The Sun.
London, England, 1832-05-15 00:00:00

Howe upon the candid and conciliating manager will&
they were likely to have under the new Administration—
one likely to put such a charitable and benignant construc-
tion upon the telt:duct of the Members of that House.—
(Cheers.) He had been informed but a short time since
that an Hon. Friend had described the Hon. Gentleman
opposite is having spoken of him (Sir T. Denman) na a
mub•courting Attorney General ; but, oh ! said the Hon.
Gentleman opposite, that happened a long while ago, and
he might have said something of the sort, hut it was really
tr n hard to call him to account for it, after such a lapse
of time ; hut that was not the only attack made upon him
by the Hon. Member. He complained of that Hon.
Member's making it a matter of accusation against tale
Attorney-General, that he did not prosecute some atro-
cious libel upon somebody, though the alleged libel ap-
peared in a public paper for the first time on the morning
of the day upon which he had given in his resignation.—
(Loud and continued cheering.) Now, he would not ask
whether that was generous or handsome ; but he would
ask was it just ?—( Hear.) When the proper time came,
if come it ever should, when he should be called upon to en-
ter on a defence of his conduct in that House, he should be
prepared to demonstrate that it would have been most
foolish to have engaged in such prosecutions as the Hon.
Member recommended ; and that if they had been entered
upon and proceeded with, they would have redounded
nothing to the credit of those concerned, or to the benefit
of the country. There was no one conversant with the
administration of justice who did not feel perfectly con-
vinced that prosecutions were useless, unless whe❑ they
happened to be in accordance with the state of public
opinion. He believed that, upon the fullest review of his
conduct, it would he found that he had prosecuted in every
instance in which prosecution was expedient or sate ; and
he referred to the special cotntnis•ions issued while he was
in the service of the Crown as evidence of the principles
by which his official conduct had been governed. It really
seemed as if the Hon. Member thought that a libel and a❑
Attorney-General ought not to exist at the same moment.
—(A laugh.) Much had been said on the subject of the
new Government, but he really thought that had as little
to do with the topics which the Hon. Gentleman opposite
introduced—that he might say much of the debating had
as little to do with the real matter in hand as had the
debates that might at present he going en in the French
Chamber of Deputies.—(Hear, hear.) In departing from
the matter properly under consideration, lie regretted to
think that some very indiscreet observations had been
made—lie regretted to think that anything likely to pro-
duce irritation should at any time have been uttered—he ff
regretted that any persor, should have been found too ready
to exhibit the sword ; hut of this he felt perfectly assured,
that there was not a Member of the late Government who
would not willingly forego all chance of ever again being
employed in the, service of the public for the sake of seeing
the great rneasme of Reform quietly and peaceably carried.
(Ileae.) It had been made matter of accusation against
the late Government, that they had used the King's name
—yes, they had hoped that the King's name would have
proved the means of union—would have proved " a tower
of strength ;" but, they had not found it so, though clothed
with full authority for its use. Without, however, enter-
ing any further into personal feelings, he should, were that
the last moment of hie life, pray that men might take care
of themselves, but that the House of Commons might
ake care of the country and pass the Bill. If the Bill
were tent down to them from the House of Lords unmuti-
late-i, the change of the Government was a matter of
secondary consideration. The great object was to have
the Bill passed with the shortest possible delay ; and were
that object but once accomplished, we could not fail to be
one of the most prosperous, great, happy, and powerful
peop,e upon which the sun ever shone.
Mr. A. BARING—The observation to which the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman alludes was quoted by an Hon.
Member as having been tittered by me more than twelve
months ago. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman also
says, that I have imputed blatne to him for net prosecuting
those persons who have been libelling the Queen. Now, I
brought no charge against the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man. What I said was, that there was a general tendency
to vilify and degrade persons in power; and amongst the
rest the Royal Family, who formerly used to be under the
especial protection of the law, but who now seem to have
no one to defend them. Whether the Attorney• General
ought to prosecute tinder such circumstances I will not
say ; but I chiefly quoted it as a specimen of the altered
state of the times.

Mr. Alderman WAITHNIAN thought, that ifthe Duke
of Wellington had accepted office for the purpose of car•
ruing the Reform Bill, it was impossible to quote a stronger
instance of political aunstacy.--(Cheers.). The Hou•e of
Commons, he trusted, would be on the alert to protect
the people, and to baffle the wretched intrigues that were
going on behind the curtain.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. INGLIS was nearly inaudible in the gallery.
lie was understood to say, that to public men character
was of the first importance ; and as long as the character
of public men stood high, the country to which they be-
longed had great and favourable resources i❑ their in-

