The Sun.
London, England, 1835-09-01 00:00:00

---....-...._ •
The c
HOUSE OF' COMMONS.
' l'P AKER took the Chair at Twelve o'clock. ,s- -
1, CORPORATION REPORNI PETITIONS.
~ tr. STRUTT presented a petition from 2,lelbourne, in Derby-
i',u' e, thinking the House for passii--tne Cerperatieti &kith and
' 'isb Church. Bills, and praying" 0106 Mast rill asks maws strong
steps to ensu•:e the success of these theMees, ,
Petitiors to the same effect were ISteSented by Lord J. Russets.,
from
~ Drinstable ; Mr. Tisonssfitv. from Wolverhampton; and by
Tni"r. Clay, from the parish of Bethnal-green. The litter Gentle-,
at) said—he was sorry the Nlinistry had gene so far in a compro-
Inise• However as they had done so, he would not oppose thesis,
fur he thought.the- country would be benefited by the Bill even now,
though he wag hound to say, that from the spirit he saw in the
People of the _Metropolis, they would have stood by, and nobly sup
Ported the Government in passing the Bill as it left the-House of
Commons.—( Cheers. )
Mr. NVILKS presented a similar petition from Bath, which
gentlemen
was warmly, supported by Mr. Roebuck ; it was signed by I,oooffi
i , every one of whom had axed their residences,to their
gnatures. He would take that opportunity of stating that the
L:Petition presented last night from Bath in favour of this Bill had
yeis got up
surreptitiously, and it was signed by persons who
ru'l°lbe, been
entrapped- into signing it.
ous
Sir W. TT said the petition was sent to him nume-
vide.d FOLLETT
signed, and every signature sated the residence of the indi-
. -
-
~,, Mr. SCARLETT would take that opportunity of stating from
2i,,orrnation quite es good as that of the Hon. Member opposite,
t`ll.at in many parts of England hady persons had become
I"'atily to the amended Bill, as they thought that the party on
itl,etAl.jort.h e r side had ;one good deal too
. far.—(
..0h !) He believed
land.('' onserrative Principles ware rapidly gaining ground in En:_
MART thought it would be more sat isfactori I's the House
ttthe Hon. Member had stated his authority, or etdduced any in-
.„-nee, instead of making so general an assertion, The Hon.
alernber had not eitesi a single instance in sulseort of his assertion,
and so far as his (Sir. Ewart's) opinion w sent, e.nnclr him—(Hear, he was sHureearhoe
would he eonfi'inried by every lion. -I.'sesober near
hth,tat then:, was not a shadow of iountlatien in point of feet for
Le.ii-n)11, Member's statement.—(Htar, hear. )
inh I,r• HUNIE presented a PPAition sig,ned by nine thousand
aditants of Leicester, ag"d to at a public meeting at which I
'waste Honourable Mendesr of that House had presided. There
a very, unanime,us expression of opinion at that meeting,
and he believed le,s same existed very aenerally.thronghout Eng-
-1j04,1: Jie,llo7.:Zi, therefore, the Hon. 3-le:ober ear Norwich would
ma --.: him t .ir. Hume) to dissent from the statement he had just
4,,e• Ple mild only account for it by the circumstance of the
". Member having lived so long in a; Tory atmosphere, that, he
Wouldt,n,, 'neither sec nor hear anything but what accorded with' his
4 rl es.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh. ) He believed the people
;;- is
~ of -.lngland were disposed to go much farther than Hon. Nlem-
.ie; .45 supposed, and if that House made a compromise of the prin-_
(Near f the Bill, the, people would - net thank them for it.,-:,-
) The petitioners stated that they viewed with indig-
nation and disgust the manner in which the Bill had been mutilated
t the House of Lords. They prayed that House not to accept the
fle I. and to exercise the control it, possessed over the public
Purse, by withholding the supplies until " the whole Bill" had been
Passed. So fa! as had come to his (Mr. Humes) knowledge in
eiverY part of tunas countr bl' eetinn had been held,
y w tre pule m ~
thereatas an imous expression of dissatisfaction and discon-
ieint the conduct of the House'of Lords, and he could tell that
b 7,use thats they were raising a question
.which would teach them
e'atcre long the necessity of yielding to theslemands of the people.
"". POTTER had been requested to support the prayer of the
Petitin, and he did so, being fully convinced that it expressed the
ti)„jaions of a majority of the inhabitants of that town.
tb 'lr. HALFORD would remind the Hon. Member opposite that
upuittioaawsn. of Leicester returnee., two Members -of different political
Sir' EWART made a few observations which we did not dis-
tinctly bear.
heaNlr CUT-11111T:RT RIPPON presented a petition from Gates-
billl,' .exP:essing disgust and indignation at the manner in which the
inise",!d• ()een mutilated.--
If that House entered into any compro-
-I,Atth respect to the Bill, they would destroy the conficience re-
°a",;,," in them b the people. the Hon. Member then presented
a "ctioll to the samey effect from NVillesden in Durham.
