The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-07 00:00:00

THE POOR LAWS.

Mr. ROEBUCK presented a petition from Colonel
William Napier, complaining of cruelty on the part
of the parish officers of Freshford to the paupers
of that parish. The Hon. Member proceeded to relate some
of the particulars as given in evidence before the Commis.
sioners, who had instituted an enquiry into the transaction ; but
Mr. Secretary GOULBURN suggested to the Hon. Gen-
tleman that it was quite unnecessary to take up the time of the
House in repeating that evidence, as it was the intention of
Government to make the case a matter of judicial enquiry.—
( Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK would ask the Right Hon. Secretary,
whether he meant to say that he would direct a prosecution to
be instituted at once?
Mr. GOULBURN said that he would propose to call
upon the parish to prosecute, because, if the parish autho-
rities exercised proper vigilance, such circumstances could not
take place. But if it were found that the parish did not take
up the case in a proper manner, a prosecution should then be
instituted at the expense of the Crown.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. ROEBUCK did not think it necessary, after the obser-
vation of the Right Hon. Secretary, to say more on the subject,
except that he hoped that the prosecution would not be left to
the parish. He had also heard of similar circumstances which
bad been encouraged and perpetrated by parochial authorities,
at the head of whom was a Christian minister.
Major BE AUC LERC said the House, and the whole
country must, he thought, now be thoroughly convinced that
the new Poor Law Bill would not work--(" No, no," from
many Hon. Members)—and that it was a complete failure.
He could assure the House, that in the county which he had
the honour to represent, it was found totally ineffective, and
productive of great evil and hardship.
Col. WOOD said the gentlemen who advocated this Bill last
session would recollect he had warned them against the effects of
that measure, and this petition completely verified the alarm
which lie and other Members had expressed respecting the
consequences of that Bill.—(" No, no.") Hon. Members said
no, but he said yes ; and he thought that such atrocities ought
to call forth the sympathies of every Englishman.—( Hear.)
He had foreseen and foretold these evils, and the probability
of such cases of hardships as the petition described. And how
could it be otherwise when all power was taken out of the
hands of the parochial authorities, and every case referred to the
Central Board ? He proposed a system last session which would
be better, by binding the power and superintendence of the
parochial authorities, and of persons appointed by the govern-
ment. Hear, hear, hear.) This proposition, however,
would not he listened to by the House which seemed to
be infatuated in favour of their favourite measure.--( Hear. )
His clauses were rejected in the Committee—in fact they
had been put down by general clamour. —( Loud cries of
"hear, hear.") The moment the magistrates' name was
mentioned, their interference was scouted—the clauses were
hardly listened to, and the Bill passed without almost any mo-
dification.—( Hear.) Such modifications as were introduced,
were brought in with very great difficulty. He was glad that
the Hon. Member for Bath had brought the matter under the
consideration of the House. It was gratifying that the
Central Board was only a temporary one, and, he trusted,
that some mole would be devised by which the severities to
which the poor were exposed would be obviated. He would
not prolong the discussion by any further observations, but he
was satisfied that before the Bill could be permanently placed
upon the Statute Book, some mode of alleviating the ills of
the poor must be devised.--(" Cries of Hear, hear, hear.")
Mr. GOULBURN wished to set the Hon. and Gallant
Member right with respect to a fact.—( Hear, hear.) He did
not mean to offer any opinion upon the matter before
the House, nor did he wish to prolong the discussion.
The cruelties complained of had been carried on in the
workhouse of a parish for which the Commissioners
had issued no rules or regulations.—( Hear.) Therefore that
parish was in the state in which it would, have been if no such
Bill had passed.—(Loud cries of "hear, hear.") With
respect to the power of interference on the part of
magistrates, he would remind the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber, that in the Act which passed last session there was a clause
reserving to magistrates every power and authority which
they had heretofore exercised until the new orders had
been issued.—( Renewed cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") He
thought it only just to make that statement, without giving
any opinion upon the improvement which the Bill had
effected ; but he thought it right to vindicate the commis-
sioners from having had any thing to do with the severeties
which had been practiced.
Colonel WOOD explained.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the petition alleged that' the over-
seers were guilty of gross misconduct for three years.
Colonel WOOD said that the pecuniary allowance of the
poor was reduced to eighteen pence, and that previous to the
Act of last Session, two magistrates had the power to take it
away entirely.
Mr. PO ULETT SCR OPE said he did not rise to make a
speech against the Poor Law Amendment Bill of last Session,
but he would state what was the real state of the law and
the case, to prevent any misunderstanding from going abroad
on the question, and if possible to prevent any similar occur-
rence to that now complained of from taking place. With
regard to the parish of Freshford, it was equally true that the
disorders mentioned existed there before the passing of the
new Act, and the Commissioners were not responsible. Other
parties were responsible. Besides the overseers, the magis-
gistrates were also. Before and after the Act any single Ma-

gistrate had the power of putting an end to such irregularities
as those now complained of. It was perfectly true that by the
Act of last Session, Magistrates were prevented from giving
poor-house relief. But there was an Act, the 30th of Geo.
111., chapter 49, which was not repealed by the Act of last
Session, and which empowered any one Magistrate to visit a
work-house, and if he found any irregularity in it, if he found
poor persons not sufficiently relieved, badly clad, or diseased,
he might certify the same to some neighbouring Magistrate,
and make in conjunction with him regulations so as to amply
remedy such abuses. He thought, therefore, that it was com-
petent for the Magistrates to inspect the Freshfield work-
houses, and if abuses were found in them to put a stop to them
summarily. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Goulburn) would not limit his inquiry to the overseers alone,
but would call upon the Magistrates to show why they had
neglected their duty. If at the Quarter Sessions there was
power to prosecute his Gallant Friend (Colonel Napier) would
have had, he was sure, recourse to that tribunal, and would
have found in that. way a speedy remedy to the abuses of the
Freshfield workhouses. He threw out his suggestions of local
tribunals for the consideration of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. BENETT asked if under the old or new law those
houses were really workhouses ? If not, no appeal could be
made to the Magistrates, and neither they nor the overseers
were to blame.

Mr. ROEBUCK, in explanation, said that the houses be-
longed to the parish, and the paupers were sent to them by
the parish officers. They had been treated as poor-houses
both by the Commissioners and the Assistant Commissioners.
He had intended to say a few words in vindication of the Com-
missioners, but he would abstain from doing so on the present
occasion. He was however bound in justice to assert that the
poor were in a better situation under the new law than they
had been in under the old. Assistance was more promply ex-
tended to them by the Commissioners than ever it had been
by the Magistrates ; and, therefore, he believed that non's but
those who -had never read the Poor Law Act, and knew nothing
about its provisions decried it.

Mr. MiL ES, as one of the representatives of the county of
Somerset, rose for the purpose of speaking in vindication of
the Magistrates of that county ; and he thought that the Hon.
Member for Bath might have spared the observations which
he had made respecting the Rev. Mr. Joyce (we believe),
than whom a more honourable and upright man did not exist.
Mr. ROEBUCK—It was stated in the petition that Col.
Napier had applied to the magistrates, but that they declined
to interfere, alleging that the new law had divested them of
the powers which they exercised under the old law.
Mr. MILES contended that the magistrates were deprived
by the new law of the powers which they had under the old law.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
SUPPLY.

