The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-19 00:00:00

NOTICES OF MOTION,

THE REFORM BILL.--Mr. RICH, in committee on the
Reform Bill, to move that in determining on the disfran-
chisement of smaller boroughs it was expedient that the
mere amount of population within such boroughs should not
alone be taken into account, but that the amount of direct
taxation paid by such boroughs should also be considered.
Moors IN THE COLONIES.—Sir A. AGNEW to move, on
Monday next, in the event of a satisfactory answer not being
Oven to the question of Mr. Maguire a resolution to the
effect that the troops in none of the colonies should be re-
quired to salute the host.
RETURNS ORDERED.
NATIONAL COLLECTIONS. -- On the motion of Mr.
Spooner, returns showing the sums expended under the
following heads in each year from 1846 to 1859, severally--
British Museum Establishment, British Museum Buildings,
British Museum Purchases, National Gallery, Scientific
Works and Experiments, Royal Geographical Society,
British Historical Portrait Gallery, Science and Art Depart-
ment, Museum of Practical Geology, and Royal Society;
and, of the sums expended in the purchase and laying out of
the grounds and in buildings on the Kensington Gore
Estate, in each year from 1851 to 1858 inclusive (in con-
tinuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 313, of session
1857-8).
DECIMAL CURRENCY.

Mr. BEAMISH asked when the report of the royal com-
missioners on decimal currency, appointed in 1855, was ex-
pected to be laid on the table ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
must express not only regret, but surprise, that this report
had not been laid on the table. There were three commis-
sioners—Lord Monteagle, Mr. Hubbard, and Lord Over-
stone ; and he was bound to say, in justice to the latter,
that his report was prepared, and was quite ready to be
laid on the table. He trusted that the inquiry of the hon.
member might lead to the early production of the reports of
the other members of the commission.
HARBOUR MASTERS OF THE THAMES.

Alderman SALOMONS asked if the Board of Trade had
received information from the conservancy board of the
river Thames as to the removal of the harbour-master's
office from the river side at East Greenwich to an office at
Tower-hill ; and if so, on what grounds of public conveni-
ence such removal had been determined ?
Lord LOVAINE said that no official information had
been received by the Board of Trade on this subject. He
understood that there were two harbour-masters, the duties
of one of whom had been transferred to another office ; and
hence the removal of the office.
CHICHESTER HARBOUR

General CODRINGTON wished to ask the Secretary to
the Admiralty whether the public objection of the Admi-
ralty to the embankment of Chichester harbour, as notified
to this house on 14th February last, had been removed ; if
so, on what 'm ounds, and whether he could lay on the table
of the house the written consent of the board ?

Mr. CORRY said the Admiralty had the strongest ob-
jection to the proposal, and it would be his duty to oppose
it on the next stage of the bill.
THE CASE OF MR. BARBER.

In reply to Mr. BRADY, • •
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the Government had the case
of Mr. Barber under consideration for a considerable time,
and found great difficulty in dealing with it. In the first
place, they felt that it would be wrong to lay down a prece-
dent that might prove injurious in similar cases. But on
the other hand, as Mr. Barber's case had been considered
by a committee which made a unanimous report in his favour,
the Government, after weighing various suggestions,
thought the best course to adopt was to propose a vote of
money for Mr. Barber in the estimates, not by way of com-
pensation for what he had suffered, but as some acknow-
ledgment that he had suffered considerably.

-
WEST INDIAN IMMIGRATION.
On the motion of Mr. BUXT9N the following returns were
ordered :—Returns up to the present date, of all loans made
by the British Government, or guaranteed by it to the seve-
ral West Indian colonies, British Guiana, and Mauritius,
for immigration purposes, and of any amounts which the
colonies have repaid on account of such loans, distinguish-
ing the sums loaned or guaranteed to or repaid by each
colony; and of the amount each of those several colonies
has voted for immigration purposes, specifying the amounts
paid for importation and for back passage.

SUPERANNUATION BILL.

