The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY 1, 1835.

the inconveniene., 'Ton morning q;trings, (Nil ac-
count of the numerous committees which were then engaged;
and he did not, therefore, propose them ; but if any arrange-
ment could be made for going into committee on this Bill re-
gularly, on certain days, and at certain hours, so far from
having any objection to it, he should be happy to see it
adopted, and was sure it would be most acceptable to all with
whom he acted.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not one of those who im-
puted to the Right Hon. Baronet a desire to obstruct the
progress of the Bill ; on the contrary, he felt sure that the
Right Hon. Baronet was desirous of fairly discussing its prin-
ciples ; and, like every other gentleman, could not wish to de-
lay its progress, because he could not wish that the session
should be unusually protracted. With respect to the progress
hitherto made, he thought that the motions by which it had
been hitherto delayed were not such as could have been rightly
postponed for an indefinite period ; but if the future progress
of the measure during the present week should not be suffi-
ciently rapid, it might then be desirable to consider of some
arrangement such as the Right Hon. Gentleman suggested.
Sir ROBERT PEEL alluded to the motion recently made
upon the subject of the Church of Scotland, and suggested
that it might be possible for the Noble Lord so to modify it as
to render it free from objection on any side. The question
was simply one between a Committee and a Commission.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the heads of the Church
of Scotland were quite as willing to have a Commission as a
Committee. He could not say that the intended form of in-
quiry was at present settled ; he hoped to be able to commu-
nicate some information upon the subject to-morrow.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that, in answer to the speech
from the Throne. the House had unanimously concurred in an
Address on this subject, to the effect that they would take into
consideration the condition of the Church of Scotland, and the
nri.ans by which it might be enabled to increase the opportu-
nities of religious worship for the poorer classes of society in
that part of the United Kingdom. Though the Noble Lord
the present Secretary for Ireland had moved an amendment to
the Address, he had left that part of it untouched. Why,
then, could not the Noble Lord refer to that portion of the Ad-
dress as the basis of the intended inquiry? To the principle
of an inquiry by Commission he should not apprehend that
there was any objection ; and if the Noble Lord would agree
that the Commission should make reports from time to time on
the most pressing cases in which spiritual instruction was re-
quired by the people of Scotland, be did think it possible that
the Noble Lord might suggest such an amendment to the mo-
tionas would meet with the assent of all parties.

Mr. GI L LON said that nothing would render the motion
a fit or likely one to he assented to ; and if the Government
did yield to the principle of acceding to the demands of the
Chtirch of Scotland, he should consider it his duty to-morrow
night to move a direct negative to the motion.
Several Hon. Members having postponed their motions,
Lord HO WICK presented a eetition from Alnwick in fa-
vour of the 'Municipal Corporations; and some other petitions
on the same subject having been presented,
The House went into Committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the labours of the Com-
mittee last night had terminated in the 14th clause. In refe-
rence to some suggestions which had been made then, he said
that he was of opinion that two assessors should be chosen by
the town council for the purpose of revision, and he should
accordingly move an amendment to that effect. For the first
year it would be desirable that the revising barristers should be
employed for the purpose of revising the lists, but beyond that
period he did not think that it was so.
Mr. C. WYNN should propose an amendment, to the effect
that in all the boroughs to which have been appointed revising
barristers under the Reform Act, these duties of revision should
be performed by them.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought that it would be
possible to select two intelligent, independent men, from the
borough, to perform the duties with impartiality.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that as the Bill provided a paid
legal officer to perform all judicial functions for all large bo-
rougiss, he did not see why, in them, that functionary should
not be required to perform the duties of revision. With re-
ference to the smaller boroughs, the system of Revising Bar-
sisters could be tried for one year, and it might then be seen
bow it worked.
After a- few• words from; Mr. C. W YNN,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL still retained his original opinion.
-Though he admitted-that.it would be desirable to employ the
Revising Barristeis for the present year, he thought it desir-
able that the boroughs, generally, should be allowed to govern
themselves in respect to the matter in question. The points
which, they would have to decide, were points which could be
equally well settled by persons of sound common sense, as by
legal funetienaries. Of course, if it were found that they
were unable to govern themselves, it might then he advisable
to take some further steps As to the suggestion of his Right
Hon. Friend—that the Recorder should execute the duties of
revision—he objected deeidedly to that; he objected to the
employment of a Judge—of a person who ought to appear
only in his judicial capacity in the borough—in matters of that
kind. With respect to the suggestion for appointing a tribu-
nal of three or five persons to insure uniformity of decision, that
question hadbeen discussed before the Registration Committee;
but it was one on which he had not yet made up his mind.
Sir R. PEEL. considering that the performance of the
duties which devolved upon the revising barristers at present
would Le almos, simultaneous with those which they would
have to execute according to the amendment of his Hon.
Friend, he thought that the best course would be to app pint
revising barristers to revise also the lists of the burgesses.
Mr. PEASE: thought it was of the greatest importance
that some decision should be arrived at, if' the revising bar-
risters• should be appointed under this Bill, which w uld
have the effect of giving expense as much as possible.
Sir R. PEEL.--There would, under the props's, e seslees
of revising barristers, be the hest possible preteetien eeeinst
unnecessary expense, for the parties who objected would be
liable in part to the expense of the. proceedings, whieh would
be defrayed out of the borough and not the county-rates.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the great oh-
j which they ought all to have in view was to keep down
expense as far as possible. The effect which public opinion
would have en the mode of conducting the revision of the
lists, by the mayor and auditors, would be the best security
against any unfair or partial conduct.—_( Hear. hear.) The
expense caused by the appointment of revising barrister,
would, be felt convinced, be much greater than those who
supported the amendment of the Hon. Member for Montgo-
meryshire supposed ; for every disputed vote would in itself
be a case which would in all probability occupy the attention of
the Court for a long time, by which the duration of its sitting
would be prolonged, and the expense inevitably increased.
mr. .G 0 UL BURN made a few remarks, which were in-
audible.

