The Sun.
London, England, 1835-09-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

mencement of the Session I should have hailed it as the
greatest blessing.—(Repeated cheering.)
ROUSE OF L ORD S, SRPTE3f3S2 4. Lord BROUGHAM—I rise to speak to order.—(Great
Lord Dolmas took his seat on the Woolsack at 5 o'clock. laughter.) If it had been the commencement of the Ses-
sion I should never have taken the objection.---( Cheers. )
Irish Church Bill.
Lord FARNHAM presented several petitions against the'
It is because it is the end of the session, and that we have no
On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON the Grand time for all the business. Before they had very little business
Juries (Ireland) Bill went through Committee, the Report to do, and a great deal of time, but now there was a great
to be received to-morrow. deal of business, and no time to do it. The Orders of the
Lord BROUGHAM presented some Returns from House were flexible.—( Cheers and laughter.)
the Court of Chancery, which he said showed the perfect Lord ASHBURTON thought the Bill ought not to be
working of the Bill for regulating the o pressed forward further during the present Session, as the
offices in that Court. Already there was a saving of 51,3501. and eventually they parties most interested had had no proper notice of the Bill.
Lord HOLLAND said, that the effect of the Noble Lord's
would amount to 100,000/.
The Returns were ordered to be printed. vote, if in a majority, would be, most undoubtedly,
to perpetuate till the next Session, the state in which
LAW INQUIRY. the Dublinpolice were at present. He admitted that no laws
The Nohle and Learned Lord then said he had a should be passed, without fair and due notice being given
duty to perform towards the Commissioners of Law Inquiry to all his Majesty's subjects.—( Hear, hear.) When
this Session, and 42 he hoped it was now near a close, he however he looked at this Bill, he found that it had been
trusted their Lordships would hear with him then for a few carried through all its several stages in the usual manner,
minutes. That Commission was appointed in 1833, and and he should like to know what right any Corporation had to
they had made two most valuable Reports, and he had call upon Parliament to communicate with them.
never seen such a delicate and laborious tesk performed with The Earl of HADDINGTON contended that the Corpo-
such skill and judicious temperance as they had done. They ration of Dublin had a right to state their objections to the Bill.
had proceeded to investigate the matter in all its bearings, and Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but
to consider whether it would be advisable to make a digest, Viscount DUNCANNON would not give their Lordships
first of the Criminal Law; secondly, of the Statute Law; the trouble of dividing.
and thirdly, whether it would be possible or advisable to make The amendment that the Bill be committed that day six
a Digest of the Common or unwritten Law. He was aware months was then put and agreed to.
that there was a diversity of opinion upon that The Bill is consequently lost.
point amongst the most eminent lawyers, but he would ear- LETTERS PATENT BILL.
neatly recommend their Lordships to give these Reports Lord BROUGHAM moved that a message be sent to
their most serious consideration.__( Hear, hear.) It had been the Commons to desire a conference on the subject of some
said in some place, he would not say where, that all these amendments made by them in the Letters Patent Bill, and
Commissioners had done, might have been done in three from which their Lordships dissented.—Agreed to.
weeks—there was no doubt of it, if they did not care how it
CHARITIES' COMMISSIONERS BILL.
was done; but "if 'twere well when 'tis done, then 'twere The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved that this Bill be
well it were done quiekly," as somebody says.—(Laughter.)
read a third time.
Those Commissioners had given up the whole of their time,
and they could not have made their Reports in three or four After a few words from Lord E LLE NB OROUG H,Lord BROUGHAM said he gave up an objection he had
months if they had not. Those Reports were ably drawn up, to one of the provisions of this Bill out of deference to his
and if Noble Lords would attend to those Reports, they would
rise from the perusal of them with the same impression on Noble Friend, but he must protest against such an unheard-
of and dangerous precedent as the Commons handing over to
their minds that they had made upon his.—( Hear, hear.)
the Crown in the lump, the power of appointing forty-four
He would abstain from making any motion at that moment
officers, and fixing the amount of their salaries. He himself
but he begged leave to state that the subject was not new.