On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that as Bel, eral hon. gentle-
men had put questions to him with regard to this bill, it
would perhaps save time if ho were to make a short state-
ment previous to the house going into committee. The Su-
perannuation Act of 1834 was based upon this principle,
that it laid down a scale of superannuation allowance to be
granted to officers who belonged to departments named in a
certain schedule appended to the act. There was a provi-
sion in the act which enabled the Treasury to bring new
departments within the terms of the act, and several de-
partments had been brought within its provisions. The
act of 1834 also contained a clause which made it necessary
for officers, before they could become entitled to the benefit
of superannuation, to pay 5 per cent. and 21 per cent.
towards the expenses of their own superannuation, and in
consequence of the reluctance of officers to pay that deduc-
tion, a considerable number of them had not been brought
within the act. When these officers came to retire, al-
though they were not strictly entitled to compensation, it
was felt that it would be hard to exclude officers who
had served long and faithfully from the benefit of the

allowance. Accordingly a superannuation was allowed
them, but considerable confusion arose from this
otate of things. The system of abatements had given rise
to considerable objection, and created a great deal of excite-
ment in the house and in the country. His rigbt hon.
friend the member for Radnor brought in a bill on the sub-
ject. That bill did not.pass, and the subject was then re-
ferred to a royal commission. The measure introduced by
the late Government last session and the present bill were
founded on the recommendations of that committee. The
main point on which the bill differed from the act of 1834
was this, that whereas the act of 1834 gave superannuation
to the officers named in the schedule of the act, this bill pro-
posed to give superannuation to all civil servants. It ap-
peared to him to be more suitable to make no distinction
than to schedule the officers who should be entitled to
superannuation. All civil servants, therefore, would be
entitled to superannuation, except those who were provided
for by Acts of Parliament, such as the judges, the sheriff-
depute of Scotland, and others • similarly circumstanced.
There was another exception with regard to those who were
provided for by " order in council. But he proposed to
strike out the words "or by order in council." These words
applied to the men in the dockyards, with regard to whom
a good deal of confusion existed, in consequence of the
variety of employments. There were some persons in the
dockyards who were entitled to the full amount of super-
annuation under the act of 1834. There were others who
were entitled to superannuation, but on a scale of, lower
amount than was allowed by the act of 1834. Below these
were another class who were paid a superannuation of £lO,
£24, and £34, according to the nature of the employment.
Others were not entitled ail all. He proposed that all
should be equally entitled to compensation. But there
were a class of workmen who were not permanently but
merely temporally employed in the dockyards. And at
that point they drew the line, because it was not con-
sidered that they came within the intention or spirit of the
superannuation system. There was another large class
of civil servants whose case had been brought before the
house, the officers of the Post-office. The Post-office was
one of the departments included in the act of 1834, and
therefore one would suppose that all the officers would
be entitled to superannuation. But those only who were
employed in the metropolitan offices were so entitled. Those
employed in the country—and the country included such
places as Manchester and Liverpool, where the duties were
as important and as onerous as m the metropolis—were ex-
cluded from the benefit of the superannuation. The letter-
carriers in London were also entitled to superannuation, but
those in the country were not. He proposed to put them all
on the came footing, making the same distinction between
persons who were permanently employed and those who
were only temporarily employed, as was made with regard
to the workmen in the dockyards. It was one of the condi-
tions of title b superrannuation that the money should be
paid out of the imperial funds. Applications had been made
by officers employed in prisons and in workhouses and others
to have the benefit of superannuation applied to them. It
might be very proper and desirable that there should be a
superannuation provided for this class of officers out of the
funds from which they were paid, but their position was so
distinct from that of the persons who were paid froM impe-
rial funds, that they could not be dealt with in this bill.
For the same reason the bill would not apply to those per-
sons who were paid by fees. He had been asked whether the
bill would apply to such persons as the procurators fiscal
and judges' clerks. It would not, because those persons
were liable to be dismissed at the pleasure of others, and not
of the Crown. If this class of persons were allowed the
benefit of superannuation it might open a door to abuse.
He begged pardon of the house for entering so much into
details, but he was speaking as much for the country as for
the house—there being a groat number of persons who were
anxious to know how they would be dealt with by the bill.
(Hear.) He thought he had now stated enough with regard
to the main principle on which they proposed to define who
were civil servants. The hon. member for Evesham asked
him if he could state what expense the bill would occasion.
That was an important question, and he was not in a posi-
tion to give a very satisfactory answer to it. It was so
much a matter of conjecture, that he felt it impossible to
give an answer. (Hear, hear.) There were three ways in
which expense might be occasioned by the bill. First, there
was the new scale of pensions, as compared with the former
scale. The former scale of pensions was a jumping one,
allowing so much for seven years' service, so much for 14
years, and so on. The present bill was a sliding scale, ad-
vancing so much year by year, and stopping at two-thirds
of the salary. To those who retired after 24 years' service
the proposed scale would give a somewhat higher remune-
ration than was given under the Act of 1834. If persons
retired before 24 years' service, there would be a saving
under the present scale. But to get at the average expense
was a very difficult matter indeed. But, speaking generally,
if the scale was to be applied to exactly the same class of
persons—and those only—as were included in the Act of
1834, the difference of expense would be very slight indeed.
The proposed scale was a better and more economical one
for the public in this respect, that it would discourage per-
sons from coming into the service and leaving it after a
short period. Secondly, bringing in new classes might add
to the expense of the superannuation fund ; but to what
extent it would do so would entirely depend on the number
of persons who were brought in. On that point he found
it difficult to arrive at any kind of conclusion. For instance,
it would appear from a customs return that 2,000 new persons
would be entitled to pensions finder the new arrangement who
were not entitled before. Hedid not believe that was pos-
sible. And on inquiring of Sir Thos. Fremantle he found
that a large proportion of these 2,000 were persons who were
placed on the establishment as temporary officers. No doubt
many of these would be taken on the permanent establish-
ment, in which case they would become entitled to pensions,
and their temporary services would be counted in their
favour. The same observation applied to the dockyard offi-
