The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-29 00:00:00

arrived from Paris that it was the intentionof the Emperor
of the French to reduce his armaments both by sea an
land. Well, that is excellent news, and its value depends
entirely upon the manner in which that policy is carried
out. I should not have noticed that, considering that all
the information which we had was merely by telegram, had
not a Minister called our attention to it in his place at the
moment he rose, and evidently with the intention of in-
fluencing the opinion of the house. I think myself—in-
deed, I ventured to make the observation the other night—
that it is of great importance that the armaments of the
great Powers should be reduced. (Hear.) I did not when
1 made that observation lay claim to any originality. I was
not aware at the time that I was at all trenching upon the
peculiar manor of the hon. gentleman the member
or Birmingham. He informed me afterwards with
great exultation that the proposition to reduce armaments
after war was an original principle in politics invented by
himself. (Laughter.) I observed that articles of peace were
never yet signed, or at least no peace was ever yet con-
cluded, without members of this house pressing upon the
Government to avail themselves of the opportunity of re-
ducing their armaments, and, knowing that our predeces-
sors in this assembly for 150 years, to my knowledge, recom-
mended that policy, I certainly was astonished that the hon.
member for Birmingham, although he spoke, I must say,
pith considerable courtesy of me as his pupil—(a laugh)—
should have taken that opportunity of informing the house
that lie himself was the inventor of that policy. (Laughter.)
1 remeanber some very absurd observations made by the hon.
gentleraan. 10 years ago upon this subject, in the course of
which he maintained that peace was the natural state of
man in the present day, because the commercial principle
was stronger than the political, and in which he said that
France could never go to war again in consequence of the
alteration of the tenure of land in that country, there being
then about seven millions and a half of proprietors. I re-
minded him then—in the year 1848—that the same tenure
obtained in France under the Republic and under the first
Empire ; that there were then also about seven millions of
proprietors, but that did not prevent thewrenah_ going to
war. He then expressed other opinions, ich I had hoped
for his own sake were quite forgotten, and therefore I shall
not now touch upon them ; but when peace is announced
by a Minister, as it was announced in this house, a peace
between two great military monarchies of Europe, espe-
cially at a time when the taxation of this country has been
greatly increased in consequence of the adoption of very
necessary means of defence, there was nothing very wild
—there was nothing, I think, very unwise in suggest-
ing that our ally should take this oportunity of esta-
blishing in the eyes of Europe, and especially of this
country, the sincerity of his friendship for England—
which I, for one, have no wish in any way to doubt—
tar the reduction of his armaments. It seemed to me
to be a very natural policy, a policy which would pro-
mote the EmpeFor's own interests, and one which, if he en-
tertain it, he will, I have no doubt, carry out with sincerity.
The Emperor ought, however, to understand if that is the
policy which the English Parliament wishes him to adopt,
that if he does adopt and pursue it with sincerity we are
prepared to respond to it in a reciprocal spirit. He ought
clearly to understand that we suggest that policy from no
wild sentiment, but in a plain business-like manner ; and
that if he agrees to it we, on our part, are prepared to carry
it out in a business-like manner. But then we must know
what the reductions are. (Hear.) We must see that re-
ductions are being made in his forces, as clearly as he will
know what are the reductions which we are making. He
must not suppose that it is because what is called the peace
principle is prevalent in this house that such a policy is re-
oomroended, because if he thought that he would have the
feeling which some attribute to him, but which I do not be-
lieve he entertains ; he might then treat the House of Com-
mons like children, and hope that by telegrams made up of
unmeaning phrases he could influence the policy of this
country. That great Prince is too sensible a man to enter-
tain such an opinion for a =omen; ; but, as the question has
been introduced to us by the Secretary of State, I think
there should be no mistake as to the opinion of the House
of Commons upon the reduction of armaments by the Em-
peror of the French. The reduction of armaments is a na-
aural and proper policy, and one which we may fairly ex-
pect to be followed when peace is concluded. It is a policy
which this country would hail with satisfaction, and which
would give us that security which, under such circum-
stances, our ally might be expected to give ; but it must be
a real, absolute, undoubted reduction of armaments—(hear)
—and not a mere exchange of fine, vague phrases. If that
is, as I believe it is, the sincere policy of the Emperor, it
will be met with equal sincerity on our part ; it will put an
end to great misconceptions as to the views and conduct
of that Prince, which I, for one, am more than willing
to believe have no foundation whatever ; and then,
indeed, we may regard as an event which has effected
some good for humanity even this war, which, though it
has been a bloody has been a brief one, which has brought
many persons to their senses, and may tend to restore and
establish a good understanding between England and
France. (Cheers.)
Mr. BOWYER said that no speech could have been
more calculated than that of the noble lord (J. Russell)
to prevent any advantage arising from a conference. He
had no confidence in the present Government with regard
to this matter, for they had been for years connected with
the revolutionary party in Italy. He believed they were
equally without the confidence of the Continent—even of
the Liberal party there. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord
said that a difficulty arose because Sardinia had a constitu-
tional form of Government. What did the noble lord mean
by that ? Did he mean to say that because the Government
of Sardinia was constitutional that Sardinia should have it
all her own way at the conference ? Federation was said
to have something to do with liberty of conscience. But
federation had no more to do with that than it had to do
with the paving and lighting of the various federal States.
