The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-27 00:00:00

PNEUMATIC DESPATCH BILL.

Mr. C. FORSTF moved that Standing Order 203 be
suspended in the case of the Pneumatic Despatch Company
Bill, and that the bill be read a second time to-morrow.—
Agreed to.
TACUMSHIN EMBANKMENT BILL.
On the motion of Mr. WHALLEY the following was
agreed to :—That Standing Order 204 be suspended in the
ease of the Tacumshin Embankment Bill, and that it be an
instruction to the committee of selection to appoint the
committee on the bill to sit and proceed on Friday.
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Sir J. TRELAWNY said he hoped the hon. member
(Mr. Newdegate) would not move his amendment which
was on the paper until after the house went into committee,
as it would be adopting an unfair course with reference to
he bill.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that he could not accede to
the wishes of the hon. baronet, as he would not be able to
move his amendment in committee. He would, however,
vary the terms of his motion, as it could not, from the hour
of the day, be fully discussed. The hon. member then
moved the following amendment :—" That this house will
to-morrow resolve itself into a committee, to consider the
propriety of establishing in lieu of church-rates, thence-
forth to be abolished, a charge on all hereditaments,
in
respect of the occupancy of which church-rates have been
paid within the last seven years; such charge to be levied
with the county rate at a uniform rate of poundage, the
occupier being in all cases entitled to deduct from his rent
the amount of the charge levied on his occupation, which
shall be Joaid to the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty,
who shall be empowered to receive and administer the same
for the purposes of church-rates ; and further, to consider
the propriety of constituting the incumbent and church-
wardens of every parish or district a corporation, having a
right to claim from the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty
in each year a sum equal to one year's charge on such
parish or district, which they shall be empowered to re-
ceive and to administer, with the concurrence of the
vestry, and under due supervision, as well as to
receive and administer any monies subscribed, or
an.y benefactions given, for the purposes of
ennrch-rates, or in commutation of such charge."
He considered that ina number of cases the voluntary prin-
ciple entirely failed and they should not impose an addi-
tional burden on re
impost. ty withdrawing an ancient and neces-
sary predicted that if the present bill were
palmed additional e
neroahments would be made on the insti-
tutions of the country and great constitutional alterations
effected.
Mr. DODSON hoped that the house would not accede
to the motion of the hon. member who had just addressed
the house. If they wanted to maintain an organised sys-
tem for the preservation of the fa of the curch they
should leave it to the parishioners themselves whether they
would or would not pay the rate,
Lord HEN LEY said the proposal made by the hon.
member for North Warwickshire of imposing
charge on the occupier was more objectionablea permanent
fl:laeven
the present system. He believed, from the stateof
inpublic
feeling and the votes of the house, that they might,
re-
ference to this measure, exclaim with the reformers of 1832,
" the bill, the whole bill, and nothing but the bill."
(Cheers.)
Sir J. TRELAWNY replied. He repeated the ate-
ment he frequently made, that his object in bringing for-
ward the bill was to put an end to the agitation that pre-
vailed in regard to church-rates, a result which all must
admit would be most desirable. He thought that any per-
son acquainted with human nature must feel satisfied that
if the church possessed the affections of the people it would
not suffer from the operation of the voluntary principle.
Sir M. FARQUHAR would not support any measure
for the abolition of church-rates which did not provide a
substitute. As there was a committee of the other house at
-present engaged in investigating this subject, he thought it
"%would be better to postpone the further consideration of the
luestion until they were in possession of the evidence
Nothieh had been taken before that committee. He sug-
ge‘eted therefore that the hon. baronet should postpone his
bill .till next session. (Cries of Oh, oh.)
e house then divided, and the numbers were—
For the mation for going into committee 191
Against
Majority —92
Vie • house then went into committee.
d J. MANNERS appealed to the hon. baronet (Sir
J. T relawny) not to proceed further with his bill. There

were seven members of the Government engaged in the
inquiry before the House of Lords, and he thought it would
not be acting with courtesy towards the Government if
they pressed forward the measure before the conclusion of
the labours of the committee. It was impossible to pass it
during the short remaining term of the session, as the
number of amendments was too great to afford them a rea-
sonable expectation of doing so, and therefore it was only a
waste of time to prolong discussion like the present, which
would lead to no practical result for the present.
After a few words from Mr. VANSITTART,
Sir J. TRELAWNY said he was determined to pro-
ceed with the bill, and not discontinue his exertions until
he accomplished his object.
In clause 1,
Mr. CROSS moved the following : —After " levied," leave
out 44 in, any parishis England or Wales," and insert " re-
spectively in the following cases in any parish in England
or Wales. Ist. No church-rate shall be made or levied in
any parish in which no church-rate has been made or levied
during the seven years next previous to the passing of this act.
2d. No church rate shall be levied upon any person who
shall deliver to the churchwardens, within one week after
the rate shall have been demanded of such person, a decla-
ration under his hand that he bona fie objects upon con-
scientious grounds to the payment of church rates : Pro-
vided always that no person so exempted from the payment
of any church rate shall be entitled to vote or act in vestry
in the parish in reference to the making, levying,
or application of any church rate, or the application
of any money applicable to the like purposes, unless
after signing such declaration he shall have paid
a church rate subsequently made in such parish.
3d. No church-rate shall be made for other than the fol-
lowing purposes, that is to say-1. Reparing and main-
taining the fabric of the parish church; 2. Repairing, fenc-
ing, and maintaining the churchyard or burial ground of
the parish church ; 3. Providing what is necessary for the
decent celebration of Divine service and the offices of the
parish church."
At ten minutes to four o'clock the. discussion was inter-
rupted, and the house resumed.
UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time, and passed.
The house then adjourned at four till six o'clock.

