The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-04 00:00:00

ing Catholics at all interposing with any appointments con-
nected with the Established Church. He did not mean to
say that he considered the danger to the Church greater from
Roman Catholics dispensing its patronage than other Dis-
senters ; bui he disapproved of any Dissenters having any in-
fluence over the patronage of the Church.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, when he talked of disappointing the will of the ori-
ginal donors, forgot how many souls were at this moment suf-
fering in purgatory for want of the masses they gave their pro-
perty to obtain.—(Laughter.) As the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had been pathetic upon the disappointments of the
original donors, he would in his turn be pathetic, and appeal
to him on behalf of the suffering souls who had not had the
masses celebrated for them, which much of this property was
given for.--(Renewed laughter.) At all events, he could
assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that his fears were
vain ; for by the Irish penal laws, passed by a gross breach of
the faith of treaties, the Roman-Catholics of Ireland were de-
prived of all power, directly or indirectly, to present, either
individually or as corporators, to any living, and these statutes
had never been repealed.
Mr. LAW—That is in Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Nor in England, and the Duke of
Norfolk could not now present to any advowson, any more
than before the passing of the Emancipation Act. The 15th
section of that Act kept the penal statutes in full force' and
there was nothing in this Bill to repeal them. He was, how-
ever, quite ready to agree to any clause preventing the inter-
ference of Roman Catholic councillors, under a penalty, with
any appointment relative to the Established Church. He did
not exercise power of this kind, that he might in his own reli-
gion, for he considered the subject too delicate for him to med-
dle with ; and d fortiori, he did not wish to meddle with the
ecclesiastical appointments of a religion with which he was un-
connected.
Mr. LAW observed, that what he complained of was—
there being nothing in the Bill by which to ascertain the re-
ligion of a Town Councillor ; so that the law might be en-
forced.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—Although he was willing to impose
a penalty on a Roman Catholic who interfered with Protes-
tant ecclesiastical appointments, must protest against the im-
position of any test. They had bad enough of tests.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if
the principle of a test were good, they must go the length of
maintaining that no person should present to a living, unless
he subscribed the 39 articles.
Mr. C. W YNN was understood to say, that although ab-
stractedly he agreed in the proposition of the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin as to the original destination of
this property, yet, after a practice of 300 years had violated
the theory, he thought it would be a gross violation of the
rights of private property, strictly to enforce the abstract pro-
position. He did not wish to dispense with any check that
was provided by law on the Dissenters (including, of course,
Roman Catholics) from interfering with the property of the
Establishment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that after what had fallen from
the Right Hon. Gentleman, he wished to state what he con-
sidered the present state of the law to be, and what would be
the effect of this Bill. The Act repealing the Test and Cor-
poration Acts replaced the anci,nt securities by a declaration
to be taken by every person assuming an office either under the
Crown or in a Corporation. But that declaration was not to
be a test applied to the conscience; and he was of opinion
that after this Bill should be passed, the same declaration would
be required from persons taking office as was now required ly
the law.
Lord SANDON thought that as the clause now stood.
. .

would be a practical invasion of the rights of the Church, in.
asmuch as the power of presentation would be given to mem.
bers of Corporations without any restriction, or any mode of
ascertaining their religious principles.
Mr. WILK S was delighted to hear the observations made
by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department.
He begged to assure the Noble Lord the Member for Liver-
pool (Lord Sandon), that there was nothing in the law of
England to prevent Protestant Dissenters from being proprie-
tors of every advowson in England—nay, nor Roman Catholics.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Yes, Roman Catholics are prevented,
but Jews are not.
Mr. WILK S—What, then, would be the consequence of
any such alteration as should preclude Dissenters, in any of
these boroughs, from acting with the rest of the members of
the Common Council in the dispensing of Church property?
It would be to raise up that spirit which, for half a century,
all parties had been endeavouring to destroy. If Parliament
were to make any such distinction, it would tend very much
indeed to defeat that general harmony which it was the object
of the Legislature to effect by repealing the Test and Corpo-
ration Acts ; and would create anew the tyranny of the mem-
bers of the Church, and cherish afresh those irritations and that
spiritual tyranny, arising from dissent, which it was the hope
of all would be done away with by the repeal of the Test and
Corporation Acts.
Mr. H. TWISS suggested to the Noble Lord that the
simplest course would be to insert a few words in the clause to
the effect that all persons should make a declaration similar to
the declaration specified in the Act repealing the Test and
Corporation Acts. If this Act should be passed, we should
have a tyranny, not such as the Hon. Member who spoke last
had alluded to, but one much less endurable, inasmuch, as it
would be the tyranny of persons of the lowest classes
(Hear, hear, with cries of " Oh, oh 1") He would approve
of a proposition to take from Corporations Church patronage
altogether.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL appealed to the Committee,
whether it was proper to protract the discussion, inasmuch
as no amendment had been proposed.—(Hear, hear.) He
had already said that a declaration must be taken by the mem-
bers of the Corporation—( Hear, hear)—it was not necessary,
therefore, to introduce any clause to that effect. The ques-
tion which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had raised, as
to whether the Corporation ought or not to exercise the power
of appointing to Church livings at all, was one on which he
would not give an opinion. If the question should be brought
forward, he admitted it would be worthy of consideration • but
this was not the time to discuss it. He, therefore, hoped the
Committee would at once pass the clause.
Sir F. TRENCH said that it was his intention to propose
an amendment, inasmuch as he thought that this was calcu-
lated indifectly to do that which no person would attempt to
do openly and indirectly. He believed that the effect of the
clause would be, whatever might be the intention of those who
proposed it, to destroy the Established Church. The amend-
ment. which he intended to move would be to the effect, that
the property of the Church should be at the disposal of those
persons only of the Town Council who were members of the
Established Church ; but as he understood that it would come
in more properly in the 79th Clause, he should defer it till
that clause was proposed.—( Oh, oh I and laughter.)
The 62d clause was then agreed to, as was also the 63d
clause.