brought was
There was a resolution standing on their Lordships' Journals
then sa in a Bill on this
id to be too late.subj—ect two months ago, and it
him
an laugh.) This reminded h
in favour of that proposition; therefore he was only asking
of the old adage, " That one man might steal a horse while
them to re-affirm what they had formerly approved of. He
another might not look over a hedge.
would call the attention of the House to this most important"—(Laughter.)
subject, at a very early period next session of Parliament. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE. said that the power
which this Bill gave to the Crown was not given now for
DUBLIN POLICE BILL. the first time. A similar power was given by the Ist and
Lord DUNCANNON in moving that the House do re- 2d of William IV.
solve itself into a Committee on this Bill, stated that he had Lord BROUGHAM did not mean to say that the thing
held communications with the Government in Ireland was in itself unprecedented, but he objected to the number
on the subject of this Bill, and he was authorized of offices given to the Crown to deal with.
to assure their Lordships that the Corporation of Dublin was The Bill was then read a third time.
not interested in any way in this Bill, and that no part of their LETTERS PATENT BILL.—CONFERENCE.
revenues were taken from them by it.—( Hear, hear.) The Commons having declared themselves ready to hold a
He was informed that the present duties of the police were conference with their Lordships on the amendments made in
not atttended to in the city of Dublin ; that the Police Force the above-mentioned Bill, the following Noble Lords were ap-
were inadequate to preserve the peace of that city ; and that pointed the managers of the conference for their Lordships :
many of them were feeble old men, who were neither able to The Duke of Richmond, the Earl of Devon, the Earl of
protect themselves nor the public.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Shaftesbury, the Bishop of Bristol, Lord Auckland, the Earl
This Bill had been approved of by his Majesty's Government Winchelsea, Lord Strafford, and the Marquis of Conyngham.
in Ireland, who thought it their duty to propose this Bill with Their Lordships withdrew to meet the Commons, and the
a view to preserve the peace of the City of Dublin. If their House adjourned during pleasure. In about a quarter of an
Lordships thought this Report sufficient he hoped they would hour they returned, and the Speaker having resumed his seat
resolve themselves into a Committee on the Bill. on the Woolsack, business was proceeded with.
Lord FARNHAM objected to this Bill being proceeded The Workhouse Property Bill was passed through a Com-
in at that late period of the Session, and without any commu- mince, and agreed to with amendments.
nication with the authorities of Dublin. He, Lord Farn-
ham,had received a letter from the Lord Mayor of that On the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the
city, on Monday, stating that he had never seen the amen dmeuts of this Bill having been moved,
Bill until half an hour before he wrote the letter. He The Earl of WICKLOW maintained that the measure was
would ask whether it was proper that a measure involving unconstitutional. Earl Gre •in the East Retford case had ob-
the whole peace of Dublin should be brought to a second jected on principle to the Indemnity Bill which was brought in.
reading without the magistracy being made acquainted with it ? The all was founded in injustice, and would encourage per-
The Noble Earl concluded by moving that the word " now" jury. It had originated in the inquisitorial inquiries which
be loft out, for the purpose of inserting the words " that day had been entered upon in another place, into the circum-
three months."
stances which attended acts of bribery, which it was alleged
Earl WICKLOW rose for the purpose of suggesting had been committed in certain boroughs. Those inquiries had
to the Noble Viscount the propriety of withdrawing the been proceeded with by Committees of the other House, and
Bill for the present session. He did this from a desire it had been asked why this Bill had not passed into a law? He
that it should not appear that the House rejected Bills that
were really in themselves good ; but the Bill having
with been less it vsas that those to whom it had been intrusted in that
brought forward hastily, and without consultation House were ashamed of it. He was satisfied that the Noble
the Corporation of Dublin, it was impossible that it could
and Learned Lord was not anxious that this Bill should pass,
He therefore
receive that
trusted
the Noble deliberation Viscount in the course
would of the presentwihdr Session. otherwise he would have expressed his opinion strongly in favour
Bill. withdrew the of it. The Noble and Learned Lord, however, hadabstained
from saying anything in its defence. The Noble Earl concluded
Viscount DUNCANNON did not think that the Noble
Earl had shown any reason whatever for withdrawing the Bill. mot m
..
