The Sun.
London, England, 1832-05-26 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 25.

FINCHETT MADDOCK, Esq. the newly elected
Member for Chester took the oaths and his seat.
Mr. BULLER brought up the amendments of the Com-
mittee upon the Exeter Railway Bill, which were ordered
to be read a second time.

Sir W. GUISE brought up the amendments of the
Committee on the St. Jamey's (Bristol) Improvement Bill.
Lord STANLEY brought up the amendments on the
Chorlton-row Improvement Bill, which were read a second
time.

.....
Mr. BAILLIE presented petitions from the High Con-
stables of the wards of St. Michael, St. Nicholas, and St.
Stephen, in the city of Bristol ; and also from a Mr.
William Newton C'ark, all against the Bristol Compensa-
tio❑ Bill.—Referred to the Committee.
Mr. Alderman VENABLES postponed the third read-
ing of the Golden-lane Burial.ground Bill until the Sth
of June.

--
-mr. HUME presented a petitio❑ from the Rector and
certain inhabitants of St. Luke's, against the Golden-lane
Burial-ground Bill.

Mr. COLE presented three petitions from the Protestant
clergy, &c. of the county of Fermanagh, and from certain
Sunday-school teachers, against the proposed system of
Irish Education.

Colonel PERCEVAL presented two similar petitions
rrom two parishes in the county of Sligo.
Mr, GORDON presented several similar petitions from

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BrisstirolEan. dsTceErt‘avinAßpaTrishe presentedl in
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ilso against the Irish Bill of Reform.
town and another Royal Burgh, praying the House not to
grant any further supplies until the Reform Bill be pass, d.
Sir S. GLYNN presented a petition from the counties
of Flint and Denbigh, against the system of Education in
Ireland.
Mr. H. GRATTAN presented petitions from Drum-
condra, Walterstown, and other parishes in the county
of Meath, on the subject of tithes. Also a similar petition
from a place in Limerick. The Hon. Member also pre-
sented a petition from Youghal, complaining of the great
exaction of tolls at markets and fairs in Ireland, and pray-
ing the House to make some corrections in the system.
The Hon. Member hoped, in a reformed Parliament at
lea.t, this matter would be inquired into.
Mr. O'CONNELL, in supporting the prayer of the pe.
tition, observed, that if the late Secretary for Ireland (Lord
L. Gower) had continued in office, he would have put an
end to Foch an impost. The Hon. Member regretted that
the present Secretary had entirely passed by so important a
subject.
Mr. CHAPMAN presented a petition from Baltimore,
praying for the extinction of tithes. Also from a parish
in Westmeath, against the punishment of death in cases of
forgery.
Mr. YOUNG presented a petition from the diocese off
Kilmore, against the plan of education in Ireland.
Colonel LINDSAY presented a petition from Auchter-
muchty, in the county of Fife, praying that that place
might be added to the eastern district of burghs in that
county.
Mr. GILLON presented a petition from Musselburgh,
praying the House to stop the supplies till the Reform
Bill became law. Also from the Shetla-nd Isles, praying
that under the Reform Bill they might be separated from the
Orkney Isles. The Hon. Member also presented a petition
from the brick and tile burners of Dorset, praying
for the removal of the duty on tiles.
General PALMER presented petitions from the city of
Bath, the parishes of St. Paul and St. Michael, in the
same city, praying the House not to grant any supplies till
the Reform Bill be passed into a law.
Mr. BALDWIN moved for an account of the number of
appeals and rehearings that were beard before the Lords of
the Privy Council, also the number of decisions come to by
their Lordships within the last year.—Ordered.
Sir M. J. STEWART presented two petitions from
Greenock, praying for protection to the West India
colonies.

Mr. BAILLIE presented a petition from Bristol, in
favour of the General Registry Bill ; and one from the
same city, praying the House to stop the supplies till the
Reform Bill was pissed.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the Rev.
Thomas Smith, of Shooter's-hill, in the county of Kent,
in favour of a measure of Reform in the Church of Eng-
land. The petitioner complained that by the law every
Bishop was obliged to take an oath that be did not wish
for the honour, when it was well known that no one who
was made a Bishop, but coveted it. He also thought that
the Right Rev. Bench was overpaid, and that no Bishop
ought to have more than 10001. a-year. He also prayed for
the abolition of tithes, as they had been the cause of much
bloodshed in Ireland.
Mr. FOLEY presented a petition from Kidderminster,
for the stoppage of the supplies.
Lord ALTHORP moved that the House, at its rising,
stand adjourned till Wednesday next, in consequence of
Monday being the King's Birth-day, and Tuesday the
Anniversary of the Restoration of Charles the Second.
—Agreed to.
Mr. STANLEY rose to move the second reading of
Irish Reform Bill, but before doing so he was anxious to
bring under the notice of the House, a gross breach of its
privileges. On Friday last the Committee on Irish
Tithes agreed to the draught of a Report to he made
to that House—the usual course was, that the Re-
port should be printed for the use of the Mem-
bers, but there was a general understanding that no
Member should publish e►en extracts; then how much
would the House be surprised to hear that a verbatim copy
of that report appeared in the Dublin Evening Mail of
Monday last ? Here was this document going the
round of all the Irish Papers, inviting discussion,
and rousing angry feeling, before even that House
was acquainted with it. He did not mean to pursue the
matter any further at present, but as the House was to
adjourn over two or three days, he was anxious to bring
it before the House, in order that the public might be
made aware that the report had not been made public by
any authority emanating from either the Committee or Go-
vernment. The Hon. Gentleman then moved the second
reading of the Irish Reform Bill.

Mr. LABOUCHERE felt that the House could be
scarcely doing its duty, unless it had some assurances from
his Majesty's Ministers respecting the salary to be given to the
new Governor who was about to proceed to Madras. He
therefore asked whether that officer was to receive the
same salary as the former Governor, or whether he was to
go out at a reduced salary? He (Mr. L.) was one who
was far from wishing that the salaries of such persons
should he reduced below what was large or liberal, but he
certainly conceived that the salary hitherto enjoyed of
16,000/. a year was somewhat too large. Ile therefore
wished to ask what arrangements had been made upon:that
subject ? There was another point of even greater import-
ance than that : the House was aware that the
East India Company's Charter was about to expire,
and that it was the intention of Ministers to institute an
investigation, with the view of making some new arrange-
ments—he wished to know whether the new governor
was to proceed to Madras, with an understanding that be
was liable to such alterations in the salary and duties as
might appear necessary to be carried into effect.
Mr. GRANT, in reply, stated that the pre-
sent opportunity had, indeed, been taken to make
a reduction in the salary to be given to the
new Governor. The present salary had been stated to
be 16,000/., but from a difference in the rate of ex-
change, it was really not more than 14,000/., and it
was proposed to reduce that sum to 10,000/. With
respect to the second question, he could only state that
the new Governor, like all other officers, of course took
office subject to such arrangements as might at any time
be made by Parliament.
REFORM IN PARLIAMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
The Order of the Day for the second reading of the
Irish Reform Bill was then read,

Mr. STANLEY rose—lt was unnecessary for him
to occupy the attention of the House with any ob-
servations upon the general topics of Parliamentary
Reform, as its necessity had in the strongest mea-
sure, and in various instances by discussions of both
Houses of Parliament bean exemplified ; and if any per-
sons were of opinion that the principles of Reform in
England ought to be different from the principles of
Reform in Ireland—that the nomination boroughs in
England were injurious, but in Ireland a blessing; it
was not for him to combat such arguments ; at
present he would leave the vindication of them
to those persons who entertained such opinions.—
(Hear, hear, bear.) In answer to perhaps a nume-
rous class of persons who objected to the Bill,
because they believed the principles of it were
not carried to a sufficient extent in Ireland, he would only
say that if any amendments to extend the principles further
were proposed, he would give them the greatest attention ;
But those gentlemen who entertained such opinions would,
of course, be expected to vote for the second reading of
the Bill, from the views which they entertained of
Parliamentary Reform.—(Hear, hear.) While upon this
subject, he would just advert for a moment to a letter
which had appeared in one of the daily papers, containing
objections to the principles and provisions of the
Bill, and which bore the signature of the Hon.
Member for Kerry ; he would not, however, impute the
letter to that Hon. Member, but he should like him
to attempt to prove two assertions contained in it ; one
was, that the Bill, instead of being called a Bill to amend
the representrtion of Ireland, ought to be called a Bill
to restore the Irish Protestant ascendency. The Hon.
Member would fail to convince him that such would be the
tendency of the Bill, but lie would be much obliged to him
if he would convince the Hon. Members on the other side
of the House, of that tendency.—(Hear.) So to the
second assertion, viz., that be (Mr. Stanley) had received
assurances of support from all the Tories, he could only say
that of all the three Bills, the one against which the hot-
test opposition of the Tories was expected to be manifested
was the Irish Bill. These were the two assertions made
very boldly, but this he would forgive, if the Hon. Member
would undertike to prove them.—(Hear and laughter.)
The Rijit Hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr. Croker)
had stated as his reason for voting for the second
reading of the Bill, that he did not do so be-
cause he approved of the Bill, but that having
sanctioned the second reading of the English Bill, with a
view of having it discussed in Committee, he would adopt
the same course on the present occasion. Another Hon.
Member had gone further, and stated that Ireland had
been treated with great injustice in not having enough
done for it. He (Mr. Stanley) therefore confidently re-
peated that these Honourable Members would not op-
pose the second reading of the Irish Reform Bill,
because that would be preventing a single step being taken
towards accomplishing the object which they entertained.
The objections to this Bill were chiefly on religious
grounds, from the fear of its giving an immense

