The Sun.
London, England, 1835-02-27 00:00:00

,rhe HOUSE OF LORDS, FEB. 26.
three ~,larl of SHAFTESBURY sat for the Lord Chancellor at
flieve achy when the Duke of Northumberland and other
rs_yv. took the oaths, and subscribed the Parliamentary roll,
,7, e which the House adjourned during pleasure.
,fteiln_LOßD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the w001.,..,:.........--,-.__
.,..,:.........--,-.__ " five o'clock, and announced to the House that the as to the nature and extent of the existing abuses, that tile
trdsavei
.ith white staves had waited upon his Majesty with means necessary to correct them, might be safely appliod.
ass._ nuaresa of that House, to which his Majesty had For this purpose his Majesty last year intended that
--vst pleased to return the following most gracious 'insWer • the report should be laid before the House. 1i is
answer: g Lords, I thank you for your loyal
mid dutiful Majesty had not been enabled to• perform that
the ass a Address, and I receive with great satisfaction promise, and as within a few weeks or days from that time he
in
all *use nee, that you will afford me your cordial co-operation would be enabled to perform that promise, and as it was men-
measures measures as will tend to promote the happiness and tioned in the speech from the throne of 1834, it
The
of my subjects."
40Dukeof was essential that it should also be mentioned in the speech
Petitions so RICHMOND then presented a number of of this year, anti that the reason should be given fur
that tomorrowii mplaining of local taxation. He also gave notice not performing it. Had his Majesty acted otherwise, it
ofunneeeasaryoahtehswould present a petition on the abolition might be inferred that it was not the intention of his
Lord Majesty's Government to communicate the report, and
tinder th
ELL E NBC). ROUGH gave notice that to-morrow' lie of course not to act upon it.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
would bring in a bill of indemnity for certain officers acting However illegal some parts of the Commission might be, that
the Go 8 Indian Government. The laws upon that subject, was no reason why they should not avail themselves of the in-
ent of India, were so widely spread over the formation collected. Some bodies had resisted the enquiry
Statineve=.`"?
ought to be done
that it was almost impossible to know what of so inquisitorial a nature ; but many bodies had submitted,
by one or other. He had taken steps for the and a great mass of evidence had been obtained. This evi-
t7itso lidivaotion of the whole of the Acts of Parliament which he dence would receive the fullest consideration of his Majes-
eo7,,7o_ uld soon be done. In the meantime he moved for ty's Government. It was unnecessary to lay down the principle
tir. ! certain letters written by Sir Charles Metcalf rela- upon which the Government would proceed in the contradic-
the subject, in order to explain it.—Ordered. tion of that report. He would, however, tell the Noble and
0t• ThepaLit.;_strl of RADNOR gave notice of a motion for a series Learned Lord and his friends, that both as respects this Corn-
Titte'` Earleative to the oaths taken in the Universit mission and all others, his Majesty's Government would not
which he uef MULG RAVE gave notice that to-morrow, consider it to be eithertheir interest or their duty to maintain
sante
__
es9olerstood would be a convenient day, he would put any one recognized abuse.—(loud cheers)—and that their oh-
con
e.r ti ns to the Noble Secretary for the Colonies, ject and determination was to correct all abuses.—( Cheers. )
follrlin3 some measures taken for carrying into effect the Lord PLUNKETT observed that if the Commission was
'Quid x abolishing slavery in the West Indies--his question illegal, it was impossible that it could be acted upon for ?Ity-
ate more particularly to the Island of Jamaica. useful purpose; because, if the allegation be true, it is an
CORPORATION COMMISSION. inquisitorial commission, calling upon individuals to make returns
Lord BROUGHAM
upon oath of the nature of their property, in ordei that
whim, , said he had a motion to make, to
I ret7.2le did not think there could be any objection—it was the abuses connected with:them .miglst be corrected, and urn of all the Commissions that passed the Great Seal in the parties offending visited with punishment. Many in-
eon 1828, 1829, and 1830. dividuals had submitted to that inquiry, but it was cor-
relative ti,..BoLthLeEeNlpßeOnsße.o UG H said something across the table trary to every principle of justice if the Crown (after having
made the discovery of its illegality)—it would be most unjust
tie!, 7 "ROUG HA M said he had taken that into considera- and contrary to right and reason, if the Legislature would
atany2awas the last to move for anything that he did not think avail itself of that information so illegally acquired. It would be
ltest4Y necessary. That was the first time, however, he had base to do so. He did not 'pretend to be acquainted with the
his _ t
.at objection made against the Commissioners, to which question of the legality or illegality of that Commission ;
aliztllon referred. There was one, the Law Commission, to nor did he know whether the opinion of the Noble and
leN .° was a party, and must take the responsibility— Learned Lord opposite, or the Noble and Learned Lord on the
fos iits,ve, however, not rainisterial—for he had moved woolsack was the more correct. This, however, he would say,
deue in the other House.—( Hear.) It had certainly that if the Commission was liable to the imputation of illega-
lise tlyallinth good. However, he was most anxious to lity, there was not a particle of the information acquired under.
