The Sun.
London, England, 1866-07-25 00:00:00

THE REFORM DEMONSTRATION IN HYDE PARK.

In reply to Earl GRANVILLE,
-- -

The Earl of DERBY—Although the noble earl had not
given me any notice before I came to the house of the
questions he intended to put, I cannot be surprised that he
should have desired to take the earliest opportunity of
calling the attention of your lordships and the country to
what he has justly described as the deplorable events which
took place last night—events which I am sure all persons,
whatever may be their political or private opinions, can-
not but look at with feelings of the deepest regret, and
also of some shame and humiliation. (Hear, hear.) There
is only one point which is satisfactory in what took place
last night, and that is, as we find from inquiries made
within the last hour, that there had been, up to that time
at all events, no actual loss of life. There have been
injuries, some of a serious character, but the latest in-
formation is that there has been ncs loss of life whatever.
and it is hoped that no loss of life will ensue. But it is
impossible to deny that the proceedings of yesterday were
of a very serious character. (Hear, hear.) I entirely acquit
those who were the leaders of the movement of any inten-
tion to produce the consequences which followed from it.
(Hear, hear.) I do firmly believe that those who desire to
make a great demonstration had no intention of causing
any breach of the public peace. I think, on the other hand,
it is idle to contend that that which they desired was to
afford a fair opportunity for public discussion. It is im-
possible to believe that any such fair discussion eould
take place under the circumstances, and I cannot but
think that the object was, not by breach of the public
peace but by a demonstration of physical force, to overawe
the legislature and give a false impression of public
feeling upon the subject of Parliamentary Reform. But I
do hope, as I acquit them of any intention of violating the
public peace, that the experience of last night will show
them how impossible it is for those who take upon them-
selves the responsibility of collecting tens,;and hundreds
of thousands of persons together, and assembling them
for a demonstration of physical power, to answer
for those persons who are not in immediate con-
nection with them, but who in every great town are
ready, half in sport and half in earnest, to join in any riot
or disturbance, or, perhaps, I might say, in any frolic. I
believe that a very large portion of those who were in
Hyde-park yesterday were boys andyoung men who really
had no serious views with regard to the objects of the de-
monstration, and who merely joined it for the purpose of
assisting in any disturbance or any row that might take
place. There was among them a great amount of good
humour. Rough jokes were bandied about from side to
side, and I believe that a great portion of the mischief that
did ultimately result was not in the slightest degree anti-
cipated or intended even by those who were the principal
actors. At the same time it is impossible not to see that
that result was of a very serious character. The leaders of
the demonstration, I dare say, were sincerely desirous of
trying the point of law, whether the parks ought to be
open for all purposes, and at all times, to her Majesty's
subjects. But the point of law is one upon which I be-
lieve there can be no question at all. There is no doubt
that the crown is the owner of these parks. It is true
that they are kept up at the expense of the public for their
enjoyment and recreation, but the crown has the un-
doubted right of exercising such control over the parks
as to prevent them 'being diverted from their proper
purpose to objects which may interfere with the recreation
and enjoyment of the people. I believe this has been laid
down at all times. It is a question do which there is not
the slightest doubt, and that opinion has been emphati-
cally declared by the Homo Secretary of the late Govern-
ment in the most handsome manner, concurring as ho did
in the course which was proposed to be taken by my right
hon. friend the Secretary for the Home Department of the
present Government. As to the propriety of exercising
certain restrictions and regulations over the parks, I be-
lieve that no member, either of the late or of the
present Government, and I think that no one who has
seriously considered the question, can entertain the slightest
doubt. The mode which was adopted yesterday of enforc-
ing the rights of the Crown was thought to be the least
likely to produce collision between the police and any num-
ber of persons who might Went the demonstration.
Whether it was really the most prudent course I do not
pretend to say ; but there can be no doubt that it was for
the purpose of preventing a collision that the gates of the
park were closed. Unfortunately it happened, partly from
the pressure of the vast multitudes collected, and partly
from the spirit of mischief, that an attempt was made to
pull down a portion of the railings. I am told that no less
than 1,400 yards °firma railing were pulled down in the
course of last night. The consequence was that the 'park
was lefc, open, and considerable destruction has taken place
to those ornamental flower beds and shrubs which have
afforded so much delight to the people, and great injury
has been done to the property of the Crown. I believe
that the leaders, having ascertained that they would not
be admitted, desired to withdraw and to hold their meeting
in a place where the same objection would not apply as to
the parks, and whatever I may think of the prudence of
meeting where they did, I can safely say there was no de-
sire on the part of any one to interfere with that which is
the right of British subjects, namely, to assemble for the
discussion of political and public questions wherever they
do not infringe upon public or private rights, or obstruct
legitimate traffic. There is no doubt that the leaders on
this occasion endeavoured to withdraw their force from
the scene of action, but after they had withdrawn a multi-
tude of rough and idle characters assembled, and from
those in the main the mischief proceeded. I believe that
the police acted with great forbearance and temper. (Hear,
hoar.) The troops, whom ultimately it was necessary to
call out, behaved with the utmost forbearance ; and what-
ever may bo the rumours of charges made upon the
people, or anything of that kind, such rumours are utterly
and entirely unfounded. (hear.) The troops confined them-
selves, as far as possible, to keeping the crowd moving, and
at not a very late hour last night the park was compara-
tively clear, and comparatively little damage was done in
the streets. I believe my noble and learned friend on the
woolsack was an unfortunate sufferer in consequence of
his near neighbourhood to Sirßichard Mayne, who yester-
day was not a very popular character. (Laughter.) And
between 2 and 3 o'clock in the moping I was honoured
with a visit by the mob, but beyond breaking a few win_
dows, I do not believe any mischief was done except in the
immediate neighbourhood of the park. Neverthless it will
be the duty of the Government to use every means in their
power to prevent a repetition of dangers of this kind. I
have no reason to suppose that there is likely to be a re-
newal to-night of the scenes of last night. Still it is not to
be concealed that there was a number of idle people about
the park this afternoon, probably with no political object,
but bent upon doing mischief, and it will be necessary to
take precautions for the purpose of interfering with their
unlawful occupation. There will be no attempt to exclude
People from the park, because circumstances have made
that utterly impossible—(a laugh)—but what will be done
will be to prevent assemblages by keeping the crowds in
_motion. This will be done by the police, and I hope it will
Zee' b_e necessary to call out the military. (Hear.) It may be
however, to patrol the park and the immediate
neighbourhood,and if the spirit of mischie4lnd insubordi-
nation does continue, it will be necessary to take those steps
which were taken o a former occasion, and call upon the
well-disposed of the district to enrol themselves
as special co
srtthepreservation of the publicpeace
in which all are inter:ld:id,. but more especially those resid-
ing in the immediate of the park. I cannot under-
take to say what were thenit
vicinity
instructions given by my
right
honh. friend the Romipekrnocwretthary, or whether it is pos-
sible produce them.
right hon. friend
has been in constant communicatptnin my
Sir R. Mayne,
We have had the fullest confidenceiE in the judgment and
discretion of Sir Richard Mayne.
power at his dis-
posal was made use of last night, andvelreYilf be made use of
again this evening and to-night, fur the
purpose
poftiti;
serving the public peace. (Hear, hear.)
Earl G-RANVILLE—I do not regret havingas
Las
question to the noble earl, which I admit he answered
in a very candid manner. There are some points in which
I entirely agree with him. I think with regard to monster
meetings held in the metropolis, that they cannot be of
any use in furthering the objects of those who convene
them, but at the same time I think it should be borne in
mind that some difficulty was thrown in the way of those
persons in the course of a recent debate. A measure of re-
form having been proposed for the enfranchisement of the
working classes, one of the strongest arguments used
against it was the apathy and indifference shown by the
working classes themselves with respect to every measure
of reform. I agree, however, entirely with the noble earl
that the object of the real working classes of the metro-
polis is, as much as his own, to preserve public order, and

