The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-22 00:00:00

ttIE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY 22, 1835.

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would be the result ? There are 2,40 parisheli Ili lieiand.
According to the showing of the Noble Ler& there are 860
parishes ,with less than fifty Protestants. Do I admit, then,
tho rinciple, that it is right to suspend the nomination of
ele4';;ymen to those 860 parishes? Do I consider tart Course
as being any other than a blow fatal to the Nsh Church ? I
do not. But admitting, for the sake ct argument, that the
Noble Lord is right, and I ant wrong, and deducting these
860 parishes from the 2,405, there will remain 1,544 p.arithtt
in Ireland, each having more than fifty Pretest ant inhabi-
t
p allts• Each of those p....rishes, according to the Noble Lord's
rinciple, is entitled co an independent minister performing
w
spiritualhisofnunction:, The Noble Lord is bound by the Report
clueed Commissioners, and by the evidence they have Ad_
ail
; dif he adopts the course they have piointed out to
du, ort the average he cannot assign to the minister of each
Paris
lih in Ireland, having more than fifty Protestants
—fer I
ara ri, now speaking of any others—less than 1801. h year.—
(1..0ud cheers.) But there arc 961 benefices in Ireland with
n.ore than fifty Protestants in each: The Noble Lord was not,
perhaps, at first aware of the fact. Yes ; but who entered
(Cb'No their resolutions before their own Report was made ?
cer'•) Your Report may convict us of a want of fore-
ysight in objecting to the inquiry ; but your Report will con-
ct you of deliberate error, if you adhere to your resolutions
ter heio_ in
ii possession of that Report.—(Loud cheering.)
it here are 961 benefices in Ireland with more than one hun.
ured Protestants in each. I proclaim that fact— 961 bene-
4es in Ireland, with more than one hundred Protestants in
"ch. There are 1,165 benefices in Ireland with a church in
each of them—with two churches in some. There arc 1,383
Nchurches now in Ireland. According to the principle of the Lord, where there is a church he will have a minister,
ablewhere there is a minister he will allot an inde-endent
stipend to that minister. Now, if the Noble Lor' following
outf his own
principle, will do so, and will P.Viot 220/. a year
}:)r the maintenance of each Church ;.'n Ireland, so far from
c4Nntg a surplus to dispose of, he -,rill have s. deficiency to
(1.413'.--(Cheers.) I will talce. the benefices of Ireland now,
with a number of Protestants in each, varying in amount. I
which amount in number to 860; they are not requisite for
"4-Y purpose. lam assuming now, in this branch of my argu-
toen, that the Noble Lord's principle is correct, and I am
:04.!tiopting to show the Noble Lord that, on his owe prin-
-1% he cannot refuse his acquiescence in my requisition.
laden 9 beneficey ryinsgi
ni nirenr
nere are 670 benefices in Ireland, with a Protestant popu-
tio 1,000 mbor between 50 and 200. There are
and, with Protestants varying from 500
; there are 242 benefices in Ireland; with more than
ti'l°°° Members of the Established Church in each. I take
botherlasses of benefices. Observe, lam abandoning alto-
'lreland and make no defence of, sinecures in the Church of
there I want to continue no inequality of provision. That
,wii,„: ',tight to be an inequality of provision, varying with the
a ' nt Po ulof duty, enabling him who has to perform his duty in
pous town, to maintain his station in society, and to
den pete with his
_equals in rank, none -I apprehend, will
3% I divide the benefices in Ireland Which contain a po-
ulatio
n exceeding 50 into three classes. I take those with
betty
Frotestants between
een 500 and 50 and 500, those with Protestants
bene whicave a num-
herssof Protestantsl inooo eachand exceedingfices 1,000. h h
Of the first
,I, , find there arc 670; of the second, 209; and of the
saird, 242. Now I see no reason whatever why, in the city
1,1 bub or in Cork, or in Belfast, there ought not to be
thelliglitings amply provided with the means for the support of
Pr rotestant lilinister.—(Cheers.) If there be not, if the
trtestant minister be not enabled to maintain the independ-
4,„ss_,aarl respectability of his station, and to compete with his
:741' in life, then you are, in my opinion, not merely sacrifi-
toliht,l,lo man, but inflicting an irreparable injury upon the
of titisnahment.--.(Loud cheers.) Supposing—l am speaking
I,,hi
_'es--supposing I allot 2001. a year to the 670 benefices,
amote'! vary from fife

:ty to a hundred 'Protestants ; supposing I
500't3„°°,1: a Year only to the 209 benefices, which vary from
'oh] 's 1,000 Protestants; and supposing I allot 4001. a year
ans„Y_ to the benefices which have more than 1,000 Protestants,
nlak"niing in number to 242, then the demand which I must
low e 'Von the revenues of the Irish Church, for that extremely
293:15nod,rnoderate provision for its Ministers, will amount to
4178 1,,,°- ; Whereas you obtain from tithe at present only
aisn't7"•--4(Renewed cheering.) But observe that this argu-
*ssls all tounded upon an assumption of the number of be-
sisi4 'nand not of parishes.—(Hear, hear.) I• make no pro-
-I'ooo r urates, although in benefices containing
.more than
'oake Isrotetants, there must be curates to provide for. I
"
po,e, no provision for the deducticn occasioned by the tax
m-
o44instUnd ier the Church Temporalities Bill ; but I set off
i ha that the revenue that may be derived from glebes, which
th4tve not taken into account. The Noble Lord has admitted
tii,iillierever there is a church, or wherever there are more
to ortY Protestants, there ought to be an independent minis-
fpisittAhe Established Church, for the purpose of providing
or the consolation for the members of that Church, and
ton, th regular performance of sirial duties.
whatever
bserve,
for th at in My estimate I have map spiritual
de no deduction
ssse,nae eight hundred and sixty parishes, for providing the.
rewre°,flpiritu al consolation tbr which the Noble Lord will
Zi,ooo/ ,believe, on his own showing,
.from
.20 000/. to
and 1 • in short if you take all the parishes in :Ireland,
.10,
' 4'l°l' 1904 a year for the performance of religious du-
tuall'o each, oot only will you have no surplus, but you will ac-
la.t,4ll:naLvewha. deficiency—( Cheers.) Now Sir, what is the
Illater . Ich ought to be allotted to an' independent mi-
ttin , in Ireland ? By what shall that minimum be deter-
Chues7-h ,b-,Y what shall we be governed in fixing it ? The
eat a'erporalities Bill assumed 2001. a year as the low-
raerertbthat, could be given, not in the case of a benefice
all the'i,,,ut in any parish. I find that opinion confirmed by
diseossi,—Partial authorities who spoke on the occasion of the
Mr, L• n of that measure. The present Lord Hatherton, then
Tithe Lit that
who was Irish Secretary, and brought in the
13'11 of last year, entertained this opinion. He said, " I
I°3ll.ecaltrr.in the opinion xpressed by my Hon. Friend that 2001.
of ft, Is not too large a sum for the support of a clergyman
-se Established Church."—( Cheers.) " If the Protestant
eligion is to be maintained in Ireland at all, its ministers
mkt be placed in the condition of gentlemen."—( Rd
eteering.) " From the representations which haven been
inade to me, I believe that many clergymen of the Esta-
Ilished Church in Ireland, are, at the present moment, re-
' t,,,ied but a short degree from the necessity of begging for
daily subsisstence." I am not, therefore, establishing
„ai- a year as the minimum, on any vague assumption of my
711-,
iAlways bear in mind that I am assuming your own
,glue.
Arid
'co be correct--that I am waiving the assertion of
~.„"v. and showing that upon your on principles you cannot
' ~,-",4t my view of the case.— (Cheers.) Dr. Lushington said--
T:4110 higher authority on the subject can be cited—Dr.
mama ent a
s_tri, .
