The Sun.
London, England, 1859-11-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY_EVENING, NOVEMBER 23, 1859.

No. 21,035.

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the court. They thought that the operations of !
the court should be siniplffied, and -that the official
assignce should not necessarily be the person to
administer the estate: Then they thought that
after the first procebditirin bankruptcy the credi-
tors should be able to take their cases into the
County Court, making no siipulation of any sort as
to the value of the estate. The other leading
principle was that they theught. that the punish-
ment of fraudulent debtors should be more stringent
than at present. lie did itof think that the mer-
cantile interests would evitt support any bill which
did not embody those priiples. He denied that
this was a legal questioti. On the contrary, he
held that it was a comnitrcial and economical ques-
tion ; and it was on that ground that the deputa-
tion had waited upon the Prime Minister instead of
upon the Lord Chancellor. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. INfoRLEY said that the feeling of the mer-
chants in the city of London coincided with the
statements made by Mr. Hastings. It was a com-
mercial and not a legal question, and if the Govern-
ment consulted Lincoln's-irin and the Temple in-
stead of the city they would find their path beset
with difficulties. •
"'After some remarks frotn Mr. Hadfield, M.P.,
Mr. Miller, M.P., and the representatives of several
Chambers of Commerce,
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government would
feel very much obliged to the deputation for com-
ing from so many.important centres of commerce to
consult him 'upon the subject, and to give the Go-
vernment their opinion as to the defects of the pre-
sent law, as well as to propose a remedy which it
would be expedient to apply to those defects. No•
body could over-estimate the importance Of the
ogater.to.which. thesdeputiatm. had called his at-
tention, because, in a great commercial country like
this, where so large an amount of people depended
upon commercial transactions, and where the pros-
perity and resources of the country were so much af-
fected by those transactions, it must be evident
that it was of the utmost national importance that
they should be regulated upon principles of equity
and proper despatch. The matter had•occupied the
attention of leading. men in this country for some
time. He could not undertake to promise that Lord
John, Russell would in the next session undertake
the matter, for those who read the daily news-
papers and saw what was passing in every quarter
of the globe knew that his lordship had enough
upon his hands connected with his department
without embarrassing himself with other ques-
tions. The gentlemen of the deputation saw on
his left hand the Attorney-General, who was a
most able champion of the commercial interests
in these matters, and when they urged that this
was a commercial and not a legal question it
occurred to him that, though it might be commer-
cial in its operation, they would be none the worse
off for having the assistance of legal men in the
concoction and consideration of a measure to carry
out the purposes they had in view. He could
assure them that this matter had engaged the
earnest attention of the Goverment. More ihan

