The Sun.
London, England, 1835-03-14 00:00:00

THE ESTIMATES.

Mr. P. THOMSON said he was anxious to know whether
the Right Hon. Bart. intended proceeding with the estimates
this evening, or whether he was inclined to postpone them until
after April 2 ; and he hoped by that time the House and the
country would be put in pcssession of those reforms, both as
respected the Church, and this particular inquiry, which were
so anxiously looked for.
Sir R. PEEL said, that in consequence of the termination
the financial year having been fixed in future for the Ist of
April, he should endeavour to bring forward his financial
statement as early as possible after that date as was consistent
with that accuracy and satisfactoriness of detail without which
it appeared to him such statements were of very little use.
His observation of the last two or three years' proceedings,
had convinced him that the slight delay of two or three weeks
was an unimportant consideration, if it enabled the Minister to
bring forward a more complete and accurate statement. He
repeated that he hoped to be prepared with all the informa-
tion the subject embraced by a very early day after the Ist of
April, after. which he proposed to move the House into Com-
mittee of Supply on each Monday and Friday, till the whole
had been gone through.
AMBASSADOR AT CONSTANTINOPLE.
Mr. HUME inquired whether it was true that his Majesty's
Government, or rather the late Government, had ordered a
palace to be built for the English Ambassador at Con-
stantinople ?
Sir. R. PEEL said that as the Hon. Member's inquiry re-
ferred to an act of another Government, he had rather not
make any reply until he was enabled to do so with perfect ac-
curacy.—( Hear, hear.)
IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS.

Mr. HUME then asked when the report of the Com-
missioners on Irish Municipal Corporations might be ex-
pected.
Mr. BL ACKBURN had reason to believe that the report
was in a very forward state.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that he intended asking a
question on Monday next respecting some transactions in which
the Orange party were concei ned at a place, the name of which
we did not hear, in Ireland.
AMBASSADOR TO ST. PETERSBURGH—AF-
FAIRS OF THE EAST.

On the motion that the Speaker leave the Chair, for the
House to go into Committee on the Navy Estimates,
Mr. SHE IL rose to move as an amendment, that there be
laid before the House a copy of any appointment made within
the last four months of an Ambassador from the Court of
London to St. Petersburgh, and of the salary and emoluments
attached to such Embassy. It was obvious that our political
relations with Turkey mainly depended upon the nature and
efficiency of our diplomatic relations with the Court of St. Pe-
tersburg-h. The illustrious Duke now at,the head of the Foreign
Department was fully aware of the importance of this subject,
when in 1826,notwithstanding the inclemency of the weather, he
thought it necessary to send a special mission to the Russian
Court relative to the affairs of Turkey. The Hon. and Learned
Member then briefly adverted to the history of the Ottoman em-
pire during the past four years, from the time of the battle of
Navarino, down to the signing of the treaty at Adrianople,
by which the Turkish Emperor was prostrated before the nod
of Russia. It was a treaty of offensive and defensive alliance,
and of such a binding nature, that if Russia were to go to
war with England, Turkey must necessary do so also, and the
Dardanelles would be blockaded against our ships. He could
not help thinking it was unfortunate that the Duke of Welling-
ton had refused to assist the Turkish Sultan at the time he
applied for means to this Court, and thus his impending doom
been arrested. There was at the present moment a large
Russian army waiting on the frontiers of Turkey, and only
waiting for a favourable opportunity to enter upon them.
Under these critical circumstances, it became a consideration
of great importance, who was the individual by whom this
country was represented at the Court of St. Petersburgh.
In 1832 Sir Stratford Canning was appointed to that
mission, but owing to his appointment not meeting with
the approbation of the Russian Autocrat, Sir Stratford did
not proceed there. Whoever was now appointed to the va-
cant post, should be a person of extraordinary qualifications.
He should be firm, sagacious, and discreet ; devoted to the
principles entertained by the majority of the people of the
country, and capable of vindicating them against the perni-
cious principles which swa2-ed the Russian Court. Finally, he
should represent in his own person the honour and dignity
of his country. Whether such an appointment had been
made or not in the present case, it remained with his Majesty's
Government to inform the public. He had heard the name of
a Noble Individual who it was rumoured had been appointed
to this post. The first he had heard of it was from the Times
of Jan. 2d, where he read the following paragraph :—" We
notice, merely to discountenance an absurd report that Lord
Londonderry has been, or is to be, named Ambassador to St.
Petersburgh. The rumour is a sorry joke." The next he
had read of it was in the Courier, which copied the above pa-
ragraph, and added that they had ascertained the rumour to
be true, and then entered upon remarks which might be ap-
propriate, coming from an editor of a newspaper, but which
he (Mr. Shell) would not repeat. But it was not by
the opinions of newspaper writers that he wished to con-
sider the qualifications of the Noble Lord ; but from
the deliberate opinion expressed by the House of Lords-.
The Hon. Member read, in a low and rapid tone, a passage
from a speech of the Marquis of Londonderry in the House
of Lords in June 27, on a motion of his respecting the pen-
sion of Ambassadors, in which the Noble Lord maintained
that from his services he was entitled to a pension ; that from
the return laid before the House he was an injured man in
not being included in the return for the allowance to Foreign
Ministers, which was 27,000/. In that speech his Lordship
said that the Secretary of State had brought false charges
against him. He had a correspondence with the-Noble Lord
opposite the Foreign Secretary ( Lord Dudley and Ward).
To that correspondence he would appeal, and by that he would
be judged. In answer to that appeal Lord Dudley said
that the Noble Marquis declared be was an injured man ;
that he was entitled from his long and arduous sorvices to a
retiring allowance. Into the particulars of the transaction he
would not then enter, but would remind the House that the
subject had been originally referred to Lord Liverpool, and
that in Lord Liverpool's hand-writing there was this comment
on the Noble Marquis's application, " This is too bad."—
( Cheers from the Opposition.) After that condemnation of
the claims of the Noble Marquis to compensation, and, by im-
plication, the condemnation of his fitness to discharge the high
and complicated duties of the Representative of the interests
of Great Britain at a foreign Court, was not the present ap-
pointment too bad?--( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
Lord Dudley, in reply to the Noble Marquis, went farther,
and showed that the Noble Marquis was ten years in office,
and during that time received 160,000/. of the public money.
After that fact the Noble Marquis had the boldness to say that
he would stand or fall by his right to a retiring pension. He
(Mr. Sheil) stated facts which were notorious. They were
registered on the records of Parliament ; they were matters of
history. Upon such transactions it was idle to descant. Com-
ment was unnecessary, for it would only weaken the force of
stubborn, convincing, and unanswerable facts.—( Hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) He (Mr. Shed) would say he was fully
conscious of the services of the Noble Marquis. He was a
fierce debater, and a violent partisan. He might be qualified
as an orator at Hillsborough, in Downshire, but he was not fit
to execute the high trust of an Ambassador from free and en-
lightened England to the despotic and wily Court of Russia.
—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) The Hon. Member
then put his motion.
Mr. C. FERGUSON next addressed the House. He did
not wish to raise any objection to the appointment of the Noble
Marquis on the ground of personal character ; but he objected
to his appointment on public, on national grounds. He ob-
jected to him on principle. The opinions which the Noble
Lord expressed of the relative rights of Russia and Poland, on
which the anxiety of this country had been so eagerly fixed,
ought alone to have presented any Minister from appointing
him to the important post of Russian Minister. There were
motions made in that House, and opinions expressed ,there.
which were the echo of the voice of the country, with respect
to the condition of Poland, and the rights to which she was
entitled; by the faith of treaties and the law of nations. These
opinions went to embody the national conviction that Poland
was entitled to freedom, that any invasion on that freedom was
an invasion on established treaties, on the right of nations,
and on the first principles of justice. Poland had not for-

