The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-05 00:00:00

BERWICK-UPON-TWEED.

After some discussion, in which the Counsel pointed out the
difficulty they had of proceeding in the case of Berwick-upon-
Tweed:it was at length agreed that they should proceed in
that case.

Mr. Stephenson was then called, and stated that he was
born and bred in the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed ; there
was no select or governing body in the town ; the election
was perfectly popular; there was a mayor and four bailiffs,
who were elected annually ; the former was a magistrate for
life, but filled the office of mayor only for a year ; burgess
meetings were called three or four times a year, quite often
enough to give perfect satisfaction to the inhabitants.
Do the inhabitants wish to have a council to govern their
affairs ?—No ; they prefer the present popular mode.
Do they wish to have the corporate property cut up and
changed, and turned into God Almighty knows what ?—(A
laugh from their Lordships.)
Lord LYNDHURST (laughing)—We can't have the
question in that form, Sir Charles.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL—WeII, I will change it. Have
your people any desire to sell their corporate property 2—No.
Do they wish to make any change in existing regulations?
—None, that I know of.

You have no patriots, Members of Parliament, or such like
in your Corporation, nor any wish to have any, have you ?
( No answer.)

The witness went on to state that the people of Berwick
were very peaceful ; there were eight or nine magistrates, and
three maiden sessions last year.
In answer to Lord LYNDH UR ST, the witness stated that
any statement that there was a preponderance of opinion in the
Corporation against the existing system was erroneous.
In answer to the Marquis of SALISBURY, he stated that
the value of the corporate property was about 10,000/. ; the
debt of the Corporation 50,0001., and had been increasing ever
since he had known it ; he believed it had originated in the
Corporation paying the property-tax ; he had no means of
knowing what the feelings of the town were with regard to the
Corporation Reform question.
LEICESTER.
Charles Meredith said he was an inhabitant of Leicester,
and had been for 45 years; he had been 30 years a solicitor
there ; the business of the Corporation was always conducted
in the most satisfactory manner ; the borough magistrates were
always preferred to the judges of assize or county magistrates,
even where the parties were of different politics from the ma-
gistrates; he was examined about half an hour or more by the
Commissioners of Corporation Inquiry, but no trace of it ap-
peared in the printed evidence ; the same questions very nearly
were put to him by the Commissioners that had been put to
him this evening by the Learned Counsel • the Commis-
sioners appeared to desire to have evidence all on one side ;
they put their questions in that way.
Lord L YNDHUR ST—How could that be, if as you say,
the questions they put to you were the same as the questions
put by the Learned Counsel to-night ?—As far as regarded
myself, the questions of the Commissioners were calculated to
serve the ends of justice ; but as regarded others, when a witness
stated what they did not like, he was closely cross-examined ;
whilst others,who did not know so much, had their statements at
once put down if they were favourable.—(A certificate was
here put in and read, stating, " that the undersigned inha-
bitants of Leicester had abstained from presenting themselves
in open court to testify to the satisfactory manner in which
justice was administered by the authorities of Leicester, be-
cause of the discreditable manner in which the proceedings of
the Commissioners' Court were conducted, and to avoid -sub-
jecting themselves to be irr,ulted cl=nlornns invective ac
gross personalities.") The witness stated that he knew the
parties who had signed that document, sad he believed it

fairly represented the character of the proceedings under the
Commission. He afterwards explained that the conduct ani.
madverted upon was not the conduct of the Commissioners,
but of the by-standers. The interruptions of those persons
consisted of hissing, and insulting and clamorous observations
against those whom they disliked.
In answer to Lord KENYON, the witness said he did

