The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-02 00:00:00

hat Court of Admiralty, but finding it could not
be reformed, it was entirely abolished.--( Hear, hear, hear.)
At a subsequent time the Court of Exchequer, which was re-
cognised by the Act of Union, if not abolished, was so much
modified that there were no longer separate judges, and
this was also for the benefit of the Scottish nation—(Hear,)--
because, Sir (addressing the chair), instead of presiding in
a mock court, we have the benefit of your presiding
with dignity and advantage over the Commons of England.
If, instead of the property of the Church belonging to the
State, which the State had conferred, and which might be
taken away by the donor, it had been the gift of an individual,
the proposition of the Noble Lord was still without exception.
He would not say that mortmain property the moment it be-
came mortmain, belonged to the State, and might be diverted
to any purpose. The will of the donor was to be ob-
served, as as long as it could be beneficially done ; but if
a change of circumstances arose, and that purpose could not
any longer be maintained according to the rules of equity,
and the well known principles of jurisprudence, the donor was
presumed, if alive and consulted upon the subject, would agree
to a different distribution. In Courts of Equity, when a cha-
rity could no longer answer the purpose for which it was created,
a reference was made to the Master to see what was the best
mode of carrying into effect the will of the donor.—( Hear. )
It mattered not to whom, or from whom the Church property
was a gift--whether to or from the Catholic religion ?
—( Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") The Catholic religion
was very different indeed at the time of the Reformation to
what it was at the present time. He was a sincere Protes-
tant, and had been brought up with rather a horror of the
Catholic religion ; and as it was established in its full vigour,
that horror of it was not diminished. He apprehended that
they would say with one voice, if after the present state of
the Christian world and civil society in Ireland, it was found
the Irish Protestant Church could no longer be maintained,
that the best and proper application of the funds of the
Church would be in a system of religious instruction to per-
sons of all persuasion. Well, then they were told that this was
not the time to bring forward the resolution of my Noble
Friend. Some say, wait for the report. Not so, however,
the Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire. He says he
cares not whether the amount of Church property was twenty
times as much, or the numbers of Church professors
twenty' times as small—that Church Property is inviolable,
and his opposition to this resolution consequently determined.
The Right Hon. Baronet had assured them in his resolution
that the Irish Church property was inalienable, and that that
principle should be placed on the statute-book of the country.
He had declared there should be no more reform in the Irish
Church. Let the numbers be ever so small, its appropriation
was inviolable. It was time that this question should be taken
into consideration, and that the House at the latest moment
should endeavour to rescue the country from the effects of this
Bill being enacted. He hoped the Resolution of his Hon.
Friend would be carried—and carried by a large majority.
What might be its result he could not pretend to say, but this
be would observe, that most sincerely should he rejoice if the
Right Hon. Baronet could be induced to bow to the opinion
of the House—if, after some compulsiie pangs of agonizing
pride, he should alter his course, and yield to its sentiments on
this subject, He was connected with the late Government,
and he could say truly, that his return to office was no object
of desire, as, from the station he fortunately occupied at the
English Bar, it was more desirable and more profitable to him
to remain in a private station. If the Right Hon. Baronet
would not change his course—if he was determined toproceed,
Right and he ( Sir J. Campbell) had no reason to think that the
I ion. Baronet entertained opinions in private which he did not
act upon in his public capacity—it' he was determined to pro-
ceed contrary to the opinions of the country, and be guided by
his associates in office, then it was of' the last importance that
his administration should be removed. He thought that every
lover of the English Monarchy should take alarm at the present
state of affairs, when they reflected that the executive power
of the country was in the hands of the present Opposition.—
Hear, hear.) He was a lover of the Monarchy—lie wished
to see the prerogatives of the Crown respected, and it was as
such, when he looked at what had taken place during the
last month, that he became apprehensive for the security of
the Monarchy ; but did the Right Hon. Baronet expect that
he would rule this country contrary to the wishes of a majority
of the House of Commons? The precedent of 1784 was re-
lied upon, but it bore no analogy whatever to the circum-
stances of the present times.—( Hear.) The Parliament which
now sits is one of the Right 'Hon. Baronet's own. choosing,
and yet he is now in a minority. Pitt, in 1784, when he at-
tempted to rule the country, contrary to the wishes of a majo-
rity of the House of Commons, had a Parliament that was
elected under.the Administration of his opponent, Lord North ;
but he had the opinion of the country in his favour. Does
the Right Hon. Baronet believe that he has the voice of
the country in his favour ? He (Sir J. C.) could say, that
from all that he had observed, and read, and believed,'the
present Cabinet had done enough to disgrace their characters
In the eyes of the country, without acquiring the respect of
any. They taunt us with adopting our measures, but in doing
so they have gone far enough to shew that they have no con-
sistency themselves, and have not spirit enough to satisfy the
just wi-tires of the pecple. He ( Sir J. C.) would not exa-
mine votes of the Right Hon. Baronet, hut looking at his Ca-
binet, which proposed to send Lord Londonderry to Russia,
and refused to grant a Charter to the London University,
he could not but say that their conduct had disgraced them in
the opinions of the British public. The Right Hon. Bart.