oreponderance to the Roman Catholics. tre denied h :
but even if he admitted that argument, he would meet it
in limine by the assertion that it was no argument in 1832:
The Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to quote extracts
from speeches delivered on the occasion of passing the
Catholic Relief Bill, and contended that the object of all
chose was to destroy the distinctionbetween Protestants and
Catholics, and declared that the objections to the pre-
sent Bill on religious grounds would be the means of sow-
ing dissension, and recreating the distinctions of religion.
In the first place, he would take the liberty of turning
to the representation of the counties in Ireland, and the
House would have the goodness to recollect that out of the
one hundred members, sixty-four were returned by the
county constituency, and the Bill, as far as it extended the
elective franchise, could not, by any possibility, have any
effect against the Protestant religion in Ireland. Accord-
ing to the last returns laid before the House, the popula-
tion of Ireland at the present moment amounted to
7,700,000, and excluding the 700,000 included in the
counties of cities, there would remain seven millions
to return members generally for Ireland. Accord-
ing to the last returns laid on the table of the House,
the total number of the county constituency of Ireland was
52,162 persons. Of that 52,162 there were only about
20,000 who were so low as the 101. franchise. How,
therefore, could such a constituency be unsafe or dangerous
to the Protestant religion ? Hon. Members who thought
so had better have no constituency at all. He would state
still further, that only 20,000 of that number of the 101.
and out of that number in the Protestant province of
Ulster alone there were no less than 8,500 persons, leaving
only a very small proportion to the other three provinces.
—(Cheers.) He might here mention an addition which
was intended to be proposed in the present Bill, which was
not in the last—it was intended to give the right of voting
to 501. freeholders, the same as in England, nrovided their
_
lease was not for a less term than sixty years.—(Cheers.)
This was necessary to be done, because, owing to the for-
mer laws against the Catholics, they could hold no free-
hold property, and it became a custom to purchase for the
term of 99 years. There were in some parts of Ireland
a great number of such holders, who were not freeholders,
but who were, notwithstanding, quite as independent, and
in every way as well qualified to exercise the elective fran-
chise. He believed there was only one place in Ireland in
which the extent of the constituency under this Bill could
produce any inconvenience, and that was Dublin. If all
who might qualify under this Bill should register, he be-
lieved there would be as many as 16,000 voters. At pre-
sent there were 3,500 freemen and 2,500 freeholders in
that city; but he thought it would scarcely be contended
that the freemen formed a more respectable constituency
than the 101. householders under this Bill. For all the
other seven great towns of Ireland there would be left a
constituency of only 15,000, and no one, he thought,
would contend that it was unsafe to trust the franchise to
such a constituency. Was it right that the great town of
Belfast, with a population of 44,000 inhabitants, should
have the mockery of a representation in a constituency of
only 13 persons ?—(Hear, hear.) Or would any one
contend that, in that great Protestant town, a consti-
tuency of 2,300 respectable householders could not be
admitted without danger to the Protestant Establish-
ment ?_( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He might also direct
attention to Dundalk, which had been blessed since
the Union with 16 electors and 13 representatives, termi-
nating fortunately in the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. J.
E. Gordon), none of whom, with two or three exceptions,
were in any way connected with the borough. The Bill
made one alteration which was calculated to lessen Catho-
lic influence ; for there were five boroughs in Ireland
which had a Si. franchise, and which by this Bill would
be altered to a 101. franchise.—t Hear, hear.) It was
argued that the Bill would contravene the intention of
James 1., who bad chartered 40 boroughs, for the express
purpose of giving a preponderating influence to the Protes-
tants of Ireland. He denied that such was the intention
of James, and he was borne out in this opinion by the
speech of Sir John Davis, on the opening of the Irish Par-
liament, in 1660, who said that the Parliament was sum-
moned to legislate for all classes of the country, and that
the forty new boroughs were created, in order that one-
half of the community might not legislate for the other
half without their consent.—(Hear, hear.) In order to
show that such could not be its object, the Members re-
turned of each religion were not very dissimilar, there
being 125 Protestants and 121 Catholics. Looking,
therefore, at this Bill, even with the eye of one bigotedly
opposed to the Catholics, be must come to the conclusion,
that it could not add more than six or seven Members to
the Catholic interest.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was cuti-
ous with respect to corporate and nomination boroughs that
their very rottenness was made their merit, for it was said
that if the inhabitants could agree with the corpora-
tions there would be no danger in admitting them, but as it
was improbable that they should, they would have no com-
munications with them.—(Hear.) They were bound to
pass the present Bill by every tie of justice to a country
to which they were united, he trusted, by inseparable ties.
He called upon them to look at the regard paid by the
Irish Members towards the English Reform Bill, and to
say whether those Members had not taken a deep interest
in its success—whether, in fact, their advocacy of it bad
not been frank, and open, and generons.—(Loud cheers
from all parts of the House.) The principle was the same
for England as for Ireland. If it was just in this country,
it was equally so in that ; and, independent of the danger
of withholding a just measure, they should remember if
they refused it to the latter while granting it to the former,
they would furnish thereby the strongest argument for a
repeal of the Union between the two countries that he
had yet heard uttered—(Hear, hear)—for it would be ad-
mitting that they looked at English interests in one point
of view and Irish interests in another—that in England
they are determined to legislate according to the voice of
the people, while they had made up their minds to legislate
for Ireland by stifling it.—(Loud cheers.) The Eight
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that the Bill be
read a second time.

Mr. LEFROY said it was his intention to move, as an
amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that day
six months. There were particular dangers affecting Ire-
land which were not so much as glanced at by the Right
Hon. Gentleman. The great point insisted upon by the
advocates of Reform in England was the preponderance of
borough representation over what was called free and po-
pular representation. But that argument would not
hold good in the case of Ireland. Ireland had 300 Mem-
bers at the time of the Union ; of these 100 of the most
exceptionable were swept away—he begged pardon, the
most unexceptionable.—(A laugh.) For his own part,
he should not object to an increased representation for the
counties if it was necessary to have a Reform Bill at all.
(Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.) There were in Ire-
land eight boroughs which had a free and open constituen.
cy, and of the remaining seventeen the constituency,
though small in number, was still not corrupt. The num-
ber for each borough varied from 12 to 94, individuals.
The franchise was given to these boroughs by the consti-
tution of the land. Now he should like to know upon
what ground it could be argued that it was not unconsti-
tutional to take away, without any crime proved, those
rights which the constitution had orignally granted. But
then, if no constitutional grounds could be shown, and if
nothing could be urged except expediency, he would ask
upon what foundation did that argument rest ? Where
eighty-three out of one hundred Members were returned
by a popular constituency, and where there remained
only seventeen that were returned for close boroughs,
could it be said that Reform was necessary ? He
would put it fearlessly to the Noble Lord opposite (Lord
J. Russell) to say whether, if the borough constituency of
England bore no greater proportion to the popular conBtig
tuency than the borough constituency of Ireland did
to popular representation, be would ever have deemed it
advisible to bring forward the question of Reform? But
then it was asked by the Right Hon. Gentleman, if, while
England was to have a real representation, that of Ireland
was to continue a mere mockery? But he (Mr. Lefroy)
would ask whether, after what he had now stated, repre-
sentation in Ireland would be called a mockery ? It was
asked by the Right Hon. Gentleman, are we, who would
not endure nomination boroughs in England, to suffer
them to exist in Ireland ? To this he would reply, that
if they were to legislate for Ireland in the same manner
as for England, then they ought to go to the whole extent
of the principle proposed to be adopted for England, and
give to Ireland an accession of county Members. That
counterpoise would give to property that protection which
its possessors had a right to expect when so sweeping a
change was to be effected. He utterly denied the frorrect-
ness of the doctrine which he had heard advanced in that
House, that religion had nothing to do with the political
institutions of the Crown. Was not the Crown Protes-
tant ? Were not all our institutions Protestant ?
Did any one imagine that the Established Church
of Ireland could resist the increased influence which this
measure would give the Roman Catholics?—(Loud cheers
from the Opposition benches.) Did any one imagine that
the Church of Ireland would fail alone ? Would not the
Church of England, in all probability, fall with her; and it
she did not, would not the Union between the two coun-
tries be dissolved? What was the language of the now
reforming Lord Plunket, at the time he was a Member of
this House. Lord Plunket said that the Protestant Church
of Ireland was the bond of union between England and
Ireland, and that for any roan to rob the Church of her
rights would be to seal her doom, and terminate the
connexion between the two countries. The Hon. Member
then referred to a letter addressed to the people of Ireland

