The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-30 00:00:00

land will not permit such abominations in the land to continue.
At any rate, whatever they may do with my seat, I entertain a
better opinion of them than to entertain any fear as to the ge-
neral result; and I now warn those who are for supporting all
abuses, and resisting all compromises, to look out, and reflect
for a moment or two on the terms they are likely to get on a
future occasion."__( Loud cheers.)
Mr. GO CrLBURN rose to order. T-ne I-lon. Member had
no right to impute motives to his '.ton. Friend. He had charged
him with a wish to support :.oases.—(Oh, oh,)
Mr. HUME—I am not accusing any Member of motives.
I say that there ar':: certain abuses in- existence, and that there
area certain or-rty who support them.—(Cheers.) I do not
attribute oritives to the Right Hon. Gentleman in particular,
or to his Hon. Friend. I believe the Right Hon. Gentleman
is conscientious in his opposition ; and I am at a loss to con-
ceive that anything has taken place to-night which warrants
him in supposing that I have imputed improper motives to any
individual.—( Har, hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. LEFROY and Mr. S. F, You o,
the Ist resolution was agreed to.
Lord MORPETH then proposed the 2d resolution, sanc-
tioning the imposition of a charge of 50,000/. on the Conso-
lidated Fund, for the purposes of general education among all
classes of his Majesty's subjecs in Ireland, without religious
distinction. On the resolution being put,
Mr. G MILBURN while he thanked the Noble Lord for
this alteration in his original Bill, must beg to offer a few ob.
servations on the resolution. In the first place, it anticipated
the existence of no surplus at all ; for, it. there were to
one, what occas'on would there be for the Noble
Lord's coming forward with anv such proposition as the
present ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Hitherto, the grants for
educational purposes in Ireland had been made an-
nually, in order that Parliament might express its opi-
nion upon them and control the expenditure, but by the
present vote the House was called upon to enact permanently
a payment of 50,0001. a year annually, for educational pur-
poses, without any annual control, without the possibility of
revoking its decision, or of altering any part of the arrange-
ment.---( Hear, hear.) This grant, however, he would not
object to, were it not accompanied with the sacrifice of the
Established Church. Eight hundred and sixty benefices (esti-
mated at 58,0001.) were to be sacrificed for securing the re-
payment of the sum ; but the Noble Lord had saddled the
fund he proposed to raise with annual charges so far exceed-
ing its amount, that in lieu of having any thing in the re-
served fund, he would find himself in the present instance, as
he had in that of the perpetuity fund, annually more and more
in debt. What charges had the Noble Lord engaged to de-
fray out of it? In the first place, he had introduced a pretty
large charge into the Bill, which he (Mr. Goulburn) ad-
mitted ought in justice to prevail. The Noble Lord said,
that in cases in which the benefices to be suppressed were the
property of lay patrons, the fund was to provide for the pur-
chase of the permanent interest of those lay patrons. Accord-
ing to the Noble Lord's account of the 860 benefices, the va-
lue of the livings in the gift of lay patrons was no less than
150,0001., the whole of which amount must be defrayed out of
the Reserved Fund before it was applicable to any ulterior
purposes. The payment for glebe-houses would also amount
to a very considerable sum. Add to this, the provision which
the Noble Lord wished to make for curates at 1001. a year
a-piece in certain parishes, and other charges, and he would
ask any man who had the power of calculation whether there
was the slightest reasonable prospect of any surplus whatever?
He had originally expressed his intention of not troubling the
House on this Bill ; but this new proposition of the Noble
Lord had imposed upon him the necessity of offering a few
observations to it.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Right Hon. Gent.
