The Sun.
London, England, 1832-05-22 00:00:00

on this point, which we were unable to hear with accu
racy; but which confirmed him in his conviction that tl,
masters and superior classes would not be overwhelmed It:
the journeymen and in'erior classes With reference to
the argument of the Noble Baron, that it was desirable ti
retain the scot and lot-voters in some places, in order to
give the poorer classes more direct representation, be coule
not see the principle of such an arrangement; and with
respect to the practice, it was clear from the example re
Preston, and other places in which there was scot and for
voting, that it bad not the effect which the Noble Bairn
supposed ; but that Members for ouch places were fre-
quently returned by the influence of the higher classes.
When, however, the qualification came to be discussed,
that would he the time for entering more fully into the
consideration of that part of the subject. At present,
therefore, he would merely say, that he could not agree to
the Noble Barn's amendment.
Lord WYNFORD was persuaded that the Bill could
not he final ; that it ought not to be final. The effect of
it would he, to place all power in the bands of the manu-
facturing, and entirely to destroy the landed interest. Ot
378,000 persons at present duly qualified, the Bill would
exclude above 130,000, who were engaged in agricul-
ture. The moment the agriculturists found that this wag
the case, the discovery would no doubt be followed by a
great and just clamour on their part. The principles on
which it was withheld were equally absurd. Many
towns would he without representation, although posses-
sing three times the number of persons with a JO/.
qualification, tl an other towns which, according is the
Bill, were to he represented. After contending at some
length that the course which his Majesty's Government
proposed to pursue in their plan of enfranchisement would
he highly unjust, the Noble and Learned Lord said, that
instead of consenting to the amendment of the Noble Baron
(Ellenborough) for the omission of a portion of schedule
C, he thought it would be better to omit the whole of it,
so that they might be able to take a discussion on each
particular town which might be proposed to form a part
of such a schedule. He begged at the same time to ob-
serve, that he was thoroughly convinced it would be
better in all cases to give the enfranchised places two
Members instead of one. With respect to the nomina-
tion boroughs, he would contend that as it was de-
termined to get rid of the system of nomination, it was
their bounden duty to take care that no nomination boroughs
remained, still less that any should be created ; and
yet he believed he could prove that nomination boroughs
would be created by the Bill. One of these boroughs
(Huddersfield) had undoubtedly a very extensive popula-
tion, and a very thriving trade, but whatever might be its
wealth or its population, he believed it would be found that
all the houses in the town, with the exception of one, be-
longed to one individual, and that he would at all times he
able to influence the return of the representation. The
Commissioners in their report had distinctly admitted this
fact ; but under some vague kind of an opinion that a
place so large as Huddersfield would ultimately work out
its independence, they had not recommended the extension
of the boundaries of the borough so as to cure the defect.
Thee was another borough (Arundel) in which, although
the houses were held on very long leases, the holder could
not transfer his interest without the consent of the Noble
Proprietor. Now, this he (Lord Wynford) thought was
such a state of dependence as rendered the tenant subser-
vient to the purposes of the proprietor, and he intended
to propose an amendment with reference to it. The
Noble and Learned Lord concluded by repeating his ge-
neral objections to the clause, and expre,sing his anxiety
that the claims of every town should be fairly considered
on its separate merits. —( Heat.)
Lord WHARNCLIFFE, after going over a brief sum-
, mary of the course of the. debates on the Bill, said they
were now called on to consider, according to the proposi-
tion of the Noble Baron (Ellenborough), what boroughs
were to have enfranchisement, and what boroughs were
not to have enfranchisement ; and in order to have a
better understanding of the question, he should first read
the names of those places which, according to the Noble
Baron's proposal, were now to be omitted in schedule C.
The first was the town of Greenwich in Kent, the reason
for omitting which might be classed under the general
objection to the metropolitan representation; and the
next was the town of Devonport, which, as Plymouth was
to retain two Members, might, they apprehended, share
very well with it in representation. The four next which
they proposed to omit, were Finsbury, Lambeth, Maryle-
bone, and the Tower Hamlets. Three of them would,
in the event of a division of the county of Middlesex, have
their interests fully represented by its Members ; and he
did not see any reason why the residents of Lambeth, nu-
merous as they were, could not have the privilege of
voting for the borough of Southwark. The next places 1,
which they proposed to leave out of the schedule were
Brighton and Cheltenham. He (Lord Wharneliffe) Lad
really never seen or heard an argument why these towns
were to have a preference over others in the privilege of
choosing representatives. If the franchise depended on
population, he could understand it ; but those who denied
that, had never been able to give a satisfactory reason fur
what they pi oposed. The next places to he omitted
were Oldham, Rochdale, and Salford, in the county
of Lancaster, all of which would, they considered, be
sufficiently represented by their immediate neighbours.
Warrington they proposed to join with Blackburn, and
they saw no reason why Chatham should not return
Members in conjunction with Rochester and Stroud.
The next place to be omitted was Dudley, which, as
its trade and interests were precisely the same as Wol-
verhampton, would be sufficiently represented by the Mem-
bers for that place. The next town was Gateshead. He
(Lord Wharncliffe) had some acquaintance with both
Gateshead and Newcastle, of which Gateshead was a mere
suburb, enjoying the same trade, and possessing precisely
the same inter.sts; and he certainly could not see the pro-
priety of giving it a separate Alember. Then came the
town of Wakefield. Every one knew that Wakefield for-

