The Sun.
London, England, 1832-02-18 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS.

The Report of t.bc Committee on Tithes ;lave
rise to some rather warm observations last night
in the House of Lords. The Duke of Buck-
ingham said, " he had no party feelings on the
subject, and the Noble Earl (Grey) would par-
don him that he could not look to the measure
as a source of security and tranquillity ; he could
not look at it as calculated to realise the hopes
and expectations which had been excited ; and
looking back at the measures adopted in Ire-
land—looking at the state of that country
—looking at the vacillation of the Government
of Ireland, taking up and laying down measures
as that great Agitator of Irtland dictated, who
had acknowledged himself guilty of breaking the
law—looking at the Government afterwards
courting his hollow assistance to secure the
country against agitation—looking at these
things, could he expect from the measure now
proposed, tranquillity for Ireland, security for the
Protestant Church The Duke of Buckingham
looks at a great many things, no doubt ; but if
he were to look also at the moon and the stars,
he might not himself discover a measure calcu-
lated to give tranquillity to Ireland and security
to the Protestant Church. His Grace might as
well complain of Lord Althorp's cholera preven•
tion measure, that it does not give a promise of
tranquillity to the public, and security to gin-
drinkers. The Irish people are an excellent
people, and Protestantism is an excellent reli-
gion ; but, unfortunately, the Irish people have
no relish for Protestantism ; and, however much
w, may be attached to Protestantism, it is quite
oLvious that it is not our attachment but that of
the Irish which is required to give security to a
Protestant Church in Ireland. His Grace talks of
security to the Protestant Church, as if Earl Grey
had only to whistle to effect what the English,
since the Reformation to this day, have never
been able to effect. No Church can be secure
which is established by force and in opposition
to the inclinations of the people ; and the Irish
Church is upheld only by force. 'the Church of
Ireland only exists because the people of Ireland are
unable to rid themselves of it, and not because they
are not desirous of ridding themselves of it.—
Ireland may be tranquillised ; but it is much
easier to see how that country may be tranquil-
lised than the Protestant Church secured. In
fact that Church has been one great cause (cer-
tainly not the only cause) of the country's never
having been tranquillised. We question whe-
ther the establishment of a Catholic Church, or
even the Anglican Church in Scotland, would
greatly tend to tranquillise that country ; and
the people of England, though proverbial for
patience and long suffering, might not be over
and above delighted to see a Popish priest offi-
ciating in every parish church. Our readers
may think we have bestowed more than suf-
ficient attention on this twaddle, but we can-
not afford to neglect a man of his Grace's rank.
It is much easier to tell what Ministers have
not done than to tell how they could have done
more than they have. They found, on enter-
ing on office, a combination among the Irish
not to pay tithes. When a whole people are of
one mind with regard to any thing, the law can-
not make them of another mind. What could
Ministers do ? How is it possible to make
men pay tithes if they do not choose to
pay them ?
" They suffer (as Mr. Cobbett, in his Register of this I
day, forcibly of serves) the law to take its course, and that
course is the takimr, away of their property, and offering it
for sale. But now comes the difficulty of the reverend
past-ors. They have no difficulty in the seizure, or in the
offering the things seized for sale ; but nobody will buy
the things offered for sole. And what is the cause of this?
A conspiracy' has been talked of ; and if there were
a conspiracy capable of proof, there stands the law, with
its sharp iron claws, at all times ready to tear the conspi-
rators to p'ec P. It is a conpiracy such as men enter into
when they rush out of a play-house that is said to be on
lire. It resembles a consoiracy to entertain a desire to
preserve life by avoiding the effects of famine or of pesti-
lecce, Self-interest, a love of gain, a desire to add to
one's property ; these are feelings arising out of the uni-
versal desire for s. if-preservation. The stock seized by the
rasttiend pastors, and tendered for sale, doubtless, in cha-
rity. humility, and mercy, must present, in the s:veral
pari,liea, advantageous bargains to purchasers ;
therefore, no such purchasers appearing, it must be
true that it is the general Conviction of the people
of ti e country that it is wrong for any man to
participate in the purchase. In short, there is no con-
apieacy whatever, any more than there can he said to exist
a conspiracy against crime of any sort. All men, gene-
rally speaking, are against crimes, moral or legal ; all men
da their hest to repress crimes ; all men stun crime or the
imputation of crime, or the community would be at an
end; and if the feeling with regard to tithes and Easter
utferings be equally prevalent, how can any part of the
cornmunity he accused of a conspiracy ? It may, indeed,
be said, that the whole of the community have a feeling
hostile to the law ; but it is a thing impossible that the
taw Should, under such circumstances, be enforced. It
may be a question whether the community be wise or
tooliah in their hostility to the law ; but there can be no
question that, under such circumstances, the wise part for
the Government to act would he at once to repeal the law."

