The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-22 00:00:00

THE SUN; LONDON, SATtiiibAV, AUGUST 22, 1:35.

be for ever diso-raced if they 110vc _ such ruffians to prevent
them from holding their Ns::
t•J34.t.TATit) ttil Of' P,.1 DILL
This having been sent doWii from the, Lords with
nicetai..
amendments, it was moved that the amendments be .
Mr. HUME, Mr. PEASE, ,and , Mr. :,.k ee7s'ecl it Ali
their opieion that ?d he Printed, in order that the
!louse might the better judge of them.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed with the Hon. Gentle-
men, that it would be the better course to print them, fican
They were then ordered I? hA printe!List!riking4:
TOPPll.‘'d THE SUPPLIES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the first of the Orders of the Day was the Consolidated Fund
Bill, which stood for committal. The Hon. Member for Lin-
coln ( Mr. E. 1,. Bulwer.) had Riven miller et a reotimi
this evertinot,. on the Orst C,rder o`f the Day being moved. He
Ulancellor of the Exchequer) now rose to postpone the
first order till Friday next—( Cheers)—therefore the Hon.
Gentleman would make his motion on the second a-der being
moved.
Mr. TOOlO3 said that the lli,g-lit lion. Gentleman having
taker, this course, at a time when petitions were coming in
from every part of the country, could not fail to give great
satisfaction.
Mr, HUME said that while the three great and most im-
portant questions were pending in another place, he thought
it would be highly improper in the House to pass any more
money clauses.—(Cheers.) He did not wish to ueny to itno,
ther place the tree exercise of its powers, but some discre-
tion WaS required on the part of both.—( Cheers.) He re-
peated that the Members of the House of Commons, acting
on behalf of the people of the country, were called on at the
present crisis not to agree to any more votes of money, nor for
the appropriation of that already granted.—(Great cheering.)
They might at last find themselves placed in a situation such
as their constituents had scarcely looked for. He hoped the
Right lion. Gentleman would postpone his motion, not till
Friday next only, but for any further period that might be ne-
cessary, to enable them, before they came to its consideration,
to see how the public business had got on elsewhere. —( Great
cheering.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that undoubtedly the control of
the public funds was a constitutional power belonging to the
Commons of England.—( Cheers.) if it was found that the
amelioration of the abuses existing in our institutions, and the
advancement of the necessary reforms, were to be impeded,
the Commons would exercise their constitutional control over
the public Exchequer, and would place it in the hands of those
who had the confidence of the people, so as to render any per-
severance in a systematic opposition to the improvements re-
quired by the people impossible.—( Cheers.) The people of
England would be slaves if they submitted to such dictation.—
( Continued cheers.) Would it be submitted to, that 200 or
300 individuals, in no way responsible for what they did,
should wield the power of obstructing this correction of abuses
and the redress of wrongs ?—( Great cheering.) That would
be a miserable period for this country; and he only alluded
to it for the purpose of expressing his opinion that the people
would be successful in this struggle.--( Cheers.)
Mr. GLADSTONE could not hear such a proposition as
that which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made, without
venturing to express his opinion that there could not be a more
unconstitutional, a more indecent, or at least indelicate pro-
ceeding, than that of postponing the appropriation clause, and
thus refusing the grant of the Supplies voted to his Majesty,
on account of the conduct of a body of individuals with whom
his Majesty had no connection.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose amidst
tremendous cheering, and said that he knew not what might
be the notions of decency or delicacy which the Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down might entertain for his own go-
vernment. but those which he himself entertained of both the
one and the other would command him to do justice to the
conduct of a political opponent, and not without good ground
bring against him a charge of proceeding upon unconstitu-
tional doctrines. He thought that he had sufficiently
guarded himself, except indeed to a mind that would willingly
misapprehend, against such interpretation of the course
which he proposed as that adopted by the Hon. Gen-
tleman. He had stated that the delay which that Hon.
Gentleman had ventured to characterise as indecent and
indelicate, had been produced not at all by his Right Hon.
Friends, or by that House, but, in point of fact, by the delay
which had been given to the Militia Bill by the House of
Lords itself.—( Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Gentleman had
been a little more conversant with the forms of 'Parliament,
or if he had paid a little attention to the statement made, lie
could not have resorted to the personal attack which he had
ventured to make - he must then have known that for the
Minister of the drown to propose the appropriation clause
without having had the Militia Estimates voted, would be
equivalent to leaving the militia unpaid for the next twelve
months, and thus to deprive his Majesty of the services of
that part of his forces for that period of time. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not impute any blame to
the House of Lords for the delay to which they had subjected
that measure, but still it was obvious that before it was passed
into a law it would be impracticable for the Government to
take that step—the postponement of which was now characte-
rized as an offence against the constitution.—(Hear, hear.)
He had been actually obliged to resort to that postponement.
The Hon. Gentleman might say—why extend it till Friday
—why not confine it to Monday ? For this reason : the
Committee up stairs for the estimate could not be moved
till that measure was passed into a law ; and then the Report
of that Committee must be made to the House ; the vote
of the estimate could not be made until a supply night,
and it could only be after the Report of the Committee of
Supply that the appropriation clause could be proceeded
with. Supposing, then, that the Militia Bill should at
once be passed, the earliest day for inserting that clause in
the• Consolidated Fund Bill would be that which he had
named. On what ground could the Hon. Gentleman ven-
ture to refer to his Majesty's Government as forgetful of
their duty to the Crown, or of that respect which he, for one,
should always entertain for a co-ordinate branch of the Legis-
lature? Observations might have been made, indeed, tending
to connect the delay with other causes; but what had he to do
with them ? Had he not sufficiently guarded himself, by dis-
tinctly declaring the impossibility of proceeding more rapidly
or taking any further step until the Militia Bill should be
passed? The Hon. Gentleman seemed to proceed upon the
supposition of a distinction between the interests of the people
and the interests of the Crown ; that was the true Tory doc-
trine, and it might well become the Hon. Gentleman to ad-
vance it. The Hon. Gentleman might consider that such a
distinction was to be made; for his part, be could only say,
that in his eves none could exist or be recognised.
Mr. GLADSTONE seemed to have misunderstood the
Right Hon. Gentleman as to the grounds of the delay in ques-
tion ; he wished to declare that nothing had been further from
his intention than to apply any observations in a personal sense
to the Right Hon. Gentleman. If he had made use of any
language bearing that character, it was not less his pleasure
than it was his duty, after the declaration of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, to withdraw it. At the same time he could not
forget the remarks which had fallen from the Hon. Member
for Middlesex, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dub-
lin, and other Members, and while he withdrew the application
of his own observations to the Right Hon. Chancellor of the
Exchequer, he begged to transfer it to those lion. Gentlemen,
on account of the interpretation which they had chosen to put
upon the delay, and to the doctrines which they had chosen
to promulgate in connection with it.
Mr. O'CONNELL accepted the transfer, and returned it
with extreme contempt. It was a doctrine slavish in the ex-
treme which had dictated such remarks as those of the lion.
Gentleman. Again he would say, that he accepted the trans-
fer, and returned it with contempt.
Mr. HUME, however, did not accept the transfer. He
fully admitted the right of both Houses to deal with mea-
sures which came before them as it seemed fit to them and
he trusted that that House would not hesitate to exercise
whatever powers belonged to it as the guardian of the pub-
lic purse. Doubtless the party to which the Hon. Gentle-
man opposite belonged were anxious again to have the pub-
lic money at their command; the House well knew what
they had done with it when they once before had it under
their control ; he indeed had been for some time desirous of
an opportunity to expose the many abuses which had been
practised by them during their last term of office, and he only
regretted that the session had been so short—(Laughtcr)—
as not to afford it to him. The fact was that the people
were now in danger of being deprived of the fruits of all
the labours of the session ; and could it be contended tha

_ .
millions ought to yield to some 300 individuals.—( Hear.)
Let the people of England but speak out, and then the other
House might take what course they pleased.—( Hear. )
Mr. WILK S would venture to state that the inhabitants
of the British Empire would be more satisfied with the con-
versation of that night than they would have been with a
long debate upon any other subject; they would be highly
satisfied with the constitutional tone and language of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers.
Mr. R. PLUNKET believed the Tory doctrines of those
who sat upon the same side of the House as himself were, that
each branch of the Legislature was independent, and free to
deliberate as should seem fit to it upon all questions coming
before it, unbiassed by the opinions of parties in any other
branch—and bowing to the majesty of the people only in so
far as every man must wish to bow to the real sentiments of
the British people.—( Hear, hear.) He certainly should al-
ways trust that those gentlemen on his side of the House who
had before held the helm of State—with honour, at least, to
themselves—or any of whose opinions he respected, would not
be actuated by the mean desire to have the public purse in
their possession for the purpose of obtaining those petty drib-
blings
which were supposed to operate as their inducement,
and in return for which they must of course in such case pay
the penalty of the sufferings of a wounded conscience.
Mr. C. B LLE R thought that if ever there was an occa-
sion on which the House was called upon to exercise with due
deliberation the power which their ancestors had placed in
their hands—of deciding whether they would place the public
money in the possession of improper persons, and to protect
the rights of the people from those by whom they were inso-
lently invaded—(llear, bear)—it was the present. He re-
peated that they were called upon to consider well, before
they granted money out of the public purse, whether they
would place it in the hands of those who would spurn the
prayers and wishes of the people.—( Hear.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite, with that tender Tory conscience of which he
seemed to boast, seemed to say that he despised the possession
of the public purse. The true representatives of the people
would not despise it, because they knew it to be the safeguard
of the people's liberties; and that House would be the traitors
of their liberties if they allowed it unadvisedly to leave their
hands.—( [lean )
Mr. E WART said, that judging from the petitions presented
;o the House, the people of England must also come in for a
share of the " transfer" spoken of. The House was now
called upon to use the means which had been placed at their
diEpcsal for the protection cf the poeple ; znd in exercising it,

