The Sun.
London, England, 1835-06-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 24, 1835.

these very cases which showed the mischief of preserving the
rights of freemen for these purposes. There was a charity in
that town called the Four Pound Charity, of which it was
stated that one of the rights of admission to it was derived
from a person's voting in such a way for Members of Parlia-
ment as was approved by the Corporation ; and that it was a
reason for the non-admission of a person if he did not vote in
the way that the Corporation approved, or if, to use the local
and familiar phrase, he did not bring money into their well.
—( Hear, hear.) It was stated that out of the 1,273 free-
men of Coventry, 936 belonged to the Corporation side, and
337 only to the other. Then what did the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman propose to do? He proposed to keep up the
right of the freemen to vote in municipal elections as well as
in elections for Members of Parliament, and at the same time,
of course, to keep up their right to the 41. charity, leaving to
the Corporation the power of distributing that charity, as it
had always hitherto done, for Parliamentary purposes. By
this means the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would preserve
the briber and the bribee.—( Hear, hear.) But then the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman's amendment went on to say, that the
rights, privileges, and property, to which the freemen were
now by law entitled, should not in any way be affected by the
present measure. Now many of those rights and privileges
were of a description most hurtful to the towns in which they
were allowed to exist. To a small body of freemen, for in-
stance, was given a complete monopoly of trade, and an
exemption from all the tolls imposed upon those who had not
obtained the freedom of the town. And why were the freemen
picked out from among their fellow-citizens for the enjoyment of
these exclusive rights and privileges? He did not wish to say
any thing disrespectful towards that claw of persons ; but he must
say that they were not selected on account of any peculiar merit
that they possessed. They were chosen as a small body from
out of the rest of the inhabitants, and were vested with mo-
nopolies and privileges for a certain purpose. These mono-
polies and privileges it was now proposed to preserve ; and in
preserving, they would preserve what ? Not the corporate
franchise, which might be of some use—not the corporate
rights which they had long enjoyed, but the Parliamentary
liVanchise alone ; which Parliamentary franchise, as the House
well knew, had given to them a title to the charities of the
corporations, and had been one of the greatest temptations
to a violation of the proper and legitimate use of their rights
and privileges. Therefore he was not much inclined to agree
with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Indeed he really did
not know how the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's proposition
was to be carried into effect. Government proposed certain
machinery for the correction of corporate abuses, and by which
the mayor and town council were in future to be elected. But
how were they to contrive that those freemen who belonged to
no corporation, and whose rights only were preserved to give
them a title to corporate charities and to the exercise of the Par-
liamentary franchise—how were they to devise a machinery by
which persons possessing such anomalous rights were to have
all those rights confirmed, he confessed he was utterly at a loss
to conceive. He would ask the Committee would there not be
the greatest danger, if on the one side they were to create a
municipal body having the rights and privileges which munici-
pal bodies by this Bill were to possess, and at the same time to
place by the side of them another body receiving a monopoly
of charities, and enjoying a monopoly of trade? Would there
not, he asked, be the greatest danger, if such a state of things
were allowed to exist, of exciting a constant rivalry in corpo-
rate towns, of depriving the corporate goverment of the au-
thority and influence it ought to possess, and of giving rise to
continual struggles between the old corporators and old free-
men, to set up their influence against the corporate govern-
merit established under the new law—(Loud cheers)—thus
endangering the good order, quiet, and peace of the town,
which it ought to be the first object of the House to secure in
legislating on a subject of this kind ?--(Cheers.) He would
cot now enter into the separate question of how far the pecu-
nii.ry rights preserved by the tenth clause should be extended;
notice of a motion upon that point had been given by an Hon.
