The Sun.
London, England, 1832-05-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, 21/..4r 18.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
The Duke of Buccenucti and Lord ELDON preseniee
petitions from Dalkeith, and certain Protestants of Men-
ebeeter, against the new plan of Education in Ireland.
THE REFORM BILL.
The Earl of ROSEBERY presented a petition from
Haddinoton in favour of the Reform Bill. Similar eta
titions were presented from Burton•on-Trent and Wigton,
en the question of whether the Zemindar Nozeed Bill
„mount he postponed iii Thursday next.
The Archbishop of YORK •aid that it had been his
iiitention !sat night, as well known to several of thei
Lordships, to have made a b,i f statement to this
House of some eircurnitant es personal to himself
and connected with the proceedings on the Bill
of Relorm ; but which the vier:epee and excitement
which so unfortunately prevailed in that House—( Rear)._
the debate—if debate it cool.: be called—(Hear, hear)—
aaot followed the declaration of the Noble Duke, a
violence and excitement which in the course of forty
years, during trhieh he had hail the honour of a seat
in that House, he had never witnessed, and which, God for-
hie lhe >ie live to witness again, had deprived him of
the power to stidrese their Lordship when the conduit,
and motives of public men were so unsparingly assailed,
and so industriously and mischievously the subject of the
grossest falsehoods and misrepresentations.—(Cheers
Iron, the Opposition.) He feat that it might he necessary
for him to say a few words in explanation of the view
which he had taken of the question of Reform, and of
the course which it wan his intention to pursue—(Hear,
hear, 'asar)—iii the further proceedings upon it.
When the former Bill of Reform was before their Lord-
ships in the last seotion of Pediment, he was necessarily
',prevented from attending in his place in. the House
by the interference of various dioc.san duties which
be had to discharge in Yorkshire, at that particular
timsn ,inties which bail ever appeared to him paramount in
importance to any other duties which might attach to a
Bishop in his legislative capacity, where neither the interests
of relit ion, nor the rights and duties of the clergy, are the
immediate subjects under the consideratien of Parliament.
Had be been present at that period he should have given
'..is vote for the second reading of thi,t Bill, and simply on
!;.is principle, that it was a Bill which, applying directly
and especially to the constitution of the House of Com-
mons, had been sent up to their Lordships by a very
large majority of that House, which had the prepoude-
rence of public opinion and public feeling in its favour, and
the object of which was avowedly sanctioned by the Crown.
It?. said, then, that he should have voted for the second
reading of that Bill, on the plain principle that the provi-
sions of any Bill so introduced into that House, and so
advocated out of it, were entitled to the fullest considera-
tion of their Lordships.—( Hear, hear, hear.) On the
very mine ground ant on the very same reason he g ive his
vote for the second reading ..f the present Bill, with a
Min and sincere purpose of afterwards supporting in Com-
mittee its three essential principles of enfranchisement,
disfranchisement, and an extension of the suffrage. Not-
withstanding the order in which he had enumerated
theme principles, he was not the less prepared to
support to the fullest extent the principle of dis-
franchisement, but he bad ever considered that enfran-
chisement was the true and proper ground on which to
rest disfranchisement. It was his opinion that enfranchise-
ment should precede disfranchisement, and he had, conse-
quently, the other night supported the proposition of the
Noble Baron (Lyndhurst), not at all anticipating
•s Hear," from Lord Grey)—the eflect of the decision on
that point. For be was well assured that the Noble Earl,
end he alone, could conduct this difficult business.—
f Hear. ) Of the propriety of a very extensive enfranchise-
meut, the intercourse which for 24 years he had continually
kept up with the oreat manufacturing towns in the Wes
Ridiug of York, afforded him abundant proofs He re-
teriod principally to those of Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, and
Huddersfield. He had received (their Lordships would be
sorry to hear) a letter from the Lord Mayor of York, ac-
qti him that he had found it necessary to call
Kt the aid of the military to protect his (the Arch-
bishop's) house and property, at Bishopsthorpe,
from the assaults of a mob that had assembled evidently
for the purpose of destruction. Through the exertion*,
however, used, little mischief had been done. But yester
day morning military were stationed in his house and
stables.
The Duke of RUTLAND, after apologising for tres-
passing on their Lordship.' time, said that he would not
mow take the liberty of addressing them, if he did not
think that in the present posture of affairs, the individual
~pinions of every Peer ought to be, if possible, recorded,
and sent down to the latest posterity, for good or evil, on
the page of our country's history. He considered that
the crisis had arrived when the boasted stability of our
Constitution should rise superior to the influence of mis-
guided policy and popular violence. Much of the future
prosperity of the empire was identified with the circum-
stances of the present moment. He had attended most
anxiously to the declarations made by his Noble Friends,
the illustrious Duke and the Noble and Learned Baron
'sat night, and, after hearing them, his mind was deeply
impressed with two considerations—unmeasurable rati-
o...pie to the gracious Prince now upon the Throne, who,
to a moment of more trying difficulty than had perhaps,
evert et been experienced by sovereigns, had displayed a
hrinnesit and derision which proved him a worthy member
ei the illustrious race from which lie sprung.—(Cheers.)
There was wanting the utterance of one moriosyllahle, and
their Lordships' House had ceased to he a delibe,ative
_e-embly.—(Cheers.) He, therefore, begged to express
't.r, humble gr ititude to his Majesty, and to observe that st
events, let the consequences be what they might, the
evening of his Majesty's days would be cheered by the proud
recollection of having acted as be did.—(Loud cheers.)
ty the close_ of that illustrious Prince's life be like the
evening of a Mi Isummerolay, that glides away in plea-
santness and serenity. The next feeling he had enter-
tained was a storm of the greatest admiratien of the conduct
of the Noble Duke—(Clieers.) He could not hut feel time
greatest admiration when he reflected on that Noble Duke's
eonduct, and considered the obloquy to which be had been
exposed by an ungrateful country.—(Cheers.) If would
he the natural desire of the Noble Duke, after all the time
he sad devoted to the service of his country, to seek repose
at a calm fireside; but when he now saw his conduct,
under all the circumstances, he could not but feel the
utmost admiration.—(Cheers.) He would new state in
the face of their Lordships anti the country, what he had
often and often stated in private, that there was no man in
the kingdom whose (pinions, if he (the Duke of H.) had
not an opinion of his own, he would unhesitatingly engraft
upon his mind ; and, on the present cec:ision, the conduct
of the Noble Duke demanded his warmest praise—his
unlimited admiration. On the subject of the Bill itself, he
svialied to observe, that although he opposed it, he did not
mean to arrititn the motives of those who introduced it.
He would nut deny that their motives might be honourable,
pure, patriotic. It was not their motives, but their
measure he condemned. He could assure the House,
that, to a temperate and judicious measure of Re-
form he would not be opposed. He was opposed to
the first Reform Bill because its consequences, he con-
ceived, would be mainly to affect the great institutions
of the country—(Cheerot.) He had compared the pre-
sent Bill with the termer, he saw no material alteration in
it, which should induce him to give his support to the one
rather than to the other.—(Hear, bear.) He conceived
that, by an extensive giant of political power to classes
which hod never before enjoyed i , and by depriving others
of that power, who had enjoyed it far centuries, by the de-
structien of vested rights, and summoning of other rights
arbitrarily into existence, a fatal change would be made in
cur constitutional policy, and consequences would ensue,
the dread extent of which no human sagacity could fore-
see.—CCheers.) He was far from denying to the people
their just right of assembling together for the purpose of
expressing their honest opinions on any point connected
with the public good ; and, moreover, he firmly believed
there was not on the face of the ghbe a nation possessing
wire ,00ci sense and discrimination than tee British na-
tion ; bet 'Re doubted whether the assemblies to whieh he
aLnded were capable of discussing, in a temperate and use-
ful manner, those points to which they now addressed
themselves—at a time when popular excitement prevailed,
and when those classes were led astray by the Jima of de-
eigning people, who had far other objects from the oaten-
siole ones they set forth.—(Cheers.) lie believed, that
although the tone and temper in which the discussions were
carried on in these assemblies were highly reprehensible,
yet he considered that the same feverish agitation did not
now exist throughout the country as at the period when the
original neferm Rill was debated. Sure he was that the
country was then in such a state—he meant in October—
that tie greatest misery which could happen to the country
would have been the passing of such a measure. Certain was
he that the future historian of our land might accurately de-
scribe the state of public feeling in our country in words such
as those applied by a beautiful historian of. old to the state
of puttlic feeling in Rome at the close of the first Jugur-
than war. " Sed plebes, incretlibile memoratu est, quan.
turn int -nta fuerit, quantaque vi rogationem jusserit,
decreverit. voiuerit, magic edio nobilitatis cui main ills
poranatitur, quArn curs. reipublicte. Tanta libido in
',iambus erst."—lt was some consolation that the measure
was not passed at that period. Still he apprehended great
darnr?r from the discordant interests it would create, and
would be so difficult to reconcile, and which

