The Sun.
London, England, 1866-04-27 00:00:00

THE REFORM BILL.

Mr. FERRAND asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether he would pledge himself to withdraw the six-
teenth clause, disfranchising the dockyard electors, in the
event of the Representation of the People Bill being read a
second time.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would
be premature for him to answer the question before the
second reaiing had been decided.
OYSTER FISHING.

Mr. S. CAVE asked the President of the Board of
Trade, whether it was true that the Customs authorities
of New Shoreham had strict orders to seize and destroy
all oysters brought into that port from the
deep sea beds between the 30th April and Ist
September, but that no such orders had been issued in
respect of ports north of the North Foreland ; and in fact
oysters taken from the same beds were landed from these
ports during the above period ; if so on what principle
this distinction was made, as the words of the Act 18 and
19 Vic., c. 101, s. 2, empowered officers of the Customs to
seize " any oysters imported into or landed in any port of
the United Kingdom."
Mr. GIBSON said it was quite true, as stated by the
hon. gentleman, but it was solely for the purpose of the
Act of Parliament being put in force which prohibited the
importation of oysters during the close months between
May and August.
JLDGES IN IRELAND.

Mr. WHITESIDE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether, having regard to the amount of business in the
Landed Estates Court, Ireland, it was intended to fill the
pities of third judge, now vacant in that court by the death
of the late Judge Hargraves?

Mr. C. FORTESCUE said it was not intended to fill up
,he vacancy caused by the death of Judge Hargraves.

ITALIAN VOLUNTEERS.

Mr. H. SEYMOUR asked the Under Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs if her Majesty's Government had re-
ceived any information with regard to the alleged raid of
Italian volunteers on the Austrian territory; and whether
it had anything to do with the temporary refusal of the
Emperor of Austria to receive Count Arese and Signor
Venosta ?

Mr. L IYARD said the Government had reason to be-
lieve that the whole matter was unfounded. No informa-
tion on the subject had been received.

THE BUDGET.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said as it
was intended to finish the debate on the Reform Bill to--
morrow evening, he should, on Thursday next, bring for-
ward his financial statement.
THE REFORM BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Mr. LOWE rose and said—As we aro now on the second
reading of the bill for the purpose of reducing the electoral
franchise it is not inopportune to ask what is the principle
of the bill. (Hear, hear.) Our information upon this subject
at the present moment is very meagre. (Hear, hear.) We
have learnt from my right hon. friend the President of the
Board of Trade that the principle of this bill is to reduce
the franchise,and we have learnt from the Solicitor-General
for Scotland, as I understood, that the principle of the bill
is to fill upwith figures two blanks, which the Government
propose to fill up with £7 and £l4 respectively, but which
we can fill up with any number we think proper. These are
the rather shady-coloured views which have been imparted
to us on this important, question. I submit that they neither
of them answer the question at all, because the
principle of
a bill does not mean the scope and tenor of the bill, it does
not mean the thing the bill professes to do, but the ground
or reason on which it is based, and upon that, as far as I
am aware, her Majesty's Government have been entirely
silent. I can only imagine two grounds on which this bill
can be proposed to the house, this bill for lowering the elec-
toral franchise. The first of those grounds is, that the
franchise ought to be given for its own sake ; and the se-
cond is that it is the means for obtaining some ulterior ob-
ject. Which of these two is the principle of the bill ? The
first principle has at any rate the merit of extreme simpli-
city, and those who profess it are very little troubled either
with proof or investigation. According to their theory, all
they have to find is a person fitted to have the electoral
franchise—and they are not very particular in exacting
proof of fitness, nor very strict in the presumptions which
they apply to it—and that having that person the giving of
the franchise to him follows as a matter of immediate and
cogent necessity. According to this view this is not a ques-
tion of politics at all. It is a question of morality, of right
and wrong. It is a debt, to use the words of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and when you find a man presumably fit,
or whom you choose to consider fit, for the franchise,accord-
ing to this view you are as much bound to give it him asyou
are to pay your own ordinary debts, and that to deliberate
about it is as much an act of turpitude as to deliberate
when you will pay your creditors. Thus all those citizens
who are not admitted to the franchise become creditors of
the state, and every day, and every hour, you withhold it
froth them is, according to this view, wrong accumulated
upon wrong, a denial of justice, a disgrace and. an
eoPP
briutn to those who act in this manner. That iswown view
hether
that may be taken. It is very important to kn,ord
because
it is the -new on which this bill is brought
eludes anything like reason or argainen cs
impossible to
it is a view which, whatsoever other merits it
either flies so high or sinks so low that
propound it may be
deal with it by argument.
.Thoserbe
great philosophers—they sn st
on
noieryret dthl
haeayeP artdt shotwel eronsf
hand,
f;asl doc-
trinei3t,politics.
33 politicians,tso nor are they using arguments
religion of humanity.
they are not.
or doctrines within range ofsciencemay,
(Conservative cheers.uerne
fallacy and the most obvious
mistaken the means for the end, and
umofa 3
r ai
from '
that because we all believe. our long
electivemenianyohstavPefranchise is a pod thing to attain the
experience
error.v i ct victims sTohfetyh
infer
of it, that the
end of good government, that, there.ore, it is necessarily a
good thing in itself. They have this great adVantage, as all
enthusiasts, all persons believing in immediate intuition,
establishing arbitrary connection of ideas have over those
who are not so fortunate, that they entirely emancipate
themselves from the necessity of looking to conshuences.
(Cheers.) They are free altogether from those complicated,
those troublesome, and embarrassing contemplations of the
future effects of their measures. They divest their minds
altogether from these things, and fall back OA the priucipl•

