The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-29 00:00:00

THE REFORM BILL.

Mr. GRIFFITH asked the Chancellor of the 'Exchequer
whether the plan of uniformity of franchise between coun-
ties and boroughs was considered by Government to form an
essential principle of the proposed Representation of the
People Bill, on which the fate of the bill was to depend ;
or whether, on the contrary, it was only one of those
details which, though forming part of the original
suggestions of Government, was to be considered
to be open to any alteration or omission in committee which
that house, in its wisdom, might determine upon.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER-In an-
swering the question of my hon. friend, I beg to call the
attention of the house to the extremely inconvenientmanner
in which this bill to amend the representation of the people
is debated. (Hear, hear.) It is debated, if I may use the
expression, wholesale and retail. (Cheers.) We have had it
debated in a wholesale manner for four nights, in a debate
which I think has really been sustained on both sides with
unusual interest and unfaltering power; and I shall be per-
fectly ready, when the opportunity occurs to me in the
wholesale debate, to vindicate our policy, and to explainthe
course which the Goverement have thought fit to pursue
(Hear, hear.) But I must say, in answer to the question
of my hon. friend, as I said in answer to a question from a
gentleman on the other side, that it is not within the scope
of a fair answer to a question put at this time, to enter into
this subject. (Hear.) Generally speaking, I will say that
we place before the house a measure which expresses the
policy which the Government would recommend. If there
are any gentlemen who think that on the whole the dis-
advantages counterbalance or outweigh the advantages of
the course that we recommend, it will be open to them to
vote against the bill on the second reading ; that is the
legitimate course. (Hear.) If, on the contrary, the bill
should go into committee, I shall, on the part of the Go-
vernment, listen to any proposition that may be made in
that spirit of candour which becomes me, (Hear.) And
if the decision which the house arrives at on any definite
proposition is contrary to the course which the Government
has recommended, then it will be open to us to consider the
decision at which the majority has arrived, and to act in
that manner which we think our duty dictates. (Hoar.)
Mr. WHITESIDE explained, in reference to the debate
of Tuesday night, that when Lord Palmerston said Lom-
bardy was to have been erected into a duchy dependent on
Austria, he was made by the newspapers to acquiesce in
the correctness of that statement, and to admit that he had
been in error, which he entirely denied.
THE ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. E. JAMES said he rose, shortly to offer his opinion
in support of the resolution of the noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
It was a remarkable feature in the debate on this bill that
there was not an hon. member unconnected with the Trea-
sury bench who had not condemned the bill (to use the
Chancellor of the Exchequer's phrase) wholesale and retail.
(Cheers and No, no, from the •Government side.) He
maintained that there was hardly one member unconnected
with the Treasury bench who had not found some fault with
what he consideredthe vital and substantial principles of the
bill. (Hear.) The resolution was directed against the
three main and fatal objections to the bill. It asked the house
to affirm that the enfranchisement contemplated by the bill•
was unsatisfactory and inadequate; that the disfranchise-
ment was unjust, and he thought a violation of the consti-
tutional franchises of this country ; and that the non -
extension of the franchise doomed to disappointment a
large and intelligent class of the community. How had the
resolution been met? It had not been debated merely on
its merits ; but the Solicitor-General had thought it right
to impute personal motives to the noble lord. (Hear, hoar.)
Sir E. B. Lytton had said there was a fear of Americanising
the House of Commons. It appeared to him that one of the
most fatal modes of Americanising their debates was to
introduce personal attacks such as that which had been
made against the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
James)certainly expectea when the Solicitor-General rose on
Friday, that he had done so to make some apology, or ex-
press some regret for an attack which every one who knew
the position and character of thenoble lord would feel to be
entirely unmerited. (Cheers.) If he might refer to what
had taken place out of doors he found that a letter bad been
published by a noble earl (Grey), a proceeding against
which he earnestly and sincerely protested. (Hear, hear.)
