The Sun.
London, England, 1835-06-02 00:00:00

—and you may depend upon it that the great sufferers in the , Hon. Baronet opposite, there remained, practically speak
event of the proposed change would be the labouring classes. ing, but little for him to say ; at the same, time he mus
—( Hear.) The only point appears to be to win over the beg, in the first instanee, to advert to what had fallen from the
agriculturists to an advocacy of this measure, by a pretended Hon. Member for Knaresborough, the whole cirrent of whose
advantage, whilst, at the same time, the public creditor is to argument was, that in all his Majesty's Mit:miters did,' and
be defrauded, and the agricultural labourer pinched in his in all they proposed, they evinced a dete,rmination• f.e.yefuse
earnings. There appears, then, to be no real and direct ad- all relief to, and withhold all sympaiby-ifioni;"the. agelesltu-
vantage derivable to the agricultural interest from the pro- ral interest ; and he had mixed up a ai treat 'seiretir .4 pro-
posed change. But it is argued that the agriculturists positions, which were in ' themselves entireVAifferkt and
will derive a service from the diminution of the public distinct. They were not now refusing any application for
burthens which will follow from the alteration. How is it inquiry into agricultural distress, with a view to its relief;
that the complaints of the injustice which were made at the on the contrary, the very same individuals who acquiesced
change from 1797 to 1816 are not renewed by the present pro- in the appointment of a committee for that purpose, were
position ?—( Hear, hear.) It was then made cause of corn- now opposing an inquiry into the standard, which, as had
plaint that those who had made engagements in the depreci- been already stated by the Hon. and Learned Member for
ated currency were called upon to fulfil them in the improved Dublin, meant nothing more nor less than a depreciation,
one. No doubt a great deal of individual injury had taken for the purpose of paying less than they had promised to
place on the occasion ; but how could it have been obviated, pay. He must say, in behalf of that interest, with which
or what mode of equitable and just compensation could have he had the honour to be connected, and of which he never
been adopted? What arrangement could be made with regard could speak but in terms of the highest respect, that
to money lent before 1796—with regard to money lent in the it belonged more to them than to any other class to advo-
interval between that and 1816—and with regard to money cate a depreciation of the standard, because, by reason of
lent after this latter period, all of which was to be repaid in the transactions connected with lands, mortgages, contracts,
varied currency, in some instances depreciated, and in other family settlements, and on jointures, they were the individuals,
instances improved ? With regard to the agricultural interest of all others in the whole community, who possessed the
it had been observed that mortgages had been made in a depre- largest claims on account of fixed engagements, and in whom,
ciated currency, the redemption of which took place in an im- therefore, it would be infinitely less creditable and honourable
proved one ; but on behalf of the other interests, could it not to come forward and ask for relief. His Right Hon. Friend,
with equal justice be urged that deeds and contracts were en- the President of the Board of Trade, had referred to the re-
tered into in which the lenders of money laboured under simi- solution of 1833. It was not the only one upon the subject.
lar disadvantages, and possessed an equal claim to a revision ? In former and earlier times, and under nearly similar circum-
But how could a revision be entered upon with respect to stances, the reign of King William, in 1696, the House of
transactions which extended over so long a period s— (Hear, Commons had the honour and the honesty to come forward
hear.) Whatever may be the inclination to enter into such and to refuse their assent to such a proposition as the present,
revision the attempt to carry it into practice would be the- in the following resolution :—" That the House would not
roughly impossible. But the question now is, how are we to alter the standard of the gold and silver coin of the realm
alter the arrangement of 1819, or rather 1816, for it was in value, weight, or denomination." The same resolution
then that the difficulty practically began ? It began in conse was afterwards moved as an amendment, on a similar pro-
quence of the return to peace, and through the operation of position by Mr. Huslisson ; and one, to pretty nearly the
natural causes. Amongst these were the absence of the sti- same effect, had been moved by his Noble Friend in 1832.
