The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-04 00:00:00

interest in seeing that 'they. Properly perfarined their duty, Cr by
sef.ele7ted and irresponsible persons-2' He believed that throughout
the metropolis it had been found triat the afrairs of parishes had been
much better managed by vestries elected tty the rate.payers of a
parish at tare, than by the old select vestries, which were for
the most part self elected bodies.. In the Com.i.on Council of the
city of London, the elections were annual; and he believed from
all that he had had heard, that the affairs of that corporation were
extremely well managed. In Bristol there were certain boards
which were elected by the rate-payers at large. Agaiet, in Liverpool,
the rates were levied by commissioners elected generally by the rate.
payers, and no complaints had ever been made as to the made in which
these trusts were managed. No qualification, that he had ever heard of,
was required in any of these select bodies, and no complaints wc:re ever
made. In all the Corporations that he was acquainted with, th., oifiers
were elected annually; if they behaved well, they were slue to be re-
elected. His Learned Friend S;r Charles Wetherell might, under the
r,pration of this Bill, be knocked out of the recordership that he hell,
as well probably as himself; but he should not regret it if he were, be-
cause he did not think that .it was fit that a person not professionally
educated should be anowel to serve that office. He believed that he had
not given much dissa•isfaction to those interesed ; but he did not think
that any person should be alowed to administer justice, and above all,
in cases of life and death, who had not received a learned edue:dion.
His main object in rising to address their Lordships, was to express his
surprise at the language used by the Noble and Learned Lord opiiosite.
If the Noble and Learned Lord did entertain such recline.
expressed, he should not attoalpt to threw out .1.- -
calling ovidoace to the bar, taut ..
Lord W Li. A R IT `—
had

as he ha.

...: JAI by a sidewied, ii
unce h.tve proposed that it be rejected
.... . i.., 1 FFE remarked that the Noble Earl
' •-._. stated that his Noble and Learned Friend wished to de-
feat the Bill by delay. He, however, denied that any such in-
tention was entertained by Peers on that'side the House. An
that they desired was to see justice done—( Hear, hear)—and
that the persons against whom the most serious. charges had
been brought, should have an opportunity of defending them-
selves.—( Hear, hear.) He sincerely believed that the only
object of the motion of his Noble la; was to hear whether
the evidence to be adduced at the bar would bear out the alle-
gations contained in the petitions presented in contradiction
to the assertions contained in the Reports of the Commis-
sioners.—( Hear, hear.) When the subject was first intro-
duced, it was met with the objection that the Legislature had
not sufficient evidence to proceed upon, and in consequence of
this the Commission was issued and evidence was examined,
and thus a delay of twelve months was interposed. It was
said that the Bill did not rest on the Report of the Commis-
sioners, but. it even quoted some of the words of the Report.
The Noble Lord, however, notwithstanding this, said that they
had nothing to do with the Report. If the Bill was not founded
on the Report, on what did it rest? If it was not founded on
the Report, what had been the use of issuing the Commission ?
If it was founded on the Report, why not examine evidence to
confirm or contradict the allegations contained in it, and
which had been copied into the preamble of the Bill.
It was in consequence of an address to the Crown that a
Commission had been appointed to inquire into the state of
Municipal Corporations, and the Report emanated from the
persons appointed as Commissioners. Why was it that the
Report was brought down to that House, if they were not to
rely upon it? And yet the Noble VisMiit had said that he
did not call upon their Lordships to do so. By every prin-
ciple of consistency they were bound to refer to the labours of
these Commissioners, and *hat did they find? The Com-
missioners brought certain charges against COrporations, and
on the assumption of which this measure was founded, and he
contended that it was the duty of the House of Lords to
I examine witnesses, to see whether the accusations that had
I been made were true or false. The Noble Viscount had
referred to three instances of mismanagement in the affairs
of Corporations—namely, those of Derby, Leicester, and
Nottingham; two of them were said to be Liberal bodies,
and the other being a Conservative. The result of the Com-
missioner's inquiry was, that many persons in these towns
were discontented, and that therefore the Corporations were
corrupt. He contended that they were not justified in as-
suming the inference until after they had heard evidence at
the bar of their Lordships' House. . He did not deny that
great discontent might prevail in many of these towns, but
this was not necessarily the consequence of the existence of
great abuses The Crown possessed the right of giving new
charters ; but Parliament was now called upon not only to set
aside any particular rights of existing corporations, and to give
new privileges, but to revoke all existing charters for these
towns, and to put their municipal government on a different
footing than had hitherto been acted on.—( Hear, hear.) In
point of fact it was interfering with the prerogative of the
Crown, and was acting on a revolutionary principle. It was
taking away the rights belonging to one branch of the Legis-
lature, and disposing of them in a different manner.—( Hear.)
