The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-21 00:00:00

THE SUN', LONIXW, FRIDAY, AUGUST 21, 1835

hieiarchy of the Irish Church, " To restore tranquillity to
that long-distracted part of his Majesty's dominions." And
here he begged to be allowed to say (lest he should for-
get it), that with respect to that petition, he did not think that
it fairly represented the object of the Bill. He certainly did
not approve of the language in which it was couched, nor in
:he intentions which it attributes to the authors of this Bill, nor
in the consequences which the petitioners anticipated from
it. At the same time, he did not object to any part of
the petition, except that which contained such injurious
language when speaking of, and which cast such imputa-
tions upon, the Roman Catholic Church—describing that
Church as an usurpation over the consciences of men, and
as exacting by violence a subserviency to its authority.
Language of this nature was certainly not the language of a
true Christian spirit—nor the language which the ministers of
one religion should hold towards the ministers of another.—
( Cheers.) This language was not only unfit, unchristian-like
and uncharitable, but it was in the highest degree impolitic and
unwise—( Cheers)—because their Lordships should recollect,
that if these imputations were true—the more blind and bigotted
the adherents of that religion were, the more they were addicted
to it—the more that that religion had in it of authority, and
the less it had in it of reason, the more blindly attached were
its votaries, and the more impatient necessarily they must be
at hearing anything like insult and condemnation offered to
it.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships would perhaps forgive him
if he told them an old story which he remembered to have
read in an old historian, and which had always struck him
with great force as carrying with it much sound argument.
It was said by Herodotus that it was a question with many
whether the wickedness of Cambyses in his victories in the
East, were owing originally to the depraved will of a dcspot,
or to a love and admiration of tyranny. " For my part,"
said Herodotus, " I consider that he was mad, and for this
single reason ; that, being anxious to establish his power and
influence in the East, he outraged and derided the sacred
rites of the Egyptians."—( Cheers.) Those that were anxious
(and with the feelings entertained by the hierarchy of the
Protestant church they ought to be anxious) to establish
their influence in any country, should not begin by insulting
the religion of the people of that country.--(Cheats.) But,
return: he wished to induce their Lordships to make ano-
ther effort to put an end to that opposition to the law and to
the church which had grown up in Ireland. Great, he admit-
ted, was that opposition, and great were the outrages com-
mitted against the property of tithes in that country ; but he
would beg their Lordships to recollect that it was not only in
Ireland, at the present time, that objections or differences of
opinion with respect to tithes, had arisen. They were very
apt not to know what was passing in foreign countries, and
particularly in those countries where there was not that pub-
licity given to discussions of public questions—where the re-
presentative system imperfectly prevailed, or where in fact
there existed no representative system—as was given to all
measures adopted in this country. But this opposition with
respect to tithe was at the present moment epidemic through-
out Europe ; and that too in countries where this species
of property belonged not to the clergy but to laymen,
and which, therefore, was not liable to the objections arising
from the differences of opinion which prevailed with re-
spect to religion. In Germany the tithes had almost inva-
riably passed into the hands of laymen. At the time of the
Reformation the continental Reformers laid heavier hands on
the property of the Church than we in this country did. The
tithes belonging to the Roman Catholic parochial clergy be-
came the property of the lords of the manor, and the tithes of
the abbots and of the bishops became almost entirely the pro-
perty of the State. In the Roman Catholic States the tithe
property also passed almost entirely into lay hands. Indeed
in many of the States of Germany it had been found that this
impost (so to call it) was so objectionable, and so likely to be
resisted, that the authorities had taken measures for the satis-
factory arrangement and disposition of this kind of property.
Such had been the case in Prussia—a long-sighted and cau-
tious government, who took measures in time, and was, there-
fore, able to take them. Such had been the case in several
other of the States in Germany. Even in many States sup-
posed to be most tranquil, and in which the authority of the
Church was supposed to be best established, and in which,
too, he believed great content prevailed among the bulk of the
people, even there at the same time, prevailed a lively appre-
hension that tithes would not continue to be paid by the peo-
ple. He stated these facts in order to show their Lordships
that they were not alune in this calamity, and to show also
that there was something in the nature of the impost itself,
in its character, and in the mode in which it was imposed, and
in the manner in which it was paid, which rendered it natu-
rally pregnant with discord, with difficulty, and with dissen-
sion.—(Cheers.) He perfectly admitted that it was origi-
nally part of the contract that the land was purchased sub-
ject to tithe ; and he also knew that the political economists
told them that the tithe fell upon the consumer, and not upon
the person who appeared to pay it. But every statesman,
particularly with respect to financial impositions, would con-
sider, in the first place, where the financial charge really
did fall ; and secondly, he would consider where it was
thought and felt to fall.—( Great cheering.) They might
talk and argue about these tithes being originally a tenth
part of the produce of the land belonging to one party, and
the remaining nine parts to another : they might talk and
argue with the political economists that the tithe was paid in
the price of the produce by the consumer ; but, after all, they
would never persuade the bulk of mankind that it was not an
impost, let them state the matter in any manner, the most
clear and distinct their Lordships' ingenuity could suggest.—
(Checrs.) The fact was, that tithe was a mode of pay-