mulus which war had created, and the reduction of prices ' It was said that they were paying the public creditor more
consequent upon the great increase and improvement of ma- than they contracted to pay. He denied the fact abso-
chinery.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Let the natural causes which lutely.—( Hear, hear.) The loan had been contracted at
operated to produce the change be separated from the con- a period of the greatest depreciation, and they were now
sequences which followed from the introduction of a con- paying in gold, at 31. 19s. lop. ; and had it not been a
vertible medium, and then will be seen how little of the evil special article of the contract with the public creditor,
must be attributed to the latter. From 1816 to the present that, within a certain period after the restoration of peace,
period nineteen years have elapsed, and since that time all he should be paid in full? If the principle now sought to be
contracts that were made have taken place under the new established were once adopted, what was the situation in which
standard of currency. Repeated attempts have been made to he might chance to find himself placed? Let the House but
alter the law, but these attempts have proved unsuccessful. once affirm the principle that they had a right to deal with
It was tried in 1821, but the House solemnly recorded its de- these contracts, and to pay the public creditor less than they
claration against the attempt. In 1826 a similar attempt was had contracted, and in the course of the present session it
made with a similar result. The same took place in 1833. might be his duty to apply to that monied interest which had
What advantage do you now propose to yourselves in depre- been spoken of to raise a loan with which to meet the exigen-
ciating the present currency ? So far from the proposed cies of the State. But how could England hope to raise such
measure tending to the redress of any grievances, its effect a loan if the British Parliament were to set to the nations of
would be highly injurious. If the change of 1816 were pro- the earth the example of violating her contracts, and depart-
ductive of injustice what would be the effect of a change now, ing from her most solemn and long-recognized engage-
after the lapse of nineteen years, in which so many contracts ments 2—( Hear, hear.) At what period, too, were they
were entered into by parties who, after the frequent discussion called upon to take this step ? Why just at diet time
of the subject, placed the fullest confidence in the stability of all others when other nations had been setting a bet-
of the present standard? The country, after such a lapse of ter example, and pursuing a far nobler course—when in
time, was placed in a totally different position from what it danger and in difficulty Portugal herself had been making
was in 1816 ; and if the change which took place at that efforts for the improvement of her currency—when Ame-
period were an injustice, an alteration now, seeing that the rice, a free state, had been making one of the greatest
country had adapted itself to the present standard, would be and most difficult efforts ever made by any nation to restore
a second injustice.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) How small the character of the currency. Was this the rnomet for Eng-
must be the number of engagements existing previously to land, the first of all nations in a commercial point of view, to
the year 1816 compared with those which have since taken set an example to all who lived within its dominions, and to
place. How many of the former have been reversed by vo- the nations of the earth, for the first time in her modern
luntary contracts. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Yet now you history, of a violation of faith ? Was this the period for
would enact a new law by which great injustice would acceding to such a proposition, when they had just accom-
be done to those who had entered into engagements within plished, by legitimate means, the reduction of the interest of
the last nineteen years ; an Act by which the old grievance the national debt, and after inducing the public creditor to
would not be redressed, but which would inflict incalculable keep up the value of the securities, to turn upon him at last,
injury upon those who had entered into contracts in the pre- and by forcible robbery deprive him of his fair and just re-
sent currency, and under a standard which, by repeated votes ward? Gentlemen who talked about pressure would have
of the House, had been declared unalterable. For these rea- them believe that it rested exclusively with the landed inte-
sons, believing that no interest would be benefited, that the rest. Was that the only interest that suffered ?—( Hear,
agricultural interest, so far from being served, would be mate- hear.) Gentlemen connected with commerce would tell
wally injured by the measure ; that the public creditor would them that there had been no inconsiderable reduction in pro-
be robbed, the price of labour lowered, and engagements fits generally. Let them look to the condition even of the
greatly altered in their character, I feel myself bound to public creditor; a paper he held in his hand showed that since
oppose the Committee. The Right Hon. Baronet concluded the peace a saving of 2,3.55,845/. had been effected in the
amidst loud cheers. interest of the debt in the annual payments. The following
Mr. O'C ONN ELL said the alteration made in the cur- was the paper referred to :
rency in 1819 had been fatal to this country and ruinous to An Account of the Saving accrued to the Public by the Conversion
Ireland. The Right Hon. Baronet, in his allusions to 1797, of Stock from a higher to a lower rate of interest.
and to 1816 and 1819, was playing fast and loose with dates. Interest on the
The Right Hon. Baronet did not take into account the dif- Capital.
