The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 14, 1835.

approved of the whole of the foreign policy of the late Go-
vernment—as they showed that, in his opinion, that policy had
alienated from Great Britain the great military monarchies of
Europe—that in his opinion, by revolutionary crtisl's at home
we had endangered our alliance with other nations--with these
opinions, so declared and known by every act (if he might
call words acts) of the Noble Lord, could it be said that
the Noble Lord was the most proper individual to be
selected for such a duty? It would be recollected that
the Right Honourable Baronet opposite, in his own mani-
festo to the electors of Tamworth, and also in the King's
speech, and again in his speech explanatory of his policy,
gave them to understand that though he did not feel him-
self called on to give an opinion as the foreign policy of
his predecessors, still he would say that he meant gene-
rally to adhere to it. On what principle, then, could this
nobleman be sent as ambassador to St. Petersburgh ?
( Cheers.) Why, if they must send him out ambassador,
did they not send him to one of those monarchies of whose
friendship he was so chary ?—( Cheers.) Why was he not
sent to Vienna? Why send him to that court where it was
almost impossible that he should do good, and almost impos-
sible but he would do harm ? Would not foreign powers be
likely to consider this appointment as indicative of the opi-
nions of the Government of this country ? If there was a
court to which the Noble Lord ought not to have been sent, it
was the Court of St. Petersburgh. He had expressed him-
self decidedly of opinion that the Poles had been guilty of re-
bellion. Surely, then, he was not a fit person to go to the
Court of St. Petersburgh, unless it was manifest that such
was the opinion on which he ought to act, or which, if he
did act upon it, was the opinion of this country ? The
Right Honourable Gentlemen seemed to be alarmed for
the prerogative of the King; but he would take the liberty
of saying, that though an Ambassador was the Ambassador
isf the King, it was true, yet he was sent out to act for
the interests of the country—(Cheers)—and his appoint-
ment was as much questionable on this head as that of
any Minister of the Crown. He protested solemnly
against that hint thrown out by the Right Honour-
able Gentleman at the conclusion of his speech. He pro-
tested against this motion being considered as the slightest
infringement of the prerogative of the Crown, or any exten-
sion of the privileges which the representatives of the people
had a right to exercise.—( Cheers.) Anxious as they ought
to be in this House for the honour of England, and that the
interests of the country should be properly represented to the
more powerful of our allies, they had a right to say that the
choice which the Right Hon. Baronet had made, in the ap-
pointment of one of the country's most influential servants
abroad, was such as it could not approve. The Right Hon.
Gentlemen charged Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House
with a disposition to object to all his appointments. Had
they objected to the appointment for Paris—to Lord Cowley ?
Had they objected to any diplomatic appointment ? He did
not know how many had taken place, but he knew of no ob-
jections but to this case. Then there were the law appoint-
ments also ; had any one on his side of the House whispered
an objection to them ? The Right Hon. Gentleman must ex-
cuse him for saying that they were not so blind or besotted, that
they were not so forgetful of what they owe to their characters
or to the interests of the country, as to object to anything mere-
ly because it was proposed by the Right Hon. Gent. The
Right Hon. Gentleman's memory was a very good one, and they
sometimes, in this House, suffered from it.—(A laugh.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman would not deny, that not many
sessions ago he owed his maintenance in office to the sup-
port given to him by the Opposition side of the House. But
it was unnecessary to carry his memory much further back
than to the debate of a few nights ago.—( Hear, hear.) If he
knew any thing of himself or his friends, it was not merely be-
cause a measure was proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that the measure was objected to by them.—( Hear, hear.)
Certainly not—though, at the same time, he agreed with the
Right Hon. Gentleman that the cant of measures and not men
was one of the most mischievous and foolish, and ought surely
by this time to have been exploded. He did not know of any
thing in particular that could be added to what had been said
by the Hon. Gentleman who preceded him as to the opinions
entertained by the Noble Lord. They were not flying opi-
nions, to be collected only 133 one word or by one speech, but
opinions known to be concealed by him from none, and for his
entertainment of which the Noble Lord stood pre-eminent.
This being so, was he a fit man to be sent to the Court of
St. Petersburgh? If the Right Hon. Baronet at the head
of the Government did persevere in this appointment, the
House of Commons would feel it incumbent to take such
steps as would express its opinion upon it.—(Loud cheers.)
The Right Honourable Baronet deprecated such discussions
as the present, in regard to the conduct of his Majesty's
Government ; and said, it would be better for some Hon.
Gentleman to come forward with a motion expressive of want
of confidence, and for their removal, and take the sense of the
House upon it. He said, too, that that course would certainly
be better. He did not think less of the Ministry because that
was not done. The Right Hon. Baronet said, " Remove us ;
but do not, by attacking us upon such questions as the present,
only damage the power of the Executive." He said it was
cruel so to put the Right Hon. Baronet to inconvenience.
The Hon. Members for Lancashire (Lord Stanley) and Cum-
berland ( Sir James Graham) had contrived to play their parts
so as to have the Government in their fingers.—(Laughter
and cheers.) But the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Government said, " Put an end, if you please, to our Govern-
ment by a vote of want of confidence, but do not let the King's
power be injured by attacks upon the appointments of ambas-
sadors : devise," said he, " some direct mode of ridding your-
selves of the Government." Some, however, thought that when
the House placed you, Mr. Speaker, in that chair, that it had
spoken its want of confidence in the present Government ; but
it would not do.--( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman showed himself, after that vote, as ready for the
fight as ever; and that he was able to do so, no man was
more sensible than himself, and he was not sorry to have the
pleasure of hearing the Right Hon. Baronet speak. Then
there was the amendment on the Address. At one of their
secret meetings, when they were concocting the amendment,
it had been asked whether he thought the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet would resign if it were carried ; he had said, " Put in
this (alluding to some part of the amendment on the Address)
and he must resign."—(Laughter and cheers.) Then at last
a friend of his had come forward and said " Put in something
about the dissolution, and if carried, no man of honour and
feeling can continue longer in office—(Laughter)—the doom
of the Right Hon. Gentleman would be sealed." Well—the
amendment had been carried—certainly by a smaller majority,
from casualties, than the question of the Speaker. Previous
opinions of the course of the Right Hon. Baronet would take
were justified. He said he would not resign—he would perse-
vere to the last. But he would ask Hon. Gentlemen when
would the last come ?—( Cheers.)— He only mentioned this
to show that they had done their best to ture out the Right
Hon. Baronet, but he did not know when the " last" would
arrive—when the Right Hon. Baronet would admit the day
had arrived. Now, to-night, he did not know whether it
struck the House how Ministers can longer sit upon their
benches. Here was the first diplomatic appointment made—
and by whom ? for the question must come. It was made by
no less a person than the great man at the head of foreign
affairs. Hon. Gentlemen knew that appointment was owing
to the accident which put the Right Hon. Baronet abroad at
the time when he, with the late Ministry, was put out of office.
—( A laugh.) It was the appointment of the Duke of Wel-
lington as the head of the Foreign Office. But though the
Duke of Wellington had originated the appointment, it had
been sanctioned by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Government ; and being so sanctioned by him, he must be re-
sponsible. Of the Duke of Wellington—considering his
splendid services to his country—it would be presumptuous in
him to speak in terms other than those of respect ; but he had
made the first appointment—it was the first act of the Noble
Duke, and the Right Hon. Baronet came to defend it in that
House. But in his opinion it had not been defended at all.—
( Cheers.) Not a word had been said which would justify it ;
and from that quarter to which the appointment owed its ex-
istence came its condemnation. For this appointment the
Government suffered itself to be disgraced, and dragged
through the mire—an appointment made by the Noble Duke
who was the father of the Government, and to whom the
country looked as its real head. It was no fault of
their's (the Opposition) that the Ministers were not
removed. They did what they could to effect it.
Hon. Gentlemen had suggested another course last night than
the one adopted, and the 'Right lion. Baronet seemed angry
at the change of the plan of operation for the night ; but the
Right Hon. Baronet had most reason 'to be angry with the
present course, for he had no doubt a debate on the question
of shortening the Supplies would have been more agreeable
to him than the present discussion ; but the votes of that
House were ineffectual in removing the Right Hon. Baronet,
as, if they were to resolve upon addressing the Crown, the
Right Hon. Baronet would persevere. The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet wished them to take a special mode of expressing their
want of confidence without damaging the Ministry by indirect
means. Would it be sufficient if they moved an address to
the Crown that the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) should
not go on the proposed embassy ? Would the Right Hon.
Baronet put his
.situation and retiring upon that issue ?
( Cheers.) The Right. Hon. Baronet would not do it. But
the time must come, when he must retire ; and it only de-
pended on those gentlemen who occupied a portion or section
of the House opposite—(pointing to the benches occupied by
Lord Stanley and Sir James Graham). It struck him as sin-
gular that Ministers of the Crown should continue holding
office upon the tenure they held it by.—(Hear.) A word from
the Noble Lord ( Stanley) would deprive the Ministers of
office, that is, if the Right Hon. Baronet intended to defer to
to the expression of the opinion of a majority, or unless he
had made up his mind to make another appeal to the
people.—( Cheers.) if what he bad taken the liberty
of suggesting was really the case, and it was unplea-
sant to put it to the Right Hon. Baronet in the way he
had been obliged to allude to it, he could only say that
the Ministry stood in a situation hardly compatible
with the dignity of their station. The Right Hon.
Baronet trusted too much to party feeling and support. He
knew that circumstances would happen which would induce
the Noble Lord ( Stanley) and his friends to decide and join
their old friends. When that moment came, the Right Hon.
Baronet's career would be terminated, and he knew it.—
( Cheers.) He had spoken on topics which were not in imme-
diate connection with the question, but he had been drawn aside
in consequence of what had fallen from the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet at the head of the Government. He had endeavoured
to follow him through those topics at a humble distance ; he
had endeavoured to touch upon the various points which had
been urged in support of the appointment. He regretted
that the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed his determination
to persevere in the appointment of the Noble Marquis (Lon-
donderry), and he trusted that that House would also perse-
vere in procuring his rejection.—( Cheers. )
Sir E. KN ATCHBULL trusted that he should be able,
in a few brief words, to exonerate himself from the charges
so unfairly and so untruly brought against him. First, as to
what passed between him ,and Lord Grey's Administration.

