The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-26 00:00:00

we pay £958,000, while there is a sum of only £30,560 ex-
pended by them ; but then it must be remembered that,
being garrisons, it is of the utmost importance for our in-
terests that their defence should be adequately provided for.
On the West Indies we lay out £432,000, while the colonists
themselves pay not more than £6,000. In our colonies in
the East, Mauritius, and Hong Bong, our expenditure for
defensive purposes is £289,000, while they expend £91,000.
the Cape of Good Hopi costs us £635,000, while a sum of
£29,000 is all that the colonists contribute. The last-men-
tioned is, I must say, one of the strongest instances of that
disproportion to which I have referred. My right hon.
friend, in alluding to the Cape of Good Hope, spoke of the
German Legion which was sent out there, and of which he
says he has for a long time heard nothing. lam sorry to
have to state that I cannot say as much, for the War
Department has of late had repeated solicitations ad-
dressed to it in connexion with that body. I hold in my
hand a statement which I have submitted to the Trea-
sury, and which involves a claim for a large sum of money,
inasmuch as Sir G. Grey has kept the troops of the Ger-
man Legion in pay from the time of their arrival in
the Cape of Good Hope until the present day. A consi-
derable portion of those troops, it is true, volunteered to
go to India, but a large number of them was left behind,
and the expense of the maintenance of such a body is very
great. Without, however, going further into this point, I
shall state to the right hon. gentleman the course we have
taken. It is quite true that if there were only one party to
the bargain we by an Imperial Act could easily overrule the
intentions and feelings of the colonists by laying down
some law which would settle once for all the proportions
upon which this expenditure for military purposes should
be based. But this must be made matter of negotiation
between the several colonies. (Hear.) They have the
great advantage of distance and the great advantage of pas-
sive resistance, and, therefore, I do not feel very sanguine
of an early and effective inroad upon the system which now
exists. But it ought, nevertheless, not to be neglected, and
at the present moment there is a committee sitting upon the
subject, consisting of Mr. G. A, Harailten (Treasury), Mr.
Godly, who is well known to my hon. friend, and Mr. T.
F. Elliot (Colonial-office). The instructions which have been
given to those gentlemen are—to ascertain the gross ex-
penses of military defences for the five years 185347 inclu-
sive ; the proportion borne by colonial governments ; in
what colonies they are necessary for imperial or colonial
purposes or both ; to lay down the principle upon which the
expenses ought to be :apportioned ; and to state the best
mode of carrying that object into effect. As I have before
said, the government are most anxious to pursue this course.
The Duke of Newcastle enters warmly into the matter ; but
I repeat, that owing to the distance and the great power of
resistance, I am not sanguine ss to an early or uniform set-
tlement, although I am sure every exertion will be made to
place the matter upon a more satisfactory footing than at
present. (Hear.) With respect to the questions raised by
my hon. and gallant friend and by the hon. member for
Poole, let me say, with regard to the last, that the subject
of the defence in case of attack of the coast of England has
not escaped the notice of the Government. My predecessor
appointed committees of officers to make a minute exami-
nation of the whole coast, and those Engineer officers pre-
pared plans withgreat accuracy and great skill. We thought
it most important that those officers should be made tho-
roughly familiar with the topographical and physical na-
ture of the coast of Great Britain, but I am afraid it is
impossible to attempt to fortify as against an enemy
every portion of the whole coast. (Hear, hear.)
You might by attempting it fritter away an enormous sum
of money. (Hear, hear.) To place batteries and guns, with
no men to serve the guns, would place the country in a
worse position than if you did nothing at all. (Hear, hear.)
I only hope that the house and every individual member
will recollect that it is impossible the whole of the coast can
be put in a state of fortification, and that the attention of
the Government must, in the first instance at any rate, be
turned to the defence of those great ports and arsenals in
which we have all our materials of war, in which we have
the means of reproducing materials of war, and which, I
am sorry to say, are not in that forward state of defence at
the present moment which I could wish. (Hear, hear.) The
gallant officer proposes a resolution :--
" That, in the opinion of this house, taking into consider-
ation the relations existing between some of the great mili-
tary Powers of the Continent, it is advisable that a com-
mission be appointed, consisting of civilians and military
and naval officers, to inquire into and collect information
concerning the present condition of our national defences ;
to ascertain what improvements may bemade therein in or-
der to insure the utmost efficiency combined with eccnomy;
and to report thereon to her Majesty's Government."
I can offer the gallant officer the substance of his motion,
but not the motion itself. If you pass this resolution, in the
' first place there is an end of supply, and then, again, I
rather object to the words which point to the relations ex-
isting between some of the great military Powers of the
Continent. (Hear.) From the first moment when I came
into office I turned my attention to the subject, which is one
of considerable anxiety to the Government, and I mentioned
the decision during the discussion on the Estimates, that it
appeared that the system by which we were proceeding with
certain works was a very doubtful policy, as for any effectual
purpose of defence they ought to be finished as rapidly as
possible. (Hear, hear.) Either the gallant officer or the
hon. member said he thought the War Department had not
paid attention to the subject, and had not confidence in the
scientific advice which they had at their command. Now,
I find that these plans of defence of the arsenals and dock-
yards show an amount of care, minuteness, and skill which
does great credit to the Engineer officers, and it is
not that the Government have the slightes distrust in
the skill and ability of those officers that they have
come to the conclusion to appoint a mixed commission of ci-
vilians and naval and military officers—not too large a num-
ber, but a few whose names will carry weight with the
public—to whom we submit the plans which we have for
these fortifications, asking them to reconsider them, and
give us advice as to which should be first proceeded with,
and to suggest any alterations or extensions which they
may think necessary, but not, of couase, to start a fresh
theory, and render useless the expenditure of public money
already incurred. (Hear.) I believe that it is necessary,
and it is necessary for this reason—that if this house is to
be called upon to vote very large sums, or if the Govern-
ment think fit to apply very large sums voted by the house,
it is essential that public confidence should be obtained, and
that the country should be perfectly satisfied that the
works .on which the expenditure is to be made have been
perfectly well considered, and will be adequate as far as
possible for the purpose intended. (Hear, hear.) It is
therefore the intention of the Government to appoint a
commission such as that described by the gallant officer. I
trust that in a few days, when the names come out, they
i will be deemed guarantees to the public that the Govern
•
ment is honestly pledged to getting the best advice in their
power as to the plans upon which great works are to be
carried on at a more rapid pace than has hitherto been the
case, so that when completed the country may feel confi-
dence that our arsenals, which contain the means of repro-
duction of great maritime and military defences, are in such
a state that we need 'be under no alarm of a successful
circumstances whatever.
