The Sun.
London, England, 1832-06-02 00:00:00

SCOTCH REFORNI BILL.

Lord ALTHORP moved the Order of the Day for the
further consideration of the Scotch Reform Bill.
Sir R. PEEL wished to ask what was to be done with
the Boundarie4 (England) Bill?
Lord J. RUSSELL said he intended to bring it in, if
possible, on Monday next.

The House then resolved itself into Committee on the Bill.
The first clause was postponed.
The second clause, after some conversation, was agreed to.
Upon the third clause being moved,
Sir G. MURRAY rose to complain of the inequality
of the representation as given to the different portions of
the empire by these Bills. He contended that in strict
justice, according to the principles of the Government,
Scotland was entitled to 69 Members. The Right Hon.
Baronet showed, by the different comparisons which had
so often been made, the great disparity of the representa-
tion given to Scotland, as compared with England and
Wal,s, in reference to population, property, and all the
other tests applied in the course of the discussions.
Whether they made these comparisons upon a general
scale, or whether they took them in detail, the same re-
sults were produced. If such a change as that contem-
plated in the Bill were to be made, he could not consent
to see it made unfairly towards Scotland, as certainly it
would he according to its present provisions, and tried by
its own professed rules. The Right Hon. Baronet con-
chided by moving to insert in the clause words to the
effect that two Members should be given to each of the
large counties in schedule A, and one to each of the smaller
ones in schedule B.

Mr. HUME was surprised to hear what he had heard
from the Right Hon. Baronet, who had bitterly opposed
all Reform. The people of Scotland had not asked tor any
change in the Bi;I, and he believed they would be satisfied
with it as it stood.
Sir G. MURRAY explained.
. . _

The LORD ADVOCATE at one time entertained the
same doubts as the lion. and Gallant Officer as to the jus-
tice of the proportions of representation given to Scotland.
But upon investigation be bad satisfied his mind that it was
impossible to have a system of exact symmetrical pro-
portion. The Learned Lord then compared Scotland with
vatiou'i parts of England, showing that by Lieutenant
Drumtnond's tests Scotland had an equal, and in some
cises a larger, share of representation. He contended
also that the proportions of the county and borough re-
presentation in Scotian', as established by the Bill, were
the same as those which existed before the Union, and
more in favour of the counties than they were after that
period. He could see no arrangement by which the
counties could he represented more advantageously than
under that provided by the Bill.

Sir G. CLERK was convinced that Scotland bad a
claim to additional representation. Upon the best infor-
mation he had been able to obtain it was clear that the
agricultural interest of Scotland would not meet with
adequate representation. The Right Hun. Member was
willing to admit that when a material alteration had taken
place in England a change must take place in Scotland ;
but they were bound to take care that justice be done to
Scotland. Whatever might be the proportion between
county and borough Members at the Union, it was neces-
sary to guard against any injury to the agricultural inte-
rest. By giving an excess of representation to the manu-
facturing interest, the agricultural interest would be in-
jured. If one more Member were added to ►he county
Members fur Scotland, the evil which he pointed out might
be remedied. The Right Hon. Baronet could nut consi-
der the Bill a permanent measure.

Sir J. MALCOLM concurred in the sentiments ex-
pressed by his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend. He was
one who voted for General Gascoyne's motion, because he
though the English County ALmbers should remain the
same in number. For the same reason he was unwilling
to disturb the representation fur the purpose of adding
more Members to Scotland. Much hidbe n said about
petitions, but the number of petitions was not the
criterion by which decisions in that House were to be iu-
fluenced,—(llear.) Hun. Members might sail with the
current which had carried them to their haven on the
presint question, but the same current might drive them
much further than they desired to go. If petitions were
to influence all the proceedings in that House, the peti-
tioners would at last become a fourth estate in the Con-
stitution. He should vote for the amendment.

Colonel LINDSAY had never opposed Reform, but he
opposed the Bill then under discussion because it was an
unjust one, and he lamented that his Majesty's Ministers
had brought it forward.
Sir G. WARRENDER said the proposition of General
Gascoyne fur keeping the number of English County
Members unaltered he considered injurious to Scotland.
If more Members were necessary for Scotland they ought
to have them ; but he could not deny the same claim on
the part of Leland. If the number for Scotland was in-
creased they could not refuse to increase those for Ireland.
Mr. SINCLAIR said—Sir, I shall state very shortly to
the House my reasons for opposing the motion of the Right
Hon. and Gallant Member. Notwithstanding all that has
been asserted to the contrary, I am convinced that the
people of Scotland are perfectly satisfied with the measure
as now proposed, and are willing to accept so great a boon
in full of all demands. They would prefer a less conside-
rable number of Members, independently chosen by them-
selves, to a larger proportion of nominal representatives,
elected under the present system of monopoly and injus-
tice. There enters, Sir, into our calculations on this subject,
one important element, which cannot be supposed to influ-
ence the minds of lion. Members opposite—l mean, that
of gratitude towards his Majesty's Ministers, for a measure
by which our rights are so tally secured, and our interests
so essentially promoted. We know they had many parties
to conciliate, many pretensions to adjust, many obstacles
to overcome, many difficulties to contend with. We
believe that their inquiries were conducted with care, and
their decisions dictated by impartiality ; so that as !age a
share of representation has, on the whole, been awarded
to Scotland as was consistent with the rights, and propor,
tioned to the claims, of the other districts of the United
Empire. Sir, I shall here allude to one expression which
fell from the R:ght Um. Member. He has hinted, that
the decisions of this House are mainly influenced by the
will of the Minister. Our opponents, during the whole
of these discussions, in estimating the motives of those
with whom I have the honour to act, have inverted the
order of cause and effect. Our support has been given—
not to Reform for the sake of Ministers, but—to Ministers
for the sake of Reform, believing, as we do, that the suc-
cess of the cause is mainly linked and identified with the
continuance of the present Administration in office. We
have not voted for the disfranchisement of decayed and
dependent towns because they have lo en ranked undo
certain schedules by his Majesty's Government, but we
have rallied round the standard of that Government, be-
cause they were pledged to eradicate nomination borotNiss—
t public nuisance, which, in our opinion, could not be too
soon, or too effectually, swept away. Neither, Sir, have

