The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-31 00:00:00

IRISH REFORM HILL.

Oa the motion of Lord MELBOURNE, the Irish Helot to
Bia was read a third time.

On the question that the Bill do pass,
The Duke of WELLINGTON suggested some verbal

amendments in the clause relative to freemen and free•
holders in cities and boroughs, which were agreed to.
The Earl of RODEN suggested art amendment to the
effect, that barristers for holding courts for the registration
of voters should be appointed by the judges in Ireland la
the same manner as they were by the judges in England.
Lord MELBOURNE objected to any amendment ?f
that kind, on the ground that the state of Ireland was dif-
ferent from that of England, and that which was 0'
pedient for England might not be expedient for Ireland.
The Etrl of RODEN would propose an amendment in
the clause that related to the oaths of voters, so as to con.-
tinue these oaths exactly as they were fixed by the Act
of 1829.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the only motive
for passing the Bill as it at present stood was to save the
Judges from imputations of party feeling in the selections
of barristers which they might make.
_

After a few words from the Elrl of Longford. the
Marquis of Clanricarde, Lord Gosford, the Marquis Of
Westmeath, the Earl of Harrowby, and the Duke of Rich-
mond, the House divided—

For the or ginal motion
For the amendment
Majority l2
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
RUSSIAN DUTCH LOAN.
Lord GODERICH, in moving the second reading of
the Bill, proceeded to state the circumstances under which
the obligation on the part of this country was contracted.
The King of the Netherlands had stipulated to make some
return to the Allies for the sacrifices they had made in his
behalf, and the henefi.s he had received at their hands; and
these, so far as payments in money were concerned, the Allies
had agreed to hand over to his Imperial Majesty. The King
of the Netherlands accordingly, by the treaty of 1815, to
which Great Britain was a party, bound himself to pay to
the house of Hope, in conjunction with this country, cer-
tain sums of money due to it by the Emperor of Rus-
sia ; and, likewise bound himself, in conjunction with
this country, to make a series of payments to Russia,
which was to cease in case the Belgian territories should
be severed from or pass away from the dominion of the
House of Orange. The word in the French was
soustraites, but it had been translated by the words he
had just used. But in addition to the treaty, there were
two secret articles—by one of which it was provided, that
if any portion of the Belgian territories was permanently
severed or passed away from the dominion of Holland, an
equivalent portion of the obligation to which this country
was a party should cease and determine; and by a second
article it was provided, that if any temporary severance
should take place by the violence of an enemy, the par
ment should not cease until the severance which had takett
place should have continued for a period of twelve month'.
The events, however, which took place in 1830
altered some of the circumstances belonging to
this arrangement. After these events it was undoubted!):
true that the specific terms of the original contract did
not strictly and legally apply, because a severance hid ac'
tually taken place, and the Belgian provinces bad passel
away from the dominion of the House of Orange. At the
same time it was quite obvious that, in December, 1830,
nothing had occurred which should have prevented then'
from paying the amount of the debt then due. He thought'
too, that the same reasoning applied to the similar pay'
tnent made in 1831. But, then, undoubtedly an event
had afterwards taken place, which materially altered the
state of affairs. They had then to consider how far the
original ciicumstances of the treaty were in force, the
King of Belgium having been acknowledged by England
and consequently a severance of the Belgian territories
from Holland having de facto taken place. It was that
felt, that at the end of twelve months, according to the
literal construction of the treaty, his Britannic 11Iajesti
would have been entitled to claim that the payment
to
Russia should cease. And this it was that led to the con'
vention ef November 1831, in which this country under.
took to continue the payment, although the legal condi-
tions of the original bargain had ceased to be binding upe°
it. His Majesty's servants had felt, that in equity and
good faith, they were bound to continue their payments
under all the circumstances; they had, therefore, reconv
mended that new obligation in November, 1831 ; but the
Convention was not then ratified. Now, however, iC
was ratified, and was consequently binding on both pet'
ties ; and therefore his Majesty's Ministers came to Pat'
hament with this Bill. The Noble Viscount thee
moved the second reading of the Bill.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said the real question
before their Lordships was, the propriety of all the Or
ments up to the last period. He concurred in the state'
went made by the Noble Lord ; but he denied that up t 0
tte last moment Russia had a legal right to the payments
agreed upon under the treaty of 1815. In his opinion, i°
was doubtful if the right existed in December, 1830. A;
