The Sun.
London, England, 1835-02-25 00:00:00

of the nation—not for the injury of the majority, but for the benefit
of the whole. The choice to the Monarch could not be one of
gain or loss to him—it was not his own concern, it was a
sacred trust, and in the exercise of that trust the King was
himself a public servant, performing therein the highest of all
his duties, one which, above all others, he should not deal
with capriciously. An adviser of the King might tell him
" You have an undoubted prerogative to change or to choose your
servants"—and that to a certain extent was true; "your Majesty
had much better have duke such a one than the earl who now
serves you, or this marquis than that baron ;" but that indulgence
of private whims and individual fancies was not constitutional, it
was not the tenure according to which his Majesty held his high
office. So long as the prerogative under consideration was exer-
cised for the good of the community, it could be safely held and
efficiently wielded ; but the parties who advised the dismissal of an
Administration upon no public or statable grounds, incurred a most
serious responsibility. No sovereign of this country had a right to
dismiss his Ministers unless upon public grounds, and, as he before
showed, those who assumed office after any dismissal, were respon •
sible for advising such dismissal, and no man had any right what-
ever to advise the exercise of that highest of the royal functions un-
less he could openly state and defend the grounds upon which that
advice was given. In what way had the prerogative been exercised
on the present occasion ? It had been exercised when Parliament
was not sitting. In what manner had the prerogative been exer-
cised on former occasions? Since the Revolution:there were, he
believed, but two instances of the Ministry being changed while
Parliament was not sitting—both were in the reign of the late
King. In the year 1765 there was a dismissal of Ministers in con-
sequence of a quarrel with Mr. George Grenville. One of
the dismissals was that of the Rockingham Administration,
I, and in both of those there was as much of the - exercise of
that kingcraft, which George the Third began early and
practised late.—(Hear, hear. In the case of Lord Chatham
the public were most anxious to obtain the benefit of his services.
It might be true that there were those who thought that that cele-
brated man might be paralleled in the present day, though for his
part he knew not by whom. Be that, however, as it might, Lord
Chatham took an earldom and left the House of Commons, which
no one ever did voluntarily, and thereupon he lost all his power i
the great Prime Minister was turned out, the King was advised to
take advantage of his want of weight ; then came that well known
Administration which Burke had described us " a piece of tesse-
lated pavement, with here a bit of black, and there a patch of
white." If it be necessary to dismiss an Administration, and he
would not go the length of saying but that such an occasion might
arise, Parliament ought to be called together immediately. Now,
he would call
•upon hit opponents, unless in the times of the Tudors
or the Stuarts, to give a single instance in which there had been any
Ministerial changes, otherwise than on assignable, constitutional
and public grounds. If Ministers resigned, it was a sufficient cause.
If they were torn amongst themselves by endless dissentions, if
they differed from the Sovereign, if they differed from the country
at large, if their measures were evidently ruinous, if dishonour
abroad and disaffection at home marked the whole tenour of their
government, any of these might be constitutional grounds of dis-
missal, and above all, if there happened to be a general feeling and
a strong feeling of distrust and disapprobation throughout
the country, it would form a sufficient ground.—(Hear, hear.)
Those then which he enumerated were the only causes, and
yet not a shadow of reason founded upon these was attempted to
be given. He would ask any Noble Lord with the utmost confidence
whether any one of those reasons applied in the present instance in
the slightest possible degree ; the King's speech answered the
question, both as to measures and otherwise, whether connected
with the administration of affairs at home or abroad, in respect of
measures ecclesiatical or municipal. There was no disagreement
among the Ministers themselves. Since the change which took
place in the month of June last, when the Government of the Noble
Viscount (Melbourne) was formed, never did any shadow of dif-
ference of opinion even as to matter of detail—never did any one
difference as to any one line of policy—never did any one hesitation
in one person respecting the opinions formed by another, once ob-
tain, from the time when the Government was first formed till rthe
day when it went down.—(Hear, hear.) There was no difference
with the Sovereign—no occasion was given—no dissension took
place—in short, there was not one of those reasons, nor any part or
parcel of any one of those reasons, in existence to justify the disso-
lution of the late Administration. He had stated that George 111.
was an experienced Sovereign in changing and making new admi-
nistrations, and the experience which had been little comparatively
in 1766, and which being so confined, led him to commit some
errors, forty years afterwards in 1806, with the lesson of the Ame-
rican war and its necessary consequences, adopted a different course
being then advised by the friends of the present Cabinet, by a Noble
and Learned Lord, by the late Lord Liverpool, the late Lord Lon-
donderry, then Lord Castlereagh, by Mr. Perceval, Mr. Canning,
and by all those gentlemen who succeeded the administration which
was then turned out. What took place on that memorable oc-
casion put the stamp of authority on what he had stated, and
vindicated the opinion he had expressed of the limits within which
the King's prerogative should be exercised of dismissing his Mi-
nisters. What was the course pursued by George 111. ? There
never was a greater desire entertained, either at Court, or by a
party, the Conservative party, then called Tories, to get rid of the
Government of Lord Howick, after the death of Mr. Fox, well
knowing, no doubt, the importance of that extraordinary man to
that Administration. But how differently were things done then
by wiser men and in better times ! The Whig Administration had
then no favour at Court, the King's favour they had certainly not
enjoyed since the coalition in 1784, nor had they the favour of the
Tories. Well, Mr. Fox died September 13, 1806, there being
ample notice of his approaching end for at least two months before,
in consequence of the unhappy experiment he was obliged to un-
dergo. There was no hurry, neither public nor secret advisers,
nor illustrious Dukes taken by snrprise.—(A laugh.) Did his
Majesty then on the 14th of September, on the death of Mr. Fox,
act as his present Majesty OR the 14th of November last, was ads
vised to do on the death of Earl Spencer ? Did those great states-
men who counselled George 111., experienced, sage, eminent, and
discreet men as they were, ever think of advising him, because
Mr. Fox was dead, instantly to turn out the Whig Administration?
No such thing; no such advice was given: they were allowed to
remain in office till the end of March following, not from any want
of inclination to turn them out—on the contraey there was every
inclination steadily, unremittingly, uninterruptedly manifested,
to employ any opportunity that could be taken advan-
tage of to dismiss them • but they were . allo;ved to re-
_ snAl_irmt race six lolneire,. hecwanise the
thOUt at aonstituttlone
cause. Nay, the King even allowed them to dissolve the Pa..:..-
ment after the death of Ms Fox,' although he very plainly nne
have foreseen that a second ctab5...1....ti,,n would. ,non occur.
however, was not the course which his present Msjeet.,
to pursue, clearly because it was thought that an opportunity ex
isted, in the loss of Lord Althorp, for turning them out, although
no charge whatever had been urged against them, no difference of
opinion upon any question existing among themselves, and still
being prepared satisfactorily to go on in conducting the Govern-
ment of the country. He now came to another part of the pro-
ceedings—the dissolution of Parliament which followed. And here
he could not but observe a gross, glaring, and almost incredible in-
consistency in the argument of the Noble Duke—he protested if he
*had not heard it with his own ears he could not have believed it.