tegrity ; for which reason, to a certain extent, he agreed
in the principles which had been laid down by the two
Noble Lords on the opposite side. Fur himself, humble as
he was, he trusted that he had always bore that in mind ;
and he was sure that he could confidently state, that,
though he had opposed the Reform Bill, he had done so
entirely from princip!e, and not at all fro:n any enmity
towards the authors of that measure.—(Hear, hear.) He
was sorry that so much allusion had been made to the
King ; and he thought that the House would do well to
remember that the Sovereign could only be known through
the acts of his Ministers ; and it was therefore very un-
just to undertake to pronounce upon the opinions of the
Crown, when it was not even known who at this moment
were ita responsible advisers. With respect to the Duke
of Wellington, he certainly must say, that if that Noble
Duke accepted place with the intention of giving his sane-
lion to Reform, he was loin t that which was wrong, and
vastly out of keeping with all his former declaration on
the subject.—(Cheers.) He would not take upon himself to
say what tnight. be the motive—whether it was am-
bition, or whether it was anything else—but be it what
it might, he thought that there were no considerations
which, under such circumstances, could justify the Noble
Duke in taking office—(Cheers)—for it was impossible
chat there could be any doubt as to his sentiments after
the protest and the speeches which he had made upon the
subject.—(Loud cheers.) But still he thought that the
House was somewhat prejudging the question, for it was
still left untouched and unknown whether the Noble Duke
had conceded this point or not.—( Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Baronet concluded by making some 'comments on
Lord Milton's expression relative to loyalty and devotion,
requiring no one to yield to the caprice of any man, how-
ever high his station ; but it was impossible to catch the
tenour of the Honensable Baronet's observations.
Lord MILTON—The Hun. Baronet does not seem ex-
' ac.ly to have understood what I said. My expressions
were these : I hoped that there was in these realms no
human being so high as to induce another to sacrifice to
him, through loyalty or devotion, his own solemnly re-
corded opini.m.—(Cheers.) And I must say that I think
the Hon. Baronet himseif has sanctioned by his speech
every tittle of that sentiment.—(Cheers.)
Sir 11. PEEL—I must say, that I have a strong feeling
that the House has this evening engaged in a discussion
which, for many reasons, is injudicious.—(Hear, hear.)
We are not in possession of that information which is es-
sential for the purpose of forming a correct judgment on
many auhjects which have in consequence been argued lay-
potliecally. Now, Sir, I take the liberty of suggesting
to the House to consider the position in which the King
of this country is placed. His Majesty has re-
cently accepted the resignation of those who were his con-
fidential servants. I can undertake to pronounce no opi-
nion as to the course which they have assumed, because
no explanation has been given in detail of the circum-
stances under which their advice was offered, so as to ena-
ble me to form a satisfactory judgment on the course which
they have pursued. I certainly infer that the cave is this,
—that, in order to carry a certain measure through the
other House of Parliament, the Ministers advised his
Majesty to create a number of Peers. What that number
sv.s- I know not. Some say, to an indefinite extent ;

others have named 30, 40, 60, or 70 ; but at all events,
to such an extent as would have proved fetal to the House
of Lords.—(Cheers.) His Majesty declined to accede to
that advice, and the constquence is, the King is now at-

tempting to form another Administration. Now it appears
in the rourse of these debates on this very day, that there
is no one who ha, authority in this House to speak on the
part of that Administration. The Hon. Member for

Hertford, referring irregu'Arly, but perhaps necessarily, to
what his taken place in another House, has told us that

there a declaration WiS made to the effect, that another

Administration was formed.

If the Hun, Member him-

self beard that statement, it is of course unlikely that
there can be any mistake on the subject • but it certainly
does seem strange that an Administration should be formed,
and that there should he no one in this House to give any
explanation on the subject.--( Hear, bear.) If, therefore,
the lion. Member has only spoken from report, I should
he inclined to think that report must be erroneous.
the declaration alluded to was only to the effect that the
King was occupied in attempting to form another Adrni.
nistration, n ithout any explanation as to the principles
upon which that Administration was to be formed, I put
it to the House whether declarations of determined 6,350.

lity to a hypothetical Administration are. not 3ornewh;t
premature?—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. tHiNCOMBE—In what I aid relative to wha'
has taken place this evening in the House of Lords. I
referred to what one of the reporters had taken down. The
passage that was read to me was to this effect---that
Lord Carnarvon had risen in his place to say that an Ad-
ministration was formed, except in some of its minor de-
'ails ; after which he went on to move that the Order of
the lley for the Committee on the Reform Bill should be
paoponed till Thursday, thereby evincing that that Bill
had now got into other hands.
Sir R. PEEL—The Noble Paymaster of the Fortes
thought proper to refer to me with respeet to the course
I might pursue at this juncture. Now I will tell the
Noble Lord fairly, that I do not think that prudence of
respect to the House requires me to make any answer to
his observations on the present occasion. I think that the
Noble Lord's reference to me was entirely unnecessary ;
and I will tell the Noble Lord further, that some time
ago, when office was not within my reach, I stated that
it was no object to me: now that it is within my reach,
will again repeat that observation ; so that it will he seen
that I claim no credit for any supposed sacrifice.—( Hear.
hear ) If the Noble Lord's inference is correct—that I
feel unable to enter into the service of the Crown—l will
at all events add this to it—that I bitterly regret that, in
the situation in which his Majesty is now placed, I am not
able to accept office ; and that the greatest regret that
attends my refusal of office is the possibility of its afford-
ing, an opportunity for sarcasm being painted by contrast
against those weo feel themselves able to join the new Ad-
ministration.—(Cheers from the Ministerial side.) What-
ever course my Noble Friend (the Duke of Wellington)
may pursue—whether or no I may be able to pursue that
course too—this I will say, that I never felt a more perfect
confidence of anything in my li'e than that course (be it
what it may) will be dictated by the highest courage and
the _purest sense of honour that ever influenced the actions
of any public man, either in accepting or in retiring from
of ee.--( Hear, hear.)
Loral JOHN RUSSELL—I can assure the Right Hon.
Baronet in what I said I had no intention of casting any im-
putat:on on him whatever. On the contrary, it was my
sincere belief, when addressing the House, that the Right
Hon. Baronet was not going to accept office ; and, there-
fore, the words that I used could not be intended as any
reproach to him. I conceive that the Right Hiatt. Bert.
is much too careful of his public fame to accept office under
present circumstances.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME—Sir. I wish to put a question to you,
which seems to me of no little importance. I wish to ask
you, Sir, whether the Address of this House has been pre-
sented to the King ; and if any answer whatever to that
Address has been made ? Four days have now elapsed
since the Address was voted. The House, it appears,
knows nothing of the matter ; and it will he extremely
satisfactory if you, Sir, are able to give us any information
of any answer that may be expected.
The SPEAKER.—The only explanation that I am
able to offer is, that the Address was transmitted, and that
it has come to the hands of the King's establishment, into
whose hands such Addresses are usually delivered, for the
purpose of being presented. The reason for their not be-
ing any :newer to that Address at the present moment I
can only guess at like the Hen. Member, or any other
gentlemen. It may he that the King feels that, not
having responsible Ministers, it is better to delay his an-
swer. For any certain reason, however, the Hon. Mem-
ber must not ask me; for I do not know mote about the
matter than any other Member of this House. I only
know that the Address was sent to his Majesty's household
—that it is in the hands of tue King—or that at least he
is apprized of it.
Mr. HUME—Am Ito understand that the address on
the 10th of May is not yet in the hands of the King ?
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member must he aware
that I am utterly unable to answer that question ; and if
he draws the inference that I mean so and so, I beg to
in'oran him that I meant nothing but to assure him and
the House that the address was regularly conveyed in the
usual manner—that I have no doubt that it is in the
proper channel—and that I presumed the reason for there
being no answer yet, was the difficulty that there is as to
the channel through which that answer is to he conveyed.
The Earl of BELFAST said a few words, which were
very indistinctly heard. His Lordship was understood
to confirm the statement of the Speaker.
The question was then put, ‘• That the petition be
brought up."—Motion agreed to.
The next question way, " That the petition he read.
On which