that it would be inexpedient on his part to enter
into, for he could not go into details. The Attorney
General would tell them that it was the intention
of himself and his legal colleagues to, deal with this
matter. He (Lord Palmerston) had every reason
to believe that a satisfactory arrangement would be
entered into with regard to this matter. (Hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, who was most enthu-
siastically received, said—Gentlemen, I can assure
you it has been to me a source of great pleasure to
attend this meeting on the invitation of my noble
friend. I can also assure you that the important
matters you hav6 placed before his lordship's con-
sideration have been for a long time the subjects of
my most anxious attention. It has also, as he has
told you, engaged the attention of my noble friend.
Indeed, he has gone so far as to direct the attention
and of my legal colleagues, gentlemen practically
acquainted with the whole question, to the prepara-
tion of a measure likely to satisfy the reasonable
wants of the commercial community, and he has
placed us in communication with that portion of
his Government which has special charge of all
such matters ; and we, let me add, have lest no
time in examining the question, and getting the
intended measure into a state of preparedness to be
submitted to the anxious consideration and,deter-
mination of the Cabinda- (Heal, hear.)- ,What tiutt
determination may be I cannot take upon myself to
say, but I may tell you what are my own individual
views, in the spirit of which the bill is being pre-
pared ; but I beg that you may be kind enough
to remember that I merely state my individual
views, or what at e at present the impressions
on my own mind, although these may, before the
bill passes through the Legislature, receive con-
siderable modifications. Still, it may be satisfac-
tory to the gentlemen present to a certain that be-.
tween their views and mine there is no material
difference. (Hear, hear.) I ee with you that
this subject is not to be regard as purely and ex-
clusively one of a legal character, but that it is one
in which commercial interests are chiefly involved,
and that it should be so disposed of that the law of
bankruptcy and insolvency may be brought into
harmony with the convictions and feelings of the
commercial community, and the whole system of
its administration based upon their interests and
made consistent with the principles of justice. In
fact, gentlemen, your opinions ought to be em-
bodied in the law. (Hear.) I entirely disapprove
of adding to the present number of enactments upon
the subject, and also of that part of the present
system which leaves large and important commer-
cial districts without a competent commercial tri-
bunal. Since I entered Parliament, it has ever
been my aim, so far as my humble efforts could go,
to reduce the whole body of our laws into a state
of simplicity, order, and consistency, but in our
bankruptcy laws as they now stand there is neither
simplicityndilloga norl
distinctions
order.
l between e ntl yw
eoepni ntiroande traders ande
foolishno n.
traders ought to be abolished, and addressing my-
and illogical
my-
self to the task before me I have come to that de-
termination. (Hear, hear.) Another matter on
which I have an individual feeling is that a few
simple tests ought to be laid down on the existence
of which the creditors would be entitled to take
possession of the property of the insolvent for
equal distribution. (Hear, hear.) I think that
the Court, in the interim, that is, up to the time
of the adjudication, should, by its officials, take
care to preserve and protect the property for
them, and that for that purpose, and for that
purpose only, some official person, be he official
assignee, or call him by what name you please,
should be employed, but from the moment
that the insolvency is declared I consider the
property of the bankrupt to be the property of his
creditors, and that they are the best judges of how
it ought to be administered. (Hear, hear.) You
must, however, in this matter not lose sight of ex-
perience. There are many in this room who can
remember what took place before 1831. I am sorry
to say that I am old enough to do so. I can well
remember that prior to that period there were very
great complaints made by the commercial com-
munity of the want of some system of bankrupt
administration. Indeed, your present complaints
are not louder; but let us from their result draw
some kind of lesson and caution. You then sur-
rounded the Government of the day with your
complaints, and the result was the introduction of
that cumbrous reform which you are now wishing
to have removed. You were, in fact, overloaded
with a cumbrous machinery which interferes with
your interest, and your anxiety now is to get rid of
that very thing which was introduced to meet a
similar anxiety. I only mention this to show how
necessary it is for you to proceed with caution with
respect to the object which you have in hand. My
opinion is, that it is entirely unnecessary to overlay
the proceedings with the expense of officials, and -I
think it monstrous that they should feed on the
property of the creditors. After the property has
passed over to the creditors, and that who are the
creditors has been ascertained, for which purpose
judicial interference will be still necessary, they
ought, as 1 thi ik, to have the utmost facility of
administering the estate, and of withdrawing it from
the interference of the Court, if they should think
it necessary, that interference being only required
to compel a complete disclosure of the bankrupt's
property—(hear, hear)—and, let me add, to direct
criminal proceedings when it is apprehended that
there has been anything like concealment. I quite
concur with the deputation that the criminal law
with respect to fraudulent bankrupts ought to be
made as stringent as is compatible with the spirit
of our criminal' law generally, and also that it,
should be administered by the ordinary tribunals of
the country. I have mentioned to you only the
general principles of the measure I am preparing,
but the completion of it will be to me the subject
of the most careful attention. That measure, so
far as it has grown to completeness under my
hands, has been based on the views I have men-
tioned to you, and embadies the advice which we
have received from seve:al quarters. When ready
for legislation it will be submitted to the Cabinet
and fully considered, and, so far as the expression
of my own opinion will be a sufficient assurance,
you may rely that its consideration will be ap-
proached, not with a view of protecting or consult-
ing, legal interests, but to make the measure satis-

factory to the great trading interests of this coun-
try. To me it will be not only a pleasure but a
great benefit if the gentlemen who are here from
different parts of the country will favour me with
writing to me their views ; I shall be most happy
to receive them, and I hero engage myself to con-
sider and attend to them, and I hope the result
of my labours will prove that your demands have
been responded to by her Nhjesty's Government.
I should be glad, too, if you would favour me with
suggestions for a system of bankruptcy suited to
our colonies and dependencies, some of which—
China, for instance—are wholly destitute of any-
thin.. of the kind.
Mr.' HASTINGS remarked that a bill such as the
learned gentleman had sketched to them, would
meet the views and secure the support of the com-
mercial community, who did not regard Sir Richard
Bethell as a lawyer (Sir R. Bethell, " Thank you,"
—great laughter)—they regarded him as a great
and philosophical statesman.
The deputation then withdrew.

MR. GRIFFITH, M.P., ply 2IIE ITALIAN

Q UESTION.

(From the Devizes Gazette.)

