The Sun.
London, England, 1835-06-24 00:00:00

IMPE.IIIAL PARLIAMENT.

bottle consumption, stud that measures should be taken
to prevent the introduction of Foreign coffee.---( Hear, bear.)
in order to carry that into effect; it would be riCeestary, that all
coffee Introilitteq iiitO this eotintiygliotild be itEConipLtied with
evidence of its growth at.the place from whence it pur-
ported to come.—(Hear.) As to the time at which the
alteration was to take effect, that must depend upon the
time required to produce the necessary evidence ; for unless
coffee wits accompanied with that certificate, it could not be
allowed to be received. As to the other question, the proper
time to discuss that would be when he brought in the Bill for
the equalization of duties ; but the Hon. Member might rest
assured that it was his earnest desire, in proposing an equa
lization of duties, to state it in a manner to prevent any abuse
of privileges.
Capt. BERKELEY gave notice, that on the 19th clause of
the Municipal Reform Bill coming under the consideration of
the House; lie should move that no person in holy orders,
licensed dissenting minister, or persons holding office under
the Crown, should be members of the town council.
IRISH TITHES.

IlOUSP: OP foRDS,JuNk_23.

Lord DENMAN that his seat on the Woolsaet at 5 o'cloely.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said he was instrliblT'..di In the
hbsence of a Noble Duke (WellinAtciii), to give notice
that to-morrow the Noble MI6 Would move a resolution, ac-
knowleking tht cat services of William Courtney, Esq.,
now tilt Earl of Devon, while he was Clerk-Assistant of that
House, unless the motion was made by the Noble Viscount
at the head of the Government..
Several private Bills were brought up from the Commons.
Lord BROUGHAM said, in consequence of the absence of
many Noble Lords, he begged to postpone his motion for re-
suming the adjourned discussion upon the resolutions respect..
ing Education, till to-morrow.
The Earl of MELVILLE presented several petitions,
praying for a further endowment of the Scottish Church.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Relief
Congregation of Falkirk, against any further grant. The pe-
titioners stated there were now plenty of unlet sittings in the
Establishment.

Lord DUNCANNON bad made enquiries respecting the
appointment of one of the Education Commissioners in Ire-
land, but had not been able .to ascertain anything upon the
matter. He would have some correspondence upon the sub-
ject in Ireland, and would give an answer on Monday next.
The Annual Indemnity Bill was read a second time, the
other Bills on the table were forwarded a stage, and the
House adjourned till to-morrow.

Mr. SHAW wished to know of the Noble Lord opposite
(Morpeth), whether it was his intention to bring in the Bill of
which he had given notice, relative to the Irish tithes, without
first going into a Committee?
Lord MORPETH said it was his intention to bring in
the Bill without adopting that mode of proceeding.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Java 23.
The SPEAKER took the chair at a quarter before 4 o'clock,
but as there was a ballot for a committee to try the merits of
the second petition of the return of Mr. O'Dwyer for Drog-
heda, the Gallery was not opened till twenty minutes after four.
While strangers were excluded, Colonel P. Thomson, the
newly elected Member for Hull, was introduced by Mr.
Pryme and Dr. Bowring. lie took the oaths and his seat
amidst loud cheers.

On the motion of Sir W. FOLKES, the Wells (Norfolk)
Harbour Bill was read a third time.
CATHOLIC VOTERS' OATHS.
__ -

