The Sun.
London, England, 1832-07-10 00:00:00

YEOMANRY.

Lord GLENGALL, seeing the .Noble Secretary of
State for the Home Department, and the Noble and
Learned Lord Chancellor for Ireland, in their places, was
desirous to put a question to them relative to the power of
the magistrates to call out the yeomanry. It was a
question on which considerable doubt prevaile,d, and it
was of great consequence that these doubts should be set
at rest. He wished to know from the Noble and Learned
Lord Chancellor of Ireland how the law stood, and of the
power of the magistrates to call out the yeomanry in Ire-
land—he wished to know by what Statute it had been
taken away?
Lord PLUNKETT—I❑ Ireland the law officers of the
Crown had given it as their decided opinion, that neither
by common law, nor statute, had the Magistrates, the
Governors, or Lord Lieutenants of counties, the right to
call out the yeomanry, as such. He said as such, because
there could be no doubt that the Magistrates had the
power to demand the assistance of the yeomanry as well
as of every body else, to put down a breach of the peace.
By a Statute of the 52d George the Third, the power of
the Lord Lieutenants and of the Sheriffs in England to
call out the yeomanry was recognized, although not directly
given. But by an Act, applying to Ireland, which passed
the same day, the power was expressly confined to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. As to the question about a
Statute, by which the power of the Magistrate was taken
sway, he ought rather to ask the Noble Lord by what
Statute it was given ?
The Duke of WELLINGTON.—Tho difficulty lay

st.
.

t merely In the manner in which the question was put.—
Calling out the yeomanry meant, properly speaking, call-
ing them out as a body on military service, and payleg
them as a military body; and in that sense, neither in
England, nor in Ireland, had the Magistrates the power
to call them out. But there was no doubt that the Ma-
gistrates might call on them, as on any other person, to
assist in the preservation of the peace.
Lord PLUNKETT concurred with the Noble Duke in
that view of the subject; but in the case of Captain
Graham, that Gentleman had, on the Saturday, some ap-
prehensions that there would be a breach of the peace on
the following Monday, and bad issued his orders on the
Saturday to the yeomanry to assemble and attend at a par-
ticular plaCe on the Monday, and this he considered as
clearly illegal.
Lord GLENGALL understood the Noble Secretary of
State to have said that there was no doubt of the power
of the Magistrate to call out the yeomanry.
Earl GREY—if there was any doubt as to the law on
this head, the matter could not be settled by any declar, -
tion of opinion by any Member of that House, nor by any
resolution of the whole House. But the better opinion
seemed to be, that neither in England nor in Ireland could
the Magistrates call out the yeomanry as a military body.
The power was by statute recognised in Lord Lieutenants
of Counties and Sheriffs in England, and in the Lord
Lieutenant in Ireland. Of course the Magistrates had the
right to demand the assistance of the yeomanry, and of
every man to put down a breach of the peace. If there
was any doubt upon this subject, the proper mode to settle
the matter was by a declaratory law.
Lord WYNFORD—Nothing was known before as to
the case of Captain Graham, except from the Lord Lieu-
tenant's letter, but on the facts, as stated by his Noble and
Learned Friend the Lord Chancellor for Ireland, his Noble
and Learned Friend might be right. He agreed that there
was a doubt about this matter—it could not be settled by
a resolution of this House, which might have to decide
upon it in another way. It ought to be settled by ade •
claratory law.
The Marquiss of LONDONDERRY asked whether
any fresh instructions had been sent on this subject to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and, if there bad, whether
there was any objection to produce them ?
The Marquess of CLANRICARDE did not think that
that was a question which ought to be answered.
The Marquees of LONDONDERRY, on account of
his connexion with Ireland, felt a strong interest in the
subject. Tne Noble Secretary of State said one thing,
and the Noble and Learned Lord Chancellor for Ireland
had said another. Which of these opinions was he to
trust ?

Lord MELBOURNE—He had never said that the
Magistrates had the power to call out the yeomanry for
military service, as a body. Wbat he had said was, that
there could be no doubt but that the Magistrates had the
power to ca I upon them as upon all others of his Ma-
jesty's subjects, to assist in suppressing a breach of the
peace.