Itsumilogton said--".I fully recognize the principle that Par-
win, , y deal with any surplus of Church property which
Y exist after the necessities of the Church have been pro-
,t,:risloe4dfor ; but the first and most
.sacred of. .our duties is, to
, s, ;' o for the support of the Christian ministers, and I ap-
Ce"end that no man who is not prepared to say that the Pro-,
'•
p`rstadit Establishment in Ireland ought to be levelled to the
ir*:),l'lld, will stand up in this House and say that 2001. per
lo
~nliniirsis too much."—( Cheers.) I will now refer to a Ro-
- thheotisel-:tah.tphroitlyie aoufth;:irri.ty given in a different place. I mean
Finn. I am. not speaking now, the
41713eallreiestsic:r11,
arenedollect, of curates acting under the control of
looking forward to a peat rise in the Church
'to ts nuncement to, and reward for, exertion. I. am advert-
. xlir. e revision which ought to be made for that independent
stit:l"eZ whom the Noble Lord admits ought to be con-
sls'4,l in every parish in Ireland where there are a Church
+, si It than fifty Protestant inhabitants. Mr. Finn sail,
ed' is evident that a man to be a curate must be es we
dl
at tipped as the rich diocesan. Having been myself educate
::(I,oliriarnyitoYf College, I can speak to the fact. I have always
a, 8 that it was disgraceful that clergymen should receive
only 75/. a-year ; and that the Protestant curates,
while do the duty of the superior clergy, are underpaid,
“"e the Roman Catholic curates ~re much. better pas ties more,se, F comfortable. It is well known that in the coon-
aant4)-}1 Kilkenny and Carlow, the Conran Catholic pea-
also • al° actually given relief to the Protestant curates,
sse Y °f whom are placed in situations in which they are
shrink
1 k Y obliged to do that which they would otherwise
sequence from doing, but which they are compelled to do in con-
titueenviclueroefh.t„h_e
(miserable sum they receive from the Protes-
t%
?e iden
ir.ce_canCheers.) Why, can you have more conclu-
you have more impartial testimony than,
resident as it does, from a Roman Catholic gentleman
Nit in ITelatld, who tells you that there is not a sufficient
such is for the Protestant clergy in Ireland; yet that
their ci'. the force of sympathy and generous compassion for
tarii istresses, that the Roman Catholic peasantry volun-
h, 1 s,u'aject themselves to the charge of relieving them, and
tfitl'in.ssr contributions removing the scandal of a starving
irrit•trY• In order that the Protestant curates may not be
t4fpelled to do what they would otherwise shrink from do-
iS and in order that the Roman Catholic peasantry may be
rseved from this unjust charge of contributing from corn-
-1,7_,10n to the relief of their necessities, I cite this evidence as
liorragable and conclusive evidence why we should maintain,
'Clergy auPerfluous, but a sufficient provision for the Protestant
of the --(Cheers.) The last authority I will cite on this part
sent e Sect is the most recent—it is the authority of the pre-
e Attorney-General for Ireland.—( Hear.) The Right Hon.
siden!leman, speaking of livings, the incumbents of which re-
sor„e in this country, and drew the amount of their tithe from
to•"ti Parish in Ireland, allowing a salary of onlya-year
agr e individual who really performed the duty, said, and I,
Note onith him, " This is an evil which out to be redressed.'
emio word have I said, not one word will I say, in vindi-
aent,n,°f such a system ; I will not only correct it for the pre-
the but I will correct it for the future, and I will insist upon
ceisearlg,,,h!iof Parliament to require from any man—who re-
dati ~- ',II" EI-year, or any other sum, to perform the spiritual
the el? °I a parish, no matter on what conditions he accepted
flo_renalivdlingseh
Egnemediate personal superintendence and the per-
of his duty.—( Great cheering.) I am, there-
, not contesting the primary principle of the Honourable
ale,l2„tieman,but admitting it to its fullest extent. Now,
he' what say, °'
a, Right Hon. Gentleman further ? " I," says
f.roin"t_h;
inneootrn (e):e of those who would withdraw anything
more to
fg
I would s k the working clergy.
On the contrary,
tics, see • to place those members of that body in a situa-
their sacred calling, by giving every
actualisw incumbent not less than 2001. or 2501. a-year."
nPon' have I not proved—not upon vague reasoning, not
s, 1• _ assumption—that my principles sic correct ? Have.
s si.,'ot proved, as I said I would, out of your own admi3-
4 hius7, that you ought to allot that provision to those mi-
,,. Inc:. )sister of the Church who preside over benefices ,containing
6; i4te'e ban fifty Protestants.; and that if you-, execute, our. own
sfh„, Iltioas, you ought to allot to every indcpendeut:rnimstpr,
r',' h'
name you may please to call him, a stipend, the
,:ti"nnisin of which should be 200/. or 250/. a-year.--(Lood
~spokrl') Why, Sir, we hear the Scotch Church constantly
s's y 0 en af ; adopt the principle of the Scotch Church, if
;, 14'1 will, and-admit at least the inequality of benefices which
eveilk iri that Establishment, although the c o ch Church is

lower on the average than the Church either of England
or Ireland. Yet the principle of an unecittal distribution of
parochial stirendt it ratifilited by that Establishment. I ap-
' prehenci that the minister who is required to perform his duties
in a populous city—Edinburgh for instance—where his ex•
penses woql4 .be necessarily greater than in remote vil.
taps, would receive a stipend double
Intl ttl a ttlaattl, ittai:lthi. I tipPrehend there are livings in
of North Leith ; so I apprehend the ,ikkiitit;ter'z; In Rdinburgh
Gla,sereAr tbil In Li'reenock, an Hon. Gentleman near me re-
in amount to that al-
-1 Fives and the emoluments of which do not amount to less
than 8001. or 1,0001. a-year. In t. 1.:: case or the living of
North Leith—papers relative to which were presented the
other day, the average reeelptt la' gtatzd td ,be no less than
674,/, 0.yea...4-Cheers. ) This is the stiPM of th,c ministtr
cannot have, at at all, eVentit WI tfillil tut a year each. In
larks, they receive the same ; but I apprehend that, in all
these cases, a glebe-house is provided for the clergymen in
country parishes. I knevr by the return to which I have
already referred, that in the case of North Leith 60/. a year
is allotted to the minister, in addition to the 675/., on the
ground that there is no glebe-house.--( Cheers ) In all the
country parishes of Scotland, the glebe-house of the minister
is, I believe, kept' in repair at the parochial expense. Now I
contend, that in Ireland, and in every country where the Es-
tablished religion prevails, you must adopt a corresponding
principle. If you take 2001. a year as the minimum in a
country parish, it is quite clear that when you come to settle a
minister in Belfast, or in Dublin, or in Cork, if you expect him
to exercise the natural influence of his station, and to be above
the privations, and, I must be permitted to add, the tempta-
tions of poverty—it will be absolutely necessary to establish
the same principle, and to provide for him, not a superfluous,
but a sufficient maintenance ; and if you do that—if you adopt
the scale I have referred to—if you do adopt 2001. as the mi-
nimum, and do allot'a respectable maintenance for the minis-
ters of the Church Establishment in the great cities and
towns--again I say the conclusion will press upon you with ir-
resistible force that, so far from having any surplus to appro-
priate, you cannot execute your own intentions out of the ex-
Jsting revenues of the Church-of Ireland.---( Cheers.) Sir, I
shill postpone the consideration of Many portions Of the Bill
of the Noble Lord, because I am not now discussing the prin-
ciple of that measure, so much as attempting to show that it
is expedient it should be divided, and that there is at least so
much of doubt as to the existence of any surplus to appro-
priate, that it would be most unwise in you to establish any
principle which should lead on that head to extravagant ex-
pectations, which will most probably be disappointed. I post-
pone, therefore, any discussion on all those parts of the Noble
Lord's Bill which make the clergy stipendiary upon the
Woods and Forests. Now, the Noble Lord boasts of having
860 parishes, which he calls the breeders of his reserve. Is
the Noble Lord at all aware of the practical injustice he would
commit, if he were to execute his intention of abolishing these
860 parishes ?—( Hear.) His calculations hitherto have all
been founded on the assumption that these 860 parishes are to
be abolished, but I will now proceed to show you what grievous
wrong you will inflict by abolishing these 860 parishes.—
( Hear, hear.) Why, Sir, in many parts of the west of Ire-
land, although there are parishes which each separately and
individually considered do not contain 50 Protestants; yet in
a great variety of instances they arc united into one benefice.
which although it may consist of four parishes, every one of
which cannot produce its 50 Protestant establishments, has
more than 200 Protestant inhabitants in all. The Church is
usually in the centre of the united parishes, within a tolerably
accessible distance, I believe, of each individual parish, the

joint contributions of which may, in many cases, produce the
decent annual stipend of 2501. or 3001. But the Noble Lord
meets with a union of this description, and finding that there
are not 50 inhabitants in each parish professing the Pro-
testant religion, he sequesters the whole of the four parishes
that constitute the union, because although jointly they may
contain more than 200 Protestant inhabitants, they do not
contain 50 in each.—( Cheers.) Any one would have thought
that you would have rather reprobated the practice of uniting
parishes at all. I declare I should have thought that, if your
object and intention had been to afford a remedy for the exist-
ing evil, you would have severed the unions into their com-
ponent parishes, and allotted a separate and independent
minister to each ; instead of which, however, the Noble Lord
proposes to sequester the whole.—( Cheers.) Now, to show
the injustice of this sequestration of parishes, I will take the
case of a benefice composed of a union of three parishes ; the
name of the union is Cullen. What is the operation of the
Noble Lord's principle in this case ? Cullen parish contains
760 members of the Established Church. Very well. In
Mostoun, one of the parishes, there arc only 48 members of
the Established Church ; in Dromin there are only 40. Says
the Noble Lord, " Here I find a union of three parishes, two
of which have less than 50 Protestant inhabitants in each.

