The Sun.
London, England, 1832-06-06 00:00:00

BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day
for taking into consideration the Lords' Amendments of the
Reform in Parliament (English) Bill.
Order of the Day read.
Lord .1. RUSSELL—Sir, in rising to give the House
in explanation of those amendments which have been made
by the Lords in the Reform Bill, and in moving (which it
is my intention subsequently to do) that this House agree
with the Lords in those amendments, I cannot enter on the
sahjeet without first congratulating the House that the
Bill has been returned to us unchanged iu any of its essen-
tial provisions—(cheers)—and unimpaired in itsefficiency.
—(Cheers.) The points on which the Lords have
amended the Bill are not such as to call for any lung con-
sideration, or to raise any doubt as to the agreement of
this House in those ameridrnenta. One of the first and
most important (for there are not many of those amend-
ments that are important) regards that clause introduced
by the lion. Member for P.odinin, for the purpose of pre-
venting the future creation of freeholders for life, which,
in other words, was to prevent the manufacture of votes
for political purposes. It hay appeared to the House of
Lords that this clause was too restrictive, and that it would
forestall the rights which some bona fide freeholders would
otherwise have. Their Lordships have, therefore, inserted
this by way of exception—" Except such persons in the ac-
tual occupatio❑ of lands and tenements, or except such as
come by marriage settlement, devise, or promotion to any
office." Now it is obvious that these exceptions will open a
very wide door, and. I myself doubt whether it will not be
fund too wide, and whether the intention of the clause will
not to a certain extent be defeated by the exception. How-
ever, I think it an alteration in which this House has no
alternative hut to agree. Their Lordships have also made
alterations in some parts of the Bill, with reference to the
right of voting for counties. Where we said that the
property ought to Le of 101. value to the holder, it ap-
peared to their Lordships that the words) " to him" ltd
into some sort of difficulty, and that it might be contended
that the holding was of the value 101. to the particular
individual, although not to any other person. Their
Lordships have expunged the words "to him." In this
instance it may be a matter of doubt whether the amend-
ment has at all improved the Bill ; but at the same time,
as it appeared to their Lordships that the bona fide cha-
racter of the voter was assured without these words, I
cannot see any objection in our coinciding in this amend-
ment. The next alteration is an important one, having
reference to the 101. clause and those which belong to it.
After the words " warehouse or shop," their Lordships
have introduced the words " or other building ;" and
have likewise introduced the same words in that clause
which says, that if a person occupies a house, warehouse,
or shop, by which he acquires a right of voting in the
borough, i❑ that case he shall not be entitled to vote for
the same possession as a freeholder. It cannot be denied
that the consequence of the introduction of these words is
the extension of the franchise. It was thought when the
Bill was in this House that the confining the franchise to
certain known designations, such as houses, with the subse-
quent extension which was adopted of warehouses and shops,
would have the effect of excluding persons possessing mere
outhouses or stables, and who did not come under the
character intended to be given to the 10/. voters. But, at
all events, I must say that I am glad to find, that in dealing
with this 10/. clause, their Lordships have resorted to ex-
tension instead of diminution—(Cheers)—and in this
spirit I trust that the House will be willing to adopt the
clause as it now stands.—(Cheers.) In another clause,
which stands page 10 in the printed Bill of the House of
Commons, there are some words referring to the landlord
being liable for the payment of the rates, and the word
" alone" is introduced to signify that both tenant and
landlord are rated by that clause. Whether, however,
that would be the effect of the word " alone" there, may
be doubtful ; but, however, this their Lordships have
altered. Ido not think that there are any other altera-
tions of importance, as far as the qualification is concerned;
but there are some with respect to the registration, one of
which appears to me most useful and judicious : it is to
the effect, that if a person sends his name to the overseer,
and the overseer omits to take notice of it, that person
shall have the power of going before the barrister, and
proving that he sent his name to the overseer. There is
some alteration likewise as to the correction of the regis-
ters, with respect to the Christian name, place of abode,
and qualification of the voters. According to the Bill as
it now stands (and 1 think that the amendment is a very
proper one), a person whose name, after being sent,
has been mistaken in any of these particulars, has the
power of proving before the barrister the corrected
l'orm in which he ought to be inserted in the list;
hut if lie does not so come forward, the defect in
form will operate to the expunging of his name from
the register. There is another very important clause
which has been added to the end of the Bill, and
which refers to the time for making out the lists for
the present year. As the Bill stood, certain notices
were required to be given on the 20th of June, and the
commencement of the machinery, of the registration was
to take its date from that day : but as it is probable that
the Boundary Bill wi►l not have passed through Parlia-
ment by that time, and as it is uncertain by what day it
will have passed, this clause has been introduced for the
purpose of enabling his Majesty, by an order in Council, to
fix other days and dates for putting in operation the regis.
tration for the present year. Considering the position in
which we now are, and that the Boundary Bill is still be-
fore the House, it was thought not safe to fix any certain
period for the commencement of the registration, as that
Bill must first pass before any day can be settled, and as it
would also be the means of encumbering the Bill with a
❑umber of dates, which will be utterly useless after the ex-
piration of the present year. Of course, those who ad-
vise the Crown will take care that means are afforded to
every one connected with the voting to have a convenient
opportunity of knowing what their business is, so that the
lists may he accomplished without depriving any one of
his vote. Such, Sir, are the chief alterations which the
House of Lords has made in the clauses of the Bill ; and
there are also verbal corrections which were thotight ne-
cessary for the purpose of making the Bill more clear.
With regard to another part of the Bill, viz. the schedules,
I am happy to say that no alteration whatever has been
made in them. The disfranchisement and the enfranchise-
ment are as extensive as when the Bill went from this
House—(Cheers)—and we may therefore have the satis-
faction of feeling, that whatever benefits the Bill was ori-
eiaally intended to confer, there will be no diminution of
those benefits by the alterations which have taken place in
the Bill, since it was last in this House.—(Cheers.) I
have in conclusion only to move, that their Lordships'
amendments be now read a second time.

Sir E. SUGDEN thought that it would have been bet-
ter if the House had been called to fix the date for the
commencement of the registration in the present year;
cut considering the power to which it was proposed to de-
legate that authority, he would not insist more fully on
that objection. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after
animadverting on some of the verbal alterations made in
the Bill, proceeded to say that he meant to call the atten-
tion of the House to the means which had been adopted
to secure the passing of the Bill. Tise Bill had not only
come back from the other House—it had come back with-
out one objection to it being removed, or one alteration
baying been made in it in the other House even to meet
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have
the power to deal with the details of the measure—that it
would be in their hands— ind would be left to their calm
deliberation. To be quite certain on this point, he had
consulted the usual authorities to which they had re-
course, and lie found that the Noble Earl had said,
after stating that he could not consent to any al-
terations in the principle, " that it does not depeni:
on me, it depends on your Lordships." The Noble Earl
also said that " their Lordships would have power to make
alterations." If there were any meaning in language,
those words had pledged the Government to leave the Bill
to the free deliberation of the House of Lords ; but how
that pledge had been kept the country should now Lear,
and posterity would judge.—(llear, hear.) When it was
proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman near him in the
House of Commons, that enfranchisement should precede
disfranchisement, the Noble Lord opposite said it was nut
a matter of much importance; and though the proposi-
tion was resisted, it was not vital to the Bill. Why, then,
was it made so much of in the House of Lords ? in that

