The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JULY 10, 1835.

--ve,re infernal machines.—( Laughter.) It was owing, in a great
measure, to the solicitor, that the necessary Returns were not
made. He was paid by fees, and there could be no check upon
him. Of course, the more he engaged the Post-office in liti-
gation, the better for him.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman referred to an instance in which the solicitor had
been called on to give an opinion. He decided that some pa-
pers might be send abroad open in a box, but the Act would
not allow them to be sent closed without charging a postage
on them. The arrangements respecting the transmission of
papers from our own Colonies was most objectionable. The
paper he now produced he had received from New York, and
it had cost him one half-penny. (The Hon. Gentleman here
unfolded the paper, and spread it upon the floor of the House ;
much laughter was excited by its immense size. Some Hon.
Members cried " Read, read," which increased the laughter.)
He had rather decline the reading of Renewed laughter. )
The amount of the subscription for that paper was 10 dollars
a-year, 40s. Two newspapers had been sent to him from Ca-
nada; on one side they were Canadian newspapers, but the
other side by some hocus pecus was converted into a ship-let-
rer, and he was charged 3d. for each. The system of convey-
ing newspapers by the London post was bad. Why was a
poor weaver to be charged 2d. if a newspaper was sent to him
only in the next street, while another paper was sent some
hundreds of miles into the country free of postage ? He
next deprecated the power which the Post-office possessed
of creating penny-posts in the country, and reverting
to the mail coaches, he observed that for expedition
they were quite second rate. He hoped the time would
come, now that there was a Whig Administration, when
the objections he was urging would be obviated, and when
the approach of the livery of the Royal mail would be hailed
as ensuring a vast accession of knowledge. The evidence
given by Mr. Gedby, the present Secretary to the Post-office
in Ireland—a reluctant witness, it should be remembered—
showed that the work required was equally well done by the
stage-coaches as by the mails. There were some mails in
this country, which went at the rate of ten and ten and a
half miles an hour : why should not all go at the same rate
He was sorry that when the Duke of Wellington had taken
so many offices on himself, he bad not taken the office of
Postmaster-General: if his Grace had done so, he (Mr.
Wallace) was sure that he would have introduced a great
change in these matters, and would have said that if such a
speed were accomplished in certain particular instances, it
should be accomplished throughout the system. He now
came to a subject of great importance, and one which called
for a speedy examination—the system of the steam-packets
belonging to the Post-office. In 1830, it had been reported
by the Commissioners that the outlay upon these steam-
packets had then amounted to 630,000/., with a dead loss of
300,000/., making no calculation for interest, which might be
taken at twelve and a half per cent. upon the cost. Up to
last year the outlay might be estimated at 1,300,000/. Some
curious information had also been furnished in respect to the
plan pursued in the building of their packets. At a certain
period nineteen of them had been built ; seven of them had
been built at Harwich at 'a cost of 23/. per ton, the other
twelve had been built in the Thames, at the rate of only 19!.
per ton. If this were not evidence of favouritism or jobbing,
it certainly looked to him something very much like it. A si-
milar system had been pursued in reference to the establishment
of stations for the repair of the packets. There existed beautiful
docks, well fitted for the purpose at Dublin ; but instead of using
them, an extensive establishment had been laid down at Holy-
head. Again, some of the vessels were taken to Portpatriek
—a poor miserable place—instead of being brought up to tie
Clyde, and why ? Because, if taken up the Clyde, the re-
pairs would have been executed at a much cheaper rate, ful:
then there would have been no job. The simple result o;
the whole system was this—that an immense sum had been
laid out upon the building of packets fur the Post-office,
which, if scld to-morrow, would not produce one half of the;,-
cost, and yet which could not bc kept at a loss of less then
100,000/. a-year. The Hon. Gent. then adverted to the eno,.-
mous amount of the emoluments of the captains of Post-office,
packets, in comparison with the pay of officers in the King's
navy, and contended that the services of as good men might
be obtained for one-leaf, or less than one-half, of the money
now expended. He then proceeded to allude to the advan-
tages which would arise from the establishment of a system of
check receipts, for securing the speedy and safe transmissio,
of money through the country : and said that it would have
the desirable effect of preventing the many serious losses
which now fell so heavily on individuals, in consequence of the
robberies which took place under the present defective sys-
tem. He contended that no desecration of the Sabbath would
he caused by the delivery of letters on Sunday. He saw no
reason, also, why the two departments of the Post-office—the
general and twopenny posts—should not be consolidated, and
the duties of the two establishments performed by the same
servants. If this alteration were made in the present system,
the public of London might, as the inhabitants of other cities
now do, receive their general letters and those of the two-
penny post through the same hands and at the same time.
The Honourable Member next alluded to what he called a
disgineful system of plundering the letter-carriers, through
the superannuation fund. Sonic payments were made by the
letter-carriers into this fund, which, if placed in a savings'
bank or annuity officer would yield a considerable income ; but
they were put off at the Post-office with a stipend miserably
small, and they could get no account of the money which wes
lodged for their benefit in the fund to which he had alluded.
He then read the resolutions which it was his intention tu
have submitted last year for the futuro regulation of the Post-
office, and which embraced all the changes to which the
Learned Gentleman had in the course of his speech referred
as being desirable to have effected. He concluded by moving
for "a Select Committee to inquire into the Management of the
Post-office."

