The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-14 00:00:00

ciful tithe-proctor. Do I wish, in saying this, to assert
that the landlord should be allowed to profit by the aboli-
tion of tithes? By no means; but if a new mode of as-
sessment be proposed for the express purpose of relieving
the peasantry, it should be much smaller in amount, or it
should be allocated for their advantage, otherwise you leave
the evil unredressed, and only increase the unpopularity n!
the landlord by making him the tithe proctor. It should
alto be recollected that a reformed Parliament would repeal
the corn laws, and that agricultural produce would be
depreciated, This would lower tithes, were tithes conti-
nued. The general impression in Ireland is, that after the
present incumbents, the clergy should be remunerated in
the ratio of services required from them in the first place,
anti performed by them in the next. • I wish not to dispa
rage the present incumbents, forsome of whom I entertain
the highest respect ; but it is a question whether, if the
present Church lands were leased, or sold for their full
amount, they might not afford ample means for the main•
tenance of the clergy of the Protestant religion, and whe-
ther the residue of the Church property might not be
allotted, at a future period, for the benefit of the poor.
Mr. SHEIL felt himself bound in justice to the people
of Ireland, as well as to his own feelings, to complain of
the language used by the Right Hon. Gentleman near
him, the Secretary for Ireland. He was sure that that
Right Hon. Gentleman had no intention of conveying an
idea to the House that he was the advocate of a stern and
uncompromising administration of the Government of
Irtlland ; hut some portion of his language might he misin-
terpreted into something of that sort. Now any thing ap-
proaching to that would, he thought, be most injudicious
in the present circumstances of that country. The time
had arrived when leniency ought to he resorted to, for
every modification of violence and severity had already
been tried. It had been alleged in the course of the pre-
sent discussion, that the Protestant clergy were not to
blame; indeed, the warmest eulegiums had been pro-
nounced upon those gentlemen, and he was as ready as
any Member of that House could desire to admit that
many amongst them were most excellent and worthy men ;
but let the House only look at the plain truth. Could any
man acquainted with the condition and circumstances of

Ireland, doubt that in many places and on many occasions
the Protestant clergy of Ireland have allowed themselves
to do and say much which it would have been infinitely
better never to have ventured on ? For the pur-
pose of establishing this position he referred at consider-
able length to the evidence given by Sir John Hervey on
the subject, contending that the evidence of that gentle.
man established in the clearest manner that their conduct
had been such as by no means to exempt them from some
of the charges and same of the grounds of complaint
against them ",,d by the tithe payers. Amongst the
instances lie mentioned of the conduct on the part of the
clergy calculated to distress the rersons from whom they
derived their income, there was that of their demanding
their tithes in full English currency, when it was univer-
sally expected that they would have been received in Irish
currency. He (Mr. S.) was as ready as any Membet of
that House to afford the clergy the necessary relief, hut he
should vote for that relief on the same principle as that on

which relief had been afforded to the inhabitants of Barba-

does—they and their property had been swept away by a
moral hurricane, and he would do the same for them that
was to be done for those who had suffered by the physical
evil of an analogous character, without stopping to inquire
whether they had themselves evoked it. He was glad to
perceive in the resolutions the words " Revenue of the
Church" had not been used ; lie hailed that omission
as a most favourable omen, and one which gave a
hope that justice might be done to Ireland. It might
be convenient to the present Government to wear a
Mask, but sooner or later they must come to a new
appropriation of that property ; eventually it must come to
that. The present Government might rest assured that
they would never carry an efficient Reform, unless they
set out with executing it in conformity with their original
design ; the Bill, they might be assured, would never come
back to the House without fifty new coronets on its head.
No, they might rely upon this, that the present measure
Would do nothing more than call up the scorn and the
anger of the peop'e of Ireland. It was impolitic to make
the Crown the collector of tithes, if for no other reason,
for this at all events, that it would transfer to the Crown
the odium which the tithe system had brought upon the

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Church.—(Hear, hear.) But what were those arrears for
the recovery of which the Crown was to become a suitor
in:every Civil Court in Ireland? Tithes upon potatoes—a
tax which was exacted only in the south of Ireland. The
north was free from the oppressive exaction; but yet one
third of all the arrears now due were tithes of potatoes.—
(Hear, hear.) Ile made that assertion on the authority
of the Rev. Mr. Langrishe, in the examination of that
gentleman before the Committee. Why, then, should the
Lord Lieutenant become the collector of tithes in the south
of Ireland, which the clergy in the north of Ireland had
never claimed.—(Hear, hear.) He implored the House
not to legislate hastily upon so vital a question—to wait
until the final report of the Committee should be brought
np. He concluded by asking, could any gentleman, who
had the welfare of Ireland at heart, stand up in that House
and say that he could approve of any Bill that should be
founded on those resolutions.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL began by observing, that in the twelve

