The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-24 00:00:00

THE SIN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JULY 24 1835

',bUlld v e
44111
lebe-houses ; Lut under the present- Bill
culd be garged with a tax of Al. per cent.—( Hear,
And therefore he was justified in saying that
1,1 Bill effectually destroyed the enactments of the Church
~etnporalities Act. With respect to the first, it would be de-
tble in the first place to ascertain what was the estimated
jalenlit of the sums to arise from these suspended benefices.
ii:; r 4 Grey, in the introduction of the Church Temporalities
be into the House of Lords, in 1833, stated that there would
e
rooabout 66 benefices that would conic under the operati
,i'! eeffect of the suspension clause ; the gross revenue of
though not stated by Lord Grey, was estimated to
"'mount to 6,600/. ; and the provisions contemplated by the
'Jseat Bill, of carrying the disappropriated tithes of dig-
tiltics and prebends (of which he would speak hereafter) to
;)e general fund of the Commissioners, would cover any defi-
L, Ile!' of income that might arise by carrying the funds of
p! suspended benefices, in which there were -less than fifty
tonndtestams, to the reserve funds. With respect to the se-
--the funds arising from tithes, without cure, appro-
n 4ted t° dignitaries and prebends, these funds would form
14° to
whatever. of the reserve fund ; neither would the
pacreinst',,arising from them, included in the income of the 860
only ' enumerated by him on .a former occasion. That was
therea return of the incomes of such parishes, or parts
(tics
as constituted parochial benefices. Now the digni-
Plet:' id rebends referred to, were, in soe cases, either com-
-4$ nePcures, without any parochial duties annexed to them,
a t for he case of the deaneries of Dromme Tuam, and Clon-
fortd, the precentorships of St. Patrick's, St. Canice,
tpartl said others ; or these dignities and prebends consisted
lUthes parishes with parochial duties annexed, and partly of
was of other without any parochial duties annexed
for example, the parishes,deaneries of Ferns, Limerick, and Kil-
.,
'He treasurership of Lismore, the prebends of Kilbrogan.
lerdaleBge, and many others. Now let them see
.w.hat will
l,e operation and effect of the Church Temporalities Act,
prebt_ee Act of last Session, in regard to these dignities and
lar,vads, and what the operation and effect of them as re-
-I:due the present Bill. There could be no doubt but if the
,`"tr'itY or prebend were a complete sinecure, it would be corn-
lotorn,nttifor the Lord Lieutenant and Council to suspend it
ta_ee altogether, and to direct that the funds therefrom arising. be
i• "led to the general fund of the Commissioners for the build-
i?g. and repair of churches, or the augmentation of small
et'llnags' as the Commissioners might see fit under the Bill
last Session. In the case of the deanery of Dromore,
tree
iconsists of the rectorial tithes of seven parishes, amount-
-4 ,4911. 195., without any cure of souls annexed, this being
eareplete sinecure, and all others like it, the fruits of them
stoners be carried to the general fund of the Commis-
in . And now let them see the effect of these measures
reward to a dignity or prebend, which consisted partly of
%Parochial benefice, and partly of rectorial tithes appropria-
tZ thereto, without any' cure annexed to these rectorial
of Take the case of the deanery of Ferns.--th.e corps_
13
.eonsists of three benefices, and the rectorial tithes of
~glass parish, without cure, the vicarage of Maglass, to
r.!Ueh the cure of souls was annexed, forming part of Kil-
- union ; this being the case, when the deanery becatne
IltV4llt, it being a dignity, it would be still competent for
I,,fe, Lord Lieutenant and Council to give the rectorial tithes
'llaglass parish to the vicar of Maglass, under the Church
cowedelit Act, if they considered the vicar insufficiently
—but if the vicartvie or parish of Maglass should
mai °
th CS3 than.so Protestants, and if the appointment to
i,:isicarage should, on this account, be suspended, then there
e been due care and foresight exercised in the framing of
e,, Present Bill, by enabling the Lord Lieutenant and the
..41acil to 'direct that these disappropriated tithes should be
eeeied
