The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-20 00:00:00

oetxeshreoivnised
game) of its propcli un _g to confer permanent powers on the . been rweived from the Government of France on the sub-
wwlithoow:cotontProtlhaneeed
eNli'atio3bne LOTAD J. USSELL'S DESPATCH TO
the enormous expenditure that might be incurred ilaY f°r jest r f the race'
Eoxwecersutivwee.re itlescionetina it
u
THE COURT
Tor anted period. (Hear, hear.) With regard to OF BERLIN.
vaccination, according to the provisions of the Poor
Act, adequate provision was made for vaccination, Law 'had appeared in the public journals,of
Mr: S. FITZGERALD asked whether a document which
as a copy the noble
........efore he thought it quite unneeessary to confer and. thr .e retranslated, was authentic, and whether a copy of it would
lord's despatch, and was stated to have been translated and
I Lac. _ .u.
4.hat be laid before the house
powers on rue ,!__vecutive% HQ C01r.12,1".1ed by movmg
the bill be re-committed.
Mr. Williams and Sir G. B. Pechell opposed the i dill Lord J. RUSSELL said that there were some errors in
p e was the despatch in an authentic shape, if the hon. gentleman
Mr. HENLEY said that a much larger Fin, ci 1 • the translation, and he should have no objection to give
He
righte
ei e
eh
toend. wouldmr. movenT za nG
ER addressA D for
said
he
in e theun d
involved in the bill than was supposed by thp,
neersnatolofdermtha. t a reply t
gentleman who introduced it to the house.
Most strongly to the power of visitation, by 'which domestic that desatch had been received from the Government ofe
privitcY would be invaded, and there aholitid be a very clear Prussia,and that the noble lord had thought it his duty to
case made out before the house oonse'ited to confer such answer that reply. Would there be any objection to lay
popular powers. lie thought that the powers might be those two documents on the table of the house at the same
un
continued for three years, but not longer ; and he sug- time ?
(Mr. Lowe) to accede - Lord J. RUSSELL said the correspondence was not
exactly complete. He must take a day de two to consider
, bt( s ee axe! erd.
compromise toT .
p theu rightTceof mttoßna
B.
description,
gentlemandenounced
the bill as one of the whether that further correspondence should be given.
gToss est jobs that had_
_ever been attempted to be perpetra MOrßßGtx.NTlSOANTelallONedOatFtenTtHianEtelthNDe
rleApeNrt AufßaleYc.ura_
on the house. He believed that it was only a ere God
-ernment that would propose such a measure, as it had not missioners on this subject, which recondmended that the
been attempted by a Tory Government. Having refeired
to the act of 1848, the hon. member contended that rope , and 190 000ra.
force to be employed in India in future should be 80,000 Eu-
settoyste—t!ila
to
270,000 men. The mill-
f thecoemnearinmalyetra,o,oo.He didit was most unjust to attempt to pass this bill under present tary policewould
circumstances. The measure had not been fully discussed; not question the propriety tye
recommen-
there was no time in the present session to discuss it, and dation, but thought it essential . that it should be discussed.
therefore the proper course would be to pass a bill con- The financial part of the question was a serious one ; no
tinning the powers to the Privy Council for another year, statesman looked without alarm at the financial condition of
and next year they could give the necessary discussion to India ; and every authority concurred in stating that in
any proposition for rendering their powers perpetual. 1 Southern India in particular the occupiers of land were most
(Hear, hear.) grievously oppressed. It was most essential that our. expendi-
Mr. COWPER said that much of the opposition to the ture in India should be reduced, in order to reduce the taxa-
present bill was founded on an erroneous impression which tion. With an army of nearly 400,000 men this would be
existed, that the measure was the same in its provisions as impossible ; such a force could only be maintained by means
that introduced in the time of Mr. Chadwick. He agreed of loans. Besides, it would be a most dangerous • t
that the bfil should be made permanent, as it would be the to put arms into the hands of 300,000 natives experiment
waspe rim:alid
means of enabling the powers conferred on the Privy Coun- this danger was provided against by 80,000 Europeantroops,
ell being carried out more efficiently. If the house on a but he doubted whether that was sufficient in the event of a
future; occasion considered that the bill did not act well they mutiny. He believed they were increasing and not dimi-
it. With regard to the bill he maintained it was nishing the risk of mutiny by putting arms into the hands
could repal
calculated id render considerable service to the public ; and of 300,000 trained natives. He challenged die noble lord
he adverted to the provision by which parties were era- the Secretary of State for India and the late Secretary of
mined with referelVe to their qualifications to vaccinate. War to give him some information as to the reason for
One of the great obketions to vaccination arose from its employing such an immense force in India. He rejoiced
being practised by unqualified persons, and this bill would that he had to put the question to the noble lord, because if
obviate that objection. It was proposed by the framers of the noble lord differed in opinion from the commissioners,
the bill to bring the recent discoveries of science to bear on he would not shrink from saying so. As the case stood in
a great epidemic, and it was a fact that 100,000 persons died the blue book, the proposition. of the commission was con-
annually from causes to which medical science might have demned by the greater number of witnesses, and those
beenapplied with success. Sanitary sciencehadonly recently of the greater weight ; it would lead to the ruin of the
attained to its present height, and it was only lately that finances, and the misery of the rayas of Southern India,
the causes of many epidemic diseases which were ravaging it would check education and public works, sacrifice
families had been discovered. He concluded by expressing the lives of English soldiers, weaken the strength of their
his conviction that the opposition to the bill was founded home defence, and prepare the materials for another mutiny
on an ignorance of its scope, or what would be its natural such as filled India with misery and ruin in 1857 and 1858.