There could be no more inconvenient course upen the eve
of a great debate in that house than that a noble lord, not
reserving himself for a proper time and opportunity to ex-
press his opinion—(hear, hear)—should think it right to
address a letter to another noble lord (Lord Elcho), a mem-
ber of that house, not merely suggesting to him how to vote
but telling him that the letter might be made public, for
the purpose of inducing other members to resist the amend-
ment. (Hear, hear.) That was a practice highly incon-
venient. Had that letter been written to any voter pending
an election it would have been an infraction of the resolu-
tion of the house in 1802, which declared that no peer should
concern himself or interfere with the freedom of elections.
(No, no, from the Government side.) The noble lord, the
author of that letter, had written a pamphlet on the subject
of parliamentary government; and while in his letter he
suggested that the Government was the party to introduce
a Reform Bill, ho said in his pamphlet that the only
Government which could introduce a measure of reform
or any great constitutional measure, was a strong Go-
vernment, and not one existing merely on the sufferance
of a majority of the house. What did Lord Derby say of
the position of a Government existing upon a minority,
existing in fact from the want of cohesion among
the Liberal party? On the Bth February, 1852, he said :
"My lords, I can conceive no object of higher or nobler
ambition, none more worthy of the anxiety of a true patriot
and lover of his country, than to stand in the high and hon-
ourable position of the chief minister of the Crown and
leader of the councils of this great empire, assisted and sup-
ported by colleagues combined with him by unity of senti-
ment and mutual and personal respect, and with the know-
-edge that this and the other house of Parliament would give

to such a minister the assurance that, except on most extra-
ordinary and unusual occasions, he would be enabled with
life and energy to carry out his plans, and to mature and ac-
complish his objects, and practically as well as nominally,
control and govern the legislation and internal economy of
this groat country. On the other hand, to hold that high
and responsible situation dependent for support from day to
day upon precarious and uncertain majorities, compelled to
cut down this measure, and to pare off that—to consider with
regard to each measure not what was for the real welfare of
the country, but what would conciliate some half dozen men
here, or obviate the objections of some half-dozen there—to
regard it as a great triumph of Parliamentaryskill and minis-
terial strength to scramble through the session of Parlia-
ment, and to boast of having met with few insignificant de •
feats—l say this is a state of things which cannot be satis-
factory to any minister, and which cannot be of advantage to
the Crown, or to the people of this country. But, my lords,
to enter on the duties of office, not with a precarious majo-
rity, but with a sure minority of the other house of Parlia-
ment—to be aware that from day to day you were liable to
defeats at any moment by the combination of parties,
amounting to a sure majority, and only waiting for the
moment when it would be most convenient to introduce
motions for the attainment of such an end ; to be a minister
on sufferance ; to hold such a position without any security
for enforcing your own views ; with the fear of exposing
your own friends and the country—your friends to per-
petual mortification, and the country to constant dis-
appointment—to undertake the responsibilities and the
duties of office under such circumstances, and in such
a state of things, would be such an intolerable and gall-
ing servitude as no man of honour or character would
voluntarily expose himself to, and such as no man willingly
would submit to, except from motives of the purest patriot-
ism, and on proof of the absolute necessity of such self-
sacrifice." They had been told that onlya strong and united
Government should undertake a great measure like that.
As to the unity of sentiment, never was there anything so
prophetic as the speech of Lord Derby; it was a politi
photograph of the state of the Government now. (Hear,
cal
hear.) Mr. Henley and Mr. Walpole had left the Cabinet,
and informed the country that not till within a few days of
the production of this measure was there any unanimity
whatever in the Cabinet. (Hear, hear.) Those gentlemen had
left the Cabinet on account of its want of unanimity on
this great question ; and Mr. Henley now sat like Marius
looking down upon the ruins of the former Cabinet, and won-
dering how in their death struggle they could seek to thrust
this bill upon the house and the country. (Hear, hear.) The
speech of Lord Palmerston on Friday had surprised him.