that period both the King of England and the Emperor °f
Russia hail agreed that Belgium should be independent of
Holland ; and if it were to be so, surely it must have
passed away according to the terms of the treaty from the
dominion of Holland. Well, at a later period there earn°,
to be this transaction—Prince Leopold was acknowledged
by this country as King of Belgium, and his Majesty had
been even pleased to send an Ambassador to attend hut"
which established the point beyond doubt or dispute, that
Prince Leopold WriB, according to the law of England'
King of Belgium. Now, then, the question was, did the
law of England enable Ministers to pay the money ?
was to be decided in the first instance. He fully admitted
the claim of Russia ; but he maintained that the case
which had arisen was an omitted case. The Act cone'
quently did not and could not apply to it, and therefore
Government could not have paid the money according t°
law.—(Cheers.) They might have been right to pay the
money. He would not dispute that ; but having so paid it;
they ought to have come down to Parliament and asken,
for a Bill of Indemnity.—(hear.) For now he would
ask, if we were bound to pay, was not the King of the
Netherlands equally bound to pay ? Did not both parties
stand precisely on the same ground ? But that Monaral'
said it was an omitted case—that he was not bound by the
treaty, and that he would not pay. It was impossible to con'
sider the measure now brought forward, without advert'
ing to the manner in which the system pursued by bi°
Majesty's Ministers was carried on, and what that systetn
was. He understood that the King of the Netherlands
was called on and menaced, in case of his not complying
with that call, to sign a treaty for the separation of the
greater part of his territories from the dominion of the
House of Orange, and for various arrangements which be
conceived woufd be most injurious to the interests of hi;
ancient kingdom and of his family; and that this bad
come to pass, not in consequence of any mediation ar
arbitration which he himself asked for, but by the corn'
island of five Sovereigns, imposed upon him contrary 1e
his inclination, and, as he believed, to the interests of hi,
;
country and his family. Now this was one of our ancien
allies, in favour of whom we had expended blood a°d
treasure, that was thus treated by his Majesty's Servant',
—(Cheers.) if their Lordships would look to the wbalf
course of the transaction, they would see that the King
the Netherlands was pressed to the signing of this treaty'
so disagreeable to him, not by the Five Powers in the e-0111 '
degree, but by two of those Powers, one of which or
England. The other three, though they desired t''ea
execution of the treaty, yet adopted some reserve; a°
while they wished his Majesty to sign, were desirous
witnessing the modification of certain olijectionall'e
points. Yet the ether two Powers were determined, rt
would si em, to enforce the treaty as it stood, even at the,
expense of war.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted to say that
it was the Councils of this country which were most inve
mical to the King of the Netherlands.--(Hear.) By
treaty it was provided that the King of Holland shoal
;
open the navigation of his canals in communication %vita
the Scheldt, the Meuse, and the Rhine. Now he
seen the details of the negociations (and if the Noble Lora
would produce the documents, their Lordships would see
that what he would state was a fact) that France and the
Powers of the Rhine felt no disposition to press the 104
of the Netherlands on a point which he considered ogee
tial to his interests—..a
Point, moreover, which was Or,:
rounded with great difficulty one in which Great Britain
had no interest, and from which even Belgium could de'
live no benefit, because she could not navigate the Illti°6
without the permission of the Powers of the Rhine, „
less by paying the duties demanded front strangers.
sides, there were other things demanded from the Ding
which it was hard to grant, but which lie did not, never'
theless, refuse—such as the ceding of certain of the ''irf
cieut territories of his House, the conceding the right cc
fishing, and other thing.. He was not disposed to ague
to all these things demanded, but he was willing to Into
every concession consistent with his own reason and tj,
independence of his country. But he was, notwithstand,
ing, to he forced to sign a treaty which was on all
admitted to be übjectionahle—to need correction and revh,
",
Rion in the first instance, and then he was to mist to 4
chance of having it afterwards modified to meet his wi''!fr
by the Powers which forced hitn to sign it. He Rub Obis
red accordingly to their Lordships, that, connected as
convention was with the system of policy pursued by lieu
vernment in Europe, their Lordships should not be °a ere
upon to decide upon it, as it were, blind-fold. They Ivo
entitled to some explanation upon a subject so impart_athe
The system acted on, he maintained, could only lead this,,
injury of British interests, and those of all our best all'olol,
—( Hear, hear.) Look to what it had already led-- ,lior
to the state of confusion to which two of our ancient
in the Peninsular were likely to be reduced.—(llear'sible
Its the next place, let their Lordships imagine A Pc"
_tib.
case—that the Kiog of the Netherlands would refuse

