The Sun.
London, England, 1859-04-19 00:00:00

the fear has no foundation, because during the ten
weeks so many conflicting reports have been in cir-
culation, the conduct of Parliament has been emi-
nently judicious. (Hear, hear.) A complete absence of
party spirit, and the calmest !forbearance, have marked the
sense Parliament has entertained of the gravity and im-
portance of the interests involved in these negotiations; and
its unanimity on more than one occasion expressed its con-
viction tha', the national law of Europe ought to be main-
tained. I wish that my noble friend had been able to make
a more satisfactory statement to your lordships. I wish that
on the eve of the dissolution of Parliament, when during six
weeks this country will be deprived of the assistance which
Parliament might have given to the Ministers of the Crown,
my noble friend had been able to allay the public anxiety.
But, my lords, assuming that there is sincerity on the part
of the Government, assuming that they are not pursuing a
hidden policy which they dare not avow—(cheers)—and
whichwould entail that frightful:responsibility to which my
noble friend alluded in the concluding part of his speech, it
is difficult to apprehend how matters have arrived at their
present stage. (Hear, hear.) Austria declares that she
will not attack Piedmont, Piedmont declares that she will

not attack Austria, and France declares that she will not
attack Austria unless Austria attacks Piedmont. England,
Prussia, and' Russia have been employing their good
offices unceasingly, according to the statment of my
noble friend, in order to bring about a satisfactory settle-
ment. All profess the utmost anxiety for peace and the
utmost abhorrence of war; and yet, during all this time,
preparations for war upon a gigantic and ruinous scale have
been made. (Cheers.) Austrian corps d'armee have been
pouring into Italy. The troops which have arrived from
Algiers and those which have gone from Paris are to com-
pose an army of the Alps. There is unusual activity in the
arsenals and dockyards of France. (Cheers.) In short,
everything in France denotes an approaching campaign.
Piedmont is checking the industry of her people by the
large army she is keeping on foot, and by the maintenance
of those great bodies of volunteers which she invites from
every part of Italy. The warlike spirit of Germany can
scarcely be kept under control, while the newspapers are
full of offensive and hostile articles. And yet, in the pre-
sence of this menacing state of affairs, in this hourly in-
creasing danger of war, this Congress, which is said to be
the only means of maintaining peace, cannot meet because
the parties have not agreed upon the sine quibus non condi-

tions of the negotiations. (Hear, hear.) My lords, I must
say this does not bear out the assumption that there is an
honest purpose or desire to keep the peace. (Cheers.) This
fact justifies mistrust, and to that mistrust I attribute the
proposal which my noble friend has just mentioned. I
think that Austria should not have made a demand upon
Piedmont to disarm—(hear, hear)—and I think that that
demand should have received neither support nor encourage-
ment, for Austria thereby has rendered herself liable to the
charge of proposing that which she knew could not be
agreed to, and therefore of creating an unnecessary amount
of obstacles to the meeting of the Congress. And, my
lords, in the present excitement and enthusiasm in Pied-
mont, no matter how that arose and whether justifiable or
not, I really can conceive nothing more likely to bring about
that rupture which all profess to dread than the disarma-
ment of those inflammable materials collected everywhere
—those corps of volunteers, amounting, I understand, to
about 10,000 men. (Hear.) All these are now under the
control of military discipline, but once let loose from order,
they would have committed acts which_ Austria would
have punished, and Piedmont would have resented. I have
heard with very sincere satisfaction this evening from my
noble friend not only that this proposal did not originate,
as was at first imagined, with her Majesty's Government,
but that it proceeded from Austria. But, my lords, Aus •
tria has made another proposal for a general disarmament,
accordinc, to the statement of ray noble friend. Although,
abstractedly speaking, such a proposal would be most de-
sirable, yet when considered with reference to the meeting
of the Congress it does not appear to me to be a wise pro-
posal. If Austria were to recall all those troops that she
has lately sent into Italy, and if Piedmont were to adopt a
similar course, there is no doubt the result would be bene-
ficial. But, my lords, things have gone too far for that.
None of the parties can have sufficient security as to what
will be the result of the Congress to disarm at the present
moment. It seems to me that the proper course to have
taken was simply to have entered into an understanding by
which it should have been agreed that no further prepara-
tions should be made, that no troops should be moved from
their actual position, and that no attack should be made by
either party until he Congress should have deliberated
upon the questions in dispute. (Hear, hear.) The points
for deliberation might then have been settled. This might
have been done if the parties sincerely desired to do that
which was right and just and likely to be lasting, and it
would have been found that the business of the Congress lay
in a nutshell. (Hear, hear.) I was glad to hear from my
noble friend, although his statement was far from satis-
factory, yet that the idea of a Congress is not abandoned.
After all that has passed, after all the expectations that
have been held out, I think it would be unfortunate if a
Congress were not to meet. (Hear, hear.) A Congress is
necessary after a war in which several Powers have been
engaged in order to settle the terms of peace, and to make
those arrangements which are necessary for the establish-
ment of peace, in which arrangements all the Powers con-
cerned are interested ; but in the present case it is difficult
to understand what are the questions upon which the de-
liberations of a Congress are necessary. If, my lords, it is
intended to require Austria to withdraw from that territory
to which she has a treaty right, why, my noble friend and
her Majesty's Government know very well that the answer
of Austria would be that she recognises no authority on the
part of a Congress in 1859 to abrogate the rights conferred
by the Congress of 1815. Austria would reply that she was
prepared to defend her rights, and •there would be an end of
tho Congress. If it is intended to require Austria to with-
draw from territory to which she has no right, we all know
that she is prepared to do so as soon as France .withdraws
front Rome. If it is intended to demand an abrogation of
the treaties between Austria and the Italian States, that is
a matter for negotiation. In fact, if what my noble friend
says is strictly true it would appear that when Lord Cowley
returned to Paris he had in his hand all the means of bring-
ing matters to a satisfactory solution. (Hear, hear.) But
I believe that all my noble friend knows is this, that one
despotic Power has proposed to another despotic Power
that, by means of a Congress,' a third despotic Power
should pave the way for liberal institutions. (Hear, and
laughter.) The principle of referring to negotiation all
matters in dispute was adopted at Paris, and one may rea-
sonably expect that when the plenipotentiaries of three
Powers meet round a table, the armies of those Powera will
be less liable to meet in the field. It appears to me that
there should be preliminary arrangements for the meeting
of the Congress—first, that the rights conferred by treaty
shall be strictly respected, and secondly, that the rights
conferred by treaty shall in no respect be exceeded. If we
are parties to or in any way sanction the violation of those