The noble lord had stated that the Government would be de-
feated ignominiously upon this resolution, but that notwith-
standing, they must proceed with the bill ; that they had
taken the government with its "engagements," and that
unless they followed them out they would be defaulters. The
noble lord had further told the Government that they should
not dissolve Parliament, for that if they attempted to do so
they would be met constitutionally in reference to money
bills ; and he had gone on to say that they should carry the
bill, not upon any definite principle of their own, but as the
committee chose to alter it ; that it should still bear their
name and responsibility, though it might come out of the
committee utterly at variance with the bill as introduced.

(Hear, hear.) That realised the view which Lord Derby the-
dewed forth in 1855 ; for a Government must be weak indeed
which could listen to such parental advice as that. It was a
proof of their imbecility. The noble lord put them in a sort of
strait waistcoat, not allowing them to move hand or limb,
but holding them up, dependent and helpless, to the derision
of the house and the country. (Hear, hear.) It had been
argued by Mr. Wortley that the house would be guilty of
disrespect to the Crown if it voted for this resolution, because
the consideration of reform had been recommended in the
speech from the throne. But what was the difference in this
respect between voting to reject the bill, and voting against
it by means of an amendment ? (Hear.) Now, with regard
to the question of the franchise, there had been two kinds
of suffrage in this country ever since constitutional memory
could trace back—one founded on property, a territorial
franchise—the other a borough franchise, determined by
residence. The resolution of the noble lord was aimed against
that part of the bill which would destroy the residential
suffrage and substitute for it a non-residential suffrage. He
admitted that mere population should not be the basis of
representation, and that interests should be coupled with it.
But in large towns, with populations of 40,000 and 50,000,
you could not have population represented without having
the manufacturing, commercial, and other interests of these
towns represented. (Hear.) The very interests which it was
desirable to represent were created by the aggregation and
accumulation of people ; and this was the old principle of
the borough franchise, because the writs went down autho-
rising the boroughs to send members when population and
trade increased. (Hear.) But the right hon, gentleman
gave a most infelicitous illustration of an interest when he
referred to the borough of Arundel, as representing the in-
terest of 900,000 Roman Catholics in England. He regret-
ted that there were not more members of that persuasion
representing English constituencies, and that any feeling
should exist which debarred men of the highest intellect
and character from having seats in that house ; but when
the right hon. gentleman stated that 900,000 Roman Catho-
-I:cs were represented in Arundel, his illustration was not
happy, and his statement was not accurate. He had the '
greatest respect for the noble lord who now represented
Arundel, but still no one could doubt for a moment that it
was little better than a nomination borough. (Hear.) From
1826 to 1832 the 900,000 Roman Catholics were represented
by a " citizen of credit and renown," named Alderman
Atkins, a rabid Tory, who thought he would be doing
good service to tho State if he could burn all the Roman Ca-
tholics of England, and who had a solemn fear that they
would burn him. The Roman Catholics of England had
votes in other boroughs and in counties, and therefore there
was no pretence for considering them as a distinct and class
interest. (Hear.) As well might it be said that Caine re-
presented the military interest. (Hear, and laughter.) It
might just as well be said, when the gallant soldier who,
fresh from the laurels he won at Kars, had been put into
that borough by a noble marquis, that Caine represented
ihe military interest, or that it represented the literary into.
rest when Lord Macaulay sat for it, as that Arundel repre-
sented the Roman Catholic interest. (Hear, hear.) There
was another part of the bill which had been referred to by
many speakers, though merely as a matter of detail—he
alluded to the system of voting papers. He was disposed to
look upon that part of the bill as a matter of principle, and
not as a matter of detail. The voting papers wore an essen-
tial part of the scheme, if there was to be a large number of
non-resident voters. (Hear, hear.) The introduction of the
words lands or tenements in the bill was a cunning device to
extend this class of voters. (Hear, hear.) It would not be
necessary to have a house at all, for a piece of land with a
cow-house or a pig-stye would come under the denomina-
tion tenement, and he believed it had been held that a piece
of wall against which cattle rubbed themselves was a tene-
ment. (Laughter.) The voting papers were therefore an
essential part of the scheme, and the measure, instead of
being a sincere Reform Bill, was nothing but a bill of political
retaliation. (Cheers.) It gave property more power, and if
it passed, a vote factory would be immediately formed for the
manufacture of fictitious non-resident voters. He had been
twitted by the observation that the bill would give Maryle-
bone 15,000 additional voters. He admitted that, and was
thankful for it—(a laugh)—but while on the one hand it
would increase the electors in large towns, on the other
hand they still would only return two members, whilst the
increase of suffrage would be counterpoised by the introduc-
tion of non-resident and fictitious voters. (Hear, hear.) He
did not think that the right hon. and learned gentleman the
Attorney-General for Ireland could have read the whole bill
when he made his speech on Friday night, and must sup-
pose that he was occupied in framing the reform bill for Ire.
