The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-28 00:00:00

sex had no relation_ to the army estimates. It was clearly
and immediately connected with the subject, and the proper
time for him to bring it forivard was before the army esti
mates were disposed of. He could assure the Right Honour.
able Gentlerean opposite that his (Mr. Ellice's) mind was as
unsettled as his own upon the subject of separating the civil
Irom the military functions of the Secretary at War and the
Commander-in-Chief, and he had a decided objection to a
separation between the engineers and the artillery. But, after
all, the question must come and be finally settled where the
control over the military expenditure of the country shall be
placed. He would not now sayanything on the subject, or
whether that control ought to rest with the Commander Lin
Chief or the Board of Ordnance, as the responsible hands.
With respect to the army estimates themselves, there were
only two parts of them to which objection had been made,
namely, the staff of the Horse Guards, and some allowances
to the Foot Guards. Upon these subjects he should be most
happy to give his best assistance to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, in bringing them to a satisfactory issue. As
to the staff, there was one point to which he wished to allude.
It was his opinion that all officers should be eligible, and have
an equal chance of succeeding to the staff appointments
by rotation ; but is those appointments at present stood
they were a perfect monopoly in the hands of only a few
officers, many of whom held them for a number of years.
There was one appointment of this kind of which he knew hint-
self as having been held by the same individual for 22 years,
and. he could the more fairly allude to this monopoly inasmuch
as it was held by a friend of his own. The alteration which he
suggested upon this subject did not conic from himself; it
was the recommendation of the Committee that had been ap-
pointed to inquire into the matter that this alteration should
be made. NVith respect to the Ordnance Department, it was
notorious that one-half of the Ordnance stores that heti been
most wantonly collected were perfectly useless; and if they
could not be sold for anything it would be far better to give
them away thtlifi-to keep them any longer. He would recent-
mend his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) to give a fresh notice of
his motion for a future dny, so that the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite might have sufficient time to give it all due considera-
tion. The present was not an occassion in which the House
could show its want of cenfidence in his Majesty's Ministers,
however strongly they might feel that want ; because the
House could never think of disturbing the whole military sys-
tem of the country by refusing to renew the Mutiny Act, or
by hesltatieg to vote the necessary supplies for paying the sol
diers. Before- many days elapsed; the House would have
plenty of opportunities of showing wilat 'degree of Confidence
his Majesty's Ministers possessed from.—(Clik e -s from the Op-
position.) The sort of confidence they possessed had already
been shown of late in some instances. It seemed that on any
que-tion brought before the House, whatever might be the
subject, it only required the opposition of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters to insure its being carried.—( Cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) How a Government might exist while night after
night it was left in minorities, was a problem that yet remained
to be solved by the Ri.:ht Hon. Gentleman opposite. The
question of the Irish Church must be settled, and the Right
Hon. Gentleman would then see what confidence was placed
in him by the House or the country.---(Cheers from the Op-
position.)
Mr. H ft; RRIE S should- only advert to one charge made
against himself individually by the Right. Hon. Gentleman.
He meant that of having last year interrupted the Army Es-
timates by some motion about timber. He could assure his
Right Hon. Friend, if he would allow him so to call him, that
he never was guilty of that interruption. He certainly did,
on one occasion of the sort introduce a motion on the subject
of the Russian-Dutch loan ; but he did so with the full con-
sent of the Member's of the Government, whom he had spoken
with on the subject. He hoped he might conclude from what
had passed that the Hon. Member for Middlesex did not now
intend to persevere in his motion, or was he to understand that
the Hon. Member acquiesced in the advice that had been given
to him ?

Mr. HUME did not intend to persevere in it now, although
nothing that fell from the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had
in the least altered his own opinion ; but as some of his friends
around him considered that his pehevering in his motion
might be taken to be a wish to stop the necessary supplies for
the payment of the army, he felt himself bound to give way
to their judgment, in order to show that no difference of opi-
nion existed amongst them on that side of the House.—( Hear,
hear, and laughter from the Ministerial side.) As the Right
Hon. Baronet had promised to give the House his opinion on
a future day upon the propriety of appointing a Committee or
a Commission he (Mr. Hume) should withdraw his present
motion, and give notice for that day week of a substantive
motion on the subject, which would not at all interfere with
the regular course of proceeding on the 'Army Estimates.
Sir R. PEEL—What I promised was that I would read the
report, or at least all the evidence taken before the Committee,
and that with the least possible delay I would give my views to
the House as to the appointment of a Commission, or what
other course, if any, should be pursued upon the subject. I
would suggest to the Hon. Gentleman the possible inconveni-
ence of naming so early a day as this day week for his motion,
because there 7411- be a heavy debate on Monday, which may
probably be adjourned.
Mr. HUME, for the reason mentioned by the Right Hon.
Baronet, should name Monday week for bringing on his motion.
. _

Mr. WARD said that in ibe notice of motion which he had
given it never was his intention to interfere with the Secretary
at War in bringing forwald the estimates, and he could assure
the Right Hon. Baronet that he did not give notice - of that
motion front any factious motives whatever ; but he did feel
strongly that L.eland ought to be so governed, and such an al-
teration made in the condition and establishments of that coun-
try, as would permit of a large reduction of the standing army.
—(Cheers from the Opposition.) If on the motion of Monday
next the House should record its solemn decision in favour of
that motion, he for one, if he was to walk out of the House
alone, would never again consent to vote for the military Go-
vernment of Ireland the number of men that were required
under the present system in that country. He should not now
further interfere, but should hold himself at liberty to adopt
what course he pleased on bringing up the report. The Hon.
Gentleman then withdrew his motion.

