The Sun.
London, England, 1859-11-30 00:00:00

THE siTiv
, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, NOVEMBER 80, 18b9.

211. E SHIPPING INTEREST'

GREAT MEETING AT THE LONDON

TAVERN.

• A general meeting of shipowners, shipbuilders,
thipmasters, shipping tradesmen, and others inte-
rested in shipping, was held yesterday afternoon
at the London Tavern, Bishopsgate-strect," to take
into consideration the present ruinous condition of
the British shipping interest, and to adopt peti-
tions to Parliament praying for a comprehensive,
searching, and impartial inquiry into the actual
tetate of British navigation, and the causes that
have led to its present depression, as well as into
all the laws and regulations under which it is now
conducted."

The large room, platform, and gallery were
densely crowded by the most influential members
of the classes interested ; the chair being occupied
'by Mr. R. W. Crawford, M.P., for the City of
London. Amongst the gentlemen present-we ob-
served Lord Valletort, M.P., Mr. Somes, M.P., Sir
J. Duke, M.P.. Mr. S. Cave, M.P., Mr. H. Taylor,
, Mr. W. S. Lindsay-, M.P., Col. Sykes, M.P.,
Mr. b. Seymour, M.P., Mr. Lever, M.P., Mr. Jas.
Beasley, Liverpool ; Mr. Wm. Drew, Mr. George
Marshall, Mr. Duncan Dunbar, Mr. G. F. Young,
Vice-Admiral Collier, C. 8., Mr. Wigram, Mr. B.
Carrol, Cork •, Mr. John Allen, Mr. A. G. Robin-
ron, Mr. F. Somes, Mr. G. Seymour, Mr. A. Ridley,
Mr. W. H. Tindall, Captain Gilmour, R.N., Mr. S.
G. H. Holmes, Mr. J. Alcock, Mr. 3. Anderson,
Mr. Bramley-oore, Mr. F. Youngi Mr. N. Gould,
Mr. H. Westmoreland, Mr. F. Goodliffe, Mr. C. A.
Stewart, Mr. W. Temperley, Mr. W. Phillips, Mr.
H. T. Wilson, Liverpool ; Mr. M. I. Wilson, Liver-
pool; Mr. M. Barwise, Whitehaven ; Mr. W. O.
Young, Mr. Smurthwaite, Mr. M. D. Rucker, Mr.
0. Bovine, Captain Domett, Mr. M. Pratt, Captain
Shuttleworth, Captain Toiler, Mr. C. Magnay,
Captain Were, Captain Onslow, Mr. G. Offer, Mr.
• I. Rogers, Captain Trew, Mr. Shepherd, Mr. Bonus.
The following gentlemen attended as deputations
from the undermentioned ports :
Hull—Mr. H. J. Atkinson, deputy•chairman
Shipowners' Committee.
Middlesborough-on-Tees—Mr. B. Holmes.
Montrose—Mr. W. Baglehole.
Topsham—Mr. J. Holman and Mr. A. Holman.
Scarborough—Mr. T. B. Walker.
Liverpool—Mr. J. Smith and Mr. F. A. Clint,
chairman and deputy-chairman of Shipowners'
Society.
West Hartlepool—Mr. I. G. Wishart and Mr.
B. Holmes.
Sunderland—Mr. Taylor Potter, Mr. T. C. Simey,
and Mr. Waite.
Letters of apology, regretting inability to attend
the meeting, were received from Lord Stanley,
M.P., Baron Meyer De Rothschild, M.P., Mr. Fen-
wick, MY., Mr. Ayrton, M.P., and Sir Hugh M.
Cairns, M.P.
Letters were also received from the following
Shipowners' Societies, cordially agreeing with all
the objects of the meeting, but not considering it
necessary to send a delegation :—Glasgow,Greenock,
Plymouth, Brigham, Maldon, Jersey, Yarmouth,
North Shields, Diver, Bristol, Falmouth, and
Swansea.
On the motion of Mr. G. F. YOUNG, seconded by
Mr. G. MARSHALL, Mr. Crawford, M.P., was voted
to the chair unanimously.
The CHAttimAN then rose and said that he had
come that day as one of the representatives of the
City of London, at the request of many gentlemen
in the city for whom he entertained great personal
respect, and that as to his own personal feeling in
the matter, when it was first proposed to him to
come there and take part in the proceedings, he felt,
and he expressed it to the gentlemen who waited
upon him, that some misapprehension might arise
lest the opinions which, as a public man, he was well
known to have entertained on certain matters ofdeep
interest, might be considered so farout of unison with
them as to render his presence questionable. How-
ever, if his presence could in any way be advantageous
to the meeting he should be pleased. He was much
gratified to find, from explanations given to him, that
it would be perfectly consistentwith his own opinions,
and every sentiment he had uttered on the subject,
to attend there that day and render himself as ser-
viceable as he could, and to promise them that,
whether in or out of Parliament, it would afford
him the greatest personal satisfaction to render to
the shipping interest every assistance in his power.
It was not only as a matter of duty that he had
come there. He was himself in early life a ship-
owner. He could, therefore, readily appreciate the
proceedings of those who complained of the difficul-
ties under which that interest laboured, and, as a

merchant largely connected with the East, could
bear testimony to the distressed state of that trade.
