The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-21 00:00:00

POOR LAWS.

Lord TE YN HAM rose to move for certain Returns under
the Poor Laws Act, and of the number of persons convicted
for having taken part in riots on the occasion of the introduc-
tion of the Poor Laws Amendment Bill within the last year.
His object in moving for these Returns was to show the un-
paralleled severity of the punishment inflicted upon the per-
sons convicted upon the occasion of their introduc-
tion into Kent. He complained that offences of a very
venial nature had been visited by most unprecedented punish-
ment. He cautioned Noble Lords opposite not to exasperate
the peasantry of England, for the time was fast approaching
when they would be obliged to call upon that very peasantry
for support and assistance ; and it was impossible they could
expect to receive that support, if they did not protect the rights
of the people.
The Marquis of CAMDEN begged to know ene object of
the Noble Baron in moving for these returns.
Lord TEYNHAM intended to found upon them an address
to his Majesty, praying for an inquiry into this business.
The Marquis CAMDEN thought it was for his Majesty's
Government to say whether they would accede to these returns
or not. The Noble Marquis entered into a history of the riots
to which the Noble Lord (Teynham) had alluded, and con-
tended that the authorities were fully justified in the course
they had taken, and they were in his opinion warranted in
supporting the administration of the laws. When these re-
turns were before their Lordships, he would be prepared to
show that there was not the slightest ground for the
charges of the Noble Baron—(Hear)—and that the general
feeling of the county of Kent, as exhibited in the proceedings
that had then taken place befcre the assembled magistrates,
was most satisfactory to the country at large.
Viscount DUNCANNON was not at first aware of the
circumstances to which the Noble Baron alluded, but from
the statement of the Noble Marquis opposite, he now knew
to what he alluded, and he could bear his testimony to the
forbearance and judicious conduct generally, which the Ma-
gistrates had adopted on that occasion.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") He thought from all the circumstances their
conduct had been characterized by too much forbearance.
The Duke of RICHMOND objected to the production
of these returns, and would feel it his duty to say "non- content"
if the motion was pressed to a division. He thought that
the magistrates were fully justified in the course they had
adopted. One of the persons imprisoned was a regular dis-
turber of the peace, who was going about from parish
to parish inciting the people to outrage. He trusted his
Majesty's Ministers would not consent to the production
of these Returns.

The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE agreed with his Noble
Friend (the Duke of Richmond) as to the view he took of
the conduct of the Magistrates of the county of Kent on that
occasion. He hoped the Noble Baron would not press the
motion to a division.

Lord TE YNH AM replied. He was determined to do his
duty, and would not be intimidated by any man.—(Laughter. )
He would call for these returns, he distinctly avowed, for the
purpose of founding an accusation against these Magistrates.
He avowed it—(Laughter)—he had never done anything in
an underhand manner, and if he stood alone he would press
the motion to a division.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but the motion
was negatived without a division.

PROTEST OF Mr. HOGG.

Viscount MELBOURNE said it was impossible that the
Report and Protest of Mr. Hogg, one of the Municipal Cor-
poration Companies, could be produced.
A NOBLE LORD suggested that it might be embodied in the
form of a petition, and in that way laid upon their Lordships'
table.

