The Sun.
London, England, 1832-05-25 00:00:00

that that body were unanimous in their desire for an
eerly abolition of slavery. He knew for certain that the
Methodists, at th-eir last convocation, had *.come te
a resolution to impress upon all that hehinged to
their body the necessity of withholding their sup
port from any candid ite who Wee anxious for
die honour of a seat in that }souse, who would not first
pledge himself lt.e Vise all reasonable means to effect tbe
abolition of negro slavery, which they considered 61,
2re vest blot in the history of this country.
Mr. F. BUXTON rose to bring forward his mo-
tion with regard to the question which had lately
occupied the attention of the House, In that mo-
tion he had since the morning made an alteration
therefore it would be as well that he should at once state to
the House what the terms of his motion Were. He would
move that a select committee be appointed to report what
measures it would be expedient to take in order to abolish
negro slavery, At the earliest possible moment. Before
going into the general questi• n, he was obliged to say a
few words in answer to the chservations of the Gallant
Officer opposite—that Gallant Meriffier had stated that lie
offered thes• obsereatioes in answer to a speech which he
(Mr. F. B ) had made in that House three months ago.
Ile could have wished that the Gallant Officer hail
either been a little more rapid or a little more tardy,
for the effect now was, that his mind was taken
off the great matter which he had that evening
taken in hand, in order that he might be able to answer
what he considered a personal attack. The G rllant
Officer hail alluded to the opinions expressed by a
Reverend Prelate in the other House ; but he
(Mr. B.) hail very great reason to complain of
the conduct of that Bishop, not so much of him, as of
the Society to which he belonged, which hail been for up-
wards of 100 years proprietors and dealers in slaves itself.
An estate had been left to them for the purpose of their
ameliorating the condition of the slaves and convert-
ing them to Christianity, and he believed that at
this very time, at all events within these four years,
there was hardly a Christian in the island on which
that estate was situated. The Hon. Mem'aer then pro-
ceeded to observe, that be anticipated the success of his
motion on account of the great change which public opi-
nion hail undergone upon this question within a very
short period. He then referred to an article in a colonial
paper, in ;chid, the writer contended that Government
should take direct measures for the extinction of slavery,
by granting compensation to the planters. For his part he
had no objection to the planters obtaining what compensa-
tion they could from the Government, but he was stile that
whatever the Government might owe them, his clients,
the negroes, owed them nothing. He perfectly concurred
with the writer in the colonial paper, that the time had
arrived when it was necessary to adopt direct measures fer
the extinction of slavery. Mitigating measures had done
something towards ameliorating the condition of the negro,
but there was one feature in s'avery which mitigating mea-
sures would not touch, and it was this—that the labour
of the slave was extorted by force. His proposition was,
that the evils of slavery were of that magnitude, that we,
as Christian people, could not tolerate them, but were im-
peratively bound to get rid of them, and the system which
engendered them, at whatever cost and sacrifice. His
mind had been brought to that conclusion from the consi-
deration of two or three facts. In the first place, the de-
crease of the slave population—the excess of deaths over
births—had made a deep impression upon his mind. Un-
der a climate and a state of circumstances peculiarly fa-
vourable to the propagation of the negro race, the slave
population had decreased to the extent of n 2,000 in the
last eleven years. Another important circumstance was
the number of stripes of the cart-whip inflicted upon
slaves in the West India islands, which amounted to
.2,000,000 annually. As no record of floggings was kept
in the chartered colonies, he had formed his calculation
from the record kept in Demerara, and he had every rea-
son to believe it was perfectly correct. The Hon. Member
proceeded to make an enumeration of facts, in order to
show that the slaves in Jamaica were subjected to much
more severe treatment than the slaves in Demerara. As
he h id taken the punishments in tha latter colony as the
basis of his calculations, he conceived himself warranted
in supposing that is estimate was rather tinder than above
the mark. He then adverted to the instrument of punish-
ment, the cart-whip, the use of which he considered to-
tally inconsistent with the principles of justice and huma-
nity. On this point he would cite the authority of a de-
cided enemy to his own views,—namely, the authority of
Mr. Barrett, a planter, who declared in the House of As-
sembly in Jamaica, that 39 lashes with the cart-whip
could be rendered more excruciating than 500 stripes with
the cat-o'-nine-tails. If such were the punishments in-
flicted on the slaves, he insisted that he had a right to
designate the system as most execrable, and to call upon
his Majesty's Government to grant a Committee to consi-
der the subject. The moral degradation of the negro slaves
was likewise, in his opinion, a very cogent reason for
effecting the change he advocated. To illustrate the
depth of that degradation, he would refer to a letter of
the Hon. Member for Bramber, which he found pub-
lished among some official documents. The Honour-
able Gentleman was arguing against the admissibility
of slave evidence, and he asserted, as a reason for re•
jectine it, that not one of a thousand negroes were ca-
pable of understanding the obligation of an oath. Now
he (Mr. Buxton) begged to remark, that while there was
no objection to receive the testimony of an African so long
as lie was wild and savage, it was rejected the moment he
came under the tuition of those whose views were sup-
ported by the Hon. Gentleman. Of one thing he was
certain, that if proceedings were not taken for the rapid
extinction of slavery, the West India colonies England
could not retain. How would gentlemen propose to act
in the event of a war with France, or an insurrection of
the slaves ? With respect to the latter contingency, he
would quote the words of Jefferson, who said that he had
" thought of revolution of the slaves a thousand times,
and if it occurred lie trembled for his country, for God had
no attribute that could side with them in the struggle."—
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member concluded by moving
" That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and
report upon the measures expedient to be adopted for pro.
perly effecting the extinction of slavery throughout the
British dominions at the earliest period compatible with
the safety of all classes in the colonies."