Mr. POULETT THOMSON thought, that if practical
men were appointed to adjudicate on disputed votes, they
would give much more satisfaction than revising barristers.
Considering the class, also, from whom they would be select-
ed, they would, in his opinion, form a more competent tribu-
nal than that which would be established if the proposed amend-
ments were agreed to.

Sir R. PEEL would accede to any arrangement, by which
the minority of the inhabitants in the towns and boroughs
would be saved-from the effects of that partiality which must
almost necessarily attach to persons appointed by the dominant
party.
Sir SAMUEL WHALLE Y was understood to support
the amendment.

Mr. FINCH expressed the same opinion.
Mr. JERVIS and Nlr. LEONARD opposed the amendment.
Mr. E STCOURT said, that so far as he had an opportu-
nity of forming a judgment on the question, he was ready to
accept of any tribunal which would ensure an impartial hearing
and decision of the cases brought under its consideration ; but
the last question which should, in his opinion, be submitted,
was that of disputed corporate votes.—( Hear.) The expense,
too, would be infinitely less if men of respectability and cha-
racter as lawyers were to give decisions which would not be
open to any charge of dishonesty, than if a partial tribunal
were appointed, to whose judgments almost endless objections
would be taken.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL explained. He did not intend the
appointment of revising barristers for the present year as an
experiment, but only as the means of meeting a pressing diffi-
culty for that period. The experiment which he in reality
made was the piesent clause, which if it did not effect the in-
tended object, that of saving expense, he should be ready to
consider the question of imposing additional charges on the in-
habitants of the towns. He thought, however, that the ap-
pointment of such a tribunal as that proposed by the Hon.
Member for Montgomeryshire, would in the first instance be
an expense and unjustifiable appointment-4 Hear, hear.)
Lord SA NDON believed that the expense of the appoint..
ment of revising barristers for the purpose intended by his Hon.
Friend would be about 20,0001., which he did not consider a
heavy charge if they could succeed in effecting by means of it
freedom and security of election.

Mr. ROBINSON was in favour of the amendment, for even
supposing that the system proposed by it did not work well, it
might be easily changed.
Mr. BROTHS RT ON supported, and Mr. REID oppo,ed
the clause.

Mr. G. F. YOUNG should vote for the amendment.
Mr. BLACKBURNE fould not see why the Mayor and
auditors, after the expiration of the first year, were not proper
persons to revise these lists. Who were they ? Persons chosen
by the common council, as the best Amongst that body, to erq _
stitute a tribunal by which the lists might be corrected. Stn.ii
a body would, in his opinion, be the fairest an s.:I best which could
be appointed for such a purpose.—( Hear, hear.
Lord SANDON should vote for the amendment.
Mr. BORTHWICK would give his support to the n`oti•:>n
of the Hon. Member for Montgomeryshire.
The gallery was then cleared for a division.
For the amendment 5l
against it B6
Majority.. 33
On our return, we found the Committee engaged in a de-
sultory conversation on that part of the same clause which
relates to the attendance of overseers on the Mayor's Court.
Several verbal amendments were proposed, some of which
were subse:mently withdrawn, and others adopted. Even
tuzliy, the clause, as amended, was ordered to stand part of
the Bill.

Clauses 15, 16. 17, and 18 were severally agreed to, after
having been verbally amended.
On the reading of clause 19—

Mr. HUGHES HUGHES moved as an amendment the
the insertion of certain words in the third line, with the view
to add to the number of councillors of every borough, the re-
presentatives in Parliament for the time being (it any,) and
recorder for the time being (if any,) of such borough, and all
justices of the peace acting in and for the same.—( Cries of
" Oh.") The ground upon which he was induced to move this
amendment was, that he thought the effect of the Bill would
otherwise be to reduce the number of town councillors to too
great an extent.
Lord JOHN RUS SELL contended that the amendment