Pursuant to a notice in our last, a fully attended
meeting assembled at the appointed hour of 8 p.m
in the Assembly-room of the Town Hall, Devizes,
last Tuesday, to hear from Mr.. Darby Griffith a nar-
rative of his recent visit to Italy,and his views at large,
founded thereupon, relative to open diplomatic
questions. Judging from the appearance of the
unusually crowded gathering we should infer that
tho ladies of Devizes feel a warm interest in the-

subject, as they mustered very strong—occupying
cforOnsmi dheiis•at ioof
Transalpinethe
travels,hon.
w gentleman,as
nearly all the front and reserved seats ; and the
rwerotunitmededdelicately
just
shown in the exordium of his address, which seemed
well adapted to a mixed company of old and young,
with the latter of whom a historical and clas-
sical retrospective glance, by way of clearing the
ground, was perhaps not less useful than to that
other class of a miscellaneous audience, who, en-
grossed for the most part in business avocations,
find it convenient to be occasionally " posted up" in
such details. Mr. Griffith therefore said truly and
wisely that it neither required apology nor explana-
tion that the people of England take a lively and an
impartial interest in the well being and prosperity of
Italy,—for to every educated person the ben eti tofour
own intellectual improvement and advancement,
which have been derived from Italy, must suggest a
debt of gratitude to that remarkable country. Our
earliest studies (said the hon. gentleman) are found-
ed upon a familiarity with the history and language
of that potent race, who, having raised themselves
to the very highest degree of political and military
power, not content with the comparatively narrow
limits of that beautiful Peninsula, carried their con-
quest of arms over almost every country of the
globe, and reduced even these our own compara-
tively remote islands—penitus divisos ab orbe Bri-
tannos ; " detached (wrote Virgil) from the other
earth—under imperial sway."
After the decadence and the final break-up of the system
of universal domination possessed by Rome for so many cen-
turies, the reaction of an era of anarchy and darkness over-
spread the world. The fierce tribes of the North, now un-
restrained, rushed down upon the fair plains and devene-
rate populations of Italy, injuring and destroying all of arts
and literature that fell in their way, and reducing the popu-
lation to the lowest condition of subservience and degrada-
tion. . Out of these wild and ferocious tribes, the German
empire became gradually •eonsolidated, and retained eonsi
dorable power and influence in Italy. About the
same time the successor of "the Fisherman of Gali-
lee," of the Apostle St. Peter, bethought him that
there appeared no obstacle to his . erecting a tempo-
ral dominion, the secular power of which might well
be supported and maintained by pretensions of a spirit-
ual character, which he was now able to persuade Christen-
dom to acknowledge as being• infallible and universal; and
between him and the Emperor of Germany there were fre-
quent contests for power, generally terminated for a time by
hollow truces, celebrated by the exhibition of all the gorge
ous magnificence of catholic rites. Amid these contentions
many families of native princes rose into importance, and
acquired possessions, the Visconti and Sforza of Milan, the '
D'Estes of Ferrara, the Gonzaga of Mantua, the Medici
of Florence, besides the Republics of Venice and Genoa.
And though these smaller States were seldom on good
terms, but were generally intriguing and fighting against
one another, yet the period oftkee local governments may
be considered to have been life flourishing on-the whole
for the liberties of Italy during any part •bf its modern
history, and the comparative freedom meanwhile enjoyed
promoted the cultivation of literature and the arts to an ex--
tent probably never exceeded during any era of the _intel-
lectual history of the world. (Cheers.) . .
This divided condition of Italy did not escape the notice
of a nation so ambitious as France' and therefore from
Charles VIII. and Francis 1., to the Republic end :Nape:
leon„every dynasty and government in Franco has been
ready to find some good
.reason for marching troops into
Italy, and for raising some claim to her territory=in 'which
she has generally encountered a rival in the prevailing
German Power of the day. This state of things has
essentially continued nearly unaltered to the present day.
For many years back Austria has used persevering efforts
to acquire dominion in Italy, and at a more or less greater
interval her great rival France has made convulsive efforts
to oust her from those plains. (Hear, hear.) Thus Napo-
leon.conquered all of Northern Italy from Austria; but on
his fall the whole of her former possessions were given back
to her, together with Venice, of which the Republic had
fallen under Napoleon. Nevertheless much of the early
civilisation of the world was due to Italy ; most of the
manufactures of the middle ages were carried on success-
fully there at an early period. You remember that the
best armour was made at Milan ; the description of Mar-
mien by Walter Scott, is no doubt familiar to you—
" Well was he armed from head to heel,
In mail and plate of Milan steel."
And to show what a comely figure he made—
" But his strong helm, of mighty cost,
Was all with burnished gold embossed ;
Blue was the charger's broidered rein,
Blue ribbons docked his shining mane,
The Knightly housing's ample fold
Was velvet blue, and trapped with gold."
(Applause.)

