The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-26 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The house went into committee of supply, and the dis-
cussion on the vpte for Irish education was resumed. _

Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the vote for the agricul-
tural schools in Ireland, whica he contended should be sup-
ported by the landlords of that country. The agricultural
school at Glasnevin was, he understood, a complete job, and
in others, charges were set down which he thought wholly
beyond the scope of such institutions. He moved that the
vote be reduced by the sum of £22,689.
Mr. MONSELL remarked that the hon. member who so
severely criticised this vote had not made any objection to
the £826,000 which had been passed for England. It must
be admitted that the arts referred to were most useful for the
children to learn, and unless it could be shown that the in-
struction was not well given no case had been shown for re-
ducing the vote.
Mr. CARDWELL—His hon. friend said that he did not
object to theteaching in the parish and local schools. (Hear,
hear.) The local agricultural schools were necessary to in-
struct the people in useful industrial arts, find to make
those schools efficient, the model agricultuQ school, near
Dublin, was necessary, for the purpose of providing proper
teachers. The teaching of the female population in indus-
trial habits, useful in after life, was equally important, and
Government would have neglected their duty, when public
money was voted for the purpose of educating the people in
Ireland, if they had not provided both for the training of
competent teachers in the arts of agriculture and for instruct-
ing the female part of the population in needlework and
other industrial arts which pertain to female instruction.
The charge for the higher branches of agricultural science
would be discontinued infuture years, and he trusted there-
fore that no objection would be pressed against the vote.
Mr. HADFIELD asked why they should pay the public
money for teaching agriculture in Ireland ? Did the public
pay for teaching cutlery in Sheffield, or cotton spinning in
Manchester ? for there was no more justice in the one than
the other. It was against all correct principles to grant
public money for teaching the population any science or art,
and he should divide with Mr. 'Williams. No ground could
be advanced for such a practice now, as there might have
been 20 years ago, in consequence of the low state of agri-
culture in Ireland. The idea of granting public money for
teaching music or needlework was really too absurd.
Mr. BLACKBURN also thought it a mistake to make
public grants for teaching trades.
Mr. HENNE SSY 'supported the vote.
Mr. WILLIAMS was glad to understand that the items
he objected to were in course of diminution. He was in no
way opposed to n grant for education in Ireland, but what he
objected to was the application of this £22,000. He would say
the proper'course was to leave the'schools in Ireland to con-
tribute for those things if they were needed. He would not
divide.
Mr. WHITESIDE wished to confirm a statement made
in the morning as to the necessity of increasing the payment
of schoolmasters in Ireland. He suggested that the number
of the schoolmasters of the national board should be dimi-
nished, and their pay increased. He advocated the church
education system as against the national, and held that
nineteen-twentieths of the whole Protestant population of
Ireland were in favour of the reading of the Scriptures in
schools. That being the case, on what conceivable system
was it that they were to be taxed for education, while no
regard was ioid to their wishes ? The Presbyterian body had
said distinctly that they would not take the vote on the con-
dition of not reading the Scriptures in the schools. The
principle, therefore, of the board was gone. If they took
care to provide proper payment for the schoolmasters, and
thus obtained properly qualified moral and religious teachers,
there would be no such crimes committed as a noble lord had
referred to in an earlier part of the day as that in which
certain schoolmasters had been implicated. When it was
considered what was the state of the population of Ireland,
some change ought to be made, as much in the interest of
the Roman Catholics as of the Protestants. As far as the
Church was concerned, the opinion of its members was that
education based on the Scriptures could not be changed,
and he therefore urged that some change should be made in
the system which would be more in accordance with the
feelings and opinions of all classes in Ireland.
Mr. M'CANN agreed with the right hon. member for
Tiverton, who gave the fairest description of the national
system of education in Ireland, whilst it contributed to do
nacre good in that country than anything which the British
Parliament had ever done for it.
Mr. A. WILLS said he felt it was of importance that the
salaries of the national schoolmasters should be raised,
which would tend to raise the status of the schools in the
south, which were very far below the proper standard.
The amendment was withdrawn, and the vote agreed to.
The next vote was £650 for the Commissioners of Edu-
cation in Ireland.
£3,650 for the University of London was agreed to.
The next vote, £7,650 for Universities in Scotland, was
also agreed to.
As was £2,297 for the Queen's University in Ireland.
On the next vote, £2,800, to defray certain expenses of
the Queen's colleges in Ireland.
Mr. HENNESSY wished it to be explained why the sum
of £4,800, which was the whole amount of the vote, had
been continued at the same amount since 1854, which was
to supply the deficiency of fees by students.
Mr C ARDWELL said that there was a complete account
given of every item of the vote in the report of the commis-
sioners. The circumstance of the students not being so
numerous as was expected, and the reduction of the amount
of fees, was the cause of the vote.