Mr. S. CR A WFO RD had been charged to present a pe-
tition, signed by 281 of the electors of the town of Belfast,
upon the subject of the present state of the law regarding the
oath taken by Catholic voters at the election of members of
that House, and praying that the House would pronounce
the oath no longer an essential preliminary to the exer-
cise of the elective franchise. As he had a notice on the
Minutes of that House to call their attention to the subject,
and as he would have, therefore, an opportunity of so doing,
ho would content himself by simply presenting the petition.
ABOLITION OF TITHES.
Mr. ZIAHER rose to present several petitions from parishes
in the county of Wexford, praying for the total abolition of
tithes. One of them (that Trom- the Barony of Firth,)
was signed by 1,960 of the inhabitants. He had further to
call the consideration of the House to another petition, which
was of a more immediate nature, and demanded a more imme-
diate attention, if not interference. The petitioners whose
petitions be had just laid on the table, might wait, and would
do so, in the full confidence that a measure would be brought
forward of such a nature as would afford full relief; but the pe-
tition which he hold in his hand was more immediately
pressing. The petitioners could not wait, and they
therefore prayed the immediate interference of the House.
They prayed the interposition of the House in the case of cer-
tain law-suits, instituted in the Court of Exchequer in Ireland,
on the part of Dr. Ebrington, by the Diocesan Committee
of Ferns. He thought that, after what had been stated a few
evenings since by the Hon. Member for Brighton ( Captain
Pechell), in alluding to the case of the Rev. Mr. Cook Kemp,
the House would easily commiserate the defendants in such
proceedings, reduced, as they were, by the pressure of the
times, and the heavy amount of tithes. The petitioners, it
appeared, had waited upon Dr. Ebrington upon the subject of
these proceedings, and he informed them that he had handed
over all his power and jurisdiction to the Diocesan Committee.
In this stage of the proceedings he could not even allow his
humanity to interfere. The costs of these suits amounted to
at least 301. to each of these miserable farmers ; but without
troubling the House further, he would refer it to the contents
of the petition, which was the best advocate of their cause.
_ _

---
Captain PECHELL supported the petition, and said he
would have a similar one to present from Sussex.

DROGHEDA COMMITTEE.

The members of the Drogheda Election Committee were
sworn in. The names were those of Sir Charles Knightley,
Sir R. H, Inglis, the Right Hon. H. Goulburn, Mr. Bolling,
Mr. Yorke, Mr. T. Wood, Mr. Joseph Neeld, Viscount Grim-
stone, Mr. Westenra, Mr. Wm. Gordon, and Mr. Twiss.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. WAKLE Y rose to propose a motion of which he had
given notice—" That the ballot for entering the names of
Members having public petitions to present, do take place 20
minutes before the time appointed for Mr. Speaker taking the
chair." The Hon. Member hoped that, as the object of this mo-
tion was to secure the dispatch of the business of the House,
it would be decided immediately, because the present system
was pregnant with very serious inconvenience to every Member
of the House. At present Members had to come down
to the House at 12 o'clock, and many of them had miles to
return again ; but if the Ballot was taken 20 minutes before
the House meeting, this necessity would be done away with.
If, therefore, there was no opposition to his motion, he should
wish to have it decided at once.

Mr. BUCKINGHAM said that he had given notice of an
amendment upon this motion, which ho acknowledged was an
improvement upon the present system, and yet likely to be
productive of great inconvenience, because the nearer they ap-
proached to the time of the House meeting, the greater
difficulty there would be in arranging the business.
Sir G. CLERK thought that the proposed plan would be
unjust to many Hon. Members having petitions to present.
Mr. WILKS was sure that if those Hon. Members had
heard the complaints of inconvenience from all parts of the
House, they would at once be persuaded to adopt the motion of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury.
The SPEAKER suggested that the continuation of this
discussion, at the present moment, would have the effect of
preventing many Hon. Members from presenting petitions that
evening.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM said, that as it would have that
effect, he would withdraw his amendment.
Mr. WAK LEY said, that after the intimation from the
Chair, he felt bound to withdraw his motion for the present;
but he begged the House to understand, however late it might
be, he would bring it on to-night.
The subject then dropped.
COLONIAL TIMBER.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG presented a petition from Tynemouth,
praying for an alteration in the duties on British Colonial
Timber. The Hon. Member stated, that in his opinion any
alteration in the Timber Duties, such as that contemplated
by those who had introduced the Select Committee on the
Timber Duties, would be productive of great injury. The
petition was referred to the Select Committee on the Tim-
ber Duties. The Hon. Member presented a petition from the
same place, praying the House to adopt measures to check the
progress of intemperance. The Hon. Member conceived that
upon this subject great misapprehension prevailed. He
thought, though Acts of Parliament could not prevent men
from committing acts of intemperance, yet that their evil pro-
pensities ought to be placed under proper legislative control.
The Hon. MEMBER also presented another petition from
Tynemouth, levied on their shipping, and praying for relief.
Referred to a Committee on the Leith Harbour Bill.
Mr. WOOD presented a petition from Halifax against the
Marriage Bill and the Imprisonment fur Debt Bill.
Lord W A LPO L E presented a petition from Norfolk, com-
plaining of agricultural distress.