by
Nrr. O'Connell, in which that gentleman stated, that 't
`ecere Reformers was the- best way to provide repeaters.
Rut (continued Mr. Lefroy) what did this Bill propose tt
do? Why, to place twenty-five boroughs at the disposal e
the great popular leader of Ireland, and that in addition tr
the almost universal influence which he already possessed.
As to the 10/. renters of Ireland, they would not make a
coPstituency one fraction better than the 40s freeholders
that were done away. The Relief Bill professed to place
Catholics and Protestants upon an equality of political
Power; but the Bill now before the House gave to the
Catholics an enormous preponderance. He would ask, i
the Protestants of Ireland were not protected, would they
uphold the Union, which was now preserved only by their
refusing to join the Catholics in a demand for the repeal
of it ? He certainly feared they would not. If they
passed this Bill they would give power to persons who
Were known to be hostile to the Protestant establishment
and to British connexion. He had listened in vain for a
satisractory reason to account for the proposed change in
the borough constituency of Ireland. The Irish boroughs
were created by James the First, for the protection and
maintenance of the Protestant religion in Ireland. There
Was the same necessity for them at present—and, indeed, a
greater necessity than existed at the time of their creation
—as the power and influence of the Roman Catholics, in
and out of the Legislature, had greatly increased. Nor did
the reasons on which it was proposed to interfere with the
English nomination boroughs extend to the boroughs of
Ireland, for in the Irish boroughshe privilege of returning
Members was exercised with the greatest purity, and no
case of corruption had ever been proved. He concluded
by moving, as an amendment, that the Bill should be read
a second time that day six months.
Lord CA STLEREAGH rose to second the amendment.
He contended that the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Stan-
ley) bad made out no case to justify him in proposing a
measure—which he (Lord Castlereagh) greatly feared
would he found in its operation to shake the very founda-
tions of society in Ireland—to upset the Church Esta-
blishment, and all the institutions now existing in that
country—and to lead, at no distant period, to a complete
separation between England and Ireland. That such a
fearful experiment should have been proposed upon
grounds so insufficient, or rather upon no grounds what..
ever, might have surprised him if he had not recollected
the course pursued by the present Government on many
subjects connected with Ireland. Nothing else could be
expected by him from a Government which had discoun-
tenanced the Protestant yeomanry, and encouraged those
who were the open advocates of agitation, and the ene-
mies of tranquillity, in that country. He believed that,
notwithstanding the increased power of the Roman Ca-
tholics, arising from the Catholic Relief Bill, the Esta-
blished Church of Ireland would be enabled to support
itself by means of the Protestant borough constituency;
but after this Bill was passed a great proportion of the
borough constituency would be Roman Catholics, as well
as the county constituency. At the time of the Union
twenty-five of the boroughs created by James the First
for the preservation of the Protestant faith in Ireland were
left, and those boroughs had uniformly returned Protes-
tant representatives, determined to support the Pro-
testant interest on one side, and the rights of pro-
perty on the other.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It might he
aid that the twenty-five boroughs left at the Union would
still exist under this Bill, and true they would ; but
they would be swamped by a constituency which he
should not attempt to describe, though they had been
highly panegyrised by the Right Hon. Secretary. He
might state, however, that many of those persons who
would be entitled to vote in the boroughs under the 101.
qualification were merely keepers of lodging-houses, de-
Pendent upon charity for the qualification out of which
they would vote. Why so extensive a change was pro-
Posed in Ireland he could not conceive, unless it was that
his Majesty's Ministers, like Doctor Sangrado, who had
Only one cure for all complaints, had applied Reform to
Ireland, because they bad applied it to England, in defer-
ence to a party who had done them some service in that
House, at that great crisis, the passing of the English
Reform Bill, and who now boasted of the great services
they have conferred on the Ministry. If his Majesty's
Ministers bad mot been pressed by the Hon. Member for
Kerry and his party, in his (Lord Castlereagh's) opinion,
the House would have heard very little of the Irish Re-
form Bill.--(Hear, hear.) The extensive change which
the present Bill would effect in the representation of Ire-
land, he believed, had not been considered by those per-
sons by whom the measure was introduced. Pie had
endeavoured to form a calculation on the subject, which
he would read to the House.—[The Noble Lord here
read a list of 26 counties, 15 boroughs, and nine cities,
Which he considered it likely would return Roman
Catholic Members, or Members in the Roman Catholic
interest, uneer this Bill.] He calculated that 76 Catholic
Members weuld be returned at least; beside] which, he
believed in some other place the Catholic constituency
would have the power of turning the scale at elec-
tions, and thus returning a number disposed to support
their own views. The result of a change so extensive
would be, that the Hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. O'Con-
nell) would come down to that House, like a Scottish
Chieftain, " with his tail" of 80 Irish Members holding
the scale between any two parties in that House, and ex-
ercising an influence under which no Government could
be safely carried on. It was nut too much to anticipate
that, when this state of things had been produced, the
Irish and Scotch Members, disgusted with the influence
which the Irish Catholic Members exercised, would gladly
consent to the repeal of the Union, which was the fond
and anxious wish of the Hon. Member for Kerry.—
(Hear, hear.) There was another circumstance to which
he should allude, but without any invidious or illiberal
feeling- It was well known that, in many Roman
Catholic families in Ireland, maps and title-deeds of lands
formerly possessed by those families were preserved, in the
expectation that, at some future period, the dud of promise
Would be t ipened into the flower of possession, and that the
confiscated lands would be restored to them.—(Cheers,
and cries of " Name, name," from Mr. O'Connell.) The
Hon. anti Learned Member for Kerry called upon him to
name the families to whom he had alluded, but it was
hard to give names in support of general assertions.—
(Hear, bear, from Mr. O'Connell.) He believed the fact
be had stated could be easily proved, and he left it to the
Hon. Member for Kerry to deny it if he could.
Mr. O'CONNELL—That I do most most distinctly—
(Cries of Order.)
. . .

Lord CASTI;EREAGH resumed—He asked was Ire-
land at present in a situation which made it expedient to
try so extensive an experiment? Was it not in a state of
disorder and excitement? That Ireland was not peaceful,
and that the Roman Catholic Relief Bill had not produced
the beneficial consequences which its advocates anticipated,
was not, in his opinion, to be ascribed to the people of
Ireland generally, or to the great mass of the Catholic po-
pulation. The fault lay with those who had used the best
means for the worst purposes--with those who had excited
the worst passions, with those who fanned the flame of
religious hate, with unrelenting ardour, on which the Bri-
tish Legislature, in passing the Relief Bill, bad endea-
voured to sour the peaceful waters of eternal oblivion. He
was opposed to this Bill as a direct infringement of the
Act of Union, and he protested against it as a measure
which would be fatal to the interests of the Established
Church in Ireland and fatal to the future existence of t he con-
nexion between the two countries. Upon those consider-
ations, and believing that the present moment was most
unwisely chosen for flinging this torch of iucendiarism,
this new material of combustion, into a country so inflam-
mable as Ireland, lie should cordially second the motion
of his Honourahle and Learned Friend, (Mr. Lefroy,)
that the Bill should be read a second time on that day six
months.

