The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-22 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY'N, 183 b

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JUT.Y 21.
_ _ _

Mr. BERNAL, and others from the Commons, brought
up a Bill for extending the post to foreign countries, to which
they desired the concurrence of their Lordships.
ORANGE RIOTS.

Lord FARNHAM thought the circumstance of these per-
ions having been sentenced by the Learned Judge to a double
term of imprisonment, was a proof that they should not have
escaped with only half the punishment.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition from
the shipowners of Cardiff, against any alteration in the Timber
Duties.

The Marquis of BUTE presented retiticni from tin Li-
verpool Shipowners Asscciatiwle and other Ores, to the same
effect.

Lard l'DiT !MORE presented a petition from the borough
of Bridport, in favour of the Municipal Reform Bill.
The Earl of WICKLOW presented petitions from the
counties of Meath and Wicklow, against the intended Tithe
Abolition Bill. Also a petition from the Grand Jury of Wa.
terford, in favour of the Bill for the removal of the Assizes in,
Ireland.

Viscount DUNCANNON presented a petition to the same
effect from landowners and rate payers cf Waterford. Also
a petition from the same individuals, praying for an al-
teration in the present system of Grand Jury Taxation
The Marquis of WESTMEATH complained of the pre.
sent system of licensing in Ireland, and begged to ask the
Noble Viscount opposite whether the Report of the Committee
of the House of Commons of 1832 upon the subject would
be attended to ?

Viscount DUNCANNON said a clause had been intro-
duced for the regulation of licenses in the English Municipal
Corporation Reform Bill, and he believed a clause to the
same effect would be introduced in the Bill for the Reform of
Corporations in Ireland.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that could only
iffect towns.

Lord FARNHAM (we believe) thought it ought not for a
moment to be entertained that anything should be. done in the
present session with a measure of such importance as that of
the reform of Irish corporations. Documents that were not
yet on the table were necessary for a due consideration of the
subject, and its being prematurely introduced he for one
should strongly oppose.
The Earl of WICKLOW said it had given him much
pleasure to hear the Noble Viscount state that the Bill now
regulating the licenses in Ireland had not worked well, and
must be altered ; but, at the same time, he wished to observe
that that applied to the Bill as a whole, but that there were
some of its provisions not at all objectionable, and which
he should like to see continued. He trusted that such
would be the view of the Noble Viscount en further con-
sideration.

accurate information; but I am endeavouring, by pointing
out the errors of previous statements, to remove the prelimi-
nary, obstacles which I find opposed to an acquiescence in my
motion, namely, the gross exaggerations and ereoheotis ime
pressions beet hilhei.tet Thu Merin
ber for Middlesex, in the year 1824, calculated the proportion
of Protestants to Roman Catholics in Ireland, as about one to
fourteen. He assumed the number of Protestants in com-
munion with the Church, to be 400,000, whilst: ' e gross po-
pulation of the cctultry was Fe066;60. 11 ~11ft lib .11'
taken gebet pains to Make nidett. tu
the revenue of the Church of Ireland, and that after the
closest investigation of the Report, lie was disposed to esti-
mate the aIIIQUIIt Qf that revenue at 0490 Orßle ytte ftentere
He sod 1/7id tile proportion of Catholics to Protestants had in-
creased in lISSi levee '6f to i. to 11 to j ; th t in
many parishes the proportion was 40, 50, and 60 to UiL
going that this increasing disproportion in the relative numbers
of the two classes distinctly showed the worthlessness and in-
utility of the Established Church. The Hon. Gentleman
concluded by asking whether any man could be so littedy as
to say that such an establishment ought to be kept up, at an
expense of 3,000,000/. sterling per annum. It Is true that
in later times these exaggera'ted and most erroneous im-
pressions have been partly removed. When in the year 1034
the Hon. Member for St. Albans (Mr. Ward) brought for-
ward his motion on the subject of the Irish Church, he mates
rially reduced the extravagant estimates of Dr. Doyle, and
the almost equally extravagant estimates of tile lion. Member
for Middlesex—(Mr. Hume.) The Hon. Member for St.
Albans (Mr. Ward) observed that he had been furnished with
various statements showing the proportion of Protestants to
Roman Catholics in Ireland, and he said " I have no doubt
that the strongest cases have been related by those who have
put themselves in communication with me. But if in lieu of
adopting the averages which these returns would authorize me
in taking (that is, 1 in 23, or 1 in 39) I assume Wakefield's
average of 1 in 14 to be correct, I think I cannot fairly be ac-
cused of any design to diminish the numbers of the Episcopa-
lian Protestants below their real amount. This would give
600,000 in all, as the numbers of those for whose exclusive
benefit the present establishment is kept up. And what ie the
cost of this establishment ? Very nearly 1,000;000/. sterling.