At a quarter past six, there not being 40 members pre
sent, the house adjourned until to-morrow.

---
PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—JULY 26.
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.
Order for committee read ; motion made, and question pro-
posed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That"
to the end of the question, in order to add the words
"this house will to-morrow resolve itself into a com-
mittee, to consider the propriety of establishing in lieu of
Church-rates, thenceforth to be abolished, a charge on all
hereditaments, in respect of the occupancy of which
Church-rates have been paid within the last seven years ;
such charge to be levied with the county rate at an
uniform rate of poundage, the occupier being in all cases
entitled to deduct from his rent the amount of the charge
levied on his occupation." Instead thereof : question
put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the question." The house divided—Ayes, 191;
Noes, 99.
- -

AYES-191.
Adam, W. P. Fitzroy, Rt. Hon H. Ogilvy, Sir J.
Alcock, T. Fitzwilliam, C. W. Onslow, Guildford
Angerstein, W. Foley, J. H. Packe, C. W.
Antrobus, E. Forster, Charles Paget, C.
Arnott, J. Fortescue, Hon. D. Paxton, Sir J.
Ashley, Lord Fox, W. J. Pechell, Sir G.
Ayrton, A. S. Freeland, H. W. Ferry, Sir Thos. E.
Bagwell, J. Garnett, W. J. Peto, Sir M.
Bailey, C. Gilpin, C. Pigott, Francis
E Ball, E. Glyn, G. C. Pilkington, James
Baring, H. B. Gower, F. L. Pollard UrquhartW
Baring, Thos. Geo. Graham, Sir J. R.g. Ponsonby, A.
Baxter, W. E. Greene, Capt. J. Pryse, Capt. E. L.
Bazley, Thomas Gregson, S. Pugh, D. (Carmar.)
Beach, W. W. B. Gurdon, B. Ramsden, Sir J. W,
Berkeley, H. Hadfield, Geo. Ricardo, 0.
Bigg-s, John Hanbury, R, jun. Ridley, G.
Black, Adam Handley, John Robertson, D.
Bonham-Carter, J. Hankey, Thomson Roebuck, J. A.
Brady, John Hardcastle, Jos. A. Rothschild,Baron L.
Brand, H. B. Hartopp, E. B. Russell, A. J. E.
Bright, J. Heneage, G. St. Aubyn, J.
Briscoe, J. I. Hennessy, J. P. Salt, Titus
Brocklehurst, John Heygate, Sir F. Schenley, B
Brown, James Hoare, Joseph Scholefield, W.
Browne, Lord:J. T. Hodgkinson, G. Scott, Sir W.
Bruce, H. A. Horsman, E. Scrope, G. P.
Buckley, Maj.-Gen. Howard, Hon. C. Shelley, Sir J. V.
Buller, J. W. Humberstone, P. S. Smith, J. B.
Butler, C. S. Hutt, W. Smith, A.
Byng, Hon. G. H. C. Ingham, R. Somerville, Sir W.
Calthorpe, F. H. Jackson, W. Staniland, M.
Cavendish, Hon. W. James, Edwin Stansfeld. J.
Clifford, C. C. Jervoise, Sir J. Stuart, Lord P. J.
Clifford, H. M. Johnstone, Sir J. Stuart, Major
Cobbett, J. M. Keating, Sir H. Sullivan, M.
Cobden R. Kershaw, J. Sykes, Col. W. H.
Coke, W. C. King, Hon. L. Talbot, C. R. M.
Colebrooke, Sir T.E. Kinglake, A. W. Taylor, Hugh
Coningham, Wm. Kingscote, Lt.-Col. Tite, Wm.
Cowper, W. F. Knatchbull-Hugess Tollemache, Hon.F.
Craufurd, E. H. J Labouchere, H. Tomline, G.
Crook, Joseph Langston, J. H. Traill, G.
Dalglish, Robert Langton, 11..G.1 Turner, J. A.
Davie, Sir H. R. F. Lawson, W. Vandeleur, Col.
Davie, Col. F. Lee, W. Vivian, H. 11.
Deasy, Richard Lewis, Sir G.C., Bt. Walter, John
Dillwyn, Lewis L. Locke, J. Walters, It.
Dodson, John G. Lyons, Dr. Watkins, J. L. V.
Douglas, Sir C. M'Cann, J. Wemys 3, J.
Duke, Sir James Mackie, J. Western, T. S.
Dunbar, Sir Wm. Maguire, J. F. Westhead, B.
Duncan, Viscount Marsh, M. H. Whalley, G. H.
Dundas, Frederick Marshall, W. Whitbread, S.
Dunlop, A. M. Martin, J. Wickham, H. W.
Egerton, A. F. Massey, W. N. Williams, W.
Egerton, E. C. Mitchell, T. A. Wilson, J.
Ellice, E., jun. Mildmay, H. Wise, J. A.
Ennis, John Mills, T. Woods, Henry
Evans, T. W. Ditonson,,W. J. Wrightson, W. B.
Ewart, William Morris, D. Wynne, C. G.
Ewing, H. E. C. Napier, Sir C.
Farquhar, Sir M. Norris, J. T. TELLERS.
Fermoy, Lord worth, F. Trelawny, Sir J. S.
Finlay, A. S. O'Donoghue, D. Henley, Lord