The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-19 00:00:00

CANADA.

Mr. ROEBUCK inquired of the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite whether a Commissioner had been appointed to pro-
ceed to Canada?

Sir R. PEEL had great satisfaction in informing the House,
a satisfaction in which be felt the House would participate, that
the Gentleman who for seventoen years had performed the
arduous duties of Speaker, had been prevailed upon to under-
take that mission, and bad accordingly been armed with the
necessary power.---( Loud cheers.)
An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not ascertain,
inquired of Sir R. Peel if it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to lay on the table of the House the papers submitted to
the Co amittee that sat last year on the subject of the Militia
List, and the report of the state of the Militia Staff?
Sir R. PEEL referred to the Secretary of State for the
Home Department.
Mr. GO ULBURN said that the papers were now under
his consideration, and if he found they could be produced with-
out detriment to the public service they would be laid before
the House at the mule time as the Militia Estimates.
Mr. HUME as a member of the Committee alluded to,
hoped they would be produced before that time.
Mr. SHEIL gave notice that he should to-morrow (this
day) ask the Secretary of the Home Department whether he
had received two addresses from Orange Lodges, and whether
any answers, if received, had been returned to those addresses,
with a view to taking the sense of the House on the legality of
such societies.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.

Sir J. CAMPBELL moved the Order of the Day for the
second reading of the Imprisonment for Debt Bill.
The question having been put from the Chair,
Mr. CARR UTHE RS rose to inquire if the Bill were to be
be referred to a Committee, for if not he had some objections
to offer to the measure ; but in that event he should defer them
till the Bill was before the Committee.

Sir J. CAMPBELL acquainted the Hon. Member that it
was customary on all occasions after a second reading to con-
sider a Bill in Committee.
Mr. RICHARDS had received numerous communications
from persons who entertained the utmost fears in consequence
of the introduction of this Bill. They did not object to the
details, for they had no opportunity of seeing them, but to the
principle of the measure. It seemed to be the object of this
Bill to assure the public that on all occasions creditors were
wealthy and debtors were poor, and that creditors ought on all
occasions to be merciful to debtors. By giving summary re-
medy too it appeared that it had been forgotten that while a
man owed money on the one hand, he might have money owing
to him on the other, and by this Bill he might be precluded
obtaining the amount of debts due to him in sufficient time to
meet an opposing claim. There was one remarkable thing
too with regard to this measure, and to which he begged to
draw the attention of the House, viz., that except from one
jail in the metropolis there was no petition in its favour. He
(Mr. Richards) had been for thirty years engaged on com-
mercial transactions, and he could not look upon the introduc-
tion of this measure as anything but a serious infliction on the
interests of trade, awl that if carried into execution it would
create a mortal disease in the body politic. The preamble
professed to facilitate the recovery of two things for the ad-
vantage of the creditor, which were bills of exchange and
bonds, but why were book-debts omitted? They were often
much larger than the two former mentioned securities. But
what he complained of was. that the great body of the public
most interested were entirely unacquainted with the purposed
details ; and before attacking the interests of such numerous
and great bodies they should have been consulted. He
should like to know if arrest of the person was abolished, what
protection housekeepers could have against that large mass of
the community who lived in lodgings ? Generally speaking
they had no chattels to seize, and obtained credit from day to
day, and from month to month, without any visible means of
subsistence; and yet this Bill would take away the power of
arrest and imprisonment, which was the only security the house-
keeper had against the fraudulent impositions of this class of
persons. Hon. Gentlenien who previously supported this
measure, had said that if bills of exchange were decreased by
-this Bill, as had been maintained, that those that were in cir-
culation would be all good ones. Now he never arrested five
men in his life, and would engage to say that nineteen bills out
of twenty were paid But the fact was, that some Hon. Gen-
tlemen set themselves up as Doctrinaires and Utilitarians, and
never troubled themselves about things as they were. The
Hon. Member for Bridport—(Cheers)—had he lived in some
fancy region, or was he so blinded by benevolent theories that
he forgot the state of society in which he existed ?—( Laughter. )
Why, 19-20ths, he might with as much safety say 99-100ths,
of the trade of this empire was carried on by credit, and that
credit by hills. Would they then, in this state of things, with
eight hundred millions of debt, and twenty millions of taxes,
be guilty of anything so monstrous and cruel as passing this
measure ? The Doctrinaires, • who had brought it forward,
were a set of people fond of applying general principles, with-
out entering into particular circumstances. They were mere
syllogism men, and cared not to look to consequences.—( Loud
laughter.)
