The Sun.
London, England, 1835-02-25 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEZ. 24.
;The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at a quarter to 4 o'clock,
and about a dozen members were sworn in.
At half-past 4, there were about three hundred members
present, and of these at least 250 were on the opposition
benches.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
The usual Sessional orders relative to election petitions
were then read, as also those for the sitting of the
Committee of Grievances and the other Standing Committees.
Mr. WARBURTON observed that these orders were read
session after session, although they were never carried into
effect. He did not see, therefore, the necessity of making these
'orders, and would move that they be deferred until the next
time the House met, which was the course pursued at the com-
mencement of the last session.
The orders were accordingly postponed.
Sir G. CLERK gave notice that to-morrow he should fix
a day for the regulation of private business and petitions.
DISSENTERS' MARRIAGES.
...The Hon. Member then gave notice, that on the 17th of
lief ll he should move for leave to bring in a Bill for the ye-
" of persons dissenting from the Church of England, relative
l
to the regulations observed in marriages.—( Loud and reitera-
d cries of " Hear, hear.")

TITHES.
The Hon. Member then gave notice, that on the 24th inst,
ne
t; 0011 d move for leave to bring in a Bill for the Commuta-
-11(
'i
-°„11
ta l. ,of Tithes in England and Wales.—( Loud cries of
, hear.")

POOR LAWS.
shnlif,r; COBBETT gave notice, that on the 2d of April he
Cum move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Poor
TiaWBAtnendhle.nt Bill.—( Laughter. and " Hear, hear, hear.")
:Ron. Member also gave notice, that he should move for
7e to bring in a• Bill for the equitable adjustment of what
148 called the National Debt---( Hear, hear)—so that none
uut holders of land aod real property should be taxed for the
Payment of the interest of that debt.
move HARDY give notice that on March 19, he should
rve for leave to bring in a Bill for the consolidation of the
:relating to Bribery.
Bdr. DIVETT gav, notice of a Bill for the extinction of
urch rates—(hear, hear); and also of a Bill for the in-
of the duty on spirit licenses.
THE MALT TAX.
to The Marquis of C H AND 0 S gave notice of his intention
ou leove for leave to bring in a Bill for the Repeal of the Duty
hlralt.---( Hear, and cheers.)
POULTER gave notice that on the 11th March he
I %d move for leave to bring in a Bill for the Better Oh-
tt.',l'vance the S'abbath ; also a Bill to protect Freeholders in
exercise of the Elective Franchise.
MILITARY FLOGGING.
uPou PANCOURT gave notice that in the Committee
the Military Estimates, he should introduce a motion for
441:0tition of military flogging.—( Cheering.)
IRISH POOR LAWS.
Oil' R. .MUSGRAVE gave notice that, on the 24th of
li
kfre h, he
.ch ould move to bring in a Bill to authorise the re-
ofthe poor in Ireland.—( Hear. )

THE IRISH CHURCH.
slit WARD qave notice that on the 12th of March he
te°-„h", bring under
341". Episcopal
the consideration of the House the Pro-
urch of Ireland, and the necessity of
Coot ig it correspond with the wants of the people of that
ii,rrY.- (Loud cries ott' " Hear, hear.")
gave no!i'ce that he should move that no bu-
tilllt„-10a commencged after i o'clock at night.—( Hear.) Also
4314 he should bring in a VII for the reduction of the duty
letic?l,East India sugar to the same rate as that upon West
uh,ls,oduce t also a Bill to give prisoners full defence by
t‘°
-"'et ; and a bill for the abolition of capital punishments.
kr POST OFFICE.
(of WALLACE (Greenock) gave notice, that on the 3d
klis arch he would move a resolution, that the reporters of
agablic press should be allowed to remain within the House
((l the the divisions were taken. He further gave notice, that
4aan:e sth of March he would move an inquiry into the
lenient of the Post Office.
I,lfr u RATHCORMAC AFFRAY.
Rat • • GRA TTAN gave notice, that on the 6th of
pv,0(...e11, he would move for a Committee of Inquiry into the
eillo-edhiga at Rathcormac.—( Great cheering.) He would
to 2.17°°,..ve for copies of letters addressed by Lord F. Somerset
H. Vivian upon this subject.
e. LAW Di? DEBTOR AND CREDITOR.
th j' CAMPBI:LL gave notice that he would, early in
kediStoessi°o, frring in a Bill to amend the law of debtor and
and also the law of escheat.
• -."-AIAL OF BISHU.PS FROM THE HOUSE OF
Sir LORDS.
