The Sun.
London, England, 1835-08-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAHL' AMENT.

THIS DAY, TUESDAY, Arc. 18.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAK a took the Chair a few minutes after twelve o'clock.

PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS BILL.

The Hou'se went into Committee on this Bill, Mr. PILYME in
the Chair. _ _

Mr. TOOKE thought the House would stultify itself if it przsed
this Bill through the present stage with the clause relative to the
compulsory rate. The Learned Member concluded by moving that
the clause be omitted. .

. Mr. WARBURTON thought that the House ought to confine
its attention to those measure' that were really intended to be passed
in the course of the present Session. It was evident the present
measure was not intended to be passed during the Session.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM trusted that the House would pass the
Bill with as much rapidity as possible.
Mr. WYSE was in favour of the assessment. His opinion
was in favour of such a power being given to Municipal bodies,
but as the Bill relative to those Corporate bodies had not yet passed,
it was absolutely necessary that the Hon. Member should introduce
some machinery, and the only question was whether that machinery
was good or not. He thought the objection to that machinery was
not well founded, as it provided that at least two-thirds of the rate-
payers should be in favour of that measure, and es the assessment
was limited to six pence in the pound, it was quite obvious that
this system could not be open to the same objections as otherswhich
would tend to impose heavy burdens upon the people. It was
absurd to suppose that the rate-payers of populous towns would be
so indifferent to their own. interests as not to attend the public
meetings, and object to any improper "or extravagant proposition.
Public opinion, the Press, and the conversation of the inhabitants,
one with another, would operate as checks upon any lavish or ex-
travagant expenditure. On these grounds he should certainly give
his decided support to the Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would be much better to allow
the Bill to remain over -for further consideration, as there were
many objections to be urged against it. He thought the Bill too
operose, and the machinery too extensive and complicated, and it
would in his (Lord J. Russell's) opinion, be Unwise to entrust
it in the hands of persons who were not personally interested in the
education of the people. He was of opinion that national educa-
tion should be always made a public charge.—( Hear, hear.) So
long as the education of the people was confided to societies who
promoted it by private contributions and voluntary aid, and who
were willing to devote their time andlabour to its advancement and

maintenance, it was all well ; but if once the public at large were com-
pelled to contribute, those who were assessed could insist to interfere
in the election of the governing body. Those who were not inte-
rested in the education of the people, and who were liable to act as
its conductors, would allow the whole system to languish. He had
no objection to allow the Bill to go through the Committee, with
the understanding that it would not be pressed further during the
present session.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE would be inclined to agree with those
Hon. Members who were for throwing out the Bill altogether.
He had no idea that the Bill would have passed the second reading,
and so far as he was individually concerned he had made up his
mind to give it the most decided opposition. Was not legislation
upon such matters as the following most absurd. [The Right
Honourable Gentleman here read a passage from the Public
if Bill, and the mistake excited considerable laugh-
ter.] The idea of providing tables, chairs, &c., for the
use of the public hall was absurd as a piece of legislation.
The Hon. Member perhaps meant well, but it did not sheer as
much discrimination as he (Sir J. C. IL) would expect from the
maturity of the lion. Member's judgment. He should most de-
cidedly oppose the Bill.
Mr. WARBURTON objected also to the principle of the Bill.
lie Was afraid if compulsory taxation was reserted to it would
make instruction unpopular among the people. The proposed in •
stitutions bore the same respect to scientific institutions as the Es-
tablished Church bore to other religious establishments.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN was in favour of the measure, and wished

to see the Continental system introduced into England.—( Hear. )
He hoped that hereafter, not only with reference to that institu-
tion, but to all others of a similar kind, they would encourage the
principle of local assessment, far the purpose of erecting establish-
ments of this-kind. He would give to the poorer classes of the
cominunity.those opportunities of rational and intellectual enjoy-
ment, which were now denied them ; and because he thought this
Bill would in some measure have this effect, he would support it.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM—The British Museum was supported by
a compulsory assessment, levied on the country, and so was the Na-
tional Gallery. The majority had to decide, and the minority were
bound to assent to the agreement. But this Bill was not compulsory,
—fifty rate payers must first sign the requisition before a meeting
can be held, and when that meeting was held two-thirds of the rate
payers must give their assent, with the knowledge that they must
themselves pay the rate. This Bill would have a strong tendency
to raise the moral habits of the working classes. Many men after
their working hours were desirous of indulging their social feelings
in talking with their neighbours ; this at present they could only,
do at the public-house, where they proceeded for this purpose, and
net, as he believed, to drink. This Bill would provide places of
recreation free from the temptation of strong drink. Ile hoped
therefore that the House would permit the Bill to pass through
Committee ' • and if, after it should be amended, the sense of the
House should be decidedly against the Bill, it might be expressed
on the third reading.
Mr. EWART had the greatest respect for this Bill, but he must
confess that in his opinion its provisions would be better adminis-
tered by the local Councils under the Municipal Bill.—(hear,
hear.) In the principle of the Bill he cordially agreed.
Mr. PEASE reminded the Committee that two-thirds of the
rate-payers must be brought to the poll, and must express them-
selves willing to incur the rate. They were the best judges of the
habits and morals of the community who were to be served by this Bill,
and he, therefore, felt bound to advocate its principle. rhe stop-
ping of foot paths and Enclosure Bills had deprived the lower classes
of many rational amusements, and it was desirable, therefore, that
in every way they could they should open to them new sources of
innocent and healthful amusement. The assessment under this
Bill must be, to all intents and purposes, voluntary; and he knew
that in many places the majority of the rate-payers would avail
themselves of the opportunity presented by this Bill. The great
object of legislation should be prevention, not punishment; they
had gone to the extreme on the other side, it was time now to try
ptevention. He looked at this measure as one that would be essen-
tially beneficial to the working classes, and he would, therefore,
support it.