land. (Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer endeavoured to draw an analogy
between the voting papers for poor-law guardians and the
voting papers proposed by the bill, but there was no analogy
between them. The voting for guardians was carried on
locally. The voter got the paper six or seven days before
the day of voting; the police brought them to the house
with the names of the candidates written on them ; but in
an election for a member of Parliament the name of the can-
didate might not be known till the day of nomination, and
the polling commenced the second day. (Hear.) He called
on the right hon. gentleman the member for Cambridge
University to show any machinery in the bill to meet this
defect. These voting papers would become a mere machine
for fraud, bribery, and intimidation. (Hear.) Why did he
say for bribery ? For this reason—as every gentleman who
attended upon an election committee would readily under-
stand—that nothing would be easier than for a person to Fe
to the voter who received a paper, and give him £5 for it.
By this means he had the vote in his pocket. (Hear.) It
would, in fact, make the system of bribery more complete
than ever. (Hear, hear.) It would also lead to intimidation.
He would ask the house to picture the position of a voter
with one of these voting papers in his possession, and the
landlord and agent standing beside him. That this would
lead to intimidation was the opinion of the noble lord the
Secretary for India, because in 1857, on the motion of the
noble lord the member for Stamford, in favour of these vot-
ing papers, the noble lord (Stanley) said, " When I pass
from this part of the question to the danger of intimidation,
that danger would be infinitely exaggerated by carrying out
the proposition of my noble friend. What would be easier
than to send an agent of a landlord or employer to the
voter, who would insist upon his signing the voting paper in
his presence.: Even if he transmitted it through the post, it
would not prevent this intimidation." (Hear, hear.) In
the bill for the reform of the Municipal Corporation Act,
the clause relating to the voting papers was struck out with
the assent of the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary,
yet he told his constituents in Wiltshire that he regarded
them as an essential portion of this bill. (Cheers.) The fact
that a large number of the electors of Marylebone had not
recorded their votes during the recent contest was made use
of as an argument in favour of voting papers, and as a proof
of the apathy of the electors. The hon. member for Leicebt3r-
shire (Mr. Packe) referred to this fact. The hon. gentleman,
too, during the whole of his speech, called Marylebone
" Marrowbone." (Laughter.) He did not object to that,
though the other name would " sound as sweet." (Laugh-
ter) But the fact was that the industrial and trading class
of Marylebone showed no apathy during the last election.
They were not the drowsy electors of Marylebone who went
to the poll, but the industrious class and small traders. But
if retired tradesman would not go to the trouble of stepping
out of his omnibus or cab to record his vote, was it likely
he would go to the trouble of getting a voting paper,
procuring two witnesses to sign it, and then send it
through the Post-office ? (Hear, hear.) With regard to the
lessening of the franchise, scarcely a member who took part
in the debate had spoken in favour of it. The two right hon.
gentlemen who retired from the cabinet were even in favour
of an extension of the franchise. The right hon. gentleman
the Secretary for the Colonies, however, did not think the
people required it, or were fit for it, and he spoke of "im-
patient poverty, and uninstructed numbers." The righthon.
