The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-16 00:00:00

THE S

as the reading-room was adapted to that purpose he had
given directions that they should be placed there to-mor-
row, where they could be inspected by hon. members.
THE TREATY OF PEACE.
In reply to Mr. HORSMAN,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that no official communica-
tion had been made to the Government on the subject, but
he was informed by the French. Ambassador that the
terms of the treaty were the same as those which
•
had already been published. He had directed the
attention of Lord Cowley to the subject, and desired
him to ask for some information, but his reply was
that no further statement in addition to what
had already been published would be made by the French
Government until the return of the Emperor to France,
which was expected on Monday next. •
LONDON CORPORATION BILL.
On the motion that the house at its rising do adjourn
until Monday,
Sir J. SHELLEY said that this bill, which stood
for second reading this evening, contained no less
than 73 clauses, and he would repeat what he
had previously stated, namely, that the measure would re-
ceive considerable opposition. He appealed to Government
to say whether it was right to bring on this question in the
middle of July, when it could not be fully discussed. It w
hams
impossible that the bill could be proceeded with this
session, and it was much more desirable that such a
bill should be brought in at an early period of the
session. If, however, the bill was not removed
from the books that at east it would be stated on what day
it was proposed to proceed with the further stages. The
bill had been very much altered since it came from com-
mittee, and it was feared that another bill with reference to
the financial part would have to be introduced; and, there-
I ore, he thought it would be better to postpone the present
bill, and bring in both bills next session.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that up to the present time there
had been very little legislation, and he did not think the
house would be in possession of much more information
than they had already obtained, and the most objectionable
portion of the bill—viz., that of finance—had been sepa-
rated from the measure. He was anxious that the house
should express an opinion, and on Monday next he would
name the day when he would bring the bill forward.
MILITARY MEDICAL OFFICERS.
In answer to Captain VERNON,
Mr. S. HERBERT said, with regard to the first ques-
tion, that great improvement had taken place in the situa-
tion of the officers alluded to, but it was not deemed desir-
able to extend the warrant in question.
LETTER INSURANCE.
In reply to Mr. EVANS,
Mr. LAING said that if the hon. member would satisfy
Mr. Rowland Hill as to the efficiency of the system to which
he referred, the Government would be ready to consider the
question. In the absence of information, it could not be
expected they would deal with the subject.
EPISCOPAL CHURCHES IN SCOTLAND.
In answer to Mr. HUNT,
Lor PALMERSTON said that the general opinion was
in favour of deferring any measure on this subject till next
session, and the Government would not bring in any bill
this session with reference to the matter.
TENANT COMPENSATION IN IRELAND.
The O'DONOGHUE called the attention of the Go-
vernment to the relations subsisting between lordlords and
tenants in Ireland.
Mr. CARDWELL assured the hon. member that the
subject was occupying the most careful consideration of her
Majesty's Government.
The motion for the adjournment till Monday was then
agreed to.

head of the Government. (Laughter.) The whole dream
of the noble lord's life had been the expulsion of the Aus-
trians from ,Italy, and now he saw the Austrians more
firmly established in the equilateral—(a laugh)—the quad-
rilateral—than ever, with a recognised right as a member
of the Confederation to interfere in the affairs of every state
in Italy. (Cheers.) He (Loid Elcho) did not envy the
feeling'of his noble friend when he found that this peace
had been concluded with the Emperor of the French
without waiting for his advice. His noble friend had more-
over the further mortification of feeling that eleven years
ago a nod of his head or a stroke of his pen would have
given a great deal more liberty to Italy than she now en-
joyed, after years of agitation and suffering, and after the
immolation of whole hecatombs of slaughtered soldiers.
(Loud cheers.) He could not but think that his two noble
friends were deserving of the deepest commiseration • for,
to use a most expressive though somewhat slang phrase,
they had been most horribly "sold". (Cheers and laughter.)
But peace had been made ; and a war which had been
wantonly commenced had been capriciously concluded.
