The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-29 00:00:00

elauer then
treated with scorn and derision. Baron --------"-------"--7—isproposal was made at Milan by an Atria agent, and was
if we thought Snot
authorised by his Government, brit that,
andrecoromend it at
offered another arrangement, in which husaid he was not
dinia would accept it, he would go back
would
_
Vienna. We suggested that no arrangement
ttricaLeb.;,enice
which related only,to Lombardy. At that
Would be accepted that did not
pwleasthin.revolt, defending tself agaves'
it =Mealy that any proposal t Austria, and I thought
ed favour of Austria.
altered, and the fate of war
turn
and recovered Lora-
include that State. The state of things, however, soon
raosalpreviously e feu
hardy, and therefore anythg
General Radetsky won great victor].
mad
fto
ision. we took was the sound
the ground. I hold that
te of things that existed when the
eelee right hon. gentleman is now of
proposal was made. under any circumstances to go
opinion that we ought not . that
iifa representative of
into the conference, considering
this country were ebeensithdeerinre vte7e u have only to regis-
previ,lns.ly, settled between
Now, my noble friend had
tether
nawshealtvoths.e other powers had I ' d
e t
o! he are -
that there are two completely distinct bran,.
rtuegeelent between France and Austria ; the one n7cluding„.._
the stipulations relating to Venetia and Lombardy, "le
latter having been ceded to France to save the honour ci
Austria, but being ultimately to revert to Sardinia and in
this branch, no doubt, the two parties are entitled to decide,
relating as it does to territory which has formed the subject
of the war. But there is another branch ; there were other
conditions relating to parts of Italy which the contending
armies had not occupied, and with which the contracting
parties had no authority to deal. (Hear, hear.) What,
then, my noble friend stated was, that before we adopted
any decision as to taking part in the conference, we should
wait to learn what bad been done at Zurich between France,
Austria, and Sardinia. My noble friend stated the vari-
ous difficulties that might arise in consequence of the are
rangements that had been sketched out at Villafranca with
regard to the confederation. Austria and France might pro-
pose such a confederation, but it eould not be carried out
without the consent and goodwill of all the States to which
it referred. (Hear, hear.) The difficulties, in fact, in the
way of this arrangement must strike every one. Row, for
instance, can it be expected that the representatives of Sat-
dinia and Austria will sit like Mends at the same table, or
the Pope's Nuncio, seeing that the King of Sardinia has been
excommunicated by his Holiness f (Laughter, and " No,"
from Mr. Bowyer). Not personally, it is true, but every
one who entered the Papal territory in a hostile fashionwas
excommunicated, and under that ban the Marquis d' Azeglio
entered the legations and took possession.
th It dKingoes
of not rSar-
e-
quire much logic or acumen prove that e
dinia lies under the excommunication of the Pope. (Hear,
hear.) But, even supposing actual excommunication not
to have taken place, I am sure that the hon. and learned
member for Dundalk will allow the relations between the
two Powers to be not so agreeable as to render it probable
that their respective representatives could sit at the same
board in amicable consultation. (Hear, hear.) As my
noble Mend stated, the questions of religious toleration, of
the liberty or license of the press, might arise, with the dif-
ferent degree of freedom to be accorded in political matters,
and these questions would have to be discussed at a diet at
which Austria must sit beside Sardinia, and Rome, Naples,
and Tuscany. How could they expect such a confederation
to work harmoniously? (Hear, hear.) These are our ob-
jections to the confederation, and until we see our way to
their removal it is plain that it will not be expedient for
this Government to enter into this conference. On the other
hand, if we do see our way towards moulding those general
arrangements so as to modify the existing evils, and laying
the grounds for future improvements, then I think not only
that it would be advisable, but that it would be the duty of
her Majesty's Government to use its influence in the hope
of moulding these different arrangements. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. and learned member for Dundalk has told us that
the Government of Rome is much maligned ; that it is, in
fact, one of the most improving and progressive govern-
ments in Europe. How is it, then, that for the past ten
years, but for the presence of foreign troops to preserve
order, the Roman Government would have been overthrown?