sir, to the general fund of the Ecclesiastical Commis-
"nets, -for the building and repair of Churches and
,entations of small livings ; a power which did not
of st "efore—so that instead of the general fund in the hands
it :4' Commissioners hieing at all .diminished or reduced,
'rod
actually be extended and increased. for the very
tle.cf,°'e of building Churches and augmenting livings, if
11Peo-s,P'et°urnitnylissioners saw fit. Thirdly, and with regard to the
purchase fund, the income arising from it would
„o%:ventually, under this Bill, be diverted from any of the pur-
;oad'
e, to which it was eventually intended it should have been
eedit. anlicable, under Lord Grey's Temporalities rated
period tonal inducements to realize this fund within a li
Posing (3fyears, were held' out to the tenants, and sup-
pert:lg the income estimated to arise from the sale of these
rear laities should be realized in two years, or the inte-
teo:' she capital should at all events be realized (because the
z otig tags, would be allowed to borrow money at 34 per cent., and
e their estate, paying to the Commissieners 31 per cent.
the Principal was liquidated), what would be the effect of
lize(role arrangement ? Why the interest of the monies rea-
sent ;„11 this way would be 42,0001. 'during the lives of the pre-
with
t,ee_zieuatneebeenittys of benefices. This 42,000/. would be charged
of 28,0001. a•year, to uphold the incomes of
P"oisit'xoi3titlg' incumbents to 75/. in every 1001. worth of corn-
or 41 „as the difference between the 28,000/. and 42,0001.,
the ep1?..1., alear, would be made immediately available to
sio4',7,erat Purposes to which the general fund of the Commis-
eeists 's 'applicable • and on the expiration of the lives of the
he riling incumbents,' the whole of the 42,000/. would remain to
aadteedapplicable to the same purposes as originally. Con
hy Lord Grey, namely, the augmentation of small
bovags, and the building and repairing of churches and glebe-
-4f
-s. It was clear, then, that the present Bill did not in-
Trrnere with, much le'ss repeal, the provisions of the Church
lieo—fP,lt )ralities Bill, as contended for by Sir James Graham.
that the great difficulty under which the argument on
th,i.si'clae.of the House laboured, was to answer the questions
Qevd been addressed to them, 'as to whether they would'
e an available surplus, after supplying all the imaginable
lesiastical purposes to which the Church revenues could be
"ieeeted. He did not, However, shrink from that difficulty._
(Ilea
r, hear.
l ) He admitted at once, that in one point of
tilev there were many things which had been advanced by
to °Pnosite side of the House, which they might find it hard
thoanswer•—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He thought
the many of the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet and
e on. Gentlemen opposite would be irresistible, if it were
po t
for the fact that they were legislating for a country, the
Znitiers of the Established Church in which ranged between
se,„4o and 900,000 people, while the numbers of the Dis.
1,,-,,;sers included 7,000,000. (Loud cheerine..) Remem-
lioilg the numbers that were ranged on each side—when
sawthe zeal—he begged pardon of the Right Hon.
110.„"es—he ought, perhaps, to say the tolerance of the
Gentlemen opposite, and marked the high tone in
tiot`l! they were talking of the. invasion of right§, he could
th • "IP Platting -the question .toffimlf, what would be
(NZ feelings if, by any change—bf the chance of con-
site t or ally other accident, they found themselves in a
ko Thou in which the doctrine, he would not say of the Ro-
lithil,easteelics, but of unitarianism, was in the ascendant? .
toe, b-Y vere assessed for the support of such doctrines, thel,
e'rig the majority, their complaints would assume a form
i,,rYthdiffereitt from those quiet disputes which had taken place
the
Court of Chancery respecting Lady Hewley's estates.
endi laughs.) Really Hon. Gentlemen should sometimes
,(e-ac 13ur to place themselves in the situation of other people.
di tt 'leers.) If they did so, lie thought there must et some
le:trenee in their conduct.—( Cheers.) He was sure
If" they would be more measured in their language. The
said sid Learned Gentleman who last addressed the House
reopen tee State was bound to support its religion, and that the
