The Sun.
London, England, 1866-02-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 23, 1866.77

elective franchise, without regard to colour, making it
universal ? Now, where do you begin ? Government
must have a controlling power—must have a lodgment•
For instance, suppose Congress should pass a law autho-
rising an election to be held, at which all over twenty-one
years of age, without regard to colour, should be allowed
to vote, and a majority should decide at such election that
the elective franchise should be universal, what would you
do about it ? Who would settle it ? Do you deny that
first great principle of the right of the people to govern
themselves ? Will you resort to an arbitrary power, and
say a majority of the people shall receive a state of things
they are opposed to ?
Mr. Douglass—That was said before the war.
The President—l am now talking about a principle, not
about what somebody said.
Mr. Downing—Apply what you have said, Mr. Presi-
dent, to South Carolina, for instance.
The President—Suppose you go to South Carolina or to
Ohio, that does not change the principle at all. The query
to which I have referred still comes up when government
is undergoing a fundamental change. Government com-
menced upon this principle, and has existed upon it, and
now you propose to incorporate an element that did not
exist before in it. I say the query comes up in undertak-
ing this thing, whether we have a right to make a change
in regard to the elective franchise in Ohio, for instance.
Whether we shall not let the people in that State decide
the matter for themselves. Each community is better pre-
pared to determine the depository of political power than
anybody else, and it is for the Legislature or the people of
Ohio to say who shall vote or not for the Congress of the
United States. I might go down here to the ballot box
to-morrow and vote directly for universal suffrage, but if a
great majority of the people said "No," I should consider
it would be tyrannical and arbitrary in me to attempt to
force it upon them without their will. It is a fundamental
text in my creed that the will of the people must be obeyed
when fairly expressed. Is there anything wrong or unfair
in that ?
Mr. Douglass (smiling)—A great deal wrong, Mr. Presi-
dent, with all respect.
The President—The people must determine this ques-
tion for themselves. Ido not want to be engaged in a
work that will commence a war of races. In each com-
munity if a man demeans himself well, and shows that this
new state of affairs will operate well, he will be protected
in all his rights and given every possible advantage by that
community, when they have become reconciled socially and
politically to certain things. Then will this new order of
affairs work harmoniously. But forced upon the people
before they are prepared for it, it will be re-
sisted and work inharmoniously. I feel a conviction
that, forcing that matter upon the people, upon the com-
munity, will result in the injury of both races and the ruin
of one or the other. God knows I have no desire but the
good of the whole human race. I would it were so that all
you advocated could be done in the twinkling of an eye ;
but it is not in the nature of things, and I do not assume
or pretend ta be wiser than Providence, or stronger than
the laws of nature. Let us now seek to discover the laws
governing this question. There is a great law controlling
it. Let us endeavour to find out what the law is and con-
form our action to it. All the details will then properly
adjust themselves, and work well in the end. God knows
that anything I can do in the mighty process by which the
great end is to be reached—any thing I can do to elevate
the races, to soften and ameliorate their condition, I will
do ; and to be able to do so is the sincere desire of my
heart. lam glad to have met you, and I thank you for the
compliments you have paid me.
Mr. Douglass—l have to return you our thanks, Mr.
President, for so kindly granting us this interview. We
did not come here expecting to argue this question with
your excellency, but simply to state what were our views
and wishes in the premises. If we were disposed to argue
the question, and you would grant us permission, of course
we would endeavour to controvert some of the positions
you have assumed.
Mr. Downing—Mr. Douglass, I take it that the Presi-
dent, by his kind expressions and his very full treatment
of the subject, must have contemplated some reply to the
views which he has advanced, and in which we certainly
do not concur, and I say this with due respect.
The President—l thought you expected me to indicate
to some extent what my views were on the subjects
touched upon in your statement.

Mr. Downing—We are very happy indeed to have heard
them.

Mr. Douglass—lf the President will allow me, I would
like to say one or two words in reply.

The President—All I have done is simply to indicate
what my views are, as I supposed you expected me to
from your address.
Mr. Douglass—My own impression is that the very
thing your excellency would avoid in the Southern States
can only be avoided by the very measure that we propose ;
and I would state to my brother delegates that, because I
perceive the President has taken strong ground in favour of
a given policy, and distrusting my own ability to remove
any of those impressions which he has expressed, I thought
we had better end the interview with the expression of
thanks. (Addressing the President.) But if your excel-
lency will be pleased to hear, I would like to say a word or
two in regard to that one matter of the enfranchisement of
the blacks as a means of preventing the very thing which
your excellency seems to apprehend—this is, a conflict of
races.

The President—l repeat, I merely wanted to indicate
my views in reply to your address, and not to enter into
any general controversy, as I could not well do so under
the circumstances. Your statement was a very frank one
and I thought it was duo to you to meet it in the same
spirit.