The Noble Lord, in his calculation of last year did not make
it out to be so much ; but he omitted in his estimate the glebe
lands held by the clergy amounting to 85,000 acres of good
land, which at 30s. an acre, would amount to 135,0001. a year.
This, together with the bishops' lands, the ecclesiastical corpo-
rations, and the returns of tithes, will make a total of 937,4561.,
as the yearly revenue actually received by the Irish Church."
When Lord Althorp spoke upon this subject on bringing for-
ward the Church Temporalities Bill in 1833, he fairly admitted
the previous exaggerations which had existed with respect
to the actual amount of the revenues of the Church in
Ireland. " I can say conscientiously," said the Noble Lord,
" that a greater exaggeration has prevailed upon this subject
than in any political topic which I recollect. Before I looked
more narrowly into the question, I myself greatly exaggerated
to my own mind the amount of the revenues of the Irish
Church Establishment. One great exaggeration has arisen
concerning the amount of the revenues of the Bishops: I
think I shall surprise the House when I mention the amount
of all the revenues of the different sees in Ireland. The net
revenue of all the Irish Bishops is only 130,0001. a year ; the
gross revenue is 150,0001., but their net income is only
130,000/. a year. There is certainly a great tract of country
which belongs to the Bishops ; but they do not enjoy the
whole of the beneficial interest in that land. The esti-
mated amount of the annual valise of these lands is about
600,0001., of which the Bishops have only 100,0001. This
circumstance accounts for the exaggerated statements which
have obtained credit with respect to the incomes of the
Episcopacy of Ireland." Further on, the Noble Lord says,
" I think I am justified in stating that the revenue of the
Church of Ireland applicable to the support of the ministers
of that Church does not exceed 800,0001." Now in order
that you may come to a just conclusion, I ask you to ascertain
facts. I despair, I admit it in the outset, of removing the
impression which these exaggerations have made upon the
public and upon the House. You have heard of the gross
abuse of the Established Church—you have heard of its mil-
lions of revenue—you have heard of the comparatively insig-
nificant number of its members—what I despair of now is,
that when you hear the truth—although you may admit the
facts—you will not be able to struggle against the force of your
previously received, and deeply rooted erroneous impressions.
—(Hear.) You have made these statements yourselves ; you
have heard them re-echoed by your constituents in the coun-
try ; and you have taken the echo of your own delusion for an
impartial confirmation of your views of the subject.—( Hear,
hear.) But I say it is not fair to act upon these impressions,
if they are proved to be erroneous.—(Hear.) If it shall ap-
pear that the Church, instead of possessing millions, possesses
scarcely one-tenth of the sums which you have erroneously
attributed to her—if it shall appear that the members of the
Establishment, instead of amounting to 260,000, according to
the estimate of Dr. Doyle, amount in fact to 860,000 as veri-
fied by recent examination—then all I shall ask of you is to
struggle against the force of your own previous impressions—
impressions founded upon error, and to keep your minds in that
state—if not to decide in favour of my proposition, at least to
admit the entrance of the truth.—(Hear, hear.) Super-
added to the obstacle which I find in a strongly-formed pre-
vious impression, resulting from exaggerated arid erroneous in-
formation—superadded to that difficulty, and almost equally
powerful is, the resolution of this House, adopted for party
purposes, and under the influence of false impressions.—
( Cheers.) lam too deeply impressed with the paramonnt im-
portance of the subject to wish to argue it upon any other
ground than an appeal to the force of reason.—(Cries of
" Hear.") lam content to abide by that.- But I say, that,
under erroneous impressions, a powerful party in this House
has pledged itself to a resolution which, if carried out to the
full extent, would lead to the destruction of the Church, and
from which, from false delicacy and false pride, they may
find it difficult to release themselves, even when the truth is
manifestly placed before them. But if the House will con-
sent to remove these obstacles—if it will forget this resolu-
tion, founded upon erroneous impressions—if it will consent to
struggle against those impressions, founded upon false as-
sumptions of the fact and upon erroneous representations,
then, if I have to argue with generous and ingenuous minds,
I have not a doubt, if I can do justice to the question—if I
can bring before the House the grounds upon which my own
conviction is formed—that the majority of those whom I address
will vote in favour of the separation of this Bill into two parts.
