The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, MONDAY, JULY 13, 1835.

SECOND EDITION.

SUN OFFI CE, Seven o'clock.

THE PARLIAMENT.

(THIS EVENING.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at half-past three o'clock.
A Messenger from the India House presented returns of
compensation granted to the officers of the East India Com-
pany's Service.
On the motion of Mr. POULTER, Lambert's Divorce
Bill *as read a second time.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE brought up the, Report of the Com-
mittee on the Port Dundas and Daigreen Road Bill.
On the motion of Mr. CLAY, Bergman's Naturalization
Bill was read a third time and passed.
Lord SANDON presented a petition from the General
Steam Packet Company, praying that the regulations of the
port of London may be applied to the port of Liverpool.
LIVERPOOL FREEMEN.

Lord SAND ON then presented a petition signed by 3,000
freemen of the town of Liverpool, praying that the rights
which they have heretofore enjoyed, under their Charter, may
be preserved to them, and more especially the right of voting
for Members of Parliament.

Mr. THORNL E Y did not rise for the purpose of offering
any opposition to the Freemen of Liverpool, but he could not
help saying that it was well known that the greatest bribery
prevailed in all cases of election for Liverpool among the
freemen. On one occasion he had seen a public notice posted
up in the Committee-room of a Candidate for the office of
Mayor, offering one hundred pounds for a tally of freemen
to vote for the Mayor. Upwards of 8,0001. had been ex-
pended at an election for the office of Mayor of Liverpool.
It was equally matter of public notoriety that 2,600 free-
men were bribed at elections for Members of Parliament for
that town, and the total expenditure at each of these elections
were estimated at 80,000/. Though these freemen petitioned
for the preservation of their rights, he was happy to say that
the people of Liverpool at large, and a very great number of
the freemen, were in favour of the measure of Corporation Re-
form, and he trusted that that measure would be shortly the
law of the land.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord S AND ON—There certainly was at one .time gross
corruption in Liverpool, but since the last three or four elec-
tions, even his Hon. Opponent, Mr. Ewart, would admit that
no bribery had taken place. He did not think it was very
gracious in the Hon. Member to bring forward these charges
against the petitioners. In answer to an observation of Mr.
Thoniley, the Noble:Lord said that the bribery proved against
the freemen of Liverpocl did not amount to more than between
20/. and 30/.

Mr. HOGG presented a petition from Beverley against
some clauses of the Corporation Reform Bill.
Mr. K. TYNTE presented a petition from Yeovil, signed
by 2 burgesses and 150 householders, expressing their satis-
faction at the measure of Municipal Reform introduced by his
Majesty's Ministers.
TITHES AND REGIUM DONUM.

Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from Coleraine,
in Londonderry, against the continuance of tithes ; and
also against the regium donum. The petitions stated
that the great majority of them were Presbyterians ; and
they expressed their belief that a compulsory assessment
for the support of any Church was not consistent with the
interests of true religion and the principles of justioe. He
stated that the reguim donum was not only a useless but
a pernicious waste of the public money. They further stated
that the petition presented from the Synod of Ulster for the
continuance of this bounty was signed by many who now regret-
ted that they bad done any such thing, and they stated
that they did so in consequence of being led to believe that
the petition only prayed for an equalization. They prayed
that the House would equalize the grant by allowing each
minister an annual salary of 751.
Dr. BOW RING presented a petition from Kilmarnock,
praying for the establishment of Boards of Trade. He did
not concur in the Ira:, er of the petition. If he believed
that the introduction of Boards of Trade would
benefit the condition of the labouring classes, he would be
the first to advocate them. The experiment had been al-
ready tried, and had failed, and had been followed by great
distress. For these reasons he could not support the prayer
of the petition.
Mr. WILK S said his Hon. Friend might have added, that
the establishment of Boards of Trade would not only not add
to the prosperity of the weavers, but would, in a very short
time, be most detrimental to the interests of the manufacturers
also. The evil would extend until it put an end to the manu-
factures of whatever district was obliged to inflict itself with
such Boards.
Mr. RUT VEN could not allow such remarks to pass
altogether without notice. There was no doubt that the
working men in these places were labouring- under very
great privations—( Hear, hear),—and ho hoped Parliament
would find out some remedy for the evil, even though the Com-
mittee might decide against Boards of Trade. He did not
like to hear the abstract principles of political - economy
brought forward in cases of such distress.
Mr. O'CONNELL must protest against any abuse of poli-
tical economy upon the part of his Hon. Colleague.—( A
laugh.) It was impossible for the Parliament to legislate with
any benefit upon such a subject. All that they could do was
to take off the taxes upon knowledge, and then the labouring
man would know how unbencficial such a measure would be to
himself.