gentleman forewarned them of the dangers of democracy,
and quoted a passage from Mirabeau, which, with all respect
for the historic knowledge of the right hon. gentleman, had
very little bearing on the question. (Hear, hear.) The aris-
tocracy of France, had they remained, might have tempered
the excesses of the revolution, but who destroyed the aris-
tocracy of France ? The aristocracy themselves. (Hear,
hear.) That aristocracy had been guilty of unheard-of
excesses, and when the people rose and a mighty revolution
came upon them they fled, and left the crown unaided and
exposed to the democracy. (Hear, hear.) But there was
no parallel between the working classes of this country, po-
litically educated as they had been since 1832, and the
emancipated serfs of France. (Hear.) But these remarks
on the working classes came with a bad grace from the
right hon. gentleman. (Hear.) Had they not seen dukes,
and poets, and statesmen lecturing to the working classes on
the truths of science and the importance of cultivating their
taste and intelligence ? (Hear, hear.) Did the right hon.
gentleman suppose that when these distinguished persons
were instructing the working classes on these matterw. they
were not also teaching them their political rights? No per.
son had added such lustre to the literature of the world of

late years as the right hon. baronet himself, and a cheap
edition of his works was circulated amongst the working
classes, in which England and Englishmen were told that
the safety of the country depended on their getting their
political rights. (Cheers.) They were initiated in the mys-
teries of "Eugene Aram." (Laughter.) And after being
educated in this wayby the right hon. gentlemnn and others,
did he suppose that the " uninstructed numbers" were not
able to form an opinion what candidate they ought to vote
for at an election ? (Hear, hear.) But, said the right hon.
gentleman, who wanted reform ? Some persons whispered
to him, he said, that a moderate Reform Bill only was re-
quired. The Government kept their words to those persons,
though he could not say they had kept their word to the
country. (Hear, hear.) The country, it was said, did not
care about reform ; it was apathetic; there were no petitions.
If they had a political hurricane, as they had in 1831, it
was said, Do not give way now, the people are in too ex-
cited a state to understand the reforms they require. If, on
the other hand, they were peaceable and quiet, it was said,
Look how apathetic they are. (Hear.) He would have the
Government to be cautious that they did not mistake tran-
quillity for torpor, and patience for apathy. (Hear.) They
were differently circumstanced now from what they were in
1831. The large towns were then unrepresented. The
large towns were now represented, and their wishes were
made known through their representatives. (Hear, hear,
from the Ministerial benches.) Well, speaking through their
representatives whom they respected, they told the house
that they did want reform. (Hear, hear.) No one wanted
a wild, reckless, and sPeculative reform, but such a reform
as the two right hon. gentlemen who left the cabinet told
them might be fairly granted. (Hear, hear.) He felt in-
debted to the house for the kind attention with which his
remarks had been listened to, and he sheu'd sit down with
one more observation. (Hear, hear.) It was admitted by
the right hon. gentleman the
b Attorney-General for Ireland,
with a courage that did him honour, and speakinc, after
that ironical, withering, and satirical lecture which had
been read by the Government by the noble lord the member
for Tiverton, that the Government would not accept the
position which the noble lord wished to create for them.
(Hear. hear.) They would be pusillanimous and weak in-
deed if they did. The noble lord, the member for King's
Lynn, stated more explicitly that if the Government were
defeated, political power would change hands. (Hear,
hear, and " No, no.) Almost every speaker alluded to the
Government present one,
which was to succeed the and had
some notion what it was to be He (Mr. James) cared not
who formed the future governinent. (A laugh.) He cared
not who formed it, because he was convinced that no last-
ing government could be formed unless it was formed on a
totally different basis than the governments which preceded
it. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member for the City
bore a great name. He had never been present at a Filtrate
or a public meeting in which he allowed the noble lord's
name to be mentioned without veneration and respect. (Oh,
oh, and laughter.) But he told the noble lord that if he
was to forin a governmen to succeed the present, he must
not form it on exclusive principles. (Laughter.) To fol
low the metaphor of the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton, the noble lord must not take the family stud book and see
what whig was related to such a whig' grandmother. (Laugh-
ter.) Thep eople would have no confidence in such a govern-
ment as that. (Hear, and a laugh.) They would not be satis-
fied with a Government formed on the principle of mere kin-
dred and descent, without regard to statesmanship, powers of
debating, and habits of business. The noble lord bore agreat
name and deserved veneration and respect, but when in the
Government he sometimes kept bad company. (Laughter.)
