The Sun.
London, England, 1832-02-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

II 0 USE OF L ORD S, Frinc.utt 27. -:
The LORD CUANCELLOR took his seat at Ten Minutes
after Five o'clock.
Viscount STRANGFORD presented a petition from
Woodstock, against the importation of foreign gloves ;
and a! the same time cave notice that, on the 6th March,
he would move for a Select Committee to enquire into this
branch of our commerce.
. . . .

Lord PLUNKETT presented a petition against the
tithe system in Ireland.
Lorh KENYON postponed the Committee on the
Agricultural Labourers' Bill.
In answer to a question by the Marquis of Sausntrav,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he hoped the
question of the poor laws would be so far settled that in
few days he would be able to lay some information before
the House. In that time, he hoped the arrangement with
te•pect to the Commissioners would be settled.
The Marquis of SALISBURY enquired whether there
would be any objection to lay before the House the in-
structions given t., the Commissioners ?
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the question was so
very vague, that be could not possibly give an answer.
When the Commissioners were appointed, and any instruc-
tions given to them, then would be the time to give an
answer to the question.
The Duke of WELLINGTON wished to ask the Noble
Secretary for the Colonies whether the order in Council
of the 22d of December, had been sent to the whole of the
colonies; and, if not, why it had been unaittted to any of
them?

Lord GODERICH said the Noble Duke was in error,
b cause the Order in Council had been sent to all the
colonies. It WAS accompanied by a recommendation from
him that proclamation should not be issued, except upon
argent occasions. He had had a communication from
Lord Belmore, who had not conceived there was any thing
which would justify him in issuing the proclamation between
the time of his receiving it and the time of the breaking out
of the insurrection. _ _ _

The Duke of WELLINGTON enquired whether there
would he any objection to the production of the despatch ?
Lord GODERICH—So far as he was at present in-
formed, there would be no objection to lay it before the
House. What hid subsequently transpired of course he
would require time to consider of.
The Earl of ABERDEEN was always sorry when
he had occasion to take up their Lordships' time,
hut the qtrestion he- had now to put was one of
great magnitude, and be hoped the House would bear
with him for a few moments. He wished to know
from the Noble Earl (Grey) whether Government
hod been informed as to the object of the French Go-
vernment, in sending out a large expedition to the coast
of Italy, and whether it was undertaken with theirconsent?
Earl GREY thought this proceeding was rather un-
usual—he did not remember that it had ever before
happened that Government had been called upon to
answer such questions. All he would at present say was,
that Government had had notice from the French of their
intention in respect to this expedition.
The Earl of ABERDEEN was greatly astonished at
the Noble Earl's reply.—( Hear, hear.) It was scarcely
compatible with his (Earl Grey's) oft-repeated praises of
France, and her sincerity, good faith, anti friendly feeling,
that he should not be able to explain to their Lordships
the objact of an expedition which was so extraordinary—
(Ctieers)—an expedition of a nature which would de-
cidedly give rise to suspicion in every part of Europe. The
Noble Earl's mode, toe, of stating the very scanty informa-
tion he hail received was not quite consistent with that
very dose union with France of which he had so fre-
quently boasted, anti which he so recently solemnized in
the presence of that august personage the Lord Mayor.—
(Laughter and cheers.) At least, however, he had to con-
gratulate the House upon the termination of that ridiculous
aystern of non-intervention. It was quite clear they should
hear no more of it.—( Hear, hear.) No Government, not
even the most despotic, the most tyrannical, or the most
grasping and ambitious, and the most given to interven-
tion, could object to the Noble Earl's definition of non_
intervention.—(Hear, hear.) He said that intervention
was not permitted, except when the security and tran-
quilii ty and great interests of a State were affected by a neigh-
bouring State. This was universally adopted. The difficulty
was in its application. He presumed the Noble Earl did
not mean to snake the French Government the judge of
when the honour and interest of England required her to
interfere.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, it came to this—every
nation reserved to itself th.e right to interfere in the af-
fairs of its neighbours, when the system pursued by that
neighbour, or the State in which it was placed, affected its
own security or any of its great interests. Indeed, I'
might be said of the Noble Lord's intervention, as Selden
said of the equity of the Lord Chancellor, it was just the
length of the foot of the Noble Earl.—(Hear, and laughter.)
But to return to this expedition : it was so extraordinary,
that n ere it not for the consequences with which it was
sure to he attended, it would be ridiculous.—(Hear, hear.)
A revolt took place in a part of the Papal dominions.
The Austrians, feeling that this was fraught with danger
to their own possessiom, and having been sent for by his
Holiness, despatch a force into the country to restore
tranquillity. This might be right or it might be wrong
—politic or impolitic—necessary or unnecessary—but
Austria was the sole judge of that, and if any expla-
nation was required, it should be demanded from Aus-
tria.—(Hear, bear, hear.) But France said nothing to
Austria. To the Italians, however, she said, if Austria
goes to protect you, we will go and protect you too.—
(C:ieers and laughter.) Was it pretended that the Pipe
had called for the French.—(Cheers.) No; and, more-
over, this force of theirs must be sent to some point where
there was no disturbance—(Hear, hear)—where there was
no disturbance, hut where, or he was much mistaken,
after a few stay there would be a disturbance and revolt.
—(Hoar, hear.) For what effect could the French force
propose to itself except to protect revolt—(Hear)--and
excite insurrection.—( Hear.) Such alone could be the
effect of the first flutter of the tri-colour in the country
against the known wish of the Government.—(Hear.)
In France, this flag may be the symbol of peace, of plenty,
and prosperity; but out of France, it hail ever been at-
tended by mi.ery, deso'ation, and war.--(Lotul dicers.)
Again, it was to be considered, that as soon as this French
force appeared, Sardinia and Austria must of course take
measures to meet its interference. In short, it was an
expedition worthy of the best days of the Republic, and
be knew no parallel for it except the expedition to Egypt.
In conclusion, he submitted to the House, that the sub-
ject was well worthy the" best attention of the Go-
vernment, and that they had a right to expect more ex-
plicit and extensive information.
Earl GREY said the Noble Lord was not satisfied with
having his questions answered, but again rose, not to ask
other questions, but to force on a discussion upon a subject
which he would find, when it came before the House,
he was completely ignorant of. He would not allow leim-
self to be drawn into a debate upon the subject at
the present inconvenient time. In answer to
the taunts of the Noble Lord with respect to
the close connection of this country with France,
he would only say there never was a time when the bonds
of connection between the two countries required to lie
drag n so close in order to preserve the peace of Eu-
rope. He hop d that would be preserved, in spite
of all the endeavours of Noble Lords opposite.—( Hear,
bear.) He had never yet found a single case to justify a
suspicion of the faith of the French Government. lie
had still, and should continue to have, a wish for non-
intervention, hut when the safety of neighbouring States
required it, when the peace of Europe was endangered
--communications had been made to him by the
French Government which had satisfied bins, and
be, as a Minister of the Crown, could not at present
iv snore. It was not long since an expedition of a
greater amount, and one which was likely to lead to far
greater results, had sailed apparently with the concurrence
of the Noble Earl, and he (Earl Grey) did not recollect
that any one had got up and questioned the Noble
Earl upon the subject. The Government had taken the
responsibility upon themselves, arid when the proper time
came they would be ready to defend their conduct.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought that all
the foreign Governments had a right to complain of the
foreign policy of the present Administration, which was
all for France, and careless of the rest of the world.
His object, however, in rising, was to ask the Noble
Earl if the ratifications of the Belaian Treaty by the
Great Powers were likely to be exchanged--and if so,
when they were likely to be exchanged ?—and, also, if
the Noble Earl had rec, ived any information abeut the
Belgian fortresses?