Mr. CRAMPTON felt the difficulties which his Ma-
jesty's Government had to encounter on this question.—
They stood between two fires, and parties who disagreed
on every other point united in opposition to the measures
which were proposed for the advantage of Ireland. The
Noble Lord who had just sat down stated that he did not
blame the people of Ireland generally for the state of tur-
bulence and excitement which prevailed in that country,
but only those who by their efforts had excited and agi-
tated the minds of the people. Surely, then, the Noble
Lord had too high a sense of justice to visit upon the
people of Ireland the faults and errors of a few. As to
the calculations which the Noble Lord had made as to the
number of Catholic Members likely to be returned, he be-
lieved they were wholly unfounded. The Noble Lotd had
mentioned Cavan and Sligo as counties likely to return
Catholic Members, which proved that his calculation had
not been well considered.—(Hear, hear.) But what was
tiie remedy proposed for Ireland by the Nehle Lord, and
those with whom be acted ? Like Dr. Sangrado, whose
chief remedy was blood-letting, the only remedy the Noble
Lord had for Ireland was the Insurrection Act.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said he had never mentioned
a single word about the Insurrection Act.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. CRAAIPTON did not mean to attribute the senti-
iceots particularly to the Noble Lord, but to the whole
conservative party. That party always recommended
punishment and banishment—(Cries of "No, no") ; but
if the Noble Lord wished to do so, he (Mr. Crampton)
had no objection to disunite him from the conservative
party. His Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Leiroy), who
moved the amendment, had argued that the borough con-
stituency of Ireland ought not to he interfered with, as it
was pettectly lure, and that the present measure was
pregnant with t normous danger. Now, as to the system
o f nomination boroughs, whether it existed in England or

in Ireland, he contended that it was contrary to the law r,
the land, and ought to be abolished. The existence o
those close boroughs was a blot, for the removal of which
every friend to constitution it principles must be anxious
But he denied that the It is', boroughs were so pure as iu
was now sought to represent them. It was notorious that
seats for these boroughs had been bought and sold, and tha'
was a sufficient ground for giving them a more extende !
constituency. In many of the boroughs, however, there
was now a larger constituency; no persons, or but few
persons, would be entitled to vote as a 101. house-
holder, who was not already entitled to vote as a free
man. That Roman Catholics might possibly become
part of the borough constituency was, in his opinion,
a great recommendation to the measure, and one fron,
which no evil whatever was to be apprehended. H.
begged leave to mention one alteration which was to be
made in the Bill before the House. The most important
object, as he conceived, which the Bill was intended to
accomplish, was to diminish the expenses of elections.
According to the present law of elections in Ireland the
poll lasted for fifteen days. It was proposed by the ma-
chinery of the Bill that its duration should be limited to
five days at the furthest, ten days being cut off from the
period. There were some points relating to registration,
to which he should call the attention of the House in
Committee, but which he did not feel it necessary to enter
upon at present.
Mr. SHAW said that if this Bill were carried into
effect, and the influence at present possessed by property
were transferred to population, the effect would be to
overthrow the Established Church and institutions of Ire-
land, and to lead to a repeal of the Union. That such
objects were contemplated by those who were most clamo-
rous for Reform, he could unequivocally prove. Dr.M.Hale
had declared that when Reform should be carried, the
people of Ireland would petition for a total removal of all
their burdens, and leaving to England her favourite forms
of worship, would seek from a Reformed Parliament the
extinction of the Established Church. Dr. Doyle also
had said that his voice should never cease to denounce the
system to the hatred of mankind, until the Legislature
should have relieved Ireland from the oppression and
injustice of the Church. The Honourable and Learned
Member for Kerry had repeatedly proclaimed his de-
signs to overthrow the Union. Thus, that the de-
struction of the Church was aimed at, he had proved
by two of the highest ecclesiastical authorities amongst
the Catholics of Ireland, and that the Repeal of the Legis-
lative Union was designed, he had equally proved by the
highest lay authority. The measures of the Government,
too, seemed to encourage these projects. The yeomanry
had been decried by the Government and the magistracy
offended by them. The clergy had been reduced, if not
by the acts of the Government, certainly by their want of
activity, to the utmost poverty and distress. While the
rights of freemen were preserved, this Bill went to destroy
the rights of the freemen of Ireland.—(Hear from Mr.
O'Connell.) The Hon. Member might well cheer ; for
the position which he (Mr. Shaw) was endeavouring to
prove was, that the Government were doing the work at
the bidding of the Hon. Member. He could assure the
House, that he spoke with no hostile feeling towards the
Government. So far as personal feelings went, he should
be more disposed to support the present than the late Go-
vernment. But he could not look forward without alarm
to the consequences of their measures. His case was a
common one, and if it did not illustrate many others he
should not take the liberty of alluding to it. When the
present Government came into office, about eighteen
months ago, he held an independent office, and a prospect
of an independence for his children ; but lie declared that
if measures went on as at present he would be willing to
sell both for two years' purchase. I❑ this be was sure be
spoke the sentiments of nine-tenths of those who were
engaged in the administration of justice or interested in
the security of property. He feared that the Ministers
had dug the grave of England's glory, not only by the
measures which they had carried, but by the means which
they had taken to carry them. He would not yield even to
the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry in love for his
country, but he believed in his conscience that if this
Bill passed, that country would become a scene of bound-
less anarchy and endless bloodshed.
Mr. RUTHVEN said, that so far from this measure
tending to the severance of the connexion between the two
countries, he was sure, that without some regulation of the
Church establishment consistent with the interests and the
feelings of the people, that connexion could not be pre-
served. A Noble Lord had said that no case was madeout
to show the necessity of a Reform in Ireland. He need
only refer that Noble Lord to the town in the neighbour-
hood of which his own residence was situated for a refu-
tation of his assertion. The state of the representation of
Belfast was in itself a sufficient proof of the necessity of
Reform.

Colonel CONOLLY.—The Bill at present under con-
sideration was, in his opinion, of so pernicious a nature
that the Government could not have proposed a measure
for the Irish more calculated to fill up their cup of bitter-
ness to the brim. IThe Hon. Member was then proceeding
to offer some remarks upon the attempts which bad been
made by the Hen. Member for Kerry to effect the separa-
tion of Ireland from England, when he was called to
order by that Hon. Member, who reminded him that the
observations which he had made amounted to a charge of
treason.] The lion. and Gallant Member then expatiated
at some length upon the evil effects which the Bill would
produce in Ireland, and deprecated the extension of the
elective franchise to persons who would use it to their own
disadvantage. The 10/. house qualification would be a
much lower one than the 40s. freehold formerly was, and
he firmly believed that great part of Ireland would, if that
franchise were extended to it, be nothing more or less
than so many nomination boroughs at the disposition of
the Hon. Member for Kerry, who would thereby be
rendered a boroughmortger, with much more extensive
interest than was possessed by any individual at present.
The Government ought, therefore, to pause before a
measure was sanctioned, by which so great a power would
be intrusted to the hands of persons who were not calcu-
lated to use it to advantage.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he felt obliged to the
Hon. and Gallant Member for the exhibition which he had
made before the people of England of the nature of his
opposition to the Reform of the Irish representation.
What ! did the law, the property, the Church of Ireland,
and the connexion between the two countries depend ex-
clusively upon t`ae existence of thirteen rotten boroughs ?
(Hear, hear.) Would Protestantism be lost if thirteen
rotten boroughs were reformed ? The Irish nomination
boroughs were at present sold in the market to the best
bidder. Tralee was knocked down to a Yorkshire Knight,
Cashell to a West Indian of great respectability, and
another borough to a Scotch barrister equally respectable.
—(A laugh.) But he knew that Sir Thomas Denny, if
he had been offered 501. more b' a thorough-going Papist
for any one of his boroughs, he would have let him have
it, and sent the Scotch Advocate about his business.—(A
laugh.) He was compelled to say that the exhibition
which his countrymen had made that night was not very
creditable to the land of their birth. There was nothing
dignified—nothing philosophical in these arguments. There
had been a continual talk about Catholics arid Protestants.
--(Hear.) Upon a question connected with public liberty
and with the great movement which was being made
towards the amelioration of institutions and the procuring
of cheap national Government, the House had heard nothing
but a cant cry, fit only for the orgies of an Orange Lodge,
where a set of paltry bigots were conspiring to plunder a
little corporation coffer. Such conduct was unworthy of
and unbecoming in Irish Members ppon such an occasion.
The Hon. and Learned Recorder of Dublin had accused
him of being an enemy of the Established Church. He
denied that he was so. Perhaps he respected the church
more than the Hon. and Learned Recorder, because he
distinguished between the things that were God's and the
things that were Cresar's.—(Hear.) He had no respect
for tithes.—(Hear.) He denied that tithes were religion.
—(Hear.) He denied that money payments had any
connexion with the stability of the Church. He belonged
to a church in Ireland which was perfect in all its grada-
tions, It had a hierarchy, and its priests were beloved
by the people, and esteemed by all whose estimation was
worth preset ving. That church had existed for cen-
turies, not only in despite of persecution, but in the ab-
sence of any legal provision for its support, mad he hoped
that it would never be disgraced and degraded by having
a legal provision made for it. He did not hesitate to avow
that he was an enemy to tithes, to cess, and to the vestry
system, but be denied that he was the enemy of the Pro-
testant Church. On the contrary, he respected the opi-
nions of every Christian. He had lived a life of consi-
derable public exhibition ; he had never hid his opinions;
he had been before the public for thirty years, and he de-
fied any one of those who had watched him to produce
any sentiment uttered by him which was inconsistent with
perfect respect for the religious opinions of every class of
men. What he claimed for himself he demanded equally
for others, namely, the privilege of worshipping
God according to the dictates of his conscience.
He had heard that night much of what, if it had
not been uttered in that House, would have been
called cant and hypocrisy, respecting the introduction of
religion into politics. For the last 25 years the people of
Ireland had been struggling for an equality of rights, under
the influence of various feelings, but with the exception of
Dr. Drumgoole, not a single person who had taken part
in the public proceedings of the Catholic body had spoken
in bigotted terms of the Protestant religion ; and the lan-
guage which that individual employed called forth a tura-
.

