The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-04 00:00:00

MAGISTRACY.

The Marquis of WESTMEATH alluded to the occur-
rences which had taken place at the Carlow election. Perhaps
the Noble Lord would favour the House with some explana-
tion this subject.
Lord DUNCANNON replied. An investigation had been
instituted, which had been intrusted to the Lord Lieutenant of
the county.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH thought it a very unfor-
tunate precedent, and he was very sorry for it.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Juzr 3.
The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.
Mr. JAMES OSWALD presented a petition from Glas.
gow, against the Glasgow Poor's-rate Bill.
CARLOW ELECTION.

The SPEAKER informed the House that he had received
a petition, complaining of the undue return of the new Mem-
bers for Carlow.
Sir H. PARNELL brought up the Report of the Commit-
tee on the Holyhead and Shrewsbury Road Bill.
VOTE BY BALLOT.
Mr. R. POTTER presented a petition from some place in
the Eastern Division of Devonshire, praying for the esta-
blishment of the vote by Ballot. He believed that the Ballot
was the only effectual remedy against undue influence on the
one hand, and physical force on the other. The Hon. Mem-
ber also presented a petition from Onagh, in Tyrone, in favour
of the Municipal Reform Bill.
NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES.

Mr. H. MA RSL AND presented a petition from Stockport,
with 3,000 signatures, praying relief from the Newspaper
Stamp Duty. The petitioners considered this duty extremely
injurious in preventing the spread of useful knowledge amongst
the working classes.
The same HON. MEMBER presented a petition from the same
place praying that all beer-houses might be placed on the
same footing with regard to the hours of business.
CORPORATE REFORM.

Mr. BO R.TH WIC K, when on Friday last he presented
a petition from the Mayor and Corporation of Evesham, had
ventured to solicit the particular attention of the House to it—
( Hear, hear,)—he had navy to present one from the
freemen and other inhabitants of the same Borough
upon the same subject, to which he must also call the serious
attention of the House. --( Hear, hear.) He was sure that the
House would feel the responsibility attending the position
of any man who had a voice in the legislature of this
Country, and who sat in that House. and that they would
consider it a crime of no common character if a person, placed
in such a situation were to swerve, under any influence what-
soever, from the onward path of public duty. The petition
which he on a former day presented from the Mayor and Cor-
poration of Evesliam, prayed a very reasonable favor on
the part of that House; for it was nothing more nor less than
this, that the British Parliament would be slow to take from
them those chartered rights which they had never violated—
that
the House of Commoas would not impose upon the country
a measure which should deprive the members of boroughs of
those rights to which they were entitled, not only by pri-
vate charter and long prescription, but by the higher right
of justice. When he stated from whence this petition came
—that it came from a Mayor and Corporation—some Hon
Members met this assertion with a sneer, as if a Mayor and
Corporation had not a right to petition the Legislature in re-
gard to a measure affecting their very existence—their dearest
rights—which deprived them of rights which former Kings
had conferred upon them, and their title, which they had
never forfeited by any act of injustice or opposition. That
sneer was unworthy of Hon. Gentlemen.—( Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member was here interrupted by
A MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

Mr. Pulman, the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod,
appeared at the table, and requested the attendance of the
Speaker and the House of Commons in the House of Lords, to
hear the Royal Assent given by Commission to several Bills,
for which see L ,rds' Report.
The SPEAKER, attended by several Members, then left the
House, and returned in about half an hour.
Mr. BORTH WICK would not have resumed his observa-
tions had the petition not affected the very well being of
English scwiety and the fame of Parliament. Neither the
Mayor, Aldermen, Recorder, or Capital Burgesses, of
Evesham, had any interest in this matter, of a private na-
ture. They were not paid -he read a part of the Report
of the Corporation Commissioners in proof of what he advanced.
In one of the notes to the Report by the Commissioners, they
stated that as far as they had the means of judging, it ap-
peared to them that the municipal authority was
vcst-d in the best hands with reference both to the
and character of the parties that could be
fouivl in so small a borough. He would put it to
the ['ruse, whether, because the House possessed power, it
ought to use it for the destruction of the chartered rights of
the free citizens of this borough, The Hon. Member was
proceeding with his remarks, in the course of which he intro-
duced the name of General Mina, when
Mr. BAINES rose to order.

