The Sun.
London, England, 1866-01-24 00:00:00

The Right Hon. Milner. Gibson, M.P.

ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE, Tuesday Evening.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the
Board of Trade, addressed a numerous meeting of
his constituents this evening, in the Town-hall.
Mr. SMETHURST, the Mayor, who presided, in
introducing the right hon. gentleman, expressed a
hope that he would give them some very clear idea
of a Reform Bill. (Loud cheers.) He had heard it
said that since the right hon. gentleman had got
into a snug berth he had been a little bit of a trimmer
and had done very little for his constituents. He
did not agree with that opinion, for the right hon.
gentleman had done a great deal for them, and he
certainly could not fear a Reform Bill, for an ex-
tension of the constituency would only increase his
majority in the borough. He believed that the in-
fluence of the right hon. gentleman in the Cabinet,
although quiet, had been very great, especially with
respect to Mr. Gladstone, who had not come for-
ward and made himself known for those popular
opinions which he now professed until Mr. Gibson
joined the Cabinet. Mr. Gibson had, in fact, been
a sort of schoolmaster to the Cabinet, and he would
now be able to go back to his colleagues and tell
them that Reform was no sham but an earnest
reality. (Cheers.)
Mr. MILNER GIBSON, who was received with
great cheering, said—You have stated, Mr. Chair-
naan, that I have been very quiet of late ; but I
think a business population like that of Ashton
must be aware that when a gentleman is connected
with a department of the Government, it is gene-
rally better that he should confine himself to the
business with which he is entrusted than travel out
of his road to do the business of other people. That
has been my case since I have been connected with
the Board of Trade. It is a department which
has important business of its own, more than I
have ability and physical power to look
after well; and I should be neglecting my duty
if I were to devote any time generally to the
business of other branches of the Government.
That may, perhaps, in some measure account
for what you have been pleased to call my " quiet-
ness." We have now a new Parliament. Some 180
members have, I believe, replaced members of the
former Parliament. It is therefore difficult to say
what is the precise condition of the present House
of Commons ; but I think it is generally admitted
that there is a Liberal majority among the new mem-
bers—there are many who are already distinguished
by their writings and intellect, and there are others
who will no doubt be anxious to distinguish them-
selves. Our debates will be conducted with as great
ability as the debates of any former Parliament ;and
I certainly see no signs of that Conservative reaction
which was confidently predicted before the late gene-
ral election, which has just taken place. None has
given more general satisfaction than the return, of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer for South Lanca-
shire. I do not think that his return is due, as has
been said, to Conservative forbearance ; but, on the
contrary, I believe him to have been returned by the
fair strength of the Liberal party in the county.
(Cheers.) I therefore think that he represents the
Liberal policy which prevails in South Lancashire,
and that he has not been returned by what is some-
times
called Conservative forbearance. I do not
claim for the present Administration any support
from the present Parliament beyond the support of
the principle which guided it. The gentlemen who
form that Administration may be very good—as
good as may be found to occupy their places; but
what I believe to be the truth of the case is, that
the country at the last general election signified
emphatically that whoever are the men who are to
carry on the administration of the public affairs of
the country, their policy must be guided by the prin-
ciples acted upon since the Reform Bill of 1832.
Gradual progress to political, to religious, and I may
say the entire accomplishment of commercial free-
dom. These are the principles which I believe the
country has indicated as the foundation of the po-
licy which any Administration must act on to enjoy
the confidence of the House of Coilumons. I may be
permitted to say a few words on commercial questions,
which come under my especial cognisance at th Board
of Trade, and must be questions particularly in-
teresting to a constituency like Ashton. It is not
necessary to touch on the French treaty, for which
we are indebted to the late lamented Mr. Cobden.
The direct benefits of that treaty have been fully
understood and appreciated, but I would wish to
refer to the indirect benefits arising from that treaty.
I do not mean the merely moral advantages of having
cemented more closely our relations with France,
but the commercial benefits derived from it. If we
take the trade of England with the whole of the
Continent, we find a most remarkable increase since
the ratification of the French treaty. The direct
trade with France has not only been largely aug-
mented, but the exports to the whole of Europe
have increased from something like 60 millions of
value in 1860 to upwards of 100 millions in 1865.