L.e. feared would la: the foundation of interminebl
discontent. He was ashamed to detain their Lordships s
hing, when he knew it was his duty to economise their
rime as much as passible.--.(Hear, hear.) But before le
resumed his seat he was anxious to express the warmes;
abniration of the conduct of the House during its ardume
siFt;nga. He had even been proud that his lot had beet.
so cat in life as to have given him th, honour of sitting
among their Lordship. ; arid if such had been his opinim
luring his whole life, how much greater must it h.
now, wh• n hp had witnessed the conduct of thst
House, under circumstances of sub infinite ernbarass
Tient? It put him in mind of an anecdote in anciere
istnry. N-ble Duke then proceeded to say, that
l%then a tribune of the Roman people proposed a law
ric the division of lands taken from the Chnbri, the
passed the Commons by a large majority, and the
Senate were called upon to swear to its observance. All
consented except Meteilus, who refused. stating that " to
Jo wrong was always base ; to do right, when there was
no danger, was common ; but to do right, when it was
attended with danger, was deserving of al! honour."—
He knew that he was a.ltiressing a Senate, in which
tile character of Metellus was the leading feature. Their
Lordship, in dealing with that momentous question,
had kept the even t, hour of their way, unmoved upon
the one hand by fear of popular clamour, and unsedueed
on the other hand by the meed of popular applause.
The House hail not been seduced by that popular ap-
plause, which was at he,t but a fleeting possession. It
might spreed its gaudy pinions, and shed down its mere-
tricious light upon the tenants of the opposite benches;
but the majority of the House were well content to hold
their wry undazzled by its specious splendour.—(Hear.)
Their Lori:ships had shown in their conduct, ;hat they
have been guided only by twn con•iderations—the main-
tenance of our noble Constitution and the real interests of
the country.—(Cheers.) So always be that House dis-
posed, was Ids fervent prayer. In conclusion, he expressed
his strong hope that the expectations of those who had
introduced the Bill would be realised, anti that it wouhl, in
f.ct, promote the good of the country.—(The Noble Duke
was frequently, during his speech, inaudible at the bar.)
The Earl of HAREWOOD was anxious to ask a ques-
tion of the Noble Earl opposite, whether the negotiations
which were being conducted yesterday, had been brought
to a termination, and whether Ministers were to continue

in office.
Earl GREY—It has been always my desire, my Lords,
as far as pes-itile, to every proper qeeation, to furnish the
information that is required, and more especially when
those questions are put in that courteous manner by
which the question of the Noble Earl has b. en charac-
terized. My Lords, I certainly, if that question had not been
put, should have been prepared to state to your Lordships
this day the result, I will not say of " negotiations," I am
not aware that that word was fitly used, but of the
communication which since his Grace, the Duke of Wel-
lineton, gave tip the commission with which he was
intrusted to form a new Administration, has passed be-
tween his Majesty and toe. My Lords, I have now the
satisfaction of informing you that that communication has
been brought to this result, that in consequence of his
Majesty's desire of hiving the Reform Bill carried, and in
consequence of my seeing now those grounds of confident
expect ition—(loud and continued cheers)—which enable
me to consider that pledge that I gave yesterday
to the House of not continuing in the Administration
unless I had, what appeared to me, a sufficient se-
curity for passing the Reform Bill now on your
table, unimpaired in its principle and essential
provisions ;—in consequence, I say, of finding myself now
enabled to state that such is my confident expectation—
(Cheers)—and having received his Majesty's commands
graciously expressed to that effect, his Majesty's
present Ministers continue in their present office.
My Lords, I shall not advert to any thing on this oc-
casion unpleasant that has passed. I have felt, in common
with the `alight Rev. Prelate who has expressed himself
on this occasion, deep regret at much that has
been said ; hut I think I may with considerable
confidence throw myself on your Lordships to say whether
I personally have done any thing to rovoke it—(Cries
of Hear, hear)—nay, whether when exposed to a
series of personal attack., and such, as I believe,
have not been usual in this House, I have done
any thing not characterized by proper feeling if that
yeas necessary to vindicate my own character, and the si-
tuation I hn!d. To these occurrences, then, regretting
them deeply as I do, I shall not recur. I trust that the pro-
ceedings of this measure will be conducted with calmness.
I feel the necessity that it should be conducted with calm-
ness, to avoid furnishing any materials for an increase
of that irritation which unfortunately has attended
its progress.—(Hear.) I feel also the urgent necessity
of speedily passing this measure, in order that the
country may be restored to that quiet and content which
are necessary for its peace and prosperity.--(Loud cheers.)
To these objects my efforts shall be directed with the same
spirit and feeling which have characterized my conduct.
And I trust we may look forward to a speedy period when
this question shall he settled, when all these agitations shall
hare subsided, when there shall be increased contentment,
and with that, all those means of prosperity which this noun-
try has, shall be enjoyed, and for which there wants only po-
litical Reform, to bring to them full maturity.—(Cheers.)
My Lords, having stated this, as I believe there is no mo-
tion before the House, 1 now give notice that on Monday
next I shall move that this House resolve itself into a
Committee on the Reform Bill.—(Great applause.)
The Earl of HARE\VOOD haring heard the Noble
Lord's reply, should now take this opportunity
of stating what course he should think it pro-
per for him to adopt in the Committee. He had not
consulted with any Noble Lord. lie was connected
with no party. He stood there to think and act for him-
self, as he had ever done on all critical points.—
As the House had been told yesterday that the continuance
in office of Ministers dependdd on the power they might ob-
tain for carrying the Reform Bill, of course that was to be un-
derstood as a power to be obtained front the creation of
Peers, or from the individual pleasure of Noble Lords on
the Opposition side of the House withdrawing their future
opposition to it. Their Lordships bad been informed that
Ministers were now virtually in possession of that power ;
and this was the situation in which the House now stood.
If the exercise of the King's prerogative was to take
place, there would be an end to the independence
of the House of Lords—au end to the independence
if not to the existence of the Crown, and undoubtedly an
end to the liberty of the subject.—(Loud cheers on
the Opposition side.) The question for him (Earl of H.)
therefore to consider was, whether he was now to add his
mite, which was calculated to overturn for ever the
independence and power of the House of Lords. He had
opposed the second reading of the Bill, because he thought ir
too extensive. He had opposed it in the Committee on the
same principle, hut he would now withhold further opposi-
tion to the Bill for the express reason of preventing a greater
calamity were the opposition persisted in. Though he took
this line of conduct, it was to be understood that he