At
ference which the change of currency made in the millions of Capital. At the '_, At the_, Saving.
debt due by the country.—( Hear, hear.) There was no press. highest lowest
ing necessity for the change effected in 1819. It was a ques. late of rate of
tion concocted in insanity, and as if for the purpose of making interest. Interest. —.....,....
an experiment as to the quantity of suffering which humanity 1822 X X. X. .c.
could endure.—( Hear.) In Ireland it had operated like a Cadptiit_4l.5l.
.peir. CAt37.,Ltsteenrtds.e-.
149,62'7,825 7,481,391
pestilence, and swept away whole families by its baneful ope- Capital of New sock, 4/.
ration. The produce of that country was materially affected by per Cents., including the mr,crra
it. When the prices for agricultural produce were small, the bonus of 7,1.852r31. 157,189,218
quantity exported was great, and thus a man, instead of reser. Capital 41. per Cents., after de.
ving three pigs out of six for his own use, was obliged to send ducting 6,149,24-sissents... 70,105,403 2,804,216 2,453,619 250,50
the whole of them out of the country, and hence it ensued that Capital Si. 10s. per Cents. the
misery was brought home to every cabin door. As to the 1830.
public debt, could it be denied that the amount of that debt Capital 41. jzCZis.gilseenrtds.e:
151,021,728 6,040,869
had been doubled ? And, that being the case, was it not clear Capital g/. 10s. 'per
that the monied interest had a strong motive for upholding the Cent. £150,344,051
present system? He, however, must protest against it. The Do. Si. per Cent 474,374
150,818,425 '755,110
--
Right Hon. Baronet had said that those who bought lands 1834.
were speculators, and that those who invested money in the Capital 4/. per Cents. ...
.Capital in 31. 10s
p
funds were not. Now, was this the fact? Why, those who Theer 8 ple
net s
lent the Government 1,000/. expected to get 2,000/. for it, ..............
that was, those who purchased three per cents. at 50/. ex- Total 2,355,1145
pected to get 100/. instead of 50!., by employing their capital It might be said that every other interest would derive an equal
in that way, and, therefore, if this proved anything, it went to benefit from the reduction. He denied that it could take effect
show that the man who dealt in money was as much a specu- except upon fixed engagements. Again, did Gentlemen pay
lator as the man who dealt in land—that there was really no the same interest now on mortgages as they had done in past
distinction whatever between them.—( Hear.) The Right times ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Wiltshire
Hon. Baronet had said that 1816 was the period when paper (Mr. Benett) had addressed the House upon this subject. He
and gold were at par; but did he forget that in the following should like to ask the Hon. Gentleman whether the effect of a
year, 1817, the issue of paper was greater than in the previous depreciation of the standard would not be, that the labourer
year, although both 1817 and 1818 were years of agricul- would have to pay a higher monied price for every necessary of
tural prosperity ?—( Hear, hear.) For those three years, life he purchased? He should like to know whether the Hon.