'Mr. 'TOOKE would certainly take the sense of the House up-
on the clause' unless upon the understanding that the Bill should
not be passed. He would have done this earlier, but that the
House was in such a state, that if he proceeded to a division, much
public business would be impeded, and he certainly expected that
this Bill should not be passed. He did not understand what was
meant by saying that the rate was not compulsory. It was
clearly as compulsory as any other rate or taxation in the
district. The rate was to be agreed to, not by two-thirds of the
rate payers generally, but of those that attended upon the occasion
of the meeting, which was a very different thing. He thought,
also, there ought to be some limit, say 201. or 301.—some given
amount under which persons should not be rated; it ought not to
be levied on the humblest and the lowest classes.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) He had heard, with much regret, his Hon. Friend
say that he entertained any doubt about the passing of the Munici-
pal Reform Bill. That Bill would certainly pass—(Loud cheers)—
and ultimately in a manner satisfactory to the country.—( Renewed
cheering.) He thought that the provisions of this Bill and its
principle could be most beneficially carried into effect under the au-
thority and the auspices of the- Municipal Reform Bill. He en-
treated 11:s Eon. Friend to consider the expediency of pressing this
Bill. Many of its provisions would depend in a great measure upon
the provisions of the Bill now in progress through the other House.
Some legislation would he thereby saved, and tie hoped his Hon. Friend
would sec the expediency under all circumstances, and considering
the late period-of the session, of not proceeding further with the
labour of this impossible Bill. He had no objection to allowing it
to be amended in Committee, upon the understanding that it should
not be pressed to the third reading. If the Hon. Member conceded, he
should be happy to suggest such alterations and amendments as had
occurred to his mind upon a cursory perusal. If, however, he in-
sisted upon dragging the Bill through the House, he (Mr. Tooke)
would flake the sense of the Committee upon this clause, and
—though he regretted he had not done so on an earlier day—upon
the principle of the Bill.
Mr. RUTHVEN was very averse to giving so much power to
any individuals as was done by this Bill, and therefore he would
oppose it. He thought the Bill one entirely for the rich, and not
for the poor. Mechanics' Institutes were much more useful and
• convenient. Tea gardens, &c., were not fitted for the habits of
this people—they were more manly than the habits of the people
of other countries, where the public gardens abounded,
Mr. WAKLEY—The mode of legislation taken upon this Bill
was very much derogatory to the business of the House. No
division had taken. place upon the former stages of the Bill, and
now they wero going to divide upon it after wasting much time.
He trusted they would not divide now, as he would be sorry that it
should go forth to the public that they were unwilling to tax the
community for the purpose of instituting public institutions, when
they did so for the purpose of building workhouses and bowls. The
ignorance of the people was excessive. He remembered during the
last election for Devon, he heard some farmers calling out " No
Lord John Russell—no Reform—no Popery." The same man, who
was a renter of 300 or 400 acres, when asked whether he wished
for vote by ballot, answered, " I don't know ; I always goes on
horseback." And when asked again, he said, " I don't know ; I
always goes round by Dawlish."—(Loud laughter.)
Mr. BUCKINGHAM refused to withdraw the Bill, to be made
the scape-goat of the House. If they objected to the Bill, let them
throw it out.
_He would certainly press his motion.

Sir E. CODRINGTON hoped the Hon. Member would press
it, to see who was against the Bill. Constant agitation upon the sub.
ject was the only way in which to secure success.
The Gallery was cleared. The Committee divided, when there
appeared—
For the Clause
For the Amendment
Majority ..
On our re-admission, we found Mr. TOOKE moving that Mr.
Pryme do leave the Chair, which was carried without a division.
The Bill, consequently, was postponed.