LAMBETH ELECTION.
Mr. HAWES presented a petition, of which he had given
notice, from an individual named John Thomas Loader, com-
plaining of undue interference at the last election for
Lambeth. The petitioner complained that he had been fre-
quently solicited by Mr. Newman, of the Bridge-house, to
rote for Alderman Farebrother, one of the candidates at the
last election, and that on the 9th of January a coach and
four persons were sent by Mr. Newman for him. That having a
wife and family, at their earnest request he bad gone on the fol-
lowing day and polled for Ald. Farebrother. That he had been
subsequently dismissed by Mr. Newman, and had not since
been able to obtain any situation or employment. The Hon.
Member bore testimony to the respectability of the petitioner,
and moved that the petition be referred to the Committee on
bribery at elections.
Alderman WOOD said the petitioner had applied to the
Corporation, who, after fully investigating his case, had
found that there was not one word of truth in it.—( Hear,
hear.) He (Alderman Wood) was not there to support
the cause of Alderman Farebrother—he would be one of the
last men for whom he would come farward, but the truth should
be told. The petitioner had received notice to leave Mr.
Newman's service—he was the servant of Mr. Newman, and
not of the Corporation, and the dismissal had actually taken
place previous to the Lambeth Election.
CORPORATE REFORM.
Mr. GISBORNE had a pet tion to present from the city
of Leicesster, agreed to at a publin meeting, called by
public advertisement; and although it contained only
four signatures, those four signatures represented those
of upwards of 9,000 of the inhabitants. They prayed the
House to pass a measure for the Reform of Municipal Corpo-
rations. As this most respectable Corporation was, as he
hoped, about to be defunct—( A laugh)—he would not then
make any observations upon this petition.
Petitions to the same effect were presented by Mr. BONHAM
CAkTER from Portsmouth, and by Mr. FOSTER from Walsall.
IRISH CHURCH.
Lord MORPETII rose to explain, agreeably to an intima-
tion given last night, the course he should pursue in reference
to the Irish Church question. It was his intention to move
for leave to bring in a Bill, but first he should propose that the
order of the 23d day of March should be read in order to
have it discharged. he should next move that the resolution
of the 7th of April should be read, which related to the ap-
plication of the surplus revenues of the Church, and thereon
Ile should move for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regu-
lation of the ecclesiastical revenues, and for the promotion of
religious and moral instruction in Ireland.

DUTY ON COFFEE.
Mr. P. STEWART had to ask some very important ques-
tions of the Right Ilon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer re-
specting the equalization of duties on coffee : first, when it
was proposed that the reduced scale of duty should take
place; second, how it would affect the stock of coffee of the
present year; and lastly, and this was the most important, in
what manner he proposed to guard the British Colonists in
the East and West Indies, from the introduction of Foreign
coffee ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that it was his intention that the scale should not extend to

