The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, JULY 2, 1835.

et-
attended Mr. O'Malley professionally since 1831 ; that the
constitution of that gentleman was then remarkably feeble ;
that he had lost one eye by erripsis, and was in danger of
losing the other, being under the influence of an idiopathic
disease, which was dangerous to the constitution ; that he had
seen him that day, and found him suffering evidently from con-
finement, and was of opinion that he would continue to suffer,
end that his life would be brought into danger if further con-
fined ; that in 1832 he had found it absolutely necessary to
order him to leave the atmosphere of London, and had recom
mended him to go to Madeira or Italy ; and that, in short, his
constitution was very fragile.
The witness then withdrew ; and amid cries of " Move I"
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON rose, and asked if it were the
wish of the House that any other medical gentleman should
attend ?—(Cries of " No, no.") He would then at once move
that Mr. O'Malley be called to the bar, and discharged on
payment of his fees.
The motion was agreed to.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
The Order of the Day for the adjourned debate on this
sehject having been read,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL roac for the purpose of moving
an amendment to the motion which bad been made on a for.
seer occasion. I shall not (said the Noble Lord) enter into
the consideration of the various argqments which may be ad-
deced on one side or on the other of the question involved
in it ; but I wish to address the House, in consequence of com-
munications which I have had with various parties to whom the
question is one of the greatest importance—both those who
urged the propriety of this grant to the Church of Scotland,
and those who have felt the strongest objections to its being
trade. I have the satisfaction of stating, that both parties
appeared to me to be perfectly willing to have a full and
fair inquiry on the subject, and quite ready to abide by
the result of facts accurately ascertained, and that they
were both willing that this inquiry should be conducted
by a Commission—the one party seeming to think it better than
a Committee, and the other seeming to think it quite as good
and effectual. A difference appeared to arise between the two
parties on this point—those who were seceders from the
Church of Scotland said that they had been unjustly and un-
fairly omitted from the accounts which had been made of*the
population now able to attend divine worship. Whether such
may be the case or not, those who appear on the part of the
Church of Scotland in this metropolis, and who lately pre-
sented an Address to his Majesty on the Throne, are perfectly
willing that an account should be taken of all the means and
opportunities of public worship which are afforded ; so that
in this material point there does not seem to be any difference
between the two parties. There is, however, a question—
partly of fact and partly of principle—which still remains to
be decided. Those who are in favour of this grant urge that
when you have taken into account all those means of accommo-
dation which the Established Church of Scotland is able to
afford, and when you have added to them those means of wor-
ship and means of instruction which are now afforded by the
acceding or dissenting ministry, there remains still a large
mass of the population to whom no sufficient religious instruc-
tion is afforded, and by whom the means of religious worship, if
they are to be at all obtained, are to be obtained only at a
price—at a sacrifice of money which the poorer classes are
unable to make. The statement of opinion which, no doubt,
will always be made by those who dissent front the Church,
and who disapprove of any establishment, is that religion will
never flourish so well as when left to the voluntary support of
those who may be inclined to attend divine worship. On that
question of principle I do not wish to enter ; for I can give
but one opinion—l can hold but one doctrine on that subject
—namely, that a Church Establishment affords the best means
of diffusing and promoting religious instruction.—( Cheers.)
I think it our duty, as a Government, to maintain that prin-
ciple, and to uphold the Church Establishment which is
founded on it. There is, then, another question remaining,
the issue of which depends, however, on certain facts, whicb
should be correctly ascertained before Parliament comes to a
final decision upon it. If it be true—and I will not now pre-
tend to dispute the point with those who are acquainted with
the state of circumstances so much better than myself—if it
be proved that there is a large mass of the population to
whom the means of religious instruction are not afforded—
either by the Church or by those who dissent from it, there
. remains, then, the question, whether you are obliged to
supply that deficiency by an immediate grant from the pub-
lic funds—( Hear, hear)—or whether there exist the neces-
sary means which are now by law, or which may become
by law, available for the purpose of the Established Church.