The Corporations said that the Commissioners accused them
of certain offences, and that such charges were unfounded, and
they offered to disprove them. He could not believe that the
result of the present motion would be a refusal on the part of
the House to hear such evidence. It had been said that the
statements of lawyers were to be received with hesitation, as
they were apt to exaggerate the merits of the case they
espoused.. It appeared to him that the Commissioners were
open to similar charges that had been brought against the
lawyers. They were lawyers, and he believed that their
labours would not bear the test of examination; and, cer-
tainly, after what had taken place, he looked with great suspi-
cion at their Reports. No one would deny that nineteen out
of twenty of the Commissioners were pattisans.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) He believed that at least that number of
them were Whigs.—( Hear, bear, hear.) It was well known
that the Secretary of the Commissioners had been the Se-
cretary of the Birmingham Political Union.—L Lord Mel-
bourne observed across the table that it wa,... not the case.] He
had always understood so, but probably his Noble Friend knew
better than himself on the subject. He should like, however,
before ho proceeded to legislate, to know how far the chsr ges
brought against corporations were founded in truth. He knew
that it would be said cut of doors, if their Lordships assented
to his motion for hearing evidence at the bar, that they did so
for the purpose of interposing delay ; but he denied, as a man
of honour, that he supported the motion on any such grond,
or that it was founded on fact.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would very shortly state
the grounds which induced him to Oppeee Ole motion. He was
convinced, whatever might be the intention of Noble Lords
opposite, that if it were sanctioned, it would be equivalent to
the destruction of the measure under consideration.—( Hear.)
He did not mean to contradict the assertions of the Noble
Lords as to their intentions, when they stated that they were
not unwilling to promote the reform of municipal corpora-
tions ; but he could not help observing, that in their eagerness
to put an end to abuses--that in their anxiety to forward the
remedies for the evils they admitted to exist in the present
corporations—they were likely to stifle the measure in their
embraces.---( Hear, hear.) He was convinced, whatever
might be Noble Lords intentions, that if they sanctioned
this proposition, they would be guilty of preventing the sue-
CCs, of this measure, the object of which was to supply those
defects, and remedy those abuses, which were admitted by
every one of their Lordships to exist in those Corporations,
and which were admitted to exist even by the Learned Gen-
tlemen who had appeared at the bar.--( Hear, hear, from a
Noble Lord.) He was glad that there was only one Member
of their Lordships' House who entertained a contrary opinion.
He believed that he was justified in stating, that there was a
prevailing feeling throughout the country in favour of this
measure: And in the other House, where there was an Op-
position formidable for its talents and the experience of its
leaders, as well as for its numbers, what was the conduct pur-
sued with regard to this Bill, which was to confiscate, as they
had been told, the rights and privileges of Corporations
?
( Hear' hear.) He could not help contrasting the language
used by the Noble and Learned Lord, with respect to this Bill,
with the conduct manifested elsewhere by the Opposition with
respect to it.--( Cheers.) This Bill might be as detestable in
its object, and as unconstitutional in its character, as it had beee
described to be; yet it had not been impeded in the: other
House on any such ground ; it had not even beer, opposed in
its principle in any one stage of its progress through that place.
Cheers.) He was glad to hear from the Noble Lord op-
posite, a declaration that the priuttAe of self-election was the
cause of the prevalence of the abuses which existed in Corpo-
rations. On this principle, then, it appeared they all agreed;
and it might almost be assumed that their object in corn.
mon was the utter and final extinction of this bad system
of election.—( Cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord, how-
ever, with that sign of prudence which was peculiar to him
when he addressed the House, took care in no one sentence of
his speech which he could tax himself with recollecting, to ad-
mit that he would consent to see the principle of self-election
altered.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord, with
all that caution which was characteristic of a very prudent
man, who was not exactly aware of the situation he might be
placed in another year, had carefully left to himself a loop-
hole through which he might creep, and make the admission
that such Reform as was now proposed was necessary.—
( Hear, hear.) He challenged any ane to deny that the exa-
mination of witnesses at the bar of their Lordships' House
would be equivalent to defeating the Bill altogether, in any
shape, or in all shapes.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble and
Learned Lord had placed his trust in the valuable principle of
self-election.