° nimous vote of censure. Why did he mention these cir-
cumstances? Because it was the peculiarness of the de.
hate that it had been made a religious instead of a political
discussion. Instead of considering the best mode of pro-
curing popular Government for the people of Ireland,
I-lon. Members had been talking of the danger to Protes-
tantism.—(Hear, bear.) When he was considering a
question of this nature, he knew not who were Catholics
and who were Protestants. He carried his religious feel
ings only into the temple where he worshipped his God.
He would now quit this disagreeable subject. The Right
Hon. Secretary for Ireland had noticed a letter written by
him (Mr. O'Connell), in which he spoke of the Bill as
being a Conservative Bill, he used the phrase an Orange
Ascendency Bill, and one that would be supported by the
Tories. He did not object to the words which the Right
Honourable Gentleman had quoted, but to the man
nor in which he had quoted them. He (Mr. O'Con-
nell) was not speaking of the principle of the Bill in
that letter. He knew that the principle of the Bill
would be opposed, but the Right Hon. Secretary would find
that those who opposed the principle would support all
the details. The Solicitor-General for Ireland candidly
admitted that the details of the Bill were conservative, a
1 word which was substituted for ascendancy. He would
tell the Right Hon. Secretary, that the people of Ireland
would not, ought not, and he would humbly add, should
❑ot, be satisfied with a measure which was conservative.
In the name of the people of Ireland, he demanded equal
privileges with the people of England. In their name
he demanded that they should now be amalgamated with
the Constitution for the first time since the English Go.
vernment commenced in Ireland. The Hon. and Learned
Member proceeded to argue that the Right Hon. Secretary
was wrong in calculating that there were 52,000 voters
for counties in Ireland. There were only 25,000. Yet
the friends of the revolution of 1688 objected to the ex-
tension of the franchise to 52,000 persons, out of a popu-
lation of 8,000,000. The men who, at their orgies, were
wont to toast destruction to Popery and slavery, and the
memory of King William and liberty, now shrank from
the prospect of freedom. He would not call those persons
Protestants, for he knew that the great mass of his Pro-
testant fellow-countrymen shared with him in anxiety to
obtain civil liberty. England and Scotland were to have
representatives. Was it meant that Ireland alone should
have no Reform? A Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) had
talked something about Sangrado and bleeding. Ireland
had heard ere this of Lords' bleeding. She had experienced
it too. He was sorry that the Noble Lord, of all men,
should have introduced the question of blood. The surviving
friends and relations of many a victim would scream when i
they heard the name of the Noble Lord mentioned in con-
junction with bleeding. The Noble Lord and the Hon,
and Learned Member for the Univeraity of Dublin, would
give Ireland no Reform. The people of England and Scot-
land might have Reform, but the conservative party, the
Tories par excellence, would not grant it to Ireland, lest
it should increase the power of the agitators, and the de•
tuocratic party. Would these persons only consider what
would be the consequence of refusing Reform to Ireland ?
If he knew anything, he knew something of agitation.—
(Great laughter.) The only food upon which agitation
could exist, was a real grievance. Supposing the oppo-
nents of the Bill should succeed in obtaining a majority
against it, let him tell Ireland this story :—..." We, the
Irish Members in 1831, when the majority of English
and Scotch Members was against Reform, carried the
second reading of the Bill; after that we left our business,
our amusements, and the study of our health, to attend day
after day, and night after night, to vote for every addition
to English liberty and Scotch freedom. When the great
question arose between the Duke of Wellington and the
people of England, we thought not for an instant of the
grievances of our own country, but threw ourselves into
the breach ;—(Hear, hears)—and now having performed
all these services, the English House of Commons has
sent us back to tell you that they have refused to grant
you the paltry boon of a miserable jejune narrow Re-
form." The name of the 101. franchise had been given to
Ireland, but not the reality, for the Irish and English free-
holders, from the nature of their tenures and the dispropor-
tion between their respective means, stood in a position es-
sentially different. He claimed for his countrymen a
measure which, while it took nothing from those by whom
it was conceded, would add to their moral and political
rights. The 101 franchise in respect to houses was like-
wise, he contended, much too high, and he would appeal
to the judgment of Hon. Members whether, instead of be-
ing the instrument of Reform, it would not be productive
of corruption. There was Portarlington, which was for-
merly sold by a single proprietor; this borough would now
be sold by 100 owners, and for his part he would have
preferred the former mode of transfer, as being a gentle-
manly compact, free at least from the foul accompaniment
of drunkenness and perjury. And this was the democratic
measure that frightened so many of the Hon. Gentlemen
around him from "their propriety." Then there was
Dungarvon also, which had at present 640 votes—these
would reduced by the Bill to 200, whose votes would be in
the hands of the Duke of Devonshire—and this forsooth was
a popular measure of Reform. There was another ground of
complaint to which he would advert—namely, the registry
of votes. In England no man was called upon to show his
title unless by previous notice—in Ireland a scrutinizing
assistant-barrister examined it without any process being
served on the man who came to vote, calling for the pro-
duction of a single deed. The barrister might put inqui-
sitorial questions to the voter, and through vexatious liti.
gation shake his independence. In Ireland half-a-crown
was the sum paid for registry—in England it was a shil-
ling. Was this equality? Was this union? Could this
conduce to a coreinuance of the connexion between the
countries? Above all, was it calculated to support Pro-
testantism in Ireland? While he found so much to cen.
sure in the Bill before the House, still he should support
it, for the good it would effect. He would support
it, because it would strike down the Corporation of Dub-
lin—that body despicable in their bankrupt circumstances,
and disgusting for their corruption. He would support
it, because it would open the borough of Belfast, and give
the country the benefit of the commercial intelligence of
that enlightened and flourishing town, whose representa-
tive had hitherto been appointed by a Noble Marquess
(Donegall), like his groom or footman ; although he must
acknowledge that this power had been wholesomely exer-
cised in behalf of Reform. Enniskillen, he rejoiced to say,
would also be opened. In conclusion, he would designate
this measure as the first step taken in the course of 700
years for combining the people of Ireland with the Eng-
lizh constituency. It was the first act of justice to his
country, and it had not been dealt out like emancipation
with a grudging hand—a hand that took away one de-
scription of privileges at the moment when it conferred
another—a hand that had singled out himself as the ob•
jest of proscription.—(Hear.) Let them, he would say,
be generous in their offering—let the manly and munifi.
cent spirit of Britons enter into their measure of Reform.
The time had arrived for concentrating the three coun-
tries. England was free, Scotland was free, and let them,
he implored them, make Ireland free also.—(Cheers.)
Mr. J. E. GORDON opposed the opening of the bo-
roughs, as inconsistent with the maintenance of Protestant
ascendency in Ireland. He was one of those old-fashioned
bigots—(Deafening cheers from the Ministerial benches,
echoed by the Opposition)—who could still continue to
stand out for Protestant ascendency in Ireland—(Re-
newed cheering)—as being the basis of the integrity of
the British empire, however• it might be stigmatized by,
the radicals of the day—radicals did be say 7—the revo-
lutionists of the day.—(Hear, hear.) The Catholic Re•
lief Bill, as it was called, had been pro'essedly intended to
uphold the Protestant institutions in the neighbouring
island ; but now, from the progress of this Bill, and the
language of its advocates, it appeared that the Protestant
institutions were to be abandoned. The Hon. and Learned
Member who had just addressed them might be cheered
to that House by the huzzas of a county—lie might cross
its threshold as the representative of Whitefeet, or of
Blackfeet—of the midnight incendiary, and the mid-day
assassin—(Order, order)—while a Member• for a close
borough might represent the religious, and moral, and
constitutional principles of the country.—(Cries of " Oh,
oh !") By resisting concession they would serve that
portion of the Irish people who might be termed the con-
necting link between the two countries ; but he had no
hesitations in saying, that if they passed this Reform Bill,
they would shake the confidence of Irish Protestants in
English legislation, while they would at the same time fail
in conciliating the Catholic body.
Mr. SHELL had sympathized most heartily i❑ the en-
deavours of this great and magnanimous nation to gain
the restitution of its rights, and as an Irishman had felt
as deep an interest in the success of the English Reform
Bill as he did with regard to the measure before the House.
What, he would ask, was the state of the Irish representa-
tion ? The Hon. Member for Dundalk (Mr. J. E. Gor-
don)l himself presented a perfect specimen of that repre-
sentation. He did not mean to speak disrespectfully of
the Hon. and Gallant Member as an individual, he be-
lieved he 'night be quite sincere in his opinions; but be
would say, that if he were the concentrated spirit, the
aromatic essence of Protestantism—(A laugh)—he might
have selected a more appropriate place to represent than a
town containing 13,000 Catholic inhabitants. What, he
would again inquire, was the state of the Irish represen-
tation? Why were eleven boroughs i❑ Ireland represented
by Englishmen, not one of whom had the most remote
connexion with the land ? Ought this system to con-
tinue ? If Reform be granted to England and denied to
Ireland, the effect would be to raise the price of boroughs