they would show themselves the raal friends and steady Miro-
-of the Crown. It was their first duty
iwatie'ristlor:htliehpxreirflera'n'ithe
miler
0.
~..2;!h of the Legislature of
%'3/441at fetd.
lira people the .:(nnerit they
leiaged to do to, lief' abandoned Otelf duty in the, people al'd
i
M eat;,1164. j
r. TOOO Said, thai the eertiiersallort Whlelt
had now taken place' was the most satisfattofy liiiMer that
could be given to a petition which he had presented in the
early part of the evening—it spoke volumes in a language
titit td lie itlittinderstoed, and showed that that House, in the
j'tIII Hi' 110 eteuld riot be,,tow the
public fnls, over which it was the gtuirdia'n, itnEil those ob-
jects had been obtained which the interests of the cotirilfy
loudly called for. He, for one, should withhold his assent to
the appropriation of the supplies until the wishes of the people
Atibiok:'t Monielpal Reform had been satisfi d.
Dr. BOWR VAC, as a Utpreseriftltite of Scotland, wished
it to be understood that the people of that country, to far as he
was acquainted with their opinions, would not willingly see
the money of the ,:enple entrusted to hands in which they had
rid emilid:iidi3.--4 [leaf, bear: )
Mr. T. ATT WOOD thought it rite's/ iMportant that the
House of Lords should not be deceived as to the opinions and
joktiflinaiiting if the people of England, and should fully un-
derstand that they &AIM fidt trample upon that people. He
had but recently come from a macting in the country, which
had been attended by ten thousand individuals. Hid felt- sure
that it Iscellti not be safe for that House to oppose their feelings
and opinions. ft eVett liter! oh,erved at that meeting, that
under the present march of education and diffusion of know-
ledge, the time would soon approach when the country would
need neither a House of Lords nor a King, and the shout with
which that sentiment had been received by those ten thousand
men had almost brought the roof under which they were as-
sembled about his cars.
Mr. H. TWISS thought that the Hon. Gentleman formed
a wrong estimate of the people of this country, if he deemed
those to be their feelings ; the people were not disposed to lend
themselves to every revolution which a projector or interested
politician might suggest.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, it is certainly not my intention to
answer the Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, because I
consider his speech as little else than a second attempt to enter
on that debate which the Hon. Member near him (Mr. Plun-
kett) so indiscreetly and unwisely endeavoured to provoke.—
(Cheers.) The simple question, which my Right Hon. Friend
stated in terms as plain and distinct as those in which any pro-
position could be submitted, was, that the House, having only
just received the amendments made by the Lords, in the Bill
for the Militia, it was unnecessary to bring forward the Militia
Estimates ; and until these Estimates were agreed to, it would
be impossible that the appropriation of the supplies of the year
(the Act for voting which was placed on the notice-book for
this evening) could be determined. On that simple statement
the Hon. Member thought fit to raise up an accusation against
the Ministers of the Crown, and to charge them with conduct
which was indecent and indelicate—to charge them with not
doing their duty to their Sovereign, and putting off a Bill
which ought to be now immediately considered.—(Hear,
hear.) It is quite true that these expressions of their opi-
nions have been withdrawn ; but I am not surprised that
when accusations of this kind are made, and when they are
followed up by what I think was not withdrawn, a dictation
to this. House with regard to the question of Supplies—namely,
to tell this House that it was not for them to decide whe-
ther they ought to be voted, but that the Hon. Gentleman
opposite had a right to lay down the certain times and periods
at which the Supplies should be made complete—l say,
when speeches of this kind are made, comprehending in the
first place an accusation which was proved to be totally un-
founded against the Ministers of the Crown, and which a
single minute's attention would have prevented, and when they
contain, in the second place, what was very like a rebuke to
the House, by declaring when and how the House of Commons
should vote the supplies—l repeat, when language of such a
description is used, I am not astonished that it should excite
not a little of angry discussion.—( Cheers.) For my own
part I can only say if there is any course which I have advised
this House to take, I have recommended them to do so con-
sistently both with our duty to the Crown, and with our duty
to the people.—( Cheers.) We are the servants of the
Crown ; we are at the same time the Representatives of the
people._( Renewed cheers.) I think that these interests can
be combined, and with that conviction impressed on my mind,
I will not listen to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Twiss) whose
sentiments respecting the middle classes may be still in the
recollection of some who hear me, when he delivers a lecture
on the subject of what the people really are, what are the
opinions of the people, and as to who are those who misre-
present the sentiments of the people.—( Cheers.) I hold no
other doctrine that this—that I think we are here to represent
the people, and to consult the people's interest.—( Cheers.)
I do not impute it as a fault to another branch of the Legis-
lature, that when legislative measures come before them, they
have not considered what was their duty with regard to these
legislative measures ; but I do say, with respect to these
legislative measures, and with respect to the voting the sup-
plies of money to the Crown, that this House is in full pos-
session of those powers which any House of Commons ever
had.--( Loud cheers.) It is not for them (and I should be
very sorry to find them doing so) to enter into any debates or
discussions in which the independent rights, either of the
Crown or the House of Lords should be impugned ; but on
the other hand I am not ready (and I will not submit to do so
from any imputation which may be thrown out on the other
side) to give up one single iota of the powers which are con-
sidered the undoubted and indefeasible rights of the House of
Commons—to provide such laws as they think are necessary
for the redress of grievances, and to vote such supplies as they
may think in their consciences are best calculated to maintain
the honour of the Crown, and to preserve the great interests
of the country.—(Much cheering.) I state my opinions on
this subject only ; these opinions are not changed from what
they have been.—( Hear, hear.) I have been favourable to
measures of reform ; I am still favourable to measures of re-
form ; but I am not responsible undoubtedly for the opinions
of those with whom I may be found in a division.--t Hear.)
In some of those opinions they may differ from me ; but I must
say, that believing them to be anxious to act in such a way as
they think to be their duty to their constituents, I am persuaded
that the support which they have given to his Majesty's Minis-
ters is as independent and honest as any that was ever given, to
any Ministry.-- ( Hear, hear.) lam not disposed I repeat, to
hold myself answerable for every opinion which may be ex-
pressed by those Hon. Members in this House, or elsewhere;
but, on the other hand, I do not hesitate to accept their support
as tendered upon honest and conscientious grounds—a support
which could not be bought by corruption—(Cheers)--and I
feel convinced that if they do not withhold that support from
us for the future, they will not withhold it only because they
believe that we are endeavouring to do our best, in this great
crisis, to serve the mighty interests of the people.—(Loud
and continued cheering.)
Mr. TWISS had not interrupted the Noble Lord, though
he would have been justified in doing so on the ground of
misrepresentation. The mistake into which the Noble Lord
had now fallen was the same as that which was committed by
Lord Althorp during the discussion on the Reform Bill. The
opinions which he expressed upon that occasion with respect
to the middle classes were misconceived by the Noble Lord
(Lord Althorp,) as he (Mr. Twiss) had proved. He was
surprised, therefore, to hear this misrepresentation repeated.
Lord J. RUSSELL was extremely sorry to have misre-
presented the Hon. Gentleman ; but his impression of
what had occurred on the occasion alluded to, was such as he
had stated.

Sir E. COD RINGTON begged to return his Majesty's
Ministers thanks for the expression of the constitutional doctrines
which they had that night given.—( Hear, hear.) It was be-
cause he was an ardent admirer of our present form of Go-
vernment, that he was desirous that the just expectations of
the people should be granted, and he was quite sure that if
they were not, serious consequences would result to that con-
stitution—( Hear. )
Dr. BALD WIN took that opportunity of saying that a
petition, agreed to at a most numerous and respectable meet-
ing in the city of Cork, had been presented to the House of
Lords, praying that they would pass the Municipal Reform
Bill as it was sent up from the Commons, without any altera-
tion in its main principles. It was well known that Cork
was the second city in point of wealth and independence in
Ireland, and he had mentioned the fact of such a pe-
tition having been agreed to in that city, to show that the
strongest interest was felt in the fate of this measure amongst
the people of Ireland as well as those of England:—( Hear.)
He conceived that the sentiments of the Hon. Mbmber for
Birmingham had been grossly misrepresented on the other
side, for he understood his argument to be, that the people
were not inclined to sweep away any branch of the Legisla-
ture until they found that its preservation was wholly incom-
patible with the maintenance of their rights and liberties.—
(Hear.) He, for one, had no hesitation in declaring that he
would not consent to the Appropriation Act being passed, or
the supplies being voted to his Majesty's Ministers, until he
saw strong grounds for believing that the grievances of the
people would be effectually redressed.—( Cheers.) What was
the state of things now before him? A Government was in
power in whom the people have confidence—a Ministry which
had established a further claim to the gratitude of the country
by the constitutional doctrines which they had that night pro-
pounded.—(Hear, hear.) They were opposed by a faction
by whom they might, as they were heretofore, be defeated ;
but whilst he could not then say where the manifestation of the
opinions of that faction were most clearly exhibited, or where
their strong hold existed, he could not help expressing his un-
willingness to vote those supplies which might be diverted from
their legitimate objects, and turned to the advantage of that
band by whom the people had been plundered and oppressed.
—( Cheers.) It was his fixed resolution to remain there to
contend for the liberty of the people; and whilst that was in
danger, he should never consent to vote the Supplies.

TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE.
Petitions in favour of these taxes having been presented by
Mr. Grote, Mr. Bulwer, Mr. flume, Mr. Wakley, and other

Hon. Members,

Mr. EDWARD LYTTON BULWER rose and said--
Sir, I can assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that I am ex-

ceedingly glad of the delay that has taken place in the bring-
ing forward of this motion. lam exceedingly rejoiced at the
conversation which has just taken place, and which, I am sa-
tisfied, will be hailed with the greatest pleasure by the coun-
try. lam also glad that the motion has been delayed until
so many and so respectably_signed petitions have been pre-
sented in favour of it.--( Hear.) The present motion is not

a novel one, as on two former occasions a similar one has been

brought forward, and therefore I can assure the House that j

will not occupy its time for more than a few moments. I am
sure the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer will acquit me of the least desire to embarrass the
Government. have supported it out of rower humbly, Zel-

lously, but disintereatediy ; but I support them with 561/
greater pleasure now that they are in power, because hitherto
they have nobly justified the grounds on which I de-
sired their restoration to office, and never, I believe,
.-'ore than . by their speeches of this evening.—( Cheers.)
That c‘,.:_aiderable excitement prevails upon this subject
throughout the ta;un
try, it is in rain to deny. I will anpei!l
to the Member of .manufacturing town, and ask hint tf
the tie'peal of the Taxes on Knowledge is not one of the nansli
popular demands among his constituents?—( Hear, hear. )
have looked at the Report of the Select Committee on Publie.
Petitions, and I find that the number of petitions presented
upon this subject, during the present session, greatly exceed
the number in favour of ?.lunicipal Reform, and arc double,
the number praying for the abolition of tithes. More, rn
fact have been presented praying for the repeal of this, than
have been presented far the repeal of any other tax.--( Hear. )
The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the
other day with great propriety and great eloquence, that he
would trot consent to purchase popularity upon false and un
real grounds ; but I would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman'
one question—What has made the real lasting and merited
popularity of the present Government ? Has it not arion
from then consistent advocacy of liberty of coinion ? In Catho
lie Emancipation—the repeal of the Test an Corporation Acts,
and Parliamentary and Municipal Reform Bills ?—( Cheers.)
Is it, therefore, on unreal' grounds that I ask of my Right
Hon. Friend to repeal this tax. The principle of their policy
heretofore has had its reward--they have given voice to opi-
nion. and that voice has supported the power that. created it.
All I ask of my Bight Hon. Friend is, to give the same liberty
of opinion to writing, which lie and those associated wittt 15
face obtained their influence .and reputation by giving •fr.l"
speech and action. The whole expression of public opinion,.
in a periodical shape, is at present confined to the narrowest
oligarchy that ever disgraced a free country. No man can
publish a newspaper—that is, no man can write periodically
upon the news of the day, or the debates in Parliament, or
any domestic or foreign affairs—without paying fourpence up°
every sheet in the shape of a tax.—( Loud cries of hear.):
The result is, that the legal market is altogether confined to..
great capitalists, and exclusive monopolists, while a large and
cheap market was opened to smugglers. I am aware thet rf
you take 'away the whole duty, papers such as the Times Sou
still require an immense capital, but still a number of papers,
upon a thousand subjects interesting to the great bulk of the po-
pulation, will be published which will. not require that capital.
It is perfectly absurd to see only five or six morning papers
for the active, thoughtful, and stirring population of th!iii coun-
try. This is not the case in America, where a single cf.:strict.
supports as many morning and evening papers as the whoa.*of
England. But I need only refer to England itself to shod
the operation of this tax. In 1792 there were thirteen morn-
ing and twenty evening papers published in London—(Loud
cheers)—although at that time the numerical population mus,ti,
have been much less, and the readily, population not one half
what it is at present. It was absurd' to talk about the liberty
of the Press in England so long as the taxes on knowledge
continued as at present—it was absurd to say that "it is the;
very air we breathe, and which, if' we have not, we perish,'
when the Press was fettered by a tax which renders its condi-
tion a pecuniary one, and its result a monopoly.—(Cheers;)
It has been urged that if the newspapee Press. is rendered
cheap, it will become bad and worthless, and that if the market
is widened the commodity will be deteriorated. Why, if this ar-
gument were used in any other article of trade a man would be set
down as an idiot. If a dozen persons only were allowed to sell'
spectacles, and a proposition was made to allow every person to
sell them, would not the statesman who told you that in that case
spectacles would be good for nothing, deserve to be laugh'
ed at ?—( Hear and cheers.) The analogy holds good with evert
thing—the greater the competition the greater the chance °of.
excellence, and the wider the market the better the commodi-
ty. But this truth obtains more with respect to literaitare
than any thing else. Does the history of literature tell you
that a man writes well in proportion as he is wealthy, and thriC,
the extent of his knowledge or genius is in proportion to his
stock in the 3 per cents. ?—( Cheers.) I am afraid you will floe
that the reverse is the fact. If a tax of 200 per cent, which it
that now imposed upon newspapers, were placed upon all
other species of literature, it would long since have put an e:t"
tingnisher upon all the best literature of the country. What
extinguished the Spectator:?—w as it not the tax of one penny
The eloquence of Addison and the wit of Steele, could not
make head against a penny tax—( Applause.) How many
Spectators in politics equally talented may you not have es-
tinguished by a tax of four times the amount ?—(Cheers-)
I will ask my Right Honourable friend what difference
is there between. political periodical writing and any other
writing ? Are they not subject to the same laws—call-
ing forth the same intellect—demanding the same competi-
tion, and subject to the same regulations? In short, is there
any difference but that political, and particularly periodical
political writing, is much snore generally useful and unportant
than any other description. If. I was a poor man, and that
had not read the Rambler, or Spftator, or Skaspeare, or
Milton, I do not well see how I would stand a greater chance,
of being imprisoned, or transported, or hanged. But were ,
in the same circumstances, and did not read the newspapers--;
if I did not know what new laws were passed which surrounded
me with punishments—if I did not know what was iegal and
what was illegal—l am liable to suffer through ignorance, and
this tax of fourpence subjects me to crime," and exposes me to
the gallows by' keeping from me the requisite knowledge----
(Hear.) I can compare the system to nothing but shutting
men up in a dark room, and. declaring that they will he se-, ,
verely punished if they stumble against the numerous ob-
stacles by which they are surrounded.—(Loud cheers.)
confess I do not share in the feelings entertained by
some Honourable Members against the present newspaPer,
Press. Where a great power exists it is sometimes abuse"'
but the wonder appears to me to be that its powers have been'
so seldom abused.--( Hear.) I hope I have shown that I 811/
above the meanness of flattering or fawning upon this formi-
dable engine of praise or censure, by having been the first per-
son' to bring forward a substantive motion for the Repeal of the.
existing monopoly; and, therefore, it is, that I think I may be
allowed to bear witness to the talent, respectability, character,-
and accomplished education of the great mass of the gentlemen
connected with the periodical Press.—( Hear.) I use this, not
as a compliment, but as an argument, in favour of my motion,
because it is precisely—because the Press is thus able and.
excellent—that we ought to extend its advantages as widely
as possible.—( Cheers.) Can any one suppose that these gen-
tlemen will write worse when they have a larger community to
address ?—( Hear.) But it may be said, that if they write for
the multitude they must inevitably pander to their base pas"
sions. Whoever makes that assertion knows very little-
about the multitude. Look at the papers which please
the great mass of the people, and you will find articles
on science, trade, education, the steam-engine, and matters:
which would appear tedious to us. They do not desire that
their bad passions should be aroused—they seek'to have their
minds enlightened. They live by labour and seek to know
how that labour may be best directed. lam afraid it is we--"
the idle rich—" the lords of luxury and ease," who require
a false and meretricious excitement—who alone support the
disgraces of the Press—who encourage the slander and scand/0
the venom and frivolity, which were first wrought into sundry
libels, not by a radical journal, not by a heartless demagogue
print, but by a paper professiog to take gentlemen on the
other side of the House under its especial protecticin,
and which furnishes the gossip of the Court, and the
tittle tattle of the aristocracy.—( Loud laughter and cheers.)
If you look at the large Newspapers which circulate among
the great mass of the people, you will find in them the most
varied information, the most argumentative writing, and a
freedom from all private calumny, vulgar slander, and per-,
sonal abuse. (Loud cheers.) But it may be
If you make the press free, many dangerous and revo...
lutionary political doctrines may be published. Doubtless
there will be, as nraw, doctrines of all sorts—the good and the
bad? But who is decide the question? Who will decide
what is good and what bad? Some Hon. Members on the
other side of the House tell you that the doctrines of the pre'
sent Government are revolutionary and dangerous ; whereas,
from what I have heard this very night, if I were asked what
doctrines were most likely to weaken the just influence of the
Crown, separate the different classes, incense the people, and
produce and hasten the course of revolution—l should say that
it was the doctrine of the Conservatives.—( Cheering, and
Hear, hear.) Who then shall decide the question as to whet
is good and what is bad--what is useful, and what is revolt?
tionary ? None can do so : scarcely time itself can decide it•
In the words of an able' writer—" Truth requires no 'inscrip-
tion to distinguish it from darkness ; and all that Truth wants
is the liberty of expression."—( Great cheering.) Has not the
terror of the propagation of dangerous doctrines been used
against the progress of enlightenment ? Is it not for this
that censors have been placed upon books, and inquisitors ui)°e
opinions ? What effect have these prosecutions produced ~
The French Court prohibited the works of Voltaire, and Vol-
taire became at once endowed with the power to shake old
p
opinion to its centre. Geneva burnt the social contract of
Rousseau, and out of its ashes arose the phoenix of its influ-
ence. Tom Paine had not sold ten copies of his notorious
work, when the English Government thought fit to prosecut
him, and within a week from that period there were 01"
30,000 copies !—( Hear, hear.) Government never had pre-
vented, and never could prevent, the propagation of danger-
ous doctrines by prohibitions, either in the shape of a tax or a
law—the only effect of persecution was to render the doe-
trines more dangerous and the people more eager. If I want
a new proof of the truth of this argument, do I not find Rig
the very tax I ask you to repeal ? For how ulaLl!,
years have yvti Leen endeavouring to put down t"'-
unstamped press, whose doctrines are alleged to be dan-
gerous; and for how many years has it enjoyed impuoitY'
and deluged every manufacturing town ? The market has been
literally overstocked with them, and if you were to repeal te
whole tax to-morrow, there would not be a single new puhb-
cation of these dangerous, inflammatory doctrines, for dtir-
ing the last seven or eight years every one who wished to Pu,n-
lish-them has done so with impunity.—( Hear.) By the imnosi"
tion of the tax upon the more respectable class, you You
prevented any reply to these dangerous publications. "'-
have given up the field to these who have sown it with noxious
weeds, and prevented the good husbandman from labouring to
it. You are now at last embarked in an obstinate war with the
unstamped Press—a war in which lam sure you will not sac'
ceed—( Hear.) I ask the Right Hon. Gentleman does I:e
think for a moment that he can succeed ?—( Hear, hear.) It
t
impossible, for no one ever did succeed in putting down sronii.
ling when the tax was 200 per cent upon the article smuggle-.
he
My Right lion. Friend is aware better than myself, that t-
only way to diminish smuggling, where it had risen to an coon,
orrnous height, is to reduce the tax, and that is what I lOW
urge upon my Right Hon. Friend.—( Hear.) Ido not ask A tf.
tal repeal, but only a reduction to one penny. By ,
reduction, I think, a very great advantage
.will be gear
ed. We will materially extend the advantages of know'
ledge without in the least diminishing the amount of revenue.
The stamp duty at present produced (after allowing for th.e
discount) three Fence and a fraction upon each parer ; endf

i;

it

tin
th,

=

n with soli
arse hitherto
vhich I de-

I believe,.
—( Cheers. )
this subject
%vill appcal
ask him if
of the most
r, hear.) I
ee on Pubik,
s presenteti
catty exceed'
I arc double'.