tbaiee of the established religion rested on its truths. Why
44tyofrieneiple imposed upon tose who dissented from
t .it the
H, crnal opposition to it, and who was
.o decide as t
—(Cheerine.) Was it from the fallible lipsofhe
lips, and Learned Gentleman, or was it from his own fallible
00 that this trial' was to be as' certained ? No, indeed. The
a Y 1) intelligible ground of an established religion rested on
Ivlliering the Opinion of the majority.—(Opposition.
Lee .1' were answered by loud cheers from the Ministei Ministerial
were
of a majority exceeding the numbers of those
to
_Professed any other form of religion. The
.pre§ent
it.._vrtlf Ireland; he admitted—indeed he realer had disguised
etTect.6.uld net allow them to carry that principle into
vented last prescription and present circumstances pre-
askedlt• In consequence of that state of things he
and • this House to sanction what had been fairly
Ile estlY described as a compromise.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
taakenderstood that the Right lion: Baronet was prepared to
from elijection to the transfer of any admitted superfluities
ofa notorious sinecure benefice in the county of Kerry or
vork, for the remuneration of a heard working ttnder-paid
ll° in Down or Armagh ; or, to use the words of the Right
\\,'". Member for Cambridge, " to transfer the thinness of
ltiat,,,rford to the richness of Clogher." He understood the
eert MIL Baronet to consider that instead of attaching re-
. °es to the soil to which they belonged, it would be better
'1) tit they should be assigned to purposes for which they might
srt,ksnost be needed in that particular district, but for which
share might be desirable for their fellow countrymen in
tnl%' districts. g In that the Right Hon. Baronet consented
,e-distribute for the benefit of a section, " while we,"
4
thee Noble Lord, " seek to re-appropriate for the benefit
—(Loud cheers.) He would confess, whatever might
thy'e credit which he should gain by the assertion, that it was
ei,ohi4els with relhtuctance thbeat
made out against he entered into the extreme ease
.11 he houg might the present di-
and ~,,uas of the Irish Church. It was useless for the supporters
to conv°eates of that Church to put on such a bold front, and
,:ilti,Lttilted forth such loud shouts of defiance both within and with-
an ..ta^se walls ; yet it was no matter of surprise to him that
nipt was made on the opposite side to defend the ground
in ' they took up. They had heard various statements made
revere course of the evening respecting the present amount of
tiro tlitest disposable for Church uses in Ireland. It struck
tlntt nothing was more idle and futile than to quarrel on
thwPo, Int—inasmuch as they had it attested on the best au-
to 17, en documents that could not err. He was prepared
Niga° through the different items, placing the most perfect
Ilea_e_c on- the information furnished throughout.—( Hear.)
po,,Z;auld venture to state the present gross
rreynnues dis-
-1,4-;lie for Church uses in Ireland at 807,J33/.—( Hear,
deer; and the present net income at 744,9261. He de-
er,,,seu from that three-tenths of the present amount of tithe
ou'llosition, or 166,500/ , and then 'sixpence in the pound
• that reduced amount, • or 9,700/. ; for he could not con-
41;i's1 to take into account any further loss of thee Clergy
of tits Born' the expenses or the results of the revision
thenes•—( Hear, hear.) The expenses, at all events, could
144,1 !apply to one year, and starchy the income of thee Church
it wo'een unjustly raised hitherto • he could not suppose that
lieot,:ild be materially dimlnisleed by any revision—( Hear,
81,14,; lie had no reason to caleuicZte on a
eiti.‘tivirtimaking, then, continued depres-
A0..0f the price of corn, for that might rise'. as well as, fall.
the deductions which he had stti.7°'
eor, g every result which attended the revision of the tithe
laed"°sitien, the sum at the disposal of the Church in Ire-
the the two then be 568,726/. He would read a statement of
with s composing the income, and he would commence
Lisho "annual revenue of the continuing and suppressed
from P,cll"."—( Loud cries of " Hem 1" and ironical cheers
e Opposition side followed the word "suppressed.")
re was h:s niistake ?--(Cheers from the Ministerial