After a familiar and ingenious review of some of the na-
tural features and language of Italy—tracing many Eng-
lish proper names and common phrases amongst ourselves
to Italian derivatives—pointing out the similarity of Lom-
bardy in its products and some other picturesque features
to the Gallia Cisalpina of Virgil, 1800 years ago, Mr. G.
glanced at the literature of Italy, ancient and modern.
That this beauteous land, he added, which the Appenines
divide, and the sea and the Alps surround, F ossessing na-
tural barriers so clearly definad, and united by uniformity
of language, should never have been able to secure a na-
tional and independent existence--an achievement which
some baneful external influence, jealous of its prosperity
and interested in its degradation, has been so sften exerted
to prevent—tempts one to exclaim with Byron—
t‘ Italia, oh Italia I—thou who !last
The fatal gift of beauty, which became
A funeral dower of present woes, and past •
On thy sweet brow is sorrow ploughed by shame,
And annals graved in charactersrof flame.
Oh, God, that thou wert in thy nakedness
Less lovely, or more powerful, and could'st claim
The might to awe the Robbers back, who press
To shed thy blood, and drink the tears of thy distress."
(Warm applause)

In treating (at greater length—though lucidly,
and in a clear familiar style—than we have room to
report) of the present questions rcl ding to Italy,
Mr. Griffith among other remarkP, observed that--
_ _

In order properly to understand its successive positions—
unfortunately so much involved—it was necessary to place
our minds in the situation in which events stood at its first
commencement. For the sake of brevity (said the hon.
gentleman) we will make our beginning with what occurred
on the Ist Jan. of this year, when the Emperor of the
French, at the diplomatic reception on New Year's Day,
said to Baron Hubner, the Austrian Ambassador, that " he
regretted that his relations with Austria were not so cordial
as heretofore," which was of course taken as a serious inti-
mation of alienation, and which produced a strong effect on
the public mind of Europe.
Now when this warning note was sounded, what was the
intention of Austria f Sho was in possession' by treaties
of 1815, of 'Venetia and Lombardy, to which, it was ac-
knowledged on all hands, that she had an indefeasible title,
not open to be impugned by any authority in Europe
This being so, what was the complaint made against her?
Why it was, that beyond her rights by treaty as above
mentioned, she had insisted on extending her influence over
States that ought to have been independent, nay, over the
whole of Italy, and particularly in protecting the rulers of
those States against any movement on the part of their
subjects which might have been excited by bad govern-
ment or despotic measures, in which they might have in-
dulged. ([leer,
hear.) Treaties were entered into by
Austria I with Parma, Modena,- and Tuscany, em-
powering the former to march troops into these territo-
ries whenever invited by their unpopular rulers. The for-
tress of Piacenza, which was in Parma, close to the flan
of the Piedmontese territory, was occupied and enlarged
by Austria, contrary to every public law that regulates
the conduct of nations; and in every way the demea-
nour of Austria was that of a power holding unlimited
sway over the minor States of Italy, and surrounding
and threatening the independence of Sardinia in a most)
offensive and dangerous manner. (Hear, hear.) But in
all this you will observe, offensive as it undoubtedly was on
the part of Austria, the demands that could properly be
made by diplomacy were very limited. Austria could only
be asked, with due observance of treaty and national
rights, to discontinue her system of interference with the
affairs of the smaller States of Italy, to introduce some re-
forms in the internal condition of her own States, such as
should prevent turbulent demonstrations of discontent,' and
to confine her influence and operations within her own ter-
ritory, guaranteed to her by treaty. Accordingly, when
the British Foreign Minister found himself called upon to
take some notice of the threatening state of events between
France and Austria, his hands were entirely tied in the
sense of recognising the property rights of Austria, and he
could only adopt that tone of conciliation and mitigation of
the existing evils which did not empower him to hold out
any definite and effective alternative in case of his repre-
sentations failing to produce any effect—he was in fact
confined to endeavouring to persuade, instead of attempt-
ing to command. That this was the view taken by all
political leaders, however differing in party-views, may be
proved by the remarks of Lord Palmerston on the first day
of the meeting of Parliament in January last, in which you