I think that it is impossible for us, as Ministers, to come to
Parliament and propose any grant of money until the facts
upon which the decision of that question ought to depend shall
be clearly settled; anti therefore, in my opinion, the proposi-
tion of the Right lion. Gentleman, which was supported by
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for the county of Edin-
burgh (Sir G. Clerk), is defective in this—that it does not
propose the means of entering into an inquiry with the view
to effect that settlement. That Right lion. Baronet stated
that the inquiry would be short and easy ; that it would be
sufficient to have the Committee for a week or ten days ; that
a Report might then be made, which would satisfactorily prove
the case of the petitioners who had asked for the grant. I
must fairly tell the Right Honourable Baronet that I do
not think that an inquiry of that kind would be satisfactory ; I
think that if the inquiry were to be conducted for a week or
ten days, and only the partial case of those who ask for the
grant were heard, and if we then proceeded to yield that
grant, we should act against the wishes of a great part of
the people of Scotland, who would say that the evidence
which they were prepared to adduce not being heard, we
had come to a decision partially and unfairly, and after
considering only one side of the question. It is for rea-
sons of this kind, I believe, that those who are most earnest
for this inquiry are, at the same time, desirous that it should
be conducted in such a manner as may satisfy all parties ; and
that object will, in my opinion, be best attained by the appoint-
ment of a -Commission, to whom the conduct of it shall be in-
trusted. It may be urged as an objection, that the Commis-
sion might extend its labours to an inconvenient length ; but
that will be obviated by arranging that they shall re-
port from time to time, that their reports shall he laid be-
fore Parliament, and that as soon as Parliament and the Go-
vernment shall have considered them, and ascertained that a
remedy is required, and settled the nature of that remedy,
they shall proceed at once to act upon them. I shall there-
fore propose to my Right Hon. Friend that his motion be
withdrawn, and that the following proposition be substituted
in its stead :—" That a humble address be presented to his
Majesty, praying that his Majesty will be graciously pleased
to appoint a Commission to inquire into the opportunities
of religious worship, and means of religious instruction,
and the pastoral superintendence afforded to the people
of Scotland, and how far these are of avail for the reli-
gious and moral improvement of the poor, and of the working
classes, and with this view to obtain information respecting
their stated attendance at places of worship, and their actual
connection with any religious denomination ; to inquire what
funds are now, or may hereafter, be available for the purpose
of the Established Church of Scotland ; and to report, from
time ttetime, in order that such remedies may be applied to
any existing evils, as Parliament may think fit." I have com-
municated this motion, in the terms in which I have drawn it
up, to some persons of great eminence in the Church of Scot-
land, who have been most anxious that the grant should he
procured, and they have expressed their concurrence in it. I
think, that if they concur in it—if there be no objection made
to it on their part, who belong to that religious denomination
which composes the Established Church—there ought to be
an equal concurrence on the part of others, the object of all
being the same. I trust, therefore, that there will not arise
on it much debate, and that the House will not be pressed to
division on it.
ti Sir W. RAE was understood to ask whether if it was deter-
mined that a grant should be made to the Church of Scotland,
such a grant should apply to the whole of Scotland ?
Lord J. RUSSELL replied certainly:
Mr. C. BRUCE said that the amendment which had been
proposed by the Noble Lord had struck him to be nearly if
not equally objectionable as that which had been submitted
by the Learned Lord (the Lord Advocate) on a former
evening. •
Lord J RUSSELL proposed that the amendment of his
Learned Friend, the Lord Advocate, should be withdrawn.
The former amendment having been accordingly withdrawn,
and Lord John Russell's amendment put from the Chair,
Mr. BRUCE resumed—He felt bound in the first place to
notice the entire omission of any specific allusion to the Es.
tablished Church in the amendment of the Noble Lord.
Lord J. RUSSELL expressed his dissent. .
Mr. BRUCE thought that the direction given to the Com-
missioners to inquire " what funds arc or may hereafter be
available for the purpose of the Established Church of Scot-
land," would be the means of throwing a firebrand amongst the
inhabitants of that country, by raising a question as to whether
any unexhausted teinds might be appropriated towards spread-
ing the religious instruction of the Established Church. He
could not conceal from the House, or the Noble Lord oppo-
site (Lord J. Russell), that when he recollected the speech
made by the Noble Lord,. he Secretary for Ireland, on intro-
ducing to the House the Bill with regard to the Irish Church,
he could not place the most implicit reliance on the profes-
sions which he that night made relative to the religious este.