then, he had a right to take credit.—( Hear, hear.) But did Gentleman would pay him more wages on this account ? No ;
the Government go back to a metallic currency in 1818? the labourer would be fixed just in proportion to the alteration
Undoubtedly they did not, for in that year the Bank of in prices. Was it not the depreciation of' 1797 which of all
England issued no less than four millions of paper, and, of other acts produced the distress and misery under.which the
course, the currency was by that means increased. Well, then, agricultural interest had so long laboured ? The Hon. and
I in 1816 there was distress ; 1817 and 1818 were years of pros- Learned Member for Dublin had laid great stress on the dis-
perity ; but in 1819 that prosperity was checked. In 1821 advantages under which Ireland laboured. Why, if any part of
they had their resolution against a paper currency. Aud then the kingdom had derived considerable advantage from war prices
came 1826, when it was resolved that they should go to a gold and war expenditure, it was just that portion of the empire
standard. But he would ask them whether there had been one to which they both belonged. Every one who had spoken
▪ year of prosperity since, or if agriculture had prospered from throughout the debate had admitted the evils arising from con-
-1 1826 down to the present hour ?—( Hear.) The evidence was stant fluctuations in the currency. Could any one who re-
-1 decisive on the point, and he would defy any man to deny that membered the effect which had been produced before,•doubt
r since they had resolved, in 1826, not to alter the currency, agri- what would be the result of the present motion if it were ac-
t cultural distress had been constantly on the increase. Front ' ceded to ? It was not to 1819 they had to look back—it was
, that period to the present that House had done literally no- to 1797. If there were evils to be deplored, if there were
▪ thing, and, it would seem, meant to do nothing. To be sure grievances to be lamented, they were occasioned by that first
i in 1833 they passed a resolution, but what was the effect measure, necessary as it might have been at the time ; though
t of that resolution ? Why it was as much as to say that even on that point there existed great differences of opinion.
play of Hamlet was to be played with the part of Hamlet The point they bad to decide in 1819 was, whether it was not
omitted by particular desire—( A laugh)—for the subject of better to perform their engagements, even at the hazard of the
1 the currency was altogether passed over. In short they pressure that ensued, than to violate them for the purpose of
t had done nothing ; they had afforded no relief ; and 1835 escaping it. It was on these grounds that he trusted the
. had come, and what was the result ? Why, that wheat was House would, by a strong majority, declare their opinion on the
i, from 4s. to 4s. 6d. the bushel. But was that, he should like question, because, as had been frequently said before, if they
• to know, any relief to the agricultural interests ? Now he did not adhere to the standard of value, the public ho.
was glad that this was not a party question. The Govern- nour and public credit of England were gone, ant
, ment took part with the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and she could no longer exist as a commercial country. Bu'
_ the great monied aristocracy, and he regretted it ; but this he one word more and he had done. An Honourable Gentle.
a could tell them, that although it was not a party ques- man near him seemed to sneer when he spoke of the monies
j tion in that House it was considered so out of doors. interest. He mentioned it not as separate from, but as a par
) By their own admission the agricultural interest had been of, the great interests of the country—( Hear, hear.) Thi
• going back year after year for the last eleven years, and in monied interest represented by the Funds was not the interes
o 1833 that House went the length of declaring that they would of a rich or powerful party, but of the middle classes—(Hear
? do nothing with a view to relief, although they admitted the hear.) He would, with the permission of. the House, refer ti
c distress. Let them deny the existence of distress in England one paper, from which it would appear how small a portion o
e if they pleased, but he would go to Ireland, and show them this property was possessed by the great leviathans of weak]
n that there, at least, distress had prevailed. He acknowledged which the Hon. Gentleman supposed to be the objects of their
r, that a change in the present system would give relief to the exclusive protection. It was to the following effect :
if debtor, and to that extent diminish the means of the creditor Dividends payable sth June, 1834... 181,469 persons
;s —not, however, ' the mercantile creditor—for it could not Not exceeding Si. ... 56,236
_ operate prejudicially to the man who was both a buyer and a Not exceeding 101.
a seller. On this head he differed from the sentiments of the Not exceeding 50/.
. Hon. Member for Knaresborough, as he did upon many others, 148,920
•.. and he must say that the fair way to take the inquiry was as --
3 between debtor and creditor. He could not help thinking Not exceeding 30/... .. . 32,549
e that there was something wrong about a gold standard—that ( Loud cheers. )
c it was injurious in a variety of ways besides rendering dear this Mr. BEN ETT explained, amidst great confusion and low
._ rate of exchange. It had a sensible effect upon the produc- cries of " Divide I"
,n tive labour of the country ; and it was his belief that without Mr. GILL ON moved the adjournment 4 the debate, an,
in a cheap currency productive industry could not be put into the gallery was cleared for a division.