I will therefore sequester the whole proceeds of those two
livings, and leave the minister of Cullen to enjoy himself as
he likes, because Cullen has 760 members of the Established
Church.—(Loud cheers.) But although Cullen has 760
members of the Established Church, it has no income what-
ever.—( Renewed cheers and a laugh.) The income of Cul-
len is nothing ; that of Mostoun is 2481.; that of Dromin,
2041. There remain a congregation of 848 members of the
Established Church. The amount of the present tithe com-
position is 4521.; the Noble Lord's blow of three per cent.
will reduce it at once to 3171. But instead of leaving this
minister in possession of his income, subject to the tax im-
posed upon it by the Church Temporalities Bill, to perform
spiritual duties for 800 Protestants, the Noble Lord actually
sequesters the income of the two parishes, and leaves the mi-
nister of Cullen with nothing at all.—(Renewed Cheers.)
There are at least forty instances of a similar description
which I might bring under the notice of the House.—
( Hear, hear.) I will take another in the south of Ireland, in
the diocese of Ross. It is the union of Kilgarriffe, con-
sisting of the parishes of Kiliarry, Dysart and Island. There
is one church in the three parishes, and that is
Kilgariffe : there are two clergymen: the average attend-
ance of members of the Established Church is 500 ; they are
increasing in number; the whole amount of the revenues of
that union, which contains above 1,136 persons—the present
amount of tithe composition, is 510/. ; reduce it by 1531.,
which is the amount of the Noble Lord's deduction, and 357/.
is the sum which the first part of the Noble Lord's Bill would
leave as the gross receipt of the parish Minister of a union in
which there are 1,136 Protestants. The Noble Lord, how-
ever, then separates the other two parishes from it, and de-
ducts 2951. from the amount of the stipends of the two cler-
gymen.--(Cheers.) I will take as anotherdlnstance the case
of the town of Dundalk. The benefice of Dundalk is a union
consisting of the two parishes of Dundalk and Castletown.
Dundalk is the county town of Louth, and contains 1,447
Members of the Established Church : Castletown contains
only 14 Members of the Established Church, and contributes
200 t. or 210/. a year. The Noble Lord therefore argues,
that because he finds only fourteen Protestants in Castletown,
he may sequester the 200/. revenue of that parish, and leave
the Minister of Dundalk, with 1,430 Protestants, one acre of
glebe land, which produces 10/. a year.—( Prolonged cheer-
ing.) Now, Sir, have I not said enough to establish ground
at least for pausing before we give a pledge which we must
either hereafter redeem, to the inevitable injury, as it seems to
me, of the Established Church, or lay ourselves open to the im-
putation of exciting hopes which we cannot doubt we shall be un-
able to fulfil. The Bill professes to consult the true interests of
the Established Church. What are the true interests of the Esta-
blished Church ? It is not the providing .a sum of Si. or 201.
in this or that parish, for the performance of spiritual duties
on a particular day: in,the true interests of the Established
Church arc involved considerations political, moral, and reli-
gious, as important as any that can possibly influence the
consideration of this, or of any other question. The true in-
terests of the Established Church are not promoted by the
defence of sinecures, by the retention of pluralities, or by the
existence of gross inequalities in the amount of revenue. I
fully admit it, and I am prepared to enter into the considera-
tion of the means by which the Establishment, without refe-
rence to political ends, or without respect for personal inte-
rests—always saving existing ones—may be preserved. I am
ready to enter into the consideration of the means by which,
looking to no other ends, the permanence of the spiritual estab-
lishment may be secured.—( Cheers.) I must maintain, how-
ever, that the interests of the Establishment arc not con-
sulted by relying either on the extravagant zeal or on the ex-
travagant and superhuman virtues of those who are to dis-
charge its functions. You cannot consult the interests of the
Establishment without providing a becoming maintenance for
each minister of the Church, in every case in which a sepa-
rate and independent minister is considered necessary. You
exact from him great moral duties ; you exact great intellec-
tual acquirements—you exact a very expensive course of
cducatien—you interdict him from other pursuits—you do
not rely upon the same principles on which other churches
proceed. You tell him he may marry ; you do not encourage
celibacy ; you expect him to inculcate, by the practical force
of example. those great principles which he is bound to en-
force by his doctrines. You do not consider that he is a
worse member of society ; you do not consider that he is a
less efficient Minister of the Establishment, if he found his
best claims to the respect and veneration of his parishioners
on his setting an example in every relation of social life.—
( Cheers.) And if you require these qualifications—if you do
not discourage these unavoidable expenses—if you tell him
that marriage is proper—if you encourage it, by calling the
example of domestic virtue in aid of his spiritual functions—l
say, in that case, according to the principles of your own
Church, and according to the principles of common sense, it
is not right, it is not decent, where you have the means, to
subject that man to the privations and temptations of poverty.—
( Cheers.) It is not right for his own sake, it is not right for
your Church—t is not right for the Roman Catholic population,
over whom he is attempting to exercise the influence of his sta-
tion. On the subject of the influence exercised by the Church
Establishment, I appeal to another authority. " I will ask
(said the authority to which I refer)—l will ask further—and
it is the last observation I will trespass on the attention of
your Lordships—whether another important effect will not
flow from this measure—namely, the effect it will produce
upon the Roman Catholic population of Ireland. That was
the effect of placing in the benefices of Ireland ministers placed
beyond the reach of temptation by the possession of sufficient
incomes. " The Roman Catholic population of Ireland,
connected as their interests are with the respectability of
the Protestant clergy of Ireland—l say, if any improve-
ment is to be effected in that body, it must be through the
instrumentality of the Church—through the resident pa-
rochial priests. And when I refer to parochial priests, I
am happy to inform the Right Rev. Prelate who ad-
dressed himself to the subject of non-residence; that it is
intended to introduce another measure, for the purpose of
conferring a further benefit on Ireland, by enforcing the resi-
dence of the ministers. I consider that a resident Protestant
ministry will be most useful in its results. On this point I
speak not from personal observation, but on the authority of
those who have long and attentively considered this subject,
and have followed it up ; and I assure the House that the
utility of Protestant parochial ministers in Ireland, even
through they will not be ministers of religion to tir3 large

numbers of inhabitants in those parishes, will still be very
great. The Protestant clergyman will be to his parishioners
a minister of peace; for he will, by his station and constant
residence, have opportunities of conciliating their good-will
by sympathising in their wants and-cares ; by the performance
of a variety of good offices, the importance of which it is
hardly possible to exaggerate. If we strip the Protestant
clergy of Ireland of all those causes of irritation which have
existed with resnect to tithe. and relieve the Establishment of

the odium that I;as attached to it in consequence of fa,
cessif We are able to do this, and do place there men of
respectability and indepeildede ag. jiticlts, we
shall establish 114 a ceeßeotiori Viii_a;ea,flie Protes-
tant eleigY add the Catholic population of Ireland; which will
be found most advantageous to the Established Church, and
tend to the welfare and happiness of the country." These
were the opinions—these arc the, opinions, I have no doubt, of
a great landed proprietor of freiand—of one wile neat holds
a conspicuous station in the Councils of the Crown. 'They
are the opinions of Lord Lansdowne—( Cheers)—who thinks
with me that the public interests, and the interests of all
classes, are promoted by spreading over the face of Ireland a
Protestant ministry, and securing to each member of that mi-
nistry an independent and respectacle stipend—( Loud cheers. )
I do believe these opinions to be proper and correct : I do
believe that if you consult the true interests of your Esta-
blishment, which you admit has a paramount claim upon you,
you will correct every abuse in its constitution, and apply the
surplus in the mode best suited to the promotion of its effi-
ciency.—(Cheers.) I regret that I have troubled the House
at this length.—( Cheers.) I have endeavoured to fulfil the
promise I gave at the commencement of my address : I have
attempted to rely upon the force of argument, and upon the
force of evidence. I have not borne in mind that the last
time this subject was discussed it was made the arena on
which great political contests were decided : I have not
brought to the consideration of this question any feelings
connected with disappointed ambition or personal mortifica-
tion—(Cheers) -- I have not attempted to mix up with it
any peculiar interests or party considerations—l have not
attempted to gain strength by any appeal to the passions or
prejudices of the House—l have not attempted to decry the
religious creed of any other party—( Loud cheers.) I have at-
tempted to rest this case upon the paramount claim which the
Established Church has upon us Renewed cheering. )
You may take one of three courses. You may assert the right
of the Establishment, or propose to correct it, but insist upon it
that its claims shall be first satisfied, and until you arc satis-
fied that you have a surplus revenue, that you will not con-
sent to excite false hopes which you will afterwards find it
utterly impossible to realize. You may ray, " Having made
every possible reduction from the amount of the revenues of
the Church—having thrown the onus upon tho Protestant
population—having relieved the people from the church-cess
—having relieved the public revenue from any obligation to
build churches—having relieved the occupying tenantry from
any direct contribution—having given a bonus of 3s. 101, as
:ou say, but, as I think I have shown, of nearly ss. 10d. to the
landlords, there we will stop, and insist on the application of
the whole of the remainder to the interests of the Establish-
ment—the well-considered interests of the Establishment—
feeling, as we do, that our means are not more than abundant,
and that the Establishment is not more than sufficient."—
(Cheers.) As to your reserved fund, which is to be applied to
purposes of education, it is not to arise until every existing
interest is provided for. To excite hopes on such a ground
as this, would be to set common sense and reason at defiance.