Earl GREY as to the ratifications could not Nay any thing
positive. He could only state, that this Government had
a right to expect that the ratifications would be sent, and
he had confident belief that they would be.
TITHES, &c. &c.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM, after alluding to the
state of Irel,nd, in consequence of the resistance to the
p iyinent of tithes, and observing that discussions and
delays in the Houses of parliament had made, and were
only calculated to make, that state infinitely worse, asked
the Noble Earl when he meant to bring forward his mea-
sure for the settlement of this question ?
Earl GREY said that the measure was in an advanced
state, but could riot be immedi4tety,l;rought fsorwatd. It
should originate in the other- Huuse, and he could assure
Noble Due it 'would be introduced with the least

-~_

possible delay. He denied that the agitation of the tithe
question had been made worse by the discussions in that
'House;
and as to delay, it WU; no matter of reproach to
the existinc; Ministry that they had net been able to settle
in one year a question under consideration for many and many
years, and which no Ministry had ever yet been able to
bring to a satisfactory conclusion. He agreed with the
Noble Duke as to the necessity of preserving the peace in
Ireland ; for upon that the peace of the empire did in a
great measure depend. But he trusted that the measure
to be proposed would be found conducive to the peace of
the country, and that it would preserve the interests
of the Church, by placing them upon a satisfactory
foundation.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE remarked that the evi•
dence before the Committee had not yet been distributed
to the Members of the House of Commons, and therefore
the Bill could not Lave peen introduced there.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said; my Lords, I have
not had an opportunity, or perhaps I should rather say I
have avoided the opportunity, of saying one word on
tithes since they have been lost discussed be`ore your
Lordships. I had an objection to doing so until the
Noble Earl should have brought forward his promised
measure, which was to originate on the report of the
Committee, established, they stated, upon the recommen-
dation of his Majesty. But when I heard that difficulties
had for a long period existed, and that no measure was
adopted to remove them by any preceding Cibinet, and I
having belonged to preceding Cabinets, and having been
in that very Cabinet to which the Noble Earl succeeded, I
felt that I could not sit by and listen to what the Noble
Earl has stated without giving a direct contradiction to it.
—(Cheers.) My Lords, until the period when the Noble
Earl took on himself the conduct of his Majesty's affairs,
we bad never heard of tithes from the moment that the
Tithe Composition Act was put in force. This Act, my
Lords, was brought in by a Right Hon. Colleague and
Friend of mine ; and I say that it did put an end to
almost all disturbance upon the subject of tithes in
Ireland. Two-thirds of the livings in that country were
under the Tithe Composition Act. Well, then, my
Lords, what is the cause of the present state of the
tithe question? We have already considered—first,
his Majesty's reference to the subject of his speech from
the throne; and next, that this House is not to be
called upon to adopt a measure upon the responsibility
of Ministers; and now we find that we are to enter-
tain the question with a view to the formation of a new sys-
tem. My Lords, what is the cause of this ? My Lords,
the cause is the encouragement given to agitators to dis-
turb the country.—(Loud cheers.) I can tell the Noble
Earl, that so long as encouragement is given to agitators,
you may double and treble the regular army in Ireland—
you may heap measure of severity upon measure of seve-
rity—but you will not succeed in putting down agitation
upon this question, or upon any of the others which may
follow it. My Lords, we talk of a question of property.
A Noble Lord, the other night, in discussing the question
of tithes, observed, the people of Ireland are ready to pay
that for which they receive value, to pay their rent, and
to pay all the taxes on the land, and that they wished not
to deprive any man of his property. I say, then, my
Lords, is any property held so sacred by our law as tithes ?
In the first place the King is sworn—his Majesty was
sworn a few months ago to protect the property and
rights of the clergy—(Cheers)—above all classes of men.
(Cheers.) I desire also to hring to your Lordships' recol-
lection that in two recent Acts of Parliament, in which we
conferred notable advantages on the Dissenters from the
Church of England, we endeavoured, as far as we might
by oaths, to secure the property of the Church. If any
principle, indeed, can secure property to any portion of his
Majesty's subjects, the property of the Church ought to be
safe,—(Cheers.) It is a principle of the Constitution
that tithes, above all other property, should be secured to
the owner.—(Hear, hear.) In stating this thus strongly,
I am well aware that difficulties do now surround this
question in Ireland. And I was ready, and I am ready,
to support any fair proposition of the Noble Earl, to pre-
vent disturbance, and not only to suppress it myself, but to
use every influence I may be supposed to possess, to pre-
vent opposition to it.--(llear, hear.) But I cannot bear
that we should be accused of having done nothing in this
matter, when the fact is, that we did every thing in our
power to pacify the country, and put an end to that ques-
tion celiich we are indirectly accused of bringing on by the
Noble Earl.—(Loud cheers.)
