The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-28 00:00:00

TH.E SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, AUGUST' 28; 1835.

why those amendments should be adopted. In proposing and
carrying these amendments they had, he thought, justly, poll-
tidy, and wisely, refused to give a character of vindictiveness
to a measure which was intended to be one of conciliation.—

( Hear.) They had refused to make it a measure of spoliation
and persecution. Early in the discussions upon this measure
—even before it had been brought up to their Lordships' House
—they were told that it must be passed ; and at the same time
it viits very significantly intimated that by that House it could
notbe passed, because it would destroy the interest of the Con-
servatives in every one of the towns in which the municipal go-

vernment should be reformed. He believed all the apprelien-,,
sions upon that point to be greatly exaggerated. When he
had asked questions with respect to them, he had never
received answers satisfactory to him, or showing that the ap-
prehensions were well founded. But this he felt sincerely,
and with a perfect conviction of its truth, that the strength
. .

of their party existed in supplying defects where they were
proved to 'exist, and in reforming abuses where they were
proved to be disadvantageous to the people.—( Hear, hear.)
They had no interest distinct from others. Their strength
.

rested on the establishment of good and quiet government
everywhere, and in the satisfaction of the people with that
government.—( Hear, bear.) No man could be more anxious
than he was, that that House should act in accordance with

the prevailing sentiments of the House of Commons. But it
was often difficult to do so when measures were proposed to
the House of Commons, not because they were in accordance
with the feelings of both Houses, but because they were ac-
ceptable to the feelings of an extreme party in one House.—
(Cheers.) When that was done, it was difficult indeed for
the House of Lords to do its duty, and at the same time to
conform to the wishes of the other branch of the Legislature.
—(Hear, hear.) He knew not why the House of Commons
should refuse to accept the Bill pis it then stood. It was alto-
gether in accordance with the principles of the Bill that had
been sent up to them. - _ _

Lord HOLLAND said when this Bill was brought from
the other House of Parliament, it embodied a simple, plain
and intelligible principle, and professed to have a two-fold
object—first, to secure quiet and good government to the
towns and cities of England and 'Vales; second, to satisfy
the inhabitants of those cities and towns that their affairs were
henceforward likely to be duly, honestly, and judiciously ad-
ministered. The means by which it was originally attempted
to attain these ends appeared to him to be these—by granting
to the inhabitant rate-payers the right of electing those who
were to administer their local affairs, and by giving them a
responsible instead'of an irresponsible Government. The No-
ble I4ord who bad just sat down had attempted to give them a
description of the principle and details of the fill they had
then before them ; but what a change was there between the
Bill as it then stood, and the Bill which was brought up to
them from the House of Commons ! Look now at the Bill,
and see the difference. Every one of the principles originally
inrosved in the Bill had either been tampered with or actually
subverted and destroyed. It was true that there was one part
of it preserved. They had preserved the form and semblance
of pcpular representation, but all the advantages that could
possibly attend popular representation had been carefully
lopped off. The Noble Lord (Ellenborough), begging the
question, said that he and his friends, by the course they had
taken, had secured the approbation and affection of the inha-
bitants of the towns to which these amendments applied. He
thought that the Noble Lord was mistaken, and that those
who were dissatisfied before were more likely to be dissatisfied
and discontented now. He (Lord Holland) held the qualifi-
cation clause, and the clause continuing certain offices for
life, to be most objectionable. With respect to the first, he
must acknowledge that the evils of the qualification, or rather
of the disqualification (as he should presently show it to be)
had in some degree been mitigated and corrected by the addi-
tional amendment which had been appended by the Noble and
Leattned Earl. The Noble Lord had himself admitted that all
pecnniary qualifications had hitherto proved utterly inefficaci-
ous. Upon what ground then, did he introduce such a quali-
fication into the present Bill. Their Lordships must recollect
that it was the right of every elector to be himself deemed
eligible to fill the office to which he elected another, unless
that right were specifically taken away from him by statute.
That principle had been distinctly laid down by Lord Thurlow
and Mr. Fox, in the case of Mr. Horne Toblte. What was
the effect of the clause introduced into this Bill ? To dis-
qualify five-sixths of the electors in every corporate town in
the kingdom. Such a proposition as that had never before
beer submitted to a deliberate assembly in that ktugdom. He
objected in the next place to those alterations which made
aldermen and town-clerks, aldermen and town-clerks for
These alterations had completely cltanged the character
and principle of the Bill as sent up to them from the House
of Commons ; and he was surprised to hear the Noble Lord
say that every thing they had done was in strict consistel cy
with the principle of the Bill. With the exception of the
form of popular elections there was really nothing else left.
He (Lord Holland) was anxious, therefore, to protest against
what, the Noble Lord called the amendments which had been
effet ted by the other side of the House. He did not wish to
go through the whole of them, or to take up the gauntlet
which the Noble Lord had throes down, with respect to
what he called a minor amendment—he meant that relating
to the right of Dissenters to vote on the distribution of Church
patronage. Being upon Ids lees, however, he wished to put
one riestion to the Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst), in
refei cnce to that amendment. He knew the Noble and