More, in
of thin„ than
x.—( Bear• )
luer said the
❑ce, that ho
and un-
Gentleman
and merited

t not ariien
? In Catho-
oration Acts,
—( Cheers.)
f my Right
their policy
o;ce to op''
t, erlated it.
same liberty
cd wittt him
r giving .1:0
►lic opinion,
narrowest

rerolu'
ecide

inscrip-
th wants

S not the
een used
for this

ors upon
)duced ?
nd V°l-
- o
itract

iisinflu-
Lotorioas

roseciltl
ere 501'

lad pre'
danger'
tax or a

lie doe-
r I wan'
ind itin
many
,n the

be clan-

wunity,
las been
ical the
publi-
or dur-
to pul)::

impost"
LI have

You
noxious
rife, in
with the

ot Stie-
lOCS he
.) It's
55114:
pycgleo'
hat the

n enor-
noir
sk 10°-
[3y this
gain'
know'

!vent!c•

For the
etrA if

rt was reduced to one penny, we would require only three I
times the present number of papers to be sold to renit:„eeete
the revenue. Does not any man, who is acque:
habits of the need with the
workin classes know—doee not eetey men Who
is away g e el' their extraordinary desire for knowledgxe ee.ceetifie
;n1;1 political—feel that we snould then have three times as
many papers published as at present
Right Besides, then my
Honourable Friend having mark this concession, would
be justified in coming down to this House, and demanding new
and more efficient laws for the suppression of smuggling--the
result of which bring all, or nearly all, of the slippery fish
that at present crept out of the meshes, into lily Right Hon.
Friend's net.—( ) Then, in addition to the increased
ellen:dation, there would be the increased advertisement duty, and the increased paper duty ;so that without being at all too , sango:
la I cannot see how the revenue can be--bv
any means—a loser.—( Hear, hear, and loud cheering.)
Suppose the stamp duty was reduced, as I have proposed, to
one
eipenny, such papers as the Tines
and Chronicle,
bids re_
quire a large capital, would not be able to sell for less than -11.
But new papers not requiring so large a capital weeel he
called into existence—papers partly literary, and containing
the news of the day—half scientific and. half meimercial,
which would this attract many readers, Ateeve all many reli-
gious publications would be called into existence, supported by
different religious societies, and coming forth two or three times
a week. Thus a new class would be called into existence, and
all pro'' •
euctive to the revenue in three ways__Ay the stamp duty,
the advertisement duty, and the paper duty.—( Hear.) It was
stated in a periodical a short time since that if the whole duty
Were taken off, ten times as many papers would be published as
et present ; and therefore, with only a tax of a penny, I have a
right to assume that three times as many would be published.
(Hear, hear, hear.) The amount of a penny tax upon
three times the present number of sheets, would be 400,0001.
I greatly underrate the paper duty if I take the increase at
30,000/., and the increased advertisement duty at 20,0001.,
!taking a total of 450.0001, which equals the sum produced
by the present 4d. tax. The increased paper duty I have
greatly under-rated, as a high duty diminishes the profit and
the sale to a very considerable extent. In a calculation made
respeeting the Penny illagazine, it has been shown that if a
tax of one penny was imposed, the sale would be decreased
one-tenth, and comparing the increased duty on the stamp
with the loss of revenue on the paper duty, it was clearly as-
4001etThined that the Exchequer would lose on that paper alone
pall a-year.—( Hear, bear.) Apply this argument gene-
Ys and you will see how much the Revenue loses by the
PrePent high rate of duty. The system has robbed the Re-
're'due on the one hand of more than it has paid into it on the
but Hear.) I shall not detain the House much leeger ;
'lt before I conclude, I must say, that the present Govern-
Ment owes something to the provincial Press ; and, with few
Thexceptions, the Provincial press has Petitioned for some relief.
ey have supported the Government nobly—(Cheers)—and
bout their assistance I doubt much if any liberal Govern-
reent could have made bead against the determined and
Vehement attacks of three morning Papers of great circulation
and influence.—( Hear, hear.) Yet these Papers were
cramped in their exertions, and limited in their power, by
narrowing the audience they addressed. You owe something
talso to those who, supporting opinions more (I should say) de-
ermined and dreaded than your own, had vet supported you
uli
rankly and generously. The panegyric which my Right
nn. Friend has to-night pronounced upon that class who,
Professing these opinions, have yet compromised them to a
certain extent, and given to the Government their independent
and undivided support, is another argument in favour of my
rlintion ; for there is no concession which will be looked upon
as a greater boon, nor none which will be repaid more largely
and generously by the party who, whether in praise or blame,
recalled the Radical party, than a concession upon this point.
any body of men had ever acted from the purest public
tMotives, partriotically and disinterestedly, I believe it is that
„ arty, and therefore I do say that my Right Honourable
riend owes them some concession.—(Loud cheering.)
The last argument I shall use is, that the Government owe
sit to themselves and to their own consistency, to make
ame concession to the Press. They will not in such a case be
sacrificing their own opinions to please a great body of the
Public, and of their supporters—they will be merely following
UP those sentiments which have been expressed on former oc-
casions; for there are few now on the Treasury Bench who have
144, on some former occasion, expressed themselves favourable
te the measure, and among them I may enumerate the Right
Hon• the President of the Board of Trade, the Noble Lord
tothei Secretary for Ireland, the Right Hon. the Chancellor of
e Excheauer, and the Right Hon. his Majesty's present At-
°llteY-Gereral. I have the greatest confidence, therefore,
4 the present Government, and I hope upon this question,
as upon all others, Isbell live to see them faithful to the great
Principle of Reform, which proportions power to intelligence,
and which, while it renders the constitution mot popular, pre-
'vents the danger by rendering the people more enlightened.—
°lnch cheering.) So strong is my reliance upon the objects
and intentions of the present Government, that I am satisfied
the more widely their sentiments were diffused and known to
the reading public, the more generally would they be approved.
regret to see them shut themselves out from half the na-
tional enthusiasm and half the popular support which would
thherwise be theirs, until they bring the laws they enact and
c Principles they advocate cheaply, easily, and familiarly
pee,
ore that great ;,ass of the community for whose benefit
they have laboueed, and in whose cause they have won their
Most imperishable renown.—( Cheers. ) It is with this hope
trilh;.t I now trove that the House do resolve itself into a Com-
ti,`tee of the whole House, to consider the question that, for
tho teore general diffusion of knowledge, it is expedient that
tamp Duty on Newspapers be reduced to one penny.
,I.ne Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering.
,'"r• HUME—I rise, Sir, to second the motion of the Hon.
13''ielnber with very great pleasure. My opinions upon this
ilbinet are so well known to the House and the country ge-
nerally, that it is scarcely necessary for me to repeat them,
and there is little danger of their being misunderstood.—( Hear,
Frr•) I shall merely observe that the arguments of my Hon.
thr'end appear to me so convincing, that I cannot but hope
ceeY will have due weight with the Chancellor of the Ex-
cinequer..._( Hear. ) If his Majesty's Government, after the
eelararion of this night, believe that we have given them our
ill't!cere and honest support, I ask of them to grant us but
tals one boon—l do not ask it for their own sakes, or for their
nadvantage, but as a boon to the country that has so meg-
fr nously supported them ; and even if they differ a little
fie m us Upon this question, let them, as we have done, sacri-
a little of their opinions, to reward those who have stood
13' them in the struggle.—( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.)
Led° not recollect the exact number of petitions which have
a Presented upon this subject; but I believe there is scarce
arße town in England that has not appeared by petition at
the
bar of the House, and given expression to its wishes for
..e repeal of this tax. Why, Sir, all the parties who had
eche
rreorted his Majesty's Government, from 1830 up to the
esent moment, and enabled them to carry through the im-
ti7t4nt Reforms projected by them, are deeply interested in
arc question. The people are asking in every quarter who
his in the Persons who have imposed these taxes that have kept
40,
darkness 9 Who are those who have shackled the Press,
Pep .
vhat objects have they had in view in so doing ? Sir, the
h
Thrl e are able to see pretty well what these objects are.
t4° Right Hon. Gentleman and the Government ere relieving
ties- Pe°Ple of Ireland from the pressure of taxation—then,
eoIYIY, the time has come when something ought to be done
ith,e millions of this country—let the Government, then,
the'e ttlem this cheap knowledge, and they would confer upon
I c°llntry one of the greatest boons in their power.—( Cheers. )
speak therefore, to my lion. Friends who are below me—l
do t 4 them as one most anxious to keep them in the situa-
the, theY are now in—( Cheers)—l call upon them not to
them the millions of people who are anxious to give
tie g, every support. Let them do this—reduce the stamp du-
-4,--es) and they may laugh to scorn the opposition of those who
tot:illcidersonotfhtehoether side. They were carried into office on the
people, because they were thought to be
,rierous for the welfare of the people.—( Loud cheers.)
1), let them give this boon to the people, and their
seliport will not only be continued but so much increased as to
ticapic them to put aside the opposition going on, either in
Non
House or in any other place.—( Cheers.) Let the Right
remember
Gentleman at once then abrogate those laws which they
were imposed by their eemies and the enemies of
the
JPeople, It cannot, surely, afford these Gentlemen any
satisfaction to know that 511 persons have been imprisoned by
them.
Ott The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER dissented
was )1,-,c by the Government.
s'\ll% tiUME—I do not care. Sir, whether the law is put in
ere by the Government or by common informers, but the fact
f.,t as I have stated, that from the time they came into office up
"'" March, 1834, no less than 511 persons suffered im-
r_
"isonment for a breach of these laws.—( Hear, hear.) Let
c Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
nuke . •
;'z':)ti now before the House does not go to the full extent of
ej,wishes. I would have these laws entirely done away
tn, and the Press entirely free. But, Sir, lam willing, if
Islit,,Yiecornproinise could be made, to take any part of the good
Pa
tarl could get. I, however, would prefer to see news-
Zirs without any stamp, and a small postage charged upon
ncir transmission into the country. I give this advice most
erelY • and if upon a late occasion I exressemysel
warmly, in speaking of my Hon. Friends below me, it
that
because I was most anxious to drive them forward
(Lau course which I considered would be for their good.—
se,aueqhter. ) I speak strongly, because I know that I air.
0;-eria4ing on behalf of the millions of my fellow-country-
irr-(Lou'a cheers.)
Lie question having been put by the SPEAKER,
4ihe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose and
pi,‘indoubtedly, Sir, Ido not rise for the purpose of corn-
iii'trt!ig of the motion of my Hon. Friend, or of the speeches
which the question has been brought forward, but for the
:tteir,lpaotejoellosf
trheetyurning thanks to my Hon. Friends for the oh-
have made on our behalf, and for the • calm
,eent.temperate mode in which they have approached the sub-
' Ido not complain of the motion itself, although I will
1.17e,_ the liberty of praying the House not at the present mo-
Let,'
sto agree to it. do not complain of the subject having
4111_,n brought forward—it is fitting that it should be discussed,
errthat upon the principle which was opened by my
i'-111!•ale Friend opposite (Mr. Bulwer.)—(Hear.) It is
l:etaysing to me also that it has now been brought forward,
otiatt! e upon this subject I have been much misrepresented.
seheefie,one hand, it has been said that I have broken pledges
on `,',n I have given for the total repeal of these duties, while,
forlint.e other hand, I have been represented as being a stickler
eto,)",cil, and totally opposed to their repeal. I will not now
the
It e,
justify myself, but I will say before this House, that
itno,aceusation is as false as the other. Sir, I consider
that
of rea,l: °lle of the greatest of all misrepresentations in point
pre. •y_l, and of mistakes in point of fact, to say that the
tax....(,at? be kept up and maintained by the aid of a heavy
elailios'-'heers.) Ido not think, Sir, that sound political
ate 1-y the aid of a Stamp Duty,—

