The Sun.
London, England, 1859-01-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JANUARY 14, 1859.

MR. ROEBUCK AT SHEFFIELD.

A public meeting of the people of Sheffield was
held in the Town-hall yesterday afternoon, to hear
addresses from Mr. J. A. Roebuck and Mr. George
Hadfield, the borough members. The hall was
crowded some time before the hour fixed for com-
mencing. The meeting was composed principally
of working men. Upon the entrance of Mr. Roebuck
he was received with a tremendous burst of cheering.

The MAYOR (Mr. Charles Atkinson) occupied the
chair. In commencing the proceedings he said,--
Gentlemen, I have the honour to introduce to you
our respected members, John Arthur Roebuck and
George Hadfield, who will address you on the pre-
sent state of political affairs, and, I have . not the
slightast doubt, much valuable information will be
elicited, that will lead to measures of an important
nature during the ensuing session of Parliament.
(Hear, hear.) I have to request that you will give
that patient attention which the interest and merit
of the several subjects require, Without saying
any more I will introduce to you Mr. Roebuck, who
will speak for himself. (Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK, on rising to address the meeting,
was received with great applause, and when silence
was restored he said :—Mr. Mayor,—We are met,
Sir, at present upon a momentous question, and I
think for a most important object. It has been told
us in various ways that her Majesty's preient Mini-"
titers intend to propound to Parliament a plan for
the reform of the 'House of Commons. You Sir,
have asked us to come down, as I suppose, to tell
our views about this proposed reform--:-what we
think it ought to be, and then to state to you what
areour opinions with respect to the chance of your
ever getting it. (A laugh.) Now then, before I pro-
ceed to discuss these two points, I must beg a calm
and a favourable consideration, for it so happens, I
believe, that I shall say some things that may not
be palatable to everybody here. (Hear.) It has
always been my custom through-life, and I think
so with you, to speak out my *mind openly. I
have always thought that the safest policy was
the most honest one. (Hear, hear.) I have
always, when dealing with my fellow-countrymen,
told them what my opinions are. If, then it should
so happen that I should say things to-day which
may not be palatable to you all, I cannot help it.
(A laugh.) I will tell you what I think. If you
don't like it I shall be sorry, but I cannot help it.
(A laugh.) It has been told to me—l have heard it
said that my hon. colleague and myself are to come
down here to take your instructions. Now, that is
not my opinion. (Hear.) lam hererespectfully to
hear anything you can say ; but when you haVe
said your say, it is my own conscience and my own
intellect that -must decide upon my own course of
conduct. - With these preliminary remarks I will
proceed at once to speak about the proposed reform.
(Hear, hear.) Now, let us at ,first understand one
another about certain great principles ; and, when
we have done that, I take it that the conclusion we
may come to will not be very difficult of deciding,
and we shall not have much difference of opinion.
Now, it so happens that most of the means and ap-
pliances of life and of happiness depend on labour,
they are the acquisitions of labour ; but labour is
pain, and every man endeavours as much as pos.
sible to escape from pain. There are, as regards this
subject; two ways of proceeding—viz., to work for
yourselves' and obtain for yourselves the means of
life and of happiness • or to force others to work for
you. (A laugh.) And it so happens that it is the
constitution of man, that he will if he can adopt
the latter course. There is in man's heart a desire
to make others work for him rather than he for
himself. (Hear.) In order to prevent the strong
from oppressing the weak, men have combined to-
gether and delegated a certain degree of power to
others. This power is government. But the very
same peculiarity of the human mind which renders
government necessary, also induces Government to
take the place of the invader, and be itself
the strong oppressing the weak. Therefore
you must have some watchmen to watch the
watcher. You must have somebody to protect the
weak against the Government. Now, then, comes
the great question—how shall we attain that
end ? Ancient nations did it by the people doing it.
Nations at that time were small—at least those' to
which I am now referring. They were usually con-
fined within the walls of the city. The whole people
met together and judged in their united capacity of
the conduct of the Government. But it is clear that
if this were the only means in man's power there
could be no great free state. (Hear, and cries of
"Adjourn.?) I hope you will not stop me now. IA
scene of tremendous uprciar took place, a small but
noisy section in the room being resolved not to hear
the hon. member unless themeeting were adjourned
to a larger room.]