ment belonging to earlier times—( Hear, hear.) lc was
originally introduced among the Jews—a pastoral nation—
h; :e the inTost vias easily levied, there being no difficulty
in tLi.ing the tenth ,ow, the tenth caS, and the tenth lamb.
From thence it was made to apply to agricultural produce,
though it wes not so applicable ; but still, in the rude state
of agriculture, early times, it was. ;lot so onerous as it after-
wards beeame But by the .cculiar nowet pc.sessed by the
:derby, ~itst from the purposes te ~.lech tithe was devote',
was attempted to be extended, and in some degree was ex-
tended, to all profits whatsoever. But debate the question
how they would, as society increased, and as improvement
grew, it became an import in itself almost impossible to be
endured—an impost of the heaviest and :nest vexatious cha-
racter—an impost which in any character was likely to pro-
duce difficulties, but when they considered the circumstances
of irritation under which it was levied in Ireland, it was per-
fectly impossible to believe that it could be much longer con-
tinued to be paid with content and tranquillity in that country.
—(Cheers.) He knew very well that it would be said that
'the observations he had made naturally led to some measure of
change with respect to tithes in this country. He admitted it.
Such a measure had long been contemplated. Such a mea-
sure he thought was called for, and indeed had been recom-
mended by a Noble Lord whom he now saw opposite to him
(Lord Ashburton). He admitted that it was a question which
necessarily must form the subject of very early attention, both
of the Government and of Parliament. It was now, however,
his intention to propose to them a measure relating exclusively
to Ireland, the provisions of which he believed were already
pretty well known to their Lordships. It was nearly the same
measure, as far as tithes were concerned, which was submitted to
their Lordships, and which their Lordships rejected last year. It
was very nearly the same measure which was opened to the
House of Commons by a Gallant Officer, late Chief Secretary to
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. But that their Lordships
rejected the Bill of last year was no reason why their Lord-
ships should not now entertain this Bill. He could himself
recollect but one argument upon which they rejected the Bill
of last year. It was, that that Bill was brought in at the sugges-
tion of a certain Honourable Member of the other House of
Parliament.—( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Cumberland.)
The Illustrious Duke admitted that that was the ground
upon which that Bill was rejected.—(No, no, from the Duke
of Cumberland.) He so understood the cheer of the Illus-
trious Duke. But he at least hoped that the rejection of the
Bill of last year, founded as that rejection was upon temporary
and personal grounds, would not, now that they had passed
that period, and now that their feelings had in some degree
cooled down, interfere with their Lordships' conduct in respect
to the present measure. The Noble Viscount then proceeded
to detail the leading provisions of the Bill, which have already
appeared several times before the public. He observed that
tne existing incumbent would have 731. ss. a year, being
41. ss. less than the Bill of last year gave ; therefore the pe-
cuniary arrangement was not so advantageous, but the Go-
vernment thought that the security was considerably improved.
They did not intend to give any relief to the clergy for any
arrears previous to the year 1834. All suits for tithes actually
commenced would proceed, but the Bill extinguished the right
of commencing any new suits. By the Bill every tithe-owner
was required to state by memorial to the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners the amount of tithe due to him by, others than the
undertaking landlords. The sum of 350,0001. (the remaining
part of the million grant) would form the fund to pay the
arrears. It was intended to remit that, and also the part of
the million already issued. The Bill admitted the re-opening
of the compositions. In point of principle, he knew not whe-
ther this was perfectly correct ; but there had been so much
fraud, and error, in the compositions that had been entered into,
--they had been often so hastily and imperfectly done, arising
from false pretensions and misrepresentations, that it had been
found necessary to introduce a provision to admit the re-open-
ing of those compositions. But he should pass over this part
of the Bill with more readiness, because he was perfectly
aware that there was another subject of much greater weight,
and in which their Lordships took a deeper interest ; a sub-
ject which concerned the welfare of -the country, and affected
that which, of all interests, was the most delicate to be touched
upon—namely, the religious interests of the country.—( Hear.)
It was undoubtedly true that this Bill did contain that which
went to the diminution, and to the suspension of certain bene-
fices in the Church of Ireland. Their Lordships were aware
that a Commission was issued last year to inquire into the
numbers of the population throughout Ireland, distinguishing
the religious principles which they professed. He would not
enter upon the question as to the formation of that Commis-
sion, except to say that it did not appear to him that any of
the evils which had been expected to arise from the issuing
of it had tall en place ; or that the religious differences had
been heightened, or the bitterness of party exasperated. It
appeared that the Commission had been executed with little
difficulty, and that the Commissioners had received the co-
operation of persons of all descriptions and of all religious
persuasions. Although there might have been attacks made
upon particular Commissioners, into which attacks he would
not then go, yet he had no reason to find any fault, or be dis-
satisfied with the results of that Commission. The results ap-
peared to be, that in Ireland there were about 1,250 benefices.
Many of these consisted of unions of two, three, four, and in
some instances of eight or nine parishes. The unions consisted
of five hundred and twenty benefices ; the rest were single
benefices. There were eight hundred and seventy-six parishes
having less than fifty Protestants, the income of which parishes
was above 117,0001. arising from tithe. There were one hun-
dred and fifty-five parishes with an income of 12,0001., without
a single Ppotestant. There were one hundred and seventy.