Mr. HORSMAN, Lord LOVAINE, and Mr. HALIBURTON
(adtthaeeckrs b g any enemy under any
rose together, but upon the call of " new member," the two
first-named members yielded precedence.
Mr. HALIBURTON said he had to thank the Secretary
for War for the manner in which he had treated the motion
of the hon. gentleman below him. He was not aware when
he read the notice what was the particular purport of the
motion, on aceount of the manner in which it was worded,
and he confessed Cita he listened to the observations of the
hon. gentleman with a great deal of anxiety as to whether
he understood it rightly, and whether the hon. gentleman
would be misunderstood on the other side of the water.
The hon. gentleman, as far as he could gather from his
observations, appeared to question the expediency of having
troops in British North America. He hoped he might be
permitted to make a few remarks upon that subject, because
the whole of his life had been spent there. (Cheers.) It
was said that the colonists ought to defend themselves. Be
it so. It was not the first time they had done it, and they
were able to do it again. (Cheers.) But at the same time
there was a reciprocal duty as well as a mutual interest—
on the one part loyal and obedient attachment to this
country, and on the other protection. (Hear, hear.) It
was said that the militia ought to be organiseti. He was
proud to say that it had been organised, and in the war of
1812 with the United States, with very trifling assistance
from this country, for her troops were wanted elsewhere,
the militia of Canada turned out, and the whole force of
the United States was not sufficient to make any impression
upon them. (Cheers.) Again, when Lord Seaton by that
very extraordinary manner in which he governed
Canada produced rebellion—not in Nova Scotia, for
in Nova Scotia there never was rebellion, but in
other parts—it was the native troops, underthe com-
mand of Sir A. MSNab and Sir F. Bond Head, who drove
out the Yankee sympathisers and the Trench rebels.
(Cheers.) The same thing could be done again, but the very
knowledge that England would protect the country in time
of need was a protection of itself. If it were announced
that the troops would be withdrawn, and the colonies,
must protect themselves, it would lead to trouble with
their neighbours ; while the very knowledge that a great
country like England, with a large army and a powerful
fleet, was willing to take them under its wing, was a protec-
tion against the most powerful neighbour they had to fear, if
fear were not a word inapplicable to the case. (Hear, hear.)
If the troops were withdrawn, what did they want with the
colonies ? Let them give the colonies under those circum-
stances their independence. They did not ask or
want it, and would receive it with regret, but the
colonists were men of English extraction, and would
say, "If you aro come to the condition of Rome, and you
must gather your legions from the extremities of your em-
pire, give us our independence and leave us, and we will
say God speed and protect you as in the olden time." But
when hon. members talked of the militia and governing the
colonies, England did not govern, but misgoverned them;
England did not manage their affairs, but mismanaged them.
What had occurred with regard to the militia within the
last three or four years ? Why, that a boy of 15 or 16 years
of age, at Eton or one of the public schools, was made a
colonel of the militia of Nova Scotia. (Hear.) Was the ap-
pointment of a boy who was learning his Latin and Greek
grammar in this country, over the heads of old men in the
colony, because it would give the boy rank hereafter, likely
to encourage the militia to turn out ? In his opinion it was
turning the whole Thing into ridicule. (Hear.) These were
the blessings they enjoyed and the encouragement they re-
ceived. What had the colonies to do with an European
war? Their ships were plundered on the high seas, their
sailors were impressed in their towns, and the enemy's
ships were in all their coves and creeks, watching for their
homeward-bound ships. The quarrel was not one of theirs.
When this country undertook to govern the colonies, and
when it made laws suitable for itself, well and good ; but
Parliament ought, at least, to ask the colonies whether the
same laws were suited to their condition. (Hear.) When
they gave to America the coasting trade of this country,
what right had they to give her 'also the coasting trade of
the colonies—what right had they co extend under the term
"coasting trade," the trade from Boston, round South Ame-
rica, to California ? (Hear.) Yet that was one of their acts,
and it was one that had almost ruined the shipping of the
North American colonies. (Cheers.) Look at the extent
and feeling. of those colonies. They contained 4,000,000 in-
telligent, loyal, and'patriotic men. They made an offer of
two regiments for the Crimea, and one of their regiments
was now in this country. The sympathies of the colonies
were still further evinced in the Legislative grants and
subscriptions for the Patriotic Fund and the Indian Mutiny
Fund, of the distribution of which latter fund he was one of
the managers. He did not recollect all the figures, but from
the Australian colonies alone £70,000 werereceived in sub-
scriptions and grants. (Hear, hear.) If Great Britain were
to withdraw her legions, let the colonies have fair notice.
