The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-02 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS.
The Duke of SUTHERLAND presented a petition from
the County of Sutherland in favour of the Established Church
in Scotland, and for increasing Church accommodation. Si-
milar petitions were presented by the Duke of Gordon from
Keith in Banffshire, from Inverary, Kelso, and Aberdeen ; and
by the Marquis of Bute from the Counties of Bute and Argyle.
The Earl of RIPON moved that the third reading of the
Abolition of Oaths Bill be postponed until Monday next.
Lord PLUNKET had only heard of the observations of
the Bishop of Exeter through the channel of newspapers, from
the report of which it appeared that he (the Bishop of Exeter)
had alluded to some observations made by him some years ago,
expressing an opinion that Church property was not applicable
to any but ecclesiastical purposes. He, therefore, thought him-
self called upon to enter into some explanation on the subject.
—(" No.") That Rev. Prelate described him as an enemy
to any other appropriation of Church property than to purely
ecclesiastical purposes, and he (the Bishop of Exeter) had
done him the honour of saying he regretted his absence, that
he might have been enabled to repeat that opinion. Consi-
dering that he did not fight under the same banners as the
Rev. Prelate, he had no right to expect the honour of being
thus alluded to, and especially by one so capable as the Rev.
Prelate was of maintaining his own opinions. Such an honour
was neither expected, nor did he think that it was altogether
warranted by the circumstances of the case.—( Hear, hear.)
If the Right Rev. Prelate assured him that was not the case,
he should be perfectly satisfied. He felt satisfied that the
Right Rev. Prelate had not made the statement ironically, or
"Ai a4areasm, and it was only for him to undeceive the Right
Rev. Prelate as to the opinions which he had entertained. lie
had no intention of going into a discussion on the subject either
in the nature of Church Property, or the applicability of it to any
purposes whatever, but he wished merely to state the opinions
which he entertained. -He begged leave to state distinctly,
that in the first place, with respect to the Church of Ireland,
that the Church of Ireland, properly so called, and as at pre-
sent maintained, was the established religion of the land. He
considered the Church of Ireland was consolidated with the
Church of England. He was decidedly of opinion that an
Established Church was necessary, and it being necessary, the
Protestant Church was the Established Church of England
and Ireland. That was his sincere opinion. Then with re-
spect to the Temporalities of the Church, the question of the
Church itself, and its temporalities, were quite distinct. If
any one supposed that an expression had ever fallen from him that
the property of the Church was to be considered private pro-
perty, he begged to say, that was a most erroneous supposition.
He considered Church property corporate property ; but
corporate property of the most sacred kind. He held the
rights of every member of the Church ought to be pro-
tected, and that an ample provision should be made for the
clergy he was ready to admit, .but he had not the least hesi-
tation in saying that if, after all the purposes of the Church
had been answered, there should remain a surplus, that sur-
plus should be applied to purposes connected with the educa-
tion of. Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Whenever the question
should come properly before the House, he would be quite
ready to enter into the grounds on which he entertained those
opinions. He only availed himself of that opportunity for the
purpose of showing that he was consistent in his opinions.
The Bishop of EXETER wished, in the first place, to
address himself to one or two observations which had
fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord, which
satisfied him that he had greatly misapprehended
the conversation that took place a few nights ago. There was
not one word then said relative to appropriation of any surplus of
ecclesiastical property. The Noble Marquis, in presenting the
petition, spoke of Church property generally, without reference
to any surplus whatever, but spoke generally on Church
property being applicable to such purposes as the State
in its wisdom might think fit.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He
(the Bishop of Exeter) certainly, on that occasion, expressed
his regret that the Noble and Learned Lord had left
the House before the Noble Marquis had presented
the petition ; and he had stated that if the Noble and
Learned Lord had been present, he would, in language much
more powerful than he could, repel an opinion which was at
direct variance with that which the Noble and Learned
Lord had expressed on a former occasion. He believed he
might venture to appeal to the recollection of any Noble Lord
then present whether that was not the statemen he had made.
He was not sure whether the statement in the newspapers con-
tained any expression that he made an allusion to a debate that
occurred in another place. As to the irregularity with which
he was charged in alluding to tkat debate, he could not see
why the Noble and Learned Lord (Plunkett) should complain.
Lord PLUNKET—What he complained of was, that on
a motion made by a Noble Lord, allusion had been made to
him by the Right Reverend Prelate in his absence.
The Bishop of EXETER, in reply, considered that it was
perfectly regular for him. to refer to what had been said in
Parliament in 1824 by the Noble Lord, or by any other person.
But an injustice had been done to him—it was the Noble
Marquis (Westminster) who used the language complained of.