On the motion of Sir R. PEEL, that the report of the Com-
mittee of Supply be brought up,
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet
whether it was his intention when the House next went into a
Committee of Supply to ask for votes (as we understood) for
the army and navy establishment for the ensuing year ?
Sir R. PEEL, in answer to the question which the Noble
Lord has put to me I beg to say that it is my intention to ask
for the usual votes for the army and navy establishments.
The navy estimates were intended to be brought forward on
Monday next, the day fixed for the House resolving itself into
a Committee of Supply ; but as these estimates are not yet
printed, and cannot be ready for circulation by that day, I pur-
pose postponing them until the Friday following this day week.
Mr. G. T. YOUNG wished to know when the Hon.
Members might expect to receive these estimates ?
Sir R. PEEL, the instant they are ready they shall be cir-
culated.

Mr. HUME thought that they should not be called upon
to vote those supplies until they had seen and examined the
estimates. He had not yet read them, and as other Honour-
able Gentlemen were in the same situation, how was it pos-
sible for them to be expected to vote away the public money 1
Sir R. PEEL—It is on that very account that I have post-
poned their being brought forward until Friday. I felt that
Monday was too early a day.
Mr. HUME thought that as the estimates were not yet in
the hands of the Hon. Members they should not be brought on
before Monday week.—( Cries of hear from the Members on
the Opposition side of the House.)
Mr. BERNAL then brought up the report of the Corn-
mittee, which was received and ordered to be read.

Mr. HUME wished to take that opportunity of putting a
question to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, with respect to
the recommendation of a Committee (of which he had been a
member) that had sat on the subject of reducing the income
of the Speaker, and the salary of his Secretary, and suggest-
ing that an alteration should be made in the practice of pro-
viding a service of plate for each new Speaker. In the case
of Ambassadors, it had been fixed that the plate should
pass with the office—and as the Committee were of opinion
that the same principle should be applied, in the case of the
Speaker—he wished to know if it was the intention of the
Right Honourable Baronet to carry that recommendation into
effect ?

Sir R. PEEL—On the appointment of the present Speaker
I of course made the necessary reference to the report to
which the Hon. Member for Middlesex refers. I read the
suggestions contained in it with the attention which they de-
serve, and thinking them in every way good I can assure the
House that it is the intention of the Government to adopt
them as far as may be convenient.—( Hear, hear.) It will
not only be an advantage to the Speaker himself, but an eco-
nomical arrangement in a public point of view that a proper
service of plate should now be provided for the use of the
Speaker, and that the same should from time to time be
handed over by each Speaker to his successor in the Chair of
this House. The arrangement will effect a considerable an-
nual saving. I stated to the Right Hon. Gentleman himself
the course which the Government intend adopting, and I can
only add that not only in this instance but in every other re-
spect it is my determination to adhere to the recommendation
of the Committee, and act upon the principle which they have
laid down in their report.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said there was one other point connected with
this subject on which he desired information, and that related
to the Chaplain of the House. Hitherto the practice had
been to provide for the Speaker's Chaplain by giving him a
Church sinecure, but this was considered by the Committee
as a highly objectionable arrangement. They recommended
that a stated salary should be given to the Clergyman who
officiated in that House, and what he wished to know was
whether the Right Hon. Baronet meant to abide by their
recommendation in this instance as in all the other cases.

Sir R. PEEL—When the appqintment of the next Chap-
lain takes place it is intended that the recommendation of the
Committee in this respect shall also be followed. Suspending
the present nomination would render a new arrangement ne-
cessary, and that is deemed unadvis able under existing cir-
cumstances.

The SPEAKER should leave all matters connected with
the office which he had the honour to fill at the discretion of
the House.

Mr. HUME hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet opposite
would not bring forward the estimates before Monday week,
as it would not (so we understood the Hon. Member) be con-
venient for him to be in his place on Friday.
Sir R. PEE L—My private feeling in this, as in all other
cases, must give way to my sense of public duty. This day
week I hope to be able to bring forward the Navy Estimates,
and Hon. Members will have plenty of opportunity to examine
them before that day.

Mr. HUMS said that when the question of voting those
estimates came before the House, he should, if no other Hon.
Gentleman did so, feel it his duty to submit that the estimates
for six months only should be voted. He should take this
course in order to see what sort the measures were which the
Right Hon. Baronet intended to bring forward..—( Cries from
a few Members on the Opposition side of the House of " Three
mouths, three months.")

The report was then read by the Clerk, and, together with
items mentioned in it, agreed to.
CHESTER CRIMINALS EXECUTION BILL.
On the motion for further considering the report of the
Committee on this Bill,
Mr. JE RVIS made some observations, but as the Hon.
Gentleman spoke from one of the back seats under the Gallery
on the Opposition side of the House not even the substance of
his remarks were heard.

The ATTORNEY. GENERAL said that although a
doubt certainly existed as to the party by whom execution
was to be done under the existing law, an arrangement had
been made by his Noble Friend the Chief Baron of the Ex-
chequer, with the officers of Chester, by which business in
such cases would be done as heretofore.
After some observations from Lord GROSVENOR and Mr.
WILBRAHAM, which were inaudible,
Mr. JERVIS moved, as an amendment on one of the clauses,
that the words " the Sheriffs shall be liable to execute" in-
stead of " shall execute."

The amendment having been concurred in the report was
(as we understood) agreed to.
ORANGE SOCIETIES.
Mr. SHE IL rose, pursuant to the notice which he had
given, to move that there be laid before the House a copy of
a letter written by Lord Manners, at the time Lord Chan-
cellor of Ireland, to Johnson, Esq., a Justice of the
Peace, relative to the legality of Orange Societies ; to-
gether with copies of the opinions of the Irish Attorney
and Solicitor General, given between the years 1825 and
1827, on the same subject. Also copies of the addresses pre-
sented to his Majesty from the Trinity College District
Orange Lodge, and from other Lodges of the same decription
established in the city of Dublin and the county of Down,
together with the answers given thereto by the Right Hon.
Gentleman the secretary for the Home Department. And,
lastly, copies of the address from the Birmingham Political
Union, alluded to on a former night, and the answer for-
warded to the parties from whom that address had been re-
ceived. On Wednesday last a question was raised in that
House as to the legality of Orange societies, and it was on
that occasion suggested that no competent authority had ever
yet decided that such associations were illegal. But what did
he find in a debate that took place on this very subject in the
year 1813, when the question was brought forward by the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn) the present Chancellor
of the Duchy of Cornwall? Why, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman expressly declared that such societies were con-
trary to the spirit and intent of the Act of the 39th Geo. 111.,
c. 79, which was passed in the year 1799; and in his opinion
both Mr. Canning and Lord Castlereagh concurred. It was
on that occasion the prevailing sentiment of the House that
Orange societies tended much to interrupt the peace and
harmony of Ireland; but what was the result when the sub-
ject was again brought before Parliamen, in 1827, by Mr.
Brownlow ? Why, that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the pre-
sent Secretary for the Home Department, in proof of the
illegality of these societies, referred to the opinion of Lord
Plunkett, the then Irish Attorney-General. He knew it
might be said that Lord Plunkett had peculiar predilections
on such a question ; but the Solicitor-General, Mr. Joy, now
Chief Baron of the Irish Court of Exchequer, was not open

