The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-04 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 4, 1835.

come when all the efforts of the Noble Marquis (Chandos)
would not be able to keep up these injurious laws.
Mr. PEASE hoped there would always be enough of sup-
port in that House for the landed interest—( Hear, hear)—and
that that House would not allow those laws to be taken away
till the subject was fairly debated.
The petition was laid on the table.
CASE OF MR. GURNEY.
Mr. CA YLE Y presented a petition from 700 of the ope-
ratives of Preston, complaining very much of . the late
Factories Act. They stated that many of the provisions
of that Act had been evaded by the masters, and that children
were still compelled to labour for twelve or fourteen hours in
the day. The Hon. Member gave notice that early in The en-
suing session he would bring forward the case of Mr. Gurney;
which he had been unable to bring forward this session.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE thought that Mr. Gurney had
a strong claim to compensation from the public, and he hoped
that when that claim was brought forward, it would receive
the favourable consideration of the House.— The petitions
were then laid on the table.
NEWSPAPER DUTIES. •

Mr. WALLACE presented a petition from an individual
in Galway, complaining of the charge upon newspapers of one
penny postage. This was extremely unjust, and he hoped an
end would be put to it. As it was, however, under the con-
sideration of the Government, he would say no more upon
the subject at present.
The Hon. MEMBER also presented a petition from the Post-
master of Dumfrios, with respect to the charge of post-hone
duty. Also a petition from the Magistracy of Greenock,
with respect to the bonding system.
The HON. MEMBER also presented a petition from the Cham-
ber of Commerce of Greenock against the Redcar Harbour
Bill. Also a petition from parties residing in Glasgow, from
persons who had been prosecuted under the Stamp Duties
Act, praying that their case might be taken into consideration.
Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that to-morrow he should
present a petition from certain parties involved 'in cer-
tain transactions in London, with respect to the Stamp
Duties. He gave this notice in the hope that his Ma-
jesty's Attorney-General and other Members of the Govern-
ment would be present. The case was one of the most atro-
cious that he had ever witnessed.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL tl_ought that giving a notice ac-
companied with arguments, especially as it involved the cha-
racter of his Majesty's Ministers, was perfectly inconsistent
with the rules of the House.
SCOTCH CHURCH COMMISSION.

Sir W. RAE said he would take that opportunity of making
a complaint with respect to the Commissioners that had been
appointed to inquire into Scotch Churches. In his opinion,
that Commission ought to have consisted of men of all
parties; but instead of that course being adopted, per-
sons only of a certain party had been selected.—( Hear.)
He would ask, was a person who it was well known wrote tracts
against the Established Church of Scotland, a fit person to be
appointed on the Commission ? A Commission composed of
what he could not but designate as party men, was very un-
likely to give satisfaction to the people of Scotland--( Hear,
hear)—and he would therefore suggest to the Noble Lord op-
posite the propriety of making alterations in it.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would not pretend to state the
merits or demerits of the individuals composing that Commis-
sion, because he was not personally acquainted with them ;
but this he would say, that the persons named were, generally
speaking, those who would do their duty fairly, and, in his
opinion, it was no objection that some of them were of a par-
ticular way of thinking on political matters.--( Hear, hear.)
He could state that many of those Honourable Members
who thought with him on political matters, were divided
with regard to the question of the Church of Scotland--
some of them advocating a grant, and others being
against it. He was justified, therefore, in saying, that this
was not a party or political matter. The. gentlemen named
upon it were not only persons of great ability, but of the
strictest integrity and impartiality, and there could not be
any objection fairly taken against them.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
ith respect to the gentleman against whom exception
was taken on the ground that he was not a member
of the Church of Scotland, he could state that many
members of the Church of Scotland were of opinion that
some person should be appointed on the Commission
to represent the Dissenters of Scotland, in order that the
amount of religious instruction given by the Dissenters should
be ascertained. Perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
wished to shut out the Dissenters altogether. That might
be his view, but such was not the views of his Majesty's
Government.—(Hear, hear.) It was necessary that the
means of instruction afforded to the people of Scotlann
should be ascertained as far as possible, and that
he believed the present Commission would do fairly and
honestly. On these grounds, and because he did not believe
that it was a party question, he (Lord J. Russell)saw no reason
for giving any other advice to his Majesty than that he had
already given.