Learned Lord to be a great artist in these matters, hut,
when the-Noble and Learned Lord said, in the clause in ques-
tion, that no person lend,' vote for the distribution of the
Church patronage vested in the hands of the Corporations ex-
cept those who were members of the Church of England, be
begged to ask the Noble and Learned Lord, who was a
member of the Church of England, what was the Noble
and Learned Lord's/definition of a member of the Church
of England? Was it a man who had signed the 39 Ar-
ticles? Did the Noble and Learned Lord mean that in
every instance before a man voted he should be asked whe-
ther he had signed the 39 Articles? If that question were
put to every layman he believed the boasted number of the
members of the Church of England would be found to be
very much diminished. It had fallen to his lot to know
many very pious and serious members of the Church of Eng-
land who would not sign the Thirty-nine Articles. It
should be remembered that in signing the Thirty-nine Ar-
ticles a man sign-d not only the Articles themselves, but
the Athanasian Creed and the Homilies. Now he had no
hesitation in saying, though a sincere member of the Esta-
blished Church. that neither of those things would he sign ;
nor did he think that any lawyer could sign the Homily of
Obedience. He contended, therefore, that subscription to the
Thi, ty-nine Articles did not accurately define the member of
the Established Church. Then how did the Noble and
Learned Lord propose to find him out ? What test had he ?
If be said that it should consist in attending divine service,
then they fell back at once to all the old acts of persecution.
He rhould like to hear the Noble and Learned Lord explain
himself upon the point.
Lord LYNDHURST was extremely desirous, with respect
to the clause to which the Noble Baron bad alluded, to fortify
himself with an authority for which he conceived the Noble
Baron would feel a deep respect. He would first read the
words, and then state the authority. " I can state with the
greatest certainty that the Dissenters of England do not as-
pire to any of the patronage of the Church, but are ready to
follow the example set them by the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin, and to agree that Church patronage should remain
in the hands of those to whom it particularly belonged—the
members of the Established Church." On the same occasion
another person made use of these words These are livings
in the gift of certain Corporations, and under this Bill those
livings may be disposed of by the members of a Church to
which they are not attached. Now, I belong to a certain per-
suasion in Ireland, which never had a title to share in the gift
of such advowsona ; and of this we do not complain. I think
that the power of making these nominations should be given
to the members of the Established Church." He thought the
Noble Baron would admit that these authorities were entitled
to some weight, when he stated that the first was a Dissenter
—the Hon. Member for Leeds; and the other, the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin.
Lord HOLLAND said that the Noble and Learned" Lord
had entirely mistaken his question. He did not contend that
it wee absolutely right that a man professing one religion
should bestow a benefice upon a man professing another ; but
he seid that in an act of Parliament in which they laid down
the maxim that no man should vote upon a particular subject,
except members of the Church of England—the lawyer who
laid down that maxim was bound to show that he had some
legal means of determining who was a member of the Church
of England and who was not. The very mention of the name
of Mr. O'Connell seemed to divest the Noble Lords opposite
Of all power of understanding. Did the Noble and Learned
Lorci suppose that Mr O'Connell, for whose great talents and
some of whose virtues, as far as he knew him, he bad a high
respect—( Hear, hear )—Noble Lords might cheer, but he
could not help saying that the manner in which Mr.- O'Con-
nell's name was received in that House was calculated to do
him very little harm. He still wished the Noble and Learned
Lord to answer the question he bad put to him.
Tne Earl of HA DDINGTON would not enter, with the
Noble Baron who had just sat down, into any disdussion as
to the character, the talent, or the virtues of Mr. O'Connell,
nor would he attempt to counteract the effect of those pane-
gyrics which he bad thought fit to pronounce on the great
Uitator of Ireland—the great apostle .of the repeal of the
nion ; but he felt himself entitled to use the authority of
that Honourable and Learned Gentleman, and also of the
Honourable Member for Leeds, in support of the 'clause
which provided that the church patronage vested in corpora-
tions should be distributed by members of the Church alone.
His Noble Friend thought the clause not sufficiently strin-
gent. He (Lord Haddington) was satisfied that it was suffi-
ciently stringent. If an individual who was notoriously a
Dissenter offered himself, his notoriety would be sufficient to
prevent his voting. If he declared that he was a Dissenter,
the clause would prevent his voting. His Noble Friend had
asserted that all who paid rates should have votes in the
boroughs for members of the town-council. If that were a
just proposition, then the Reform Act was still unjust. Their
Lordships had left the qualification of voters as it came from
the House of Commons. His Noble Friend asserted that the
Bill, as it stood, would do nothing. Of what was it that the
people complained? That they had no influence in the elec-
tion of the magistrates, and' that the present system in corpo-
rate towns was a system of self-election which ought to be
put on end to. Now he would confidently ask their Lord-
ships if the system of self-election in corporate towns was nct
as completely put an end to by the Bill as it then stood, as it
was by the Bill when it was sent up by the House of Com-
mons to their Lordships? All rate-payers were to vote.
One-third of the town-council was to go out every year, so
that ;here Would be an annual and a popular election. But
his Noble Friend said, that although they had left popular
election, they had taken away everything which could
render popular election valuable. His Noble Friend main-
tained that the members of the to”-council ought not to

