The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-28 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 27.

Mr. WRIGHTSON presented a petition from a con-
gregation of Unitarians in Hull, in favour of the Govern.
ment plan of education in Ireland.—Ordered to be printed.
Colonel EVANS presented a petition from Rochdale,
praying that certain alterations might be made in the Bill
now before the House for the consolidation of the High-
way Acts, with a view of preserving the ancient footways.
He alas) presented a petition from the owners and masters
of fishing vessels belonging to Rye, respecting the mode of
licensing fishing boats. The Hon. and G tllant Officer
then moved for returns, allowing the number of rated
inhabitints of the parish of St James's who had paid
their rates and assessed taxes on or before the 20th July.
Mr. BRISCOE said that the position of a portion of
the electors under the Reform Bill was such, that they
would not be able to avail themselves of the provisions of
the Bill, in consequence of the shortness of time allowed
them to pay up their rates and taxes. He hoped his M
jesty's Government would take the subject into their
consideration with a view to extend the time.—. The mo-
tion was then agreed to.
Mr. STRUTT presented a petition from the town of
Derby for the abolition of Negro Slavery.
Mr. CHAPMAN presented a petition from a parish in
the county of Westmeath, against the Tithe Bill.
Lord SANDON presented a petition, signed by 1,700
merchants, &c. of Liverpool, praying that the rights of
the West India planters might be preserved when the
question of the Abolition of Slavery came under discussion
in the House.

The petition was ordered to be printed.
The Noble Lord moved for a return of the number of
vessels, and the aggregate tonnage, distinguishing British
from foreign, which entered the port of London with
cargoes from foreign ports between the sth July 1831 and
sth July 1832, showing those which had imported corn.
Mr. DIXON presented two petitions from the pro-
prietors of the Glasgow Railway, and from the inhabitants
of Garnkirk, againat a clause in a Bill now before the
House which imposed a tix on steam-carriages.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL thought it exceed-
ingly unjust that a tax was laid upon the common strge
coaches, and not upon coaches of other descriptions. If
no tax were to be impored upon steam carriages, it would
only be fair to take off the tax from the other coaches.
Mr. JEPHSON thought that a fair trial should be al-
lowed the steam-carriages, before a tax was imposed on
them.

Mr. WARBURTON deprecated this tax on an inven-

tion which was quite new, and ought to ree, ive every
encouragement. When they heard of the Americans run-
ning steam from Baltimore to the Ohio, they should do
all they could to keep up in the race with that country.
This would operate almo,,t as •a prohibition against the
use of steam carriages. _ _

Mr. SPRING RICE said, it was by no means intended
that the tax placed on passengers by rail roads should be
equal to that on passengers by stage coaches.
Mr. HUME could not but repeat his objections to taxes
on any species of communication; in his opinion it was
impolitic, and ought not to be continued. The
establishment of rail-roads would not be injurious, he be-
lieved, on the proprietors of stage coaches, as any defi-
ciency would be made good by the cross-road communica-
tions. Even if it were injurious, such was the facility it
would give to communication that it ought not to
be trammelled.—(Hear, heir.) The Honourable Member
thought the Bill ought not to be proceeded with till the
House had been furnished with further information on the
sot:jut. It Lord Altborp thought he could impose dutesi
on rail-roads, he would find himself very much mistaken.
Mr. HODGSON was not one of those who would give
a preference to steam communication at the expense of
horses and stage coaches.

Mr. ROBINSON deprecated any favour being extended
;owards rail-roads.

Mr. DIXON was surprised that the Right lion. Mem-
ber opposite should think of putting horses and stage •
coaches in competition with steam-carriages. He was
firmly persuaded the Noble Lord (Althorp) would never
be permuted by the country to raise a tax on steam-power.
Lord ALTHORP had no wish whatever to put steam
carriages on railroads on the same footing with stage
coaches. If it could be proved to him that the proposed tax
would check steam communication he would never press it.
Mr. HUME said he would undertake to pr.ive that it
would.

nDBI l
10. N presented two petitions from the owners
of bteauk-buats on the Clyde, against the Steam-boat Dia-

Alderman WOOD, in defending the Bill, snid the KO.

Urn the Order of the Day being called on for the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to make his usual financial
statement,
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN rose and entreated the per-
mission of the House to make a few observations, before
the financial statement was entered upon, upon what he
understood to have fallen from a Noble and Learned Lord
elsewhere last night.—(Hear.) That Noble and Learned
Lord, he (Sir Edward Sugden) had no hesitation in
saying, had made use of expressions towards him
which no Gentleman who had a regard for his own per.
sonal honour, or who, if devoid of personal honour, if he
were acting under p rsonsl fear, would have dared to have
used towards another Gentleman in his presence. Those
expressions were so far removed from what one met
with in society,—so far removed from what he could
have supposed would have fallen from the Noble and
Learned Lord, in his exalted situation, and in a place in
which he ought to have set an example of decorum—
expressions so degrading to the person who had used them—
Mr. STANLEY rose to order. He conceived the
course the Hon. Gent, had taken was totally at variance
with the rules of order of that House. If a charge was
made against an Hon. Gentleman of that House respect-
ing his conduct there, no doubt that lion. Gentleman had
a right to defend hiuisell from such an attack ; but if the
House were to be entertained by listening to strong ex-
pressions made use of by an Hon. Member against what
he conceived to have been strong expressions used by a
Noh!e Lord elsewhere, then the mutual respect which was
due to both Houses of Parliament, and the dignity of their
proceedings, must for ever be at an end, particularly
as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had given notice for
another day, on which he meant to enter into the
charges he had now alluded to. He (Mr. Stanley) thought
it would be much better for the Learned Gentleman to
avoid entering upon the subject at present, particularly
in his now excited state of feelings.
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN said he could not understand
the meaning of the interruption he had received from
the Right Honourable Gentleman. He ventured to
say that no one on the part of the party to whom he
alluded, had felt the slightest regret at the language that
was used against him in another place.—(Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER believed the Hon. and Learned Gen•
tleman was out of order, and that what the Right Hon.
Gentleman had mentioned as the rule of the House,
was undoubtedly that which the House ought to attend to.
If the Right Hon. Gentleman had intended to comment
on what he understood to he imputations which some men
might conceive to be applicable to the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman, but which he could not show
were applicable to him, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had undoubtedly a right make such a representation.
Sir E. SUGDEN was always obedient to the orders
of the House, but since he had been in that House
he had never heard an attempt made on the

part of any one to prevent an offended Member, when
that Member belonged to the party to whom he now
alluded, from defending himself.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") That right bad now been denied to him.—
He had been deeply offended. It was utterly impossible for
any Gentleman to offend another more than he had been
on the present occasion ; and yet by tie inter.
position of the Right Honourable Gentleman he had
been prevented from doing justice to himself.—(Hear.)
He (Sir Edward Sugden) had never used language towards
that Noble and Learned Lord which he might not have
heard with every possible composure. The Noble Lord
presided in the very Court in which he (Sir E.) practised.
In that situation he was entitled to demand respect from
him; but from henceforth he should respect the office, not
the person, and would always have to feel that he was ad-
dressing a man in that Court who had forgotten to act
as a gentleman or as a man. He deeply felt that in his
absence words should have been levelled at him such as bad
been used—his conduct had not railed for it. He was
a very humble person, but the language that had been
used was painful to one's feelings, diskireeable to one's
children, occasioned sorrow to one's fri,nds, and he for
once, and for ever, declared that he bad lost all personal
respect for the man from whom such language could have
proceeded.

Mr. STANLEY begged to be allowed to set himself
right with the House. He really had no wish to prevent
explanation. But there was a personal charge made
against the Lord Chancellor—an injurious and disgraceful
charge, if true ; and, if not true, why then he would say
that it was such a charge as ought not to be made without
the fullest and fairest deliberation.—(Hear, hear.) After
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had given notice of a
motion on the subject, the Lord Chancellor in the other
House took the opportunity of vindicating himself, and
proved to the satisfaction of every one present that the
charge was without the slightest foundation.—(Cries of
" No, no," from the Opposition benches.) lie (Mr.
Stanley) believed that the Noble and Learned Lord had
succeeded in satisfying ninety-nine persons out of a
hundred that the charge was unfounded. The Lord
Chancellor, therefore, had proceeded upon very different
grounds, when he introduced the subject, from those now
proceed,cl
upon by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
The Lord Chancellor's observations were in reference to a

direct charge against him ; but the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had not mentioned that any charge had been
made against him, and had not even specified the
language that had been applied to him.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL.—Sir, I have read the expressions re-
ferred to by my Hun. and Learned Friend with sentiments
of the greatest pain.
11,1 r. STANLEY—Are they correct?
Sir E. PEEL-1 have beard no imputation upon them.
(Several Hon. Members, " Order, order.)
Sir R. PEEL—I may be put down by reference to
technicalities, but I feel that this is a suhj ct of deep im-
portance, not only to my Learned Friend, who, I think, has
shown a
proper sense of what is due to himself in the
notice he has taken of these expressions, but to the pri
vileges of this House.—(Cheers.) When this subject was
mentioned the other day, I stated that having heard the
Noble Lord's evidence given in Committee with respect to it,
WAR "i/ACCI that the apptgaiintilt which he had 1174titi was

