The Sun.
London, England, 1835-06-01 00:00:00

SCOTCH CHURCH.

Sir C. FE RG USSON preseuted petitions from Forfar.
Kircuribright, and several other parts of Scotland, in favour
of extending Church accommodation in that country.
Similar petitions were presented by Captain Gordon, Mr.
C. Bruce, Mr. Sinclair, Sir Andrew Agnew, Sir Philip
Durham, and Sir Michael Shaw Stewart.
General SIIARPE and Mr. DILLON presented petition.,
against any further grants.
When the question was put that these petitions be laid or,
the table,

Mr. C. BRUCE begged to take that opportunity of refer-
ring to certain charges which were made by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Falkirk (Mr. Gillen), before the recess, against Mr.
Buchan, one of the most estimable and respectable gentlemen
connected with the Church of Scotland. That Rev. Gentleman
wrote to the Hon. Member to disabuse his mind of the misap-
prehension he laboured under, and respectfully called upon him
to retract the observations he (Mr. G.) had made in thin.
House, fur the accuracy of which he had taken upon himself.
to vouch. A correspondence ensued in the course of which
the Hon. Member praised the Rev. Gentleman for his zeal
and ability in diffusing the blessings of a sound religious
education, notwithstanding which admission, he repeated
his attacks on Wednesday week, in a speech which was only
repeated, and occupied a closely printed column in the Courier.
He was then proceeding to vindicate the Rev. Mr. Buchan
from the charges made against him by the lion. Member, when
Mr. CU RTE. IS rose to order, as he considered it irregular,
and tending to provoke discussion, to refer to petitions pre-
sented at so remote a period from the present.
Mr. C BRUCE would throw it out of consideration alto-
gether. It was first charged, that in the returns of the
General Assembly Committee, a church was omitted to be
mentioned, for the purpose of deceiving the public ; secondly,
that the accommodation for Dissenters was also omitted; and,
thirdly, that the most improper means were resorted to for prt -
curing signatures to the petitions in favour of a grant to the
Established Church of Scotland. On the part of the Rev.
Gentleman, he (Mr. B.) denied these charges, and in conclu-
sion hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would be more cautious
in making such unfounded charges for the future.
Mr. GIL LON defended himself from the imputations cast
upon him, and again repeated that the emissions he had men.
tionnd were made, and that the most disgraceful measures were
employed to procure signatures to petitions in favour of the
Established Church of Scotland. On the ',art of the people
of Scotland, he protested against any grant of public money to
the Church of Scotland, as .an act of the grossest and rankest
inj es ice.

Sir G. CLERK had several petitions to present to the
same effect, and would therefore beg leave to make a few ob-
servations. It was said the object, on the part of the Esta-
blished Church of Scotland, was to injure the Dissenters—he, in
the name of the Establishment, protested against that doctrine.
The efforts of the people of all denominations under the volun-
tary system fell short of what the country required—it was
the duty of the House to supply the deficiency, and to
provide religious instruction for the poorest men in the
land.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Whether the sum required was
10,0001., or an infinitely larger sum, there was no way in
which the money of the public could be more beneficially em-
ployed, or one more consistent with the principles of due eco-
nomy.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that the House could not
in justice refuso this very moderate demand of the people of
Scotland.