!erision, indeed, there was an important principle at
asue ; for, by striking at the boroughs as a nuisance, the) I
-truck out a part of the Constitution under which the hest
laws were made that now governed the country. Was ii
sight, then, to disfranchise first? Was it right to insist
upon that form as essential to the Bill ? Was it right,
nn that account, after the Ili-tee rt had been given,
to throw up the Govarnitteot, awl force on a deci•
sion that was so hosti e to the Constitution ? Tin
Honourable and Learned Gentleman next adverted
to a letter which had appeared in the Times, and which
had been furnished, he said, by an individual who was in
communication with the Government—he meant Colonel
Jones. The knowledge which he had acquired of a letter
written by a Noble Individual to the King could only have
been obtained from a Government office. That letter was
obtained by Col. Jones from a Government office.—[Lord
Altliorp was understood to deny this across the table.]
It came from a Government office, and he was ready to
state what office it came frorn.—(Name, name.) The
only difficulty he had in naming the office was the question
whether lie was justified, after the denial of the Noble
Lord, in taking that opportunity of fixing the office ; but
it was his belief, and he would say is now his belief, but
for the statement of the Noble Lord, that the letter came
from an office of the greatest importance in the adminis-
tration of the Government, and that letter was commie
nitrated to Colonel Jones. Colonel Jones was a gentleman
well known to the House, and was a candidate to repre-
sent one of the new metropolitan districts, and he had
lately made a speech at Blackheath, in which he used
sonic observations that were worthy of the attention of
the House. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman quoted
a part of Colonel Jones's speech, in which be said,
" that he had last week addressed an assembly under
very different circumstances, and he had then to tell
them that there were guns planted upon the heights to
overawe them ; but that a few of the people would die, and
then that the guns would be in their possession. He
thanked God that he spoke to them under different cir-
cumstances, and that no heart then ached at the change
but that of a soldier, who was ready to sacrifice the liber-
ties of his country to his guilty ambition." The gentle-
man aspired to represent one of the new metropolitan
boroughs, and he said that guns were planted on the
heights to overawe the people, and that a few of them only
would die, and that then the guns would be in their power.
But if the guns were placed there, by whose orders was it
done but by those of the Government—for the security of
the people themselves, and to prevent outrage and riot ?
Statements of that kind were the means that were employed
to excite the people. [The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
also referred to the statements which bad appeared in the
papers, of troops marching to over awe the metropolis,
and complained that no contradiction ever appeared of those
statements, but they were suffered to do their office of ex-
citing the people.] He would next appeal to the House if
there could be any thing more unconstitutional, more
illegal, than the refusal to pay taxes? But to that uncon-
stitutional and illegal means the Noble Lord, the Member
for Northamptonshire (Lord Milton) seemed to make him-
self a party. A paragraph appeared in the Times on the
24th May, which stated that the Noble Lord was one of
those who would not pay taxes, for he had told the tax-
gatherer when he came for taxes to call again.—[Lord
Milton assented, we believe, to the statement.] Did the
Noble Lord adopt that description of his conduct as accu-
rate ?—(Hear, bear.) He would say that a more illegal
or mere dangerous sentiment never was entertained.
The Noble Lord was a man of high authority, in possession
of great wealth, and he ought to set an example of obe-
dience to the laws instead of resisting payment of tassel, tak-
ing away from Government its strength and rendering its
arm powerless. The Noble Lord would take away from the
King his power to carry on the Government and defend
the property of the subjects. To enter into a consbination
to refuse the payment of taxes was a most illegal act, and
nothing could be more illegal or more dangerous. For
his situation he paid a great deal to the state, and he re-
ceived nothing from the taxes; but he should think him-
self bound to give his last shilling in payment of the taxes.
He never would resist the law. He was not aware how
any Government could possibly stand against such shocks.
They must overthrow any Government; and it was the duty
of all ranks and classes of good subjects to discountenance all
such proceedings. He was sorry that he did not see the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman present—the Master in Chan-
cery and the brother of the highest legal authority—because
he meant to remind him of a speech which had been at-
tributed to him. That Learned Gentleman ought to be
particularly cautious, because, in spite of his protestations,
in spite of all he could say to the contrary, it would be
supposed that lie spoke the sentiments and wishes of the
Noble Lord. He ought, of all men, to be careful
in making any declarations. He did not himself
assert that the Honourable and Learned Member
spoke the sentiments of the Noble Lord—he dis-
claimed any such opinion ; but he said that the
world in general would suppose that was the case. The
Hon. and Learned Member was represented to have said,
that it was illegal to combine to resist the payment of
taxes, but that any individual, when he was asked for his
taxes, might tell the tax-gatherer to call again. . Such lan-
guage would be considered as giving the sanction and
example of the Noirle anti Learned Lord to such illegal
conduct. If the Hon. and Learned Member who made
this statement, and who was bound to know the law and
obey it, would advise the people to break it, what could be
expected of the people themselves ? It could never be
tolerated, that a man filling a high judicial situation should
be among the first to teach the people to set the law at
defiance. How could he afterwards enforce the law, if lie
set the example of disobeying the law? This was no
party question; but it was of great importance ; and it
was the duty of all to uphold the law and the Govern-
ment. The question went to the very existence of the
Government, let who would administer it. It related to
the existence of the State ; for the State and the Govern-
metit could not exist if the people would not obey the law.
He was showing, by these observations, the means that
had been employed to excite the people, in order to secure
the passing of the Bill ; but such conduct would assuredly
lead to the complete destruction of the Government.
There was another measure which had been adopted, that
could not be sufficiently reprobated. To bring the Go-
vernment to terms, a run had been made upon the Bank.
Was there ever a more dangerous line of conduct ? That
was destroying the prosperity of the country, in order to
aim a blow at the Government, and it was done by those
whose ditty it was to support the Government. Again, a
similar attack had been made through the means of the
savings' banks. lie had a great respect fir the lower
orders, and he should never separate his happiness from
that of the great body of the people ; but he would lift up
his voice, if lie could make his voice heard, to warn them
against making their property and its security the means
of effecting a political purpose. That would render it
necessary for the Government to take from them the
power of putting their savings into the Government
securities, for it never could he borne that they should
have it in their power, while their own property was
perfectly safe, to damage the property of all the
other creditors of the State. No Government could ex-
ist if these laws were not altered; for it was the fluty of
Government, while it provided for the security of others,
not to do that at the expense of itself. After this ex-
ample, he thought it would lie necessary that the Savings
Banks Acts should undergo a revision. Let who would
be in Administration, they must take care to maintain the
Government. The result of all was, that the Ministers
were forced back under conditions on their Sovereign,
and the Members of the other House were forced either to
abdicate their functions or to be swamped by a new crea-
tion of Peers. They chose the former, but no man could
say that their authority was not entirely destroyed. That
part of the King's speech which recommended a measure
that was to preserve the authority of both Houses of
Pediment had been completely falsified. He had been
to the House, and he had never witnessed anything
with greater sorrow, and pain, and humiliation, than the
debates of that Ilouse—a mockery, indeed, of debates—
for no man could assert that the voice of that House bad
not been stifled. Was the measure passed by the free will
of that House ?—No such thing. Were the Peers at liberty
to object to particular parts of the measure, and make it
somewhat better than it went up from that House? No.
It was passed as if the assembly were a Turkish Divan.
His Majesty's Ministers did it all on their authority, and
their responsibility, without the slightest assistance or ad-
vice from the great body of the Peers. His Majesty's 1111-
nisters had, in fact, carried their measure by a minority. in
a most illegal manner. It was plain on the face of it, that
now. be no
Bills.
House aTthsv majorityB
There
ees
the minority had, by illegal threats. excluded. tßh
least improvement in them. It
.yvas, therefore, a mere loss
of time to him at least to discuss them. He did not
lwifsi'vr:eohltrmiaeeta oyPnwfeleorufftivilseedac'rmotshit:bneanget reinaeeyi ffdttaheleteooetnfsr: alteration !ocet, nbt eiuidcsti
ansotteni:iteehtirielLemoce,bot otherj
lerldit e.
making the
stand there to talk for his pleasure, but for the purpose of
protnoting the welfare of the people and the good of society.
laugh.)interest
Aterest
of his country at heart a
mightTheNobleLordsehi as th
m smile, but
ehephroauds
had the
Lord.—(Hear.) He was but a humble man, but be was
proud of his rights, and would stand up for them as much
as the proudest Lord amongst all those on the opposite side.
He would recommend the Noble Lord, instead of going
through the mockeries of a debate, to pass the Bills at
once by an Order of Council ; for there was not the
slightest hope that the other House would be suffered to

A

leliberate on them. He should mark those and think
them quite undeserving of the character and. name of
l,:nglishmen, who, after having assisted to degrade
-he other House—after having tarnished its lustre,
and deprived it of its glories, should go into that
►ssembly they had degraded. He should mark those
who were anxious to share the honours they had soiled.
These operations of the Government were, in hie opinion,
entitled to the most serious consideration. They have al-
ready had a most alarming effect on the other House, and
what might be expected when the Bill came into opera-
tion? Much responsibility would be on those who had
opened these flood-gates, and let out the water,: of desola-
tion. lie, like a worthless straw, might float idly and se-
curely down them, but he should witness others sink over-
loaded with honours and wealth. He bad honestly op-
posed the Bill, and had honestly endeavoured to amend it ;
but now it was likely to become a law, and lie should ac•
commodate himself to live under the Bill. He was pre-
pared to make himself at ease under the new Bill. He
would throw not the slightest impediment in the way of
its execution ; he would lend himself to carry it into effect
like a good subject, and he would live as well as he could
under that new Constitution which was forced upon him,
and, lie admitted, legitimately forced upon him, as far as
that House was concerned, by the majority. But it was
not so as far as the other House was concerned, which
had been eclipsed and destroyed. He looked certainly to
the good sense, and moderation, and conservative prin-
ciples of the people, to avert the calamities which might
otherwise be expected from the Bill. In conclusion, the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman denounced political and
parochial unions, which he described as usurping all the
power and authority of Government, and he declared that
these meetings must be protected if the Government itself
was not to he destroyed.
Lord ALTHORP began by adverting to the amend-
ments made in the Bill, and the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman's remarks on them, and expressed himself satis-
fied with them, particularly as they would tend to extend
the franchise, of which he was glad. The Noble Lord
then said that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had taken
the opportunity of again discussing, as it had before been
discussed, the conduct of Government, and had imputed
blame to it which he was not justified in imputing. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman began by stating what had
before been stated, that the House of Lords was to be al-
lowed to make alterations in the Bill. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had referred to the speech of his
Noble Friend to confirm his view, and said that his Noble
Friend had said he would accede to any alterations in the
Committee. But if his Noble Friend had stated that he
would allow of alteration, he could not have meant that
he would not allow cf amendments which would interfere
with the principles of the Bill. His Noble Friend stated
that be was pledged not to agree to such alterations.
Whatever his Noble Friend might have stated in his reply
on the second reading of the Bill, he could never have in-
tended to abandon the pledge he had given to his country.
What was the amendment which was proposed? The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said that he bad de-
scribed it as a trifling one when proposed in that House,
and had declared that it was of little importance whether
eafranchisetnent or disfranchisement went first. He did
not recollect that he had not said so ; be would not deny
that be had said so ; but he did not believe that he had. The
question that was decided in the House of Lords was not a
question of mere precedence—the decision concerned the
principles of the Bill. It had always been declared in
that House, and was so understood by the country, that
the boroughs contained in schedule A were evils in them-
selves, and therefore they were to he disfranchised, not to
make ►ootn for the enfranchised boroughs. The prin-
ciple of time amendment, however, was, that these bo-
roughs were only to give way to enfranchised bo-
roughs. His principle was, and that was the principle
etnheaced by the people, that the nomination boroughs
were contrary to the rights and liberties of the people.
When the House of Lords came to a decision on this sub-
ject, contrary to the Ministers, it was impossible for the
Government to come to any other conclusion than that
;.he principle of the Bill was at stake. What were the
Ministers the❑ to do ? Were they to give way on every
point ? Were they to give up every pledge? 'Were they
to continue in office, and see the principle of the Bill gra-
dually broken down and taken away, till the whole Bill
was destroyed with their consent ? It was impossible
that they could contemplate such result. They felt it
was impossible for them to go on with the Committee un-
der such circumstances, and they, therefore, thought it
their duty to give that advice which they thought them-
selves justified in giving, and as that was not followed, to
tender their resignations. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman had attributed all the excitement which existed
throughout the country to the imprudence of his Majesty's
Government. This was unfair and unjust. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman said that Colonel Jones must have
been in communication with the Government, otherwise
he could not have obtained. that letter which bad been the
subject of so touch remark. He begged to say that he
personally knew Colonel Jones, as he believed did many
other members of his Majesty's Government—that when
lie met Colonel Jones, he might interchange communica-
tion with him, as one private gentleman might do with
another; but that he ever communicated with Colonel
Jones as a member of Government--that he ever commu-
nicated to him any such matters as were charged against
him, he most distinctly denied.--(Loud cheers.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman referred to some information
which he said Colonel Jones must have received from his
Majesty's Government. He referred to a letter which had
been stated in some other place to have been inserted lite-
rally in the Times journal.—(Hear, hear.) It was said
that that letter was inserted in the Times verbatim. But
what was the fact? •Why it turned out that no such
letter had ever been inserted at all.—(Cries of " Hear.")
Sir E. SUGDEN said (as we understood), that was of
no consequence.

