The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-22 00:00:00

church, but also that those who contribute them shall have
the power of declaring that they will apply their subscrip-
tions and benefactions in exoneration of their lands from

the payment that is now due from them. Lastly, with
reference to this part of the subject, we propose that when
the charges so put upon property voluntarily, with the
voluntary subscriptions and benefactions to which I have
adverted, shall together equal the amount of the church-
rate which has been raised in any parish within a certain
number of years from the time the rate was last raised, the
Queen shall be empowered by order in Council to declare
that church-rates in that parish are for ever abolished.

gear.) Let me stop here for one moment. You will ob-

serve by this, the first part of our proposition, that we do
not abandon the legal obligation which rests upon property

to answer the debts to which it is liable, but we encourage
the owners to pay those debts in a voluntary manner, and
as soon as the payment is made complete church-rates are
for ever swept away ; in other words, you have the com-
pulsory payment done away with, and you have a volun-
tary charge supplied in its place. (Hear, hear.) I know
that many people have thought that these voluntary charges

will not be made, or that voluntary benefactions will not be

given. A word or two upon each of these points. I told
you, at the commencement of my observations, reading from
an analysis of the returns of the number of churchmen
who were landowners in the parishes to which those returns

related. I told you also how little their properties were
subdivided. Take these two facts together, and can you
believe that landlords who are churchmen will not impose
upon their lands a charge which is only a substitute for that
which they now pay ? Can you believe that they will
refuse to do that which will, in point of fact, put an
end to a strife which they all desire to see terminated
as much as we do ourselves ? My own impression is,
that the 8,000 landowners in the 10,000 parishes from
which returns have been made, being churchmen, will un-
hesitatingly charge their properties to the extent of the
church-rates which they now pay, so that almost a sufficient
fund will be forthcomingfrom that source alone. But I own
I set even more store by the voluntary contributions and
benefactions which we propose. (Hear, hear.) I believe
that when these contributions and benefactions are allowed
to be made there are many who will come forward to relieve
their poorer fellow-parishioners by exonerating their lands
from the payment that is now due from them. I am not now
speaking upon mere conjecture. Let the house bear in mind
that the voluntary contributions made on behalf of the
+I. bat 50 years, and especially atuilig ale
last 10 years, are enough to encourage us in broaching a plan
like that I have proposed. Is the house aware that from
1800 to 1850 there has been contributed by the State towards
Church purposes about £1,600,000; and that, to meet these
grants so made by the State, voluntary subscriptions,
amounting to nearly £9,000,000, have been offered for the
benefit of religion ? (Hear, hear.) Is the House aware that
every year LlO,OOO is applied from the Queen Anne's Bounty
for the benefit of the Church, and that the benefactions
which are 'made to meet it are four times the amount, or
£40,000 per annum. (Hear.) In the diocess of Winchester
alone £200,000 has been contributed by the Church for
Church purposes • and it has been met by benefactions vo-
luntarily offered to the extent of £1,500,000. (Hear, hear.)
When the right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle and
myself sat in the Ecclesiastical Commission, it was proposed
that we should give £37,000 for erecting parsonage houses
and other Church purposes. The Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners applied that sum in the manner stated, but at the
same time resolved to ask for benefactions to meet their con-
tribution, and the result was that voluntary offers were
made to the extent of four times the original grant. Again,
when the Ecclesiastical Commissioners found themselves
with a surplus they took advantage of the experience which
they had acquired in the matter of the parsonage houses,
and determined upon applying their surplus only in con-
sideration of voluntary benefactions being made to meet it.
What was the result ? In 1857 their surplus was £5,000,
and they were enabled to contribute towards the augmenta-
tion of small livings to the extent of £12,000. In 1858 their
surplus was £lB,OOO, and I believe I do not overstate the
fact when I say they were able to contribute £50,000. In
the present year their surplus amounts to £50,000, and I
am credibly informed thatit is likely to be increased to the
extent of 75 per cent. by voluntary contributions, the whole
to be expended upon the augmentation of poor benefices.
(Hear, hear.) I say, then, you have everything to en-
courage you in seeking to apply the voluntary principle in
aid of the Establishment. But this is not all. By another
clause in the bill we propose, with reference to contracts to
be hereafter made, to enable a tenant or occupier of land to
deduct any church-rate that may be paid by him in respect
of such land from the payment due to his landlord - in other
words, to transfer to the man who is legally bound to pay
the rate the actual duty of discharging it, and to free the
occupier who may not agree with his landlord in religion.
(Hear, hear.) These are two of the propositions which we
have to offer to the house. But these propositions would
be incomplete if we did not meet the only, practical griev-
ance that exists—viz., the grievance felt by the conscien-
tious Dissenter. (Hear, hear.) lam one of those who
think that the claim of the Dissenter to be exempted from the
payment of a charge resting upon his property stands, strictly
speaking, neither upon reason nor upon law. (Hear.) To ad-
mit that principle would be to admit that in the general taxa-
tion of the country, if persons like the members of the Society
of Friends objected to the application of the public revenues
to warlike purposes they should be held to be entitled to
exemption upon conscientious grounds. (Hear, hear.) If
you once admit that principle, you could not deny the other
persons, such as Protestants who have a charge upon their
property in favour of the Roman Catholic religion, or Ro-
man Catholics who have a charge upon their property in
favour of the Protestant religion, the same benefit which,
upon the plea of conscience, you are now asked to confer
upon Dissenters in the matter of church-rates. (Hear.)
The claim made on behalf of the Dissenters is one, there-
fore, to which I could not assent--.-not, that is, as a matter
of strict law or right ; but when I look at the circumstances
under which church-rates were originally given, when I know
that all the people in
.the pountry were then of one mind
in respect to religion, When I remember that-they equally