operation on the interests of the community. Lord STANLEY rose to reply, but
Mr. SOTHERON ESTCOURT strongly opposed the The SPEAKER intimated that there was no motion be-
bill on the ground of its being permanent instead of tern- fore the house.
Mr. BUXTON moved that the report of the commission
poraryr.
M EDWIN JAMES opposed the bill, and alluded be laid on the table.
to what had occurred some time since at Croydon The SPEAKER—There is no motion before the house.
and Hitchen, where the Board of Health had Sir E. COLEBROOKE—I move thatthe house adjourn.
fouled a stream, which resulted in the outbreak of a (Laughter.)
fearful epidemic in the former place. The effect of the bill Lord STANLEY said the hon. gentleman challenged
would be to vest the whole power on this most important him to state whether his opinion agreed with or differed
matter of the public health in the medical officers, for it from that of the commission on the subject of the amount
could not be expected that the Privy Council would them- of force to be employed in India. Upon that subject he
selves interfere in the case of an outbreak of an epidemic. did not think it possible for any one set of men in this coun-
The result would be that local boards, finding that they try, whether civilians or military men, to lay down not
were deprived of all power by the system of centre.- merely what was the distinct and precise amount of force
lisation that was sought to be established by this which at this moment was required to secure tranquillity in
bill, would become apathetic, and the consequence might be India, but what amount of force would be required when the
most disastrous in the event of the country being visited tranquillity of that country was perfectly restored. (Hear.)
by a formidable epidemic. (Hear, hear.) He should not attempt to give a precise answer to the ques-
Mr. BASS opposed, and Mr. CONINGHAM supported, the tion. When the hon. gentleman said that no argument
bill. had been adduced to show why 80,000 European troops
Mr. LOWE replied. He complained that he had not were required, he did not know how they were to argue
received the support from hon. members on the opposite such a question, or how it cduld possibly be proved that
side of the house which he had a reason to expect from 60,00000, or
80000 was the right number of troops to
their conduct when a bill was brought in by Lord Derby's be em, 70,010 ed otherwise than by taking the opinion of the
most competent witnesses as to the amount. (Hear, hear.)
Government.
Mr. SPOONER denied that his party was open to any But when the. hon. gentleman said that the commissioners
censure for not giving the right hon. gentleman support on had gone against the evidence, he thought he could best
the present occasion, and strongly advised him to accede to satisfythe house on that point by reading a summary of
the proposition for aking the bill temporary and not per- the evidence. The noble lord read the opinions of the wit-
nesses, from which it appeared that with respect to Bengal
manent.
they varied between 40,000 and 50,000, and for the whole
The
For the third reading house then divided, when the numbers were— 101 of India they:varied between 60,000 and 80,000. No man
Against it 95 in India or in England appeared to be more strongly im-
Majority.. —6 pressed with the necessity of maintaining a large prepon-
was then read a third time and passed. Berating European force in India than Sir J. Lawrence.