benches.) He was giving a statement tf the property to be
applied to the uses of the Church ; and he had no reason w
exclude the incomes of the sees suppressed by the Church
Temporalities Act, because he had not yet understood that
his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley, who was among those
who had cheered at the word " suppressed") in that mea-
sure of his had alienated these revenues, or any part of the
property of the Church in Ireland. Surely, then, no objection
could fairly be taken to his, including the revenues of the
suppressed sees in the income of the Church. The Noble
Lord then read the following statement of the items of the
income

of Castletown, with which it is united,, were compounded for
2001. 6s. 5d., and constituted the greater part of the re-
venue, it was true ; and Dundalk, the county town, did con-
tain 1,555 Protestants, while Castletown only contained 14.
But what did the Commissioners of Union recommend respect-
ing it ? viz., " that the Lord Primate states that this union will
cease on the next avoidance, and that it is not intended to be
renewed ; and the Commissioners state that they agree in opi-
nion with his Grace that a revival of this union is not desir-
able." And who were the sacrilegious persons who made this
recommendation ? They were the Most Reverend the Arch-
bishop of Armagh the Primate of all Ireland, the Right Rev.
the Bishops of Down and Connor, and the Bishop of Cloyne,
besides the Lord Lieutenant, the Master of the Rolls, Dr.
Radcliffe, and John Henry Foster.—( Hear, bear.) The next
Union cited by the Right lion. Baronet was Cullen Union.
What, too, did these Commissioners recommend in the case of
Cullen Union? Why, the very same Commissioners stated
that the continuance of the Union between Cullen and Mos-
toun appeared necessary, but they considered a partial disso'.u-
-' tion of the Union practicable and advisable, by separating the
parish of Dromin from the Union, and with this view they
recommended a church and glebe-house to be erected in Dro-
min. The third Union to which the Right Hon. Baronet re-
ferred was Kilgarriffe Union, which consisted of three parishes.
and would according to him be left with only an income of
3571. Sr the support of two Clergymen. he ( Lord
Morpeth) found on inquiry that these two Clergymen were
all the time only one man, who held the two-fold situation of
Vicar of the parish, and Prebendary of the pariah of Island,
held in union with this vicarage, and whose duty as Preben-
dary appeared, by the Report of the Commissioners on Deans'
and Chapters' property, to be to preach five times in the year
in the Cathedral Church. Before ho had heard the state-
ments of the Right Hon. Baronet, he had himself, wishing to
see how far it was proper to vest so largo a discretion in the
hands of the Irish Government, taken two cases—and the first
two, which he found in the same volume as that containing the
Returns relative to the Unions, both of the same class, and
one of them being that of an union, all the parishes of which
would aonie under the suspending portion of the Bill.
Lord • STANLEY here interruptod the Noble Lord by
handing across the table to him a ,volume apparently con-
ttining some Report, and requesting him to read a particular

passage.
Lord MORPETH proceeded to look at it, amid loud cries
of " Order I" from the Ministerial benches, 4nd then said that
he should leave it to his Noble Friend to read it.-....(L0nd
cheers.) He had not seen anything to disprove what be had
stated. His authority, it was true, might have deceived him;
but until it was proved to have- done so, he should continue to
entertain the most undoubting conviction of the tvutl► of the
allegations which he had made.—( Hear, hear.) He was 4-
h/ding, when he had received the interruption from his Noble
Friend, to two case of Unions, the first which had come un-
der his notice in the Report. He wished to call the, atten-
tion of the House to all the parishes comprised in these Unions
which came under the suspending clause of the fill as not
containing BO members of the Establishment, as well 43 the
other parishes belonging to them, the inhabitants of which
varied in number. The numbers of the Members of the Es-
tablished Church in the two unions to which he rtferred, with
the numbers of parishes which belonged to them, and the*Pro-
testants residing in them, were as follow :
Members of Tithe
First Union.

ch. Estab. Comp.
. 99 1174
. 61 200
. 10 200
. 12 18Li
. 14 325
. 0 34
. 0 0
. 0

Knoektapher
Anghavilla
Dunnemaggin
Kilkeasy
Derryraberry
Killana
Killcreddy
Killkervill
Protestants 196 1,044
The whole population ..... 7,507
Second Union.
Palcroan
Portnascully
111ud...

