The Sun.
London, England, 1866-05-29 00:00:00

TAE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 29, 1866.

the assurance I had received from the Government, that
the house should have a fair opportunity of discussing
the whole measure before we went into committee.
(Cheers.) I was most anxious not to embarrass the Govern-
ment on that occasion, but at the same time I was so anxious
L that the house should have an opportunity of expressing
L an opinion upon the complete measure that I should have
been satisfied if I had succeeded in my attempt, which was
• to have a discussion though not a division on that occa-
sion, because a discussion on the second reading of the re-
distribution Bill would have enabled the house to consider
the complete measure of the Government. I gave every
opportunity to the Government, if they had chosen to
avail themselves of that occasion, generally to consider
that subject. A right hon. gentleman a Secretary of State
did me the honour, certainly, to reply to the observations
I made ; several gentlemen, however, rose on this side and
offered their views to the house, but were not responded
to, and it appeared—it might be by some unfortunate acci-
dent—that the Government and their supporters were
not prepared to take the debate on that occasion. (Hear,
hear.) In what position do we now find ourselves? To-
night a very important amendment has been at length
proposed to the question that the Speaker do leave the
chair. It has been proposed in a speech of considerable
detail, and seconded in a speech of great ability, and enter-
ing very much into the details and merits of the scheme of
the Government ; but really, so far as the Government are
concerned, no notice has been taken of it. (Hear, hear.)
No notice has been taken of the amendments or the speech
either of the mover or seconder. Several gentlemen on this
side of the house had continued the debate for a consider-
able time without the slightest evidence being given to
the house that the Government and their supporters were
even conscious of the subject which was before them.
(Cheers.) But time drew on, and at length it was absolutely
necessary that some individual from the Treasury bench
should rise—and what took place? An hon. and learned
gentleman rose, and, instead of addressing himself to the
amendment of the hon. and gallant gentleman the member
for Wells, or to the speech of his seconder, the hon. mem-
ber for Lichfield, he offered to the house what I suppose
he considered an answer—if it gave him a night of easy
slumber to indulge in that dream, I will not disturb it—
(cheers and a laugh)—to some observation which I made
some weeks ago before the holidays. (Cheers and a laugh.)
There is only one inference to be drawn from this. I
cannot suppose that the Government are not conscious of
the importance of this subject or the merits of this mea-
sure. I can only draw this inference—that they are not
prepared for the discussion which the house seems very
anxious should be proceeded with. (Hear, hear.) It appears
to me, therefore, that the best course will be for us not to
interfere with the business of to-morrow—let that take its
course ; and so on Wednesday. I take it for granted that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer has no engagement for
Thursday—(cheers and laughter)—and we may then be
capable of taking that part in the debate on this subject
which I think both houses and the country require. (Hear,
hear.) The amendment has not been noticed by the Go-
vernment or their supporters—(hear)—and on this occa-
sion they have avoided any discussion when it was offered
to them under circumstances that show it was offered with
no intention of embarrassing them, and the house having
had no opportunity till now of viewing as a whole the
scheme of the Government, I think the most discreet
course for us is to let this debate be adjourned till a future

day, in order that those who ought to take a leading part
in it may be able to address the house with that amount of
reflection without which no debate can be conducted with
advantage to the country, and without which we shall
occupy a position scarcely creditable to ourselves. (Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT—I think that those who sent us here,
when to-morrow they read the report of what has taken
place, especially the speeches made on the other side of
the house, will be extremely gratified at the new zeal of
honourable gentlemen opposite with regard to the ques-
tion of purity of election (a laugh) and their gratification
will be the greater if they should happen to believe in that
zeal. Now, there is no man in the house, lam sure,
notwithstanding the speeches that have been made,
and there is no man out of it, who knows anything about
the principles of law-making, who is not quite certain of
this—that to attempt to draw up a series of clauses upon
all matters affecting the conduct of elections, with a view
to insert them in this bill, is not a proceeding which is wise
with raedgavredrseto
tot thheqe bill
lon nowof
be
purityfore
of
the election,house.
((Hear,eu
and is
hear.) The Attorney-General has already stated that, and
I repeat it. This question of purity of election is a very
great and a very difficult question. We have had several
committees of the house to inquire into it. I recollect
sitting on a committee for many weeks with, I think, the
learned gentleman, one of the members for Suffolk, whom
I see opposite. Well, every kind of proposition almost
was made. Most of the propositions were rejected, and
of those that were accepted by the committee some

