The Sun.
London, England, 1835-06-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, JUNE 18, 1835.

the following Comm
England and Wales
Harvey, D. W.
Aglionby, H. A.
Baines, E
Blackburn, John I.
Brotherton, J.
Campbell, Sir John
Colborne, N. W. R.
Divett, E.
Egerton, Lord Fran.
Follett, Sir W. W.
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he trusted that the House
would be prepared to adopt the resolution which he in-
tended to submit to them. It would rescind the reso-
lution of the House of the 11th of June, 1833. He had
been asked by an Hon. Member who had been on the Ipswich
Committee whether persons reported as guilty of bribery
were to be struck off the register ?—( Hear, hear.) He was of
opinion that that House was not the proper place in
which bribery ought to be punished. He thought
that such a crime ought to be punished by the due
course of law. That House was the ultimate Court of Appeal,
and ought not to take up such a matter in the first instance.
He thought it would be wrong and dangerous for the House to
to assume such a power by a resolution which ought to be
defined only by an Act of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord, who throughout was most imperfectly heard in
the gallery, moved a resolution directing the Speaker to direct
all Returning Officers to strike off all such names from the
Register as were reported to that House by a Committee as
having been struck off by them--and to add all others which
they found should have been inserted.
Mr. CALLAGHAN trusted that the Noble Lord would
so frame the Resolutions, that non-resident freemen who had
registered without swearing as to residence, should be re-
moved from the registry.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had so worded the resolution, as
to bring that class of voters within the clause.
Mr. GOULBURN thought that a Committee had full
powers to strike off such voters without having a specific clause
to that effect.
Mr. CALLAGHAN observed that a great number of voters
had been struck off by the Committee, but a great number
equally objectionable remained.
Mr. SHIEL thought the Irish mode of registration was ex-
tremely objectionable. At several elections voters had ten-
dered their votes, which had been received by the Sheriff,
although he thought they were not entitled to vote, but as
they were on the registry he received them.—(Hear, hear.)
By the present system, a very great expense was incurred.
Mr. SHAW was for an entire revision of the registration,
and contended that a definitive and uniform law upon the sub-
ject should be established. Two Committees of the House
had already declared that they would not revise the
decisions of the revising barristers.—( Hear, hear.) That
might be well in England where there was an annual regis-
tration, but in Ireland the case was widely different.
Mr. HUME had obtained leave to bring in a bill to remedy
this abuse, and he was only waiting the arrival of the Attorney-
General for Ireland to proceed.
Sir R. PEEL observed that the objection of the Hon.
Member for Tipperary would apply in principle to a registra-
tion for one year as well as to a registration of eight years. It
would be much better to pass the present resolution, and bring
in some remedy for the evil complained of.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL was quite sure that it would be neces-
sary for them to legislate upon this subject, for they would be
able to do nothing decisive without legislation. And here he
would ask the House what reason was there why there should
be an annual registration in England, and not in Ireland ?
( Hear, hear.) The octennial registration of Ireland was
productive of serious evils, because the voters went to the
poll with their certificates, and the validity of their votes could
only be found outby the expensive process of a petition. In Eng-
land the revising barristers were on the spot, but there was a
town in the county of Cork, the electors of which had to
travel seventy miles to register themselves, that ought not to
be-4 Hear, hear.) The Attorney-General did him the
honour to say that he was preparing a Bill on this subject, and
to ask him for suggestions, which, however, he would not ven-
ture to give, lest the work should be said to be his. In the
city of Dublin, a return was called for of those votes acquired
by birth, servitude, and marriage, and those obtained by spe-
cial qualification. The returns proved that none by personal
right were admitted, though now they were admitting them ;
and Chief Baron Joy, on an appeal, held that it was a good
right of voting. Now ought there not to be an annual revision
in Ireland ?—( Hear.) There should be a Judge and an assistant
barrister to conduct the registration every twelve months ;
then it would be known before every election, who was
entitled to vote, and there would be no occasion to
incur -the expense of a scrutiny before this House,
which expense was frightful, enormous, and disgraceful.--
( Hear.) If any error occurred, the evil would only last twelve
months, and would be much easier detected than at present.
He hoped the Attorney- General would bring forward his Bill
to amend Irish registration, and that he would lay it on the
table before the end of another week.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in the absence of the
Attorney-General for Ireland, begged to say that he thought
it of the greatest importance that a Bill should be introduced
for the purpose of amending the Irish registry. He saw no
reason why there should not be an annual registry.--( Hear.)
Be saw no reason why the Irish elections should last for five
days, while those of England and Scotland were over in two
days, and he hoped shortly to see them over in one.—( Hear. )
He concurred in the observations of the Hon. Member for Dublin,
that there ought to be an appeal from the decision of the re-