Lord EBRINGTON rose—After the allusion that has
been made to me personally in the course of this discus-
sion, I trust that I may be permitted to trouble the House
with a very few words. The Right Hon. and Gallant
Officer who spoke early in the debate, and who I am sorry
not now to see in his place.—(Here Sir H. H irdinge, to
whom the Noble Lord was alluding, rtsume4 his seat.)
The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer has charged me with
haying made an attack on the Duke of Wellington for a breach
of public morality. I beg, however, to say, that I only put an
hypothetical case ; and upon that case I stated, as I now
state, that if it is true and correct, I can apply no milder
term to the Duke's conduct. The Noble Duke's friends
ate under a mistake if they suppose that there is anything
in his great name, in his high situation, or even in his
eminent services—which no one is more ready gratefully
to acknowledge than myself—l say the Noble Duke's
friends are touch mistaken if they suppose that there is
anything in these circumstances which can screen his
character, as a public man, from undergoing the samein-
vestigation, from being subject to the same discussion, from
being judged on the same principles, and from being de-
cided upon on the same ground+ with those of every other
public man in this country.—(Cheers.) Sir, it is with
this freedom and in this manner that I shall always assert
my right as an independent Member of Parliament.—
(Hear, hear.) I trust that I shall always do so with the
iespect that is due to this House, and in language be-
coming to myself as a gentleman ; and, indeed, I trust
that I am not in the habit of bringing any charge against
my political opponents in any other language, notwith-
standing what the Hon. Member fur Thetford has been
pleased to lay to my charge. That Hon. Gentleman has

thought proper to read me a lesson with respect to my sup-
posed want of common decency, for such, I think, were
the words that he presumed to apply to me. Sir, I will
not bandy such terms backwards and forwards with the
Honourable Gentleman, but be must allow me to say, that

if there is any one in this House to whom I should he dis-
posed to apply such language, it would be, to him, rising
this night, as he has done, to make a tardy defence of po-
litical inconsistency on the part of himself or others, when
I have heard him, time after time, in this House, raking
up speeches made ten or twenty years ago, together with
extracts from pamphlets ; and, on the strength of these,
applying to IT)), Noble Friend terms of vituperation, which
until this Reform Bill was introduced, I never heard ap-
plied by anybody, in the greatest heat of political party,
to any Minister of the Crown. Gentlemen seem this
evening to have argued as if there was no alternative to i e
adopted by the Noble Duke, except either admitting a
forced creation of Peers by the King, or accepting the
Government of the couutry and dragging the Lords to the
passing of the Bill. But, Sir, is there no third course ?

—(Loud cheering.) Is it absolutely necessary thaw those
who have so deeply pled4ed themselves against the Bill,
should now be compelled to eat their words?—(Hear,
hear.) I wish that the Right Honourable Baronet, or
any person not liable to any imputivions, would show how
it can be settled. If the Noble Duke himself could stand
up and say that the impossibility he finds to conduct the
affairs of the country would make him use all his influence
among his friends t 3 pass the measure, he would succeed,
no doubt, in putting an end to further discussion.—
(Hear, hear.) I will not say when that should be done,
or when it would come toe late. If a course of that de
scription had been adopted within the last few days, even
within the last forty-eight hours, much peril would have
been avoided to the country. The character of the Noble
Duke would have stood a great deal higher, and he wool.,
have entitled himself to the lasting gratitude of the coun-
try. At the same time the character and conduct of the
House of Lords would not be subject, as under other
circumstances they would, to lasting execration.
Mr. BARING—I hope the House will excuse me foi
again obtruding myself upon its notice, after what has
fallen from the .Noble Lord. I can assure the
Noble Lord and the Honourable Attorney. General
that the look and tone which it had pleased them to
assume—the taunts they have thrown out—(Cliters)—
,shall not make me swerve from my opinion, or prevent ere
from fearlessly discharging my duty in this House.—
(Hear.) The Noble Lind—but be said so many thing-
that I hardly recollect what 1 should first reply to.—
(Some Hon. Member whispered Mr. Baring.) yea, it
the Noble Lord, getting up with a high hand, using ex-
pressions in die course of tie discussion implying that I
am disentitled to the ordinary courtesy of the House—it
:he Noble Lord chooses to make me the butt to that sort
of expressions, I can only tell the Noble Lord that I hold
them in otter contempt.—(Cheers.) From the time I
have been in the House, I am sure that my reputation will
not suffer from any such personal observations on account
of a difference of opinion.— (Cheers.) With the leave
of the House, I will say a little on the question notwith-
standing. The objections I made to the course lately
adopted, is the same as that stated by my Right Hon.
Friend (Sir R. Peel), viz., that the subject is not yet ripe
for discussion. Respecting the conduct of the late Go-

---
vernment, I ;avow that my opinions are made up ; but the
House has no evidence; it cannot know whom the Crowi

