The Sun.
London, England, 1832-03-21 00:00:00

STATE OF IRELAND.

Mr. SHAW after having presented a petition from
Galway in favour of the Gitlway franchise, prevented one
from the nobility, magistrates, clergy, and gentry of the
county of Cork, relative to the present alarming state of
Ireland. That petition was signed by the majority of the
resident nobility and magistracy of the county, and he bad
the authority of an Hon. Friend, Member for the county of
Cork, to state that the petition was more numerously and re-
spectably signed than any which had been received final
that county. It called the attention of the House to the
evils which now threatened Ireland with an awful crisis,
and to the efforts which were snaking to dissolve the Union
with Ireland, and it lamenied the want of firmness in his
M tjesty's Ministers in yielding to the demands of factious
and discontented persons.—(Hear, hear.) The peti-
tioners stated that they had moreover the greatest desire to
promote unanimity among all classes of his Majesty's sub-
jects, and they implored the House to take into con-
sideration the state of Ireland, and to destroy the revolu-
tionary measures now in progress in Ireland. That peti-
tion was intimately connected with the one which was
presented the other day from Westmeath, and which was
signed by the Lord-Lieutenant and all but one of the
Magistrates of that county ; he trusted therefore that the
earliest attention of the House would be called to the pre-
sent alarming state of Ireland, with a view to suppress the
present revolutionary and alarming state of that country.
Mr. H. GRATTAN was surprised to hear the Re-
corder of Dublin—a Judge of Ireland—accuse the people
of that country of being disloyal. As a Judge he ought
not to have so charged them, for it was not the case. If
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would attend in his
place on Thursday, he would find that such was not
the fact; the Hon. Gentleman would have informed himself
much better of the fact if he had attended regularly in his
place, instead of being elsewhere. He (Mr. Grattan)
place
the o
calumnies
es
t,
pledged himself, that it the Hon. Member attended in his
Thursday,at had been hesouls give
ld complete t
l, answers-
to
circulateda to
as
loyalty of the Irish people. It was wholly unbecoming
in any person to throw such a charge against them. He
had property in no less than ten counties in Ireland, and,
having such an opportunity of knowing the state of Ire-
land, he declared that the charge of disloyalty was wholly
and absolutely unfounded.

Mr. LEFIIOY said it seemed that the Hon. Gent.
(Mr. Grattan) had a very great objection to the applica-
tion of the term disloyal, as applied to the people of Ire-
land. He had risen merely to state that which was a
matter of notoriety, and which was confirmed by a great
number of magistrates, that there was such a state
of insubordination and outrage against the law in many
parts of that couutry, that no person's life or property was
see. As to the state of the county of Westmeath, he
would much rather take the authority of all the Magis-
trates of that county than that of a Member of the House.
The state of Cork had b•en represented by the petition
now before the House, and which was signed by a great
number of most respectable persons. The result of the
trials in the county of Kilkenny showed the state of that
part of the country. It appeared that his Majesty's
Government had been unable to proceed with the
bills of indictment against certain prisoners ; the
Attorney-General had been obliged to retire in conse-
quence of the system of intimidation which prevailed
there. Whether such conduct was fit to be called
disloyalty or insubordination, he would not stop to en-
quire, but the fact was, that it was found impossible
fur the judge to proceed with the trials, and
the prisoners were ordered to be detained in custody.
No man considered himself safe, all confidence in the sup-
port of Government was lost, and every thing in that part
of the country was now being given up to the domination
of a lawless mob. Under such circumstances he trusted
the attention of Government would be c.lled to the state
of Ireland, and that they would adopt such measures as
wimld enable parties to carry into execution the laws, and
afford to thi se who were acting in obedience to the law,
protection for their lives and property.
Colonel ROCH FORD thought that Government was
inclined to favour the species of disturbances which had
been alluded to.

Mr. SHAW stated that as the Hon. Member had
brought the subject before the House, he was
ready to adopt his words that many parts of Ireland
were in a state of insubordination and disloyalty. He did

The order of the day was then read for the resuming of
the adjourned debate on the
REFORM BILL.

Mr. TREVOR rose, and said it was not with the
slightest hope of being able to say any thing new on
this subject, or that he should make a single obser-
vation deserving the attention of the House, that he now
wished for a few moments to advert to this measure. He
felt it due, however, to his own convictions, to his con-
stituents, and to those on his side of the House, not
to give his silent vote on such an occision.—(Bear.)
Those with whom he had acted had manifested
an ability and patriotism which though overwhelmed by
means of the numbers on the other side, would doubt-
less elicit from the reflecting and sober-minded part of
the community, and from every well wisher to the good
order of society, that praise and approbation to which
they were justly entitled. Although the present measure
differed at present in some measure from its predecessor,
yet it contained equally objectionable provisions, and was
equally dangerous in its tendency. It was not his
design to discuss it in its ♦arious parts, nor to
point out those numerous anomalies—its continual
contradictions to those principles which its promoters
professed, as entitling them to the approbation
of their country—yet he could not but allude to the
anomaly of giving a similar right of franchise to
the great manufacturing towns—to the sections of the
metropolis—the purlieus of Newcastle, and the frequenters
of sea bathing districts; he could not pass over the
spoliation of ancient corporate rights, which were sanc-
tioned by law and by justice, merely in conformity to the
spirit of a❑ age which, reckless of every thing that was
just or venerable in principle, and beneficial in operation,
desired, at all li,zards, change of any description, provided
it only differed from the existing state of things. Such
was the condition to which this country had

arrived ; but admitting for a moment that he had
adopted this view of the subject from prejudice, or
fanciful or imaginary alarm, he would venture to ask
was it probable, was a rational hope to be entertained, that
the measure now before the House was likely to be final, or
rather was it not a stepping-stone to further encroachments?
By this Bill, those who might be the future Members of
this House would not be the representatives of the landed
interests—not the representatives of the gentry of the
county—not even the representatives of the respectable
householders of the various parts sending members to
Parliament, but little better than the delegates of a
mob. (Hear, hear.) The picture was not overdrawn.
Experience has shewn what the effect of popular
agitation was : and recollecting what had passed, it was
impossible to look forward without alarm to the
delegation of such a power to that class of the
community who could not be said to be likely
to make good use of it. To whom was the House in-
debted for this crisis ? To whom was it owing that
they were called upon, from day to day, to account for
not getting on so fast with this measure as their So-
vereign Lords, the mob, approved of? Was the Bill
approved of by the respectable portion of the country? Was
it approved of by the landowners in general ? Cer-
tainly not. Many of the principal Reformers who
admitted the propriety of some change actually
recoiled with alarm at the prospect of what was
before them. Did the petitions which had been pre-
sented from day to day and from place to place not
plainly show what might be expected from a people
goaded on by a licentious and revolutionary Press ?
A Press which had dared not only to dictate to the
Members of this House, but to the Members of the other
House, what the duty was which they ought to pursue
—not only dictated to them their duty, but even threatened
those with the thunder of its vengeance who might not.
opinion,
e b er thats
obey its despotic laws. Had not that revolutionary Press—
h, aot call it the fair organ of public
becauseofe,
e r revolutionary
Housea t it
Pressth• m
certainly t alivnelarie,
determinedty was not—Lad
bc kjeedso ofut
popular
those
deti.station and just indignation? The House under such
circumstances ought to hesitate in delegating so great
a power to such a set of persons who never he-
(
object to this manner of Reform as oi
‘ notim
fure possessed it, and who never ought to wield it.
The House had been frequently told that the public meet-
ings throughout the country were sufficient proofs
of the general feeling of the people on this
measure. With regard to the late elections, he
denied now, as be had always done, that this

was to be considered a popular Bill. Was it possible
that the public opinion was to be argued to be the
law of the kingdom ? For such he contended to have
been the law of the various public meetings which had
been held. To attempt to say that any system of human
intitution could be free from fault would be to assert what
was incompatible with the frailties of human nature.
but it was impossible to forget that this country had ar-
rived at a pitch of greatness unparalleled in her
former history before ; and surely it required serious
consideration ; for, on the mere visionary view of the mo-
ment, it would be inconsistent with the safety of the country
to abandon that vessel which had weathered so many
storms, for the purpose of embarking in another, which,
to say the least of it, was of an untried and experimental
description. He sincerely concurred with the Hon. Member
for Aldborough, last night, in wishing that he could allow
himself to believe that the consequences of this measure
would be different from what he was persuaded they would be.
He wished he could believe that his apprehensions arose
from prejudice or party feeling. But the more he re-
flected on the measure, the more firmly was be convinced
of the danger that would result from passing it
into a law. He also entirely concurred with that part
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Rye's speech, that
regard being had to the immediate and certain danger of
passing this Bill into law, as compared with the danger of
rejecting it, infinitely the lesser evil would be, and there-
fore the proper remedy, to negative the passing of the Bill.
He thought the history of past times sufficiently pointed
out the danger of the course they were about to adopt. It
they looked back to what had occurred in their own coun-
try, they would find that there was scarcely an instance iu
which concessions to popular clamour had answered the
en:. proposed by those who conceded what had been re-
quired. He much feared that those Members who looked
to the present Bill as the great panacea of all the evils
which were supposed to oppress the country, would have
to confess their error, and find that the country was fast
approaching to ruin. He conceived it to be the bounden
duty of every individual who had hitherto voted in the mi-
nority, now that the Bill was in its last stage, honestly and
manfully to declare their opinions. Although he had the
honour of representing a body of men in a large and
important county town, who looked with an eye of favour
to this measure, he felt it his duty to oppose it ; for
though he was favourable to the general principles of Re-
form, he conceived the present Bill to exceed all rational
bounds. He, therefore, felt himself honestly bound
to state his sentiments. The principles of the present
day professed a continued warfare of beggary against pro-
perty, and the bold adventurer, against the straight
forward and long established Statesman.—(Hear, hear.)
When he reflected on this, be could not but feel
an apprehension for the welfare of the country
and for its institutions. God grant that his fears might
be erroneous. The Government were legislating as if
human nature had arrived at its perfection, and
they were throwing down every barrier of safety with-
out reflecting how they were to check the result.
Those who opposed the Bill would have to reflect that
they had done the utmost of their power to warn their
country of the precipice on which they were standing. He
admitted that the time was arrived when some change
was necessary, but under the specious pretence of Reform
he would never sanction the course of revolution. Would
(said the Hon. Member) the shades of our departod great
men could break the slumbers of the tomb, would that they
could rise again and be told all that was passing amongst
us. Words would be wanting to express their astonishment.
He (Mr. Burke) who bad exerted himself to warn a neigh-
bouring nation of the revolution into which they were
about to plunge, lived to see his predictions too fatally
realised. Could he now rise amongst us, his astonishment
would exceed all bounds to find that we were treading
in the same steps which had proved so fatal. If the re-
sult proved otherwise than be (Mr. Trevor) predicted, he
should be the first to acknowledge his error ; but, on
the most mature consideration, he looked at the pre-
sent measure as the ruin of the property and the
religious establishments of the country ; and last, though
not least, the ruin of the Monarchy itself. With
these sentiments he could not but declare his
opposition to the measure, and he would make
that declaration though the consequences were
that to-morrow morning he should lose the confidence of
those whu returned bins to that House. He was con-
vinced that Ministers were producing as bloody and as
fearful a Revolution as ever blotted the annals of any
country.

