The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-29 00:00:00

nor the Howe of Commons would be bound by any terms
that they did not approve of in the congress. Who knew-3
at least he did not know—that Austria was a finally consent-;
ing or dissenting party to a congress ? Who could even sayj
that Austria had aszed for a congress? He did not dispute
the temporal power of the Pope ; but he protested against
the doctrine that this was a religious question. (Hear, hear.)
It was not a religious question, but it was a great social ques-
tion. And was it to be said that England, who assisted in
reinstating the Pope in his dominions in former years, was:
not now to interfere in this question. (Hear, hear.) His:
right hon. friend (Mr. Disraeli) said there were but two
parties in Italy, and he had twitted her Majesty's Govern-'
went with introducing their " Whig" notions into the of--j
fairs of Italy—(laughter)—but he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) supposed that his righthon. friend apprehended
that the Whigs were disposed to give them some share of
constitutional freedom. (Laughter.) It was not true that
there were but two parties in Italy. There were other par-,
ties there. He would not cast ridicule and scorn upon any
party who were prepared to rally for the freedom of Italy. ;
It was not right to indiCate to the friends of moderate opi-
nions in Italy that they were to be abandoned by the
Powers of Europe, and that the Italians were to be crushed
between the Powers of absolutism on the one hand and the
revolutionary party on the other. (Cheers.) The member
for the University of Dublin and the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Disraeli) had differed as to the manner in which
the provisions of the treaties were to be carrried out.
The former said "Do not touch the treaties." The latter,
while denouncing the congress in terms equally strong,
took a different view of the treaties, and observed that it
was by gross mismanagement on the part of the Govern-
ment that they had missed and failed. He said, "If you
had been clever enough, or if we had been in your place, we
would have settled everything satisfactorily. (Laughter.)
The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) said, " Why did
you not endeavour to get credit for obtaining large and
liberal terms for Italy ?" On that point he (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) was bound to say that the Government
were not anxious to compete with the right hon. gentle-
man. If he wished to obtain that credit, it would be a dip-
lomatic mission on which they would have no reason what-
soever to congratulate themselves. (Laughter.) He (Mr.
Gladstone) entertained the strongest conviction that the
House of Commons would not interpose between the execu-
tive Government—(cheers)—by calling on them to accept
any declaration whatever which should preclude the exer-
cise of its discretion in regard to the measures that might
be most prudent for them to adopt in giving to the peace
that form which should be most favourable and less dan-
gerous to the future fortunes and permanent tranquillity of
Italy. (Cheers.)
Mr. MAGUIRE said the Government of the Pope in
1847 would have worked well had it not been for Mazzini
and the revolutionary party. During the last few*years
the Pope had been fully occupied in making material re-
forms, and he made• that assertion with all the responsi-
bility of a member of Parliament. The Pope had taken
up £7,000,000 of bad money which had been bequeathed
him by the revolutionary party, and had now established
in his States one of the best currencies to be found in
Europe. The revolutionary party had been convicted of
the grossest atrocities on the evidence of Englishmen, and
that was the party which the noble lords opposite were
too ready to support on all occasions. It had been said
that the prisons of the Papal States were filled with poli-
tical prisoners ; but that he quite denied, for in October
last there were only seventy-two such prisoners. But be-
sides all this, the manufactures of the States were improv-
ing, and recently—and he heartily wished the right hon.
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer could say the
same—after paying off all debts, there was a balance in
the exchequer. It was a small one, and the first there had
been for a period of 30 years, for the heads of the Whig
party were always too ready to lend assistance to the revo-
lutionary party, and then everything retrograded. As re-
garded education, he could assert ithat there were now in
Rome 23,000 pupils receiving a free education, and that
3,000 other pupils were taught at night schools. Nothing,
in fact, could exceed the zeal of the Holy Father in effect-
ing social reforms. But let the Government guard against
farther meddling in these affairs, which only made matters
worse abroad, and had already damaged, irretrievably,their,
own reputation as statesmen ; for, throughout Italy, the
name of the noble lord the member for London was detested,
and that of the noble lord the member for Tiverton ab-
horred.