Mr. BARING hoped that the Bill would have passed a se-
cond reading, and on the question that the Speaker leave the
Chair, they should have discussed its details. He would,how-
ever, leave the question in the hands of the Hon. Member for
Edinburgh.
Sir J. CAMPBELL could not consent to any delay. He
thought it would be cruel and unjust to those who were now
pining in a gaol,and were suffering from hope so long delayed.
The Hon. Member for Kaaresborough had said that no peti-.
tions had been presented, but as evidence of the anxiety of
the public on the subject he had lately received hundreds of
letters, urging on the prosecution of the measure. He erster-
tained the greatest possible respect for the opinions 'of the
Hon. Member for the R)ard of Trade, but he must persevere
in pressing the second reading.
Mr. A. BARING that although he did not participate
in the feelings of the Honourable Member for Knaresborouzh

on the subject of Doctrinaires and Theorists, yet he did think
the opinion of merchants and tradesmen to be worth all opi
nions coming from people of less experience. That the theor
of this Bill was correct he was ready to acknowledge—that
misfortune was no crime, and should not, if it could be avoided
meet with punishment, and least of all, the punishment df im-
prisonment. Yet the universal experience of mankind, and
the law of all nations, rendered it fair to conclude that the
possession of the person of the debtor, was the only effectual
method of recovering the debt. That it was repugnant to feel-
ing he admitted ; but with that fact before him he was inclined
to think it was the only means of remedy. He had every de-
sire to carry out the principle of the measure, but he could not
see what method could be pursued for getting at the property
of a debtor if they could not get at his person. With every
anxiety to concur in the measure, be could not see how the
difficulty of getting at tile property was to be obviated. He
thought it chiefly concerned the tradesmen of the country.
From being many years connected with trade, he knew that
the people with whom the larger merchant was in the habit of
dealing were more interested in the safety of their credit than
of their person ; but this was not so with the smaller trades-
men, who, he thought, would become the victims of the thou-
sands of swindlers who would swarm the country. It cer-
tainly was an offence, and what in the present state of the law
was the punishment ? A man might be confined for about five
weeks under the present Insolvent Act, and he held, notwith-
standing the pathetic appeal of the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, that that was not a grievance to be compared to the dan-
ger which could arise fram the adoption of a contrary practice.
'The Hon. Member for Middlesex thought that he could an-
swer every objection by saying that the present Bill would do
away with credit. He (Mr. A. Baring) apprehended that
credit was necessary. Men of large capital required it, even
persons of the largest capital required the operation of cre-
dit, and, a fortiori, the retail tradesman most require it.
For his part he would feel much pleasure if he could come
to the same conclusions upon the subject as the Hon. and
Learned Member for Edinburgh; hut he was bound to con-
fess that his apprehensions of the eff2cts of the Bill were by
no means few nor slight. He would confess, however, that
there was a great deal of the Bill which was extremely useful,
and he believed that the commerce of the country would on
this score find itself much indebted to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman. America was very anxious for the personal li-
berty of her citizens, and her laws affecting that personal li-
berty were sufficiently relaxed ; and yet she had no such state
of law as that contemplated by the present measure. France
and Holland had not such a law ; and, in fact, in no part of the
world did such a law exist.—( Hear.) Was it prudent then to
make such an experiment in the most artificial country upon
earth, a country more filled with the chevaliers d'industrie than
any other, and more full of that description of swindlers which
preyed upon credit. He had but one m--)re observation to make,
and that was upon the facility which the Bill gave for the re-
covery of the amount of bond debts. There was a class of per-
sons in this country who should he informed of the manner in
which this Bill was likely to affect them. The Bill gave a
summary remedy against all persons who had signed a bond.