Mr. SCHONSWAR said, that in the present ex-
hausted state of the subject, he would endeavour to com-
press what he had to say within the least possible com-
pass on the present occasion ; he had more abun-
dant reason to do so than he had on any former one.
But representing, as he did, a large and respectable class
of persons, he should not he doing them justice
without he took this—the last—occasion, to say
a few words. As regarded the dangers which Hon.
Gentleman opposite thought would attend the passing
of this Bill, he was of opinion that the danger lay in
refusing it, and not in granting it; that the danger lay
in a rash vote between the great body of the people and the
expression of their anxiety fur Reform. It had been said that
the present measure was but the prelude to others. That
was the fault of the Gentlemen on the other side, who, if
they had brought forward measures of their own, would
have enabled the country to judge which was the best
But as he believed the overwhelming majority of the peo-
ple wished for the plan of Reform now before the
House, and considered it a great and substan-
tial relief, the House had a right to assume that
no other satisfactory plan bad been proposed for
their acceptance. A great deal too much importance had
been attached to antiquity. They had been called upon
by every motive of veneration and piety to uphold the great
fabric bequeathed to them by their forefathers. Now with
every due respect for the memory of our forefathers, it was
well known those personages had often repaired such
parts of the Constitution as were found to be necessary.
He confessed that the foundation of the Constitution was
laid by them, but he asked the House to look at the pre-
sent dense population, the increase of ships and co-
lonies, and trade, the highly excitable people of
the present day, in whom were concentrated
the elements of good and evil to an eminent
degree, and then say whether it was not for the House
now to form a mode of legislation like the present,
which, he was sure, was a good one, and which,
he hope,!, would be a lasting one. He defied
any man to look at the institutions of former
time., and say they were fitting for the present genera-
tion. As contrasted with former times, a moral and in-
tellectual change bad been going on of late with a tenfold
rapid pace. Let the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Trevor)
look at the state of the inhabitants of the town he repre-
sented, as it was twenty years ago, and let him look at it
now. Let him look and contrast the mode of life of its
inhabitants, and their endowments at the two periods, and
let him then say whether the institutions of our forefathers
were fit for the present highly cultivated people. It ap-
peared to him that, the present Bill had been wisely and well
framed upon a due consideration of the wants of the
people. It was, perhaps, not perfect, and, indeed, what
institution was so ? But it was calculated to last
for many years. It opened wide the doors of the Con-
stitution to all who chose to enter therein, and it
gave to a highly civilized people their political wants.
The Bill had been scrutinized in all parts of the empire,
and he was surprised now to hear Hon. Gentlemen say
that it had not the support of the country. Let them
look at the last elections by large constituencies, and that
would spew them how eager the people were for the
Bill. Indeed, very few representatives for large places
had ventured to oppose it. That it would easily pass
through that House, he could not doubt.—(Hear,
hear.) With respect to its probable fate elsewhere,
he looked forward with hope but not with despair.
Whether it would be then rejected, or whether it would be
crippled or mangled, which would he as bad as rejecting it,
he could not tell, but if such a calamity should
occur, they must look for danger ; he did not
lo ,k for any very dreadful consequences, because be had a
great reliance on the good sense of the people; but
there would be probably a loss of confidence between the
governors and the governed. Ile would not trust himself
with hazarding any opinion upon such a possible case.
He had the most implicit confidence in the firmness
his Majesty's Ministers, and he trusted that they would
not desert the helm in the hour of danger, but that they
would bring that great healing measure to a speedy, happy,
and honourable termination.
Sir J. BRIDGES was convinced Ministers would
not charge gentlemen on that sir.e the House with
having been the means of creating useless delay. Ti at
there had been delay he admitted, but the reason was the
complicated and contradictory nature of the Bill, which had

Colonel TORRENS meant to confine himself to an-
swering. some objections stated to the principles of the
Bill. The Right Hon. the ex Secretary to the Admiralty
bad stated that property, not population, should be repre-
sented ; and he was surprised that a Gentleman of his
acuteness should, when he embraced that principle, con-
tend against giving representatives to some of the most
wealthy towns of the empire. On his own principle, he
ouebt to have voted for giving even a greater number of
Members to the metropolitan districts. The Right Hon.
Gentleman complained of the anomalies of the Bill, but
there was no greater anomaly in it thin the anomaly of
the Right Hon. Gentleman contending for the principle
of property, and arguing against giv.ng Members to the
metropolis. He must also contend in opposition to the
Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, that the
101. householders of the metropolis deserve to have votes.
He thought the labourers of the country ought to be repre-
sented, and he, therefore, approved of the 101. franchise
being adopted in large towns; and he approved in parti-
cular of that part of the Bill which extended the franchise
to the 10/. householders of the metropolis. The Hon.
and Gallant Member then adverted to the argument, that
the system worked well, and denied that it did, referring to
the present state of the slavery of the peasantry, and the
infant slavery of the manufacturing districts, and to the
distress of all classes, to prove his assertion. He admitted
that it was difficult to say what would now work better.
An argument against the Bill was, that it would produce
a democratic change. On that he joined issue with those
who made the assertion. He denied that it would pro-
duce such a change ; for that change had already taken
place. The Bill would not be the cause of such a change,
it was the effect. The democratic change which was the
object of the dread of the Gentlemen opposite, already ex-
isted. The Bill was the consequence of that. The pro-
gress of half a century had now made it as impossible to re-
sist Reform as to resist the independence of the Americans,
as only the same sort of madness which led George the
Third to resist tha Americans would now lead the Tories
to resist Reform. One of the remarkable changes in
society was the increase in the power and wealth of the
middle classes ; and if the times would not open their eyes
to anything else, they must nee that the power of the aris-
tocracy had declined, and that the elements of political
power had passed into new hands. The growing power of
the country could not be withstood. The Tories might
yet enjoy influence, but it was only by placing themselves
at the bead of the movement they could not resist, and
that, lie hoped and trusted, would be tranquil and glorious
enthusiasm of the Tory party.
Mr. MACKINNON did not oppose the Bill from fac-
.

tious or interested motives. He believed that he was sure
of being returned to a reformed Parliamen as to a Parlia-
ment as at present formed. He did not object to Reform,
and was convinced that some Reform ought to take place,
but he objected to some specific provisions of the Reform
Bill. Thejßill was founded on the two principles of wealth
and population, and it took away Members from England
and Wales. One hundred rod twenty-five years ago, at
the period of the Union with Scouland, England and
Wales bad 513 Members. Since then, the wealth of the
country had increased ten fold—he meant personal pro-
perty—and the population at least three-fold. According
to the principle of the Bill, therefore, the number of Mem-
bers ought to have been increased ; but the Bill dimi-
nished them. On that account he objected to the Bill.
The next objection he had to the Bill applied to the com-
bination of the principles of property and population, by
which the boroughs of schedule A were disfranchised, the
boroughs of B were retained, and the boroughs inserted in
schedule C and D. He objected to that, because in that
combination the vote of a poor man in a rich district and
the vote of a rich man in a pour district would be of very
unequal value. That principle was not new, it was adopted
in 1798 in France during the Revolution. He was con-
vinced that if the propositions respecting shedules A and
B were carried into effect, the influence of the Peers and
of the Church would be wholly destroyed. Hear.) He
repeated, that the influence which the Executive and the
Peerage now exercised in that House for their own pro-
tection, and in order to preserve the power of the three
estates, would be wholly destroyed.—(Hear, hear.) If
they looked to the history of this country from a very
early period—but particularly since the accession of the
House of Hanover—they would find that all the powers
of the Crown and of the Peerage were brought into ex-
ercise through the means of the close boroughs ; and
when these were removed—when the means through
which the Peers and the Crown were able to main-
tain themselves against the power of the people in
that House were taken away—what, be asked would be
the consequence ; Let them suppose that by any not im-
probable accident the Representatives of that House, after
the passing of the Reform Bill, took offence at the con-
duct of the Lords, why they would say instantly, " Of
what use is the House of Lords ? It is composed of one
or two hundred persons with tolerably large fortunes, but
deeply mortgaged ; that branch of the Legislature is of no
use—let us do away with it."—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Mackinnon) was not in the line of a Peerage, and, there-
fore, not personally interested in the question : but he
put it to the Ncble Lord (Althorp), who was the heir to
an Earldom and to a large fortune, whether that view of
the question was not worthy of his consideration.—(Hear,
hear.) He would t ike another view of the subject.
Supposing that there happened to be a Prince of the
Royal Family in this country who had rendered himself
unpopular with the people, and who had become equally
obnoxious to the Press, who assailed him with all the
zeal and power for which it was distinguished ; supposing,
too, that this Prince was the heir to the throne, and the 101.
householders, thus worked on, said that they were deter-
mined that he should nut succeed to his birthright, and in-
sisted on their Representatives in that House refusing their
concurrence in such a Prince's elevation, what, he asked,

