The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JULY 24, 1835.

Stanley) with those who heave that it could not be a flu] mea-
sure, and his Notle Fi 'reed would not need to he under any
apprehension fos the fete ef the Bill in the other House of En-
Leughter.) His Noble Friend had asked him how
it was that he could justify to himself the separation of the two
pasts of the Bill ? He world tell him why—it was. because
1111 the discoid and confusion, all cause., of strife and blood-
shed in Ireland, were put a stop to by the first part of the
Bill. If his Noble Friend asked him whether he thought
that ',tie discontent of Ireland would. alt ether cease upon
the passing of the Cast part of the Biil, answer him,
" No ;" for whilst the Church of I: eland possessed cue hun-
dred peunds of income, there never. would he tranquillity
amongst that party Which wished to' enjoy the revenues of 1.
that Church. The course nhicli Ministers ought to pursue
was, first, to secure the peaceful collection of the Church re-
vsetess, to deal with the part of the Bill which affected the
security of prep rty, end then, and not till then, to deal with
thsie thecrits. He asked his Noble Friend, how could the
King'S Government, charged with the peace of Ireland, how
could that Che;ereatent, charged with the defence of pro-
pertv, with the maintenance of the law, and with the support
of the Irish Church, refuse to separate the two parts of the
Bill, cue portion of which they very well knew they svould
rover lie able to pass hi the Upper House ( Loud and
reherated eleeses.) There were principles in the Bill so ob-
jectiocahle in themselves., so utterly repugnant to the feelings
and ronsciences of Gentlemen, that there wes no prospect of
Parliament agrceieg, there was no possibility that any corve-
rience, that any doctrine of expediency, or of con:pre:sew,
scald induces. Parliament to sacrifice its holiest co'nvictiens upon
the sulajseet. This was the first time that he bad ever heard a
Minister of the Crown say that he had two measures actually
separate and I 'ecleeendeet both of which tended to results for
the pacification of Ireland, and both of which' he wished to
a:ono:et together, and that rather than separate them he svouid
sacrifice the tranquillity of Ireland, and unite with them who
were endcavuering to starve out the Clergy.—( Cries of " No,
no," from the INlinisterial Leaches, replied to by loud cheers
from the opposite side of the house.) Yes, replied the
Noble Lord, to starve out the Clergy of Ireland by withhold-
their legal rights. Was the House by reflecting on the
distress to which the Clergy might be driven, by feelings of
rcmpassion, was the House to be driven to consent to the
maion of the two paste of the Bill ?—( Hear, hear.) He knew
that the distress of the Clergy would be greet if the Bill
were not to be passed, and 1.0 most earnestly wished to see
pass so much of it aS would put 4 stop to passive resistance,
and tranauillise the country. lie weaeld tell the Noble Lord
that he would not succeed.—( Cheers.) believed that the
Clergy, one and all, were prepared to suffer gra:.
ater distresses
than they had yet borne. They were prepared to trtZ't to the
miserable resources of private charity rather than see a-
eiole carried into effect which they held to be destructive of
tilte interests of that religion of which they were the faithful
and -conscientious Ministers.—(Cheers.) An affirmation of
this was to be found in the address that had been presented to
the Throne by the Clergy of the diocese of. Westmeath. The
address set forth that the Clergy had been deprived of three-
tenths of their income, almost as a penalty for the discharge
of their duties as Christian Ministers. They added, that they
would most willingly submit to the present Bill, but when they
considered that the Bill contained clauses calculated not merely
to effect the overthrow of the Protestant Church, but that it
would lead to the extermination of his Majesty's Protestant
subjects in Ireland, they felt it their duty not to escape perse-
cution themselves tae the sacrifice of their successors and of all
whom they loved. The address then said that the Clergy
respectfully and earnestly implored his Majesty, that no feel-
ings for their sufferings would induce his Majesty to assent to
such a measure, fraught, as it was, with ruin to his Majesty's
Protestant subjects.—( Hear.) They hoped that under no
consideration would a Protestant Parliament be induced to give
its sanction to such a measure. He was satiafied that one part
of thenneasuste would pacify Ireland, and he implored tile House
to reconsider the question before them, and consent, at all
events, to divide the Bill.—(The Noble Lord sat down amidst
the loudest applause.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose, in the hope at that late
hoar, after three nights' debate, and after it had been said
that this question bore reference to the resolution which he
had lately introduced, that the House was desirous to bring
the discussion to a close, and to decide what was the opinion
of the House upon the question. He would endeavour to
state the qfiestion as fairly as he could, although no doubt
there were some parts of the Noble Lord's speech, particu-
larly the latter part of it, which almost trenched upon the
orders of this House.—( Hear, hear.) It certainly did appear
to him as unparliamentary.—(Loud cheers.) He might have
reason to advert to that language again ; but he must say
nosseoahat he though due to the King's Government, of which
,lie was 'a Member, that they, bringing forward this question
'soberly, conscientiously, and after long deliberation—consi-
dering that it was requisite to settle this much-disputed ques-
tion—considering that it was necessary for the peace of Ireland,
and that it would promote the good of Ireland,and tend to the ad-
Tenement of religion in that country—acting upon these
motives, and having these opinions of their measure, it was
not for them to say whether there were in that House, or in
any other House of Parliament, such a number of persons as
to be able to defeat, and to set that measure aside.—(Loud
cheering.) If his Majesty's Government did believe that
it was required for those great purposes, it was their duty
to propose it. Were it the force of an honest and conscientious
opinion, or the force of any other motive, whatever it might be,
that this measure was right, it would he dastardly and base far
•them to shrink from the uttering of their principles, or to
pause, because they were told by some gentlemen or other
that they ought to abandon a measure which would not be al-
lowed to pass elsewhere. Was he to be told that there ex-
isted; either in that House or in the other House of Parliament
a body of men so determined upon opposition to this Bill, that
no force of circumstances, no force of argument, no conside-
rations of prudence, no consideration for the future peace and
improvement of these kingdoms, would induce them to listen
to any terms—would induce them to come to any compromise
—hot that before the question had ever gone into Commitee
of the House of Commons, they were pre-determined to im-
pede the King's Ministers, and not allow them to pass the
measure at ali. If there were no other objection to that lan-
guage—if it were not indecorous to this House, it was, to
say the least of it, a libel upon the other House of Parlia-
ment.—( Cheers.) Its believed that the House of Lords
would listen calmly to everything that could he said upon this
measure. Ile would believe that if they did reject it, they
wcuid reject it after due examination. But he would not believe
that now, at this day, that before the measure had passed through
the preliminary stages in this House, they were altogether
resolved that they would give it no examination—thiit they
would enter into none of its provisions—that they would not
examine the Report of the Commissioners they had laid be-
fore them—but that they were -predetermined to persevere,
that to them, at least, should not be applied the term of a deli-
berative assembly.—(Cheering.) But such, in few words,
was the effect and meaning of what his Noble Friend (Lord
Stanley) had had the condescension to declare to the House as
a reason to induce them to forego any further considera-
tion of what he (Lord J. Russell bad hitherto thought was due
frcm them, ia the discharge of their legislative duties. he
wculd not, at that hour, enter into those parts of the Bill, and
those reasons upon which they were founded, upon which Hon.
Members had already argued with great ability and research ;
with one exception—that of the Hon. Member opposite, whose
speech was entirely upon the subject of the Poor Laws. lie
thought altogether that the discussion bad been managed by
the greatest attention to the subject, and that very great ability
had been displayed on both sides. There was one thing, how-
ever, which fell from his Right Hon. Friend, the en Mer for
Cumberlaud, that hardly seemed to come properly into the
discussion—he meant the address which his Right Ilon.
Friend read from the Synod of Dumfries—( Laughter and
cheers)—an address in which the addressers thought fit to
menace the Sovereign with a defection of their allegiance it'
the Legislature adopted this measure.—(Loud cheers.)
if any Roman Catholic agitator had presumed to say that 'if
this Bill did not pass, the allegiance of the Roman Catholics
would be dissolved, with what invective would not the Right
lion. Baronet have denounced the presumption, the boldness
--nay, the treason, of those by whom such an assertion was
made ?—(Cheers.) However, with regard to these good, well-
nominated—( Laughter and cheers)--and well-subsisted mem-