Viscount MELBOURNE thought that would be opening
a very wide door to complaints and remonstrances, and would
decidedly object to such a course.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said that the Gentlemen in
question dissented from his brother Commissioners, who had
been appointed by his Majesty to obtain certain information.
He wished to know whether he had not a good title to enter
his protest against the opinions entertained by his brother
Commissioners. Had the protest of Sir Francis Palgrave
been omitted it would have been of great loss, inasmuch as
the information it conveyed would have been lost. He thought
the cases similar.
Lord MELBOURNE made some remark which did not
reach us. He then said that he seen the Noble Baron (Lord
Lyndhurst) in his place be should have inquired whether a
criminal information against Mr. Hogg had not been moved
for in the Court of Exchequer ? He did not mean to say that
anything particular attached to it, as the Noble Lord (so we
understood) might have acted in the capacity of Counsel.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE thought it was advisable the
protest should be produced, as he had heard it contained the
disclosure of very important circumstances, closely connected
with the objects of the Commission.
Lord LYNDHURST thought that, in making a charge
against a respectable person, the Noble Viscount (Lord Mel..
bourne) should have ascertained the foundation on which it
rested. The exclusion of one Commissioner appointed by his
Majesty from those with whom it was intended he should act,
was, he thought, a most extraordinary proceeding.- He did
not state this from his own knowledge—he had it from Mr.
Hogg himself; and, stating it, he put it to their Lordships
to decide whether it was possible to regard as a complete and
satisfactory document a Report professing to come from a body
of Commissioners, but from which the opinions of one of the
most competent Commissioners were excluded.—( Hear.)
Lord SKELMERSDALE thought it was of the utmost
importance that they should have before them, before they pro-
ceeded to legislate upon the measure, all the evidence which
could be collected and. all the opinions which could be procured
from persons whom either inquiry or talent rendered compe-
tent to form one. It so happened that Mr. Hogg was one of
the Commissioners sent down to the part of the country with
which be was connected ; and, when he stated to their Lord-

ships that, in consequence of the refusal of the Commissioners
to embody in the general Report the opinions and evidence
contained in the particular Report sent in by Mr. Hogg, he
was in entire ignorance of the justice and policy of the mea-
sure as regarde the cases of several individual boroughs in
the county to which he alluded, he put it to the House whe-
ther he was not justified in calling for its production ?
Lord MELBOURNE denied that he had made any at-
tack, or even insinuation, on Mr. Hogg. All he had said
was, that a criminal information had been moved for; and
that was a proceeding so popular, and so generally under-
stood, that no imputation could result from its being stated
that it had been had recourse to.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE would not lose sight of the
report in question, and that he should take the most effectual
measures for having it speedily laid upon the table of the
House.

The Earl of DEVON fully concurred in the opinion that
the House was bound to have Mr. Hogg's report before it
proceeded to legislate on the measure about to be sent up to
them. The object of the Commission was to procure gene-
ral information, and that could not be procured unless all the
facts and circumstances to which the persons engaged had
directed their inquiries, were laid before them. In procuring
the report of Mr. Hogg there appeared to be some difficulty,
but the House was not without its remedy. The Home
Office not having the report in its possession, would be com-
pelled to return " nil" to an order for its production ; and it
then became their duty to consider if there were not other
means by which the information it contained might be got at.
The House of Lords had it in its power to appoint a Select
Committee to inquire into the facts connected with any mea-
sure upon which they were called upon to legislate.—( Hear,
hear.) Now, it appeared to him that the present was one of
the cases in which if they found it impossible to get the in-
formation of a perfect Commission, it would be their bounden
duty to institute such an inquiry.—( Cheers.)
After a few words from Lord \YHA RNCLIFFE, the con-
versation dropped.
Lord GREY had a petition to present relative to the sub•
ject which then occupied their Lordships' attention, and,
although it was somewhat after the proper time for offering
it, he trusted their Lordships would, under the particular cir-
cumstances, excuse his doing so. It was the petition of a
very numerous and respectable meeting at Newcastle-upon-
Tyne, presided over by the mayor of its Corporation, and its
prayer was, that their Lordships might pass the Bill for the
regulation of the municipal corporations of England and
Wales without in any wise impairing its beneficial provisions
or detracting from its efficiency. The petition was signed by
the mayor of Newcastle-upon-Tyne alone, but it was so
signed by him as Chairman of the meeting ; and, although,
according to the rules of their Lordships' House, it could
only be presented as the petition of the individual who had
signing it, he had authority to state that it might be consi-
dered as an expression of the sense and opinion of the district
in question as to the Bill to which it referred. He was
aware that the presentation of a petition, praying their Lord-
ships to pass a Bill not yet before them, was to a certain de-
gree irregular ; but as several petitions under like circum-
stances had been already received, and as, being under the
necessity of leaving town immediately, he would have no
other opportunity of presenting it, he trusted their Lordships
would have no objection to its receipt.—( Cries of " Go on,"
and " No, no.") If its presentation were objected to, he would
at once withdraw it and leave it in the hands of some Noble
Friend.—(" Go on.") He would, then, go on. The prayer of
the petition, he repeated, was, that their Lordships might be
pleased to pass unimpaired and unaffected the measure of Cor-
poration Reform about to be presented for their consideration.
The Noble Earl, having laid the petition on the table, then
proceeded to say that he was glad to have that opportunity of
declaring his hearty concurrence in and approbation of the
measure to which the petition alluded. He had long seen
with pain and anxiety the many abuses and anomalies existing
in the Corporation system of the kingdom, and it had been
for years his wish that a measure similar to that now before
the other House should become law. A Commission of In-
quiry having been appointed, a most rigorous investigation
took place, and the result of that investigation was that all
the abuses and anomalies alleged to exist were proved and
brought home. To the principle of the Bill he did not ex-
pect there would be any opposition.—(Hear, hear.) To the
details of the measure their Lordships would, no doubt, in
the exercise of their deliberative functions, give every atten-
tion ; and, considering them with every impartiality and jus-
tice, their object, he was persuaded, would be to pass the Bill
in such a manner as might best give effect to the great prin-
ciple in which it was framed, namely, that of giving to the se-
veral Corporations of England a good and permanent system
of Municipal government.--( Hear, hear.) If the Bill were
passed in its present form he was confident it was calculated
to meet the wishes of the people of England; but should their
Lordships, in their wisdom, thiuk proper to alter it, he sin-
cerely trusted their amendments would be directed by a de-
sire of extending and perfecting, rather than of impairing
the machinery by whieb the principle was to be called into
operation.—( Hear, hear.) He begged, in conclusion to offer
the petition to which he referred to their Lordship's con-
sideration.

