The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, ,ATITTIDAV, AUGUST 15, 1835.

of the supply voted this year. Well, Sir, this is not the only
liffieulty which we have had to contend with, because these
are the estimates which have been cast upon us by the Right
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and for which they are responsible.
But at the same time there have been some votes which
were partially thrown upon their estimates, and partially
upon mine, which have prevented a still further reduction
of the estimates, which, but for this, would have taken
place. For instance, the fire which unfortunately destroyed
both Houses of Parliament added 69.700/. The• satisfaction
liven to one class of the Danish claimants, which certainly
could not be included in the direct expenditure of any Go-
vernment for the time being, I may justly estimate at 113,0001.
The fire at the Dublin Docks I estimate at 68,000/. The vote
given to the Poles at 10,0001. Another vote, which does not be-
long to the service of the year, but which I have introduced into
the supplementary Estimates upon grounds that were satisfac-
tory to the House at the time that I stated it—l mean the
vote for the Revising Barristers--those professional gen-
tlemen who have given up their time and . attention to
the discharge of a public duty, should no longer be
left waiting for the money which they had honestly earned,
until the public contingencies should enable me to perform
my duty.—( Cries of " Hear, hear")—that sum amounted
to 22,5001., which, in point of fact, belongs to the service of
a future period rather than this. There is another vote which
the Noble Lord ( Althorp) consideed inadequate for the purpose
for which it was granted, but which at the same time interferes
with the reduction of taxation to the amount of 180,000/. The
sum has been granted upon the recommendation of the County
rates Committee of last year, to defray one half of the County
rates. There is also another sum which I am sure this
House does not regret, which has been devoted to the
purchase of works of Art, and which amounts to 6,000/. There
is a vote for the education in the Slave Colonies, which
amounts to 25,000/., and there is one other vote which does
not appear in the sums voted, but which will be voted in a
Committee of the whole House, to which I do not anticipate
any objection—l mean the vote to give relief to the sufferers
in Dominica, for the property destroyed in the hurricane.
'Fills will amount to 12,0001. The total of the sums to which I have
alluded amount to 436,0001. which will so far interfere with my
plan for the further reduction of taxation. I will now proceed
to a statement of the income and expenditure of the present
year. In the first place, the Members of this House have before
them—and I beg they will attend to the circumstance—a ba-
lance sheet which has been laid on the table of the House, and
copies of which have been distributed during the last week.
This balance-sheet—and I state its results in general terms—
shows the income at 46,087,000/., and the expenditure
45,185,0001., and exhibits a surplus of 902,000/. If there be any
inconvenience connected with the delay of the Budget (as it
is called), on which some observations may hereafter be
made, for this the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir
Robert Peel) knows that I am not responsible ; because
I could not have made this statement until I had completed
the loan, and that any other statement would be, until then,
premature—but if there was inconvenience in a postpone-
ment, it had also its benefits, because I have now the results
of another quarter, and the results of future income and ex-
penditure, which might be made without sufficient data at
an early period of the year, but are now corrected by the re-
sult of that quarter, and it is to this that I now invite the
attention of the House. I have stated that in April the balance
sheet exhibits a surplus of 902,000/., and the income on the
balance sheet for the year ending in July exhibits a sum of
45,539,000/., and an expenditure of 44,334,0001; I omit
the small figures and fractions. This, Sir, 'shows a
surplus of 1,205,000/. in place of the surplus to which I have
alluded. I shall have occasion, so far as the progress of the
ordinary revenue and expenditure of the country goes, to take
upon myself to say that the statement made cannot but be
satisfactory to the House. But the House will have the
goodness to recollect that in the one case, as well as in
the other, there is a charge connected with the West
Indian Colonies, which we now have to pay. I have
only stated, with reference to the two balance-sheets, what
the income and expenditure was, in order to show what
would be the state of the case, on the ordinary principle
of comparing the whole amount of the revenue with the or-
dinary amount of expenditure ; but we shall afterwards
see how these surpluses are diminished and reduced by reason
of the engagements which the country has to meet. I shall
now proceed to compare, in order to enable the House to
know the exact position in which the country is placed, the
present amount. I shall compare the calculations which my
Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) when Chancellor of the Exche-
quer made by anticipation in July last with the actual results of
the year past, and then I shall state what are my anticipations.
Now, Sir, I will endeavour to simplify this statement as much
as possible, because Hon. Gentlemen who are conversant
with the subject will easily fill up the outline, and those
who are not conversant with it, if I lead them to results,
will feel it more satisfactory than if I covered them with
details. The estimate, comparing Lord Althorp's estimate
with the balance-sheet for the quarter ending the sth of July,
my Noble Friend, anticipating the receipt of income ,of
45,738,0001., the balance of income then is 45,539,000/., so
that there was a falling off of income beyond the calculation
of my Noble Friend of 239,000/. He calculated the
expenditure at 44,801,0001., whereas, in point of
fact, it only amounted ' to, and it did not exceed
44,334,0001., so that there was a diminution of the ex-
penditure of 466,000/. to meet the diminution of the
income of 239,000/. My Noble Friend calculated upon a
surplus of 977,000/. The surplus of the balance sheet was
125,000/., showing a surplus of 227,000/. more than was cal-
culated by my Noble Friend. I have excluded from this
the provision made for the West India slaves, but that
will not vary the proportions in the slightest degree.