Earl GREY would be at all times most grateful to the
Noble Duke for his support to any measure ; but he only
hoped that the spirit in which it was given would be dif- '
ferent, and that it would be extended in a very different
temper, because he did not think anything had fallen
from him calculated to provoke the strong feeling displayed
by the Noble Duke.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke
said that he (Lord Grey) had brought an accusation
against him as head of the lat.! Cabinet ; he had no such
intention. The difficulties respecting the tithe question
had been lung accumulating, and what he had said was,
that no preceding Cabinet had found a mode of fringing
them to a satisfactory conclusion. He did not mean to
say that no attempt had been made ; and he had not con-
sidered it necessary to allude to the Tithe Composition
Act. But before his administration came into office, it
was felt that Act was not operating so beneficially as might
have been expected. Much inconvenience had arisen
from the want of the compulsory clause, and disturbance
had in consequence occurred. He admitted that it bad
become more general and systematic since November, 1830 ;
but he repeated that the causes had been long accumu-
lating, and that the Administration had nothing to do with
it. The Learned and Venerable Eai I (Eldon) might
shake his head as much as be pleased, and endeavour
to lay the weight upon the Government, but be (Lord
Grey) felt they were guiltless of it. Refute the Noble
Duke or himself were horn, the question of tithes had
agitated the country, and at various periods occupied
the attention and consideration of various Statesmen.
The various Arts of Parliament on the subject showed
how constantly the question had been discussed. As to
their conduct in Ireland, he had only to say, that they
had always interfered with the force of the country
promptly and effectively when they saw that it was ad-
visable so to do ; but in some cases they had avoided
the application of force, because they saw it would be
useless. They found that it was necessary to look to a
new state of things, and to a change of system, to pre-
serve that property on which the Noble Duke hail de-
claimed, and the rights of which he had never disputed.
lie felt, that if a violation of the right of property were
permitted in one instance, it would lead to more.—(Hear,
hear.) On that principle was his conduct founded. The
Noble Duke had said that he (Lord Grey) might double
and treble the regular army, that be might heap measure
of severity upon measure of severity, but that be would
do it in vain, so long as the Government continued to
encourage agitation.—(Cheers.) This was a serious
charge—(Cheers)—directed against the Government of
the country.—(Cheers.) It was in effect that by their
mea:ures and conduct they were encouraging agitation
against the public peace.—(Cheers.) He thought he had
a right to call upon the Noble Duke for a specification.—
(Chest's. ) In what instance had the Government encou-
raged agitation ?—(Hear, hear.) He contradicted the ac-
cusation of the Noble Duke as fitly as the Noble Duke had
contradicted what had fallen from him.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Duke accused hint of encouraging agitation.
Ile contradicted tile truth of that.—(Cheers.) He said
there was no man in the country more anxious to put
agitation down.—(Hear, hear.) He was at first anxious
to give a fair trial to lenient measures, but when there was
necessity for the application of force, the disturbers of the
public peace would find that it was not less effectual be-
cause Government had previously proved a strong disposi-
tion to avoid its use.—(Cheers.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON—I did not—l never
did, and I never will, make a charge which I do not be-
lieve to be founded in fact.—(Cheers.) A year ago I re-
minded the Noble Lord that an Act which had passed
through both Houses of Parliament was about to expire ;
I asked him if lie intended to renew it. He said he did
intend to renew it.—(Cheers.) Parliament, however, was
dissolved ; the Act was not renewed, and it expired. The
Noble Lord at the head of the Irish Government thought
it was as well it had been suffered to expire ; he declared
that, upon consideration, he felt that he was able to govern
the country under the existing laws. Well, my Lords,
what was tie consequence ? Agitation began again ; there
was meeting after meeting from the moment this Act ex-
pired up to the present day.—(Cheers.) This is not all ;
the great agitator of all escaped the execution of the I OV
in consequence of this Act having expired.—(Contint.ed
cheering.) There was, perhaps, no reason why ; but let
this pass. What happened afterwards ? This great agi-
tator, on whom certainly it might be at least expected
that Government, if not inclined to countenance agitation,
would not shower the favours of the Crown—this agitator
received the greatest favour that any gentleman of the bar
ever received ; and this at the hands of Government—at
the hands, I may say, of the Noble Earl himself..._
(Cheers.) He received a patent of precedence, which plac. d
him next to the Attorney-General, and placed him above a
gentleman who had been Attorney-General himself.—
(Cheers.) My Lords, if this is not hulling out encourage-
ment to agitation—or at least to that great agitator—l
know not what can be considered as holding out encourage-
ment to any man, or, indeed, to any course of proceed-
ing.—(Cheers.) It is not only in this respect, or, in Ire-
la: only; that I consider agitation was encouraged. Let
as look to this country, and to what conclusion must we
come? Thor Noble Duke then proceeded' to say there were