he people of Ireland cannot be Made to pay
against their will ; and though it is possible that
by fire and sword we might inflict evils on Ire-
land, from which the people would suffer more
than from tithes, yet the experiment would not
be without danger, and it would, at all events,
be a costly one to ourselves. Ministers found
the Protestant clergy suffering from want of
the tithes, and they have endeavoured to re-
lieve them. If the tithes cannot be levied, the
situation of the clergy cannot, at all events, be
deteriorated by offering to become their pay-
ma2ter for the past year, and giving them an
equivalent for the future. If the land, or
other equivalent, do not give security to the
Church, tithes do not give a better security.—
Nothing can compensate for the want of at-
tachment of the people, in which attachment
the only security is to be found. If the
Protestant Clergy of Irelar d wish to ob-
tain this security, the Government does not
stand in their way. On the contrary, by
putting an end to the cause of so many disputes
between the Protestant clergy and the people, the
Government have removed one of the main ob-
stacles to their success in any attempt to gain the
affections of the people.
Was it fair (asked Lord Plunkett) to state that tF e
Government wished to injure the Church, when it raised
expectations of putting anendtosn daily conflicts between
and when the clergy and the people,it endeavoured to re-
store peace? could it injure the character of the 'Mi-
nisters of God, who were en(g)raged in interpreting the
word of God to the people?
could
it injure the in-
terests of the Church to take away these sources of con.
Mot? Would not the instruction of the
cordially received by the people, if this c'
source ofergybe
more
dispute
did not exist?"
Thus are the people of Ireland, and a party
of that people, arrayed against each other. 'he.
people wish equality ; the party wish ascendancy.
There can be no question which ought to obtain
our suffrages. It is time enough to complain of
the people when they are not satisfied with being
on an equal footing with their adversaries. Lord
Carnarvon said, " the Catholics of Ireland had
received the greatest boon that ever was conferred
on any people ;" but that greatest of boon 3 was
not greater than what they were entitled to. If
a man have both hands and feet tied, and his feet
and one of his hand 7 are untied, he will ¶till be

anxious to have the use also of his remaining
hand. Lord Plunkett said as much as this when
he observed, that— . . .

" There was the lawless Democracy Association, and
lawless A.,cendancy Association. The Democracy Asso-
ciation was wicked, mischievous, and dangerous. He had
often looked at it with apprehension ; but it was mixed up,
lawless as it was, with some reel grievances. It ;night be
said, why did the law not put it down ? The law had been
applied, but they could not go beyond the law, and they
must take away the grievance. He saw some necessity for
this Association; but, without imputing had motives to
the other, charity even obliged him to say that they were
the most senseless c'ass of Associations that Le hid ever
heard of. He was afraid of the former, but he could not
possibly feel any respect for the latter."
The Democracy Associators are lawless, be-
cause the law still subjects them to real griev-
ances. The Ascendancy Associators have no
other grievance to complain of than they are in
danger of not being much longer able to tyran-
nise over the. Catholics. They are like mis-
chievous boys, who complain because they are
not allowed to throw stones at passengers.