Mr. POTTER presented a petition from an individual
named John Brand (as we understood), complaining of the
great cruelty now exercised in Lunatic Asylums, and praying
that the House would take some steps to remedy the defect in
the Bill then before the House.

Mr. HEATHCOTE presented a petition from Stoke-on-
the Tren►, praying for the abolition of the tax upon the news-
papers.
Sir OSWALD MO SELEY supported:the prayer of the
petition.
Mr. FRESHFIELD presented a petition, signed by at.
tornies and solicitors, praying for relief from the Annual Tax
imposed upon them by the taking cut of their certificates.
Mr. OSWALD presented three petitions from the Mer-
chants and Traders of the city of Glasgow, respecting "the du-
ties upon Baltic timber,

of the Committee, because by law the power was delegated
to them.—( Hear, hear.) It would in his (Mr. Wynn's)
opinion, be excessively inconvenient, if a party against whom
a decision was come to by an Election Committee should be
allowed to enter into a long protest, stating that the decision
was erroneous in such and such points. He protested against
its being received, as it would open a door to very many in-
conveniences. _ _

Mr. O'CONNELL—The Right Hon. Member could not
have understood what he said, or else he would not have made
those objections. If he did understand what he (Mr. O'Con-
nell) had said, his objections would lead to the most monstrous
mischief. This petition prayed for legislative relief, and had
no connection whatever with the recent election. It did
not impeach in the slightest degree the seat of the present
lion. Member for Drogheda, nor did it impeach, which would
be highly indelicate, the integrity of the Committee ; on
the contrary, it set up a pure point of law, and com-
plained that the Committee had decided on that law,
taking it for granted that the Committee had decided
rightly, but the petitioner further prayed legislative relief from
this law. There was no appeal from this Committee, an the
law as laid down would be taken as a precedent by other Com-
mittees, and under these circumstances the only remedy was to
come to that House for legislative relief. This decision was
unexpected, arid was contrary to the opinion of legal men
most conversant with these matters, but this petition did
not impeach the legality of the decision or the integrity of
the Committee, but merely prayed that the House would le-
gislate on the subject.
Mr. W YNN begged pardon or the Hon.; and Learned
Gentleman. The petition distinctly questioned the legality
of the judgment. That House had no authority to pronounce
whether the Committee did or did not decide rightly. They
could only legislate for the future. The petitioner " alleged
that he was prepared to piove.that the decision which had re-
moved him from his seat, and which bad deprived his consti-
tuents of their representative, was illegal." Now, he would
ask, was not this a direct impeachment of the legality of
the decision ?—( Hear.) They might as well say that all
election petitions should be decided by a majority of the House,
as in the time of Sir Robert Walpole, who said that he would
, look not to the merits of the petition, but to the petitioner.—
(Cries of " Spoke.")
Mr. WARBURTON did not believe that in recent deci-
sions it was usual to be very strict in the construction of pe-
titions. This petition did not question the legality of the de-
cision of the Committee, nor did it seek to displace the mem-
ber who now sits for the borough of Drogheda ; and he did
not conceive that the words referred to by the Right Hon.
Member (Mr. Wynn) would prevent the House from re-
ceiving the petition. If they followed the rule laid down
by that Right Hon. Member they must consider the law
of Election Committees absolutely perfect. Now every
Hon. Member out of the House admitted that a Com-
mittee was the very worst tribunal in the world to which those
questions could be referred. Let the House took at the
first Committee to which this case had been referred, in which
it was decided that by an incorrect description of qualification
the return should bo set aside. Let them compare this de-
cision with that in the case of the Honourable Member
fir Dover (Mr. Halcomb). He (Mr. Halcomb) gave
no description at all, but came before the House and re-
quested that additional time should be allowed him to
put in a correct qualification. When the question came be-
fore the House, he (Mr. W.) appealed to the then Speaker,
whether if the House complied with the request it would
prevent the election Committee from trying, according
to the Grenville Act, whether there -was a qualification or not.
The Committee in that case acted as directed by the Act of
Parliament. They went into the question, and they decided
that the Hon. Member was possessed of a qualification, although
in fact be bad not given in any description of it. Was not
this a (ale to he complained of? No one at present could possi-
bly know upon what points of law the Committee would de-
cide, or what was to be considered as applicable to the case.
Every one, either in the House or out of it, complained
of the tribunal, and it appeared to him that it was now
high time that all election petitions should be referred
to a different tribunal.—( Cheers.) He would suggeet that
there should be three or four permanent Committees ap-
pointed by the Speaker, or otherwise, with some eminent law-
yer to preside over them— ( Loud cheers)—and tell them
the state of the law, and in his opinion these Committees cught
not only to be open generally, but at all times, so that the
public might not only be able to see what their decivions were,
but the grounds upon which they were founded.
Colonel WOOD complained that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had not given notice to the Hon. Gentleman %
was the Chairman of the Committee. '
Mr. WARBURTON said it was, and had been, for some

