The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MA ME 9.
Mr. BARNETT presented a petition from the master,
wardens, and lightermen of the Watermen'e Company
praying to be beard by Council against the Gravesend Pier
Bill.—Referred to the Committee.
Mr. TREVOR presented a petition from a resident at
Stockton, praying to be heard by Counsel upon the Clarence
Rail-road &H.—Referred to the Committee.
Mr. CALLAGHAN presented a petition from the
parish of Whitchurch, in the county of Cork, praying
that the Commissions for the Peace may be with-
drawn from the Clergy; also, a petition from the ma-
nufacturers and householders of Cork, praying for a re-
peal of the coal duty, which was, he understood,
proposed to be done by a Bill now before the House. As
he had been assured by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ire-
land that he would give his sanction to the repeal of that
tax, he (Mr. Callaghan) would not trouble the House
with any observations of his own upon the subject.
Mr. HEYWOOD presented a petition from the opera-
tives in the employ of Mr. Thomas Ashton, of Hyde, in

• -
the county of Lancaster, regarding the Labour in Fac-
tories' Bill. The petitioners were of opinion that a fur•
ther reduction in the hours of labour beyond the Bill that
was passed last Session would bring with it a reduction of
wages, which would prove injurious to the operatives, and
they prayed that the hours of labour might not be further
abridged. The Hon. Member had heard with some
anxiety that the Bill of the last session was not effectual,
and he believed that no plan would be an effectual remedy,
unless a restriction were placed on the working of steam

engines.
The 110 N. MEMBER. also presented a petition from the
operative spinners in the township of Bury, in Lancashire,
upon the same subject ; those petitioners complained that to
shorten the period of labour would necessarily reduce the
amout of wages, and they were of opinion that no further
restrictions in the period of daily labour, beyond those in
the Bill of last session, were necessary.
Lord MORPETH had also some petitions upon the
same subject to present, both for and against the Bill. The
first was from the inhabitants of the town and neighbour-
hood of Wakefield, most numerously and respoctablysigned,
in favour of the Bill. The petitioners deeply deplored the
present system, by which children were injured in
their health, their morals, and their personal comforts,
and which entailed on' them disease and prema-
ture death ; they stated that ten hours' labour
per day were quite sufficient, and they prayed that
the hours of labour might be restricted to that period
in all manufactories in the kingdom. The next petition
was from Gisborougb, in the North Riding of the county
of York, also in favour of the Bill. He would
now come to the other side of the picture. The
first petition was from the owners and occupiers of
cotton mills, 85 in number, in the town and neighbour.
hood of Leeds, against the Bill. It might be said with
truth that they were interested parties, but looking at the
names of the parties, the petition was entitled to much
attention. They received the Bill with alarm, and they
repelled with indignation the foul charges which had been
made against the master-spinners by the supporters
of the Bill. They considered that the effect of the Bill
would be to increase the price of labour, and that,
in consequence, manufactured goods would be so
much increased in price, that they would be unable
to compete with the foreign market. (Hear.) They
therefore prayed that if any alteration were made in the
duration of labour, it should be only to limit the duration
of labour to twelve hours a day for five days in the week,
and to nine hours on Saturdays.
The petitions were read, and ordered to lie on the table.
The NOBLE LORD then presented a petition from the
journeymen printers of Stamford, in Lincolnshire, pray-
ing for a reduction in the duties on adtertisements
and newspapers. The petitioners had heard with
much satisfaction the announcement by the Noble Lord
(Althorp) that it was intended to reduce those duties, and
they regretted that that reduction had been so long delayed.
It could be proved that for six months of the year not one
half the printers of the metropolis were employed, and that
of those who were employed, not two-thirds were in con-
stant work all the year round ; the consequence was, that
great numbers were obliged to leave the metropolis, and
wander through the country seeking employment. The
petitioners also complained that master printers took too
many apprentices, and that if the duties were reduced, em-
ployment would be much more extended. They added that
if the duties were not reduced, they would at some future
time be obliged to petition the House to interfere between
the masters and themselves, in order that they might be
protected against the employment of so many apprentices.
The Noble Lord said he entirely concurred in the views
and prayer of the petitioners, and he regretted that the
Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was absent,
for he would have inquired when it was probable that the
reduction of the duties would take place.
Mr. TREVOR could not concur with all the state-
ments made by the Noble Lord. He thought if indivi-
duals chose to embark in newspaper speculations they
ought to pay for them. In making these observations he
might be charged with being an enemy to the Press, but
he strenuously denied being so. He thought if the duty
was increased on newspapers, in the present licentious
state of the Press, it would be attended with a correspond-
ing advantage.
Lord AIORPETH, in moving the printing of the peti-
tion, observed that the ground on which he chiefly wished
such reduction, was for the purpose of benefitting the
advertising public.
The NOBLE LORD then presented a petition from the
merchants of Saddleworth, in the West Riding of York,
calling the attention of the House to the losses they had
sustained from the non-adjustment of their claims with the
Government of the Brazils, and praying that the
House would institute an inquiry for the pur-
pose of discovering the cause why their claims
as British merchants on the Government of Brazil
had not been liquidated. The Hon. Member for Glasgow
had adjourned his motion on this subject for a fortnight or
three weeks, by which time he trusted the Noble Lord at
the head of the Foreign Department would be prepared to
bring forward some plan which would have the effect of
relieving the petitioner!.
