The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-31 00:00:00

• /

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 31, 1835.

appropriation
of Chui ch property would be conformable
to the principles which had been acted upon in all the
States of Europe. If the Legislature found in process of
time, as circumstances changed, that new wants and new
claims sprung up, they had not only the right, but it was
their bounden duty, to take such measures as might meet
those wants and satisfy those claims, so as to leave no class
of their fellow-subjects cause for just complaint.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) We had most wisely, most justly, and most pru-
dently consulted the wishes in these respects of the people of
Hanover, of Canada, and other places. Surely the right which
had been conceded to minor portions of the Empire, we ought
not to withhold from six millions of our fellow-subjects in so
important a part of the empire as Ireland. Every right but
this had, one by one, been restored to the people of Ireland.
The Legislature had done them justice in every point but one.
Let it, however, be remembered that their power to withhold
that one point had diminished in proportion as the other
rights of the people of Ireland had been restored to them.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) They had given the Catholics political
freedom ; how was it to be expected that they would not exer-
cise that power for the attainment of religious freedom ?
( Hear, hear, hear.) He was by no means desirous of ren-
dering the establishment of Ireland Catholic.—( Hear, hear. )
The Catholics themselves preferred the voluntary principle.
But what he wished was to see a different application of a
large portion of the revenues of the present establishment.
It was not a trifling measure that would be sufficient ; all
must be done that ought to be done. When once the
principle of concession was admitted, there ought to be
no limit to concession but that which justice prescribed.--
( Hear, hear.) But why should he for a moment anticipate
that such would not be the case ? Why should he for a mo-
ment believe that the House of Commons would not do the
Irish people the justice to which they were entitled ?—( Hear,
hear.) He once more warned those who thought that the re-
quired concessions would be dangerous to the Church Este-
Irlishment of this country, not to fight the battles of the Eng-
lish Church upon Irish ground.—( Hear, hear.) They had a
great deal in their power as respected the Protestant Esta-
blishment of England. They had not, they never bad, and
they never could have, a great deal in their power as respected
the Protestant Establishment of Ireland. Four-fifths of the
population of Ireland were anxiously expecting justice. He
sincerely hoped and believed, that by the decision of that night
they would not be disappointed ; on the contrary, he sincerely
hoped and believed that the decision of that night would hold
out the expectation of measures which not only the welfare
but the very existence of the integrity of the empire demanded.
The Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering.
Mr. LEFROY and Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose together; but the
House calling loudly on the latter, Mr. LEFROY sat down.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM expressed his concurrence in the
opinions expressed on this subject by the" Right Hon. Sec-
retary at War. He had very peculiar feelings on the ques-
tion ; connected as it was with religious and conscientious
scruples, which, while they bound individuals, ought not in
his opinion to be made too much the topic of public discus-
sion. The Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had told
the House that the present was a vital question. To him
( Sir J. Graham) it had been a fatal question.—( A laugh,
and cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") He knew from what
quarter that sneer proceeded. Was that the answer which
he so soon received to his appeal for the candid indulgence of
the House?—( Hear, hear.) He repeated that to him this
had been a fatal question. It had hurled him from power.
But it had done much more. It had severed him from his
closest political connections. It had suspended, it had threat-
ened, but he trusted it would not dissolve, some of his
earliest friendships. The declaration might exclude him
for ever from public life; but he was convinced, with the
Honourable Member for St. Albans, that the question
was one of such vital importance, that it would admit
of no compromise whatever.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
He had, while he had the honour to be a Member of the Ca-
binet, carried his concessions as far as he could ; he would
carry them no farther now.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for St. Albans had characterized the present proceeding as
a trial of the confidence which the House reposed in the pre-
sent Administration. On this point he begged to say, that in
his opinion, in the present crisis, no Government could be
formed, or could exist on any basis, but the broad one of per-
fect agreement as to the course to be pursued with reference to
the Church Establishment of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) One
of the principal reasons which had influenced him to give Go-
vernment his support throughout the present Session of Par-
liament, was mainly founded on the sentiments expressed on
the subject of the Protestant Church Establishment in Eng-
land and Ireland by his Right Honourable Friend at the head
of the Government, in his letter to his constituents.—( Hear.)
Unquestionably he agreed with the Hon. Member for St. Al-
bans, that it was most desirable to arrive at a settlement of the
question ; but by what mode, was the point at issue. The
argument of the Honourable Member for St. Albans was cer-
tainly very liberal, if not lax. It might be resolved into this,
" I am not very particular as to the purpose of the appropria-
tion. Give it to charitable institutions, give it to education,
give it to anything so long as you take it from the Protes-
tant Church."—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentle-
man laid his principle down as a general proposition, applica-
ble not only to the Church of Ireland, but to all corporations ;
maintaining that if that principle were not recognised, it would
be a bar to all future alterations in such corporotions. It was
that statement which filled him ( Sir James Graham) with
alarm.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was because if the proposition
