The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-01 00:00:00

NATIONAL EDUCATION.

Lord BROUGHAM moved the Order of the day for re-
suming the adjourned discussion upon his resolutions respect-
ing the above subject.
Viscount MELBOURNE said he would certainly have
liked to have heard more upon the subject before he had been
called upon to address their Lordships. He had listened with
great satisfaction to the speech of his Noble and Learned Friend
on introducing those resolutions, and he had had the pleasure of
reading them in an authenticated shape, and, of course, had
had more time to study the convincing arguments put forth
upon that occasion. He agreed with his Noble Friend in all
his arguments, and agreed also in the principles then advanced,
which he bad no doubt would produce all the effect which his
Noble Friend expected from them, so far as it was posssible to
place any reliance upon any opinions or principles of a specula-
tive nature. He agreed in the possibility of carrying them
into effect, and was perfectly convinced that great benefits
would accrue from early education—provided that education
did not lead to too close a confinement, which was destruc-
tive to the animal spirits, and led to the destruction of the
human frame ; and also if? it did not interfere with that course
of natural instruction, so beautifully described in the opening
of his Noble and Learned Friend. He believed that the plan
proposed was feasible and practicable, and he quite agreed
with his Noble Friend that the subject was one deserving
of the most serious attention of the Parliament. He was quite
of opinion that the country would be much more moral if it
had the benefits of early education, and he entirely agreed
with his Noble and Learned Friend that there were now many
and pernicious abuses in the old schools which had been
established by foundations. He then came to take a
very short examination of the resolutions now before their
Lordships. He here begged to suggest to his Noble and
Learned Friend, whether the way of proceeding by resolu-
tions was the most safe, the most expedient, or the most
advantageous means of carrying into effect his own plans.
He did not think that justice could be done to this subject by
means of resolutions. He had read them, and it appeared to
him as if they intended to convey that nothing had been done on
this subject before, and as if the matter were entirely a re t;
integra et intacta, and as if neither House of Parliament
had taken any steps upon the subject. He would
remind his Noble and Learned Friend that, in the session of
1833 and 1834, under the auspices of the Government, and
very much at the recommendation of the Noble Lord
himself, the sum of 50,0001. had been voted for the
only
f this,p rombouttingwhtehae educationoGf
otvheer a
mcoeuanttry,and
not retired
pfrumpooesaffiel
office,
they found amongst the Estimates that it was the
intention of that Government to propose a similar grant for
the present year, and this intention his Majesty's present
Government weredetermined to follow up. But not only was
the money granted, but they were disposed to agree
with the Noble Lord upon any great principle which that
Noble Lord had inculcated in his speech on a former oc-
sasion.—( Hear, hear.) One of those principles was done, that
this money should be given for the building new schools.
It was unnecessary for him to explain that this was that
private benevolence might be stimulated, not repressed
by public aid ; and this principle was inculcated by
the Noble and Learned Lord with that strength of
argument and felicity of illustration which belonged to
him.—( Hear, hear.) Another principle upon which these
grants were made was, that all applications should be
made through the National Society, or the British and
Foreign School Society. And this mode of proceeding was
found to be in the highest degree satisfactory to all
parties—both those connected with the English Church, and
also the great body of Dissenters who had a share in
the benefit of this grant. It was not his intention to remark
upon those regulations—he would avoid that question
because it was impossible otherwise, at least so he apprehended,
to avoid a discussion in that House upon questions arising
from the unfortunate differences of religious opinion which
prevailed in that country—differences which he was sure was
always painful to hear made a subject of public discussion,
especially when they were able to avoid it ; and at the same
time to give satisfaction to all parties concerned. There was
not a principle in. these resolutions which had not been ad-
mitted in Parliament, and he did, therefore, submit
to the House, and particularly to the Learned and Noble
Lord, whether he thought it necessary, especially after
he had given his most decided assurance on the part of
the Government, of their anxious wish to promote a system
of education by all means in their power, and upon the prin-
ciples which the Noble Lord proposed—he put it to him whe-
ther, upon the whole, he thought it prudent to press it upon
the House, to place these resolutions upon their journals.—
( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not question the
truth of the greater part of these resolutions—he thought
many parts of them were somewhat too generally worded.