had shown that he was angry ; but his anger proceeded not so
much from the objections which he felt to this clause as to his
feeling that the introduction of the clause took away one of the
principal arguments made use of by Hon. Members who op-
posed this measure. He did not wonder to find the Right
lion. Gent. sore upon the subject of the introduction of this
provision, since he must be sensible that it would do away with
all chance of the fulfilment of all those murders and assassina-
tions which had been foretold by Hon. Members as the effect
of the clause which provided that in parishes where there were
not fifty Protestants, the appointment of a clergyman would
be suspended. Then the Right Hon. Gent. said that there
would be no surplus. Now, as far as the Government could
see, the amount which the reserved fund would derive from
the suspension of livings would be 86,0001., from which was to
be deducted 28,0001., to satisfy immediate claims upon the
fund ; so that a surplus of 56,0001., or thereabouts, might be
safely relied upon. It was not an extravagant proposition
to say that from fifty to sixty thousand a year would ultimately
arise to the reserved fund from the suspended livings.—
( Hear, hear.) He thought, therefore, that this was a per-
fectly fair proposition, and at the same time that it did not
alter any of the main propositions of the Bill, it removed one
of the principal objections urged upon the other side of the
House against it.---(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN, in explanation,
Sir HENRY HA RDINGE said that although he did not
oppose the granting of a sum of 50,000/. for the purpose of
education to the people of Ireland, still he did not consider
that it should be granted in this indirect manner ; neither did
he consider the guarantee which this Bill afforded an honest
or bona fide guarantee.
Lord MORPETH said, that so far was the Government
from overstating the amount of the surplus to be reckoned
upon, that he was convinced the surplus, if the Bill passed in
its present shape, would be much larger than was reckoned
upon.--( Hear, hear. )
Mr. HORACE TWISS said, that although the Noble
Lord the Secretary for Ireland, and the gentlemen who sup-
ported the Government, had stated that they would not stand
upon figures, and would not say that a surplus would actually
cant, yet they now came down and called upon the House
to advance 50,0001. upon the security of that surplus. It had
been even said by the promoters of the measure, that if there
was no surplus, that part of the provisions of the Bill would
be at an end ; yet now it was proposed that Ireland should
enjoy a surplus which did not, and probably would never
exist. He would ask if this expected surplus was a proper
security for the public money ?—( Hear, hear.) He would
ask if it was proper to advance the money of the people of
this country on the security of a surplus which not only was
admitted by the Government themselves to be doubtful, but
which, if there was truth in figures, probably never would ar-
rive, and at all events could not arrive for years to come ? If
50,000/. had been asked by the Government from the general
income of the country, for the purpose of educating the ma-
k/thy of the people of Ireland, he would not have objected to
it ; but he. thought it too vouch to say that the whole amount
to be granted for that purpose should be taken from the
pockets of' persons who did not believe in the tenets of
that religion for whose benefit it was intended. He consi
dcred this proposition simply as a struggle to spoliate the
Established Church, and transfer its revenues to another
religion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied that
the people of England had to complain even if this sum were
lost, which he denied that it would he. Let the House con-
sider what sums had been paid from the public purse to the
charities of England.—( fiear, hear, hear.) If the grants
made to those schools alone were recovered, they would go
far towards the education of the people of Ireland. Let it
be considered too, what sums were granted to the Protestant
chartered schools and the Foundling Hospitals of Dublin.—
(Hear, hear.) Up to 1829, the amount granted to the former
of those institutions was 723,0001., and to the latter 787,0001.,
snaking a total of 1,510,0001., which was paid to those insti-
tution out of the general taxation of the country. Now this
was done by the lion. Gentleman opposite during the years
they were in office—(hear, hear)—and if only a per centage
of it could now be recovered (which was impossible) it would
go far towards the education of the Irish Catholics. With
respect to the education of the Irish people, all were agreed
as to the necessity of it; the only difference of opinion being
as to the mode in which that education should be provided
for. He thought the proposed plan was the best, and he
should therefore support the proposition.
Mr. PRINGLE thought that the system of education
adopted in Ireland, instead of improving the Catholics, was
calculated to drive them deeper into superstition.
Mr. PEASE supported the grant.
Mr. SHAW was still of opinion that the numbering of the
people of Ireland who followed any particular religion would
lead to the most disastrous consequences. He did not think
that the Noble Lord had fairly met the objections offered to
the proposition by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulburn)
for the objection was not the payment of 50,000/. for the pur-
pose of education this year or any future year, but the objec-
tion was to that provision of the Bill which said that where
there were not fifty Protestants the Established Church should
cease to exist.