' has surplused to defend it. It is premature then to entert ii,
I the subject at present ; but whatever situation I may stand
in towards the House, when it can be fairly discussed, I shot
fearlessly state my opinion. As to what the Hon. Gentle
man said about my inconsistency, or the inconsistency-of a
much greater man—for the Duke of Wellington, however
touch some people might now scoff at him, had a great
debt of gratitude owing to him by the country—l must
say that neither he nor I have altered our opinions. We
do not now say that the Reform Bill, which we described
as a had Bill, is a good Bid. Ido not hold any such
opinion, and we—(A Isugh)—have not changed. lam
confident that we cannot be accused of inconsistency. The
case stands thus :—ln the opinion of the King, the Crowh
feels itself forced to feel certain scruples, and these scruples
will not allow him to do what is desired of him. It will
not be said that these scruples, at least, are not reasonable
' scruples. The Noble Lord at the head of the Ministry
stated himself repeatedly that the measure, about which
the Crown has scruples, lie should take with reluctant—
no, that was a weak term—but with the greatest repug-
nance. If that were felt by the Noble Earl—and no man
doubted his integrity—surely the scruples of the Crown
were entitled to some respect.—(Hear, hear.) I know
that, under whatevsr circumstances, the n one of the
Crawn arid of the King is introduced in this House, it is
unconstitutional ; hut, at present, it was impossible to do
otherwise. The Crown had no confidential advisers in
the House to make known its resolutions. A conflict had
taken place between the Crown and its confidential ad-
visers, and, therefore, at present, the King had no confi-
dential advisers. The King did not choose to (moldy
with the advice his servants had given, and the Mini-tors
had resigned. I ask the House to consider what it the si-
tuation of the King when his Ministers have resigned?
These scruples &serve some respect, and when the House
recollected the persecution which those were exposed to
nut of doors and in th it House who entertained these
scruples, it was extraordinary that any body should be
found to give advice to the Crown. The act was not
done under ordinary circumstances, for every man
must be aware of the excessive excitement which
pervades the country. It might be fairly supposed
that no man would to to the Sovereign, but that the
Sovereign would call upon sonic person to give him advice
in the dilemma in which he is placed. I suppose Ido
not know what passed, but I suppose that the King might
have called for same person, and might have said to hint,
" Since I found that the Government could not be other-
wise carried no, I made a pledge to my people, which
I will not give up, but at the same I am so placed, that I
cannot admit, according to the Constitution, that the
other branch of the Lecislature should be forced to agree
with the Commons unless some very strong case should
arise, and 1 do not sse that any case has yet arisen in
which I can fairly be called on to interfere." Suppose
the Duke of Wellington was the person so called upon—
he says, " I cannot help myself, I do not admit the prin-
ciples of this Bill, but sin I therefore, as a consequence
of that, to treat the King's commands with neglect, and
refuse to pass the Bill ; or am I to advise him to pass the
Bill, and support the King, in advising what all admit to
be the greatest violence to the Constitution ?' I doubt
not but the Noble Duke might have come to some such
conclusion ; and what man can doubt the honesty and-in-
tegrity of the Noble Duke, or throw any suspicions on
his consistency ? Ido not, any more than I doubt that
the Noble Duke possesses much of that courage which
enables a man to resist taunts and sneers and sarcasms.—
(Cheers and laughter.) Against such sneers and sarcasms
I shall support my opinion ; and I have no doubt that the
Noble Duke would have courage to meet such sarcasms,
and support the King in that conflict in which he is in-
volved, because he does not choose to endanger the
Constitution by committing a fatal violence on one
part of it. That is, I take it, an honest view; and
I shall say sincerely, that the Noble Duke, with-
out changing his mind—not seeing any thing is the
Bill to approve of, but seeing the state of excitement
in the country—seeing the (linger to which it might
lead, supposing nothing else would end it—might resolve
to stand by the King in this dilemma, and expose himself
to all the difficulties of the situation, for the purpose of
protecting his Sovereign. That appears to me to have
been the course, and that the Noble Duke would not in-
to! fere to give his advice to the King till the King sent
for hint. 1 will say one word as to the necessity of such
a resolution as was come to by his Majesty's Ministers.
If the Ministers of the Croon had waited, they might have

a<cer uinefi, in 48 hours atter the Peers had given their vote,
whether it is-as the intention of the Peers by that vote to
defeat the Bill, or whether they meant to vote for the
whole disfranchisement of Schedule A. Upwards of one
half of the Peers who voted against the Ministers stated
their intention of voting for Schedule A. Now Schedule A
was the key-stone of the Bill ; and, when that was the case,
could the King not say, " the time is not arrived when I
can be called on to exercise my prerogative: do not conic
to me with a vague report of what the Peels may do ; put
their intentions to the test—wait 48 hours, and see if they
will vote for Schedule A. " It should he recollected that
the Bill was safe in the Ministers' hands after the vote
of the Peers. It could always be reinstated if injured,
and it was the same as if the Bill were actually in danger.
I shill state ftirly that I have had many opportunities of
knowing the opinions of the Opposition Peer,, and I shall
mention what I know of their opinion of Schedule A.
One of those Peers, who had a principal hand in uinag-
in.; the opposition to the Bill, told me, that he had no
doubt that the Peers would pass the whole of Schedule A.
" My opinion is (said he) alter making my calculation—l
_.•

