre-
gard them. I hope that I may be allowed to say, that in
all the progressive stages of this measure, I have never
deviated from that steadiness of purpose which I believed
would finally lead to success; and that, as on the one
hand, I have not been deterred by threatened difficulties,
from proposing this Bill, so, on the other, I have not suf-
fered myself to be forced by clamour into the prosecution
of it by means to which 1 could not in my better judg-
ment consent.—(Hear.) Under there• circumstances, and
feeling that this may possibly be the last time that I shall
h sve to press this measure on your Lordships' attention,
I must confess that I look with something like hope to
:hat which appears to be a sort of approach to a favoura-
able decision on the part of this Howe. If, however, on
the other hand, I should sink under the struggle, I shall
at least have the consolation of feeling th it I did, to the
best of my judgment, that which I thought right and fit-
ting, regu:ating my actions according to the sincere dic.
rates of my conscience, with the one sole object of effect-
ing that which should be b, at calculated to promote the
interests of my country. All that I pray for is, that if
misfortune is to follow this measure, it may be confined to
one—that I tray be the sole victim of it. I pray that
my sovereign, my country, and your Lordships, may re-
main untouched ; and above all, though your Lordships may
be enabled to form that uniod with the people which is so
necessary to the welfare of the whole, as well as to that
sentiment upon which your Lordships' influence, and
weight in the country, are based. My Lords, I have
now only to move that this Bill be read a second time.—
(Cheering.)
Lord ELLENBOROUGH bore testimony to the fair
and impartial manner in which the Noble Earl had made
his statement to the House ; but though he was disposed
to pay every respect to the observations which had been
delivered, he was still bound to say that he had not heard
anything advanced by the Noble Earl which was celcula-
I d to induce him (Lord Ellenborough) to vote for the
second reading of this Bill He was not at all disposed to
deny that the Bill had been sent to the Upper House by
a large majority of the House o! Commons, who, in their
turn, were backed by a large majority in the country.
But the question with him was, whit faith ought to be
put in the measure itself ; for I;e thought that it was but
a poor argument to say that a principle must necessarily be
a good one, because it was supported by superior numbers.
Now, it certainly was a remarkable f set, that the principal
clause in this measure—he meant the ten pound qualifica-
tion—had been altered no less than eleven times—
(Cheers)—and yet a year and a half ago they had
been told that this eleven times altered clause, together
with the remainder of the Bill, had received the final
sanction of the people of England.—( Hear, hear.) In ad-
dition to which, it was positively true that at the very
last moment prier to the Bill being brought to the House
of Lords this unchangeable measure had a county Member
struck away and a borough Member added—(Cheers)—
besides which, no less than forty-seven changes with re-
spect to schedule B had taken place since that schedule
was first introduced to the notice of Parliament. After
such changes and diversities as these, he begged to
ask whet there was to induce him to obey the call
of his Majesty's Ministers, and give his consent to
this, which happened to be the last emanation of
their fluctuating minds ?—(Cheers.) The Noble Ea.!,
in his opinion, had put the question on its true ground ;
it was neither snore nor less than whether they should
vote for the second reading of this Bill. If they refused
to allow the Bill to he read a second time, what would be
the consequence? There would be proposed to the House
in its place, the Bill of the Noble Duke (Buckingham); and
certainly, after what fell from the Noble Duke on the
subject of the measure which he had to propose, he did not
at all see how the Noble Eirl was warranted in drawing
the conclusion which he had with respect to it ; and at
all events he (Lord Ellenborough) was anxious that their
Lordships should know what would be the result if they
departed from that which, six months ago, they had. by
their votes so wisely effected. The Noble Earl had told
them that the majority of the House of Commons were
backed by the majority of the people ; and be (Lord Ellen-
borough) had already admitted that such was the ease.