When Lord Grey's Government existed, Lord Palmerston,
at thee, instane of the lkoble Earl, had waited tsn liirii
( Sir E. Knatchbull) with a proposition to join the Ad-
ministration, which he declined to do. He, however,
stated he wished them well, and expressed a hope that
they, in any essential reform which they might introduce,
would adhere to the principle of conservation, as far as
regarded the ancient institutions of the State. That was
all that passed between him and the Noble Lord on the
ruhjett. The second charge against him was contained in the
allusion to his vote on the question of the malt tax. He was
taunted with having voted against his pledges on that occasion.
What was the fact ? He had given no pledge whatever on
the subject.---( Hear, hear.) And not only did he give no
pledge, but when asked his opinion on it in the presence of
7,000 electors, he had declined entering into any explanation
of them, stating that the question was one so intimately con-
nected with other interests that he should reserve himself until
it came before the consideration of Parliament.—( Hear.) He
had to complain that the most unfair practices had been re-
sorted to by the opposite side of the House to impugn the cha-
racter of the Administration, individually as well as generally.
Misrepresentation, distortion of opinions, and other objec-
tionable means were not stopped at. For instance, the Hon.
Baronet the Member for the East Riding of Yorkshire was
reported to have used the following observation in re-
ference to both the Government of which he ( Sir E. K.)
was a Member and of himself individually. The Hon. Ba-
ronet, after alluding to the unfitness of the former, went on
—Gentlemen, I ask you what are the principles of the pre-
sent Administration ? How are you to judge of an Adminis-
tration but by the character of the individuals composing it ?
Yet here we have the notorious Sir E. Knatchbull, Secretary
at War, who made use of the following expressions in a
speech at the election for West Kent.—l am a known and
determined Tory—the individual whom Lord Grey asked to
join his Government.—(A laugh, and Hear.) I hold every