vising Barrister—(hear, from the Irish Members)--and then
that the registry should be conclusive.--( Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY begged to remind the House, that at the
time the Reform Bill was passed there Was no system of regis-
tering in England, while in Ireland they had a system of
registration ; and upon introducing the English • system
it was thought better to see how the new system worked in
England before they introduced a similar system into Ireland.
That had been the general understanding, and not from any
reluctance to put the two countries upon the same footing.
That had been the ground for the difference, and there was
still some doubt he believed among the Irish Members as to
the propriety of having separate polling places, and of limiting
the time for taking the poll at elections. The framers of the
Reform Bill were anxious to see how the new system worked
in England before they introduced the same system into Ireland.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON thought it would be advantageous
to have an appeal as well in the case where the vote was re-
jected (as at present) as when the vote was registered.—
(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member proceedd to com-
ment upon the statement of the lion. and Learned Member
for Dublin relative to the Corporation of Dublin admitting the
right of freemen. The Corporation had always claimed the
right of considering the right of every individual claiming to be
admitted to the freedom of the city ; and in the case of a
mandamus obtained against them in the Court of King's
Bench, the Corporation of Dublin had established their right
to use such discretion. With respect to the decision of Chief
Baron Joy, that he believed had been in favour of the Learned
Member for Dublin. He had seen different Reports of that
decision, and it appeared that his Lordship had reversed the
decision of the Barrister, the party claiming having produced
the certificate of the Town Clerk, and his entry on the books.
Mr. O'CONNELL begged to set the Learned Member
right. He had not been in Dublin at the time of the decision
of Baron Joy, but by the Learned Judge's decision a man had
determined his right to vote as a freeman, although the cor-
poration of the city of Dublin in their Report to that House in
the year 1831, had stated that no man could claim to be
admitted, or had been admitted as of right. Although, from
the year 1792 Catholics could be freemen of the City, many
were the sons of freemen, and many had married the daughters
of freemen. The Corporation excluded all they chose, and ad-
mitted the right of all they pleased. That was exactly the state
of the question. The Corporation having reported to that
House that they would admit no man as a matter of right, that
Report was laid on the table—he had sent for it to the Library
—an individual went into the Court of King's Bench to resist
this, and had been defeated there. They admitted an inchoate
right—that was a right which no man could enforce.—( Loud
cries of " Spoke.") I have spoken.
Mr. Serjeant JACKSON—The Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin stated that he was not in Dublin when this
question was tried. He recollected that the Hon. Member was
at the Session when the objection was made.—( Cries of
" No, no.") Why, the Hon. and Learned Member took the
objection himself.--( A laugh. )
Mr. O'CONNELL had taken the objection at a former
Session, but not so to have the question tried.--( Cheers. )
Mr. C. FE RGUS SON thought the point was of the greatest
importance that this question should be made a matter of legis-
lation. When a vote was once properly adjudicated upon it,
it ought to be final. It appeared to him, that to suffer the right
of a man to a vote to be canvassed every year, though it had
been established by a Court of Justice, was the most preposterous
thing they could possibly do.—( Hear, hear.) He would, in
the first place, have the right satisfactorily adjudicated, and
then he would not have it in the power of any man to impeach
his vote. This example was set by the ancient system of
Scotland.
Mr. D. RONA YNE could inform the Hon. and Learned
Sergeant that not only in Dublin, but in the different Corpo-
rations of Ireland, they had recognised rights since the Reform
Bill was passed, which had never been recognised before.
The Resolution was then put from the Chair, and agreed
to without any opposition.
WOLVERHAMPTON RIOTS.
Mr. TH 0 RNL E Y wished to ask the Noble Lord, the
Secretary for the Home Department, as it was known that
the Government had caused an investigation to be made at
Wolverhampton respecting certain disturbances that had taken
place, he wished to ask when the Report would be laid before
the House ?
Lord J. RUSSELL could only say that he had been in-
formed by Sir F. Roe that the Report could not be prepared
in less than 10 days. He had no objection to lay the entire
Report before the House.—( Cheers.)
UNIVERSITY OF LONDON.
Mr. TOOKE begged to know from the Noble Secretary
of State for the Home Department in what state the proceed-
ings were with respect to the granting of a charter to the
University of London?
Sir JOHN CAMPBELL said he believed he could
answer the question as well as the Noble Lord.--( Hear,
hear.) The matter had been referred to him as
Attorney-General—it was of the utmost importance, and he
would be quite ready to receive the suggestions of the Hon.
Member, or any other one.
THE CHANCELLORSHIP.
Mr. C. BULLER wished to know from the Noble Lord
(John Russell) whether or not any Bill was in prepa-
ration for the purpose of regulating the office of Lord
High Chanceller, and especially for the purpose of disjoining
the judicial from the political functions of the office.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, it was well known that the
present arrangement was a temporary one; but as the question
•