Leri of this Presbyterian Synod, he (Lord John Russell)
thought their words might be turned aside as a mere empty
menace.—( Clieer3.) Now, the main question at issue, or at
least one of the main questions, was that to which, he thought,
nearly every Memher on the other side of the House.had paid
little attention; —that question was as to the state in which
we stood with respect to the collection of tithes in Ireland.—
(Cheers.) This had been a frequent subject of discussion,
and was peculiarly so when his Noble Fiiend (Lord Stanley)
introduced his Bill or, the subject. The object of that Bill
alas to make composition of tithes .compulsory. It was his
Noble Friend's, and his own opinion, that by passing that
Bill they should.sccure the collection of tit Les. At the end

of the Siseusslon of that measure, his Noble Friend and him-

self stated their opinions upon the question of appropria-
tion—his Noble Friend stating that he never would consent
to alienate any part of the Church property, and he (Lord
J. Russell) stating on the other hand, that he thought the
property Of the Protestant Church was too great for the
spritual care of its meml?crs, and too great for its own
stability. In the following year further attempts were made
to collect tithe. But instead of persevering in those at-
tempts, it was thought necessary, by the Government of
which hi., Noble Friend was then. the organ, to make a
proposal to this House to give a million to the Irish clergy.
From that time there had been no regular collection of
tithe; and a Bill wa-, introduced last year for the purpose of
still effectl.ng that object. But did the Bill, separated from
the qucstioo of appropriation, succeed ?—(Cheers.) The
sum to be paid to the clergy was diminished—diminished, as
.he thought, too greatly—by a division in that House, in
wh.lch the Government were in a minority. The ma-
jority of the House said, " that without a very great sa-
crifice—that of 40 per cent.—they would not pass a 1311 i
for the collection of tithe." That Bill was thrown out in
the House of Lords; and he (Lord John Russell) thought it
must now Ix: a mater of regret to many that it was so thrown
Out. But did the Government succeed afterwards in collect-

ing the tithes?—(Cheers.) A P„irl,t Hon. Gentlemar; just
rosy in the House (Sir H. Hardinge) ft :J.,: there was nothing
so much to be deprecated as the u;c of ruilit4.— force in the
collectuni of tithes ; and that he himself did no believ.: that
the Housi would give its sanction to it. That Right lion
i
Gentleman then ntrodgced a Bill not containing ay
sion respecting the appropriation. Upon the introduction of
that Bill, he (Lord J. Russell) moved the resolutiOn to
which so much reference had been made, " that any surplus
not required for purposes of the...:}lorch should be applied
to the religious arid moral education of the people, without
distinction of religious persuasion." The House adopted that
resolution, and another resolution which followed, in which
it was stated that no measure on the subject of tithes in Ire-
laner could be final or satisfactory without embodying the
principle contained in the first resolution. It was neces- j