blishment of Scotland. He admired the tone—he cheered the
sentiment which the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland ex-
pressed a few nights ago, when in the strongest terms and most
beautiful periods—dn language not more remarkable for its
force than the justness of conclusion which it conveyed—he
declared his strong attachment to the principles of a Church
Establishment, and his determination to extend its instruction
in such a manner as that it should supply the spiritual wants,
not only of any family residing in a remote parish of Ireland,
but those of any family which might happen to pass through
such a district.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) The
wayfaring man was to receive its benefit and rejoice. But
when the Noble Lord came to reduce his principle to practice
—when he came to show in what way he meant to fulfil
- these magnificent promises—when the allowance of a stipend
of 5/. a year to a neighbouring clergyman was the superstruc-
ture which he raised on the proud basis which he had laid
down, he (Mr. Bruce) appealed to the House whether he was
not justified in saying that on that occasion, at least, " the
promise had been made to the ear, and broken in the sense "
_( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He was disposed,
therefore, coupling the speech of the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for Ireland with that of the Learned Lord Advocate on'a
former night, the latter of which, in his opinion, threatened
war to the knife to every religious establishment, to prefer the
original motion of his Right Hon. Friend to the amendment
moved by the Noble Lord. He regretted that an adjourn-
ment of the question took place, for he was apprehensive that
the impression which had been made upon the House by the
powerful speech of the lion. Member for Bute had been dis-
sipated during the time which had elapsed since the expression
of his opinions on this subject. He (Mr. Bruce) deprecated
the introduction of party views into the discussion of such
questions, for they had the effect of disturbing that calmness
and equity by which their proceedings should be marked—

( Hear, hear.) He must be allowed to recommend, as
an example worthy to be followed by the present Ad-
ministration, the disinterested attachment manifested by
the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth to an
Established Church, which displayed itself in every act of his
Administration.—( A laugh.) Hon. Members opposite (on
the Ministerial side) might laugh ; but he would tell them that
if they followed the same course as the Right Hon. Baronet,
even at a humble distance, in the affairs of the Church, they
would be able to secure the support of those whose counte-
nance was essential to their giving universal satisfaction as an
Administration. With regard to the question immediately be-
fore the House, he would say that if he thought a connection
between any religion and the State likely to prove injurious,
or that the voluntary system could insure the religious instruc-
tion of the whole of the people of Scotland, he should be the
last man to say one word in favour of the petitioners, who pro-
fessed their attachment to the Church of Scotland, and who
expressed a hope that is religious benefits might be diffused as
widely as possible. He did not, however, think that the Noble
Lord was justified in alluding to the relative merits of an Esta-
blished Church and the adoption of the voluntary principle, be-
cause he did not consider the House a fair tribunal for the discus-
sion of such a question, and because that question was not neces-
sarily raised by the motion of his Right lion. Friend. When-
ever that question should be brought before the House he would
be prepared to show that Scripture reason, the experience of
every age and of all nations, not only sanction the institution
of a Church Establishment, but (as had been well said in the
discussion on a former night) the State which neglected to es-
tablish such an institution, failed to discharge the first duty
which it owed to its subjects, and to the Almighty power, on
which the prosperity of all nations depended.—( Hear, hear.)
Those who supported the amendment of the Noble Lord ex-
pressed their concurrence in the principle of an Established
Church. The question, then, before the House, resolved itself
into a question of fact, as to whether or not the Church Esta-
blishment was sufficiently extended in Scotland to supply re-
ligious instruction to the people ? It was stated in those peti-
tions to which his Right Hon. Friend had called the attention
of the douse, that a great mass of the people who could de-
rive no benefit from the establishment of the voluntary prin-
ciples(for their poverty would form the stumbling-hlfek
in the way of having theirsreligious wants supplied) was fast
lapsing into a state of absolute infidelity. It puzzled him,
therefore, how the Noble Lord and his colleagues could pre-
tend to be friends to the Church, and vet refuse to accede to '
that proposition of his Right Hon. 'Friend, by which full
information would be attained on the allegations contained
in the numerous petitions to the House on the subject, and
the means of preventing the evils to which they referred
would be best secured.—( Hear, hear.) Those who advo-
cated the voluntary principle seemed to forget that a large
class of the community could not receive any religious bene-
fits under such system ; that the natural mind of man was
influenced by a feeling of animosity against the Almighty,
and that precisely in proportion that the interests of reli-
gion should be attended to by them, they were unwilling
to make any sacrifice to obtain its advantages. Allusion had
on a former occasion been made to those countries in which
it was said that the voluntary principle was established with
success, and France and America were particularly referred
to. In the former, a system prevailed under which all reli-
gions were established, and by which he could not help
thinking that a sort of premium was held out to dissent, and
no distinction was drawn between truth and error. In Ame-
rica no religion was established, and there a spirit of immo-
rality and infidelity was widely diffused. He had heard, on
good authority, of a Presbyterian clergyman who officiated
for two years in a district there, but who was unable to pro-
cure the means of decent subsistence. It had been said that
there were already a sufficient number of churches in Scot-
land. It might he so—but what the clergy asked was not an
increase in the number of churches ; for except in the case
of Inverness and another place, they required no now church ;
but what they did expect was, that such endowments should
be made as would enable them to apply the instruction of the
Established Church as widely as possible for the benefit of
society. As the Establishment at present stood in that coun-
try, they denied with one hand, by reason of the limited
nature of the Establishment, what they professed to effect with
the other. Let the extent of the parishes be diminished ;
let the clergyman be obliged to gather his congregation out
of a limited district ; let his duties be faithfully and earnestly
performed ; and let him appear in the light of a friend, an
instructor, and director of the people whenever their distresses
called for his relief, or their sorrow invited his consolation.—
( Hear, hear.) The demands for the voluntary system might
thus be checked, and all the evils which it was sure to entail
on the country avoided. He, on the grounds on which he
had stated, preferred the motion of his Right Hon. Friend to
the amendment of the Noble Lord, because it would secure
the extension of the Church Establishment in Scotland.
