The Sun.
London, England, 1832-02-15 00:00:00

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hers, or the tiewate.h of public business required, and that
as there appeared to them no alternative between building •
a new House of Commons, or allowing the House to re-
main in its present state, they thought they were not jus-
ei:ied in going into any further inquiries without again re
curving to the opinions and pleasure of the House. After
observing that the Hon. Member for Mid(ll-sex, who sat
on that 'Committee, had expressed himself in femur of a
new and magnificent House of Comniens, the Gallant
Member proceeded to explain again the manner in which
he uroposed throwing back the eailery, to afford acconi-
inaia ion in the body of the House for 100 additional
I.N/embers, and at the same time giving additional rooms to
the officers of the House, and he concluded by moving for
onother Committee to inquire into the merits of his plan,
by considering the state of the body of the House, and
the offices connected with it, with a view of affording
better accommodation to the Members, and facilitating the
despatch of public busineas."
Mr. WARBURTON expressed his rarprise that the
Gallant Member should have suprosed that the Member
for Middlesex intended to favour the erection of a magni-
ficent House of Commons,—(A laugh.) He (Mr. War-
burton) had not been on the Committee, bet he had con-
versed with his Hon. Friend on the subject, and he knew
that magnificence formed ne part of his plan.--( Hear,
sad a laugh.) Magnificence was the last word that could
he applied to any pier. ot the Member for :Middlesex.—(A
laugh.) His plan was merely to build a larger and more
nimodious House, if the Members agreed that the
nreent one was not sufficient. He (Mr. Warburton)
however, ohjected to the proposal et the Hon. Member
"or Cambridge (Colonel Trench), which went to make an
inconvenient oblong room still more oblong. If they
wanted a plan with all the advantages of hearing and
seeing, let them take one of the theatres of the tendon
I:a:varsity, where every person was placed at the same
distance from the speaker, so that he ha.`: the means of
'preserving order in the whole areeetnitly.--( Hear, and a
laugh.) very one acquainted with that House knew
that from its shape it .7:•-as impossible for the Speaker to
.:reserve, on crowded nights, the order that was desirable.
With this feeling, he, for one, would prefer the erection ot
a new House. to the adoption of the plan of the Hon.
M tuber, which he was confident, would he fund nearlv
as expensive, without giving any of the requisite conve-
niences. With regard to the Committee, he arenld only
say, that as the Hon. Member had tried his plan before
ore Committee, he did not see why he was to have an-
other for precisely the same purpose. He thought it
would be infinitely better for the Members to come at
ot:ce to the conclusion of whether it was fitting to a no'
House or not; and if they thought that a new me should
he erected, to refer the matter at once either to the Board

of Works, or to an architect chosen for the purpose.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY said the simple question for
the House to determine was, whether it would have a new
building or not, as he believed every one who knew any
thing of architectural matters was satisfied that the alte-
ration plan of the Hon. Member (Trench) wou'd not
give satisfaction, grad at the same time prove nearly as
expensive as a new erection.—(Hear.) Instead of grant.
ins another Committee, he would recommend the bolls.
to pause, and take time to consider whether they would be
content with the present building, or erect a new one.
Lord ALTHORP at present did not wish to give any
kspinion, and begg«l to be considered as leaving the matte,
to the House, and not interfering, in one w or the other.
Sir R. PEEL had no hesitation in saying, that if the
question was put that night whether they were to have a
new House, or retain the present one, he should vote for
the House as it then stood with all its inconveniences.
Colonel TRENCH replied, and having exprvsged hi•
regret that he was not to he the humble instrument for
procuring the 'Members a better accommodation, asked
leave, under such an expression of their opinions, to with.
draw his motion.—Motion withi!rawn accordingly.
CHOLERA MORBUS.
Lord ALTHORP hoped the Howe would, under a con-
sideration of the exigency of the occasion, pardon him for
pressing the subject of his motion on their consideration
at the earliest opportunity, and at the same time so for

the whole elpen'e ciut of the general funds of the country
Mr. STANLEY observed, across the table, that there
were two Acts, the sSth and 39th of Gen. 111., which
provided measures for preventing the spread of contagiou+
diseases in Ireiand, and it would he merely necessary to
introduce a short Bill, with some additional provisions.
Sir R. PEEL was still convinced it would be better to
pay the expence of fulfilling the order of the Privy Council
as he recommended, instead of multiplying the means of
carrying these measures into effect. It was the duty of,
the Government to bring the Bill into operation as quickly
as possible, and that object would be much expedited by
simplifying its details.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord MILTON felt himself bound to entreat the Noble
Lord to adopt the Right Hon. Baronet's suggestion. He
entreated him to accede to it. The obj•ct of the eYpen-
diture, the prevention of the propagation of a dreadful
disease, was not parochial but national, and should be
paid out of the national fends.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUNT ellreeted the attention of the Noble Lord
to the ett.te of the parish of Bethnil-green, and asked him
if it was possible to colh ct any rates there for the purpose
of paying the expence of obeying the orders of the Gamed ?
He begged also to direct Attention to the fact that the Lord
Mayor had given a house in Abcbuieh-lane, in the very
heart of the city, for the use of persqas attacked by the
dise'se. Was nut the existence of such an establishment,
in such a quarter, one of the surest means of propagating
disease
Sir G. CLERK said that the disease bad already ap-
peared in Edinburgh, and lie, therefore, suggested to the
Noble Lord the propritt;, of legalising, with the least pos-
sible delay, the measures which the Council might thick
proper to adopt for preventing the progress of the con-
tagion in Scotland. If the Noble Lord would consult the
Learned Lord Advocate, he would hear froro him, hut
for the aid of gifts, of "Tuluntary sus scriptions. it would
have been implealble, in many places, to meet the ex-
pencea v:hiCh had been incurred. He knew that the ML-
g;strates had the strongest dispositiou to obey the orders
and injunctions of the Privy Council, but the law did not
authorise them to use compulsory measures, and he hoped,
therefore, that the Noble Lard would lose no time in arm-
ing them with the necessary powers.
Lord ALTHORP said, the ground of objection taken
by the Government to the defraying the expence • out of
the public funds, was, that there would be no check on
such an expenditure, and that it would lead, therefore, to
great extravagance.—(Hear, hear.) Although he ad-
mitted it would be a very bad economy not to give a sum
sufficient for the purpose, yet the Government were natu-
rally unwilling to entrust an uncontrouled power with an
expenditure which might he converted into waste and ix
travagance. 'f he object was, where the purposes of the

Council could he effected, not to spare any necessary ex-
pence, but at the same time to avoid all useless outlay ; and
he thought this would be best effected by the provisions of
the Bill, which, by making the cost parochial at first, pre-
served the necessary controul, and at the same time afforded
a check to all extravagsnce.—(Hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON again took occasion to ask the
Noble Lord how he proposed to legalise the demand on the
vestry for the money in the first instance ?
