The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-04 00:00:00

His Majesty's present Ministers had never intrigued for office :
it had never entered into their minds to do so.—( Hoar, bear. )

He Mr. F.) should oppose the resolution, becatise he be-
lieved that it went to endanger the existence cf the, Pro-
testant Church in these kingdoms. His Majesty's _Ministers
under these circumstances, should boldly appeal to the people.
Cheers.) He anticipated from the people of England
such an expression of sentiment as would soon reduce the ma-
jority against Lie Majesty's Ministers.—( Hear, hear.) He did
not entertain such 'a bed opinion of the people of England as
to believe that they vn:ultl, in the event of a ,second appeal to
them, sanction a s:;otiation of the Church.—(Hear.) He was !
satisfied that they were fully able to appreciate the motives
which would dictate it. The Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir Ro-
bert Pcel) intended to carry out the instituti ms of the country
as far as they were susceptible of improvement, and the Right
Hon. Baronet was also making a manly stand in defence of the
prerogative of the Crown, and he was doing this not for his
own private gain or advantage, but for the benefit of his coun-
try. Whatever might happen, that Right Hon. Baronet
would have consecrated to him one of the proudest pages in
the history of his country. Having trespassed upon the atten-
tion of the House so long, he would now cheerfully resign his
place to Hon. Members more capable of filling it.
Mr. A. JOHNSTON said that he did not think justice had
been done to the Protestants of Ireland by lion. Members on
the Opposition side of the House. If du; Irish Church were
properly regulated it would prove itself to be strong and
efficient, and its Clergymen were good and zealous Christians.
lie considered that before they came to any conclusion as to
the appropriation cf the revenues of that Church they should
have more extensive means of information concerning it.
With respect to those funds he saw the greatest discrepancy
existing between the statements of Hon. Members on both
sides of the House, and he thought that when the country
considered that discrepancy, they would be very much asto-
nished at the vote come to last night. It was, therefore, im-
proper to legislate respecting these funds when such monstrous
discrepancies were urged as to their amount and existence.
For his own part he thought that Missionary Clergympn
should go about Ireland preaching the Gospel in the native
language of the people of that country, since there were
three .millions of people in Ireland who could not receive
instruction except through their own language.—(Cries of
Oh," from the Opposition.) He would ask Hon. Members
whether because the institution of the Church in Ireland were
abused they ought to be totally destroyed? He thought that
they ought to be rendered more efficient, and that would net
be done by the means proposed on that side of the House,
which went to strip them of their revenues. He regretted,
however, that the resolution of the Noble:Lord had been met
by a direct negative on the part of the Right Hon.. Baronet
the Paymaster of the Forces, because they would make the
country think that the present Ministry intended no Reform of
the abuses of the Church. He did not think the resolution
properly framed, for it might be so managed as to leave little
doubt of the intentions of those who supported it. By the

articles of the Union, it was stipulated tliai the Protestant re-
ligion should be maintained in Ireland. He did not think that
it should be kept up with its present abuses ; but in salutary
reforms he would go as far as any man. Nothing could be
more ridiculous than to be legislating about a surplus when it
was alleged on both sides that no surplus could arise for fifty
years to come. If there were any it might be applied to
purposes of education ; but not to such a system as :hat
introduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire,
since he was sure that the returns would prove that that system
was not so good as it was thought to be.—( Hear.) He did not
like the side wind by which Hon. Members wished to get rid
of the present Administration. If they had no confidence in
them, let them bring forward some substantive and constitu-
tional motion, and h would be ready to declare that he had
no confidence in the present Administration. He agreed with
those_ observations that had been made on the other side of
the House, that the Opposition were a mere rope of sand,
and that that would soon be seen. Let them look to that
Opposition, and they would see among them a large party
who had opposed the late Administration, and who were the
chief means of depriving it of power. He had not voted
either for or against the present resolution, but he partly
agreed with it, though he did not approve of the conclusion
to which it would lead.
Colonel CONOLL Y regretted that he had not been able
to speak previously in the debate ; but, coming from a Pro-
testant county in Ireland, and having heard the acrimonious
assertions against the Protestants of that country, he felt
himself bound to deny the greater part of those as-
sertions, and to refute them generally. The Protestants
of Ireland had much reason to complain of what had been
spoken of them by Honourable Members opposite during the
course of the last four nights debate. By them the Church
had been vilified, its revenues overrated, and the people of
Ireland excited to notions of spoliation. It was for such an
object that the resolution of the Noble Lord was brought for-
ward. His intention in rising was to strip the resolution of its
false colouring, and to represent it in the iniquitous and si-
nister garb in which it was really clothed. The pretended
motion was for the advantage of the education of the people
of Ireland, but it really had its source in the most gross and
iniquitous deception that had ever been palmed on the people
of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It was a motion of an interested
and insidious body—( Hear, hear, hear)—brought forward
to combine certain persons in that House in a most miser-
able coalition. It was brought forward to drive a dagger
into the breast of the present Administration—though that