Mr. STRICKLAND hoped Government would adopt
some means whereby the anxiety of merchants might be
allayed on this subject.
Mr. CHAPMAN presented a petition from the county
of Westmeath in favour of Reform.
Colonel ROCHFORD thought the petition could not
be considered as expressing the sense of the county on the
subject of Reform, as some time ago he had presented a
petition against it from the same county.
Mr. CHAPAIAN also presented a petition from the in-
habitants of a borough in Westmeath, praying for the
abolition of tithes.
Sir M. S. STEWART presented a petition from Sir
John Maxwell, of Pollock, and other individuals connected
with the county of Renfrew, in favour of the present Re-
form Bill, and praying the King to exercise his preroga•
tive in the creation of as many Peers as would ensure its
success.—( Hear.)
Mr. MILKS presented two petitions from Friendly
Benefit S ,eieties in Newport, praying for an alteration in
the 40th section of the Friendly Society Act, which com-
pelled them, at great expense, to enrol these Societies
within a certain time. The lion. Member concurred en-
tirely with the prayer of the petitioners.
Mr. DENISON thought the House ought to be care-
ful how they altered Acts relating to these Societies.
Mr. CHOKER trusted to God no wild innovations
would be made in these acts.
Mr. WILKS then gave notice, that on Tuesday next
he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to extend
the time for the enrollment of these Societies. As the Act
at present stood, these Societies were bound to enrol them-
selves by the 19th of June, by which they incurred con-
siderable expense. A great number of Societies were
breaking up in different parts of the country, because they
would not incur the great expense of enrolling themselves.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON bore testimony to the
fact stated by the Hon. Member; the Act had created
great dissatisfaction.
Mr. E. DENISON admitted these Societies were eisti-
tled to every protection which the law could throw around
them, but he considered the continual change of legisla-
tion on their behalf could net be attended with any good.
After a few observations from Mr. WETLAND, the pe-
tition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN gave notice that on Mon-
day he should move for returns relative to the duties re-
ceived on silk goods and gloves, from the sth January,
1831, to the sth January, 1832.
Mr. LENNARD presented a petition from Chelmsford
in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill.
- Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition from the mem-
bers of the Political Council of Wolverhampton,: in favour
of the Factories Bill.
Aldermen WOOD moved the order of the day for the
second reading of the Steam Navigation Bill. Having
been read a second time, it was ordered to be committed
on Monday next.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition from the inhabitant
householders of the parish of Christ Church, Surrey,
complaining of the number of turnpike-trusts in that
neighbourhood. The Hon. Member stated that within
one mile there were no fewer than throe, and in
onie roads four trusts ; •and he sincerely hoped that
inaillAr relief would be *traded in the me of the

southern districts as had foraged/ bees g n te C c
northern parte of the metropolis.
Alderman WOOD supported the prayer of the petition.
Mr. CROKER ventured to say that in consequence n'
the appointment of the Con mi.sioners, of which he was
one, to consolidate the Northern Metropolitan Roads
they had been enaiaed to remove a great numbe-
of tolls, and pay off a considerable debt, while the
roads were kept at the same time in as good a state of
repair as possible. He was aware that there were
parts of the roads that were not in a good :condi-

don, but he should like to know where a simi.

tar complaint could nut be made. At all events, since the

appointment of the Commissioners, those complaints were
less frequent, and had less foundation. Under these

circumstances, he recommended that the gentlemen at

Surrey should adopt the plan which had been so successful
in the northern parts of the Metropolis.
Mr. HbNT hoped the Government would take up the
subject, and remove the great grievances of which the
petitioners complained.
Mr. WILKS wished to know whether the supple-
mental evidence taken by the Committee subsequent to
their report, which had been laid before the House, would
yet he produced?
The SPEAKER said, that although it would not he
perfectly irregular to make a motion to that effect, it would
be perfectly inconsistent with the usual proceedings of the
House. The Committee bad power to report from time
to time, and their final ulterior report had not yet been
placed upon the table of that House.
Lord ALTHORP moved the order of the day, for the
House to resolve into a Committee on the Reform Bill,
when
Ile Marquis of CHANDOS rose to ask a question
of the Noble Lord opposite ( Howick) relative to the late
insurrection in the island of Jamaica. He wished to know
whether his Majesty's Government had received any des
patches from that Island, and whether they were calcu-
lated to allay that anxiety of feeling which at present
existed in this country?
Lord HOWICK was happy to inform the Noble Mar-
quis that despatches had this morning been received from
Jamaica, which on the whole might be considered
satisfactory. They certainly led to the conclusion
that the insurrection bad been suppressed, that almost
all the ringleaders had been arrested, that most of them
suffered the punishment of their crimes, and that gene-
rally the Negroes were returning to their work. No re-
sistance, it was apprehended by the Governor, would be
made. At the same time it was not to be denied that
there had been most fearful destruction of property in
the island ; and he was afraid also a very considerable
loss of life. With respect to the West Indies generally,
he did not apprehend the slightest uneasiness need be felt.