Lord ALT HORP replied, that the Orders of the Council
being rendered legal by the Bill, it followed that the demand
for the expenses would be legal when made on the parishes.
Mr. GOULBURN supported the views of his Right
Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) with respect to the payment-
out of the national purse. All payments would be made
furtherance of the Orders of the Council, and of theirs
,nly, and therefore they would have by that means a com-
plete controul over the expenditure. It might happen in
he other case, by making the expenditure parochial, that
the Orders of the Council would he obeyed in those cases
where the least necessity existed, and not obeyed fully in
,:ases of emergency.—(Hear.)
Sir R. VYVYAN thought that the penalty of five
pounds was not sufficient to procure a strict adherence to
,he regulations, and recommended, therefore, that the sum
,hould be raised or the powers of the Council increased.
No one could object to this, for it was one of the questions
into which there entered no party feeling. All were, he
hoped, emulous of contributing to promote the public

dispense with the ordinary forms as to allow the stages of nealth and welfare.—(Hear, hear.)
his Bill to be gone through ae far as possible that evening. Lord ALTHORP reminded the Hon. Baronet that the
He must, at the came time, take leave, in making this Bill made offences a misdemeanour, at the same time it gave
request, to state to them a little more at large than ordi- lower to inflict a fine.
nary, the nature and provisions of his Bill. Althougt Colonel TRENCH, adverting to the Noble Lord's pro-
the Orders in Ceuncil were issued, there was no power vision in the Bill for the burial of the dead, took occasion
veste din the Privy Council to compel their hting legal!~ us ask if any place had teen provided for that purpose ?
carried into effect ; and, therefore, when the Orders of Every one knew the state of the receptacles for that pur-
the Council for the prevention of contagion were promul. pose in the metropolis and its vicinity.
gated, aethere was no pewter to compel obedience to tbese. Mr. P. THOMSON said, the subject had been some
orders, it became necessary to apply to Parliament to ob. time under the consideration of the Government. A ne-
t:tin it in order that they might be fully carried into effect. g,ciation had been entered into for a piece of ground, and
Undoubtedly, therefore, the power which he now required the purchase had been made on that day, so that the ar-
to be vested in the Privy Council was great, but it was rangernents as far as that point went were completed.
limited as to time, for he prepared, under present circum. With respect to the willingness of the parishes to contra.
stances, that the Act which he meant to bring in should bute for the promotion of the objects in view, he could
expire either at the end of the year, or at the expiration only say, that since the formation of the Board of Health,
of the next Session of Parliament. He thought it weuhi various applications had been made to the Government for
be admitted that it was both desirahle and necessary such supplies, which were necessarily refused, but subscriptions
powers shoold he vested with the Government on the pre- were recommended, and he was happy to say that in almost
sent emergency. All the Acts of the Council would of every instance there had been no lack of individual benefi-
rour-e be submitted to the consideration of Parliament, cence and private charity.
tint he hoped it would be allowed that no delay should take Mr. CROKER did think it would be hard that local
place in the exa cation of those measures which were funds should provide against the extension of a diseess,
necessary for the prevention of the contagion, and the the progress of which the whole nation was interested in
preservation of the health of the people. The first provi. cresting. They whip were then in that House were as
sion of the Bill empowered any three Members of the Privy touch interested in opposing the advance of this fearfui
Council, of whom the President of the Council or the Se scourge, whether it made its appearance in Spitalfields
trete!), of State were always to be one, should have power er in any other district of the metropolis ; and when it
to make rollers for the prevention of contagion, for the re appeared in the county of Kent, the neighbouring county
lief of the sick, and for the burying of the dead.—(Hear, of Sussex was as much interested in its extinction at the
bear.) Every person would admit the propriety of usieg inhabitants of the former place. Then why should the
exertions to stop, as far as could he practicable, the pro- burden be local? There was this further consideration
grecs of contagion. No one could deny that the greatest which should be borne in mind, that in whatever measures
rd mast serious evils must arise from any delay in afford- it might be necessary to adopt, care should be taken not
mg relief to those attacked ; and as to the last, it was found to introduce any provision likely to hear upon the work-
that all precautions would he ineffectual unless measures int: classes or the poor, or likely to diminish their mean'
-were adopted for the immediate interment of the dead.-- of employment; fur there could be no doubt that famine
(Hear, hear.) The next provision of the Bill declared ~r even distress would be attended with the most direful
that every person violating the orders of the Council for effects. To the half million of inhabitants residing
the preservation of the public health, should he held to be close to the hanks of the Thames, any interference with
guilty of a misdemeanour, and fined any sum which may their means of comfortable subsistence must not only in-
be considered expedient, from one pound to five pounds. crease the burdens upon the poor's rates, end thereby
--(Hear.) He admitted that the Bill gave very great diminish the amount avail able for the prevention of the
and arbitrary powers to the Privy Council—powers which disease, but tend to generate those causes to which the
nothing could justify except evreme necessity, but he disease i'self was usually attributable. After the best re-
hoped that the necessity of the present case were such as flection he could bestow upon the subject, it was his de.
to justify the Parliament in placing such powers in their tided opinion that the expence ought to he provided for
har-ts.—(Hear, hear.) The next provision of the Bili from the general funds of the nation; it might be added,
related to the expense of carrying the orders into for example, to one or other of the civil contingencies.
effect ; and here he might observe, that it was not in- Sir R. H. INGLIS expressed strong apprehension that
tended to apply the provisions of the Act to Ireland, the disease might be of long continuance in this country; it
because there were no means of the same description had ravaged India for fourteen years ; and, therefore, he
to be found in those countries for defraying the ex- should much more readily support a permanent measure
pence. As soon, however, as arrangements could he than any temporary expedient, however promising ; and he
carried into effect, it was his intention to introduce therefore was not disposed to support the suggestion of the
another Bill for effecting the same object in Scotland anti Right Hon. Baronet near him.
