The Sun.
London, England, 1832-08-07 00:00:00

GREECE.

Lord PALMERSTON moved the order of the thy for
the House taking into consideration the Convention re-
specting Greece, and enabling his Majesty to carry into

-feet the provisions thereof. -
Mr. HUME objected to this motion being made at this
period of the session, and after so short a notice as had
bee❑ given of it. He thought the House ought to have
more time to consider of such a proposition as that which
the Noble Lnrd was now about to submit to die House,

involving, as it did, a large amount of the public money.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that the notice of this mo-
tion had been given so long ago as Friday last ; and the
matter was of that nature that it could not be delayed
without great possible injury as to the object in view.
The House were acquainted with the state of the affrirs of
Greece at the time that Prince Leopold declined the ac•
ceptance of the Sovereignty. Matters had remained,
at least with respect to the three Powers, much in
the same state in which they then were, from that
period up to the present time, and the Powers
had not been able to afford them that considera-
tion which, but for particular circumstances, they would
have given. When they were again able to direct their
attention towards Greece, the first consideration they bad
to determine was, who was the person to be selected to
reig❑ over that country. Prince Otho, of Bavaria, was
named, and the King of Bavaria had accepted the throne
for him. The Convention to which he now wished to
direct the attention of the House was then signed, and the
engagement with respect to the loan was entered into.
The Government thought the terms of the arrangement, as
concluded in IS3O, were not sufficiently precise with re-
spect to the loan, and they therefore required stipulations of
a more definite kind to guard against the possibility of al.y
pecuniary charges being put upon this country in conse-
quence of the guarantee. It was therefore stipulated that
the loan should not be raised at once, hut in three portions;

and the revenues of Greece should be appropriated to the
payment of the interest of the loan before they were applied
to any other purposes. The present Government had no
choice as to engaging in the guarantee with regard to the loan,
for the previous stipulations on that subject had been made
to the States of Greece, and not to Prince Leopold alone,
so that they could not be annulled by the fact of his declin-
ing the sovereign authority. That the interest of the loan
would be regularly paid he had no doubt ; for the revenues
of Greece, wasted as that country had been by a long
and desperate struggle fur independence, were not now
inconsiderable, and might be doubled by a better mode
of collection. He did not, therefore, think it likely that
the burden would be cast on this country ; for he be-
lieved that Greece would have sufficient, not only to pay
the intere-t of the loan, but he had very little doubt
that she would be able to dispense with the Powers fur-
nishing the third portion of the loan itself. The cause of
Prince Leopold declining to accept the sovereignty of
Greece was a difference of opinion as to what ought to be
the frorrier boundaries of that country. It had been pro-
posed that they should extend from Volo to Arta, which
would give Greece a well-defined mountain line of boun-
dary. But to that art angement Turkey objected, and it
was felt that Turkey could not be required at once to cede
that question, without receiving some compensation for the
provinces of Etolia and Acarnania. Negotiations had
been entered upon with reltion to this question ; and
though he was not now able to say positively that those
negotiations had come to a satisfactory conclusion, yet lie
might say that he was informed such had been the result,
and that the Turkish Government had consented to restore