The Marquis of CHANDOS begged to call the Noble
Lord's attention to a document which be held in
his hand, which stated, in reference to a despatch from the
Colonial Office in England, that no modification was to be
allowed by the local legislators, that if not adopted it was
to be wholly rejected, and that the commander of troops
at St. Lucia declared, if the merchants refused to open
their stores, he would compel them to do so. by force.
He wished to know, with reference to this Order in Coun-
cil, whether what he had read was literally correct?
Lord HOWICK said, with respect to the measures
taken in the island of Jamaica, he had no difficulty
in stating that although the representation was greatly
exaggerated, it was virtually correct. In December last a
circular despatch was addressed by Lord Goderich to
the Governors of the Islands having Assemblies, in
which he informed them that it was the intention
of Government to propose a fiscal measure for the
relief of the West India colonies, with a condition an-
nexed to it, that that relief should apply to those colonies,
and to those colonies alone, which should adopt the plea-
sures recommended to them for so many years. In order
to prevent all cavil or dispute as to what should or should
not be considered a compliance with the wishes of Parlia-
ment and the country, he further informed the Governors
that the passing of a declaratory Act, giving to the late Order
in Council the force of law, was the only compliance
which should be considered satisfactory—(Hear, hear, from
the Marquis of Chandos and Sir R. Peel.) The Right
Hon. Gentlemen cheered ; if that had been the proper
opportunity, he believed he could triumphantly have
defended the course taken on that occasion by Government.
But be would not allow himself to be drawn into that dis-
cussion. He was sure, however, that no one connected with
Government would, on a proper occasion, shrink from it.
Thus much he would say at the present moment, that in
the course they had taken, Government had only followed
the advice of those who were allowed to be the best judger
of the real state of affairs in the West India colonies.
He need not call to the attention of the House
what passed shortly after the accession to office of the
present Administration, when ose Member after another
got up and expressed, in the strongest terms, their con-
demnation of Government, for allowing the irritating
controversy of the last eight years to continue.
They said, and in his opinion truly, that it was the duty
of Government to come forward with some decided pro-
posal *and say that it should be carried. He regretted
he had no suspicion that this subjects would be brought
forward on the present occasion, or he would have brought
down extracts from several speeches made in most decided
terms by several Hon. Members new in the House. Particu-
larly he recollected that the Member for Sandwich had
stated in very distinct terms, on the occasion he alluded to,
that it was now necessary, after employing every persua-
sion, to adopt the course which Government had taken.
But there was another point alluded to by the Noble
Marquis which he could not pass over. He had
stated, that there was a report current in Antigua
that in St. Lucia the Governor had determined, if the
merchants reused to open their stores, to compel them
to do so by force, and as in the public newspapers of this
morning there had been the greatest misapprehen-
sion, he would take that opportunity of entering
into a history of the affairs of that island.
On the 24th of December, the Commanding Officer of
the troops (the Governor of the island), having received his
Majesty's Order of the 2d of November, in pursuance of
the instructions he had received, gave notice that the Order
which had been forwarded to him would come into opera-
tion on the 18th January. This excited very violent remon-
strances on the part of the planters. Those remonstrances
went on for some time, and every effort was made to get
the Governor to withdraw his notice ; but, in conse-
quence of the instructions he had received, he felt, very
properly, that consistently with the due discharge of his
duty he could not but decline complying with the re-
quests. Alarming reports were then circulated, and
to those acquainted with West India matters, that such
reports should have been circulated could not occasio❑
surprise. On the evening of Saturday, the 14th of Jan.,
the Governor received information that none of the shops
or stores would be open on the following Monday. The
pretence for shutting up the shops and stores was,
that an extra tax had been laid upon them, and
accordingly there have been petitions and remonstrances,
the strongest and most unfounded, against adding to the ex-
penditure of the island, and increasing the taxation there.
But what was the fact? The expenditure instead of
having been increased since 1825, as bad been constantly
asserted, had been very greatly reduced. It was 'e-
duced two years ago by the Right Hon. and Gallant officer
the Secretary of the bland, and in the filling up of every
appointment since Lord Goderich came into office, reduc-
tions had been made. The Governor, whose alary had
been 2,500/, had been reduced to 2,000/. ; the Chief
Justice had had his salary reduced from 2,000/. to 1,2501.
All the terleries had bee❑ reduced ; nor had any one
new appointment taken place, eacept in the new
system of judicature; and it was unnecessary to in-
form those acquainted with the island of St. Lucia, that
the reformed system of judicature introduced into that
island by Lord Goderich was a system which had been
most loudly called for—the former system having been justly
complained of by almost every body who had had occasion
to go into the Courts of Justice there. The expenses
of the island, which formerly were 19,2501. a year, were
now barely 12,0001.—n0t a great sum, considering the
necessary disbursements, and the whole was raised by
the inhabitants there without requiring any grant from this
country. There wassomething remarkable about the shutting
up of the stores and shops. The determination to shut
them up was founded upon the increase of taxation (as
professed) upon the shops and merchandise. Now, it
so happened that the order for levying that tax
had been issued, and proclaimed, and printed, on the
14th of December, and yet it was put forth as the ground
of the resolution on the 14th of January. Further, when
the Governor found that there was a general combination
in the Island to refuse to sell to the Government stores,
he also found that there were seventy-five per-
sons imprisoned, who had been committed for various
offences, and that there was only a supply of provi-
sions for eight days on hand. He was not a little alarmed
at this, and he immediately determined to send over
to the island of Martinique to purchase stores there.