liar.
al
...,noPri latmilto ers having at this
molted s:dititiked (4:tah rather loud while sleeping on
oim eI ibe l:Venthes.) Sir, it is not through the agency of a
staeqi iliat the character of the Press is to he maintaihed, but
upon the character of the peepl.'t tiiittillgst *kohl it circulated.
If you have a mertkll tntollit'aid; and bniiihtebed people,
then you will also fi t\•r a e'rtis, ilie 6ailie kl,hareetBr, whether
with or *ithcet a §labip, With these opinions, Ido not de-
fend thlli to.k Upon the ground of its being. a Protection to
morals, or that by its means sound tiolitial krioOliA.4,-e is: con-
veyed to the people. In t'q opinion, it has no relation to
these objects. or another. Upon a late occasion I
did net. 'Speak of the unstamped Press, because I did not then
think it would have been fair; but when we are dealing
with the argument whirl) PilptiO?:iCtl that trle Arcs;, it free,
would be of e and more moral nature than at pre-
sent, I Wish to call the attention of the House in;
of the public to the character of the unstamped Press. i will
r,ad thz evidence given upon that pZ;int—the character of the
unstarved ere—before a Committee of this House by
ht.•rd brougham, who, upon this subject is ro fti6il atittio-
rity.—( The Right Hon. Gentlertatt read a passage from
Lord Brougham's evitittlet, In which that Noble and Learned
Lord expretted himself strongly with respect to the ribaldry,
vindictiveness, and malignity of the unstamped Press.) My
object, Sir, in reading this passage is td thdtk, tti these *lib
think that publications free ft-eiti duty Will beat' tt higher cha-
racter than at present, that the supporters of the tax have
some ground Upon which to go. I, however, say that it is no
sufficient argument against the claims of these *hp aflt file its
reduction—upon grounds of metal aril ediidil political know-
ledge—for the peeple tde not think that the high stamp duty
can be defendcd.=-.(l:pud cheers.) I will take a more frank
stand==-.I ttated when the subject was under discus-
sion on a former occasion, and I now repeat it without
hesitation, and I think it will justify me in the manner in
which I deal with the question, Sir, I deal with it as a
question of Revenue alone. As a matter of Revenue alone, I
deal with this tax, its I would with a duty upon wine or other
article. lam told, or may be told, that there would be
ample remuneration to the Revenue by the change, but I am
not now in a condition which enables me to try any experiments.
If I had a surplus that I might deal with, this would be one of
the very first taxes. For I may say, and Ido assure the House,
that this subject has been for some time occupying the utmost
attention of the Government. But, Sir, with a surplus
pared down, as I explained to the House on a former day, I
must be in difficulties as I am now situated, and I can under
no circumstances deal with this tax unless I had a much
larger surplus than my calculations give me, and no prudent
Minister could do so. No man can say that I am in a condition
for trying experiments, and therefore I call upon the
House to stand by me, and not put the finances of the
country in a state of disorder and disarrangement. Sir, let
the House consider : I was engaged in raising a large loan
only a short time ago ; what would prudent men think of
-me,
after coming under the obligations to the public creditor, were
I now to deal with this tax as if I were in possession of a large
surplus? I feel that lam acting prudently, and, therefore, I
put it to the Hon. Member for Lincoln not to press his motion
on the present occasion. Now then, Sir, I will deal with the pro-
position of my Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex. I,
Sir, am not prepared to propose to Parliament the entire abo-
lition of this duty. It yields 450,0001., and I cannot see
how we can do without it ; nor can I foresee any circumstances
which induces me to hope for such a state of things, as to
enable me to give up so much. Though I do consider the
present amount of duty upon newspapers indefensible, still, Sir,
I must say that if I had such a sum to spare, there are other claims
for the relief of taxation ; and if I could spare 450,0001., I think
I could do more for the benefit of the country, than in applying it to
the abolition of this tax. Then, Sir, comes the proposition of a
postage duty, as made by my Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume.) In
the first place, that proposition, if carried into effect, would
act most unjustly between the town and country. It would
act most unjustly, for if there were parts where political know-
ledge ought to go cheap and free, it is the country places—in
towns there is always a system of improvement going on ; but
in the country places, I am sorry to say, there is much of ig-
norance yet to be dispelled. Why, Sir, where was
it that we got our support on the claims of the Roman
Catholics, but from the towns ?—in the country places we
were opposed most strenuously, because of the great ignorance
there prevailing, and this proposition of a postage duty would
throw all the burdens and difficulties upon those for whom it
was most desirable to take off the tax. But, Sir, I have one

argument more—it, in my opinion, would be entirely and ut-
terly impracticable, because we know, that now, when news-

papers pass free through the Post-office, where there is a cer-
tainty of the delivery, we know that even now a great portion
of the papers, both morning and evening, are transmitted by
coach. Then surely it must be clear to the House that it is
utterly false to say that a postage duty would ever make up
for the tax, and that the Revenue would not suffer. In some
parts of America there is no other conveyance but the mails—.
in this country the case was different ; and now when you find
that the parties are willing to pay for the transmission by coach,
it must be evident that the plan of a postage duty is imprac-
ticable.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If you impose such a postage
duty, you must pass a Bill making it highly penal on any one
sending any paper otherwise than by the post—you must give
the right of search, with all its attendant train of evils, which
this House will pause before introducing. Now, Sir, as to
the question of the amount of reduction. If it was to be done,
the measure must be a bold one—in order to be of any essen-
tial benefit to the community the measure must be a bold one ;
but at this moment 1 am not prepared either to accede or pro.
pose such a one. Now, Sir, I have expressed myself openly,
and I trust satisfactorily—l am also obliged to say that lam
not prepared to take this step upon another ground. We must
pass some measure for the protection of the Press itself—
there ought in my opinion to be something in the nature
of a copyright ; we know that some such law is necessary.
Unless there was some protection afforded there would be a du-
plicate paper published an hour after the original one, thus
taking all the benefit of its labour and expense, and in point of
fact getting all they have without one farthing expense. This
point ought not to be overlooked. lam not afraid of the
spread of political knowledge ; I am not one of those who
think the constitution of England is likely to be endangered by
the freest possible circulation of information. On the con-
trary, the more the population is informed, the more acurately
they are taught to weigh and consult the deliberations of
Statesmen ; and the more rapidly and extensively they are
made acquainted with the obligations to which the laws subject
them, the more secure will be the cause of universal reform,
and the more certain its success.—(Loud cheers.) Though
I do net think it is quite accurate to designate these duties
as entirely taxes on knowledge, yet I fear they have imposed
a very great check indeed on the progression of it.—( Hear.)
I believe that the taste of the people will lead them to prefer
wholesome publications, though it is not at all unlikely that
much poison will be diffused by persons who are degraded
enough to manufacture it. I concur most cordially with my
Hon. Friend, and would say with him—Let us do things ho-
nestly and in earnest.—( Hear.) If we fix a stamp on news-
papers, those who pay the duty ought to be protected by the
laws. That is what I ask for, protection for the fair trader.—
( Hear, hear.) I thank the House for the patience it has be-
stowed upon me. My Hon. Friend and Ido not differ on
the principle of the question, our only difference is
on the modes operandi. We differ only on the grounds of
proceeding to attain the object, and first I say,—" We can't
afford it."—(Laughter.) Next, we have not time this session
to accompany it with such measures as would be absolutely
requisite. lam perfectly persuaded that these declarations
will obtain for me great unpopularity, but I admit most une-
quivocally that I agree with the principle ; but I contend that
we must take time to weigh equally the claims of eve-y class
of the community, and that we must act in a manner consistent
with the justice of legislation. —( Hear, hear. )
_ _