Years during which be had sat in that House, he had never
heard a question discussed there, the issue of which was
snore important to the interests of the country, and to the
permanence of the institutions of Government. The
first resolution before the Committee was to pledge the
Rouse that it would en able the Government to recover

the sums actually due ; the last resolution likewise pledged
the House to take into consideration the expediency of an
extensive change in the present system of providing for the
maintenance of the ministers of the Church, involving an
extinction of tithes, in the mode of a commutation, either
for land or for rent chargeable on land. On general prin-
ciples, he objected to pledges that at a future time the
House would do something, because, if the measure was
good, a pledge was unnecessary, for it ought to be pre-
sumed that the House was always prrpared to do what
Was fur the benefit of the country. Abstractedly, too,
pledges were liable to be resorted to merely as a mode of
relieving Government from present embarrassments ; and
he could not c•+ll to mind that he had ever been a party

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to such pledge. With respect to the present question,
this was not the first time it had come before the House,
or that a pledge had been given upon it ; yet it was to be
recollected, that nothing had been done to redeem those
pledges. So long back as 1642, the House had referred
it to a Committee, to consider what was best
to be done for the commutation of tithes, and to re-
port its opinion ; which opinion had never been reported.
And on a subsequent occasion an alteration in the
system of Church property had been negatived by 27
to 17. He (Sir R. Peel), however, was content to make
an exception, on this occasion, to his general rule of con-
duct. He did not think that he should be acting with a
due regard to the interests of the Protestant Church, or
to the interests of religion, if he did not make the excep-
tion. He was prepared to go into the consideration of a
plan for an Jslteratien of the present system of providing
for the maintenance of the Established, Church. Con-
sidering, however, the liability of the language used in
such cases to misconstruction, he theught it unwise to in-
troduce the words " extinction of tithes." He feared the
consequences of a misconstruction of these words amongst
an excitable population ; for the words " extinction of
tithes" might be construed by the peasantry of Ireland to
mean that tithes were extinguished, and they would refuse
to pay them. As two years must elapse before the plan
of Government could take effect, he feared that this erro-
neous impression pervading Ireland would lead to the
spreading of the combination against tithes already exist-
ing,, and tend to defeat the object of Government. He
would state the qualifications under which he gave his
consent to the resolutions. He gave it on the distinct
understanding that it was meant to provide for the Church
of Ireland a just and fair equivalent.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Sir R. Peel) did not mean to exclude a fair and just con-
sideration of the state of the Church of Ireland—(Hear)
—but he distinctly understood that the revenues of
the Church were to be appropriated to strictly ecclesi-
astical purposes.—(Hear, hear, hear.) That was the
meaning of the words in the report of the Com-
mittee, that the revenues of the Church are thus
effectually secured." There were other questions which
were to be likewise settled, in order that this question,
like that of Catholic emancipation, might be so left as to
prevent future agitation.—(Hear.) With this under.
Standing and this qualification, he was ready to pledge
himself to the consideration of this question. One reason
he had was, the support which Government required in
consequence of the first resolution, which was of equal im-
portance to enable them to recover from those who were
Justly and legally liable to pay them the arrears of tithes,
atondhto reimhuse the sums advanced from the public funds
pat eeuffering clergy of Ireland. He bad heard with
Farru om the Hon. Member for Kildare (Mr. Moore
ell), that his objection to the payment of tithes was,
that he felt the!
Peel) had hopend,toaftbeer a badgeh ofiecno)nentituesotf. t
hHi eSatihrolliti..
riwuiethstion, which
Placed
thet e
Hon.sett
Member on 'an equality
other Meuibers of that House, that all these irritating
topics had merged in
that great measure—(Hear)—and the
Roman Catholics themselves had declared that, if theit
political
disabilitinelewere removed, they would make no
objection to the payment of tithes.—( Hear.) He would
adduce evidence 011 this point which would convince the
Hon. Gentleman himself.
refer red to the evidence The Right Hon Baronet then
of the Catholic Prelates, Dre.