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAi, .1":11/4T-PA IS35'

the effect of restricting the numbers, and in the others it would
cause those *ho elected the tbivn eotineil to contribute to the rate,
But he believed that the diScussicid upon that point need not
occupy Mord than the few observations he had to intake; because
since the disenssion of last night he hid sittedtiiksly ceniidered
the Bill, and it seemed to him ( Sir Peel) to be drawn
up in precise conformity to the excellent principle for which
he had contended. It would not, therefore, be necessary for
him to move the amendment of which he had given notice.
It appeared to him, that he ought ,to rest satisfied
with the Bill as it stood, and for this reason, that the Town
Council of every Borough in which the funds were deficient,
should, as a matter of necessity, impose a borough rate, and that
rate was to be in the nature of a county rate, as being levied on
that descriFtion of property which contributed towards the Poor
Rate. Those gentlemen who contended that the town councils
would have a dangerous power were entirely in error.—( Hear.)
Nothing would be more dangerous than that they should have
the power of superseding the enactments of the law by relieving
any party from the payment of the rate, but they had not
that power. As the Bill now stood the rate must be levied
upon all descriptions of property now liable to county rate,
or what amounted to the same thing, it must be taken out of
the Poor Rate. He was afraid that when the Noble Lord came
to consider the 79th Clause, he would find great difficulty
in bringing its provisions into operation ; but he would
not mix up the observations ho intended to offer upon that clause
with the 6th clause. If he understood the Bill, the borough rate
must be taken out of the poor rate. Under these circumstances,
finding that the Bill had adopted the principle for which he
( Sir R. Peel) had contended, he should not seek to disturb its
operation by any new arrangement.—(Year.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that it would be better
to reserve the discussion upon this point until the 79th
clause came under the consideration of the House.—( Hear,
and cheering.) Those who bad to pay borough rate,
would merely have to pay an additional sum, but that would
not come in the shape of a separate rate.
After a few words from Sir R. PEEL,
Mr. POULETT THOMPSON thought the principle'
could be much more advantageously discussed when the 79th
clause was brought forward. By an Act passed in 1831, all
the rate-payers; without distinction had not only a right to
vote, but were qualified for any office. That, Act had pro-
duced infinitely more content and satisfaction in Salford than
in Manchester. He knew that it caused great dissatisfaction in
the latter town, but in Salford there were no heart-burnings,
and affairs were carried on just as well if riot better than in
Manchester.
After a few words from Mr. YOUNG, the purport of
which we could not catch,
Mr. BROTH E RTO N said, with respect to the satisfaction
the Manchester Police Act had given, be thought when he stated
that at the time the Act was solicited in the town of Manchester
a public meeting was held, and a petition was signed, by a
great portion. of the inhabitants, against the Bill—( Hear,
hear, hear)—and he recollected that the expence was about
40,0001. He had the honour of waiting upon the Right Hon.
Baronet, and he stated it was impossible to prevent the wishes of
the people from being complied with. The Bill was modified
from what it was at first ; but in the Bill so modified, out of
140,000 inhabitants, there were in the first year only 2,400
electors; and at this moment they did not exceed 3,000. In a
year or two after an application was made for a Bill for
Salford, and to avoid the heart-burnings and contentions kept
up in Manchester it was proposed that every rate-payer should
have a vote. They had acted on that principle, and had given
universal satisfaction. Out of the 50,000 inhabitants there were
2,000 electors under a 101. franchise, and ho did not believe
that more than that number paid the borough rates. He must
confess that he agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet regard-
ing the payment of rates.
Mr. B A INE S, in corroboration of what had fallen from
the Hon. Member for Salford, would only remark that in
Leeds there were as many as eight or ten townships, every one
of which had a poor's rate of its own. He did not see how
they could amalgamate the two rates at, all. He wished the
Noble Lord to have that view of the case before him, when
he was considering the subject.
Mr. EST COURT wished to know whether it would not
be better to state in the proviso distinctly that the clause only
contemplated those premises within the borough.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that was provided for in an
after clause. - -
Upon that part of the dins° which deprives those re-
ceiving parochial relief or other alai's; -it was proposed that all
persons receiving any relief from the Corporation, or parochial
funds should not be entitled to vote,