man an enemy to his country who will not join in upholding
the institutions of our ancestors, as they have been handed
down to us, perfect and unimpaired Now he ( Sir E. K.)
could assure the House, and the Right Hon. Baronet who
preferred the charge against him, that there was not one
word of the quotation true ; for that his sentiments, uttered
on that occasion, were of a diametrically opposite character.
—( Hear.) He hoped, therefore, that when the lion. Baronet
quoted him again, he would take a little more care to be ac-
curate. The Right lion. Baronet opposite ( Sir J. C. Hob-
house) had said that he was not a party to the negotiations
which had been entered into with him ( Sir R. K.) and the
Government of Earl Grey ; and in stating this he only stated
the fact. The Right Hon. Gentleman was not then a Mem-
ber of that Administration, as Lord Grey at that time had
no need of hi§ assistance. It was subsequently to it that he
was appointed Secretary at War, and rejected by the electors
of Westminster. With respect to the appointment of Lord
Londonderry he ( Sir E. Knatchbull) begged to say a very
few words. He had no acquaintance whatever (so we un-
derstood him to say) with that Noble Lord, and therefore
could not have any personal feelings to influence his opinion
of his fitness. But he was bound to conclude, from his know..
ledge of the probity, patriotism, and experience of his Noble
and Right Hon. Colleague in office, that the appointment
was made on the safest grounds—the competency of the in-
dividual for the duty he had been selected to perform, and
the public good. In all the debate not a single charge had
been substantiated against the Noble Marquis; and those that
were made were unworthy of credit, inasmuch as they were
entirely founded upon reports of the proceedings in another
place, and given only in one publication. One word more,
and he would have done. An Hon. Member had asked him
how he could reconcile it to himself to join the present Admi-
nistration after his denunciation of their conduct on the Catho-
lie Question? He should answer him. The Catholic Ques-
tion had been long settled ; and if a political difference which
existed five or six years since were to be always remembered
and acted upon, it would for ever exclude men from serving
their country by precluding them from taking office with or
becoming reconciled to their former opponents on any subject
whatever.--( Cheers.) He hoped his explanations were satis-
factory to the House.
Sir J. C. HOB HO USE explained.
Sir G. STRICKLAND certainly did select the Right
Hon. Baronet as a sample of the present Administration, be-
cause he was one of the best known and most honourable
among the individuals composing it. With respect to the
quotation put in the mouth of the Right Hon. Baronet, he had
got it in the newspapers, and he thought from all he had heard
and seen of him it was likely to be a correct expression of his
sentiments. The Right Hon. Baronet had, however, denied
its accuracy, and he was bound to believe it did not. His ( Sir
G. Strickland's) experience in the House was small, but he
had been in it long enough to observe the contention of par-
ties and to ascertain the sentiments of some individuals. He
had been a Member of that Parliament which effected Reform,
arid he could not help remembering that every clause, every
paragraph, almost every line of the Bill was most strenuously
and indefatigably opposed by the Right Hon. Baronet.
Sir E. eN A TCHB UL L—l was not in that Parliament
at all.—(Laughter, and great cheering.)
Sir G. STRICKLAND was fully aware that the Right
Hon. Gentleman was not in that Parliament. But every
question which related to the great measure of Reform—
(Cries of No, no, Order, Oh)—he had always understood
that the Right Hon. Baronet was in opposition to every
measure of Reform.--( Cries of No, no, and Oh.) The
Right Hon. Baronet had opposed the Bill at large, and every
part of it; and his sentiments were universally known to be
against it. It was not for him ( Sir G. Strickland) to attack
the characters of those public men who were longer in Par-
liament than himself, but if he recollected aright there was no
individual in the House at the time Catholic Emancipation wa.F.,
passed who opposed it more strongly than the Right Hon.
Baronet.—( Cries of Oh, oh.) Under these circumstances he
thought he was justified in the mistake he had made in attri-
buting the report in the newspapers to the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet as his real sentiments.—( No, no.) He wished to set
himself right, however, with the Right Hon. Baronet, for
whom personally he had the greatest respect. The expressions
" the notorious Sir Edward Knatchbull" were not his. He
had never made use of them.
Lord E BRING TON did not think that any Gentleman in
that House would think that the character of Earl Grey would
suffer from what had been said against him.—( Hear.) The
character of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite he was ready to
acknowledge stood equally clear. The Right Hon. Baronet,
however ( Sir Edward Knatchbull) had stated that in declin-
ing the offer of office made to him by the Noble Earl he
wished him success, not only in the formation of his Govern-
ment, but in the prosecution of his plans.--( Cries of " No,
no," from the Treasury Benches, with an explanation by Sir
Edward Knatchbull across the table, that was inaudible in the
Gallery.) He had understood the Right Hon. Baronet to
say that he had wished the Noble Earl success in the prosecu-
tion of his plan of Reform. Notwithstanding this wish the
Right Hon. Baronet had taken his leave of Reform, and had
entered that House with an assurance of a determined hos-
tility against his Noble Friends, as great as that entertained
by any Honourable Member on that side of the House.
He had felt most anxious that the changes effected in the
foreign policy of the late Government should not be
changed back again, and he now felt the greatest appre-
hension as to the effect of the appointment of the Noble
Marquis. If, in spite of what had now taken place in that
House, his Majesty's Ministers should persevere in this ob-
noxious and unpopular appointment, he trusted other pro-
ceedings would be resorted to, and that the Opposition in
Parliament would assume a more direct and positive form.
Hon. Members opposite had asserted that no specific charge
had been made against the Noble Marquis. He had no-
thing to urge against the private character of that Noble
Lord, but he would say that there was not an individual in
the country—that there was not a single individual em-
ployed
in the diplomatic service—whose appointment to this
embassy could have given such strong and universal dis-
satisfaction.