SCOTCH CHURCH COMMISSION.
,el,,u
teh answer to a question put by Mr. SINCLAIR respecting the
LChurch Commission, . •
casian•erd J. RUSSELL stated that he had received two communica-
A s ;smell the' subject from Scotland ; one from the General
Csi:„.7l complaining that there were thresspersons in that
Eoss',7,lssion who held opinions -which were- adverse to the
ofs'ulished Church ; and . another from -the dissenting body
.4,,,,ileotland complaining that there/cffas only one person of their
term Principles in the Commissielvand that they feared their in-
. ti;s would not have fair Pray. ,He believed that eight out of
e eleven Commissioner', were firmly attached to the Scotch
chtirch, and that of 'tic other three one only could be consi-
tieLed as a deci'.!.c.d. Dissenter, but it was not his inten-
til - to alter the Commission, on account of either of
ese representations.—( Hear hear.) The terms of the Com-
ZiMission h$ been misunderstoo'd ; its power extended only to ear-
ng-en-ail inquiry into the means of religious worship and educa-
ZithPn,•but was not intended at all to interfere with the discipline of
er Churchmen or Dissenters. With regard to surplice fees, he
, Nel
forwarded a communication .to the
_Commissioners, which, if
e sore the uked,
session clo
Mr. WILKS sought as there was an equal number of Dis-
'enters and Chrsrehmen in Scotland, it would be a little too hard
uat to have otse Dissenter on the Commission.
CORPORATION REFORM BILL.
for Lord JOHN RUSSELL having moved the Order of the Day
the isirther consideration of the amendments of the Lords on
~e Corporation Reform Bill, proceeded to say that he had
bst'sn,sitie'red what had, fallen from the Hon. Member for Chester
h.,- night, apon-the -duty of ths. Revising Tr.'4,ri:Arrs, and, as
to' intended to introduce an amendment on the 6th clause
is. Meet the difficulty, he should not oppose this part of the
,n'!‘4m,l amendment. Another reason which made it unneces-
si,' was, that, according to other amendments made by the Lords,
I;:e4:_ibidonbnedaries, of many of the boroughs would be kept in a state
~,o".'en could not ultimately be approved of by Parliament. It
necessary, therefore, to introduce a Bill in the next
th:sien to alter the boundaries of these boroughs, and
that alteration would, of course, affect a
.number of ot the Corporations included in this Bill. Therefore, if there was
ttsedi;ivsion into wards, it would be necessary to legislate so that
time
..ii istons should be properly introduced. ; and,. in the mean
lea
~ he did not think that any great mischief could
.accrue from
"'R the znatter in the Courts of the Revising Barristers, as ap-
rroved of b
agree t y the King in Council. He proposed that they should
~,. the next c
lause—Cla N. The Clause was agreed to.
QUALIFICATION CLAUSE.
Lord T
n -- •'. RUSSELL said that the only amendment he meant to
thetuPose lil this clause, related to the councillors lists. He would take
tat °Fiujunity, as he saw the councillors' test mentioned in the
tats w of the clause, of explaining the course he proposed. to
at e with regard to the qualification, and his reason for postponing
t4Present the consideration of this clause. He was.clisposed to
sv4',as he stated yesterday, the qualification of 1,000/. in boroughs
whatshould be d'y'cled into four wards or more, and of
whain boroughs whichlshould be divided into less than four wards.
quail he Proposed was, that there should be no other security for
li,a-ici'ieation than whatwas usually taken, viz., that persons should
theyekeuttLeclaration upon the subject, being liable to a penalty if
th 9, , su without being duly qualified.—(Loud cheers.) He
vantZnt that this alteration would be attended with great ad-
by'
the
though no doubt it would be considered. an.argumen
suY th ilunte degree, narrowing the qualification introduced
I:aisedasaribov
iests e I",_se of Lords, but then they would get rid of the
-4 W 4%-ttlie sixth of the rated householders.—( Hear, hear.)
a ,P7T:er that a certain portion of the burgesses should be
Persot, ~ - others, and therefore he proposed. that only when
tube ealleTtielected a Councillor, then aunaldaetdthtoatateitmase ocnouynei
llor.