" These persons (said Lord Plunkett) called themselves
the go irdians of the public peace ; they associate to put an
end to the peace of the country. lie had looked through their
oroceedings—he had examined their speeches, abstracting
himself from other business, and he could openly declare
that he had not found one intelligible proposition in all
their proceedings. They called out for protection from
the law—theycalled out to preserve the Constitution-4)ut
they did not establish any infraction of ti e laws, or point
out any remedy which could be adopted. The Govern-
ment was beset by enemies on both sides—(Hear, hear)
—hut the good feeling of the great body of the people—of
all the sound, and intelligent, and sensible part of the
population, was in its favour, as it looked to them for
pport. "

'The Earl of Wicklow, one of the Lord Lieu-
tenants of Munster, absolutely raved against the
report.
" It did appear to him that, if anything were wanting
to prove the progress of revolutionary principle., it would
be proved by this—that such a report, declaring the sub-
version of the law of the land by a daring combination
extending over a large portion of the United Kingdom,
should he laid upon their Lordships' table by a Minister of
the Crown, without one word of comment or explanation.
How the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Govern-
ment could reconcile himself to the abandonrront of the
law under such circumstances, and how lie could reconcile
his own declarations in that House some evenings ago
with those that had since been made elsewhere, he (Lord
Wick'ow) did not understand. In other places it had
been said th,,t, although it was the determination of his
Msjesty's Ministers to uphold the laws of the land, yet
they would not do so without at the same time removing
the grievances existing. In that declaration it was ob-
viously implied, that the law of the land, which had ex-
isted since the annexation of Ireland to the English Crown,
was a grievance.—(Hear, hear.) He denied that the law
which his Majesty's Ministers proposed to repeal was a
grievance. It was a wise, equitable, and useful insti-
tution. But the grievance which existed in Ireland was
wholly attributable to the Ministers themselves."—(Hear.)
But his Lordship gives the best answer to his
own charge. Be tells us that, "in truth the
system of resistance had existed more than two
'tears." But Ministers have been little more
than one year in office, and it appears that there
predecessors suffered this daring combination to
exist for more than a year, " Tithes (quoth
his Lordship) are a wise, equitable, and useful
institution." Yet wise, and equitable, and use-
ful as they are, the people of most countries of
Europe have always been impatient under them,
and for the most part have rid themselves of
them. In no country have they been levied
ith half the rigour with which they are levied in
England and Ireland, nor has the law ever been
so unrighteously perverted into an engine of
rubbery, for the sake of the Church, as in Eng-
land and Ireland. However, be they wise and
equitable, or otherwise, the Noble Lord does not
suggest any means for inoculating the people of
Ireland with his notions, and the question still
recurs, can tithes he enforced ? Earl Grey was
extremely indignant at the language of Lord
Wicklow, and, in answer, admitted more than
perhaps was necessary. "It could not be ad-
mitted (he said), nor would he (Earl Grey)
ever admit that the law of tithe was a grievance--
the manner in which the law was executed was a
grievance."—(Hear, hear.) If the law of tithe
is not a grievance, and the manner in which the
law is executed is alone a grievance, then tithe
ought not to be commuted, but a better mode
of executing the law ought to be thought of. But
the law itself is a grievance, and a great griev-
ance, and all the wise men in Europe will fail
to devise such a mode of executing it, as will
make it palatable to the people of Ireland. After
all, however, we suspect the clergy of Ireland,
on reflection, will deem it advisable to secure a
well-paid income while they may. In the
present state of Ireland, it may be some time
before they can raise as much money for tithes
as Ministers have offered to them. We shall
soon see how the report will work.—Allorning
Chronicle.