was not avowed, and though its supporters dared not openly
admit it.—(Cheers.) Everything disgraceful and dishonour-
able to the human heart had been resorted to to deceive
Honourable Members, and to make them think that -it was
the interest of the people of Ireland they wished to promote,
while in reality the promoters of the motion had nothing
but their own sordid interests in view. When this was pro-
perly represented to the British nation, they Would despise
men who could listen to and become the dupes of such a de-
ception. But the people of his county should not be deceived
if they had a particle of -...l2,2rztancling, as long as he had a
voice to raise in or out of that House. E ve.y thing unfair
had been resorted to, to gild this most insidious question.
It was said that Ireland wanted justice. But the people of
Ireland would not be deceived by statesmen, who, in order
to promote their own objects, covered them .with the flimsy
garb of affection towards the people of that country. To
prove that affection, they' went back to the times of tlonry

VIII., raked up old grievances and abuses, and affected the
deepest sympathy for their fellow-countrymen. What were
theze pretended governors of Ireland going to do? They
were going to reject the real remedy for the people of Ire-
land, and substitute in its stead measures that would bring

them into power, and lay prostrate the law in Ireland:

The real evil connected with the Irish Church was the tithe
system, and from the management, or rather mismanage-
ment, of that, arose the grievances complained of. He
believed, however, that the Tithe Bill introduced by the
present Government would tend in a, great measure to
do away with the abuses of the tithe system. ( Hear.)
Why did Hon.- Members place obstacles in the way of this
Bill? No doubt it was their extreme love for Ireland which
induced them to perpetuate the evil against which they had
so often inveighed, and to withhold the remedy for it, while
. .

they adopted another course with the same show of sensibility
for the Irish people as before. This reckless determination
of some .Hon. Members to withhold the real remedy convinced
him, if indeed he wanted 'grounds for such conviction; that the
evils of L eland were the only wares with which they could
trade. Ireland wonted education. Such language was pre-
posterous, coming from a party which had invariably
resisted the diffusion of moral and religious education.
—(Loud cheers.) Ho was one who had for thirty years
exerted himself to promote scriptural education through-
out his own country. Hon. Members might deride him.
He would only say let them exert themselves as stre-
nuously and successfully as he had in the cause of education.

—( Cheers.) The good he had so effected was not by pre-
datory incursions on the public purse—!: A laugh from the Op-
position)—but by defraying the. expenses out of his own pocket.
He was more than compensated by knowing .that hii exer-
tions had in many cases been attended with the happiest
results ; and he wished that others had adopted a similar
course, instead of kec ping up that system of ignorance
and and- error by which the demagogues agitators had obtained

in Ireland such dangerous influence. But now these Gentle.
men stood forward and called for education, and such was thei.