Mr. O'CONNELL seconded the motion.

Mr. CRESSET PELHANI said, that the speech of the
Han. Member for Weymouth appeared to him diametrically
opposed to the object he desired to accomplish. He would
maintain that the sufferings of the slaves had been greatly
exaggerated, and with respect to the alleged want of ri.-
ligious instruction, he believed that there were more
Christians among the blacks than were contained in this
metropolis.--(" Hear," and a laugh.)
Mr. STRICKLAND thought, that, without some se-
rious injury to the West India proprietors, some great and
decisive measure could not be longer withheld. The Com-
mittee moved for by the Hon. Member for Weymouth
was, in his opinion, the best mode of setting about a sa-
tisfactory arrangement. He considered it desirable that
emancipation should really commence, accompanied cer-
tainly by proper precautions : but that it should not be
further delayed, nor the feelings of the people of England
any longer trifled with. He had an opportunity of ascer-
taining the sentiments of a vast number of people, and he
was justified in stating that he knew of no subject that
had awakened a higher degree of excitement in the pubic
mind than the subject before the House—excitement which
even the momentous topic of Reform had not overpowered.
He fully admitted that the West India Interests should be
as dear to England as any of the great interests of the em-
pire, but he denied the inference generally drawn from this
proposition, and he could not sanction the opinion that the
welfare of these interests was identified with the conti-
nuance of slavery. Had slavery been found at the present
day existing in any corner of Great Britain, would not the
legislature have promptly extinguished it ? and why should
a different course of action be taken with regard to the
colonies? He hoped that the House world unite as one
roan in the determination that the oppressed should go free.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS said, thatgentlemen on his side had
just grounds of complaint against the Hon. Member for
Weymouth, who had unexpectedly altered the terms of
his motion. With regard to the motion itself, he did not
think they were called upon to legislate on statements so
exaggerated as those brought forward by the Hon. Gentle-
man. The flame had passed certain resolutions in 1823,
and it was:incumbent on the Hon. Gentleman to have shown
where the intentions of the Government had been fulfilled

and where they had not been fulfilled, If the proposition
before the house were assented to, the resolutions and
Orders in Council would be of necessity superseded—an
innovation that must prove extremely detrimental to thoFc
interests which the Hon. Member had professed himself
so desirous to protect. The decrease in the slave popula-
tion had been adverted to, but he denied that the lion.
Member had fairly stated that he (Mr. Keith Douglas)
was aware lie had the means of fairly stating—namely.,
the t, ue causes of the great decrease of the slave popu
I lion in the colonies; and he would add, that he who
drew up such a statement as that laid before the Ii us,,
and presented it to the public, knew that he was not
giving an accurate representation of facts. In 1807,
those who had property in the colonies had authorised
the importation of a large number of males, but of very
tow females. M toy of these had grown old and died,
and this, in a very considerable degree accounted for the
state of society of which the Hon. Gentleman complained.
In 1817 there was, it appeared, a great excess of
males over females, but in 1827, in many of the colonies,

particularly in Barbados, there was an excess of female.
• over males. If the Hon. Member had meant to treat thi
• subject wigs fairness and candour, he would not have
omitted to stab these facts. The grounds that were ad
vanced for going into a committee appeared to him to be
• en! irely insufficient. The proper mode for the Govern-
ment to pursue was to follow up the resolution of 1823;
• or, if a committee were formed, it ought to be for the put
pose of inquiring what had !seen done in furtherance ot,
resolutions. He hoped that Ministers would feel it
to be their nuts to act up to the spirit of those
resolutions, and to preserve the prop, sty, interests,
and welfare of all parties who were interested in those
possessions.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman corn
plained that nothing had been done to ameliorate the con-
dition of the slaves. Now how stood the fact ? Mr.
(now Lord) Brougham had said, that the best that could
be done for the slaves would be to establish a system of
good slave evidence t and a measure had been introduced
for that purpose in Jam tica. The coloured population
was also highly favoured ; so much so, that he believed
• two gentlemen of colour were at present members of the
House of Assembly. He hoped that his Majesty's Go-
vernment would not lightly abandon the spirit of the re-
solutions of 1823 for the purpose of adopting a new
system.
Mr. MACAULEY said, the Hon. Gentleman who had
• just sat down had asserted that the statements of the Hon.
Mover were unsound. Now he was, on the contrary,
convinced, that the Hon. Mover's statements and his rea-
soning were indefeasible. His statement of the dispropor-
tion of the sexes, and the inference to be drawn from the
fact, were most correct. With resp.•ct to the observation
of the Hon. Member as to the increase of the slave popu.
lation in Barbados, he believed that that dircutnstance
was attributable to the restricted cultivation of sugar in
that island. In Berbice, D-rnerara, and Trinidad, there
had not only been a general decrease of the slave popula-
tion, but a very great decrease of women. The Hon.
