The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 15, 1859.

other Roman Catholic dignitary, by the operation of which
such salute was rendered to him while carrying or accom-
panying the Host in public procession ?
Sir E. B. LYTTON said that there was no such order
as that referred to in existence emanating from this coun-
try. There certainly was an order from Lord Hill
what
; but
there was nothing whatever in practice further than
was calculated to afford that protection to the Roman Ca-
tholic religion which was stipulated for by the treaty under
the capitulation of Malta.
REPRESENTATION OF SCOTLAND.
Sir J. OGILVY asked the Lord Advocate whether he
was prepared to bring in a bill for amending the repre
tation of the people of Scotland, and, if so, when ; and if he
was prepared to bring in a bill this session for sheriff court
accommodation in Scotland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
a bill on the subject was under the consideration of the
Government. (Hear, hear.)
DUTY ON FIRE INSURANCE, &c.
Mr. HADFIELD asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether he intended top ropose measures this session for the
reduction of the duty on fire insurances, and for the revi-
sion and amendment of the stamp acts, and the duties pay-
able under the same.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
the hon. member to postpone his question until he had made
his financial statement. (A laugh.)

GOVERNMENT ADVERTISEMENTS IN NEWS-
PAPERS.—THE RECENT APPOINTMENT OF
A MASTER IN LUNACY.
Mr. G CLIVE—I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether it is the rule to insert Government adver-
tisements in those newspapers which enjoy the most exten-
sive circulation, or, if not, what other rule is adopted ?
There is another question which I desire to ask ; and, in
order to enable me to state the circumstances out of which
it arises, it is necessary for me to move the adjournment of
the house until Thursday next. We have all heard out of
doors that it is proposed to confer the office of a master in
lunacy, which has recently become vacant, on a gentleman
who is possessed of no legal experience, and who has been, I
believe, onlynominally called to the bar. I need not take up
the time of the house by comments on the importance of a
matter of this kind. I have no wish to make an attack on
the hon. gentleman in question, or on the noble and learned

lord--
Sir H. WILLOUGIIBY—I rise to order. The hon.
gentleman should make his motion for the adjournment of
the house.
The SPEAKER—The hon. gentleman has intimated his
intention of concluding with a motion.
Mr. CLIVE--It is, I hope, not necessary for mato disclaim
any intention of giving annoyance in any quarter, but the
appointment in question is of such a nature that it is neces-
sary that I should bring forward the subject at the earliest
possible moment, in the hope that there will yet be time to
have it cancelled. If the appointment of master in lunacyhas
been definitely made, it might be more convenient if I defer-
red my motion on the subject, but I have mentioned it
now in
the hope that there is yet time to put a stop to it, and that
noble and learned lordwill be induced to reconsider the step
he has taken. I need not recall to the attention of the house
the numerous cases which occur in lunacy, in which persons
have been subjected to improper and unjust imprisonment,
and how often there have been cases of relations impTeperly
dealing with persons suffering from aberration of mind. I
myself have had some knowledge of such things as a com-
missioner in lunacy, and my experience has shown me that
it is an office in the exercise of which in a variety of cases
you are called not only to visit, but to judge of the state of
mind of numerous persons, and that such a duty requires
much tact and knowledge of the subject matter with which
you have to deal. Legislation on the subject of lunacy has
been rife of late years, and that matter has been made the
subject of a number of statutes which regulate the systems
to be adopted in lunatic asylums, and every point connected
with the treatment of lunatics. By the first recent act on
the subject two commissioners in binary were appointed
with a liberal salary, and on them devolved the duty of in-
quiry into the cases of alleged lunatics, and presiding when
a jury was required. On the introduction of that act Lord
Lyndhurst, then Lord Chancellor, obtained the consent of
the Legislature to the appointment of the commissioners on
the solemn assurance that they would be properly chosen.
He said " that the remedy he proposed was the appoint-
ment of two permanent commissioners whose duties would
extend over town and country, and who would be men of
learning, ability, and distinction at the bar." (Hear.) I
have reason to suppose that the gentlemen appointed to
these offices after the passing of that act performed their
duties in a manner to justify the statement of the noble and
learned lord. By a subsequent act of the present reign the
commissioners in lunacy were changed into masters, and
on them devolved every duty which had been performed by
the commissioners, and many of those that were formerly
carried on by the masters in chancery. Their duties were
onerous, but they had a salary of £2,000 a-year, with a re-
tiring pension of £1,200. (Hear.) Their duty consists not
only of visiting asylums, but also of conducting inquisitions
as to the state of mind of alleged lunatics, often without a
jury, and to preside when a jury is put into requisition. It
is their duty to moderate the speeches of counsel, and
they preside in cases when the most eminent at the bar
are employed before them. (Hear, hear.) They have
to go through and examine evidence sometimes extend-
ing over eight or ten years, and to take up the history of a
whole life and lay it before the jury—(hear, hear)—and on
them often, if not always, depends the question of the free-
dom or liberty of many persons. In recent cases, such as that
of Sir Henry Meux and Mr. Ruck, whose wife endeavoured
to prove him a lunatic and failed, the question has been
most important and difficult to decide. I will only allude to
Mrs. Cumming's case,(in which the present Lord Chancellor
held a brief. The question then is what are the qualifications
which the men ought to possess in order to fulfil all these
duties. What are the qualifications required for such duties,
and which such a salary as is attached to the office ought to
command. (Hear, hear.) We live in an age of examinations ;
in every department of the public service examinations pre-
vail, and now, even preparatory to a call to the bar, a rigid
examination is required. And yet this is the time chosen for
the appointment of a gentleman who has been only nominally
at the bar, who has never had the education of a lawyer or
practised in the profession in his life. hear, and
cheers.) We can understand the difficulty in which a person
in the high position of the Lord Chancellor is placed. We
can suppose a model Lord Chancellor as he appears in the
distance to the vulgar mind, exercising all possible care and
wisdom, and with a sense of what is due to public justice in
his endeavours to fill such an office. Though it does not re-
quire an examination, we can imagine the Lord Chancellor
subjecting the candidate to an examination in his own mind,
and applying to him every test of his fitness for the office.
He would naturally inquire whether the candidate had any
knowledge of the subject matter with which he would have
to deal, whether he had had any experience of the manage-
ment of
,public hospitals or asylums—(hear, hear)—any
knowledge of law—(hear, hear)—any familiarity with the
law of evidence—(hear, hear)—and any practice in dealing
with juries, so as to enable him to preside effectually over the
tribunal to which he was to be appointed. (Hear, hear.) All
this might be supposed to pasts through the mind of the Lord
Chancellor, and although he might see before him a long row
of Queen's counsel of high eminence in their profession, he
might well feel it difficult to decide who among them could
best fill such an office. What the existing Lord Chancellor
has done lam almost afraid to say. The office in question
has been conferred upon a gentleman of whom it must be
said that unless he derives inspiration from his proximity
to the woolsack, I know not what his qualifications are.
(Hear, hear, and cheers) I have not the honour of the
gentleman's acquaintance, but I am told that he is a most
agreeable gentleman, but as a lawyer he is not fitted for such
an office. The name of the gentlemanis Mr. William Francis
Higgins, a near connection of the Lord Chancellor. The
appointment has caused great dissatisfaction in the profes-
sion and out of doors. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) There
may be yet time to cancel it, and I hope that will be done.
If not, I must leave the house to judge if the appointment
is such an one as ought to have been made. I am informed
that the gentleman in question has passed his whole life as
a clerk in the Colonial-office until September last, when he
was appointed a Registrar in Bankruptcy, and not content
with that, has now been promoted to the higher office to
which I have called the attention of the house. I beg to
ask the hon. gentleman, the Secretary for the Home De-
partment, whether or not Mr. William Francis Higgins
has been appointed by the Lord Chancellor a master in
lunacy ? (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I beg to move that
the house do adjourn to Thursday next.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The hon.
gentleman has put on the paper a question, and by that
means I have received notice of it, and I meant to have
asked my hon. friend, the Secretary to the Treasury, to
answer it. I know very little about the rules under which
the Government advertisements are inserted in the news-
Papers. I have never interfered, except to express an opi-
nion that a greater sum of the public money was expended
n that way than was advisable. (Hear, hear.) My hon.
friend has i)romised that he Will give an answer to that
question. But the hon. gentleman has put another ques-
tion to me, of which he had not given notice--(hear)—and
although he seems tohave conostideared that the circumstances
e
to which it relates are exigent haractr,
yet there was nothing to prevent thee hon.g gentleman, if
was unable to put a notice on the paper,atleaenst frman, he
a private notice of his intention—(hear)--to me, oernitogismmge
friend of the Lord Chancellor, so that thereemi ht
an opportunity of obtaining some acquaintanceg have been
e
facts to which he has referred. (Hear.) It hasal with
been
the custom in parliament to give notice when questionswy aren
to be publicly asked; but when a personal question is raised,
I thought the rule was invariable that gentlemen, to which•
ever side of the house they belong, should not make
quirks of this kind without notice. (Heat.) I can only min;
that the statement of the hon. gentleman may or may not
be accurate ; but I know nothing about it. I know nothing
of the gentleman or of the office to which the hon. member
refers, but if the hon.. gentleman had given m
could have made inquiries on the subject. I cane only add
that having made his statement in an unusual mailer it
will no doubt by some means or other—(hear)—reach the
ears for which it is intended, and some reply will of course
be made to it which I bust will be satisfactory to the hon.
gentleman.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE—Perhaps the house will allow me to
answer the first question put by the hon. gentleman to my
right hon. friend, and which I wish to answer publicly, as
the matter to which it refers entails a great burthen on the
department to which I belong. It is a rule. at the. Treasury
to give to newspapers with the largest. circulation the go-
There is an increasing difficulty
vernment advertisements.
in the Treasury in this matter in consequence of the in-
creased number of newspapers and the decrease of theare not num-
f them
ber of those which are stamped. Many n- h
stamped, and a still greater number are not remitted tnreug
the post. The rule at the Treasury is to revise the number
wof
papers on the government list for advertisements, and e
have selected what we thought the best for the purpose
without reference to politics—(hear)—and including several
portions of what is called the cheap press. This is the rule,
and I am anxious to state it publicly.
Mr. CLIVE—I beg to give notice that I shall repeat my
question on the subject of the appointment of a master in
lunacy to-morrow.
The motion for the adjournment of the house was. then
withdrawn.

