The Sun.
London, England, 1859-06-08 00:00:00

ber for the city, I must say, as I have said before, that I can-
not admit that the question of Parliamentary reform, or any
great question which oug,ht to be dealt with in this coun-
try, can become part or parcel of any political monopoly.
(Hear.) Ido not recognise the convenient dogma, now cir-
culated, that great questions interesting this country, and
more especially its domestic condition, are to be touched and
treated only by one particular favoured, even though edu-
cated section. (Hear, hear.) I think it would be very
dangerous to this country that we should adopt the prin-
ciple that any party which can be called to the administra-
tion of affairs should consider themselves shut out from
dealing with any great question of public interest. If they
are, they are unfit to sit upon this bench of severe
responsibility, and must take office under conditions inju-
rious to the public service and the public interest. Ido not
want to enter into an historical disquisition upon the jus-
tice of this favourite theory of the noble lord ; but I do not
find that in history Parliamentary reform has been the par-
ticular privilege and property of the educated section. I
know very well that Mr. Pitt did not belong to the, edu-
cated section—(laughter)—but he was a Parliamentary re-
firmer. The Duke of Richmond was, I think, not one of
the educated section, but he was a Parliamentary reformer.
I know many other illustrious men who at different times
within the last eight years have given their opinions in
Parliament upon this subject, and very few of them have
belonged to the educated section. (Renewed laughter.) I
admit that the educated section has during the present cen-
tury had a very fine opportunity of dealing with this ques-
tion, of which they availed themselves with great policy
and adroitness. I give them credit for the manner, for the
statesmanlike manner in which they dealt with it, but I do
not acknowledge their monopoly. Ido not acknowledge
the peculiar privilege which the educated section is so ready
to assert. I observe, also, that until very recently the edu-
cated section has not, since 1832, shown any very great en-
thusiasm on the subject. (Laughter.) I think that the
other sections of the Liberal party, which I suppose are not
to be considered educated sections, have shown much more
sincerity on the subject than the educated section itself.
(Hear.) I say that we have a full and fair right to deal
with this question, and what is more, I believe that as a
party we can deal with it more advantageously even than
the education section. (Hear, hear.) I need not vindicate
the measures which her Majesty's Government brought in
last session in comparison with the measures of the noble I
lord. That I have done; but I must say this for her Ma-
jesty's Government, that they do not consider them-
selves bound by the measure which they brought for-
ward in the last Parliament a bit more than the noble lord
considers himself bound by the measures which he has in-
troduced. (Cheers.) We all know that the subject is one
of immense difficulty. I cannot agree with the noble lord
(the Marquis of Hartington) when, in exception to his ge-
nerally temperate and sensible remarks, he seemed to deny
that Parliamentary reform could become a -matter of com-
promise between CoritervatiVe and Liberal opinions. No
measure of Parliamentary reform can be passed, or ought
to be passed, which is not a compromise between Conser-
vative and Liberal opinions. (Hear, hear.) Of course, it
is very easy for a demagogue to say, " This is the only
scheme of Parliamentary reform that I will agree to," be-
cause he does not want it to pass, and never thinks it will
pass; but those who deal with the question like men of
practice, and who, like the noble lord the member for the
city and his friends, means to pass measures, could never
tolerate the principle laid down by the noble lord the mem-
ber for North Lancashire, that Parliamentary reformer any
other great measure should not be a compromise between
Conservative and Liberal opinions. (Hear, hear.) The
happier the compromise the more successful will be the
measure ; and the great aim of whoever is to carry it must
be to bring forward a large, including, and satisfactory
measure which, on the whole, the great parties in the State
will agree ought to pass. In dealing with this question
last year we dealt with great boldness with the question of
the county suffrage. It is very well to deride our labours,
but I believe that the country takes a view of them very
different from that which the noble mover of the amendment
has been instructed to express to-night. I believe that the
country does justice to the large measure which we proposed
with regard to the county franchise, and recognises the diffi-
culties which we had to deal with. I know that more than
once it has been described in the great popular organ of
which hon. gentlemen opposite are very proud when it says
anything to their praise as the most enormous concession
that was ever made, and therefore the contemptuous lan-
guage which it is • convenient to adopt in this house will
never receive the sanction of the country. The question of
the county franchise had been frequently and maturely
discussed in this house. We made a proposition, and we
met many objections which we thought might be urged to
it, by countervailing ptoposals, modifying and mitigating its
application. However you may object to them, they were,
after all, only conditions mitigating or modifying our origi-