Ireland. He proposed, then, that in England the expense Sir M. W. RIDLEY, from what he learned in the
should be paid in the first instance out of the poor-rates North, could assure the House that local funds, or volunt try
of the several parishes, and that the SUMS expended should •uhseriptions, would never prove enough to arrest the pro-
ultimately be repaid by the counties out of the county gross of the disease ; and at the same time it was much to
rates. The Government had, en a consideration of the be feared, that if the funds of the nation at large were once
difference of the parishes, and the extent to which one opened to the purposes of the proposed Bill, it would at
might be called on beyond another, not thought it fair to at once dry up the sources of private charity. In thus
lay the expense on individual parishes, but, on the con- stating the difficulties against which they bad to contend,
trary, to require the whole to be ultimately repaid out of he be r.o means wished to discourage the House from pro-
the county rates. They had, after some consideration, ceeding further, for he knew that not a moment was to
thought it fairer to lay the expense not on the parish alone, be lost. The first and second reading of the Bill, he
but on the county generally. These were the provisions thought, should be agreed to, and in the Committee such
of the Act. He had already mentioned the limitation of clauses might be added as the cause seemed to require. It
time in which it was to be in operation ; and he hoped, was an emergency which must be met with firmness and
after the explanation he had given, that the House would caution, but at the same time every effort should be
be induced to allow it to pass as rapidly through its se- adopted to inspire the people with hope, and even with
verel stages as the form of their proceedings would admit. confidence. Care should be taken to prevent men giving
Mr. WARBURTON begged to ask the Noble Lord way to unreasonable scprehensions, for it was generally
found that. those most under the influence of fear were the
whether the Bill contained any provision to empower the
vestry to raise a rate for the purpose ? Because, if it did chief sufferers, while those who courageously and humanely
not, it was in the power of one parishioner to deprive the assisted their fellow-creatures escaped, wi-h very few ex-
pariah of all funds for the purposes which the Noble Lord ceptione. The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to enurne-
described. It was in the powet. of any parishioner to object rate the various classes of the community considered to be
to such an application of the funds of the arish bec ruse the most predisposed to the disease, and concluded by
it would be illegal, and as this would be a specious' obstacle impressing on the House the necessity of decisive and
to the accomplishment of the very
desirable objects which prompt measures.
the Government had in view, he thoughtone itda
,swould
delay, be Mr. A. DUNDAS also hoped that no time might be lost.
better for the Noble Lord to consent toMr.. HODGES was clearly of opinion that counties and
in order that proper inquiries may be made ony the sine parishes could never be expected to supply the necessary
ject, and whether all the provisions of the Bill would be funds—the evil to be met was a national evil, and to
carried into effect. which, therefore, the national purse could with propriety
Sir R. PEEL was fully satisfied that every Member of be applied.
the House would admit the necessity of investing the Mr. STANLEY fully agreed with the list speaker, that
Government with indefinite powers under the peculiar cis- local resources would neither be sufficient for the purptrsea
cumstances of the case, and on an emergency, the precise required, nor could they with fairness be so applied. The
extent of which could not be hear.) expence should be national, and it was a purpose for which
Suspecting no abuse of the powers entrusted to the Govern.. no expence would be toe great for the purpose of arresting
merit, lie thought it I etter to entrust the Council with the the pregiese of such a scourge. The question was not as
powers they demanded, without attempting to define them to the expence, but whether they should then or in the
too closely.—( Hear, hear.) The cholera, however, al- Committee consult as to the precautions which ought with-
though not a parochial disease, would be felt probably most out delay to be adopted. The point which they had to
deeply in the poorest Parishes; and as the limits of the consider was not whether the nation was to incur expence
counties were very ariaitrary—as the expence might from or not, but what were the most effectual means of esta-
peculiar circums /laces be as great in Rutland, for instance, blisfung such a controul over the expenditure of the public
as in Yorkshire—he recommended the Noble Lord et money as would insure its application to the purposes for
once to -implafy his [aloe by defraying the whole expence which it waii intended- He thought it would not be an
out of the national funds.—(Heir, bear.) The Noble unwise course if they left it to the parishes or the counties
Lord had told them it would be necessary to have another j to determine what sam might be necessary ; and when the
- Bill for Scotland and Ireland; and would it not be much disease did disappear he had no doubt that Parliament
better, instead of making complicated arrangements, to pay would be perfectly ready to reimburse them for such :Ad.

vances. that, upon the best consideration,
opinion, the best and the safe.t course.

Irons the totally defective and negligent manner in which
the accounts were there kept. He instanced the
irregular manner in which the business of the Vic-
tualling Office was transacted, in respect to a corn-
mill erected by that Board to grind flour for biscuit-
baking for the Navy, which appeared by the archi-
tect's estimate in 1826, to be submitted to the Board
at a probable cost of 44,0001., which in 1827 was re-
duced to 37,800/., and when he came into office he found
the whole sum expended on the building amounted to
above 76,000/. of which the only sum voted by Parliament
for this service was B,oool.—(Hear.) This was hut one
of several items where the outl .y exceeded so materially
the vote of money granted by Parliament, as applicable to
that particular service. In the instance of the works at
Weovil, though not one shilling had been voted by Parlia-
ment, the outlay exceeded 155,0001 all of which he found
paid when he came into office. He admitted that in this
instance an estimate h d been laid before the Admiralty—
this amounted to 206,000/. ; though none bad been laid
before the House, nor had there been any vote of money
by Parliament in the usual way. The case of Woolwich
was also in point, where, of an expenditure exceeding
400,0001. in the period he alluded to, little more than a
f'urth had been provided for by Parliamentary votes. In
this way, the expence always exceeding the vote of Parlia-
ment, it would be found that from 182.5 to 1830, although
a sum not less than 839,408/. had been expended in this
department, the amount of all the votes did not exceed
270,4651., leaving unprovided for by Parliament a surplus
which must be supplied from other funds not communed
by the House of 568,9131.—(Hear, hear.) It would
here he necessary to premise that, by an order of the
Treasury, in the time of Lord Sand.vich's Adrninietra-
tier], bearing date in the year 1776, confirmed by Par-
liament, the supply of timber fit for building and
repairing ships was on no account to be less in the
yards than au average supply fur two years. It had b. en
the practice of late years to evade this regulation ; the
purchases were not kept up. as appeared by official letters,
from which he read extracts, and the 8111114 so left unap-
plied, though voted by Parliament, were appropriated to,
amongst others, those buildings he had alluded to. This
turn amounted, in the four years to which he alluded—
during which considerable sums, for which no adequate
vote had been taken, were laid out in cast buildings and
naval works—ti no less than 1,029,000/., so much less
being expended in ship timber than had been provided for
by Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) There had been two very
salutary regulations made by his immediate predecessors
at the Admiralty—the first was a check they devised upon
the issues and appropriation of public stores in the dock-
yards of the kingdom, consisting ledgers to be kept care-
fully of such issues at the different outporte, whilst a
counter ledger of issues was to be kept at the office of the
Navy Board. Now the object was, by this arrangement,
to ascertain if the issues, taken together, of the outports
corresponded with the issues in the counter ledger at the
Navy Office. If this happened, there would be little
doubt but that, by this plain and simple mode, ill fraud in
this department would he impossible. Strange to say,
however, notwithstanding this arrangement, so totally ir-
relionsible to the Admiralty did the Navy Office feel itself,
that the arrear in ken ping this counter ledger at the
Navy Office was so great, that no information what-
ever could by possibility be derived from it. So that
though great efforts had been made to accomplish this ob-
ject, it might, for any use it w is of, he abandoned alto-
gether as hopeless.—( Hear.) But this was not the only
instance of evasion, by that body, of the rules laid down
to the N ivy Board. An order, by the same predecessors
in office, of a similarly prudent charac'er, was laid down
for its government by the Admiralty relative to the quan-
tum of men to be kept up and employed in the yards.