be required to possess any qualification ; for that those who
had a right to vote for the election of others, had a right to
be elected themselves. Was that assertion made in Eng-

land? V Was not qualification now necessary by law in many
cases ? Were not Members of the House of Commons re-

quired to be qualified in a particular manner? There was no-
thing new in the principle of qualification which had been in-
troduced into the Bill; for it was according to the strictest
analogy with the qualifications he had alluded to. His Noble
Friend exclaimed, " Don't talk to me about qualification ; this
is disqualification." But was not all qualification in that point
of view, disqualification? Did it not necessarily exclude per-
sons who were not qualified? But his Noble Friend was of
opinion that their Lordships had neutralised all the benefits
which might otherwise have been derived from the Bill; for
that a fourth part of the town-council were to retain their si-
tuations for life. But what were the objects of this provision ?
Stability, peace, the preservation of good feelings. A town-
council entirely and annually elected, by the rate-payers out of
the rate-payers, would form a republic so democratical and
turbulent, that most injurious consequences must flow from its
establishment.

Lord DENMAN felt it to be his duty to state, as fully
and fairly as circumstances would allow him, bis opinions on
the Bill as it came from the House of Commons, and as it
now stood. In the first place, however, he must express bis
satisfaction that with whatever angry feelings the issuing of
a commission to inquire into the Municipal •Corporations had
been originally treated, those feelings had subsided ; and it
was now generally allowed to be idle to doubt the validity of
that commission. In fact, recollecting that shadier commis-
sions had frequently been issued during the last century, to
say that the commission in question was invalid, or that it
ought to be treated with contempt, appeared to him to be so
disrespectful towards the Crown, and so obstructive of all
useful inquiries, that he felt happy in the conviction that he
only repeated the universal opinion when .he said that such
sentiments were no longer entertained. He felt happy in
this conviction, because he really did think that if encourage-
ment were given to an opposition to such a commission, the
injurious operation that might take place with reference to
inquiries that any future Government might find it expe-
dient to institute, would be lamentable and melancholy. The
second topic on which he would touch was the character of
the commissioners themselves. And here he must say, that
in the situation which he had the honour to hold, and which
gave him an opportunity of knowing those gentlemen, the
observations which had been made upon them had given him
the greatest pain. These observations were entirely un-
founded. He had the honour of knowing many of those
gentlemen intimately, and others from their practice at the
bar. They had been described as entertaining extreme opi-
nions on political subjects. Such an imputation was more
applicable to the Noble and Learned person by whom it
had been made. For that Noble and Learned Lord he
had a great respect ; he was indebted to him personally for
a long succession of kindnesses ; if it was a calumny to de-
clare that he had changed his opinions on such subjects, he
(Lord Denman) could only declare that he uttered it with
perfect good faith, and that be believed that it was the
perfect conviction of all who knew that Noble and Learned
Lord. He did not mean to say any thing disparaging of
'that Noble and Learned Lord, but ho must observe that it
was very hard upon members of the bar to be so warmly
attacked in a quarter in which they had a right to expect
protection and favour. The Commissioners were men of
learning, they were men of science, they were men of consis-
tent opinions, they were men of honourable sentiments, who
had undertaken the duty entrustedito them for the purpose,
and with the determination of performing it honestly, to their
King and country ; and who, he in conscience believed, had
'so performed it. He did not wish to trespass longer upon
their Lordships, on this part of the subject, or he should be
desirous to refer more particularly to some of the individuals
of whom the Commission was composed. Many of them he
knew to be distinguished by practical good sense ; they were
men whose favourable opinion, whether in public, or in private,
or professionally, every one who was acquainted with them
must be proud to possess. He did not know all the gentlemen
in question, but he had every as:ason to believe that a better
selection it would have been impossible to make. The only
practical objection, that bad been made to them was the danger
that their supposed political opinions would warp their judg-
ments. On their part, he felt justified in repelling the impu-
tation as totally unfounded. He would proceed to say a few
words on the course which had been pursued by their Lord-
ships in calling counsel to the bar, and afterwards in examining
witnesses. He must take the liberty (with the greatest hu-
mility) to declare that, in his opinion, it was the most unfor-
tunate precedent that could possibly be set. Where private
property was attacked, those who a ere the possessors of that
property were entitled to send counsel to the bar in order to
defend their rights. But the question here was, was the mea-
ure under their Lordships' consideration a Bill of Pains and
Penalties, or a Bill for the improvement and amendment of
important institutions? Convince him that it was the first,
and he would stop immediately, and vote for the rejection of
the measure. If it were a Bill of Pains and Penalties, their
Lordships ought not only to reject the clauses, but to repu-
diate the principle. If the Report of the Commissioners
(minute parts of which had been attacked, although the great
body of it remained unassailed) did not justify their Lord-
ships in adopting the Bill as a measure of national im-
provement, he called upon them at once to throw it out.—
(Hear, hear.) But it was evident that the object.of the Bill
was to improve the condition of the people, by reforming
,those local governments which more immediately touched
them and their interests. It was not confined to one part
of the kingdom ; it extended over the whole. It had refe-
rence to a state of things so notorious, that even those who
did not rely upon the evidence on which the Commission-
ers founded their Report, still felt it to be their duty to sup-
port the Bill. And what was the quality of the evidence
heard at their Lordship's bar fcr the purpose of weakening
the Report? It amounted to an opinion expressed by the
town-clerks of the several corporations, that the Commission-
ers, in their investigations, had paid more attention to those
who took one side of the question, than to those who took the
other-side of it. 'phis had been repeated so many times, that
much valuable time bad been lost, both to their Lordships
and to the sailors at their Lordship's bar. He should like
to see the essence of the evidence at their Lordship's bar.
Let it be recollected that it was all ex parte : and although it
was on oath, surely ex parte evidence was not enough. Was
it possible-to suppose for a moment that such ea idence as that
was a ground on which the House of Lords could proceed to
legislate? All that was done was to take particular portions
of the Report, and to ask if they were incorrect. But unless
their Lordships had called in more witnesses, and bad heard
the other side,of the question, all such examination was ut-
terly worthless. The fact was, and it appeared to him to be
clearly demonstrable, that nothing but delay had been the ob-
ject in view; He would proceed to make one or two observa-
tions on the alterations which had been made in the Bill since its
entrance into their Lordships' House. And first with respect
to the rights of freemen. If the preservation of these rights
were consistent with the object of the Bill, they ought to be
secured. But he confessed that he entertained a strong
opinion on that point. When the Reform Bill was brought
forward, it was his decided opinion, knowing that, generally
speaking, the greatest corruption prevailed among the free-
men, that they should be disqualified. And he was persuaded
that retaining the rights of freemen in the Bill under their
Lordships' consideration, would be to create a constant source
of irritation and animosity, and bad feeling, in every corporate
town in the kingdom. To the alteration in the Bill, with re-
spect to wards, he decidedly objected. If it were ultimately
adopted, at least without the introduction of a minimum as to
the number of votes, the elections could not be expected to be
pure. One alteration for the better had certainly been intro-
duced into the Bill. It deprived any one convicted of bribery
of the privilege of voting, or of any other privilege in the
borough. He wished the principle to be extended further '• he
wished it to be enacted that any man who accepted a bribe
should be subjaht to similar deprivation in every other borough.
With respect to the question of qualification, it had been treated
so ably and so fully by his Noble Friend, that it was not neces-
sary for him to enter upon it. The only argument in favour of
the provision respecting it was founded on its inefficiency and
imbecility. Indeed, so inefficient and so imbecile was it, that
perhaps the friends of the Bill would do well not to reject it, were
it not that under any circumstances it was not desirable to esta-
blish an evil principle in legislation. And what security was
there that the required 4ualification would actually exist ? None
but the oaths of the parties themselves. Their Lordships had
in various cases seen the danger and difficulty of such a prin-
ciple. It was one also which would open the door to endless
quarrel and litigation. Then as to the change which had been
made in the Bill, providing that aldermen should be elected
for life, and that those who were at present in possession of
that office should continue during life to retain it. Why it was
asserted by the witnesses who had been called to their Lord-
ships' bar, that there was no discontent among the inhabitants
of the various Corporate towns. Now, if that were the case,
the people, who were, of course, the best judges of their own
interests, would, if they were satisfied with their existing offi-
cers, keep them in at every election. The same was the case
with reference to the town-clerks. Having stated all these
opinions on the alterations
_which had been made by their
Lordships in this Bill, he would go on to say that, after all,
if lie compared the Bill as it now stood, with the existing law,
it would be a great improvement on that law. But when it
was considered that the measure went to create rights, and to
establish principles, it was surely desirable that those rights
and principles should be as perfect and as fully acted upon as
possible. Their Lordships admitted the principle that, after
the first election, all the holders of the offices in question
should be liable to quit them. They did not do 'this on any
allegation of particular delinquency, but on the ground of
the notoriety of the cafe : on the universal conviction that
in all the Corporate boroughs of the land it was fit that
such a principle should be adopted. Now was it wise,
was it prudent on the part of their Lordships—espe-
cially looking at all the circumstances of the case, looking at
the state of public feeling—having . admitted the principle,
not to adopt the best means of carrying it into effect, and of
rendering it extensively beneficial ? Was it not a melancholy
thing that the value of a good principle should be thus
lost? That the grace of a boon which would otherwise
be received by those upon whom it was conferred with
thanks, should be sacrificed to a niggardly and distrustful
policy ? He really should be glad to hear the qualification
and other clauses made more palatable to the general taste.
It had been asserted that they were sacrifices to the extreme
party in the other House of Parliament. Now lie believed
that there had been but one division in that other House upon
the measure ; and that it had been universally admitted in
that other House that the principle of the measure was good.
He took it for granted that there would be an endeavour to
compromise the matter ; and that there would be a meeting
of a deputation from each House with respect to it. If so,
he hoped that every gentleman who might be delegated by
the House of Commons would be animated with an eager
and sipcere desire to do justice to their Lordships' motives,