Sir G. CLARKS, without going into the merits of the dis-
cussion, would say that the appointment of that Commission
had created general disappointment in Scotland. It was
composed ofyoung barristers of not more than two years standing,
and who were better known rather as being very active sup-
porters of the present administration during the election,
than for displaying any interest in the welfare of
the Church of Scotland.— (Hear, hear.) He did not
think the people of that country could be at all satis-
fied that this investigation into the means of religious
education should be committed to the hands of four or five
young barristers, whose talents and abilities, however,
lie did not dispute when applied to other matters. The
Commission appeared indeed to have been constituted more
in the temper of the speech of the Lord Advocate, than in
that of the Secretary of State for the Home. Department.
Mr. C. FRIZGUSS ON said that no man was more sin-
cerely attached to the Church of Scotland than himself,
and many supporters of the present Administration he knew
to be warm supporters of the Church.—( Hear.) Persons
in the Commission were persons above all suspicion ; and if
they were barristers without practice, so much the better,
because they had more time to devote to the task which they
were required to perform, and which indeed did not need
any very extensive knowledge or attainments. He admitted
having said that this ought not to be a party Commission,
but he spoke in reference to religion rather than politics.
He did not think the Right Honourable Baronet was justified
in saying that the present Administration was not friendly
to the Church of Scotland. He approved of that Com-
mission, and he believed that it would have been unjust
to the Dissenters of Scotland, if no man known to be friendly
to that body had been appointed to that Commission.
The LORD ADVOCATE defended the character of
the Commissioners. The youngest of them w.ls a person
of as high a character, and as great ability and im-
partiality, as any that could be found in Scotland.--( Hear.)
lie knew there were objections to this Commission, but they
were chiefly of a very -opposite kind, viz.—that too many
friends of the Church were chosen.—(Hear, hear.) If it
had been possible to select persons well acquainted with the
country, and at the same time unconnected with it, it would
have been desirable; but while there were so many distin-
guished friends of the Church upon this Commission, it would
have been a singular thing if one Dissenter had not been ap-
pointed, but it was still more singular that this appoint-
ment should be objected to.--( Hear; hear.) Their great
object had been that they should appoint persons who should
be impartial, and he trusted that in their selection they had
been perfectly impartial.
Mr. PR INGLE--It was a mockery to say that this Corn.
mission had given satisfaction ; it had on the contrary caused
great disappointment even among the friends of the Govern-
ment. They did not object to the appointment of a Dissenter,
but because he professed the voluntary principle. He recom-
mended the Government to make further enquiry upon this
subject.

Mr. BAINES rose amidst cries of " Oh." The inquiry
was, whether the voluntary principle or the Established
Church should receive support ?--(Cheering.) He hoped
they would hear before they would judge. He
understood that one of its objects was to inquire whether
the Established religion should have entirely the sup-
port which might be afforded by that House, or whether
support should be afforded to other systems of reli-
gious worship ?—( Hear.) When only one Commissioner was_
favourable to the voluntary principle, and ten opposed to it,
the complaint could not be fairly made that an undue preference
was given to the Dissenters.
Mr. F. MAULE did not see the Commission in the same
light—if he did he would not support it.
The petition was then laid on the table.
MR. KEITH—IPSWICH ELECTION.
The SPEAKER informed the House that he had received a
letter from one of the Members of the Eastern Division of
Norfolk. It appeared that the number of prisoners before the
Court was so much less than usual, that after Tuesday next
they could not safely present an indictment against Mr. Pil-
grim in the absence of Mr. Keith.
After a few words from Mr. HUME,
The question that Mr. Keith be-sent down in custody of the
Serjeant-at- Arms was 'then put.
Lord STORMONT had moved that Mr. Keith be called
to the bar on Wednesday, and discharged, but having since
ascertained that his legal advisers considered the pre-
sence of Mr. Keith necessary to sustain the indictment
before the Grand Jury, he should move, as an amendment,
that Mr. Keith be called to the bar that evening and dis-
charged. He should certainly oppose the motion for sending
down Mr. Keith in custody, as it would utterly blast his pros-
pects and character.
Mr. HUME begged to ask the Speaker if the Noble Lord
could anticipate his motion in that.way.
Lord ST ORM 0 NT contended he was perfectly in order.
He could move an amendment to any motion he had given.
The SPEAKER thought it essential to the main-
tenance of order thatno.altaltoion should be made in the terms
of motions made by Mitnbers:
Mr. WASON 'boniptidued that one individual should be
confined tri lieirgata si. vosaa, ;Mile another, _ wife eau
OMMitted a much more aggor'iatid deuce, should be dis-

charged at the end of five days.—( Hear.) It would be most
indecent if such a practice was persevered in.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that as six persons had
,been already prosecuted, enough had been done in the way o'
example, and if it went to a division be would give his v,,t
for the Edischarge of Mr. Keith.—( Cheers prom the Op.
position.)