The order was signed by the Noble Lord (Melville) and
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and certainly was
one proceeding on the sound principle that the quota ap-
pointed was sufficient for the service during peace. It
required the Board not to put any labourers on the list
anew until they were reduced in number to the peace eeta-
bl:shinent—nantely, 6,000 ; and that when they should
come down in number to 7,000, the men should then
begin to work on Wedne-days. Now, this very proper
order should have been, from its date, one year in opera-
tion when he came into office, at which time tlse number
was 7,193, and the reduction, it would thence appear, had
not been carried within 200 of the amount of reduction
required by that order. These instances alone would
suffice to show how imperfect was the controul which
could be exercised by the Admiralty in three cases,
and how flagrant and striking was the disobedience
displayed on the part of the Navy Beard. One great
and alarming source of expence arose out of the
neglect of the Navy Board to provide means for taking
stock iif stores in hand, so as to prevent surreptitious
abstraction of the property of the public from the yards
and stores throughout the different stations. In one
ar-
ticle alone—namely, copper—although marked with the
King's mark, so great had been the quantity purloined,
that not less than five tons and a half of it were offered to
manufacturers at Birmingham at a price so low as to ex-
cite suspicions in the fair trader that it was improperly
procured. Although this occurred within eight weeks,
and the transport of the copper was traced to Chatham,
such was the imperfect way in which these things were
checked or controuled in that yard, that the circumstance
would never have been discovered there, had it not
awakened suspicion in the fair trader, who was satisfied it
could not fairly be offered at Birmingham, at so very dis-
proportionately low a price.—(Hear.) He apologized for
going thus extensively into these transaction-, but he felt
he was justified in that line of conduct, because be felt
conscious he was about to propose very t xtensive things,
and he therefore considered it expedient to justify that
proposition, that he should lay the foundation proportion-
ably deep, on which he must finally base that proposition
with which he would conclude.—(Hear, hear.) Al-
though one would have imagined, as an account of every
thing was taken, furnished from the dock-yard, for
the building of a shop, that, whether it was large or
small, it would have been easy to have furnished an
account of what might be the expense of the ves-
sel in building from the hooks at the yard, the
House would be surprised to hear that nothing could be
more difficult. In fact, an appeal to those books would
end in nothing but dieapperntment and delusion ; it one
was desirous of getting at the money cost of a ship of war,
if it were confined even to what the cost was of the ma-
terials expended on her only during the last four month.,
such was the cabalistic form of price affixed to each item that
the moment you came to figures, which, in other transac-
tions of life were intended to simplify and clear up every
thing, here all was confusion. The money price was sure
to lead to error worse confounded. All the prices were
taken at the old war prices, at from 25 to 30, or even 40,
per cent. beyond the present prices ; so that it was impos-
sible to obt in a return of actual cost price which was not
a tissue throughout of deception and exaggeration. He
would pursue this part of the subject no further, convinced
in his own mind that lie had given instances enough to
prove that the controul, as exercised now by the Admiralty,
was unsatisfactory and inefficient.—(Hear, hear.) He
should now approach the subject of the remedy which he
intended to propose to check the evils of the present sys-
tem. He was aware that it could be effected by a mea-
sure which would only require the exertion of the King's
prerogative, without being authorised by an Act of
Parliament—namely, by a revocation of the patents by
which the Navy and the Victualling Boards had been
created. He, however, had thought it more desi-
rable to apply to Parliament, in the first instance,
to obtain its sanction and recommendation of the measure
of remedy—namely, the abolition of the Navy and Vic-
tualling Bo irds, and to provide that those duties should
merge in, and he consolidated in the offices of the Board
of Admiralty, which should be impnwered at once to
take upon it the whole and sole charge of providing for the
victualling of the naval forces, the construction and repair
of ships of war, the outlays and application of all
.money
for the naval service, the dispensing it. to the different
of that service, and the appropriation of the
ent. duties
He
it
swhloeud
led sumsbe
;m
voted by yiate l)ar
y aiisi.veenrta'bl fore to all whichtliam
was aware that an objection woul.l be taken by Hon.
Members that it was too much to expect that all these
a
duties should be performed by a single office. He asserted
ln-g P.
that it was not too much to hope for if the distribution of
the labour required was proper and judicious.—(Loud
cheers.) On this topic he should refer the House to what
had been effected in a similar manner in respect to the
ouud thee
r
Board of Ordnance, which was considered the pattern
Board, which had been similarly remodelled, continued to
work admirably in all its branches, and was the result of
ouch
cs
luicacevs expectationai v
vu I
f(o,fr experiment,itvhee(i
ssubject,
tf,ieicttwhi Hche wasshid
found
to
propose,answern
,
that to five principal officers
should be confided the duties of those Boards us they
now stood. First, to tine Surveyor-General of the
• Navy was to be confided the charge of the labour
of the dock-yards, the building and repairing of
ships; next, to the Accountant-General of the Navy
was to be referred the charge of the accounts of the
different branches of the service, rendering all those ac-
counts by double entry; to the storekeeper was to be en-
trusted the duty of providing all the greater articles for
the use of the fleet; to the Superintendent of the Vic-
tualling Department was to be confided the duties now in-
cident to the 'Victualling Board ; and fifthly, to the Super-
intendent of the Medical Department was to be given the
controul over, and inspection of, all the hospitals for the

. -
Lord SANDON declared himself to be as anxious as any
Hon. Member in that House for the establishment of an
effective controul, and under the influence of that anxiety
he desired to know if there were any provision in the Bill
enabling Maeistrates to remove nuisances ?