In the prosecution of this determination he was for a time
met by several difficulties. Not an individual would allow a
boat to be hired or to go out to that island for such a purchase;
at last one was procured. The inhabitants were determined
if possible to frustrate the Governor's intentions, and they
resolved upon trending to Martinique, to urge the in-
, habitants there to act as they at St. Lucia bad done. Accord-
ingly they got a ship ready to sail, and put their letters on
board, addressed to their correspondents in Martinique. The
09TCTUOT received information of what was going on, and

~~~
~t~

found it necessary to counteract the project
he laid an embargo on that ship, and pre.-- ---
sailing. We understood the Noble Lord no w 31,1(
1
to say, that by some stratagem, the !eters on
board of this ship had got put on board of another, and
that upon a further attempt on the port of the merchants
send them off, the Governor found it necessary to stop
that ship, and to seize the letters. The Noble Lord con-
cluded by saying, that extracts of some of those
letters he then had in his hand, and which were rather
curious—part of them he would read to the House. The
first he would read was part of a letter addressed by Fer-
guson and Co. to some persons, correspondents of their's, in
Martinique. The extract was—" We have not opened
our stores since the 14th ; the shopkeepers have followed
our example ; it is done to resist the payment of taxes."
Mr. CROKER rose to order. For a time he thought
the Noble Lord had proceeded rightly and judiciously. So
far as his statement went to quiet the public mind there

L

could be no objection to his speech; but when he came to
state facts which might prejudice certain individuals, those
individuals neither being present nor having had notice of
the Noble Lord's intention to make such statements, he

;Mr. Croker) really felt bound to submit to the House, and

to the Noble Lord himself, whether such statements should

be proceeded in. He rather took shame to himself for

not having risen sooner.

Lord HOWICK acknowledged that he was wrong

n going into this detail on the present occasion ;

but as a great dissatisfaction had been expressed by certain
parties against measures that had been adopted, he did
think that it might not be altogether inapro-

per in him to have shown what those measures were,
and the cause of their adoption. He begged simply fur,
ther to state, that when it was found that the Governor

could get supplies elsewhere the shops and stores were im-
mediately opened. Whenever the proper time came, he
would be prepared to defend the Order of the Council, as

well as tilt:conduct of the Governor.

Mr. BURGE complained strongly of the conduct of
his Majesty's Government in sending out to Jamaica an

Order in Council, with directions that it should there be-
come the law of the island.
Lord ALTHORP rose to order, and said this was not a
proper time for discussing the Order in Council.
Mr. BURGE felt that he had a right to allude to the
Order in Council, as a part of the course pursued
by his 'Majesty's Government towards the col.ny, and sure
he was, that not a min who respected legisla•ive assemblies
would sanction such an order. He wished for the pro-
duf;tion not merely of an answer to certain despatches

_
which bad been sent out, but far certain docu.,
menta, which would show the manner in which
the Order in Council had been received, and what had

been its effects. If the Government wished to have the
colonies in the same state in which they were upon their
accession to office, they must pursue a course diametrically
opposite to that which they had hitherto pursued. So
long back as last September he wrote to the Noble

Lord (Howick), urging the appointment of a Committee of
Inquiry, and it was only last week that he had received
a reply.
Lord HOWICK explained that all the documents re-
ferred to by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
not yet been received, and he was understood to
say that he had no objection to lay such as were in his
possession before the House.
Sir R. PEEL protested against the conduct of his Ma-
jesty's Government towards the colony, and adverted to a
speech made sometime ago, by an Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman (Dr. Lnshington) filling a high situation under
Government, to the effect that he (Dr. Lushington)

was authorised to state that the free people of
colour were willing to make a sacrifice of their
rights; and also, that if the whites dared to breathe a
word of sedition, the free people of colour would rise up
against it. He (Sir Robert Peel) lamented to hear such

language applied to any class of persons, because it was
his object, and that of every Member of the House, to pro-
ceed in the work of amelioration.

Dr. LUSHINGTON thanked the Right Hon. Baronet

for affording him an opportunity of explaining any state-
ment that he had made, and of dispelling any tnisapprehen-
sion in the speech to which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had alluded. He bad stated that previous to the t;me when
the people of colour were admitted to en equal par-
ticipation of rights with the whiter, they (the free
people of colour) were ready to accede to any
measures of amelioration which the then Government might
propose. It appeared that on some occasions, during
meetings in the island, the measures by the then Govern-
ment were received with so much alarm by the %bite popu-
lation, that they threatened to put themselves under some
other Government. It was in consequence of such deela-
rations that the free people of colour declared in an address
to the Government that they would he ready to forfeit their
lives against any violent measures resorted to by the white
people. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman eulogised, in
warm terms, the conduct of the free people of co our
in suppressing tumults and disorders from 1823 to the
11 present period. He denied the assertion of the Right
Hon. Baronet that be held office under Government, and
contended that his present opidous regarding the mea-
sures that should be adopted towards the West India cc.
lonics were those that he had always entertained.
