The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, APRIL 3, 1835.

should not presume in language of his own to show the
House the great purposes of religion and of charity to which
the Church revenues should be applied, but he would, with the
permission of the House, read an extract from a work couched
in language much more eloquent than any he could use, and
more fitting to be addressed to an enlightened assembly, such as
he then had the honour to address. He hoped the House
would bear with him while he read an extract from a work of
Doctor Doyle, as to the effect of Poor Laws in that country.
That Learned Divine said " You complain of Rack Rents and
of Tithes—of want of employment and of the ejection
of poor tenants from their farms—.there is but one de-
cisive remedy, and that was a legal provision for the
poor. Let every one, therefore, who wishes to see the
competition for land cease, and that the poor should obtain
employment—let every one who desired to see the widow
clotlied, the orphan fed, and the stranger taken in—let who-
ever is anxious that the laws of nature should not be set at
nought, and that the laws of grace should be fulfilled—let him
petition Parliament for a lcjil provision for the poor." To
words so eloquent, it would be unneceq.ary for him to add—any
language of his would weaken that effect. He should not de-
tain the House, except to explain that if the Illation of the
Noble Lord was carried, to move in committee that
the words general education should be left out in order to
add " for the relief of the poor as Parliament should deem
fit."

Here there was a moment's pause, when
Mr. RICHARDS resumed—He had spoken so much on
the one side and the other, that he had been reminded by an
Hon. Member beside him, that he had not stated on which
side he should vote.--( Laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear.")
He begged now to say that seeing nothing but mischief to
Ireland in the proposition of the Noble Lord--(Loud cheers
from the Ministerial benches)—feeling that all the united
wisdom of the party with which the Noble Lord was joined,
after weeks and months of deliberation, had merely ended in
proposing a measure which would be inimical to the Protest-
ant religion, and which would give rise to party dissensions,
and eventually lead to civil war—( Laughter, and cries of—
hear)-...when he recollected all - this, he felt that he should
not be doing his duty to the people of Ireland and the coun-
try, if he did not join heart and hand in deprecating the mo-
tion of the Noble Lord.—( Cries of " Oh ! and hear, hear.")
Mr. Serjeant WILDE assured the House that he had so
great a respect for it, that if he now trespassed upon its atten-
tion, he would make the best return he could by confining
himself simply and plainly to what appeared to be the merits
of the question now under consideration. The importance
of that question had been admitted, and could not be denied
by any individual who had addressed the Chair, and it had
been said that that question would go forth to the British pub-
lic, and that it had even been insinuated that that public would
take a very different view of it from that which he confidently
anticipated would be entertained by the majority of that House.
As the present position of the question did not appear to be in
his opinion a correct one, he felt anxious to state his views of
it, believing that a great misconception had gone abroad
upon the subject. Notwithstanding the statements that
had been made of the great importance of the question,
some pains had been taken to embarrass and misrepresent it.
—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He knew nothing of the
the objects and views of the Noble Lord who had brought the
question under the consideration of the House, further than as
he had learnt them from the statement of the Noble Lord.
When it was said that the question before the House was un-
fairly brought on, in order to try in an underhand way, whether
that House had any confidence in Ministers or not, he must say
that he was obliged to dissent. He trusted that the vote
of that night would be given with reference to that question,
under all the circumstances in which they were placed.--
( Cheers.) He considered that it was a question very fairly
presented to the House for the purpose of tryingthat question.
The Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) had repeatedly stated
that he was anxious tl:at that question should be put to the
House at once and fairly-(cheers)—and he ( Serjeant Wilde)
was convinced of his sincerity, because it really appeared as if
the Right Hon. Baronet was now in office for the purpose of
showing under how much opposition it was possible for a man
to remain.—( Laughter.) But as he ( Serjeant Wilde) did
not think that the Right Hon. Baronet ought to be possessed
of the confidence of the House, then, in his opinion, the ques-
tion was now most fairly and properly brought on, in order that
the sense of the House might be taken. The talents and
ability of the Right Hon. Baronet were well known to the
country ; and that House knew that no talent belonging to
him was so great as that of facility in debate, and if such mo-
tion were made, if they put it at once as confidence, or no con-
fidence, he ( Sergeant Wilde) knew in what way the Hon.
Baronet would have made use of that argument, and at once
had told them in many shapes there was nothing before the
House to justify it to come to such a vote. The Right
Hon. Baronet, he -was aware, took the Government upon his
shoulders--under peculiar circumstances. He believed that
personal ambition had nothing to do with it—did not in-
fluence him in taking office, but that he had done so from
a sense of public duty----( Cheers from the Opposition)—and
he ( Sergeant Wilde) trusted that the same sense of public
duty would induce him to retire from office, after that House
hat, given an unequivocal vote as to whether they had con-
fidence in his Majesty's Ministers or not. The Right Hon.
Baronet had said, soon after entering into power, said in a
public manner that lie did not understand what was meant by
" the principles of the Reform Bill." In his ( Sergeant
W.'s) opinion no man was capable in these days of carrying
on the Government of this country who avowed such igno-
rance. The Right lion. Baronet had asked what these prin-
ciples were. He ( Sergeant W.) was not aware whether that
question had ever been answered or not, but he had not the
slightest hesitation in stating that his opinion was, that the
principles of that Bill were to bring the public institutions of the
country under the controul of a Legislature freely elected, in or-
der that they should be reviewed ; when they did not answer the
purposes for which they were instituted, they should be modified
in such a manner as to suit the altered circumstances and
tastes of the country.—( Cheers.) These in his opinion were
the principles of the Reform Bill. He owned that he enter-
tained some doubt of the principles upon which the Right
Hon. Baronet intended to carry on his Government at first,
but that doubt was dissipated when Parliament met, and he ob-
served the party by whom he was supported—( Hear, hear)—
when he perceived that the Right Hon. Baronet ranked amongst
his supporters those gentlemen who denied the existence of
any one of those abuses, either in Parliamentary representa-
tion, or any other department of the Constitution of which the
country had so long complained, and which it was so recently
proposed to remedy. It was true enough that the Right Hon.
Baronet might be a Reformer, for every one was a Reformer
now-a-days.—( Cheers.) But the question was what is the
mode of estimating an abuse, for the ambiguity lay not in whe-
ther a man was a reformer or not, but in his discovering and
estimating what was really an abuse ?—( Hear, hear.) When,
then, he observed the respectable and Hon. Gentlemen by
whom the Right Hon. Baronet was supported, and called to
mind their estimate of some of the most important institu-
tions of the country, ho made up his mind that it was quite
impossible for the Right Hon. Baronet, even if he carried on
the Government by the strength of that party, to carry into
effect those useful and efficient reforms that were required.—
( Cheers.) When the Right Hon. Baronet stated that one of-
the reasons why he should receive the confidence of the
House was, that he possessed facilities for carrying measures in
the House of Lords..and he begged to be understood that he
was not one of those to whom the Right Hon. Baronet re-
ferred, when he said there were some persons anxious to see a
collision between this House and the House of Lords—no, he
deprecated such an event, and also the doctrine of " measures
not men_."