wiss very defective. ° ovine- that the Bill be read a second time this day three
nths It was acknowledged on all hands that the police of Dublin Lord BROUGHAM observed that a most unusual accu-
sation had just been brought against him by the Noble Earl.
ls'arl WICKLOW did not wish to vote upon the Bill ; but
He was oat hitherto aware that lie was slow in stating his
if he was compelled, he must vote against it, in order to
sentiments to their Lordships, but thought that he was open to
protect the rights of the Corporation of Dublin.
Lord' PLUNKETT, in supporting the Bill, said that the
a charge of a directly opposite character. He was satisfied police of' Dublin was in the most shameful state. In that this 13;11 or one of a similar character must be carried ere
going to long. The experience of the House of Commons showed
the four Courts, it was a thousand to one if a person's pocket that some measure of this kind was absolutely necessary,
was not picked before you got there. The manner in which
and the other branches of the Legislature were bound to
the inquiry had been carried on rendered it impossible to sup- act upon tbr.;s opinion. The only mode of preventing bribery
pose the Corporation of Dublin must not have been aware of was by a ma nasure of this kind, or by extending the fran-
what was going on. He did not think the Corporation of
Dublin had any feeling upon the subject. chile to a mu eh greater extent than at present.
Lord ABLNGE R was satisfied that the passing of this
Earl FARNHAM had received a letter from the Lord Bill was the best mode of encouraging corrupt witnesses,
Mayor of Dublin, stating that there was the strongest objec- who theiriselv es had been guilty of bribery, to bring accusa-
tion to the Bill.
Lord PLUNKETT had no doubt that the pickpockets of tions against innocent persons. It might, indeed, fairly be
Dublin had great objections to the Bill, but what objections termeda Bill for encouraging corrupt witnesses to commit
the Corporation of Dublin could have to it he was at a loss to per The amendment was then put and agreed to. The
conjecture. -Bill was. c c nsequently lost.
The Duke of WELLINGTON complained that the Cor- SHANNON NAVIGATION BILL.
On the motion of the Marquis of L ANSD 0 WNE, this
porO
ation of the City of Dublin, who were charged with the
Bill C
management and conduct of the Police, had not been con-
went t hroughommittee.
a,ultad upon the measure. The letter which he(the Duke of W.) TITHE IN ISTALMENT SUSPENSION (IRELAND)
L .dreceived from the Lord Mayor stated that he had never seen
On the mo,ti' on of Viscount MELBOURNE, this Bill was
BILL.
she Bill until that morning, and it was impossible in so short a
time to examine its details. The Recorder also stated that he read a second time.