Can you expect that the people of Ireland will be such dolts
as to lend themselves to so wild a scheme ?—( Cheers.) There
is another course you may take—rash, unwise, and improvi-
dent, but practicable notwithstanding. You may at once de-
clare that the Roman Catholic ought to be the established
religion of Ireland.__( Loud cheers from the Opposition.)
You may say, " We cannot struggle against the force of events
and the extent of popular feeling. We will go the whole
length of an established Roman Catholic religion at the ex-
pense of Protestantism." Why, this would be speaking out ;
this would be an intelligible proposition.—(Loud cheers.) In
taking that course, you would be at least consistent.—( Hear,
hear.) There is one other course which you ought to take.
it is a course which is intermediate between the two. It is
either to recognize the principles of the Roman Catholic reli-
gion, or to assert the permanent claims and rights of the Pro-
testant faith.—( Hear, hear.) The course which you arc at
present taking does not settle the subject, but sows the seeds of
a slow poison, which will eventually lead to much expense in
litigation—( Hear, hear)—to continual discord—( Heard)—and
often much bloodshed—(Cheers)--to the ultimate extinction
of the Protestant Church.—(Loud cheers.) If you mean to
maintain the Established Church—if you are satisfied that
that Church has no more surplus revenue than will supply
the decent means of supporting the ministers of the religion,
affirm that principle—( Cheers), and relieve
.the public mind
from the suspense in which the present uncertainty keeps it.
—(Hear, hear.) The course which you are now pursuing
simulates protection to the Established Church, while it shows
real alienation; destroys the independence of the ministers
of the Protestant religion, by making them stipendiaries upon
the Government ; holds the ministers of the Church up to the
public as persons who intercept the rights of the people, who
crowd the avenues of knowledge, and appropriate to their own
uses that property which ought to supply the funds for edu-
cation.—( Cheers.) This is the position in which the course
which you are now taking places the clergy.—( Hear, hear.)
You talk of a reversed fund ; but no one can calculate upon
the operation of it, The effect, however, of taking that
course, is to excite expectations in the Catholic population
which I think you must know will ultimately give place to
bitter disappointment.—( Hear, hear.) The effect of this
course will be, that the ministers of the Church will be
placed in such a state of dependence as entirely to neutralize
the influence which they ought to have. By exhibiting
the ministers of the Church as temporary proprietors of
emoluments in which they have only a life interest, and
which they claim as their property, whereas they are public
funds applicable to other purposes, you exhibit them as at
present intercepting the people from the enjoyment of those
funds. I say take one course or the other. I think the last
course less fatal than that a'hich you are going to take. But
against that course I protest, from the deepest conviction—a
conviction in which I feel you ought to acquiesce upon the
evidence collected through the instrumentality of your own
Commissioners, upon your own principles, and upon your ad-
mission that you had infallibly no surplus to give. The Right
Hon. Baronet sat down amidst loud cheering from the Oppo-
sition which lasted for several minutes.
The Right Hon. Baronet's instruction to the Committee
having been read from the Chair,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Mr. HUME rose
together, but the latter gave way,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thenmoved
(amidst loud cries of " Divide," from the Opposition), that
the Resolution entered into by the House at the commence-
ment of the Session on the subject of the appropriation
of the surplus funds of the Irish Church, be read by the
Clerk of the House. The Resolution having been accord-
ingly read,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER again rose
to address the House, but from the circumstance of his fre-
quently dropping his voice at the end of his sentences a con-
siderable portion of his remarks were unfortunately lost. Ho
,aid that if the Right Hon. Baronet who had just sat down
was willing to admit the importance to the public of the sub-
ject, and the difficulty which he felt in meeting it, it might
readily be imagined how much more difficult he (the Chan-
cellor of the xchequer) felt in following the address of the
Right Hon. Gentleman ; and he could assure the House thet
as to the importance of the measure, no one could be more
impressed with its importance than he was. He could also
assure the Right Hon. Baronet that he heartily joined him in
fervent attachment to the Established Church, and that he
gave his ready and earliest adoption to many of the principles
laid down by the Right lion. Baronet in the course of his
speech. He was ready to acknowledge his entire concurrence
in many of the arguments and opinions adduced by the Right
Hon. Baronet, but at the same time lie was ready to show
how he felt justified in differing wholly from the conclusion
to which the Right Hon. Baronet had come. He confessed
that long as had been his experience in Parliament, he had
never recollected hearing such a resolution as that of the
Right Hon. Baronet, coupled with such arguments. What
was the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet ? The Right
Hon. Baronet either resisted the entire principles of the Bill,
or else, adopting a portion of the principle, he was ready to
proceed to the consideration of the measure in Committee.
Now the argument was, that the Right Hon. Baronet adopted
at least some portion of the principle of the measure, for he
was willing to accompany them to the consideration of its de-
tails in Committee, and the Bill itself was unopposed on the
second reading. Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
would say that if he thought the Bill liable to all the objec-
tions contained in the arguments brought forward by the
Right Hon. Baronet in opposition to the Bill, he would have
died sooner than have acquiesced in the second reading.—
(Cheers.) He would not have sought to pick out aay small
advantages from it ; but if he entertained the sentiments that
it was liable in principle to all the objections urged by the
Right Hon. Baronet, he repeated that he would have died in
his place rather than have acquiesced in it.—(Cheers.) He
would now point out some of the methods which the Right
lion. Baronet had taken to rouse the feelings of the House,
not only aeainst the Bill itself, but against its framers, and
which had for its object the rejection of the Bill altogether.
The object of the Right Hon. Baronet was evidently no other
than an indirect mode of calling upon the House to rescind
their own resolution, by a rejection of the whole measure.
In the outset he would beg leave to give an example, not of
the whole, but of one of the principal arguments adduced by
the Right Honourable Baronet—an argument which appeared
to have made the greatest impression upon the House. This
example would show that it behoved the House to be careful
how they received the statements of the Right Hon. Baronet
as valid arguments, until such time as they were answered.