Member seemed to think that it was quite enough if he
could prove that there was no decrease of population_.
that it was sufficient for his purpose if the population re-
mained stationary. But he would maintain, that popula-
tion, under a proper system, ought to be rapidly increasing
in (heir colonies. Those colonies were prodigal of the
unmans of subsistence,—the climate was perfectly suited to
the bi Irk inhabitants,—and therefore he would maintain,
that this ought to be the golden age of population in
those islands. Wherever any thing like such advantages
existed, they would observe the population increasing
yearly. Let them look to New South Wales—a co-
lony originally of thieves and prostitutes. There the
population was increasing in an extraordinary de-
gree, and those who went out as convicts would
be hereafter the patriarchs of a mighty empire. The
history of the United States was well known. Day
after day an immense mass of life and civilization was
advancing into the wilderness. That the population should
continue stationary was of itself an irrefragable proof of
the evils of slavery; but when the population was a'iso-
lotely decreasing, the fact was still more apparent. The
Irish peasantry increased,—the Russian boors increased.
In the Bermudas and the Bahamas, where no sugar was
manufactured, the population went on increasing. But
when they came to these sugar islands, the ordinary law
of n•tture was inverted, and, in proportion to the exuber-
ance of the soil, was the curse of suffering and of death.—
(Hear, hear.) In these islands, which were subject to
one eternal reign of terror, human life flickered and went
out like a candle in a mephitic atmosphere. What the
Spaniards did on the continent for gold, they were doing
in the islands for sugar. He should give his utmost sup-
port to the motion of his Hon. Friend.
Sir R. PEEL said, admitting that the decrease of po-
pulation was a proof of the evil complained of, still, if
they were not prepared with some practical plan for
the purpose of remedy in.. it, he conceived th it it was
useless to indulge in 'those eloquent denunciations
which they had that evening heard. The events which
had recently occurred in the West Indies, and espe-
cially in Jamaica, roust prove to them that they stood
in a very delicate situation when they were about to make
rules for the guidance of those who were at a great
distance from this country. They ought, therefore, to
act with great caution and circumspection, not only for
the good of the proprietors, but of the slaves themselves.
Nothing could he more repugnant to humanity than by
adopting resolutions which might be misunderstood, to
incite those slaves to resistance, and then, with their
artillery, to sweep them from the face of the earth. Now,
pass those resolutions as they might, if they were misin-
terpreted, and that insubordination was the consequence,
they could take but one course to vindicate the law.—
•

(Hear, hear.) The resolution before them set forth,
" 'That it is the duty of the British Legislature to put an
end to the existence of slavery throughout the dominions
of Great Britain ;" and it went on to declare, " that a
select Committee be appointed to consider and report
upon the safest and speediest mode of effecting the ex-
tinction of slavery throughout the British colonies." The
National Convention had adopted a proposition of pre-
cisely the same nature. On the sth of February, 1794.,
they declared, " that negro slavery, in all the colonies of
Franc, was abolished ;" and declared " all men of colour
domiciled within the French colonies to be entitled to the
rights of Frenchmen." A Committee was appointed "to
make a report on the measures necessary to be taken for
the total extinction of slavery." The present course was
exactly the same. It was declared that slavery should
be extinguished ; and that a Committee should he ap-
pointed to consider of the means of effecting that object.

n his opinion his Majesty's Government ought to state
the course which they meant to pursue.—( Hear, bear.)
Since the resolutions of 1823 a certain order in council
had been sent forth, which was to be enforced in the
Crown colonies ; and it was signified to those colonies
which had independent assemblies, that this order must
be accepted without condition, or they should be
subjected to higher duties than would be demanded
from those by whom it was obeyed. Up to the 14th of
March, 1832, his Majesty's Government remained deter-
mined to enforce that order. Ile therefore asked, whether
any change had since taken place in their determination?
If none had taken place, then, to agree with this motion,
would virtually be to supersede what they had contem-
plated on the 14th of March, 1632. It should also be
observed, that a Committee of the House of Lords was now
sitting on this subject, with the sanction of the King's
ti,Go-
vernment.eirLord iThey
igkht newbe n; oat o
dwtl,7 tis(tiho
pe t dtehtee r rfinri
sntatpiaornt
of
this resolution would be to set themselves wholly at vari-
ance with the instructions contained in the resolution ap-
pointing the Committee of the House of Lords, which was
to inquire as to what had been done for the amelioration
of the slaves, under the resolutions of 1823. He could
not agree to this abstract resolution, which declared that an
act ought to be done, without stating the way in which it
was to be effected. It was the very worst mode of pro-
ceeding that could be adopted. The Committee would, of
course, he composed of prrtisans on both sides ; and he
saw little chance of their coming to an amicable arrange-
ment. In what manner the extinction of slavery could be
best effected, and what was likely afterwards to be the state
of society in those colonies where it bad so long prevailed,
were subjects to which he must give his most solemn and
Serious attention, before he agreed to a resolution which
declare d at once that slavery should be abolished. Ministers
ought either to adopt the course pursued in the House of
Lords, and inquire into what had been done under the re-
solutions of 1823 to ameliorate the condition of the slaves,
or they ought to take the subject wholly into their own
hands, and state plainly what they meant to do.
Lord ALTHORP said, that if his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Buxton) had advanced an abstract proposition, that slavery
should be abolished, unaccompanied with anything else,
then he ehould agree with the Right Hon. Baronet that
it would he highly objectionable. But that was net the
case. The resolution went on to call for the appointment
of a committee to inquire into the safest and speediest mode
2t
when
s e resolutionsob theobject
e avowed
v o
could were
adopted
udl
a eee
w
of extinguishing slavery. This was not at all at variance
itt)lipttel:l by eretshoeluitlioonosse
°a that
ft
it
83. i
mhe Those
witho
that
ob-
ject of xtinguishing slavery, w
properly and prudently effected. Therefore the present
motion was not inconsistent with the proceedings which
the House had hitherto adopted on the subject, it being
the object of the House to consider how, and by what
means, slavery could safely he abolished. The object of
the resolutions of 1823, was the amelioration of the slave,
and such, in this instance, would be the object of inquiry
in the committee ? Where, thee, was the inconsistency ?