love for their country that they could not wait for a surplus,
but must anticipate it by at least seventy years. A system of
education of which all sects and denomirc4tious were to partake
the benefit was now proposed by men who had heretofOre re-
sisted every attempt to enligke:l aid rescue the people from
their pitiable state of ignorance. But it. was a mere pretence,
a miserable subterfuge. A man must have been but a short

time in Ireland, and a still shorter time in the House of Com-
mons, who could not see through this despicable gloss of as-
sumed philanthropy and patriotism. It showed that Hon.
Members, in order t•a attain their ends, had been compelled to
throw off the incumbrances both of common truth and common

sense. Facts, figures, and indisputable calculations had all
been thrown overboard, and the principle of appropriating the
alleged million of Church property was put forth as the great
influencing principle. Why was a million constantly stated
as the amount of the Irish Church revenues, instead of the
actual wn, 450,0001. ?—( Hear, hear.) It was to excite the
cupidity, and produce that very clamour which some Hon.
Members would have it believed they desired to suppress.—
(Loud cheers.) With the love of order and peace on their
lips Hon. Members put forward this proposition with the full
knowledge that its effect would be to excite still greater cla-
mour, still greater violence, and still greater disagreement
than already prevailed in Ireland. With this knowledge, and
for ti;jr own purposes, they bring up the Eatablished Church
as a perma;;Qpt object of spoliation, and an endless source of
profit. It was tr.; that some Hon. Members chose to specu-
late en the probable increase of the Protestant Establishment
under this modern system of plunder; butt for himself he must
admit that he thought it very unlikely that the protestant Es-
tablishment would be extended or even maintained
while the line of demarkation was drawn in such fearful
colours before the door of the Protestant voter, and while the
most awful denunciations were levelled against any man who
presumed to differ in the slightest degree from one who was
the greatest despot in the British dominions, the Hon. and
Learned Member for the city of Dublin-40h, oh, from the
Opposition.) Ile would repeat the words—the greatest
despot in the British dominions.--( Oh, oh; from the Oppo-
sttiQn.) If murder was not despotism, then he was ignorant
of its nature.

Mr. ROEBUCK—I must call the gallant Colonel to or-
der. He accuse's the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin
of murder.—( A laugh.)
Colonel C ONO LL Y—Was there no instigation to murder ?
Mr. ROEBUCK—I must again rise to order. Now the
Gallant Colonel charges thz Hon. and Learned Member with
having instigate.d persons to commit rau-.7.der,
Mr, BERNAL said he hoped the Gallant Colonel Ivould
not think it necessary to continue that tone.
Colonel C 0 NOLLY said ho should bow to the suggestion
from the Chair. He only hoped that the consequences of

