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(No. 12,3[9.)

This day was published, in 2 rids. post Svo. price 215.,
JOURNAL, of a NOBLEMAN : Com-
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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Miurcil 6.

to introduce into that country. A great deal had beer,
said as to the mutilation of the Scriptures; but he di,
not, however, entertain the slightest suspicion tha'
the Right Honourable Secretary had any wish
or intention of desecrating them either by mutilation or
otherwise; all he objected to was, that the Scriptures had
not been made by him, as they ought to have been, the final
and only groundwork of his system. The scheme of educa-
tion in Scotland had for upwards of 200 years wrought well;
but when he considered the scheme proposed for Ireland
by a Protestant Government, he could not but say that it
was objectionable in principle, and would be ineffi-
cient in practical operation. A combined system
of education would never succeed in Ireland. He hoped
that the fund provided by Government for the purposes
of education in Ireland would be withdrawn, and that
the instruction of the poor would be left to indi-
viduals and private societies. He expressed a hope that in
the estimates to he shortly brought before the House not
one single shilling would be allowed for this purpose.

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By JOHNWATKINS, LL.D.

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Of whom may be had,

The SPEAKER took his seat at Four o'clock, and for a
considerable time the House was occupied in advancing
various Private Bills a stage.
Lord GROSVENOR brought in a Bill for enlarging
the church of St. Mary, in the County Palatine of
Chester, which was read a first time.

