The Sun.
London, England, 1832-06-14 00:00:00

that injustice had been eto Ireland, when her free
tiolders were deprived of Cl ranchise.
-,M4Lo_use divided—
For fr. O'Connell's mot

7:1

Against it
12:2
Majority

Mr. O'CONNELL then rose for the purpose of movise.
mother amendment, which he said was of a similar cha-
racter, and had for object the restoration of those free-
holders to their franchise whose freeholds were of the an
nual value of 1/. and upwards, the profit upon which was
one-third of the rent, and the fine upon the fall of any of
the lives net more than 21. He stated that he brought
fur yard his propositions in the present stage, in order that
he might register on the Journals, that the rights of Irish-
men had been claimed and refused. He complained that
the Noble Lord (J. Russell), instead of giving Ireland
any real and substantial benefit, had dealt only in soft
smooth words, which would by no means satisfy
7,500,000 people. While the Noble Lord gave a libe-
ral franchise to England, he gave only honeyed sen•
tenets to Ireland—he was a reformer in England, and
continuator of abuses in Ireland. He (Mr. O'Connell)
wished it to be known in Ireland, that English Catholics
whom the 40s. freeholders of Ireland had emancipated (and
some of whom ought to be unemancipated), when a
question like that just decided was put to the vote, had
walked out of the House area-i n-arm with the Orange
Member for Sligo. The English Conservatives and Irish
Orangemen were, on this occasion, supported also by the
Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who, in
1829, reprobated the disfranchisement of the 40s. free-
holders, and voted against that measure. If he (Mr.
O'Connell) could remember the language in which the
Noble Lord formerly defended those freeholders, he would
be able to make for them a better defence than he could
make by any effort of his own composition. As a reason
for refusing to restore the franchise to these freeholders, it
had been asserted by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite,
that they had invaded the commons, and that they held
their tenures by right of conquest. But he would tell
these Right Hon. Gentlemen, that men of more foresight
than was possessed by the framers of that Reform Bill,
had three times purposely driven the Irish people to inef-
fectual rebellion, by measures which, considering the spi-
rit of the age, were not more irritating than the measures
of the Right Hon, Gentlemen.—(Hear, hear.) By such
means the soil of Ireland bad been three times conquered,
and he believed the family of the Right Hon. Gentleman
had been made nothing the poorer by the process.--( Hear. )
It seemed, therefore, to be no very weighty argument
against the rights of the 40s. freeholders, that they had
squatted upon the Commons.—(lfear, and laughter.)
However, the amendment which he had now to propose
was nut liable to such an objection, as the persons to
whom it would give the franchise were not squatters—(A
laugh)—or invaders, but they held their lands by compact
with the proprietors. Neither could it be argued that to
enfranchise them would be to extend the constituency too
widely ; and yet, if that were the case, he should not ad-
mit that the argument, in this case, would be of any
weight, because he thought it was a wise policy to encou-
rage the people aa much as possible to acquire property of
the kind to which his amendment referred. He concluded
by moving, " That it be an instruction to the Committee
to insert a clause restoring the franchise to persons holding
freeholds of the yearly value of forty shillings, provided
that such freeholds he not liable to a greater fine than 405.,
or to an annual rent exceeding V. sterling."
Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to the allusion made to
him by the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry, would
only say that, in the course which he had taken on the
occasion of the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders,
he had been influenced by the conduct of the majority of
the Irish Members who were at that time in Parliament,
and amongst whom were gentlemen as well acquainted
with, and as much attached to, the interests of Ireland as
the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen could possibly be. In
that case, and in his conduct respecting the emancipation
of the Catholics, he had acted in the way in which he
thought he could beat promote the interest of Ireland, and
so he had always acted, and always would act, upon every
question relating to that country, whatever might he the
opinions of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry.
Mr. HO WARD had voted with his Hon. Friend, the
Member for Kerry, upon his previous motion, because he
thought that it was most desirable to assimilate, as mvch
as possible, the laws and institutions of Ireland to those of
Great Britain ; and the motion of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman seemed to him to be calculated to remove every
shadow of a pretence for the measure which that gentle-
man himself (Mr. O'Connell) had for stone time past
been calling for, and which to him (Mr. Howard) seemed
to be most detrimental to the interests of the two countries.
