The Sun.
London, England, 1866-03-24 00:00:00

HACKNEY CARRIAGE DRIVERS.

Mr. CRAWFORD asked the Under Secretary of State
for the Home Department whether any, and if so what,
steps were taken to insure the fitness and competency of
persons applying for licences as drivers of hackney car-
riages ?
Mr. BARING said the examination for drivers was at
present very strict. Persons so applying had to fill up
certain forms, which were sent into the police, and if
thought satisfactory a licence was granted. Consider-
ing the enormous number of licences, there might be found
an instance where some person obtained a licence who was
not properly qualified.
THE COINAGE.
Mr. WATKIN asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
if any discussion had taken place between her Majesty's
Government and the Government of the United States in
reference to the proposal of Mr. Chase to establish an in-
ternational coinage between England, France, and the
United States of America ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
made search, and he could find no such paper. He did
not think the matter, whatever it was, ever advanced to
what might be called an official correspondence.
THE CATTLE PLAGUE.
Mr. DISRAELI asked the right hon. gentleman the
Secretary for the Home Department if he was aware that
the cattle disease had been re-imported from Holland ?
Sir G. GREY said the attention of the Government had
been drawn to certain milk cows imported from Holland

WAN
sing,
ntil
iTmalting taitteo:Fu thiso
motion,
000nuN:
tel:aDtt NsspieirCori
tapafTtiajerl:tluiwEcruintiAiul:
dnoßoneYedn.aotyot,
more
the 9tlr of April, and I think it may be convenient, in
uld
, and
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —I have to
the course of pub!ic business after Easter, the view which
ibmupot
writtaini tzrtdiontos
the Government take of some which
htnelaneNartetli at-
tention tnfhtplrileeageaerddotnotahrargument,
uen t,house—particularly in regard to the motion
placed on the paper by my hon. friend the member for
Bridgewater (Mr.Kinglake). That motion is in the form of
a question to me bearing upon this subject. My hon. friend
in his motion asks whether the Government would take
into consideration in the Easter recess the expediency of
proceeding by resolutions towards the settlement of the
question of the representation of the people. I have to say
that having introduced a bill for the purpose of dealing
with the franchise of England and Wales, our intention is to
persevere with that bill, but we do not intend to proceed
abymwotaiyonoforfeswohluict
be moved as an amendment upon the second reading of the
ihonn.o t(iCc eh ehearss .)beeThen,boon
giv esni
and
do mweh
incehxwt
will
Reform Bill by my noble friend the member for Chester
(Earl Grosvenor). Ido not know whether the noble lord
is in his place to-night; but with respect to that motion I
would simply say that I speak of the mover and of the
motion in quite different senses. (Laughter.) No one who
knows my.noble friend can ever speak of him in any other
terms than those of respect and regard— (hear, hear)—but
motions and movers are very different things—(laughter)—
and in speaking Gf his motion I have to state that it is the
intention of her Majesty's Government to resist it. (Cheers.)
They will resist it upon the double ground—first of all, that
it is a motion which, so far as they are enabled to judge,
says one thing and means another—(cheers)—and, secondly
that it is in their judgment a direct vote of want of con-
fidence in the existing administration. (Cheers and coun-
ter cheers.) Then there is another motion upon the paper,
with which the name of the hon. member for Bridgewater
is associated. The motion of the noble earl is to be moved
upon the second reading of the bill, but the other motion
refers to what is to be done in the interval between the
second reading and the committee upon the bill, and pre-
sumes the second reading to have the assent of this house.
Sir, with respect to that motion the terms of it are:—
'That it is not expedient to go into committee upon the
said bill until this house shall have before it a separate bill
for the redistribution of seats." Perhaps I may remind the
house of what we have already stated, or rather of what I
have already stated with the authority of the Government,
and on their behalf, that we consider it a part of the obli-
gation we have undertaken to deal with the redistribution
of seats—(cheers) —and we have given it as our opinion
that this question may properly be dealt with by the Par-
liament whiCh now exists. My noble friend, in addition to
that, asks for specific information upon this point, which
we are not unwilling to give him. After the second read-
ing of the bill, and before the committee upon it, we shall
be prepared to state distinctly to the House of Commons
our intentions with regard to the franchise of Scotland,
the franchise of Ireland, and all the questions connected
with the redistribution of seats. (Cheers.) We wish to
convey those intentions in the form which will be most
convenient to the house, and we shall therefore put them in
the form of bills, and lay these bills upon the table at the
same time. (Cheers.) I cannot state too distinctly to the
house that wo are desirous above all things not to be mis-
understood; that our intention in laying these bills upon the
table is confined at the present time to the purpose which
I have named—namely, that of giving information to the
house. (Laughter and cheers.) We propose to proceed with
the bill relating to the franchise of England and Wales in
the manner in which I announced, and with the bill ex-
clusively, until its fate is determined. (Cheers.)