The bill
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL. (Hear, hear.) No doubt a considerable reduCtion might
The adjourned debate on the second reading of this bill and oht to
n be
be made n
hertheyeafter
had wheconnected all r
n certain results
was resumed by had been od. Whe thei
principal military stations in India by railway, when the
of the oath of declaration to be taken to qualify for exer- comparatively newly-acquired territories had been consoli-
cising municipal office should be referred to a select corn- dated and accustomed to our ruled
been that disarmament
mittee, which was now taking place had more extens
Mr. SPOONER and Mr. NEWDEGATE opposed the and effectually carried out, then, no doubt, so large a mili-
bill, and severally contended that the abolition of the pre- tary force would not be required.. But if he took the actual
sent oath was calculated to injure the stability of the Church population of India, the proportion of military men to that
of England. population was not so great as in the majority of European
Mr. BAXTER supported the bill. , states. No doubt, in considering this subject, the question
Alderman SALOMONS said that he would vote for the of finance ought not to be left out of sight, and urgent in-
stru.ctions had been sent out to effect a reduction in the ac-
bill, and he considered the oaths in question as a useless
ceremony ; and in making that statement he distinctly die- tual amount of natiye force which was larger in amount
avowed any intention of injuring the State Establishment, than when the mutiny broke out. (Hear.) Those instruc-
which he considered could not suffer in the slightest de- lions were not sent out in consequence of any preconceived
plan. During the mutiny they were obliged to employ sol-
g-ree from the proposed abolition. there wherever they could find them, but he had reason
After some conversation the house divided— to believe that a considerable reduction was now taking
For the second reading... l3O place in the number of Sikhs and other native troops.
Against it
With regard to the expense, he ought to say that one
Majority
European. soldier was calculated to cost more than three
The bill was then read a second time.
The house adjourned at half-past three o'clock till six native soldiers. The house would not expect him to enter
further into the question which had been raised by the hon.
o'clock. gentleman. (Hear, hear.)
Sir E. PERRY said the present force in India con-
sisted of 111,000 Europeans and 280,000 natives, being a
force little short of 400,000 men. His opinion was, that
theresources of India could not support such a force,
and that the resources of England could not supply it.
In the present state of the finances of India, instead of aug-
menting the force their course ought to be to bring it
wna,.1.... ---i...4.1............4..,.....,,aa i,....- TTn.r was that to be
done ? By adopting such a course of policy as would engage
the sympathies of the people of India on their side. _ His im-
pression, after an experience of eleven or twelve years' resi-
dence in India, was that their system of government could
never succeed as long as it excluded so religiously, from places
of honour and profit the natives of India. (Hear, hear.)
They gave to the rank and file of the native army more than
double the pay of the Indian labourer, and provided for them
excellent pensions, whilst they excluded every gentleman of
rank and education. (Hear, bear.) Yet in those corps to
which they admitted native gentlemen, there was greater
efficiency combined with far greater cheapness. Native
cavalry, drilled and disciplined after the European model,
cost £lO2 per man. Native irregular regiments of cavalry
cost only £35. Now, he said boldly, the native irregular
cavalry were far more efficient than the highly-drilled and
tight-laced regulars. Lieutenant Merreweather, General
Jacob's force, and the ten regiments raised by Sir J. Law-
rence in the Punjaub proved that this was the fact. Other
countries did not refuse to employ as officers the natives of
conquered countries. He trusted the right hon. baronet
would follow that course with regard to the army which he
had indicated in reference to the civil service when in office
before, and give a fair field to the legitimate ambition of the
native gentlemen. (Hear, hear.)
Col. SYKES said that the noble lord the late Secretary
for India had declared himself at a loss for any basis on which
to form an opinion as to the amount at which the force in
India ought to be maintained.. If the noble lord wanted a
basis for an opinion he need only refer to the traditional
policy of the East India Company, and he would find what
the amount of force ought to be. The year before the
Affghan war broke out there were in India 16,040 infantry
and 3,711 cavalry of the royal army, a total of less than
20,000; the force was afterwards raised to 25,000 infantry
and somewhere under 4,000 cavalry, still a total of less than
30,000. The Company's Europeans varied from 15,000 to
25,000, averaging about 20,000 ; so that the Affghan war
was commenced and carried on with less than 50,000 Euro-
peans in India. In 1857, when the mutiny broke out, there
were 2.5,098 infantry and 2,955 cavalry, a total of less than
' 30,000 of the royal army, and only 20,000 Company's Euro-
peans in India, yet that force crushed the mutiny, and took
Delhi, Cawnpore, and Lucknow before a single company
arrived to their assistance. If 50,000 Europeans were
enough to carry on the Affghan war and crush the mutiny,
surely such a force was sufficient now, when there was not
a single fortress standing that could hold out against
half a-dozen' battalions of any native prince with an
army on foot. There were now, it appeared, 110,000
European troops in India and 21,000 at the depots here,
chargeable on the Indian Government. Was the mainte-
nance of such a force reasonable or just to India or to this
country ? He did not hesitate to say that India could not
support more than 50,000 ; any increase above that amount
would produce a corresponding deficiency in the revenue.