, ) such active motion as would increase the value of property to Strangers having been excluded for a quarter of an hots
h an extent which would compensate for the loss which the the gallery was re-opened; and we presume, from what fo]
a, change might produce. In proof of this he would adduce a lowed, that during the exclusion of strangers Mr. Gillon ha
,d familiar illustration. Suppose in the back settlements of had consented to withdraw his motion. We found on of
of America it were declared that no man should cut down a return
a_ tree expect with a golden hatchet, what would be the re- Sir C. BURRELL on his legs. The Hon. Member sal
a suit ? Why, that little ground would be cleared and that he thought be had a right, since he had suet with so muc
Id brought into a state of productiveness. But suppose another interruption—( Cries of " Divide")—to punish the House I
ie Act were passed by which it was said that none but good reading an extract from a much-respected authority in corri
or Birmingham steel hatchets should be used in • clearing boration of the opinion which he entertained upon the subjec
ae the woods, what would the case be then? Why, that trees The Hon. Member, after reading a passage, which we ui
,-,h would be rapidly cut down, and land brought under cultiva- derstood to be extracted from a speech delivered by Lord We
by tion, so that the man with the gold hatchet would throw it tern, said it was affirmed by the wisest in monetary matter
n- out of the window, and betake himself to the more useful im- that no other nation but England could have sustained th
se element.—( Hear, and a laugh.) But he knew it was said convulsion which succeeded to the withdrawal of thirty-tit
sb that paper was nothing but vile rags—mere assignats; and millions from the currency. The state of affairs require
is Mr. Canning had talked "of oceans of paper, irrigated at the that some remedial measure should be adopted, and such
on base by a little gold." Now what he (Mr. O'Connell) wanted measure would undoubtedly benefit all classes. The funs
e_ was that the oceans of gold should be irrigated at the base by holders might suffer in a diminution of their income, but the
o- a little silver, and he believed that a depreciation of from four would be amply compensated by its increased security. I
if to five per cent. in the two metals would, according to bank- saw no objection to a full and impartial inquiry, and for th
It, ing calculation with respect to two-thirds of paper, produce he should have no hesitation in giving his vote.
nv an increase in prices to the extent of from twelve to fifteen per Mr. J. MAXWELL supported the motion.
nd cent., and at the same time augment considerably the circulat- Mr. CAY L E Y replied. He denied that the effect of I
sia ing medium of the country. The Right Hon. Baronet was motion, if successful, would be to affect injuriously the interes
ity now satisfied that the expedient which had been tried was a of the labouring classes.
;ee frightful one, although made, no doubt, with a good intention, The House then divided, when the numbers were—
si. and by parties who desired well to the country. He should For Mr. Cayley's motion
be give his support to the motion, and he must confess that he Against it 216
is regretted to find the members of the Government concurring Majority against the motion
lot in opinion with the Right Hon. Baronet, because he did think STAFFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
),C that they should have held out some hope to the country of Mr. H. L. BU LWE R moved for leave to bring in a B
he affording them relief upon the subject.—( Cries of " Divide, for the disfranchisement of the borough of Stafford.
I divide.") Captain CEI ETWYND said he would not oppose the no
les Mr. RIC H ARDS rose to make some explanation, but what tion, because he could not do so without going into detail
out fell from the Hon. Member was inaudible in the gallery, owing but he should give every opposition in his power to the E
my to the loud and general cries of " Question," " Spoke," and on the second reading.
t- , " Divide, divide." Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
arc I
The CHA N CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and 1
rs) after the arguments which had been adduced by the Right House adjourned at Two o'Clook. • .

2,355,ait5

It might be said that every other interest would derive an equal
benefit from the reduction. He denied that it could take effect
except upon fixed engagements. Again, did Gentlemen pay
the same interest now on mortgages as they had done in past
times ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Wiltshire
(Mr. Benett) had addressed the House upon this subject. He
should like to ask the Hon. Gentleman whether the effect of a
depreciation of the standard would not be, that the labourer
would have to pay a higher monied price for every necessary of
life he purchased? He should like to know whether the lion.
