The Sun.
London, England, 1866-06-02 00:00:00

RAILWAY CLAUSES BILL.

Mr. HORSFALL asked the President of the Board of
Trade if he would state what were his intentions with re-
gard to clause 61, affecting terminal charges, which still
appeared in the amended Railways Clauses Bill ?
Mr. GIBSON said ho intended to move the omission of
the clause.

TILE ADJOURNED DEBATE—FENIAN
CONSPIRACY
Sir G. GREY appealed to hon. Too;_u hers having notices
on the paper to postpone them, ht order
journed debate to proceed. er to allow the ad-
Mr. WHALLEY said he could not consent t a
to postpone.
s short as
his motion, but he woud make his statement
possible. The honourable member thenproceeded,
amidst the evident disinclination of the house,
move for a select committee to inquire and report t
as t:
the origin, object, and extent of the Fenian conspiracy
now or lately existing in Ireland, and especially whether
it was in any and what degree connected with any form
of religious belief. The hon. member proceeded to address
the house amidst much interruption for nearly an hour,
when
Sir P. BURRELL moved that the house be counted.
Immediately there was a rush to the door by two-thirds
of the members present, when
fThe SPEAKER appealed to the hon. gentleman (Mr.
Whalley)
to have a little consideration for the house, and
that h
‘, 6 would shorten his observations.]
Mr. we, . -
been u-aI.LEY, after this intimation, said he had only
actuated by a strong sense of duty in bringing for-
ward the matter The motion was then by leave withdrawn.
TUE REFORM BILL.
Sir H.CAlPasis asked
what was the principle of the bill ?
and proceeded to discuss it the light of the only answer
which, he said, had
ration of the Attorney_Gegnivereani
theat i t was founded on the
to the question—the deem--
old methods and landmarks ofth
Constitution. Com-
mencing with the grouping scheme heargued that, while
the grouping urn epresented towns together,
_oil or with repro-
nretporteheeenUtatiestititution for the
repre-
sented boroughs, was knolv
elie added
purpose of securing borough
of represented boroughs was entirely new, representation, grouping
that it was disfranchisement in reality, and would
vici-
ous in its results. To destroy the political life and
iti:ideenv and
in
identity
of a constituency was virtually* to disfranchise
exposing the results of the measure lie showed that it
would treble and quadruple the expense of an election. Tr,
all these old boroughs there was a traditional scale of ex_
penditure which would not be diminished when the borough
wag grouped ; on the contrary, the borough which had the
lowest scale in the group, would be apt to swell it up to
the level of the highest. Dealing with the d3tails of the
scheme, he complained that in many cases the boroughs
grouped were antagonistic in their interests ; that geogra-
phical convenience, so much insisted on by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, was neglected; that many unrepresented
towns were passed over; and, without attributing to the
Government a desire to act unfairly, he showed in an ela-
borate argument that their scheme would have that effect.
The:e we:e 73 ::,e;tts disturbed, of NO' ich 18 were held by oli-
ponents of the Government, but if the line Levi been carried