Now there was at least one hundred thousand of these bonds
afloat between families for the purposes of loans being taken
up, and other persons who gave bonds on mortgages creating
a lien on ths.ir estates had by the practice of the country six
months's given them before the money was sued for.
Sir J. CAMPBELL, interrupted the Right Hon. Gentle-
man across the table, but in a voice scarcely audible in the
Gallery. We understood the Learned Gentleman to say that
such bonds might be sued upon immediately.
Mr. BARING continued—All persons of landed property
knew that by the practice of the country they could get or did
get a very considerable allowance of time. When a mortgage
was to he called in by the present Bill, judgment could be
obtained upon the bond in ten days, and in ten days more
the property of the person who had signed the bond could be
seized, or put into the hands of trustees, if the demand were
not otherwise satisfied. Then he had to complain that the
most arbitrary power was given to these trustees. They
could select what property they pleased out of a man's estate
and sell it, to satisfy the bondholder, and could do just as they
might think fit, without responsibility or control. All he
could say was, that the proprietors of land throughout the
kingdom ought to know that this was the proposed' alteration
to be made in the laws of the country. Ile had thrown out
these general observations upon the principle of the Bill, and,
though he should not now oppose the Bill passing through
another stage, he should reserve to himself thb privilege of
giving it his opposition in detail.
Sir J. CAMPBELL was of opinion that it was of the
greatest importance that the House should without delay de-
cide upon the principles of the Bill.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
A Committee had spent days, and v. eeks, and months in di-
gesting the provisions and details of the Bill, and from the
manner in which -the Bill had been received by the House
when he had first introduced it, he firmly anticipated that the
principle of the Bill would meet with the approbation of a
very great majority in that House—( Hear, hear)—and that
it would be sent to a Select Committee with such an over-
whelming majority in its favour, that without any difficulty
it would become the law of the land.---( Hear. ) He was sur-
prised to hear the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade
lament that Bills of this. description cantered through the
House, for all who knew anything of the prorress of Reform
in the two Houses of Parliament very well knew that such
Bills did the very reverse of cantering or galloping through
their stages, notwithstanding which, however, he did entertain
sanguine hopes that the present measure would pass without
any very serious delay—•( Hear.) Merchants who dealt with
• millions, and petty shopkeepers, had equally been examined
by the Committee, and that Committee, after the most minute
examination of every class and condition of traders, had come
to a determination that a measure of the present description
would prove of the most essential benefit to the whole commu-
nity. Upon the report of that Committee a Bill had been
framed, had been brought into Parliament in the last session,
and had been most widely circulated all over the country. He
denied that any man could plead ignorance of the Bill, and he
equally denied the assertion of the Right Hen. the Presid nt
of the Board of Trade that the Bill was peculiarly calculated
for the benefit of debtors. It was a Bill of general provi-
sions, equally calculated for the benefit of debtor and credi-
tor, and for the advantage of the general credit and character
of the country.—( Hear, hear, hear.) What w ere the enact-
ments of the Bill ? The first provision was a summary exe-
cution on bonds and bills of exchange. The clause gave a
power of summoning a debtor, of compelling him on oath
to disclose the state of his real and personal property,
and of sending him to gaol if he refused to give a satisfac-
tory statement. The third provision subjected to the pro-
cess of execution the property of every debtor, let it be of
what description it might.—( Hear, hear.) By the present law
money could not be taken; bills of exchange could not be ta-
ken ; money in the bank could not be taken ; copyhold lands;
and many other species of landed property could not be takan ;
and, in fact, the most fraudulent and profligate of debtors might
live in all the luxuries of the earth upon the property of their
creditors, and run those creditors to ruinous expense, and set
them at defiance. Such was the present state of the law of
this enlightened country, and he was glad that so few were to
be found who did not wish the law to be altered. The next
head of the Bill embraced the principle of the sessio bonorum.