had the benefit of the rate and equally subjeeted themselves
to the obligation to pay, and when I , further recollect that
all these things are so much altered that the benefit and
the obligation do not go together, I will not say that the
Dissenter has a right to exemption, but I do say that the
churchman may as a matter of favour extend to him an ex-
oneration from the obligation of contributing to a fund from
which he now derives no advantage. (Hear.) Then, that
being so, .I am perfectly willing to subscribe to the amend-
ment moved by Sir W. Page Wood and to the motion
made by Dr. P imore, and supported by several men of
eminence in this house. I am perfectly willing by some
such means to abstain from calling on those for payment to
church-rates who stated that they conscientiously objected
to such payment. Dissenters object, it is said, to this. plan
because it brands them with a stigma ; I think that a most
unfortunate declaration, because I should not have ima-
gined that the historical descendants of the old Reformers—
the successors of those who felt pride in avowing their opi-
nions openly and frankly' and were not ashamed to suffer
for their opinions, would have turned round when it was
proposed to relieve their consciences by an exemption from
a legal obligation to say that a stigma was attempted to be
placed on them. But, however unfortunate this state of
feeling may be, I still must recognise it, and therefore it is
our duty to see if we can so frame this objection as not to
hurt and wound the feelings of the Dissenters. We hope
we can do it in one way. We propose that when the rate
has been imposed the collector shall take round certain
papers, one of which shall contain a form, wherein a person
may simply declare that he conscientiously objects to the
payment of this rate. We propose that whoever makes
this declaration shall be exempted, and be from that time
free from the obligation of paying the charge. But, as a
consequence of this, we also think that any person who
claims the benefit of exemption from that obligation should
take no part in vestry meetings where the rate is imposed
until he consents to pay some rate. (Hear, hear.) That
is the mode in which we propose to deal with this part of
the question. The summary is this—that we turn the
compulsory into a voluntary payment, and we hope by
these means to satisfy the Church and conciliate the Dis-
senters—that we give to the occupier the right of charging
against his landlord the payment of the rate, and we relieve
the Dissenters in a manner which we believe the least in-
jurious to the Church and the least offensive to their own
feelings. (Hear, hear.) I said at the beginning that I
feared the time was come when the settlement of this ques-
tion in the best manner that could be devised was no
longer practicable; but I think I have submitted to you a
proposition which, at all events, considering the difficultias
under which we labour, does offer a practicable solution of
the question in a simple, just, and comprehensive form.
(Hear, hear.) I have only one or two words to add, and
they are in the way of appeal to the hon. baronet the mem-
ber for Tavistock. There are now two propositions before
the house— one for the absolute abolition of church-raies,
• without substitution, and the other which offers a volun-
tary substitute, and doeS violence to no one. These two
issues are before you, and I ask you, which will you choose ?
Will you choose to sacrifice all those obligations which rest
on property merely because you wish to urge a conscien-
tious plea which no longer applies, or will you meet us in
the spirit in which we endeavour to meet you—the spirit
of conciliation, peace, and goodwill—being desirous to
terminate the controversy which, unfortunately, has existed
too long ? (Hear, hear.) If you adopt the proposition
of the hon. baronet you will, in point of fact, be asking
Parliament to sanction the proposition that there should
be given up without a substitute a legal obligation not
only on your property, but on the property of those who
first imposed it and made it subject to the maintenance of
the fabric of the church where they heard inculcated the
ordinances of the Church and of religion. (Hear, hear.)
Give up that, and you cannot distinguish between church-
rates and tithes in principle, and must give up the obliga-
tion similarly imposed on property for the ministers of
religion throughout the country. Give up these, and you
give up the. religious part of your parochial system, the
existence of an Establishment, and sever the connexion
between Church and State. (Some cries of " Hear," on
the Opposition side.) That cheer shows that there are
some—very few, I believe—who would wish to sever . the
connexion between Church and State. (Cheers.) There is a
very small body, I know, who would trust everything to
the voluntary principle. I also would trust the volun-
tary principle taken in aid and in conjunction with the
obligation due to the Establishment ; but, take it alone, I
am confident it never will or can reach every part of the
country—it never can get into the remote districts, nor
meet the wants of the immense population who, I am sorry
to say, are at this moment without the benefits of
religion and education to an extent which. ought not to be.
(Hear, hear.) I ask those who support that principle,
which, remember, I am not gainsaying, for I am an advocate
of it in conjunction with the establishment, do they think it
would supply religion, as anything else may be supplied, in
the ordinary way of supply and demand ? (" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Hadfield.) The hon. meinber for Sheffield is
one of those who have immense confidence in their own
principles, but he does not always extend to others the same
confidence as to the sincerity of their opinions ; but I would
put it to the hon. member for Sheffield whether he can
apply the ordinary principles which regulate the distribu-
tion and acquisition of wealth to the higher matters of
education and religion ? (Hear.) The hon. member is nod-
ding his head—(laughter)—and I suppose thinks so ; but
let me tell him that so long as you deal with the physical
wants of men you will always find the principle of demand
and- supply strongsufficientlyin folly te, to meet those wants ; but
when
andthi
oumdoeraeldweiepthlythe higher parts of nature it always
has been, and always must
sunk
man is the less he will desire the
that
advantage
theme
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thefe
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ias
e for Christianity
yn must
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liable to be moved by higher feelings. For this reason it
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riis that Dr. Chalmers said, in his own forcible lan-
guage,structed, would never go forth in quest of Christianity.
(Hear, hear.) Therefore it is that
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etitu,4o4B 4.41,79 always insisted means of an esta-