But it might, perhaps, be worth while to pause for a mo-
ment for the purpose of investigating of whom that majo-
trhitey
ne.obflosieistbeoty
of
Tf htehtlersivt phairgt o.frit,httettermeeayj,orti,t,ygectohnesristewditohf
their dependents and adherents,—(Hear.)—and yet these
Noblen nEarlg
them-
selves hi m
mo
to talgie ree al()teed f a g
on any general principle of Reform; added to which
lee (Lord Ellenberrsugh) would take the liberty of remind-
ing their Lordships, that about the 8 ime time nearly the
self,
pweerrse nut fiyv head years ha
t as
l they
hole of them, with the exc-ption of the Noble Lord
hims 14 had joined the Administration of Mr. Canning,
who, to the very lest, was opposed to all Reform what-
ever. The next portion of the majority in favou: of
the Reform Bill was the Irish Roman Cathodic party,
And on what principle had they joined the Noble Earl?
Why, they had said, as plain as tongue could speak, " It
is the Noble Earl's turn now, but ours wi I come next;
and that, too, by the dissolution of that very union which
the Noble Earl says must cause a dissolution of the empire.
--(Hear, hear, hear.) The next portion of this majority
was formed by those who, since 1793, had unceasingly
advocated every principle that was subversive of good Go-
vernment and the Constitution—a set of men who for a
season had happily been lost in the shades of obscurity,
from which they had emerged on the broaching of this
question, for the purpose of of proclaiming themselves its
leaders and its wannest advocates.—(Hear, hear.) The
next portion of the majority was made up of the poorer
classes of society; and why had these joined in the general
cry? Because they had been told that Reform would give
them cheap bread ; that it would produce a change that
would raise them from their present unfortunate condition
that it would, in short, open the door to a revolution to
which, desperation was Filling to look forw4oas,, its only
remedy—(Hear, hear)—and thus it was that these poorer
classes had been deluded by the false representations of

,

fa
l
th
th
l
;leides
majorfriends.eeesegnre:e.tswhose
ity;
itiiovii
irt
rheeolislnouspatatttvei
:hntfeaegddas
psoidal:iitrstrlhyspa:rooshgse:Eeet
woecwoilafarasd:st
aslocia
sieuo:sf
i.ewcrti
persons
etne iil
is filling
ja;gt:
nietn:tot different
tarii
oi portionseditmaisheoi
esk admit
sum
ev
1 conduce to the public. interest and to the securiiN'
of those establishment% which had hitherto been
supported by the affection and esteem of all those
who loved their country. But amongst this latter
class was there no change of sentiment ? Was the Noble.
Earl the only man in the House who had not read the his
tory of the late Doreetshire election ?—(llear, hear.) Was
there any man ignorant why Mr. Portman still remained
the representative cf that county ? or, rather, was it net
generally kn'dwii that it o?.iy arose froth the fear that,
sheirld that Hen. Gentleman yesign, another Tory Mem-
ber would elected for that county ?......(Cheers.) With
these facts on his side, ne thought that he was justified in
saying, that the opinions of more respect able persons had,
to a certain degree, changed since last October; and yet,
even then, their Lordal.ips had felt it to be their duty to
act according to their own sentiments, and nut accord-
ing to popular clamour—to act for the people, and not
with them—(Cheers)—and therefore he could not at all
understand on what grounds the House was, on the present
occasion, to consent to the second reading of the Bill.
Whale upon this subject of the change of popular opinion,
he would ask, whether no Addresses h ad been presented to
the Crown indicative of that change? In fact, it ivete by
this time pretty well known by all who moved in society,
that the majority of those who possessed property in
the country were against the Bill. Whether, how-
ever, his Majesty had heard the purport of these Addresses,
was another question ; that he did not know ; but this he
knew—that great pains hail been taken to prevent that
information reaching the head of the State. The Noble
Earl, however, had told their Lordship that the public
agitation had by no means diminished s but he bad as-
sured them, that if the Bill once passed into a law, it
would altogether cease. He (Lord Ellenborough), how-
ever, believed that the very contrary would be the case;
for there was in this measure the settling of no question
whatever. The present measure had been compared to
the last Bill, and in his estimation it was much worse ;
and he thought the worse of it from the fact, that it pro-
fessed to say that only a certain number of boroughs were
disfranchised—that its framers took credit to themselves
for having proposed the disfraechisement of only a limited
number of boroughs. The effect, however, of that limi-
tation was, that it restrained that House much more than
the former Bill, for that left them opera, while this spe-
cified the number of boroughs. Here was indisputatily
an alteration far which no reason had been assigned—no
reason whatever why the arbitrary number of 56 should
I .se all their representatives, and 30 be deprived of one halt.