Now, Sir, I shall proceed to state what is my estimate for the
next year.
Mr. G OULB URN—Is it for the financial year?
Mr. RlCE—Yes—the estimate which I make is for the
financial year. Now, Sir, I am about to state what
my calculations are for the ensuing year. I will
first state the result, and lay before the House the
grounds upon which I came to that result. I calcu-
late the income of the country at 45,550,000/. I calculate the
expenditure at 44,715,000/. , which leaves a surplus
of 835,000/., subject to charges to which I shall now call
the attention of the House. I shall now proceed to
give the statement of how I make up the 45,550,0001. more in
detail. The Customs in the preceding year amounted to
19,183,000/. I calculate them, for this year, at 20,000,000/
The Excise for the last year amounted to 13,880,000/.
I calculate it for the next year at 13,270,0001.
These make a total of 33,630,000/. for the last year,
and for the present one of 33,270,0001. The Stamps last
year produced 6,998.000/. ; for the next year I take
them at 6,980,000/. The Taxes produced 43,312,000/. This
year, I take them at 36,000,000/. ;—the Post-office for the
last year was 1,660,000/. ; this year I expect from it
1,500,0001.—the miscellanies I take at 20,000/. Sir, I
now proceed to the expenditure. I take the expenditure
of the public debt, funded and not funded, including a portion
of the'interest on the loan for the relief of the West Indies,
which amounts to 28,540,000/. ; also a part of the Consolidated
Fund, 2,400,000/. Therefore the total expenditure will be
30,580,000/. If to this I add the annual grants for the army, navy,
and ordnance, amounting to 14,135,000/., it will make the total
expenditure 44,715,0001. , and upon that there will be a surplus
of 835,0001. Now., Sir, let no ono of my Hon. Friends behind me,
however anxious and solicitous they may be to ask for fur-
ther relief from taxation, but which cannot be conceded without
prejudice to the credit of the country—let them not assume
that because I have hitherto stated there was a surplus of
835,000/., therefore it would be competent for me, or my
duty, to propose a remission of taxation to that extent. Would to
God that I could, Sir I I can assure Hon. Gentlemen that no
portion of the duty of a Chancellor of the Exchequer
can be more agreeable than to propose reduction of taxation.
But, Sir, if we are bound to resist the demands that are made
upon us for such reduction we do so most reluctantly, and are
compelled to refuse only from a sense of duty, and we arc
compelled at times to stand against importunate calls
for reductions which are likely to endanger the credit of the
country.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") But I regret to say
that this surplus of 635,000/. will be found to crumble away
before the statements that are now to be made. The House
has determined tht.t we are to provide for the interests of the
West Indian proprietors, from the period those proprietors suf-
fered pecuniary loss. It is but- just; it was- intended at the
time, and if it were not •so, it would -be merely justice to.
the case, that in spite of ulterior considerations or construc-
tions of the law, we should have come to the conclu-
sion to which the House came last night.—(Hear, hear.)
This interest has not, up to the present time, been
cleared ; it has appeared as part of the balances
because it has appeared in the balance, by teason of the
exercise on the part of the Treasury of that power which was
vested in them, of applying certain portions of the surplus of the
year in the payment of the interest which augmented the ba-
lances in the Exchequer, and left us a fund ups; which it is
now competent for us to draw. Sir, this interest is to
be provided for from the Ist of August, 1834. I will
now, Sir, state the case most strongly as agaimit myself;
not that it is a case likely to arise, but I think, acting as I
do in discharge of my duty in making the statement, it is my
province to state the case, with respect to the liabili-
ties of the country, in the strongest way in which it
can be stated against myself, so as to erioc4rage no false hopes,
or hold out no delusive expectations. I shall afterwards explain
what the difference is between the case as stated and the case
which is likely to occur, and the House will see at once the ne-
cessity for making the one statement as well as the other, and
for explaining., to theft? and the coentry how the matter
really stands. Sir, the maximum amount of interest to which
we might be subject, until the payment of the awards from the
Ist of August, 1834, assuming the awards were to become
payable in September, would be 730,000/. Then supposing
fartivr, in order to raise the liabilities of the country to the
utmost, that thti whole of thP instalments alone were to
be paid out in the eouraa of the next three months,
and that the present interest on the whole
amount of
stock was to be incurred—that is the highest alternative—it
would amount to 280,925/., making a total charge on ac-
count of the West Indian compensation of 1,010,9251. ; against
which I have only the surplus of 835,000/. ; so that to that extent
citikw4n4 tiPif-rf OP ligq,Y, tiler' Ir'lliflllEi pat 4 slirPills '94 a
deficiency of 176,0.7 h.• /nit !VP q fiP pussibflity that such an
amount of charge will arise—it is an alternative which is
• not in the slightest degree likely to occur. On the con-
trary, Sir, not having the means of making an estimate—
being left, in a certain degree, to calculate and conjecture—
I should im4gine the amount, in place of being 1,010,925/.,
will not exceed 8 or'ioo;oCita.; and' that the neat' balaneo—the
real surplus that may be looked to—will be from 150,000/.
to 200,0001. The interest, of course, is greater in the
present year than it will be in any future year; and
supposing the remaining 5,000,000/. to be contracted for
at the same rate—which I shall continue to think,
notwithstanding the statement of my Hon. Friend, the Member
for Aberdeen, which is not only the favourable alternative, but

the most favourable alternative that can be looked to—sup-
posing the 5,000,0001., remaining uncontracted for, to be con-
tracted for at the same rate, the charge in future
years, in place of being 1,010,000/. would only be 742,000/.