ll th rni to prove that ewa q
shoeld ks e e eetion took place, all the burgesses in the borough
a right
,-v considered as on an equality, and no person should have is es s _
time for
ow ale a al )"lam on the list of Councillors. You are much be-
showi ' and are excluded totally from the list." The far better
alertedng qualification was when a man was so far trusted as to be
„ctat„..o by his fellow burgesses ; and when he came to make his de-
i h, se
I a should he required to prove that he was qualified.
the
liiere might be persons desirous of avoiding taking any part in
tgoe:-:itenjuiPal government, or upon whom the choice of the bur-
fore it might not fall, and these should be left undisturbed. There-
,. e teltl,ll:l,biaeuuseee;essary in some degree, and in some instances,
and lie'
proposed, when they had gone through
_,"? other parts of the Bill, to introduce into the clause which
's&ald persons in holy orders, the qualification of 1,0001. and
and to have out the qualification of the sixth of the rated
householders.
In ails,
LO Esther to an observation of Mr. Wynne, the CHANCEL-
-11 of the EXCHEQUER said there were difficulties in whatever
CHANCEL-
pro ion the House should adopt.
Sir ROBERT PEEL apprehended that it was wholly unneces-
sary .
, .0 protract any discussion on the present question, the prin-
ciple of qualification being conceded by the Noble Lord. In his
(Sir Robert Peel's) opinion whatever was the simplest test of pro.
Perty was the best test. He did not think the selection of one-six's,
af the rate payers by any means a good test.—(Cheers.) Veiti-,
respect to the qualification in the Jury Bill, there a certain nie.,,lbel
eat tion was required, and no objection was made to the sele „tun af.
JurYnien from a certain body of persons. There the le- st test was
,PPlied a test which could not be applied in the:
t Persons occupying houses with
to rye on Juries.—((;beers.) ln the prs_.-
se
fifteen -, present case,
sindows, were fit
would be best to .
is give an alternative pent case he thought it
is
nu • •
ens, hi objection to abandon the oi, e:ualification and he should
'', sixth of the highest rate-pay-
_czt at the same time,
.he
.ought it would be of advantage
_to, add ttou
.1 the rating to a certal7., amount.---( Cheers.) He did not see
7_7110
_individuals occupsfsilg •
houses, rated or 401. a-year,
o.suld. be enabled tr., fill the office of a Councillor, because he Could
I:"ersons, highly respectable risen, occupying such
premises
roan`,
Cheers; ' NTl"...‘s could not state that they were - worth 1,0051---(Loud
Cheers; money having been worth
in trade,__( Cheers. )
lioet.t,b'mghf, that by adopting the tourse ha In.d suggested,- the
eve
,eoW.ould agree to a test that would bo easily proved, and would
L `..,t12(15e, who certainly deraved it, a voicein the Council.
1.4
son, treed so far
pat2_!e". JOHN RUSSELL was glad to find that the Right Hon.
MP lterr:t (idin.6
should be tth him.--( Cheers.) He felt himself bound
to the qualification of the 1,000/. or the 500/.,
''" that persons who paid a certain amount of rating
(Chef,. 4 qualified, was an improvement in the qualification
eui,
,al.)--and therefore he should be disposed, when the House
tic, 4"e't Into
cation the eiscussion of this question, to agree to this alterna-
e qualifi
Nis, GRO • .
TE said, that sLthough it was evident there was
uroaeoisti laudable wish on the part of the House to smooth the
WhenP e of qualikation as far as it could, yet he was afraid,
SOYwgentl
1 ..ell began to try to make the principle work well,
psfrei.or dne sure to do something which would be fatal to that
ur it ihaEt—:(Cheers)---and he thought there was no greater proof
posite. nln what had been stated by the Right Hon. Baronet op-
blight belie had stated that he could clearly conceive that a person
am
,_
,eighly honourable and a most respectable tradesman,
Might , not able to say he was worth 1000/.—(Hear, hear. t)
rwas ot that observation equally apply to the person
coMpelled to say he was worth 500/. ? Notwithstanding
(feel altlt, dative proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, he did not
Lor.,,t enciled to vote for the principle he had laid down.-
- , ~ cheers. 1
-et •
siti nROEBUCK thought he should be enabled to state a prope-
ls/o°_, More desirable and beneficial than that laid down by the
beingso.,!aLord himself. In small towns it would be found impossible
I)Nr',`,',„ sufficient number of councilmen worth 1,000/., and that
ease, what bad been done? Why, it was proposed that
wo:,"_, I' . places 500/. should be sufficient ; that, in his opinion,
bay for to
ats"ta, in many cases be utterly impracticable. Upon the
his _ occasion almost of his addressing the House, he stated
be, that the only ,roper test of a man's caper
to sifat°:,:n office, was his free election to it by his townsmen ; and
Plnim! the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) freely coincided'

Mr. D. W. HARVEY trusted the HOUse would not be led away
by any suggeStion, however plausible. The Right.Hliie.