He was glad that the right hon. gentleman had given so
proper an answer to the question put to him, and that his
answer would go out to the colonies. If this country were
to withdraw her troops, let there be an understandins, how
and when they were to be withdrawn. He had had
the satisfaction of bringing before the late Secretary of
the Colonies a plan by which it would not :be
necessary to keep a single soldier in Canada. If that
chain of railways which ran from Halifax to New Bruns-
wick were completed by the construction of a small portion
to Quebec, in 12 days, and at any :season of the year, the
Government of this country could send as many troops as

they liked to Canada, and they could not keep a single sol-
dier in that country. He was glad the discussion had taken
this turn, and he was gratified that the Secretary for War
had answered the question which had been put to him in so
conciliatory and statesmanlike a manner. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. HORSMAN had heard with great satisfaction that
the Secretary of State for War assented to some extent to
his hon. and gallant friend's proposal for a commission.
He wished to suggest that the official element should be
introduced in this commission as sparingly as possible, if
even it were not excluded altogether; since one of its most
important functions would be to review the proceedings
that had already taken place under official authority. It
would also be desirable to secure an early report, and a limit
ought, he thought, to be put to the period at which the
first report should be made. He did not see why the first
report, not the final report, but embodying the main re-
commendations of the commission—should not be made
within three months. He agiteed with the right hon. gen-
tleman that it was out of the question to attempt to fortify
our coasts so as to prevent an enemy from landing. (Hear,
hear.) The only fortifications required we're those that
were necessary for the protection of our ships and arsenals.
To build batteries along the coast for the enemy to land
under was absurd. There was no doubt an enemy pos-
sessed greater facilities for landing and for the transport
and embarkation of troops than he ever had before, and
there were many points along the coast On which an enemy
would have no great difficulty in landing. He agreed with
General Shaw Kennedy that we should not be safe
we had such an internal force upon our own soil as 'would
defeat and destroy any enemy that might pin P landing.
(Hear.) If that were so, the commission an';at to be ap-
pointed ought to recommend what amount of internal land
force we ought always to maintain—how many troops of
the Line, low many Militia and how many volunteers we racjoired so Ps to be always ha a state of perfect security. For a nation containing 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 male adults to be in a perpetual panic of an invasion of 100,000 or
200,000 men was a scandal and a burlesque. (Hear.) We
ought always to be in such a condition that any army that
was likely to obtain a landing would be certain to be de-
feated awl destroyed. The commission might make a
valuable report, which would facilitate the proceedings of
the Government in that house, and carry more weight than
any statements on mere departmental authority that might
be made in Committee of Supply. (Cheers.)
Mr. C. FORTESCUE hoped that the return alluded to
by the right hon, gentleman, which was rather a complicated
one, would be laid on the table on Friday. The noble duke
at the head of the Colonial-office would, he was confident,
give his best consideration to the views expressed by the
right hon. gentleman. opposite; but there was another side
to the question, as they had heard from the distinguished
colonist whom they were all glad to see in the house, and
who was a brilliant representative of the true British spirit
of the colonial subjects of this country. (Hear, hear.) He
thought that his right hon. friend (Mr. S. Herbert) had
struck a fair balance between imperial views and the colo-
nial side of the question, which had been so candidly and
temperately stated by the hon. and learned gentleman. It
must be remembered that the Home Government had to
deal with a great number of communities scattered all over
the world, differing in age, in means, resources, in the
liability to attack, and the necessity for defence, and it was,
therefore, impossible to adopt one uniform system in deal-
ing with them all. In many of these cases, too, the Home
Government had not to deal with colonies subject to their
abdolute authority, but had to negotiate with Governments
possessing representative institutions and capable of acting
in a great degree independently of the Home Government.
The only mode in which the Imperial Government could
in some cases act was by refusing to send British troops to
particular colonies, or by saying they would withdraw the
troops now there nless the colony paid for their mainte-
nance. That, however, was no light responsibility for a
British Minister to assume.
Lord ELCHO said he was glad to hear the Government
intended to appoint a commission of the kind indicated by
his right hon. friend the Secretary for War ; but some doubt
appeared to exist in the house as to the extent of the
powers :to bo conferred upon it. He was in hopes that the
commission contemplated in the motion of his hon. and gal-
lant friend (Sir De L. Evans) had for its object an inquiry
into the whole subject of the national defences—to deter-
mine the number of men, both of the regular army and the
militia, which it was essential we should have in this coun-
try as a permanent force, available at all times ; what was
the number of ships and sailors it was necessary to maintain
as a permanent available naval force ; and what fortifica-
tions were indispensably requisite for the defence of ,the
kingdom. He thought it desirable that we should not be
any longer liable, as we were now, to a constantly recurring
state oepanic, which was fast becoming chronic, and which
was unworthy a great nation. (Hear.) We ought, on the
contrary, to be in a position which would render us inde-
pendent alike of the friendship or the enmity of all or any of
the potentates of Europe. (Hear.) That object he conceived
would be better attained by the commission proposed by his
hon. and gallant friend than that contemplated by the Go-
vernment.
Lord H. VANE contended that it was not in the power of
any commission to lay down what should be the exact num-
ber of the troops, artillery, and ships requisite for the proper
defence of the country, inasmuch as the defensive force
ought always to be proportioned to the force of other coun-
tries from time to time, and have regard to the varying state
of European politics. He hoped the commission proposed
by the Government would be so constituted as to carry
weight in the country as well among military men as civi-
lians, and that they would not incur expenditure of a kind
aelculated rather to retard the work of national defence than
to carry it out on a satisfactory footing.