Earl GROSVRNOR said—l confess that the statement
made by my right lion. friend the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer somewhat surprised me ; but I hope I may be al-
lowed to thank him for the kind manner in which he men-
tioned my name in connection with the motion. Although
I consider myself implicated in that motion, and although
I do not desire to separate myself personally from it—
(hear, hear)—I believe I speak the feeling and conviction
of many hon. members of this house with whom I have
the honour of acting, when I state that any bill referring
to the representation of the people should be considered as
a whole— (hear, heat)—and I would beg to ask the right
hon. gentleman whether he still intends to proceed with
the second reading of the Franchise Dill before the house
shall have an opportunity of seeing what the other bills
aro which he proposes to lay upon the table?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Unques-
tionably. _ _

EarIGROSVENOR continued—The principle of a bill
is generally considered to be taken on the second reading.
I believe that the principle of that bill and the principle of
the other bills are so intimately connected that I cannot
myself see that it would be possible or statesmanlike to
take the sense of the house—(loud cheers)—on the second
reading of the Franchise Bill before the house should have
an opportunity of considering all those measures and the
whole of the proposals relating to the subject. (Cheers.)
Mr. KING LA KE said—The noble lord has just said that
the second reading of a bill is the occasion which Parliament
provides for the consideration of its principles. But it is
precisely for that reason that I proposed a motion carrying
to a later period in the existence of a bill the objection to
which I have referred. (Hear, hear.) The period when you
are considering the principle of a bill is the very last one
on which you are entitled to approach it by an objection
founded upon external circumstances. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) I entertain quite as strongly as it is possible for
the noble lord to entertain an objection to the idea of
separating the question of the franchise from the question
of redistribution of seats—(hear, hear),—and I have de-
termined that I will give effect to that objection, and that
I will give effect to it by my vote in this house, but that
I will choose my own time for submitting that objection
to the house. (Laughter.) It seems to me very clear that
the period of the second reading is the very last you can
ehoose for an objection of this kind. (Cries of "No," and
laughter from the Opposition sido of the house.) The
motion for leave to bring in the bill would have afforded,
I think, a better opportunity ; but the most appropriate
opportunity of all would bo that in which, after having
expressed our opinion on the principle of the measure, we
were invited to go into the consideration of its details. I,
for ono, am in a situation which 1 believe to be common to
that of many gentlemen iu this house—l am in the situa-
tion of having over and over again committed myself to
the principle which is to be confirmed by this bill. (Hear.)
And am I to follow the noble lord on that account so far
as to evade the opportunity of declaring my opinion on the
principle of this bill ? (Hear.) 1 have only to say that I
have taken this mode of giving effect to the view which 1
entertain. I prepare for myself an opportunity of asserting
the principle on which the noble lord has founded his ob-
jection quite as efficiently as he could do ; but I make that
consistent with the opportunity of voting upon the ques-
tion of the principle of the bill ; and I am not ashamed to
say that I am glad to find that I can make my view con-
sistent with a vote which will not be hostile to the party
with which I profess to act. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)