who had thrown out the one so eagerly taken np Noble Lord,
said it would get rid of the quslitkatialt roll of One-siXili of the rate-
payers ; but it was to be ensidered that rat in g- in the eoUtiiit,d-tta
not on the same basis as in Whitehall or rine're
16/. Was not -only, in a great mati,y plaa,el., a high rating but a
high rent, and there would be many towns in which not tee houieS
would be found rated at the full amount: AccOrding, td tfle pi ~
position a person in Bath, which had fotti• ti-ard opt Be. Weirtn
8001.—there he could Oct he A Niktltillbr, for 1,000/. was the qua-
lification ; but let him go to Frome, which was
.divided into two
wards, and there he was immediately elevated into weiikhi, resit
station, and intelligence, none of which he petteltsed in Bath, and
there he was perfectly fit for the stetson ,he could not fill in Bath.
He trusted there would be a Sjission upon the principle of a qualifi=
cation, though he w
:.
would be sorr "'1,(1 be sorry to seethe Bill lostby a majority, Ile
7 see the Bill lost, but he ilia hope there •Notild
be a:,;on, in order to shew the people that this amendment
great boon was ;litch them by those who delighted in being
called the Tyibiitteh Of the people.—(Laughter.)
Lord AMIN RUSSELL was anxious to stty a. Ceti ttiircls iii
ittisWer to what had fallen from the Oka Gthilettleit Who had
last addressed the Hone, lie bogged te state most distinctly,
that, in agreeing to the amendments now in the Bill, and in pro-
posing others 0' the same import, he did so solely with the view of
passing what was an efficient measure notwithstatitling all ittiglatil
defects.—(Cheers) He would still ebillider himself at liberty, nay
he might feel it his ditty, if by any chance the Bill was not passed, to
introduce the old Bill in all its perfect integrity—(Loud cheers)==
totally denying that he had made any concessive in print.iplej dr
any one that was binding upon him—(Load vbeers‘ )
Mr. WARD hoped a division Woold hot take place upon this
question, for it was not is fair test of a man's opinion in a ease like
the present-4 hear.)—for he believed that ,•-the
clause was unwise and non-effectual ; far It WOUld be binding only
upon the virtuous, and would be disregarded by the vicious.—
(Hear, hear.) Yet, though he thought all that, still he was
unwilling to risk the fate of the Bill upon such alit'npixiitititi
and wvttld vote against it ; therefort3 Ins thetight a .division
wealld not be a fair test of the feelieo of the House.—(llear.)
They had already had a ilitittion upon the same principle, and it
was well known, to the: country that it was no clause of their's.
He always with: great regret differed with the Hon. Member for
London (Mr. Grote), but on this occasion, for these, amontlhients
.were taken both by the Ministry and that liaise under protest,
and now that the concessions of the Government were met in so
`conciliatory a spirit by the other side, the debate had taken quite a
different turn, and he Weeld not like to see a division upon the point.
The manner in which the Right Hon. Baronet accepted the pro-
posed concessions had given a totally different turn to the whole
discussion.—( Heir. ) It hatl'itidaced him (Mr. Ward), at all
events, from giving expresaitnt to 'his opinions upon the practical
difficulty which a Reformed Muse of Commons experienced in
working with an enrefonned hereditary House of Peers.—( Hear,
hear.) He was satisfied that if that House had taken a strong and
decided course, they would have the sense of the country in their
favour.—(" Hear,' and cheers.) But as the Hon. Members en
the opposite side had, through him whom they should always look
up to as their legitimate leader, if they consulted their own inte-
rests—(Ministerial cheers)—expressed their willingness to accept
the concessions made by the Government in that House, it put an
end to all discussion upon that point. He (Mr. Ward) objected to
many of the concessions that had been made—such as the appoint-
ment of Aldermen for six years ; and yet he was willing to make
these concessions is order to shew the spirit of conciliation that ex-
isted in that Hr id that thr • did not wish to enforce their
pf the other party,—and above
Itirnately rejected, it would not
On these, grounds he (Mr.'
to
proposition' of his Ma--
tothe qualification, there 'were
'Whe'ther there should be one,
mode. Now in his ( Mr. W's )
Of Lords was oue of the Very
educe him to consent twit.
so narrow-minded, and he
consign the government of
,Cheering)—in .sayieg that.
governing body should be
. merit, but an oligarchy of
a laugh)—it was introducing so
Imong the distinctions that un-
iortunately already existe=d" between the rich and the poor, that
nothing would ever induce him (Mr. Ward) to cortsent to it.-7'
(Cheers.) But the qualification clause assumed a different aspect
when they looked at that proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet;
and if it was essential that there should be a qualification, he (Mr.