Sir DE L. EVANS reminded the house that the word
"fortification" did not occur in his motion, and contended
that it was totally absurd to think of fortifying the whole of
our coasts.
Lord PALMERSTON said, undoubtedly the object for
which the commission announced by his right hon. friend
(Mr. S. Herbert) would be appointed was one of great im-
portance, but he thought there would be no advantage in
extending the range of the inquiry so as to embrace a vast
variety of other subjects. He should hope his hon. and
gallant friend (Sir De Lacy EVans) would be satisfied by
the statement a his right hon. Mend the Secretary of State
for War, and would not press his motion to a division, inas-
much as it seemed the object his hon. and gallant friend
had in view would be accomplished by the course proposed
by the Government. With regard to the proposal of his
lion. friend the member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman)—namely,
that the commission should be instructed to take a larger
range of inquiry, and consider what amount of naval and
military force was necessary for the defence of the country
—he (Lord Palmerston) would submit that that was an in-
vestigation of a totally different nature from that contem-
plated by his right hon. "friend the Secretary for War. The
object of his right hon. friend's commission would be to as-
certain what permanent works were essential or necessary
for the defence of our different dockyards and arsenals.
That once ascertained, and the necessary works themselves
constructed, those works would remain as part of the per-
manent defences of the country, and would not vary from
year to year. But the inquiry suggested as to what should
be the amount of our naval and military force was a matter
the determination of which must vary from year to year,
according to the changing circumstances of this country and
foreign. countries. He could, however assure his hon.
friend the member for Stroud that the subject mooted by him
had already occupied, and would continue to occupy, the
attention of the Government ; and he trusted his hon. friend
would be content with that assurance.
Mr. AYRTON thought the commission proposed by the
Government would not in the least degree meet the view
contemplated by the motion of his hon. and gallant friend
(Sir De Lacy Evans). From its very nature it would deal
only with a small part of the great question which his hon.
and gallant friend desired to have submitted to the house.
It involved only engineering investigations connected with
our inland defences, for which our engineers ought to be
qualified. We had been supporting a large body of en-
gineers at a great cost for many years, and now, when it
was proposed that something should be done for which
they ought to be thoroughly qualified, a commission was to
be appointed to supersede them in the discharge of their
functions. (Hear.) The gallant general proposed a com-
mission of inquiry into our whole system, in order to ascer-
tain what should be the condition of our ordinary defences
in time of peace, so that the people might be able to rest
satisfied that whatever should happen they would be pro-
tected from aggression—(hear, hear)--to ascertain, in short,
what should be the minimum force maintained in time of
peace, and what the nature of that force should be. (Hear,
hear.) Hitherto the array and navy had always been
treated as separate and distinct from each other; but they
were in fact so closely connected that tho question of the
minimum of the one necessarily affected the other. They
should therefore be treated as one in regard to the main ob-
jects for which they were maintained. (Hear, hear.) Most
important questions were every day raised as to the strength
of our navy, the likelihood of our obtaining a sufficient
supply of men from the commercial marine in case of war
(which could not, he thought, be attempted without de-
ranging commerce to such an extent as to render it imprac-
ticable)'and the necessity of having in time of peace a con-
stant reserve of able-bodied seamen. (Hear.) These were
questions that ought to be investigated by a commission
like this. In the same way there were many questions con-
nected with the army that called for inquiry, and these
should also be intrusted to the consideration of this com-
mission. What was the use of an army in this country if
it was not strong enough to repel invasion, or if, when inva-
sion was threatened, it could not be raised to such a strength
as to render it really effective. (Hear.) That was a question
which everybody asked. There should be an inquiry,
therefore, 'as to the minimum force that ought to be main-
tained, and into the best means of raising it to a sufficient
numerical strength to repel invasion; for, unless they- had
always at hand such a reserve as would enable them to keep
their army at its full strength, supposing the necessity to
arise for its being brought into active service, it appeared to
him to be perfectly useless. (Hear, hear.) The experience
of the great Napoleon showed how rapidly an army would
be used up when reserves were not to be had. (Hear.) It
was a melancholy thing, after voting so many millions year
by year to maintain the army and navy, to be told so often
that there was neither an army nor a navy fit for the pur-
poses for which they were intended. (Elear, hear.) If the
expenditure of the country had been conducted on a more
wholesome system this state of things could not have ex-
isted ; but, looking at the circumstances in which we were
pliteed, he thought the investigations of the commissioners
should take a wider range than was proposed by the Go-
vernment. (Hear, hear.)
[lt has lately been the practice to delay the lighting of
the house se long as to cause some inconvenience to the
reporters in the gallery. During the delivery of Mr.
Ayrton's speech the darkness became so great as to render
note-taking a matter of considerable difficulty. This incon-
venience, no doubt, arises from inadvertence on the part of
those charged with the lighting department, which a hint
will be sufficient to remedy.]
Mr. HORSMAN was understood to explain that he did
not propose fixing our defensive forces at a rate which
should not vary from year to year, but that there should be
a minimum below which they should never be brought.
GREENWICH HOSPITAL.
Sir C NAPIER rose to call attention to the manage.
