The Sun.
London, England, 1832-04-12 00:00:00

lace au intiprovement into the clause, so far as regard,
lodgers of 31. 10d. per week, they were obliged to ;le e:
inadvertence. In that able speech the Nohle Laid had
argued most ably against all parts of the Bill
He would read some more of the general reasonine
of the Nohle tsar!, and thee leave it to the House to coin,
to a conclesion as to Which of the opinions delivered by th.
Noble. Lord were the most proper to be t' flowed. lo Oc-
tober he had said that many of the Members of the Hon,
of Commons had voted for the second reading
nf the Biil, with the ...:action of nuking such amend-
ments in Ceiret'oten -.o would, in their opinion, improve
it l hot when the Bill did get into the Committee,
they found, that them it was ton late to reetft
the error which they had committed. The Noble Baron
now gave up the whole of th ',tegument, and in his
speech of heat night he wishe latte induce Noble Lord.
to do that whitli he himself had blamed in those Member.
who had to voted for the second reading. He had also
said that which he 'Els I F.) wished he had riot said. lie
had sail that with respect to th-u Noble Duke (Wellington)
he must say hie early habits prevented him from liavioe
ouch constitutional know!_dge as would justify him in in!-
lowing that Noble Duke in the course which he was pur-
suing. But had the Noble Lord forgotten the long tittle
that the Noble Delos had been in the civil service
of his coontiy, and with tech a mind as his, was it
likely that he wonld not in that time derive some.
It-Tinseled:se el the Conatinition of his country ? The Con-
stitutional knot% ledee which the Noble Lord haul obtained
by his seven years seat in that House had been, that
..vhen a Minister who had said that by a particular
8.11 he wetild stand or fall, and having been heater: upon
that Bill lay a large majority, introduced that Bill again,
and du ciered that lie would do so over and over again—
these being the only reasons given by the • Noble
Lord why he had changed his opinions, and was going
to vote for the second reading, this seemed to be but
a small anionot of the Constitutional knowledge that the
Zs'etile Lord had picked up in seven years.—(Hear.)
But then be arid lie expected last year a small majority
lint there was a large one, to the extent of forty-one, "and
because you had a large niajerity in favour of the opinions
which I then expree ed, I mean to reverse my opinions
anil to alter my vote ; I mean now to vote for the
second reading of this Bill." He then said, I " warned
you what you might expect, but you would not take that
warniiie. Yon would net take my advice, and just see
the consequence." Now it had happened unforrunately
fur that Noble Baron, lie had warned their Lordships
in both ways, and therefore he undoubtedly thought
their Lordships had a right to make a choice of
which warning they would take. He (Lord Falmouth)
thought when the Noble Baron compared the manner in
tvhicii his speech of last year had been received, and that in
which his had since been receive-I, he wool I entertain some
doubt as to the propriety of the course he was pursuing.
On the delivery of his first speech he was received with
enthusiastic cheers, but those cheers now came from the
other side of the House, and he (Lord F. ) thought
he ought to be warned by theta.—(Hesr.) The Noble
Baron had also quoted part of the speech of Oliver Crom-
well ; and be thought from the cheers •which had just re-
sounded from the Noble Whigs, that they were buoying
themselves up with a hope, that "The Lord had deli-
vered hiun into their hands."—(Laughter.) Another Noble
Earl who had made an excellent speech last year, and a good
one this, except with respect to argument, • had called
this a most unhuippy Bill. lie thought the speech coming
form the quarter it did, was a most unhappy spuech. He
stated that if the 101. franchise were to be permitted,
he for. one should not thing of having-the present
Bill read a second tune.—(Herr, hear.) He could
only say that he heartily thanked them • for his
speech, but if he would aJow him to make his choice,
.be would rather have his vote. Another Noble Earl
had stated that they ought not to be intimidated by
threats, and that he saw no reason why the Constitu-
tion should be frittered away in the manner it
would he by
.this Bill. Ile honoured that Not,le
Earl for his sentiments, arid lie should never feel
ashamed of his consistency. That Noble Earl had been
all aloug a consistent Reformer, but being a Reformer,
there was no reason why heshutuld givehis vote to a measure
that would undoubtedly lead to a revolution. He would
not take op touch of their Lordships' time by comment-
ing on the speech of the Noble Earl at the head of
his Majesty's Government, if example and precedent had
attended the speech of the Nook Earl on this, as on the
last Bill. He did justice to tine eloquence of the Noble Earl,
hut he must say that that eloquence had been spent on
a had cause. By the present Bill it was endeavoured to
render the mob inure densucratic than it was already,
and he (the Earl of Falmouth,) bad no hesitation in
stating that the moment their Lordships passed this
Bull, England would he fast entering on the ter-
mination of her career.—(hear, hear.) It might
be very well for the Noble Earl at the head of his
Majesty's Government to say, if this measure fails,
he would he the only person responsible, and on
him would fall all the consequences. He had
no unfriendly feelings towards that Noble Earl, but he
sincerely wished that he was the only person on whom the
consequences would full. Unfortunately, however, the people
and the country would suffer tlue punishment, though
they were by no means accessary to the crime--
Wriat the present country wanted was not the Bill,
but good Government—a return to sound principles
in the changes of commercial and financial interests ; hut
if their Lordships paused this Bill, from that moment the
decay of the country was certain. He wished now to address
himself in particular to the Rcv. Bench, and to ask them
what they haul seen in the conduct of his Majesty's
Government that could induce them to support
such a Government and such a measure. Was
it because Mr. O'Connell had caused more bloodshed than
any man in the country ? Was it because that Agitator had
received his Majesty's f ivour that they thought Government
ought to receive their support? Did not this Bill give him a
greater increase of power? He had declared that it would,
in all times and places, and if, however, it was said
Oh ! it was not meant to do so, he would instanly reply,
he did not care about that, the Hill would give it, and that
he looked upon it as the stepping-stone to future power, and
eminence. He (the Earl of Falmouth) looked upon the
Irish Bill as part and parcel of this measure. The
only excuse he could furnish for a Government giving
to Mr. O'Connell a silk gown was, that he was a
man of talent. Why, the thief and the pickpocket might
his men of talent, but was that any reason why that talent
should be enoouragsd in so conspicuous a manner ?
In 1829 their Lordships had passed the Roman
Catholic Relief Bill, and t. eir Lordships would
recollect during the discussion on that Bill, that he
had expressed a hope if it passed that the gloomy
anticipations he had of the results would not be
realized. He had also said that after its passing he should
consider it his duty to be silent upon the subject,
and that promise he had kept sacredly up to the present
moment. Why did he now mention the subject
again ? Not for the purpose of his own vindica-
tion, but in order to remind their Lordships
that the Noble Duke who brought forward and
carried through that measure, accompanied it by an-
other, because he thought the then representation of
that •country was not sufficiently strong to afford
the necessary check to that power which would be
given. to the Catholics. By the Catho'ic Bill they did
indeed' preserve that prop which the Noble Duke had
placed there, but they took away the fabric itself ; and no
man could doubt, wnen that fabric was tiiken away from
which the' fiuilding derived its support, it would fall to
the ground.' Now what had been the consequence of all
this ? Why the introduction oif a system of education
which had any thing for its support but the Bible. The
Noble El.! then in strong terms condemned the conduct
of his M ljesty's Ministers for introducing such a measure.
he logged to refer to the conduct of arsine of the parties
who supported this Bull in the other House of Parliament.
It was there considered that the Church be paid like the
Army and Navy, and that those educated for it, should
be cashiered if necessary ; and 'cert dilly it was proposed
that there should tie an inquiry into the Church Establish.
ment in Ireland, whether it was not paid more than
the service performed, and whether the income received
was not greater than it ought to be. This propo-
sition was supported by about. forty-five Members
of the other House, and no less than eleven of' the
present members of the Government voted in favour
of that inquiry.—(Hear.) To talk of this measure
gain; into Committee, the danger of permitting
it to go there would be beyond all cohcep-
tion. It was said that popular feeling was in
favour of Reform. He denied this. Popular feeling
was not in favour of Reform. - He meant not
in favour of this Reform nor of ady thing
like it. The present popular feeling was not the cause
but the effect of this measure ; and he camel not say he envied
the feelings of those who supported the present measure.
The Noble Lord concluded by adverting to a part of Lord
Harrowby's speech in October last, calling on the
Bench of Bishops not to flinch from their duty in vot-
ing 'against the measure, and in hoping, notwithstanding
the alteration which had taken place in the minds of some
Noble Loots, that the present Bill would share a similar
fate to that which befel the last.

