The Sun.
London, England, 1835-02-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 1835.

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SUN OFFICE, Seven o'clock.

THE PARLIAMENT.
THIS AFTERNOON, THURSDAY.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Lord F. EGERTON'S Speech concluded from our First Edition—
From this great occasion of the meeting of the House, it be-
comes us to approach the elee'cion of a. Speaker with calm de-
liberation, and also one who, on account of his tried ability
and experience, is most adapted to conduct the business of the
House with that judgment and discretion with which it has
been Hear, hear.) I do regret that it has be-
come imperative on me to address you on this ques-
tion, or that it should not meet with that unanimity
Vaich I think it so well deserves. I do regret, for my own
'part, that these circumstances should be likely to place us in
opposition to many Hon. Gentleman with whom I have been
on terms of the greatest intimacy, and whom I know, esteem,
and regard so much, not as I conceive on one of those ques-
tions of great political interest, or of great political
discussion, but cue on which, Ilan-tent to think, that their ener-
gies should be lavished and abused, and that it may thereby
tend to the collision of parties for whom I entertain marked
feelings of friendship and respect.—( Hear, hear.) At the
mime time, I do not think that I shall have to hear
any a' those motions which imply opposition against the
motiem which I have the honour to submit to the House,
founded on any of these charges of notorious absurdity
vinich have found their way into circulation in other quarters,
rand which, for the last few days, have been before the atten-
tion of the public. I do not think that I shall meet with
any of those absurd calumnies which have found their
war into notice from publications such as the " Mirror of
Fa'shion," and some others which I do not feel myself
called upon to name—some of those publications,
-which gain their mysterious information by tracking out
scenes of private life, and reducing them to those
purposes which they understand so well. I do not think that
shall have to contradict any of those unfounded imputations,
that the opposition which will be raised against my Right
enourable Friend will place its claims en such a source,
but on the contrary that the opposition is to be rested on a great
public principle—,Tremendous cheering from the opposition
benches.) I shall content myself by resting his claims on the
good sense of this House, and on the known integrity, talent,
and courtesy with which he has conducted its business hitherto.
The Noble Lord whom I believe I may salute as the intended.
leader of this House—(Loud cheers from the ope:-.„tti„)
whether self-elected—( Reiterated cheers from th::, AiLitttrial
Benches)—or whether enlisted under the bmili„„F
the Opposition—amid the clash o ueaverig, and party
strife, I do not know ; but appears he is to be
the champion of the party ov",r whom one shout alone predo-
minates, decidedly the snout of a populace, which as yet has
been so obscured, that I, am left to conjecture about its origin; but
-which has been prnsmulgated on the hustings to admiring con-
stituents—the principle of condemnation without trial._
(Cheers fronn the Ministerial Benches,re-echted by the Oppo-
sition.) if this be the principle which is to flash conviction on
the clubting, to fix the waverer, and to reinstate the phalanx
which by various accidents has been somewhat disbanded,
I trust those Hon. Gentlemen who support that principle
will be able to speak to this House, and to carry that principle
into effect without violation of their own consistency, and within
the spirit of the principle which on the last Occasion they
raised very eloquent voices to combat and repudiate ; namely,
to repudiate political considerations, and the estimation of poli-
tical opinions on the individual who was to be called to the
chair ; but to set aside all other corsiderations of talent, fitness,
ability, experience, and even of what may be new to the ear
of some gentlemen, considerations of public utility, Before I
aniclude the observations I have taken the liberty of address-
ing to the House upon the motion which I am to make, I mat
beg to:express my confidence that I have avoided any expression
-which may appear to be clothed with disrespect to any Gen-
tleman who has been named by public report as a candidate
for the office. With regard to the Hon. Gentleman enee
is likely, as we understand, to be proposed to this House as
Speaker, certainly, whatever may be the opinion, entertained
by this House, or by his frieuds, he is, at least, so
far superior to me in every respect, and Commands the
deference of this House in such a manner, that it would
very ill become me ever to question his fitness for that
office in any one particular ; and I beg to es:press
to him that honest feeling of respect and &Terence
which I will not say he himself might exmstn, but the nicest
sensihility of his friends may consider to be due. I should
have been more content, however, if a task so honour
able and so completely consonant with my feelings, that of
proposing my Right Honourable Friend for the Chair,
bad fallen into worthier, and into hands perhaps more exempt
from the suspicion of private partiality. I have the satisfaction
however of knowing thrat my execution of this duty, however
imperfect, or however unsatisfactory it may have been to my-
self, will not be unsatisfactory to a large majority of a great
constituency that has sent me here.--( Hear, hear, hear.)
At all events, I am satisfied that if the occasion ever arrive,
on which I shall have to answer at the bar of offended public
opinion for any errors in judgment or feeling, or any incapacity,
I trust that this will be the first occasion and the last on which
those who blame me will fix.--(Hear, hear.) I beg to con-
clude with moving that the Right Honourable Sir Charles
Manners Sutton do take the Chair.—(Loud cheers.)
Sir CHARLES BURRELL then rose and said —I do not
'hesitate to offer myself as the seconder of the motion which
has been proposed ; but I should hesitate to detain the House
with a lengthened speech, after the very eloquent one of the
Noble Lord. Though differing, in some respects with the
Right Hon. Gentleman whom he has proposed, I beg to ex-
press my conviction of his superiority over every other Member
of this House to become its Chairman, without meaning to
disparage any one, or that other Right Hon. Gentleman, for
whom I entertain the highest respect. What I am about to
do I do from firm persuasion. I had the honour to second his
nomination in the year 1817, and from that time until the present
I have noticed his candour, his efficiency, and his impartiality.
—( Hear.) With these feelings I should do injustice to him,
and to my own character, if I satisfied myself with giving
a silent vote on this occason.—( Hear, hear.) The
House, then, will be justified in supporting this motion,
as it was justified in electing him before, by the attention,
ability, and efficiency which the Right Hon. Gentleman has
displayed. Under such circumstances, I trust the House will
reflect before they decide, and the Noble Lord has rightly
observed, that we are assembled under very peculiar
circumstances. But under any circumstances, we want a man
whose knowledge and talent will assist us in the business of
the House, and no man can be more fitted for the Chair, and
to expedite the business than one who has had so much practice,
and before whom no gentleman, however excellent his cha-
racter, or however fair his pretensions, can on that account be
, preferred. I therefore most cordially assent to the motion of
the Noble Lord, and will not detain the, -House longer, feeling
that any thing I could add would b:d superfluous.
