The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-06 00:00:00

ME SUN; LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, AUGUST 7,6??, 1859.

to sailors, but there was a curious circumstance, which de-
served notice. Hitherto the furlough of sailors allowed them
to return to their ships at a month's notico ; but now they
were required to do so at five day's notice. This looked as if
the French Government wished more than usual to be pre-
pared to replace their fleet in an effective state. But how-
ever that might be, the question was that if our force was
inadequate it must be increased. There were now 100,000
European soldiers in India. and this bore on the subject of
the finances of the Indian Government. He had seen a
statement in the Bengal journals that "it was not bayonets
or artillery that was wanted, but' a good system of go-
vernment. ' He wished to impress on the house that it was
objectionable to send these troops out of this country. It
was said that the recent disturbance in the local force in
India was an additional reason for sending out more troops
from England. The authorities here and in India had mis-
managed this matter of the local troops. Forty men of this
force were to be brought to courts-martial, and 6,000 or
7,000 of this force were to be discharged. You had a large
force in India, double the number that put down the mutiny,
and when you found that the Indian government was re-
ducing their local force it showed that any additional troops
were unnecessary.

Colonel P. HERBERT, who had a notice of motion on
the paper, " That in the opinion of the house the military
force at present available for service within the United
Kingdom is inadequate to existing requirements," said,
that as, by the forms of the house, he could not make his
motion; he would take advantage of that of his honourable
and gallant friend to make the statement he desired to make.
He would not enter into the question of what ought to be
the number of troops for the defence of this country, but he
wished to confine himself to the fact of the number of troops
which were actually possessed for service in this country.
He had before him a document, the accuracy of which
would not be disputed by the Secretary for War, and he had
extracted from it the figures he wished to bring before the
house. He would refer to the number of troops in the
United Kingdom on the Ist of June in this year. The
total number on that day, including militia, was 110,000.
He wished to enter into an examination of the actual
value of that number of men. Excluding the embodied
militia the number was reduced to 86,000 ; of these 10,000
were officers, sergeants, and drummers, and that reduced
the rank and file to 76,000. When a force was of in-
ferior quality you required a larger number of men.
Of the 76,000 men nearly one half were under one year's
service, and the number under 20 years of age was 28,000.
Of the whole number 11,000 were recruits—and you must
take the sick at 5,000, absentees at 4,500, making a total of
20,500, leaving fit for duty 55,000, so that you had come
down to one half of the original number. Of these the
cavalry were 7,600, the artillery 9,000, the engineers and
Military Train, 3,000, making 19,600, so that the infantry
were reduced to 34,500. Of this number 15,000 belonged to
depots principally of the regiments in India. The depots
were composed of 24,000 men altogether, and of these 10,000
were under 20 years of age, and 15,000 were under one
year's service. This showed what would be the value of
these depot troops, and except for the purpose of defending
fortified places it would be extremely small. Of the seven
battalions of the Guards and the 21 regiments of the line
excluding the sick and absentees, the grand total of rank
and file was 21,000, to which were to be added officers, ser-
geants, and drummers, 3,000. The embodied militia
amounted to 23,000, and if the deductions in the regular
forces were great, it must also be large from this 23;000
men. Many of the militia regiments were extremely fine
-battalions, but many of them were not in the highest state
of efficiency. If you allowed the defence of Portsmouth,
Pembroke, and Plymouth to be committed to the militia
and the depot battalions, and took the whole of the regi-
ments of the line in Great Britain available for service in

the field, the force of infantry would be 21,000 men, and if
you added to these 12,000 or 14,000 militia, you would only
get 35,000 men. He should no doubt be told that all
armies were subject to the deductions which he had pointed
out, but in this case they were out of all proportion to the
nominal strength of our army. Another point which would
probably be urged. Against them was, that if these state-
ments were true, it was indiscreet to make them. But he
differed on that point. These things were well known to
everybody but ourselves. (Hear.) Any one who was in
the habit of looking into the state of our army might easily
come to the same results as he had. Military officers of
foreign nations were as able to make these calculations as
he was. Every week the stations of our army were pub-
lished in some of the journals, and for ls. 6d. any one
could get the Army Estimates, and by these means any
soldier could make the calculation for himself. The remedy
was in the hands of the Government, and if they could get
over the financial difficulty—that of getting the money—the
expense of putting the matter on a proper footing would be
small. Our regimental establishment was large, and 30,000
men could be added to our infantry without the addition of
a single officer. (Hear.) More militia regiments ought to
be embodied. In any reply to his figures he should like
the house to Lear in mind that the repetition of the gross
totals could not be considered as a refutation of his argu-
ment. His figures were correct, and if they showed that
our infantry was only 21,000, and that you had only
14,000 out of the 23,000 militia to add to them for the pur-
pose of meetingan enemy in the field, he hoped the house
would feel that the military force at present available for
service within the United Kingdom was inadequate to exist-
ing circumstances,
Sir A. AGNEW said that with reference to the motion df
the hon. and gallant member for Westminster, he would
say that we had now in India a force most adapted for the
defence of this country, and instead of not sending out these
6,000 men to India it would be better to 'let them go, and
bring horne some of the fine seasoned men, with all the ex-
perience of the Crimea and the late war in India upon them.