The Marquess of BRISTOL next addressed the House.
He w.s considerably excited, and in the course of his
speecl, one curnplete sentence of which wse scarcely hesrd.

in the gallery, he was obserce4 .toapply his. liandktrchief
to his•eyes 1. We tioderttood the Noble Marini' to sith

that tills Bill was as revolutionary in its principles as th
last; it contained the same offensive clauses; and if once sane
iimeed by that House, it would shake to the foundation a:
the ancient institutions of the country, as well as all th-
,ighta of propert;•. The pa-sing of the Bill would ihfli,
on Englishmen the most severe wound that ever had bee:
received from the hands of any set of men, and would hria
upon the country for greater evils than that under whit-;
it at present laboured. He had passed a great pet iod
his life i❑ considering the question of Reform, mill i.
discussing it in all its forms; and he entirely concorre,
with those whose opinion it was that according to ti,
principles of the present constitution, it would be neither
wise, nor just, ❑or safe, for their Lordship• to pass 'ln
present Bill. Whenever a measure might lie brought for
ward to repair, and wit, like the present, to alter
and break down the Constitution, he wnn'd
ready to affird it his utmost support, but nothing
could he so injurious as to grant one ❑niform right of
voting to the country. Once permit this Bill to be pass-d
into a Law, and it was utterly impossible to say whet-.
the effects would stop, or what other measures might
not follow i t.—( He lc the Noble Marquess seemed t,
shed tears.; In his conscience he lielered that
the English H•ruse of Commons was as perfect
now as it was possible to be made. The elements
by which it was composed, made it one of those in-
! valuahle institutions of the country upon which the
happiness of the people actually and solely dependril.
These opinions of his had not been lightly or sudden!)
formed, Why then was it to be expected that he shoo!
support a Bill which was i•alculated to destroy the Roast
of Commons, and thereby entirely to alter the Consti
nation of the country ? Once convert the House of
Commons to he the mere echo of the people, alter it from a
House of Trustees into an Assembly of Delegates, and there
would be an end to all prop=s legislation in this country.
Despotism of any kind was inconsistent with freedom ;
and if this Bill were passed, the House would find
that despotism of a democracy was, of all others,
most intolerable. —( Hear.) Ile appealed, then, to the
sacred name of real liberty, and called upon them not to
sanction the second reading of this Bill, not to take the
first step down that slippery plane which, when
once entered upon, they could not fail to be precipitated
to the bottom of, with a velocity continually increas7ng.
They were called upon to do this upon no other foundation
than the prophecies Gl' those who supported the
Bill, whilst those who warned them of the danger of the
patlipointed to experience, and bade them cling to that
Cenatitution under which they had enjoyed so many
blessings—to that Constitution which had been
tried and loved for centuries,—to that Constitution
which had been found equally capable of resisting
the encroachments of the crown and the democracy,—
to that constitution which accomplished all it professed, and
gave full ef•et and security to the property of all—to that
constitution which did all that political constitutions could
do for a country, which, whilst it protected the rights of
the grelie6t, encouraged the industry and activity of the
humblest individuals of the community, giving them an op-
tunity of rising to the highest station iu the land. The
new House of Commons would furnish a ladder to ambi-
tion which would be mounted in rapid succession by the
favourites and tyrants of the day. He would not
compare our admirable Constitution with the dreams and
visions of aoi-disant philosophers ; but he knew
its great blessings—he knew the large amouot of
comfort, and content, and satisfaction, which thev
owe to it in their passage through this world, and
the eternal happiness it afforded them the means
of attaining, through the protection it afforded them,
to their sober and enligioened Church. Let them not
flatter themselves that that sober and enlightened Church
could lung survive the whole Constitution, fur the new
one would strip it of its possessions in the first place,
and overthrow• its doctrines in the secand.—(Hear.)
What he had said in favour of our present excellent
Constitution was the dictate of gratitude, was
the dictate of judgintot, was a tribute of affection and
reverence to that which he hoped the wisdom, and mode-
ration, and firmness of that House would enable them to
preserve. To a moderate plan of Reform he was ready
to give his test consideration, and should do it
with the view, not of making it the minimum
of concession which might be granted to ap-
pease clamour, but with the view of giving to the
public wishes that maxitunna of Reform which was
compatible with the peace,. order, and security of so-
ciety, and the real interests of the people themselves,
who might believe him, that he w•as ready to make any
concession to them which would not be injurious to them.