Mr. BORT lIW ICK appealed to the Chair.
The SPEAKER did not know that the Honourable
Member was out of order, but it was not usual to speak
at such great length on presenting petitions, as. it would
be very inconvenient for other Members who were also
waiting to present petitions. The proper time for entering
into a minute discussion upon the subject of the petition would
be when the question was regularly before the House.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the Hon. Member was not
quite in order; for what had General Mina to do with the
borough of Evesham ?—( Hear and laughter.)
B O R TH WICK, with all deference to the Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin, thought he had a right to choose, in illustration
of his co .n argument, whatever he pleased. It was quite true
General Mina had nothing to do with the borough of Evesham,
yet he feared that the tyranny proposed to be exercised there,
too much resembled that of the other pseudo-liberals.--( Hear,
and laughter.) If he abstained from-further detail, it was not
in consequence of what had fallen from the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin, but out of respect for the Chair, and be
cause he should he sorry to impede public business. The
Hon. Member, after apologizing to the House for the time be
had trespassed upon their attention, concluded by bringing up
his petition.

Sir W. FOLLETT presented a petition from the Mayor
and Corporation of Totnes, against the 97th clause of the
Municipal Reform
Mr. WILK S had to present a petition in opposition to
those petitions which had been presented by the Hon. Mem-
bers for Evesham and Exeter, from the inhabitants of Boston.
The prayer of the petition, and he wished his Majesty's Mi-
nisters were present to hear it, was—
" That your Petitioners express their high satisfaction that his
Majesty's MiListers have submitted to the consideration of your
Honourable House a Bill for the Reform of the Municipal Corpo-
rations of England and Wales, in which a remedy is provided for
the numerous evils, and enactments to correct or remove the various
abuses which the Commissioners of Inquiry, in their luminous Re-
port, have proved to exist in these bodies ; and your Petitioners
having long and justly complained of the corrupt state of the Mu-
nicipal body who rule in this borough to its great injury (which
has been partly detailed in a Petition, which on its presentation to
your Honourable Nouse, was ordered to be printed in the Votes,
and is fully confirmed by the evidence published by the Commis-
sioners in the Appendix to the Report above alluded to) hail with
pleasure the principle and details of the proposed measure.
" Your Petitioners therefore most respectfully and most earnestly
pray that your Honourable house will pass this important Bill,
also a similar one for Ireland, with as little delay as possible, and
without allowing its important details to be impaired or frittered
away ; so that a thorough Reform of our Municipal Institutions
may be effected and preserved—the councils thereof be respected—
the revenues applied for the public advantage instead of being pros-
tituted to private and party purposes—the burthen of local taxation
reduced—the character and morals of the people improved ;—and
finally, that the Municipal Magistracy may possess the esteem and
regard of the several communities over whom they maybe appointed
to preside."
He wished to call the attention of the House to the fact that
this petition contained the signatures of 89 freemen.—( Hear.)
Sie W. FOLLETT presented a petition against certain
clauses of the Bill From the freemen of Exeter.
Mr. A. TREVOR thought if the prayer its the petition
just presented by the lion. Member for Boston was acceded
to, it would take away the right of the freemen in a way that
would be positively disgraceful to a British House of
Commons.—( Hear.) It was neither more nor less than a direct
spoliation of men, against whom no insinuations had been
made, and no charges proved. If this were done, justice
would be but an empty name. He thought that many peti-
tions similar to that presented, and so ably commented upon
by the Hon. Member for Evesham, would be shortly laid
upon the table of the House, awl he hoped that the re-
Nesantatives would be instructed from the several h horowrD, 8
thoughout the country to fight it to the very last clause—
(hear)—and that they would exclude from it provisions which
It.! no more to do with Municipal Reform, than with the
Irish Clandestine Marriage Bill.
Mr. SINCL A IR said if these discussions were persevered
in •. the prese:ltaticiii of ever: p:tition, they would be obliged
to till the ilrA of January.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")

IS ORT ['WICK thought the j; -oiler time for tiiieussing
petitions was on the occaion of presenting them. The Hon.
Member was proceeding to address some further observations