Lord DUDLEY STUART considered that the appoint-
ment was most unfortunate and ill-advised. Many persons,
both within the walls of Parliament and without, who ap-
proved of the principles of the present Administration, did
in their hearts consider the appointment as the most unfor-
tunate which the Government had as yet made. If he
had wished to turn Ministers out of their places he should
have rejoiced at this selection of the Noble Marquis ; but
as he had no such wish, and considered it as no part of
his duty, he was free to lament the imprudent step they
had taken. He was glad that the Right Hon. Baronet
had defended the Noble Marquis from using the words
that had been attributed to him, for he was well assured
that all England felt that the Poles were not rebels, but a
gallant people using every justifiable exertion for the reco-
very of their rights and liberties. Their resistance to
Russia was not only their undoubted right, but one of
their most imperative duties. He knew not what kind of
unfortunate inspiration had seized the Noble Duke when he
made this appointment, for. it had been considered as most dis-
creditable to him throughout the whole country. Could the
Noble Duke have found no man but the Noble Marquis for the
situation, when his opinions were so well known to be hostile to
the unhappy Poles. He had heard the Right Hon. Baronet
the Chancellor of the Exchequer say with pleasure, that it was
not to be inferred from the appointment of any man that the
Government intended to pursue an unjust or illiberal policy.
He hoped that the Minister to Russia, whoever he might be,
would be instructed to protest in the most energetic manner
against the horrible conduct of Russia towards the Poles. The
Russians had had the horrible atrocity to disregard all their
treaties as well as their amnesty to the Poles, and when a noble
Pole who had returned to his country reminded General Pas-
kewitsch of the Emperor's amnesty, the General's reply was,
" The amnesty is for Europe, and Siberia for you." Even
now there were advertisements published in Warsaw for tenders
to transport the Polish children to Siberia. This was done in
contempt of England, and had any smaller power than Russia
treated this country in a similar way in a case in which she
had by treaty a right to interfere, the conduct of the British
Government would have been very different. There had been
an opportunity of settling the question without a drop of
bloodshed, but that had unfortunately been allowed to pass.
Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Government would
make the strongest protests in favour of the Poles, and
that the House would be put in possession of all the facts re-
lating to the conduct of Russia towards Turkey.
Colonel E VA NS rose, amidst cries of " Question, question."
This appointment was another instance of the violent contrast
between the acts and the professions of Ministers. If any
part of the speech from the Throne were explicit it was that
which professed to follow up the policy of the late Ministers
with respect to foreign States. This' policy was intimately
,onnected with the establishment of two of the Governments in
the south of Europe, and yet the Noble Lord had denounced as
illegitimate all the Sovereigns of the south of Europe with
whom England was in alliance. The Noble Lord had de-
clared their rights to the Throne to be invalid, notwithstanding
those rights had been formally recognised by the British Go-
vernment. The Noble Lord had spoken in decision of the

ftigal; lie had declared that the usurper, t e
thera traitor, Don
of
the
was fidiTicign Of Spain, and that
Queen of Spain W6fB not to be supported, and
Mid ought
which
rights of the Sovereigns of Fance, Belghuntit, SitparinD,oaoncd
aProior;
fleeted so much honotir •oh •• ? It was not much
Who did not recollect the Holy Annum... "--1. that
tyoe tt
ht ellicsrwedaisttol fC t nh
ea nR
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a'ostinte:
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)-
T 1 had ever seceded to that Alliance, but he every had latterly
seen the necessity Of viittidfaffirtg fretu it; The Quadruple
Treaty had afforded him the means of doing so, and file Speech
from the Throne had not only professed an adhesion to the
Quadruple Treaty, but had taken credit for having formed a
supplement to it. This had appeared as a proof that Ministers
were not only professing but acting up to their professions, and
now they were sending out an Ambassador who had denounced
the Quadruple Treaty over and over again. This was tanta-
mount to a declaration of war against the people, or to an ex-
posure of an utter infidelity on the part of the Government
to their engagements. He hoped that Ministers would not
persevere in th appointment.
Mr. H. L. BUL WER, amidst cries of " Question," vehe-
mently denounced the appointment of the Noble Marquis.
Mr. E WART said that it was proper on occasions to recol-
lect the sayings of great men, and he thought that an appro-
priate opportunity of quoting the text of the Right Hon.
Baronet, who laid it down that " not measures but men" was
to be the consideration ; and this text the Right Hon. Bart.
laid down, even in opposition to the leading article of the
Times, which proved its devotion to the cause of freedom by
its support of the Right Hon. Baronet's Government. He
did not think that it was necessary to make any graver charge
against the Noble Marquis who was the subject of that night's
discussion than that which had been admitted by the Right
Hon. Baronet, namely, his opposition to the rights and inte-
rests of Poland. He looked upon the letter of General Sebas.
tiani to be nothing more than a mere commonplace compli-
ment, and of no value as to the Noble Marquis's general po-
litical character, and he felt that the present Parliament would
greatly discredit itself in the estimation of the country, if it
did not pronounce an unanimous condemnation upon that
character.

Mr. SHEIL, in order to meet the wishes of the House, as
he understood from the Right Hon. Baronet that the appoint-
ment of the Noble Marquis' had not been as yet completed,
and therefore the document for which he had moved was not
in a state to be laid before the House, should withdraw his
motion, satisfied that after the discussion of that night the
Noble Marquis himself would, in compliance with the feeling
of the country, resign at once the appointment to which he
had been named.
NAVY ESTIMATES.

On the motion of Lord ASHLEY, the House went into a
Committee of Supply.

Mr. HUME hoped that the Noble Lord would not, at that
late hour (half-past ten o'clock), go into his statement on the
Navy estimates, with a House that could not be much disposed
to pay the necessary attention to so important a subject after
the protracted discussion they had had.
Sir R. PEEL--I ask what prospect there can be of getting
through the public business if, upon occasions like the present,
and at so early an hour, we are to adjourn our proceedings ?
This night was fixed for bringing forward the Navy estimates,
and is it to be said that because an Hon. Gentleman gets up
and makes a motion that occupies the attention of the House
for five hours, which has nothing whatever to do with the Navy
estimates, that the public business must consequently be de-
layed ? Why not proceed as far as we can to-night? Surely
it must be known to Hon. Members that unless business be
proceeded with at the beginning of the Session, there will be
the greatest difficulty in getting through it as the period of
prorogation approaches ? The only object the Government
can have in going on at this hour is to forward the public bu-
siness, and I am sure that Hon. Gentlemen must see that they
will not be promoting the public interest by persisting in an
adjournment.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY recollected that in the last session
the two motions which the Marquis of Chandos brought for-
ward, were both introduced on a night fixed for going into a
Committee of Supply ; so that the motion of that night was
only following a bad example.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that if any one had a greater right
than another to complain of the practice alluded to he had, for
he believed he was the first person, when Chancellor of the
Exchequer, whose official statement had been interrupted by
motions not connected with the subject.
Sir R. PEEL—In answer to what has fallen from the Hon.
Baronet opposite ( Sir J. Wrottesley), I take leave to state that
I never did interfere or sanction any interference with the lat.)
Chancellor of the Exchequer on any night fixed by him for
bringing forward official business, or on going into a Commit-
tee of Supply. I was no party to the motions to which the
Hon. Baronet has alluded, and I ought not therefore to be se-
lected for an example on this occasion.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY could hardly think that those
motions were brought on without the concurrence of the Right
Hon. Baronet.