the Scotch Members on this aide of the House adopted the'
Scotch Reform Bill because it has emanated from the pre-
-ent Cabinet, but we gratefully cooperate with that Cabi-
net because no ether politicians of our day would have vo-
luntarily undertaken the revision of a representative sys-
tem, in our opinion not less derogatory to the honour of
Scotland than detriment d to the interests of the country
at large. It has been urged, by an Hon. Friend of mine,
that the people of Scotland, though favourable to the
principles of this measure, are neither thoroughly ac-
quainted with its details, nor aware how small a number
of additional representatives is allotted to them under its
provisions. To this supposition, I can by no means assent.
The details, as well as the principles, of the Bill, were on
various occasions discussed during the former session, and
both before and since that period have been frequently
sifted in all the public pipers, both metropolita❑ and pro-
vincial, without eliciting one single petition in favour of
the increase of Members, for which those very statesmen
now contend, by whom all Reform was so strenuously re-
sisted, as long as they themselves were in office. Being,
therefore, thankful to the authors of the arrangement now
propounded, and knowing that it is cordially approved of
by my own constituents in particular, as well as by the people
of Scotland in general, I feel that, by giving to it my
hearty and unqualified support, I shall best discharge my
duty towards the country to which I have the honour to
belong, and to promote the real welfare of which I am at
all times most solicitous.

Mr. S. WORTLEY said the Learned Lord Advocate
had been rather shy in citing the representation of Wales
in comparison with Scotland. Whatever might be said
about Lancashire and Yorkshire, there was a greater ana-
logy between Scotland and Wales. Upon a comparison
with the principality of Wales, Scotland had cause to
complain of the want of a fair proportion of Representa_
tives. He could not avoid giving his support to the
amendment.

Mr. STEWART supported the Bill, and considered it
a great boon to Scotland. He thought it was matter of
congratulation that Hon. Members on the opposite side
now appeared to have become Ultra-Reformers.
Mr, R. A. DUNDAS repeated the objections which
he had previously made to the Bill, and then proceeded to
offer some remarks in reply.
_ _ _

Sir A. DALRYMPLE would not have risen had it not
been that he felt the Hon. Member for Middlesex bad
assumed a sort of dictatorship on this occasion. He would
support the motion of the Hon. and Gallant Member.
Mr. C. BRUCE, we believe, after a few words, stated
his intention to vote for the amendment, and denied that
the feeling in Scotland was unanimously iu favour of this
Bill.

Mr. PRINGLE supported the amendment of the Right
Hon. and Gallant Officer.
Mr. C. PELHAM maintained that there should be an
increase of Members given to Scotland.
Mr. SHEIL rose to state a simple fact, and to ask a
simple question. The University of Dublin at present re-
turned one Member, and it was proposed to give it one
more. In Scotland there were four Universities. How
did it happen that in the latter cases not one Member was
to be returned ?

The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the Amendment GI
For the original clause l6B
Majority in favour of the original clause 107
On our return to the gallery we found the CHAIRMAN
putting some clauses, upon which
Mr. C. BRUCE had no hope, after the division which
had just taken place, in carrying any motion made by him
into effect ; but he trusted that the county of Elgin, the
constituency of which was purely agricultural, was one
worthy of peculiar notice. It was, however, iuteuded by
this Bill to swamp the county of Elgin by joining it with
another county. The Hon. Member having entered into
various details, proceeded to appeal to the justice of the
Learned Lord, and to move that the county of Elgin be
transferred from schedule B to schedule A.

The CHAIRMAN suggested that the Committee were
only on clause 3.
The motion was then withdrawn.
On clause 6 being put, the Hon. Captain GORDON
moved the adjournment of the debate till to-morrow.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the Com-
mittee was ordered to sit again on Monday.
Mr. STANLEY postponed the further progress of the
Irish Reform Bill till Wednesday seinnight.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of
Ways and Means, the report was ordered to be received on
Monday upon the suggestion of Sir G. CLERK, who stated
that some Hon. Friends of his were desirous of offering
some remarks upon the bringing up of the report.
On the motion of Lord TULLAMORE, that the Report
on the King's County Assize Bill be brought up,
Mr. PONSONBY moved the postponement of this pro-
ceeding, and declared he would take the sense of the House
upon the question.

- After afew words from Lord TULLAMORE and Mr. J.
GRATTAN, the House divided, when there appeared—
For the original motion (.O
For the amendment 8

Alajority in favour of the original motion —s4
The Report was then brought up, and the Bill ordered
to be engrossed, and to be read a third time on Wednes-
day next.

On the motion of Mr. SPRING RICE, the Punishment
of Death Abolition Bill (in certain cases) was read a third
time and passed.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned shortly after Two o'Clock.