The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-12 00:00:00

(BT SUBMARINE AND BRITISH TELEGRAPH.)

GRAVESEND, Friday morning.
Wind calm; tide, one and a half hour's flood; very fine
weather.
Arrived, Aug. 11—Radiant, from Calcutta; John Bull,
from Han.'nirg.

DEAL, Friday Morning.
Wind N.N.E., tight.
Passed—Antigua, for Greenock ; Peninsula, for Gibral-
tar—both from London.

IMPERIAL PARLIAINIENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY).
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the Warrington
and Southport Railway Bill was read a third time and
passed.
CONSOLIDATION FUND APPROPRIATION ACT.
This bill passed through committee.
STAMP DUTIES BILL,
This bill passed through committee.
INDIA LOAN BILL.

. --
On the motion that the house go into committee on this
bill,

The Duke of ARGYLE said he was anxious to address a
few observations to their lordships on this bill. The late
mutiny broke out, and was suppressed before any troops could
be despatched from this country. The sum provided by Par-
liament for the military expenditure in India during the
coming financial year 1859-60 was 12/ millions ; and al-
though it appeared that the reduction, compared with last
year, was only 2/ millions, it was in 'fact 4/ millions, as
would be seen when the losses on Indian railways, and
other sources of expenditure were taken into consideration.
Thus, although 12k millions was the sum voted to
cover the expenditure, three millions were for
compensation, and restoring the balance of expenditure, 91
millions was the actual deficit of the present year. Ex-
cepting the expense of the mutiny, which of course was an
exceptional circumstance, and which seriously affected the
finances of India, they were, at the commencement of the
mutiny, in a state which must be considered satisfactory.
It was also very satisfactory to find that, notwithstanding
the mutiny, there had been no falling off whatever in the
revenue of that country, and although such a circumstance
might appear surprising, yet it certainly was a fact.
Before he resumed his seat he wished to protest against the
statement that our Indian empire had been acquired by a
settled and deliberate policy of annexation. It had, on the
contrary, been acquired by the close contact which existed
between the advancing civilisation of the west and the de-
cay of the eastern race. The noble lord then referred to
the steps to be taken as to reducing the military ex-
penditure. The necessary steps would be to make a
complete disarmament of our native troops. He did not say
it would be necessary to remove all the small arms, because
that would be impossible, but we could insure that not a
single eenn should be cast in India, and from what
we had seen in the late mutiny, we knew that
without guns native troops were useless. He could
not say the Government would be able immediately to
reduce the military expenditure to the scale on which it
existed before the mutiny • but of this he felt certain that,
until the military expenditure could be reduced to a very
great extent, it would be impossible to establish the revenue
of India on a sound and solid basis.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH would not follow the
noble duke through all the topics through which he had
travelled if he did, he should occupy their lordships the
whole of the short period the session would last. He con-
fessed the expectations that had been held out both of reve-
nue and of reduction seemed to him alike over sanguine. He
did think it most hard upon the Indian government that it
should be compelled this year, of all others, to pay five mil-
lions towards the commercial speculations of gentlemen
who had projected railways ; and he hoped that in all future
guarantees the Government would be placed in the position
merely of a banker to receive the subscriptions of the share-
holders. Many years ago he had cautioned the public
against the danger that must arise from the system of guar-
antees ; and he prophesied whathad since turned out to be
the fact, namely, that if they guaranteed railways at 5 per
cent. it would be hopeless to expect that it could borrow at
a lower interest. No doubt the present financial state of
India was very lamentable ; but he cautioned the Govern-
ment against imposing new taxes ; it would be far better to
increase temporarily the old ones, to which the people were
accustomed. He thought the step of sending out Mr. Wil-
son as Chancellor of the Exchequer was an extremely wise
one. He had himself projected a similar arrangement 30
years ago ; and it was certainly most desirable that a states-
man should be substituted for a lawyer as a member of the
council. If Mr. Wilson or any other gentleman went out
in the proposed capacity he would not be able to do much
unless he had able assistants. He would have to educe order
out of chaos • for it was impossible to imagine anything
worse than the state of things that he (the noble earl) remem-
bered when he was in India. The new financial minister
would have to teach the officials not only habits of business
but of obedience, which would be a far more difficult task.
He (the noble earl) strongly deprecated the reduction of the
great civil salaries. Such a measure would bring about a
revolution of the worst kind ; for it would bring about a re-
volution in that class of men. At first, gentlemen, who went
to India generally incurred debts • and it was only to-
wards the end of their career that they could hope to
amass anything like a competence. To reduce their emolu-
ments would cause India to be governed, not, as now, by
young men, but by old ones. Hitherto it had been the
youth of our civil servants that had rendered our :'adminis-
tration of India so vigorous ; and the change would be a
most undesirable one. Besides, before their salaries were
raised to their present scale, there had been more than sus-
picions of the probity of our officials. The existing salaries,
therefore, meant youth, energy, and probity. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer in India might make great and im-
portant reductions in the native establishments connected
with the different departments. He (the noble earl) had
read with disgust the demands which had been made for
those establishments ; and he had no doubt that an ener-