Vote agreed to.
The next vote, £5OO for the Royal Irish Academy, was
agreed to.
On the vote of £1,500 for theological professors at Belfast
and Belfast Academical Institution,
Mr. BAXTER said he was always ashamed of this vote.
He could not see why a large and wealthy denomination
should not pay its own professors. This was a cognate vote
to that of Mayhooth, and he begged to point out to the hon.
member for Warwickshire that if they succeeded in getting
rid of this vote, it would be clearing the way for abolishing
the grant to Maynooth. He moved the reduction of the
vote by £450, the retired allowances of professors of the
Belfast Academical Institution.
Mr. WILLIAMS briefly expressed his objections to the
vote.
After a few words of explanation from Mr. CARDWELL as
to the amount of the salaries of the theological professors
at Belfast included in this vote, being six at £250 each,
Mr. HADFIELD remarked that the Presbyterians of
Ireland were the only non-conformist body in the United
Kingdom who received money out of the taxes of the coun-
try, and the result was that there were no dissenters who
behaved so stingily to their own ministers. He thought it
would really be doing therm a service to deprive them of
the grant.
Mr. WHITESIDE defended the grant. He said the
Presbyterians of Ireland belonged to the Established Church
of Scotland, and ought not tobe described as dissenters. It
would be impolitic, whilst voting £30,000 a-year for May-
nooth, to take this small sum away from a body to whom
the country was indebted for Christian instruction.
Mr. ARNOTT bore testimony to the deserving character
and services of the Presbyterian clergy of Ulster, whose
incomes were by no means too large.
Mr. BLACK objected to the vote, not on account of its
amount, but because ho regarded it as vicious in principle.
The house then divided-
-145
For the vote
38-107
Against it
£17,425, to complete the sum of the estimate for the esta-
blishment of the British Museum.
Mr. WALPOLE said there was a reduction in this vote
as compared with that of last year,. amounting to £1,875,
It was gratifying to add that there was a large increase in
the number of students, and of the number of books of which
they made use. The number of books returned to the shelves
in the library during the year had been 177,290; in the
royal library, 12,428 ; in the Grenville library, 687 ; in the
closets, 122,102; in the reading-room, 564,000; total,
8,76,000, which was at the rate of 3,000 books per diem.
Last year the number was 576,000. During the year two
vacant trusteeships had been filled up, and he had no doubt
that the appointments would give the greatest satisfaction.
That in the nomination of the crown had been filled by
1/r. Cureton, and that by the trustees by Mr. Grote.
Mr. GREGORY said it would be in the recollection of
many hon. gentlemen that in the last Parliament he had
moved for a committee to inquire into the state of the Mu-
seum. He had shown on that occasion that the Museum
was in a state of hopeless confusion; tnat valuable collec-
tions were wholly hidden from the publio, and that great
portions of other collections were in danger of being de-
stroyed by damp and neglect. Next session he intended to
bring forward the subject, unless indeed he should find the
necessity of his doing so removed. He hoped the Govern-
ment in the recess would seriously consider whether the
natural history collection should not be removed from the
Museum ; a step in favour of which he believed there was
a growing conviction in the public mind. If they decided
on that the next question would be, whither ? He warned
the Government that if they attempted to remove it to
Kensington they would encounter an opposition as
serious and as successful as that which was raised against
the removal of the National Gallery. There could be
no doubt that Regent's-park would be a far preferable
locality; but there were insuperable difficulties in the way
of erecting suitable buildings in the park. There was only
one other site that need be discussed, and that was the
ground adjoining the present one. He should like to see a
great division between what might for shortness be called
the works of nature and the works of man. He would re-
commend a north front devoted to natural history and
kindred subjects, leaving the present building to works of
literature and art. He thought that there ought to be a
complete division between .the two branches, for it was
utterly impossible that any one mind should take in the
details of an establishment so varied and so bewildering in
the multiplicity of its details. He trusted, too, that what-
ever plan was adopted for the re-arrangement of the Mu-
seum, some attention would be paid to the suggestions of
the heads' of the departments. lie hoped that they should
hear no more of Mr. Smirke making plans which were in
direct opposition to the wishes of Professor Owen and Mr.
Hawkins. He trusted, in short, that the Museum, in its
arrangements, would be made a credit to the nation. There
was another subject which he must press upon the atten-
tion of the house—namely, the necessity of making the
Museum a place of instruction instead of a place of exhi-
bition. No part of his remarks at the early part of the year
had been so favourably received by the house and the press;
and he felt sure that he could carry against any government
a resolution affirming the principle for which he was contend-
ing. He had no desire to assume a point of hostility to the
government, but so important did he regard the subject that
he should feel bound to persevere. (Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that the assistants were the worst paid and the worst
usad in the public service. (Cheers.) Those gentlemen
required a special education, and that of a very high cha-
racter. Yet the utmost at which they could ever aspire was
a salary of £3OO per annum, except one fortunate indivi-
dual, who might perhaps become the head of a department.
He believed there was a division amongst the trustees on
this subjectowd that the noble lord (Russell) wasin favour
of a more generous policy' towards the assistants. The
assistants in the Museum, had only twenty-four days' va-
cation during the year, whereas in their other public estab-
lishments the officers had eight weeks. By working men
to death theydid not get better or cheaper work from them.
If they had more time many of these gentlemen might
visit foreign Museums, and the country would to some ex-
tent benefit by the larger experience they acquired. It was
because these gentlemen were men of studious and retired
habits; and did hot mix themselves up in politics that they
were thus treated. He hoped the Government would take
the matter up and deal with it in a satisfactory manner.
Mr. MILNES said he felt bound to add his testimony to
the observations of his hon. friend. He knew the gen-
tlemen to whom his hon. friend alluded, and a more deserv-
ing class of persons could not be found. It was not for the
honour of the country that they should be left in the state
of honourable poverty in which they were now placed. He
believed the working of the institution was now satisfac-
tory. The reading TOOIIII was an object of admiration, not
only in this, but in other countries. He would suggest,
as an improvement, that small reading-rooms should be at-
tubed to the generil one in which men of literary genius
who were engaged in works of importance should be Allowed