He (the Bishop of Exeter) was always proud to quote;the
Noble Lord's words, whether deliveredin 1824, or at any other
period ; and when he quoted that opinion, the Noble Marquis
remarked, that if the Noble Lord had entertained such an
opinion in 1824, he must have since changed his opinion, and
had partaken of the spirit of the age.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER explained.
The Bishop of EXETER then proceeded to defend him-
self from the charge of irregularity made against him by the
Noble and Learned Lord, and contended that he was at perfect
liberty to quote the opinion of any Noble Lord on any
occasion, when he might think proper to do so.—( Hear.)
He had quoted his expressions from Hansard's report, from
memory, and on referring to it he was surprised that his re-
collection bad served him so well. Since then he had also re-
ferred to the " Mirror of Parliament," and found that the
two accounts agreed almost to a letter, so much so that he
should almost have conceived the same reporter to have been
employed. The Right Rev. Prelate then quoted the words
made use of by the Noble and Learned Lord, in 1824, in
which he had stated that he did not differ from any opinion
he had entertained—he still held the property of the Church
to be a sacred deposit.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Nothing could
be more idle than to talk whether the property was or
was not under the controul of Parliament, as in the present
case. The property of the Church of Ireland was to be
applied strictly and impartially to purposes purely ecclesias-
tical. The Noble and Learned Lord, however, admitted that
the property of the Church might be applied to the purposes
of general education. Well, then, that being so, the pur-
poses for.which he (the Bishop of Exeter) had thought proper
to apply this part of the Noble and Learned Lord's expression
was one of similar extent, that of general education in Ireland.
He begged their Lordships to recollect what that system of
education was, namely that it should not be conducted on the
principles laid down by the Established Church. This was
in direct contradiction to the purport and construction of the
Noble and Learned Lord's argument, than whom there
was not a more eloquent and ardent supporter of the
system of education in Ireland, as that expressly implied by
the terms strictly ecclesiastical, abiding and continuing in the
system as professed by the Church of England.—( Hear.)
It was necessary that they should understand the meaning of
words used in that House ; and when the Noble and Learned
Lord proposed general education as a purpose to which
Church property might be applied, he (the Right Rev. Pre-
late) would shelter himself under the apparent meaning of the
words of the Noble and Learned Lord a year and a half ago.
He did not suspect the Noble and Learned Lord's difference of
opinion, but lie lamented to hear the Noble and Learned Lord
disavow those words which had given such satisfaction to the
Protestant population of the empire, and which had been so
strong and cheering to their heart in the time of their dis-
tress.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM thought that the irregularity was on
the part of the Right Rev. Prelate, in referring to a speech of
his Noble and Learned Friend, in his absence, in answer to a
statement made by a Noble Marquis (Westminster), on the
presentation of a petition.—( Oh, oh," from the Duke of Cum-
berland.) The Illustrious Duke cried "oh "
The Duke of CUMBERLAND.--The Right Rev. Pre-
late was not aware that the Noble and Learned Lord was
absent when he referred to him.
Lord BROUGHAM.—Why, the Right Rev. Prelate be-
gan by regretting that the Noble and Learned Lord had left
the House.—( A laugh.) Save me from my friends whether
they are illustrious or otherwise.—(Renewed laughter.) A
friend is a. thousand times worse than a feeble enemy.—
The great hopes he had been obliged to form of the
present Government were completely blown away. The
cup which he had been swilling, as it were—(great laugh-
ter)—was dashed from his hand when he saw that
a charge was made upon his Noble and Learned Friend,
because it was now alleged that he had got a new light—
that he had changed, and that he now held more liberal
opinions than he did in the year 1824.—( Cries of 1833.)
Well, he would take it as 1833 ; and he might compare the
opinions held now by Hon. Gentlemen and Noble Lords form-
ing the present Administration in 1833, with those which
they held at the present moment; were they not of a more
liberal character now than in those days ? He also had been
misrepresented—he would say misunderstood—by some
Hon. Gentlemen in another House, but if he was charged
with now holding opinions of a more liberal character than he
had formerly done, he would not now defend himself ; how-
ever, if Hon. Gentlemen in another place had any charge to
make against him, either for opinions he had expressed, or
for acts done, lie was quite ready to appear when called upon,
and avail himself of the ancient practice of defending himself—
( Loud laughter, and cries of " At the bar")—within the bar,
lie was perfectly ready, at any time when called upon, to ap-
pear there, and having heard the charges against him, make
such a defence as was in his power.—( Laughter.) That
was the most ancient practice, and he for one was per-
fectly willing to appear before his old friends and ancient
political enemies in such a way. He had a petition put into
his hands in order that he should either present it to that
House or put it into the hands of a member of the other House
—it was from the people called " Friends" in Ireland, com-
plaining of the present system of tithes, as being connected