cers. From the post •office a very large number of persons
would be added to those who were entitled to superannuation.
There was a third way in which the bill would add to some
extent to the expense, and that was that it gave superannua-
tion to all those who retired at the age of 60, and made it
c'empulsory on all those who reached the age of 65 to retire
unless they got special permission to remain on account of
their being able efficiently to perform their duties. The
number of such persons would be very inconsiderable. By
the return of the Civil Service Commissioners they would
not be more than 300, and by the return which he received
they would be only 120, so that the number paid off in that
way would not be large. As it was felt to be desirable that
the superannuation should not apply to any persons but
those who were bona fide civil servants, a rule was laid down
declaring that no person was to be deemed a civil servant
unless he held his appointment directly from the Crown, or
was admitted with a certificate from the Civil Service Com-
missioners. He believed that by taking care that none but
persons who were competent, in good health, and who were
under a certain age, were admitted into the service, and
treating them in a fair and equitable spirit, in conformity
with a rule easily understood, they would not only have
made a great step towards the allaying of that uncomfortable
and excited state of feeling which existed amongst the
civil servants at present, but also have done much for
the permanent improvement of the service itself. (Hear.]
With regard to the retirement at the age of 65, that would
not be such a hardship on the civil servants as was repre-
sented. By the scale in operation before 1829 a man was
entitled to retire on his full salary after fifty years' service ;
but by the act of 1834 no man, no matter what his length
of service, could receive a retiring allowance of more
than two-thirds. The result of this was completely to
clog the upper part of the offices. Officers, having no in-
ducement to retire, remained after they were past their
work, and the younger men, who in reality did the duty,
were discouraged and kept back. That was the reason why
an arbitrary rule was adopted ; and, after all, a man of
65, after forty years' service, ought not to object
to retire. One objection to the compulsory retirement was,
that it would throw a great deal of patronage into the hands
of the Government. With regard to the great mass of offices,
they would have no opportunity of jobbing, as the next in
seniority would fill the vacancy. But there was another class
of offices to which the objection might apply; he referred to
such offices as those of the Commissioners of Customs, to
which men were appointed direct who had not risen from the
ranks. To meet the objection, he proposed to exclude all
officers of this class from the compulsory retirement. He
would be ready in committee to give any further explanation
that might be required, and he begged to move that the bill
be committed.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained of the course pur-
sued with regard to this bill, that it had been read a second
time at a very, late hour. He considered that, in justice to
the tax-payers, the scale of salaries ought to be revised, and
he begged to move the resolution of which he had given
notice :—" That all deductions from salaries, in order to
form a fund for superannuations, having been abolished, it
is not expedient to add to the amount of public charge by an
increase in the scale of superannuation."
Mr. GLADSTONE considered that the bill raised some
very serious questions. In the first place he thought his
hon. friend the Secretary for the Treasury made a large de-
mand on the house when he asked them to be satisfied to
proceed t 0 erect a system of pensions and superannuations on
a new basis without knowing what classes would fall within
its purview, or what the probable additional charge would
be. He knew the difficulty which even a Government
department would find in obtaining correct information,
but still the house ought to have the best estimate the
Government could afford, and until it was given the house
would not be justified in proceeding to erect a new system.
He inferred from the statement of his honourable friend
that the information was not supplied, not because it could
not be given, but because the communications between the
Treasury and the different departments on the subject were
not complete. He would not protest against going into com-
mittee, but he must say the house would not be jatified in
assenting to the second reading until they had full and com-
plete information on these points. The house ought to be
clearly aware of what they were doing. They were not
enacting to-day what would come into operation to-mor-
row, and might be altered the day after. They were esta-
blishing a system which would not take full effect for
thirty or forty years, and entering into engagements which
must be scrupulousiy kept, even if they extended. to half a
century. This made it necessary they should have full in-
formation. He feared his hon. friend was inclined to too
great liberality; he seemed scandalised at what he called
an anomaly in the Post-office, that the London letter-carriers
should be entitled to a superannuation whilst those in the
country were not. It might be that in some large towns
the men were in the same position as those in London, who
were constantly on their legs, and gave their whole time to
the duty ; but the great majority of the country letter-car-
riers were men with other avocations, who merely devoted
a couple of hours a day to the work, and had no claim to
superannuation. His hon. friend proposed to introduce a
clause defining the limits of the civil service ; but as it stood
he did not consider it all satisfactory. The system of the
Civil Service Commission was quite new, and the ambiguity
of the clause only confirmed his opinion that it was wrong
to depart from the system of the old acts, where the officers
entitled to the superannuation were always set out in the
schedule. The recommendation of the committee that the
salaries should be revised seemed to haVe been entirely for-
gotten. It was not true that ;the civil servants were illi-
berally or insufficiently paid. They could not contend that
as a body they were unpaid, and it was not just to the tax-
payers that they should get a wholesale increase without
the slightest reference to their duties. Ho hoped they
would have some declaration from the Government as to
what classes it was intended to bring within the provisions
of the act ; and also that before they proceeded to the second
reading they would have an estimate of the probable addi-
tional expense. It was also most desirable to know whe-
ther it was intended to follow up the recommendation of the
committee, and reconsider the rates of salaries. The abo-
lition of the deduction had given them a sweeping whole-
sale rise, totally irrespective of their merits and duties, or
the respective facts of their respective cases.
Mr. 'WILLIAMS thought the house ought not to pro-
coed with the bill until it got some further information. He
agreed that the salaries of the civil servants ought to be
revised. He would also suggest that they should be made
to work longer hours. (No, no.) They now only worked
six hours a day, and he thought that if they were made to
work eight it would do them a great deal of good.
Mr. WILSON knew by experience how difficult it would
be for the Secretary of the Treasury to give any estimate of
the probable additional charge. In London, Dublin, and
Edinburgh, the former had always been entitled to retiring
pensions, and he did not see how a distinction could be
permanently maintained between those places and such
places as LRerpool, Manchester,. and Leeds, No one