There was a committee appointed in the House of Lords
to investigate this subject, with the acquiescence of his
Majesty's Government ; and they had acquiesced in that
Committee because they were assured that its labours
would be directed to the consideration of the best mode o 1
ameliorating the condition of the slave. N,aw, as their
Lordships had a committee, he thought that, so far front
being an objection, was an argument in support of the ap-
pointment of a committee of the House of Commons. The
resolution nf the House of Lords set forth that an inquiry
should be made into the best mode of ameliorating the
condition of the slave with " a due consideration of the
interests of all parties." The present resolution certainly
did not contain that provision ; but, looking to the speech
of his Hon. Friend, and of all those who had taken that
side of the question, he was convinced that due•considera-
tion would be given to those interests. Ile would not
pledge himself to any immediate abolition of slavery, be •
cause lie did not think that the sl we population was in a
situation to receive that bowl beneficially for themselves,—

(Hear, hear.) But he thought that the legislature migh•
employ itself most usefully in bringing the slaves to sucl
a state of moral feeling as would be suitable to the pro
posed alteration in their condition. They would thus In
performing an important duty, and achieving that whicl
was due to humanity and justice. He could not see any
objection to the insertion of the words proposed by tlo
Hon. Gentleman opposite, and he could not see how his
Hon. Friend (the Member for Weymouth) could object t“
them, as he admitted that the colonists would have a fair!
claim to compensation if they should be injured by any.
measures which should be taken for the abolition of slavery.
It was most desirable that upon a question such as this.
as little difference should prevail as possible—(Hear,
hear)—and if his Hun. Friend would agree to the inser-
tion of the words suggested in his resolution, his doing so
would conciliate all parties to the appointment of the
Committee.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. MURRAY admitted that there could he nothing
more deplorable than the existence of slavery, anti that
there could be nothing more desirable than its abolition ;
but at the same time he would contend, that whatever
measures should be adopted for the purpose of changing
the condition of the population of the West Indies from
that of slaves to that of freemen, should be taken with the
greatest caution, prudence, and deliberation. It appeared
to him that the best course to pursue was to keep such a
question as this as much as possible in the hands of the
Government. He conceived that if the Government were
sincere—and he had no doubt that they were—in their
desire to put an end to slavery, they would adopt measures
for that purpose in due accordance with the safety of all
existing interests in the West Indies ; and, for his part,
he thought that there could be nothing more imprudent or
dangerous than to take such a matter out of the hands of
the Government anti put it into the hands of the House of
Common,. A committee on the state of the West Indies
had b en already appointed in the Lords, and he did not
see why a committee on the same subject should he ap-
pointed in this House on directly different principles.
They possessed sufficient information as to the existence of
slavery to proceed with the abolition of it with caution
and prudence. He thought it would be most imprudent
in the present state of the Wt,st Indies to conic to such a
resolution as that proposed by the Hon. Member, anti that
its adoption by that House might be productive of the most
dangerous consequences in those colonies. On these
grounds he should oppose it, at the same rime that be
should be most anxious to see that most desirable object,
the utter extinction of slavery, effected, whenever it could
be effected with safety to the persons and properties of the
West India proprietors. He had never been guid, din his
course while in office by the popularity which might be
acquired on this subject, nor had he been influenced by the
excited speeches made out of doors on the subject ; and he
trusted his Majesty's present Ministers would be also proof
against such a strong temptation.
Mr. F. BUXTON said, that he had deliberately con-
sidered the suggestion t.) which his Noble Friend (Lord
Althorp) had drawn his attention, and that upon mature
conviction be was determined to oppose the introduction of
the, words proposed. He should divide, even if alone, on
the point.
Lord HOW ICK expressed the gratification with which
he had listened to the manly and honest declaration of the
Right Hon. and Gallant Officer (S r George Murray) as
to the necessity of the utter extinction of slavery, a senti-
ment in which he cordially concurred, and which was the
snore refreshning after the speech of the Right H. n. B tronet
(Sir R. Peel), from which it was impossible to gather
whether or not he was opposed to the permanent conti-
nuance of slavery. He 'lid not think that it would be
impossible, after due consideration, to devise a system for
the abolition of slavery, in which both the Hon. Member
for Weymouth and those connected with the West Indies

would concur. He agreed with the Right lion. Gentle-
man in thinking that this matter should as much as pos-
sible be kept in the hands of the Government. The Go-
vernment had acted upon that principle ; but the dith-
culties with which they had to contend in this instance
were to be attributed to that system of delay to which
all the after difficulties which they had to meet
were tole attributed. In 1823, when the pi iss.ons were
not excited so much as they were now, a settlement of this
question was practicable, but the Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite and his colleagues then shrank from the responsi-
bility of effecting such a settlement, and that was the true
source of the difficulties with which the present Govern-
ment had to contend in dealing with this question.—
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet disclaimed being
actuated with the spirit of party on this subject, but he
had certainly been under the influence of a stationary
spirit with regard to it. While on the Treasury Bench
he was alive to the difficulties which surrounded the
question ; but when he got to the opposite able of
the House, in this as on other questions, he was
ready to start objections to the course of Government.