(Hear, hear.) There were many circumstances which
might's; ell make them rejoice at that peace. Although they
might like to know what had been dune to ensure the better
government of the Roman States and the Two Sicilies ;
although they might like to 'know what would happen in
the event of the Bolognese, the Tuscans, and the people of
Parma and Modena declining to receive back their sove-
reigns; although they might like to know whether in such
a case the Austrian and French armies would be employed
in forcing them back on a reluctant people ; although they
might like to know what had become of the Sardinian con-
stitution, and whether the free press would be restored
through Sardinia and be extended to Lombardy; although
they might like to obtain information on this and many
other points, let them rejoice that peace had been made,
and that there was now a prospect of opening their news-
papers without having to read of that sickening slaughter of
human beings with which the public journals had of late
been filled. Let them rejoice in that ; and let them earnestly
pray that this peace would contribute to the permanent
tranquillity, happiness, and security of Europe, although
he was inclined to doubt it much. (Loud cheers.)
THE MILITARY OATH.
Lord W. GRAHAM briefly called attention to the oath
required from recruits on attestation. A return latelymOved
for by the gallant member for Westminster showed that in
one year there had been no fewer than 17,000 desertions ; a
fact which showed that the oath was of no practical utility.
LORD ELCHO'S RESOLUTION—THE AFFAIRS
• OF ITALY.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD renewed the subject of this reso-
lution, and said he regretted that it had been withdrawn
from the consideration of the house. It could not have inter-
fered with any negotiations on the part of the Government,
for there were none going on. The armistice had taken
place, and the peace been agreed to, without her Majesty's
Government being once consulted. (Hear, tear.) Never-
theless the discussion of the resolution might have been in-
convenient to the existing Government. The noble lord at
the head of the Government had severely arraigned the
foreign policy of the late Government; but his charges had
met with a prompt contradiction. (Hear.) It turned out
that the very course which the noble lord said the late
Government ought to have taken was that which they
had actually pursued. The discussion of the resolution
proposed must have been very damaging to the
Government. Many had expected that the policy of the
Government would be that of non-interference, at the same
time with a support of the freedom of Italy. What must
have been their surprise, and that of the whole of Europe,
when they heard the noble lord declare that he had no po-
licy at all except that chalked out by his predecessors. This
should be a caution to those who depreciated a policy in
utter ignorance ef what it was. (Hear, hear.) A few nights
ago Lord J. Russell had referred to a despatch of Lord
Malmesbury, as sheaving that the present and the late Go-
vernment had pursued the same policy in offering advice to
Germany. By the Federal Pact it rested with the German
powers to decide whether they would make a casus belli of
an attack on the territory of a power which lay beyond the
Confederation. Lord Malmesbury had taken this view, and
had advised Germany accordingly. It was possible that
the details of the treaty of peace would have to be carried
out by a European Congress, in which this country might
take part ; but he doubted whether it would be wise in the
Government to do so, as this country had taken no part to
the war. (Hear, hear.) But it was clear from the speeches
of Lord J.lRussell, Sir C. Wood, and others, th t they anti-
cipated being called on to act as negotiators. One of these
speeches the right hon. gentleman characterised as contain-
ing language of menace which was calculated to compro-
mise this country. Probably the Government would enter
into negotiations in the same spirit ; if so, nothing would
be more calculated to disturb our peaceful relations with
other Powers. (Hear, hear.) Whatever occurred, he hoped
the Government would strictly adhere to the principle of
non-intervention, at the same time firmly asserting what
they felt to be the honour and the interests of our own coun-
try. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I certainly thought it quite unne-
cessary to take any notice of the speech of the noble lord
(Lord Elcho). He seemed to have reflected upon the mo-
tionof which he had given notice, and to have come to the
opinion that he had much better not make it. (A laugh.) I
'quite agree with him in that opinion, and certainly it was
quite harmless for him to indulge in a sort of triumph and
jubilation when he was in reality retreating from the posi-
tion which he had taken up. (Hear, hear.) He seemed to
enjoy a sort :of triumph in considering that any wishes
which my noble friend (Lord Palmerston) and I might have
had for freedom in Italy would be disappointed. That may
be the case ; but I am sure that I shall not be ashamed, and
I do not think my noble friend will Sever be ashamed, of
suying that our wishes are in favour of freedom in any
country in which free institutions can be introduced. It is
one thing to say that you will use the power of a country—
that you will interfere with the means of a country, in order
to introduce free institutions into another country ; it is
another thing to rejoice when those free institutions pros-
per, and to lament whenever they are destroyed. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman who spoke last has referred to
Mr. Canning. I remember that Mr. Canning spoke in this
house on the subject of the great invasion of Spain. The
Spaniards had establisned free institutions in that country ;
the French had forbid them, and were invading Spain to put
down those free institutions. Mr. Canning then declared
that the policy of this country was neutrality; at the same
time he did not hesitate to say that his wishes were that the
Spaniards might be successful in resisting that interference.