feited any one right as a nation, by her annexation to the
Crown of Russia; on the contrary, she had her independence
guaranteed by the treaty of Vienna, which made the Russian
Autocrat her sovereign. By that treaty she got a free consti-
tution, which the monarch had sworn to uphold and defend.
(Hear, hear.)—He hoped the attention of the present Go-
vernment would be directed to the treatment that gallant and
unhappy nation had endured. He (Mr. Ferguson) brought
three motions before the House on the subject. The object of
one was that this country would never submit to a violation of
the treaty of Vienna, and that the Poles did no one act
which would entitle them to the horrors they were subjected
to, and to the last calamity—slavery.—( Hear, hear.) He
thought it fit for the Government to choose as the Ambassa-
dor to Russia a person who was not objectionable by the de-
claration of his public opinions respecting Poland. In August
last the Noble Lord said, in reference to our interference with

the affairs of Belgium, if England intended to adopt a separate
line of conduct from the other States of, Europe in relation to

Belgium, she would be entitled to adopt a similar line as to
the rebellious subjects of Poland.—(Cheers.) The Poles
were as much entitled to an independent sovereignty as any
other nation in Europe; as much so as Prussia ; and the se-
lection of an Ambassador to Russia should have for its main

object to secure her nationality to Poland, and restore to her
her independent Constitution.—( Hear, hear, from the Oppo-
sition.) If ever there was justifiable resistance on the part of
a nation it was that of Poland. When he brought forward

his motion last Session with respect to Poland, he heard it
said on the Opposition side that the time was gone by when
they could interfere in the affairs of Poland. On that oc-
casion the Foreign Secretary (Lord Palmerston) said he
could not object to the spirit of the motion—that the
conduct of the Poles in resisting the encroachments of
Russia was not rebellious.— ( Cheers from the Opposition.)
It was like the conduct of France. The Noble Lord did
not oppose his motion, and further used the remarkable ex-
pression, that England already did what the motion pro-
posed—that she remonstrated strongly against the fate to
which the Poles were subjected.—( Hear, hear.) After that
declaration from the late Government, could the present Go-
vernment with any show of fairness or of regard to the opinions
of the House and the country venture to confirm such a nomi-
nation ? The Noble Marquis had asserted in his place in Par-
liament last session that our interference on behalf of Poland
was unjustifiable, and that the conduct of the then Government
was calculated to alienate Russia from that good understand-