to the same observation, and he sustained the opal's"
Lord Plunkett had given.—( Hear.) Not only ivas that, ea,.
Ilion decisive as to the illegality of Orange societies, but the
Right Hon. Gentleman, in confirmation of it, referred to
lar
letter of Lord Manners to Mr. Johnson, in which a sirei3
doctrine was laid down.—[ the Hon. and Learned Gentletali,
read a copy of this letter, and it appeared from it that not
M did Lord Manners differ from r. Johnson with respect !
construction of the Act, but that his Lordship declaredca"ase
his opinion that Orange processions were illegal, be
Orange nand
Orange societies were in contravention of the law ] Such
the sentiments of the highest legal authorities in Ireland'
yet, in the face of this document, they were told that no ••c
potent tribunal had ever decided that these associations wet
illegal. This letter and the other papers for which he Ole. it
move would, he thought, set the matter at rest, and little,,,,
was that he sought for their production. In the observatT-:
he might make he would studiously abstain from utteringrtf„
thing that could be offensive to the feelings of any one 'al,
heard him ; but he relied on a simple statement of facts,
his
bis
though he would candidly acknowledge that the object e.,1,,fa
motion was to fix upon the present Government the c'".vd,
of having given countenance to Orange Societies in
in order to perpetuate their factious ascendancy, and proelssl
their baneful effects in that country.—( Hear.) The adclr.e.%
which had been presented to his Majesty from these soctr.,
were extremely numerous, but he had made a selection' r'su'e
them. in order to save the time of the House, for the purPa°.,i.
of illustrating the feelings by which such bodies were
„',
mated, and throwing a stronger light upon the conduct of
Government respecting them.—( Hear.) [The /10e.,,Pfril
Learned Gentleman here read from the Dublin Evening
long reports of the proceedings of the Orange lodges 1 ut',.
whence the addresses he alluded to had emanated, conitr:li),
ing on them as he proceeded.] These addresses avo
came from Orange lodges, and he contended that th 6 cbs_tltes
tion made as to their being not the addresses of those b"o
but of the individuals who signed them, was an unsubstantce.
distinction, and one that led, so far as political effect was Cie
corned, to the same identical political results.—( Hear.) '1,4
Hon. and Learned Gentleman next adverted to the gria..o
aggregate meeting of the Orange Societies which took Pit
in December last at Merchants' Hall, Dubliti, at ntt'e
the Lord Mayor of that city was present, and read to ;r,
Houses the verses recited on that occasion by the Rey- n,,
M'Crea, which, he said, though contemptible in point of c.o.cli
position, sufficiently evinced the odious sentiments by Oil,
all Orangemen were animated. Hon. Gentlemen sitting' us
the other side of the House were members of Orange Ledg,et;
and he called upon them now to declare whether the sentime .10
embodied in the verses which Mr. AP Crea had delivererl4o
r 0'
the occasion referred to, were not such as every membe
Orange society entertained. Mr. M.Crea, too, was a elltit
man.—(Cries of " No, no I") He believed that he was, be
whether he belonged to the Established Church or net' 0.
would not take upon himself to say. This, too, was the Sal
individual who had written to the Right Hon. Baronet 0,1),P,0,
site ( Sir Robert Peel) in language which the Right
Baronet had—and most properly, and much to his praiseele.
pudiated iu strong terms. The Right Hon. Baronet th
cretary for Ireland was in office at the time Lord O'Neil, .0
dismissed for hoistinc, an Orange flag, and he (Mr. Sueio
would put it to that Right Hon. Gentleman, whether it ir
right of the Lord-Lieutenant to attend a dinner given
Lord Mayor who had been present at a meeting where sal
sentiments as those delivered by Mr. M'Crea were eaPressssi
The Right Hon. Gentleman smiled at this ; but did the R's
Hon. Gentleman recollect the conduct of Lord AagLesiTe
when invited to dine with Lord Cloncurry, while that Mitc,
Lord was a member of the Catholic Association ? Lord, the
glesey, on that ground, and that ground alone, decline a the
invitation, although there was no pretence for saying o°oo
Catholic Association was an illegal bOdya—(l-fear.) er
Hon. and Learned Gentleman here read the titles and et°o
parts of the addresses which he had selected for the purP°,..i,
of his motion, and after observing on its being avowed 10 ea
p,
that it came from the members of an Orange lodge, he Oil),
tended that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the SecretaryOr.o
Home Department, was not in his answers to them Justisieg
in characterising them as "loyal and dutiful," and sa);,:e
that " his Majesty had been graciously pleased to reelio
them," the Right Honourable Gentlemen at the t,b,
well knowing that they came from bodies which were
Here then was an address from Trinity College, which Of' Ili;
not for a gracious reply, but rather for the reprobation 0'
Majesty's advisers. Was it not lamentable that in the °Je't
institution in Ireland where Catholics and Protestants Initb
they were not allowed to live in harmony and peace, re
each other--( Cheers from the Opposition)—that in a P thea
which should be sacred to the quiet pursuits of literature 19
Secretary of State for the Home Department should net °bes
not reprove the exhibition of acrimonious party feeling',., to
on the contrary, consent to return an answer which see'l?e
tbe
intimate an approval ? Was it fair—was it manly, fk,,eoo
Government thus to sanction associations which bat "-s,OO
again and again denounced ? If the support of tlsat
was necessary to the Government, let them franklY,rso
fairly acknowledge their dependence upon them. 0.
Honourable and Learned Gentleman then submitted his
Lion as above.
Mr. GOULBURN asked whether it was fair, afterutif,
Hon. Gentleman had given a notice to move for the pr°.'oe
tion of copies of the answers given by the Secretary °L
Home Department to certain addresses from Orang,e a
other Societies—was it fair for him to move for a eoPY
letter written by Lord Manners, founded on the opinions ° the
law officers of that day, and other documents betweea,;
dates of 1825 and 1827 ? Could the Hon. Gentleman e%crs
that he (Mr. Goulburn) could be prepared to answer oulies,
or produce documents relative to such a period ? If the,A not
Gentleman was of that opinion the House certainly tvet'itly
expect an acquiescence in the Hon. Gentleman's motion, 'Y
out any time being allowed to refer to the correspondencet'w
(Cheers.) With respect to that part of the Hon. Geatte
man's address which related to addresses presented °° se
part of persons describing themselves as members of _,e
Societies, and the answers returned to those addressc'hO
(Mr. Goulburn) had already stated on a former occasion t to
he had no objection to their production. He was re3dZerit
produce those documents, for he felt perfectly con 01,
that there was nothing in the answers returned to ,lass tag`
dresses calculated to uphold those institutions, and to
was further from his intention than in the slightest degr'felt,
give encouragement to exclusive societies. fie merely aeci
in returning those answers he was fulfilling an ordineld
routine duty in formally acknowledging those as be cc a¢d
acknowledge any other addresses which might be forty.% to
to the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) He had no objecned
the production of the answers, because he felt that he,i,ig
no motive whatsoever to wish for their concealment. 1),°;,50
the time which he had been in office as many as 500 ady,'n"-tbe
had been received, and they had been acknowledared
usual form. About twelve he a-apposed of these address° "or
stated as " from the undersigned members of Orange ip
all
,ions." He would not undertake to say that' he had re as'
these addresses, but was satisfied with taking their conteat,9cces
nerally from the representations of those who presented the
as he believed was the usual custom when a large
were presented.—( Hear.) As he before stated, tWe'-go'
these were from persons who professed themselves to be trt."5,01
bers of Orange institutions, and the reply was in the
~,t1
form, stating that his Majesty 'had been pleased to re'l;s4
them in the most gracious manner. He had looked 1,0.
since this discussion had been first raised, to asccrtaill„w,3o
ther he had been misled in the practice which he had au'i be
either generally or as regarded this particular society, bi1.,401
found upon inquiry that he had not departed from theirtiol
course. Ile found that in 1831, during the periodwhen P°)lt,te'
Unions were most numerous, that several addresses wer,,eeaGlf
sented to the Crown from many of those bodies, e%ll-s*sel:
styling themselves members of various Political Unions' -se
as the Bristol, the Leeds, the Sheffield, the Biamingh°,.',ls,
to all of these an answer was given in the following, w°l,-isi'
" I had the honour of laying your address before the re•
and I have the satisfaction to assure yois that his Maiett'so)
ceived the same in the most gracious manner "—(CP:tile
This, then, had been the practlte heretofore, .so long -sails•,
tone of the address was not considered objectionable, and 'lgoe
the conduct of the parties from it came was orderly. Vetdoob,
was some difference in the two instances, but n°
opted,
when the addresses of the Political Unions were Pres'
par
and thus graciously answered, it had been forgotten that $0,0.4e
clamation had been issued which distinctly warned anni laced
;
who took part in these unions of their illegality, and r.,,atis6
those who still adhered to them in resistance to the elr th°
law.--( Loud cheers.) He did not refer to these factS 1° tat
purpose of casting any imputation upon his predecess°r:ses'
marely to show that it was not the practice to enter into a 'pre'
tion of the legality or illegality of addresses respect e'v's
sented, but they were usually received with a gracious ae-ribr
ledgment.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman "11°,501
brought forward the motion had mixed up the simple
involved in his notice many other exciting topics, andllB
to the House newspaper extracts and descriptions Ontal-10°'
impassioned and party language. He would ask the
to the
Gentleman, or (if the Hon. Gentleman was insensiblele for,
appeal) he would ask that House, whether it was possib
the Secretary for the Home Department to take' eogniii.ai)subli.{
all the topics, and weigh all the expressions used a": al"
meetings as preliminary to the presentation of an addreseliagfr
topics of an exciting nature were introduced at these Ille-ctirte'
would that be a ground on which to refuse the usual ue tiso
sies ?—( Cheers.) He would not longer trespass oil t7tesleo('
of the House, but if it was intended to impute to hit.° -.1117,g
to keep up institutions calculated to create or contia9eests,
or division between any classes of his Majesty's subi%
person making such an imputation did him the greate.asii, Lb°
tice.—( Loud cheers.) He had himself introduced a Pulistely
tendency of which was in direct opposition to any suc-sls dry
Lion. It was a measure from which many of his frienby b
sented, yet still he persevered in it, and judging of hirtlsit
past conduct, he felt satisfied that the House would ael-essa.,)
from an imputation so much at variance 'with it.—(Ct II
-
Mr. FE ARGUS O'CONNOR said that the Rig"eea tP"
Gentleman had attempted to make an analogy be,itsicci so uir
Orange Institution and the Political Unions. Hepc IV
reminding the House that the former were declared to sett
gal by proclamation. He (Mr. O'Connor), begged to f
that the Orange Institution was opposed to the lawsli°,lerg;
country, but the proclamation which it was asserted reIP
the other illegal, only went to the extent of forbidun.loei
members from meeting in large numbers. The Righttadil°a
Gentleman had attempted to defend himself, but he' si
done so.—(, Oh !" and a laugh.) He (Mr. O'Connoro'iotiol
glad his Hon. Friend had brought forward the present spurt
and he trusted he would persevere in it. He trusted -her
press it to a division. The Hon. and Learned Men\ nor' c
on to say, that he had published six extracts fromtbei
persons formerly in power in Ireland, declaratory, '1
il• ll
opinion respecting the legality of the Orange Institnt!c":„ bee,
work had been suppressed, 3,000 copies of it bavis(7eurce
seized; but, scarce as it was, he should contrive to 140
of
copy for the Right Hon. Baronet opposite &ern sitioll
might be able to form a correct of the conallio, a°
the Orange Society in Ireland. In conclusion, the "