thousan la of instances to show that the agitation in the ;
country bad been encouraged by his Majesty's Government
and their supporters. What else was the meaning of the
friends of Government going to public meetings which
had that object in view ? What else was the meaning of
the letter written by the Noble Earl opposite in answer to
the address of a Political Union ? What else was the
meaning of two Hon. G.ntletnen—ene of them holding a
place under his Majesty's Government, and the other a
Member of the other House of Parliament, collecting
mobs in the Regent's Park and elsewhere, on the morrow
of that memorable evening on which their Lordships had
rejected the Parliamentary Reform Bill? What else was
the meaning of publishing the order for the lines of march
which the various columns of the mob were to take dowu
upon St. James's, in the Government newspapers? What
could be inferred from all tn., but that Government was
favourable to agitation ? He did not mean to say the
Noble Earl opposite would be glad to see his (the Duke of
Wellington's) or the house of any other Noble Lord de-
stroyed ; but what he meant to say was, that at least the
negligence of that Noble Earl, and of his colleagues, was
the cause of the very serious agitation and disturbance
which had occurred. He (the Duke of Wellington) felt
this subject strongly. He felt that the country was in a
most dangerous state—he felt that his Majesty's Govern-
ment had not only taken no measures to stop the existing
agitation, but that they had allowed a Lord of the House-
hold, and others of their supporters, to go about and at-
tend public meetings, to preach up agitation to the people.
The Earl of ELDON on the first topic introduced
would give no opinion until the various negociations and
the public transactions in Europe respecting it bad been
concluded, except that it appeared to him that those who
had been the most strenuous opponents of interference hid
now become its warmest allies. On what was at present
going on in this country and Ireland, however, he begged
to be allowed to make a few observations. lie would ask
the Noble Lords from Ireland who were now present,
whether the powers of the common law (which he had
been told were as great in Ireland as in England) had ever
been put in execution in that country in order to prevent
it from falling into its present miserable state ; and
whether they did not conscientiously believe that to the
non-execution of those powers that state was attributable;
Let their Lordships look at what had been passing in Ire-
land- fie begged to know how it was that such shameful
proceedings as had taken place in Ireland had been allowed
to go on without any prosecutions having been instituted
on the subject? He would not presuire to say that they
were so; but if the speeches in the Irish Papers were
really the speeches of the persons to whom a Noble Duke
had alluded, and of Mr. O'Connell, he had no hesitation
in declaring that the Government of Ireland ought to be
brought to the bar of that House, fur riot having applied
the powers of the common law to punish those g!oss and
shameful violations of the law. Things were in such
a situation that the question was neither more nor lees
than whether or not the Government of Ireland was to
be allowed to exist?—(Hear, hear.) It was in truth
much the same in this country. It was idle to believe
that if the Reform Bill, as it had been offered to their
Lordships last Session, had passed, their Lordships would
have been long left sitting in that House. There was no
man who had been more deeply obliged to the father of
the late King—there was no man who had entertained a
more devoted attachment to the late King—there was no
man who entertained a firmer sense of allegiance to his
present Majesty than himself; and he had felt it his duty
distinctly to state, in the presence of a brother of his pre-
sent Majesty, that if that Reform Bill were to pass, the
consequence of the agitation which the universal suffrage
that it would create must produce, would he, that in the
courseof ten years there would not be a single member of
the House of Hanover on the throne.—(Hear, bear, hear.)
He would now say a few words on the subject of tithes in
Ireland. As to the advantage of the proposed commuta-
tion he would reserve himself until he saw the Bill upon
the subject before their Lordships. But let it be consi-
dered how the subject had been introduced to their notice.
It had been introduced by tirades of all kinds against the
clergy of Ireland. Those attacks had been accompanied
by similar attacks on the lay itnpropriators. In the vari-
ous petitions which had been presented to their Lordships,
it had been (federal that all property of that description
must be done away with. He was an old man, and he
remembered forty years ago, in 1790, 1791, and 1792,
when the people were convulsed in a manner similar to
that in which they were convulsed at present, reading
speeches containing the same sentiments, and uttered by
some of the same individuals. He begged to ask the Noble
and Learned Lord opposite, if there had been a single
prosecution in Ireland founded on any of the speeches to
which be alluded ? If Mr. O'Connell and others had mode
such speeches as those which had been attributed to them,
they ought to have been prosecuted. If they had not
made those speeches, then the publications in which those
supposed speeches were inserted ought to have been prose-
cuted. He did not believe that the Noble Earl supported
all this agitation. On the contrary, he was persuaded
that the Noble Earl was ashamed of its existence. But
why had such violations of the law been allowed to go on
so long, without any legal notice of them? lie repeated
that if the Reform Bill were passed, their Lordships would
riot long sit there ; and what was nearest his heart, if
things continued to go on long as they were going on at
present, the family which he hoped would long have re-
mained on the throne would cease to reign. That was
his conscientious opinion. He was so satisfied of this fact
that let the consequences be what they might, and let the
ob'ervation subject him to whatever misconstruction it
might, he would fearlessly say, that (as we understood the
Noble and Learned Lord, who, however, as we have already
observed, was at times scarcely audible) any of the Acts
of James the Second were as excusable as would be the
act of that Monarch who should give his sanction to such
a measure.—(Hear, hear.) It would prove a measure
the most destructive to the Constitution of England of any
measure ever resorted to by any Government. This
might he his last declaration in that House—it was a most
conscientious one. There was another point on which
he was desirous of making an observation or two. Ile
alluded to the letter which had been written by a Spiritual
Peer, in which that Right Rev. Prelate, speaking of those
of their Lordships who had opposed the measures of his
Majesty's Government, had denominated them " an igno-
rant faction ;" and in which that Right Rev. Prelate had
expressed his hope that the King would do that which he
(Lord Eldon) sincerely believed, if the King really did, he
would destroy the Constitutiou of the country. He really
could hardly believe that that letter was actually written
by the Right Rev. Prelate. Whether or nut he did,
however, he thought lie owed it to their Lordships, to the
Constitution, and to the country, to declare that the state-
ment that the opposition to the late Reform Bill was fac-
tious, was an inexcusable libel. For himself, he haul been
fifty years in Parliament, and he was not conscious of ever
having been influenced by a factious or a personally inte-
rested motive. He had never solicited any advaucement
in his profession but that which resulted from his own in-
dustry ; and he was sure that the great body of the people,
who enjoyed so many blessings under the Constitution,
would never attach the term "factious" to those whose
most strenuous efforts had been directed to preserve that
Constitution inviolate.—(Year.)
The Bishop of CHICHESTER observed, that the re-
marks of the Noble and Learned Lord gave him an oppor-
tunity of explaining what, however, he should have
thought did not require any explanation. The Noble and
Learned Lord took a (Efferent view of the question of Par-
liamentary Reform from that taken by him (the Bishop of
Chichester;. But be could not suppose that he intended
to apply the term faction, or ignorance, to the Noble and
Learned Lord. What he had stated in his letter was
merely a general pteipoeition. lie had said that should the
Huuse of Lords reject the measure at present in progress
with the alms precipitation as that with which they re-
jected the last, the Constitution provided a remedy for such
a factious opposition.—(Hear, hear.) He did not pre-
sume to compete with the Noble and Learned Lord in a
knowledge of the law and of the Constitution ; but he
certainly conceived that when the opposition in that
House arrived to a degree which rendered it inconvenient
and impracticable to pass measures necessary for the State,
there was a remedy in the hands of the Crown.—(Hear,
hear.) In the same manner as when the House of Com-
mons showed itself determined to oppose the just views of
any Government, the King had a right to put an end to
its existence—so he conceived, when the opposition in
that House at rived to a degree incompatible with the in-
tesest and prosperity of the country, the King had the
means of correcting that evil.—(Hear, hear.) lie begged
the Noble and Learned Lord to be assur d, and it the
Noble and Learned Lord haul read the letter in question
he would feel, that it was by no means his intention to use
the terms ignorant or factious, except in laying down a ge-
neral proposition. He was not aware that it was necessary
for him to say more, except to observe that he wrote the
letter in a hurry--that it was with reluctance he con-
sented to publish it—and had only consented to do so
upon earnest request. If he had intended it for the public
view, he might have guarded it from the misrepresenta-
tion—he was sure, an unintentional one—of its contents,
into which the Noble and Learned Lord had fallen.
Lord Viscount MELBOURNE would not follow the
ie department
Noble and Learned Lord into the questions of Reform and
hod fallen form twbehiNchubitlee
Duke, which applied
tithes. But some otaetrovattns
'(Lord Melbourne) had the honour to preside, and which,
therefore,
he felt it to be impossible to peas over. In the
first }.lacer the Noble Duke had charged his Majesty's Go-
!