I was obviously contrary to the principle upon which the Bill
pros:eeued. lie s'sisa.a 7:5.; oppose it.
Mr. HUME hoped that the Hon. Member for Oxford (Mr.
Hughes) would at once see the propriety of withdrawing his
amendment.
Mr. WARBURTON would suggest to the Hon. Member
for Oxford (Mr. Hughes) that the qualification which might
fit a man to 13e a Member of Parliament, or even an Alder-
man—( Loud laughter)—might not be a proper qualification
for a town councillor,
Mr. SCARLETT thought that the recorder and magis-
trates should, in every instance, be members of the town coun-
cil ex officio ; and if the present amendment should be
negatived he should certainly feel it to be his duty to submit a
proposition to that effect on the bringing up of the Report.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL was not disposed to
make the recorder and magistrates members of the council ex
officio, but he wished to know whether, if they should be
elected, they would be deemed ineligible ?
Lord HOWICK : No.
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES wished to know whether the
Noble Lord meant to adhere to the number of town councillors
as fixed in the schedule?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL : As an answer to that question
might lead to a discussion upon a question not then before the
House, he should not reply to it.
After a short discussion the amendment was withdrawn.
Mr. BORTHWICK then rose to move an amendment, for
. the purpose of continuing the present members of corporations
in office as councillors for life.—(oh, oh I from Mr. O'Connell
and othe.s.) If Hon. Members intended those sounds for ar-
guments, it would be much better, and certainly more be-
coming, for them to give up such a mode of argument, and to
leave the expression of their approbation or dissent to those
who had the power of articulate speech.--( Hear, hear.) He
was about to state that the object of his amendment was to
continue the present members of corporations in office as coun-
cillors for life, making up the numbers mentioned in the sche-
dules by election, as provided for in the Bill.
The amendment was then put, that at the last line but one
there be inserted the words, " including the members of the
. present co, poration."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the proposition involved not a logical, but an arithmetical absur-
dity in its working. At Oxford, for instance, the numbers of
the town council were to be 33, and how could 90, the num-
; her of the Corporation, be included in 33?—(Laughter.) If
the Hon. Member was so confident of the 'deserts of the gen-
tlemen whose cause he advocated, he could have no fear of
, their being elected.
Mr. C. BULLER observed, that in Leicester, Liverpool,
and some other towns, the Corporation included the freemen,
so abet the town council would in such cases amount to 5,000
or 6,000.
Mr. BORTHWICK would not divide the House.
Afte! a few words from Mr. HUGHES the amendment was
withdrawn, and the clause as amended was agreed to.
Clause 20, as it stands in the Bill, was then read as
follows :
" And be it enacted, that no person shall be qualified to be
elected or to be a councillor, or one of the charitable trustees
[ hereinafter mentioned, of any such borough who shall not be
a burgess of such borough, or during such time as he shall
[ hold any office or place of profit other than that of mayor in
; the gift or disposal of the council or charitable trustees of such
borough, or during such time as he shall have directly or indi-
rectly, by himself or his partner, any share or interest in any
contract or employment with, b), or on behalf of such council
or charitable trustees."
Captain BERKELEY rose to move his amendment, to dis-
qualify dissenting ministers, custom-house officers, &c., front
being members of the town council ; but Sir Robert Peel's.
for the establishment of a qualification, having priority, the
Gallant Captain's was poynoned.
Sir R. PEEL in moving his amendment for requiring a
quilification in the town councillors should consider the ques-
tion of qualification under two heads. First, whether there
should be a qualification at all ; and secondly, if there should
be a qualification, what ought to be its nature and amount ?
He knew it might be said that at some remote period no qua-
lification was required. The original charters, however, al-
though they did not specify any particular test of qualification,
pointed out that the governing body should be chosen from the
most discreet and respectable persons in the town, and pi-ac-
tically the system of the governing body electing one another,
which had prevailed, had secured the election of persons of
wealth and respectability. In the appendix to the Bill several
pages were occupied by the names of a variety of Acts passed
for the local government of different towns. Now, it would
be found that although the governing body was sometimes
elected by the rate-payers generally, and sometimes by certain
qualified rate payers, yet, in the majority of' cases—indeed he
believed in all—a qualification was required in the parties
• elected. Such was the case at 'Manchester, where, to be eli-
gible to be a member of the governing body, it was ne-
cessary to be a tenant rated at 281. per annum, or the
owner of a tenement of the value of 150/. a-year. The
electing body was also required to be qualified, no man
being able to vote whose house was not rated at 16/. per
annum, and if a publican at 32/. So at Salford, the Hon.
Member for which told them the people were perfectly satis-
fied with the system there established, all rate• payers had a
vote ; but to be a member of the governing body it was requi-
site to tenant a house rated at 20/., or own one valued at 501.
per annum. In Birmingham it was necessary to occupy a
house rated at 15/. per annum, and be possessed of real or
personal property to the value of 1.0001. In Sheffield the
qualification was being rated at 20/., or being possessed of
1,0001. in real or personal property. In Sunderland it was
necessary to be an owner of a house worth 20/., or an occu-
pier of one worth 301. In Devonport it was requisite to be
possessed of 501. per annum in land. In Wolverhampton it
was necessary to occupy a house rated at 12/. per annum, or
possessed of 1,000/. In Bilston it was necessary to be pos-
sessed of lands of the yearly value of 401., or to be the son of
a man possessed of 1001. a year in land, or of 1,000/. In
Bolton it was necessary to be possessed of 1,0001. in real or
personal property. In Brighton it was necessary to have 1001.
a year in houses and land. In Oldham it was necessary to
have 1001. a year in land. In Stoke upon-Trent the same
qualification was necessary.
Mr. BROTH ERTON wished to ask the Right Hon. Bs-
roma whether he was speaking of the qualification of those
who were Commissioners by virtue of being possessed of a
certain amount of property, or of the qualification of thosa
who were to be elected by the inhabitants of the different
towns he had named?
Sir R. PE EL was speaking of the qualification necessary
to be possessed of to be elected a Commissioner. In the bo-
rough of Stroud the qualification was highest of all, for the
qualification of a Commissioner was having 100/. a year in
land, or to be the son of a person having 1501. a year in land,
or possessed of real or personal property amounting to 3,000/.
Yet this was a popular place, which had chosen the Noble
Lord (John Russell) as the organ of its opinions.—( Hear,
and a laugh.) He thought, however, that the qualification
required at Stroud was too high, and he had not taken it as
his model. But if it were right to require a qualification in a
man who was to superintend the lighting, watching, and paving,
of a town, there were many more reasons why it should be re-
quired from persons who were to exercise all the powers of this
Bill. They were to be administrators of charities—they were
to have extensive patronage, and were to have a voice in the
appointment of recorders. All these were additional reasons
for requiring a qualification from them. Moreover the whole
principle of the Bill implied the existence of a qualification.
'The Mayor was to be a member of the magistracy of the
county, and to be that a qualification of 100/. a year in land
was required—a test of respectability which, however im-
perfect, excluded many improper appointments. The
Mayor, besides, was to be the returning officer ; and, if he
neglected his duty, the Reform Act subjected him to a pe -
'laity of five hundred pounds, which certainly implied
that the person filling the office should be possessed of
a certain amount of property. Insolvency and bankruptcy
were disqualifications under the Bill, but payment 'of the
rates was perfectly consistent with a very near approach to
either. He felt, however, that it would be improper to make
the qualification too high, or to make it uniform. He had
looked with care through the various acts, and had attempted
to adopt a qualification which would be generally suitable,
and which would riot err on the side of excluding persons
from the council qualified for its duties. Two descriptions of
towns were contemplated by the Bill; viz., towns to be di.
Tided into wards on account of the amount of the population,
and those which were not to be so divided, but were to have
the governing body elected by the votes of the inhabitants
generally. He hoped the system of wards would be extended
to more towns than were at present contemplated by the Bill.
—( Hear.) But whatever towns Might be selected to be di-
vided into wards, he should propose for them a qualification of
a higher nature than for those not so divided. A single qua-
lification would be open to much objection. In Lord
Brougham's Bill, providing for the government of the new
boroughs, 1,000/. in rent or personal property was adopted as
the qualification. He thought he could suggest a better qua-
lification, one which was frequently adopted in these local
Acts ; he meant one of a joint nature. A respectable trades.
man might have some difficulty in swearing or declaring that he
had realized 1,000/., or that he possessed that amount in land.
Therefore he adopted a lower qualification than that prescribed
by Lord Brougbasn's Bill, as being at least capable of a more
extensive application. He proposed that in the case of towns
which were to he divided into wards, the qualification of a
Councillor should be either that be was seised or possessed of
real or personal estate, or of both, of a clear value in the
whole of 10001.; or, disjunctively, that he was rated for the re-
lief of the poor within the borough, upon an annual value of
not less than 401. In that case a new corner into the town,
who had a large property, but who inhabited a house not rated
so high as 40/., would still be qualified to be elected a Coun-
ejllor ; while, on the other hand, a tradesman who was rated
at 40/., but who could not declare that he was possessed of
1000/., seyould also be qualified.—( Hear, hear.) Then with
respect to those towns which were not to be divided into
wards, he proposed that the qualification should be the posses-
sion either of real or personal estate, or both, to the amount
of 500/., or disjunctively, rated within the borough upon an
annual amount of not less than 20/.—( Hear, hear.) The
Right Horn. Baronet concluded by moving as an amendment
the introduction of certain words to the effect stated in his