After a few words from the Earl of ABERDEEN, Lord
SEAGRAVE. and the Earl of SHAFTESBURY,

Earl GREY would withdraw the petition for the pre-
sent, and have it presented on a future evening by some Noble
Friend.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE wished to know what
course the Government intended adopting with the Bill when
it reached the House ? In his opinion it would be impossi-
ble to proceed with it until the requisite information and es-
pecially Mr. Hogg's report before them. Was it intended
that, if brought up to-morrow evening, it should at once be
read a first time, or did Government mean to wait for Mr.
Hogg's report ?
Lord HOWARD of EFFINGHAM rose to order. There
was no question before the House, the petition having been
withdrawn.—( Hear, hear, and cries of " Order of the Day.")
The Earl of FALMOUTH—I appeal to the Noble Lord
on the Woolsack.—(Great laughter, in which the Vice-Chan-
cellor joined, and renewed cries of " Order of the Day.")
All that he wanted to deny, and that in the most emphatic
terms be could use, was that the Noble Earl was justified in
saying the abuses alleged to exist in the corporation system of
England, were proved by the Report of the Commissioners.
He could not suffer such a statement to go forth to the country,
without rising to protest against it.—( Hear, hear.) The con-
versation here dropped.
ROMAN CATHOLIC MARRIAGES BILL.