Lord ALTHORP—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
seemed to think that this was not a matter of any import-
ance, but when a person made a statement that a letter
was inserted verbatim in a public newspaper, when, in
point of fact, no letter, no pretended copy of or extract
from a letter appeared, hut merely a general statement of
what had occurred, he really thought such an assertion
deserving of at least some renaark.—(Cheers.) The infor-
mation there communicated was such as might have been
gained from sources quite unconnected with his Majesty's
Government, and he most firmly, sincerely, and consci-
entiously believed, that it was not obtained from any Mem-
ber of that Government.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman then went on to state what had been
the course of the debates in the House of Lords ; he said
that the House of Lords were compelled to carry this Bill
against their will—( Hear, from the Opposition)—he de-
nounces this as a blow to the Constitution, and he imputes
this blow to his Alsjesty's Government He did not say
in what manner that House was compelled ; but he (Lord
Alth,rp) would say, that if any force was put on the House
of Lords at all, that force was the universal voice of the
people of England.—(Great cheering.) Circumstances
occurred which convinced the House of Lords that it was
advisab'e no longer to resist the wishes of the whole peo•
ple.—(Tremendous cheering.) The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman said that was not the case. He did not know
on what grounds the Hon. Gentleman said so. The House
of Lords, in acting on such a ground, would not have act-
ed unwisely, nor would they have acted in an unprece-
dented manner, since they had before changed their reso-
lutions for such reasons on questions of infinitely minor
importince.—(Cries of Hear, hear, hear.) The Ho-
in.mrable and Learned Gentleman had charged him and
colleagueshs
conditions on their Sovereign. Why, the only condition
on which they could possibly come back to office, under
such circumstances, was the unequivocal means of carry-
ing the Reform Bill.—(Loud cheers.) He did not wish
to pass that measure by any unconstitutional means. But
they were put to a choice of evils. No one could regard
the excitement which prevailed, and deny that not only
the prosperity, but the very safety of the country depended
upon the measure being carrieri.—(Cheers.) In justice,
therefore, to themselves, to the country, and to their Sove-
reign, they could come back to power on no other prin-
ciples. They did not wish to take any extraordinary
measure, unless it were forced upon them, and he re-
joiced that they were not so forced.—(Hear, hear.) He
should not follow the lion. and Learned Gentleman into
his detail of the consequences which he conceived likely to
result from this measure. The Hon. and Learned Gen.
tlernan said, that his only dependence was on the good sense
of the people themselves.—(Cheers.) He also depended
on the good sense of the people.—(l.oud and continued
cbeers)—and if he had not depended on the good sense of
the people, he should not have been one of those who
wished to place additional power in their hands.—(Heary
hear.) The only reason by which he was actuated was,
that the people were in a state of know:edge—that they
possessed that good sense which rendered them worthy of
having and capable of exercising a power to which they
were entitled by every principle of the Constitution--5
power which be was convinced would tend to the benefit
of the country, and to the happiness and prosperity of the
nation at large.—(Great cheering.)
Sir R. PEEL said, that the question strictly before
the House was, whether certain amendments made to the
Reform Bill should be sanctioned or not. To these
amendments lie should most certainly give his assent.--
Nay, if it were proposed to pass them without the forma'
lity of reading them, to that proposition also be would
give his assent. For he would not go through the far"