Mr. Douglass—Thank you, sir.
The President—l think you will find, so far as the South
is concerned, that, if you will all inculcate this idea in
connection with the one you urge, the coloured people can

live and advance in civilisation to better advantage else-
where than crowded together in the South ; it would be
better for them.

Mr. Douglass—But the masters have tho making of the
laws, and we cannot get away from tho plantations.
The President—What prevents you ?
Mr. Douglass—We have not the simple right of loco-
motion through the Southern States.
The President—lf tho master now controls the freed-
man, would he not control his vote ?

Mr. Douglass—Let the negro once understand that ho
has an organic right to vote, and he will raise up a party
in
the
is this South among the poor who will rally with him.
There
conflict.that you speak of between the wealthy
slaveholder and the poor man.
The President—You touch right upon the point there.
There is this conflict, and hence I suggest emigration if he
cannot get employment in the South. He has it in his
power to go where he can get it.
In parting, the President said they were both desirous
of accomplishing the same ends, but proposed to do so by
following different roads.
Mr. Douglass, on turning to leave, remarked to his fel-
low-delegates, " The President sends us to the people, and
we will have to go and get the people right."
The President—Yes, sir. I have great faith in the
people. I believe that they will do what is just, and have
no doubt they will settle this question right, and hope that
it will be submitted to them for final action.
The delegates then bowed and withdrew..
On the day succeeding that on which this interview took
place, the delegation published a reply to the President, in
which they state their belief that the views and opinions
he bad expressed were "entirely unsound," and prejudicial
to the highest interests of the negro race and of the coun-
try. They take exception to his attempt to base a policy
adverse to the enfranchisement of the blacks upon an al-
leged hostility of the former slaves to the poor whites of
the South. They urge that he commits an error in draw-
ing an argument from an incident of a state of slavery,
and making it a basis for a policy adaptei to a state of

freedom. They add:—
Besides, even if it were true, as you allege, that the
hostility of the blacks toward the poor whites must neces-
sarily be the same in a state of freedom as in a state of
slavery, in the name of Heaven, we reverently ask, how
can you, in view of your professed desire to promote the
welfare of the black man, deprive him of all means of de-

fence, and clothe him whom you regard as his enemy in
the panoply of political power? Can it be that you would
recommend a policy which would arm the strong and cast
down the defenceless ? Can you by any possibility of rea-
soning regard this as just, fair, or wise? Experience proves
that those are oftenest abused who can be abused with the
greatest impunity. Men are whipped oftenest who are
whipped easiest. Peace between races is not to be secured
by degrading one race and exalting another; by giving
power to one race and withholding it from another ; but by
maintaining a state of equal justice between all parties.
Of the colonisation theory that you were pleased to broach
very much could be said. It is impossible to suppose, in
view of the usefulness of the black man in time of peace as
a labourer in the South and in time of war as a soldier in
the North, and the growing respect for his rights among
the people, and his increasing adaptation to a high state of
civilisation in this his native land, there can ever come a
time when ho can be removed from this country without a
terrible shock to its prosperity and peace. Besides, the
worst enemy of the nation could not cast upon its fair
name a greater infamy than to suppose that negroes could
be tolerated among them in a state of the most degrading
slavery and oppression, and must bo cast away and driven
into exile for no other cause than having been freed from
their chains.

GRANTS BY TIIE MIDDLESEX MAGISTRATES.-
Yesterday the Middlesex magistrates agreed that the sum
of £5OO be granted by the court, to be raised in the usual
manner, to enable the committee of visitors of the Middle-
sex Industrial School to erect on the premises at Feltham
two masts with spars, yards, sails, and rigging for the
purpose of instructing the boys in the manner of handling
ropes and sails, with the view to their future employment
in the merchant service. Further, that the sum of £4,500
be granted by the court, to be raised in the usual manner,
for the cost of the property adjoining the House of Cor-
rection at Coldbath-fields, required for the purpose.of ren-
dering more commodious the said House of Correction ;
and also " that the visiting justices of the House of Cor-
rection at Coldbath-fields be authorised to expend a sum
not exceeding £9OO in the alteration and strengthening
of the old treadwheels at that prison."

The Lifeboat and its Work.