• Mr. C. BUL LER—I am sure if the Right Hon. Gentle-
man should chtain any unpopularity, it will not be for the
manner in which he has treated this question, though I am
sorry that he does not go further. If, at any other time, be
has made any unpopular observations, he has now shown him-
self decided upon the justness of the principle, and he has
thrown aside all the odious arguments by which these taxes
have been supported in past times. He has admitted them to
be bad, and he has only asked for time and due consideration
to be enabled to remit them. But I am not convinced
that he might not safely have repealed them this year.—
( Hear, hear.) It is said they produce 400,000/., or
500,0001., and that if they were taken off, the revenue would
be deprived of 350,000/., because there is a surplus of only
200,000/. But if he had reduced the stamp duty to two-
, pence, probably there might be a deficiency of 100,0001., which,
if it were the case, I am sure could be very easily made up by
a duty on salmon or any other luxury.—( Hear, and laughter. )
It has been shown that these taxes do not cause an increase of
publication. This may be seen in the circulation of
the Penny Magazine and other cheap publications.—( Hear.)
I am acquainted with the circumstances of another part
of the public Press, the circulation of which is very large, I
mean the Sunday papers. The weekly papers generally
sell for 7d., but they are published only once in six days,
so that in fact the consumers of these papers only pay 7d.
in six days, while those who purchase the other papers pay
six times 7d. in six days. It appears that the weekly papers
circulate 20 millions per annum, and that the circulation of
the daily Press is but 15 millions a year. (The Honourable
Member here went into a calculation, the particular
figures of which, owing to the conversation which prevailed
in the House, were not perfectly heard in the gallery ;
but the result went to show that the readers of the weekly
papers were eight times as many as those of the daily papers.)
I say then, that it' you will go into these calculations you will
find it will give a large majority of readers to each weekly
paper, and this ought to satisfy the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer that the revenue would not suffer by such a reduction,
because each of these weekly readers would become daily
purchasers, and there would be a considerable increase
of the old daily readers. The only question for the
Chancellor of the Exchequer is,—is not a large portion
of the public Press injured by the great extent of
smuggling? If we could get a fair account of the number of
unstamped newspapers, we should find that they exceed by
thousands the stamped newspapers, and we should see that the
revenue is actually suffering, and that the morals of the com-
munity are suffering too, by the retention of this tax under the
present system. Some of the better kind of the weekly papers
have suffered to a great extent. I shall perhaps get no
great popularity for this, but I think a good and
rational law of libel ought to be established, which
would secure its freedom as well as its purity from slander,
and if we take off the duty, we should not think of doing so
without putting this check over it. This, too, must either do
harm or good, and if it does not do good it must do excessive
harm, for it deprives men of the media of knowing the laws,
which they are called on to obey, and under which they may be
convicted of unconscious crimes. With these laws the people
cannot be acquainted, while we prevent the use of the only
means of affbrding them this very necessary information. The
Right Honourable (32ntleann has admitted that the reorle

'Pia AIN, LONDON, SA

are deprived of political knowledge, and the truth is that
that knowledge i 5 not Only mcst useful,. but indispensable,
and we see this lir thin sucCOSs Of piiblieatidtm ishleh give
them this knowledge, though thiperfectly, and sometimes of a
very bad kind. I congratulate the House on the support of
thiS questiOn, fot it is now proved that this House has no de-
sii'e to prevent the spftitd df political knowledge, and that it is
not oppoSed to flit great moral forte if rightly and correctly
uod ; and that thC Miflisttifg dad flitsittert 14,1t0 pchi,..ved the
glorious Reform Act, only wait the fah' opportunity to gke a
fresh impetus to the diffusion of political knowledge and sa-
lutary information —( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
sat down amid cries of " Ouestion." He was impatiently heard
by thh 4pd cotOequently but imperfectly in the Gallery.
Mr. GIWTr, fast ittilw ieridiketi cries question," and
said,-1 can assure the House that It is il intention to
ttil
' a very ;tort time; but I think after the
speech of the Right Hon. the Charteeiti,7 of the Exchequer,
to whieli I hat lifttned with ranch pleasure, I think
alidwett to tav It eiindell a dl lhh itiotg enlightened and gene-
roils spirit than has been known to be displayed h toy
Member of any Executive Government before.—( Hear, hear.)
But I must also say, that after having heard pointed out in the
rilbst cleat; mariner, aiid .40 riftin tifofe forcibly than I can do,
tilt mischievous conseqttenceS of retaining that; tr!"_.nt,
.n much
stre Iger season than that founded on mere financial
cdtiSideratienS is necessary to justify their continuance
I think the Right Hon. derider/tan seemed to admit in his
financial statement; that there iktit strung pfbbabilify that the
Fedlictioit of this hi fftm 4d, It Id: itottld lid attended with
no loss to the revenue; in my opinion them Would be such an
increase of circulation as would by the paper duty alone make
up for any loss the revenue might suffer by reducing the duty.
That it my firm conviction,—(Cheers.) Now, Sir, I would
take the liberty of submitting to the flight Hon, Gentleman's
consideration, whether the liberal tone he has taken will not
tend to increase the objections to this tax ?—( Cheers.) I
really would wish to impress upon him how he, of all others,
can depend upon the continuation of this tax, of which he has
so ably pointed out the mischief, unless it can be shown to be
unquestionably necessary to our public credit.—(Cheers.)
That the Right Hon. Gentleman has fallen very far short
of that, I think nobody will deny.—(Hear, hear.) Now
Sir, with reference to the additional protection to the fair
trader, I must be allowed to remind the Right Hon. Gentle-
man that reductions, in my opinion, fair reductions, would be
the greatest protection to the fair trader.—( Cheers.) Now,
Sir, with regard to the Right Hon. Gentleman's idea as to
copy-right, I fully approve of it ; but it seems to me the
matter is so simple that a few lines in an Act of Parliament
would be quite sufficient for all practical purposes. I will
refrain from troubling the House at greater length than by
expressing the great interest I have and feel in this impor-
tant question—(Cheers)—and the strong feeling, the grow-
ing feeling there is upon this subject throughout all the great
towns of this country. There is that,
.Sir, going on upon this sub-
ject of which the Right Hon. Gentleman does not seem sensible,
or he would not decline to take off this tax.--( Cheers.)
Although I should be sorry to put the Government to any in-
convenience, yet in my opinion, if there are no other or better
grounds for retaining this tax than those stated by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, it ought to be taken off —( Cheers. )
I say once more, the Right Hon. Gentleman has not made
out any ground for retaining this tax, and therefore it is that
I regret the resolution to which he has come.--( Cheers.)
Mr. BUCKINGHAM—This tax, in my opinion, does not
bear any proportion to the Flee of the article, and I would
venture, therefore, to suggest, that if this tax was taken off
newspapers, and one of a penny or less put on, it would so
increase the circulation, that a greater revenue would be ac-
quired by it. If also free transmission was given to news-
papers to all parts of the country, the revenue, in my opinion,
would be increased. I think, on the whole, there ought to be
a graduated duty relative to newspapers.—( Cheers.)
Mr. WARBURTON—Sir, if there was any time in which
I should feel it to be my duty to oppose the Government it
would be the present. After the declaration that has been
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman on two most important
subjects, first, the declaration with respect to the internal po-
litics of the country; and secondly, the declaration that he
has made with respect to the duties or, newspapers, nothing
can be more satisfactory than the declaration the Right HOll.
Gentleman made, when he stated that the present high duty
on newspapers could neither be defended on principle or prac-
tice.—( Cheers.) What greater condemnation of the exist-
ing system can be pronounced than such a declaration coming
from such an authority. I cannot find out.—( Cheers.) The
case of low duties may be compared to the state of things
which existed before the invention of printing, and printing it-
self.—(Cheers.) All the arguments in the defence of
high duties, all the arguments for the purpose of restricting the
circulation of newspapers has been grappled with, and therefore
it will be unnecessary for me to say anything further upon it.
Now, if I decline, on account of the declarations of the Go-
vernment, to go along with them, I must say on account of the
situation in which we are placed after this declaration, and
after what we know to be the state of the difficulty in collect-
ing the revenue on newspapers, recollecting what that difficulty
is, I must say there never was an occasion on which I felt
more inclined than the present to dispute the grounds taken
by the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Cheers.) It is notorious
that without a system of persecution and inquisition,
which will no longer be borne—( Great cheering)—you
cannot continue the tax.—( Cheers.) In my opinion, it
will be utterly impossible to continue it six months longer after
the condemnation that has been given to it by the Right Hon.
Gentleman.—( Cheers.) If you continue this law for another
six months, in what state will you leave the country, the
people longing for a free communication, and yet the seizing
of presses belonging to newspapers being persevered in ?
(Cheers.) Under such circumstances, is it possible, I ask,
for the Government to carry on the duty much longer ?
(Cheers.) The truth is, the course that had been adopted
by Government bad lcd the public to doubt the sincerity of
their intentions, and their wishes and desires with respect to this
tax.—( Cheers.) The declarations that have been made on this
subject, were also made several years ago. My Hon. Friend,
the Member for Middlesex, knows that we once waited on
the Chancellor of the Exchequer three or four years ago,
and we had then the assurance that it was only an account of
the then state of politics, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
declared to us that he did not bring in a Bill to repeal these
duties.—(Cheers.) Now, we have been waiting for a liberal
Government to carry these intentions into effect, from that
time until the present moment, and what have we got now?—
(Cheers.) Why, the declaration of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, that they persevered in their former intention to
keep on the duty on newspapers.—(Cheers.) It will probably
be observed, that it is only with respect to the question of
finance that the duty has been kept on. I think upon that
question also, the decision which the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer has come to, is not the right one.—(Cheers.) Look to
the seizures that have taker, place. Let the Chancellor of the
Exchequer compare the state of his receipts from this tax and
the dissatisfaction that prevails, and I think he will find that
tic will have great difficulty in maintaining those receipts as
long as that dissatisfaction prevails.—(Cheers.) I have no
hesitation in saying he will not be able to maintain them.—_
( Cheers.) Now, Sir, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has
talked of taking off the duty of one particular class ;
I hate the name of taking off the duty on particular classes.
—( Cheers.) The object of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
in my opinion, ought to be to take off those taxes that will

give relief to all classes—(Cheers)—and I should like to
know where that class is to be found that does not read news-

papers ?—( Cheers.) Now I fully agree that something ought
to be done for the protection of copyright ; but I do believe
that an hour's conversation with the editors and proprietors of
two or three newspapers by the Solicitor to the Treasury would
enable him to draw such a clause as would be abundantly
sufficient to answer all the purposes required.—( Cheers.)
I looked, Sir, with alarm, when the right Hon. Gentleman
talked of greater powers, for I cannot think that greater powers
are nccossary.—( Cheers.) And why do I say so ? Because I
am persuaded if a proper duty was placed on newspapers, much
less power than the Government has at present would -enforce
their payment.—( Cheers.) Greater powers were not found
necessary when the tax was moderate, and I firmly believe
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in what he has done, has
very much miscalculated, and that he will find that out ere
long. Sir, in conclusion I must say that I shall be inclined,
whatever the lion. Mover may think right to do, to go
alonr, with him. If he divides, I shall divide with him—