Mr. C. FERGUS SON then rose, but his first observations
were uttered in so low a tone, that it was impossible to follow
them. We understood him to say that he thought the Noble
Lord had done rightly in showing to the people of Ireland that
the surplus expected from this Bill was not a delusion. lion.
Gentlemen opposite constantly said that there would be no
surplus; but he had carefully looked into the matter, and he
was satisfied that there would be a considerable surplus.—
( Hear, hear.) In the first instance the money was to be ad-
vanced out of the Consolidated Fund, and was afterwards to
be repaid. It was, therefore, a gross fallacy and atten;pt at
delusion, to say that it would come out of the pocke.is of the
people.
Mr. JACKSON thought that it had been de_meestr-ated be-
yond alaril power of cavilling, that no surplus could 'oy any sibility se under this Bill ; and he , doubt in his pos_n
mind that it was in consequence of .
down with the present nropo-
, t ction of this kind
convi no
that the Government had come
sition. He contended that
the system of educaon which was
to be promoted by this turn of 50,000/. a yearti could not be
called a national system of education without the grossest per-
version of language. It was, in point of fact, a Roman Ca-
tholic system of education.—(Hear, hear.) Was it, then,
surprising that the Protestants of Ireland had no confidence in
it? He did not place much reliance in the present Govern-
ment; but he was satisfied that the Noble Lord and his col-
leagues would no longer countenance the new system of edu-
cation if they knew what it really was. In a place with
which he was acquainted in the county of Cork, one of their
schools was Kept within a convent. Mr. Inglis, in his " Tour
in Irelso4d," also states that in Galway one of the schools con-
nected with the new Board of Education was conducted in a
tonvent under the superintendence of the nuns. were the instructors of the youth attendin These nuns
P the school, and all
the forms of the Roman Catholic religion were observed. Ho
protested against the proposition that the continuance of the
performance of the religion of the State in a parish should de-
- 4011d—t*the numbers--(Hear, hear.) The principle of pro-
portion, wwnost pernicious, and if acted upon would lead to
the most tiliachievaus consequences.—(Hear, hear.) The
livg 0' Protifiti,nts, when scattered among a Roman Catholic
popol.ation,*euld be endangered by it. He did not mean to
mtke sey 'Week on the character of the lower classes of his
,
do?

countrymen, but every body must be aware that they were pc- '
culiarly open to excitement. They possessed many good
qua-
lities, but they also possessed others which he could not praise.
ilt was a fact notorious to any one that in some parts of re -
land, a fair was never held without great disturbances and
oven homicidal offences.
_— non. Gentlemen oppo-
con
continued to repeat that there would
,
Lord M 0 RPETI-br observed_ I thn.
site, one after the et
be no sur-t hmusttherefore trouble the House with once
e
snore stating the grounds wh he entertained the opinion he
had adopted, although by so doing he might run the risk of
fatiguing them. Prom the benefices or parishes which, under
the operation of this Bill, would have no new incumbents ap-
pointed to them after the next vacancy in 2a'cli, after deducting
tnirty per cent., he found thers., would arise 82,3751. a-year to
be paid to the Commissioners. After deducting the expenses
wliich would fall on this fund, and which were made charge-
able on it by this Bill, including the interest of the money to
be raised to compensate the owners of the advowsons, there
would remain about 50,0001. a-year to be devoted to the pur-
poses of education.—( Hear, hear.) This amount did not in-
clude the sum that would be derived from the operation of the
clauses which allowed the income of rich benefices in certain
cases, to be reduced to 3001. a-year. He had never made any
allowance for what might be derived from this source, but he
bad no doubt that the amount would not be inconsiderable.