)
IA)
...e.„.,i •-*,_c
--: - :I,s (-3
would lbe the consequence ? • Civ' wie liglik- •
~ it Tise,
issue ; but, at all events, there • ~,,, o ',4lrmil .i a enity '..._,'P
and gnat danger in such a posit •Mo (:-.- . :-.4 ~ , , ,-,-.at.
Much bad been said of the dange n to./Atitielytarff- If
tftv
eesion, and they had been raferr, . • '-ecrldit,ioW:gifie's,
France and to the Revolution whi • . :,., ":-.- k , -;.,,1Z
that country. He maintained, how era ; :-'a a ;'.-
tion of the two countries was very different. -lII' PI14: el
there were no higher classes previous to the late Revolt,.
tion. The Peers were so only in name; and it was well
known that the great body of the middle anti lower classes
of Paris were adverse to Charles the Tenth and his ordi-
nances. Now in England the case was very different.
The middle classes, although not adverse, but rather
favourable to Reform, were yet almost unanimous in their
hostility to the particular provisions of that Billwhich had
been introduced by the Government. If any one. doubted
this, he would tell them to look at the declarations of the
merchants and bankers of the metropolis and many of the
great towns, and to the opinions expressed by the Members
for Thetford and Boroughbridge (Baring and Attwood),
and others their representatives. In France the Revolu-
tion was the work of public opinion. In England, be
feared it must be allowed that the Reform Bill was the re-
sult of popular clamour.—(Hear.) He contended that
the whole system of the Government must undergo a
change, for it was impossible that any Minister whe cams-
in as the Representative of the 101. freeholders under the
Reform Bill could retain his place if it depended on their
opinions and caprice.
General PALMER said that having failed in his en-
deavours to speak upon the question in the last Session,
until just at the close, and in an almost empty House, he
was anxious to address it once more upon the subject ; in-
somuch, that he still viewed it in a different light from
all who had spoken in the debate, and above all, the Right
Hen. Baronet, the leader of the Opposition, whose
strong objections to the Bill he hoped to answer to the sa-
tisfaction of the House and the country. He must first
observe, that the coalition of parties in the present Mi-
nistry had exposed them to the attacks of their opponents,
who had not failed to take advantage of it ; for instance,
the most severe and effective speech of the Right Hon.
Baronet against them had been in answer to the Noble
Lord his former colleague, who, in the debate in the last
Session, had charged him with inconsisiency of conduct,
when the Right Hon. Gentleman, with great warmth
and eloquence, complained of the injustice of the attack
by those who, having hitherto with himself opposed all
Reform whatever, had suddenly been made converts to the
revolutionary measure of the Whigs ; but however plat -
bible the argument, what was the fact ? The Noble
Lord and others, in becoming panic. to the Bill, had
proved the sincerity of their conversion, and redeemed
the errors of their former policy ; but where was the
cinsistency of the Right Hon. Baronet, in cutting the
throat of the Tory party upon the Catholic Question,
and crying murder at his own act, in hie speeches against
the Reform Bill—for whether it was the necessity of Ca-
tholic Emancipation, or of agreeing in opinion with the
Duke of Wellington, the Noble Duke and himself, in car-
rying that measure, had opened the door to Reform, by
thus breaking the tie betwixt the Tories and the People,
which had so long excluded the Whigs from office, and
prevented the adoption of the liberal system of which Ca-
tholic Emancipation was a vital part ; but still the Right
Hon. Gentleman might have saved both his character and
place and have justified the warm defence of his conduct by
the Whigs against the reproaches of the Tories, had he only
followed the course which his abandonment of their cause
had called for, viz., in persuading the Duke to bring for-
ward the measure of Reform, or le iving him to the conse-
quence of his own declaration against it; when, consisten-
tly with his vote on the Catholic Question, he might have
followed the example of his former colleagues in becoming
a Member of the present Government, and continu ng to
nke the lead in that House, for which his talents and
practice had se well fitted him ; but instead of this, what
was the fact ? The Noble Duke and the Right Hon.
Baronet were sent for by the late King to form a nes;
Ministry, and accordingly undertook the Government be-
twixt them, without the aid of either party or the people ;
when, having been soundly beaten by the Whigs upon the
great question of their policy—the repeal of the Test Act
—instead of resigning office and leaving the field to their
opponents, according to the practice in political warfare,
they turned the tables on the Whigs by stepping into their
shoes and carrying their own question of Catholic Relief
against the Tories. And here, if toe Noble Duke, who
had thus taken up the cause of the people, had only stood
by it, the Whigs, who had proved their forgiveness of the
march he had stolen on them, by their zeal on the Catho-
lic Question, would have enabled him to carry Reform in
the same triumphant manner; but, for whatever reasons
the Noble Duke and Right lion. Gentleman determined
to retrace their steps, and win back the hearts, or at least
stop the mouths of the Tories, by their sweeping declara-
tion against Reform ; when, having soon discovered their
mistake, they as soon changed their minds again, and had
now become half Reformers, in the hope of returning to
office upon the back, of the party no longer able to carry
them—for hitherto the Tories, being consistent in their
conduct, had obtained credit for the honesty of their feel-
ings, and a real apprehension of that danger to the Pro-
testant Religion which the people had so long believed in ;
but the Noble Duke and the Right Hon. Baronet, in car-
rying the Catholic Question w;thout abandoning their
Tory principles, had thereby dropped the mask, and
opened the eyes of the people to the fallacy of the system
they had so long supported ; for having at last removed all
the unjust and invidious distinctions between the Pro-
testant and Catholic people, what reason could they give
for withholding the same justice between their respective
Churches, either in restoring the Catholic Church to her
former rank and property, or placing both upon the 811111t1
footing, by that Reform of the Established Church,
which the necessity of the case and the voice of
the people, of both religions, had so loudly called for ?
lie now came to the main argument against the Bill,
wherein, to speak the truth, he believed the majority of
the House so far agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet,
that they bad gone the whole length with Ministers, more
from necessity than choice, and to prevent the greater
danger, under all circumstances, from a less radical mea-
sure ; indeed, as much had been stated in ti,e last Session
by Hon. Members, as old and sincere friends of the
people as he hoped he had been himself; and he men.
tinned the fact, because, if such were the feelings, could
the people be surprised at the stronger fears of the body
who were not the Representatives, but, according to the
intention of the Constitution. the check and control upon
them ; and whose conduct, however to be regretted, had
been consistent with the system which the people had
supported for more than fifty years, and would have sup-
ported still, had they not found out the necessity for that
radical change which the majority of the said body, how-
ever unwisely, dangerously, and unconstitutionally, had
still conscientiously opposed ? To return to the Right
Hon. Baronet, who still maintained that the Bill would
destroy the Constitution and establish a Republican Go-
vernment, he would now ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
and his friends, in answer to their late speeches, if such
had been the real object of the Political Unions and these
Meetings of 150,000 men, whom they declar.d to be tie
dictators and masters of the Government—was it to be
believed they would have lost the golden opportunity
which the Lords had given them, and have stool forward
at that awful moment in defence of the Constitution
against its only real danger from the enemies of the Bill?
In melancholy proof, let them only look at Bristol, and
ask themselves whether the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, the Recorder of the City, who, by his own
statement, had been told that the Civil Power was unable
to protect him, and therefore knew, or ought to have
known the extreme danger of a visit which might have
been dispensed with, had not been the sole cause of all the
melancholy consequences; and looking to the example of
Bristol, could they deny the fact, that whatever the danger
of these Unions in themselves, they had, both in their ex .
istence, and in the exercise of that power and influent's
wherein their danger consisted,, protected the country at
large from the dreadful effects which the rejection of the
Bill, and the excitement of the people had in that instance
produced ? As to the real object of the Unions, to meet
that question fairly, he would take the speech of the Caair-
man of the Birmingham Union at their great meeting,
upon which so much had been said elsewhere—that speech
he had read throughout ; and whatever the question of
Mr. Attwood's politics or judgment, he believed there had
been no question of the sincerity of his praise of the Crown
and Ministers, his attachment to the Constitution, and his
honest belief that justice might be done the people with-
out
endangering it. To obtain that right was the object
of the Political Unions, and the main question of the pre-
sent Bill, which, as the Right Hon. Baronet and others
had truly said, could not stop where it stood, but, on its
own principle, must lead to that only red representation of
the people by which every man who contributed to support
the Government, either in his person, property, or labour,
was entitled to a vote ; and by which there would he
no honest means of preventing Universe] Suffrage, than
to relieve labour from taxation. How this could be done
he had yet to answer to the Right Hon. Baronet, and
would now state, in as few words as the subject would
permit, the grounds of his conviction that tite present glo-
rious measure, for which the people were so deeply indebted
to the Crown and Ministers, woula enable them to relieve
the labour of the country from taxation, without danger
or injury to property or the Constitution. It was a melan-
choly truth in the history of the nation, that, in propor-
tion to the increase of its wealth, so had been the decrease

of the. welfare of 'the labouring classes ; and the reason
bad been shortly this—when first the Government wa•
established, the whole expense of it was defrayed to
property, whilst, labour being free, lived by its own in.
dustry ; but as property increased in wealth, power cm,-
with it, and as power creates abuse, ao property began
with shifting by degrees the burthen of its own protection
upon labour's back ; thus taxation commenced, and conti-
nued so increase from time to time, as labour was found
able to bear it ; and thus the hand of industry was turned
against itself, in strengthening the power that oppressed it.
But to pass over the intermediate history of the increase
of taxation, and to come at once to the close of the present
state of the country, it had been the funding system—the
foundation of all its wealth and misery—but which, from
having been the source of its distress, had become the
means to remove it ; (or what but the funding system, in
mortgaging labour instead of capital to pay the interest of
the Public Debt, had acted like the steam-engine in mul-
tiplying the powers of both to that degree, which, to re-
peat the emphatic close of the Right Hon. Baronet's late
speech, " had made and preserved this the proudest nation
in the annals of the world ;" but which assertion, be must
beg leave to say, contained more fallacy than truth; for,
however true that the combined powers of the capital and
labour of England exceeded all the world besides, it was no
less true that the powers of both, for want of combination,
had long since been dormant, and that the real situation of
the country, both at home and abroad, was the reverse of
that which the Right Honourable Baronet had described.
But this had been the necessary consequence of the
same funding system, which, in mortgaging the labour of
the people, who had all along been paying the interest of
the increasing debt, whilst capital was left to accumulate,
load thus enabled the Right Hon. Baronet to draw the d it-
tering picture on his own side, where property, in climb_
ing all the while the ladder of its wealth, had now arrived
at the top, and might well boast of the high ground it
stood on ; but what was the picture on the other side?
During the progress of this cruel system, which after so
many years had brought the nation to its two extremes of
poverty and wealth, whole generations of hard-worked,
ill fed, short-lived, and even half-grown labour, had been
swept away; and such was its present state, that Mini-
sters were now sending it frora the country to prevent its
st Irving in it, And this, the labour of England, to which
her property owed all its wealth, and which, having once
given her that proud weight in the scale of nations, stated
by the Right Hon. Baronet, might not only do the same
again, but render her far happier and more truly great in
peace than she had ever been in war—for all that was
wanting to restore her power, was simply for property to
untie labour's hands. And now, to say how this was to
he done, let property at once begin with taking the bur-
then of the public debt, by which it would relieve both la-
bour and itself. But first, he must state the value of the
whole property of the country, which, according to the es-
timate in Dr. Colquhoun's work, published in 1812, then
amounted to 2,738 millions ; to which ought to be added,
the great increase of property during the last twenty years;
but he would leave this out, that he might adopt the esti-
mate of Mr. Richard Heathfield, in his plan for the liqui-
dation of the public debt, first published in 1819, and which
he begged to state very shortly to the House, in justice to
the author and in defence of the opinion of so humble
an individual as himeelf. In this plan, Mr. Heathfield
estimated the value of the property of the kingdom, at
2,900 millions ; to which he added the 800,000,0001. of
public debt, making in the whole 3,600 millions. Upon
this stun he proposed to levy an assessment of 20 per cent.
amounting to the sum of 720,000,000/. ; with which to
liquidate the debt to that amount, and thus at once relieve
labour from thirty millions of taxation. Of this
720,000,000/. of the debt, 160,000,000/., being the
amount of the assessment of the ftandholders, would be at
once cancelled ; the landholders, and other proprietors re-
quiring time, being taxed with the interest due upon their
assessments until the whole was paid off. If then property,
in thus far relieving labour from taxation would benefit
itself, could there be a question, that in bearing the whole
expenditure of the Government, it would derive increased
advantage from it. For, in fact, the depression of labour
which had commenced with the peace, and had ever since
been increasing, had alre.dy burdened property to the full
amount of taxation, and with aggravated weight. But
the whole question of the present system of taxation, and
its cruel effect: on capital and I ibour, in baying rendered
both unable to benefit each other and the country, were
futlyexplained in Mr. Heathfield's publications on the sub-
ject—wherein he had shown, that in raising the revenue
by taxes on consumption, instead of a tax on property, the
necessaryeffect of high duties, in multiplying prices by the
action and re-action of price on price, so increased the