He had had an opportunity of forming a clear opi-
nion of the extent of that distress, and as a public
man and an individual he could not but view with
deep concern the state of things which they had
assembled to consider. When he reflected on the
magnitude of the shipping interest of this kingdom,
and the various interests that depended upon it, he
conceived it to be his duty to his constituents, as a
mattter of sympathy with the shipping interest, as
a matter of public policy, as a merchant, and as an
individual, to render any assistance in his power
towards attaining the objects for which the meet-
ing had been convened, viz., to take into considera-
tion the present ruinous condition of the shipping
interest. It was not for him in any way to antici-
pate the observations that would be addressed to
them by the gentlemen who had taken charge of
the various resolutions, but it might not be out of
place if he told them how matters now stood as far
as regarded the Legislature. At the close of the
session of 1858 he gave notice in the House of Com-
mons that early in the following session, about
the beginning of February, he should move for the
appointment of a committee of inquiry into the ope-
ration upon shipping of certain acts of Parliament.
These acts of Parliament were, first, Lord Camp-
bell's Act, which was never intended when passed
to apply to shipping; secondly, the Merchant Ship-
ping Act, which comprised the whole of the legis-
lation bearing directly upon the shipping interest ;
and lastly, the Passengers' Act; for it seemed to
him that very much of the disqualification under
which the British shipping interest laboured was
more or less to be attributable to the operation of
these experimental acts. (Cheers.) When Parlia-
ment assembled he was prepared to bring forward
his resolution at a suitable time; but in the mean-
time Mr. Lindsay, who was probably unaware of
his notice being on the books, gave notice of a com-
mittee of inquiry into the burdens upon shipping.
Now, his object was to do his duty, and to serve
the interests of the shipowners and the shipping
community generally. Therefore, when Mr. Lind-
say, with the large knowledge which he could bring
to bear upon the subject, and the personal expe-
rience he had acquired, was willing to undertake
the duty, he was ready, not to take the big drum,
but to play the second fiddle on the occasion,* and
was glad to find, when the motion was brought be-
fore the house, that an unanimous assent was given
to it. The difference between the two motions was
this—Mr. Lindsay's object was to inquire into the
burdens on shipping—that was to say, into the
fiscal burdens upon shipping—and his hon. friend
stated in very clear terms the nature of those bur-
dens, and the course of inquiry which he proposed.
Those burdens were the passing tolls, the local
dues, the duties upon timber, the light dues, and
other imposts of that description, which formed, as
it were, a fiscal charge upon the shipping interest.
His views were so far different from those of Mr.
Lindsay that he thought the main difficulties under
which the shipping interest laboured were owing
to legal requirements and restrictions. A commit-
tee was granted. It met but once. It met to choose
a chairman, whom he should be glad to see chosen
as chairman again if the committee should be re-
appointed—he meant Sir G. Lewis--because he
was perfectly certain, whatever opinions he might
• entertain, there was no man better able to bring
his mind to an examination and elucidation of any
question which came before him. The committee
met once, and shortly afterwards they were sent
about their business—some, he was sorry to say,
not to return. 'When the new Parliament met
Mr. Lindsay did him the favour of asking his
opinion as to the course which ought to be pur-
sued, and he replied that he thought it would
be very unwise during the short session before
them to go into anything like a critical examination
of the subject, and that it had better be postponed.
In that position they now stood, and this meeting
was therefore called upon to give the subject its
consideration, and hear certain resolutions which
would be propounded for their acceptance. It seemed
to be that the first duty which a committee would
have to enter upon would be to obtain an elucida-
tion of that which they would at once feel required
no proof, viz., the distress which existed, and the
nature of that distress ; and he would take that op-
portunity of recommending that gentlemen should
prepare themselves carefully to come before a com-
mittee with clear and distinct evidence as to the
eke ratter and nature of the distress complained of.
Let them, fiat instance, be prepared to explain the
na;'-ure of the distress of the shipowners in cornice-
tioi t with the American trade; let others show how
the v stood with respect to the Eastern trade ; and
let ethers show their position with regard to the
continental trade. Again, let them show whether
the distress of which they complained was confined
therLtselves, or whether it was shared in by other
na.tions. Then let witnesses come fully prepared to
state' in w hat respect British shipping laboured
Tinder disqualifications which other nations did not
contplair ►a. Let them show if a ship cost more to
build an d put together in this country than in the

United States, or the Baltic, or anywhere else
wherein that difference existed ; let them bring clear
proof that there were certain restrictions weighing
on British interests which it was the dlty of the
House of Commons to remove, and he would venture
to say that if thosethings were distinctly stated, and
the committee reported them to the house, the ship-
ping interest would find the House of Commons was
not backward in removing those restrictions.
(Cheers.) Then there were other questions involved
in the inquiry of Mr. Lindsay—those relating to
passing tolls, local dues, lights, and especially
the duties on timber. He looked upon the
duties on foreign timber used in the construc-
tion of vessels in England as one of the greatest
grievances which the shipping interest had to com-
plain of, and he should be happy to second or pro-
mote any movement which might have the effect
of relieving shipowners from that impost. (Hear.)
Then there were the legal restrictions which sur-
rounded tile shipping interest, but into that subject
he need not then enter. They were all capable of
understanding to what extent the clauses of the
Merchant Shipping Act operated prejudicially to
the shipping interest, and they were aware that,
in consequence of the absurd and ridiculous provi-
sions of the Passengers' Act, the passenger traffic
had to a great extent been driven from this country
and placed in the hands of foreigners. (Hear,hear.)
Having made these remarks, he would only repeat
that it would afford him the greatest satisfaction it
he could be instrumental in any way in removing
the difficulties under which shipowners were labour-
' ing. (Cheers.)
-Mr. SOMES, M.P. for Hull, moved the first reso-
lution as follows :—" That in the month of Decem-
ber of the past year the shipping interest, with an
unanimity without precedent, declared by public
resolution that British shipping was in a state of
deplorable and ruinous depression,' and addressed
the Crown, praying for a specific measure of relief.