HIGHWAYS BTLL.
Thin bill was read a G
second time, and ordered to be corn
rattted.

The second Srag O POISONS BILL.
ng of F this Obill was postponed till Fn'day.
INDIAN FINANCE:—EAST INDIA LOAN.
Lord STANLEY then rose and said—Sir, I have to en-
treat the patience and forbearance of the house while I lay
before it a statement which, however important may be the
facts to which it refers--and I believe hardly any facts can
be more important with reference to the interests both of
India and of England—and however it may be treated, will,
I fear, be somewhat long and tedious. Still, of this I can
assure hon. gentlemen, that I have endeavoured, and shall
endeavour, to compress what I have to say within as nar-
row a compass as is consistent with the necessities of clear
and full explanation. In the first instance, I think I had,
better lay before you an outline of the financial state of In-
dia during the last two years as compared with the years
muddy preceding. The insurrection began, as we are
ail aware, is tho month of May, 1857, At that tS

financial year 1856-7 had just closed. What, then, was the
condition of the finances of India at that date ? Taking the
exchanges at 2s. to the rupee the revenue of 1856-7 was
£33,303,000. The expenditure of that same year was
£33,482,000; making a deficit of £179,000. But it must be
noticed of this deficit—and the same remark applies to all the

preceding years for some time back—that the :e had been laid
out under the— general head of public wc rks a sum of
£2,350,006. Now, in India, the term " pub' 'c works" is com-
prehensive, it includes public buildings, roads, and a great
variety of items of expenditure, many of which yield no
return in a direct form, but may be compared to that out-
lay which, in England, a landholder has to make upon his
property. It is quite impossible to ascertain by any ac-
curate analysis how much of the Indian expenditure on
public works is an outlay in the strict sense of the word, and
how much may be regarded as aninvestment. But assuming
on a rough estimate that credit may be taken for one-half
as remunerative investments, we shall have for the year
1856.7 an apparent deficit of £179,000, but a real surplus—
making the deduction. I have stated—of more than £1,200,000.
That state of things, compared with the accounts of the
previous years, shows a considerable improvement. Of the
ten years preceding the year 1856-57, beginning with 1846-
47, the first three and the last three show a deficit, and only
the intermediate four exhibit a surplus. If Ido not make
myself intelligible, I hope that hon. gentlemen will ask for
any explanation which may be needed. (Hear, hear.) The
deficit of the year 1853-4 was £2,100,000 ; that of 1854-55
was £1,700,000; that of 1855-56 was exactly £1,000,000;
while the deficit of 1856-57, as I have just stated, was
£179,000. We have, therefore, this result, that at the out-
break of the mutiny the equilibrium between income and
expenditure had been very nearly restored ; and that, as I
must remind the house, with an average outlay of
£2,000,000 per annum on works of improvement. We now
come to consider what change has been produced in that
state of things by the disturbances of the last two years.
The accounts for the year 1857-58 have not yet been re-
ceived. They will shortly arrive, and will be laid before the
house in the month of May next. We have, however, a sketch
estimate for that year, 1857-58, which gives the revenue at
£31,544,000, and the expenditure in India at £39,120,000,
making an estimated deficit in India, which we may reckon
with sufficient accuracy at £7,600,000. To that deficiency
must be added an extra expenditure upon troops and stores
in England, which nearly reaches £1,500,000. We have,
therefore, for the year 1857-58 a total estimated deficit
amounting in round numbers to as nearly as possible
£9,000,000. I now proceed to the estimate for 1858-59, the
financial year which will close on the 30th of April next.

The revenue as estimated for that year is £33,016,000, and
the expenditure, including home charges of all descriptions,
is £45,629,000, making a deficit of £12,600,000. Add to that
the deficit of the previous year, which was £9,000,000, and
we have upon the two years since the mutiny began a total
defficiency amounting to £21,600,000. The outlay upon
public works during those two years was only £3,000,000,
instead of £4,000,000, as it should have been according to
the average of previous similar periods. The estimate of
Indian expenditure for the year 1859-60 has not yet been
received, and we have, therefore, only the comparatively
small estimate for home charges, with which I shall deal
more conveniently in a subsequent part of my statement. In
the calculations which I have submitted to the house no ac-
count is taken of the compensation to be made for losses of
private property in the disturbances. There is, as many
hon. gentlemen are aware, a commission sitting in India to
investigate that subject. I have applied officially to know
when it is likely to report, and also, if possible, for an esti-
mate of the amount that will be required to carry out its
recommendations ; but I have not as yet received any reply
to that communication. The question is often put to those
who are concerned in Indian administration in this coun-
try, " Upon what principle do you intend to deal with these
claims for compensation ?" I wish it were in my power to
give to that question a satisfactory reply. It is, however,
quite impossible to lay down any general rule for dealing
with these claims until their amount and their nature are
better known than they are at present. The difficulty of the
case is this, that you cannot, with any regard to justice,
apply one rule to European claims and another to claims
preferred by natives. There are many natives who have
been engaged in the service, or who have taken the part of
the Government, who have fought with us, and who have
suffered loss by plunder in the same manner as Europeans
have, and it is quite obvious that, whatever rule we lay
down for dealing with those claims, no distinc-
tion can be drawn between the claims of native
sufferers and those of European residents. (Hear,
hear.) That is a circumstance which, of course, increases
enormously both the amount of these claims and the dif-
ficulty of dealing with them. I regret that I can offer
no explanation upon this subject except in these general
terms. Against these claims for compensation there will,
however, have to be set a considerable amount which will
be derived from the forfeiture of land and pensions by those
who have been leaders in the insurrection. lam sure the
house will feel that it would be most inexpedient and most
impolitic, even in our present financial position, to attempt
to press these compensations for the sake of revenue.
(Hear.) An amnesty has been declared, and we are bound
by the spirit as well as by the letter of that amnesty.
(Hear.) All the mercy ought to be shown which is consis-
tent with the strict demands of justice ; and it must also be
borne in mind that, even from the property which may be
legitimately placed in our hands, a large portion will pro-
bably have to be deducted to meet the just claims of our
native allies who have stood by us in this emergency.
(Hear, hear.) After sparing all who can put forward any
reasonable claim to be spared, and recompensing all who can
fairly claim recompense, I anticipate that there will remain
in the hands of the Indian Government some, perhaps a
considerable balance to meet the claims arising out of losses
in the course of the mutiny. I propose now to examine as
briefly as I can one or two of the principal items from which
is derived the revenue of India. I need not tell the house
that the chief source of income in India is the land revenue.
In the retumfrom which I have taken the figures that I am
about to read the land revenue is coupled with two other
small taxes—the sayer and the abkara, or spirit duty—and
with some small subsidies from native states. lam unable
to separate these items, but the deduction to be made on
those accounts will be but small. The figures which I
shall submit to the house will show that the land revenue,
with these small items thrown in, constitutes nearly 60 per
cent., or three-fifths, of the whole of the financial resources
of India. That land revenue has grown with the growth
of our territorial possessions. At the commencement of
the present century it amounted to £7,330,000. In the
year 1810 it rose to £13,000,000. It then appears to have
remained stationary until 1840, when it was £13,580,000.
In 1850 it had risen to 17,395,000 ; and is 1856-57, the
first year with which I am dealing, and that immediately
preceding the mutiny, it had reached the amount of
£19,080,000, being the largest amount which it has at any
time realised. In 1857-58, the first year of the disturb-
ances, the land revenue fell to £16,671,000 ; in 1858-59 it
rose again to £18,392,000. Now, sir, it must be observed
cf this item of revenue, that it is by its very nature sus-
ceptible of only a slow and gradual rate of increase. In
those parts of India, as in Bengal, where a perpetual set-
tlement exists, where the landowner is guaranteed against
being at any future time called upon to pay more to the
State than he contributes at present; it is obvious that
there can be no increase of revenue from this source except
in so far as new lands are brought into cultivation. The
same state of things exists, though to a lesser degree,
where permanent settlements—that is, settlements for long
terms of years—have been introduced. Now, the tendency
all over India at the present time is to favour long or per-
manent settlements, as affording a greater amount of se-
curity to the purchaser ; and we must, therefore, consider
this branch of the revenue as being comparatively inelastic.
The increase of which it is capable arises PrillPiPallY from
two causes. One cause of increase, which has been very
active in times past, but of which we may hope there will
be no more just at present, is addition to the British terri-
tory, and consequent increase of the area over which the
tax is levied. The other cause is the taking into cultiva-
tion of lands hitherto waste. That process is likely consi-
derably to increase as railways and other means of com-
munication open up the interior of the country--(hear,
hear)—and we have, therefore, in its results, a probable
source of great wealth at some future time, but one which
no prudent financier can with any approach to certainty
calculate upon becoming available within a short time.
Next in importance to the land revenue is that derived
from opium. The increase in the revenue derived from the
opium monopoly is very remarkable. At the beginning of
the century the revenue derived from opium was £372,000.
In the year 1810 it had amounted to £935,000. In 1830 it
was £1,500,000, and it remained in that state until 1840,
when it was under £1,500,000. In 1850 it had risen to
£3,558,000—an enormous increase, which was attributable
to the new trade which had opened with China. In 1857
the opium revenue was £4,696,709. In 1857-8 it had risen
to £6,443,706, being an increase of £1,800,000 in a year. In
1858-2 the revenue derived from this source had fallen to
£5,195,191. It is obvious that opium is a source of revenue
which varies with the season, with the demand that may
happen to exist for the article, and with the plentifulness
or scarcity of the crop. The house will see how large a
revenuewu involved in the continuation of that trade, and
financial resources
the statements I have made how materally
the
hof India are affected by this source
of revenue.
two separatear.) The house are all aware that the
possession of this opiumgromids monopoly has been objected to on
One argument against it, which I
confess I have
always regarded as devoid of force, has been
ou
removed by the , n&nelisent made this evening, that it
is the intention of the
trade in opium.
(Rev.) r Government to legalise the
argument against the cul-
ture of opium can therefore
bioitnion comes
of the cultivation of opium
system of importation into China,"upon the contraband
pasedwpich has so long pre-
rom those who argue
ivna pre-
vailed.
favour. Theof a othertota opbrjoehcit
in British India. I only mention thisizoenefor the
thofisaarguGZriment really
as considerations
of
pur-
pose of saying that, setting aside the
opium culture in Bengal tKal
theory
ethereypaeresteno twtihmate,tlberedguardty
(Cheers.) I own that I have never heard an
favour of the M ' for
might
urofged in ame Law in
note epqruallohibyitiboen
England. (Cheers.) Whatever may be the abuse of opium
opium being a
in India, it can hardly be greater than the abuse of spirits
is
in this country. (Hear, hear.) So far from
poison to those who use it, I believe it used habitually
but moderately by large classes in India, and probably with-
out any serious injury to their health. (yet!r, he_ar.) There
is, however, consequent upon the legalisation of the opium
Chinese Go
traffic with China, one consideration of which we should not
lose sight, and that is the possibility that the
introduction of opium into China, may legalise
vernment, having now abandoned their objeFtio.ntss toculture
-
in China itself. (Hear, hear.) In that case the revenue
arising from opium cannot fail to be affected. (Hoar) I denot participate in the objections to the culture of opium
India, but I confess it may be a question how far its culti-
vation ought to be kept as a monopoly in the hands of the
Government. It is impossible to deny that upon a general
considerations the principle of that monopoly is open to
grave objections, and many of those who have considered
this subject would be glad to see their way to the possibility
acing away with tho Qom:mut monopol
nand Rubel"