nal proposition. The question of the borough franchise was
not in that condition of maturity. Until the last great de-
bate, that question has never been grappled with in this
house. It has never been brought forward by persons of
any eminence, nor has it at any time attracted or com-
manded much attention. Well, in that direction we pro-
ceeded very cautiously, as you must do with that part of a
subject for which the public mind is not so ripe as for
the other. By our measure we proposed to introduce the
middle classes to their share of the county constituency,
and the working classes to their share of the borough con-
stituency by means of a variety of franchises. I am per-
fectly ready to admit on the part of the Government that
that proposition was not favoured by the house, nor was
it sufficiently favoured by the country to be one upon
which we can insist. The question of the borough
franchise must be dealt with, and it must be dealt
with with reference to the introduction of the working
classes. We admit that that has been the opinion of
Parliament, and that it has been the opinion of the coun-
try, as shown by the gentlemen who have been returned
to this house. We cannot be blind to that result. We do
not wish to be blind to it. We have no prejudice against
the proposition. All that we want is to assure ourselves
that any measure that we bring forward is one required by
the public necessities and will be sanctioned by public ap-
probation and support ; and therefore we are perfectly pre-
pared to deal with that question of the borough franchise
and the introductian of the working classes by lowering the
franchise in boroughs, and by acting in that direction with
sincerity ; because, as I ventured to observe in the debate
upon our measure,' if you intend to admit the working
classes to the franchise by lowering the suffrage in boroughs
you must not keep the promise to the ear and break it to the
hope. The lowering of the suffrage must be done in a man-
ner which satisfactorily and completely effec is your object,
and is at the same time consistent with maintaining the in-
stitutions of the country. So, I maintain, that not merely
with regard to the borough franchise, but with regard to
the whole question of the redistribution of seats, we are not
bound by the proposition which we made last year, any
more than the noble lord must be bound by the several pro-
positions which he has made. (Hear.) I have two mea-
sures of the noble lord, which are perfectly distinct as re-
gards the distribution of seats ; one in which I find group-
ing, and in the other absolute disfranchisement.' I find in
one a scale of disfranchisement totally different from that
one which the noble lord promulgated upon the eve of the
general election. Why are we, in dealing with this ques-
tion, to be precluded from the same freedom and the same
Parliamentary privilege as the noble lord and his followers?
On the contrary, sir, I maintain that we are perfectly free
to deal with this question as we think is best for the country.
It is in our opinion best for the country that a measure of Par-
liamentary Reform should be brought forward which is of as
conclusive a character as human circumstances will admit of.
To obtain that result it must meet all those fair demands
'which are now recognised, and which the opinion expressed
by the general election has stamped withpublic approbation.
I say nothing as the form in which that public sentiment
may be developed. Of course, I will not speak in detail of
a measure not now to be brought before the house ; but I
claim for her Majesty's Government the right to deal Ncr','Eh
the question of Parliamentary reform, not fettered or 'ham-
pered by the proposition which they made in tio.e last ses-
sion, any more than the noble lord has been by his own
proposals, but to deal with it in a large, liberal, and con-
clusive manner. (Hear, hear.) I have ventured to touch
on all the points on which the noble lord the member for
North Lancashire has based his grounds for a vote of want
of confidence. I think I have shown to the house that they
are flimsy, and feeble, and illusive—that the noble lord has
not entered into that detail or established those principles
that could justify this new Parliament in coming to so
grave a decision. I have ventured to point out to the house
the principles on which our foreign and domestie policy are
established. Our foreign policy will continue to be founded
on peace as the great principle we mean to encourage, and
our domestic policy on the principle of progress. (Cheers.)
Upon these principles our policy will rest, and we ask from
this new House of Commons nothing but constitutional
confidence. (Cheers.) We do not pretend to possess, and
we do not aspire to possess, the obedience of disciplined
legions, who, to use the expression of an eminent Liberal,
are ready to vote that black is white to support the Go-
vernment. (Hear, hear.) That is not the kind of support
we seek to obtain ; but we believe that we do possess the
constitutional confidence of this house, and that it will not
take the earliest opportunity, on grounds so frail and flimsy
as have been stated, to consent to adopt one of the gravest
amendments that can possibly be offered, viz., an amend-
ment on the answer to her Majesty's gracious Speech, and
which declares that the house has no confidence in the ad-
visers of the Crown. Nov, sir, after this fmnk.and full
analysis of our views, and this explicit declaration of the
policy that we intend to pursue, and on which our measures
will be founded, let me ask the house, what does this end in?