He violently resisted the settlement of the Catholic ques-
tion when Mr. Canning was in power, and yet, in two
years after, the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed that very
measure which he had opposed in the time of Mr. Coi-
ning, and he then himself refuted the nugatory arguments
which he had at that period offered in opposition to it.—
(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet was a waiter upon
time, and he left to others to clear the road of all the dif-
ficulties that might beset it. The Order in Council which
had been issued by his Majesty's Ministers was founded
upon precisely the same principles as those Orders in
Council to which the Right Hon. Baronet had been a
party. After eight years of discussion, it would have been
mere trifling on the part of the Government to have asked
the legislative colonies to adapt the resolutions of 1823,
without coming forward with some measure to induce
them to do so. He hoped the appointment of this Com-
mittee would lead to a favourable result, and he could not
see that the appointment of it would at all supersede the
Order in Council. The result of the labours of the Com-
mittee, he trusted, would be to advise the legislative colo-
nies to adopt the Order in Council, and to devise better
and more effectual means for putting an end to slavery.
The measures which had been taken in the Crown colo-
nies for the amelioration of the condition of the slaves
had been productive of the best effects, as was proved by
the alteration in the rate of mortality among the slave po-
pulation of those islands. The Noble Lord here read a
ta'iular return, from which it appeared that in the crown
colony of St. Lucia the decrease in the population, from
1819 up to 1825, was at the rate of eight in every thou-
sand ; whereas, in the three years subsequent to the adop-
tion of the measures for ameliorating the condition of the
slaves in that colony, instead of a decrease there had
been an increase in its population at the rate of five
and a half in every thousand. It appeared from tie
same return, that in the legislative colony of Jamaica, in
the first six years he had referred to, the decrease in
the population had amounted to 8,436, being about one-
sixth in every thousand, and that in the subsequent period
of three years, the ameliorating measures not having been
adopted in that island, the decrease had amounted to the
enormous extent of 7,229, being an annual average de-
crease of about 4 1-6th in every thousand. That state-
ment afforded a proof of the hood effects which had fol.
lowed from the measures taken for ameliorating the condi-
tion of the slaves,—measures which had been taken with
as much caution arid prudence as the most timid amongst
the West India body could desire ; and he trusted that tl e
committee which would be now appointed might devise
some means by which the certain, thought not perhaps
early, extinction of slavery might be effectel.
Sir R. PEEL complained of the ungenerous attack
which hail been made upon him by the Noble Lord—an
attack which be was precluded from answering by the
rules of the House on the present occasion. The Noble
Lord, instead of attacking others, had enough to do in de-
fending the colonies from the dangers of that situation
into which he and his Government had brought them.—
(Cries of " Spoke.") He should confine himself, then,
to explanation. He denied that he had objected to the
Order in Council ; and he maintained that he hid said
nothing from which it could be inferred that he was not
impressed with as sincere a desire as the Noble Lord for
the ultimate extinction of slavery, when it could be effected
with security to the persons and properties of the West
India proprietors.

Lord SANDON said, that he felt it his duty to move an
amendment to the motion of the Hon. Member for Wey-
mouth, that in his resolution, after the word '' safety,"
ihere should be inserted the words " of the interests of
all parties concerned ;" and that at the end of the resolu-
tion the following words should be inserted :—" And in
conformity with the resolutions of the 15th May, 1823."
He had in his possession at present a petition from a great
body of his constituents—from men of all interests, East
West India, and North America—praying that the
House would appoint a Committee to inquire into the sub-
ject before it adopted any sudden measure with regard to
the West Indies. He trusted that the principle of con
ciliation would be adopted on all sides. He had not en-
rolled himself amongst the abolitionists, because he saw
so much party spirit, so much misrepresentation, and so
much more of animosity towards the p:anters, than of
charity to the slaves amongst them ; and he was aware•
that if he had so enrolled himself he should have been
answerable for such proceedings.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORY said, that he had already suggested to
the Hon. Member for Weymouth to introduce the words,
the introduction of which the Noble Lord who had just
sat down had moved. He agreed with the Noble Lord in
thinking that it would be desirable that some such word,
should be introduced into the resolution, but he thought
the latter part of the Noble Lord's amendment amply

sufficient—namely, the introluation of the words " it
conformity with the resolutions of the 15th of May, 182,3,"
for those resolutions embraced all the objects the Noble
Lord had in view.
Sir R. PEEL thought that some words implying th. t
the interests of the planters should be protected ought to
be introduced into the resolution.
Sir C. WETHERELL said, that he felt it necessary to
vindicate his Right Hon. Friend near him, and those who
acted with him on the question of Catholic Emancipation.