were adopted there would be no bar to ulterior proceedings
with respect to corporations generally, that it was his inten-
tion to vote with his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary at War,
The Hon. Member for St. Albans said that this was the first
step, and that he trusted the House would pronounce in its
favour. That it was the first step—that it was the commence-
ment of a course of measures trenching on all local property,
and on all the security of the Church Establishment—it was
that filled him ( Sir J. Graham) with alarm, and compelled
him, as a conscientious man, to oppose it.—( Hear, hear.) Nor
did he feel it possible to consider the question apart altogether
from the time and circumstances under which it was brought
forward. His Noble Friend the Member for Devonshire had
declared that he was friendly to the Church of England. But
he must be allowed to ask his Noble Friend if he was confi-
dent that the great body of those who were prepared to
support his Noble Friend's motion could with equal truth
declare that they were friendly to the Church of England?
—( Hear, hear, hear.) He must remind the House that
the last Session a motion was made so unfavourable to the
Church of England, as even to propose the exclusion of the.
Bishops from the House of Lords; and that in favour of that
motion one member of the then existing Government voted.—
( Hear, hear.) Had they not repeatedly heard the question
mooted in that House, whether what was called the voluntary
principle was not preferable to the connection between Church
and State ?—( Hear, hear.) He asked the House to look at
the occurrences of former times. He asked the House to
look at the days when the Bishops. were expelled from the
House of Lords ; when the connection between the Church
and the State was dissolved ; when the voluntary principle
was substituted for that connection. Had the history of
those days been written in vain ? What were the terms in
which a' sceptical historian had spoken of them ? " Gaiety
and wit were proscribed : human learning despised : free-
dom of inquiry detested : cant and hypocrisy alone en-
couraged " After the long prevalence of civil war, anarchy,
and bloodshed, the people, finding themselves without hope
of tranquillity, made an unconditional surrender of their
liberties, and fled to the Throne for shelter and protec-
t;on. He certainly could not believe that the lesson to be
derived from those occurrences would be thrown away.
He was bound, however, distinctly to admit that there was a
difference between the grounds on which Church property and
the grounds on which private property stands. That distinc-
tion had been ably stated by his Noble Friend the Member
for Devonshire, when citing Hallam's opinion on the subject.
It was stated by that writer that hereditary property was clothed
with a kind of fictitious immortality, and could not be inter-
fered with by the Legislature ; but that the ultimate destina-
tion of property in mortmain, with reference to which there
was not so intimate a connection between one proprietor and
his successor, might be changed by the State. But then he
added, " That Church property was, like other property, vested
in trustees for certain uses; and, like that property, the des-
tination of it could be changed only within the limit of those
uses." The question then was, what were the uses to which
the property of the Church Establishment in Ireland was
limited?—( Hear, hear.) The property of the Church Esta-
blishment was granted to that Establishment for the mainte-
nance and propagation of the Protestant religion. He had no
difficulty in saying that Church Reform in Ireland, and in Eng-
land, too, was justifiable under this limitation—that the pro-
perty was to be re-distributed for the benefit of the Church.—
( Hear.) As long as the re-distribution was for purposes
strictly for the benefit of the Protestant Church, Parliament
had decidedly the power to reform, and, in his opinion, might
use that power advantageously. But what had been done
with respect to Church property in Ireland ? It had been
stated that the amount of tithes in Ireland was 800,0001. But
the Hun. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin
had demonstrated, in a speech last Session, which, in his ( Sir
James Graham's) opinion, was unanswerable, that 620,000/.
was about their actual amoisnt. On this a charge of 70,000/.
had been removed from the land to the Church Commission.
A tax had been imposed on all benefices, of from three to fif-
teen per cent. What was the principle of that tax ? It was
to meet cases in which the Protestant minister of a parish
might be in the receipt of a large revenue, with few or no Pro-
testant parishioners. Two years ago it had been determined
by Parliament, that were divine service had not been perform-
ed in any parish between 1830 and 1833, on the next vacancy
the Ecclesiastical Commission should suspend the filling up
of the living, and should appoint a curate ; and that. after the
payment of that curate's stipend, the surplus revenue of the
benefice should go to the general purposes of the Commis-
sion. In consenting to this plan, lie strained his conscience as
far as :he could upon the principle of appropriation.—( A
laugh from the Opposition, and a elLeer from Lord Stanley.)
That concession was made for the sake of union and har-
mony ; and none of his former colleagues, or of those who
left office with him, could say that in .his present resistance
to the proposed change of appropriation in Church property,
he was acting at variance with the language he had held in
private, or with the measures he had agreed to. It was no
matter of surprise to him that those who were generally
hostile to the Established Church, should make the first as-
sault on the Irish portion of that Church ; for in Ireland it
was the religion of a local minority set up in a country
where the great majority of the inhabitants were Catholics.
--(Cheers from the Reformers.) He fairly admitted, there-
fore, that they were wise in selecting a weak point of attack ;
and although those who thought with him had to defend it at
disadvantage, he was mistaken if was not the key to the po-
sition of the Church Establishment ; and in his conscience
he believed, that if the House allowed of this altered appro-
priation, not only in a short time would the Protestant re-
ligion cease to exist as the established religion of Ireland,
but incidentally they would introduce a principle fatal to the
existence of the Established Church here also.—(Loud cries