It ends in a personalquestion. (Cheers and counter cheers.)
I do not object to that. I do not pretend for a moment that
in Parliament we should avoid such questions. It is possible
that our policy may be a sound policy, but that those who
are carrying it on are incompetent, and therefore I admit
that the personal question is a fair ground to take up on a
vote of want of confidence. (Hear, hear.) I will not, there-
fore, shroud myself and colleagues under our measures or
our policy; I will meet the objections which may be raised
on the ground of personal efficiency. (Hear.) This is neces-
sarily and naturally the most delicate and embarrassing
thing which a man can be called on to do ; but we have to
do many things in this house that are embarrassing, and to
meet many difficulties that are delicate, and I will not shrink
from this the most difficult part of the fluty which I have to
discharge. (Cheers.) In old days, in the good old times, I
should have had no difficulty in judging who were our rivals
and who were to be our successors. (Hear.) I might look
to the bench opposite and there see the noble lord the leader
of the Opposition and the distinguished colleagues of his
former Administration and his present cares, and without
any great personal arrogance, and without any intrusion of
personal and egotistical pretensions on the part of myself
and my colleagues I might carry on some comparison be-
tween the two bodies, with reference to the noble lord's late
administration and his late acts, his general conduct and
his final failure. (Cheers.) I might, as they did in those
days, say the best I could for ourselves and the worst for
them. (A laugh.) But then we no longer live in those
good old constitutional times. I hardly know who are our
rivals, still less do I know who are to be our successors.
(Hear.) If it is the noble lord and his friends I might con-
trast his policy with ours, his failures with ours, and make
out a ease upon which the house might adjudicate. (Hear.)
But then the noble lord, who lives not in the good old days
of constitutional rivalry, but in the days of reconciled sec-
tions—(a laugh)—will tell the house, " You cannot judge• of
my resources by the gentlemen who are sitting near me;.
others will come to their aid, and by their unquestioned
abilities, and their varied experience, and with the bright
evidence of their triumphant careers I shall form an Admi-
nistration which will put you out, as the glorious sun does
a farthing rushlight—(laughter)—and the whole country
will immediately see that they have a strong government,
entitled to their indulgence." (Cheers.) There is also the
nmembers of
I wsebeethere have
noble lord below the gangway. 'Let me look below the gang-
way. [Lord John Russell here took off his hat and bowed,
amiden t cheersem brs and
been servants of the Crown, and who I know are taking a
very active share in meetings and proceedings out of the
house. In the days of our youth Willis's Rooms were
managed by patronesses. (Laughter.) The distinguished
assemblies that met within those walls were controlled by a
two
og of
and frequently
moste emi-
nent
admixture of dowagers and youthful beauties—young
reputations and worn celebrities—and it was at once the
pride of society and the object of ambition for all to enter.
(Laughter.) Now Willis's Rooms are under the direction
of patrons, and there are two of those patrons below the
gangway. (Laughter.) They are the noble lord the meipber
for the City of London and the right hon. gentleman the

member for North Wiltshire, who have signed the vouchers
for the new contract. (Laughter.) They are two of the
most eminent statesmen who are to form this strong Go-
vernment before whose celebrity we are to be extinguished.
We have some experience of those great statesmen. We know
how the noble lord conducts negotiations. -(Laughter.) We
know how the right hon. gentleman conducts war. (Laugh-
ter.) You say that we have failed in our negotiations, and
that we cannot be trusted in the event of possible war.
Will the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman help you
much ? (Cheers and laughter.) I cannot presume to pursue
the research. There was a time when I thought the burn-
ing eloquence of the hon. member for Birmingham might
have been, heard on the Treasury bench ; but he seems to
me to have yielded up those claims which once were vindi-
cated with that uncompromising eloquence that all admire,
and some fear. (Hear.) Ido not know whether, if we were
at war, the hon. member for Birmingham would pursue it
with the same vigour with which he engages in domestic
questions at home. (Hear.) lam not yet satisfied where the
materials of that Government that is to conduct negotia-
tions with such ability, and prosecute war with such
efficiency, are to be found. (Hear.) With regard to this
side of the house, I can only say with sincerity and truth
—and I am sure 1 speak the sentiments of all my col-
leagues—that I have never for a moment put forth any per-
sonal claims to stand in the way of others, taking their
places on this bench, more willing and more able to advo-
cate the views of their party and to serve the Queen.