Gentleman then in the House, and he (Lord John Russell)
would reserve his opinion upon it until that motion was brought
forward. He would merely state that the wish of the Go-
vernment was to preserve all existing pecuniary rights. That
was the principle of the tenth clause ; but if it could be shown
to his conviction that that principle ought to be extended be-
yond the provisions of that clause, he should be ready to yield
to conviction, and should think that instead of injuring he vs a,
rather improving that part of the Bill.—( Cheers.) The pre-
sent, however, was a different proposition ? it was a proposi-
tion, as he considered it, to maintain— and to maintain for pur-
poses most injurious—those old freemen whose rights were
proposed to be abolished by this Bill. Fur his own part, he
acknowledged he should be disposed to say that the proposi-
tion made by the Hon. Member for N,wcastle in the eat ly part
of the debate, to preserve the freemen for corporate purposes,
would be the better proposition of the two. He thought the
present proposition was one which would mutilate, if not de-
stroy the efficiency of the Bill ; and he should, therefore, give
it his most strenuous opposition. He felt quite sure that if
the House were to consent to it, it would afterwards have rea-
son to repent its not availing itself of so fair an opportunity o,
obtaining a full and efficient reform of Corporation abuses.—
(Ctieers.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM would not detain the House one
moment longer than was positively necessary ; but as his Noble
Friend had alluded so pointedly and personally to him, it was
absolutely incumbent on him to say a few words. His Noble
Friend had rather insinuated that his advice would not be very
agreeable to him (Sir James Graham.) He could not return
the compliment. He was at all times not only anxious to re-
ceive advice from his Noble Friend, but he had been so long
associated with him, and he esteemed him so sincerely, that
even reproof from his Noble Friend would never be received
unkindly by him. His Noble Friend said he had observed
with surprise his ( Sir J. Graham's) recent conduct, and the
view which he had taken of public affairs since the passing of
the Reform Bill. He thought his Noble Friend would do him
justice, when he said that, to the best of his ability, no col-
league who sat by his side on the Treasury Bench during
that eventful period, supported the measure of Reform more
strenuously, more firmly, more constantly than he did.—
(Cheers from the Opposition.) He did so on a principle well
known to his Noble Friend—a principle avowed by the head
of the Government under whom he and his Noble Friend hod
served. The principle enunciated by Lord Grey on more
than one occasion, was this—that he and his colleagues
brought forward the measure of Reform in the representation
of the people—extensive as he admitted it to be, great as even
the supporters of it admitted it to be beyond their expecta-
tions—for one reason, and that reason was this, that because it
was so extensive he sought to find a resting-place whereon he
might resist steadfastly, manfully, and constantly, all further
change.--(Loud cheering.) He did not presume to say
that that understanding was binding on Parliament.—( Great
cheering from the Ministerial side.) He did not presume to
say that it was binding on that House ; but on himself as a
matter of honour, whilst he continued to take any part in the
public affairs, he did consider it as binding as any obligation
that a public man could take upon himself in the face of the
nation.----( Loud cheers.) Those who had been his colleagues
in Lord Grey's Government might take a different view of the
subject,,but upon that he had nothing to say. It was enough
for him to be the guardian of his own honour and consistency,
and thus he had been led to avow, distinctly and plainly,
what was his view on the subject. His Noble Friend had
also stated that he was astonished at the degree of alarm
which he (Sir James Graham) seemed to feel when certain
Gentlemen, who were the Noble Lord's opponents as well as
his own, rose to express certain opinions. He admiited that
when he was a party to the introduction of the large measure
of Reform to which he had referred, he did anticipate other
changes as a natural consequence of it. For instance, he
considered a Reform of the Church as its necessary conse-
quence ; he still regarded it as such ; but he did not anticipate
then, nor would he support now, as a Reform of the Eccle-
siastical Establishment, the alienation of the property of the
Church---( Opposition cheers)—or the separation of the Church
Establishment from the State.—(" Questioa" from the Minis-
terial side, answered by cheering on the Opposition.) So,
also, he had anticipated the necessity of Municipal Reform,
and in the spirit of that anticipation had supported the second
reading of the Bill then under consideration. Indeed he was
most anxious to give effect, not only to the principle, but to
all the necessary details of that Bill. His Noble Friend had
asked him if he considered this to be an indirect measure of
Corporate Reform ? He certainly was not so disposed to re-
gard it. He looked upon it as a direct and complete measure
of Municipal Reform, and it was on that ground that he had
supported its principle ; but he maintained that there was one
passage in it which had an indirect tendency, and that passage
was contained in the clause then under consideration. He
maintained that that part of the clause was not germane to the
Bill, and was not necessarily connected with it ; in fact, that
it was unnecessary, tending only to tamper indirectly with the
representation of the people, as fixed by the Reform Bill. It
was for this reason that he opposed it. The Noble Lord then
said, he was rather astonished at his ( Sir J. Graham) timid
caution, when he heard the bold propositions made by their
common opponents, the Hon. Members for Southwark and
Middlesex. He ( Sir J. Graham) must confess, it was not the
caution of his Noble Frieed that astonished him, but the bold-
ness of his Noble Friend, when he saw the measures into
which h
e was
Cheers.hurried, ) not by his opponents, but by his sup-
porters.—(
Sir W. FOLLETT expressed his readiness to acquiesce in
the suggestion made by his Right Hon. Friend ( Sir James
Graham). Therefore, with the permission of the Committee,
he would withdraw the amendment in the terms in which it
then stood, for the purpose of introducing another amendment,
embodying his Right Hon. Friend's suggestion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that the course which
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman now proposed to take,
afforded a direct answer to the charge of indirectness which
had been made by his Right Hon. Friend.—( Hear.)