of " Hear, hear.") Alf he wished was to have the Church
property dealt with upon the same principle as other pro-
perty. Let the house, consider then, in what light they should
regard such a proposition as this applied to other trust pro-
perty. The Corporation of Liverpool was possessed of large
property which it applied to the improvement of the commerce
and the trade of that emporium ; but it had now almost ex-
hausted the possibility of improving the quays and docks of
that great harbour. A year or two ago the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin was exceedingly anxious to have
a ship canal made from Dublin to Kingstown. The trade of
Dublin was incidentally connected with that of Liverpool—
but what would any rational man have said to a proposition for
applying the surplus revenues of the Corporation of Liverpool
to the construction of the Dublin ship canal.—( Cries of Oh.)
A Commission of which the Hon. and Learned Member was
a member, appointed to deal with Corporation property, would
no doubt speedily make the Dublin ship canal, and reduce the
Liverpool surplus to a deficiency.—( Hear.) But the surplus
of the Church of Ireland, with which Honourable Members
contemplated dealing, could not exceed one hundred thousand
pounds. The extraordinary eagerness manifested upon that
subject, could not be for the sake of getting at this small
sum, but for the sake of the principle.—(Hear, and
loud cheering.) If Honourable Members opposite, had
got hold of a surplus, and were to have entirely their own
way, what would they do with so pitiful sum ? His firm con-
viction was, that they wished to take it, not because the State
was poor, but because the Church was rich—(Mingled cries
of " Hew-, hear," and " No, no")—not that the State might
gain, but that the Church might lose.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Admit this, and at once you break down the great doctrine of
meum and Inure, the foundation of all property, the object of
all Government to maintain, and which if you once relax, you
receded from civilization to barbarism.—( Hear, hear.) On
the subject of the supposed riches of the Irish clergy, he begged
to refer to a document to which his Noble Friend at least
would not object, for it was prepared by Mr. Erck under the
direction of the Government, of which they were both mem-
bers in 1832. It appeared from that paper that there were
altogether 1,450 livings in Ireland, from 1,123 of which
only had returns been received. Of these 570, or one half
of those from which returns had been obtained, were under
2501. per annum in value ; 854 of the number were un-
der 450/. in value, and 948 under 950/. in value ; leaving
only 175 above that value. This was before the plan for
taxing livings above a certain value was resolved upon ; but
supposing taxes averaging 30 per cent. were imposed upon
the livings which would come under the operation of the Act
of Parliament, four-fifths of all the livings referred to in that
return were under 400/. in value. As long as the produce was
applied to Protestant purposes, he saw no limit, but the discre-
tion of Parliament, to this principle of taxing livings. It might
be said that all Protestant uses must have been exhausted. He
was informed, however, that there were many unions of pa-
rishes in Ireland, which were not favourable to the maintenance
and spread of Protestantism, and as long as there were such
union, which might be properly dissolved, there would be
Protestant uses for the produce of this species of taxation.
But in addition to demands of that nature, he could well con-
ceive that it might be very properly made a question whether
the million loan to the Irish clergy might not be obtained back
from this surplus fund.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Eng-
land and of Scotland had a right to look for repayment of this
sum ; and as it was a strictly ecclesiastical purpose, he saw no
objection in principle to its being made a kind of rent-charge
on ecclesiastical property. The Honourable Member far St.
Albans had alluded to the article of the Union with Ire-
land which related to this subject. Now, although he did