He thought the noble lord, or whoever formed, the next Go-
vernment might imitate the right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer in this respect, for the present Go-
vernment was certainly formed on a wider basis than the
Governments which preceded it. (Hear, hear.) It was not
based on mere kindred and relationship. He sawon the row

opposite (the ministerial benches) a great many hon. gefltle.
men of the same profession as himself. (Loud laughter.) It
would be presumptuous in him to offer any advice to the
noble lord, but he might well take an example front the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, lelio had
made his way and achieved his present position through very
great difficulties, and who was not ashamed to state in that
house that of the people he was, from the people sprung, and
that he regarded lais connection with the press as his highest
escutcheon. (Cheers, and Hear, hear.) The noble lord,
therefore, must form his Government on a wider basis, and
not confine himself to a narrow, exclusive circle. (Laughter.)
Whigs I pure Whigs I (Laughter.) 'Your pure Whigs, like
bustards in Norfolk, were a species of bird that was fast dying
out. (Laughter.) There were gentlemen sitting around him
(laughter) who represented great constituencies
(laughter)and who were hardly ever consulted on political
matters. They were never called on till the flagellation before
a division. If the noble lord would only rely on the people as
he had done, the people, who were always generous, would
place confidence in him. (Hear.) Let him place confidence
in the people, and he might treat with contempt whatever
accusations were brought against him, like those of the right
hon. gentleman the member for Stroud. He might then
rise superior to the petty intrigues of faction and the paltry
cabals of party, but without that the noble lord would never
regain the confidence which her Majesty's present Govern-
ment had forfeited, or stand for an hour at the helm which
they were now compelled to abandon. (Cheers.)
Mr. BEAUMONT said that he had had a seat for seven
years in the house,, and had never until this debate found
himself in opposition to the noble lord the member for l' har*
ton. It was his intention on this occasion to go into the
lobby with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.)
The feeling of the people out of doors on this question had
been alluded to; but he contended that if the Secretary for
the Colonies or the Prime Minister, or any others of equal
eloquence, had convened meetings like the hon. member
for Birmingham, they would have secured audiences quite
as large. (Hear.) This resolution was an ingenious and
well- worded trap—(hear, hear)—leaving altogether un-
touched the merits of the question. (Hear, hear.) lie
thought the measure a boon, inasmuch as it carried out the
views of the hon. member for Surrey with respect to the
county franchise. The objection to uniformity of franchise
he feared, was rather an after-thought—(hear, hoar)—but
he confessed himself opposed to the disfranchisement of the
40s. freeholders, and the proposal of an option in voting in
counties or boroughs he held to be bad. He considered
that the principle of voting-papers could be applied to non-
resident voters ; but he retained his hostility to the adop-
tion of the ballot. But he thought, generally, that it was
quite out of the question to attempt to discuss a measure of
reform on a resolution like this. (Hear, hear.) For these
reasons he could not vote for the resolution, and he would
give his support to the Government. (Ministerial cheers.)
Lord ELCHO said that on so momentous a question be
would not have risen to address the house had he not bean
so pointedly alluded to by the hon. and learned member for
Marylebone, the future Solicitor-General—(a laugh)—who
adverted to a letter which a noble earl had done him the
honour to address to him. He did not rise to defend that
noble earl, who needed none of his defence, and who, with
a name so illustrious in our political history, was entitled
to be heard on a question like this. Surely it was not to be
said that an English peer was the only person who was not
on such an occasion to be suffered to express an opinion.
Why, it was only the other day that a member of the
house, the member for Edinburgh (Mr. A. Black), wrote
a letter to the Times newspaper on a question upon
which he was to have an opportunity of addressing the
house. For his own part, he agreed with some hon. gen-
tlemen opposite that it was an error for a Conservative
Government to have brought in a Reform Bill. They
should not have accepted the Government with any such
engagement ; and he (Lord Eleho), if it had been left to
his option, would rather have paid the forfeit. Indeed, it
showed a poor knowledge of human nature to undertake
the task, since they must have known, as sure as they laid
the bill on the table, that the Liberals would throw it out.