The MAYOR—I trust you will be silent while.the
hon. member is addressing you. (Adjourn, adjourn,
and interruption.) •
Mr. ROEBUCK—I'II go • on when you'll allow me.
(Adjourn , adjourn.)
Mr. Councillor NaDiN-.—l beg to move that we
adjourn to the Townhead-street Temperance-hall.
Mr. Councillor A. BOOTH—I move that we ad-
journ to the Surrey Music-hall. (No, no, and great
noise.)
Mr. W. FISHER, sen., here rose, and moved that
they remain where they were. (Cheers, and inter-
ruption.) He proposed that for this simple reason
—that there was not a room in Sheffield that would
accommodate all who wanted to be present, and
therefore somebody must be out. Go where they
would there would not be sufficient accommodation
for all, and they would be no better off even if they
did adjourn.
Mr. ROEBUCK—I am in the hands of the meeting
and will do anything you like. (Cries of "Go on,
and " Adjourn.")
The MAYOR—Let us go where we will not be
placed at a disadvantage. (" There is plenty of room
in the Surrey Music hall_; it will seat about 4,000
persons : let us go there.")
The MAYOR—I will put the question to you,
whether you will remain here or adjourn ?
It was then put to the 'meeting, and an immense
majority were for remaining where they. were ; but
there were still cries of "Adjourn," and interrup-
tion. _ _

The MAYOR—The majority must carry the day,
and I call upon you to take your seats and remain.
The Mayor here requested Mr. Roebuck to stand
on the table and address the meeting, but,
The Hon. Member objected to this, and replied,
" I can't and I won't."
Mr. Alderman H. E. HOOLE now came forward,
and was greeted with applause. He said—You all
want to hear your members, and they are anxious
for as many to hear them as possibly can. Are
there people outside that want to come in ? What
is the state of things outside, because you are not
inconveniently crowded here ?
Mr. Councillor SAUNDERS—There are about 20
people outside.
Alderman H. E. HOFLE—The members will' ad-
journ, or do anything you wish ; but what is the
use of adjourning if there is room? (" There is room
in the gallery for a hundred people.")
Alderman H. E. HOOLE then introduced Mr.
Roebuck to the meeting amid great interruption.
Mr. ROEBUCK—I will put this question to you,
is there a man in this room who does not hear me ?
You can hear everything I say. Very well, then, if
you will allow me I will go on. (" Go on.") I
cannot proceed if you talk, and what is more, I
won't. (Laughter and commotion.) When you are
quiet I will go on, but I won't before. (Renewed
uproar.) Be quiet and hear me. If you will be
quiet I will proceed. I was stating—(uproar.) I
shall not proceed while there is a row. (Continued
interruption.) Now, I want to know if you will
allow me to go on, because if you will not I'll take
up my hat and go. (Great uproar.) Mr. Roebuck,
whose remarks had been uttered witkmuch warmth,
then took up his hat as if with the intention of
leaving the room.
The MAYOR interposed, and besought the meet-
ing to give Mr. Roebuck a hearing.
Mr. HARVEY—Don't allow your member to retire
from the meeting,' and so shoki your unfitness
for the franchise. (Hear, and hisses.) If Mr. Roebuck
is to retire, shame to the men who won't hear him !
Mr. ROEBUCK—Now. sir, I will go on. (Renewed
uproar from the centre of the room, caused by a knot
of men• Who were intent upon an adjournment.)
The MAYoß—Gentlemen, for goodness' sake be
quiet. (Uproar.)
Various other attempts were made to restore
order, but all in vain. The weak state of Mr. Roe-
buck's health, the disgrace of refusing to hear him
after he had come all the way from London, were
urged as inducementS to silence, but without effect.