I hope that I have laid this statement fairly before the House.
I have tried to explain, as well as I can ; but if any gen-
man, in any future stage, shall wish for any further explanations,
I shall endeavour to give them-. I stated the amount of supply
to be 14,145,0001., and may state the items as follows :—Army
6,189,000/. ; Navy, 4,245,000/. ; Ordnance, 1,296,000/. ;
Miscellaneous Estimates, 2,405,000 L, making a total, as I be-
fore stated, of 14,145,0001. I shall now, before going through
the accounts of the revenue—and if Gentlemen will be
pleased to attend—l beg before they would as-
sume, or take for granted, that the amount of my
calculation of the revenue is justly made, and I will now state
the grounds of the calculation, and I intreat the attention of
the House to it; because, in the statements I am
about to make, there are two matters which are dis-
tinctly proved, both of them very important. These cal-
culations which I have made exhibit symptoms, and not only
symptoms, but proofs of the general well-being of the coun-
try, and of the soundness of the country in all its most im-
portant revenues, which cannot but be gratifying to all.—
( Loud cheers.) I beg first to draw attention to the depart-
ment of the Customs. I beg Gentlemen will attend to these
accounts, and recollect that I am dealing with quantities, not
in amounts of money. In order to prove the estimates of
twenty millions for the Customs, I must refer to a few of the
more important articles that pay the custom duty, and which
justify the conclusion to which I have come, and first with res-
pect to cotton wool. In 1833, the consumption of Cotton
wool, as appears from the Customs return, was 284,400,0001b5.
In 1834 it had increased to 297,007,000165., in 1835 it hAI risen
to 320,210,0001b5. Now, Sir, I believe that to those who know
the present state of the manufacturing districts of this coun-
try, it will not be thought that I am over sanguine if I have
concluded that the amount of the income from Cotton
next year will be as great as the last. In fact, the present
state of the manufacturing districts, the demand increasing as
it is, leads me to hope that it will be greater. But I have
taken the average of the last three years, and put it down at
310,000,0001 b. I will proceed to another circumstance, though
small in consumption, yet most important to be attended to in a
financial point of view—that is the article of oil. The duty on oil
was reduced, as Hon. Members know, and I will, with
the permission of the House, state what was the effect
of that. In 1833 the consumption was, in gallons,
1,131,000; in 1834 it was 1,178,000; and in 1835 it had in-
creased to 2,077,000 gallons. That therefore, Sir, shows
that the reduction in the duty has been particularly felt.
—( Hear.) Such being the case, I think the House
will not think me over sanguine, if I apprehend oil
will produce as much next year as it did in the
last ; but in order to do away with any delusion, I have
not calculated it at 2,077,000 gallons, but I have taken the
average of the year when it was 1,178,000. Then with
respect to coffee, that likewise has augmented, but I have
1. taken that at the average of the last three years. In
1832, the consumption of coffee was 22,398,0001b5. ; in 1833,
it was 22,798,0001b5. ; and in 1835 it was 23,800,0001b5. I have,'
estimated this at 22,348,0001b5. There is a reduction con-
templated in the duty on East India coffee, and if that
takes place the calculation is 'of course at an end. I now
come to the article of sugar, and it appears that the quan-
tity entered for home consumption in the year 1833 ,
was 3,687,600 hundred weight ; in 1834, 3,743,000 ; in 1835,
3,746,000 cwt.; and, in place of calculating upon a progressiiie
increase, and taking it merely at 3,726,000 cwt., being an axe-
' rage of those three years, I come now to one of the most important
articles in the whole of our subjects of revenue—one that has
been made the subject of legislation during the present ses-
sion—l allude to the article of tea. The amount miported in
the year 1833 was 30,720,000 lbs. • in 1834, 32,480,000 lbs. ;
in 1835, 35,580,000 lbs. ; and I only calculate for the Oirpose
of not deluding the House or the public, although I verily be-
lieve that a great increase in the consumption of this article
must take place in the present year ; but wishing, as I said,
rather to understate the amount, as I should be very much
rejoiced if I was taxed with having understated it, I
shall take the account at 36 millions of lbs.,
being only 500,000 more than the amount consumed last year.
The House will observe that all the cases I am dealing with
are from the sth of April to the sth of May in each year. I
must take the liberty of stating to the House that I do really
think I might be entitled to bring into this balance sheet a
very considerable increase of revenue on the article of tea
beyond that I have stated, and I wish to state the grounds on
which that calculation is made. If there be an alteration
in the antics I have grounds for inferring an increase,
because the consumption of tea has been gradually increasing
in this country for a great number of years, and there is nothing
in the condition of the country that forbids me to hope that
even without an alteration in the law that gradual increase
should continue. The progress has been quite wonderful :
In the year 1824, the quantity was 23,000,0001b5.
1825
1826 ..
