The Sun.
London, England, 1803-06-28 00:00:00

of the 'Hon. Gentleman with regard to women,
be knew no' instance,in which women had been
called upon to provide' substitutes, Cxcept in tie
case Of tie Provisional Cavalry, and there it was
attended with such ineonveniences,,that he thought
it was a sufficient reason for not introducing it in_
to this Bill. If the Committee approved of it, he
shOUld propose
.to include, all persons between 16
and 60, but 'that those between 45 and 6o-should
not. be called upon to serve personally, but should
be called tr'pon to provide a substitute.
Mr. Wi LI, lAM SMITH said, he always thought
the Ptovisional' Cavalry a very injudicious ntea-
sure : but still he thought that. the.principle of it,
as far as it exten*d to' women, might very well
be intretduCed into this howeve.r he did .mit
mean to persist in his proposition.
GeweratillAlTLAND said, he concurred with
those Gentlemen who thought the age .ought to he
extended to above 4i years, and he was sure that
in this opinion he should he 'supported by every man
who had seen large-military establishments, because.
there could he no doubt, that more real and-elledive
service could be had from men aDove 56 years of
age, provided they were healthy, than could be ex_
petted from boys of from 16 to iB. He therefore
thought the age ought certainly to be raised above,
45•

Mr. G. PANSITTART said, he was very glad
to hear the sentiments which had been expressed by
the SECRETARY at WAR, upon the-subjed of age,
because otherwise it was his intention to have moved
to enlarge it to 4.8 years instead of 4.5. He was
not aware of any objection that: could posiibly be
made to this proposition; because the service
for which the men were. to -be raised, was an im-
mediate service, .as an Invasion was apprehended.;
and, secondly, becaUse the period' of. service was
limited to four years. e
Sir HENRY ST. yormr MILDIII AY said,
Ire saw no reason why. persons 'above sixty years
of age, who inherited large hereditary property,
or who had•acquired large fortunes in trade, should
not be compelled to tannish a substitute, because,
as 'the Bill was for the protection of property, those
who possessed it, whatever their age- might be.,
ought to he compelled to contribute, and he wished
therefore to suggest the propriety of inserting a
clause 'for 'compelling all ',ennuis who possessed
toool. a`year, even though above 60, to find a
substitute. •'
Mr: SHERIDAN. said, it was unnecessary for
`him to state, that he did not rise to throw any Ob.
kdions in the way of the Bill. There were some
few poiniS, Ithwevcr, Upon which he wished to say
' a word or two. In the first place, he thought the
age of i 6 much too low ; it 'would be much better
to add 4,- few years to the 4.5, than to take it from
the S. One strong reason' which induced him to
b of this opinion was, that if they took lads from
16 to 18, they would very considerably diminish
that class of persons from whom substitutes were
most likely to be procured. because, he believed
that the greatest number of substitutes would he
found to be of that age ; but his principal ohjediory
to this proposition was, that it was going upon too
low a scale, and not sufficiently regarding the
manly population of the Country. He did not doubt
that this Army could be filled with stout and ablemen,
if the Gentlemen of the Country would m;ke the
necessary exertions. There, were t't' that. moment
(he did not speak it from loose repOrt, but, he be.
heacd, from 'accu'rate information) more men env-
ployell in the constration of buildings, whether for
pleasure or business, round this:-I'Vletropolis, than
there were in the whole of the•regular Arniy and
With such a population it 'certainly could not be
necessary to-resort to boys to fill the ranks. With,
regard to what hatr fallen from the Hon. Member
behind him (the kit speaker) he said,' he saw no
reason; why- a man of property.above • 60, shdifld
nor, if he' possessed' a sufficient property, be com-
pelled, because, though- -a man of 76 or upwards,
could not carry a-musket with any groat eff:d, yet
there were very few-of them who were intit able to
put their hands in their pockets. 'Menibers of Par.'