Mr. Roebuck then promised to attend another meet-
ing in the evening for those who could not gain
admission into the room, or could not remain with
comfort ; but there were about a dozen or 20 per-
sons in the body of the hall who were determined

not to allow the meeting to proceed. After 40
minutes had been wasted, Mr. Roebuck took up his
hat and retired. amid cheering ; Mr. Hadfield fol-
lowed, and the Mayor dissolved the meeting.
A consultation took place at the Royal Hotel,
and the crowd having gathered outside, it was
eventually determined that another meeting should
at once be held in the Temperance-hall. This was
announced to the crowd outside, who at once went
thither. Though the room is capable of holding
from 3,000 to 4,000 persons it was filled within a
few minutes, and so great was the pressure that the
reporters, in order to reach the platform, had to
climb thrOugh a back window. The meeting was
afterwards carried on without a renewal of the in-
terruption previously experienced.
The MAYOR having been called to the chair,
introduced Mr. Roebuck, who was received with
prolonged cheering.
Mr. ROEBUCK, after recapitulating his former
arguments, proceeded to say—Now, then, the great
discovery of modern statesmen has been the system
of thorough representation. They have said, and we
have discovered, that' people meeting ' together
choose, their representatives, those representatives
being made the watchers of the Government, and by
that means you attain all you can have by good go-
vernment. They would watch the Government, and
they would take care that the Government did not
oppress the weak, as was the nature of mankind to
do--to make the weak work for them. But here
came in again a difficulty. How should you watch
the representatives of the _people? There is only
one means. To make, their office of a 'certain dura-
tion, to make them to be elected for a certain
time, and then to return back again, so that you
may put their deserts to the test by either re-elect-
ing or discharging them. The elective body is so
narrow as not to represent the whole people's in-
terests; yet the elective body will have the power
to tyrannise over the others. Therefore the ques-
tion is, how we shall make the elective body repre-
sent the whole people. I am now about to address
myself to a point upon which I very much believe
that a great number of -you won't agree with me.
But, as I said at the Town-hall, I beg your kind
forbearance. I speak out straightforward what I
mean. I may be wrong. Now, here I am very
often told—recollect, the point we are upon is to
make the electors represent the interests of the
whole people, because -without that they would not
be an efficient check upon ,the representatives, who
are a check upon the Governraent—l am very often
told that every man has an' inalienable right to,
electoral power. I at once tell you that 1 don't
understand that language. What is the inalienable
right ? Is there any country in the world in which
that power exists ? No: If there were, the people
would not be oppressed.. They have not, then, as
a matter of fact, that which they -call their inalien-
able right ; or, in other words, universal suffrage,
manhood suffrage, or the other terms they give it.
What do you mean .by an inalienable right ? My
object in the matter is to make the constituent body
fairly.represent the whole. people,. because t say
that for, the government of mankind it is requisite
it should be so. But when you tell me that a man
has the inalienable right, I at once tell you I don't
understand it. I am going to tell you what I be-
lieve is necessary to make the body of electors to
represent the interests of the • community at large.
Here again is a difficulty in understanding this ma-
lienablo right, for one-half of the human race are
women. How are they to become an elective body ?
This is a matter that has often been discussed, and
I must say that, owing everything as I do to women,
for their happiness and our own I would certainly
relieve them from the trouble of politics. By stat-
ing this I make at once a great defalcation from the
whole of the human race. But, mark you, if you
talk about the inalienable right, it must be for the
women' as well as men. Again, when shall people
have the elective power ?- You won't give it to a
baby at four year old ? It must come ; then we'll
strike off all under 21. Then you leave a large
mass of the adult pophlation unrepresented. What
can be done with them ? Hertofore, the electoral
franchise was in the hands of a very small portion
of the community. From the time of William HI.
downwards the power has been in the hands of the
landlords. When 1830 came there was a great
Reform Bill introduced by the Whig reformers .