not observe the Commissioners endeavour to repress the in-
sults of the audience ; did not observe such conduct on the
part of those who were in favour of the magistrates.
In answer to Lord LYNDHURST, he stated that Mr.
Heylan was the present Recorder, Mr. Sergeant Goulburn
preceded him, and Mr. Justice Vaughan was the Recorder
for twenty years before that.
Lord RADNOR—There is a strong party feeling in Lei-
cester, is there not ?—There is.
There is also a strong party of the respectable people op-
posed to the Corporation ?—Yes, the respectable and the
lower people.
Lord LYNDHURST—What are the politics of the Cor-
poration—Church and King ?—Yes, my Lord.
Lord RADNOR—What are the politics of the party op-
posed to the Corporation—are they against the Church and
King ?—lt is not for me to say.
Lord BRO UG HAM—I suppose One party is for Church and
King, and the other for King and Church.
Mr. Burbidge was called and examined—l have been town-
clerk of Leicester for twenty-three years, and have resided
there during the whole of that time, acting also as a solicitor ;
the local government of the town consists of 72 persons-24
aldermen, and 48 councilmen ; the alderman are the governing
body, but there arc many things requiring the co-operation of the
72 ; the mayor only is a magistrate ; the alderman are chosen
out of the council; the population of Leicester is about
40,000; there are between 2,000 and 3,000 resident freemen,
and a great many non-resident ; the freedom is obtained by
birth, servitude, purchase, and gift; it is almost universally
acquired by servitude and birth ; the right descends to all
the sons of freemen ; the servitude might be in any part
of England, provided the party be bound before the mayor ;
the freemen have property; they have an estate of 130
acres near the town, for them and their widows resident
in the town ; there are other gifts by Charles the First ; the
Corporation has property independent of the freemen ; Al-
derman Newton, left an estate to them worth 1,1001. a year,
for the express benefit of children whose parents belong to the
Church of England; they have other charitable property; the
Charity Commissioners have never visited Leicester, nor
have they ever been in the county ; the Corporation property
amounts to 4,0001. a year, which is devoted to the payment of
salaries, and other general purposes ; the money is not applied
to the use of the individual members of the Corporation, but
to public and charitable purposes; the aldermen are selected
from the respectable tradesmen of the town ; the practical
effect of the system during all the time I can speak of has
been to fill the Corporation with useful and respectable func-
tionaries and magistrates; justice was administered with im-
partiality ; there is not a better system of police in England
than in Leicester; I was examined before the Municipal
Commissioners in September, 1833 ; some demur arose re-
specting it ; I was not aware that I was going to be exa-
mined in a public meeting, but when I got to the Castle I
found the passage thronged by the most violent opponents of
the Corporation ; I felt great doubt whether I ought to be
examined before such a tribunal ; I saw the Commissioners,
and expressed my doubt, and wished my examination to be
postponed; they said they could not alter their mode of pro-
ceeding, and must insist on my examination; I said I
would not consent unless I had an assurance that there would
be no violence offered by the crowd; they gave me that assu-
rance, and I consented to be examined ; the Commissioners de-
manded the production of documents, to which I could not ac-
cede; I made a report to the Corporation thereon. [The
Report was read. It was the same that has since been pub-
lished in the Commissioners' Report.] The Corporation passed
resolutions expressive of their opinion that I should not deliver
up the documents ; I deny the statement made by the Com-
missioners, that there was no excitement at the meeting; I
deny it decidedly. No encouragement, however, was at all
given to that excitement by the Commissioners.
Lord LYNDHURST—Then that representation of the
Commissioners was not true ?—lt is not true ; but I do not
mean to say that the Commissioners meant to state what

was false.
Mr. KNIGHT—Did you make an untrue statement to the
Corporation ?
Lord PLUNKETT—That is the most extraordinary ques-
tion I ever heard put by counsel to a witness in my life.
Mr. KNIGHT—The Commissioners have charged this wit-
ness with having made an untrue statement; and I now ask
him whether he did make any such statement ?_( Cheers from
several Noble Lords on the opposition benches.)
Lord BROUG HAM—There, my Lords, that is just such a
sort of interruption as was made by the people before the Com-
missioners at Leicester, and which could not be suppressed ;
I dare say we shall have it repeated here
The Earl of FALMOUTH and Lord LYNDHURST
rose together ; but the latter giving way, the Noble Earl pro-
tested against the dictatorial tone of the Noble and Learned
Lord ( Brougham) ; and he hoped the Noble and Learned
Lord (Lyndhurst) would not submit to it. He would not
suffer the Noble and Learned Lord (Brougham) to dictate
to him.