and to accede to such propositions as might appear to them
reasonable. And he implored such of their Lordships as might
be appointed to meet the Members of the House of Commons
on the subject to cherish a similar spirit ; to look at the great
objects contemplated by the measure, and to do what they felt
they might in justice do, to forward those objects. It was very
easy to conceive that there might he extreme parties on
both sides of the question ; and that if those parties were
to push their differences to the utmost, that a feeling of
animosity might be excited against their Lordships, of
which he did not believe that they were at present the ob-
ject. On the contrary, he believed that they enjoyed the
confidence and respect of the great body of the people ;
' although it might be regretted that they had not taken the
side of the people on the great popular questions which had
for some years been agitated in Parliament. He trusted that
all parties would think of nothing but conciliation ; he hoped
that they would be inspired with a sincere desire to do all
the practical good which it was possible to effect. He
trusted also that their Lordships would pardon the perhaps
rather strong manner in which he had expressed his wishes—
it had arisen simply from the conviction of his own mind,
that a course such as that which he had recommended was

necessary to the welfare and safety of the State ; and that,
so feeling, he should have been trifling with their Lorclkhips
if he had not so said.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Lord LYNDHURST began by observing, that he should
abstain from entering on any discussion of the principles or
details of the measure, having already had full opportunity of
delivering his sentiments on these grounds. He now felt him-
self, however, imperiously called on to address some few ob-
servations to their Lordships in his justification against the
charges which had been pteferred against him by his Noble
and Learned Friend (Lord Denman.) He was sure that
many of those charges would not have been alleged against
him by his Noble and Learned Friend, had he been present
during the progress of the measure in that House, because he
might appeal to their Lordships whether he had not over and
over again stated, that as far as the principles and opinions of
the members of the Commission were concerned, he made no
matter of complaint against them. God forbid that in this
country every man should not be at liberty to entertain without
reproach those opinions which coincided with, and conformed
to, his own judgment. He had repeatedly stated that be
made no ground of charge against the Commissioners on this
head. He had, when alluding to the commission, taken occa-
sion to say, that with many of its members ho was personally
acquainted, and the result was, that he could bear his testimony
to their being, not only men of integrity and.honour, but men
of learning in their profession. He appealed to their Lord-
ships' recollection whether he had not made that statement.—