Toe Duke of BUCKINGHAM said, that he had men-
tioned that the commissioners were to be appointed by the
Lord Chancellor, as in the last Bill ; but be faund
that in the present case the judges were to have the ap-
pointment.

The BISHOP of LONDON.—He regretted that
he should have to differ with the Noble Marquess who
had just addressed their Lordships, whom he had
much reason to regard with esteem and respect. He
was sure that the candour, which was not less characte-
ristic of that Noble Marquis th in integrity, would
lead his mind to give him credit that the conclusion
he had come to teion this subject, watching the pro-
gress of public opinion, and the posture of affairs in
general, was a sincere conclusion. He should not,
however, trespass upon their Lordships' attention on the
present occasion, did he not feel called upon to say
a few words in vindication of the course lie felt bound to
pursue. He would first take the liherty of pro.
testing, with all due respect and humility, but
still firmly, against these appeals which wet e
made from both sides of the House to the Bench
of Bishops, as if they were a body separate and distinct
from the rest of their Lordships' House, not answerable
ter their conduct in the same manner and degree
as the rest of their Lordships. The Noble Earl
who spoke last but one, with much feeling, and with
professions of respect, which he believed to be sincere,
inquired of the Right Reverend Bench what its ma-
tives were for supporting this measure. They thought
that as those amongst them who intended to vote for the
second reading of the Bill did se, not because it was in-
troduced by Ministers, but because it was a mea-
sure introduced when such a state of affairs prevailed
in the country as placed them, lie conscientiously be-
lieved, under the absolute necessity of voting
for the second reading of this Bill. The vote
given against the ministerial plan of education
in Ireland by the greater part of the Bench on which he
sat, was a sufficient answer to the remark that h id
been male upon that subject. As he occupied
a situation in this country which rendered his cha-
racter of importance to others besides hinasi lf, he trusted
the House would excuse him if he occupied some of his
time in vindicating himself from a charge not made in this
House, hut elsewhere, of inconsistency with regard to the
present Bill. His conduct might not be wise, but
it certainly was consistent. nig determination to
vote ter the second reading of the first Reform
bill brought before them was known long before it Caine
into that House, and after it had come he made no
secret of his intention to vote for the second read-
ing, with the view of supporting in Committee such
modifications as might render it more satisfactory to those
who now opposed it. It so happened that he (lid
nut vote either for or against the second reading
—a course for the adoption of which he could,
if it were necessary, aesign reasons for taking, he thought
I the House would approve of. He would, however, state,
generally, that he telt an insurmountable reluctance to
stand forward in opposition to the views and wishes of
those whom he was accustomed to look to with respect,
and with whom it was at all times his desire, as it was
in most cases his duty, to act in concert. Such
was the course which he pursued with regard to the
first Reform Bill. With respect to that now before them,
he had made up his mind, at whatever hazard of misrepte-
sentation, to give hi• vote for the second reading. He did
so, nut because he col. iially approved of the Bill, but because
under the existing circumstances of the country that
appeared to him the safest and most prudent plan to
adopt with respect to a Bill recommended to their atten-
tion a second time by great majorities of the House of
Common', and if not by great majorities of the people, cer-
tainly with most formidable minorities of them--(A laugh,
hear, hear.) He did so, in order that he might be
able hereafter to modify its provisions, not, he must be
psrmitted to say to such an extent as would trench
lupon the principles of the Bill, or as to endanger the
speedy settlement of this important question.—(Cheers.)
Himself and others, who thought as he did, were placed
in this situation ; that seeing the necessity of an extensive
measure of Reform, they had none other before them with
which to compare the present Bill. No such measure had
been ever hinted at till the notice given by the Noble Duke
opposite a few nights hack, a notice which he must say
come too late. Under the pressure of a necessity then
which no man scarcely denied, they were called upon to
take into serious consideration the only remedy which had
been proposed for an acknowledged
evil, whether that
remedy were, the best and wisest that could be devised
was another question. Whether when the first
measure of Reform were brought froward one
of a more moderate nature would not have
satisfied the existing appetite for change be would
not pretend
the pruning to
Whether a more sparing application
of
hook to the constitution would not have
pare away its deformities, to icnovate .
h
say.
its
Vi;o4ttesitusePdt to
tore its verdure, be would not say; but I '