Lord ALTHORP replied, that the powers which the
Bill would imeart to the Privy Council were so ample,
that it was needless to bestow further authority upon any
functionary whatever.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS doubted if there were any means
in Scotland to rare any fund from the counties or parishes.
The LORD ADVOCATE admitted that there would
be consideiteble difficu ty in makine. any local assessments
in Scotland, owing to the varied and' diversified manner in
which rates were enforced in that country, at the same
time that lie confessed he was not at the present moment
prepared with any proposition on the subject.
Sir R. PRICE was much disposed to question if any
eff ctive controul could be e-tablished over the money de-
rived free the public purse, for preventing the spread of
cent-lion. It was his opinion that the merchants and
landholders assembled in this great m• tropolis ought to
contribute Lrgely for the purpose which it was the object
of the Bill to effect. He greatly feared that if it were once
understood that the nation at large were to defray the ex•
pence of arresting the fearful calamity which then occupied
their attention, the consequence would be a wasteful ex-
penditure. He also feared that the declaration made by a
Right Hon. Gentleman near him (the Chief Secretary f.r
Ireland) might iu too many instances be received as a dis-
tinct pledge that in all cases which might arise complete
remuneration would be made. In his apprehension there
should be no remunerari ,n unless a case of necessity were
very clearly made out by the local authorities.
Sir T. FREMANTLE agreed fully with those Hon.
Members who thought that there would be great difficulty
in obtaining assistance of an efficient character from the
parish, or even the county rates.
Mr. A. BARING said, that cases might occur which
would he beyond the means of time parish rates ; and, on
the other hand, if people in general, and esp.cially parish
authorities, thought they could call indefinitely upon the
Ch incellor of the Exchequer, they would make such a
power a pretext fur burdening the nation at large with the
expenses of maintaining their own poor. The arrange-
ment which he thought afforded the best chance of success
was, that the immediate expense should he borne in those
quarters where by law it ought properly to rest, • and
where the means of the district proved indisputably insuf-
ficient; then, but nut till then, should the Privy Council
interpose their aid.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that though there had not
been any previous communication between him and his
Hon. Friend on the subject, yet there was not much dif-
ference in their s. ntiments. They need not go on argu-
ing extreme cases—it was enough that in principle there
was no important d•fferenre between them. A clause
might be introduced into the Bill, which would render it
necessary that before any HUMS were issued under the sanc-
tion of the Isrivy Council, there should be a properly au-
thenticated certificate, setting forth that the charges
sot4,ht to be defrayed were incurred for the prevention
or cure of cholera, and were in their nature extraordinary,
and had nothing to do with the usual maintenance of the
poor of the district from which the application proceeded.
To take an example, there was the parish of St. Paul's,
Deptford ; that was a parish which the inhabitants of the
eounty of Kent would naturally enough regard rather in
the nature of a metropolitan than of a county parish, and
he thought it evidently one of those cases which ought to
be provided for out of the national funds. For his part,
he did not at all see how it could be rendered imperative
upon vestries to make the necessary provision, and he
thought that precautions should be taken to avoid any-
thing like complex machinery. He was favourable to the
Bill being read a second time that night, and before the
tollowing day some improvements might be devised and
•noved in the Committee.

Lord ALTHORP was ready to acknowledge that many
of the suggestions which Lad been thrown out in the
course of the present conversation were worthy to be con-
•idered. He hoped that under the urgent circumstances
,f the case, the House would al!ow the Bill to be read a
first and second time that night, and be committed on the
'ollowing day. He did not anticipate that it would be
necessary to introduce any additional clauses.
Mr. GOULBURN wished that, with as little delay as
possible, some arrangem• nts should be made for making
advances to the several parishes requiting aid, for the ne-
..essity was too urgent to be trifled with.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, and it was
sought in accordingly and read a first time. On the
question that it be read a second time,
Mr. HUNT said he hid a question to put to the Noble
Lord opposite.— (Cries of" Oh, oh.") Gentlemen would
probably cry" Oii, oh," fast enough if they had the cho-
lera.—(A laugh.) He wished to know if it was intended
that the Bill should he printed?—(Oh.)
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow. _

Sir GEORGE CLERK, pursuant to notice, moved for
a Select Committee to inquire into the expenditure upon
certain .corks for the use of the navy at Sheerness, Ports-
mouth, and Plymouth. He observed that be had not in-
eluded in the Committee the Members of the late Admiralty
Board, as it was his wish that that they should be examined
as witnesses. —Motion agreed to.
NAVAL ADMINISTRATION.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose for the purpose of bring-
ing forward his motion on the subject of the Civil Admi-
nistration of the navy. The Hon. Baronet prefactd his
'notion with a few remarks, declaratory of his unwilling-
ness to take upon himself tre responsibility of interfering
with the effective condition or the stability of the Navy
of Great Britain ; at the same time he declared that he
was willing to incur the responsibility of bringing forward,
and pressing to ultimate completion, a measure which he
believed was well calculated to advance the prosperity of
the navy, and to rescue some of its most important
branches from a condition into which they had fallen, and
which was by no means calculated to do that department
of the public urrice credit. In bringing forward his plan
he was not actuated by any mistaken motives of specious
economy, nor did ne intend to do any thing which could
militate against their effective services, or which could
diminish in any way the superiority of the British Navy.
There were now, he need hardly observe, three Boards
for the conduct of the naval affairs of the kingdom, viz.
the Board of Admiralty, the Navy Board, and the
Victualling Board, all emanating from his Majesty's autho-
rity, and subsisting only by his patent. It happened,
however, that the most important of these Boards was so
circumstanced, that the members of which it w is com-
posed were constantly being changed, as it w is looked upon
to be necessary that, at every change of Administration,
those mernbers of Government who sat at the Admi-
ralty Board should likewise vacate office with their col-
leagues. Although a power always existed in his Majesty
to revoke the patents which lie had granted to the mein-
hers of the two minor Boards, yet it was riot looked upon
as necessary to change their members on a change of Ad-
ministration ; and the r suit of this arrangement at length
proved to be, that on any change of Administration there
was a perpetual under-current of resist .nce made by the
two minor Boards, the Navy and the Victualling, to the
measures of the Bo ird of Admiralty ; an opposition which
ultimately proved of grert detriment to the naval service of
the country. With this divided responsibility and uncero
tain authority over them, the two minor Boards became
disobedient to the Board of Admiralty and, although that
Board alone is responsible to Parliament for the conduct
of the naval affairs, and possessed nominally supreme con-
troul over the two other Boards, yet the members of it
found themselves thwarted and opposed by them in many
important matters. This state of affairs was at length
found extremely (lett imental to the public service, and the
many reports on naval affairs would furnish numberless
proofs of the successful resistance which the Naval and
Victualling Boards offered to the measures of the Admi-
ralty. The Hon. Baronet had observed that he would riot
take up the time of the House by entering on any elabo-
rate exposition of these evils ; but he would simply call
their attention to the statement contained in the Me-
moirs of a former Secretary to the Admiralty, Mr.