Hear.) I wish, in the first instance, to state the grounds on
which I propose to argue this question. lam not about to
vindicate the maintenance of any abuse in the Irish Chitra—
-1 do not contend for the existence of any superfluous esta-
blishment in Ireland—l do not say that there ought to be
sinecures there for the purpose of maintaining learned men—
I do not say that there ought to be pluralities there for the pur-
pose of encouragingmen of family and of high birth to become
ministers of religia—l will try this question by a test which
you yourselves have taken. I waive the argument of the Act
of Union—l do not deny the force of it ; but it is not neces-
sary for me to contend that the Act of Union presents an
insuperable obstacle to your measure; but I say this, that I
will limit myself to within the circle which you, my oppo-
nents, have drawn around me.—(Cheers.) I take your admis-
Sions—l take your promises—l take your facts—(Cheers)-_I
take the result of your inquiries—l take your evidence—l will
fight you with the instruments with which you yourselves
have supplied rae.—( Cheers.) Abandoning none of my own
grounds, but occupying for the moment solely and exclusively
the position upon which you profess to maintain yourselves,
I will prove from your own inquiries—from the Report of
your own Commissioners, that the surplus of revenue, of which

,
you have said so much, is non-existent and purely visionary.—
(Cheers. ) If you abide by your own principle and give over
admissions, I will prove not only that you have no surplus to
dispose of, but that the pretence of there being a surplus is a
dishonest one--(Cheers)—and that to talk of the application
of a surplus is only to encourage delusive hopes, and to under-
mine the Protestant Church in Ireland by the establishment
of a false principle.—( Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord has
brought in a Bill, the object of one part of which is to pro-
vide for the realization of that part of the property of the
Church which consists of tithe—the other part assumes that
there is a surplus to dispose of; and, therefore, in the preamble
of the Bill the Noble Lord declares that it is important that
the surplus should be applied to other purposes than those im-
mediately connected with the ecclesiastical purposes of the
Establishment. It is necessary, therefore, in order to give a
foundation for the motion which I shall make, that I should
consider the bearing of the first part of the Noble Lord's Bill
supposing that the Noble Lord shall succeed in carrying it.
First let me consider the bearing of this Bill upon a measure
which passed in 1832, and which was brought forward with
the unanimous consent of the Government of that day, I mean
the Bill which went to suppress ten out of twenty-two Bi-
shoprics in Ireland, and which is commonly known by the
name of the Irish Church Temporalities Bill. That Bill,
when brought forward in the House of Lords by Earl Grey,
was described as a Bill for effecting an important Reform in
the Church of Ireland. The summary given by Lord Grey
of the Church Temporalities' Bill, was to this effect. In the
first place the Bill relieved the occupying tenant and the land-
lord in Ireland altogether from any contribution towards the
expense required for building and repairing Churches in
that country.—( Hear' hear, hear.) It did away altogether
with what was called Church toss, and provided that the
whole of that charge—which had previously been borne
by the land of Ireland—should thereafter be borne by the
revenue of the Church. Lord Grey estimated that
the charge thus to be provided for out of the Church funds
would be to the following amount—church cess 60,000/. a-
year. Another great object contemplated by the Church
Temporalities Bill was the augmentation of small livings in
Ireland. The House of Commons, by a distinct resolution,
had acceded to this proposition—that where there was anq
parish of the value of less than 2001. a-year, in that case, out
of the revenues of the Church,-not out of any public fund,
the value of the living should be increased to 2001. a-year.
By an almost universal consent, the House determined that
2001. a-year should be taken as the minimum value of every
living in Ireland. I believe that the resolution embodying
that view of the House was carried unanimously. The Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Middlesex grumbled a little, but
did not take the sense of the House upon it. And at a sub-
sequent period the Hon. Gentleman very candidly and gene-
rously said that 3001. a-year was not too much for men occu-
pying such a situation as that of the Clergy of the Estab-
lished Church in Ireland. The House of Commons, there-
fore, having, by an almost unanimous vote, admitted the pro-
priety of raising ail livings under 2001. a-year in Ireland to
the full amount of 200/. Lord Grey estimated tho•cost of
such an augmentation of livings at 46,500/. Then theie
were several parishes in Ireland which had no Churches,'
and in which it was necessary that Churches should be pro-
vided. The charge of building these' Churches Lord Grey
estimated at 20,000/., and the cost of providing new glebe
houses he estimated at 10;000/.;,: so that the' total -charge
arising-carder the operation of- tho Bill would amount to nct

less than 136,5001. Lord Grey then Fetii !filt4 ster estimate
of the funds out of which for the future these charges ii'ete.