:ook it by sbrer compulsion ; and even in adopting

'his course, he thought that he might hid farewell to
the freedom of debate in the House of Lords, as be did
not apprehend he would ever again be able to utter
one indepedendent word there. Let those who had
been instrumental in bringing this affliction on the
country, be responsible fur their acts to the nation
when the nation came to its proper senses ; and he
really did not think that tire nation could be
restored to its proper senses while the Bill continued be-
fore the House. Under such circumstances he did not
intend to do any thins further to impede the pro-
ore-s of the measure.
The Earl of WINCH ILSEA—He could not give his
assent to a Bill which would overturn the balance of the
Constitution. He rose principally to call the attention of
the Noble Earl to the different malignant, false and treason-
able articles, which had appeared in the leading
j:;urnals during the list fur days, and particularly those
on the character of the Queen.
The LORD CHANCELLOR slid that it would

very ill become them, sitting as criminal judges, who
migtit be called upon to decide on the supposed
libels to which the Notde Earl referred, to decide upon
their prosecution.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA replied, that these cases

were not likely to come before their Lordships. He did not

Want any one to tell him what was treason.- He could not

give his assent to a Bill which would i)vertarn the bslance

ieween the three powers of the State. Ilia conduct in

that House had never been influenced by private party or
factious feelings, but be had to the best of this judgment done
th.it which would most promote the welfare of the country ;
hat if the independence of this House war to be de-

stroyed, it seemed of little consequence to him whether
it was by overawing them with threats, or by such
a creation of Peers as would make this House
a Picked Jury, as much a rotten borough as

of the oecayed places the Noble Earl was
n?ut to destroy. When the delusion which now
exited, and which had been encouraged by the most
pruifligate Press which had ever disgraced a free country,
Was dispelled, as it soon would be, the country would see
,:or, grossly it had been imposed upon by the pro-
!riders of this measure. He would now, however,
sluice the Noble Earl was at the head of the Govern-

address hint in bis private character as an E.,glisb
ci:,z-2u—a character which he (Lord Wincbilsea)
4,oped still to bepreui to bear. The Noble Earl, now

chat he was a Nlinistar of the Crown, WA! bound to stand

arward to protect tie Sovereign front the most malign to-
else, treacherous, and treasonable accusations which eve.
legraded a free country, and which had appeared ir.
,he leading Journals during the last three or four days.
Re had no doubt that the time of the Noble Earl ha,
wen too busily occupied during that petiod for him t.
sad the daily papers, either on one side or the other ; butt he
eall-d upon him to cast hi 3 eyes over those malignant, felse.
and unprincipled attacks which have been levelled ageing,
our gracious Queen, who for her many virtues was justly en-
titled to the respect of every friend of virtue.
.The LORD CHANCELLOR seid, that considerine
the feelings under which the Noble Earl addressed the
House, it was, perhaps, natural that he should forget tt e
peculiar functions of their Lordships in respect to the
subject matter referred to. He, as well as a Noble Lore
who spoke lent night, had called open the Government to
inatitute prosecutions for certain libels, or supposed libels,
which bad appeared in the daily Press. He cautiously
owed the word "supposed," for if that advice were complied
with, they might have to sit 33 criminal joulges op.'s the
very question of whether these publications were libels or
not? He considered it grossly contrary to their Lordships'
functions as Judges, previously to moot the question of
whether such supposed offences should he prosecuted or not.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE—He had himself suffered
so much, both in person and property, from the effects of
these libels, that he had a good right to say that it was
net a safe system to pass them over with impunity. With
regard to the twasure of Reform introduced by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, he declared that he wee absolutely asto-
nished at the advice given to create a sufficient number of
Peers to carry the measure. He thought that it could
only be intended as a threat to overawe the House. But
it was fitting that the matter should be brought to a point,
and in order to do so, be would take an opportunity of
submitting a motion to the House, having for its object to
prevent the creation of Peers; and then it would be seen
whether their Lordships would tolerate so execrable a pro-
ceedieg. He would state the particular nature of this
motion, and the time at which he would submit it to the
House, as soon as he should be satisfied that the present
Ministers were thoroughly settled in their places.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE—The Noble Eal behind him
(Harewood) had crated what course he intended to pursue in
regard to the present measure in its future stages ; hut
before he (Lord Wharncliffe) would stare what course he
meant to pursue, he thought it necessary that he should
have some further information from the Noble Earl as to the
exact position in which the House now stood. Were they to
have a new creation of Peers for the purpose of carrying this
measure, or were their deliberations upon this Bill to be car-
ried on under the threat of a creation of Peers? Or did
the Noble Earl mean by the expression, that he haul now
a reasonable prospect of carrying the Bill unmutilated.
refer to his Living authority to have a certain nurnluer of
Peers created for that purpose? He put that question be-
cause he was anxious to know in what situation the House
stood. He lid not mean to put that question in any dis-
courteous manner, but he was anxious to know if the
Noble Earl's hope of being able to carry the measure was
bounded on his power to create a sufficient number of Peers
for that purpose. He, therefore, asked the question, in
order to know what was the situation of the House before
he made any declaration as to the course be intended to

, I pursue.
The Earl of RADNOR—It was perfectly justifiable and
proper in the Noble Baron to ask for an explanation of
anything that was stated in the House, but, at the same
time, he protested against that mode of questioning a
Minister of the Crown, and a PrivyCouncillor, as to what
he had or had not power to do. He did not understand
on what ground it could be expected that a Minister should
answer such questions, when, in answering, he might
perhaps betray the counsels of his Sovereign, which he
was bound to keep secret. They had heard last night
explanations given of what passed between his Majesty and
his Privy Councillors, without any intimation that his
Majesty's permission to give such explanations had
been asked for and obtained. He had heard it
stated as a matter of deubt whether Privy Councillors
were justified in exposing what had passed confidentially
between themselves and his Majesty, even when they had
his Majesty's per mission to explain, since they were hound
by oath to keep his Majesty's counsel. But certainly he
had never heard that they were at liberty to explain with-
out having obtained his Majesty's. permission. But what
did the Noble Baron call upo❑ the Arable Earl at
the had of the Administration to say? And what w,s
the reason assigned by the Noble Baron for putting the
question ? Only to know on what footing he himself and
the House stood. Why, the Noble Baron stood exactly
on the same f.oting as they all stool, and it was for him to
exercise his own discretion and judgment as to what he
should do—(Hear, hear, on the Ministerial side)--and
that without having his opinions varied, or altered, or in-
fluenced by the consideration of whether new Peers were
to be created, or any thing else, there was no ground what-
ever for putting the question. The Noble Bit-on and
those who thought with him would act as they pleased.
Some or them said that they acted by compulsion. He
really did not know what that compulsion was—(Hear)—
or how their independence had been in the least infringed
upon. They said that their independence would be in-
fringed upon by the creation of Peers. By the letter, as
well as by the spirit of the Constitution, the King had the
right to create Peers whenever he, acting on the responsi-
bility of his Ministers, thought that the interests of the
country required it, and, if so, he would ask whether this
House had not always acted under the same compulsion as
it had acted under during the last twenty days?--(Hear,
hear, on the Minist.rial side.) If the creation of Peers
was a breach of the Law and the Constitution, it was a
breach that had existed for a very long period. Where
was the difference, in point of principle, between creating
seventy-two Peers for a particular purpose, and creating
several at once ?—(Hear, hear.) The Crown had equally
the power to create Peers in one way as the other, and
the Ministers were bound to advi-e his Majesty to create
Peers, if they thought that the interests of the country re-
quired that this should la? done. They acted on their re-
sponsibility, and if they did any thing wrong or improper
they were liable to be impeached in that House, where
their Lordship would sit as judges.—(Hear, hear, on the
Ministerial side).

Lord WHARNCLIFFE—That was, they were to be
ju,'ged by their own nominees.
Earl RADNOR—He did not know whit the Noble
Baron meant by nominees, or what right he had to call
any Noble Lords in that House, or that might be intro-
duced into that House nominees of the present Ministers,
any more than nominees of any other Nlinisrers. A No-
ble Lord had, on one occasion, talked of Noble Lords being
driven by Ministers as naves by the whip of the driver;
and now their Lordships were called nominees. Why,
then, when the Noble Baron's father was created a Peer
for some purpose, what was he but a Ministerial nominee?