The 64th clause was then moved.
Oa the clause being put, a desultory conversation ensued,
in which it was suggested that as it would set in action very
complicated machinery, which would cause an unnecessary
multiplication of Boards in the different boroughs, it had better
be postponed, and discussed on another occasion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not accede to the sugges-
tion, but promised that the objection should be taken into con-
sideration with a view to its.removal if practicable.
Mr. LA W proposed the addition of a proviso, the object of
which was to preserve the rights of the Universities of Oxford
and Cambridge.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the utmost care
should be taken to preserve the rights of the Universities
inviolate.

111 r. LAW, on that assurance, consented to withdraw his
amendment.

Colonel SIBTH ORP supported the postponement of the
clause, on the understanding that another opportunity for dis-
cussion should be afforded. Others might be disposed to
trust the Noble Lord, but he was not—(Enthusiastic cheers.)
Sir J. ELLE Y hoped care would be taken to provide a
sufficiently numerous watch to do duty at contested elections,
and thus prevent the necessity of calling out the military.
Nothing was more painful to the feelings of that high-minded
body than being thus brought into collision with their fellow-
subjects. He hoped, at all events, they would never be
called out until all other means had been tried.

The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 66 and 67.
The 68th, 69th, 70th, 71st, 72d, 73d, 74th, 75th, 76th,
77th, and 78th clauses, were then agreed to.
On clause 79 being read,
Mr. W. PATTEN suggested that this clause should be
postponed.

Sir W. FOLLETT agreed in the suggestion, as it was
the most important clause of all. He had no object to delay
the progress of the Bill, as they could go on with the rest of
the clauses.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought, that as the House was
generally full at this hour, it was best to go on.
After a few words from Mr. ESTCOURT,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that as it was the wish of
the House, he had no objection that the clause should be
postponed to a definite hour on Monday.
Thy clause was then postponed, on the understanding that
it was to be taken into consideration on going into Committee
on Monday.
Clauses 80 to 86 inclusive were severally put and agreed to.
On clause 87 being put,
Mr. D. W. HARVEY proposed an amendment that no per-
son shall hold the office of Recorder of a city or borough who
practises at the Assizes or Sessions of the county in which such
town or borough is situate. He did so, because he thought
that a person exercising the functions of a Judge, should not
be dependent on a number of attorneys.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied that there would
be no objection to adopt the amendment of the Hon. Gentle-
man, if they should give salaries sufficiently large to induce
persons to abandon their profession. This, however, could not
be done.

Mr. WILKs and Mr. P. HOWARD supported the amend.
ment.

Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD opposed the amendment, and
disclaimed being influenced by interested motives in so doing.
Mr. Sergeant G 0 UL BURN supported the amendment.
Mr. GROTE concurred in the principle of the amend-
ment, but thought that its application in the smaller boroughs
would be so inconvenient, that he recommended that the
amendment be withdrawn.

Mr. HARVEY then withdrew it, and the original clause
was agreed to.

Clauses 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, and 94 were agreed to.
The House then resumed, the Cnmammy reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again.

LIGHTHOUSES.
71 I.IA S infidirecl of the Hon. \f,mber for '!;::iddlesex
if legHtitive 111Cu6ul'e would r i brought in fou.ndtAl upon
the r:'t),)ll7 or tilt' Commit.te. Lightlu.wi;ei..,.
Mr. lIUME 6itid that a Bill was -i;dy, an w 0414 be