verninent with having suffered the Proclamation Bill to
expire, and with not having moved for its renewal. With
respect to the effect of the Bill itself, while it was iu exist.
ence, be would refer again, as he had formerly referred,
to the opinion of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite,
who had said that its effect was nothing, that it had no
effect whatever, and that it was deserving only of derision.
But as to the expiration of the Bill, that was involved in
the dissolution of Parliament. If the dissolution of Par-
liament was wrong, the expiratioa of the Proclamation
Bill was unaccessaiy to that wrong. If the dissolution of
Parliament was right, the expiration of the Proclamation
Bill was involved in it. That the dissolution was not a
measure of a very reprehensible kind, he must conclude ;
for no motion of censure had been made against it; and if
such had been its character, he knew the manliness of the
Noble Duke's character too well not to be quite sure that
he would have brought it under the consideration of the
House. As to the non-renewal of the Proclamation Bill,
he appealed to all Noble Lords who knew anything of the
real condition of Ireland, whether that measure would in
the slightest degree have ruet the evils of that condition.
He defied the Noble Duke to show that the Proclamation
Bill, even if effective at all, would have bad any applica-
tion to the present circumstances of Ireland. 'The next point
to which the Noble Duke had adverted was the professional
honours which had been bestowed by the Crown on Mr.
O'Connell. For his part, he (Lord Melbourne) had al-
ways thought that it was a great injustice, and a great mis-
take, to withhold those honours from that gentleman at any
period of time. If any lawyer on the bench in Ireland
were asked if he was entitled to them, the answer would
be in the affirmative. There was nothing in the course
which Mr. O'Connell bad yet pursued (although he was
very far indeed from intending to speak of that course with
approbation) that, in his opinion, ought to have influenced
Government to deny him the professional honours which he
had received. They were given to him in consequence of his
professional conduct, and merits, and station ; and not with
any reference to his political career. Unless it could be
shown that there was something in the moral character of
any man which rendered it improper to confer such honours
upon him, they ought not, in his (Lord Melbourne's) opi-
nion, to be withheld. The Noble Duke had then alluded
to a letter written by one of his Noble colleagues ; but as
the Noble Duke had not read the passage of which he com-
plained, he (Lord M.) was not prepared distinctly to answer
the statement. If he understood the Noble Duke, his Noble
Friend had termed the declarations cf his opponents as "the
whisperings of a faction." Now was it likely that Noble
Lords, whether in or out of office, would restrain them-
selves, when speaking of the opinions of those from whom
they had just sustained a violeot political attack, to a de-
signation less strong than " the whisperings of a faction?"
He bad heard the expression over and over again. It was
the common—be begged pardon of their Lordships for
using so vulgar an expre-sion—but it was the common
slang of opposition. But then the Noble Duke stated,
that there had been a public meeting in the Regent's Park,
at which two Members of his Majesty's Government at-
tended.—(Nn, no ! Friends.) Friends ! How was it
possible that his Majesty's Government could be responsible
for the conduct of all its friends? He did not precisely
recollect the circumstance to which the Noble Duke
alluded. But the Noble Duke said, that the line of march
which the people were to take was pointed out in the
Government Papers. Did the Noble Duke mean the
Gazette ? There was no other Government Paper. His
Majesty's Government were very glad of all the support
which their friends in the Press gave them, but they really
could not be responsible for everything that appeared in
the columns of the Papers which maintained their cause, or
be expected to contradict every advertisement.—(A laugh.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON explained. In speak-
ing of the persons who had attended the meeting in the
Regent's Park, he had said that they were persons in the
confidence of his Majesty's Government; one of them in
office.—(Cries of " Name, name.") No, he would not
name them. With respect to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman on whom honours had been conferred by his
Majesty's Government, it seemed to he forgotten that that
Gentleman had been prosecuted under an Act existing at
the time of the prosecution—that lie had been convicted of
several offences against the law—and that he was not
sentenced to any punishment, merely because, in conse-
quence of the dissolution of Parliament, the Act under
which he had been tried expired. The Noble Viscount
had said that political differences ought not to stand in the
way of professional honour. But in the case in question
there were positive offences against the law, pronounced
by a Jury to be such, and saved from punishment merely
by accident.
Earl GREY expressed his satisfaction that the Noble
Duke, with the manliness which belonged to his character,
had stated the ground of the heavy charge which he had
brought against his Majesty's Government of having, if
not taken an active part in producing the existing agita-
tion, at least of encouraging it; although the Noble Duke
had afterwards seemed to consider that it was not so much
encouragement as negligence. As to the facts alleged by
ties Noble Duke in support of this charge, he (Earl Grey)
might refer for an answer to them to what had fallen from
his Noble Friend near him ; hut as there were some re-
marks personal to himself in the Noble Duke's statement,
it was of some consequence to him to say a few words
on his own account. First, then, as to the first of the
Noble Duke's proofs of negligence—the expiration of the
Proclamation Act—he (Earl Grey) perfectly remembered
the answer which he had formerly given to the Noble
Duke on the subject. It was intended to bring in a new
Bill before the expiration of the Act ; and what pre-
vented it was the sudden and unexpected dissolution of
Parliament. With that Parliament the Act expired; and
according to the best legal opinions en the subject, the
individual who had been prosecuted and convicted under
the Act, could not be brought up for judgment. Why
his Majesty's Government had not thought proper to pro-
pose the renewal of the Act, lie would shortly state. In the
first place, the sort of agitation which had since prevailed in
Ireland would in no degree be met by that Act. His Majesty's
Government were in hopes, and in those hopes they had
been supported by the Government of Ireland, that other
and effective means might be devised for suppressing the
existing agitation. In answer to the accusation that the
common law had not been allowed to operate in any part
of Ireland, he would refer to the county of Clare, to which
a special commission had been sent, and where prosecu-
tions had been instituted, and many persons convicted,
some of whom had paid the forfeit of their lives, and
t,thers had been transported. The consequence of this had
been, that in that part of Ireland tranquillity had been
restored. But then, it seemed a strong proof was afforded
of the disposition entertained by his Majesty's Govern-
ment to encourage agitation in Ireland, by the silk gown
which had been given to Mr. O'Connell. This had been
well answered by his Noble Friend. The Noble Duke,
however, said that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
committed legal offences. But were there no precedents
of honours conferred on individuals who had committed
legal offences? Were there not the cases of Sir Richard
Steele and Dean Swift ? The fact was that there was no
legal conviction; but even if there had been, that
would not of necessity exclude the individual from
advantages to which he was entitled. But he had
no hesitation in avowing distinctly and fairly (for
he was not one of those who wished to affect mys-
tery in such matters), that lie had hoped Mr. O'Connell
would have been brought to adopt a different line of con-
duct. He had been disposed to try the effect of concilia-
tion. He had hoped, that by conferring on the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman the honours to which his station in his
profession justly entitled him, a salutary result might have
been obtained. He had no hesitation in saying that in
that expectation lie bad been grievously disappointed.—
(Hear, bear, hear.) Noble Lords might make wheat ad-
vantage they thought proper of this admission, but he did
not repent the step be bad taken. The agitation was now
placed on different grounds. He denied that his Majesty's
Government had shown the slightest indisposition to resist
those who wanted to destroy tithes in Ireland. Wherever
exertion was practicable exertion had been made, and the
military had been employesi in Ireland in enforcing obedi-
ence to the law to an extent to which there was not an
example. With respect to the letters which had been al-
tleurdieodostot,n lfeoencnodimlelg
anothehavelyieeviemrtghee
oNnolbetleteDrsutkvehicoehultdvebree
merely answers to thanks, and which were carelessly, and
perhaps imprudently, expressed. As to the speeches made
ate iuv they were made by friends over whose
'esegs
Gnove'rnment had no controul. He did nut
klin'o)i‘til:titlisie•l'ite meetings,
the Not Duke had been able to accomplish;
but he (Lord Grey), whether in power or out of power,
had never found it practicable to controul the imprudence
of zealous advocates. If the Noble Duke possessed any
such controul over them, lie was more fortunate; and if
the Noble Duke read the papers which he called Govern-
ment papers, though they were most ably conducted, anti
often contained information of the most valuable nature,
he would see that they were not always conducted in
themen
tm oosrt
towards friendly spirithi
m
(Earl
G r e
ylls;
I‘lileajetesotyu'lsd Govern-
ment that
they ought not to be called Government Papers, if by Go-
vernment papers were meant papers that were under the in-
fluence of the Government. This was the amount of the
charges which the Noble Duke had produced, and this was
the answer that he gave to them—he had given no en-
couragement whatever to this agitation : on the contrary,
wherever agitation had appeared, resistance had been
offered to it by the Government, and it had been put
down.—( Hear.) He mast now make one or two obser-
vations upon what bad fallen from the Noble earl, wad