,WHALLEY gave notice that, on the 31st of
• he would move a resolution that in any plan of
13t h-„" Reform that should be introduced, the
44;t1i -rtis should be requested to give their attendance in the
in! .1,701130 to give their advice upon ecclesiastical matters, as
ht -p7.iges were- upon questions of law, but without having
11. e her of voting. The same Honourable Member also
I.°P.,lnt.:°tiee that on the 9th of April he would move a
th -"leo for the repeal of the Window Taxes. Also that
t`')41,4431 /notion for the repeal of the Septennial Act, he
thltt", nlove that the term be reduced to three years ; and
tz•,4„ title House of Commons might not sooner be dissolved
ttpo.ri the demise of the C: own.
oolj IRISH POOR LAWS.
h'AIIT O'BRIEN gave notice that on the 19th of
I" tct he would ask for leave to bring in a Bill for the relief
aged and jri,lirm poor of Ireland—( Cheers.)
DISSENTERS' GRIEVANCES.
• 'LEES ;ave notice that on the 20th of March he
' .t • -
vn„ee",og under
Dissenters, ihe eon3ide o
ration f the House the practical
-s of the with a view to their relief.
I' VOTE BY BALLOT.
L'btli d* "ROTEgave notice th.ltt on the 2d of April, he
-911 • move that, for the future, _elections of Members to
4,) ut Parliament should take ace by ;he ballot.—( Cheers. )
th ATTORNEY-GENERAL gave notice that. on the
Its kat 44130 eh, he would introduce founded on the
li fmproving the
tk. • the Ecesiasticaooers,
Shat on oc f justice inl ECmm cclesiasticn Couors. al rti
Ist LONDON UNIVERSITY.
°I 1 '°GKE
t gave notice, that on the 26th of
_March he
Fe en address to his Majesty to grant a Charter to
°I'P
ation of the University of London containing nd
I,l4l.!est.Tistions thanr those relating to degrees in divinity.
pf Itt DW , ER gave notice, that on the lath of March
4. the • e t.), ,
Troved for the orders given to the soldiery in the event
it collision with the people ; also that, in future, the sol-
\-
ea°oll4tshould be directed to fire with effect—( Great laughter)
f firing over the heads of the people.
r COY ELECTION PETITIONS.
''lYLEYgave notice that he would move that, when
iortkl
Iv
the' Jisti.. were declared void upon petition, the expenses of
be V. 1.• loner should be defrayed by the county, except where
41.a414-I,llkbers were unseated for bribery, when the expenses
Or, s't!' Paid by the unseated Members.
ivett, A • °'CONNOR gave notice of a motion for some
"fr41..e.t4 .evidence connected with the fatal affray at Rath-

ti, No, s THE KING'S SPEECH.
to 4-e" at • having been disposed of at Eve o'clock,
'IN ,44tart rnre°atideTisMajest 'sSpeech (for which see the
b,,trietr`oeP, art), at the conclusiony of which
7,ttitt. ' 4NL'ON rose and said—Even if this were not so i.m-
-10;14 .nett
occas ion, I should feel much difficulty in addressing
1,4431:1,111,.-‘ll3tteen, tiaft I must say I never ventured to trespass
NN ithout the deepest feeling
.of, my . own
in 441't •"'''eY for oi hen undertaking. The object which ibt!•••4llll4view is ite .• to the House my reasons for so do-
iltnaos —ear. ) I efesetla'th is to be no ordinary occasion, either
t...."Qicilirtaace to the country or to the House. It is this feeling
4,tiorilitute,,_ me to ask more ,411k'n the usual share of your at-
t. NI. _,'."3 moment. Howe, et
. clieh L alien and uncongenial to my painful, however onerous,
parliamentary habits,
1,..'.'1y n,:tve never led to trespas): on your attention for
iq4°4 ,at length of mteime, yet, Sii% when the ques-
i Iv4s Put
c\i4.4 tot he to me whether I would .undertake this task,
ti, lilt
a.