saiy to advert to these resolutions, becatre it would
he seen at once that the proposition now before the House
was to undo that vote, and to induce the 1i0u,7.2 to
separate the two measurcs, and to' say that the '
one measure proposed by the Right Honourable. Baronet
should pass, and that the other should be totally rejected.
Ills belief was, that if they attempted to collect tithes
without adopting the clauses respecting appropriation, they
would have to encounter greater chstaelcs than coal.. The
collection of tithes by law had not succeeded ; the collection
by military force hail led to lamentable results. Cochin' .
then, at the question which his Noble Friend put at the creel
of his speech, he ( Lord John Russell) wculd ask, if they
did not adopt this Bill, but adopted a separate Bill for the
collection of tithes, would his Noble Friend be able to make
that collection with peace ? Did he believe that if, he or any
other man were now in the Government, after the resolution of
this House, after the strong opinion it had pronounced, it
would he easy or practicable to collect tithes in Ireland with-
out an immense aut nictitation of the military force, witheut
coming down to that House for increased supplies, and further
measures of coercion 2—(Cheers.) Nobody could believe,
that after the resolution the House had
passed, it would be
ready to enter into ilny such contest—(Cheers)--or that it
would declare that for the sake of that principle which his
Noble Friend had stated, and which his Right Hon. Friend
(Sir James Graham) had also advocated, hut on which they
had received little support from the Right Ilan. Member for
Tamworth, Parliament would go into such a contest ; and pro-
vided they could sec the tithes collected, and the Protestant
Church in safety, they would carry on thepresent sys.tem fer the
sake of the principle, that no part of the Church revenue should
be appropriated to other than what they termed Ecclesiastical
purposes. His Noble Friend thought the present revenues
were not more than sufficient for those purposes, and that the
; object of an Established Church was to propagate that faith
which they believed to be true, and that it wits not the duty of
the State to countenance the distribution of those revenues to
other purposes ? . Now, he confessed he (Lord John Russell)
took the view which his Noble Friend ( Lord Flowick) did as
to the duty of the State with regard to a Church Establish-
ment. A Church Establishment was a means to an end,
- and he considered that end to be the promotion of good
government, and the religious benefit of the whole com-
munity. Now he could not leave out of sight the fact
that there were 6,500,000 Roman Catholics in Ireland. He
could not talk of providing for the religious wants of the com-
munity without considering that there was that large body of
people, being a great majority of the people of Ireland,
separated from the Established religion. If they meant to
reach them, and to inculcate religious instruction into their
minds, and teach them in those parts of the Christian faith
common to all, they could not do this by preaching in the
la'stablislied Church, and, therefore, they must appropriate
same - p„s! of their means to instruct them in a manner in
that way alone ;.7. which they could participate of the benefits
it was intended to Carden. This was the calm and proper view
to be taken of the subject by a abtesman. When, therefore,
he saw 3,250,000 Catholics, and only it 7,0,900 Protestants in
one province, he could not consent that the revenues derived
from that province should be exclusively devoted to the reli-
gious instruction of the 150,000 Protestants, and that nothing
should be contributed towards the religious and moral instruc-
tion of the three millions and a quarter of Catholics.—( Cheers. )
But in making provision for the instruction of Catholics, lie
would do it in such a manner as would leave an ample fund
to supply all the spiritual wants required by the Protestant
Church. The Protestant Establishment in Ireland was sanc-
tioned by the Act of Union, and was connected in a great de-
gree with the property of the country ; he therefore wished it
to remain an Established Church. He did not enter into the
views of those who said that there ought to be a Roman Ca-
tholic Church established in Ireland. He should think it a
great misfortune to this country, and a source of deep regret,
if there were such an establishment. He believed the great
majority of the Catholics in Ireland did not seek for any such
measure. He believed that the great body in this country, not
only Members of the Church, but all the Protestant Dissen-
ters, would be opposed to any such measure; He was bound,
therefore, by his views of policy, not to attempt to introduce
the Roman Catholic Church into Ireland. But this he might
do; he might provide for the Protestant Esrablishment what
was sufficient for her wants ; and he might then have a surplus
revenue applicable to other purposes, among which he
regarded us the most important the providing moral
and religious instruction for the Roman Catholics in
Ireland, by which they might become better Christians and
better members of a civilized community. There was a great
fallacy, he contended, in the argument of the. Right Hon.
Baronet, which he derived from his calculation of the number
of benefices and,Protestants throughout Ireland generally.—
(Hear, hear.) He had another calculation of his own, which
he had reason to believe was much more correct. The reset
of it was, that the revenue of the Church was 700,727/.
(Cheers.) His Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Cumber-
land (Sir James Graham), had said that he could not conceive
it possible to have a Church Establishment unless the means
of religious worship were brought home, as it were to every
man's door. Had such a state of things ever existed in
land ?—( Hear, heat'.) Had the means of religious worship
been brought home to every man's door in that part of the em-
pire ? Now, he could show his Right Hon. Friend unions of
porishes in which the church was distant from its communicants
ten, fifteen, and twenty-five miles.—(Loud cheers.) There
were 30 benefices in Ireland, in which the whole number of
Protestants were 526 ; in these benefices there were 79
clergymen, 69 of whom were non-resident, and in 42 of
them there was no church at all. Yet the total amount of their
tithe revenues was not Less than 13,8891.—(L0ud cheers.)
Making out this calculation to its utmost extent, he found
that the amount of revenue derived from these benefices
was in the proportion of 125/. for every Protestant
inhabi-
tant.--(Tremendous cheers.) He called upon that House to
say whether this was a state of things which could longer be
endured ; was it a state of things they could attempt to per-
petuate, or. one which they could expect the people of Ireland ,
would longer toleratc.—( Cheers.) To this state of things he
thought the great majority of that House were persuaded the
time of applying a remedy had arrived. That remedy his
Majesty's Government now proposed. The Bill to which the
motion of the Right Hon. Baronet referred was brought for-
ward with that view, and to that Bill they asked the sanction
of Parliament. If they passed the measure, lie maintained
they would render the collection of tithe practicable in Ireland,
and give the Established Church in that country a degree of
permanent security and stability which it bad never before
possessed.—( Cheers.) If the Bill were passed, the Roman
Catholic inhabitants of Ireland would at length consider that
their interests, their wishes, and their feelings, were not
wholly neglected by the Legislature of the--United Kingdom.
They would at length be induced to believe that they were
objects of some care and consideration with the Imperial Par-
liament.—( cheers.) That the measure was not a perfect one
he admitted ; that very great results might not he anticipated
from it he conceded ;—( Cheers ;)—but did his Noble Friend
really think they could rest as they were, without some such
Bill?—=Did he really think it possible,. without some such
measure, to support the Established Church in any form
whatsoever.—(llear, hear, and cheers.) Was he sanguine
enough, or blind enough to think it possible that they could,
by any means, or under any circumstances, succeed in effect-
ing the collection of tithe unless some such measure were im-
mediately adopted—( Renewed cheering)--the more especially
after what had recently passed upon the subject, and after the
Resolutions which that House had entered into upon the Right
Hon. Baronet's own proposition ?—( Cheers.) After the events
which bad recently occurred, there was no returning to the
old system; and even if they could retarn to it, the growing
discontent of the Irish people would render such a proceeding
utterly inefficacious. If the House passed that Bill they would
settle the questioe of tithe ; and they would secure to the
Church a certain amount of revenue. These were some of the
results which he confidently expected would flow from the
measure, which had the additional advantage of having re-
ceived the support of those who had hitherto been utterly ad-
verse to all propositions of a, similar description.—( Cheers.)
This circumstance, he trusted, would render its reception and
success in Ireland a matter of certainty ; he confidently anti-
cipated that it would be considered a work of peace, and a tes-
timony of the disposition of that House not to forget the real
claims of the Irish people, nor to be backward in redressing
the grievances of which
.they so loudly and so justly com-
plained. These were the grounds on which be urged the
House to lend its sanction to the measure, and resist the M 0...