(Hear.) Mr. Canning did not go at all beyond the line which
a Minister must observe in thus expressing his wishes, at the
same time that ho declared the policy which the Government
would follow. The right hon. gentletnan has referred to the
conduct of the late Government. lam very glad that Lord
Elcho has not made it necessary for the house to discuss that
conduct. I am ready to believe that they were all along
endeavouring., to the utmost, with impartiality and with
care, to preserve a neutral position, and to prevent the evils
of war. And I remember that when there was a question
about Lord Malmesbury going to a congress, I said that
there would be neither ability nor inclination wanting to'
bring that congress to a happy termination ; when the papers
had been produced, I said that it was but fair to presume
that everything in these papers would be favourable to the
party in power, and would make out no eve against their
impartiality. But if we had had to go into all the particu-
lars of their conduct, there would have been points on which
I should have said that they had not taken the view which
in my opinion was most like to lead to a satisfactory issue,
especially in the beginning of those discussions with France,
when I think much might have been done that was left un-
done. But Tam glad not to have to enter into that discus-
sion now. But Mr. Fitzgerald thinks fit, with the very
little knowledge of the subject which he possesses, and the
little which I have thought it consistent with my duty to
disclose, to find fault with the present Government for the
course which they have pursued. He refers to an instance
in which I was blamed for advising Prussia not to interfere,
as we thought prematurely, in the war, not to place herself
in the ranks of the belligerents. In answer to that I quoted
a despatch of Lord Malmesbury's, in which he used the
strongest terms to the same effect, telling Prussia that her
coasts would be ravaged, and that he could give her no assis-
tance. (lear, hear.) That despatch was not only sent to our
Ministers at the German courts, but it was also communi-
cated to tho Ministers of the German courts resident hero ;
so that the courts might have full information of the noble
lord's views. Ido not doubt that the advice which the late
and the present Government gave to Prussia, to consider well
and to pause before she made herself a belligerent, had an
effect in producing that moderate. and as I think wise, course
which Prussia has pursued. I believe that her refraining
from entering at once into the arena of war did tend very
greatly to circumscribe the sphere of hostilities. Had she
at once entered into the war on the ground that that war
was approaching the Mincio, it is difficult to say to what
extent the war might have been carried, or at what period
peace might have been attained. I have received a letter
this very day from Naples, in which it is said that Naples
was not disposed to enter into the war, but that if Russia
and Germany had joined in it, it was probable that public
opinion in Naples would have "been so strong that the
Government would have been unable to refrain from imme-
diately taking a part in the hostilities. I believe that the
whole of Italy and the whole of Germany would have been
drawn into the war. I rejoice very much that peace is re-
stored. (Cheers.) The hon. gentleman says that it is a
question whether or not we should take any part in a con-
gress to settle the terms of the peas. That is a question of
the utmost importance—it is a. question, I think, to which
every man in Europe will look with anxiety. (Hear, hear.)
