The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-08 00:00:00

A majority,.
contend, is not justified on a znero preliminary
Point to declare that it will submit to no, compromise—that it
Proclaim to the people of England. and Ireland that no
tfin or satisfactory arrangement shall be effected, except it be
hus on a basis against which three hundred Members of
sil,,.snouse have entered their protest-4 Cheers.) The House
..71Q pause before it takes a step so impolitic, and at the
same time t,ime so important ; and the reason I object to it is, be-
re think it would not only be unjust, but would establish a
lrer°lls example for future majorities—one by which the
he° atef Commons would be irrevocably bound. Ido not
still
to say that I consider the principle involved in it to be
'ss_..more dangerous than the precedent it would originate, and
neither the speeches nor the explanations which I have heard
the course of the debate have in the smallest degree tended
Luitainish the apprehensions I, from the commencement, en-
Crta_nined on the subject.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had
asked how he meant to ascertain whether a surplus
r'.llsted or not, and to give the House some explanation with
i;esPect to his plans, and in the whole course of his observations
(Chad not ventured to answer either of these questions.—
ha, era.) Sir, not only are we left without plans, but we
alltie'ne not even explanations which can give us the least intima-
,,°f the course which the Noble Lord means to pursue; for
goutTe Noble Lord tells us is that if he shall find in the
that ease to appropriate the surplus to the wants and defi-
terr_ales of the livings in the northern counties ; but neither in
nor de furs will it answer my purpose to transfer that
TPins to either Down or Derry.—( Cheers. ) Now let me
es,r,tliVollow out this principle of the Noble Lord: He would
pads h separate and peculiar localities, and constitute each
peos° as a distinct territory or division, and then inform the
lie that in both the tithe and the surplus they would have
lat!nterest.
Wow, what wou be the r of interest
Willi which the ld
Noble Lord proposednat invuese ting the people ?
....ere it would be the single and limited object of education.
blish heel's.) If the Noble Lord's principle were ever este-
.ed it clearly could be applied to no other object but that
ter'eta•a!ication. Now suppose that in a particular parish or a
this. al number of parishes education was to be gratuitous, or
-.pet
Ltoorsdo, small. .a payment as to render a provision for it on
iiie,_Part of the State unnecessary, what would become of the
of? s principle, and how was the surplus to be disposed
lets "s id he think that its transfer to Derry or to Down would be
ties? sad
than building churches in the northern coun-
Ew --(Cheers.) I really should like the Noble Lord to an-
Imre this ergument.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord's principle I
le e_rstand to be this, that it would not satisfy large parishes
pos_ue south of Ireland to appropriate their surpluses to pur-
eeer unconnected with ecclesiastical purposes, but if those
whohwi‘ce,ntsliaseigticaolarpuinrpgopses be already provided for in any other way
to _ °ea he satisfy the public? Why, by giving the surplus
parish rather than to a more distant one,
,a he thinks would get rid of that peculiar hostility which
thrt otherwise be evinced. I know, from actual knowledge,
ikatplds that sometimes exist between neighbouring parishes,
sieVan, therefore, assert that such an application of a surplus
eoin;eirgive no satisfaction whatever to any party, but on the
the Y Only tend to disturb and unsettle the parish to which
L, :nsfer should be made.—( Cheers) But does the Noble
ean forget the Bill on this subject to which he was a party ?
for ere a he not recollect the Bill brought. in while he held office
kreLgUlating the Temporalities of the Church ? That !nee-
)4,l4,4:Passed only two years, and its preamble is at variance
tow .° whole of the arguments on which the present resoi
j u-
spees founded. That Bill is the last legislative decision re-
dsng the Established Church of Ireland, and it lays down
e‘p Principle the distribution of the superfluities of large lie-
; aro9rig the small, and the subject of tithes is detailed in it.