Sir R. PEEL said, that two months ago he should have
supported a motion for a Committee, but at the present pe-
riod he should support the Noble Lord's motion for a Corn-
mission.—( Hear, hear.) For be could not forget that this was
the Ist of July ; and therefore, if the present proposition were
to institute an enquiry by a Parliamentary Committee, he
should be compelled to say no; more than doubting as he did
the possibility of entering into an enquiry to a sufficient extent,
and with sufficient minuteness, in the present session. The
last time this subject was discussed, he had advised the Noble
Lord to refer to a passage in the Address to the Throne at
the commencement of the present Session. His Majesty, in
his speech, had called the attention of the House to the condi-
tion of the Establishment in England and Scotland ; stating
that, with respect to the former, a Commission of inquiry had
been appointed by the Crown. In the Address of that House
in answer, after thanking his Majesty for the appointment of
the Commission, " the especial object of which was to extend
more widely the means of religious worship, according to the
doctrines of the Established Church, and to confirm its hold
upon the veneration and affections of the people;" the House
proceeded to assure his Majesty that they would devote " their
earnest attention to the condition of the Church of Scotland,
and to the means by which it might be enabled to increase the
opportunities of religious worship for the poorer classes of
society in that part of the United Kingdom." All he ( Sir R.
Peel) proposed was, that the House should now confirm and
realize the assurance which they gave the Crown, at a time,
let it be remembered, when party spirit ran very high—when
the present Speaker was placed in the chair, and when an
amendment was carried in the latter part of the Address, in
opposition to the wishes of his Majesty's then Government.
At that time, when his Majesty's Ministers were in a mino-
rity, that House nevertheless assured the Crown that they
would devote their earnest attention to the condition of
the Church of Scotland. Although he ( Sir Robert Peel)
was not a member of the Church of Scotland, he looked upon
it, as an establishment, with the same eyes as those with which
he looked at the establishment to which he actually belonged.
—( Hear.) There was no one point in which he was disposed
to uphold the latter, in which he would not also be disposed to
uphold the former. He said this, not merely en dry technical
grounds of law, or of his general attachment to establishments ;
but because lie had had opportunities of witnessing the many
virtues of the ministers of the Church of Scotland, and the
general effect of those virtues on the morals of the country.—
( Hear, hear.) 'All he asked was, that the Church of Scotland
should be placed on the same footing as the Church of Eng-
land. The claims of the Church of Scotland ought, in his
opinion, to be more distinctly recognised than they were in the
motion of the Noble Lord. After the appointment of a commis-
sion by the Crown to inquire into the condition of the Church of
England, and after the assurance of that House to the:Crown that
it would take into its consideration the condition of the Church
of Scotland, it appeared to him that, although it might not be
very important in other respects, it would be important in prin-
ciple to introduce some expression more distinctly recognising
the claims of the Church of Scotland. It was a point of
which he thought the Noble Lord would feel the propriety.
He should, therefore, propose, as an amendment, to introduce
after the words " pastoral superintendence," the words " un-
der the establishment of the Church of' Scotland " That
was all that lie proposed : for in his opinion nothing would be
more unfortunate than in a case like this to create anything
like a hostile collision between persons of different religious
persuasions. He had not the slightest disrespect for Dissen-
ters from the Establishment in either country. While he sup-
ported the Establishment, and was ready to take every just
means to increase its members, God forbid that he should
take any unjust means for that purpose. As to an inquiry
into the funds which were, or which might hereafter be, avail-
able for the purpose of the Established Church of Scotland,
lie confessed that he would much rather see the necessity for
a law on that subject considered by Government, than that it
should devolve on a commission. As to available funds, the
question which ought first to be determined was, whether
there was any available funds or not. That was the fact
which ought to be ascertained before any change was proposed
in the law. It certainly ought not devolve an a com-
mission to propose any change in the law. lie hoped the
Noble Lord would accept his (Sir It. Peel's) verbal amend-
ment.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was happy to find that there really
was no difference between the Right Hon Baronet's object
and his own. The Right lion. Baronet approved of the re-
ference of the subject to a Commission, rather than to a Com-
mittee of that House. As to recognising the claims of the
Church of Scotland, he was as ready to recognise them as the
Right lion. Baronet himself ; and, on the other hand, he was
happy to find that the Right Hon. 13aronct was as" sensible of
the valuable assistance rendered to the cause of religion by the
Dissenters as he ( Lord John Russell) was. It was a fact
which ought never to be lost sight of, either in England or in
Ss•otland, that where the State Establishment did not furnish
sufficient means of religious worship for the people, it was ex-
ceedingly desirable that the deficiency should be supplied by
other bodies. He did not, therefore, lament to see the growth
of dissent in large towns, where the means of religious wor-
ship under the Establishment were insufficient ; or that the
ground which the Church was unable to occupy, should be
taken up by others. With respect to the manner and the na-
ture of the inquiry, there was no difference between the Right
lion. Baronet and himself. As to the amendment proposed
by the Right lion. Baronet, a similar one had been recom-
mended to him since he came down to the House, which he
had declined adopting, because the motion which he had of-
fered to the House had been drawn up in the words of high
authorities in the Church of Scotland. He had no positive
objection to the words proposed by the Right lion. Baronet ;
but, for the reason which he had already stated, he must de-
cline consenting to their introduction.