tuting for it a system of excise. (Hear.) I have been in
withty tthhea
tG, a
lo vtehr no
umg ehn
tt
hoef Ibnj
edei
ta
wo
onu d
this
justify s u b -
jeoecnimt ; rutclatimousn
some temporary sacrifice, I do not think it an object of such
pressing necessity as to justify any permanent sacrifice of
revenue. (Hear.) Taking the land revenue at about 60
per cent. of the whole revenue of India, and taking the
large return of 1857-8, from opium, as 20 per cent. of the
remaining revenue, we may flans, without any material in-
accuracy, consider the land revenue and opium as supply-
ing four-fifths of the whole of our Indian finance. The re-
venue from other sources I will review more briefly :—The
salt duty and Customs taken together,
_yielded m 1800,
£1,442,000 ; in 1850, £3,538,000 ; in 1806-7, £4,443,798 ;
in 1857-8, £3,785,782 ; and in 1858-9, £4,398,960. Miscel-
laneous items, including all not classed above, give :—ln
1800, £132,000; in 1850, £1,340,000; in 1856-7, £3,000,000;
and in 1857-8, £2,966,091. Considering the great va-
riety of these sources of revenue the house will pardon
me if I refer them for a more detailed explanation to
the annual accounts for India, in which they will be
found at length. (Hear, hear.) What I have said,
however, shows in a brief summary what is the real and
practical difficulty of Indian finance. First, you have the
land revenue, which, except from two causes, an increase of
territory and an improvement of culture, is comparatively
inelastic compared with our taxes at home. Next you have
the opium revenue, which, as I have shown, is somewhat
fluctuating and precarious, since it depends not only upon
the people and the seasons, but also upon circumstances
connected with the Chinese Government, to which I have
adverted. These two sources of revenue, as I have said,
are nearly four-fifths of the whole. The general result is,
that an increase of material prosperity in India does not
produce upon the revenue the same immediate result as in
England, where so many of your taxes rest upon the con-
suming power of the people. We all know here that if a
tax is taken off the revenue feels the effect in a few months
in an increase of the Excise and Customs' returns. In India,
as I shall be able to show, although the amount of trade
has enormously increased withinthe last 20 years, the effect
upon the revenue has been relatively although not abso-
lutely small. (Hear, hear.) Under the native Governments
which preceded ours many taxes existed that have never
been abolished. There were taxes on sale and purchase,
transit duties, poll taxes, and taxes upon almost every action
of a man's life. In a majority of cases these taxes were
open to the objection that they were unequal, vexatious,
and arbitrary. But they probably had, altogether, an ad-
vantage that is wanting in our system—namely, that all
classes paid more equally than they do at present. (Hear,
hear.) Under British administration large classes in India
have escaped taxation altogether. The opium revenue is
paid by foreigners, the land revenue by the cultivators of
the soil. But except the duty on salt, which is in effect a
poll-tax, and a few Customs' duties, the mercantile classes
in India pay absolutely nothing to the revenue. Various
plans have been laid before the Government for
imposing new taxes. I need not tell the house that
it is a very difficult and delicate matter to attempt
to impose a. new tax in England. But it is far more
so in India than in England, because there is
no doubt that changes in India are attended with danger,
whether they are better or worse, and the acts of the Go-
vernment are viewed, as the acts of a foreign Government
necessarily must be, with jealousy and suspicion. What
is, perhaps, more important to consider is, that in India you
have not the same means of ascertaining what the public
feeling really is, and you have not the same facility for
drawing back from rash and inconsiderate measures.
(Hear.) A large increase of indirect taxes would check
that development which we all hope to see in India ; while
direct taxes, unless imposed with great care and judgment
in a country so vast as India, are very costly to collect and
liable to abuse in their collection. Taking these things
into consideration, we have not ventured to direct the local
Government in India by saying, "You shall lay on this or
that new tax." We hOe thought it right rather to confer
with them; and I h9le it may be possible, as the result of
our deliberations, tb add considerably to our present in-
come ; but I feel I, cannot hold out the hope that with these
additions the amount of Indian revenue will be such as to
approach the present rate of expenditure. Perhaps the
house will allow me to read upon this subject an extract
from a financial despatch addressed to Lord Canning on the
19th of last month :
" A graver duty is, however, imposed on your Govern-
ment by the uncertainty which exists as to the period when
the extraordinary military expenditure caused by the
mutiny will cease or be materially diminished ; and by the
increase, from year to year, of the debt of India, which, if
allowed to continue unchecked, cannot fail at an early
period to prove injurious to your credit. I see no reason
to doubt that the present revenue of India (of about 33
crores) ought, in ordinary times, and by the exercise of a
proper and judicious economy in the several departments,
civil as well as military, to be ample for all purposes of
the Government, including a liberal outlay on
works of improvement. But the question of the
manner in which to meet the heavy disbursements
of an unusual character, which, owing to late events,
will have to be defrayed in each year for some years
to come, both here and in India, is of a wholly distinct
nature. To that question it is now my duty to call your
earnest attention. It has often been asserted that the im-
position of new taxes, a task of difficulty in any country, is
impracticable in India, where the revenue is principally
derived from the land. Nevertheless, the exigencies of the
present time are so emergent that I wish the subject to
receive your mature consideration. It is manifestly ruinous
to continue a system of loans to meet the general expendi-
ture of the State. I need hardly say that, in any measure
which you may consider practicable, either for augmenting
revenue or reducing charge, it is my anxious desire that no
unnecessary check should be placed on the works of public
improvement which were in progress previously to the late
calamitous disturbance, and which, I am gratified to ob-
serve, the events of the mutiny have only partially sus-
pended. It should ever be borne in mind that in India,
where-the main portion of the revenue is raised from the
land, railways, canals, works of irrigation, and other under-
takings which tend to raise the market value of the produce
of the soil, form the best foundation on which to hope for a
permanent increase to the income of the State, and that this
result can only be obtained by a corresponding improve-
ment in the condition of the mass of the people. ,
As no positive instructions as to the exact mode of taxation
have yet been sent out, probably the house will not think
it expedient that I should now discuss as to the greater or
less expediency of one or other plan which may be chosen.
(Hear, hear.) But if the state of India be that, with what-
ever increase of revenue which may be possible, we cannot
hope to meet the present rate of expenditure, there is only
one other resource to which we can look, and that is:dimi-
nished outlay. (Hear, hear.) There have appeared more
recently greater ground for hopes of reduced expenditure,
and I think I can show, by a few figures, that the present
deficiency, enorteUus as it is, of £21,500,000, to which I
have referred;44;*holly due to the extraordinary charges
caused by the insurrection. (Hear.) The military expenses
of 18,56-1857, which I take as an average year, as it did not
vary very much for years before, were £11,546,000. The
military expenses of 1857-1858, which was the first year of
the mutiny, were £18,212,000. The military expenses of
the year 1858-1859, which was the second year of the
mutiny, and the last of which we have any return, were
estimated at £22,598,000, thus showing an increase, in round
numbers, of nearly £18,000,000 in those two years under
the head of military expenses alone. But, in addition to
that, there other losses which are distinctly traceable to the
insurrection. In 1857-1858 there was a loss of revenue by
non-collection of £3,600,000. In 1858-1859 there was a loss
of revenue of £775,000, and there was a loss of treasures
plundered £1,275,000, making together £5,650,000. I
ask the house to listen to these figures because they show
that to these two causes, the war expenses and the losses
consequent upon the war, we may attribute a loss equal to
£23,650,000. The deficit has only reached £21,600,000,and
therefore £2,000,000 have been paid out of the ordinary
revenue of India towards those extra charges. (Hear, hear.)
I do not propose to ask the house to enter into the details
of the civil expenses. Ido not believe that the civil ex-
penses have varied much of late years. They have not un-
dergone any revision since the change of Government, and
it must be obvious to the house that whatever may therein
be effected that change cannot for the moment be produc-
tive of any considerable saving. I do, however, look for-
ward to a considerable future reduction of the civil expendi-
ture, and it may be operated by a double process. One pro-
cess is that which for the last 20 years—ever since the estab
lishment of the uncovenanted service—has been going on to
a certain extent—namely, the substitution of cheap native
agency for the comparatively costly agency of Europeans—
(hear, hear)—and the other process, which has not been so
often adverted to, but nevertheless it is worth while to bear in
mind, is that as India is brought every year nearer to Eng-
land, as the inconveniences of distance and exile tend every
year to diminish—we all know how much less they are than
they were 30 years ago—probably Europeans will be willing
to serve in India at a lower rate of salary than at present. It
is often made a subject of complaint that the salaries of
the covenanted service are fixed at a very high rate. Ido
not think it necessary or possible to deny the fact. I have
no doubt that it is one of the best "paid administrative ser-
vices in the world. (Hear.) Nor do I care to argue that
it may or may not bear revision ; but this I do say, and I
venture to dwell upon the fact as of some importance, that
no one has attempted to deal with this question who has
not been struck with the extreme difficulty of getting men
of high attainments and `good position at home to under-
take the official labour in India. (Hear.) Even with ap-
pointments in this well-paid civil service thrown open for
competition there has not been that eagerness to compete
which might have been booked for—certainly not the same
eagerness which there would have been if the appointments
had been of infinitely smaller value at home. (Hear.) In
one branch of the service, the medical establishment which
is also open to competition, at the last examination the
number of candidates hardly exceeded the number of ap-
pointments, there being, I believe, 39 places and 42 candi-
dates. lam quite sure, and all those who have anything
to do with India will confirm that which I am prepared to
lay down as a general rule—namely, that you can hardly
get professional men who are doing well in this country to
go to India, unless they have the inducement of a double re-
muneration at least. If a test were wanted of the accuracy
of that view I should referto a service entirely unconnected
with the Government—the service of the various railway
companies established in India. Any one who regards the
high civil salaries of India as intentionally extravagant had
better look at the rate of remuneration being paid by these
railway companies, and it will be found that the difference
between the Indian and the English rates of remuneration is
fully as great in that as in the Government service. (Hear,
hear.) If we can hardly hope for any great augmentation of
Indian revenue, nor any large reduction of Indian ex-
penditure, the problem of Indian finance is reduced
to this—how to keep in future years the military
expenditure within its former limits. (Hear, hear.) It
is quite idle to enter into estimates or prospective cal-
culations on that subject. No plan can be framed which
events occurring in India may not overthrow. But there
are some general considerations which encourage in my
mind the hope that when peace is again thoroughly re-
stored we shall be able to do in India with no larger amount
of military force than was necessary before the outbreak.
In the first place, at no former period has the military as-
cendancy of England been as complete as at the present
time. Within the limits of India there is no Power which
will quarrel with us. (Hear, hear.) Whether in India or
this country, we have profited sufficiently by the experience
of the past few years not to feel inclined to pursue that
policy of annexation which has undoubtedly in a great de-
gree been the cause of the present disaster. (Cheers.) There
is another consideration which may lead us to look forward
to the prospective reduction of military expenses. The
British army in India is now only one portion of the entire
abneanryuopfonEanngyland. When telegraphic communication is
cobefmoprlee:e:Hweaitrh.) thseotfaacgiamli.ti,esm. which steam is giving every
day, it is obvious that the distance is lessened, and that our
whole military resources are in a position to be ,brought to
which altndi
advert, Indian disturbance much more rapidly than
of railway
present
is
only India itself. Twhille sys-
temgrmeaatshort communication to which I shall
in
time bring together the entir peninsula,, and the troops
there will then be efficient in many quarters almost simul-
aitanweaoyuss lboy.rnTehienn,inalgdai,niolowwelarhavgee toapraeli ofm
our dominions
daonmdiniit
oisusniont
ism composedeconiolidaotfedproanvind incorporated
cwohirpochrahtead unvehadrcellryohurad rule.time
Within the last 20 years we have added the S • d
to become co
Punjab, cm e,
'egu, Nagore, and Oude, and it is obvious that a province