(Hear.) I say for myself and for my colleagues that we
should not for a moment consider it a personal sacrifice,
but that we should rather consider it our personal duty to
retire from the positions we fill in the Government if
any gentlemen on this side care to challenge them and
to fill them. (Hear, hear.). I have at all times been so
anxious to see the efficiency of the public service studied
and the interests of a great political party, the existence of
which I believe to be advantageous to the country, pre-
served, that I have ever been ready to waive my own per-
sonal claims. (Hear, hear.) As to charges against our
incompetency, so far as the other side of the house is con-
cerned, I have not yet good evidence that it would be sup-
plied to the satisfaction of the country. (Hear, hear.) So
far as this side of the house is concerned, rivals may arise,
and I have only to say that if worthy they will be most
cordially received and supported. (Hear, hear.) No doubt
it is much to be regretted that from the great dislocation
of parties in this country, and the peculiar state of things
that has obtained in this house the area of selection for the
public service is mere limited than we could desire. But
that is not the fault of the party who fill these (the Mini-
sterial) benches. Whatever may be the fault of the Tory
party, it is not a federation of great families. (Cheers.)
The Cabinet of Lord Derby, whatever its faults, was not
established on an exclusive basis. (Cheers.) Wherever
there was ability it was recognised, and if all could not be
placed in the positions they were competent to fill, every
one on these benches was conscious that men were preferred
because they were thought to be worthy the offices con-
ferred upon them. (Hear, hear.) If, then, there is no
ground to believe'that any body of men on the other side of
the house are more competent to carry on affairs or ready to
take our places, and if on this side of the house the state of
feeling be what I have described, and that competent men
are ever sure to be cordially received and supported, I am
not sure that the country would gain much by the return of
noble lords and hon. gentlemen opposite. (Hear, hear.)
I have seen for a long time a tendency in this house to in-
crease the area from which individuals may be selected for
the publicservice. The more you settle these long contro-
verted questions which have foryears embarrassed the legis-
lation of this house, the more you will remove the obstacles
to that great result. If this question of a reform of Parlia-
ment were settled—and after all it is a question on which
all men may agree, with few exceptions—l see no obstacle
any longer to an expansion of the area from which indi-
viduals may be selected for the service of her Majesty's
Government. On this side of the house there is no preju-
dice of the kind which may have prevented many a worthy
member from filling his proper place under an educated
section. Provided we are agreed on the main line of policy
the only object we desire on these benches is that the ablest
men on all sides may be so employed, and the tendency of
our legislation for many years has been to remove those
difficulties—often only conventional difficulties—which pre-
vented the adoption of that more increased area of selection
to which I have adverted. I hope in the course of time, if
we are so deficient, as we are by our rivals, known and un-
known, that others may be attracted to our standard by the
recognition of their merits, feeling they are dealing with a
party who repudiate that exclusive principle which may
prevail in other quarters. I trust, therefore, the house will
not hastily adopt the amendment which has come from one
who, though I wish to speak of him in terms which his first
effort in the house to-night fairly deserves, represents
exactly that limited and exclusive party who made the
federation of great families the only source from which the
public service might be recruited. (Cheers.) The course
they have taken to -night has been, I think, a too eager one.
I think it would have been as well if they had paused and
taken another/ occasion than the Address to the Crown.
But Ido not complain of it, and on this ground. It is of
paramount importance at this moment that the decision of
this house should not be delayed. (An ironical cheer.) I
speak with the most solemn conviction of the truth of what
I have stated. I know that when I adverted to that sub-
ject at the beginning of my observations there were some
mechanical cheers from some unknown quarter. (A laugh.)