Gentleman would pay him more wages on this account ? No ;
the labourer would be fixed just in proportion to the alteration
in prices. Was it not the depreciation of 1797 which of all
other acts produced the distress and misery under which the
agricultural interest had so long laboured ? The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin had laid great stress on the dis-
advantages under which Ireland laboured. Why, if any part of
the kingdom had derived considerable advantage from war prices
and war expenditure, it was just that portion of the empire
to which they both belonged. Every one who had spoken
throughout the debate had admitted the evils arising from con-
stant fluctuations in the currency. Could any one who re-
membered the effect which had been produced before, doubt
what would be the result of the present motion if it were ac-
ceded to ? It was not to 1819 they had to look back—it was
to 1797. If there were evils to be deplored, if there were
grievances to be lamented, they were occasioned by that first
measure, necessary as it might have been at the time ; though
even on that point there existed great differences of opinion.
The point they had to decide in 1819 was, whether it was not
better to perform their engagements, even at the hazard of the
pressure that ensued, than to violate them for the purpose of
escaping it. It was on these grounds that he trusted the
House would, by a strong majority, declare their opinion on the
question, because, as had been frequently said before, if they
did not adhere to the standard of value, the public ho-
nour and public credit of England were gone, and
she could no longer exist as a commercial country. But
one word more and he had done. An Honourable Gentle-
man near him seemed to sneer when he spoke of the monied
interest. He mentioned it not as separate from, but as a part
of, the great interests of the country—( Hear, hear.) The
monied interest represented by the Funds was not the interest
of a rich or powerful party, but of the middle classes—( Hear,
hear.) He would, with the permission of, the House, refer to
one paper, from which it would appear how small a portion of
this property was possessed by the great leviathans of wealth
which the Hon. Gentleman supposed to be the objects of their
exclusive protection. It was to the following effect :
Dividends payable sth June, 1834... 181,469 persons
Not exceeding Si.
Not exceeding 101.
Not exceeding 50/.
148,920

Not exceeding 301. 32,549
(Loud cheers.)
Mr. BEN ETT explained, amidst great confusion and loud
cries of " Divide I"

Mr. GILL ON moved the adjournment tif the debate, and
the gallery was cleared for a division.
Strangers having been excluded for a quarter of an hour,
the gallery was re-opened; and we presume, from what fol-
lowed, that during the exclusion of strangers Mr. Gillon had
had consented to withdraw his motion. We found on our
return

Sir C. BURRELL on his legs. The lion. Member said
chat he thought he had a right, since he had met with so much
interruption—( Cries of " Divide")—to punish the House by
reading an extract from a much-respected authority in corro-
boration of the opinion which he entertained upon the subject.
The Hon. Member, after reading a passage, which we un-
derstood to be extracted from a speech delivered by Lord Wes-
tern, said it was affirmed by the wisest in monetary matters,
that no other nation but England could have sustained the
convulsion which succeeded to the withdrawal of thirty-two
millions from the currency. The state of affairs required
that some remedial measure should be adopted, and such a
measure would undoubtedly benefit all classes. The fund-
holders might suffer in a diminution of their income, but they
would be amply compensated by its increased security. fie
saw no objection to a full and impartial inquiry, and for that
he should have no hesitation in giving his vote.
Mr. J. MAXWELL supported the motion.
Mr. CAY LE Y replied. He denied that the effect of his
motion, if successful, would be to affect injuriously the interests
of the labouring classes.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For Mr. Cayley's motion
Against it
Majority against the motion

Mr. H. L. BUL WE R moved for leave to bring in a Bill
for the disfranchisement of the borough of Stafford.
Captain CHETWYND said he would not oppose the mo-
tion, because he could not do so without going into details ;
but he should give every opposition in his power to the Bill
on the second reading.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, cad the
House adjourned at Two o'Clook.