newly acquired by force requires a much larger garrison to
defend it than it is likely to require 20 or 30 years after-
wards. I entertain the hope that the present increase of mili-
tary expenditure will not be of a permanent character. That
hope is founded upon the prospect which we have of peace
and tranquillity, upon the greater facility with which we
can bring our resources to bear, and upon the reduced
amount of forces which will or ought to be required to keep
in order those provinces which have become fairly consoli-
dated into our system of government. But the house will
naturally wish to know what, according to the latest returns,
is the present strength of our forces in India as compared with
a recent year. On the Ist of January, 1857, the European
troops in India were 45,522 ; by the last returns they were
91,590. The native troops on the Ist of January, 1857,
were 232,224 ; by the last returns they.were 243,956. So
that the European forces in India have been doubled, and
the native troops, notwithstanding all that has taken place,
have been of necessity rather augmented than diminished.
But it is necessary to say that many thousands—l am not
prepared to state the precise number—who appear as part
of the native army are local levies, raised to meet the emer •
gency of the moment, and should not be considered as form-
ing a portion of our permanent force in India. (Hear, hear.)
I come now to an important branch of my subject—the
present state of the Indian debt. I may mention, for the
sake of being intelligible, that when I speak of the Indian
debt, I include not only the home debt of India but all
debts bearing interest for which the revenues of India are
liable. It is common to hear of the rapid increase of the
Indian debt, and perhaps the house may not be aware that,
however great the increase of that debt absolutely con-
sidered may be, yet relatively—which is a fair way of test-
ing it—to the amount of the revenue upon which it is a
charge, their has been up to the year 1856-7 no increase what-
ever since the beginning of the century. That can be shown
by a few plain figures. In 1800 the debt was £16,600,000,
and the revenue £9,200,000. In 1810 the debt was £29,200,000,
and the revenue £16,600,000. In 1820 the debt was
£37,000,000, and the revenue £21,300,000. In 1830 the debt
was £45,000,000, and the revenue £29,900,000. In 1840 the
debt was £33,800,000, and the revenue £19,500,000. That
reduction of debt was due to the application of the commer-
cial assets of the Company. In 1850 the debt was £31,900,000
and the revenue £25,800,000 ; while in 1856-7 the debt was
£55,000,000, and the revenue £33,300,000. The house will
see that only once in all that series of years has the debt ex-
ceeded the income of two years. It was below the revenue
of two years at the beginning of the century ; it was below
it in 1856-7; and only at one period—l think in 1850—it
had increased at a greater ratio than the revenue. It is re-
markable to see, generally speaking, how nearly the pro-
portions of the two remain the same. Since the late out-
break the state of affairs has become altered. The funded
debt, including every liability of which up to the present
time we are aware, is £74,500,000. Of that amount the home
debt is £15,000,000, and there has been raised in India
£59,500,000: The amount raised in India is held by natives
in the proportion of two-fifths to three-fifths held by Euro-
peans. From the total amount of debt I have omitted a sum
of £7,000,000, because, as no claim can be made upon it, we
cannot consider it in any sense a charge:upon the revenue. I
may advert here to a measure, sanctioned in the course of
last year, for allowing the payment in England, by bills
upon the Government of India, of the interest of the Indian
debt. That measure was adopted at the instance of the
Chamber of Commerce in Calcutta, and of mercantile bodies
here. It was recommended to us in strong terms by the
Government of India, on the ground that it would tend
to increase the value of these securities. Now, when that
measure is criticised it is common to say that it will have
the effect of enabling the natives more readily to get rid of
their liabilities, and inducing Europeans to take their place
and that thus the Government of India will lose the hold
which it at present possesses upon the interest and fidelity
of native capitalists. I do not believe that, even as a matter
of argument and theory, that criticism is well founded.
Whatever brings the competition of Europeans into the
native market necessarily has the effect of raising the gene-
ral credit of the Government, and therefore ofincreasing
the value of its securities to the natives who hold them.
(Hear, hear.) Nothing will induce natives to lend their
money freely to the Government so much as seeing that
Englishmen resident in this country have confidence in their
own securities, and the contrary opinion would undoubtedly
produce distrust in the native mind. (Hear.) But, to turn
from theory to what has actually happened, we find that,
though the time during which this measure has been in
operation has been very limited, the proportion of native
subscriptions, so far from diminishing, has rather increased.
Between the 2d of June and the 21st of December last, a
period of about seven months, the European subscriptions
amounted to £3,229,000, and the native to £2,412,000, a
good deal more than the general proportion which has
hitherto existed— viz., two-fifths for natives to three-fifths
for Europeans. (Hear, hear.) I may here mention the
total amount of debt incurred by the Government 'of India
since the let of May, 1857; in other words, since the out-
break of the mutiny. There has been raised in India by
the 51 per cent. loan £8,712,000, the home bond debt has
produced £3,105,000, and the debenture loans £7,997,000,
giving a total of £19,814,000. Now, reverting from the pre-
sent to a period more remote, it is worth notice how mate-
rially in the course of the present century the credit of the
Indian Government has improved. In 'lBOO, upon the
comparatively small amount of debt which then existed,
the Government had to pay 8i per cent. The average
amount now paid upon the whole of the present debt is
little more than 41 per cent. (Hear, hear.) It ought to
be remembered, when we are considering the question of
the future solvency of the Indian Government, that its
debt of £74,500,000 has been incurred in what has been
little else than one constant series of wars. (Hear, hear.)
There have been a Mahratta campaign, a Nepaulese war,
and a Burmese war, which alone cost £15,000,000. Then
we had the Affghan expedition, wars in Scinde, the Pun-
jaub campaign, a second Burmese war, and now we have
the present insurrection. I shall not go into the question
how far all of these wars were inevitable ; but I say
that when we compare the amount of liability incurred
in India in consequence of that almost uninterrupted suc-
cession of wars with the financial difficulties of almost any
European State, our only wonder will be, not that the In-
dian debt has reached its present amount, but that it is not
a good deal larger. (Hear.) Let me now call attention to
a topic which ought to be considered in connexion with this
subject, the position of the English Exchequer in regard to
Indian debt. lam aware that the uniform policy of the
Parliament and the Government of this country has been
to decline all responsibility in regard to the debt of India,
which has been held to be a charge only on.the Indian Ex-
chequer. wear, 130.1.ing with tha present state of
affairs, I may say at once that I am not going to recommend
any change in that policy. (Cheers.) I know well the
alarm which any such proposition would create, and I know
the refusal which it would inevitably receive. (Hear, hear.)
But this is a question which will recur again and again, and
which will have to be considered in the future as well as in
the present. Observing, then, that I do not speak now with
any reference to practical action at present, I would ask the
house seriously to consider how far, looking at the fact that
more than £50,000,000 has been contributed by English
capitalists, it would be morally possible for this country
altogether to repudiate the Indian debt without shaking its
own credit ? (Hear, hear.) I would likewise ask the
house to bear in mind, that if ever the time should come
when the established policy in this respect should undergo
a change, and when a material guarantee should be given
for these liabilities, that guarantee would operate to reduce
the interest paid upon the Indian debt by not less than
£750,000, or even £1,000,000, which, formed into a sinking
fund, would go far to pay off the whole. At present India
on the one hand is paying a great deal more in the way of
interest than with the assistance of this country she need
pay, and we on the other hand are apt to consider that as we
have nothing to do with it the amount is indifferent to us,
though after all it is a matter of doubt whether practically we
are so entirely free from all responsibility. I will ask the house
now to consider what is the amount of burden to which
the people of India and the people of England are subjected
by their debts. You may take two tests by which to
ascertain that. You may take first—and probably it is the
fairest test—the ratio which the: interest paid bears to the
total revenue. That interest in India is about £3,500,000
on an income of £33,000,000, or little more than 10 per
cent. ; in England the proportion of interest on debt to the
gross revenue is neaidv two-fifths, or 40 per cent. This
comparison is taken, too, at a most unfavourable time, when
England has been enjoying an almost unbroken peace of 45
years, whereas in India there has been nothing but a series
of wars. Looking at it in another light—the pressure on
the population—whilothe amount per bead on the 130,000,000
of people included in the area of our Indian taxation
is not more than 145., in England it is £2B per head. Ido
not mean at all to compare the material resources of the
two countries, but looking to the future as well as the pre-
sent, wherever you have what you have in India, a fertile
people, I say you have there the
qt. (Hear, hear.) Therefore,
when we are told of the comparative poverty of the Indian
materials
andriai sf an
or infudtuursteri pourossperi
people, it is a fairquestion to ask whether the continuance
of that comparative poverty is necessary. (Hear, hear.) I
wish now to show how far at the present time and for some
time past the development of the material resources
of India has proceeded, and I cannot but think that upon
that subject the public mind is not well informed. (Hear,
hear.) I take the last 20 years, beginning from 1837, and I
aggregate imports and exports for that time, I find that in
the first period of five years ending
divide them into periods of five years each. Taking the
1842, the aggregate im-
ports into India were £43,500,000 ; in the next period, end-
ing 1847, £62,500,000; in the next period, ending 1852,
£69,500,000 ; and in the last period, ending 1857,
£101,500,000. (Hear, hear.) That estimate is taken
before the commencement of the insurrection, so that
it cannot be affected by the import of increased sup-
plies for the large reinforcements of European troops which
have lately been sent to that country. Taking next the
aggregate exports from India, I find that they were in the
five years ending 1842, £63,200,000; in the five years end-
ing 1847, £83,378,000; in the five years ending 1852,
£91,000,000; ; and in the five years ending 1857,
£102,700,000. (Hear.) We have, therefore, these plain
general results, that within the last 20 yearsthe exports
from India have nearly doubled, and the imports into
India have more than doubled. I have not been able to
ascertain as exactly as I could have' wished the compara-
tive rate of increase in the exports and imports of the va-
rious European nations, but I believe I am not wrong in
saying that the doubling of them in 20 years is a greater
ratio than that of any European nation except England
and France. (Hear, hear.) Take another indication of the
commercial progress of India—the tonnage of vessels en-
tered inwards and cleared outwards at the various ports.
I find that the aggregate tonnage in the five years ending
1842 was 10,700,000 ; in the five years ending 1847 it
was 12,700;000; in the five years ending 1852' it was
nearly 16,000,000, and in the five years ending 1857 it
was just 19,000,000, showing an increase of 19 to 10, or
nearly double in the 20 years. (Hear, hear.) I take
another test, not so general and comprehensive in cha-
racter, but selected because it bears ' upon a ques-
tion on which a great deal is said at present—
the amount of cotton sent from India to England. In
the five years ending 1842, the amount was 352,000,000 lb.;
in the next five years, 358,000,0001 b. ; in the next five
years, 494,000,0001 b. ; and in the five years ending 1857,
863,000,0001 b., showing an increase of export in that very
item of cotton about which so many complaints are made—
I am not complaining of them, for no doubt their results
are very beneficial—of no less than sto 2. Taking a
more limited and recent period, the annual average
increase of imports in the last five years into the Bengal
Presidency has been £956,000, and of exports £445;000.
During the last five years the annual average increase • f
imports into the Bombay. Presidency has been £959,000;
of exports £518,000. Taking the town of Calcutta
alone, I find that the imports there were in 1852-3
£6,387,000, and in 1856-7 £13,959,000. The imports into
the town of Bombay have increased from £7,000,000 in
1852-3 to £11,632,000 in 1856-7. Summing up this part of
the case, and taking all the tests together. I find that the
trade of one capital has more than doubled in five years,
and that of the other increased by one-half. The cotton
supply has increased at a ratio of 5 to 2, the tonnage and
the exports have nearly doubled, and the imports have more
than doubled. We are justified in saying, therefore, that
the producing and mercantile interests of India have not
been so entirely neglected as it has been sometimes the
custom to assort. (Hear, hear.) From the question of past
increase in trade, I come now to consider what is to be done
forlhe development of the future trade of India, and first
of all the extent to which and the system under which pub-
lie works are being carried ou in India, We are Often