All. I can say to the individual, or individuals, from whom
those exclamations escaped is that they are at least relieved
from the great responsibility which rests on the advisers of
the Crown. It is of paramount and vital importance that
the decision of this house should not be delayed, if possible,
for four-and-twenty hours. (An ironical laugh from the
Opposition side, answered by counter-cheers.) Why should
you seek to delay it Woes not every member of this house
fully comprehend the issue ? It is not merely for the ad-
vantage of the public service ; it is for the advantage of the
kingdom and for the best interests of the Crown and of
Europe that this question should be settled, and settled
immediately. (Cheers.) If it is decided against us, I shall
accept the decision without a murmur. If I sit on those
(the Opposition) benches, I shall give our successors, and
my colleagues will do the same—l am sure I may answer
for all who honour me with their confidence in this house
=we shall give to our successors—provided they pursue, as
I feel sure they will, a constitutional course on home affairs,
and with respect to foreign affairs evince all that zeal and
devotion which even the immediate circumstances of the
hour require—that support which every patriot is proud to
afford the Ministers of the country when a great emergency
prevails. (Cheers.) But if, on the other hand, this new
Parliament shall be of opinion that the amendment which
has been brought forward to-night is not one that is just,
or justified, on us will remain, both as regards our domestic,
but especially as regards our management of our foreign
relations, as great a weight, as grave a duty, as awful a re-
sponsibility
as ever devolved on the shoulders of any Go-
vernment ; but from that duty and from that responsibility,
however grave and however awful, we do not slirtnk.
(Loud and long-continued cheers.)
Viscount BURY supported the amendment. The, Govern-
ment had put into the mouth of her Majesty tb'e expression
of a hope that the dissolution would be suck as to give her
the benefit of the counsels of a Ministry which possessed
the confidence of the house and the co ;retry. That was the
challenge thrown down, and they
-ad a right to take it up.
For himself, he disclaimed all party motives and feelings
whatever in the matter, brst he wished that the question
might be brought to an eP:rly issue. (Hear, hear.)

SCENT
IN THE HOUSE.
[When the nob",e lord resumed his seat there was a dead
silence, and n° non. men:ll)er showed any outward " sign" of
the slightv,i inclination within him to speak. The Speaker,
after solemn pause—during which Lord John Russell
exbfoited much anxious restlissness—then proceeded to
`.•ead the address, and subsequently the amendment. Lord
John Russell now started from his place, and with a hasty
step moved from his seat below the gangway to that
occupied by Lord Palmerston, in Opposition, exactly
facing the Ministerial bench. Seating himself by the noble
lord, he conferred with, and apparently took counsel
from him, and then hurried back to his seat. Silence still
prevailing, and no hon. member showing any " sign"
to speak, the noble lord again hastily left his seat, and
proceeded to one of the back Opposition benches, where he
first pulled one member by the button, and then another,
but none would speak. A titter now ran through thehouse,
which was entirely denuded of her Majesty's ministers—not
one of them being at this time in his place—and Lord John
being unsuccessful, returned again to his place, where he
tried Mr. Mellor, Q.C., and that learned gentleinan, amidst
the titter which had now swelled into a downright laugh,
rose to the rescue. The scene excited much curiosity and
speculation, indicating, it was supposed, a disposition in
some quarters to bring the questions in issLe to a division
without further.discussion.)
Mr.MELLOR accordingly rose, and prevented an abrupt
termination of the debate. He condemned the dissolution
of the late Parliament, contending that even the language
which the Government had advised her Majesty to use in
addressing the Parliament that day showed the unjustifi-
ableness of the dissolution. He had been returned by a
large constituency mainly to say on their parts that they
had no confidence in Lord Derby's Government, and to op-
pose it. He had no confidence in the fine promises which
had just been made to the house as to a new Reform Bill.
Even if the Government were sincere in those promises,
their new Reform Bill would most probably be no better
than their late Reform Bill, which was condemned by every
one in the house that was not a member of the Government.
It was impossible to abstain for any length of time from
giving the verdict of want of confidence contained in the
amendment, and he for one should gladly go into the lobby
to record his vote against the Government at the earliest
possible moment.