( Hear.) But he had certainly stated, as a matter of charge
against his Majesty's Government, that they had selected, in
the formation of that commission, gentlemen of one class of
opinions, and one class of opinions only.—( Loud cries of
hear.) Again, with regard to another part of the accusation
which his Noble and Learned Friend had preferred against
him—( Hear)—he had stated that he preferred charges
against the Commissioners, not arising out of any general cir-
cumstances, but for misconduct in the discharge of the duties
imposed on them. Now, he begged to say, in answer to that
accusation, that he made no charge whatever against the
conduct of alsingle Commissioner, except what was founded
on the evidence which was taken at their Lordships' bar.—
( Hear.) He defied any Noble Lord or any individual what-
ever to accuse him justly of having, thrown out any un-
founded charge—of having made any charge which he was
not warranted in making, and which it was not his duty to
make, as arising out of the evidence taken before their Lord-
ships.—( Hear, hear.) They found in the Report of those
Commissioners charges of the most serious nature preferred
against individuals and public bodies. Then came to their
Lordships' bar petitioners complaining of those charges, stating
that they had not been guilty of the offences alleged against
them—that their conduct was correct, and that they were desi-
rous of being heard in opposition to those allegations which
bad been made concerning them. How were we, then, to
proceed ? There was none of the evidence taken by those
Commissioners laid before us.—( Hear, hear.) He called on
the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) to lay all the evidence upon
which the Reports were founded, on the table of the House.
He declined doing so, and it was withheld.—( Cheers.) De-
sirous of knowing whether the evidence really supported the
charges, and the conclusions laid down by the Commissioners,
as we could not obtain that evidence itself, we thought it righta
to hear those persons who were accused in the face of the
country of the gravest and most serious offences. Various
witnesses were accordingly examined; they exceeded thirty
in number he believed; their Lordships heard their evidence,
and the manner in which it was given, and he asked whether
they did not in every instance, acquit the persons of the
charges which were preferred against them ? In any state-
ment which he had made with reference to the Commissioners,
be had uniformly appealed to the evidence given by the wit-
nesses at their Lordships' bar; and he would have neglected
his duty if he had not pointed out the manner in which the
charges contained in the Report of the Commissioners were
met and overact, although in doing so he might have indirectly
reflected on the conduct of the Commissioners, by whom these
charges were made.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble and Learned
Friend had alluded to opinions which he stated were formerly
entertained by him, as a matter of accusation against him ;
but he had not condescended to adduce a single fact in support
of his charge. I have nothing, therefore (continued the
Noble and Learned Lord) to meet.—( Hear, hear.) I do
recollect, however, that in the other Hens& of 'Parliament my
Noble and Learned Friend did, during my absence, bring a
charge against me of a somewhat similar nature to that which
be has to-night preferred; and (if I can rely on the accu-
racy of those who report the proceedings of that House)
the only fact which he brought forward in confirmation of
his statement was, that I supported some opinion of Sir
Samuel Romilly. I suppose he alluded (for not being present
I cannot assert positively what was his meaning) to my having
supported the views of Sir S. Romilly with respect to the
amelioration of the criminal code. Now the fact was, I sup-
ported some of the attempts which that learned individual
made to ameliorate the criminal code—l opposed other at-
tempts of his for the same object. That, however, was the
only direct charge which my Noble and Learned Friend then
alleged against me with reference to the general accusations
which he preferred. When a fact is stated, I know how to
meet it : when any particular opinion is imputed, I know
how to rebut it ; but whilst my Noble and Learned Friend
throws his arrows in the dark, I know not what to combat.
( Hear.) I have been on terms of intimacy with my Noble
and Learned Friend for a lorg period; I went the same
circuit with him; I have been engaged in conversation with
him at different times ; and if he speaks of a period of 20
years past, I can only say that I am unable to recall to my
recollection the particular opinions which I might halve en-
tertained or expressed with reference to political measures;
but I can assert that I never belonged to any party or so-
ciety whatever.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In the absence of
any specific facts, I am driven to the conjecture that my Noble
and Learned Friend alluded to my conduct at the time Lord
Sidmouth was at the head of the Government ; during that
time I had some connection with some persons in that Govern-
ment • and my disposition and wish were so far from thwarting
(as the Noble and Learned Lord would seem to imply) that I
was desirous to support the course of that particular govern-
ment. I then never embarked in politics ; I did not belong
to any society or party ; and I never wrote a political article
on either side of any question which might then have been
agitated. This was my conduct until I came into the other
House of Parliament, now twenty years ago. From that pe-
riod my life has been before the public ; my course has been
direct and straightforward.—( Hear, hear.) I have always
belonged to the same party, and I have entertained the same
opinions from that time to the present.—( Renewed cheers )
Previously to that time (that of the Noble and Learned Lord's
entrance into Parliament) what expressions I uttered on indi-
vidual measures it is impossible for me to state, but I can un-
hesitatingly aver that I belonged to no party, and that I was
attached neither to the Whigs nor to the Tories, nor, as my
Noble and Learned Friend would'insinuate, to the Radicals.—
( Hear, hear.) This is a plain exposition of my political life.
My Noble and Learned Friend, alluding to discussions on
measures more than twenty years ago, states no fact, no opi-
nion, or anything in favour of the deductions which he has
now drawn. I beg pardon for trespassing on your Lordships'
attention for so long a time in a matter purely personal. I
adhere to the intention which I expressed at the outset of my
observations, of not going into any discussion of this measure
or its details, having heretofore fully availed myself of the op-
portunities which were presented for that purpose.—( Hear. )
Lord DENMAN—If my Noble and Learned Friend has
understood me as having alluded to certain opinions which he
has been supposed to entertain with a view of conveying a
calumny against him, I can only say that it is a calumny which
has often been repeated, which I stated, believing it to be true,
and which I should now believe to be true, were it not for the
assertion of my Noble and Learned Friend. And really I feel
somewhat astonished that when the question is as to what really
were the political sentiments of my Noble and Learned Friend,
he should plead forgetfulness with reference to the opinions
which he entertained, twenty years ago undoubtedly, but still
when he was of the mature age of thirty.—( Hear, hear.) Up
to the period that he came into Parliament, the universal ims
pression of those who lived on terms of close intimacy with
my Noble and Learned Friend was, that his opinions were (not
with reference to any one particular measure or any one occa-
sion) generally and unequivocally what would now be called
liberal.—( Hear, hear.) Those opinions were not uttered
merely in the presence of those who were intimate with him,
or in the course of private conversation, but they were avowed
rather as if my Noble and Learned Friend felt a pride in en-
tertaining and avowing them.—( Hear, bear.) And I will take
the liberty of telling my Noble and Learned Friend that though
his great talents must have ultimately secured to him the rank
which he holds, yet that he undoubtedly owed his first ad-
vancement to his devotion to those who entertained the
most liberal opinions in politics.--( Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to my Noble and Learned Friend's opinions respecting
Lord Sidmouth's Administration, it was the conviction, I ven-
ture to say, amongst those who knew him best, that he was
favourable to the sentiments of the Opposition of that period.
I beg to be understood as standing corrected in that opinion ;
and I shall only therefore remind my Noble and Learned
Friend that stronger proof of his being a Whig, or more than
a Whig, could be adduced with respect to himself than as to
those Commissioners against whom my Noble and Learned
Friend has really "scattered his arrows" in the dank.—
( Hear, hear.)
Lord LYNDHURST—I don't understand what my Noble
and Learned Friend means by the term " liberal opinions,"
when he gys that I owed my political advancement to those
who professed them. Up to the time of my entering Parlia-
ment I was engaged in my profession, and I had no object out
of it. I received a note from Lord Liverpool, asking me to
call on him. I went to him, and was quite surprised when he
asked me if I had any objection to enter Parliament. I re-
quired some time to consider, and the result was, that I con-
, sented and went into Parliament. That was my first Mbar-

kation upon the stormy sea of politics—one very uncongenial
to my feelings—very foreign to my habits, and on which I
am engaged on this occasion purely accidentally.—(Hear.)
Lord DE N NIAN—If I said that my Noble and Learned
Friend owed his advancement in political life to his coinciding
with those who entertained liberal opinions, I meant to allude
to his professional advancement. My memory, however, de-
ceives me very much if those who encouraged his rising talents
and stimulated his early and constant attention to his profes-
sional pursuits were not inclined to do so by their impression
of his liberal opinions in polities.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord L YND HU R ST—I was never engaged but in one
political defence. That was on the trial of Watson. On
that occasion Sir Charles Wetherell called on me as a com-
mon law lawyer, and asked me if I would agree to join him
in the conduct of that defence. After taking a short time to
consider, I answered that I would. Now that is the real his-
tory of that transaction.—( Hear, and cheers.)
Lord RADNOR observed that the Noble and Learned
Lord ( Lyndhurst) could not say that he had brought no ac-
cusation, except what was founded on the evidence taken at
their Lordship's bar, against the Commissioners, for be called
them the bought accusers of the Corporations. On what was
the report of these Commissioners to be condemned ? On
ex parte evidence, on which, if the Noble and Learned Lord
was sitting in a court of justice, he would not have hanged a
cat.—( Hear, and laughter.) Now, he would just give two in-
stances of that evidence, with a view to show how loth
they should be to attach any weight to them. One of the
witnesses from Shrewsbury had stated that Dissenters were
at that school taught the prayer-book of the Established
Church, and obliged to gO to church. Now he bad received
a letter from Dr. Butler, stating that there was not the
slightest foundation for such an assertion.—( Hear, hear.)
It had been stated also that the exhibitions were confined to
burgesses. It happened that there were only seven which
were confined to burgesses, and there were nine exhibitions,
four scholarships, and one fellowship, which were not confined
to burgesses.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble Earl opposite had de-
nounced the principle that taxation and representation should
be coeval. It was no doubt true that there were some ex-
.