Ward) was not unwilling to concede that point. He conceded it
however under a protest, for its inefficiency and impolicy remained
in his (Mr. Ward's) opinion unchanged.—( Cheers. )
. Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to observe, that what he had
yesterday
.stated relative to these amendments was only his own
opinions, and not those of the Hon. Members who agreed with
him on most occasions. He had attempted to adhere as closely
as possible to the course of discussion, but at the same time he
was perfectly prepared to acquiesce in the amendment which he
must observe he had not suggested, provided the consequence
would have been to effect an amicable arrangement.--( Hear. )
The. Hon. Member for Southwark had alluded to the clause as if
been pruposeti by him, but the effect of adupcing ins k Sir
R. Peel's) suggestion, would be to widen the sphere from
which the governing body would be selected. It would he as
well, he thought, to make up their minds as to whether
they should divide or not.—(No, no.) But if the Hon. Gentleman,
who pressed the amendment was so much afraid of success, he
thought he would not press it.--(Hear, and a laugh.) It would
be rather awkward for the Hon. Member to go into a division upon
the qualification, trembling for fear he should be successful.—
( Hear, and laughter.)
Mr. CLAY thought the arguments of the Hon. Members for
London and Bath were unanswerable; but it would be better not
to press the amendment to a division. He was against the prin-
ciple of qualification, but it was necessary to make some com-
promise. He begged to ask the Noble Lord whether there would
be any test as to the amount of qualification on any scrutiny, and
he would be glad also to know whether the Noble Lord meant to
accede to the alteration in the qualification proposed by the Right
Hon. Baronet?

Lord J. RUSSELL replied that he was willing to give that pro-
vision up respecting the lists being made out, consisting of one-
sixth of the highest rate-payers on the burgess-roll. He was will-
ing to make the qualification 1,0001. or 5001., with this alternative,
that if the party was not worth 1,0001., a rating of 40/. should suf-
fice, and it he were not worth 500/., a rating of 20/. would quali-
fy: His disposition was to admit the proposition in the manner
suggested by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, but he thought
they should take as low a rate as possible.
Sir R. PEEL would suggest that the rating should be at 30/.
and 15/.—(Hear. )
Mr. BERNAL said there was no man in the House who was so
positively opposed to this doctrine of qualification as he was, be-
cause he considered it useless, and he was sure it would prove
inoperative, except that it would be the cause of discords and
feuds throughout the country. If one man swore or made
a declaration that he was worth 1,0001. or 500/., another
of the same business would consider him to be his rival,
and that if he did not make the same declaration, he would be com-
mitting an act of suicide and insolvency. Again, in many places
there were men of property living in great respectability, who occu-
pied houses that were rated no higher than 101. per annum.—
( Hear, hear.) It would, therefore, be necessary to have a gra-
nated scale of qualification. He entreated his Hon. Friend not to
press fora division—no doubt, those Right Hon. Gentlemen in
whom they confided, his Majesty's Ministers, had some good reason
fiir the course they were about to adopt ; yet, if he could prevail
upon them, he would have them pause bfore they persisted in this
course.
Mr. BAINES suggested the same criterion of qualification as
that in the Reform Bill. Under these circumstances the criterion
was so fallible that it was not one upon which they could regulate,
or fix a standard of property or respectability, if measured by pro-
perty ; and therefore he begged to offer a suggestion, viz., that in-
steadof a rate, it should depend upon the actual amount of property
as far as it could be approached, whatever that property might be.
He would mention one circumstance which bore very strongly upon
the measure, to show that the qualification would be of no great
sets of officers, one
advantage. In the place to which he had alluded, there were two
/'e.terned upon a qualification, and the other
upon the ancient I,:inci
ple of paying rates and taxes (as we under-
stood.) The otficers who required no qualification were in every
respect P: respe
Fteoalot
u ctable as those who were required to have a quail&
ni:l:He, therefore, did not believe that the qualification would
y great advantage. As he wasfavourable to an accommoda-
r:hhich would preserve the Bill in all its integrity as to its great
principles, and as it would secure the success of the Bill by making
some sacrifice, he was not disinclined tosacrifice, and if he was to vote he
would not vote in such a way as to be a test of his feeling upon the subject.
He would vote in favour of the qualification, though, in his opinion,
the Bill would be 'much better without it. He would entreat the
Hon. Member for London not to press this matter to a division, as
it would not effect the purpose he had in view ; viz., to show what
was the disposition of the House upon this point.