tion of the Right Hon. Baronet. These were the grounds on
which he founded his hopes of its practical success.—( Loud
and prohinged )
O'CONNELL implored the House to pause and con-
sider the fatal cOnsequencz s which must inevitably result from
, the rejection of the measure, not only to the empire generally,
but to the lion. Gentlemen opposite, on whose actions and on
whose course of preceding alone, the consequences of that re-
jection must rest.--( Cheers.) The hopes of the Irish people
had been raised : anticipations of the redress of long-existing,
and heavy wrongs had been excited in their bosoms ; they had
been taught for the first time to feel that their brethren in
England had awakened to a sense of the demand they pos-
sessed on their sympathies and kindly feelings. He entreated
the House not to cast lightly away the good effects which this
impression had already produced. Tranquillity and peace had
even Dow been in a great measure restored. The judges in
the southern and western parts of the country had compli-
mented the grand juries on the tranquillity of their respective
districts ; the only disturbances that had been committed, had
taken place in the north of Ireland, and they had originated
with the extreme loyalists, who had so misconducted them.
selves, that it became necesszry for the soldiers to fire upon
them. He implored the House, in the strongest and most
emphatic terms he could possibly make use ef, not to accede
to the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth, the more especially after what had taken place in
tile course of the debate ; in which, al:hough great interest
had been expressed as to the number of Protestants in different
places..—HOW stated to be 120 here, then 50 there, and again "0
elsewhere—no allusion had been made to the number of Catho-
lics in the different benefices. And yet, what was the real

state of the case ? In the diocese of Armagh the total num-

ber of Protestants was 783,000, of which 517,782 were Epis-
copalians, while the number of Catholics was no less thiln
1,437,401—( Cheers)-1,437,401 Roman Catholics in the dio.
cese of Armagh alone 1---(Renewed cheering.) In Dublin the
number of Protestants was 177,930, that of the Catholics

1,630,681.—(Cheer5.) in the diocese of Cashel the number
-c Protestants was 112,434, the nurnte« of Catholics 2,220,000
and upwar,:.:. In Connaught the number of Protesiani..; wp;
444,900, tile numbei• of Catholics 1,188,500.—( Cheers.)
_
Could the Established Church i"
• T-eland, under any circum-
' ^ 'Loud cheers.)
stances whatever, be called a national church r— _
" Can you presume," continued the Hon. and 'Learnca
tleman, " can you presume, I ask you, to call the Establish..
Church of Ireland a national church ?—( Cheers.) Turn Ire-
land into a province, if you please ; call it a provincial Church,
and then I will discuss with you the point whether its ex-
tent is sufficiently Commensurate with its utility to justify the
appellation; but the mere act of calling an establishment like