of considering the value of amendments made by a boil,
not in the exercise of its proper functiona.—(Loud chum,
fromn the Opposition.) Under other circumstances, who
four or rive pages of au endments—six pages he believer
there were—when six pages of amendments were made it
a Bill, and a Bill, too, of so much importance as that be-
fore the Housa, he might have asked for an interval of a'
least no or two days for the purpose of considering the
amendments previously to giving them his final sanction.
But those amendments having been made by the House of
Lords under compulsion—(cheer:)-1 e could not but give
his assent to them. The Noble Lord had congratulated
the House that the essential principles of the Bill had not
been altered. Surely the Noble Lord might have spared
a congratulation which amounted to a bitter sneer.—
(Cheers.) He maintained that the independence of that
House had been completely extingni.lied. No such attack
had ever been made upon their independence since the
reign of Queen Anne.—(Cheers.) They were compelled
to allow the passing of the Bill, or see it carried by means
of a creation of Peers sufficient to crush their indepen-
dence for ever.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)—
The Noble Lord said the circumstances of the country
required that they should resort to this step as the lesser
of two evils. It might possibly be so. But that did not
destroy, it rather established the main fact, that the House
of Lords acted under compulsion.—( Hear, hear.) This
nobody could deny. But had lie been a Peer, and the al-
ternative had been pint to him previously to the second read-
ing of the Reform Bill, he would have continued to give it
his oppo•ition.—(Bear.) He would rather have forced
the Government to the unconstitutional exercise of the pre-
rogative than have suffered the mere menace to prevail.
This, had he been a Peer, he would have done before the
,?,d reading. He admitted that after the second reading, and
after the result of the division on the Chief Baron's mo-
tion, and the failure of all attempts to form an Admini-
stration, tie circumstances of the case were changed._
(Rear.) God forbid that he should be considered as
throwing any imputation on men, who he doubted not,
tutted from the most honourable motives. But he re-
peated, that prior to the second reading, he would rather
have forced the Government to that unconstitutional ex-
ercise of prerogative which they threatened than suffer a
mere menace to overawe the House. The menace, they
should remember, was much easier than the act; and if
Government found the menace so successful in carrying a
favourite measure in the very teeth of the House of Peers,
who could insure them against the repetition of a similar
menace on any future occasion ?—(Hear.) The Noble
Lord had adverted to the circumstances of the country as
rendering such an act, in his opinion, mental to the wel-
fare of the people, and to the tranquillity and safety of
the country. Even if he admitted that proposition—if
he admitted that the country was in a state which made
any denial of its demands dangerous to its tranquillity, by
whom, he would ask, was the country roused up to that
pitch of excitement, which left them no alternative but
that of entirely setting aside the authority of the House
of Lords?—( Hear, hear.) It was to the acts, to the con-
duct, to the language of the Government that the great
excitement of the country was owing, and not so much to
the provisions of the Bill itself. Was it well done of his
Majesty's Government to permit the inflammatory speeches
which had been from time to time made? Was it well
done of his Majesty's Government by their conduct to en-
courage and promote, instead of seeking to assuage the
excitement which must infallibly follow the proposition of
Buell a measure ?—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said it
was not right to make the Government responsible for the
imprudent acts or language of public speakers. The
Noble Lord had admitted his intimacy—
Lord ALTHORP said something across the table,
which was inaudible in the gallery.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—WeII, then, his acquaintance—
his occasional communications with one of the parties
whose conduct was arraigned/; but lie disclaimed that he
had communicated to him any state information, and on
this point lie was inclined to admit that the Noble Lord's
defence was satisfactory. But it was the various acts per-
formed by the Members of the King's Government them-
aelea-es that were much more calculated in increase excite-
ment, than the declarations of demagogues at public
meetings. Dld the Noble Lord remember his own decla-
ration, a declaration which, he believed, he land since
sincerely repented, and would now be inclined to recant?
When the King's Ministers held such language, no wonder
that the country was agitated ; no wonder that the:country
was agitated when the Noble Lord, the representative of
the King's Government in that House, made use of such
language. Sentiments of this kind could not be uttered
by responsible Ministers of the Crown without producing
consequences which they might not, at the time of utter-
ance, contemplate. He bad, however, admitted, that it
was a hasty and inconsiderate expression. (He then pro-
ceeded to make some other allusion, which it appeared
Lord Milton applied to himself.) Oh no, it was not quite
so had as that; it was not quite so bad as the declaration
of the Noble Lord, who, upon his own individual sense of
a grievance, declared that he would set the example of re-
fusing to pay;taxes.—(Hear.) He alluded to the correspon-
dence of Ministers with members of Political Unions, to the
representation of the opinions of a large part of the Legis-
lature, as the whisper of a faction.—(Cheers.) These ex-
. pressions fell tom a responsible Minister of the Crown,
and were therefore sure to propagate themselves among the
People. It was such declarations and such acts as these
that led to the destruction of the independent power of
the other branch of the Legislature.—(Loud cries of hear,
from the Opposition.) Then there were the newspapers—
(Hear)—there were certainly newspapers on all sides of
the question, but there were some whose principles
avowedly coincided with those maintained by the Govern-
rent, not that he meant to hold Government responsible
r all the violent declarations of the newspapers which
ev:rosed their cause—hut there were some newspapers
Which, on different occasions, published documents that
could only come from persons in official situations—(Hear)
—yet those very papers had also promulgated sentiments
at which every reflective mind must shudder, and which,
Whatever they might say, were certainly calculated to in-
cite the multitude to the assassination of those who ven-
tured to differ front in opinion. And though he believed
that no person connected with the Government
partici-
pated
in any such sentiments, yet, how were the public toascertain that fact ? One day they clearly saw that these
papers must be in confidential communication with his
Majesty's Government—on the next day they were propa-
gating doctrines revolting to every honourable mind and to
the common feelings of humanity. This being the case,
how are the public to know that the Government would
repudiate the doctrines held forth in papers which it is
clear to all the world they have made their official organs?
It was declarations and acts of the kind to which he had
adverted that had more mischief than the acts of any per-
sons unconnected with Government. These declarations
had been made—inconsiderably, perhaps—but most un-
wisely; and, unfortunately for the country, they haul
tended to provoke more excitement even than the measure
of Reform itself. He viewed with the utmost anxiety the
consequences which would resmilt,from this measure. He
admitted that there was no alternative, after the Ministers
had placed the country in such a situation, save that of
passing the Reform Bill, at the expense of the authority
of the House of Peers, and of all future good Government ;
and he feared much that Government would in future be
carried on by means of, and in accordance with, mere popu-
lar clamour. Them was a remark in a recent publication,
"1-)lltruont's Souvenirs de Mirabeau," which was well tle•
serving the attention of the Ministry, namely, that Go-
vernments ought to well consider before they debate
popular principles, lest the people should be raised
to
make a state of excitement and expectation which would
it impossible to limit their progress to the point ori-
ginally sought.—(Hear, hear.) He feared that Ministers
I,ll,tgioomthereafter resort to the same expedient, to carry any
'Were
to
rte measure. If the question of the Corn Laws
be mooted, the same consequences would probably
ensue. The amp reasoning would be made to apply, and
the same insult would be repeated. They would be told
then, as they Were told
question Wass Whether tol n the. present occasion, that the
Leoverpowered,
me independence of the House of
Lords was to
jeoparti(low?ered, or time tranquillity of the
country pot in
case, it would in otherys If it did not happen in that
• Declarations would be made
calculated to excite the people, and then they would he
told that for that exciteement the only remedy would be
again to violate the independence of the Peers.—(Hear,
har.) The Noble Lord (Milton) had declared that in
came Government repfulesedoftothpeass the Reform Bill, lie
would set the exam
to pay taxes.
What ! if a man in the situationrefusint
refusing to
Noble Lord,
blessed with rank and affluence, shooufld refuse the pay-
ment of
taxes, on account of some grievance which he im-
agines toe of sufficient
ti
consequence to justify his con -
duct—if he refused the payment of taxes, what right ha,
he to enforce use payment of any other demand on
who think perlia partea
may have as good a grievance as
the Noble LoaaPtmoth.ey
possible jtistify their refusal ?—(Heaa,
How was it hear.)
thatif the Government of any county
could be maintained,
of high station, men known
to society as supporters oifuhei's Majesty's Government, held
such principles as these"-T(Hear.) If they made decla-
rations such as these deka:orations, by which the bonds
of society would be bro y
oatsunder, and all the obliga
lions of the law set entirel
make their own estimate
of their own grievances, and take the remedy into
their own hands.—(Hear, hear to
though he opposed the Bill before r his own part, al-
it was passed—
liough e considered it a crying grieean
cest--yet he should

Ay implicit obodience when it became law. He should not re
wt to any such measures as those contemplate] by tht
't-ohle Lord, and he heartily wished the predictions of himself
,nd friends would titri ma' ft, he incorrect. They wert
n the eve of a perilous experiment, and it could not le
!enied that it was the duty of the Executive C;overnmen•
a diminish the extent of th- (linger as much as possMe
\lnch depended on the first general election under thi-
; and he hoped ti, election would not be proceeded
-o until they had first passed those accompanying measures
')y which the dangers of the change might be in some de-
gree guarded against. There was a clause in the Bill
giving the Government the power of dissolving Parlii-
tnent without the previous passing of these measures. Btit
this was done in order to provide against the demise of the
Crown. He trusted, therefore, that the Boundary Bit
would be duly pissed, and that the votes would be duly
registered. Indeed, if it were otherw's', never would a
,!reater fraud have been committed on Parliament, since
he and many other Members had consented to the passing
of the Bill on that expre's understanding. It would be ex-
ceedingly dangerous, in the present state of excitement,
to cal into action the new right of voting, without the
passing of these previous checks. Indeed, in the present
state of the country, he thought it would be productive of
the most serious calamities. The character of all future

measures depended on the character of the new Parliament.
Let the Noble Lord take the course which he might think
most conducive to the speedy passing of those measures,
and he assured him that no one on that side of the House
would throw any factious obstacle in his way. Above all,
he felt it his duty to call the attention of Lis Majesty's
Government to the continued existence of these Political
Associations. It was quite cleat that the Unions had no
intention of dissolving ; they intended to continue their
existence for the purpose of extorting further advantages.
He had heard it said that this Bill was to be accepted as a
final and satisfactory measure. The Hon. Gentleman
behind him (Mr. Hume), the Member for the metropolitan
county, had himself said the same thing; yet he declared
only a few nights back, in reference to the 101. franchise,
that, give him but that and he would soon extort the 5/.
—(Hear, hear.) This was the principle on which the
Political Unions proceeded. What man interested in the
well-being of the country could advocate the existence of
these Political Associations, whose object and desire was
to control the right of voting. He understood that there
was no intention on the part of Government to interfere
with these Political Unions; but they expressed their con-
fident hope in the good sense of the people for their sup-
pression. But if the Political Unions made their sittings
permanent, if they obtained the control over the right of
voting conferred by the Bill—whatever Hon. Gentlemen
might think of the form of society undar which we had
lived for the last fifty years—i❑ his opinion there was no
party in the State whose domination could be so intolerable
as that which was to come. He hoped that his Ma-
jesty's Government would have sufficient confidence in
themselves—but he hoped they would have sufficient con-
fidence in the good sense of the people of England—and
if they were disappointed in their expectations of that good
sense, he hoped they would have sufficient confidence in li
the good sense of the Legislature and the strength of the
constitutional powers, to vindicate the authority of the
law, and rescue them from the wretched and degraded
tyranny ender which they would otherwise be compelled
to live.—( Cheers front the Opposition.) By the King's
Speech, made at the opening of the Session, the ministers
were in some measure pledged to this. Iu this Speech
his Majesty says, " Sincerely attached to our free Consti-
tution, I never can sanction any interference with the le-
gitimate exercise of those rights which secure to my people
the privilege of discussing and making known their griev-
ances ; but in respecting these rights, it is also my duty to
prevent combinations, under whatever pretext, which
in their form and character are incompatible with all re-
gular government, and are equally opposed to the spirit
and to the provisions of the law; and I know that I shall
not appeal in vain to my faithful subjects, to second my
determined resolution to repress all illegal proceedings, by
which the peace and security of my dominions may be
endangered." They were, then, about to give their final
assent to that Bill which was said to be the chief cause
and justification of Political Unions. With the cause,
then, the effect ought also to cease ; and he would call
upon the House to consider, before the separation of this
Parliament, the propriety of redeeming the pledges placed
in the mouth of his Majesty's Ministers, and to put an end
to the proceedings, the continuance of which, under any
form, are inconsistent with all good government, and op-
posed alike to the provisions and spirit of the law, and
to give that protection to property and liberty which is
quite incompatible with the continuance of those Associ-
ations.—(Cheers.)