lats,„Principle of that Bill, to which the Noble Lord was a
Ise,Wras directed towards the abolition of all sinecures. That
itamd,,,e,Principle on which the Church Temporalities Bill was
Alps wnls and it expressly limited the appropriation of any sur-
closies"4,leh might be found to purposes strictly and entirely ec-
to th tical, namely, to the building and repairing of Churches,
Poses e augmentation of small livings, and to all other pur-
l') en conducive to the advancement of religion, and calculated
the „B,°,re the stability, the extension, the permanence, and
(Ch-o"utY of the united Church of England and Ireland.—
el_Pree;rl2') By this Bill, then, the ecclesiastical funds were
°the "s'Y limited to ecclesiastical purposes, and to none
1414--(Bear, hear.) What confidence, I will ask the
oomdeLord and the Hon. Gentlemen who support him, what
admit flee can the country repose in the resolution of to-night,
posecing that it were passed, when it is known to be pro-
tot in total and utter disregard of the provisions of a Bill
tessed by a Tory Government, not passed by the friends
Lome, phurch, but carried through Parliament by the Noble
the himself and those of his party ?—( Loud cheers.) Why,
till, Oble Lord not only has forgotten the preamble of that
hear, but he has also forgotten its enactments.—( Hear,
the,) The Noble Lord has spoken of enormous livings in
dal Of of Ireland, and has evinced great horror of the scan-
Nob' the Church which they were likely to occasion. The
Noble Lord in speaking thus does himself injustice. The
tkkete Lord is a more sincere Reformer than he is willing to
good credit for, and appears to be modestly oblivious of the
111 e aztv,ll,ieh he has effected.—( Cheers and laughter.)
.Has
°ill i,°"le Lord forgotten that in the Church Temporalities
elis,,ge most effectual remedies were provided against the
get ;Isrlee of excessive livings ?—( Hear, hear.) Does he for-
aso '"at in cases of all large livings exceeding 8001. per
prtl care was taken by the provisions of that Bill to vest
tow
lands and parishes from such incumbencies, and attach
thto neighbouring livings which might need the increase ?
pow e Noble Lord not aware that the Commissioners had a
°f carry to carry this provision to any extent with the single limit
aimnt tiecreasing the orieinal living below the sum of 300/. per
aie,s-ra ? If the -Noble Lord does not feel that he can effect the
itte,-;11te he had in view ; that he cannot remedy those overgrown
throilles on his own principle, by means of his own Bill, and
he 11,gh the agency of his own Commissioner, what hope has
let 15' effecting- it by means of an abstract resolution ? What,
410113 e„ ask, will be the position of the Noble Lord, if this
1,""on be carried after a seven nights' debate ? What
rish,-Lhis position, and what will be the effect in each pa-
they When, from the speeches of those who spoke in its favour,
."--(ll:tterePt to ascertain the meaning of the resolution ?
ri% Ile meaning is not to be collected from the Ye-
he edisePinions of its various supporters. The Noble Lord, if
Will a„"e,re to the principle of the Church Temporalities Bill,
eechL:PLY the surplus—when such such surplus is found—to
toav-siisstical purposes ; whilst others by whom it is supported
Ptiitein°° k upon it as of any value because it acknowledges the
csesr'e of appropriating Church property to secular pur-
Hear, hear.) The Noble Gentleman the Member
me t `"?Yshire, has alluded to Henry the Eighth, as deeming
set 4filliar with the history of that period ; and he has also
Wherroo,ed rile to Macheath, in The Beggars' Opera, with
I presume, he supposes me also familiar. The Hon.
tienentletwa_
r, u has only referred to these two—Macheath and
the Eighth ; and there is no doubt that they were both
too. conversant with the theory and practice of appropria-
ftec.-'o.Laughter.) There is, however, a difference between
hi heath and. the Noble Lord, in which Macheath showed
the L the wiser of the two, f a stfacheath never attempted.