The Marquis of CL A NRICARDE rose to postpone the
second reading of the Roman Catholic Marriages Bill until
that day week. He was induced to do so, in consequence of
the absence of a Noble and Learned Lord. He, if present,
would, he knew, be anxious to take a part in the discussion.
The Noble Marquis then proceeded, in an extremely indis-
tinct tone of voice, to allude to the conversation which had
taken place on a former evening, upon the subject of the ap-
pointment of Mr. M'Dermott as one of the Commissioners of
Education in Ireland. We understood him on the part of Mr.
M'Dermott, and with his authority, to deny ever having made
use of the language attributed to him on that occasion, by a
Right. Reverend Prelate.
The Bishop of EXETER was happy in being able to sup-
port the statement he made on a former evening by some im-
portant documents, and as the observations of the Noble Mar-
quis gave him an opportunity to present them, he would at
once proceed to place them before their Lordships. The cir-
cumstances which gave rise to the speech in •question were
the following :—A Miss Bourke, a lady of 28 years of age,
residing at Castlerca, became a convert to the Protestant
Church ; and, dreading violence from the peasantry in cense-
quence, took the advice of a Magistrate (Major Baggot) as to
the best means of protecting herself. She was recommended
by that gentleman to place herself, until she could arrange to
leave the district, under the protection of the police constable
of the town, by occupying apartments in the barracks. This
advice she followed, and it was in consequence of her doing so
that the meeting, at which Mr. M'Dermott spoke the speech
in question, took place. Of the temper of that meeting—
and it was not sought to be denied that Mr. M'Dermott was
present—it would be sufficient for him to say that the Rev.
Robert Boyd, the Protestant Clergyman of tht district,
chancing to pass by at the time, was assailed by the mob, and
narrowly escaped from their violence.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
With respect to the speech made by Mr. M'Dermott upon
the occasion, he had but this to say, that the accuracy of
the report he (the Bishop of Exeter) referred to on a former
evening, did not rest on a single evidence. In the Roscom-
mon and Leitrim Gazette of the day it appeared as a reprint
from another journal, and attached to it was not only the name
of the reporter, Mr. Thomas Brooks, as vouching for its accu-
racy, but in a note was appended, in the form a letter, a cer-
tificate, signed by four persons, who attended the meeting,
namely, Messrs. Quin, Black, Kelly, and Blundell, in which
the parties signing pledged themselves that Mr. Brooks's re-
port contained a true statement of the scurrilous and abusive
language used at the meeting. In fact, the report of Mr.
Brooks was never doubted until it was mentioned by him (the
Bishop of Exeter) on a former evening in that House. For-
tunately, a copy of Mr. M`Dermott's speech, as so reported
and so vouched for, was now in his hands, and, without fur-
ther preface, he would read it to their Lordships. It was as
follows :—.

" As soon as he (William M'Dermott, Esq. ) took the chair,
he stated that The reason for their assembling there was to
present a memorial to the Lord Lieutenant, in order to
get the constabulary police broke for their interference in
controversial doctrines, and giving Bibles and tracts ; and,
finally, for their gallant Captain, contrary to his duty, making
a police-barrack an asylum for perverts, and a prison for ille-
gally detaining children from their parents ; therefore we
are assembled together in order to adopt measures to tame
their fanaticism. Gentlemen, the unhappy wretch (Miss
Bourke) who is the occasion of our assembling here to-day,
was seduced, or rather perverted, by that nefarious, puny, in-
significant legislator of Ballymor (a Magistrate, named Bag-
got. )—( Shouts of applause.) This fiend not only did this,
but he goes about with a tract in one hand and money in the
other, in order to accomplish his pestiferous ends ; he goes
further, for if he miss one of the children from the school he
takes the Bible in one hand and his sword in the other ; when
he goes in if he find none in the house he will pierce his
naked sword down through the bed.--( Shouts.) But, Gen-
tlemen, one would think that this nefarious wasp had some
wisdom in his head, and certainly, if we are to measure brain by
the circumference of the skull, he must be possessed of a very
extraordinary one.—( Shouts and clapping.) But, Gentle-
men, this insignificant wretch stood not alone in his endeavours
to raise a disunion in the minds.of the people ; for he has klow,
poor, grovelling, ill-coloured, demoniacal, clerical mounte-
bank, who was chased from diocese to diocese for his schism.
Gentlemen, this puny, ill-coloured runaway, wrote certain
letters, in which the Catholic religion is set up to ridicule ;
and, I say, my friends, from the authority of the Attorney- Ge-
neral, that any person ridiculing the religion of the people
should be brought to public trial, as a nuisance to society.