(H ear.) (" No, no," from Mr. Bowyer.) Well, the hon. and
learned gentleman may not think so, but it certainly has
been the opinion of the Roman Government itself,
(Laughter.) I suppose its members know as well as the
hon. and learned member the state of relations between
them and their subjects. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Well.
it is not in the nature of man to wish to overthrow govern-
ments without some reason. It is true that man is called
a destructive animal, but certainly not to that extent. We
find that in this country, when in 1848 some revolutionary
symptoms were exhibited, 100,000 well-disposed citizens of
London turned out and armed themselves, not with stilettoes
and swords, but with honest English bludgeons, to keep
down insurrection. Solelythrough their exertions the peaee
was as well preserved on the 10th of April as it had been
on the day before, or could be the day after. So it would
be in Rome if Rome were well governed, but the discon-
tent of the people and their distrust and want of confidence
in the Government and all that belongs to it is the most
decisive proof that Rome is not only not well governed but
that the Government of Rome is amongst the worst in the
whole civilised world. In 1831 the great Powers of Europe
gave good advice to the Government of Rome. It was said,
I am aware, that the Protestant Powers should not inter-
fere to give advice to the ecclesiastical Government of Rome ;
still in 1831 that objection did not prevent England, Prussia,
and Russia, and other nations from joining with France
and Austria in recommending to the Government of Rome
certain changes and improvements, which if they had been
adopted at the time would have saved years of misfortune
and difficulty, and many other evils which have since fallen
upon Italy. (Hear.) I do not see why the same cause
should not again, when the proper occasion presents itself, be
followed by those Powers. And if the united voice of Europe
should have any weight with that excellent Government—
that Government which, according to the hon. and learned
gentleman is so well disposed, so beloved by its subjects, in
smoothing away its difficulties and inducing it to go a
little faster—l do not see any reason why some useful
advice should not be given. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. and learned gentleman does not believe a statement
made by my noble Mend as to the number of people in
Naples and in others of the Italian states, who are under
the surveillance of the police. I am sure my noble friend
would not state anything that was not based upon good in-
formation, and as the fact which he has stated is well
founded, I say that of itself is strong proof of the degree in
which the governments of those countries render wretched
those unfortunate people who are subject to their sway.
(Hear, hear.) And when it is said that we are the advocates
and encouragers of revolution in Italy, I reply that it is not
we that are the advocates and promoters of revolution, but
those governments whedi§trust their people, and drive them
to resort to dark conspiracies, and those other crimes which
men who have no other hope are often led into to relieve
themselves from the calamities and sufferings which they
are condemned to endure. The right hon. gentleman says
that my noble friend taunted him with having cleated the
idea of Italian liberty with a sneer. He did nothing of the
kind; but the right bon. gentleman retorts that my noble
friend is always under the delusion that in Italy as in Eng-
land there was a great whig party. That is perfectly true.
There is a great constitutional party in Italy, as there is in
this country, which has made way year after year against
the party that is opposed to liberty, and being numerically
the more powerful, must continue to make progrees. But
the similitude between Italy and England is even greater
than according to the right hon. gentleman my noble friend
represents it to be. Not only is there a great Whig party in
Italy, but there is also a great Tory party there. (Hear.)
That Tory party happens to be the party in the Government,
and it is the conflict between the great Whig majority and
the Tory minority that is in power, that-is the cause of all
the difficulties and all the evils to which Italy is exposed.
Unfortunately there the resemblance ceases, for Italy not
having the advantage of constitutional government, though
the Whig party are the majority, they have had no means
of carrying a vote of want of confidence in the Government
(a laugh)—and were consequently still writhing under the
arbitrary power of the governing minority. (Hear, hear.)