liament,• Peers, Cabinet „Ministers,- even Judges,'
were not exempted, and when the Bill assumed that
persons who from their inflation could nut possibly
serve in person, were yet compellable to provide a
substitute, - he saw no reason why 'men, whatever
their age might be, provided they had sufficient
property., should be exempted. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had fixed the- criterion of propertythe
paying of aol.:a.year to the Assested .1/axes this
he 'did not approve of, because there were many
men, there,were crowds of young met* in this town
who did not pay the Assessed , Totes, who were
still very well able to contribute. He•wat also not
disposed to concur With the proposition of an Mini'
Gentleman behind him,•that persons above-a:certain
age, who posseSsed toool. a year, should be compelled
to find a substitute: it appeared to him that instead Of
50031. a year, 2001. a year would be the fairer trite.
ripn. There waiatiother point upon which Ile whiled
to say a few words. Persons below a certain size 'were
exempted' from personal service, but there were
many of them, as Gentlemen must know perfedly
well, who would feel hurt that they ' were not al.
lowed, even by Sibstitute, to contribute to the
service of the Country. It was very well know°
that very frequently- "Great 'and 'daring Souls'
dwelt in little Men," and it would be very hard'-to
tell. a man of 'high rank and large fortune, that be-
Cause he was under five -feet two inches, he must not
cuntribUteto the-rotedion of hia.Countty. • With,
regard collie idea of women being included in the
Bill, he disapproVed Of it altogether': it would he.
very inconvenient,' to sly no more of it, for a wo.
mats to be running about telling-o:very body that she
wanted a man for a Snbstitute., thereicire hoped
that proposition would not be attended
Sir =JAMES PULTENEY wished to know what
was to he doile in the case of persons' above so.
The SECRETARY altrAßiAld, they were to'
ballotted'.frrrs and' if, ,they were brawn, were to
find a substitute, if-they possessed sufficient-property.;
Mr. KINNAIRD said, he wa;.it ally "anxious to
know whether this Ail! proceeded upon the groaiid
of personal-service or of property .Irpersons who
could not, from age'orsituatithi,- serveEpersonally, •
were liable do be ballotted if they had a certain pro.'
perry, • it proved tittir the basis' of the Bill was
,pro.:
perry. If that was -the- case, *there `were-exemp.
Lions in the Bill, which he thouglit could out be de.

fended , upon any principle 'Whatever: If I'Lsers,
Members of Parliament,' fudges, and Cabinet Mi-
nisters. were liable' to be though it Was
obvious that they. could nut serve in person;: he saw
no reason why the Bench of Bishops and beneficed
CL-rgy; who had livings to above a certain armunr,
should not be Cotnpelled to provide substitutes. lie
should certainly propose au atuendment to.that
fedi,

Si;. W. GE ,IRY-said, tlka! every man wasboued
to come forward under the present siruatioo of ainits,
but 'this measure seemed to him_ to bear very 'hard
upon .the: Public ; it was not indeed like tire Con,
scriptions in Vrance, but it- had some resemblance'
to them..
PULTEA EY said, he sacs, little difference
between this inea`sore and the Supplementary Mili-
tia, ekeept 'that, in this-Army the Substitutes. were-
placed in the situation of every other man in the
Country, that is to say, that they were allowed, if
they chose it, to volunteer into the Regular -Army.'
On the subjed of the Clause. which related to the
age of those who were subject to be hi-Monett for,
it waa •proposed that the age should he thus: From
the age of t 8 to 4.5 generally, and from the age of
45 up to 50, provided the person shall be .assessed
to sum of :301 a.year Assessed Taxes.
M. PITT said, as to the number w•hich would
be•procured• for the present purpose ready for the
field by thos extending the liability froin the Otte of
45 to 50, it did not appear to be very considerable ;
it was a point to 'which, under all the present cir-
curnstanees, he did not attach much importance;
they were as nothing, while compared with' the fa..
eiiity of making out the ballot without much delay ;
anti therefore, notwithstanding what bad been said•
upon that. subject, he 'could not help doubting whe.