.....
On the motion of Mr. HERRIES, the House went into a Com-
mittee of Supply.
ARMY ESTIMATES.

Mr. HERRIES said, the Committee were already aware
of the peculiar circumstances under which the present Go-
vernment acceded to office, and the very recent period at
which that circumstance took place left no time or opportunity
to enter on a revision of the Army Estimates, so as to justify
the bringing forward of any other than those already prepared
by the Government that preceded the present. He did not at
all advert to this part of the subject for the purpose of taking
credit to the present Government, or withholding credit for
the late Government, for any reduction made in the estimates;
neither was it his purpose to divest himself or those with
whom he acted of all the responsibility that belonged to them ;
for he wished it to be clearly understood that the present esti-
mates were such as the present Government, after full consi-
deration, entirely approved and resolved upon ; and there was
no disposition to give to the late Government all the credit
that was due to them for those parts which they had already
matured. The estimates as they now stood were the result
of considerable revision of the whole subject by several Hon.
Gentlemen who had filled the office of Secretary at War suc-
cessively, and to none was more credit due for his zeal and
ability he brought to the subject than his Right Hon. Friend
near him ( Sir H. Hardinge) while he held that office. Re-
peated Committees too had sat upon the subject, two of which
were appointed in the last year, end from these Committees
suggestions of great value had proceeded, particularly as to
the financial part of our military system. To all those sugges-
tions due attention had been paid in the preparation of the es-
timates. The subject of the first resolution he should propose
to the Committee was the nutriber of men that would be re-
quired this year for the military establishments of the country.
Last year the number was 88,000, but by the present estimates
that number was'redueed to 81,271 men, all that would be re-
quired for the service of the present year. This diminution was
effected net by reducing the general establishment, but by a
reduction of the men in each company. He did not anticipate
any opposition to the number of men he thus proposed for the
service of the year. Indeed it would not be possible to have
the military portion of the public service performed with a less
establishment, considering our extended dominions, our colo-
nies, and foreign possessions in all parts of the world. The
British soldier had much to endure, even with this supply, for
on the average he was compelled to be ten years at a time an
exile from his own country. The Committee had considered
with the closest regard to reduction, how far the garrison esta-
blishments of the country could be diminished, but they were
only enabled to point out very few instances in which they
could recommend reduction, having respect to the interests of
the public service. The same Committee was again appointed,
and was pursuing its labours with the utmost diligence. In
framing the present estimates attention had been paid to all the
recommendations of the Committee of last year.
The CHAIRMAN having read the resolution, "That
81,271 men be voted for the service of the year,"
Sir S. WHAL LE Y rose to protest against so large a stand-
ing army in time of profound peace as 81,000 men, when one-
fourth of that army was employed, not in protecting the country
against foreign invasion, but to support a vast Protestant esta-
blishment in Ireland, where the great mass of the people were
not Protestants.—( Cries of " Oh, oh.") Gentlemen might
cry " Oh," as they pleased, and might cry every letter of the
alphabet.—(" Oh, oh," and laughter.)
Colonel CONOLL Y could pot conceive how the Hon.
Member could flatter himself that the people of England
would swallow his statements, so destitute as they were of any
foundation. _ _ _

Major BEAUCLERK would, at the present stage of the
proceedings, propose a reduction of the infantry by 7,000
men, and when the vote came to the cavalry force, he should
also propose to strike off a certain number from each regiment.
He begged the Committee to call to mind, that the cavalry force
was sent nowhere but to India, and yet twenty-two regiments
of cavalry were kept up, though they were of no use to the
country. The expense of one regiment of cavalry was more
than double those of a regiment of infantry, and a cavalry
force was less effective in preserving the public peace. If the
House did not accede to his proposition, the country would
feel that the, Tory and Whig parties were inattentive to the
wants of the people, that were, crying loudly for a reduction
of the taxes. He believed that the country was regardless of
which of the two parties were in power ; all they wanted was
a relief from their burdens. The Hon. and Gallant Member
concluded by moving, " That the proposed vote of 81,271 men
should be reduced by 7,000."

The amendment having been put,
Sir J. BYNG supported the original motion.
Mr. HERRIES maintained that the recruiting service was
reduced so low that it was hardly sufficient to keep up the
efficiency of regiments, particularly iu India and in foreign
stations.

Alajnr BEAU CLE RK explained.
Sir H. PARNELL begged the Committee to reflect
that it was called upon to vote this large number of forces