He confessed it did appear to him no matter of surpa ise that
Noble Lords should find themselves at a loss to assign any
principle of justice open which to found such an altera-
tion. He should now beg their attention to some of the
objections which had been tak.-n to the existing cha•
racter and quality of our Parliamentary representation,
and especially the influence of the boroughs which ti.e
framers of the present measure proposed to abolish. They
were accused as the sources of every corruption in the
State—of long warsof public distress—of commercial
difficulty—and of every imaginable vice that could be
charged upoir any frame or constitution of Government.
Without entering into any very Minute particulars of the
grounds upon which the continued representations of t,,e
boroughs, contained in Schedules A and B might be advo-
cated, he should just beg to notice the class of persons
whom they sent into the other House of Parliament. In
the first place, they returned forty sons of Peers, only
fifteen of whom were returned by their fathers or bro•hers.
He recollected how eloquently on the discus-ion of the
fernier Bill t'.e Noble Earl behind him—the bent fit of
whose support he did rapt expect than night—had de-
fended the practice of the sons of Peers occupying sea's in
the other House of Parliament; and the more the grounds
upon which that practice came to be examined the more.
stable and excellent must they appear. A large and most
important portion of the aristocraerCame there to associate
with men of large general information and of talents highly
cultivated, who r iised themselves without the aid of here-
ditary privilege. Let the House only loek to the names of
the persons filling up the list of forty Members ; he should
mention a few—there were Lord Lowther, Lord Mellon,
Lord Stormont, Lord Porchester, and Mr. Wortley.
Of the last-mentioned Gentleman, who was not long asso-
ciated with him in a public office, be was enabled ro
speak in the highest terms ; and of the Noble Lords re-
ferred to he need say nothing, f r they were well known
to the public for ability, industry, and every qualification
which could fit them to, make able Membtre of the House
of Commons ; and
.yet lay the new Bill they would be re-
moved, and the places which sent them declared unworthy
and inc.p.able of sending Representatives to Parliament.
In that list of 40 there were a certain number which re-
turned Officers of the Army, or men who, though not
now or recently pursuing, the military profession, were
nevertheless so much identified with the Army, that they
were, in feeling and sentiment, soldiers ; and these includ d
sixteen sons of Peers. Amongst the names of the other
military men he found Sir Colquhoun Grant, Sir E. Ker-
rison, Sir Wm. Pringle, and Sir Henry Hardinge; yet
every one of those would be removed by the Bill, and with
them would go Mr. Attwood, Mr. Sadler, and other dis-
tinguished Members of that class. The country by such
a chan e would lose such Members in the other House as
the Ire Attorney and Solicitor General, the Solicitor
General for Ireland, Sir Charles Wetherell, Sir John Ni-
chol!, Dr. Lushington, Mr. Pemberton, Mr. Macauley,
and many em nent Members of the Legal Profession ; it
would lose too et large majority of those Representatives
connected with India. The remaining Members returned
by the places to be disfranchised by the new measure in-
clud,cl twenty-seven gentlemen of large landed property
—men, whose character and whose estate in the country
paced them above all suspicion ; and there remained
thirty-nine persons possessed of property in the Funds, in
land, anal otherwise, which gave them a deep interest in
all that related to the well-being of the country; and at the
head of the whole was the Noble Lord, the Secretary fir
Foreign Affairs, who, when rejected by the University of
Cambridge, found refuge (a remarkable coincidence) in
the very same borough which received Sir Robert Peel
when he ceased to represent Oxford. The Constitution,
as it at present stood, gave the means of sending repre-
sentatives into the House of Commons under the circum-
stances which he had described; but he confessed he knew
no means by which that object could be obtained, and sure
he was teat the Bill of the Noble Earl opposite would give
them no substitute for that of which it deprived them.