Our city articles of both yesterday and to-day
describe the effects, actual and probable, of the
rumoured cholera in the parts of London bor-
dering on the river. We do not mean to say
that medical men were to be deterred from an-
nouncing the existence of the disease, if it did
really exist, by the consideration of any conse-
quences which might result from the announce-
ment, because the mischief resulting from con-
cealment was likely to be much more fearful.
But still there are many causes operating upon
the human mind which would, perhaps uncon-
sciously produce a disposition " to make the
most" of the thing, in those who had to pro-
nounce upon it,—such as the importance which
is usually obtained by the authors of a first dis-
covery,—the
love of the wonderful,—and, '
joined with these, perhaps a more reasonable
apprehension of being thought dull or negli-
gent in observing phenomena, as " appearances"
are learnedly called, or out of the way of ob-
serving them. In any case, however, subsequent
reports do certainly not corroborate our first fears
up to their full extent. We even think it doubt-
ful whether there is any other disease than usually
exists during an unhealthy season, and whether
the existing diseases, for there is a variety of
them, have any peculiar aptitude to propagate
themselves by contagion. But, having said thus
much, we still think there is cause for the ut-
most caution, and for a very close attention to
the state of the poor in the suspected districts.
But to go to the effects of the rumours on the
commercial world. There is said to be a de-
mand for money (which the moneyed men are_
not too ready to supply) to meet the calls of the
manufacturer, the mercantile exporter of goods
not being likely to have a remittance from his
correspondents abroad, where the ports will be
subjected to a quarantine. We have seen no
instance of the disorder being communicated by
&iioeodtsh ~e
• rantine ; and they
France and are, it would be wholly
alesastis theca
etyio
captious
rscea so‘esn,
Our friends in France, it is thought, will
[ impossible, if legitimate
isew,:ie
iithfors,ctolisreeituaoptfeladqguuaae-
‘ s.
commerce were to be
intercourse by Englandsmug-
[ suspended, to check the in
I glint;, which would be much more likely to
I communicate infection, from the
character of the
f men employed, and their nocturnaland
. . surrep-
titious ii courses. Holland will be less accessible:
if so, she voluntarily takes upon her a real evil,

' from her apprehension of ene which may not
exist. Indeed, we have heard people gravely
hint their suspicions in this country, that the case
of cholera, if not got up, has been greatly exag-
gerated, in order to withdraw men's attention
from Reform ; and this opinion is greatly
strengthened by the conduct of the Anti-Re-
formers in Parliament, who either are, or affect to
be, frightened out of their wits. W'e can see no
reason for an issue of Exchequer-bills by Go-
vernment, which would have the effect of giving
us a larger circulation than we need, for the evil
is not a want of money, but a want of confi-
dence. A reduced public expenditure, also, to
which we look, will render the existing issues
more available to private purposes.— Times.
The Lords' report on Irish tithes has now
been printed in a correct and authentic form.
The substance differs in no respect from that of
our yesterday's Parliamentary report ; nor do we
feel that at present there is much room for a de-
tailed discussion on the mode by which the
whole property of Ireland is to be rendered
chargeable with the subsistence of the parochial
clergy, or a fixed portion of the soil allotted to
that purpose in lieu of the extinguished tithe.
If the latter policy shall be that preferred by the
Legislature, we confess that it does not appear to
us by what expedient a fund can be ensured within
any definite period for the purchase of the land re-
quired or where an estate is to be found for sale,
within or contiguous to each parish in theking-
dom, and an estate, moreover, approaching to
any thing like an equivalent (neither too great
nor too little) for the yearly value of tithe against
which it shad be commuted. An objection of
the same nature, though possibly less forcible in
practice, would lie to the purchase of one large
estate to be vested in the whole body of incum-
bents within one diocese or Archdeaconry as a
corporation, and by them re-distributed among
the individual clergy in a ratio determined
by the value of their existing benefices. It is
in all points of view gratifying to observe, that
in the Tithe Committee the Bishops voted with
his Nlajesty's \linisters. This furnishes the
country with a satisfactory proof that the heads
of the Church have improved the season afforded
them for reflection since their memorable vote
of last session. Sure we are that every en-
lightened friend of the Church must now see,
as those venerable persona have apparently begun
to do, that its interests—nay, its existence—
must depend upon the national feeling in its
favour ; and that it is as vain, in the ecclesias-
tical as in the political institutions of this country,
to imagine that we can successfully oppose a
mass of obsolete and obnoxious forms to a ge-
neral sense of what is demanded by the substan-
tial rights and necessities of a resolute people.
The Bishops have done themselves honour on
this occasion, and have laid the groundwork of
increased goodwill and reverence for the Church
itself. We trust that they will strengthen their
claims upon the country by a prompt revision of
their unfortunate vote on Parliamentary Reform.
A long and rather angry discussion took place in
the House of Lords, but it led to no result.—
Times.