The question having been put,
Mr. LABOUCHE RE rose and assured the House that lie
did not offer any objection to the course which the Hon. Mem-
ber for Greenock had proposed out of any disrespect for him,
or by way of disparaging the credit which he deserved from
the House and the country for the interest which he had taken
in, and the industry which he devoted to this very important
subject ; and still less did he object to it because he under-
valued the subject itself—a subject extremely important, not
merely as a question of revenue, but more as one which in-
volved the comfort and commercial interests of the whole corn-
munity.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Greenock had
laid down many principles, in the course of his speech, from
which he was far from differing. He quite agreed with him,
that with respect to the Post-office establishment, while he
believed that many departments of it were admirably conducted,
yet there were many departments of it which required the most
serious and searching investigation which could be bestowed on
their management. Speaking from the small degree of expe-
rience, and the short time during which lie had devoted his
attention to this subject since he became appointed one
of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the Public Offices, he
was bound to say, that the impression produced upon his mind
from that Inquiry, so far as it had hitherto been pursued, was,
that there was very great room for improvement in the system
itself; and in the different modes and regulations by which it
was carried into operation.—( Hear, hear.) He confessed,
that he did not consider the appointment of a Select Corn
mittee the only or the best mode of instituting an Inquiry into
the subject. The period of the Session at which this motion
was brought forward (though he believed that the lateness of
the period was by no means attributable to the Hon. Member
for Greenock)—the time, he repeated, at which it was pro-
posed to enter on this complicated and various Inquiry, em-
bracing such an immense number and such different details,
part only of which had been touched on in the speech of the
Hon. Member for Greenock, that, of itself, constituted no
slight obstacle on the ground of prudence to appointing a
Committee of Inquiry on this subject. But he must also ex-
press it as his opinion, that this was a subject which might be
much better investigated by a Commission composed of a few
persons, than by a Committee of that House, provided, of
course, that the House was willing to give credit to the Mem-
bers of that Commission for a determination to proceed in an

upright and honest manner to investigate the subject tho-
roughly, and to act fearlessly and honestly by the public in
the conduct of the Inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) He could only
say, that it was now but a year since the Commission on this
question had been instituted, and notwithstanding the changes
in the Government which had taken place within that period,
he thought he should be able to show that the Commissioners
had not been idle in the performance of the task which had
been allotted to them.—( Hear, hear.) One very important
result of the Inquiry had been, that a total change of system
had been effected in one branch, by determining that one
of the most improvident contracts ever entered into—he
meant the mail-coach contract—should cease on the sth of
January next.—( Hear, hear.) At this moment, indeed, the
matter was submitted to public competition, by the permission
(riven to send in tenders for the supply of coaches for the next
year. There had been under this contract a most absurd
charge for oiling and greasing of 2,4001. which was abolished,
leaving. ;!. for the future to be borne by those who furnished
the coaches. With respect to the facilities of communication
with foreign countries, the good effected by the labours of the
Commission on this ground was, that a Bill was now before
the House by which he had little doubt a more expeditious and
less expensive mode cu" exchanging letters and papers between
this and other countries would be effected. The Hon. Gen-
tleman, in speaking of the constitution of the office of Post-
master-General, had said that it was well deserving the consi-
deration of the Commissioners on the subject, whether it would
not be preferable that that office should be presided over by a
Commission, rather than by a Postmaster-General. He could
.assure the Hon. Gentleman that that was a question which
would be immediately taken into consideration by the Com-
mission, of which he (Mr. Labouchere) bad the honour to be
a Member. Their only object was to ascertain what would
be the best means of managing that great department of the
public service ; and their determination would be entirely un-
influenced by any considerations of patronage, or by any con-
sideration but of that which it was the most eligible course to
pursue. The Hon. Gentleman had talked of the private spe-
culations of persons connected with the Post-office. Now, cer-
tainly, nothing was more liable to suspicion than that the officers
of any public department should engage in private speculations.
Ve perfectly agreed with the Hon. Gentleman in the principle
which he had asserted on that point ; and it would he
the endeavour of the Commission to establish that principle in
practice. He must say, however, that he rather regretted the
harsh language and the strong expressions in which the Hon.
Gentleman had indulged, and that on very insufficient gretimls,
in speaking of several of the public servants connected with the
Post-office department--among others the Solicitor to the
Post-office. He ( Mr. Lahouchere) agreed with the Hon.
Gentleman, that there were many reasons why it was more
expedient that that gentleman, or any other placed in a similar
situation, instead of being paid for his services by a nominal
salary, made up by a Commission on the work he performed.
should be paid altogether by salary. But the Hon. Membee
;aid the gentleman who now held the office of Solicitor great
i...ijustice, if be supposed that he was influenced in the dis-
cheerge of his duty by pecuniary or unworthy motives; for to

him ( Mr. Labouchere) it was well known that that gentleman
had devoted much time to the consolidation of all the Post-
office laws—an object which he trusted would ere long be
effected. With respect to the present system of steam-packets,
the Hon. Gentleman had stated that it was well worthy of con-
sideration whether the system of contract or of establishment
was the better. The Commission would go into that investi-
Fation with every disposition to probe the matter to the utmost.
or all these reasons he trusted that the Hon. Gentleman
would not press his motion.