By the 3d and 6th resolutions, it was proposed to call their at-
tention to the establishment of Infant Schools. He admitted
the advantages, the necessity, and the utility of Infant
schools, and he had endeavoured to encourage them by
all the means in his power; but he rather doubted,
,if the
resolutions were adopted, whether it would be a wise
means of calling the attention of the public to the
encouragement of these institutions. He knew a little of
these infant schools himself. There was one establish-
ment in that part of the country with which he was con-
nected, and considering that the funds, though large, were not
sufficient, and upon representations which had been made to
him he had contributed to supply the requisite expenses.
He did not know that he should have done so, if he had
had those resolutions so distinctly and clearly before
his eyes : they would have a little chilled his benevolence, and
he doubted much whether other persons, before contributing
in a like manner would not say " let us first try the
Government, and see what we can get out of them."—
( A laugh.) Feeling that this might be the result,
he thought that others might have the same feelings,
and he doubted, therefore, whether it would be wise or
prudent to point the attention of the public so much and so
distinctly to the public aid that was professed to lee given in
favour of these schools. Respecting the establishment of
model-schools, a measure on that subject had been under the
consideration of the Government. With respect to the 9th
and Bth resolutions, which went to establish a Board
of Commissioners with control over all charities, and with
the management of all charitable funds bequeathed for pur-
poses of education, he apprehended that such a Board was
not entirely new. He believed that such a Board had been
adopted in Ireland, and had worked well ; but consider-
g the great extent of power given the delicacy
of the matter—and considering also how very much the pro-
priety of the resolutions would depend on the details of the
means by which they were called into effect—he ventured
to put it to the Noble and Learned Lord whether he would call
upon the House by a single vote in one night, by way of reso-
lution, to lay down a principle of such importance and magni-
tude. Upon these grounds, he recommended to the Noble
and Learned Lord not to press his resolutions.-4 Hear, hear. )
Lord BROUGHAM—It would be an ill return to the
Noble Lord's candour and courtesy to press these resolutions
to a division, especially as he did not believe the House
would agree with him if he did.—(" Hear," and a laugh. )
The resolutions he had proposed were distinct and clear. In
1833 resolutions were passed in both Houses recognizing
the principle of free trade in tea to China, and in
in the same year resolutions were passed for the abolition of
slavery in the West Indies. Now, no objection had been taken
to the mode of proceeding in either of these cases, and although
he was no great stickler for precedent on all occasions, still he
thought no objection would be made to it on the present occa-
sion. His Noble Friend complained that he had not
done justice to the measures that had been adopted by
fodnph2loeiardi
cd:nmot
not
obdnrotetlo.G:f
reneoewai vtlgnhae
irysret
anronnmgttteiheeevedeneer:tns.hss
be;aournyltGttthohesubject,
this
hoayedegmrobwni
egmoaehusne b n
might
nttoaaowfpttuepi
histdt
appear
he
rt
we ( h
waawrthaaeLai
ye ohsat rd Bro
ugham)
did
that
eepoamfyws ouousarrnaosge hm
oc
con-
nected
but
he hoped a more liberal allowance would be granted hereafter.
It was erroneous to suppose the grant made by Government was
all that had been expended on the education of the people,
because nearly twice as much had been advanced from private
sources. He differed from him when he spoke of infant schools,
and that the proposed plan would be the means of suppressing
private benevolence. The funds had been generally entrusted
to the National and British and Foreign Society for distribu-
tion, and this plan had appeared to give satisfaction to all
parties. He lamented the deficiency of infant schools,
which,epool population leant6ei oo2nfiofot ofho
of
fourteenpupils.th deficiency adult
schools d
deficiency
, inadl
tamingc t
ho
schools, and of these latter there ought to t
more than there were now, He infant
nye or six times
ttould be -sorry if great exer-
tions were not made f.'sYr this purpose. There was_ no mode
of criminal legislation, these was -no kind of penal law, there
was no description cif punishment which the civil magistrate
ttbliaieel.rct,establishment
n erather
it
ehunarconeef
had the one-hinidreth, nay, the one-thousandth pcaarrte ,0
f whichth e
ul
mold Site towards the people committed to his
—viatta t.
o punishment.infant schools
Punishment
effect.
behind
e hp
iunrd-
Power of eradicating crimes from society which the universal
pur-
pose, as he bad often told them, they must look to
movedpreven-
tion.
es
which
ehb ai t slowpe
o m andies netdhl uncertain
hear.)