speech.
Mr. BL A C KB URNE said that his principal objection to
the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet was on constitu-
tional grounds, inasmuch as it would have the effect theoreti-
cally of narrowing the right of the electors in the choice of
those persons to whom the government of their affairs was to
he delegated. It was not property that ought to be the ground
of qualification ; it was intelligence. It was said, that in prac-
tice the Legislature always prescribed a qualification. Now,
as far as regarded those places which would come within the
immediate operation of this Bill, the case was exactly the re-
verse; because in no one charter of these boroughs, from the
beginning to the end of the schedules. was there a single ex.
pression to denote that the possession of a certain amount of

property was necessary as a qualification to act in the govern-
'went of tike borough. It was true (as the Right Hon.
had said), that the charters, for the most part, used the words
" fit and discreet men." So also, in the Bill before the Com-
mittee, there was a clause which enacted that the persons to
be elected should be " fit and proper persons ;" but it was
always by the charters, and it was proposed to be by this Bill,
left to the electors themselves to determine who were to be
considered the " fit and discreet men." The instance put for-
ward this night, and also on a former occasion, by the Right
Honourable Baronet was one of considerable force—namely,
the town of Manchester. Now he (Mr. Blackburne) hap-
pened to be a counsel before the Committee of the House of
Commons and before the House of Lords on that Bill. In
former times the rate-payers, at a certain rate, in Manchester
were ipso facto Commissioners of Police. It was found, how-
ever, that great disturbances ensued from the existence of this
right ; a Bill was therefore brought in for the purpose of des-
troying that right, and of giving it to certain persons named in
the Bill. He was counsel for the parties who opposed the
Bill ; but on going through the Committee of this House, it
was proposed that the rate-payers should choose the Commis-
sioners of Police : this satisfied the persons for whom he ap-
peared ; but the promoters of the Bill immediately abandoned
it, and he was himself obliged to take it up to the House of
Lords. When there, the original promoters of the Bill op-
posed it ; and then, inasmuch as he, on the one hand, was ap-
prehensive that the clause giving a power of election to the
rate-payers would be thrown out, and his Learned Friend, the
Accountant-General, on the other hand, was afraid it would
be carried, they came to a compromise, by which it was agreed
that both the electors and the elected should have a certain
qualification.
Mr. BROTHERTON observed, that the Bill provided
that persons occupying premises rated at 301. a-year, were
qualified to be Commissioners by virtue thereof, without being
elected. _