Sir R. PEEL observed that all he wished for was that the
Church of Scotland should be placed on the same footing as
the Church of England.
Lord 110 WICK was rather at a loss to understand the
Right Hon. Baronet's precise object. -His Noble Friend's
motion, as it at present stood, comprehended both the Church
of Scotland and the Dissenters from that Church. Why in-
troduce words which might be construed into a limitation f
the inquiry in a manner in which the Right Hon. Baronet
himself, according to his statement, did not wish to gee -it
limited ? Being all agreed on the principle of the measure, it

would surely be impolitic to risk any angry feeling by the
introduction of words which might be . misinterpreted. He
was sure that his Noble Friend's object and the object of
the Right Hon. Baronet were the same ; and it was of the
greatest importance that on an occasion like the present
there should be a general concurrence of opinion. He
hoped and trusted that when the result of the inquiry ap-
peared, they would be able to prevail on both the Church
and the Dissenters in Scotland to agree on the measure ne-
cessary for the desirable object in view.
Sir GEORGE CLERK expressed his gratitude to the
Noble Lord for the tone and temper in which he had treated
the question. The Noble Lord had, however, omitted, in the
early part of his motion, after the words " pastoral superin-
tendence," some expressions suggested by the high authorities
to which the Noble Lord had alluded, recommending that an
inquiry should also he instituted into the situation of chapels
of ease aAd unendowed churches in Scotland.
Mr. PATRICK STEWART supported the proposition
for the appointment of a commission. As a friend to the
Church Establishment of Scotland, he thanked his Majesty's,
Government, and ho thanked all who had taken part in the
present discussion, for the conciliatory spirit in which they had
met the question.
Sir TtOBERT PEEL, being unwilling to disturb the tone
and temper which had hitherto prevailed on this occasion, and
understanding that the motion was admitted to contain a re-
cognition of the principle for which he had contended, felt that
he should best perform his public duty by not pressing his
amendment to a division.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rejoiced in the Right
Hon. 13aron:q's determination. He rose, however, to correct
a statement made the other evening by the lion. Baronet, to
the effect that such had been the rapid growth of infidelity in
the city which he (the Attorney-General) had the honour to
represent, that not an eighth part of the population at present
received religious instruction. So far was that from being the
case, that he believed there never was a period at which piety
and religion more extensively prevailed in the metropolis of
Scotland than at the present moment.
Mr. SINCLAIR and Mr. 'MACKENZIE were under-
stood to support the motion.
Sir WILLIAM RAE explained the circumstance which
had induced him to wait until he saw what steps his Majesty's
Government would take with reference to the subject under
discussion. Ile regretted that some words had not been in-
troduced into the Noble Lord's motion more distinctly recog-
nising the peculiar claims of the Church of Scotland.
Dr. BO WRING said that he would cheerfully consent to
the nomination of the Commission ; but he hoped (as was un-
derstood) that the Dissenters of Scotland would not be an-
noyed by the use of language offensive to them.
After a few words from Mr. A. JOHNSTON,
Sir W. RAE moved to leave out that part of the address re-
lating to the inquiry into the funds of the Scotch Church.
Mr. HUME opposed the amendment. lie was anxious to
have the fullest inquiry, in order to give to Scotland, if she
should be found to require it, all possible means of education.
Sir W. RAE said that his proposition was made with a
view to avoid the excitement which he knew the question
would cause in Scotland.
The amendment was then negatived and the original motion
carried.

IPSWICH ELECTION.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON informed the House that Mr.
O'Malley was in attendance. He moved that he be called to
the bar to be reprimanded and discharged.
Mr. O'Malley was accordingly called to the bar.
The SPEAKER addressed him to the following effect :
" Peter Frederick O'Malley—This House has found that you
have been guilty of aiding and abetting a witness in absconding to
avoid giving his testimony before a Committee of this House. In
weighing the guilt of those persons who have committed the offence
of violating the privileges of this House, in connexion with the
proceedings of the Committee to which the merits of the return
for the Borough of Ipswich were referred, the House has had no
hesitation in coming to the conclusion that those who aided and
abetted others in the commission of that offence are those who are
deserving of the severest punishment.
" It is with peculiar pain that I am called upon to state this to a
gentleman of that profession to which I have myself the honour to
belong ; and I hope that, in the discharge of the duty which is now
imposed upon me, the House will excuse me if I press with less
severity than perhaps in strictness I ought, those observations
which arise, first, from the petition which you yourself presented
to this House, and from the other circumstances which have been
disclosed to this House in the proceedings of the Committee. In
stating that you were not aware that in aiding and abetting an in-
dividual to absent himself, for the purpose of avoiding giving that
evidence which it was his duty to give, you were violating the pri-
vileges of this House, you offer an excuse which this House. will
receive from no man, but least of all from a person in your profes-
sion. That you, who attended the proceedings of the Committee
as a counsel, should have in any way connected yourself with a per-
son who was capable of giving evidence to that Committee, well
knowing, by your attendance as a counsel before that Committee,
the obstruction which had been opposed to the administiation of jus-
tice by the absence of those who had wilfully withdrawn themselves,
is a transaction upon which, I am sure, you will never reflect but
with pain.