Lord L OWT H E R was favourable to the motion of the Hon.
Member for Greenock; and differed entirely from the Hon.
Gentleman who had just spoken as to the superiority of a Com-
mission to a Committee of the House of Commons in making
an Inquiry of this nature. He knew from experience that a
Commission was inefficient to grapple with sb strong a body
as the Post-office department. The returns made by the Post-
office were always defective in some most important points.
For instance, in their Return—respecting steam-packets, they
omitted the most important information, that which related to
the expense of the establishment, and communicated only the
tonnage of the vessels. With respect to the question whether
contracting for steam-packets, or having an establishment of
them, was the preferable course, he (Lord Lowther) had a
paper which showed the number of miles that the mails were
carried by contract, and the number of miles that they were
carried by the establishment ; and from that paper it distinctly
appeared that the contract system was nearly 100 per cent.
cheaper than the system of establishment. The cost of the
Steam-packet Post-office establishment between Dover and
Calais was 14,000/. a-year : and just before he ceased to be a
member of the Commission to which he had alluded, an offer
had been made to perform the work by contract for half that
sum. The question of fees was also one of great importance.
It was not that he grudged to any public servant the fair emo-
lument to which he was entitled. But whenever an attempt
had been made to secure better accommodation for the public
in this department of the public service, the fees had always
been found to stand in the way.—( Hear, hear.) Fees had
been abolished in every other public department, why not in
the Post-office ? With regard to the Solicitor of the Post-
office, he was quite willing to allow the merit of the gentle-
man who held that office ; but it was a fact that the expenses
of the department of the Post-office were greater than the ex-
penses of the same department in the Customs or in the Ex-
cise. It had been said, also, that there were no sinecure offices
in the Post-office. Now, it was a fact that a gent. who had
been appointed to the oNce of Receiver-general at the Post-
office, was immediately afterwards made Private Secretary to
the First Lord of the Treasury. Either the office of Receiver-
general should be abolished, or it should be made an efficient
office. Owing to some circumstance or other, the Post-office
revenue had not increased as it ought to have done. If in
1797, and at a less rate of postage, it amounted to 800,0001.
considering the increased activity of commerce; the natural
inference was, that it should he of much larger amount at pre-
sent than from the returns it appeared to be. Unquestion-
ably a vast sum was wasted in the establishment of steam-
packets, than which he was convinced no system could be more
impolitic. At Liverpool, the post office packets reduced their
fares to defeat the competition of individuals. The same took
place with the post-office packets to Ostend ; and when the
Commission to which he belonged endeavoured to obtain par-
ticular information on the subject, owing to the existence of a
combination they had found it exceedingly difficult to do so.
It was absurd on the part of the Post-office department to
maintain an establishment of steam-packets. Who was there
in the Post-office that could possibly know anything about
I nautical matters? The consequence of their ignorance was,
that they bought stores and other necessaries at random, and
at exorbitant prices. Convinced as he was, that a Committee
of the House of Commons would be more likely to get to the
tcrn of all these mysteries than a Commission, he should
support tie motion of the Hon. Member for Greenock.
Dr. BO WRING also suppoited the motion.