Mr. BLACKBURNE suspected that his Hon. Friend and
himself were not speaking of the same Bill.
Sir R. PEEL doubted whether Mr. Blackburne was not
wrong as to the town to which the alteration of the qualifica-
tion applied.
Lord STANLEY also thought that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman was entirely mistaken. He was a Member of the
Committee before which the question of qualification was dis-
cussed; and if he were not greatly mistaken, his recollection
of the case was this ;--that the question was whether there
should be an additional qualification for those who were to be
elected, beyond those who were to be electors, and the com-
promise was certainly made in the House of Commons, by
which a great difference was effected both in the qualificatioi
of persons to elect and those to be elected.
Mr. BLACKBURNE recollected the Noble Lord being
on the Committee; but his impression was as he had already
stated : he would not be bound to say that he was right in
every particular.
Sir PEEL—WiII you be bound to say that you approved
of the Bill as it passed the House of Commons ?
Mr. BLACKBURNE—Oh, yes; as it passed the House
of Commons ; but certainly the compromise was ultimately
effected in the House a Lords. He would admit that all the
modern local Acts contained a clause requiring qualification
for persons elected to the government of towns ; but how did
that arise ? Why, originally, every inhabitant of a town who
occupied a house, rated to a certain amount, was ipso facto a
Commissioner of Police. In that case, he admitted there
ought to be a qualification ; but it was totally different when
we came to the question of an election of those who were to
act for the elected. If, indeed, this were a matter of mere
politics, or the question of the election of Members of Par-
liament, or of persons in whom great trusts were to be placed,
and of which they might take advantage to themselves, then
he might admit some qualification to be necessary ; because
it might happen that electors might be swayed to elect per-
sons who were the most fit and discreet, but persons from whom
they might hope to obtain the most advantage by the exercise
of the patronage possessed by the elected. But by this Bill
the Least possible patronage would be given to the town coun-
cil. Then with regard to the amount of the qualification pro-
posed ; he thought it would be found to be much too high in
many places. In many of the smaller boroughs there would
not be a sufficient number of qualified persons to fill the
office even without any election.—( Hear.) He recollected
when the 101. qualification was under consideration a borough
was referred to having a Mayor and Corporation, but in which
there was only one house rated so high as 101. He thought it
would be found that in many places there would not be more
than one or two houses rated so high as 20/. Upon these
grounds, then, he opposed the amendment. If the House re-
quired an instance of the practical inutility of any qualification
on the part of the elected, could they have a better than what
presented itself to them in the case of the Members for Scot-
land now sitting in this House ?—( Hear, hear.) No qualifica-
tion was required from them, and yet they yielded not either
in sagacity, intelligence, or in anxiety in the performance of
their public duties to any set of men either in or out of Par-
liament. The same was the case with respect to the new juris-
dictions in the Scotch burghs. No qualification was required
in the elected, curtailed as the people were in their privileges,
because theirs was a 101. franchise ; still they had the power
to choose whom they thought best fitted to manage their affairs
without any qualification whatever.
Mr. ROBINSON thought the qualification proposed by
Sir Robert Peel to be remarkably high ; and was of opinion,
that a far as regarded the electors, the being rated to the poor
was sufficient without any other qualification.
M. WILLIAMS (Coventry) said a few words, which
were inau lible.