Mr. SMOLLETT considered that the amount of force
required in India would depend entirely on the course
taken by the India Government itself.
Mr. BRIGHT would not detain the house many minutes.
The debate was rather irregular, but it was one of the most
important that they had had for a long. time. They were
much indebted to the hon. member who introduced the sub-
ject and to the hon. member for Devonport, for the manner
in which they had addressed them. (Hear, hear.) He
feared the right hon. baronet would think him pertinacious
in pressing him on this matter, but the debate that
evening must have shown him there was only one feeling in
and outside the house. He thought Parliamentary Re-
form was important ' • he thought the home budget
was important ; but he did not know that either of them
could match in pressing and immediate importance with
the subject which had that evening been introduced to their
notice. (Hear.) For his own part, he never turned his
attention to the affairs ofrlndia without sorrow and alarm.
He begged to ask the right hon. baronet when he would
bring the subject of Indian finance before the house. It was
an unpleasant subject for a Minister, but the hon. baronet
would lest consult his own future renown and best consult
the interest of England and of India by inviting the House
of Commons in the most frank manner to the fullest confi-
dence in all respects as to the difficult and almost insolvable
problem with which he had to deal. The noble lord who
had preceded him in office must well know that none of the
offices filled by his colleagues could compare in difficulty
with that which he had occupied for some' twelve
months. They all knew the intelligence he possessed,
the industry he displayed, and the absence of pre-
judice which characterised him—(hear, hear)—but they
must admit he had met with difficulties which he
Could not entirely overcome. (Hear.) He warned the
right hon. baronet not as a political opponent, but as a poli-
tical friend, to ask the opinion and the judgment of the
House of Commons on the important subject with which he
had to deal. He hoped the right hon baronet would not
consider he pressed this matter from any desire to worry
him (hear, hear) ; he was only anxious that while so many
members were in town, and while there appeared such a
disposition to consider the subject, they might have an
opportunity of giving the Government the Isynefit of all the
faculties they possessed. (Hear, hear.
Sir C. WOOD did not blame the on. gentleman for
pressing him. He knew the interest he took in the affairs
of India. He could assure him he was perfectly reedy
to take his advice, and to deal frankly with the house ;
it was only from his desire to do so that he had so
long postponed making his statement. He did not Nish
e it untillt
on
nwt the
ddhi
aonbu se
fie
easyn awc sfee,rwhich inh i possessionin
tho oun.make
el
members
ebfil
s_l
information.cthi s en ak
statement
could not controvert for want of information, but he had
postponed his statement until the house was in possession of
all the information he could place before them on Indian
finance. He had laid on the table all the financial despatches
he had received ; the only document he was waiting for was
the last annual return of expenditure and revenue. That
would be laid on the table on Thursday, and as soon as it was
presented he would lose no time in making his statement.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the question immediately be-
fore the house he did not think it advisable then to enter into
it, as he would have occasion hereafter to king before them
the great question of the Indian army, and he would be able
to do so more effectually when he was in a position to state
what the views of the Government were on the subject.
The subject was intimately connsetsd with the question of

The house resumed at six o'clock.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
CRUELTIES TO SEAMEN: MT. M. MILNES, On Tuesday,
the 2d of August, to move an humble address to her
Majesty, praying her Majesty to enter into negotiations
with the Government of the 1J nited States, for the purpose
of pre v cuilus the gz am, ca-cLaVie. ...why...roll cant
seamen engaged in the traffic between this country and the
United States, and for bringing the offenders to justice.
THE PEACE.—Mr. B. COCHRANE, on Friday, on going
into committee of supply, to ask Lord J. Russell whether
he will lay on the table of the house the despatches which
hair') passed between himself and Lord Cowley and Sir
James Hudson, since the conclusion of the peace between
France and Austria.
DEVONPORT DOCKYARD.--Captain L. VERNON, On
Thursday, the 28th, to move for some returns relating to
vacancies in Devonport Dockyard since December last, the
dates when they had been filled up, and copies of all corre-
spondence with the surveyor to the navy.
NATIONAL DEFENCES.—Mr. HORSMAN, On going into
committee of supply, to move a resolution to the effect, that
the expense of all works required for the national defence
should be met by a fund specially provided for the purpose,
and independent of the ordinary revenue of the country.
WEST YORKSHIRE ASSIZES.
Mr. W. LEATHAM asked whether the judges had re-
ported on the West Riding Assizes question, and whether
the report would be laid before the house ?