Lord LYNDHURST denied that•ho.bad made use of any
such expression. The Noble Marquis, by construction, might
draw the inference, but there was no ground for his asserting the
expression had been used by him.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had heard the Noble and
Learned Lord object to the general principle of the Bill, and
had not made the reservation with respect to the principle.
Lord LYNDHURST said that, on the contrary, he had
objected to the principle of self-election in Corporations ; but
he had said that it might be got rid of by other means than by
this Bill.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had understood the
Noble and Learned Lord to argue in the manner he had stated.
Throughout the whole of the Noble Lord's speech there
there was manifestly a tone of alarm at the idea of interfering
with institutions which he had previously said were founded
on the p:inciple of self-election, and the rejection of that po-
pular suffrage which was in harmony with the constitution of
the new municipal bodies to be appointed under this Bill.
The Noble and Learned Lord had warned the House on
this subject, and had said, God, forbid that their Lordships
should place such power at the foot of what he was pleased
to call the democracy, because the people and public of this
country were to be indulged with the exercise of the right of
administering their own, and to have their municipal
tins framed so that they might be of the great‘nt use, and
P romote the benctit of those most deeply interested, He
did not quarrel with the use of those institutions in former
times, but they did not stand on a suffii:ieAtly broad basis, con-
sidering
sat the extended knowle(tothe present times. It
must be admitted that no ton Moving in any society in the
metropolis could untef• into discussion in any room who must
tio admit the great increase of .knowledge amongst ail
latsies—not that they were sue'n perfect legislators or lawyers
as the Noble and Learned Lord—but who, by practice and
oxperieaco, were qualified to judge of their own concerns,
and weal as sell able to manage them as the most learned
and experienced. He assumed that knowledge and expe-
rience went together, and perfectly prepared the people for

eaoaaane
the management and control off their own affalrs.
was a person comparatively, opulent, and he had inot
the slightest hesitation in saying that his less wealthy
neighbours had introduced such wholesome Reforms into the
management of parish affairs 119 had been profitable to hirnielfs
as well as to those of the same station as himself. He could
tell the ishabe and Learned Lord who had cautioned their
Lordships against sanctioning this Bill, as it would lead to the
insecurity of property, that his poorer neighbours in any p4a
risk in London, would be found to promote the best mariwca
meet of local Affairs ; and in proportion as the elections Wert
rendered more popular, so far from the rich losing, and their
property being confiscated, that their interests would Le pro.
tected. The interests of the rich and the gentry t7)rocpupirtio;
motel and secured by those who were the teebeects of aye, of annual elections, which the Noble and Learned Lord
had expressed so much alarm at. The Noble and Learned
Lord said, that if this measure were allowed to be carried,
political intrigues and cabals wouldltiun;oedieuecteiodn,san..edreevo:iisi
every one of the places in which
tedin.
He rose chiefly for the
tion of his Noble Fe' puee
,05,, of adverting to the observe,
Reper;
end, that this Bill u.'hs founded rti the
enich so many objections Inid been made. He would
mey repeat what fell fawn his Noble Friend at the table, that
the Report n.ight be laid aside, and they need not assume that
the Bill was founded on it. If this were done, they might,
as was said by his Noble Friend, take the notoriety of the
case, coupled with the Report.—(Cheering.) Taking both
together, surely there was sufficient ground to proceed.
This was not a Bid of pains and penalties, for if it were,
they would not only be obliged to hear all the evidence to
be adduced by Sir Charles Wetherell, but, also, counsel
and evidence from every Corporation in the empire. The
Noble Lord said that he wished to see the evidence, in
order that he might apportion the remedy ; now that was pre-
cisely what lie (the Marquis of Lansdowne) did not wish to
do. He did not wish to go into an inquiry as to the different
degrees of that which was objectionable in each particular case.
