The Sun.
London, England, 1803-05-05 00:00:00

from that atturcs, Secondly, from the MOM taken
to procure these Men into the Royal Navy: It must
',therefore appear td the House manifestly impossible
.for him to say at what preciseatteriod fifty Sail of the
Line would .he ready to go to Sea on aaual Ser.
He did not intend to say' any thing. that
'could have been so construed, and he should have
been .ashamed_ of -having attempted it,- if he had
Mope so. He would not now, because..thisaavas
not the season for it,. state the :number of Ships
,which are ready for Sea • but did Gentlemen know
'how Many were so ? This he would say; idle nein.
her was much greater - than any thing whiCh had
:been of tate generally stated act: 6'6'l'o6llc, and such
;as would gratify the wishes.-of the best friends of this
'Country. a Thirty-two Sail; of the' Line were in
:Comanission in L'riti.h • Potts:. more information
:would be given in a few days. The Admiralty had
used no.meanethat Were not justifiala:e in procuring
ven therihadbithertotad rtcourse to none but the
'most Moderate means ; but let it ruit be,supposed that
because men west not procured, they were therefore.
hot- Iftncurable thellouse Wbutti learn that the
ertinns of the Admiralty to procure naan, had hither.
to had a stria regard to thrinteresta of Commerce,
they had wisela• proportioned their. exertions ..to the
emergency of the Public Service on thi one has;,
rind the interests of Trade and Merchandiie on the
Other. They had not hitherto pressed any from
Protedinns, nor bad the Commerce of the Country
been, in the least degree, interrupted. Gentlemen
should recoiled,. that the scale now' was greatlk`al-
tered from what it was in former years in this par.
'dollar. In roamer times it was thutight a great ex.a
ertion to raise from r 6,000 to 20,000 Seamen ; but
we were to raise from 346,000* to sa,ooo
men,.w hick was a very great differenCe-of cortarira.'
tive exertion. He observed, however, there wai,
no remissness in the present_ service ; on the con.
• tiny, greater exertion than at any, former time,-.of
the sit length; and by much more moderate-means,.
and hettet regaid to the interests of Trade, than On
any former occasion. Ile was aware' that he had
Bane mote into particulars, on this occasion,. than
,perhaps Was warranted by strict regularity,- and by
which he had fallen into the course which he bad re.
gretted to have been done. by other's. His apology
was, that he. was %lesuops to, set the matter'riglit,
and to assure the House, there .Was no period for
which he was more anxious than the lay when'he
• should have it in his power to.bring forward a car.,
tea. Statement on this part of the Public Service, as
well a's that of endeavintring to do justice to every
Member of His Majesty's GoVernment, as well as
himaelf, upon the discharge of, their Public Duty,
in this and every other branch of the Public Service.
should then bring for ward certain taapics with
more satisfaction than he' was at present able to de.
scribe. No looger time than was absolutely neees.
sdry would be taken to bring forward these topics,
when, Ile was confidenta they would undergo a full
and perfea discussion. For the present, he appae.
!tended, that his lion. Friend behind hint, had.given
to the. House an explanation that was. perfealy 'sa-
tisfaCtiary. He had now only to say, that instead
of proposing to negative the Motion now before the
Home, he should move the Order of the Day.
CANNING obserted, that the Honourable'
Baronet had at present received a
,satisfaaory
swer to his Motion, and probably, if such an an..
awes had been given formerly to his Question, as
had now been given to his- Motion, the House
would not have been troubled with the present
diseussiOn; but there was one point in 'which it
appeared to him that his .Honourable Friend had: net
.had justice done hima-he was represented as 'terse.:
veriog in this matter with Out necessity, When, in
point of faa, his Motion arose front his not having
had an answer to a question which he had put on
former'oce:tsiOO. His Honourable Friend was re.
,presented, as imputing blame to the Commissioner§
under the Bill tur iiiquiry into abuses" in the Navy;
now if there was any one thing,More remarkable
than another in, theacoUrse of what he said with
,perfed 'fairness on this.necaifon, it was that of •a
stualbaui assurance to the alionae, that he did not.
blame the CominissiOners, and lie thought it int.
possible to accuse. his Honourable Friend an that
ground. He understood the Motion merely pre.
paratery to an inquiry into ,the subject by the
House, after teeeiaing whatever iolormation whieh
should be conveyed by the Report This Coin.
mittee Was appointed before Christmas, on an alle,
gallon that great abuses prevailed in the civil de.
partments of the Noy, and.so urgent and crying
were these abuses stated to be; that the Bill ;was
past, he would' not say improperly, . but. in: a .very
littaitrd time, cOnsitiering the Constitutional Pt in—
_ciples Which it ihvolVed. Parliamept, however,
concurred in' passing it thus raphily„ under a-cony
vin iona that the ;thaws were, so.styiagratliat they
o
must Mat, be: allowed to pass vefahe,holidaysratud'
one argument theft`, roaticcuse of by way of -aapaliatre
to the gill' aaaa, that if it did notapAgfaelle,
the 'a:great, deal, of,, gtiii(;would,4y.