r

mission to the tern's proposed, and that the efforts to en-
force it should not prove successful. Suppose they should
not be able to induce the King to surrender Antwerp.
Was this to be followed by the march of a French army
to Antwerp?—(Cheers.) Let him not be misunderstood as
protesting against peace and amity with France, he knew
that it was necessary to the peace of Europe; bnt he would
say, that if it had not been for our'present union with that
nation, these dangers would not he to apprehend, and these
positive evils would not exist.—(Hear.) Were it not for
this union, a French force would never have been landed
on the flank of the Austrian army at Ancona, nor would
we witness that confusion amongst our ancient allies, to
preserve them from which we had sacrificed so much
blood and treasure.—( Hear.) He hoped, for these rea-
sons, that the Noble Lords would state their general system
of foreign policy.
Lord GODERICH said, that consenting to this Act
would not by any means pledge their Lordships to the fo-
reign policy of Ministers. The only object of the Act was
to enable them to continue a series of payments which had
been interrupted, and which the Noble Duke admitted
they were in equity hound to continue. For this reason
be did not consider himself bound at that moment to give
any explanation of the foreign policy of Government.
They were asked why they had not asked for a Bill of
Indemnity ? When they had, from full consideration,
reason to suppose they had not violated the spirit of the
law, he conceived they would have acted unwisely in call-
ing upon Parliament for a Bill of Indemnity.
Lord WYNFORD must confess that he had a different
opinion of the merits of the case from that entertained by
the Noble Duke. The Noble Duke thought that, in
equity, the Emperor of Russia had a claim to the money
in question. The Noble Duke might be, and no doubt
was, in possession of facts which justified him in that
opinion ; but he (Lord Wynford) was not in possession
of any such facts; and he maintained that there were no
Parliamentary grounds for such payment. As to the
question of legality, it was, in his opinion, impossible for
any man, after Belgium was acknowledged to be separate
from Holland, and after (as his Noble Friend the Noble
Duke bad observed) we had sent an accredited Minister to
Belgium, to maintain that the continuance of the payments
was legal. The Noble and Learned Lord here entered
into an examination of the terms of the treaty of 1815, by
which it was provided that the payments should continue
to be made ,to Russia until Belgium was severed from
Holland, or passed to any other Power. The instant that
Belgium passed from Holland, the treaty was at an end.
Lord Castlereagh had declared (and he used that Noble
Lord's very words) that if Holland should be separated in
any manner whatever from Belgium, from that moment
the payments must cease. What had Holland done with
respect to the subject? She had long ago refused pay-
ment. Why then were we bound to continue it?
The Duke of WELLINGTON considered the Emperor
of Russia had an equitable claim upon this country,
founded on all the treaties since the treaty of peace, down
to the last treaty, which treaty, however, he excluded from
that observation. He considered that Lord Castlereagh,
in binding Russia to the defence of Holland, had done a
great public service. Here were the two countries of Hol-
land and Belgium separated, whether right or wrong,
Principally by the interposition of this country. That be-
ing 80, he wished to know how Russia had forfeited
her claim ?
Lord WYNFORD explained.
The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that his Noble
sod Learned Friend put the question, and justly, on the
construction of tl e treaty of 1815. The question was
whether that treaty continued to be obligatory after recent
events. The expressions of the treaty under notice, whe-
ther considered in the French or in the English, were
clear. In English they were " severed or passed from ;s'
in French, by the use of the reflected verb, they were still
stronger, being not " until.. they had withdrawn them-
selves," but "until they should be withdrawn." Even
!'severed " must mean severed by somebody ; and " passed
. must mean to some other Power. The case was
undoubtedly ca us ornissus, but then it was one of those in
Which the exception confirmed the rule. The question
could not be better understood than by supposing that a
person who was to receive an annuity of one hundred
pounds a year on the event of his not going abroad, had
yet been forced by those who granted it to go abroad
against his will, and still claimed the payment of the an-
nuity. It could not, under such circumstances, be con-
tat led for an instant that the payment of the annuity was
voided by the going abroad. The Noble and Learned
Lord (Wynford) had in the course of his speech alluded
to the declarations of Lord Castlereagh ; but it was plain
that Lord Castlereagh contemplated merely the prevention
of the union of the Netherlands and France, the purpose,
indeed, for which the treaty was concluded, and not the
continued sovereignty of the House of Orange over Bel-
gium, the point for which the Noble and Learned Lord
had contended. There was a view of the case which had
not entered into the contemplation of the Noble Duke,
but which was of no inconsiderable importance. Holland
had lost Belgium, not with her own consent, and England
and Russia, two of the parties to the treaty, were not only
the aseentim
ng but, he might also add, the assisting parties
to the severance ; and here again he might revive the
likeness to the case of the annuitant. It had been asked
Why, if there was a convention pending, Parliament had
not been made acquainted with it ? He believed that no-
thing would have been more inconsistent with the whole
course of diplomatic proceedings, or more calculated to put
an end to all honourable negotiation, than the production
of a treaty not concluded for the mere purpose of meeting
a factious objection. Again, it bad been said, if there
Was no error in the payment, why was it that a separate
Convention had been considered necessary? But did their
Lordships never hear of doubts being entertained on one
side, or of the necessity of a declaratory act to remove
them?
Was it not possible that Russia might entertain
doubts which it became necessary to remove ? The whole
arrangement was in effect precisely in conformity with the
spirit of the treaty of 1815, which looked to the necessity
of preventing Belgium from being united with France, and
as such it was considered. He would not conclude his
observations without alluding to the expression of an opi-
nion which had dropped from the Noble Duke--au opi-
nion he had not heard for the first time—that it was the
duty of this country to cultivate the friendship of France,
but that the best way to do so was not to form alliances with
her. He agreed with the Noble Duke on the propriety of
cultivating the friendship of France ; but as to the ques-
tion of abstaining from alliances, it was an abstract pro.
position, which he neither affirmed nor denied, as there
were many circumstances connected with it which must
be argued according to the position in which they were
placed. The Noble and Learned Lord concluded by de-
fending the course pursued by the Law Officers of the
Crown.