Sir R. PEEL could assure the Hon. anal Learned Mem-
ber and the House, that be had not the slightest intention
in what he had said to throw the least imputation on the
free people of colour in Jamaica, as he considered them, on
account of their exertion' to preserve the authority of the.
law, entitled to the greatest praise.
The subject then dropped, and the Order of the Day was
read for the House resolving itself into Committee on the
Reform Bill. On the motion that the Speaker do leave
the Chair,
Mr. BURGE rose for the purpose of giving an answer
to what had fallen from the Hun. Member opposite, het
the cries of " Order, order," and " Chair, chair," resound..
ing from all parts of the House, and the Speaker having
intimated to the Hon. Member that he could not now re-
new the debate, he instantly gave way.
THE REFORM BILL.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the
Reform Bill ; and on the question that Walsall, in Staf-
fordshire, stand part of schedule D,
Mr. CROKER wished to know from the Noble Lord
opposite (Russell) upon what ground Walsall had been
placed in schedule D, as it came under none of the rules
hitherto adopted by Ministers with respect to putting
places in that schedule.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that the borough of
Walsall was situated in a very important part of the
country, and it appeared to his Majesty's Government to
be a borough that would furnish representatives to that
House highly important to the country.
Mr. CROKER said that if they did no; touch, they
certainly were very near. He had endeavoured to mea-
sure the distance, and in one point could perceive no dis-
tance. In his opinion, if they must se.ect a district in
that neighbourhood for representation, Walsall, with its
foreign, was not the fittest for selection ; and, in order to
show that, he begged to call the attention of the Com-
mittee to a cluster of boroughs that lay in a nook by them-
selves, and which seemed to him to have a far prior claim
to representation. The places that he referred to were
Darlaston, Wednesbury, West Bromwich, and Tipton ;
and these altogether did not cover a larger space of ground
than the proposed Walsall district, for they were all within
one, two, and two and a half miles of each other. He
begged leave to state particularly the population of these
places, in order that Staffordshire and the country in
general might know the cat eless sort of principle on which
this Bill was framed. Darlastoa, accurdieg to the re-
turns, had a population of 6,647 ; Wednesbury a popular
tion of 8.437 ; West Bromwic.i a population of 15,3e7,
and Tipton a population of 14.952, making altogether a
population of upwards of 43,000 inhabitanttia—(Hear)—
within a circle of five miles in diameter ; whereas \YAWI
extended five miles in one direction, and three miler in the
other, and had only a population of 15,000.—(Hear.) In
order to see what really was the fair condition and
station of Walsall, he had taken a list of twenty-six
boroughs, and made a calculation upon their population
and assessed taxes, according to the plan which Lieutenant
Drummond had laid down. And now he really hardly
thought the Committee would believe him, that out of these
26 places it turned out that Walsall and Whitby held the
lowest places of all. He would, however, state the now.
her that these 26 boroughs would hold in the scale, ac-
cording to Lieut. Drummond's plan, in order that the
House might be satisfied of the fact, though he would not
(as Lieut. Drummond had said that he thought it hettet-
to do) omit the ten lowest boroughs, as not worthy of
mention. No ; he would begin with the very o'd Saturn
of the whole 26 ; and that Old Sarum was Walsall. He
begged further to say, that in these calculations he had
proceeded upon the documents furnished to the House by
the Noble Lords themselves, and, therefore, of course there
could be no doubt that they were perfectly correct.—(A
laugh.) This was the order in which they would stand,
together with their relative value :
Walsall
Whitby
Ely
Yeovil .......... ............ 1365
Stourbridge
Warminster
Alnwick
South Shields
Newbury
Congleton
Bromsgrove
Penzance
Stockton on Tee 5...... 1707 CI oydon
1 'ibis, thco, who the eituotivii held by Witlaall as CQUa.•

putt! w:th the list of boroughs. But the Noble Lord
would perhaps seply,- that the neighbourhood had been
added to Walsall ; and therefore it was not fair to take
the borough alone in this calculation. But if so, he would
ask whether none of the places in the list be had just read
had neighbourhoods? He bad looked a little into that
question too, and he ft iund that if the neighbourhood of
Croydon was taken, the population would amount to
20,000; if Margate and Ramsgate were united (and thee
were only two miles apart), the population would be
20,000 ; and if the neighbourhood of Kingston-on-
Thames was taken, the population would amount to
18,000. He would now call the attention of the Corn.