After a few words from Mr. P. URQUHART,
Lord C. HAMILTON contended that the charge made
against the noble lord the member for Tiverton was, that
he did not in May, 1848, accept the terms from Austria in
f ,vour of Lombardy, which were far better than those now
granted by Austria in respect to that country. That was
the charge made by his right hon. and learned friend (Mr.
Whiteside) against the noble lord the member for Tiverton,
and it had not been answered by his right hon. friend (Mr.
Gladstone.) Now, what were the facts ? Why, that on the
23d May, 1848, Austria proposed that Lombardy should be
separated from Austria. with a condition that she should
. .

either be an independent kingdom, or joined to Sardinia
upon her paying a fair prbportion of the debt for which she
was liable to Austria. The noble lord, the member for
Tiverton, on the 12th June, 1848, and on the 17th of June,
and even down to July, refused to accede to the terms, and
would hear of nothing, unless Venetia was also made a
separate kingdom. But, when Marshal Radetzky menaced
Sardinia, and sustained the power of Austria against that
country, the noble lord , on the 7th of August, 1848, wrote
to Lord Normanby, and said that her Majesty's Govern-
ment, wishing to put an end to the state of things which
existed in the North of Italy, would accede to the terms
proposed by Baron Hummelauer, in May, in reference to
Lombardy. But, Austria being successful, paid no atten-
tion to the despatch of the noble lord. These facts ap-
peared in the blue books which treated upon the question.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the noble lord who had just ad-
dressed the house seemed to think that what he had just
read diminished the force of the statement made by his right
hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone), in reference to the, question
under consideration. But the fact was, that what his right
hon. friend stilted remained just in the same position in
which it was. (Hear, and a laugh.) The proposition of
the Austrian Government was stated on the 23d of May in
the proposition of Baron Hummelauer, and at a subsequent
date, according to the documents to which the noble lord
had referred, his (Lord J. Russell's) noble friend (Loth'
Palmerston) referred to the memorandum of the 23d of May.
That was in perfect consistency with what had been stated
by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The noble lord seems to hav,e forgotten that the first ques-
tion is, whether the proposition is that of the Austrian Go-
vernment, or one which Baron Hummelauer had taken upon
himself to propose. In reply to the hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Dundalk, his lordship stated that, so far from Lord
Minto having endeavoured to inflame the passions of the ex-
treme revolutionary party in Italy, with the view of over-
coming the constitutional party, his efforts were directed to
exactly the opposite object, and the effect of his endeavours
was precisely the reverse of that which the hon. gentleman
had stated. Lord Minto's mission was to prevent revolu-
tion—to induce the Government to make wholesome re-
forms—to induce the leaders of the Liberal party to be
satisfied with such reforms as could be made, and to re-
strain those parties who were bearing on to revolution. In
that mission Lord Minto would have succeeded but for the
Revolution of February, 1848, which broke out in France,
and gave the republicans throughout Europe an impulse
and a strength •of which it was impossible for Italy to
escape the influence. Lord Minto did not even counsel the
establishment of a representative assembly in Rome, as he
thought it might not be conducted with moderation. The
person who introduced representative assemblies, and
granted a constitution, was the King of Naples. (Hear.)
He did not know how it happened that the hon. gentleman
had two political creeds. Yet he set down the proposer
of any reform in Italy as a friend of anarchy, as if no
reform was consistent with moderation. If the Italian Go-
vernments were so excellent, why was it necessary that
there should always be a French garrison at Rome and an
Austrian force at Bologna ? (Hear.) It certainly seemed
strange that so good a Government could not carry out its
,paternal designs for the benefit of its subjects without hav-
ing foreign troops to force it down the throats of the people.