not consider Acts of Parliaments as unalterable, as the laws
of the Modes and Persians, and the Act of Union had been
at different times trenched upon, he did look upon the article
relating to this subject as peculiarly binding. The contract
e entered into at the Union was with a Legislature ex-
clusively Protestant, which would never have consented to the
Union but upon this condition. This was a consideration
which made him look with jealousy at the first step, as he
considered this proposition, to the establishment of the Ca-
tholic religion as the religion of the State in Ireland, and
the dissolution of the union which now existed between the
Churches of the two countries.—( Cheers.) The late Lord
Minto, in a speech made before the Union with Ireland,
uttered some observations which were peculiarly in point on
this subject. [The Right Hon. Baronet then read a part
of Lord Minto's speech on the Union with Ireland, in con-
firmation of his view of the importance to be attached to
the article relating to the Church.] He knew it would be
attempted to be argued, that the introduction of the question
of the truth of a religion was inconsistent with religious tole-
ration. As respected civil rights, religious opinions should
be no ground for departing from the most perfect equality ;
but as respected the question of establishing a favoured reli-
gion as the religion of the State, it was impossible to exclude
the consideration of its truth. It was said that the proposition
before them was intended to produce peace. If, indeed, peace
were to be produced, lie could understand a proposition for at
once establishing Catholicism in Ireland upon Paley's prin-
ciple ; but this was a trifling change, dangerous in principle,
but too insignificant in effect to be productive of peace, sup-
posing peace likely to be produced by any such measure as this.
Let the Noble Lord choose from how many parishes of Ireland
lie would remove the Ministers. Would he withdraw them
from a fourth of the parishes of Ireland ? The Noble Lord
did not seem to say whether that would satisfy him,
but he could not believe that, carrying his principles
as far as he desired, he would go beyond that. What then
was to become of the peace of the remaining three-fourths of Ireland ?
Every thing was to remain in statu quo; Protestant ministers were to
remain surrounded by a large proportion of Catholic population, and
the amount of tithe was everywhere to be undiminished. This, then,
would not be a measure of peace If they were to waive a great prin-
ciple, then do it for some distinct object. Let it be put to the Repre-
sentatives of the sister kingdom, whether they think it expedient, with
a view to politics or religion, that the union between the Church of
England and the Church of Ireland should be severed, and that the
Catholic religion should be estiblished in the sister country with the
view of obtaining peace. That would be intelligible; but he would
then ask whether they had not been promised this peace before ?
(Cheers). He begged to refer them to the evidence given before the
Committee which sat on the state of Ireland by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Tipperary, and a Learned Divine, now no more. The
Right Hon. Baronet then read extracts from the evidence given by Mr.
Shell and Dr. Doyle, with a view to show that those gentlemen were
then of opinion, that if Catholic Emancipation were granted, there
would be no more agitation there, either on the subject of repeal or of
tithes It was now his duty to show how completely those hopes
had been falsified, and those promises forgotten. He should proceed
to read the sentiments published by another Roman Catholic clergyman
in 1833—he alluded to the publication of Dr. INPHaIe, in which the
Rev. Gentleman spoke of the effects that would be produced by the mea-
sure of Catholic Emancipation. In 1833, when the Roman Catholic
population were in the enjoyment of a perfect equality of civil rights
with their Protestant fellow-countrymen, these were the sentiments
expressed
by a Roman Catholic prelate :—" Atter all the evils that
have been heaped upon this devoted land, it is some consolation to re-
flect that the legislative axe has been laid to the root of the Established
Church. The pruners of the ecclesiastical vineyard have not read the
Roman history in vain. The baneful plants which poisoned by their
narcotic influence the wholesome vegetation around are laid low ;
and this, doubtless, is the prelude to a larger and more extensive
prostration." He (Sir James Graham) thought that the Reverend
Gentleman spoke that in a spirit of prophecy, intending to
allude to the proposition they were then discussing.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) He continued:—" With every step of refocus existing
abuses will be removed, until it is hoped not a vestige of the mighty
nuisance will remain." That, lie imagined, was the removal of the na-
tional grievances of which they had heard so much that night ; he (Sir
James Graham) was a very sincere Protestant : he believed the hon.
and learned member for Dublin to be a very sincere Catholic, and how-
ever some of that creed might havedeemed it expedient, for the sake of
forwarding the views which they entertained, to disguise or conceal those
sentiments, he ( Sir. O'Connell) at least had never dissembled his ; but,
on the contrary, had declared them deliberately, plainly, and in the
strongest and most direct terms that the English language would at:.
ford. He would first read a letter of the Hon. and Learned Member to
Mr. Sharman Crawford, now a Member of this House. It was upon the
subject of the Tithe Bill introduced during the administration of Lord
Melbourne, and was dated from Derrinane Abbey, lOth October, 1834.
It was its these terms :—" It was quite true that I demanded,