Corre!arn, because when he saw the notice taken of the it that. could be made the foundation of any judicial
had fiction Commission in the King's speech, and after what proceeding. Indeed he did not see how that could be pos_.
leak en from the Noble and Learned Lord on the wool- sible. Every-person who knew any thing of the practice
tial wits, t 0 its illegality, he expected to be impeached, observed in courts of justice must be aware that if in-
opinion bed to be prepared.—( Hear, hear.) After the formation be extracted under the pressure of very high
was ' ellreased from the Woolsack so strongly, he certainly authority, that inlormation could not be acted upon for the
the el‘toirPosed to !tee by the King's Speech that the report Of purpose of visiting the party with the consequences which that
Themstnission was to be acted upon. information might entail on them. If then the measures to he
Lord "CiRO C HAN-fiELL OR said the Noble and Learned adopted were to be grounded upon the answers so given, the
etatte"'as wrong in his inferssnces. It did not follow that be- public might put it out of
withtheir minds that any judicial pro-
Spe..traention was made ‘-t* 'he Commission in the King's ceeding would take place respect to these Corporations.
hets;:•" its report was to obet.acbd on. It would be laid- The Duke of WELLINGTON said that no doubt it
Lord the Legislature. Neither was the Noble and Learned would be impossible to found any judicial proceeding upon
ever"..eetrect in stating that he (the Lord Chancellor) had questions illegally put. Certain powers had been granted to
sain4tated it to be illegal. What he said was, that it con- the Commissioners to ask questions, and call for papers and re-
-4ersow,
„ which could not legally be given--which were cords. Some persons had refused to do so, and others had given
ttp.,, Y illegal
,• ; he was of the same opinion sill, and chal- up their papers and records,
that or the other
and answered such questions as were
pro;tthe Noble and Learned Lord on a future (occasion to put to them. The question was whether
The°Y law that he was wrong. House of Parliament would proceed to legislate upon the Re-
the Id! arquis of LANSDOWNE said that, in his opcoion, port of that Commission. The Noble Lord supposed that they
tiled i''' le and Learned Lord below him was perfectly jCs- were going to pronounce judgment ; but such was not the case.
lilltha in
fears.—( Hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord. What they were called upon to do was to legislate on that in-
totai„"oolsack had found out, at a very late hour, that the formation,_ if they found that it had been properly acquired.
Ittotiplsiun was so decidedly' illegal, and he sed such It bad been stated on a former night that certain powers had
4le ; language upon the matter,bthat impeachment was been btriven to that Commission, which should not have been
granted,
~! least that the late Ministers could expect. but
.as he (the Duke of Wellington) had never seen
Ala a LORD CHANCELLOR, in answer to the observa- that Comoussion he would pass no opinion upon it until the
is th;isde by the Noble Marquis would say, that he never was subject came regularly before the House.
thee h 1-I°l-ise when the Commission was under discussion, Earl RAWsIOR observed that the Noble Duke had stated
tint I never heard it even mentioned in the House, that lie had neverseen the Commission, and, therefore, could
tars tt had never seen the Commission, and that it was only give no opinion upon it. But the question was, whether their
ltso4t & to
report that he had formed his opinion with respect Lordships should see it at all or-not. He had a distinct re-
keit .4ejer was mentioned in his presence except the other collection that the Noble and Learned Lord on the Wool-
%l t:nen Ms attention was called to it by the Noble sack had stated, on a former occasion, that the Com-
Ithailled the Chief Baron of the Exchequer. It was mission was illegal.. If so, nobody ought to know any-
-144 he had had a conversation with that Neale and thing of the information so illegally obtained.—( Hear, hear.)
