The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-18 00:00:00

NGE.-(THIS DAY.)

Leghorn
Genoa
.
Venice
aplcs 4034
Palermo per oz. 121
Li,bon s6ts,
Oporto
Rio Janeiro 36
Bahia
Buenos Ayres
Dublin, 21 days' sight l6
Cork 134

25 95

PRICE OF BULLION, PER OZ,
Portugal Gcicl, coin £0 Q 0
Foreign Gold, in bars 3 17 9

New Doubloons
New Dollars 0 0 0

Silver, bars, standard 0 4 IIN

TTIE, PARLIAMENT.

(THIS EVENING.)

110 USE OF COMMONS.
(Debate on the .‘ Cruelty to Animals Bill," Continued from
our First Edition.)
Mr,',PRI/ME (seriously)—Mr. Speaker, I made no joke of
---sprezt laughter.) I did it in the usual form.
F• TRENCH had come down to the House for the
n of nviking an observation or two upon the Bill brought
he‘'Y the Hun. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Buckingham); and
mwm surp.riged to find it passed over in silence.
UCKING HAM informed the Hon. Member that the
bow' ol' "4" been disposed of before his arrival. He intended,
" next Session, to introduce another to the same effect.
kr 10 PUBLIC CHARITIES.
T ILRS moved the House go into Committee on the
br'e,eharities Bill.
10WRING hoped the Bill would not be pressed on.
notice • VARBURTON gave the Hon. Member (Mr. Wilks)
the chta,3niat should oppose- the motion for the Speaker leaving
Mr
reas • 4' IL'KS hoped the Hon. Member would give some
r adopting such a course.
r* ARI3URTON said, had the worthy Alderman (Mr.
bestc)d) been present, he should have at once proposed the
rl°rlfirrient of the Committee to that day six months, but
gene:l.l.oA it would be an uucourtcous proceeding in his ab-
NV!I' TOOKE declared that he had heard Mr. Alderman
It say that he did not wish to press this Bill.--( Hear.)
tee l,as understood that the Motion for going into Commit-
I,ns Postponed till Thursday.
pas Zed Prisons Regulation Bill was read a third time and
•

71, SPECIAL CONSTABLES' BILL.
R er4 -ri Special Constables' Bill went through Committee, the
orl''"t t
Was brought up by Mr. BERNAL, and the Bill was
e
-ed to be read a third time to-morrow.
ST. MARGARET'S RECTORY BILL.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the St. Mar-
,,,llltret's Rectory Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
-cmunitted to-morrow.
CHARITY COMMISSION BILL.
,a4Pe SOLICITOR-GENERAL brought up the Report
Dill
Charity Commission Bill, which was received, and the
4'ilt was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
BANKRUPTS' ESTATE BILL.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved that the House
tree to the Lords' amendments on this Bill.
After some observations from Mr. Tooke, the Solicitor-Ge-
1, Mr. Warburton, and Mr. Pr) me,
el r' .'z WARBUILTON proposed a verbal amendment to the
On
,which was then put and agreed to.
the, next clause being read,
Ur. I°ol..{E would again repeat the objections he had
acai'3 t°
giving the power of fine and imprisonment to two
tempt nal C:ommissioners, instead of referring the case of con-
w-4 t° tlve Court of Review, which being a superior Court
inrrsii?tl ely to be influenced its adjudication by the feel-
the c. .tiose more immediately interested. He should take
of the House upon the question, as he thought it an
)4rat,t)!l on the liberty of the subject.
the pause
ARBURTON differed from the Hon. Member as
7:would innovation on the liberty of the subject,
Air, support the clause.
ist:',7,:abieltin'N‘arnlLDE thought some misapprehension
be riled l'Poo what really was a contempt of Court. It would
'what (ItostiruProper to limit the power of the Commissioners to
Court -°' Of „Place in the hearing of the Court. Contempt of
hattieq very aggravated nature might occur without the
would bzlr'g in the immediate neighbourhood of it, and it
most unwise to limit the power of the Commis-
Mr,
I cases.
gr°with. 4S observed that constructive contempts were
u
41c ti-o° ,"'-u an evil, which should be met and suppressed.
graet,Pt there was nothing objectionable in the powers
Tp4e 0Y the clause.
other clauses were then put and agreed to.
oTONNAGE ADMEASUREMENT BILL.
e motion of Mr. P. THOMPSON, the Tonnage Ad-
"'"rement Bill was read a third time and passed.
Customsll4e.
CUSTOMS ACTS.
ihe L brought up the Report of the Committee
Acts Bill.
th TIMBER DUTIES BILL.
thro,,„4, muliun of Mr. P. THOMPSON, this Bill went
"8" ‘-onwnittee, and was read a third time.
Oa 1, SPIRIT LICENSES BILL.
1.. c motion of F. BARING, this Bill was read a
1)., . r.
tun; and ordered to be committed to-morrow.
CLERK OF THE CROWN BILL.
On the motion of Mr. BARING this Bill was committed.
INSOLVENT DEBTORS' FUND BILL.
On the motion of the same HON. GENTLEMAN this Bill was
read a second time ; as was also the Exchequer Bills Bill.
= FORGERIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the Motion of the LORD ADVOCATE this Bill was
read a second time; as was also the Court of Exchequer
(Scotland) Bill.

-LARCENIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion that the Report be brought up,
Mr. G. F. YOUNG rose and said he wished to put a ques-
tion to the President of the Board of Trade. He had en-
deavoured to be in the House when the Tonnage Admeasure-
tient Bill was read a third time, and had left the York Com-
7nittee several times for that purpose. He bad missed it how-
ever, and he now wished to ask whether the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had any objection to laying on the table the Report of
the Committee on which this Bill was founded?
r. P. THOMPSON—The Report was already on the
table of the House. It bad been laid on the table last year,
lard this Bill was the same as the one that had been postponed
Myr. ear.
YOUNG—Then will the Right Hon. Gentleman allow
it to be printed ? From personal trial, he found it impossible
to carry into effect the provisions of the Bill that had been
carried through the House.
he port, we believe, was ordered to be printed, and the
Report of the Larcenies (Ireland) Bill was brought up.
SHERIFFS' (IRELAND) BILL.
u
Mr. O'LOGHLEN, on moving that the Report be brought
p. took occasion to refer to a certain clause in the Bill,
meCh'ing compensation (as we understood) to the Chief Re-
membrancer, Mr. Blake. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
read a letter; but from the low tone of voice in which ho
.P°l,-.0, we found it impossible to catch the meaning of it. We
believe, however, it was a letter from Mr. Blake, declining to
aceept of any compensation.
tjThe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
siat the letter was in the highest degree creditable to Mr.
112. ke, and it was gratifying to him to have that opportunity
of so expressing his opinion. It got rid of a great difficulty
In the way of the Bill, and would prevent inconvenience to
the public service.
‘_Lord MORPETH said, that the intention expressed by
faoirrl.neßrllaykeexipnrtelstissed.
bi. letter was precisely similar to what he had
.Mr. JACKSON bore testimony to the character, caps-
lities, and talents of Mr. Blake.
CONSTABULARY FORCE.—IRELAND.
MORPETH brought up the Report.
'no House then went into Committee on the Constabulary
t erect in Ireland Bill.
Coleuel PE RCEYAL could not help rising to express his
uthni.raßli:fined approbation at the greater portion of the details of
th'el:At this declaration considerable surprise was manifested in
"lilltenenees of the Members bpth on the Ministerial and

Opposition benches. An lion. Member on the latter, re-
minded the Speaker of what he had Just said.
Colonel PERCEVAL—(after a pause)=Disapprohation I
meant.—(Laughter.) I have made a k•ery great mistake, and
and I do not wonder it the Noble Lord (Morpeth)
looking at me so very hard.—(Loud laughter.) He
should like to know on what grounds the Government at-
tempted to degrade the unpaid and independent magistracy of
Ireland by depriving them of the power of selecting the police
—a duty for which no men were more competent, being men
of property, and interested in the peace and well-being of the
country? Why should these men be set aside, and thht power
transferred to some creature of the Lord Lieutenant? Ac-
cording to the present Bill, they were to have inspectors for
each county, and separate paymasters. He admitted one-half
of the expense of that was to be paid out of the consolidated
fund, but the other half was to be paid by the county. Again,
there was to be one inspector, not less than four sub•inspectors,
and not less than six chief constables, or more thanlB. At present
they had only four chief constables, and one inspector who acted
as paymaster. Ile challenged the Noble Lord to state any
ground for this measure, which would have the effect of in-
flicting double the present expence on all the counties in
Ireland. In his opinion the Bill was absurd throughout ; the
whole control was given to the Lord-Lieutenant, and he might
exercise the capricious authority that was given him as he
chose. There was an oath appended to the Bill, which he
wished to know from the Noble Lord whether it was intended
to operate in aid of that oppression which bad hitherto
been exercised towards Orangemen, and whether all men
belonging to Orange societies were to be called upon
to take that oath before they entered into the police ? He
wished to know whether that oath was intended as a trap to
catch them, in order that they might be punished as the then
at Ross were ?