I understand that the Emperors of France and Austria are
not completely agreed upon the subject. At all events, the
question is not before us in a shape in which we can pro-
sunie to decide upon it. It appears to me that the influence
of England ought to be used—if it is used at all on this
subject—to confirm the peace, to improve any treaty ofpeace,
if it is possible for us to improve it, and at all events to see
that there is nothing in our conduct which might lead -to
our abandoning that neutral and impartial position for
which the hon. gentleman takes so much credit to the late
Government. For my own part, I believe that the mainte-
nance of that position is in accordance with the universal
opinion of the peoplb of this country. (Hear, hear.) There
were abundant reasons for our maintaining that position. I
ventured myself, in speaking to my constituents, to state
the, case of both the belligerents, and to explain why I
thought that neither of them was entitled to the assistance
of this country. Tam sorry to,say.it then seemed to me
that the Emperor of France going into Italy was not likely
to consolidate the liberties of that 'country, o:—(the re-
mainder of the noble lord's sentence was lost, owing to the
extremely low tone in which he spoke, and there were cries
of "Speak up.") I have the same apprehensions still;
but., at the same time, it is impossible Coley down ony par-
ticular rule beforehand for our guidance in ,the negotia-
tions. The hon. gentleman takes great credit to himself
for what the late Government did. lam not disposed to
deny or dispute that credit ; and certainly I can only say,
in regard to the present juncture, that we are bound—if we
are called upon, with the whole of Europe, to consider any
treaty- of peace which may be made—not to participate in
any troaty of peace which is not conformable to our notions
of the honour, the digniry, and freedom of this country.
(Cheers.) It is with a view to the maintenance of that
dignity that we should be disposed to act. I will say no-
thing more at present on this subject. It is well that the
noble lord's motion has not come under discussion. When
our own conduct is impugned, I shall be perfectly ready
and happy to afford every explanation. (Hear.)
THE ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he had given notice that he would
move to have the estimates submitted to a select committee,
but in consequence of the lateness of the session he did not
mean to press it. (Hear, hear.)
the
eThchae
ihrouse then went into aor olikm
et a is tt
The vote of £114,537 for w .
sea service was agreed to, as were the following :
L 123,500 for fortifications.
£23,409 for civil buildings. teoree:::: .tikhiellanssEdicanind
waTos huaelli,o-oeatvegoroeetfego3fto6;347lo,of6o;r
for general
aftoefaraavrash, short discussion,
Mr. WILLIAMS complained that Evilly men were ad-

vaned in the higher class of the army, not through the
services they had rendered, but on account of influence.
Agreed to.
The following votes were agreed to :-
£265,702 for retired officers.
£395,600 for pensions to widows, &c.
£24,433 for pensions for wounds.
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
The committee then proceeded to the civil service esti-
mates.
. On the vote of £667,000 for salaries, &c., at the customs,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained that this sum was
largely increased since last year.
Mr. LAING said that the amount appeared larger be-
cause these votes were now more Correctly apportioned
amongst the various services than they had been.
Agreed to.
The vote of £1,151,000 for the Post-office was agreed to.
The vote of £326,000 for the superannuation allowances
was agreed to.
On the vote of £44,980 far the expenses of royal palaces,
Mi. WILLIAMS again protested most earnestly against
proceeding with these estimates when no time had been
given to members to considey them.
Mr. FITZROY put it to the han. member that consider-
ing the exceptional nature of the session, these estimates had
been sufficiently long in the hands of hon. members.
After an observation from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Lord PALMERSTON hoped the house would, at least,
allow his right hon. friend to pass such of the estimates as
were not objected to.
Mr. WILLIAMS protested against the course of the Go-
vernment, and announced his intention of taking the sense
of the house on the motion to report progress.
Lord PALMERSTON repeated his hope that the com-
mittee would allow the undisputed estimates to pass.
Mr. J. WILSON reminded the house that usually these
estimates were the first business after Easter, and now they
had arrived at the 15th July. If they, however, postponed
them now, they would subsequently have to pass them hur-
riedly at morning sittings, most likely without any conside-
ration at all.
Sir J. PAXTON was willing to accept the arrangement
proposed by Lord Palmerston-namely, to pass the unques-
tioned estimates, and to postpone those upon which a dis-
cussion was expected.
Alter an observation from Mr. DODSON,
Mr. 'WILLIAMS expressed his firm conviction that Lord
Palmerston knew nothing about the votes which he asked
might be passed without discussion. (A laugh.) He (Mr.
Williams) knew that money was wanted for the royal pa-
laces, but there were certain items is these votes upon which
he should like to make some observations. How could the
noble lord understand votes which had been prepared by a
previous Government ?
Lord PALMERSTON admittodthathebadnof examined
the votes, but his right hon. friend had, and would be pre-
pared to vindicate them. If his hon. friend would not give
some confidence to the two governments, they would hardly
get through these estimates before September.