—(Hear, on the Ministerial side.) No matter whether
one was created, or whether two or twenty-two were cre-
ated, the principle was the same. Suppose that some
great public measure sludild be obstructed by the obsti-
nacy of one Peer, and that the obstacle wan removed by
the creation of one Peer, the principle was the same a,
if the Crown had created twenty Peers. But then they
sometimes abandoned the ground of principle, and resorted
to that of swamping that House. He did not know what
they meant by " swamping." How could it be called
" swamping" the Home, when the Crown only exercised
its undoubted and ordinary prerogative? But the
real truth was, that the principle that they acted
upon was not the interests of the country, but the
preservation of themselves as an exclusive order. Their
consideration was not the interests of the country. Their
object was not, by preventing the creation of Peers, to
preserve their own independence ; for, after the creation
of new Peers, they would be as independent as before.
,B,outt
tte
ohpy wished
r-esery preserve their
ipreventndepethe
n den creationce_
bo u
t to preserve
new Peers,_
ther
own order as ex elusive and unchecked. Ministers were bound
not to act on that principle. On the contrary; it was their
duty to advise the Crown to create new Peers, provided
they thought the interests of the country required it. It
was not out of any regard to the interests of the country
that they objected to the creation of new Peers. It was
because they wished that their own exclusive order should
not be trended upon. This was the reason that made
them stand between the Crown and the country, upon the
great measure now depending in Parliament. He thought
that the great mass of the nation was right in the opinions
which they had formed on that great measure, and that
the confusion and obstruction of business which had pre-
vailed such a long time was entirely owing to the Noble
Lords who hail opposed its progress. It was the duty of
'Ministers to create new Peers if the measure could not be
in ied otherwise, and he hoped and trusted that Ministers
would do their duty, and he had no doubt but that the
best consequences would follow.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE—He supposed, that as the
Noble Earl had thus interposed, he was to have no other
answer from the Noble Earl at the head of the Adminis-

tration.
Earl GREY—He had already stated that he had tea-
he bad taken office, and to which he had pledged himself;
ronable hopes of being able to carry the object for which
and he did not think that the Noble Lord had a right to
expect that he would at present give any further answer.
(Lord WHARNCLIFFE—He mus, say that he really
thought this most extraordinary. He bad long known the
Noble Earl (Radnor), and he was astonished to hear biro
talk as he had dune. The NuE4 Earl said they looked not

the interettb of their country, but to the prem:rvationof

heir own exclusive order. But ready if their order was
tot to he preserved in its due integrity and independence,
'hen the House of Lords was of no use. Did the House of
Lords exist wholly for the interests of the individual,
vim composed it, or did it exist for the in'e.
,est of the whole community ? If it existed for
'he interest of the whole community then it ought to
he preserved—if it did not exist for the interest of tit,
eommunity, then the House of Lords was useless.
Wlo n they talked of the measure being revolutionary,
ould any thing in the way of revolutionary haranguing
go beyond the speech which the Noble Errl had
made on the present occasion ? The present question
was rot one which merely affected the House of Commons.
It was one which affected the Crown and the country—.
which affected every individual in that House, and the
whole Howie as a body. A Bill for amending the repre-
sentation had been brought into that House to he deli-
berated upon ; they differed about a question in the Com
inittee; the Ministers advised the King to make new
Peers, in (o der to carry the measure ; the King refused,
and the Ministers resigned in consequence of that refusal ;
but now they s rid that they still retained their office,,
having got fell powers to carry the meaure in their own
way. Now, atter thtt, could any one say that there was
not an end of the independence of that House? The
blow was struck ; the Government of the country was in
the House of Commons; and that House was no longer
free.--(Hear, hear, on the Opposition side.) Nor was the
Monarch free.--( Hear, hear.) He maintained that the
advice given to the Crown was a mere pretext for some
other purpose than to pass the Bill. There was no inten-
tion to get rid of the Bill, and the charge to that effect
against the Noble Lords who acted with him, was a calumny
for which there was not the least foundation. He fairly
confessed that he Lad fallen into a mistake when he agreed
to support the motion for taking the clauses out of the
order in which th y stood in the Bill. He thought it
was a newer of no importance to alter that order, and,
therefore, had agreed to the proposition of taking the en-
franchising clause first. Senie of their Lordships were
adverse to the principle of Re'orm altogether; but the
second reading of the Bill was carried, and then, when the
principle was admitted, the next step was to proceed
with the amendments. It was proposed to take the en-
fretnehisiog chuses first, and agreed to, that upon the un-
derstanding that the main clauses of the Bill were to be
preserved, and that the principle of the Bill was not to be
touched. But the Ministers objected to this, and being
defeated, they resorted to the expedient of advising the
Crown to create Peers. He denied that there was any
int, Orion to touch the principle of the Bill, and Cbe Mi-
nisters themselves afforded him an argument to show that
they did not consider it a mat er of any moment, since
one of themselves had admitted in the other House that it
was a matter of no consequence. In the House of Corn-
morn the matter had been treated in a d,fferent spirit.
But he bad only to say, in conclusion, that he certeioly
would not decide upon what line of conduct lie should ful
low until he should have ascertained on a hat footing the
House stood. He must first know in what position the
House stood, and then he would act accordinely.
The Earl of CARNARVON wished to put a question
to the Noble Earl. in order that lie might know not only
what his (Lord Carnarvon's) situation was, but what the
situation of the House was. At the same time he did not
wish for any information that in his opinion ought not to
be given. He felt, however, that he had a right to ask
the Noble Earl whether they were to be permitted to go
into the Committee on the Bill, for the purpose of exer-
cising the privilege never before questioned, of correcting
the sfetails of the measure, so es if possible to render it
more uninjurious and palatahle. He was the more desi-
rous to know this, because, by what the Noble Lords op.
posite termed conciliation, they meant passive obe&ence.
Such language, indeed, as that used by the Noble Lords,
professing Whig principles too as they did, had never be-
fore been heard from Ministers of th • Crown. Never be-
fore had it been intimated, in order to influence the deci
sion of their Lerdships on the details of any measure in
a Committee, that the King would be required by an
extraordinary act of authority to insure their concur-
rence. If such a doctrine had been held in other
times, buoy loud would have been the storm of indig-
nation which it would have raised ! What was the
fact ? That a Minister of the Crown existed in that situa
tion by destroying the Constitution, which it wat his daty
to protect. If, instead of the feeble voice which now ad
dressed their Lordships, that of a Grenville could he heard
in that House, the Noble E irl would have shrunk from
the castigation he wounl have received, and their Lordships
and the country would have been spared the infliction
which they were now doomed to endure. He wished to
ask the Noble Earl if it was the intention of his :Majesty's
Government to allow the Bill to go through the Com-
mittee in a spirit of fairness and candour? All that was
required by his side of the House was, that any Amend-
ments which they might think it their duty to suggest,
should he considered with temper and impartiality. He
also wished to know from the Noble Earl (and to that
question, after what be had already stated, the Noble
Earl could feel no difficulty in answering) if the Noble
Earl meant to propose to his Majesty- to interfere with
such a creation of Peers as would deprive the House
of Lords of the power of coming to any piactical
resolution in which his Majesty's Ministers did not
perfectly concur? As on the one hand, these who thought
with him on the subject, would not submit to dictation,
although it might wear the garb of courtesy; so on the
other hand, they did not wish to go into the Committee
with a view of mutilating the Bill, or thwarting the in•
tention of its authors; but were honestly desirous of en•
deavouring to improve it. He wished to know what it
was the Noble Earl's intention to do with the Bill in
the Committee ? And he also wished that before !lion-
(ley, their Lordships should know whether they were to
meet without the previous exercise of the Royal prero-
gative. which his Majesty had been recommended to en-
lace? He again promised in his own name, and in that
of his Noble Friends, to meet the hropositions of the
Noble Earl with every spirit of conciliation; and lie hoped
the feeling would he reciprocal. Before he said any more,
he would await the Noble Earl's answer. If he did not
condescend to make one, their Lordship would perhaps
allow him to add a few words.
Earl GREY observed, that the conduct of the Noble
Earl throughout all the discussione upon this question had
been so calm and conciliating, that nothing like an exhibi-
t:on of violence or temper could be expected from him in
the further proceedings.—(A laugh.) The Noble Earl
had first asked him it the Bill was to be considered in the
Committee in a spirit of fairness and candour. He (Lord
Grey) might put the same question to the Noble Earl with
great propriety. The answer to it would depend Match
more upon the spirit that might be manifested by the
Noble Earl and his friends. For himself, nothing could be
further from his wish and intention than to go into the
Committee in any other spirit than that of good temper
and impartiality. As to the other question, it was a ques.
tion which, be repeated, no one was entitled to put to him,
and he must therefore decline giving it an answer.
The Earl of CARNARVON resumed—Adverting to
the observation with which the Noble Earl had cam-

meneed his answer, he remarked, that after having held

out a menace such as no Minister had ever before ven-
tured to hold out to the House of Peers, the Noble Op-
pressor was pleased to smile at the pangs of the injured.
He denied that he had exhibited the violence which the

