The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-08 00:00:00

exist, and to distinguish betwixt the number of "freemen"
in boroughs and of other electors.

SUPPLY.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
That part of the Speech from the Throne requesting sup-
ply having been read,
Sir S. NORTHCOTE moved that a supply be granted to
the Queen.
Lord J. RUSSELL "said the right hon. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer stated the other night that the
time at which the Reform Bill should be introduced—
(Ministerial cries of "Oh, oh")—depended upon two other
questions. One of those questions related to the naval esti-
mates. There could be no difficulty in calculating upon
what day the Government would be prepared to lay those
estimates upon the table, and the right hon. gentleman
could probably name upon what day they would ba brought
under the consideration of the house.

The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER—Sir, I
cannot name a day, but I will ask my right hon. friend to
take care that no time shall be lost. The course intended
to be taken by the. Government with reference to the bill as
to the representation had been communicated with perfect
frankness to the house, and I think that the question of the
noble lord must be taken to be answered by that state-
ment. (Hear.)

Lord J. RUSSELL—It was in consequence of that state-
ment that I put my question.
Tho motion was then agreed to.
OCCASIONAL FORMS OF PRAYER BILL,
Mr. WALPOLE, on moving the second reading of this
bill, said he had discovered that there was another day be-
sides those he had mentioned on Friday evening on which
particular forms of prayer were ordered to be used—
namely, the 23d of October, in order to commemorate the
day upon which the conspiracy during the siege of Dublin
was supposed to have been discovered—(laughter)—and he
had therefore thought it right to include that day in this
bill. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HADFIELD said the bill did not go far enough.
The Government ought, without further delay, to reform
the Book of Common Prayer, and put an end to those dif-
ferences on religious doctrine and discipline which caused
so much division in the Church of England. He asked
why should the clergy of the established church be pre-
cluded from preaching in dissenting
.places of worship ; and
why, on the other hand, should eminent dissenting minis-
ters be precluded from preaching in pulpits of the Church.
of England ? For these reasons he thought the Govern-
ment ought to allow the house some time to consider the
provisions of this bill. He moved as an amendment that
the bill be read a second time that day week.
Mr. NEWDEGATE supported the amendment. The
bill had only that morning been placed in their hands.
Members of the Church of England, who took a deep inte-
rest in every thing connected with the Prayer-Book, ought
to have some time afforded them to consider the clauses of
the bill. Even if its principle had already been sanctioned,
and to a certain extent acted on, yet the Government should
allow some time for consideration of the details.
Mr. ROEBUCK hoped the house would not require
seven days to do an act of absolute common sense. (Hear,
hear.) Were they to stop now to discuss the propriety of
abolishinc, such services as those for the execution of
Charles I. and the commemoration of the Gunpowder Plot
of Guido Fawkes ? The question did not require a delay of
seven minutes, much less seven days. (Hear, hear.) He
could not understand at all what his hon. friend and col-
league(Mr. Hadfield) meant. (Laughter.) The matters he
had referred to concerned only those who were members of
the Church of England, but his hon. friend always prided
himself on being a dissenter. (Hear, hear.) If the Church
of England chose to preach 24 hours every day it could be
nothing to him. (Laughter.) He hoped the house would
deal with the bill like men of common sense. The Govern-
ment had at last come to the conclusion that these services
were unnecessary, and he trusted the bill would be read
without delay. (Cries of." Divide I")
Mr. HADFIELD withdrew his amendment ; and
The bill was read a second time, to go into committee
on Friday. _ _ _