that meetings of such magnitude are held not so much for
the purpose of fair discussion, but as displays of mere phy-
sical force. I believe there is no doubt as what is the law
with respect to the royal parks. If there is no authority to
prevent meetings there must be excessive exercise of power
inpreventing carriages from entering certain parts of the
park, or preventing preaching, or cricket matches, and in
closing the gates night and morning, all of which things are
done every day. All these restrictions are enforced in order to
preserve the royal parks for the recreation and healthy
amusement of the people. But I wish it to be understood
that while Sir George Grey's views were in accordance
with those of the present Secretary of State as to the un-
desirableness of permitting monster meetings in the parks,
he gave no opinion as to the mode of proceeding which
was adopted by the Government in the way of prevention,
and which, yesterday, was not successful. I think the
public will be anxious to have, and that after consideration
the noble earl will not find it inconvenient to give, fuller
explanations, both with regard to the instructions which
were given and as to the mode in which they were carried
out, especially as to whether it was desirable to bring out
the troops at the moment at which they were brought out.
It is an unusual circumstance to call the military out on
such occasions. and I think it ought to be clearly explained
upon whose authority they were called out. But my object
in rising was to assure the Government that they will have,
as far as I know, the co-operation of every person in this
house and country in ensuring that which is of the greatest
national importance, namely, the maintenance of order in
this great metropolis. (Hear, hear.)
Lord TEYNHAM suggested that means should be given
to the people to hold these meetings without interfering
with public order.
Their lordships adjourned at five minutes past 6 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS--LAsT EVENING.
The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' amendments to the following bills were con-
sidered and agreed to, and the bills were read a third time
and passed :—Great Eastern Railway (Alexandra Park
Branches), Great North of Scotland Railway, Llanelly
Railway and Dock, Muswell Hill Estate and Railways, and
North British Railway (Camps, &c., Branches).
_____