Pqlss who represents the Navy to be in a wretched
state at the period when the Stuart family were
again called to the throne of this realm, from which
it was revived on the appointment of the Duke of York,
afterwards James the Second, to the office of Lord High
Admiral of England, the good effects of whose manage-
ment were very speedily visible, and from which period
might be dated the commencement of that series of glorious
triumphs by which the career of the British Navy was so
eminently characterized. The House would be surprised
to learn that the Admiralty, which it was supposed was
the superintending and governing power over all the
expenditure of the Navy of this country, was deprived of
the controul which should be vested in it, by the manner in
which the accounts were kept in the subordinate Boards ;
insomuch so that were they in need of information as to the
amount of expenditure in these departments, and reference
was had to the books of the Navy Office, for instance, it
would be almost, if not altogether, impossible to derive the
desired information, because the b oks did not show under
what heads of expenditure the money granted from time
to time had been laid out. Hence it was vain in the
Lords of the Admiralty to expect to exercise any controui
over the possible misapplication of money in these Boards,

naval service, both at home and abroad. These five would
form the whole of the great officers for the civil department
of the naval service. Great inconvenience was experienced
at the present day from the officers and Commissioners of
the Boards. He would fain abolish 'lidding these ap-
pointments by the same authority and upon the same tenure
as those in the Admiralty, to whose controul it was sup-
posed they were always subject. He acknowledged he h
made this attempt at alteration with some hesitation, lest
it might he inferred that the officers to be appointed
should hold their situations by a tenure too precarisus.
This objection he proposed to remove by acquainting
the House it was not his intention they should here-
after be liable to any change, or to be displaced, ex-
cept their conduct was dissatisfactory to the Board
which presided over the whole. In this respect it would be
superior to even the Board of Ordnance, which was now,
on a change of Administration, lie le to experience, as a
consequence, a change in its principal officers, though ma-
tured to the duties of that office by long experience. Here,
however, that evil would cot he found to exist; for the
principals, as well as other officers of the Bord lie would
construct as the sole efficient Admiralty Board, would
hold their offices permanently during good behaviour. In
the present plan, they would observe, there would tie, in-
stead of four great officers, with the Chief, or First Lord
of the Admiralty, five—one superintending each head of
service, and having confided to him the complete manage-
ment of a public Board, with a secretary to take minutes
of its proceedings. By this system of an undivided con-
troul, and by simplicity in accounts, which he held to be
the life and soul of public business, he hoped ail rude
would be obtained which the moat sanguine would desire.
It would be, perhaps, objected that the effect of this
change would be to create an addition to the placemen in
that House. Considering how hard a battle he had fought
to diminish the placemen of this Board formerly, it would
be easily credited he was not insensible to this objection,
when he had contemplated the inc.ease of their number,
without intending to introduce a proviso that of the
six, including the chief, no more should he cap ible
of sitting i❑ Parliament than sat there already. He
might now state, without vanity he hoped, what were the
number of reductions he had made in this department of the
public set vice within the last year, and also what would lie
the number, should the House agree in his mutton, he
would be able to reduce within the next three months ;
and i❑ this sense he should be glad to give to the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite a specimen of the gleaning of re
trenchment with which he hoped he would be able to follow
up hie harvest when the Right Hon. Baronet was in office,
and he trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet would offer
no impediment to his project. Already there had b en
four Commissioners reduced, having salaries amounting
together to 4,000/. a year; together with 37 superior
officer'', whose salaries were 9,4701., 25 inferior officers at
2,2851. per annum, and eight clerks at 1,970/.—(Loud
cheers.) Under the prevent alteration he hoped to reduce
within the next three months, with their permission, net less
than five Commissioners, whose united salaries were 6,0001.
per annum ; three Secretaries at 2,600/., 20 more
superior officers at 10,9801. six inferiors at 440/., and
54 clerks at 11,9501. In this way there would be
a saving to the public, effected since his accession,
and a reduction in numbers of officers, accomplished
to the extent, in all, of nine Commissioners, at 10,000/.
a-year ; 66 superior officers, at 19,750/. a-year ;
making altoeeti er a reduction, in amount of salaries, to
the extent of 48,995/., or in round numbers of 49,000/
a year. He should imperfectly discharge his duty if, after
having dwelt so much upon the misappropriation in past
years of the votes of Parliament, of the supplies voted
for the public service, he did not propose what he con-
ceived would be an efficient prospective remedy. From
the opiniiin of the House, as he collected it the other
night, there was no unwillingness in any quarter to accede
to the arrangement that the financial year should determine
upon the 31st of Manila, instead, as heretofore, upon the
31st of December. It was impossible, from the nature
of the naval service, and the power of drawing money
possessed by officers in different quarters of the globe, that
the accounts could be audited up to that time. He con-
ceived that the practice of the Admiralty might be assimi-
lated, in this respect, to that of a merchant's counting-
house. He proposed that the Admiralty, as heretofore,
should audit the Treasurer's accounts at the close of the
financial year ; and, for the sake of passing his accounts,
should certify as heretofore ; hut that audit was
not to he an effectual audit, but only pro prina.