taking things as they ware, after what hs.d taken pl
within the list twelve months, it would be as vain to ex
pest the sun to go back by the degrees it had gone (low;
on the dial as to expect that the feelings and opinions n
,he two Houses of Parliament could ever return to precis,*
heir lormer state. It was true that the inundation hi,t
subsided, but the current had forced its way into new chat,
eels from which it was possible only to divert it. It wort}:
ippear then to be the part of policy and wisdom to ware}
Ind regulate the course of that stream which it
not wholly control, to deepen and widen the b•t,
in which it was henceforth to flow, in orler that it rnigh.
'ertiliae and not desolate. Whether that were to be tbt
happy consummation of the measure now before them mi2h:
he doubtful, but all such experiments must be doubliti.
He feared that the longer the qmstion wee suspended,
rsore dangerous would it become. The longer the peoph
were allowed to brood over their grievances, real or image.
the more potent must be the remedy which must
he at last applied.—(Hear.) Something might be said on
the improved c tndition of the people during the last fen
,•,-ars, but he would not at present enter into that topic
lie would merely allude to the danger with which the Pro-
testant Church had beer threatened. It bad been said tha
if the Bill he allowed to pass, the Church would be a.-
ticked ; but he hoped better from the good sense of
the people, and trusted that when the agitation in tit's
mbjeet ceased, the minds of the people would subside into
that calmness which was so essential to their prosperity.
He believed, however, that they had dancers to encounter,
and he knew they were surrounded with difficulties; but ii
they were faithful to their trust, they might receive the
aff.ction and support of the great majority of those who
wished well to religion, and who took the sotande4 view
of affairs.—(Cheers.) He would not now consider
lie details of the Bill, but would content himself with
stating his views of its principle, and to add that he should
vote for the second reading, as it would, in his opinion,
he hest consulting the dignity of that House, and the
peace and security of the country; that in giving that
vote, whether he did so with freedom from apprehension
as to the result he would not state ; hut if all parties were
to concede what they could most conscientious y concede
they could concur in a measure for improving the repre-
sentation, which would conciliate the affections of the
people, anti contribute to the strength and the security of
all that WA valuable.—(Loud cheers.)
The Bishop of EXETER said he would give his

opinion in as brief a time al riagilib., and declare the rea

sons which compelled him to give his vote in an opposite
direction to that of his Went Rev. Brother who had just sit
d,wu. That the two Right Rev. Prelates who addressed the

House were sincere and disinterested in what they said he
was perfecty confident, for he was at a loss to perceive any
interestedness in the motives of either of them. He would
observe first on what those Rev. Prelates stated respecting
the motion of which the Noble Duke opposite (Bucking-
ham) had given notice. That Noble Duke admitted the
necessity of giving Members to large towns, and it was
singular that that strongly coincided with the opinions o'
those Reverend Prelates.—(Cheers.) It was strange to him
that they shraild have waited all this time until a rival
expedient had been proposed, which rival expedient pecu-
liarly fell in with their own notions.—(Cheers, and a cry
of " No" from the Bishop of Loudon.) He believed
he had not tnisrepresented the Reverend Pr late.
That Rev. Prelate had slid that the Noble Duke's
had come too late, for that he had found it necessary to
make up his mind upon the subject some time before. But
why that necessity existed he (the Bishop of Exeter) was
at a loss to divine.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)
Ile should have thought that the time for a person to
make up his mind on a quereion was when that question
was brought forward—(Cheers,)—but it was not so with
the Right Reverend Prelate, for some occasion had
arisen, which was wholly unexplained, that seemed
to make it necessary for him to resolve on the cour;e he
should adopt to-night. He (the Bishop of Exeter) must
be allowed to say that he was not surprised that any Peer
who had already spoken on the question, should feel it ne-
cessary to get rid of any inconvenience which had been
created in his mind by the notice which the Noble Duke had
given. Now, what was the question their Lordships had
to decide? It was whether they would consent to
the second reading of the Reform Bill. And
what had been stated to induce them to consent
to it ? It was their approbation of the principle
of the Bill. Now had the Bill their approbation ? He
would refer to the speeches of the Noble Lords who had
opposed it to prove that it had not. The principle, as de •
dared in the preamble, was the expediency of Reorming
the representation by disfranchising certain boroughs,
enfranchising other., extending the right of voting, &c.
tie should think that it was itnpos..ib'e for any person who
hail read the preamble not to perceive that the Bill it- !
self would not only go to the extinction of the vested right
of voting in many cities and boroughs, but work a com-
plete change in the system of representation in every
county, city, and town in England—a change so great
as never was contemplated by zny human being, and which,
when it was known, excited the astonishment of all who