.1 ."--- .

gentry, he thought it would not be difficult to prove that the existence of
a resident clergy, composed of well-educated men, over whom the prin-
ciple of restraint was constantly exercised, and whose morals were un.
impeached, spending their income amongst their parishioners, and set-
ting an ( xample of piety aY d virtue, so far from being an evil, was a po_

sitive good.—(Hear, hear.) He found a strong testimony to that fact
in a quarter where he should least expect to have found it—he found it

iE the evidence of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin himself.

—(Hear, hear.) In 1825. when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
examined as to the magistracy of Ireland, this question was put to him
—" Is it not necessary at present to have clergymen magistrates in
some parts of Ireland, from the want of other fit and proper persons to
perform the magisterial functions ?" What was the answer ? "Certainly
it is ; the rectors of the Established Church (he, Sir James Graham

begged the House to observe this) were generally gentlemen of
education, and constituted, as a part of the magistracy, in particular in-

, .
stances, a most respectable and befitting class."—( Ministerial cheers.)
Now, continued the Right lion. Baronet, it will be said that in the line
I am on this occasion pursuing, Jam departing from those Whig princi-
ples which I ever since I entered into public life, and have always en-
tertained, and to which I flatter myself (vainly it will be said by the

other side of the House) I still adhere. What are the doctrines—what
the principles of the ‘Vhigs ? lam speaking in the presence of a mem-

ber of the illustrious house of Russell— (Hrar, hear) —a house not less

distinguished for its love of freedom than for its attachment to the Pro-
testant religion if in the presence of such a man I may venture to de-
fine the principles of the Whigs, I should say that they consist in a bold

assertion of the utmost freedom both of faith and action in all matters,

whether of state or religicn, to the fullest extent consistent with law,

order, and constitutional submission.—(Cheers.) No death's head and
cross bones denunciations—(Great cheering)—to control the free ex-
ercise of the elective franchise—no prayer addressed to Heaven—(Hear,
hear, hear)—to withhold its mercy from the man bold enough
to defy the denunciation— (Cheers)—and to vote as his conscience

dictated.—(Cheers.) The principles of the Whigs, if I understand
them, consist no less of a love of liberty, than of a jealousy of the Ca-
tholic religion as an engine of power, whenever it steps forth and arro.

gates to itself the right of ascendancy; and, above all, I conceive those

principles to consist in a warm and uncompromising attachment to the
Protestant religion, as by law established in this land.—(Cheers.) I

have but one more topic to allude to :—I have told the House that I
have a religious feeling upon the subject ; let me now add, that I think
the property set apart by our ancestors, whether in England or Ireland,
for the purpose of maintaining in perpetuity the Protestant religion, is
sacred, and must be applied to that purpose.—(Ministerial cheers.)
More than that, I say that those who administer at the altar have a
right to live by the altar.—(Cheers.) I say that that principle is as
high as heaven, and you cannot touch it—(Cheers)—it is as strong as
the Almighty, and you cannot overturn it—it is as fast as the Eternal,
and can never cease to bind you—(Cheers)—it is fixed in you as Chris.
tian men, and as Christian legislators can never fail to actuate you.
This Is the view that I take of the principle of the question which we

are called on to decide, and I for one will declare that no consideration on
earth shall induce me to compromise or to destroy it.—(Cheers.)