have been rejected by the house and some have been
accepted, but those that were accepted have apparently ut-
terly failed. (Hear, hear.) Some members have an idea
that you can suppress bribery and corruption by measures
of punishment. I entertain no such belief. (Hear, hear.)
The law is strong enough now as far as the matter of
punishment is concerned, and yet apparently nothing is
done by the law to suppress bribery. What is clear to
every man who is connected with therepresentative system
in every other country but this is, that you can only sup-
press bribery by having constituencies sufficiently large,
and by having the mode of election by ballot. (Hear, hear.)
Now, sir, I will not go into a discussion of that question,
but an hon. gentleman behind me has referred to it, and I
wish only to utter one sentence with regard to it. It is this
—that there is no country in the world but this in which
we have constant charges and admissions of the gross
bribery which takes place at elections. It is not charged
universally—it is scarcely charged at all in the United
States. (Cries of "Oh " from the Opposition.) It is
not charged in any of the countries on the European
continent. (Oh, oh.) I beg to tell my hon. friend that
the electoral system of all these countries, or nearly
all, differs from that of this country in this particular—
that small constituencies such as wo have, manageable
constituencies, are not known, and vote by ballot is all
but universal. (Hear, hear.) Now, the hon. gentleman
the member for Northamptonshire has proposed that the
house should go into an entirely newquestion in committee
on this bill. I venture to say that, whether he be honest
in making this proposal now with a view to forward gene-
rally the cause of Reform or not, I am quite sure that the
L result of his proposition, and I fear the object of his pro-
' position—(oh, oh !)—as far as it is supported by many
gentlemen—(hear, hear)—is to cumber the bill of the Go-
vernment so that it shall be impossible to pass it through
Parliament during this session. (Cheers.) Ido not know
whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as leader of the
house, and the most influential member of the Government,
shall think fit to accede to any such proposition. I think
he has not gained much by having acceded to the proposi-
tion of the member for Kilmarnock. (Hear, hear.) I
believe the proper course to be taken with regard to
Reform was that which the Government offered to the
house in the first instance (hear, hear) and that
every step they take in adding to their measure any of
more
ee poorompporseithieonnssivwehichin make
now the
whichbill
adreoiningte
something
nded
t
may be necessary to be done, but which they have not
proposed to do at present—is only adding to their difficul-
ties in carrying any bill at all. (Hear, hear.) And I state
without hesitation my opinion that outside this house
every member, whether he be on this side or upon that
who insists on adding to this bill matter which does not c
come within its original scope of extending the franchise, 1
or of rearranging the distribution of seats, will be adjudged
as a man who is putting obstacles in the path of this bill
—(" Oh," and cheers)—and is desirous to embarrass the
Government, whose difficulties, whatever else we may
disagree about, we must all admit are at least sufficient
for the time. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. DISRAELI—I merely rise to say that I feel con-
fident the house will come to a decision on the question
before it without any fear cf the reign of terror with
which we are threatened. (Cheers.) The fact is that
those threats are repeated too often, and not having been
frightened by the letter that was read at Primrose Hill—
(cheers)—the House of Commons will not be deterred
from doing that which, under the circumstances, I clearly
believe it to be the duty of the House of Commons to per-
form. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman who has
just addressed us has taunted us with a new-born zeal
in favour of measures to put down corruption and
bribery at elections. (Hear, hear.) But lam not aware
that we on this side of the house were ever particularly
interested in maintaining that system of corruption.
I always understood that the great mass of gentlemen
on this side of the house were returned by county con-
stituencies—at least have represented constituents
to whom, never for a moment, corruption has been
attributed. (Cheers.) I do not find that with
regard to borough elections the gentlemen on this side of
the house have any cause to be afraid of confronting this
question. (Hear, hear.) Whether the feelings of the hon.
gentleman, and those intimately connected with him are
the same—(Opposition cheers and laughter)—l shall not
stop to inquire ; but if we are attacked upon these heads,
I can only say that we may appeal to the annals of Wake-
field and Huddersfield. (Cheers.) The transactions that
in these instances were proved to have taken place, and
were properly condemned, were not perpetrated by mem-
bers who profess Conservative opinions. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel CROSSLAND, amid cries of Order," rose to
explain, and was understood to say that it was not the last
election the right hon. gentleman was referring to.
Mr. DISRAELI —Whether the experience was more
recent, or whether it was at'a more distant date, I under-
stand from the hon. gentleman that he agrees that my
statement with regard to the constituency was quite accu-
rate. (Laughter.) Let me ask the house what they are
called upon to do by the instruction moved by my hon.
friend the member for Northamptonshire. It is, in my
mind, to perform a duty which it is the very first which
the house ought to consider under the circumstances in
which the Government have placed them with respect to
these measures
for the improvement of the representation
of the people in Parliament. And what is the argument
of the Government? The Attorney-General, who made a
speech
which was really only explanatory of the speech
of
the- Chancelthat there was no"
lor of the Exchequer, said
precedent for this, and that in 1832, whenthe great mea-
sure
_ house
of Parliamentary Reform was introduced,