CIVIL SERVICE SUPPLEMENTAL ESTIMATES.
Mr. HUNT laid on the table these estimates.
NEW MEMBER.

Mr. JoHN A. Small took the oaths and his seat on his
election for Hertfordshire.

THE LIVERPOOL SEWAGE UTILIZATION BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.

On the order of the day for going into committee on this
bill,
Mr. HENLEY said he considered that they should
postpone the first part of this bill this session. That part
related to the sewage and water supply, and the second
part referred to the removal of nuisances, and that latter
portion of the bill; which it was proposed should be of
immediate application was most important. In the pre-
sent bill there was a very serious omission, namely, in the
absence of any provision for any ample supply of water
for the cleansing purposes. The right hon. gentleman
contended at much length that the portions of the bill to
which he took exception might be postponed until next
session, as they did not demand immediate legislation.
Mr. AUSTIN BRUCE said he was obliged to differ
with the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Henley), for he con-
sidered the points to which the right hos. gentleman
referred as being of a character that might be postponed,
were exactly those which :required immediate legislation.
(Hear, hear, and " No, no.") He was of opinion that
in order to give effect to any act of this description they
should secure the co-operation of the local authorities,
and in order to accomplish that object clauses had been

introduced into the bill, to enable the inhabitants of any

particular parish to apportion a part of the rates for the
purpose of sewage and public health. He referred to the
state of workhouses in the metropolis and other parts of
the kingdom, whore the absence of those sanitary regula-
tions provided by this bill led to a very great increase in
death; particularly in respect to children, and he illus-
trated this by reference to the bills of mortality for the
last two or three years.
Mr. CAVE said that he could not agree with his right
hon. friend (Mr. Henley) as to the propriety of postponing
legislation on certain portions of this bill. He agreed with
the last speaker that immediate legislation on the subject
was necessary.

Mr. AYRTON said, that according to his Parliamentary
experience he never knew of a measure of such magnitude
as the present bill introduced by the mover in a
speech so incommensurate with its importance. He
totally objected to the powers conferred on the
police in carrying out the whole of the provisions of
this bill. For instance, poor persons might be turned out
of their tenements without any place for their shelter being
supplied, which, ho considered, was in itself an objection
that should be regarded as fatal to the measure by those
who were influenced by constitutional principles. Powers
vested in a magistracy, which it was proposed under the
bill to transfer to the police, were exercised with
humanity and discretion ; and he did not think that such
transfer to the authorities of Scotland-yard was calculated
to inspire much respect for law on the part of the commu-
nity. The local authorities would by this bill be liable to
bo brought under the despotic influence of stipendiary
magistrates, which might possibly have the effect of de-
priving the public of their services. The way iu which
the improvement in habits which was contemplated by this
bill was not in arming of the police with power to thrust
themselves into private dwellings, but by an extension of
religion and morality among the community.