amount, that the annual tax of 1/. on any article of con-
sumption required at least 61. in the general prices to dis-
tribute the burthen of the 1/. paid to the treasury. Such
being the effect of the present system of taxation, which
every Hon. Member might learn by reading Mr. Heath-
fieliVe book, he would no longer detain the House than to
state hie humble but firm conviction, that the adoption of
Mr. Heathfield's plan would, in again combining the gi-
gantic powers of the capital and labour of England, at once
ranee her out of all her difficulties.
Colonel WOOD said, if the disfranchisement had been
confined to schedule A, he (Colonel Wood) would not
have opposed it, but he objected most strongly to the
course pursued with respect to the boroughs in schedule B.
If there were any boroughs in schedule B not fit to re-
tain their power of returning Representatives, he pre-
ferred that they should be put at once into schedule A, so
that they might not introduce a new principle, and one
dangerous to the Constitution. As to the metropolitan
clause, he thought it the most objectionable in the Bill. It
give universal suffrage to the inhabitants of the metropolis,
- and at the same time brought that suffrage almost to their
own doors. He had heard it said that Paris was France; he
hoped that London would never be England. He bad felt
it his duty to object to taking the third Member from Mon-
mouthshire, because he thought that the interests of agri-
culture in that [louse ought not to be diminished; hut, in
his opinion, it n-as a bad principle to give third Members
counties ; it would have been much better not to have
hroLen down the various rural boroughs with which agri-
culture was connected. He strongly objected against any
reduction in the number of the English representatives. If
Scotland and Ireland could make out claims to additional
representatives, let them have them, but not at the ex•
pence of Engin/. He certainly thought that Scotland
was entitled to an addition of twenty Members ; but he
doubted if a case could be made out fur the addition of any
representatives for Ireland. As it was, he objected to the
third reading of the Bill, the adoption of which, in its
present shape, would make an inroad on the English Con-
stitution, the consequences of which no wan could foresee.
Mr. ROBINSON supported the motion fur the third
reading of the Bill. In the progress of the measure he
had felt it his duty to vote against some of its details; but
when, from the n fusel of the other patty to consent to any
Reform, he was driven to the alternative of having no
Reform at all, or of having the Bill with whatever im-
perfections he might suppose belonged to it, he could not
hesitate upon the subject. He had never heard from the
opponents of tie Bill what degree of Reform they were
prepared to concede. With respect to the measure under
consideration, it rested on the broad ground of expedi-
ency ; that was the only ground on which it could be
justified. It had been maintained that the proposed Re-
form was objectionable, because it destroyed the balance in
that House between the agricultural and manufacturing
interests, He did not think that it would have that effect.
Besides, it ought to be considered that the other House
was almost exclusively agricultural in its interests ; and
that even if the manufacturing interest were to prepon-
derate in the House of Commons (which, however, he cle-
aned that it would), it would only be what was due to it.
Again, it was objected that they were about to take away
the influence of the Aristocracy. The undue influence of
the Aristocracy-it was undoubtedly intended to take away.
The measure was calculated to give the people a greater
share in the choice of their representatives, and a greater
centrol over these representatives when chosen. But it was
contended that the Bill would destroy the present means
by which the colonial interests were represented in Parlia-
ment. Those interests would still be represented as they
then were; they would be represented indirectly. The
interests of the Colonies were so identified with the inte-
rests of the Mother Country—that every Member must
regard them as inseparable, All other modes of represent-
ing the Colonies in that House would be absurd ; fur the
number of direct Members for the Colonies must be so
small that it would be total!), insignificant. If the Bill
ware rejected, the country would be placed in a most pe-
rilous situetion. It was impossible that a new Gierrn-
ment could carry on the complicated affairs of the State
without themselves, in the first instance, bringing forward
a full and extensive measure of Referee.
Sir RICHARD VYVY AN—The Hon. Member ,Cho
had just sat down had stated that he thought there were
imperfections in the BM, and that many of its details
would not work so well as some of its sanguine supporters
expected ; and yet, although be must know that the mea-
sure once passed, could never be repealed, he stated that
he was prepared, even against his own conviction, to lend
it the weight and sanction of his support in its present
stage. The only reason that the Hon. Gentleman had
stated for pursuing this very extraordinary course was,
that no other plan of Reform had been brought forward
by those who were opposed to the present. If that were
the only ground upon which the Hun. Gentleman—so
much against his own better judgment, as it would seem—
eves dEiven to support this Bill, why did he not, in justice

to himself, to his constituency, and to his country, bring
forward a measure of his own? It was evident that whe-
ther the Bill were now carried or not, whether it should
be allowed to pass through all its stages in another House,
or whether it should be stopped there as on a former oc-
casion—it was perfectly clear that the Government could
not again, with any due regard to the feelings of the
country, bring forward another such a measure of Reform.
If rejected, it must be modified. At present there existed
no precedent for the reproduction of a measure thrice re-
jected. It remained to be seen whether Lord Grey would
venture on so novel a course. The Reform Bill had been re-
jected, first by the Commons, and then a dissolution took
place. After that its fate was decided in another place—
a prorogation followed—the measure was again brought
forward—and the question now was, whether some
Bill or other must pass? He believed that some
measure was necessary, but he would oppose such a plan
of Reform as that introduced by Government. The Hon.
Member for Cake had said the question was, either the
Bill or anarchy. That was an argument only for a timid
assembly. The Hon. Baronet then argued that it would
be most absurd in those Metnbera who had opposed many
of the important clauses of the Bill, to vote for the third
reeling, because, if they disapproved of some of its prin-
cipal parts, yet voted for the passing of the Bill, they
acted like subjects under the control and comm and of a
despotic sovereign. Here he could not help alluding to
what had appeared in the daily papers, with regard to the
Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool. I: appeared from
these papers that a meeting had taken place in that town,
of the Political Union, an a report had been drawn up
with al the pomp and dignity of a deliberative assembly,
like that of the House of Commons. The Noble Lord's
conduct had been inquired into, his votes had been can-
vassed, and it had been decided that his conduct did not
come up to the feeling of the Political Union of Liverpool,
and that they had withdrawn their support from him. And
what had the Noble Lord done? He had, it was true,
voted against Ministers on some points, but so had many
Members in a former Parliament ; yet Ministers in the
new Parliament had adopted one important principle, on
which a division took place before the dissolution—he
meant the motion of General Gascoyne. Government
had agreed to the General's proposition, that the number
of Members should nut be diminished ; they baa agreed
also that a Member should be given to Mer-
thyr Tydvil—(Hear, hear)—though they bad previously
opposed it with all their power, and bad been obliged
to take a Member from Monmouthshire, in order to keep
up that proportion which they bad voted against on Ge-
neral Gascoyne's motion. The p'an of Ministers was five-
fold. It disfranchised sm all boroughs—enfranchised large
towns—altered the representation for counties, the quell-
, fication for counties and boroughs, and the period of elec-
tion. The plan altogether which was brought forward to
do away with anomaly, was the most anomalous of any
ever produced. It proposed to take away the franchise
from small places, and give it to large ones—yet, ab-
surdly enough, it left the franchise in boroughs not half
the size nor half the importance of many towns which
were to have no representatives. Another objection he
had to the Bill was the annihilating principle on which it
was founded. It went on the principle, in fact, of anni-
hilating all charters; and if it were to become the law of
the land, he might then ask what right had many Noble-
men to their estates, and so hat right had the descendants
of the House of Hanover to the throne of England ? The
Government, in bringing forward the measure, had first
of all contended that it was in order to preserve the Con-
stitution—that the Reform Bill only proceeded on the
great principles of the Constitution, as established at some
of the most important epochs of British history; but that
plea was in time abandoned, and they came to the doctrine
of expediency at last. The Bill had, in fact, been altered
four times. Ile would not allude to attempts made in
former times to carry some measure necessary for the
security of a Ministry. He would not dwell on the
creation of Peers made during the Ministry of the
Earl of Oxford, or on the infringement of the rights
of the Crown which such a measure was calculated
to bring about ; but he would declare at once that
he never would consent to the annihilation of any
ext-tang right or charter. Ile would not consent to
schedule A, because he was convinced that, by consent-
ing to that, the political rubicon would be passed.

He would, however, agree to such a change as could be
safely carried into effect ; but he would not destroy vested
and chartered rights. As an abstract question he would
say, that it would he only fair to give every man a vote,
and thus introduce universal suffrage ; but though in the
abstract such a plan might appear good in argument, it
' would be absurd in practice. It was equally absurd to
extend the franchise to 101. householders. Why fix on
that sum ? These 101. householders would be the repre-
sentatives of those under them, and what advantage would
that be over the present system? He next objected to the
vicious application of the principle of the Bill towards de-
cayed boruuhs, and to the 101. qualification. He objec-
ted also to giving so many Members to the metropolitan
districts, not only on account of the violence which would
be caused at the elections, but because be considered they
were already sufficiently represented by the numerous
Members who resided in town during the sitting of Par-
liament. There was one subject to which he could not for-
bear calling the attention of the House, on the eve of
passing the Bill—he meant the language of a most un-
constitutional nature which had been lately held in public,
and which was heard echoed in private, and which had,
indeed, been now and then even hinted at in that House
with regard to the question of New Peers being made
to carry the Bill.—(Hear, bear.)—The Hon. Mem-
ber for Hertford (Mr. T. Duncombe) had, on a former
occasion, called the attention of the House to that sub-
ject, and brought the matter before the House, as though
it would be a virtue in Earl Grey to recommend the King
to exercise his prerogative so as to ensure the passing of
the Bill in the Upper House of Parliament. It had been
said that letters had been written by a person in high
authority to those who were believed to be opposed to the
second reading of the Bill in the House of Peers, to know
how far they were disposed to go; thus making a com-
promise to a certain extent. Why, if it were intended to
inundate the house of Lords for the purpose of carrying
this Bill, which was described as being so easenti.l to the
circumstances of the times, if Ministers were going to ex-

ercise the prerogative of the Crown, never pushed so far
before, even in the reign of George the First—who did
not intend that the circumstance to which he now alluded
should ever be taken as a precedent—if the example of
Lord Oxford were now to be followed, and Peers were to
be created, he begged to ask Hon. Members whether they
could ever hope to have an independent vote in that as-
sembly?—(Hear, hear.) He would not dilate upon what
. .

an Hon. and Learned Gentleman had, in the course of the
debates upon this Bill, thrown out, that the Crown could
exercise its prerogative in another way, by issuing writs
to new towns to send 'Members, and suspend others for
places which had become decayed. This was a doctrine
of a dangerous nature, and one to which he (Sir R.
Vyvyan) never could subscribe. —( near, hear.) lie
then referred to the answer of Lord Oxford on his im-
peachment, who said that it was the pleasure of the Queen
that the Peers—only 12 in number—were created, and
it was not done at his desire. The Hon. Baronet, after
alluding to the mobs collected, and the windows broken
on the last Bill being rejected in the House of Lords, said

that the country ought to be thankful to the House of
Peers for what they had done last session, as it had given
the people breathing time to consider the Bill.—(Hear.)
. .

He believed that should the Bill be rejected again by the
Peers o❑ its second reading, the excitement would be

trifling compared with whit took place last Oc-
tober, on the last Bill being thrown out.—(Hear, hear.)
. _

. -
He begged to call the attention of the lion. Member for
Westminster to what had been said by Mirabeau.—(Hear.)