Lord SA N DON supported the amendment.
Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE considered the clause as it now
stood was most congenial to the general principle of the Bill
In that measure relating to parochial government which he
had the good fortune to introduce into Parliament several
years ago, certainly a rate of qualification was fixed ; but it
was fixed against his own opinion, and against the opinion
of a great number of others. By that Bill a 401. qualifica-
tion was required for the metropolitan parishes, and what had
been the effect of it ? In two great parishes in London *he
effect of the qualification had been to totally nullify the Bill.
The Bill had not, in those parishes, been productive of any
of those salutary consequences which it had produced in other
parishes. If the Noble Lord thought, or if the Right Hon.
Baronet thought, that the general disposition of the commu-
nity at large was to choose persons for the government of their
local affairs who had a tendency to misdirect and mismanage
them, that was undoubtedly an objection to the Bill altogether,
and they had no right to be talking there of introducing so
great, so decided, and, in that case, so pernicious a change in
our municipal corporations. But if it were the case—and he
really believed the fact to be so—if it were the case that in the
times in which they were talking, and for which they were
legislating, not only was there the greatest degree of intelli-
gence among the community at large, but also that degree of
character and interest in good government among the people
of the country which would fairly justify their being intrusted
with the management of their own affairs ; then he would say
that they were proceeding on a sound and judicious basis.—.
( Loud cheers.) Would any Ggntleman who had had the ad-
vantage of long Parliamentary experience, any one who had
witnessed what had occurred before the various Committees
who had sat on that very subject of qualification, with reference
to the characters of the first men in the country—he meant
those who had the honour of sitting in that House, or possessed
a chance of being called to the other—would any such Gentle-
man venture to tell him that qualification had been a bona fide
protection even to that House ?—( Cheers.) Every body knew
that it had not been ; and if it had not been a protection
to that House, how could the Noble Lord, at that time of day,
pretend to say that it would be a protection against the intro
duction of improper persons into the offices created by the
Bill 2—( Loud cheers.) It was very true that under the old
state of things, when the municipal officers held their offices
for life, some qualification might be necessary. At that period
tke municipal officers were not removable, but under this Bill
they are removed or were removable periodically, and there-
fore if the people found that they had committed a mistake in
the original introduction of them into the municipal body, of
course they would have the power of afterwards removing
them. This was, in his mind a conclusive argument against
pressing for that first original qualification now sought to be
established.—( Loud cheers.) He must take the liberty of say-
ing that he had heard nothing in the course of that debate, no-
thing from the Right Hon. Baronet that at all induced him to
alter opinion upon the subject. It had always been his no-
tion that in founding a great measure of that description on a
popular basis, it was better to carry out the principle to the full,
if it were beneficial at all.—( Hear, hear.) And is it were be-
neficial in this instance, he saw no reason whatever why in this
particular they should depart from it.—(Cheers.)
Mr. GO ULBURN supported the amendment. Supposing
the persons intrusted with the direction of the funds had no
property of their own, in what situation would charities be
placed, if it should happen that owing either to corruption, or
the infirmity of human nature, or other causes, their funds
were directed to purposes foreign from their original destina.
tion? On this point alone, if on no other, there was the ful-
lest and most complete answer to the argument of the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down.—( Cheers from the
Opposition.)
Mr. EWART decidedly thought that-no qualification at ail
was necessary to confer the elective franchise either for the
municipality or the Legislature.—( Cheers.)
Mr. I•'. BARING had referred up stairs to a return laid
before the House with a view of ascertaining the number of
houses in Portsmouth, rated at the highest amount to the
house duty, in order to form some notion of the effect the
Right Hon. Baronet's provision would produce in that town.
The town of Portsmouth—Portsmouth only, as separated from
Portsea—was divided into wards, which required in all 48
councillors. He found, however, that in the principal part of
the borough there were only 58 houses rated to the house-
duty at above 401. a-year.—(Loud cheers.) This showed
how very blindly they were discussing the question. The
worst was, that in the principal part of this borough, for which
48 councillors were required, only 18 could be elected if the
Right Hon. Baronet's principle were adopted.—Cheering.)
Sir ROBERT. PEEL—I quite agree with the Hon.
Gentleman that we are discussing this question—some of us
at least—very blindly indeed—(Cheers from the Opposition)
—he undertakes to explain to the House my clause, and leaves
out the fact that it provides an alternative.—(Cheers.) The
clause gave a double qualification, the alternative being the
possession of real or personal property to the amount of
1.000/. There might be only 18 houses in one particular ward
in Portsmouth ; but he apprehended that as the Bill stood,
there was no obligation to select the councillors from that par-
ticular ward.—( Cheers. )
Mr. BARING—Take the whole borough.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Take the whole borough I Does
the Hon. Gentleman mean to say that there are not 48 per-
sons in the town of Portsmouth worth 1,000/. ?
Mr. F. BARlNG—Certainly not,—(Renewed cheering
and loud cries of " Question.")
Mr, CUMMING BRUCE supported the amendment
amidst cries of " Question" and great confusion.