The account, as far as the Treasury was concerned,
was actually to he kept open until the 30th of No-
vember, thereby adopting so much of the French sys-
tem of accounts as was thought advisable. By the
30th of November all the vouchers would be returned
home. He proposed that the Admiralty should be directed,
upon the 30th of November, to transmit to the Board of
Audit the account so made up and closed on the 31st of
M och—that they should send the vouchers together with
the account; and that it should be the duty of the Audit
Board to lay upon the table of the House, upon the 31st
of January each year, a balance sheet, certified by them,
subdivided, according to the different heads of estimate ;
stating, under each head, the supply and expenditure, and
the surplus beyond the estimate. They would also attend
with a statement of any errors that had been discovered, or
any interrogatories that it might be necessary to put. It
would be impossible, in the short period between the 30th
November and the fat January, to administer a really
effectual audit. He conceived that for all Parliatnentary
purposes the audit he had proposed would be found to he
effectu il. It converted the responsibility of the repre-
sentatives of the Government from a nominal to a real
responsibility. It would be necessary to begin each year
by an explanation of errors in the former account, and
by answering interrogatories. The Hon. Member fur
Middlesex would, he had no doubt, make good use ot this
paper. He was not aware that he had any thing to add
to the statement he had already made. The plan he had
proposed reduced, to a great extent, a number of what he
conceived to lie unnecessary offices—it reduced the public
expenditure—it limited the number of placemen in the
House ot Commons—it provided a more effectual controul
over the expenditure of the public money—it afforded a
more scrupulous adherence to the strict principle of ap
propriation, as laid down by Act of Parliament—it was
a redemption of all the pledges he had ever given on
the opposite side of the House—it embodied all the
principles for which he and his friends had contended.
Notwithstanding all this, it he were not in his con-
science satisfied that it was well calculated to promote
the good of the service, and the efficacy of the Navy, none
of those considerations he had already stated should have
induced him to bring it forward. But entertaining
this opinion, he concluded by moving for leave to bring
in a Bill to amend the laws relating to the business of the
civil departments of the Navy, and to melee other regu-
lations for more effectually carrying on the duties of the
same.—( Loud cheere.)
Sir BYANI MARTIN said that the Hon. Baronet had
made it clear to him that the plan he proposed was likely
to produce public benefit. He had founded his plan upon
the disobedient anti insubordinate conduct of the Navy
Board, and their power to obstruct the public service.
Now no opposition had ever been made to any orders of
the Admiralty, except with the greatest respect, and from
an honest desire to point out errors. His invariable rule
had been, during the sixteen years he had served without
interruption, to state his opinion frankly, and without fear.
He had told the Board of Admiralty a hundred times—
" Your decision is contrary to my opinion, nevertheless,
I will endeavour to carry your wishes into execution." It
was true, as the Hon. Baronet had stated, that the works
at Woolwich had exceeded, by a considerable sum, the votes
of Parliament, but those works were of a peculiar nature,
and representations had been made that if the work had
not taken place, the whole front of the wall would have
fallen into the river. The practice invariably was to
vote a gross sum. He would not enter into a detail of
the sums called for by Mr. Rennie for the purpose of those
works. The Hon. Baronet had fairly and candidly stated
the cause of his (Sir Byam Martin's) being put out of
office—it was because he had, in the execution of his
duty, dared to speak his opinion to the First Lord of the
Admiralty. Had he remained i❑ office, he never would
have failed to have spoken his sentiments ; but when the
Hon. Baronet charged him with wilful and perverse dis-
obedience, he utterly denied it. It was as unfounded an
assertion as ever was made in the House. Every order to
m dee reductions was scrupulously fulfilled. The Hen.
Baronet wrote an angry letter to the N ivy Board, saying,
Why did you not obey such order? The answer was, be-
cause it was never given. He could prove every charge of
criminality to be untrue. It was stated to be a monstrous
instance of mismanagement that it was not instantly die-
covered that copper had been taken from the stores, and
that this arose from the want of a return of the number of
stores. It would cost several thousand pounds to ascertain
the amount—if it were done from time to time it would
obstruct the whole duties of the year.—(Sir JAMES GRA-
HAM smiled.) When the Hon. Baronet had had his
laugh out, he (Sir Byam Martin) would go on. The
book of prices was under the eye of the Surveyor of the
Navy, whose duty made him acquainted with the propriety
of the charges, and the articles were regulated according to
the market price. The Hon. Baronet's plan was made with
a view to economy, and Live:looked more important mat-
ters. In his opinion the Comptroller of the Navy ought to
have a seat at the Board of Admiralty, end not be subject
to political changes. Who was to cluck the proposed enor-
mous expenditure of money, the Accountant-General or

the Admiralty ? Was the Accountan'-Gcnrel to be
sending messengers up and down the Strand with large
sums of money, to obtain the sanction of the Admiralty ?
A messenger might walk off with the money. Was the
Surveyor of the Navy to be continued ?—(S:r James GRA-
HAM answered in the affirmative.) Then he (Sir B. Martin)
asked why Sir Robert Se.ppings had been dismissed his Me •
jesty's service ? A more diligent, faithful, honest, public
servant never existed. For 50 years he had devoted him
self to the public service, and had now received notice of
dismissal. His enemies were at work to prejudice him in
the eyes of his superiors, but his name would be remote
tiered and respected when those who had tradeced his dirt-
' racter had sunk into insignificance. The country was in-
debted to him for saving thousands of lives. Other offi-
(-era feared a similar dismissal—the sooner they knew their
fate the better. When the Bill was introduced he would
give it an impartial and unprejudiced consideration—where
he found it likely to promote the public interest, it should
hive his cordial support, but where it was likely to
have a contrary tendency, he must give it a decided op-
position.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN apologized to the Hon.
Gemtleman who spoke last for not having risen before him.
He had had a seat at the Admiralty Board for twelve
years. Daring that time a vast number of changes had
taken place, in which the Navy Board had not always gone
along with him, but was bound to say that their opi-
nion was always honest and valuable. They had stopped
those who, on first coming into office, had thought they
coul I make improvements, and had prevented them from
going too tar. It was right that the Admiralty should hove
t'•at drag chain to impede its too hasty progress. He ex-
onerired the Navy Board from all blame as to not having
obeyed orders, when the measures bad been properly in-
vestigated and decided upon. The Hon. Member then re-
ferred to the establishment at Weevil. It had been sug-
gested that, as the victualling department at Portsmouth
was in various place., it might be concentrated at Weovil,
and that arrangement received the sanction of the High Ad-
tuiral. It wee intended to sell the premises at Portsmouth
to defray tie expense. The matter was mentioned in
the House, and was nut objected to. Subsequently a part
of the premises were taken for barracks, and consequently
the expense was not defrayed. He was always a great ad-
vocate for uniting the Victualling and the Navy Board.
