The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-28 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

Mr. HE BRIE S would now call the attention of the House
to a subject' connected with their proceedings a few nights
ago. The Hon. Member for Middlesex had proposed that
the Army Estimates should be referred to a Committee up
stairs, and another proposition had also been made respecting
them. He, therefore, thought it right, in moving the order of
the day for going into Committee on the Army Estimates,
to say, that that evening was the only one on which
they could possibly be entered into, as there were mat-
ters of importance pending, which would preclude them
from having any other opportunity of doing so. On Monday
night a subject of great importance was to be brought forward.
If, therefore, there was any further delay in proceeding
to the consideration of the Estimates, it was his duty
to point out to the House, that the greatest possible
disadvantage and public inconvenience might arise from such
a course., ile had thought it his duty to state thus much to
the House, in order that there might be no misapprehension
on the subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved the
order of the day for the 'House going into a Committee of
Supplv on the Army Estimates.
Mr. H LIME said it was very true that every motion made
on a night of Supply was to a certain degree an impediment to
that vote ; and ever since he had been a Member of that House
he had always found Chancellors of the Exchequer and Right
Hon. Gentlemen connected with the Government most
anxious to get over the Supplies with as little discussion and
as little delay as possible.—( Laughter.) But it had been the
rule, on many occasions, when individuals held situations in
the Government in whom the House had not confidence, for
the House not to be too ready to place at their disposal the
public funds, without due discussion, and without an attention to
those reforms and economy which the House should look after.
In the Estimates, there were sonic votes exceedingly difficult
to deal with—he meant so far as the number of troops was
concerned. Ministers might think it necessary to maintain
the various Colonies. It appeared to him that this was a point
settled on the recommendation of the Minister for the Colo-
nial Department, on what was necessary to be done. Upon
his representatiori, a course was then recommended on
the responsibility of his Majesty's advisers. He thought, how-
ever, it ought to be dealt with by a Committee of the whole
House. He stated this in order to free himself from that
practice which has hitherto been pursued, and that prerogative
which was exercised for the public good. But the question he
was-about to bring before the attention of the House was whe-
ther they were doing that to which he had pledged himself,
in effecting all the reductions they were enabled. What he
thought ought to be the rule of this house was, not to vote a

single farthing of the public money to his Majesty's Ministers
until they had laid before the House the plan of their measures,
as well as their statement on the ways and means. With
that view he had asked the Right y Honourable Baronet
to postpone the Committee of Supply, but he ( Sir R. Peel)
had very properly said, that it was not the usual course pur-
sued by the House. He could not complain of it, as it seemed
to be the principle of every Ministry to proceed on this jog-
trot system. It seemed to be the great desire of every Adminis-
tration to maintain as large an establishment as it was pos-
sible they could. He would venture to say that every Admi-
nistration (and he did not mean to blame that of the Right Hon.
Bart. in particular) never had nor never would make reductions
until they were forced upon him, from what he would call the
gentle compulsions from without. It might be considered as
unconstitutional language, but he thought it was the legitimate
interest and positive language to which the House ought to bend.
If the people be of op,inion that certain taxes are maintained
detrimental to the public good, the representatives did but
their duty in pressing upon that House to make these
reductions. The course which had been pursued in
this Session was to call for a vote on the Navy Estimates.
he supposed, because they were the most popular, and because
it ayes considered no objection would be made to them. It
would be recollected, that when these Estimates came on, it
was past eleven o'clock, and he endeavoured to' gain the con-
sent of the Right Hon. Bart. for a temporary delay. He
thought the House had been a great deal led astray from the
statement that there was no possibility of turther reductions.
It had been said that the only available sum from which further
reductions could be made was l 5 millions, thereby excepting
the half-pay, pensions, and superannuated allowances of the
various departments. He believed, however, that this portion
of the public revenue, amounting to about five millions, was
capable, if the House would only do its duty, of much further
reduction. Above all, if inquiry was made into the mode in
which the half-pay list had been swelled up for the last 16 years,
by purchases to a large extent, without considering that every
new appointment in the army and navy was a new pension on
the public, not for one year but according to the age of the
person, for 16 or l 8 years. He complained of the Commissions
in the Guards which had been given to the Queen's pages,
each of which cost the country two or three thousands pounds.