to conduct their inquiries. (Hear, hoar.) He thought
that the prbvincial libraries could be very usefully assisted
from the treasures which were contained in the British
Museum.

Mr. TURNER considered the assistants of the Museum,
to be very ill-used. They were men of high education,
yet they were not able to live like gentlemen or give edu-
cation to their children. He knew one who was obliged to
give up what might be called his title of honour as a mem-
ber of a learned society, because he had not the means of
paying the small sum which would entitle him to remain
a member. When the inspectors of military boots and
clothes were paid £3OO a-year, he thought it a disgrace
that these gentlemen in the Museum should be so ill paid.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SCULLY observed that there were many objections
made to small votes for Irish purposes, but ho had not heard
objections made to similar items in the votes for educational
purposes in this country.
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR said he had the acquaintance
and the friendship of some of the asisstants in the Museum,
end he could bear his testimony to what had been said of
them. It was only surprising that the trustees, who were
some of the most eminent men in the country, should allow
this state of things to continue so long. If the national
collection was broken up, and a portion of it carried to Ken-
sington, it would be unfair to the people at the other side of
London. The people of Victoria-park were just as well
entitled to a collection of their own as the people of Ken-
sington. The design of the British Museum by Mr. Smirk°
was a bad one, and the money which was spent in its
decoration, £530,000, was a pure job.
Mr. TITE observed that it was Sir R. Smirke who de-
signed the Museum, and it was his brother Mr. Smirke, who
carried out the decorations. He thought the hon. gentle-
man was mistaken as to the expense of the decorations. He
would suggest the propriety of finding room in the Museum
for the exhibition of the interesting and curious monuments
which had been brought from Halicarnassus, and which
were now placed where they could not be viewed.
Sir J. SHELLEY wished to ask the right hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Walpole) whether arrangements could not bemade
for keeping open the Museum to a later hour on Saturday
than the other days of the week, so as to enable the working
classes to spend their Saturdry half-holiday there.
Mr. WALPOLE said with regard to the separation of the
collections in the Museum, he was convinced no committee
of the house would be able to deal with that subject in the
proper way. It would require the hand and authority of
the executive government to deal with it as it ought to be
deal with. He hoped the Government, therefore, would
consider it during the recess, The second point to which the
hon. gentleman referred was the arrangement, but he did not
think he need answer his observations after the testimony
which had been given by the hon. member for Pontefract.
He might add, however, that within the last ton days one of
the most scientific men in Europe came to see this collection,
and he was not only delighted with the collectionitself, but
with the manner in which it was arranged. The third point
was that lectures ought to be delivered. That was a most
difficult question. Individually, he thought that these
collections might be made the most of without instruction,
but if they were to give lectures how was the lecturer to give
them ? and how was he to be paid ? and was the Museum
after all the proper. place in which to deliver them ? • Then
it should be remembered that the Museum was a reflection
and not a school for instruction. The next point was the
remuneration given to the assistants, which the hon. mem-
ber for Pontefract had put with thaebenevolence for which
he was so famous. Now he (Mr. Walpole) did not mean to
sayethat any one of these gentlemen was paid according to
his attainments; but who was. (Laughter.) Talk of at-
tainments, why if Professor Owen were paid according to
his attainments, he would be paid a higher salary than the
first Minister of the Crown. He did not wish to prevent
the Government raising these salaries, but only two years
ago this matter was fully gone into by. officers appointed by
the Treasury. The salaries in many instances were raised,
and if the officers wanted them raised higher, let the
matter be considered again, but if hon, members agreed to
this, he hoped they would not come down to the house and
complain of the increase of the civil estimates year by year.
The hon. member for Pontefract suggested that several
small: rooms should be set , aside for eminent literary
men when they wished to consult books, but had he con-
sidered the full extent of the proposition, and the amount
of jealousy which such a course would create? His (Mr.
Walpole's) belief was that in the reading-room they had
provided as much accommodation as they could in a public
institution, and if there was an exceptional case, such as the
hon. member mentioned, let application be made to the
trustees, and he was sure they would meet it. With re-
ference to the excavations that had been alluded to, they
were certainly in a disreputable state ; but that opened the
whole question of extending the building. His opinion was
that they must extend it northwards till they took in the
whole length of the street—nay, more, till it included the
whole of the area, and there should be a north entrance.
As to extending the hours for the working classes, it was a
mistake to suppose that they used the Museum much on a
Saturday. Monday was their great day, and he very much
doubted whether opening the Museum on a Saturday even-
ing would be a great boon to them. That involved the
question of light and fires, and he doubted whether the
good to be derived from this additional opening would be
equivalent to the danger and the expense. He was only
a junior trustee, but he must say he never saw an institu-
tion in which greater anxiety was manifested to give accom-
modation to the public in every possible way. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole), speaking as an indi-
vidual, had proposed that the houses in the neighbourhood
should be purchased, that the Museum might be enlarged.
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) spoke as an individual
also, and he looked upon the plan with great alarm, as in-
volving a great expenditure. The subject of increased
accommodation was one which called for immediate atten-
tion, and it would be the duty of the Government, as soon
as circumstances would permit, to bring the question into a
state of ripeness for decision ; but, at the same time, he felt
more than ordinarily the necessity of caution, on account
of the extraordinary demand on the public purse, and on
that subject he spoke less freely thaw& might do under
more favourable circumstances. Another point was as to
the salaries, and the vacations enjoyed, or rather suffered ;
for according to the hon. member (Mr. Gregory) the
officers were in a state of suffering. He thought that if the
officers conceived they had reason to complain, they ought
to have carried their complaint first to the trustees, and if
they did not get justice from them, to the Treasury, and
only as a last resort have appealed to that house. It should
be remembered that these were agreeable offices in them-
selves, which was an important item in considering the
salaries.

