The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-24 00:00:00

bcing'also an inei-ease of 600. Did this exhibit anything like
neglect
,on the part of the head's of the Irish Cluirch ? Did
it not show that there was a determination on their parts to
dissolve unions, to abolish pluralities, and to compel residence.
The progress in these matters had been almost incredible.
An llos. MEMBER asked what increase had taken place in
the congregations.—( Hear, hear.)
JACKSON observed that if the Hon. Member would
do him the honour of listening, be would afford him a satis-
factory answer. Ile would here observe that he was not
willing- to admit the perfect accuracy of the Report on the
table. He had received a number of letters, pointing out
great errors, and showing, iG many instances, that the num-
ber tithe Protestant inhabitants of a parish had been under-
rated; he also knew that several other lion. Members had
received similar communications.—( Hear, hear.) This Re-
port, however, such as it was, and taken under such unfavour-
able circumstances for the Protestant Church, proved that a
great improvement had taken place with regard to the in-
crease in the number of the members of that Church. lie
would refer particularly to the county of Kerry, as described
in the Report, for a proof of this.--(The lion. and Learned
Gentleman then proceeded to read ouer a list of parishes in
the county of Kerry, showing the increase that bad taken place .
in the number of members of the Church between 1830 and
1834, but in consequence of the rapidity with which he read
them, and the peculiarity of their names, they were not dis-
tinctly heard in the gallery.) The new population Return
ought not to be_ taken as a criterion of the state of religion
in Ireland, but he contended that the State was bound
to provide for the religious instruction of the great
body of the people.—( Cheers frem the Ministerial benches.)
lie' contended that the clergy of the Church of Ireland were
indefatigable in the discharge of their duties, but they bad
hitherto many difficulties to conts:nd with. In one of those
parishes which he had referred to, namely, that of Dingle—a
few years ago, two clergymen of the Church of England took
up their residence, and began to preach to the people in their
native language. The market house in which they preached
constantly overflowed with anxious audiences, notwithstanding
the obstacles thrown in their way by the Roman Catholic
priests, who exerted themselves greatly to prevent the people
attending those religious meetings. Since, that time there
had been a constantly increasing congregation at the church,
in a place where but a few years ago there were no Protes-
tants.—( Hear, hear.) In 1830 there were 228 members of
the church in this parish, but 41'1834 there were 249.
( Hear.) If reference was made to the Report of the Com.
missioners, it would appear manifest that between 1830 and
1834 a great increase had taken place in the number of the
members of the Establishment in the most Catholic parts of
Ireland,—(The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded
to refer to a number of cases illustrative of this statement, the
greater part of which, from the causes we have previously as-
signed were not heard by us ; but amongst other saes he re-
ferred to the parish of Innismagrath in the diocese of Kilmore,
where the increase had been from 400 to 483, and in which
parish there was a most zealous Catholic priest, well known
to many Honourable Members; to the parish of Carlow, where
the increase had been from 1409 to 1755; and ,to the pa-
rish of Clonfert, where the increase had been from 1,010 to
1,120, that was an increase of more than 10 per cent in the
course of three years, while in the same parishes there had
been a diminution in the number of Roman Catholics. lie
then proceeded to refer to the great increase in the number of
Protestants in the island of Achlin, notwithstanding every op-
position had been manifested by the Priests, who had resorted
to every species of persecution against the clergyman, who -
at last had been hunted out of that island. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman went on to refer to the exclamation. of
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that he would take this tnea-
sure as an instalment ; and also to a statement published by a
Roman Catholic Prelate, and contended that it was evident
the object was, in certain quarters, to root out the Esta-
blished Church in Ireland. Nothing she;it of whether the
Roman Catholic or the Protestant relic :on should exist in Ire-
land as the established religion was at issue. He was satisfied,
from what,he had seen and beard, notwithstanding all that
had been said about this being a final measure, that the Roman
Catholic Hierarchy, the Clergy and the laymen, would be sa-
tisfied with nothing short of the demolition of the Established
Church. He by no means said that this conduct on their part
was unnatural or blameable, but he would ask this House—he
would ask this British House of Commons, was it prepared to
demolish the Established religion? He could not believe it..
One of the express conditions. of the act of Union was, that
that the established religion should. be preserved in Ireland.
He would ask them whether, in the teeth of an Article of the
Union, they were prepared to demolish the Established.
Church ? Let them demolish the Established Church in that
country, and they will certainly establish the Roman Catholic
religion. He would call the attention of the House to the
manner in which the Protestants had ever conducted them-
selves in Ireland. Had they not been the indissoluble friends
of England ? Had they not, in the hour of difficulty and
danger, when there were threats of invasion, or in times, of
insurrection, stepped forward to maintain the interests of Eng-
land. If they had, did it become this country now to desert
them? Did it become this country to admit a principle which
must prove their destruction, and for what purpose ? Why,
merely to raise a miserable and insufficient fund for the pur-
pose of education.
Lord MORPETH and some half-dozen other Members
rose at the same time. There was a general cry for his Lord-
ship, who, on being allowed to proceed, was .much cheered.