only provisional, and that he meant to abolish the office in
question ; but still I heard nothing in the speech of
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman rshith was
at all inconsistent with the performance of his public
duties as a Member of this Hou.e.—(Cle era.) Two
offices, notorious sinecures, fell vacant, and they were
filled up. Whit was more natural than that soy
Ifanourahle Member of this House should make
an inquiry upon the subject ?—(Cheers.) In former
times an hour would not have passed without a question
being put to the Government on such a subject. I spoke
twice in the course of the evenini, and stated my opinion
to be, that further discussion was then premature, but that
I had no doubt the appointments were provisional.
Answers having been given to the question of my Ho-
nourable and Learned Friend, a Noble Lord in another
place, at the head of the profession to which
my Honourable and Learned Friend helongs,—(Cheers)—
the Chief Judge of the kingdom, the Peer who presides in
the other branch of the legislature, describes a Member
of this House of Parliament in terms which would
effectually deter many individuals shrinking from abuse--
shrinking from the castigation of the Noble Lord—
shrinking from the sarcasm his command of
language gave him power to inflict—shrinking from
the ruin which such an attack might bring upon a
professional man—would, I say, deter many from
performing their duty in this House.—(Cheers.) Sir, my
respect for that Noble Lord, my admiration of his talents,
will prevent me quoting the opprobrious expressions which
he is said to have used, but when he describes a Member
of this House as a crawling reptile, as an insect, in
the most offensive terms, the House may judge
what his language must have been. I agree in the in-
convenience of referring to the proceedings of the other
House ; but if a gentleman is to be attacked in
such terms in the other House, he must either
submit to the opprobrium cast upon him, or endeavour
to cast it off —(Hear, hear, hear.) I deeply regret,
from the feelings I have always entertained towards
that Noble Lord, that he should so far have forgotten
himself as to attack a Member of this House in terms
so offensive, and I will say so undeservedly offensive, as
those the Noble Lord is said to have used with
respect to my Honourable and Learned Friend.--
The Right Hon. G-ntleman seems to cast a doubt upon
the correctness of this report, but the one I refer to is
in the Times, and certainly if we may judge
of the correctness of a report by its elaborateness, this
bears upon it the marks of being correct ; but I shall be
clad to hear that it is not so.
Lord ALTHORP be2ged to say that his Noble Friend
had told him this morning the report in the Times and
another paper was most incorrect. In what respect it
was incorrect his Noble Friend did not say, and
as he (Lord Althorp) di .t not hear his Noble
Friend, he could not say whether the complaint of incor-
rectness applied to the sentiments or expressions.
—(Hear, bear, hear.) He deprecated, however,
bandying backwards and for wards from one House
to the other strong expressions, most unbecoming
the dignity of either House, and the convenience
of their proceedings.—(Hear, hear ) He would only
add, that no objection having been taken to those ex.
pressiuns in the other House of Parliament at the
time, was a fact which might lead to the presumption
that the report was exageerated.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said he was quite willing to be-
lieve, and hoped, that such was the case—that the
report in the public papers was incorrect; but the brat
proof of that would be, for the Noble Lord to take the
earliest opportunity of contradicting it in his pltice, since
he had not, whicl4e should have thought the first neces-
sary step, assusgthe victim that he had not used the
calumnious expressions attributed to him.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that he was not
in the House when this matter was first brought
before it for the third time.—(Hear, hear.) He was
quite aware the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated
that he felt convinced it was but a provisional appoint-
ment, but he would put it to the candour of the House,
and the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether it was a fair
interpretation of what the Lord Chancellor actually in-
tended to do. Facts clearly showed the contrary. The
question had been put without notice to any one, and in a
manner calculated to convey unfavourable impressions
with respect to the Chancellor. He thought, therefore,
his Noble Friend had a right to complain of the course
adopted, and he was not at all surprised that
he should feel considerable resentment at what had been
stated in the absence of any person who could have given
explanation on the subject.—(Hear.) As to expressions
made use of in newspapers, as those of Members of either ,
House, no one was called on to vindicate or deny
them. With respect to the expressions inverted in the

newspaper in question, it was quite impossible they
could have been used. The expressions used by the Hon.
Member for St. Mawes were totally uncalled for, espe-
cially at a time when the Lord Chancellor had been most
actively conferring benefits on the public, by the abolition
of sinecures ; and the fact of toe lucrative office coming into
his gift had not at all altered his determination in that re-
spect. The Hon. Member for Ripon had seen the Lord
Chancellor immediately after the falling-in of this office,
to whom the Lord Cuanceflor had expressed his determi-
nation not to make any alterations in the Bills, the first
line of which went to the abolition of that office. Was
it not hard theta*, ire that the Lord Chancellor should
have been represented as having put his brother into office
for the sake of getting compensation ?—(Hear, hear )
He trusted that the subject would not be proceeded with
further, as in his opinion the House would be uselessly
employed in doing so.

PEEL could not conceive by what right the
Hon. and Learned Member could put a construction upr•n
a question which he was not present to bear. At the
time the question WAS put he (Sir R. Peel) had stated it
as his conviction that the appointment was only provi•
sional, He had said further that the Lord Chancellor
ought not to lose from the abolition of his office, but that
he ought to have ample compensation.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL had formed his judg-
ment from what be had seen in the papers, and he cer-
tainly thought an imputation was conveyed that a vested
interest was created fur the purpose of obtaining compen-
sation for its abolition.

Sir R. INGLIS considered that if such attacks were to
be permitted as had been made upon the Hon. and
Learned Member for St. Mawes, there was an end of the
independence of that House. It was true that the Hon.
Member for St. Mawes's professional eminence could
not be injured by such observations, but he considered the
expressions used were such as no gentleman was entitled
to apply to any Member of that House, and that it was
necessary, therefore, that the character of the House, and
the privilege of its Members, together with its independ-
ence, should be vindicated. The Noble and Learned Lord
hid stated, through Lord Althorp and the S.'cretary for
Ireland, that there was great incorrectness in the report It
such was the case, in his (Sir R. Inglis's) opinion, the
course for the Noble Lord to pursue was, to bring the per-
son who had put such words into his mouth, to the Bar.
If the Noble Lord did not pursue such a course, or did no,
in his place correct the statement, the Honourable
and Learned Member for Sr. Mawes was fully entitled,
in vindication of himself and of the independence of a.-
House, to complain of such a violation of its privileges.
Mr. MACAULA Y said that the complaint here rested
upon words, and it was well known that reports in
newspapers did not generally contain the actual
words u hich were made use of by Honourable Members.
With respect to the question put by the Member fur St.

. _
Mawes, Lord Eldon had expressed himself hurt at the
observation ; and that Noble Lord was in some measure to
be considered as the leader of the party to which the
Honourable Member belonged. He (Mr. ;Vannley)
considered it a most unjust attack on the Lord
Chancellor, made in a must uncourteous manner.__
(Hear, hear.) An imputation had been thrown upon
him by it, which, if true, would e.mount to a dishonest
act; and it must be remembered that that imputation was
made at a time when the Lord Chancellor was in the act
of making great sacrifices to the public.—(Hear hear.)
It Was not therefore at all surprising that the
Lord Chancellor should express himself rather angrily
upon the subject. In his (Mr. M s.) opinion, if any person
wits to blame, it was the Hon. and Learned Member for
St. ?Hawes, who had most certainly made the first attack.
—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Sir C. WETHERELL observed, that nothing had
been done by the Hon. Member for St. Mawes. that

could be considered at all in the light of a provocation,
for it had been the constant usage of Diem: err of Par-
liament to ask questions relative to the filling up of tier-
tan offices. It could oat, thereforiii, in his opinion, be sail

by the Lord Chancellor, or any other man, :that the put-
sg Audi qutitioa called 1r opy