Mr. HUME considered that the question that had been dis-
cussed that night had every thing to do with the estimates.
It was always the practice to bring before the House any great
public grievance that was to be complained of on the occasion
of granting a vote of supply. Could any thing be more
scandalous than the discussion they had had that evening ?
( Hear and laughter.) The Right Hon. Secretary for the
Home Department was greatly mistaken if he supposed that
the practice of which he complained began when he was Chan-
cellor of theExchecitler, _ It had a much more ancient origin
than his appointment to that office.
After a few words from Lord SANDON and Sir S. WHALLEY,
Lord ASHLEY rose and said that it had fallen to his lot to
bring before the House the Navy Estimates for the present
year. It would be satisfactory to the House and to the country
to hear that in the present year there would be 232,0001. less
asked for than in 1834 ; and in saying this he did not state it as
any boast, because he felt assured that had the late Administra-
tion remained in office the same reductions would have been
effected. The plan of reduction upon which the present esti-
mates were framed, originated with the Duke of Wellington's
Administration, and was followed up by his Right Honourable
Friend the Member for Cumberland ( Sir James Graham), who
introduced the spirit of economy that at present pervaded every
department
of tecoun
Government,try T The
s
e
sole
e
presentservice
e con-
nected with these estimates, was, that they gave an answer to
pdairtt t
m hehat of
claimed the
fler t
the alarm that was raised that on the return of the Conserva-
tives to office there would also be a return to the worst system
of past times. He had divided the estimates for the year into
three heads—effective service, non-effective service, and ser-
vice of other departments of Government. In the effective
service there were 2,000 men less to be borne for wages in the
present than in the last year; but there was an increase as
compared with the last year of one thousand boys ; but as a
thousand boys are equal only to five hundred men in wages,
the net reduction, therefore, was equal to one thousand five
hundred men in wages. The next point to which he should
call the attention of the Committee was the victualling depart-
ment. Hero there was a general saving on the year's esti-
mate of 56,7361.
Five per cent. per margin at last year.
1830—Value of stock of provisions in hand £422,517 16 6
1834—Value of ditto ditto 255,651 1 3
Diminished capital employed
1830—Vote for provisions, &C.
1835—Vote for ditto ditto
In the items of stores and repairs for the present year there
was a gross saving. of 60,2771.
There was wanted in 1834 to complete the full establish-

ment of stores
Inserted in the estimates for that year..

£583,360
450,090

Difference of sum less than the amount required to com---
plete the establishment
Wanted to complete the establishment for 1835 £428,550
Inserted in the estimates for this year

Difference of sum less required to complete the establish-
ment .
Timber, 8 per cent. beyond the establishment.
In Store Cordage, 53 per cent. beyond the establishment.
ent.
Spars,He m equal p
133 per
fu
ro
eenl l t
. establishmentbeye ndth: in e
s ta
bs
ltoe.
i srhm
Expenditure per Cent. on Stock for years.
1829 1830 1831 1832 1833 1834
Timber 42 31 20 24 19 17
Cordage and Hemp
Canvass .........
Spars l2 12 12 8 5 4
The next point to which he should refer was the saving that
had been effected in new works, medical stores, and miscella-
neous services, and he was glad to be enabled to state to the
Committee that the sum required for the present year was less
by 28,2691. than that required for the service of last year.
Under the great head of non-effective there was also a very
material reduction.
Less for half-pay in 1835
Less for military pensions 653
Less for civil pensions and allowances..
Actual reduction in the vote for half-pay, including retired
pay, since 1828 107,387
He should now call the attention of the Committee to the
general head of " Service of other Departments," and it would
be gratifying to the Committee, as it was to the Government,
to find that in every branch of this department it was
found possible to make some reduction, although, from the
nature of the service, the reductions could not be to any very
great extent. The following were the items of saving which
the Government had been enabled to effect :
Less for Army and Ordnance Departments and
Convict Service ,,,.,,,,,...£25,475 0 0
Less on Convict Service
Transport of Convicts per head in 1830 l2 6 9
Ditto ditto 1834 7 6 2
Saving in last year by victualling Convict ships for
six instead of eight months 15,181 0 0
He had already stated to the Committee that the reduction
in the number of men in the effective service fcr the year
as compared with 1834, would be 1,500, leaving the total
number of effective men for the service of the present year
to be proved at 36,500. He should now state the compa-
rative expense of the effective service for three separate
periods, namely, 1817, 1823, and 1835, and the Committee
would perceive the vast progress that economy had made
within that space of time. In 1817 the total number of
effective men was only 2294, and the cost of maintaining
them was 5,327,306. In 1823 the number of men was
26,314, and the cost, although great reductions had been
made, amounted to 3,992,7351., while in the present year,
all that was required to keep up an effective force of
26,500 was the sum of 2,416,300/. So that thus to main-
tain 22,944 in 1817 required 2,911,006 more than 26,500
men in 1835, and 1,576,434 more to maintain the same num-
ber in 1823 than in 1835. The next circumstance con-
nected with the progress that economy had made in all
departments of the service to which he should direct atten-
tion, was a compaison be had made between the estimates and
expenditure for 1792, that year that had been so often referred
to, and so much lauded for its ebeapn ess in everyt4ing that ap-

plied to the wants either of the people or the Government,
—and the present year, By this comparison he found that
the sum demanded for effective service in the present Es-
timate was less by 426,3831. than the sum expended for
the same service in 1792.