Lord MORPETH thought with the Hon. and 'Gallant
Member, that second thoughts were generally best ; but he
considered that the Hon. and Gallant Member had taken a
most erroneous course when he altered his first impression in
favour of the Bill. The Honourable and Gallant Member
had asked whether his Majesty's Government intended by...this
Bill to pass any slur upon the general body of the magMeacy
and the police force in Ireland. He begged to assure the
Hon. and Gallant Member that his Majesty's Government
had no such intention or motive, nor had they brought for-
ward the Bill with any such design. He admitted the po-
lice force of Ireland to be on the whole a valuable institution,
contributing largely to the public peace and welfare ; but there
was a general want of control in its management, and
there were many imperfections about it which, if brought un-
der strict control, would make it much more serviceable.
With respect to the Magistrates, his Majesty's Government,
in doing what they had done by the present Bill, were only
following an example which in many counties had been sot by
the Magistrates themselves, who had voluntarily resigned
their power, believing that it would be exercised much more
to the public good by the highest ani most responsible
quarter—the Government of the country.—( Hear, hear.)
It was well known that the constabulary force in Ireland
was divided into four portions, according to the provinces, with-
out any head, and all the finance and internal arrangements
were thrown upon the Under Secretary, who had duties
enough otherwise to perform. It was for this reason that the
Government proposed to appoint one Inspector General, re-
siding at Dublin Castle, instead of the four provincial Inspec-
tors General. Their salaries amounted to 5,4321., while that
of the new Inspector General and his Deputy would be only
1,6001. It was also proposed to appoint an inspector_ for each
county, and to entrust the duty of paymaster and store-keeper
to a clerk, with a salary of 1001., but these salaries
were all subject to the opinion of the House in Com-
mittee. It was not intended to interfere with the
existing police force, and the Lord Lieutenant would have a
power of increasing that force when occasion required it. He
was opposed to any increase on the burdens of the people ;
and it would be seen that the expense of tlig. proposed force
would not exceed that of the present one.'llP-He estimated it
thus. Under the contemplated plan, the salary of the In-
spector would be I,oool.—the Sub-Inspector, 600/,—lnspectors
of Counties, 11,9001.—Thirty-two Paymasters and Clerks,
3,2ool.—Eighty Sub- Inspectors, 7,4001.—Tw0 hundred and
fifty-six Chief Constables, 12,5001.—And besides this there
would be a subsidiary force, whose pay would amount to about
1,6871. The whole forming a total of 41,200/. ; while the
expense of the system as at present constituted was 44,2391.
But the largest reduction, and that from which he hoped, to
derive the most beneficial results, was from the Superannuatim
Fund that be proposed to introduce.—( Hear, hear.) The
Gallant Member (Colonel Perceval) had adverted to the
oath proposed to be taken by the police-officers, and from the
stress which he laid on the oath, it would appear that it had
most excited his anger. It seemed to him (Lord M.) that
the very words of the oath signified that it was not to have a
retrospective tendency. The officer is to swear that he
" does not now belong to, and will not join any secret
or political society whatever." No one, therefore, could
complain, as unless he was prepared to take the oath he need
not present himself. If any Orangeman was at present an
officer, he would have an opportunity of considering whether
he should remain in the police or retire from it, but if he did
not choose to leave such secret societies, he would be debarred
from keeping his station in the police force.—( Cheers.
And surely when the Noble and Gallant Member told
them that there were few recruits for the army or
the police that did not belong to secret or political societies,
and when lie saw the hazarkl that these societies were to the
peace and good-will that ought to prevail in Ireland—(Loud
cheers)—surely it was time to look to the state of the Army.—
( Loud cheers. )—The police ought not to have a suspicious cha-
racter among those whose peace they were to-protect, or if they
thought—no matter how erroneously—that they were leagued in
societies contrary to their interests, and that they existed only to
exert an injurious supremacy over them. Respecting the case
of New Ross, the police were, dismissed from the service be-
cause they declined to answer questions which were put to
them, and not because they ,belonged to Orange Lodges.
They refused to answer questions that were put to them is
the course of an enquiry which it was thought by the Govern-
ment to be incumbent on them to prosecute. He would not
offer any further observations on the general character of the
Bill, but there were certain points which he would be very
ready to discuss at the proper time.
Mr. F. SHAW contended that the effect of this Bill would