We all know what that meant. It did not extend
to the working classes, but the working classes
aided in getting it. (Hear.) They, said, and in a
manner that weds me to them,—we know we
shall not be benefited by that Reform Bill,
but they said, we will give you that which we desire
for ourselves, feeling confident that by the enjoy-
ment of what we seek you will see the justice of giv-
ing us that which we give you. I well remember
that Reform Bill. I had a hand in stirring up the
people to ask for it. And they did ask for it, and so
forcibly that we were on the very brink of a revolu-
tion to obtain it. We were saved from that out-
break, we were saved from the horrors of that war
by the Duke of Wellington. He, by the great power
he obtained over the House of Lords, persuaded
them to yield, and you
.have that Reform Bill.
From the time of the passing of the Reform Bill
there has been a pressure on the House of. Commons
and a pressure on every statesman, calling for a new
Reform Bill, because there is a great body of my
fellow-countrymen worthy to have a voice in the
representation. I speak of the working classes.
They were excluded by the Reform Bill, and depend
upon it that every attempt to obtain a new reform
will be an attempt in some way to give power to the
working classes. But mark me—mark me well—
there will be an imposition practised on you. There
will be a large and wide increase of the suffrage.
But will it affect the composition of the House of
Commons ? I will tell you. The large increase of
voting power will just return the same members
that have been returned, and Liberal men will be
returned just as they have been before. But while
no other reform takes place in the constitution the
House of Commons will remain just what it now is.
Therefore there are two things to be considered—
first, the franchise, and next the distribution.
(Hear, hear.) We ought to ascertain who are to
have votes, and next the area of persons who shall
return representatives to Parliament, thereby, as I
believe, entirely overturning the landed aristocracy
of this country. (Cheers.) I don't blink the ques-
tion. There .it is. (Cheers.) Now I want to
know how we shall give to the working classes
that which we desire. And truly I say it is for
the interest of the working classes themselves
that the 'vagabond population should not be
represented. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Roebuck ex-
pressed his opinion that every man living in a
house rated to the poor, occupying the whole or
part thereof, and registered as an occupant, ought
to be endowed with the franchise. He went on—l
believe the House of Commons at present represents
very truly the passions and feelings which are pe-
culiar to Englishmen. I remember making that
statement once before in Sheffield, and a person who
was present asked me this pertinent question, " If
you think the House of Commons represents the
feelings and passions of the people, why do you
want any reform in Parliament ?" My answer was,
" They represent the feelings and passions of the
people, but they don't represent the interests of the
people." (Cheers.) Mr. Roebuck proceeded to eulo-
gise the gentry for their charity and kindly feeling
and said,—But I would not allow them to remain
in their present position, because it is one of temp-
tation. They ought not to have the power of
doing mischief, although good is in their hearts,
and. they would do good. I think it is utterly
impossible to have squares or electoral districts.
I don't think it is possible to enter into
any human mind to form such a plan. I
would increase the representatives of the larger
towns. Take Sheffield with her 160,000 inhabi-
tants. I would divide Sheffield into two, and I
would give to each division of the town two mem-
bers. But I would take away the members from
all boroughs under 10,000 inhabitants. In this way
you would get about 120 members. Then you
would have to distribute them. I would give them
to the large towns and to the West Riding of York-
shire, which ought to have an increase of represen-
tatives, and also to Lancashire. What chance is
there that we shall obtain anything like this ? First
and foremost, there is not such a feeling on the
part of the people about reform as to force on the
House of Commons such a change as I have stated.
I remember during the last reform agitation people
said there would be a civil war. The whole coun-
try was aroused ; man, woman, and child could talk
of nothing else. Now there is an apathy about re-
form, and till you can persuade the House of Com-
mons that, it would be dangerous to resist, you can-
not expect such a reform as I have propounded.
Well, then, we must wait. Depend upon it that
England at the present moment is better governed
than any other part of the world. I don't care
where that other part is. (Cheers.) I am told to
look at America. Look at America, sir. Are there
not 6,000,000 of slaves in America, and does not
the declaration of independence of the. Republic
state that all men are barn free ? It should have
. said all white men, I say, away with the nonsen4e,

talking to me about America. In England a man
can say pretty well what he likes, and can do what
he pleases, so long as he does not interfere with his
neighbour. This is a rational freedom.. (Cheers.)