time in the Orders of the Day.
Air. O'CONNELL said he had shown the petition to the
Hon. Member (Mr. Warburton), who said it had nothing at
all to do with the Committee.

Col. WOOD, as the only member who had been on the
Committee then present, was very anxious to say a few words
upon the question. The Hon. Gent. who was Chairman of
the Committee, had been out of town for some days, and it
would have been desirable that he had been present, be-
cause he was the best able to have stated the facts pre-
sented before the Committee. He (Colonel W.) would say,
though he 'did not by any means wish to ask for a discussion
upon the sibject, yet he would say there never was a Com-
mittee who felt that they had amore difficult question to deal
with, or one who was more anxious to deal with the case ac-
cording to the spirit of their oaths. Had the question been
an Ertos4 one, there would have been no doubt on the
minds of any Committee, that the qualification was a bad one,
and though he had very seriously considered the question
many times since, he was quite satisfied that the vote he then
gave was perfectly in accordance with the spirit of the Act
of Parliament for Ireland which governed such a case.
Mr. S HEIL contended that the Honourable and Learned

Member for Dublin had given the best notice of the
presentation of the petition which it was in his power
to do—having had it inserted in the Orders of the Day. He
considered the qualification of Mr. O'Dwyer to be a per-
fectly good one.
Mr. Til'L EAN (we believe) complained of the manner in
which election committees were at present arranged, and
hoped that some amendment would take place in this respect.
Colonel PERCIVAL agreed with the Hon. Member who
lia 1 last spoken, that some alteration should be made in the
mode of conducting election petitions. He would not go the
length of the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary, who
asserted that a lease of lives renewable for ever was equivalent
to a perpetuity. He complained of the introduction by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, of the majority and minority,
and the mode in which they had been obtained. The Hon.
and Learned Member did not state that 200 electors had been
prevented, by intimidation, from coming in to vote for his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Plunkett), or that 116 of those who had
voted for the petitioner, had pledged themselves to vote
for his Hon. Friend. There ought to be some new regula-
tion with respect to Irish elections, to prevent the discredi-
table and disreputable interference of a certain body between
the candidate and the voters. He had no objection
to the reduction of the amount of qualification, provided
it was made a bone fide one, and liable for the
debts of the Hon. Member.—( Hear.) Let it be lower in
amount, but not _fictitious humbug qualification.—( Hear,
hear.) As in his opinion the petition contained an imputation
indirectly on the decision of the Committee, if it went to a
division, he should feel it his duty to vote against its reception.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN differed with the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Sligo, as to the qualification of the peti-
tioner, which he considered was a valid one. The only inti-
midation was, that of the entire sense of the people of Ireland,
which was opposed to the party which the Honourable and
Gallant Member supported. Why had he not brougl,t
a posse of Orangemen into Drogheda, which he hadflionoured
him (Mr. Grattan) with in Trim?—(l-sear, hear.) He had
seen them march with pistols under their cloaks and bludgeons
in their hands, headed by a clergyman armed with a loaded
pistol.—( Hear, from the Ministerial Benches.) He proceeded
at some length to point out the-difference in the law respect-
inp,[the qualification for Members of Parliament in England
and Ireland, and contended that in his view of the case the pe-
titioner had a good and bona fide qualification.
Mr. WYNNE did not object to the admissibility of the
prayer of the petition, but of the allegations it contained.
Mr. PLUNKETT gave the most distinct denial to all the
statements which accused him of intimidation. He would
not have taken the trouble, nor have-gone-44.41a. oxpance which
he had done to procure his seat, if it had been a-seat to be
procured only by the degree of violence which characterized
the supporter of the Hon. Member opposite. He was glad
of the opportunity of giving a distinct denial, to what he
trusted was only a mistaken report that such violence was
ever conducted or countenanced by the clergy of the
county of Meath, who should always have a sincere defender
in him. As to the law of the case, it seemed to be a doubt-
ful question to all the members of that House, of whatever
political hue that party might be. As to the majority
of voters prevented from voting, the Hon. Member for.
Meath was not one of that number. The constituency amounted
to 596-145 of whom did not vote, being prevented from
coming into the town. He did not complain of his opponent
or of the Hon. Member for Meath, as they had conducted
themselves towards him with that proper feeling which he
hoped would always prevail amongst gentlemen.
Mr. GRATTAN would call upon his Hon. Friend the
Member for Dublin to confirm the fact that Mr. Sullivan, the
High Sheriff of Meath, seized an avowed Orangeman in the
Court-house of Meath.
Mr. ROBINSON said this was not the place to try the
merits of the case, he should vote for the reception-of this
petition, which, in his opinion, did not impugn the conduct of
the Committee. The constitution of Election Committees of this
House required to be reformed, which was evident from the
mere phraseology which was used in the House, when it was
said such a man had a good or a bad Committee. He himself
had had circulars sent to him, because he held certain opinions,
requesting him to attend some Election Committees, which
circulars he treated, as he trusted every man would do who
was called upon to act as a juryman, and whose judgment
some one previously attempted to prejudice. He hoped
that early next session some influential Member would bring
in some plan for improving the character and constitution
of Election Committees.—( Hear. )