. .
mention no names—my opinion is, that there will not
be twenty votes against Schedule A."--(Hear.) That w.is
before the question between the King and his Ministers
had become the subject of public notice; and it was told
me by one of the Noble Lords who was undertaking the
opposition to the Bill. The measure then proposed by the
Ministers was only to be resorted tai in extreme cases; but
there were no circumstances to justify such a measure,
and the Ministers would not wait forty-eight Lours to put
to the test the opinion, of the Peers. The Noble Lora
said, he feared that there was na hop of accommodating
these differences. I have bad long experience in this
House, and I never once saw a care in which tl e Consti-
tution was exposed to hazard, when the whole body of the
landed gentlemen did not interfere aa mediators, arid bring
out some understanding on the matter. The Noble Lord
says, or at least his words, I think, bear that construction,
that he should be glad if anything could be done to give an
approach even to such a proposal ; and that if the Peers
would vote schedule A, that [night induce the Ministers of
the Crown to relax in their determination, and not to ad-
vise that which they only thought a less evil than not risk-
ing the measure. I should think myself, that if Lord Grey
goes hack to the King, and stating his unwillingness to
employ those means which lie had already admitted he en-
tertained a great repugnance to perform, and stating that
he expected, with great probability, that the Lords would
not differ from him, except as to the details of the Bill,
if Lord Grey would so state to the Kiog, I see no diffi-
culty of the Ministers again taking their places.—(Hear,
hear.) I do not see any objection to this.—(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) It is with entire sincerity that I state
this. I say that I wish not to interfere in any Admiois-
tration, and particularly in an Administration forme,:
under the very difficult circumstances in which the
country is now placed. To 11/C, who never wished
fur public life, it would be a fatal thing, and nothing
but the most urgent necessity should ever tempt me to
take office in any shape. The Honourable Gentlemen
whom I followed for .25 years, know that I never asked
them for any place whatever.—(Hear, bear.) I shall
nor, therefore, be thought a person ready to do anything
rash or base for the purpose of obtaining place.--(Hear.)
I shall state, that it would be with the very greatest re-
luctance that I should undertake any office, and that re-
luctance, great at any time, must be doubly great at un-
dertaking it when I know, instead of having the House
of Commons at my command, what opposition I should
meet with, making it a place of the greatest difficulty. At
the same time, feeling the strength of my cause—feeling,
in fact, that I ought nut to abandon the King—there is no
peril, no danger, no difficulty, I would not encounter, and
nothing I would not undertake, which I thought con-
scientiously it was my duty, as an honest man, to under
take.—(Cheers.) But, as I said before, it would be much
for the good of the country if the present Adminiatration
were not dissolved. That they should quit office would
be one of the greatest calamities passible. When the Bill
should be pussed—(cheers)—which has excited so many
.-xpectations in the country—(hear, hear)—it was ex•
hected, as the
of
Kent,ash
e
leaned
re it blessings. It would be very unfortunate for the
Government which should be in office, when the expects-
Icitt it tra
wouldm the
lead canvass
ts o s some
ngoing
for the county
~
tionl of the great advantages raised by this Bill—the ex-
tretue anticipitions—shall be disappointed.---(Hear.)—_
The public will then gay, that if the Reformed Govern•
uncut had remained in, something more would have been
given
to us.—(Hear, from Mr. Hunt.) It I were looking
o public life—and I am looking only to retirement-.shod
itffwere looking to public life, the best thing I should de.
sire ivonld be, to form part of an Administration to suc-
ceed the present Ministers.—(Hear, bear.) We have
heard much of the blessings to be derived from this Bill.
But when the disappointment comes, that will give any
succeeding Administration which may want it any east
triumph ; if any man—for example, my Right Hot.
Friend (Sir R. Perl)—who finds it as difficult to keep out
of office as ordinary persons find it to thrust themselves
in, were ever so desirous of power, and poesisse4 even of El