off and escape from punishment: Now he .woulth
ask,
,Imd any man fled to escape punishMent ILA
Mt. Taylor fled,aor whom Sao much had been said;
and who had'. been so treated On the contrary;
as a' plata that, lie had no occasion to fly, or. to
fear; hi was even now re-itiveated with his eoni.
train. . There was, therefore, 'attend of that argu-:
meat of the neceasity of -the meavire, for the puro
pose of .providing against the flight of Guilt. 'flit
ohjeet. of his Hon. Friend by the present mationa,
he otidetstood to be this—that as the Bill gaveato
these Commissioners an extraordinary and anoma..a
louts power, and applied an extramdinary remedy,
'and nothing but the :extent, ofaabuse stated as the
copse of it% he wished to kntawa what was done by •
that Contuturee, that was .toaaaya: to knoW what
t4se the Commiitee had made: of. such power ? And
he owned he could:. not. think it. W4s unworthy the
kelinga a Member, of Parliament to .expreSsaa
wish for tech information, in order that the useof
this extraordinary power might appear to the House,
and that the. Hausa might see how it had been apa
plied; in order that his. Hon. Friend, and every
other Member who had 'supported the Bill, might-
stinad well with himself fur having assented to such
tr,-;asure. If'so much, 40: such
.extraordinary,
wort er was givcn, wEi.it too much for a Member
of Parliatitent to ask:, how :tuft power had bean
empleyed AT S that, an. inquiry which was
worthy a A'i.i4ol,l;qlo: 44 40,41i'

Friend was charged with going' into particulars:,
upon this .occasion,- before the Repel was' brettzhe
forward. On a former occasion, when he asked
for the-Report of the COmMittee, he received no.,
answer; and as one head of the Report rilkSt
then have been- nearly ready, as appeared:by-
the itateuient of an Hanour'ible Member of.
the Committee, that might have been stated to
his HOn. Friend, 'and then he was confident that he
would not have gone into particulars before he saw.'
that Report. Another' point on which his Hon.
Friend was justified in calling for the Report, -, was
this when. this Committee was instituted, the
House was Impotually warned by Ministers to con.
Sider that ‘!se ,iykre in a state of profound Peace,
,and
whtn,,itee4nte, no possible injury could be felt by
probing into abuses which had crept into our aVirs
in the course of a long War; and this argument must
be truppoied to have great weight, (rani such
authority, for it was possible that a measure might
be laudable in time of Peace, and yet infinitely clan-
gerous even to be tried in time of War, In time of
War, it was possible to feel abuses, and yet we
should nit attempt to remove them.. Mr. Taylor
gorhis coneiniCl again--=Why ? Because that which
was intended to supply his place was not ready.—
What did that prove, but•that Members of Govern-
mew began to destroy, before they had provided.
means. for subititution. He would ask, if that was.
the ~situation in which it was wise ,to pla& us ?-t:--,
and' was a man to be rebuked after Wards for doing
nothing, but' his `duty, by. calling on the House to
examine into the manner in which power so obtain.
ed, had been:exercised. ,1t was very possible that
the Bill under which these Commissioners aned,
was nneant for Peace and not for War--4te was not
saying that was the case—but it was possible, and
that was a 'question fit for discussion, and his Hon.
Friend was now not only justified, but lie was. per.
forining a laudable 'dtity in calling the attention of
Parliament to a sobjed of so much importance:—
nor wit this all, his.llonourable 'Friend would have
been justified 'in taking the course he did—
although none of these reasons existed. He would have
been justified upon the principles of Humanity and she
feelings yfaigeetleman in calling for an account of.
the manner in which this power had been exercised,
if he had .ordy conceived that Mr. Taylor was an
•ioi v idual. Be saw nothing discreditable
to his Hon. Friend in bringing this matter for Ward,
even if it appeared that he had no other motive but
that of vindicating the charaCter of at intlividasi.
Whom he had thought ill-treated ; why then, his Hon.
Friend was justified in calling. the attention of the
House to the Subjea on the feelings of common Hume-
nits,. He was justified in doing so from the civility
of a Gentleman, a point which no Gentleman would
dispute, and as a Member of Parliament not-only
was lie justified in what he.did, but he was laudably
performing a laborious task.- The conduct of -the'
Adiniralry was not in question now, nor-need it
'have-been brought into this debate, in the course of
which, without any reference to any personal gees-
tiOn, it appeared that persons who mean to speak on
one side, might,happen tosontraditi each other, and
this had been the fad tonight in this debatebetween
his Hon. Friend behind him (Captain MARCHA•M)
and the Right Hon. Gentle'man upon the floor (the
CtinNcELioa of the Excnvqtrei). The Right
• lion. Gentleman had- said, that with regard to the
preparations of the Navy of this Country, it; is,
in point of. Tad, in'a greater state of preparation
than on the apprehension of hostilities at the be-1
ginning .of the last War. That was not the ques-
tion ;..but the question was, whether, with reference
to the comparative establishments at both periods,
more ,had been dOne now than had been done then
in the same length of time, to put this Country in
0 proper state of preparation for hostilities ? The
Right Hon. Gentleman had said, .that when he said
Fifty Sail of the Line meant -for service would..be
ready in a, month, on an emergency, he did not
mean that they should be adually fit for sea, be-
cause they might. not- be Manned in that. time. He
would , not' Contradid the preient statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, but the way in which he
aecOunted'for having deceiVed himself by hearing
the statement was this : The Right Hon. Gentle-.
man hat) said on that occasion, the men were more
easily '6lloeitdow than thee were
_formerly, be-
eausetherihie now distributed in frigates, and
that therefore the shipS might be equipped in a
shorter rinse than formerly. This was the reason
alledged by Right Hon: Gentleman, why we
could fit out so sail of the line withirtio short a-
:time upon an emergency, and this could not for-
merly be done. How that themen might-be brought
together, and in forrn aldree sufficient to fit up a
,fleet of so sail of the iine he could understand, and.
that',wits the sense in which he coMprehended, or
thought he comprehended, the assertions of the Right
Hon. Gentleman upon that subjea. But how fn's.
gates can be. Changed into large ships of the line, he
-owned he did not understand, fic could not under.
stand how frigates .could be changed, into ships
GE 'the line,- but he could conceive how the men
taken outof a great number of.frigates, werebrought
together, and put,, on board ships of the -line ; and
this was the only .way in which he hoped to atone
for the misconception he had formed of the assertion
of the Right Hon. Gentleman. What he had heard
to night, excited hisastonishinent, and hemust now
beg that the King's Message of the Bth of March
be now, read.

[The Message was read in part..." His Majesty thinks it
necessary to acquaint the. House of Commons that very con.
siderable military preparations are carrying on in the ports
of r a Holland,
Mr. awl HuWL]
Mr. CANNING proceeded t he said, that was
enough for him. It was now far the first time that
the Houke jbadheard, from the hest authority, from-
one of the:-1,004s of the Admiralty, that there was
no preparation.in the Ports of France and Holland.
, Until to-day the House bad been led to believe there
were considerable preparations carrying on in the
Ports of France and Holland.—But now we had a
plain assertion from one of the Lords of the Admi-
ralty, directlyu
conadiding the whole of the most
material sentence in the Messagefrom the King. In
the very teeth of all our ahem, a Gentlematy from
the Admiralty told the House there was no foundt.
don for any part of it, for that we had nothing
to
oppose but a few fishing boats. This was an
aAreeable snrprize, and he had trio high an opinion
lon. Friend, rapt. 1;4 ANt's vigilance,
19 4441 .cik; €41(43/44-0- of i iqurnl44n4 and too I

!P•
tli an opinion of his veracity, for an instant to sus.
PSct the truth of his assertion—too high an opinion
• of his integrity to susped that he would attempt td
delude the House. If not, then the question would-
! be, Who have deluded the House ? On what pre.
tence was that Message sent ? If the suite.
went of his Hon. Friend (Captain MARKII:01)t
Was corred, be believed he understood the case a
little, and thi .it
r was not difficult to judge Why
the House had no information. The Report of the
Committee wdold" soon
,be made, and then the
House would take the matter of it into considera-
tion. The material questions which would arise on'
it- would --be, -nor ..only whether the CommissfortetV-.
! had exercised their powers prorrly or not ? bolt
also, -Whether this Measure did more good than.
harm t'or whether, which was a poisible ease, in.
stead of redressing grievances, it had been applied
to the oppression of a worthy individual, and ex-
ercised to the detriment of the State ?
Mr. -FOX said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
who spoke last must perceive that no motion had.
beenjnide at present upon the conduct of the Board
of Admiralty : if that subjeel should come'under.
discussion, be had such a perfeil reliance upon the
high character of the Noble Person who presided:
ovtr that Board, that. he had no doubt but that .5
complete anti sufficient answer would be given to
any charges that' might be brought 'forward. It
was erytainly.natural to. wish, that upon a point of
great- public importance the fleuse should have
formation upon the subjio,• but it was impoisibte
sometimes ,to have information simply, and at the:
same- jime justly, because information to be satin.4clory must embrace all the pointS conneeled With,
lie. was perfeet4, convinced of the good into-
tion-of the present Board of Admiralty ; by good
intention, he meant not only .the disposition, but
the ability to reform:and root out the abuses which
were knoWit to exist in parts of the Naval Service,
He trusted that in the prosecution of this Brest
work, the Board of Admiralty would not suffer
themselves to be intimidated by the clamours or in.
sinuations which were thrown out against them 11
Jobbers, nr by persons who were interested! in con-.
rinuing those abuses. Strong powers were certain-
ly given to the Commissioners. by the Bill which.
had been alluded-to: he certainly was not a frierid
to vesting strong powers in any persons ; but if L:
were to.give them in any case, it wound be when'
they were folic used to effeet reforms in the abuses
of the State. He had seen instances in which let*
mer Administrations had been anxious -Lyon all oe.
!easions to take strong measures against the Suh,fett
and it would be too much now if they were to re.
fuse strong powers, which were to be exercised fa
the benefit of the Subjeel. This certainly was ling.!!
tote time for'entering into any discussion uponthe
Armament; he could nor, however, help exrresiieg
his surprise at what had fallen, front an. Hon,
Helium (Captain MARKHAM) upon that subjea, even
thoUgli the 'Hon. Member's opinion upon that sob-
jeft agreed with his own. The words of di,. Met.
.sage certainly were Military Armaments; nuivtlx"
,word Military' Was certainly sometimes .used •in
contradistintlion to Naval; but When the subjeet
came to be inquired into, it would make very
',tie ttifreeence in .what :.ense the wotd
itooa. lie had merely risen. to state hi, i'r,rifro'r
confidence in the ability of the present either
line, as men!
`Admiralty to carry- the reforms into dal)
in time of Peace or War. ".A that
.Cay,terin itIARKITAM, in explanation 01-1
-When he spoke of the respeetive !Naval' ;Foricte:ll,
certairlly!, nurstepped
Ibis Country, and of that which he mUstsq°l ,
to
atural. Enemy, he
sometimes used strong extressi
with.!;ot eiothiog to be held to the striet lett'erile
them: Perhaps, too, it might be a little allotvao
to Gentlemen of. his profession to hold the Naoic
Power of France In m contept, and it was in thtfts
view that he spoke-of the Navy! of France, end
begged tiprefer to the History of the last Wart ana
it would be found that he had not much outstePr
the bounds of truth, when he called the NavY °
France mere Fishing.boats. He did not 110Y,tubt rig
were no Armaments in the Ports of France and "do
land, 'but he hoped he should always be able !"!
speak of thein with the same contempt.
Sir HENRY IifILDMAY. said, .the CHANCO4
Loa of the EXCH4QUeR had made useofwordstall
coming from him, which he did not use; he did I°l
recalled having called the Gentlemen, compoiTEP,
the Board of Admiralty, parsimonious charafters•
.T,lie CHANCELLOR of 'the ExcitaQuls
plainer!.
Me. LEICESTER 'said he was sorry that the
Commissioners'
Comsioners have not been able to giv'
Hot4e the result of their inquiry respeeting 1'1"
.abuses in His Majesty's
.Navy, before this tuns_
but .heionid assure the Ron. Baronet that the, R
port should be laid before the House as early as P°s'

,
4tbie.
Sir H.
- M then withdrew his .r,
Tile Load neoe A a of Scotland moved for love. 17
tfring,:iii a Bill to increase the income! of Schoolniast-nji
Scotland. On leave being granted, his Ltudsiiir,
that the; Rouse doge into a COmmittee on the Said
rytorning;, which was agreed to. th 4
, The Cif A NCE,LLOR Of the EKcasoutit proN-- u
Cv""Nc G°RDONi Esq. be added to the CoMintave,
pointed to eonsider the Bill relative to the Highlands. of zcv-
land.. ° t 4
hi• " tin
r: L.i ion moved the Order of the Day fpr ttheLi
go into a Commitice on the Irish Courts ot LaW Bill. . the
kr: Ls t.,then, entered into a long explattatioll'°l the
nature of 'the Courts- of Law in i relanct, and urge"
advantage the. Bill would be of to the peOple of that Cottabo
try, as it would tend to shorten the delay, and lestenire,
ex pence.. which has for centuries attended Law-suits. 111
. also pointed Out the necessity or granting a lith
• per coinpensarion to persons holding Offices during lifck rn
to
the power of introducing a Clause to grant a
thOse persons who only. hold Places %luring pleasure. - tojr
Tile,sprAicrit intarrned the HOO. the reg
way of proceeding agreeable to the rules of the. , •
Mr.'A LL,CANOtft said a few wordS. •
Tr. s 1.11 also spoke o the question• • /bg
Strangers were then ordered towsithdra w ;Out as •
could not divide for want of surficient number "'
bers, it of course adjourned.
ceolnpensati

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