to be defrayed. These funds, arising from various sources,
from stippressed bishoprice, the tax on bishops and. incum-
bents,, the tale pf glebe lends; tke., the Noble Earl estimated
at 105,0001. Now I win ld fhe attention of the House
to the real:state of the case. I find that inSteed pfehe 155,0001.
which Lord Grey supposed would be realized for Pee pur-
pose of meeting the charge of Church cess, the real amount
ef.retentfC new bi the poalession of the Ecclesiastical Com-
tHOidf4Sefi Tettignrelities Bill is 29,127/.;
whilst the estimated charge for the futufti repnlre of 411,rchel
is 25,000/.; end the amount of other charges formerly de-
creer:l cot, of the proceeds of the vestry cess, is 34,4121. In-
dopkeiently of tkiis, trie ap.ettlea of the Board itself amounts
to nearly 10,060/, .a year; so that the perrriallern teernge ex--
q 'the edierni§iibriera .areounti to nearly 70,0001.,
whilst, as I have before staiej, ;fa ieless than 30,0001.
—( Hear, hear.) This being the case, it was esSessesary for
the Commissioners to take as me step to meet the difficulty of
their situatioe I and, as is often the case in Ireland, they have
succeeded in realizing a debt.—(A laugh.) They have raised
on account of cs stain prOpereles a sum of 52,000/., and they
er poet to havc eat sum increased to 63,000/4 but still, upon
elite year's income and expenditure, they have a deficit of
40,0001.—shear)—And at the same time no provision has yet
been made for repairing or building churches, for augmenting
smell livings, or ereeting globe
_houses.—( Uear, bear. ) When
the changes propoacd id be effected by the Church Tempo-
ralities Bill were in contemplatien, it of course became
necessary to make a calculation as to whether the fund to be
placed at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
would be a productive fund. The Noble Lord ( Stanley)
the Member for Lancashire, calculated that there would be
a tax upon incomes derivable feem livings ia Ireland, which
would yield an amount of "Ij-1,000/. a-year, and the Noble
Lord provided, wisely, as think, that all sinecures, as
they fell in, should be carried to the perpetuity fund, for the
purpose of meeting the charges thigh would he made upon it.
Now supposing that a permanent income of :12,0001. a-year
should be realized from this source, and that the tatessal out-
,going of 70,0001. a year- should continue, when will the
!annual income of- the Ecclesiastical Commissioners be equal
'to the amount .of the contemplated expenditure ? And whilst
the annual amount of income continues less than the an-
nual amount of expenditure, what must be the ultimate
amount of debt which the Commissioners must necessarily
incur to meet the demands which will be made upon them ?
, [Here the Right Hon. Baronet entered into a statement
to show that the funds at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners could never—or, if ever, only at a very re-
mote period—be made to s field sufficient to meet the charges
which, by the Temporalities Bill, had been imposed upon
them.] The Noble Lord by the present Bill destroys the
calculation which was made on the introduction of the Church
Temporalities Bill, and upon the supposed accuracy of which
that Bill proceeded. He shows that the prospect of gain is
very remote, and that he has not the slightest hope of receiv-
ing any repayment of the advance which lie assigned to the
clergy in liquidation of any claims for any loss they might
have sustained in consequence of the operation of the Bill.
Therefore the effect of the Noble Lord's Bill is to postpone
altogether the object contemplated by the Church Tempera-
, lilies Bill. In the preamble of the latter you declared that
three things were necessary for the permanence and stability
of the Church in Ireland, viz., the increase of small livings,
and the building and repairing of churches and glebe-houses.
The Bill you have now brought in destroys altogether the
hope of soon being enabled to provide for these objects, and
postpones to an indefinite period the realization of any surplus.
Let us now consider what will be the effect of this Bill on
the permanent revenue of the Church in Ireland, consisting
of tithes. It will affect that revenue in more ways than one.
There is a certain process in mathematics called the process
of exhaustion, and a more complete and successful manner in
which that process is proposed to be applied by this Bill to the
revenue of the Irish Church never was contemplated by the
greatest mathematician that ever lived.--( Opposition cheers.)