Expended for effective service in 1792 for 17,360
men £3,016,703

Demanded for effective service, including credits for
old stores, for 26,500 men in 1823 2,590,320
-Line less for 26,500 men in 1835, than for 17,360 in
Thus m...._ ^f 426,383/.
1792, by the sum's... ' , had increased, and was still in-
To sliow how much btisme... -- of letters that were read,
creasing, tie' if:Thad state the numne.
. Somerset House
accompanied with a 'tag of accounts, ah. - "22 not one-
chiefly :—The estimate in 1834 wag E 34,452; in ...
tenth part of that number.
Average number of letters received at Whitehall Office an-
nually :

In 1792
In 1833

Letters despatched—
In 1792
In 1833
Total of letters in 1834 113,783
Amount of pensions, &c~ in 1792
Ditto ditto in 1835

With proportionate numbers of claimants.. In 1792 payments
were made only half-yearly ; in 1835 they were made quar-
terly, and artificers and labourers' wages paid weekly ; and
thus labour was considerably increased. In 1792 the number
of clerks employed was 260, and in the present year the num-
ber did not exceed 210. In 1792, the payments were made
half yearly, now they were made quarterly. There were 260
clerks in 1792, now there were not more than 210. In short,
there was tenfold the amount of business now that was in 1792,
and yet the establishment was in every respect less. He should
not detain the House longer, but move the first resolution, that
26,500 men be voted for the service of the present year.
Mr. L AI3OUCHE RE said nothing could be fairer than
the statement of his Noble Friend. The present reduced
state of these estimates was the result of a course of economy
pursued by successive Administrations. He was not at all dis-
posed to detract from the merit of the present Government.
The country was certainly indebted to the Duke of Welling-
ton's Government for many reductions in other public depart-
ments, but deserved no credit for the economy introduced into
the naval service of late. That was entirely owing to his
Right Hon. Friend ( Sir James Graham.) The total amount
of the navy expenditure was now less by a sum of 1,300,0001.
in consequence of his exertions. He did not say this from any
party feeling, but in justice to his Right Hon. Fiend, to whom
it was solely and entirely owing. During late sessions of Par-
liament, whenever the navy estimates were brought forward,
and the economy of his Right Hon. Friend became the subject
of observation, the way in which it had been met by gentlemen
opposite was, by saying that the arsenals were neglected, the
service rendered inefficient, and that ruin was falling upon
the whole naval department. They insisted upon the neces-
sity of still further increasing it, but now under the head of
naval stores they themselves called for 64,0001. less than that
proposed last session by his Right Hon. Friend. This was a
proof that his Right Hon. Friend did not push economy at the
expence of the efficiency of the service. At present he should
confine his observations to the vote now proposed, the number
of men, and looking at the navies of Russia, of France, and
other states, lie should not say that the vote proposed was ex-
travagant. He did not see how it could be less. The num-
ber of men was one thousand less than last yT,ar, and for this
one thousand men an equal number or boys was t.. be substi-
tuted. This was a good plan. With respect to the pumber
of clerks at the Admiralty and at Somerset-house, he enl2d
truly say, from personal experience, that they worked in a man-
ner which often gave him great pain, and so far from wishing
their number diminished, he would not be undisposed to in-
crease them.

Admiral CODRINGTON complained that justice was
not done to that meritorious class of men the pursers. Their
half-pay was three or four shillings a day, and no increase had
lately been made in it, in consequence of an arrangement
formerly entered into. They might ultimately derive some
advantage from it, but they had none at present. If a war
was to break out to-morrow Government would profit to the
amount of between 15,0001. and 20,000/. a-year by the num-
ber of pursers that would get upon the full pay. These useful
men ought to have some immediate advantage from the ar-
rangement entered into. Men who were injured in the naval
service were not so well treated as those who suffered in the
land service. Would the House believe that if a man lost
an eye there was no compensation for him ? He recommended
one to the Admiralty under these circumstances. They gave
him at first 91., then 41., and the third time that he applied
he could obtain nothing. Clerks in the civil departments
were better paid than officers, no matter what their length
of service.

Captain BERKELEY said he never saw an instance of
such an application as that alluded to being neglected at the
Admiralty.

Admiralty CODRINGTON said he had made such appli-
cation, and was received with rebuke.

Mr. HUME could not admit that they had arrived at the
minimum of expenditure.—( A laugh.) Before long he hoped
to see the navy estimates much less. He had not the esti-
mates of 1792, to which the Noble Lord referred, now by
him, but he believed they differed from those quoted by the
Noble Lord. He wished to know whether the number of
men now proposed to be voted was the same as the number
actually upon the books ?
Lord ASHLEY said at the close of the year the number
upon the books would be the same as that voted.

Mr. HUME continued. He should like to know what rea-
son there was for keeping up a larger number of men now
than in 1818 to 1832. In 1822 the number of men was 22,000.
Why add 3,000 or 4,000 to that now ? The Gallant Officer
examined by the Finance Committee gave it as his opinion
that the establishment was too large, and that no greater num-
ber of men was required than in 1792. The number in that
year was 16,471. Why should it be greater now' The Noble
Lord had no right to claim any merit for reductions in the pre-
sent estimates. The only economy he saw in them was a re-
duction in the stores. If there was any particular reason for
an increase of men now beyond 1792, the House ought to be
made acquainted with it. Not more than one-half the number
of the ships now afloat was necessary. There were not less
than •22 on the West India station and Nova Scotia, One-
third of that number would be quite sufficient to protect the
whole of their commerce in that part of the world. There
was no chance of a war now.

.•
Sir R. PEEL did not think the Hon. Gentleman was justi-
fied in the observations he made. The Hon. Member said that
when once a number of men was voted, they could not got them
reduced.
Mr. HU ME did not make the observation.