Mr. O'DW YE R was far from saying that if there was a
unanimous call on the part of the people of Scotland for a
grant of public money that it should not receive the considera-
tion of the House. But the public opinion of the people of
Scotland was very much divided upon this subject. Many of
those who were so loud in their exclamations against a grant
to the Roman Catholics, why were they not here to oppose this
grant to the Presbyterians of Scotland, who were as much op-
posed to their notions as the Roman Catholics ? If the
great members of the Presbyterians were anxious to build new
churches, they could find means to do so without coming to
the public Treasury.--(" They do.") In Ireland, a country in-
finitely poorer, the Catholics supported the Protestant religion,
and at the same time their own ministers. He had not any con
scientious scruple to prevent him from voting for this grant if
it were proved to be necessary. A yearly grant of 8,0001. was
made to the College of Maynooth, and if that House should
think fit to refuse this grant, he believed that the refusal
would produce nothing like national dissatisfaction.—( Hear,
hear.) If any Hon. Member should move that this grant
should be refused, there would be many persons found on
that side of the House who would more readily support such
a motion than one for giving a new grant to the people of
Scotland.
Mr. HAL LIBURTON had presented a petition signed by
1,000 persons of the Establishment, against this grant ; and
he had another petition from a Dissenting congregation,
which would have been signed by many of the Establishment,
if the Dissenters would have consented to their so doing. It
was not therefore fair in Hon. Members to state that persons
of the Establishment did not petition against the further en-
dowment to the Church of Scotland.

Mr. Serjeant JACKSON conceived that there was a much
greater difference between the Roman Catholic and the Esta-
blished religion, than between the latter and the Presbyterian
religion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was proceeding to
comment on the speech of the Hon. Member for Drogheda
(Mr. O'Dwyer), when
The SPEAKER said thst it would be a serious interruption
to the business of the House if there was to be a lengthened
discussion upon the presentation of every petition.
Mr. Seregant JACKSON begged to dissent from the ob-
servations of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite. If
the tax for the support of the Chureh were taken off, it was
certain that the tenant would have so much le rent to pay to
the landed proprietor.
Mr. WALL ACE presented a petition from Cupar, in Fife-
shire, against any further grant to the Church of Scotland.
With reference to this subject, he would say that there were
14 parishes about the town of Cupar, in all of which there was
more Church accommodation than required. He believed it was
a fact that there were large sums in the hands of proprietors
of Church property, which had not yet been applied to the
purposes for which it was levied.
Mr. WILK S thought the Dissenters would oppose any
grant which would only be in substance a new church-rate levy.
Petitions were presented by the Attorney-General and the

Lord Advocate from various places in Scotland for and against
any grant to the Church of Scotland.
CASE OF MR. CHILDS.

Mr. WILK S presented petitions from the Dissenteti
resident in, and within twelve miles of London, pray-
ing for a restriction in the juriscrction of the Ecclesiastical
Courts, and the extinction of Church-rates; from 1,150 Pro-
testant Dissenters, to the same effect ; and one from a
place in the county of Norfolk, with a similar prayer. As
the matter had been already sufficiently discussed, he would not
enter at any length upon the subject further than to express
his opinion, and that of the Dissenters generally, that it was a
case of great hardship and oppression—( Hear). The Hon.
Member alluded to the triumphant procession which had ac-
companied Mr. Childs on his liberation, and which had roused
a spirit of resistance to oppression, as connected with the
Church, which would do it more injury than almost any thing
else.
Sir RONALD FERGUSON, as the Hon. Member for
Ipswich was not in his place, begged to correct a statement
made by him relative to Archdeacon Glover. That venerable
clergyman had requested of him to state that the information
upon which the Hon. Member had proceeded, was quite
erroneous.
Mr. BANNERMAN presented .petitions from hand-loom
weavers of various parts of Scotland, complaining of distress,
and praying some legislative relief.
Mr. C. BRUCE presented a petition from a place in Scot-
land against the appropriation of any portion of the Irish
Church revenues to secular purposes.
Mr. PA RR OTT presented a petition from 600 householders
of Torquay, praying for Vote by Ballot.
Mr. I3R OTHERTON presented some petitions from hand-
loom weavers, complaining of distress.
Mr. HARDY presented a petition to the same effect, from
6,000 hand-loom weavers of Bradford.
COUNTY RATES.