asked when we speak of, an average annual expenditure of
£2,000,000 upon these works, what result have you to show?
In some degree the figures which I have quoted will supply
an answer to that question, but with regard to the much
larger portion we are in the position of the cultivator at this
period of the year—the seed is sown, but the crop is yet to
come. The Government has done much itself in this respect,

and it has also encouraged private efforts. The works Upon
the largest scale, and upon which the largest expenditure
has been incurred, are the railways. The length of lines
sanctioned is 4,847 miles; the length in course of construc-
tion is 3,038 miles; and the length opened for traffic is 559
miles. In the course of the year, if our calculations are
verified, there will be 747 additional miles opened ; in 1860,
279 miles more ; in 1861, 296 miles more ; that is to say, if
these calculations are verified, which I have no reason to
doubt, within three years from the present time more than
3,100 miles of railway will be open. I think that this
state of things, showing as it does that for every mile, of
railway open there are six miles under construction,
justifies the statement which I made to the house The other

lnight that we are now arrived just at that very point of
time when the outlay on these works is the greatest, and
the return upon them is the least (Hear, hear.) Now,
let us see what is the amount of liability incurred by
the Government of India on account of railways. In the
first place, the land is given by the Government, and
guarantees—usually at the rate of 5 per cent—are also given
to companies in almost all cases, the exceptions being very
few and to a trifling amount only. The total capital guaran-
teed is £39,731,000. Of that amount £19,221,000 has been
paid up. We may say in round numbers, therefore, that the
total amount of our liabilities for these guarantees is
£40,000,000, and that one-half has been paid up; that the
total amount of interest for which we shall become liable is
£2,000,000, and that at present the interest paid is £1,000,000.
But I do not believe that those liabilities can be regarded in
any sense as burdens upon the Government of India. (Hear.)
Setting aside entirely the enormous indirect advantages
which will accrue to the Government from opening up the
country, I believe it will be found that on the working of the
lines themselves there will be rather a gain than otherwise.
In this view I am fortified by Lord Dalhousie, the author of
the railway system in India., who has recorded his opinion
that when once a line is finished the Government will pro-
bably not in any case be called upon to pay interest upon I
any of these guarantees—that is to say, his estimate is that
in every case the profit upon these lines will exceed 5 per
cent. I have endeavoured to ascertain what materials we
have for forming a conclusion upon the subject from the
experience we have. Those materials as yet are very scant.
In the Bengal Presidency 121 miles of railway, which are
open from Calcutta to Raneegunge, pay 7 per cent. By the
last returns the traffic upon that line has nearly doubled
since 1856, and taking that into consideration—although no
doubt it is a good deal due to the conveyance of troops and
military stores—it bears out the opinion to which I have re-
ferred. In Bombay, upon 88 miles of railway which have
been opened, the returns are 4t per cent. With respect to
the Presidency of Madras I do not know what the returns
are; but it is fair to bear in mind that we are not at present
in a position to judge of what the receipts may ultimately be,
because when only a small section of a line is finished, and it
ends abruptly, perhaps in a jungle instead of having an im-
portant town for its terminus, we cannot expect that the
traffic will be anything like what it will become when the
line is finished from end to end and great inland markets
are by its means connected with the coast. On the East In-
dian lines the cost of constructionlhas averaged £11,500 per
mile, which is about one-third of the English average ; but
then the land has cost them nothing. When this system of
railway communication which is now being carried out shall
be completed, we shall have four great arterial lines of rail-
way, opening up the whole of India. One from Kurrachee
to Hyderabad will connect the Indus with the sea, opening
up the Punjab and Central Asia to trade. Another will
descend from Lahore, through the North-West Provinces,
down to Calcutta, and on eastward to Dacca. A third, tra-
versing the centre of the continent, will link Calcutta with
Bombay ; and a fourth will unite Madras and Bombay, and
thus open up the entire south. (Hear, hear.) It is said that
it is more important for the Governmentof India to complete
the undertakings which they have commenced than to em-
bark in new ones. But upon new works something, though
not much, has been done. Last July a branch line was
sanctioned, connecting Bangalore with Madras. Bangalore
is an important military station ; it stands on high table
land ; the climate is healthy, and it opens large and attrac-
tive tracts to settlers. In November also a guarantee was
given for the formation of a line from Calcutta to Matlah, a
distance of only 25 miles, which will give to Calcutta a new
port, and will effect a considerable saving in time in getting
to the sea. Surveys also are being commenced for trunk
lines through Oude and Rohilcund by the Oude Railway
Company. A line from Coringa to Berar also has been
projected, and is referred to the Government of India. It
will open up the cotton districts, and the only objections to
it are that it will be a competing line with the navigation
of the Godavery, and that the district will be opened
to the Bombay side by another line. I mention these
because they are the principal works which have been
brought under the consideration of the Government for
some time back, and to show that what could .be done has
been done to facilitate the advance of works already in pro-
gress. But any difficulty that there may be in that respect
does not rest, I apprehend, with the Government, but with
the companies, who do not always find it easy to obtain the
necessary funds for carrying on their works. With regard
to other public works, not railways, I will mention the most
important lately sanctioned :—First, the Madras Irrigation
Company has received a guarantee of 5 per cent. upon
£1,000,000 ; second, at Madras a pier has been ordered at
a cost of £103,000, which is to be completed in two and a-
half years • third, at Kurrachee works costing £140,000 are
sanctioned for improving harbours, the period for complet-
ing which is spread over three or more years; fourth, plans
have been directed to be prepared for improving the harbour
of Sedashevaghur, south of Goa, and connecting it with the
country inland ; fifth, a plan for rendering the Godavery
navigable for a distance of 300 miles is referred to Madras ;
and; sixth, there has been a considerable outlay upon small
steam cargo-barges and tugs for the navigation of the Ganges
and Indus-15 miles in all. (Hear.) I do not mention
smaller undertakings, which, though of local importance,
are of no general interest ; but there are two plans which have
been taken in hand by the Government which are of so im-
portant a character that I am bound to call attention to
them. One is the establishment of telegraphic communica-
tion between this country' and India. After the failure of
the experiment with the Atlantic cable it was impossible
not to feel that the undertaking presented a greater amount
of difficulty and a greater risk of failure than had been at
first anticipated. But, whatever the difficulty or the risk
of failure, still the object appeared to the Government to be
one of so much importance, and the saving that would be
effected in every way so great, that we thought it to be