Mr. CHARLTON would support the reception of the pe-
tition, in the hope that it would lead to the adoption of the
suggestion of the Hon. Member who last addressed the House.
Mr. C. BULLER reminded the House that he was about
to bring forward a motion for the total alteratation
of the constitution of those Committees, and though
he did not expect that every Honourable Member
would agree to his plan, yet he 'trusted that all who
admitted the evil would lend their assistance in his attempt to
provide some adequate remedy..--( Hear.)
Mr. RONA YNE extremely regretted that the people of
Drogheda bad bad a representative thrust upon them merely
because they were ignorant of the election laws. He could

assure the House that bands of Cavan Orangemen had paraded '
the streets of Trim during the election.
Mr. MORGAN O'CONNELL corroborated this state-
ment.
Mr. O'CONNELL would not trouble the House with any
observations in reply, if the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Sligo had not introduced some topics which did not belong to
the subject. The Hon. Member spoke of intimidation in Ireland,
but though there were 16 or 17 petitions complaining of intimida-
tion, not one of them had been gone into before the Committee—
not one particle of evidence had been afforded on this subject,
and it was too bad for the Hon. and Gallant Member for Sligo
to have the advantage of tht:se party accusations, when an
opportunity had been given him of fully investigating the sub-
ject, and yet not a particle of evidence had been brought
forward to support it. This was the way in which the
people of Ireland were calumniated by a faction.—( Choers, and
cries of " Order" and " Question.") That was the question.
(Great cheering.) That debate would do a great deal of
good. Great advantage would arise from this discussion, as
there was not a single human being who had risen to
defend the present system of Committees. Every one
pronounced against it, and when he recollected that they
decided upon their oaths, and that they were constituted
the first gentry, and yet that all complained of them, he
would ask was it decent to continue this system? There
was a universal complaint against it.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
With respect to the Cavan Orangemen, he had himself seen
them enter Trim in procession, and he had never seen the
people more peaceable—they allowed the Orangemen to pass
through them without any interruption. He did not see any
fire-arms, nor any weapon in the possession of these Orange-
men, except concealed bludgeons.—( Hear, hear.) Before
they went home, however, one life was lost. The great ad-
vantage of this discussion would be, that. it would lead to the
amendment of the law, and he gave notice that when
the Bill of the Honourable Member for Middlesex went
into Committee, if the clause doing away with the
qualification should be lost, he would move that a qualifica-
tion in personal property, or money in the funds of the same
value, should be equal to a freehold qualification.—( Loud
cheers.) He would also move upon the subject of the lease
of lives, in order to take it away from Committees.
After a few words from Col. PERCIVAL, Col. Woon, and
Col. VERNER,
The SPEAKER put the question that the petition do lie
upon the table, which was agreed to.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE presented a petition from certain
individuals against the system of farming post-horses.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS—(IRELAND.)
. 111 r. "PERRIN gave notice of his intention to introduce a
Bill for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland.
--(Loud cheers from the Irish Ministerial Members.)
Mr. CHARLTON laid upon the table the protest of
Mr. Hogg, one of the Corporation Commissioners.
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