1827
1828
1829
1830
1831
1832
1833
1834
and in the year ending April 1835, it amounted to 35,580,000
lbs. If nothing occurred to alter this state of things, there
could be no doubt that the House might anticipate a great in-
crease in the consumption of tea. But what has occurred
since ? We know perfectly well from the purchases
made, and the extent of competition in the trade, which has
lowered the upset prices, that the amount of tea to be brought
in, must inevitably be much increased, and that the sales next
year'must be much larger. But that is hypothetical, and I shall
therefore take no credit for it, as it is a calculation that I cannot
rely upon. Well, Sir, if Tea augment, if Sugar augment, and
if Coffee augment—all are to be taken into consideration.
I trust I have shown to the House that I have not overstrained
or overcalculated the figures which 1 have laid before
you. There is only one other article, Sir, to which I wish to
call the attention of the House. It is that of Tobacco, and it
S increasing.
Mr. HUME was understood to say—Take off more of the
tax and it will increase further.

Mr. RICE—I know my Hon. Friend says, take off the duty
if you want to increase the consumption. That would be all
very well if we had a real bona fide surplus to deal with.
The proper way to deal with it was to reduce that class of
duties upon which you may calculate upon an increasing
duty—that is, what my principle is. I know my Hon. Friend,
the Member for Middlesex thinks that there is no good
done to the country, if upon a reduction of duty, the duty
collected remains the same ; but I say that a great deal of
good is done to the country. Say that I was able to raise
20 millions upon only 20 millions of lbs., but that I reduced
the duty one-half, and yet raised 20 millions ; but upon 40
millions of lbs. will any man say I do not good to
the country ?—( Cheers.) Before I pass from the Customs,
I wish to call the attention of the House to one other re-
duction.

Mr. HUME—You have not given us the tobacco yet.
Mr. RICE—I beg your pardon, Sir. The tobacco in 1833
was 20,362,0001b5. ; in 1834, 20,990,0001b5. : while in 1835
it was 21,483,0001b5. Now, Sir, for the next year I take it at,
21,483,0001b5. The growth of tobacco was supposed to be naPtler
of indulgence, as if the trade of the Colonies was not always a
subject of importance to the mother country, and the produce
of British labour in foreign lands was not of value, Sir, I am
inclined to think, as long as England is a nation, that
the contrary will be esteemed to bo tho ease.—( Hear.) Then
we have to notice the reduction-Upon oils and fruits, and it is
curious to see the reductions : currants, for instance, in 1832,
was 142,0001. in 1833, it was 140,000/. ; then a reduction
was proposed which has not taken effect long, but it has con-
siderably increased the consumption, and WQ ;hall see, I be-
lieve, the trade in every case inoreasing, in proportion
to the reduction, with a concurrent increase of the
revenue alsQ,-,-( Hear, bear,) I have already referred to oils;
and, in short, the experiments tried last year justified ray
Noble Friend in the course he has taken. I cannot pass to
the Customs Duty, without observing that the introdnetion
of the Corn Duties have been advantageous, and that Hon. Gen-
tlemrta tyiil app 014 the oomparison is still more cheering with
respect to the amount of the duties. In 1827 the amount was
786,000/. ; in 1829 it was 898,0001. ; whereas in 1833 it
was but 35,000/., and in 1814 Only 19,000/. This shews
the balance of tilo general trade, independent of the
c gni trade, to be in a satisfactory state. The next great
branch of the country to which I shall refer, is the Excise
revenues, and I shall endeavour to lead the Committee
to this conclusion at least, that the calculations are fair and
candid, I shall endeavour to prove that the internal state of
the country is improving, from the state of the Excise and the
increase in the consumption of excisable articles, such as malt,
paper, soap, spirits, ,54e, The produce last year was 7,742,0001.
I take thIA year to be 7,750,000/. The average of malt for the
last three years was 4,903,000/. ; I take the same to be the case
this year. Irish spirits is ratitcpan Important article, because one
on which my Nolllo Friend tried a considerable experiment,
find I will tell the house the result of it. In 1834 it was
1,514,000/, there is an estimated loss of 100,000/., which
will give us 1,415,000/. I will show the House that this
is not below the mark. The reduction of duty was from
3s. 4d. to 2s. 4d. per gallon ; it took place from the Ist Sep-
tember, 1834. I am able to compare the periods from the Ist
Sent. to the ath July, 1834, and from the Ist Sept. 1834,
to the sth July last, and I will just give the comparison be-
tween the 3s. 4d. and 2a. 4d. duties. In the first period the
number of gallons consumed wr,a 't,343,708; in the second
period (the correspgmling one) was 10,280,000 gals. ; and, cal-
FlNtlng 1-oth 'fbr the month of July alone, the amount will be
11,200,013 gals. ; so that we shall have actually received from
the 2s. 4d. duty 40,0001, a year more than by the 3s. 4d. duty.
We proposed a reduction from 3s. 4d. to 2s. 4d. the gallon
upon spirits consumed in Ireland. It was stated that the quan-
tity rose from 8 millions to 10 millions, and that if it should rise
to 12 millions, the revenue would gain 40,0001. by the reduc-
tion. It had aIWAYS 14 millions, and I calculate that it
wilii;e4co 12,tim,000 gallons in a short time. I wish now to call
the attention of the House to the more general articles of ex-
cise consumption, and coming to whet is called consumption,
I must state that the phrase doe* not strictly apply to some
of the elements—to auctions, and bricks for instance.—
(A laugh.) I have made a calculation, taking the
avprPao coniumptiott of three years, ending the 9th
of April, 1834, compared with the actual consumption
of the last year. In auctions the increase of duty has been
12 per cent. ; on bricks 11 per cent. ; on glass, taken ge-
nerally, 14 per cent. ; in hops 21 per cent. ; licenses 4 per
cent, ; malt, 3 per cent. ; paper, the first class, 7 per
cent. ; second class, the same ; mill-boards, the same ;
and satin paper, 17 per cent. ; hard soap, 15 per cent. ;
spirits 7 per cent., tea 18 pdr cent., vinegar 13 per cent.