Lord STANLEY defended the rights of the freemen, and
intended that they were not the poor, wretched, degraded,
demoralized set of beings which the Hon. and Learned Attor-
ney-General had described them, nor were they persons
whose rights the same learned authority had asserted to be
a usurpation. He should like to know how that could be
called a usurpation, the origin of which no lawyer could trace.
The Attorney-General had said that freemen were a class of
voters who had been constantly guilty of corrupt practices,
and that until they were entirely done away, there was no
chance of getting rid of such practices. He appealed to any
Gentleman in the House, who had a constituency of freemen,
whether he was prepared to sanction this description of the
character of freemen ? He had himself seen something of
that class of society, and although he knew that, under very
strong temptation, they had been led astray—( Hear, hear)----
yet he also knew that for the three last elections they bad re-
sisted every species of temptation, and had acted honestly.—
(Hear, hear.) He looked with regret at the hard line that
Gentlemen were inclined to draw between different classes in
society. He should regret that men should feel that the
mere possession of property would entitle them to share in
municipal rights. It had always been the practice in this coun-
try for poor men to enjoy the privilege of municipal freedom.

The Poor Law Bill had already been a severe blow on the feel- 1
ings of the poorer classes.—( Hear.) They could not, thore-
fore help looking with some degree of jealousy on the Legisla- ,
ture withholding from them that right which they had hitherto
enjoyed for a long series of years. They would see that this
House was becoming more and more the exclusive possession
of the middle classes of society, while the rights and feelings
of the lower classes would eventually altogether cease being
represented in it. It was remarked that the whole stress of
the arguments adduced in support of the present clause was,
that it would be an improvement of the Reform Bill, and
would correct the error formerly committed in prolonging the
right of the freemen to vote for Members of Parliament. The
clause, therefore, was not proposed merely as being incidental
to Corporation Reform, but with a view to destroy the rights
which the freemen enjoyed under the Reform Bill. He hoped
the House would not be induced to make this first invasion of
that measure, which was declared to be a final measure by the
very men who were now endeavouring to evade it.

The question was again put, when-
Mr. ROBINSON rose amidst loud cries of" Divide, di-
vide I" He was the representative of a large body of those
freemen whose interests were attempted to be invaded by this
Bill in a manner to which he felt himself_ bound to offer the
most decided opposition.—( Hear, hear.) He ventured to as-
sert that the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Go-
vernment, would not dare to attempt to do by a direct mea-
sure, that which he was attempting to do indirectly by a pro-
position to reform the Municipal Corporations of this couutry.
—(Loud Opposition cheers, and loud cries of " Order, order !
bar, bar I) The Noble Lord proposed, in a measure ostensi-
bly having for its object the reform of Municipal Corporations,
to deprive persons of the privilege which they now enjoyed of
returning Members to this House. Now he asked the Noble
Lord, who was a party to the Parlimentary Reform Bill,
which the Government of Lord Grey declared to be a final
measure, whether he would venture to come forward, in the
face of this House and of the country, to propose a measure for
disfranchising existing freemen of the right of voting for Mem-
bers of Parliament ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to
say, in answer to the question put to him by the Hon. Gentle-
man, that the Hon. Gentleman did not seem to understand the
object of this Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Its object was not to cll..
prive existing freemen of the right of voting for Members of
Parliament.—( Ministerial cheers.) He thought the clause was
already sufficiently clear upon this point ; otherwise he would
propose the insertion of words that should expressly say that all
existing rights of freemen to vote for Members of Parliament
should be preserved.—( Cheers.) But according to his con-
struction of the clause the insertion of any such words would be
totally unnecessary. The House would permit him to explain
what the nature of the clause really was. The proposal of his
Majesty's Ministers was this :—that all corporate bodies should
in future consist of burgesses who were we-payers, according
to the sixth section of this Bill ; and that there should be nu
other burgesses or freemen whatsoever. Therefore, after the
existing lives of freemen were extinct, there certainly would
not be any freemen in any borough who would have a right to
vote for Members of Parliament.—(Laughter and cheers from
the Opposition.)