Mr. W. BROUGHAM it lid that perhaps the Hone
and Learned Gentleman would allow him to state what
Ole Lord Chancellor did say.—(Hear, hear.) He expressly
said that it was necessary to fill up certain offi, es, in
order that the duties might not be left undischargi d, and
he had placed his brother in them, having in him the full-
est reliance that he would throw no obstacle in the way
of their abolition, and that from that individual net one
word would be heard upon the subject of vested
(Cheers.)
Sir C. WETHERELL said he was present when the
Noble and Learned Lord had spnkeu on this part of the
subject, though he was not present when he opened his
vocabulary against his Hon. and Learned Friend, and he
had heard nothing Oil the 'subject of vented right., and it
appeared the most accurate of the• ieperters .lnu had not
heard a word on the subject. He a-ao willing tar de
iustice to the Noble and Learned Lord ; but what he bad
heard that Noble Lord say was, that his brother being tin-
der his control. be could direct him to do what he thought
fit. Ile had, however, iu another psrt of his speech, said
that be hail a risht to fill those offiees op. Then in that
case he should have withdrawn his other statement.—
(Cries of " No, no.") They were uteely inc. ns stew.—
(No, no He would say, "Yes." The Noble Lord was here
claiiiiiar the offices, with, all their rights and emits-
irtents....4 proposition which he (Sir C. Wetherell) would
not for a moment dispute, for there could lie no question
but that he had the right, dejure and de facto to fill up
those offices; but then, if the Noble and Learned Lord
persevered in this, he battered down his `'roue ereument.
The Hon. Member !night shake his Lead, but be should
not shake him (Sir C. Wetherell) from his argument.-
-(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Nohle and Learned
Lord did not say that his brother was bound to give up
the offices without compensation.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not say so. He had only said he had appointed his bro-
ther because he had sufficient control over him to induce
hm to act as he thought fit. If the House of Lords
permitted the language complained of to be used, the con-
sequence would he the destruction of the privileges of the
House of Commons—for such language was not only cal-
culated to demolish any one less distinguished in his pro.
ussi,m than his Hon. Friend, but was also calculated to
lemolish him as a Member of that House —(Hear, bear.)
In this way, if such language were permitted, the inde-
pendence of the House might be destroyed.
Mr. ROBINSON said that, on the former occasion
when this matter was before the House, he had made no
remark on the discussion, until it had proceeded to such
leneth that the colleagues of the Noble and Learned Lord
had declined to give an answer to the question, alleging,
'hey were ignorant of the appointments actuallj being
ide. He appealed to the House, whether he was not
teen justified in putting his veto against any claim of vested
rights?—(Hear, hear.) When a question of this impor-
tance was brought forward, after notice having been given,
is was stated, and relative to a csse so very peculiar,
ely no Hon. Member would say, the Hon. and Learned
aismtier had no right to put the question.—(Hear, hear.)
Whatever inconvenience might arise from such discussions
—and he felt their inconvenience as much as any one—he
'oust say, the whole had arisen out of thelineof conduct par-
lied by the Noble and Learned Lord in another place,where,
lot content with vindicating Lis own conduct, he threw
;int imputations in a manner so peculiarly offensive, that
sinless the House was willing to surrender its privileges at
once to the Lord Chancellor, whose character and talents
tet held in the greatest estimation, it was high time the
question should be taken up. and he was therefore glad of
'he notice which had been taken of it that night.—(Heir,
f• opt the Opposition belches.) In order to prevent a re-
petition M such proceedings in another place, he was glad
iif what had already taken place, lest it might be necessary
to call for a more serious notice than had yet been given to
the subject —(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RIDLEY COLBORNE was present when the
Noble and Learned Lord spoke on the previous evening,
etd he had beard him say what had been attributed to him
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Wm.
itrougham). There was another remark male by the
Noble and Learned Lord also, which, as it was not
eaticed in any of the Papers, he would repeat. He
lid it was next to impossible that his brother should
nett suffer by the appointment, it was so soon to be abo-
lished, and the fees on accepting it were so great.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL should not have taken part
the present discussion if the Hen. and Learned Gsn-
,leman (Sir C. Wetherell) had not attacked the substance
of the defence made by the Lord Chancellor. The
herd Chancellor had declared, that this office ought to be
abolished, and had a Bill prepared for that purpose, and
though he had given that office to his brother, the Bill
ein iined unaltered ; and there was a distinct un-
derstanding that his brother should claim no com-
pensation, when it should he abolished, on the score of
ousted rights. If this wits not a complete defence to the
charge against the Lord Chancellor, be (Lord John Rus-
sell) knew not what sort of statement could amount to a
defence. There could be no doubt whatever hut the Lord
Chancellor claimed his right to fill tho‘e offices when
tie appointment to them became a matter of public
necessity, but that was not at ull incensistent with his
ssying that they should be abolished without compensation
to the persons he appointed to them. With respect lo the
inguage which had been complained of, be would just ob-
serve that the Hon. Member for Worcester, and the Hen.
Ind Learned Member for Boroughbridge, had acted un-
fairly in stating that Ministers complained of the Hon.
and Learned Member for St. Melees for having asked the
questiiin as to the filling up of the office. They did not
somplain of any such thing.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
and Learned Member had a right to ask the question, and
r.iic Hon. Member for Worcester had also a right to speak
a• he had done, although he, perhaps, exceeded a little in
üblic jealousy.—(Hear, hear.) It was a practice in
rebqi tidh e
he
ntly (iLtiodrd ulgje'd Russell)
1e ina ntdh eh his Hon.
ni;bulrinds
but they,
saving served a long apprenticeship to it, knew how to
put their questions in a more simple form than those Hon.
Members had done.—(Hear, anal much laughter.) Th-
e d his Noble Friend near him felt a good deal of diffi-
sulty in endeavouring to pick the question out from the
mass of phi ippic with which it was surrounded. He
tb ught that the whole of this disagreeable subject might
nave been avoided it the Hon. Member for St. Mawes had
to.,eu content to put hie question in a different manner.
Sir H. HARDINGhi said it would seem that the No-
ble Loid, from the lecture he had read to tee House,
would wish to prevent any Hon. Gentleman from putting
q i?stions.—(Hesr, bear, from the Opposneun Benchet.)
his Hon. and Learned Friend could have taken no other
eiiiirse than that which lie had adopted, after a Noble and
Learned Lord, in another piece, hail indulged in language
the most indecorous and op proerious against hi in. --
Cheers.) The Learned Gcntlem in, the Attorney-Gene-
;sl, had complained of his Hon. and Learned Friend that
eve had given no notice of the question he intended to put;
,tit he would Ask whether it was new to the litmus • that
questions should be put in that way ? He contended hat
seder tee Adminiseatioti tvitb welch he himself 'Lad tiesn
seenected, questions were usice,i witunu .14,fte- lug
;von. There appeared to have tic; a greet tied ni al-
, tel d licacv in certain (patters respecting a ,laries. The
•I. std Privy Seal had said that he would take no salary,
if did is the Noble Nstamtattr.General. That

. Noble Personage said, even were he disposed to accept a
salary, yet be could not bring himself to do so when he
considered the wretched state of the peasantry about the
neighbourhood where he resided. All that his Hon. and
Learned Friend the Member for St. Mawes had done was
to put a question, whether it was the intention of his Ma-
jesty's Government to abolish sinecure offices? He had a
just right to complain that no answer was returned to that
question. He (Sir H. Hardinge) protested against the
tone adopted in another place against Members of this
House. Not only had the Noble and Learned Lord who
held the highest judicial office in the country spoken
against his Hon. and Learned Friend in the most re-
prehensible manner, but another Noble and Learned
Lord, following his example, described the Hen. Member
for Dundalk as odious to his constituents. New be would
put it to the House whether that was a proper course to
pursue ? Was it not a direct attack on the rights and
privileges of the House? Here they found a Noble and
Learned Lord, of the very first station, for whose great
talents he (Sir Henry Hardinge) entertained the highest
respect, pursuing a course altogether at variance with his
rank and official character, while, at the same time, another
Noble and Learned Lord was induced to follow him.
This system, if continued, would tend to put an end to the
whole freedom of debate. He (Sir H. Hardinge) was
quite sure that if his Noble Friend the Duke of Welling.
ton had been :ware of the manner in which the question
was put by his Hon. and Learned Friend, and had
heard t'ae epithets which the Noble and Learned Lord
had raeade use of against him, he would never have suf-
fered them to pans unreproved. He declared there was
nothing whatever in the whole coure of the transaction,
as regarded his Hon. and Learned Friend. that justiff d
the language which the Noble and Learned Lord had made
use of against
Mr. R. PALMER deprecated the continuance of this dis-
eueainn to so unreasonable an hour, when public business
remained to he transacted. If language of the descripti n
stated to have been used in another place had actually been
used, every P:11/1 in that House and the country must
regret it—(Hear)—but the House ought to hear in mind
that reports were frequently garbled and in .ceurate. In-
deed he bad been told that the Noble and Learned Lord
'himself had found fault with the report, and he hoped his
Lordship would take the earliest opportunity of stating
the fact.
Mr. R. GORDON contended that neither of the Nolde
persons alluded to by the Hon. and Gallant Member (Sir
H. Hardinge)—namely, the Dike of Richmond and Lord
Durham—had had any wish to accept salaries ; but they
were requested to do so, in consequence of the duties they
had to perform.
Mr. C. P THOMSON said that his Noble Friend,
Lord Durham, who was at present not in this country, was
most anxious to decl ne the salary attached to his office ;
but he was told it was expedient for the public service
that he should take it.
Mr. C. PELHAM gave notice that he should call the
attention of the House to the subject on Monday next.
The discussion then dropp d.
THE BUDGET.
The House went into Committee.
Lord ALTHORP—I rise, Sir, to lay before the House,
that financial statement which it is my duty to bring under
the consideration of Parliament. lam quite aware that
the circumstances under which I present myself are such,
that I cannot come forward with any sanguine views of
the future, or gratulatory recapitulation of the past. lam
quite aware that my statement must be one which a Chan.
cellor of the Exchequer has been unaccustomed tortnake of
late years ; and, therefore, I have to throw myself on the
indulgence of the House. --(Hear, hear.) Under these
circumstances. I am conscious that there is only one course
which I ought to pursue, or which I can pursue, and
that is, to detail fairly and plainly what the state of the
case is with respect to the revenues of the country, not en-
deavnuring by either disguise or concealment to deceive
the House or the country on any one item connected with
that revenue.—( Hear, hear.) This, lam sure, is the
best mode for me to adopt—the only justifiable mode for
any Chancellor of the Exchequer. Now, Sir, the view
which I have to present to the House of our finances must
apply, in the first instance, to what is past, before I enter
into the question of what I think likely to be the prospect
for the present year. In consequence of the change that
bas taken place in the reckoning of our financial year, it
will be necessary, when referring to what is past, to take
the year as ending on the sth of January; but when I
come to the consid-ration of the prospect for the present
year, in order to make a fair comparison, it will he most
proper for me to take the year as terminating on the sth
of April. With these preliminary observations, I shall
now immediately proceed to the statement which I have
to make. Sir, I will begin by stating the circumstances
of the revenue during the year 1830, and then proceed to
compare those circumstances with the circumstances of
the present year. The national income of the year 1830
(ending sth January, 1831), was 50,056,6161., and
the expenditure was 47,142 9431., leaving a surplus of
2,913,6731. The expenditure of 1831 was within
1-9,6461. the same as that of 1830 ; that is to say, the
expenditure of 1831 was 47,123,2971. This similarity
of amount does not arise from the equality of the votes of
the two years (for the votes of 1831 exceeded those of
1830), but is owing to there being a saving in 1831 from
the reduction of the Four and a Half per Cents. to the
amount of 777,433/. To account for the increased ex-
penditure, I ought to state, that there is an increase
in the Army Estimates of 225,130/., on the Navy
Estimates of 280.2521., and on the Miscellaneous
Estimates of 238,0081. This gives an apparent in-
crease of 743,3901. ; but from this we have to deduct
a part of the charge on the Civil List, which has been
transferred to the amount of 322,611/., and then we shall
have a remaining excess of 420.779/. In the Ordnance
Estimates there is a decrease of 149,374/. From the Un-
claimed Dividends a sum of 127,400/. All these sums
together leave for an excess in the votes of the House dur-
ing that year 757,7971., which makes a difference, as I
have already stated, of 19,646/. The net income of 1830
was 50,056,6161., and the net income of 1831 was
46 424,440/. ; leaving a deficiency for the year 1831 of
3;632,1761. This diminution has taken place principally
in items of the customs and excise, there being a deficiency
in the customs of 1,025,0521., and in the excise of
2,340.360/. ; there has also 6-en a decrease in the stamps
of 110 292/., and on the general taxes, owing to a delay
in their collection, of 149,062/. ; in addition to which
there is a deficiency in the miscellaneous, to the amount
of 113,030/., owing to the payment on account of the
Four per Cents., and of the hereditary revenues in Scot.
land, these three items together making a deficiency of
372,3841., or, taken in conjunction with the deficiencies
in the customs and excise, of 3,737,7261. On the other
band, there has been an increase in the past office of 64,194/.
and on the unpaid dividends of 11,426/. These items refer
to the year ending the sth of January. The House is aware,
as I have already stated, that the expenditure of
1831 amounted to 47.123,297/., and the income to
46 424 440/. ; consequently there was a defici. ncy
698,857/. I have already shown that the diminution of
the income of the year was 3,632,176/. ; and we now
see that the deficiency to meet the expenditure was
698.857/. Of course, we must deduct the amount of
the surplus, in order to show the deficiency of the year ;
and it therefore appears that the state of the revenue at
the commencement of 1832 was, instead of having a sur-
plus of 2,973,000/. as in 1831, a deficiency to the amount
of abut 700,000/. It is right, however, that lf shouls
remark, that this result arose not at all from any falling off
in the consumption of taxable articles, but from a dimi
nution in the amount of the taxes. A large reduction
was made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, my predecessor.
in 1830. a considerable portion of which came into the
Income of 1831 ; and I myself also made large reductions
—reductions which, together, have turned out larger than
the income of the country could afford. The reduction in
the Custom+ on Coals and Slates has been about 900,000/.,
on Barilla 90,000/, and on Sugar and Molasses 300.0001. ;
besides which, there has been a deficiency in the Corn
Duties of about 200,000/. ; making altogether a deficiency
of 1,485,0001., which, however, has nothing to do with
the consumption of the people. In the Excise, the reduc-
tions have been Lain greater ; the reduction in the Bret
Tax amounts to 2,350,000/., on Leather to 200,0001.,
on Cider to 50,000/., and on Printed Calicoes (including
the drawback) to 675,000/ ; besides which, there has
been a diminution in the Candle Dnty to the amount of
20,000/., chiefly arising from an expectation having been
formed that some reduction in that duty would take place.
Altogether, these reductions amount to 3,295,000/.,
which, added to the Customs, make the reduc-
tion, as compared with the former year, 1,414,5881. But
the deficiency of the revenue, as I have already stated, is
3,632,176/. ; and, therefore, the statement that I have
just made proves that there has been a considerable in-
crease in the consumption of other taxable articles during
the year. I think this circumstance must prove satisfac
tory to the House. Far myself, I have, perhaps, been ter,
sanguine, for I certainly did expect a greater increase of
consumption ; but, at all events, it is gratifying to find
that so large an increase has actually taken place. It is
now my duty to state, that the deficiency which existed
at the end of the year was considerably augmented at
the end of the April quarter ; the reason of this is, that
a large portion of the estimates voted in the preceding
year came to be expended during the first quarter of the
year 1832, and, consequently, the estimates that had re-
ference to the first quarter were not diminished in thtir
amount. It is owing to this circumstance that the deli