Mr. E. BUL LEllpresented a petition from the county of
Stafford on the subject of county rates, praying for a
reduction of the same. In the year 170 the whole ex-
pense of the county gaol was 1,0561. In the year 1834
It was 51601., but there was a proportionate increase
of prosecutions. He trusted that Government, in considera-
tion of the distressed state of the agricultnral interest,
would take this matter into serious consideration, with a
iew to the establishment of a general fund. The peti-
tioners also complained of the increase of expenses, arising
from bridges and turnpike roads • and also of the enormous
salaries of some of the county Officers. The petition was
igned by 5,000 persons.
Mr. C URTE I S presented a similar petition from Sussex.
Sir .1. WROTTE SLY supported the petitions.
Lord R. MANNERS presented some petitions from the
county of Leicester, complaining of agricultural distress, and
praying for a modification of tithes.

TIM SUN, LONDON, MONDAY, JUNE 1, 1835.

of Mr. Walsh—(Laughter)—of one little circumstance,
merely, that Mr. Walsh had been convicted by a jury.--
( Hear, hear.) The only doubt then was whether Exchequer
Bills were or were not articles, the embezzlement of which
were felony ; but Mr. Walsh had been found guilty
upon an indictment tried at the Old Bailey..--( Hear. )
Mr. HUME said the decision against Mr. Walsh was re-
versed, and therefore he stood in the situation of having
no charge against him, as far as the law was concerned, of
moral guilt.
Mr. ELPHINSTONE thought the House was competent
to decide upon the question.
Mr. METHUEN rose to order. He thought the House
ought not to have its time taken up with questions of this
kind, it being a contest purely between the Hon. Member and
his constituents.

Mr. ROBINSON thought the petition should be with-
drawn, or that the Honourable Gentleman should have an
opportunity of explaining. As far as his experience
went, he could say that in every instance of this kind an op-
portunity had been afforded to the Member to justify his con-
duct. It was a mere question of feeling, and he considered
the discussion to be altogether irregular.—( Hear. )
Lord JOHN RUSSELL understood the Hon. Member to
bring forward this petition in order that there might be some
decision upon the subject. Now he certainly agreed with the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite that this was a kind of question
upon which there could be no decision by the House.—( Hear. )
It was a question between a Representative and his consti-
tuents with regard to certain statements which he was
supposed to have made to those constituents—( Hear, hear)—
he therefore would recommend the Hon. Gentleman not to
bring forward a petition of this kind, especially as he was not
prepared with any specific motion on the subject.—( Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK hoped that the Hon. Member would
bring forward the petition.—( Hear, hear.) It would be
unjust to allow this charge to hang over him which
did bang over him, rnd would hang over him, unless he was
able in the House to wipe off the stain that was then upon
him ; therefore the House was bound to give him a hearing.
Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER said it was for the House to consider
whether it was that sort of petition which was within the re-
cognition of the House. It was a question for the House to
consider whether they would enter into discussions between
Members and their constituents, and in tieing so they would
also consider what the consequences of such a course of pro-
ceeding would be,—( Hear, hear.)
Mr.-JO HNSTONE said he was ready to adopt any course
the House would suggest ; either to avail himself of the in-
du'gence of the House now or at some other period, but cer-
tainly he was very anxious to give an answer to this most ex-
traordinary charge.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. PR YME understood that the question before the House
was whether this petition should lie on the table--(No, no)—
he was quite aware that that question would not be put, but he
would suggest to the Hon. Member that when the petition was
brought forward, he would give him an opportunity whatever
might be the ultimate decision of the House, of making his ex-
planation.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHAW apprehended that without any motion before
the House, any Honourable Member might claim the indul-
gence of the House to give any explanation in answer to a
charge affecting his character as a Member of the House.
Mr. JOHNSTONE was proceeding to address the House
upon the extraordinary nature of the charge preferred against
him, which, he eaid, arose out of a pledge which was given
by him ; when
Sir ROBERT PEEL rose to order, and said he could not
help thinking that this course was likely to involve the House
in a very considerable difficulty. It was quite clear that this
was a matter over which the House had no jurisdiction.—
( Hear, hear.) It related to a Member who bad made some
engagements with his constituents, with which, how-
ever, the House had nothing whatever to do ; and if
the Hon. Member persisted, he would be taking an advantage
of the petitioners by making a statement which they could
not answer; and, besides, that it would be establishing a
most dangerous precedent. If the Honourable Member
volunteered an explanation, he thought he must admit that
he would be taking 'an advantage of which he ought
not to avail himself, and though he (Sir Robert Peel) did not
participate in any charge against ' him, he would have
another opportunity of explaining himself to his constituents,
and a better one too, as the question did not properly come
under the jurisdiction of the House.—( Cries of " Hear.")
Mr. F. BUXTON said the Honourable Member was no
doubt anxious to vindicate himself, and it would be rather
hard if he were not allowed an opportunity to do so.
H.: recommended the course suggested by the Right
Hon. Baronet ; at the same time he hoped it would go forth
to the world that no imputation could be substantiated against
the Hon. Gentleman.—(Loud cries of " Hear.")
Lord HO WICK concurred with the Right Hon. Baronet,
and thought if they allowed this proceeding to go a step fur-
ther, the Home would establish a most dangerous precedent.
--(Hear.) It was stated that the Hon. Member had pledged
himself to resign his seat if he pursued a certain course, but
he trusted the House would never recognize that principle.-
-(General cries of " Hear, hear.") The Hon. Gentleman
hal been attacked in the newspapers, and a course was be-
fore him by which he could explain himself to his Constituents
w:evout bringing the matter before the House.
Mr. ROEBUCK would ask whether the Chair had not
put the question whether the petition should be received, if
so, was it right that any Honourable. Member should be
c died to order while speaking on the question ?—( Hear.)
Ho thought he had a right to talk for an liour.—( Laughter.)
Sir R. PEEL explained.