iittee was nominated

on the Charities of

Goulburn, H.
Hodges, T. T.
Hume, Joseph
Inglis, Sir R. H.
Law, Hon. G.
Lushsngton, Charles
Peel, Sir R.
Philips, M.
Rolfe, J. M.

Russell, Lord J.
Russell, Lord
Sandon, Lord
Somerset, Lord G.
Stewart, P. M.
Talfourd, T. Noon
Warburton, H.
Wilks, J.
Wrottesley, Sir J.

was one of so• much importance, he trusted he would be
excused from giving any answer on the present occasion.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know what arrangement was
made respecting the salary of the Chancellor. The words
of the Act of Parliament were express upon the subject. Sup-
posing the present arrangement was to become fixed, were
those who were Judges, and were receiving the salary of Jud-
ges, were they to be entitled to the salary of the Chancellor ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said there were Returns preparing in
the Home-office which would be :t answer the question of the
Hon. Baronet. It would soon be on the table of the House.
CORPORATION REFORM.

Sir R. PE ELwidedtc know what course the Noble Lord
opposite intended to pursue relative to the Committee on the
Corporation Reform Bill ? He had understood that it was
his intention to have gone on with it day after day ;
but as that course had not been pursued, he wished to know
whether he meant to go into Committee on the Bill pro forma,
and discuss the Bill on the bringing up of the Report.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was not his
intention to go into Committee pro forma, as the
alterations he intended to propose would be but few. It was
his intention to begin on Monday next with the Committee and
to proceed with it day after day. If gentlemen who had motions
for those days persisted in bringing them forward, he would
not be enabled to do so, but he should press upon them the
necessity of allowing so important a subject to take precedence.
LIMITATION OF POLLS BILL.