Mr. STANLEY thought it would be most convenient to
take that opportunity, although somewhat unusual on the
presentation of a petition, to make some general observations
upon the system of education which Government were now
endeavouring to introduce in Ireland, and which he com-
plained had been not a little misunderstood. He said " en -
,leavoured to introduce " because he entirely agreed with the
assertion that the present system was only to be considered
as an experiment—as an endeavour to carry into practice,
under circumstances of peculiar difficulty, what had been
sanctioned by commission after commission, by Committee
after Committee, and had received from time to time the
warm approbation of the Legislature of the United Kingdom.
Among the variety of those motives which might
have led to that opposition which he regretted prevailed
to so great an extent against the present system, he
would endeavour to speak of none which would not
do credit to the source from which they had arisen.
If he was to say that there was one body in Ireland dis-
tinguished for eminent scriptural piety, moral conduct,
and discipline among their members, and for enforcing
habits of good order, loyalty, religion, and morality,
among those committed to their charge, that body
was the Presbyterian Synod of Ulster, from
whom a petition against this system emanated.—(Hear.)
He trusted his Noble Friend would believe that he (Mr.
S.) could be actuated by no feelings towards such a body
as that of the Presbyterians of Ireland, except those of the
sincerest respect for their opinion and of the most anxious
wish that he were able to coincide with them in their senti-
ments. He was far from saying the system of education which
his Majesty's Government proposed to adopt in Ireland
was a perfect system—he was very far from saying it was
one which was designed for Protestants alone, or one even
the least open to objection ; but the House would recollect
that the great object the Legislature and the Government
had in view, was to succeed in the endeavour of uniting
in one common cause, and one system of education, the
religious education of the Irish population. They were not
about to introduce a system of education for the Protestants
alone, or for the Catholics alone, but a system which
should combine Protestants and Catholics together, and of
which the fruit might be that which was said in the Holy
Scriptures to be the fruit of our religion—love, peace,
meekness, and gentleuess—(Cheers). He agreed with
his Noble Friend there could net be a heavier im-
putation thrown upon the Government, nor one of
which Government ought to be so much ashamed,
as that, with a view of not conciliating, they
had refused to adopt suggestions which, within their own
minds, they might consider deserving of adoption. In the
present system there was no sacrifice of principle—
no departure which the most conscientious Protestant
might not sanction, from the most strictly Protestant
system, in that system which was proposed to he introduced.
The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had taken
for his text a letter which purported to contain the
principles of the system intended to be carried into effect ;
end as that letter proceeded from himself (Mr. S. ), he
hoped to be able to vindicate all that was laid down in it.
One of the principal objections urged against the
system was, the power given to one of the Members of
the Board to select such books as should be used by the
children. Now, this was an objection which might al-
ways be urged by the Presbyterians of Ireland and Scotland
as fatal to any system that could possibly he proposed, in
which a Board was to act. The Kildare-street Society
was subject to the sante objection, but yet a single objec-
tion on this ground had never been raised to that Society.
Whatever merit or censure this system might he entitled
to, that merit or censure belonged not to the present Go-
vernment; because his Majesty's Government hail lite-
rally and solely carried into effect the recommendations
of the Committee of the House of Commons, that Commit-
tee having carefully observed the recommendations of vari-
ous Commissioners at various times appointed to inquire
into the system of education in Ireland.—(Cheers.) A very
warm but very unfounded charge had been made against
this plan of education that it was to introduce
a mutilation of the Scriptures; and, taking this for granted,
it was inconceivable how much misconception and how
much clamour have been raised upon it. It was
said that Government was about to take away from
the Protestant population of Ireland the free and
unrestricted use of the Bible. (Hear, hear, hear.)
This he flatly denied. Government was asked, too, if
they paid no respect to the petition of 230,000 of
the Protestants of Ireland against this system ?—(Hear.)
Government was disposed to respect all the petitions of the
Protestants of Ireland, but when he (Mr. S.) recollected
the manner in which that petition was got up, the allegations
it contained, and its avowed ground, it was clear that it was
not against the system the petition was presented, but
against robbing their children of the free and unrestricted
use of the Bible. That was the ground upon which
the petition was presented, because at the time the
petition was got up, they were induced to be-
lieve their children would be deprived of the
free and unrestricted use of the Word of God.
Now he admitted that his letter contained the principles
on which the system proposed to act, and he called upon
any gentleman to show from that letter one single sentence,
which either distinctly or by implication said, or could
be construed to mean, that the Protestant children of
Ireland were not intended to have the free and
unrestricted use of the Scriptures. Upon this point he
begged to call the attention of the House to the
16th report of the Commissioners; and in the first place
entreated Hon. Members to recollect who those in-
dividuals were who were appointed on that commission.
He would trouble the House with an extract from the
report of those Commissioners, to show that Minis-
ters were not to be denounced as anti-Protestant
or anti-Scriptural. Now as to the control over the
books to be used, it had been the recommendation of all
the Commissioners that a control should be vested in the
Board over all books to be used in the school, but it was
felt that as the Board must necessarily consist of Members of
different persuasions, there would be a just ground of
complaint, if the choice of books for Catholic children
were vested in Protestants. It was therefore required
that no control should be exercised over religious works,
except by those Members of the Board who were of the
same religious persuasion as the children who had to use
them.—(Hear.) And he would undertake to say, that
when he mentioned the names of Dr. Murray, Archbishop
of Dublin, and Mr. Blake, Chief Remembrancer, no
person would entertain the smallest fear that that control
had been improperly exercised. That control, however,
did not extend to those standard works of either one belief
or the other, which were recognized by any Church as the
rule of faith. For it would be as improper to exclude from
the Presbyterians their rule of faith, as to exclude from the
religious instruction of Protestant children the Bible itself,
which was acknowledged as their safest rule of conduct.
It was held that in a combined education it would be ne-
cessary that such books only should be introduced as were
sanctioned by all the Members of the Board, and had obtained
the approbation of the ministers of each religious persua-
sion. On reference to the 14th Report, the Commission-
ers expressed their opinion that a Board should be esta-
blished under the authority of an Act of Parliament,
empowering them to receive and dispose of Parliamentary
grants for building and endowing schools; to decide on the
appointment, conduct, and dismissal of masters, to prescribe
the mode of education, and to have the general control
over the whole of the proposed establishments for the
instruction of the lower classes. Their attention also
was to be directed to the selection of proper books
to be read in the schools, but nothing was to be
taught without the approbation of the Commis-
sioners, nor any mode of education introduced with-
out their sanction. By that plan the Commissioners
anticipated that great advantages would result. They
also stated the disadvantages that had resulted from
the plan which had before been adopted, and

A petition was presented by an Hon. Member from
Gravesend, against the Gravesend Pier Bill, which was
referred to the Committee upon the Bill.

MORTIMER'S COMMERCIAL DICTIONARY, 255.
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LABOUR IN FACTORIES BILL.

Mr. Alderman THO3IPSON presented five petitions
in favour of the Labour in Factories Regulation Bill. As
the Bill had been referred to a Select Committee, he would
not trouble the House further than to state that the peti-
tions were most numerously and respectably signed.
The petitions, which were from the inhabitants of the
3linories, Bishopsgate, Shoreditch, Hoxton, and White-
chapel, were then real, mid ordered to be referred to the
Committee on the B 11.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