It was a shame that such troops should be allowed to die
away from the effects of climate in India. It was best to
send out the newly raised men, and bring the seasoned
troops home, who would be more available for our defence
than militia or newly raised corps.
Col. NORTH hoped the Government would send out this
force. Many regiments in India would be rendered ineffi-
cient if the usual reliefs did not go out, and it would be like
a sentence of perpetual banishment if regiments were not
brought home. He was afraid that the services of more than
8,700 would be required in India, according to the reports
which had just reached this country. Something had been
said about increasing the local European force in India; but,
after one regiment of this force had set the example of in-
trenching itself in barracks and electing its own officers, he
thought the sooner our own soldiers went out there the
better. A man who got a European regiment to mutiny
must be very clever indeed ; but, from inquiries he had
made, he believed that the ranks of Indian regiments were
filled with broken-down lawyers and men of that descrip-
tion. (Laughter.) He meant no disrespect to the learned
profession, but troublesome soldiers were always called the
lawyers of the regiment. The men had a grievance, but if
they had been told that the case had been settled against
them, not by the Attorney or Solicitor •General, but by the
Adjutant- G earieQraul, eetnh,
se yr
eNgv
nulledn ht at
hv
iengsm awn iofue
lsdt ed
be ae
xdpi
lffaei rneendt
ftoeetlhineg.melnn on their private parades ; or an old soldier
would go to his captain, and on returning would tell the
men, " I don't know what he said, but it's all right."
(A laugh.) If this had been done here there would have
been no rumpus w;iatever. With regard to the avail-
able force in this country he thought that his gallant
friend took too gloomy a view. An infantry soldier of a
year's standing, so far as fighting was concerned, was an
efficient soldier ; Waterloo was won by men who had not
been more than two or three years in the service. As to the
calculations which had been made, he did not see why the
sergeants, who were armed like the rest of the men, should
be deducted frorntheavailable force; and the Military Train
Corps, though non-combatant, formed an integral part of
our force, and ought to be reckoned with it. Then, again,
five per cent. was the usual allowance made for the sick ;
and altogether he thought the deductions made were far too
many. With regard to the militia, he was at Aldershot last
Saturday, and, as far as the movements of the men went,
he defied any one to distinguish militia from line regiments.
(Hear, hear.) It was impossible to see finer troops, and he
hoped Government would continue to maintain the regi-
ments which were now out. It was not drill or numbers
which made a regiment, but the soldierlike feeling and dis-
cipline which animated the men. Five hundred men well
disciplined were more valuable than 1,000 others. He
was glad, therefore, to hear the notice of the Secretary for
War that evening for the formation of a reserve corps from
men who had been 10 years in the service. They would
prove a great additional securityto thecountry if they could
be got to join this corps He agreed that no sufficient in-
ducement was proposed ; but as a soldier who entered the
army at 18 would leave it in the prime of life, 20,000 such
men would be of the highest value in protecting our shores.
(Hear.)
Sir E. COLEBROOKE said he shared in the opinion of
the hon. and gallant member for Westminster that, looking
to the state of India, and the large European force there, he
could not see why such a large number of additional men
should be sent out. But he rose to point out to the house
that the force which the hon. and gallant member wished to
,retain in this country did not belong to the British Govern-
ment, but to the Government of India. It was natural that
the hon. and gallant gentleman should wish to have as many
troops as might be necessary for the defence of the country,
but he hoped they would go further with him, and insist that
the whole of that force' should be charged on the revenue
of this country instead of on that of India. The whole
question of the relative expense of troops borne by this
country and India deserved considerate revision by the Go-
vernment. He (Sir E. Colebrooke) had given notice of his
intention to bring in a bring to extend the power of the In-
dian Government to increase the local force.

