The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, AUGUST 6, 185).

to sailors, but there was a curious circumstance, which de- 1 'oeen allowed to produce this unhappy and disreputable
served notice. Hitherto the furlough of sailors allowed them affair, the cost of which would be fourfold what it would
to return to their ships at a month's notice ; but now they have been if the money had been generously given.
were required to so at five day's notice. This looked as if Mr. HORSMAN did not think the question raised by his
the French Government wished more than usual to be pre- hon. and gallant friend was so unimportant as the Secretary
pared to replace their fleet in an effective state. But how- of State for India seemed to think. He must take this oppor-
ever that might be, the question was that if our force was tunity to urge again upon the house the state of insecurity
inadequate it must be increased. There were now 100,000 in which this country was placed from the want of an ade-
European soldiers in India, and this bore on the subject of quate home force.: It had been shown that the troops now
the finances of the Indian Government. He had seen a in India were not required there, and they were a great
etatement in the Bengal journals that "it was not bayonets burthen on the finances of India, whilst they were wanted
or artillery that was wanted, but a good system of go- to give additional strength to England. Now, the question
vernmerit. ' He wished to impress on the house that it was was, whether we ought to send out more recruits to India,
objectionable to send these troops out of this country. It or to laing home regiments from India to England. This
was said that the recent disturbance in the local force in must not be treated as a mere departmental question. The
India was an additional reason for sending out more troops points to be considered were, first, what was the probability
from England. The authorities here and in India had mis- of our military force being required for a home exigency ;
managed this matter of the local troops. Forty men of this and, secondly, was it sufficient for such an emergency ?
force were to be brought to courts-martial, and 6,000 or Now, all those who were most versed in European politics,
7,000 of this force were to be discharged. You had a large and best acquainted with the secret springs and motives
force in India, double the number that put down the mutiny, by which cabinets, and empires, and armies were set in
and when you found that the Indian government was re- motion, said that ;he time might not be far distant when
ducing their local force it showed that any additional troops we should require a large home force-when English
were unnecessary. liberty would have to be fought for on English soil; and
Colonel P. HERBERT; who had a notice of motion on the majority of such persons toldus that, according to pre-
the paper, "That in the opinion of the house the military sent appearances, they thought that at no distant day this
force at present available for service within the United was inevitable. (Murmurs.) He really knew no person
Kingdom is inadequate to existing requirements," said, who had attended much to Eoropean politics, and who be-
that as, by the forms of the house, he could not make his lieved that the peace of Europe could be maintained un-
motion, he would take advantage of that of his honourable broken for many years, or who did not think that, if it
and gallant friend to make the statement he desired to make. were to be broken, 'it was very probable that England
He would not enter into the question of what ought to be might be brought into the conflict. Our own most expos
the number of troops for the defence of this country, but he rienced diplomatists gave us the strongest warnings on the
wished to confine himself to the fact of the number of troops subject, and. assured us that if we disregarded those warn
which were actually possessed for service in this country. ings we should' rue the day. Now, supposing such a
He had before him a document, the accuracy of which home exigency to occur, were our means of encountering it
would not be disputed by the Secretary for War, and he had sufficient ? It was notorious that the strongest representa-
extracted from it the figures he wished to bring before the tions had been made to her Majesty's Ministers on this sub-
house. He would refer to the number of troops- in the ject by the highest and most competent authorities; and
United Kingdom on the Ist of June in this year. The the Government had had as great an amount of concurrent
total number on that day, including militia, was 110,000. testimony laid officially before them as ever was got toge-
He wished to enter into an examination of the actual ther. The house was told the other night of a military
value of that number of men. Excluding the embodied - committee appointed last year to report confidentially to the
militia the number was reduced to 86,000 ; of these 10,000 Government. It was not for the house to see that confiden-
were officers, sergeants, and drummers, and that reduced tial report, but the Government ought not to lull the coun-
the rank and file to 76,000. When a force was of in- try into e. false security, by holding language at variance
ferior quality you required a larger number of men. with the information they possessed. When he (Mr. Hors-
Of the 76,000 men nearly one half were under one year's man) made a motion on this subject the other night, he was
service, and the number under 20 years of age was 28,000. answered by the Secretary for War in a very frank and
Of the whole number 11,000 were recruits-and you must manly speech, but he regretted afterwards to hear the noble