himself had net ventured to defend their conduct; be had only
defended himself and his own consistency, and had thrown his
col!eagues over board.—(Loud cheers.) He trusted that
the Right Honourable Baronet was not going to adopt
the course that had been pursued by the Duke of Wellington.
He had thought proper for three weeks to hold the Seals of ail
the different offices of the Crown, and had governed this coun-
try, as had been said, by a Dictatorship ; he trusted that the
country .now was not to be governed by a Dictatorship; he
trusted that at the present moment there was more than one
responsible Officer of the Crown—( Cheers)—and that the
Right Honourable Baronet in his own person did not hold
all the oirces of the State.—(Cheers.} It seemed
to him of the utmost importance for the protection
of the institutions of the country, if the Right Hon. Baronet
would not conform to the will of the majority of the House
and nation, that he should make way for a Ministry, let it be
what it might, whom the King could confide in, and who bad
the confidence of the country. He was tired of agitation • but
,he must say, that the only mode by which an end could be put
to agitation, was to have a Ministry whose principles harmo-
nized with the majority of the people. Nothing had afflicted
him more than the speech of the Noble Lord the Member
for Lancashire, who had openly avowed that however great the
property of the Irish Church was, and however few were its
members, still it ought to be kept up as it at present existed.
Before he sat down, he should allude to the sentiments of a
Noble Lord, whom he would not hesitate to place in com-
petition with the Noble Lord the Member for Lanca-
shire—he meant the Right Hon. Earl Grey.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not hesitate to place the opinions of that Noble
Lord in opposition to the other, although he must observe that
he had no authority for making such a statement ; but he had
good reason to believe that suds were the sentiments of that
Noble Lord. He had differed with the Noble Lord opposite
( Stanley) respecting the reduction in the revenues of the
Irish Church—he had differed with him on the 147th clause
of the Tithe Bill, and he had differed with him as to the ap-
propriation of the Church property. He therefore con-
ceived that he was fully justified in setting the authority of
that Noble Lord, who was universally beloved and venerated,
and "whose name was a tower of strength"—who was allowed
by even his political opponents to be guided by rational and
constitutional principles—he conceived he was fully justified in
setting his opinions against the opinions of the Noble Lord
opposite.—(Hear, hear.) He would not further detain the
House, as be agreed in the propriety of the compact entered
into last night by the Right Hon. Baronet, that each member
should sacrifice a portion of his speech, so that the debate
might be brought to a close that night,—( clear.) For the
Right Hon. Baronet he entertained very sincere respect, and
he believed that his principles individually were liberal and
straightforward.--( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Mr. RIC HA RD S rose with considerable reluctance after
the very eloquent speech of the Hon. and Learned Member op-
posite. He was anxious to state the sentiments that would
govern his vote, but he rose with even still more reluctance,
seeing the anxiety of many Hon. Members, on both sides,
who had more claims upon their attention to address the
House; but he claimed the indulgence of the House as an
independent Member—(Cheers)--anxious to vote honestly and
consistently—anxious to vote not for one party or the other,
but with a view to the interests of the country generally, and
more particularly, to the interests of Ireland. He agreed
with the lion. and Learned Civilian, the Member for the
Tower Hamlets, that they should vote on the present occasion,
not looking to the interests of England alone, but principally,
if not entirely, to the interests of Ireland. It was on that
principle that he should endeaVour to apprize the House
of Commons of the sentiments which induced him
to give his vote on the present occasion. He also agreed with
the Hon. and Learned Civilian that it would be presumption in
any individual or any party to set lip a standard of truth to which
the people of an entire country should bow. He agreed also
with the Hon. and Learned Member that they were all an-
swerable to the bar of their Maker, not merely for the senti-
ments they entertained, but for their acts and proceedings.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for Lan-
cashire, whose talents he (Mr. R.) bowed to with the greatest
deference, and whose eloquence delighted them all last night,
seemed to him to lay down as a proposition not to be departed
from, that Church Property is inalienable, and as regarded the
Church of Ireland should be so considered. He even ven-
tured to put an extreme case, which startled the House; and
which had startled him (Mr. Richards), that if it was found
that in any parish not a single Protestant could be found, he
would contend for keeping up the Church Establishment in
all its present strength. In that he (Mr. R.) could not agree.