our duty to incur that expenditure. A guarantee of 4f
per cent. upon a capital of £BOO,OOO was accordingly
given, and operations were begun at once. lam told
that the cable is nearly ready, and the promoters anti-
cipate that they will be able to lay it as far as Aden
by June next. Beyond Aden, where the line touches the
southern coast of Arabia, which is inhabited by wild tribes,
there is more risk, and the difficulties are considered
greater. We have, however, communicated with the Bom-
bay Government, and directed them to offer all the assist-
ance in their power. But we do not rely upon a single line.
The Turkish Government have initiated a line of their own
from Constantinople to Bussaret, and the Indian Govern-
ment on its own account, or some private company, will
undertake the completion of that line on. to Kurrachee. In
this way the risk of interruption will be less. The other
scheme to which I have referred, and which has received
the sanction of the Government, relates to the supply of
civil engineers for the East India -service. Hitherto civil
engineering in India has been carried en exclusively in one
of two ways. Either military engineers—themselves not
always conversant with civil duties—have been taken from
their professional pursuits for that purpose, or engineers
have been engaged and sent out from England, arriving in
India, for the first time in their lives, and having there,
owing to the difference of climate, of the supply of labour,
and of material, a great deal to learn. It has been found ne-
cessary too to pay these gentlemen at exceedingly high
rates, because they had to be renumerated both for the work
they did and 'for the interruption of their professional career
at home. Both these systems having been found defective, I
propose new to appoint a special engineering service. The
appointments will be competed for by young men of a cer-
tain age. They will be required to have passed through a
certain practical training here, and they will be sent to
India on a small salary to acquire further instruction in
their duties. They will then be regularly taken into Go-
vernment employ for life, with pensions at the same rate,
probably, as are given to other uncovenanted servants. I
believe that the effect of this plan will be to
produce a considerable saving of expense, and certainly
an increase of efficiency in that corps. There is no
doubt we shall be able to find work for them, and •ne
advantage of the proposal, which will be shortly
laid before the public, is that it will not involve on the part
of the Government any permanent outlay ; it will not in-
volve the establishment of any college or institution, but it
can be carried out almost at a moment's notice, without
giving any one a ground of complaint or creating any per-
manent charge. lam not willing entirely to passfrom this
subject of public works without alluding, however briefly,
to the amount of return which has been obtained from some
of a particular class of works—irrigation, which have been
already completed in India. (Hear.)
" The Coleroon aricah, opened in 1836-7, cost £21,700 ;
the average net profit yearly for 16 years was £25,700—
about 120 per cent. The Godavey aricah was opened in
1852-53; cost £203,000; caused increase of revenue by
£44,000 ; and in a year of drought saved produce to the
value of £400,000."
I do not mention the Jumna nor the Ganges Canals, which
have been opened about a year and a half, the amount of
profits from which is very great, but I am not in a position
now to state it exactly. Taking the small examples, we
have one canal in Scinde, the Fordwak, of eight miles in
length, which cost £2,700, andpaid £5,000 in the first year.
Another paid 58 per cent. of its cost the first year, and a
third, which cost £3,600, produced £5,000 in the five twelve
months. (Hear, hear.) Of course, in quoting these in-
stances, I do not mean to say that all works of irrigation
will be equally productive. I have no doubt that in these
works money may be thrown away if they are not done in
a proper manner ; but these instances show—for they are not
necessarily exceptional instances—that if the sites for such
works be judiciously selected, and the works themselves
be properly executed by engineers who understand the
country, there is a possibility ofsome returning so enormous
a profit as not only to cover their own cost but to repay the
expenses of others which may be less successful. I feel that
I am trespassing upon the patience of the house—(cheers)--
but I cannot avoid in a statement such as I am now making
touching upon a question which is of hardly less interest
and importance than that of public works, and which in an
equal degree has a direct effect upon the financial resources
of India—l mean the question of the tenure of land in
India—(hear, hear)—as applied to colonisation by Euro-
peans and the occupation of land by natives of India. It
is no light matter to attempt to deal, however, slightly, with
the customs of more than 130,000,000 of people, those cus-
toms varying greatly in each
.presidency, and often varying
to some extent in each district. All those who have any
acquaintance with Indian affairs are familiar with the great
systems of land tenure which prevail in that country. Thero
is the zeniindarysystem in Bengal, under which there is a
class of large lanilholders with occupiers under them ; the
system in the North-West Provinces, under which the
whole community is responsible to the Government for the
tax ; and the ryotwar system in Madras, where the tax is
collected from the individual landholders. To attempt to
alter any one of these systems, to change one for another,
would be, I believe, an impossibility, or at least a fatal mis-
take. Whether they are good or bad, those systems of
tenure exist—they are rooted in native habits and ideas,
and what we have to do, I apprehend, is taking these
tenures as they exist, or rather starting from them, to see
what is the utmost amount of security which they admit
of. There is one class of lands with which the State has
power to deal, and is not hampered by any arrangeinents
formerly existing. I mean lands which are unoccupied
and are claimed by the Indian Government. I believe the
house will feel that it is most important to open these
lands to European colonisation. (Hear, hear.) The ex-
tent of them is more limited, I believe, than is generally
supposed,, but in Assam, in the Sunderbuud, in the Neil-
gherries they do exist. Hitherto the custom of the Govern-
ment in India has been to give allotments of theso lands
upon easy terms for long periods, but those periods have
never extended to perpetuity. Who great object of those

Europeans who apply for these lands we find to be to obtain
the fee simple ; in fact, to possess them for ever. (Hear,
hear.) They are willing to pay a sum down, but they wish
to be free from future interference with their rights.
That subject was considered here, and the desire was
considered to 113e:reasonable, and, if the house will allow me,
I will read an extract from a despatch which I will layupon
the table, dated December 22 :

"In such districts, where large tracts of unreclaimed
land are to be found absolutely at the disposal of the State,
rules have already been promulgated under which settlers
can obtain allotments on very easy conditions and for long
terms of years ; but in no case, I apprehend, extending to a
grant in perpetuity. In such cases I desire that you will
take such steps as may seem to you expedient for the pur.
pose of permitting grantees to commute the annual pay-
ments stipulated for under the rules (after a specified period
of rent-free occupancy) for a fixed sum per acre, to be paid
on possession of the grant. In all other respects, and par-
ticularly in regard to the conditions which provide for a
certain proportion of the land to be cleared and brought
under cultivation within specified periods, the rules will of
course remain unaltered."