Noble Earl attributed to him. Before they had met in

that House, the Noble Earl had had opportunities of
knowing his conduct. On one occasion in particular the
Noble Earl and himself had been engaged for six weeks in
4 personal inquiry ; and be would appeal to the Noble
Earl if, on that occasion, he had exhibited any violence
or want of temper. The Noble Earl alleged that the
proceedings in the Committee on the Bill would depend
on the spirit manifested by him (Lord Carnarvon) and his
friends ; and had spoken of the good temper and con-
ciliation which he was himself prepared to exhibit,
In firm, the Noble Earl wight manifest good
temper and conciliation ; but what was the substance ?
That the Noble Earl had never submitted to a single
amendment or alteration in the detail of the Bill. To
lt:s question whether, when in the Committee, they should
he subject to -ee their independence a,: once annihilated,
the Noble Earl had not condescended to answer. He
would tell the Noble Earl that he (Lord Carnarvon)
would never sit in that House with the Noble Earl's fifty
et- sixty liveried laequeys.
honour.(Hear
, hearA.)rid
were where wer
persons were
the -last words he should utter there, they were the ex-
piring la
of Englisho
be found ? He bad not yet heard that the
hadgone round to offer a reward for volunteers.
poa si ble that so many individuals, terming them..
selves gentlemen, could condescend to be so made use of?
Fur his own part, while lie rem tined in the House he
would do what he considered his duty with reference to
the Bill; for it was a matter of perfect indifference to
hint, if the House perished, whether it was to be by sui-
cide, or by an act of the coolest assassination. One favour
he would ask the Noble Earl, that in justice to him and his
friends, before he overpowered their Lordships with the me-
oAceil inundation he would bring in a Bill to rescue them from
the degradation of the association ; and by a clause in that
Bill restore him (Lord Carnarvon) to the rank of an
English Commoner, of which he should be the more proud,
might then; perhaps, be enabled to exercise the pri-
v.leges of a legislator. He hoped the Noble Earl would
grant this request, which he made in perfect seriousness.
Ur this be was sure, that it would not be long before the
country would be roused from the state of intoxication and

;badness into w..i011 it haci been betrayed ; an] it-utild 1,41.
to distinguish its real from its pretended friends.

The liirhop of BRISTOL was of opinion (as we wader_
rood his Lordship), that the proposed exercise of the Roy,
Prerogative would he most unconstitutional. He hop,
Noble Lords would not withdraw during the discussions or.
the Bill, but would attend and do their ditty. He wa,
convinced that there war a strong feeling growing in th,
country against the Bill—and he had that day teceivol
letter from Bristol, in which it was stated that a hrgt
portion of the respectable inhabitants of th tt place wet:
inimical to the Bill.

1-1
-re the conversation dropped ; and their Lord,hirs
Adjourned to Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Al4l 18.

Owing to a call of the House, the gallery was not opened
until Half-past Five o'clock, and upon our admission, n'
found that a question was before the House relative (ae att
understood) to the non-attendance of some of the Members.
On the question being put,
Mr. HUME said that he would he sorry to put
Hon. Metnbers to any inconvenience beyond what
was necessary ; but he should be obliged to
enforce the inotion, unless something was then stated
that would render it unnecessary. He would therefore
ask the Noble Lord (Althorp.) whether any arrange-
ments had yet been made, for the purpose of
satisfying the country respecting the Reform Bill,
Lord ALTHORP then rose, and the hue and noise atten-
dant on a very crowded House instantly subsided into a
deathlike silence. Ha said—l rise, Sir, to give the house a
statement in accordance with the wish of the Hon. Member.
I beg to state that since I teas last in this House his Majesty's
Ministers have received such security for the passing of
the Retorm Bill as appears to them most satisfactory—
(lmmense cheers)—and that therefore we shall continue
to hold our offices as hitherto.—(Lond and long cheering.)
Lord MILTON—Under the circumstances, and from
the statements which the House has just heard, I beg
leave to state, fur the information of many to whom
my intentions were not communicated, that after the
assurance we have just heard, it is no longer toy intention
to submit to the House the address which I had intended
to move.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Mr. HUME moved that the order of the day for the
call of the House he di-charged.
Sir ROBERT PEEL rose amidst loud and deafening
cheers. Tne Hon. Baronet observed, that he was not aware
of the intention of the Noble Lord to make any intima-
tion io the House of the nature he had just done; but as a
man deeply interested in the prosperity of the country,
and anxiously and ardently wishing for the terminatian
of the present state of affairs, had the Noble Lord not
made the announcement he had done, he should have felt
it his duty to have called upon him for sonic explanation
on the subject, and he should have entreated the Noble
Lord, not without notice, net without giving au
opportunity for mature deliberation, to put the
House in possession of how Ministers stood with
his Majesty. He had, however, been precluded
from performing that duty by the communication
which the Nobte Lord had just traute.—(Lou•l cheers.)
He trusted, however, that the House would permit him, as
the crisis was peculiar, to make a few explanations as to
himself, and that the House would not grudge him a
few minutes while he stated the grounds on which
he had formed the decision lie had come to. On Wednes-
day last a communication was made to him by a Noble
Friend of his, for whom, notwithstanding all the calum
flint's assertions that had gone forth—(Tremendous cheers)
—he was proud to avow the sincerest admiration
for his talents and esteem fur his character,
(he meant Lord Lyndhurst) who informed him,
not that he had had a communication from his Majesty
to form a new Administration, but that his Majesty had
selected bina front having filled the office of Lord Chancellor,
and as being a judicial character, for the purpose
of conferring with hint on the state of the country. That
Noble Lord had inquired of him whether he considered
it to be in his power to enter into the service of the King
at the present moment, stating, at the same time, that the
King, by the resignation of his late Ministers, had been
deprived of carrying his declaration into effect with re-
spect to the Reform Bill. He must admit that it cer-
tainly was then notified to him, and he was hound
in honour to state it, that the only other person
with whom any conference bad been had was his Grace
the Duke of Wellington, and that that Noble Personage
had determined to assist his Majesty, wishing for
no office, but who would have accepted office if cir-
cumstance. required it, or, if not, he was willing to assist
the King with his services, without taking any office.
Although no communication of that sort was ever made to
him (Sir Robert), yet as he saw no advantage in reserve
at that moment, he must state that he certainly did
understand from the question that was put to him, that
the tendency of the inquiry of Lord Lyndhurst was, whe-
ther he was willing to accept the office, which, in po-
litical life, was supposed to be the highest in the State.
(Cheers.) It certainly was riot notified to him, and he was
bound in justice to the King to confine the declarations
which had been made by his Noble Friend, that the accept-
ance of office must be upon the clear understanding that
his Majesty's declarations with respect to Retbrin should be
fulfilled—(Loud cheering on the Ministerial B'nches)—
that the acceptance of that offiee must be upon the condi-
tion of his introducing an extensive measure of Re-
.