Tis great increase of trade has arisen from this—
that the French treaty was the first step to break
in upon the prohibitory system of Europe. France
not having granted to other countries those reduc-
tions of duties which she granted to England, has
made use of the power of granting those reductions
to secure from other countries a material reduction
in their tariffs; England has then stepped in, and
claimed from those ceZntries, under the favoured
nation clause, equal reductions with those which
have been accorded to France ; so that France, as
it were, has necessarily and inevitably become the
pioneer of the extension of English free trade. The
result, no doubt, has been very advantageous ; but
it has struck many, and I think with great truth,
that if England is only to obtain an equal partici-
pation in those reductions which France may be able
to secure, the reduction in tariffs will not be made
so entirely in English interests, or so moulded by
English influences, and will not be so much to the
advantage of English trade as if England herself
were permitted to co-operate in the revision of
Continental tariffs. The Austrian treaty, which
has lately been concluded, is the first step in the di-
rection to which I have just referred. England has
not there waited merely to obtain an equal share in
those reductions which France may be able to
secure. She has been permitted by the Austrian Go-
vernment to advise in the revision of the Austrian
tariff, and to make such counsels as will enable
Austria to revise her tariff, not exclusively in the
interests of other countries, but also in the interest
of England. This I consider to be a most important
principle. Austria has consented to a treaty that
for the future no duty shall exceed 25 per cent.—a
very high duty, no doubt ; but recollect that that is
the limit to possible protection—she has done more ;
she has agreed that in the spring of the present year
British commissioners shall be called in in order to
advise with the Austrian commissioners as to the
settlement of actual duties within the limit of 25 per
cent. ; and I have every reason to hope that in the
settlement of these duties a groat step will be taken
by the lowness of their scale toward the adoption of
free trade in Austria. And if the immenseresources
of that country, with 36,000,000 of population, can
be developed, as I firmly believe they will be, by the
adoption of a more free commercial policy, the
benefit, though great to Austria,will extend through-
out the whole European commonwealth. The pre-
dictions which were made at the time Mr. Cobden
was successful in obtaining the French treaty will, I
think, be fulfilled, and we shall in time see the whole
of Europe to a great extent imbued by that spirit of
free trade which has influenced the commercial policy
of England. In the negotations which have taken
place with Austria great services have been rendered
by Lord Bloomfield, our ambassador at Vienna ;
Mr. Malet, of the Board of Trade ; Mr. Morier, by
the International Commission of Inquiry held at
Vienna, which was conducted by Sir William Hutt
and by Mr. Somerset Beaumont. I may be per-
mitted on this commercial question to remark on
the revival of trade with the United States. I be-
lieve the exports to the United States have now
recovered to what they were in 1860. They were
£21,000,000 of value in 1860, and I believe they
were about £21,000,000 in round numbers in 1865.
There has been some alarm raised about over-
trading, but I think that we need not disturb
our minds on that score, for the addition to our
exports to the United States during last year was
only about £4,000,000, and I do not think that an ,

increase of that amount ought to cause any alarm
with respect to what is called over-trading. It is
gratifying to find that this great trade is reviving.
When we look back we have reason to congratulate
the people of this country—those of Ashton certainly
—on the course taken during the continuance of
that dreadful civil war. The instincts of the great
body of the people, and in Ashton especially of the
working classes, kept them right on this American
question ; they knew that the issue was between
slavery and freedom—(cheers)—and although it
might be that many of the masters in many parts of
South Lancashire sympathised with the Southern
cause, yet I will undertake to say that I am not
exaggerating when I assert that the great body of
the industrious classes sympathised with the United
States Government, desired the restoration of the
Union, were anxiously endeavouring to avoid every
cause of alienation with the people of the North,
and never had any sympathy with the attempt made
in the Southern insurrection to create a new Power
on the foundation of slavery. (Cheers.) The result
had proved they were right in the view which they
entertained as to the result of that great conflict.
But how remarkable it was that there should have
been this sympathy with the cause of the North on
the part of a great body of the working classes, inas-
much as it appeared that their interests were the
other way, because it was constantly stated that the
Southern insurrection disturbed the supply of cot-
ton, and that it was only on its success that the cul-
tivation of cotton could be resumed, and our manu-
facturing districts supplied again with a sufficient
quantity of that great raw material. Notwithstand-
ing this appeal to their interests, notwithstanding
the assertions that cotton would be king, the natural
convictions of the great body of the working people
of England went necessarily on the side of freedom
and against slavery, and would not permit any sel-
fishness to trample on the great moral considera-
tions which kept them right on this important
question. (Cheers.) Our worthy chairman has
reminded me, in his opening address, that I am
expected to say something about Reform, and to
give a clear idea of what a Reform Bill ought
to be. That is not quite so easy. I know what
my own individual opinions are, and I state them
freely ; but not so as an official—(laughter and
cheers)—as one who is acting, and who knows per-
fectly well that in order to carry anything success-
fully through in this world you must cordially co-
operate with others. Many say," Why touch reform
at all ? There was a bill brought in in 1852 ; there
was another in 1854 ; there was the bill of Lord
Derby in 1859, and there was the bill of Lord Pal-
merston's Government in 1860. Four Prime Minis-
ters—all able statesmen—Earl Russell, Lord Aber-
deen, Lord Derby, and Lord Palmerston—have all
tried their hands, and all failed ; and do you not
think you had better give it up too ?" My answer
to this is, that there is no instance of a great public
question having been proposed by the Crown and re-
peatedly submitted to the consideration of Parlia-
ment that had not been ultimately disposed of ; and
the very fact of its having been frequently submit-
ted to Parliament, instead of being a reason for not
making a proposal at the present time, is a very good
cause for now submitting such a proposal. So
strongly was this felt by Lord Derby's Administra-
tion in 1859 that both Mr. Walpole and Mr. Hen-
ley, both gentlemen of high Conservative princi-
ples, said that it was indispensably necessary for
Lord Derby to undertake to deal with the question
of Reform ; indeed, Mr. Henley stated in my hear-
ing in the House of Commons that the only condi-
tion that he made with Lord Derby, on joining his
Government, was that he should deal with this ques-
tion. Mr. Walpole also expressed his opinion that
any person who undertook the guidance of public
affairs must deal with this question of reform. Will
anybody in the country at this time stand up and
say there ought to be no reform ? Some people say
that that is what we want ; that if some very great
authority will get up and say there shall be no re-
form, the Reformers will set to work and carry re-
form with a vigour that does not seem to be appa-
rent at the present. But there is nobody to say
there shall be no reform ; and if there is to be re-
form at all, why not now, in the present year 1866?