Mr. JOHNSTONE said in compliance with the feeling of
the House he should not force his statement upon it. —( Cheers. )
The Petition was understood to be withdrawn.
THE RIOTS AT WOLVERHAMPTON.

On L:)rd JOHN RUSSELL limier,: the Order of the
D iy for going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. THORNBY rose to ask a question of considerable
importance of the Noble Lord, and alien he said that
it related to the recent outrages at Wolverhampton, he was
~uite sure the House would favour him with its indul-
gence—( Hear, hear)—he had received a statement confirmed
by Mr. Roaf, a Dissenting Minister, alleging that the soldiers
were brought in in a most unexpected manner, as very few
eked ins hid passed off w ith less riot. Three persons had
been shot, but although the military been called into action,
their appeared to have been very little confusion, the only
breach of the peace being some one breaking four panes of
glass at an hotel. He could not see why the military should
interfere on such occasions, and believed it was quite illegal.
—( Hear, bear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had received a similar state-
ment, but he bad given directions to the magistrates to make
a full and impartial enquiry, which be would take care should
be speedily carried into effect, and he would every paper
he received before the Hause.—( Hear.)
Au HON. MEMBER had received also communications from
the borough of Wolverhampton, fully confirming the state-
ments made by his Honourable Colleague, though he was
aware that much reliance ws not to be placed upon what
had taken place in the midst of excitement, and although
he had gone over all the circumstances in order if
possible to find out something to qualify the state-
ments and justify the parties implicated by them, he
had been unable to find out any thing which showed that
no riot had been proclaimed in the town, or that the soldiers
had not been called upon to act with a violence,
he believed, totally unparalleled in the history of
this country.--(Cheers.) He had a guide by which he could
measure the extent of the disturbances that had taken place
in the town, for he had received a communication from
persons who all agreed that the disturbance that did occur
on Wednesday last could not be named in comparison with
the disturbances that took place at the last election for the
borough. At that election it happened to be his fortune
not to be the popular candidate, and he considered that his
friends had been rather hardly dealt with, he applied to the ma-
gistrates,who state they had no effective police; he thensuggested
that some precautionary measures should be taken to keep all
quiet during the night ; this suggestion was coldly received by
the magistrates. This he did not attribute to any difference
in political opinions between the magistrates and himself, but to
their knowledge of the dispositions of the people in that town.
The military were not then called out, and no disturbance took
place. In the present instance, however, he was at a loss
to know upon what grounds the Magistrates had thought
proper to proclaim a not in the town.—(Loud cheers.)
In his opinion there were facts connected with the conduct of
the military that loudly called for the inquiry suggested by his
Honourable Colleague.—( Hear.) He should consider the
conduct of the military extremely illlegal and uncalled
for, till he was informed to the contrary by some military
member of that House.—( Cheers.) Were the military to go
out and act according to their own discretion—(Cheers)—
firing on the mob in a manner totally uncalled for? He en-
tirely agreed with the suggestion of his Hon. Colleague, that
Government ought to send out some competent person to
inquire into the matter.
Such a course would tend to allay the great excitement