There are three main processes of exhaustion directed by
this Bill against tithe. The first is the deduction of three-
tenths from the amount of composition ; the next is the power
of re-opening the compositions already effected ; and the third
consists in this provision, that whereas the existing compo-
sitions were calculated upon the average of prices taken
during seven years at a former period, those averages shall
now be entirely set aside, and shall, by the direction of the
Commissioners of Woods and Forests, be supplanted by new
averages, to be taken on the calculation of the prices of corn
for the last seven years. Now, with respect to the deduction
of the three-tenths, that amount differs but very little from
the deduction proposed to be made by my Right Hon. and
Gallant Friend the late Secretary for Ireland ; and certainly,
if you transfer the charge of tithe from the occupying tenant,
who is now liable by law, and impose the obligation of paying
it upon the landlord, who is not now legally liable, I do not
think you could do that with justice, without making a con-
siderable abatement in: the amount. My present intention,
therefore, is riot to complain of the provisions of the Bill. Un-
doubtedly, I do decidedly object to many of its provisions ;
but my main object now is to show the effect this Bill will
have on the revenue of the Irish Church. lam assuming the
principle of the Bill to be correct, and that the first part of it
will take place, and then, postponing the consideration of its
justice, I wish to show what will be the effect of that part of
the Bill on the revenue of the Irish Church. In the first
place, then, a deduction is', to be made from that revenue to
the amount of three-tenths, in consideration of the substitu-
tion of a rent-charge for !tithe composition ; in the second
place, the composition is to be re-opened ; and, in the third
place, a new average of seven years, founded on a calculation
of prices for the last seven years, is to be substituted in the
case of every composition that has been entered into by the
clergyman, under the faith and assurance of an average calcu-
lated upon a former seven years.—( Opposition cheers.) The
effect of the reduction of three-tenths is obvious ; let us,
therefore, see, what will be the effect of the other two, pro-
cesses of exhaustion. The effect of re-opening the composition
cannot be given. I may, however, observe, that the decision as
to such re-opening is not vested in the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland in Council, but is to rest with three gentlemen sitting
in Whitehall-place, constituting the Board of Woods and Fo-
rests, and the Lord-Lieutenant is to be a mere ministerial and
subordinate agent for carrying their orders into execution ;
and these orders may be issued upon the application of a
certain number of persons who shall state that they are ag.
grieved by the existing composition. Now I admit there may
be instances in which the composition ought to be re-
opened. There may be some single instance of fraud ; I
know not how that may be. I have heard that there are such
cases ; and if there should be any clear and notorious fraud
established, no one could require of the aggrieved party an
exact performance of an agreement so tainted. But here is
a proposition to be decided upon by the Commissioners of
Woods and Forests, that on the application of certain parties,
every composition with the clergyman must be re-opened—it
must be so, I apprehend. What must be the consequence
of these re-openings, and in what a position do you place
every clergyman in Ireland?—( Opposition cheers.) You gave
the parties concerned in these compositions the power of ap-
peal—you gave them the power of an occasional revision of
their compositions—but now you state that before converting
definitively the claim into a rent-charge, these compositions
may be re-opened, and the expense of it may also fall upon the
clergyman.—( Opposition cheers.) You expect this clergyman
to defend not only his own interests, but the interests of the
Church in the recovery of its permanent revenue. Ile may
be appointed to a living in which his predecessor—and it may
be his two immediate predecessors have made a composition in
the persuasion that no legal evidence of it would be required,
and therefore none was prepared ; or it may be that the evi-
dence has since destroyed; and yet you call upon this Un-
fortunate man to defend the composition upon the ground
of the interest during his life which he has in the
receipt of it, that is to say, here is a clergyman unable for the
last four years to recover his tithes in consequence of the op-
position of his parishioners to the payment of them, and yet
you expect, from his zeal for the permanent interests of the
Church, that he will undertake the defence of a composition
made perhaps fourteen or fifteen years ago, and in respect of
which he has no kind of evidence whatever. And what is
the tribunal before which this composition is to be re-opened ?
It is to consist of three itinerant barristers. There may be a
clergyman possessed of four or five benefices, from which lie
has probably not received any thing for the laSt three or four
years, but is living with his family starving around him. The
Commissioners of Woods and Forests may determine that the
compositions in these benefices shall be re-opened, and imme-
diately this destitute clergyman is visited with the treble curse
of three barristers, who, in their discretion, may determine
that their fees of five guineas each a day, besides their tra-
velling expenses shall be paid by Hear, hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) Now, take the case of a clergyman
of 150/. or 200/. a year nominal income, not one shilling of
which has he relized during the last four years, and then Just
conceive on a fine summer's morning a barouche and four
driving up to his dwelling with three barristers inside, who
came to tell him that they were appointed by the Woods
and Forests to re-open the compositions of his parish at the
moderate charge of five guineas a day each, beside travelling
expenses.—(Loud laughter.) Why, what a mockery it
is.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) What possible
hope is there that no effectual opposition can be made to
the opening of these compositions on the part of a man who
has not been able for the last three or four years to realize one
single farthing.__( Opposition cheers) ? To what
-extent this
will go to diminish the income of the Church it is impossible
for me to calculate. But it is the vexation and the injustice
which will be done by encouraging every party to open com-
positions which, in most cases, have been made voluntarily, and
if not, still made by the appointment of an arbitrator, against
whose decision there was a pow er of appeal. To give parties
under such circumstances a power to re-open those composi-
tions is a proposition fraught with greater injustice than any
other act I ever heard of.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition).