—(Hear, hear.) He wished to have a general measure,
founded upon the entire of the abuses, and which, while it
cured the whole, would do no more injury to the corporations of
the country than would the Bill respecting Local Courts, in-
troduced by his Noble and Learned Friend last year, and
which he wished to God had been passed by their Lordships.
That Bill had for its object the abolishing of certain useless
courts on the ground of public expediency, and the creation of
new and efficient ones. Whatever the industry of scone of their
Lordships might glean out of the four or five volumes of which
the Report consisted, he would say that he saw nothing in them
to justify that general sort of imputation in which the Noble
ant Learned Lord had indulged, to the effect that this was a
party measure, to be used for party purposes.—(Cheers.)
What were the Noble Lords opposite admitting if what they
stated about this being a party measure were correct ? Were
they of opinion that those principles, and that party to which
they were attached, stood so low in the opinion of the po-
pulation of this country, that the mere destruction of the self-
deated Corporations- was to overthrow their interest ?
(Cheers.) Were they of opinion that the mere introduction
of the principle of popular election into these bodies would
establish that principle which they held so in abhorrence, and
which the Noble and Learned Lord would say was the
Whirr principle, or something more than Whig?—( laugh and cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord had
thought proper to indulge in a course of observations upon
the Gentlemen who drew up this Report, for which the
siight expression of approbation which accompanied it did not
afford a very satisfactory apology.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
and Learned Lord said he knew them to be most respectable
individuals, of strict honour and integrity in private life ; yet
he, on the other hand, asserted, that they would lend them-
selves for party purposes to carry on a quasi judicial inquiry ;
and that they would collect evidence, and partially select the
facts that came before them, with the intention of misleading
the Government and Parliament as to the result of their in-
quiry. —( Hear.) It was easy to fix a vague stigma upon pub-
lic men—(llear)—and the Noble and Learned Lord dealt
largely in that sort of stigma, his object being to fix a particu-
lar character upon those gentlemen. He could assure the
Noble and Learned Lord, that with their politics lie was him-
self unacquainted; they might be what the Noble and Learned
Lord had described them ; but suppose that the Noble and
Learned Lord was quite right in that respect, he did rot know
that the circumstance of a man being born a Whig, and something
more than Whig, waste, disqualify him from any sort of judi-
cial feectiees,...(Cheers. ) lie was efraid that if the cir-
cumstance of an individual having been " a Whig, or some-
thing more than Whig," were to be a disqualification, it would
reach to much higher and more eminent characters—( Great
cheering)—than those who had been subject to the Noble and
Learned Lord's insinuations.—( Renewed cheers.) He would
say, in justice to individuals both in this House and out of it,
that he did not believe that the circumstance of having been
a Whig, and something more than Whig, unfitted a man fur
the exercise of any public function.—(Cheering.) But thought
the Noble and Learned Lord endeavoured to cast only
vague imputations upon the characters of most of the Com-
missioners, there was one imputation in which he indulged
which was of a specific nature. The Noble and Learned
Lord, for the purpose of effect and creating an unfavour-
able impression against one of the individuals who was not
here to defend himself, wound up his list of characters, re-
peating it again and again, with the remark that Mr. Parkes
was the Secretary of the Birmingham Political Union. Now
in this single instance, in which the Noble and Learned Lord
condescended to name a specific fact, he was mistaken as to
that fact.—( A laugh and cheers.) He had received the most
distinct assurance that Mr. Parkes never was the Secretary of
the Birmingham Political Union—(Cheers, and one or two
cries of " No," from the Opposition side.) He was quoting
the expression of the Noble and Learned Lord : he imputed
again and again that Mr. Parkes was Secretary of the Dir-
t:nigh= Political Union—( Hear, hear)-:-and lie now told
him that he was afraid that that imputation was incor-
rect. No doubt the Noble and Learned Lord was mistaken ;
but finding that he was so, would he not extend a little of
the charity to those Commissioners which he was under the ne-
cessity of claiming for himself Cheers.) He had charged
the Commissioners with inaccuracy, to lower they in their
individual estimation; but he hoped that the Noble Lord
would admit, that with the greatest care, it was not always
possible to come to a correct conclusion. lie knew not the
mode, indeed, by which they could obtain that mass of evidence
which they required on such a subject, without being betrayed
into a few mistakes, which industry might bring Out, and that
