The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-24 00:00:00

Mr. SHELL said there was the evidence of six months al,"
ready printed, and it would be very easy to get the rest.
Mr. TULK rose. and said, he had for several evenings endea-
voured to bring forward a motion of which he had given notice,
:*or compensation to Mr. Buckingham, and he now wished to
;areas that motion, but lie would not do so if any Hon. Mem_
bur opposed it.
Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE said he should strongly op.
pose the motion.
Mr. TULK then said that he should withdraw it.
Mr. D. JACKSON gave notice that to-morrow evening
he should move for an inquiry into the case of the Rev. Mr. Sweeney, one of the Stipendiary Magistrates of Ja-.
melee, who had claimed compensation for certain services.
IRISH CHURCH BILL.
The Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned lobate
on the above Bill having been read,
Mr. WARD said, from the deep interest be had al-
ways taken in the subject then before the House, he trusted
they would now afford him a patient hearing.-( hear.) Het
wished, in the first place, to say a few words upon the Bill now
before the House, and then a few words on the manner in which
the Right lion. Member for Tamweeth proposed to deal with the
questioo, lie would be very short—he would net long trcs-
. pess upon the House, and be would not weary them svith
quoting any of the observations which he had before inflicted
upon them. hi the first instance he wished to set himself
right with regard to the statements of - the Right Hon.
Bart. with respect to the exaggeration of the revenues of
the Church of Ireland. He, hove r, had had the 'Justice
to say, that his (Mr, \Vs.) statements were less taeerreet
than many others which had been laid beforh
those who had preceded him. The fact ws-..,; that it was impose
Sitde fairly to mane any accurate '..ne House by
tint Church. He had formed ' ' '...dt. fa of the revenues of
upon the table of that P .---• s • crinion from documents
'l,l and' it was now found,
he was happy to say, th-: te -(.13e-
anti that theymore correct than mtiers
in f",h4. °;:e're'e);:rse.cry far from the truth.:
(ilea:,
hear,
ttcat )
The Honetee:de Gentleman then,
went into. 4 ktip,,,
detedireif, egerea.teo. %,14' ~N - tic liidel elle.
I __!:. To;t1 e aletdations from those cf theeltiglit Hone Beronet
torsi them site roots:44l4ot .. he was pesfeetly justified
aitta:atunkirtrda Elite dedzetttioa from the statements of
tan Right Honourable' Baronet of the former evening.
He would first address hinself to the arguments of the Right
Ham Baronet. He thought the Rigtit Hon. Baronet viewed the
subject from two very different points. The Right Hon. Bart.
loatted to the question with a strong leaning to the Church
as contra-distinguished from the people. Ile ( Mr.W.) looked
at it with reference to the people, and wished to put it upon
the most extended basis upon their part, in preference to that
of the Church. The question was, whether they had the
power, or was it right to inflict so expensive a Church-
rate upon a Catholic population ?—( Hear, and loud cheer-
ing)* whether it was really consistent with the
interests of the Church itself, cordradistinguished from the
people ; or whether in Cashel, where the Catholics
.were as one in eighteen, or in Tuam, where they
were. as one to twenty-six, the whole Established Church
was to. be kept up ?—( Hear, hear.) Were they to tell the
people that if' they would only follow the Right lion. Baronet
they would find that the Protestant clergymen were not sup-
ported like gentlemen, even while they were paying so much?
Such an assertion was utterly false. The people of Ireland
were not to be deceived by it, or to be misled by calculationi
of that sort. They looked at the real facts of the case—they .‘ -tiz
complained of being compelled to make provision for the paymeut •a.
of the Protestant clergyman, in addition to the payment which es'
their own sense of duty and religion compelled them to pay ' „.,,
their own clergymen. Look at- the Reports of the Irish Comae'
mittees, and it would be. found that in every part of that evi-
dence the reason why they refused to pay these tithes was as-
signed—because they received no return for their money._
( Hear, hear. )--They did not object to the payment of rent,
however exorbitant, because they had the land as an equiva-
lent; but they had nothing in exchange for their money.—
( Hear, hear.) This was a feeling inherent in the human
mind. If such an experiment was tried in the most orderly
and best regulated society, it would come to the same result.
Let them try it in Scotland. Is that country there was a body
of 120,000 Episcopalians ; and did they suppose that the people
of a single county in Scotland would submit liar a single year
to such an experiment ? Its result would be inevitably to '
turn that well regulated country into one wild scene of anarchy
anti confusion.—( Hear, hear.) If no other country, then,
would submit to such a system, why was it expected that Ire-
land should do so ? The only plea for the continuance of the
enormity in that country was that it bad alreatia been endured.
All agreed that it could not be fairly imposed. What were
its results? Impoverishment aid exasperation on the part of
the poor—intolerance and religious feud on the part of the
bet or educated. What, then, was the proper course to pur-
sue ? It had been indicated by the Hon. and Learned Attor-
ney-General foe Ireland, and it consisted in this, that the ex-
penses of the Established Church should be limited to the ac-
tual wants of the Protestant population, and that the residue '
of its property should be appropriated to the moral and reli-
gious instruction of all classes of the people. That he be-
lieved to be the only true remedy for alleviating the evils which
at present existed in Ireland. If the Establishment were to
be maintained at all, it was obviouS that it must be placed on
a fttirer basis as regarded the Catholic population. He be-
-lievcd that if the Government did succeed in placing it on a
fairer basis-eif they did succeed in obtaining the sanction of
the great majority of the Irish Members in that- house to the
arrangement embodied in the Bill then undet- their considera-
tion, they would, for the first time, be giving to the Protestant
Establishment in Ireland something of the appearance of a
national sanction.--( Hear, hear.)* As yet he denied that it
had received any thing approaching to a national sanction.