Some minutes having elapsed, during which no honour-
able member appeared desirous to address the house,
Mr. HUGESSEN length rose. He said that he had
come down with very little idea of speaking on the import-
ant subject under debate; but the singular silence which
prevailed on theppposite benches—a silence which afforded
one of the best proofs of the compact nature of the body—
compelled him to perform the somewhat difficult task of
folowing speakers who had advanced arguments whichhad
as yet been unanswered, and of endeavouring to add to
the proofs which had been adduced of the incapacity of
Ministers—an incapacity which, although they were not
ready to admit, they were so slow to deny. (Hear,
hear.) Upon a subject of such gravity as a vote of confi-
dence or no confidence in the Government he believed that
the country would not be satisfied unless the eminent
statesmen who occupied a leading position in that house
explained the reasons which actuated them in the vote that
they were about to give. The right hon. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer,in his defence of the Ministry,
had attacked the gentlemen who sat opposite, and had
denied as an impudent fabrication the report that Lord
Derby had subscribed £20,000 to a certain Lind for elec-
tioneering purposes. He was glad to hear the denial, but
the country was not by such a disclaimer to be cheated out
of its conviction that means had been resorted to at the last
election which had not been had recourse to on former oc-
casions. The Government were very much mistaken if
they thought that this subject was to pass away in oblivion,
for he believed that before many weeks elapsed there would
be statements made by men of greater influence than him-
self which would carry conviction to the breasts of the
auditors. With regard to the dissolution he looked upon it
as an act of positive ingratitude—ear, and " Oh! oh I")—
for an amount of forbearance had been exhibited by Parlia-
ment towards the Government which was almost unpre
cedentqd in English history. It was because he believed
the Government were not worthy of the confidence of the
house that he would vote for the amendment of the noble
lord, and he might say that the penal dissolution which had
been inflicted on the house was of itself sufficient to deprive
glom of confidence in the Government. (Hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER would leave those who wished to get
into office and those who wished to retain office to discuss
the amendment before the house. He would speak of a
more important matter—the defences of the country. (A
laugh.) He was glad to find that the naval force of
the country was to be increased, and that the report
of the Naval Commissioners was to be acted upon.
He was glad also that the Government had issued
their proclamation offering the bounty to seamen,
though he regretted. that, as yet, it had not produced the
desired result. They had not yet been able to get more
than 3,000 men, and he contended that the bounty ought
to have been offered long ago. Of the 3,000 men who had
been got,. not above 7f per cent. were seamen. He re-
commended the Government to issue another proclamation

setting forth, that in the event of war, the bounty would
be given to the seamen who were now employed. He be-
lieved that France had at this moment a larger force in
commission than we had. The First Lord of the Admiralty
shook his head at this statement. He hoped that the right
hon. baronet w id be able to show the house the numbe
of ships in commission in both countries, so that our naya.
strengt., . as compared with that of France, might be accu-
rately known. The First Lord of the Admiralty ought to
tell the house at once what the prospects were of our being
able to maintain a much larger fleet than we had at present.
There was said to be an engagement or understanding be.
tween France and Russia ; and the house ought to have
some information from the Government as to the state of
the Russian fleet at present, in reference to the possibility
of a movement in the Baltic as the war developed itself.
We had the means of manning 12 sail-of-the-line with our
coastguard and c3ast volunteers, but we had not at the pre-
sent moment ships to put them into. He admitted, how-
ever, that that was a part of the service to which we ought
not to have recourse, except in the greatest emergency. The
hon. and gallant admiral cited the remarkable speed with
which the great bulk of the French army was recently con-
veyed from. Marseilles to Genoa, as belying the taunt that
the French made bad sailors. It was worth the while of
the Government to bear that fact in mind, because it went
to prove that in the event of a war with France we should
have to contend against an enemy who knew his business
perfectly well. If the Russians sent a fleet to sea—which
they usually did every summer—if they sent 16 or 20 sail-
of-the-line into the North Sea, the funds, which went down
the other day at the mention of a secret treaty between
France and Russia, would fall twice as much as soon as it
was known the Russian fleet had set sail. If the Govern-
ment had not men enough in the dockyards let tkem enter
mere, so as to get a strong fleet prepared, and then every
person would feel secure, and satisfied that Government
were doing all they could do.
After the hon.' and gallant member sat down there was
a short pause, and cries of " Divide" continued on the
Ministerial benches.

Mr. J. :WILSON said it was not necessary for him to
justify the bringing forward of the present motion, because
it had been admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
himself that it was not only a fair and proper motion, but
that, under all the circumstances of the case, it was a
necessary motion. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the
state of the finances, there was no doubt that the lastpublic
accounts represented that they were in a comparatively
flourishing condition. He was prepared to show, on the
contrary, not only that that was not the fact, but that,
during the past year, the Government had been pursuing an
exceedingly dangerous course. They had, in fact, reversed
the financial policy of their predecessors by allowing nearly
three millions of direct war taxation upon income and tto-
perty to expire, while fhqi had retained" three millions of
indirect taxation upon tea and sugar, which ought to have
been allowed to expire. He condemned the conduct of the
Government in relation to the Cunard 'contracts, which they
had renewed, contrary, he said, to the regulations in force,
and contrary to the recommendations of the committee who
had sat upon the subject. He hoped that the Government
would give some explanation on this subject before the de-
bate closed, as the rumours in circulation were very detri-
mental to the reputation of the Executive. Amidst loud
cries of " Question, question," the hon. gentleman proceeded
to say that it was the question when he could show that the
expenditure of the country last year was a million more than
was anticipated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He
hoped the course the Government was about to pursue
would be a course of strict neutrality, and more strict than
their actions and expressions would lead ono to believe.
