The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-19 00:00:00

SPECIAL CONSTABLES' BILL.

The Special Constables' Bill went through Committee, the
Report was brought up by Mr. BERNAL, and the Bill was
ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
ST. MARGARET'S RECTORY BILL.
_ _

On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the St. Mar-
garet's Rectory Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow.
CHARITY COMMISSION BILL.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL brought up the Report
on the Charity Commission Bill, which was received, and the
Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
BANKRUPTS' ESTATE BILL.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved that the House
agree to the Lords' amendments on this Bill.
After some observations from Mr. Tooke, the Solicitor-Ge-
neral, Mr. Warburton, and Mr. Pryme,
Mr. WARBURTON proposed a verbal amendment to the
clause, which was then put and agreed to.
On the next clause being read,
Mr. TOOKE would again repeat the objections he had
urged, to giving the power of fine and imprisonment to two
additional Commissioners, instead of referring the case of con-
tempt to the Court of Review, which being a superior Court
was not likely to be influenced in its adjudication by the feel-
ings of those more immediately interested. He should take
the sense of the House upon the question, as he thought it an
innovation, on the liberty of the subject.
Mr. WARBURTON differed from the Hon. Member as
to the clause being an innovation on the liberty of the subject,
and would support the clause.
Mr. Serjeant WILDE thought some misapprehension
existed upon what really was a contempt of Court. It would
be most improper to limit the power of the Commissioners to
what took place in the hearing of the Court. Contempt of
Court of a very aggravated nature might occur without the
parties being in the immediate neighbourhood of it, and it
would be most unwise to limit the power of the Commis-
sioners in such cases.
Mr. WIL KS observed that constructive contempts were
growing into an evil, which should be met and suppressed.
He thought there was nothing objectionable in the powers
granted by the clause.
The other clauses were then put and agreed to.
TONNAGE ADMEASUREMENT BILL.

On the motion of Mr. P. THOMPSON, the Tonnage Ad-
measurement Bill was read a third time and passed.
CUSTOMS ACTS.

Mr. BERNAL brought up the Report of the Committee
on the Customs Acts Bill.
TIMBER DUTIES BILL.

On the motion of Mr. P. THOMPSON, this Bill went
through Committee, and was read a third time.
SPIRIT LICENSES BILL.

On the motion of Mr. F. BARING, this Bill was read a
second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.
CLERK OF THE CROWN BILL.
On the motion of Mr. BARING this Bill was committed.
INSOLVENT DEBTORS' FUND BILL.
On the motion of the same HON. GENTLEMAN this Bill was
read a second time ; as was also the Exchequer Bills Bill.
FORGERIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE this Bill was
read a second time; as was also the Court of Exchequer
(Scotland) Bill.
LARCENIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion that the Report be brought up,
Mr. G. F. YOUNG rose and said he wished to put a ques-
tion to the President of the Board of Trade. He had en-
deavoured to be in the House when the Tonnage Admeasure-
ment Bill was read a third time, and had left the York Com-
mittee several times for that purpose. He had missed it how-
ever, and he now wished to ask whether the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had any objection to laying on the table the Report of
the Committee on which this Bill was founded?

Mr. P. THOMPSON—The Report w•as already on the
table of the House. It had been laid on the table last year,
and this Bill was the same as the one that had been postponed
last year.

Mr. YOUNG—Then will the Right Hon. Gentleman allow
it to be printed ? From personal trial, he found it impossible
to carry into effect the provisions of the Bill that bad been
carried through the House.
The Report, we believe, was ordered to be printed, and the
Report of the Larcenies (Ireland) Bill was brought up.

SHERIFFS' (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. O'LOGHLEN, on moving that the Report be brought
up, took occasion to refer to a certain clause in the Bill,
giving compensation (as we understood) to the Chief Re-
membrancer, Mr. Blake. The Hon. and Learned Gentlema
.i
read a letter; but from the low tone of voice in which he
spoke, we found it impossible to catch the meaning of it. We
believe, however, it was a letter from Mr. Blake, declining to
accept of any compensation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
that the letter was in the highest degree creditable to Mr.
Blake, and it was gratifying to him to have that opportunity
of so expressing his opinion. It got rid of a great difficulty
in the way of the Bill, and would prevent inconvenience to
the public service.