ciency on the sth of April amounted to 1,240,000/. This
certainly is a large deficiency of income, and ought, I
admit, to be regarded with general regret. The mode in
which the Government has endeavoured to meet this defi-
ciency has not been by the proposal of any new taxes;
but we have tried to the very utmost to make reductions
in the estimates of the year ; these reductions, however,
could not take effect previous to the month of April, and
therefore as yet they have not been brought to bear upon
the deficiency I have just stated. We have reduced tl e
Estimates, as the House is aware, to an amount altogether
not less than upwards of two millions. We have also
looked to reduction, as far as we could, in the amount of
the expenses of the different public offices. With respect
to the late Administration, I must do them the justice to
say that they acted with great vigour in this way. On re-
ferring to their labours, I find that in 1828, the first year
of the Duke of Wellington'. Administration, the reductions
effected amounted to 188 941/. ; in 1829 they were
12,019/ ; in 1830 they were 109,1291. ; making toge-
ther 340,0891. This certainly was a large reduction, and
of course rendered it the more difficult for us to continue
and extend these diminutions. The reductions, however,
which we were able to make during the first year that
we were in office amounted to 231,353/. ; and during
the present year, I think that I am below the mark, wl.en
I state that they will amount to 100,000/. I therefore
think that we have a fair claim to say that we have ex-
erted ourselves to some effect as far as we have gone, and
I trust that we shall find ourselves able to go on in the
same course.--(Hear, hear.) This, I aiipreheuil, is the
only mode in which the deficiency ought to be made
up; hut I am prepared to say, that if it appears that
we cannot make reductions sufficient to meet the income
of the country, it will be absolutely necessary to ap-
peal to Parliament to strengthen the resources of
the country for the payment of its expenditure;
and I am perfectly satisfied that after I shall have proved
that the reduction of the expenditure has been carried as
far as is consistent with the safety, interests, and
honour of the country, I shall not fail to receive
the support of the Parliament, even if it shou d be
toy misfortune to hive to propose such a measure.—( Hear.)
I am sure, that when the House comes to look at the
whole of the revenue and expenditure of the country, they
would see that the d. ficiency was not of an amount upon
'he last two years, taking them together, that need excite
any degree of alarm. I shall now proceed to compare the
revenue of t,,e. country from April to April, bringing the
statement down to the April of the present year. The
interest and expenses of the public dent will amount to
27,826,000/. ; the interest on Exchequer bills to 662,984/ ;
'l'e other charges on the man tgeinent of the Consolidated
Fund will amount to 1 741.000/. ; the cost of maintaining
She Army to 7.876.000/. ; the Navy to 5,842,835/. ; the
Ordnance to 1,478,0001. the Mi-cellaneous to 2,930,000/.,
the total being 47,858,4271. The iutereet of the debt
then remaining the same as before, there would be but a
difference of 3 000/. in the payment upon Exchequer Bills.
The whole interest both upon the funded debt and the
Exchequer Bills, the House will observe, amounts to
28,365,000/., and the other charges upon the management
of the debt to 1,971,0001., waking, as I have said before,
the expenditure of the last year amount to 47,858,4271.
(Hear, hear,) The estimates for the present year altoge-
her amounted to 45,696 376/. This, I beg to say,
is an amount less by 2,000,000/. than the estimates
of last year. I have yet to state the probable produce
of taxes and other sources of revenue, and to lay be-
fore the House the means generally by which his
Majesty's Government propose to meet the expenses of the
current year, and this statement I shall endeavour to make
as clearly and as accurately as I can ; and in looking to
the fu'ure, I hope I shall succeed in laying before the [louse
matters as they actually are ; and I can sincerely assure
them that I have no wish to do otherwise than to en-
deavour to render a strict account of the financial condition
of the country. I shall begin this part of the subject by
stating that the Customs' dories fur the year ending the
sth of April last, produced a revenue of 16,275,0001. I
expect that in the year ending the sth of April, 1833, the
duty on imported cotton will cause an increase amounting
to 260,000/. ; that the saving from the discontinuance of
the linen bounties will amount to 100,0001. I also expect
a considerable increase of revenue from the duty on tobacco.
The duty on this articie has gone on regularly increasing
for a long time past; in the year 1830 it was
4,858,000/., in 1831, it amounted to 2 910,0001.,
and in the year 1832 it rose to 2,995 000/. I think I
am justified in expecting in the present year an increased
revenue from tobacco that will yield 35,0001., and I think
the House will agree with me that I are also warranted in
anticipating from the wine duties an equal amount; true
it is that in the last year there was no increase, but that is
easily accounted for by the circumstance, that people,
being aware that a change was about to be effected in the
scale of duties, availed themselves of the long notice to lay
in large stocks, and therefore I think I have a full right to
expect that in the course of the ensuing year there will he
an increase, and I think it will he admitted that I am not
going too far in stating that increase at 33,000/. Taking
then 260,000/. for cotton and 70,0001. for the other two,

may calculate that we shall have in the customs a total
increase of 430,000!. ; let that be added to 16,275,000!.,
gives the whole amount of customs at 16,705,000!. We
must, however, deduct from that a sum of 500,000/.
being the amount of duties received upon corn, which I
hope we shall hear nothing of this year, the prospect
from the harvest being so good, that I trust we shall this
,eason have no necessity for any importation of foreign
corn. For this reason, then, I feel bound to make from
this sum a deduction of the 500,0001. I have further
in this place to observe, that we must make a re-
duction of 100,000/. more on account of the diminu-

tions in the new scale of duties contained in the
schedule to the Customs Duties' Bill ; and there must also
he a deduction of 80,0001. on account of Sugar Duties.
We shall then have a total of 830,000/. ; which being de-
ducted from the gross sum of 16,705 000/., leaves a re•
or-minder of 15 871,000/. I think then, as far as I can
judge, that no one will say I have exaggerated in any of
these cases, and that it will turn out that I have been
perfectly justified in the anticipations in which I have in-
dulged. lam perfectly ready to admit that the income
,f the country has not, during the last two years, at all
come up to what might have been the expectations formed
,if it two or three years ago ; but I have no difficulty in
saying, that it will appear th it two of the causes which
have kept down the amount of the revenue are causes that
will no longer continue. Tne two causes to which I
'nude are the political excitement which has for some time
past prevailed throughout the country ; and the other,
though ore to which I never attached much importance,
yet it did materially affect the Customs—l mean the pre-
valence of cholera. lam sorry to say that that cau-e
still continues, but we have every reason to hope that its
operation will not be of long duration. The third cause
to which I attach the most importance, as having tended
to depress the revenue, is the state of the currency. It is
well known that during the past year the currency has
been gradually contracting—that throughout the whole
_ .