getic Government might effect great reductions in that re-
spect. Many years ago he had called for a return which
showed that the native establishments connected with :cer-
tain departments were more numerous than the army. It
was absolutely necessary that the :military expenditure
should be reduced, and he could not understand why the
Government had not taken immediate steps for that pur-
pose. There must, however, be a diminution in the num-
ber of officers as well as of private soldiers, otherwise -their
efforts at economywould be vain ; but he believed that up
to the present time the*e had been no reduction in that re-
spect. It was absolutely necessary to have a great Euro-
pean force, and he felt certain that what was most politic
would be also the most economical. It was desirable that
they should create a balance between the local and the
Royal force, and between those two combined and the
native troops. He would begin by diminishing the native
force to the extent which it at present exceeded the Euro-
pean. That would give a reduction of from 90,000 to
95,000 men. He confessed he had been surprised to find
that at this moment we had in India, in addition to our
100,000 European soldiers, no fewer than 194,000 or
195,000 native troops, besides 80,000 police, making a
total native force of 265,000 men. He would not look
gloomily at the future of India. It was the noblest em-
pire that had ever been acquired by man—or, at least, it
might be mado so under proper management. It was to
the eternal honour of this country that in less than a hun-
dred years it had been won; and it was perhaps still more
to its honour that during the last two years it had bean
maintained. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Govern-
ment, discarding every consideration but the public in-
terest, would enable us long to retain it, and would confirm
it to the benefit of the people of India. (Cheers.)
Lord LYVEDEN complained that under the present
system there was a total want of responsibility for the ad-
ministration of India. Who could say, for example, who
had been to blame for the mismanagement which had caused
the insubordination which had lately taken place in the
European troops. Did the fault lie with Lord Clyde or
with Lord Canning, or with whom ? No one could tell.
He could not see why they should not make these Indian
loans an imperial question. By so doing they would save
millions, and he did not believe they would lose anything.
To that complexion must they come at last, and why not at
once, thereby saving the difference in the interest. He did
not believe that this country would ever be induced by any
consideration to abandon India ; and he therefore regretted
that the Government did not make up its mind at once to
guarantee.the loans. He (Lord Lyveden) could not agree
with the noble earl that it was impossible to effect any ma-
terial reduction in the civil salaries. He could not see any-
thing in the Indian service why it should require any
zreater scale of payment than that in the other colonies.
He could not see why gentlemen passing from Ceylon to
Mendes should be enabled to exchange comforts forluxuries.
The Indian service was the highest paid in the world. The
first salary was VOO or £5OO, whereas in the English civil
service it was not above £lOO. From the beginning it was
a competency, and in the end it was opulence. Ho did not
think that probity necessarily resulted from high salaries.
On the contrary, if high salaries led men into luxury of
living they might have exactly the contrary result.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH denied that there was any
luxury.
Lord LYVEDEN—That depended on what the noble earl
thought luxury ; but the Indian service was luxurious com-
pared with the colonial. He thought that there might be a
much larger number of uncovenanted servants. The reduc-
tion must begin at home. They should commence with that
gigantic job the Indian Council, which might be reduced to
six heads of departments The real reduction, however,
must no doubt be in the military expenditure. He had
been considerably astonished at the increase of native troops
during the mutiny, and he was glad to find that that force
was in the process of reduction. With a proper police they
might very greatly reduce the number of troops ' • and there
were ether ways in which they might diminish the duties
required from the troops. He could not understand for in-
stance why such large sums should be carried about in bul-
lion with a military guard. Why not establish a system of
branch banks? With regard to the intended mission of Mr.
Wilson to India, he had certainly never understood that he
was to be a Chancellor of the Exchequer. If that was the
case, he doubted the propriety of sending out such an offi-
cer. He only imagined that Mr. -Wilson was to take a
situation in the gallery, and to report to the Governor-
General. As a financial councillor his services might be of
very great use ; but they ought not to expect any very
speedy reduction. Mr. Wilson would have a great deal to
learn,. and he might experience considerable, opposition,
especially if he were charged with the invidious task of re-
ducing salaries. He (the noble lord) hoped, however, that
Mr. Wilson would be armed with sufficient authority, and
that he would be backed by the Government at home. He
could not think that taxes like the succession duties might
not be imposed, because the natives had been more used to
such imposts under their own princes than under our rule.
They had been told that it was impossible to increase the
land revenues; but the late governor of Madras had suc-
ceeded in doing that by the best of all modes—by reducing
the tax. He thought therefore that they might look to the
future of India more sanguinely than had lately been our
habit; but he hoped that in time to come we might not only
derive from our eastern possessions great glory but great
wealth. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH did not express any
opinion as to whether the reduction of the military expen-
diture might be immediately effected. He did think, how-
ever, that the native troops
The bill then the Europeans.
1.7.1 India might once be dimi-
nished to the number
RESERVE - Msed through committee.
VOLUNTEER FORCE OF SEAMEN