to the House, but was interrupted by loud cries of " Oh ! " and
Spoke I"
The SPEAKER begged to observe that no permission had
been given by the House to make speeches on the presentation
of petitions. The understanding was that Hon. Members should
merely state the substance and prayer. Irregularities had oc-
casionally taken place, but unless when notice had been given
of bringing a particular petition under the consideration of the
House, long speeches should not be indulged in. If the prac-
tice could not be entirely suppressed, it should be confined
within reasonable bounds—( Hear.) The proper course would
be when a petition referred to any question under the consi-
deration of the House, to defer its presentation until the dis-
cussion on that subject came on.
NEW SOUTH WALES.
Mr. H. L. BUL WE R, after the observations of the
Speaker, had some doubts whether he ought to offer any com-
ments upon the presentation of a petition which came from a
very important-Colony. The petition was from New South
Wales, and was signed by about 6,000 of the free inha-
bitants, who prayed that that House would be pleased
to grant a Legislative Assembly for their Colony.--( Hear. )
He ( Mr. B.) would not take up the time of the House unne-
cessarily by observing upon the advantages of a representa-
tive body, but he should state a few circumstances connected
with the Colony. Its population amounted to 60,000, and its
revenue was 135,0001. per annum. Over this vast territory
and numerous population was placed a Governor, ex-
ercising almost unlimited authority, which was only
partially shared in by a small body, the great majority of
whom were chosen by the Governor himself. This was evi-
dently a most undesirable state of things, and he believed the
only objections to a Legislative Assembly were the alleged
impossibility of obtaining a proper representative body, and
the difficulty of obtaining a proper constituency. With re-
gard to the first objection, he (Mr. B.) should observe that
there were 120 persons in that colony acting as Magistrates,
who were of the very highest respectability, and capable of
filling any offices to which they might be appointed ; and with
respect to the constituent body, that might be a more difficult
matter to arrange, as it might be a question whether free
convicts should be admitted as a part of the constituency.
Even if they placed these persons altogether out of the ques-
tion, still there were enough of free settlers in the colony to
entitle it to have a House of Assembly. If that were granted
now, the advantage would be that the inhabitants would receive
it gratefully, and use it with discretion ; while, on the other
hand, if it were delayed, it would be given to a people who
would have lived under a sort of despotism, and of course
would have all the wild notions of liberty incident to such a
class.

The petition was brought up.
Sir G. GREY did not suppose that his Hon. Friend ex-
pected that he (Sir G. Grey) was then to state what were the
intentions of the Government with respect to this Colony. The
Act under which the Colony was at present governed would
expire in the session after that of 1836, which would render it
necessary to revise the whole question, and naturally it would
then come before Parliament. The Government had a great
desire to extend the institutions of this country to the Colony—
and would do so, in so far as circumstances would permit.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL had been requested to support the
prayer of this petition, which he did with much pleasure.
Mr. HUME was aware that the Act would terminate in a
year or two, but he was sure that it would not be satisfactory
to the inhabitants of the Colony to be told that they must wait
for two or three years for any redress. They were heavier
taxed than those of even England, and yet they had not the
slightest control over the expenditure.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Taking the free population, and the money raised,
it would be found that the tax upon each was 31. a year. They
submitted to this country that it would greatly content the
people if they had a House of Assembly of even fifty, in order
to have some little control over the expenditure, which was enor-
mous. There were salaries and appointments of every kind, and
shape, which could not give satisfaction to the people, unless
they had some share in the management of their own money.
Now when the House was giving every petty Corporation in
the Kingdom a control over their own funds and expenditure,
he trusted they would not deny the same boon to their fellow-
countrymen in another part of the world. There were
14 colonies in the West Indies, all of whom enjoyed a Legisla-
ture of their own, yet their population did not amount to that
of the Colony in question. Emigration► would increase
threefold, if the people only felt that they were going to a
country where they would have the advantage of a Civil Go-
vernment.
Sir H. HARDINGE requested the Hon. Member for
Leeds (Mr. Baines) to call the Hon. Member to order.—
( Laughter. ) If there were an understanding that speeches
should not be made on the presentation of petitions, it should
be observed on the one side as well as on the other.
Mr. HUME said the Gallant Officer had missed the line
of distinction. The Hon. Member to whom he had alluded
was making a three-quarters of an hour's speech upon a peti-
tion relative to a Bill then before the House, when the dis-
cussion was of course inconvenient.—(Hear, hear.) On
that petition tiere had been many and short speeches,
and that was, of course, a matter of convenience ; to the
House as it would save a specific motion upon the subject.
If something were not done all the Colonists would be in
England next year (Laughter) to represent their grievances.
In fact they would not allow themselves to be taxed continually,
unless they were permitted to enjoy the right of control over
taxation—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL regretted that his Majesty's Ministers
had given a distinct pledge to attend to the question
so early, because the Colonists ought to have time
to receive notice of the sympathy which prevailed in
this House towards them.—( Hear.) The fact was, the subject
must be fully discussed in the next Session, and a Bill must
be passed next Session, so that thus the entire subject must
come before the House. He was sure the entire feeling
on the part of the House would be to give the free
settlers all that they were entitled to claim, and when
they left this country, they did not leave their rights behind
them, but carried them with them, especially the right to
a Representative Assembly. He hoped also that Government
would pay attention to the distinction between free settlers and
the emancipationists which ought no longer to be continued.
An HoN. AIEbiBBR hoped that Government would also
direct its attention to the claims of other Colonies.
Sir H. HARDINGE agreed with the Hon. Member for
Middlesex that there were none of his Britannic Majesty's
subjects demanding more attention than their brethren of the
Colonies, and for this simple reason, that because, in his opi-
nion, the Reform Bill had disfranchised the Colonists who,
with the exception of the Hon. Member for Bath who repre-
sented Canada, had no representative in the House--( Hear,
and laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
think the last observation of the Hon. and Gallant Member
quite accurate. The very speech he had made himself,
as well as the remarks of the other Hon. Members, proved that
there were many quite as sensible to the claims of the Co-
lonists as the Hon. Member whom the Right Hon. Baronet
brought forward as the only colonial representative.—(Hear.)
Mr. WILKS contended that there was no Member of Par-
liament who miglft not be said to represent the Colonies of the
country.