Lord BROUGHAM hoped the House would never suffer
any Noble Lord to dictaw to them; and if any person was less
disposed than another to dictate to their Lordships, it was the
humble individual who now addressed them.—( Laughter. )
He saw by their unanimous approval that he had rightly esti-
mated their opinion —( Laughter)—and he thanked their Lord-
ships for the testimony they had borne in his favour. But what
he had risen to notice was, the very usual fact of some of their
Lordships having cheered—not what was said in the House,
but what, as judges, they had heard said by counsel at the
bar ; and this they did, like any other multitude, whether as-
sembled at the Castle at Leicester or elsewhere.
Lord LYND URST said the cheer was not quite what
his Noble and Learned Friend had stated. It was not a cheer
of approval of what had been said by counsel at the bar ; but
the cheer was to indicate that the Noble and Learned Lord

( i'lunket's) interposition was altogether incorrect.
Mr. Burbidge was then examined by Lord BROUGHAM
respecting a mortgage debt of 10,000/., owing by the corpora-
tion of Leicester. In 1826 there was a severely contested
election at Leicester. An engagement was made by which
Sir Charles Hastings, who came forward on the Corporation
interest, should pay only a certain amount towards his election.
A union was afterwards formed with another candidate, Mr.
Otway Cave, who agreed to pay another certain part. Owing
to some misconception, he did not fulfil that engagement, and
the gentlemen who entered into that engagement with Sir C.
Hastings felt bound in honour to pay the money, and raised it

upon their own bonds. Three years after the Corporation
relieved them from that obligation by borrowing the money;
but he (the witness) felt bound professionally, not to say who
lent it. Sir Charles Hastings was true blue—that is, of Tory
principles—such as were now on the decline.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Otway Cave, was sky-blue, and the third candidate, Mr.
Evans, was a purple—that is, a liberal.

The witness then underwent a long examination by Lord
PLUNKETT and Lord BROUGHAM, in the course of
which he stated that 7,000/., part of the 10,000/., -was paid
for the election expenses of Sir Charles Hastings and Mr. 0.
Cave, because they were the Corporation candidates ; but no-
thing was paid on Mr. Evans' account. That he considered the
people of Leicester generally had no more interest in the Cor-
poration property than they had in their Lordship's estates, but
that the Corporation might divide it among themselves; that
he was aware of the Act passed to prevent Corporation money
being applied to election purposes, but which was introduced
by Mr. Evans after this election ; that the mortgagee lived in
Leicester, but was not connected with the Corporation ; but
the persons to whom the money was repaid were—some being
aldermen, and some common councilmen; he had no doubt
they paid the money in full confidence that the Cerporation
would not sufE- them ultimately to be the losers. He ob-
jected to name the professional agent of the mortgagee, unless
their Lordships determined that he should name him.—No
proceedings have been instituted against the Corporation for
their application of this money ; Mr. 0. Cave and Sir C.
Hastings were returned in 1826, by a majority of 800 votes.
The 'commonalty lands which belong to the freemen were
purchased originally by funds derived partly from property
.granted to the Corporation by Queen Elizabeth, and partly
by personal contributions.
Mr. KNIGHT said he had done with the witness; and then
observed, that the Act of Parliament prohibiting the applica-
tion of Corporation property to election purposes received
the Royal Assent on the Ist of August, 1832.
Lord L YND HURST thought the House had now better
adjourn. They had been sitting upwards of ten hours.
Sir CHARLES WETlizaELL'regrettcd to state that it would
be impossible, consistently with the decent performance of a
useful duty to their Lordships, that he should go on to-morrow;
he would, therefore, take the liberty of suggesting that their
Lordships should pass over to-morrow, and resume the exa-
mination on Thursday._ . • _

Lord BROUGHAM asked whether the Learned Counsel
wished to examine any more witnesses from Leicester?
Mr. KNIGHT thought that it was not necessary to do so.
Lord BR OUG HAM had heard there were some witnesses
from Bristol in town ; why not go on with them ?
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL said he was not ready, as far as
Bristol is concerned.