mittee to Kidderminster, and tell them how the Govern-
ment had acted in that instance. According to the return
made by the Commissioners, Kidderminster, with a part
of the foreign, was to constitute a borough of 16,000 in-
habitants ; so that, in this case. the Government clearly
recognised the distinction between the befaligh and the
foreign, and did not lamp the whole within the word
" parish," as in the case of Walsall. But the case did not
end here. Let them look at Doncaster : that town, accord
ing to the return, contained 10,893 inhabitants; but in
addition to the town of Dancaster, there was an outskirt
called the Soke of Doncaster, which was certainly quite as
much a part of the town as the foreign was in the cases of
Walsall, Reigate, and Kidderminster, being a sort of outly
lag district. over which the borough, he believed, exercised
some sort of jurisdiction ; the Soke of Doncaster con.
tained a population of from 1,300 to 1,700 inhabitants;
but it had been very properly excluded ; and that perhaps
MI the very reason why Doncaster had not been selected
as one of the enfranchised boroughs. But if the matter
was merely taken as a parochial question, he could cite
numerous towns where portions of the parish had been
deemed inadmi.sible—such as Frome, Clithero, Guilford,
and others; but perhaps the strongest of all thesecases was
Chatham, to which a portion of the parish of Gillingham
was annexed, while another portion—for no reason in the
weal that he could understand—w is discarded : and yet,
97tth all these examples of their own making staring them
in the face, the Ministers still insisted, in the case of
W on infringing all their own rules, for the sake of
extending the franchise of a place, the claim of which
was infinitely inferior to that of many of the places which
he h id already specified.
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY really did not know whe-
ther he was in his senses when he heard the Right Hon.
Gen lemon opposite talking as he did about the borough of
Wal,all, a place which, he thought, he had known for so
many years, and in the neighbourhood of which he had
resided for the greater part of his life. If he could depend
neon the evidence of his own senses, he should say that
`,Valsa.l was the true rural district that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had on a former night represented it—nothing
like the deserted village of Bilston, with the suburb of
Sedgley—he would look in vain for a deserted village
. there—he would see no " Sweet Auburn" there—no bub-
bling brooks, unless those of boiling water issuing from
the steam-engines. He begged to assure the House that
it was a great diiatake to suppose that the foreign of `Val.
sail was distinct from the borough for any other purpose
than for the imposition of poor-rates. He would. conti-
dently repeat, that no truth could be more easy of proof than
that the foreign and township of Walsall were perfectly
identical. Not only was Walsall populous to the extent he
had statt,d, but he was enabled to say that it was a thriving
t twn, and one which could be shown to possess more
respectability than any other town in the neighbourhood.
M. CROKER said a few words in explanation, as did
Sir C. WETHERELL against the motion.
Mr. GEORGE BANKES expressed his intention of
persevering in the amendment, of which he had given
notice, to substitute the Isle of Purbeck for Walsall.
There was not one of the reasons which he had
that night heard given which did riot appear to
him strong in favour of the claims of Purbeck,
and weak and insufficient for those of Walsall.
Purbeck was twelve miles long, and seven broad. It was
like the Isle of Wight, though not so large. To give it a
Member would be strictly conformable to the principles of
the Bill, which had in several cases added places to
boroughs to enable them to keep their Members. The
population of Purbeck was nearly 7,000, which was more
than several places which, under the Bill, would return
two Members. He should move that Purbeck be substi-
tute I for Walsall.
Mr. CROKER said, if this amendment should be ne-
gatived, he should still he at liberty to move that Toxteth
Park or Merthyr Tydvil, or some other of the large unre-
presented towns, be substituted for Walsall.
Mr. G. BANKES dial not wish to interfere with his
Right Han. Friend, and would content himself by nega-
tiving the original motion in the first instance.
Mr. LITTLETON expressed his surprise that it should
be proposed to take a Member from Walsall and give it to
a place in a county more gorged with Members than any
other. Dorsetshire would have one Member to eleven
thousand inhabitants, while Yorkshire had only one to
Chitty-six, and Cheshire only one to thirty-three thousani.
He could assure his Right Hon. Friend that he was quite
mistaken in supposing that the foreign of Walsall was
not part of the boa ough. Walsall was said to have only
6,000 people, but in fact it was considerably more. In
point of population it was superior to Ashton and Whitby ;
but in respect to 10/, houses, it was superior to Bury, and
several other towns. la point of fact, it was a thriving,
flourishing, and wealthy town.
Mr. C. PELHAM said a few words, which were in-
audible in the g dlervs
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said it might he
true that Walsall was a flourishing town, but it was not
equal to Merthyr Tydvil. He contended that a Member
ought rather to begiven to Glamorgan than Staffordshire.
Mr. LITTLETON explained.
Mr. TYNTE said a few words.
The Committee tilers divided on the question, that Wal-
sall stand part of the schedule—
Ayes

Noes
:Majority
On re-entering the gallery we found Mr. CROMER on
his legs, and the question before the House was, that
Whitby should stand part of the Bill. The Right Hon.
Gentleman said that Whitby was not entitled, either
by population or wealth, to a Member. Other towns
to which Representatives had been given had been in-.
creasing in population, but Whitby was—he said it with
regret—in a state of decay. After the recent decision,
he would not trouble the Committee to divide, though
it was a strong case.