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman seconded the
amendment.
Lord ALTHORP said that the motives which had in-
duced him to oppose the previous motion of the lion. and
Learned Member for Kerry, must compel him to vote also
against the present motion ; and he (lid not think that
anything which had fallen front the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman made it necessary for him (Lord Althorp) to
to occupy the time of the House further.
Lord MILTON did not think that the reasons which
his Majesty's Ministers had given for their opposition to
Mr. O'Connell's previous motion, were such as could be
satisfactory to their own minds—(Hear, bear)—and he
was sure that they would not be satisfactory to the people
of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) If he thought that the suc-
cess of the present amendment would lead to the success of
the other in the Committee, he would certainly support
it ; because he thought it would give the greatest satis-
faction to the people, both of England and Ireland ; and
he therefore hoped that Ministers would be yet induced
to reconsider that motion. But as he did not think
that the adoption of the present amendment would lead
to the adoption of the previous one, lie would oppose it ;
because, if successful, and carried into operation by itself,
it would lead to the manufacture of vote,, which would
throw the representation into the bands of the great
landowners.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RUTH ITN regetted the determination to which
the House came upon the former motion of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Kerry. To have acceded to it,
would insure to them the gratitude of the people of Ire-
land, which they would have acquired at no cost to them-
selves. But it was impossible that the Reform Bill, with-
out such an amendment, could be a final measure.—(Hear,
bear.) The Bill would give so little satisfaction, that the
Ministers and the House could expect no gratitude for it
from the people of Ireland.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said, that if the question
now under discussion were, whether or not the forty-
shilling freeholders should be disfranchised, he would op-
pose the disfranchisement. But the question now was one
of creation ; and, as there had Leen no new creation of
forty-shilling voters in England, he did not think that Ire-
land could set up any claim to have such a class of electors
created. They had not existed in that country for the last
three years. When they did exist, he was one of the few
who opposed their disfranchisement, at a time when the
llon. and Learned Member for Kerry and Sir Francis
Burdett supported that measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL begged leave to set the Noble Lord
right as to a question of tact.—(Hear.) At the time to
which the Noble Lord referred, he (Mr. O'Connell) had
strenuously opposed the disfranchisement of the forty-
shilling freeholder. There was a meeting of the members
friendly to Catholic Emancipation, at the house of Sir F.
Burdett, for the purpose of considering the expediency of
supporting the Disfranchisement Bill, and to that meeting
two gentlemen were sent by the Deputation from the Ca-
tholic Association, to protest against the acceptance of
Emancipation, upon the condition that the forty-shilling
freeholders should be disfranchised.
Lord G. BENTINCK might have been mistaken as to
the side which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman took in
1t3529 ; but he could not be mistaken as to the opinions
which that Gentleman expressed in his evidence before the
Committee in 1825, in which he strongly recommended
the disfranchisement of the forty-shiding freeholder.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the Noble Lord had to-
lerably well proved his consistency, by voting at one time
one way and at another time in an opposite way upon the
same question.—(A laugh.) If the Noble Lord had heard
him (Mr. O'Connell) when he, that evening, explained
his views upon the present question, he would know that
lie (Mr. O'Connell) had not been inconsistent. The
franchise of which he spoke, in his evidence before the
Committee in 1825, was terminable, the tenure being for
a single life and at a rack-rent.—(Hear, hear.) But he
was then opposed, as he now was, to the disfranchisement
of fieeholders in fee.—( Hear, hear).
Mr. GRATTAN said, that if the Noble Lord had read
the papers laid upon the table, in connexion with the Irish
Reform Bill, he would have found that the amendment of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry would not create
a new class of voters, as there were no less than four
thousand of the present constituency forty-shilling free-
holders in the towns. But when lie saw the Noble Lord
opposing the English Reform Bill, he could not expect
that he could support a measure of equal justice for
freland.—( Hear).
Mr. STANLEY said, that the Noble Lord's argument
was applied only to the freeholders in the counties, as they
shine were disfranchised in 1829, The effect of the lion.
'474 Learned . Gentleman's (Mr. O'Connell) motion, if
tairied into effect, would be to a subdivision of holding,
which now gave en independent constituency, into a num,