The Eirl of ABERDEEN said, that the declaration of
Lord Castlereagh had been referred to. Undoubtedly the
case which had occured—namely, the consent of England
to the payment of the money to Russia after the separa-
tion of Holland and Belgium, and even although war should
arise between the parties—was a casus omissus ; but he
would also take leave to say that it was casus omittendus,
for that Noble Lord never contemplated it, nor, he be-
lieved, never would have assented to it. The Noble Earl
then proceeded to complain of Holland being depressed
for the purpose of building up Belgium ; he did not wish
to say anything condemnatory of the King of Belgium ;
but, from his very situation, that Prince of necessity was
more disposed towards France than England ; and there-
fore, in that point of view, he (Lord Aberdeen) was pre-
Pared to say that he would sooner have seen the Due de
Nemours made King of Belgium than Prince Leopold.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
he Committed to-morrow (this day).
Their Lordships then adjourned at Eleven o'clock.

"The Life and Correspondence of Sir DAVID
BAIRD Will, we understand, appear shortly, involving a
history of his military exploits in India and in the Penin-
sula duriag the last war. The Correspondence will con-
sist of many interesting letters from the Duke of WEL-
LINGTON and other Military Commanders to Sir DAVID
AI D,
relating to the army. The work is preparing for
press by a gentleman of high literar•
reputation,
whose productions have hitherto been ..reatly appreciated
by the public."--Morning Chronicle. y
The Cork Reporter announces among the
arrivals at the Hibernian Hotel, Killarney, that of " FRE-
DERICK Count LPLITGIRLUSYSINEGDAIDAG, Copenhagen."
How this gentle name of the Count will puzzle the Irish
Waiters !
THE COURT MAGAZINE, No. 2, EDITED
BT THE HON. Dias. NORTON, just published, contains the
following original contributions :-1. Memoir of Lady
Grey of Groby, by John Burke, Esq. (with a finely en-
graved portrait)-2. A Dialogue, by Lord Morpeth-3.
The Conscience-stricken Cuirassier, by Lord Nugent-1.
The Younger Brother's Prayer-5. The Pole, a Tale, by
the Author of Frankenstein-6 Dragonetti, by G. H.
Counter, Esq.-7 Song of the Gascon Peasant, by Vis-
count Newark—S. Infancy, by the Author of Woman's
Love-9. My First Session, by a Member of Parliament--
10. Kate Bouverie, a Tale in prose, by Mrs. Norton-11.
American Literature, by C. m
`Farlane, Esq.-12. The
Statue, by the Author of the Island Bride-13. A Frog-
inent, by H. B. Sheridan, Esq.-14. Negroland, by Mrs.
Lee, formerly Mrs. Bowdich—and 15. Jett D'Esprit, by
the late T. Sheridan, Esq.