The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JMN 14, 1835.

the Roman Catholic chapels, and which received grants.- from
the Commissioners. In one of these schools there were 146
Catholics and no Protestants, yet this was called a general
system of education. In another there were about 3:)0 Catho-
lics and not one Protestant, and there was no scriptu -c ederca-
tion; but tile teacher was in the act of reading a lecture upon
the acts of faith, hor • and charity

, Ape, . .
Lord MORPETH hoped that Mr. Daly .would send his
complaints to the Government, and they should certainly be
forwarded to the Board of C•om►nnSioncrs. fie did not think
when there were no children in a school but Catholic.chil-
drea, that it could be considered altogether a grievance if they
were instructed i❑ the Catholic faith—(Hear, hear), notwith-
standing the enormity of giving a lecture on the acts of faith,
hope, and charity.
Mr. PLUM rr RE then said, that as there appeared to be
sense misunderstanding as to the meaning of what he had pre-
..ionslv said, he begged leave to read a statement sent to him
by a Graham, in regard to a visit paid by that gentleman
to the school (we believe of Erker). This gentleman stated
that on inquiry he found that the school had been established
in I 527, that the visitors were the friars of the convent, and
that there was an altar at which mass was read every morning
and evening.—( A laugh.) On asking if Protestant children
were required to attend mass, the answer was, " Yes, they
must attend." It was also stated that the school was daily
opened and closed with mass—( A laugh)—and that the per-
' sons who officiated were friars from the convent. It was also
said that the Protestant children who were assiduous in at-
tending mass, received a new suit of clothes annually. The
question was, whether Protestants should be called upon to
support a system, which he, in common with many others,
considered bad, in as far as it excluded the Scriptures, which
was one among the many other means employed to rivet the
chains of darkness. •

Mr. G. F. YOUNG had heard with surprise the speeches
of the two Gentlemen who had last spoken. From what be
considered ill-considered premises, those Gentlemen had en-
deavoured- to support opinions which he had long considered
as being one of the chief causes of the evils of Ireland.—
( Hear.) He bad visited Ireland a few months ago for the
first time. He had considered it his duty to pay a visit to the
central establishment at Dublin, and made himself master of
the system followed at that establishment. Speaking as a
member of the Church of England, and as one deeply ren-
sible of the calls which the Church of England had upon
him, he would say that having taken away and perused copies
of the books used in that establishment, his conscientious con-
viction was, that if the principle were once admitted that no
sect ought to force their own doctrines upon those who did
not believe in them, but merely ought to content themselves
with teaching those doctrines in which both Protestants and
Catholics agreed—if that principle were once admitted, he
would say that no system could be proposed more likely to
have that effect. His firm opinion was, that the course fol-
lowed by the Commissioners had the greatest prospect of suc-
cess upon the morals of the mass of the population in Ireland.
Mr. BODKIN said that the school of Ekmar was princi-
pally supported by Mr. James Daly, the brother of the re-
doubted hero who came over to fight the battle of Protestant-
ism at Exeter Hall. If the Hon. Member had made inquiry
before he had made the statement he had just given utterance
to, he would not have done so. [The Hon. Gentleman ex-
cited much laughter by concluding with saying, " Gentlemen,
I thank you f r the attention you have paid to me."]
Mr. JAMES GRATTAN regretted the tone that had pre-
vailed throughout the debate. He thought the funds not now
voted were utterly insufficient ; they should have a large sur-
plus applied for the object. The establishment should be on
a more extensive scale than it now was. He hoped also that
a more correct statement would be made out with respect to

these schools next year, so that there could be no doubt as to
the truth of the statements made.
Mr. NYSE said that they had been told that the Bible-had
been excluded from the new schools, but the charge now was
a want of Christian charity in adopting a system to prevent
Roman Catholic and Protestant children from being edu-
cated together. The truth was, that from the conduct Ho-
nourable Gentlemen pursued they seemed anxious to divide
Ireland into two sects, entertaining the most rancorous feel-
ingi the one towards the other. Except in doctrinal points
there was but little difference between the Catholic and Epis-
copal Church of England, but it would appear from the
tone of the discussion, that Hon. Gentlemen wished to
carry the differences which existed into every act of social
life. He would not charge the individuals whose authority
had been so repeatedly referred to this night in support of
the statement made, but he would say that they laboured
under the grossest errors and ignorance. He trusted that the
present system of education would be extended throughout
the country.
Mr. W. ROCHE denied the existence of partiality in the
schools.