Mr. STANLEY and Lord MILTON rose together, hut
the former gave way.
Lord MILTON said, that after the allusions made to
him by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and subse-
quently by the Right Hon. Baronet, he felt himself bound
to make some observations in reply. It was perhaps a
common failing of humanity to magnify the importance of
an existing crisis. He did not mean to deny the state-
ment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, nor should he
retract that statement.—(Hear.) It had been the opi-
nion of persons most deeply read in the Constitution of
this country, and in the philosophy of Government itself,
that questions may arise when individuals are no longer
hound by the strict letter of the law.—(Cheers.) It was
admitted that such a question might arise, and that a man
might, under such circumstances, act in violation of the
otherwise established principles of the law. It was true,
that persons were apt to magnify the importance of the
existing crisis; but in his opinion such a crisis would then
arrive, which ought to be resisted hy means which be
should not call legal, because the case was beyond the pale
of law. If that principle was not admitted, then the
House of Brunswick sat upon the throne of these realms
contrary to law.—(Loud cries of Hear.) What was the
Revolution of I6SS but a violation of law? Under these
extraordinary circumstances, men act according to the
dictates of their own conscience, according to the necessity
the case, and not according to the strict rules of law. He
hoped that crisis had now passed away. The question
was one of a peculiar nature, and though he did not deny
the strict right of the House of Lords to interfere with it,
he considered such interference very imprudent.—( Hear.)
They ought to have exercised the greatest delicacy not to-
wards that House merely, but towards the people at large.
As a body, the Houseof Lords were not, in his opinion, 'in-
terested in the question, though many individuals of that
House were, as borough proprietors, most materially jute-
rested.—(Hear, hear.) [He then proceeded to enter into
an analysis of the votes of the Peers, by which it appeared
that of tile Peers created prior to the accesision of Geo. IJI.
the great majority was in favour of the kill.] Since that
time and prior to 1800, the Peers for and against were
nearly equal ; so that the majority was composed prin-
cipally of the clerical and representative Peers, Under
those circumstances he considered the Ministry quite jus-
tifitd in the advice which they gave the Crown.—(Cheers.)
Mr. STANLEY was glad he had given way to his No-
ble Friend, though he deeply regretted some of the senti-
ments which he had expressed, and differed from them as
widely as it was possible for one man to differ from ano-
ther.—(Hear, hear.) Discussions on abstract questions
ought to be particularly avoided by the House of Commons
—(Hear.) If there was one subject which was more in-
tricate than another, and which it was impossible to bring
under discussion as an abstract question, it was the point
at which resistance became justifiable, and when men be-
came absolved from all the obligations of law.—(Hear.)
With tegard to the House of Lords, he could not admit
that they ought not to have interfered, more especially on
a question on which the balance of the different powers in
the State so naturally depended ; and if he atireed with
the Right Hon. Baronet in his expression of regret at the
difference of opinion which existed between the two
Houses, he should not be precluded from saying that the
difference arose on such a point as rendered justifiable and
necessary the exercise of an equally constitutional power
—another branch of the Legislature—to restare the balance
between the two parties in the nation.—(Cheers.) He
was not now going to argue the rights of the House of
Lords ; they were fully admitted ; but it did not, there-
fore, follow that they were to defeat and render nu-
gatory the powers of the other branch of the Legisla-
ture. If they were, then we should no longer be living
under a mixed Government, being under the stern rule of
an oligarchy.—(Loud cheers.)—At that rate, it would be
in the power of a band of Peers, by uniting together, to
obstruct the wl,ole working of the Constitution, and to
usurp the powers of the King and the Commons.—
(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that
if, after the passing of this Bid, and in consequence of its
passing, any person should be found so degraded as to accept
what had heretofore been considered an honour, and a
gracious distinction on the part of the Sovereign, he should
mark those men—He (with peculiar emphasis, which
drew down loud cheers)--he should point out those per-
sons, as persons with whom he should not sit—as persons
deserving his censure.—(Cheers, and a laugh.)
Sir E. SUGDEN made use of some strong expressions
of denial.

Mr. STANLEY—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
contradicts lee, and in no very courteous manner; but—
Sir E. SUGDEN asserted, in as strong a manner as he•
possibly could, that he had never made use of any such
expressions.

Mr. STANLEY repeated that apparently no terms
could be used by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman whirl,
could sufficiently mark the strong feeling of reprobation

which he attached to those persons who might aceep'
uch honour.—(Loud cheers.) indeed he expressed him
self in a very short and pretty sentence.—(Hear, hear.)
fie should like to know how long the Learned Gentle-
man's veto on the ex ,rcise of the prerogative of the Crown
was to continue.—(Loud cheers.) He would suppose
hat the people had endured the sickening suspense of their
Hog deferred hopes to the utmost limit of which human
endurance was capable ; and then he would ask the Hon.
and Learned Gent!eman opposite, and he would ask the
Right Hon. Baronet, how much longer they thought the
exercise of the Royal Prerogative ought to be deferred ?
Rut, to pass from topics of that nature to others of graver
import, be would come to the charge preferred against
the Government by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
vhieh amounted to nothing less than this—that they hid
wen guilty of promoting the run for gold which had been
nade against the Bank, and the withdrawal of deposits
ruin the savings-banks. He could scarcely believe it
,ossible that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant to
onvey that the Government were instrumental in pro
tieing those effects.
Sir E. B. SUGDEN—I stated these occurrences as the
consequences of their actions.
Mr. STANLEY—The consequences of their actions !
Now, he would contend that the Hon. and Learned Gen-
leman had made it a matter of grave charge against them,
though he was now pleased to soften down the expression
into " the consequences of their actions." The fact was,
that, lnring the time when the present Administration
was out of power and the country full of apprehension that
the lion. and Learned Gentleman, the Right Hon. Baronet
and their friends might come into office, the people of the
country thought that their money was not safe, and hence
the run upon the Bank for gold—(Cheers)—and did not
both the Hon. Gentleman and the Right Hon. Baronet
know that the events to which he was alluding, not only
produced the run upon the Bank of England and upon
the Savings'-Banks, but also greatly depreciated English
as well as foreign Government Securities? Did not the
apprehension that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
might come into power, and the expectation of a generai
war consequent upon that apprehension, produce a depre•
ciation which for a long time past had not been equalled?
If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman doubted that, he
might bring in a Bill for the purpose of preventing in fu-
ture the depreciation of public securities through the ope-
ration of public events. How could it for a moment be
imagined that an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, possess-
ing the experience which belongs to him (Sir E. B. Sug-
den), could suppose that the present Ministers of the
Crown were to blame for that decline in the value of the
public funds which arose out of causes over which they
could not by possibility exercise any control ?
Sir E. B. SUGDEN—I never said any such thing.
Mr. STANLEY—When the Hon. and Learned Gen-

tleman can prove that those things could not and ought
not to affect the public credit, then, and not before, could
he with any show of justice or consistency make the
charge which he preferred against his Majesty's Govern-
ment.

Sir E. B. SUGDEN again denied the statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Cries of " Order, order.")
Mr. STANLEY—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
would have an opportunity of explaining when he (Mr.
Stanley) had concluded the few observations with which
he meant to trouble the House. The Right Hon. Baronet
had referred to some newspapers, and endeavoured t)
affix the same responsibility upon Government with re-
spect to them, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
sought to establish with respect to the rise or fall in the
public securities. Ile bad alluded to a particular paper,
and no doubt it was a journal which often obtained infor-
mation previously known to only a few; but could such a
fact warrant the assertion, that that newspaper spoke the
sentiments of the Government, even though it might ob-
tain its information from persons connected with the Go-
vernment ? If, however, there was one paper more than
another which was distinguished for hostility to his Noble
Friend at the head of the Government, that was the
publication in question. For what might appear in that
paper, it was rather hard to hold the Government of the
country responsible, when the fact was not to be disputed
that so far from giving efficient support to the measures
of Government, it was marked by the most decided and
rarely ceasing hostility to the head of that Government.
—(Cheers.) He would now notice some other charges
which had been brought against other members of his
' Majesty's Government. His Noble Friend near him
had been charged with having vindicated the display
of the tricolour flag in the presence of the Sovereign dur-
ing the excitement, as it was alleged, which arose out of
the Reform Bill. A short reference to facts would place
that accusation on its true footing. In the first place,
the day on which the exhibition was said to have taken
place was in the latter end of the month of November,
in the year 1830 ; and it was not for three months
afterwards—namely, on the Ist of March, 1831—that
the Reform Bill was introduced. It was therefore impos-
sible to establish any connexion between the two events.
There remained, however, one other fact to lie mentioned,
which he had just learned from an Hon. Friend near him,
which was, that there was no tricolour flag in the case at
all—(Loud cheers)—but, on the assumption that there
had been, his Noble Friend treated its display in the only
way in which, with any justice, it could be treated—not
as an insult to the Sovereign, but very much to the con-
trary, as regarded any constitutional Alonarch. It was
merely intended as an expression of the ligitiznate admira-
tion shared by the whole British people—an admiration
not at the time disclaimed by the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite—of the noble struggle successfully maintained by
a great people against an oppressive and unendurable ty-
ranny.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend, on the occasion to
which he was alluding, had truly told them that the
people of England were not democratic—that they knew
the value of the Constitution which they possessed, and
that to call them the advocates of democracy was to pro-
nounce upon them one of the grossest calumnies that could
be uttered against the people of England. It could not be
forgotten that at the time of the overthrow of the late
French Government, it was universally felt throughout
England that the then Administration of this country
were favourable to the ancient order of things, and ad-
verse to the new. With that imputation resting on
cheat they abandoned office. He did not wish to re-
criminate ; but he could not, when the Right Honour.
able Baronet talked of letting loose a torrent, re-
frain from reminding the House, that those who now
used this language in censure and condemnation had them-
selves the power, which they declined to exercise, of per-
mitting those waters to flow off in single and separate
ch :lane's, one by one ; instead of which they restrained
and dammed them up, till, by becoming united, they
formed one vast and resistless current. Then, when they
felt the ►wound on which they stood tottering beneath them,
they secured their own escape, and left to another set of
workmen to throw wide those flood-gates which they had
neither the power to keep closed, nor the courage to open
in due time.—(Cheers. ) Was Reform the only source
which they dammed up ? Had it not been the practice of
the Right Hon. and Hon. Gentlemen who now occupied
seats on the other side of the House, from the moment they
first attained power, to unite together as a party to keep
all close as long as they possibly could ? In that they
acted consistently, and upon that principle they acted un-
til they could act no longer. Would any man tell him that
a calm inquiry into the state of the Church property might
not have been attended with the most beneficial results,
had it been entered upon some ten, twelve, or fifteen years
age ? He, for one, admitted that it might have been be-
neficial.—(Cheers from Sir R. Peel.) Did the Right
Hon. Baronet also admit that truth ?