Imber declared that the Irish Members were fre-
fah
~.2a; obliged to address the House in terms much warmer
awe heated than under ordinary circumstances they de-
'ea Bet now they were allied to a powerful and influential
Party
'whowould
e give them their aid when they saw they had
iseereal geevance to complain of, and for the irritation they were
pr;l7°brlig,ed.
.to display, they should now substitu the moral
which they possessed, and he had no doubt it would he
successful in its application.—( Hear, hear )
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the Hon. and Learned
Member might be about to substitute some of that moral
strength which he possessed for the irritation which, as he
himself
e observed, he had hitherto displayed. But he ( Sir R.
should take leave to say that the Hon. and Learned
that night
had no justification for the degree of it which he had
night exhibited, even in ils mitigated form.---( A laugh,
aand hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member took fire much
t easily appeared to him to boil at a very low tempo-
bre, and he thought he should be able to convince him that
eivas without am justification for the ebullition he had just
exhibited. The Hon. Gentleman had observed that he was
7,i r sustained by a powerful party, and that they should try
Ia- strength. And what, he would ask, was the precise
futestion upon which he proposed to snake this trial of strength ?
at Hon. and Learned Member beside him had given notice
talai‘aar he meant to move for the production of certain documents
been from certain societies, and the answers which had
nieeeeri returned to them by the Secretary of State for the Home
lepartment—because he imagined upon the production of
Seerthese documents he could find some charge criminatory of the
etary of State. Well, his Right Hon. Friend (the Se
wcretsry for the Home Department) declared all along that he
tould agree to the motion of the Hon. and Learned -Member,
hinti? he would produce copies of the Orange addresses and of
ior ,°‘','n answers ; and he ( Sir Robert Peel) declared that,
his Part, be had no objection that the Honourable and
raised Member should be put in possession of these do-
cuments, which were to be the preliminary to his further
!tceeedings,_( Cheers.) But the Hon. and Learned Ge-
ntleman had not thought proper to adhere to the terms of his
notice,
but moved for copies of Lord Manner's letter—of the
opinions of the Irish law-officers—and of various letters from
various bodies—not specified in the notice which the Hon. and
.Learned Gentleman had given. Such had been the notice, and
ouch had been the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member—
f(Hear,) He asked them—emphatically asked—the Hon. and
arned Member opposite to take his division—( Loud cheers
t,Oati,i the Ministerial benches) ; and he declared to the House
he should infinitely prefer being in a minority upon a mo-
!on of that kind, than be found amongst the Hon. Member's
pe°werful majority"—( Renewed cheering.) He contended
at the Hon. and Learned Member's notice had misled the
foru,se,—( Hear, hear) ; and having given notice of a motion
t the production of certain documents, and having found
heat the Secretary of State consented to their production,
a v (Sir Robert Peel) would contend, in the face of
ans. majority, that it was not fair without any previous no.
liteation tofor the production of the letter of the
char
~ move
.eellor, written in I 527, and of other documents which
ntia nos previously been even referred to.—( Cheers.) It
!ak:it be right that these documents should be produced—but
Bwas not fair of the Hon. and Learned Member to move for
osse walhout having given any previous notice of his inten-
iatnt Had the Hori. and Learned Meber given notice of his
cat on—then it might remain to berry considered, whether or
not there was any ground for objecting to it.—( Hear, hear.)
lid what assignable motive could there be for refusing to
enniply with the usage in such cases ?a--( Near, hear.) With
taieference to one part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
P°tinn he „should observe, that he had heard, in debates in
liarliainent,Members refuse to receive the opinions of
.Ivgly officers to guide them. " They are nothing to guide us,
ttliaeanlie tenor of the language held. "We are not bound by
----vve will reason on them with distrust."—( Hear, hear.)
ge had known men who claimed for themselves the characters
binirig defenders of the rights of the Constitution, who
tlllo' protested against receiving the opinions of the law
He hey protested to direct the judgment of that House.—( Hear, hear.)
as
:ed the House then, at least, to take time to consider
I lether or not they were willing to accept the opinions of the
n, °Meet of the for the object for which they were
u
a--( Hear, hear.) It was a grave question to decide
he even after the maturest deliberation, and therefore did
;. 'nPe that the Hon. and Learned Member would go to his
stiv.lsintz, and having no moral strength to rely upon, would
""R' the House the physical power upon which he depended.
esheers from the Ministerial beaches.) He had con-
theric n in th e manliness of the Hon. and Learned Member,
that he Would
.redeem his pledge, and take his division upon
aihei question—(l.l%oud cheers)—upon the only question upon
'ell the House was called upon to decide. The Secre-
thatY for the Home _Department, the House would recollect,
team Promised to proatace the addresses and the answers con-
iitnPlated -in the' origins,l notice of the Hon. and Learned
were for Tipperary, ant? therefore, the only question they
1,1-ete called upoa to decide rises, should the additional docu-
tent§ he produced ?—( Hear, :lean.) Upon that question,
(peta, let the Hon. and Learned Member take his division.-
-diet's.) He would now come to the speech of the Hon.
441,.„-"earned Member. The object CI. he motion was, not to
.41 -whether the Secretary of Stnte had adopted the
but 1-tnrin in acknowledging the receipt of ceilain addresses,
teat,bether in making that acknowledgment he least any n 7
AuTill Of countenancing an exclusive society ?—( Hear, hear.)
ten Member had said to him, " You know you yourself
-thst-4-Z ed this society, as you found it necessary to govern