Mr. FINCH observed that the Hon. Member for Tyne-
mouth appeared to have made rather an extraordinary state-
ment, when he said that though he had been but a very short
time in Ireland he had made himself master of all the details
of the system of education there pursued. The Hon. Member
said that be had perused all the works introduced into the
schools. He had in his hand a pamphlet, which, in his opi-
nion, contained most objectionable observations. In one
version of the scriptures the expression was used " it shall
crush the serpent's head," but in the Roman Catholic version
it is rendered " she shall crush the serpent's head." Although
there might be apparently little difference in the sense of
these, still a most important distinction was drawn. The '
words used in the note to the passage' are, " Oh I Holy
Blessed Virgin Miry, you were promised from the beginning
of the world that by your seed you should crush the serpent's
head." Now he thought that this was one of the most ob-
jectionable
expressions that could be introduced into a work
for the education of both Catholics and Protestants.—( Hear. )
He denied that the Bible had been excluded from any of the
Kildare-street schools.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG, in explanation, said that it appeared
to him that the Hon. Gentleman seemed to have taken a les-
son from the polemical disputants who had recently figured in
Exeter Hall.—( Hear, hear,. and laughter.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman had just referred to a passage to be met with in one of
the books used in the schools, which did not appear to him
(Mr. Young) to be so objectionable as the Hon. Gentleman
appeared to imagine it to be. It had not been insidiously in-
troduced, however, by a Catholic, but by a zealous ProteStant
of the Establishment, and as sound a scholar as was to be
found in the empire, who contended that it was the correct
translation of the text, and who challenged any person to dis •
pute it with him.—( Cries of " Name, name.") He could not
do so, as it might appear invidious ; but he was prepared to
maintain the position he had taken.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to make one observation, with
reference to what had been said by the Noble Lord, the Mem-
ber for Liverpool, of Mr. Inglis's book. The Noble Lord
had referred to it as a book of authosity. Now, although he
(Mr. O'Connell) was prepared to admit that there was a great
deal of truth in it, he must say that there were many mistakes
in it—ay, and wilful mistakes. By being quoted in the man-
ner in which it had been, an authority had been given to it
which it did not deserve. He was sorry that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Kent had referred to the authority which he had quoted,
as to mass being said in these schools. He could not charge
the Hon. Member for an English county with uttering a false-
hood ; indeed, he knew that be was incapable of so doing—
.but still he exhibited an instance of the grossest ignorance. He
should be cautious before he was inclined to give currency to
such silly calumnies, which, indeed, would appear so, if they
were not so utterly ridiculous. He trusted that, on a future
occasion, this subject would be discussed 'al a different tone
and feeling from that exhibited on the present.
Mr. HARDY denied that the eharge of bigotry could
fairly be brought against those who opposed the present
grant. He had ever been favourable to Catholic Emancipa-
tion and to the equality of civil eights for members of every re-
ligious creed ; but it was a very different thing for a man at-
tached to his religion, and who wished to be saved by it, to
see his children brought up in a religion which he did not
approve.
Mr. PLUMPT RE denied that this was a party question,
or that he bad ever been opposed to a system of education
under which children of all religious creeds could be brought
up. He had, however, a very strong feeling as to the course
now pursued, and should feel it his duty to divide the House on
the subject.—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide.")
Mr. D. JACKSON protested against the present system
being called a system of united education of different sects. It
was introduced to supersede another system which could be
more fairly designated by that name. He denied that a
broader basis for general education could be laid down than
that acted upon by the Kildare-street Society. At the time
at which the Commissioners of Inquiry made their Report
there was a greater number of Catholics than Protestants in the
schools of that Society; what, however, were the number of
Protestant children in the new schools ? The truth was,
that Protestant parents could not avail themselves of them—
were afraid to send their children to them. hi one of the
New Board schools which he had visited, he found that the
whole of the children were paraded in the Roman Catholic
chapel, and that there was not a single copy of the Holy Scrip-
tuies, or even a selection from it, in the school, but that Dr.
Hunter's Roman Catholic Catechism was used for all the
children. The master of the school told him that they had
not a single copy of the New Testament.- This, then, Was
the system which was to impart education to Catholics and
Protestants indiscriminately.
Mr. SI-I Ell, rose amidst loud cries of " Question." He
begged to observe that the date of the estimate was the Bth of
April, that being a time when the Government allowed great
discrimination in selecting and promoting learned individuals
of the Irish bar, and amongst ethers his Hon. and Learned
Friend, who had shown so much talent on this occasion. —( A
laugh.) On a former occasion, however, his Hon. and Learned
Friend showed a high talent of a different kind: as the
Frenchman said, Il a le grand talent pour le silence.
• ( Laughter.) Mum was then the word.—(Cheers and
laughter.) The then Secretary for Ireland made no amend-
ment in the Estimate; it was proposed in the presence of
many pious persons who sat beside him—his Hon. and Learned
Friend was one ; another was the Learned Recorder of Dub-
lin, his good friend Banquo, whom he saw not in his place—
" Would he were here," and not a single scruple occurred to
any of them.—( Much cheering and laughter.) There was his
answer to all that had been said by his Hon. and Learned
Friend—it was the estimate, and the name of " T. F. Fre-
mantle" was at the end of it.—(Renewed laughter,)
Mr. JACKSON was aware of the fact to which his Hon.
and Learned Friend adverted, and he would tell him this in
perfect good humour, that if a vote for 35,0001. had been pro-
posed by the late Prime Minister of the Crown, or the late
Secretary for Ireland, he should have risen in his place and
mane the same statement then that he had this evening.—
(Cries of " Oh I" and a laugh.) And he begged to tell the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman why he did not rise in his place
on that occasion. It was but a short time he had bad the ho-
nour of being in the House, and he was little acquainted with
the mode of inoceedirq 7.:41; business, and little aware when
it became a Member to rise.-
receding. Governmenthad