_,,si!ate one instant. I felt
.that it Tvas,nmy duty, that
t, tty fell
all tunes supported religious liberty amo every class
'l' kerit:;°W-eountrymen, I was, at the same time, not prepared
_
III:410.417 InYaelf with those who were its avowed enemies. 1
wY it: -inclined to put that corstruction which has been done
crt ' Others pat
it was. not so much intended to
toNtill:iiisll,4l3.lic opinion a useful controul over the members.. of the
b.t Li itlOn as it was to decide who those ministers were
litilbil fa-.....1,,.(r-mld' cheering from thp opposition.) I felt that
I:''t 1 -I°ll t,•as congenial to a certain party—( Hear, he.ay)_
ii,i4; ;tl/113 anti; fns to show that
.there was one who did not
i '4k ti, at opinion. I was desirous to support that. claim
•Itv `"eßight Baronet, head of his Ma-
tdt .1,4 s Q 0 non: now at the
pktierm:anra., rit hag on his. corzotry, that he should have a
gear.) I felt that the
lopiZative u'of
thecancdrindwnbezraisng
t 1441114, ttid I felt that it wouldin.bveolvine-ddee;cll; athis
ty exercise
extin;
At Iviliet. li, without further cause, a fair trial were not gra;:Y(L,
lboil:ever myself entertained any confidence in Lo.ra
tlk •lit,ree administration, I was not anxio.us to. enquire
( ' led the reasons on which that administration was
Ilt‘l ss fromanttlhetuhpepospirtclusenl
Beusttallri:hthedat
eirniquiirsy
was made

had been appealed to. The Ministeri had declared their inteW-n toby another party—(Continued cheers from the Opposition).
propose measures ol paramount importance to the country The present and it is quite right that such an enquiry should be ma a
Minister% from very circumstance of their lacing enabled
to avail- thethemsel• creof. the information collected by
.their pre-
decessorscannot in office, be a matter of indifference to any representative.—
In a more favourable.. condition to perfect these
Measures than the Government of which he had had the honour to form If on these general grounds I felt disposed to take a
Part. It they should succeed in carrying those bills whirls were, he part on the present occasion, which I now do, ti:s2
knew, in contemplation by the late ministry, the country would be a Speech which we have just heard from the Throne con-
Zgreat gainer, and they might he carried out even to a greater extent, if firms me in the propriety of the course which I have
ugliht ouse of Commons should think fit. The country at large, he deemed it right to pursue. I ask those who
were connect-
were desirous of seeing what those measures were, He looked ed with Lord Grey's Administration, and confident that
M the
°nse(!u"ces
likely
to result from the overthrow of the present they will not desert the principles of that junction, I as::,
tTicould Administration without a trial. If they were turned out to-morrow, are those principles endangered by the present Administra -
nother
di,tisocciueteid them in the present state of the [louse of Commons 11 tion ? The principles which were emblazoned on the standar 1
ahad. feelings which on,,hweciuld inevitably be resorted to by the succeeding of that Administration were " Peace, Economy, and R:-
Aernitestration. s
.the country would be re_ to
and all the form." With regard to peace, there cannot be the lea, t
ch prevailed on such occasions would be called forth— apprehension that while the present Administration is in
circumstance which made him regret that the late dissolution ever had
e.avter taken place. NVith regard to the causes `of the dissolution of the power, that principle will be endangered—for I find that with
late ministry, he could offer no opinion. He was not in the Cabinet, some countries we are on terms of a friendly footing, while wit h
nnr
__was he. aware of the pledges which that Cabinet might have made to other countries we are on more friendly terms—( Cheere
from the Ministerial side, and loud laughter from the
theeeessesvereign. still less would he give any positive opinion as to the
__ity of dissolving the House of Commons. There was one part of Opposition.) At the Same time our connection wit is
Nis
to,k_37aiestra Speech which met with his warmest applause—he alluded the free states of Europe continues uninterrupted, and
expressions promissory of relief to the agriculturists. He regretted those states which do not enjoy the great blessings of free
t,"0".!, part of the Speech was mention made of, establishing poor laws
t Ireland. In conclusion the tiobl Duke repeated that he would giv Government feel such confidence in the maintenance
the Administration a fair ;rial,.thouegh without reposing confidence of the peace of Europe, that they are disposed to role
thaw
n upon the prefessions of the present, and to live in peace and
The Earl of LIMERICK,
harmony with neighbouring States.—(lronical cheers from the
who spoke from the cross benches was
understood to dissent hom the view taken by the Noble Duke who Opposition.) I suppose, from the cheers with which Hon.
Ilx)kelast on the subject of poor laws for Ireland. Gentlemen receive this statement, that they consider it disad_
liv
The question was then put on the amendment, which was nega- vantageous to maintain the peace of Europe. This is a new-
ed without a division. The original address was then agreed to doctrine of the Whigs—it is not the doctrine of the old
Adjourned.
Whigs—it is not the doctrine of Mr. Fox ;itis a strange doc-
trine of those who professed the principles of non-interference,
professions very highly made in language, but not in fact.