But there is one thing which I hope for in a reformed
Parliament. I mean economical government. But
before you expect a reformed Parliament you must
reform yourselves. I _don't think economy will
come from £lO householders. The old Parliament
had an expenditure—l was going to say not half
so heavy as this, and since the Reform Bill, or the
£lO householders voted, the expenditure has
increased every year. One thing I must remark
as to. the • composition of administrations. It
was fancied when the last Reform Bill was intro-
duced that the aristocratic portion of the Legisla-
ture would for the future have no monopoly of the
governing power. But I recollect that in the first
Reform Parliament when Mr. Gisborne said, " I
hope now Mr. Hume, Mr. Warburton, and Mr.
Grote will be members of the Government," it was
received by the whipper-snappers of the aristocracy
Wells of contempt.. Mr. Hume you all know ;
arburton was a great man, and bad all that
constituted a great man. Mr. rote has made a
name for himself, and has added another wreath to
the laurels which have been "gained for. England by
writers. He is the historian of Greece. He was
trained to government, and yet there was not a
whipper-snapper of the aristocracy but what turned
up his nose at him. (Cheers and laughter.) BUt
a great change has come over the House. We are
not now wedded' to the notion that there are only
three.men who can take the government of the Conn-
try—Palineriton, Russell, and Derby. It is sup-
posed that among the 20,000,000 of Englishmen a
Prime Minister cannot be found• besides these three.
When I first went into Parliament, sanguine, full
' of hope, and as I fancied, studied the science of govern-
ment, I was shocked at what I found to be the feel-
ing of persons who represented the great northern
hives of indifstry and the city of London. They
were the representatives of the large constituencies
of the country, and I always found them like what
Cobbett said of Sir F. Burdett, poking his knees into
the back of the Prime Minister: (Laughter.) Take
any locality you please. You want a representa-
tive—you look about and find a well-to-do man
more than 50 years of age, and you send him head-
long into an assembly of critics, the most acute
that the world ever saw, with feelings alive to
everything ludicrous. The man gets up. He makes
an attempt at a speech, and is laughed at. He per-
haps leaves out a " h," and a Shout of derision runs
through the house. Down he sits, and his mouth
is clesed for ever. (Cheers and laughter.) That
accounts in a great measure for what you must
have all remarked, that you are not represented in
the House of Commons in a way to give you the
weight you ought to have. The wealth, the in-
dustry, the intelligence, the acuteness of the north
—are they to lie found in your representative in the
House of Commons ? No. Does London, that great
mart of the whole world, send members who are an
honour to the House of Commons ? I say, no. Well,
then, I ask, what can you possibly expect from a
reformed House of Commons if you do not prepare
men to go into that house capable of discharging
their duty as your representatives, and not' merely
rich men that all their lives have been engaged in
the accumulation of wealth, and who know as much
about government as Ido 'about China. (Cheers.)
You must send fit men to represent you. I have
observed that the great classes of the north are
turning their attention to it. They are now train-
ing young men up to be the equals of the gentry
who go to Oxford and Cambridge—(cheers)—and
when they are so they will step into their
proper places. England will be duly repre-
sented, and you will have a manufactur-
ing population represented by educated manu-
facturers—men who can take their places by
the side of any man, no matter how great may be
his name or lineage. Until you have such edu-
cated men as your representatives, depend upon it
no Reform Bill will be what you wish. I will now
turn to another point. "Do I believe that the Re-
form Bill will be the great business ofthe session ?" I
do notbeliove it will, and I will tell you why. Eng-
land started in the race of government with the great
nations of Europe pretty much upon an equality.