Mr. SCHONSWAR contended that Whitby was fully
entitled to a Member on account of its connection with
an important branch of our shipping trade.
Mr. WRIGHTSON also contended that the import-
ance of the shipping trade of Whitby, although not so
great as formerly, entitled it to a Representative. It had
above 10,000 inhabitants, and be believed there were be-
tween three and four hundred 101. houses.
Mr. GOULBURN certainly did not expect, among
the many it:consistencies and anomalies he had beard of
in connection with the Bill, to find it at last argued that a
place was entitled to a Representative because its coin-
merce and population were declining,—(Hear, bear.)
There was not a single point urged in favour of the en-
franchisement of Whitby which did not apply in the
strongest manner against the disfanchisement of Dart-
mouth.

After a few words from Lord Mones:Tif, in support of
the claims of Whitby,
Sir E. SUGDEN contended, also, that they were about
to enfranchise 'Whitby on precisely the same grounds as
those on which they disfranchised Dartmouth. The po-
pulation of Whitby would be too small for their purpose
if they did not cross the river.: put what then ? They
refused to step across the river to save Dartmouth, while
they were compelled to pass it in order to give a kind of
claim to Whitby.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the plain reason for giving
Whitby a Member was, that they considered it of import-
ance as connected with the shipping trade; and he would
remind the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that when
the former Bill was introduced, he came down to the
House and complained of the ignorance which the Go-
vernment had mani ested with respect to the shipping in.
terest, when they omitted, in their division of the repre-
sentation, to give a Member to the flourishing town of
Whitby.—(Hear.),
Sir R. PEEL despaired of doing anything with the
case of Whitby, because it was rosily so bad a one, that
nothing which could now he urged would make it worse.
(Hex, hear.) Supposing thy were to take Lieutenant
Drummond's calculations_and surely they were as good
for the purposes of enfranchisement as for disfrani.-11;tw-
rnent—they would find that of twenty-eight places which
could claim a Member, the towns of Walsall and Whitby
would stand last on the last.--(Hear, hear.) if they
were fully convinced of the necessity of giving due repre-
sentation to the shipping interest, what would they say to
the giving of throe Members to Liverpool ?—(Hear, hear.)
be somewhatmore consistent
That would, in his opinion,
than the conferring a franchise on filthy. One of the
reasons stated by some Hon, Members in favour of Whit-
by, was its connection with the fishing trade. He (Sir
R. Peel) thought this plea had undoubtedly some foun-
dation ; for in settling the "boundaries of the town, he
perceived that the Commissioners had added a pretty large
slice of-the German Ocean.—(Heir, and a laugh).
its
claim portion of the ocean undoubtedly strengthened
claim to represent the fishing interest --(A laugh.)
Vat if population or taxaticn gave; a right to re-

presentation, what did they say to Doncaster with
10,000 inhabitants ? There was no place, indeed,
which could be named more deatituts of clairns
thou Whithy and he knew nu reason for the
Noble Lord's persisting in his proposition, unless it was
that, having placed it in the Bill some six months ago, he
thought it a pity to deprive it now of what he considered
almost a vested right.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He thought
the best thing, however, that the Noble Lord could do
with respect to Whitby would be, without any reference
to Toxteth or Merthyr Tydvil, to allow Whithy to retire
with a good grace from the position in which he had
placed it.—(Hear. )
Lord ALTHORP again reminded the Right Hon.
Baronet, that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for
Aldborough (Mr. Croker) had given the Government
credit for committing an error when they omitted Whitby
in the former Bill. There were three reasons for giving
a Member to Whitby. The first was, its connexion with
the shipping interest ; the second, that there was no other
represented place near it; and the third, that it was in a
part of Yorkshire which required better representation.
With respect to the objection in the case of Doncaster and
others, he contended, that in manufacturing and com-
mercial towns mere payments of assessed taxes were nut
always to be taken as a fair criterion.—( Hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN agai❑ called the attention of the
Committee to the inconsistency of the Government in
passing the Esk for the sake of Whitby, wbi!e they so
steadily resisted the proposal for taking both sides of the
Dart, in computing the population and importance of
Dartmouth.

Mr. HODGSON maintained the claims of Whitby to
representation.
Mr. CROKER said one of the most extraordinary cir.
cumstances attending this extraordinary measure was,
that, taking the Noble Lord's own figures, it appeared that
out of twenty-six places having a population above a cer-
tain number, and yet unrepresented, the lowest and the
least important in the scale were Walsall and Whitby.
Mr. STRICKLAND asserted the claims of Yorkshire
to a much more extensive representation than that which
it would enjoy under the Bill.
Mr. HUNT wished to know why Doncaster was not to
have a share in the representation ?
The Committee then divided on the question, that
Whitby stand part of the schedule—
For the motion
Against it l2O
Majority --101

.
On our re-admission to the gallery, we found the
CIIAIRMAN reading schedule E. The propositions for—.