Under these circumstances we naturally feel that sympathy
which the right hon. gentleman no doubt ridicules • we do
feel sympathy with the constitutional party in Italy, and
frankly avow that we shotild be glad to see a constitutional
government established in that country, and that rational
freedom insured upon which alone the safety of a nation
depends. (Hear, hear.) Then I say that we have not yet
come to any decision in the direction of the conference, nor
can any decision be come to until it is known more com-
pletely what are the proposals to be made at Zurich, and
how far the parties may propose to deal with matters that
they have no real authority to deal with, and how far they
will leave open to their allies other matters upon which,
although they may have no power to pronounce a decision,
they are at least entitled to recommend and to notice. But
the right hon. gentleman may rest satisfied that we shall
not go into any conference with the view of carrying out
those embarrassing arrangements which he deprecates. At
the same time I must say that the course which the right
hon. gentleman and his friends now take is not very con-
sistent with that which they took before the war broke
out, and when they were in office. (Hear.) Then they
advocated a congress, though now condemning a conference,
and although the one was proposed before the war actually
began, and the other is proposed after hostilities have
ceased, that does not constitute, as far as I can see, any
valid objection. A conference usually follows a treaty of
peace, to settle and modify arrangements which, if left in-
complete, would probably lead to the renewal of war. But,
says the right hon. gentleman, "do not go into this con-
ference and embarrass this country with any prospective en-
gagements." Excellent advice. If you refer to the blue-
books you will see the right hon. gentleman and his friends
were ready to guarantee Sardinia for five years from any hos-
tile attack. (Hear.) Now, if there can be a prospective en-
gagement that would' be all but certain to embarrass this
country it was that. If the contemplated attack was to come
upon Sardinia from some power over which you exercised a
controlling influence, well and good ; and though you might
have measured the expense and counted the damage, you
might have set against these disadvantages the advantages
to be gained on the other side, and upon the balance you
might have said, "It is a hazardous undertaking, but we
feel that we can fulfil it." But how would the right hon.
gentleman have fulfilled such an engagement so as to pie-
vent Austria from attacking Sardinia ? Would he have sent
an army to Genoa to assist the Sardinians, or would he
have sent a naval force to attack Venice ? (Cheers.) But
the right hon. gentleman will tell us, no doubt, that it was
not an engagement to be entered into by England, but by
England and France conjointly. That was, that we were
to be parties to the guarantee, but France was to bear the
burden of furnishing the army. But the French Govern-
ment very naturally said, "We will not enter into any
such guarantee;" and the engagement fell to the ground.
f merely mention this to show that while we are told to
abstain from taking part in the conference by those
who urged and were ready to take part in the congress,
when we are warned from entering into embarrassing
engagements—those who press that advice upon us were
themselxes ready to enter into prospective engagements of
a nature which could not have but occasioned embarrass-
ments whenever they were required to he fulfilled. Our
wish is simply the well-being of Italy. We think it is a
country deserving offreedom ; it is a country endowed with
every gift of nature, and requires but good government to
make it one of the happiest countries in the world. The
hon. gentleman says the Italians are not like ourselves—
that we must not treat Italians as we would treat English-
men—that we must not expect public opinion can be called
forth in Italy as in England. unfortunately that is too
true ; but there is no reason why Italy should not be treated
as England—there is no reason why Italians should not be
capable of appreciating the seam institutions and attaining
Drought
to the same state of happiness with which Providence has
should 13,
run"ed ; and if the great Europa powers by any ar-
rangements by whieb. 'the Governments that may be
iato eowneunieation for that purpose may devise
enabledcf tod produce such a result, they will de:: rye
the re all who value the peace and laeppiness of the
world. (I,ecar.)
_ Mr. H. B4ILLIE said that the interference of this
country in the awai,,
minated disadvantageaaurt other countries had always ter-
that had been seen. 6,l'hf''r In Austria tspecially
revolution which the noble
lord opposite (Lord Palmerston)
had excited et Florence
ended disastrously for the litl)
iavnt
.ian the streets of
had
o.oen an Englis.Faarn
,iiang themselves, while we
became such as
lorenee, area our relations with
vEeilugrieohnetvctetto travel in
to render it o,llaodt ons9sitbl,eonfeeori
that empire. Ife eottai
grounds,
therefore, we should In fl 4 Y t 9 4tteigi this congress.