Lord MORPETH said, that the intention expressed by
Mr. Blake in this letter was precisely similar to what he had
formerly expressed.

Mr. JACKSON bore test;nony to the character, capa-
bilities, and talents of Mr. -Blake.
Lord M 0 RPETH bro.,,ght up the Report.
CONSTABLIL:tRY FORCE.—IRELAND.
The House then went into Committee on the Constabulary
Force in Ireland
Colonel PE r.IOE VAL could not help rising to express his
unqualified approbation at the greater portion of the details of
this Bill.

[At tills declaration considerable surprise was manifested in
the countenances of the Members, both on the Ministerial and
Opposition benches. An Hon. Member on the latter re-
min•led the Speaker of what he had just said.]
Colonel PE RC E VA L—(after a pause)—Disapprobation I
-meant.—(Laughter.) I have made a very great mistake, and
and I do not wonder at the Noble Lord (Morpeth)
looking at me so very hard.—( Loud laughter.) He
should like to know on what grounds the Government at-
tempted to degrade the unpaid and independent niagi,.
Ireland by depriving them of the power of select, .racy of
—a duty for which no men were more cow- he pollee
etent betr4, men
of property, and interested in the per,-.,e an
de -being of the.
country? Why should these me:„
v:t. aside,
and thht power
transferred to some creatures of the Lord Lieutenant? Ac-
cording to the present "ssill, they were to have inspectors for
each county, and sivr,g, paymasters. He admitted one-half
of the expense of that was to be paid out of the consolidated
funhered, but ether half was to be paid by the county. Again,
t to be one inspector, not less than four sub-inspectors,
and r...0t less than six chief constables, or more thanl 8. At present
tl-,4 had only four chief constables, and one inspector who acted
AS paymaster. He challenged the Noble Lord to state any
ground for this measure, which would have the effect of in-
:Meting double the present expence on all the counties io
Ireland. In his opinion the Bill was absurd throughout i the
whole control was given to the Lord-Lieutenant, and hr might
exercise the capricious authority that was given him as he
chose. There was an oath appended to the which he
'wished to know from the Noble Lord whethr:„.it intended
to operate in aid of that oppression. which had was
hitherto
been exercised towards OranT:dnen, and whether all men
belonging to Orange sil.:aeties were to be called upon
to take that oath befe-,c they entered into the police ? He
!wished tom know ;'nether that oath was intended as a trap to
catch th, -.11 order that they might be punished as the men
at Ross -4er, ?
I:urd MORPETH thought with the Hon. and Gallant
I:iiember, that second thoughts were generally best; but he
considered that the Hon. and Gallant Member had taken a
most erroneous course when he altered his first impression in
lavour of the Bill. The Honourable and Gallant Member
had asked whether his Majesty's Government intended by this
Bill to pass any slur upon the general body of the magistracy
and the police force in Ireland. He begged to assure the
Hon. and Gallant Member that his Majesty's Government
bad no ,!such intention or motive, nor had they brought for-
ward the Bill with any such design. He admitted the yo-
lice force of Ireland to be on the whole a valuable institution,
contributing largely to the public peace and welfare; but there