11:e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed,
that there was eo one whose opinions on this subject were en-
titled to so much respect as the Noble Lord, the Member for
Westmoreland. The Noble Lord possessed the two best ele-
ments of knowledge on the subject. He possessed a know-
eclf,,,e of the principle on which the office in question ought to
be conducted, and he possessed a knowledge of the fact as to
the manner is which it actually had been conducted. There
was no material difference of opinion between the Hon. Member
Fel- Greenock and his Majesty's Government. On the contrary,
the coerse which the latter had adopted showed that there was
great coincidence of opinion between them. By the measures
in progress, his Majesty's Government affirmed their convic-
tion of the existence of certain evils in the Post-office depart-
ment, and of the propriety of applying adequate means for the
removal of those evils. The only question was, how that de-
sirable objectt could best be effected. With respect to the general
rrinciple on 'A hich the Post-office department ought to be con-
ducted, the Noble Lord could not hold stronger or more decided
sentiments than he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did.
He was delighted to hear the Noble Lord acknowledge that it
was not because the existing practice was an old one, that it
should therefore be protected. He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) was unequivocally of opinion that having adopted
the prim iple of substituting salaries for fees in all the other
public departments, the same course ought to be pursued with
reference to the Post-office. But he must take the liberty- of
saying, that so long as from the first formation of Lord Grey's
Government, the question connected with steam-packets was
considered. One of the first acts which he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) had performed at the Treasury, was to make
an application to certain persons at Liverpool with respect to
a contract for conveying the mail by steam across St. George's
Channel. • He had received a communication which induced
him to anticipate that there was an inclination on the part of
the person in question to contract for the conveyance of the
mails by steam between Liverpool and Dublin. On again
coming into office, he had written to those persons to ask if
they would engage in the undertaking. Their answer was,
that circumstances had so changed since their last communica-
tion on the subject, and that the commerce between Liverpool
and Dublin had become so much more important to them than
any consideration connected with the Post- office, that they
were not disposed to embarrass themselves with any contract
respecting the mails. He would now revert to the real point
for the consideration of the House. It ought to be remembered
that the period at which they were discussing this question was
near the middle of July. Government had already issued a
Commission to inquire into the various important points of
the case, and were advancing in the career of improvement.
It. a Committee of the House of Commons were to be now
appointed, was it likely that that Committee would accomplish
the object in view so successfully as the Commission ?
his opinion, the better course would be, to allow the Com-
mission to proceed, and to lay their Report on the table of the
House in the early part-of the next session; and then, if the
Hon. Member for Greenock should be dissatisfied with that
Report, it would be competent to him to move the appointment
of a Committee, as a supplementary means of inquiry. But
he must protest against the Commission of his Majesty's pre-
sent Government being treated, as it appeared from the state-
ment of the Noble Lord that the Commission of the Govern-
ment to which the Noble Lord had belonged, had been
treated. The Noble Lord was a man of firm character ; but
really he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was at a loss to
understand how a high and responsible officer of State could,
now he was out of office, come down to the House and com-
plain of the stubbornness and obstinacy which, when he was
in office, had rendered it difficult for him, and those associated
with him, to extract information necessary for the public service.
Let his Hon. Friend make a Report of any officer, high or
low, in the department of the Post-office, who refused to give
any information which the Commission might think it desirable
to obtain, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would
!:;:nsplf to say, in the name of his Majesty's preseet
Government, that twenty- four hours should not pass without
the removal of that officer from his situation. Let the House
consider how much it was the practice to proceed with in-
quiries of every description connected with the public service,
by Commission. But if the practice which the Noble Lord
seemed to have adopted were generally to prevail--if, having
taken no step when in office to remove persons who dared to
withhold information, a public servant should, when out of
office, come down to complain of such conduct, that public ser-
vant would, in his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) opi-
nion, show that he had been guilty of a great neglect of duty.
On such a principle as that, his Majesty's present Government
would certainly not proceed. Their Commission should not
be defeated in its object by obstinacy or stubbornness. No
sinecure, whether in the Post-office, or any other department,
should stand in their way. He put it to his Hon. Friend,
therefore, the Member for Greenock, whether it would not be
better, for the present, to persevere in the course which had
been adopted. He must say, also, that he thought his Hon.
Friend ought to have used more caution in making personal
charges; especially when his motion was for inquiry. Into
those charges generally he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
would not enter. But he must say in justice to a Noble Friend
of his, whose name had been introduced by the Hon. Member
for Greenock, that no individual could be more anxious fully
to discharge his duty when at the head of the Post-office than
the Duke of Richmond. If, however, the House thought that
the Post-office system was such as to take away all responsibi-
lity from those on whom it ought to fall, then he would admit
that it was a fitting subject for inquiry ; indeed, for such an in-
quiry as was now actually going on under the Commission.
The Government and the House had but one object to insure
with respect to that department—the fullest and most satis-
factory execution of the duties it involved. This his Majesty's
Government were determined to attain ; but if his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Wallace) thought that Ministers were not sincere
in their declarations he would, of course, have the candour at
once to avow it. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by
repeating his request, that his Hon. Friend would wait till the
Report of the Commissioners was placed on the table of the
House.
Lord LOWTHER and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
explained.
Mr. HUME thought that the Noble Lord had made out a
case demanding inquiry. The Post Office had stood singly,
uncorrected in its abuses since Lord Wallace had the adminis-
tration of the department. The Hon. Gentleman then com-
plained of the loss that had occurred of 50,0001. a year in the
mere management of the steam boats, and stated that if any
public servant ever deserved to be discharged it was Sir
Francis Freeling, from the evasive way in which he had
answered the order of the House for Returns (the orders for
which the Hon. Gentleman read) connected with different
Post Office Departments. The Hon. Gentleman then said
that the appointment of a Committee to investigate the subject
would let daylight into it ; and concluded by deprecating any
interference with the views of his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, whom he considered to entertain
a mistaken view on the subject, adding that he had only lately
had occasion to complain of a shameful instance of mismanage-
ment of letters put into the post at Worthing for a.,place not
twenty-five miles distant having been transmitted to London
previous to delivery.
Mr. DENISON thought the subject important, as in six

months the present mail coach contract would expire. He
considered also there might be an advantage in a Commission
and Committee acting simultaneously, as the Commission
could report as it proceeded in its investigation.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG was willing to leave the subject in the
hands of his Majesty's present Ministers, but promised, if there
was no satisfactory result by the commencement of the next
session of Parliament he would support a motion to the effect
now proposed by the Hon. Member for Greenock.
Mr. WARBURTON saw no objection to the appointment
of the Commission.
Lord HO WICK said that the Duke of Richmond, when
Postmaster-General, had done everything that, as a member
of the Government, be could have done. Through his agency
much had been done already. He trusted, therefore, that the
Hon. Member for Greenock, to whom the House, the Govern-
ment, and the country were indebted for his mass of informa-
tion and lucid digest of the subject, would consent for the
present to forego his motion. It was said that the House had
the power of dealing with the question more completely than
a Committee, but that was,a mistake. The House could only
proceed on a clear case of malversation made out, and the pro-
cess would be tedious and difficult ; in the meanwhile, the
offender might avert the course of justice, and escape with
impunity. An inquiry by a Committee and by a Commission
could not be carried on simultaneously, and therefore if one
were to be granted the other would not be required.
Mr. WALLACE replied briefly. Under all the circum-
stances he was satisfied that a Committee was the best. Com-
missioners disagreed among themselves, and the public had
no guarantee for the correctness of their reports. After what
had been said on the subject, and the distinct pledge given by
his Majesty's Government, he should not press the question
further. The Hon. Member then obtained leave to withdraw
his motion.