PUNISHMENT OF DEATH ABOLITION BILL.
On the Order of the thy for the consideration of the
reasons of the Commons for refusing to agree to the Lords'
amendments in the Bill for Abolishing the Punishment of
Death in certain cases being read,
Lord WYNFORD, who had proposed the amendments,
now meant to propose to their Lordships, resolutions in-
sisting on the first and the last of these amendments.
The abolition of the punishment of death extended to cases
of private stealing in a dwelling house, and of stealing
horses and sheep, and he insisted that this species of pro-
perty would he left without protection, if the punishment
of death were abolished, without substituting the severest
secondary punishment. The Bill, as it came from the
Commons, had enabled Magistrates, as well as the supe-
rior Judge, to sentence to various periods of transporta-
tion and imprisonment; and he had proposed the amend-
ment, that the sentence should invariably be transporta-
tio❑ for life, leaving it to the Crosvn to modify the sen-
tence, where that might appear proper. People talked of
humanity ; but humanity, of late, bad been taking a wrong
turn ; for it syinpathised with the rogue rather than with
the honest man. His second and third amendments, he
did not at present mean to insist upon. But he would
propose to their Lordships a resolution insisting on the 4th
and last, which was to restore the old law, by which
felons under sentence of transportation could neither ac-
quire nor retain property. This law bad been late:y
abrogated, and the effect had bee❑ mischievous.
Receivers of stolen goods and others went out
with property, and were hired by the Govern-
ment as labourers to the people of the colony. They pur-
chased up their services and suffered no inconvenience from
their sentence, except that they could ❑ot return to this

•
country. He bad proposed the re-enactment of the old
law, by which felons under sentence of transportation
should neither acquire or retain l roperty, and this he pro.
posed to insist upon, and he meant also to insist on giving
a legislative sanction to certain regulations made by Gene-
ral Darling for New South Wales. The regulations were,
that felons transported for seven years should not have
their tickets of leave, or, in other words, be pardoned,

until they have served four years. That those transported
fur fourteen years should not have their tickets of leave till

they had served six years, and that those transported for
life should not have their tickets of leave till they had
served eight years. These regulations had been attended
with the best results, and lie had proposed to make them
binding on other Governors, and to extend them to Van
Diemen's Land and other Colonies.
After a few words from Lard DACXtE and the Duke of
WELLINGTON, the question was put on the resolution,
that the Lords insist on the amendments in the first clause
of the Bill.

The LORD CHANCELLOR recommended their Lord-
ships to insist on retaining the first and last amendments,
and to give up the others. His Lordship then put the
question oh the first amendment, to which all their Lord-
ships gave their assent for persevering in it, as they did for
persevering in the third amendment, negativing the others.
Viscount. MELBOURNE then moved that a message
be sent to the Commons, desiring a conference on their
amendments, in which their Lordships thought it right to
persevere.

Conference appointed and message sent.
SCOTCH REFORM BILL.

The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition from
a learned and respectable body of men—the Sheriffs De-
pute of Scotland—against that part of the Scotch Reform
Bill which subjected them to penalties if they failed in the
performance of the duties imposed on them by the regis-
tration clauses of that Bill.

The Earl of ROSSLYN said a few words in support of
tha prayer of the petition.
Petition laid upon the Table.

BOUNDARIES BILL.

The Duke of RICHMOND moved the third reading of
the Boundaries Bill.
The Marquess of CLANRICARDE moved that the
name of Dursley be substituted for that of Thornbury,
as the nomination•place for the eastern division of Glou-
cestershire.

The Duke of RICHMOND said that a commissioner
had been seut down to examine into the matter, and he had
reported in favour of Dorsley.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought it would be better to
retain Thornhury on the ground that Dursley was in the
centre of a manufacturing district, and it might be expected
that the manufacturers would assemble there not to pro-
mote but to retard the election.

The Marquess of CLANRICARDE thought it was very
hard to visit upon the manufacturers their occupation as a
crime.

After a few words from Lord ELLENBOROUGH, the
Marquess of CLANRICARDE, and the Duke of RICHMOND,
The Houie divided on the question that the word Thorn-
bury stand part of the question.
Contents
Non Contents
Majority

Dinsley was then placed in the Bill instead of Thornbury.
The Duke of RICHMOND understood it was the in-
tion of a Noble Friend of his to move that Arundel be a
polling place for the county of Sussex. He would not
object to the motion ; but he wished to be understood
that, in acceding to it, he was not influenced by a menacing
letter which he had that morning received from the Mayor
of Arundel.

Lord GOWER then moved that Arundel be inserted in
the Bill as one of the polling places for the county of Sussex.
The motion was agreed to.
The Duke of RICHMOND then moved that the Bill
do pass.
Lord WY.NFORD could not allow the Bill to pass
without again complaining of the manner in which the
boundaries of some boroughs had been adjusted.
Earl GREY and the LORD CHANCELLOR, in reply
to the Noble and Learned Lord, eulogized the Commis-
sioners who had determined the boundaries, and declared
that nu gentlemen could have discharged the duty with
greater diligence, ability, or fairness.
The Bill was then passed.
THE SCOTCH REFORM BILL.