Mr. J. GORDON rose to present some petitions upon
the subject of national education in Ireland. The first was
signed by a Nobleman, several clergymen, and a number of
freeholders in the county of Tipperary. They stated that
as the Scriptures were the word of God, they should be
the only infallible rule of practice, and therefore there
should be an unlimited use of them, and not a partial use.;
that one of the principal causes of the absence of
Scriptural education was the opposition of the Ro-
man Catholic clergy to the circulation of the
Scriptures ; they regretted the withdrawal of the Govern-
ment support Iron' certain societies in Ireland established
to encourage scriptural education,and they protested strongly
against the new plan of education proposed by Government.
They prayed that no Parliamentary grant might be made to
carry into effsa:t that plan. A second petition was from
certain Protestant clergymen and other Protestants in
Clonmel ; and but for the system of terror and intimida-
tion pursued in that part of the country, he (Mr. Gordon)
would undertake to say, that for every one who sign, d the
petition, there would have been ten. The third petition
was from the Minister and Congregation of Port Mahon,
in the county of Down, upon the same subject.
Lord ACHESON supported the prayer of the petitions.
He had one upon the same subject, but he was afraid that
he should not have an opportunity of presenting it. He
would, however, shortly state his objections to the plan
proposed by his Majesty's Government. The peti-
tion with which he was entrusted was from a
highly respectable and influential body of men,
the Presbyteria❑ Ministers of the Synod of Ulster, con-
vened to take the new plan of education into considera-
tion. They expressed their gratitude to the House for
the support they had hitherto given to education in Ire-
land, but they deeply regretted the proposed alte-
ration in the system of education. He did not
wish to enter into the comparative merits of any
particular plan of education ; the question was merely
whether the particular plan proposed by his Majesty's Go-
vernment could or could not with propriety be introduced
in Ireland, and whether the effects were likely to be such
as the proposers of it expected when they introduced it.
Among other objections there was one peculiar to them-
selves. They stated that by the plan one of their body
would he appointed to a situation at a Board, which would
exercise its supreme control over schools and school-
books, and that that was entirely contrary to the
essential points of the doctrines and opinions of their
church ; that the arrangement destroyed the Ministerial
character, and put over them a sort of control which was
not consistent with their tenets. The petitioners also
stated another objection to the plan, namely, the power it
gave of appointing and removing schoolmasters, tak-
ing that patronage out of the hands of the Protest-
ants, and placing it in the hands of the Members
of that body. The great objection, however, brought for-
ward by the Protestants and Presbyterians for the mea-
sure was, that extracts selected by the Board were to
be used as school books, to the exclusion of the Bible,
and thereby the Protestants would be deprived of
the free use of the Scriptures. If it was intended that
those extracts were to be garbled, be (Lord Acheson)
should be the first man to come forward and give his op-
position to that course of proceeding ; but after extracts
were made, as he had every reason to believe they
would be, so as to form no concessions on the
part of the Protestants to the Catholics, he did not see
what great objection there could be to the use of such
extracts. It was asserted also that, by this plan,
the Protestants were to be deprived of the use of the
Bible. He (Lord Acheson) did not profess himself to
be altogether friendly to the plan, as lie thought it
would, ultimately, be found impracticable, but he was
a well-wisher to his Majesty's Government, and would
support them when their motives were good ; he must
therefore protest against the insinuations and positive as-
sertions which bad gone forth in Ireland that the motive
which induced Ministers to bring forward the plan which
they now proposed was to deprive the Protestants
of the free use of the Bible, and he appealed to the House
whether there was a single sentence or word in the plan
that could lead to such an interpretation. He re-
gretted that the present line of opposition had not
been rather less, as it had been the means of exciting
in the minds of the people of Ireland a feeling of suspicion
arising from the most unfounded insinuations, which had
induced them to look on the future measures of Ministers
with rather a jealous eye.—(Hear, hear.) The objections
he (Lord Acheson) had to the plan was that the greater
the number of schools that were adopted under it,
the less would be the power of the ministers to
give instructions, and, therefore, until that objec-
tion was removed, he could not give it bis support.
He hoped the time was not far distant when all the differ-
ences of party would be turned aside, and when the men of
might and influence in Ireland would come to the consi-
deration ol the subjects interesting to their country unbiassed
by sectarian prejudices. He spoke upon the subject as a
sincere and candid friend of the Ministry; he did not ascribe
to them any unworthy motives in the promulgation of
their system ; and indeed if he considered that the
motives which had been imputed to Government were
justly ascribed to them, he should instantly withdraw
that support which he had hitherto humbly but sincerely
given to them. He would take another opportunity of
presenting the petition.
Sir ALEX. JOHNSTONE cordially concurred in the
views expressed by the Noble Lord who had just sat
down. He was happy, however, to find that the Right
Hon. Secretary considered this scheme only as an experi-
ment; sure he was that it never could practically succeed.
There had been many imputations upo❑ the inefficiencY
of the Kildare-street Society; but they were wholly
groundless; and he submitted that the strictures of
the Right Honourable Secretary for Ireland upon
its operation could not be substantiated. He was well
aware of the difficult and most embarrassing circum-
cumetances in which the Government was placed in
Ireland, but without impugning their principles or
motives, he was constrained to say that they bad
overlooked principle, and consulted only expediency,
in this scheme of education which they were attempting