Was there any one of the Right lion. Baronet's arguments
which made a greater impression, which was more loudly
cheered, and which appeared more conclusive, than that which
regarded the division of the union of parishes ? The Right
Hon. Baronet endeavoured to show that, in the case of the
union of Kilkerrick, the result would be contrary to the inten-
tions of the framers of the Bill, and of those who supported
them—for (said the Right Hon. Baronet) the union of
Kilkerrick consists of three parishes, one of which contains
only forty-eight Protestants, and another only forty-five Pro-
testants, while the third contained a great number.. Now it
so happens that it is the two parishes-which. avethe few Pro-
teStants which.afford the means of supporting the clergymen,
for nothing is derived from the parish which has the large
number ; so that if you take from the-union the two parishes
which have under fifty Protestants, pin will take away from
the parish which has the large number the means of obtain-
ing religious instruction. Now he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) would address himself to those who cheered that
statement. The clause in question was the 70th clause; and
it would be seen if the Right Hon. Baronet had dealt fairly
in stating it, 'The prcivisioa39f the 70th clause were these-,

It provided that " in ease of parishes forming parts of unions,
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners may, if they think fit, sepa-
rate such parishes from the union, and deal therewith as sepa-
rate parishes." Now was . that not different from what the
Right Hon. Baronet had .stated ? Did the Right Hon. Baronet
even allude to the circumstance of the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners having it in their power, if they thought fit, to make
what arrangement they Weased.
An Hon. MEMBER. read the 58th and 71st clauses.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
those clauses. He had no wish to conceal any-
- 1 "^n and Dundalk, it va in the
4-- to continue

certainty 'us.—
thing but in the cases or -.‘,...
pmyer. df ,fl/6 o&iiettlatti.sal cs'ommiSsidners
therii 11:e Mai'. df Id citattrtike: thet,n;
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Are flied tifct rarlshel among
the 860, which arc to be sequestered ?—( Cheers from the
Opposition.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh, that
is quite a different thing, The argument is quite different.
It was quite true, as stated by tbd flight Ilona Baronet, that in
case a union was disunited, the amount of the reserved fund
was necessarily diminished, and surely it ought to be so.—
(Hear, bear.) No one could suppose that there could be a
reserved fund where there was no surplus revenue ; neither
could any one suppose that a reserved fund was to be created
from the union of Cullen, without allowing the Rector of
Cullen in the first place a sufficient income for his decent
support.—( Hear; hear.) It was quite true, that by the 71st
clause, it was provided that if the union should be main-
tained, the income of the next incumbent might be subject to
such reduction as the Lord Lieutenant should direct, with re-
gard to the duty in the parishes of the union, not containina-
more than 50 members of the Established Church. But the
Right Hon. Baronet himself did not object to such a power
of appeal as was allowed by this clause. As to the difficulties
which the Right Hon. Baronet raised to the 58th clause, which
provided that on the nest vacancy of the Church of any parish
in which there were not more than 50 members of the Estab-
lished Church, such Church might be sequestered, those dif-
ficulties were met by other clauses in the Bill. But even if it
were supposed that there was a difference of opinion between ,
the Right lion. Baronet and the Government as to the
operation of these clauses, was that. an argument for the re-,
jection of the whole Bill? Was it not rather. an argument for
their going into Committee, in order that they might have an
opportunity of fairly discussing the clauses, and seeing that
they operated according to the avowed intentions of the fra-
mers of the Bill.—( Hear, bear.) Now he maintained that the
Right Hon. Baronet had not dealt fairly with that part of
the measure.—( Hear, hear.) He had not given a fair de-
scription of its meaning. He (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) contended that to every one who read the clauses
fairly and without prejudice, even if it were assumed that there
might be some doubt whether the intentions of the framers of
the Bill were carried out by the Bill itself, there could be
no doubt as to what those intentions were.—(Hcar, hear. )
He, at all events, could not see see how dividing the Bill could
operate in removing the Right Hon. Baronet's objections.—
( Hear, hear.) Indeed, he thought that the real object in
endeavouring to divide the Bill was much more in the nature
of a desire to divide the House.—( Cheers.) It would have
been supposed, from the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet,
that a general opening was to be given by this Bill to all po-
litical parties. (The concluding part of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman's sentence wee lost in the general cheering.)
Now, the Right Hon. Baronet had avoided alluding to any-
thing which could interfere with his argument. He avoided
telling the House that the Government had limited actions
under this Bill, to the shortest possible time.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") He avoided mentioning that no appeal was
allowed after the expiry of six weeks.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He avoided mentioning that the strictest rules were pre-
scribed to all barristers to be employed under the Bill, be-
yond which he could not possibly travel ; nay, he even
avoided stating that in cases where the excess was no more
than one-fifth, the decision most always be in favour of the
Church.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He did not state that no ap-
peal could be entertained unless a majority—not a numeri-
cal majority—but a majority of the property of the parish
concurred in the appeal. The Right Hon. Baronet had
therefore merely argued against a case which could have no
existence.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet had stated
frankly, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thanked
him for that admission, that there ought :to be some power
of appeal.—( Hear, hear.) He would state a case that oc-
curred in the north of ,Ireland, which forcibly showed that
necessity. It had been agreed among parties that a cer-
tain sum, say 500/., should be paid to the clergymin in
lieu of tithes ; and on the supposition that the parish con-
tained a certain number of acres, this sum was al-
lotted at so much per acre. It was found however,
upon measuring the parish, that it contained a considera-
bly greater number of acres than had been supposed, and
the consequence was, that the amount of tithe paid to the
clergyman was considerably greater than had been agreed
upon. Now that was a case in which the power of appeal
was necessary. But how could this or any other objection
raised by the Right Hon. Baronet to this Bill be removed by
the instruction which he had moved to the Committee ?
(Cheers.) How was it that his object could be answered by
making two Bills instead of one ?—( Renewed cheering.)
The Right Hon. Baronet said that he wished to remove the
difficulties which stood in the way of the progress of this Bill,
but he believed that the greatest difficulty which the Right
Hon. Baronet found, was the resolution which had been come
to by the House.—( Loud cheers.) He rejoiced to find that
the Right Hon. Baronet had become a convert to their Corn-
miss!on.—( Loud cheers.) The denunciations with which that
Commission was assailed by the Right Hon. Baronet on its
being first issued, were scarcely less eloquent, and certainly
not less alarming, than those with which he now assailed the
present measure—( Hear, hear)—and he (the Chancellor ol
the Exchequer) sincerely prayed that they might prove
equally untrue.—( Cheers.) They were then told that the
Commission would cause the overthrow of all property, and
that the Government would be held responsible for its
effects.—( Cheers.) They were told that it would lead
to• murder and bloodshed.—( Hear, hear I from the Oppo-
sition.) Was it then true that the Commission had led to
murder and bloodshed.—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) The Right Hon. Baronet was evidently intent.
upon the commission of murder, but it was the murder of this
BilL—( Cheers and laughter.) He would ask the House whet
was the meaning of the resolution to which the House had
come, and what the meaning of the motion which had been
brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet that night ? The
Right Hon. Baronet had spoken of the process of exhaustion.
He had spoken of the 30 per cent. as peculiar to this Bill ;
but in his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) opinion, the
Right Hon. Baronet had himself made a pretty good begin-
ning in the process of exhaustion ; and in as far as the present
Government. had gone further than his (Sir R. Peel's) Go-
vernment had gone, he held them responsible, but no further.
—( Hear, hear.) He contended that the clergy were better off
under the present Bill that under that introduced by the Right
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite. Would a clergyman
not prefer having the amount of his income secured to him as
it was secured by this Bill, the Government undertakinm the
responsibility of its payment, than any mode which could be
eLsvised by which the responsibility of payment should be
thrown either upon the landlord or tenant ?—( Hear, hear.)
He had no doubt but the payment, as secured by the present
Bill, would be considered in the market the better article,
and would fetch the better price.—(Cheers.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the perpetuity fund, which
it had been proposed should be subject to redemption either
in land or money, and stated that he had made a calculation,
from which he found that in every ease a larger charge was
to be provided for than if no redemption had taken plahe.