merly was the centre of a very extensive manufactory;
but all York also knew that trade existed no longer : and
the only reason that could be given for placing it in the
schedule was, that it had a considerable trade in corn.
Walsall was in the same situation as Dudley, and they pro-
posed to unite it with Wo!vcrhampton ; and Whitby,
although it formerly had a considerable portion of the
whale trade, was now in such a state of decline that it
had no claim to the representation of a separate interest.
Having thus mentioned the places to be left out of the
schedule, the Noble Lord proceeded to read those Boroughs
of the schedule which they proposed should remain ; and
among these they undoubtedly included Huddersfield, not
withstanding• the observatians of the Noble and Learned
Lord near him (Wynford). Ile believed it would be
found, that although Huddersfield did belong to au in-
,ividual (Sir John Raonsden), that gentleman would have
very little influence in the return of the representative.
Huddersfield, too, was a place of great wealth, of in-
creasing importance, and the seat of the manufacture of
a particular species of cloth in great consumption.
Having thus gone through the names of the places
which they wished to place in the schedule to have two
Members each, he would say, i❑ all sincerity, that he
thought the scheme was a good one, and that there was
❑othing more detrimental to the interests of the repre-
sented than the collisions which took place when only one
Member was to be selected. With respect to the Metro-

Flitan Representation, lie confessed he did not think it wise
to give separate Members to a number of districts so close
to the seat of the Legislature. It might be true that the
Members for these places would not turn out to be de-
magogues ; but still he thought it was not wise to have a
number of Members sitting for places in the immediate
vicinity of Parliament, and liable to be called to aJeount
for their unpopular votes, in the way they had seen in more
than one instance on recent occasions.—(Hear, bear.)—
When a Member was once elected, he should be removed
as much as possible from the exhibition of all feelings of a
local description, and hold himself the Representative of
all the interests of the community. There might be oc-
casions, too, in which a Meinber would feel himself com-
pelled to give a vote for the advantage of the country di-
rectly in opposition to those of his constituents, and he
could not, for the life of him, see the propri-
ety of exposing a number of them to be called to account
an all occasions for the votes they may give in the House
of Commons. The Noble Lord concluded by expres.ing
his conviction that the schedule, as amended in this
manner, would put the country in possession of a Reform

safe and efficient ; while it would, together with the ad-
ditional Members for Ireland and Wales, absorb the whole
of the Members intended to be taken away by the disen-
franchisement of the boroughs in the clause A.
Lord SEAGRAVE would not have troubled the House
with any observations on the question, were it not f6r
what bad fallen from the Noble Lord who had spoke last
with respect to the town of Cheltenham. That town
was, he conceived, fully entitled to have a representation
as well from its increasing wealth and population, a.
from the amount it paid in taxes to the State. He was
convinced, indeed, that even the Noble Baron who moved
the amendment • (Ellenborough) would give his vote in
favour of the claims of Cheltenham—(Hear, hear, and a
latigh)—and the more so, as that Noble Lord bad lately
purchased an estate iu its vicinity. The Noble Lord was
also, he believed, an active Member in getting up that
Club of Anti-Reformers called Conservatives; and when
their Lordships heard that the Noble Baron considered
Cheltenham of importance enough to be honoured with
the establishment in it of a branch of the Club, he
thought the Noble Baron would scarcely deny to
the place he bad made the eat of his private legislation