For years past we have taken opportunities to
raise our voice against the cruel and disgusting
practice of flogging in the army and navy, but
more especially in the former branch of our
service, where it is generally carried to much
more inhuman lengths than in the latter—and
where that ingenious instrument of torture, called
the cat-o'-nine•tails—worthy of the Spanish In-
quisition—is frequently regulated in its applica-
tion to the bare back of' the British soldier on
so nice a principle of adjustment between the in-
fliction of torture and the capacity to endure it,
that it is necessary for the hand of science to
feel the pulse of the sufferer, and mark the ebbing
of the vital principle, lest it recede to that pre-
cise point where it ceases to flow for ever ! if
this mode of torturing human beings be neces-
sary to the preservation of military discipline, it
furnishes one of the strongest arguments possible
for the abolition of standing armies, as having,
by the very condition of their existence, an in-
evitable tendency to brutalize mankind. But no
such degrading and disgusting punishment is
necessary to uphold discipline among British
soldiers. They are men and not brutes. if
treated as brutes, they must lose their caste as
men ;—treated as brutes did we say ? Why, since
the passing of Mr. Martin's Act, no such unmerciful
application of the lash can be, legally, made to the
backs of brutes, as, under the Mutiny Act,
British soldiers are made to endure. We have
a law to preserve inferior animals from the cruel
and excessive punishment which their drivers, in
the ardour of their zeal for the " preservation of
discipline," were wont to inflict. But the endu-
rance of the powers of life is the only limit
placed to the amount of cruel punishment by
which the flesh is torn from the backs of brave
men—the defenders of their country. Our at-
tention has been called to this subject, more par li
-
ticularly at the present moment, in consequence
of Mr. Hunt's motion for certain returns con
nected with the flogging system, and the resist-
ance which it so unexpectedly received from the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr Hunt's !no-
tion was merely for the returns of the number of
Courts-martial held in England and Wales from
the Ist of January, 1831, to the Ist of January,
11832, specifying the charges and circumstances
connected with each case, and the number of
lashes received by each individual sentenced to
be flogged. Now this motion, which did not go
to pledge the Ministers to any thing—which was
merely a motion to ascertain to what extent the
practice of flogging in the army had been car-
ried during the last year—Lord Althorp opposed ;
and what were his reasons ? First, it was not the
proper time to discuss the subject. But the
motion was not one of discussion, but merely
to obtain information preparatory to some future
discussion. Secondly, Government very much
regretted the necessity of being obliged to sanc-
tion military flogging, but, from all he could
learn from the best sources, it was not consistent
with the discipline of the army that it should be
actually done away. Thirdly, it had, however,
of late been greatly diminished, and the general
wish was, among the commanding officers of' the
army, to substitute some other mode of punish-
ment for it. Fourthly, propositions of this na-
ture bad on several former occasions been
brought forward, but the House never acceded
to them, and the Hon. Gentleman had urged no
new grounds in support of the present motion.
As to the second and third of the aforegoing
reasons, they are inconsistent with each other,
for if he (Lord Althorp) had learned from the
best sources that the abolition of the punishment
of flogging was inconsistent with the preservation
of the discipline of the army, how was he ena-
bled to state at the same time, that there was
a general wish among the d
of the army to substitute mode pu-
nishment for it ? What! were not the com-
manding officers the best sources of informa-
j ust spoken, and was there
tion which he had