Trey have been referred to remote periods for precedents
to justify the measure which was now so importunely
pressed upon their adoption. At this period England had
no colonies, no public debt, no cormn.ree, and by a happy
capacity of adapting itself to changing circumstances, the
Constitution, as it had been :up to the present moment,
afforded the means of giving full and adequate representa-
tion to every one of the trauing, commercial, shipping,
and colonial interests, and all others to which the complex
state of society in this country gave rise. But the
new Constitution which was to be obtained under the
Reform Bill not only put an end to all present means
of continuing such a species of representation, but
shut out all chance of it fur the future. There was
no one who looked to the past history of Parlia-
ment, who could for a moment deny that the practical
business of the country was done by the men who sat for
those so much calumniated boroughs; and the last gene •
rat election afforded a remarkable illustration of the
position for which he was contending, for not one of thov
to whom the franchise was specially continued had on that
occasion returned a man of abilty. But setting aside for
the preseut those individual and particular grounds upon
which he might defend the old and much calumniated
system, he would ask who: the successive Governments,
supported by the Memheas returned under that syatetn,
had done from 1822 to 1830, the latter year being that
in which the present advisers of the Crown came inn
office ? In those eight years 15,500,000/. of taxes had
bran repealed, arid, by the strict maintenance of public
faith, the interest of the debt had been reduced by
4,000,000/. ; 4,500,0001. had been taken off the public
expenditure; fur thousand offices were also reduced
within that time, and the last Government alone bad
taken off more than 1,000,0001. of taxes; again, in the
same period, the exports had increased twelve million•
and a half, the imports fifteen millions, the coasting trade
one million. Those were the figures upon which the case
rested ; those were merely the arithmetical portion of the
argument; what remained ? The criminal lave bad been
revised and undergone important improvements; altera-
tions of great advantage were introduced into the civilt
process; our commercial cede underwent important mod"-
fications and were in accordance with the views of the pre-
sent advisers of the Crown; the state of the currency was
placed upon what he, ae well as they, considered to be the
only safe basis. Then the corn laws were permanently
settled upon a footing, the only permanent
_eine, namely,
that which involved a principle of compromise. In many
of the affairs of life, a compromise afforded the best mode
of settlement ; but had it not been received as axiom us
politics, that detiaccretic Governments scarce ever ad-
mitted a compromise; for however right they might be in
principle, they generelly pushed their principles to Al ex-
treme. But to proceed with the otheiernereaures adopted
'in the much-censored state of the House of Cettnnot s.
In
the period to which he ref...at-% ',tee Test Act as r.-

pealed, the Catholic Beret' Bill was passed; anti civil and
religious liberty plan •d on a IT:pis that •could not he ob•
jected to even. by -the Nub e Lords opposite- theniselve4.
lie would not in‘iat—for it was a fact too obvious
celt nu—that the • welfare and prolperity of the people
had never been raised to a higher point. .tt niti,•there-
iore, as unjust as it was un rue to impute to a Parlia-
went, elected according to tl•e ancient Constitution, those
views of which it was accused by the promoters of the
present Bill. One of the main grounds taken up by those ,
Noble Lords was the corrupt influence of the Crown. Hoof
did that influence operate at the present moment? At
the beginning of the reign of George I. there were 276
Ntembers of that House dependent upon the Crown.
At the beginning of the reign of George IL the number
was reduced to 256 ; at the beginning of the reige
of George lit: to 20t1; And iy , this
,day they
were not more than 50. In the meanwhi:e the
of public opinion had arisen, and the influence of
the Press established ; but still the Noble Earl demanded,..±.

change, though he must altogether have failed in any at-
tempt to show what Parliament had done, or ommitted to
do, that would have called for such a sweeping altera-
tion. Did the Noble Earl or his colleagues expect that a
Parliament reformed as they looked forward to reforming
the anise of Cotninone, would agree to measures to which
former Parliaments had refused to assent? Then in such
ulterior measures were in contemplation, the promoters of
the Bill should come forward and candidly state them.