was not in the House when the Bill had been introduced, MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
and had not seen it until he had arrived in Dublin. Viscount MELBOURNE said that he rose to move that
The Noble Duke then read the letter of the Lord Mayor their Lordships,: should take into consideration the amendments
which set forth, that in a measure so seriously affecting the of the House o f Commons on the amendments in the Muni-
rights and privileges of the Corporation, its members had not cipal Corporath ms Bill sent down to that House. In doing so
been consulted, and that at so late a period of the session it he did not feel i t necessary to detain their Lordships at any
would be impossible to examine its details. Under these cir- great length. They had already discussed the principles on
cutnstances, ho (the Duke of Wellington) trusted that the which the measn ire proceeded, as well as the general details of
Bill would not be persevered in, it, and also the general bearing of most of the amendments
The Earl of RADNOR thought it hard that a Bill which that had been in troduced into it. He would shortly state the
was admitted on all hands to be a good one, should be lost on a import of the an tendments ; but before lie proceeded to per-
mere matter of form, and which appeared to him to be an form this task, h e would shortly allude to another topic. He
idle matter of form.—( Hear, hear.) The Recorder of Dub- trusted their Loi dships would allow him to express his earnest
lin was in London at the time the Bill was introduced, but the h ope, and indeed his confident expectation, that in that stage
Recorder complained that he was net in the House at of the measure, 'what aver might be the differences of opinion
the time.—(Hear, hear.) Whether he was in the House as to the motive of the amendments, or whatever heats might
or not, he must have seen its published votes, and ha ve occurred in the course of the previous discussions, or in would have informed the Corporation of Dublin that ma intaining particulnir opinions, they would at least approach
ench a measure was under discussion. So far as he the Earl the . subject with calmness and moderation, and with an
of Radnor, knew no objections had been stated to the measure, an thous desire to. give it a fair and impartial consideration—
nor no petitions presented against it.—(Hear, hears) Under ( I lear, hear)— and would also manifest an anxiety to meet the
these circumstances, when the state of Dublin was r-1 ouse of Commons in that spirit of conciliation which he
such as had been represented by his Noble and Learned co aild not help feeling ,had been so strongly exhibited by
Friend below him, (Lord Plunkett), and when it was tb tat branch of the Legislature, and that both Houses would
admitted on the other side that the Bill was a good one u nil to their efforts to bring to a successful termination this
.—(Cries of " No, no")—the Noble Earl opposite hasi dis- nee; isure, of such great public importance and of such deep
tinctly said so—he thought it would be quite unreas 1 ble I put dic interest, and which, he might say, the great majority
on the ground that the Corporation had not been consulted,uaa t; of their Lordships admitted was called for by the public
reject the Bill,
fee ling, as well as by the peculiar situation in which the
Lord WHARNCLIFFE complained that no notice had bo dies were placed to which thes measure applied.—( Hear,
been given to the Magistrates and Corporation of
Dublin- h( tar.) He trusted, therefore, they would approach the sub-
whose interests it affected. It was not to be expected their js set without heat, and would carry into effect a measure which
Lorilships would assent to the Bill under such circumstances. 'ae trusted a majority of the House only wished to be framed
It was not a mere matter of form. The Corporation ought in such a way as appeared to it to be most advantageous to
to hates an opportunity of meeting and considering the Bill the country.—( Hear.) The House of Commons had ad-
otherwise it would be a matter of injustice. '
mitted all the amendmen.ts introduced by their Lordships as to
Lord LIOWARD of EFFINGHAM said the Recorder of the preservation of the rights of freemen, with the exception
Dublin was in town on the day after the Bill had been intro- of that exempting therm from tolls : a right which had intro-
duced, and there was then plenty of time for the Corporation duced and kept up the .greatest animosities and dissensions in
to have objected as no doubt he had informed them of the boroughs, and had be en most prejudicial to them, and at the
matter.
same time was most unfair and unjust. He trusted that this
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said their Lordships Howse would not consider it to be their duty to disagree with
i hfs exception to the rights of freemen which the Commons
were about to throw out a Bill, not on its merits, for they had 1 gad' introduced into the Bill. The next amendment entirely
-not been discussed, but they were going
td to throw it out be- , rid Away with the two lists of burgesses introduced by that
cause certain parties had not been consul
Their Lordships were going to throwe upon it. Hear. , Ho- use—one list containing the names of those eligible to
chaprßgeei;idi,bwowiwtaks_t
a stigma upon the s'er re in the council, and the other the list of the general bur-
Corporation, for surely they were not
the police which was now one of the worsturE get! ,ses. This point was connected with the question of quali-
ever, even if they were to report against thuero fie; .tion, which he should explain. The House was aware that
ps should not pas $ the Bill was sent up from the House of Commons without any
that any reason why their Lo
was none why that 9' the Bill ? Surely at all events itcla i ise requiring a. qualification as to those persons who were
should not d: scull its merits. If the police was now under , ,i, p,?