aocg,,. their instrumentality."—(We understood the Right
e'e,„ -Ironet to advert to an observation used by Mr. Feargus
im-n11;,),2r but which did not reach us in the gallery.)
steql% ARGUS O'CONNOR—" I said" (as we under-
tow; t.te Hon. and Learned Member) "that your opinion
t 'a 1 uarnetric-lly opposed to that which you formerly en-
ertah„d. a' -at iiii‘„ll• PEEL should endeavour to show that he was not
ttme an; encourager of this exclusive society. He should
11,,,, ,to a decla;ation which he had formerly made, and which
had aunen advertest_ to by the Hon. and Learned Member wbo
tla st introduced' the motion. But it might be said that
eali(liecloli aration was neade after he had changed his opinion on
he
.Emancipation. No—it was delivered in 1827, when
ana4s,suPposed to be aiS encouraeer of the Orange system,t
`;'re lie had brought forward the question of Catholic
iala-on'Pation. He should read from a speech of his delivered
" (1„-47, a Passage which wouln show that he did not then
ifoillena it necessary to encourage this Society." The Right
sect
taronet then read from Hanstard's Debates, on the sub-
sp,etni_f Orange institutions, the fol;',ewing extract from a
e F. 'delivered by him :
‘Vish aws,t, however, he must be allowed to say, that he heartily
th,ve'a.t these Associations were at an end. He believed that
Ilightwet„re dying away • but at the same time he agreed with the
it i',"isQ-",Lion • Baronet, that if the processions were stone away with,
es be
.better forth • peace, the tranquillity, and the happiness
the -sc:and. .Any ()pinion therefore,' which he might hold, any of
Fathti°sg ePhoiOns which, he was known to entertain respecting
him hc
Etriane.ipation, could not fairly be supposed to influencei
irela'Qumll(rn, the present question. If he were a private gentleman in
he declared to God that he would, by his influence, by his
aNai'ail, by every means in his power, endeavour to put down these
(-ph as and processions."
11 reading e reading of this extract was followed by loud cheers.)
,Sir
CH E IL—Tbat is precisely what I quoted.
neeesr,„'"-- PEEL—But I wish to show that I did not deem it
ata, -ary at any time to encourage this society—that my
opi-
p,~hj`e'vere not " diametrically opposed" at any time upon this
Hear.)
s'.". ORE IL—I never said they were.
froinir
h.,• Pb;' EL-011 no ; but I wish to put your quotation
Rola -3t §Vee.h of 1827 in opposition to the statement of the
R 1 and Learn ed Gentleman beside you.—( Hear.)
in th- O'COl'iNOß—Oh, I give you credit for appearing
Sir two instinct characters.—( Loud laughter.)
PEEL—B,ut I wish to show that I have not ap-
the two distinct characters.—(hear, hear.) The
altva Honourable Baronet then went on to state that he had
Itocia-j tnailirested the most earnest desire to discourage these
andti;:a-(Hear, hear.) That had been his uniform course,
rastersrefore he had not "" appeared in the two distinct cha-
°ten So much for his conduct in 1827.—( Cheers.) But
bee -ee bad been given by a seing—he did not recollect if it had
Se
whether the song had been sung or not—by the
tts'„V:. I\i`Cres. • and the Hon. and Learned Member op-
J'e.„ tita- had referred2to a correspondence which had taken place
tal-en this gentleman and himself (the Chancellor of the
114,e%ecluer.) True, he had eceived an address from Mr.
Iliffr-eaa, and in his reply to float address he stated that he
..,theet-ex',frora the Rev. Gentleman ; for "he (the Chancellor of
Relief cianenuer) did not think it was desirable to repeal the
tzflzaii, 'lli, and to fritter away the law which established
(Isaild`Y ationgst Churchmen, Catholics; and Dissenters."—
ebeeas.—Was this the declaration of a man whose de-
-I,,isl4:(iins to foster and encourage exclusive societies ?—( Con-
41ersil; cheers.) " Oh, but" (says the Hon. and Learned
'jests ° el.) " the constitution of your Government as such as to
aoeiati3resall confidence respecting your conduct towards these
SIR. '?,.SIEIL—I did not say so.
Oaall, es. PEEL—In 1827 came on the discussion An
the ite °ffences, and the person who brought it forward as
ilightit Hon. the Member for Montgomeryshire ; and the
aeleetea''ori• the Member for Montgomeryshire has been
cheer' " by his Majesty as a Member of his Cabinet.—(Loud
desh.en,R..) Did that seem the probable consequence. of a
of. thhci encourage an exclusive confederacy ? Was it a part
Gaverrtheta
which destroyed all confidence," that the
Isa,o ha had selected, as one of its advisers, the very map
4voatead brought forward the Hon. and Learned Member s
d. declaration against the Orangemen of Ireland ?
oose cheers.) But the question, after all, was not—the
tatioilsnlight believe him—the precise legality of these insti-
-knight possess 1,-"( Hear.) It was quite possible that an association
e strictly speaking, conformable to the law, and yet
oiear, all the evil ingredients of a very mischievous body.—
htaltia evil
They would not cure the evil by merely
these societies conform to the law—by preventing
'the; trorn outstepping the limitations of a statute.—( Hear.)
4,,, tar evil consisted, not so much in any direct violation of the
of 4ia the encouragement of angry feeling.—(Loud cries
Hear.") This he had always felt, and it was his con-
sliese a, that though the House 'might succeed in drawing
Iscups°cieties within the exact boundaries of the law, they
aliee'enot by that means remove what constituted the great
aw .li3ts to them.—( Hear, hear.) They could not pass a
lies Preaet:ting an Orange association from excluding Catho-
ta,----( )To be sure they might pass a law rendering
st4taitdmini.atering of an oath illegal ; but if the society
arcet,.4ted a declaration for the oath the principle of an
efkat'lve confe ieracy still remained with all its mischievous
doer and nothilan- was gained by obliging_ this society to aban-
te ,bee oath, when the substitution of a declaration amounted
t 0 the 5:4111e thing.—( Hear, hear.) He really thought that
tato, course adopted towards these societies might be traced
anal°l the evils which they entailed. They were taunted
had bley were menaced—(Cheers)—and the example which
lieniite.n set to them constituted, if not an apology, at least a
tl°ll both for their existence and their determination not