•
meat of Greenwich Hospital ; his object was to show that
a different system of treatment was observed towards the
sailors to that which was practised with reference° the
officers. Any pensions received by the officers for wounds
were retained, whilst those of the men were given up from
the moment they entered the hospital. From a return which
he held in his hand, it appeared that te officers received
£25.593 in salaries, while the charge for the men was
£33,163, the latter being obliged to give up pay and pension
and to accept a shilling a week in addition to their board,
lodging, and clothing in the hospital. The salary of the
governor was £2,759, lieutenant governor £1;345, senior
captain £740, and so on, all handsome incomes, -whilst
the poor sailors were kept on the barest pittance. Another
complaint he had to make was, that neither the go-
vernor nor lieutenant-governor had any power, all
authority being confided to three commissioners, who
were retained at handsome salaries out of the funds of the
hospital. Havingrecited one or two minor causes of complaint
the gallant admiral concluded by moving that a humble
address be presented to her Majesty for a commission to in-
quire into the management of Greenwich Hospital.
The SPEAKER informed the hon. and gallant member

that his motien could not be put, there being one amend-
ment already before the chair. The amendment alluded to
was put and negatived.
Sir C. NAPIER asked if he could then put his motion ?
The SPEAKER answered in the negative and the mo-
tion fell to the ground.

SUPPLY.
The house went into committee of supply, and the dis-
cussion on the vote for Irish education
-was resumed.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the vote for the agricul-
tural schools in Ireland, which he contended should be sup-
ported by the landlords of that country. The agricultural
school at Glasnevin was, he understood, a complete job, and
in others, charges were set down which he thought wholly
beyond the scope of such institutions. He moved that the
vote be reduced by the sum of L 22,689.
Mr. MONSELL remarked that the hon. member who so
severely criticised this vote had not made any objection to
the £826,000 which had been passed for England. It must
be admitted that the arts referred to were most useful for the
children to learn, and unless it could be shown that the in-
struction was not well given no case had been shown for re-
ducing the vote.
Mr. CARDWELL—His hon. friend said that he did not
object to theteacking in the parish and local schools. (Hear,
hear.) The local agricultural schools were necessary to in-
struct the people in useful industrial arts, and to make
those sckools efficient, the model agricultuaal school, near
Dub Pat, was necessary, for the purpose of providing proper
ttrAchers. The teaching of the female population in indus-
trial habits, useful in after life, was equally important, and
Government would have neglected their duty, when public
money was voted for the purpose of educating the people in
Ireland, if they had not provided both for the training of
competent teachers in the arts of agriculture and for instruct-
ing the female part of the pdpulation in needlework and
other industrial arts which pertain to female instruction.
The charge for the higher branches of agricultural science
would be discontinued in future yeirs, and he trusted there-
fore that no objection would be pi•essed against the vote.
Mr. HADFIELD asked why they should pay the public
money for teaching agriculture in Ireland ? Did the public
pay for teaching cutlery in Sheffield, or cotton spimung in
Manchester? for there was no more justice in the one than
the other. It was against all correct principles to grant
public money for teaching the population any science or art,
and he should divide with Mr. Williams. No ground could
be advanced for such a practice now, as there might have
been 20 years ago, in consequence of the low state of Agri-
culture in Ireland. The idea of granting public money for
teaching music or needlework was really too absurd.
Mr. BLACKBURN also thought it a mistake to make
public grants for teaching trades.
Mr. HENNESSY supported the vote.
Mr. WILLIAMS was glad to understand that the items
he objected to were in course of diminution. He was in no
way opposed to a grant for education in Ireland, but what he
objected to was the application of this £22,000. He would say
the proper course was to leave the schools in Ireland to con-
tribute for those things if they were needed. He would not
divide.
Mr. WHITESIDE wished to confirm a statement made
in the morning as to the necessity of increasing the payment
of schoolmasters in Ireland. He suggested that the number
of the schoolmasters of the national board should be dimi-
nished, and their pay increased. He adyocated the church
education system as against the national, and held that
nineteen-twentieths of the whole Protestant population of
Ireland were in favour of the reading of the Scriptures in
schools. That being the case, on what conceivable system
was it that they were to be taxed for education, while no
regard was paid to their wishes ? The Presbyterian body had
said distinctly that they would not take the vote on the con-
dition of not reading the Scriptures in the schools. The
principle, therefore, of the board was gone. If they took
care to provide proper payment for the schoolmasters, and
thus obtained properly qualified moral and religious teachers,
there would be no such crimes committed as a noble lord had
referred to in an earlier part of the day as that in which
certain schoolmasters had been implicated. When it was
considered what was the state of the population of Ireland,
some change ought to be made, as much in the interest of
the Roman Catholics as of the Protestants. As far as the
Church wets concerned, the opinion of its members was that
education based on the Scriptures could not be changed,
and he therefore urged that some change should be made in
the system which would be more in accordance with the
feelings and opinions of all classes in Ireland.
Mr. M'CANN agreed with the right hon. member for
Tiverton, who gave the fairest description of the national
system of education in Ireland, whilst it contributed to do
more good in that country than anything which the British
Parliament had ever done for it.
Mr. A. MILLS said he felt it was of importance that the
salaries of the national schoolmasters should be raised,
which would tend to raise the status of the schools in the
south, which were very far below the proper standard.
The amendment was withdrawn, and the vote agreed to.
The next vote was £650 for the Commissioners of Edu-
cation in Ireland.
£3,650 for the University of London was agreed to.
The next vote, £7,650 for Universities in Scotland, was
also agreed to.
As was £2,297 for the Queen's University in Ireland.
On the next vote, £2,800, to defray certain expenses of
the Queen's colleges in Ireland.
Mr. HENNESSY wished it to be explained why the sum
of £4,800, which was the whole amount of the vote, had
been continued at the same amount since 1854, which was
to supply the deficiency of fees by students.