" The House, deeply impressed by the evidence which has been
given in your behalf, with respect to the state of your health, has
been induced in its lenity to discharge you more speedily; than
others who have committed the same offence with yourself. Trust-
ing that you will always reflect with gratitude upon the kindness
and indulgence of this House, I have Row to acquaint you that you
aro to be discharged on the payment of your fees."
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the reprimand
was ordered to be entered on the journals.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he wished to state to
the House the conclusion he had come to with respect to the
course to be pursued with regard to the persons implicated in
the Ipswich transactions, who were to be brought to the bar on
Saturday. Considering the state of the business of the House,
and the number of witnesses which might have to be exa-
mined, he had come to the conclusion that the inquiry had
better be undertaken by a Select Committee. He should ac-
cordingly move the appointment of the Committee on Friday,
and also that it be appointed as several of the same nature
were last year and the year before—viz., nine or eleven Mem-
bers being chosen by lot, and two being nominated by the
House, one on behalf of each party.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL made some observa-
tions, inaudible in the Gallery.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATION BILL.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the House
went into Committee on the above Bill.
The twenty-second clause was agreed to, with verbal
amendments.
The twenty-third clause, providing that one-third part of
the Council should go out of office annually, having been read,
Mr. C. BULLE R rcse to move the amendment of which
he had given notice on this clause. He strongly objected to
one-third of the Members going out each year by rotation.
From the influence the remaining two-thirds would possess,
they would in the course, of a short time form " a house list"
of the thirds to be elected, as had happened at the Bank and
at the East India House. lie thought-it would be much
better, therefore, that the whole of the Members of the
Council should be elected annually. Wherever that plan
had been tried it had succeeded to admiration. Of all the
corporations mentioned in the Municipal Corporation Com-
missioners' Report, there was none which had been spoken
of in such terms of unqualified praise as that of Wisbeach.
That was not a Parliamentary Corporation, but there had been
there the greatest and most economical attention paid to the
administration of the funds and charities of the place, and
everything was conducted with a regularity and efficiency that
conferred the greatest credit on all concerned. There the
Corporation was elected annually and by ballot.—( Cheers. )
Another objection he had to the system of triennial elec-
tions was, that parties once elected would have to serve,
under the penalty
.of a fine. It was unfair to condemn a
man who had no inclination for the task perhaps, to dis.
charge the arduous duties of the Town Council for the space
of three years. Annual elections would also have the effect
of preventing agitation, by discouraging parties from becom-
ing candidates. For these reasons he begged to move that, in
line three, the words " one third part of" be omitted.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the objections of the Hon.
Member for Liskeard to the clause as it stood were inconsis-
tent with each other. One of his objections was, that as the
clause stood, there would be great agitation and excitement
to get the office of Town Councilman ; whilst another was,
that its duties would be so onerous that it was a hardship upon
individuals to be obliged to serve for three years against their
will. Another objection of the Hon. Member was, that the
two-thirds who remained in office would elect the one-third to
be elected by a kind of house-list ; but this objection was also
answered by the assumption of the Hon: Member that there
would be great anxiety out of doors to become members of the
Council. He had not heard anything, therefore, to make him
doubt that the system proposed to be established by the Bill
would work well in practice.
Mr. GROTE said, that the periods during which the Corn.

mon Councilmen of London held their seats afforded a striking
refutation of the argument against annual elections, founded
on the inconvenience of having every year a large number of
new arid unpractised members. The Common Council of
London consisted of 140 members, and the average length of
time which the present members had held their seats was nine
years and three-quarters.—(Cheers.) Assuming that the
average expectancy of continuance in cffice of the present
Common Council was another nine years and three-quarters,
it would give an average length of service to each member of
nineteen years and a half.--(Cheers.) This was a complete
refutation of the supposition that annual elections would pro-
duce a continual influx of new and inexperienced men. With
respect to the argument that by annual elections a particular
man would be displaced by a ternpatnry excitement; although
that might happen in one year, the member would be re-
chosen the next, when the excitement subsided. That the
members, however, who would fall victims even to temporary
excitements would be small, might be judged of from the fact
that there were only nine members in the Common Council
of London who had so suffered.— ( Hear, hear.) They must
not forget that a body chosen annually was much more likely
to have their attention constantly directed to their duty to their
constituents than one elected at longer intervals. The feel-
ing of constant accountability to their constituents, which,
after all, must be the great source from which the disposition
to do their duty must emanate, could not be too deeply rooted
in the minds of Representatives, as was proved in the cases
both of London and Wisbeach.—( Hear.)