e;ptions to that rule ; but exceptio probat regulant.—( Hear.;
Certain-he was that the inhabitants_ of the towns would fee'

it to be a monstrous grievance that they were deprived of their
fair and legitimate control over the affairs of the place which
they inhabited, and where whatever property they might
have was deposited.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord A S HBURTON could not help observing that the
Noble and Learned Lord (Denman) had, without having at-
tended to the course of their proceedings, introduced a degree
of violence and personality into the debate of that evening, of
which, since he had the honour of a seat in that House, he
had seen no example.—( Cheers.) The Noble and Learned
Lord had directed his attack not only against nothing which
was under discussion that night, but against opinions said to
have been entertained twenty years ago, and the ground-work
of the attack was that his Noble and Learned Friend was se-
lected by Lord Liverpool (doubtless with democratic inten-
tions) for a vacancy in Parliament, and that be was associated
with that atrocious Radical, Sir Charles Wetherell, in his de-
fence of Watson.—( Hear, arid laughter.) He deprecated
the practice of recurring to one's early life with a view of
charging an inconsistency of opinion. He bad himself en-
tered political life with liberal views, but never with extreme
ones ; and if his opinions bad undergone a change of late, it
was because he had at the outset of his career much less appre-
hension of the dangers of democracy than he entertained at pre-
sent.—( Hear, bear, from the Opposition.) The Noble and
Learned Lord said that when this measure came from the
Commons it presented itself in " beautiful simplicity." He
would not charge the Noble and Learned Lord with en-
tertaining extreme opinions ; but his assertion respecting
this measure, as it came from the Commons was a stronger
proof that be entertained extreme opinions than any which
he had brought against his Noble and Learned Friend. If
it were " simplicity," it was a democratic simplicity, which
was calculated to establish as levelling a democracy as ever
existed—( Hear)—and one which was totally inconsistent
with the monarchical or mixed form of Government in this
country.—( Hear.) Though evils belonged to'all systems of
Government—monarchy, oligarchy, and democracy—a large
share might be assigned to democracy; and the concessions
which were made to the latter power under this Bill were ab-
solutely incompatible with any power on the part of the Crown.
The measure as amended was not, on the whole, satisfactory
to him, and if the House of Commons did not pass it in that
shape, he should feel no disappointment. He admitted fully
that a cordial co-operatiott with that House was desirable, and
to attain it he should be willing to make considerable sacri-
fices ; but in reference to the present measure he should not be
grieved if they were not to accept it ; and if thus the forma-
tion of a complete municipal constitution for the country,
—a matter which was one of the greatest importance that Par-
liament.could enter into—were put off for another year. The
proposition which ought to be made to Parliament for that
purpose should be one of a far more complete and better consi-
dered nature than that which had been submitted to it.
The establishment of new Corporations was a subject which
ought to be legislated upon with more precision than the Bill
had proposed ; the power, indeed, which it was to give to
the Crown to create them at its own discretion was a mon-
strous one. Moreover, it should be borne in mind that the
present Bill in no manner touched the Corporation of London,
which possessed more exclusive privileges of an objectionable
nature than those other Corporations of small towns which
were affected by it. The Bill allowed the greater nuisance
—for nuisance it really was—to remain, either because its
promoters were afraid to touch that Corporation, or be-
cause they had been obliged to bring forward their mea-
sure crude and undigested, in their eager hurry to propound
some plan of so-called reform, for the purpose of keeping the
movement alive.
Lord BROUGHAM said that this subject bad been so
often debated by their Lordships, and he had so frequently
addressed them upon it, that he did riot now intend to tres-
pass upon their patience by again entering into it. He should
not have risen but for some of the observations of his Noble
Friend who had just sat down. His Noble and Learned
Friend then upon the Woolsack (Lord Denman) had been
brought into some little conflict with another Noble and
Learned Friend of his (Lord Lyndhurst), in consequence of
some misunderstanding. In that conflict be (Lord Brougham)
should have deemed it improper, as it would have been pain-
ful, to interfere, if his Noble Friend—who had as little to do
with it as he himself—had not thought fit to dash in where he
had been afraid to tread.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble and
Learned Friend on the Woolsack had been charged by his
Noble Friend with has ing introduced personality into
the discussion, as if he had volunteered a gratuitous
attack on his Noble and Learned Friend opposite.
His Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack
seemed to him to have had one purpose, and one only, in
view ; he learned that in his absence a denial of a very
peremptory nature had been given to certain statements of
facts, having reference to some supposed opinions of his Noble
and Learned Friend opposite at a previous period, arid that
those statements had been declared to be a calumny—that is
to say, not only injurious but false. His Noble and Learned
Friend upon the Woolsack had therefore said—acting not
upon the offensive but entirely upon the defensive—that be
had made those statements, believing them, in his conscience,
to be true ; and certainly no man at all acquainted with his
Noble and Learned Friend could doubt for one moment that
he would have stated anything as true which he did not be-
lieve. His Noble Friend opposite bad certainly no right to
rush in and interfere ; but perhaps he had thought that it
might be his turn to be next attacked, as it was called. With
reference, now, to the measure itself, his Noble Friend had
characterized it as being, in its original state, fraught with the
spirit of • pure and levelling democracy—but it had, he
said, by the changes introduced into it, been rendered
somewhat safer. On the first position he was entirely 'at issuo
with his Noble Friend. He denied that it was a measure of
pure and levelling democracy. If universal suffrage, without
_qualification for the electors or the elected, had been made
the groundwork of a new Parliamentary constitution—if the
constitution of the Peers had been levelled—if only one House
of Parliament, so chosen upon universal suffrage, had been
left to remain, then, undoubtedly, he could have seen and la-
mented that bugbear which scared and terrified the affrighted,
and, as he thought, unsound constitution of his Noble Friend.
His Noble Friend, however, forgot the extreme difference be-
tween the case which he fancied and that which was now be.
fore the House, namely—the formation of a system for meet-
ing the question of how best to manage the parish .vestry
business of Municipal Corporations.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
How the management of the business of actual parish
vestries had proceeded upon similar principles to those
here proposed, every one here well knew. The pa-
rish affairs had improved greatly—the amount of money raised
had been much reduced; in short the economy of the parish
had been consulted almost beyond the most sanguine expecta-
tions of those by whom the system had been framed.
Then, secondly, his Noble Friend said that the evils of that
pure and levelling democracy had been remedied by the altera-
tions introduced into the Bill. Now if there were one part
of the measure approaching more nearly to pure and levelling
democracy than another, it was that which allowed suffrage
without qualification—beyond, at least, the payment of rates.
Again, his Noble Friend would say that the amenders of the
Bill had provided checks and securities ; and his principal
check was one which, he himself admitted, would lose its force
from year to year, namely, the retention of the aldermen
during the period of transition, as it was called, from the old
to the new constitution. By that worst part of all those bad
changes, every one of the corporations would have in them a
body amounting to one-fourth of their number—wholly irre-
movable—filled with the old self-elected leaven—and who
being tainted with all the habits which the self-electing prac-
tice had fixed in them, would perpetuate the worst abuses
which had arisen from it in the worst times. The Noble arid
Learned Lord then alluded to the accusation made against
the Commissioners, of having brought charges against corpo-
rations and individuals connected with them. They had never
charged corporations or corporators—neither man nor thing,
without calling upon the persons concerned to come forward,
and allowing them to hear and examine the witnesses from
whom the allegation proceeded.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Would any Noble Lord rise in his place, and give him the
name of any corporation or corporator in whose case an
accusation had been made, without all the parties affected by
it being allowed to be present? That was a large defiance.
Lord LYNDHURST rose to reply to the challenge of the
Noble and Learned Lord. He begged to instance the case of
Sutton Colefield. The Commissioners received evidence
against the Corporation, but when the deputy stewards ap-
peared and offered their evidence, which they did without
giving notice, it was refused. -(Opposition cheers.) (There
was so much cheering and later occasioned by the rising
of Lord Lyndhurst and the Noble Lords who followed him,
that we could not hear very distinctly what they said.)
.The Duke of WELLINGTON rose amidst laughter and
Opposition cheers. He said that an enquiry took place into
the Cinque ports, and he was inculpated and charged; he was