Sir R. PEEL—lie so understood the lion. Gentleman.
The vote now proposed was a sufficient proof that there was
no unwillingness to further reduction, if it could be made
consistently with what the efficiency of the service required.
The lion. Gentleman the Member for Middlesex asked what
was the precise number of men required in the present cir-
cumstances of the country ? Suppose 26,000 to be called
for, it would be no easy matter for him, or for any other
person, to demonstrate whether or not 1,000 of that number
might be cut off without injury to the public service of the
country. The best way would he, to appeal to his expe-
rience upon this point. The disposition of the late First
Lord of the Admiralty ( Sir J. Graham) to economy in the
department at the head of which he was placed, was ad-
mitted, and no person was more disposed than himself to
give the Right Hon. Baronet credit for it. • He was quite
ready to appeal to the Right Hon. Baronet, and to ask him
whether he would deem it prudent to reduce this vote by a
greater number than 1,000 men ? He might appeal in the
same way to the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, and ask
whether he, from his knowledge of this branch of the public
service, would think it convenient or expedient to propose
a further reduction ? But, said the lion. Member (Mr.
Hume), why not bring down the number to what it was in
1792, or 1817, and the years immediately succeeding ? lie
might, with equal propriety, and with no greater chance of a
satisfactory answer, ask the Hon. Member why the number
should not be lower now than in 1792 ? Why select that year
in particular? What good reason was there for making 1792
the standard to which every branch of the public expenditure
was to be referred, and by which it was to be tested? Sup-
pose the public service had required more than 26,000 men
in 1792, that surely would not be deemed a sufficient reason
for their voting a greater number than was now proposed.
The argument of the lion. Member would be a good one if
the circumstances of 1792 were precisely the same in other
respects as those of 1834. But were they the same'? For
instance, as respected the West India Colonies, were they
similarly circumstanced in both years ? In 1792 there was
not, as now, a great moral experiment in progress—(hear,
hear)—which in its results might most materially affect the
peace and prosperity of these colonies. In 1792 South Ame-
rica was not divided, as now, into a number of independent
states, over which they might not perhaps be • able to exercise
the same influence as over older states. If the lion. Member
made inquiry into the subject he would find that numerous
applications had been made to the British Government for the
aid of naval force against the numerous piracies that were con-
stantly taking place in that part of the world. It was quite
impossible to demonstrate by logical reasoning what was the
precise number of men that might be necessary if judgment on
this head could only be formed from general relations, and
from the naval armaments kept up by the other States of
Europe. At a time when a naval force was required in the
Mediterranean and the West Indies, and while the new States
of South America were- not completely settled, would it be
prudent to vote a smaller number of men than was now pro-
posed ?—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. 11 U ME—Did the Right Hon. Baronet mean to say
that their commerce was unprotected in 1792? In that year
they had the same number of men, 2,534, on the West India
station, as they had now ; and in the Mediterranean there
were more, by 1,100. The commerce of the United States
was nearly as great as their own ; their commerce had suffered
less indignity, and yet they had not one-tenth the number of
ships of war to protect it. With respect to building ships,
more money had been spent in that way, since the peace of
1815, than would build two navies. The money was actually
rotting away, for many ships—the Nelson, for instance—were
rotting in Portsmouth harbour ; and yet, notwithstanding all
this, the construction of new ships was going on. lie begged
the Right lion. Baronet to look back to 179.2, when he would
find the expenses of building and repairing ships exactly ac-
counted for. Then every pound that was expended, every
ship that was built or repaired, the materials, the wages of the
men, all the expenses, in fine, were placed in the estimate of
the year. That practice had been discontinued for a long
time. lie was sure the Right Hon. Baronet would see the
necessity of putting a stop this year to all building of new
ships. He did not see, in the present estimate, an account of
the new ships that had been built. With regard to the num-
ber of men, the marines, and the whole establishment, he
should like to see them classed, officers and men, as they were

in the army estimates. The staff appointments in the ma.
rives, he would never cease to mention as a gross outrage.
The 26,500 men were placed in one line. He should like to.
see them regularly classed. The navy estimates were less clear
than any other, and it was impossible to know the number
of Admirals and Captains in the service. That was i'ot
the case with respect to the army estimates. The Hon.
Member concluded, by moving that the vote be reduced to'
20,500 nteu.
The question having been put---
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he had some experience of the
bench on which the Right Hon. Baronet sat, and he would
say, that whoever sat there, would find it extremely difficult
to suit the tastes of the different Gentlemen of that House-
__

' I His frank opinion was, with respect to the reduction of the
f number of men stated in the estimate for the yeat, that none
•to take place. He begged to Say, that be should ex-
off'" --et if any reduction of men took place, and.par-
tromely re 6,.
ticularfy at the pr.... -
, -sent luncture.—Hear'..) His own opinion
was founded, of course c'on no articularp
, ugriffc e a
iorfs
,ti.bnrfoorinugiti:
knowledge of tion, but derived from his general
sn.
the
the world, that whether he lookes: to our do:teets
thel
fo-
reign policy, no reduction at all ought to take plaee
number of effective seamen. First, regarding the questiool Qf
domestic policy, he thought that if Honourable Gentlemera
would recur to former dates, particularly as related t
impressment, they would find, that at no time were the
of this country moo anxious that every method
should be adopted rather than have recourse to the system
of impressment. Keeping up the number of ~effective
men would, in the case of a war, preclude, in a great degree
the necessity of impressment. Still, looking to the matte as
question of domestic policy, if people should not give Astir
consent to keep up a proper standing force it would be impos-
sible in the case of a war arising to collect in a short time the
large f?rce that would be necessary on such an ptnergency.
The course Ministers had pursued in adding boys to .the ser-
vice was judicious. As he before stated, boys trained early to
the service would be more likely to attach themselves to it,
and they would not quit it to enter into the merchant service..
However, if boys were to be maintained it should only be iw
a small proportion to the number of men. His opinion was
that 2,000 boys ought to be kept up, and marines and men in
proportion. It w2.s also of great impoptance that officers and
men should undergo a proper previous training, and upon this
point he was speaking in the presence of a Gallant Admiral
who commanded an evolutionary squadron some few years since..
That Gallant Officer could testify that those evolutionary
squadrons did good to the service, by keeping up the number of
officers, and the number of men ought to keep pace with that oft
officers. Besides, there was another question... There was an
immense body of officers on half-pay, and to assimilate the
number of men to the number of officers that were liable to serve
immeditely in the case of a mar, it was absolutely necessary to
keep a large number of men afloat. With respect to the other
question, that of our foreign relations, the Executive Go-
vernment could best answer it. For his own part, looking to
the state of foreign affairs, he thought it necessarythat a large
fleet should be kept up, and that opinion he considered was
fully justified by the remarks made by Hon. Members during
the debate that had taken place that evening on the motion of
the Honourable and Learned Member for Tipperary. He
would put it -to the good sense of the House whether, looking
to the affairs of foreign States, and considering their navies,
it would not be a great act of impolicy, nay, he would say of
danger, to reduce our naval force to the extent proposed by
the motion of the :Hon. Member for Middlesex 7—( Hear,
hear.) After having given his best consideration to thesub-
ject the only objection he had to the present estimate of the
Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) was, that it was too low. Of
course he could never consent to a further reduction, as was
me, pd by the Hon. Member for Middlesex.
mr; I,ABOUC HERE thought that better arrangementi
might be ode with respect to building ships, and the impres-
sion on Lord'A.uckland was that some improvement might be
introduced into thai department. He hoped that the attention
of the Board of Admit;dty would be called to the subject, for
-
if it was, the consequence would be in a very few years ,a con-
estimates.
siderable reduction in the navy
Dr. BOWRING considered tn.:t great improvement was
made in the form of the present estiina:f-', for which the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth was to be thanked.
Still the estimate was not in such a shape as to enable the
House to judge of the whole calculation; in some parts of it:
there were sufficient details, in other parts there were none,
and in several parts there were so many incongruities that Hon.
Gentlemen could not clearly see their way. He knew that a
system might be adopted that would put an end to the faults of
the present one. He saw capital vices running throtigh the
whole of the present estimate ; for instance, the department of
expenditure was often made the department of receipt. There
was another department of which by the present estimate fin
judgment could be formed; he meant the naval stores, &c.
was necessary to know the amount of stock of various articles
in the stores, in order to be able to form a judgment thereupon.
He was aware that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had
made every effort to arrive at the real state of things. At
that late hour of the night he would not trouble the House
with any further observations, but with respect to some parts
of the estimates, according as they were submitted to the
House, he would with great humility make some remarks,
with the view of improving the mode of drawing them up for
the future. —( Hear. )
Mr. G. F. YOUNG hoped that the Hon. Member for
Middlesex was not serious in moving for a reduction of the es-
timated number of men. It appeared to him that there were
many things connected with the civil service of the navy that
could never be well-regulated without a Committee of that
House, or without what was preferable, as being most likely to
be efficient, a Commission of Inquiry.
Sir E. CODRINGTON thought that the number of ma-
rines should be kept up, and mentioned an action (we believe
Navarino) in which they were highly serviceable. The evo-
lutionary squadron alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet,
had been of great use in rendering both officers and men fitter
than they would otherwise be for the service.