Notwithstanding what had been said by the hon. member
for Birmingham, that no one dare stand forward and raise
his voice against reform, he had no hesitation in saying
that if reform meant organic change, or radical change, he
saw no necessity for that change. To justify it, either the
legislative machine worked ill, or the unenfranehised were
so resolved on having the franchise, that it would be dan-
gerous to resist. "Was it so ? The noble lord the member
for London, when he resisted, in 1848, Mr. Hume's mo-
tion, then called the little charter, said he would let well
alone. He (Lord Elcho) agreed with that, And thought it
unwise to pull a good machine to pieces, lest it might not
be possible to reconstruct it. He warned them by the
words of the old epitaph, which was quoted the other day
in a pamphlet :—" I was well, wished to be better, and here
I am." In place of the desire said to exist for the fran-
chise, he reminded the house that in 1854 the noble lord
the member for London withdrew his Reform Bill because
there was little feeling in favour of it. The same infer-
ence he drew froM what was said by the hon. member for
Birmingham satirically of the Bank and the Museum in
April, 1848; for the people then showed in a time of
danger that they were an industrious and peaceful people,
and not discontented with their lot. He could speak from
experience, having been a special constable on the ooca-
sion ; for there he saw lords and dukes, and middle-
class men and artisans, combined for the preservation
of the peace. If the honourable member for Birming-
ham were in his place he would ask whether he •
was satisfied with his winter campaign. He under-
stood that it was quitethe contrary, and that the hon. mem-
ber had been heard to say that he had been flogging a dead
horse. He thought they ought to be very careful not to
lower the character of that house, or to reduce it to the
state of the vestry of St. Pancras. It war an assembly of
free English gentlemen, and he hoped that it would always
continue so, and that every member of it might be proud of
belonging to such an assembly. The present bill had been
objected to on the principle of uniformity contained in it.
The question of uniformity of franchise was just one of
those which might be discussed in committee. The bill
being one for the amendment of the representation of
the people, was, he believed, based on the principle
that representation should rest not on population alone
—not on property alone—but on interests. There were
many excellent points in the bill to which he should
be ready to give his assent. The noble lord had him-
self admitted on Friday that there were many excel-
lent points in the bill, and had disapproved of no part of
it except the uniformity of the franchise, which he thought
ought not in counties to be so low as £lO. It was said that
the bill would not effect a settlement of the question. He
should like the noble lord to say what would settle the ques-
tion. Did the bill of 1832, of which the noble lord was the
author—liberal as that bill was--settle the question ? There

had been no fewer than 35 motions in thai house for a re-
form of the constitution since 1832. In the very next year
after the passing of the Reform Bill there was a motion made
in that house for the ballot, and another for shortening the
duration of Parliaments. In 1837 no fewer than seven
motions were made on the subject. Inflict, whatever measure
might be carried, there would always be persons calling
themselves advanced Liberals—men who were in favour of
progress—of progress they knew not what—who would ad-
vocate further change. On the subject of a dissolution he
could add nothing to what had been said by the right
hon. member for Cambridge University, and by the
right hon. member for Bute. A dissolution could not
be too strongly deprecated ; and if the Government decided
on that step he knew not what power the house possessed to
check them, but for himself he should be ready to support
an address to her Majesty, praying her Majesty not to dis-
solve Parliament. (Hear, hear.) The other alternative—re -
signation—implied the formation of a new Government.
What would be the nature of it ? Was it to be presided
over by the noble lord the member for Tiverton ? (Hear.)
He had listened to the speech of the noble lord. He had
always had the utmost confidence in the integrity and .
ability of the noble lord. He believed that the noble lord
would act consistently in the spirit of his speech in any
reform he might propose, and that the details of the bill
would be such as lie had foreshadowed to the house. He
was confident the speech of the noble lord the member for
Tiverton fell like a shell on the benches of the Opposition
—(hear, hear)—and that there had been no such astonish-
ment like it since Balaam stood up in high places, and
ended by blessing his enemies instead of cursing them.