Mr CARDWELL said that there was a complete account
given of every item of the vote in the report of the commis.
sioners. The circumstance of the students not being so
numerous as was expected, and the reduction of the amount
of fees, was the cause of the vote.
Vote agreed to.
The next vote, £5OO for the Royal Irish Academy, was
agreed to.
On the vote of £1,500 for theological professors at Belfast
and Belfast Academical Institution,
Mr. BAXTER said he was always ashamed of this vote.
He could not see why a large and wealthy denomination
should not pay its own professors. This was a cognate vote
to that of Maynooth, and he begged to point out to the hon.
member for Warwickshire that if they succeeded iu getting
rid of this vote, it would be clearing the way for abolishing
the grant to Maynooth. He moved the reduction of the
vote by £450, the retired allowances of professors of the
Belfast Academical Institution.
Mr. WILLIAMS briefly expressed his objections to the
vote.
After a few words of explanation from Mr. CARDWELL as
to the amount of the salaries of the theological professors
at Belfast included in this vote, being six at £250 each,
Mr. HADFIELD remarked that the Presbyterians of
Ireland were the only non-conformist body in the United
Kingdom who received money out of the taxes of the coun-
try, and the result was that there were no dissenters who
behaved so stingily to their own ministers. He thought it
would really be doing them a service to deprive them of
the grant.
Mr. WHITESIDE defended the grant. He said the
Presbyterians of Ireland belonged to the Established Church
of Scotland, and ought not to be described as dissenters. It
would be impolitic, whilst voting £30,000 a-year for May-
nooth, to take this small sum away from a body to whom
the country was indebted for Christian instruction.
Mr. ARNOTT bore testimony to the deserving character
and services of the Presbyterian clergy of Ulster, whose
incomes were by no means too large.
Mr. BLACK objected to the vote, not on account of its
amount, but because he regarded it as vicious in principle.
The house then divided—
For the vote
Against it
£47,425, to complete the sum of the estimate for the esta-
blishment of the British Museum.
Mr. WALPOLE said there was a reduction in this vote
as compared with that of last year, amounting to £1,875.
It was gratifying to add that there was a large increase in
the number of students, and of the number of books of which
they made use. The number of books returned to the shelves
in the library during the year had been 177,290; in the
royal library, 12,428 ; in the Grenville library, 687 ; in the
closets, 122,102; in the reading-room, 564,000; total,
8,76,000, which was at the rate of 3,000 books per diem.
Last year the number was 576,000. During the year two
vacant trusteeships had been filled up, aid he had no doubt
that the appointments would give the greatest satisfaction.
That in the nomination of the crown had been filled by
Dr. Cureton, and that by the trustees by Mr. Grote.
Mr. GREGORY said it would be in the recollection of
many hon. gentlemen that in the last Parliament he had
moved for a committee to inquire into the state of the Mu-
seum. He had shown on that occasion that the Museum
was in a state of hopeless confusion; tnat valuable collec-
tions were wholly hidden from the public, and that great
portions of other collections were in danger of being de-
stroyed by damp and neglect. Next session he intended to
bring forward the subject, unless indeed he should find the
necessity of his doing so removed. He hoped the Govern-
ment in the recess would seriously consider whether the
natural history collection should not be removed from the
Museum; a step in favour of which he believed there was
a growing conviction in the public mind. If they decided
,on that the next question would be, whither ? He warned
the Government that if they attempted to remove it to
Kensington they would encounter an opposition as
serious and as successful as that which was raised against
the removal of the National Gallery. There could be
no doubt that Regent's-park would be a far preferable
locality; but there were insuperable difficulties in the way
of erecting suitable buildings in the park. There was only
one other site that need be discussed, and that was the
ground adjoining the present one. He should like to see a
great division between what might for shortness be called
the works of nature and the works of man. He would re-
commend a north front devoted to natural history and
kindred subjects, leaving the present building to works of
literature and art. He thought that there ought to be a
complete division between the two branches, for it was
utterly impossible that any one mind should take in the
details of an establishment so varied and so bewildering in
• the multiplicity of its details. He trusted, too, that what-
ever plan was adopted for the re-arrangement of the Mu-
seum, some attention would be paid to the suggestions of
the heads of the departments. He hoped that they should
hear no more of Mr. Smirke making plans which were in
direct opposition to the wishes of Professor Owen and Mr.
Hawkins. He trusted, in short, that the Museum, in its
arrangements, would be made a credit to the nation. There
was another subject which he must, press upon the atten-
tion of the house—namely, the necessity of making the
Museum a place of instruction instead of a place of exhi-
bition. No part of his remarks at the early part of the year
had been so favourably received by the house and the press;
and he felt sure that he could carry against any government
a resolution affirming the principle for which he was contend-
ing. He had no desire to assume a point of hostility to the
government, but so important did he regard the subject that
he should feel bound to persevere. (Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that the assistants were the worst paid and the worst
used in the public service. (Cheers.) Those gentlemen
required a special education, and that of a very high cha-
racter. Yet the utmost at which they could ever aspye was
a salary of £3OO per annum, except one fortunate indivi-
dual, who might perhaps become the head of a department.
He believed there was a division amongst the trustees on
this subject, and that the noble lord (Russell) was in favour
of a more generous policy towards the assistants. The
assistants in the Museum, had only twenty-four days' va-
cation during the year, whereas in their other public estab-
lishments the officers had eight weeks. By working men
to death they did not get better or cheaper work from them.