MR. SEYMOUR—SERGEANT AT ARMS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought
forward a motion for an humble address to his Majesty, praying
him to sanction the Treasury Minute made in the case of Col.
Seymour, Sergeant at Arms of the House of Commons, on his
proposition to retire from the duties of that office. No indi-
vidual could be more qualified for the office than that gentle-
man, and few could have filled it with such honour to them-
selves and such complete satisfaction to the House. On the
6th of June he had addressed a letter to the Speaker, stat-
ing his inability to discharge any longer the duties of his
situation, and soliciting a certain arrangement respecting his
retiring pension ; or, rather, a continuance of a portion of
his salary. The sum suggested by him was much less than
what the Treasury would have allowed him in the ordinary
course of superaunuations, and what he would be entitled to
under these circumstances.—( Hear.) The arrangement he
suggested imposed no additional expense upon the country, as
it enabled the Government to pay his successor at the reduced
salary fixed for the office, while it ultimately afforded a saving
when that event, which he was sure the House would deplore
as much as he did, should happen, the decease of Colonel
Seymour. It had been the usual course, when the salaries or
remuneration of officers of the House were in question, to have
them decided by Commissioners appointed for that purpose,
of which the Speaker was the head, virtute officii. But he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought it better to bring
the present the case before the House for two reasons ; be-
cause in the first place, he wished the House should have the
complete control over their own officers; and because he was
convinced that it would be much more gratifying to the
gentleman in question to be made aware of the appreciation in
which the House held his zeal and fidelity. The proposition
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) meant to make to the
House was according to the strict precedent established in the
ease of Mr. Colman (as we understood), a predecessor of
Colonel Seymour in the office of Sergeant-at-Arms. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then proposed a humble address to
his Majesty, praying him to enable the Commissioners of the
House to reward adequately the long and faithful services of
Colonel Seymour.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUME thought the proposition most unobjectionable,
and one which every Hon. Member should assent to.—( Hear,
hear.) Nothing could be more honourable to Mr. Seymour
than his conduct on the present occasion, except the manner
in which he had always discharged the arduous duties of his
office.—( Hear. )
Sir M. W. RIDLE Y took that opportuity of expressing
his individual sense of the services rendered to the House by
the gentleman in question.—( Hear.) He had been an old and
faithful servant, and had succeeded his father who held the
same situation, with equal honour to himself, and equal advan-
tage to the House —( Hear.) Any respect which could be
paid, or any remuneration which could be made him, for his
services, was well deserved and richly merited.
The motion was carried in the affirmative, amidst strong
expressions of approbation on the part of every Hon. Member
present.
Mr. BROTHERTON then moved the adjournment of the
House.

Mr. S. MACKENZIE complained that he could find no
opportunity of bringing forward the motion he had long since
Placed on the paper of the House, but the Hon. Member spoke
so indistinctly that we could not catch the nature of the mo-
tion, if he mentioned it.

The Assizes (Ireland) Bill was read a third time.
The Glasgow Universities Regulation Bill was brought in,
read a first time, and ordered to be read a second.

On the motion of Mr. BROTIIERTON the House adjourned at
Half-past One o'Clock.

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS.

We were enabled to procure, late last night, a copy
of the Bill brought in by Lord Morpeth, on Tuesday,
for the regulation of Ecclesiastical Revenues, and the
promotion of Religious and Moral Instruction in Ire-
land. This Bill is divided into two parts—the one
having reference to the adjustment of tithes, by the
substitution of a land-tax for the tithe composit►on ;
and the other part providing for that appropriation,
without which the House of Commons has solemnly
declared that no adjustment can be final and satisfac-
tory. Sir Robert Peel has given notice that on the
Speaker leaving the Chair, in order that the House
may resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill, he
shall move that it be an instruction to the Committee
to separate these two parts, and so to divide it into two
distinct Bills. He has further declared that his ob-
ject in making this proposition is not that he and the
House may, with the more convenience to themselves,
discuss the separate branches of the measure, but that
he and his party may altogether defeat one of them
—namely, that which enacts that, after amply pro-
viding for the spiritual wants of the Protestants,
the surplus revenues of the Church Establish-
ment in Ireland, shall be devoted to the moral
and religious education of the people of that country,
without distinction of faith. Sir Robert Peel, there-
fore, in effect proposes to rescind the resolution of the
House of Commons. He proposes that the House
shall, in the face of a former resolution, now stultify
itself by passing a Bill foi the adjustment of tithes in
such a way as it has already pronounced can be neither
satisfactory nor final. We can easily estimate the re-
spect which the Right Hon. Baronet seems to enter-
for the body from whom he expects a compliance
like this—a compliance which would rival the ►most
distinguished of his own tergiversations ; but as all his
arguments against the principle of appropriation have
before proved ineffective, and as nu attempt has yet
been made to attack the measure of the Government
founded upon that principle, without the most flagrant
falsifications of its provisions, we deem it sufficient here
to repeat most authoritatively, because we do so in the
language of the Bill itself, a refutation of the particu-
lar objections which the enemies of the measure have
ventured to urge against it. The most important of the
objections is, that it leads to the wholesale suppression
of the cure of souls in no less than 860 parishes in Ire-
land ; and this was the one particularly relied on by
Sir Robert Peel on Tuesday evening. Others of the
Tory party, and among them Sir H. Hardinge, ob-
jected to the 5/. clause as a positive insult to the Pro-
testant Clergy, whilst all the Tories would persuade us
that they believe the measure must inevitably tend to
diminish the influence of the Protestant religion in
Ireland. We shall therefore confine ourselves to these
points, and shall prove that the measure does not sup.
press the cure of souls, that it does not degrade the
Protestant Clergy, and that so far from diminishing, it
is calculated greatly to increase the sphere of their ac-
tion. And first, with respect to the suppression of the
cure of souls, the Bill expressly provides, that " When-
soever there shall appear by such Report (the Report
of the Commissioners of Public Instruction) to be in
any parish, any members of the said Established
Church, and it shall likewise appear by such Report
that there is a place of worship duly consecrated,
and a resident officiating minister in such parish,
it shall not be lawful, in case the Church thereof
shall be so sequestered, to commit the ecclesi-
astical duties and the cure of souls within such
parish to the incumbent or officiating minister
of any neighbouring parish ; but in every such
case a separate curate shall be nominated and
licensed for such parish in manner hereinbefore
provided." It is therefore clear that the resident offi-
ciating clergyman is not to be removed from any parish
in which he is now to be found ; and if we further
show that parishes containing but a single Protestant,
and which have now no officiating clergyman► and no
place of divine worship, are under this Bill to be pro-
vided with both these advantages, we feel that we have
wholly disproved the allegation of Sir Robert Peel,
that the Bill tends to the suppression of the cure of
souls. The Bill, in its 58th clause, provides that
upon the, voidance of any parish, the Protestant inha-
bitants of which, according to the Report of the. Com-