The Ministers were turned out because Lord Althorp was taken
from the House of Commons. That was the argument. After
Lord Althorp, who so deservedly and so eminently possessed the
confidence of the House of Commons, left the lower House of Par-
liament, what reason, argued the Duke, had the Noble Lord (Mel-
bourne) to believe that the House of Commons would continue
their confidence under another leader? The Noble Lord's Admi-
nistration was therefore dissolved, because the Commons would no
longer confide in them, crippled by the loss of Lord Althorp. The
Duke turned out Ministers because the loss of Lord Althorp pre-
vented the Commons from following them any longer. But, then,
unfortunately, the next thing he did was, to turn out the House
of Commons for confiding toe much.—(Hear, hear.) Ministers
were turned out because, losing Lord Althorp, the House of
Commons would not follow them, and then the House of. Commons
was turned out because it would follow them too much, although
Lord Althorp had left it. They might disguise it as they liked—
they might wrap it up in boisterous assertion—they might cover it
over with flimsy pretext in the well-turned periods of an address,
or a mover and seconder's speech, or summon up a cloud of smoke
in order to conceal it from their vision, but it was not difficult to
pierce through, and to blow all that away with one breath. The
plain truth was, they all knew there was but one reason for getting
rid of the late House of Commons ; and what was that reason ?
that it did not confide enough in the late Ministers ?—that they lost
its confidence, having lost Lord Althorp ? No, no ; but that the
late Ministers were still the favourites of that House, were still
confided in, though deprived of the inestimable services of Lord
Althorp, and that the new Ministers durst not allow that House to
meet, knowing as well as he knew that their first vote would have
been, not that they could not trust the late Ministers because of
the loss of Lord Althorp, but that, although they regretted that
event, confide in the late Ministers they would. That was the rea-
son, and the only reason, for the dissolution of the Parliament.
Men ought always to be consistent in their pretences ; but,
unfortunately, those who used the ratio suasoria and the
ratio justifica were not always successful ; the one was some-
times found to be utterly irreconcileable with the other. It might
have been urged that Lord Althorp's loss in the House of Com-
mons caused the dissolution of the Ministry ; on that ground
the Duke might have rested his foot, and not, perhaps,
been very easily remoVed_i but when he followed that up by
dissolving the House of Commons, by turning them out after
having assigned such a reason for turning away the Ministers, there
was an end of all reasoning; nothing remained but pretext which
could not for one moment deceive any man of sound, sober, and lo-
gical understandiug. He now came in the course of time and ar-
gument to the Ministers who had succeeded the Noble Viscount's
(Melbourne's) administration, and the grounds on which the Noble
Duke expected the confidence of Parliament. As to the dissolution,
the Noble Duke agreed with the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) in
maintaining that it was to be justified by the event. The Noble
Duke said he expected the confidence of the House of Commons,
and seemed to think his Noble Friend (Melbourne) a very unrea-
eonable man, because, on the first night of the session, he de-
manded a test of success before it could well be known whe-
ther they could succeed or not. Why, if nothing had occurred
in the last few days—if, in place of what had happened, the
house had shown itself ready, even before the chair was
filled, to evince its confidence in the Duke, there might
appear something in the argument, and it might have
appeared unreasonable to call for the evidence of success be-
fore such a test could with propriety be applied ; but that
test had been applied, and, in the surest manner of any
that had ever been placed on, record. He never yet heard,
since the revolution in 1688, of any one instance where a
minister was defeated on the first day of a new Parliament—after
recurring, as the King's speech had it, to the sense of the peo-
ple, which certainly was not to be gathered from the hustings, but
from the voice of the people's representatives in Parliament, as-
sembled but for the late fire on the very spot out of which the late
representatives were thrust by the proclamation—on the very day
of the return of the writ, the first instance of the kind on record,
those representatives left Ministers in a minority on the question
of who should be Speaker of the House.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Such was the ground on which was to be raised the fabric of trust
in the confiding spirit of the New House of Commons. Some men
were constitutionally more sanguine than others, but, judging by
all past experience of reasoning on probabilities, a more doubtful
case for future confidence he never heard of. But there was another
ground on which confidence was claimed. It seemed that the ex-
Tories, the Conservatives as they were now called, had all of a sud-
den become reformers alses end they were told by the seconder of
the address, if they (the old Refoorkers) wished to be consistent, if
they really wished for reform, they shes 44 give credit, confidence,
and support to the present Government, wig? are quite as
pod Reformers :thline when ?—(Heir, hear.)
Was it situ„ the testing of the writ? or since the return of the
since the vote on the --•
Win.:eilley ecsi.9ctiSoinnl
r peradventure
writ? when thq-
reforming spirit come on these gentlemen, vel!onefrh9
question or .1..
:. Qneaker . P. 4 did this new
- mere now for re-
forms Cf corPOrgtions in law, in the church, in the state, :: the
tithe, in the Marriage Act, who were now for making marriage a
civil contract, and abolishing all laws for Dissenters and for every
body else—the very men who a few months ago would not listen
to any thing of the sort—(hear, hear)—who told those who pro-
posed such things they were pulling down the church about 1 the
' •
ears—who inveighed against them as revolutionary—who chal-
lenged them as rebellious---who declared that they had either fools'

Sue]
was advise

heads on their snoulders or traitors' hearts in their breasts—when
and whence had those marvellous, those miraculous conversions
taken place ? He hoped his experience of men had not made him
distrustful of their honesty and good faith—he hoped that having
lived so long in the world, as unfortunately he had, the consequence
was not that he entertained a worse opinion of the character, prin-
ciples, and common honesty of his fellow-creatures than he ought ;
but he could not help saying, and it was the result not more, per-
haps, of reason and experience, than of a sort of instinct, which,
after all, characterised our common nature, an all but invincible
instinct to mistrust all sudden, unaccountable, miraculous conver..
sions.—( Hear, hear.) That a man should at once, from the
enemy of reform—from the drearier of change—from the vitupe-
rator of all innovations—from him who confounded with revolution,
with anarchy, with political insanity, if not depravity, any one
that would dare to touch one of the outworks of any of the vene-
rable institutions of the country in church or state—that such a
man as this who had signalised those opinions by years of uninter-
rupted, unabated, pertinacious hostility to every species of reform,
and regarded it as synonymous with destruction—that such a
man, whose conduct had recorded all that in the eyes of the
world, whose speeches had sounded it forth in their ears, session
after session, whose protests had enrolled it and stigmatized it in
the boldest language on their Lordship's journals—(Hear, hear. )
that that very man should all at once, on the 14th of Noveraber,
1834—without any event having happened—without any change of
public affairs—without any but 24 hours' experience added to his
former stock—without any time for reflection, neque spatium lo-
cumee dolori, to mourn over former opinions, to balance conflict.
ing emotions—no time but between the opening of the King's let-
ter, reading it, and getting into his carriage to go to Brighton—
that such a man should have so decided and operative a change pro-
duced on him all at once, in so short an interval, appeared certainly
to him (Lord Brougham) talking moderately, one of the most un-
accountable phenomena in humam nature, which he had "ever yet,
either as a statesman, a philosopher, or a man of the world, been
called on to contemplate. But then the argument still was, " onl"y
trust them, for only see what had been done in former times.
This was not the first time that argument had been used.—( Hear. )
This was the Noble Duke's second conversion, and in 1828 nobody
inveighed so eloquently and so pathetically as the Noble and
Learned Baron on the woolsack (Lyndhurst) against the Catholic
Emancipation Bill. On that occasion he had, to be sure, altoge-
ther begged the question, as the Noble Duke did on the presentoc-
casion ; but the Noble Duke did so in a sturdy manner,—(A
laugh)—having laid it down as an indubitable proposition, that
the late Ministers•could not do without Lord Althorp ; he declared
• all that was perfectly well known, and therefore Ministers must be
turned out.—(A laugh.) But the Noble and Learned Baron was a
beggar of another sort,—(Laughter)—a more rhetorical, more
dexterous, and therefore less faithful beggar.—(Continued
laughter.)

." ridentem dicere verum
" Quid vetat ?"
When pushed to ascertain extent, when exposed in its naked de-
formity, nothing was so ridiculous as dishonesty and inconsistency.
The Noble and Learned Baron, then, had given them an example
of the nimbleness with which he was capable of being converted.