If they had more time many of these gentlemen might
visit foreign Museums, and the country would to some ex-
tent benefit by the larger experience they acquired. It was
because these gentlemen were men of studious and retired
habits, and did not mix themselves up in politics that they
were thus treated. He hoped the Government would take
the matter up and deal with it in a satisfactory manner,
Mr. MILNES said he felt bound to add his testimony to
the observations of his hon. friend. He knew the gen-
tlemen to whom his hon. friend alluded, and a more deserv-
ing class of persons could not be found. It was not for the
honour of the country
.that they should be left in the state
of honourable poverty in
thewhichon
instthiteuytiwerwe
ansownopwlaced. believed the working of
satisfac-
tory. The reading -room was an object of admiration, not
only in this, but in ether countries. He would suggest,
as an improvement, that small reading-rooms should be at-
tached to the general one in which men of literary genius
who were engaged in works of importance should be allowed

to conduct their inquiries. (Hear, hear.) He thought
that the provincial libraries could be very usefully assisted
from the treasures which were contained in the British
Museum.
Mr. TURNER considered the assistants of the Museum
to be very ill-used. They were men of high education,
yet they were not able to live like gentlemen or give edu-
cation to their children. He knew one who was obliged to
give up what might be called his title of honour as a mem-
ber of a learned society, because he had not the means of
paying the small sum which would entitle him to remain
a member. When the inspectors of military boots and
clothes were paid £3OO a-year, he thought it a disgrace
that these gentlemen in the Museum should be so ill paid.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SCULLY observed that there were many objections
made to small votes for Irish purposes, but he had not heard
objections made to similar items in the votes for educational
purposes in this country.
Mr. DANBY SEYMO UR said he had the acquaintance
and the friendship of some of the asisstants in the Museum,
and he could bear his testimony to what had been said of
them. It was only surprising that the trustees, who were
some of the moat eminent men in the country should allow
this state of things to continue so long. If the national
collection was broken up, and a portion of it carried to Ken-
sington, it would be unfair to the people at the other side of
London. The people of Victoria-park were just as well
entitled to a collection of their own as the people of Ken-
sington. The design of the British Museum by Mr. Smirk°
was a bad one, and the money which was spent in its
decoration, £530,000, was a pure job.
Mr. TITE observed that it was Sir R. Smirke who de-
signed-the Museum, and it was his brother Mr. Smirke, who
carried out the decorations. He thought the hon. gentle-
man was mistaken as to the expense of the decorations. He
would suggest the propriety of finding room in the Museum
for the exhibition of the interesting and curious monuments
which had been brought from Halicarnassus, and which
were now placed where they could not be viewed.
Sir J. SHELLEY wished to ask the right hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Walpole) whether arrangements could not be made
for keeping open the Museum to a later hour on Saturday
than the other days of the week, so as to enable the working
classes to spend their Saturdry half-holiday there.
Mr. WALPOLE said with regard to the separation of the
collections in the Museum, he was convinced no committee
of the house would be able to deal with that subject in the
proper way. It would require the hand and authority of
the executive government to deal with it as it ought to be
deal with. He hoped the Government, therefore, would
consider it during the recess. The second point to which the
hon. gentleman referred was the arrangement, but he did not
think he need answer his observations after the testimony
which had been given by the hon. member for Pontefract.
He might add, however, that within'the last ten days one of
the most scientific men in Europe came to see this collection,
and he was not only delighted with the collectionitself, but
with the manner in which it was arranged . The third point
was that lectures ought to be delivered. That was a most
difficult question. Individually, he thought that these
collections might be made the most of without instruction,
but if they were to give lectures how was the lecturer to give
them ? and how, was he to be paid ? and was the Museum
after all the proper place in which to deliver tl- 31311 ? Then
it should be remembered that the Museum was a collection
and not a school for instruction. The next point was the
remuneration given to the assistants, which the hon. mem-
ber for Pontefract had put with that benevolence for which
he, was so famous. Now he (Mr. Walpole) did not mean to
say that any one of these gentlemen was paid according to
his attainments; but who was. (Laughter.) Talk of at-
tainments, why if Professor Owen were paid according to
his attainments, he would be paid a higher salary than the
first Minister of the Crown. He did not wish to prevent
the Government raising these salaries, but only two years
ago this matter was fully gone into by officers appointed by
the Treasury. The salaries in many instances were raised,
and if the officers wanted them raised higher, let the
matter be considered again, but if hon. members agreed to
this, he hoped they would not come down to the house and
complain of the increase of the civil estimates year by year.
The hon. 'member for Pontefract suggested that several
small: rooms should be set aside- for eminent literary
men when they wished to consult books, but had he con-
sidered the full extent of the proposition, and the amount
of jealousy which such a course would create ? His (Mr.
Walpole's) belief was that in the reading-room they had
provided as much accommodation as they could in a public,
institution, and if there was an exceptional case, such as the
hon. member mentioned, let application be made to the
trustees, and he was sure they would meet it. With re-
ference to the excavations that had been alluded to, they
were certainly in a 'disreputable state ; but that opened the
whole question of extending the building. His opinion was
that they must extend it northwards till they took in the
whole length of the street—nay, more, till it included the
whole of the area, and there should be a north entrance.
As to extending the hours for the working classes, it was a
mistake to suppose that they used the Museum much on, a
Saturday. Monday was their great day, and he very much
doubted whether opening the Museum on a Saturday even-
ing would be a great boon to them. That involved the
question of light and fires, and he doubted whether the
good to be derived from this additional opening would be
equivalent to the danger and the expense. He was only
a junior trustee, but he must say he never saw an institu-
tion in which greater anxiety was manifested to give accom-
modation to the public in every possible way.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole), speaking as an indi-
vidual, had proposed that the houses in the neighbourhood
should be purchased, that the Museum might be enlarged.