Sir C. WOOD thought it unnecessary for the house to
wander into a debate upon Indian finance upon the organi-
sation of the Indian army, or upon the national defences.
He agreed with the hon. and gallant member opposite, the
Member for Oxfordshire, that if this were a question of re-
gular organised regiments of this country to act as a militia
force in India, it would be objectionable, but that was not
what was propm.ed. It was indispensably necessary to send
out these drafts in order to keep up the efficiency of the re-
giments now in India, and that was really all it was now
proposed to do. Although it might appear that this was a
large number of men to send out at one time, it should be.
observed that they would arrive in India at a season of the
year when they -were least likely to be affected by the
change of climate, instead of being.sent out in driblets all
through the year. They would there go to make up those
regiments of the line or of the local force which were now
in India, and so the efficiency of those regiments, which
must be kept in India at all events, must be kept up. With
regard to the reduction of the force in India, it was intended
to send home ten regiments in the course of this year, but
circumstances had 'occurred which interfered with that
measure, and the excitement which had arisen amongst
the European troops, though it had been a good deal
exaggerated, made it advisable, in the opinion of
the. Government of India to retain two or three of the regi-
ments which 'had been ordered home. One regiment of
cavalry, however, and seven regiments of infantry, with a
battalion of the military train, had already left India, and
were-on their return home.
Sir DE L. EVANS asked how many men were coming
home ?
Sir C. WOOD could not exactly say the number of men,
because they were allowed to volunteer into other regi-
ments remaining in India up to the moment of the depar-
ture of their regiments. The regiments coming home were
the 9th Lancers, the 10th Foot, the 28th Foot, the 29th
Foot, the 37th Foot, the 84th Foot, the 86th Foot, and the
Gth battalion of th_e Military Train.
Col. SYKES remarked that every regiment now in India
consisted of about 1,100 men, and by not filling uP
caneies they might be reduced to 900, which he thought
•would, under ordinary circumstances, be quite sufficient.
They were more required in England than in India. There
_
were now. .110,009. European troops in
India; the cost of
them was .cnorineus, and it would be prudent to reduce
them as fast as pe*siblo. (Hear.) The proposal to send out
the va-
raw recruits, .eucl send home the acclimatised European
troops, was. role of the strangest ever made, since new
corners in .ludia.died off by dozens in the first two or three
years ; the .e4peese of their transport to and fro was
also immense, . With regard to the late .outbreak, it
had been ..can*Q4 . by an extraordinary blunder or
by extraordinary.. want of tact. It was a noble
occasion le. ha.vp.*aid to those men, " You are not enti-
tled to what you Alain)' but you are gallant fellows—you
have won .Delhi Rid Lucknow for us, and. so here it is for
you." (Cheers.) That would have been a sure means of
attaching thew to our service, but instead of that the nest',
niggling, petty consideration of a few thousand pounds had

been allowed to produce this unhappy and disreputable
affair, the cost of which would be fourfold what it would
have been if the money had been generously given.
Mr. HORSMAN did not think the question raised by his
hon. and gallant friend was so unimportant as the Secretary
of State for India seemed to think. He must take this oppor-
tunity to urge again upon the house the state of insecurity
in which this country was placed from the want of an ade-
quate home force. It had been shown that the troops now
in India were not required there, and they were a great
burthen on the finances of India, whilst they were wanted
to give additional strength to England. Now, the question
was, whether we ought to send out more recruits to India,
or to bring home regiments from India to England. This
must not be treated as a mere departmental question. The
points to be considered were, first, what was the probability
of our military force being required for a home exigency ;
and, secondly, was it sufficient for such an emergency?