A Right Hon, Baronet, the nominal head at least of the pre-
sent Administration, just as the Noble Duke was the real one,
was very well known, in connection with the Emancipation ques-
tion,' as were Mr. Goulburn, and Several others, the stedfast
and fhrmidable enemies of the measure ; and such was the pre-
cedent on which they were now told to rely,—the former con-
duct of the Noble Duke, to which his injudicious supporters
appealed, when in the face of the country and the people's Re-
presentatives they challenged the confidence of the British na-
tion—" Don't doubt that they will reform. True, that nq set
of men ever pledged themselves so stoutly against it—true, that
no men ever committed themselves so deeply against all change—
true, that ever since entering on public life no men ever thwarted
so much all measures of amelioration and improvement, except
when beaten, or placed in minorities of one in the other HoUse of
Parliamont ; but never mind, don't doubt them, they are capable of
doing again what they did before, by abandoning all their former
supporters, changing all their former principles, and becoming con-
verts in !4 hours to contrary opinions !" That was the argument on
the other side. Now there was, undoubtedly, something in this ;it
went a great way to settlewhatdegree of contidencesuch men should
have. But he thought that the people to whom they should appeal
for confidence should be those who had tried them—they should
appeal to a Noble Baron above (Lord Roden as we understood),
who did not change his opinions although he was deserted by his
political friends—or to an illustrious Duke (Cumberland). They
had tried them—they knew what they were made of—they had
formed an estimate of their trustworthiness from what they remem-
bered of their former conduct, and to those he should refer them.
He was not to be taken in by any such pretensions. No one re-
joiced more heartily than he did in the conversion of those noble
and right hon. persons to the opinions he had always entertained in
favour of Catholic emancipation. But he freely confessed—and he
was bound now to state a qualification of his former opinions—he
freely confessed that he was a dupe on that occasion.—(Hear,
hear.' Not on the Catholic question, on which his opinions never
varied—not on the excellonce of that measure, though unhappily
too long delayed to produce its full effect--(Hear, hear)—but he
was bound to retract the assent he then justly and fairly gave to the
defence urged by, those noble and right hon. persons who had
brought it forward for the sudden and (as their adversaries said)
unaccountable change of opinion. They said that they had become
convinced that emancipation was necessary in order to save the
state. He had never doubted that, but they declared they had at
length arrived at a knowledge of its truth ; and they added, that no
persons could carry the measure except themselves ; and that they
retained office in order to carry it into effect. Not that they had
changed their opinions to keep their places ; but that in their pla-
ces, they changing their policy could, and alone could, carry that mea-
sure which at the eleventh hour they had discovered to be necessary
to the safety of the State. He listened candidly, and not only
candidly, but cheerfullt, to that excuse. Anxious for the success
of the measure, he did all he could to further it, and in fact he did
more than he could fairly be called on to do, as a party man, upon
that occasion. No doubt it was said that Whig leaders were always
factious, and looked only to the turning out of a rival party ; but
he would be bold enough to make this statement, which he had
never made before, that he and the late Mr. Huskisson, at 5 o'clock
on a Thursday evening, a very remarkable day in the recollection
of some present, when they had been dismissed from his Majesty's
service on account of the Catholic question, having heard the state-
ment iof what was going on at Windsor purposely communicated to
them ov a ',id. Mr. Huskisson, that disinterestedness and
honest love teinn iked -steady devotit., that wince
he thought it his duty. -4ivirtics- place, be (Lord
Brougham) acting in concert with him, and tcok occasion to avow
to Parliament, for the purpose of its being known elsewhere. and
preventing the dismissal then contemplated, that rla power on eo.rii,
could induce either of them to take office, or be accessory to any
arrangement for succeeding those who were about to be expelled
on account of the Catholic Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He had already
declared that the individual who took an office from which another
Minister had been removed, in law and in fact rendered him-
self responsible for his dismissal, and on that principle he acted ;
he refused to take office, and announced that office would be offered
to him in vain, because he knew that no man could then be acces-
sory to any new ministerial arrangement without incurring the
greatest of all possible evils. He knew that office would have been
offered, not for the purpose of rendering them odious in the eyes
of men, as in the case of a similar most disgraceful of all offers re-
specting the Princess of Wales, that by coming into office they
should engage to give up the principle of the. Catholic Question,
but as the means of holding out a threat upon the then Ministers.
He had no doubt but that Noble Lords and Right Hon. Gentlemen
did as they said—merely kept their places to carry a measure which
was necessary for the safety of the empire, and which they felt
they alone could carry. Nevertheless their conduct was covered
with equivocal circumstances. It was always Anispicious when
people change their principles and gain something, although cer-
tainly it might be a proof in some cases of magnanimity and ho-
nest devotion to the public well-being. But that was a case which
should only occur once in a Statesman's life. A man might once
get himself into that false position—he might once expose himself
with impunity to such a load of suspicion ; but he must beware of
trying such an experiment a second time, for assuredly no weight
of reputation, no amount of public service, would ever enable a
man with impunity to play the same game twice.--( Hear.) At
all events the circumstances , now were materially changed ; and if
the Noble Duke thought he could alone carry the Emanci-
pation Bill before by remaining in office, assuredly he was not the
only one who, in the opinion of the county, was competent now to
carry into operation the principles of Reform.—( Hear.) What
had they done since they came into Office ? the Noble Lord would
ask. Ihey (the Opposition) were desired to give them a trial.
A trial ! Why, had they not been tried all their lives? They had
been in one constant course of trial ; and all the trials they had had
had only produced a constant train of convictions. They had not.
only been found wanting in reform, but the very bitterest oppo-
nents of it. Why was the political world to be in a worse situa-
tion than an individual with respect to servants ? A servant came
to an individual and desired to be employed ; he met with a re-
fUsal ; he desired to have a trial ; he was told he had had a trial
before—there had been very suspicious circumstances in his
accounts--the mistakes had all been on one side, and al-
though he (the servant) stated that nobody could do what
was required but himself, yet after no less than twelve years'
trial, he had been invariably found wanting. Just so it was
with those who now supplicated for trial. It was, therefore,
quite a joke to ask for further trial. He (Lord Brougham)
would now inquire what their conduct had been ? They
were going to reform ; they were going to turn over a new
leaf ; they had become converted, and were going to reform
everything in church and state. If that were so—if they were true
and honest Reformers, why did they turn off the Reformed Parlia-
ment ?—(Cheers.) The Reformed Parliament was ready made to
their hand—it was in its youth—it had not been enervated by any
improper excesses; it had not been sapped by intrigue or injured
by old age ; and notwithstanding all that, the very first act which
they did was to turn off that Reformed Parliament--and why ?
Why, because they were Reformers, and because they wished to
give Reform to the people ! In truth, they did not exactly say so,
but that was the gloss which lie (Lord Brougham) put upon it.
The real fact was, that they had dissolved that Parliament because
it was a Reformed Parliament, and becanse they wanted another
What was the conduct of the present Government at the election
which had just taken place ? Wherever a gentleman appeared on
the hustings to support violent Reform measures, he (Lord B. )
could very well understand the Noble Duke when he said, " Don't
let the Government give him their support," for although the
Government was composed of Reformers, yet it was of mode-
rate Reformers ; but when a moderate Reformer and an Anti-
Reformer appeared on the hustings, he (the Noble Lord) would
only ask the House, which of those men Government had sup-
ported ? Nay, they actually bragged that they had got ninety
or ninety-five Anti-Reformers into the present Parliament..