Sir G. GREY considered that the state of the law re-
specting overcrowding of houses and sanitary regulations
was not so satisfactory as not to require amendment, and
he supported the bill. He denied that there were any
grounds for apprehending an excess of power on the part
of the police in giving effect to this bill, and referred tothe
Smoke Nuisances Act as supporting that view.
Mr. T. HUGHES entreated the house not to allow a bill
of so important a character as the present to be arrested in
its progress this session, and he contended that pablic feel-
ing was in its favour. There might be some concessions
on the part of the supporters of the bill, but he trusted that
the bill in some modified form would pass the Legislature.
Mr. GRAVES could speak to the feeling in Liverpool on
the subject of this bill, and it was decidedly in favour of
its provisions.

Mr. H. LEWIS agreed with the hon. and learned mem-
ber for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) as to tho uncon-
stitutional and impolitic nature of the bill. He considered
that nothing was more injudicious than to place the police
in any position that would bring them into collision with the
public generally, or in any way to render them unpopular.
Mr. CANDLISH thought that legislation on the subject
was imperatively required, and he supported the bill.
In the course of the debate on this bill, it had been
urged as a ground for its postponement that the session
was so far advanced, but he thought the measure of such
importance that tho house would be justified in having a
special session for the purpose of passing it into law.
Mr. ADDERLEY supported the bill, and denied that it
conferred any arbitrary powers on the police, but merely
armed them with a power that prevented the existing
law on the subject continuing a mero dead letter. He
accused the hon. and learned member for the Tower Ham-
lets (Mr. Ayrton) with being ignorant of the sentiments
of his own constituency, when he described them as being
opposed to this bill, and referred to an abstract of docu-
ments laid before the house on the subject in confirmation
of his statement. As the principle of the bill was ad-
mitted, as well as the necessity for legislating on the sub-
ject, he thought the present discussion was futile, and
injurious to the interests of the public. -
Mr. LOCKE bore his personal testimony to the fact
that as far as his experience of the metropolis extended it
was in favour of the bill, which he trusted would be passed
during the present session of Parliament.
Mr. POWELL supported the bill.
Some further discussion having taken place, the house
went into committee—Mr. DODSON in the chair.

Clauses 1 to 4.were agreed to.
On clause 5, a division took place on an amendment
proposed by Mr. HENLEY, to make the mode of levying
the drainage late the same as a general district rate under
the Local Government Act, 1858. The commitee divided,
and the amendment was lost by 82 against 8.
Clauses 6 to 9 were agreed to.
On clause 10,

Mr. PAULL moved several amendments with the ob-
ject of providing for the better inspection and abatement
of smells arising from the drain pipes of dwelling-houses
being out of repair.
Sir R COLLIER thought the clause sufficient for the
purpose as it stood.
Mr. KNIGHT was replying, when, according to the
rules of the house, the discussion terminated at ten
minutes to four.
NEW WRIT•

On the motion of Col. TAYLOR, the Speaker was au-
lorised to issue a new writ for the borough of Galway, in
,he room of Mr. Morris, who had accepted the office of So-
licitor-General for Ireland. -

The house adjourned at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at six o'clock.

, ........._.,_ ..,
THE DISTURBANCES IN HYDE-PARK.

Mr. W. OSBORNE —Perhaps the urgency
f
will form my apology for not having given noticen
rightl
hve a hen.toput.gentleman
Ihave the Home Ha
ask whetherome Secretary ofilt thes a
state
to ues tit ou
e
l
h e
hhouse,wi
eld in Hyde-parkng
inesdtrutoctbionnvse werebeen
given by the Home-office to Sir R. Mayne ? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. AYRT ON believed that the unfortunate state of
things which had taken place, and which all must regret,
had arisen from causes that might have been entirely pre-
vented. Exclusive privileges in the parks having been
conceded from time to time to particular classes of society,
the people in their turn thought they too had a right to use
what they regarded as public property for their purposes.
This right having been put forward, the Government ought
to have issued a well-considered and temperate proclama-
tion, explaining what were the exact rights of the people
in respect of the royal parks. In that case they would not
have had the scenes of the previous night. Instead of that
they had published a notification, which actuallysuggested
that the meeting proposed to be held was likely to be at-
.