tike the sick at 5,000, absentees at 4,500, making a total of lord at the head of the Government, who sneered at the
20,500, leaving fit for duty 55,000, so that you had come rifle fever which his colleague had taken credit for the Go-
down to one half of the original number. Of these the vernment for having encouraged; and the noble lord went
cavalry were 7,600, the artillery 9,000, the engineers and so far as to say that even if that unfortunate event of a war
Military Train, 3,000, making 19,600, so that the infantry should occur, if we had a disaster at sea and the landing of
were reduced to 34,500. Of this number 15,000 belonged to a hostile force in England, the population of the country
depots principally of the regiments in India. The depots would of itself be sufficient to annihilate the invaders. He
were composed of 24,000 men altogether, and of these 10,000 was sorry to hear that statement from the noble lord, be-
were under 20 years of age, and 15,000 were under one
cause it was one which no military man coult think founded
gdseeporvt Thisoopicter.s,
and except showed what
hwe
purposeouldbe theof
devfalenedg occur, value of in reason. He felt that if only any partial disaster should
and even the smallest injury were to be inflicted, a
fortified places it would be extremely small. Of the seven
year's
heavy responsibility would rest upon those charged with
battalions of the Guards and the 24 regiments of the line, the protection of the country. The day would come when
excluding the sick and absentees, the grand total of rank every word that had been spoken, every act that had been
and file was 21,000, to which were to be added officers, ser- done, every confidential report submitted to the Govern-
geants, and drummers, 3,000. The embodied militia ment, would all rise in judgment against them. The great
amounted to 23,000, and if the deductions in the regular Napoleon once said that an invaded country never wanted
forces were great, it must also be large from this 23,000 men, but that it did want soldiers. This was the reply to
men. Many of the militia regiments were extremely fine those who fancied an unarmed population could be relied
battalions, but many of them were not in the highest state upon in a suddenemergency. The hon. and gallant member
of efficiency. If you allowed the defence of Portsmouth, for Ludlow had shown from official returns that the military
Pembroke, and Plymouth to be committed to the militia force in this country was not only inadequate, but almost no
and the depot battalions, and took the whole of the regi- force at all. He (Mr. Horsman) could not contemplate
ments of the line in Great Britain available for service in that fact without great disquietude. No one knew how soon
the field, the force of infantry would be 21,000 men, and'if the emergency might arrive. If any one in July, 1858, had
you added to these 12,000 or 14,000 militia, you would only told the Emperor of Austria that before July, 1859, a war
get 35,000 men. He should no doubt be told that all with France would have been begun and ended, he would
armies were subject to the deductions which he had pointed have been taken for a lunatic. Events marched rapidly in
out, but in this case they were out of all proportion to the these days; they came quickly, and as quickly passed
nominal strength of our army. Another point which would away. His hon. and 'gallant friend was therefore quite
probably be urged against them was, that if these state- right in taking the opportunity of the sending out of these
ments were true, it was indiscreet to make them. But he 7,000 meat° India to call attention to this matter. Instead
differed on that point. These things were well known to of sending more out, we wanted all that we had here now,
everybody but' ourselves. (Hear.) Any one who was in and 20,000 or 30,000 more, if they could be got from India ;
the habit of looking into the state of our army might easily and even then we should be under the strength which every
come to the same results as he had. Military officers of man to whom one would refer for information or advice
foreign nations were as able to make these calculations as must think requisite. It was the duty of the Government to
'he was. Every week the stations of our army were pub- bring home every single soldier not absolutely required,
lished in some 'of the journals, and for ls. 6d. any one Mr. S. HERBERT said-Beforeladdress myself to
could get the Army Estimates, and by these means any
soldier could make the calculation for himself. The remedy what fell from the hon. and gallant officer opposite, let me
was in the hands of the Government, and if they could get make some few remarks on the last sentences of the speech
over the financial difficulty-that of getting the money-the of the right hon. gentlemen who has just sat down. He
expense of putting the matter on a proper footing would be gives in his adhesion, after discussion of the motion, to the
small. Our regimental establishment was large, and 30,000
wish to stop these draughts andreliefs b •sent out to
mg
men could be added to our infantry without the addition of
a single officer. (Hear.) More militia regiments ought to India, because of the danger from attack by foreign Powers
be embodied. In any reply to his figures he should like at home. What would be the result of stopping these
the house to tear in mind that the repetition of the gross draughts? Do not let the house think that we are sending
totals could not be considered as a refiltation of his argu- out trained men with a military organisation. These are
ment. His figures were correct, and if they showed that draughts
of
young
recruits belonging to regiments in India.