With regard to the present system of education, he wished to
say a few words. He wished that he had brought down with
him some letters he had received from persons in Ireland
contradicting, statements made in that House respecting
some of the schools under the new system. One of these
was from the master of the school, of which it was alleged
that the scholars attending it were compelled to attend mass
both evening and morning. This person denied that there
was a word of truth in the statement, or that any Protestant
child was ever called upon to attend the Catholic place of
worship. It had been said that the number of Protestant
clergymen who had applied to the new Board of Education
did not exceed 140. Now he believed, that if proper inquiry
was made, it would be found that the number of both Catholic
and Protestant clergymen who had made application to the
new Board of Education was pretty equal, allowing, of
course, for the different amount of the numbers of the mem-
bers of the two religions. The Her,. Gentleman had said
that the number of Protestants in a parish had nothing to do
with the question of the Establishment. He (Lord Morpeth)
did not know what taunts he might bring upon himself, if he
stated that he entertained an opposite opinion. He was quite
at a loss to conceive the utility of keeping up an expensive
establishment for the religious instruction of persons who did
not exist in many parishes. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man said that they ought to provide religious instruction for
even five members of the Establishment in a parish. Had
the Bill made provision for such purpose ? It had been said
that the salvation of five souls was of infinitely more import-
ance than the obtaining this surplus of 50,0001. a year. He
(Lord Morpeth) agreed that the value of a human soul was
far beyond any human estimate or any expense that could be
incurred; but he would recommend those who had urged this,
to consider the value of those souls of the millions in Ireland
who were now neglected, and had not the adequate means
of instruction.
Mr. O'CONNELL remarked that the disclosure of bad
principles sometimes led to good. The Right Hon. Member
for the University of Dublin had that night given them a
specimen of his liberality of feeling—he seemed actuated with
such zeal, as to amount almost to spiritual ferocity.—( Hear,
hear.) He seemed to be actuated by the feeling that he
was alone infallible, and that the law which he laid down
must be right. He (Mr. O'Connell) was glad that the Hon.
and Learned Member for Bandon had at last shown himself
up. Perhaps the House was not aware that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had been Secretary to the Kildare-street
Society for twenty-five years.--( Cheers.) He was the man
to whom the surperindence of the education of the people
had been intrusted.—( Hear, hear.) Could they be surprised
that the people of Ireland were dissatisfied with the system of
education afforded in the Kildare-street Society Schools, after
what had fallen that night from the Hon. Member.—( Hear,
hear.) He had told them—and had been cheered by those
behind him when he did so—that children had been educated
within the walls of a convent. The Hors. and Learned Gen-
tleman did not say whether or not there were any Protestant
children in the number._( Hear, hear.) Again he would ask,
what was the use of keeping up a church in a parish in which
there were no Protestants?--( Hear, Hear.) Were they to
maintain a church for abstract Protestants ?—( Laughter.) If
there was not a single Protestant in a parish, what was the
use of keeping up a church and paying a clergyman? Was
it that the atmosphere might be improved by the savour of
Protestantism ? He would ask the late secretary of the Kil-
dare-street Society at once, where was the Protestantism
where there were no Protestants ?—( Laughter.) But were
the souls of Catholics of less value than those of Protestants ?
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman would make the 9,000 Ca-
tholic inhabitants of some parishes pay largely for the support
of a Protestant clergyman, and the maintennance of a church
for the religious instruction of five Protestants. Were not the
Catholics equally entitled to the means of instruction as the
Protestants ? It almost appeared that the only thing
to be cared about was to examine how much they could
get extorted from the 9,000 Catholics. If they were
sincere Protestants, they would rejoice at this Bill as tak-
ing away the tarnish that had previously affected the
Protestant Church. Great alarm had been expressed at the
idea of a number of children being educated at a school-
room in a convent. What harm was there in the school-
room being within the walls of a convent? It was an absur-
dity to suppose that a school could be held there for the pur-
pose of proselytism. There were two classes of nuns in Ire-
land—one who devoted themselves to the education of the
poor--and the other who were employed in visiting the sick.
When the cholera raged with such violence in Ireland, these
excellent women devoted themselves to attending the sick in
the hospitals. In his neighbourhood eleven nuns constantly
attended the hospital for twenty-four hours, and at the expira-
tion of that time they were succeeded by eleven others.—
( Hear.) There was not one, however, from Kildare-street
to be met with in these scenes of misery. In the bloom of
life and vigour of health, these amiable women tended in the
most pestilential atmosphere those who had been attacked by
that frightful disease.—( Hear.) He had seen them at the
time, and they were most cheerful in consequence of the
satisfaction they experienced in doing good and alleviating the
sufferings of their fellow-creatures. In Killarney he knew a
convent in which three young Protestants had been placed
by their parents for the purpose of education. Their parents
had sent them there from choice, and had no fear of Prosely-
tism. He challenged any man to point out a single in-
stance in which the nuns engaged in education in Ireland
had ever interfered with the religion of the Protestant chil-
dren intrusted to their care. He would meet any ants •
gonist foot to foot on this point, and would defy him to point
out a single instance where such conduct had been proved.