Mr. DENISON then roses He said, I can assure the
House that it is with great reluctance I rise to trespass upon
its attention, and nothia-g but an imperious sense of duty could
induce me to come forward at the present important crisis—at
a period in whic,to the public mind is so much excited, and
when the er:s not only of this country and of Europe, but of
the whole civilized world, are directed to our proceedings. In
a great part of what has fallen from the Noble Lord,
( &radon) whose appearance in this House I am happy
to observe, I fully concur, nor do I object to much that
has been expressed by the Hon. Baronet who seconded the
motion, in all they have stated respecting the qualities of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Cambridge, respect-
ing all the virtues' of his private character, and respecting
the dignified manner in which he demeaned himself while
in the Chair of this House.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
But this is not a question of personal character—it is
one in which a great public principle is involved—(Cheers
and laughter from the Ministerial side)—and however the
Noble Lord may sneer at public principle, I trust the House
will not despise it. The Noble Lord has thrown more aspe-
rity into the debate than in my opinion is required ; and
although he has leaped his light courser beyond bound,
I will not now imitate his example. It is, I repeat, on the
a.asertion of a great public principle that I rise to trespass on
the attention of the House, called upon, as it now is, to decide
upon a question in which the interests of thousands are in-
volved. His Majesty, in the exercise of his undoubted
right, dissolved the last Parliament ; the people responded
to the call, and have returned a majority of representatives
steadily attached to the great principles of the Reform Bill.—
( Cheers.) With all respect for the talents and character of
the Right Hon. fife Member for the University of Cambridge,
I think it incumbent on; this House that a Gentleman be placed
in the chair, the highest situation to which any Commoner can
aspire—the representative of the greatest assemblage in the
Universe should be assimilated in principle to the majority of
the members over whom he presides, " as coming events cast
their shadows before." We must, in deciding this question,
take into consideration the measures which the Right
Honourable Baronet at the bead of his Majesty's Govern-
ment, proposes to bring before the House. In the
discussion of Corporation Reform—the Bill for the
relief of the Dissenters—the motion of the Hon. Member
for St. Albans, and of that crying of all grievances, the state
of the Irish Church—in the discussion as to the dismissal of
the Melbourne Administration unheard and without a trial—
without that trial which the Right Hon. Baronet and his
friends around him are so sedulous in demanding, foi getting
the principle of " do as you wish to be done by"—in the debate
which must take place on the unprecedented assumption of the
reins of Government, for three weeks, by one individual, who
however high in station or renowned for his military achieve-
ments abroad, should have been deterred from such a hazard-
ous undertaking—in all these discussions, it will be incumbent
on the House to have a gentleman in the Chair, who acting with
impartiality and dignity will agree with the majority of the
House. But a time may arrive when a difference of opinion
with the other House may take place. In such an emergency
it would be requisite to have a gentleman in the chair whose
sentiments will be perfectly identified with the principles of
the Reform Bill. In rising to propose the Right Hon. the
Member for Edinburgh, as he is present, I cannot say all I
think respecting him, but this I must say, that there is
no gentleman, in my opinion, of all those whom I have
the honour to see around me, more cualificd than he is
to fill the Chair, whether I regard the- uniform consis-
tency of his political character—his amiable manners—his long
Parliamentary experience, or his profound legal knowledge,
combining, as he does, a good temper with a clear head,
as' evinced in many long and trying debate!, professing, too,
the great principles of the Reform Bill—with such opinions
I flatter myself that all the gentlemen that I have now the

honour to address who supported the Reform Bill, or who
on the hustings avowed themselves supporters of it,
not only in letter, but in spirit, I hope that all such
will support the motion with which I shall conclude,
viz., to put, as .I said before, into the first station to
which a Commoner can aspire, the representative of the
greatest assembly in the universe, the Right Hon. James
Abercromby. The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst
loud cheering.
Mr. ORDE then rose to second the nomination which had
been made. He said, it is with great reluctance that I now
trespass upon the time of the House, but I trust that the oc-
casion will be my apology.—(Cheers.) I feel a deeper de-
gree of regret when I have to oppose the election of a gentle-
man whose public services I must acknowledge.--(Great cheer-
ing.) I am as willing as any one to acknowledge those
services, but I think that this is an occasion when private opinion
must give way to public duty. The choice of a Speaker is not
a mere local question, as the Noble Lord has said. The
question is one looked at by all persons, not only of this
country, but of others—it is not looked at as a question
of a personal nature, but very justly as the proof of
what the Parliament really is.—( Cheers.) The question most
frequently asked is, If the Right Hon. Gentleman was fitted
to fill the situation of Speaker in the last Parliament„ why is
he not now—:hat has rendered him unfit to preside over the
present one? Into those questions I will not follow the Noble
Lord—they have been disposed of by my Honour-
able Friend, who has proposed the Amendment.—( Cheers.)
The only answer to that I can give is, that the times have
changed—( Cheers)—the times and circumstances have totally
changed since the election of the Right Hon. Gentleman. It
was generally understood then, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had retired; he had had his retiring pension fixed—( Cheers)
—so that there can be no parallel drawn between the
present circumstances and those which actuated the Members
of the last Parliament. Then, the question was not
a test of the state of political parties, as it is now.—( Great
cheering.) The whole country now looks at the present ques-
tion as one which will decide the question to which their
whole attention is directed.—( Cheers.) His Majesty, who was
advised to appeal to the sense of the people and the country,
will be very much dissatisfied if the reply to that appeal should
be—the very first vote of this House is to place in the Chai •
one whose opinions are not in accordance es oh the opinions of
of the great majority of the House. I am obliged to -
the election of the late Speaker on these gro-...0- s_uoirtin
not be the representative of the House- '
-.-;
tt nroit be.tncsrcat
organ of the House. My Hon.
am about to second, has ..an„. Vvhc4o iicromatten I
;44 -t'illatitcatioir, 3tTla ttl, will in
reality be the or J of -tte Rose., 'Up-lions being in ac-
cordance w'
so th4St tbe, neijetity of the House.--( Great
cheeriigo ""nit etedieti, `eili be received by the country as the
trtueispils not of .e. party, but of a great public principle.
(great cheering.) Such are the grounds upen which I stip-
port the Nomination of the Right Hon. Membet rot t dinburgh
to fill the Chair of this House. It fs :kith great pleasure that
I second the nomination of the Right Hon. James Abcrcromby
to the Chair of this House.—(Great cheering.)
Sir Ce M. SUTTON then rose.—He said he was aware
thtt he owed an apology—an excuse to the House-re-for in-
truding himself upon them. He was so citturn§landca that
the House, after hearing what he hark t 0 tay, *lust form thCir
own judgment. He would not, for he could not, say one
word in disparagement of the qualifications of the Right
Honourablt i3entleman, the Member for the city of
Edinburgh. He had waited writhing under all the eltarges
thai had been heaped upon him. Knowing tut the proper
place to give an answer to the chettel was the floor of that
House—( Cheers)—he trusteed the House would hear him, for
he would speak without any asperity.—( Hear.) The charge
against me in the abstract is that being Speaker, I bu-
sied myself in other matters ; that I assisted in the forma-
tion of the present Ministry, and counselled and advised the
dissolution of the late'Government. —( Hear, hear.) Now,
these were the three points affecting my public character, and '
peculiarly affecting it as the Speaker of this House, who, to
a certain extent, must be indebted to the existing Govern
ment, and would, therefore, be guilty of lending a hand
to the extinction of that body which had given him the
proud pre-eminence which he filled. Now to all, to each one,
and to t-eery one of these charges, I reply, there is not one
ward of truth from beginning to end.—( Loud cheers.) Sir,
with empect to my having been mixed up with other matters,
allow me to explain that as soon after the prorogation of
the last Parliament as the remaining public business which re-
mained to be disposed of would allow me, I went into the
country with my family ; and it will be remembered that at that
time his Majesty was also at Brighton. But I remained there
without any communication, directly or indirectly, with any
member of the Government until I was called back to London,
by express, upon the occasion of the lamentable fire which hap-
pened.—( Hear.) I came to London as quickly as possible,
and, after witnessing the devastation which had occerred, it
was suggested to me, and I instantly adopted the suggestion,
that it was my duty to acquaint his Majesty of it. With the
permission of the House, I will state the terms in which I
wrote to the King :
" The Speaker feels it his duty to acquaint his Majesty,
that having heard at Brighton early this morning that
the two Houses of Parliament, and the house in which,
by his gracious Majesty's permission, he lived, were on
fire, he lost no time in coming up to London, and the
Speaker regrets to state that both Houses of Parliament are
entirely destroyed, nothing being left standing but the walls.