our infantry was only 21,000, and that you had only
14,000 out of the 23,000 militia to add to them for the pur- 'We want to get regiments back. We have seven coming ;
pose of meeting an enemy in the field, he hoped the house they are afloat, and one has arrived. But we want many
would feel that the military force at present available for more battalions from India. 'We are now going upon a
service within the United Kingdom was inadequate to exist- system which is wrong, but to which our necessities com-
ing circumstances,
Sir A. AGNEW said that with reference to the motion of pel us. In time of profound peace we are bringing our re-
the hon. and gallant member for Westminster, he would serves into line and using our embodied militia where we
say that we had now in India a force most adapted for the ought to hive regular troops. We want to get rid of this
defence of. this country, and:instead of not sending out these , state of things. We necessarily press up on the Indian
6,000 men to India it would be better to let them go, and
Government to send back regiments as soon as circum-
bring home some of the fine seasoned men, with all the ex-
perience of Crimea -
It was Et shame that such troops should be allowed to die : lowing the mutiny of the Sepoys, .there is the mutiny
away from the effects of climate in India. It was best to of the European local troops, and no doubt great
send ' out the newly raised men, and bring the seasoned. alarm in India and great unwillingness to send back bat-
troops home, who would be more available for our defence ..
tenons. If you want to confirm the Indian Government
than militia or newly raised corps. '
Col. NORTH hoped the Government would send out this in retaining these battalions you cannot take' a surer
force. Many regiments in India would be rendered ineffi- method than by refusing to send the draughts and reliefs
eient if the usual reliefs did not go out, and it would be like which belong to regiments these, because they naturally
a sentence of perpetual banishment if regiments were not say, "We want so many thousand men. If you keep the
brought home. He was afraid that the services of more than rough draughts and reduce the regiments to skeletons we
8,700 would be required in India, according to the reports shall be obliged to keep more battalions to have the same
which had, just reached this country. Something had been number of men." The result would be, you would have
said about increasing the local European force in India; but, an army in India with a disproportionate number of officers
after one regiment of this force had set the example of in- and an insufficient number of men, and an army ih Eng-
trenching itself in barracks and electing its own officers, he land with a vast number of men, without a sufficient num-
thought the sooner our own soldiers went out there the ber of officers. You would produce inefficiency both here
better. A man who got a European regiment to mutiny and there, make a great disturbance, and defeat the very
must be very clever indeed; but, from inquiries he had object which you have in view-namely, to get battalions
made, he believed that the 'ranks of Indian regiments were home to England. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the speech
filled with broken-down lawyers and men of that descrip- of the gallant officer opposite, he says, and justly says that
tion. (Laughter.) He meant no disrespect to the learned in estimating the value of our forces we must take into con-
profession, but troublesome soldiers were always called the sideration that a great many battalions are very young-
lawyers of the regiment. The men had a grievance, but if that there are a vast number of men under 20, and a vast
they had been told that the case had been settled against number of men under 25. In making that statement he
them, not by the Attorney or Solicitor •General, but by the confirms that which I have stated on ae former occasion,
Adjutant-General, they would have manifested a different because I stated . the other night that the improved
feeling. Ina Queen's
regiment things would be explained health of the army could not be entirely depended upon, as
to the men on their private parades; or an old soldier the ariry was disproportionately young. But that is a
would go to his captain, and on returning would tell the fault which will mend every day. We have newly
men, " I don't know what he said, but it's all right." raised young raw levies; but even young and raw
(A laugh.) If
this
had been done here there' would have levies as they are, when they arrived at 'Malta, and
been no rumpus whatever. With regard to the avail- were seen accidentally by a distinguished and competent
able force in this country he thought that his gallant judge, he said he could scarcely believe that they were such
friend took too gloomy a view. An infantry soldier of a young. battalions, so efficient didthey seem to him. (Hear.)
year's standing, so far as fighting was concerned, was an Then comes the question how are you to count armies ? At
efficient soldier ; Waterloo was won by men who had not one time they were counted by rank and file. Sergeants were
been more than two or three years in the service. As to the not counted, because they did not carry any arms. But now
calculations which had been made, he did not see why the they are armed. They have a better musket than the men
sergeants, who were armed like the rest of the men, should carry, and I confess I do not understand why you throw
be deducted from the available force ; and the Military Train them out of the account. You may or may not count ser-
Corps, though non-combatant, formed an integral part of geants. But then you must recollect that, comparing man
our force, and ought to be reckoned with it. Then, again, for man and army for army, our own counts by rank and file,
five per cent. Was the usual allowance made for the sick; while France, Austria, and I believe Russia, all count by
and altogether he thought the deductions made were far too line. 1 confess I think the whole calculation of the gallant
many. With regard to the militia, he was at Aldershot last officer rests on very inaccurate conditions. I have statedthat
Saturday, and, as far as the movements of the men went, I think that hitherto we have been forced into a wrong sys-
he defied any one to distinguish militia from line regiments. tern. When we get regiments home from India we shall get
(Hear, hear.) It was impossible to see finer troops, and he into a right system. But to say that what you mean by a
hoped. Government would continue to maintain the regi- peace establishment is an army ready at any moment to resist
merits which were now out. It was not drill or numbers war of .which no notice is given, and which may take place
which made a regiment, but the soldierlike feeling and die- any day of the week, is an impossible, state of things. Of
eipline which animated the men. Five hundred men well course, if you take a peace establishment and compare it with
disciplined were more valuable than 1,000 others. He a large war establishment, there must be a great dispropor-
was glad, therefore, to hear the notice of the Secretary for tion. The gallant officer says that the country, under present
War that evening for the formation of a reserve corps from circumstances, ought to be placed in a state of defence.