Mr. OLIPHAN r—After what has fallen from the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer I hope I may be permitted to say
a few words with reference to the motion which stands in
my name for the 10th April next. That motion is one for
the collection of data and statistics which may enable us
to determine whether a redistribution of seats and an
alteration of boundaries may be necessary. I gave notice
of that motion, not for the purpose of embarrassing her
Majesty's Government, but from a wish to draw from them
a clear and distinct assurance that a bill for the redistri-
bution of seats is regarded by them as a definite and dis-
tinct part of a scheme of reform ; and I am bound to say
that after what has fallen from the right hon. gentleman I
am satisfied—(ironical cries of " Hear, hoar")—that the
want of time, and the want of time alone, was the only
reason why the two bills have not been brought in toge-
ther; and as I now find that he is prepared, concurrently
with the passage of the Franchise Bill, to collect data and
materials on which the other measure could be for:roue
any
do not feel that I am called upon to press
amry ;line motion ;
further. (Hear.) I shall, therefore,
proceeded
be collected and that the other measure
of
fe
the Franchise Bill.
and, upon the understanding that thewsiethifeudrrtteh'ehte• data are to
with, I shall give my vote in favour
the
cheers of the op-
overbill that to
position side o
Mr. DISRAEf
the house,
face of an enemy is always a very
change your line in thiel
rs and laughter)—and I cannot
perilous operation—(c
hwohuos
er,o ssea
said—lt is pr. ,
that I think the course p ado ted by the Chancellor of
they Exchequer to-night is any exception to that principle.
(Hear,
hear.) So far as I can learn from the statement of
the right hon. gentleman, we are in much the same posi-
tion as we were before—(hear, hear)—we are called upon
to take a leap in the dark. (Cheers, laughter, and cries of
~No.") What is objected to in the amendment of the
noble lord who has just addressed the house, as I under-
stand it, is that the Government, having indulged in vague
and general allusions to alarge scheme, or to largo schemes,
of parliamentary reconstruction, has favoured us with a
distinct measure upon only one part of the question—(hear,
hear)—and that portion one which in the opinion of the
noble lord, and as I believe in the opinion of a majority of
the house and of the country, could not properly be dealt
with unless we had before us definite information as to the
other portions of the subject. (Hear, hear.) Now, the
right hon. gentleman does not at all pretend that we are
to be in any other position than that in which
we were
placed when he made his statement. We are to proceed
I with the bill respecting the franchise which he has intro-

(Hear, hear.) True it is that they are tAllepu
' into the form of bills; but then they are airs t 7
to be proceeded with. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I think this is -
trifling with the house. (Loud cheers.) It is obvious that
this great question has been introduced to us by men who
have not well considered it, who have changed their
opinions often during the time it was being prepared for
the consideration of tho house. There is evidence of great
inconsistency, of great want of judgment, of great waver-
ing on their parts ; and as always happens, timidity and
precipitation are nearly allied. (Cheers.) The right lion-
gentleman speaks as if ho had solved the great difficulties.
But the fact is that ho has not touched then: ; he has
only evaded them ; and the house is left in the same
nebulous.stato as before with regard to the policy of her
Majesty's Ministers. What security have we, if we pass the
franchise bill, that any of those views of the Government
which are to be laid before us in the shape of bills will be-
come law either in this or in any other cession? Tho
consequence is that the house may Le betrayed into the most
precipitate decisions upon points connected with a subject
which can never be brought to a happy solution, except
with a reference to other topics which the Government
will not now deal with, and wo are left thus, es
regards this matter, in . a state of complete mystification.
(Hear, hear.) If I may presume to offer any advice to her
Majesty's Government—(hear, hear, and laughter)—which
probably, with the numerous Cabinet Councils that are
now being called, and so hurriedly called, they may not be
in want of—(renewed laughter) would say this, that a
Government which has to deal with a great question in
the House of Commons, and wishes to treat it successfully,
should, above all things, treat the house with frankness,
(Loud cheers )

Mr. B. STANHOPE called attention to the " Electoral
Statistics" presented to the house, and particularly to the
absence of all information respecting copyholders and
leaseholders whose property is situate within the limits of
parliainentry cities and boroughs, and to the defective
character respecting occupiers in counties whose "gross
estimated rental is under X 50."