,
these instigations had been as unreal as his. assertion was eon-
shit Tod to cheering.) If any man presumed to
adept an indepsndent line of action in Irelani it was notorious
to ;vha.:h dangers ki exposed himself. When he keew this,
wl ai could he think of the pretence of good or _7er and regard
for the Church by which Hon. Gentlemen profes3ed to 1 e ac-
cur ted? These lofty :n-sertions, however, were but covers of the
in-.idious purposes of Hon. Gentlemen. Their policy was to do
tinat by a s. mater course which they dared not ed'hct in a manly
and straight-forward manner. Their conduct had been desig-
nated factious, and certainly it had every ingredient ef faction but
one, arid that was courage.—( Cheers and counter cheers.) Their
scandalous inspositions they_ had garnished with a show of phi-
lanthrophy and i.ublic principle, and this sorry deceit, this
barefaced eelusion, had entrapped 330 Members of the House
of Commons.—( Loud cheers.) Of the whole course which
had been adopted towards the Established Church he and his
countrymen-had ample cause to complain. For a sinister pur-
pose its Ministers had been vilified, its revenues exaggerated,
and the adherents to its creed contumeliously treated. The
proctedings of the. Protestants in reference to the Catholic
body had been most grossly misrepresented, although. it was
known and always admitted that in no -part of the country were
the Roman Catholics received with greater friendship and cor-
diality that bytheProtestants in the north of Ireland. —( Cheers.)
Were he to go over the mistatements of Hon. Gentlemen on
the other side he should trespass too long on the time of the
House. But he must remark upon the strange inconsistency
of the Hon. Gentlemen who in the last Session declared
their determination to discountenance all attempts to sever
the couriection between England and Ireland, leaguing with
men who were pledged to effect the repeal of the
Union, and coalescing with them in carrying a mea-
sure that must irretrievably
.diLeaken the bond by which
the two countries were united:slWhe conduct of Hon. Mem-
bers in taking a step which more than any other would lead to
the repeal of the Union was to him inconceivable. In sup-
porting the Church of Ireland they supported the Protestant
inhabitants of Ireland, arid would Hon. Members say that the
Protestants needed not support? Was it unknown to them
that from the weakness of the securities against murder and
outrage, numbers had been compelled to seek safety in a fo-
reign -land ?—( Hear.) To his own knowledge one thousand
unfortunate men had departed from the shores of their native
country. Some of them he entreated to remain, and what
was the answer ? " Can we walk the road in safety?"—
( Hear, hear.) Hon. Members said that the Protestant
Church must be limited .to the population ; but judging from
Fast events he thought that the people would not be allowed
to remain in the bounds of the Church. The encouragement
whieh would be given by-the success of this measure to the
enemies of good order was fearful to contemplate. It would
be a temptation to still further plunder, an aggravation of party
violence, an incitement to disturb, and a complete bar to do-
mestic tranquillity. Besides these circumstances he must
give his unqualified opposition to a measure which would be
attended with the most disastrous' results to this unfortu-
nate country, and which was now employed by Honourable
Gentlemen as the flimsy covering of a sinister political ob-
ject.—( Cheers. )
Mr. S. CRAWFORD (who was very indistinctly heard)
briefly addressed the House. ' He approved of the reduction
of the Church revenues, and hoped that the measure would
only be the forerunner of reforms not less necessary or impor-
tant. The extinction of tithes, and some remedy for the evils
of absenteeism were among the first of those reforms. Averse
as be was to the separation of Ireland from England, yet in
the endeavour to effect it lie should feel bound to concur, un-
less ample justice was speedily accorded to Ireland.
Colonel VERNER, after a few words in opposition to the
motion, which were utterly inaudible in the Gallery, said he
had put a question to the Noble Lord ( Lord J. Russell) some
time back, to which he had yet received no answer. He begged
now again to ask him, whether it was intended that a Church
endowed hereafter by a private person would be liable to the-
operation of any measure that might be founded on his reso-
tion 1

Lord J. RUSSELL declined at present going into any de-
tails. He had, however, no objection now to say that such en-
dowments as those mentioned by the Hon. Member were not
to come within the operation of the plan.
Sir R. BATE SON did not intend to have addressed the
House were it not for the allusion made to the county of
Down meeting. He had been a resident of that county
all his life", and notwithstanding the taunts that were threwn
out the other night by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Littleton) he was quite ready to identify himself with that
meeting, and with those who attended. A more constitu-
tional or a more decorous meeting was never held. It was
called together by the county because they had no confidence
in the Government of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—( Hear)
—because the Protestants had not fair play, because they saw
that whatever the Member for Dublin pleased to dictate
to that Government was the law.—( Cheers.) There never
was a Government more unpopular. " The Protestants of
the North had not fair play, not common fair play. That
meeting consisted of all that was most respectable an opulent
in the county, and it septuated without the least disorder. Not
a single drunken man left it.—(Laughter from the Opposition
benches.) He was not to be put down by sneers or taunts.
Every Nobleman in the county but two attended the meeting.
Not more than 800 signatures could be procured to the
counter petition, though hawked about to all the alehouses in

the couniy.
Mr. LITTLETON said the speech of the Hon. Gentle-
man consisted more of noise and declamation than argument.
He should recollect that assertion was not proof. He said the
general opinion throughout the north of Ireland was that even-
handed justice could not be obtained from the late Govern-
ment. Why, then, did he not last Session bring forward some
specific charge ? He invited—be challenged—him to do so
now. He begged to wit the Hon. Membr whether he was
one of four or five Magistrates who signed a requisition,
ting the Orange lodges of that country to come forward in aid
of the objects for which that meeting was assembled ?
Sir R. BATE SON—I never heard of that requisition, .and
lam not an Orangeman. Perhaps the charges which the
Right Hon. Gentleman challenged might yet be brought.—
(Cheers.) The Pight Hon. Gentleman was the last person
who should have alluded to .-2,17.'...ech in the sneering manner
he did.