Mr. Sergeant WILDE—Upon the subject of going to a division,
he was satisfied that the result would be that it would lead
to an impression that a very considerable number of Members
did not disapprove of the principle, because they voted in the ma-
jority from tar different reasons. With respect to the question
itself he, for one, was very much gratified at the course taken by
the. Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth. He did not
show any desire to triumph, but to forward a really practical mea-
sure of great pulslic utility ; and this measure going to the country
with his sanction would go recommended, and would become effi-
cient to a much greater degree than it otherwise would be.
Hear, hear, hear.) He was, therefore, desirous of acqui-
escing in any suggestion of his upon this occasion, because he was
satisfied that in his suggestions lie acted perfectly bona fide, and
not from any desire of impeding the fair effect of the Bill.—( Hear.)
Mr. WALLACE would like to know why there was to be a
different measure meted out to England, from that which had been
measured out for Scotland. They had no qualification there, they
wanted none, and the whole system worked well without it. He
was convinced that agitation would not cease till this country was
put on an equal footing with Scotland.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL would not detain them for many minutes. It
was always wise to divide upon a difference of principle, as every
man thought it of sufficient importance to have his own opinions known
and to know how many would vote with him. But upon this
question it will mark no such distinction, as he was himself as op-
posed to a qualification as any man could be, and yet he would vote
for it, and many others had said they would do the same. He did
it for the purpose of compromise, and in order to put others
exceedingly in the wrong if they should reject a good measure.
He thought the qualification, as it came front the House of Lords,
was totally undeserving the consideration of the House, and he
was happy to see that it was thrown over by everybody. He did
net see how human ingenuity could have gone in inquisitorial op-
pression as the qualification of the House of Lords.—(Cheers.)
So absurd and unjust a qualification he had never heard of.—
(Loud cheers.) It had been attributed to him in the Morn-
ing Chronicle that though he condemned the system be would
vote for it. He had said no such thing ; but what he
had said was, that lie would vote for the qualification as
part of the compromise.—( Cheers.) He was glad to find that the
system was to be fully changed.
Colonel SIBTHORP denied that all objected to the amendments
of the House of Lords. He for one did not, ,it most cordially
agreed to them.—(Cheers.)

--ci`,„.%!ELL had no objection to make an exception of the
'at4 h,
trle
IBTlf —RP tins, glac to set a chance of
dayisiiiit,becitise it gOe 31CMIA`rS sidtl iffi oanctn.
thi! Wise to hear their sentiments.— Cileer.4t fig OVreo ikeSe.;
6;mi the Houk to recollect that when two dogs quarrelleA.l third
bone.—(Great laughter.)
fl.l are 4,o7ifttiftiqn, clause the most objee-
pro I:4',4i,i44tr&pteeetilet
tionaoie an n pernicious atteration , , the
Bill by the House of Lords.—(Cheers.) By that a,t4.44441 iNss
who had wealth only could be qualified.—( Cheers.) Now he weilltl
ask what qualification was required for a person to become Lord
Chancellor—nothing but talents, Supposing that the person to
hold that high office. was required to be worth 00,0001, or 40,0001.,
what, he Would ask, would have become of n Noble and Learned
Lord in the other House, who had taken so prominent a part In the
present Bill ?—(Loud cheers.) If the greatest officer in the
country Was appointed without any qualitie,ation, why should not these
poor town councillors be elected on the same principle.—(Cheers.)
Ltird JOHN RUSSELL said, that as they had gone so much
lilto the. qUalikation clause, lie should, at the aloe of the present
diflenSsion, propose to go back to the 25th clause,
The clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then proposed the consideration of
the 25th chaise, and moved as an amendment, that the words
" Preacher;' or " Teacher," in any Dissenting Congregation
should be struck out, and the following words should be added:—
" or being the regular Minister of any Dissenting Congregation,"
Mr, GOULBOURN did not think the words were sufficiently
eomprehensive—there were many dissenting ministers who were
hot regular ministers.
Mr. EWART suggested that the words teacher and preacher, as
they now stood, were perfectly sufficient.
Att. \MKS war fully satisfied with the words proptss..bythe'
Noble Lord. There were many men who, though preschers 'ot4
teachers, were not regular Ministers, but followed another calling.
He wished only the regular ministers of congregations to be ex-
titided,
Mr. WYNNI suggested that the clause might lie so worded as
to he confined to those preachers who had a license.
Mr. WlLKS'said there were no so things as licenses to preach
all that was required was that a notice should be served upon the
Clerk of the Pette'e, or lodged in the Bishop's Court, stating that
such a building-was intended to be used as a place of worship.