4 150
0 75
0 43

Protestayts 4 270
Population
With regard to the latter union, in which the number of Pro-
testants was four, and the amount of tithe composition 270/.,
he did not. hesitate to say that such a case should be summarily
dealt with ; but with respect to the first of these Unions, in
which the total number of Protestants was 196, arid the tithe
composition amounted to 1,044/., he thought that it presented
quite a fit subject for the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the
Lord Lieutenant, in order that they might see whether some
reasonable arrangement might not be come to, by wnich a due
amount of remuneration would still be reserved to those who
performed the duties in the unsuspended parishes of Knockto-
plier and Anghavilla, whilst a mere suitable appropriation
might he effected with respect to this union than that by which
the sum of 1,0441. was expended for the purposo of providing
for the spiritual wants of 196yrotestants.—( Cheers.) A con-
siderable impreSsion was made upon the House on a previous
night by a statement that there were 186 parishes in Ireland,
which it was proposed, under the Bill to suspend or sequester ;
but although the appointment of clerks to many parishes
would be suspended under the provisions of the Bill,
yet the appointment of clerks to the 'benefice of which
these parishes might at present form part, would net
necessarily be thereby suspended, and some painS
had been taken to ascertain the effect of the 13111 witl,
this view, in regard, not to the parishes, but the benefices, iu
the following &sacses, which would be. as much affeete'd—if
not more—by the provisions of the Bill, as almost any other
diocese, excepting those of Meath and Cashel. The first
was the diocese of Waterford, which had been materially re-
lied on by an Hon. Member who spoke last night. This dio-
cese at present consisted of 13 benefices, consisting of :12
parishes. The appointment of clerks to six of these benefices
might, by the Bill, be suspended ; but of these six benefices
one was a complete sinecure, and in two others there were not
any Protestants and in the remaining three benefices, one
only contained five Protestants, another 14, and another 19
Protestants ; and all these six benefices were, at the present
moment, without either Church, glebe-house, or resident mi-
nister in one of them. But the appointment of clerks to the
remaining seven benefices in this diocese would, not be affected
—the income of four of them would remain whole and un-
touched by the Bill, although that of the remaining three may
be modified in part, inasmuch as they consisted of unions of
parishes, in some of which it did not appear that there are
any Protestants.—(Hear, and.-cheering.) He would next
refer to the Lismore diocese. Out of forty-two benefices
at present existing in this diocese, consisting of seventy-four
parishes, as appears by the Report of the Instruction Com-
, inissioners, only ten benefices would be left without a se-
parate and individual minister, in consequence of these
benefices being, at the present time, without either a church,
glebe-house, or resident minister in any of these benefices,
except two, in which a minister resided, to attend to the oc-
casional duties, although there was neither church nor glebe-
house in of these two benefices.—( Hear, hear.). And what
was the state. of these ten benefices in regard to their Pro-
testant congregations ? One benefice was without any Pro-
testants ; four benefices with less than ten ; two benefices
with twelve in each ' • and three benefices with Protestant con-
gregations, varying from twenty- two in the lowest, to thirty.
one in the highest.—( Hear, hear.) It was true that the ap-
pointment of clerks to fifteen more benefices would be suspend-
ed ; but then in each of these benefices a seperate curate must
be established (as there was either a church or a glebe-house
in each of them) at an income, if the •Commissioners see
fit, of 100/. in tithes, 25/ " in glebe, and the use of the glebe
house, if the curate will only keep it in repair ; and what
was the state of the Protestant congregation in these 1!
benefices, some of them consisting of an union of two or three
parishes ? In three of these benefices the Protestant congre-
gation was less than 20 persons ; in three more less than 30;
in three more less than 40 ; and in one less than 50 ; in one less
than 60 ; in two less than 70 : in one less than 80 ; and in
the last, which is a union of three parishes, the Protestant
congregation consisted only of 94 persons.—( Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") So that,-in' the three benefices, which con-

, .
itiried less than 20 persons, the curate, if he were assigned
lOU, would be paid at the rate of 51. a piece for each Pro-
testant; at the rate of 251. for each family, there being only
four Protestant families resident in those benefices.—( Hear. )

The last was Cloyne diocese. Out of 83 benefices' in this
diocese, consisting of 120 parishes, only 21 benefices would
be left without a separate and individual clergyman; the
state of the Protestant congregati6ns in which, was as fol-
lows :—eight of these 21 benefices were without any Proiest-
ants; eleven more were without, at this moment, either a
church, glebe-house, or resident minister, and in not one of
these eleven did the Protestant congregation exceed 27 per-
sons; in many of them it did not amount to any thing like
27 persona one of these benefices contained only one Pro-
testant ; and although the appointment of clerks to 13 other
benefices in the diocese might be suspended, yet in each
of these cases a separate curate must be appointed, as there
was in each of them either a church or glebe-house,
although in six of these benefices the Protestant congre-
gation did not exceed 20 persons, in two not more than
30, in three not more than 40, in one 60, and in
another it was 78—leaving 49 benefices in the diocese, in
which no suspension in the appointment of a deck would take
place ; and that too in a diocese which will be as much af-
fected by the Bill as almost any other.—(Hear, hear.) His
Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
dwelt the other night at considerable length on this side of the
question—but he (Lord Morpeth) did not hesitate to follow
his example, for it was only by the different Members of the
Government addressing themselves to the immense mass of
details by which this' question was surrounded, that the case
could be fairly and adequately presented to the House.—
( Hear.) In the diocese of Cloyne to which he had last re-
ferred, he found that in itself the following was the number of
the Protestants and the amount of tithe composition, in the
following parishes of that diocese