of that period-the exchanges hive been decidedly against
this country, and that has, of course, produced a consi-
derable stagnation of trade; but, fortunately, it is a cause
which no longer exists, and is not likely in future to ope-
ate. The exchanges are now in favour of this country,
tnd tl,us that which I considered tl e principal catiAe of

.it dine may now be con..ideled at an t-nd. Having said so
touch about the state of the Custotw, I now come to the

object of the Excise. In the year ending the sth of Apri,
last, the Excise amounted to 16,516,632/. I think I may
calculate that the increase of the Matt Duty will this year
mount to 220,0001.—that the Duty on Hops will be
56,0001.—that the drawback upon Printed Cottons may
he estimated at 165,0001.—an i that several minor mat-
ters will, taken together, yield 150,0001. From the total
~f these items, we must make some deduction ; for instead
of our having, as was calculated, an addition of 600,000/. in
the Spirit Duties, there has been a tailing off in these to the
extent of 191,0001. Not that I believe the consumption of
spirits has materially diminished within the time, but there
has been only a small stock kept on hand, and I have no

loubt that there will speedily he such an increase as to mak,

good any temporary deficiency that may exist ; tbereforel
think we may assign some portion of the 150,000/. to
the increase that may reasonably be anticipated in the

.pirit duties. Then, if we allow for the improvement
that may be expected from the increased income arising
from auctiims, licenses, paper, soap, starch, and vinTar,
we shall obtain a total of 204,6001. ; but taking these at

only 150,0001., it will not be said that I am sanguine in
fixing the malt and hop duties, and others that 1 have
mentioned, at 631,000/., which would give for the Excise a
total of 17.207,632/. I am aware from this we must

make a deduction of 350,000/. for the repealed duty on
candles, which will leave the net sum 16,857,632/. As
to stamps and assessed taxes, they remain the same as last
year. Then, as I have before stited, we have the customs
15,807,000/. ; excise, 16,857,632/. ; the stamps upwards
of seven millions, with the assessed taxes and the miscel-

ianeous sources of revenue the same as before, yielding a
total of 46,470,000/. The estimates for the current year,
with the expenses of the consolidated fund, amount to
45,695,3761., and the surplus arising from the year ending
the sth of April, 1833, to 773,6241. This of course will
he set against the deficiency of the year 1832,
which will reduce the deficit upon the two years
to 466,7891. Honourable Members, I trust, will do
me the justice to admit that I have endeavoured to stite
the prospects of the country as low as I possibly could.
For the year now going on, the revenue, as compared with

the estimates, ought to yield a surplus of 770,000/. I
believe I have now stated, at least as far as my recollec-
tion serves me, I have stated all that is necessary in this
the first opportunity I could have had in the present Ses-
sion of laying herore the House the views of his Majesty's
Government respecting the income and expenditure of the
country ; and I do not think it is at all necessary for me to
occupy the attention of the House any further, reserving
to myself the privilege of giving hereafter any explanation
that may be required. I have now to state, in conclusion,
that after the most deliberate consideration of the subject,
his Majesty's Government have arrived at the determina-
tion of proposing the renewal of the Sugar Duties. Filling
the situation which I do, I am, of course, called upon to
move such renewal. My intention in rising was certainly
to conclude with this motion ; but I thought, and I am
sure the House will concur with me, that I ought not to
have made any such proposition without entering into a
full financial explanation. If there were room for a re-
duction of those duties, there is no one who would feel
greater pleasure than I should in proposing such a r, duetion.
I have not lost sight of the fact that we have been told, that
with a falling revenue we ought to endeavour to reviveit by
encouraging an increased consumption through the means
of diminished duties; and it is further urged that, with
the prospect of a deficiency, it was not of much import-
ance whether that deficiency was a little more or a little
less. I confess I cannot understand the force of this rea-
soning ; but, with respect to the fact, I may take leave to
observe, that we have no ground for anticipating a defi-
ciency in the revenue, and surely, will any prospect of a
surplus, we should not he forward to relinquish any
source of Revenue. In a word, I think the House will
agree with me, that the argument to which I am now re-
ferring does not apply to the present state of things. I
regret to soy, that in the situation in which I stand I
find myself called upon to move the renewal of these
duties without any reduction whatever; and it only now
remains fur me to put a resolution with that view into
your hands..—(Hear.; The Noble Lord then moved a
resolution, declaring that it was the opinion of that Corn-
inittee, that the several duties hitherto levied on sugar
and molaeses. he continued till the sth of April, 1833.
Mr. GOULBURN said that it being now admitted that
there e as a deficiency in the revenue—
Lord ALTHORP b gged to correct the Right Hon.
Gentleman; there was not any deficiency anticipated in
the present year; on the contrafy, he expected a surplus
of 770,000/.
Mr. GOULBURN resumed—There might be a surplus
on the present, but so great was the deficiency on t e pre-
ceding year, that he expected 770,000/. was not sufficient
to counterbalance it by a sum of 460,000/. ; therefore,
upon the last nine quarters there was an aeetral deficiency
that could not be denied. The Noble Lord, he had no
doubt, would recollect that upon the first occasion lie
made a financial statement to the House, he (Mr. Goul-
burn) warned him against the system which lie then fol-
lowed, and he regretted that that warning had been thrown
away. He thought then, as now, that the affairs of a
country could not be well managed when the revenue pre-
sented such a picture. There could be no doubt that now,
in a time of peace, and at a period of that peace when it
peeuli irly behoved this country to assume an im-
posing attitude, it would be impossible that her
welfare at home, or her interests abroad, could be suffi-
ciently promoted while her finances were in a disordered
state. No man could deny that the present was a time in
which it was of the highest importance to us to command
the respect of our allies and the fear of our enemies.
It was likewise universally admitted, that this country,
incapable as it was of maintaining a large military esta-
blishment, must always feel its great strength to lie in its
financial power—in the credit and the public confidence
which would enable us to meet any emergency. The
Right Hon. Gent. complained of the manner in which the
estimates were prepared : some of them for five quarters,
some for fours some terminating at one period of the year,
and some at another. He also thought the House and
the country had much reason to disapprove of the large
amount of unfunded debt which was allowed to remain—
a debt that, in the event of any untoward circumstance
occurring in the course of our foreign policy, might lead
to the most disastrous results. He regretted to notice the
existence of such an amount of unfunded debt ; and he
regretted it the more, e hen he brought to mind the possi-
bility of the payment of that debt being postponed to a
later period than was usual. With reference to the Noble
Lord's observations as to the financial year, he understood
that the object of the Noble Lord in making the cnange
was, that he objected to the practice of voting the esti-
mates at a period after the estimates for the preceding
year had all been expended; that he objected to taking a
vote in April, for services that had previously only been
provided for up to the sth January, and the Noble Lord,
therefore, wished to have the money voted before it was
expended. But the Noble Lord had not correctly under-
stood the practice, which was to calculate the estimates so
as to have a sufficient surplus in January to carry on the
eervice.up to April. If the estimates were now to be cor-
rectly made up to April, were to include the provision be-
tween January and April, the Noble Lord ought in fair-
ness to have Estimates for five quarters, as the proper
Estimates for the year, instead of four quarters. If, there•
bare, there were considerable reductions made, as he ad
mitted, yet they ought to decide on the financial merits of
the Noble Lord to be balanced against the surplus in hand,
reckoning by the ordinary financial year. He would not,
however, dwell on this subject. The Noble Lord relied
on making further reductions in the Revenue Departments,
besides those he had already made ; on looking, however,
to the state of tbose Departments in 1824, be could not
discover the large reductions for which tne Noble Lord
took credit. He did not believe the reductions of the
Noble Lord would exceed 60,000/. or 70,0001., which
was much below the comparative statement of the Noble
Lord. The House would recollect that when the Noble
Lord proposed the alteration of the wine duties on a prin-
ciple of revenue, he and his friends hail stated, that as a
matter of revenue that alteration would not answer the
calculations of the Noble Lord. It was not, however, as a
matter of Revenue that he had objected to that alteration,
so much as an infringement on the comfort of the con-
sumer. He had then stated that a great reduction of the
consumption would take place if the duty on that wine
which was used by the majority of time middle classes was
rais d, which would not be compensated by the increased
consumption caused by the lowering the duty on the
higher-priced French wines, which were used by the rich.
The statement of the Noble Lord, this evening, had showed
that his proposition had not oeen justified. Much of the
increased duty the Noble Lord had taken credit for, arose
from the duty on all the stock on hand; and when that
was deducted, it would be proved that the consumption
bed not increased. Up to the 14th of the present month,
the latest period to which the returns had been made out,
the diminution of the consumption of Portuguese and
Spanish wines was 274,000 gallons, while the increase
of the consumption of French wines was only 15,000
gallons. In the ensuing year, therefore, when there
would be no stock in hand to levy the increased duty on, the
Noble Lord would not find any increase of consumption to
warrant that calculation he had made of an increased duty.
The Noble Lord anticipated teat the increase of the re-
venue from that source would be 180,000/.; but when the
wine in bend was taken into corisideration, it was no:
likely to produce Imre than 35,000/. He, therefore, had
no reason whatever to change the opinion he had formerly
given. He should like to know what we hail gained tram
France as an equivalent for the indulgence we had shown to
her wines, as he remembered that what France was to do
in this respect, was held out to the House, at the time the
change was made, as an argument to induce it to con-
sent to the change. He had not yet seen any similar in-
oulgence granted by France to any of our productions,
and not seeing that, he could not say that the alteration
was more recommended by promoting an intercourse be-
tween the two countries, than by increasing the revenue,
and promoting the consumption of French wine. The
Noble Nord had adverted to the increase of the malt duty,
which he had heard with great satistaction; because, with-
out arrogating any merit to himself, he might be permitted
to remind the House, that when he had proposed the
abolition of the duty on beer, he had stated that he
anticipated there would be an increased consumption of
Over, and a diminutive consumption of spirits. He had,
therefore, heard with satisfaction, as an evidence of the in-
tichtmt
malt
re:einulahntns
atoedi :teaynti:consumptionotriaafmnnscendprdeei
trafoaisitarfesit(
nefarious
citu,olsheoeisenesemdoasper
,ouerm
oentifmmoyhwhe
pepbaoldeoesn.eu,e,ar
compound
th
at(ehiga t the consumption of
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hopes,third.inn)g,lifa neo trwhdetletraeshekrfeeioanari decrease
eo,
consumeowth
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hyee.
tAu:sen heof
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nmoreot i
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the Noble
hopedNbeverage,)ble tli oahrt in the notht
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the consumption of spirits would decrease still more. He
would not further detain the House. He believed that the
Noise Lord was not too sanguine in the hopes he had formed
of time resources of the country ; and there wee every like-
lihood that those hopes would be realized under the ordi•
nary circumstances of the country. If there were no
necessity for the country to make any new and greater
exertions—if there were no new and unforeseen calamity,
he should be willing to run the hazard fur the four nex,
quarters, though there was a deficient revenue. But
when he looked at the probability of there being a call
upon us for greater exertions, and when nothing was done
to diminish, but rather to increase, the accumulated
pressure upon our finances, he could not look forward with
any thing like hopes that the deficiency would be supplied.