A discussion followed, in the course of which the re-
turns laid before the house were criticised by several hon.
members in connection with the effect upon various ccu)-
stituencies of a reduction of the franchise to £7 in
boroughs, and to £l4 in counties.

Lord R. MONTAGU, replying to the defence of the
returns sent up by Mr. Villiers on the part of the Govern-
ment, spoke of the right hon. gentleman as the pretended
friend of the working classes, and urged the necessity of
having the whole scheme of the Government relating to
the representation before the house.

Sir G. BOWYER reminded the house that another bill
besides that for the redistribution of seats was necessary,
and that was a boundary bill.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQITER, guided by
the precedent of the Reform Act of 1832, considered that
no such preliminary measure was required. In fact, it
was a matter of secondary consideration. Seizing then.
upon the remark which had fallen from Lord R. Montagu,
the right hon. gentleman, in angry tones, retorted upon
the noble lord the phrase he had applied to Mr. Villiers as
the " pretended friend" of the working classes, and de-
clared that if working men were introduced into the house
they would set him an example both of courtesy and good
breeding. Ile then taunted the Opposition, and Lord
Elcho amongst them, with acting as if they were endea-
vouring to ascertain the number of an invading army, in-
stead of dealing with their follow subjects, fellow Chris-
tians, and their own flesh and blood, whom they had
praised for their good conduct, and who had borne desti-
tution and almost starvation with a patience which their
superiors in the social scale would do well to imitate.
Lord CRANBORNE said it was of no use to give statis-
tics at all unless they were perfect. It was all very well to
come down and talk about these people being our flesh and
blood, and so on, but the fact was that they were not told
by the statistics how far the agricultural interest would be
swamped by the urban interest, and that in the boroughs
and counties they were told but imperfectly how far the
middle and upper classes would be swamped by the work-
ing classes. He believed that the bill of the Government
was, in reality, a proposal to transfer the tax imposing and
tax expending power from one portion of the community
to another.

After some remarks from Mr. GOSCHEN,

•
Mr. B. HOPE described the outburst of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer as :mounting the bonnet rouge, and his
observations in reply to Lord R. Montagu as rampant noh-
sense, or a direct appeal to the passions of the multitude in
favour of universal suffrage.

Mr. W. E. FORSTER believed there was no danger
whatever of the working classes banding themselves to-
gether for the accomplishment of any particular object.
They were less likely to do so than any other portion of
the community. But the way to make them act in that
manner was to show them tokens of hostility and suspicion.
Mr. FERRAND, in a house of eight members, which
was speedily reduced to one (the President of the Board
of Trade) called attention to the continued dangerous state
of existing public waterworks reservoirs, to the fact that
no provision had hitherto been made by Parliament to re-
tail a future supply of spring water for the inhabitants of
the districts from which the watcrsprings have been taken
away, and that the rights of landowners and farmers have
been entirely disregarded, and the public health injured
by the sources of rivers being withdrawn without suf-
ficient compensating reservoirs.
Mr. GIBSON said the Government had devoted consi-
derable attention to the subject, and that if the bill relating
to it then before the house went into committee, the hon.
member would have an opportunity of proposing clauses
to give effect to his views.

The motion for adjournment until Monday, the 9th of
April, was then agreed to, and at a quarter to nine o'clock
the house was counted out for the first time during the
session.

RAILWAY INTELLIGENCE.