Members of Tithe
Ch. Estab. Comp.
X.
Killatty
Ballybea
Templeracarigy ... 27 , 493
Ballyroarney
Ardagh ... 14 600,
Whitechurch
Moogeesla
Clonfriest
The value of tithe composition in the diocese of Cloyne of 65
parishes. with less than 50 Protestants, was 15,253, and the
total of the tithe composition in the same diocese was 43,3691
--(For the cure of a flock, said the Noble Lord, commend no
to the pastorship of Clovne.—( Cheers.) The Right lion.
Baronet, the Member for taloworth, calculated in the speech
:,..which be introduced his motion to the [louse, the number
...
of benetic,cS iri Ireland to be 1,335. Now he admitted that
ID ere were, in strict legal terms, 1,385 benefices in Ireland ;

but what :cal the state of many of these benefices ? There
were of sinecure benefices about GO, others of them consisted
of prebends or dignities of, or belonging to, cathedral churches,
with no other duties annexed but that of preaching five or six
times in the year in the cathedral churches, as would appear by
the second Report of the Revenue Commissioners relating to
deans and chapters—( Hear, hear.) But the number of parochial
benefices in Ireland could not be reckoned at more than 1,250.
And of the total number of 1,385, there were 264 benefices,

in which the appointment of clerk would be suspended by
this Bill, and in every instance where there is a church or

glebe-house, a separate curate would be appointed for each
individual benefice, at an income, it may be, from tithes and
glebe of 1251., with the use of the glebe-house, if he only kept
it in repair.--( Hear, hear.) Now this reduced the existing
number of parochial benefices from 1,250 to 1,000; and as
there were abut 500 benefices in Ireland, consisting of unions
of two, three, or more parishes, it certainly would be compel

tent to inquire into and ascertain the number of members of
the Established Church in each parish of any such union, with

, a view to a different distribution of Church property.—( Hear.
hear.) Some of these unions were of very great extent ; in-
deed, Ballinakil, in Tuam diocese, consisting of nine parishes,
appeared by tri.ie Report of the Instruction Commissioners, to
be fifty miles distant as to the extremo points of the union,
and certainly nothing could be more inconvenient to the mem-
bers of the Established Church resident therein, than to allow

such an union to continue ; and it would become the duty of
the Commissipners to assign each parish in which there were
no less than 50 Protestants, to the minister of the church most

conveniently situated to them. It might be said, however,
that if a sum of 1251. were allowed to a curate for one of these

benefices, it would reduce the amount of that surplus which it
was intended shculd be available for the purposes of national
education. He thought that a large surplus would still re-
main if tlie prilpip)e (pi which the measure was founded was
adhered to, and which was that there whore superfluous in-
come existed, that the wants of the clerical members of the

Church %NW lived on the soil, or possessed the requisite num-
ber of parisitionm, and peal:wined the duties their office,
should be amply provided for. It had been argued, too, that in
the first statement which he made of the funds which would be

applicable to the purposes of national education, he had not cal-

oulated nu the effects which would be produced by those
ciausea is the iti whlch proviOcel fV the veetietion of the
amount to be paid to the rector of' oeFiaiu buolices in which
there might not be the prescribed number of Protestants ; and
it was added that he had in all such cases provided that the

cum 4hcqul4 not lily)); below 3001. a-year. Now he had not by
the hill limited ttic att.iiiot to Awl, ii,:yp4r l 14.0 he contended
that the amount of income should be proportiood to the ex-
tent of .ecelekiastical-duty.,—(l-lear, hear.) That he had,

.IiGIVPVOI'; UM* grugncl fgr e4lculgthr gg funds which he
thought might bn applied to purposes of education, from the
operation of the clauses contained in this measure, he felt
i.ittidied hp ghelgd ke able to prove by the retgrns which he
held in his hand,