ing with England which it was desirable should exist between
the two countries.—( Hear, hear from the Opposition.) He
(Mr. Ferguson) never heard that England aid too much; on
the contrary, he heard and felt that England, and
France too, which had an especial interest in defending
the principle on which the Poles grounded their resistance to
despotism, had done little. When the Noble Marquis used
language like that to which he referred, was he a fit person to
be sent to St. Petersburgh ? He trusted it was not yet too
late to check this mischievous and ill-judged mission.
Lord MAHON said, when the question of the affairs
of Turkey came before the House, he would be enabled
to afford an explanation which he thought would be acceptable
to the House. The subject was, he would affirm, introduced
in order to make an attack on Lord Londonderry. (No, from
the Opposition.) He would affirm that the speech of the Hon.
and Learned Member ( Mr. Shell) was delivered with that
view.—( Cheers from the Ministerial side.) The lion. and
Learned Member passed over the affairs of Turkey in a cursory
and unsatisfactory way. In place of entering into a long and
statesmanlike view of our entire relations with the empire, he
took a few isolated facts, and fastened on some dates ; and
this garbled mode of dealing with the question he fancied
would be taken as a condemnation of the foreign policy of
the present Government.—( Cheers from the Ministerial
side.) In place of hearing facts that would tend to con-
demn the present Government, he only heard of a renewal of
the stale story of the opinion of Lord Liverpool, and a re-
ference to a debate many years ago in the House of Lords.
—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Supposing that Lord Liver-
pool did use the words attributed to him, could that circum-
stance be held as evidence damnatory of the conduct of Lord
Londonderry ?—( Hear, hear.) Lord Liverpool's opinion
was but the opinion of an individual; and ought that to be
considered sufficient evidence of the capabilities of a man who
had so long discharged high and important duties to the State ?
The disclosure of that opinion was a breach of confidence.
Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman know how that disclo-
sure was made ? Did he know, in reality, that the opinion
was really expressed, or that it was intended for publicity ? If
the person who made that disclosure were found out, he would
have been expelled from office.—( Laughter on the Opposition
side, and some interruption.) The Noble Marquis, it was
true, did bring in a motion in the Lords under which he
claimed a pension ; to that pension he thought he was fully
entitled, and, when he was entitled to it, what just or reason-
able objection could there be to his claiming it? Since the
Noble Marquis was engaged as a public functionary there was
no doubt a change in public opinion ; but surely that change
should not affect him. That House should not pass an ex post
facto judgment against him ; it was neither a judicious nor an
honest mode of proceeding.—( Cheers from the Ministerial
side.) If the services of an individual were calculated to pro-
mote the public interest, if they were acceptable to a Court
with whom we had close and extensive relations, it was desir-
able that the appointment should be made. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Tipperary's views in bringing forward his motion were
personal and factious.—( No, no, and laughter from the Op-
position side.) He ( Lord Mahon) maintained they were no
other. The Hon. Member (Mr. Ferguson) said, in reference
to the case of Poland, that the time for our interference with
that country had passed.
Mr. FERGUSON denied having said so.
Lord MAHON thought he said so. Well, it was of little
consequence to the point at issue, which was the fitness of Lord
Londonderry for the mission about to be entrusted to him.
Even were the political opinions of an individual objectionable
to the general feeling of the country, yet if he possessed other
qualities to suit him for the mission, he should be appointed.
( Hear, hear.) He was convinced there was not a single man
in the country more able or more zealous to serve its interests
in Russia than Lord Londonderry. For the mission to Russia,
he was peculiarly fitted, considering his former connexions
and influence with the rulers of that empire. If Hon. Gentle-
men were acquainted with the difficulties of the case, if they
were aware of the feelings of the Russian Court, they would
suspend their opinions.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME asked if the appointment were already con-
firmed ?
Lord MA HON said it was not formally, though it was
virtually.
Mr. HUME should consult the public revenue, which he
was always anxious to see economically expended, by oppo-
sing the nomination.—(Laughter from the Ministerial side.)
The appointment showed the wisdom and prudence of the
present Administration. What could the country expect
from the Government after such an appointment? Judging
from the amount of salary attached to this embassy, he could
only look on it as a piece of Ministerial favour. There were
only two appointments to foreign Courts which were worth
10,0001. each a year; that to Russia was one, with an addi-
tional 1,0001. for house-rent, and 3,0001. or 4,000/. for other
expenses. This appointment was a good sample of the ex-
travagance of our foreign department. For many years the
diplomatic branches cost from 400,0001. to 500,0001. a year.
A considerable reduction was afterwards made, and only
two embassies were allowed 10,000/. a year each. Were the
services of the Noble Marquis, he would ask, worth 15,0001.
a year? It was an outrage on public economy to grant him
that sum. If he went he might soon return with a claim to
that pension which he sought before, and who could tell that
the appointment was not made in order to entitle him to a
pension ? England ought to send to Russia a person of li-
beral principles, who would uphold free institutions, who
would carry to that Court the hopes of his country, that he
would represent its feelings, wishes, and interests. The
speeches and principles of the Noble Lord were opposed to
everything liberal and tolerant. What could England or
Europe expect when such a man was appointed under such
circumstances—when a man was sent to Russia as the Repre-
sentative of Great Britain who had ever been loudest in his
opposition to liberty, and had supported every measure that
made the heart of England wring with anguish and vexation?
—( Hear, hear.) But let him be sent, and the time might soon
come when that House would withhold the money for paying
him. ( Hear, and laughter from both sides of the House.)
Yes, withhold it ; and the people would be glad if it were
withheld from his Majesty's Ministers to support Lord Lon-
donderry, for there was no man more objectionable than his
Lordship.
Lord STANLEY and several Members rose at the same
time, but there were loud cries for his Lordship, and the
other Members gave way. His Lordship then proceeded :
From the answer of his Noble Friend the Under Secretary
for Foreign Affairs, that the appointment had not formally
taken place, the motion must necessarily fall to the ground.
But he (Lord Stanley) hoped the effect of the discussion that
night, and the effect of the feeling of the people of England,
so far as that feeling could be heard in that House through
the declared opinion of their representatives, would have the
influence they ought to have on the completion of an appoiut-
ment which it was evident was not acceptable to the people
or the House of Commons.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition. )
He did not look to the peculiar appointment—he did not ob-
ject to Lord Londonderry because he would receive a certain
salary—he did not consider the question in that narrow and
penurious light, and be should fairly state that he never heard
the tone of a discusaion so lowered, or a line of objection so
narrow and unworthy of the high attitude that should be taken
by a statesman, as he had that night in the speech of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex.—(Loud cheers.) He did not think
this question was a sordid question of money ; he thought it
one of high principle, and his objection to the appointment was
the same as that of the Hon. Member (Mr. Ferguson. )
( Cheers.) He was a member of the Administration that felt
it necessary to perform a most painful duty, to resist the propo-
sition of the active interposition of this country on behalf of
the Poles. lie felt for their sufferings, and was most anxious
to relieve them ; and he, in common with that Government,
deemed it necessary to use every means to soften the evils
which they could riot prevent.--( Hear, hear, hear.) Every
man must see that the appointment of the Noble Marquis—
an appointment that was talked of, and he hoped only talked
of—(Loud cheers from the opposition)—was unpalatable
to the House and the country. If it were necessary for this
country to take high grounds—if it were necessary to prevent
injurious interposition on the part of a foreign and aspiring
Power—if it were necessary that the exertions of an Ambas-
sador should be directed to the ends of upholding the inte-
rest and dignity of this country—then should there be ap-
pointed a man who would really represent the feelings of the
Sovereign and the people.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Lord Lon-
donderry was not that man • he was the last man to represent
either. The Noble Lord below him (Lord Mahon) said the
comment of Lord Liverpool on the conduct and claims of the
Noble Marquis was a by-gone transaction, a stale story, which
ought riot to be reverted to. But that comment was the ex-
press opinion of 'a Prirue.Minister who bad good grounds for