Cher the difference syhich would arise in consegoeece
of including persons of the, age of between 45 and
5o would compensate' for the loss-or delay of one
week in the forming of this :Force ; for Gentlemen
should always bear in mind, that 'this was a system
intended to •he carried into died without loss of
time, ?'tai to hetir in mind also, that this measure,
was'by no means all the exertion of the Country.
• Our efforts were not to he etnsfined to this
• the contrary, he • thought soli other SUppletiiell:3l
Foice, locally in Counties, ought •to be ,resorted
to, and in eatek of aCtual -.lnvasion to extend to every
: part ()Utile Kingdom. He therefore submitted to
the Committee, whether.thfre were 'not strong red,
sons for reserving the consileration Of the age sit -oye
45 to 'another ease,-. which was: to be brough:
Ward. fOr the 'eme,rgeoey -of this occasion Wnethet
•-it was :worth'whde to • call nn these persons until
that measure was brought forward, and whether,' for
the .present, it ,was, prudent' to adopt a regula.
thin that might. materially• impede the whole
operation of this—Bill in the oresent situatiOn of
thiogs, and that the more especially •when there tsar
so. much difference of opinion in the Cortstnittee.'
He submitted, therefore, whether it would not be
'better'to adhere to the original Llst ; for his Right
Hoti. Ftiend,. the Secretary at 'War, had already in.
formed the Committee, that the difference between
a new and -the old Lists might
,make the difference
olsevert days, which. was the more to- be attended
to, when the present season of the year was con.
sidered. He could nut add, tt -and considering
sbeveoratiotot of the Enemy,'' for such prepara,
lions he did not know, but he might add, consi".
dering, at least, the avowed intentions ofthe Ene-
my. He Mild not help thinking, that in the pre_
sent conjunt!inre, a question 'of a -week's time was
really. more important to this Country than the ail.
ference. which might arise from including ail those
between the ages of_4s atsti so in the Levy, 'always
remembering, that Without aby delay, be Should
hope in the present Ses;ion, another measure was
expeded to be propored,,,by which thosevery per.
sons, .and others •of an higher age, would .be called
upon to contribute according to their' station anti
ability.' Considering, therefore. this Bill as an
inipoe taut measure in itself, Considering -also that
a .gteat part of its advantage
.was the speed with
which it was to be carried into executioo, lie coal.;
teat help recommending to the Committee, to drop
'the amendment. altogether; and to adlierc to thto
origingl• age.; for we should lose snore in.time titan
we should gain in-,number by mitering the List, and
nothing could be more imptirtant to us at present
titan time.
Sir ROBERT BUXTON observed, -there was
gteat force indeed in what had just 'Linen flotn•the
Right Hon. Gentleman. When Parochial Constables
came to make' out the List, and to prepare it for
the ballot, .and to dO that part which belonged to
them, it would befoimd there waadifficulty etiettgls
in the execution of the Bill, even althongli u:d
List was adhered to. It ivould not be an coo, in et_
tee' to make theM underittind. the. Bill ; 'and' some
time he feared would
.he taken up its
some of them in •the part they were 'to rake in car-
rying this measure into execution ; In it wotild be
still innre so it' the List was to be altered, aid then
a great deal of time might be• lost ; for-these reaions
he though it would be infinitely, wiser to adhete to
theiottner age, and to make no difFerence, or at least
as lit tle'.difference us possible in the old List.
Ge.neral AlAIl'L,al) Orre,yas great tae.
cessity in point of time ill this case ; but he wish:A
to understand how the age was'now to t:q!
hilt : he tintlerotood it to be now from the :le of
18 to 45. He agteed with the 'sentiments of the
Righfilon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT) as to sOthe eddi,
tiotsal and supplemental Force; which 'nay here,
after he raised, besides the present meaoire, 'for
the still futther • defence 'of •this Countr e, upoli a
principle with reference' to the- ability of ;:or-,!nr..; to
defray the expends Of it. lie thought Ei!C:l is !II
sore ought also to be adopted soon, and he :,greed
entirely with the• Right Hotionrable Gentleman that
time was extremely valtsable in this car, :!nd. that
nothing should be adopted in the present Bill whith
would have the effkl of tionecessarilv eoesomiog,
time ; and 'he believed, that if the List was i,'be
altered,. we 'should. lose More in time than We'
should gain itt. numbers. • • -
Sir ROBERT BUXTON -sail, that if difrerett
ages from the• old List of Militia tVn.e' to be
adofited,• there Must, be new Lists, and that would
take 'tip' min*.e time, the whole of whit cai;ght be
saied' by. rale i•tsi the Old List.