If there was any proposition more sacred than another, it was
that the institutions of the country, whether civil or religious,
ought to be continued with a view to the temporal and future
welfare of the people.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Pay-
master of the Forces, as well as the Solicitor-General, had
argued that Church property was inalienable, but that was
not the way in which he had learned what was due to the
people, not only of Ireland but of every country. If it could
be proved to him that the Church of Ireland did not
answer the intention of its founders, and promote the
happiness of the people, then, in his opinion, it
ought to be altered. If a community consisted of 100 or
1,000,000, and the Legislature which represented that com-
munity, would--on the principle of eternal justice they would--
determine upon the voluntary system as the only secure, safe,
and just principle—(Cheers)—if the majority of the commu-
nity were of that opinion—suppose that in community of
100 there were ten of different opinions—how was it possible
for any one to say which was in the right—then the only plan

was to act upon the principle of giving power to the majo‘rity
of the community. He had now stated the principle
upon which he would act in a new community, but he

must in the consideration of that qin..sti-n remember that
there was a Church Establishment in Ireland, Islach was in-
terwoven with all the feelings and interests of the country,
and the question was not properly to be discussed upon mere
abstract principle, but the question was whether the Church,
which has been established for ages—whether the institutions
which are based upon that Church—whether they ought now
to undo that Church—whether they ought to abolish that
Church, or whether they ought to apply its funds in such a
manner as to diminish its efficiency? That appeared to be the
real question, and if it could be shown that any attempt of this
kind, any diversion of the revenues, any alteration in the
amount applied to the purposes of that Church as by law esta-
blished, to the purposes of the Catholic Church, or any other
church, would injure it, and the constitution and principles of
it be thereby injured, and if it could be shown that not only
was there danger of this, but also of a civil war, by which the best
interests of society would be endangered, then he would say
that the principle to be maintained was, that they ought not
to meddle with the revenues of that Church.—( Cheers.)