Mr. CHARLTON here rose from the Ministerial side, and
said he wanted to speak to order. The Honourable Gen-
tleman had stated to the House that this was not a
question as to the Irish Church, but it was also as to
the competency of Ministers. Now he (Mr. C.) humbly pre-
sumed that it was no such thing ; and he appealed to the
Speaker to set the Hon. and Learned Gentleman right—
( Cries of " Order" proceeded from all parts of the House,
which compelled the Hon. Gentleman to sit down.)
As soon as silence was restored, the SPEAKER called out--
" Mr. Sergeant Wilde."—( Loud cheering. )
Mr. Sergeant WILDE resumed—He should not turn
aside at the present moment to answer the Hon. Gentleman
opposite, but pursue the argument he had commenced. He
had noticed Ministers' recommendation to the House, and he
was about to observe, that it appeared to him to be something
like dictation to the House of Commons by the House of Lords.
And if an individual possess the confidence of the House of
Commons that was no matter, unless be also possessed the
confidence of the Hotise of Lords. This did not appear to
him to be a Constitutional doctrine, or one calculated to re-
commend Hon. Gentlemen opposite to the House of Com-
mons.—( Hear, hear, hear.) When, therefore, Parliament
met under these circumstances, it became of extreme impor-
tance to know what were the views of the Government, and
of the party by whom they were supported, and what was
their scale of estimating abuses. Did they consider that I
the Test and Corporation Act was no abuse—that the dis-
abilities of the Catholics were no abuse—( Cheers)—that the
existence of slavery was no abuse—( Renewed cheering)—and
that the state of Parliamentary representation was no abuse?
—(Tremendous cheering.) What was the use of their telling
us that they are Reformers. We are not the better for it. the
country was not the safer..(Loud cheers)—if the power of
perception and the mode of estimating abuses which they pos-
sess did not enable them to see abuses in such things ? In this
state of things he rejoiced that the Noble Lord brought for-
ward this question, for it enabled them to ask Right Ho-
nourable Gentlemen on the other side did they con-
sider a sinecure Church an abuse ?—(Tremendous cheering.)
Did the principles on which they were prepared to carry on
the Government—did their reforming principles induce them to
estimate the present state of the Irish Church with its exces- ,
sive revenues and limited duties—such an abuse as required
amendment—if not, their principles of reform, were not such as
entitled them to confidence.—( Great cheering.) He begged
pardon of the Hon. Member (Charlton) for not sooner reply-
ing to his observation. He ( Sergeant Wilde) had never stated
this was not a question relating to the Irish Church ; he had only
said that it necessarily involved to a considerable extent the
question of confidence or no confidence in Ministers. If the
present Government did not consider the state of the Irish
Church an abuse, he had no hope that they would be satisfied
that any abuses existed. With that view he considered the
question most proper in point of time and form.—( Cheers. )
The Noble Lord had been charged with inconsistency in
bringing forward this motion. It seemed to him that the
charge against the Noble Lord was without the slightest foun-
dation. He would not presume to be the defender of the Noble
Lord, nor venture to take such a liberty ; but, from all the
information he possessed, he would venture to assert that the
charge was utterly without foundation. The late Government
had declared that they were prepared to act upon the prin-
ciple incorporated in the present motion. The country re-
quired no pledge from them.—( Loud cheers.) They had
issued a Commission, and had stated that the issuing of that
Commission they considered as a recognition of the prin.