A portion of the Speaker's house is also consumed, and the
domestic part entirely destroyed. Some of the public offices
have also suffered the same fate, and others have been much
damaged ; but most of the public papers therein deposited
have been saved. The Speaker regrets to add that Wesmin-
ster Hall was also in imminent danger, and was injured in
several parts. The Speaker trusts his Majesty will pardon
the liberty he has taken in forwarding this communication."
Sir, having written this letter, I carried it myself to the
Secretary of State for the Home Department. I saw the
Under-Secretary. The Principal Secretary being at that time
out of town, I told him I had written this letter to his Ma-
jesty, and requested him to send it by a special messenger to
the King, and to acquaint Lord Melbourne with the objects of
my letter and my visit. In the course of that evening
I received a letter informing me that his Majesty had
arrived in town, and desired my attendance at St. James's
Palace. At two o'clock I received another letter desiring to
see me before the morning. I also received a letter, stating
that his Majesty had received my report, and inclosing ano-
ther letter, in which his Majesty made some suggestions as to
the mode of accommodating the Parliament. I went and saw
Lord Melbourne, and told him I had received an answer to
my letter, and informed him of the contents; and I also
particularly requested him to, observe the object I had in view.
I had received a letter from Lord Melbourne, requesting to
see me. I never missed a single day's attendance, and I was
a party to the Report emanating from the Privy Council,
relative to the destruction of the two Houses. At the next
meeting I attended, I inquired if his Majesty bad any com-
mands for me, and I was informed that his Majesty had not
expressed anything of the kind. On the day following I re-
ceived a letter from Sir H. Taylor, stating that his Majesty
had commanded me to go down to Windsor, and be there
at five o'clock. I had a long audience with his Majesty,
and at its conclusion I requested his Majesty's permission
to:communicate to Lord Melbourne every thing that had
occurred.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") I did not request
permission to state it to this House, and therefore I do not feel
myself at liberty2to do so.—( Hear.) But I refer to Lord
Melbourne, to the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, and to the
Noble Lord who presided over tke Woods and Forests for the
truth. of this statement. I returned on Sattirday from
Windsor, and his Majesty proceeded to Brighton. When
I returned to London, I shewed to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man that I had his Majesty's commands to wait upon him, and
to make a survey of the ruins and gardens of the late Houses ;
and the Right Hon. Gentleman will recollect that I went over
the houses and gardens, and the report was then drawn up.
But before that report was forwarded by me to his Majesty, P
submitted it to Lord Melbourne and to the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, and then I despatched it. Subsequent to that the late
Ministry was dissolved, and I now declare that I had no anti-
cipation that such an event was near at hand, and that the
first intimation I received of it was an article which I
read in the morning papers.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The
next charge which I have seen brought against me was,
that I had busied myself in the formation of a new adminis-
tration, and the only overt act which is alleged against me, is
that I attended the Privy Council Meeting. I did attend
them, and the first was on the Monday following the resigna-
tion of the late Ministry. I attended his Majesty at St.
James's, and I there saw many members of the late Govern-
ment. They had audiences of his Majesty—so had I—( Hear,
hear)—and a message was also delivered, that all those in
the outer room who were privy Councillors, should conic
into the inner room, and sit at the Council Board. These were
the cirumstances under which I attended. I was merely teen by
sufferance in my official capacity as Privy Councillor. The
other meetings I attended from having received the ordinary
printed circulars sent to the Members. It would be difficult,
and I may add improper, to state what occurred at those meet-
ings, or to enter into minute details of the business transacted
at those meetings ; and I believe such a statement would not
be consistent with the oath of a Privy Councillor ' • but there
arc many gentlemen present who are Members of the Privy
Council—its votes arc open to them, and it will be
sufficient to state to the House that on any of the occasions
when I attended nothing was transacted but business of the
most formal nature.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.")
When my Right Hon. Friend Sir Robert Peel returned, and
took upon himself the station which he now occupies, he did
me the honour to send for me to his house. It was upon an
occasion when I was requested to attend a Privy Council, •
which had nothing whatever political in its object—it was for
the purpose of getting the sanction of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to make good the payments of the Exchequer,
and to fix the salaries. With these two exceptions, from the
time of Sir Robert Peel's return up to this time, I have never
attended a Cabinet Council at his house.—( Cheers from the
Ministerial benches.) I will not go further with this subject.
But when I hear of constant visits and communications with
the Home-office before my Right Hon. Friend (Peel) re-
turned, and of my being continually with the Duke of Wel-
lington, I think I am bound to say that there is not one word
of truth in it Cheers.) It would be perfectly immate-
rial if it were true. 'I would have felt it an honour if I were
justified in calling so frequently as I was reported to have called.
But I should consider it an act of impertinence, having no bu-
siness to transact there, if I were to call as has been stated.
I never did so, and all I will say to the charge is, that it is
totally false.—( Cheers.) Now, with respect to the forma-
tion of the present Ministry, I will boldly say, that with the
exception of my Right Hon. Friend Sir R. Peel, the Lord
Chancellor, and the Duke of Wellington, I never have ad-
ised, never suggested, never counselled, and never knew of
the appointment of any one individual, till it had taken place.
—(Great cheering from the Ministerial benches.) So much
for that charge. I will now come to this—namely, the

dissolution of the last Parliament. —( Hear, hear.) It has been '
said that I assisted at the Council where that measure
;vacs resolved upon. It is not true.—( Great cheering.) I
never did advise, never did 'counsel, never was eonanlted, and
never had anything to do with the disaolution of the last Par-
liament. So little did I know of it, that it was by accident,
purely by accident, that I became acquainted with it. I knew
nothing of the fact till it was announced hi, the Gazette.—
( Cheers.. I will only. mention this further circumstance, and
the fact will occur to the minds of all the Gentlemen here, that
if 1 were so confident that Parliament would be dissolved,
why did I not take those steps that *ere taken
by others—why did I not address my constituency in the pros-
pect of a dissolution—why did I not beg-for their favour ?
The fact was that I have had no communication whatever
upon the subject, nor did I have anv with my cOnstitnents
until I ceased to be Speaker of that House. When I did so
cease, I then certainly had communications on the subject.
I am now again a candidate for the high office I for-
merly held, but with respect to my having had any
communication with any human beingt at any time, M. upon any
occasion, with reference to the late dissolution of the last Go-
vernment, or that there is anything from which to infer that I
had anything to do, or that I delivered 4 single opinion re
specting the dissolution of the lasi Parliament. I will say
that to each and to all I Will give, with the utmost solemnity,
the strongest denial that can be given. I will declare—
before this House—that, from the beginning to the end,
it is wholly, ar.d utterly false,-.4 Great cheering. )
I have felt it but respectful to the House to state this. As I
said before. I have long been the servant of the Hose of
Commons and their chief officer, and there is no disgrace
which I should feel SO heavy, aS upon the present occasion to
be discredited by this House.—( Loud cheers.) With respect
to who is the best person to fill the office of Chairman, I am
sure that the House will concur with me, and I Mean to
disparagement to my Right Hoinnitable friend (Mr.
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highest respect for the Right Honourable and Learned
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has been proposed in opposition to me, and I
.ye he will believe that I speak with perfect sincerity when
I tr..y that AO Man rates his talents higher than I do,
and I feat 'that it is ho disparagement to him to se,-
that even he would feel great difficulties in filling
the char of this House. I will now conclude ; but before I
sit down, perhaps the House will permit me to express a wish
it is the one uppermost in my mind—that whatever may he the
determination of the House upon the present occasion, they
may fans a. sound judgment in electing him as their Speaker
who will discharge his duties most usefully to the canary,
most acceptably to the House, and most satisfactory to the
public at large. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded amidst
very loud cheers.