though the Noble Duke might think that what he

about to say was matter of accusation against the Noble
Duke's Aoverntuent ha could assure them it was not meant
so. It was said that the things which had been the subject
of notice by their Lordships ought to be put down. He
must observe, that these things had been in existence be-
fore they came into office. The Political Union at Bir-
mingham had been in existence since January, 1830 ; it
had produced a great excitement, and no measure had been
taken to put it down. The Trades' Union, too, had
existed for a long time—a considerable degree of agitation
had been produced by it—no measure had been taken to
put it down ; on the contrary, all that they found in the
office was a recommendation of the late Secretary of State
that these Unions should be made the subject of the con-
sideration of the Government. Before they came into
office, too, agitation had spread all round the country up to
the gates of the metropolis, nay in the very city itself, in
which riots took place, while fires were blazing in many
parts of the country? yet no power of the Government was
put forth to put an end to this state of things.—(Hear.)
As soon as the present Government entered upon office,
they did not lose an hour in sending down a Special Com-
mission, in emp'oying a military force, and in augmenting
the army, with a view to suppress these disturbances;
and they were suppressed.--(Hear.) Under these cir.
cumstances, he was justified in saying that the accusation
thus made was lightly and unsuccessfully made, when it
was asserted that the power of the Government was not
exerted for the maintenance of the public peace.—(lleac.)
He must now refer once more to these riots in the metro-
polis, for the purpose of alluding to the circumstance
mentioned by the Noble Duke, who complained that his
residence had been attacked. The Noble Duke surely
would give him credit for this—that notwithstanding any
political differences that might exist between them, he felt
the greatest regret that any individual, but especially that
the Noble Duke, should have been made the subject of
attack ; and he appealed to all his friends around him,
who were by office connected with the Government, and
to the Noble Commander-in-Chief who sat near him,
whether the utmost care was not taken, in a military point
of view, to protect evet y part of the town, but especially
to protect the residence of the Noble Duke.—(l-lear.) But
then it wag said, as another ground of accusation, that
there had been no prosecutions for libel. In the first
place there had been, where proofs sufficient could be got
at. He had heard the Noble and Learned Lou! say, on a
former occasion, that it was very easy for men to say, on
reading a paragraph, that it was a libel, but that it was
a very different thing when they came to the considera-
tion of the responsibility of the Attorney-General ; there
was evidence to he procured—there were Juries whose opi-
nions must be taken. When the Noble and Learned Lord
came to recollect these things, and consider these difficul-
ties, he would admit that it was not a question of a light
matter, whether a Paper should be submitted to a prose-
cution or not, though what they read might appear at the
time to be libellous ; and he must have leave to tell the
Noble Earl that all the libellous matter was not on one side
—(Cheers)—yet it would be exceedingly difficult in most
cases to procure evidence that would ensure a conviction.
Having said thus much, he should sit down, feeling that he
was freed from the weight of the accusation that had been
brought against him by the Noble Duke ; and he was sure
that when what he had now said came to be considered,
there was no reasonable man in the country who would say
that he had been guilty of any act of encouragement of
agitation, or that he had neglected the means of putting
it down ; nor any that would not readily admit he had
done all he could to put a stop to all agitation whatever.
The Earl of RODEN was prepared to show to any
man who understood the meaning of words, that the Go-
vernment had given protection, if not encouragement to
agitation. If the simple question were put, who was the
sg,,r,eeart ebset
_a tiart.o rin
o,e Ireland?onn el l
ft
hwouldat
wereno t h e universal
thef,act, w n- aaa
it
not also a fact that the Government had raised him to the
highest station in his profession ? The Noble Earl had
told them that the object of the Government was, in offer-
ing him this station, to prevent him from pursuing that
agitating course which he had before adopted. In fact it
was a bribe to him.—(Hear.) He did not know Mr.
O'Connell privately ; he knew him only as a public cha-
racter, and he must say that he considered that gentleman
as a most mischievous man. But he must say, at the same
time, that he more respected the hostility of Mr. O'Connell,
which was open, fair, and undisguised, than he did the
cold hollow friendship of those who professed themselves
the friends of Protestantism in Ireland. He should not
forget the conduct of Mr. O'Connell with respect to him-
self ; he thought both unmanly and unfair ; but he had
forgiven it, though he could not forget it ; but he never
could forgive Mr. O'Connell for being the greatest enemy
of the Protestant interests in Ireland.