That was a matter for each State to settle for itself. The
war broke out in consequence of the breach of international
law on the part of Sardinia. Sardinia received deserters
from the Austrian army contrary to international law, and
contrary to treaties existing between the two countries, and
that was the real reason why Austria went to war. With
respect to the duchies, they found the Sardinian minister
at Florence encouraging a most disgraceful revolt, and
encouraging, through the secret societies, officers and sol-
diers to violate the oaths which they had taken to their
Sovereign. (Hear, hear.) Neither was it true to say that
the Grand Duke left his duchy in the way that James 11.
left England. He was compelled to depart, and the Sardi-
nian Minister was placed at the head of a provisional
government. The noble lord had told them that Bologna
wished to be united to Sardinia. (No.) He (Mr. Bowyer)
could not believe that statement. Bologna, under the Pope,
was exempt from the conscription and lightly taxed, and
was the seat of a university which was closely connected
with the Papal court. United to Sardinia, she would have
the conscription, and would be heavily taxed, whilst, de-
prived of her university, she would be much in the same
situation as Oxford, should such a deprivation happen to
the latter city. Under these circumstances, he could not
believe that the Bolognese wished to be separated from the
States.
' Pa
Lord J. RUSSELL—I never said that Bologna
wished to be united to Sardinia.
Mr. BOWYER—Surely the noble lord could not have
contemplated Bologna setting up as an independent state for
herself, and it should be remembered that Signor d'Azeglio
had already been accredited to these states as commissioner
from the King of Sardinia to foment revolution andlevy ar-
maments against the rightful sovereign, He did not believe
in the ovation to d'Azeglio. It was easy to create a mob and
to call it an ovation, nor neither did he think there was any
foundation for the noble lord' s funny story about the cardinal.
It seemed to be what was vulgarly called a cock-and-bull
story. (A laugh.) He (Mr. Bowyer). denounced the whole
of the proceedings of Sardinia as a violation of the law of
nations, anti thought that if they were to be held good, Vattel
and Grotius and Puffendorf must be superseded, and an
entirely new treatise written. The noble lord never lost an
opportunity of stigmatising the Roman Government as the
worst in the world. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He (Mr.
Bowyer) asserted that to be a calumny, and asserted that that
Government had been an improving one for many years—
(laughter)—that it was a good Government—(continued
laughter)--that it was a progressive Government. (Great
laughter.) One fact he had to tell the right hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that was that the Pope
had got a surplus revenue. (Much laughter.) In conclu-
sion, he implored the noble lord to take no part in the con-
gress, which in no way concerned the interests of this coun-
try. He believed that the greatest Italian name was that of
the Pope, and the Pope had been the head of the Guelphs
in former times' who formed the Italian party. Pope Julius
11. said to the Ambassador of -Venice, " Only two really
Italian things remain, your ducal cap and my tiara." The
tiara was now gone. (Loud laughter and cries of Hear, hear.)
He meant the ducal cap, andthe Pope was allthat remained
of the ancient nationality of Italy. fie was, therefore, the
fittest head' that could be thought of for an Italian confede-
ration.
Lord PALMERSTON—I refrained from answering at
once the questions put by theright hon. gentleman opposite,
because I was unwilling to interpose between the house and
the gentleman who has just spoken, knowing as I do the
strong interest he tekes in at least one part of Italy, and in
one of the governments which unfortunately rule in that
country. (Laughter,) In my opinion the statement of my.
noble friend was perfectly clear as to the views of the Go-
vernment; but the right hon. gentleman opposite wants
still to know 'whether the powers which were neuter in the
war, including, of course, the British Government, made
any proposal to Austria of terms less favourable than those
which were subsequently voluntarily conceded by France at
Villafranca. My noble friend stated that no proposal had
been made by the British Government, in so far as he was
aware of, or by any of the neutral powers, but the right
hon. gentleman seemed to have pretty accurate information
from some quarter as to what really passed, and that which
did pass was as he imagines it, with one exception. At one
period of the war the French ambassador gave my noble
friend a small paper, upon which certain terms of arrange-
ment were written out very generally, asking my noble
friend that the British Governmet should transmit them
to that of Austria, recommending them as a basis
upon
noble which
heineh a treaty of peace might be concluded. My
thought that, on the one hand, it would
be unbecoming in this Government, anxious as it must
have been for the cessation of war, absolutely to decline
being the channel of
hand, he, and we, communication ; but, on the other
contending
parties feltthat the position in which the two
stood at that moment did not justify us in
actually interposing. We
therefore took the course which
I think was the proper one. We said "We will, as you
wish, communicate to the Austrian'
Minister the contents
of this paper, containing as it does Austrian Minister
notion, not ours, of
an arrangement, but we will not accompany it by any ad-
vice or opinion of our own. We shall distinctly
it
s u
say that it
soedr duty
comes from you, not from us, and wethink
merely not to suppress it." That was all that pa
noble friend gave the memorandum to the Austrian 2dY
Minis-
ter, telling him that the proposal was not ones, but that of
the French Government, and that Austria could deal with
it as she pleased. We did not refuse to be the channel of
communication, but we gave no advice nor did we express
any opinion as to the provisions contained in the memoran_
dum. But the right hon. gentleman seemed to say that
this proposal came from us, or was accompanied by our re •
commeadaKon, aad I have only to repeat that on this point
he was completely misinformed. He also said, reverting to
a topic which is often alluded to on that side of the house,
that we were likely to fall into a mistake similar to that of
the Government cf 1848 respecting the affairs of Italy. Now
that transaction has been repeatedly misrepresented, even
after the papers had been published completely 'explaining
it. The truth was, that at that time the Government of
England had no control over the powers that were waging
war in Italy. Baron Hummelauer came here with a prc-
posal at the time when Austria had been driven out of Lom-
bardy, and when a Provisional Government had been estab-
lished, so that for us to have supported such a proposal
would have been a mere mockery en our part. The same