forming; a sounri opinion of his pretension; ; it was the last re-
cord they had of his conduct.L-(Loud cheering.) But
if they were not to look so far back were they to take as no-
thing the avowed opinions of the Noble Marquis in his place in
Parliament ? The Noble Lord might say that the Noble Mar-
quis would go out with instructions to this effect and to that
effect ; hut did the Government believe that any instructions
they could give would counteract the known opinions of their
Ambassador ?—( Hear.) Did they believe—could they believe
—that the influence of the Noble Marquis would be exerted at
the Russian Court in the direction that the opinions of his

country and the professed opinions of the Government to
which he belongs pointed; or t ,at he would not use his autho-
rity for the purpose of encouraging severity—he would not say
active severity—and for the purpose of encourag:s4 the feelings
he entertained against the Poles ? Did they believe he would
give to the Russian Court the impress of his own feelings, or
the impress of the feelings of his country at large ? He had no
intention of addressing the House upon the present motion,
but finding that the appointment of the Noble Marquis had
not as yet taken place, and that there was yet time to make.
known to the Government the feeling of that House and
of the country upon the subject, he could not help express-
ing his humble but earnest hope that the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet at the head of the Government, whom he begged to
remind (although satisfied that it. was unnecessary) that the
whole responsibility of the appointment would rest with him,
would yet pause before he gave the sanction of his name to
an appointment which he was inclined to believe was fo-
reign to his own inclinations, and which he must add was
at direct variance with every principle of liberal policy to which
the Government had upon taking office pledged itself.—
( Loud cheers.)
Mr. OTWA Y CAVE expressed his hope that all idea of
the appointment of the Noble Marquis would, in consequence
of the expressions of opinion just made, be abandoned. It