Lord BROUGHAM—Why not? You have only to ex-
amine them upon points perfectly familiar to you. I cannot
see the necessity of not going on to-morrow.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL—We have exhausted the vocabu-
lary of our town clerks.
Lord LYNDHURST then suggested that the counsel
should begin at one o'clock to-morrow in the Bristol case ;
which was finally agreed to.
Their Lordships were then about to adjourn, when
The Marquis of SALISBURY observed that he had two
petitions to present ; one from a Mr. Mackintosh, and another
from the inhabitants of Romford, praying to be heard against
the Bill before their Lordships ; and he wished to know whe-
ther an opportunity would be afforded to him to present them
to-morrow, or whether he ought to postpone presenting them
till they came to the schedules.
Lord BROUGHAM was understood to recommend the
Noble Marquis to be prepared to present them to-morrow, in
case the House should not be ready to go on with the examina-
tion of the witnesses for Bristol.

Viscount MELBOURNE—I think, my Lords,that neither
of the petitions alluded to by the Noble Marquis ought to be
complied with ; and, my Lords, I protest most distinctly, for
the third instance, against this proceeding, both upon reason
and upon principle. I do not hold myself bound to it as a
precedent ; I deem it, my Lords, to be most erroneous, most
prejudicial, and most pernicious ; and I will not be hound by
it in any respect. But, at the same time, my Lord, I feel I
am bound to bow to a majority of this House. Mind (said the
Noble Viscount with very great emphasis), I with to be under-
stood that I consider myself as bowinc, to a majority, and to
that only, and not to any thing that I have heard in support of

this proceeding.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
But I protest against it, in reason and in principle. I, how-
ever, consider myself as being coerced by a superior—mark,
by a szaperior power (very emphatically)—( Great cheering)---
therefore, my Lords, your Lordships may act as you think
proper.—(Great cheering from the Ministerial side of the
House.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said his Noble Friend
had received advice from the Noble and Learned Lord as to,
the course he should pursue. and immediately after the Noble
Viscount got up and expressed a directly contrary opinion. He .
thought his Noble Friend was placed in a difficult situation--
What course was he to follow ? The Noble and Learned
Lord's, or submit to the. decision of the Noble Viscount ? He
thought that when those two Noble Lords, who seemed to
have the same object in view, entertained such directly con-
trary opinions, they must feel placed in an extraordinary po-
sition. Whom were they to look to ? By whom were they
to be guided ?
Lord BROUGHAM said that not a single word had fallen
from his Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) in which he did not
most cordially concur ; and the Noble Marquis had misunder-
stood the advice he (Lord Brougham) had given. His ad-
vice was this, that if these petitioners were ready to-morrow,
at a time when the witnesses from Bristol were not at the bar,
and if their Lordships should determine to hear them, they
could be heard at that moment instead of coming afterwards
to be heard. But he entirely agreed with his Noble Friend in
protesting against the right of those parties being heard. He
had strenuously resisted hearing evidence at the bar on behalf
of the Corporations, a multofirtiori should he resist hearing
evidence from a body of Town Clerks. They were opening
a door to such an extent by the precedent they were now esta-
blishing, that there was not a single Bill they could hereafter
pass on which application would not be made to hear counsel
and evidence at the bar ; and lie did not see how they would
be able to resist it, after so forcible a precedent as the hearing
of evidence on the Municipal Corporation Bill of 1835.
Lord LYNDHURST said he should pause long, before
he should consent to hear any evidence from persons who be-
longed to no Corporate Body. The Town Clerks must be
heard as so many individual petitioners. At all events, there
was no question before the House—it was therefore idle to
discuss it.

The Marquis of SALISBURY said, that after the state-
ment from the first Minister of the Crown, who, of course,
must be supposed to be well acquainted with the contents et
this Bill, because it was brought forward upon his responsibl, r
lity, he would state a case to the House, and then ask if there
ever was such an instance as a Minister of the Crown coming
down to the House and saying that an individual should be de-
prived of property which he had purchased of the Crown itself,
and that within the last seven years. The liberty of Haver..
ing atte-Bower was purchased by a gentleman of the name of
Mackintosh for upwards of 70,0001. Included in this pur-
chase was the right of appointing two Magistrates; he as a
tenant of the liberty, had never heard any complaint against
these Magistrates; but the Commissioners, nevertheless, had
reported this as a Corporation requiring Reform.
Lord L YNDHURST said this case stood upon the same
footing with all the other Corporations, and would, of course,
be heard in its turn. There was, therefore, no necessity for
any discussion upon it.
The Marquis of SALISBURY had no idea of provoking
a discussion on the subject. He had merely asked what course
he should pursue ; and the Noble and Learned Lord, who took
a very active part in the proceedings of their Lordship?
House, gave him certain advice, when up got the Noble Vis-
count, and talked of the power with which he was oppressed,
and said he would not be bound by these proceedings.—( The
Noble Marquis delivered the latter part of this sentence with
such an extraordinary exertion of lungs as to excite loud cheers
from the Opposition benches, and much laughter from the
other parts of the House.)
After a few words • from Lord BROUGHAM, the House
adjourned at half-past eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Avavar 4.
The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at five o'clock.
GREAT YARMOUTH ELECTION COMMITTEE.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON reported from the Great Yarmouth
Committee, that William Prentice, having twice been before the Coin.
mittee, and haying refused to answer questions put to him, had been
committed to the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, by order of the
house, on Friday last.