men who had been 10 years in the service. They would What are those circumstances ? Ido not think the circum-
prove a great additional security to the country if they could stances now, compared with those of the past, are such as to
be got to join this corps He agreed that no sufficient in- justify us in making a violent effort greatly to increase our
ducement was proposed ; but as a soldier who entered the force. A short time ago there was war in Europe ; that was
army at 18 would leave it in the prime of life, 20,000 such said to be a reason for increasing the army ; but now peace
men would be of the highest value in protecting our shores. 1 has been made, and we are told we ought to increase it be-
(Hear.) cause there is peace l (Hear, hear.) Ido not say our means
Sir E. COLEBROOKE said he shared in the opinion of of defence are not small ; I think we should make an effort to
the hon. and gallant member for Westminster that, looking improve them. But again, we are told the time is come when
to the state of India, and the large European force there, he we ought to reduce our army; these arguments, then, are
could not see why such a large number of additional men matters of opinion, according to the political position hon.
should be sent out. But he rose to point out to the house gentlemen take. Ido not say, then, our defences are whatthey
that the force which the hon. and gallant member wished to ought to be, and we shall go on improving them. But do not
retain in this country did not belong to the British Govern- mislead the public by holding out the notion that this coun-
ment, but to the Government of India. It was natural that try will ever support a vast ' war army in time of peace.
? Supposing
the hon. and gallantgentlemanshould wish to have as many (Hear, hear.) After all, what is our reserve
ourselves, we haveg
, troops as mi"ht be necessary for the defence of the country, we were under the necessity ef
armilfig6Oo men. This is
but he hoped they would go further withhim, and insist that a reserve, including the militia, o
'actually mbodied.
the whole of that force should be charged on the revenue riot a force on paper, but consists of men . .
are told by good military
of this country instead of on that of India. The whole It is a force strong enough,
weour chief arsenals. It may be a
question of the relative expense of troops borne by this authorities, to defend all o
butuit is certainly an improving one.
country and India deserved considerate revision by the Go- small and young force,
vemment. He (Sir E. Corebrooke) had given notice of his (Hear, hear.)lnclud g regiments now on their way
seven
Including
39 battalions. I wish the force
intention to bring in a bring to extend the power of the In- from India, NVO shall have
dian Government to increase the local force. were larger ; but the way to make I't larger is certainly not
Sir C. WOOD thought it unnecessary for the house to to send draughts to lar India: A force of 61,000 men may not
it .
Is not t o be frittered
away
wander into a debate upon Indian finance upon the organi- be considered a g
gentleman opposite has dealt with
sation of the Indian army, or upon the national defences. in the manner the hon.fosStroud (Mr. Horsman) has re-
He agreed with the hon. and gallant member opposite, the it.. The hon. member •
member for Oxfordshire, that if this were a question of re- ferred to the terms of the c
• confidential report on our means
not aware of its character, but
gular organised regiments of this country to act as a militia of defence ; he says he a
ssevere truths, as I have not
force in India, it would be objectionable, but that was not thinks it must Contain some
what was proposed. It was indispensably necessary to send ventured to quote its
l guae•e. I should have thought
quoting a confidential report
out these drafts in order to keep up the efficiency of the re- that a sufficient reason for not
giments now in India, and that was really all it was now is, simply, because it is confidential ; and what is intended
peoposed to do. Although it might appear that this was ato be confidential is not generally made known. (Hear.)
large number of men to send out at one time, it should be The hon. gentleman says, we hear of certain represents.
observed 'fleet they would arrive in India at a season of the tions having been
e has been some augmentation of our
made to the Government, and since those
year When 'they were least likely to be affected by the representations there e
must admit that we seem to be perpetu-
change of climate, instead of being sent out in driblets all military force. and the opposite
through the year. They would there go to make up those ally oscillating between parsimony
deal with our military establishment. At
regimentd of the line or of the local force which were now excess when we
way
to an excess of extravagance; when
must India,' mid' so the efficiency of those regiments, which one time we give
fit comes on there is an inevitable reaction,ll
must be leeptin India at all events, must be kept up. With the oppositetirirr
wave leaves us at a lower point than
regard to the' reduction of the force in India, it was intended and the
~,..