heard of it.—(Ch,ers,) The principle of it seemed to him
to effect a complete and entire change in every Case, ex-
cept in that of the Universities. So great a change ne-
ver was thought of before, and it amounted, in his opi-
nion, to something which looked very much like Revo-
lotion.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)—
The NA:Oe Eirl last night had stated an additional cir-
cumstanc4., that if their Lordships agreed to the second
reading they would he considered as acce.ling to the prin_
ciple of the Bill. Was it possible, he would ask, for
them to accede it ? He said no, and in his oi,i-

nion upon high authority ; for it happened while
the Noble Earl had made the declaration of what
its principle was, he (the Right Rev. Prelate) had heard
and read other princip!rs ascribed to it. He was not
about to taunt the Noble Earl, or attribute blame to him,

for h tying acted inconsistently with him-t-If in his course
of conduct. A question of this sort involved con.
siderations which would appear to the same individual
in different lights according to the different circumstances

in which it was viewed. But which, acting differently
at different times, did not subject a man to the charge of
inconsistency. The Noble Earl himself would admit that
this consideration did not apply to the course or argu-
ments or propositions. Truth and reason would
stand, however it might be necessary for the Noble
Earl ta turn round. It. happened that the first moment
lie hall taken tip the speech of the Noble Eatl, he read
the following sentence:—" The principal objects of this
Bill are to make the House of Commons more olemocr i-
deal. Look at the consequences." He had read on, when
he fell upon the following sentence l—" This Bill pissed,
a change is introduced ; it will lead to all other changes."
Now here was the principle of change alluded to. A third
passage ran thus—" I think that much of the power of
Government rests on the confidence of the people, and
if that confidence be shaken, it is the interest of
the Government to take the most reasonable means
that suggest themselves to recover that confidence and in-
sure its continuance. That, however, is not to be done
by chart 'ing at once the whole constitution of the House
of Commons." Now here was the declaration of the
Noble Earl, of what the principle of the Bill was in
October last. He regarded the principle of the
Bill as revolutionary in the strictest sense. —(Hear,
hear.) He knew that the Noble Earl had declared
that it was not revolutionary, and in his indignant denial
of the charge, he gave a distinction to justify that decla-
ration. And what wa• that distinction ? The Noble
Earl s 6i that nothing could be fairly called a revolution,
which did not either amount to a change of dynasty, or
which was not wrought by the regular powers of the Con •
atitution, but by the direction of certain forces unknown
to the Constitution. He would say the Noble Earl's notion
of a revolution very materially differed from his. If the
Noble Earl's definition was correct, then no revolution
had taken place in France in 1792 till Louis XVI. had
fled from Paris, for up to that period, great as the changes
had been, they all had been brought forward in the regular
course of things, by the action of the regular powers of the
Government.--(Cries of No, no.) He repeated it, in the
early part of the French Revolution, up to June, 1792,
every thing that had taken place in the way of de-
stroying the ancient institutions of the country had
had been done by the forms of the Constitution, and had
been done by its regularly acknowledged powers. Let him
suppose that in this country a vast change was contem-
plated by the two Houses of Parliament, and assented to
by the King—changes which would go to the destruc-
tion of the present institutions of the country. Suppose
that the two Houses were so base as to consent
to a Bill for making all the declarations of the
Crown equivalent to an Act of Pardament, to which
the Sovereign gave his concurrence; would not that
be a revolution T And yet it would have been brought
about by the regular forms of the Constitution.—(Hear,
hear.) Let him suppose that the King, anxious to gra-
tify the wishes of his subjects, consented to descend from
his throne under a form of Government in which only the
shadow of monarchy, and the essentials of Republicanism
prevailed, would not that which might be done by the me-
dium of the Houses of Parliament be considered a revolu-
tion ? But this, he was aware, might be considered to be an
extreme case. But supposing that a measure were had re-•
course to by a new creation of Peers actually to drown
the opinions of that House, and which will unquestion.
ably make that House the tool of Ministers—(Hear)—
supposing such a course were adopted, he would not, nor
would any of their Lordahips hesitate to say that that
would lead to a revolution. Whatever might be thought