• The.- S'E C R TAM' 'at:JVill?-said, that first h.?
had intended to propose the age be between

;6 nna liab'e to rrtbnal serr7Pe, or to fiod
,Strbstitute, and then from the wit 4.; to ;D.
;i!:e inanner,-prov.%led the:rerson W,,. assessed jol.
ye..: fdr. the Asseised Taxes; but now he colleted
twa the CoMmittee wished the age should .be from
CO 44., and then frnin the age of 4.; .0 50; in
Cale tier Assessed Taxes date. person were what he
had stated them to be ; but it was inditTerent to
him as- to the ages bk-tween 4.; and 50, provided
the &it was carried with speed, and the number he
had stated raised. 1-le had thought that the age be. •
tweert.4.sanil 56 might be taken in upon the present
occasion,.*but there rn:glit; be another measure by
wl,:ich they. might be called upoO for sera or tor.
sol)sti tures, .as he had already stated. As to the.
list, he had a clause in his,band, to regulate
this
mode of making new lists, in cases where that
~,,would he necessary.. •
Sir W. W. 'WYNNE said a few words, which we

could not distindly .hear.
Mr, .IV.- VIINSITTART said, that with respett
to the saving of din, there would be a di6retice
of a fortnight, if any alteration was tame in !
liss.r. For there Must be time to give the'ollicers
of the Parish notice to make out a new list, rid
afterwards they must be hung up at the Church door •
and remain a Week before ,the ballot could I,3'd
place, which would amonot to a fortnight's limo',
whereas, by taking the old list, all that -time would 1
be saw-ed.
PITT said, he certainly meant to I.,ave.fa.,''l'"-
mined to the Conifnittre, wilt-Ott' It Was tip( 119`..*:
ter to forego all. idea of adding to the list 11101
persons who were above the age of 4-5 and up to
50, and from so upwards, provided the peo°3
should be assessed 301. a year to the Assessed 'l4'6'
The ground of the distindinn betweet) those will
paid so much to the Assessed Taxes, he approv,'
upon principles of equity, and that it would m 3, e'
tie measure more effettual ultimately, by extentati
the age from .4.5 to so,,he wis ready to admit ; bug •
set
ect was th
tith
ich this plant i;
fct e's
gearsae:t 1°1°11;1,13j t fele) dcea Iiiopt2t:):1)10r1
iety or matlie-
matieal ac-,:uracy—either as it regarded the obit"' •
tehom it WJs to opefate, or as it might O.'
gard-the State. He had••no difficulty in :iyirigtf'
measurt was neither a measure founded on 1"
principle of personal service wholly, nor wholly °a.
!lie idea of the Contribution of Property; bur
it was ' a blended 'principle of Property and ro-,
• Service, and St) was the whole ss'sien' (;)I,
(t)uutriolVriailli,t;irao:tiao7,l vtsi:sleoft7troft otl°)ebigeillesttolo- itti."lcn°diej
it was a m 5.4 sure founded %Too that which co',
notle quireoiccorat'ely defined, }it which was sv h
e.
felt astir tiOdertttlOti, arld witS..alat which ourCO*. ,
S 111136011; ab:IVC all things, en)bled .116 to 3`l°P
naliely; practical expedience in human society grader,
all its circumstances ; and thereforeire 501),„itted
the Committee the propriety •of considering it al.
that view, and jttilging- of it by that standard.
with regard-to those who paid 3QI. a Year t`'
Assessed Taxes, being made to contribute,. he eS'
not think that the advantage to be
to
cmiatohdnielsriucettioni.olearnne)‘,vsoauulbtlmedriatbetticoana,ntyo• the like: an.
