The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-19 00:00:00

would contend that the post-office at Glasgow was not
equally important with the post-office at Edinburgh.
Where, then, were they to draw the line ? Was this sore
to be left open for ever? (Hear.) A large proportion of
the public servants died, he regretted to say, without
having attained the age for retirement, and he did not be-
lieve the bill would add more than 12 or 13 per cent. to the
amount already paid which was about £lOO,OOO.
Colonel SYKES thought that as the higher public ser-
vants were provided with pensions the lower ought to have
the same advantage. The increase of ten or twelve thou-
sand a year was nothing, compared with the importance of
increasing the good will of the large body of public servants
whose interests were involved in the passing of this bill.
Mr. E. ELLICE (Coventry) regarded the bill as a mere
corollary to the abolition of the system of abatements. He
thought the scale of superannuation now proposed was pre-
ferable to the old scale, because it reduced the allowances of
those who retired early, and increased the allowances of
those who retired at an advanced period of life.
Sir G. C. LEWI S was willing to accept the consequence
of the decision of the house with regard to abatements ; but,
while he approved of the scale now proposed, in so far as it
converted the septennial arrangement into annual payments,
he saw no reason why the scale of allowances fixed at pre-
sent should be increased. If he thought the effect of pass-
ing this bill would be substantially to increase the scale of
payments he should vote for the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
think the effect of passing the bill would be substantially to
increase the scale of payments. No doubt there would be
some slight increase, but that had not beenoccasioned by any
wish to increase the payments. The scale now proposed was
that recommended by a committee of that house and by a
royal commission, and the reason why there was a slight in-
creasein a portion of it was that the scale had been formed
withthe view of securing that annual progression which had
been thought desirable. Generally speaking, this bill only
legalised what was before the practice of the Treasury, a
practice which was adopted in order to correct inequalities
in the existing scale. The right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) was mis-
taken in supposing that the communications between the
Treasury and the other public offices were not complete.
They were complete, and the principle had been established
that those who were to receive superannuation allowances
must have passed through an examination by the Civil
Service Commissioners. The hon. baronet who proposed
this amendment had endeavoured to alarm the house by
speaking of the immense number of persons who would
receive superannuation allowances if the bill became law.
There might be an apparent increase from 16,000 to 30,000,
but this would be owing to the fact that there were included
in the bill a large number of persons who before received
pensions from other sources. The actual increase caused
by the bill would not, he believed, exceed from 6,000 to
8,000 persons, and this addition would be subject to the con •
trol of the Treasury, which would be a sufficient check
upon abuse. The right hon. gentleman the member for the
University of Oxford expressed a hope that before the dis-
cussion closed the Government would give the house infor-
mation on three points ; first, as to the class of persons
whom they proposed to bring under the operation of the
bill ; secondly, as to whether they intended to revise the
public salaries; thirdly, as to what was their estimate of the
increased charge which the bill would impose on the country.
With regard to the first point, he would observe that all
those who were included in the schedule of the existing act,
and all who had been added since, such as the Poor-
law Commissioners, the officers connected with the edu-
cation department, and others would come under the pro-
visions of this bill; and to these must be added the two
classes of public servants who had been so frequently re-
ferred to in the debate, namely, those connected with the
dockyards and those connected with the Post-office. With
regard to the second point, he would refer to the opinion of
the Royal Commissioners. Those commissioners thought
that a revision of public salaries would be impracticable,
and was not desirable ; they gave their reasons for arriving
at that conclusion, and the Government concurred in their
opinion. On the third point, that which related to the
increased charge which the bill would throw on the country,
it would be presumption in him to add anything to what
had fallen from the hen. member for Devonport (Mr. J.
Wilson). He believed that the hon. gentleman's estimate
was well founded, and that the increased expenditure
would be rather under than over what he had calculated.
Supposing that to be the case, would the house hesitate for
a moment to pass a bill which was founded on principles of
policy and justice, which had long been required, and fairly
required, by the public, and which, after a considerable
amount of controversy, seemed likely to lead to a satisfac-
tory settlement of the question ? (Cheers.)
The house then divided, when there appeared :
Ayes l3l
Noes
29-102
The house then went into committee.
Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.
On clause 3,
Colonel NORTH remarked that under it perrons who
had arrived at the age of 65, though they might be hale
and hearty, were obliged to retire, which might be a great
loss to them.
The clause was agreed to.
Clause 4 was also agreed to, with the following amend-
ment proposed by Sir S. NORTHCOTE, providing that " in
respect of such office or class of offices, the holder may be
entitled to superannuation, though he may not he hold his
appointment directly from the Crown, and may not have
entered the service with a certificate from the Civil Service
Commissioners."
On clause 7,
Sir F. BARING proposed to omit "ten years," and to
in•ert the words, "the number of years he has actually ser-
ved." The effect of the clause as it stood would be, that
persons who were discharged from inefficiency would be in
a better position than those who were kept in the service.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the object of the clause was to
give facilities for getting rid of unnecessary clerks.
The committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it l6l-73
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 8 being objected to by Sir F. BARING, was struck
out.