from one of the most extraordinary attacks which , mirky
the circumstances of the case, he had ever heard made
upon a public man. He thought that a more conciliatory
speech than that delivered by his Right Hon. Friend could
not easily be imagined ; nevertheless, it bad called from
the Noble Under-Secretary for the Colonies a speech, than
which any thing more insulting, more provoking, more
unstatesmanlike, had never fallen from a gentleman bold-
ing an official situation, whether young in office or old in
office.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had done the utmost
in his power to provoke an angry discussion. The qu s-
tion before the House bad never been considered as a party
question ; but the Noble Lord had done every thing in
his power to make it, by interweaving with the discussion
the angry topics of Catholic Emancipation and Parlia-
mentary Reform.—(Elear.) This, it must be acknow-
ledged, was the reverse of pouring oil upon the angry
waters.—(A laugh.) The Noble Lord had not been
long in office, and therefore he would take the liberty of
advising him, the next time the question of slavery was
introduced, and there appeared a disposition on hot% sides
of the House to proceed pari passe, not, as far as he was
concerned, to let any thing occur on the part of the Go-
vernment to prevent the question from having a safe
and easy passige. The Noble Lord said that his Right
Hon. Friend was a standing-still man. Now he thought
that the Noble Lord was a man of movement. It his
Right Hon. Friend stood still, he was sure that the colo-
nists would not stand still when they heard the Noble
Lord's language. If ever there was an incentive to the co-
lonies to throw off their allegiance, it was to be found in
the provoking speech of the Noble Undsr-Secretary. It
was evidently the intention of the Noble Lord to put a con-
struction up in the proceedings of the Hou.e which the
Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Noble Mem-
ber for Liverpool deprecated. When the Noble Lord at-
tacked his Right Hon. Friend for standing still, he begged
him to take care that he did not proceed too fast, for be
(Sir C. Wetherell) did not hesitate to assert, that in the
present state of the West Indies, a declaration of the House
of Commons in f +your of ur qualified emancipation would
be the signal for revolt. The Noble Lord was not cor-
rect in his history, when he asserted that all the Cabinets
which had existed since Mr. Canning's had stood still
upon the question of emancipation. That was not the
case. Considerable advances had been made towards
earring into effect the resolutions of 1823 ; and if the
Noble Lord would refer to the office in which he lid 4 a
situation, he would find that the question of emancipation
had not stood still, but had been advanced by different
secretaries with a bona fide progression, and with as
much expedition as was comp tilde o ith the cautious
course recommended by Mr. Canning's resolutions. The
motion had been seconded in a speech which he would not
call the movement of sedition, but the movement of elo-
quence.
seconder The
this—that teas ro posi tio
because of the
slavery Hon. a
sand abhorrent Learned t o
religion and the British Constitution, it ought therefore to
be immediately abolished. That, however, was a fallacy.
Others regulated the principle by historical experience,
which proved that no instantaneous transition from slavery
proposition
to freedom could be effected without producing mischiefs
which would nearly co untedialance the blessing of liberty.
The amendment had introduced into the original proposi•
tion a qualification of a very valuable nature,—namely
that emancipation was not to be carried into effect at
any particular time, but only when it could be done con-
sistently with the safety and the interests of the persons
connected with the West Indies. The Noble Lord cor-
rectly and properly stated, that though the motion, as
amended, did not in terms pledge the Government t,) grant
compensation to the planters, yet it admitted the principle
of compensation. He was much disposed to think that it
would have been better had the question been left in the
hands of Government, instead of being placed in those of a
committee.—(Hear.) There was reason to fear that a
committee would not exercise sufficient caution in the con-
sideration of this most important and (lac ite subject.
The Noble Lord Althorp had not joined in the taunts
which hisNobleColleague had thrown out against these whom
he accused of standing still, but he nevertheless approved
of the appointment of a committee. Upon that point he
disagreed with the Noble Lord, but he entirely approved of
the amendment which he had proposed, pledging the
House not to authorize any attempts at sudden emancipa-
tion, but only a course of proceeding in conformity with
the resolutions of Mr. Canning. With all due deference to
the abolitionist party—to the piety or saintship of one
class, the eloquence of another, arol the eagerness of a third
—it was his opinion that the idea of the immediate eman-
cipation of the slave population of the West India colooits
was an absurdity. He trusted the Government of this
country would never sanction a course of conduct with re-
spect
to the colonies, which would operate like the famous
proclamation of the French Convention, in which they pro-
claimed freedom among the slaves of the colonies. He
was as willing as any person to abolish slavery, but lie
would not do so at the cost of the destruction of life and
property. The question of emancipation involved not only
the manumission of slaves, but a consideration of the in-
terests of the great branches of trade which had grown out
of the system of slavery. As it appeared to be the wish of
the House not to divide, he hoped that the Hon. Member
for Weymouth would be induced to agree to the amend-
ment proposed. The Hon. Member at first seemed disin-
clined to allow his motion to be modified at all. In the
cant phrase of the day, he would hare emancipation, in-
stant emancipation, and nothing but emancipation. If the
Hon. Member's wishes were carried into effect, our colonies
would exhibit a scene of horror similar to that which the
French colonies presented at the commencement of the
revolution. Having vindicated his Right Hon. Friend
from the furious and unjust attack of the Noble Lord,
he would conclude with giving his support to the
amendment.

Mr. HUME said, that the present question, more than
any, required to be discussed without any admixture of
angry feeling, and therefore he extremely regretted th it
any thing like intemperate conduct should have been dis-
played upon the occasion. If it tv,s intended that the
stain of slavery should be wiped from England, as he
thought every freeman would desire it to be, they should
avoid all irritating language, which would only exasperate
those whose sole property, unfortunately for themselves,
consisted in slaves. He was extremely happy to find that
the Noble Lord opposite was determined to limit the reso-
lution before the House to the objects which the House of
Commons, in 1823, pledged itself to effect. The resolu-
tion, as amended, was perfectly consistent with Mr. Can
ning's resolutions, and he was surprised that any person
who read those resolutions, and particularly the last of
them, should object to the introduction of the words pro
posed by the Noble Member for Liverpool. He believed
that the condition of the slaves had been considerably ame-
liorated in consequence of the resolutions passed in 1823.