Mirabeau had declared he would stand by the Crown, and
in his reform plan he wished that the French Monarch
should sill be at the head. The result he need not state,
it being 30 familiar to the House. If the Reform measure
now before the House should pass, he entertained fears

and apprehensions as to the future, in common with
many who sat on the sAme side as he did ; b❑t he knew

that those who sat opposite did not feel those apprehen-

sions. All that he claimed was equal credit for sincerity
in such a belief, as he was willing to concede to those who
_ . _

differed from him.—(Hear.) It had been observed by
3ladame de Stael—(Hear)—doubtless the Hon. Gentle-
man who cried " Hear" were acquainted with the wordy

he was about quoting.—(A laugh.) Aladame deStaelhad

said " That no revolution of such a nature as that which

happened in France could have taken place unless part of
the aristocracy of the country and Government had had
. _

a hand in it.":--(Hear.) If, for party purposs, his Ma-
jesty's Ministers were able to alter the institutions of the

country, in order that they might preserve their places, it
ought not to be forgotten that they were responsible to
their Sovereign and to the country for all that must fol-
low. He then appealed to the House of Lords, and he hoped
that those Peers who had been instrumental in rejecting
the last Bill, would never again be called the whisper
of a fiction, calling upon them in the eleventh hour to save
the country from the danger with which it was now
threatened. He did not look upon the plan of Hon.
Gentleme❑ opposite as being the production of a Salon or
Lyon-gni. It was practicable to devise a plan of Reform
which would prove safe, and give satisfaction to the
country. He thought that Members might be found with-
out the entire disfranchisement of any boroughs ; and that
the annihilation of the charters might he avoided ; that
every borough might be still allowed to participate in the

election of Members. In short, he protested against ache.
Jule A, as much because it might become a precedent for
more important spoliation, as for the sake of the boroughs
themselves ; and he was of opinion that in the partial
disfranchisement of a sufficient number of boroughs, the
glaring injustice of violent spoilation might be obviated ;
while the new constituencies in towns and counties would
be provided for.
Sir J. Hobhouse, Mr. C. Grant, Sir C. Wetherell, Mr.
T. Duncomhe, and other Hon. Members, rose, but
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE first caught the Speaker's eye,
and proceeded.—The lion. Baronet had alluded to what
he had said on a former evening as to the creation of Peers.
The question that now arose was not as to the fare of the
Bill in that House, but i❑ the other House of Parliament.
The Hon. Baronet had spoken of revolutions; he had
wandered in different parts of the world, where he would
❑ot follow him, and had brought forward historical facts
on the subject; but the Hon. Baronet seemed to forget
that a revolution in the minds of men had taken place in
this country.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The people had
now awoke from their dream, and were no longer to he
imposed upon.—(Laughter.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite
would have been glad had the people still remained igno-
rant ; but they could no more impose upon the
people.—(Hear, and laughing.) Hon. Members might
sneer and taunt the people.—(Cries of " No, no.")
He would repeat they might sneer and taunt.—(No, no,
and laughter.) He would repeat the sneers and taunts
to the people.—(No, no.) He would repeat the sneers
and taunts offered by Hon. Members opposite to the people.
(Cries of " No," mingled with roars of laughter.) He
supposed that the sneers and taunts came from that side
the House—from those Hon. Members who conceived
that the middle and lower classes of society had no right
to have a voice in political affairs. With respect to the
creatio❑ of Peers, he begged to offer a word. The ques-
tion was, whether the Reform Bill was so important in
itself as to justify Ministers in the creation of such an ad-
ditional number of Peers as should secure its passing.—
(Hear.) Against the obstinacy of some, the folly of
others, and the episcopal conspiracy of a third party, it
was the duty of Ministers to protect the country, by ad-
vising the exercise of the Royal prerogative, and thus
avert the danger which must otherwise ensue from a se-
cond rejection of the Bill.—(Cries of " Heir, hear.") If it
was as was said, the intention of the House of Lords
to defeat the object of tie present Bill by means of mutila-
tion, and if by so doing they refused to preserve them-
selves, they must not hereafter complain if Peers were
created to compel them to that which would ultimately
be as essential a benefit to them as to the rest of the com-
munity. In conclusion, he would say that the Lords
would do well to recollect the words of Burke, who had
said that the people would no longer submit to bad go-
vernment because their ancestors had suffered worse ; that
they would no longer tolerate hoary-headed abuses, which
could neither inspire reverence nor acquire respect.—
(Much cheering.)
Sir C. WETHERELL said that notwithstanding all
the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman, he alight rest as-
sured that it was only when the great Kalends arrived
that Peers would be created, and not till then.—(Hear.)
He would undertake to convince, not the Hon. Member
for Hertford, for that would be a hopeless task, but the
other Members of that House, that a more gross viola-
tion of the Constitution, that a more gross exercise of the
Royal prerogative, could not be made than that of creating
Peers—a proceeding which the Hon. Member appeared to
think was correct and proper.—(Cheers.) They hail heard
of schedule A and of schedule B in that House until they
were sick of both one and the other of them—(A laugh )
and he should not, therefor e, press those schedules upon
their attention, but lie wo 141 give them a schedule of the
Peers created already by the present Government—the
Gentlemen who had been—be would not say transported
to the House of Lords—(A laugh)—but who hid gone
from their seats in the House of Commons to take their
places in the House of Peers. He should only premise that
he had not made this schedule himself. There was Lord
Saumarez, number one ; there was Lord Cloncurry, number
two ; Dinorben, number three. Indeed the list was so nu-
merous that it would take some time to tick off their names
iu the Blue Book—(A laugh)—and, as in keeping the num-
bers, he might possibly err, perhaps the Noble Lord
(Althorp) would make the response of the number
to each name as he called it.—(Much laughter.)
There was Templetnore, and then Seagrave, Mostyn,
Wenlock, Poltimore, Panmure, Hamilton, Ludlow, Dun-
more, Chaworth, Kenlis, Dovor, Rosse, Clements, Sefton,
Fingal, and Kilmarnock. If all these were not sufficient
to satisfy the Hon. Member, he would only say that large
must be his appetite.—(A laugh.) There was another
name, however—and, though last, not least—he meant a
Noble and Learned Friend of his, Lord Brougham and
Vaux, who though possessed of these conjunct titles, yet
was hut a single individual Peer.—(A laugh.) Those
Noble Lords having done their duty in the House of Corn •
mons, and having voted many of them in favour of the
Reform Bill, are then sent into the House of Lords, where
they again support the same Bill, he supposed upon the
principle that it could not be amiss to do a righteous act
twice over.—(Much laughter.) The lion. Member,
however, asserted that the Ministry must make more
Peers ; but he would ask how many more were to
be created, and how was it to be done? He was not so
clever at metaphor as the Hon. Member for Caine (Mr.
Macaulay), but he would try his hand at an appropriate
nne on the present °cession. They had all, doubtless,
often seen a groom or a coachman casting trusses of straw
into the loft of astable with a pitchfork; and if they had,
they hail then no exemplification of the mode in which
Peers were to be pitchforked into the House of Lords.—
( Laughter and cries of" Oh.') How would Lord Dinorben
or Lord Panmure, or Lord Mostyn, like to be thus pitch-
forked ? If such a step were to be taken it would,
is effect, be degrading the Peers into tools and instruments
of despotic power, and sinking them as the Peers of
France were sunk in the time of the revolution, to a state
of slavery and imbecility. The Hon. Member had said
that B irons bold should be sent into the House, who
would do their duty. Did he remember that they had
already sent 20 B .rons bold, and that they must have 60
more of these heroes of Runnymede at least ?—(Continued
laugl.ter and cheers.) He knew not whether or not Hon.
Members bad seen the papers of the day, in which it was

held forth that the head of the Government was, jade-like,
flinching from his duty, and that he required to be spurred
on to the creation of Peers. He did not know whether
Peers were or were not to be ereated, but he so far doubted
the possibility of such an event, that he hid postponed his
notice of motion upon the subject, which he should not
have done if lie thought the making of a new batch of
Peels was a matter seriously in contemplation.—(Hear.)
Such a measure would, as he had already stated, be a gross
violation of the Constitution. He had, on a former occa.

sion, heard his Learned Friend, the Attorney-General,
contend that it was within the prerogative of the Crown
to suspend the issue of a writ for any particular
borough it pleased ; but he would dare him to get
up in his place and maintain that the creation of
Peers to carry a particular question was consistent
with the principles of the Constitution. No one of the
acts of tyranny adopted by James the Second, and
for which he had been expelled from the throne
of these kingdoms, could be compared in atrocity to this
of creating Peers for the open and avowed purpose of ex-

. .
inguishing the free agency of the House of Lords..—
Cheers.) He should not then eater int,) any explana-
.

tion its to the substance of the Bill of Rights; but he
should observe that the complaint against James IL was
that he had suspended the laws in contravention of the
Bill of Rights. Now, he would ask if thus creating
Peers to cal ry a particular measure was not a suspension
of the laws of the land ?—(Rear, hear.) James 11. had

sent to the Sheriffs throughout the kingdom, telling them
to re!urn Members to the House ~f Commons favourable
to his views, which was, in effect, packing a House of
Commons. Now he wished to ask if it would not be a
still more flagrant packing of the House of Peer► if a num-
ber of new ones were to be at once created with a view to
the success of a Ministerial project ?—(Cheers.) The Bill
of Rights also guaided against the packing of Juries ; but

he would leave it even to Lieutenant Drummond to deter-

mine whether sending Aleinbere to the House of Peers for
the purpose of carrying the Reform Bill was not in effect

packing a House of Lords.—(A laugh.) Dou ham Hon.

Members would remember the impeachment of Lord Oz-

ford for creating Peers under nearly similar circumstances ;
and they would also remember that he escared, not becau,e
the offence was not one of great magnitude, but because he

admitted that some one was certainly in fault, but
that he was not that pei son. Now, suppose the Noble
Lord at the head of the present Government were to be

similarly impeached, should he venture upon a creation of
Peers, could he say " I am not the adviser of this mea-
sure ?" On whom, then, should they cast the blame ?
Was it on the Lord Privy Se.il ?—(Cheers from the Op-
position benches.) Or, if not, would the Noble Lord op-
posite (Althorp) say, " In me convertite telum 9"—
(Loud and continued cheering.) Ttie Noble Lord might
smile in self-security, knowing that no Peers would be
made ; but he (Sir C. Wetherell) not knowing whether
such a creation would or would not take place, must pro-
ceed in uncertainty. Could the advice to make Peers be
imputed to Lord Brougham and Vaux ? That Noble Lord
would fail buck aghast at the bare imputation.—(Cheers
and laughter.) He would be almost doubled back at hear-
ing it.--(Cheers.) It was impossible to suppose that lie
would consent to putting the blue wax to fifty or sixty new
in an able article patent, in the face of what lie had wFitterl