toe,. Lord upon the subject and after that he came The Noble and Learned Lord said he never saw the commis-
edv- eeadusion that the particular powers to which he had sion, but still he pronounced it to be legal.
tiNierv. were illegal. How far the Commissioners had acted The LORD CHANCELLOR said—l may be supposed
reikrtwese proceedings could not be ascertained until the to have been rash, because I have stated that I have
"ld,nwas laid on the table of the House, together with the never seen the Commission, and yet have pronounced upon
tioii, ee upon which it was founded ; when that was done the its legality.---( Hear, hear.) But the knowledge - I have
ttlq lei would be in a condition to form a correct judgment of derived of that Commission was from a communication made
1,4,41itY or illegality of the commission. ato me in a conversation which I had with the Noble
1/41,ire,t' BROUGHAM confessed himself at a loss how to and Learned Lord.--(Hear.) If I am right, it must
N 8 4the _Rouse. He had never witnessed a scene like the
as to, depend upon the information and knowledge so derived. The
o` sesisOr at all resembling it, except the first part of opinion of that Noble and Learned Lord was required by
s's I
wl • s dthe before 1 •t s
tat tzid ti_ which wa: *etc . night it....—,.. Cheers.) some persons, who had laid a copy of the Commission
alaphtieir Lorosai„g believe it, that the Lord Chancellor,beforetheNoble and.
...
Learned Lord. In consequence of being
t,„,_ snsso s? of the kine, '
''sos estjude r • •sdom the highest minister of justice, so consulted, he directed his attention to the subject, and there,
Csstria ',awns in England ~,,:vro similar to those who ()reign
in f • is no man in the empire who is more capable of forming
413 Mac: "ere called the Minister' sat' Justice, could get up in a correct opinion upon such a subject.—( Hear.) He stated
ess t iii that House upon a so 'awn debate upon an Ad- to me what that opinion was, and was I rash then in assuming
"Pos ° the Crown ' h orit having been moved that the statement of the Noble Lord was correct ? Was
%,, th,t Address own ; and an Amendm. •
••
hispredecessor in I wrong then, when I found that it was in accordance with my
N;:t, eiGe., and being agains,
own opinion, to declare that ? The Commission in its
attune, and his
lie;ientglie;, "'IT&
_with the same high ,eut:
silt
4 .ither more nor less than' . a Charge of original form did- not contain the particular clause
the in 'host the Great Seal to a Com nl3ssion which to which I alluded, and he told me so, and I ask whether
d I was rash in confirming his opinion ? Now, my Lords, with
1' it st Material respects illegal—( Hear •bear—an
o'l't Ives was intended—scimethin like sa
threat of that respect to the rest, when we came into office, we had reason to
tl'ecee . 'told o by the and Learned L vo.—that believe the enquiry under that Commission had terminated.
, 4 di4,l
~ out Noble o.
ihtessd tl.anould be taken in consequence. He for o ne, till Did we call upon the Commissioners to go on?—No ; but we
~ [ sue, ue statements of the Noble Lord, never anticipotc,d called for the report. Our intention is to examine that report,
illPtesh `1 4 course was to be adopted from the words in tce and act upon the evidence. therein which. has been legally
4t h 'and when h (Lord B)• •
L e ti e. stated,mmoving or the returns,
f i taken. It is our intention to pursue the enquiry, for the purpose
a correcting any abuses that may exist in Corporations.
ittettrsedunderstood,or from the statements of the Noble and
To•hing that I said the other night is inconsistent with this
thi tieht. d on the Woolsack, that something like an
' se All I said was, that until that was made, it
4 foment Was intended, that Noble and Learned Lord 13°1)16 ' • asible for the report
Peand and the government to adopt any specific
th set,
,10thy i his own statements' had been misunderstood,
14 Ittehti isi out no promise, nor even a pledge, or intimated Lordmeastu.e•
BROUGHAM would say nothing in reference
Wes in" except that of laying the report before parliament, to the i'ttstructions or information which the Noble
occasion he (Lord
Ilia's not thole judgment of all their Lordships whether that Lord had received. On the. first.