He appealed to the Right Hon. ,the Secretary for Ireland,
who had given such valuable and important information before
the Finance Committee, or the Right Hon. Gentleman who
had spoken last, whether great reductions might not have been
made. The suggestions of the Right lion. the Secretary for
Ireland had already effected savings to a considerable amount.
There were matters connected with the half pay list which ho
would not now more particularly allude to, but which would
shortly come before the public. He would remind the House
of the disclosures that had been made, in consequence of in-
formation furnished to the Secretary at War about four
years ago, when the pension list had gone on rapidly
increasing, and from it appeared that the non-commis-
sioned officers and privates had been drawing pensions,
under false certificates. ( Hear, hear, hear.) A similar
investigation now into the mode in which many officers in the
army and navy bad obtained their half pay, might
be most advantageous to the interests of the 'country.
He believed that the Gallant Officer, the. Secretary for Ire-
land, could tell that 20,0001. or 30,0001. a year were saved by
the inquiry of that Committee. It was proved that money
was taken from the public purse by fraud and connivance ;
—( Hear)--and as the public had derived so much benefit
from that inquiry, he was anxious to propose a further inquiry,
for the purpose of accomplishing further reductions. A com-
mittee properly constituted could not only recommend, but
carry into effect the consolidation of the services which he
proposed. By the latest returns laid on the table of the House,
it appears we have burthens which could not be reduced
below 28i millions, besides, there was an expenditure of 21
millions further, including three millions for the collection of
the revenue; two millions for the Civil List, diplomatic ex-
penses, &c. ; and fourteen millions, the expense of maintain-
ing the Army and Navy and other miscellaneous items.—
( Hear, hear.) Therefore he asked the House to bear with
him, while he proceeded to show how the consolidation
of the Army and Ordnance could be effected, for he left the
Navy out of the question altogether. If they took into consi-
deration the sum of 5,700,0001., the expense of maintaining
the army, and 1,250,0001. for the ordnance—it would make
seven millions for the army expenditure, exclusive of the yeo-
manry and militia. The question, then, is, can any mea-
sure be proposed by which the civil departments of the
Army and Ordnance can be consolidated, in order to save ex-
pense. He had no hesitation in saying that the services could
be so consolidated, as they acted so constantly together, and
it was a matter of wonder to him that military men; froin
their experience in the public service, and their knowledge of
the services in other countries, should be so long separated.
It was quite impossible to carry on this expenditure without ob-
serving economy—that strict attention to economy, unless
some superior control were exercised over in—( Hear, hear.)
Such sentiments so unanimously pervaded the Committee up
stairs, that they came to the resolution that there was a great
increase of the public expenditure, because no control existed
to check the heads of the respective departments. Each en-
deavoured to keep up his own establishment, and gra-
dually raised them, and continued them in spite of the
authority- they ought to have been regulated by.—( Hear.)—
If one opinion was more predominant than another in that Com-
mittee amongst naval officers it was this, that the Treasury only
ought to be the controlling and superior power to which all the
others should be subordinate, and he would say, as he saw the
Hon. Baronet about to leave the House--[ Sir J. Graham was
proceeding towards the door of the House, but on hearing this
remark he took his seat, which occasioned much laughing)—he
would say it, because it was a credit to the Right Hon. Baronet,
—no sooner did he enter upon the department to which he was
appointed than he directed his attention to this subject, and
concentrated the whole under the authority of the Admiralty
Board, by which a reduction took place; a reduction of no
less than 1,300,0001. was effected in the actual expenditure,
though it should be admitted that the larger portion was owing
to the reduction of stores. The Hon. Baronet acted upon his
own responsibility, and had effected his object—that of a re-
duction of expenditure and a greater efficiency of the estab-
lishment—and for this he deserved credit. If, therefore, there
was so large a reduction as one-fourth in that department, be was
sufficiently justified in advancing the statements he now made.