The question having been put upon the Order of the
Day for a Committee of the whole Ilou,e upon the Scotch
Reform Bill,
Lord MANSFIELD said, that although he retained his
ipinio❑ that the change which his Majesty's Ministers de-
termined to effect in the representative system of England
was most dangerous and uncalled for, yet he could cot
suppose that, having made that change, they could

avoid making some alteration of the Scotch representa-
tion also. But it did not follow, that, because some
change was, under the circumstances, unavoidable, there
was any necessity for the substituting of an entire new
system. In making so extensive a change, it ought to
have been taken into consideration, that the representa-
tion of Scotland, compared with that of England, was
far from being proportioned to its population and wealth.
There was a strong feeling in Scotland, that justice had
not been done in this particular, and petitions would have
poured into the House, complaining of the inadequate re-
presentation given to that country, but that the people bad
been persuaded to abstain from signing the petitions, under
the supposition that by doilg so, they would do injury to
the general cause of Reform. But he was convinced, that
when his countrymen should have taken time for calm
reflection, they would perceive that the change was not so
much for the better, as they had been led to expect. The
present system in Scotland was attended, practically, with
many good effects. The voters were more independent in
that country than in England, and the elections were
carried on with less riot and corruption. But the Bill
before the House would cause Scotch elections to be at-
tended with the drunkenness, riot, and bribery, which,
however prevalent at English elections, had been unknown
in Scotland under the old system. With respect to the
qualification, the Noble Lord was well convinced the landed
interest would have been better pleased if it were higher.
Alluding to the speech of the Learned Lord on the Wool-
sack, he observed that he found in him a powerful assist-

ant, for that Learned Lord had conferred high and just
praise on certain of the institutions of Scotland. He re-
gretted, however, to observe, that undeserved censure had
been directed against the Parliament. Their Lordships
should recollect that Parliament had done one thing, which
it yet remained for their Lordships to eff et. It had esta-
blished a church which amply supplied the spiritual wants of
the people, and was duly and cheerfully maintained by the
people, and maintained moreover in all is just rights and

privileges.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord next pro-
ceeded to defend the Scotch Members, against the charge
frequently brought against them, of indiscriminate support
of all Ministries. From what be knew of the gentlemen
who represented Scotch counties, he believed them utterly
incapable of such subserviency ; and he really believed
that the Parliamentary conduct of the Scotch Members
was as little liable to blame as that of any other body of
Members in the House. In conclusion, he expressed his

opinion that the provisions of the Bill were too popular,
and he earnestly entreated the Government to reconsider
them while there was yet time. He feared that, if Mem-
bers were to be made in all parts of the empire, absolutely
dependent on their popular constituencies, it would be
utterly impossible for any Government to remain in power
for eighteen months.
The Earl of CAMPERDOWN was astonished to hear
any Noble Lord attempt to support the eld close system of
returning representatives for Scotland. He would strenu-
ously support the measure.

The tug of HADDINGTON, in pursuance of the
notice given on a former night, proposed to give two
Members to represent the Universities of Scotland—the

one to represent the Universities of Edinburgh and Aber-
deen, the other Glasgow and St. Andrew's—the consti-
tuency to consist of office-bearers and resident graduates.
To prove that there would be a sufficient constituency, he
stated, that within the last thirty years, 2,791 M.A. de-
grets had be,n taken in the Universities, and 4,151 M.D.
degrees. Of the persons who had so graduated, he calcu-
lated that there were now 1,500 alive ; and he contended,
that as an additional Member had been given to Dublin,
there was a fair claim upon the part of the Scotch Univer-
sities for representation. He accordingly moved an in-
struction to the Committee to this effect.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, for the sake of the

learned bodies themselves, felt compelled to oppose his
Noble Friend's Motion. He did not think it would be an
advantage to the Universities of Scotland, to have the
power of returning Members to Parliament. His Noble
Friend's allusion to Dublin College had no weight with
him ; for were they now constructing a new system of re-
pre,entatioo, he would feel muc'a disposed to withhold
Members from the English and Irish Universities. He
considered that the tranquillity of these haunts of letters
ought not to broken on by the rudeness of political con-
test. In speaking thus, he gave utterance, net merely to
his own opinion, but to that others, who were much
better acquainted with these learned bodies. The intro-
duction of politics to the Universities made the students
prematurely politicians, and exercised a decidedly ob-
❑oxious influence upon the character and pursuits of their
instructors, who, as Ministers of the Go,pel and teachers
of youth, ought to take no part in angry political conten-
tion. Therefore, he did not wish to have representation
conferred upon the Scotch Universities; and, moreover,
he was by no means satisfied that they could furnish a de-
sirable constituency. The M.A. degree in the English
Universities was taken in a very different manner from
that in Scotland. In England, a considerable length of