Mr. Wvsr, and Lord CASTLESIAGH rose at the same time.
Lord CASTLE REAGH did not think it becoming in the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Littleton) to taunt as he did a
Member of that Honse, telling him that his speech was made
up of declamation. The taunt might come better from an-
other quarter than it did from the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Notwithstr.nding, all the efforts of the Member for Dundalk to
get up a counter petition to that agreed to by the county of
Down meeting, he was able to procure in the whole of ten
parishes no more than 4,500 signatures. The landlords of that
county, in many instances, took upon themselves to pay the
tithes, and when this had been done no grievance was felt. It
was said the meeting was an Orange meeting, but did the
Ofangemen appear there with a display of insulting supe-
riority ? Did they use taunts, or violence, or threats ? The
feelings of a great county were expressed there, but there were
no threats, there was no violence. As an Irishman who loved

his country, who had a large prospective stake in it, and none
at all here, he regretted that the present question had been
made the vehicle of party feeling. 'their proceedings upon
this question were watched by the Protestants of the north,
and would not, he feared, produce feelings of attachment to
England. He was sorry that the Noble Lord (Lord J. Rus-
sell), himself a Protestant, came forward as the organ of
the Catholic party in that House, and commenced the attack
upon the Church.—( Hear.) What was now passing proved
to him hew wrong they were when they consented to Catholic
Emancipation.—( Cheers.) They were told it would quiet the
country.—(A laugh from the Opposition.) Was it not so ?
( Cheers.) Were they not told so ? Was it for this the Pro-

testant gentry of Down were solicited to assist their Catholic
countrymen hi furtherance of that measure? He cared not
what party might be in power ; the good, the peace, and pros-
perity of his country, thus endangered, were far dearer to him
than their paltry resolutions—( Cheers.) They would do no
good. They would displease the Catholics because they did
not go far enough, and the Protestants because they went too
far. He feared nothing would content the former but the total
demolition of the Protestant Church in Ireland. Let this be
once done, and they would inevitably endanger the Church of
England also. He was now ready to raise the cry of " No
Popery," because he saw that for the interests of party they
were Pursuing a course destructive alike of the Irish and
eventually of the 'English Chureh—( Cheers.)
Mr. CI?, AWFORD explained.
Mr. WYSE believed the Noble Lord who had last spoken
._understood but little the real sentiments of the country, unless
in the north of Ireland, the cry of " No Popery " was entirely
extiect.—(Hear.) He denied that the powers or Privileges
granted to the Roman Catholics by the Emancipation Bill
were ever intended to be exercised for the subversion of
Church or State.—(Hear, hear.) This assertion was not to
be put down by-sneer or sarcaem, but by argument. If the
Catholic Relief Bill was intended to preclude the Members of
that House who'belonged to that persuasion from joining in
the discussions, it would be as well to dis'rinchise them at
once. They did not stand there as partisans, but as the honest
representatives of their constituents. The situation of Ire-
land at this moment was such, that unquestionably education
was the most likely means of raising that coultry from the de-
gradation in which she had for so many ages been sunk. By
the Act of Henry the Eighth, the Irish Clergy of that time
were bound to provide for the education of the people, by the
establishment of parochial schools. The Reformation of Ire-
land was nothing but a transfer of property from one religion
to another, and forcing upon the people a religion with which
the people were at war. It was the religion of an oligarchy, and
not of the people. It was not religion at all; it was not Pro-
testantism—it was Churchism. He had always supported in
Ireland the principle of providing sufficiently for the Pro-
testant Clergy and for the spiritual wants of that part of the
population professing that religion, but he could never
agree to the principle that larger funds should be applic d to-
wards those objects than old possibly be required. If Ca-
tholic Emancipation bad not worked out all that was expected
from it, the reason was because that measure had Lean too long -
delayed. However much be (Mr. Wyse) values] that measure,
he did not as a measure of state-policy consider it at rill com-
parable with a plan- of general education.
Mr. SHAW was not disposed to differ much from the Hon.
Gentleman opposite, that, if there were a surples of Church
property in Ireland, it might be beneficially applied to the
purposes of education, provided that education was under Pro- •
testant guidance. But his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel)
seeing that this was not the object of the resolution, had acted
in that manly straightforward course that had ever dis-
tinguished him,—(Loud cheers.) Perhaps he (Mr.
Shaw) might be charged with inconsistency. The Notile
Lord had quoted, on a former occasion, a speech which he
(Mr. Shaw) had been represented to have made, and had
stated that the speech had been quoted in the other House of
Parliament. Now all he could say was that he had never
seen any report of that speech, and when he heard of it for
the first time took Decision to-deify it at the time to the I

