The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-12 00:00:00

submit to the establishment of local registries throughout
the country. He was afraid that his hon. sold learned hurl
would be compelled, by the combined opposition which
be arrayed against him, to make a comprinise
adopting both a local and a metropolitan registry. n
entirely concurred with him as to the expediency of a me-
tropolitan registry, but, as he had said, he would warn lit'
of the great difficulty which he would have to encounter.'
The success of the measure would depend upon the simaplt
city and efficiency of its machinery, upon its being so e sistY_
worked and so intelligible as to recommend itself to he
consequencecountry
the
country
afur
taz frankly admittedlargeby whomthati t
was introduced. The hon. and learned gentleman had 0!1e
great advantage in the bill being brought forward by:,?.!,'
present Government, because it would be more generally
welcome, and be accepted with greater confidence by the
country gentlemen than if he had had the good fortune 1°
.
prevail with the late Government to bring in such a measul,,,,
(Laughter.) He assured him that he would give bin; le
most cordial support at all the stages of the bill, tow „,
trusted that this great measure of legal reform would bri,t
t‘hvaesooLlitortl;
benefit to the community by becoming law during the
present session, (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DOBBS expressed general approval of the measure'
Mr. AYRTON wished to draw the attention of the b°lli
and learned gentleman to one or twe points. One object
of the bill was to introduce a state of things which it Ncls...t
the object of acts passed some 300 years ago to do, bt,
which was repealed in four or five years. From that day
.I.';
the present the attempt to give a judicial or Parliament°''
title to the land had failed, and he hoped the present agent')t
would be more successful. He wished to have an explailit;
tion on this point. According to the law of England,
clip,
title to land was not complete without possession, all, aid
this respect the great distinction existed between land „f
other species of property. He demurred to that portionio
the report which expressed the opinion that there vras
distinction between land and stock.
Mr. WALPOLE—No, no.
Mr. AYRTON—Between the principles upon which WY
were to deal with them, which amounted to the same tbilt;
Possession was the great distinction. A tenant for life Int
possession of land, but he was not to be on the register ;
the trustee was. After twenty years' possession the tru7.
would only have a naked estate, according to the
8
law. He wished to know how this difficulty was to be re
medied ? the
Mr. C. D. GRIFFITH said he should be glad to beet.',„,...
experience of his hon. and learned friend (the Solion,
General) in reference to the act passed last session for Ire
f
land. Under that act a rate of charges for transfers
land had been established which was out of all proportV
and much against the principles of political economy a
hoped the same rate of charge would not be adopted 11%0
this act. (" Hear, hear," from the Solicitor-General) lt
rate of charge in Ireland was much too high, and the res7o
was that charging one per cent. on all property kept Jill°
estates out of the Court. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. R. LOWE considered that the introduction of tilt:,
measure reflected the very highest honour and credit 1131106
her Majesty's Government, and by bringing it forward
Government was doing everything to benefit the 1an0.,0
interest—an interest with which they were supposed to
very much connected. But looking at the history of pa'',
times, he was afraid that the exertions which the Goveri%
ment were making to benefit that party would not p,
appreciated so much as expected. (Hear, hear.) The Ils°4
member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had sti"'„,
that the commission had fallen into a conflict of ideas in e",
deavouring to liken the taunter of land to a transfer ot,
ship. Now the system on which the transfer of ships t(?000.1'
place was founded in 1853, two years before this comrnissiled,
was constituted—and that system had completely succeeutio
and, he could from his experience state, had given
greatest satisfaction to shipowners. As to stock, thepres a
system had been in existence for upwards of 100 years, Btie'a
it required no explanation from him. What they volleto
in regard to ships was a person to represent the complete
ownership for the purpose of transfer and then they 110
ft
the beneficial ownership to be arranged by the familY9,ol
principle of arranging the title being a 'matter with
the public had nothing to do. The same system would, bd
this bill, becarried out in regard to land. But the hon. 10
learned gentleman wished to know how it would be possito
to connect the land with the title on the register. 1,,
answer was, how was it done now ? But it was done °°"
stantly. A man produced a number of deeds which P,,11
ported to belong to certain property which he wished to wei
and convey to the purchaser; but how did the purellre
obtain his knowledge of that property ? Why, by senul
to inquire all particulars, or by going to see it himself,
then by comparing it with the description in the de
The same course would have to be pursued under this b,
The difficulties, if any, were ejusdent generis, and could '„
easily removed in the same manner. He wished it to
understood that no suggestion had been offered for the VI
pose of making a perfect measure which had not, durtull
the three years' incessant labour of the commission, been
considered. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MALINS said what had been said to-night had been
listened to by him with the greatest attention, and it should
receive his best consideration. • He thought it right to state
the impression on his mind was that his honourable ,1
learned friend was rather too sang-uine of success. (Hear;
hear, from Mr. Hadfield.) He was a great advocate ;-°-
simplifying titles and transferring lands ; and if it, could be
done it would be a great benefit to the public. But great,,,
benefits had of late years been conferred in this way, and lie
say that titles to land had been simplified and tug
laws relating thereto had been simplified ; still he admit°
that these laws were very imperfect, and if it could 131
proved by experience that titles could be simplified, an
that the new court—call it by what name they mighto,,
could, by a declaration, give purchasers a complete title, L'd
would support the bill. When his hon. and learned friend
stated that the measure would only apply to owners in .1",
and those who had been in possession for five years, th°st
only would be able to obtain a judicial declaration, and that,
only in the final mode after a period of 15 months. 1111..ideti
these circumstances he was afraid that the measure Avou'i
not have very extensive application. The registration of
titles was one of very great difficulty. He was glad to hear
a disclaimer against a system of general registration °i
deeds. The expenses would be so great as to prevent the
system being useful. The Encumbered Estates Court ld
Ireland had been in operation for 10 years. If a person be
purchased an estate in the year 1849, and now proposed t°
sell it, what would be the operation ? The title would eon,:
mence in that year, instead of going back 60 years, and thsv
would, no doubt, be exceedingly small and advantageous,
but suppose dealings had taken place since 1849, or a will
made affecting the property, he apprehended these doew
ments must still form a part of the title. (Hear, hear, fret
Mr. Hadfield.) So it would be in the new court. They
would, no doubt, begin with a title and declaration 0
ownership. If they could establish the practice in regard t°
land as already used in reference to stock in the flaws;
nothing would be more simple. But unless they could sever
the legal ownership from the equitable ownership, no inge;
nuity, no scheme, however simple it might appear, -weld''
ever meet the difficulties which presented themselves. (Hea.,
As long as the law permitted the variety of estates which
could be created out of the fee simple, together with all the
complication of settlements and equitable interests, simpli;
city of title could not be attained: And apart from that
consideration, this machinery of caveats would in a short
time burden the title which must be deduced from the de-
claration of it, however far removed, whereas at present, b 9
deed, the seller may covenant not to produce title earlier
than at a certain period. At the same time he promised to
give the bill his best consideration.
Mr. HADFIELD feared the bill would not produce the
simplicity which they expected from it as long as the title,
was to be burdened with equitable interests. He believed
that the court would be very little resorted to, at all events
from the northern counties.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would not enter upon
the objections made to the bill that night, for ho believed it
would be found they had not existence in the bill. He
hoped the bill would be printed and in the hands of mem-
bers on Wednesday next, and that they would not object to
take the discussion on the second reading on next Monday
fortnight. •
Leave was then given to bring in a bill relating to the
titles to landed estates, and a bill to provide for the registry
of landed estates, and they were brought in and read a first
time.

THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
Mr. WALPOLE moved for leave to bring in a bill to
amend the acts relating to the Ecclesiastical Commission.
Without entering into details that evening, he said the
chief points were those four ,viz., Ist, The management
and restoration of episcopal estates; 2d, The accounts of
the different chapters, so as to bring them under a manage-
ment similar to the episcopal property ; 3d, The principle
of local claims, as they are called, whether it might not be
extended beneficially to • other property than tithes ; and,
4th, The mode in which the Government proposed to put
an end to leases with renewals for a specific period of time,
providing in the meantime, while that process is going on,
that those who have the right shall receive their renewals.
Leave was given to bring in the bill, and it was read a
first time.
The house then adjourned, at a quarter to ten o'clock.
till Monday.

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BIRTHS.
Cnorr.—On the 11th inst., at 13, Camden-road Villas, the
wife of Robert Charles Croft, Esq., 111.R.C.5., of a
daughter.

Ross.---On the 9th inst., at Chatham, the wife of Lieut.
Col. A. Ross, R.E., of a son.
SOMBUVILLE.—On the 11th inst., at 13, Porchester-square
W., the wife of Stafford Somerville, Esq., of a daugh-
ter.
TALBOT.—On the 11th inst., at Ballinclea, near Dalkey,
the Hon. Mrs. It. G. Talbot, of a son.