The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-08 00:00:00

one million was allowed for the purpose of diffusing the be,neFi
fits of education amongst the people. The Church in Irelan
was established upon a different principle from that upon
which the other establishments of Europe were based. It was

founded upon the principle of Protestant ascendancy. There
must be something wrong—there must be some injustice com-
mitted—in the government of a country, the inhabitants of
which were pitted one against the other—where the Roman
Catholics, which he would say in answer to the taunts of
some Hon. Members; were as honest, moral, and religious a
class of people as could be found on the face of the earth, but
who were placed in a position in which they felt themselves
almost compelled to entertain feelings of strong religious ani-
mosity against the members of that Church by which they
were so aggrieved and oppressed.—( Hear, hear.) Upon
what grounds, then, did the Hon. Members on the opposite
side of the House, who professed to have in view the attain-
ment of peace in Ireland, refuse to affirm a proposition, the
sanction of which by the Legislature would be the sole means
of putting an end to the government of faction in the country,
and to those divisions of party, and those religious animosities,
by which the country was now distracted ?—( Hear, hear.)
The only security for the tranquillity of Ireland was to govern
every class of her people by means of just and fair laws. If
he believed that the result of the motion before the House
would be the spoliation of the Church, or its abolition, he
should be the last man to vote for it.

Mr. SINCL AIR began by observing, that the motion of the
Noble Lord was, in his opinion, of a revolutionary character
and tendency.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side.) The
old proverb said " noscitur ex sociis." We might judge of
the nature of the proposition before the House by observing
the character of those by whom it was welcomed with joy.
It was not welcomed with joy by the clergy of the Church of
England.—(A laugh.) He was sorry to observe that the
lame of the clergy was always received with a sneer by the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite. By the clergy of the Church of
England the proposition was not welcomed with joy ; but it
was welcomed with joy by the Unitarian, who abjured the
church of God ; by the infidel, who denied the existence of a
Deity; and by the Papist, who sought the supremacy of his
own religion. All the clergy of the Church of England
looked at the resolution with dismay. The great mass of
society in the country regarded it with consternation and
dismay. The Hon. Member for Meath had made al-
lusion to Orangemen. It appeared to him (Mr. Sinclair)
that the Orangemen of Ireland were the most uncom-
promising friends of British connection ; the most intrepid
opponents of the repeal of the Union ; the greatest
advocates of the Established Church, and of the Pro-
testant faith. They united in the public defence. They
united, because they saw on the part of the Roman Ca-
tholics a determination to make every possible endea-
vour to exterminate the Protestant faith.—( Hear, hear.)
The House had been told that the adoption of this proposition
would tranquillize Ireland. He believed, on the contrary, that
its effect would be to ensure lasting dissentions in that coun-
try. He had heard a great deal of the advantage of religious
schools. He honoured all attempts at diffusing the benefits of
religion ; but he would not endeavour to do immediate good
by invading the remote rights of others. The right of the
clergy to tithes was as sacred as the right of landlords to their
estates ; and there was no distinction between them. Con-
trasting the days of Roman Catholic persecution in Scotland
with the present state of Ireland, he asked whether there was
any similar persecution on the part of the Protestants in Ire-
land ?—( Some Hon. Member observed that there had been.)
But was there now ? Was there any part of Ireland in which a
Roman Catholic chapel might not be built ? As to any surplus
of the funds of the Irish Protestant Establishment, he believed
that there would be none. The proposers and supporters of
such a motion as the present ought to beware. The com-
mencement was with the property of the Church ; the next
step would be to relieve leymee from the incumbrance of their
property ; eventually, all titles and distinctions would be abo-
lished, and Woburn Abbey might perhaps be converted into
one of Owen's national schools, placed under the superinten-
dence of Citizen John Russell the elder.—( A laugh.)
Lord F. EGERTON sail, the Noble Lord by whom the
resolution was proposed, and his friends, were undoubtedly a
formidable party. But there were other persons whom he
(Lord F. Egerton) must consider as the leaders in this busi-
ness. For instance, there was the Hon. Member for St. Al-
ban's. That Hon. Gentleman went much further than the No-
ble Lord, for he valued the principle in the resolution because
it would bring under the control of the State, meaning of the
House of Commons, all corporate property whatever. The
Hun. Member for Meath had termed this question a renova-
tion of the Catholic Question. Now one of the great promo-
ters of Catholic Emancipation, to whom he (Lord F. Eger-
ton) had listened with that delight and enthusiasm with which
a young mind ever received the impression of eloquence--he
meant Lord Plunket—had contended on that occasion that one
of the great results of emancipation would be to induce the
Catholic to maintain inviolate the principles, ay, and the pro-
perty, of the Protestant Church in Ireland. He (Lord F.
Egerton) had given his humble assistance to Catholic Eman-
cipation on that ground, and he therefore felt bound in honour
and consistency to maintain the rights of the Protestant
Church in Ireland. It had not been his intention to address
the House at all on the question ; but when those who opposed
the resobition were taunted with proceeding to ring the highly
objectionable, unless indis, ensably necessary, alarm-bell,
" the Church is in danger," he felt bound to say that, in his
opinion, the Church was in danger; and that present events
were a justification of a recourse to that expedient.—( Ilear. )
Mr. CAYLEY expressed his belief that the cry " he