was not asked to deal with the question of corruption or
bribery when it was dealing with the franchise and
redistribution of seats and other matters of that
kind. Of course not. In 1832 you were creating the con-
stituencies that have since been corrupted. The case is not
at all parallel. What has occurred in cons& pence of the
Reform of 1832 in this respect was not co) atemplated at
that time, but we must profit by the experience of what
has occurred since 1832. We know the mer►sure of 1832,
though it has been fraught with incalculable benefits to
the country, has greatly increased bribery and corruption
at elections ; and when we are called upon to increase the
constituencies, to institute fresh borough representation,
what is more natural than that we should profit by the
experience of the past, and at the same time lake means
and measures by which this great evil should not be in-
creased, but rather reduced. Therefore I conceive it is
impossible we can refrain from acceding to the instruction
of my hon. friend the member for Northamptonshire, and
I am still in hopes that her Majesty's Government will re-
lieve the house from the trouble of a division upon the
motion. (Hear, hear.)

Sir G. GREY retorted upon the Opposition that they
had assented to the second reading of the kill, and now en-
couraged its obstruction, without having had the candour
themselves of placing an amendment on the paper.
Sir H. CAIRNS charged the Government with having,
by their silence, exhibited a desire to stifle digcussion.
Mr. CARDWELL denied the imputation, and said that
it was the earnest desire of the Government to proceed at
the earliest possible moment, and not to interpose a need-
less delay.
• Mr. H. VIVIAN believed the Government were firmly
determined to press forward the bill, and so thinking he
was ready to withdraw the notice he had on the paper, and
invited other gentlemen to follow his example.
Mr COCHRANE had•already given way on one occasion
in favour of the Franchise Bill, and was not prepared to do
so again to promote what he regarded as a most mischiev-
ous measure.
_ _

After some remarks from Lord R. Montagu, Sir M. W.
Ridley, and Mr. Earle, the debate Was adjourned to Thurs-
day.
The Customs and Inland Revenue Bill passed through
committee.

The Indian Prize Money Bill, the Reformatory Schools
Bill, and the Industrial Schools Bill, were severally read a
second time.

Other measures were also advanced a stage, and Mr.
Childers having obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend
the acts relating to the standard weights and measures, and
to the standard trial pieces of tho coin of the realm,
The house adjourned at one o'clock.

Railway and other Companies.

IMPERIAL MERCANTILE CREDIT (LIMITED.)
A general meeting of shareholdersin this associa-
tion was held yesterday at the London Tavern, to
consider the propriety of a voluntary liquidation of
their affairs. Mr. W. Jackson was voted to the
chair.