this a national Chnech, is es grass a vielation of every prin-
ciple of nationality as car, he conceived. "---( Loud cheering.)
The Catholics of Ireland were five millions., and a half; the
total dumber of Protestants was one million and a half.
Count theni—atake them man for man, and what was the
result ? A balance of five millions in female of the Catho-
lies.—(Great cheering.) What did they find else ? That
there were two Catholics for every Protestant, and a
surplus el three millions and a h-if of Catholics into the
hargain. Why, was this Church Establishment—this nes
tional Church—to be eelaared ?—( Long aid f ond cheerialga )
eat
An Honourable and • Gallant Mlicr had alluded to the
town of Dundalk, and had stated that the members of the Church
were increasing in that neighbourhood. The town ar.d parish con-
tained 1,433 members of the Establishment, and when reminded
that. it included the fourteen Protestant inhabitants of Castledown,
the Hon. l'ifember asked what that had to do with the ease ? But
do not let it be forgotten, that the rector of these united parishes
was also rector of Louth.—(llear, hear.) Where, then, was the
anxious attention to the wants of the few Protestants in the parish
of Coale town ?—( Cheers.) Of course the rector of these united
parishes does full justice to the 61 members of the Church in his
parish of Loath. Where, then, was the anxiety to provide cash
clergyman with Isis 175!. ? The rector of Lends was resident, an,:
bad Only his 261 Protestant parishioners-to take care of. Why not
then give up his 2,000/. a year surplus for other purposes
( near, hear.) He would take the dioceses of Raphoe and Ardagli
as to the numbers of the members at* the Church and the Who-
hes, and even the most bigoted must admit, that he had not taken
en .unfair case, but that it was unexceptionable. le the first' of
these dioceses, then, take the 33,500 members of the establish-
ment to the 145,000 Catholic inhabitants of it, and in the lat-
ter the 17,000 Protestants against the 195,000 Catholics. The
revenues of the Church should be for the religious instruc-
tion -of the entire 400,000 inhabitants of these. dioceses.
Every parish paid tithes—there was a glebe house or land in
almost every one of the parishes of these dioceses. But take; on
the other hand, the diocese of Tuam, with its 437,000 Catholics,
against its 9,000 Members of the Establishment.—(Hear, hear.)
The establishment was intended for both the 9,000 Protestants and
the 417,000 Catholics.—( Hear, hear.) He was told, however, in
the vulgar language of authOrh y, that Protestant worship must be
maintained in every parish. Here, then, was the 467,000 CatLo-
lies and the 9,000 Members of the Church. They were told that
• the means of religious instruction must be maintained for the lat-
ter; but who was to provide for the religious instruction of the
437;000 Catholics ?_( Hear, hear.) Was it not themselves'?—
(Cheers.) They were taxed for the maintenance of the Protes-
tant Church, and they supported their own Churches, and they hail
their own Archbishops, and Deans, and Priests, and Curates, with-
out coming to the treasury of Protestants, or taking money from
their, pockets.--(Hear, hear.) They did not require Protestants
to contribute to their Church, but there were many liberal-minded
Protestants, and they received the blessings of thousands for it,
who did largely contribute to the building Catholic places of divine
worship.--( Hear.) Was not the Protestant Church as good as that
of the Catholics, that it required this adventitious aid ?—had it
not as powerful influence on the human mind ? It was said that
the Catholic religion was founded in ignorance, and could be
dispelled by education ; how, then, can those who advance
such an opinion refuse to Catholics the chance of education, out of
the funds which they mainly contribute to.—(Cheers.) But there
was an objection to educate the Catholics. It was said that they
were a benighted set, and buried in ignorance ; and that the only
remedy was education. By this means it was said that they would
be made Protestants ; then why not adopt the course, if such was
the result that was exissted?—(Hear, hear.) ifie truth was, they
charged the Catholics with ignorance, and refused the means which
they alleged would dispel it. The Hon. Member for Cumberland
had done him the honour of noticing him in a pointed manner—.
(Cheers)—a notice which he (Mr. O'Connell) had not provoked in
any way ; the Right Hon. Baronet had touched on topics which
had not previously been alluded to--he then went on to sneer at
the Catholics, and to heap his
,praise on the Protestant Dissenters
of England ; the deductions from his speech were very different
from the facts he had stated—for he had drawn out of his pocket a.
passage of Clarendon respecting the turning the Bishops out of •the
House of Lords, but instead of endeavouring to excite unne-
cessary fears he should rather have deplored what had brought
matters to that point.—(Cheers.) He should have deplored
their conduct, and remembered, that the Bishops occupied
themselves in hunting out where the Dissenters had last been
at prayers, and pursued such a course of persecution, as ex-
cited the indignation of the people of England.—( Hear, hear.)
He should not have forgotten that they had lent themselves in
every instance to palliate the crimes of the Court.—(Cheers.)
When the Right Hon. Gentleman sneered at the Catholics and
praised the Protestant Dissenters of England—and endeavoured to
excite alarm by alluding to the expulsion of the Bishops from the
other House, he might have remembered that this was done by the
provocations heaped upon the Protestant Dissenters, and that there
was not a single Catholic then in Parliament, who voted for the
Bishops-retaining their seats in the Upper House.—( Cheers.) They
then pursued a consistent and zealous, but a mistaken course of po-
licy.—( Hear, hear.) Was this then a topic for the Right Hon.
Member to sneer at the Catholics for ? Was he justified in taking
up such topics in a way which, to say the least of it, was utterly un-
justifiable ?—(Hear, hear.) But what had the Church gained by
the rejection of the Bill of last year?—( Cheers.) By that Bill the
Protestant clergyman was to receive 771. 10s. per cent. from the
Treasury, and to be exempted from all the trouble and anxiety of
collecting his tithes. Had the Irish Clergy then gained by the
rejection of the Bill of last year as compared with either of the
measures that had been introduced in the present session ?
(Cheerso The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer proposed in his
Bill to give the Irish clergman 2/. 10s. per cent, less than lie
would have received by that rejected by the House of Lords last
year. A further reduction was to be made in this measure ;
so that if this measure was passed, 51. 10s. per cent. would
be lost to the clergy in every. 1001.—(Hear, hear)—more than
would have been the case, if the Bill of last year had not been de-
layed. But if this measure was rejected, what would be the Bill of
next year ?—(Loud cheers.) The Bill of last year was rejected,
which the Noble Lord had opposed in consequence of so much be-
ing taken from the Church ; but he hinted that. that prt of the Bill
of this year, which was to reduce the income of the clergy .to
731. ss. per cent., should have his approval.—( Cheers.) So, then,
this year, those are ready to accept 73!. ss. who rejected the Bill
cif last year, which was to give the clergy 771 10s. per cent.—
The Right Hon. Bennet might despise the Catholics of Ireland,
and might call upon the House to throw out this measure ; but
what did his Church gain by the rejection of the Bill of last year ?
(Cheering.) Had the Church gained by the massacres that had
taken place, because that Bill did not pass?--(Oh!) Had it
gained—was it by the slaughter of the men at Rathcormac, whose
lives would have been spared if this Bill had not passed?—( Cheers.)
Had the Church gained by the rejection of that Bill ? He would
appeal to the wailing of the widow and the screams of the children,
and the moaning of the parents—for the husband's, and father's,
and offspring's blood that had been shed at liathcormac.—
(Loud cheering.) Were more nathcormacs desired ?—(Renewed
cheering.) he Cat holies of Ireland were not only treated
with disregard, but with contempt. In passing through Con-
nemara, ten Protestants would hardly be met with in the district,
which was not equal to one to a square mile, and yet a Protestant
Establishment must be kept up in that part of the country. You
are strong, observed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and will
you tell the Catholics of Ireland that their feelings and judgments
alien be outraged, and that they shall still be exposed to every in-
justice ? Will you tell them that although they are upwards of
7,000,000, their feelings shall be wounded and insulted, and their
interests sacrificed for the gratification of 800,000 persons ?
( Cheers.) It may be proper that the 800,000 shall have provision
made for their a eligious instruction ; but will you not allow the
overwhelming majority of the Irish nation to receive any share of
education, the funds for which are mainly furnished by themselves,
lest they should be improved ?—( Cheers.) Aral who pursues such
policy—what statesman, forsooth ?—(Loud. cheers.) He could not
help smiling at the pions Sergeant saying that the numbers of the
Irish Church hadnotinereased, becauseit had been so poor for such a
series of years.—(Laughter.) He thought he saw the tears flowing
down the Learned Sergeant's cheeks when he uttered such a pious
lamentation.—(Laughter.) These receivers of tithes, then, were
so poor, that they could net propagate their religion in Ireland,
and yet it might be thought that the Catholic priest would be
poorer, who received no tithes. The lamentation was that there
was no corn in Egypt, but how just was the remark. Allusion had
been made to the island Aehlin, the Protestant incumbent of which
received 9007, aevear. A person had been sent ever to that island
from Exeter-halr to convert the Catholics. He took out with bin:

a capital of 2,5001., and took co. number of 1 rotestants with him,
which were daily inertasing. As the island at the time was over-
flowing with population, the people were dissatisfied and drove the
settlers elsewhere, and yet this had been the ground of attack on
the Catholic Church. The same circumstances would certainly
have taken place elsewhere. He could not refrain from laughing
at the importance attached to the increase of the number of Pro-
testants in some parishes. Any person who carefully looked at the
two colunlns in the Report—the one taken in 1830, and the other
in 1831—would see that the latter was rather a correction of the
former ; he, however, did not place the slightest reliance on such
returns. In one parish, near his own residence, it had been stated
that there had been a great increase in the Protestant inhabitants
in the course of three years, namely—lrons 32 to 49. Now, it so'
happened that 16 Protestants had been transferred from one parish
to another. The keeper of the water-guard and his family had been
moved from one side of the river to the other. So much for the
-increase of Pro:estants iu that, quarter. Ii there had been an .
in-
crease in one parish, there bad been accompanying diminution in
another.—( Cheeus. ) In another case an apparent increase had taken
place by a Protestant relative of- his own and his family coming to
reside in a parish. This, however, was miserable. special pleading
with an important question. He would not follow the Right Hon.
Member for Cumberland through the length of his speech. Ile
had, amongst other things, alluded to the Church of Scotland.
But how did the Scots acquire their Church ? Were there no
Grahams or Grwmes—no knights of the bright aord in those '
days.—( Shouts of laughter.) Had the Grahams fallen from their
former chivalry--(Laughter)—when they were so anxious to risk
nothing ? These who cwiquered for the religion of their country,
risked everything for it. The Right Hon. Baronet, however,
would risk nothing._( Cheers.) They had also received a lecture
on charity by one of the Members for Berkshire, whom he did not
then see. Oh ! he perceived that the Hon. Member had moved
over the way ; he congratulated him on his change of place—he
was in his proper hemisphere—he was now in his proper element.
The lion. Member reminded him of—