Mr. HUME thought the conduct of the Noble Lard very
inconsistent, and should vote the other way.
Mr. P. M. STEWART thought that the offence of Mr.
Keith was one of a very aggravated nature [hear, hear !].
He had recommended the absence of Pilgrim, and had been
accessary to prolonging it, not merely as Clipperton had done,
by corresponding with him, but actually by offering a personal
interview with him at Calais to relinquish the charge of em-
bezzlement, if he would persevere in a breach of the privi-
leges of that House [hear, hear !]. What were they now
asked to do.? Why to liberate Keith to enable him to prose-
cute a charge of embezzlement which he had himself pro-
posed to forego [hear, hear I]. When Mr. Clipperton, a pro-
fessional man, had endured seven weeks' imprisonment, and
sustained the pecuniary loss inevitable on the absence from
business, he saw no reason for releasing Keith, the worst of-
fender in this memorable transaction, after an imprisonment of
only five days' duration [hear, hear 1] The House might sit
seven weeks longer„ indeed from the reports of the day he
saw no prospect of an immediate termination of the session.
Mr. CUTL A R FERGUSON was extremely sorry that
it was not in his power to vote for the amendment to which
his Noble Friend had acceded. A careful perusal of the evi-
dence convinced him that it was one of the most aggravated
cases in his recollection.
Lord EBRINGTON felt bound to support the original
motion [hear I]
After-a few words from Mr. ESTCOVRT and Mr. AGLIONBY,
the House divided—
For the original motion
For the amendment
Majority —S
THE LATE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to move the resolution, of
which he had given notice, relative to the late Sergeant-at-
Arms.—( Hear, hear.) " That Mr. Speaker be requested to
acquaint Mr. Henry Seymour ,that this House entertains the
highest sense of the exemplary zeal and fidelity with which
he has uniformly discharged the duties of his situation during
his long attendance in the service of the House."—(Cheers.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL seconded the motion.
The resolution was immediately carried.
COLONIAL SLAVERY—COMPENSATION ACT.
Some papers on this subject having been presented,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee of the
whole House on the Bill for making compensation to the West
India Proprietors for the loss of their slaves.
On the question being put,
Mr. HUME hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would
not persevere in the motion ; at all events, until the papers
just presented had been printed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that his object was to provide for the issue of funds for making
compensation to the owners of slaves at a period anterior to
the present time. His object also was to explain to the House
all the circumstances attending the loan proposed to be con-
tracted for that purpose. 'lt was the usual course in such
cases, and he hoped his Hon. Friend would not object to its
adoption on the present Instance.
The motion was again put and carried, and the House
resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House ac-
cordingly,
Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. -
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER confessed,
that were it not for the confidence he reposed in the, indul-
gence of the House, he should feel very great difficulty in
rising to address it on that occasion, knowing, as he did, that
the details he was about to enter into were not very likely to
captivate its attention, still Hon. Members were pleased to
recollect—as he trusted the individuals he was addressing
would—that the transaction in question was one of the most
important that had been brought before Parliament for
many years. The House was aware that under the Act of
Parliament which had just been read, powers were given
to enable the Government to raise a sum net exceeding
twenty millions sterling, to meet the compensation to be
given to the owners of slaves in the West Indies, for the
_ . _

toss which they might sustain from the operation of that
Act. The provisions of the Act which had regard to the
mode of raising the twenty millions, were matters of serious
consideration and discussion at the time it was before the
Ifoueee and the terms-. under which the Government wee
empowered to raise the sum necessary for the purposes of
the Act differed from those upon which former loans had
been rained. In former negotiations for loins, it had al-
ways been the practice to leave it to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to decide who should be the individual con-
tractors to whom the contract should be offered, and he was
then obliged to come to Parliament for a recognition of the
loan ; but under the provisions of the Bill in question, full
and unrestricted powers were granted to the Government
to contract the loan, saving only the powers of Parlia-
ment, by requiring that the papers should be laid within a
certain time upon the table of the House. Acting under the
provisions of that Act, it became his province as Chancellor of
the Exchequer, asoon as circumstances would allow him,
to ascertain forzillM sum to make provisions, in order to
to meet the obligations contracted under it. He had been
reprehended for not having taken steps earlier ; but circum-
stances, which itNiiikatsmecessary
,for him to particularize, had
induced him to ,posigosieuntil the last moment he could, en-
tering into the contract. Under the provisions of the Act,
while full powers were given to the Government to con-
tract a loan not weeding twenty millions, they were re-
stricted as to the time within which the loan should be con-
tracted so far as this, that it was required that Parliament
should be sitting when the loan was contracted; and having
now entered the month of August he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) found himself compelled to make provisions for
being prepared with the maximum sum, which might be re.