Was that a specimen of their new-born zeal—was that a retracting
of their steps ? Alas ! he feared that all that had been
heard of their preceding conduct, and their sudden change, would
vanish into nothing when put in contrast with the first act of the
Administration in dissolving the Reformed Parliament, and in their
second, in opposing every reform candidate who had appeared on
the hustings. Nevertheless, Parliament had been dissolved, and he
entirely agreed with his Noble Friend lately at the head of the Go-
vernment, that anything louder than the solemn warning that had
been given at the hustings, and even since, could not be given to
the present Miuisters, against rash and daring proceedings. No
man, except in one or two instances, had ventured to come to the
hustings except under the colours of Reform ; and that exception
was, or those exceptions were, in some county where influence pre-
vailed, or in some borough where corruption existed that required to
be reformed. He should be glad to see what Government would
do in that respect ; he would anxiously watch it, desirous of seeing
whether or not it would disfranchise those boroughs from which
it gained its members. Some exceptions, too, there were, and
he trusted for the character of English gentlemen those were few,
in which gentlemen came forward professing principles on which
they did nqt iptorkd tp He had heard of one or two who
on the hustings professed strong F-efigrE4 priPciPle§. Pe had
heard of one or two who were aspect by their ethistitgePes
....,timents were with respect to txhieinisp
present
had succeeded
two who, outbidding their opponents
had so

.xeeptions, but still one exception went to prove the rule, and the
general rule had been, that the Reformer alone had been chosen at
at a popular election. Upon the whole, therefore, his ( Lord
Brougham's) expectation from the present Government of anything
like reform was confined and limited; and although Government
expected some support from the present Parliament, the statement
of that expectation was accompanied with very plain indications,
that if they did not receive it they would have recourse to the desperate
expedient of a second and immediate dissolution. Although there
had been a sort of clamour raised a short time ago, when his Noble
Friend had mentioned his understanding to that effect, that it
would not be, yet the Noble Duke had, when on his legs, taken
no opportunity of denying it. His (Lord Brougham's) expecta-
tion therefore was, that some such rash attempt as that would be
resorted to, which he would fairly say would be an attempt upon
the Constitution of the country, a direct attack ,on that Constitu-
tion, and an inroad on the best and only security of the Throne
itself. That was far from being a chimerical notion ; and would
nothing be done against the Reform Bill? When he recollected the
language in which that measure was received—when he knew that
in one House of Parliament the present Ministers and their
friends stated that measure to be, in distinct terms, one that was
calculated to create the worst despotism that ever existed in any part
of the world—a measure to fill the House of Commons with mob
demagogues, to the exclusion of all wise and prudent men—a
measure which involved, the confiscation of the funds, the destruc-
tion of tithes, the abolition of nobility, and which went to tear the
crown from the Sovereign's head—when in one House it was so
described, and when in the other it was, perhaps not in such lan-
guage, but in language similar, described in a protest on the jour-
nals of that House as inconsistent with the safety of the Monarchy
and the best institutions of the country—as fatal to them all ;
when these were the opinions, and when that was the language
of the present Ministers regarding the Reform Bill, was he en-
tertaining a vague, a groundless, a chimerical, a fantastic appre-
hension, when he believed that that Bill would not be safe in
their keeping? He did not think they would be doing justice to
their own consciences if they did not do something to thwart the
working of that Bill. He would put himself in a parallel case :
supposing, contrary to all his strongest opinions, deeply rooted
principles, and powerful feelings, politically and as an individual,
that a clamour arose in the country, massacres having taken place
in the West India Islands, that this country had become overwhelm-
ingly depressed in consequence of the state of the. West India mar-
kets,
and a great re-action, as it was called, had taken place on the
subject of slavery, which might be deemed by some a sufficient
reason for bringing in a bill to abolish the great measure of ne-
gro emancipation, and which being done; there would be no lan-
guage that he could use that he would fail to employ in depre-
cating such a step, or in raising the country and the Government
against it; nor would he fail to enter his strongest protest against
it; but supposing it was carried by a majority of 44, the majority
on the Test and Corporation Acts, would he be the person who
who would come down next day, and say that he would carry that
Act into operation ? No, his should not be the unholy hand that
would assist in any way in abolishing such an act of mercy and
sound policy; and ,admitting that the repeal had passed, he might
_be reduced to despair, but still he would live in some hope of being
able to undo the act ; and supposing him to have come into office
again, he should feel himself bound in sound policy, in honest sen-
timent, to labour night and day in undoing that act which he had
striven against from beginning to end. When, then, he felt that
he would be bound to act in that way, could he suppose the Noble
Lords opposite would or could do otherwise in regard to the Re-
form Bill ? He was only giving them credit for acting with the
same integrity that he himself would act in such circumstances.
For that reason, he was confident the Noble Lords opposite would
conduct their proceedings against the security of the Reform Bill.
Let them, then, by dissolving Parliament, wear out the people by
election after election, if they durst. Let them try it ; and if they
but got a majority at any election, let the people of the country be
well assured that the first act of a Conservative majority in
Parliament, in whatever way obtained, would be to re-enact
a part at least of the system of rotten boroughs.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) To be sure, he should be told that the' Noble. Duke
and the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the Govern-
ment had said the Reform Bill was now a part of the Consti-
tution. That might be very true, but then came this melancholy
situation—that the same Right Hon. Gentleman used to represent
the Protestant Establishment as being part of the constitution and
laws of the country in the same way ; he used to say the same
thing of the rotten borough system—the same of the Catholic dis-
abilities, and yet he brought in a Bill for Catholic Emancipation.
Who then would wonder, if a Conservative majority was obtained,
that they should say the whole of the people were against the Re-
form Bill, and that away it should go ? What would become of
the opinion then that it was part of the Constitution ? That was
the misery of having opinions of a thing being a part of the Con-
stitution. Why, they took it up and laid it down just as a man
would a cloak, using it only for a particular purpose—here to-day
and gone to-morrow ; so that what was parcel of the Constitution
to-day was no longer so in 24 hours hence. They considered that
they had aright to be Reformers, anti-Reformers, or Orangemen,
just as they thought the country required. The people of this
country, however, had one security ; and he would say unto them,
never be taken in by the professions of untried men ; let them
always adhere to those who had been their friends, their supporters,
and fought the battles of the Constitution with them. Let them
adhere to those who had been the friends of the policy which the
people had adopted for their own ; let them never more think that
either the Reform Bill itself or the continuance of that Constitu-
tion which it had given, and with which it had blessed the country,
or that any other Reforms to which it might lead, could ever be
safe in the promises and hands of those who had from the moment
cf its agitation unflinchingly opposed it. Never let them trust
those who had before gone from their pledges ; but above
all, he would say let them trust their tried Reformers, and stick by
their Reformer', in whom they had a right as rational and prudent
men to confide. What might be the issue of the conflict into
which the Noble Duke had thought fit voluntarily to enter, what
might be the issue as regarded the two branches of the Legislature,
was not for him to say. Of one thing he was morally certain, that
if any desperate attempt should be made to overawe the people of
this country by mere force and power, or to wear them out by re-
peated appeals to their sense as it was called, but which would be-
come appeals of a very different nature if persisted in—(Hear,
hear)—if any attempt should be made to set at nought the sense of
the country, after the appeal had been made of a highly unneces-
sary, unconstitutional—ay, the Noble and Learned Lord would say,
of an impeachable kind—(llear, hear)—in the circumstances in
I ' that :.-kpeal was made; and instead of carrying on the Go-
vernment as the wisest and ablest, and the most honest—ay, and
the trust firm-minded of former statesmen were always contented
to carry it on—he meant in deference to the sense of the, people,
aril in c, liance with that sense, as declared legally, regularly'
and constitutionally by their representatives in Parliament as-
sembled; then woe be unto them, whomsoever they might be,
who should attempt to govern against and in spite of the
House of Commons, and to set up the House of Lords as go-
verning the nation, for it would come to that--(Cries of
" Hear, hear")—thereby to present to the people of England
the government of an Aristocracy, which it then would'purely be,
and which of all forms of Government that ever cursed mankind,
as uniformly admitted, would be the one most to be execrated,
without being the most respectable. The Noble and Learned
Lord felt bound to state his apprehensions as to this. He belieeled
the intention to be that of insisting upon neglecting, if not of run-
ning counter to the sense of the people. Things were regarded as
frivolous, indications were set at nought, merely because they came
from the other House of Pailiament. They were told that majori-
ties in the House of Lords were to be considered as well as majori-
ties in the House of Commons ; and the want of confidence of one
of the houses, the distrust of the House of Commons, the
sense of the dissolution of the House of Commons, were all to be
set aside, utterly disregarded, because in the Lords there was an
overwleelming, an overpowering majority in favour of his Majesty's
proceeding. That was not a wise decision—not a judicious course.