Thirty-four years have elapsed since the passing
of the Reform Bill. Great changes have taken
place during these 34 years. The working classes
of the country are greatly improved, and there has
been a great spread of education, a great diffusion of
knowledge ; and there could not have been a more
remarkable testimony to the moral condition of the
working classes than the patient manner in which
they bore the great sufferings which were endured
during the time of the cotton famine. What is the
condition of the suffrage at the present moment ?
The bill of 1832 very largely extended the suffrage
of what may be called the middle classes of this
country ; but since then I am prepared to contend
that that suffrage has been stationary. That may be
regarded as an extraordinary statement, seeing that
there are in absolute numbers considerably more
voters in boroughs and counties now than there were
in 1832. But if you take the increase of the adult
males, you will find the proportion of electors to adult
males in 1832 was one in five, and it is oue in five
now. Then I say, that if there has been such great
progress in education and wealth among the working
classes, the proportion of voters among the male
adults ought to be larger now than in 1832, seeing
that 34 years of constant improvement and advance
have elapsed. Is it not, therefore, a correct view of
the question to say that there is something in our
present electoral arrangements which prevents the
enfranchisement of the working classes ? As things
go on, however much they may progress in educa-
tion, morals, or wealth, it does not appear probable,
judging from the experience of the last 34 years, that
we shall get any increased proportion of the working
classes borne upon our electoral registers. I have
taken the trouble, in order to be accurate, to put
down one or two figures in reference to this ques-
tion. Excluding Ireland—in which there has been' a
decrease of the population and an exceptional state
of things—and Scotland, which would not materi-
ally alter the general result, the percentage of total
electors to total males in England and Wales in
1832 did not exceed 19.3, and in 1865 it was 19.1.
In 1832 it was one in five ; in 1865 it was still one
in five. There has been a remarkable increase in
education and in property among the working
classes. In 1831, in England and Wales, the
population between 5 and 15 years of ago
was 3,532,000 ; in 1865 it was 5,582,000. In 1831
there were only 1,276,947 of such young persons
receiving instruction, whereas in 1865 there were
three millions. In 1831 the depositors in savings
banks amounted to one out of every 35 persons; in
1864-5 they amounted to one out of every 15, show-
ing a remarkable increase in habits of frugality and
saving, and in education and in the spread of know-
ledge. I may be asked how we mean to extend the
suffrage to the working classes. What I say is this :
—That the Government, whatever may be the details
of the bill, will propose a measure which will admit
to electoral privileges a fair number of the upper
portion of the working classes of the country.
(Cheers.) That, I believe, will be the substantial
effect of the measure. I cannot tell you—to use the
words of Jeremy Bentham—what the vote-making
habitation is to be, but I suppose some sort of vote-
making houses. What I should like to see is a
household suffrage, but that is not the plan likely
to be submitted. I shall be prepared to give my
support to any measure which does not compromise
principles, and which is in itself a substantial boon
to the working classes of the country. (Cheers.)
The difference between one and another for the
admission of new voters, provided that it makes a
sensible addition to the number of electors, is a dif-
ference in degree, and not a difference in principle ;
and I think that every true Reformer should be
guided, not by a pedantic adherence to some parti-
cular figure, but by the consideration whether
the bill on the whole does admit a sensible num-
ber of the electors which it proposes to enfranchise
to the electoral list. I think that every true
Reformer should be guided by the substantial
merits of a Reform Bill on the whole, and not base
his opinions on some particular point of detail.