treaties by which the Austrian possessions in Italy are to be
secured and maintained, we may rely upon it that that pro-
cess will not stop there, and that we shall soon have to con-
sider other and more important questions of territorial right.
However objectionable the treaties of Vienna may be, after
a lapse of 40 years, be thought to be in some cases, yet it
cannot be denied that, upon the whole, they have served
their purpose of maintaining the peace of Europe, and the
best proof of the beneficial consequences of the arrangement
which they effected was the universal satisfaction with
which all Europe hailed the declaration of the Emperor of
the French, " L'Empire c'est la paix." But if Europe is to
be scrambled for as we have heard, there will be nothing
but endless confusion and strife. (Cheers.) It is, therefore,
not only to the interest of Austria, but for the general secu-
rity of Europe, that rights conferred by treaty, and which
now form a part of the international law of Europe, should
be maintained. We must also remember what were the ob-
jects of the Powers by whom the treaty of Vienna was con-
cluded. Their efforts were mainly directed to creating a
barrier against France, more especially in the north of Italy,
and therefore it was the unanimous wish of all the great
Powers of Europe that Austria should resume her posses-
sion of Lombardy ; and it was for precisely the same reason
that Genoa was added to Piedmont. (Hear, hear.) All
the territorial possessions which were maintained or secured
to Austria are to be found enumerated in great detail in the
Treaty of Vienna; and the nature of the possessions of
Austria in Italy was, I believe, most correctly described by
my noble friend when he said that they were the result of
conquest, inheritance, long tenure, and treaties which for
upwards of 100 years had been recognised as part of the
national law of Europe. Upon those treaties, then, Austria
has a right to take her stand; and, so taking her stand, she
should be upheld by the other Powers of Europe ; but when
she does so I think that she is bound to make every conces-
sion compatible with her honour to avert the calamities of
war. (Hear, hear.) I think that she is bound not to exceed
by one single hair's breadth the rights conferred upon her
by those treaties. (Hear.) But it is contrary to those treaties
and it is contrary to international law that Austria should
claim to occupy, and to reduce to a condition of political
vassalage, States that aught to be independent. I think
that those exclusive treaties between Austria and the Lega •
e,t
ye
rand,ies
were
wereo
unnecessary,
t haee
e greateo
at haaerr,hand,mistake
nd hee nanva
tabhl ee
provedph ae
rrt
ot
iofnjou
icc Austriaoccupy
tion States which, on the one hand, give them a right to call
_itnhethhireartteatrriihd
mtoaAdeusattria. I do n
this
time with
ievtbhelanye
chance
suceeh t
of
heretieinagesarcrioeudldinbtee
effect; for in the present temper of Europe I believe that
the occupation of any of those States by Austria would be
looked upon much in the same light as we regarded the
occupation of the Principalities by Russia. I believe that
it is in the interest of Austria that those treaties should ter-
minate, because while they exist she is made responsible for
the state of things which has arisen, under which the Sove-
reigns of those States are enabled to disregard the wishes
and opinions of their people, to sacrifice their interests, and
to govern without any reference to those reciprocal duties
which belong to Sovereigns and to people, because, as one
of them said, "I have 300,000 soldiers to back me, and I
can do as I like." (Hear, hear.) The occupation of the
Papal territory has hitherto been justified by Austria as a
measure of security called for by disaffection of the people.
But that disaffection is occasioned by misgovernment.
(Hear, hear.) Men are not naturally disaffected or turbu-
lent; men do not naturally rebel against good laws and
good treatment, but they do resent injustice and being made
miserable by bad laws ; and it is remarkable that in a small
sovereignty like that of the Pope the normal state of things
should be such as to require one foreign army in the capital
and another foreign army in the Legations. (Hear.) The
French occupation of Rome has been a great misfortune to
France, for it has placed her in a false position, and a false
position always becomes worse with time. France has long
felt that her army could not remain there with credit, and
that it could not be withdrawn with safety ; but while it
does remain there France is in the eyes of the world vir-
tually responsible for the acts of the Papal Government.
(Hear, hear.) Good advice has not been spared ; but it has
been oftentendered in vain, and all offers to interfere in the
internal affairs of the Papal Government, except for the pur-
pose of maintaining order and repressing the just discontent
of the people, have been peremptorily, refused. No position,
I think, can be more false or more injurious to a great nation
than that. I brought this subject of the occupation of the
Papal territory before the Congress of Paris because I
thought that the moment was an opportune one, when we
were taking measures for withdrawing foreign troops from
and other territories,osthtaetres.ceuntßuol
then to suggest their
theremoval Russian,also the G
from
that the Austrian and French troops should be removed as
rtheeekl;
soon as it could be done with a due regard to the tranquillity
of the Papal States and the consolidation of the authority of
the Holy See. My lords, three years have now passed with-
out anyeffect having been given to that resolution; whereas
I believe that if that arrangement had been carried out with
foresight and in a becoming spirit, most of the present com-
p
lications would never have ensued. (Hear, hear.) Her Ma-
jestrii Government could do Ao more than press Ow exPedi