If anything could.make the House of Lords more hated than an-
other, it would be, which he hoped and trusted, for the sake of the
country, would not take place—that of retreating back on the sense
of the House of Lords, and despising the approbation of the House
of Commons.—(Cheers. )
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he rose, not for the puiiose
of answering all the details which the Noble and Learned Lord had
entered into, and still less of taking notice of the threats he had so
plentifully dealt in.—(Hear.) But as he had,made a charge against
him (the Lord Chancellor) which was utterly without foundation,
he rose for the purpose of meeting- that charge, and for the purpose
of defying the Noble and Learned Lord to a proof of his statement .
He (the Lord Chancellor) asserted most positively that the Noble
and Learned Lord had maligned him in the statement he had made.
It was true that he had on a former occasion opposed the Roman
Catholic Bill ; it was true that at a subsequent period. he supported
that measure to the utmost of his power. The grounds upon which
he had adopted those different courses he had upon former occasions
stated;_ they were matters of history, and he would not now enter
into them. But the Noble Lord (continued the Lord Chancellor)
has dared to say that I pursued the course I took for the purpose of
retaining my possession of office. I deny peremptorily the state-
ment of the Noble and Learned Lord. I say, if I may make use of the
expression, he has uttered an untruth in,so expressing himself.—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear." " Order, order," and much confu-
sion.) My colleagues at that time, some of whom are now in the
House, know that we were at the time when that measure was
brought in firm in our possession of the Government. My friends
who are present know the accuracy of my statement, which is this,
—that we were satisfied the tranquillity of Ireland could not be pre-
served unless-we adopted that measure and changed our policy--
(Cries of " Hear, hear, hear")—and so far from that measure
having been brought forward and supported by us with a
view to preserve our places, it must be well known that we
hazarded our places by pursuing that course, and that we actually
resigned our offices in consequence of the course that was then
taken.—( Cheers. ) What right, then, has the Noble and Learned
Lord, in his fluent, and I may say flippant manner to attack me as
he has dared to do ?—(" Hear, hear," and much cheering.) But
I pass this subject over. The Noble and Learned Lord has mis-
represented, as I understood, the Noble Duke. The Noble Duke
said, he did consider himself responsible for the dismissal of the
late Ministers ; and the particular statement into which the Noble
Duke entered was for the purpose of satisfying your Lordships,
and for the purpose of satisfying the country, that he knew nothing
of the fact of the dismissal until after it had taken place—(Hear,
hear)—but that having acted. afterwards in the way in which he
did, by the law and the Constitution of the country he considered
himself responsible for the act.—(Cheers.) That was a misrepre-
sentation of the Noble and Learned Lord. His quickness and his
sagacity must have caused him to understand the Noble Duke, and
canascribe what he stated only to an intention to pervert the
Noble Duke's statement.—(" Hear, hear," " Order, order," and
great confusion. )
Lord BROUGHAM rose, and said, as soon as silence was ob-
tlaeienrded—thalt hewill just use the same language to the Noble and Learned
uses to me, if he chooses to make this all arena of
indecency. When he says that I perverted what the Noble Duke
said, I can only say that he has misstated every word that I have
used from beginning to end, and that he has no right to say I in,
tended to pervert.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said—Perhaps I had no right in
strictness to say that the Noble and Learned Lord intended to per-
vert, but I have stated my reasons for the conclusion to which I
came; those grounds were satisfactory to my mind, and the Noble
Lord has not denied the correctness of my statement.
Lord BROUGHAM—Every word of it is incorrect.
The LORD CHANCELLOR--With respect, then, to the dis.
missal of the late Ministers, allow me to recall to your Lordship?
recollections the circumstances under which that took place ; and
I am ,quite sure your Lordships will feel that if we had actually
been the advisers of that measure, as we really were not, the course
that was pursued was the correct and proper 0ne,....( Hew., hear.)
The Noble Duke has directed your attention to the circumstances
that took place at the time of the secession of four of the most
he doubted whether at that particular moment he
Government, and' in your I;Ordsliips'. hearing
par-
ticular and leading members of the late Government at that period,
a The ergent solicitation of his • colleageee
and the Noble Earl at the head of it. The Noble Earl was desirous
"That was the first breieb rpede in the G
to use the e L 4 e niAuggespe.t Ait.Ahfartepe7eaetidsied(cfoonrtivie
iftr
cof}
Ileaatnrce) down to the goit4o
dcoeof4tirtlardeinsodictifirrectinvyi,ngoiiano; he
NoNbolebleete and e
theneCi
• ;n which he was placed, and said that he
time;nvCure Pd
n theetPh t e

their
he had beard of one
in strenuous opposition to the nev. _
against their opponents in getting returned, because tut, .._
outbid them ; and yet those gentlemen had, in opposition to their the circumstax“.....,
professions, and in violation and breach of their pledges, suddenly considered the position of Lord Althorp in tue nouse of ,om;
turned round to the support 0 the present Ministers. Those were mons as - essential to the continuance of the Government. H

was sure., it .would ,be found, when their principles and, inr-^''',Te_°
•.c ere more fully (levP.ored. that. i!,ey mere piirsumg a eon L 0"
was worthy the sanction of the c,onntry,—( Cheers.) He was sure.,
that the House of Commons would follow a course consonant with
the liberal feeling of the country, and those principles which were
founded in justice.—( Cheers. )
Lord BROUGHAM—The Noble and Learned Lord has thought
proper to charge me, if he might use the expression,
though it was an odd way of using it, with uttering an tethinret:Ftihir:
The Noble Lord must know the difference between an , ,
opinion and a mis-statement of a fact ; and this is the firesft t,i,in
cler..,
ever heard of any but a wrangling clown—( Loud cries
der")—l repeat, none but a wrangling clown would c:mfuse the
difference between an erroneous statement and a false opinion. I
stated the fact in nearly the same words the Noble Lord chose to
repeat it; I stated that thbir enemies—l (lid not entertain the ,
no-
tion, for I defended them against the attack—their enemies said
they had sacrificed their principles on the Catholic question for s
the
sake of keeping in their places, meaning thereby that the Govern-
ment_
ought to be broken up, that any other hands rather than
theirs might have brought forward the measure ; not that I e"
my opinion, but I suspended it ; and the great anger of the 1_
Noble
and Learned Lord makes me think that now I ought to do N
m
than susliend it. '
The LORD CH AN C!
eLs LrOr
y for he
R— Iftvin
heNg
sopbelkeeann
ads
I d
I. eaird, bu
n ed Lt
ro
Lord
says he did not say so, I a
warmth was occasioned by my conceiving it to be an offensive at-
tack.