That, then, is the second step taken by the Noble Lord to di-
minish the revenue of the Irish Church. The third process
is the substitution of averages formed on prices of the last
seven years, iii lieu of those averages which formed the standard
of existing compositions. In order to explain the effect of
this, it is necessary shortly to state what is the principle of the
existing compositions. They were in the first instance pro-
vided for by a Bill which was brought in by my Right Hon.
Fi iend (Mr. Goulburn) in 1823, which was amended by a
second Bill also introduced by my Right lion. Friend in
1824, under which the greater part of the compositions
have been made. By the latter Bill it was provided that
an option should. be given to the parties for making the
composition for tithes which should endure for twenty one
years. " Most of the compositions entered into under the
Bill of my Right Honourable Friend were for twenty-one
years, consequently the compositions which were entered
into in 1824, renewable at seven years, under my Right
Hon. Friend's first Bill, Would continue - till 1831 inclue
sive, while those that were entered into under his amended
Bill for 21 yew, wOuld continue until the year 1'545, water an

, .. a -----
invariable averan-e--thatla, q; veers were to elapse befere the
standard was to be varied. A Iliti was then brought in by the
Not,it lut4 (itanley) in the year 1832, which made it coin;
pulsory, in all caaei alliere no composition had been entercd
into, that a composition aftould take place. It also provided
that in those cases under my Right Hon. Friend's Bill where
the composition was renewable every seven years, it should
still continue renewable, and that in those cases where tt'e
tataaposition was entered into for twenty-one years, the cornpea..
sition for that period should remain without disturbance ; h"'
the Noble Lord paatidad that at the expiration of the twcntY-
one years, the composition should be open to a revision On I
r'et'ying aeale of averages. The compositions entared into
under the &ill of my Right Hon. Friend for 3 and t 1 years
would not expire until the years 1845 and 1851 ; and the corn:
positions entered into under the Bill of the Noble Lord would
not expire until the years 1840 and 1841. Then let us se°
what it is that this Bill does. It provides that in lieu of the
standard which has been adopted in the making of the present
compositions a new standard shall be adopted, and a new eve"
raae of prices shall be taken and substituted for the aveog'
which has been already taken by the consent of the parties'
And what is this new average ? It is to be the averaget.
of the last seven years immediately preceding the passing 0
this Bill ; that is to say, the average is to be taken during a
period when it is notorious the price of corn has been ex,
tremely low.-( Great Opposition cheers.) The average 0
seven years, ending tile Ist of November, 1821 (that taken by
my Right lion. Friend), was regulated by these prices-viy
wheat, 1/. 15s. 10:W. per quarter, and oats, 13s. 11V. 114'e
average taken by the Noble Lord (Stanley) was the seven
,
years preceding the Ist November, 1830, when the price 0'
wheat was 1/. 12s. 0.1,d., and of oats, 13s. This Bill super-
sedes those averages, and applies a new average fountlad e'''
the seven years preceding the date of the Bill itself ; wl"e1)
wheat, instead of being at it. 15s. 10;1., is only at 1/. 10s. 11°,,,;
and oats, instead of being at 13s. 11V., is only 1 Is. 8:r.