the aP,Propriation of a surplus un fillathad discovered it, whilst
la Noble Lord has yet to find his surplus out.—(Loud
hi'Tis true that Macheath did not hesitate to apply
pose Plus when he possessed himself of it to secular pur-
es'set--, (cheers and laughter)—but he never assumed the
assil,;-ac onf a surplus until he had good ground for the
Noba,t—(Renewed laughter.) The resolution of the
,;,ieord, though of a seemingly general character, is, after
tetiZtto apply fo the several parishes ; for when the speech
i'eble Cord is read by those whom the resolution will
lik", it will be found to be not national but parochial—(hear,
Aland so far from being calculated to promote peace in
the d,it will be attended with contrary results. It will have
uoex,effect of inducing Protestant landlords to endeavour to
ad their influence on the one hand by only encouraging
nelUs of tenantry; and as the existence of a living will
atalloe— upon numbers, there will be a constant struggle
the-a a
gst the parishioners of the various parishes in counting
Isientiber of souls and ascertaining the exact amount. It
lio,„saerease the acrimony of sectarian differences, and set the
iot,'",an Catholic clergy to work on the one side in endeavour-
Ise°,o snake the number of Protestants seem less, whilst it will
ta'itit"e interest of the Protestants expectant on the other to
kttoe,Lther° appear greater. Thus there will be endless squabbles
sari the exact amount of the number entitling the parish to the
ta;"eflise of a clergyman, and which number the Noble Lord
tee orgotten to settle. By carryiog the resolution into
.„en you make it the interest ef the Protestant landlord to
;avour as much as possible to procure a Protestant te-
lahrYL and thereby to retain upon Ins own property that sur-
‘,7, Which, because of the want of a congregation, would be
srPropriated to some other parish. There is another point of
tt;e,W which the question must be looked at. It has been
krial that the Church property belongs to the parish. Now,.
o`Zisase a surplus in any particular parish, and that the parish
not require its being appropriated to education—if every
aeirje of education were already answered—if there was a
thc,:in maintained by the Frotestant clergymen sufficient for
' of that persuasion—ifthere were also a school established
ill the Board of Education, with which the Roman Catholics
e-`t satisfied and that it was proposed to appropriate the sur-
tS to the purposes of education, would not the parishioners
p.hlrarranted in saying, " What interest is it to us 2. We havef
4.; °els already—schools calculated to afford our children su -
`4,1e71t education. But with regard to this surplus, you have.
inittc'd it to be ours, you have established our interest in it
'We it, and will not be satisfied to have it devoted to
;my.. an.
shZurpose but such an conduces to our service. "—( Hear.) I
now advert to the speech of the Hon. and Learned
heMber for Cashel, who, however, does not agree with the
re.°a• Member for Derbyshire, who, from the mode of argu-
-ciat which he adopted, might be assumed to be opposed tdo
I national establishments ; for the Hon. Gentleman seemed
t that the Legislature should be indifferent as to this or
104 religion, and that truth would thus be better enabled to
Ikaik its way. This might or might not be a good principle,
't i a principle opposed to all establishments. The Hon.
Isarl Les
the eared Member for Cashel admits that it is the duty of
of Legislature to provide for the due and decent performance
tiotulat religious worship which it admits to be true. The
ris,ts', and Learned Gentleman has adduced the ease of a pa-
ji„;" in Monaghan where there are but four Protestant farni-
Lso-esi a.nd he said that he was. of opinion provision should be
ora tor the public worship of those families. The Noble
aZ i),,rd.PPeared to be in doubt where there were ten families in
' rat'sn, for though he said he did not know whether, in that
Insta
nee, he would make provision for them, he had stated he
IsOuld not deprive them, if already provided for. Now the
KV. and Learned Member for Cashel says that he would
cake provision for the four families in Monaghan, not by
'?;iving• them a rector at 700/. per annum,. and a curate at
but by ,llowing them a good and efficient clergyman at
661.Leari~ v Wliy, Sir, in this estimate the Hon. and
deGeo. ttsgresa and I are nearly alike. The sum of
184`:. is a wise and a liberal allowance for a parish con.
.ing not snore thin four Protestant families , and yet
la not but to be the gym.
graded for 'glen four only,