That the executive government, while admitting
the fact of depression, declared it in reply to be
temporary and accidental,' and that British navi-
gation was even then recovering' therefrom ; while
the shipowners insisted that, its principal cause
being the impolicy of the existing system of mari-
time commerce, no permanent improvement could
take place while that system remained unaltered.
That nearly 12 months have submitted to the test
of practical experience the correctness of these
respective opinions ; and that at the expiration of
that time the shipping interest of the country now
finds itself placed in a popition of continued depres-
sion, difficulty, and distress, threatening the ruin of
all who are engaged in the varied and extensive
pursuits connected with navigation." Having read
the resolution, Mr. Somes added that he was pain-
fully aware of the facts it set forth ; that it received
his hearty concurrence, and that unless some remedy
werespeedily devised for the relief of the shipowners
an inquest would have to be held up= that body.
(Laughter and cheers.)
Mr. BRAM ELEY-MOOR, who, on coming for-
ward was loudly applauded, said he had al-
ways felt a deep interest in this question. He
was not ashamed that he took an active part
in opposing the repeal of the navigation laws in
1845, and he saw no reason to change the opinions
he then entertained, after en experience of ten
years. (Cheers.) But he felt called upon to say
that he thought the shipping interest had not been
true to themselves, and that they had treated the
question with too great delicacy, and not with that
freedom of remark which was required to enlighten
the British community in the provinces. It had
often crossed his mind that some acute person in
the shipping trade ought to imitate the example
set by Lord St. Leonards and others, and publish a
"Handy Book of Shipping." (Hear, hear.) It
would be of the greatest use to enlighten the people
in this country, for they knew little about the
grievances experienced by the shipping interest;
and without the shipping interest, what would be-
come of this great nation ? (Hear, hear.). Why, it
was upon our maritime supremacy that we depended,
and the royal navy would have to seek long for
men if our commercial navy were once to go down.
(Cheers.) He had always looked upon the shipping
interest as most important to the general interests
of the nation. Upon that ground he should take
his stand, and had he no interest in shipping he
should declare his opinion that the existing laws
ought never to have passed, and that they ought
now to obtain some modification of them. (Hear,
hear.) He might perhaps be allowed to remind
them that the parties who brought forward the re-
peal of the navigation laws raised the cry through-
out the nation that they were to have their goods
carried cheaply. What had been the result ? His
hon. friend the member for Stoke (Mr. Ricardo)
promised the potters of Staffordshire es an effect of
the repeal of the navigation laws that they should
have cheap carriage for their crates. But what was
the result ? They had now to pay more for freights
of rough carriage than before the repeal of the na-
vigation laws. lt might appear to be an anomaly,
and would appear to be to those who did not under-
stand the question ; but the introduction of foreign
shipping competing with ours, and not having the
same burdens, had enabled the foreigners to run
away with the fine freights, which they could carry
at low freights and still with large profits, and that
threw the rough freights on the British, who must
of necessity have a higher freight than they would
charge under other circumstances. Take, for ex-
ample, our carrying trade to any Spanish colony.
The Spanish ship carried all the fine goods at a
freight, which she could command, higher than the
British ship, on account of the differential duties to
be laid on the goods on their arrival at their desti-
nation. The Spaniards were wide awake, and would
not carry rough freights. The consequence was that
the British must charge for them more than they
did before, when there was a combination of rough
and fine freights together. (Hear.) But there was
not only the carrying outward ; there was also the
bringing home the return cargo. Let him instance
the carrying trade, for example, to France. Coffee
in a French bottom paid 563. duty per kilogramme,
but coffee imported in a British ship paid 84s. Sugar
imported in a French bottom paid 685., but when
imported in a British bottom it paid 84s. (Hear.)
Tobacco paid 4s. in a French bottom, but im-
ported in a British ship it paid Ss. He did not corn-
plan of this provided we looked to our own interests
at home. Every country had a right to impose any
duties it pleased ; but in a national point of view,
and regarding the interests of this great community,
we should look to British interests in the first in-
stance, and do that before we promoted the interests
of foreigners. (Cheers.) He was not afraid of any
competition with British ships. What he demanded
was a clear stage and no favour. (Loud cheers.)
Let him mention the blind thrown out in the recent
treaty with Belgium. It was trumpeted throughout
the country that we made the treaty with Belgium
upon the reciprocity principle, and that our shipping
was placed upon an equal footing and equal rights
with the shipping of Belgium. He had read this
in dozens of newspapers, but not one went into the
minutiae and particulars of the treaty ; and if they
read further than the preamble, which declared it
to be one of reciprocity, they would find clause 5
excepting the important articles sugar, rice, coffee,
dye stuffs, and almost every consumable article
imported into Belgium. (Hear.) Yet this was the
treatrwhich was put forth as one of reciprocity,
and received as such in the provinces to this day.
(Hear.) We now wanted to man our navy. How
could we do it except through the merchant marine;
and he was glad to see that the board of Ailmiralty
had taken a step in the right direction by having a
reserve for the navy, for it was as necessary:to have
a reserve for the navy as it was to have a standing
army for the protection of this country. (Hear,
hear.) How would they maintain that reserve
unless they maintained and encouraged the com-
mercial marine ? Since we had allowed foreigners
to take the place of British seamen in British
ships, what had been their conduct on several
occasions ? Why, that in cases of wreck the
foreign crew had deserted the vessel and passen-
gers, and left them to their fate. Foreigners were
destitute of those British feelings which ani-
mated the British tar, who was ready to risk his
life to save the passengers and the cargo, if it was
in his power. (Cheers.) There was one honourable
exception in the case of the noble Maltese on board
the Royal Charter. (A voice, " He is a British sub-
ject.") (Laughter.) Still he was a Maltese, and
he mentioned him with honour and credit, as an
exception to what we might expect from foreigners.