would contend that the post-office at Glasgow was not
equally important with the post-office at Edinburgh.
Where, then, were they to draw the line ? Was this sore
to be left open for ever? (Hear.) A largo proportion ,)f
the public servants died, he regretted to say, without
having attained the age for retirement, and he did not be—
lieve the bill would add more than 12 or 13 per cent. to the
amount already paid which was about £lOO,OOO.
Colonel SYKES thought that as the higher public ser-
vants were provided with pensions the lower ought to have
the same advantage. The increase of ten or twelve thou-
sand a year was nothing.compared with the importance of
increasing the good will of the large body of public servants
whose interests were involved in the passing of this bill.
Mr. E. ELLICE (Coventry) regarded the bill as a mere
corollary to the abolition of the system of abatements. He
thought the scale of superannuation now proposed was pre-
ferable to the old scale, because it reduced the allowances of
those who retired early, and increased the allowances of
those who retired at an advanced period of life.
Sir G. C. LEWI S was willing to accept the consequence
of the decision of the house with regard to abatements ; but,
while he approved of the scale now proposed, in so far as it
converted the septennial arrangement into annual payments,
he saw no reason why the scale of allowances fixed at pre-
sent should be increased. If he thought the effect of pass-
ing this bill would be substantially to increase the scale of
payments he should vote for the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
think the effect of passing the bill would be substantially to
increase the scale of payments. No doubt there would be
some slight increase, but that had not been occasioned by any
wishto increase the payments. The scale now proposed was
that recommended by a committee of that house and by a
royal commission, and the reason why there was a slight in-
creasein a portion of it was that the scale had been forraed
withthe view of securing thatannual progression which had
been thought desirable. Generally speaking, this bill only
legalised what was before the practice of the Treasury, a
practice which was adopted in order to correct inequalities
in the existing scale. The right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) was mis-
taken in supposing that the communications between the
Treasury and the other public offices were not complete.
They were complete, and the principle had been established
that those who were to receive superannuation allowances
must have passed through., an examination by the Civil
Service Commissioners. The hon. baronet who proposed
this amendment had endeavoured to alarm the house by
speaking of the immense number of persons who would
receive superannuation allowances if the bill became law.
Thero might be an apparent increase from 16,000 to 30,000,
but this would by owing to the fact that there were included
in the bill a large number of persons who before received
pensions from other sources. The actual increase caused
by the bill would not, he believed, exceed from 6,000 to
8,000 persons, and this addition would be subject to the con-
trol of the Treasury, which would be a sufficient check
upon abuse. The right hon. gentleman the member for the
University of Oxford expressed a hope that before the dis-
cussion closed the Government would give the house infor-
mation on three points ; first, as to the class of persons
whom they proposed to bring under the operation of the
bill ; secondly, as to whether they intended to revise the
public salaries ; thirdly, as to what was their estimate of the
increased charge which the bill would impose on the country.