Mr. D. SEYMOUR said the question now at issue was
not the duty on Irish spirits, the merits of the west coast of
Ireland, the distance between Cork or Galway and Liver-
pool, or the subsidies of rival lines of steamers—(cheers)—
and he protested against the course which the hon. member
for Devonport had adopted in occupying the time of the house
with such paltry details. (Oh, oh, and Hear, hear.) Were
they or were they not at that moment deciding ihe fate of a
powerful Ministry and the dearest interests of the country ?
He (Mr. D. Seymour) was an independent member of that
house. (Oh, oh, and laughter.) Yes, he repeated it fearlessly,
an independent member. (Renewed laughter.) He had goxe
down to a great constituency, without hereditary or other
influence, but addressed himself simply to the question of
reform, and upon that question he had been sent to this
house. (Cheers.) He had come here unpledg,ed, but de-
termined in his heart of hearts to support that which he
believed would best conduce to the interests of reform. The
question had been asked to-night, where was the Solicitor-
General ? Could anything be more absurd. The Solicitor-
General was an eloquent and distinguished man, and he was
too good a lawyer not to know that it was not for those who
had to prove a negative to speak first, but that the onuspro-
bandi rested upon those who, in a crisis like the present,
met the Government with a resolution such as that now be-
fore the house. (Cheers.) He protested against the here-
ditary leaders of the Liberals assuming that he and other
gentlemen on that side of the house who held the same in •
dependent opinions—(oh, oh, and laughter)—were prepared
to follow them like a flock of sheep across the floor of the
house. (Loud cheers.) The noble lord the member for
Tiverton and the noble lord the member for London said
that the Government of the Earl of Derby were not entitled
to the confidence of the house and the c ountry; and not-
withstajiding the Government pledged themselves in the
Speech from the Throne, and through the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to-night, that they were prepared to bring
in a substantial and honest measure of reform next session,
those noble lords cried, " Out with them, without a trial and
without fair play"—(shouts of Oh ! from the opposition ;
met by cheers from the Ministerial benches). The Govern-
ment of Lord Derby had made certain promises relative to
the question of reform, and had been true to them. They
had laid a bill upon the table which recognised the great
principle of giving to the intelligence of the country a
greater share in the representation. (Oh, oh, and cheers.)
He did not mean to say, as an independent Liberal—(oh)—
that he was satisfied with the details of that measure, but
certainly it recognised the principle for which he contended,
and the Liberals were offered more by the Government than
they were by gentlemen on their own side of the house, If,
however, the Government did not propose to give enough,,what were Lord John Russell and Lord Palmerston pre-
pared to give? (Cheers.) He hoped the noble lords, be-
fore asking him as an independent member—(ironical cheers
and laughter)—to give an unfair, un-English, and factious
vote—(cheers)—would redeem their conduct by putting
their issue upon a constitutional and intelligible basis, and
telling the house how far they were prepared to go them-
selves. (Cheers.) He must say that he sympathised deeply
with the noble lord the member for London--(a laugh)—
who, in his present position, reminded him of the lines of
Moore—.

"One morn at Eden's crystal gate
A Teri sat disconsolate."
(Loud laughter.) If, then, the noble lord were admitted
within the gates of office, would he give them a good Re-
form Bill ? Unless the leaders of the Liberal party were
prepared to answer that question in the spirit in which he
had put it, he for one should give his vote heartily and sin-
cerely to the Government. (Cheers, cries of. "oh 1" and
laughter.)

sir. LAING could not help thinking that a change of
ministry would be more likely to entertain that alliance or
good understanding with France which he believed to be
the keystone of the permanent peace of Europe, and essen-
tial to the true interests of/civilisation. He therefore could
not hesitate to follow his old leaders on the old principles
of reform, peace, and non-intervention. (Cheers.)