But, Gentlemen, our memorial will be before the Lord- •
Lieutenant in a few days, and, as he is a man of candour and_
honesty, wholly divested of prejudice, we will get a hearing.
Thank God, Goulburn is out ; if it were not so I would not '
stand here this day. While he was in, if we petitioned daily
none of them would be presented—but now we hope to be
heard, and are confident that we will bring one of the Kieg44
parsons to a sense of his duty—( Laughter)—and if possible
to have both captain and police broke. Gentlemen, we have
funds enough ' • we will set up schools in opposition to them
we will try all means to rebut their schools—and if we cannot
do it by these means, does any one think that seven millions
will be held in trammels, and thwarted in their purposes, by a
handful of men ?' "
He now would leave the matter entirely in their Lordships'
hands. He had felt it his duty to ask their Lordships if the
person who was capable of using such language was a fitting
person to hold the situation of Commissioner of Education le
Ireland ? And nothing havtng occurred to disprove the fie°
which justified him in submitting such a question, lie ago'
put it to them.—( Hear.)
After a few words from the Marquis of CLANRICARDS
(again inaudible), the subject was dropped.
IRISH COERCION ACT.
Lord GLE NGALCwished to know from the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government if it was intended to rene',
the Irish Coercion Act which, it would be recollected, world
expire on the Ist day of August next?
Lord MELBOURNE was understood to say that the Bi.l
_l
in question was only introduced in consequence of various sae
of disturbance and outrage in different parts of Ireland in 181
and 1832. The state of things had been in consequence niucli
improved, and it was therefore not thought necessary by the
Government to renew the measure in all its details. In 183A1
and 1832, a Committee of the House of Commons was require"'
to report upon the most effectual means of suppressing outrag2
in the Queen's County, and the measures recommended
that Committee it was intended to introduce.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of C L ANR IC ARDE asked if the Noble 1715"
count meant to say the law in Ireland was intended to be per
manently altered?
Lord MELBOURNE did not think that, upon that oe
casion, any statement of the present state of the county OS
necessary. It was certainly comparatively tranquil, but net,
so much so as to justify the Government in returning to the
old powers of the law. The object of the Government Would
be to, give the authorities in Ireland powers to tranquillise
the country, to be used when they might be deemed requisite.
Lord GLENGALL said it was most important that what-t
ever measure was introduced should, if required, be eft"
cious for the suppression of outrage and insubordinatiee.i
The Roman Catholic Priests had never more power than at
present.

SEAMEN ENLISTMENT BILL.
Lord AUCKLAND moved the second reading of this B I,
After a few observations from Lord COLVILLE the Br
was read a second time, and ordered to be committed onWe'y
nesday next.
Viscount DUNCANNON brought up the Report of tbe,
Commission of Inquiry into the Post-office.
Their Lordships then adjourned, at ten minutes past sevr'll.

LIST OF THE MAJC
Who voted for going into Committee on tl
chisement of Stafford

For the Motion..
Against it..
Adam, Admiral C.
Alston, Rowland
Baines, E.
Baring, F.
Bewes, T.
Blake, M. J.
Blunt, Sir C.
Bowring, Dr.
Brabazon, Sir W. J.
Bridgman Hewitt
Brodie, W. D.
Brotherton, J.
Campbell, Sir H.
Cavendish, lion. C.
Caylcy, E. S.
Chapman, M. L.
Clerk, Sir G., Bart.
Crawford. W. S.
Curteis,
Curteis, Major
Divett, E.
Donkin, Sir It.
Dundas, T.
Dykes, F. L.
Ebrington, Lord
Egerton, Sir P. de M.
Elphinstone, H.
Etwall, It.
Ewart,W.
Fellowes, Hon. N.
Gaskell, D.
Gladstone, W.

Bagot, Hon. W.
Buller, Sir J. Y.
Bullcr, E.
Chetwynd, Captain
Cole, Viscount
Davenport, J.
Fleetwood, H.
Gaskell, J. M.

Hardy, J.
Harland, W.
Hay, A. L.
Heneage, G. E.
Hindley C.
Howard, P. R.
Home, Joseph
Hurst, R. H.
Hutt, W.
Ingham, R.
Labouchere, H.
•Lennard, T. B.
Lennox, Lord J. G.
M'Cance, John
M‘Namara, W.
Marsland, H.
Murray, J. A.
O'Brien, C.
O'Loghlen, M.
Parrott, J.
Parry, 1 . J. P.
Pease, Joseph
Pechell, Captain
Pelham, C. A. W
Phillips, C. M.
Plumptfe, J. P.
Paulter, J. S.
Poyntz, W. S.
Price, Sir R.
Pryse, P.
Pryme, G.
Raphael, Sheriff*
MINORITY.
Goodricke, F. L. H.
Heathcote, R. E.
Houldsworth, I'.
Jones, Wilson
Kirk, P
Mackinnon, W. A.
Morgan, C. M. R.
Moseley, Sir 0.