fortn.—(Cheers.) His reply to Lord Lyndhurst, he
admitted, was made on the impulse of the
moment, but it was done under those impulses
of feeling which it was utterly impossible for him
to control, and for which he busted the House would
give him credit. His reply to Lord Lyndhurst was,
that it was utterly impossible for him to accept
office on the condition of proposing such a measure of
Reform—that, from the course he (Sir Robert) had
hitherto adopted with respect to the Reform Bill, it was
utterly impossible for him to accept office, understand-
ing, as he did, that the phrase " extensive Reform,"
meant the adoption of the leading provisions of the
Bill as it now stood. He had always considered
the Bill fraught with injustice, both in its prin-
ciple and in its details, and he had before expressed
his determination to oppose it to the last. How
therefore, he would ask the House, could he, with justice
to himself or to his Majesty, have accepted the office of a
mediator, when he was the very person, from his
own peculiar feelings upon the subject, who would he most
li*ely to put an end to all mediation ?—(Mt.ch cheering.)
The ground, therefore, on which he vindicated the
course he had taken, was the peculiar situation in which be
stood. Ha did not call in question the motives of
others; he held those motives in the highest respect.
He had no doubt they had acted from the most disinte-

frreosmteda
.7notseiv,e but
)fs,
thensituitatinias fromoninwh n
which he
hseestsoe of h
stood,
and from
the peculiar situation in which be was placed, he had
thought it his duty to give a direct refusal to take office.
Upon the Catholic Question he hid given advice to his
Majesty, but upon the present question, had he token
offic,, he must have introduced into that House a measure
against which he had recorded his opinions strongly.
He could not have done ,o without lowering himself in the
esteem both of himself and his friends. He felt that it
wuu:d not be for the public advantage, nor for the cha-
racter of public men, had he accepted office upon such
terms.--,Cheers.) Though the English Bill was out of
that House, and in the other (louse of Parliament, the
Scotch and Irish Bills still remained for closideration in
that House, and it must have fallen to him, as part of his
duty, to have taken them under his charge. His objection
to the Irisii Bill was so strong that he never could h ive
done so ; his reason would have entirely precluded
that : it was perfectly impossible for him to accept office,
in order to early that Bill. He had refined office at the
expense of a temporary separation iro:n that min in the
country+ who, though he had taken a different couree on
this question, he most admired—he meant the Duke of
bluisiertko.ffio.nrgm
esuspicion
ethat a
ta4ney
to G over
stand,ri
venh inflment
uenced
set euhonpl ccoeGintul
oltbdvh
eenr onraiumv
r
Wellington. It had been announced that he had been
itHeheca}iniisgidlit.trelstepthiant athnids seize the
required
no denial at his hand ; but if there was one man in that
House who wished for explanation, he could soon satisfy
him that there was no earthly foundation for such a charge.
The declaration of the Duke (of Wellington) in the House
of Lords, last night, that there had been a temporary
cessation of political friendship between them, was enough
to convince the House that there could be no ambitious
wish of his, but what could have been gratitie 1.--( Hear.)
Lou' ALTHORP, for one, had never imputed improper
or unworthy motives to the Hon. Baronet, and he be-
lieved that no one in that House gave co etlence to the re-
ports to which the Hun. Baronet had alluded.
Mr. BARING rose to speak, but the noise occasioned by
Members leaving the House was so great that his first sen-
tences were lost. He felt satisfaction in hearing the explana-
tion given by the Noble Lord opposite, not only for
the sake of the country, but also for the share which he
had had in the transactions of the few last days. Li the
few words he was about to offer, he woold cautious'y ab-
stain from making one allusion which would provoke one
word of further observation upon that explanation ; hut
he felt that if he sat still atter the explanation offered by
hi Hon. Friend (Sir It. Peel), be would be liable to have
some of the attacks which were now so plentifully thrown
about, stuck upon him. He could answer for the truth
of the statement made by his Hon. Friend as to the mo-
tives which had actuated him in the transactions of the

'set few days, he having expressed them in almost the
:eine worsis to him when he applied to him to take office.
Supposing the Kiug was to admit it was his duty to take
such toes-urea as troohi insure the pissing of the Bill, was
rhat a reason why a Minister should avail himself
if the occasi•in to force Other cireutnstances upon his
llajesty, to which, as a Monarch of this country, he could
ever submit ? His Majesty would say, because I con-
sider Celt this Bill :should be passed, shall I therefore
•übmit to a circumstance which I conscientiously cannot
think ought to have been allowed ?—(Cheers.) Such had
Steen case, and it was in such a case the Duke of
Wellinet in was called on by hi; Majesty. Could
diet Noble Duke, then, fleeing his King in such
eircunastences, say to kin, No, I have taken such steps
upon this measure, which you say must pass—l stand in
such a position upon this question, having protested against
it, that I eau render you no iseistance. He (Mr. I 3 ) nos
convinced that no man in the country would believe that
ee, in the m inner in which he had acted, had taken
other than a straight forward view of the subject
under the eircometauces. When the Duke applied
to biin (Mr Bari(ig) the first words th it he said
to him were, that he felt all the difficulties of the case,
but he would be ashamed to crawl about the metro-
polis, if lie had not gone immediately to the King and
rendered him ,all the assistance that was in his power.
It teas not his (Mr. Baring's) wish to go further into ea-
pl median upon this topic, but he might be excused forjust
glancing at the miserable efforts of seine who must he base
minded, who had imputed to the Duke of Wellington an
Mordinate desire of place. He believed he need not repel
such an insinuetinte for no man who knew the character
of his Grace, could believe him to be actuated in that man-
ner. He would say that, if ever there was a case for ad-
miration, his was nice ; and fir himself he must declare
that crest as his admiration of the Noble Duke's character
was, he had never witnessed a greater proof of his magna-
nimity, than in the resolution to which he had come. lie
well knew that the Noble Duke might, and would he bath
abused and vilified, nevertheless he was not afraid ; with
all who would tske the trouble to examine the matter with-
out prejedice, as to the position in which his Grace stood,
they would, one and all, declare the act to be an act of
beroisne—(Vehement cheering from the Opposition.)
Supposing the state of the case to have been as he had put
it ; the King applied to Lord Lyndhurst, and Lord Lynd-
hurst to the Duke of Welhne ton, and what he had asserted
followed. There was no wish on the part of his Majesty,
as he had previously stated, Si get out of the promise for a
of the Commons' Howe of Parliament ; on the
contrary, he was anxious to have that measure carried, but
then his Majesty was i'esirous that it should be carried
wi,hout destroying the House of Peers.—(Hear, and a
laugh,) Probably Hon. Gentlemen opposite might think
a lane creation of Peers an improvement to the House of
Lords, hut he could only declare that such was not his opie
nion Would the King have been in a better position if
the Duke of Wellington had refused to go to his aid? It
was not a very enviable situation of things to have the
Crown adverse to the Administration. After some fur.
Cher observations, which were indistinctly heard in the
gillerv, the flenourable Member concluded with stating,
that the conduct of the Duke of Wellington was highly
meritorious.
Sir RICHARD VYVYAN said he had always under-
wood that the King of England was not a responsible
person, but that his Minis era were. He must protest
against the doctine that b ul bren broached, insinuating re-
sponsihility to the Monarch.—(Hear.) He was one of
those who entirely approved of the line pursued by the
Duke of Wellington; it was the duty of the Noble Duke,
when called upon by his Majesty, to form an Administra-
tion if possible. It was impossible that the present Mi-
nisters could he justified upon constitutional grounds in
the course they had taken, and posterity would pronounce
a sentence of condemnation upon them for their efforts to
destroy the House of Peers. lie fully appreciated the
benourehle motives which had influenced the Right Hon.
B hear,) and although he might from one
party expect obloquy being cast upon him, from another
he might anticipate hatred, and from a third, misunder-
etandine, yet he would stand, not only acquitted of all
blame, but would receive the need to which he was justly
entitled. The King of Enelend, as he had before stated,
could no wrong ; his Ministers were alone responsible.
The Knits was bound by no letter written by that Mini-
his
et emr
potre
dh
hs
te cwr
he time
hry.h-0
((sHi
reaßr,. five;
vr .y)a n e)
had orsh
hs
t taotn-
in saying was an act of treason—(Heer, hear,)—for hav-
ing attempted that which, in another reign, formed a sub-
ject of impeachment. The act of Ministers in that reign,
to which he had made allusion, was of a minor description
compired with the attempt of the present Ministers. The
latter hail, with one blow, recommended the overpower-
ing of one of the branches of the Legislature, merely be-
cause a particular clause in a B:;I had been postponed,
contrary to the wishes of the Administration. He was
quite certain that when these extraordinary transactions
were fully developed and calmly reasoned upon, the con-
duct of the King to preserve the House of Peers would be
highly esteemed. He (Sir R. Vyvyan) had no apprehen-
shins as to the results of a general election, had such a
course been recommended, and he believed that if an elec-
tion had taken place, and the question raised in the
country es the determination of the King not to create
Peers, his name would have been found as potent as it was
last year.—( Heir.)