He lamented to hear the statement of the Hon. Member
for Weymouth, as to the extent to which punishment
was carried. There was, however, no reasoning upon
the subject. Experience proved the impmsibility of a
state of slavery existing without some means of
compelling labour. What was the ground upon
which military lligging in free states, and applied to free
men, was defended ? Neces,ity! He denied the existence
of the necessity; but if flogging in the case of free men
could find advocates op the plea of necessity, how was it
possible to dispense with corporal punishment in the case
of slaves? The Hon. Member for Weymouth properly
defined slavery when he said that it was a system which
insured the proprietor the labour of his slave. In discuss-
ing the question of slavery, it was advisable to discard all
topics of an irritating nature, and to have in view th..
amelioration of the condition of their slaves, in all their
measures, as much as possible. lie thought it quite pos-
aible that measures might be adopted for the ultimate abo-
lition of slavery, agreeably to the resolutions of the ]louse,
consistently with the welfare of the slaves, and the inte-
rests of the proprietors. He would not yield to the Hon.
Member for Weymouth in a desire to see the slave popu-
lation free; but he thought that they would not consult
either the happiness of the slave or the interests of the
proprietor by immediate emancipation. Slavery was an
evil which had unfortunately grown up under laws which
we had sanctioned, and practices lung continued. The
wise course was, not to consider slavery as an abstract
question, but to look at it as it existed under these cir-
cumstances, and reflect whether any sudden change was
likely to prove beneficial either to the slaves or their mas-
ters. Admitting the decrease of the slave population as
m i
stated by the Hon. Member for Wey
outh, t by no
means followed that this decrease was the consequence o
a state of slavery. It might be accounted for by other
circumstances. He was informed that there were special
reasons for the decrease in Demerara, to which the Hop.
Member particularly referred. It appeared, by the same
returns from which the Hon. Member quoted, that in
Barbados, which produced 220,000 cwt, of sugar, and
was, in
in
thefct fact, fourth o
pu olratfiioftnil in
iadtheinchrta
list of
sugar planta-
tion,ed by 9,000 or
10,000 during the same period in which the population
of Demerara had decreased 10,000 or 12,000. Result.
so different under apparently the same circumstances rt-
aaaoeurp

(wired another explanation than that which the. Hon;
Nlember for Weymouth had given. It had been stated
in evidence before a Committee of this House, that the
decease of population in Demerara hail been gradually
diminishing from 1825 up to the present moment, and
that now there was no decrease at all. This was a point
of the utmost importance, to which the attention of the
Committee should be specially directed. The witness to
whose evidence be had alluded, stated that the time would
soon arrive when there would be an increase of the slave
population in Demerara. This evidence, which was that
of a parson perfectly conversant with the subject, was in
flat contradiction to the statement of the lion. Member
fur Weymouth. At all events, it proved that further in-
quiry was necessary before the House adopted the views
of the Hon. Member. The most prudent course which
the Ilou,e could pursue was to adopt the amendment
proposed by the Noble Lord, which was in strict con-
formity with the principles whiCh hail been confirmed
again and again in that House. In the present state of
the colonies, nothing should be done which was calculaid
to excite irritation. If the resolutions of the Hon. Mein-
her for Weymouth should be carried, they would pro-
duce a feeling amongst the colonists which would render
them indisposed to adopt any measures recommended by
this country. It must he evident to the colonists that
there existed an overwhelming desire on the part of the
people of England that throughout the British pos-
sessions every man should he free ; and he believed
that. they would yield to that desire; but again, he
would repeat, that the work of emancipation must
he gradual, in order to insure the happiness of the slaves
and the interests of the planters, and of the country.
Mr. G. KNIGHT declared himself to he a strenuous
supporter of emancipation ; but lie feared, if an attempt
were made to eff-ct this object before the slaves were pre-
pared to enjoy liberty, scenes of bloodshed and massacre
would occur in our colonies similar to those which had
taken place in St. Domingo, the history of which colony
he thought should operate as a warning to both planters
and slaves.
Mr. EVANS said the unfortunate transactions which
occurred at St. Domingo were not the consequence of the
emancipation of the slaves, but the result of an attempt to
reduce those who were emancipated to a state of slavery
again. He regretted exceedingly that the Noble Lord
should have brought forward his amendment on the motion
of his Hon. Friend, which should have his vote if his
Hon. Friend called for a division of the House.
Mr. O'CONNELL, in rising to deliver his sentiments
upon this important question, would carefully abstain front
the adoption of any language that might hurt the feelings
of Hon. Members whose views were opposed to his own.
The right of compensation he denied upon two distinct
grounds,—first, upon the principle that no man could rea-
sonably claim compensation for surrendering that which
inflicted wrong upon his fellow-creature; and, secondly,
because be was of opinion that no case for compensation
would arise, for they di.l not wish to deprive the West
India proprietors of their houses and estates ; they simply
required them to cultivate their lands as lands were culti-
vated in this country, by free labour, which, he contended,
would be productive of gain instead of loss. With respect
to the N b!e Lord's proposition, he must object to it as it
source of delay, of which they had ample experience already.
He was for throwing overboard the resolutions of 1823,
which had been brought forward by a Minister not ree
workable for the sincerity of his devotion to the cause of
freedom, and were only calculated to delude the public and
procrastinate the adju,tment of the question. The propos
sition of his Hon. Friend the Member fur Weymouth env
braced emancipation coupled with safe,y, and upon that
score was liable to no otjection. He implored the Noble
Lord (Altborp) to grant a Committee on the principle
laid down his Hon. Friend, out of consideration for the
general voice of the people of England, which it would
prove vain to resist, as the time would shortly arrive when
a more popular House of Commons would be returned,
with its Members deeply pledged to the abolition of slavery.