e began the spasmodic exertion. (Hear.)we
to send home' ten regiments in the course of this year, but stood at before
uncertainty, this continual up and down, is e
circumstances 'had occurred which interfered with that This
injurious to the efficiency of the army. learexh eed-
measure, 'tied the excitement which had arisen amongst
inglyihoura wish the house to look at this subject , ear.)
the Europe to ' troops, though ' it• had been a good deal I
and fix as nearly as possible what calmly
and
reasonably,
should be the
exagereted," made it advisable, in the opinion of
ber of our military establishment. If, having the Government of India to retain two or three of the regi-
num
ye intentions against any country, no
meats which had been ordered home. One regiment of offensive
force
cavalry, however, and seven regiments of infantry, with a
Dentedthan these violent and security, be much
• and r spasmodic attempts to co
battalion of the military train, had already left India,
vert a small 'army into a large . 'l-
one, and, after a reaction of
were' on their return home. coming feeling, disbanding it and reducing it to 40,000 men;
Sir DE L. EVANS asked how mauy men were
though it is, a system' very difficult to resist in a
home ? ' country
' ' • 'number of men, governed by a popular assembly. I have no objection to
Sir C. WOOD could not exactly say the , on this subject; the
into other regi- discussion more the public know about
because they were allowed to volunteer
hoer r- it Colonel ess they will be Baia flee
b f d
ut of epa yun ounde alarms.
meats remaining in India up to thene
' e m were DUNNE said were no less tha four bills
' ' eiments comma,
tore of their regiments. Ihe re,n
Foot the 29th on the •th t •
impel a night re:atine to military matters.
the 9th' Lancers, the 10th Foot, the 28th ,
the disapproved of 1h • d ''
• ' • He
Foot the sah Foot, and e peno of service 'icing limitedlo ten
Foot, the 37th Foot, the 84th ~years, and also' of the undue increase of the staff. Nothin
6th battalion of the Military Train.
now in India effectual would be done in the way of defence until g
Col. SYKES remarked that every regiment a proper
filling up the va- system of organisation for the army had been
determined
consisted of about 1,100 men, and by not
which he thought en. Th,e mill'ought to be armed . h
arming, ila
=cies they might be reduced to 9QQ,
sufficient. of
quits tho people generally was futile, for a sufficiency
would, under ordinary circumstances, be n. India. There of arms could not be found. Now that -
The, were more required in F.ngland than i
India'
the cost of had been brought to suchperfection, arms of precision
wore now, ,
' 110 000 European troops, in
.prudent to reduce that those troops who had the less perfect arms would be
them was enormens,and it would be
to send out cut off; and a further result would be e
that hostile forces
fast ag Teeisible (Hear.) The proposal
them as, . •European would
rapt' recruits, and send home the, acclimatised
d 'nee new our- come to close encounter sooner. He believed that
troops, was one of the strangest , eyee tria e, since
three the last
now much more efficient
last great European war. than it was after
comers in India died off by dozens in the first two orfro
the expense of their transport to and was. Sir F. SMITH recalled the attention of the house to the
years ;
also immense. 'With regard to the , late, outbreak, it question before it-whether 6,000 or 7,000 troops should be
had • been caused by an extraordinary blunder er sent out their depots in India. He considered that this
by extraordinary , want of tact. It was a noble was necessary. In an enumeration of troops the sergeants
occasion to have said to those men, "You are not anti- ought not to be reckoned ;it was their Eery to attend on the
tied to what you Claim, but you are gallant fellows-you troops, and not to be under arias. le --erring to .the coin-
have won I?elhi and Lueknow for us, and so here it is fpr mission appointed on the national defences, he expressed a
you." (Cheers.) 'that 'Wotild have been a sure means bf hope that the object of their inquiry should be defined, or
attaching them to our service, but instead of that the nasty, they might recommend the discontinuance of works now iii
niggling, petty consideration of a few thousand pounds had progress. He approved of the proposal to raise a reserved

force, consisting of men who had served ten years. Such

a forCe would be most valuable.

THE ARMY IN INDIA.
Sir C. WOOD brought in a bill to repeal the 31st section
of the act 16th and 17th Victoria, chap. 95, and to alter the
limit of the number of European troops to be maintained
for local service in India.
The house adjourned shortly after two o'clock.

After a few words from Colonel GILPIN,
Lord PALMERSTON said that the functions and limita-
tions of the commission on national defences had been very
distinctly explained. Their duties would be to examine
accurately all plans of works yet to be made, to compare
them with the works already made, and to see what was the
best mode of adapting that which was to be added to that
which existed, in order to render as perfect as possible, with
reference to the present system of attack, those works which
were essential for the defence of our dockyards and arsenals.