%he next was a provision eminently calculated to punish the
frauds of the chevalier d'industrie, of which the Right Hon. the
President of the Board of Trade complained. Last of all came
that great enactment, which did not abolish imprisonment for
debt, as the Right Hon. Gentleman supposed, but abolished
it in cases of fraud, making a distinction, which the present
law did not make, between the honest and fraudulent debtor.
—( Hear, hear.) These were the heads of the Bill, and now
he would advert to the objections that had been made against
them. The Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade had
sounded the toscin of alarm to all persons who had mortgages
on their estates, lest payment should be enforced on their bonds
in the space of twenty days. In fact, however, the Bill gave
no facility to sue upon mortgage bonds, and only met those
cases where false and fraudulent pretences were urged for not
paying the amount. What were the pleas by which the indul-
gence of time, of which the Right Hon. Gentleman spoke,
was now obtained? The party had to plead that he had never
signed or sealed the bond which he had signed or sealed, and
which stood in flagrant evidence against him; and he had to
plead that he had given a horse or some other fictitious thing
an satisfaction, or he had to put in seine other sham plea, by
which he compelled his creditor to go to trial, and to throw
away his money ; in some cases to throw away good money
after bad--( Hear, hear)—and thus to arTavate the injury he
had originally sustained. But the Right Hon. Gentleman
had said that there was no country in which an experiment si- •
milar to the present had been tried. Did not the Right Hon.
Gentleman know that a similar law existed in France, in Ger-
many, in Italy, and in Scotland, and in which latter country it
was well known that it operated beneficially.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) But at present, by the law which the Right Hon. Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade did not wish to see altered, a
mortgagee might sue on his bond, and the other party, if he
did not pay, must plead a lie, and by his fraud and chi-
canery he could put off the evil day for only three or four
weeks, for the Right Hon. Gentleman was not aware that
by certain Bills which the Judges had most properly made,
the old extent of frauds had been suppressed.. This rule
had been found to act beneficially in many instances, and
prejudicially in none. ( Hear, hear, hear.) The present
Bill would prevent the debtor's money being spent amongst
lawyers when it ought to go to the creditors.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) The next enactment was that debtors were to
be summoned before Judges after judgment had been passed.
The effect of this clause was to assimilate the law between
pe sons in trade and those that were not in trade. At pre-
sent a man in trade might fail for one million, and he was
protected if he made a full disclosure of his assets. If he
absconded, or concealed his property, then he could be sent
to gaol. Now he only wished the Right Honourable Pre,
sident of the Board of Trade to tell him why a man not in
trade who owed :500/. should, as a matter of course, be sent
to gaol, whilst he in trade who owed a million should be
free ?—( Hear.) It was a most disgraceful thing that in
England all property of every sort was not liable to the pay-
ment of just debts.—( Hear.) The present law of England
was not very creditable to the country, and it was such that in
his opinion few honourable men would wish for its continuance.
The present distinctions between the liabilities of personal and
real property occasioned the greatest frauds to be committed.
It was Sir Samuel Romilly who had first endeavoured to effect
an alteration in the law. In his day a man might have bor-
rowed 50,0001., bought land with 'it, die the next day, leave
the land to his son or heir, and the creditor or creditors who
had advanced the 50,0001. could not recover one single shil-
ling, as real property was not liable to the obligations of simple
contract debts.—( Hear, hear, hear ) The Right Honourable
the President of the Board of Trade would see therefore that
improvements did not canter or gallop through the Houses of
Parliament. It was not until the last session that a Bill had
been brought into Parliament by the son of Sir Samuel Ro-
milly, and by which simple contract creditors had a general
remedy against the real estate of the debtor. Sir Samuel
4 Romillv's Bill had carried the principle no further than that