Mr. ABE R CROMBY then rose and Was received with
most enthusiastic cheers. Prom the situation in which the
Right Hon: Gentleman steod, and troth the lbw tone in Which
he apolkh, it Was almost impossible to catch a single whole sen-
tence of what he stated. We, however, understood the Right
Hon. Gentleman to say that he had yielded to the sug-
gestions of his friends, and not by any desire of his own, in
standing.forwards as a candidate for the high office of Speaker
of that House. The House was now about to perform its
first and one of its most important duties.—( Loud cheers.)
He had always considered the selection of the individual
who was to fill the highest place in that House was one of its
most paramount duties.—( Cheers.) He would say nothing at
the present moment with reference to the fitness of the Right
Hon. Gentleman or himself to fill that high office, but would
leave that point to be decided by the judgment of those who
were much more competent judges than himself.—( Cheers. )
The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, no doubt, as he thought
properly and most honourably, had entered into explanations
of his conduct with reference to what had taken place
not within, but without the walls of that House. It
must be known to all present that the contest out of the
House had been conducted in a very different manner to
that in which it would be carried on in it.—( Great cheering. )
He would not advert now to what had taken place elsewhere,
because, unless he was very much deceived, many days
would not pass before a motion would be brought be
fore the House, which would have the effect of deciding
the particular question which had been so much the subject
of conversation out of doors.—( Loud cheers.) Whatever
opinion he had entertained upon different subjects, whether
right or wrong he, would not pretend to say, had,been adopted
by him because he believed them to be the best. He did not
think it necessary to trouble the House further, as he was
firmly convinced its decision would be such as would give
weight and dignity to'titself, and insure all its rights and pri-
vileges, and secure thetconducting of its business with order
and regularity, which was essential to the comfort, honour,
confidence of the people--( Cheers.)
Lord STANLEY then rose amidst great cheering and ad-
dressed the House as follows—Sir, as I conceive it is not pro-
bable that any other gentleman will be submitted to the con-
deration of the House other than those that have already been
laid before it, I hope I shall not be considered as impertinently
intruding myself on the attention of the House, when I con-
fess that I feel anxious to take this opportunity of stating the
grounds for the vote which it is my intention to give on the
present occasion.—( Cheers.) In doing so, I am anxious, in
a question which partakes in some plegree of personal and po-
litical consideration, to state my views without offence to either
of the two gentlemen who have been put in nomination, for
both of whom I entertain personal respect—( Cheers)—and
from whom I have received during the existence of the late
government, great and important assistance.—( Cheers.)
I had the honour to form part of that Government—an honour
I shall ever feel in having for four yearsbeen a member of that
Administration. I yield to no Member in my attachment to
that which has been put forward as the great principle involved
in this question—l mean the principle of Reform. I yield to
no Member of that or any other Government in my attachment
to liberal principles. I will venture to say, I am second to
none in the zeal with which I endeavoured to support it. But
in 1833, although I did not express my sentiments on that oc-
casion, I conveyed most fully my praises to those which were
everywhere bestowed by every side of the House on the talents,
integrity, and impartiality of my hon. friend—that no difference
of public opinion were sufficient to counterbalance his
inestimable) services.—( Loud cheers.) I was of that opi-
nion then, I am of that opinion now. But when I came down
to the House, I must confess I did expect to !Tar a declara-
tion of the differences of circumstances under which their
opinions had changed.—( Cheers.) I came down with com-
munications from neither one side nor the other, founded on
nothing but the public prints, and wherein I was informed that
disclosures were to be made that would call on the House as a
matter of honour, to do an act of justice to itself in not sub-
mitting to an intriguer as the President of their assembly.
Now, Sir, what has been done ? My Hon. Friend who pro-
posed the Right Honourable Gentleman, and no man enter-
tains a higher respect for talent and consistency than I do,
says not one word on the subject ; but that, on the contrary,
my Right Honourable Friend ( Sir Charles Manners Sutton)
stood as high in the estimation of the country as he ever stood
before. But he says that a great public principle is involved.
here. My Hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle, who fol-
lowed in the same course, explained a little more what that
general principle was, which I confess, in my own mind, had
been left in doubt.—(Hear, hear.) He had declared
that no public charges were made on his public conduct,
but that, morcova, if public charges had been made else-
where, that the House of Commons could not take cogni-
zance of them ; that if they had been made, the House was
not to take advantage of them. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man was, he was convinced, from what had fallen from him,
not satisfied with his position ; he had felt that in that po-
sition in which his friends desired to place him, he ought
not only to be unconvicted, but unsuspected. I agree
' with him, my Right Honourable Friend has met the
charges boldly—he has met them freely—he has met
them unanswered—without an intention of their being an-
swered ; and I say, then, on these grounds the House
of Commons cannot degrade the Right Hon. Gentleman
from the situation in which he now stands.—( Great cheering.)
I come then to the public principle which is involved in this
question. What is there that this House cannot give the
go-by in this as you did on a former occasion ? The person
whom you select to be your Speaker should, they contend, be
known to entertain opinions in conformity with the majo-
rity of that House. Is that a new principle ? Was not
that proposition met by Lord Grey's Administration ?
The declaration says that that was sot a proposition of public
principle ; but if this be a great public principle, surely that
which we gave the go-by in 1833 was of infinitely greater
importance ; but I ask the House—l do not question the consis-
tency of those gentlemen who held that opinion in 1833—but I
ask whether in following up those opinions in 1833 a complete
refutation was not given to such a principle's? But, Sir, in 1833
they say there was no question upon which there had been
a direct appeal to the country. Let the country look to 1831,
in which an appeal was agitated, and in which a great principle
was involved—l allude to the Corn Bill. Was there ever a
question on which this principle was brought forward ? And
what was the first act of that Parliament but to elect a Speaker
whom they knew to entertain opinions different from the
administration and the majority of the House ?—( Hear.)
I might inquire of the Right Hon. Gentleman who proposed
Mr. Abercromby, in what respect the circumstances of 1833
and 1835 have so far differed, that we should elect a different
Speaker ? But I have pointed out to him, that in one re-
spect at least the circumstances of the present times are not
stronger—they are not so strong, with regard to the question
• of the Speaker, in the general proposal of the House. Those
principles being put to issue, as they were in 1833, what are
the different circumstances ? I ask again and again, and I
know not what those circumstances are, except I am to take
the doctrine of the Honourable Gentleman, the seconder
of Mr. Abercromby, and that doctrine is, that this is not a
test of principle, but a test of the strength of party.—( Cheers
from the Ministerial benches, reiterated by the Opposition.)
We are told it is essential to the Crown that no mistake should
exist as to the sentiments of the House ; that no mistake in
1833 could have been entertained—that no mistake in 1831
could have been entertained, because upon both these
occasions the Hon. Gentleman asserted that the Government
--wielding the whole power of the Government, in proposing
a Speaker, must consent to such a sacrifice as the expediency
of the moment required. If it were a great public principle,
no expediency, nothing' on earth ought to have allowed a
Government to have acted so. But the Hon. Gentleman
says circumstances have now materially changed. They are
changed in one respect certainly, that we were in office in
1833, and that we are not in office in 1835.—( Laughter, and
cheers.) I really don't mean to say this invidiously. Hon.