It was common, when this subject was under discussion, for
Gentlemen to talk of the Union. The Union was the verdict
of a packed jury. The Catholics of Ireland were not repro- se -
sented at that time. They were represented now ; they were dt-i -)-
fairly represented-in that house, and a majerity of the Irish 'fa;
Members, so representing the Catholics of that country, had t .
concurred in rejecting a proposition for the repeal of the d'-'V
Union. They looked to us for justice-4 Hear)—they looked. 1t',14
to us to advance the interests of their country..__( Hear.) lie
repeated, therefore, that if, under such circumstances, they
could now obtain the support of the Irish Members to any --tete
new plan, based ution a new ground, they would be giving to
the Church of Ireland a sanction which it never yet possessed,
and thus, at the same moment, would Ito affording stability to
the Establishment and satisfaction to the people. The argu-
ment used on the other side last night was, that no such com-
promise as was contemplated in the Bill could be expected, to
tike place, because the Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr.
Hume) had frankly declared that be was willing to take the
Bill as an instalment, and nothing but an instalment, and, con-
sequently, not as a final adjustment of the question. lie (Mr.
Ward) felt not less strongly than any Gentleman in timid
House on the subject of the Irish Church ; and he stated dis-
tinctly that he was willing to take the Government measure,
after it had been temperately discussed in the Committee, as a
fair compromise of a great national question. lie did not
wish to provide for the spiritual wants of the Protestant popu- ' -
lotion, in a mean or niggardly manner. He did not believe that •
any-Catholic Member had a desire to diminish the means of
the Protestant Church below what its wants reatiired. But.
looking at the present measure, he could not help thinking is itli
the lion. Member for Berkshire (Mr. Pusey)—whose manly
and candid statements of the conviction lie had arrived at,
and of the change which had taken place in his opinion
upon the Report, was of a character to excite in his mind feel-
ings of the highest admiration and respect—he could oat
help thinking with that Hon. Member, that this was as excel-
lent bargain for the Established Church.—( Hear.) It was
with that fettling that he should offer some observations to the
House upon the subject, conceiving that in accepting the mea-
sure now offered by the Government, he was in no respect ,e
compromising his own private opinion, that a larger and
mere comprehensive measure would have been advisable.
He was, however, willing to accept the present measure. Ile
was only anxious that it should be rendered as effectual as
possible ; and in the Committee he should not scruple, in the
most friendly spirit, to point out to his Noble Friend these
parts of its details which he thought might be advantageously
amended. The part of the Bill of which be approved most
highly was that which went to establish the principle for which
he had always contended, viz., time principle of appropriation.
—( Hear, hear.) When he looked at the change which had
taken place in popular opinion upon that subject in the
course of a short twelve months—when be looked at the
number of independent men who were now pledged to that
principle in the face of time country and of their constituency,
he could not but congratulate himself on being one of the
first to assert the principle in that House.--( Hear, hear.) The
first result of the establishment of that principle was to esta-
blish the proposition that the Church of Ireland must be im-
mediately and materially reduced; and accordingly the form
and manner in which that reduction should take place was set
forth in the sath clause of the Bill, which provided for the ee-
qeestration of all livings in parishes where there were not 50
resident Protestants. He thought that the Government had
there drawn a fair and unexceptionable line. He thought so
is spite of the declarations which had been made in that House
and elsewhere as to the number of places which, in consee. .
quence of such a provision, would be left without the means
of receiving any spiritual instruction whatever. There never
was an assertion which those who made it knew to be tworo
completely unfounded than that-4 Loud cheers.) So far from
seeing any thieg in the Bill calculated to deprive the
Protestant population of the means of instruction, he was
rather disposed to regard it as going too far in the opposite
direction, by providing for Protestant instruction, not only
under all probable, but under all imaginable eircurnstartats.
Hence he feared that the admirable principle on wdeich the
53th clause proceeded might be neutralized by some as the
subsequent provisions of the Bill. He regarde„' the 61st clause
as especially calculated to have such an etatt. By the 61st
clause it was provided, " That whew:dever there shall appear
to be in any parish any Members or 'Coe Established Church and
it shall likewise appear that 11-..,ere is a place of worship duly
consecrated, and a residee,s ataeiatia,c, minister in such pnrish,
it shall be lawful, in '..:ase tha Church thereof shall be seques-
tered, to commit the ecclesiastical duties and cure of souls
within such parlsh, to the incumbent or officiating minister of
any neighbouring parish ; but in every such ens° a separate
curate shall be nominated anti licensed for such parish in the
manner herciebefore mentioned." Now how that would ope-
rate in parishes where the Protestant population was composed
of a few families only, or perhaps exclusively of the family,
of the incumbent ? Thereare one hundred and forty ben,-
flees ill Ireland, with less than twenty Protestants in them,
and there were ninety-two perishes in Ireland, with
Churches, glebe-houses, resident incumbents, and less than ets
Protestants in ettoh.---( !lean )In each of these parishes, actor- -4,
ing to the provision of the 61st clause, a separate curate cruet
4e appointed. That, in his mind, was a great defect ine
surplus considerably below the point at which • been,_
Bill ; amid the inevitable result of it would b? tto
trtio,
andc tth ': .
of the Bill Whore
eeevisions of the iiStim and 61st clauses .
calculated. ,'ln wished to see a fairer line drawn between tilt
ihera seas not a Protestant population, he did not see what