Mr. ROBINSON understood the object of the Bill per-
fectly well. He As not complaining that existing freemen
would be deprived of the right of voting for Members of Par-
liament ; but what he complainod of was, that the descendants
of those freemen, having inchoate rights to be freemen, were
attempted to be deprived of that right of voting. He consi-
dered it a most disingenuous course of proceeding on the part
of any Minister or any Cabinet whatever to do that which the
Noble Lord and his colleagues were now doing. The Noble
Lord himself just now admitted that he and his colleagues of
Earl Grey's Government assented somewhat reluctantly to the
admission of the rights of freemen under the Reform Bill,
and that they did so because they considered it would smooth
the passage of that Bill through Parliament. We were to
understand, then, that the Noble Lord's political morality
consisted in this—that a Minister might state that he was
willing to consent that certain rights should be preserved in
order to get a Bill through both Houses of Parliament, and
then, having obtained that obiect, he might. two years aft .1.-
w4rds, down t., llou4t. and to
hose very rights overboard..---( Loud Orpo,it;on ebt-ers. ) 11,2
cared not to what misrepresentations his conduct miglt sub-
ject him, but he never would be a p-trty to proceedings that
were alike disingenuous and dishonourable to any Minister.—
( Renewed Opp ,sition cheers.) He should like to have asked
the Learned Attorney-General, if he had been in his place,
whether those acts of usurpation, of which he had so loudly
complained, were not known at the time of passing the Re
form Bill as well as they were now ? He denied altogether
the corruption attributed solely to the freemen. He believed
it was proved before the Ipswich Committee that the larger
portion of persons bribed were 10/. householders, and not
freemen. But he should like to ask the Noble Lord upon
what principle it was that he was so earnest in preserving the
rights of another set of persons, whose claims could not be
put in competition with those of the freemen of Corporations
moarit the rights of those persons whose names were on
the Pension List ?—(Cheers.) How tender were the feelings
exhibited by the Noble Lord for the rights of individuals on
that occasion.—( Cheers.) In conclusion, he though that this
clause would do more to shake public confidence in the pro-
ceedings of this House than any other measure that had been
brought forward since he had had the honour of a seat in
Parliament.
Mr. CHARLES BULLER then rose, but the cries of
" Divide 1" and " Withdraw I" made it impossible to hear
more than a few detached sentences of the Hon. and
Learned Member's speech. Some gentlemen (he said) had
complained that this question was not brought forward in a
proper and direct manner; but, for his part, he could not un-
derstand how there could possibly be any equivocation in the
course adopted. Was there any reason why. his Majesty's
Ministers should endeavour to carry their object in an indi-
rect manner ; and even if they desired to do so, what possible
hope was there that they would escape the vigilance of
those alert advocates whom they now saw so earnestly vindi-
cating the poor man's rights—rights so justly dear to him ?
—( Ceers and laughter.) There could be no motive, then,
for Ministers to make such an attempt • and, certainly, the dis-
cussion. which they had this night heard, proved that such an
attempt would have been most monstrous indeed.—( Hear,
hear.) These freemen were the worst features of our repre-
sentative system, and were a curse upon the new con-
stituency. He could not refrain expressing his surprise at the
doctrines which had been advanced by Noble Lords and
Hon. Gentlemen on the other side. He must confess
that lie began to feel great alarm for the stability of the
monarchical institutions of this country, when he observed
the democratic tone which those Noble Lords and Hon.
Gentlemen sometimes took.—( Loud cheering.) He thought
that if ever the limited monarchy of this empire should be
superseded by a democratic republic, it would be occasioned
by the bidding which those Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen
seemed so much disposed to make for the sake of a little tem-
porary popularity.—( Ministerial cheers.) When he heard
the Noble Lord (the Member for Liverpool) speaking of the
rights of the poor man, he was reminded of the time when he
first had the honour of a seat in Parliament. He used then
to hear Mr. Hunt (the Member for Preston) advocate the poor
man's rights.—( Cheers.) That Hon. Member sat where the
Noble Lord was now seated ; and the language which the
Noble Lord had this night used, when claiming for these poor
men the right to vote, was exactly the language which Mr.
Henry Hunt was wont to use in support of universal suffrage.
—( Loud cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then
stated that freemen were more open to corruption than any
other class of voters; and he referred to the evidence taken
before the Municipal Corporation Commissioners in support
of this proposition. In one borough it had been the usual
practice to chalk up the price of a vote on the shutters of the
committee-rooms.--(Cries of " Name, name.") In another
place the candidates used openly to give 15!. and a pig for a
vote ; and the pig was paraded in the streets, decorated with
the colours of the candidate who gave it.—(Loud cries of
" Name, name.") He was exceedingly sorry to disap-
point Hon. Gentlemen by not naming the places ; but he
begged to refer them to the four volumes of evidence which
were accessible to all.—(" Oh, oh l" " Name, name.") If
he were obliged to name the places, he would say that one of
them was Nottingham—(Tremendous cheering from the
Opposition)—and the other Maidstone.—( Renewed Opposi-
tion cheering.) But while he mentioned these two names, he
begged to say that there were three other instances of corrupt
practices, of a much more remarkable character ; he alluded
to Norwich, Ipswich, and Oxford.—(Loud Ministerial cheers.)