of it, to mention the word " revolution" to those ears ?:
lite on the Bench near him—(Loud cheering from
Odposition)—still he must call it a revolution. An.
.vhatever some of its Noble supporters might thine.
others of their Lordships who supported it, gloried
it because it was a revolution. The Press also call.
it a revolution, and supported it most efficiently, limo,
hey considered it so. One Paper in particular, wide!
was carried on with a talent that did it credit, had U•
these words in relation to the Bill—" This horrid of
mockery of a free Constitution which we have hither.
endured." This was a Piper which gloried in t:.•
measure, because it was revolutionary, and was also he
loved to be, if not breathing the pure air of Treasury it:
duence, yet was ably and efficiently supported by one high i,
Goverom• nt.—(lmmense cheering tiom the Opposition.
He considered the democratic elements of ,he Constito•
riots as the best and the most essential which it possessed.
But while lie felt that it was so ; lie felt also that it
such an element as required the most rigorous restrain.
It was like its brother element in the natural world, fir e.
which was the most congenial and productive and the most
beneficial that moan possessed, and, like it, required to
be most vigorously watched, or it would overcome ever,
obstacle opposed to it. A great cry had lately been raised
against what were called nomination boroughs. They h
been called the rotten parts of the State. A grew
Statesman, lately deceased, had not called them by that
term. lie called them the shameful, but neces-
sary parts.—( Hear, hear.) With that term he would
not quarrel. But he was p,rfectly certain that they
could not be got rid of with safety, without some great
corrective being put in their place. They had heard much
of the usurpation of the rights of the Commons by that
House. That such instances had occurred on some occasions,
hr admitsed, but that it occurred in so many instances a: was
said, he must beg leave to deny. Granting there had
been such usurpations by that House, hail :there
been none by the Common.? There was one he
would mention, and a most gigantic one it was, that
could be f :id to the blame of the Cominons. That was
their sanctioning the publication of the debates in Parlia-
ment. He considered that the debates in Parlia •
ment ought to be c irried on uninflu need by any thing
from without. Still he considered it a most beneficial
measure th:it the debates in Parliament should be pub-
lished. It was the hest Reform in Parliament that had
ever been devised. But still it was a great innovation by
the Commons. If a measure should be introduced to
do away with the influence of that House in the
other House, and still leave the other corrective,—and an
important one it certainly was--such An overwhelmin

power would be let, in as would swamp all the other powers
of the state, and democracy would be in the ascendant•
As that Noble Earl had truly said, that Bill would be
considered as part and parcel of the same measure, and
he felt perfectly sure that none of their Lordships would
ask that they should be considered separately. He ad-
verted to this merely because he had the au-
thority of the Noble Earl at the head of his Ma-
jesty's Government,—(Hear,)—who had only told their
Lordships in moving the second reading of the RiP, what
was the number of the new Members given to Irtland.
Sanctioned by that authority, and following the advice
of the Noble Earl at the table, he should not scruple to
make one or two remarks on that Bill. Seeing wlt it
was to become of the representation of Ireland—
seeing that it had gone from the Protestant influence to
Roman Catholic population—(Hear, hear)—he could
hardly conceive a greater change, more important,
..r more terrible. It appeared to him the more
terrible, because he could not disguise from himself that
it was part of a system that had been too long practised,—
truckling to the Roman Catholics. He saw on all hands
a readiness to yield the high and important considerations
of the country not to expediency but to c:aniour, and to
men whom no Constitution could hold—men who had no
gratitude for the efforts that had teen exerted towards them,
but who boldly proclaimed, and who had taken oaths which
they said admittA of shch explanation, that they could get
out of them. 'The days of the Irish church, the Protestant
church, were numbered, the very month of its fall had been
openly, ostensibly, and authoritatively proclaimed, and in
the next November they had been t Id a general election
would take place, and at that general election the
ktiant spirit of democracy was to rise in all its might,
and crush the church of Ireland. This proclamation
bad been made, not by some fanatic at the Rotunda—not
by some artful demagogue or unprincipled agitator, seeking
the influence of the empire for the sake of his own avarice,
but it bad been made in that part of the Bri,ish S. nate,
second only to thatas,embly in which he had the honour now
to stand, and by that man, too, who for his eloquence and
geniu., had not long ago been selected by the Lord Lieu-
tenant of L eland, and not unworthily, to represent the
principles of that Noble Lord in Parliament. That gen-
tleman, whose fortune* and estates placed him above the
reach of any temptation of sordid lucre—(Hear, hear)__
that gentleman had been forced by ti,e measure which
their Lordships were now discussing, and which they were
called upon that night to decide, to leave the peaceful
course that he was Vera pursuing, to arm himself in the
cause of a Chu: ch which was called the: triumphant
Church, while his better feelings recoiled at the work
before him; and he was forced to tread his ground under
the directions of a spiritual pastor.—(Loud cheers. )
In relation to the question of the Irish measure of
Reform, there was one matter which he felt anxious to

lay before their Lordships, he meant the origin of the sys-
tem of representation. It owed i s origin to James
the First—he established this system, not as a means of real
represent ition, but for the purpose of conferring a small oe-
netit on those who were settled in .1 hostile population,—a
population opposed to them on all civil rights. Kiti,g James
felt that it was impossible that any thing like a regular go.
veroment could lie carried on in this country except in that
way, unless the Roman Catholics of Ireland were treated as
slaves, or Englishmen should have a predominant power.
That he avowed and declared to be the reason for creating
new boroughs—namely, for the purpose of securing
the English connexion and the Protestant Church.
Within the period of the recollection of their
Lordships two measures had been brought forward,
which materially altered and considerably changed the
Constitution of Ireland. One was ti.e Legislative Union,
the other the settlement of the Catholic question ; and
upon b ith those occasions it was decided that the repre-
sentation of the Protestant borough should be main-
tained as essentially necessary, and the only means of do-

ing that which would continue to certain boroughs their
bricornpgo
irnagt i ofno.r w
!Irtd bthisienees,asatraet earls bat the Nob!e Duke in
sly necessary to
good faith in Ireland, that the Protestant boroughs should
be continued in their existing state. Ele had no hesitation