Mr. BAINES would propose that the word "separate" should
be inserted begpre congregation.
Mr. BORVHWICK said there many intinerant preachers in the
Wesleyan,Etcrsiiasion who made their whole livelihood by the sacred
profession;hut who would not, as the clause was proposed to be
amendeakbe excluded from these offices.
Mr. WELKS thought it would exclude all who ought to be so.
Mr. ROBINSON thought the words proposed' perfectly satis-
factory, and he hoped no more time would be lost upon the matter.
Mr. GOULBURN suggested that the amendment should be,
" whether a Dissenting Minister or not, appointed to any congre-
gation." He thought all should be equally excluded, and that the
amendment should be extended to shut out all preachers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would false all
the objections that had been urged, and would add another from
himself. If the amendment were agreed to, it would exelode all
the Society of Friends, for they were all preachers, and the effect of
that clause would be to exclude every quaker.
The clause as amended was then agreed to.
Lord JOHN. RUSSELL in the qualification clause proposed to
insert these words, " unless he shall be seized or possessed of real or
personal property to the following amount, that is to say, in all bo-
roughs which by the provisiOns of-this Act are to be divided into
four or more wards; 1,0001., and in all boroughs which shall be
divided into less than four wards, or not divided into wards,
5001." After these words he should propose to insert the alternative
qualification of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite.
Mr. EWART thought the smaller qualification might safely be
taken in the largest towns. He thought 1600/. was much too high.
Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON Objected, altogether to the
,principle of qualification. In the town which-he had the hanottr
to: repreient a qualification of 10001. or stoet to the aftiolist of
1,1001 ssas required, and these being obliged. to swear to that
amount had deterred a great number, of most respeetable
persons in the ' town from • takiing office.—( Hear. )-4 He
hinhself wets aware of not less than 27 who continued in the Com-
mission having sworn that they possessed; the required amount of
property until they actually-became insolvent. He believed it
would not work well in towns, and he would be glad to see it'alto-
gether done away with.
Mr. WILLIA3IS would give his most decided objection to the
qualification clause. The Noble Lord had last night spoken so pon-
erfully against it that he had hoped that he altogether had abandoned
it. There was one point to vyhich he wished to call the attention
of the House. The other House had shown a great attachment to
ancient customs in discussing the principles of that Bill. Now it so
happened that in none of the ancient charters was that qualification
necessary.—(Hear, hear.) The city of London possessed one of
the most important and ancient charters, and in none of the corpo-
rate officers was qualification required. The Common Csiuncil
had the power of establishing a qualification, and although
they had been five hundred years a governing body, in no
one instance had they attempted to establish such a test.
It could not be proved that in any of the Corporations qualifications
were required for any office. It was remarkable, that in the city
of London persona might be disq*iiiied from serving some effices ;
as, for instance, a person elected to serve as an Alderman, would be
disqualified if he swore that he was not worth 15,000/. ; or if elected
a Lord Mayor, he would be disqualified if he swore himself not
worth 20,000/. As to the Common Council, there never was
any qualification required for the office, but was made compulsory
like that of constable. A person elected to serve as sheriff could
not be excused unless he paid a fine; in point of fact, the only
qualification for these offices was their election. In many places
men might be worth 100,0001., but so engaged in business that
they would rather pay 5001. than serve the office, while another
man not worth more than 100/. would feel a pleasure in serving
the public.
Sir R. FERGUSSON was opposed to the principle of qualifi-
cation, and hoped that the country would pour in numerous and
strong petitions against it, and calling upon the Lords to remove all
qualification. He thought it most unjust to establish two rates of
qualification-1,0001. for one man, and 500/. for another. In large
towns there were many men not worth 500/., who were as fully
competent, as men worth as many thousands, to fill the office of
councillors.

Mr. C. HINDLEY. observed, that a man might be rich in
pocket, and poor in powers of his mind. A Right Rev. Prelate in
the other House, lately made a quotation from a book to which
he hoped all his Right Rev. Brethren would pay attention. The
passage was this : " There was a little city and few men in it, and
there came a great king against it, and there was found in it a poor
man, who, by his wisdom, delivered the city. Yet no man re-
membered that poor man. Then, said I, " Wisdom is better than
riches." He hoped the time would come when every man would
be rated not according to his wealth, but according to his merit.