.euryt
withouta
preventingißn Tesittnehgpe—a bi teftiatt
shedi advanced, naecocefde access
realized,oh ouo
dtf
atad a halting pace, in its pursuit after the criminal, while all the
might be
e secured
dplie into. minds Las yet untainted with its
Hear,—y-(pre
principles, and by that alone, could they hope to eradicate
those crimes with which society was at present harrassed.
He should- feel that every day was lost, not devoted to the
purpose by the lawgiver and the Government of this
close-peopled, wealthy, and Manufacturing country, in which
their
rel
habits,tdOifs trhi
uapt
lielodonpol people
fromlwv
ea as thest
hoc,igrbreyeuam:
which
arisingtiaenh c
hse
anf rcroei mda
et
entsthii
riches vtaor iaetti vautnlocif
the variety_he had almost said -the variegation—of the moral
the most squalid poverty were almost found side by side. It
xv?:s frce.lsary that the-Government of such a country should
lose not One 'hour in taking the preventive means which about
could be efficaciously employed in the repression of crime, and
that the great towns of London, Maiachsteri iteeds, $llO -field,

Liverpool, and others, should be aK speedily as pos,iblc amply
supplied with these mean,. Every day not employed by the
ruler and the Government in such a pursuit might be deemed
to be thrown away and wasted. There ought to be no diffi-
culties in the distribution. He agreed that religious educa-
tion should form a part of general education, and he hoped
that means would be adopted to render it possible to attain
that end without incurring the danger of exciting religious
disputes. This brought him to the subject of the sixth reso-
lution. That related to the administration, by a Board of
Commissioners, of charitable funds already existing. He did
not propose to take the management of the funds out of the
hands of the present trustees.—( hear, hear.) He proposed
to go hand in hand with them, taking care only that the
funds they possessed should be properly managed. By the
proposed measure of Municipal Reform they were going to
establish a new body of constituents, who were more likely to
interfere actively in the management of Corporations than
the old. They were about to take the management of cha-
ritable funds from the old corrupt Corporations, and give it to
the new bodies. It might be said, " You are never going to
take the trust from those to whom it was given by the donor,
and to transfer it to other parties."—( Hear, hear, we believe
from the Earl 'of Falmouth.) He was far from saying that
they ought not to do so; in his opinion they ought. The
cheers of the Noble Earl so seldom met his ears that he might
be supposed to feel a solace from them he must not purchase
it, however, by false pretences—therefore he begged to say
that if the Noble Earl supposed he agreed with him in de-
precating that change he was mistaken ; he was merely stat-
ing the fact that the Bill would have that effect. He did not
complain of it ; on the contrary he thought it a useful reform,
provided it was accomplished with proper checks.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) He would say, then, that because they were
now going to pass this strong Act, and he would add this
necessary and salutary Act, making that transfer from the
old to the new body, and perhaps to a body to whom
the donor never would have given the trust, if at the time
when he made the bequeit it, had been in existence, and he
had been acquainted with its nature—( Hear, hear)—he
was giving the Noble Earl (Earl Falmouth, we believe,) the
full benefit of the argument—he was fairly and candidly stat-
ing the case, and let the Noble Earl make the worst and the
most of it—because they were going to transfer from those
corporations which were now the sinks of corruption—(the No-
ble Earl intimated dissent)—he knew there were many that were
pure : some were exceedingly pure ; he knew one that was
perfectly pure, and so did the Noble Earl.—( Laughter.) He
was about to say, because they were going to pass this mea-
sure, now was the time, when they were turning over a new
leaf, when they were making a new distribution of trust power,
when they were taking the management of property out of the
hands of one body and giving it to another—now was the time
for them to see whether they could not establish an effectual
controul against the abuse of trusts. Under the old system
such an alteration was not called for in individual cases ; be-
cause the system had endured for two or three hundred
years ; but when they were about to form a different consti-
tution and a new body, he felt it to be their imperative duty
to see that the strongest precaution was taken to prevent
the possibility of this new arrangement leaving the funds,
as before, subject to be mismanaged. The plan he had
to recommend would, he thought, be the most convenient
and fit mode of giving that security. There would exist a
body of respectable persons, consisting of Ministers of State
and working men, who would exercise a constant supervision
and control, instead of leaving that duty to the most inefficient,
or to the, in every respect, inconvenient operation of filing an
information. The course open at present was for some indi-
vidual to become a relator, at whose instance an attorney filed
au information, for the costs of which the relator was liable.