Captain GORDON said that the machinery of the Ad-
ministration had derclosed some latent movements which
were before unknown. Upon these the country would
now have an opportunity of firming a judgment. He
could not hut complain of the speeches made in that House
by the Hen. Members fur Middlesex, Kerry, Calne, and
Northumberland. Had the House forgotten the language
used by those Hun. Gentlemen, in which their sentiments
were couched ?—(Hear.) Had the House forgotten the
spirit in which these sentiments had been uttered ?
(Hear.) It was not for him to say what the motives of
these Hon. Gentlemen might be. Their motives could
only be known "to the Searcher of all hearts." But be
would ask what was the effect of those speeches, conveying
the sentiments to which he had adverted ? He could put
no other construction upon the language than that of
showing the petiole that the House of Commons was itself
the head of all Rehirm.—(Hear.) But he would now,
with permission of the House, refer to what had transpired
nit of doors (and quote the language attributed to the
Hon. Member for Middlesex, by means of the newspapers,
for he had no other authority), at a meeting recently
held in one of the metropolitan districts. If Members
of that House set such an example to the people, it was no
surprise to find the people imitating it. The language of
Parliament would nut &low him (Captain Gordon) to
designate what he thought of such sentiments so expressed.
Tne Hon. Mtenlier for Middlesex asked at the meeting,
after alluding to the introduction of troops in the me-
tropolis, " whether the people of this country would
' suffer themselves to be deprived of their freedom and
hrinded as slaves ?"—( Hear, heir.) This was the lan-
guage of an incendiary.—(Hear, hear.) Then the Hon.
Ceentleman went on to ask the people, " whether they would
bend their neck s to the yoke which was appirendy pre-
pared for them ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hoe. Member for
Middlesex toed the people that 150 person. were opposed
to the people, whom he described as being a miserable
faction. This was language which could not be misun-
derstood. Then the conduct towards an Illustrious Per-
sonage of the other sex, on the part of the meeting, was
odious. They gave " three groans for the Queen."
Surely this was a course of proceeding which no man,
having the feelings of a to in and a Christian, would be
envious of partaking in. Was this the way taken to sup
port his Mejesty's Government? But if Members of that
House used such language at the meetings which had taken
piece, it was no surprise to find the people acting sa
shamefully. Tee Hon. and Learned Gentleman, whom
Fe did not then see in his place, bad given some advice to
a meeting which he bad attended. Fle heti told them how
they might assist the Ministry. It was painful to him
(Captain Gordon) to take this course, but he felt it his
duty. The language used at the meetings in the country
was such as no man would approve of. It was the lan- •
gunge of the incendiary and the demagogue, and when
the character and agency of this power were taken into
cons &ratios:), it would he found one day too strong for
its master; the brick-bet and the missile would teach ere
long a practical lesson to that effect.—(lleer.)
Mr. HUME thought that the Hon. Member had
•liown a considerable degree of irritation throughout his
speech, which warped his judgment. The complaint of
the Hon. Gentleman resolved itselteinto two parts—lan-
e uttee spoken in that House, and language uttered
tie- certain Members out of doers. The Honourable
.11.mber ought at once to have taken down the
vords which he (Mr. Hume) had uttered if he concluded
them of that higly ol;ectionable nature. He would, how-
ever, say that he had never uttered in that House nor out
of it sentiments which he shrunk from; and he would
challenge any Hon. Member to state, if he could, any sen-
iment that he had made use of in the course of the de•
ten upon this matter, which was unconstitutional.—.
, Hear.) Toese sentiments might not be palatable te. the •
Flop. Gentleman, but he would maintain that they were
eerfectly constitutions!. and such; as had been again and
apill echoed in that House. He threw back.witleintlige. •
tation the insinuations of the Hon. Member. Any senti-
ment that lie had uttered within the last ten days he was
ready to defend, for he had not spoken in anger but pre-
neditatediy. The Hon. Member had asked what was the
haracter of
.those meetings ? He would tell him that

heir character was that of peace, order, and unanin►its
He had certainly sta.ed Ow. it might ka a proper cours
for that House to pm sue to stop the anapli a, but was tho
being revolutionary ?—(H ar.) He would maintain Or
it was c mstituronal, and however he might reeret th
necessity for such course, }et circumstances might happ.•:
Which would render it proper.—(Fleur.) If the Hap
Member had looked to the meetings held at Newest!
and other places, he would find that stronz• r languag,
still was used than any that fell from him. The Honour
able Member hail talked of dens :gogues and incendiaries
but who, he would ask, were the incendiaries? Thos
Who drove the people to ntadzesa by their obstinacy, of
those who sought to remove the cause of the irritatio,
Which existed in the public mind?--(Cheers.) He (Mr.:
Rome) would retort on the lion. Meo;ber, and those wio
adopted the same line of conduct that he pursued, the tern
incendiaries. For his own part, he gloried in the la..
meetings, for be gloried in seeing the country united it.
sentiment upon this question, and calling upon their Re,
Presentatives, if such an Administration as was threatened
should be inflicted on the country, to stop the supplies.—
(Hear, hear.) The people had carried their object- by the
power of moral force; and if any one thing could Is-
more ungrateful than another to the feelings of the Hon.
Member, and of the other opponents of Reform, it must
be the bitter disappointment at finding that the peopl,
were not to be goaded into riot and outrage. The peo-
ple, however, would use only their reason and their judg•
aunt, and had shown that they were worthy of their rights,
and the means they had taken to obtain them.—( Hear.
hear.) With respect to what had been said about the ex-
pressions he had used at the meeting, he would just say
that he had been informed, while at the meeting, that troo,.s
Were coming towards the metropolis, and, coupling the.
with the supposed fact that the Duke of Wellington was
Minister, it was not very surprising that he should
have inferred as he did, and that he should have said that
the people of England would never submit to be slaves,
which they would be in all respects if they sub pitted to a
military Government.--(Hear, hear.) He would always
act upon the sentiments which he then professed, and lie
hoped that he should live and die a free man. He had also
alluded to the consequences to Europe of the change in the
Administration, and he believed he had good reason to
congratulate all Europe upon the turn which events had
Just taken—(hear, hear)—for Europe was looking to
England, and if the latter submitted to a military Go.
Yernment, the hopes of freedom in France, Belgium, and
other countries, would be materially depressed. He had
reason, therefore, to congratulate the whole civilized worl I
that the yoke which threatened them had been thrown tilt
England for the last century had been under the dominion
of a monopolizing oligarchy, and it now appeared that
though the King was anxious to comply with the wishes
of the people, yet be was dictated to by people who looked
only to their own advent ige. The Hon. Member might
think as he pleased about the Reform Bill, but the conces-
sion of it would cause the King to live in the hearts of his
!uhj'cts, and he trusted the latter would soon have the
happiness of seeing it become the law of the land. —(Cheers. )

