The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-09 00:00:00

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OFFICERS IN THE INDIAN ARMY.

In reply to Col. STxxs,
Sir C. WOOD, who was most imperfectly heard, was
understood to say that there were some inequalities in the
service alluded to, and that the subject would be consi-
dered

'ESE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 9, 1859.

gentleman opposite of the results of meddling in the affairs
of other nations, and it should be remembered that p; revious
to 1850. England had interfered in the affairs of Italy. With
what result? The Italians had been encouraged, fla Ittered,
and betrayed, and if the hon. and learned member fo r Dun-
dalk was strictly correct in his statement the other night,
the name of the noble viscount was abhorred, and th,3 name
of the noble lord was detested in Italy. (Cheers.) l 3 to had
too much respect for his noble friends to wish their :names
to be abhorred or detested, and therefore he was at ixious
that if possible they should keep out of the conferene e. If
they went into a conference, what did they intend I o do ?
There was nothing very inviting in the present state of the
affairs of Italy; but if his noble friends went into a conft 3rence
upon those affairs they would go as the friends of Ital. y, and
in order to establish a better government in Italy. The, power
which held the quadrilateral was the roaster of Italy. Pd antua
and Verona were the keys of Italy. If they went in: to the
conference as the friends of Italy, and in favour of liberty,
were they prepared to abide by the programme of 11;4.:8—to
insist on the expulsion of Austria from Italy, and to join
with France to effect that purpose ; or would they bet satis-
fied with the compromise of an Austrian archduke,. a free
constitution, and an Italian army in Lombardy? 'What
would they be prepared to do with regard to thet Pope
and the States of the Church ? Were they pr spared
to resist the Pope as the head of an Italian Con! klera-
tion, or were they prepared to insist on the seculari; za
of the Papal States ? What would they do wit:. the
Duchies? Were they prepared to insist on Austria. and
France not being allowed to force the archdukes upon their
reluctant people? What were they prepared to do with re-
spect to the French occupation of Rome ? Were they pre-
pared to insist upon Italy being left to the Italians, and.the
French army withdrawn from Rome ? And with respect
to the Duchies there was this difficulty. It being in. ihe
original agreement that the archdukes were to be restored,
the Grand Duke of Tuscany had abdicated in favour of Ids
son, and that which might have been accepted as a compro-
mise could not be accepted, as the compromise had come too
soon. Every day brought a new difficulty. The state of
Italy painted in the columns of the daily papers was as a
seething cauldron, with more elements of evil and discord
than were ever known, and he hoped the Government would
not plunge this country into it, since it was improbable tho
result would be much for the good of Italy or of England .
(Hear, hear.) He wished to urge the Government not to
enter upon a conference on other grounds. There must be
one of two things. They either had confidence in the Em-
peror of the French or they had not. He thought the Go-
vernment's entering into the conference might be either
superfluous or dangerous. If they had confidence in the,
Emperor of the French let them be thankful they were not,
in the Italian mess, and keep out of it ; for the interests of
Italy and tfie freedom of Italy would be safe in his hands.
(Hear, hear.) But if, on the other hand, they had not
confidence in the Emperor of the French, if they dis-
trusted him, and did not, believe that he was anxious to
establish free government for Italy, how would they be
able to attain their object? (Hear, hear.) He asked
what the Government intended to do, supposing that in
this conference their views were not consulted. Were
they prepared to support those views by force, or did they
only intend to bring their moral influence to bear ? It had
been wittily, though somewhat irreverently, said that
Providence was on the side of large armies—it might be
added, when they were well commanded ; and this saying
was equally true of moral influence, which would always be
found on that side which could support it by the greatest
physical power. He had seen one of the proclamations of
the Emperor of the French, in which he said that during the
war in Italy France had manifested her moral influence upon
this question; but he wished to know whether her Majesty's
Government intended to back their views with reference to
Italy by force, or whether they would be satisfied with moral
influence ; for if the views of the Government were opposed
they might have to withdraw from the conference, and Italy
would again consider herself abandoned and betrayed. He
thought that, upon the grounds he had stated, the Govern-
ment ought to be very cautious before they engaged in any