•J• •••
Mr. lIOGG proposed to limit the disqualification to those
eceiving parochial relief.
A desultory conversation ensued, in which the Attorney-
General, Sir M. Ridley, and Mr. H. Hughes took part.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that too enlarged
a sense was given to the word "alms." If all charities were
alms, he questioned whether the Bill would not deprive himself,
and several other Hon. Members, who, as fellows of colleges,
wew benefited by funds which, in one sense, might be consi-
dered eleemosynary. What was intended by the clause was,
that persons should not be allowed to vote who were depen-
dent on charity for their support, being in a state of poverty
or pauperism. •
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would be better for Hon.
Gentlemen to reserve their observations on this subject till
the Committee had gone through the clauses relating to the
charities and trusts.
Clause 6, as amended, was then ordered to stand part of
the. Bill.

Clause 7 was then put.
Mr. EWART suggested an amendment to the effect that
inhabitant householders who had been in occupation for three
years, and who had paid their rates through their landlords,
should be allowed, if they offered to take on themselves the
payment in future, at once to become burgesses.
Mr. PEASE supported the suggestion, and said that the
clause in its present form would disfranchise many of a valuable
class of burgesses.
Sir S. WHALLEY also supported the proposal, and
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would take it into con-
sideration.

The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 8 was then put.

Lord J. RUSSELL then proposed to substitute the
amended clause which had been printed and for some time in
the hands of Members, to the effect— _ _

" And be it enacted, that if any person who shall have been
enrolled a burgess of any Body Corporate within any borough,
according to the provisions of this Act, shall at any time there-
after be omitted from the said burgess roll, he shall thereupon
cease to be a burgess and member of the said Body Corporate :
provided nevertheless, that if on the last day of August in any
year within two years next after the time at which he shall so
cease to be a burgess, he shall bona fide occupy any house,
warehouse, counting-house, or shop within the said borough,
and shall be bona fide an inhabitant householder within the said
borough, or within seven miles of the said borough, he shall be
entitled to claim as hereinafter provided, and upon such claim
again to be and be enrolled a burgess and member of the said
Body Corporate, provided that on the last-mentioned last day
of August he shall be otherwise qualified as herein provided,
except in respect of the length of his continuous inhabitancy
and occupation as aforesaid."
Lord STANLEY said, that according to the proposed
clause, any person might be struck off the burgess-roll for
non-payment of rates, and he might then, provided that next
year he occupied a house—whether he had ceased to occupy
It in the .mean time or not—simply by the payment of the
rates for alternate years, be admitted as a burgess, just in the
same manner as if lies had paid the rates for the three years.
If his Noble Friend meant to say, that'fbe- person who, from
accidental circumstances, was omitted from
.the burgess-roll, or
because be bad for a short time left the borough and returned
again, and who should pay the whole amount of rates due in
the interval of the three years, and then continue to occupy,
that his intermediate absence should not be taken into account,
to disqualify him from I.,isg admitted, he ( Lord Stanley),
for one, should riot say one word in opposition. But if he
meant to say, that the person who in 1833 had not paid
the rates. necessary to qualify him to vote in 1835, should,
if he paid in 1834, not the rates of 1833 and 1834, but the
rates of 1834 alone, be entitled to vote in 1835, he (Lord •
Stanley) did think that such an arrangement would do
away with the whole object of the portion of the Bill
in question, which was that of producing a continuous
rate-paying;. He bad no object beyond taking care that the
rights and privileges conferred by the Bill were given to the
permanent occupiers and rate-payers of the boroughs. While
he was speaking, be would mention one case which he
thought deserving of attention, in the way of extending the
right of freedom. He would suggest that where a person
should succeed to property in a borough, by will or inhe-
ritance, the .person -to whom be succeeded having paid the
rates for the three years, a provision might be made, under
which the person so succeeding- should be placed in the
situation of the, person whom he had succeeded, and enjoy
the benefit of the continuous rate-paying. He wished, how-
ever, to have a distinct explanation from his Noble Friend
on the subject of the first point to which he had alluded.
If the intention of the clause were that a person paving
the rates in alternate years, and refusing from fraud, or other
causes, to pay at all, should be entitled to be put in the burgess-
roll, he (Lord Stanley) should regard it as most objectionable,
and should wish to have the sense of the House in some mea-
sure taken upon the. matter.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not of opinion that the
diffi-
culty contemplated by his Noble Friend would arise under
the clause—that -any ease of fraud was likely to occur. In the
case of non-payment of rates, he did not think that it was pos-
sible to frame any clause which should provide for the re-
fusal to pay, or for absence caused by a fraudulent disposition,
or some other circumstance. It was necessary to frame the
clause with regard to the general probability of the case.
If a man did not pay his rates, it was to be supposed gene-
rally that lie was absent at the time ; that he had been
called away to go to sea, or to visit some distant part of
the country, in consequence of commercial business, and that
because of aueses4er4 to that business, he bad omitted to do that
which lie had done constantly, forperhaps 5, or 0, or 10 years
before, viz., pay the rates necessaraeto qualify him to become
a burgess. In that case—Which ought to be looked on'ns the
general one—a hardship would arise, if it were not permitted
to the individual, under such circumstances, to be again ad-
mitted, without however passing through the whole three
years. His Noble Friend said, " Let him pay the rates du-
ring the whole intermediate time of his absence ;" but he
(Lord John Russell) did not think it necessary to require
that. Having been previously for three years an inha-
bitant of the borough, and having paid his rates for that pe-
riod, he ought to be allowed to obtain re-admission by simply
continuing again to pay from the time that be returned to the
borough.
Lord STANLEY said that his Noble Friend did not
appear to see the whole force of his objection. The
clause, as it originally stood, was very imperative. It said,
" that if any person who who shall 'pave been enrolled a bur-