Were these men, he would ask, to be entrusted with the fran-
chise ?—( Hear, hear.) Could it be said that this House would
be infringing on the purity of the Constitution by touching
the rights of such voters as these ? He called upon the House
to take away this franchise, even on account of the freemen
themselves, whom it degraded, demoralized, and impove-
rished. But it was said that a compact had been made at
the passing of the Reform Bill, by which the rights of free-
men were to be preserved. If any such compact had been
amnadd
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the
com-
pact were with them, state that the only condition on which
they agreed to the Reform Bill was, that a particular class of
'eaters should be kept up, who could be corrupted by the
money of the aristocracy.—(Cheers from the Ministerial side,
and cries of " Oh, oh I" from the Opposition.) Yes ; he
would repeat, corrupted by the money of the aristocracy.
Let not the House suppose that this zeal to preserve the
rights of freemen sprung purely out of regard to the poor
man's rights.—( Cheers.) No ; this House—the country at
large—could perceive that the only reason this cry was raised
was, that the aristocracy might preserve the rights of men
whose franchise they could purchase.—( Cheers.)
Captain BERKELEY was bound to say on behalf of those
whom he represented, that if the clause were carried, one
half of his constituents would be at once disfranchised—(hear,
hear !)----they being too the very class of persons on whom
the franchise was conferred only two years ago. He should
vote for the amendment for the very reason which had been
stated by the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud, Lord John
Russell—namely, that these freemen were allowed to retain
their franchise under the Reform Bill, for the mere purpose
of enabling the then Government to conciliate, and to bring
that Reform Bill to a successful termination.—(Cheers.) As
this argument was urged when the Reform Bill was intro-
duced, and as he saw no reason for depriving the very same
class of persons of their franchise now, he should support the
amendment.
Lord STANLEY would not trouble the Committee lite-
rally for more than five minutes. His Right Hon. Friend
the Member for Cumberland ( Sir James Graham) had been
charged with unfairness, in stating that the clause indirectly
accomplished an object which it sought to conceal. He
(Lord Stanley) complained of it as an indirect mode of pro-
ceeding, for this reason, that the Bill now before the House
professed to be a measure for the regulation of the municipal
Corporations of England and Wales. An Honourable
Gentleman who had just now spoken, following tho ex-

ample of other Honourable Members of that House, had
alumniated, he would venture to say, the great body of
the freemen of this country. Now he did not mean to con-
tend that the freemen, as a class, had been, or perhaps were,
either pure or immaculate—( Hear, hear)—but then he be-
lieved that no body of electors in the world was absolutely so—
(Cheers)—and this he would say, that be they as pure as
perfection itself, or be they as foul and as base as they were
represented to be, even by the Hon. and Learned Attorney-
General—(Tremendous cheering from the Opposition)--be
they altogether and exclusively fit to exercise electoral func-
tions, or be they wholly and utterly incapable to exercise
even the lowest of those functions, to those functions the
present measure did not propose to admit them ; from those
functions it did not propose to exclude them.—(Cheers. )
They were now called upon to discuss the propriety of ad-
mitting them to exercise political functions. The question
merely was, their fitness as a municipal body. Then what
became of the great and grave objection which had been
urged against the class of voters coming under the deno-
mination of freemen ? Why, the objection, after all, merely
amounted to this—that they were unfit to exercise a fran-
chise which was not sought to be conferred upon them by
this Bill for political purposes, but a franchise they were
permitted to retain by another Bill for other purposes ; that
other measure forming no part of the present discussion. He
stood upon the plain and simple ground, that the rights of
the freemen were solemnly guaranteed, as his Noble Friend
had said, to secure the passing of the Reform Bill. If
that measure of reform were now sought to be rescinded, the
fair and manly course was to come down to that House, and
move its being rescinded by a separate and definite measure ;
not for the ostensible purpose of conceding or taking away
municipal rights, but avowedly for the purpose of again deal-
ing with the franchise. His grounds of objection to the clause
as it stood, and his reasons for adopting in preference the
amendment which had been moved, were simply these—that
what his Majesty's Government proposed to do was unneces-
sary for the object they professed to have in view ; that it was
unjust, inasmuch as it was in direct opposition to their own
solemn guarantee given two years ago, and if they sought to
do away with that guarantee they ought to have done so
directly by a political measure—not indirectly and by a muni-
cipal one.—( Cheers, and loud cries of " Divide.")
Colonel SIBTHORP, amid the greatest confusion, ex-
pressed his opinion that Hon. Gentlemen opposite were afraid
to hear the truth : denied with great vehemence that he had the
slightest wish to strain his lungs ; and wound up by observing
that such a course as the present would never reconcile the
people to a Reforming Administration.—(The Hon. and Gal-
lant Member resumed his seat amidst protracted cheering.)
Mr. PRAED was desirous of asking a question of the Noble
Lord the Member for Stroud, a question which he should have
asked before had he not been prevented from addressing the
Committee by a threat of the Hon. Member for Desbyshire
(Mr. Gisborne) that he woulkl come forward with a statement
relative to the borough he represented and reply upon him.
He wished to ask the Noble Lord what he proposed to do with
regard to the existing freemen, whose rights he proposed to
continue ?—he wished to know whether the Noble Lord pro-
posed to continue them still on the burgess roll, or to have a
separate Act made out expressly for their use.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that with respect to the
existing freemen, it was only ncecessary that their names
should be enrolled upon a register, and continued upon it as
long as they lived, according to the precedent of the first Re-
form Act. No new names would be entered on the register,
and no difficulty, he imagined, could arise.
Mr. PRAED suggested, that in that case the same machi-
nery which was used with respect to the existing freemen
might be applied to more remote rights.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was of opinion that the same
machinery could not be applied to them, inasmuch as they
could not be so easily ascertained.
Mr. GISBO RN E begged to explain the circumstance to
which the lion. and Learned Member for Great Yarmouth
( Ms. Praed) had alluded. A petition had been put into his
hands from the borough of Great Yarmouth, which he was de-
sirous of presenting, and accompanying with some observa-
zio,,s ; and, as A matter of courtesy, he wrote a note to the
Mernb,2r, his intention to present the petition that
day, if lie liad at, opportunity of doing ,o, and adding that
his mo.s stood in the Speaker's list, and that he was desirous.
on presenting the petition, to make some statement relative to
certain payments alleged to have been made at the last two
elections to the burgesses and freemen of the borough cf
Great Yarmouth. He was prevented from presenting that
petition by the time at which he rose, and he then stated to
the Hon. Gentleman that he would make his statement as a
reply when he had risen to, bring forward the motion of which
he had given notice for that night, but which he had since
handed over to another Hon. Member.
Mr. PRAED had not intended to use the word "threat"
with any want of courtesy. He had not brought forward the
motion to which the Hon. Gentleman had adverted, because
he did not wish that Hon. Gentleman to reply upon him, and
because he certainly should be very sorry to have to reply to
the lion. Gentleman.
Mr. ARTHUR TREVOR said a few words, which were
wholly inaudible in the confusion which prevailed amidst the
loud cries of " Divide," which drowned every other sound.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped he might almost express his be-
lief, without the appearance of egotism, that he was a trne
prophet. He had declared his conviction on the preceding
night, that so much affection had been expressed for the prin-
ciple of the Bill as would ultimately very nearly destroy its
most valuable provisions ; and he really thought his prophecy
would be pretty well accomplished if the amendment were
agreed to. He was really astonished at what had fallen
from the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire, and from
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumberland. Be-
fore the passing of the Reform Bill there existed two species
of franchise ; that arising from property, and that arising,
from municipal rights. By the first Reform Bill the fran-
chise arising from municipal rights was considered so incon-
sistent with the principles of Reform, that it was entirely
abolished. To that first Reform Bill the Noble Lord and the
Right Hon. Baronet were both parties—( Loud cheering)—
and yet these were most valuable rights—most solemn privi-
leges now ; they had heard talk of disfranchising a consi-
derable portion of the people of England. Why, what
had been the improvement in these freemen since the intro-
duction of the first Reform Bill ?—what increase of knowledge
had they displrYed, or what greater sense of the importance of
the function vested in them had they evinced ? They had not
done themselves any very great honour, certainly, before Com-
mittees of that House, and they had in addition the Report of
the Corporation Commission, which distinctly charged them
with having been guilty of the grossest and vilest corruption.
—(Loud cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet had said that
the ground on which the provisions of the Reform Bill were
made so extensive was, that it should not be necessary to in-
crease or extend those provisions at a future period. When
was this declaration made to which the Right Hon. Baronet
adverted ? When, but at the time of his opening speech on
the first Reform Bill—when, but at the very time when these
rights were absolutely annihilated ?—( Cheers. )
Lord STANLEY—It was said by Lord Grey in 1834.