—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. GROTE had come down to the House with the full inten-
tion of dividing upon this question of qualification ; but after the
observations which he had heard, he was disposed to alter his pur-
pose. Yet he was anxious to give the reasons which had induced
him to form that purpose, viz., to show the repugnance to the prin-
ciple of qualification, and to appeal to the judgment of the electors,
by whose judgment, after all, they must be ultimately guided. He
also intended to mark his sense, that the extent of the concession made
to the Lords was greater than the occasion required.--( Hear. )
this principle had been adopted by men whom lie respected, but
he must say that the tone of this debate was calculated to have no
other effect than to give the Lords a power of legislating over this
House, and to make the country believe that this House would not
stand by any great principles which it had endeavoured to establish.
He could not see what the country had gained by the Reform Bill,
if the other House was to exercise its power over the decided
majorities of the representatives of the people in this House.—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") However the observationi which
he had heard, accompanied as they were by protests against the
principle of qualification, proved to him that if he were to take a
division on this question, it would practically go forth to.the coun-
try, that this principle was less unpopular in that House, than he
was happy to find that it actually was.—( Hear, hear.) It was
therefore with this view that lie took this method of protesting
against the principle, instead of pressit:g for a division.—(Hear. )
It seemed that almost every observation respecting the amount of,
or the way of shaping the qualification, only served to show the
principle in a more objectionable point of view. When they took a
man's assurance at 5001. or 1,0001., it would lead to this, that it would
seem consistent to adopt some means of finding out the fact, and not
simply rely upon a man's own assurance. If they were content to
take a man's assurance without entering into any investigation
they must submit to any extent of evasion. This was sufficient to
expose the nugatory and objectionable principles of the Bill. Every
amendment and step that had been taken in that House, certainly
had a tendency to alleviate the pressure, and to mitigate its bad
principles ;' and he was rejoiced to see any thing in the nature of
a Councillors or particular list.
Major BEAUCLERK, as the motion was about. to be with-
drawn, felt bound to protest against the clause as it at present
stood. It was objectionable to the great body of the people, to the
lower class of tradesmen, inasmuch as it obliged individuals to prove
to the amount of their property, which in a commercial coun-
try like this, he considered most invidious. He also protested
against it because he did not forget that the Reform Bill
gave no political power to the great body of the people, and
now when they were forming a Corporation Reform Bill, they were
giving no political power to the poor man. They say that the poor
man is not an honest man, and though he is fit to be taxed, he is
not fit to manage his taxes. On these grounds he thought that his
Majesty's Ministers had yielded too much in favour of the other
House, and though he hoped that they would give satisfaction to that
House, he could not help feeling that the day would soon came when
they would find that House would never go on in conformity with
the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) He protestel in the
strongest terms against this clause, which he was sure would
spread general dissatisfaction throughout the country.—Hear, hear.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS—As the Hon. Member opposite (Mr.
Grote) does not mean to press this subject to 'a division, he felt
bound to state what his feelings were with respect to this claase,
and to protest against it in the strongest terms.--( Hear, hem'. )
He protested against a qualification altogether.--( Hear, hear.) If
a qualification was necessary for those who were elected Council-
lors, surely it was equally necessary for those who took their seats
in the Legislature of the nation, and imposed taxes and burdens on
the honest and industrious citizens.—(Hear, hear.) The princi-
ple applied much more strongly to the one case than to the other. If
any Noble Lord would only spend three years of his life amongst
the middling classes, he would then be able to understand the feel-
ings of those for whom lie attempted to legislate. He believed
thatattheexpiration of that timehisopinion with respect to a quali-
fication would be entirely changed.—(Loud cheers.) He had
seen so much in the old constituencies, of heart-burnings aris-
ing from the system of qualification under Sturges Bourne's
Act, which had been called a qualification of bricks against
brains —( A laugh) that he could never consent to any
measure that contained a qualification of this nature. Though
he had given this measure his most cordial support in its
original state ; yet as as one of those who had done so he could
not allow this clause to be introduced without expressing his
deep disappointment, and without complaining of the pressure which
had compelled his Majesty's Ministers to depart from their original
proposition.—(Cheers. ) He could not allow this vote to be taken
without rising to declare that the introduction of a qualification
into this measure would give great dissatisfaction, and ;times per-
fectly uncalled for.--(Cheers.)

isted in that House, and that they did
Opinions without any regard for those of
all, to prove that 4. the Bill was ultima
be any fault of thOix's.—( Cheers.) 0
Ward) had given his support to the pre!
jesty's Government. With respect to t'
two points to be considered. First, wt
and secondlv, what would be the best Mt
opinion, that rent down by the House ol
worst description. Nothing would int
There was something so overbearing, s
would add so insolent, in attempting.to
these towns to a narrow oligarchy-0
out of the councillors' list alone the
selected—not an oligarchy of sense or
the breeches pocket—( Hear, and a la'
new and anomalous a distinction among
a1ep.1,..