Gentlemen may perhaps not believe me when I say I speak in
all sincerity, and I use the words of one of the Hon. Gentle-
men who proposed Mr. Abercromby. The difference be-
tween the cases of 1833 and 1835 has been stated by him

to be, that in one case a Speaker was peoposed by
thole who wielded the controul of the Government,
havirig a certain majority in their favour, and that in the pre-
instance the majority may be less, and that therefore it is es-
sential we should take this opportunity of signifying to the
Crown that we have no confidence in the Administration.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) Is this the principle ?—( Hear, hear,
hear.) Well then, if, it is, I say that an act of grosser in-
justice—( Great cheering from the Ministerial benches.)—
an act savouring more of resentnietit than of justice—never
could be perpetrated, than taking a decision of that point upon
a question Materially affecting the nuii;;:
and the character of
the House itself.—(Cheers from the ministerial -benches- )
I say, Sir, if it be the intention to try the strength of Parties,
let that queStinti be nlanliilly brought to issue upon an address
for the removal of the Ministert.-ejleati hear.) But
I say, do not on the one hand endanger sled &image
the character ( Cries of " No, no," and " Hear, hear,"
from the Ministerial benches)—l say, do not commit such an
injustice—{ Loud cries of " No, no,")—and I appeal to the
honour and the etifeichir of Oentleineri in this House, when I
ask them if it be riot an injustice-e-( beat, hear j and continued
cries of " No, no';)--to remove a Speaker agallAt VitaTil you
heed iielt Mill admitted that there iS no, present charge,
but whom you have even admitted to he pre-eminently
qualified for the situation—if it be not an injustice to remove
him, for the, purpose of ascertaining the strength of parties.—
( Cheers, and " No, no.") But we are told that by the election
of a Speaket this ctiv Vid eft,: RI judge of the strength of parties.
If the decision of this question is to lid fatten a. 4 Arf Indication
of the opinions of the Hoille-if the sentiments df the Speaker
should be in aaccirdanie with those of the majority of the Mem-
bers of this House, will the gentlenieri vihu support the, Hon.
the Member for Edinburgh take upon them to deddie that his
principles are their principles— (Cheers from the Ministerial
side)—that his politics are their politics, and that by his public
declarations they are prepared to be bound 2—(Continued
cheering.,) I knew that the Hon. .Member for East Surrey
(Mikjoi-Beatieterk) will not venture to make such a statement.
I know that he has long been a aupptitter of the Whig
party, and will not be held bound by the opinions of
the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Abercromby. )
But if my support should be taken as an indication
that I concur in the opinions of either of the Right Hon.
Gentlemen, I must say, that I widely differ from them both,
but egpeeially hi the. Cage of' the Right Hon. the Member for
Edinburgh, I see grounds for refusing hint my support. On
many questions I am opposed to him. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman is for shortening the duration of Parliament—if he
does not actually advocate triennial Parliaments. He sup-
ports, and I am opposed to, Vote by Ballot. I am against the
voluntary principle of supporting the Church, although not
possessed of so much experience on that subject as
the Right Hon: Gentleman. I have thus stated how far I
differ from him on these important questions, and therefore
am I to be told that by supporting his nomination to
the Chair, I have adopted all his political views?—(Loud
cries of " No, no ! " from the Oposition.) Why, if that
be not the case, what becomes of the statement of Hon
Gentletten that the decision of this question will be the test of
political strength—( Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition. )
One of two alternatives must be adopted—either the decision
must be taken as a test of political strength or not. Are the
Gentlemen opposite, who support the Right Hon. Gentleman
-s-are they all, 1 ask, prepared to adopt all his political senti-
ments? lf not, then this decision cannot be regarded as a
test of political strength. It would be impertinent of me to
mention the name of any gentleman as qualified to discharge
with dignity and impartiality the arduous duties of Speaker of
this House, but if feelings pf delicacy did not pre-
vent me, I could lay before the House a man—who, from
his knowledge, setting aside the experience of the Right
Honourable Gentleman below the (Sir C. M. Sutton)
was preferable to any other with whom I am acquainted, and
whose political opinions approached nearest to my own. I
would select the Right Hon. Gentleman who represents the
town of Cambridge (Mr. Rice). If my vote is to be taken as
an indication that my opinions are in accordance with the po-
litical opinions of the gentleman whom I support, mine accord
more with that Right Hon. Gentleman's, than With those of
the Right Hon. Member„for Edinburgh; but I disclaim the
doctrine altogether. I neither agree with the political principles
of the Right Hon. Gentleman below me ( Sir C. Sutton), or
with those of the Member for Edinburgh, but I stand on the
declaration which I made before—a declaration consistent
with all my political sentiments and opinions, consistent also
with all the arguments which have been heard from this side
of the House, and not attempted to be refused, that no case
has been made out, which can induce this House to withdraw
its support from the Right Hon. Gentleman who has for so
many years filled the Chair. In conclusion, I have to repeat
that it is on public grounds, and not from any agreement Jul
political principles, I support the motion of the Noble Lord,
the Member for Liverpool.
Mr. ABERCROMBY explained that the charges alluded
to rested not upon his assertions, but a report which prevailed
out of doors, and originated with some other person.—( Cries
of " Question," and " Divide.")
Mr. FERGUSSON said—lt is with no inconsideraV.?
degree of diffidence I rise to offer my sentiments on this im-
portant occasion. Very early perceiving that there would be
a strong opposition and difference of opinion on this question,
(though I did not consider it would be so important as it
has become)—from a high respect for the impartiality of feel-
ing and judgment, I did certainly communicate to Sir C. M.
Sutton, that I should vote for him, or at least not against
him.--(" Question, question.") But the character of my
present course, is now, however, very different. It is not now
a question of haracter, but a great political question.—( Hear,
hear.) On that principle I would have voted against my own
brother, if he had been opposed to the principles I conceived
advantageous to the public good ; but in the situation
in which I was placed, I found that the voice ofthe Reformers
throughout the country was loud and decided on the question.
—(Hear, hear.) Even any own constituents requested me to
support the other Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Abercromby),
and appeals came upon me, so fast and forcible, to bring me
to vote against Sir C. M. Sutton, that I was placed in a very
difficult situation, and there is scarcely a gentleman in the north
who does not think I shall vote against that Right Hon.
gentlemen. I am sorry to say that Sir C. M. Sutton has
placed his honour and character at stake upon this question.—
(Cries of " No, no," and " Hear, hear.") I say it in the most
friendly manner, that he has placed his character and honour
at stake, and as he has left it to me to take my own course, I
may declare that I believe his character and honour is not at
stake.--( Hear, hear, hear.) But the question is inti-
mately connected with the great principle of Reform,
and if I supposed his honour and character were at stake, I
would be the last man to vote against him--( Hear, hear.)
After what has been said, I have nothing more to add than that
I shall so far maintain my promise as not to vote against
him--( Hear, and loud cries of " Question.")