There is only one single artiela in the whole excise in which
there is not a distinct increase. There is only one article which
has fallen off, and that is soft soap. lam inclined to attribute
this falling off to the substitution of cheaper oil in manufactures
but this is a conjecture of my own. In this article there was a
reduction of one per cent. There was only this one small ar-
ticle in which there was any loss, and this, which amounted
to one per cent., was, in some measure accounted for.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) This, however, proves a most ma-
terial fact, and it is utterly impossible to believe, whatever may
be said, that this increase of consumption upon all articles of
comfort and necessity can go on in a country unless there is a
great increase of public property---(we believe, for we did not
catch the word from the great cheering that followed it.)
With respect to the stamps, or consolidated taxes, I consider
that there is a diminution, compared with the last year,
and that was in consequence of the reduction of the
house taxes. The reductions which have taken place, I
have calculated, as free as possible from doubt, that
these should be estimated at 3,558,000/. The last
quarter has produced 1,500,0001., and this total would bring
up the amount of the revenue in that department ;
and we have made a reduction in the expense of collection to
the amount of 22,000/ In the Stamp Bill which I shall
bring in either to-night or to morrow, I mean to give some ad-
ditional facility to persons entering into compositions. Sir, as
to the Stamps, the estimate for the year is 6,926,000/. The
receipt for the July quarter is 1,780,000/. There has been
some falling off in the Stamp department, but that has
been chiefly with respect to legacies, and which has
arisen from casual circumstarices ; there were two enormous
sums paid into the revenue on account of the legacies of the
late Duke of Sutherland ; but the property on which duty was
paid amounted to no less than 6,812,949/. for one single
quarter, and this, too, relates to town duty, inde-
pendently of the country duty, and this I allude
to, as exhibiting such a marvellous state of increase as I believe
no other country can show. With respect to the Post-office, I
rely upon my Honourable Friend and his colleague for put-
ting that establishment on -a good footing. The mail-coach
contract with which they have begun, shows to them and
the public what may be done hereafter and accomplished,
and I am quite sure that a perseverance upon the same sys-
tem, and carrying it through the whole department, will lead
to results which will enable whoever are to make a finan-
cial statement next year, to state that which will be sa-
tisfactory to the House.—( Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I wish to
call the attention of the House, with a view to 'their calcula-
tions as to the future means which exist in this country fn
meeting ail future payments—l wish to call your attenti.bn to
the peculiar state of the public debt at the presentinoment,
as compared with it at former times. The House, very
wisely, I think, under the peculiar state of the case, felt
that it was not expedient to keep up an amount of
taxation for the purpose of meeting a large sinking fund.
Is it better to leave this money in the hands of the people to
promote the general well-being of the country, and increase
its credit, tending thereby to lower the interest of money,
and enable you to act as you may safely act, upon the interest
of your debt—or is it a wiser course to raise more
than you want, and then apply it in the reduction of the prin-
cipal sum? The principle of purchasing terminable annuities was
the best way, in my opinion, and that principle had gone on to a
considerable extent. For instance, if the House will compare the
situation of the debt in 1816 with the state of the debt in 1834,
it will show the effect of Adopting that principle. In 1816 I
the total amount of the interest of the debt was 32,457,000/,
of which 1,894,000/. was terminable annuities ; in 1834
the total interest of the debt amounted to 28,462,000/.,
'of which terminable annuities amounted to 4,287,000/. ;
so that in point of fact, in 1816 the terminable annuities
bore to the permanent debt the proportion of one to.
sixteen, whereas in the present year they bore the propor-
tion of one to seven. Those who were anxious for the credit
of the country, will think this a most gratyfying
(Cheers. ) I wish that, during the time of war, when the funds
were low, that this country had created, not a permanent debt,
but Long Annuities.—(Loud cheers.) If such a course
had been adopted, the country would have been in a
very different state to which it at present Hear.)
However, what had been done, is a most important
approach towards the payment of the debt. That was one
of the things which induced me, in contracting the present
loan, to make a considerable portion of that loan in annuities.
But there is another point—it proves that this country still
preserues its credit, and that the resources of England are
not only unimpaired but are increasing. This is highly im-
portant—l allude to that portion of the charge called
the dead weight. It was the object, that on the re-
duction of the great establishments, civil and military,
of the country, there was a point, a gradual point,
up to which the dead weight would be increased by it.
There is also what might be termed a pivot---( Hear, and a
laugh)—at which the line will descend as rapidly as it had
got up. I should be sorry to be misconceived in dealing
upon this subject.—( Hear, hear.) I know full well that this
House will not misunderstand me.—( Hear, hear.) But
I rejoice to say that the dead weight is diminishing—
that it has passed its maximum, and is now considerably
reduced.--4 Hear, hear, hear.) If I rejoice in this, as being
a benefit in point of fact, I am sure no person will believe that
I, am looking to the deaths- of the soldiers and sailors who have
served their country, and I am sure that no Honour-
able Member of this House would express any satisfaction
at such a circumstance.—( Hear.) I shall take the half-pay,
superannuations, and pensions payable at the War Office
together. I shall take the Army and Ordnance, Navy and
Civil departments at once. The maximum of the Navy and
Ordnance was 4,927,000/ —( An Hon. Member—what year ?)