(Cheers.) The construction of a new Government might,
however, fall to the lot of the noble lord the member for the
City of London ; and he hoped that noble lord would not
take it as anything personal to himself if he (Lord Elcho)
declined to express the confidence in him u hich he was
ready to extend to his noble friend (Lord Palmerston).
He knew not whether the noble lord would be disposed to
place the honourable member for Birmingham in his
Cabinet, or appoint the honourable member for Finsbury
(Mr. Cox) his vice-president of education, or whether, he
would have the right hon. gentleman the member for Wells
(Mr. Harter) and the hon. member for Walsall (Mr. For-
ster) as his colleagues; but he (Lord Riche) should look
upon a Reform Bill introduced by such a Government as
laying the foundation of democracy in the British Senate.
(Cheers.) He hoped, therefore, that all who had the
interest of the British constitution at heart would join
together for the purpose of rejecting the resolution of the
noble lord, which, as had been well said, unsettled every-
thing and settled nothing. (Ministerial cheers.) But
if hon. gentlemen, even on such an occasion as. this,
when the interests of England and the political inheritance
of their children were at stake, could not lay aside party
feeling, he would ask them to listen to the words which
had been addressed to them last year by the hon. member
for Birmingham. The hon. gentleman one evening made a
short speech, in which, after stating that every man who
went to our colonies repudiated our policy and our debt,
and thanked Heaven that he had at last found a country
where his industry wasunfettered, went on to say that, how-
ever many of our county en emigrated, the landed pro-
prietors of England must still remember that their acres re-
mained, and that by-and-by they would have a different
tone assumed in the House of Commons after another reform
in Parliament; that their succession duties would be over-
hauled, and it would not be got rid of so easily as at pre-
sent ; their property tax would come back in increased pro-
portion, and they might rely upon it that the course they
had pursued for some years had been foolish and wicked.
By casting unfair burdens on the people they would create
a spirit of discontent and disaffection, and when the people
once had the power, which they would shortly have, to lay
taxes on those who had the money, they might depend on
it the poor would not always go to the wall, and the rich
al „wisescape. He (the noble lord) was not about to
a n'ss;cer this, although it easily admitted of one, for legisla-
tion had of late years been especially directed for the benefit
of the poorer classes. (Cheers.) What he would say was,
that the house ought to take warning by the words of the
hon. member for Birmingham, who spoke openly then, but
he very much doubted whether the hon. gentleman spoke
in the same open manner in the speech he made the other
evening. (Cheers.) He was not in the house upon that
occasion, but he had asked an hon. member what sort of $
speech it was, and the description given was this, "It was
milk and water, prepared to order." (Laughter.) He asked
the hon. gentlemen opposite to pause before they played -a
game which might lead to a coalition between the noble lord
(Lord J. Russell) and the hon. member for Birmingham.
(Hear.) He called upon them, while there was time, to resist
this tide of democracy which was setting in, and to hand
down that noble constitution which they had received from
their ancestors, of which they had only a life interest, and
of which Mr. Fox had wisely said, " combintd all the
efficiency of a monarchy with the liberty of a republic,
without the despotism of the one or the licentiousness of
the other." (Cheers.)

Mr. E. ELLICE said that he quite acquitted the Govern..
ment of any want of consistency in bringing in a Reform
Bill, however unfortunate it might be that a question of this
magnitude should fall into the hands of a Ministry repre-
senting a minority in that house. The question of reform
had been recommended to the Crown, and brought before
the house in 1852 and 1854. His noble friend at the head of
the late Government had also produced a measure on the
subject ; and he was therefore not surprised when the noble
lord at the head of the present Government told the public
he would do his best to- settle the question. (Hear, hear.)
He agreed with his noble friend who had just sat down
on one point, namely—that it was better, if they could agree
upon a certain principle of reform., to proceed gradually with
that work. (Hear, hear.) He did not think that great
organic changes in the constitution of that house were to be