The vote was then agreed to.
The sum of £12,270 for new buildings at the British
Museum was also agreed to.
On the next v0te,°£15,985 for the National Gallery being
put,Mr. DA NBY SEYMOUR moved that the chairmanre-
port progress.
The CHAIRMAN put the question, and declared the
noes had it, but as
Mr. SEYMOUR called for ..a division,
Lord PALMERSTON said he would not ask the house
to take a vote which might create discussion at that time of
night. (It iiVe.'s then 12 o'clock.)
The CHAIRKAN then reported progress, and
The house resumed.
The Boundaries (Ifeland) Bill passed through com-
mittee.

The Westminster New Bridge Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The Consolidated Fund (X 7,000,000) Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The Queen's Remembrancer, Sze., Bill was read a second
time.

The Police (Counties. and Boroughs) Law Amendment
Bill was read a second time.
The Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill was committed
pro forma.
The Vexatious Indictments Bill was read a second time.
The Fireworks Act Amendment Bill was read a second
time.
The Dwellings for Labouring Classes (Ireland) Bill
passed through committee..
The Adulteration of Food, &c., Prevention Bill passed
through committee pro forma.
LOCOMOTIVE BILL.

The house resolved itself into committee on this bill.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said no doubt it was desirable that
locomotive engines should be permitted to travel along
turnpike roads, provided they could do so with safety; but
so far as he was at present advised, he thought the permis-
sion might be attended with danger, and therefore suggested
the postponement of the bill until further evidence could be
adduced on the subject. '
Mr. RIDLEY and Mr. GARNETT defended the bill.
Mr. HEADLAM thought the evidence which had been
adduced was decidedly favourable to the bill, but agreedwith
the Home Secretary in recommending the postponement of
the measure to a future day.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and
Mr. GARNETT gave' notice of 'lsis intention to move
that the evidence given before the committee be printed.
PAWNBROKERS'' BILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
MILITIA BALLOT SUSPENSION.
Mr. S. HERBERT obtained leave to bring in a bill to
suspend the making of lists and the ballots of the United
Kingdom.
MILITARY SAVINGS BANKS.
Mr. S. HERBERT obtained leave to bring in a bill to
amend and consolidate the laws relating to military saving°
banks.