The joint operation of forcibly adopting this new standard, in"
stead of the two preceding standards, will be to diminish the
amount of the revenue sixteen per cent., or one-sixth of the
whole. That sixteen per cent. is, therefore, to be added to
the three-tenths, and to the deduction that will be effected by
;a-opening the compositions. Let us see the effect of these
reamaaMns on a clergyman having a living of 100/. a ye,a;:
tithe comiaTagitien ; and, next, on a person having a living yyt,'
a nominal incon::' of 6001. a year ; and next let us mark 10°
effect of this ingeniou; urocess of exhaustion on the revenees
of the Church gonerally.--( Hear, hear.) First, the 1001
a-year will, by the deduction of three-tenths, be reduced t°,
701. To what extent it will be redneed, by the re-opening 0;
the composition, I cannot say ; but there will be the fees and
travelling expenses of the thice Barristers to be deducted
But I have got a calculation of what will be the effect of the,'
forcible adoption of the new average, namely, a deiaaction 0;
one-sixth, which on 70/. will be la. 10-a ; therefore the 100 b
will be melted down to 58/. 10a. But that is the sum which
t
the Commissioners of Woods and Forests are to receivea-n
the Clergyman-for lie is to be charged sixpence in the pot
for collection, being 1/. 95., consequently all that the Clergy':
man will receive out of the 100/. will be 57/. ls., independe°`
of any reduction on account of opening the composition. The
as to the effect of the Bill on the 6001. nominal income. li'e
three-tenths will reduce 6001. to 4201. The one-sixth dedl
tion, on account of the new average, will be 70/., which air
sweat down the 4201. to 3501. The sixpence in the pound .I.°
collection will be 8/. 15s. Thus reducing the 600/. to 3411 ".'ci
But that is not all : there is a tax of 2,1 per cent, to be Ps'
on this sum, under the Church Temporalities' Bill-(OW'
sition cheers)-which, amounting to 81. 10s., will bring the
happy possessor of a nominal living of 600/., down to an le:
come of 332/. 15s. Now, supposing this man should keeP ;
curate, and have insured his life at 40/. a-year, I will le°,;
it to the House to judge what the position of such a pers°.
must be. The only point on which a doubt can be enter
tamed as to the accuracy of this view of the case is as to
having overrated the effect of the new corn average. Put t,
there be any error in that respect, I think I can fairly'lf
against it the effect of re-opening the composition. I vq,l
now consider what will be the effect of this Bill on the I,°:
come of the Irish Church generally ; and this, after all, is t""
most important consideration. Let us first ascertain Wit?"
under the machinery of this Bill, will be the productive lt
venue of the Irish Church. I have taken pains to ascertri
what is the real amount of the gross composition for cleric;
tithes payable to the parochial incumbents. The two Nob.
Lords in their estimates have included the lay tithes ; but it '5
not necessary for me to encumber myself with those tithes'
The gross amount of composition for lay tithes was stated übe
the Noble Lord to be 123,0001. For our purpose it is cl"
clear that amount ought to be excluded from our calculation'
I am now dealing with the revenue of the Church, and O
sidering what will be its productive revenue. In the Noble
Lord's estimate of ecclesiastical tithe he included tithe r'i
ceivable by the Bishop. Now I apprehend that portion I's
tithe ought also to be excluded from our calculation, because the
whole amount of the Bishops' incomes is provided for by t. 5
Church Temporalities Bill, and any tithes receivaWe by thei°'e
paid over to the Commissioners under that Bill. It: the Id
way I omit all consideration of tithe due to the &all
chapters, because those tithes go to the repairs of the eatheorebeg
and where adean receives tithe as being attached to a church, !
will fall into the gross estimate of the tithe composition Pa);
able to clerical incumbents. Now, from the best calculatl°.
I can make, after a careful revision of the whole of the parisi..
7f
from which returns have been, receivod, the gross amount,
tithe composition payable to parochial incumbents, excludn't
bishops, deans, and chapters, and vicars choral, is 507,361
That is the total amount on which the parochial clergy of Ire.;
land can depend for their maintenance. I will now consit
in what way that gross amount can be affected by this 0%1:-
before I determine what will .be the surplus applicable '-
other purposes. Three-tenths of 507,3671. are '152,7001.'":,„
thus reducing the income to 354,667/. Then sixpence in tu"
pound, to be paid to the collector, will amount to 8,8721_41
this will reduce the total amount to 345,795/. But I ITUP.„
again remark that I am enable to estimate the reduction b 1
re-opening the compositions. lint applying the principle!
estimating the reduction of one-sixth on account of the Tl'
stitution of a new corn average., a further sum of 57,63#'
must be deducted. Thus the total amount of the Irish Pe;
rochial tithes, under the ingenious process of exhaust'tiee
established by this Bill, instead of being 507,367/. Will "t
reduced to 288,163/. I will, in this stage of my argumeti;
just compare the amount to which I have reduced of
tithes of Ireland, with the estimate of Dr. Doyle, or raille
with the more modest estimate of the Honou'rable Gentle
man, the Member for Middlesex. Upon the closest cale!„,111;
lion, that Honourable Gentleman found the amount of Chore.