However, I must apologize after this retraction—
Lord BROUGHAM—No, no • I must not be understood to re-
tract. I stated that I defended the Noble Lord in 1828, but I said
that when people repeated conduct a second time, which was suspi_
cious and equivocal before, but which I had then defended, I might
suspend my opinion uow.—(Cries of " Order."
occasioned
eeeAdlUbLy GseßveAreVl E then
Peers leaving
bgtuht in consequence of the noiseeneuse,hisLerdshipwa.
inaudible for some time. The Noble and Learned Lord had said
that the dismissal of the late Ministers was entirely satisfactory to
the country, and he instanced a meeting at Manchester, which con-
sisted of the friends of Mr. Cobbett, and. he said the people saw
Peel,
that there was no alternative bat Mr. Cobbett or Sir Robert
_
as they did not wish the return of the late Ministors. But
there
was no alternative ih the question, Mr. Cobbett and Sir R. Peel
being both on the same side. The reason why Mr. Cobbett
Nobleo
posed the return of the late Ministry was one which the„
t
Duke would not wish to have urged against him—the passing of
the Poor Law Bill.—(Hear, hear.) That was the reason why n
adverse resolution was carried at Manchester. But what we,: the
real e
real opinion of the respectable inhabitants, as displayed in the
general election-? They -returned Mr. Poulett Thomson and
Alr. M. Phillips by a triumphant majority, against the sup-
porter of the Noble and Learned Lord's Governmenet,bbewtr
split his vote and combined his forces in favour of c
The result of the elections in the city of London; the metropo-
litan boroughs, and 'the great provincial towns had been e,„lr
tirely different to that which the new Government anticipated. sf
Robert Peel had declared at the dinner given at the Mansion
house that he must be supported by men on whom the country
could also rely. But what had become of the men upon whose
support he had calculated? What became of Sir George Mistral.
in Scotland, and what became of the newly-appointed Lords of the.)
-Admiralty, who sought to be returned to Parliament after they had
accepted office ? Why they were as much scattered as ever a con-
voy was by a storm. It was quite true, as the Noble Duke had
mentioned, that Lord Palmerston had been ousted from the repre-
sentation of Hampshire, and that the reformers had also suffered a
defeat at Chatham, but the triumph of the principles of reform was
notwithstanding, fully established by the result of the late elections.
But then the House was told that the present Government, ought
to have a fair trial. Had they not, however, been tried already
and found guilty, for four years, of incapacity to guide the helm of
the state? They were condemned by the country simply on the
evidence afforded by their previous character ; and they Were,
not fit to be trusted by the country, they were not entitled
to the confidence of Parliament. With respect to the question
of the Irish Church, it appeared that his Majesty's Ministers had
put into the mouth of the Sovereign something which implied an
intention to effect a settlement of that important question. He
hoped they were sincere in that intention, but he owned that be
felt no great confidence that they would fulfil the wishes of the
country in that respect, particularly when he remembered the waist
ner in which a majority of that House had acted on tha' same
question at the close of the last Parliament, when a measure for
the benefit of the Church of Ireland was brought in by his gar'
jesty's then Ministers' and defeated by one of the most factious,
votes ever given in Parliament—( Hear, hear.) The rejection 0'
that measure had occasioned not only the greatest possible distress'
to the Irish clergy, but it had also produced party strife and blood-
shed.
The Earl of RIPON commenced by stating that ii, ease sot "big
intention to vote for the amendment proposed by his Noble Friend,
but, on the contrary, to support the original motion—( Hear, hear.)
At the same time he conceived he was bound to state, that although
prepared to adopt that step, he was not so fully prepared to give his
unqualified support to his Majesty's present Ministers. It might 'goo..
pected from him, considering his former connexion with ate Isis
Government, to explain the reasons which induced him UP
withdraw from the Ministry of Earl Grey ; but he did not think thaS
he was called upon at the present time to enter upon thrg explanation,
further than to say that he felt himself compelled, 'rom a feeling of
positive duty, to abandon the colleagues with whorl he was then Ws:
elated, and having adopted that course, he felt slat it was impossible be
could give those colleagues any longer his support, differing from theia
as he did on a great and important question. He felt that he could b°
longer place the same confidence in Earl Grey's Government that he herd
done before, and when Lord Grey himself resigned, he felt that his true
in the Government was still further shaken.--(Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to the present ministers, he felt that he could not give them his
unqualified support, but at the same time he was not disposed to oppose
them, unless their own acts and measures compelled him to do so. ID
was willing, in short, to give them a fair trial, but be would add that 'ilie
nature support of ministers would depend upon their acting up to the
principles they avowed, and upon the sort of measures which they
should bring forward for the sanction of Parliament. His noble and
learned friend has argued, that because men on former occasion, were
opposed to particular measures, they were not, however, en titled t°
credit because they happened to change their opinions and advd"
cate prim iples which they had previously denounced. That, however,
was a princ ple utterly untenable. For himself, he hag voted WOst
every measure of Reform brought into the other House of Parliamen"
and yet he formed one of the very Ministry that passed the Refotre
Bill, and his Noble and Learned Friend never considered it a degrade"
tion to be associated with him when that great measure was brought
forward. In advocating that Bill, he had made personal sacrifices, but.'
still he gave the measure his feeble but earnest support, and he never
heard his Noble and Learned Friend say, that because he had formerrf
opposed Reform, he was therefore unfit to sit in a Cabinet in which Ole
Reform Bill was proposed, although his Noble and Learned Friend WeS
fully aware that he had invariably voted against Reform in the }I"
of Commons. He would not enter into circumstances which led to
the dissolution of the late Government, but with respect to the circum-
stances which occurred during the interregnum, he certainly agreed
so far with his Noble and Learned Friend, that those circumstances were
to a certain extent unconstitutional, and could not be defended, unleet.
the exigency of the case rendered them absolutely necessary. He voidd
go further, and say, that some Parliamentary notice ought to be taken°.
those circumstances, unless,' they could be fully justified ; but having
heard the explanation of the Noble Duke, Isedid not think there were
any grounds fbr pursuing the inquiry. With regard to the measures
proposed in his Majesty's speech, he confessed that they appeared•
to him rather indistinct and unsatisfactory. There was nothing
tang'ble proposed, and no principles laid down for Minist,ert
to act upon, from which the country might feel some assurance
that the line of policy intended to be pursued was in conformity with the
feelings and wishes of the people. Certainly those who wished for
something more explicit, and who felt no confidence in the Gore:rumen",
might move an amendment for the purpose of eliciting more direct DP
formalion s but this he would say, from long experience, that it wit°
hardly possible in a King's Speech that the measures to which it re-
ferred could be distinctly shadowed out an., set forth in detail.' Titer! was one thing, however, perfectly clear--that the measures intended '"'
he brought forward by Government mist be in confOrmity with the prin-
ciples of telbrin, and must accord with the feelings and happiness of the
people. He would not enter at length into the various questions t°
which the attention of Parliament must be directed, because thele
would be ample opportunity for discussing them during the sersifflti
but with regard to the question of municipal corporations, he musts' Of
that the lorlsrmation contained in the King's Speech with regard VI
that question was very meagre and unsatisfactory. The Speech did I'"
afford any info:rnatiou as to whether the feelings of the country upon
that subject were to be consulted or rot, or whether measures were 0
be brought forward to place the corporations on a more sound and e 01"
cleat fboting. The Noble Earl, after adverting to the difficulties wiii''',
prevented a full inquiry into the abuses of existing corporations, ob'
served that It was Impossible the King's Speech could have been more
exPliCil on that subject, Upon the grounds he had stated, he repente4'
that it was not his intention to vote for the amendment, because be
wished to see good measures carried, he cared not by whom.—(o.4oll
Lord BROUGHAM rose amidst loud cries of " Spoke." Hebeggs;
to expiatn, and claimed his right to be heard. He, had been teininde',
by a Noble Marquis near him that the Noble and Learned Lord on rh,:
Woolsack had alluded to tl e circumstance ofhis having filled up o''
commissions of the peace after the late Government had been virtually
dismissed. It was certainly true that he had issued 10 or 12 consrot dons of the peace about a fortnight or three weeks before that eve`
took place, and it was very possible that some of those convasissions had
been brought to town for his approval and signature after the Govern".
ment was broken up, and that circumstance might have led to • lie rni';
take into which the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woo ,sack had
fallen. But the Noble and Learned Lord had stated that those coot'
missions—whether six or more was of no consequence—were not issued
in accordance with the feelings of the Lord-Lieutenant of the count
for which they were designed. Now with regard to that, he took leave
to say, that while lie he'd the Great Seal he neves consulted the feelings
of the Lord-Lieutenant of a county in the appe,intment of new justices'
Some Lords-Lieutenant, he knew, were guived in the choice of insitis'
trates by their privote predilections, and Rosy generally endeavoured '''
procure the appointment of those gentlemen whose political feel .
coincided with their own. He knew of some Lords-Lieutenant who
were in ti.e habit of consulting the jeistices themselves as to whether,,
they required additional assistance--a practice against which be 00,
_1
always decidedly set his face. With regard to his Noble and Learn'.