BILL. T'
ails bill, said that after the full discussions w
~ at buke of SOMERSET, in moving thehicoemh mhaditttaeekoenn
Place on the importance of a naval reserve force, he was sure
rese
that any
provision which could possibly add to the naval
rves of the country would meet with their lordships' ap-
probation. The present bill emanated from the report of a
commission, but only dealt with one of their several recom-
mendations, as it was thought that it would be inconvenient
to mix together different subjects in one bill. The bill was
confined to the one point of a naval reserve force, and in its
form somewhat resembled a measure previously brought in
relating to a naval coast reserue ; but in its intention it was
very different. The previous measure dealt with those
fishermen and others on the coast who were naturally un-
willing to be taken away from the country, and, therefore,
though they might be made available for manning gun-
, and other small craft, were not available when a'fleet
required to be manned. Consequently, it was thoughtdesir-
s s
able by the commission
believed that another force should be created,
and it was
pensionoffering
after seamen
some a
m yearsali um
ser_
wouldretaining
be willing to enrol themselves, go through
thatfee
andy a
a drill, and be ready on a sudden emergency to man the
fleet.— S 6 far AS BXperience went there were some grounds
for believing that this measure would be effectual for its

purpose, because th 6 Naval Coast Voltinteers had, been, en-
rolled to the number, he was told, of 6,000 or tit°, of whom
5,000 were well trained And as efficient as any other men in
the navy. Still, the necessity for a greater number led to
the introduction of the present bill, which proposed to give
Lo a year and the pay of seamen dining 28 days drill to such
as enrolled themselves, These sailors might go to any
part of the woritl they pleased, so long as it was
known where they were to be.found. There would be no
objection to their going to distant places, for if war broke
out sailors Would be wanted not only here but in other
pans of the world. The plan adopted in the bill was an
experiment, and, as such, powers were only taken in the
bill to make regulations. The excellence of the plan would
of course depend on these regulations, which would be made
by the Admiralty, communicating with the Board of Trade,
shipping masters, and persons best able to suggest what re-
gulations would be most likely to bring in the seamen in the
manner wanted. What was desired in the first instance
was that a beginning should be cautiously made. This was
no party question, for all persons were equally anxious that
some measure of this sort should succeed. It had been ex-
amined with great care by the commissioners, by whom it
was almost unanimously agreed to. Mr. Lindsay had drawn
up another and a valuable report, and to many of the sug-
gestions due attention would-be paid by the Admiralty. He
would add that the present measure by itself was not all
that was required for producing a good reserve. Another
important measure was the training of boys in training
schools, so that in a few years the,y would become good
sailors. That measure he thought would be wise, but it
would require great consideration, and it was thought bet-
ter not to mix the questions up together in the present bill.
When the plans which he had mentioned should be carried
out, he did not doubt but that we should have rendered im-
pressment unnecessary if it were still possible, and, moreover,
we should have a better body of -seamen than under any
system of impressment. As he had said, this plan was only
an experiment, but he had sanguine hopes of its success,
and no efforts would be wanting on the part of the Govern-
ment to render it effective in providing a sufficient reserve
of seamen.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH approved the measure,
and thought the country was indebted to the commissioners
for their valuable report. He had, however, one apprehen-
sion as to the working of the measure. If only men who
were engaged in the coasting trade or upon short voyages
were engaged there would be no difficulty; but if men who
engaged under the provisions of this measure were permit-
ted to sail upon long voyoges they would not be forthcom •
ing when wanted. He wished to know whether the act was
to be limited to sailors engaged upon the home coasts or
whether it would apply to all sailors.
The Duke of SOMERSET said the bill did not provide
either way upon that point, which would have to be dealt
with by the regulations. His own impression was that it
would be unwise to limit the distance to which sailors
should be allowed to go.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH suggested that at least
each sailor who went upon a long voyage should only d 3 so
upon condition of providing a substitute to appear for him
in case of need.
The bill then passed through committee.

The following bills were then passed through com-
mittee :—Government of India Act Amendment, In-
closure Act Amendment, Stock in Trade Exemp-
tion, Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Contirivance, Corrupt Prac-
tices Prevention Act Continuance, Poor-law Boards (Pay-
ment of Debts), Charitable and "Provident Societies, Weights
and ➢Teasures Act Amendment, Turnpike Acts Continu-
ance, and Dublin Police.