could never give satisfaction in any quarter.
Mr. C. PEI, HAM trusted the Government would not be
led away from their intention of appointing the Noble Marquis
by the speeches they had that night heard.
Mr. ORD thought that upon this the first act of foreign
policy of the Government to which he belonged, the House
were entitled to the benefit of hearing the Right Honourable
Baronet, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The appoint-
ment of Lord Londonderry as Ambassador to the Russian
Court was quite of a piece with their appointments in Ireland.
They evidently wished to prove, as well to the Emperor of
Russia as to the Orangemen of Ireland, that they did not in-
tend to act up to the professions they were obliged to make
when entering office.—( Hear.)
Mr. GISBORNE asked if the Noble Lord's (Mahon)
speech was the only defence the Government could make for
the appointment, and what was the amount of that speech?
It was compressed in a few words. "In the name of Europe
behold the man."—( Hear, and laughter.) He had heard it
said that the appointment was a most unnatural one—it ap-
peared to him a most natural one.—( Hear.) It was in com-
plete accordance with the principle on which the Government
took office. Sure he was that if those men who opposed
Reform in all its stages were the most fitting persons to work
out its results, the Noble Marquis, who was so pleased
with the conduct of Russia to Poland, and who had de-
nounced the Poles as rebels, was the most proper person
to represent to the Russian Government how deeply
the British nation sympathised in the sufferings those Poles
had been made to endure.—( Hear.) But why had not
the Noble Marquis commenced his journey ? It was now two
months since his appointment was announced. Oh," it was
said, "the season is not now propitious." Now he chanced
to remember that some years ago a certain Ambassador on his
way to Constantinople thought proper to delay so long at
Naples, that an inquiry as to the cause of his sojourn there
was made in that House ? It was answered that the seas were
not sufficiently propitious for the voyage, upon which a certain
person, who should be nameless most felicitously displayed
his classical acquirements by quoting the passage—
" Otium Dives rogat in patenti
Prensus Ego simul atra nubes
Condidit Lunam, neque certa fulgent
Sidera nautis."
He could not give the quotation the effect the Right Hon.
Baronet did on the occasion to which he alluded ; but still it
was not altogether inapplicable to the case of the Noble Mar-
quis. But was not the Russian Government one of sufficient
importance to justify the expense of a land journey for the
British Ambassador ?—( A laugh.) Seriously speaking, how-
ever, he trusted the Noble Marquis would never be put to the
trouble of the journey. The House, in his opinion, was
bound in some way or other to approach his Majesty, and ex-
press to him the feeling of the country upon the appointment
he wai understood to have sanctioned.—( Hear.)
Sir R. F E EL—Sir, I was certainly not aware that to the
other charges I am liable, could with any degree of justice be
added that of an unwillingness to take a fair share in the dis-
cussions of this House ; and I confess it was with no small de-
gree of surprise I heard the Hon. Member who spoke last but
one in this debate attribute it to me. While, however, I quite
admit the right of that Hon. Member—or any other who may
coincide with him in thinking I am called upon to defend my
conduct with reference to the appointment in question—to
comment upon my silence, I must claim from him in return
the right of postponing that defence until such time as may
appear to my own mind most suited for the purpose.—( Hear.)
But, Sir, even if I were not to avail myself of that prero-
gative, I think it will not, upon consideration, appear unrea-
sonable that I should have, at all events up to the present
moment, refrained from presenting thyself to their atten-
tion. I think when lam told from so many quarters that
be the result of Lord Londonderry's appointment what it may,
the main responsibility. must at all events rest on me—when I
am in general terms informed that the Government to which
I belong will forfeit the confidence of those over whose inte-
rests they are selected to preside, by selecting for the situa-
tion of Ambassador to the Court of Russia an individual whose
conduct disentitled him to that honour, it was but natural I
should wish to hear what were the specific charges which could
be adduced against that Noble Lord, or against myself, before
I took an opportunity of making a reply in his or my own de-
fence, the more especially when it was quite clear that in
compliance with the forms of the House I could only address
myself to it once.—( Hear.) Sir, upon the question of re-
sponsibility I have but little to say. I trust I never have, I
am certain I never shall shrink from any responsibility which
properly could be said to belong to me, or try to transfer to
another the responsibility that ought to attach to myself
(Loud cheers.) I admit, Sir, distinctly admit, that for what-
ever may be done in any department of the State practically,
though perhaps not constitutionally, I, who have the honour to
fill the first post in his Majesty's Government, ought to be, and
will, while .I retain that situation, consider myself altogether
responsible to my Sovereign and to my country.—( Cheers.)
Sir, I do not hesitate here, in my place in Parliament, to de-
clare that for every step taken in this appointment there is no
individual belonging to the Cabinet who has contracted greater
responsibility than myself, and whatever may be the course the
House may think fit to take in consequence of that appoint-
ment, it shall never find me either anxious or desirous to shrink
from the declaration I now make.—( Cheers.) That the ap-
pointment of Lord Londonderry to the post of Ambassador to
the Court of Russia, or to any other office, however insig-
nificant, under the present Administration has failed in giving
satisfaction to certain Honourable Gentlemen opposite, I do
not—l cannot doubt. Is it not perfectly notorious that there
is no one appointment connected with the present Government
which gives them the slightest satisfaction ?—( Hear, and a
laugh.) Nor is it very wonderful that such should be the case.
Don't I know—don't we all know—that in proportion as men
take an active part in politics, and in proportion as they desire
to see the party they espouse gain the ascendancy in the State,
in exactly the same proportion will the appointments of a Go-
vernment, maintaining principles in direct opposition to those
they profess, be at all times, and especially at the moment
they have ceased to hold power, unsatisfactory to their feelings,
and eonsequently the objects of condemnation in their
speeches ?—( Loud cheers.) Was their dissatisfaction ex-
pressed at Lord Londonderry's appointment alone ?—( Hear,
hear, from the Opposition.) Why, not one single individual
composing the Government was acceptable to them—not one
single appointment the Government made appeared to give
them satisfaction. Even their old friends and allies—even
those whose co-operation and assistance they courted when
themselves in office—have now become the objects of their
attack and condemnation.—(Hear, hear.) Is not the Attor-
ney-General for Ireland under the late Administration, the
Attorney-General for Ireland under the present Government?
And yet are we not reproached with even that appointment?
—( Hear, hear.) Is not my Right Hon. Friend the Paymaster
of the Forces denounced by Hon. Members on the other side
as unworthy of the trust reposed in him ?—( Hear, hear, from
the Opposition.) Did not the Noble Lord, the leader of the
Opposition, contrary I must say to his usual practice, and con-
trary I must also say to what prudence ought to have dictated
to him above all others, rake up the forgotten quarrels of 1829,
and, speaking of the language used by the Right Hon. Baronet
at a time of excitement, and with reference to a measure upon
which great difference of opinion prevailed, attribute to him
expressions which, if the Right Hon. Baronet had ever used
them, and he ( Sir R. Peel) possessed not the slightest recol-
lection of his having done so, he must in his calmer moments
have regretted ; and having done so, did he not urge the inex-
pediency of his having been selected to fill an office under the
present Administration ?—(Loud cries of hear from the Op-
position.) Hon. Members on the other side of the House cry
Hear, hear ;" but, Sir, let me ask of them is it or is it not
the fact that my Right Hon. Friend, whose appointment to
the situation of Paymaster to the Forces is considered so con-
vincing an indication of illiberal dispositions on the part of the
Government—whose appointment is considered sufficient to
condemn in the eyes of the people the whole policy and inten-
tions of the Government—is, I ask, the report, which at the
time was very generally credited, and, I may add, believed,
that my Right Hon. Friend was offered by the Government of
Lord Grey a still higher appointment than that he now holds
true or false ?—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches,
mingled with cries of no, no, from the Opposition side of the
House.) All I can say is, I have heard it stated, and I have
not before heard it contradicted, that the office of Secretary
at War was offered to my Right Hon. Friend.—( Cries of no,
no, from the Opposition.) My Right Hon. Friend did not
himself tell me so, but as it was publicly stated, and as it has
never been hitherto contradicted, I maintain I have a right to
assume it was true.—( Renewed cries of no, no.) It was cer-
tainly so stated in tho only vehicles of news to which the public
at large have access, and sure I am that in those publications it
was not. contradicted. I know not, I repeat, whether the fact
was as stated or not, but I do know it was publicly stated and
that it was not publicly contradicted.—( Hear, hear.) Well,
then, I say, Sir, if such an offer as that to which I allude was
made to my Right Hon. Friend, it is not fair to blame his
appointment to an office under the present Administration as
an i ndication of its intention to pursue an illiberal or unpopu-
lar system of policy.—( Cheers.) I come now to the particular
point of the question under discussion.—( Loud cries of " Hear,
hear," from the Opposition benches.) Surely Hon. Members
opposite aro not so impatient that they cannot spare me even