in the .Edinburylt Review, in which LI maintained that,
through the means of this borough influence, cenflicte had
been avoided between both Houses of Parliament.—( Hear. )
This was the strongest argument he had ever heard in sup•
port of the existence of nomination boroughs, and be could
never believe that after writing such an opinion, his
Noble and Learned Friend could ever consent to affix
the Great Seal of England to patents for the express pur-
pose of swamping and destroying the Peerage, and, he
might add, the Crown also. The Noble Lord would re-
member that Lite:ye ecriptea manent ; and though be bad
not gone so far as to condemn the Bill, which had ori-
ginated with other parties, yet he had avowed that borough
demolition formed no part of his plan.—(Hear.) He
hoped the Noble Lord would not retract from what he had
written, and spoken also on more than one occasion, and
that he would not consent to abuse the conscience of his
master by adopting a plan which had received unequivocal
denunciation from his own writing, as well as from bis
own speeches, uttered on more occasions than one. He
would, for the sake of argument, assume that Peers were
to be made, and he would then ask the Government if
they were aware of the case of Lord-Treasurer Middlesex?
Their friends out of doors were bullying them, and driving
them at the point of the bayonet, the spur not being
deemed sufficient; but they would do well to consider
that case. He would not attempt to lay down the extent
to which the power of the Peers might be carried, but
they all knew that the House of Commons had power to
expel any Member for a crime disgraceful to his cha-
racter. The writers upon our Constitution asserted
the right of the Peers similarly to expel a Member
from their body ; and this right was established
by the expulsion of Lord Middlesex for the misap-
propriation of the moneys he received as Treasurer. Ile
would put the case of Lord Grey after making a batch of
Peers to carry the Reform Bill. Though Lord Oxford
was not expelled, it was because he denied his guilt; but it
might happen that if the Noble Lord and his fifty or sixty
Peers were impeached, that consequences might come
upon which he would not hazard an opinion. He would
call their attention to what took place in France under the
sway of Charles X. Sixty Peers were created for a par-
ticular purpose, but when the revolution came they were
at once driven out. If persons could be got to degrade
themselves by accepting the Peerage under such circum-
stances, he should ouly say they deserved to be treated as
ignominious vassals, as tools submitting to ignominy,
which fell meritedly upon their heads. Who, he would
ask, was it that would have those Peers made? The
declaimers against nomination boroughs!!—(Loud cheer-
ing)—the boroughs which the Hon. Member for Caine
had described as being the cholera of the Constitution.—
(Hear, hear.) Yet these declaimers against nomination
boroughs were the very persons to support and suggest the
propriety of sending Peers to the House of Lords as nomi-
nees of the Crown—(Continued cheering)—some of them
going there after giving written cbligations to vote
as directed by the Ministry ; and all under a promise,
or with an understanding, that their votes should be
similarly subservient to the order of the Governrant.—
(Cheers.) He assumed this to be the case, because such
were the sole means by which they could be enabled to
load themselves with ignominy, for ignominy it was to go
into the House of Peers bound to act in accordance with
the views of others, even if those views should be opposed
to the better understanding of the parties.—(Much cheer-
ing.) Was there, he would ask, any man in or out of the
House, who would have the'face to denounce nomination
boroughs, and yet in the same breath, and in the face of
that denunciation, consent to arm Ministers with a power
far more direct than would be exercised through the means
of those boroughs ?—(Loud and continued cheering.) He
saw many Hon. Gentleman of great respectability on the
other side of the House, who, under different circum-
stances, might, in their abstract capacity, be pitchforked
into the House of Peers, but looking to their complacent
countenances, he was led to believe that there was not one
of them who would wish to be included in the list of the 30
or 40 Peers who were to bear the opprobrium, the disgrace,
of carrying this violent, unconstitutional measure. Where
the men were to come from who would be ready to do
so he could not possibly say. He could not conceive
that any Gentleman in that House would be disposed
to forego the estimable character of an independent
Member of Parliament for the degradation of a " Baron
bald." (Loud cheers.) He felt convinced that
from whatever quarter these Runnymede heroes were
to come, it could not be from the other side of the House.
The Minister who should attempt to offer such violence
to the Constitution would act with the imbecility of an
old woman, but he (Sir C. Wetherell) would rather com-
pare him to a Tarquin. But whether he might be re-
garded as an old woman or as a devastating spoliator, one
thing was quite obvious, namely, that the attempt could
not be carried into execution unless the Bill of Rights
were violated and the King placed in the same light as
James 11. In fact, no one infraction of the laws and Con
stitution of the land would be equivalent with that of
sending Peers into the House of Lords for the put pose of
intimidating, subduing, annihilating, the independent
agency of one of the three estates of the realm.--(Cheers.)
Surely no Member of that House could for a moment
think of deserting his duty as an independent Member of
Parliament. That man must he a base and recreant de-
loaf-twat who should neglect to bring under the immediate
consideration of the House so gross and glaring a violation
of the Constitution as the creation of Peers for such a
purpose. He would tell the Hon. Member for Hertford
that some small difficulties were to be get over before the
House of Lords could be forced into the second reading of
the Bill. While upon this subject, he could not help ad-
verting to the recent landing of the French at Ancona.
That event was a natural consequence of the Reform Bill.
—(Cheers and laughter.) He would ask, did gentlemen
recollect who it was that had urged a recommendation
upon the Bishops of the Protestant Church for the pur-
pose of influencing their votes in the House of Lords?
Was it not a Minister of the Crown?
Lord ALTHORP rose to order. He considered it to
bs quite irregular for any Hon. Member to advert to what
had taken place in the House of Lords.
Sir C. WETHERELL admitted that he was wrong in
point of order : but he might be permitted to advert to
what had occurred elsewhere, no matter what place that
might be. Did Hon. Gentlemen recollect what was
lately done in a certain country in which there was an in-
dependent Parliament ? Did they recollect what was done
for the purpose of intimidating the Protestant Bishops of
that country ?—(Cheers.) It was upon record that the
Prime Minister of a free country (he did not say England)
told the Spiritual Lords of a free Parliament that it was
high time they should " set their house in order." Tae
same historian who narrated this fact asserted, at the same
tune, that the house of one of the Protestant Bishops was
set in order in a very odd sort of way. The house of that
Bishop was demolished, and his manuscripts were all de

stroye.l:—( Loud cheers.) A certain Prime Minister of
another country, a gentleman named Casimir Perier,
seeing what was done by his brother Prime Minister of
a different State, very naturally said to himself, " Well, I
shall send fifteen hundred men to the Bishop of Rome to
assist him in keeping his house in order."—(Cheers and
laughter.) He (Sir C. Wetherell) contended that all the
French had dune in Italy did not differ in any respect
(ruin what others had done in a certain country which
should be nameless. He maintained that in consequence
of the Reform Bill the French had availed themselves of
the power to do that which otherwise they would not
have ventured to have done. He insisted that the Re-
form Bid had thrown this country into confusion, had
supplanted all confidence, and stimulated and excited
the French to acts which, under other circumstances,
they never would have presumed to attempt. How
did it happen that in this new scheme of Reform, the
interests of the West Indies and the East Indies were
altogether lost sight of ? Our colonies in neither
hemisphere were to have any Representatives. Nu
Member was to be returned for the Ganges, rich as that
river was rendered by the vast resources of the region
through which it flawed. How very different was it with
a river much nearer home ! Then, well might he say un-
happy Ganges!--happy Tyne!—(Laughter.) Bat he
would ask, would anyone for a moment imagine that this
country would be able to preserve her relations with her
colonies under the new order of things, unless certain per-
sons were returned to Parliament as the organs and con-
servators of colonial interests?--(Here the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman experienced some :momentary inter-
ruption from the gallery to the right of the Chair.) He
perceived that some individual in the gallery was disposed
to mirth on the present occasion. Now he could only say
that there were in certain places of amusement galleries to
which persons might be admitted at two shillings, one
shilling, or even less; but he hoped never to see any gal-
lery of that kind constructed within the walls of St.
Stephen's Chapel. The effect of this Bill would be to se-
parate Great Britain from the whole world, and thus re-
alize what was Said in one of the Eclogues of Virgil--
penitus toto divisos orbe Britan "
He would not trespass upon the indulgence of the House
with any further observations. Ha had stated, with con-
fidence, his decided opinion that in hastening through this
House the inimical, antisocial, and unconstitutional Re•
form Bill, its supporters did that which must ultimately
take from the Crown its ancient possessions, both in this
country and in the colonies.

The ATTORNEY-GEN- ERAL then rose, and began
by observing that in no gallery to which admission might be
had even at the minimum price, could such entertain-
ment be found as that AQW created by his Hon. and

Learned Friend, who hail set at defiance all the unities of
time and action. His Hon. and Learned Friend, in his
excursive wanderings had now gone to Thebes, now to
Athens, and studiously avoided all topics except that which
was the subject of debate.—(A Laugh.) Considering
how very unexpectedly his Hon. Friend the Member for
Hertford had started the hare about the Peerage in the
thickets surrounding his neighbourhood, he (the Attorney-
General) could not help feeling some surprise bow his
Hon. and Learned Friend, who had just sat down, could
have possessed:himself of the list of all those persons who had
been recently elevated to the Peerage, and given to the
House such a running commentary upon them. His Hon.
and Learned Friend came forward to offer what the House
would know how to appreciate Hs his sincere compliment
to his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack. He
first expressed his doubt as to whether his Noble and
Learned Friend was not the writer of a certain article
in the Edinburgh Review, and he took occasion to con-
vert that doubt into a fact in a most extraordinary mm-
ner. But this he (the Attorney-General) well knew,
that if the Lord Chancellor was the writer of that or any
other article, he would he the very last man to shrink
from any responsibility attaching to it. If the responsi-
ble Ministers of the Crown had done any aet in which
they were not warranted, let them be fairly brought to an
account for their conduct, but let not the Crown itself be
placed in danger.—(Cheers.) The language of his Hon.
Friend and of others in that House was applied, not to his
Majesty's Ministers but to a single individual, who, from his
illustrious station and well-known devotion to the laws and
Constitution of the country, ought to be spared from any
imputations of the kind. The attack was made upon a
personage whose conduct defied all assault—
._ Areiva quern non poswnt phalange,: aternere."
Allusion was made to the case of James 11., and the im-
peachment of Lord Oxford. It was well known that
Lord Oxford stood the brunt of that impeachment; so
would the present Ministers, if any proceeding of the kind
were instituted against them.—(Cheers.) Lord Oxford,
however, made a mean and despicable defence, and sacri-
ficed the interests of his Royal mistress. No such defence
would be made by the present Ministers, for they felt their
public conduct to be above reproach. Words of the most
reprehensible description were used in reference to an Il-
lustrious Personage. He was told, in the language of
Scripture, that, on the day he should give his assent to
the Reform Bill, he would see the hand-writing on the
wall, and behold that as the day on which he should cease
to reign. Was not this the language of menace, used in the
most offensive manner ? Talk of the Bill of Rights, for-
sooth ! For his own part, he would not waste the time of
the House by touching upon that topic. He would ask
whether any Honourable Member who represented in that
House any of the boroughs classed in schedule A, had any
right to raise a question about the prerogative of the
Crown to create Peers ?—(Hear, hear.) He contended
that the Crown possessed the right, and it was most inde-
cent, most unconstitutional, and most disorderly, to ques-
tion it. It had been said that the trade and commerce of
the country was paralysed by the suspense and delay in
the settlement of the Reform Bill. That there was some
foundation for that observation he did not mean to deny.
Doubtless great inconvenience had arisen from the delay of
the settlement of this question. lie was not now going
to inquire to whom the delay of this measure, and the
suspense which was the result of that delay, should be
charged.—(Hear, hear.) He should only observe that the
observation did not apply to the merits of the Bill now
that it had arrived to the third reading.—(Hear, hear.)
But then it was said that the Tyne was well represented,
and that the Ganges was left without representation. A
new light hid been thrown in on his Hon. and Learned
Friend (Sir C. W'etherell) on this point. It appeared to
have been quite forgotten by those who argued fur the ex-
pediency of colonial representation, that under the admira-
ble and perfect system which had hitherto existed, and
which the opponents of this Bill were so anxious should
continue unaltered, the colonies had nothing but virtual
representation.—(Hear, hear, hear, from the Opposition
benches.) It also appeared to be forgotten that it was
during the existence of that excellent system of virtual re-
cporeusnetnryta.ti,oinftetrhaatllththeeAdite
discussions
colonies
mwhich whaderte lost
aken ptloactelLis
after the principle had been discussed on three several oc-
casions upon motions for a second reading—after the pro-
test of the Right Hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr.
Croker), comprehending all the objections of that Right
Hon. Gentleman and.his friends to the principle and details
of the Bill, he did expect that the discussion on the third
reading would have taken a very different turn. He had
expected that Hon. Members opposed to the measure
would have argued that, although the Bill had been read
a second time, it ought not to be read a third time. He
had heard no such arguments, ho svever, from any gen-
tleman who had addressed the House. He did not say
that the Bill was perfect—no measure of the kind could
be perfect.—(Hear, hear.) But the objections were quite
wonderful for their" paucity and trivial character. The
Bill was not so much the Bill of Ministers as of the House
of Commons. After the appeal to the constituent body
on the question of Reform, and the manner in which that
appeal had been answered, the House became the parent
of the Bill ; hut when it was asserted that the majority
came in pledged blindly to support the Bill, he niu*t be
allowed to dissent from that proposition. The Ministers
were outvoted on the tenant-at-will clauses, and he was
glad they were, for he considered that the country gen-
tlemen now stood pledged not to interfere with the
conscientious votes of their tenants by ejecting them.
It was said in the course of the debate that it would be a
severe reflection on our ancestors to say that corrupt sales
of seats in that House, had been made by borough proprie-
tors. The Catholic Relief Bill, and the repeal of the Test
Acts, according to this doctrine, were also reflections on
our ancestors, and on our near ancestors too.—(A laugh.)
In fact, no improvement could be made in any of the ex-
isting institutions which did not convey such a reflection
on those who had gone before ; and the Right Hon. Biroi,et,
the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel), had rendered
himself liable to such an imputation by hit amendments
of t,,e criminal law.—( Heir, hear.) There were some
objections made in the course of the debate, which were
equally applicable to any proposition fur Reform, and
which he (the Attorney-General) confessed he had on