1 • teas a general want of control in its rn,..t.narOm'ent, ai.d
there were many imperfections ebeut it Which, it brought un-
der strict control, would make it much more serviceable.
With respect to the Magistrates, his Majesty's Government,
in doing wlsat they had done by the present Bill, were only
follewiegt an example which in many counties had been set by
the Nla,gistrates themselves, who had voluntarily resigned
1 their power. believing that it would be exercised much mot
I to the public good by the highett 510 en'Ost responsible
quarter—the Government of thf`, eolintry.—( Hear, hear.)
It was well known that the constabulary force in Ireland
was divided into fourportions, according to the provinces, with-
out
any head, and all the finance and internal arrangements
were thrown upon the Under Secretary, who had duties
enough otherwise to perform. It was for this reason that the
Government proposed to appoint one Inspector General, re-
siding at Dublin Castle, instead of the four provincial Inspec-
tors General. Their salaries amounted to 5,432/., while that
of the new Inspector General and his Deputy would he only
1.6001. It was also proposed to appoint an inspector for each
county, and to entrust the duty of paymaster and store-keeper
to a clerk, with a salary of 1001., but these salaries
were all subject to the opinion of the House in Com-
mittee, It was not intended to interfere with the
existing police force, and the Lord Lieutenant would have a
power of increasing that force when occasion required it. He
' was opposed to any increase, on the burdens of the people ;
and it would be seen that the expense of the proposed force
would not exceed that of the present one. He estimated it
thus. Under the contemplated plan, the salary of the In-
spector would be 1,0001. —the Sub-Inspector, 6001,—Inspectors
of Counties, 11,900/.—Thirty-two Paymasters and Clerks,
3,200/.—Eiglity Sub Inspectors, 7,4001.—Tw0 hundred and
fifty-six Chief Constables, 12,500/.—And besides this there
would be a subsidiary force, whose pay would amount to about
1,637/. The whole forming a total of 41,2001. ; while the
expense of the system as at present constituted was 44,2391.
But the largest reduction, and that from which he hoped to
derive the most beneficial results, was from the Superannuation
Fund that he proposed to introduce.—( Hear, hear.) The
Gallant Member (Colonel Perceval) had adverted to the
oath proposed to be taken by the police-officers, and from the
stress which he laid on the oath, it would appear that it had
most excited his anger. It seemed to him (Lord M.) that
the very words of the oath signified that it was not to have a
retrospective tendency. The officer is to swear that he
" does not now belong to, and will not join any secret,
or political society whatever." No one, therefore, could
complain, as unless he was prepared to take the '.,ath he need
not present himself. If any Orangeman ';.as at present an
officer, he would have an opportunity .4t considering whether
he should remain in the police or retire from it, but if he did
not choose to leave such secret. societies, he would be debarred
from keeping Isis station in the police force.—(Cheers.)
And surely when the Noble and Gallant Member told
them that there were few recruits for the army or
the police that did not belong to secret or political societies,
and when he saw the hazard that these societies were to the
peace and good-will that ought to prevail in Ireland--( Loud
cheers)—surely it was time to look to the state of the Army.—
( Loud cheers. )—The police ought not to have a suspicious cha-
racter among those whose peace they were to protect, or if they
thought--no matter how erroneously—that they were leagued in
societies contrary to their interests, and that they existed only to
exert an injurious supremacy over them. Respecting the case
of New Ross, the police were dismissed from the service be-
cause they declined to answer questions which were put to
them, and not because they belonged to Orange Lodges.
They refused to answer questions that were put to them in
the course of an enquiry which it was thought by the Govern-
ment to be incumbent on them to prosecute. He would not
offer any further observations on the general character of the
Bill, but there were certain points which he would be very
ready to discuss at the proper time.
Mr. F. SHAW contended that the effect of this Bill would
be to vest immense power and patronage in the hands of the
Irish Government, and to supersede the Magistracy of the
country. lie did not object to there being one Inspector to
the whole police force, but he wished to make some observa-
tions respecting the second clause—that relating to County In-
spectors, which appeared to him to be a most important clause.
They were to have Inspectors for every county, and these
were to take forthwith the oath taken by Justices, and, there-
fore, to become Justices of the Peace. If this were so,
and they were to have salaried justices of the peace, theSo
inspectors would virtually supersede the unpaid magistracy,
and this introduced, in his opinion, a most impolitic principle.
There would be no saving of expense, but even if it did, they
would be obliged to purchase it at too dear a rate. He
thought it a very dangerous and unconstitutional principle
respecting the oath proposed to be taken. The Noble Lad
had let out what had led to the adoption of that oath, It was
to exclude Orangemen.—( Lord Morpetli—" All party
men.") He did not think so. The Noble Lord had said
that if an Orangeman were to present himself, he must be pre..
pared to leave all secret societies. Respecting the inquiry at
New Ross, he thought the proceeding was illegal—it was not
only contrary to the constitution but to the law. It seemed to
him unconstitutional to oblige the police to clear themselves by
what was called a voluntary affidavit. He thought that the
system of persecution (for persecution he would call it) car-
ried on by the Irish Government would not have the effect de-
sired.—( Hear, hear.) There was, be contended, on the part
of the Government of Ireland a spirit of persecution carried On
by a particular class. The tendency of this would be, and had
been, to increase the very body they were endeavouring to put
down.—(Hear, hear, from Colonel Perceval.) Suppose a
law was passed to exercise such authority over his Gallant
Friend (Colonel Perceval), as to say to him, that if he did not
cease to be an Orangeman, he should not have a seat in that
House—he was sure that his Gallant Friend had too much
spirit to yield to such authority, and he could tell the Noble
Lord, that the more he proceeded with persecution against
these Societies, the more they would increase. He must, at
the same time, say, that he was opposed to these Societies, and
he was opposed to this persecution, because it would lead to
the establishment of such Societies. It was symptomatic of
an unsound state of society. He did not deny that these So-
cieties ought to be discouraged, but it was not possible to put
them down by the means adopted by the Government—
( Hear, hear,) In this case the oath proposed to be taken
would not reach those whom it ought to be intended for.
The ribbon-men would be able to swear that he no longer be-
longed to any secret or illegal body, and yet substantially he
would still belong to it. These parties had too well learnt
the lesson that had been taught them. They knew too well
how to evade all tests of this nature. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman opposite (Mr. O'Connell) had often boasted that
he could drive a coach and six through an Act of Parliament,
and did the Noble Lord think that these ribbon-men would not
find advisers to show them how to evade this Act of Parliament.
He did not see how the Bill could be made effective, for the
fact was that the Orangemen called their Society a religious
Society. It was useless to attempt to legislate for such a
state of society as that in Ireland upon general principles. He
could not but deprecate this measure, and he must say that
since the Noble Lord had administered the affairs of Ireland,
he had done very little to obtain the confidence of the Irish
gentry, whose Church he had taken away, and now sought to
deprive them of their independence.
Lord MORPETH, notwithstanding the sweeping denun-
ciations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, admitted that it would
be quite as well to have fewer ex officio Magistrates.
Lord CLEMENTS made some observations respecting
the mode of paying the Magistrates.
Lord MORPETH would ask his Noble Friend how he
justified the people of England, Scotland, and Ireland being
compelled to pay for the police of the metropolis ?
Lord CLEMENTS--I did not justify it : I voted against it.
An HoN. Mooch, on the Opposition side, whose name
was unknown in the Gallery, opposed the Bill.
Mr. R. PLUNKETT did not see any great objections to
the Bill--get it into Committee, and then lie had no doubt
they would discuss it without any party feeling.—( Hear, hear.)
The House then went into Committee upon the Bill.
Colonel PE !WE VA L wanted to know whether any of the
four Inspectors-General were to be appointed to the new
office.