Sir CHARLES M. SUTTON and Mr. FERGUSSON
explained.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose, and was received with
loud cheers. He said he could not trespass upon the time of
the House, without explaining the grounds upon which he
gave his vote upon the present occasion. Before going into
the matter generally, he would say something relative to
what had fallen from his Right Honourable Friend, Lord
Stanley.) If his principles, as laid down by him that' day,
were carried out, then there was an end at once to the option
of the House of Commons as to whom they should place in
their chair. According to that doctrine, the House of Com-
mons were bound to re-elect the Right Hon. Gentleman, because
he had come down and denied, most firmly, that he had
any thing to do with counselling the dissolution of the late
House--( Great cheering)—with being guiltless of intriguing
for the dismissal of the late Ministry. The House had not
met for the purpose of passing a vote of censure upon
the Right Honourable Gentleman the late Speaker, but
to exercise one of the most important acts they could
be called upon to do, viz., the choosing of a gentleman to
preside over their debates ; and it would not, it could not, for
a moment be supposed that the House would cast dishonour
on any one of the candidates, because they did not elect him—
(Cheers.) There was a precedent for the election he pro-
posed to the House. In the time of Lord North, Sir Fletcher
Norton having done something to displease that Minister,
and the Noble Lord having a majority in the House,
proposed another gentleman as Speaker, making some com-
plimentary speech to the effect that he was too old a servant
of the Huuse and ought to be relieved from his duties—the
Noble Lord carried his motion, but could it for a moment be
supposed that the House intended by the vote to cast cen-
sure upon Sir F. Norton ? Much bad been said as to the
attendance of the late Speaker at the Privy Councils ; but it
was a well known fact, that the summoning of the Councillors
does not rest with the King, but with the Prime Minister
for the time. The attendance in question took place when the
Duke of Wellington was Prime Minister—(Cheers)—and
it was a well known fact that none of the Councillors were
summoned but those who were well known to hold opinions in
in unison with the person who snremoned.—( Cheers.) His
feeling was that the Speaker of the House of Commons
had so mixed himself up in the late political world, that he
had compromised the dignity of the character.—( Cheers. )
There is no doubt that if the Right Hon. Gentleman bad
pleaded to be excused, it would have been granted. At the
time the Duke of Somerset was appointed Master of the Horse
he no longer attended the Privy Council meetings, and when
the Earl -of Albemarle held a similar situation he also
declined attending them. If the Right Hon. Gent. had sig-
nified that such a proceeding would not be becoming in him,
if he had intimated the slightest wish that he thought
such a proceeding inconsistent with his public character, he
would have been at once excused.—( Hear, hear.) The num-
ber of Privy Councillors is not so small as to require
the attendance of every individual—they amount in all
to two hundred, and upwards, and it therefore cannot
be necessary that the Speaker of the House of Commons
should appear there against the known opinion—against what
would have been the declared opinions of that House of Com-
mons--( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") I think it can-
not be doubted that the Right Honourable Gentleman
would hardly have done that, if we were in the middle
of a Session of Parliament; if it was, for instance, during the
Easter recess, I fancy he would not have attended four
or five Privy • Councils, and be prepared to meet Par-
liament, and ask for their approbation for a provisional
Ministry, consisting solely and entirely of the Duke of
Wellington.—( Loud cheering.) With regard to the
charge of degradation that has been made, I fancy. that
the Right Hon. Gentleman cannot view it in such a light, and
there is nothing in the question that would make that gentleman
retire from this House with mortified or painful feelings.
I think the only point on which the question turns is
with respect to the Right Honourable Gentleman's political
bias. As the Hon: Member for Yorkshire observed
when proposing him on a former occasion, his political
feelings did not remain inert, but got the better of him, and
made him do acts which, as the Speaker of this House, he
should have avoided. This would be a ground with me, I con-

fess, for having the election of Speaker pure ; and it is one
of my reasons for not choosing the Right Hon. Gentleman.—
( Hear, hear.) It has been urged that Lord Grey's Govern-
ment approved of the Right Hon. Gentleman on two occa-
sions. With respect to the first of them, it was in the
year 1831, when the Right Honourable Gentleman still
continued in the office of Speaker, and nothing occurred to
render his removal necessary, to the end of the Session
of 1832. On the other occasion the Right Honourable
Gentleman did retire—he stated to the House that he
had acted as Speaker for six Sessions, and he asked its
permission to retire. I think that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man will admit, that I was not one of the most grudging of
those who offered their tribute of approbation and praise
^'--ht Honourable Gentleman. ( Hear, hear.) I
ato tnt nisi_
• to his conduct, during the sitting of
bore my testimon., .
that he behaved in the most ex=
Parliament, and I belie.:
party bias, he did not at-
emplary manners If he had
danger to be appre-
tempt to show it, nor was there the:
hended from its indulgence then when it ,w2s a weak party
that might happen now. In 1832, the Right Honourable
Gentleman having retired, and having obtained by „Act of
Parliament his retiring pension, he was elected Speaker tot'
following session. 1 know not what the objects or feelings
of those who proposed him were, but for my part I felt
exceedingly solicitous for the character of the Reformed House
of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) There is no doubt, in
point of intelligence, in point of honesty, and in point of
integrity, it was far superior to any other House that
had ever sat, but I did not feel sure that, having a great
number of members who had not turned their attention to
Parliamentary forms, there might not be some deficiency in
thee° forms, which would become the subject of- undeserved
obloquy. Prom these grounds I departed from my views,
which exactly were, that the Speaker should be
the organ and representative of the House.—( Hear, hear.) I
shall now tditi to a question, which, I think, by far the most
important, namely, how far public principle is involved in our
present choice. I think it is necessary to place in that chair a
man who is zealous on behalf of the liberties of the people,
zealous in behalf of poptlitee prerogatives, to be the organ of
this House with the Crown, to reisresent their feelings firmly,
zealously, and without fear of offending, pr a wish to conciliate
those who may have the power of dispensing fa: ours. This is
the doctrine of the reformed House of Commons, which it
is especially necessary to vindicate at the present moment.
That Parliament which, I shall say, was as loyal towards the
Crown as any Parliament that ever existed, was suddenly dis-
solved. It is the well-known prerogative of the Crown,
and that prerogative was asserted ; but when this naked
sword was drawn, it was necessary to have the shield and
.buckler of popular privileges.—( Great cheering.) I know of
no right more sacred or less to be infringed, than that of this
House placing its representative in the Chair. We
have all been sent here by persons, not because they like our
manners, but because they agree with us in our political senti-
ments, and because they think that we will reform abuses.
( Cheers.) So I say. Let us, let all who wish to see reform
of abuses, have a speaker in this house to aid us in those reforms.
This was the doctrine in ancient times, when the prerogative
was also asserted, as in the time of Charles the Second, when
an attempt was made to force upon the House of Commons
a Speaker favourable to the Court. The attempt was
resisted, and successfully resisted, and I will call the at-
tention of the House for a moment to the sentiments ex-
pressed by Sir Herbert Johnstone and Mr. Sergeant Williams
upon that occasion. The sentiments of those' eminent men
were Very different from those which I have heard to-day.---
( Cheers.) Sir H. Grimstone asked with indignation, " shall
we not have the liberty of choosing our own servant to do our
own work as we wish it done." And again, when he called
upon " every man to consider the right of the people of
England."—( Great cheering.) This is what I say on the
present occasion. I also say, let every man here consider
the rights of the Commons of England.—( Great cheering. )
We have for our choice a man of the character I have
mentioned, who, in addition to his legal and historical
knowledge adds a sound knowledge, of the Constitution
and the principles of the liberty of the people.—
( Hear ) Let us give the country an earliest that
we mean to set zealously about Reform—that we are not going
to deceive the people by mock Reform—let us show that, with
undoubted loyalty to the Crown, we are determined to main-
tain the privileges of the Commons.- -( Tremendous cheering.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL then rose, and was received with
loud cheers. He said—l will pursue the course generally
adopted by every one who has addressed the House, namely,
that of limiting the discussion on the present occasion to the
matter in question. I appear 'here as a witness to perform a
task I feel to be wholly unnecessary, that of confirming, so far as
my testimony can, the accuracy of my Right Hon. Friend ( Sir
C. M. Sutton.) As to what took place previous to my arrival
in this country, I will say nothing. I will speak only with
regard to what I know myself. In undertaking the duty
assigned to me by his Majesty, or at least shortly after-
wards—l had an interview with my Right Honour-
able Friend, Sir Charles Manners Sutton, and informed him
of the task I had undertaken, and of the principles upon which
I was determined to proceed, namely, that I should seek for
aid iii 41.!“ nerformanee of that task from every man whom I
thought could with me consistently with his honour.