(Cheers)—and if he thinks proper to defer the question, I
shall acquiesce in the propriety of the adoption of that
course.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—Sir, I must protest, in the first
place, against the opinion given by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer as being correct with

respect to the whole of the unstamped Press ; for there arc, I
must say, many most meritorious exceptions. I have had
many persons with me on the subject of the recent seizures
that have taken place—they came to me very angry, but they
left me very calm ; for I told them that the present state
of things could not long exist.—( Cheering.) After
all that has been admitted upon the subject, the only point in
my mind that should be really pressed upon the Chancellor of
the Exchequer is the reasonableness of trying the experiment.
Let him look to the papers in Ireland, and see if they were
not over-taxed.—( Cheers.) What was the whole amount of

the Stamp duty in that country, in which there was no less

than eightmillions of persons? It was only 8,0001. a-year. Why
was it so small ? Because the Stamp duty was so heavy—
( Cheers)—and there were so few persons who purchased news-
papers in consequence of it.—( Cheers.) The advertisement
duty is little or nothing, but that would be greatly enhanced if
the Stamp duty was so small as to increase the circulation.
I think, therefore, you have given ground for pressing
this experiment.—(Cheers.) Now I cannot help congra-
tulating the House and the country upon the sentiments
which have this night been expressed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman, that the fullest reliance might be placed on the
principle that actuated the Government to put the Press on
the freest form.—(Cheers.) What an admirable contrast
does this form with the Government of a neighbouring country?
—( Cheers.) There are in this country no infernal machines
—(Great cheering)—and why are there not? Because no
man will venture here to persecute the Press even in obe-
dience to the law—such is the force of public opinion.—
( Continued cheering.) One regrets to see that country in the
state in which it now is.—( Cheers.) How is it to be ac-
counted for? Why, by stifling public discussions and putting
down the freedom of thought.—( Continued cheering.)
A traitor Ministry and a King forgetful of the principles that
bad placed him on his throne, has caused all this.—( Great
cheering.) I have now to submit to my Hon. Friend, who
has brought forward this motion, whether the im died pledge
that has been given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not
in effect a pledge for the ultimate reduction of the tax.—
(Cheers.) Three or four months cannot elapsl before we
meet again, and I am sure my friend, when he s2es that Par-
liament, cannot meet for a week without having this mea-
sure brought forward. I think he will see the propriety
of postponing his rrasont motion tin the first Supply day in

UEDA Y, AUGUST

the next Session, When I have no hesitation in saying it will
meet with no opposition._( Cheers.)
Mr. WA L L ACE—I am sure that what has passed to
night will give universal satisfaction to the country. I think,
however, that every facility ought to be given to the circula-
tion of newspapers through the means of the Post-office. A
large addition to the revenue might be afforded by a better
system of management at the Post-office—( Cheers)—and any
defalcation made good, leaving also a large sinking fund by
the adoption of that course.—( Cheers. )
Mr. BAINE S—Sir, I feel anxious to make a few observa-
tions on this important subject. I entirely approve of the
motion made by my Honourable Friend. I think with him,
that there should be a reduction, not of the whole, but
the greater part, of the tax.—(Great cheering.) I am
persuaded that if the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the
Exchequer will adopt this resolution, and I infer from his
observations that he will ultimately adopt it—(Cheers)—he
need not apprehend that the Revenue will suffer from its
aaop.-n.—( Hear, hear.) I am persuaded that there are
means by great advantages may be derived from the
reclation,—( Cheers. ) But there is one subject which has
not been attended Vic. and wine:: I feel is entitled to as much
observation as the reduCtiott of the na,: upon newspapers,
and that is the reduction of the Ipon 1,:.7 paper itself.
--(Hear, hear.) By the reduction of the diay tapca: paper,
you will glat, advantages to all classes of sociefy;; wh'erea,a,
by the reduction ni' the duty upon newspapers, you gifts ad-
vantages to one class only. Ihe readers, and I need not say
that they arc a great many, of hooka', will all receive ad-
vantages by the reduction of the duty on paper. I hope
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he takes this sub-
ject lute eatilWeration, will not lose sight of what, in my
opinion, is of very great importance—the reduction of the
duty upon paper. With respect to the observations that
have been made upon the propriety of imposing a postage
duty, I conceive that that would be tin extremely prejudi-
cial measure. It would in my opinion operate to withhold
information from those persons who stand most in want of it.
—( Hear, hear.) It is also objectionable in another way.
Many faults would be found with the duty upon postage by
those wto now make no objections to paying the full ex-
pense of a newspaper, Many would object to pay postage
who have no objection f 6 pa a duty upon the article from
which they derive benefit, and for which they receive value.
I do think that this view of the asubject with respect to post-
age ought not to be lost sight of. If there shall be a duty
of one penny upon postage,. all those who now defraud the
revenue by selling and purchasing unstamped papers will con-
trive to send and receive their papers by other means than through
the Pert Office; they will avail themselves of those opportuni-
ties to contintie these frauds upon the revenue.—( Hear, bear. )
It will operate very much in this way, also that it will have the
effect of continuing a practice of doing injustice to the revenue,
and at the same time accustoming people to those habits which
it was most desirable should never prevail.—(Hear, hear.)
I feel perfectly convinced that if the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer shall ultimately determine upon the adoption of this mea-
sure, he will not find the revenue suffer.—( Loud cheers.) He
certainly will not find it aldrer to any great extent. I, myself,
most anxiously desire that the menue should not suffer, but even
under the circumstances in which we are placed, I do not feel
any doubt but that the Right Hon. Gentleman would find
himself in a situation of perfect security, although he should
determine to make the reduction this year.--(Loud cries of
" Hear.") I can conceive that consicerahle diinculties may
stand in the way of making the reduction at the present
moment : and among the rest the reduction in the duty ought
to be made to as to give protection to the fair trader ; and I
apprehend that we coold not find sufficient time during the
present Session to enact stielt laws as would give that neces-
sary protection. With respect to the conduct of the pro-
prietors of Newspapers, though they erne been called mono-
polists, and stigmatised in the course of this debate, their con-
duct I am persuaded, when fairly seen, will be thought per-
fectly reasonable. They have gone to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and said to him " We do not ask you whether you
will augment or diminish the duty, all we ask is that you will
place us upon a footing of perfect equality with all other
persons in the same trade ; if other persons publish news-
papers on unstamped paper, all we ask is to enjoy the
same privileges ; but if, on the contrary, we are placed un-
der the necessity of publishing on stamped paper, we require
that all other persons shall be compelled to the performance
of the same duty."—( Hear, hear.) I consider that claim
to be perfectly reasonable, and such as the publishers of
newspapers have a right to make. The Right Gen-
tleman has expressed his intention to give security to copy-
right (so we understood )—the giving such security I consider
to be a wise system of legislation, and such as I have no
doubt, if adopted, will be found perfectly satisfactory to all
those who are engaged in conducting the public Press, and
will be found alike conducive to the interests and the wishes
of the public at large ; and will inspire them with a lively
interest in the support of that Government of which the
Right Hon. Gentleman forms a part.—(Loud cheers.)

Mr. ROBINSON—I will not detain the House with
more than a few observations upon this very important
question. I believe that every gentleman who has spoken
has decidedly advocated some alteration in the Stamp Du-
ties.—( Hear, hear.) I can assure the House that there is
a strong feeling upon this subject amongst my constituency,
and the most respectable and influential portion of them de-
cidedly advocate an alteration of the duties upon newspapers,
and I have during the present session presented petitions
from them, praying for its repeal. I wish to ask the Noble
Lord opposite ( Russell), as I do not see the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place—
Oh, I beg the Right Honourable Gentleman's pardon—l did
not observe him—l wish to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
whether, after the very strong expressions lie has himself
used this night upon this subject, his Majesty's Ministers can
hope to maintain these duties in their present state ?—( Loud
cheering.) The question is in fact disposed of---( Hear hear)
—and I am very glad to observe the general concurrence of
opinion on the part of those who usually support the present
Government. And I hope that after the general expression
of the feeling of all sides of the House, that the Hon. Member
for Lincoln will not press his resolution.—( Hear, hear.) The
Right lion. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
has abandoned the tax upon principle, and I hope, therefore,
the Hon. Member will not press the House to a division.—
(Hear, hear.) I merely rose to express my own opinion, and
to ask this plain question—whether after the declared
opinion, openly given in the face of the public, upon
the principle of this tax, his Majesty's Government
have determined upon the maintenance of this tax upon only
one ground, that of finance—a ground which I consider to be
wholly untenable ? Can it be said that in this great country_
where we have a revenue of fifty millions—after the House of
Commons with one opinion has pronounced this a most ob-
jectionable tax, that it is yet to be maintained upon the prin-
ciple of revenue alone ? I will not further occupy the time of
the House.—( Loud cries of " Hear.") The cnly question is
in what way this tax may be most advantageously altered.-
-( Cheers.) I will not enter into the subject whether or not
a substitute should be adopted in lieu of the whole or of a por-
tion of it ; but I am most decidedly of opinion that if his
Majesty's Government will direct its attention during the re-
cess to some alteration of this tax, they will be only acting
in consonance with the public voice. I will only beg leave to
add, on the part of the trading community, that if in addition
to some remission of the stamp duty, there was a reduction of
the advertisement duty also, it would yield still more satisfaction.
I do not blame the Chancellor of the Exchequer for this tax,
but I tell him, on the part of the trading community, that
upon a remission of this tax, he might impose a more gene-
ral impost, and the remission of the duty upon advertisements
would enable the trading part of the community to avail
themselves of these sources of profit. Great advantages
would be conferred on the trading community, and I sin-
cerely believe that the public revenue would not sustain any
material loss. If the revenue sustained some loss by the
change of taxation, the House of Commons, I am sure, will
never consent to see a Chancellor of the Exchequer placed
in difficulties from the necessity of raising some slight taxes.
( Hear, hear. ) In the present duties there must be some
change.-_( Loud cheers. )