1 el( .cted members of the town-council. Their Lordships
that they were,
management of the Corporation, he lust say last hands the management of it ought to be continued f• 7 le
he .d thought fit to introduce a qualification—namely, that
He supported the Bill, because in his ipaindipn it would estahli
isEraoepeeto the con t' ae town-council should be chosen from one-sixth of
a• the freemen who paid the highest rates, and also that
a good police in place of one that was sh ,in the larger boroughs a person elected to the town-
try, and he was certain the very worst in n- I council should prove that he was possessed of 1,0001.,
that was ground enough for going into Committee N.:lllthdesußrie ly and in the smaller boroughs of 5001. The Commons ad-
The Marquis of WESTMEATH:id there were ours
rvle,toandregouthi: 11. mitted the principle of qualification. They acceded to the
roux Acts in existence, same of
recognized, the powers' of' the Cworpluohratgioa
and
dsa point n e- general principle, but they altered the nature of the qual-
Ts cation which had been sent down to them. They adopted the
the police of the City of Dablin. This wards,
.re rule that in those boroughs which were divided into four
ot the qualification should be 1,000/., or the person elected should
of injary, but of insult to the Corporation support it. He admitted the Bill was a good one,be would n
establish a good system of police, but let propaeurd xvivoutui ot occupy a house rated at 30/. ; and that in boroughs under four
ld wards the pecuniary qualification should be 5001., or the mem-
be given, and if a Bill was introduced early next Session,
ce her of •-the town-council should occupy a rateable house of the
would
most willingly give his assent to it, he value of 151. a year. He couldon, not help feeling that the qua.
The Earl of LIMERICX opposed the Bill, but e lification introduced by the Commons got rid of the invidious
inaudible.
'as distinction of having two lists of voters, which all persons
Lord HATHERTON did not collect from the letter likelyßtyo
the Lord Mayor that he disapproved of this Bill. Withref conversant with the state of the boroughsstated
of lead to ill feelings, and to engender bitter
ence to the statewasanimosities.
they got rid of the vexatious inquiry into
believedthat of the Dublin police he would state af e er- this change, also,
would be the result of a pecuniary qualification
limit
the being subjected to inquiry. He trusted, as their Lordships
In the course•of
admitted, that they would
the Commander of the For
nun found the principle of qualifications
impropriety of continuin ees made a representation sc
the consider the Commons' arrangement satisfactory, and that there
the property of the C g a military detachment to pre
amendments. The qua-
depredations itect would be no objection to adopt their
the soldiers to be r The Lord Lieutenant ord
t the time of election
emoved, and the .ered lification also was not only to be given a
depredations were committed result was that i
Feat into the town-council, but was to be continuous ; but at the
applied to the Lord Lie • The Director of the (
:anal same time guards were introduced to prevent vexatious ques-
left to depend on the l•
Lieutenant, and r f emonstrated against I
also disagreed to
po ice, and in spite aeing tinning of the qualification. The Commons
of the Commander of the Forces, of the represent
;arson an amendment which preserved justices for life. The House
back, and thus the ni. • the der
back, was or
deted well knew that a strong feeling prevailed in many places
police. illtary were dsbes the duties (
in office
.
met the against continuing any paeof the old Corporations .
Lord VVESTMEATII rose taiadreu th 1.1 If therefore the amendnaeul as sent down, was preserved, it
met by loud cries of ‘, order a r /"Question," e ouse, Le
and osi at was would produce the great-01 ill feeling. The Bill originally
The Noble Marquis persimecl `1"11 b
iers."..)ok enacted that the to.yroleouncil should only consist of mayor
Lord B
Lordships had chosen to preserve the
R 0 UGHAM rote !,and moved h and burgesses; their order be read against any Menwei itt3efdtine• ore t " s ,ta the dignity of aldermen,
and proposed that the aldermen should
"—(Tremendous cheering
, ore than 0
from tho Opposition Peers, , '"), not only be elected for life, but that the first body of aldermen
tior should be composed of those who are at
continued forsome time.) t:
k in each CorFora ,
Lord WICKOW...if thiffl had been done at th 9 Cf • ,'
-• 4
present members of the Corporation. The Com:nons disa-
ed to this, as well as regarded the aldermen being elected