Then, with regard to the Church Temporalities Bill, he was
not willing at that time to enter upon the discussion of it
at present, but he would say that lie still adhered to its
justice and expediency.
Sir ROBERT PEEL was understood to ray that he did
not impugn that Bill.

The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Yet that
Bill was called the Church Robberies Bill—( Loud Cheers)—
and it was prophesied that it would cause the annihilation of
the Protestant Church—( Loud cheers)—for they were told
that the moment a diocese came under the operation of that
Bill, there would be no peace for the Bishops.—( Cheers )
That clamour had now been discontinued, hut he would say,
that whatever objections might be found with that Bill, there
was nothing in it which was not previously to be found in the
statute law of the country. As to the Bill then under consi-
deration, it promoted the payment of the stipends to the
clergy, and it provided for those clergymen who were not
otherwise-provided for.—( Hear, hear.) And here he would
beg to remark, that the Right Hon. Baronet had omitted, in
the course of his speech, to mention several other considera-
tions which were necessary to be remembered in the discus-
sion of this Bill. Were there no such things as arrears due
by the clergy ?—(Cheem ) Was there no such matter as
the. million sterling which had been advanced by the people
of England, through their representatives ?—( Cheers.) Were
these matters so worthless, that the Right lion. Baronet,
on taking objections to every clause, and taking objections to
every principle involved in it, thought totally unworthy of
notice? Were they unworthy of notice; among all the strong
arguments which he had made use of, in order to reach so
weak a conclusion ?_( Loud cheers.) He excluded all those
considerations, and any person hearing the Right lion. Baro-
net's speech, would be inclined to think that the clergy
had nothing further to do with this Bill, than in as far as it
affected the payment of their tithes.—( Continued cheering.)
They intended to make provision in this Bill—after making
adequate provision for the Protestant Church,. and in con-
formity with the terms of the resolution proposed at the com-
mencement of the session, and which they were not disposed
to abandon, and which he trusted the Hotise would adhere to
—that if there appeared to be any surplus, that it should be
devoted to the moral and religious education of the great
body of the people.—( Hear, hear.) A resolution to that
effect had received the repeated sanction of the House, and
what had passed since to induce the House to alter it opinion
on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) The resolution had not been
agreed to without discussion—it had not been adopted with-
out weighing- well the consequences of the course they had
resolved to pursue—and it had not been carelessly opposed
by 'the Right lion. Gentleman, or by the great party of
witieb he was at ,once the leader and organ: If ever there
was a question Weighed in all its censequenees-Leonsidered in
all its bearings—or.i narrowly
.scrutinized in regard to the
facts .on which it rested, it was that resolution introduced by
his. Noble Friend in a: Committee of the, whole House;
adopted by. that Committee-.-reported to the House—argued
and agreed
.to by the majority of Members; and afterwards
received in another form the sanction of the liouse:—( Hear;
hear.) lie hoped that what he had said would be sufficient
on this part-of the argtmnin-i: -.He-woad new put it to the
House whether another argument adduced by the Right Hon.
Gentleman was quite relevant to the question before the
House ? The .Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to a
number _of- statements that. bad been made On former occa-
tsions with respect to the number of Protestants in Ireland,

He had referted to Dr. Doyle and other authorities on the
subject, who had asserted that there was not more than 240
or 250,000 Protestants in Ireland—(Hear)—and the Hon.
Member for Middlesex had stated the number to be about
500,000. The Right Hon. Gontleman had made reference to
these assertions in order to show that the number of Protes-
tants had been greatly underrated, as it appeared from the
Report on the table thee there were 850,000 members of the
Est iblishment. Dr. Doyle had certainly underrated the num-
ber of Protestants in Ireland, when he said that there were
not more than 250,000, but on the other hand Mr. Leslie
Foster repeatedly asserted that the Protestants were one-
fourth of the whole population. The opinion, however, of
Dr. Doyle or Mr. Leslie Foster, or any other polemic, had
_ - -le with the question or affected the facts of the crs
nothing to of the case. It appeared, from the
Now what were the race.. •
852,000 members of the
terms cif the Report, that there we., - •„1.4 ••
eeier!s aed
Established ettereir hi Ireland, 660,000
Dissenters, making tool :toy Alit 1,500,000.—( Hear, nee:.
He stood in the presence of many f."(atholie gentlemen, whose
opinions he had not the slightest wish to Wotited, but he could
not help saying that he had rather Mr. Leslie Foster bed been
correct, with reepeet to the number of Protestants, than the
Report. They tritiefi hmeeeer, tale the correct view of the
case, and, doing so, he would ask how were these Protestants
distributed over Ireland ? The Bight Honourable Gentleman
had excluded this important consideration from his argu-
ment, but had spoken as if the 850,000 members of the
Church were equally distributed over the country, and as if
the wants of the several parities, throughout the country
were commensurate the one_ with the ether.—(Hear, hear.)
Of these 850,000 Protestants, 517,000 belonged to the pro-
vince of Artnttgh, The Right lion. Gentleman never ad-
verted to this, but spoke as if they were distributed over
the whole face of the country, and argued as if the circum-
stances were the same in each case. The fact was, that
the very large proportion of tie Protestants resided in two of
the ecclesiastical provinces--'-namely, Armagh and Dublin.
It appeared that the number of members of the Church, in
the province of Arniegh, was 517,000, and of Presbyterians,
638,000. The number of members 'of the Church, in the
province of Dublin, was 177,0004nd of Presbyterians, 2,517:
making -694,000 members of the Established Church, and
640,517 Presbyterians. The whole number of Protestants,
therefore, was •1,334,517. In the whole of Ireland there were
852,000 members of the Establishment, and 642,000 Presby-
terians : making together 1,494,000. By deducting the
number of Protestants in the provinces of Armagh and Dublin,
there would remain 150,473 for the total number of Protest-
ants in the provinces of Armagh and Tuam. The number of
Catholics in these provinces were—Cashel, 2,220,000 ; Tuam,
1,188,000: together, 3,408,000.—( Loud cheers.) This was
another element the Right Hon. Gentleman should have
taken into his calculation. He should have calculated on
the different circumstances in which two of the provinces were
placed from the other two. By the new arrangement and
distribution which the Right Hon. Gentleman said that he
was prepared to agree to, it might appear that in Tuam and
Cashel there might arise an excess. -But than it was argued,
if an excess did arise in those two provinces, it mutt be de-
voted to directly ecclesiastical purposes in connection with the
Church in the other two provinces.—( Hear, hear.) Was
this the mode of action which was likely to bring peace and
repose to Ireland ?—( Cheers.) He was satisfied that by no
such arrangement tranquillity could be produced in that dis-
tracted country.--( Hear.) If they proceeded in the train of
argument he had just adverted to, they must retain the Pro- '
testant' Church of Ireland, even if all the people in that country
became Catholics ; or by the argument that the Church of
England and Church of Ireland were united Churches, they
would be justified in drawing any surplus that might arise in
the north or south of Ireland, and expend it in England on the
portion of the Church in this country.—( Hear, hear.) He
contended that if the principle was to be maintained, this re-
sult might be arrived at by a fair train of argument.—( Cheers )
He put this point to show, that the course the Government
had pursued was not so unnatural as the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman wished to make it appear. He contended that the
Right Hon. Gentleman was not justified in taking the
whole case and leaving out of consideration the difference
of circumstances in which different parts of the country
were placed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Again, reverting to
the Report, he found that the proportion that the Protestonts
of the Established Church bore to the rest of the inhabitants
of Ireland was 10 7-10ths per cent. In the province of Ar-
magh the members of the Church were 16+ per cent., of the
population in Dublin 14 9-10ths per cent., in Cashel 4 per
•:ent., and in Tuam 3 6-10ths per cent.—( Hear, hear.) The
Roman Catholics in Armagh were 624 per cent., in Dublin
35 per cent., in Cashel 95 per cent., and in Tuam 96 per
cent. of the whole population. In the diocese of Connor
they formed 26 'per cent., of the population, and in Kilfenora
not less than 99 1-3rd per cent. If the principle, however con-
tended for by Gentlemen opposite was to be admitted, they
must afford the same measure of church instruction in Tuam,
where the members of the Establishment only formed 4 per
cent. of the population as in Armagh. where they amounted
to 16 per cent.—( Hear, hear.) Whether this was consistent
with the principle of common sense he would not detain the
House to inquire ; but certainly it ought not to be left out of
consideration. The Right Honourable Baronet had not re-
ferred to one particular diocese as illustrative of his argument,
but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would do so. Those
who lied heard the Right Hon. Baronet, if they knew
nothing else of the measure, might reasonably believe that
the supporters of the Bill were anxious to suppress the whole
Establishment ; for lie did not 'show how much the circum-
stances of one part of the country differed from those of others.