bill for the abolition of Manor Courts and for the better
recovery of small debts in Ireland, briefly pointed out the
evils incident to these tribunals, which were, moreover,nove
rendered wholly unnecessary by the existence of the.CountY
Courts. He proposed to abolish the Manor Courts through-
out the entire country, more especially as under the County'
Court Act the Lord Lieutenant and the Privy Council had
power, whenever a case was made outfor such a proceeding
to create new circuits for the judges of those courts. The
bill proposed to give to magistrates in tty sessions a small debtjurisdiction to the extent of 205., with an appeal from
their decision to a County Court judge. The hon. and
learned gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring
in the bill.
After a few words from Colonel FRENCH,
Leave was then given to bring in the bill, which V'''.
read a first time.
SALE AND TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND.)
Mr. WHITESIDE then moved for leave to bringin a 13,1
to facilitate the sale and transfer of land, by simplif3 is
consolidating the law relatingto judgments, and by providing
for the protection of purchasers against Crown debts in
Ire-
land. In ancient times a judgment did not affect the land,
d
but the law in Ireland differed from that in England, an,
judgments were made assignable at law. The result was that
when a landowner wanted moneythe country attorney sent
for a stamp, and assigned the judgment to a friend, who
brought the property into Chancery had a receiver 'LP:
pointed, and accumulated costs upon the estate. In 1830
Sir M. O'Loughlen introduced an act which gave power to
creditors, instead of taking a moiety, to apply for a recei,Tert
over the whole of the debtor's estate. The result was till
the country was covered with receivers, and greater
were produced than those which were sought to be reme-
died. The next act, the 3d and 4th of Victoria, known as
Piggott's Act, extended the lien from freehold estates to
leaseholds for terms of years, so that leasehold estates he-
came complicated as well as freeholds. In 1849 one of the
best committees that ever sat was appointed by the Ilete
of Commons to inquire into the receiver system. This CO'''.
mittee evidently doubted whether there ought to be se
much facility given for Irish gentlemen to
get into debt.
They. were, however, told by the lawyers that Ireland was,
not ripe for the remedy which was clearly in the minds e...`
the committee. They therefore recommended some Palli:re
fives, and said it might be necessary to have an ento
change of system. The evidence taken by that comt„,
conclusively proved that a more mischievoui system
the then existing system of judgments and receivers it Ns
impossible to imagine. The 12th and 13th of Victol
endeavoured to carry out some of the recommendatiens_`_'d
the committee, and in one of the clauses of that act he found
the solution of the present difficulty. This clause prey's%
that where the judgment did not exceed £l5O it should tie
be a lien upon the land. If the principle were good,
...1\1„/
should it not be adopted, whatever the amount ? Sir Jobe
Romilly, in the 13th and 14th of Victoria sought to cue
the evils still existing from the state of the law in Irelii
but his measure also produced greater evils than it found'
To the policy, of the first part of his bill he entirely su
scribed. Sir J. Romilly said that the evils caused b 7 ,cia
law relating to judgments in Ireland were of two dese%
tions ono due to the management of the land' rt other as to the power of disposing of it. It was Peeta
to Ireland that a judgmen.t creditor might 'sithon
deeds
notice to the debtor, go to the office for registering
and file an affidavit to the effect that the debtor
„er;
land in a certain county. The affidavit was consider/170
place the parties in theposition of granter and
grantee.
affidavit was turned into a deed, and then it could be turned
into a mortgage. The act was therefore called the
.Judg-
ment Mortgage Act. It was supposed that such a juld
ment creditor had a veritable mortgage ; but that tutn,,,,
out not to be the case, and recent decisions gave him only'
the position of a judgment creditor. These decisions made
the act worth nothing ; and he proposed to repeal it and':
other acts upon the subject, simply enacting that no jig! •
ment should be a lien upon land until equitable execute;
was sued out, in the shape of a petition in the Lane
Estates Court for the sale of the debtor's property arib.
whom there was a claim. He had, no doubt, said eic°
to induce the house to grant him permission to introale°
bill. (Cheers.) • gam,
M'EVOY wished to know when the right Ion•
tleman would introduce a Landlord and Tenant
Mr. DOBBS concurred that it was necessary to rein
the chaotic state of the law as to judgments. tro-
Mr. MALINS congratulated the Govern lent on in,
clueing so useful a measure for Ireland, pad expressfu_A.
hope that the same principle would be extended to England
There was no more reason why a judgment should be "'A
upon a man's land than upon his hoisehold furnitur%stie
judgment ought not to bind the latet until a suit was
tuted, or, at all events, execution sued out. (Hear„lei
t aL!),3
Leave was then given to int,oduce the bill, wllich
subsequently read a first time
RECEIVERS IN CHANCERY (IRELAND)•,,,„
Mr. WHITESIDE, in zising to move for leave to tin'"_/
duce a bill for the abolition of receivers under the Court
Chancery in Ireland, paid, in reference to the question 4
the hon. member for Meath, that he would appoint a dal rd
bringing in the Landlord and Tenant Bill when he returnee„
from Ireland, where he was obliged to go for a few dais.
With regard to the present bill there had been so many coin.
mittees and they had all so unanimously condemned the el!,
tern of appointing receivers that he did not apprehend full.
difficulty in obtaining permission to legislate on the subje%
There were at present 1,100 receivers in the office of t'',lsf
Receiver Master, besides 200 or 300 others in the offiCes
the other Masters. The effect of the system had beeu.,Z,
complicate the land of Ireland to an enormous extent, 'tc.lTa
out effecting any good in return, and its abolition would
a great boon to landed property. The bill would provide
no receiver should be appointed where.a party could obtain_,t
a sale. Of course, there would be certain exceptions, but