Sir R. PEEL—I nearly remember your speech.
Mr. STANLEY said he objected to the animus which
appeared to have governed their proceedings. All that lie
said on the occasion to which the Right Honourable Bart.
alluded was, that he was anxious for inquiry, and that any
proposition for the appointment of a Committee or Com-
mission should have his full snpport ; but there was ri:r
disposition towards inquiry on the part of his Majesty s
Government of that day ;—their wish evidently was to
let everything alone—" Don't stir it," was their motto ;
and it was thus that in 1823, they introduced upon the
subject of slavery a set of resolutions, the sole object of
which was to preserve things in the condition in which
they had found them—their rule at all times appeared to
be to pnt off the evil day as long as possible. It was then
in the abuses which had crept into our representative
system—it was not alone in our Church establishment—
it was not alone in our foreign policy, but in every branch
and department of our public affairs, that they had
la-
boured, and laboured successfully, to keep off the day of
reckoning. Hence, then, were the present Administration
left to deal with an accumulation of difficulties for which
they were solely indebted to their predecessors. He fully
admitted that he viewed with regret the circumstances
which hail taken place in the other House of Parliament ;
but the advisers of the Crown had no alternative. It
had been alleged on the other side, that before the se-
cond reading they ought to have been prepared with their
creation of Peers : that would surely not have been agree-
able to the principles upon which they had at all times
acted ; they felt it to be their duty to put off to the last
moment a measure towards which they felt some repug-
nance—they felt that it would be their duty to put it off
until no atrernative should be left them ; fur what would
be the situation in which they must stand before the
country, if, after the creation of Peers, they were still not
able to carry the Bill ? So long as a hope remained to
them, they refrained from urging their advice for a creation

of Peers; but when it became evident, from the success of
a motion made in the Committee in the other House, that
the conduct of the Bill would fall into other hands, and
those the most adverse to the measure, or at best but half
upporters of it, could any reasonable man doubt the cours.
which they ought to pursue ? Was there a man of sane
mind in the whole country who entertained a rational
doubt as to what were the intentions of the Noble Lords
Ind Right Hon. Gentlemen who had, up to that time, as
well as at the present moment, stood forward as the most
strenuous opponents of the measure? Had the present
Government of the King taken any other course than that
which they had pursued, nothing could be more indispu-
table than that they would have forfeited the confidence of
'he country, as well as betrayed the trust reposed in them
their Sovereign. The Right Hon. Gentleman then
irneeeded to argue the importance of proceeding in the
l.ords' Committee in the order of the clauses exactly as the
Bill had been sent tip from the Commons, and to defend
himself from the imputation of having at any time ex-
pressed opinions of a contrary tendency; anything that
'night seem to bear an interpretation of that kind could only
he founded upon a confusion of ideas respecting the two
different speeches which he had delivered on the subject of
Reform ; but then they had reference to two separate
Bills—one of which made it indispensable that the Mem-
bers of the House of Commons should be changed—the
other, that they should he unchanged, and that made the
difference between the two measures, which rendered it
important that there should be no departure from the ori-
ginal order of proceeding. He next adverted to the de-
claration of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that he re-
ceived the Reform Bill as one important instalment of the
sum of enfranchisement due to the people of England.
He regretted that such were thy sentiments of that Hon.
Member. His own views were altogether different; he
received the present measure of Reform as a liquidation in
full of all that the people had a right to expect, for so
extensive a measure would certainly not have been intro-
duced by the present Government had they not regarded
it as a final measure. He acknowledged with satisfaction
the declaration that no material opposition would be offered
to the Boundaries Bill, for he deemed it of great import-
ance that that measure should come into full operation
before Parliament was dissolved, so that, as a whole, that
great measure might be rendered complete, to which he
looked as the means of establishing the authority of Par-
liament, the Prerogatives of the Crown, and the liberties
of the people.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL denied that be had ever recommended
the creation of Peers antecedently to the second reading of
the Bill. He also stated that that Commission had been
appointed to inquire into the state of Church property;
and in consequence of their Report the Unions had been
dissolved, and the Tithe Composition Act introduced.
Mr. CHOKER thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for
his dissent from the principles laid down by the Noble
Lord near him, and for the denial he hail given to the
hopes of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. He also
thanked him for the support be bad promised against
further innovation—for the aid he had promised to stem
that torrent which he (Mr. C.) believed to be irresistible.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had assured them that all
alarm of an extension of the democratic principle among
the people was vain and unfounded ; and maintained that
the people were not democratically but monarchically in-
clined. He (Mr. Croker) certainly believed firmly that
democracy was on the surface rather than that it pene-
trated into the substance of public opinion. But then, on
the other hand, he believed that the class of the people
who had been the loudest advocates for the Bill, those who
composed the Political Unions—those who had outraged
the law and menaced the Government, were united in two
great objects—Reform and degeneracy. He asked Hon.
Members who doubted this, whether they had read the
placards on the walls—whether they had read the resolu-
tions which the different Political Unions had promulgated
—and if so, whether they could deny that the wildest
dreams of democracy were not mixed up with the wishes
for Reform which the individuals to whom he alluded had
expressed? The sacred persons of the Royal Family, the very
existence of the Crown itself, had been implicated in the
popular discussions on Reform. He begged not to be mis-
understood. He was far from saying that there was no
friend of Reform who slid not desire the overthrow of the
existing Constitution. It was impossible that he could say
so, after hearing the speech which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had just made ; it was impossible that the could say
so when he saw on the other side of the House so many
persons who owed their honours and estates to that consti.

tution. But what he did say was, that the most active
and powerful supporters of Reform out of doors carried
their principles to an extent which must terminate in the
subyersion of Monarchy, and the establishment of a pure
democracy on its ruins. There was no part of the
conduct of his Majesty's present Government which he
more deeply lamented than their conduct towards the Po-
litical Unions. Nor was that conduct free from the
marks of duplicity, as well as of neglect of duty. They
might for a time check the eruptions of those volcanic
Unions, but he very much feared that the earthquake
would be stifled only for a time, and that eventually Mo-
narchy in this country would totter to its fall. Even at
the present moment the Political Unions, by the mere
change of a word, were about to become legally organised.
They were about to call themselves Electoral Unions, and
to assume the functions of cont:uctors of elections through-
out the country; pointing out to the voters of popular
places the persons whom they thought best qualified to
sit in the House of Commons. And this system was to
last for ever. L would be a perpetual circle of political
excitement. Was it too much to believe that these Unions
would succeed in obtaining a bona fide and permanent in-
fluence over the Government of the country ? Let those
who thought so recollect what occurred in France at the
period of the Revolution ; and recollect the division of
Paris into electoral sections, which, having set them-
selves above all law, first controlled the Government, and
in a short time destroyed it. lie would on this subject
appeal to an authority which he supposed would he allowed
to be intitled to respect by all who admired high public
character obtained in the establishment of national inde-
pendence, but which authority pointed out the dangers
which might beset constituted order even in a refublie.
The great Washington, in the year )796, when, as it
were, taking leave of the American nation as a public man
wrote a letter, in which he warned his countrymen of the
great danger to which even a popular state was liable front
political associations. Having observed that when a Go-
vernment was once established, it was: the duty of every
individual to obey it, Washington thus proceeded
- • " • '