missioners of Public Instruction, did not exceed fifty,
the revenues of such parish are to vested in the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners, as sequestrators ; and in a
subsequent clause it is provided that the ecclesiastical
duties, that is to say, the cure of souls in such parish,
are to be committed either to a neighbouring minister
or to a separate curate, to be specially nominated
by the ordinary. In cases where separate curates
are appointed, they are to receive an annual sti-
pend not exceeding 100/. ; they may occupy the
glebe house, and enjoy glebe lands, to the value of
25/. a year, if there be such in the parish. But
should the clergyman of any parish have the du-
ties of an adjoining one confided to him, he shall
receive, in addition, a stipend varying from 101. to
501. If, however, there should be no Protestant what-
ever in the parish, then, with a view to keeping alive,
as it were, the established religion in that parish, a
neighbouring clergyman is to have ecclesiastical autho-
rity within it, and is to be paid, in acknowledgment of
his jurisdiction, a sum which the framers of the Bill
have fixed at 5/. Under the Church Temporalities Act
it was provided that if divine worship had not been
performed in any parish for three years preceding
February, 1833, the appointment of an incumbent
was to be suspended, and the revenues of the Church
sequestered, no matter how numerous the Protestant
inhabitants of the parish might be. In the case of
such suspension a nominal sum, the sum of 4/. was to
be given to the clergyman of some adjoining parish, to
do that for which this Bill, upon the same principle,
gives the higher sum of 5/. ; and it is a singular fact,
that under Lord Stanley's Act, the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners have so suspended a parish containing not
less than 80 Protestants. The Bill of Lord Morpeth
will remove that suspension, and restore the cure of souls
to a parish in which Lord Stanley had agreed to
suppress it. Lord Stanley's Act provided for the
sequestration of the revenues of the Church in certain
parishes, but it did not, like the measure originating
with his Majesty's present Ministers, take care that
every parish having a single Protestant should enjoy
the benefit of an officiating clergyman, and should also
have a Church or some suitable place of divine worship
within his own parish for that single member of the
Protestant communion. We cannot conclude this
hasty notice of a vitally important measure, which might
be described as truly one for the extension of the Pro-
testant religion of Ireland, without stating that if the
altered circumstances of any parish shall, in the judg-
ment of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, require the
renewal of the sequestration, the Lord Lieutenant is
empowered to adopt the recommendation of the Com-
missioners, and carry it into full effect. These Com-
missioners consist of three Archbishops, three Bishops,
of the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice, and
of two Lay Members, the one appointed by the Crown,
and the other chosen by the Primate and the Arch-
bishop of Dublin ; and we need not add, that in
such keeping the interests of the Protestant religion
are not likely toPliaiiitglected.—Morning Chronicle.
A sense of 'insy.ce and humanity induces us once
more to return to the debate in the House of Commons
on the subject of poor laws for Ireland. Disgusted as
we felt at the course which the debate had taken, and
anxious as we felt, not unnaturally, to avoid the irrita-
tion which cannot fail to be created by a moment's re-
flection on the state of the Irish poor, we might, per-
haps, have consulted our own peace of mind, but that
common charity forbids us to rest while thousands of
otn fellow creatures are famishing for want of the com-
mon necessaries to support life, deserted by those who
should be their protectors, but who prefer indulging
in acrimonious attacks upon us, because we have
pointed out to the people of Ireland their gross negli-
gence of their duty, in not attempting to rescue from
starvation those who look to them with confidence for
an assertion of their rights. We will for. a moment en-
deavour to suppress our feelings of indignation while
calling upon Mr. O'Connell to stand forth, in the face
of his country, and justify the gross libels which he on
Wednesday night poured forth on his unfortunate
countrymen. Was it not enough that he should desert
them in their battle for existence? Was it not suffi-
cient he should put forth arguments destructiVe of their
claim for common sustenance, while giving an equi-
vocal support to a Bill which his arguments went to
annihilate? Was not this enough, without holding them
up as a set of beings so utterly beyond all hope of civi-
lization that they would turn upon the hands that fed
them ? We had thought, albeit Mr. O'Connell
chooses to represent us as enemies to Ireland, that the
Irish character was composed of more estimable mate-
rials. We did suppose that gratitude was one of their
characteristics, and least of all could we suppose, as
asserted by Mr. O'Connell, that if once the claim for
relief was establiShed, any refusal to grant relief would
be the signal for burning down the workhouses. It
has been our fortune, or misfortune, no matter which,
to have heard Ireland libelled, wickedly and unjustly
libelled before now, and thus libelled for party pur-
poses ; but we unfeignedly declare that all the libels
which were ever poured upon that country fell short in
acrimony—bitter, biting acrimony—of that which
Mr. O'Connell gave utterance to in the heat of his
antipathy to poor laws. We now place Mr. O'Connell
upon his defence ; and allowing the people of Ireland
,
to be the judges, we would contest tne issue as to
whether the Hon. and Learned Member or ourselves
were the truer friends of Ireland or of the Irish people.
To turn from a matter which will rest between Mr.
O'Connell and the people of Ireland, we must just no-
tice an article in the Globe of last night, which treats
as silly our notion that every man has a claim for sup-
port upon the soil which gave him birth. Reformers
of England, look to this !—Liberals of England, listen
to the Globe advocating the doctrine that the people
have no right to live, except at the discretion of the
Lords of the soil I Prepare your necks for the yoke--
prepare to bow in submission to the landlords of the
country for permission to exist. You have no rights
but what they, in their mercy, choose to concede. If,
through their legislation, you should be unable to ob-
tain employment, your only claim, according to the
Globe—your only positive right—the only pretension
which you may undisputedly call your own is that of
starving, unpitied, uncared for, and unnoticed—com-
forting yourselves with the reflection that you could
not help it—that for you " there was no place at Na-
ture's board I" Will the Globe—will the patrons of
the Globe—will Mr. Spring Rice dare openly to follow
out the principle which is thus by inference proclaimed ?
Let us understand our rulers. Does the liberal Whig
Government mean to tell the people of England that
those only who have property have rights, and that
those who have none have not even the right to live ?
The Globe sneers at the poet who regretted the pass-
ing away of an age which, by comparison, might justly
be termed the golden—
A time there was ere England's griefs began
When every rood of ground maintained its man."
Had the poet, however, lived to the present day, his
regret would have been turned to execration against
those who, with a rapacity formerly unknown, sweep
to themselves the produce of a thousand roods, leaving
the nine hundred and nine-nine to all the horrors of
utter destitution. The Globe calls itself liberal, and so
does the Whig Government, of which it is the organ,
and yet both of them would deprive the people of a
right which hitherto has never been disputed, and in
doing so, affect to believe that such right had never
been possessed. Let the Reformers of England lOok
to this—they may differ with us in opinion upon many
topics which we have advocated honestly, but we chal-
lenge them to show any instance where the practical
welfare of the mass of the community was involved, in
which we have not been the earnest, honest, and un-
flinching advocate of that community. Can the Globe
say this ? If it think it can, let it at once boldly
assert and defend the, principle that the landed aristo-
cracy of the country have the right, as soon as they
have possessed themselves of the power, to starve at
their discretion the labouring population of the empire.
Morning Herald.
The most remarkable event that has occurred in the
House of Commons for months past is the favourable
reception given on Wednesday evening to a proposition
made by Sir Richard Musgrave for introducing poor-
laws into Ireland. At the same time we must take
the freedom to observe, that so far as a practical or
intelligible system of relief to the suffering poor is
concerned, nothing can be more vague, or unsatis-
factory, than the speech by which the Hon. Baronet
prefaced his motion for the second reading of the Bill.