quired to meet such claims as might be made between the
present piled' and the next meeting of Parliament. The
full amount of the West India compensation was 20,000.000/.,
bnt in that. "amount_ was included the sum of 2,100,0001.,
which was allotted to the compensation of the proprietors
of slaves in the Mauritius, and 1,200,0001., which was allot-
ted as compensation to the proprietors of slaves in the Cape
of Good Hope. Neither of these sums could come in course
of payment between the present period and the month of Fe-
bruary next ; and he was therefore justified in excluding
3,000,000/. from the loan about to be contracted upon that
account. There was a sum of 1,721,000/. applied as corn.
pensation to the owners of slaves in Barbadoes. With regard
to that sum the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonial
Department, in the admirable statement which he made to the
House on the subject of the West India Colonies, had told
them that an Acthad passed the Colonial Legislature of Bar-
badoes, which, like
,all other Acts passed by the Legislatures
of the Colonies, it was necessary should be approved of by the
King in Council. The Act in question was• deemed inade-
quate and unsatisfactory, and it had in. consequence been dis-
allowed by his Majesty in Council. The effect of this was,
that until a new Act had been passed through the Legislature
of Barbadoes, and approved of by the King in Council, no
part of the compensation applied to Barbadoes could be called
for. He was not in a position to say that this sum should be
excluded from the consideration of the House at present,
because it was possible that before the next meeting of Par-
liament the' Colonial Legislature of Barbadoes might pass an
Act which would be sausfactOry. 11, therefore, this cleina
was excluded from consideration at present, the result would
be, that if in the interval they passed a satisfactory- Act, 'they
would still be entitled to payment of their claims, without any
provision having been made for it. He therefore proposed
that this-sem should be provided, not as a part of the contract,
but, as had formerly been proposed by a Noble Lord who was
not now a Member of the House, by a separate charge, repre-
senting the amount applicable to the owners of slaves in Bar-
badoes, and which sum should remain subject to the orders of
the compensation Commissioners till such time as a satisfactory
Act was passed by the Legislature of Barbadoes. The conse-
•quence of this was, that between the 3,300,000/., which was the
amount allotted to the Mauritius and the Cape of Good Hope,
and the 1,721,000/. which was the amount allowed to Barba-
does, he thought he might safely exclude five millions out of tho
present loan. Five millions, therefore, of the amount of the
whole composition was, at least, for the present, out of the
question. Ile found himself, however, bound to make pro-
visiorl for the other 15 millions. The period at which he
might -be called upon to pay these claims was, it was true,
uncertain, still it was necessary that they should be provided
for. He :might be called upon for a considerable amount as
early a's September next. He might be called upon on the
13th ofSeptember, to pay all claims which are unopposed ;
or, which being opposed, reference was made in regard to
them to the Courts of Law. In the first case they might be
called upon to pay the claims at the desire of the parties them-
selves, and in the second place, at the desire of the Court.
So that a large past of the whole claims might be called for
at—once. That, however, was not likely. Looking, there-
fore, at • the circumstance of this being so large an operation
as al loan of 20,000.000/. and that it was clear that it could
only be, raised by distributing the instalments over a given time,
and that it might happen that the amount of the instal-
ments paid by *loan contractors was not equal to the
amount of claims made upon the West indie Compensation
Cotnraissioners, it was proposed to provide for both cases,
and if posilble to secure the advantage of the distribution
of the instalments over a certain period, while they avoided ,
the inconvenience of not being prepared with funds to '
meet all the .claims' that might be rnado: It was pro-
posed, that in every ease where the instalMents were
not sufficient to meet the amount of claims made,
it shotild be the duty- of the Government to, issue a
certificate or delienture onpaymentof intertsi; which should
become ehargeabld on the instalments which were afterwards
to be paid ; in fact, being a bill payable at thirty-one or sixty-
one days, as the ease might be, and redeemii'l,l,,, oersefiq4.
riods, but not vein: iAt.eefOlcilfly-teinl64oring with the Lx.
It was alse pronaae,l `.l thse c-
ficetes or debentures should be receivu-ble:as partat paop-tienterti of I