It was true any one Might become a relator who chose, but
very few liked to involve themselves in all the perils of a
Chancery suit. The mode of proceeding by petition was in
some respects better, but that was attended with considerable
expense. He apprehended that the appointment of a Board
would be the-best course. They would exercise a control
which would be the more likely to be exercised with im-
partiality and strict propriety, as they would be wholly in-
dependent of the Corporation. With respect to this ques-
tion they were now in a situation in which they had not
been for the last twenty years. The control of the Com-
missioners of Charities had ceased. The Commission ex-
pired last July—and indeed for the last eight or nine
months they had not sat for any effectual purposes. The
consequence was, that the whole of the trusts all over
the country, thinking the Commission was at an end, and
having little reason to fear that they would be called over
the coals by any one adopting proceedings against them in the
Court of Chancery, felt themselves quite secure. That their
Lordships might see what would be the usefulness of a Board,
he would refer to one case in which the Commissioners called
the trustees before them. They discovered that forty or fifty
children were benefitted by the trust, but that the funds were
sufficient for the children of half a dozen parishes, containing
a population of five or six thousand people. In another case
the trustees consisted of a Committee, and it having been de-
cided that it was illegal that the Committee should employ any
of its own members, se determined were they to evade the de-
cision, that under an arrangement by which the Committee was
changed every year, they employed their predecessors, the
effect being that their profits were reduced one half, for in the
succeeding year it became the turn of those who had given
employment to receive it. Where there were two sets of
butchers, bakers, and other tradesmen, their profits were not
diminished at all, the only change made being, that instead
of the two tradesmen affording the supply for the half year
each, they were alternately employed for the whole year.
With respect to his resolutions, his Noble Friend having
expressed an opinion, he would not stand out against his better
judgment. He had no hesitation in stating, that having laid
these resolutions before their Lordships, having had them
printed, and their having undergone, both on the last and on
this occasion some discussion, substantially the end he had in
view had been gained, for the subject was now no longer new
to any one. He should, under these circumstances, be enabled
with the less trouble to give them a measure founded on these
resolutions. What he proposed, then, was to withdraw
them, and substitute for them a Bill, which in a few days
he would have the honour of presenting to their Lordships.
In conclusion, he thanked them for the attention with
which they had heard his explanation ; he thought it would
not have been fair either to the resolutions or himself, if
he had withdrawn them without making a few observations on
the subject.
The resolutions were then withdrawn.

Lord BROUGHAM hoped their Lordships would allow
him to refer to a very great misrepresentation that had been
made of what he uttered on a former occasion. He was
most unwilling to give the French Government any cause of
complaint. He had been accused in the French newspapers
of having stated that the French Government precluded the
study of history. Now this was not only not true, but he
had expressly stated that in the observations he made he did
not mean to allude to France. He did not name the Go-
vernment to which he referred, because it was not a pleasant
thing to do that which might be considered invidious. Yet
in the French newspapers he had been replied to at great
length, and numerous instances were very unnecessarily
given to show that the charge he was supposed to have made
was unfounded. Their Lordships would bear him witness,
that, as he had before stated, he expressly said he did not refer
to the French Government. Such a misrepresentation as this
showed that there was no safety in making any statement.
Sir M. S. Stewart and other Members of the House of
Commons, brought up the Leeds Gas Bill, which was read a
first time by their Lordships.—Adjourned.