that frontier for a pecuniary compensation, the amount o:
which he would not state till he was quite sure as to the
sum and mode of payment. That question thus decided
was of the utmost possible importance, since without such
a frontier the safety and independence of the new state
could not have been well secured. The expense of that com-
pensation must of course be defrayed out of the loan which,
by the guarantee of the three Powers, was now to be
raised, as it was impossible to expect that Greece would be
able to pay it out of her ordinary revenues. Even this,
however, was not a new engagement entered into by the
present Government, but was one which they found subsist-
ing when they entered effice,and the reasons for which were
as strong now as they ever had been, and indeed stronger.
The Hon. Member opposite objected to this question being
brought forward at this period ofthe Session. His answer to
that objection was, that the delay of the final adjustment
would he most injurious to Greece. The affairs of Ler go-
vernment could not be carried on without money. The money
she at present required, under the particular circumstances
lie had alluded to, could not be raised in Greece at this mo-
ment. Yet it was necessary that it should be raised. To
delay what was now asked would be to refuse it, for to
grant it at a future period would be to grant it without
its producing the advantages that were expected from it at
this moment. It was not because Greece, after the long
and desperate struggle in which she had been engaged,
was unable to go on without a loan at this moment, that
she would be unable to repay it when her affairs had been
settled, and she had had the opportunity of developing her
resources under more favourable circumstances. He re-
peated that the n resources of the country were
sufficient to authorize the expectation that she would, at
no distant time, attain as much wealth and importance as
any of the other small states of Europe, such as Genoa
and Venice, had heretofore attained.
was not
Mr. BEST had only seen the papers on which the
motion was founded, on Saturday morning, and he
prepared, by the cursory reading which he had, given to
N
them, to controvert all the statements of the Noble Lord.
But, although he might never sit in that House again, he
felt bound to ask the House and the country, if this
country was justified, in the present state of its finances,
in guaranteeing the payment of 500,0001., by a State
which was not likely to be able to pay it.—(Hear, hear.)
He would ask the Nur.le Lord, was it not the fact, that a
very large portion of the first instalment was pledged to
Turkey, to pay the indemnity guaranteed ta that State for
territory ceded to Greece? It the object of the loan was
to enable Greece to improve her resources, how could that
be effected if so large a portion were to be absorbed in the
payment of the indemnity; and would not the guarantee
be thereby seriously deteriorated. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROBINSON had great objection to those engage-
ments, by which this country was made liable for the
debts of other nations ; and on the present occasion he
would ask, how could the readiness of the Government to
give the guarantee be reconciled with the statement of the
Noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), the other
night, respecting the finances of this country'—(Hear,
hear.) Tile only excuse that could be offered for the pre-
sent Government was, that this guarantee was a legacy
left by their predecessors.—(Hear.) But, whatever
might have been the engagements of the late Government,
dependent upon the event of Prince Leopold's acceptance
of the throne of Greece, the present Ministers could not
be bound by those engagements, when the original condi-
tions were so completely altered. He admitted that there
some force in the argument that the effect of the new loan
would be to put Greece in a condition to pay the former
loans;—(Hear, hear)—but he thought that it could'give
little satisfaction to the persons to whom Greece was in-
debted, when they saw all the revenue of that country
pledged to the payment of the new loan. He deprecated
the readiness of Ministers at all times to subsidize Con-
tinental Powers with English money ; arid from what he
had observed of the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer
and his colleagues when they sat or, the Opposition side of
the House, he should not have expected that they would so
closely have followed the example of their predece•isors.--
(Hear, heat.) He hoped, however, that the present
would be the last transaction of the kind in which they
would, he implicated.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to ask
whichwere to
advisers begoverned
should
the Noble Viscount (Palmerston) what security the Greeks
were to have as to the nature of the institutions under
?tsettle Was
theit f
intendedorm
of thatdie
the they Prince v
and re
Government as they might think proper ?—(Hear.)
Mr. 11. GURNEY trusted that the House would not
consent to involving the country in so hazardous a
at a time when our own finances were in a state of so
much difficulty. All the proceedings between this country
and Greece, from first to last, both public and private,
were the acme of absurdity.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. WELLESLEY vindicated the Government from
the charge of having unnecessarily involved the country in
this engagement; for, if his recollection did not misgive
him, the Duke of Wellington's Administration had pledged
was proposed to put Leopold at the head of the
the country to the ratification of the guarantee, when it
Prince
new Greek State. Ile did not think that Russia would
have been a party to the guarantee if there were not a
positive certainty that Greece would be able to repay the

loan. The effect of the loan would be to place Greece in
a condition in which she could maintain her inde-

pendence ; and that was a result which would be
highly advantageous to England. On those grounds, and
because the honour of the country was bound to ratify
the guarantee, he supported the motion for the Committee.
Mr. T. P. COURTENA V. observed that it must be
full iu the recollection of every Member whom he had the

honour to address, that after the rejection of the proposi-

tion made by Prince Leopold, the late Government never
entered into any negociation whatever respecting the loan
which now formed the subject of discussion in the House.
Throughout the papers which he examined on the subject,
he had not observed that the Government of this country
had done anything more than make a small advance to an
agent of the Greek Government resident in Paris. It had
been alleged that the present Government of this country
was hound to proceed in this matter, because the business
of interference had been commenced by the preceding Ad-
minstration. He confessed he saw no sufficient reason for
setting up a doctrine of that nature, nor could lie at all
understand how the present Government, in this transac-
tion at least, whatever they might do in others, were at all
hound by the acts of a former Ministry. The fact was,
so far as loins or conventions were concerned, we
were not bound. But as the late Government could
not by their acts hind the present, neither could they be
in fairness held responsible for the original interference, on
the simple ground that they were not parties to that in•
terference, it having taken place before they came into
office. They were certainly r.o parties to that Conven-
tion, a leading feature of which was the nomination of
Prince Otho to the throne of Greece—a nomination not
only not desired by the late Government, hut directly disap-
proved of by them. It had been suggested that there
ought to he a short postponement of the present motion,
for the purpose of enabling Hon. Members to come to a
sounder and more advised conclusion upon that important
question. To such a postponement he confessed he saw
no objection.
Mr. RUNE expressed great surprise, that the Members
of an Administration which had taken office on the de-
clared condition of non-interference with foreign States,
should outdo their predecessors in a course of the most
ill-advised interference. Could they suppose that it would
be in their power to reconcile the discordant elements of
which the Greek nation was composed, by placing
over them a boy of seventeen, or three men representing
that boy? It was idle in the extreme to suppose that a
Government so formed, having no foundation in public
opinion, could have the energy to maintain itself in such a
country. But even if it were a Monarchy of a better cha-
racter, Monarchy was not the form of Government best
suited to Greece—of all others he conceived it to be the