Let them tell the nation what a netarrfied Parliament
would agree to at their instance, which Parliament, as ai
present constituted, refused to adopt? Did they expect
that a tax would be imposed upon the transfer of stock in
contravention of repeated Acts of the Legislature, and in
violation of all good faith? Did they expect that the ex-
port of cotton, the production of wines at the Cape, and
the Timber trade of Canada, would all be placed upon a
new fuming? if those were their objects, they ought to
come forward and explicitly say so, and then, and not be-
fore, their Lordships would know to what purpose they
were legislating. Amongst the various complaints against
the present system was one, that it caused much of the
public distress, and that was a sentiment which he regret-
ted to think had in some quarters gained ground, fur it was
to the utmost degree erroneous. For a long time past the
prosperity and the distress of this country depended upon
circumstances altogether extraneous, and upon causes which
pettier the people nor the Government of this country
could control. It had lung been his, impression, and it
was one in which be was fully borne out by the concur.
rent testimony of many high authorities, that the employ-
ment or the capital and the labour of this country must
depend upon c.rcumstances so aff cling foreign supply and
demand, that we could have no control over them. He
then could not imagine any more dangerous opinion than
that which taught the people to think that their distress
was created, or could be prevented or remedied, by the
Government for the time being. Were such en opinion
to be maintained much longer, it would every day gain
ground, and every day its consequence would be becoming
mote and more alarming. But if it were untrue, as he
thouht himself justified in asserting, that the question
of prospet ity or distress depended upon extraneous Cain 11,
could any thing be more ins ,ne than to tell the people, not
only that that question was affected by the Government, but
by the form of the constitution—what would then be the
consequence?—why, that the Legislature would be every
day called upon to alter the Constitution, and their whole
time devoted to the pursuit of au unattainable good. He
behioonu.ldofnotrie
ittoseitf.oder m
. nsilthadirre beepnarntrigceudla,r the
anly
one povi-
orfitn
strongest ra commendations, that it provided an almost uni-
form franchise; now that struck his mind as one of the
greatest objections to the BM. He did not object to the
present franchise as being too popular; but he objected to
it as excluding totally and completely the poorer classes
from any share whatever in the franchise. He should
not then stop to discuss in detail the arrangement made to
ascertain the value of the tenements out of which the
electors were to vote—it was to be ascertained by Bar-
risters appointed by the Judges, whose bills were to be
settled by the Treasury : thus all the odium would rest
upon the Judges, who were saddled with the burden of
appointing them, and those Barristers would remain open
to every itnputstion of undue influence so long as they
had to settle their bills with the Treasury; but whether the
value of those voters' holdings came to be well or ill ascer-
tained, there was one thing certain—that the operation of
the franchise clause would be to reach a class below the
Middle orders, and not to reach the working classes. No
man entertained higher n.spect for the middle classes, prci-
perly so called, than he did; but what be understood by
the middle cities were those who had the means of educa-
tion hut not of idleness—the class from whom they de.
rived some of the best and ablest men in soraiety—who
were to the state the- sources of virtue and fresh honour ;
but that was not the class to which the new Bill extended
the franchise, but to the class below them—those with
whom the very poorest were continually in hostile con-
flict—they were the creditors of the very pour—those who
daisy appeared against them as plaintiffs in the Courts of
ConsCienee ; and the new Bill gave that class the power
of legislating for those Whii"Otight specially to be protected
from their influence, and of legislating not only for them
bit for the real middle dies, and for them (the upper
classes). Then the new measure denied to the Church of
England the proper influence which it had hitherto exer-
cised in the affairs of the country. It was well known that in
England the vet y lowest and the-very highest comprised a
larger portion of those in communion with the Established
Church, and it might reckon a very considerable portion
shouldof
t:o
conferred
tmheidfd,
alenccillasdesise
w;eilematllt trig:
ciblelgged the House to remember the
conferred upon Dissenters, through the
se
on
aml Irish voters. No doubt, under
enwtdtut dis-
senters. whom
fti
Thenhcl eihmet
iehstweehoeSt
the present system, a few Presbyterian Members might be
returned from Scotland ; but than they were, generally
speaking, men of large fortune, and of generous and liberal
sentiments : but under the new system they could have
nothing to expect but representatives imbued with all that
remained of bigotry in that country. The House of Com-
mons would be returned by the Dissenters here, by the
Presbyterians in Scotland, and by the Catholics in Ireland.