1. Templemore, diocese of Derry---Gross value, 3,240/. ; tithe
composition, 3,235/. ; value of glebes, Si. ; Protestant population

6,414 (nearly 11 per head for religious instruction.)
Alultalfrafik, dicioeso oX ionukgliCtruzz value, `i,051. ; tithe
composition, 851/. ; value of glebes,l,2o4/. ; Protestant population,
3,332 (being 12s. Id. per head.)
3. Kilmore, diocese of Armagh--Gross value, 2,078/. ; tithe
composition, 1,213/. ; value of glebes, 865/. ; Protestant popula-
tion, 4,014 (being 14 711, per /lea )
4. Donoeglunore, diocese of Derry—_--Cfruss value, 2,115/, ; tithe

composition,-1,440/. ; value of glebes, 675/. ; Protestant popula-
tion, 1,677 (being about 1/. ss, per head.)
0. I,niith, dinego .4 Armagh—Qm.i4 y 41441 2,t457, ; tithe com-
position, 1,0884 ; value of glebes, 601, ; Protestant population,
201, (being nearly 81. per itekl.)
The Second Class consists of Clergymen's Incomes, as above,
exceeding 1,5001., compared with the Members of the
Established Church in those benefices,
Papp !lioPrgt3 e9f Derr;`—cifeta valnet 1,6007. ; tithe com-
position, 1,0001. ; value of glebes, 600/. ; Protestant population,
4.4720 (beitig Ils, 9.1, per head, )
0, Clonsoagh, dicovo At I.44l,lln—Gross value, 1,500/. ; tithe
composition, 1,500/. ; value of glebes, nil. ; Protestant popuation,
2,409 (being nearly 12s, sd. per head.)
3. Dona heady, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 1,902/. ; tithe
aorapooitiont 1,101, i yaltie of glebes, 5521. ; Protestant popula-
tion, 1,633 (being nearly 11, 3s. per head.)
4. Magherat diocese of Derry—Gross value, 1,665/. ; tithe com-
position, 110141. I value of glebes, 650/. ; Protestant population,
1,142 (being 1/. 9s. per head.)
5. Saughboyne, diocese of liaphoe—Gross value, 1,849/. ; tithe
composition, 1,700/. •, value of glebes, 149/. ; Protestant popula-
tion, 790 (being 2/, 62. per heath)
•

The Third Class consists of Clergymen's Incomes, as before,
exceeding 1,0001. per annum, 2s compared with the Mem-
bers of the Established Church in their benefices.

1. Termannauguirh, diocese of Armagh—Gross value, 1,483/. ;
tithe composition, 803/. ; value of glebes, 6801. ; Protestant popu
lation, 1,722 (being 17s. per head. )
2. Loughgilly, diocese of Armagh—Gross value, 1,393/. ; tithe
composition, 808/. ; value of glebes, 585/. ; Protestant population,
737 (being 11. 7s. 9d. per head. )
3. ClOiileigh, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 1,190/. ; tithe com-
position, 840/. ; value of glebes, 3501. ; Protestant population, 806
(being 1/. 9s. 6d. per head.)
4. Tamlaghfinlagan, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 1,233/. ;
tithe composition, 1,0001. ; value of glebes, 235/. ; Protestant pri-
pula.tion, 817 (being 1/.'los. sd. per head. )
5. Creggam, diocese .of Armagh—Gross value, 1,3501. ; tithe
composition, 1,050/. ; value of glebes, 300/. ; Protestant popula-
tion, 686 (being nearly 2/. per head.) _ _