expected to hear. It was said that the Nabob of Arcot
ought to have Members in that House to represent him.
If seats were to be sold, there was no reason, certainly,
why the Nabob of Arcot might not have his representa-
tive ; and, on the saute principle, Don Miguel, the
loved Ferdinand, and all the other potentates in the world,
might be represented in that House, and the Gangs
might be better represented than the Tyne. Great regret
was expressed by one Hon. Member that the religion of
Bratnah was not represented ; and he supposed that, ac-
cording to this liberal doctrine, the humane practice of
burning widows should have an advocate in that House,
and the use of the scourge in the West Indies considered
as the symbol of freedom, whilst the Orders of Council
were treated as a Russian ukase. He denied that the
principle of Reform had brought on excitement. Before
any measure of Reform was introduced the public mind
was in a state of great turbulence and excitement, and that
excitement was tranquillised by the introduction of the
Reform Bill, which acted like a charm. It was the op-
position which produced the excitement on this question—
an opposition on the part of those who were considered

by the people as interested judges deciding in their
own cause.—(Hear, hear.) Another objection to the
Bill had been that it was an untried scheme, and, there-
fore, should not be passed ; but that was one of the objec-
tions which applied equally to every measure of Reform.
But then it was said that the Reform might have been
gradual. He put it to any reasonable man, however, if
the peace of the country would have been better secured if
Reform had been doled out piecemeal What would this
he but to leave the question fur ever unsettled ?—(Hear,
hear.) It was said the country would have been satisfied
with a less measure ; but those who used that argument
hail never described the measure they were prep ,red to
bring forward in lieu of the present. It was impossible,
therefore, to adopt a measure the principle of which they
could not know, and were at a loss to conceive, as a sub-
sti ute for one which had met with the universal approba-
tion of the people of England. That this measure had
obtained the approbation of a great majority of the people
of England he had expected would not now be denied.
Those who opposed the Bill said that House already repre-
sented the people of England. Of the Members of that

House, then (deducting— those who were interested for
places affected by the Bill, and which they defended), how
large a majority had voted in favour of the measure. As
to its probable effect he had no doubt that in every fair

and reasonable sense of the word, it would be a final mea-
sure. He did not think that popular feeling would come,
as had been said, with a force like that of the waves of the

sea, and make further encroachments on our existing in-
stitutions.--(Hear, hear.) Such a result would be pre-
vented by a generous concession in the first instance.
When it was said that the measure would not be final,
he wished to ask why it should nut be final ?
He who wore the Crown, could not be anxious that it
should not be final. Ministers who exercised the power
of the Clown must be anxious that it should be final ;
and the middle and the scot king classes, having seen the
effects in other countries of even the most justifiable revo-
lution, had been taught a lesson which they were intelli-
gent enough to learn, and could not easily forget, and
which must make them desire that this measure should be
final. He believed that much of the opposition to this
measure bad Proceeded from ignT.a9(4; of the feelings of

`l,ll

•r

people, and that this ignorance of the highet e!a se: was
to be ascribed to the state of the representation. The only
knowledge the higher classes poseeseed, as to the feelings
of the lower classes, was that obtained by contact with
those voters who were ready to barter their privileges for
the basest consideration. In conclusion, he cont,n led
that the measure now before the House, would not only
satisfy the people, but establish the Constitution on a per-
manent basis. It only remained now for the lion eof
Commons to read it a third time, arid send it up to the
other House with a majority which would show how
much the Representatives of the people appreciated the
measure. The majority, he repeated, had not acted
blindly on this occasion, for they had improved the
Bill in many respects since it was first introduced. By
passing it, he was convinced the law would lie more re-
spected and the Constitution better secured. The Legis-
lature, by adopting this measure, would act on the only
real conservative principle—the benefit of the people ;
and, if it was carried, he hoped and trusted it would tend
to establish and preserve the Constitution of this country
in grandeur and strength to the most remote period.__.
(The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then sat down
amidst cheers.)
Mr. PERCEVAL then rose and addressed the House,
from the back benches, in an emphatic tone and with
solemn gesture—Men, do ye sit here?_(Laughter.) In
whose name do ye sit here? In His name, at the mention
of whom the titter and the sneer came forth from among
ye: and yet ye sit here in utter forgetfulness of Him from
whom alone all counsels, wisdom, and light have come.—
(Oh, oh; Order.) Think ye.—(Laughter, confusion, and
cries of " Chair, and adjourn")—l say to this House, do
ye expect that any blessing will come to this nation:—do
ye expect that the greatest of all works, the work of esta-
blishing the roots and basis of the Constitution, the greatest
work that human counsels and the wisdom of man was
ever called upon in this nation to perform? do ye expect,
for one instant, that in utter forgetfulness of all that the
has taught to bear in mind ? do ye expect any blessing
on the labour of man in such a work as this—who ac-
knowledge Him not in the work, who think not of Him
in the work, who sit day after day, and night after night
in Council, without bestowing one thought on Him ? Ex-
cept the Lord build the house, their Wiour is but lost
who build it—except the watchman keep the city.—
(Laugh ter. ) Do ye say for one instant that your work can
be blessed ? How stands the account of this House
with their God at this time ?—(Adjourn.) How stands,
I say, the account of this House with their God, let me
ask ye. Twice have ye been called upon—twice have the
Members of this House been called upon to humble them-
selves before God, and to seek the blessings of Him in con-
trition and confess;on from whom alone a blessing—(The
remainder of the Hon. Member's sentence was lost in the
confusion, arising from a number of Members rising up
and quitting the House)—Aye ! depart when God is
named. Ye would have staid in this House till five or six
in the morning had not His name been mentioned.
Mr. HUNT thought that an adjournment was the ob-
ject of the Hon. Gentleman, which he would, therefore,
move.

1

Lord ALTHORP here rose and said, if an adjournment
was the object of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, he should
not oppose it.
Mr. PERCEVAL—No, I have no intention to move
an adjournment ; but I tell the House that they would
have sat till five o'clock to hear any man who did nut
name God ; and now let the House sit down arid hear
me.—(014.) I stand here to warn men of the judgment
of God that is coming on them ; to warn them of the
judgment of God that is at hand. Do ye think I stand
here
this House in their career ? No, I stand here in
reliance on Him, in whose name and by whose despised
with
his nay t ownnis t
en in n my own strength to stop the five or mix hundred
m
love, I implore ye to listen to me for a moment ; ye may
cast off the appeal, but I will make it. I stand here not
the
Housestrength have r
twicef been
called on to humble themselves before God.—(Question.)
How did they get rid of that question in the first instance ?
By the subterfuge of miserable formalities, Mark how
their God caused them to show forth the utter contempt
of his name which existed among them—the scorn of
God which raged in the midst of ye. Ye had a Bill
brought into this House touching this matter, and when
it was simply proposed to ye that 3e should insert in that
Bill a simple declaration that the scourge to which it re-
ferred came by Divine Providence, ye cast out the name
of God. I will tell the House what is their Gode It is
the people, whom they exalt in the place of their God',
and before whom they bow down and worshipped with •
the most abject and degraded worship. Now mark, in
this Bill the name of God was not to be mentioned.
A MEMBER under the gallery rose to order. The Bill
alluded to had been passed.
Mr. PERCEVAL—I apprehend what I say is as fit to
be considered as any question that cart be brought forwar4:
I will show the House a reason why they can expect no
prosperity to attend their labours. How can they after
such idolatries? For the sake of tile people of England
ye rejected the name of your God—to please them that
name was not to be mentioned ; but in the Scotch Bill—
because the people wished it—at the bidding of the people
of Scotland—because they raised their voice in its favour,
it was inserted. No such voice was raised in England.
This, therefore, shows that the notice of Divine Provi-
dence was introduced in the Bill, not for the recognition
of God, but in obedience to the mandate Of the people.
So much for this House. I have shewn to this House how
their account stands with God. Twice did they refuse to
humble themselves before him, and now those that profess
to have instituted this Fast have not done it in the true
spirit that should govern such a step—they have not ap-
proached the Lord with that humiliation which, amidst
the deep and awful calamity which impends over this land,
should have marked their approach ; with them it is but
a solemn mockery—they have nut in their hearts humili-
ated themselves before their God, and he will not accept
the proffered service at their hands ; he will not be mocked
—the searcher of hearts will not accept that which is
false. He knows full well that it was nut from their hearts
they gave that counsel to the King—he knows full well
that they did not approach him in contrition, humiliation,
and repentance ; there was not one amongst them to hum-
tia,
ble himself before God—not one advanced towards the
Throne of the Almighty in a spirit of penitence for their
iniquities, neither did they look at nor estitnate as it de-
served, that dreadful disease which comes to us as the
scourge of an offended G d, which comes to us in the out-
pourings of his righteous indignation—yes, the spirit in
which he is approached is a mockery, and he will not away
with it—there shall be woe, and sorrow, and weeping,
and gnashing of teeth. It is too late, perhaps—you
might have averted this calamity if you had turned to
your Goel early, and with spontaneous worship the Al-
mighty would have been appeased ; but as it is, I fear
we are cast away—there is a curse on it—there is a
curse on the land—there has been a curse upon us from
the commencement of that proceeding. [Here an Hon.
Member near Mr. Perceval addressed a few words to
him, which were not audible in the gallery.] No, I
shall—l shall go on—l have committed myself to this
task in much prayer, and I will not be turned away by
man from that wherein 1 have devoted myself to God. I
tell this House the land will be desolate. Yet a little
while, and ye shall lament and howl, for I tell you the land
will be desolate. The pestilence which has hitherto been
held in by a long-suffering God shall be let loose, and I
tell you the sword will follow it ; but do I utter these
words of tnyself? No, they are the words of God. I tell
the House more—the Church of this land shall be laid low
—you may see its fall coming—it is corrupt before God,
and has played the harlot with strangers, and the arm of
flesh shall smite her; but he will show the vanity of an
arm of flesh opposed to the righteous retribution of an
offended God. Then will your eyes sae that which your
hearts now gainsay. Trouble not your:elves about
this Bill, it is your doom. I say the Bill is your doom.
You may think me mad—You may think me beside myself;
but you shall soon know whether I speak of myself, or
utter the words of truth and of God. I tell you the whole
thing is but a mockery. You have sworn to be the faithful
servants of the King ; but look into your own hearts, and
if you have any self-knowledge, you will see that you care
not for the King. You think you have caught him as in
a net; but he is tire Lord's anointed, and shall escape.
Mr. SHAW hoped his Hon Friend would allow him
to say that continuing his observations further would be
n effect inducing the House to act contrary to the principle
,if his own motion. He was in effect preventing them
from observing that day in a becoming manner, which it
hid been so much an object with him to have observed as
a day of fast and humiliation. It was his (Mr. Shaw's)
opinion that they ought not to sit any longer there as a
House of Commons on the morning of that day, and he
should therefore leave the House—not that he had any ob.
ction to bear the nettle of God mentioned in that House.
He real .y• thought that Iris duty required him not to sit
:here any longer.—(Mr. Shaw immediately left the House.)
Mr. PERCEVAL made a few observations in reference
to what had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member
who had spoken last, but in a low tone of voice. He
then went on to say—They may think they have caught
the King in a net ; but, as 1 have already told them, ire is
he Lord's anointed—his heart is in the hand of the
Lord, and they shall not hold him. Though they
think they have him within tin it power, they may-
be assured they deceive themselves; for those who ap-
proach the Lord in a spirit of mockery, do but work their
own ruin; but, however, they may annulate, there are