No ch .nge in the r« presentation was necessary in Ireland,
for all ti e Irish _Members, with the exception, he believed,
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Armagh
(Mr. Goulburn), were unanimous upon the question. The
danger to the planters, he was prepared to maintain, lay,
not in the abolition but in the continuance of slavery,—in
the existence of a system that made its victims consider
life a burden, and death desirable. The is solutions of
1823 had done their business. The country had been long
enough deluded, and it was time that the pople should
know that the slave was to be emancipated. Let England
perform her act of retribution to the slaves, and she would
make it impossible for the Americans, the Spaniards, or
any other n ition, to continue the reign of oppression. He
hoped that the Noble Lord would not persevere in pressing
his amendment, I ut if he were resolved to do so, he trusted
that his Hon. Friend would take the sense of the House
upon the question.
Mr. A. BARING said, it was easy to declaim vaguely,
as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell) had
done, against granting compensation to the West India
proprietors ; but it should he borne in mind that when
compensation was demanded, it was for that which the
legislature of this country had treated as property for
long series of years. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
himself admitted that by the adoption of free labour no 1
injury would result to the planter. Now if such were the;
fict, upon what plea cot-C(1 the Hon. and Learned Member
object to the addition of the word " compensation" to the
resolution ?—( Hear.) In his opinion, however, the in•
terests of the West India proprietors formed the smallest
part of the consideration in the question of compensation ;I
for, looking merely to the profits of the estates, it would
require very little money to make an equivalent for their
relinquished profits. But who, he would ask, could make
adequate compensation to the shipping and other great in'
terests of the country, whose property was so closely cons
nected with the colonies ?—(Hear.) The feeling that
was abrwal among the people of England on the subject of
slavery—a feeling grievous in its origin—would not, he
was well aware, he satisfied save by the surrender of the
colonies. But he would venture to say, that when the
colonies were gone from us, and the eyes of the country
opened, then a bitter day would arrive for the nation, and
gentlemen little anticipated how the change would be felt
in every town in the kingdom, and among our interests,
both commercial and agricultural. It was clear, froth
their trading relations, that when the West Indic
islands were gone, our American colonies would soots
follow. He was every way inclined to speak with
respect of the efforts of those persons who hi
their perseverance had succeeded in ameliorating
the condition of the slaves, and he believed that by pot:
suit g temperate measures they might yet effect much goof,
and at no very distant period effect the emancipation of the
negio Still he could not assent to all the statements they
had put forth, nor agree to their consequent deductions'
The Hun. Member for Weymouth had produced a calculi'
tion of the amount of the annual punishment by the whiP
in the whole of the West India islands, which he rated 'C
2,000,000 of lashes. Now, supposing that the calculatioli
were accurate, what did it amount to ? Why that this
extent of corporal punishment being distributed among
800,000 persons, left about two stripes for each individual
negro. He would admit the principle that the free
1 ihourer was a cheaper servant than a slave.—(Hear,
hear.) Instead of feeding and taking care of a mans.'
I aving out of view the original outlay of capital—it would'
he granted, be most desirable for the planter to substitute
l
gratified if a Committee could hold out to the house and
tt
ne
Countrypa m n ta of wages svhoogpee,
emiepspnxstrrnoculethtpiidetioeenety,nnny,tecioleydof:ut,slhidlibaeeevnt:ovittoahlsngaa.ibtecAoeouitnesrh:,,,leiienbwl
convinced
reiviihfl
ohei
white
otehtp:lae,met,e —ye
price
Weymouth,
foie
wcytuehot
wouldheuoy,i
fdbp erbscoeuac
gueeo
ae proceeded
ienhgdwteeudowo
tity:pb
reckless impetuosity,—if what was called freedom prove
t freedom from labour,—then the result would, he ar
Dave the islands, and we should be necessitated to take in,. article oi.lefeaer•nxs
et
goe extensive
osoei
uvs.re
own
nme
colonial
won
leoorun.
be doubled or trebled in Jamaica. if they acted inv
persuadedo
cause ni o more
of itnhset adnatn
oe Iftymaankdi
of ands fcriieedael
frrs:ol
beneficialailtHt;eeftunoarr.nal.e.
niagnnd alteration.choel o
n shouldies w which
0
ger
the evil of prematurely proclaiming the extinction e,
htBi
shois
uld
no.
iuws nehe be s•
eaa
Pt; miserye a
rtaHhantaeeinocodnblaosjatedtece:noetdcdoci
sntuohgr
orrtobore
n
ill
Virginian gentlemen, be hail a large number—should Oe
ion
adopted the precaution of pinning
After the will was opened, Mrs. Washington, by the ad' vice of some friends, ere she retired to rest for the night'
oyd\fiovs,oawystnhhhoianmttght'etohelnikrlsaelvditbe,nae.itri:;
(Hear.) He would leave this anecdote to the understand'
ing of the House. oafshrteilnio,lnateeaddgkdrei
ounnigisftlital:vVeAeaglpsr_r:d.oien Washington's who specifiea
Dr. LUSHINGION believed that but for the endea'
yours of those persons who had laboured indefatigably to,.
put the people of England in possession of the merits 0;
the question, slavery, with all its admitted evils, would
have continued unaltered up to the present hour. fbe
Learned Gentleman contended, that the proprietors di`
not feel, as had been asserted, a sentiment of commisera-
tion for the slaves. And when it was said that if injurY
were inflicted on them there was a mode of redress, be
denied the fact. In a ease which occurred last November'
where a person in power had inflicted injury on a slave,
complaint was made to the Council of Protection, 11,4
dress was refused. He then alluded to the Jamaica Code,
which was drawn up in a way to induce indivi-
duals to believe that its authors meant one thing, while''