ency of giving effect to it, as they, did ; and even if we had
had diplomatic relations with Rome any representations of
ours would have been disregarded. Some six or seven weeks
ago, however, we were told that the Pope had of his own
accord asked the withdrawal of those foreign forces, stating
that he was able to dispense with them; but how that re-
quest was made—in what form it was presented, in what
manner it was received, how it was acted upon, or why the
French and Austrian troops still remain just where they
are, we aro entirely in the dark. I have been informed that
the Austrian Government expressed the greatest readiness
to comply with our request--that two battalions of Austrian
troops actually left Bologna, and that the rest of the garri-
son would have quitted in a few days, when, somehow or
other, something occurred to put an end to their removal.
I believe that with proper precautions for maintaining tran-
quillity those troops might with safety be withdrawn.
(Hear, hear.) I believe that all persons of influence in the
central States of Italy have a great dread of revolution and
a great desire to arrive at a better system of government by
peaceful and legitimate means. I believe that the bubble of
Italian unityhas burst. (Cheers.) I believe that the partisans
of Mazzini and their detestable doctrines are extinguished. I
believe that there is no longer any faith in republican insti-
tutions ; but that the example of the Sardinian Govern-
ment has not been without its beneficial influence by prov-
ing that liberty and monarchy can co-exist. • (Cheers.) If
the treaty of 1815 is to be maintained—if Austria is pre-
pared to withdraw her forces from the Papal States—if; alive
to the inconvenience of those exclusive treaties, Austria is
prepared to make all such concessions as will not be dishon-
ourable or humiliating to her, we might ask, in the first
place, where is the necessity even for a Congress ? (Hear.)
Still more might we ask, where has been the necessity for
those great military preparations which for three months
have kept Europe in a state of anxious suspense, have put
a stop to all commercial enterprise, and have already inflicted
incalculable losses upon the countries engaged in them ?
And with still greater reason might we ask where is the
ground and where is the pretext for war ? (Cheers.) My
lords, war may desolate Italy; but it will not settle what is
called the " Italian Question." The country may be laid
waste, the fiercest passions may be called into action, all
those parties described by my noble friend may join in the
affray ; after a time the Austrians may be driven out of
Lombardy, Tuscany, Parma, and Modena, and Lombardy
may be annexed to Piedmont ; but I believe that such an
arrangement would soon prove more distasteful to Lom-
bardy than the present. There is no affinity between the
Lombards and Piedmontese—not even that of language—
and I cannot believe that the, proud aristocracy of Milan
and Venice would approve of becoming dependents of Pied-
mont, having Turin for their capital, and sending deputies
to the Piedmontese Parliament, any more than the Pied-
montese would like to be dependents of Lombardy, and to
have Milan or Venice for their capital. Great dissensions
would arise which might endanger the liberties of Pied-
mont, who might find too late that she had been no more
than the pioneer and advance guard of France, and that in
grasping at the shadow she had sacrificed the substance of
liberty. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that an attempt
should be made to unite all the minor States of Italy into
one confederation; but that would be the act of the victor—
that
would be the act of France, and whether the Prince
were native or French who was elected to reign over them, he
would require the support of the French army. And so also
would the Pope, for all his subjects to a man•would rebel
during the war nless they were kept under by a force far
superior to any that France has hitherto kept in Rome.
There would be then the substitution of one foreign domi-
nation for another, and the position of France would be more
onerous and untenable thanit is now, as she would soonlearn,
for there can be no greater mistake than to suppose that even
among the bitterest enemies of Austria there is any
other: feeling than that an armed French intervention
in Italian affairs is an evil of the greatest magnitude.
French domination would be as odious as Austrian. The
Congress could perform no more useful task than to este
blish the principle of non-interference—the principle
letting the Italian States alone. (Hear, hear.) I think the
are as well educated, as intelligent, as civilised, and as cap-
able of understanding their own interests and conducting
their own affairs as any other nation in Europe. In tie
Treaty of Paris you will find it stipulated that there shall
exist no separate right of interference in the affairs of the
Danubian Principalities, and that even in the event of the
disturbance of tranquillity there shall be no armed interven-
tion, except with the previous assent of all the allies. If my
noble friend by his eloquence and arguments can persuade
the Powers about to meet—the same Powers which secured
to the Mold°. Wallachian provinces this immunity—to
agree to place the Italian States upon the same footing, he
will have performed a service of the greatest value. (Cheers.)
I have only further to say that I hope my noble friend will
carry with him all the strength and the moral support of
this country, which he will need in what I fear he will find
a difficult task, and I can assure him that wthing
from me to embarrass him or to rob him of::that support.
My noble friend's services have lately. baen" notdo.U.sa,of to
a certain extent for party purposes by lais, frienflS, bgt;he
himself is the last man to think himsedindispeinthle :the
peace of Europe. (Hear, hear.) Probably, he. will agree
with me that the indispensable man has yet to be born—
(hear, hear)—but certainly the injudicious ardour of his
friends has not a little increased his responsibility and ex-
posed him to harsh criticism, in which, I can assure him, I
am not at all disposed to join. (Hear, hear.) His task will
be an arduous one, but I can say for myself; and for those
who sit behind me, that no spirit Of party shall prevent our
making the fullest and fairest allowance for all the diffi- ,
culties with which he may have to contend, or shall damp
the satisfaction with which we shall learn that success has
crowned his efforts. (Loud cheers.)
The Earl of DERBY—I should scarcely have risen to
take part in this conversation had I not felt it my bounden
duty to bear my testimony to the fair, candid, and impartial
speech just delivered by my noble friend— (hear, hear)—and
also to express my concurrence in the commendation which
he has bestowed on the course pursued by parties in abstain-
ing, at a time of great difficulty, from putting any questions
or originating any discussions which might tend to embarrass
the Government or to lessen the chance of the preservation
of peace. But having expressed my gratitude to my noble
friend opposite, and to Parliament generally, I wish also
to state my firm and entire conviction that if there be yet,
as I hope there may be, any chance of maintaining the
peace of Europe, the best chance is to be found in the con-
viction and the impression on all the nations of Europe that
with regard to the main principles embodied in this ques-
tion there is no difference of opinion between English par-
ties. (Cheers.) It is, therefore, with more especial grati-
fication that I have listened to the speech of my noble friend
without finding in it from beginning to end one single senti-
ment expressed, or one single principle laid down, to which