three parishes with an income of 19,0001., which had less than
ten Protestants ; four hundred and six parishes with an income

of 54,0001., with a Protestant population seldom exceeding
fifteen persons, and never amounting to fifty. The Bill
provided, that whenever the number did not exceed fifty Pro-
testants, the benefices should be in the hands of the Eccle-

siastical Commissioners, until otherwise directed. But if any
Protestants were found to exist in a parish, however few their
numbers, the Commissioners were either to appoint a curate, or
commit the parish to the care of some neighbouring minister.
The income of the curate not to exceed 1001. per annum,
with a house and glebe-land of the value of 251. All bene-
fices above the value of 300/. per annum were to be regulated
arid liable to be reduced by the Lord Lieutenant in Council.
With the proceeds of these suspended benefices it was in-
tended to constitute a reserved fund, that fund to be paid
into the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. This,
with the residue of the million grant, and the sums that should
be recovered from the landlords, not being undertakers, but
I the principal payers of the tithe, out of which the various ex-
penses and the relief to the clergy were first to be paid, and
the residue was then to be paid over to the consolidated fund,
which fund, in consequence of this arrangement, was charged
with the annual payment of 50,0001, for the moral and reli-
gious instruction of the people of Ireland. Now, my Lords,
(said Lord Melbourne) if I am asked upon what ground I
found my justification for bringing forward this important mea-
sure, I answer that I do in the first place found it upon the
116th clause of the Church Temporalities' Act. I rest my
justification upon that clause, which enables the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners to suspend the appointment to any benefice
in which divine service has not been performed during the
last three years. This establishes the principle of the power
of the suspension of benefices which is embraced by this mea-
sure. I do not contend that it establishes the principle of
appropriation of the surplus fund ; because, undoubtedly, by
the Church Temporalities' Act, the application of the fund
is limited entirely to purposes of a strictly ecclesiastical na-
ture. But, my Lords, by that Act we reformed the hierarchy
of Ireland. Your Lordships, I know, will not allow me to
say that we strengthened the Protestant religion by that
Act. You will not at present permit me to make that
affirmation ; but I do say, my Lords, wo have not weakened
it ;—(Cheers)—but we have taken away from it a re-
proach ; and that since the passing of that Act we have
not heard the same clamour raised against that part of
the establishment which we were in the habit of hearing
previously to that Act being passed. But if I am asked upon
what further ground I rest my justification, I state distinctly
that I found myself upon a resolution of the House of Com-
mons couched in these terms :—" That any surplus revenue
of the present Church Establishment in Ireland, not required
for the spiritual care of its Members, be applied to the moral
and religious education of all classes of the people, without
distinction of religious persuasion, providing for the resump-
tion pf such surplus, or of any such part of it, as may be
required by an increase in the number of the Members
Of the Established Church." When I accepted the office
which I now hold, and when the Government of which I
am unworthily the head was formed, I was asked in this
House whether I came into office in order to carry into
effect that resolution ? I answered distinctly that I did.
Your Lordships heard that answer, and knew the grounds and
principles of that Administration. You permitted the for-
mation of that Administration,—(No, no by, we believe,
the Duke of Wellington.) You have since permitted it to con-
duct the affairs of this country, differing from it undoubtedly
in some of the measures it has introduced—but with respect to
many of the great interests of the country, foreign as well as
domestic, giving to it a very general and decisive snpport.
Therefore when I am asked upon what I found my justifica-
tion, I answer upon that support which your Lordships have
given to my Government. I say this distinctly; and I wish to
have it so understood, that my justification for forming the Mi-
nistry—and, my Lords, no one is more sensible—( here the Noble
Viscount suddenly dropped his voice, which rendered him wholly
inaudible in the Gallery.) No person is more sensible than I
am of the narrow grounds upon which it was formed—no
man is more sensible of the great and powerful opposition
which it had to encounter—but my justification in forming
that Ministry, and for holding office until now, is
distinctly upon the authority of that support which I have re-
ceived from your Lordships' hands. This is a great popular
assembly.. Your Lordships are very numerous. Your Lord-
ships are actuated by the same feelings and the same passions
as all other assemblies, and it is not in human nature that a
great majority should continue to suffer a minority to carry on
the Government of the country, unless they found themselves
under the pressure of some over-ruling necessity, unless
they felt themselves under the direction and control of a
principle of prudence and sound policy, unless they felt
compelled by an irresistible power to observe an abstinence
not natural to them. I say, then, that your Lordships'
conduct, in not more effectually interposing in respect to the
existing Administration, is as full a justification of my con-
duct as can possibly be adduced."—(Cheers.) The Noble
Viscount then adverted to the anomalous state of things in
Ireland, and which lay so much on the surface that it was un-
necessary for him to point them out to their Lordships. They
beheld in that country a great Protestant Establishment, cos
existent with a great Roman Catholic population. It was
sufficient to point that out, in order to see the difficulties
which at all times, but more particularly at the present time,
the insuperable difficulties, which must necessarily form such
an anomaly. This was a state of things, for the responsi-
bility of which we, in our complacency, in our self-love, were
apt to cast back upon those who have passed before us.
We were very ready to complain of the tyranny of
former Kings, of the bad policy of former Ministers, and
generally of the arbitrary conduct of former Parliaments ; we
were all very fora and in saying, " This was wrong, and that
was wrong ;" but if any one of those individuals were now to
conic among us, it was more than probable that he would be
able to show us in one senience, that in the circumstances in
which tiwy were placed—considering tee difficulties with
which tliay were surrounded, the state of opinion exi Ain., in
slick day, and the influences to which they were subjected—
that it was perfectly impossible they could have acts. other-
'vise than they did ; and most certainly tliere was one thin
he would be able to say—fur seeing, as he would see, . the
wealthy and magnificent state of the Irish Church, and the
rapidly increasing Roman Catholic population surrounding
and supporting it, he would most assuredly exclaim, " This
is a state of things w',ich we never contemplated.—( Cheers. )
We never intended that there should be a Protestant Esta-
blishment and a Roman Catholic population. Our policy
might have been wrong, and our conduct violent, but our po-
licy was the extermination of the Roman Catholics. That
was our policy from the reign of Henry VIII. downwards."
Such would be the language of that individual ; and he would
further say—" If you abandon our policy, then your present
conduct is absurd. We intended to put an end to Catholicism,
but if you intend to reconcile Catholics with Protestants,
then you must proceed in a different course from that in
which you have been and are proceeding." The Noble
Viscount admitted, that to adopt a new course was perhaps,
considering the grievances that exist, as great a difficulty as
any Government or any Parliament had to deal with. He
only said that their Lordships should act prudently, cau-
-1 tiously, temperately, but at the same time according to
sense and reason. But he would say, that keeping up a large
Protestant Establishment amidst a Roman Catholic popula-
tion was not according to sense or reason ; nor was it calcu-
lated to produce the end which it had in view. Their Lordships
were perpetually called upon in speeches and in petitions not
to devote the Church property to other than pious and Eccle-
siastical purposes. But this Bill was not devoting it to other
than those purposes. It was, in fact, restoring that property
to pious and Ecclesiastical purposes. It had been diverted
from those ends. It had been applied to keep up ministers
who had no flocks to receive instruction, and who were evi-
dently not required. Its present application answered no
Protestant purpose, nor any religious purpose whatsoever.
What was such a minister ? Pastor he was not, for he had
no cure of souls. Missionary he was not. If he were
to be considered a Missionary—then he would revert back
to his argument, that it was not wise nor prudent to
look upon the Roman Catholics—who in all the fundamentals
of Christianity agreed with the Protestants—as so many bar-
barous idolaters, and as if they were the worshippers of
Jaggernaut. To insult their religion was not the way
to convert the Roman Catholics. But the Protestant Cler-
gyman had no qualifications for assuming the character of a
Missionary. In the first place, he was not disinterested
in the religion he sought to propagate. There was
some degree of doubt, whether Missionaries among
other nations had had the effect of spreading the religion
which it was their object and intention to promote. It was
upon the distinct ground of ministers without the cure of
souls, an Establishment among a people not requiring it—
which must have a very injurious effect even on the character
of the clergy themselves—that this appropriation clause was
founded. He was, however, aware of the difficulties that
beset this measure ; and felt that it was to a certain degree
a discouragement to the Protestant religion. It was not, he
admitted, the same thing to abolish, as to endeavour to esta-
blish ; but at the same time this measure was forced upon them
by the extreme absurdity of the state of things which existed
in that country. He knew the convulsion and collision which
always accompanied such great and fundamental alterations
as these; but they were called for by irresistible circum-
stances. These changes could be effected in a popular Go
vcrnment with more safety than in any other form of Govern-
ment ; for after the violence had expended itself, they were
acquiesced in with comparative tranquillity. But whatever
might be the result of this question, he hoped these changes
would only be sought by fair, legal, and constitutional
means. Among the many admirable things said by Sir Robert
Peel when Prime Minister, was this-s." That he had advised
the Crown never to_ part with the moral force which was de-
rived from keeping strictly within the limits and bounds of
the Constitution." With more inefficient voice, and less
authority, he begged leave to address the same language to
the people of this country and of Ireland. He now begged
to move the second reading of the Bill. " I ask your Lord-
ships to give it a fair, attentive, and serious consideration. I
beg your Lordships to consider the responsibility which lies
upon me for having brought forward this great and mighty
alteration. It is many years since Mr. Burke, when address-
ing Parliament on a great and important measure, observed,
Extended as our empire is, and having dominion over such
various races and characters, I do not fear the subversion of
that empire from any foreign attacks_l do not fear her ene-
mies, or the means and power and greatness of those against
us ; but there is one thing which I do fear, and that is our
own internal dissatisfaction and discontent.' My Lords, I may
be sanguine, or I may be short-sighted. It is impossible that
in an empire so wide, so extended, and so scattered as it is in
every part of the globe, composed of every race and character
and condition of men, it is impossible not to feel that in some
part of it there must be something not quite secure from dan-
ger—that there must be some cause for alarm, some cause
for apprehension. I may be sanguine, my Lords, or short-
sighted, but I cannot say that I see at present any thing which