" All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combi-
nations and associations, under whatever plausible character,
with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the
regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities,
are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal ten-
dency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial
and extraordinary force--to put in the place of the delegated
will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful
and enterprising minority of the community ; and, according
to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public
administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous
projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and
wholesome plans, digested by common councils, and modified
by mutual interests. However combinations or associations of
the above description may, now and then, answer popular ends,
they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become po-
tent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled
men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and
to usurp for themselves the reins of Government ; destroying
afterwards the very enemies which have lifted them to unjust
dominion."
The whole letter was indeed a lesson of practical wis-
dom ; and he wished his Majesty's Ministers, if not too late,
would apply themselves to the study of it. Up to the
present period England had been the anchor of the social
security of Europe. Equally exposed to the deluge of demo-
cracy during the existence of Republicanism in France,
and to the deluge of despotism when Buonaparte obtained
supreme authority in that country, the hopes of social
order had been preserved ill England as in an ark, until
both those dangers had subsided. But that which his
Majesty's present Government was about to do,was to con-
vert that ark into a fireship. All who contemplated what
was passing in Belgium, in Holland, in Portugal, in Spain,
in Russia, must know that the people of those countries
were looking with intense anxiety to England.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) The Republican or Movement party through.
out Europe looked on the passing the Reform Bill as a
great advance, and, like the Hon. Member for Middlesex,
hailed it as the precursor of a greater. Looking, there-
fore, not only at ourselves, but at the other nations of
Europe, was it possible to believe that if those nations
became democracies, we could maintain the- monarchy,
the aristocracy, and all the ancient and feudal institutions
which we were accustomed to revere? Adverting to the
Boundary Bill, he (Mr. Croker) observed, that although
he should feel it his duty to state his objections to the way
in which that Bill was to operate, it was not his intention
to protract his remarks upon it, or to carry his opposition
so far as to interpose any serious obstacle to the passing of
the measure. Indeed, he considered the Reform Bill and
the Boundary Bill as inseparable ; for, if the people of
England were assembled for a general election after the
Reform Bill was
passed, and before the Boundary Bill
was passed, and therefore before it was determined who
had the right of voting, the most disastrous consequences
might be the result. He could not conclude with-
out solemnly declaring, that nothing which had occurred
during the discussions on the measure and altered the opi-
nion which he entertained of it at the first moment of its
introduction. He believed that the Hon. Member for
Middlesex was perfectly correct in his prognostics, lie

' 'relieved that principles were afloat which it would be irn-
, Reign& to check. He believed that the Noble Lord and
he Right Hon. Gentleman opposite were sincere in their
lesire to put, as it were, a seal upon the bond ; but he
dso believed that the words of the bond were so exten-
, ve that no seal would be effeetive ; and that, as the
Hon. Member fir Middlesex had said, the Reform Bill
vas but the commencement of a career of change. What
had occurred since the original introduction of the Bill
confirmed him in that apprehension. The first edition of
the Rill had been received with approbation, even by the
most violent Reformets. They had since had two suc-
cessive editions of it; each having a further and a further
tendency to a democratic character.—(Cries of " No,
ao.") That negation should not provoke him to enter
further into the subject than to say that such was his opi-
iion. Indeed, the argument of the friends of the Bill
had been—" See what your opposition comes to; the
second Bill is worse than the first, and the third than the
•econd." Seeing, therefore, that every alteration was in
t democratic spirit, and seeing the prevalence of that
spirt throughout Europe, be could not but apprehend
the ultimate subversion of the Constitution, and the
establishment first of a democracy, and then (in
the due course of events) of a despotism ; and, after a
sad, and he hoped not a bloody interval, the re •construc-
i ion of the admirable system so injuriously assailed.
Colonel TORRENS thought that the apprehension
which the Right Hon. Gentleman entertained from the
prevalence of a democratic spirit was entirely groundless.
The increase of knowledge among the people was a con-
servative principle that would effectually lead to the se-
curity of property and order. To whom were they about
to give power? Not to an ignorant and illiterate, but to
an intelligent and instructed people—to a people among
whom knowledge was so diffused that they were perfectly
sensible of the evils that must result from constant agita-
tion. Undoubtedly, he did not believe that the present
Bill would be a permanent measure. He looked upon it
as the means of obtaining a magnificent end—as the means
of securing a good Government, a cheap Government,
and the universal prosperity of the people. The Bill must
he operative, or it would be valueless. If it were to be
regarded only as a paper on the table, or as a record in the
Statute-book, of what use would it be ? The people
hailed it, because it would afford the means of equal taxa-
tion and of equal laws. It would tend to prevent the
imposition of any taxes but such as were necessary, and
the enactment of any laws but such as were beneficial.—
Under the operation of the Bill the people would endeavour
to render this country as prosperous as the United States
of North America now were.
Mr. PRAED, after briefly adverting to what had just
fallen from the Hon. and Gallant Member, proceeded to
observe, that when it was first insinuated in that House,
and insinuated amidst incredulity and derision, that there
were means by which the indisposition of the House of
Lords towards the Bill might be counteracted, he had re-
mained silent. When that topic was renewed, he and the
opponents of the Bill had again remained silent upon it;
apprehensive that, by the agitation of the subject, the very
evil which they apprehended might be created. But now,
when all their caution and all their silence had proved inef-
fectual, they had at least this satisfaction, that although
they could no longer avoid the crime, they were at liberty
to denounce :the criminals. There was nothing now to
withhold him from the declaration, that when history
came to suns up the characters and acts of British states-
men, no blacker page would be found in the record than
that which related to the proceedings that had led to the
passing of this Bill. When the Noble Earl now at the
head of his Majesty's Government came into office, it was
under certain declarations ; one of which was, that the
measure of Reform in the Commons House of Parliament,
which in the heat, and perhaps, the rashness of youth, he
had advocated, he was not prepared now to offer to the
country ; and that he would not propose any measure cal-
culated to disturb the other estates of the realm. Now
when the Noble Lord introduced such a Bill as this, it must
have occurred to him that it could never be pressed without
rousing such a resistance in the House of Peers and

lae _ aristocracy, as must increase that disaffection o

the lower towards the upper classes, which the Noble
Earl professed it to be his intention to remove.
On the motion for the second reading of the Bill
in the other House, by what argument did the
Noble Earl endeavour to induce that House to agree to
that motion ? By observing, that whatever objections
might exist to any of the details of the measure, those
details could be altered only in the Committee. It was
true that the Noble Earl admitted he should unequivocally
object to those alterations ; but then he added, it was for
the Committee, and not for him, to decide upon them.
Now what was the impression produced, and evidently
intended to be produced, by this statement ? It was evi-
dently made for the purpose of inducing the other House
of Parliament to agree to the principle of the Bill, on the
understanding that if they thought proper they might
amend the details in Committee. The House of Lords,
having gone into a Committee, did make certain altera-
tions in the arrangement of the Bill. Whether those al-
terations were justifiable or not, he would not stop to in-
quire. But if the Noble Earl, when be entered upon of-
fice, and when he gave those pledges to which he (Mr.
Praed) had already adverted, had foreseen the course he
subsequently thought proper to pursue, that Noble Earl
had been guilty of the grossest perfidy.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) He did not charge the Noble Earl with this per-
fidy. He spoke hypothetically. Nay, be was convinced
that the Noble Earl did not originally contemplate the
course which he had since taken, but that he had been
dragged on, one step after another, by a power which he
could not resist, by a power which he himself wished to
put down, by a power which now menaced all the insti-
tutions of the country with destruction. The Hon. Mem-
ber, in alluding to the advice given to his Majesty respect-
ing a large creation of Peers, proceeded to say that the
present Ministers attempted to justify such a gross abuse
of the prerogative of the Crown, upon the plea of the
importance of the occasion, but that hereafter any situa-
tion would be deemed sufficiently important to justify such
a measure, by those whose political existence depended

upon it.
Air. HIJAIE remarked that the House had met for the
purpose of considering the amendments to the Reform Bill,
and the debate had hitherto been about every thing else.
He professed that he was not able to understand the
speeches of the Hon. Members below him. The. Hon.
Member (Mr. Praed) had talked of a crime, and he had
tb-nouncetl a m iminal ; he would be glad to know what
was the crime, and who was the criminal ? He could
not imagine—he did not understand what the Hon. Gen-
tleman meant, though he could compliment him on the
solemn tone which he had assumed. Neither could he rout
prehend what the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Croker)
meant by democratic waves and the deluge of despotism.
He differed, too, with the Hon. Member (Mr. Praed)
that the account of this period would form a black page
in our history ; he thought, on the contrary, that the de-
scription of the events of the late ten glorious days, and
the glorious moral triumph of the people of England,
would form the brightest page in our history. He de-
fended the conduct of the Ministers, and maintained that
they deserved the confidence of the people, and accused the
Right Hon. Gentleman and his friends for attempting to
take the helm of Government, and shrinking from the
danger. In opposition to the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
R. Peel), who had read the King's speech, and asked
why Government had not, in conformity with his Ma-
jesty's Proclamation, put down the Political Unions, he
contended that they were utterly undeserving of blame for
not having done so. Talk (cried the Hon Member) of
the King's Proclamation ! It was just worth what the ink
and paper were worth.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
He repeated this. No proclamation could in these
days override the ltw. As to what had been urged re-
specting the Reform Bill as a final measure, he could only
say that he would not give a pin for the Bill if they were
to stop here. The object of the Bill was to get an honest
House of Commons—he meant politically honest. From
such a House they might expect those benefits which they
could never Lope to attain from a House of Commons
which did not represent the feelings of the people. He
hoped the Bill would give satisfaction; he was ready to
give it a fair trial; but if he found that it did not give a
representation sufficiently popular, he would come forward
and call for a diminution of the franchise to 51. or even a
lower sum.

Mr. PRAED expressed his wonder that the lion.
Member for Middlesex, who was so clear in understand-
ing, and himself so perspicuous in expression, should not
have been able to comprehend the very plain words which
lie (Mr. Praed) had used. He then proceeded to state, in
explanation, that the crime to which he had alluded, was
the destructive extension of the House of Peers, and the
criminal he denounced was the men who had advised that
extension. For the rest, he hail only to repeat, that if at
the time when the Noble Lord stated that in the event of
the ether House coming into collision with a majority of
the people, he was determined to stand or fall by his ol-
der, he entertained the idea of advising a measure which
would extinguish that order, and of introducing a Bill o
Reform wilder and more sweeping than the wildest theo-
ries of his youth, his conduct had been most base anti
perfidious.