One of those things which have been of great im-
portance in manning the navy and the protection of
British interests, was the coasting trade. If the
question were put to Englishmen, not one in
10,000 were aware that foreigners were carrying on
the coasting trade round our shores at this moment
It was no exaggeration ; and when he put the ques-
tion to individuals, they expressed surprise. He
remembered when the bill was introduced for
throwing open the coasting trade to foreigners
that it was said it was of no consequence, as no
f..reigner would avail himself of the privilege. Ile
said, why then grant the privilege ? The thin
end of the wedge was put in, aid they might
depend upon it that from year to year
and
we ou l d
be driven home, and so surely al thatcase
se wouldqueu
tl
yßritisht hsupplysailors
of
men for
diminish
i the in
number,nay be v was
n h
d dimi-
nished also. lie found by the Board of Trade re-
turns that, in 1851, there were 285 entries of foreign
vessels, comprising a tonnage of 47,000 employed
in the coasting trade. In the ten months of the
present year ending in October, between Great
Britain and Ireland, there were 68 foreign vessels
entered, making an aggregate tonnage of 9,000
tons, and the whole of the vessels for the ten months
round our shores were 367, comprising a tonnage
of 58,603 tons. This portion of the trade, then,
was increasing, and would increase, because the

P
foreigners ',14
D,,-"gat e our shores, and could live'
sh sailor. -He did not want
of the privilege, but asked that
teohedaeppenry tehfaon retihat,ners
British seamen ShOT tld be placed upon an equal
footing, and that we / night run the race of competi-
tion on the same terit;s. Let him also point to the
advantage the foreign er enjoys from which we were
excluded, and that -ara s the trade with our own colo-
nies. Would it 1,,e, too much to ask-from France and
Belgium that we ohould carry produee to their
colonies on 'the same terms as they brought their
produce to England—;ii other words, to carry t 4 '
France our sugar on ti 'lose terms of equality on
which she brought sugar here ? At present we were
debarred from that, and w 'e gave them the bonus of
competing with us in our colonial trade, involving.
£80,000,000 annually; nut! he thought, when we
had so much to give away, we might well ask them
to give us something in return. (Hear, hear.) For
our concessions no foreign nation had yet given
anything in return. On th e repeal of the naviga-
tion laws a clause had been introduced which was
intended to blind the British shipowner, and that
clause promised that if the repeal was not found to
work well the Government should be invested with
the power of putting on reciprocity duties by an
Order in Council. (Hear.) Now he asked if the
British shipowners had made oat no case of griev-
ance or hardship to lay before Government to in-
duce them to try the effect of that saving clause ?
We were often told to look at the United States as
an example of liberty, free trade, and everything.
Let us then imitate the exaitipie of the United
States, and just do what they had done, and we
should have nothing to complain of. (Cheers.)
What did the President of the United States say
when Spain put differential duties on the "stars
and stripes ?" Why, he made short work of it,
and said to Spain, " Very well ; if you will put on
those differential duties, we will do the same."
That soon settled the matter. The question of re-
ciprocity was at once met, and he believed they
were now on a reciprocal footing with all the
world. That was the way to deal with them ; not
that we required even reciprocity with all the
world, because we could beat the world despite our
burdens, but we could not forget that there was
such a thing as being overburthened and over-
weighted. (Cheers.) He assured them that for
himself he was an entire and thorough-going free-
trader; but his view of free trade was of this
kind ; if I buy from you I expect the privi-
lege of selling to you as well. (Cheers.) He would
deal with a nation as he would with an individual:
' and, if a nation could not concede a fair reciprocity
upon every article, he would meet that nation, and
have that article excluded. (Hear.) Last year we
imported from France £144,000,000 in value of their
L manufacture; on which an enormous amount of la-
bour had been expended, and had yielded an im-
meuse profit to the French nation. In the same
time France had taken from us £4,000,000 in value,
and this was composed almost entirely ofz„unmsnu-
, factured articles, on which little or no labour had
. been expended. Our exports consisted of only raw
materials taken from the bowels of the earth and
other sources, but in which no manufacturing la-
bour had been expended. Surely it would not be
too much to ask France to receive on some defined
moderate duties our crockery, woollens, and other
manufactures. All this would tend to increase and
ensure the peace of the world, and that prosperity
of the shipping interest of both which they had
never known before. (Cheers.)
Mr. LINDSAY here stepped forward to address
the meeting, and his appearance was the signal for
a perfect hurricane of groans and hisses, inter-
mingled with cheers. The hon. gentleman pro-
ceeded to address the meeting at some length, and
with a considerable display of physical energy ;
but throughout his speech he was constantly inter-
rupted by discordant shouts, cries of " Traitor !"
" Off, off!" and other equally uncomplimentary
terms. In the course of his remarks, Mr. Lindsay
said he did not rise from a spirit of hostility, for
his object was to proclaim to England and the
Legislature that the British shipping interests for
some time had suffered, and were still suffering,
from great depression ; and he thought they were
bound to consider the best mode by which the
Legislature could relieve the shipowners from
that depression. The resolution stated "that the
principal cause of the depression had been the
impolicy of the existing system of maritime
commerce." (Hear, hear.) Now, he held that the
establishment of a free-trade policy had nothing
whatever to do with the present depression in the
shipping trade, and therefore he was bound to come
forward and offer his dissent. The resolution fur-
ther asked them to confirm a memorial which the
Shipowners' Society of London this time last year,
' addressed to her Majesty. He for one could not be
a consenting party to that resolution or memorial,
because he. firmly believed that the opinions ex-
pressed therein were fallacious. That memorial
urgently.requested her Majesty to issue an Order
in Council against those nations that have not re-
ciprocated with us. (Yes, yes, and no, no.) Let
than look at the difference between voluntary re-
ciprocity and the enforcement of reciprocity by the
Legislature. Enforced reciprocity, as asked for in
the memorial, was protection to its fullest force.