What was the state of the Church in Ireland ? He asked not
in what way that Church was established ; that was not the
question. That Church was established, and the question was
whether they could alter it without danger ?—( Hear.) In
Ireland, civil and religious discord prevailed to such a degree as
not merely to injure the peace and happiness of the community,
but to endanger its very existence, and were it not for the
power of England, a civil war would now be devastating
that country. But then the question rose—Was it possible
for things to remain as they were ?—( Cheers from the Op-
position.) If it was not possible, then the question would
be, in what manner an alteration could be brought about, so as
to promote the well-being of society in Ireland, and to secure
the safety of the State ? The institutions of the country ought
to be, and must be in the long-run, productive of good to
the country.—( Hear.) If it were shown, then, that the Es-
tablished Church in Ireland was not productive of good, and
that things were not to be continued as they were, then the
inquiry was not how, as the Noble Lord the Member for Lan-
cashire contended, things as they are could be kept up, but
how they could bring about an alteration to the best ad-
vantage of, all the parties concerned 2—( Hear.) In Ireland
there were two parties, the Protestants and the Catholics ;
and also a third party, the people of England. The
question was, in what way the House was to act so as
to meet the views of the three parties, and to promote
the peace and happiness of all.—(Hear, hear.) In Ireland
there was a much deeper religious feeling than there was in
England—the Protestants in Ireland were not merely believers
in'the truth, but zealous believers--( Hear, and laughter)—and
attended most zealously and statedly to their religious ob-
servances. The same observation applied to the Catholics.—
(Hear, hear.) He had been frequently in Ireland, he had
mixed with both patties, and had observed an attention to reli-
gious duties there which he had never observed in England.—
That also must be taken into consideration. The question was
how they were to deal with them in such a way as not to hurt
the feelings of either party, and at the same time to do
justice to both parties. He would then come to the consi-
deration of the scheme of the Noble Lord the Member for
Devonshire. That scheme had for its object to take from the
Protestant Church a part of its revenue, and' to apply it to
education generally.--( Hear, hear.) He must complain of
the terms of the Noble Lord's motion as somewhat disin-
genuous—it would lead persons to believe that it was intended
merely to divert a part of the Church revenues, when they
were not wanted in order to further the education of the
people.—(Hear.) His conviction was, that the object
of this motion was neither more nor less than a diversion of
the revenues of the Protestant Church, which was to be given
to the Catholic Church.—( Hear, bear, and cries of " No,
no.") It had been said over and over F gain that seven-
eighths of the people of Ireland were Catholics; if then, they
were prepared to take from the remaining one-eighth a part
of their present revenues, and apply it to the whole people,
it was evident that they must apply it in the proportion of one
to seven.—( Hear, and laughter.) It was taking from the Pro-
testant Church and giving to the Catholic.—( Hear, from
the Ministerial Benches, and laughter from the Opposition.)
What had come out in the;,iehate from the Gentlemen on the
opposite side of the House? He had taken down the words of
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Nottingham, and
with the permission of the House, he would just read them.
The Right Hon. Baronet had stated "he quite agreed with those
Gentlemen who had said that the real point of improvement
was, whether or not the House of Commons intended the
Catholics of Ireland should understand that they were to
participate in the advantages of the Protestants."—( Hear.)
They did not mean to participate in the religious advantages—
they want to participate in the revenues--( Hear, hear.) He
believed he might say this was ea7eulated to alienate seven-eight.;
—at all events a large part of the revenues of the established
Church, in order to bestow them upon the Catholics—( Hear,
hear.) Now to return to the scheme of the Noble Lord, the
Member for Devonshire—( Hear, and cries of " Read, read.")
The gentlemen opposite, and particularly the Hon. Member for
Dublin, he hoped would extend him their indulgence. Indeed
he was quite sure the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin,
from the extreme liberality he was known to possess, would
make excuse for a person who was not circumstanced to ad-
dress the House so often as that lion. and Learned Gentleman.
—(Oh, oh !--go on, go on and laughter.) He had too much
respect for the House to occupy too much of its time unne-
cessarily. The first thing the House ought to look to was the
dangerous consequences that must follow from the motion of
the Noble Lord the Member for Devonshire. Could it be
doubted that the first attempt to carry this motion into effect
would be a signal for civil war in Ireland ?—(" Oh, oh I" from
the Opposition, and cheers from the Ministerial side.) Could
it be supposed from the feelings of the Irish Protestants, who
are in the possession of the revenues of the Church (he would
not say how they became possessed of them) that they would
give them up without a struggle, and a violent struggle too.
The question, therefore, the Hue had to consider was, not
only the proposition of the Noble Lord, but the disastrous re-
sults that must flow from it. The people of England were
Protestants, and wliateer disputes might arise as to the numbers
of Protestants and Dissenters, they all agreed in their opposition
to the Catholic religion ; and it could not be for a moment for-
gotten by the House that one consideration should be attended
to—namely, in what way the Protestant people of this country
will receive the proposition, and in what way they will deal
with it. He could imagine the Noble Lord the Member for
Devonshire visiting his constituents, and attempting to shew
his dissenting friends, and to state the grounds of his present
proposition, which he would say was made by him for the purpose
of restoring peace and tranquillity to Ireland.—( Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He may tell them that the Irish people
are poor, houseless, in want of clothing, and hungry—
and that he was not prepared to clothe the naked or to feed
the hungry, but that he proposed to divert from their proper
purposes the revenues of the Protestant Church, and give
them to the Catholics. In making these statements he ( Mr.