I believe the maximum occurred in the year 1831. I now
find that the maximum oecurred in the year 1827, when
it amounted to 4,971,000/. In the year 1832 it was
4,811,000/, in the year 1833 it was 4,670,000/, showing a
gradual reduction during these three years, and I have no
kind of doubt that this charge is in progress of, gradual
reduction. I now come to the half-pay, taking the list
paid at the Army Pay-office separately. I sec that it is
reduced from 1,485,000/ , which it was on an average of four
3 ears ending in 1826, to 1,328,826/, so that I find, in every
shape, most important evidence with respect to the future
financial proceedings and prosperity of this country.__.
Now, Sir, I proceed, and I am happy to be able to inform the
House, that it is the last topic I shall allude to, but it is one
of the very utmost importance, and it is, that all the statements
which I have already made apply—l mean the general calcu-
lations as to the condition of the country, and the
general scale of the great interests of the country—and
the first, Sir, to which I will allude is the Commerce. I shall
not go into any minute examination of this subject. I will be
quite satisfied with the results shown in the paper now in my
hands. The full official value of all the exports of 1784,
amounted to only 15,000,000/.—l mean the official value, be-
cause that shows the quantity of exports. Now, Sir, the full value
of the exports of England, measuring the increase of our tradep-.„
.:
these values do by showing the quantity—the average fr the
four years 1827, 28, 29, and 30, amounted to 65.9'30. '
000/.
Now, Sir, I conie to the four years, it eluding n
1831
and 1834, and in place of' these four years giefine. those viecrareasgese,
they produce actually 78,179,000/, si7owin, actual
of 12,849,0004 and in point offp7
jt betweef one period and the
other, between 1785 and 1
-87 A, she wing a full increase of one-
fifth. Among one the best modes of estimating the condi-
tions of the P9(l'el.e, of the productive and the working classes,
is, by rPf-arring to the accounts of the Savings Barks.
Ty' results are of a most important character ; they are made
up to the close of 1834, which is the year to which I must
refer. I find the number of depositors in the higher
clas, es much greater, and the lower class of depo-
sitories decreasing. He would at once be led to the conclu-
sion that there must be something in the system which led the
higher classes to deposit their money in these banks while
there was a pressure on the lower classes; but the result of
the paper 1 hold in my hand sii)ws din ectly the contrary.

SUMMARY OF DEPOSITORS, &C., IN SAVINGS' BANKS IN ENG-,
LAND, %VALES, AND IRELAND, ON NOV. 20, 1834.

Increase or Decrease Amount of
Depositors since Nov. 1833. Investments.
21;1;.93 under 20/. each 16,718 inc £1,849,161
145,827 under 501. each 11,839 inc 4,467,835
00,297 under 101. each '3,842 inc 4,129,245
20,109 under 150/. each
10,422 under 200/ each
3,215 above 2001. each
-- - -•

501,163 33,1/12 inc. £15,430,814
inlaceresua% idnepteitnetri
of 11,5o6f8dJositorb during the last year of -33,trit, and
The Right Hon. Gentleman continued—Herd was an increase
of 956,8611., the great portion of which, it was clear, be-
longed to the poorer classes, and he was satisfied that it was
one of the best indications that could be afforded of an im-
provement in the condition of those classes. There was an
increase of seven per cent. in the number of depositors, and
five per cent. in the amount of deposits. He recollected the
observations of his Hon. Friend on this subject, and he was
sure that the result must be as gratifying to his Hon. Friend
as it was tohimself. He repeated that he was convinced that
this was one of the most satisfactory proofs that could be ad-
duced of the well-being of the labouring classes. He thought
that it was a complete answer to those who had charged him
with making exaggerated statements on this subject. He ad-
mitted that it was almost as bad to make exaggerated state-
ments on one side as on the other. If, however, he were dis-
posed to be guilty of any degree of exaggeration, it would
rather be in looking at the cheerful side of a subject, and re-
garding with pleasure the prospect of improvement, instead of
following the example of some Hon. Members, who were
evidently repining ever the prospects of the country, and say-
ing, notwithstanding appearances, all was nought and
wretchedness.— (Hear.) This was one proof of the well-
being of certain classes—but he would refer to another proof
in the local improvements that had been made in various
parts of the country. He need not say a word as to what
extent these might be a source of future improvement—
but he wished to advert to the fact, that the country had
stepped in, for the purpose of aiding these local improvements,
by means of advances through the Exchequer Bill Loan Com-
missioners. These gentlemen had made advances for the pur-
pose of local improvements, such as roads, railroads, docks,
hridges, &c. ; improvements in cities and towns, and also in
counties to the amount of 4,602,0001. This was the whole of
the assistance given by the State, and it had not only been un-
attended with loss, but a positive profit had accrued on the
Exchequer bills advanced.