Whether all the benefits would flow from the measure he pro-
posed which he expected might be a question, for he had been
often told that he was too sanguine; but he was certain that
no harm could ensue from arguing. Before he touched upon
the Ordnance question, he would glance at the Army. It ap-
peared that now there was a practice in existence, compared
with what obtained in the present times—then the Secre-
tary at War was the officer who was responsible to that House,
as well as the one who really ought to be ; but since the times
of the Duke of York, whose long lease of office gave him the
the opportunity of consolidating all the power—(a laugh)—
so that now all the power was in the office of the Comman-
der-in-Chief, while the Secretary at War, who was responsible,
had no power. He would like to hear what his Hon. Friends
the Members for Dundee, Coventry, and Nottingham had to
say upon the subject. He considered the office of Commander-
in-Chief was opposed to all changes, which was the reason
given for not effecting the recommendations of the Committee.
The Commander-in-Chief performed the duties in a great
degree of the Secretary at War. It was the opinion of some
of the best officers that the Commander-in-Chief should be
placed in the same situation as the Admiral of the Fleet, and
should act under the responsibility of an officer en-
trusted by that House. If not, he did not believe that they
could ever effect those plans of economy and retrenchment
which the county called for. Having stated this much, he
would mention to the House the object of his motion.
'lt was to refer the Estimates of the Army and Ord-
nance to a Committee up stairs—(Hear)—which should
be constituted similarly to the Finance Committee, to enquire
and bring before them the best evidence as to the possibility of
making the alterations proposed. The service of the ordnance was
divided into two departments—the Military and the
Stores—and during the last yeir a third had been
added, namely the Commissariat department.—( Hear.)
It appeared to him, from all that had been stated, that if
the present Board of Ordnance was entirely reduced
and broken up, and the whole of the establishment placed
under two heads, a saving of several hundred thousand
pounds would be effected. If the Artillery, Engineers,
and the Pay Office of the Army were placed (as it ought
to be, and was in every other country, under the Commander-
in-Chief, great good would be effected. There would remain
nothing but the Store department, and a Board of Superintend-
ence might be formed without expense. He would now detail
to the House what the duties of Paymaster of the Army were.
All monies were issued through the Secretary at War, by
means of his warrant. He therefore complained that the
country v. as put to an average annual expense of 25,0001:
and this year it amounted to 29,0001., for no purpose whatever,
and from which the country derived no kind of benefit.
The half-pay was paid by checks, and it was mixed
up by the agents, the Banks, and the Paymaster-General.
This was a most roundabout and most inconvenient
mode of proceeding, and was very injurious to the public service.
He complained that the payments made to the public by
Greenwood and Co. were at a charge of per cent., and that
firm made a sum of 19,000/. annually by merely cashing these
warrants, and paying a portion of them.
Sir E. K NATCHBULL expressed his dissent from that
statement.

Mr. HUM E resumed—This was one instance of the man-
ner in which the Army payments were made, and they required
alteration. He thought that the army and navy pay offices
should be consolidated, and that the whole pay of the
Army and Navy could then be made at a very trifling expense,
The Honourable Gentlemen then proceeded to state that
Chelsea Hospital had made a saving of 12,0001. from the late
alterations ; and if the consolidation of these three offices
were effected, there might, be a saving effected to the country
of 33,000/. per year. He then concluded by moving that the
Army and Ordnance Estimates be referred to a Select Com-
mittee to consider of the expediency and practicability of con-
solidating some of the military and civil departments of the
army and ordnance, with a view to diminish the expense of
those establishments, and to provide a more efficient controul
over military expense.
The amendment having been put by the SPEAKER,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose. He was ready to vote for the
motion of the Hon. Gentleman so far as its object was to ap-
point a Select Committee to consider the expediency of conso-
lidating the civil departments of the army and the ordnance.
Many Members of the late Government having taken into con-
sideration that question thought it most advisable to adopt a more
efficient controul over the military expenditure; and they were
also of opinion that that would never be effectually done till
one person was charged with the responsibility.—( Hear.) The
members of the late Government being of that opinion, a
Commission being appointed by his Majesty, of which his
Hon. Friend the Member for Coventry was one, himself was
another, and the Duke of Richmond was a third, who took a
leading part. The Commissioners _instituted inquiries with
regard to the practicability of the different plans suggested.