grain of common @ease, he could not wish to get into
place at this crisis. I shall state, that individuals might
with advantage try to diminish the breach between the
Crown and its Ministers ; and I am not without hopes,
from what fell from the Noble Lord, that some communi-
cation would be made to his Majesty, that his Majesty
might be relieved from that which he go much deprecated,
and which was known by one word—swamping the
Peers. It is not possible to deny that the Bill rney pasts
that schedule A may receive the assent of tie Peers ; :int!
if the Peers do not refuse to pass schedule A. there is
nothing to justify the Ministers in giving up. I find nsy.
self in a peculiar situation, and I make this statement ti
the House with perfect sincerity ; and if I could assist it
bringing about a settlement without any injury to the
Constitution, I can assure the House it would be one 0f
the happiest moments of my life.—(Cheers.)
Lord EBRINGTON said a few words, which were no
audible in the gallery.
Sir FRANCIS BCRDETT had heard with grea'
set:sfaction what had fallen front the Hon. Gentleman.
He acknowledged that the Hon. Gentleman had given at.
opinion to which he attached great weight, and that what
he said was the usual mods of proceeding under ordinary
circumstances. Nobody felt more strongly than he die
those unpleasant circumstances; hut that they had arrived
was not the fault in the lest of his Majesty's Ministers.
They were placed in a situation in which he must say they
could do no otherwise. Of all the duties of public men,
none was more imperative than that of preserving theit
character and honour, for, without preserving them, they
could not be of service to the public. He did not doubt
his Majesty's good intentions nor the candour of the Iteya
mind, neither did he doubt that his Majesty was placer;
in circumstances of exceeding difficulty ; and not doubting
either thecandour of the Royal mind, nor the difficulty of the
Royal situation, he was sure, if his Majesty found it difficult to
decide, he must also be sensible of the difficult circum-
stances of his Ministers; and he could not be astonished
that they should have resigned, nor could he find in their
having done so any cause of complaint. Under these
circumstances, he trusted and hoped that means would
be found of procuring the success of that B 11, with
out any useless discussion, when, under the circum-
stances of the country, its final suceess was inevi
table. lie could not see anything which should destroy
his hopes. The Royal mind was open to reason.
The King had no private views ; he never had
any. He had always said to his Ministers, do what you
think right, without considering ;do what is for the
good of the country, and let that be your only guide. The
King wished nothing but the prosperity of the people ;
and only thought how their benefit might he promoted.
Ha was sorry to see such a Sovereign deprived, by a
misapprehension, of tie affections of his people, to which
he was altogether entitle!. The Hon. Gentleman, who
had just sit down, said that the Duke of Wellington con-
sidered himself called upon. at the sacrifice of mime part of
his high character, in the dilemma in which the country
was placed, to give some advice required by his regard fur
the public safety, which he otherwise did not approve of.
That Noble Duke was sacitorts for the public eyed. It,
then, there were other persons of a different disposition,
low and factious intriguers, who had interfered between the
nation and the Crown, the nation would know how to
treat them. They were not answerable for the come.
quences, for they were unknown. Men owed their fit st
allegiance to themselves, and it was impossible for Lord
Grey to submit to have his Bill taken out of his hands by
the House of Lords without resigning, and preserve that
high sense of honour which was due to hirmelf. What-
ever might be said of the factious band of the House of
Lords,—(Order, and Cheers,)—they, it must be allowed, it
t:sey were not factious, were the most short-sighted men
that ever existed, to risk the tranquillity of the country,
and everything that ought to be dear to them, in older
to preserve their own peculiar privileges, which were
hostile to the welfare of the people.—( Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Gentleman said, that there was no doubt that the Lords
would have adopted schedule A; and the lion. Gentleman said,
very properly, that it was one of the principles of the Bill, The
Right Hon. Baronet, too (Sir R. Peel, had admitted that it was
one of the principles of the Bill; and if the Lords would have
consented to that, as was stated, how easily might all these
difficulties have been avoided. Let it, however, be remembered,
that the Duke of Wellington concurred in the vote for post.
poning schedule A ; and, if he were now convinced that the
Bill must be passed, lie had shown, at least, such a want of
foresight, as did not entitle him to claim to direct the councils
of the country, under the present difficult circumstances. It
the Duke of Wellington were Prime Minister, it would not he
sufficient to say that he would pass the Ihil—an investigation
must take place into all the circumstances which had occurred.
He looked upon the Duke of Wellington as answerable
from his accession to office, and responsible for all the
consequences which might follow.—(No, no, and laughter.)
His Majesty could take no step by himself and unadvised.
His Majesty did nothing Without the advice of his Ministers.
The Sovereign was not responsible, but his public servants
were responsible for the consequences of every change.
The Noble Lord (Ebrington) had justly said that the
conduct of the Lords in not passing the Bill had caused great
inconvenience—in his opinion they hail risked the safety and
tranquillity of the country. These were the sentiments of the
whole nation ; there was hardly one who was not satisfied that
the Lords had by their conduct stopped the progress of ali
public business, and interrupted the whole course of legisla-
tion. He had always maintained the propriety of that old
portion
of issuingnofthe writsto someprerogatives,which gav
weehri Majesty the
power es
increasing
in
importance, and of not issuing writs to places which had fallen
into decay. He believed that portion of the Prerogative to
have been highly necessary; and if it had been continued in
exercise, he was confident the two Houses of Parliament
would not have got into that state in which they now found
themselves. That power was, however, now denied to the
Crown ; and he saw much to regret in the denial. He was
to he against its exer-
cise,
not aware that it wonld be an illegal exercise of the prero.
gative. He knew not the Act or Statute in which the in_
terdiction was to be found ; but supposing
hoenewocualudse
aosrk,anointhewr,iw
way
the general
were they to
escape from a difficulty such as that in which they
now found themselves; unless by having recourse
to the old prerogative of creating Peers ? If no other
feelingt, then,
from
n,
way could be found, then he would maintain that the prero-
gative would be justly and properly exercised in the r rcation of
new Peers, rather than run the risk of thrown g the country
into confusion.—(Hear.) There was one thing ct nnected with
the present position of affairs to which he wis red shortly to
allude. A Judge, one of the highest in the land, a Criminal
Judge of the most eminent station, had appeared on all occa-
sions as a violent politician.—(Hear.) He would contend that
a Judge, and still more a Criminal Judge, should hold himself
utterly cut off' from politics, and front the conflicts of party.
He would suppose this Noble person sitting on the Bench ad-
ministering justice ; he would suppose that a stranger entered
the Noble Lord's Court in the morning, and that he saw much
reason to admire the calm dignity and self-possession with
which the Noble Baron dispensed justice to the suitors. What,
he would ask, would that same stranger have said had he seen
the Noble Baron in the evening ?—(Hear.) How much sur-
prised would he not have been to see the Noble raron turned
into a political partisan, and heading, in the House of Lords,
a violent and virulent faction ?—(Hear.)
Lord STORMONT rose, amid some confusion and cries of

" Order," and" Bar," to remind the lion. Baronet that he was
outstepping the ordinary rules of debate. He would ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair whether the mention of
the Members of the other House had not, in all cases, been held
sacred ? He would put it to the Right Hon. Gentleman whe-
ther such a use of the word faction was not unparliamentary
in that House, and whether it had not always been the wish, as
well as the practice, of Us Members to avoid applying to the
Members of the other House expressions which they would re.
gard as a violation of privilege, if applied to the Members of the
Commons
The SPEAKER, thus called on, said, that if the Hon. Baro.
net was putting a case hypothetically, and adhered to his hypo_
thesis, he could not be pronounced out of order ; but it certainly
woul
liable—(Cheers;—and
boesfe,pci
neKevore
dEniyist.t o drawnt e
interrupted
pte picturethe ofi oiwhat
.:tahreoo Hon. Baronet
believed to have occurred. The lion. Baronet was out of
Si
whic
y
Th
order, in his opinion, if he applied to the Members of the other
House expressions
twhichhe 3,
ewmobuel not
of havebot h
Houses
tec3i
teri:seet
aetinelh:tiaultvaoillbtli
the courtesies
,td,hi.
(s cß:tde
eTeR: hTaeTn}Hdiseaoh
iue,ays
raehisep iwemfaatappliedese:neoyt h aet
aokaristenh
gone
foMembers
of a,i
disease,
sset of thefe,:n ty
to
thing
bel
rs
lhaattedhtehheaodrdp
permitted
of:the:
tHousehe e.ipntroesa alluding
e
the warmth of debate; but it by no means followed, shuenrdivioevtdiicoted, because he believed them
cause he had allowed the disorderly expressionsiogwinedailythtaotpbase:
ae been t utteredp pass
s smiin-
o
annodtienedothoinngcec,otlhdadtbehemwlasermaedtooestoricvotenh,tawinnuuto! to do so ever after.—
of
(Hear, hear.) To ascribe
bag; attf:tieponai
enhaldal.
enki trdsi
hmoaci
same
eaeselah,l,vd:
Membersshd oncee
dror
idtpatedtsoricl
the other House as the
ne
j:she
huphoadeodbg, been,nkeeee.npo
arieui
,ahidltecrlwect
to:
tsul
because
ymao,utaisanz
tohhoiedei
ebenraet
tletiirreo,fivfeil:dgdi
debate,
the words to have been
theyy
should derive an importance from being noticed, which
would not otherwise attach to them.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir F. BURDETT resumed, and observed, that he had been
anxious to avoid all appearance of warmth on the occasion.
lie was merely speaking of that which he thought he had a
right, nay, that it was his duty to mention—the conduct of a
—(Hear, herr.) He was speaking, as it was his duty
to do, of the effect of intrigues, he knew not by whom carried
on, and among the other misfortunes of their situation, he had.
alluded to a Judge. He did not call hini the leader of a faction,
but the leader of a party—the maker and unmaker of Admi-
nistrations—a man who was seen every where—(Hear, hear,
and a laugh)—who seemed to have tinder his legal robes the
motley dress of a harlequin—(hear, hear, and tt laugh)—
a man, in short, who was every thing and every person—who
seemed to be all mankind's epitome—(A laugh)—and who
was in expectance, by his manoeuvres, of reaching the very
highest office in the. State. Tbis is what he had been speaking
of as an vent to be deplored.—(Hear, hear.) Thee seemed,