„•
up to 10,000,18 more seats would be disturbed, of which 14
were held by their supporters, and while eight boroughs
were to be left with only one member each, there were
nine boroughs in the groups of the same population left
with two members. In the same way, taking 18 boroughs
between 6,000 and 9,000 population he divided them
tinto t
ethreet
hg re oi
nu
eprsc, y a
snhdo
ws hno wt
oe d eha
cohw
vd:rffyei rnegn t
al y e
ctohredyi
nwg e
to
the number of Liberals returned. Passing to the disposal
of the seats, he remarked that ten seats only were applied
to enfranchisement, and condemned the principle of dimi-
nishing the number of constituencies and accumulating
members on single constituencies, contending that the re-
presentation of minorities was secured by having a number
of varied constituencies, and pointing out that the bill
would add 25 to the seven already existing unicorn con-
stituencies. As to the proposal to give seven members to
Scotland, without depreciating tho claims of that country
to increased representation, he insisted that the question
to be answered was why England should be mulcted of
seven ? Had she fallen off in wealth and population since
1832, ho asked, and on this point and the question of uni-
corn constituencies lie argued that the Reform Bill was
not framed on any particular principle, the members ob-
tained by the disfranchisement of decayed and nomination
constituencies being only thus disposed of of ter all the
places which were worthy of it bad been enfranchised. He
complained next of the absence of any provision on the
question of boundarjes, showing its importance by some
striking statistics as to the present large infusion of the
urban element in the county constituencies, and main-
taining that the reduction of the county franchise would
virtually destroy the boundaries between town and county
constituencies which now existed, and would entirely de-
stroy the rural character of many of the county constitu-
encies. The machinery of the bill for the extension of
borough boundaries would not work—for it was not
likely that people living outside would bring themselves
under the borough rate—and if it did work, it would be
at the expense of perpetual local controversy, and
would be liable to the still greater objection
that it would place the indefinite extension of
the suffrage in the hands of the Executive. He
denied that the municipal franchise was a proper
test for the Parliamentary suffrage, and, after some
further criticism of the machinery of the bill, he asserted
that the defects which he had indicated could not be re-
medied in committee, which was the place, not for con-
struction, but for amending a bill on the outlines of which
there was a general agreement. It was the right of the
house and of the country that a bill should be submitted
complete and well matured, and at such a period that it
could be fully considered ; and after the manner in which
the Government had acted it would have been a miracle if
they had succeeded in producing such a bill. He warned
the house that it could not commit a greater mistake than
to pass a hasty measure for the sake of doing something,
and in dilating on the inconveniences of such a course he
pointed out with great force, that as the bill could not come
into operation until after June, 1867, the house next session
would have virtually ceased to represent the country ; the,
its authority on such questions as taxation would be dis-
puted ; and that the members for the doomed boroughs
would be condemned not merely to " political polygamy,"
as Mr. Lowe had said, but to a twelvemonth's political
courtship in the face of a rival. As to settling the
question which the Attorney-General had dwelt so
strongly, he asked him how, after his declaration in favour
• of household suffrage, this bill could settle the subject on
his views; and, referring to the charge of hypocrisy made
against the Opposition, he concluded by an eloquent warn-
ing to the otter side not to refuse from party motives to
sanction a resolution every word of which they must
allow to be just and true.

Mr. ACLAND defended the course taken by the Govern-
ment, and, admitting that the Liberal party alone could
not carry the bill, appealed to the independent Conserva-
tives to assist in arranging a compromise, the chief terms
of which were understood to be the £7 franchise and the
inclusion in the small boroughs of rural suburbs.
21:. B. COCTIR A.NE, adverting to the epithet "honest"
so often applied to the bill, repeated what he had heard
from Mr. White, that not 50 members would support it if
votes were given by ballot. He denounced it as an ad-
vance towards democracy, and, by way of warning to the
house, read some extracts from the very tyrannical rules
of a great Trade Union.
Mr. C. MARTIN claimed for his constituents at New-
port the credit of being ready to sacrifice themselves for
the benefit of the country—a piece of patriotism which
was immediately repudiated with great decision by Mr.
KENNARD, the other member for Newport.