to yield to the just authority of the laws.—( Cheers.) He never
should conceal his opinion on this subject, and it was his con-
viction their being not amenable to the law was not thegreatest
evil of these societies. To these associations he should use
language which might possibly have a better effect than the
most bitter tauntings from others. His language should be,
" You who profess so much loyalty to your Sovereign, do not
set an example to any other party to encourage-the continuance
of these dangerous associations ; and before all avoid comme-
morations—by unnecessary commemorations of past events,
to exasperate the feelings of those who regard them with diffe-
rent feelings, who. look upon them with different eyes from
what you do."—( General cheers.) With respect to the par-
ticular motion before the House, he was really surprised that
Hon. Members on the other side attached so much impor-
tance to those addresses, which were, or rather ought to
have been, the subject of their discussion that evening. The
King's subjects had the privilege—it was their's by their char-
ter of the Bill of Rights—to petition their Sovereign. Did
those who supported the motion of the Honourable and
Learned Member mean to curtail that privilege, or to say
that before his Majesty received the addresses of any portion
of his subjects, he should minutely inquire to what society
they belonged ?—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend beside
him had showed them that the petition of the Political Union
was received.—( Hear, hear.) His Majesty had not informed
the Political Union that they had forfeited their rights as
subjects, by attaching themselves to an association declared,
as his Right Hon. Friend had shown, by proclamation to be
illegal.—( Hear, hear.) But, in the present case, had it not
been clearly shown that the answers of his Right Honourable
Friend were delivered in conformity with the ordinary and
established practice, and that he had no intention of pro-
nouncing on the legality of the institution from which the
address proceeded?—( Hear, hear.) He contended that if
the House recognised the principle of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's motion, they would be attempting to narrow the
rights—to fetter the privilege of the subject to address the
Throne.—( Hear.) They might, it was true, be furthering
their own opposition to that particular body, but they would
be contravening that great principle of the law which gave to
every subject the right of entertaining his own opinion and
expressing it in addresses to the King or to the Parliament.—
( Hear, hear.) If this body, which had been so often ad-
verted to, was illegal, why was it not prosecuted ?—( Hear,
hear.) Where was the difficulty of prosecuting, supposing it
to be illegal ? and of its illegality he was not quite so satis-
fied.—( Cheers.) If it was not illegal. then the advice, the
earnest advice of a sincere friend would be—set an example
of forbearance, of peace, and of obedience to the laws.—
( Loud cheers.) That advice he would venture to say would
produce at least as much impression as any harsh course that
might be dictated by the bitter feelings which one party en-
tertained towards another.--( Cheers.) Again, I would say
(concluded the Right Hon. Baronet) if they be illegal, prose-
cute them ; if they be not illegal, set them the example your-
selves of forbearance.—( Hear, hear.) I trust after the frank
declaration I have made I shall relieve this House from any im-
pression that it is my desire or the desire of his Majesty's Go-
vernment to encourage the existence of societies) the very
constitution of which is at variance with the peace, the hap-
piness, and the prosperity of the country.--( Loud cheers.)
Mr. S HEIL, at the time he gave his original notice, was
not aware of the existence of those documents, for the produc-
tion of which he had subsequently moved. He had only read
them that day upon looking over a debate. He felt the justice
of the observation, that the House was taken by surprise, and
to obviate the objection, would give notice for Thursday night
of the motion which he had that evening submitted to the
House. After a few words in explanation of some other parts
of his speech, the Hon. and Learned Member said he had not
challenged a trial of " physical strength." He should leave
that to his Hon. and Learned Friend beside him.----( Laughter. )
Sir ROBERT PEEL had no idea of provoking a trial of
physical strength" with that Hon. and Learned Member.—
( Continued laughter.) He should have used the word " nu-
merical" for " physical. "—( Laughter.)
Colonel EVANS was glad to hear of the liberality which
prompted the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to return to
all addresses to the Throne the same answer ; and, by way of
commentary, he should only observe, that he had some time
since to present an address from his constituents, regretting, it
was true, the dismissal of the late, and the appointment of the
present Ministry; but he could not recollect that, in the answer
he received, he was apprised that his Majesty had received that
address in the " most gracious manner."—( Laughter and
cheers.)