, Hon. Member for I,Vaterford.—( Hear.) He utterly denied
that the present system of education in Ireland, as established
by the late' Government, was at all successful, or likely to be
The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had in his
eorresponclence, as well as in his speeches, betrayed what were
his ultimate objects. In one of his letters he said that the
Whig Ministers had aerced to give up two fifths of the Irish
tithes; hut that Lord Grev's beeutiCul Order had put them on
again ; " hut," added the Ron. Member, " neat year we Shall
•be abe to do awav with the tithes entirely." This, then. was
the object of the Hon. and Learned Memi;er. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman on another occasion, had said that " as I
cannot buy the Clergy we must 'fight them." The Noble
Lord the Member for Devonshire who had moved the resolu-
tion had said, "do but pas:'7, this resolution and I will take
away from the Irish the charm of a repeal of the Union."
On the other hand, the Hon. and Learned Member for Dub-
lin had said that he only wanted to extinguish tithes, and then
he would call on the people of Ireland never to forget the ne-
cessity of an independent Legislature.—( Hear.) Here, then,
the House had the avowed object, the declered spirit, of the
Hon. and Learned Member. The Noble Lord had said that
a majority must preside in an Established Church, but the
question was, whether this was to be the majority of the whole
empire or of only Ireland. Mr. Grattan had said that of the po-
pulation of the two islands five to one were Protestants, and that
therefore Protestant ascendancy would he established even by
the emancipation of the Catholics ; and he accordingly, not-
- withstanding his advocacy of the Catholic cause, supported
the principle of a Protestant Established Church. If the
majority of Ireland were alone to be taken, why not, by a
parity of reasoning, dismember the whole empire, and give
to districts and counties —to Lancashire, for instance--the
Church of the majority ? It had been said that all the evils
that. Ireland laboured under, were to be attributed to tithes.
This he would totally deny. The whole history of Ireland
proved the reverse. He denied that tithes had been the
ground of the disturbances in Ireland, though they had often
been made the pretext. Even up to 1826, there was a com-
mandment amongst the Catholics enjoining the payment of
tithes; and ill every catechism 'the-re was an injunction to the
same effect. Tithes, therefore, had been made the pretext
of outrage, and the Protestant clergy were driven to seek
that peace and protection in foreign countries which they
could not find at borne. Of the lower orders, within the last
few years, more than 150,000 of the Protestant population of
Ireland had been driven to emigrate from Ireland.—( Hear,
hear.) These were the very flower of the Irish population.
There were a body of men who held up the light of truth
amidst the surrounding darkness.—(Oh, oh I from the Op-
position, and cheers from the Ministerial benches.) As resi-
dent men of property, as country gentlemen, as kind neigh-
bours, as dispensers of charity, as examples of forbearance
and of the amenities of life, these men were exemplary ; and
yet the present measure would remove them, and with them
the Peotestant clergy, and thus stop the civilization which
they diffused, and -which the proposers of the present resolu-
tion said that they wished to introduce--( Hear)—amidst the
great waste of ignorance and barbarism.—( Hear, hear.) The
question before the Committee was not a question of degree.
It was a specific question. It resolved itself simply into this,
was there to be in• Ireland a Protestant Established Church or
not ?—( Hear, hear.) He admitted, and Ireland would feel,
the power of Parliament to make the change now proposed,
but he totally denied the right. If the House dismembered
the Protestant Established Church he warned it that the dis-
memberment of the United Kingdom would be a necessary
consequence.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He would despise himself
if he-could raise the cry that the Church was in danger for any
party-purposes, but he should despise himself still more if, out
,of fear of such an accusation, he should hesitate to say that he
felt that the Church was in danger, great anti imminent dan-
ger.—( Cheers.) He implored the people of England to pro-
tect the people of Ireland from the consequences ; and he would
call upon them to remember what their forefathers of old had