Mr. 1-117(11IES HUGHES got rip, but being assailed by
ioud cries of " Oh l" from all parts of the House, sat down
again amidst great cheering.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was ready to admit without dis-
pute, that in two or three local Acts which he could mention
out of the great mass passed of late years, the principle of qua-
lification had been established. Having admitted thus much,
however, he thought he had made the only admission that
could be conceded. He could state three several reasons
against the adoption of the Right Hon. Baronet's proposal.
One was, that our ancient charters acknowledged no principle
of the kind.—(Loud cheers.) So little was it acknowled, that
in the Constitution of the City of London, there was not, he
believed, at that moment, any qualification for any municipal
officers ; no qualification was required of the Corporation of
the City of London, who were annually elected. I wish
then for the original principle. Was there any general
reason which could be assigned in favour of the proposal ?
On the contrary the general reason was in favour of the
unrestricted choice of the burgesses. That unrestricted
choice obliged them to look to persons in whom they
could most justly confide ; if they could not confide in
them they had better not trust them with these privileges,
but if they did confide in them they had better not en-
cumber them with a restriction which might, in many
cases, be most inconvenient.—( Cheers.) In the next place he
came to the practical inconvenience of the clause, and he
thought it would be almost sufficient to say any thing on this
point, that in many places the qualification would be exceed-
ingly high, and in all extremely various. In Portsmouth, as
his Hon. Friend had already pointed out, its effect would be
to exclude a great number of persons altogether ; and taking
the case of the smaller boroughs, where the proposed qualifi-
cation was the possession of property to the amount of 500/.
or the occupation of a house valued at 20/. a year, he knew
that in small corporate towns like Chippenham and other
places of a similar description there were not more than fifteen
or twenty houses rated at 201. a year. He had already said
that he thought the qualification would prove exceedingly
injurious; and he hoped the Committee would sanction no
alterations which would have the effect of depriving the
Bill of its principal recommendations.—( Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet had, be had no doubt, paid some at-
ication to the Bill, but he seemed to have considered only
the present state of the Corporations.—( Hear, and a laugh.)
He had not evidently made up his mind to change their
constitution completely. He appeared to suppose that these
were secret and self-elected bodies, to whom the entire ma-
nagement of the funds was to be intrusted ; that it did not de-
pend upon a large body of their fellow-townsmen to re-elect
them ; and above all, that they were not to make public an ac-
count of the whole of their transactions ; whereas every precau-
tion was taken, treasurers and auditors of accounts were 'pro-
vided, and the fullest provision was made for the management
of the accounts and property of the Corporations.—( Cheers. )
For these reasons, therefore, he was not disposed to accede to
the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet. He admitted
that it was conformable to the provisions of the local Acts, and
he admitted also that in those local Acts he had supported the
introduction of the provision ; but he thought it much better,
in the present case, to leave the matter in the hands of the
electors themselves. He felt the fullest confidence that they
would not introduce into the management of Corporate affairs
any 13:It persons well qualified for the task.—( Cheers. )
Sir ROBERT PEEL said his only wish had been to show
that he had a stream of concurrent authority in his favour
from those who must be supposed to be interested in the good
government of these boroughs, and he had thought it better
to refer to those authorities with the view of saving the time
of the House. One of his great authorities was the Noble
Lord himself—(Cheers from the Opposition) ; and when he
heard all these censures on those who did not place implicit
confidence in the elective body, he would refer to an Act im-
mortalized by the Noble Lord's own name, and entitled " An
Act for the Better Regulation of the joint Parishes of St.
Giles-in-the-Fields, and. St. George, Bloomsbury." The
regulation declared by that Act was, " that one half at least
of the persons to be elected vestrymen of the parish of St. Giles-
in-the-Fields, and the parish of St. George, Bloomsbury, in
the execution of this Act, shall, at the time of their election,
and the time of their acting, be resident householders within
the parish, and rated to the relief of the poor of the joint pa-
rishes of St. Giles-in-the-Fields and St. George, Bloomsbury,
at the annual assessment and qualification of—what did the
House think ?—not less than 751. per annum."—( Great cheer-
ing from the Opposition ) Such was the force of distrust at
that time, that no rate-payer was allowed to vote, unless he
was rated at 30/. a year. An Hon. Gentleman opposite pro-
posed 151.; the Noble Lord admitted that 30/. was too high,
but thought ,151. too low ; four divisions took place on the
subject, and so great was the doubt in 1830, that the rate-
payers would in all cases elect, without doubt, the persons
best qualified to govern them, that the Noble Lord selected
one half of the body from persons rated at 701. a year, and
the other from persons rated at 50/. a year.—( Protracted
cheers from the Opposition.)
Lord H 0 WIC K was not at all surprised that the Right
Hon. Baronet, with that skill and dexterity which never ,for
a moment failed him_( Loud cheers from the Opposition)—
when he felt himself in rather an awkward position—(Great
cheering from the Ministerial side of the House)—had en-
deavoured to distract the attention of the House from the
real point before it, by attempting to get up a laugh against
his Noble Friend. The Right Hon. Baronet had been
uressed, first to answer the difficulties stated by his Honour-
able Friend, the Member for Portsmouth, and next to state
sour: general ground in favour of the establishment of some
qualification for the elective body. Neither of these questions,
however, did he think it safe to meddle with, and so he had
entertained the House with a long story respecting the parish
of St. Giles in-the- Fields.—( Cheers and laughter.) He did
wondo, that the Right Hon. Baronet felt himself involved
in sonic diffieulty. the more especially when he recollected Cult
;,, iii„ largest and most opulent towns in the kingdom-
-1;verpool and Bristol—there was no qualification at all for the
cl,ctioo of municipal officers.—(Cheers.) He trusted the
lou‘e would not concur in the proposition of the Right Hon.
tivooet. If they did, his consolation was that the qualifica-
tion he proposed to establish would be a dead letter.
Mr. H. HUGHES then attempted to address the House,
but was received with loud shouts of " Divide." The Hon.
Member continued his exertions for some time, but each sen-
tence was drowned in cheers and confusion, and at last he was
obliged to yield.
Mr. P. T H OM SON then rose, but the impatience of the
House was so great, that he did not persist.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared
Ayes
Noes
Majority for Ministers —63
On our return to the Gallery, we found
Mr. G OUL BURN addressing the House. The Right
Hon. Gentleman was understood to move an amendment, but
amidst the confusion the purport of it could not be heard.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL should consider the proposition.
Sir ROBERT PEEI7. was quite ready to agree to the se-
paration of the charitable trust from the Parliamentary fran-
chise, and he thought that the more they were separated the
better for all parties. He therefore begged it to be under-
stood, that in acquiescing in the passing of the present clause,
he should not consider himself as precluded from agreeing to
any amendment to thal effect at a future stage.
Capt. BERKELEY then rose to bring forward the amend-
ment of which be had given notice. His object was to prevent
clergymen, licensed dissenting teachers, officers of excise, or
officers of the customs, from being returning officers ; the
words which he proposed to add were, " provided such per-
son or persons are not in holy orders, licensed dissenting mi-
nisters, officers of customs, stamp, excise, or in the post-office;
and that any person taking holy orders, or accepting any office
as aforesaid, shall vacate and resign any municipal office to
which he or they may have been elected."
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not agree to the amend-
mcnt.—( Hear, hear.)
Captain BERKELEY—As the sense of the House ap-
peared to be against him, would not press his amendment.
The amendment was accordingly withdrawn.
After a few words from Sir ROBERT PEEL the clause
was agreed to.
Clause 21 was then agreed to.
On clause 22 being read,
Mr. GROTE rose, and suggested that as this clause was
of great importance, and the hqur was late, it would be better
to adjwarn.—( Cries of " Go on.")
Lord STANLEY then rose—lt was not his intention, by
his amendment, to restrict the rights to be conferred upon the
new body of electors, neither did he propose to mix up the
rights of those formerly constituting the municipal body with
those created under the present Bill. All he proposed was,
that while he admitted to its fullest extent the principle of
a popular election of the corporate officers, they ought to
adopt proper means to insure a good and steady Government
of the boroughs in which this Bill came into operation. The
evils
supportedinherentpionn it.
any Tg
grounds
snydsst eomf
coxfped
ency or propriety. It was therefore wise in his Noble Friend
self-
election
the Secretary for the Home Department to provide such a
olclsy•ste
cmouhladdumotanbye
constituency by his Bill as would really represent the feelings
and opinions of the inhabitants of the boroughs ; but the
question now was, not only whether the council should repre-
sent the feelings and opinions of their constituents, but
whether they should also represent the prejudices and passions
of the body at large. He did not object to the plan of the
council not going out of office all at the same time, but going
out in portions of one-third at a time, because he thought,
by that plan, the council was less likely to represent
one set of prejudices or one set of politics. If they
had such frequent changes, in course of years the towns
would be kept in a constant state of electioneering ferment.
—( Hear, hear.) Under this Bill the council would be chosen
for three years, but one third would be elected annually. If
they had these elections they would have all the bitterness of
election contests every year, and at the same time the greatest
anxiety would be manifested and bitterness of feeling created
to be entered in the rolls ; in addition to this, the Bill al-
lowed elections to take place to supply any vacancies that
might be occasioned by death or otherwise. Only imagine the
excitement that would prevail in such a town as Liverpool
where there were 90 members of the council. On but a mo-
derate calculation two or three vacancies would take place in
the course of the year in such a place, and on each occasion
they would have the manifestations of great animosities. If
the Committee rejected the amendment he just proposed
they would, in point of fact, declare that the general body of
electors were those upon whom they could best rely to carry
into effect the general details of the measure. They would
leave the direct control in the popular body. He did not ob-
ject to give the entire control to the rate-payers at large. He
would ask, however, what advantage would be gained by
making their members appear before their constituency so often,
when the control of that body would not be much less by
adopting the course ho proposed ? He contended that these
elections would be attended with infinitely more difficulty and
excitement than the election for Members of Parliament. The
means of gr, atifying prejudices or existing animosities would