When you see the bill you will be able to judge
whether the Government is acting honestly, and
whether it desires to make a step in the direction of
enfranchising the great body of the people. It will
speak for itself; but until then I must leave the
matter where it is, as I feel that I could not with

propriety enter into details. Whatever Earl Rus-
sell will propose, I have no doubt he will endeavour
to the utmost of his ability and all his energy to pass
into law. He will not propose a measure for the
success of which there is no chance ; but I have no
doubt—although there may be a fair chance for the
success of the measure which he will propose—that
it will not be carried without a very considerable
struggle. A great deal has been said about instal-
ments, and that any measure will be a lever by
which something else is to be carried. The spirit
in which the Government—l speak for them—will
propose a measure is, that it shall be a measure
which, at the present time, will confer a benefit on
the public ; and, with regard to the future, will
leave the future to take care of itself, and leave
other statesmen, if they think fit to deal with the
question, to decide what is best for their time. The
Government will endeavour to do what they believe
will be in itself advantageous and confer practical
benefits on the people of this country. There is
another question which has occupied a great deal of
attention—it is the question of Jamaica. When the
news arrived of the shameful proceedings which had
occurred in that island it was felt at once by the
Government that there was a prima facie case for
an inquiry ; and I may say that at the very time
when a large and important deputation was urging
on the Colonial Minister the propriety of holding an
inquiry, at that very time Sir H. Storks, the Chief
Commissioner, was on his way from Malta to con-
duct it. I can say, most unfeignedly, that nothing
could have given greater pain to the head of the
Government, and to all his colleagues, than the nar-
rative of those dreadful proceedings in Jamaica.
It is not for me either to condemn or to indem-
nify, it is not for me standing here to pass
any opinion whilst the inquiry is still going on ;
but I have no doubt, from what I know of
the character of the commissioners—who are men of
honour and of great knowledge—that the inquiry
will be a dispassionate and a fair one, and that the
British public will be put in possession of the whole
truth, and can then act for itself as it thinks best.
I may be wrong, but I am one of those who con-
scientiously believe that it is possible for a black
and white community to live together on good
terms, provided you enact just and equal laws. I
believe that all men, without reference to colour,
are all conscious whether the laws under which they
live are enacted in a spirit of justice and equality ;
and I hope that the result of this inquiry will not
only make clear what has been the justification for
the great severity that has taken place, but also
show to the country what ought to be the policy
and the laws calculated to carry on a quiet and
happy government in that island. (Cheers.) The
negro population no doubt is powerful in numbers;
and if so, I can easily understand that the white in-
habitants might be seized with a sudden panic. But
the best preventative of a sudden panic of this kind
will be the general consciousness that the laws by
which they are governed are just and generous, and
that the people, whether black or white, are con-
tented with the system under which they live. I
thank you for the kindness and patience with which
you have heard me, and for the confidence which
you have invariably reposed in me. I have never
been invited to support a narrow and selfish policy,
but I have been invited to do my best to support a
broad, enlightened, and liberal administration of
affairs. In this district we have reaped great tri-
umphs. We have seen this district take a promi-
nent part in carrying free trade, the emancipation
of the press, and various measures of vast im-
portance to the welfare of the country. There are
other triumphs in store for us, and I hope that
Lancashire and the manufacturing districts, in
which are seated almost the whole political energies
of England and Wales, will take the lead in this
question of reform, and that if the Governmentbring
forward a measure worthy of your support, you will
give that support in no grudging spirit (Cheers.) I
believe that your support is, of all others, the most
likely to ensure success—that to Lancashire and the
manufacturing districts we are mainly indebted for
the progress which has been made in civil liberty,
religious equality, and commercial freedom; and
upon those three great principles, I believe that
England's greatness is founded.
The right hon. gentleman resumed his seat amid
great cheering.
In reply to questions from the body of the hall,

Mr. GIBSON said the Government had given power
to the local authorities to make almost any regula-
tions they might consider necessary for the preven-
tion of the spread of the cattle disease. lle had re-
ceived no information with regard to the Fenian
conspiracy. He had no objection to fancy fran-
chises, although he was not particularly fond of
them. The bill of Lord Derby proposed that a man
who paid Bs. a-week, or £2O a-year, in furnished or
unfurnished apartments, should have a vote. He
thought if they were to have a lodger franchise,
that that was too high. With regard to doing away
with the Irish Church Establishment, that was not
so easy a matter as many supposed. At the same
time, he had no objection to say that he considered
the Irish Church Establishment unsuited to the
population of Ireland. He thought it was a mon-
strous thing that they should have in Ireland an
establishment of one religion, while the great ma-
jority of the people were of another. (Cheers.)
The proceedings were then brought to a close by
a vote of thanks to the right hon. gentleman.