her of freeholds which would give a most dependent elate
of voters.
Mr. O'CONNELL contended that a subdivision quits
as great already existed in England.
Lord PALMERSTON defended himself front tle
charge of inconsistency, on the ground that, in 1829, hi
opposed the disfranchisement of an existing body of elec-
tors ; whereas, what he now opposed was the creation of
a new constituency.
The Amendment was then put and negatived without
a division.
After which, the Order of the Day was read, and on
the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Sir ROBERT HERON rose to move that it be an
instruction to the Committee to make provision in the
Bill, that the University of Dublin do continue to return
one Member only to serve in Parliament. Though that
University had frequently sent to the House of Commons
men distinguished for learning and talents, yet it did not
appear to him that there were any grounds of justice or
expediency upon which that addition to the representation
of the University could defended. There was in Dublin
University but a single college, which had at present only
seventy voters—a number which the Bill would augment
to the extent of not more than two hundred ; while the
University of Cambridge had 2,200 electors, and that of
Oxford 2,500. He would he glad to learn what superior
claims the University of Dublin, hid which gave it a right
to a tenfold representation. There were four Univer-
sities in Scotland, and the Scotch Reform Bill did
not give to one of these a single representative;
and where lay the superiority of Trinity College,
Dublin ? How small the attention paid to the
real and just claims of wealth, population, and intelligence
in the formation of the present measure, the House might
judge of from the fact that the county of Cork, with
800,000 souls, and comprising almost a seventh part of
the island, had but two Members. Then there was the
city of Kilkenny, with a population of 20,000, and with
its suburb of St. Canice, containing 30,000 had only
one Member. If the promoters of the Bill were desirous
of giving five additional Members to Ireland, why not
dispose of them in some other way—for example, in giving
a third Member to the City of Dublin ? And if in giving
an additional Member to the University, they aimed at
supporting the Protestant interest in Ireland, they surely
might as effectually accomplish that object by increasing
the representatives for Londonderry, or some other place
in the north of Ireland. The Hon. Baronet then con-
cluded by making the motion as stated above, adding, that
if lie succeeded in that motion, he then would move that
Kilkenny be the place to receive the additional Member,
instead of the University.
Mr. FERGUSON seconded the motion.
Mr. CRAMPTON, observing that the question being
between the University of Dublin and the city of Kil-
kenny, should say nothing of the superior claims put forth
for the English and Scotch Universities. It had been
conceded that five additional Members should be give❑ to
Ireland ; and the question before the House was, as to the
allocation of those Members. In the first place, he would
call the attention of the House to this fact, that though
there was but one College in Dublin, in contained from
1,500 to 2,000 students upon its books, and it was alto-
gether erroneous to say that there would be under the
new Bill only 200 electors, for, in a very short time they
would amount to 600, all of whom would he found on the
Bench, the Bar, the Medical Profession, and amongst the
heads of the Church. Even at the time when the elec-
tors of the University were at the lowest numerical
amourr, they still manifested their independence, return-
ing Mr. Plunkett again and again, against the whole in-
fluence of Government. He admitted the claims of Kil-
kenny to an additional representative, but not at the ex-
pense of the University—s University founded and en-
dowed for the maintenance of the Protestant religion ;
and for that purpose chitfly was imparted to it the privi-
lege of sending Members to Parliament.
Mr. SHELL said it was strange the Solicitor General
for Irela❑d did not attempt to answer the argument drawn
from the Scotch Universities. To Scotland eight addi-
tional Members are to be given; to Ireland eight. Of
the eight additional Members for Scotland, not one is
awarded to her four unrepresented Universities ; while it
is proposed to allocate one fifth of the new representation
of Ireland to her University, which is already representel
There are 2000 students on the books of the University
of Edinburgh ; there are but 1500 on those of Dublin
College. The first is without a Member ; is the second
to have two ? Do the interests of literature, or of the
country (for the question divides itself into these con-
aiderations) require that Dublin College should transmit
to that House a second edition, or rather duplicate, of the
Learned Gentl&nan, by whom the feelings of his consti-
tuents are represented by so indisputable a fidelity—who
compensates by his zeal for the singleness of his delegation,
and of whom, in reference to the multiplicity of his ac-
complishments, it may be justly said that he is himself a
host ?—(A laugh.) The constituency of Dublin Col-
lege is reducible to three classes—the fellows, the scholars,
and the ex-scholars. Let us examine what benefit
to science can be obtained by enabling any one of them
to return two Members to Parliament. The Fellows
are twenty-five; there are seven senior and eighteen
junior; the former have no pupils—their single duty
is to receive about three thousand pounds a year from
the funds of the College; but it is to he presumed
(although the University Press does not corroborate the
suggestion,) than in return they are engaged in accumulat-
ing large masses of erudition, in enriching themselves with
literary treasure, in opening new veins cf intellectual
wealth, in their moral, mental, and physical investigation.
Their fortunate repose, so auspicious to the noble and
disinterested pursuits, ought not to be distracted by a mul-
tifarious canvass, and it is not desirable that they should
be molested by two Members of Parliament whispering
Bishoprics in their ears. The minor fellows earn their
livelihood by the:r pupils, and some of them earn their
pupils by their politics. They do not excel in the profes-
sor's chair more than in the rostrum of conservative agi-
tation ; they have thus obtained a spurious ascendency—
their influence is as great as it is illegitimate—they com-
mand the return at elections—they are as renowned for
their creation of a Member of Parliament, as for the
formation of a Bachelor of Art,. One is, however, at a
loss to see how the cause of literature, and those pursuits
to which a University ought to be extensively devoted,
will be promoted, by widening the field of their ambition,
by opening a larger career for their political influence, and
enabling them to inflict a brace of delegates on this House.
—(Hear, hear.) We come to the scholars ; among the
scholars there are, no doubt, several high-minded and in-
dependent gentlemen ; but many are in such narrow cir-
cumstaness as to be led into temptation. But it may be
said that the imperfection of this constituency will be re-
medied by allowing the ex-scholars to vote. We have
seen the school of polities! morality in which they
have been nurtured. But who, and where are they ?
They are scattered over the world. How ma❑y of
them will be assembled for an electien ? And who
will pretend that any literary advantage will accrue from
the septennial, or, if you will, the triennial gathering of
hese literary estrays in Trinity College ?—(Hear, hear.