" The last rose of summer—(Great laughter)
Left blooming alone
All its lovely companions
We: e faded and gene !"
_(Cheers and shouts of laughter, which lasted same minute. 7.)
The Hem. Gentleman had shown a great deal of cunning, which
and those points
gree kinde
odni d mw
clhiedaupi pneoatrehduitto
hbiem
jinni seliig'ahrtietastbldee
was willing to give poor laws to Ireland, forsooth, which could not
affect bins the Slightest degree. The Hon. Gentleman reminded•
him of the man who gave ;,torte wlien asked for bread.—
(Cheers.) He said that he would not consent to dispeu4e with
any portion of the revenues of the Protestant Church m Ireland,
Would Enuland give anything for the mainta7nance of the Catholic
clergy ? fi'cre the peoplP QI irPlanii to continuo to pay the Pro-
testant clergy, if this measure did not pi-ps'i They regarded it as
the earnest of the future peace and tranquility of Ireland, and wore
their hopes to be disappointed, and the cup of expectation again tq
be flashed from their lips ?—(Cheers.) By the Bill of last year, the
million advancc:cl to the Irish clergy was to be repaid to the Eng-
lish Treasury; but what was the ti lit Mgt. aro CiAllilut Gfficerl9
proposed amendment to this? The million was to be allowed to
the clergy, and no po Von of that sum was to be repaid. The plan
of the present Ministry was to give up the million to the clergy,
and by doing so, to endeavour to make a purchase of the peace of
Irelacol..,-( Cheers.) Twenty millions wcre freely given to remove
the stain of slaVery 'from Brill 1:1 colonies, and was the House
unwilling to give one million to reliciT" the (at:holies porn the pp,
pression of that grinding faction which had crushed the country to
' dust—which had deeply imbued its hands in the blood of'the
people or rrn.—and was now as anxious as ever to pursue a simi-
lar course ?—(LOitil The passing this measure would
produce a great, an electric effect throughput Rebind. It wonld
proclaim to the people of that country-the dot vnfait of those who
had tyrannized over them—the dismissal of that faction which had
ever exerted itself to oppress and crush them to the earth.—

_

,„.
t Cheers. ) Even now the toast was drunk of " Protestant Ascen-
dancy ;" that was. tilt there should not be equality, but that one
party should dem:nosr over another. The late, however, had put
Catholics on a footin3k, of equality with Protestants, and if the
attempt wee mule to nut thjrn down,' they would reply, " We
ere 7,C0t),M0, and will not be oppressed by a miserable mina-
rity."--4 Loud cheers. ) Was the House proud of putting its
hnnis into the pockets of the Irish people for the purpose of
taking tithes for the maintenance of the Protestant clergy ?
Oral-, hear.) He thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir
-fames Graham) :or the sneers that he had indulged in at the
(2:shines. Flo v.-as 'a matt cf nice conscience : Corn and
Currency was formerly Lis maxim ; now it must be Consci-
ence and Candour.—(Great laughter.) He had. taunted him
(Mr. O'Connell) agent the bloody- head and bones. The sneer
"came extremely well from such a quarter ; half Reformer—half
bigot—(and as we understood the lion. and Learned Gentleman)
—pallid with fear on one side, insolent with temerity on the ether.
—(Great cheering.) Ile. would keep up the apparition before the
Right lion. Gentleman, and set up the bloody head and bones for
a coat of arms for him.—(Cheers and laughter.) The great eb-
ject of the people of Ireland was to procure peace and tranquillity
front the British empire. All that they demanded was justice; it
had been long withheld from them, and they demanded-an inde-
pendant legislature. • The demand was made, and the proposition
was met with an. overwhelming tnejsfity of that House and :he una-
nimous vote of' the other House; but then the too branches of the'
Legislature solemnly promised to adopt immediate steps to get rid
of the grievances of Ireland. He asked, were they or were they
not prepared to fulfil their promises?—(Cheers.) The
Right lion. Baronet opposite and his friends had never in their
whole career benelii ed Ireland by more than a single measure, and
that was invariably disfigured by their pointing to one individual
end stigmatizing him. He remembered the origin of the career
of the Hon. Member for - Cambridge, and it furnished
a melancholy story ; but he certainly, with most beau-
tiful consistency, held out to the last, and in the end.pronounced
his Mil eulogium. On what ground could they object to the
present proposition? It provided for the sniritted wants of the
Protestants, and it gave to the Catholics nothing more than just as
much education as could be provided for them by the surplus.—
(Cheers.) They were told that ecclesiastical property was inalien-
able.- Was it so? Did it not originally belong to the Roman Ca-
tholics, and was it not wrested from them? Was it inalienable?
If so, he claimed it.—( Cheers.) The power which gave it to
them, had the power to take it away. He put it to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Cumberland, if a few Roman Catholics found their way to
Cockermouth and insisted on taxing the Protestants, what would
he say ? Wonld he not resort to his bright sword to resist the in-
novation. He would resist to the death, and he would have a right
to do so. The people of Ireland did not resist. To be sure they
had got a habit of not paying—(Great.laughter)—though per-
hal s the iocose speech of the Noble Lord on the subject of his own
religion might coax them into doing so. • This was their time to
introduce the principle contained in this Bill. They slid wronglast
year in rejecting it. Why was it rejected ? Why, because a Noble
Duke—No; he begged his pardon—he believed that Noble Duke
strove against the opposition, seeing what the probable effect would
be to the clergy ; but he was overwhelmed, and acquiesced in
the violence of those whose violence and bigotry were allowed
to prevail. He hoped they would see no more religion stained
with blood—he hoped they would see no more of the piety which,
while it raised the eyes in devotion, foundamusket with the b tyonet
fixed.--(Cheers.) Let them not be swayed, at such a time as this,
by considerations of pounds, shillings, and pence, but let them
rather, in the noble spirit of benevolence, endeavour to infuse
peace and tranquillity into Ireland.—( Cheers.) [We regret in
consequence of the lateness of the hour at which Mr. O'Connell
addressed the House, that we have been obliged to curtail a consi-
derable portion of the Hon. and . Learned Gentleman's eloquent
speech, which was listened to throughout with the' most marked
attention, and was repeatedly interrupted-by loud and long conti-
nued cheerings.] On the Hon. and Learned Gentleman resuming
his scat, there were loud cries of". Divide."
The House then divided, when there appeared-
-. For the Amendment
Against it
Majority for Ministers
The House then went into Committee pro forma, and resumed
almost immediately, when the Chairman reported progress, and
obtained leave to sit again.
The other Orders of the Day werithen:dispose(l of, and the House
adjourned at half-past three o'clock:

- PRICES OF STOCKs Tl-11.:
Rank Stock
...21554 16
3 eer Cent. Red ......... ......01 90%
3 per Cent. Com.— ..... 9114 %
3j per Ct.T. R
99 1.4
Ditto lied 99% 'B"Ti,
New 3',4 per Cent......... 98% Sv %
3 per Cent. f tlte,"
s •
ser
i :gsentcd —
Bank Long, nnuiticsto expire
Jan. 5, .410 16 15-16%
Oct. 1:1, IF5il 16 11.16
Jan. 5, ism —
J;e:i. 5, ISW —
April 5, NW - —
Jan. 5. 1876 —

PRICES OF 1,(:::.F.1GN FUNDS
Austrian Bonds
Beigian BondS
Ditto Account
Brazilian Bonds 66% 6
Ditto Account
Buenos Ayre3 Bands
I )itto Account
Chiltic,ii Bonds 45
Ditto Account
Cointribian Bonds ••
Ditto Account
Cohnotiian Bonds, Nr2l
Ditto Account
Danish Bonds
Ditto Account
Greck Bonds
Dittr. Prindzi 1925
• Ditto Account
Mexican Botnis, cent.— •
Ditto Acconnt
`Ditto, 6 per cent
Dito Account
Nt-,anelitan

PRICES OF IRISH STO
3 per Cent. Consols 9ON
Itto Ileduce.l
I±:',, y:er ('ent. Stocl- 9814
Ditto New, 1830
".f. ~er Cent. Debentures...— 9l3a'
Ihnk Stock '2'23 34
Royal ('anal Stock.
(;rand Canal Stock 93

DAY AT ONE O'COLCK.
New 5 per Cent
India 5t0ck..........
Ditto Bonds
South Sea Stock
Old Annuities
New Ditto
3 per Cent. Annuities, 1751...
Exch. Bills, .El,OOO ...... 29 31 pm.
Ditto 500 29 31 pm.
Ditto Small
Ditto Commercial
Ditto Advertised — pm.
Bank Stock for Account --
India Stock for Account
Consols for A ccou t 'fl

.•• ••• es
255% 6
10 12 pm

THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK.
Peruvian Bonds .. . —
Ditto Account
Portugueseßonis —
Ditto Account —
Ditto New Bonds 913 i ‘,.
Ditto Account 9114
Prussian Bonds —
Ditto BondS, Pk?, —
Russian Bonds, IS2" —
Ditto Account —
Otto Metallic —
Spanish Bonds 52 1/4 1%
Ditto Account 52 Iti
Ditto Bonds, 1531 4l B'2
Ditto Account —
French, 5 per cent. —f. —c

.....—. 4 per cc'''. —f. —c
.....-111.. 11 per c.nit. —f. --c.
Exclintigc r. —c
Dutch, 514,, rer cent. 51% %
Ditto Account —
DO to, 5 per c,iit 10: ?8 34
11itto Account

DUBLIN, JULY '2l
Grand Canal Deb, 6 per cent. 111%
-Ditto, 4 per cent 6O
Itank
City of Dublin Mean] Co. 167
Naiional Insurance Cc.:npany 3154
City Debentures, 4 per cent 7934
Ballast Office Debentures, 4
pa• cent

PIZICES OF SHARES. THIS DAY AT.ONE O'CLOCK.
Paid. Per Share
Uteri Mining'Company -ClO%
Brazilian Imperial Mininli
g Co. (issued at W. pm.) 21., :17
fl I(IFI V

NATt-.7.3 AT LONDON' 1111IDGE'TO-11011.1ZOW.
Mort.itv, !A minutes after 1. I livening......Elmititites after 2

HAMBURG, MAY 1835.
E thelN sET BA
TREO.Tf
HHAEmllßuSiwCps
GNRTEIIAT
LCOIT'OTERRSo
lEfsr.
being requested to publish the Scheme of the approaching Sixty-
sixth Lottery in the English Papers, and to have Tickets on Sale,
with Agents in England, ben. to state that neither can he done,
because it is illegal for the English Newspapers to publish Foreign
Lottery Schemes, and for any Agents in England to sell Foreign
LoCery Tickets. On the other hand, they beg to state, as it is
NOT illegal for any person in England to PURCHASE Foreign
Lottery Tickets, that any person desirous to purchase, on addressing
them by mail, willreceive a full Scheme, and any desirable infor-
mation on the subject (Gratis), by return of post.

0 N APPROACH of 12th AUGUST,
We beg to remind the Public that
NO TIME IS TO BE LOST
In giving Orders, if they are desired to meet attention, before

A RISE IN PRICE. -.
Orders, accompanied by 101. notes, directed to us, without delay,
may still be attended to at W.. and 2./. fur the balance will be re-
turned on executing the order, by return of post.
HEINE• BROTHERS.
Hamburg, 23d June, 1885.
P. S. Direct, HEINE BROTHERS, in HAMBURG.

The pulcortion of TUN SUN NEWSPAPER commenced this day
at 20 minutes past 3 o'clock.

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