The committee then divided on the motion to report
progress-
Ayes ....
Noes
The vote was agree to.
£8,2740 repairs of public buildings; £lB,OOO furniture in
public offices; £17,525 expenses of the new Houses of Par-
liament... Agreed to.
In answer to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Mr. FITZROY said it was understood that this was the
last vote that would be required for the works, except what
might be necessary for the annual expenses connected with
so large a building.
Mr. BALL asked if £6,500 was required for the clock ?
Mr. FITZROY said that £4,000 of the vote was for the
tower.
Mr. BALL said that they had been watching the clock
anxiously for months. (Hear, hear.) Sometimes it went,
and sometimes it was still ; sometimes it struck, and some-
times it refused. (Cheers.) He wished to know if this
vote would complete the works ?
Mr. FITZ ROY replied that the present vote would in-
clude the whole expenditure.
Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART thought that the pre-
sent vote was one that ought to be postponed.
Mr. AYRTON complained or the mode of ventilation
adopted. When the house got warm, cold air was pumped
in at the feet of hon. members, thus driving blood to the
head, and compelling them to leave the house. In addition
to this, they were treated with the most abominable odours,
sometimes chloride of lime, and sometimes the unmitigated
stench of the Thames. In fact, all their measures were
carried on in the most absurd and extravagont manner.
Sir H. VERNEY was understood to say that a com-
mittee of which he was a member were engaged in an in-
quiry when the new Houses of Parliament were about to be •
built as to a change in the site, and it was stated that the
real reason why they were kept in that spotwas because the
Government wished to have a means of escape from mem-
bers, and the river Thames afforded a better mode of escape
than the parks. With regard to the mode of ventilation,
he himself kept a pair of worsted stockings and gaiters for
wear in the house, in order to keep his feet from the cold air.
Mr. FITZROY said with regard to ventilation he be
lieved that the plan of Mr. Goldsworthy was the best. It
was difficult to obtain an equal temperature in the house
towards morning, which was, he believed, the time that
members suffered most from the ventilation; for perhaps
after a debate in a full house of 400 members, most of them
streamed out, and that necessarily created a great change
in the temperature. It was impossible that the most
scientific ventilation could be complete, and he believed
that Mr. Gurney did the best he could.
Sir B. BRYDGES suggested that some of the windows
in the lobby should be set open.
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were agreed to without observation :
-£29,130 for expenses connected with the Probate Court
and registries, £5,550 for British embassy houses abroad.
On the vote of £174,000 for harbours of refuge,
Mr. BAXTER said he hoped Government would not go
on with this vote, inasmuch as the hen. member for Sun-
derland had given notice of an amendment, and he was not
present.
Mr. B LACKBURN said an additional reason for post-
poning the vote was that certain returns that had been or-
dered respecting it had not been made.
Mr. PEASE also supported the postponement. An emi-
nent engineer had told him that the works at Alderney
were a disgrace to the country.
Mr. GORDON remarked that these harbours were more
for war purposes than anything else, and the works ought
not to be interrupted.
Mr. WARRE hoped there would soon be harbours of
refuge along the eastern coast. These were works of great
utility and necessity.
Mr. MONSELL saidthe request of the hem.. member for
Montrose seemed to him to be a reasonable one ; it was that
the vote should be postponed till they had further informa-
tion. The original estimate for the harbour of Alderney
was £600,000, but last year they were told that an alteration
was proposed in the plan which would make it cost
£1,300,000. The committee did not know which plan had
been decided on, and it was therefore only reasonable that
there should be some delay until they had had information
laid before them on this important subject. (Hear.)
Mr. LAING said the votes did not involve any of those
large questions to which allusion had just been made. They
were simply to continue works which had been sanctioned
by the house. The vote for Dover was absolutely necessary
to prevent what had already been done from being washed
into the sea. The works at Alderney had been sanctionedby
two Boards of Admiralty. It would cost £1,300,000, of
which £BOO,OOO had been already spent. With regard to
the harbour at Portland, it was happily approaching com-
pletion ; another year's vote, in addition to the present one,
would finish the works. There could really be no objection
in putting a stop to the operations which were now in hand.