-•
the losi of time which would be occasioned by t Ithe
ing in -this distinction tile pte,ent '2'll ;
be better in the im.fent. case to cooforn? "1 •
111111er than
i
Pri,"CiPlt of the Bill :19 it ':matt,
as he had said already; was not tO oe
cd• lie thought it would be better to P4-'3
t
than. it` could be
tilt Measure with some defeas in it, so that_ it
'night Ise carried into \execution_ soon, char)
much timeshouldibe taken Up to give it an ei
time ;
for
After
e.anlfio,reeirnigt
ex pea..
perfedion,- or even in bring it nearericta'ovlll'l:cechtellewl:kc.,(:.
t
spatch.
be some
te' aosb. ae
eiNiloenastsvusi
trt;ehilretgt,): ew'b'
those
thnoilgtilvel s
hal (1:ad•
y
1111,d fault with every thing, but the .question %Os,
lw,t11,),:o(?1,1,11beelrm-
,riettcoawmtao,sankernir:itat
!l better, than too touch
d
who 'Should }rave
114:11::
forced,. to overlook di:liculties, and to recoiled
other means were to be ' adopted which might al:
could t
in tl>e
tiro old: and oral}' N
91:°'lictatire:11-lasteritttf,:vliciltir,‘,ll:lvel:)tcrvi,elic,Ll:.tiLouchiLrarv:lsi,onii
‘eivlt:lrVaele!fip- te„ bt
t(I)
or dispatch, r would .110 - bett et: irne ter l;':;:Vvo°Cfi(ittl'iir)ll6lle).l:7e)enb:ll:tk:
atTvati
,tages of including' a • greater nainbef 01 1."}:
sotyr--ia the risk of being ball,otted;
,after the
had beet) Lured-which would ;,company the
new altii,,,i)g!) certainly. a -he-a.vier ote'su'i
would be felt' by those who wete-nnw to be b3llt)tt';`„"
than•if .thealteration 'was. to have taken pia" :'
eludingpertons•ablve the age of 4:5,.; Still he w'''
ost.;(ft:tio:tirmitni);::)tilfh!' that
iee yirlei :at
,hirn o‘ivirle:ti 11):F`ilti.ti)dillitIlic171,artitit::.
if the
the ,s,imolicity of -,the plat), the di rot •
of It, and the facility of its execution, that of.tj 4.
the old list as it ht‘)A, he was desirbus of adopting
the seot:znent of liisßight Hon. Friend (Mt. Prrifl) i.
and which he had just eZpresied, He•was PergualL
that we should 'oecoineentarigleil in difficulties if nAcacrii.
list was to be. made out, which would all be 311°41C
by;taking the -List as it was; and he court not heW-,iit
xr
texisl;ll S:L to overtook
ir
al:eorplook little dici
e thatih6
iViaguilsttireast, for eswtlru:iso6:
l
. of the execution a' this 'plan, which he wished
I:
trzezcerityrneontdiitsoenx:ocactoiuotoit.. f
. its simplici,t`yLtiai:pdatic:4.
GOOD approved of the idea of
in •this case.
,150,001 met) were liable to be dia'sll •
in die M xlttra, and it was not necessarrto ref"
M
any new measure to increase the number,l.
lettly agreed with 'the •Right 'Hon. Gentleman °PI;„'
i
site to. hint plr. PITT) that )4)
rat eedithln. was "ea:
;itYle. In the first place, therefore, he was sati'n.of.
with the mode of taking the
.into frotp ,the jgeuld.
- It? to +5, according
.to the ; this s:io
save • tone. tiereatter another measure mightttio-0
taken; and property- Insight be made the er".c and
by- which it should be judged of, and a new -
large Levy might-be inad‘2.
xr L iftiVE NC E P,eIRSONS was clearly 0
this COP
.
nion that we should not lose any,-tooe 1 ...gt
S'
'fin Committee-should recoiled, that Ibe O -
0