Mr. CROKER observed, that since he had left offict
nothing had occurred which afforded a pretext for an
charge against him, of either participating in any attempt
to seize the helm or of shrinking from danger.
Mr. C. GRANT praised the temper in which the de-
bates on Reform had been hitherto conducted, and said it

ust have gained the applause of the- nation on both
l.rs of the House ; hut he rsgretted to sees that they had
.w arrived at the period of deeenerating into personalities.
he Hon. Member (Mr. Praed) talked of a crime, and de-
,ounced a criminal. He asked the House, he should
.) ask the country, what was the crime, and who was
'le criminal ?—( Loud cheers.) The criminal was Earl
;rey—(Loud cheers)—and the period .chosen to denounce
in was that period of his political life when he had cal,
A the Reform Bill—at the close of an existence of
seater splendour than that of the greatest man in our
istery. Let him even be such a criminal—letlam even
e covered with such ignominy—what was the crime of
hich the Noble Earl had been giti'ty ? It was thia-a-
hat be had carried the Reform Bill in its present state.
What was Lis crime ? Why, that in a period of darkness
and disaster, when half of England was in a state of is,.
sorrection—when the men who held the helm had rip
rioquished it in despair—when the people were arraying
themselves against them—at that time when the voice of
England summoned the Noble Eat I from his retirement
and because then, and under such circumstances, he had the
courage to obey the mandate of his Sovereign—because,
and possessing the talent, he had had the moral courage
incl the moral honesty to take office under certain pledges
and because having so accepted office, he had been true to
those pledges ; it was because of ail these things, that he
was now accused of crime.—( Hoar, hear.) Had he beau
false to those pledges, they would not now have heard it
his " crime," far other would have been time sounds that
would have been uttered about Wm. These, however,
were the glorious crimes of which the Noble Earl had
been guilty—that he had stood forward to save his country.
and that he had redeemed the pledges he had given.---;
(Hear, hear.) From the accusation of such crime., it
must be confessed he could not defend himself.—(Hear;
hear.) But then it seemed that the Noble Lord had been
guilty of perfidy—what was the perfidy of which he was
accused? It was, that in the House of Lords he Lad
had the monstrous folly to declare that he thought the
Reform Bill necessary to the peace and tranquillity of the
country, to the prosperity of the people, and to the ses
(unity of the Throne ; and that having that belief, he Was
prepared to stand or fall by that measure, and to use.
every effort to secure its adoptioM That was the accusa-
tion against him ; and further, that having found he was.;
unable to carry it, be had relinquished office, which might:
have charms for others, but had none for him if it waia
only to be preserved at the expense of not perform-
ing the promises he had made.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Then they were told that the opposition in the House
of Lords did not affect anything but the details of the
Bill. Details, indeed; if they were only details that Could
be of no consequence, why was there so much importance
attached to getting rid of them ?—(Hear.) He would
tell the House what the other side would have rejoiced
to see. They would have rejoiced to see those details one
by one conceded, till disfranchisement ceasing to be a lead
ing principle of the Bill, had become only a sequel and
corollary to it ; and when it had become so, it might have
been admitted only as an act of special grace and favour.
—(Hear, hear.) Day by day they would have the Noble
Earl and his Government concede the true prisciples of
the Bill, though disguised under the name of details, until,
the Bill would have been no longer an advantage to tht.‘
people, but an advantage gained over them.—(Hear.)—
They would have had these small impel ceptible concessions
hourly repeated, till the Government would have mound
themselves in a totally new sphere, insulted by those who
had dragged them through those calamities, and justly
condemned by that people, whose honour, honesty, and
high faith had reposed on their sense of duty, and on the
purity of their conscientious discharge of that
(Cheers.) For the mere mockery of conciliation, they
were desired to enjoy the happiness of sacrificing the in-
terests of Englishmen, and were now condemned for not
having done so. Thank God, from that happiness they
had been preserved.—(Cheers.) Yet, for having beets so
preserved, they were now to be charged with crime. From
that charge they appealed, and he felt that they should,
appeal successfully to their country and their conscience,.
Colonel SIBTHORPE observed, that the lion. Mem-
bers on the opposite side of the House spoke as if they
alone bad acted from conscientious motives, an assumption
which he begged leave to deny ; for those who opposed the
Bill had, be was sure, been actuated only by the most con-
scientious feelings. He doubted even whether. Hon.
Gentlemen on the other side of the House were not a little
disappointed at the Bill having passed as it had done
through the House of Peers ; and whether the Right Hort.
Gentleman did not regret that he was not nsw Earl o`
Inverness, ins'ead of Member for the county—(A laugh)
—and whether the Hon. Member was not disappointed at
not being Marquess of Marylebone ! and even the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, would not haves
had quite so long a face if he had now been flourishing its
the ether House. This Bill was not a final tneasure.
The Hon. Member for Middlesex declared that he was not
satisfied with it, but wished Reform to go further ; and
there was little doubt that the Hon. and Learned Meant). e
for Kerry would be glad to see the House of Lords
lowered and trampled on. He was sure that if they ease
them, according to the old saying, rope ennuaih, they would
hang themselves—not that he wished to see the Noble
Lord opposite (Althorp) suspended, except from his office.
--(A laugh.) He had opposed this Bill throughout,
because he thought it was not for the good of tie people;
and if the Hon. Member for Middlesex brought in another
Bill to remedy this, he should be willing to sit by rite Hon,
Member's side and teach him, not how to destroy, but hot,
to restore the Constitution.

Sir R. INGLIS should not have spok4n, but for the
observations which had recently fallen from the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, who, in one part of his speeen, had
used the expression, " Dragged us through those calami-
ties." When he heard such expressions used, much as be
esteemed his Right Hon. Friend, and nauc: as he had
esteemed him for years, he must get up and observe upon
them. To whom were these expressions applied ? Did
his Right Hon. Frig nd mean that the Government of the
Duke of Wellington, or that of Mr, Canning, or that of
Lord Liverpool had dragged them through these cal Mai-
ties ? For if he meant any or all of these Governments,,
his Right Hon. Friend was the last man who should de-
nounce their acts, since for those acts he was responsible.;
as he had formed part of all those Governments. With
respect to the Bill itself, it was only regarded as the be.;
ginning of more serious changes. It was regarded as as
means, and not an end—and such was the opinion which
in private had been avowed to him by an Hon.and Learned
Friend of his. He hoped that opinion would be expressed
as he knew it was felt in that House, and then they woull
see what he stated was perfectly correct. He was sorry
to be obliged to believe this Bill had put an end to the
Constitution. When the Bill had passed the House of
Commons, it was spoken of as a Bill that must pass the
House of Lords, who were to he allowed no deliberative!
voice upon it ; and now that it had passed the Howe of,
Lords, he observed in a paper of the day the remark that,
" only a form" remained to make it law—in other words.,
that the assent of the Sovereign, which he had alway,
looked upon as of as great importance as that of either of,
the two branches of the Legislature, was a mere form—.
He again expressed his anticipations of evil from the nu 'a.'
sure.

Mr. C. GRANT thought that the House wouh) agrvt,
with him that the Hon. Baronet had most unjustly given
to the words he had tittered, a meaning that it was clew
they were ;never intended to hear—and had fastened on
that a charge for which there was no pretence. .The
Hon. Baronet had said that he (Mr. C. Grout) had cast
imputations upon former Governments, and had spoken of
them as dragging them through calamities. At first be had.
hardly recollected having used the words, for if they had
escaped him it was in the heat cf debate ; hut as far as he
could bring back the circumstances to his mind, he had,
used them after speaking of the situation in which the.
present Government would have been left, had they allowed.
themselves to yield up every principle of the Reform Bill
under the name of conceding unimportant details.—(Heare
hear.) In that sense alone he had used them.—(Hear,.
hear.) He appealed to the House, and even to the Hon.
Baronet himself, whether, that being the case, he had not,
been subjected to a most unjust aspersion ? He had not
made any charges whatever against former Governments..
On the subject of Reform he knew—and never hail
hesitated to avow it—(Hear, hear)— that he had changed
his opinion; he had changed it because of the changed
circumstances of the times, and of the advance of
knowledge of every kind among the people; but he had
never for a woment, throughout these debates,.
uttered the remotest aspersions on those who now held
those opinions which he had formerly entertained. His
change of opinion was not recent. He had stated it at
the time of the East Rettord question, full two years ago,
and had then said, that unless the motion then made was
carried, greater concessions must be granti:ll.—( Hear,
hear.), But for entertaining and avowing that opinionhemseilgalitcvhoaveerenninteernetdlir, hear)—if eeeupriorietoteifformation of tee
pre
he would hive
done it with any degree of surrender of that principle.
Sir R. INGLIS should not 'have itti4tifrlth.e charge God
he not believed that his Right Hon. .Friendliiiii,ipsd and
applied the expression as he stated, alicit'O one would
be more rejoiced than himself to. find that his, ight lion.
Friend had not subjected himself to the charge.
Mr. FANE made seine observations which were at
first inaudible in the gallery on account of the noise in tha
House. He then said that this ail removed their neigh
bour's landmarks. They ought to remember, the
" cursed is he who removes his neighbour's landmarks,"