The name of the Duke of Wellington and his colleagues
were sufficient—( Hear, hear)—their character for econo-
mical Reform, which had received the eulogy of their
successors, ought to be a guarantee of the good faith with they intend to act in this respect : but the estimates
which, according to his Majesty's Speech, are to be laid
before us, afford us something more than an hypothetic&
conclusion, and sufficient, in my opinion, to satisfy ever.
the Honourable Member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume).
Sir, I hope in that state of the public revenue—l hope we
may see after the charges necessarily incurred by that great
act of humanity, the act for the abolition of Negro Slavery—
when I say these charges shall have been defrayed, I hope to
see considerable relief, and that we shall find large
burdens taken off the shoulders of the people. And
although I am more intimately connected with the
commercial than with the agricultural interest, yet I do hope
that the interest of the latter will never be lost sight of by
the Government or by this House.—( Hear, hear.) The
third great question, and by far the greatest one, 110 doubt,
is that of Reform.—( Cheers.) Sir, Lord Grey, in the
question of Parliamentary Reform, made larger concessions to
the public feeling than he had originally intended.—(No, no,
from the opposition.) . He went so far avowedly for the pur-
pose of avoiding further advances on the road of reform which ,
some gentlemen were inclined to travel, and accordingly he
resisted, and those who were his colleagues in office
resisted the motions made from time to time by honourable
Gentlemen for further changes in our parliamentary system.
These changes were moved for by men who now sit on the
same side of the House with the Members of the late Govern-
ment.—( Hear.) Therefore, with regard to Reform, I think it
is quite apparent that Lord Grey had gone the full length of
his measures, and to the extent of the principles propounded
by his Administration. If they had not done more in carrying
forward reform, do any Hon. Gentlemen mean to stand up
and say that they expect further concession from that party
—( Hear and cheers from the Opposition.) Am Ito under-
stand that cheer as acquiescing in my assertion ?—( No.) I say
I must do so in any assembly where common sense preponderates.
I thought Hon. Gentlemen would leave that manner of de-
bating in their taserns and on their hustings. I know it will he
said that the present Government, if they follow up the principle
of reform will be open to a charge of inconsistency. I
know it may be said that they are untrue to their pro ff
-
fessions, if they do not repeal that which, while it
was in progress, they described as fatal to the interests
of this country ; but I do not think that this House will
agree in this opinion, or believe that they tamper with their
principles, or sacrifice their feelings in the least degree. I think
that that doctrine will be no longer held : it would be dangerous
to the House's dignity, as it would be injurious to the interests
of society. The question of Catholic Emancipation was,
considered as one of great importance and difficulty ;
at the same time, I never heard it asserted of any
man who took office since, and who had voted for
the Bill after opposing it, that he had been a traitor to his prin-
ciples.—( Hear.) But, Sir, if in the way of Parliamentary
Reform there was any difficulty of an association between
the present and the late Administration under the manage-
ment of Lord Grey—( Hear, and laughter from the Opposi-
tion)—l say Lord Grey has given no more than the present
Administration could have given, and the present Administra-
tion will not therefore take away anything. You will say the Re-
form Bill was not an ideal measure, but that it was to
be one of effect, and perhaps no subject is so important as
that of the reform of the Municipal Corporations.—( Hear,
hear.) There is no doubt that in those corporations consi-
derable abuses exist, but it is a question of great compli-
cation and difficulty.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Upon
this his Majesty's Commissioners, who were appointed
under the Ministry of Lord Grey have not yet made their re-
port, and it cannot be expected that this or any other Mi-
nistry can bring forward any definitive measure, until the re-
sult of that enquiry be known.--( Hear, hear, hear.) I have
at the same time a confidence in that report, and when
it is once made, the present Government will not be
slow, not only in giving full consideration, but effect
to the recommendations founded thereon.--(Hear, bear. )
Sir, with regard to the grievances, the practical
grievances of dissenters, it is perhaps the second question in
importance. Sir, Ido not conceive that much difference
exists between the principles of the two parties ; but I find
that there is an agreement upon three great points—marriages,
registration of births, and exemption from Church rates.—
With regard to Church Reform, he entertained not the
slightest doubt but the Right Hon. Baronet would introduce
such Constitutional measures as would meet no objection ;
and the only difficulty then would be in the detail. Now,
as to the Church-rate, it was true that it was h burthen ;
but it fell upon the land, and the measures which were
under consideration would relieve them from the burthen,
and the course which the Right Hon. Baronet was determined
to pursue would overcome all difficulties.—( Cheers from the
Opposition.) The admission of Dissenters to the University
was another question which absorbed public attention. He
would not discuss the point then in detail as to what the Dis-
senters were entitled to. They had already obtained many pri-
vileges to which he would not question their right. However,
no material difference of opinion existed upon that ground.