Lord AIORPETII did not feel that he should give any pro-
mise upon the subject.
Colonel PERCEVAL—Then the Noble Lord does not
care for the expense, for these men must have retiring al.
lowanct•s.

The first clause was agreed to.
On clause 2 being proposed,
Lord CL E 11 E NTS objected to the Appointment of a Pay-
master. The County Inspector might do the duty. He had
not much to do now.
Lord NIOI,ZP F.T
tan much to ti-H found that the Inspectors had indeed
and therefore it was that they proposed to
have a t.ard working clerk under him, who would also have
er.-.,ugh to do—as he would be made storekeeper, and also
barrack-master. He moved that the clause be omitted.

Mr: WALKER thought that the clause was unnecessary,
for he knew that in many cases the Inspectors had not their
full time employed. He would have no objettlon to give the
Inspector 401. for a clerk, but he must oppose the appoint-
ment of A. new officer at 1001. He seconded the amendment.

Mr. O'BRIEN opposed the Bill, as it would increase the
taxation of the country.
Mr. SEIA \V thought the Bill would be very useful, but he
was afraid it would supersede the other magistracy of the
count The salary must be adapted to the office, and he
th u Jught not to be higher.
M S RICE said in his county the Magistrates found that
they could not go on without the assistance of a paid Magis-
trate nut to supersede them, but to assist and direct them upon
r)oints.
Mr. FRENCH objected to the increased expense which the
Bill would put on the people, which they could ill afford.
After some observations from Colonel PERCEVAL and Lord
MORPETH, the clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clauses 3 and 4 were agreed to.