The diocese to which he intended to refer was a small one,
and now annexed to the Archbishopric of Dublin, and afforded
a model of the state of the Church in this part of Ireland..
The diocese of Emley contained a population of 98,000, the
numbers of the members of the Established Church were

1,246, or 1+ per cent. of the whole population. They have 15
places of worship, and 31 clergymen. There are 42 parishes
in the diocese and 17 benefices. In one benefice there is
one member of the Establishment; in three dime are less
than 20. In only four do they exceed 100, and in only one
do they exceed 200. The average amount of tithe composi-
tions for each parish in this diocese exceeded 2101. The total
amount of these 1,246 Protestants exceeded 7,000/.—(Loud
cries of " Hear, bear.") Not satisfied with this state of the
Church in the diocese, Parliamentary counties had been
fastened on it. The Board of First Fruits, in the course of a
few years, had expended in this diocese, containing 1,240
Protestants, with an ecclesiastical revenue of upwards of
700,0001. per annum, a sum of not less than 5,6701. on
Churches and glebe houses, and had advanced as a loan a fur-
ler sum of 4,370/.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He
would ask whether those facts ought not to be considered in
connection with the general case. Again, it appeared from
the Report of the Commissioners that there were 41 benefices
in which there was not one Protestant. And these benefices,
be it recollected, came under the operation of the 116th clause
of the Bill of his Noble Friend opposite. The law made pro-
vision for such parishes as if all the residents were as much
Protestants as the inhabitants -of the most Protestant part of
England. This surely was not a state of things which any
man who wished well to the Protestant Church could desire to
see continued. There were 99 benefices, containing from one
to twenty Members of the Establishment; 124 containing
from 20 to 50; and 160 containing from 50 to 100 Members of
the Church. Thus it appeared that there were 124 benefices
each containing less than 50 Members of the Establishment, or
424 containing less than 100 Members of the Church. The
Government, however,- did not propose to abandon these pa-
rishes, but they were anxious to make provision for the reli-
gious instruction of the Protestents. The Right Hon. Baro-
net had dwelt, at great length, on the hardship of giving
five pounds to a Clergyman of a parish, for at-
tending to the spiritual wants of an adjoining parish, in which
there were but few Protestants. Were they then to adhere to
the principle that where there were no Protestants in parishes,
Protestant clergymen should still be paid ?—( Hear, hear.)
\Viten they p-oposed to provide the 51. per annum under the
circumstances stated in the Bill, his Right lion. Friend said
that it was an insult to the Irish clergy.—( Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.) He trusted that gentlemen would not take his
assurance for granted, but would be pleased to attend to an
extract he intended to read from the Report of the Commis-
sioners appointed under the Bill of his Noble Friend opposite.
These Commissioners were two Archbishops, two clergymen
of the Establishment, and one layman ; and they had carried
into effect the principle on which this allowance of five pounds
was made, in not less than five benefices :—" With respect to
the particulars of information obtained with reference to• these
five benefices, all of which were collative, it appeared that the
churches in all of them were in ruins, that there was no glebe-
house in any, and that the only glebe lands in them were ten
acres in Carne and four in Ardskeagh ; that there were no
Protestants permanently residing in Came or in Ards-
kcagh, while in Croghan there were only nine, and in Lis-
cleary and Seskenan about thirty in each--( Hear, hear)—and
that the gross income cf the five be.lefices amounted
to the total sum of about 405/. 13s. 6d. per annum. In no
case did it appear that the spiritual wants of any of these be-
nefices at present required that a distinct curate or officiating
minister should be specially licensed for the performance of the
ecclesiastical duties in one particular parish alone, and conse-
quently the cure of souls, and all and every the occasional
duties within the benefices so remaining unfilled, have been
committed to the incumbents or officiating ministers of adjoin-
ing parishes, who have been nominated and appointed by the
respective diocesans at stipends varying from 41. to 25/.
yearly."—The Report was signed by Richard Dublin, R.
Cashel, F. Sadleir, J. C. Erik, and W. C. Quin.—( Loud
cheers.) The provision which lie propos:•d to make under
this Bill was framed to avoid' difficulties which might other-
wise arise if the course adoisted by the Commissioners was pur-
sued. If they had not, however, the authority of this Report
how much would.they have been taunted respecting this allow-
ance of 5/. per annum to a Clergyman for attending to the
spiritual wants of an adjoining parish to his own, in which
there were but few Protestants. They would not, however,
now be taunted on this point, and those who had formerly
sneered at the five-pound parson battery, must resort to some
other topic, and adopt other arguments titan those formerly used.
He would now take the case of ten benefices in Ireland, and
show the circumstances in which they were placed. In the
first there were four members cf the Establishment, and the
amount of tithes paid was 4401. per,ann. ; in the second, therd
were three-Protestants, and the tithes were 3351. ; in the third,
14 ProteStants and
.600/. tithes; In the fourth, 17' Protestants
and 559/. titles ; in the fifth, 20 Protestants and 506/.' tithes ;
. in the sixth, 19 Protestants and.. 8091. tithes; in the seventh,
20 ProteStatits and 74/ tithes ; in the eighth, 23 Protestants
and 6121. tithes ; in the ninth, 12 Protestants and 4341. tithes ;
and in the-tenth_,'there were eight members of the Church and
the tithes were 500/. a year. Thus, in the whole of these.ted
parishes, there were 144 members of the Establishment, and
the annual income of the incumbents of them amount to 5,6291.
—( Hear, hear.) Again he found the following resultsrtaken
from 50 benefices selected from fifteen dioceses in the four
'provinces. The nuMber of the members of the Church was
525, the riarber of benefices 50; the numbei of resident

Clergy, I 1 ; noneresident clergy, 39 ; in 42 benefices; there
were churches, and in 8 there were no churches. The amount
of tithes collected in these parishes was 13,3001. per animist.
—( Loud cheering.). These were some of the facts which
were. not capable of contradiction, and which would induce
the House to adhere to the ,solution which had before-been
adoated, even for the sake of the Protestants themselves.
The argument which he derived frem the facts he had stated,
was that the continuance of the present state ef things tended
to distract and ultimatzly to destroy the country. The Right
Hon. Gentleman came down now and said that he wished to
get rid of pluralities, to put a stop to non-residende and that
he was against the continuance of any abuses in connection
with the Church. • But how did he -show this ?—( Loud
cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to discover
for the first time that these things existed now.—( Hear.)
They eeeSeinly did exist, but not in that aegravated shape in
which they were fermerly to be met with.—( Hear, hear, from
the Ministerial t'eseltea. ) He repeated that the disorders of
tad C,lturch did not nisi In the same aggravated shape now
that they Jl4 in former times—Cheees)--bat how long was it
since the night Hon. Gentleman and those who sat with him
had discovered the existence of those grevious complaints.—.
flow many years was it since this new light had bromeen on him ;
(Cheers.) He had no doubt but that the Right Boil. Gen-
tleman spoke from a conviction of the truth of what he was
saying. There was, however, pleasure in the novelty at
hearing such things from those on the other side of the House.