in the Irish Parliamentary bazar.—(A laugh.) The
question was not whether they would concede Irish Re-
form, but whether or not they should permit the Irish
boroughs to send in nominees to that House to mingle
wopfractrhiceapi people--rpos(eH:tahre,
eiatrla
ht heea
rg)e_n uainnde
erxeeprreeisseen tfoartiv easi
l same privileges as would be exercised by Mem-
bers for places in England. It was one advantage derived
from the Union, that England could not inflict wrong
upon them without injury to herself. The two nations
were united by the Siamese knot, and so long as the liga-
ture remained uncut, together they must thrive ar.d to-
,e-ether they must die. He denied that the whole of the
boroughs would be thrown into the hands of a Roman Ca-
tholic democracy, and he challenged those who made the
assertion to produce their proof. Hon. Members talked
of maintaining Protestant ascendency; but the ascendency
They would maintain was that of an aristocracy less
tolerable far than the aristocracy of birth—a religious
and sectarian aristocracy.—(Hear, hear.) The surest
way to prevent the agitation of the Repeal question was to
grant to Ireland an efficient measure of Reform, and he be-
lieved that the great body of the people of England were
now determined that Ireland should have such a Reform.
It was important that this point should be conceded, be-
cause the moment such a measure was agreed to, an end
swisotuld be put
edberween tEontghloasnee
djaalou
ndlsie
Ireland.—(Hear,
whichand .—(laHae(al
rt,oho long
ear. su
Hebre-
he thought he might introduce, with propriety, a quota-
tion from an old book, which was very applicable to this
subject. Two individuals were described as conversing on
political subjects, and one of them advocated the propriety
of increasing the number of Irish freeholders. " You say
well," replied the other, "by the increase of freeholders,
the numbers of those who were favourable to the
English interest would be augmented ; but how are
you to carry such a measure through the higher
House?" His companion answered, " Edward 111.
was at the time so bearded by the clergy, that he could
not order his kingdom as he desired ; he therefore made a
great number of Barons, and so many Barons were made
as enabled him to proceed according to his wishes, and
overpower those who were unruly."—(Hear, hear.)
Whether there were any unruly Irish Lords at present, he
did not know ; but if it were found expedient, in the
case of the English Bill, to determine on the adoption of
a strong measure, he hoped that the same determination
would be manifest with respect to the Irish Bill. He
trusted that no hesitation would be shown in providing for
the safety of that measure; not for the purpose cf swamp-
ing—(Hear, hear)—as it was called, another branch of
the legislature--(Hear, hear)—but for the purpose of pre-
serving entire, and in an improved state, the Constitution
itself.—(Hear, hear.) Who was it that opposed the mea-
sure of Reform ? Not the ancient nobility of the empire,
but a long marshalled mass of accumulated partisans, com-
posed of ecclesiastics, who wielded the crosier for political
purposes—of Scotch Peers, who were influenced wholly
by Tory interest—and by a body of Nobles who had been
created for party purposes by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Perceval.
--(Hear, hear.) He, in the name of his country, called
for the same Bill for Ireland as was about to be given to
England. He demanded only justice—imperishable justice.
At that moment, when a minister had given up his office
in order to preserve his honour, and had returned to it
amidst the nation's applause—at that moment when
the Monarch and his people were alike actuated by
the same feelings—at that moment it became Eng-
land to act an exalted and generous part.—(Hear,
hear.) "We have shared with you in your perils, let
us now share with you in your success."—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. G. DAWSON said, he had listened to the speech
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry (Mr. O'Con-
nell) with the greatest attention, and a speech less distin.
guished by statesmanlike views or feelings he had never
heard. It was throughout a speech of taunt and sarcasm—
a speech in which many of the institutions of the country
were attacked. He was sorry to say that the speech of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Louth (Mr. Shiel) partook
of the same description of feeling. He was, however,
bound to admit the truth of the argument they bad both
put forth—namely, that, if nomination boroughs were de-
stroyed in England, they must, of necessary consequence,
be abolished in Ireland, because if that were not done,
there would be a scene of endless agitation in that country .
The Hon. and Learned Member for Louth had, by making
an attack on the Hon. Member for Dundalk, given a
species of religious complexion to this question. His ob-
servation had nothing to do with the subject before the
House ; and when the Hon. and Learned Member accused
the Hon. Member for Dundalk with causing, in a great
degree, the agitation which prevailed in Ireland, he (Mr.
Dawson) would say, that the cause of that agitation was in
reality to be traced to the speeches delivered in that House
by the Hon. Members for Louth and Kerry. The Hon.
Member for Kerry did not, however, act with so
much discretion as the Honourable Member for Louth,
who confined his labours to that House. No : the
Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry endeavoured to
excite agitation by speeches in Manchester, and Liver-
pool, and elsewhere, He was perfectly convinced, that if
this Bill were passed, the doom of the Protestant Church
in Ireland was sealed.—(Hear, hear.) He would allow
the gentlemen opposite to enjoy the triumph which they
had gained--a triumph over the good sense of the people,
over the House of Lords, and over the Munarch.—(Hear,
hear.) But he would advise them, in the midst of
their exultation, to imitate the example of those ancient
conquerors of whom they read in history, who, when
they had gained a victory, were in the habit of directing
that certain slaves should stand behind their chairs to
warn them against indulging their triumphant feelings
too much, since it was not impossible that reverses might
finally overtake them.—(Hear.) There were slaves he-
hind.—(" Hear, hear," and " Order, order.") He did
not mean in that House.—(Cheers, and cries of "
oh.") And he wished those slaves behind would give the
warning to which he had alluded.—(Hear, hear.) He
believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had intro-
duced this measure had already repented of the step he had
taken. He had been baited by the 31 gentlemen who
pretended to be his friends, on the occasion of the tithe
question, in a manner which induced him (Mr. Daw-
son) to pity the Right Hon. Gentleman. But when that
number was swelled to 60, how much more pitiable
would be the situation of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man ! The effort of that party would, undoubtedly, be
to establish a Catholic ascendency in Ireland, and then
such a state of irritation and of violence would be pro-
duced between the two parties as must render the interfe-
rence of this country indispensable.—(Hear, hear.) The
Protestants of Ireland were a determined body of men—
when once they drew the sword they threw the scabbard
away. They had formerly successfully opposed a Roman
Catholic King and his Roman Catholic forces, although
aided by England ; and if ever the time should come when
they should be called on to defend their rights, they would
be ready to do so. For his own part, he should, at such a mo-
ment, be found acting with his Protestant fellow-subjects.
Mr. H. GRATTAN regretted to see so much irritation
displayed on a question like the present. It was a ques-
tion between right and wrong, and the House had to de-
cide whether Members were to be returned by an inconsi-
derable or by an adequate constituency. To take a single
instance :—The constituency of Dundalk was at present
32 ; under the Reform Bill it would be 650. The altera-
tion was sufficient to account for the Hon. Member's (Mr.
J. E. Gordon) hostility to the Bill. He might here ob-
serve, that whether this measure passed or not, the Irish
people would never be satisfied till they obtained laws simi-
lar to those of England, and an equal administration of
justice. He should vote for the second reading, hoping to
see the Bill receive in Committee some amendments, of
which he was of opinion it stood in need; but the present
was not the proper time to particularize them.
Sir R. PEEL had experienced considerable difficulty in
making up his mind as to the course which it was his
duty to adopt relative to this measure. He admitted that
as the House had sanctioned the principle of the abolition
of nomivation boroughs in England, it might seem right
tat follow the example in Ireland; and if he could have
entertained any expectation of the amendments which he
considered necessary being adopted in the Committee, he
might have refrained from offering any opposition to the
Bill in its present stage ; but no hope was held out of any
such amendments. Looking at the state of Protestant
property in Ireland, he did no think it could be fairly re-
presented under this Bill, the principle of which he also
11nardi.i
particularlyda, snojatop
counties, considered hostile to the Established Church. Even at
erlolofforofthwreheichcooline
present, property was not adequately represented in
referredlre-
land i
o t
two
00
otfh elsrileiteuhrn
the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman possessed no property.
accomplishing
The case would be worse under tills Bill. Besides, he
could not but feel apprehension at such a measure,
edw
bh
ee n
onlytl ae
soughtHonourable
R efotand m
as La errairenaends
towardsG entl e
the dissolution of the Legislative Union
between the two countries. If he (Sir Robert Peel)
believed the Bill would confer real benefit on Ireland, be
would be the first to adopt it, but no proof had been offered
to show that it would he attended with the slightest ad-
vantage. The arguments of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman in favour of Reform as a means to the accomplish-
ment of ulterior objects, of which he (Sir R. Peel) disap.
proved, were in themselves sufficient to justify his opposi-
tion to the present measure. The Hon. Gentleman who
spoke last called for the same laws for Ireland as existed in
England
; would the Hon. Gentleman have the same
taxes? In looking at the effect of this measure, be ad.
mitted it was difficult to put out of consideration the con.