Mr. FIUME Cifnsidered that the Colonies wore better repre-
sented now than tbrmerly.
Mr. H. BUL WE R bad not neglected to urge the point that
the revenues of the Colony were disposed of without any con-
trol by those from whom they were raised.
The petition was then laid upon the table.
WESTMINSTER PAVING.

The petition of the Householders of Regent-street, within
the parishes of St. James Westminster and St. George Hano-
ver-square, that they may be placed on an equality with occu-
piers of houses situated in the parishes of St. Marylebone and
St.. Martin, was referred to a Committee, consisting of the
following Members :
Por,:ttt, Sir 1,. Grote, G. O'Connell, D.
Bulwer, H L. Harvey, 1). W. Pattison,Vaines
Ilyng, George Hothouse, Sir J. C. Ponsonby, Hon. W.
clay, W. flume, Joseph Tulk, C. A.
Crawford, W. Humphery, J. Watley, Thomas
Dare, it. W. H. Lennard, T. B Whalley, Sir S.
Duncombe, T S. Lushington, Dr. Wood, Alderman
Evans, Colonel
IPSWICH ELECTION.
Lord J. RTTSSELL moved " That the Report of the
Ipswich Election
_Committee, as far as it related to Messrs.

Sewell, Blake, and Keith, and other parties accused, be read."
It was read by the Clerk accordingly.
Lord J. RUSSELL then proposed " that the following
Members form a Select Committee to inquire into the facts
connected with the late election at Ipswich :
Aglionby, H. A. Escourt, 1' G. 13 Hawes, 13.
Denison, Evelyn Fergusson, R. C. Miles, W.
Eastnor, Viscount Gladstone, W. E. Molesworth, Sir W.
Ebrington, Lord Wynn, itt. lion. C.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN complained that Irish Members were
so often excluded ; he admitted, however, that they had no
local interest in this question.
It was ordered that five be a quorum.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, it was ordered
that the House, at its rising, should adjourn till Monday.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL also proposed " That the House
should sit from twelve o'clock until three o'clock, on Tuesdays
and Thursdays, for the dispatch of Bills and business now be.
fore the House." He did not think it would be necessary, at
present, to sit at the same hour on Friday.
In answer to a question respecting two Irish Bills, the Linen
Trade Bill, and the Infant Property Bill,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it would not be possible
to proceed with them on Monday, as the Municipal Corpo-
ration Bill would not by that day have passed through the
Committee.

In answer to a question from Sir W. FOLLETT,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated that it was his
sanguine hope to be able to bring on the discussion of the Im-
prisonment for Debt Bill on Wednesday.
Captain POLHILL presented a petition from the Corpora-
tion of Bedford against the 63d clause of the Municipal Cor-
poration Bill, and praying that the trustees of charities might
be required to give in a qualification. The petition had parti-
cular reference to the Hertford Charity.

IRISH CORPORATIONS.
Lord MORPETH gave a notice regarding a Bill to reform
:rish Corporations, but for what day we could not ascertain.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATION BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
Clause 56, respecting charities, -being proposed—
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was a provision for
placing certain trustees, to be appointed by the Town Coun-
cils, in the situation of the present Corporations, and not for
giving to them any greater power than those Corpoiations now
stood possessed of Whether under th 9 present Corpora-
tions, or the Corporations to he created by this Bill, there
was a sufficient control over the funds of these charities or
not--laving aside the whole question of an intentional perver-
sion of the charities to private or party purposes—it was a
fact that the trustees appointed by those who bad the tnannr
merit of the funds did often, either from carelessness or ~once
tau: cause, entertain such a nlistalqn sense of their duty,