should excite, in any part of that empire, a dread of any
decrease of our power or greatness, except it be from our own
internal discords and dissensions.—( Cheers.) Therefore, my
Lords, upon these views it is that I now propose this measure
for your Lordships' approval. I beg you to consider it upon
enlightened principles, without any narrow views, but casting
away from you all prejudices, and acting upon such princi-
ples and such views as are consistent with the magnitude of
this great and important measure, to pass this Bill for the
strengthening of that empire, which may be kept together by
sound views, and a liberal and enlightened policy, but which
cannot be kept together except you consult the feelings,
rights, and interests of the population of every part of that
empire."—( Great cheers.)
Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI complimented the
Noble Viscount upon the tone in which he had addressed the
House. He thought, however, that the Noble Viscount, in
referring to the Jews, and to what Herodotus had said of Cam-
byses, had brought forward that which was not analogous to
the subject under debate. He had to complain that the Noble
Viscount was not justified in what he had said relative to the
petition that had been presented to that House from the Pre-
lates of Ireland.—( Here the Noble Lord read the petition at
full length, and appealed to the House whether any part of it
justified what had fallen from the Noble Viscount.) Tithes, as
tithes, were extinguished in Ireland, especially since Lord
Stanley's Act made the composition compulsory. In these
arguments the Noble Viscount had anticipated an objection
which would naturally arise in the mind of any one. Why, if
tithes were so oppressive as his information described them to
be, not deal with England'as well as with Ireland? Why not
deal rather with them in England than in Ireland ? Tithes
existed in full force in England; but they had been virtually
put an end to by composition, voluntarily and compulsory, in
Ireland, for a considerable period past. He (Lord Fitzgerald
and Vesci) had a right to complain that the Noble Viscount
bad, argued on what he called a general principle ; which,
however, did not apply to any practical purpose. He ( Lord
Fitzgerald and Vesci) did not intend to oppose the second
reading of the Bill, and therefore he should not enter much
into its details. He (Lord Fitzgerald and Vesci) admitted
there was one improvement in the Bill before their Lordships,
which was fixing the incomes of the Clergy at a rent charge
on the land. Having noticed these points, he should pro-
ceed to state the view which he, in common with several
of his Noble Fi iends around him, took of the Bill as it
stood, and suggest the measures which might be adopted in
respect to it. He did not desire to prevent the Bill going
into Committee, either on the part of the Church of Eng-
land, the Clergy, or the flock—he did not desire to offer any
obstruction to the measure in the present stage, or throw any
difficulties in its way, in as far as the settlement of the income
of the Clergy was concerned ; but there his acquiescence
should cease. He would ask any Noble Peer around him,
whether the Noble Viscount had adduced a single reason, or
advanced the shadow of an argument, to convince them that
the proposition of providing for the Clergy and of spoliating
the Church, were inseparable. One of the first objects,
therefore, which he (Lord Fitzgerald and Vesci) should have
in view in his conduct towards the measure, would be the se-
paration of the two propositions—the laudable one of providing
for the Clergy by a rent charge on the land, from the ob-
noxious one which contained the principle of appropriation.
The next question put by the Noble Viscount was that which
referred to the re-opening of the tithe compositions made since
the introduction of Mr. Goulburn's Act- The Noble Viscount
admitted that it might be an injustice to re-open contracts
which had existed so long. He argued that it would give
much trouble, but he justified himself in its adoption by
stating that he could not resist the representations of the evils
entailed by the system, or the sufferings of individuals. Of
all the provisions of that generally objectionable Bill, that
was the most decidedly objectionable. The composition
under the Act of Mr. Goulburn, was a voluntary compd.-
sition ; but, independent of that fact, the time which had
elapsed since they had been entered into—the difficulty which
the present incumbents would have in procuring evidence
of the composition—the trouble—the expense—the uncer-
tainty—the delay—made it a monstrous proposition.—( Hear. )
The compositions since the passing of Mr. Goulburn's Act
were 1,505 in all. From that number there were only 39 ap-
peals ; of which a portion was from tithe owners as well as
tithe payers. Out of that 39, 15 were withdrawn and six re-
ferred to the Judges of the Assize ; 18 remained for the con-
sideration of the Privy Council. Of that number only three
were reduced; the remainder were affirmed. With these
facts staring him in the face the Noble Viscount wished to
re-open the composition. He should now approach a part of
the Bill to which he felt, as a Protestant—an Irish Protestant
—his language could not do justice—he could not do justice ;
he meant that part which sequestrated parishes having under a
certain number of Protestants residing in them—a part which
the Noble Viscount had described as a recurrence to the prin-
ciples on which the Church was founded, not a departure from
them—a restoration, not a spoliation.—( Hear.) At the time
the Union between England and Ireland was effected, the inte-
grity of the Protestant Church was guaranteed by one of the
articles of the Act. He (Lord Fitzgerald and Vesci) was
quite ready to reform every proved abuse in the Church ; he
did not mean for a moment to defend sinecures, or to apolo-
gize for pluralities ; but he was decidedly opposed to every
thing which had for its end the destruction of the Church.
He thought that further inquiry should be instituted before
their Lordships came to any decision upon the subject. The
Noble Lord read an extract from the Edinburgh Review de-
precating the system of a numerical arrangement of Protes-
tants in the different parishes, as impolitic, and calculated to