The discussion was continued—a score or more members
springing to their legs in different parts of the houso as
each speaker sat down—by Mr. Leathern, who supported
the bill ; by Colonel C. H. Lindsay, who maintained that
extension of borough boundaries, grouping of unrepre-
sented boroughs, and the prevention of bribery and cor-
ruption ought to be the chief items of a Reform Bill, and
criticised the arrangement proposed for grouping his
borough, Abingdon ; by Mr. A. Peel, who strongly ap-
proved the principle of grouping; by Sir E. Lechmero,
who explained the injustice inflicted on his borough
(Tewkesbury) by the bill; by Mr. Holden, who professed
his willingness to assist at his own political extinction for
the public good; and by Major Jervis, who complained of
the grouping of Harwich with Maldon, and, though a
friend of the working classes, denied that the bill was
honestly intended for their advantage.
The LORD-ADVOCATE, after remarking on the tri-
vial issues on which it was sought to dispose of this great
question, proceeded to reply to Sir H. Cairns' arguments
seriatim. It was plain, he said, that the small boroughs
could not remain as they were, and he defended the sys-
tem of grouping by the example of Scotland, affirming that
groups were first formed there at the time of the Union to
restrict the number of representatives. In the same way,
by reference to the example of the Scotch groups, he de-
fended the geographical convenience of the scheme, main-
taining that a system of: traditionary bribery never could
flourish in groups ; and to the argument as to drawing the
line at 8,000, he replied that in previous Reform Bills it
had been drawn lower, and that the higher it was drawn
the more Liberal seats it would disturb. Mr. Disraeli's
plan of eliminating the urban element from rural con-
stituencies was contrary to the theory of the Constitution;
and with regard to the third member, ho denied that the
proposal would lead to electoral expenses, that it would
lead to contests, or diminish the safeguards for the repre-
sentation of minorities. Passing to the Franchise Bill, he
defended the £7 suffrage as a moderate extension, main-
taining that household suffrage which had been proposed
by Lord Grey in 1797, and warmly defended by Mr. Fox,
was the old constitutional test, and that the House of
Commons was the embodiment of democracy.
Lord J. MANNERS moved the adjournment of the
debate.
Lord ELCHO—Before the motion is agreed to I wish to
ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the event
of the amendment of the hon. member for Wells being re-
jected, it is the intention of the Government to proceed
with the bill now before the house, and to endeavour with
their whole power to carry it through Parliament during
the present session. I ask this on behalf of gentlemen who
at a great sacrifice, but in obedience to a sense of public
duty, have felt themselves obliged to oppose the proceed-
ings of the Government with reference to the question of
Reform. They have no desire to place the Government in
any difficulty that can be avoided, and it is quite evident
that if the Government does not intend to persevere with
the measure no useful purpose will be served by forcing
those gentlemen to divide against them. (Cheers.) It is
currently reported and generally believed in the House
that the Government intend to withdraw or not proceed
with the bill provided they have a majority in the division.
If this be the case it ought to be announced at once—(op-
position cheers)—in justice to persons who, although
obliged to oppose the Government on this question, are
still members of the same party. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It appears
to me that, if my noble friend had found himself under an
obligation to put a question of an unusual character upon
the motion to adjourn the debate, he certainly would have
doneo well to have conveyed to the Government his inten-
ttya
groundiotthtematio o
of
intention his having
that simply
ofl putting that question. (Hear.) It is not, however,
his
afat I failed
dhatoll foundgive the
slightest
answer I now give. Iknow oth* h n mg w atevercf the rumours
and nothing of the belief to which the noble lord refers.
What are the means ad
knows better than I do ; busotuaarcels of his information he
no
rumours, and nothing of that belilecrlw nothing of those
ex-
tremely sceptical as to the existence 'of the one or2cmlesal am
t
reney of the other, and I am wholly hamhe cur-
any satisfaction—(oh)—to the curiosity opfab tlbeeof affording
noble lord
in regard to the question he has put. The proper
declaring the intentions of the Government with respect timeespec for
to
the motion of the hon. and gallant member for Wells will
be be when I have the honour of addressing the house in the
course of the debate, and I must request my noble friend
to have the goodness to wait till that time comes—(oh, oh)
—in or
der to obtain such information as, in the exercise of
can form with respect to the
the best judgment ss e h per-
formance of our duty and the public interests, it may then
be iu our power to give. (Cheers.)
The motion for the adjournment of the debate was then
agreed to.
The Lunacy Acts (Scotland) and the Glebe Lands(Scot-
land)q
Bills were each read a third time and passed.
S
The Indian Prize Money and the Maniagc ( ydru ont on)
Bills passed through committee.
The Lords' amendments to the Contagious Diseases Bill
were agreed to.
The following members wore nominated to form the
ftf3leet committee on ReilwayCompanies' Securities Bill and
Railway Debentures, .fie. Registry Bill :—Mr, M. Gibson,
Ilan Talbot, Si*
r P. Goldemid, Sir J. Fergusson, Mr. T.
key, Mr.
•
Goldney. Seourfield, Mr. Leeman, Mr. Ayrton, and Mr
The house adjourned at 20 •
minutes past 12 o'clock.
G

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Groat Exposi-
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description his services to Americans who intend display-
'lug their inventions at the Erenc4 exh'..bitiou will doubt-
less 'b of much Value.