continued the grant on the principle that they found it work-
ing, and they did not think it right to suppress it, but rather
to allow it to go on for a year. It was the preceding thsvern-
ment to Sir Robert Peel's that made a grant on the principle
that it was right to give a year's notice, and he did think it but
fair to do so, because new buildings had actually been com-
menced on the faith of the new grant.
The motion was then agreed to.
The following votes were also agreed to :-
200/. for the Marine Society, Dublin.
1,0001. for the Female Orphan School.
2,5001. for the Lock Hospital.
1,000/. for the Lying in Hospital.
300/. for Stephen's Hospital.
3,8001. for the Fever Hospital.
500/, for the Hospital of Incurables.
On the motion that 8,9281. be granted for• the Roman Ca-
tholic College in Ireland,
Mr. SINCLAIR made some remark that was inaudible, but
in reply to which,
Lord MORPETH said he could not consent to refuse to
set apart so small a sum for the religious education of so
large a number of the people.
Mr. WARBURTON urged the extension of the principle
of general instruction sanctioned by the Government.
Mr. LE FROY objected to the grant, on the ground that
it was inconsistent with the established religion of another
profession.
Mr. O'CONNELL was quite disposed to extend the prin-
ciple of toleration. The Hon. Member was perfectly wel-
come to indulge in his conscientious scruples, if he would but
allow the same to others. There was an old saying, that
" that what was good for the goose was good for the gander."
The Protestants of Belgium were of a more liberal spirit than
were those of this country. Out of four Protestant Bishops,
three had voted for the building of a new church.
Mr. FINCH, in a few scarcely audible observations, ob-
jected to the vote, and suggested that either the grant of
8,500/. should not be made to Maynooth College, or that
twice that amount (17,000/.) should be given for Roman Ca-
tholic charities.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the Hon. Gentleman had
charged the Roman• Catholics with duplicity. No man could
make that charge of duplicity against others, but one who
judged from himself ; and he (Mr. O'Connell) repudiated the
foul and false charge.—(Cries of " Order.") What ! (con-
tinued the Hon. and Learned Member) is such a charge to
be made, and are we to be prohibited from noticing it ?
Oh, no ; it may do at Exeter Hall --(Loud cheers.)—but it
will not do here. There is no policeman here to put down
those who attempt to defend themselves. I repeat, therefore,
that I return the slander to the foul source from which it came.
Sir INGLIS said that the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
nian had quite misunderstood his Hon. Friend. He was
sure that his Hon. Friend had said nothing bearing the
construction which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
put upon his words.
Mr. FINCH explained.
After a few words from Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Wyse, and
Mr. Lefroy, the vote was agreed to without a division.
The House then resumed.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave
to sit again: T