Richards) would be glad to know if the Noble Lord did
not fall into the Serbonian bog, whether he could escape from
falling into a Devonshire bog. The Noble Lord, if he would
not say what his own colleagues had done, would tell them
what his Whig predecessors had proposed for the advantage of
the country. He would tell his constituents that they repealed
the septennial act, brought excise into the country, and proposed
to introduce it into our private houses, and that they originated
the bullion Committee which led to the disastrous state of the
country in 1819. He might say, look to what we have done for
the Dissenters, look to our Marriage Bill, make a comparison
between our acts and the acts of the present Administration.
He might say all this, but he would find that the people of
Devonshire would be shrewd enough to distinguish between a
hawk and a buzzard—( Great cheering, and laughter.)
He, might say, " I, Lord John Russell"—( Laughter, and '
loud cries of " Order, order.")
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to order. The Hon. Member in
debate had adverted to an Hon. Member by name, which
was out of order. —( Cheers.)
Mr. RICHARDS—I have only put those words into his
own mouth.—( Laughter.) Well he might say, "I, the Hon.
Member for Devonshire—(Laughter)—and you all know my
sense and discernment—l raised the income tax from 71s to
10 per cent.—( Cheers from the Ministerial side of the House,
and cries of " Read, read," in consequence of the Hon. Member
referring to his notice). He would not pursue that further,
but the question now was, what was to be done ? He thought
it clear that the scheme of the Noble Lord could not be satis-
factory, and possibly it might lead to mischief.—( Cheers.)
If the Catholics got part of the revenues of the Church,
they would not be satisfied till they got the whole—
( Cheers.) He would propose a plan which should be prac-
ticable, and it was impossible to expect success from any plan,
unless it would conduce to the welfare of Ireland, and not
minister to the prejudices and animosities of Protestants or
Catholics. He would propose with great submission and with
the consciousness that he was taking a liberty--(Cries of
" No, no,")—that the Church property (if it were determined
upon the Noble Lord's motion to divert any part of it from its
present purposes to others) should revert to its ancient origin
—( Hear, hear)—at the time that it was the property of the
poor. And surely it would not be denied that the great bulk of
the people of Ireland were the poor. The Right Hon. Member
for Cambridge had stated a strong claim on this property—that it
was in part appropriated in the time of Henry VIII. to the
use of parochial schools. But he (Mr. R.) would revert at
once to the origin of that property, by applying the whole of it
to the support of the poor. The Hon. Members opposite
would, he was sure, respect the authority of Dr. Doyle on
that subject, and those on that side of the House the authority
of Selwyn. Now both those authorities stated that the whole
of that property was applied to the maintenance of the poor.
" Non quasi sues, sed quasi commendatis,"—not as if their
own, but in trust,—were the words, and the manner in which
they should deal with it. If it was given in support of the
poor—if it was given to clothe the naked and feed the hungry
—let them act on its purport ; but if any different distribution
was contemplated in the property of the Church, in the name
of humanity he called on them not to divert it from the pur-
pose and origin for which it was established. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cambridge had quoted an Act of
Henry VIII. to show that the property then enjoyed by the
monasteries was saddled with the burden of parochial schools.
He could also quote Statutes of Henry VIII., in which there
was a saving clause against a violation of the uses of Church
property. That eminent Divine, however, Dr. Doyle, had in
his mind set the question at rest, in his celebrated letter to the
Right Hon. Member for the town of Cambridge, andhe would
state, on the authority of that celebrated letter, that that
Learned Divine had it in contemplation to institute a suit in
the Court of Chancery, for the recovery of the rights of the
poor, which, as he observed, had been diverted from the purpose
for which they were intended, and was only restrained from
Lord Manners being the then Lord Chancellor of Ireland,
and the time not being favourable. Having shown that the
poor have an ancient right, and are emphatically entitled to
this property, and that no ties can render sacred a legal wrong
—finding that the question now before the House, is whether
you will violate this property or not—as the humble though
sincere supporter of the poor, he implored the House
not to divert that property from its specific purpose. He