Now, all those who were most versed in European politics,
and best acquainted with the secret springs and motives
by which cabinets, and empires, and armies were set in
motion, said that the time might not be far distant when
we should require a large home force—when English
liberty would have to be fought for on English soil ; and
the majority of such persons told us that, according to pre-
sent appearances,' they thought that at no distant day this
was inevitable. (Murmurs.) He really knew no person
who had attended much to Eoropean politics, and who, be-
lieved that the peace of Europe could be maintained un-
broken for many years, or who did not think that, if it
were to be broken, it was very probable that England
might be brought into the conflict. Our own most expe-
rienced diplomatists gave us the strongest warnings on the
subject, and assured us that if we disregarded those warn-
ings we should rue the lay. ' Now, supposing such a
home exigency to occur, were our means of encountering it
sufficient ? It was notorious that the strongest representa-
tions had been made to her Majesty's Ministers on this sub-
ject by the highest and most competent authorities; and
the Government had had as great an amount of concurrent
testimony laid officially before them as ever was got toge-
ther. The house was told the other night of a military
committee appointed last year to report confidentially to the
Government. It was not for the house to see that confiden-
tial report, but the Government ought not to lull the coun-
try into a false security, by holding language at variance
with the information they possessed. When he (Mr. Hors-
man) made a motion on this subject the other night, he was
answered by the Secretary for War in a very frank and
manly speech, but he regretted afterwards to hear the noble
lord at the head of the Government, who sneered at the
rifle fever which his colleague had taken credit for the Go-
vernment for having encouraged; and the noble lord went
so far as to say that even if that unfortunate event of a war
should occur, if we had a disaster at sea and the landing of
a hostile force in England, the population of the country
would of itself be sufficient to annihilate the invaders. He
was sorry to hear that statement from the noble lord, be-
cause it was one which no military man coult think founded
in reason. He felt that if only any partial disaster should
occur, and even the smallest injury were to be inflicted,' a
heavy responsibility would rest upon those charged with
the protection of the country. The day would come when
every word that had been spoken, every act that had been
done, every confidential report submitted to the Govern-
ment, would all rise in judgment against them. The great
'Napoleon onpe said that an invaded country never wanted
men, but that it did want soldiers. This was the reply to
those who fancied an unarmed population could be relied
upon in a suddenemergency. The hon. and gallant member
for Ludlow had shown from official returns that the military
force in this country was not only inadequate, but almost no
force at all. He (Mr. Horsman) could not contemplate
that fact without great disquietude. No one knew how soon
the emergency might arrive. If any one in July, 1858, had
told the Emperor of Austria that before July, 1859, a war
with France would have been begun and ended, he would
have bedn taken for a lunatic. Events marched rapidly in
these days ; they came quickly, and as quickly passed
away. His hon. and gallant friend was therefore quite
right in taking the opportunity of the sending out of these
7,000 men to India to call attention to this matter. Instead
of sending more out, we wanted all that we had here now,
and 20,000 or 30,000 more, if they could be got from India ;
and even then we should be under the strength which every
man to whom one would refer for information or advice
must think requisite. It was the duty of the Government to
bring home every single soldier not absolutely required.
Mr. S. HERBERT said—Before I address myself to
what fell from the hon. and gallant officer opposite, let me
make some few remarks on the last sentences of the speech
of the right hon. gentlemen who ham just sat down. He
gives in his adhesion, after discussion of the motion, to the
wish to stop these draughts and reliefs being sent out to
India, because of the danger from attack by foreign Powers
at home. What would be the result of stopping these
draughts ? Do not let the house think that we are sending
out trained men with a military organisation. These are
draughts of young recruits belonging to regiments in India.
We want to get regiments back. We have seven coming;
they are afloat, and one has arrived. But we want many
more battalions from India. We are now going upon a
system which is wrong, but to which our necessities com-
pel us. In time of profound peace we are bringing our re-
serves into line and using our embodied militia where we
Ought to have regular troops. We want to get rid of this
state of things. We necessarily press up on the Indian
Government'to send back regiments as soon as circum-
stances will allow. They are unwilling to do so. Fol-
lowing the mutiny of the Sepoys, there is the mutiny
of the European local troops, and no doubt great
alarm in India and great unwillingness to send back bat-
talions. If you want to confirm the Indian Government
in retaining these battalions you cannot take a surer
method than by refusing to send the draughts and reliefs
which belong to regiments these, because they naturally
say, "We want so many thousand men. If you keep the
rough draughts and reduce the regiments to skeletons we
shall be obliged to keep more battalions to have the same
number of men?' The result would be, you would have
an army in India with a disproportionate number of officers
and an insufficient number of men, and an army ih Eng-
land with a vast number of men, without a sufficient num-
ber of officers. You would produce inefficiency both here
and there make a great disturbance, and defeat the very
object which you have in view—namely, to get battalions
home to England. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the speech
of the gallant officer opposite, he says, and justly says that
in estimating the value of our forces we must take into con-
sideration that a great many battalions are very young—
that there are a vast number of men under 20, and a vast
number of men under 25. In making that statement he
confirms that which I have stated on a former occasion,
because I stated the other night that the improved
health of the army could not be entirely depended upon, as
the aru 1, was disproportionately young. But that is a
fault which will mend every day. We have newly
raised young raw levies ; but even young and raw
levies as they are, when they arrived at Malta, and
were seen accidentally by a distinguished and competent
judge, he said he could scarcely believe that they, were such
young battalions, so efficient did they seem to him. (Hear.)