Lord HOWICK had listened with the greatest attention to the whole
of the arguments his Right Hon. Friend had that night advanced, and
he confessod that, having done so, he was totally at a loss to know how
his Right Hon. Friend had arrived at his conclusion when compared
with some of the principles which he had laid down.—(Hear, hear.)
His Right Hon. Friend had stated explicitly that he agreed with those

general views of corporate property expressed by his Noble Friend the
Member for Devonshire, and quoted from Hallam upon this ques-
tion. He stated distinctly that corporate property, made for a certain
use, had no resemblance to personal property ; that it was placed upon
a different foundation ; and that property being granted for certain
uses, it was the buslness of the Legislature to see if it answered those
uses. Then said his Right Hon. Friend. " the property of the Church

of Ireland was granted for this use, and that use was to maintain the Pro-
testant 1 hurch in Ireland." He might find some little fault with this

definition if he were disposed to do so. He might say that this property

was given, not merely for the purpose of propagating, maintaining, and
upholding the Protestant religion in Ireland, but it was given for the

purpose of bringing the characters and minds of the Irish population
under the influence of the high and exalted motives of religion. It
was to promote the general welfare, the peace, and the order of the
whole community, that this property was set apart for the maintenance
of the Church of Ireland. He did not mean to narrow the question, as
even he might do, and take it upon the statement of his Right Hon.
Friend. His Right Hon. Friend said that the property was given to

maintain the Protestant religion in Ireland. He would ask his Right
lion. Friend, had it so maintained that Protestant religion ?—(Hear,
and cheers.) His Noble Friend the Member for Devonshire had given
that night a statement of the progress—the fearfully progressive decline
of Protestantism in Ireland under the present system. He remem-
bered the Right Baronet (Sir R. Peel), in speaking of Catholic emanci-
pation, asked the same question respecting the penal laws under which
the Catholics then laboured—he then asked, had that system succeeded
in propagating Protestantism—had those laws which inflicted disabili.

ties served it? Ile would say the same of the present system. He
would say, " Loak to the statement of his Noble Friend, and then let
it be declared whether that system propagated Protestantism in Ire-

- - -
[and "—(Hear, and cheers.) That should not be deemed by him a mat_
- - • -

for the present, but a partial reduction—it was three-tiftlis—of
the tithes. Why did I ask fur no more ? Why did I not
demand the abs itian of the entire? Because I had no chance" ,and
here again we have the Hon. Member for St. Albans using the saute
language), " in the first instance of getting the entire abolished ; and
you perceive that I was refused the extent which I asked, being three-
tifihs, and only got from the House of Commons two-fifths. I had,
therefore, not the least prospect or possibility of destroying the entire,
and because I am one of those who have been always ready to
accept of any instalment, however small, of the debt of justice due to
the people—the real national debt"—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Did the Hon. Gentleman mean to say that tithes were a debt due to the
people of Ireland? But Mr. O'Connell proceeded:—" I have been and
am ready to accept of any instahnent of that debt, determined to go on,
and look for the remainder as soon as the first instalment should be

completely realised. It is totally untrue that I acquiesced in the per-
petual continuance of the remaining three-fifths of the tithes " These
were very ominous words, and after what was read from this same letter

by the Right Hon Member for Tamsvorth respecting the character
of Lord John Russell, Lord Melbourne, and Lord Duncannon, he
(Sir James Graham) was at a loss to know what the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman meant by the next paragraph in the let-
ter, for it was to this effect:—" The honest and reflecting part
of the Ministry must perceive that tithes must be abolished—
totally, unequivocally abolished—abolished without delay or condi-
tion." Such was the bold and undisguised declaration of the Hon.
and Learned Member in October last. It was obvious taat tithes must
be totally extinguished without delay. Nothing iould be more clear—
nothing more explicit. Did the Hon. and Learned Member leave them
more in the (1,1-k with respect to the question of appropriation ? Upon
that point there appeared to be some difference of opinion between the
Hon. and Learned Member and the Hon. Member for St. Albans. At
all events the plan of appropriation opened by the Hon Member for St.
Albans bore no resemblance to that put forward by the lion. and Learned
Member for Dublin. In a letter front Derrinane Abbey, also addressed
to Mr. Sharman Crawford, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman expre.scd
himself in these terms :—" My plan is, apply the funds derived trom
this quarter (meaning the Church) to the relief of the occupiers of the
land from Grand Jury cess, and to defray all the expenses of dispen-
saries, infirmaries, hospitals, asylums, and other charitable in-
stitutions." Thi.s, according to the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber's view, the whole tithes of Ireland were to be granted
to the occupiers of the lard, in order to enable them to do that which
it was a question whether they were not now bound to do as well by law
as by the common dictates of humanity. On the 31st of July, 1834, the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman again wrote to Mr. Crawford in these
terms :—" It was only last night that the Ministers allowed"—(this was
a curious expression, coming front the lion. and Learned Gentleman)—
" the House of Commons to strike out Ss. in the pound of Irish tithes.
Did the people of England understand whet that meant ? Why should
not Ss. be as good in the pockets of the people of England as in the
Pockets of Paddy ? Let us go on. he King yielded to the voice of
the people before, and why should he not do so again ?—(Cheers.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after some other observations, proceeded
as follows :—" The hereditary legislative body ought to be done away
with. Both Houses ought to be representatives of the people. Two
!louses of Parliament elected by the people were necessary to give fixity
to the lit.ertios of the people." If there could be any mistake as
to what the lion. and Learned Member intended by those expressions,
he did not long leave his correspondent in doubt. He (Sir James
Graham) did not know how the Hon. and Learned Member could re-
concile the principle that he then professed with that professed by his
Noble Leader now —(Cheers.) lie did not know whether the leader
had adopted the principle of the follower, or the follower had shaped his
to that of the leader.--(Laughter and cheers.) At all events, on the Ist