(No, no, and fair play.) It was so, because it was
retaliation. , (No, no, and great confusion.) It
was a war of tariffs; therefore it was protection in
its most pernicious form. It was to go back, not
merely to what we had in the days of Iluskisson,
but to the state of protection that existed in the
days of Cromwell. (No, no). Was it our interest
to retrograde? Our course was onwards.
A VOlCE—Rubbish.
INDIGNANT SHIPOWNER—YOU ought to be
ashamed of yourself.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG—I rise to order. (Cheers.) Sir,
I will not so far depart from the usages of debate
as to introduce a speech on rising to order, but I
submit that the course of the discussion is irregular
and unfair. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member has
publicly challenged me to discuss this particular
point with him, and I have accepted his challenge;
bat he has shrunk from it. I will, however, give
him a challenge. (Confusion.) It is a question that
I will not discuss here. (mar, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN decided that Mr. Lindsay was not
out of order.

Mr, LINDSAY continued—They had met to inquire
what was the best policy to be pursued—first, for
the nation at large; and, secondly, for themselves
as shipowners. (Cheers.) And the question before
them was whether the reversal of free-trade policy
v;ould be best suited for the interests at large?
(Hisses and confusion.)
Mr. G. F. YOUNG—No, we demand inquiry from
the Legislature.
Mr. LINDSAY contended that this resolution went
to the root of free trade, and confirmed the memo-
rial of last year to the Queen. (Cheers.) Now, the
answer given to the memorial by the Board of Trade
of the Protectionist Government of Lord Derby,
clearly and distinctly proved that under a free-trade
policy the British shipping had increased in a far
greater ratio than it ever did under a Protectionist
policy. (No, no.) It had been proved that from 1842
to 1849 British ships built and registered increased
843,000 tons, that was during a period of reciprocity;
but from 1830 to 1857 it had increased 1,670,000
tons, or more than double under free trade what it
did under protection. (Cries of " bosh") It had been
further proved that the entries and clearances of
British shipping nad increased—(hear, hear, no, no,
" turn him out," and cries of "turncoat")—in a
ratio equally as great as the tonnage built and re-
' gistered. He could produce undeniable facts to prove
that the British shipping interest, however muchit
might be distressed at the present time, had been a
gainer by free trade—(dissent)—and that it was not
for their interest to reverse that policy. (Hear, and
cries of " No, no.") If, then, instead of asking for
an inquiry into the actual state of British naviga-
tion, and the causes which led to its present de-
pression, they adopted a simple resolution to the
effect "That a petition be presented to both houses
of Parliament, praying for an in quiry into the actual
condition of British navigation, and for relief from
all peculiar burdens and restrictions which fetter
maritime enterprise," it would be a much preferable
course. Had any of them looked into these burdens?
He had done so; and they were a serious hindrance
to our onward progress. He could also tell them
as a thinking man that they were vainly attempting
to get what they called. reciprocity enforced. They
were losing, a chance, a favourable opportunity, of
obtaining relief from those burdens which still un-
justly oppressed the British shipowners. (A Voice—
" What is the amount ?) Nearly £2,000,000 sterling,
or 2 per cent. upon the amount of capital invested.l
Whilst that real grievance existed they were fol-
lowing a shadow—(oh, oh)—a shadow which they
would never catch-7a policy of which there were
not 20 supporters out of 650 members in the House
of Commons. In conclusion, Mr. Lindsay moved as
an amendment—" That a petition be presented to
both Houses of Parliament, praying for inquiry into
the actual condition of British navigation, and for
relief from the peculiar burdens and restrictions
which still fetter maritime enterprise."
Mr. DUNCAN DUNBAR thought the resolution
proposed by Mr. Somes had been attacked in a
somewhat unusual n:anner. (Hear, hear.) They were
not met to discuss what had, brought the shipping
interest into its present condition. They would all
admit they were on the road to ruin. (Hear, and
laughter.) There was not a person in the room who
would dispute that assertion. The simple plan to
pursue was to go to the Houses of Parliament, and
ask them to appoint committees to ascertain whe-
ther the assertion was correct or not. As the chair-
man had properly said, " bring your witnesses,
and state your grievances, and Parliament will
attend to your statements, and remedy the evils of
which you complain." e (Mr. Dunbar) was an
example of a shipowner, and a prosperous ship-

owner, but the very property he had acquired by
his industry and hard work was now melting away
ll
like snow before the sun. (Laughter and cheers.)
The man who called himself a shipowner, and moved 1
such an amendment as that which bad been pro-
posed by Mr. Lindsay, was the worst enemy the
shipowner could have. (Cheers.)
Mr. BEAZLEY, of Liverpool, said it was not his
intention to trespass on them with a lot of fancies ;
but he would endeavour to point out a few facts,
which were better than all the arguments in the
world. Last year there were imported into Liver-
pool from America 2,000,000 bales of cotton, em-
ploying shipping to the extent of 7,000 tons. And
he should like to point out a new feature which had
developed itself in the last twelve months, owing to
the extension of the electric telegraph from Ne'
York to New Orleans, and from Liverpool to Queens-
town in Ireland. It had become the custom to send
out from Liverpool orders for cargoes of cotton.