There was a certain degree of freedom in all. Years
went on, and fortune favoured England, but did
not favour the continent of Europe. The result
has been that England stands alone among the
great powers of Europe as the hope of our common
humanity. Despotism reigns in Austria, France,
Prussia, Russia, and in Italy. We are lying on the
outside of Europe, and the jealous eye of every po-
tentate of Europe is upon us. We have a difficulty
in maintaining our position ; all the world of tyranny
watches England, which is the Great light of man-
kind. (Cheers.) Depend upon it, we are on the eve
of great changes in Europe. During the disastrous
year of 1848 the population of Europe rose up against
these despotisms, but were so totally incapable of
governing themselves, that it has ended, as you have
seen in France, enlightened and great as she is, in
a pitiful despotism. (Hear, hear.) With France we
have been allied, and with her we are now upon
good terms. But every turn of the wheel is watched
in order to do us harm. We are insulted wherever
we can be. If there is a question upon which Eng-
lishmen have been alive for the last half century it
has been the slave trade. At last our great and
friendly ally has east in our face an insult such as
England never before bore. Well, we did bear it;
and I suppose we shall bear a good deal more. But
if you give a foot you will be asked to give a yard.
Stop at once. Say,—No, we will not retreat. We
have intended the good of mankind by our protec-
tion of the unfortunate slave, and we will, under
Providence, continue that protection, and woe be to
him who attacks us. (Loud cheers.) As I came down
from London to-day I watched with anxiety on my
arrival here to know whether there had been an
electric telegram. I was anxious because Europe is
on the eve of war. Depend upon it, our foreign re-
lations next year will interfere with our domestic
concerns. I therefore entreat you not to misappre-
hend the doings of your representatives. I and my
hon. colleague shall do all we can to forward your
views ; but they will be crossed—l do not believe he
fancies so, but I am sure of it—by considerations of
our foreign relation.s England will find that she
cannot touch pitch without being defiled. Our
alliances ought to be with freedom everywhere.
(Cheers.) A despot, however he may have
,gained
his power, ought to be to us a despot still. With
France as a people let us be in alliance. She is a
gallant and great nation, and has 'been a light to
mankind, as we have been ; but she has not an ex-
ample of good government. We have seen consti-
tutional government in France trodden out by the
hard heel of an unblushing despot.. Constitutional
government has been put down, England has been
insulted, and every possible attempt has been made
by that despot to ally himself with the Powers of
Europe, tyrannical as they are. Depend upon it the
pretence now made of aiding and assisting Italy is
a mere pretence to march down his praetorian
hordes upon that great country. He will erect in
the place of the eagle of Austria the eagle of France.
I have no faith in a man who has perjury on his
lips. (Cheers.) I recollect when at Cherbourg, see-
ing the Emperor of the French visit the Queen of
England. It was a great sight. Everything was
there to excite and rouse the buoyant spirits of men.
I saw that man mount the steps which led to our
noble Queen's vessel, and when I saw his perjured
lips upon her hallowed cheek my blood rushed to
my heart to think of that holy and good creature
being defiled by the lips of a perjured despot. (Loud
cheers and huzzas.) The sight which I then beheld
was a type of England. She was in alliance with
this despot—she, the great light of mankind, whose
writers, philosophers, whose mechanics, every man
of us, have been working in the great cause of
humanity. England is upon a pinnacle at which
•the world wonders—many admire, and still more
envy. She is great because she is good. (Hear.)
But, depend upon it, no alliance with foulness can
be made without foulness attaching to the ally. I
say at once that rather than be the ally—the active
ally of a despot like Louis Napoleon, I would at
once break away from him. (Hear.) England alone
can withstand all his anger and all his power, but
you must support your Government in that great
move. If you do that, we need not fear, though
the world stood in arms against us. I have pretty
nearly explained all 'I want to explain. Mark me
well. I have told you that the Reform Bill will
not be the great business of the session. You must
be prepared forithat ; and, being prepared for that,
go you steadfastly on to the great end. You have
a view. (Near.) Be determined to obtain reform,
and you will obtain it. Tell your representatives
what you think. I have your statement in the
petition. With the petition I agree ; and, so far as
it is concerned, Sheffield will be thoroughly repre-
sented by my hon. colleague and myself. In many
other matters I fear it will be very inefficiently re-
presented. (The hon. gentleman resumed his seat
amid loud applause.)

Mr. HADFIELD-It ik not in my power to siy
with my hon and learned colleague that the little
clique that disturbed us this evening has not dis-
turbed me. I must confess also that what I hate
'just heard has placed me in a difficulty, I meant