Sir W. MILES urged the Government to grant the short
delay whibh had been asked for.
Mr. BAXTER protested against going on with the vote.
There was a great difference of opinion as to the utility of
the works, especially with regard to Alderney. In order,
therefore, to bring the matter to a distinct issue he would
move the reduction of the vote by £75,000.
Viscount PALMERSTON submitted to the house that
these harbours had been undertaken after the most delibe-
rate consideration, and on the advice of the most eminent
authorities. Great sums had been laid out on them, and the
result of not finishing them would merely be to waste all the
money. As to Alderney it was a most important position
with regard to the defence of the country. It would not
be necessary, and, indeed, it would be invidious, to go into
all the circumstances of the case. It was sufficient to re-
mind the committee of the position of Cherbourg and Port-
land. (Hear.) In connexion with Portland, Alderney was
one of the watch towers of the country, and it would be
most prejudicial to the national interests to delay its com-
pletion.. (Hear, hear.)
Lord LOVAIIN'E thought the country must present a
milieus spectacle to foreign nations, when every year some
hon. gentleman on the other side tried to undo all that par-
liament had previously done..
Mr. BLACKBURN said the objection was not to the
vote itself, but to voting it without information.
Mr. HEN thought that before agreeing to the vote
N ,
they ought to have before them the plans which they had
been promised.
Lord DUNCAN, trusted the Government would not in-
sist on the committee's proceeding with the vote without
more information. It had been stated that if Alderney
were finished on its present scale, we should never be able
to garrison it ; and that we should only be building a fort
for the enemy. (Hear, heiti.)
Lord PALMERSTON said he held in his band the re-
port with the plans. It was printed, but had not been de-
livered ; and if the house wished to read it before agreeing.
to the vote, he should have no objection to postpone the vote.
The vote was postponed accordingly.
00,000 for the new packet harbour at Holyhead.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE remarked that the estimates for
this work had grown to £1,900,000, of which £400,000 was
for a breakwater, for the use of the transatlantic steamers.
It would therefore be desirable to consider whether Holy-
head wa to e the pint of departure for the Atlan tic
steamers,s other bwise theo expenditure would turn out to be
unnecessary.
Mr. LAING was much obliged to the hon. genileman,
and would make inquiry into the matter.
Mr. GLYN suggested an arrangement by which the
American letters might be delivered 12 hours earlier. He
said that although there had been an increased estimate for
the habour at Hlyhed, the increased acccommodation
for the r o
public was more than commensurate with the in-
creased expenditure.
On the vote of £23,403 for the annual expenses for the
service of Portpatrick Harbour, and for the improvement of
the harbour,
Mr. BAXTER moved that the chairman report progress,
observing that Portpatrick could never be made a safe and
efficient harbour.
Mr. LAING said this was an exceptional case, but he
considered that the faith of the Government was pledged to
the vote, and therefore trusted that the vote would be
agreed to.
COTE supported the vote, stating that
Sir S. NORTH
the railway company had gone to a considerable expense on
the faith of the sum now under consideration being granted.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was £70,421 for public buildings in Ireland.
After a few remarks from Mr. BLACKBURN and Lord
FERMOY the vote was agreed to.
The following votes were also agreed to, to complete the
sums requisite for the several services :-
£68,969 for the salaries &c., of the two Houses of Par-
liament.
£34,600 for the expenses of the Treasury.
£17,911 for the Home Department.
£42,800 for the Foreign Depart-lent.
£21,178 for the Colonial Department.
£10,593 for the Privy Council Office.
£33,942 for the Board of Trade.
£1,720 for the office of Lord Privy
.Seal.
£3,855 for tho Civil Service Commission.
£13,762 for the Paymaster-General's Department.
£4,898 for the Comptroller-General of the Exchequer.
£19,746 for the Office of Works.
£13,514 for the Office of Woods and Forests.
£9,498 for the Office of Public Records.
£52,379 for administration of the laws relating to the pecr.
£25,052 for the Mint.
£13,925 for Inspectors of Factories and Mines.
£3,179 for the Excb.erer (Scotland),