B•) had expeasiencecl a grievous disappointment ; on the second
Ilt. 141.7 Lo the
extent of the Noble Lords' gloss upon •
ii,satsed ,oi the King's speech. But then theagreeable Noble and an a.
INtppointment, and on the third a total disappoint-
eCs '-'ord hadsaid, far from • '
Am., std had so. giving up the. illegality of ment. In the fillit place the Noble and Learned Lord declared
merely that the report shad been, or would be, ieceived; in the
hail expect so f.ar from !dm,itting that which everyone
second, that something would be done upon the production of
its cacti ited Ss'
.? seeding the King s Speeli, found the report
aeels, ';'it, that there was no foundation for the charge of that. report • but upon the third case, the whole resolved itself
id, 414,11 illegal. The Honourable and Learned Lord into an impossibility' that something might perhaps be done.
\ tlillu e would pray their Lordships to consider if the like But it turned out that the opinion given by him, and which
ies°llls tsci 7se'er seen in any Court or any place before. The had been alluded to by the Noble and Learned Lord on the
put- to him as counsel, in
ItZits into '''',arned'Lord said, bringing none of his judicial woolsack, was in reply to questions
upon byhis As
it "4/ ill his legislative proceedings he was rea to prove a brief with a fee marked it
Os is 'Val inThe' Noble Lord h d • 1 r tained —( Hear, hear, hear.) That was
~,, •is
the opinion
1, is atimoion that it was illegal—be had stated the particu- of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack. but it
tank ach, it was illegal. and it was no less than a most im. was also stated that the circumstance upon which it was
hktkoperrte`ut as regarded the law affecting the rights formed was, that he had received information to the effect
do ottittleodf individuals and of corporations. That might of an alteration in the original draft of the Commission.
ti his o
him,
Lord
tto his utter astonishment, that very It might perhaps happen that inquiry would be made
s•- on. Learned avowed to-night that he had given it into the manner by which that information was acquired.
alttrtistfain,',O,n the night before last, that the Commission was Access must have been had to the records in the Home Office,
t,(lire "legal, without ever having read the commission it- and search must have been Made in its archives. The draft
liojsl'ascst!")—so that it was not the opinion of the Noble and of the Commission was issued from that office, and he (Lord
kj-lofire °RI himself, but it was the opinion which he had got Brougham) did not shrink from any responsibility that
tjeabescond-hand. He had consulted one judge, who was then might be attached to it. He trusted the House would take
s 7 oostur, of the Lordships' House, but then at the bar, and measures to enquire into this breach of
their Soother authority
IP 1 "eh
tit, t , , and who—for ought their Lordships or any would be set at nought, broken through, and set at defiance'.
s 4 t,,,i, Vletv—had never seen a word in the report any more He had got the fact, and he was determined to make use of
N,tekt-3, noble and Learned Lord, because when people were it :.there were clerks employed in the public offices under,
tilt tau stigmatise anything as being unlawful, they did not the. late Administration. who were playing the
with
of
ki %tit. `ik about ccming to a hasty conclusion, so that the their enemies, and in constant. communication with them.
hiklit be'es 0\ " the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack It was important to the public service that this matter should
tititelt. •Ilist as
,much in the dark on the subject as he was be enquired into, and that also it should be seen whether the
11 he has Hear, ,and laughter.) Then the Learned Lord Commission was illegal or not. He ( Lord Brougham)
INtitie.whe never cld the commission, that he was never in the. never objected to the inquiry. He admitted that he was
did
'l4 q It la n the legalit v was disputed, and that he had never the person. who advised the issuing. of it, and he
at,teoside4stioned in that" House, . y
nevertheless he did not deny, not shrink from the responsibility of having done so.—( Hear,
4 t,(3sea "e deny that he knew it was the subject o" i hear.) If he had advised any thing that was illegal, no
''tit 4.11 e :Y---( Hear, hear.)' He knew it was controverted ; man would more cheerfully abide by the consequences of his
r;:' d'%, that it had bee.s the subject of discussion act. He formed the opinion which was referred to upon state-
-I.b,ll'ata°s ;he knew. that inftnae had been taken, and that ments made to him by counsel. If that was illegal, it
tarried Vt had acted on those opinions yet the Noble and clearly was the
.duty. of the Learned upon it
the
~th , ord had allowed for 3 months' since he had taken the Woolsack to advise his Majesty not p act upon , it. He
t`44terZCommissioners to go on acting under a Commission should not have allowed it to go
.forw.ard ; he should
it:akiistheY, illegal," and also allowed his Majesty—and this not have put men to the torture, which it brought upon
Ste L•oras. Pclint to which he wished to calf the attention of some, when he
Thetisha believed it to be from the begin
qtt ktk witsiillPs----he allowed his :11- ajesty to refer to that Corn- ning illegal. ubject- was one which should engage
Ilk !tikkld out ever • • •
, 1.14 4,_ having read it, without
it,havin.g made up the attention of both Houses of Parliament. It was pecu.