time—an attention to diseipline—and an examination,
were necessary to qualify a man to take a degree. These
checks did not exist i❑ Scotland. There the degree was
given as a matter of course, if demanded. It very rarely
was given in Edinburgh ; so rarely, that he knew nothing
of it—the form or mode of taking it ; but in the more
Northern Scotch Universities the degree was very com-
monly given ; and their Lordships would see that it might
be indefinitely multiplied in the event of its conferring the
elective franchise. For all these reasons, he objected to
his Noble Friend's suggestion; and would eve❑ say that
he regretted that representation had originally been
granted to the Church. He, however, had no doubt that
the Scotch Clergy would conduct themselves as they had
always done, and continue to deserve the affection and ve-
neration of the people. He trusted they would keep
themselves aloof from all political broils and strugglos.
He had good hopes that they would ; and remarked that
they had so borne themselves in their House of Assembly,
as well to merit their title, " venerable."
The instruction was then put and negatived.
Their Lordships went into Committee on the Bill.
The Earl of HADDINGTON moved that in the first
Clause 51 be erased, and 63 inserted.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, his Noble Friend's
array of figures was very specious, but what did he think
of the West Riding of Yorkshire, which had 900,000 in-
habitants, and only two Members? Or what did he think
of the 2,700,000 inhabitants of Yorkshire and Lancashire
only returning, up to a late period, four Members between
them ? That was under the good old system, in which his
Noble Friend had opposed all improvement. Scotland, at
the same time, with less population than these two coun-
ties, returned its forty-five Members. There were various
other anomalies which were not yet got rid of. Why the
small county of Selkirk, with 6,000 inhabitants, had its
Member, and what an ill-used portion of the people, by
the rule laid down by his Noble Friend, must the people
of the West Riding of Yorkshire consider themselves !
The same arguments held good as to the revenue and taxes
of different districts. In fact, there would be no end of
changes if they were to follow out the principles, as to
number and wealth, laid down by his Noble Friend. The
practical point was, could they have so many Members?
It was admitted on all hands that Parliament was already
too numerous ; and who were to suffer to make room for
the additional Members proposed to be given to Scotland
by his Noble Friend ? As to population, Scotland was
better off than Ireland for representatives, and even as well
off as that country, considering the amount of its wealth.
The practical question, however, was—could they re-open
the whole system ? Was Manchester or Birmingham to
lose its Members, or were they prepared to have a new
Schedule A? The addition proposed by his Noble Friend
would not be in proportion to the population of Scotland
any more the present number, and it would be open to all
the objections of the present number.
Clause agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
On a subsequent clause, the Earl of MANSFIELD
called the attention of the Committee to the fact, that se-
veral parishes had been separated from Perth to add to the
counties of Clackmannan and and Kinross, which had oc-
casioned considerable discontent. He wished to know
why this was done ?

Earl GREY said that there was a petition from these
very parishes in favour of the Bill, which was a complete
answer to the assertion that it had occasioned discontent.
Clause agreed to.—The several clauses as far as the
twelfth were also agreed to,
On the twelfth clause being put,

.
The Earl of MANSFIELD contended at some length
that the holders of superiorities ought to have been
compensated for their loss by the electors who had ac-
quired the light of voting. He only mentioned the sub-
i,et, however, and would not move any amendment.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it was of no
use discussing compensation at present ; for if it were to
be made at all, it must be by a different Bill _Clause
Agreed to.—The House then resumed.
PUNISHMENT OF DEATH BILL.

The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod announced that
the Managers of the Conference on the part of the Corn-
mons awaited their Lordships in the Painted Chamber.
On the motion of Earl GREY, a Committee was ap-
pointed to manage the Conference on the part of the Lords.
After the lap,e of ten minutes, the Lords' Committee
returned, and the Marquess of LANSDOWNE reported
that they had stated to the Managers, on the part of the
Csotmornnittthe ee,amtheendremaseonist.
reasons that induced their Lordships to in-
,i'
Their Lordships then adjourned at Half. past Twelve.