He denied, also, that the Protestant children attending the
schools under the new system of education were ever inter-
fered with by the Roman Catholic Clergy. This had re-
peatedly been asserted, but he challenged any Hon. Member
to show him a single instance of the kind—if they did not do
so, what became of their declarations on the subject ?-_( Hear,
hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite had
spoken with a degree of bigotry which he was surprised
that a man of education could exhibit. It was the remains
of that bigotry which, thank God, the present Government
had put down.—( Hear, hear.) They never could have a
recurrence of that system which, the Hon. Gentleman was
so anxious to see carried into effect. The late Govern-
ment even had shrunk from adopting that system which
the Hon. Gentlemen. advocated. They had refused to abo-
lish the new system of education, and fell back on the
Kildare-street Society.—( Hear, hear.) All that h e reqired was a modification of the law. He had been toldu that
there could be no surplus. At the present moment there
was a Protestant clergyman in every parish in Ireland--
there was not a benefice or parish that was not filled
up. Now, a certain number of these, on vacancies oc-
curring, were not to be filled up ; and was he to be told
that 'no income would be derived from these parishes ?
Was there no difference whether or not the parishes were
filled up ?_( Hear, hear.) In the province of Munster, there
were 2,200,000 Catholics and 183,000 Protestants. The
church was to be better apportioned to the wants of the latter
than it at present was. It was, therefore, a monstrous ab-
surdity to tell him that there would be no surplus in that pro-
vince. The truth was, that the animus which was now mani-
fested on the subject originated in that paltry feeling of su-
perioty which had been engendered in one party in Ireland,
through the instrumentality of England, whose policy it was
to create division. He trusted that the time was not distant
when the Kildare-street Society and its orators, and the Re-
corder and his judicial qualifications, Would be estimated at
their full value, and would sink into the insignificance they
deserved.— ( Hear.)
Mr. SHA W said that the ;ion. and Learned Gentleman
had asserted that he (11.7. Shaw) and those who acted with
him were actuated;ntheir conduct by some feeling of supe-
riority over th Catholics of Ireland : he denied that this was
the case. He did not claim any superiority; but he must pro-
test 'against the language used by the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber with respect to the Established Church. What, however,
was the situation in which the Hon. and Learned Member had
placed himself? The Hon. and Learned Member had so-
lemnly declared, on his oath, that he would not attempt to
subvert or injure the Protestant Church of Ireland, and not-
withstanding this, he was now attempting to subvert that
Church.--(" Hear," and " Order.")
Mr. O'CONNELL exclaimed " It is false !" which was
followed by loud cries of " Order, order."
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to order. He submitted that the
Right Hon. Member was out of order in accusing him (Mr.
O'Connell) of swearing to one thing, and doing directly the
contrary.__( Great confusion, and cries of " Order.")
Mr. FINN said that a grossly calumnious attack had been
made on his Hon. and Learned Friend, by the Right Hon.
Member.

Mr. SHAW observed that he did not intend to charge the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman with perjury ; but he contended
that he was perfectly justified in the argument he had used.
Mr. FINN hastily rose, and exclaimed it was a false and
atrocious calumny.
Several other HoN. MEMBERS rose at the same moment and
made use of some hasty expressions ' • but such was the con-
' fusion of the House, and the loud cries of " Order," and
Chair," that it was utterly impossible to gather them.
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bernal) at length obtained partial
order, and stated that if order was not restored lie would im-
mediately leave the chair and bfeak up the Committee, and
report the reason to the House. It was utterly impossible to
proceed with the public business, if seven or eight Hon. Mem-
bers rose at the same moment to address the Committee. He
then called on Mr. Shaw. •
Mr. SHAW said that he would not pursue the subjer' ther. They had beard the Hon. and Learned Gi'...
scribe the clergy as cormorants, and yet he

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