Mr. NV AK L E Y.—Sir, it rests with the Hon. Member who
has made the motion, whether we shall any longer continue to
have stamp duties or not. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, has invited the House to vote.
He has said that this is not a tax that can be defended upon
principle, and he says also that it is inexpedient in practice ;
and what, I ask, could a Chancellor of the Exchequer say
more ?—( Cheers.) He has said that this tax could not be
recommended; that in ,every sense of the word it is injurious to
the morals of the country; and after this declaration I consider
that this House, deserted as it is by the Conservatives-
(Great laughter—the Opposition Benches were almost empty)
—will not do its duty if it does not press this motion.—( Cheers.)
I am most anxious to give the present Ministry all the sup-
port it is in my power to give them, because I believe that
they are sincerely desirous of benefitting the best interests
of the country.—(Loud cheers.) But anxious as lam to
support them, my anxiety arises from a desire to see every
clog removed from the vehicles that convey political infor-
mation to the people. The people have petitioned in thou-
sands and tens of thousands for the repeal of this tax. If
the public only knew the benefit they would derive from
that repeal, ten thousand more would petition for its repeal.
—( Hear.) I sent to Somerset-House to know exactly what
was to be done before a man could publish a newspaper, and
the information I received, was to the following effect :—lf it
is a weekly paper, there must be given in the names, resi-
dences, and occupations, of two responsible sureties to secure
the payment of the duty, to the amount of 5001., and if a
daily paper, to the amount of 1,000/. Are not these clogs?
—( Cheers.) Further, there must be names, residences, and

occupations, of two more, as a security against the publica-
tion of blasphemous or seditious libels, to the amount of 3001.
Thus the Press is clogged in every way. The public can only
derive information in large towns. In small towns and rural
villages, they were in a state of utter political darkness, and
yet the art of printing has been in our possession for four
hundred years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has re-
fused to give any distinct pledge for the reduction of this tax
next Session, and he has alluded to the reductions already
made to the amount of forty millions ; and yet the Chancellor
of the Exchequer thinks that the public will derive a benefit
from the reduction of the Stamp Duties. How ? Why is it
that this discovery has never been made before ?—( Cheers.)
Because it was only lately they had applied to it the pressure
in that House and out of it.—( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.)
I do not allude to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer ;
because I believe he was always persuaded of the evils
of the existence of this tax, and anxious to relieve his mind
from the disagreeable necessity of continuing it.—( Laughter. )
It was admitted on all hands that it was an odious tax, it
pressed upon the country, and rendered the viimle people
subject to tyranny and despotism. If the Right Hoe. Gen-
tleman does not like this motion—if he will not be persuaded
to reduce this tax—would he like to put the tax up to a pOlic
Laughter and cheers.) If the reduction, 011;es

MMIEMMI

place, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will put the tax
up to a public auction, the subscription lists will be filled
in less than four hours, and I am satisfied that the con-
tractor will make a most excellent bargain who takes the
tax at one penny.—( Great cheering.) There is not a man in
this House who does not believe that if the tax was reduced to
one penny, the circulation will not be more than trebled.
—(Cheers.) Is there any man here who entertains a contrary
opinion" In country towns at present the people have no news-
papers. A newspaper goes down occasionally, but they have
no such thing as a printing establishment where a newspaper
was published. Only take off this tax, and we will soon have
established in all small towns a newspaper.—(Hear, hear.)
There would not be a town with 3,000 inhabitants which will
not have one or two newspapers, and the consequence will
be a great increase of the revenue from the paper duty, which
will in my opinion make up for any diminution that will
arise from the reduction of the stamp duty.—( Hear,
hear.) I, therefore, hope, that my Honourable Friend
the Member for Lincoln will press his motion, unless the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
gives a most distinct pledge that the tax shall come off in the
next session.—( Loud cheers.) The public, if we bring for-
wa,-,..1 such motions as this, and do not press them, will con-
-2i4„ thorn as so many farces. They will say these motions •
ht iilowii.rd to serve personal oi• individual purposes,
pubii4 I,:erests . are. entirely sacrificed.—_( Cheers.)
aatried fedoleOg
this night will satisfy the people that
this occasion—(Great cheering)
I hope that our cendtici
pu.blic. interests, and not
we have no such vices 011
amt= this principle in
and that we propose to look to the
Douse—and when
to our own. Sir, lam prepared to s,;
.I feel that I
this House—l have advocated it out of th:.`
I can more
I see any means of serving the public interes:_s,
ought to make use of it. I know no way in which,
effectually serve the public interests, than by suppthling the
present motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Sir. I

am anxious to offer a few words in explanation. The Hon.
Gentleman who has just sat down has argued as if I had
invited the House to take the course he has stated. Sir, I
stated that I never would consent to take this course ; that I
would never be responsible for taking it, because I consider
it inconsistent at the present moment with the financial state
of the country. I must say that it is not very generous in
the Hon. Gentleman to take advantage of my frank admis-
sions.—( Loud cheering. )
Mr; E. L. B ULWER —I consider that the Right Hon.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) has in his
speech pledged himself—l have a right to use that expression
—to the repeal of the Stamp duty.—(Great cheering.) I
consider that he has pledged himself in that speech
as strongly as any man can pledge himself.—( Con-
tinued cheering.) I believe that this duty cannot last.—
(Cheers.) I believe that it will be repealed in the next ses-
sion.—( Renewed cheering.) The only question remaining
now is one of delay.—( Hear, hear.) If I press this question
to a division at this moment, I am not sure that I shall carry
it, and if I do carry it,it will he with great moral disadvantages.
In the first place, it will weaken the Government at a inoment
when it ought to have collected round it its >vhole
strength.—(Tremendous cheering, in which the voice
of Mr. O'Connell was eminently distinguished.) In the
next place it will expose us to divisions when we ought
most to be united.—(Renewed cheering, which lasted some
time.) And in the third place we will render ourselves liable
to the accusation of acting against his Majesty's Government,
at a time when I sincerely believe they are in possession of the
national confidence.—( Tremendous cheering.) Under all
these circumstances I feel that on this, as on similar questions,
our object will be best attained—the Government acknow-
ledging the principle and asking only time and opportunity to
carry it into effect. With these views, and feeling that no
personal motive can attach to myself, I feel that I should not
stand well with the country if I pressed my motion to a divi-
sion.—(Great cheering. )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
Hon. gentleman is perfectly entitled to consider that I have
pledged myself to the principle of this tax which I never can
support, but if he means to say that I have pledged myself,
under all imaginable circumstances to repeal this tax next session,
I must say that I have given, and am prepared to give, no such
pledge. I may have the same difficulties to contend with—the
financial arrangements of the country may be exactly the same
—and in that case I shall be under the necessity of continuing
this tax. I have stated as distinctly as I could do what my
opinions were upon this subject, and from those there shall be
no departure, or compromise.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. E. BULWER—I consider the Right Hon. gentleman
to pledge him to the repeal of those taxes, if the Revenue can
bear it.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER--Aye,
supposing the revenue can bear it.—(Cheers.) But I must
say at the same time that this is a different state of the question
to what it was at first.

Mr. HUME—I am of opinion, after what has been stated,
that even if the finances of the country remain the same, the
Right lion. Gentleman is bound to find a substitute for this
tax.--( Loud cheers.) I consider that he is called upon, after
the general expression of the opinion of the House, so to do.
I will only add that if I had had any idea that Ole Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Member for Lincoln, was pledged not to press the
motion to a division, I would never have seconded if
cheering.)
Mr H. BUL W ER—My Hon. Friend the Member for
Lincoln never stated that he was pledged not to divide—he
only stated that i,c did not think it adviseable, under the pre-
sent circumstances, to divide the House. When the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has ad-
mitted the principle of the m‘.•tion, I do not see how my Hon.
Friend could divide the House.— ( Great cheering.)

The motion was then withdraws.
AIR. BUCKINGHAM'S CJ AIM.

On the motion of Mr. TULK, the adjourned debate on
Mr. Buckingham's Claim was resumed; and the Hon. Gen-
tleman addressed the House in support of the motion.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE regretted that the Hon. Member for
Sheffield was present in the House during the discussion of a
question involvinr, his own pecuniary claims. The claim for
compensation had twice been brought before the Court of Pro-
prietors, and had been rejected; and the subject, from 1835 to
1834. had not been taken up. A committee had been granted
at the latter period, and the House was now called upon to tn.--
the people of India to the amount of 40,000/. If the vote
was agreed to, neither the Court of Directors nor the Court
of Proprietors would lose one shilling, as the interest of the
Company was guaranteed by Act of Parliament. He denied
that Parliament had the right to levy a fine on the territory of
India for such a purpose, and in such a case as that now before
the House If there was any just ground of interference he
would not have opposed the motion. 1-13 wished to know why
the Bill had been postponed till this period of the session ?
Why had it not been brought in before ? He recommended
the Hon. Gentleman not to proceed with it. There was no
possibility, as far as lie could judge, of his carrying it. He
had no case at all. Mr. Buckingham's loss could not be
proved—his property could not be assessed—and, he believed,
no injustice was complained of. This was not a tribunal to
decide such a case. He should most strenuously oppose the
motion.

The SPEAKER asked whether the consent of the Crown
had been given ?
Sir J. HOB HOUSE would waive that question.
Mr. HUME was surprised at the course taken by the Right
Hon. Baronet. Mr. Buckingham suffered great injustice by
the arbitrary conduct of the Governor. He was in India on a
license, and his newspaper was realizing him a pre& of nearly
8,0001. a year, when he was banished, and it was suppressed.
This was for publishing an article objecting to an official ap-
pointment which the East India Company and the Govern-
ment themselves sent out an order to cancel. He hoped the
House would allow the Bill to go into committee, where some
compromise might be effected. Perhaps they could not ascer-
tain the value within 100/. or even 1,000/., but the Select
Committee desired to make some approach to justice. Let
them grant 30,0001. or 20,0001., or whatever was thought rea-
sonable. In the Committee some compromise might be effected.
Mr. ROBINSON opposed the motion.
Mr. BAI NE S supported the motion.
Mr. V. SMITH said, the obvious and only course for the
Hon. Gentleman to pursue, if he had been wronged, was that
of suing the Governor General for India. \Vith reference to
the account of the injury which had been suffered, he would
observe that while the Hon. Member for Middlesex had stated
it to be the loss of 8.0001. a year; the income derived from
his newspaper, Mr. Buckingham himself bad variously stated
it at 4,0001., 8,000/., and 8,0001. a year. The law under
which that gentleman had been removed was in full force at
the time ; and how could they entertain the question whether
they ought to compel the Company, who had acted in the dis-
cret►on vested in them by that law, and thus, under the sanc-
tion of the Legislature, to make compensation for its effects?
Mr. O'CONNEL L contended for the necessity of allowing
the Bill to be brought in, and leaving the details of it to the
Committee. A prima fade case had been established in the
Report of the Select Committee upon the subject.
Mr. WALKER supported the motion.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority in favour of the m0ti0n......... —32
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at two o'clock.

45

BELFAST ELECTION.—Two meetings, composed
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