to
the
pro -
Ih,
ion;, corporate_th,s
.A loaunastye
abioyruotituitmgi
thereafterhaco cuoserdi.
gopa
reh
&ate oceupy tiny Houk,. '+l the case of'ab-
siidp,*ithin boraugh"--that Werra,.
sence--.j‘ eonfiniied the clause, " neglect or renr.; pay
such rates as aforesaid dito fiartt frith at the tinge of the revi-
sion of the burgess-roll, except as ficreini3efore is excepted,
hi? name 5:;Wall at the next revision of the begossh-roll be struck
out from the said bist.ge.s-roll, and lie shall thereupon cease to
be a burgess and member of the eid body corporate." Then
came the proviso stating that under ceTttin eiretnnstauces he
should be restored. Those two causes of omissitilt mentioned
in the original clause—absence and refusal to pay—had been
sedulously left out in the clause as amended, which simply
said, " If any person, &c., shall at any time hereafter be
omitted from the said burgess-roll." He did not contend
against the case of an occasional absence and return, suppos-
ing always that it was of a bona fide nature ; but he did con-
tend against the case of a man who ceased to pay rates and
continued his occupancy—who never left the borough, but
every alternate year neglected or refused to pay his rates.
Lord HO WICK could show his Noble Friend that the Bill
as it stood guarded against the inconveniecce which he appre-
hended. The objection was, he understood, taken to the ad-
mission of a man who one year neglected or refused to pay his
rates, but who the next year should pay them without paying
the arrear of the intermediate period. The clause said that
" He shall be entitled to claim as hereinafter provided, and
upon such claim again to be enrolled a burgess and member of
the said body corporate, provided that on the last mentioned
last day of August he shall be otherwise qualified as herein
provided, except in respect of the length of his continuous in-
habitancy and occupation as aforesaid." In the sixth clause
one of these qualifications, the possession of which was stated
in the eighth as necessary to re-admission, was declared to
be the payment of all rates. It was there distinctly stated
that " no person shall be enrolled in any year unless he shall
have been rated in respect of such premises so occupied by
him, &c., or unless he shall have paid during the 'time of his
occupation, as aforesaid, all such rates due from him in respect
of the said premises, except such as shall have been made or
become due within six calendar months next before the said
last day of August." It was, therefore, quite clear that no
person would be entitled to vote until he had paid all rates due
from him. _ _