That is to say, what we propose is that the tenant, after
certain improvements are made, may, upon the payment of
a sum of money, become the absolute proprietor of the land.
(Hear, hear.) No doubt a new system will require careful
watching. There may be difficuties to overcome at first,
but I am confident that such a compliance with what is the
universal demand of Europeans who desire to settle in
India will lead to a great increase in the application of
British capital by giving greater permanence to their occu-
pations. (Hear.) In Bengal there exists a perpetual settle-
ment by which the landowners are free from all demands
except the payment of an annual sum. It such cases it is
quite clear that there can be no loss to the revenue of the
State if these annual payments are commuted for a sum
down, and that sum applied to the extinction of debt. The
effect of the commutation will be to give to the landholders
possession of the land for ever, free from all future charge.
In any arrangement of this kind it will be necessary that
existing sub-tenures and rights of all descriptions shall
be treated with consideration. We have pointed out, in
the despatch from which I have already quoted, to the
Indian Government, the advantage of this, process. We
have pointed out the policy of giving a feeling and
position of ownership to those who are now, in some sense,
tenants of the State. We have indicated the wisdom of
giving them material interests in our rule, as by so doing
we shall give to the native landowners a direct interest in
the permanence of our rule—(hear)--because it is clear that
where a commutation of this kind has taken place and a
perpetual exemption from future taxation been given to the
landholder, he cannot reasonably expect that such immu-
nity so acquired will be respected by any Government
but that with which it has taken place. We have not gone
so far as to instruct the Government of India to carry into
effect this process of commutation, but we have indicated
that our views were favourable to it, and invited their re-
specting it. In those parts where the settlement is not
perpetual the difficulties in the way of a commutation of
this kind are, although perhaps not insuperable, at least
much greater. Where the settlement is perpetual the
Government has no power to demand increased payments,
and so there will be difficulty in commuting the annual
payment ; but where the tenure is for 30 years, at the
end of which the State has the power to increase the
land-tax, we should, by allowing redemption, preclude
ourselves from gaining by ,future improvements. There
is one subject that was partially adverted to the other
night which deserves mention upon this occasion, because
it concerns land revenue—l mean the Enam inquiries going
on in India. I need scarcely tell the house what Enam
means. The word means bounty, and is a term applied to
grants of land, or other exemptions from land-tax, made by
our predecessors as acts of favour or rewards for good ser-
vice. These enams vary much as to the rights they con-
vey. Some are perpetual and unlimited'; others—the more
numerous class—are limited to a family, and sometimes
depend upon the performance of certain duties. By these
grants a large portion of the land revenue was alienated;
but, besides that which was so alienated, there have been
many forgeries and frequent disputes of title, and thirty
years ago an inquiry was instituted into the subject. At
the time this inquiry was commenced much less was
known by Europeans, official or unofficial, of the system of
land tenures in India than is now known. The execution
of the work was often intrusted to officers of no great expe-
rience, and I do not deny that many harsh and many un-
wise acts were done. (Hear, hear.) In Bombay, in 1843,
a commission was appointed for the purpose of bringing
these proceedings into something like a regular form, and of
expediting them by special machinery. Charges were made
last year before a committee of this house affecting the
manner in which the objects of that commission had been
carried out. Now, lam not about to enter into a vindica-
tion of the proceedings of the commission, but as those
charges have been publicly-and extensively made against
the members of the commission, and have no doubt made
some impression on the public mind, I think it only right
to state that Colonel Cowper, who is at the head of that
commission, denies in the most unqualified terms many of
the charges brought against him. He says that not merely
in matters of opinion, on which every one, of course, has a
right to form an opinion, but that in matters of fact the
proceedings of the Bombay Commission have been very
-greatly misrepresented. (Hear, hear.) I think it only right,
as he is a public officer and has no other means of denying
the charges, that this statement should be given to the
public. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, I wish to guard
myself against pronouncing any opinion on the question.
The evidence is not yet before me, and until it be it is im-
possible that I should do more than make the statement
which I have now made. I believe it has been said that
steps have been recently taken in this country to revise the
proceedings of the Bombay Commission. Now, that is not
the case. No instructions have been sent out from home
upon that subject, and no report has yet reached us. But
I believe it is true that steps are now being taken to arrange
something in the nature of a compromise between the Go-
vernment and the holders of these"enams," by which the
title to the lands will be confirmed upon the payment of a
moderate yearly sum. I have received this, as I wish the
house to receive it, in an unofficial form ; and, therefore, I
cannot speak positively upon the matter, but I believe
the statement to be true. Now I come to the case of
Madras. Complaints were made against the late Court of
Directors with respect to the despatch sent out by them
to institute an inquiry in the Presidency of Madras, but I
submit that for that despateh I am as responsible as the
late Court of Directors. I stated to the house the other
night that on the appointment of Sir Charles Trevelyan as
Governor of Madras the Government thought it right to
inform him that the inquirywould be suspended,in order that
he might have an opportunity of dealing with the subjects
of inquiry as he thought best. I may now mention that I
have his authority for saying, that when his appointment
took place I offered to him, if ho thought the inquiry was
unjust, either to suspend it or to put an end to it altogether.
(Hear, hear.) No man in India, I believe, understands
better than Sir C. Trevelyan this complex subject of land
tenures. (Hear.) He was one of the earliest of those who
were engaged in inquiring into the subject. I believe the
inquiry can be placed in no better hantls. Sir C. Trevelyan
without hesitation and without delay gave his opinion that
the inquiry ought to go on, but he said that care must
be taken to guard it from the abuses which have oc-
curred in former cases. He believes that to put an end
to it would be a mistake, and that if properly con-
ducted it would be the means of producing great benefit to
the people, and would give additional security to private
individuals. (Hear, hear.) I believe that there has been a
good deal of misrepresentation of the motives which have
led to setting on foot an inquiry of this kind. The popular
notion is that the only object is to increase the revenue by
seizing the property of any man who happens to have a flaw
in his title. Now, the real fact is that the main object of
this inquiry is, not to improve the revenue—not to disturb
titles, but, on the contrary, to confirm them, whereby the
value of the land will be greatly enhanced. Every land-
owner, as matters now are, is liable to have his title ques-
tioned upon succession, and the value of his holding is
thereby depreciated. Our object is to give him what in this
country would be called a Parliamentary title—to give him
a title as to which no question or controversy can hereafter
arise. Further, a revenue survey and assessment of the
whole :presidency is at this 'lament in progress, and until
that has baen completed we cannot assess, as we know not
which land is free from assessment. What are you to do in
such a case ? If you postpone the survey you postpone the
period at which fixed assessments are levied. You merely
increase the difficulty by that postponement. Of course it is
easy to say you ought to confirm all the titles of all the
lands which are in" enam;" but obviously to confirm indis-
criminately every title which anybody might claim as being
an " enani" would be to hold out a premium to fraud. I
have heard of a paper being brought to a resumption officer
in the course of his inquiries by a person who represented
that it was a title to land which had been given by the King
of Delhi 200 years ago; but on examining that paper it was
found that it bore the mark of that very year, and was, in
fact, not six months old. (Hear, and laughter.) How many
frauds of that kind might be attempted if the suggestion to
which I have alluded were adopted. But, if you want to
confirm the titles justly and not indiscriminately, you must
inquire in some form or another. The real question is what pre-
cautions should be taken against arbitraryproceedings. That is
a question which has been deeply considered, and one of
the first objects of the Governor ofeMadras will be to report
upon the best manner of dealing with it. I apprehend that
the general principle to be adopted should be this—to re-
spect absolutely undisturbed succession for a certain period
of In the next place, not in any case as a rule totally
-to resume any " enam," even where the title is found to
have been originally acquired by fraud, unless the holder
has been a party to that fraud. Of course, where the holder
has been a party to that fraud he does not deserve any con-
sideration, or command any sympathy. Where the title is
invalid not by any acts of the holder, that fact would pro-
bably form the natural basis for a compromise between the
holder and the Government. On the condition of a mode-
rate payment ho could receive what would be in future a
title which could not be disturbed. Lastly, there is a ques-
tion which will have to be considered necessarily rather in
India than here. lam told that scarcely any of these
"enam" tenures are unconditional holdings. The great
majority are limited tenures—that is to say, they are held
subject to a contingent remainder to the Government in
certain cases, usually in case of failure of heirs male. That
' sort of reversional claim is of very little value to the Go-
vernment, but at the same time it is a great annoyance
and a source of great discontent to the holders. (Hear,
hear.) I behave it will be in our power to confer great
benefit on the holders of these "enams" if these claims, so
comparatively worthless to us, and so annoying to them,
can be commuted for money. There is only one other
subject on the question of land tenures on which I will
touch briefly. The house is possibly aware that great
dissatisfaction has been produced in many parts of India
by the manner in which estates have been sold in conse-
quence of decrees of the Civil Court. The process, I
believe, is generally this :—An estate is there divided
among all the children, or is held jointly by all of them.
By that process naturally a poorer class arises. They,
aim at keeping up appearances ; they become encum-
bered, they borrow at an enorm•us rate of interest ; then
comes a suit, and the estate is sold. The old proprietors
often in such cases become tenants, and thus occupying a
subordinate position among the people, they cause discon-
tent. It frequently happens that the new owner is a
stranc,er, who does not command the sympathy of the
people. Great disturbances frequently arise on account of
the new owner being driven out by the people, who are
attached to their old chiefs. In the late disturbances they
gave no help to the Government. Now, strictly speaking,
there is nothing in this change of proprietors beyond the or-
dinary process by which lands pass from those who are
poor to those who can buy ; but this cannot be regarded
entirely as'a question of political economy. There• is no
doubt' that large and rapid changes have been extremely un-
popular, and thereis no doubt that they have weakened
the authority of th—e British Government. We have there-
fore recommended the Government of India to consider
whether any restriction can be placed on this process. Two
methods have been suggested—one, that of limiting the
amount for which sale's should take place, the other of em-
powering the persons against whom decrees for sale have
been made to appeal from the subordinate to a higher court.
This is delicate matter to deal with. Can it be said that on
principle it is wrong to permit a transfer from an encum-
bered proprietor to a wealthy purchaser.? But matters of
this kind are not entirely questions of strict political eco-
nomy; we are h9tlAcl to consult also the national feelings