Lord PLUNKETT as connected with the Irish Go-
vernment, and as an attack bad been made on that Go-
vernment, thought the House would excuse him fur wish-
ing to say a few words on this subject, and in defence of
the conduct of the Government. He wished that the
Noble Earl who had just sat down had presented the peti-
tion to which he had alluded, for it was involved in this
irregular discussion, the only object of which was to hold
out to the people of this country that the Government
was opposed to the maintenance of the religion of the
country. Whether the object they had in view was good
or not he would leave them to say ; but certain he was,
that whatever was done with respect to tithes, there was
no such effectual encouragement given to agitators, the
value of whose promises the people well appreciated, as
the opinions of the sort he had just alluded to, put forth
by persons of character and property, from whom, as these
opinions came with great gravity and weight, they came,
he must add, with great mischief. With respect to what
had been said about Mr. O'Connell, he would assert most
positively, that Mr. O'Connell could not be legally con.
vieted of any offence; he could not be legally convicted
by the verdict of a Jury. The state of his position
with regard to the law was this ; he had been indicted
under a certain Act of Parliament—he had suffered judg-
ment by default, and the Act on which he had been in-
dicted expired shortly afterwards. Now, if the Noble
and Learned Lord opposite would produce any autho
rities to show, that under such circumstances a con-
viction could legally exist, he should be ready to meet
the Noble and Learned Earl on that question. He
was himself ready to maintain the negative both on
principle and on authority. If he were right in that
opinion, that the judgment suffered by default under
such circumstances was one that he was at liberty to
arrest, surely they would not say that that punishment,
which could not be visited on him in point of law, should
be visited on hint in his professional character. He (Lord
Plunkett) was responsible for having affixed the Great
Seal to the patent of precedence to Mr. O'Connell. No
That,o
en l
rank
n dh
nextot vwaales:hvt
:tebsorr:;etutiosiinieaain:Kziirl
nesni:noet
g‘dht:esibti
man bad been more attacked for any act than he had been
for that ; he rested his defence ou the same grounds as
those who sat beside him. But he might also observe that
that Act was totally unconnected with any question of
politics, and the patent of precedence was given to Mr.
(owmsa
seen
notrvl.
above
pre'
Ortia(ths,,oncorisooeGnt egnedene grantednleol
tr.,ra,eeti
O'Connell only on account of his professional eminence.—
The ordinary way of granting a patent of precedence in
Ir
oenAmenitt:
at nokhretn doneer Attorney and
an ldfk'
tHneenhatnuocini
his head. Whatever he might think of Mr. O'Connell in
a political point of view, it was impossible to deny that in
his profession no individual exhibited higher attainments,
nor was any more worthy of the distinction he had re-
ceived. That being the case, the Government was bound
to accord him the distinction. It was the object of a rational
Government not to be vindictive, but just, and the gift of
the patent of precedence was required by justice. He
t which
aEarl
opposite Loe t g
wr,tei
had
-
it
wt
should have been happy if, by that mark of kindness, not
hicompatib'e with their duty, Mr. O'Connell had been in-
tduiliecea,
what
to
oho
abdet
expectatka
ke
taken
place.
ehimselfhighest
thii,sornph,re,oufreisobi
bouiltet bei
E could n
,t
spoken against agitators. They were to be condemned.—
but if he (Lord Plunkett) was asked who was the agitator,
lie should say, that it was the person who collected toge-
ther large mobs of ignorant persons—who addressed them
in a manner calculated to raise their jealousies, and revive
their prejudicess—who addressed Engiisb people, and called
upon them to form Protestant associations—telling them
that he loved the Catholics as men, but that there was a
set of people who wished to put down the Protestants
and their religion. Such a person was the true agitator.
Such a person, who thus collected these ignorant assem-
blies together and scattered among them ambiguous—no,
not ambiguous, but unfounded assertions—such a person
risked the making of Irish agitation not only formidable
but desperate.—(Hear, hear.) To accomplish that fearful
object in Ireland, all that was wanted was—not a war
against the State—not a war against the tithes—but a war
between the Protestants and Catholics.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble and Learned Earl opposite had been prophe-
sying —he told them that he had begun prophesying forty
years ago. lie (Lord Plunkett) sincerely hoped that the
Noble and Learned Lord might live for forty years more to
prophesy, and be sincerely hoped, too, that the Noble and
Learned Earl's prophecies might be, at the end of that
time, as visionary as they had been up to this moment,_.
(Hear, hear.) He should now say a word en the state-
ment that the law was not vindicated.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble and Learned Earl bad said that the law
was the same in England as in Ireland. He be:ieved that
it was in the abstract, that, as far as the letter of the
law went, the guilt of enterieg into a conspiracy to refine

payment of tithes was in both countries the s une ; but it
was a very different thing for the Chancellor to furnish
the Attorney-General with the abstract principle of the
law, and to tell him that such was the law, and for the
Attorney-General to carry on a prosecution under it. In
these prosecutions there were such things as witnesses, and
Jurors, and the public, all of whom were to be consi-
dered ; but he would venture to say that in every instance
in which an outrage had been committed, a prosecution
had been instituted, had been successful, and the authority
of the law bad been vindicated by the punishment of the
offender. Although he was not the public prosecutor, lie
was not insensible to the duties of the office. Ile had
communicated with the law officers of the Crown in Ire-
land, and with the distinguished and very learnediperson
who filled the office of Attorney-General ; and he would
venture to assert that in no instance in which a prosecu-
tion could be successfully instituted had that prosecution
been neglected. If the Noble and Learned Earl opposite
would ask for the papers connected with this subject, lie
would undertake to show from those papers that what he
had stated was really the case. If the Noble and Learned
Earl could, out of all the papers, select an instance to the
contrary, he should adopt that Noble Lord's advice, or en-
deavour to satisfy him that he was wrong.

The Earl of ELDON asserted, that if the information
against Mr. O'Connell had been filed by an English Attor-
ney-General, it would have contained counts that would
have rendered it impossible for him to escape. But put-
ting all that out of the question, there had been many
speeches delivered of so libelous a nature, that if they had
been prosecuted, conviction must have followed. He was
convinced that Ireland had been brought into the state in
which it was at present because the power of the common
law had not been applied in time to remedy the evil.
The Earl of RODEN defended the meetings at which
he had been present, and accused the Noble and Learned
Lord opposite of having unjustly called them, on a former
occasion, senseless factions,
Lord PLUNKETT denied that term, but said he had
spoken of factious agitators, who, however, he had been
obliged to admit bad some sense on their side, for they bad
grievances to complain of, while the other side had none.