suffered to establish the reformed faith of the Gospel—the faith
for which their ancestors had bled and suffered. a The Hon.
Mernber sat down amidst loud cheers.
Mr. RICHARDS moved, that.after the words of the reso-
lution, "the religious and moral education of the people with-
out distinction of religious persuasion," there be added these
few words, " and to no other secular purpose whatever." • He
would not divide the Committee, but lie asked the amendment
of the Noble Lord, the Member for Devonshire as a favour, in
order to satisfy the religious scruples of himself and of others
who had supported him on the previous evening.
tord J. RUSSELL thought the amendment altogether
superfluous.
Dr. BO WRING contended that England was the last
country in Europe that had adopted the principles of reform-
ing the Church. In Holland the Clergy did not receive from
the people more than one-twentieth of what was exacted from
the Irish by the Established Church. France in its State
provision for Catholics, Protestants, and Jews, exacted only
one-twelfth, and in fact in the principle now before the
Committee, England had been preceded by even Portugal and
Spain. • -
Lord SAND ON had heard nothing that could instruct him
Low the Irish people were to be reconciled to tithes by the
carrying of the resolution before the Committee. He was
willing to admit that the State had the power to deal with the
revenues of the Church; but lie at the same time thought
that such a right ought not to be exercised save in an extreme
case. From the period of the Reformation down to the pre-
sent time the people bad been accustomed to regard the pro-
perty of the Church as sacred; but if that property were now
to be devoted to other than ecclesiastical purposes, was it
likely that the right of any species of property would • be long
respected.—(Load cries of " Hear, hear, liezne"). This lie
believed was the first time that an attempt had been made to
bring the rights of property into discredit, for that would be
the inevitable result of the course they were now taking,. The
Noble Lord even if he took a sum of 200,0001. for effecting
objectathmeonath
ie
clergyw•hich he had in view, would have them believe
that there would remain nearly 600,000/. to be distributed
of the Establishment ; but his (Lord San-
don's) Right Hon. Friend or, the other hand asserted that
this could not be the case, inasmuch as those revenues did not
exceed 459,000/. Here was a dilemma in which the Noble
Lord was placed, and how had he escaped from it ?—( Hear. )
The fact, however, was, that the Noble Lord, and those who
jrt'S'.l this resolution were dealing with a mere supposi-
tion ; they were, sad: t, providing for the appropriation of a
surplus which had no existence but in th e•en imagination.
—( Hear.) As the principle contained in this resolution ens
not only new but such as had never before been thought of, he.
without expressing any opinion as to the power of Parliament to
interfere with the revenues of the Church, felt no hesitation
whatever in giving it his most decided opposition.--( Hear,
hear, and cries of " Divide, divide.")
Mr. BR OTHE RTON observed that it was now past twelve
o'clock, and therefore moved that the Chairman should report
progress, and ask leave to sit again.—( Cries of " Divide,"
and " Adjourn, adjourn.")
Mr. BE RNAL having pitt the qUestion of adjournment,
Mr. El AWES said that the Noble Lord had brought a
serious charge against those who sat on that (the Opposition)
side of the House. He said they meant to secularize the pro-
perty of the Church, which had been held sacred from the
period of the Reforniation down to the present time. But
was the Noble Lord justified in advancing such a charge with
the evidence furnished by the perpetuity Fund, which was ori-
ginally Church property, before his eyes ? He (Mr. Hawes)
was, however, prepared to contend that -Church property was
the property of the State, and that Parliament bad a right to
deal with that property in any way it plectsed. If there was a
surplus beyond what was necessary for the maintenance of the .
Church, could it be pretended, for a single moment, that Par-
liament
had not a right to apply that excess to useful purposes ?
When this resolution was adopted it would then be time enough
fo ascertain whether a surplus existed or not.--n( Renewed cries •
of " Adjourn, adjourn," and "Divide, divide.")
Lord SANDON and Mr. llnwEe mutually explained.
The House then divided on Mr. BROTHERTON'S motion for
reporting progress. The numbers were—