Mr. G. BANKES said that the Hon. Member might
talk about slavery as he pleased, hut he would tell him
there was no shivery more base than that which truckled
to motility.—(Hear, from the Opposition.) There was
c'ne part of the charge of the Hon. Member for Dundalk
which the Hon. Member for Middlesex shrunk from answer-
tk•--( Hear.) He meant that part which alluded to the
'll'n• Member's attack upon an Illustrious Female.—
iftr Majesty had reaped the benefit of his attack ; for she
144(1 that very day, while riding in her carriage, been
grossly insulted by an infuriates mob.—(Much cheering
fr°lll the Opposition.) The lion. Member said that the
6PPonents of Reiorrn were disappointed because the
People had not broken out into outrage and violence. If,
indeed, they could he gratified by the occurrence of such
outrages, they had ample reason to be gratified by coupline
the ourages that day with the insult to a Rev. Prelate a
few days back.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member far Mid-
dlesex was not alone to blame for this, for it would be in
the recollection of the House that on the very same night
an Hon. Member on the Ministerial nide of the Heusi.,
had, by name, insulted two Princes of the Royal family ;
and the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Westminster, had
similarly insulted e Judge of the land, to whom was in-
trusted, by his Majesty, a most important mission. The
Hon. Member (Mr. Batik es) then proceeded to contend
that there was no similarity whatever between the
resignation of the present Ministers and that of the Mi-
nistry of the Duke of Wellington. When he also heard
the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, speak
°I some dreartful disclosures which it was in his power to
*take, as to changes of opinion upon important topics, he
thought that the Noble Lord might indeed tell of some
qtraordinary changes connected with the counselling of
tech measures as had been adopted by tl.e present Mi.
tii'oty. With respect to what had been said by the Hon
Member for Middlesex, :is to the reported movement of
11:t'oes, he believed that no such movement took place at
4'l, but, if it did, it was clear it could not have been com•
tended by the Duke of Wellington.
Lord ALTHORP said that, in the few words which he
ned to say, be should not imitate the tone and temper of
the Hon. Member; hut he was compelled to say a few
words, in reply to what he conceived to be an attack on
the Government. The Hon. Member had, most cer-
tainly, a right to make that attack if he chose ; but, in
reply, he would say that whenever the advice which the
Ministry thought it right to give to their Sovereign was
properly called in question, th. y would be prepared to de-
feat 1 it ; but the present was not the time. With respect
to the resignation of Ministers, he confessed that he could
not understand the constitutional doctrine laid down by
the Hon. Member, that such resignation amounted to a
threat to the King.—(Hear.) He thought it ina•
possible for him to avoid making these few observations
ape's what had been said, but -he should go no further
into the discussion upon that occmsion.—(Heir, hear.)
NEWSPAPER PRESS.
Lord STORMONT gave notice that it was his inten-
fion, on Monday next, to bring forward a motion, with a
view to cell on his Majesty's. Attorney-General to state
what steps he bad taken to prosecute, or what course he
meant to pursue, relative to the libellous and treasonable
articles which had appeared in the papers during the last
r.ew days. He wished to learn whether it was the inten-
tion of the Government to allow such treasonable matter
against his Majesty, and also against her Majesty—a de-
fenceless woman—to go unpunished, while the Law Offi-
cers of the Crown sat idly with their hands before them,
or whether actions bad beon commenced against the au-
thors of such wicked, libellous, and treasonable produc-
iPms•—(Hear, hear, front the Opposition.)
Mr, G. LAMBF. said, that there had been no move.
stem of troops, such as had been spoken of by the Hon.
Member for Middlesex ; and even if there hid been, no
unsure could be imputed to the Duke of Wellington, for,
Wader the circumstances, lie could have had nothing to do
With it. With respect to the notice given by the Noble
Lord relative to the articles in the newspapers, he would
lay that, under the e,rcionetances, Ministers did not feel
themselves in a situation to think of commencing prosecu-
tlo,3 which, if necessary at all, they thought would be
rtt,tc're Properly left to their successors, whoever they might
tie--(Rear, hear.) He did not know what publications
'e Noble Lord alluded to, but it was a que•tion whether
they would not give more weight in the public mind to
ote
tharticles by conitnencing prosecutions, than by treat-
thg ; ern with indifference. He trusted that, now that
ee People would be satisfied in their wishes, there would
° _lllor necessity for any such interference.
5 . A TRP
OR complained of the manner in which
the Hon. Member for :Middlesex had held up to obloquy
the first persenege in thel realm and the first sex in the
reuntr
Y.—(A laugh,L
) He cared not for the sneers of
on. Members, but nothing could be more blameable than
thus holdin
to public odium the first of her sex.
"4 did not ▪ ministeil believe that there was any instance in history
'airing resigned merely because the Gown did
lot n
tettnetitm a creatiou of 60 Peers for a political object.
• ti.e._veer could hear, without time utmost indignation, such
f_ nut as those that were uttered by the Hon. Member
Middl-aex.
HUME—I admit them all.
tD
Mr. TREVOR said he blushed to see the day when such
avowal was made by a Member of the British House of
L:°tx"nens. For his own part he woeld sooner be torn
,:amb from limb by a London rabble than degrade himself
l'lnterine such unmanly sentiments.
Mr. SHAW said that the country owed a deep debt
'f gratitude to the Duke of Wellington for the course
te had pursued. Was there any being who could pos-
ablyt'uOPose• that the Noble Duke would accept office
personal. motives ? He contended that the question
''Reform sunk into utter innificance compared with
11,tit which presented itself to the mind of the Duke
't Wellington. That question was whether the two
'states of the !calm should he overturned and de-
-I,.Need by the clamour of this House. It was a ques-
t: whether a deluge was to sake place which should
Ivitn ,el, away all the institutions of the couutry, together
14the throne of the Sovereign.—(Cheers from the
Position side.) He deeply deplored that persons were
4,1 who degraded their high station by ministering to
re very worst passions of the multitude. Within the
:144,1aw days a Noble Lord residing near Liverpool held
V., King as a des-rter from the cause of the people.
re °l'ktalv declared that he would much rather prefer a
e
the di in name and effect, to one in substance, under
Itliae of a monarchy. What, however, he wished

to be understood wa4, that he was as unwilling to b:2,;.
ie neck to a democratic as to a military despotism.
Colonel SIBTHORPE vompLiined that Ministers h,,,
iven no explanation as to the. mode by which the R:forir
Sill was to he carried.

Lim! NEWARK, after arivertiln to the tran•actio

"tat had recently taken place with regard to tire Refori
pestion, said he might appr•'priarely quote the folowin,
.fines of the poet in reference• to them :
" Behold the hall where ChisVs were late convened,
0 dome displeasing unto British eye!
With diadem bight Fool's Cm, lo! a fiend,
A little fiend, that laughs incessantly,
There sits in parchment to be arras'd, and by
His side is hung a seal and sable scroll,
Where l:laz in'd glow names known to chivalry,
And sundry signatures adorn the scroll,
Whereat the tirchin:ioints, and laughs with all hissoul!
Convention is the dwarfish demon styl'd
That f til'd the Knights in Marialva's dome:
Of brains (if brains they had;, he them beguil'd,
And turn'd a nation's early joy to gloom !
For chiefs like these in vain may laurels bloom."

The N..bele Lord then made some observation* with
regard to the impatience of the public mind for the speedy
tdjustment of the question, and said that they had hitherto
preserved tranquillity from conviction the people en-
tertained that that House was determined to dolts duty.

- -
Lord W. LENNOX said, at this momentous crisis,
,when the country looked alone with confidence upon the
House of Commons to support their rights and liberties,
he felt it to be the imperative duty of every individua'
fearlessly an,l firmly to avow his sentiments. He would
not have obtruded upon the House had he not been dis-
appointed this evening in presenting a petition from a
most numerous and respectable body of the inhabitants of
King's Lynn, who express their satisfaction at the sec mll
mf his Majesty's late Ministers, and who call upon time
House to support those patriotic Ministers in carrying the
measure of Reform. In the prayer of the petition he en-
tire'y eminent red, and until he had an opportunity of pre-
senting it he would merely confine himself to saying that.
o the unmutilated Bill of Reform he would continue to
give his most uncompromising support.
The c"nversation then dropped.