But look at the political question, to give, as a part 0,
Reform, an additional Member to a constituency of 150
persons (for there will be no more), is repugnant to the
principles on which Reform itself is founded. Dublin
College has now 95 voters; the addition of ex-scholars,
snaking allowance for deaths and necessary absence, can-
not amount to 50, for the Irish Solicitor-General is in this
particular quite incorrect.—(Hear.) You have determined
that in England every borough, even the boroughs in sche-
dule B, shall comprise 300 voters ; and you are prepared
to give two Members to the worst of all constituencies,
containing a number less than that of the meanest Parlia-
mentary hamlet in the empire. This objection is fatal,
but there is one still stronger ; Roman Chatholies are ex-
cluded from fellowships and scholarships. Is it not an
oflence to the feelings, and a wrong to the rights of the
Irish people, thzt you should, out of five Mein-
b,ls, give one to an exclusive and sacerdotal corporation?
—(Hear, hear.) Must one of the five—the miserable five,
which you affect to give to Ireland—be thus prodigally and
almost profligately cast away' ? If you were to award us
our due proportion, then the waste of one would be more
excusable—but where your donation is so small (so small
in comparison with our rights and with your own dignity
and honour)—where you have so little to give, give that
little well—give it to the people, and do not sully
tbe entire endowment by throwing any part of it
away upon tl.e community of acrimonious religionists,
with whom the people cannot sympathise, and
who cannot sympathise with the people— how are
characterised by monistic narrowness 'and the pride of
priestcraft, and in whom all the virulence of faction, the
virulence of domination, and the sacred rancours of po-
lemics are combined. Whigs ! -why do you this ? What
motive, what reason, what pretence can there be for
this ? Is it because Ireland has deserved so ill, and
Dublin College has deserved sa well at your hands, that
you are determined on offering a palpable affront to the
one by conferring this baneful favour - on tile other ?
(Hear, hear.) One word more and I have done. The
Secretary for Ireland has not unfre.quently vaunted of the
division of the Irish 'Members, and in support of •his mea.:
sorts (on tithes, for instance), he bas appealed to the
Majority of Irishmen on his side. This test is' not an un-
fair one ; but let it not be monopolized, nor reserved for
the -Hon. Gentleman's exclusive use. Ho--.v do the Irish
Njembe,, feel—how will they act on this motion ?
Is
there a mail amongst them, who has ever voted for Be-