Then comes the question how are you to count armies ? • At
one time they were counted by rank and file. Sergeants were
not counted, because they did not carry any arms. But now
they are armed. They have a better musket than the men
carry, and I confess I do not understand why you throw
them out of the account. You may or may not count ser-
geants. But then you must recollect that, comparing man
for man and army for army, our own counts by rank and file,
while France, Austria, and I believe Russia, all count by
line. 1 confess I think the whole 'calculation of the gallant
officer rests on very inaccurate conditions. I have stated that
I think that hitherto we have been forced into a wrong sys-
tem. When we get regiments home from India we shall get
into a right system. But to say that what you mean by a
peace establishment is an army ready at any moment to resist
war of which no notice is given, and which may take place
any day of the week, is an impossible state of things. Of
`course, if you take a peace establishment and compare it with
a large war establishment, there must be a great dispropor-
tion. The gallant officer says that the country, under present
be
circumstances, ought to placed in a state of defence.
What are those circumstances ? Ido not think the circum-
stances now, compared with those of the past, are such as to
justify us in making a violent effort greatly to increase our
force. A short time ago there was war in Europe ; that was
said to be a reason for increasing the army ; but now peace
has been made, and we are told we ought to increase it be-
cause there is peace I (Hear, hear.) Ido not say our means
of defence ace not small ; I think we should make an effort to
improve them. But again, we are told the time is come when
we ought to reduce our army; these arguments, then, are
matters of opinion, according to the political position hon.
gentlemen take. Id o not say, then, oar defences are what they
ought to be, and we shall go on improving them. But do not
mislead the public by holding out the notion that this coun-
try will ever support a vast war army in time of peace.
(Hear, hear.) After all, what is our reserve ? Supposing
we were under the necessity of arming ourselves, we have
a reserve, including the militia, of 65,000 men. This is
not a force on paper7but consists of men actually embodied.
It is a force strong enough, we are told by good military
authorities, to defend all our chief arsenals. It may be a
small and young force, but it is certainly an improving one.
(Hear, hear.) Including seven regiments now on their way
from India, we shall have 39 battalions. I wish the force
t
were larger; but the way to make it larger is certainly not
td send dreuehts to India A force of 61,000 men may not
,itse considered a large one, but it is not tobehfasritdteeraeldt away
,in the manner the hon. gentleman opposite
its The hon. member for Stroud
r.report on our means
(M Horsman) has re-
ferred to the terms of the confidential
of defence; he says he is not aware
tm otfhsits
as not
butnot
thinks it must contain some severe
ventured to quote its langua
ge. I should have thought
uoting a confidential report
that a sufficient reason for not t
is, simply, because it is confidential;,o.eneraciiiy maandde
kwhheawat i.s intended
)
to be confidential is not
The hon. gentleman says, we hear of certain represents.
tions having been made to the Government, and since those
representations there has been some augmentation of our
military force.
must admit that we seem to be perpetu-
ally oscillating I bets4en parsimonyournd oppositeAt
to an excess of extravagance; when
one time we give way t
comes
and the retiring
the opposite
wave leaves us at a lower point than we
stood at before we began the spasmodic exertion. (Hear.)
This uncertainty, this continual up and down, is exceed-
ingly injurious'to the efficiency of the army. (Hear, hear.)