I asked him, respecting, a; 1 did, his abilities and experience
in public life, whether it was con;..!tent with his feelings and
of the Crown?—
sense of duty to enter into the servis7.',
—( Cheers.) Sir, I received from the 147.!5t Honourable
Gentleman this answer, that he did not seek ei.;:eloyn.ient
in an official capacity in the service of the Crown, there a
defect in that which I will supply, as probably that was the
main reason which induced him at such a time to
withhold his services from his Majesty : he stated
I have served in the Chair for a period of 18 years, and I do
feel that if I were now to enter into the arena of discussion, I
should, after so long a service in the, and my personal connec-
tion with, the authority of that situation, I should
run the risk of lowering it, if I appeared in the
House of Commons as a member of the Government.—
( Cheers.) That was the reason, Sir, my friend assigned to ,
me for his willingness, nay, his desire, to withhold his ser-
vice, upon that occasion.—( Cheers.) When I understood
from my Right Honourable Friend that he was not willing
upon that ground, to enter into the services of the Crown as a
Member of the House of Commons,—caring that there might
be something that might lower his authority if he became a
member of the Government at a time when it was likely
that there would be a stormy discussion, I did not feel
it to be my duty to consult my Right Hon. Friend either as
to the formation of the Government or its policy—(great
cheering), and not one word passed between my Right Hon.
Friend and myself upon the subject.—( Hear.) I then asked
him whether he would wish again to fill the Chair of the
House of Commons in case of a dissolution.—( Cheers.) My
Right Honourable friend said, that he had no wish or feeling
upon the subject, that it was a matter on which he could have
no personal interest, from the liberality towards him of the
House of Commons.—( Cheers.) At the same time he stated
that the impediment of ill health which had led him to
meditate retirement no longer existed, and if I thought the
public had claims on a continuation of his services, so
long as health would permit him to exercise his duties
he wculd not withhold himself from the House of Commons.
Such were the circumstances, and such the course pur-
sued by my Right Honourable Friend, and the question
now is, whether, since he has been proposed, and professed
his willingness to serve the office of Speaker, it is right and
fitting that this House should select another.--( Cheers.)
The Noble Lord opposite says that we have a right to choose
whom we please. I admit that proposition to the fullest extent.
But I say that the Noble Lord who professes to be loudest in
favour of the public good ought not to insist upon an abstract
right ; but ought to consider, in an instance like the present,
whether that right can be exercised with justice.-4-( Cheers. )
The Noble Lord says that he would bring forward precedents :
in all his historical research he can only pt+toduce against
the Reformed Parliament under the Government of
Lord Grey—( Hear, hear, hear)—the example of Lord
North in the session when Sir Fletcher Norton—a worthy
example truly—( Great cheering)—the great objection to Sir
Fletcher Norton being a speech which he had made at the bar,
The Noble Lord cited a case in question—that of Lord
North ; that Lord North answered to this. Did
Lord North, however, present a case parallel to this ?
Did not Lord North substitute that by reason of ill-
health? Sir Fletcher Norton resigned the duties of the Chair
such was the case under Lord North's Administration. Lord
North was so convinced that whatever might abstractedly be
the right of exercising this privilege, he must be com-
pelled to invent some other pretence for not giving a
true reason for why he did so. The Noble Lord also
has another precedent. But if the Noble Lord has that prece-
dent, he must have concocted that precedent when he thought
that change hed arrived which rendered it imperative for a
new Speaker to be elected.—( Hear, hear.) But I ask the
Noble Lord whether this charge was not instituted against my
Hon. Friend in the belief that he had been idstrumental in
instigating a dissolution of Parliament. The Noble Lord
has cited another case, also that of Sir Edward Seymour.
The House of CoMmons then elected a Speaker.—( Here an
Hon: Member observed, " Against the wishes of the
Crown.") Against—against I I care not who it would
be against, though I ought to beg pardon for any apparent
warmth which may be observable. My situation is far too
onerous for me to set an example of warmth in this House.
The case which the Noble Lord has cited, is no case at all.
The Crown wished to elect a Speaker, another was elected by the
House in his stead; but 1 would ask the House and the
Noble Lord, whether the case which has been adduced has
any reference to the state of the circumstances at present,
and were not totally different from them ? Not in
the least doubting your right, as far as the office is
concerned— but is it just, or is it fair towards
the individual looking at it in a sense of common justice and
common fairness, that the Right Hon. Gentleman who has
received that election during six successive Parliaments
—against whom no charge has been brought—whose
health permits him to exercise its most arduous duties
and who, without one motive of personal interest to gratify has
consented to undertake the performance of its labours ? The
question then resolves itself whether you will permit a speaker
to suffer by six weeks of uncontradicted calumny against him.
( Cheers.) I say never contradicted by himself on authority,
and which calumnies have aroused the feelings of indignation
which have been displayed throughout the House.—
( Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I again repeat, may. I ask the
Noble Lord, and I am sure the candour of the Noble Lord will
instantly avow it, whether this change was not instituted from
the supposition that my Right Hon. Friend had been instru-
mental in promoting a dissolution of Parliament ?
Several voices—" No doubt."

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—My impression extended no
further than that he attended in the formation of that Go-
vernment, which, from its position, could do no otherwise.
My grounds of objection were certainly founded on the sup-
position that he had been a party to that advice by which the
late Parliament was dissolved.

Sir R. PEEL resumed.—lf this was their impression, I hope
the Members of this House will have the manliness to keep
o their •terms of opposition, but if they had determined
to
oppose on most other grounds, I have that confidence in
their honour that they will relinquish their oppcasition--
( Hear, hear.) What are the arguments which have,
been used in favour of the other side of the quea.ielle,
One Honourable gentleman ,says that the Speaker sinw."
always represent the majority of the House. Is that a prime i'
pie which ought to be established ?—( No, no.) Is it wise thai
a Speaker should be seeking favour with a majority of the
House of. Commons,' to secure his election ?—( Hear, hear. P
Is it not infinitely wiser to look at his qualifications for office
rather than to look at his political opinions ? But that question
was decided by the first Reformed Parliament. Lord Grey
and his adherents having a great majority, thought
rt
right to elect the Right Hon. Gentleman whom the same patty
new oppose. You had the power, then, to enforce your or
nions, for you then had a majority, and why did you depart from
the principle you now lay down ? The first decision
of the Reformed Parliament carries this conclusions
that the House did not feel itself called upon to elect
a Speaker whose opinions were in accordance with the
~.;_erity of the House—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble
Lerd "we wanted •to avail ourselves of the ad-
vanta es or the Right Honourable Gentleman's charaCter.
g.
abilities and expo, :nee, and therefore we elected him. 131*
that man has served Use ; he has done his work; he has an"
severed our object ; and, veils signal ingratitude, I must PP
--(Loud and repeated cheeeseg)—we will now dismiss
him, after we had established tile principle of electing
a Speaker not of our own opinions, wizen we had the power
to reject hint. After we have availed ourselves of his ser-
vices, and after he has co-operated with es in establisfre
ing the character of the first reformed Rarliament for
decorum, we will unfairly' take the very first ppportunitl
to subject him to disgrace.—( Cries of " No, no.") No, ge,
indeed; for no disgrace can be heaped upon a man who has
done his duty. It is beyond the reach of a majority to de
that; but it is not beyond the reach of a majority to injur
the character of the House.—( Hear, hear.) The lioneic
able Gentleman who seconded the motion with so egne
ability and candour, has remarked that it is of great int'
portance, as there is a probability of two or three stoegsY
debates likely to arise in refereece to the present Governmegti
and the dismissal of the last, that we should have an impart.