They would not have so much to overhaul what was already
done as to see how it could be made most complete. He
would hardly have risen, however, to set this point right,
but he wished to correct a misconception of his right hon.
friend (Mr. Horsman) as to what had fallen from him a
few evenings ago as to the means of defence in case of war.
His right hon. friend seemed to imagine that the popula-
tion of the country itself would be abl to defend her. (Mr.
Horsman—No.) He never said anything of the kind. He
was observing on the rifle corps, and he said that if occa-
sion required they would show the same spirit as was
evinced by a much smaller population in the war which
commenced in 1803, when two or three hundred thousand
volunteers were raised and armed, ready to defend their
country, and that such a force, in addition to the regulars
and militia which they could bring into the field, would be
able to teach an invader a lesson. He had not at all ad-
verted to that organisation as a single means of defence. It
was remarkable how much the discussions on this matter
were influenced by momentary considerations, rather than
by a permanent settled system. When the Indian mutiny
broke out he was urged to send all the line-of-battle ships
to India with troops, to take out their guns and use them
as transports, but now in discussing the means of defence
of the country, the greatest stress is laid on having a Chan-
nel fleet as an adequate means of defence. There was not
much consistence in one moment urging a minister to send
all the line-of-battle ships to the other side of the globe,
and in a short time after, when the defence of the country
was in question, requiring to have them in the Channel
ready equipped. That showed how desirable it was, when
they turned their mind to the question of national defences,
they should be quite divested of all influence of temporary
and accidental circumstances, and look at the question
calmly with a view to a permanent arrangement. He must
confess that although they were capable of improvement
(which he trusted they would soon receive), yet when he
contemplated that the present arrangements would furnish
us with an effective force for defence, it did net seem to him
so contemptible as some hon. gentlemen and the public at
large seemed to think. He held that in the event of a war
they would be able to bring into the field a force
little short of 200,000 fighting men : the regular
force would amount to about 60,000. The present
establishment of the militia was 120,000, and if they were
well recruited in the event of any real emergency they
might count on a force of 100,000. Then there were 14,000
yeomanry, some 12,000 or 14,000 pensioners, and the force
of ten years' service men, which would be formed under a
bill to be brought forward that evening. Then the dock-
yard battalions might be enrolled for the defence of the dock-
yards. And taking all these together, an enemy would
have to count on at least a force of 200,000 men before him.
He did not wish to prolong the discussion, but he could
assure the hon. and gallant officer that the men going out
to India were recruits ; this would enable the Government
to bring home several regiments, and carry out arrange-
ments most essential to the defence of the country.
Colonel DICKSON admitted that a number of regiments
might be brought home, but he wished to draw the atten-
tion of the house to the fact that they would return mere
skeletons, of not more than 250 or 300 men each. (Mr. S.
Herbert—The depots are so much above the establishment
that when the head-quarters come back the regiments will
be nearly complete.) He agreed with the noble lord that
some persons took too gloomy a view of the state of the
army ; but he thought the noble lord was too sanguine.
He also agreed that they were too apt to act on momentary
impressions. He thought the proposed reserve force was
exceedingly ill-advised. It was intended to catch the ten
years' service men, but those were the very men they
wanted to catch for the militia. He had been very much
disappointed in the report of the militia commission ; they,
seemed to have considered only the position of the adju-
tants, which was very good already. He was sorry to hear
the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for War say that
he intended to consider the report, with a view to re-organise
the force ; the report furnished no materials for its re-or-
ganisation.
Sir De Lacy Evans's resolution was then negatived
without a division, and the report of the Committee of
Ways and Means was received.
EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
RESERVE VOLUNTEER FORCE OF SEAMEN
BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
Clause 4 was agreed to.
On clause 5,
Mr. HENLEY said that by this clause 'volunteers who
had entered for five years were liable, " in case her Majesty
should see fit, to be called on to serve for three or four
years additional." Such a clause as that put the force en-
tirely at the discretion of the Admiralty, and he would
suggest that some proviso should be inserted as to the case
of the naval volunteers and militia, making them liable only
in case of "imminent internal danger or war."
Sir C. NAPIER agreed with the suggestion of the right
hon, gentleman, and
Lord C. PAGET proposed to insert the words "of na-
tional emergency" after the word "proclamation."
After some further conversation,
Mr. AYRTON said that,"as in clause 13 the Government
were given the fullest powers to make regulations it would
be far better to omit the smaller details of the bill. If the
Admiralty could not be trusted to carry out the bill they
were not fit for their places.
Lord C. PAGET thought that at all events it would be
desirable to adopt the clause under consideration, its object
being to protect the seamen, and thereby to attract them
into the service.
Mr. HENLEY thought the bill ought to be made more
clear. If he were asked what it meant he could only say
that it was a bill to induce men to enter the Queen's ser-
vice, leaving them to get out of it again as they could.