Col. PERCEVAL would avow himself an Orangeman, and
go into any Court the Hon. and Learned Member might think
proper to select and bide the issue of a trial as to the legality
of this institution.--( Cheers.) Some Hon. Members on the
other side had said that the Orange institution was illegal;
and the reason they assigned was, " The Member for Dublin
told them so."—( Laughter.) In his study in Merrion-square
the Member for Dublin might give an opinion on a case laid
before him, which he ( Colonel Perceval) was not the person
to call in question ; but he could not defer to gratuitous opi-
nions of this kind given for the furtherance of the Hon. Mem-
ber's own purpeses.—( Hear, hear.) That Hon. Member was
in the habit of giving opinions as a lawyer—on cases not laid
before him—and apparently for the purpose of influencing the
judgment of country gentlemen like himself. If the Orange
Society were one which went to encourage bloodshed, he
(Colonel Perceval) would scorn to be a member of any such
sti tut ion.
Mr. O'CONNELL did not know whether he rightly under-
stood the Hon. and Gallant Colonel, the Member for Sligo,
correctly in the offer which he had made to give him all oaths,
tests, or declarations used by the Orange Societies, of which
he avowed himself a Member. Had the Gallant Officer said,
however, that he would give him (Mr. O'Connell) the test
which persons becoming Orangemen gave, in order to get into
a lodge— the test, too, by which they ascertained whether a
man was an Orangeman or not ?
Col. PERCEVAL—Yes, I will.
Mr. O'CONNELL—He forgot the declaration and the
test I Now he would take upon himself to declare that upon
the present terms of the Act of Parliament, it was an illegal in-
stitution—not in England indeed, because the Act applied to
Ireland only ; but in Ireland, he repeated, it was illegal. He
would first observe, too, that he had the history of the rise and
progress of Orangeism, from its first date—from its commence-
ment in Armagh down to the present day. The Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) had stated that political unions
were illegal, and yet that their petitions had always been gra-
ciously received by the Crown. But this was a mis-statement
of fact, and he would refer to the instance which had occurred
in respect to the Birmingham Union. Then a sort of procla-
mation appeared in the newspapers, calling for and suggesting
a species of organisation of the Union. This document was met
by a proclamation from the Government, stating this to be an
illegal association. What was the consequence ? Why the
Birmingham men abstained at once, and never carried it into
effect, and the association, in its intended character, never did
exist. The proclamation prevented it, and with reference to
the political unions from whom Addresses were received, their
meetings were held in the open day, without any test being re-
quired ; and therefore they were legal assemblies. To be sure
the principle which had been laid down by the Right Hon.
Baronet might apply perhaps sometimes—namely, that
though an association might be legal, it might at the same
time be unconstitutional and dangerous in its nature, and
no justification was to be found in the mere fact of its
being legal • but if a species of society were maintained
which was illegal, unconstitutional, end unchristian (and he
defied the Right Hon. Gentleman to take any view of the
Orange Societies which would not establish their illegality)
what was there to justify the giving countenance to such
an institution. The Right Honourable Baronet had read
the House an excellent lecture upon Christian charity and
forbearance, and upon the duties of the different classes of
society from one to the other. But the Right Hon. Baronet
might as well offer the advice to the idle winds, and especially
when he addressed menihers of Orange Societies. He was
convinced, indeed, that thee Mteht Hon. Gentleman had al-
ways adopted the same language, and he rave him credit for
sincerity ; but when that Right Hen. Genteeman was in office
before, did he not arm the ()ranee yeomanry in the North ?
Did not that force consist of 28,600 men, 19,000 of whom
were the Orange party of the North ? as there a single
fuctionary in the North—was there a Magistrate—a prosecu-
tor, or a juror, but belonged to some Orange lodge? Had a
Roman Catholic, then, the slightest chance of success, by a
system similar to that (as we understood) which the present
Government had carried into effect.—(" Hear, hear," from
the Ministerial side.) He cared not what the Gallant Officer
had said ; it was idle for any man—for any poor man particu-
larly—to expect any—aye, the slightest chance of assistance,
whilst the prosecutor had the protection of the Orange fac-
tion of the country. He had said this was an illegal faction,
and he would not address himself to the Gallant Colonel, who
did not pretend to be a lawyer ; but then the Right Hon. Bat
ronet could not have received and consulted the statute, be-
cause he asked where was the use of abolishing an oath, for in
place of that, a declaration would be made, and thus the law
would be evaded ? But any test or declaration made or taken
in any society or lodge, constituted an illegal assembly. The
words of the Act were distinctly stated, and therefore it was
that he had asked for the test.--(The Hon. and Learned
eZentleman here read the words of the statute, which were
to tLe effect, that where parties were bound to any con-
federacy by any oath, such act was illegal; and that any and
every such eenciety,
assembly, brotherhood, committee, lodge,
ct': club, or confe
racy, the members whereof should take an
active part in, or ass ant to any test or declaration not required
by the law, is illegal.) After some further remarks on this
point, the Hon. and LeaTened Gentleman proceeded to say
that the Right Hon. Gentleman knew as well as he did, that
in the Orange Society the members tested each other by se-
cret tests by which they mighi know whether a man was an
Orangemon or not. He (Mr. O'Connell) could not get into
an Orange lodge—( A laugh)—nor could any man who was
not initiated, or could give the pass word, or mho was unac-
quainted with the mystery as they called it. No, he must be
tested before he could hope to get in. And this was done in
the face of the law, by which every member of an Orange
lodge was guilty of a crime, of a misdemeanour. These per-
sons, however, were not prosecuted because the Government
did not do their duty—because they desired to promote men in
that House who proclaimed themselves to be Orangemen. And
yet the Right Hon. Gentleman was astonished that the Go-
vernment had not had credit given them for discountenancing
these associations I Were not their champions chosen by the
Government itself? Perhaps he might be condemned for
adverting to the relationship which existed between an in-
dividual and a Noble Peer in the other House—but had
not Lord Roden, the head of an Orange party, been
offered office under the present Government ? Was he pot to
have been a member of the existing Ministry ? Was it by a
kindred feeling that the Honourable Member for Montgomery
had taken office ? But had they not the Right Honourable
Baronet, the Member for Kent, to place against him—a most
respectable man in society, and entitled to the full benefits of
his station; a gentleman who had the full power of asserting
his principles, but who, upon the last occasion of the amount of