They had been taunted with using many arguments for party
purposes, but he had no right to say that between party
and party one had as much right as the other to
appeal to the nation by urging some strong arguments on
this question. He would also observe, that between parties
in that House Hon. Gentlemen on his side had as much in-
terest as those on the other, in preserving the Church
of Ireland, and promoting the peace of that country. What
had been the conduct of lion. Gentlemen opposite when
questions had been brought forward which deeply touched
on the subject, and affected the peace of Ireland. If there
was one question which distract'[ the country more than
another, it was the continuance of . the vestry csss, which
was justly considered a most unfair tax on the people of Ire-
land. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew full well that that
tax was regarded by the people of Ireland as much more
vexatious than tithes. It was regarded by them as most op-
pressive and unjust, to be compelled to take money frona
their. pocketssto _contribute, directly towards the mainte-
nance of a religion in Which they felt no interest, and
which was repugnant to their feelings.—(Hear, hear.) The
continuance of this obnoxiour tax occasioned the parish ves-
try to be made the constant arena of violent party and poli-
tical discussion ;--( Hear.)—and some of the most powerful
political battles contested by the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin, had been at the vestry meetings of the city he
now represented.—( Cheers.) These were the arenas where
Protestants and Catholics met in hostile array, and where
the most bitter and hostile feelings were excited. Attempts
had repeatedly been made to put an end to this state of things ;
but they had constantly been told that the end would be no-
thiag less than the destruction of the Irish Church.—
( Hear.) Those connected with him had come forward year
after year, demanding that the then system of vestry cess
should be got rid of, and that the charge for it should
be defrayed from some other source. They had merely de-
manded that the amount should be paid out of the first fruits;
but who, he would ask, bad opposed this.—( Loud cheering. )
He repeated emphatically, who had opposed this proposition ?
( Mr. Jackson repliceieln a loud tone, " Lord Plunkett ;"
this excited great laughter, and renewed cheering.) There
was a French proverb which said, that the absent were al-
ways in the wrong); he could only say that his anxious wish
was, that his Noble Friend who had just been alluded to
had been present, to afford a vindication of his conduct, which
be (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) knew he could give.
But who was the Irish Secretary at the time.—(Loud cheer-
ing?) Who then were in office, and held the helm of
power ?—( Renewed cheering.) Was it not those very gen-
tlemen who had, after a lapse of years, come down to that
House, and consented to afford a reluctant relief on this
point 7—( Cheering.) They had assented to this relief most re -
luctantly, and when they could not well longer withold it,
and at a time, too, when the mischief which had been feared
had been done.—( Hear.) He had no hesitation in saying that
those measures of reluctant reform which had been extorted
from Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite were almost evils
in themselves.—( Cheering.) Were not many attempts made to
improve the state of the Irish Church since the Union, and how
until recently had all such attempts been met ?—( Hear, hear.)
The Government were now charged with asking too much,
but if they delayed to grant what had been demanded, they
would soon find that what was now demanded was too little.—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Attempts had been made
shortly after the Union to produce some ameliorations, but
they were always unsuccessful. All applications relative to a
commutation of tithes were opposed year after year. His Right
Hon. Friend the Paymaster of the Forces ( Sir H. Parnell)
hall brought forward a motion for several years to take the tithes
off potatoes, but his application bad been constantly refused.
His Right Hon. Friend had then exerted himself to promote a
commutation of tithes, and after several years' exertion, and
when it appeared obvious that some change must take place in
the system, the Right lion. Member for the University of
Cambridge came forward with his Bill for this object, inade-
quate as it was. Further measures had become necessary, but
they had.constantly been delayeduntil they lost half their value
and efficacy. He had no doubt, after the sanction the House
had given to the resolution proposed by his Hon. Friend, that
they would go into Committee on this Bill. He trusted that
no economical Member would be entrappel, from fear of
the expence that would fall upon the country, in conse-
quence of not repaying the million advanced to the
Irish Clergy. --(Hear, hear, hear.) This was a point
which be would not then advert to, but he would remind the
House of the large sums expended by Parliament on the Irish
Church, independent of its income, for the purpose, as he
supposed, of quieting the Irish people. If they referred to
the Parliamentary votes for the Irish Church, they would find
that; from 1801 to 1807, 4,615/. a year was voted; in 1808
and 1809, 9,2301. a year; in 1810 to 1816, not less than
55,3841. a year ; in 1817 to 1821, 27,692/. a year ; and
in the years 1822 and 1823, 9,230/. a year. Thus, in
thirty years 593,377/. had been expended on the Irish Church
since the year 1800, independent of its income, and taking into
account the money that had been advanced in addition, not
less than 920,900/. had been granted for this purpose.—
( Cheers.) The people of England could rcercely be ex-
pected to consent to the non-payment of the money advanced
to the Irish clergy unless they saw that the question was
likely to be settled in a satisfactory manner.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gentlemen had dwelt
at very great length on one part of his speech, namely, in,
endeavouring to show that there would be no surplus re-
venue at all. He had endeavoured to prove this iaa stating
that if 200!. a year was given to each clergymaneand thiewas
multiplied by the number of parishes in the country, such a
sum would be required that no surplus could by possibility ac-
crue. Now, there was this difference between himself and the
Right Hon. Gentleman—he was not disposed to give a cler-
gyman 2001. a year when there was no flock.—(Cheers.)
lie was not disposed to establish clergymen with an income of
2001. a year when he had been told by the Commissioners to
whom he had alluded, and two of whom were Protestant arch-
bishops, that there were thirty Protestant clergymen who had
been satisfied with getting 251. a year for attending to the spi-
ritual wants of the Protestants in adjoining parishes to their
own.—( Hear, bear.) They had the authority of the Commis-
sioners to make a moderate allowance to the clergymen of ad-
joining parishes, and thus they would be enabled to dispence
with a resident clergyman in each parish.—( Cheers.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman, therefore, in assigning an income of
2001. per annum to clergymen, of every parish, did not adopt a
course of argument which was consistent with the course which
it was proposed to pursue in regard to that Bill. He could
net help takleg the liberty of saying that the speech of the
Right Hon. Baronet, powerful as it was, did not, go, any way
to convince him of the expediency of the course proposed by
him. He was at a loss to conceive how the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman could reconcile it to ijmself, or convince any Gentle-
man that any advantage would be gained by dividing the Bill.
(Hear, hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman objected to
the appropriation clauses time proper time to do so would be in
the Committee; where, if he pleased, he could move their ex-
pulsion from time The House of Commons, however, had
decided, after full debate. that no measure for the settlement of'
the question of time Irish Church would be satisfactory which
did not involve the principle that it was necessary to make pro-
vision for applying any surplus revenue that might. arise to ge-
neral, moral, and religious instruction in Ireland, and he did
not think that they would be readily induced to abandon that
principle,—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman,
however, called upon the llouse to divide the Bill into two
parts, and why did be do so ? Was it with the view of evading
a material part of the Bill? Did he do so with a view of eva-
ding time important principle which he had so strongly objected
to? Was the Right Hon. Gentleman anxious to pass a Bill
for the settlement of the tithe question, and to leave out all
those parts of it which related to the appropriation ?—( Loud
cheers.) Would it not have been much more decent if the
Right Hon. Gentleman had come down at once aatd asked
them to rescind the resolution they had sanctioned in go many
forms ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) This, however, he had not
done, but merely came forward with a proposition to divide the
Bill into two parts, that the one part might be disposed of
without touching on the other. There was one more extract
to which he would take the liberty of calling the attention of
the house. The passage itself was so important that it might
well warrant him in so doing, without reference to the high au-
thority from which it was derived. He was referring to Knox s
Remains, and the extract was taken from vol. I, p. 48. The
date was June, 1816. This writer said—" How arc the two
Churches one, except in the arbitrerious, unpractical position
of the articles of Union? In political matters, union between
the countries being substantiated by effecasve arrangements :
in the Ecclesiastical instance, it consists solely :n a gratuitous
assertion, to which every circumstance in both chu:ehes gives
self-evident contradiction. To lay stress upon this asserted
unity, therefore, as a reason for including both churches in all
measures of ecclesiastical legislation is worthy of a statesman
who thinks that multiplying schools and distributing tracts will
cure the long-rooted and long• rankling malady of this myste-
riously afflicted and miserably ill-managed country."--( Cheers)
The argument of the Right Hon. Baronet was equally appli-
cable to the English asto the Irish Church ; but the condition
of the two countries .was .essentially -diffesent ; and because it
was so, be dissented from the ergurneat of the Right lion. Ba-
ronet, add must discuss this 'question with reference to the pe-
culiar 'condition of. Ireland, not . on,general but on pecull4r
principles.-( [leer, hear, hear.) The [light Hon. Gentle-
man thus concluded I will say, let those lion. f3entlenaen
who wish.to retraceelieir steps support this resolution,
.but let
those who think that the' farm decision to which thhe Houset
came ‘A as founded in justice, reiterate their opinion
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