Unless the provisions of the measure were made more in-
telligible the seamen would not be likely to enter, and this
praiseworthy attempt would prove a complete failure. (Hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY had read the bill over two or three times,
and he really could not understand it. It was altogether a
very ill-constructed measure, and was much too long. It
will certainly be much better to leave the details to the
executive.
The clause as amended was agreed to.
Clauses up to 9 were agreed to.
it
TheyLC On
ona rs clausedw oC u calculated,dP AIOG,
not PETom( saideinnd get
nehfoaof
ttor pensionsrtehxl eoc
years.e md o amount
xnt
6oto ofvolunteers,,o 0 these
o per a
nn u
pensions,m
Mr. HENLEY thought this question ought to be very
carefully considered. He could not but think that the
clause was too wide in its frame as it stood. It would be
very difficult to determine how pensions should be awarded,
as between men who had and those who had not seen active
service. He thought that if the pensions wore to be granted
subject to the consent of the Treasury, it would meet some
of the difficulties of the case.
Lord C. PAGET adopted the suggestion of the right hon.
gentleman, and the words, " With the consent of the Lords
Commissioners of the Treasury," were added to the clause,
which was agreed to.
Clauses up to 15 were agreed to.
On clause 15,
Mr. LINDSAY said that, with the system of flogging
existing, the Admiralty could not expect volunteers.
Sir C. NAPIER did not see how the navy could be main-
tained in discipline without flogging. The subject and the
mode of determining by whose authority it was to be ad-
ministered ought to be considered by the Admiralty.
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses up to 20.
On clause 20,
Mr. LINDSAY remarked that this clause imposed a
penalty upon the master of a vessel who could not give an
account of any lad who was missing. Of course if a boy
deserted it would be impossible for the master to tell where
he was.
Lord C. PAGET said he intended to alter the frame of
this clause at a future stage. Probably it would be omitted
altogether.
Tho clause and the remaining clauses were agreed to,
and the house resumed.
POOR LAW BOARDS (PAYMENT OF DEBTS)
BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
The several clauses were agreed to without amendment,
and the house resumed.
SUPERANNUATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
the order for the second reading of this bill be discharged.
He did not think it convenient to introduce a continuance
act, but it was better to reserve the whole matter till next
session.
The order of the day was then discharged.
CHARITABLE AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES,
&c., BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES ACT
(1858), &c., AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time, but
Mr. WALPOLE, whose bill it was, said he did not in-
tend to proceed with it this session.
Amid some laughter the bill was ordered to be committed
that day fortnight.
MILITIA LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill, the several
clauses were agreed to, and the bill was ordered to be re-
ported. The house resumed.
into
00mBmIiLtt L
ee.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA ACT AMENDMENT
The house went
on this bill, which passed
through committee, with several verbal amendments.
RESERVE FORCE BILL.
Bill read a second time.
CORRUPT PRACTICES PREVENTION ACT
(1854) CONTINUANCE BILL.
On the motion that the bill be read a second time,
Mr. W. MARTIN would not oppose this stage, but
hoped that the whole question would be carefully reviewed
early next session, as he feared that the act had not worked
well.
Bill read a second time.
Sir C. LEWIS intimated that if it were thought right to
have an inquiry on the subject by a select committee next
session, he should offer no objection.
The Inclosure Acts Amendment Bill, the Stock-in-Trade
Exception Bill, the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Continuance
Bill, and :the Inclosure Bill, were severally read a second
time.

ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE.

HOME CIRCUIT.—CROYDON, AUGUST 5.
(Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.)
Richard Cole, a private soldier, was indicted for
stealing a watch from the person of the Rev. Wm.

Stuart.
Mr. Knapp prosecuted ; the prisoner was de-
fended by Mr. Worsley.
The Rev. Mr. Stuart, the prosecutor, deposed
that he was in King-street, Guildford, on the night
of the 2d July, when the prisoner came up to him
and said he wanted a bed, and witness told him that
if he really wanted a bed he would not object to
pay for one for him. The prisoner directed him to a
place where a bed couldbe procured, and he ac-
companied him there, and saw a man, whom he
asked if he could tell him where the soldier could
have a bed, and he was willing to pay for it.
While he was talking to this man, he felt the pri-
soner make a pull at his watch, and he said to him,
" What are you doing ?" and the prisoner ran
away, and he saw his guard dangling, and hie
watch was gone. He gave an alarm, but the pri-
soner succeeded in getting away.
The prosecutor, upon being cross-examined, said
that he was the curate of the parish of Stoke, near
Guildford. He had been to the railway station to
inquire about a parcel, and it was half-past 11
o'clock wken the offence occurred. He went to
the hotel near the railway, and had a glass of
ale. He afterwards went to the White Lion Hotel,
and had another glass of ale, or he might have had
two. The street where the robbery occurred was called
Swan-lane, and he had since heard that it was one
of the worst neighbourhoods in Guildford, and that
none but prostitutes and bad characters lived there.