The ATTORNE Y-GE NER A L allowed that if the elec-
tions were annual there was every probability the old mem-
bers would be re-elected, but still there was a possibility for
which they must legislate ; he meant sudden convulsions in
the political world, that might cause the whole body of the
common council to be changed. This would not be a trifling
evil, when it was recollected how much more severe their
labours would be under the new than they had been under the
old system. They would have to manage all the local
affairs of their respective towns, they would have to admiister
their property, to direct the paving, lighting, watering, and
watching of their streets, all of theist functions of a compli-
cated and onerous nature, requiring rixiverience in those who
discharged them. 'pie proposition eot4irted in the Bill, Mn

the other hand, was not a speculative experiment, for it had
been tried in Scotland, and as far as it had been tried had suc-
ceeded to admiration.
Sir J. R. REID was understood to oppose the amendment.
Mr. E WART supported the amendment.
Mr. WILL IA M S (Coventry) mentioned the case of the
Common Council of the City of London as an illustration, I
that no possible inconvenience, or practical objection, could
arise from the adoption of the proposed amendment. That
body was elected annually, and had the management of funds
to the amount of 400,0001. a year, and yet no consequences
had resulted from it prejudicial to the interest of the citizens of
London.
After a few words in support of the amendment by Sir W.
MoLEswoirrn, and by Mr. C. BULLER in reply, the amend-
ment was put, and negatived without a division.
Col. SIBT HO RP moved as an amendment, " That after
the words ' shall go out of office in 1836' (clause 23), all the
words should be omitted, to the end of the words in the
present year,' line ten, for the purpose of inserting these words,
That those who shall go out of office shall be such councillors
as shall be by open vote so chosen, at each period at which
such removal or change of one-third, and consequent re-elec-
tion of some number of councillors to fill up the vacancy, shall
be deemed necessary; no councillor who shall have been re-
moved, shall be re-elected into office within the period of three
years after such removal.' "
Lord J. RUSSELL opposed the amendment, and it was
put and negatived without a division.
The clause, as amended, was then ordered to stand part of
the Bill.
The 24th clause—" Elections to be neld before mayor.
Mode of voting."
Mr. BARLOW HOY moved, as an amendment, " That
the votes at elections' for the council be taken openly, in the
manner now usual at elections for Members to serve in Par-
liament," and accompanied hiimotion with some observations,
which were altogether inaudible in the gallery.
A brief discussion then ensued across the table, in which
Lord J. Russell, Mr. P. Thomson, and Lord Stanley took
part ; but owing to the conversational tone in which it was
carried on, we are unable to give even the purport of it.
The amendment was eventually put, and negatived without

a division.
Mr. GROTE then rose to move the amendment of which
he had given notice, and in doing so, could not but express
his sincere regret that the principle of the vote by Ballot was
not recognized by the Bill. The amendment which he now
proposed to lay upon the table, did not in the least touch or in-
fringe upon the general principle of the Bill. If his amend-
ment were adopted, the method of voting which the House had
lately sanctioned by its decision would be still open to these
municipal corporations. There would, however, be an option
given to the town council of those corporations, if they thought
the adoption of the vote by Ballot to be preferable, to adopt
that mode. He was fortified in making this proposition by the
course pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Nottingham ( Sir John C. Hobhouse) on the Bill introduced
by him respecting Select Vestries. Indeed, he had copied the
greater part of his amendment from that Bill, and had taken
no greater precaution for securing secrecy than that Bill pre-
scribed. There was but one difference of any importance to
notice between that Bill and his amendment. The Right
Hon. Baronet's Bill enacted that every parish containing 800
rate-payers and above, should be entitled to declare its option
to adopt, by a majority of the rate-payers, that mode of voting
for the representatives of the vestry which I now propose to
be adopted (at the option of the town council) for the election
of the municipal (or town) council of the boroughs. He
only differed from the Right Hon. Baronet in this respect, that
instead of lodging the option in a majority of the rate-payers,
he ( Mr. Grote) proposed to lodge it in the absolute majority
of the Town Council. There were some minor differences as
to the appointment of inspectors which he would not more
particularly advert to. To lay a ground for this proposition,
it was not necessary for gentlemen to agree with him on the
subject of the vote by ballot. It was sufficient for them to
admit that in some of these two hundred Municipal Corpora-
tions there night be political and acrimonious feelings, which
the majority of the Town Council might think it best to avoid
by adopting the mode of election for which he was now con-
tending. The adoption of the Ballot was infinitely more ne-
cessary in municipal elections than even in the exercise of the
Parliamentary franchise ; for as a lower class of persons were
entitled to vote at the former, it was but reasonable to suppose
that they were more open to undue influence. He begged
to add at the end of clause 24 the following proviso :
" Provided always, that it shall be competent to the Council
of any borough, if an absolute majority of the whole number
theieeof shall so think fit, to direct that at elections for mem-.