Amlych, Holyhead, and Llangefni sharing with
Beaumaris ;

Aberystwith, Lampeter, and Adpar sharing with
Cardigan ;
Llanelly sharing with Caermarthen ;
Pwliheli, Nevin, Conway, Bangor, and Cricceith
sharing with Caernarvon ;
Ruthin, Holt, and Town of Wrexham sharing with
Der, high ;
Rhyddlan, Overton, Caerwis, Caergwrley, St. Asaph,
Ho'ywell, and Mold sharing with Flint—were agreed to
without any observation.
On the motion for Cowbridge, l‘ferthyr Tydvil, Aber-
dare, and Llantrissent sharing with Cardiff,
A conversation took place, in which Lord James Stuart,
Lord Granville Somerset, Lord Al•horp, Mr. Knight,
&c., participated; but the hubbub in the House was so
great that we were unable to collect its tendency.
After same conversation, schedule E was agreed to.
The next question was, That Cheshire stand part of
schedule F.

Mr. PIGOT proposed that Lieut. Drummond's system
should also be adopted with respect to counties.
Mr. LITTLETON said it could not conveniently be
adopted, as some counties had a population almost exclu-
sively rural, and other counties a population in which the
manufacturing interests exceedingly preponderated.
Colonel SIBTHORPE made some observations, which
were not intelligible in the gallery. He was frequently
interrupted by strange noises, and concluded his addiess by
stating that, under all the circumstances, he would proceed
no further ; and, alluding to the conduct of the Hon.
Members who had so strangely given utterance to their
dissent from his opinions, observed that—
" Want of decency is want of sense."
_ _ _ . _ _

The Honourable Member resumed his seat amidst loud
cheers.

Lord ALTHORP vindicated the principle on which
3finisters had proceeded in regard to counties.
Mr. CROKER contended that the population was a
very imperfect test of importance.
The motion was then put and carried.
The CHAIRMAN put the question that Cornwall be
included, and it was carried.
It was also ordered, without debate, that Cumberland,
Derbyshire, Devonshire, Durham, Essex, Gloucestershire,
and Kent, sta❑d in schedule F.
Hampshire was included, after a few words from Mr.
GOULBURN.

The following counties were als ordered to be inser-
ted :—Lancashire, Leicestershire, Norfolk, Northumber-
land, Northampton, Nottinghamshire, Shropshire, Somer.
setshire, Staffordshire, Suffolk, Surrey, Sussex, Warwick,
Wiltshire, and Worcestershire.

The Committee then proceeded to schedule F 2, refer-
ring to counties whose population entitled them to return
three Members each. Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, and
Cambridgeshire were included without any discussion.
On the question that Dorsetshire be added,
Mr. BEST stated his opinion that Dorsetshire was bet-
ter entitled to four Members than Cumberland.

Mr. W. BANKES also supported this view of the
subject.
Lord ALTHORP and Lord J. RUSSELL replied that
Dorsetshire, with Bridport, Poole, and Wareham, under
this Bill, had more than it. share of Members.
It was then agreed that Dorsetahire should be inserted,
as well as Herefordshire, Hertfordshire, Monmouthshire,
and Oxfordshire.

The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to read the clause refer-
ring to schedule G ; when
Mr. CROKER protested against the principle of this
schedule, as one of the most mischievous in the Bill, giving
to the electors in boroughs the right of voting as free-
holders for the counties.

Alter a conversation across the table, in which Lord
ALTHORP and Lord J. RUSSELL and others took part, the
motion was ►greed to.
The following places were then voted part of the
schedule :—Carmarthen, Chester, Coventry, Gloucester,
Kingston-upon-Hull, Lincoln and the parts of Lindsay,
London, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Worcester, York and
Ansty.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP,
The CHAIRMAN reported progrt•ss, and obtained leave
to sit again to-morrow (this day.)
In Luis, er to a question from an Hon. Member, Lord
ALTHORP was not prepared to say, with certainty, on
what day the Ref am Bill would be read a third time ;
but he hoped that the third reading would he on Monday
SUGAR DUTIES.

Mr. BERNAL brought up, the report of the Com-
mittee of Ways and 3feans.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS was desirous that the Noble
Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would state the
nature of the plan Ministers had in contemplation for the
relief of the West Indian colonies.

Lord ALTHORP was not prepared to detail the mea-
sures to which the Hon. Member alluded.
Mr. BURGE and Mr. GOULBURN were desirous that
the Noble Lord would give the Huu•e some intimation of
the nature of the measures which the Government had in
contemplation.
Mr. R. GORDON hopedsome relief would speedily be
.Zorded ; and trusted that the Noble Lord would take the
earliest opportunity of stating the nature and extent of that
relief.

The Marquis of CI-1.4.ND0S begged the NobTe Lord's
attention to the late hour of the night, and the thinness of
the House, requesting him not to proceed under such cir-
cumstances. .

Mr. IRVING said that any measure of the Noble
Lord's, accompanied with such conditions as had been
stated, woul.l be rejected by the colonists with scorn.
The Report was then brought up and agreed to.
The House next resolved itself into a Committee on the
Dublin Coal Bill. After some amendments had been
rgrted to, the House resumed, and the report was ordered
to be received on Monday.
The other Orders at the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter before Three o'Clock,
to to-morrow (this day).