Lord STANLEY was quite satisfied by the explanation of
his Noble Friend as to what were the opinions of the Govern-
ment ; but knowing that the clauie had excited doubts in the
minds of many, he thought it worth while considering whether
words might not be introduced for the purpose of rendering it
More clear.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the object of
the clause was merely to meet the bona fide case of a person
ceasing to occupy for a time, though he might have been for
a considerable period previous an occupier and a rate-payer.
Lord STANLEY would ask his Hon. and Learned Friend
then, whether he would have any objection to limit the means
of re-admission to that case by inserting words such as would
bring the clause into some such shape as the following:—
That if any person who shall have been enrolled a burgess
of any Body Corporate within any borough, according to the
provisions of this Act, shall at any time thereafter, by reason
of the interruption of such occupancy, be omitted," &c.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that if he could
have a little conversation with his Noble Friend, he should
either convince him that the alteration was unnecessary, or
agree to have it introduced.
Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY trusted that the Noble Lord
(Lord John Russell) would not agree to any amendment of
any kind.
Mr. JERVIS said that the effect of altering the clause
would be to deprive any person who, from some technical
informality, had been omitted from the burgess-roll, of the
means of re-admission, except by passing again through three
years, although he had been still a continuous occupier and
rate-paver.
Mr. .BROTHERTON thought it desirable to allow some
means of re-admission.
Sir W. FOLLETT said that the addition of a few words
stating the necessity of paying up arrears of rates would
much improve the clause. The Noble Lord (Stanley) had
made a suggestion in reference to persons coming into the
occupancy of premises through the acquisition of property by
will or inheritance—
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL interrupted the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, by saying that that suggestion
would be adopte§l.
Mr. GROTE called attention to the case of the interrup-
tion occurring during the first three years—the period in
which it was most likely to take place. That did not seem
to be provided for by the clause.
Mr. SCARLETT said that as there was still some doubt
about the point which had just been discussed, perhaps the
Noble Lord would consent to insert the words which had been
proposed.
After a short discussion, the amendment of Lord Stanley
was inserted in the clause pro formd,
Lord J. RUSSELL remarking, that the clause would in
all probability receive alteration in one or two particulars, and
promising that words of the same meaning (because the words
of the Noble Lord (Stanley) were not perhaps the best that
might be used), as those proposed would be used in the fram-
ing of the clause before it was submitted for the final decision
of the House.