.He found that it was impossible
for him to allude to this subject without referring to the im-
portant services rendered to the country by those gentlemen
who had consented to act as Commissioners. The conduct
pursued by these gentlemen was a satisfactory proof of the
public spirit of the people of this country. Many of these
gentlemen were connected with the City of London, and they
gave their important services, and took upon themselves the
trouble and responsibility of performing the duties of their
office, without any hope or expectation of emolument. Nothing,
in his opinion, could be more honourable to these gentlemen,
or more indicative of a high moral feeling on the part of the
people of this country.—( Hear.) He might perhaps reason-
ably be supposed to have been guilty of some exaggeration in

the view he had'taken of the well-being of the country after
the King's speech at the commencement of the Session, and the
statements made about that time by certain parties in that
House. According to what was then stated, one of the most
important interests in the country was in anything but a state
of prosper ity. He admitted that there existed grounds for
what they then heard, for which he said that the country go"
nerally was in a state of prosperity. He did not deny that
pressure was felt in some classes of the community. With
respect to what the agricultural interest demanded he would
only observe that if it were not in the power of the Govern-
ment and the House to yield to them the relief which they
required it did not arise from indifference to their claims, or
want of sympathy in their sufferings ; but that this Govern-
ment, as well as the last, were controlled by duties which.
prevented them doing so. When they felt it to be their duty
to refuse to remove the great duty imposed on a portion cri.
agricultural produce, he meant the malt tax, they did so on
grounds which all practical statesmen, both in office and out,
agreed to be correct. They were convinced that if this im-
post were removed on the whole, agriculture would not be
relieved.—( Hear, hear.) lie was, however, inclined to think
that a measure then in progress of operation would give.*
real and substantial relief to affriculture. He was now Te.-e-
-pared to speak with more confidence than he did befril;, of
the advantages which would result from the Act to *;hich he
alluded to the agriculturists of England, and, abuy'a all, to that
portion cf the agricultural interest which ne,',v suffered the
most. He felt no hesitation in saying tint no reduction in
taxation that could be made, would
11:0'..ce anything like that
degree of benefit or relief to ftgricY.ltture, which they would
derive from the reform of the poo' Hear, hear.) 110
I=.
found from information that he
that had obtained two months ago,
the improvement that
load taken place was highly impor-
tant, and this had been confirmed from inquiries he had since
made, and he was e-aabled to verify the statement he was about
to read to the P.ouse
" 1. Abir.- don Union, commenced January 1, 1835. The
expenditure during the three months ending April 1835, was
1,23 Ci., and upwards; and during the three months ending
July 1835, was 776/.., showing a reduction of more than 35
per cent.

" 2. Fatringdon Union, commenced the 7th of February,
1835. Ten weeks afterwards we find that 148 persons had had
the offer of the workhouse, of whom only 15 accepted it, and
out of them 11 left it. Inquiries were made as to the remain-
der of the large number of 148, and it was ascertained posi-
tively that a very large proportion of them, three-fourths, had
obtained employment.—( Hear, hear.) •
"3. Newhaven Union, commenced 7th of February, 1835-
This morning our assistant Commissioner writes as follows
It gratifies me to be enabled to inform your Board, that
the guardians of the Newhaven Union, by representing to the
employers of labourers in agriculture, the blind policy of con-
tributing unprofitably towards the poor-rates, those sums
which would be spent profitably as wages, have induced
them to employ all the idle hands, and there is not at this
moment one able-bodied man receiving relief from the poor-
rates throughout the Union.'
" Bradford Union, commenced the 28th of March, 1835-,
The guardians began by a close examination of the list 43‘
1,200 paupers, and detected a great many impositions. The
Vice-Chairman of the Board considers that the present actual
saving in consequence of this examination, and of adopting
the system of partial relief in kind, is not less than 2,0001•
per annum; and that a further saving to the same amount
may be confidently expected.
" Alton Union, commenced the 3d of April, 1835. The
accompanying document (B) will show the saving in several
parishes of that union to be more than forty per cent.; and
the fact that wages have advanced in two of those parishes,
in consequence of that saving, is uncommonly satisfactory. •
" Smith Stoneham Union, commenced the 27th of March-
Here I find that the weekly relief is reduced one half. With
regard to litigation, the Board have as yet no official informa-
tion before them on the subject ; but it is notorious that it i 3
enormously reduced, so much so as to be a source of considera-
ble inconvenience to Barristers attending Sessions. I venture
to say that I have no doubt of the poor expenditure being re-
duced nearly fifty per cent. in all those districts which come
under our regulations—comprehending, eventually, the whole
of England and Wales. At the end of the period of five years
and a session, for which our Commission is appointed, the ex-
penditure of the poor, instead of being six millions per annuli],
and upwards, will only be three millions per annum, and up'
wards. It is more difficult to give an opinion respecting the
rate at which this reduction. will take place, but I shall be
much disappointed if the year ending March, 1838, does net
show a diminution of 1,530,0001., as compared with the year
ending March, 1834." It appeared, then, that the market Pr
labour, when left to itself, absorbed nearly the whole of the Pc?:
sons ho were formerly in the workhouse. He would ask to.'