they would be very few.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill, which was
subsequently read a first time.
MARKETS (IRELAND).
Lord NAAS obtained leave to introduce a;bill for the
Re-
gelation of Markets in Ireland. He said the measure was'
in many reepects, similar to the bill introduced by his IN:d
decessor last year, but in one important respect it ditter'i
from it. It did not propose to deal with the question 0:
fairs. These fairs were not held so frequently as the "Wirt
kets, and it would be almost impossible to provide sufficient
enclosed space for them. Tolls, too had been abolished id
most of the fairs, and any attempt ;et reimpose them we,td.
be most unpopular. The same necessity for leeislation el_
not seem to exist in the case of fairs. The bilrproposed
oos
appoint a commissioner and assistant-commissioner, -sl
duty it should be to regulate the markets.
LUNATIC POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord NAAS moved for leave to bring in a bill to consoli-
date and amend the laws relating to the lunatic poor in Ire-
land. In 1806 a commission was appointed to inquire into
the state and circumstances connected with the asylums Or
the lunatic poor in Ireland. Thesegentlemen, after examilv
ing a great number of persons, published a report and other
documents, in which would be found all the inforMation
ne-
cessary to a complete acquaintance with the Subject. The
bill which he proposed to bring in would, in a great mea-
sure, carry out the recommendations of the commissioners'
although it would not go to the extent suggested by thee 6
gentlemen. The bill would not include the private hulat'.,°
asylums in its provisions, but would be confined to asylums
for the lunatic poor. The main feature of his bill would'b°
the introduction of local supervision and control in respect
to these asylums, instead of placing them under the direc-
tion of the executive of Ireland, as they were by the mist-
ing law. The effect of the existing system, owing to the
want of proper control, was that a number of costly Lal-
ings had been erected in .various parts of Ireland for the
confinement of the lunatic, poor, and great dissatisfaction
had been created in those parts of the country where the
asylums had.been erected on account of the expense created
by the erection of these buildings. It was determined that
this system should cease, and in lieu thereof he proposed to
substitute a committee of visitation for the several localities
in which asylums were erected, who would have power to
give directions for the erection and repairing and general
management of the several asylums, and these committees
should emanate from the grand juries of the several coat-
ties in Ireland, and they would have the appointment of the
inspectors and other officers connected with the in.stitutionst
and would also direct what was to be the amount of the sa-
laries to be paid to the officers. The commissioners, to whem
he had already alluded, recommended that a general cen-
tral board should be formed at:Dublin, who would have the
entire control of the asylums in question. Now, he could
not agree with this, as he looked with distrust upon all
such bodies. He proposed by his bill to define the duties
of the several 'persons to' be appointed under the bill, and
the Lord Lieutenant 'of Ireland would have power to se°
that the several provisions of the bill would be carried out
in respect to the appointments to be made under the bill.
The noble lord then referred to the present mode of ad-
mission of pauper lunatics into lunatic asylums, which be
looked upon as defective, and he proposed to throw on the
Poor-law relieving officer the responsibility of seeing to the
admission of a pauper lunatic into the local asylum,,either
by bringing him before the magistrate, or by taking the
magistrate to the poor man, with a view to the necessary
order being given for the admission of the lunatic into
the asylum. He also gave power in the bill to remove all
lunatics from workhouses and gaols to the asylum, as he •
conceived that nothing could be worse than to keep such
persons in either gaols or workhouses. It appeared that
there were at present 3,823 poor lunatics in district asylwes
in Ireland, 1,700 in the workhouses, 150 in the gaols, and
3,000 at large all over the country. Now, he proposed to
give power to the committees having the direction of
the asylums in question, to admit a certain class of lunette
patients into the asylums upon paying a certain sum for
their care ; and he further empowered .the committee,
they found that patients had property, to make the propertY
liable for their support and Medical care. The bill would
repeal all previous acts on this subject. It would be a com-
plete code, in which all persons engaged in or with the asy-
lums—from the inspector down to the humblest officer—•
will find all their duties defined and stated, so that there
wouldibe no difficulty hereafter in reference to these points.
He begged to move for leave to bring in the bill in question.
Mr. BAGWELL was favourable to the principle of the
bill,
Lordbut
NAAS,
At
hAes doubtedasylums
ny
lu them policyanswer
sele et
too
ef
dt
hffrom having
omt
objectionh eh egr acontrollingtnadk e
mitteesit would be better to leave the appointment of juries.thethofiollegehrist
of those institutions to the representatives of those who paid
for them.

Mr. APEVOY thought it would be improper to leave the
whole of the appointments in the hands of grand juries.
He approved of the view taken by the noble lord who in-
troduced the bill.
Leave was then given to introduce the bill.
HIGHWAYS IN ENGLAND.
Mr. HARDY moved for leave to bring in a bill for the
better management of highways in England.
Mr. PHILLIPS suggested that the bill should contain a
definition of what a highway is.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill, and it was read
a first time.

TRAMWAYS IN IRELAND.
Sir R. FERGUSON obtained leave to bring in a bill to facili-
tate internal communication in Ireland by means of tram-
roads or tramways.
The house adjourned at ten minutes to eight.

LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG,
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112,
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of
Middlesex, Tuesday, February 8, 1859.

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