These orders emanated entirely from England.
Well, he was asked whether he would take an in-
terest in an order for 5,000 bales of cotton from New

Orleans. At first blush he thought he might em-
ploy one of his own ships in the business; but he
was met at once with the remark, "We cannot
employ a British ship, fot the success of the specu-
lation requires that we must employ American
shipping, and the ship must call at Queenstown and
take the cargo to Havre or to Liverpool, according
to prices at the time." (Hear, hear.)• But was it
right that, with orders from England to New Or-
leans, we should be prohibited from employing our
own shipping ? No sophistry, no perversion of the
English language, would ever induce him to believe
that this was free trade or fair play either. (Cheers.)
Our legislative enactments were giving such undue
advantage to foreigners as to throw our shipping out
of employment. He would assume a ship of 1,200
tons, a British ship, at Liverpool, bound to Australia.
She would take about 400 passengers. He would as-
sume that on the voyage she met with an accident and
put into that beautiful port of Pernambuco, where
she was sure to be condemned, for it was utterly
impossible to repair the British ship. They had not
a spar in the place that would make a mainyard for
a ship of 500 tons. Well, the consul would take up
a lot of small craft, and the passengers would be
forwarded on at enormous expense, which would fall
on the British shipowner. But if they took an
American ship, Brother Jonathan would go off in
a schooner from Pernambuco and never be heard of
again. (Laughter.) Then as to Lord Campbell's
Act. We had seen the evils of that act portrayed
during the last fortnight in connection with the
loss Of the Royal Charter, and the strong endeavours
made to fasten upon the memory of the unfortunate
Captain Taylor the stigma of drunkenness. (Hear,
hear.) What was the object of that ? To throw on
the owners of the ship a loss of about £45,000; and
this would have been accomplished could any two
scoundrels amongst the passengers have been found
who would have sworn to a lie. (Hear.) What was
the remedy for these grievances ? The constituen-
cies did not return proper members to the House of
Commons. (Loud cheering.) And at the next elec-
tion they must exact from every candidate a pledge
that he would go all for reciprocity in shipping,
whether the Government was my Lord Derby's or
my Lord Palmerston's. (Hear, hear.) Let reciprocity
in any case be the cry. (Cheers.) A great deal had
been said about the unnatural increase given to the
American trade, and he should be able to show the
undue and unfair influence which had been at work
to produce it. Although they might not believe it
—although our own magnificent colonies of Aus-
tralia and Canada were prohibited from sending
members to Parliament—yet the United States had
a representative in the British House of Commons.
He held in his hand written and unmistakeable
proof of his assertion. (Nams, name.) He held in
his hand extracts from a letter from a gentleman
who represented in the House of Commons the ship-
ping interests of a British port. If they had any
doubt about the state of our trade, that letter would
enlighten them. It was a letter from a gentleman
who represented a large shipping port, and was a
merchant and broker of this city. It was written
during the great emigration trade to Australia, and
was addressed to an American correspondent, and he
dare say a great many shipowners present would noir
understand why their offers of ships at the time
had been refused. The letter ran thus :
" Make your mind easy ; my position is such
that I am quite prepared to guarantee to any of
your American friends to obtain for them from the
Government the highest rate given on tho day of
tender, and place their ships where others could
not at any rate."
" I have the means of knowing and doing what
others have not."
The writer of the letter was the hon, member for
Sunderland. (Hisses and uproar.) Another letter
ran thus :
"The charter of the has given great satis-
faction to the leading American house of this city,
to the American Minister, and to the leading Libe-
rals in the House of Commons. Other four ships
are wanted, and if you direct attention to it, and
find us xmitable vessels, we will place the whole of
them. We will make the Americans do well on
this round, and having it in our power—l saw that
tender, and I will give him a handsome sum if he
sees any of the tenders."
Better the hand had withered upon the paper than
that it should have written anything so un-English
as that. (Cheers.) Was he not right, then, in say-
ing that America was represented in the ouse of
Commons ? Would it be believed the House of
Commons was composed of 653—he would leave
out one ? (Laughter.) The House of Commons
was composed of 653 gentlemen, loyal subjects of
the Queen (hear, hear), and he was sure they would
not rejoice to see the stripes and stars triumph over
our glorious flag, and. England anything but what
she was—the mistress of the seas. (Cheers.)
Mr. CLINT (Liverpool) supported the resolution.
Mr. POTTS (of Sunderland) also supported the
resolution, and said that he had been connected
with the trade of that port for the past 20 years,
and that he never knew it to be in such a depressed
condition as at present. Ho came before them as
a shipowner and shipbuilder, and he could tell
them that the material he used paid 10, 20, nay,
even 30 per cent. He asked them for equal rights
with Liverpool. Why should his timber-be taxed
and the raw material of Liverpool go free ? And
why should a bonus be given to the foreigner to in-
jure him in his trade? There was in Mr. Young's yard
a specimen—the Augusta Wattenbach. ,It was
built at. Bremen, but came over to this country,
but paid no duty, while he knew that if he had
built that ship, for the 1,300 loads of timber of
which it was composed, he would have had to
stump down £540 duty. (Hear, hear). The
anchors and chains weighed 40 tons; they came in
her duty free, but if they had been imported as
anchors and chains the duty would have amounted
to £lOO, it being fixed at £2 10s. per ton. Was
lie placed, then, as a shipbuilder and shipowner, on
the same footing as the cotton man of Manchester,
as the Spitalfields silk merchant, or as the Brad-
ford woool merchant ? Manchester was favoured
with a 10 per cent, duty, Spitalfields had a 20 per
cent, duty to protect them, and they were not able
to protect them, and they were not able to compete,
yet the shipowner had to compete in the open mar-
k of the world. Was it honest, or was it just ?