the vote for Maynooth College, when it was opposed by the
Hon. Member for Caithness, on the ground that he would not
be instrumental in supporting idolatry—that same Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Paymaster of the Forces now, voted in the
minority of twelve against the grant. Thus, then, he set off
the Right Hon. Member for Kent against the Right Honour-
able Member for Montgomery, leaving the matter perhaps
upon a fair balance. Then he came to Ireland I—There they
had made Privy Councillors of the Members for the Culver-
shy. Both of these Gentlemen were most respectable in pri-
vate life, and both in the same profession ; but the senior of
the two was one of the most determined of the opponents of
the Roman Catholic Reform Bill. In the year 1829, that
Learned Gentleman went as close to rebellion as possible ; he
had taken the trouble of going that length, and, in the eyes of
the law, not more violent language could have been used ; and
upon what ground ? Because the Government of the day had pre-
sumed to give civil rights to their Roman Catholic brethren ! And
this Gentleman had been selected and chosen to be one of the
Privy Cmucillors. And then, who was the next ? Mr. Gre-
gory! Mr. Gregory was chosen for a Privy Councillor. He would
appeal to any Gentleman who had been connected with the
late Administration, whether it had not been a matter of com-
plaint among the Roman Catholics of Ireland and the liberal
Protestants, that they had not a chance of making any fair
representation whilst Mr. Gregory remained at the Castle in
Dublin ; and on this account, he presumed, he had been se-
lected and made a Privy Councillor. And the third gentle-
man chosen for this capacity was the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, the Recorder for Dublin, Whose respectability and
manly candour he was ready at all times to acknowledge, but
was there ever a more decided partizan ? In the last session
of Parliament, the House had condescended to listen to him
(Mr. O'Connell), and a hope was held out for better times for
Ireland. A Bill passed the House of Commons, and the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman well knew how it had been stopped
in the other House. The Bill which thus passed the House of
Commons, had for it object the taking away two-fifths of the
tithes in Ireland, and though the appropriation of tithes was
not effected by this, yet there then appeared a prospect of its
eventually being achieved. Such was the conviction of the
Roman Catholics and of the Repealers in Ireland at the time,
and they gave up all agitation. Not a single meeting was
held, not an attempt was made to call upon the public to take
a part in any question I But what had been the conduct of
those gentlemen, who had agitated the country from one end
of it to the other ? In what manner had the Corporation of
Dublin conducted themselves? Who was their daily orator—
their principal speaker at those occasional orgies, honoured as
they were by the presence of great folks in that country? But
they had sent over to England for a first-rate man, a first-rate
orator—they sent for my Lord Winchilsea.—( Hear.) The High
Sheriff had been guilty of gross misconduct. But he was not
a partisan, perhaps ! He had not the right to call exclusive
meetings of Roman Catholics one day and of Protestants
another. Yet he had called such meetings—meetings where
the Orangemen came armed, and where men answered to the
cheers which were given by discharging their fire-arms into
the air. And yet these scenes of agitation had taken place
and had been engendered by the very men who had so
often deprecated it. Who were the agitators at the time ?
What had been the conduct of the Brunswick Lodge of
Orangemen—who talked of agitation whenever it went to ad-
vocate the cause of civil or religious liberty, and who, there-
fore, abominated it ? Who was the talented representative
of this body ? Why, the Recorder of the city of Dublin.
He (Mr. O'Connell) admired his sincerity and his candour,
but he could not doubt, nor could any man, that upon that
Hon. and Learned Gentleman's mind there must be an im-
pression that the Roman Catholics, if they did not look for
the blood of every Protestant, desired the blood of Protes-
tantism—and, withal, the Roman Catholics were told to re-
main masters of their feelinge, and they were told that there
was a wish to allay all ill feeling. Oh ! but whom had they
selected to do this ? Why, men of, the very political party
who had been dominant in Ireland for 600 years ! Yes, the Go-
vernment thought that they had found out a mode of coercing
Ireland. Nay, he had been told by a party, upon whose word
he thought he might almost pledge himself (as we understood)
that the present Lord Lieutenant bad declared that Ireland
could be governed only by Orangeism.—( Hear, hear, from the
both sides of the House.) But what cared he whether the
Lord-Lieutenant had said so or not ! Did they not know that
there was a shout of exultation theoughout Ireland, when a
Grand Master of an Orange Lodge was made a Member of
the Government, and when the Gallant Officer, who had made
a display of his Orangeism in that House, who might be equal,
but certainly not superior to those Gentlemen who sat behind
him) was appointed to office? When that party found such
to be the case, did they not raise the " No Popery" flag in the
presence of the Lord-Lieutenant at the theatre ? If any man
should raise the flag of " No Protestantism" in the presence
of the most paltry meeting, would not that House at once de-
clare that the Magistrate should be deprived of the Commis-
sion of the Peace who could sanction such an act ? There
was a Lord Mayor of Dublin, the proclaimed head of the
Orange faction. Entertainments of that Corporation were
given and attended by these parties. But what was this Cor-
poration ? It resembled in name, as far as its character or
designation went, the Corporation of London. But mark I
at this very hour, in the City of London, a Roman Catholic
was Sheriff I Such, then, was the spirit of Protestants in this
country, that Roman Catholics participated in all these offices.
So long back as the year 1792, the law had interfered with
respect to the Corporation of Dublin, and it enabled the
Roman Catholics to obtain the freedom of the City.
( Hear, hear.) This late Statute enabled them to obtain
office ; but since the year 1792, not a single Roman Catholic
had been admitted. Forty-three years had gone by, and
this same Corporation had not admitted a Roman Catholic I
Their legal adviser was a Privy Councillor ! And yet Hon.
Gentlemen opposite talked to him of discountenancing Orange
factions and parties, when at the same time the Government
emboldened and gave every countenance to this most unfortu-
nate, cruel faction ! Was it nothing that there should be a
system of exclusion ? Did they think that these were mere
tea-drinking assemblies ? There was no spirit of brotherhood
in them Oh Ihe would ask, what became of the administra-
tion of justice when the Roman Catholic had an Orangeman
for a Sheriff, an Orange Jury, and an Orangeman his prose-
cutor ? Let the present faction continue in power—let the
majorities or the minorities in that House give the people of
Ireland three months longer of such a system—let that preju-
dice their minds—let that feeling spread through Ireland, and
then let them see what a cup of grief they would administer
to Ireland. He knew that when he adverted to the present
Administration he should be answered by the character of the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, because he had voted for the Ro-
man Catholic Disabilities Removal Bill. How many men
were there who voted for the Roman Catholic afterwards, and
who were before encouraged to do so? Who had not voted
for them at some time or other, except the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department?
He was the only consistent man, and they had made him Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department; and he had told
the House that he had always discouraged Orangeism in Ire-
land ! What ! could it be really imagined that that Right
Hon. Gentleman, in anything he had done, could make him-
self believe this fact ? So with the Right Hon. Gentleman,
who also talked of discouraging Orangeism—he, too, who was
called its pride and champion—that he should have discou-
raged the Orangemen before—and that he should now do so,
was an astounding anomaly. The Right Hon. Gentleman
must have seen the Hon. and Learned Recorder for Dublin
more than once since he went to Dublin Castle, arid he must
have had oppartunities of knowing what were their views of
Government in Ireland I But that country was delivered up
to the power of faction. For one four years out of 670 they
had had a species of cessation from disturbance. They were
not satisfied, because they felt that the Government had had
too many of their instruments in their own hands. He, for
one, had candidly denounced the selection of the Attorney-
General, though he had been told that he had exhibited great
liberality. He had reason to know that he did so at the time
of Lord Anglesey ; and he was now Attorney-General con-
sistently with the principles which he had entertained his
whole life—principles upon which he had opposed every ad-
vance made in the cause of civil or religious liberty. Now lie
did not see the Hon. Member for Donegal in his place.—
( Hear, hear, from Colonel Conolly on the Ministerial side.)
The Gallant Member had said that ho was not an Orangeman,
but he approved of their principles. Now he would ask the
people of England whether that party had ever supported any
one liberal principle? How had they behaved to the Protes-
tant Dissenters, claiming their just rights ? They had op-
posed in every stage any advance made to the Protestant
Dissenters. What was their authority with the Protestant
Dissenters, then ? What had they done with reference to
the Reform Bill? Had they not opposed that memaire in
all its stages in the most unequivocal manner ? Had they
not advocated the mutilation of the Scriptures ? Had they
not done this under the feeling that they would thus
conciliate the anti-reforming party? And would they sup-
port this faction after all ? Yes, they would. He had
been told that a Noble Lord had said that they got a com-
mission by delivering Ireland ever to their own power.
Now Hon. Gentlemen of course were at liberty to say what
the) pleased of him (Mr. O'Connell), but if his objects were
continued agitation in Ireland, and keeping the country in
alarm, they (the Ministerial side) were just pursuing the very
course which would lead to such consequences, and to make
him answer "Go on encouraging the Orange faction." But
let them go on in their course,—let the Government take more
Orangemen into their Councils, though no man ought to jus-
tify the Orange system. No man could be an Orangeman
unless by the test by which Orangemen were known to each
other ;--and no man could deny that such societies were ad-
mitted to be illegal. But let them go on encouraging them,
and then make agitation necessary and inevitable—ay, inevit-
able in all its branches !—( Hear, hear.) The agitation of
crime—the agitation of the misguided Whiteboys, the great
strength of the domination of that country, because they were
abhorred by every thinking man, and must be equally so by
those who would, by a Constitutional course of proceeding,
obtain redress for their grievances, and prevent those mur-
ders and massacres which occurred continually, yet scarcely)
a Protestant was ever assassinated ; perhaps, two cases out of
two hundred ; but these wretched men massacred their Ro-
man Catholic landlords, and the Roman Catholic Fseaents
or tenants who came into their places. One of the most
atrocious cases of attack was that of Thadeus Ryan, of
Limerick, a Roman Catholic, who was assaulted on the
high road by taye miscreants who fired off blunderbusses—
woundedao his horse, and his servant else. This gentleman was
a ..na- of that relationship, had taken an
Magistrate, a near refatiori of his (Mr.
o,Ronan
coiiineips),
nci, Catholic
laeetive part in Roman Catholic affairs.
u-n. and Learned
Gentleman, after some further remarks, proceeded to warn the
Right lion. Baronet against giving an efficiency to the Orange
party ; he warned him against the consequences of such a line
of policy ; and he warned the Right lion. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department against the
consequences of giving them the addresses of the Orange
lodges arid the answers to them. He would say that if the
Right lion. Gentleman had sent answers to those petitions or