It is from the observations of Mr.-S. Rice, known to '
be unfavourable, as we believe is Lord Lansdowne,
to the principle of an Irish poor-law, that we collect
the provisions of that brought in by Sir R. Musgrave
to contemplate relief for paupers—lst, above 60 years
of age ; 2d, orphans under 14 ; 3d, sick, diseased,
lame, maimed, blind, deaf, and dumb ; to which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer added—though, as it
appears to us, with more questionable wisdom, that is,
where a poor law only was under discussion—that he
would tax estates universally for the education of young
children. We shall not be suspected of undervaluing
this last object recommended by the Chancellor of
I the Exchequer, but shall merely state our impression,
that it belongs .nore properly to the department of na-
tional education than of assistance to the destitute. A
relief prescribed by law for the destitute poor of Ire-
land has long been a favourite and earnest object with
this journal—one which we have often, and for many
years declared to be indispensable—no matter how
many improvements might be effected in the Popery.
laws or tithe-laws, or in any other branch of Irish ju-
risprudence, we have ever considered that to be the
most important of all which directly involves the rela-
tion between property and poverty throughout the
island. What did Catholic emancipation accomplish
for the relief of the Irish peasant ? It placed some 30
or 40 individuals of the Popish communion within the
walls of Parliament. But for the poor—for the dis-
tressed—for the naked—for the starving—what was
done by Catholic emancipation ? Literally—rigorously
nothing. And how for would any modification or any
reduction—how far would the utter annihilation of that
whole fund, whether by the name of tithe or rent-
charge, which has hitherto maintained, or is ostensibly
destined to maintain hereafter, the Protestant clergy of
Ireland—how far, we say, would that go towards
alleviating the miseries of the Irish poor ? What
direction would that stream of revenue take when
cut off from the maintenance of the Clergy ? Into
what channel has it really been diverted since tithe
ceased to be collected by the Clergyman, or by others,
for his use ? Why, it rushes, as to a centre of
gravity, into the landlord's pocket. No poor man,
from East to West of Ireland, is the better for the
change by a single shilling. No poor man has an
extra pig within his sty, or an extra potato for his
children. It is all a vile and despicable mystification.
Tithes were never paid by the poor in Ireland or else-
where. They were a deduction from that rent which,
but for them, the landlord would have obtained for his
acres ; and, to make up the rent-charge henceforth
nominally payable by the landlord, an extra value will
he laid upon the land equivalent to the amount of tithe
about to be commuted. It is all a wretched delusion
from first to last—a dream, that anything has been
done for the poor, by playing off emancipation one
year, and abolishing tithe some five or six years
-afterwards—by the first of which a certain portion
of Roman Catholics, answering to the name of
gentlemen, have acquired some new privileges—as
by the second, landlords generally have been ena-
bled to intercept the income of the Clergyman and
transfer it to himself. Words are all-powerful among
an ignorant and brutalized race of men. Tithe is
called an oppression, though it will smell no less un-
savoury under the name of rent. O'Connell is called
" a Liberator," never having moved his little finger to
assuage the sufferings, to mend the fortunes, or to
promote the interests or happiness of any human being
but Mr. Daniel O'Connell. With regard to a Poor
Law for Ireland, the " Liberator" of the poor has at
all times, until very lately, avowed himself the mortal
enemy of that measure. Finding, however, the com-
mon sense of the case, and the tide of public feeling
too strong for him, he has more lately disclaimed his
unpopular error, and confessed himself a convert to
the Poor Law principle ; in this, however, differing
from other converts, inasmuch as the zeal of the
Learned Gentleman has not yet been conspicuous on
behalf of his new opinions. Let any one read his
speech on Sir R. Mulgrave's motion, and then say
how sincere is Mr. O'Connell's desire to promote
the introduction of Poor Laws into Ireland. He
spoke indeed against Mr. Richards of Knaresborough
—he spoke against the late Ministry—against the
everlasting misgovernment of Ireland under the Eng-