Friend's retention of the Chief Baronship in conjunction with the sesiii
he did not mean to' say that such a step was incorrect. The urgeneY °
the occasion might render it necessary. In fact, had the Seals bee" P.,S,
„-
in commission, the Court of Chancery would have 'been virtUrso;
shut up,
The Duke of WELLINGTON observed, that on a late occsssi°°:
gentleman was placed on the Commission in the county of SoutharoPie-;
to whom he had made an objection when.he was to communicaiiej-
with the Noble and Learned Lord (Brougham) on the subjeot. Be4h,!,
objected to this gentleman, not on account of his character or qualifies'
tions, but simply because he was under recognizance, to keep the Pe.-*
against one of the Magistrates of the county.
Lord BROUGHAM had considered the ca :e, and decided against the
Noble Duke. As to the objection of beiog under recognizances ts
keep the peace, he (Lord Brougham) hir-,self wall at the time in questifl
in a similar situaSibn. The responsibility of the act rested entireil, ,
with the Lord Chancellor.
'
The Duke of WELLINGTON never doubted the power of ti!,
Lord-Chancellor to appoint, but thOught that a person bound over '"
seep the peace ought not to have been selected.
, The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the fact was fists
, that silt were sent to the office two or three days after the 14th (the day of the
dissolution of the late Ministry), and all of them purported to be eigeeato
on that day. The names were inserted in only two of these. Aliso,
! Lord Lieutenants complained of the want of communication on t°
occasions.
Lord BROUGHAM, in reply, said that the Noble and Learned r. —f &ni
was ististaken in the day. The commissions had been signed a fortni' A
before, He himself 6id not know of the dissolution of the late Mini Al
until II o'clock on the night of the 14th.
The LORD CHANCELLOR had made inquiry at the 0f,404 esi:
ascertained that they had been sent to the office two or three,
(iris sae„
the date on which they purported to be signed.
Hire this conversation ended amid general cries of "
The Duke of RICHMOND would set out with r'..ething his int el'i
tion to vote for the original Address, and to cone en
in the rate°tic ji,.°
the amendment moved by hit Noble Friend.— csdear, hear.) Son at "i-
-dicule had been thrown coq the conduct of ths,se Question." 4.
persons
posed to give the Present Ministry a fair tifial. Now
he would ' ,rsol' who WC,
~cji1,31,;
confess ttasst *statist no confidence in they composition of the pre ,ent A t
o
tr4istAntion, nor Could he allord ki il
s confidence to the men woo n
turned, roifna on the Catholic ipseittlott. But he war not, ho /roe e 0,,,,
,;.1
Pined to allowing them a (air trial, How 0 stood the case ? TY co! 0
. • . ~ .

stated that that was the second breach which had be;2nt
made in the Government, and that he was quite confident!
he could not, in the due discharge of his duty •to his King ,
and to his country, attempt any longer to carry on the Government,
Lord Althorp being so essentially necessary in the other House.
Everybody who heard the Noble Earl knew that he referred to the
position of Lord Althorp in the House of Commons, where he
possessed the confidence of the House. The Noble Earl stated that
in consequence of that Noble Viscount's retirement, he felt com-
pelled to tender hisown resignation at the same time that he tendered
the Noble Viscount's to his Sovereign. Why did he (the Lord
Chancellor) allude to these facts ? Because they must all have been
well known to his Majesty. His Majesty well knew the position
of the Noble Earl ; he had great confidence in the Noble Earl,
and he considered the position of Lord Althorp as an essential part
of the Government. Lord Althorp was afterwards induced to re-
sume office, and it was in consequence of that resumption that the
nevi Cabinet was formed. It was formed upon that very circum-
stance; and when the Nobie Viscount was subsequently removed
from the other House, the Noble Lord, who at that moment sat
near him, (the Lord Chancellor) went to his Majesty, and said
the foundation on which the Cabinet had been formed had been
taken away, and it was for his Majesty in this new and altered
state of circumstances, to say whether he would refer to other
counsel, or whether he (the Noble Lord) would endeavour to re-
form the Government again. What was the point, therefore, for
the consideration of the Sovereign? And when he (the Lord Chan-
cellor) said the Sovereign, he talked of the Ministers who had
succeeded the late Government, for they were the parties who were
responsible. Was it not competent for his Majesty to consider whe-
ther the Government proposed to be formed again by the late Noble
Lord at the head of it was likely to be permanent ; and if his Ma-
jesty was satisfied that it would not be likely to be permanent, but
might be broken up at a time when it might be productive of much
more mischief than the breaking of it up at that moment was cal-
culated to occasion, was his Majesty not justified in changing his
Ministers, as he had done? He (the Noble and Learned Lord)
had had an opportunity of considering these circumstances, and he
was satisfied in his judgment and conscience that if he had been
called upon to act in such circumstances, he should have acted
exactly as Isis Majesty had done—( Hear, hear)—he considered him-
self as one Of the Ministers who were responsible for what had been
done, and he shoUld have been ashamed of himself if he had been
called upon to advise his Majesty, and he had not advised him to
dismiss the late Ministers—(Much cheering)—not to dismiss them
as a matter of reproach, but because under the circumstances, and
after the repeated breaches that had taken place in the Government
there could be no good ground for supposing it would be perma-
nent if made up again, but rather for believing that it would break
up at a time when it would produce the greatest inconvenience.—
, (Cheers.) But the Noble and Learned Lord had talked a great
deal of the Government having had the confidence of the House of
Commons and of the country. Where had the Noble and Learned
Lord been? Where was he when Parliament was dissolved? He
(the Lord Chancellor) thought he could say from his own know-
ledge there never had been a measure adopted by the Crown that
gave more entire satisfaction.—(Cheers.) One circumstance in proof
of it occurred at that moment to his mind : a meeting was called
in Manchester, one of the most powerful and influential towns in
England, to addressl the Crown in favour of the late Ministers?
and what took place ? An amendment was moved at the meeting,
consisting of 10,000 persons, to address the Crown thanking his
Majesty for what he had done. Several such instances hail taken
place. He asked them upon weat ground was it that the Noble
Lords took upon themselves to say that the late Government had
the confidence of the House of Commons and of the country.—
(Cheers.) They had been charged with misconduct in recom-
mending a dissolution of Parliament ; yet it was impossible, as the
Noble and Learned Lord had said, to carry on the new Govern-
ment with that House of Commons. He admitted that there was
a necessity for a change, and therefore a dissolution took place.—
( Hear.) That was the natural consequence after all. Indeed,
was it anything very novel that his Majesty should take the sense of
the people? if so, it was the first time he had ever heard of it.