Some objections having been expressed,
The CHAIRMAN said he had undertaken the office
at the earnest solicitations of some of the largest
shareholders ; he had only recently left a bed of
sickness, and wished that he was not a shareholder.
Acting under legal advice, it was at the request of
the committee of shareholders that the directors
were not present in that capacity. He and the
other members of the committee, having looked
into the past affairs of the company, now asked the
meeting to deal only with the present and the
future. It was due to their creditors and their own
property that they should deal carefully with both.
In reply to a question, he stated that he held 250
shares in the association, and some time before the
stoppage he had purchased 250 shares, but since
that they could not be transferred. Ile thought the
shorter the discussion they had on that occasion the
better it would be for them. He would ask them
to pass unanimously the resolution he had to sub-
mit for a voluntary liquidation if they wished to
avoid the delay and expense of a compulsory wind-
ing up. He could tell them that if their affairs were
now well managed they would get through their
troubles sooner than they expected, and perhaps rea-
lise nearly 20s. in the pound. They had, like other
companies, to pay for their experience, and if they
agreed to the voluntary winding up and the sugges-
tions of the committee he believed that before 12
months from the present time propositions would be
made to them by which they would have one of the
best concerns in the kingdom. They must avoid
banking in finance companies, and banking com-
panies must avoid financing. The finance com-
panies had taken away a great deal of his business
in lending money to contractors, and in return
sharing the profits. The company had £1,500,000
paid up ; they could issue debentures to a certain
amount, so as to enable them to carry out their en-
gagements.' He concluded by moving that the re-
port, an abstract of which has appeared in The Sun,
be received and adopted.
Mr. EAMES seconded the motion, and at the same
time protested against the interference of the large
shareholders without consulting the smaller ones.
He was in favour of the proposition for the volun-
tary winding up, as it was much easier to get into
Chancery than to get out of it. They had 21 direc-
tors, two managers, and one secretary; dividends of
20 per cent. had been paid, yet all at once they had
been brought to a standstill. They had been told at
the last meeting there was no chance of a call, and
now the call was doubled. If only ordinary pru-
dence had been adopted, and care taken not to lock
up capital, the result would have been different.
(Cries of " Time, time.")
The CHAIR3IAN appealed to the meeting as to
whether they wished to go into these matters. Every
one would have something to say, and they would
not be able to get through the business for which
they had met.
Mr. EAMES contended that the present position of
the company had been the result of gross mismanage-
ment, and that the directors ought to be brought to
book for it.
Mr. HOYES, while he admitted the good advice of
the committee, took exception to the manner in
which that committee was appointed at a hole and
corner meeting." Their appointment did not emanate
from the body of the shareholders, and he thought
the directors should have been present to answer for
themselves. In winding up he thought they should
take pattern by the plan adopted in winding up the
Western Bank of Scotland, where they appointed
three liquidators and five shareholders to superintend
the liquidation. They made heavy calls on the share-
holders, paid off every creditor in full, then gradu-
ally and carefully realised the assets and divided them
rateably among the shareholders, and the liquidators
received the thanks of the creditors and shareholders.
They took proceedings against some of the directors
and recovered £171,000 from them toward the
assess. He proposed that Mr. John Ball, of the
firm of Quilter and Ball, be associated with Mr. A.
Young, of the firm of Coleman, Turquand, and
Young, as liquidators, on the ground that Mr.
Young's partners were engaged with the affairs of
Messrs. Peto, Betts, and Co., with whom the asso-
ciation had large transactions. He proposed that
Mr. Ball and Mr. Young be the liquidators, and
that a committee of three shareholders be appointed
to confer with the liquidators, and to superintend
the liquidation.
The CHAIR3IAN said some of the-directors were
in the room, and they did not shirk their respon-
sibility.

The report of the committee was then unani-
mously adopted.
It was announced that within a fortnight another
meeting of shareholders would be held to confirm
the resolutions passed at this meeting.
The CHAIRMAN then moved, " That this associa-
tion be wound up voluntarily under the Companies
Act, 1862."
Sir W. CLAY seconded the motion, and it was
carried unanimously.
Mr. MORRIS, the solicitor, having explained the
advantages to shareholders and creditors of winding
up voluntarily under the supervision of the Court,
The CHAIRMAN moved the following resolution :
—" That if from any cause it should be necessary
or desirable to have the aid of the Court, a proper
application be made to have the voluntary liquida-
tion carried out under the supervision of the Court
as distinguished from a winding up in court."
Mr. HovEs seconded the motion, and it was car-
ried unanimously.
On the motion of. Mr. ROTES, seconded by the
CHAIRMAN, it was agreed that Mr. J. Ball be asso-
ciated with Mr. A. Young as liquidators in the
voluntary winding up.
The CHAIRMAN said, as Messrs. Peto, Betts, and
Co. were mentioned, he thought it right to state
that both Mr. Jay and Mr. Young. 'had examined
the securities lodged by that firm, and found they