promote religious discord. No consideration on earth should
induce him, however acutely he might feel for the suffering
clergy, to consent to this Bill for misappropriating the ecclesi-
astical revenue. He would never consent to perpetuate, as
this Bill would perpetuate, the existence of what had been
eloquently called that " bloody brotherhood" in a country
where the force of law had the strength of flax, and the
force of crime was a- the strength of iron.--( Cheers.)
They had been told that the Ministers of the Protestant
Church were poor and few, and that eleemosynary clause had
been lauded which gave to the clergyman the sum of 51. per
aenam• They might be poor, and that Church might be
sapped and undermined, but there were defenders in the
breach to repel the assailants.—(Cheers.) On the introduc-
tion of that Bill in the other House of Parliament the Noble
Lord who originated the measure had referred retrospectively
to the census of 1831, with a view to ascertain how many
parishes were below the Parson's point.—( Laughter.) By this
method 860 parishes were discovered to be in a condition to be
suspended. Now he saw no reason, as the retrospective stan-
dard of 1831 had been adopted, why there should not, at a
future period, be a prospective one, by which means 200
more parishes might be added to the list of those already pro-
nounced suspended, and deprived of religious ministration.
The Noble Lord then alluded to the destitute condition of the
parochial Clergy of Ireland, and quoted a resolution of the
Irish Parliament, declaring every man an enemy to his country
who should pay the tithe of agistment. The Irish Clergy were
a devoted, suffering, and high-minded class of men, and he
hoped no measure would ever pass that House to deprive them
of their insufficient emoluments. There was another point to
which he would direct attention, namely, the provision that the
land-tax should go through the office of the Commissioners of
Woods and Forests ; and he begged to say he should prefer,
and he should think it more appropriate, if it came to the hands
of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He should vote for the
second reading of the Bill, under the belief that in Committee
it would undergo alterations, and remove the evils with which
at present it was pregnant.
The Marquis of C L A NRIC A RDE thought that if the
House rejected the measure it would do much to shake the re-
spect of the people for their Lordships, and might not only
endanger the Church Establishment, but unsettle every insti-
tution in the country.
The Earl of RIPON did not think the House was fairly
dealt by in being called upon to pass in one Bill two principles
entirely dissimilar.—( Hear, hear.) Part of the Bill it was
incumbent on their Lordships to pass. The revenues of the
Church and the tranquillity of Ireland were not necessarily
connected. The provision for the Clergy might insure tran-
quillity, but the plan of appropriation would prevent it. It
was most extraordinary to pass a Bill upon the ground that it
will give satisfaction in Ireland, when the necessary conse-
quence of it must dissatisfy the whole body of the Protestant
population.—( Hear.) His Noble Friend stated no reasons
for cutting off from the Established Church of Ireland at
least the one-third. It was not impossible to conceive some
severe necessity that might at least palliate this ecclesias-
tical revolution.—( Hear, hoar.) A revolution he must call
it, because it completely altered the relation between the
Church of Ireland and the State. But his Noble Friend did
not attempt to show any such necessity. The Bifl, if not
an actual breach of the Union, touched very close upon it.
If there was any one thing for which the Act of, Union pro-
vided with more jealousy and caution than another, it was to
give as complete security to the Church of Ireland as to that of
England.—( Cheers.) This Bill did, pro tanto, dissolve the
Union. It was not upon the Act of Union alone it trenched,
but upon other Acts since passed, and one in particular, the
Church Temporalities Bill. The present measure, as re-
garded that Bill, he held to be nothing more or less than a
breach of parliamentary faith. Two years ago this charter,
the Church Temporalities Bill, was granted to the Church of
Ireland, and within that short period Ministers went to Parlia-
ment and said, " We will take away those very revenues by
which it was proposed to provide for all these important ob-
jects:" Commissioners were appointed to manage the Per-
petuity Fund, and to apply it to the purposes mentioned in the
Church Temporalities Bill. The fund was estimated at
40,000/. a-year. What was it now ? Nothing. The whole
produce was gone. The Commissioners were bankrupt. This
Bill charged upon the Perpetuity Fund the 5/. per cent., to be
paid by the Clergy, but it took away from them all the benefits
that might arise from the suppressed benefices. This was dan-
gerous, because it was faithless, legislation. The Bill
was a mass of contradiction from be inning to end, and
of the most gross inconsistencies. So far from producing
peace, it would be the source of perpetual, and endless, and
ruinous division, and render it utterly hopeless to effect by legis-
lation any amelioration of the condition of the people of Ireland.
If a grant of 50,000/. a year was proposed for the education of
the people of Ireland no person would oppose it. A sum of
nearly this amount was voted in the present session. He was
willing to grant any sum that might be deemed necessary for
so desirable a purpose, but what could be more unnecessary,
more impolitic, more dangerous, than to set one-half of the
population of England and Ireland against the other half—to
stir up religious prejudices and hostile feelings to effect a pur-
pose that might have been attained without incurring the
slightest danger or inconvenience. He had little doubt, if the
measure passed, that in five years the 860 parishes the revenues
of which were to be applied to the purposes of education,
would be doubled. The 50,000/. would not be worth the
price that must be paid for it, and if that sum should be raised
to 200,000/. what would become of the Church of Ireland ?
It was spoken of as the most richly-endowed of any in Eu-
rope, abounding in wealth, pampered and bloated, and some