(No, no.) All he asked was fair play and equal
rights with all. Give us equal rights, and then
we can compete fairly. He would now give them
a single instance of the timber duties and their
operations. In his port lately they had a good
many south-east winds, and these had caused a
number of ships'to be blown on shore. There were
five or six wrecks at one time, and amongst them
was a foreigner. The captain of that ship thought
it would be a good job if he could get his ship sold
as a wreck. He advertised it, and a party soon
bought it, but found it a difficulty in moving it off.
In the meantime another breeze sprung up, giving
her another bit of a touch, sending her further on
shore, and nearly knocking her to pieces. Now, if
they had got the ship off they would not have had
to pay a penny duty, but when they began to
break her up down came the custom-house officers
and made the unfortunate purchaser pay for all.
(Hear, hear.) That was the operation of the tim-
ber duty, and they could easily see how it acted to
their disadvantage. Now, our Legislature had
opened up the trae to the world, and it was there-
fore a simple act of justice to open up the world's
trade to the British shiponer. The difficulty
was, they said, to find a remedy. It sometimes
happened that when there was a great weight
on a crane a counterbalance was of great ser-
vice. They could not get back protection, but the
Government could place then on the same footing
as the foreigner ; and if they could not get recipro-
city, could not the Government give them some-
thing of a counterbalance. (A laugh, and hear,
hear.) Perhaps the lion. member for Sunderland
would ask for it. (Laughter and order) He hated
the term protection, of course—(laughter)—it stank
in the nostrils ; but they might give a counter-
balance ; it was the same thing after all. (Cheers
and laughter.)
The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution and the
amendment to a show of hands. For the latter
about a dozen only were raised, and the original
resolution was carried with but one dissentient.

Mr. JOIIN SMITH, chairman of the Liverpool
Shipowners' Association, moved the next resolu-
tion :—" That Parliament, the Government, and the
public opinion of the country, fully recognising the
peculiar importance of the shipping interest as con-
nected with national safety, public policy, and jus-
tice to great private interests alike demand that the
system of maritime commerce should be forthwith
submitted to full and fair examination by competent
authority."
Mr. Hvon TAY LOR,M. P. for Ty nonouth, seconded

the resolution, and said that any one possessing the
smallest knowledge of British shipping must admit
the necessity for a full inquiry into its present con-
lition. shipping of Tynemouth was so horribly
embarrassed that unless some change took place
one-half of the people would be ruined. His friend
Nlr. Lindsay told him some two years ago that re-
ciprocity was the worst sort of protection. That
might be so, but he really could not see what he
meant. Take a French ship and an English ship
to Calcutta: The merchant for his own benefit was
compelled to give a preference to the French ship.
(Cheers.) Mr. Lindsay thought the removal of
light dues and passing tolls would be a remedy.
But what did they amount to ? The passing tolls
on a ship going to India were only a few shillings,
and the light dues did not exceed £lO or £l2 on
a vessel of 500 tons. It was clear that if we did
away with the passing tolls and the light dues
the foreigner would derive the same advantage
from the change as ourselves, and ho did not see
how the British shipowner would be benefited by
that. As a member of the House of Commons
he would do all he could to promote an inquiry into
the matter, and if he should have the honour of
serving on the committee he should endeavour, as
a practical man, to go into the most searching in-
vestigation. (Cheers.)
Mr. DUNmtR supported the resolution. He quite
agreed in what had been said respecting the passing
tolls and light dues, and was of opinion that if they
put £5O into his pocket and £5O into the pocket of
the foreigner they made no difference in his favour.
He woul just call the attention of the meeting to
the tonnage of British and foreign vessels which
entered with cargoes at ports in the United King-
dom in the years 1848 and 1858 :—ln 1848 the
British tonnage was 4,020,415 tons; foreign ton-
nage, 1,559,046 tons. In 1858 the British tonnage
was 5,234,424 tons; foreign tonnage, 3,583,113
tons. These were startling facts, and required no
comment. He complained that our rulers did not
love their country, but loved foreigners better. A
man had only to be a foreigner to have greater at-
tention paid to him than to the people of this coun-
try. Gentlemen, exclaimed Mr. Dunbar, I wish we
had the good old times of Oliver Cromwell back
again—(hear, hear)—then we should know how to
deal with foreigners.
The resolution was put and carried.
Mr. WIGRAM then moved—" That it be therefore
earnestly recommended to all persons interested in
British shipping at the various seaports of the
United Kingdom to prepare petitions for presenta-
tion to Parliament at the opening of the approach-
ing session, which, while abstaining from all expres-
sion of opinion on disputed points, should pray for
a comprehensive, searching, and impartial inquiry
into the actual condition of British navigation, and
the causes that have led to its present disastrous
depression, as well as into the laws and regulations
under which it is now conducted.. And that they be
further recommended by public meetings, and by
communication with the members representing in
the House of Commons their respective localities, to
invite and enforce a consideration of a question so
clearly involving the safety as well as the prospe-
rity of the nation." The prosperity of the mercan-
tile shipping did, indeed, involve the general inte-
rests of the nation. An appeal had been made to them
by the Lords of the Admiralty for a naval reserve.
That, no doubt, was a valuable thing ; but, if it were
followed up, it would hamper our foreign trade. Ono
of the provisions with regard to the naval reserve
was that a man must not be absent on a foreign
voyage more than six months without leave. How
would that affect our Indian trade and all our long
voyages ? That was a point which would of course
come under the discussion of the committee. There
were several other points, which, having been dis-
cussed to-day, he would not trouble them with ; but
he was sure that by an unanimous vote they would
succeed in their work. (Applause.)