lish sway, as if she had ever been otherwise than
savagely governed under her own native domination,
no one of which topics bad any thing to do with the
debate. He railed moreover against the Scotch poor-
law, and against the English poor-law, and finished by
abusing the embryo Irish poor-law, as being a source
of increased party feuds in Ireland, which the learned
agitator has always so diligently laboured to tranquil-
lize. Indeed, while the learned person conjured up
his stock bugbear of tithe whereon to vent his viru-
lence, he used an expression which, to speak vulgarly,
" let the cat out of the bag," as to his real sentiments
on the subject of an Irish poor-law ; for, says he,
" the Hon. Gentleman," we forget whom he meant,
" would give the people of Ireland a poor-law, arid
refuse them juctice ; they asked for bread, and he gave
them a stone"—an image, certainly, the least appro-
priate that ever was resorted to—for his abolition of
tithe is to the poor a mere stone, whereas there
is bread in poor-laws. However, we do not quarrel
with the timidity or slowness, albeit disguised
under the term " circumspection," which Honour-
able Members—Ministers among them—have evinced
on this occasion. In the same ratio in which poor-
laws are important, they ought undoubtedly to be pre-
pared with prudence, and perhaps it may be as well to
begin by limiting -their application to the relief of old
we, sickness, infancy, &c. As for the plan of making
a poor-rate voluntary, or at least contingent on the
very precarious condition of ten persons in the same
parish subscribing of their own accord in the first
instance, we are loth to say all we think upon the sub-
ject, but verily it is a modest and marvellously humble
beginning. The one grand master-principle which
ought to govern every poor-law system for Ireland, is
to force the landlords, by a sense of their own personal
interest, to watch over and provide for the well-being
of their poorer tenantry. If you effect not this, you
may give up the whole scheme as hopeless ; and this
will never be accomplished by leaving the relief of the
poor at the option of any given number of individuals.
Suppose no ten persons are found to subscribe in a
parish where all or most of the proprietors who could
afford it happened to be non-residents, not caring one
straw for the people, and unwilling to subscribe at all ;
what then becomes of your power to lay on a poor-
rate ? and where is the efficacy of Sir Richard Mus-
grave's Bill ? Times.
A very important Bill was read a third time last
night in the House of Commons by a very small ma-
jority—a majority so small, when regarded in compa-
rison with the importance of the question which it de-
cided, so far at least as the House of Commons is
concerned, that it can hardly claim to exercise a very
decided influence upon the opinion of the country.
The measure to which we allude is the Bill of Mr.
Ewart to allow Counsel to make speeches in defence of
prisoners on their trial. This seems to us to be one
of those propositions (and there are many of the same
character, which have recently engaged much public
attention) that are sure to acquire a certain kind of
popularity on account of a plausibility merely super-
ficial. To say that Counsel shall be permitted to make
a speech for the prosecution of a criminal charge, and
that Counsel shall not be permitted to make a speech
in defence of the accused, seems on the first view of
it a monstrous and revolting proposition. And it
would really be so if the question related to the in-
stitution of an original system of criminal jurispru-
dence for a new community. The facts, however, are,
that the proposition, monstrous as, prima facie, it
may appear, does but express the established and
long-tried system of English criminal jurisprudence ;
that this system has not been found incapable in prac-
tice of attaining, with at least tolerable certainty and
correctness, the objects which criminal jurisprudence
everywhere has in view ; and that, if it have erred at
all, it has certainly not generally erred on the side of
severity towards the accused. Such being, as we be-
lieve it is, the acknowledged state of the facts, it is no
longer discreet, or even rational, to insist much upon
an inconsistency or anomaly, which, however startling
the terms in which it must be expressed, has not after
long experience of its effects, been found to produce
practical or substantial inconvenience or injustice. The
law which deprives prisoners of the assistance of the
eloquence of the Bar
_:for it is of the eloquence of the