form, who will not strenuously remonstrate against till.
most unfortunate alteration ? If lam wrong, pursue your
course—adhere to your Cabinet decision ; but if I an.
right (and am I not right?)—if to a man the Irish Mem •
hers, who habitually support the Government, exclaim
against this proceeding in the language of surprise, pain.
resentment—then let me implore you, in a question ex-
elusively ours, in which our feelings, our rights, our in-
terest are alone involved, to make Ireland some return for
incalculable services and countless obligations, by yielding
where there is every motive to yield to her entreaties, and
to abandon the miserable policy of sacrificing your best
friends to your worst antagonists, and to ba true to us, in
order that you may not be traitors to yourselves.—(Cheers.)
• Mr. LEFROY denied that the University was bigoted
in any degree. On the contrary, it always acted with
equal impartiality towards both Roman Catholics and Pro-
, testants. The number of voters would also be considerably
increased by this Bill, especially if the motion of the Hon.
Member for Mallow was successful, the effect of which
would be to give votes to the Masters of Arts.
Mr. O'CONNELL could not allow the University the
liberality the Hon. and Learned Member boasted it Pos-
sessed. The University gave degrees, indeed, to Catholics,
but it was because their degrees were worth nothing. He
' hoped the Ministers would preserve the Members for the
University, in order to preserve their own consistency.
The Government would not be consistent, unless it gave
to that exclusive and Protestant community another
Member. The Government was bound to support the
proposition for giving the University another Member. If
it had been proposed to give the Member to Maynooth
he would have opposed the motion, because that was an
exclusive body. In the annals of profligacy and corrup-
tion, greater profligacy and corruption could not be found
than took place at the contested elections for the Univer-
sity, as was proved before the Irish House of Commons.
The Government would not give the vote to Masters of
Arts, and if it were to propose that he should oppose it.
The Masters would have to be brought from all parts of
the kingdom, and the constituency would be the most
numerous of any in the kingdom. It was a mockery of
Reform to give four Members to eight millions of people,
and give one to an exclusive and narrow body, and that
body, to make the matter worse, a small Protestant body
in the midst of the eight millions of Catholics to whom
justice was denied.
Mr. STANLEY assured the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman that the Government would persevere, and would
act with consistency. He hoped that there would alway 4
be found reasonable men enough in the House to prevent
the Hon. and Learned Member from hurrying the House
into his extremes. He admitted that the Member was
given to the University by the Government, because it
was a Protestant establishment. He did not wish litera-
ture, and particularly Protestant literature, to be without
its weight in the Parliament. He wished that there were
no distinction between Protestants and Catholics; but that
existing, he thought the Government had not done too
much in throwing in another• Member for the University.
The propriety of extending the franchise had been much
discussed, and on that point there was a great variety of
opinions. The object of the Government was to extend
it as far as the charter would possibly allow. By admit-
ting Masters of Arts, the franchise would be open to Ca-
tholics. The Government was not pledged to extend the
franchise to all the Masters of Arts, and he hoped to hear
the opinion of the House on it, when the motion of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Mallow was submitted to the
House. The extension of the constituency, as proposed
by the Government, was sufficient to have a good consti-
tuency, and he should certainly support the motion for
giving an additional Member to the University.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN objected to giving an ad-
ditional Member to the University, as tending to keep
up that exclusive spirit which had already been so
productive of evil—(Loud calls of " Question.") He
affirmed that the whole of this arrangement was the result
of a plot, and that the Duke of Cumberland was at the
bottom of the plot.—(A laugh.) He would say that
fearlessly, and whatever Hon. Gentlemen might think of
it. The Duke of Cumberland was Chancellor of the
University, and that gave him great influence.