of October hut these were the words addressed by the Hon. and La arhea
Gentlema, to, his usual correspondent :—" My object is to establish a
principle. It is, that every denomination of Christians should support
their own sp ritual instructors." Taken negatively, "That no one
Christian should be compelled to maintain the spiritual guide of an-
other." This is our principle, " our great principle."—(Loud cheers
from the Opposition.) He (Sir James Graham) bad heard the
Hon. and Learned Member explain that principle still more distinctly

in his place in Parliament. Ile had heard him expoutid it in this way ;
that he hoped to see the day in this country, when every clergynrm,
should be paid like the lawyer or the physician, by the fee for the ',GI,
—(Cheers.) Now he (Sir James Graham' did not wish to allude 'Asti
diously to anything that had fallen from the Hon. and Learned mem-
ber ; but when he saw the manner in which the principles which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman contended for had worked amougst the
Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland, he could not abstain fre,m ex
pressing a hope that the melancholy day its which such a principle
should obtain in England might be long deferred. He wuulri now se-

turn for a moment to the condition of Protestant clergy in Ire_
land. He had already endeavoured to show what that condition really
was, atid how much it had sometimes been misrepresented. Now Le
contended that if they were to have an established rerigion, and mi-
nisters of that religion resident in every parish, two, things were ne-
cessary—first, that the provision for the parson should be placed be.
yond the caprice of his parishioners ; and. secondly, that the amount
of the provision should be sufficient to maintain him in a station of
independence—(llcar, hear)--he would add, sufficient to maintain not
only the parson, but the parson's family—for under ti.e Protestant
Establishment marriage was encouraged amongst the clergy, and ex.
perience proved that an unmarried priesthood was an unholy priest-
hood.—(Hear, hear.) Placing it thus upon high and religious grounds,
he would not condescend to argue the point upon any lower one—he
would not discuss it as one of political expediency. But as one of the
greatest evils of Ireland was declared to be the absence of the resident

ter of surprise. He could not be surprised at the people of Ireland
feeling it as a grievance and an insult to them that the large property
of the Church should be entirely devoted to the Clergy of a creed
which was alien to them. He could not be surprised, he must say,
that the people of Ireland were ill-disposed to receive that creed.—
(Hear, hear.) But that was not the only cause, as it seemed to him,
of the decline of Protestantism. He had only to look to what daily
passes in Ireland, and what, he was sorry to say, passed in that house
upon the Irish debates. He had only to look to those proceedings, to
be convinced that the present state of things in Ireland was not merely
calculated to prevent the propagation of the Protestant religion in be.
land, but must be most deeply injurious to the true interests of Protes-
tantism even among Protestants themselves.—(Hear.) He was not the
person to say that the manner in which the tax for the support of the
Protestant Church was collected was the only thing to be condemned.

He confessed that he deeply sympathised with the Irish people in the
grievances they had to complain of; but he did say that those grievances
had provoked from some amongst them attacks upon the Church, con-
ducted with more acrimony and much greater violence than the provo-
cation itself warranted.—(Hear.) But if this were the case with those
who attacked the Church, what were they to say in that House of those
who were its defenders ? They would see in the Irish newspapers ac-
counts of great Protestant meetings—speeches were delivered at those
meetings—above all, speeches were delivered by Protestant Clergymen
at those meetings—speeches in which those Clergyman addressed them-
selves to their partizans, and endeavoured to increase still more the bit-
terness of that acrimony with which they were influenced—speeches
containing and breathing a spirit the very reverse of the spirit of peace
and of the Gospel.—(Hear, hear.) When he spoke thus of those men,
he could not help feeling that the worst effects must fall back upon
themselves, whatever might be their motives, or whatever injustice they