compared it to Juggernaut, crushing thousands of victims be-
neath its wheels. It was not even now a rich Church ' - but
let this sum be deducted, and the Protestant Clergy would be
reduced to beggary, to utter destitution.
The Bishop of EXETER felt it his duty to the Church of
which he was a member to enter his most solemn protest
against the main principles contained in the preamble of this
Bill. He would much sooner be bereft of his rights as a
Member of that House than become a party to such gross
injustice—he would say impiety—as the Bill contemplated.
He thanked the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
for his candour upon this occasion, for the Noble Lord avowed
that the Government had entered upon a course that was in-
defensible in principle.—(" No, no," from the Ministerial
benches.) The Noble Viscount, and those who acted with
him, determined, at any cost, to support themselves in their
places, were prepared to pull down what had been most ho-
noured and reverenced for ages in the country.—( A laugh
from the Ministerial benches.) Noble Lords might laugh.
For his part his only hope was that this course would be
stopped by that House, by the other House of Parliament, or
by the people. They were told that they must be prepared
to make still greater sacrifices, if the convenience of his Ma-
jesty's Government should require it. He now gave notice
that, in the Committee, he would move that all the clauses of
the Bill, from clause 61 to 69, should be struck out.
The Bishop of CHICHESTER said a few words that
were quite inaudible. We understood them to be in favour
of the Bill.
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A did not mean to oppose the
second reading of the Bill. He trusted, however, that before
the question was decided, their Lordships in this stage of the
proceedings would permit him to make a few observations. He
was quite overpowered by the importance of the measure.
The abolition of the Test and Corporation Oath, the Emanci-
pation Bill, and even the Reform Bill itself, fell into utter in-
significance when compared with this. The question in one
sentence was, whether the Catholic religion was to be predo-
minant or whether the country was to remain Protestant. If
they surrendered the Protestant Church of Ireland to her inve-
terate enemies, would they be satisfied? Would not the Pro-
testant property of Ireland attract them still more forcibly, and
would they rest satisfied till they wrested it from the hands of
the present possessors ? It was their bounden duty as Members ,
of the Legislature, as individuals, and as Christians, to provide
for the temporal welfare of their fellow-subjects in Ireland.
How much stronger was the obligation to provide for their
spiritual welfare? What a monstrous—he might say impious
—principle to deprive every parish in which there were not fifty
Protestants of all religious consolation. Religion was the
greatest blessing, the greatest comfort, of life.
Lord GLE NE L G could not but regret the asperity of
of language indulged in by the Right Rev. Prelate who had
spoken in the course of the debate, and whose duty he thought
it was rather to mitigate than exasperate the severity of dis-
cussion. The Right Rev. Prelate had charge them with a
design to undo the Church, but they had been so long familiar
with such accusations that they weighed but lightly.
The Earl of RODEN would not admit the general prin-
ciple of the Bill, but he should not oppose the second reading,
because he thought it necessary to make a provision for the
collection of tithes and the support of the Clergy.
After a few words from Lord CLONCURKY, the Duke of
NEWCASTLE, and the Marquis of WESTMEATH, which were
quite inaudible,
The Earl of FALNIOUTH protested against every other part
of the Bill except that which facilitated the composition of
tithes.