and habits of the people, though any moderate check on the
practice of encumbering estates, with the result of their
being sold Albs likely to be useful. Reverting now to the
actual fmandE position of India, it is impossible to conceal
from ourselves the fact that for sometime past a large defi-
cit has existed. In the ordinary state of things we re-
ceived funds from India by drawing bills thence for the
use of the Home Government in England. From that ex-
pedient we are now cut off. We cannot draw on the Go-
vernment of India, as it requires all its revenue for
its own necesssities. The Indian Government is, in
fact, a borrower ; it has a five per cent. loan
now open and all disbursements, therefore,
must be provided for at home. We do not know whether
the process may not be reversed, and whether the 'lndian
Government may not draw on us. Indeed, at the end of
1857, the Government of India did draw for £1,000,000,
which was shipped from this country in bullion. We have
no reason'to expect that this will recur; but, from the un-
certainty of the state of affairs, it is right to have a margin
above actual requirements. Now, what are the disburse-
ments in England on account of India ? The estimate of
their amount from May 1, 1859, to April 30, 1860, is
£6,151,680. It has been the practice of late years always
to have in hand a cash balance of £1,000,000; the total re-
quisition, therefore, is £7,154680. The details of this sum
are these : —For dividends and interest, £1,278,449 ; Par
ments on account of troops and store, postal arrangements,
&c., £2,463,671; for civil service annuities, absentee allow-
ances, furlough and retired pay, and advances to the Pro-
vident Funds, Civil and Military, £1,439,480 ; for bills of
exchange, remittances, and miscellaneous, £263,400 ; for
charges of home establishment, civil, military, and marine
pensions, • outfits, and recruiting charges, £704,680. To
meet these items of expenditure our assets are, a cash
balance on the Ist ofMay, 1859, estimated at £78,961; Ex-
chequer-bills and bonds in hand, £1,598,900; bills of ex-
change on India, £36,000; remittances from India on ac-
count of supplies through the Lords of tjie Treasury,
£60,000; the balance left deficient is £5,377,819. Con-
sidering that the deficiency is of this amount, and con-
sidering also the possibility, though I trust it is only a bare
possibility, of our being called on for some time to make
good the requirements of the Indian Administration, I
hope the Government will not be considsred unreasonable
in asking this house to sanction a loan of £7,000,000.
(Hear, hear.) In respect to this amount, we propose to
follow the precedent of the loan we raised last year. The
sum will be raised on bonds or debentures secured on the
revenues of India alone. (Hear, hear.) I think that no
other than the Indian revenue should be made liable
liable for a loan like this ; and I think also, though there
has been a deficiency in that revenue for some time pasts
that we have reason to hope it will not be necessary to
make an application for another similar loan in this
country. (Hear, hear.) On the subject of the Indian re-
venue alone being made the security for the loan I ad-
dressed a despatch to the Government of India on the 19th
ofoTanuary last, a passage from which I will read :
" While the extraordinary crisis through which you have
passed has fully justified the resort to extraordinary mea-
sures for raising the requisite funds to meet the emergent
military expenses which had suddenly and unexpectedly to
be incurred, at a time when the revenue was so suddenly -
and 'unexpectedly diminished, I must impress upon your
Government the great importance, on the re-settlement of
India, of your again, as in time past, depending solely on
your local resources for the ways and means required for
the conduct of the Indian Government, both he re and in
India. Every effort should be made so to provide for the
wants of India that the loan for which her Majesty's Go-
vernment is about to obtain Parliamentary sanction may
be the last required to be raised here."
I have now endeavoured—l well know how imperfectly--
(cheers)—l know well also at what length—(cheers)—te
lay before the house what is the actual state of the Indian
finances, and what are the principal sources of Indian
revenue ; the Indian debt, past and present ; and the actual
condition of Indian trade. I have also attempted to indi-
cate the means by which that trade may hereafter be de-
veloped and increased. If I have succeeded in conveyin;
to the house the impression that exists in my own mind
2.1
should say that the present state of India is undoubtedly
one that will require the greatest vigilance and activity on the
part of its administration; but I do not think that the state
of affairs gives any cause for despondency. (Hear, hear)
I do not deny that the present embarassments are grave ;
will not say that they appear quite ended ; but they are not
greater than an interval of peace and good Government may
retrieve ; and I think I have succeeded in showing that the
permanent burden imposed is really light, compared with
the permanent resources which may be developed hereafter.
(Hear.) A great deal has been done, and is still doing, to
open India to the energy and enterprise of Europe. The
distance between them is lessened, and the interest taken at
home in Oriental affairs is. increasing. And though it
would be too much to ask the house to undertake a con-
tinuouse and minute supervision of the Indian Administra-
tion, yet its general supervision will be much greater in
degree than it was in former years. That greater attention,
I believe, will have a good result ; it will do much to remove
existing abuses and to stimulate improvements. I believe
the changes effected will impress the minds of Englishmen
with the fact that now, more than at any former period,
they have the fullest scope for the highest destiny of their
race. I believe these changes will call forth more strongly
than ever those characteristic qualities of our countrymet
their practical sagacity and administrative energy, which
through all the records of our national existence have
always controlled fortune and commanded success. The
noble lord was loudly cheered as he resumed his seat. Al
there were some cries of " Move, move," he rose again, ana
begged, instead of the motion on the paper, to give notice
he should to-morrow (this day) move that the house go
into committee, when he would submit resolutions to en-
able the Secretary of State for India to raise a loan for the
service of that Government.
Sir C. WOOD suggested that the debate be taken in the
committee.
Sir E. PERRY asked for certain financial returns, and
pointed out a considerable discrepancy which:existed between
the noble lord's statement of the revenue for the years
1856-7, and the statement of it in the returns already
printed. According to the noble lord, the revenue for the
year in question was about 33 million pounds odd, and the
expenditure was about the same; whereas, according to the
papers on the table, the revenue for that year was only
£29,500,000.
Lord STANLEY said he had obtained the figures he had
quoted from the accounts he found at the India-house. As
he had already stated, he had taken the rate of exchange at
2s. the rupee, whereas the papers on the table assumed it to
be worth only ls. 101 d.
Col. SYKES had no doubt that the noble lord would
produce in committee the figures on which he had founded
his statement. The discrepancy did not strike him (the
gallant colonel) as amounting to much. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KINNAIRD asked whether the financial difficulties
of India had prevented those reforms in the police froze
being carried out which had been promised, and which
would be of so much importance to the well-being of the
ryots in Bengal ?
Lord STANLEY said that a large scheme of police re-
form had been sent home, and was under consideration.
Mr. V. SMITH . urged the impossibility of discussing
Indian finance until the house had before it the documents
referred to by the noble lord.
Mr. U. J. BAILLIE said the discrepancy which had
been mentioned had no doubt arisen partly from the differ-
ence of the value assigned to the rupee, and partly from the
fact that the papers already before the house were merely
an estimate. The statement which the noble lord had now
made might, however, be relied on as perfectly correct.
(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it would be both inconveni-
ent and difficult to proceed with the discussion until the
house was in possession of the documents which had been
alluded to. It might, however, be better to allow the bill
to be brought in to-morrow, and to take the debate on the
second reading. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no
doubt the discrepancy which had been pointed out would
be easily accounted for when they went into the details of
the question. He quite agreed with the noble lord that the
house ought not to be called upon to come to any sudden
decision upon the facts which his noble friend had stated
with so much comprehension and lucidity. He should,
therefore, propose that the committee should be taken on
Friday.
It was then resolved that the house should go into com-
mittee on Friday next.
PIERS AND HARBOURS.

Mr. PAULL moved for leave to, bring in a bill to encou-
rage and facilitate the erection of piers and harbours ill
Great Britain and Ireland. The hon. gentleman explained
that with some alterations and improvements the measure
was substantially identical with one he had brought in last
session.
Lord LOVAINE said he did not intend to offer the bill
any objection; but ho thought it right to say that the
Government proposed to bring in a measure which would
probably answer all the objects that the hon. gentlemen
had in view.
Leave was given to bring in the bill, and
The house adjourned at a quarter to nine.

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