Total of Meal and
Flour ,

15,756 1 14

573 0 19

1F,329 2 5

Quantities charged with Duty for Home Con-
sumption in the United Kingdom in the
Month ended May 1, 1832.
Species of Corn, p'
The Produce
Grain Meal, and
of, and Im.
lour.
Imported from ported from,
Foreign British Posses- Total.
Countries. sions out of
Europe.
Qrs. Bus. Qrs. Bus. Qrs. Bus.
Wheat 2,495 3 7,955 2 10,450 5
Barley 10,292 5 - 10,292 5
Oats 1,768 4 - 1,768 4
Rye 25 7 - 25 7
Pease 3 2 - 3 2
Beans 1 1 - 1 1
Maize or Indian
Corn - 50 0
Buck Wheat lOO 2 - 100 2
Beer or Bigg - - -
Total of Corn and
Grain
Cwts. qrs. lb. Cwts. qrs. lb. Cwts. qrs. lb.
Wheat Meal, or
Flour 246 1 25 6,583 2 2 6,829 3 27
Barley Meal - - -
Oatmeal - - -
Rye Meal - - -
Indian Meal - - -
Total of Meal and
Flour 246 1 25 6,593 2 2 6,829 3 27
- - -- --
Quantities remaining in Warehouse in the
United Kingdom on May 1, 1832.
„.............11111-.---.........••••••••••=41.......,
Species of Corn, The Produce
Grain, Meal, and of, and Im.
Flour. Imported from ported from,
Foreign British Posses. Total.
Countries. sions out of
Europe.
----.
Qrs. Bus. Qrs. Bus. Qrs. Bus.
Wheat 614,387 6 66,325 2 680,712 2
Barley 13,883 0 - 13,863 0
Oats 271,045 0 - 271,045 0
Rye 8,573 4 - 8,573 4
Pease 1,204 3 - 1,204 3
Beans 17,411 5 - 17,411 5
Maize or Indian
Corn 926 5 - 926 5
Buck Wheat 1,211 2 - 1,211 2
Beer or Bigg - - -
Total of Corn and
Grain
Cwts. qrs. lb. Cwts. qrs. lb. Cwts. qrs. lb.
Wheat Meal, or
Flour 629,143 318 20,033 9 4 649,177 2 22
Barley Meal B2 2 11 - 92 2 11
Oatmeal 27 1 9 76 1 26 103 3 7
Rye Meal - - -
Indian Meal 1 3 0 - 1 3 0
Total of Meal and
Flour 629,255 210 20,110 1 2 649,365 3 12

1629,255 2 10

120,110 1 2

849,365 3 12

By order of the Commissioners,
C. A. SCOVELL, Secretary.
Custom-house, London, May 22, 1832.

LONDON MARKETS.

LONDON MARKETS.
(From the London New Price Current of yesterday.)
COFFEE.—Foreign and East India Coffees are about Is.
higher ; Jamaica and other British Plantation descriptions about
2s. lower this week. By private contract there is more inquiry
for Foreign and East India, at improving prices—very ordinary
St. Domingo having been sold at 58s. a 58s. 6d., and about 800
bags good ord. at 60s. ; Sumatra, brown low good ord. from 525.
a 525. 6d. The public sales consisted of 798 casks British Plan-
tation, 190 brls Foreign, 1,241 bags 38 brls East India, which
were knocked down at the following prices :—Jamaica, ord. 735.
a 745., good ord. 755. a 765., fine ord. 775. 6d. a 785., brown mid.
79s.—Dominica, fine ordinary, 775. a 78.5. ; St. Domingo, good
ord. was sold at 59s.—Sumatra (not clean) ord. sold at 525. good
ord. 535. &I.—Mocha, yellowish, good ord. sold from 775. a 7Ss.
6d. ; 288 casks 52 brls British Plantation have been reported
since last week. The demand for Coffee continued up to a late
hour, and the advance stated is fully supported. By public
sale this day only a few lots of East India and Mocha Coffee, too
inconsiderable for enumeration.

SUGAR.—The Sugar Market has been very steady all the
week ; the estimate purchases arc 4,000 hhds. and trs. ; the
brown descriptions 495. a 51s. are a shade higher, on account of
the retail trade requiring Sugars at 6d. per lb. ; all other de-
scriptions are unvaried in price. The Market this afternoon
has been exceedingly brisk, and the prices are fully Is. higher
than on Tuesday; few browns now offer under 50s. At the
close of this week there is an improved demand for the Ham-
bro' Market, and several parcels of Lumps were bought at for-
mer prices—viz. ord. large at 645. tid. good large 655., and good
small 665. a 675. ; the Market not being sufficiently well sup-
plied for the orders of the buyers has had the effect of in-
creasing the demand of the refiners, who will not now part
from ord. large lumps under 655, which price was paid for a
few small parcels. At the end of last week fine crushed (small
contracts) were sold at 335. tid. but this price is still about 2s.
above the general orders at present on hand. This afternoon
the Market has been well cleared of goods, both for the export
and home consumptions ; no parcels of lumps now under 655. ;
Molasses Ns. 6d. and `2ss.