140
178
Majority ,
During the exclusion of strangers,
Colonel SIBTHORP moved (as we understood) that the
Chairman should vacate the Chair, but without reporting pro-
gress; and, On our return to the Gallery, we found
Sir R. PEEL addressing the Committee—An immediate
decision may, I admit, be approved of by a majority of those
now present; but I must put it to the House whether it is not
due- to-the constituencies of the Hon. Members who still wish
to speak to allcw them an opportunity of obtaining a hearing?
—(Hear.) I have no doubt tint it is the anxious, desire of
many of the constituent bodies throughout the country that
their representatives should express their sentiments on this
important occasion, and I can answer that it is the wish of an
Hon. Friend of mine, who is not now in his place, to have an
opportunity of delivering his opiniolas before this debate closes.
As far as I am personally concerned I could wish that the pro-
ceedings on this resolution shoUld terminate to-night, but,
impression that they
etleeir sentiments.
seeing that there are not now present more than halfesp ethciealnlyumas-
ber cf Members who voted last night, I think it would not be
v.,quiteoatnl
lyd foabfiet;
omc:Nl,lemadvee.atnog
gone
ipldepeoacri%tlstiai
ttylinnodtfehrdeeitrchl
eaarbi snegn
—( Hear, hear.) Conside..ing„ however, that this debate has
lasted five nights I must acknowledge—and in this •I think the
Haase will agree with me—that we have heard quite enough
upon the subject—( Hear, and a laugh)—but still, as it is de-
sirable that we should, if possible, attach confidence to our de-
cision, I think it only right that every one who may wish to
speak should be allowed a fair hearing.—(Hear.) I do not
mean by this to. express any opinion but merely to offer my
advice; and, although lam free to admit that it would be more
convenient to come to a decision at once, I still think upon the
whole we will best consult the general wish by -allowing all
parties
RUSSELL was ready to admit that they ought to
ha
who wished to speak before they came to a de-
cision.rstill he must say that a majority 6138 was, in his
mind,
of the course which he had taken of going into
a Committee on his resolution that evening. No doubt a
great number of Members were absent; but it was Ms belief
hear
d everyfbea juci
decisive play.—( Hear, hoar.) -
one
Lord
that they had either made up their minds not to vote on the
present occasion or paired off. Having said thus much he
would only add that ho had no objection to agree to the ad-
journment of the debate, in order to afford any Gentleman
who might yet wish to speak a hearing—(Hear)—but then it
should be .understood that it was to be resumed on Monday
evening.
Mr. BORTIINVICK moved that the House should ad-
journ.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the Hon Member for
Evesham's motion was not quite regular, pending the motion
of the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln. He did not
mean to object to the adjournment of the debate, and there-
fore he hoped the Hon.. and Gallant Member for Lincoln
would not persist in the course which he had taken.—( Cries
of" Divide, divide.")
Mr. BORTHWICK, on the part of the junior Members of

rorthe-maion.
Against ;t