supposed was intended to be committed towards them. He did not
mean to blame the individual Clergymen ; he thought it was not the
fault of the individual, but of the system. Placed in the situation in

which they were, it was hardly possible that they could do otherwise
than fall into error. But the Right Honourable Baronet, in arguing

what he termed the alienation of Church property, asked would they

give a portion of it for making a ship canal from Kingstown to Dublin ?
And would that be consistent with justice? He had a right to ask the
Bight Hon. Baronet another question. ould he, supposing this_ to
. „

be a possible case—that the property of the Corporation of Liverpool
was not in the tolls upon the vessels coming into harbour, but in the
rates of lands and tithes—he would suppose also that this property was
given to the Corporation of Liverpool, for the purpose of removing the
impediments to the navigation of the river and harbour—that in course
of time, and from natural causes, the navigation of the river became a
matter of the greatest difficulty, from the constant accumulation of
sands cast up by the sea—would the Right Honourable Gentleman
maintain that—under such circumstances—he would oppose the
property of the Corporation of Liverpool being applied to any
other purpose but the hopeless one of reducing sand-banks,
and continually striving to force back the waves of the ocean—
(Loud cries of hear, hear)—and this, until Liverpool should be
as deserted as the condemed Old Sarum, or like some of the Cinque
Ports, to which no ship could now come within three or four miles ?
Would the Right Lion. Baronet assert that the Corporation property, its
rates and tithes, should only be applied to the purposes for which they
were granted? Would he come down with some old charter and tell
them that there it was laid down the property was originally given for

the harbour of Liverpool, and, no matter how useless might now be
its application, he must sanction the principle by his support, and not
consent to any alienation from the original purposes ?—(Hear.) His
Right Hon. Friend would embark in a contest which was equally hope-
less and futile ; he would maintain the property in support of the Pro-
testant Church of Ireland, in spite of the feelings and wishes of nine_
tenths of the population of that country; he would snake the property
intended to diffuse the benefits of peace and civilization throughout that
country—such a property he would make the means of deluging
the whole of the kingdom of Ireland in blood, and rendering it a scene
of confusion and disorder from one end to the other.—( Hear, and cheers.)
Ilis Right Hon, Friend acknowledged the principle laid down by Paley,
that the religion of the State should be the religion of the majority ;
but then his Right Hon. Friend said it should be of the majority of the
whole of the country. That, be confessed from a Gentleman who came
from so near the Scotch borders, was a proposition which not a little
astonished him —(Hear, and laughter.) Why, then, as such was
the opinion Of his Right Hon. Friend, did he not come down to
that House with a Bill recommending and sanctioning that principle
and recommence the same project which was so foolishly undertaken
by the Stuarts for converting the Scotch Presbyterians into Episcopa-
lians ?—(Laughter.) On his own principles, his Right Hon. Friend was
bound to do this.—(Laughter.) But his Right Hon. Friend said, it
might be very well to talk of applying that property if its uses for Pro-
testantism were exhausted in Ireland. That doctrine sounded to him
as very extraordinary. Did his Right Hon. Friend mean that so long
as there was a single Protestant in the whole of Ireland (having shown
that property was'given for the good of the whole and not of a part)—
that so long as that was the case, no application of that property would
be made for the benefit of the nation at large ?—(Hear, and cheers.) If
that was the doctrine his Right Hon. Friend meant to lay down, he
could not comprehend it.—(Hear.) But his Right Hon. Friend had
taken up another ground for maintaining the present condition of the
Protestant religion as it was established in Ireland. His Right Hon.
Friend called upon that House to decide which was the true faith. Ile
was not a little astonished to find his Right Hon. Friend venture upon
this ground. Did his Right Hon. Friend mean to convert that House
into an arena for theological discu,sions ? Did he mean to bring under
his arm huge volumes of his Fathers, while he and the lion. and
Learned Member for Dublin should contend which was the true
faith, the Protestant or the Catholic ?—(Cheers and laughter.)
Now it might possibly happen (though his opinion was otherwise), but it
might by possibility happen, that the opinion of the House would be ad-
verse to his Right Hon. Friend.—(Laughter.) And would, then, his
Right Hon. Friend be prepared to say, that he would allow the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin, if he succeeded in showing the Catholic to
be the true Church, that it would be made the established Church in Ire.
land?—(Cheers and laughter.) Would his Right Hon. Friend follow
out the principle to that result P But he had seen his Right Hon. Friend