conference,,upon the affairs of Italy. He was quite aware
that the views he had expressed might not meet with much
favour in that house, so far as regarded the question be-
tween Italy and Austria ; but he had stated his honest and
sincere convictions on this subject. He was prepared to hear
it said that he had no sympathy with Italy, that he was
hostile to France, aad that he was the advocate of Austrian
misrule. He might be allowed to 'say, however, that he
sympathised with Italy as much, perhaps, as any hon. mem-
ber of that house, and tha he would gladly see the people
of that beautiful country well governed, happy, prosperous,
and contented. Ho would go further, and would say that he
believed, perhaps, the best thing that could happen for the
security of the world and the good of this country was that
a united kingdom of It tly should be created, consisting of
25,000,000 people. (Hear, hear.) A right hon. friend of his
cheered that sentiment, but did any man believe that
such a thing was possible ? Was there anything in the cir-
cumstances of Italy that rendered it probable ? It was a
fairy vision and an agreeable dream, of the realisation of
which he saw no prospect. Would France allow it, or would
she aid in creating upon her frontier so powerful an empire
which would render the idea of making Italy a French
dependency an impossibility ? He disclaimed any hostility
to France. So far from entertaining any such feeling, he
looked upon the French alliance as necessary not only to the
well-being of both countries, but also to the advancement of
civilisation and the advantage of mankind in general ; but
he was not prepared to sacrifice everything to that alliance.
He was no advocate of Austrian misrule. He did not deny
the misdeeds of that empire ; he was ready to admit them ;
but he was not blind to the fact that Austria was our friend
and ally as well as France, and that it was essential to the
equilibrium of Europe, and to the safety of England, that
Austria should remain a great Power. (Hear.) It was not,
then, because he had no sympathy with Italy, because he
was hostile to France, or because he was the advocate of
Austrian misrule, that he expressed his views, unpopular
though they might be, upon this question. In his mind one
consideration was paramount to all others, and that was—
what is for the good of England? (Hear.) He believed it
was for the advantage of this country that we should abstain
as far as possible from any intervention in the affairs of
foreign nations. (Hear.) He did not see any benefit that
could arise from our interference either to Italy or to this
country; but he did see many dangers ahead—(hear)—and
he foresaw that by such a course we might involve our-
selves in complications and difficulties which we might have
cause to regret. It was- on these grounds that he urged
her Majesty's Government to be cautious how they went
into any conference with reference to these questions. He
did not wish to tie up their hands, but to leave them, as
British Ministers ought to be left, to the free exericse of
their discretion upon this subject, when that discretion was
to be exercised, not upon petty details, but upon general
questions of principle. If his noble friend saw cause for
going into this conference with any prospect of doing good,
and with the certainty that no danger would accrue to this
country,—although he (Lord Elcho) confessed he could not
conceive such a state of things;—if he would go into the
conference not in the spirit of a partisan, but of fairness and
impartiality;—if he would look to the interests of England as
well as to those of Italy ;—if he would engage in the confer-
ence, not as the Minister of Italy or of France, but as the Mi
nister of England, he for one would earnestly pray for his
success, and no one would more ardently desire that his
endeavours to give better government to Italy and greater
security to Europe might be crowned with success.
He begged to move,—" That an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, stating that in the opinion of this
house it would be consistent neither with the honour nor
dignity of this country, which throughout the late negotia-
tions had preserved a strict and impartial neutrality between
the contending Powers, and used its earnest endeavours to
prevent the outbreak of hostilities, to take part in any con-
ference for the purpose of settling the details of a peace the
preliminaries of which had been arranged between the
Emperor of the French and the Emperor of Austria.,'
Mr. HORSMAN seconded the motion.
Mr. h INGLAKE said he had undertaken to meet the
noble lord by. moving the previous question ; because he
humbly 'conceived the proposal thenoble lord had submitted
to the house was one which could not be appropriately vet
either by an affirmative or by a negative. He did not desire
to lay it down broadly that the proposition the noble lord
bad submitted to the house was unconstitutional. but he did
say that fir the House of Commons to advise herjMajesty