Ke'ly, Murray, and Doyle, for the purpose of showing that
othes were not tczarded as a peculiar grievance by the
Roman Catholics, and that their objection to the continu
once of the present system was not greater than
'hat entertained by many Protestants. It seemed to be ad-
mitted on all hands, that vested interests established by
law ought to be provided for ; and that the landlords ought
not to be gainers by the abolition of tithes. How, then,
could any one who admitted these two propositions vote
with consistency against the resolutions submitted to the
Committee? An Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr
Sheil) expressed a disinclination to convert the Govern-
ment of Ireland into tithe proctors for the Irish Church ;
;and had asked what public inconvenience would arise, if a
clergyman failed to enforce his claim? lie answered that
the great public inconvenience of an individual suffering
wrong would result.—( Hear, hear.) It became necessary
for the Government to protect the clergyman in the enjoy-
inent of his right ; for if once the people were allowed to
defeat by combination the legal claim of the clergy, they
would succeed by the same combination in defeating the
claim of the landlord.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman then said that an unjust law should
not be enforced. But who, he asked, was to be the judge
of the injustice of the law? Was the Irish peasant
to be permitted to say, that any particular law, with
respect to which he might feel some objection, was an un-
just one, and he would not obey it, whatever might be the
opinion of the Legislature on the subject ? He repeated,
that if Parliament, by their connivance or encouragement,
al'owed the Irish peasant to succeed in resisting the legal
claim of the clergy, he would next endeavour to avoid
satisfying every other legal demand ; and out of their
apathy and connivance would at last grow the dominion
of the mob.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Barnet
then proceeded to quote several passages from Plowden's
History of Ireland, for the purpose of showing that the
different combinations which, under various denomina-
tions, had agitated Ireland, from IWO to !SOO, though
always commencing their operations by attacking tithes,
invariably proceeded to not only di,pute the county cess,
but also the landlord's rent, and even the dues of the Ca.
tholic priests themselves.—(Hear, hear.) It was there-
fore absolutely necessary that some precaution should be
taken in order to check this growing indisposition to satisfy
legal claims. One gentleman had proposed that the
House should wait until the Committee up stairs had
completed its labours befora coming so any decision on
the subject. He, however, was of opinion, that if the
spirit of combination was to be checked at all, it was true
mercy to check it as soon as possible.—(Hear, hear.)--
Any delay would only add wings to its already rapid pro-
gress. If the adoption of necessary measures was post-
poned until the close of the session, every tithe-payer in
Ireland would suppose that Parliament was indisposed to
enforce the legal demands of the clergyman, and the con-
sequence would be, that before the end of the year the op-
position to the payment of tithes would have spread from
the six counties, in which at present the spirit of insubor-
dination prevailed, to the whole thirty-two counties of
the country. What, then, would he the use of attempt-
ing to arrange any plan for the commutation of tithes after
they were practically abolished ?—(Hear, hear.) If in-
terference, therefore, was necessary, as he believed it to
be, it ought, both in justice and mercy, to be speedy.--
(Hear, hear.) He called upon the Irish landlords, who
had disclaimed any wish to derive advantage from the abo•
lition of tithes, whether their opposition to the proposi-
tion of Government was not calculated to produce an
effect contrary to their intention. If tithes were abolished,
and no power given to Government to collect the arrears,
the Irish landlords would, be feared, however repugnant
it might be to their feelings, gain a profit from a change
of the system. On the understanding that the revenues
of the Church were to be applied strictly to ecclesiastical
purposes, he would vote for the last resolution.—(Cheers.)
Lord ALTHORP rose at the same time with the Right.
Hon. Baronet, and he did not regret that he had given
way to him, for the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed
his sentiments in a more able manner than he could have
done himself. He regretted to differ upon this ocsasion
with many Hon. Gentlemen with whom he usually acted,
but he felt it his duty to stand by the resolutions which
had been submitted to the House. Objections had been
taken to the tone of the address by which his Right Hon.
Friend had introduced the resolutions, but he thought
there was no ground for complaint in that respect. It
was absolutely necessary that the power of the law should
be supported, and turbulence suppressed in Ireland. And
Government which hesitated to adopt measures to effect
these objects would be unworthy of the confidence of Par-
liament. Like the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, he sup-
ported the resolutions on the understanding that the Church
revenues were not to be applied to any but Church uses.
Lord KILLEEN thought that it was but an act of jus-
tice to repay the Clergy the arrears of tithe which were
due, and he also was of opinion that the rights of the pre-
sent incumbents ought to be considered as vested rights.
He was, however, dezidedly of opinion that the revenues
of the Church should be made more suitable to the cir-
curnstancea of the country. The Church never could be
secure whilst it was the object of the antipathy of the
people. He begged the House to understand that be would
never violate the oath which he took on entering the House
never to use the power which be might possess in attempt-
ing to overthrow the Established Church.—(Hear.)
Mr. RUTH YEN moved that the Chairman do report
progress.---(Cries of "Go on," and " Adjourn.")
Lord ALTHORP and Mr. STANLEY besought the Hon.
Member not to persevere in his motion.
Mr. H. GRATTAN intended to divide the Committee
on the third resolution, and to move an amendment on the
last. Under these circumstances he put it to the Noble
Lord whether he had not better consent to adjourn the dis-
cussion.

Lord ALTHORP would consent to the postponement
of the last resolution.
Mr. WYSE meant to divide the Committee on each of
the resolutions.

Lord ALTHORP said, that in that case the Chairman
must report progress. _

The House then resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported
progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Thursday.
The other Orders of the Day being disposed of, the House
adjourned at Half-past Two o'clock.