Viscount MELBOURNE having shortly replied,
The Bill 'was read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted on Monday next.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY postponed his notice
of motion on foreign policy, which stood for Monday, to Wed-
nesday.
The Report on the Municipal Corporations Bill was fixed
for Tuesday.—Adjourned-at half-past Twelve o'clock.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

TA TTERSALL' S.
DONCASTER ST. LEGER.

The betting yesterday in the afternoon was confined almost es-
elusively to four horses, but was heavy in amount, and of sufficient
importance to effect some material changes. The disposition to be
against the Cambrian Queen was so decided that long before the,
close of the Room she had ceased to be " Trumps," the winner 0,1,
the Derby having usurped her position at the " head of affairs.
Ascot opened at 7to 1, and was backed freely at 6to 1. These
odds, howeNer, were offered at the finish. The highest offer against
Preserve at the close was 7 to 1 ; at a point more several were ready
to back her. The records of the turf will not, we believe, turn's!'
a more curious position than is presented by the betting on this
race, the winners of the Derby and Oaks being first and second fa'
vourites, and the second for each third and fourth favourites. The
last prices were-
-9 to 2 agst Mr. Bowes's Mundig—taken
5 to 1 agst Mr. Mostyn's Queen of Trumps—taken
6 to 1 agst Lord Orford's Ascot—offered
7 to 1 agst Mr. Greville's Preserve—take 8 to 1
13 to 1 agst Lord Derby's Verbena—taken
15 to 1 agst Mr. Richardson's Hornsea—offered
40 to 1 agst Mr. J. Peel's Trim—take 50
2,000 to 50 agit Mr. llouldsworth's Turban—taken
3,000 to 35 agst Mr. Marson's Zirza filly—taken
400 to 200, 1,000 to 500, and 1,400 to 800 agst Queen of TruU
and Mundig—taken.
700 to 200 agst Ascot and Preserve—taken

Egham Races take place on Tuesday next and two following days'
and are expected to be honoured by the presence of their Majesties'