Hon. Friend opposite, who had manifested great anxiety on the
subject, whether the benefit which had already arisen from til
union of parishes had not been nearly equal in these district:
to any that could result from the reduction of taxation;
It appeared, also, from the last statement he had reaw
that the new system of poor laws was likely, within a
short period, to benefit the agricultural interest to the es-
tent of 1,530,000/. a year. He had no doubt, if this Act
continued to be judiciously administered under the superin-
tendence of the Commissioners, that it would not be long be-
fore the poor rates would be reduced to one-half their present
amount. • He was not
,so much gratified that those who paid
the poor rates would benefit as on another
aeccount-vitis igre‘t
source of gratification was, became he believed that the OW
system of Poor Laws was infinitely more beneficial than the old,
system, to those who received the poor rates. If the monei
was left in the pocket of one class, that which was infinitely
more important was created in the other, namely, the inde-
pendent feeling of relying on their own exertions for the
means of support.—( Hear.) He contended, therefore, that
the people relieved by the Poor Laws would be mainly be-
nefitted by the new law, while those who contributed to the
rates would be relieved. There was only one test more to
which he would refer, to show the improvement that had takes
place in the condition of the people. He had referred to the
savings banks and poor rates ; but there was another test which
applied more particularly to the trading classes—he meant the
number of bankruptcies and insolvencies. It appeared frorn
the return that he held in his hand that there had been
gradual diminution the last three years :

The number of persons declared ban)::rupts in the Landoll
Gazette for the years following, viz.-i_
1830
1831
•
1832
1833
1834 . ..:
1835 Ist August
The n"::idier of persons who have declared themselves ill-
-9°lve".. for the like period, viz. : _

1830
1831
1832
1833
1832
1835 .to the Ist of August
Number of persons discharged as insolvent debtors:-
1832
1833
1834
There were other tests besides to which he had alluded,'
which would prove the general well-being of the country, bu,,
he thought these to be of great importance. Before quittia'c'
this part of his subject he would take the opportunity of sayia
a few words with regard to the manufactures of the country'
He was happy to state, with regard to these, that the Gendhe-,
men who had been appointed Commissioners of factories 1-1
Government were one arid all agreed in their statements, bet'
of facts and figures, that an increase had taken place, partieu:
lady in the north, to an extent far greater than could ha
been hoped for, and that a future increase, even still more ~“1
ss
vourable might be calculated upon. He would riot trespre7t
upon the House with the details of the improvement, b`'`,,
he would read one paper exhibiting the extent of theincreas"
in the West of England, that was in the counties of Gletl;
tester, Wilts, and Somerset. In Gloucester the increase 01,
seven per cent., in Wiltshire 25 per cent., and in Somerset,
s
shire 25 per cent., whilst the general average increase oa
about 11
.`per cent. In Ireland also manufactures eiere
on the increase ; many mills were in a state of being finished'
and lie had it upon the authority of one of the Commissiolns.
upon who .he could_ firmly. rely that ere long-they would
enabled to export mill-spun flax to Flanders to be manuf".,
tured. He was not at present prepared to make any COnsie
derable reduction of taxes, nor indeed did he think the Hone,
could expect him to do so, or that the state of the revenlid
would warrant it. He would never consent to a reduction...,
taxation inconsistent with the security of public credit
( Hear)—nor would he ever seek to acquire popularity Ore
gained—( General Cheers)—but still he thought that the la
were two or three points upon which without danger he COti,
afford some relief. In the early part of the session many Petit
tions had been presented to the House on the subject of sPi,.
licences, and his Hon. and Learned Friend opposite ( Sir
Follett) brought the question before the House,, 'cut I.Pagreedt
mately areed to leave the measure in his (the Chancellorive
the Exchequer's) hands, on his promise that he would gijci
it his utmost consideration. He would not meddle with ter
principle of the measure of his Noble Friend—( we -J"D`c;
stood the Right Hen. Gentleman. to allude to Earl Spencejoi4
a measure which was countenanced by the opinion of the 0."
House, but he would endeavour to remedy any injustice a 4
inequality which might occur from tie carrying out a 00
principle. With respect to the increase of 50 per cent:
.05
those licenses, it would be admitted that it fell oppressi'rej
on those whose consumption of spirits was small coinP.ao.
with that of beer and other articles. It was too hard to L°. sa
pel those whose sale was so limited to take out licenses n"ci a
heavy a rate. He did, not think the great innkeepers ha 01
fair or just claim to such reduction, but only those wit° 9 for
small quantities, and had in but a few gallons at a till'eers..
the purpose of obliging and accommodating their custom
It was, he confessed, too hard to call upon such as those s'v.ke
consumption was limited to a few gallons in the year to r.c,
out licenses at the full amount, and he would, theren7,o`►
although prepared to adhere to the principle of the 105
admit of a reduction which would afford relief to persons'sir
circumstanced. He hoped his Hon. and Lea: ned Friend for
W. Follett) would be satisfied with this, and not pre,sstbis
more. The reduction in the revenue in consequence oilti
would be about 40,0001., and the proposed relief weed to
tend to those whose consumption of spirits was limit
fifty gallons annually. There was another article of nor
eh
nufactures which, though already important, was one , wool 0
he thought capable of great improvement, and to wilier' 9 050
encouragement ought to be afforded, as well for the PT.t.SP ftp
of increasing its consumption at home as to promote jibe
reign sale--he meant the article of flint glass The state ase
revenue with regard to this article showed a very large inertohe
in the smuggling trade. The duty at present was 6d.ceizight;
pound, but on exported glass (as we understood th
Hon. Gentleman) a drawback of 7d. was allowed for wart
thus those who export paid in fact no duty. Thera°.