(Hear.) If the hon. gentleman were a Tory he could un-
derstand his taking such a position, but when the hon. gen-
tleman spoke on domestic affairs he said nothing about re-
presentative assemblies producing revolution. (Hear.)
Mr. MAGUIRE—I never said anything of the kind,
neither do I believe it. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the hon. gentleman must be
aware that these foreign troops in Italy had been used for
the purpose, not of supporting, but of preventing represen-
tative institutions, which the people desired. (Hear.) Now
the people were forming governments themselves, and mak-
ing elections by themselves, as they would have done ten
years ago had they not been prevented by French and Aus-
trian troops. (Hear.) The hon. and learned gentlemen
the late Attorney General said that if his (Lord T. Russell's)
advice should be taken it would renew the war. But he
(Lord J. Russell) thought the people of Italy ought to be
allowed to form governments for themselves. He was quite
willing to let them do so without giving them any advice.
(Hear.) They might fall into some errors, and there might,
and probably would be, popular outbreaks, but if the people
of Italy were left to themselves, in no very long time they
would form sound popular institutions, and order would be
as well kept 'as in any other country in Europe. That
was his (Lora J. Russell's) opinion. He did not want to
advise those Governments, but when other foreign Govern-
ments did interfere--when they told them that the removal
of the foreign troops would be the signal for a massacre—
he said that when such advice was given them on the one
hand, than ho was prepared to advise them on the other.
(Cheers.) He thought that a renewal of the war would be
much more likely to result from the return than from the
withdrawal of the foreign troops. (Hear.) The Italians
were better able to form their own governments than
England, France, or Austria were able to form them for
them. At Bologna there had been a revolution, the foreign
troops had been withdrawn, the Papal Government had
been overthrown, and yet be had not heard of any attack
upon either life or property, (Cheers.) At Florence, the
Grand Duke went away, abdicating his functions, but
what disorder, or pillage, or massacre had taken place ?
(Hear, hear.) In Sardinia the King had fostered free in-
stitutions, liberty of worship, and liberty of the Press, and
he believed that the other countries of Italy, if left to
themselves, would establish similar institutions, and then
there would be an end of these wars on their behalf.
(Cheers.)
After a few words from Lord LOVAINE,
Mr.' A. KINNAIRD, in reply to the member for Dun-
dalk, who had accused him of being the representative of
Exeter Hall principles, said that he was not afraid to ad-
vocate in that house the principles which he advocated
elsewhere, and the hon. gentleman, instead of finding
fault with him for it, ought to respect him all the more for
his openness. (Cheers.) He always advocated his opinions
openly and honestly, and he hoped in a friendly spirit.
(Cheers.)
The subject then dropped,
PUBLIC BUSINESS.

Mr. DISRAELI said it would be for the convenience of
the house if the Government would state the probable
course of public business. It was understood that on
Monday the subject referred to in the course of the unex-
pected debate to-night would again be brought forward,
while the Indian budget was fixed for the same evening.
Now, the house would like to know what business would
really be proceeded with. He did not think the subject of
this evening had been sufficiently discussed (hear) • and it
would be well if the opinion of the house could 'be pro-
nounced upon it ; in which case delay was very much to be
deprecated. (Hear.) •
Lord PALMERSTON could not, of course, answer for
his noble friend (Lord Elcho), who was not now in his
place, but the Government proposed to take the Income-
tax Bill in committee to-morrow (this day), and the Secre-
tary of State for India hoped that the noble lord would not
stand in his way on Monday. (" Oh 1") It was very im-
portant that the Indian financial statement should be made
at once. (Hear, hear.)
Mr, DISRAELI was afraid that he had not made his
meaning sufficiently clear. He thought he did not misin-
terpret the opinion of the house when he said that a dis-
cussion ought to take place on the motion of the noble lord
(Elcho). Now, if there was to be a discAsion on that
question, it would be convenient that it should take place
on Monday ; but then there ought to be a distinct under-
standing. The house ought not to be left in doubt whe-