Mr. O'BRIEN objected to the sth clause.
After some few observations from Lord MORPETII which
were inaudible in the gallery, the clause, with some few verbal
amendments, was agreed to.
On Clause 6th being read,
Lord CLENIENTS did not think it necessary to have so
many persons as were provided for in the Clause to be Chief
Constables of Police.

Mr. WALKER thought some alteration should be made in
the Clause. What he (Mr. Walker) would propose was, that
the Lord Lieutenant should have the power of appointing any
number of second class chief constables, which, when taken
with the number of Inspectors, shall not exceed the number of
Baronies, or half Baronies in the county—with a proviso,
that if the county should be placed under the provisions of the
Peace Preservation Act, in such case the Lord Lieutenant
may increase the number of Chief Constables pro tempore.
Mr. JEPIISON thought even this number would be too
great, and the expense would be almost ruinous to some
counties. '

Lord MORFETH—The Hon. Gentlemaß seemed to have

ut of his view altogether the discretion that was vested, by the
Act, in the Lord Lieutenant. He would propose an addition
to the clause, to the effect that the salary of every such chief
constable shall not exceed 70/. per annum.
After a few words from Captain JONF;fi,
Lord CLEMENTS wished that the number would be
sprtified. Whatever the minimum number was, he should
wish it to be inserted.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 7 being read, which empowers the Lord-Lieute-
nant to appoint any additional number of polka ecnnt!iblel on
an application from seven or t,mre Magistrates of any county,
Mr. WA.LKER proposed that the words should he inserted
" having landed property situate within such county of the
yearly value of 3001. or upwards." This qualification would
be of very great importance, as it would require the
rence of a large landed proprietary before I.lcli an application
could be addressed.

Mr. O'BRIEN had no objection to a qualification in point
of property, but he would suggest, as an amendment, that such
application should emanate from a majority of the Magistrates
of the County assembled at any General or Special Sessions,
such majority not to be less than seven.
Captain JONES would press upon the Noble Lord to
omit the clause altogether.

Mr. O'LOGHLEN begged the House to recollect, that no
addition could be made to the number of constables,
a public meeting, and those who did not attvit,l the Meeting
had no right to complain.
After a short conversation, h which several Members joined,
Mr. RUTH VEN considered that Magistrates under the
directions of absentees, the most objectionable Magistrates in
Ireland. He believed that a great many of them, in
the discharge of their duties, only considered the interest
of those who were seldom, if ever, in Ireland. In his opi-
nion, if the discretion were not left in the Lord Lieutenant,
it would be much better not to pass the Bill at all.
After some observations from Mr. WALKER and Colonel
PERCEVAL, the amendment was withdrawn, and the clause
was agreed to with some verbal amendments.
On clause 8 being proposed to stand part of the Bill,
Mr. F. FRENCH object-A to the clause.
Lord MORPETII ',nought the clause would be productive
of very great -,„vantages.
Lord '_,LEMENTS supported the clause.
PERCEVALCoIoneI thought it was hard, when a system
was in existence that was so well constructed, and had done so
much good for the country, that it should be altered without
showing any good cause. He did not see why the House
should take away from the Magistrates the power of recom-
mending those persons they might think proper.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that the magistrates themselves had considered that it was
nit right that the appointment should be in themselves, as
they felt convinced if it was, a species of favouritism would
b.; exercised; they, therefore, at their first meeting
placed the appointment in the hands of the Government.
The consequence of the new arrangement would be that these
men would be much more cautious how they acted. They
would feel that they were not appointed by Lord so and so,
or Mr. so and so, who would carry them through thick and
thin, and protect them in any impropriety of conduct.—( Loud
cries of " Hear.") For these reasons he thought no objection
could be fairly urged against the clause.
Mr. RUTHVEN was of opinion that the more they were
removed from local sources of appointment the better. He did
not like to hear unqualified praise lavished upon this body, al-
though he admitted that in some instances they had done their
duty properly and fairly. But when removed from the county
in which they were brought up, they were always better con-
ducted.