Lord ALTHORP maintained that the present Bill
gave the preponderance to the Catholics in the towns and
counties ; and, therefore, in giving an additional Mernbt-r
to the Universities, they ought not to be taunted with
studying the Protestant interest exclusively. He denied
that it would have the effect of keeping up any exclusive
feelings. He hoped the original clause would meet with
the support of the House, as it was essential that no pro-
bability of success should be held out to any alteration
which would be considered as infringing on the esta-
blished institutions of the country.
Mr. W. PEEL was glad to find that Ministers intended
to persevere. He was anxious to support the Protestant
institution. of Ireland, which he feared would be severely
affected by the Bill.—(Hear.)
Mr. WYSE was sorry that a distinction should be
drawn by the Right Hon. Secretary between Catholic and
Protestant.—(Question.)
Mr. CROKER said the distinction referred to by the
Hon. Member was forced on the Right Hon. Secretary.
No man could have balanc,d the parties more evenly.—
, (Question.)
Sir R. HERON replied.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw; when there
appeared—
For the Amendment 97
Against it 147
Majority against the Amendment -50
After some conver.ation, between Mr. Stanley, Mr
O'Connell, and Lord Althorp, the Bill was committed
pro forma, and the further consideration adjourned till
Monday.

The Orders of the Day were then disposed of and the
House adjourned at half-past Two o'Clock.

ST. ALBAN'S ABBEY.

(Concluded from The Sun of yesterday.)
The Archdeacon WATSON said the parish of St.
Alban's, besides a few houses, had only a very small
portion of land; they had come forward as far
as they were able, and had done all that they
could do. He could not conscientiously require
them to do more. It %vas however a large county,
and there were many wealthy persons in it; he
trusted they would come forward and subscribe li-
berally. In addition to his mite, the meeting should
have his most cordial support ; and it was with
pleasure he seconded the resolution.
The resolutions were carried.

A Gentleman, whose name we could not learn,
suggested that there should be some time fixed
when the subscriptions should be closed.
Mr. COTTON thought such a step might operate
against the subscription. It would be better to fix
some time to have a meeting, when it might be de-
termined upon.

It was ultimately agreed that a meeting should
be called the first week in February, to report
progress.

FRANCIS SEARANCIIE, Esq., the Mayor, said the
Abbey was in such a state as to require immediate
attention, that a small sum laid out now would be
the means of preventing further dilapidation, and
wished to know whether the expense of boarding
up the aperture should be taken out of the sums
subscribed.

The Churchwarden said that 601. or 701 would
be sufficient. The parish was in the receipt of
about 1001. per annum from a charity, and it
would increase. He had no doubt but if the build-
ing was once restored they would be able to keep it

in repair.
The Earl of VERULAM said there would be a great
many subscriptions that could not be returned, even
if it did not succeed, and he thought these might be
appropriated.
Mr. COTTLNGIIAM said, he was sorry to make any
objection, particularly at a meeting where his Lord-
ship presided ; but he thought the parish should up"-
hold, at least for the present. The sum subscribed
by the public for the preservation of British archi-
tecture should be applied for that particular purpose,
and that alone. He was fearful, that if any sum
was take❑ in the first instance, it would damp the
energies of its supporters. He sincerely hoped the
case would be taken up by the Government of the
country ; it was a national subjtct•--il was truly
English ; there was no borrowed plumes on it. No
one had a greater vulue for it than himself. lie
had visited it for the bundled and first time. lie
had never entered within its sacred walls, -but he
came out with additional pleasure, and would be
proud to cooperate with the present surveyor, Mr.
Donaldson, to take the best means for its preserva-
tion, with Out breaking into the funds proposed to be
subscribed by the public.

The Dean of CARLISLE said reference had been
made to the Government. The timber for the re-
pAration of •York Minster had been given out of
the , Dock;yard, and he had no doubt that the same
.vould be "done in this instance.

The MAYOR then said, at all events he would