Lord PALMERSTON, who was received with cordial
cheering, said—Sir, I think if any man could doubt whether
the motion of my noble Mend, calling on the house to ex-
press their want of confidence in the Government, be justi-
fied by the situation of the Government, the course of the
debate this evening would afford him the most conclusive
proof that it is so justified; for how can the house have
confidence in a government and a party who have no con-
fidence in themselves ? (Cheers and laughter.) How can
the house have confidence in the Government of a party
who, boasting as they do of their numbers, cannot find more
than one advocate who will dare to come forward on this
occasion, lito far as the debate has yet proceeded, to
defend their cause, and whose silence upon this
occasion is like letting judgment go against them by
default—(cheers)—and is the most conclusi ce avowal that
they are not deserving of the confidene of the house?
(Cheers.) Sir, I admit that if one champion alone was to
fight their battle—if the rest of the army were so timid sr so
weak and powerless that they could not dare to enter the
arena—they made a good choice in their champion. qi
Pergarna dextra defendi posset, no doubt the right hand of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have been sufficient
But those who heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer must
have felt that if the rest of the Government had nothing to
say in opposition to the amendment which had been moved,
that speech, eloquent as it was, and full of agreeable jokes
and disagreeable reflections upon one and another, was
wholly insufficient on this occasion to meet the motion
which had been made by my noble friend so ably, and so
well seconded by the hon. member for Middlesex. I must
say that I think it the most extraordinary spectacle that,
has ever occurred in the history of Parliament that a Go-
vernment, charged in the face of Parliament as being un-
deserving of the confidence of Parliament and of the coun-
try, should have sat silent as they have done on this occa-
sion. (Hear, hear.) You 'would have thought that man
after man would have risen on that side, that even the few
remaining members of the Cabinet, deserted though they
forwardu d u ot
which
his greatar arraigned
ed
mu-
be by two of their most respected and distinguished
ePrethsseed co
col-
leagues,iationto wdeofuelndastand justifyillhav
by the motion of my noble friend. (Cheers
But, sir,it
seems that they are most anxious to concl
e this debate.
They entreat the house to take them upon trust, for argu-
ment we have not been called upon to hear from them ;
they have nothing to S for themselves,except, 4, For
.
Heaven's sake, let the debate be as let
short as possible ;
us come to a division to-night, for we have got our
friends up. (Laughter.) Do not talk about our
conduct—the less said about it the better ; for Heaven's
sake do not discuss our motives, but come to the vote,
and then afterwards, if we have the majority, you
may talk about them as much as you like." (Cheers and
laughter.) Well, this is a very ewe matter to be disposed
of in that light and airy manner. The question is, whether
the administration of one of the greatest countries in the
world is or is not deserving of the confidence of Parliament
and the country ? That is not a question at any time to be
dealt with in that light and easy manner in which it is
dealt with by the gentlemen on the other side ; but least of
all is that question to be so treated at a moment when the
flames of war are raging in Europe ; when no man feels
certain how far this country may or may not, under the
guidance of those who at present rule, be involved in it; I
say, when great European interests, and great British and
national interests are at stake, I thick it is disgraceful for
a Government to decline self-vindication. (Cheers.) Now,
I say that upor.i every ground the house ought to come to
the vote that is proposed. I think the manner in which
the Government was formed—l think the course which the
Government have pursued—l think their mistakes and de-
faults in domestic legislation—l think their errors in
foreign policy—l thihk the course they took in regard to
the dissolution—l think upon all these grounds the house
is justified in withholding from them that confidence
without which a Government cannot and ought not to
exist. (Cheers.) Sir, Ido not like to revert offensively,
to the events connected with the formation of the Govern-
ment ; but upon this occasion I must speak out. I say
they came into office by a Parliamentary
the
manoeuvre—
(cheers)—by a manoeuvre justified, perhaps, by
ordinary tactics of party, but which was not a foundation
upon which they could claim the confidence of the
country.
There were a certain number—l believe nearly one hundred
members—of the liberal party who differed
with the govern-
ment then in regard
to that bill against conspiracy and mur-
der. I lamented that they took a different view from that
which the government had adopted, but they had a right to
take that view, and with the opinions which they enter-
tained they performed a public duty by voting against the
introduction of that bill. But what was the conduct of the
gentlemen opposite ? Did they disapprove of that measure ?
Did they not, on the contrary, in this house andin the other
house urge the government-to bring it forward—and did
they not, on the motion for the introduction of the.bill, to a
man, vote with the government for laying that bill upon the