-CUSTOMS' ACTS (TEA DUTIES.)
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the House went into Committee on these Acts, when
the Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to state the course
which it was intended by the Government to pursue on this
subject. After acknowledging the considerate manner in
which the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth,
had abstained from pressing his question as to the intention of
the Government, when he learned that the Government had
not come to any definitive resolution, he said that all who
were at all familiar with the subject, knew, that prior to the
alienation of the East India Company's Charter, the duties on
tea were regulated by an ad valorem scale, arranged according
to the auction duties. It was perfectly obvious, however, that
so soon as the opening of the trade with China had been ef-
fected, the ad valorem scale could no longer be continued. It
became necessary, therefore, to revert to some other system of
duties. The object was to try if it were practicable, without
inconvenience to the trade, to lower the duty on the low-priced
teas. A Committee was appointed to investigate the subject—
( Heir, hear, hear.) Before that Committee a vast body
of evidence was brought, the tendency of which was to
prove that the idea of having a single• duty on tea of
every variety of value ought to be abandoned. But the
Committee did not come to a decision on the question
without much difficulty and doubt ; and, after all, what was
their recommendation? That the rates of duty which they
suggested should be considered experimental. A year had
since passed; and the question was, whether they should now
adhere to the rates of duty, or whether they should adopt two
of them, or whether they should confine themselves to one. He
would first state the conclusion to which his Majesty's Govern-
ment bad come, and he would then state the reasons on which
that conclusion was founded. They thought, then, that the
time had arrived when it would be expedient to apply to that
great branch of our trade the simple principle of a uniform
rate of duty. Did the present system answer the purpose for
which it was intended? Had it proved to be actually an ad
valorem duty ? If it did, he should be far from wishing
to abandon it. But on examining them, he could not find
. in the present rates of duty the elements which marked an
ad valorem duty. It was not an ad valorem duty ; it was
a discriminating duty. There were teas totally differing in
value coming under the same rate of duty. That was a
great inconvenience, but there were other evils more serious
still. The qualities of teas of different kinds, nevertheless,
sometimes approached so nearly as to occasion great difficul-
ties and disputes between the merchants and the officers of
the customs ; and to give the latter so tremendous a power
that without meaning to throw out the slightest imputation
against them (on the contrary, he was sure they had a just
claim to the praise of having discharged their duties most con-
scientiously), he must say that it ought not to exist. Persons
whose salaries were only two or three hundred pounds a year
had the power, on their own discretion and judgment, of vary-
ing the duty on a cargo of tea to an amount of more thousands
of pounds than they annually received hundreds. Another
evil was, that the present system prevented the extension of
the trade to outports, in consequence of the difficulty of fairly
levying the discriminating duties. These were among the
reasons which had induced his Majesty's Government to give
the preference to a uniform rate of duty. There were two
points to be considered; the first, what the amount of that
uniform duty should be ; the second, at what period the new
law should come into operation. He held in his hand
adocument to which he wished to. call the attention of the
COmmittee. It was a calculation of the produce of the dif-
ferent rates of duty on tea which had been collected since the
opening of the trade.—( Hear.) It appeared that from the
22d of April, 1834,11t0 the sth of April, 1835, the amount of
tea on which the duty of eighteen pence a pound had been
collected, was 5,300,000 lbs. ; that the amount of tea on
which the duty of 2s. 2d. a pound had been collected, was
22,000,000 lbs. ; and that the amount of tea on which the
duty of 3s. a pound had been collected, was 1,300,000 lbs.
The amount of revenue received was 3,021,0001. Now, if
the entire amount of tea had been rated at the highest rate of
duty, the revenue would have been 119,0001. more ; if it had
been rated at 2s. Id., the revenue would have been 14,9001.
less ; if it had been rated at 25., it would have been 122,200/.
less. He would now advert to the period at which the ope-
ration of the uniform rate of duty, might advantageously com-
mence. Nothing could be more unjust than to carry the pro-
posed alteration into immediate effect. Persons who had or-
• dered large quantities of bohea would have a good ground of
complaint, if they were compelled to gay 7d. or B.J. a pour.d
more duty than the rate established by law at the time they
gave their orders. In order, therefore, to give full and timely
notice to all parties, he intended to propose that the present
duties should continue in operation until the 2d of July,
1836. All who might import tea after that period would
have had abundant notice on the subject. After a brief re.
capitulation of the motives of the change, and of the advan-
tages _which might be expected to result from it, the Right
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving a resolution to the
effect " that the present rates of duty on tea shall cease and
determine on the 2d of July, 1836 ; and that in lieu thereof,
there be levied and paid on all teas imported for home con-
sumption a uniform duty of 2s. ld. per pound."
Mr. YOUNG asked whether the amount mentioned by the
Right Hon. Gentleman of 23,600,0001b5. of tea was the whole
amount brought to charge in one year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repeated
that it was the amount brought to charge from the 22d of
April, 1834, to the sth of April, 1835.
Mr. CR A WFO RD said that there was not a single point
in the speech just made by the Right Hou. Gentleman which
had not been urged upon the Committee last year, and which
oughttion n
\ovt (in
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ie, l
hie
Right
nizig distinctly
topinion)l t
io n o have . f
oGr
ee
foretold
dembyainfluencedlmadi‘h nowire.i rcd statederatel
vr
Crawford).
ori determina-
tion.
tlhfeefNaarcrt'a subject connected a ith fiscal arrangements had been
treated peculiarly in defiance of all acknowledged commercial
principles, it was the consideration last year of the duty on
tea. As to the practical result to be expected from the pro-
posed change, the Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of
28,600,000 lbs. of tea as having been the quantity brought to
charge from the 22d of April, 1834, to the sth of April, 1835.
Now the consumption of tea in 1833-1834 was 33,000,000 of
lbs., and he was perfectly satisfied that there was an increasing
consumption, and that the annual consumption now was
36,000,000 of lbs. If the object of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man was to obtain an increase of revenue from the duty on
tea, then he might be justified in proposing the uniform duty
of two shillings and a penny a pound ; but if his object were
merely to secure the same revenue as at present, he (Mr.
Crawford) was convinced that a uniform duty of two shillings
a pound would be enough. Further, he would say, that if the
duty on all teas but Bohea were immediately reduced to two
shillings and a penny por pound, and the duty on Bohea kept
at its present rate of eighteen-pence per pound, the increased
consumption of Bohea would be such as greatly to increase the
revenue.—(The Hon. Gentleman here entered into a variety
of calculations in proof of his statement.)
The CHANCELLOR
the whole year, ren ofetlire,
butEX theyCHE EXCHEQUER beggedjust
Rust
asgood
some words in reply. The figures which he had read did
n:e t co
his argument. With respect to the proposition
oto
ofod
i.the
Hon Member, it was elle which, on reflection, he (the Chant
cellos of the Exchequer) was sure the Hort. Member would
not persevere in recommending. The Hon. Member proposed
to suspend the operation of the proposed measure on the
lower descriptions of tea, but to carry into effect the reduc-
tion of the duty on the higher descriptions. Now in what
condition would that put the owners of large quantities of the
lower descriptions of tea, who had bought it when there was a
high duty on the higher descriptions ? It would drive them
out of the market.
Mr. HUME regretted that his Majesty's Government had
determined to abandon the ad valorem duty. It appeared to
him to be contrary to all principle to lay a duty of 300 per
cent, on cheap teas, and a duty of not 100 per cent. on others.