Ile derived some hopes, indeed, from understanding that
the Noble Lord had abandoned his ideas of further reduc-
ing taxation ; he derived some hope from hearing the
Noble Lord express regret at the deficiency of the revenue,
which made him believe that the Noble Lord would return
to the old practices, and endeavour to place the finances
on a solid footing. At present, certainly, he looked for-
ward with some apprehension to the revenue being insuf-
ficient to meet the expenditure. He was satisfied that if
some efforts were not made to obtain a surplus--though it
might not be a large one—we might be exposed to great
difficulties.
Lord ALTHORP explained, that there was no danger
that the deficiency bills would not he paid off as they came
due in the current year. He conceived that the apprehen-
sions of the Right Hon. Gentleman were destitute of
foundation. The Right Hon. Gentleman, too, was mis-
taken in saying that the comparative estimates should be
fir five quarters. As they were not calculated to include
the surplus, but only from April to April, there were only
four quarters on which the comparison was founded.
Mr. GOULBURN explained, that his allusion was not
to the deficiency bills, but to the bills charged on the Con-
solidated Fund.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS must say that there was not
a man in the empire who did not look with great appre-
hension at the present state of our revenue, as growing
out of the paralysed state of our trade and manufactures.
The Nole Lord ad -flitted, that up to January last year
the deficiency of the revenue was 1,200 0001 ; and the
Noble Lord expected that up to Janu try, 1833, the in-
crease would be 800,0001. He should like to know, in
the present aversion to speculation, and present dullness
of trade, when no man entered into any concerns beyond
what were indispensable, how the Noble Lord had founded
his expectation ? Numberless inquiries had been made by
Parliament, but nothing had been done, and there would
be the same uncertainty in trade hereafter as there had
lately been. The No ale Lord had made a strange admis-
sion in saying that he should not propose, in the present
state of the Finances, to make any reduction in the sugar
duties. That was all the Noble Lord said of the colonies.
Formerly the Noble Lord bad held out hopes of an im-
proved fiscal policy being adopted towards the colonies,
which was to be made known to the House of Commons.
The Noble Lord bail, however, not said one word on the
subject, to which the Government was so strongly com-
mitted. The Hon. Member quoted the dispatch of Lord
Goderich, dated December 26, 1831, stating that a mea-
sure of financial relief for the colonies would be submitted
to Parliament during the present Session. Why did not
the Noble Lord explain what measure was meant? After
this announcement an explanation was required.
Lord ALT HORP bad not entered into any explanations
as to the colonies, because the measure of relief was condi-
tional on the adoption of the Oiders of Council. In the
Crown Colonies, which bad acted on these orders, it was
intended, as the fairest means of relief for them, to remove
a part of their local taxation. That, he believed, would
give them a great relief, while it would not injure the sale
of the produce of any other colonies.
Sir H. PARNELL said, that in 1830 it was possible
to have made a reduction of five millions ;-Ist, by atio•
fishing toe Sinking Fund-2d, by reducing the expendi-
ture—and one million by the reduction of the Four per
Cents. The Right Hon. Gentleman had directed all his
efforts to one point only, and had merely reduced the Four
per Cents. When the Right Hun. Gentleman complained
of the deficiency of the revenue, he ought to recollect, and
the House would suffer him to remind it, that the Budget
of his Noble Friend was not carried into effect. His
Noble Friend had proposed not so much a redution as a
transfer of taxation, the loss from the reduction of taxes
be proposed to make good by other taxes. But the House
refused, and that was the cause by 'he revenue was de-
ficient. It was not the fault of his Noble Friend. He
could find no fault with his Noble Friend's statement, and
he relied on his Noble Friend's exertions to reduce the
expenditure—to bring that down to the revenue. It his
Noble Friend, as he hoped, should be continued in office,
he ought to remember, that under the new Parliament be
would be the only finance Mini•ter who ever had it in his
power to reduce the expenditure; other finance Ministers
might have been as willing as his Noble Frienl, but in
the former state of the representation they had not the
power. He linked forward to the Reformed Parliament,
in the expectation that it would effect a material reduction
in the expenditure. He complained of public money being
paid into the Exchequer, which he considered perfectly
unnecessary, and an incurrence of useless expense. He
thought the Exchequer might be abolished with advantage.
It the principle which the First Lord of the Admiralty bad
adopted in the administration of the Navy—that of
consolidation— (Hear, hear)—were intronuced into the
Treasury, and also into the army, it would be attended
with considerable advantage to the public service, as well
as saving of expense. No branch of the public expendi-
ture was so much scattered about as the administration
of the 7,000,0001. allotted to the army. It would be
much better if these various divisions were consoli-
dated ; and he believed if this were done, it would
be found that we were keeping up a much larger
force, both at home and abroad, than the public
interests required. He complained that the House
of Commons had not sufficient information of the nature
and extent of our colonial resources, and of the means
which they derived from themselves.—(Hear, hear.) If
this subject were properly taken up and inquired into, he
believed that we should be able materially to diminish the
expense of these colonies to the mother country, as well as
to increase their trade and prosperity. He contended,
also, that all duties which fall on manutlctured goods,
and which tend to diminish their consumption, ought to
be abolished, as in the case of glass and of newspapers.
Notwithstanding the deficiency, he did not think the
country was in so low and depressed a state as many per-
sons were in the habit of contending.—(Hear.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought the Noble Lord had
acted perfectly fair in laying before the House, as far as he
was able, an estimate of the exact state of our financial
prospects ; and' though these, certainly, were nut very
prosperous, yet he did not think the deficiency was such
as to give any serious cause for alarm.—(Hear, hear.)
He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, that there was

an elasticity in the resources of the country, more than
adequate to the demands upon it. He did not, however,
think it politic to h ive a deficiency, for the Governmeni
might be driven either to incur fresh debt—and when he
spoke of incurring fresh debt, he included the issuing of
Exchequer bills, and all those expedients which were re-

