The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-12 00:00:00

LMPERIAL PARLIAIMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY).

The LORD CHANCELLOR. took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
Viscount DUNGANNON presented a petition from the
College of Physicians and Surgeons of Edinburgh, praying
that the Medical Acts Amendment Bill might not be passed
this session.
Lord NORMANBY presented a petition from the
Superintendent of Police, against the ninth clause of the
Police (Boroughs and Counties) Bill.
Lord WODEHO USE presented numerous petitions from
Aylesbury, Brighton, Newcastle, and other . places for
leciiheslarTeofmgaleTwEitShß"Udßecinreeisenwtds amptee.rt:t* to
the same effect from the Seotch Reformation Society.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the Warrington
And Southport Railway Bill was read a third time and
Passed•
CONSOLIDATION FUND APPROPRIATION ACT.
This bill passed through committee.
STAMP DUTIES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
MILITIA. PAY BILL.
This bill also passed through committee.
INDIA LOAN BILL. .

On the motion that the house go into committee on this
bM,
The Dnkeof ARGYLE said he was anxious to address a
few observations to their lordships on this bill. The lath
mutiny broke out, and was suppressed before any troops could.
be despatched from this country. The sum provided by Par-
liament for the military expenditure in India during the
coming financial year 1859-60 was 12+ millions ;w and al-
though it appeared that the reduction, compared ith last
year, was only 2+ millions, it was in fact 4+ millions, as
would be seen when the losses on Indian railways, and
other sources, of expenditure were taken into consideration.
Thus, although 12+ millions was the sum voted to
cover the expenditure, three millions were for
compensation, and restoring the balance of expenditure, 9f
millions was thd actual deficit of the present year. Ex-
cepting the expense of the mutiny, which of course was an
exceptional circumstance, and which seriously affected the
finances of India, they were, at the commencement of the
mutiny, in a state which must be considered satisfactory.
It was also very satisfactory to find that, notwithstanding
the mutiny, there had been no falling off whatever in the
revenue of that country, and although such a circumstance
might appear surprising, yet it certainly was a fact.
Before he resumed his seat he wished to protest against the
statement that our Indian empire had been acquired by a
settled and deliberate policy of annexation. It had, on the
contrary, been acquired by the close contact which existed
between the advancing civilisation of the west and the de-
cay of the eastern race. The noble lord then referred to
the steps to be taken as to reducing the military ex-
penditure. The necessary steps would be to make a
complete disarmament of our native troops. He did not say
it would be necessary to remove all the small arms, because
that would be impossible, but we could insure that not a
single gun should be cast in India, and from what
we had seen in the late mutiny, we knew that
without guns native troops were useless. He could
not say the Government would be able immediately to
reduce the military expenditure to the scale on which it
existed before the mutiny • but of this he felt certain that,
until the military expenditure could be reduced to a very
great extent, it would be impossible to establish the revenue
of India on a sound and solid basis.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH would not follow the
noble duke through all the topics through which he had
travelled: if he did, he should occupy their lordships the
whole of the short period the session would last. He con-
fessed the expectations that had been held out both of reve-
nue and of reduction seemed to him alike over sanguine. He
did think it most hard upon the Indian government that it
should be compelled this year, of all others, to pay five mil-
lions towards the commercial speculations of gentlemen
who had projected railways ; and he hoped that in all future
guarantees the Government would be placed in the position
merely of a banker to receive the subscriptions of the share-
holders. Many years ago he had cautioned the public
against the danger that must arise from the system of guar-
antees ;. and he prophesied what had since turned out to be
the fact, namely, that if they guaranteed railways at 5 per
cent. it would he hopeless to expect that it could borrow at
a lower interest. No doubt the present financial state of
India was very lamentable ; but he cautioned the Govern-
ment against imposing new taxes ; it would be far better to
increase temporarily the old ones, to which the people were
accustomed. lie thought the step of sending out Mr. Wil-
son as Chancellor of the Exchequer was an extremely wise
one. He had himself projected a similar arrangement 30
years ago ; and it was certainly most desirable that a states-
man should be substituted for a lawyer as a member of the
council. If Mr. Wilson or any other gentleman went out
in the proposed capacity he would not be able to do much
unless he had able assistants. He would have to educe order
out of chaos ; for it was impossible to imagine anything
worse than the state of things that he (the noble earl) remem-
bered when he was in India. The new financial moister
would have to teach the officials not only habits of business
but of obedience, which would be a far more difficult task.
He (the noble earl) strongly deprecated the reduction of the
great civil salaries. Such a measure would bring about a
revolution of the worst kind ; for it would bring about a re-
volutionin that class of men. At first, gentlemen, who went
to India generally incurred debts ' - and it was only to-
wards the end of their career that they could hope to
amass anything like a competence. To reduce their emolu-
ments would cause India to be governed, not, as now, by
young men, but by old ones. Hitherto it had been the
youth of our civil servants that had rendered our :adminis-
tration of India so vigorous ; and the change would be a
moat undesirable one. Besides, before their salaries were
raised to their present scale, there had been more than sus-
picions of the probity of our officials. The existing salaries,
therefore, meant youth, energy, and probity. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer in India might make great and im-
portant reductions in the native establishments connected
with the different departments. He (the noble earl) had
read with disgust the demands which had been made for
those establishments ; and he had no doubt that an ener-
getic Government might effect great reductions in that re-
spect. Many years ago he had called for a return which