Swan-lane was net the direct way to his own resi-
dence, and if he had not gone there he would not
have met the soldier. The prisoner first accosted
him as well as he can remember, and he did not
offer to take him to a place in Swan-lane where he
could get a bed. The prisoner told him that he
could get a bed there. He did rot go into any
house with the prisoner. He did not slap the faca
of the man he saw in the lane, but he certainly:
struck at him, and his hand went round and
touched him on the face. (A laugh.) He did not
prefer going home by the way of Swan-lane be-
cause he knew it was inhabited by prostitutes.
(A laugh.) The only reason he went there was '
because the prisoner told him that it was a place
where he would be likely to get a bed.
John Lovett deposed that he was standing near
the end of Swan-lane on the night in question, and
saw the prosecutOr and the soldier talking together.
They came up to him, and the prosecutor gave him
a slap on the face, ,and said, " Can you find us a
bed ?' Witness told him that the houses were all
shut up, and it was too late, and he should have
looked out for a bed before, and the prosecutor .
then said, " I am a clergyman ; you know that." ~!3
Witness told him he was not aware of it ; amt. 3
added that he was a " pretty clergyman" to hit' ,)
him, and he had better not do it again. (A laugh.)"
The prisoner then asked him to tell him where he,
could get a bed, and the prosecutor said that he "
would pay for it, and at the same moment witness
saw the prisoner make a snatch at the prosecutor's
chain, and run off, and the chain dangled loose, r
Cross-examined—When witness first saw the
prosecutor and the prisoner they were standing -
close to the Swan public-house. It was shut, and
one or the other was rapping at the door. The
prosecutor came up to witness, and at once gave
him a slap on the mouth. (A laugh.) He certainly..,'
was not very sober. He did not walk particularly
straight. (A laugh.) Swan-lane was inhabited by 3
very loose characters indeed. (Renewed laughter.)
It was nearly 12 o'clock at night when the offence
occurred.
Mr. Worsley, in his address to the jury on be-
half of the prisoner, made some very observations.
on the conduct of the prosecutor, and he said there
could be no doubt that at the time the transaction
took place he was in a state of intoxication, and
that he had been wandering about the town in th -
condition, and might have lost •his watch before he :A
met with the prisoner.
Mr. Justice Blackburn, in summing up, said that
many of the facts that had appeared in the evidence
were very painful to hear, but the question for the
jury was, whether or not it was made out to the '1
satisfaction that the prisoner had stolen the watell
from the prosecutor. ,t
The jury, after deliberating for some time, Sao: is
they could not agree, and they accordingly retirekg
They were absent about an hour, and upon the`
return into court, they found the prisoner guilty.la''
Sentence was deferred. 001
1 IHenrica Hamilton, 30, was charged with utteno
ing a forged £lO Bank of England note with intett
to defraud.
The Hon. G. Denman conducted the prosecutioar
It appeared that the prisoner went to the Rade
way Hotel at Woking, and had some refreshmelatQ
which he paid for with a forged £lO note. On the
same day he proceeded to the Swan Hotel, at
Chertsey, where he tendered a second forged note,
and he succeeded in passing a third forged note for
£lO at the shop of a haberdasher in the town, a
fourth being found in his possession when he was
taken into custody.
The jury found' the prisoner guilty, and he was
sentenced to one year's penal servitude.

In answer to Mr. FREELAND,
Sir C. LEWIS said it was intended to bring in an Ec-
clesiastical Commission Bill next session.
SESSIONAL DIVISIONS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
SALE OF GAS BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
LAW OF PROPERTY AND TRUSTEES RELIEF
AMENDMENT ACT.
Tho Lords' amendments to this bill were considered, and
the bill ordered to be'read a third time.
MEDICAL ACTS AMENDMENTS BILL.
The amendments to this bill were considered and ordered
to be read a third time.
Sir E. GROGAN complained that the register, under the
Medical Act, was very imperfectly kept ; it was only made
up to the Ist July in each year. He referred to a case
which, owing to this circumstance, caused great injustice to
a medical min who had been promoted under the act.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that the object of it was for re-verifying at certain periods
the standard weights and measures kept in the counties and
boroughs by comparing them with the original standards
kept in the Exchequer. It was suggested, however, that
the period should be extended in the case of boronghs from
three to• five years, and in the case of counties from six to
ten years.
Mr. J. LOCKE agreed to this amendment, and the bill,
with some other amendments, passed through committee.
FIREWORKS,ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill passed through committee with some amend-
ments.