With regard to the first point, he would observe that all
those who were included in the schedule of the existing act,
and all who had been added since, such as the Poor-
law Commissioners, the officers connected with the edu-
cation department, and others would come under the pro-
visions of this bill; and to these must be added the two
classes of public servants who had been so frequently re-
ferred to in the debate, namely, those connected with the
dockyards and those connected with the Post-office. With
regard to the second point, he would refer to the opinion of
the Royal Commissioners. Those commissioners thought
that a revision of public salaries would.be impracticable,
and was not desirable ; they gave their reasons for arriving
at that conclusion, and the Government concurred in their
opinion. On the third point, that which related to the
increased charge which the bill would throw on the country,
it would be presumption in him to add anything to what
had fallen from the hen. member for Devonport (Mr. J.
Wilson). He believed that the hon. gentleman's estimate
was well founded, and that the increased expenditure
would be rather under than over what he had calculated.
Supposing that to be the case, would the house hesitate for
a moment to pass a bill which was founded on principles of
policy and justice, which had long been required, and fairly
required, by the public, and which, after a considerable
amount of controversy, seemed likely to lead to a satisfac-
tory settlement of the question ? (Cheers.)
The house then divided, when there appeared :
Ayes l3l
Noes
The house then went into committee.
Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.
On clause 3,
Colonel NORTH remarked that under it perrons who
had arrived at the age of 65, though they might be hale
and hearty, were obliged to retire, which might be a great
loss to them.
The clause was agreed to.
Clause 4 was also agreed to, with the following amend-
ment proposed by Sir S. NORTHCOTE, providing that "in
respect of such office or class a offices, the holder may be
entitled to superannuation, though he may not he hold his
appointment directly from the Crown, and may not have
entered the service with a certificate from the Civil Service
Commissioners."
On clause 7,
Sir F. BARING proposed to omit "ten years," and to
in,ert the words, " the number of years he has actually ser-
ved." The effect of the clause as it stood would be, that
persons who were discharged from inefficiency would be in
a better position than those who were kept in the service.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the object of the clause was to
give facilities for getting rid of unnecessary clerks.
The committee divided—
For the amendment BB
Against it... 161-73
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 8 being objected to by Sir F. BARING, was struck
out.
On clause 11,___ _ _

Sir F. BARING censured the principle of allowing civil
Servants, when they attained the age of 60, to retire if they
pleased, although they might still be perfectly able to dis-
charge the duties of their situation.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that they already practically
possessed this privilege at the age of 65, and the clause only
reduced the age to 60. Not to allow the right of retirement
at advanced age only caused a resort to loosely worded
medical certificates. (Hear, hear.) _ _