IRITY
ie Bill for the Diefiln

98 ;

LIST
On the Amendment
trans]

19
Roche, D.
Rundle, J.
Ruthven, E. S.
Ruthven, E.
Sheldon, E. R. C.
Sheppard, T.
Spiers, A G.
Stanley, E. J.
Steuart, R. '
Strutt, E.
Stuart, Lord Jane!
Talbot, C. R.
Thompson Colen.s, -
°
Thornely, Thoulai,
Tooke, W.
Tracey, C. 14.
Troubridge, Str
Tulk, C. A. r
Tynte, C. J. K x
Tynte, C. K. K. •1
Vesey, Hon. T. t.
Wakley, Thonial
Wallace, R.
Warburton, li.
Wagon, R.
Westenra, J. C.
Wigney, I. N.
William., W. ,s 1
Wilson, Henry
Wynn, W.
Wyse, T. ,
Young, G, F.
Perceval, Colonlor
Rushbrooko co;
Sandon, Lord
Scott, Sir E. D. ,20
Vere, Sir C. as
PAIRED mil'.
Bruce, Lord E.
Chisholm, A.

Baldwin, Dr.
Blake, M. J.
Clements, Lord
Crawford, W. S.
Fitzsimon, C.
Fitzsimon, N.
Martin, T.

' OF THE MINORITY DO
that the Privilege of sending Member!
ferred from Stafford to Cork.
Martin, J. Roche. D.
Macnamara, W. Vigors, N. C. O.:.
Mullins, W. F. Westenra, Hon- J. v.
Nagle, Sir R. Westenra, lion.
O'Brien, C. TELLERS.
~,,
Rundle, John O'Connor Don oh
Roche, W. O'Brien, W. sol,*
•

SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE.

ADVICES, ARRIVALS, AND DEPARTURES A.. 1;
THE SCOTCH WHARFS, JULY 20. hp'
HOARE'S. DUNDEE AND PERTH STEAM-WHARF. AdfiCe '1".0
Dundee, Perth, and London Shipping Company's stearali
Perth, John Spink commander, arrived at Dundee thelii/
inst., •at six A.M.
HOARE'S WHARF.—Advices : the Banff and London :11 r
ping Company's smack Medora, Alexander Watson 1110:5T"
arrived at Banff the 11th inst., and the same Company's ''
Union, George Bruce master, sailed from Banff the 16th 1t;
with a general cargo for this wharf ; the Arbroath and L'O''
ter,
Shipping Company's smack Defiance, Peter Mill oaf. 0
arrived at Arbroath the 16th inst. ; the Blossom, Wil'iaff
West master, sailed from Banff the 16th inst., with a cargg
cattle, &c. ; and the Dundee, Perth, and London Shi
Company's smack London, Robert Abbott, master, sailed,
Dundee the 18th inst., with a general cargo, both for'
wharf. Arrivals : the John and Margaret, William Ross'nd
ter, from Wick; and the Courier, John Ross master, 627
Peterhead, both with general cargoes. No departures.
DOWNE'S WIIARF.—No advices. Arrival : the ItYverVef
and London Shipping Company's smack Inverness Pacje.
Robert Paton master, from Inverness, with a' general
No departures. •
CARRON WHARF.—No advices, arrivals, or departures. -11
MILLER'S WHARF.—Advises: the Leith and Edinblor
Shipping Company's smack Earl of Hopetoun, Davi
master, sailed from Leith for London the 17th inst. • sitro`a,
Aberdeen and London Shipping Company's smack' Ni7L,i,
James Phillips master, arrived at Aberdeen the 16th ies'.7cit
Arrival: the Leith and Edinburgh Shipping Company's swprill
Favourite, James Dickson master, from Leith, with a gen"
cargo. No departures.
LEITH AND GLASGOW WHARF.--No advises, arr.; va
departures. 01
LEITH AND BERWICK WHARF.—Advice : the Berwick
London Shipping Company's smack Ann, William Stestd,
master, sailed from Berwick the 17th inst., for this Whop
Arrival: the London and Leith Old Shipping Coreetj,
smack Ocean, Henry Johnston master, from Leith, "1
general cargo. No departures. g: