The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-20 00:00:00

the House has no such object in view. - It would be a most
ungracious task—and I should be extremely sorry if the Hon.
Gentleman opposite should force us into it—to give a negative
of affirmation ; but as it is not implied that he has any inten-
tion of submitting a plan for legislating upon the subject I
cannot see how—indeed it seems to me impossible—the House
can affirm the assumption contained in the motion now before
it. He asks the House to affirm that which, if it is in earnest
to do, it cannot do until it has an assessment of all the pro-
perty in Ireland. Instead of this unsatisfactory method of
proceeding, I should propose that some such resolution as
this should pass the House, " That leave be given for the
Hon. Member for Clare to bring in a Bill to improve the state
of the poor in Ireland."—( Laughter.) It is not usual to
embody the whole conception of a Bill and confine it to one
clause. But in this case the House is asked to do something
worse. The motion now before us says let the House of Com-
mons at once and without delay carry certain resolutions re-
lating to the poor of Ireland into effect. I say, in return, let
us 'know the details on which you would found those resolu-
tions, for all resolutions I presume it will, be admitted must
have some details to go upon. The Hon. Gentleman says he
would have assessment : now he would ask him what he means
by that ? Does he mean that he would assess all the real property
in the country, would he assess all the personal property, or does
he intend that it shall be a parochial assessment? It has been said
by the Hon. Member for Cork,who has been watching his motion
with a painful and prentaal anxiety—(vhy, he is not here said
the Right Hon. Baronet, looking across the table in a tone
and manner that created great laughter)—however, that Hon.
Member had said that on a former occasion I got up and pro-
posed that a Commission should be issued to inquire into the
state of the poor laws in every country in Europe. The fact
is that I had been listening to a very unprofitable debate, and I
did suggest to the then Government that a Commission should
be issued to inquire into the subject, and which Commission at
my suggestion was issued accordingly. That was two years
ago ; and I must say that I did hope we should have been pos-
sessed of the result of that inquiry long before this time.—
( Hear, hear.) All matters connected with local interests and
peculiarities were to be inquired into by the Commissioners ap-
pointed ; and I must say that instead of forcing resolutions
upon the House, instead of complaining generally of delay,
it would be more logical and more according to the forms
of this House, to move a resolution that the Commissioners
do report forthwith. This may be done, or the affair may
be left in the hands of the Government, who will lose no
time in urging the completion of the necessary report. If
the Commissioners were to report now they will have to
leave many of the minor details incomplete—such as the
number and character of infirmaries and other - establish-
ments of a charitable nature. If inquiries into the greater
branches of the subject were completed, I' see no reason
why the report should not be speedily laid before the
House, and I have no doubt my Right Hon. Friend the Se-
cretary for the Home Department would lay before the House
any information in his power upon the subject.—( Hear.)
But to the present proposition I see every objection. The
Hon. Member for Tipperary speaks of the helpless poor.
Why, who are the helpless poor? It is a vague phrase.
Every child not capable of earning bread by its own labours
might be included in that definition. The motion states
" that it is expedient to make a provision for the aged, help-
less, and infirm poor of Ireland." Now really, Sir, I think
that nothing can be more unwise than for us to be called upon,
to affirm so general a proposition as this. We are called upon
to affirm a general proposition, without understanding out of
what circumstances that proposition arises. Who are the in-
firm ? It would be difficult to draw the distinction between
infirmity arising from age or deformity, and that which is the
result of stinted food. Without defining your exact meaning
you open the door, Sir, to every description of imposition, to
every degree of poverty; nay, Sir, I fear, to claims for relief
from three-fourths of the population of Ireland. Is it not,
then, of the utmost primary importance for us to arrive at de-
tails before we attempt to enter into resolutions. I admit the
importance of administering relief to the poor willing to work,
but I cannot, on that account, admit the advantage of assessing
all the property in Ireland. If that plan were to be adopted
without a true regard to all the owners of landed property in
Ireland, and without taking into consideration existing incum-
brances, I should think it nothing less than substituting an
Agrarian law for the present existing law of real property.
One Hon. Gentleman opposite has pressed this resolution on
rather novel grounds, viz., that of teaching the Irish people
to eat. I will venture to say that if we can find them with
the means of procuring food we may leave unassisted nature
to prompt them as to the way to eat it.—( Laughter.) The
Hon. Baronet concluded by saying that he trusted, as a
Commission had been appointed at a great public expense,
and had been in existence now two years, and that he had
reason to believe they had collected sufficient facts to enable
the House to form a judgment upon the subject, and that, as
be thought, to affirm a proposition under such circumstances
would be treating the subject with a degree of unbecoming
levity, that the Hon. Gentleman opposite would not press his
resolution to a division.—( ljear.)

After a few words from Mr. FINN and Mr. WYSE,
Mr. O'BRIEN said that, after the agreeable turn the dis-
cussion had taken, and the tone adopted by the Right Hon.
Baronet, he thought he should prejudice the cause he was
desirous of promoting if he were to persevere. He should
'gladly see the whole subject in the hands of the Government,
and should, with great pleasure, act upon the suggestion
thrown out, more particularly as he was given to understand
that the evidence of the Commissioners would be laid on the
table of the House.

The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn.
QUEEN ANNE'S BOUNTY.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY was willing to postpone the discus-
sion on his motion for a Committee to inquire into the reve-
nues and appropriation of Queen Anne's Bounty, as it would
probably be more convenient after another report had been
laid upon the table similar to that presented that day from the
Ecclesiastical Commission ; but he was desirous of knowing
how speedily a second report might be expected, and whether
they would in any way relate to the subject of Queen Anne's
Bounty ?
Sir R. PEEL said that it was quite true that in the course
of the evening such a report had been piesented from the Ec-
clesiastical Commissioners, which referred to matters of con-
siderable importance, and that there would be a second ; but
whether or not there would be more he could not take upon
himself to say. Other matters were bow6ver to be proceeded
in, and among others the subject of Queen Anne's Bounty
would be included.. He thought, therefore, the Hon. Gen
tleman would act wisely to postpone his motion until be was
in possession of the information upon that subject.
Mr. D. :VV. HARVEY withdrew his motion accordingly
until the 28th of April, and as he had, on that day given no-
tice for a motion to inquire into the Pension List, on which'
occasion he had intended to move a call of the House, but
which he had been given to understand might be inconvenient
to Hon. Members, who might not have returned from the
country, he should postpone that motion, and the call until the
7th of May.