in the country at the time, and he was not called on to answer

the charges made.
The Earl of FALMOUTH (and the cheers and laughter
were long-continued)—fie said, before he made the observa-
tion he had to offer to their Lordships, he begged to ask the
Noble and Learned Lord whether, in the challenge hew gave,
he confined himself merely to those cases in which evidence

was given at the bar? ~
Lord BROUGHAM—To be sure I do ; I know of no
others.
The Earl of FALMOUTH had been about to say that ho
was accused in the case of Truro, and received no notice of
the proceedings of the Commissioners. He was prepared to
put questions to the witnesses, who came to London with a
view to answer the charges that had been made ; but that case
was not gone into.
Lord BROUGHAM thought he might answer the three
Noble Lords in one.—( A laugh.) The Noble Duke described
himself as charged and accused, but he saw nothing in the
Report which made a charge against the Noble Duke, and the
Commissioners would no doubt be much more surprised than
he was when they heard of the Noble Duke's statement.--
(Cheers.) Was not the Noble Duke aware that such an in-
quiry was about to take place ?--(Cheers.) It was no very
private affair. The inquiries were not carried on in a. corner
with closed doors ; no one was prevented from appearing.
The Duke of WELLINGTON never heard of it.
Lord BROUGHAM said the terms of his defiance were—
(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—for it to bo
shown, if possible, that at any place any person or corporation
was charged, without being allowed to be present when the
charge was made, or witnesses examined.—(Contieued cries
of " Hear, bear," from the Opposition.) The population was
thirteen or fourteen millions, and did the Noble Lords mean
to say that there was to be personal notice in every case
(Renewed cries of " Hear" from the Opposition.) Noble
Lords knew that he had been accustomed to this sort of inter-
ruption in the House of Commons for many years.—(Oppo-
sition murmurs.) They might go on till five o'clock in the
morning if they pleased.—(Murmurs continued.) He knees
what it was to address a mob.—( Muct. cheering from the Oppo-
sition.) He had done it in all parts of the country.—( Re-
newed cheers.) He had addressed various mobs.—( A laugh
and cheers.) He hoped and trusted he should continue to ad-
dress mobs hereafter as heretofore. He thought it was the
duty of a public man to meet his fellow-citizens—(Cheers)and he had no objection to meet a mob either in Parliament or
out of Parliament. This, however, he must say, that the
most irregular of the assemblies he had addressed were not of
that kind which went lay the name of the three letters, and
which were to be found out of Parliament; for he had met
more, and addressed more irregular, intolerant, unlistening's
bad hearing, confident, erroneous, easily carried away, easily
caught, easily entrapped by a temporary statement, and led
astray by a fleeting notion that it would serve their purpose--
(Great laughter)—he had met more and addressed more mobs
of this description during the last four years than he had ever
met or addressed out of a House of Parliament. Now, per-
haps, the Noble Lords would allow him to go on.—( A laugh)
Very possibly the Noble Duke did not receive notice of the
meetings of the Commissioners ; but would the Noble Duke
show him that their arguments were ever conducted with closed
doors, or that permission was ever refused to any person to be
present. The Noble Lord opposite had expressed a wish that
the House of Commons should meet the majority in this House
half way ; but he feared the Noble Lord really meant that
the House of Commons should meet their Lordships the
whole way—that they should concede everything—that the,
should come and bow down before them.—(Cries of " Oh r
and " Hear.") The Noble 'Lord said if the House of Com-
mons were but half as well disposed to concede and conciliate
as their Lordships were, then the happiest results might be
expected. Whether the happy result the Noble Lord antici-
pated would be the consequence of his conditions being ful-
filled, might admit of a question ; hut if the degree of con-
cession and conciliation exhibited by their Lordships in the
last fortnight or three weeks towards the House of Commons;
and the favourite measure of the people, was what was to he
halved by the other House, it would not be very easy for that
House to meet their Lordships in the course Lisp), had taken-
Any line of conduct more extraordinary to panegyrise had never
come under his observation. 'That in certain quarters of this
House there should be great delight that this Dill had met
with undivided unmitigated hostility to its principle, and that
it had been ruined by the alterations which their Lordships;
had made in it, he could understand ; but the ground taker,
by the Noble Lord opposite was not that—he talked of conci-
liation, of a wish that their Lordships should be met half waY
by the House of Commons, as if they had themselves made
some great sacrifices for the purposes of conciliation. Now he
wished to know how they could have done less in that respect
than they had done ?—(Cheers.) He wished to know how they
could have taken any course which would have retained less of
the Bill, or would have made more changes in the Bill, and
which would not have had the same effect as if they had alto-
gether thrown it out ? They had adopted the elective fran-
chise, but that was the whole ; and if they-bad not, they shah'
have thrown it out on the second reading, which, as it was, he,
contended would have been the more intelligible, as it wool°
have been the more manly course.—( Cheers.) The Noble
Lord then professed a wish to consult certain classes of t,b!
people. Yes, but what classes? The people who were sot'
him—the corporation classes. That was what was meant'
The Noble Lord described this House as the hereditary tri-
bune of the poor. He had heard'it called a grasping and usurpiog
and encroaching oligarchy, but that it was an hereditary try.
bune of the people and the poor he never, in the wildest
dreams of any man's fancy, had heard it called. No doubt