I should wish the house to look at this subject calmly and
reasonably, and fix as nearly as possible what should be the
num
number of our military establishment. If, having no
offensive intentions against any country; we steadily main-
tained a force sufficient for own security, it would be /hitch
better than these violent and spasmodic attempts to con-
vert a small army into a large one, and, after a reaction of
feeling, disbanding it and reducing it to 40,000 men;
though it is a system very difficult to resist in a country
gevefried by a popular assembly. I have no objection to
discussion on this subject ; the more the public know about
it the less they will be affected by unfounded alarms.
Colonel DUNNE said there were no less than four bills
on the paper that night eating to military matters. He
disapproved'eft 'the period of service being limited to ten
yeers, and also of the undue increase of the staff. Nothing
effectual would be done in the way of defence until a proper
system of organisation for the arniy had been determined
on. The militia ought to be armed with rifles, but the idea
of arming the people generally was futile, for a sufficiency
of arias could nut be found. Now that arms of precision
had been broils:lit td such perfection, the result would be
that those troops who is id the less perfect arms would be
cut off; and a further result would be that hostile forces
would come to close- encounter sooner. He believed that
our army was now much more efficient than it was after
the last great European war.
Sir F. SMITH recalled the attention of the house to the
question before it—whether 6,000 or 79nA--0 troops should be
sent out to their depots in India. Hedonsidered that this
was necessary. In an enumeration of troops the sergeants
ought not to be reckoned ; it was their duty to attend on the
to the g.
troops, and not to be under arms. Referrin
com-
mission appointed on the national defences, tae expressed a
hope that the object of their inquiry should be defined, or
they might recommend the disoontinuance of works now in
pr?gress. He approved of the proposal to raise a reserved

force, consisting of men who had served ten years. Such
a force would be most valuable.
After a few words from Colonel GrLprx,
Lord PALMERSTON said that the functions and limita-
tions of the commission on national defences had been very
distinctly explained. Their duties would be to examine
accurately all plans of works yet to be made, to compare
them with the works already made, and to see what was the
best mode of adapting that which was to be added to that
which existed, in order to render as perfect as possible, with
reference to the present system of attack, those works which
were essential for the defence of our dockyards and-arsenals.
They would not have so much to overhaul what was already
done as to see how it could be made most complete. He
would hardly have risen, however, to set this point right,
but he wished to correct a misconception of his right hon.
friend (Mr. Horsman) as to what had fallen from him a
few evenings ago as to the means of defence in case of war.
His right hon. friend seemed to imagine that the popula-
tion of the country itself would be able to defend her. (Mr.
Horsman—No.) Ho never said anything of the kind. He
was observing on the rifle corps, and he said that if occa-
sion required they would show the same spirit as was
evinced by a much smaller population in the war which
commenced in 1803, when two or three hundred thousand
volunteers were raised and armed, ready to defend their
country, and that such a force, in addition to the regulars
and militia which they could bring' into the field, would be
able to teach an invader a lesson. He had not at all ad-
verted to that organisation as a single means of defence. It
was remarkable how much the discussions on this matter
were influenced by momentary considerations, rather than
by a permanent settled system. When the Indian mutiny
broke out he was urged to send all the line-of-battle ships
to India with troops, to take out their guns and use them
as transports, but now in discussing the means of defence
of the country, tlie greatest stress is laid on having a Chan-
nel fleet as an adequate means of defence. There was not
much consistence in one moment urging a minister to send
all the line-of-battle ships to the other side of the globe,
and in a short time after, when the defence of the country
was in question, requiring to have them in the Channel
ready eptipped. That showed how desirable it was, when
they turned their mind to the question of national defences,
they should be quite divested of all influence of temporary
and accidental circumstances, and look at the question
calmly with a view to a permanent arrangement. He must
confess that although they were capable of improvement
(which he trusted they would soon receive), yet when he
contemplated that the present arrangements would furnish
us with an effective force for defence, it did net seem to him
so contemptible as some hon. gentlemen and the public at
large seemed to think. He held that in the event of a war
they would be able to bring into the field a force
little short of 200,000 fighting men : the regular
force would amount to about 60,000. The present
establishment of the militia was 120,000, and if they were
well recruited in the event of any real emergency they
might count on a force of 100,000. Then there were 14,000
yeomanry, some 12,000 or 14,000 pensioners, and the force
of ten years' service men, which would be formed under a
bill to be brought forward that evening. Then the dock-
yard battalions might be enrolled for the defence of the dock-
yards. And taking all these together, an enemy would
have to count on at least a force of 200,000 men before him.