‘4lht hsd the subject from the perusal of without ever liarly interesting to the
public at large, and the country gene-
tittsit-soit,the means of forming an opinion worth one rally looked with anxiety to the subject ; and it was now too
ilts' 596'11 he had pursued a course which would lead bad, that, when nothing specific with regard to the intentions
4;' stesed is:nisei' out of a 1 000 all over the country, of Government was mentioned in the Speteh from the Throne,
ttl:'.4 thte i z‘nig's Speech, to imagine' that those who had that the country would have nothing but a declaration of the
'l4 ''ss 'lulling of that Speech, had never considered that opinion of Government that the Commission was altogether
lltic, a flaw, or the least illelitv or the' least taint of illegal.
,fl-,,,t1111e Nt'obl any ' 'affecting'that -"nmmission. Lord WHARNCLIFFE said kind whatever, la
in the Noble and Learned
t,asti of hi L!,and Learned Lord would sac was that, the Lord had been told over and over again that the evidence
jesty s Speech, when the
"h.be 8 wia* ' report came irt, it taken by the Commissioners was first of all to be laid
h4at'ta (1 eOrnwunicated to the Parliament. It seemet.! before the Houses of Parliament, and the Report . acted
hktilet.‘.:4°i'd I.i.rougham) if there were some reason— 000 n, as far as they possibly could—the Ministry
it 4 .1,4 consequence of something that was said in were most anxious to correct all abuses which were found to
tikl)esii• the other House of Parliament—to make exist. The charges had been made, and that was the answer
iti ' sojnt to give a somewhat stingy assurance 'they had to give ;it wouldgo forth to the country, and that wouldi
itla that' and th-erefore the Noble Lord said that he had decide the question between them. As to the question of the. e-
It 'eitt at When the result of the report was laid before gality of the inquisitorial powers given by it, they, in point of
k1:110„ ,it Was the intentionof his Majesty's
-at to
h, t ,seelings upon it. been done under them; but if so, then the question
,e, bade
_t 1\ B 0 RO UGH said that he did not apprehend would arise; whether they could act upon evidence taken
the direction of those powers. In point of fact,
-4.. ttE ,f.
.her said that there was anything_ illegal in the under
, Ives
an Commission. What he had said was, that the einestion had been brought on by the Noble and Learned
,I4'sstlaitiB 44 illegalit in the grant to the Commissioners Lord for the mere purpose of raising a doubt of the intentions
.e4s4 • Poste Y
'',,,,,ts •')
The Node and Learned Lord Chan- Learned Lord lied called them apostates, and all other tad
listlts:.d azoste competent as an man to judge of the na- names, but the Government meant to act in a bona fide way
t:il,7 its ecnrrit_of
ethe pow.ers granted to the Commissioners, with the people of England—it was the wish of Government
‘:ssteital Lert nt to give a judgnltint upon them, as the to reform the institutions of the country, so far as they could
k cli,e tlie -iied Lord, Brougham, who introduced those do so with safety, and no power on earth could make them go
IN trom thecmniission. His Majesty,
se 1
~throne in that t to his gracious one step further.
HOusro the report Lord BROUGHAM denit'd thg he had ever called the
41". °a their table, that they might form a jodoment ' Noble Lord, or any one an apostate, for i; Irf4 a hard word.
. a•

No. 13.230.