their Lordships stood out for the rights of their fellow citisens
—( Opposition cheers)—for the rights of their fellow mayors;
of their fellow town-clerks, and of their fellow recorders, they
would stand out.—(Laughter and cheers.) The interests c;
these people their Lordships would stand by as if they %ler(
their own. The Noble Lord had declared the readiness 0,
their Lordships to correct abuses directly they discovere°
them, and no doubt this was true; but unfortunately
e
there was this great difference between the vision °l4
their Lordships and that of the. House *of Comm°
—the one was nearly as blind as the molt, and the other ,
sharp-eyed as the eagle.— (Cheers.) Their Lordships coere
see no danger till it struck the very ball of their eye, ell%
the more prudent Reformer cast his eye abroad and met the
coming storm with timely and. effective reforms. Their Lore..
J
ships said that they gave reform to England and Ireland, any.,
what harvest did it bring—in the seed-time there were nes.,
discontents, and new demands for change. Let them refore'
in time, and they would have no seed-time to dread.-;
(Cheers.) Their great mistake was, that they would not Pir,,
their sickle in the harvest in the proper season, but allowed
to fall and rot upon the ground, after which it was of coursol
in vain that they attempted to garner it up to any purpose es,7
supply to a reasonable demand. Their error was, that ,tOO4
would not reform till it was too late ; they would not do god,
till they were compelled by necessity to do it ; they would,•
nothing voluntarily—nothing with the grace of concessiciiia
What they did they deferred till all the grace which sv°°„o
have attached to it was lost. Their reform came not only teit
late to satisfy the people, but owing to the manner in whieb_,
to
was conferred made them perhaps despised rather than belove‘,ll
This.was a most mistaken policy; for their Lordships woo
have found that by timely concessions they might have giv.:.o
less, but more would be demanded when they refused to
in time that which was just. There was no greater folly
might say insanity, than delaying that which they knew tnolo
could not postpone except for a while. Their Lordships,
doubt, did not like to be admonished and warned; if they wee,b
warned, they complained that they were admonished; eria
fore, he would neither admonish nor warn them ; but he will°,
say what he considered it most expedient that they shotllu
He knew that they would despise and scoff at his opinion, ato
tell him that it was ridiculous for him to utter it ; they w°
tell him so, by means of the majority which gave them suc-e,
great support, and which so intoxicated them with confideo
that it made them deaf and blind to all that was panillOt tie
every corner of the world. Nevertheless, he would give
t to
them as his opinion, that they would find it more expedienfol
give up the sixth qualification—that having excited tloiveso
distrust and aversion. He would ask them to give up the 51 of
qualification, and the substance as well as the appearaeceid,
continuing the Aldermen and continuing the Town- Cler,
Or if the continuing of the Aldermen was limited to oec Y,.esps
hateful as it would be to the country, and odious in itsels,coe
thought the people might, after deliberate reflection, reeon_oo,
their minds to it. But to keep the clause as it stood, col
tinning the Aldermen for life of the old Corporations, wonot
be to impregnate the whole with the worst taint of the 00,
provisions of the rotten system, and would be so great an fae
rage on the people as to excite the deepest disgust, and Poss.
the fate of thii Bill in the other House of Parliament in Wool
than jeopardy. That the other House would deliberate., hi
respectfully consider this measure as sent down to thelis?
their Lordships he believed, but its rejection appeared tee,
to be inevitable. That a conference would be holden wit!), oig
Lordships, in which both parties would be induced to glf
somewhat, was the best hope he had for this measure.
st
The Earl of WINCHILSE A rose apparently nude!' 96
excitement. His sentences were so hurried, and 105.0 the
varied so frequently from the highest reach of the voice tssa
merest whisper, that it was impossible to understand rn°r§ohlii
a few words of what he uttered. He complained of thet..og
o
and Learned Loid, that he had used language in spen'i ster'
their Lordships which was of a most unjustifiable chafe ,fli?
He could not sit still under such imputations.—( Cheers. )0,01
Noble and Learned Lord had debased not only their °neer°
characters as Members of this House, but also their cheS dos
°
in other capacities. The Noble and Learned Lord ha
osidl
everything he could to degrade their Lordships—( OPP wools
cheers)—and he had said that in the House which I,lcnrcier,
not have dared to say out of it.—(Loud cries of ,A
and much cheering.) A `aid
an"'
The Marquis of CLANRICAR DE rose to order; so re
a
he hoped his doing so would give the Noble Earl 61'1. ch,t
collect himself.—( Cheers.) He was sure the Noble,l
feel for the character of this House, and the Noble rd° Joel
feel that the words he bad uttered could not tend t0..,111bi, afro
its character. The Noble Earl had charged the i'°ciegrau.,
Learned Lord with having done all in his pelves to bo l°
e,
this House. Under these circumstances he felt it tb°reiste
duty to move that the Order of their Lordships, Whic beir
to the use of personal expressions in- the course of t that
bates, be read at the table by the clerk. He must saYid 00_7
this language was to be held in this House there wc'uotioll,
be an end to all argument, and to all legislative and
. Stall'
proceedings. He moved, then, that the 15th of OW
de-
mg Orders be read. , ti
[The Order was read accordingly by the Ciera• no us°,
dared that Noble Lords should remark on the argil° so es
to_ft a per
in debate, and should not extend their observations
pressions of Members ; and it prohibited all remarks _
, t
sonal, insulting, or offensive description.] toa- sss
Lord BRO UG HAM observed, that it was eeidc wbat
Noble Earl laboured under a misapprehension as to ,
fallen from him. The Noble Earl laboured under st...reaseors
citement, and had made use of language which h°