least suited to that country. In his opinion a Federal
Republic, or at least a good representative Government o:
some sort or other, would be infinitely better suited to
the purposes of Greece. The money which this country
was about, he feared, to advance for the purpose of main-
taining Prince Otho upon the throne, would be money
completely thrown away, and all for the purpose of up-
holding the Monarchy—and such Monarchy too—Mo-
narchy in the person of a youth whose father had but
just recently taken a part in the Frankfort Confederation.
In the present state of the House he thought that coming
to such a vote would be extremely improper; and, there-
fore, he should say, let there be a call of the House, and
let the proposition the❑ before them be submitted to a
large assemblage of the representatives of the people.
Lord ALTHORP agreed with Hon. Members that the
House was not bound by the acts of the Ministry, and it
could not for a moment be supposed that his Majesty's
Government had ever acted us if they thought that the
House could be bound by their acts. He regret-
ted to observe that the question had been argued through-
out in a manner too insulated, as if tie loan, which was
only a part of an extended body of political proceedings,
formed the whole of them. It must be well known to the
House, that the interference on the part of this country in
the affairs of Greece, had its origin at a period antecedent
to the accession to office of the Duke of Wellington, and
therefore, neither his nor the present Government was an-
swerable for the consequences. It was, of course, fully
remembered that the interference commenced under the ad-
ministration of Mr. Canning; and even if that Right
Hon. Gentleman had been desirous of avoiding the inter-
ference, he might have found himself not a little embar-
rassed, for the enthusiasm which at that time prevailed
amongst the people of England was intense—an enthusiasm
of which, if he remembered rightly, the Hon. Member for
Middlesex largely partook. The Noble Lord then entered
into a statement of the parts which France and Russia took
in the transactions referred to, and then proceeded to ob-
' serve, that the people of Greece demanded from the three
Great Powers a Sovereign in whom all of them should
have confidence, and they all at length agreed in nomi-
nating Prince Otho. The Honourable Member for Mid-
dlesex hail observed, that Monarchy would be a most unfit
form of Government for Greece ; but upon what grounds
did he say so? It was admitted that Greece was in a
semi-barbarous state; and did the Hon. Member suppose
that that was the condition of society the most favourable
to the establishment of a Republic ? He thought it had
generally been held, that the highest degree of civilization
was, if not essential to the existence of a Republican form
of Government, at least the most conducive to that ob-
ject. In the present state of Greece, it would not for a
moment be denied, that some strong controlling power
was demanded ; and the idea of forming a Republic in a
country so little advanced, did, be confessed, appear to hie
mind perfectly visionary. He (Lord A.) at the time the
interference took place, was not so enthusiastic on be-
half of the Greeks as was his Honourable Friend the
Member for Middlesex. It had been observed that the
parties had done wrong in selecting so young a man
as Prince Otho—that remark proceeded upon the suppo-
sition that they were at liberty to select any one whom
they might think proper; but he begged the House to re-
member that the business of selection was no easy task,
and it was rendered doubly difficult by the fact, that it had
been agreed upon that no Prince should be selected from
the Houses of the contracting parties. Upon these grou❑ds
then he hoped that the House would confirm the treaty.
Mr. FANE approved of the arrangement, and thought
it the best that could have been adopted under the cir-
cumstances. He did not object to the payment of the
money, because this country had a direct interest in the
settlement of Greece.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when there
appeared—
For the original motion
For the Amendme❑t
Majority --43
On our re-admission we found the House in Committee,
and—

Mr. BEST objecting to proceeding further, on ac-
count of tile thinness of the House.
Lord PALMERSTON said that, on the contrary, he
thought the House fuller than it had been for some time
past, and that the thinness of the House could not be consi-
dered as a fair objection, since it was the fault of those
who absented themselves. It was alto to be remembered
that this decision was not final, and that the House would
have the opportunity of discussing the question in every
stage of the Bill.
Mr. BEST withdrew his opposition.
Mr. HUME said, he would take the first favourable op-
portunity of again dividing the House on the subject. It
seemed as though this country were acting on the prin-
ciples of the Holy Alliance.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Hon. Gentleman
appeared to think that he was imposing a Monarchical
Government on Greece contrary to the wishes of its
people. But did he not remember that three Assembliet
had been held in Greece for the purpose of considering the
form of Government which ought to be adopted, and that
he knew two of them, and, he believed all, agreed in fix-
ing upon a Constitutional Monarchy?
Mr. BERNAL then put the question, which was agreed
to ; and the report ordered to be received this day.
The Special Constables (Ireland) Bill went through a
Committe.e.—Report ordered to be received this day.
SHERIFF OF SELKIRKSHIRE.

The LORD ADVOCATE brought in a Bill to enable
his Majesty to appoint a person to act as Sheriff of Sel-
kirkshire, in place of Sir Walter Scott, who was incapa-
citated by i►►ness from the performance of its duties.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether there was any
precedent?
The LORD ADVOCATE said there was no prece-
dent, but the House was perfectly competent to pass such
a Bill.