Church is in danger" had never been raised but from factious
motives He could look upon the resistance to the Resolu-
tion in no other light than as an attempt to force another reli-
gion down the throats of the Irish people. For his own part
he desired to see the Church Establishment of Ireland cut
down to the wants and wishes of the people; for he could
not but disapprove of a Church Establishment in any country,
the effect of which was to produce general discontent.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, the present Resolu-
tion, besides involving all the objectionable principles of the
former Resolutions, went far beyond them, and would he at-
tended with results so widely different, that no necessity
existed for those who voted for the former Resolutions voting
for this. He did not mean to put himself in competition with
the Noble Lord the Member for Devonshire as a statesman ;
but be would humbly suggest to him the question, whether
so large a minority, perhaps the largest that had ever divided
on a question of this importance, should be called upon to
vote on a proposition of this kind without being afforded
the means of clearly seeing to what it was to lead.---( Hear.)
The proposition was to take the surplus of the Church re-
venues, supposing any existed, and apply them to the pur-
poses of education. Now these welt, propositions perfectly
distinct, without any natural or necessary connection, and
which, fairly to be considered, must be separately consi-
dered.—( Hear, hear.) As regarded the extension of edu-
cation, he would not be behind any man in advocating that ob-
ject. He owed too much to the great institutions of this coun-
try connected with education, both school and college, not to
desire that the benefits he had derived from them should be as
widely diffused as possible. But was it necessary to apply the
property of the Church to that object? Would no education
be valued by the Irish scholar but that which came from a
schoolmaster whose salary was paid from the income of the
clergyman ? Was knowledge only acceptable there, unless ac-
quired in somewhat the same way as forbidden fruit ? If there
was any deficiency of the means of education in Ireland,
which he had not heard established, let funds be provided to
supply the deficiency ; but let them not be voted from the sur-
plus revenues of the Church, till they had ascertained that
there was something to vote away. According to the Noble
Mover, care was to be taken to meet the wants of the Church
—but according to the Hon. and Learned Member for Tip-
perary, the Church was bloated and dropsical ; and another
Hon. Member described it as a wide spread nuisance, which
ought to be wholly abated. The similies of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Tipperary were, he must say, somewhat
unsavoury, and perhaps he was not so good a physician as he
was a lawyer, and might not be aware, that although the cure
prescribed for the dropsy was tapping, it was almost immedi-
ately hazardous, and ultimately universally fatal.—(Laughter.)
He supposed, however, that the Honourable and Learned
Member did not mean to carry his simile so far as the death
of the patient. But what could be the meaning of the Ho-
nourable Member, who spoke of the Church as a wide-spread
nuisance ? Whatever might be the moderation of the views
of the Noble Lord, dill not this language indicate the existence
of the same fierce, unrelenting spirit that in former times cried
out Delenda est Carthago l_( Hear, hear.) He should like
to see the plan by which the Noble Lord proposed to lop off
different branches of the Church ? The Noble Lord, the
Member for Lancashire, had been asked how he so easily saw
the necessity of schedule A in the Reform Act, and could
see none in the Church ?—but in the Reform Bill discussion,
schedule A was before them, containing each borough to be
disfranchised, with the reasons for disfranchising each. Let
them have the schedule A of the Church, and they should
know what they were about. Now they could not tell what
they were next to have, except that, idging by the majority
of the speeches on the other side, there would, if the princi-
ple of this resolution were carried into full effect, be nothing
left to do, for the whole Church would be gone._( Hear.)
He asked the Noble Lord how he proposed to carry his prin.
ciple into effect? How did he intend to embody his resolu-
tion in the Tithe Bill ? Would he be content with a short
clause, setting forth the principle ?—or did he mean that the
important measure brought forward by his Majesty's Govern-
ment should wait for the gradual developements that were,
week by week, or month by month, to proceed from the
Church Commissioners? The Noble Lord, on a former
occasion, opposed a proposition similar in principle to the
present, in order to avoid a collision with the Upper House.
—( Hear, hear.) He did not remind him of this for the
purpose of reproaching him with inconsistency, but to show
that to come into collision with the other House was a mis-
fortune which all sides deprecated, and desired, if pos-
sible to avoid. Why, then, should they come into collision
with the Lords for the assertion of a mere barren principle ?
Did the Noble Lord think that, by not waiting for the Tithe
Bill, but by taking this opportunity of bringing the House to
some resolution upon this subject, he had hit upon an inge-
nious expedient that would render it impossible for his Right
Hon Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) after the de-
claration he had made, to carry on the Government ?—( Hear. )
Upon this part of the question it did not become him to speak
much, but he had a right to adopt as independent atone as the
Hon. and Learned Member for Edinburgh. I sought no I
(continued the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,) I sought not
a seat in this House—l sought not office under the Govern-
ment--I derive no benefit from either. lam placed here in a
situation of independence quite as great as that of any other
Hon. Member, and I can assure the Noble Lord that as far
as 'I am concerned, if he can form an Administration that
will perfect, that will purify, and not destroy the institutions
of this great country, I, for one, will cheerfully resign my
place to some Member of that Administration that will pos-
sess the confidence of the country, and that will not atise that