He did not wish to prolong the discussion, but he could
assure the hon. and gallant officer that the men going out
to India were recruits; this would enable the Government
to bring home several regiments, and carry out arrange-
ments most essential to the defence of the country.
Colonel DICKSON admitted that a number of regiments
might be brought home, but he wished to draw the atten-
tion of the house to the fact that they would return mere
skeletons, of not more than 250 or 300 men each. (Mr. S.
Herbert-LThe depots are so much above the establishment
that when the head-quarters come back the regiments will
be nearly complete.) He agreed with the noble lord that
some persons took too gloomy a view of the state of the
army ; but he thought the noble lord was too sanguine.
He also agreed that they were too apt to act on momentary
impressions. He thought the proposed reserve force was
exceedingly ill-advised. It was intended to catch the ten
years' service men, but those were the very men they
wanted to catch for the militia. He had been very much
disappointed in the report of the militia commission ; they
seemed to have considered only the position of the adju-
tants, which was very good already. He was sorry to hear
the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for War say that
he intended to consider the report, with a view to re-organise
the force; the report furnished no materials for its re-or-
ganisation.
Sir De Lacy. Evans's resolution was then negatived
without a division, and the report of the Committee of
Ways at d Means_was received.
EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
RESERVE VOLUNTEER FORCE OF SEAMEN
BILL.
The house,went into committee on this bill.
Clause 4 was agreed. to.
On clause 5,
Mr. HENLEY said that by this clause volunteers who
had entered for five years were liable, " in case her Majesty
should see fit, to be called on to serve for three or four
years additional." Such a clause as that put the force en-
tirely at the discretion of the Admiralty, and he would
suggest that some proviso should be inserted as to the case
of the naval volunteers and militia, making them liable only
in case of "imminent internal &wager or war."
Sir C. NAPIER agreed with the suggestion of the right
hon. gentleman, and
Lord C. PAGET proposed to insert the words "of na-
tional emergency" after the word "proclamation."
After some further conversation,
Mr. AYRTON said that,'as in clause 13 the Government
were given the fullest powers to make regulations, it would
be far better to omit the smaller details of the hill. If the
Admiralty could not be trusted to carry out the bill they
were not fit for their places.
Lord C. PAGET thought that at all events it would be
desirable to adopt the clause under consideration, its object
being to protect the seamen, and thereby to attract them
into the service.

Mr. HENLEY thought the bill ought to be made more
clear. If he were asked what it meant he could only say
that it was a bill to induce men to enter the Queen's ser-
vice, leaving them to get out of it again as they could.
Unless the provisions of the measure were made more in-
telligible the seamen would not be likely to enter, and this
praiseworthy attempt would prove a complete failure. (Hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY had read the bill over two or three times,
and he really could not understand it. It was altogether a
very ill-constructed measure, and was much too long. It
will certainly be much better to leave the details to the
executive.

The clause as amended was agreed to.
Clauses up to 9 were agreed to.
On clause 10, providing for pensions to volunteers,
Lord C. PAGET said that the amount of these pensions,
it was calculated, would not exceed £60,000 per annum.
They would not commence for 10 years.
Mr. HENLEY thought this question ought to be very
carefully considered. He could not but think that the
clause was too wide in its frame as it stood. It would be
very difficult to determine how pensions should be awarded,
as between men who had andthose who had not seen active
service. He thought that if the pensions were to be granted
subject to the consent of the Treasury, it would meet some
of the difficulties of the. case.
Lord C. PAGET adopted the suggestion of the right hon.
gentleman, and the words, " With the consent of the Lords
Commissioners of the Treasury," were added to the clause,
which was agreed to.
Clauses up to 15 were agreed to.
On clause 15,
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The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses up to 20.

On clause 20,
Mr. LINDSAY remarked that this clause imposed a
penalty upon the master of a vessel who could not give an
account of any lad who was missing. Of course if a boy
deserted it would be impossible for the master to tell where
he was.
Lord C. PAGET said he intended to alter the frame of
this clause at a future stage. Probably it would be omitted
altogether.
The clause and the remaining clauses were agreed tot
and the house resumed.
POOR LAW BOARDS
,(PAYMENT OF DEBTS`