, .
however, to be a rumour, a sort of miscreatecl rumour-14W,
and a laugh;—that an Administration under such circum-
stances and auspices could not be formed, and if anything was
to happen in the present state of the country, such was the
condition to which they were reduced, that it was hard to
know to WllOlll, in such a case, the King was to apply. This,
then, was the situation to which they were reduced by the urn
fortunate opposition to the Bill. Those who had been thus
far so successful seemed, however, to he frightened at their
own work. He might say, in the language of the Poet—
'. For 'tis the sport to hate the engineer
Hoist with his own petar"—
(Cheers)—and it should rejoice all those who were friendly to
Reform to see its opponents undone by the fulfilment of their
wishes.--(Hear, hear.) The question now, however, was, not
what had been done, hut what was to be done. He wished to
see how the affairs of the country could be retrieved. That was,
in his opinion, by placing the Government of the country again
in the hands in which it could be placed so as to obtain the con-
fidence of the country, and by passing the Reform Bill, the de-
lay or refusal of which had been the cause of all their difficul-
ties. How that was to be brought about he did not know, but
he had full reliance on the moderation and wisdom of the peo-
ple.—(Cheers.) This, however, he also knew, that the spirit of
the people of England was so thoroughly roused that there was
no hope of appeasing them save by just and reasonable conces-
sion ; and he saw no way in which that could be done unless
by restoring to their places those holiest Ministers who had
been separated, lie trusted not disunited, from the Crown (with-
out complaint, at least, on the side of those Ministers,) By
placing them in their former situation he hoped to see a speedy
and a peaceable settlement of all dissensions.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) A Noble Lord, according to the Member for Thetford
Baring) had declared that the Lords would have passed oche-
dole A without change or amendment. That might be so ;
but then their Lordships took good care not to let Lord Grey
into that secret, and therefore his Lordship had no course left ,
except that which he had adopted. He agreed, indeed, with
the Noble Earl, that it was the main and fundamental principle
of Ihe Bill, and that after the declaration of- the Noble and
Learned Lord, (Lyndhurst) in moving the Amendment, that
he wished to enfranchise first, and to disfranchise only accord.
ing to the extent to which it might be found necessary after-
wards, he thought the Noble Earl was justified in considering
the division as deciding the consent to the principle of the Bill.
He thought it would become the Duke of Wellington much
more if, instead of getting together a Cabinet to carry the
same Bill, and then, as it was reported, resigning immediately
afterwards, he used his influence with the House of Peers to in.
duce them to pass the Bill under the auspices of the Minister
who had first proposed it to them. If he did so, he would have
the gratification of seeing the Constitution again an object of
veneration to the people, and the Monarch restored to the affec-
tions of his subjects.
Mr. HUME never addressed the House under circumstances
of so much alarm and apprehension, speaking both politically
and commercially. He confessed, therefore, he had heard
with the greatest pleasure the dawn even of a chance of recon
ciliation in the present agitated state of the country.--(Hear.)
He thought there could not be a greater blessing to _the coun-
try than such a termination, and that the man who would suc-
ceed in bringing it about and calming the existing excitement,
would deserve the thanks and gratitude of the people. He was
anxious to avoid saying one word which could prevent such a
consummation, or produce any angry feeling ; and of this he
was assured, that Lord Grey and his late colleagues had the in.
terests of the country too much at heart to stand much on ceres
mony, if they saw a probability of their being again restored to
full confidence as the advisers of his Majesty. He would not
advert to the speculation of the Duke of Wellington with
respect to the Bill'. He would not look back at the past, he
would look only at the present, and availing himself of what
had fallen from the Member for Thetford, he would say, that
if his Majesty wished again to stand well with hie people,
he would not hesitate to receive his late Ministers to his Conn-
cils.—(Hear.) He trusted, therefore, there would be no
want of the means for the accomplishment of this most desira-
ble end, and he would suggest that the House should at once
adjourn, and leave matters as they stood now to their own
operation—(Hear.` Every post from the country was freighted
with complaints and remonstrances, and unpleasant statements.
He wished much that the next post would convey to the country
the tidings of an alteration of all that had been lately done, and
the sentiments of the 2so Members, which he hoped he spoke
with respect to this matter.—(Hear.) Then if he spoke their
sentiments, and if, as he hoped, the Member for Thetford
spoke the sentiments of his party, he thought it would be the
best way to adjourn the House, after the petition was disposed
of, and leave those more intimately connected with the ques-
tion to adopt such measures, under their conciliatory feelings,
as would put an end to all the evils and mishaps of their situa-
tion, and
they
t h, I
eena't e tnd oe
a.—voidHtehaer.)most frightful evils with
which
lord MORPETH rose to second and support this recorn.
t h
mendation. Ile was confident it would have the effect of ir-
resting the course of evils, and to restore that just confidence
in the Crown and the Government, which but a week ago they
so fully possessed. All who lent themselves to this great
work would deserve the blessings of their country.
Mr. LABOUCHEREwouIdadd his voice to the sarrerecom-
mendation. There was no reflecting man who would not hear
with joy of the glimmering of a hope of some termination to
that state of things which all viewed with apprehension. Public
Pi
men should, under ouch circumstances, bury all animosities, for
the purpose of enabling Earl Grey to carry that Bill which all
were now agreed should be carried, and which, if carried by
any other hands, would not, in all probability, be received as a
measure of peace and conciliation, which, by God's blessing.
it was hoped it would have been ; but, on the contrary, would •
lead to fresh animosities, and a restless desire of new changes,
which every ft lend of his country must contemplate with the
greatest dread. He trusted, therefore, that the independent
Members of that House would use their just influence ; and
that those who had been Ministers, and those who expected to
be Ministers, would, under the circumstances, abandon their
intentions, and save the country from the three perils which
threaten it ; first, that the Reform Bill would nut prove satis-
factory to the people; next, that the character of all public
men might escape the stain which would fall on it if those who
had opposed the Bill now carried it into a law ; and lastly, that
the character of the Sovereign might not any longer suffer in
the opinions of his people. The course now recommended