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that he had not received any re-
port on the subject; but from a document which he found
in the Home-office it appeared that the judges had conveyed
to his predecessor their opinion in regard to the expediency
of holding assizes for the West Riding ; and they agreed in.
the unanimous opinion of the commissioners appointed by
her Majesty that it would not be expedient, with a view to
the administration of justice, to hold assizes in the West
Riding.
COMMISSIONERS FOR TAKING AFFIDAVITS
IN ,THE CITY.
In reply to Sir J. DUKE, whether commissioners had
been appointed in the City for this pose,
Sir G. C. LEWIS promised to make inquiry and gave
an answer in a day or two.
RE-ORGANISATION OF THE INDIAN ARMY.—
THE INDIAN FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
Mr. H. BAILLIE asked whether it was the intention of
the Government to give the house an opportunity of ex-
pressing its opinion upon the re-organisation of the Indian
army, or whether they proposed to settle the question with-
out reference to Parliament.
Sir C. WOOD said that possibly it might be necessary to
bring in a bill for the purpose, in which case, of course, it
would be his duty to explain what was proposed to be done.
If not, he should take some opportunity of making a state-
ment as to what course the Government intended to take.
Mr. BRIGHT said he had not correctly caught the right
hon. baronet's answer. Did he mean to say that he would
fix a day for bringing the subject of Indian finance before
the house ?
Sir C. WOOD—I have answered the question of the right
hon. gentleman opposite, whether I would give the house
an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the state of the
Indian army.
Mr. BRIGHT—Then I beg to ask the right hon. baro-
net whether he can fix a day when the whole subject of
India can be brought before the house, in the statement
which the Indian Government is expected annually to make?
Sir C. WOOD, who spoke with his back to the gallery,
and was very indistinctly heard, was understood to say that
it was not in his power to fix a day. The annual accounts
were not yet made up, and any statement which he could
make without them would be most unsatisfactory. As soon
as the accounts were ready they would be laid before the
house.
Mr. BRIGHT—The right hon. gentleman proposes to
give papers; but surely all the facts which they contain
could be embraced in his own speech. Will the right hon.
gentleman say when the papers will be before the house ?
Considering the time of the session, I think I am entitled to
ask that question. Tear, hear.)
Sir C. WOOD said that the completion of the accounts
did not at all depend upon him, or the home Government.
He had not the slightest disposition to postpone the state-
ment which he was expected to make. That statement
would not be a very agreeable one, but it would be more
satisfactorily made when he was in full possession of all the
requisite information.
Mr. BRIGHT—I beg to give notice that I shall repeat
my question to the right hon. baronet on Thursday evening.
MILITIA PRACTICE.
Mr. H. BERKELEY put the following question to the
Secretary for War :—" Whether it be true that the Wor-
cestershire Militia had been called out four times, had been
embodied twice, and stationed at the two principal training
camps, Aldershott and the Curragh ; that during the whole
of that time the men have never had a ball cartridge served
out to them, and have the old musket to
the carry North about ;
Glou-
whether this is equally true as regards
caster and other militia regiments ?"
Mr. S. HERBERT said it was true that the Worcester-
shire militia had been twice out in training, in 1853 and in
1859 ; and they had also been twice embodied, from Nove-
mber, 1854, to June, 1856, and from November, 1857, to May,
1858. They had been at Aldershott, and also at the Cur-
ragh. He found that 6,000 rounds of ball cartridge had
been served out for practice. He, as Secretary for War,
gave no orders as to the practice of any particular regiment.
All he had to do was to honour the orders that were sent
for material. It was quite true that at the time referred to
the militia had not got the Enfield rifles ,• but now they had
them, and he hoped that all the embodied militia would
have them soon. The military authorities, the colonels com-
manding the regiments, and the generals inspecting where
the militia regiments were quartered, were the persons to
decide on the nature of the drill to which they should be
subjected, and how far it should be carried.
Mr. THE ENFIELD RIFLE.
• VIVIAN asked whether the Enfield rifle alluded
ito n the War-office circular of the 13th inst. was the short
rifle furnished to the Rifle Brigade, or the long rifle used in
Mr. S. HERBERTth
the line ?
was the one referred
ttohreephiao
period they should be ableu:,
was 2. understood to say that the latter
hoped
dthem
that
allat some future
rifles.fushtureort
Mr. VIVIAN said it was d • esi
known, that the volunteer rifle desirable that this should be
own weapons should provide corps now providing their
THE PEACE. •
Mr. HORSMAN gave notice that on Friday he should
repeat his question as to whether any communication had