Lord ASHLEY said that Government was continually re-
ceiving complaints from the officers on foreign stations on ac-
count of the insufficiency of their crews. It was but the other
day the Commodore on the South American station trans-
mitted a complaint of that nature. Now, as to the objection
to building new ships, modern improvements in shipbuilding
rendered the practice necessary. Several new ships had been
constructed, and he knew that those built under the directions
of Captain Symonds had excited universal admiration. An
instance occurred not long since of the best sailors in the
Portsmouth squadron being completely distanced by an Ame-
rican vessel of the same construction. If the Government of the
country did not adopt the new improvements in shipbuilding
what would be the state of our Navy in the event of a war?
Mr. G. F. YOUNG was in possession of a drawing or
engraving, published fifty-four years ago, which represented a
model similar to that after which the Vernon was built. The
model alluded to had been submitted to the Board of Ad-
miralty of the day and was not approved of, so that if this prin-
ciple of ship construction was good, at any rate it was not new.
With respect to the allusion of the success in shipbuilding of
Captain Symonds, he heard that gentleman had constructed
ships, steam-boats particularly, and among others the Tar- ,
torus and Blazer, which had totally failed. Before he sat
down he wished to know from the Noble Lord why a larger
sum was now asked in proportion to the number of men than
was voted last year ?
Lord A SHLE Y, in replying, said that the number of small
ships in commission was greater this year than last. Small
ships required a greater number of officers than large, and this
it was that occasioned the excess of 10,0001. in the present
estimate.
Sir S. WH A LLE Y declared that the present estimates
were the most monstrous which had ever been laid before Par-
liament, and he therefore hoped the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex would divide the House upon his motion. _

Mr. E. BULL E R expressed a hope that the Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Middlesex would persist in his
amendment if only to show that they were in earnest. lie had
voted with the lion. Gentleman in the minority of last year,
and having voted against the Whig Government he thought
it was now only an act of justice to vote against the Tories.—
( Laughter.) Indeed the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Middlesex was bound to show that his present opposition was
not the result of party motives.
Lord D. STE CART thought that the present situation of
the country with regard to Foreign powert required that an
increased naval force should be maintained, and if the lion.
Gentleman the Member for Middlesex persevered in his motion
he must vote against him.
Sir .1. GRAHAM—Although he had no official informa-
tion to go upon, thought it right before the Committee went to.
a division to put the matter in the proper point of view. The'
lion. Gentleman (Mr. E. Buller) asked why a larger naval
force was required now than in any of the years from 1817 to
1822 , and he would answer that question, although, as he said
before, he had no official knowledge upon the subject. Let
them only look to the.naval establishments kept up by Russia
and other foreign Powers. Russia had 37 sail of the line in
the Baltic, and 12 in the Black Sea, while the establishment of
this country consisted of no more than ten sail of the line.
Such a fact he submitted was quite sufficient to justify the
present increose.
Mr. HUME said that as the estimate before the Committee
had not been sufficiently discussed, and as it was now close to
one o'clock, an hour too late to proceed with business so im-
portant, he must move that the Chairman do report progress,
and ask leave to sit again.—( General cries of " 'No, no,"
" Divide, divide.") lion. Gentlemen talked of dividing, but
did they recollect that the vote had scarcely been entered
upon yet ?—( Cries of " Well, then, go on, go on.") He did
not choose to go on.—( Renewed cries of " Divide, divide.")
He wished to ask the Noble Lord upon what principle he could
call on them to vote money without knowing what it was for?
Lord ASHLEY—It is for the service generally—for all
classes, from the senior Admiral down to the cook's boy.
Mr. HUME—These estimates should be made out as the
army estimates were. They did know how the money voted
for the army was to be distributed, but in the navy_ estimates
all such details were studiously avoided. Really it was not
right that they should be called on to vote lumped sums in
this we':. The information he desired could be supplied by
Monday.
Sir R. PEE L—These estimates are prepared in precisely
the same manner as those of last year.—(Hear.) If the Hon.
Member for Middlesex wished for inforMation he had ample
time to move for it, inasmuch as he was in possession of the
estimates on Sunday last.---( Hear, hear.) lie admits that
it could be got between this and Monday ; and if it were a
matter so easy to be procured, why did he not call for this in-
formation before the estimates were brought forward ?
Mr. HUME observed, that without the production of these
details the estimate was so unintelligible that they should not
be required to vote it.
Admiral ADAM fully agreed with his Hon. Friend that
the details should be given. The average wages per month
was 3/. lls. per man, and it ought to be shown exactly
what each man of every class received. Such details 'would