The people were appealed to, and what was the result ? A great
number of Gentlemen were rejected by their former constitu-
ents and many sent to their seats who held opinions consonant
with the new Government, so that the consequence justified the
appeal.—( Hear.) So much for those two points—but there was
another charge brought against his Majesty's Government, or ra-
ther against the Noble Duke, who, in consequence
of the absence of the Right Hon. Baronet (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer), took upon him the office of First Lord of the Trea-
sury. Now either the late Ministry must hare remained in power
till the return of the Right Hon. Baronet, or a new Government
formed provisionally, as had been done. Would it have been wise
or expedient to suffer the Government to remain in the hands of
the late Ministers ? It would not, because it would have endan-
gered the present Government.—(" Hear," from the Opposition. )
Had the late Ministers remained in office, what use would they
have made of it? Their Lordships very well knew that no person
holding the great seal had ever been in the habit of putting the
names of persons into the commission of the peace .without consult-
ing the lords-lieutenant of the respective counties. He had never
done so, nor did he believe that his noble predecessor had. But
what was done by the Noble and Learned Lord himself ? He sent
for the commissions of six counties, and made out the fiats for the
insertion of the names of persons after he was out of office. The
names were actually inserted, not only without application to the
lords-lieutenants of the counties, but in direct opposition to their
known wishes.—( Hear, hear.) He did not, however, say that this
illegal, but merely would ask, ought such a power to remain in the
hands of any Minister, or be exercised by him after he had been
virtally removed ?—(Hear, hear.) With respect to Church
patronage, it would certainly ' have been compesent for Minis-
ters to dispose of it as they pleased ; but was it not right that, un-
der the circumstances, the Government should be taken up by some
person ? and who more fit for the task than the Noble Duke ?
(Cheers.) His Majesty offered him (the Lord Chancellor) the
Great Seal while he occupied another office; but was there any-
thing improper in that, or a plurality of offices ? There were re-
peated instances of the same thing. Lord Liverpool was both First
Lord of the Treasury and Secretary of State at the same time.
Were the offices incompatible ? If so, they ought not to be held
by the same person ; but the law had provided for it. When the
Chancellorship of the Exchequer was vacant, who was to hold the
seals ? The Lard Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench, who
also held another high office. He did not consider that he had
acted contrary to the law or his duty, and the Noble and Learned
Lord should not say that he had no authority for it, for he told him
to do it, and had declared, that it was the best course he could take.
--(Laughter.) But how did those who were called to office con-
duct themselves? There was a pledge, a mutual pledge given;
that no office should be disposed of, and no promise made, and that
nothing should be done that was*not strictly necessary for carrying
on the immediate business of the country. Such was the course
pursued, and reprehended by the Noble and Learned Lord.
Lord BROUGHAM—I did not reprehend it. I never said a
word about it.--( Cries of " Order.")
The LORD CHANCELLOR—But to pass from these.objects
to another point--the measures recommended to his Majesty—or
rather in his Majesty's speech. The Noble and Learned Lord said
we were going to bring forward some measure founded upon the
report of the Commissioners for inquiring into Municipal Corpora-
tions. That was not to be found in the Royal speech, but merely a
statement of the progress of the question, that the Commissioners
were pursuing their inquiry : that application had been made to
know if they were preparing their report, that they had declared it
would shortly be ready, and when finished it would be submitted to
both Houses of Parliament for consideration, and what was done
must depend npon the nature of that report and the evidence upon
which it was, founded.-,-(Hear.) It would be premature' then, for
the Government to bring forward any measure until that inquiry
should be completed and that report furnished.—(Hear.) But
the Noble and Learned Lord said they had adopted the commission.
He agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend as to the weakness of
that commission. It was said to the Commissioners, " You are to
inquire into the state of the property of the respective corporations;
you are to summon persons before you and examine them cn
oath, and require them to produce all deeds, papers, writings,
and titles, relating to the property and privileges of the
several corporations." He had heard that these directions were
illegal, aaid that they could not be acted upon consistently with
the law of the country, and the Noble and Learned Lord roust
have taken a very superficial view of the matter if he thought other-
wise. Now, in answer to the charge of inconsistency, he would
refer to the measures mentioned in the speech of his Majesty, and
ask where was any inconsistency apparent? First, as to the ques-
tion of the commutation of the Irish tithes : he had never ex-
pressed an opinion adverse to the settlement of that question, nor
had he ever opposed the measure, though he might have objected
to some particular details. But then, it was said, sufficient notice
had not been taken of other matters connected with the Irish church.
To this he answered, that there was a commission appointed to
investigate the entire establishment, and until that Commission had
completed its labouxs it would be premature in the Government to
adopt any measure. Then there was reference made to some former
conduct of his, of which he would only remark that he denied the
statements that had been advanced altogether, Could the Noble
and Learned Lord charge him with discrepancy, or his Noble
Friends opposite with inconsistericy ? Let him, it he could, point
out in any one speech a sentence uttered by him against the Oentinu-
tation of tithes. He had never spoken against that measure.
Lord BROUGHAM.—No.
The LORD CHANCELLOR,--The Noble Lord acknowledges
it ; but he says, " Look at the Speech," and he supposes that the
reforms therein proposed are inconsistent with our farmereonduct—
LORD BROUGHAM here rose, amidst loud cries of " Order."
He said—l rise to order. It is the uniform practice, when a
Noble Lord unintentionally mistakes or argues upon a Mis-statc-
ment, to set him right as he goes on, or there vietnd be no end to
discussion. I never said the speech carried iPconsistencies in it,
though it is vague and general; but there are pledges enough in it.
The LORD CHANCELLOR.—The Noble Lord says we are
inconsistent in being Reformers. I say my professions of reform
are confined to that Speech, and there is nothing in it that is
consistent with my former conduct.--( Cheers.) The net point
to which the Speech adverted, was the reform of the law courts,
and the ecclesiastical Nuns, the improvement of the civil juris-
prudence, and church discipline, all objects a great importance.
The Commission for reforming the eecleciastical courts, was
issued when he formerly held the Great Seal, and all the other
measures were equally and perfectly consistent with his whole
conduct.---( Cheers.) Then about the Dissenters. It was
true the subject of marriage only was alluded to in his Ma-
jesty's Speech, and the Noble Lord sneered at the manner in
which the Government was about to relieve the Dissenters ;
but when the bill came before the House be would have an
epportiniity of judging and arguing upon it. It was, he thought,
a little too premature in the Learned and Noble Lord to sneer at it
before he saw it and knew what it was._( Cheers.) He was au-
thorized to %tate, and he would state, that the proposed measure
of relief far the Dissenters would comprehend the registration of
births and burials, as well as marriage. This brought him to ano-
ther most important measure—the Church ,Commission. Was
there anything inconsistent in that ? That commission had been
appointed for the most important purpose—namely, an inquiry into
the revenues of the dioceses and the Clerey, with a view to a more
equal distribution of wealth, to promote residence, and, as far as
possible, to provide spiritual instruction for the people, by applying
the produce of sinecures to that substantial and important object.
Did the Noble Lord charge them with inconsistency for that ? Let
him point out how these measures were inconsistent with anything
they had formerly done or promised to do. As a practical illustra-
tion he would remind the Noble Lord, that recently a valuable sine-
cure had fallen in, and it had been applied to meet the wants of a
parish containing 25,000 inhabitants, for whom no commensurate
provision had been before made ; and it was the intention of the
Quernusent to refer every sinecure that might become available to
that commission, to point out the beat mode of applying it to the
performances of actual services.—(Hear, hear, add cheers.
What, theu, became p 1 the charge of inconsistency ? He denied it
Op nothing' . There was recommended in the Royal Speech,
or,nOw contemplated lay the *GeNernment, that any member of that
Goyernmea had on emy former occasion opposed, and persons who
made such Oarges ought first to be sore that they rested upon a
solid foundatipn.:,-(Cheers.) was quite sure that their Lord-
ships,and he hoped the other House also, would wait to see what
were really tlke nateasures the G^,-,--v.eTrAment intended to bring for-
NFf'.4l C9,tEiq to haatA
c0c,....an upon their estimate of the
impgples of the othe( ear, hear.) Whatever might be the
result of that night's debate ha
upon the judgment of the
TT • ."
'souse of Commons, and the good sense of the people of Englcrid,
influencing and directing the Judgmen of that Hore, licetiSit%
• '

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