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) spoke as an individual
also, and he looked upon the plan with great alarm, as in-
volving a great expenditure. The subject of increased
accommodation was one which called for immediate atten-
tion, and it would be the duty of the Government, as soon
as circumstances would permit, to bring the question into a
state of ripeness for decision ; but, at the same time, he felt
more than ordinarily the necessity of caution, on account
of the extraordinary demand on the public purse, and on
that subject he spoke less freely than he might
do under
more favourable circumstances. Another point was as to
the salaries and the vacations enjoyed, or rather suffered ;
for according to the hon. member (Mr. Gregory) the
officers were in a state of suffering. He thought that it the
officers conceived they had reason to complain, they ought
to have carried their complaint first to the trustees, and if they did not get justice from them, to the Treasury, and
only as a last resort have appealed to that house. It should
be remembered that these were agreeable offices in them-
selves, which was an important item in considering the
salaries.

The vote was then agreed to.
The sum of £12,270 for new buildings at the British
Museum was also agreed to.
On the next vote, £15,985 for the National Gallery being
put,
Mr. DA NBY SEYMOUR moved that the chairman re-
port progress.
The CHAIRMAN put the question and declared the
noes had it, but as
Mr. SEYMOUR called for a division,
Lord PALMERSTON said he would not ask the house
to take a vote which might create disoussion at that time of
night. (DP was then 12 o'clock.)
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and
The house resumed.
The Boundaries (Ireland) Bill passed through com-
mittee.
The Westminster New Bridge Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The Consolidated Fund (X 7,000,000) Bill was read 'a
third time and passed.
The Queen's Remembrance; &c., Bill was read a second
time.

The Police (Counties and Boroughs) Law Amendmint
Bill was read a second time.
The Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill was committed
pro forma.

The Vexatious Indictments Bill was read a second time.
The Fireworks Act Amendment Bill was read a second
time.

The Dwellings for Labouring Classes (Ireland) Bill
passed through committee.
The Adulteration of Food, &c., Prevention Bill passed
through committee pro forma.
LOCOMOTIVE BILL.
The house resolved itself into committee on this bill.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said no doubt it was desirable that
locomotive engines should be perinitted to travel along
turnpike roads, provided they could do so with safety; but -
so far as he was at present advised, he thought the permis-
sion might be attended with danger and therefore suggested
the postponement of the bill until further evidence could be • adduced on the subject.
Mr. RIDLEY and Mr. GARNETT defended the bill.
Mr. HEADLAM thought the evidence which had been
adduced was decidedlyfavourable to the bill, but agreed with
the Home Secretary in recommending the postponement of
the measure to a future day.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and
Mr. GARNETT gave notice of his intention to move
that the evidence given before the committee be printed.
PAWNBROKERS' BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
MILITIA BALLOT SUSPENSION,
Mr. S. HER BERT obtained leave to bring in a bill to
suspend the making of lists and the ballots of the United
Kingdom. _

- MILITARY S S.
Mr. S. HERBERT obtained leave toBANK bring in a bill to
amend and consolidate the laws relating to military savings
banks.

DISEMBODIED MILITIA.
Mr. S. HERBERT moved that the following members
constitute a select committee to prepare estimates of the
charge of the disembodied militia of Great Britain and Ire-
land for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1860 :
Mr. Sidney Herbert, General Peel, the Judge Advocate,
Sir G. Lewis, Mr. Ellice, Sir J. Ramsden, Mr. Geo. Clive,
Colonel Kingscote, Colonel Wilson Patten, Colonel Smyth,
Colonel Pinney, Colonel North, and all colohels of militia;
five to be the quorum.
Mr. VINCENT SCULLY complained that Irish mem-
bers were excluded from this as well as from most other
committees. There was not a single Irishman in the Cabi-
net, and it seemed therefore to be forgotten that there was
an Irish member in the house. A committee was also about
to be appointed to inquire into the state of the Thames ;
but, as usual, it was to comprise no Irishmen, probably be-
cause it was supposed that Irish members had not as sensi-
tive olfactories as their English brethren. (A laugh.) He
gave notice that he should bring this subject forward early
next session and divide the house upon it.
Mr. S. HERBERT thought the assertion of the exclu-
sion of Irishmen rather unjust. The head of the Cabinet
was an Irishman, and there were several Irishmen on this
committee—among whom he might mention Mr. Sidney
Herbert (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. V. SCULLY had never heard the fact just
ho was glad to salute the noble lord (Palmerston )andated;
the
nand;
Secretary
at' ar as brother Irishmen.
The committee was then appointed.(Laughter.)
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES.
Sir G. LEWIS moved for leave to bring in a bill to place
Roman Catholic charities on the same footing as other
charities. At the present time charities for Roman Catholics
were void as against the statute of charitable uses. He now
proposed to alter this, making the charities, however, Sub-
ject to the Statute of Mortmain .
Mr. KINNAIRD rejoiced that the Government had at
length dealt with this subject. Ample time ought however
to be given for the house to consider its provisions.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
MANUFACTURES (IRELAND).
Mr. CARDWELL obtained leave to bring in a bill on
this subject.

DUBLI POLICE
Pill brought in by Mr . CARDWECLLBILL.
QUEEN'S PRINTERS' PATENT.
On the motion of Mr. BAINES; Lord R. Montague was
added to the select committee.
The Thames Conservancy and Poor Law Boards Com-
mittees were severally nominated.
The house adjourned at a quarter past 1 o'clock. •

LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sues Office, No, 112,
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of
Middlesex, Tuesday, July 26, 1869.