in saying that if any thing else had been proposed, every
one of their Lordships would have scouted such an idea ;
but such was the effect that was proposed by the
Bill. He confessed that it had astonished him that mea-
sures so detrimental to true religion had been introduced.
The:r Lordships onglit not to forget that the oath of their
Sovereign bound him to maintain to the utmost the true pro-
fession of the gospel and the Protestant reformed religion,
as established by law. Ile was quite sure that if
our gracious King conceived that this measure was
at all connected with an inroad upon the Protertarit
religion, he would deem his oath binding upon him, and be
would ask Noble Lords whether they could reconcile to
themselves the plain, simple, and undeniable meaning of
their own oaths, to the extinguishment of all Protestant
power, as given by the existing state of the Corporation
boroughs in Ireland to Protestants. There were men
who had actually told their Lordships when they got
the power that was propo-ed to be given to this
Bill, they would so act. He would remind their Lordships
they were equally bound, not only not to consent to a
measure of this sort, but not to aid in forcing it
into the council of their sovereign. If he addressod
this to Noble Lords, what ought he to address
to his Reverend Brethren ? Wou!d any in ,n
among them, if he thought that he (the Right Rev. Pre-
late) had truly stated the case, venture to sanc-
tion this measure by their vote ? He was sure they would
not. Hz was sure that whatever pledges they had given,
no pledge would induce them to go from the sacred
duty of protecting their Sovereign's oath os well
as the Constitution of their country. If after having had
this matter brought before their minds, even in the bum-
ble way in which he had endeavoured to bring it forward,
if they did vote in favour of the second reading of this Bill,
they would do so tinder a notion that in doing so they
were doing no harm ; and however incapable be was ofviewing it in the same way, he would be quite certain
that his Reverend Bretbn n acted conscientTusly.—
(Hear, hear.) He had trespassed long on their Lord-
ships' time, but it was with no ordinary emotions be
found himself speaking on this subject in, that the most
if
august assembly in the world. He rope tted it—the
th foramosttce
niattuugmru august
sh
t had n
assemblyb
gee continue
tn.iun
been—such
the
it still
wo. ot d•
was—and Sftioc
that
God
. House
grant
shouid
ever cease to be the most august assembly in the
world, England would become the most degraded of all
nations.--( Hear, hear.) If that House fell from its high
.tation, it would not fall from violence without, for, not
withstanding all that might come, the people of this land
would never be so false to their own interests, so lost
to all sense of propriety, as to be wanting in
respect to their Lordships, if their Lordships were not
wanting in a due regard to what they owed to themselves.
If that House ever fell from its palmy state, it would fall
by corruption witbiu. If it fail at i; would fall, if there

. were any such, or shou!il be any such, Members in it,
'3), its own degenerate Members. It had been ordained in
host merciful di•per,ation, that if thusa to whom grett
interests were confided became false to those interests.
they would draw down a full measure of righteous retri-
•mtion upon their own heads. To their Lordships the
,m,rdianship of the British Constitution—that-. Con-
•titution which had at least for a hundred years
fostered, nourished, matured, and consolidated the liber-
ties and happines, of the people of this country—the
4uardianship of that Can,titution bad been mainly con-
fided—to the fidelity- of their Lordships—to th• it Fa-
ience, and to their firmness. If their Lord,O,ips' House fell,
their Lordships wood not only fall with it, hut they
would he ground to the dust beneath its ruins. Might
God, who had appointed them to high posts, enable
them to feel, in this gre,t contest—in the agony
of their country's present depending fate.....miglit He
give them wisdom to see, and fortitude to pursue steadily
and Earlesidsr that only path whici could lead to honour
or sustain them in their path of duty ! True it was that
'heir path was beset with difficulties snd dangers. True
it was th clouds and thickset dangers rested upon :it;
but one thing was clear and bright, and cue thing
only—to walk uprightly wan within their own power. Aa
for consequences, they were in the power of God. Would
'e?y di-trust that poA'er ? He was sensible they would
not.

The Bishop of LLANDAFF did not rise to enter into
detail of the observations made by his Rev. Brother, but to
protest against the representation which had been made
of the necessary connexion between the measure of
Reform intended for this country and the effect of the
proposed Irish representation ; also against the probability
of not being able tt oppose certain parts of the Bill, if
their Lordships voted for its second reading. He contended
that he might conscientiously vote in favour of the second
reading of the 8.11, and that he should be at liberty to
give mature consideration to erery clause curtained in
tioa Bid at a future period. If it should appear that the
intended representation for Ireland was to destroy the
church property, then he was sure the Rev. Prelate who
Irid just sat down, would find him prepared to oppose such
a system as soundly and as powerfully as the Right Rev.
Prelate himself. In the speech their Lordships had just
heard, a eh krge was made against himself and others who
stood in this predicament,—that of being disposed to vote
in favour of the second reading of this Bill, though they
had voted against the second • reading of the last
Reform 'fill. Six months' experhoice and time for deli.
her ation had prepared him to vote for the second reading
on this occasion. When he came to vote on the last
iiceasion, he felt bound to come to a different
conc'uteon. What hid determined him before to
give his vote in common with the majority of
tnat House against the measure was, that considering
its great, its feat'ul importance, it appeared to him at
least to be the safir plan to allow time for more fully con-
sidering the subj..ct ; and the only practical mode that
reseoti d itself to him, was that of negativing the
second reading.—( Heat.) In case of that being done,
another course he thought might be adopted ; but if
is was not, then any evil that might have resulted could
not be remedied. Another powerful reason why he
was induced to come to another conclusion was, that it was