On the motion that the House go into Committee on the
above Bill,
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that he was in
general favourable to the Bill, as affording many facilities to
the collection of votes, and the prevention of the abuses so
common at elections ; but he thought it should be postponed
till the opinion of the Registration Committee was given to
the House.
Sir R. PEEL said that if the polls could be taken in one
day a great benefit would be produced, as this would tend very
much much to lessen the expenses of elections, and prevent a
continuation of those outrages, intimidation, violence, and
undue influence, that now so frequently obstructed the free
exercise of the franchise. He would also wish to see the num-
ber of polling places increased, as this would give the voters
the facility of polling quickly and near home, and prevent the
marching of large bodies of persons to distant polling places.
He would suggest that the reference of questions to the Re-
gistration Committee be extended, and he thought this latter
point should be one of them. So friendly was he to the prin-
ciple of the Bill that he was of opinion it should not be hastily
introduced • but that its details should he further considered.
Mr. H CME said he had a Bill drawn up on this subject,
but he was induced to withhold presenting it from the fact of
the Registration Committee being on the eve of giving to the
House the result of their inquiries. He expected that Com-
mittee would have reported to the House that night ; if they
had, he would have introduced the Bill. However, he would
not oppose any good measure that had in view so desirable an
object as the reformation of the present system of taking the
poll. Though the present Bill did not come up to his notion
of perfection on the question, yet he would be glad to see any
one provision, any one part, of the general measure carried.
Mr. BULLER would beg to suggest to his Hon. Friend to
wait for the Report of the Registration Committee, of which
he (Mr. Buller) was one. That Committee certainly did much
but had yet much more to do. There were a great many ques-
tions before them, which he feared they could not get through
before the close of the session. It was suggested to delay the
Bill till the Hon. Member for Middlesex brought in his Bill;
but that Hon. Member said he would not bring in his Bill till
tho report of the Registration Committee was laid before the
House ; and as that Report was not likely to be laid so soon as
anticipated before the House, it behoved the House to see that
so important a subject was not to be stifled, though the present
Bill was not so perfect as was desirable.
Mr. EW ART was understood to suggest that the Bill be
referred to a Committee up stairs.
Mr. AGL lONB Y said the lion. Member (Mr. Hume) in
the Bill he intended to introduce had embodied all the pro-
visions of the present Bill, and others of a valuable kind, so
as to make the measure perfect. The great object should be
to promote the purity and independence of election, and save
expense, and give a facility for tendering all the votes in one
day. He thought the proposition of' sending the Bill to a
Committee up stairs should not be adopted. The Bill in its
present shape was too simple, its machinery was too imperfect,
for the purpose of practical utility, for in many cases it would
be found wholly inoperative. It should, then, be wholly re-
modelled. As the Member for Hastings proposed to have the
clauses discussed one by one, he could see no reason for post-
poning the discussion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was un-
derstood to recommend that the Bill be read pro forma, and
the several clauses and amendments discussed at a 'future time.
Colonel WOOD thought the number of polling places
should be increased everywhere.
Colonel SIBTHORP would suggest that no two polling
places be under the same roof, or even near each other, as
this would prevent a concourse of bodies of men, many of
them not voters, which frequently led to confusion, intimida-
tion, and riot. His suggestion was meant to apply to cities
and counties.
Mr. WARBURTON took the same view of the subject
as the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
An HON. MEMBER thought the third reading of the Bill
should be postponed, till they saw what the Registration Com-
mittee would propose. The part of the Reform Bill that re-
ferred to the polling should, it was suggested, be repealed,
and a measure de 1101:0 be introduced. The expense of the
erection of additional booths were made an objection. Now,
this expense would not be equal to the expense consequent on
No days' polling. This Bill should be well considered, be
fore they proceeded further. It was better to have one com-
prehensive Act, than many only touching on particular points.
Lord MORPETH said if the Bill passed, he would move
for additional polling places for the West Riding of Yorkshire.
Mr. ORD said the expense of bringing voters to the poll
from distant places, if the polling places were few and distant,
would be more than that of the erection of additional polling
places, which would afford a facility to the electors of giving
their votes without trouble, expense, or annoyance. His
Friend Mr. Elphinstone had designedly made the measure dis-
tinct and different from the contemplated Report of the Regis-
tration Committee. It had a single object in view—at pre-
sent, however, it was insufficient for the general purpose.
Mr. HARDY said though in the boroughs polling places
need not be increased an additional number was requisite in
the towns.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill. Several
Gentlemen rose to move their amendments to the Bill.
Mr. WARBURTON said, he thought the object of allow-
ing the Bill to go into Committee was to allow Mr. Elphin-
stone at a future stage an 'opportunity of moving his own
clauses ; but now it appeared that several Members were in-
troducing their own clauses. It was better to let the Bill first
go on in its regular course, and then introduce the discussion
on the clauses after.