I cannot give my hearty concurrence. It is the source of
the greatest satisfaction to the Government to know that
the highest authorities are agreed upon the main principles
which have been laid down by the Government as the bases
upon which a satisfactory arrangement might be arrived at.
(Hear.) The noble lord has acquitted the Government of
any desire or intention to introduce into Congress any doubt-
ful question as to the maintenance of the treaty of 1815 ;
but, not only can there be no doubt as to the intentions of
the Government and their feelings as to the obligation of
maintaining those treaties, but my noble friend behind me,
when he laid down those four bases of negotiation on the
part of the Government, also added a fifth, which was to be
a sine qua non, that we regarded it as a condition precedent
to our acceptance of the Russian proposal, that there should
be a distinct understanding that the Congress would not in-
tertain any question of interference with the actual state of
territorial possessions, nor in any way disturb the treaties of
1815. (Hear, hear.) It is impossible for language to lay down
more distinctly that principle than it was laid down by my
11 noble friend. It was assented to by the four great Powers ;
and in the adoption of that principle I think a great service
has been done in the maintenance of peace (Hear, hear
I do not understand that the noble earl opposite objects in
the slightest degree to the various points which have been
laid down as the bases for negotiation. He has, indeed, raised
some question as to the time and mode of carrying out the
disarmament ; but, with regard to the principle, he assents
to it in the light of a guarantee for peace. He agrees to the
propriety of stipulating for the evacuation of the Roman
States by foreign armies, and in the recommendation of re-