might be used even as those which had been culled had been used
this night. If their Lordships were prepared to go into a
close inquiry as to this subject; if they were determined
to have stated to them all the facts and contradictory
facts connected with the Bill; if such were to be their course
of proceeding, who could guarantee that it would end in a
month, or a year, or two years ?—( Cheers.) He contended
that they were already in possession of abundant facts upon
which the most implicit reliance might be placed. It was
notorious that abuse to a great extent had existed ; such
abuse existed now, and their Lordships were called upon to
apply the remedy. lie could not enforce on them in a better
way the extent to which the impression as to the abuses
that prevailed in the public mind than by quoting from ono
of those commissioners whom the Neble and Learned Lord
excepted from his censures, The Noble and Learned Lord
had done that gentleman justice, because he had put in a
protest. The gentleman to whom he referred was Sir F. Pal-
grave, whom 'habit) Lords opposite would consider an unex-
ceptionable witness. He had the honour of knowing that gen-
tleman hireteeil, and begged to be allowed to say that he much
respecter him, and believed him to be greatly in favour of the
ailij'quate.d institutions of his country. He would now tell
Clem what it was that, with respect to those institutions,
this gentleman stated; he did not speak of facts, but as to
the general expression. He said, " Upon examination of the
evidence afforded by the Reports, it appears that, taking the
municipal system as a whole, the ancient efficiency of the
corporate institutions of England and Wales is diminished,
and in some particular instances nearly destroyed."—( Hear.)
Ile went on to say, Whilst every other portion of the po-
licy of the realm has been gradually adapted to the progress
of society, the improvement of municipal law has been
wholly neglected, and municipal corporations are la-
bouring at present under the incumbrance of institu-
tions which have ceased to harmonize with the general
.system of our jurisprudence, and the influence of pri-
vileges or immunities, which, however injurious they may
have become, have, up to the present day, been created, pro-
tected, and fostered by the law." That was the opinion of the
" Tory" Sir F. Paigrave, as the Noble and Learned Lord de
scribed him to be. In other parts he pointed out the denial
of justice which took place in a great many of the smaller of
these Corporations, from the impossibility of' forming juries,
thus tainting the very fountain of justice at its source. Was
it necessary to read more than this as to the general opinions
entertained of these Corporations to justify the adoption of a
larger measure for placing the foundation of municipal justice,
and the financial administration of every portion of the country
upon the basis on which alone it would be rendered, secure,
viz., the principle of free election as opposed to the principle
of self-election. These were 'the grounds on which he asked
their Lordships to proceed without delay into the committee
on this Bill, where they would be enabled to consider any
amendments that might be proposed, and he admitted that he
had heard some suggested that he would be happy to see in-
corporated in the Bill. He begged pardon for having address-
ed them at such length, but he felt it his duty to do so, being
deeply impressed with he paramount importance of the plea-
sure.-4 Cheers. )
Lord LYNDHURST, in explanation, never intended to
slake a charge against the Commissioners—the Oharge he made
was against those who appointed them.—(P:ea' r, hear.) He
did not intend to say that the Commis":ioners,had not acted
according to their best judgment, butearerybody knew that party
feelings might give a bias to ram's minds. Amongst some
other of the gentlemen he knew Mr. Austin particularly, and
greatly respected him. So much for that. There was another point on which lie wished to remark. He felt that the Noble
Marquis, in what he bad said of those who wore Whigs, and
something more than NYhigs, had conveyed an insinuation
aaeainst him. He teener belonged to any party till ho came to
the House of 'Ards. Ile had never belonged to any political
society he had been in Parliament for sixteen years, and he
7:l;heil the Noble Marquis, if he could, to point out any speech
or act of his which would justify his being described as a Whig
or something more than Whig.
The Duk of NEWCASTLE opposed this Bill on the .
ground, that it would be an infringement of the Royal prero-
gative, and attack the rights of his fellow subjects secured to
them by charters from the earliest period. He conceived
that the Commission was decidedly illegal—thrA it had been
proved to be so by Noble Lords on his side of the House,
and the illegality of the Commission ren'Atired the Report
irregular. The measure founded on ibis Report was of a
most flagitious character, and he presr.med would not be pressed
by their Lordships. This being a Bill of pains and penal.
ti's, it was impossible that, acting in their judicial charaotett>
they could pass it without calling evidence. He confessed be
was a Reformer.—(A laugh.) He objected to tbe word Res