five short minutes to make an mrinary preface to al, orcinar;,
speech.—( A laugh.) Surely they .-tre not so impatient as not
to allow me time to lay the groundwol:k for my defence.—(A
laugh.) I will, however, not trifle with that impatience, and I
at once proceed to the point in dispute. As I said before,
have not the least doubt that the appoinfrae
nt of Lord Loll-
donderry must be unsatisfactory to those 'Members of the
House whose policy is directly opposed to ours ; but I want to
s
know, and I thought from the course the present ....lebate .
taken that I might have attained the knowledge, „-hat a!-et
the allegations, what the specific charges, which canbe
against Lord Londonderry, and upon what grounds it is Oa'.
his appointment as Ambassador is to subject the Goversuner4;
to which I have the honour to belong to the censure of 511i5
House. Up to the present moment I believe the sole charge
against the Noble Marquis is—and it is the charge of the-
Hon. Member for Kircudbright—that of his having expressed
an opinion in his capacity of a Peer of the Realm that the late •
Government had pursued their interference on behalf of the
Poles to an unjustifiable extent, and that he had termed thenr
" the rebellious subjects of the Emperor of Russia."—( Hear,
hear.) And was that alone sufficient to disqualify the Noble
Marquis from being employed under the Government ? WilYr
Sir, I heard but a few evenings since an Hon. Member on the
bench opposite tell the House that unless everything his.
Majesty's Canadian subjects required was conceded to them
by the British Government they would become—l quote the
Hon. Member's precise words—" rebellious subjects of the
King of England." Was this sufficient in his own estimation
to disqualify that Hon. Member from obtaining any Govern-
ment appointment ?—( Hear, and a laugh.) But, Sir, putting
for the mument out of view this consideration., I have to say
that the scraps of speeches upon which the Hon. Member for
Tipperary has founded his allegations against the Noble
Marquis do not appear in the authentic reports of the proceed-
ings in the House of Lords. I have before me Hansards
Debates, and there I cannot find them.
Mr. SHEIL—They will be found in the Mirror of Par-
liament.
Sir ROBERT PEE L— I know not as to the Mirror of,
Parliament, but I have here before me a work certain as
authentic, and certainly as, if not more, carefully edited than
that publication, in which I can find no such expressions as ,
those attributed to the Noble Marquis. lam not in a situae
tion positively to deny his having used them, but I cannot
find them in the very careful version of Parliamentary reports
hold in my hand.—( Hear.) But Sir, are we to judge of in-
dividuals by the language they make use of in the excitement ,
of debate ?—(Hear.) Do we not daily see here within the
walls of this our House of Assembly Hon. Members led asvai
by the warmth of discussion, by their party feelings, or,--ant.
I shall not have to impose a great tax on the recollection
Hon. Members of stating the last of my incitements--bY
their desire to criminate a Government to which they enter' :
tain hostility—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—make use of ex-
ressions by which in their calmer moments they would much
regret being obliged to abide.—( Cheers.) This takes place
almost every day, and is it, I ask, fair or just, that upon such
evidence the conduct of a public man should be judgcd?---
(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Tipperary admitted that
as far as Lord Londonderry's personal character is concerned
lie has ever acted with the manliness, which is inseparable
from his mind and character. Is this, let me ask, an unim-
portant quality in an Ambassador ?—( Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member for Middlesex, in order to make out a ease,
against the Noble Marquis, has brought up the collateral
question of the salary connected with the office of' Ambassador'
Sir, let me ask what is the Hon. Gentleman's authority for
stating that the salary of the Russian Ambassador is 15,00 u"
a-year ?
Mr. HUME—I stated that the salary attached to the ,
office was 10,0001. a-year, but that in addition to that sum tiler;
was an allowance of 1,0001. a-year for a house, which, %vit
contingences calculated at 4,0001. a-year, brought the annual
income of the office up to the sum of 15,000/. 1,, 1
Sir R. PEEL—I don't exactly know how the fact may
and, therefore, cannot deny the Hon. Member's statement-
The Hon. Member may be right, but still I must say he is n°,o
so uniformly accurate in his statements that I would wish he—
take it on his representation alone.—(Laughter.) But '
that as it may, was it exceeding the salary usually allotted t
the Ambassador to the Court of Russia ? Was it more tbs.:
the salary allowed to Sir Stratford Cannin? Was it n0t,25
short, the rate of salary fixed upon by Lorcd Palmerston,in
sanctioned by the late Government ?—( Hear, hear.) \‘"_..-
right, then, let me ask, has the Hon. Member for Middlesc--,.
—nay, any other Hon. Members—to endeavour to create Olt
impression against the individual by speaking of the anions
of salary attached to the office he is appointed to fill ? W,ss?
the amount of the salary sufficient to vitiate the appointment!
If it be too high reduce it. If the character of the individ,tns
selected make his selection an improper one, attack it •
do not endeavour to create a feeling against the indiviclO"'
by joining the question of character with that of salary
;:
( Hear, hear.) " But," says the Hon. Member for Micial
sex, " Lord Londonderry has been attacked by the 17/176
and, therefore, he must be an improper person to appoint g
your Ambassador to Russia." Am I, then, to understst
the Hon. Member as thinking that the Times correctly in
cates public opinion ?—( Cheers.) Will the Hon. Gentlen
take his own character from the Times ?—( Loud laugh,fte,f.'
This, I think, is a very fair question, because, if the PIO
Member can call the Times as a witness against the charse-0.
of Lord Londonderry, he must allow me to say, that be to
appealing to a witness that he won't find very favourable
his own character.—( Roars of laughter.) But, Sir, wouldor, •