forms in the separate States of Central Italy such as may
do away with abuses which woidd obviously endanger the
continuance of peace. My noble friend also laid consider-
able stress on the impossibility of substituting for the
treaties now existing between Austria and the Duchies
a confederation of the minor States of Italy. I trust
that this will go forth to the world and that there

will be no misrepresentation that to the maintenance
of the treaties of 1815 being a sine qua non, and to
the four principal bases on which the Congress is to enter
on its labours, and which have been accepted by all the
great Powers as just, fair, and reasonable, there is an una-

.
nunous assent on both sides of this house, and, I have no

doubt, of the other house of Parliament. (Cheers.) I will
not pretend to vindicate the precise course pursued by the
Government, nor to say that on any and every occasion
they have done exactly that which was most likely to lead
to the object they had in view; but I will venture to say
that from the commencement to the end they have inva-
riably taken that course which seemed to lead most directly
to the prevention of an outbreak in Europe, the end of
which it was impossible to foretell. (Cheers.) I believe en-
tirely with my noble friend that there would have been a
much better chance of bringing matters to a satisfactory
settlement had the original proposition made by this coun-
try been accepted, and the mediation been left in the able
hands of Lord Cowley, because during the short time that
Lord Cowley—l can hardly say was conducting nego-
tiations but—was engaged in communications with the
different parties, he actually succeeded in laying down a
basis of negotiation to which both France and Austria were
prepared to assent as calculated to lead to a satisfactory
settlement. I cannot but think that the subsequent or
rather contemporaneous offer of a general Congress made
by Russia has interposed all those difficulties which have
been found to retard agreement—in point of fact, that the
proposition for a Congress, although it was impossible for
her Majesty's Government to refuse it when once it was
made, and accepted by France, really was less likely to lead
to a speedy solution of the question than if the mediation
of Lord Cowley had been continued. My noble friend
says, that supposing all parties to be sincere, it is difficult
to account for the state of Europe. I agree with him, for
if the treaties of 1815 are to be maintained, and if an
agreement has been arrived at by the Powers prin-
cipally concerned, with regard to the questions which
alone cause any ostensible difference of opinion as to the
basis on which an amicable settlement may be arrived
at, it is difficult to account for the vastd taribncaimndeinfftesreanntd,
for the enormous preparations which are being made more
or less ostentatiously and more or less openly. I must say,
however—and it shows the importance of carefully guard-
ing words and expressions coming from persons in high
places—that I trace much of the distrust, much of the
anxiety, much of the preparation which we have to lament,
to the unfortunate words which fell from the lips of the
King of Sardinia at the opening of the PiedmontFs9
(Hear,Legie-
an d schuearinr: to
IhiniesneltfhaendKtino ghiosfeoSunardri:ua, step-
whichassumed that to that cry Sardinia coul no. -fl f those
, o
which prevailed tbxoughout
.., _
liberties,
at ur .
ping out of the legitimate course of watching over
.the troei;
sperity and welfare of his own people, consolid g t
:ten the
1 approval and support of all nations, p
es
aeuse of freedom,
which, like England, have at heart the c from Italy
spoke of the cry of anguish which came forth
and alluded to the discontent
s_ .
~