that prevails in the manufacturing districts. It was in his
opinion reasonable, just, and expedient, for the Govern-
ment to send down an Agent to institute an inquiry
into this melancholy occurrence, in order to let the people
of this country see that they had a Government prepared,
andalso willing, to offer them redress.—( Hear, hear.)
r. FO STE R—ln consequence of the absence of his friend
the Member for North Staffordshire, who was confined from
indisposition, he felt it his duty to defend the con-
duct of the Magistrates of that county, and
to vindicate them from the charges with which they had been
impugned. He would, therefore, beg to read a statement of
this melancholy disturbance which he had that morning re-
ceived from the Rev. Mr. Clare. He then proceeded to read
the letter of the Rev. Gentleman. It differed very much from
the statements published in The Sun.
Mr. THORNLEY explained.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY regretted that the Government
did not consent to grant the inquiry. All he wanted was a
full investigation, but he certainly should not be satisfied
with a military investigation alone. —( Hear, hear, hear.)
The investigation that had been already had was by no means
satisfactory, and he thought there were sufficient grounds for
the enquiry he asked.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that if the enquiry the
Hon. Gentleman sought was likely to give satisfaction, he had
no objection to adopt that course.
In answer to a question from Sir H. H A RDINGE, the
Noble Lord stated that both from the statements of the Magi-
strates and the High Constable, the conduct of the military
was spoken of as having been marked with the utmost for-
bearance.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SC HOLEFIELD roso, and was left speaking.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Lord HATHERTON (Mr. Littleton) was introduced, and
took the oaths and his sett,

Lord DENMAN took his seat on the Woolsack at five o'clock.

Petitions praying for additional grants for the endowment
of Churches in Scotland were presented by the Duke of Gor-
don, the Earl of Haddington, and Lord Lynedoch.
Lord ROLLE presented a petition from a place in the
county of Devon in favour of the Great Western Railway.
Lord DACRE presented a petition from Berkhampstead,
signed by the Rector, Overseers, &c., praying the House to
pass a ,law whereby the funds left for the support of Grammar
Schools might be applied to all branches of edueation.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented a petition
from Banff against any further grant of money for
the purpose of extending Church accommodation in
Scotland, as the Churches now in existence were not filled.
Some of the petitioners had been entrapped into signing peti-
tions on the other side of the question, and they were most-
anxious that their real sentiments should be known.—(Hear.)
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition complain-
ing of agricultural distress, from a place the name of which
was not heard in the gallery.
The Earl of DARTMOUTH presented a petition praying
for the protection to the Established Church, and an alteration
in the Catholic oath, by which Members of that religion might
be prevented from voting upon any questions which involved
the safety of the Established Church. •
The Bishop of LICHFIELD and COVENTRY being
officially. connected with the vast population from whence this pe-
tition; came had been requested to support its prayer, a prayer
in whteh he entirely concurred. The table of that and f the other
House of Parliament would ere long be crowded with petitions
of a similar nature, and he hoped that his Majesty's Govern-
ment would be induced to review the course they were about to
pursue—a course which must ultimatelydestrloy the Irish Church.