He said, as he had already had the opportunity of explaining
the particulars of this Bill, and his own views respecting it—
as the immediate motion of the Right lion. Baronet .(Sir
R.--Peel) turned on a point which already in the course of
this session had been, with the assent of a considerable ma-
jority, and almost on the very grounds on which he rested it,
by this House distinctly and peremptorily decided—and as
for the discussion of the chief part of the details brought for-
ward, apart from the general principle involved, frequent
opportunities would occur in the progress of the Bill through
the Committee--he had expected to be able to feel himself'
discharged from having to trespass long upon the time of the
House on the present occasion ; but there had been some
things stated in the course of this discussion, and with such
apparent grossness of misrepresentation.—( Much cheering.)
He did not charge it as being intentional, but that misrepre-
sentation so affected the really important provisions of this
Bill and its entire nature, that he did think himself authorised
in beggine. the House to indulge him while he offered one or
two remarks in explanation and contradiction. Now, with
respect to the two parts of the yet undivided—and, judging
by what he gathered from the progress of this debate, he be-
lieved it would continue to be the undivided--Bill.--(Cheers.)
First, with respect to that part which referred to the settle-
ment of the property in tithe. Many objections had been urged
by the Right lion. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) against the provis
stows by which he intended to carry that settlement into effect ;
and he should alinost say that of the two divisions of the mea-
sure, the Right Hon. Baronet expressed himself with more
caution and forbearance with respect to the great principle of'
appropriation involved in one of the provisions, while he
directed most of his arguments arid strictures against the prin-
ciples involved in the other part of the Bill.--(Hear, hear.)
He begged to say, with respect to the provisions of the Bill
for the settlement of property in tithes, that there was not one
of them which he should not be quite ready to have patiently
and candidly discussed in the Committee. One of the points
to which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Pee!) directed some
of his most marked 'censure—he did not think the Right
Mon. Baronet meant to impute blame in this respect to him
and those with whom he acted—was, that they diminished by
three-tenths the existing tithes. Indeed, it would not have
been very consistent in the Right lion. Baronet to have
charged blame upon them here, considering that it was to a
larger amount than he was himself preparecNo make a re.
duction. But one of the points on which the Right Hon.
Baronet much dwelt was the proposed mode of taking the
averages ; and really front the tenour of the observations
which the Right lion. Baronet addressed to them on this
part of the subject, the House might have been tempted to
think that the present rate was permanently fixed upon them.
Now what was the fact ? By the first Bill introduced by the
lion. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Goulburn), lie
believed the amount of the composition was to continue the
same for three years, and after to vary on an average of the
three years preceding. By a subsequent Bill the amount was
to continue according to the decision of the vestry, either for
seven or fouvteen years, or, if they thought fit, for twenty-one
years, the variation depending on the average of the seven
years preceding. The Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet did
not interfere with those compositions established for twenty-
one years ; but in all other cases it prescribed a change. Now
if any other plan. were proposed by which the averages could
be taken, on which the composition of tithes were founded,
he should be ready to listen to it ; but he must say that it
did seem to him that the clergy would be even worse off under
the provisions of the former Acts than they would be under
this Bill ; for at the end of seven years these compositions
were subject to a variation on the average of the seven
years preceding, and it might happen that the whole of the
past seven years would give an unfavourable average ;
whereas, under the present Bill, if in any one year prfees rose,
the clergy would be entitled to some benefit from such a rise.
This brought him to the Perpetuity Purchase Fund, and he
would say that he did not think the Right Hon. Baronet was
entitled to complain of the arrangement as unfair, inasmuch as
it could be clearly demonstrated that the objections of the
Right lion. Baronet would attach to the measure of the Hon.
and Gallant Baronet (Sir Henry Hardinge) in a much greater
degree. He had the satisfaction of acquainting the House
that whereas the Right Hon. Baronet had announced the
amount received on this account to be 55,0001„ and
88,0001. was expected ; , but by a statement received this
day from Ireland, he ascertained that the amount received
was 83,5211., and that they expected in, six months 47,000/.
more. The gross amount of the purchases declared by the
Commissioners was 196,000/., of which tenants only 'had
declared their intention to ,complete their purchases to
the amount of 23,0001. He would. pass from that subject
and enter upon the question of the appropriati.sni of the Church
revenues to other than ecclesiastical purseeses. This he felt
was the main point in issue. Tne Right lion. Baronet
observed that the present,.
Temporalities Act, 9:::t virtually repealed the Church
""I'..'ich could not be denied ; and enume-
rated three Ppr,iculars in which it would do so. First, by
g the fund, which arose from the suspension of the ap-
pointment of clerks to livings (in which there had not been
Divine service for the three years preceding February, 1833),
to the purposes of the reserve fund, and not to the general
fund of the Commissioners. Secondly, the funds arising out
of tithes, without cure, appropriated to dignitaries and pre-
bends were, under the Church Temporalities Act, to be ap-
plied, in the first instance, to the augmentation of small liv-
ings, and failing this, to go to the general fund of the Com-
missioners, to be applied to strictly ecclesiastical purposes, for
the building and repair of churches; these funds, also, under
the present Bill, were to be converted into one of the
feeders of the Reserve Fund. Thirdly, the funds arising
from the sale of the perpetuities were under the Church
Act to be applied to the augmentation of small livings,