bors of the Council or of auditors fior the said borough, the
votes of the burgesses shall be taken in the following manner :
that is to say, that the poll shall be taken by ballot, each bur-
gess delivering to the mayor as aforesaid, or to such clerk as
may be appointed to take the poll, in manner hereinafter men-
tioned, a folded paper, containing the names of the persons for
whom such burgess may vote, as fit andproper to be council-
lors or auditors: and that the said mayor or clerk shall deposit
the said folded paper, without previously opening the same, in
a balloting glass or box, which shall be closed and sealed up
at the time fixed for the termination of the voting, as here-
inafter declared :—That after the close of the said ballot, the
mayor as aforesaid, with four or more inspectors appointed by
the said council, and in the presence of such number of the
council as shall think fit to attend, shall proceed to unseal the
box or glass and examine the voting papers so delivered as
aforesaid, for the purpose of ascertaining which of the several
persons voted for are elected ; and so many of such persons
being equal to the number of the councillors then to be chosen,
as shall have the greatest number of votes, shall be deemed to
be elected ; and in case of an equality in the number of votes
for any two or more persons, the mayor shall name from
amongst those persons for whom the number of votes shall be
equal, so many as shall be necessary to complete the requisite
number of councillors to be chosen ; and the mayor shall pub-
lish a list of the names of the persons so elected councillors,
within three days (exclusive of Sunday) from the closing of
the poll."
Mr. BARLOW HOY expressed his surprise that any pro-
position should be made for the introduction of a secret mode
of voting into a Bill the professed object of which was to do
away with secret and close practices.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON thought that the adoption
of the Ballot in municipal elections would occasion consider-
able turbulence and confusion.
Mr. WARBURTON said that the Ballot had been adopted
with great success in many parishes.
Sir JOHN HOBHOU SE denied that it had been adopted
in any one instance.
subscribe be b
sWARBURTONnametOt
he
sutl would
s propha ov
isne
gthat t iefd any
for votershould
particular
party, his vote should be void.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir JOHN HOBHOU SE again stated, that no ono parish
had availed itself of the provision in his Bill which gave them
the power of adopting the Ballot.
An LION. MEMBER here interposed, and said that he himself
had been elected to a parochial office by ballot.
Sir JOHN HOBHOU SE said, that in preparing a great
measure like the present, and in endeavouring to attain the
best mode of carrying it into execution, it was perfectly im-
possible that they could fall in with all the modes proposed by
every individual Member. Ho entreated the cordial co-ope-
ration of the House, and he made no complaint of the recep-
tion the Bill had received, because it certainly had met with a
very fair share of support ; but if Gentlemen whom they had the
pleasure of seeing on those (the Ministerial) benches, really
meant well to the Bill, he implored them to merge their own
minor differences of opinion, to stand by the Government, and
support the great principles of the Bill.
Mr. WARD meant to impute no dereliction of principle to
the Government, when he said that, if the amendment were
pressed to a division, he should support it.--( Hear, hear. )
After the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet, however,
he hoped the Hon. Member for London would consent to
withdraw his motion.
Mr. AG LIONBY made the same suggestion, and observed
that the mere fact of the metropolitan parishes not having
adopted the ballot, proved how safely the alternative might be
left to them.
Mr. GROTE, under existing circumstances, would con-
sent, though with considerable reluctance, to withdraw his
motion.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the clause was
agreed to.
C:ause 25 was also agreed to.
After some discussion, Clause 26 was agreed to.
On Clause 27 being read—
An HON. MEMBER moved as an amendment, that in case of
an equality of votes between any two or more of the candidates
for the office of councillor, the mayor shall draw by lot the
requisite number, instead of nominating the successful can-
didate.
After afclv wordsfromLord J. RUSSELL, the Committee
whendivided, there- appeared—
-142
Ayes
190
Noes
--48
Majority
On our return to the gallery,
Mr. H. HUGHES suggested that the period allowed by
the Bill for casting up the votes taken at elections, would, in
large towns be too limited, because it would be in the power
of any person to put a candidate in nomination.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he' would consider if there
was any difficulty in the case.
Mr. , WARBURTON said that it appeared to him that
there was a mistake in this clause in omitting the name of the
town-clerk, who ought properly to preside, pro tempore, over
the election of mayor.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 29 was then proposed.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY had an amendment to propose,
to the effect that all persons now holding offices in Corpo-
rations should continue to hold them until persons were
elected under the provisions of this Act to succeed them. He
did not think that provision had been made in the Bill for this
purpose
Lord. J. RUSSELL had a proviso to propose at the end
of this clause, which he thought would meet the objection of
his Hon. Friend.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY had prepared a clause on the sub-
ject, but was
and his Hon. to leave
the matter in the hands of his
Noble Friend,and Learned Friend the Attor-
ney-General, who no doubt would frame a clause much bet-
ter than he could do.—(llear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL then proposed a provision to the effect
he had stated.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 30 being put (certain boroughs to be divided in-
to wards,)
Lord STANLEY intended to call the attention of the
Committee to a most important point, namely, the principle
on which the Government intended to act in proposing that
his Majesty in Council should have the power of dividing a
borough into -wards. This point involved three important
principles--first, whether it was intended to propose that any