sorted to for the purposes of turning off a temporary in-
convenience—(Hear, hear)—or the only other course
wou.d be the imposition of fresh taxes. Now he thought
it much better to keep those taxes which are already laid,
than to repeal them, and then be driven to impose others
in their stead. In the present state of public feeling,
however, he must say that he did not think it possible to
keep up a great surplus revenue—(Hear, hear)—and when
he recommended Ministers to keep up an excess of reve-
nue over expenditure, he did not contemplate such a sur-
plus as might be appropriated to the purpose of paying off
any part of the debt, but sufficient to provide against con-
tingencies or unexpected emergencies. It was much bet-
ter to maintain a tax to which the people were habi
tuated, than run the risk of being compelled to impose
a new one. When a new tax was laid, many wa)s
were found of evading it, but when it had existed for
five or six years, tne Excise and Revenue officers disco-
vered and prosecuted impostors. Capital also became
used to its operation.—(Hear.) He spoke of the genera-
lity of taxes, and without reference to the extreme case
of a tax which might have become particularly odious.
He could not, however, concur in the gloomy view which
some persons took of the state of our finances,—persons
who even ventured to doubt our ability to maintain the
public faith; he had no such opinion.—(Cheers.) Nor
could he agree with those who contended that the state of
the revenue indicated any increase of privation among the
labouring classes. There was a set of men who had just
started up, and who had discovered that the currency was
not sufficiently extensive to meet the necessities of the la-
bouring roan, and that whereas the Bank issued
17,000,0001. per quarter, they ought to issue 25,000,0001.
which they, in their wisdom, had laid down to be the pre-
cise amount requisite for the circulation ; on the contrary,
they found such an increase of consumption in many of
those articles which tend much to the comfort of the la-
bouring classes as to afford matter of congratulation, and
give
rise to a well-founded belief that their distresses had
been diminished, and their privations mitigated. The in-
crease in some articles of the revenue might be explained
by the effect of the previous alterations in the duties ; thus
the amount of revenue derived from the duties on bricks,
had increased, whilst that derived from the duties on tiles
had decreased. That was to be accounted for by the re-
mission of the duties as stated. The revenue from glass
had decreased, but that arose from the practice of making
glass thinner, and consequently a less quantity would covet
a larger surface. But let them look to the consumption in
malt : there had been an increase in the consumption of
that one article of 7,600,000 bushels on the average con
sumption of the last three years ; that was a test of the
increasing comforts and prosperity of the labouring classes,
for he considered that malt liquor was to them not a lux
ury but a necessary; and when there had been so many
objections raised to the operation of the Beer Bill, he re-
ferred to that one fact to prove its great advantages. This
increase of consumable articles was a great proof of the
increasing comforts of the lower orders.—(Hear, hear,)
The Right Honourable Baronet then adduced the in-
creased consumption of various other articles in support of

this position. Another ground of congratulatiou was the
diminution of the public expenditure. The Noble Lord
had certainly effected a considerable reduction in this
head. But before he could congratulate himself that the
whole of that reduction would be permanent, it would be
necessary to consider what were the articles on which the
reduction had taken place. The principal articles were
the extraordinaries of the army and navy. If in the latter
for instance, it arose from not purchasing stores, it was
clear that such a reduction, though perhaps a very proper
one for the current year, could not be calculated on as per-
manent; for the time was arrived when new ships and
new stores would be required. In the army there was no
reduction of force which would make a permanent saving.
The saving was, therefore, in the Militia and in the Ex
traordinares. The saving in the Militia arose from it-
not having been called out during the last year, which sav•
ing, therefore, was not permanent ; but in the Extraordi
naries there was a permanent reduction of perhap-
-200,000/. per annum. The House would observe, that
it was very important in all those instances, to inquire
whether the reduction was casual or permanent. He
did not agree with the Right Hon. Baronet who had
spoken last, that a material diminution of expenditure wa-
to be anticipated is a Reformed Parliament. Why was
such reduction to be expected in a Reformed Parliamen,
more than in the present ? Did the Right Hon. Baronet
think that the Noble Lord opposite would have expe
rienced any difficulty in carrying any measure of reduction
through the present Parliament ?
Sir H. PARNELL—I think not.
Sir R. PEEL—The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted
that he thought not. He could not, therelore, rely touch
on the next Parliament for reduction. He did not be-
lieve that any measures of reduction which the Noble
Lord could propose in the present Parliament would meet
with onposition through the selfish feelings of any Mem-
ber—certainly not of a majority.—(Hear.) Under no
fresh constitution of Parliament could the Government an•
ticipate a greater reduction than their own sense of duty
would lead them to propose, and the good feeling of such
a House of Commons as the present would lead them to
sanction. The Noble Lord had attributed the diminu-
tion of the revenue to three causes. To the cholera, po-
litical excitement, and the state of the currency. With
reference to the first cause, he believed that the apprehen-
sion of foreign Powers had produced a sensible effect upon
our trade. With respect to political excitement, the
Noble Lord thought that it was about to be at an end,
and tbat consequently there would he an increase of the.
revenue. He hoped that it might be so, but there ap-
peared to be no great diminution of it in Ireland.—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP was understood to say, that the re-
venue in Ireland had increased last year, notwithstanding
the excitement.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Noble Lord knew best
on that point, but he thought the fears entertained in Ire-
land for the security of property would do more to dimi-
nish the revenue than the excitement of political warfare.
The Noble Lord had also adverted to the currency as one
of the causes of the deficiency in the revenue, and he had
observed, that the changes which had taken place, as well
as the uncertainty which prevailed with respect to ulti-
mate proceedings, and the effect produced by the fluctua-
tion in the exchanges, had doubtless contributed much to
that state of things in which they at present found them-
selves. Now in his (Sir R. Peel's) opinion, the Noble
Lord had diminished the consequences of the cholera, and
he had much over-rated the effects of the changes in the
currency. Undoubtedly, however, the Bank had con-
tracted its issues, and, as a consequence, the proceedings
of the conntry banks must have been limited, and the ca-
pital required for the operations of commerce decreased.
Now if this were so, how necessary did it become, on the
part of the Noble Lord and his Colleagues, to seize the
earliest possible opportunity to place the foundation of all
the currency on some sure and satisfactory basis.—(Hear,
hear.) Parliament should not be allowed to separate
without some expression on the part of the Noble Lord as
to the course which the Government intended to pursue
with respect to the question now under agitation.--
(Hear, bear.) It was possible, perhaps certain, that the
Committee would make no Report dining the present Se--
sion ; and unless Parliament assembled for a short sitting
in October or November, which he supposed was rather
improbable, six months must elapse before the country
could receive information on that most interesting suhjec .
(Hear, heir.) He repeated, full six months; for the
elections could not, under any circumstances, take place
much before December, and as there were snows anti
storms in the North at that season, which must be taken into
account, it was not at all improbable that the elections
might not take place during the present year. With six
months of recess, then, before teem, he put it to the Noble
Lord whether it would not be politic to put an end to that
state of uncertainty which the Noble Lord admitted to
have so strong an effect on the issues and the exchanges,
by at once stating what were the views of the Govern-
ment on the question —(Hear, hear.) No one expected
the Noble Lord to go into the details which were to form
the subject of deliberation hereafter ; but the Noble Lon,
and the Government must have already made up their
minds on the great leading points of the course they in-
tended to pursue ; and if the Noble Lord described cor-
rectly the prejudicial effects of the existing state of uncer
tainty, he recommended him to put a termination to it by
avowing at once the opinion of the Government.—(Hear,
hear.) It was a matter of regret that the revenue during
the last two years bad suffered so much diminution ; but
he felt convinced that the great s.,urces of national pros-
perity were unaffected.—(Hear, hear.) Of this, too, he
was sure, that no proposition to get rid of their difficulties
inconsistent with the preservation of the national faith
would be tolerated even for an instant, and that no man or
honour in any Parliament would attempt to propose it.—
(Cheers.) He was confident, too, while the sources of
prosperity were unimpaired, that if any occasion arose
which required a national sacrifice, that the people of
England would not be found wanting for the effort.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had adverted to the state
of the Colonies. He (Sir R. Peel) approached that part
of the subject with pain, for be believed no Parliament had
ever separated before, leaving the colonies in a state so
little satisfactory to the mother country. All they knew
with respect to the colonies was, that the Government did
not intend to exact the obedience of the islands possessing se-
parate Legislatures to those Orders in Council which had
been the object of so much contention. He wished, how-
ever, to know, whether the Government persisted in their
intention to force the obedience of the Crown Colonies.
Every one knew that the Orders, although nominally en-
forced in the Crown Colonies, were universally disobeyed ;
and he put it to the Noble Lord whether, under such cir-
cumstances, it would not be more consistent with the
honour and dignity of the Crown, to withdraw them alto-
gether ?—( Hear, hear.) While on this subject, he wished
also to ask, what reward the Government intended to be-
stow on the colonies that accepted the Orders ? The fiscal
regulations had been abandoned—the discriminating duties
were
not
right,t to b
the h
e collectedoter ;
countrybut, if
wash he understood
pay a
the
portion Nobleo
Lord
the Civil List of the obedient colonies. Now, be put it
to the Noble Lord, whether, after all they had heard of the
necessity of compelling the colonies to bear the expense of
their own Government, this was rot an act of retrogra•
ding—(Hear, hear)—and a departure from the avowed
determination of those who were placed over that depart-
ment ? He could not sit down without adding a few
words on the subject of foreign policy. There were, at
this moment, rumours of armaments for the coast of Por-
tugal, and rumours of armaments for the Scheldt ; God
knew with what truth, or for what purpose. Of course
it was intended that the expense of these armament,
should be paid out of the naval estimates, because
no Government could venture to expend a large sum
on an armament without coming down to Parliament and
demanding a vote for that purpose. He objected, however,
under any circumstances, to the course pursued on the
strength of documents, which could only tend to mislead
the judgment with respect to the question at issue. At
all events, he hoped the Noble Lord was prepared to say
whether there was the least probability that the treat.),
dsmt tif:oieeguahtdl
e,
rubpol eirsao rl
vptaeert
roi
so,
poaeo,tsieva,
eitiord that
of
to
hth that
er
t?hhoe horrors Holland
rHo
reswouldhohoped, would
p
ra.bi
iindeed,
Tlconsentteoehdea,yt
avert
eht acceptrha
tdattthe
toite
lament at that moment the existence of war in another
country, Portugal. He was convinced that the civil war
which raged in that country never would have commenced
but for the encouragement given to it by the Government ;
Ind this much he might add, that the endangering the
peace and prosperity of Portugal by a prolonged civil war,
never could prove conducive to the honour and interests
of England. Witb respect to Holland, he could only say,
that if the King refused to ratify the treaty, then the ar-
tuarnents which must follow would disturb the calculations

of the NohleCor(l,;d the surplus he bad calculated on
would not be realized. Whether, however, the Noble
Lord's calculations were or. were not realized, whatever

was done by this country, whatever money was expended
to force Holland to sign the twenty-four articles, would

_ •
.e expended in a manner contrary to the true interests of
England—against the independent rights of the Inn her
Powers of Europe—and, it incurred in conjunction with
France directed against Holland, would be Inconsistent
with that course of feeling which the wisest of British
Statesmen bad always pursue!, and which might be preg-
nant with consequences to the peace of the world that no
man could foresee.—(Cheers.)