la general wish among those officers to substitute
sume other mode of punishment for one which
was absolutely necessary to the existence of
discipline in the army ? Truly Lord Althorp
never displayed more confusion of ideas even on
a question of finance. If this be candour, it is
that sort of candour which blows " hot and
cold," and attempts to reconcile contradictions.
We recollect when Sir F. Burdett used to make
the House ring with eloquent indignation on
this subject, his friends were then out of power :
for the Whigs used to vote for him on this ques-
tion, though not on his favourite panacea for the
evils of England—namely, annual Parliaments
and universal suffrage. His friends are now in
power, and the Hon. Baronet is silent. Has
he, with the opportunity of doing good, like
most modern politicians, lost the inclination ?
Then there is the present Secretary of War, Sir
J. C. Hobhouse. He used to be quite as in-
dignant on this subject, though not so eloquent ;
but he took care to be out of the House when
this motion was made, of which, we suppose, he
had notice. Let us ask Lord Althorp how is
it that the discipline of the French army is pre-
served without the cat-o'nine-tails, or any species
of torture or brutalizing punishment ? Are
Englishmen less capable of being influenced by
moral treatment, or by a sense of honour, than the
French ? If so, the lash, not nature, has pro-
duced the degrading distinction.—Morning
Herald.

Since the commencement of W big misrule it
has been an unsatisfactory duty to inquire into
our commercial relations. It has now become
an appalling one ; for we can hear of nothing
upon this subject but the increasing embarrass-
ment of merchants, and the widely-spreading,
pauperism of those who are employed in carry-
ing their transactions into effect. The weakness
of Ministers in their proceedings regarding cho-
lera has caused the cup of commercial 'distress,
which had previously been filled to the brim by
the Reform clamour and other acts of impolicy
amid mismanagement on their part, to overflow,
and the prospect before us is deeply afflict-
ing. From the - best authority we can state
that 2,000 labourers on the river were thrown
out of work yesterday, and it was calculated,
upon almost unerring data, that the same num-
ber would be discharged to-day. Shipping or-
ders are entirely suspended ; the export trade of
the kingdom and transactions in every commer-
cial market are nearly paralyzed. In Mincing.
lane all descriptions of West India produce are
declining in value. In Sugar, indeed, the pike
yesterday did not give way, because sales were
not forced ; but it is useless to enter into details
to shew commercial depression when the expor-
tation of goods is in abeyance. One ship-
ping house alone caused two vessels nearly
laden, bound for Spain, to be cleared
of their goods yesterday, and two thou-
sand fire hundred bales of fine cloth to be
re-landed. In short, no articles will be for-
warded to their destinations that can be injured
by the process consequent upon quarantine re-
gulations. In the mean time money is becom-
ing scarce, and every symptom of mercantile
panic is at hand, with men in the Government who
cannot manage the common occurrences of the
Administration, much less conduct the empire
tnrough the crisis they have produced. The
bad feeling also that exists among foreign
nations towards the present Ministers of Great
Britain must inevitably aggravate the evils
she is at this moment enduring. Will time Kings
of Holland, of Portugal, or Spain, pay attention
to the remonstrances of a set of Ministers respect-
ing their regulations for the prevention of the
spread of cholera, who have been running a tilt
against them ever since they came into office ?
This is the very natural feeling in the city, that
these and other Governments will shew no cour-
tesy to that of England. Revolutionary France
and the Belgian dynasty, the ricketty bantling of
the diplomatic policy of the Grey Cabinet, may
slim some favour to us in our present national
difficulties ; but all other dynasties, treated as
they have been by the British Ministers, will
eagerly retort upon them in this the hour of trial
of the country they so grossly misgovern.—
Morning Post.

FROM THE GAZETTE OF LAST NIGHT.

LORD CHAMBERLAIN'S OFFICE, FEB. 13, 1832.
The Lord Chamberlain of his Majesty's Household has ap-
pointed Thomas Field Savory, of Sussex-place, Regent's Park,
Esq., one of the Gentlemen of his Majesty's Most Bon. Privy
Chamber in Ordinary.