He thought that the auditing the accounts by the Commis-
sioners of Audits would attain all the objects which the
Hen. Baronet proposed. These five officers would be the
real executive officers of the service, but they would have
no responsibility. If the Right Hon. Baronet compared
his plan with the Ordnance plan, he would see that, in that
particular, his plan wis a failure. These officers were to
remain fixtures, whilst the officers of the Admiralty were
changeable. Were the Right Hon. Baronet to carry his
plans into execution, he would find, in the course of four
or five years, that they would not work well; but he (Sir
Gee rge Cockburn) would give his utmost attention to the
Bill when it was brought in; and he would be glad if he
should find his views were to prove erroneous.
Sir THOMAS 'FROUBRIDGE felt it his duty to
corroborate the statement made by the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Naval Administration of the
country. Ile believed that the jealousy between the Navy
Boatel and the Boatel of Admiralty had often proved
detrimental to the public service ; and of this very many
instances were upon record. He held in his hands a
leti4fe4.vritten many years ago by Lord Rodney to the Earl
of Chatham, which threw considerable light upon the sub-
ject. In this letter, extracts of which he would now
read to :he House, Lord Rodney advised the Earl of Chat-
ham upon several important points. In the first instance,
he gave his admonition to the Noble Earl never to suffer
on inferior Beard to dictate to him what he ought
to do, nor to permit any Admiral or Ciptain to dare
to dispute or disobey any orders issued by the Lord
High Admiral.—(A laugh.) He held the Navy Board
to he an inferior Board ; it had never carried its point,
and he trusted it never would. The Board of Admi-
ral y represented the King and the State, and all sub-
ordinate Boards should be under its contraul. The Navy
Board ought to contract for all stores and to lay their ac-
counts before the Admiralty twice a year, for in their con-
tracts they might otherwise he influenced by friendship, or
by private motives. Lord Rodney then proceeded to ad-
vise the Noble Earl that all the patronage should be kept
in the hands of the Admiralty, for then all officers of high
rank wenild look up to th it Board.—(A laugh.) " For
God's s ,ke," said the Gallant Lord (Rodney), " never
suffer your mind to be prejudiced against any officer till
you are quite sure of the case—(Cheers)—and be always
armed te•ainst any attempt to traduce a brother officer."
He thought the letter, from which he had read extracts to
the House, fully corroborated the whole statements made
by the First Lord of the Admiralty, and he had, therefore,
felt himself bound to read them. He should have another
opportunity of stating his opinions upon the subject to
the House, but he could not sit down without plying a
tribute to his Majesty's Government. He thought that the
Bill now brought in made reductions which fully re-
deemed die pledge that had been given by Ministers to the
country. The head of the present Government was second
to no man, and assisted as he was in the other House by
the talents of Lord Bromtharn—(A laugh from the Opposi-
tion benches)—he was entitled to the general confi•lence.
Sir G. CLERK said that as the changes now contem-
plated were of the greatest extent and highest importance.
it was due to himself, and to the naval service, that he
should require the fullest explanation of every particular.
He felt it difficult to give any opinion upon a plan so ex-
tensive, and which had been introduced in such a manner
to the House. He felt disposed to assist Government in
all the details of their measures, although he thought that
many of the details were calculated to increase the difficul-
ties they were meant to obviate, whilst others were alto-
gether iineractic.ble. He (Sir George Clerk) denied that
the Admiralty Board was thwarted by other Boards. The
Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the A lmiralty, had
charged the Navy Board with not having expended, by
nearly one million, the sums that had been voted to it; but
he would ask the Hon. Baronet whether any of the naval
arsenals had been found deficient of stores, and whether he
wag not now availing himself of the money that had been
saved, and was thus enabled to come down to the
House with diminished estimates. There had been
saved out of previous votes the sum of 1,000,0001. This
the Hen. Baronet had found in the Exchequer.
and with this he was carrying on the public service. Re-
ductions in the Kin's yards had been carried on to such
an extent that the Hon. Baronet had been obliged to in-
' crease the number of hours which the men were accus-
tomed to work. He conceived that it would he better to
• consolidate the Navy and Victualling Boards, retaining the
; Comptroller and the Secretary to carry on the correspen-
dence. The Admiralty Board would not be able to carry
• on the duties of the Navy and Victualling Boards, even
for one week, although the immense correspondence be-
tween the Victualling
and Navy Boards and the Admiralty
I would then be so much reduced. He did not think the
details of the Hon. Baronet at all satisfactory, and they
ought, in his opinion, to be investigated by a Committee.
r He would ask, was it intended to dismiss Sir Robert Sep-
pings ? He supposed not, as be saw no provision for filling
f up his place.
i Here Sir J. GRAHAM nodded dissent across the table.

Sir GEORGE CLERK continued. Sir Robert Sep-
pings was a person whose fame was known all over
Europe, and all other nations had adopted his improve-
ments on naval architecture. He should be glad to find
that it was the intention to retain Sir Robert Seppings in
his office. There could he no objection, in his opinion, to
transfer the audit of the navy accounts to the General Board
of Audit, for at present the audit to which the accounts
were submitted was a mere matter of form. The Hon.
Baronet concluded by saying that he would willingly lend
his support to the measure proposed for auditing accounts;
but at the same time he must say say that he was afraid
the reduced number of officers would not be able to transact
the business.
Captain YORKE Lore testimony to the great merits of
Sir R Seppings ; and though his successor, Mr. Symonds,
had constructed some vessels of great merit, be did not con,
sider the Admiralty justified in the change they had made.
Sir ROBERT PEEL was glad to hear of the redue'
tions proposed by the Right lion. Baronet; they were
certainly very extensive ; and if they could be carried into
effects they would do him greet credit. He could not go
with him, however, in all his plans. He was ready to
agree to one of hie pri,ciples, that, as the chief of tbr.
department was answerable for the conduct of those under
him, he should have the power of dismissing them or
retaining them, accordita-; to his choice.
Sr JAMES GRAHAM had laid it down that the
chief officier should not have the power to remove those
under him " quam diu se bens gesserit ;" that was hie
principal.
Sir ROBERT PEEL was ready to agree to the prin.
cip'e that the power of the Admiralty should be exclu.
sive; but, it the Right Hon. Baronet was to act on the
principle he laid down, how did it happen that, under rt
new Adnid:alty, Sir Robert Seppings and others had been
removed, without any charge of blame ?
Captain BERKELEY said the consolidation of the
Admiralty and Navy 13 ,arcs would he regarded by the
Navy as the greatest Wen.
Mr. HUME eapteased his siaisfaction at the statement
and pl in of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The new
appeared to hint most excellent, and he believed would be
effective in reducing the exo.oditurr.
Mr. CROKEII, after paying ever/ attention to t"