be justified in listening to the chance animadversions ;„0
public journal upon the conduct of a public man as suffiere,
ground why he should not be employed in the public Sergi lie)
Lord Londonderry has for years served the public in a Peb $
capacity, and can appeal to the record of those services Ur,'
cooler testimony than that of the Times, or of those 1-I°ll,o
able Members who sought, for party purposes, to NO
81
down. I presume that no one in this House, whatever Ito,
be his politics, will venture to call in question the military c";,1
tinction of the Noble Marquis. I presume no one will dory
no officer, except perhaps my Gallant and !Resler
Friend the Secretary of State For Foreign Affairs. nner,
whom he served, so nobly devoted himself to the public.gio
vice, or exposed himself more courageously in defence e
country, than the individual in whose defence I am now sloe
ing.—( Cries of Oh, oh, from Sir S. Whalley and other the
Members by whom he was surrounded.) " Oh," saY5,OO
Hon. Member for Marylebene, ever ready to hear an atta;.iii
those to whom he is politically opposed, and ever eq,..er
ready to interrupt those who sought to defend the absent -erot
unjust imputations.—(Loud cheers from the Mini° s
benches)
Sir S. WHALLE Y—l was not the only Member v‘n°
terrupted the Right Hon. Baronet.
Sir R. PEEL—Perhaps not, but the Hon. IVlembe,,ro
one of those who interrupted my defence of him who PI, or
nobly served his country ; others joined him, but I will'ese),
take up the time of the House by noticing them.--4'.010'
But it was not merely in the field the Noble Marquis
guished himself. From the year 1809 to 1813 he fille"J
ie
office of Adjutant-General in Lord Wellington's staff, alio'
that capacity received the marked approbation of that coo
trious warrior. The Noble Lord served in a diplomats Bruise
city from 1813 to 1823. In 1813 he represented the be
Court at Berlin, and in 1814 at Vienna, from whence fprever
turned in 1823, at his own most earnest request. Be "00
has been made, and most unfairly made, to the circun39ooo‘
of the Noble Lord having applied at this time for a Pe oerro'
—( Hear, hear.) True lie did so ; but it was under aooloB'
nexus impression of his being entitled to it. But allin lots
Sir, I say allowing that the Noble Lord was guilty °nee ir
than error in this application, would such a circumste"„dete
duce Hon. Gentlemen to declare—l for one cannot aell
such an opinion—that it was a proof of unfitness? Sufie (11
main question to be considered was, not whether he 61eatifsi.
military station of Adjutant-General with honour, for Pots'
admitted on all hands, but whether, in the diplomatieforelgolif
tions in which he had represented his Sovereign at .
Courts he had given satisfaction ? During his Oro
ten years at Vienna, to whom shall I turn for noettl,.,"'
partial testimony of his public conduct ? If I ,7tea fj
the opinion of Lord Aberdeen, Honourable Gentle test
the opposite side of the House will not admit 0' tlrt
fair, and if I appeal to the Duke of Wellingtei4t
will equally protest against being bound by that., ntientf
refer to Mr. Canning, to whose Government Hon. unreel
opposite gave their support, not on account of their ag fa"
with him on domestic matters, but on account of 0,4001
policy—( Hear, hear)—and if I can show that Mr. 'Ol,
highly appreciated the integrity and qualifications sot,
Londonderry. such testimony must be considered f;7,ed SOl4,
tory to those who gave him such cordial and unetlawseciecis
port, and gave it him, I again repeat, especially hien°
of his foreign policy. When Lord Londonderry exPrereeei"
wish to resign his office as Ambassador at Vienna, be
the following communication from Mr. Canning ief/'
Oct. 15' ellenel.
Foreign-office,
" My Lord,—Having laid before the King your %coos 5;
despatch, dated 26th ult., requesting his Majestys gr:„,, A 04,0%
mission to retire from the eminent post of his 3faies'J '5 ILO
sador at the Court of Vienna, I have received his Ma/ vest irielrso
mands signifying to your Excellency that his Majefej %Ink,
pleased to grant the permission you solicit, accompanl,olo PI, 91
expression of his Majesty's deep regret for the loss of Yrobstl°ol
lent 's services, and of his Majesty s full and entire apg.,eark
the manner in which your Excellency has for a series 0145 I_4cl
in times of most critical importance, conducted the
_"; i0t1")01
embassy entrusted to your charge, and maintained ttetvieell
and cordial good understanding so happily subsisting "
Majesty and his Majesty's Imperial ally. $
Such was the testimony Mr. Canning gave t° ibastlceC:etls/
tions and conduct of Lord Londonderry on the. 1 're
on which he was employed in the public service,
_.%no 're
say, Sir, when we take this into consideration,iownderritbell
member the intimate alliance that Lord 1-,°"%jois Mold
with the events of 1814, and the manner in r_at soneloptt
performed his arduous duties, that I do think tn appoint",
more than angry speeches denouncing this beiug tow
something more than an allusion to an applicatro 000 to
for a pension, ought to be requisite to cenntell) I 'II et
mony given in this impartial manner—(Cheers'.'„eoeore
know, said the Right Hon. Baronet, apart
froombles 511111
judice, what allegation there is against the Notion s!!001: •
wil: admit of being substantiated. In cof:,airs of logiet?
subject Hon. Gentlemen had alluded to the "
InterfeLeaPtbe..:of
It was the duty of the Government, say they, to
revenw
to the treaty of Adrianople, and thus nave ghat the tioa
vance of the Russian army. Ido not think.
,„peo. toor
Commons would have sanctioned a great roilitearlitois% foe!
any such purpose. To have prevented teed no snlati`
from passing the Balkan would have re e
quiermber f°l "'et
and Ido not think, so long as the Hon. .
ttl
acnh 'larger 13u feilt#oo':,
pseaxsseendtethrtisainlslohuisseprfeosrentht
copsinuilolpnisy, that est:rfonlay
,of
tet.blo,._o4(o.
thirty-five thousand men, or even a inn
..st have 00_0
against a power like Russia, expedition_ :su_, tite!„„,r,l/07,
expedition. The affairs of Greece at th ot:24.erefo;i
h -hole qu
pore
settled, and the suspension of the .
Iva be-
ts
ties must have been the result of any for
Lord Holland approved of no such PO"