They were told that they must agree to the present
measure, because it came to them supported by the
united voice of the House of Commons and the people. If
that doctrine were once admitted, they must, in all time
coming, suhmit to that species of dictation. Did the pro-
moters of the measure imagine that they could devise any
system of representation which could reflect the exact image
of the people, or that if they could, any substantial advan-
tage would be so attained ? Were such a state of thinge.
once established—nay, even under the Bill—it could not
fail to be the practice to send every measure of importance
in the first place to a committee, and the advisers of the
Crown would cease to be responsible; all responsibility
would thenceforward rest with the committees, and so
would fall one of the most important and valuable princi-
ples of the British constitution. Government would not
then, as now, carefully consider every measure of public po-
liGih:cfliiiy:,,,k),:ioeidaninygntdh,:aeitteinbinos:
Government
tti)afrtointsubringingmight,
forward any but those which
they believed to be really conducive to the interest of the
country, and which would stand the test of disccesiou and
of severe examination ; but under the proposed new con-
stitution, as he would call it, they would not have such
motives as heretofore for a careful consideration of public
measures, s nee responsibility would rest, not upon them,
but upon Committees. Then lie would entreat the House
to remember what would be the probable effect. upon
what were called Parliamentary oppositions by the power
which would thus be throWn into the bands otrenters
from 101. to 201. a year. Hitherto the opposition was
t
c
esocist:),ooaf,u,
otertntevt.
iiititutteis:
fecbt—soaftl conducted
opposition
al
rA)ffnb,todeo affairs
Ist,
publicei
through
other
ceeiesnobotyricenutuenownaausuwil,rhel)iint
kuchytel)etcsanuasrtaubbceil
sedorik,vessraetlautrhes,,rndellidknadanaHesnsnondbtlono4uy, uetnoti
ea,
I:
este:l:eel
eed, t
qualifier)
,eorcgt,
without
that
honi
uiyeesoney:
ut:etod::ixidekt
cpbi
aesesigi independent
en)
on:::
ndinutpeec.
cerdenpucnntocr:dcirsnefieeettdntniinbu,bs
opposition,
united by common principles. Hence a race arose edu-
cated
air conduct
atilhethp: eisnernotrtutraytiitoign
in the history of this country_a history,
ctrhri
crisis;
r; nib eot
history
ewhichcould
utde
in times past would afford them the best guidance for
whether monarchy,e tdhe lessons;
emfoocrrmaacnoydsf
er pure despotism, that form of Government was the most
to be esteemed which hest enabled . men to serve the
country. As it was universally conceded that the British
Constitution, in its present form, was above all others ca-
pable of conferring that advantage, be should unhesitat-
ing give his negative to the present Bill. The character of
British institutions did not in an especial degree afford
every facility for the humblest man in society to rise to
that exact position to which his intellectual and mural
qualifications entitled him. This argument, he was aware,
was generally met by the (loci vation, that talent was not
.carce ; that there was no difficulty in finding men of ta-
lent; that one in ten of those you net were men of talent:
he was not so fortunate in his walks; but of the men of
talent who were to be found, he did not scruple to affitm,
that not one in one hundred possessed the useful qualities
f men of business ; dot those powers which most capti-
vated ware, generally speaking, the least useful. Upon
the var out grounds, then, whirls he had stated to their
L irdslops, he should contend; that as the affairs of tl e
'country Won l• 1 no longer be on:tile:tea upon" the priociplaa
which bad hitherto 6ui,fed our councils, it would be in