gr.T.7

T 4117

men in the!land who wit' humble themselves before GoJ
in a true spirit of fasting, and of prayer, and of repentance;
and to whom that humiliation will be paid back in an
abundant flood of blessings. But how awful wiil that
retribution he which shall pursue the men who have been
ill along forgetting their God, and setting hie edicts at 41e-
tance! Let such men "set their houses in order ;" the
storm is whistling around their walls. I caution you, ere
it be too late, to take shelter in the arms of that God who
it yearning to save you. Ask yourselves what have you done
for his honour? Where is your love for him—for hint
who died on the Cross to save you—whose blood flowed
even unto the ground, that you might live in eternal glory ;
and though this were the last time that I should ever
speak in this House, I would still caution them, before it
is too late, to beware, and not proceed headlong in the
course they are pursuing. He is coming—their God and
Saviour is coining—he is nigh.
An Hox. Mg:staga here rose, and said that there were
s'rangers in the House.

The SPEAKER ordered strangers to withdraw, and
Mr. Perceval instantly ceased, and left the House.
Indescribable confusion prevailed doting great part of
the lion. Gentleman's speech. The Members etnod
grouped on the floor, or in the galleries, eagerly observing
and the cries of " Order" and " Adjourn," together
with the noise caused by gentlemen retiring, occasioned
frequent interruptions, and rendered some of the Hon.
Gentleman's observations inaudible in the gallery.
The motion for the adjournment of the debate was then
put and cart ied.
The other orders of the day having been gone through,
the House adjourned at One o'clock.
URDE

R of a WOMAN by HER OWN SON,

Last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, the utmost
alarm prevailed among the inhabitants of Francis-street,
New Cut, Lambeth, by a report that a woman, named
Connell, had been murdered by her own eon, who had heat
her brains out with a pair of bellows. On inquiry into
the circumstances, we were furnished, from an authentic
source, with the following particulars :—lt appears that a
man and his wife, named Connell, with their family, occupy
apartments on the first floor at No. 20, in Francis-street.
About ten o'clock the son, a man between 24 and 25
years of age, in the employ of Mr. Cox, broker,
Waterloo-road, came home and requested to have some
bacon for supper, but his mother, who, it appears, was
the worse of liquor, made use of some had language to-
ward,* him, and refused to allow him to cook his
supper by the tie. A quarrel ensued, and the young
man, who was blowing the fire at the time, threw the bel-
lows at Lis mother in a paroxysm of passion in so violent
manner that the nuzzle entered the temple close to the
left eye and penetrated tirtbe brain. The son, observing
the horrible act he had committed, ran to his unfortunate
parent's assistance, and -pulled out the instrument of death,
but it had penetrated so dtep, that his father, who was sit-
ting near him at the time, was obliged to assist in the
Withdrawal of it. The woman died almost immediately,
and the man was taken into custody, when he attempted to
terminate his own existence by stabbing himself with a
deasert knife. The knife, however, was prevented enter-
ing deeply by coming in contact with a rib, and before he
knife from his grasp. He was conveyed to the Waterloo Sta.
tin'', end Mr. S. Smith, Inspector on duty, ou receiving a
communication front Mr. Cooke, the surgeon, that the
woman was dead, went to the house. On examining the
bellow,' he found it saturated with blood, and the pipe to the
depth of upwards of an inch filled with a portion of the
skull,
A great quantity of blood was un t!e floor. It
W.B the opinion of several persons that the point of the
bellows must have been thrust into the head of the woman,
they deeming it impossihla such a wound could be inflicted
by merely throwing the bellows. We understand, how-
ever, that the father and sister of the prisoner, who wit-
': nesse(' the dreadful occurrence, confirm the prisoner's
staternent, that he hurled the bellows at his mother. He
had Previously attempted to do so, but was prevented by
his Sister. The prisoner is a stout-made man, and had
returned from sea about six months. He was lately em-
ployed in tarring the works of Vauxhall Bridge, and from
thence went into the employ of Mr. Cox, broker. He
poly returned last nightfrom keeping possessioma of a
house where his employer had distrained.

- gives us pleasure to learn that our gallant
and chivalrous countryman, Lord Cochrane, will be imme.ed
received
as restored to his tank in the navy. This will be eets,
as a boon by every individual in that branch of the public ser-
vice.—Scolsman.
Government have, it seems, determined to
take the management of roads in England and Wales into
consideration. Yesterday morning Mr. Lamb gave notice of
a Bill " to amend and consolidate the laws relating to high.
vays in England and Wales," for the 2.3 d instant.
Yesterday the despatches for St. Helena,
:::; Wales's Island, Singapore, and China, by the ship
•..ndsor, Captain Andrew Frederick Proctor, were closed at
''.he East India House, and delivered to the purser of that ship.
OXFORD ETHICS.—Sir R. highs set right,
with conscientious accuracy, the story that the Nabob of Oude
hi'd eight Members in Parliament. He had been favoured, he
said, With a sight of the doe
and he
relating to the transaction,
-5 found the story was grossly exaggerated,—the fart was,
he said, that the .Nabob had only four. Sir R. Inglis will re_
mind the reader of a lady complaining of a current calumny
that she had twins before she was married, whereupon a corn.
Porter--less sincere, we fear, than Sir Robert—assured her that
he never believed more than half what people said on such
occasions.
The approaching meeting of Bank Proprie-
tors, which takes place on Thursday, is expected to elicit some-
thing interesting as regards the renewal, or otherwise, of the
crew soh
Probably the Directors, too, may be induced by the
situation sion to afford a little more light to their constituents on the
of their own affairs. If they decline explaining the
whole of the grounds on which the dividend is made, they may
: at least condescend to answer a question which was much
pressed at the last meeting as to the amount of undivided pro-
fits. On the 31st of March, 1819, the Bank delivered in a state-
ment of its affairs to Parliament, by which it appeared that the
' balance of undivided profits was then 5,231,190/. The question
now to be asked is, what has become of this money ?—if any of
it remains; and if any, how much :—Tuxes.
SELECT VESTRIES.--The parishioners of
St. Giles Without, Cripplegate, have not slumbered at their
, ' Post, for, notwithstanding the powerful influence of the Select
Veitry patty, the open Vestry Committee have in four days
obtained sufficient votes to secure the adoption of Sir J. C.
ilObliouse's-Bill, provided they have fair play. It is rumoured
in the parish that the churchwarden will reckon the arrear
rate-payers:(who are disqualified by the Bill to vote) against
the gross number of qualified rate-payers who have voted for
the adoption.
Those who have approved of the fast day, anti
who have kept it religiously, must feel rather vexed at being
told by Mr. Perceval in his speech, that "the fast, in the eye
of God, is a solemn mocker
tbe fast is of Mr. y which lie will not away with." As
l 'erceval's making, his conscience must an-
swer for the mockery. There is an essential difference between
Mr. Irving and Mr. Perceval. The former speaks in an un-
known tongue, the latter in a tongue very well known to certain
classes of whom the least said the better.
We understand that Dr. Russell, of the
Charter-house, has been much annoyed by hii,sicr
eeceo in' i nc
riolseervae-;
rat letters from elderly ladies requesting g
confounding this excellent D.D. with his less celebrated
namesake, Dr. Russell, of cholera celebrity.T.
__,,
Our worthy county member, Nk . Coke, left
[ Holkham, on Sunday, for London, in order to be present at the
' third reading of the Reform Bill, and as he himself forcibly ex-
presses it, to give his last and most important vote in favour of
that measure.—Easf Anglia s.
Orders have been issued from the Horse
t4uards toh nen embartsk large reinforcements from the various depots
q the reg serving
'fi '11) TT in the West Indies. Captain Paschal,
~ A + ison, three sergeants and 190 rank and file, from the
!,7th Depot at Cork, are ordered to embark forthwith in the
'tag at Cove, from Plymouth, to be drafted in the Romney,
Which conveys them to Jamaica.
HENLE
pt' Y-ON-TILA NIES, MARC!! 20.—Several
nted letters, signed by an " Ex.M.p," have been to-day re-
el,ved in this town and neighbourhood,
!..)!Irited county petition to the Kin. against the creation of new
begging names to a
rters, : the lists are requested tob be filled up with as many
Ntnes"as can be procured, and returned to Oxford in time for
their insertion in the County Paper. No open publicity has
been yet given here to this proxy-Tory document, but the
Reformers are all on the qui elite, and alive to the proceedings.
?Inll
,h
numerous admirers of Mr. Horace
s story of Zillah, will be glad to hear that one of the
prwtoent tales of the forthcoming work of that author ;llo-
mune,' of the Early 4ges) will, like Zillah, be connected with
the
fill of magnificent events in Jerusalem, which preceded the down_
the holy city. The tale, wherein these powerful events
arc illustrated, is to be called, we understand, " The 1„,.„1„„_
tart/ Prophet:,
The salary aid
p by this country to the Gover-
nor of Jamaica amounts to about 7,000/. per annum, but the
total e moluments of the Earl of Mulgrave, arising from the
wuncent allowance of the House of Assembly, will, it is
understood, augment his Lordship's revenue to
,0001. per
42.2ntiin. The lion. Captain Charles Beaumont Phi 1
pps, of the
Fusileer Guards, and next brother to the Noble Earl,
Scots
accompany
htl,ie
willnewly-appointed Governor in the capacity
of secretary. T other arrangements respecting his Lordship's
are, it is.understood, incomplete. Lord Mulgrave was
snite,
always distinguished for the liberality of his political opi.
,;a4,, which were opposite to those of his family, who have
be", for generations back, Tories and Placemen. The Earl
f tennore is a Nobleman of high Tory politics ; his Lordship
"kk, sent out to Jamaica in 18%, when the Government of that
Noortant island became vacant by the resignation of the Duke
11 Manchester.