- in these corporate elections than in the elec-
tions of Members of that House;- and yet the period the
whole body of the former was elected for, was not one-half of
the latter. He would not detain the Committee longer than
by repeating, that if they elected the Members of Council for
a longer period, they would have more information as to the
state of affairs in the corporations, and, at the same time, more
fixity of principle. The people, also, would be relieved from
the anxiety and excitement of such repeated contests, and still
they would exercise an efficient control •ver the Council.which
he certainly was not desirous of taking out of the hands of the
electors. There were two means of obviating the objection
he had raised—namely, making the electiOhs generally trien-
nially, or by making the election of one-third of the Members
of the Corporation triennial, and not altering the other parts
of the Bill. The latter was the course he intended to pursue.
The Noble Lord concluded with proposing that, instead of
the words " each year," the words " every alternate year" be
substituted.

Sir J. HOBHO USE would only say a few words in answer
to the Noble Lord. He thought that his Noble Friend's ar-
guments would rather tell against himself. The greater the
power they gave to individuals, the greater should be the hold
they had over them. His Noble Friend did not object to this
proposition. It was true that the municipal council has great
power, and the security against the abuse of that power was
the frequency of elections.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared to him
( Sir J. Hobhouse) immaterial whether the council was elected
for two or three years, but he could not agree to a longer pe-
riod than the latter.—( Hear, hear.) If the Bill was to give
ri:.e to the perpetual disturbances alluded to by his Noble
Friend, he for one should certainly be against it altogether—
( Hear, hear)—but he was satisfied that such would not be the
result. What was the case in the City of London, where the
election for Common :Councilmen was annual? There was
no ferment or anything like disturbance, but the greater por-
tion of the body once elected, were returned again and again.
He repeated that he doubted the return of env annual excite-
ment such as his Noble Friend anticipated ; b-ut if there were,
that would be a cheap purchase for the advantages the com-
munity would gain by having control over the municipal body.
The amendment of his Noble Friend went on the principle of
the Bill, which was founded, in point of fact, in giving a po-
pular control to the electors of a town. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite was perfectly justified in proposing the amend-
ment which he did, considering the views he entertained, so
was his Noble Friend in making his proposition ; but he (Sir
J. Hobhouse) was fully justified, considering the views he en-
tertained, in opposing it.
Mr. SH EIL asked why the Noble Lord had not proposed
an amendment to this effect in the Scotch Municipal Bill, when
he was in the Cabinet. He was willing to agree with the
Noble Lord that the possession of power gave an inclination
to abuse it, and he (Mr. Sheil) thought cases might be
quoted where it made those who were Reformers become anti-
Reformers.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BROT HE RTON was satisfied with the clause as
it stood.

Mr. SC A RLETT thought, that unless the amendment was
adopted, great inconvenience would be experienced in towns
where there were large corporate funds.
Mr. GOULBURN contended, that if the principle of the
Right. Hon. Baronet ( Sir J. Hobhouse) was good, they ought
to make the same principle apply in Parliamentary elections.
They should have annual elections in both cases.
The Committee then divided on the amendment.

Ayes
Noes

Majority against it
The House then resumed; the CATRMAN reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit to-morrow.
WOLVERHAMPTON RIOTS.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved, " That an Address be
presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be pleased to
lay before the House copies of the evidence lately taken before
Sir Frederick Roe, at Wolverhampton."