_ . .
would restore that Sovereign to their affbetions, which he be•
lieved none ever better deserved, and every true friend to the
Monarchy must desire to see that restoration take place as
speedily as possible.—(Hear. hear.)

Lord ALTHORP—In consequence of what had fallen from
the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, as well as from the Mem-
bers for Yorkshire and Middlesex (Morpeth and Hume),
wished to recall the attention of those Hon. Members and of
the House, who seemed to indulge in so many anticipations of
good, to the real state of the question. Those who indulged
in anticipations of the possibility of a compromise between par-
ties should recollect what is the real state of public affairs. At
the present moment, as they had heard that night from a Right
Hon. Gentleman, doubtless well informed on the subject, the
new Administration was completely formed in all its most essen-
tial points. The proposition, as far as he understood it, was,
that in consequence of the discussions which had taken place
in that House, it is to be expected that some arrangement
may take place, and that the House of Lords will withdraw
their opposition to the Bill. Now in his humble opinion there
was nothing more unlikly. Ile thought it was as unlikely 3
thing as any he had ever heard, that the Lords would with-
draw their opposition to the Bill 33 it now stood, and that Hon.
Gentlemen were indulging in unfounded expectations : he be-
lieved the Reform Bill would be carried, and he was satisfied it
would pas 4 the House of Lords ; but he did not believe that in
the present state of the House of Lords it was possible for the
late Administration to carry such a Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He
rose to say this because when he found Members so sanguine in
their calculations of an accommodation, he wished to recall
their attention to the real circumstances in which they were
placed, and to ask them, if they looked back to the events
which had already taken place, what probability there was that
the House of Lords would allow the late Administration to
carry the Reform Bill.
Lord S.VICDON regretted as much as any man the events
which had taken place, but he believed it would be found they
arose wholly in the House of Lords from a misapprehension of nature of the arguments, and a misunderstanding of the
intentions of the Opposition. He believed this on his honour
--(Hear, hear.) He believed, on his honour and conscience,
that the motives of the opponents of the Government had been
misunderstood—that having the Blli before them they were de-
sirous of making it as perfect as possible; and that they would
have sent it back to that House in such a shape as they would
have gladly accepted.--(Hear, hear.) He believed, too, that
this Bill would have been most satisfactory to the country.---
;Hear, hear.) He cordially concurred in the observations of
the Hon. Member with respect to the necessity of preserving
the character of public men free from taint; and he honed,
therefore, that a reconciliation might yet take place, and that
all the difficulties at present in the way might be successfully
overcome.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. DENISON was disposed to think the vote of the other
evening rather premature; but after what had already taken
place, and after what he had heard that night, he thought it
the fluty of every independent Member to concur in the re-
commendation that the contending parties should endeavour to
effect a reconciliation.

Mr. HUNT thtught it necessary to say a few words, although
he was not one of the 288 who voted for Ministers, and the
reason for that was, he did not wish to mix himself up with either
party. He agreed with those Hon. Members who asserted that •
the country was in such a state that there were very few per-
sons, either in that or in the other House of Parliament, who
could restore it to peace and good humour. Nor would he dis-
guise the fact, that the only persons who were at all likely to
succeed in tranquillizing the people, were the late Government.
Whether they really could do so or not he did not know ; but
this he knew, that whatever was done must be done promptly;
that it roust be done without intermission or delay—otherwise
lie would defy any man to say what might happen in the course
of eight-and-forty hours. lie had listened to the lion. Member
for Westminster, as lie had often done before, with great plea-
sure. That lion. Baronet had spoken very justly of the im-
propriety of the interference of a criminal Judge in political
intrigues. But he begged leive, for fair play was a jewel, to recall
to the Hon. Baronet and the Whigs a circumstance which oc-
curred some years ago. He remembered that when Mr. Fox and
Lord Grenville were in power, that Lord Ellenborough, a cri-
minal Judge, had a seat in the Cabinet ; so that the same man
might one day determine on the prosecution of any person, and
the next day sit in judgment oil him. He was certainly of ("Pi-
nion that at all times Judges should attend to the Bench and nct
meddle with polities. They had heard a great deal in the course
of the debate of political immorality and political inconsisteneY,
and he certainly admitted that if the Duke of Wellington
were to accept place, and then to carry .the Reform Bill.
it would show, on his part, a great deal of political Immo—