TUNBRID GE WELLS RACES, WEDNEsDA
The Manor Stakes of 5 sous. each, with 45 added. Heats, two
miles and a distance. Winner to be sold for 1501. if demanded, S,e'
Mr. Bacon's Tiara, 5 yrs, 9st. 121 b Brick 1 1
Mr. Messers's Victoria, 4 yrs, Bst. 61b
Mr. Balchin's Agitator, 3 yrs, 7st 41b ......... 4 3
Mr. W. Day's Shylock, 5 yrs, Bst. 121 b 3 4
A Give-and-Take Plate, weight for inches, by subs. of 3 sovs. exalt
and 40 added. Heats, Two miles and a distance. The winner
to be sold for 80/., if demanded, &c. 14 hands, Bst, and 7 fc't
every inch over or under.
Mr. Bacon's Malibran, 15 h., 9st. 41b Brick 1 1
Mr. Simmonds's The Witch, 13 h. 1 in, sst I Ilb 3 2
Mr. Blow's Thump ,14 h , 7st. 111 b 2 3
Mr. J. Bacon's Fanny, 13 h., sst. I Ilb dis
The Kent and Sussex Stakes of 5 sovs. each, and 35 added. 11011
a mile and a distance. The winner to be sold for 50 soil., 1
demanded, &c.
• Mr. Pegg's Little-thought-of, Ilst...Maplesden, jun 1 1
Captain Minett's Mischief, llst
Mr. Cramp's Sultana list
The course was honoured by the presence of their Royal Big':
nesses the Duchess of Kent and the Princess Victoria, and a very
fashionable company.

BURTON-UPON-TRENT RACES, TuEmu'.
Sweepstakes of 20 sovs. each, h. ft.
Mr. E. Peel's Cyrus
The Bretliy Cup, value 130 sovs, added to a Handicap of 15 501 g.
each, &c.
Sir T. Stanley's Intriguer, Bst
Mr. E. Peel's Tarick, 4 yrs, 7st. I Ilb 2
Mr. Bower's Lady Stafford, Bst. 51b
Four others not placed.
A Plate of 501. Heats, two miles and a distance.
Mr. E. Peel's Bardolph 1 1
General Yates's Syren 2 2
Mr. Mott's Luck 3 3
Mr. Smith's Tristram Shandy
•
A Sweepstakes of 10 sows. each was won by Mr. T. Ongle),,
Donnington, beating Captain Lamb's Jack, and Mr. G. Vernon
br. f. by Bedlamite.

DEVON AND EXETER RACES, TUESDAY'. be
The Devonshire Stakes of 25 sovs. each ; 31 subscribers paid /
smaller, and four the larger forfeit. Once round the Old Course'
Mr. Etwall's Goldfringe, 4 yrs,':7st. 101b...5. Day, jun 1
Colonel Gilbert's Lily, aged, 7st
Piece of Plate, value 100 sovs. Two mile heats.
Mr. Wreford's Freedom, 4 yrs S. Day, jun. 1 0 2
1
Mr. Biggs's De Beriot, 3 yrs, 6st. 101 b
Sweepstakes of 5 sovs. each, with 30 added. Heats, one wile'
Sir E. Baker's Spume, 4 yrs, 9st. 31b...J. Day,juu. 1 1
Mr. Biggs's De Beroit, 3 yrs, Bst. 101 b.

SPANISH LEGION.—The remainder of Colonel
Kinloch's regiment of Lancers were to be on board yestcrdaY,
The second regiment under Col. Jack, is now forming at /411
thumberland-street, Charing-cross. They are, however, stia
deficient in all non-commissioned officers, and commission, cei
officers with few exceptions, as well as gentlemen cadets. 1:16
will be mounted on Irish horses, which will be shipped
Cork direct to Spain.

MARRIED. of
On the 18th inst., at Westbury-upon-Tryrn, John Osborg;ner
Lincoln's In- br se' -id son of Jeremiah Ocody,

Ancoln's Inn, oarrister-at-law, seem.. _
Esq., of Bristol, to Emma, youngest daughter of William Du"-
Esq., of the same city.
On the 17th inst., at Southampton, Mr. Henry Brett, iiin•o'oly
Drury-lane, London, brandy-merchant, to Miss Eliza Higgs'
daughter of Mr. Richard Higgs, of Southampton.
On the 12th inst., at St. Dionis Backchurch, Mr. N,..atAllar4o.3rdel
Wegg, of Deptford, to Sarah, second daughter of Mr. Du
Hawke, of the same place. to
On the 19th inst., at Streatham Richard Harman Lloyd',,_ of
Isabella Mary, eldest daughter of 'William Borradaile, P.'44
Balham, Surrey.

DIED.
On the 17th inst., at Hawksdale, Mr. George Monk-
hotls°'
aged 91. •
Lately, at Stoke, Mr. James Burt, aged 82.
On the 10th inst., at Thetford, Norfolk, Thomas ViPa°'
in his 59th year. oertst
On the 19th inst., at The Bury, Hemel Hempstedl
Har
On Grover, E., aged 73. Job°
ry
the •29th ofs Jqune, at Retirement, St. James's, Jan 0' 011
Haughton James, Esq., of Haughton Hall and Burnt Gr°
ageOnd 7
th 2. 61. be
e 18th inst., at Leamington Spa, in her 21st years Eliza'
Catherine, only daughter of Captain
_____ Alangin, Royal Navy
I SQ.
London: Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, ° oat 7
112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the c°
of Middlesex.

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