als ordinary
atient as not
fence.—(
ationee, and •
id before, I

Lord Lon-.
fibers of the
rut I want to
t ,jebate has
of „-hat are
TI be bt.ougbt
ds it i 3 Oat
G overtime 1:1%.
'sure of this:
sole charge
large of he.
ig expressted
that the late
>ebalf of the
termed thenr
ia."—( Hear,
fy the Noble
en t ? WiaYr
ember on the
ierything his
ded to them
—I quote the
bjects of the
vn estimation
any Govern-
, Sir, putting
have to say
Member for
the Noble
'the proceed-
>e Hansard's

,rror of Par-

he Mirror of
)rk certain ag
y edited than!xpressiot?s
I°t in a situ t
but I Cannot
itary report! I
) judge of
ac excitemente
re within th
Lbers led avay.
ecolleetion
citements--by
ch they enter:
ike use of )
y would mileh!
!is takes place
let upon such
De judged?
at
admitted t
rl
's concerned
is inseparable
ask,
an unitiv
,rs,e
hear. ) Pe
ike out a case
the collateral
)f Ambassador:
's authority fo:
for is 15,00'

tacked to the
that sum there -
ie, which,
ght the annual

he fact may be• I
)er's statement.
A say he is net
would wish
tter.) But be
Illy allotted to
it more than
Was it not, in •
almerston,
hear.) What
for Middlesef •
to create tio
a-
of the aincue.dt
to fill ?
) appointntent.
F the individttal
attack it • 10
the individual
,at of
)er for Midd
le.
by the TOO s,
to appoint
, to understand
correctly indi.
lon. Genticinet
.oud laughte/
se, if the Wit
st the charlotte'
say, that beteje
7 favourable
;, Sir, would tee
$
adversions of
nan as sufficieat
public service.,
üblic in a public
se services as 4,
those Honoilv
ses, to ruti
, whatever fee'
the military diP o
o one will dee
and Illustrioile
Affairs. alader
) the public see
n defence of
am now spew'
and other Bo!:
Oh," says °_"
ear an attack e'
id ever eyttaill
the absent f7.101'
the Ministe

Member WI °

1. Memberas
k
him who not
, but I tvo"'esr.).
them.
Marquis d 1 A the
13 he io
Dn's staff, °lie
m of that clot
diplomaticnritiob
nted the rr
whence "- oee fere
test. ria step
he cireuto 900.
ne for a poeco
s under
nut alloy re
r 0
s guilty (3 4e, ir
nircumstalt,de,t°
eannot!e_sie tbr
ness ?
:her he filut'tfts‘.
tour, for tPlisit9.
diplom:tiernreitiof
an t
his on,i°ll'
U IffOr gilij to
I aPrrlop
Le Gentle bat
dmit of
weilingtommi if
r that.,dealei
}lon. 11`0401
)f their ag
tnt of hiscon
hat Mr. of
tions Ada
Lea sep-
iereel a-. .
iUnCiflaalille (I'ol
in oils° ecibi
IIY r •ce
;rry eal,crece
enna, 0'
kngOct. r I;iic
'your i'
a%-ioes
gr
faiesty
his Majesrlisl,bi,
; majelsalt ,
ani Sa'ef
cum): ,our j
ohs of
tire aPPgru,;ark'sy
aeries ot of
the lots bl°
fined thtvieett
sisting .
00
etl
o th`h'ecevot
14the
• e d 1
Old
rVIC f ben b
30n /J
,onde tb.„
Lona AI be „jog
in%chi' 004
apb
k that 50 'otai`stie
I° 0
eiog
esti,
!allot nbe to
n t erl 3" OA" e,
.) I arylllf,eers e
from geLOrd
Noble ads
tio 0.04%
ineco
,
affair 9 pre 10
)interferfd tbe Of
revent'l4o""fer
that a
t"ediiftlooe
ry eal). t'
e gusgeno ool:
ed no 51118/014410
tuber tbr baor
00'9 rthiftl for
1111 Y ber,,,,t' eti
arger 11,°01111-00,;,
h Crebe
one throefiver' not
,stiou'° afert.ol
irlik° percfl
for be