The Flintrth Class consists- of Clergymen's Incomes, as before
exceyding 5001. per annum, as compared with the Members
of tte Established Church in their benefices.
1. Norevagh, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 630/. ; tithe coat- ,
position, SSII/. -;"`value of gielies, 50/:`; Protestant population, 546
(being 1/. 3s. per head. )
2. Clencha, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 703/. ; tithe com-
position, 5551. ; value of glebes, 1481. ; Protestant population,
423 (being 1/. 13s. per head. )
3. Dunleer, diocese of Armagh—Gross value, 637/. ; tithe com-
position, 563/. ; value of glebes, 691. ; Protestant population, 239
(being 2/. 4s. per head.)
4. Sermonfeckan, diocese of Armagh—Gross value, 6731.; tithe
composition, 620/. ; value of glebes, 53/. ; Protestant population,
165 (being 41. per head.)
5. Clonmany, diocese of Deny—Gross value, 505/. ; tithe com-
position, 4101. ; value of glebe, 951. ; Protestant population, 505
(being 1/. per head.)
The Noble Lord then went on to allude to the correspondence
in which the Bishop of Limerick had lately taken a part, and
said, that the statements which were inadvertently made by
him, coming from one who was unquestionably a man of
learning, liberality, and piety, were more illustrative of the
anomalous system in Ireland, than if a similar testimony was
borne to them in a formal manlier. The Noble Lord then
proceeded—lt has been stated in the course of the debate that
there was no authority to be found in the Gospel for remov-
ing a religion which was once established. I have heard the
Gospel quoted on both sides of the question, and in support
of oda Niew of it. In my humble judgment there is no au-
thority to be found in the Gospel that should regulate the
secural arrangement of benefices, or other matters of a tem-
poral nature connected with a church ; but it does, in my
mind, prescribe that feelings of true religion and good-will
to all men should universally prevail, as a debt which is due
from man to God.—( Cheers.) But, according to the Con-
servative reading, the Gospel must be differently interpreted ;
for they maintain that we have no right to alienate ecclesi-
astical revenues, and do not hesitate to avow that the State
ought to prescribe what should be the true religion. Thus
they are for rendering to Caesar what is God's, and to God
what is Csar's.—( Cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, at the conclusion of his

speech—and I assure the House, to whose indulgence I am
so deeply indebted, that I am drawing to that of mine—said
that of the two alternatives before us, it would have been
more manly and independent to establish the Roman Catholic
religion alone in Ireland; and I remember the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin also
stated that, rattier than consent to the Bill, he would agree
to the total demolition of the Church Establishment. Now,
fer that alternative we are Rot prepared—( Cheers): we do
intend to maintain the Church : we hope to improve it : but
of this we are sure, that if you leave it in its present state
costly, cumbrous, and disliked, you will have no chance of
saving it.—( Cheering for some minutes.) Will you, then,
leave the question unsettled? This House may—the other
House of Parliament will—throw out the proposed measure ;
but when they have done so, and the present outcry ceases,
and the excitement is subdued, and the angry invectives are
stilled, then, when the arithmetic of this Report of the Com-
missioners, backed now by the recommendations of the Right
I-lon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) works its sure and steady pro-
gress in the minds of the people of this country, and when they
have leisure and opportunity to weigh the proportions, and to
digest the facts which it contains, I very much doubt
whether, when we meet at the commencement of another ses-
sion, that the prospects of the Established Church will b^
found to have brightened in the interval—(Loud cheering),
and whether we shall not find that the real, though less ex-
citable well-wishers to the Church, will discover their means
of supporting and strengthening it. materially curtailed by the
ruinous success of her misjudging friends and sacerdotal allies.
(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst cheers which con-
tinued for several minutes.)
Lord STANLEY rose, but sat down immediately, in con-
sequence of the confusion and the discordant noises that pro-
ceeded from the Ministerial benches. Order having been,
after an interval of some minutes, restored, the Noble Lord
proceeded to address the House, and after the first sentence
which he uttered the profoundest quiet reigned throughout it.
He said that he would perhaps better consult the feelings and
wishes of the House by abstaining from addressing it on that
occasion after a discussion of three nights, and after the sub-
ject had been so fully, so ably, and so zealously discussed on a
former occasion during seven nights, for then the principle
under consideration he thought nearly similar to the present,
though the evils to be apprehended were certainly not of
that imposing and exciting nature which the present Bill
was well qualified to produce. Yet, notwithstanding the
discussions that had taken place, and the complete deve-
lopement of the tendency, character, and object of the
Bill, he, bolding such opinions as he did, and was known to
bold, and identifying himself so anxiously with the question
of the Church Establishment, would consider it unfair to his
own character, and would not perhaps be in accordance with
the expectation of many Members of the House, if he should
give a silent vote on the proposition submitted by the Right
Hon. Baronet, because although there were many schemes
Propounded, many suggestions thrown out for Reform in the
Church, he considered that proposition was the only safe and
dracticable proposition for allaying, in the first place, what-
...Ter discontent and animosity was entertained against tlic.
Established Church, whether that discontent and ant,-,city
were the result of the abuses and imperfections of the Esta-
Dlishment, or were created by the instrumentality of dolma.