Speaker, look then who has he proposed?—(Loud
cries
of C 0 Hear hear,") I took clown the words—" It l
of impOrtance to have an impartial mediator to still the_
raging storm which may be raised by the conflicts which etro
likely to ensue between exasperated parties." And who have Pv
selected? One who was a distinguished member of the ye% t
government whose principles and removal are to ca°lo;
under discussion. If impartiality is the object, select °h. °0
you please, but certainly not one of those whose condnet 'so
be canvassed.—(Hear.) There are two candidates ;
who has served the office eighteen years during seven paelte
silents, and who declined office on the ground that he though
it would have a tendency to lower the authority of th
Chair. The other candidate is a member of the late
Government of whom I will not utter one word of disrespect'
but of whose impartiality we have had no opportunity to Judie,
in this House. Can you doubt of the preference you °ogle
to give to either ? The House has a most important duty
perform, and should be as careful not to do injustice to all
individual, as not to lessen its own character and influenc7
I shall resist the motion, then, of the Hon. Gentleman (A'!"
Denison) on individual and personal grounds; and as this 15
the only office which the House has the power of confeeel
let us avail ourselves in the selection we may make of re
example which reformed and unreformed Parliaments
afforded us. The only objection made to the appoints:Pe
of the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir C Sutton) i ghat be ad
tended certain Councils which were instrumental in dismissl;
the old Government and in forming a new one. An .sf
testimonies that have been given of Isis tried impareia°b',
and his abilities remain quite unimpeached. But if e
is to be blamed for acting in the capacity of a Privy Cowls
for, the House should make a rule disqualifying hills to
that office. A, great mistake pervades the public mired lists be
the duties of a Privy Councillor; it consists not merely g' od
members of Government ; others besides are called on to at° e
the Council. No advice is given in it. But if the Speakers
in town when a Privy Council is convened, and his adviefide
asked, what right has he to refuse such advice ? It is erroge°
however, to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman contribc
to the formation of the present Government,' on the uee
missal of the former one. I shall vote for the Hon. Gentles:ll;s,
because I think that the precincts of the chair of that 01.0,
ought not to be invaded to try the strength of political eal`let
—( Hear, hear.) I shell resist the motion to "rbio
the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh, on the groun
the Member for the University of Cambridge posseses super
qualifications from his long practice in the duties of Spea'iss
and because his rejection, for the reasons advanced against, of
appointment would tend to disparage as well the charaeteee'e,
the office of Speaker as of the House of Commons it.'"ld
The Right Hon. Baronet sat down, and was loudly ehee
for rninutes. tee
Mr. COBBETT 'rose amidst loud cries of " Que'bl
question." The lion. Member stated that the last he se
heard , of hi conseituents was, and Address to of
Majesty, thanking hem for having dismissed
late Ministers. (Laugh:ee.) He would do ne.,eters,
which had a tendency to brfie:e them back again. ne
were a great many reasons why :,se would not vote fel' 00
Ab2rcromby, and one was, that the Right Hon. Gentld,
the Member for Edinburgh, for whom, nersonally, be haw
great respect, was one of those who clande,-tinely etlahe'Les/
ware: and carried the inhuman Poor Law Law',
Lord MORPETH then rose, amidst loud crie::' "h‘lssf
tion, question." He said he would limit hfe" ceus'el
tions to what seemed to him to be peculiar to I\ls° 110
position. —( Hear, hear, hear.) His Noble Friend we. I
opened the discussion of to-day so ably had reminde\sr
House that at the election of the Speaker of the last.V
liament, he (Lord M.) had had the distingglso'
honour of proposing the successful candidate for that big' sef
pointment ; and true it was, that he rested his recommegua
of the appointment of Sir Charles Manners Suttlesi,
his eminent fitness for the discharge of the duties and t°,so
ties of his office.—( Hear, hear.) Not one syllable of se
he had then stated did he now repent or retract. Iletti
contrary, if the opponents of Sir Charles M. Sutton %set
fail in their object they would at least have the, coloPte°,
tion of yielding to no unworthy foe, and of knowing Woe'
high functions of that office would be entrusted to a't
guardianship. His limited task at the present moments oriel
merely to claim for himself as full a share of even anuesee'
literal' consistency as could be assumed by any other/ Me "0"
for, upon looking at the fullest records of their precee
he found that in the very act of proposing the Riet,e 11. d
Gentleman, before he came to any mention of his name
this expression, and he should certainly state what that Wat!'s'ee,'
cause when his Noble Friend had paid him the come se'
of quoting some expressions of his he did not happen to itt:id,
this. He had stated that, in approaching the object for nice
he had risen, he had felt that it was due to himself to pel
tion, and lie was sure the person whom he was about to Prc'e
for the choice of the House, would be the last to cotoloa' if
it. That there were circumstances which, at one tilsles'ie
duced him to contemplate a different arrangement; hued
circumstances to which he had but slightly alluded Ipe'
arisen. Those circumstances, as were known to many, ht'r
arisen in consequence of the absence from his place ° iffr
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh'
estimate he then held of Sir C. Sutton, and the respect slot'
abilities—the character and the career of his Right
Friend remained the same.—( Loud cheers.) st
Lord DUDLEY STUART arose amidst the love :et
of " Question, question," " Divide, divide," and said ' cse,
should certainly vote for Sir Charles Manners Sutton, heo ete,
however painful it might be to him to vote in opposition tsp.'',
with whom he usually acted, he considered that nothing }rbil'
stated that could justify any man in supposing that Si"
,e `1 ,
Manners Sutton had forfeited the confidence of the 14°Iiie-ei''
'[here was then a constant cry of " Divide, divide,
de
which doiy
Mr. ROBINSON rose and said, they would be - eo''y
act pf injustice to the Right Hon. Gentleman—("
He deemed that it was a question of public principle , ewo„
chair were vacant, he knew no gentleman fur whole
vote withmore pleasure, than the Hon. Member for s'e,‘
The speaker was interrupted by loud cries of " Divl`'`o'n
" Withdraw," which were kept up without interraisst
he sat down.
bed'

Sir R. PEEL said a few words, but not ene was
The House then divided, when there appeared-
For Mr. Abercromby
For Sir C. M. Sutton

Majority for Mr. Abercromby I
{l.,
The House then adjourned. tllsl
0
•
On the announcement of the divittion, the cheereb° t,
and without the House were deafening beyond pre /.
_
B I R T II S. CV
at 4
On the 17th inst., the Lady of Elliot Roberts, Esq-'v
of a daughter.
On the 12th inst., at the Vicarage, Edleaorough, /3'l !it
lady of the Rev. W. Bruton Wroth, of a son. I;
On the 17th inst., at Caldecote Hall; Warwickshire,_thoerti• tbi
Edmund Charles Maeriaghten, Esq., of a daughter, still Pef,
On the 14th inst.., at Preston Deanery, Norrthainpton ' jo.
ady of Langham Cristie, Esq., of a son. Ole
On the 17th inst., Mrs. J. F. Muller, of Penton-row, Aoll
of a son. .
_, di'
On the 14th inst., at Weston-super-Mart, the 184 P
#
Daviessolicitor, of a daughter. f A.
On the 17th inst., in Tasistock-square, the lady ° ,00
royave, Esq., of a (laughter. ve. 0
On the 15th init., at, Norwood, Surrey, Mrs. G. '—
a daughter.