And no doubt all real grievances would be readily and freely
redressed.--( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet was not
unmindful of the necessity there was for the improvements 1
of the legal institutions of the country. In his address to his
constituents, he had pronounced that the improvement in I
the civil and ecclesiastical institutions of the country
claimed and should have his attention—( Cheers.) And such
improvements, while they gave tranquillity to the country.
would afford security to property. There was another impor-
tant point which demanded their best attention, and that was
the question of Irish Tithes—(Hear).—and he was assured
that a measure would be announced which would prove a satis-
factory arrangement of that question, and no doubt would
entitle it to the co-operation of those on the other side of the
House who gave their support to Lord Grey's measure.—
( Cheers.) And be regretted that the Bill which had been
introduced by his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ire-
land had been thrown out, but he still felt confident that the
measure which his Majesty's Government is about to intro-
duce would meet with support, and load to a more succesf-
ful termination : it would be unlike the MeaStifC introduced
by the Hon. Member for Dublin, which, while it disregarded
the rights of one party, gave eta ieordinpte power to the other.
At the same time I cannot help saying that the feeling of this
House decidedly was that all the evils which gypee from the
pres.rK system, and from the collection of the tithe in small
sums, were' still in existence; and diet these could only be
got rid of by einishing the plan of composition.—( Hear.)
It is undeniable that ti;: se evils existed, and it must be, I
am sure, the common object of government to get rid of
these evils. We are told also, ti;:.‘t another great tegil
attendant upon the present system of the Established
Church in Ireland, is, that when the peasantry
have paid their dues to the Protestant church
Establishment—a Church unconnected with the religious
instruction of the people—they have, in addition, V,
pay for the support of a Church of their own. If it were
proposed to take away the revenues of the Protestant Church in
certain parts of Ireland, and transfer them to the Roman
Catholic population, thereby relieving them from the tax which
(by the evidence of persons of their own persuasion) they labour
under, thereby rendering the clergy independent of their own
flocks, whatever objections might arise (and they were nothing
material), at least a great good would be obtained, The
Members of the late Administration, one and all, dis..
claimed the intention, in their plan, of giving one shilling
to the Catholic Priesthood. Their scheme was that tithe
was still to be collected in all its odium, and then
that they should get rid of a certain number of the Pro-
testant clergymen, from the revenues of whose parishes
the Catholic clergy were to be paid. We cannot do
what that Government proposed to do, without inflicting
a great shock upon the public feeling of the people
of this country, and without effecting a great change
in the public property, and occasioning great alarm in the
minds of the people of Ireland ; and by giving a feeling of
triumph to one party, and a feeling of discomfiture to the
other---( Hear)--and all this without attaining sney advantage
such as we would wish, by relieving the peasantry of the West
and South of Ireland from the burdens under which they labour.
This measure did not meet, And did not attempt to meat the
wants and wishes of the people, liis Majesty has announced
that he has in contemplation a =wire of English Church
Reform. (Cheers. ) This is a question of Y 4-4 import-
ance, perhaps more important than the reform in the
Church in Ireland, though much less encumbered with
difficulties. It is most important to establish feelings of
union and harmony between the ministers of the Church and
the people. This is on all hands admitted to be most desirable.
But the real question of Church reform which the Gaveinzaent
has propounded to the country, the ono which will be the
most important, is that which will be the most eateesive, the
safest, the most beneficial, and at the time the dearest to the
hearts of the people, I mean the reform in the English Church,
I do not think that tili3 qneFtion comes with an ill grace from
the present Administrating. Who 4 I recollect that
the fiat move in the better dietribetion q tlae revenues:
in aae Chur:th came from the same party—( retell:Woes
cheering. fpm the Ministerial side of the House)—when I
recollect that the nteasure which distributed about 300,0001.
among ;he working glom and rarer part of the clergy

, ' ...11.. ! bers formerly among the advocates of ecclesiastical reform, so far as the
Church of Ireland was concerned ; and so far also as the extension of
political privileges to the Catholics of Ireland ; while there were others
among them as strongly opposed to those measures ?—(Cheers.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in imitation of my Noble Colleague, has
thrown out certain expressions, by way of decoy to some of the members
of Earl Grey's Administration. He trusted that those Noble Lords and
Right lion. Gentlemen would not listen to the seducing language of his
Noble Friend and Colleague, nor of the lion. and Learned Gentleman;
but that they would turn a deaf ear to their voices, charm they never
so discreetly.