be to vest immense power and patronage in the hands of the
Irish Government, and to supersede the Magistracy of the
country. He did not object to there being one Inspector to
the whole police force, but he wished to make some observa-
tions respecting the second clause—that relating to County In-
spectors, which appeared to him to be a most important clause.
They were to have Inspectors for every county, and these
were to take forthwith the oath taken by Justices, and, there-
fore, to become Justices of the Peace. If this were so,
dud they were to have salaried justices of the peace, these
inspectors would virtually supersede the unpaid magistracy,
and this introduced, in his opinion, a most impolitic principle.
There would be no saving of expense, but even if it did, they
would be obliged to purchase it at too dear a rate. Ile
thought it a very dangerous and unconstitutional principle
respecting the oath proposed to be takers. The Noble Lord
had let out what had led to the adoption of that oath. It was
to exclude Orangemen.—(Lord Morpeth—" All party
men.") He did not think so. The Noble Lord had said
that if an Orangeman were to present himself, he must be pre-
pared to leave all secret societies. Respecting the inquiry at
New Ross, he thought the proceeding was illegal—it was not
only contrary to the constitution but to the law. It seemed to
him unconstitutional to oblige the police to clear themselves by
what was called a voluntary affidavit. He thought that the
system of persecution (for persecution lie would call it) car-
ried on by the Irish Government would not have the effect de-
sired.—( Hear, hear.) There was, he contended; on the part
of the Government of Ireland a spirit of persecution carried on
by a particular class. The tendency of this would be, and had
been, to increase the very bode they were endeavouring to put
down.—( Hear, hear, from Colonel Perceval.) Suppose a
law was passed to exercise such authority over his Gallant
Friend (Colonel Perceval), as to say to him, that if lie did not
cease to be an Orangeman, he should not have a seat in that
House—he was sure that his Gallant Friend had too much
spirit to yield to such authority, and he could tell the Noble
Lord, that the more he proceeded with persecution against
these Societies, the more they would increase. He must, _at
the same time, say, that he was opposed to these Societies, and
he was opposed to this persecution, because it would lead to
the establishment of such Societies. It was symptomatic of
an unsound gate of society. He did not deny that these So-
cieties ought to be discouraged, but it was not possible to put
them down by the means adopted by the Government.—
( Hear, hear.) In this case the oath proposed to be taken
would not reach those whom it ought to be intended for.
The ribbon-men would be able to swear that lie no longer be-
longed to any secret or illegal body, and yet substantially he
would still belong to it. These parties had too well learnt
the lesson that had been taught them. They knew too well
how to evade all tests of this nature. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman opposite (Mr. O'Connell) had often boasted that
he could drive a coach and six through an Act of Parliament,
and did the Noble Lord think that these ribbon-men would not
find advisers to show them how to evade this Act of Parliament.
He did not see how the Bill could be made effective, for the
fact was that the Orangemen called their society a religious
society. It was useless to attempt to legislate for such a
state of society as that in Ireland upon general principles. He
could not but deprecate this measure, and he must say that
since the Noble Lord bad administered the affairs of Ireland,
he had done very little to obtain the confidence of the Irish
gentry, whose Church he had taken away, and now sought to
deprive them of their independence.
Lord MORPETH, notwithstanding the sweeping. denun-
ciations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, admitted that it would
be quite as well to have fewer ex officio Magistrates.
Lord CLEMENTS made some observations respecting
the mode of paying the Magistrates..
Lord MORPETH would ask his Noble Friend how he
justified the people of England, Scotland, and Ireland being
compelled to pay for the police of the metropolis ?
Lord CL EME NT S—l did not justify it : I voted against it.
An HON. MEMBER cn the Opposition side, whose name
was unknown in the Gallery, opposed the Bill.
Mr. R. PLUNKETT did not see any great objections to
the Bill—get it into Committee, and then he had no doubt
they would discuss it without any party feeling.—( Hear, hear.)
The House then went into Committee upon the Bill.
Colonel PE RCE VAL wanted to know whether any of tl-e
four Inspectors-General were to be appointed to the new
office.
Lord MORPETH did not feel that lie should give any pros
misoupon the subject.
Colonel PERCEVAL—Then the Noble Lord does not
care for the expense, for these men must have retiring al-
lowances.

The first clause was agreed to.
On clause 2 being proposed,
Lord CLEMENTS ob,;cctEd to CIE, appointment 4 a