RAILWAY BILLS.

In the House of Lords' Committee yesterday the
following bills were heard :—The Caithness Bill to
raise £130,000 by shares and £43,000 by loan, and
to make a railway of 21 miles GO chains in length,
from Wick to Thurso ; this was reported, with
amendments. The Downs Docks Bill was also re-
ported, with amendments.
The Standing Order Committee, in the case of the
Bridport, Lyme, and South Coast Bill, reported that
the standing orders ought to be dispensed with. In
the case of the London, Chatham, and Dover (new
lines) Bill, to make the following railways—the
first, of 69 chains, from Herne-hill to Knight's-hill ;
the second, of 40 chains, from the Loughborough-
road station of the London, Chatham, and Dover
Railway to Denmark-hill ; the third, of 18 chains,
from Peckham to Rye-lane ; the fourth and fifth, of
2 miles 22 chains, fromPeckham to Rotherhithe, and
the sixth, of 35 chains, from Lewisham road to
Greenwich—the standing orders were disposed with.
In Group 6, the opposition in the case of the Teiga
Valley was withdrawn. The Central Cornwall and
the Kingsbridge Bills were to be reported. The op-
position in the case of the Tavistock and Gunnislako
Bill was withdrawn. In Group 9, the preamble in the
case of the Macclesfield, Knutsford, and Warrington
Bill was proved. In the other committee the Wrexham
wasDs passed.
In and Miners Bill was passed. The Wrexham, Mold,
and Connah's-quay (additional capital) bill to raise
£300,000 by shares and £lOO,OOO by loan, was
E" stser
The Thames Tunnell Bill and the North-Eastern
orth-
(Durham new lines) Bill were a
Eastern (Yorkshire new lines)
nniltot°make 7 railways
lsorrsacise £1,426,000
by shares and £475,000 by
and Wetherby branch) Bills
e
North-Eastern (Leeds
11 and Hornsea and North-
-11
Iw4ams il
passed.e si n length,
T h e andi‘ia
Maidstone
oseailiarnunscat
aAanssdthafto2i station
chains
tri
were passed• The
in
tion Bill was passed. The Croft-
head Eastern Amalgamation
Extensions
of one mile 4i Bill, to make two
lwa andy
In the Referees' Court (A) the South-Eastern and
L(London, Lewes, and
Brighton), the Huddersfield Loud
Lancashire and Yorkshire (West Riding Branches),and
were adjourned.
lengthaol n(1 o n respectively,,
Ch a t i Chatham,

loan,
Bristol and Portish
In the Referees' Court (B), the Bristol Harbour
Junction
and Wharf D £
eppoietrßialnl
dw
la
Isa ipi
)h): aysasye dv. i 1 1 :I Itlo
raise 60,000 b y shead
ares c
and £20,000 _Bill
was
also passed. The Metropolitan District
3N,voaol sop absys e dl
of four
0. rile
to
enable the company
an,to
to acquire additional lands and
buildings in certain districts, and to confer power
to underpin, or otherwise strengthen, any houses
agg ength
within 100 feet of their raaim
re ate lwda:B,
Brixton, Balharn, and Clapham Extension Bill, to
rllalaiskeels2ixsOr,aouolovabyys
oslfla
arens,
miles six chains, from Balham and Streatham to
Claph and Brixton ; and to authorise the Lon-
don, aßrighton, and South Coast Railway Company
to subscribe £200,000, was to be reported. The
London, Chatham, and Dover (Kennington, Clap-
ham, and Brixton) Bill to raise £2,000,000 by
shares,
and £666,000 by loan, to make railways of
an ag_
grcgatc length of 9 miles 71 chains, was passed.
In the Examiner's Court the standing orders
in
the cases of the Solway Junction (Capital), and the
Metropolitan and St. John's-wood Bills were not
complied with. Thc East Strathmore
Bill was ad-
, jouruccl.