.( Loud cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—It was said in this House in 1831,
and the Minister who brought forward the Reform Bill ex-
pressly stated that the ballot and the shortening the duration
of Parliaments were open questions. The Noble Lord, the
Member for Liverpool, had talked in most patriotic and sympa-
thizing terms of the rights of the poor. Would the Noble Lord
who was so anxious to preserve those rights unimpaired con-
sent to diminish the amount of the elective qualification from
101. to 51. ?--(Loud cheers.) If the Noble Lord would do
this, he would be content to give him some credit for sincerity ;
hut knowing, as he did, how convenient it was, riot to him, but
to others, that freemen should be bought and sold, he could
not give him any very great credit otherwise.—( Hear, hear.)
But what was this franchise which it was now proposed to
create, to be ? Not a municipal one—not one of property,
but a nondescript franchise, which he made the Noble Lord
and the Right Hon. Gentleman a present of, by way of per-
petuating the Reform Bill.—(Cheers.) It was actually
beyond the Reform Bill ; it was subverting the constitution of
England, this frightful anomaly of keeping up a set of men
that might he conveniently bought and sold. He insinuated
no motives ; he charged no purposes. Why ? Because it
was not necessary for him to do so.—( Cheers and a laugh.)
They had heard of a bargain. Bargain 1 With whom ?
(Cheers.) Was that bargain made with the other House—
was it a bargain with the House of Peers ?—( Continued
cheering.) What ought the House of Peers to have done
with the representation of the people in that House? Talk
to him of preserving the Constitution, and of constitutional
principles ; and tell him in the same breath of a bargain made
with the House of Peers I They extorted from that House
their nomination boroughs, in order to give the people the
right of representation ; and what were they told now ? Why,
it seemed a bargain had been made with that same House of
Peers, that they should retain a portion of their power through
the instrumentality of those very freemen ; and the object and
effect of the amendment was to give the Peers—not a direct
power of nomination—but an indirect power of nomination, by
means of the grossest bribery and the worst corruption. The
complaint which was urged was, that the present measure was
an indirect way of getting rid of these voters. The real com-
plaint was, that it was a great deal too direct.—(Cheers.)
When he was reminded of indirection, too, let him ask, could
any thing be more direct than this effort to get rid of one of
the most valuable portions of the Bill ?—( Cheers, and loud
cries of " No," from the Opposition.) He would repeat it.
He asserted that this was an attempt to impair the efficiency
of the Bill to weaken its provisions, to degrade it in the eyes
of the community, to create a new franchise different from that
which existed before, and to convert that which would hare
been the harbinger f peace into only another and more fruit-
ful source of dissension.—( Loud cheers.)
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
Ayes 278
Noes
Majority against the amendment --46
The result was received with loud cheering from the Minis-
terial benches. On our return to the gallery we found
Having been re-admitted into the gallery we found
Mr. A. TREVOR addressing, amid great confusion, the
Committee. The Hon. Gentleman said.that, notwithstanding
the discussion that had taken place, he must still call the at-
tention of the Committee to the clause. He-felt it his duty
to take the sense of the Committee on the amendment of
which he had given notice.--( Cries of " Oh, oh.") He would
never see the rights of any body of men taken unjustly from
them without raising his voice against it. The decision of
the Committee that night could not fail to have a powerful
effect throughout the country.—(lronical cheers from the
Ministerial benches.) Honourable Members opposite might
cheer, but their cheers would show the country who the true
friends of the country were.—( Oh.) The olause was an un-
fair invasion of the rights of a considerable body of men, and
the antiquarian researches of the Hon. and Learned Attorney-
General could not prove the contrary,—( Oh, oh, from the

Ministerial benches.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite would find
that he was not to be deterred by their clamours from
doing his duty to those who sent him to that House. lie
protested against the mode adopted by Hon. Gentlemen
opposite to prevent individuals from expressing their opi-
nions.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Why attack the rights of
the freemen by a sidewind : why not at once bring in a Bill
beginning with " Whereas divers corrupt practices, &c.,
were proved against those freemen ?" Why not bring in a
direct measure of that sort, and say that they should have no
franchise at all ? He had yesterday presented a petition
signed in the space of two hours by 256 of his constituency,
all of whom deprecated this invasion of their rights.—( Ques-
tion.) If the present clause passed there would be an end
to all security for property; there would be an end to justice
and the Constitution—to judges, juries, and executioners.—
( Oh, oh.) If the clause passed it would be as great an act of
spoliation and robbery as if the House took from the Noble
owners of Woburn Abbey their tithes.--( Ob. ) So far from
the interruption proceeding from the opposite side of the
House precluding him from going on it would have a contrary
effect, and rather make him persevere.—( Cheers and Oh, oh,
divide.) The clause was most unjust and nefarious, and if it
were allowed to stand part of the Bill it would be positively
disgraceful to the senate that allowed it to pass.—( Oh, ob.)