The whole discussion was carried in so conversational an(
low a tone that it was impossible to collect more the genera
import of each speaker's few remarks.
The Bill was read a second time.

COLONIAL PASSENGERS' BILL.
The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Colo-
nial Passengers' Bill.
On the clause being read relative to the casks which shall
be used to contain water for the voyage,"
A MEMBER suggested that the owners should be restricted
from using any that had been previously employed for any other
puposes.

Mr. FIUME codld see no objection to the use of wine or
brandy casks. He thought it would be quite sufficient to de-
clare " that the officer shall satisfy himself that the casks had
not been filled with anything to render the water unhealthy or
impure."
Mr. O'BRIEN reminded Hon. Members that if the officer
was not allowed to use his discretion, oil casks might be used,
which would render the water very unpleasant, if not un-
healthy. He was aware that many vessels left Limerick last
season with emigrants, their stock of water being contained in
oil casks.
Mr. G OUL BURN admitted that it would be advisable to
specifically prohibit oil casks.
The clause was then agreed to.
Mr. HUME called attention to the sth clause, empowering
the inspecting officer to examine the provisions, &c., imme-
diately previous to sailing. He thought this interference would
be likely to cause injurious delays to vessels on the point of
sailing, and suggested that the officer should be required to
complete his search a certain number of days previous—say
three ; or, better still, that the provisions should be examined
and approved of before shipment.
Sir James Graham, Mr. G. Grey, Mr. P. Thomson, and
Mr. O'Brien, also offered suggestions on this clause, but in so
low a tone that they were inaudible.

Mr. WA RBUR-TON thought that the powers proposed to
be conferred on Custom-house officers of absolutely rejecting
a shipped stock of provisions, might be rendered the source of
great abuse in petty outports, where it would be difficult to
obtain a fresh supply, except from a favourite of the officer,
and at a ruinous price.
Mr. HUME argued against the minute and vexatious le-
gislation pursued in Bills of this nature. He thought it would
be quite as consistent to order an inspection of the steam-
boiler of a packet preparatory to every trip, for it might blow
up and destroy the passengers if not kept in a sound working
condition, as had indeed frequently happened.
Mr. GOULBURN and Mr. LABOUCHERE vindicated the prin-
ciple of the Bill, which only interfered to protect those whom
it was not the interest of the shipowners to take care of. The
latter would look to the sufficiency of their boilers for the sake
of their vessel, while it was found by experience that in many
cases they allowed the poor passengers to starve.
Mr. O'BRIEN bore testimony to the facts that out of
2,500 poor emigrants who left Limerick last year 500 died on
the passage. Those vessels had set sail for America in a
state not fit to cross the Channel to England, the proof of
which was that from the third day after their departure the
pumps were obliged to be kept going all the voyage.
Mr. ROEBUCK urged the necessity of the strictest sur-
veillance. Last year there were 30,000 poor emigrants (for
the most part quite destitute) sent out to Canada without any
arrangement to keep them from starving during the five or six
months that the country was bound up in frost and snow.
Mr. CL AY submitted that the example of the East India
Company (with respect to the systematic inspection to which
their ships were subjected previous to a voyage) was the best
that could be followed in the present case. The happy effects
of this course was that the Company's insurance did not
amount to one-sixth of the ordinary rates, for no ship of theirs
was allowed to sail unless first approved sea- worthy. Their
ship stores never spoiled or afforded subject of complaint ; in
fact, no bad provisions were offered to their vessels, for it was
well known that they would previously be inspected. If emi-
grant vessels were compelled to adopt similar salutary arrange-
ments, they would no longer hear the just complaints of poor