Lord MORPETH said, he would take the liberty of
making a remark upon a subject which much concerned

► great body of his constituents. It would be remera-
here(' that there is a Stamp Duty of considerable amount
upon Bills of Exchange, which duty was increased a few
years ago, and it is found to bear very hard proportionally
upon bills for small sums. Formerly, a great part of the
transactions in that large manufacturing district with
which he was concerned was carried on by the circulation
of these small Inland Bills of Exchange, and it was a cir-
culation calculated to be of great additional value since
the withdrawal of the small pound notes. That melt-
sure has, undoubtedly, many strong and powerful rea-
sons to recommend it; but it has, unquestionably, been
attended with a great decrease of the circulating medium,
,nd a stinting of the means whleh gave life and acti-
vity to commerce. The circulation of Bills of Es-
change drawn on account of country banks upon Lon-
don bankers at a date ❑ot exceeding. two or three months,
was well ad►pted to fill up the vacuum, without any of
the corresponding disadvantages. From terminating at a
specific time, they do not run the risk of producing panic
like small notes, by being presented all at once; nor an
unlimited and excessive circulation, such as is apt to arise
out of re-issuable paper which has no limit of time. It
may be further remarked► that they derive fresh security
from the extent of their circulation, as every additional
hand through which they pass, and every additional iiddia'
indorsed upon their back, furnish additional vouchers
for their authenticity. Now this medium of circulation,
which would thus appear to be at once both wholesome
and useful, has become very rare in the manufacturing
district where it formerly prevailed ; so much, in a great
degree, owing to the high rate of duty, which causes the
,uin of 1001., if drawn in small bills, to be subject to
twice the amount of duty that would be required if drawn
for in one bill ; it happens hence that the manufacturers
are put to considerable expense by having large bills to
be broken into small ones ; or else the balance of their
accounts remains unsettled in the merchants' books
(which is the very worst state of things), from a disin-
clination to incur the expense of a scamp for a small balm' e;
for though the difference of expense may seem very traileg,it
must be remembered, that in concerns of trade, pewits
are made of very small savings upon a large number el
transactions. It was true that the present state of the
revenue di I not invite his Noble Friend to consent to the
reduction of duties; but it appeared moat strikingly in the
present instance, that the increase in the scale of duties
had been attended with a very great diminution of their
gross amount. He hoped that his Noble Friend would,
during the recess, give his best attention to these cosi,
derations, with a view of effecting a diminution of the dn.,
ties upon Exchange Bills for small sums at a limited date.
Mr. ROBINSON thought, that notwithstanding the
deficiency in the revenue during the last two years, there
was no reason to despair, and that they might fairly look
for a considerable surplus in 1834, if, as he hoped, the
Noble Lord persisted in his present course, and made no
attempt to raise a Sinking Fund. It had been said that
the labouring classes were, by the state of the revenue, in
a condition of prosperity. He did not wish to draw a '
discouraging sketch of the state of society; but he feared
much that the returns, which showed an increase in the
consumption of tea and sugar, were balanced by a falling
off in the demand for beef and the necessaries of life.
With respect to the Noble Lord's statements on the subject
of wines, he could only say, that he had always been ad-
verse to the increase of duty on the wines consumed by the
middling classes, and the reduction of the duties paid on
the mare luxurious beverage of the rich, anil the revenue
was now suffering under the effect of the change. He re•
commended the adoptian of a modified property tax. He
m►t,ust frankly say, however, that in his opinion the finan-
cial statement of the Noble Lord was very candid and
satisfactory.
Mr. COURTENAY expressed his satisfaction at the
change which it was proposed to make in the mode of
levying the duties on sugars. Much hail been said of re-
ductions ; he wished that an official statement of the re-
ductions which had taken place during the last five years
were laid oa the table of the H use; and it would then
appear that the Duke of Wellington, without imposing
a single tax, had reduced taxation to a greater extent than
my 111inister who had precede I him. He agreed with as
Right Hon Baronet that his Majesty's present Ministere?
had beeu very reserved in their communications on the
subject of th it foreign policy.
Lord SANDON wished for some explanation with re-
paid to the manner in which the administration of affairs
in the colonies war to be left. He wis'ied also to knout
whether the same boon was to be held out to all the co•
loniee on the condition of their acquiescence in the Orders
in Council ? Adverting to what had fallen from the
Hon. Member for Worcester on the subject of agriculture?
he must say that he did not think that agriculture was in
the depressed state which the Hon. Gentleman supposed. I
The farmers were perfec'ly satisfied.
Colonel SIBTHORPE was bound to differ from the
Noble Lord on the subject of the state of agriculture. He
express• d his astonisha►.nt at the congratulations which
the Noble Lord had received on his financial exposé. He
saw no grounds for a single hope that there wound be any
dimintrion of taxation.

Mr..BURGE strongly recommended to Government
course of proceeding with respect to the colonies which
would inspire them with confidence, by giving no counte-
nance to those who would excite and inflame the passim,
of the negro population; and by impressing on the people
cif this country that they had the greatest interest in the
preservation of the prosperity of those colonies.
Lord ALTHORP said, the R ght Hon. Baronet, the
Member for the Queen's County, complains that I have
not brought lorward a colonial budget. But, Sir, there
are greater difficulties in the way of proposing such
statement than the Right Hon. Gentleman seems to be
aware of. We have been able to prepare estimates of the
charges of some of the colonies, and the estimates respect-
ing the others are in a forward state ; so that I hope thats
by the next Ses,ion of Parliament, we shall be able to
produce a Budget for the whole of the colonies. With
respect, Sir, to the question which has been put to me by
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for T .mwortb,
have to say, that it is impossible that the colonies could
be induced to adopt those measures for the improvement
if the condition of the slaves, which we all have so much
at heart, without this country's adopting some measure§
fur the relief of the colonies from the distresses under which
they were st present suffering. But when I was asked
before, respecting the intentions of the Government i 0
this matter, I said that I should not propose any measure
of direct fiscal relief other than by a reduction of the
taxes on colonial produce. But, in consequence of the ap-
pointment 01 a Committee, in each House of Parliament/
to inquire into the condition of the slaves, and other
matters connected with the colonies, it has been thought
right to withdraw the Orders in Council from thole
colonies which have Legislative Assemblies ; and it W$
felt, at the same time, that it would be unfair to exile
those taxes from such of the Crown colonies as had
adopted the Orders in Council. But the Right HO%.
Baronet asks, do we mean to give them this relief, "
they resist the adoption? I have only to say, Sir, tbat
it is not the intention of the Government to do so—(Hear'
hear.) The measure will not expose this country to anY
expense, and from what I have heard, I believe that the,
giving relief to the colonies in their internal taxation, will
be felt to he a great benefit to them. I shall not go further
into the subject at present. But when the question come!,
regularly I efore the House, I shall, of course, be prepare°,
to give the fullest explanation.—(Hear.) The Right
Hon. Member for Totness asks whether the Government
has taken any measures to prevent the conversion of per
manent into temporary annuities? I think, Sir, that the
conversion of perpetual into terminable annuities affords
great means of reducing the amount of the debt ; and the.
Government have taken no step to prevent that conver'
sion. But perhaps, Sir, the question of the Right Hoc.
Gentleman refers to a determination which has been come
to respecting the purchase of the annuities of persons
above eighty years of age. It was found that annuitants
above that age took an unfair advantage of the regulation,
and that their annuities were made the object of a sys-
tematic speculation upon the Stock Exchange ; and
an alteration was made in consequence, limiting the
of the
to eighty.eannuitants
who might avail themselves ef
agthee
conversion The Right Honourable
Gentleman has also asked if I have any hope that France
will give us commercial advantages, in return for the
arrangements which we have made in favour of French
trade? Sir, I have sanguine hopes that the Government
of France will relax some of tLe restrictions upon our
tride.—( Hear, hear,) Ido not say that anything of the
kind has yet been done, but I have strong hopes that it
will he done.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth entered, as he fairly might, into 1
variety of topics connected with the finances of the court'
try, respecting some of which I entirely agree with biro'
although I cannot go so far as tie respecting them all,'"
(Hear.) I agree with him as to the policy of changing °
oad tax for one less oppressive. I agree with him as

the propriety of having a large excess of revenue over eS-
penditute; and I could have wished that it teas possible
tor me to calculate on a larger excess; but I think that 10
the circumstances of the country, the arrangement which
I have adopted will be found equal to the exigencies of the
,tate. The Right Hon. Baronet says that I have °—
nt
,na.le sufficient allowance for the effect, which, it appear'
to him, the spread of the cholera will have upon our trade'
It may be that I have not. But it seems to me that there
is every reason to believe that the effect of any apprehen-
sions respecting that pestilence will not occasion, sfter
this, any great interruption to commerce, as there are (as