EAST INDIA SUGARS.—About 2,000 bags Siam, 2616
bags Manilla, and 158 bags Bengal, were brought to the ham_
finerthis week ; the Siams were all sold, but went rather cheaper,
yellow, I9s. a 20s. 6d. damp, 17s. a 19s. ordinary white, 235. and
s. 3d., damp ditto, 225. Gd. good white, 255. ordinary ditto,
235. Gd. a 245. 6d. ; Manilla, good yellow, 255. a 255. 6d, ; ord.
ditto, 235. 6d. a 245. 6d. ; about one-third was bought in from
2.55. Gd. a 265. ; Bengal good white sold at 265. 6d. damp ditto,
tid. ordinary white, 245. 6d. damp ditto, 235. 6d. At Wed-
nesday's public sale of Mauritius several lots were bought in,
holders not being inclined to submit to any reduction ; the rest,
however, went off with little or no variation. Brown and lou
yellows cohtinue to bring comparatively better rates than the
good and fine descriptions. The quantity offered by auction
since last Friday consists of about 10,000 bags, leaving no very
heavy stock in first hands; and as this stock is confined to a
few houses who are not anxious to press sales, it is not probable
that any further depreciation will for the present take place ;

Kent

the following are the prices obtained_good JPe It. • 041
:I. a 495. 6d. low yellow, 495. middling yellow,;soo:Vd:a A.'
ood yellow, 525. a 525. 6d, fine yellow, 54r40d ancl.4 ' • 4r
ow, 545. good and fine white, 575. 9d. a 58s. 12,
4,5. • „..
.rey, 50s. 51s. good grey, 525. a 545. 6d. fine,' '
.. A
ivals since our last are only 4,009 ba Afsolgilk, ''
1,929 bags Mauritius sold with brisknes vir-i3O, gwirt
1
;esterday; 362 bags Siam sold Gd. higher.,,, 75110-r,- •-"•',01:10x..„„_;
FOREIGN SUGARS.--No public sales 'Uri g,", \' • '`' '
fl-ought forward this week, and there being at pfesp Iftittf 1_ -
parcels on show, the transactions were very limited i 'amt- a
chests good yellow Havannah, but soft, were taken at 4255. ; for
~rown Pernams and Bahia 235. had been offered, and for white
Pernams of mid. colour, 2Ss. could be obtained ; at these prices,
however, there are no sellers ; Bahias are in very general re_
quest, and command a ready sale.
WEST INDIA MOLASSES.—SeveraI parcels sold, good
265. a 275., inferior 255. 6d.

5

RUM, BRANDY, AND HOLLANDS.—The Rum Market
is still very dull; few purchases are reported. In Brandy or
Geneva there is no alteration.

HEMP, FLAX, AND TALLOW.—The Tallow Market
has given way, sales reported at 41s. 6d., since which the
market has rather given way ; the nearest price this evening is
41s. 3d. a 41s. 9d. This afternoon by public sale 49 bales
East India Sunn Hemp 27/, 155., 153 bales Italian Hemp
38/. Ss. a 384 10s.

IRISH PROVISIONS.—The supply of Foreign Butter i's
fully equal to the demand ; Emden and Leer can be bought at
the quay of very good quality at 765. a 78s„ Holstein at 80s.,
and the finest Friesland at 845. a 86s. per cwt.: for new Irish
Butter there is at present a ♦ery limited inquiry ; good assort.
inents of Limerick, now on the passage, are offering at 87N. a
88s., and Waterford prime brands at 86s. on board, for shipment
both descriptions are ineffectually offering at 84s. on board
Bacon landed meets a fair sale at last quoted prices, but on
board feW sales making. All other articles under this head re.
main, as to price, as quoted in our last.

COTTON.—The Cotton Market is firm. 700 Surat, ordi-
nary 41a d., good 5 d. ; 840 ditto, public sale, very ordinary
4d., ; 120 Bengal, ordinary good, 4 Nd. ; 1,750 Ma-
dras, public sale, good fair 4 good 474 d. ; 300 bowed, fair
5 %cl., good 6 d. This day's public sale, 1,867 bales Surat
Cotton, ordinary to good fair all sold 414 d. a sd. ; the fine sold
lower; all other descriptions at previous prices.
SALTPETRE.—SaItpetre is dull, and a shade lower. This
day's public sales 5,617 bags sold at previous prices ; 12 to PR
refraction 265., up to 31s. for fine quality refraction 2 y. 2.
SlLK.—There is more disposition to purchase, but we can.
not quote any improvement in prices.

ASHES.—By public sale yesterday, 399 brls. Canada Pot
Ashes 265. 6d., 976 brls. Canada Pearl Ashes 264.
FRUIT.—A public sale of 86 butts and 39 caroteels Patras
Currants (partly damaged) was brought forward on Wednesday ;
the sound was chiefly bought in at 695. to 70s. tor butts, and
70s. for caroteels, the quality being only of a mid. description ;
the damaged sold at 675. to 68s. for butts ; a parcel of 384 brls.
inferior Eleme Raisins was also offered, but bought in at 405.,
and 83 brim. very ord. Black Smyrnas at 325.

SPICES.-190 bags Pimento were offered by public sale,
which found buyers, mid. at 534 d. a 5 %d., being rather a
shade lower. The sales of Pepper consisted of 3,005 small bags
126 bags mid. heavy sold from 3 4d. to 3 %d., the rest being
heavy unsifted Malabar, sold at 3fs d, to 4d. This day's sale
107 bags Pimento sold at previous prices, mid. 5 %41. a 534 d.
RIGE.—The sales offered 8,202 bags Bengal, which sold,
ordinary whites from 13s. to 145., good whites, Patna kind, 155.,
being rather lower. This day's sale 700 bags Bengal Rice, all
taken in.

INDIGO.—There is no alteration in the Indigo Market ;
the small sales are chiefly for export. A good parcel of Gua-
tamala Indigo, partly damaged, nearly all solid, chiefly for ex-
portation, 100 serons from 2s. 7d. a 4s. 2d. ; 12 boxes of infe-
rior quality, and in nnusual packages, sold from 2s. to 2s. 2d.
per lb.

TEA.—Boheas are a shade dearer; Congou che,ts are at
4s. ltd. per lb., duy paid. In other sorts there is no alteration,
and but little doing.

OlLS.—This afternoon by public sale 173 pipes tine Cocoa
Nut Oil, 301. a 311. greater part bought in.

SMITHFIELD MARKET.
PRICES PER STONE OF SLIM TO SINK THE OFFALS.
s. d. toe. d. s. d. toe. d.
Inferior Beasts 202 21 Large Lambs 00 0 0
Second quality ditto 2 8 3 0 Prime small ditto... 5 5 510
Prime large Oxen... 3 4 3 61 Large coarse Calves 3 2 3 4
Prime Scots, &c..... 3 6 3 8, Prime small ditto... 4 2 4 4
Inferior 5heep....... 2 6 210 Large Hogs '3 6 3 8
Second quality ditto 3 0 3 4 Small Porkers....... 4 2 4 8
Coarse-woolledditto 3 8 4 0 Suckling Calves 12s. to2os. ea, h.
SnalidownWethers 4 2 4 4 Quarteroldpigs 12s. to 188. ea, 1,.

SUPPLY, AS PER CL
Beasts. 'Sheep and Lamb
394 9,240

:It RK'S STATEMENT.
)9.1
Calves, Pigs.
I
297 l3O

DENH ALL MARKETS.
by the Carcass.

NEWGATE AND LEA
At per stone, '
s. d. to s. d. s. d.tos. 4.
2 2 2 4 1 Mutton, inferior 2 4 2 8
2 4 2 8 - middling 3 0 3 2
3 0 3 2 - prime 3 6 310
3 0 3 4 Pork, large '3 4 4 2
3 0 4 4 -small 3 8 4 8
........ 4c 4d. to 58 Bd.

Beet, inferior
- middling
- prime large
- prime small
Veal
Lamb

PRICE OF SUGAR.
The Average Price of Brown or Muscovado Sugar, computed
from the Returns made in the week ending the 29. d day of
May, 1832, is 265. Ild. per Hundred Weight, exclusive of the
Duties of Customs paid or payable thereon on the Importation
thereof into Great Britain.

PRICES OF HOPS.—May 25.
Kent Pockets, 5l ss. 61. 9.5. to
Sussex Ditto
Ilsiez Ditto 5l. Os. 61. Os. to
Farnham Ditto. 91. Os. 121. Os. to
Seconds Cl. Oa. 71. Os to
41. 10s. 5/. 15s to
41. 4s. 51. Os. to
Os. Cl. Os. to

Sussex Ditto
Essex Ditto..

8!. Os.
6t. Os.
71. Os,
0/ Os.
9! Os.
6/. 10s.
5/. 12..
0!. Of.