- Lord RODEN asserted, that the meetings of the Pro-
testants bad been composed of all the men of respectabi-
lity, intelligence, and property in the country.
The Earl of GOSFORD knew many Protestant gen-
tlemen of Ireland—sensible men, and men of wealth and
rank, and of the highest respectability—who had not at-
tended at these meetings, and who dreaded the violence
and extravagance of language there made use of. —(Hear,
hear.) He protested, therefote, against the assertion of
the Noble Earl, that these meetings were attended by all
the wealth, knowledge, property, and respectability of the
country. He declared that that was not the case, as would
be shown, perhaps, on some future occasion; and if one-
tenth part of what was said at these meetings was cor-
rectly given to the public, be thought it was the duty of
every Christian to passe before he joined them.
Lord WICKLOW said the Noble and Learned Lord op-
posite had called these meetings factious—he had called
both sides factions, but had condemned one as dangerous
and the other as senseless and impotent. It was a matter
of regret that be should thus convert himself into a par-
tisan. The Noble and Learned Lord saw he was attacked
from all parts—in other words that he was censured by all
parties. That that censure was a proof of abuse or of ma-
lice was an erroneous opinion ; but it was a proof that the
Lord Chancellor ought not to he a political character. The
late Chancellor, during all the political excitement in that
country, was never the subject of attack or abuse, because
he never mixed himself up with the troubles of Irish po-
litics. On the subject of the promotion of Mr. O'Connell,
it was curious to observe how the Noble Viscount and
the Noble Earl at the head of the Government contra-
dicted each other. The Noble Viscount said that the pro.
motion was given solely on account of Mr. O'Connell's
legal knowledge—the Noble Earl's representation made it
appear that it was given to influence Mr. O'Connell's opi.
nion. How could these statements be reconciled with
each other ? As to the administration of the law in Ire-
land with a view to suppress agitation, he should mention
two facts. He had been assured by a Magistrate that there
was an Irish gentleman, a Member for the county, who
addressed the people of his county to excite them to refuse
the payment of tithes; the Magistrate sent some persons
to verify this fact, and then reported it to the Government,
together with another recommendation of the same gentle-
man, that if the distrainers of tithes came they should
attack them with sticks. The answer of the Government
to the communication was, that the information might
themselves prosecute the person referred to. Another case
was this :—There was an officer in his Majesty's service on
half-pay who had placed himself at the head of a large
body of people. That fact had been communicated to the
Government, who took no notice of it. It the Noble Earl
opposite doubted this, he would give his authority ; but
he objected to do it in this public manner at such a critical
time as this.—(Hear, hear, from the Treasury Bench.)
He did not understand the meaning of that cheer froth
Noble Lords opposite—they might be indifferent to the
lives of people entrusted to their charge—(Order, order)--
he had perhaps spoken in stronger terms than he ought.--
(Hear, hear.) The evil at present was, that the present
Government were not thought favourable to tithes. He
had before mentioned a motion made in 1824 by a Mem-
ber of the present Government. He had been called on
to produce proof. He had found it, and also another de-
bate on the same subject in the preceding year. The re-
solution he had referred to was in these terms—" That
the Church property was set aside by the State for the
maintainance of the State religion, and that it was in the
power of Parliament to apply it in any mode that was best
calculated for the support of that religion." When that reso-
lution was moved, the Noble and Learned Lord opposite bad
given it the character of desperation and folly. In the follow-
ing year a motion was brought forward, declaring that
" it was expedient to inquire whether the present charges
of the Church of Ireland were not more than commensu-
rate with the duties fperformed, both in regard of the
number of persons employed, and the emolument received
by them." Among the names of the minority on that
occasion, where those of Brougham, Ellis, Rice, and
several others who now formed part of the Government.
The efforts of these opponents of the Church did not,
however, then create any alarm—they excited only the
ridicule and scorn of the friends of the Establishment, ee
they were met by the opposition of a vigorous Govern-
ment. It was, in his opinion, the duty of Government
to say that they were determined to maintain the Esta-
blished Church of the country. This the present Govern-
ment had not done, and be blamed them for the omission.
Oa the occasion to which he had referred, the Noble and
Learned Lord opposite said he would not sail in the same
vessel with the proposer of that motion and his friends ;
and now he was in the same vessel with them, and now
it became his duty to guide the rudder, if *udder there were
any, so as to save the vessel from destruction.
The E of GOSFORD explained.
Earl GREY had never said that the object of giving
the patent of precedence to Mr. O'Connell was to influence
him in favour of the Government. He had only said, that
giving it as he had done for professional eminence, he
should have been glad if at the Fame time it had produced
a conciliatory effect on Mr. O'Connell's mind. When the
Noble Earl said that the Government ought to make de-
clarations with respect to the stability of the Church, he
forgot the King's speech, which wag constitutionally to he
considered as the speech of the Ministers, and in which
that recommendation of the Noble Earl had been anti-
cipated. ar. )

The LORD CHANCELLOR apprehended, that if he
began by stating that he not occupy their Lord-
ships' attention long, they would have a right, from their
observation of the debate of to-night, to draw this con-
clusion, that he intended to speak at considerable length.
__(Hear, and a laugh.) He could, however, assure them
that he should only say a few words on what the Noble
thatte Established
ts Eit,aelbriliihooet nd i
n aChurch
was former
o 0 oft i
ji Ireland
had now, for the second time, brought before the
House. He had, lie could truly say, with no personal dis-
respect to the Noble Earl, dismissed time matter once
before mentioned, from his thoughts. He had en-
tirely forgotten the terms of the 'motion when- the
Noble
lrg occasion,elaon;i the; describedbu t
s o her ti t as tear-
ing up by the roots, or pulling down (he forgot which)
h
was
de-
scribed.
asure
He had told their Lordships so at the time; and
he might appeal to them—nay, he might almost appeal to
the Noble Earl—whether his assertion had not new been
fully borne out. With the gentlemen with whom he had
then been associated he had acted cordially. They might
have been opposed to a vigorous Government.—the Noble
Earl was plcased to say they were—but that they were the
ridicule and scorn of that Government he, front a constant
uniCorm knowledge of the campaigns in which—for the
rights of the people of England, for the rights of the
people of Ireland, for the advantages of the Constitution
itself—they had been engaged, he begged most solemnly to
deny.—(Cheers.) That they were ever ridiculed and
scorned by any Ministry to which they were ever opposed
he mos t humbly,
denied.—(Year, ed.( Ir, ha
t brit
_ms
eta confidently,er.) all
ine h
presencead:
however,
woevf
around him,
lived to see an Opposition in another place, of which he
should say nothing but this—that with the advantage of
talents and of high names, they were pursuing a course of
conduct most dangerous to the peace, prosperity, and sta-
bility of the Government, and of the settled institutions of
the country. Now they carried on political warlare all
might see, and lie must say that, in all his observations of
Parliamentary contests, he bad never beheld more rancour;

more political rancour, than he had seen displayed towards
the present Government by the present Oprosition.
The Earl of RODEN disclaimed the use Of personal
attacks. lie had nut used the words scorn and ridicule in
the manner imputed to him. He did not say that the Op-
position had been the scorn and ridicule of the Govern-
ment, but of the friends of the Church, when they saw
that Opposition met by a vigorous Government. As to
the spirit of the Opposition, it had been as bitter and ma-
levolent in farmer times as any that now existed:
Lord LORTON was convinced that the present evils in
Ireland arose from the system of concession, and till that
Was put an end to, there would be a war of interests in the
country.
Several Bills were brought up from the Commons, and
read a first time.—Adjourned at a Quarter to Nine.