On clause 11,
Sir F. BARING censured the principle of allowing civil
servants, when they attained the age of 60, to retire if they
pleased, although they might still bo podeotly able to dis-
charge the duties of their situation.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that they already practically
possessed this privilege at the age of 65, and the clause only
reduced the age to 60. Not to allow the right of retirement
at advanced age only caused a resort to loosely worded
medical certificaces. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL said that at present persons 65 years of
age had the right to retire. This bill would place persons
of 60 in the same position. Now many persons from 60 to
65 were the most efficient public servants, and as the pre-
sent system had worked well, he did not see why it should
be altered.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the proposed alteration would add
considerably to the burdens of the country, and as he did
not see any reason for the change, he would move that the
age of 65 be substituted for the age of 60.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE defended the clause.
After a few words from Mr. MILES and Colonel NORTH,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
according to the present system the public had the benefit
of 40 years' service from public servants. In the civil ser-
vice of France persons were allowed to retire at 55 years
of age. He trusted the committee would agree to the
clause.
After a few remarks from Mr. Wilson, Mr. Salisbury,
and Mr. Malins, the committee divided. The numbers
were—

For the amendment
Against it
156
Majority
--56
Clause 11 was then agreed to.
Clause 12 passed without remark.
On clause 13, which provides exemptions from compul-
sory retirement at the age of 65, including judicial officers
and others appointed late in life,
Sir S. NORTHCOTE proposed to include all officers
appointed by order or warrant of the Treasury.
After a conversation,
The amendment was withdrawn, on the understanding
that a proviso should be introduced at a future stage.
Mr. STUART moved that the operation of the clause
should bo deferred for three years from the Ist of January
next.

After a few words more it was agreed that clause 13
should be postponed.,
On clause 14 Mr. BovILL moved an amendment, which
was agreed to, providing for the case of a person trans-
ferred from one office to another ; but another amendment
of his, providing for the case of a renewal of public em-
ployment, was not persisted in.
A slight amendment was made by Mr. Rim in clause 15,
and the other clauses, as far as clause 20, were agreed to.
Sir S. NORTHCOTB said he had a clause to add, that
no person should be deemed to be in the civil service of the
state, or entitled to superannuation allowance, unless he
held his appointment direct from the Crown, or had his
salary provided out of the Imperial funds. This clause,
however, was postponed.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house
resumed.

The Highways Bill, East India Loan Bill, Title to Landed
Estates Bill, Registry of Landed Estates Bill, Registry of
Births in Ireland Bill, and Markets in Ireland Bill were
successively postponed.
The Sale of Poisons Bill went pro forma through com •
mitto.
The Consolidated Fund Bills, £1,222,389, and the other,
£11,000,000, went throngh committee.
NOTTINGHAM CHARITIES BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
ECTON 'AND WELTON EXCHANGE BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
PETITIONS OF RIGHT BILL.

This bill passed through committee.
AFFIDAVITS BY COMMISSION BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
NEWSPAPERS BILL.
Mr. AYRTON wished to know if the Government ob.
jetted to this bill, because if they did he would fix the
cornmitiee for some other day ?
Mr. CAIRNS said he referred to the acts intended to be
repealed. The Government had no objection to the repeal
of the first three acts, so far as they related to newspapers.
Nit with regard to the 6th and 7th of Will. IV., and the 2d
and 3d of Vic., which required the registration of the pro-
prietors of newspapers at Somerset-house, the Government
thought those acts ought not to be repealed.
Mr. AYRTON said that under these circumstonces he
should postpone the committee till the 6th April.
MILITARY ORGANISATION.
Captain VIVIAN moved that the following members
should constitute the committee on military organisation :
Viscount Pahnerston, Lord John Russell, Lord Hotham,
Sir James Graham, the Judge-Advocate, Mr. Edward
Moo, Mr. Sidney Herbert, Mr. Walpole Mr. Horsman,
Sir John Ramsden, Sir William Codrington,' Mr. Monsell,
Colonel *William Patten, the Earl of March and Captain
Vivian, Power to send for persons, papers, and records ;
five' to be the quorum.
Mr. MA.CARTNEY objected to the constitution of the
committee on the ground that a majority was taken from
one side of the house, besides which two of the members
would probably be examined before the committee.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST also objected to the composition
of the committee. There was not enough of military men
on the committee.
Captain VIVIAN said he had no party object whatever
in view in proposing the committee or in selecting the
names,

Oexteral PEEL said he had no objection to the composi-
tion of the committee.
The committee, as proposed, was then appointed.
PUBLIC CONTRACTS.
lanai BOLDERO moved for a select committee to in-
quire into the principle adopted for making contracts for the
public' departments, and the effect which the present system
has upon the expenditure of public money.
Agreed to.