Mr. HARDY presented a petition from Prentice, the individual $1;
luded to, praying forgiveness of the house, and requesting permission Is
return home, for a few days, in custody of the officer of the house.
The honourable member contended that the witness had no right
to answer the questions put to him, on tie ground that it would criminate
himself, which no person could be a judge of but the witness himself'
He could cite the decision of Lord Eldon and the Court of Common
Pleas in support of this doctrine. Under these circumstances, he hoPel
the house would not do what was in direct violation of the law, ant.
that they would take the petition of this individual into considera-
tion by calling him to the bar of this house, reprimanding anti
discharging him. If this was not done, they should act as they bat
done in the Liverpool and Grampound cases, and in that of the in,'
ractiment of Lord Melvil:e, by passing a special Act of Parliament.
otherwise they could not adopt the suggestion of the hon. member fa
Middle..ex, of extending protection to this witness.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, objected to the argument of the
hon. member opposite, and thought it would establish a dangerous Pre'
ce.lent if witnesses were allowed to object to questions on every -
trifling occasion. The witnesses should not be allowed to judge M.
themselves in all cases, but the discretion should remain with the Court- :`
Mr. PEASE, on behalf of the Committee, could assure the house that -
they had fairly' and fully discharged their duty. The hon. rnernter
proceeding to continent on the evidence, when—
The SPEAKER interposed, and said that the discussion had 0011
arisen upon the presentation of a petition.
_ _

Lord J. RUSSELL suggested that the subject should be postponed
till to-morrow, which was agreed to.
An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, moved for the
production of copies of the evidence taken in this case.
Sir R. PEEL objected to the motion.

Lord J. RUSSELL suggested that the motion be postponed.
Mr. ROBINSON hoped that the House would consider well the evil
consequences that followed from the appointment of this sort of Coin'
mittees. It was the most absurd proceeding that had ever eon'
nated from that House.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was a proceeding
that was strongly calculated to bring that House into disrepute'
He hoped the House would constitute some other select tribunal, l°
order that these investigations might proceed with some degree of de'
corum, and some chance of doing justice to the parties. He made.
these observations, because night after night the invaluable time of the.'
house was occupied with discussions that were productive of no be'
nefit, and unless some check or other were interposed, the house
would be involved in a mass of inextricable difficulties and confusion.
Mr. PEASE considered that in consequence of the Resolution on the
Books, it was compulsory upon the House to enter into the inquiry.
Mr. WA SON was astonished at the observations that had been made
by the hon. Member for Worcester, because he was certain that no bon'
Member who either voted for or against the appointment of the Coal.
mitten would deny that most important facts had been elicited.
Mr. FERGUSSON deprecated such observations as the Hon. Member
for Worcester had thought proper to make use of.
Mr. ROBINSON explained. He had not meant to attribute a vanS
of decorum to any Member of the Committee. His complaints were
against the constitution of the Committee.

Sir E. CODRINGTON rose to present a petition from certain trades;
men, claiming a certain sum of money for the building and furnishing
York-house. It appeared that Government were ready to pay the bills se-
cording to the work ozine ; and Lord Liverpool insisted upon there
being paid. A grant of certain mines in Nova Scotia was given to the
Duke, but some dispute took place upon its authenticity, which
after a correspondence between Mr. Dawson, the then Secretary of State,
the Duke of Wellington, and others, was sufficiently established.