in place of her Majesty's accustomed advisers was to ex-
press strong distrust of the Ministry. If not actually a vote
of want of confidence, the resolution was so near an ap-
proach to it that no one who could assent to it would hesi-
tate to support a direct vote of want of confidence. Possibly
the resolution was brought forward with party objects ;
but if that were so, where was the party to back it up, the
opposition benches being empty ? (Hear.) If they looked
to the merits of the proposal it seemed to him inconceiv-
ably rash to attempt to lay down the policy that should or
should not be followed—not at this moment, but at some
weeks, or perhaps some months hence, and to define in
total ignorance of the circumstances that might prevail
when that policy was to be brought into operation. Three
weeks hence a state of circumstances might exist which
would induce the noble lord himself to go intothe congress;
yet if this motion were carried the hands of the Govern-
ment would be had, aid however much our taking part
in the deliberations might tend to the advantage of
Europe and the interests of peace, they would be debarred
from doing so. It appeared to him, therefore, that it would
be far better to adopt the old-fashioned constitutional
course of leaving her Majesty's ministers free to act as cir-
cumstances might require, and to hold them responsible to
parliament for the course they pursued. He concurred with
much that the noble lord had said in deprecation of the con-
gress; but, on the other hand, one of the reasons which the
noble lord had advanced against a congress—viz., the peri-
lous state of Italy—was one which might be used on the.
other side of the question ; because it was just possible that
by means of the congress a satisfactory solution of the diffi.
culty might be arrived at. He, however, perfectly agreed
with the noble lord when he deprecated our taking part in
the congress, on the ground that we should be likely to
enter it without authority. At the close of a general war a
congress of nations to settle territorial and other arrange-
ments was no doubt proper ; but in this case England had
not been belligerent, she had taken no part in the war, and
could not, therefore, appropriately negotiate the arrange-
ments for peace or for the disposal of the spoils of war.
There was another objection which he felt to entering into
this congress, viz., that England had not been generally suc-
cessful in congresses. After the congress of Vienna, all
Europe was made merry at the blunders of the Marquis of
Londonderry; arid he could not lo)k with pride or satisfac-
tion at the congress of 1856, so far as we were concerned.
No one could tell what English statesmen would say or do
on such occasions—(hear, and a laugh)—and sometimes it
happened that they would commit most fatal errors, and
commit the country to a line of policy the most injurious to
the interests of the country, without any opportunity being
given to Parliament to express any opinion upon it until it
was too late. Before the congress of Paris no man's reputa-
tion stood higher than Lord Clarendon's. But what did he
do then? He (Arr. Kinglake) saw by the protocol that one
day, apropos of nothing, the noble lord stood up and de-
nounced almost the only free press on the Continent—the
press of Belgium, and expressed the horror and indignation
with which he regarded the Marianne society, of which we
had never befort heard in England, but which he described
as one of the greatest pests of society. He looked upon such
language coming from Lord Clarendon as derogatory to Eng-
land, because every man who heard or read it must know
that it had been put into the mouth of our negotiator by
some foreign power. The conduct of the Italians throughout
the late war had been admirable, whether we looked to
their bravery, their moderation or their love of order, and
if there was one man who had achieved more glory than
another in the course of that brief but bloody war it was
General Garibaldi. (Cheers.) It was time for Austria and
for Europe to abandon the idea that states could be held or
partitioned by the mere purchase and the transference of
title from ono reigning family to another wishout any re-
ference to the will of the people. The States of Italy had
expressed their will with perfect order, and as far as we
could judge with calm determination. Tuscany, Modena,
Parma, and the legations, had all shown a strong determi-
nation no longer to be ruled by the rulers by whom they had
hitheato been governed. (Hear.) Now what he (Mr. King-
lake) wanted to know was whether those rulers were to be
forced back upon them ? (Hear, hear.) If they could be
satisfied that the wishes of the de facto governments of Italy
would be respected, and that the foreign troops would be
withdrawn, and that these terms would be offered as the
basis of the congress, though much as he deprecated the
idea of a congress to which this country should be a party,
he thought there might be sufficient to warrant our taking

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