Mr. CAVE, M.P. for Shoreham, seconded the reso-
lution, which was supported by Mr. CARRoL, of
Cork, and carried unanimously.
Mr. MARSHALL, in proposing the next resolution,
said that, in reply to their memorial to the Queen
last year, they were told that they were complaining
"without a cause, that what they complained of was
a mere passing cloud, and if they were patient they
`would soon find a better state of things. Now, they
had waited twelve months, and instead of improve-
ment he could with truth as a shipowner say that
at no period of time had they ever felt their posi-
tion so painfully distressing as within that period.
So far from the cloud passing away it was increas-
ing, and was calculated to overwhelm the whole of
them. Unless they got relief there was nothing
but ruin before them. The abolition of passing tolls
and light dues would give no relief to the general
shipowners of the kingdom. They wanted sub-
stantial relief, not a mere cheeseparing enactment.
(Hear,- hear.) Only yesterday his correspondence
florn Calcutta informed him that the rate of freights
in British ships for sugar, saltpetre, and other
goods was 10s. per ton to reat Britain ; going up
for bulky goods to 35s and 40s per ton. It also
represented that French ships had refused 70f.
and demanded 100 f. per tan. So that they wanted
100 f. for what we did for 10s. This was
painfully humiliating to the British shipowner.
Ile could further state as a fact that not only
his own ships, but those of many of his friends,
had come home in ballast from Now South Wales,
while, at the same time, French ships were
loading cargoes to bring from Sydney to the port of
London. These facts ought to convince the legisla-
ture, that only one result could follow, and he had
great pleasure in proposing :—" That the following
petition be adopted by this meeting, and that, when
signed, it be placed in the hands of Lord John Rus-
sell, one of the members of the City of London, for
presentation to the House of Commons ; and that a
deputation be appointed to wait upon Lord Palme-
rston previous to the meeting of Parliament, earnestly
to solicit, her Majesty's Government favourably to
consider its prayer; and that the committee of the
General Shipowners' Society be requested to make
all necessary arrangements for the said purposes."
[The petition referred to is an echo of the resolu-
tions.]
Mrs D. SEYMOUR, M.P., said—The time has
come when the shipping interest shall have a hear-
ing. It is very much to be deplored what I have
seen in a portion of the public press, viz., a spirit of
discontent and ridicule, which has been indulged in
t. o a great extent, to the slipping interest. If there
is any man who has a ground of complaint, be he
the Mechanic, or be he what he may, I think there
should be a court of appeal, if even it was at the
foot of the Throne itself. When the cry of distress
is raised by any class, whether it is the cry of suf-
fering from one or of depression from the other, it
must be admitted that that is not the time to treat
the sufferers with ridicule and contempt. That out-
break might be one day the " Wail of Montrose,"
and. the next the " Howl of Sunderland ;" but
whether it is the wail or the howl, the shipping in-
terest were crying out loudly for redress, and fair
and full inquiry, and I believe that, if you are true
to yourselves, the hour has come when you shall
have that redress. I stand here as a free trader—
as a radical free trader ; but, as warm as I am in
that cause, I have no less warmth in the cause of
the shipping interest. (Cheers.) I say that those
gentlemen who talk about free trade must know
that there is no free trade without reciprocity, and
unless you have the return of the tradewith foreign
countries it is a mockery to say that we have free
trade with that country. I say that the shipping
interest is not the free trade which the Manchester
manufacturer enjoys. There is too much of a cry about
Manchester. I have a great respect for Messrs.
Cobden and Bright, but I am not going to be Cob-
denised or Brightenised to the detriment of the
shipping interest. lam now determined to speak
my mind, if even I offend those gentlemen. The
manufacturer may employ what ships he likes to
send his goods out, but the free trade of the ship-
owner was a blind delusion and an absolute mockery.
Any person acquainted with the circumstances con-
nected with the repeal of the Navigation Laws must
see that this repeal put an end to the policy of past
ages. It is to be regretted that better guarantees
were not obtained before the shipping interest of the
kingdom was substantially plunged into that trial
of prohibition. No doubt there were circumstances
of a peculiar character connected with repeal. The
treaties of Huskisson were expiring, and we were
giving free-trade to our colonies. There were, no
doubt, many circumstances that excused our states-
men for the repeal of the Navigation Laws. But
what was our position with reference to America P
It was this, Mr. Bancroft, the American Minister
in this country, declared, "If you do little, we will
do little ; if you do much, we will do much ; if you
do all, we will do all." (Hear, hear.) But has
America done so ? She has nothing of the kind,
but has stuck more closely to, and surrounded her-
self within, the walls and fences of her own protec-
tive laws. (Cheers.) I was astonished to see a
paper the other day signed by Mr. Emerson Ten-
nant, purporting to be an answer to the shipowners'
manifesto. It was a ridicule and a slur cast upon
the value of the American coasting trade. (Hear,
hear.) Nothing could be more absurd than for a
consul to speak of the nature of a trade by referrine.
to San Francisco harbour instead of the trade of the
various pmts from San Francisco on the Pacific to
New Yoi k on the Atlantic, which are employing
thousands of ships in the coasting trade.ow,
the same conduct. which America adopts with reo•arl.td
her coasting trade -vith this country, she is
regard
carrying
out with regard to our fellow-countrymen in the,
Canadas. You all know that Canada wanted to open
her exclusive control over the St. Lawremte, and over
the great highway of her lakes and canals. But why?
Why, upon the faith that the inland navigation of
the United States would be open to the Canadians.
Five years pass, and Canada has got—what' Her
own commerce is every year more and more ex-•