The clause was then agreed to.
On the question that clause 9 stand part of the Bill being put,
Mr. TREVOR and an Hon. Member made a few remarks
in defence of the rights of freemen ; but it being proposed
that clause 9 should be wholly omitted,
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bernal) reminded the latter Hon. '
Member, that if his object was to negative the clause, it might I
be much better answered by waiting until the amendments
proposed regarding it should be disposed of.
Sir W. FOLLETT, in rising to move an amendment of
the clause then submitted to the House, would offer no oppo-
sition to any detail of the Bill, which, if agreed to, would have
the effect of furthering or securing the object which the Bill
in its preamble professed, namely, "To render Corporations
better and more efficient instruments of local government."
The House, however, was new called on to consider a clause
which had no reference whatever to the principles involved in
the Bill.—( Hear, from the Opposition.) It was a clause which
had no relation to the improvement of the municipal govern-
ment of Corporate towns—one of the details of the measure
which had not the slightest connection with the principles, the
establishment of which the Bill was said to have in view.—
(Continued cries of " Hear, hear I" from the same quarter.)
The dense professed to have two objects to accomplish; and
he was 'not quite sure whether it did not include a third,
which was not quite to apparent. He apprehended that it was •
the intention of those who brought forward this measure, that
the 9th clause, as it at present stood, should have the effect
of destroying the legal rights of freemen, particularly as re-
garded apprentices, and abolishing. their privilege of voting
for Members of Parliament. He supposed that another effect
of it would be, to extinguish the inchoate rights of freemen—
the rights of property, and the various privileges to which
they were entitled ; and he was not quite satisfied whether the
clause would not have the further effect of preventing ell ex-
isting freemen from voting fur Members of Parliament. Now,
if he were wrong in attributing the last effect to this provision
of the Bill, he hoped that even though his amendment wore
lost, the Noble Lord would take care and secure beyond
doubt the right of existing freemen to have a share in the
choice of Members of that House.
• Lord JOHN RUSS F L L—Do you mean with regard to
the right of freemen voting for Members of Parliament ?
Sir W. FOLLETT—Yes; he was anxious that the most
valuable privilege which the freemen possessed—namely, that
of a right to choose representatives in that House, should be
preserved, at all events, for the benefit of existing freemen.—
' (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) It might not be the in-
tention of his Majesty's Government that the rights of existing
freemen to vote for Members of Parliament should be inter-
fered with ; but, as the Dill thee stood, a certain mode was
prescribed, by which the burgesses under the new corporate
body should be enrolled. Now, the freemen being admitted
to vote for Members of Parliament because they were members
of the corporate body of the town to which they belonged, it
became a question whether the right to which he had alluded
Was reserved when the constitution of those bodies was changed,
and the freemen, as originally appointed, were, in -fact, no
longer members of them. He did not wish to impute to his
Majesty's Government any such intention as that which he
had supposed ; but he trusted that the Noble Lord or his
Hon. mid Learned Friend the Attorney-General, would, as
soon as possible, clear Alp all doubts on the point. He
should now call the attention of the House to the admitted
objects of the clause. It was acknowledged, in the first
place, that persons now in existence, having an inchoate right
to take out their freedom, were to be deprived by this clause
of that right, as well as of the rights of property and the pri-
vileges to which, as freemen, they were entitled. It was
further admitted that the effect of the clause would be, that
every person having now an inchoate right, so far as regarded
the privilege of voting 'for Members of Parliament, would be
deprived of that privilege by being prevented from beecniiveg
freemen of the town to which they belonged. It was certainly
• true that these two descriptions of right were different ; but he
did not agree that they stood on different grounds. They
ought, perhaps, to be discussed separately. He should, how-
ever, with the permissiOn of the Committee, call their atten-
tion to the infringement of the rights of property effected by
this clause. But whilst upon this part of the subject he begged
to remind the House of a question put by his Honourable
Friend the Member for Oxford, last night, to the Noble
Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) as to the intention of the
Government with respect to the property held by Corporations
for specific purposes. The 'Noble Lord at first anawered that
it was not the intention of Government to interfere with this
species of property, but to place it in the hands of the new
Corporate bodies or trustees, to be applied to the purposes for
which it was held by the existing Corporations. The Noble
Lord, however, afterwards, in an answer to a question put by
his Right Hon. Friend the Member fOr Tamworth, qualified
his first answer, and stated (if he understood him properly),
that property which had been left for specific purposes, should
be devoted to objects connected with charitable uses.— ( Hear,
from the Opposition.) If he was right in taking the last as
the decisive opinion of the Noble Lord, and one in which
lie". presumed his Hon. and Learned Friend the Attor-
ney-General acquiesced, then he must be permitted to
say, with all due deference, that this Bill had been introduced
without due inquiry, and without proper examination into de-
tails which endangered the existence of propertylield by va-
rious Corporations for distinct and specific pursoscs.—( Cheers
from the Opposition.) With respect to the inchoate rights to
Which lie had before referred, they were possessed, le con-
tended, by certain persons who, on becoming of age, were en-
titled to their frcedem, not as a matter of grace, favour,' or
purchase, but as the effect of a legal vested interest, the en-
joyment of which they bad a right to claim.—(Hear. ) Now,.
he would bring under the attention of the House a statement
• whirl) le lad received with reference to the rights and privi-