property to be 3,200,000/.-( Loud laughter.) I ask whet„,",
I was unseasonable in impressing on Hon. Members the
_.„`"";
cessity of guarding against the force of these early impressiro
which, unconsciously to themselves,- might have prodnee°,lo
most unfavourable prejudice with regard to this question- e
addition to the 218,1631. derived from tithes, it is, of roars h ;
fair that I should add the amount of Ministers' money an° l'Aa
amount of glebe. The Noble Lord estimated the glob,' r;
65,000/. It is but fair that I should say, that instead of nuer.;
ting that estimate, I think lie would be right to take it at,
higher value, namely, 76,778/. I believe the amount of A oof
nisters' money is 12,8381., consequently the total revenue
the parochial Clergy in Ireland derivable from every eadire,,s
from tithe, glebe, and Ministers' money-will be 377,7'iba
Although this may be the total amount of revenue, a'et„,e(l
immediate subject of our deliberation is as to the tithe reena
from the land in Ireland, which I estimate at 288,1631. do
d'scussing this subject now, we have an advantage which 1,,,e,
not lightly estimate--that is, the advantago of having the !de
port of the Commissions, which we bad not when the 14°"'0,
pledged itself to a resolution as to a surplusreYenne.-( °Pl),to
sition cheers.) I did all I could to prevail upon the House' rt
postpone that resolution until those who called for theaßent
ti
were in possession of it ; but the House refuses{ to lietire,
that course, and pledged themselves that there Ernst he a
ci 0
plus applicable to other objects, before they were in pa'ssesitcaa
of a Report, which was to show to us the real condition °',ero
Irish Church revenue. It appears from this Report that SPh.e.,
are in Ireland 1,335 benefices. There are 264 of these' 01
nefices, in which there are fewer than 50 Protestants.
_.4
course it is obvious that there is a material distinction betvx'f
benefices and parishes. A benefice may conaist of one of °..
many parishes. There arc in Ireland 2,505 separate parishes '
but there are only 1,385 benefices. Now, as I stated befere;
I wish to argue this question upon ground's afforded me by tt v
King's Government. Ido not wish to argue it upon 31,
principles assumed by myself. From the principles of the
King's Government I dissent ; but for the purpose of Of .14
gument I assume them to be correct. But, even assumal yr
that, I contend that they ought to accede to my motion, am,:,
separate this Bili into two distinct measures.-(Opposite,
cheers.) My object now is to show-giving them every advro
tage on the principle, and arguing from their own evidence---t" r
on their own admission they have no surplus to apply to otbep
purposes, and that they are bound by consistency and by
eo,
adherence to their own principles, not to alienate this Prs
perty.-( Opposition cheers.) Out of the 1,385 benefice:
there are 264 having fewer than 50 Protestant inhabits°ts.,,
There are therefore 1,121 benefices with more than 50 f ''f
_ . ..

testants. I object to the principle of an union ofparisltes'i
think whenever you make a reform in the Church of Irebt-,"
you ought to sever the unions, and ought to constitute each Po
rish as a scat of parochial Government. I make no doTtae-el
from this country to build churches in Ireland. This et ,i—pd
from necessity, and lam bound to abide by it. But I
shall
myself. also upon this ground, that the parochial cess for
provided out of the ecclesiastical revenues ; that moll' re-
building glebe-houses, and for keeping the churches
pair, shall also be provided out of the ecclesiastical revell,lot
If these things are to be done, and if you make to me :of
admission, then I tell you that you have not one shillblotiro
surplus to apply to other purposes. If you intend to =build
to the clerical incumbent 2001. a-year—if you intend to s,
glebe houses and parish churches—give me these adttlissi-l'si..
and I will again tell you that you must accede to my Pr°l3oo
tion, and separate these measures. But if you abandon 100
principle involved in these admissions, and confine vourtiob
only to making the revenue uphold the condition of the "-di,
Church according to your own principle—that of Wig id
vine service performed, and maintaing a separate roiniste:vell
every parish where there are more than 50 Protestants,'
then, I say, if my estimate of the revenue be correct, P)%l -be-
will not have any surplus to dispose of. You have I,l2inot
nitices with more than 50 Protestants. Now divide the tirs'
of the tithe composition, exclusive of the glebe and minister,money, by these I,l2l—supposing it were desirable to aP:,e
lion them equally—in that case there will not bo akve„riiirc.a
of tithe appropriated to each benefice throughout lar,"6/
(which has more than fifty Protestants) of. more than "-t•,:re,
year.—( Great Opposition checrincr.) But, as I. said be,'-tbo
every one who has discussed this subject has admitted that we
union of parishes into a benefice is a great evi4.and that
and
ought to sever the parishes in all cases where practicable! tbo
constitute them independent parishes. That has WI ,tbo
principle of Lord Plunkett; Sir John Newport,
other eminent men who have devoted themselves tolhet.os
pct.'. Now, suppsing this principle to be adopted,' "