A lecture on the lifeboat and its work was de-
livered last night at the Scientific Institution,
Wand.sviorth-road, by R. Lewis, Esq., barrister,
secretary of the NationalLifeboatlnstitution. Hav-
ing alluded briefly to the pitiable condition of the
shipwrecked sailor, he showed that the number
of vessels that entered inwards and cleared
outwards from British ports in the course of the
year was about 300,000 ; that the registered ton-
nage of the same was 60,000,000 ; and that the
value of the imports and exports on board the
vessels was more than £400,000,000. He observed
that the first lifeboat was invented about 80 years
ago. There were many doubts as to the original in-
ventor of the lifeboat, but to Henry Greathead, of
South Shields, was undoubtedly due the credit of
having built a lifeboat, which was afterwards used
with great success. The self-righting lifeboat of
the National Lifeboat Institution was brought out
in the year 1850. It was invented by the late Mr.
James Beeching, of Great Yarmouth ; but since
that period it had undergone very important modi-
fications from practical experience by the National
Lifeboat Institution. The lifeboats of this class
built in England were now found in many of our
colonies, and on the shores of nearly every maritime
country. These boats saved on the shores of Eng-
land, which extends over 5,000 miles, every year
between 500 and 600 lives from shipwreck. The
crews who went afloat in them were paid 10s. each
man for day-work and 208. for night-work, and
these rewards were often doubled by the institution.
The cost of a lifeboat station complete was about
£620. The expense of a lifeboat, its equipment, and
transporting carriage was £420. The boats were
exercised every quarter, so that they might be well
prepared for any emergency that might take place
in gales of wind. The National Lifeboat Institution
had now 162 lifeboats under its management. The
local residents and fishermen on the coasts vied with
each other in their hearty co-operation with the
society in carrying out its great and philanthropic
work. Mr. Lewis then detailed several very inte-
resting and gallant lifeboat services. He afterwards
fully described the construction of the boat, and
showed how it was made to self-right and self-eject
the water, by some interesting experiments with a
model in some water. He afterwards explained
clearly the construction of the lifeboat carriage,
which was often of the utmost consequence to
the efficiency of the lifeboat. The number of
shipwrecks upon the coasts of the United King-
dom was about 2,000 annually.' It appeared
that the institution had contributed altogether to
the saving of about 15,000 persons, and had ex-
pended £130,730 on its lifeboat stations. It had in
its service two captains of the Royal Navy as its
inspectors of lifeboats, one of whom was nearly al-
ways on the coast looking after the lifeboat stations.
The success of the operations of the Lifeboat Insti-
tution was one of the marvels of the age, and it
could only be accounted for in the forcible language
of Miss-Florence Nightingale, when she recently
said to him (Mr. Lewis), that " God had manifestly
blessed his work." The assiduity and earnestness of
its committee and officers were beyond all praise ;
12 or 14 years ago the institution had only 12 life-
boats. It had now a fleet of 162 boats. Its income
was then about £2OO a year, and it was now up-
wards of £30,000. The work of the National Life-
boat Institution excited the admiration of foreigners,
and contributions were received by it from all parts
of the world. It sometimes happened that foreign
sailors who were unfortunately wreckedon our coasts
and saved by the lifeboats of the society sent con-
tributions to the lifeboat fund on their return home.
Mr. Lewis expressed a confident hope that England,
who looked on the institution as one of its great na-
tional societies, would never allow it to languish for
want of funds; but that, on the contrary, the sup-
port extended to it would continue to be of a liberal
character to enable it to maintain its large life-sav-
ing fleet in a state of thorough efficiency, and gra-
dually to increase the number of its boats as circum-
stances may occur.

A cordial vote of thanks having been given to the
.ecturer the proceedings closed.

Election Intelligence.

that gross intimidation was practised to prevent
electors from voting for Sir J. Elphinstone and Mr.
T. C. Bruce, and they ask the house to annul the
return and declare the election void.

TIPPERARY.—Mr. Peter Edmund Gill, a candidate
at the late general election, petitions against the re-
turn of Mr. C. Moore and Mr. J. B. Dillon, to
whose instigation he imputes the fact of his arrest
for debt after the show of hands on the day of nomi-
nation had been declared to be in his favour. Not-
withstanding the discouraging influence of his arrest,
Mr. Gill says that nearly 1,000 electors voted for
him, " while for the said Charles Moore and John
B. Dillon little more than 2,000 electors voted,
leaving about 6,000 electors who did not vote, or
were prevented from voting, by reason of undue
influence." After charging against the sitting mem-
bers bribery, corruption, treating, and intimidation,
the petitioner asks that their returns may be an-
nulled, and that he may be declared to be one of
the sitting members for the county of Tipperary. '
YORKSHIRE NORTH).—A second petition against
the return for this division of Yorkshire has been
presented, but in this case it is Mr. W. E. Dun-
combe whose seat is attacked. Two electors attri-
bute to that gentleman and his agents " gross, ex-
tensive, systematic, and open and notorious bribery,
corruption, and treating." They also allege that
unqualified persons were allowed to record their
votes for Mr. Duncombe, and that voters were em-
ployed as agents, poll clerks, runners, and flagmen;
upon all which grounds they pray the house to de-
clare the return of Mr. W. E. Duncombe to be null
and void.