showed that the native establishments connected with:cer-
tain departments were more numerous than the army. It
was absolutely necessary that the:military expenditure
should be reduced, and he could not understand why the
Government had not taken immediate steps for that pur-
pose. There must, however, be a diminution in the num-
ber of officers as well as of private soldiers, otherwise their
efforts at economy:would be vain ; but he believed that up
to the present time there had been no reduction in that re-
spect. It was absolutely necessary to have a great Euro-
pean force, and he felt certain that what was moat politic
would be Ist) the most economical. It was desirable that
they should create a balance between the local and the
Royal force, and between those two combined and the
native troops. He would begin by diminishing the native
force to the extent which it at present exceeded the Euro-
pean. That would give a reduction of from 90,000 to
95,000 men. He confessed he had been surprised to find
that at this moment we had in India, in addition to our
100,000 European soldiers, no fewer than 194,000 or
195,000 native troops, besides 80,000 police, making a
total native force of 265,000 men. He would not look
gloomily at theltiture of India. It was the noblest em-
pire that had ever been acquired by man—or, at least, it
might be made so under proper management. It was to
the eternal honour of this country that in less than a hun -
dred years it had been won ; and it was perhaps still more
to its honour that during the last two years it had been
maintained. (Hcar, hear.). He trusted that the Govern-
ment, discarding every consideration but the public in-
terest, would enable us long to retain it, and would confirm
it to the benefifeithe people of India. (Cheers.)
Lord LYVEDEN complained that under the present
system there was a total want of responsibility for the ad-
mmistratiOn of India. Who could say, for example, who
had been to blame for the mismanagement which had caused
the insubordination which had lately taken place in the
European troops. Did the fault lie with Lord Clyde or
with Lord Canning, or with whom ? No one could tell.
He could not see why they should not make these Indian
loans an imperial question. By so doing they would save
millions, and he did not believe they would lose anything.
To that complexion must they come at last, and why not at
once, thereby saving the difference in the interest. He did
not believe that this country would ever be induced by any
consideration to abandon India; and he therefore regretted
that the Government did not 'bake up its mind at once to
guarantee the loans. He (Lord Lyveden) could not agree
with the noble earl that it was impossible to effect any ma-
terial reduction in the civil salaries. He could not see any-
thing in the rndian service why it should require any
greater scale of payment than that in the other colonies.
He could not see why gentlemen *passing from Ceylon to
Mardas should be enabled to exchange comforts forluxuries.
The Indian ervice was the highest paid in the world. The
first salary was £4OO or £5OO, whereas in the English civil
service it was not above £lOO. From the beginning it was
a competency, and in the end it was opulence. He did not
think that probity necessarily resulted from high salaries.
On the contrary, if high salaries led men into luxury of
living they might have exactly the contrary result.
Lot& ELLENBOROUGH denied that there was any
luxury.
Lord LYVEDEN—Tasat depended on what the noble earl
thought luxury.; but the Indian service was luxurious com-
pared with the colonial. He thought that there might be a
much larger number of uncovenanted servants. The reduc-
tion must begin at home. They should commence with that
gigantic job the Indian Council, which might be reduced to
six heads of departments The real reduction, however,
must no doubt be in the military expenditure. He had
been considerably astonished at the increase of native troops
during the mutiny, and he was glad to find that that force
Mrin the process of reduction. With a proper police they
avelhe ter greatly
reduce the number of troops ; and there
ether ways in which they might diminish the duties
r& vluired
from the troops. He could not understand for in-
stance why such large sums should be carried about in bul-
lio n with a military guard. Why not establish a system of
branch banks'
Wilson to India, hteyhaereourd to the intended mission of Mr.
was to be a Chancellor ofe
therta
Exchequer.i r n verlf
that d
wast ha that hh
the
ease, he doubted the
eer, He only iraagiPreQPrietY of sending out such an offi-
ua that Mr. Wilson was to take a
sit:nation in the gallery, and •
Governor-
Ge tonal. As a financial councillor
report to the e
great use but they ought not
services might be of
ver
dy -reduction.' Mr. 'Wilson would to expect any very
Bpe
1 ' and he' might experience have a great deal to
leant t considerable o • •
lay if he were charged with the invidiouspposition,
espe-ci task of re-
_ , maaries. He (the noble lord) hoped,
ducir4
uld be armed with however, that
Mr. NV pson-wo sufficient authority, and
that he would be backed by the Government at home. He
could n of think that taxes like the succession duties might
not be tuposed, because the natives had been more used to
under their own princes than under
such im posts our rule.
They h been told that it was impossible to in
governor of Madras had
the
land reN,enues ;` but the late
all modesb sic_
needed i n doing that by 'the best" of reducing
the tax. -He thought therefore that they might y
look to the
ly than had lately been our
future o f India' More' sanguinely
y
'habit ; bait he hoped that in time to come
but eat
• our eastern possessions t glory gr
w, aalth.• (Hear.)
"he Earl of ELLENBOROVGH did not express any
u
opin ion as to whether the reduction of the
diture raigl if be immediately effected. He did think,
claitin)
ever, t 'hat Op native troops in India might once be
i-
nished to tho number of the Europeans.
The hill ten passed through committee.
RESE. EYE VOLUNTEER FORCE OF SEAMEN

BILL.
The I h Iles of SOMERSET, in moving the committee 021
this said, that after the full discussions which had taken
place on importance of a naval reserve force, he was sure
that an* provision which could possibly add to the naval
reser yes it of the country would meet with their lordships' ap-
proba fish . The present bill emanated from the report of a
comm ifisk m, but only dealt with one of their several recom-
.
mendat lot sr as it was thought that it would be inconvenient
to mix tt 3ther different subjects in one bill. The bill was
confined to the one point of a naval reserve force, and inrits
form 80m• rhat resembled a measure previously brought in