The HON. MEAIBER then gave notice that in consequence of
a groEs attack made upon him in the Morning Chronicle News-
paper, he should to-morrow move that the proprietor be called
to the Bar of that House.
Colonel PERCEVAL begged to know from the Hon.
and Learned Member the Attorney-General for Ireland whe-
ther his Majesty's Government intended to prosecute James
Slevin, against whom bills had been preferred and found for
murder ? _ _ _

Mr. PERRIN replied in the negative. He had consulted
with h's predecessor (Mr. Blackburne), and they were both
of opinion that on the principle that a man should not be tried
twice for the same oTence no prosecution would be instituted
by the Government- The Hon. Member entered at some
length into the history of the transaction in which Slevin was
implicated, but from the low tone in which he spoke we could
nit catch the particulars.
In answer to a question from Col. Perceval,
Mr. PERRIN said the Government did not intend to enter
a nolle prosequi.
Mr. O'CONNELL had a petition to present from Slevin,
but would not do so after the explanation that had been
given.---( Hear, hear.) He hoped that if any prosecution
took place, it would not be by private individuals, but by the
lonv officers of the Crown, or sonic responsible person autho-
rized by them.
Col. VERNER wished to ask the Attorney-General of
Ireland, if the sentence of transportation upon two persons
who were convteted at the last Armagh Session, of a violent
assault, bad been commuted.
Mr. PERRIN macina reply which was totally inaudible in
the gallery.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to ask whether any body had
been arrested, or whether any prosecution had been instituted
against the persons .who had burnt fourteen houses belonging
to Catholics, a few days after that assault?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was not aware of any
such circumstance. The assault took place on the 31st of
December or the Ist cf January last.
Colonel VERNER—As the lion. and Learned Member
has thought proper to introduce this subject on one or two
occasions,----( Cries of " Order, order," in the midst of which
the Hon. Member sat down.)
The SPEAKER called the Hon, Member to Order.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I want an answer to my question re-
specting the 14 houses which were burnt on the 14th of Ja-
nuary.—(Hear.)
Colonel VERNER said, that it was a fact that two of the
houses were set fire to by their occupants.
CORPORATION BILL.
In answer to a question from Sir R. PEEL,
• Lord J. RUSSELL said he should move the 3d reading
of the Corporation Bill on Friday, and Irish Church Bill would
be brought on on Monday next. The Report on the Corpo-
ration Bill would be brought up to-morrow, but if it could not
be read a third time on Friday, it would be necessary to bring
it on the first thing on Monday.
Mr. \SILKS thought it would be impossible in one meeting
to go through the various discussions.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think it would occupy so much
time. If it did it would then be time enough to take a dif-
ferent course.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. D. HARVEY gave notice, that he would move on the
report being brought up, that a sum of 40,0001. being the in-
terest on the million advanced to the Irish clergy be raised by
an additional charge upon the property of Ireland, subject to
the poll tax. —( Hear, hear.)
HIS MAJESTY'S ASSENT TO THE IRISH
CHURCH BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I have been directed by his
Majesty to announce to this House, that his Majesty has
been most graciously pleased to place at the disposal of Par-
liament his Majesty's interest in all benefices in the Church
of Ireland.—(Tremendous cheering.)
The Bill was then read a second time, and the House went
into Committee on the Bill pro forma.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Suppose the Corporation Bill is
not read a third time on Friday, and should take up some of
the time of the llouse on Monday, then he supposed this Bill
would not go into Committee till Tuesday.
Lord J. RUSSELL, certainly.
Mr. HUME hoped that if the Corporation Bill was not
read on Friday, that the House would meet for that purpose on
Saturday.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," with " Hear.")
THE MILITARY.
Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that unless some order was
issued from the Horse Guards to prevent soldiers not on duty,
wearing their side arms, he should, on the next occasion of
the House going into a Commitee of Supply, move that an
address be presented to his Majesty, praying that an order to
that effect be issued.
Lord J. RUSSELL suggested that it be referred to the
Committee sitting on Military Punishments.
(LEFT SITTING.) '