Mr. MONSELL said that at present persons 65 years of
age had the right to retire. This bill would place persons
of 60 in the same position. Now many persons from 60 to
65 were the most efficient public servants, and as the pre-
sent system had worked well, he did not see why it should
be altered. - -

Sir G. C. LEWIS said the proposed alteration would add
considerably to the burdens of the country, and as he did
not see any reason for the change, he would move that the
age of 65 be substituted for the age of 60.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE defended the clause.
After a few words from Mr. MILES and Colonel NORTH,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
according to the present system the public had the benefit
of 40 years' service from public servants. In the civil ser-
vice of France persons were allowed to retire at 55 years
of age. He trusted the committee would agree to the
clause.
After a few remarks from Mr. Wilson, Mr. Salisbury,
and Mr. Malins, the committee divided. The numbers
were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority --56

Clause 11 was'then agreed to.
Clause 12 passed without remark.
On clause 13, which provides exemptions from compul•
sory retirement at the age of 65, including judicial officers
and others appointed lat in life,
Sir S. NORTHCOTE proposed to include all officers
appointed by order or warrant of the Treasury.
After a conversation,
The amendment was withdrawn, on the understanding
that a proviso should be introduced at a future stage.
Mr. STUART moved that the operation of the clause
should be deferred for three years from the Ist of January
next.

After a few words more it was agreed that clause 13
should be postponed.
On clause 14 Mr. BoviLL moved an amendment, which
was agreed to, providing for the case of a person trans-
ferred from one office to another ; but another amendment
Of his, providing for the case of a renewal of public em-
ployment, was not persisted in.
A slight amendment was made by Mr. RICH in clause 15,
and the other clauses, as far as clause 20, were agreed to.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said he had a clause to add, that
no person should be deemed to be in the civil service of the
state, or entitled to superannuation allowance, unless he
held his appointment direct from the Crown, or had his
salary provided out of the Imperial funds. This clause,
however, was postponed.
The AIRMAN then reported progress, and the house
resumed.

The Highways Bill, East India Loan Bill, Title to Landed
Estates Bill, Registry of Landed Estates Bill, Registry of
Births in Ireland Bill, and Markets in Ireland Bill were
successively postponed.
The Sale of Poisons Bill went pro forma through com-
initte.

The Consolidated Fund Bills, £1,222,389, and the other,
£11,000,000, went throngh committee.
NOTTINGHAM CHARITIES BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
ECTON AND WELTON EXCHANGE BILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
PETITIONS OF RIGHT BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
AFFIDAVITS BY COMMISSION BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
NEWSPAPERS BILL.

Mr. AYRTON wished to know if the Government ob-
jected to this bill, because if they did he would fix the
commitiee for some other day ?
Mr. CAIRNS said he referred to the acts intended to be
repealed. The Government had no objection to the repeal
of the first three acts, so far as they related to newspapers.
But with regard to the 6th and 7th of Will. IV., and the 2d
and 3d of Vic., which required the registration of the pro-
prietors of newspapers at Somerset-house, the Government
thought those acts ought not to be repealed.
Mr. AYRTON said that under these circumstonces he
should postpone the committee till the 6th April.
MILITARY ORGANISATION.
Captain VIVIAN moved that the following members
should constitute the committee on military organisation :
Viscount Palmerston, Lord John Russell, Lord Hotham,
Sir James Graham, the Judge-Advocate, Mr. Edward
Ellice, Mr. Sidney Herbert, Mr. Walpole' Mr. Horsman,
Sir John Ramsden, Sir William Codrington, Mr. Monsell,
Colonel William Patten the Earl of March, and Captain
Vivian. Power to send for persons, papers, and records ;
five to be the quorum.
Mr. MACARTNEY objected to the constitution of the
committee on the ground that a majority was taken from
one side of the house, besides which two of the members
would probably be examined before the committee.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST also objected to the composition
of the committee. There was not enough of military men
on the committee.
Captain VIVIAN said he had no party object whatever
in view in proposing the committee or in selecting the
names.

General PEEL said ho had no objection to the composi-
tion of the committee.
The committee, as proposed, was then appointed.
PUBLIC CONTRACTS.
Colonel BOLDERO moved for a select committee to in-
quire into the principle adopted for making contracts for the
pnblic departments, and the effect which the present system
has upon the expenditure of public money.
Agreed to.