If they peimitted it to pass, instead of being the guardians of
the property of the public they would be the plunderers of it.
—(Hear.) Though he should stand alone he would take the
sense of the Committee on the clause, since in so doing he
was pleading the cause of justice and of reason, and discharg-
ing his duty towards his constituency. The Hon. Member
concluded by moving that the clause be omitted.
Mr. H. HUGHES said that he would be unworthy of his
station in that House if he did not protest against the clause,
which went to deprive the freemen and their posterity of their
undoubted right. •
Mr. FE CTOR here rose and moved that the Chairman do

report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Committee had discussed
the clause for a very considerable time, and a division in a very
full House had been come to upon it. He could not see the
necessity of any more discussion upon it, and the only ques-
tion now was that the clause do stand part of the Bill. He
therefore felt it his duty to press the Committee to a division,
if necessary, upon that question, and would do so that night
if the Hon. Member persisted in his motion.
Mr. MACLEAN said a few words in vindication of the
general character of freemen.
Mr. PR AED suggested to the Hon. Member for Durham
(Mr. A. Trevor) the propriety of at present postponing his
motion, since he would have a better opportunity of pressing
it on the bringing up of the Report.
After a few words from Mr. ROBINSON and Colonel Sin-
THORP,
Mr. A. TREVOR was extremely reluctant to withdraw
his amendment, and he only did so because he could take the
sense of the House on the clause on the bringing up of the
Report. In withdrawing his amendment, he would take the
liberty of giving notice that on the bringing up of the Report,
he should move as an amendment that this clause be expunged.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and Mr. Faczoa
withdrew his motion.
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The House resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and
asked leave to sit again.
ISLE OF MAN CORN BILL.
This Bill went through the Committee.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved for leave to bring
in a Bill for the better regulation of Ecclesiastical Courts.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that the Bill was nothing more
nor less than a Doctors' Commons job, and it would be ex-
tremely oppressive to country practitioners. It was brought
in in an underhand way by two Attorneya-General ; it was
warmed and hatched by one, and brought to light by another.
It was a lawyer's job, and their principle always was, " scratch
me, and I'll scratch you."—( A laugh.) He protested against
such a Bill being brought in at that late hour of the night.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the measure bad
been recommended by the Archdeacon of Middlesex, and by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who was Attorney-General
when the Gallant Colonel's polio- al associates were in office.
He, therefore, hoped that kayo would be given to bring in the
Bill.

Sir R. INGLIS made an observation which was not under-
stood in the gallery.
Mr. SCARLETT hoped that proper time would be al-
lowed to consider and discuss the provisions of the Bill.
Mr. SHE IL expressed a wish that a Bill of a similar nature
should be granted to Ireland.
Leave was then granted to bring in the Bill.
Mr. WAKLEY moved that the ballot for entering the
names of Members having public petitions to resent, do take
place half an hour before the time appointed . t Mr. Speaker
taking the chair.
After a brief conversation the motion was ag ed to.
The other Orders of the Day having been d... tosed of, the
House adjourned at One

SHIPPING INTELLIGE) CE.

ADVICES, ARRIVALS, AND DEPAR (HIES AT
THE SCOTCH WHARFS.—Jut 22.
HORS'S DUNDEE AND PERTH STEAM WHARF -Advice: the
Dundee, Perth, and London Shipping Compa, s steam-ship
Perth, John Spink commander, arrived at Dw .43 last Friday
morning, the totli, at ten O'clock.
DOWNS'S WHARF.—No advices or arrive Departure
the Portsoy, Alex. Leask master, for Ports(
MILL2R'S WHARF.—Advice : the Aberd and London
Shipping Company's steam-ship City of berdeen, Alex.
Morison commander, arrived at Aberdeen five o'clock last
Friday morning, after a passage of forty-nine hours, the latter
part of which she encountered a heavy sea, with a strong
breeze of wind from the North. Arrival : the Aberdeen and
London Shipping Company's smack Superior, John Donald
master, from Aberdeen, with a general cargo. No de-
partures.
LEITH AND BERWICK WHARF.—Advices : the London ana,,,
Leith Old shipping Company's smack Lord Wellifigon'
James Nicholson master, sailed from Leith on the 19th int„st';
and the Berwick Shipping Company's smack Ann, WiL"A,.
.- ain
Stevenson master, arrived at Berwick on the 18th inst. "'-
rival : the Berwick Shipping Company's smack Commerce'
William Crow master, from Berwick, with a,general care"-
she sailed on the 19th inst. No departures.