agreed in both Houses of Parliament that some measure of
Reform was absolutely nece•eary. The words had
almost become proverbial—" something must be dente."
Six months having now elapsed, and every opportunity
for deliberation having been afforded, time had proved
that it was not a temporary, a visionary proposition, but a
settled ani determined proposition of Reform which their
Lordships would have to consider. The measure therefore
came befo e the House on this occasion tree from many of
tie considerations which naturally led one in the first in-
stance to reject it.—(Hear, hear.) No other measure
had been proposed. Admitted on all hands was it, that
something, must be done ; and as had been truly said yes-
terday, no alternative had been left, no other measure had
been proposed to their Lordships.—(Loud cheering.)
14 voting for the second reading of this measure, he
by no means pledged himself to the support of the
essential, vital parts of the measure, unless satisfactory
to his own mind. Much discussion had taken place upon
what were the real principles of this Bill ; he trusted

therefore th :t a candid construction would be put upon
the conduct of thorns wt o voted for the second reading
of the Bill, and who might in committee oppose certain
parts of it. Reserving to himself that discretion, he felt
clear in his conscience in giving his vote in favour of the
second reading. He trusted there would be a spirit of
conciliation on both sides, and that there would be a gene-
rat disposition to preserve the tranquillity and happiness
of tke country.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would not have con-
sidered himself justifiable, upon the motion for the Record
reading of a Bill so similar in its principles to the one
which had so recently been before the House, of occupy-
ing time in niaking observations thereon ; but he
felt bound in this stage, and at the period to which
this discussion had come, to make some re-
marks upon opinions which hid been advanced in
the course of this debate in opposition to the measure.
In doing so it was not his purpose, as he did not feel it to
be his duty, to inquire how far the Right Rev. Prelate who
sp. ke first was accurate in stating in a manner so clear,
satisfactory, and; able—so calmly and so candidly, his
intention of supporting this Bill upon the ground of the
necessity of a great change being effected. He should not
feel it to be his duty to inquire whether the Right Rev.
Prelate acted an unwise or improper part in not
taking into his councils for that purpose the Right
Reverend Prelate who spoke bst hut one, and
who avowed himsell to be the enemy of all Reform...—
He understood how that Right Rev. Prelate might feel it
to be his object, and at the same time might act con-
sistent!y with his vie.v of the question, to act the part
of a recruiting officer--(Cheers)—no doubt with that
sincerity which peculiarly belonged to him.—(Cheers.)--
He should come-
,presently to some of the observations
that had been made by the Right Rev. Prelate upon the
charac'er and extent of the changes which were proposed
to be etTected by the Bill. But first of all be would wish
to sav, that in the consideration of the present most
weighty and most anxious subject, he agreed with that Right
Rev. Prelate, and with other Noble Peers, that on those
who originated the Bill rested a great responsibility, not to
be confined to his Noble Friend at the head of the Go-
vernment, but to be shared by those members of it who
were less conspietroos than his Noble Friend ; en them all
rested a very great responsibility—a responsibility
only inferior to that which could have rested upon them
if they could have remained silently contemplating the
situation in which the country was then placed—the es.
trangvment and alienation of the people from the Go.
vernment which were then perceptibly growing, the
irritation between the middle and upper classes
of society which was breaking out in every part
and which threatened the existence of the political machine.
fie repeated, he should have felt contempt for himself, and
contempt for his Noble Friend, if they hail shrunk from
the task of endeavouring to heal those wounds under
which the country was suffering, and of bringing together
that connexion in society which was every day perceptibly
severing ; if they had forborne to restore peace and bar-
rner
would tell the Right Reverend Prelate that was not
n
revolution, and, in asserting that it was, he had
izeto
but
tk ttlineirreouva,utpee.a_ce(Launuddeoterbrfenerrts—.)notHtoe
tnrlYu' t i o andn
read the History of England wrong.--(Cheers.) It
had been justly stated by a Noble Lord who spoke early
in the debate, who, by an act of justice, to which he
wouldcethnet
a absurdities
eimtdi
en to :
tp auv
vr tais:euapltaarsilu‘g ai
possible
audtfoer, hadHaou been
sne:antthi,a
tevoenercyfe re-
cently
that of an immutable state of the law in a mutable state
of things was the Most conspicuous. There were changes
which were always incidental to the nature of the world,
and of society in every stage. There was no safety in
those unavoidable national changes which were taking
place, unless the Legislature took care to watch their progress
and to prepare for them. It was on. that system alone
that any thing could be perfect. He wan not prepared
to found any change that was
proposed by the present Bill
on any new doctrines and new circumstances; but what
he called on their Lordships to do was, to agree upon
how far new circumstances required the application of oil
.loetrines. That was ail that was proposed by the
present Bill—to go back to the elements of the Constitu-
tion.—(llear.) Was there anything, he would ask of the
Right Rev. Prelate, in the extension of the right of voting
to landholders, leaseholders, copvliolders, and others, who
had not that right before—to give that privilege to persons
who had such practical knowledge and such wealth
as gave them a certain weight iu society? Was
there anything in the enfranchisement of large, populous,
end wealthy places, which had grown so from the enter-
prise and spirit of individuals, or in the disfranchisement
of those places which had gone to decay ? Was there
any thing, he would ask, there to be found-which
vsB not found in that state of society which formed
:he basis of the Constitution ?—(Hear, and cheers.)
If he looked to other countries as well as to this, he found
:!rat it was on that very power which was acquired by
charge of circumstances that their existence depended•
He would refer their Lordships to the free Consti-
ution of the United States.—(Loud cries of Hear.")
f the great men who drew up that Constitution
ad been guilty of the folly of precluding the accession of
he new States, the re would have been an end by this
me of that ecneitution. He asked them, 11 their Lord