Col. PERCE VAL thought some explanation should be
given by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) of the sweeping charge he had made agaiost
the police force.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt per-
fectly justified in the statement he had made relative to the
impolicy of local appointments in that body.—( Hear.)
Mr. F. FRENCH, in answer to the assertion that the
peace preservation force was more respectable than the re-
gular constabulary, would state that such was by no means the
case.--( Hear, hear.) The former had been guilty of many
acts of insubordination and misconduct, which could not fairly
be charged upon the latter.
After a few words from Mr. WALKER and Mr. VESEY,
The clause was agreed to, as was also clause 9.
On clause 10 being read, which gives the Lord Lieutenant
the power of incorporating the peace preservation force with
the constabulary,
Sir R. FERGUSON (as we understood him) feared that
the tendency of this clause would be to throw a very great
additional expense upon the counties.
Mr. O'BRIEN thought it was one of the most useful clauses
in the Bill.

Mr. WYSE also approved the clause.
Mr. F. FRENCH agreed with the Hon Member for Lon-
donderry, that the clause would tend to encrease the expense
upon the public. Its tendency would be to render the peace
preservation force, which was only appointed to meet emer-
genices, a permanent force.
Clauses 10 and 11 were agreed to.
On clause 12 being proposed,
Lord C LEM E NTs moved an amendment to give the con-
stables a power of removing nuisances on the public roads.
Colonel PERCEVAL hoped the Noble Lord would per-
severe in his motion. It was a monstrous thing that now when
the police constables saw a gross nuisance on the highway they
were without the power of removing it.
Mr. SPRING RICE opposed the amendment, upon the
ground that if you give them such a power, where part of
the penalty for a nuisance went to the informer, the police
would soon find out that it was a much more profitable matter
to seize pigs, &c., than to attempt to preserve the peace.
Lord Al ORPETH had no objection to insert a few words
directing the rules and regulations to be sent to the Clerk of
the Peace for the information of the Magistrates, who would
thereby know what was the rule upon such a subject
The clause was agreed to as amended by Lord Morpeth.
On clause 13 being put,
Colonel PERCEVAL wished to know from the Noble
Lord what was the animus of this oath. He knew there were
many who had been Orangemen now in the army of the police.
He wished to know what would be done with those who said
they had been Orangemen, but would not act as such while in
the service?

Lord MO RPE T H—All he proposed was to take care,
that when the oath was tendered, the person offering to take
it should declare that he did not then belong to, nor would
he join or belong to, any secret or political society whatever.
Mr. O'LOG HL EN could assure the Hon. and Gallant
Member that the gentleman who conducted this inquiry was
incapable of doing anything illegal. He challenged the Hon.
and Gallant Officer to bring forward any charge against him.
Colonel PE RCE VAL accepted the challenge of the Hon.
and Learned Member, and gave notice that he would move
that a copy of the Report, and the evidence taken on the in-
quiry, be laid on the table.
Mr. RONA YNE thought this the most valuable clause in
the Bill. He hoped that a similar oath would be extended to
all other species of individuals who held rank or Commission
under the Government of Ireland, and to Justices of the Peace
also.

The clause was then agreed to, as was also clause 14.
On clause 15 being put,
Mr. VE SE Y rose to move as an amendment, that in line 19
after the word appointed' the following words be inserted, 'as
recommended by the Magistrates at the Quarter Sessions.'
He thought the recommendation ought to come from the Ma-
gistrates, as they were chiefly concerned in the preservation of
the peace.

Lord MOR PET H objected to the amendment for the same
reason that he had objected to the previous amendment.
Colonel PE RCE VA L thought the Magistrates ought to
have the power of approval of men in their own county as
they should think fit to be appointed.
Lord MO R PET H thought the effect of the clause was not
calculated to be injurious, but greatly beneficial to counties.
Mr. JACKSON thought the recommendation of the Ma-
gistrates ought to have great effect.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Gallery
was cleared for a division, but none took place, and the or ginal
clause was agreed to.