- _
If Government were determined on this measure, there was
o alternative, but he could l:ay.; wishel they had tried the
existing system foe another year.
Sir JOHN -RAE REID declared that Le had ❑ever enter-
tained a doubt but that the system which the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemaa now proposed was the system which ought to have been
adopted in the first instance. Large sums had been lost by
the course which had been taken ; but that 'circumstance
might, perhaps, ultimately do good.
- Mr. GOULBURii, while he allowed that it "did honour
to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that having discovered their
error they would not perszvere in it, could not help being
amused to bear the Right lion. Gentlemen use the same
arguments, and almost the same words, which had been used
last year by the opponents of the system then adopted. He
regretted that so long a time must elapse before the new pro-
position could come into active operation. As to the amount
of the new and uniform rate of duty, that was a point on
which he would not then trouble the Committee. He con-
fessed, however, that he doubted whether a duty of two shil-
lings per pound would not be productive of as large a revenue.
Mr. PEASE was in favour of the new arrangement.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG considered the principle of the pre-
sent arrangement unjust.'
Mr. WARBURTON thought that when the interest of
the consumer was taken into account, the rate of duty ought
to be diminished. _ _ _

After a few words from some other Hon. Members, the
resolution was agreed to.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS.

Mr. F. MAULS obtained leave to bring in a Bill to con-
solidate ,turnpike trusts. He merely wished to introduce the
Bill ; for it was not his intention to press its enactment in the
present session.