consequences?thatw
i the
Thatb et
maintain—and
ue
ar right
c lhg ashsc oht
expedient, in
action,
nde
et
eis e
er pre
swho
principle
the greatest
eshueeteot
means
hmf
alb
st th att ohb
eel
question.•ra
ne
balf
franchise,
dat
cb
elsml second
viewelhndivdkeesreor
on:
hon ieiresr
other
political
politicalnt
ol not
ing
'very
much Yhate
taht:
can be obtained)—expediency, good government, the pre•
serration of order in the country, to keep the just balance
of classes, and to prevent any predominance or tyranny of
one class over another. This
.prin.ciple, we have been told
is not one of the British constitution, and I will, therefore,
with the permission of thteeheo7utshe,oref
lifer to a few words of the
the
fiprresatmstbalteutoe,f tashefasrtaas
allusion
nis
tiso
tultea'm aware, that contains any declara-
tion
with regard to electoral rights, aenn.dryhaVsla.
the
body from which the knights of the'
that act it was determined that ‘h` neobsnelurtane)owshera
Look -At the
el l elected.
h ave a v
cßle
possessed of a f.ve-
for a knight of the shire unless
hold amounting in value to 40s. annuaillys.
principle here laid down. In the first place it recites ghat
.g too
great a number of people have been involved in ttLe r
election. That is the danger—the too great size of electoral
of
districts, so as to make them unwieldly. In the next place, it,
contemplates the fact that a class may be swamped by anc4..,
ther class of less importance and of less weight in the country
and, in the third place, it establishes that a voter ought to
possess a certain qualification—a principle embodied in the
doctrine that the franchise ought not necessarily to bo given
to any man not qualified for it, or to any man unfit for it.
ct(b:Huaetse
fisawtrsn,ehehoos hear.) algodr )btf t
ehSs
oeao
personlot oho dawteeatdhl
on
wtnvoiwotst ehhwoti sahmmen
swamp another.
qt
ulisut oeosb e refe r r e d merely to
proposedtthioenr . t h(atHteencenorn:shieenr,gtrilt.e;
The same authority lays down this second ground, that ho w-
ever we may differas to the quantum of the franchise, we havo
a common grounder argument, and if that be so it may not
be impossible to arrive at some sort of compromise. As to
the advocates of the first principle there is no common
ground of reasoning, and no man who holds the theory that
everything in politics must be referred to the safety andgood
government of the state, can agree with the Under Secre-
tary of State (Mr. Layard) that it is better to be governed
less effectually by a large representative body than more
efficiently by a small representative body. (Cheers from the
Opposition.) Which of these principles does the bill go upon ?
To ascertain this you must ask what the bill will do ? What
will be the number of persons enfranchised under this bill?
If we know that, then we know the manner in which these
numbers will be distributed ; we then have data up to which
we can argue as to what her Majesty's Government intend
us to understand by it. But lam met hero by the glee
difficulty occasioned by the' Government —(hear, hear)—
taond.therefore it is impossible fbr me to guide the vote I have
eituhseirnafoccrineradtiinogn to the number of persons to be en-
franchised, or to the man,hnneenraGinotovwedhich they will be distri-
elusion without it. When this bill
b
giv
frome
rnirenictenu
distri-
buted. (Rear, hear.) T
was
brought
choosesrtoou
cgohm tcome to
nttoo,
it
atwith-
holdwo na
s
intended to be merely a franchais and the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, acting upon
I never heard, in order to assist our
strangedelizinciple of which
ratiotonzolatibde I
be-
fore us statistics of what might be expected
suit of the change. That was satisfactory. But the prem.'',
and certain members of this house, bore down upon the
Government, and they began to slide. First of all, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer declined to lay on the table a
bill for the redistribution of seats ; but ultimately he said
he would lay such a bill upon the table ; and then, advane-
irg another step, growing bolder the further he went, ho
lsaaiidd
dhoe
wwno would df
oproceed, thetwhiatthw he
when
bill upon
the
yha tdh
lea
itda b ,and l e
before
the
house the two parts of the bill, they would be prepared to
stand or fall by it. (Hear.) Well, then, thewlaole question
becomes changed. When the Government made up their
minds to bring in a Redistribution of Seats Bill the obvious
course would have been to withdraw the Franchise Bill
and bring in the additional measure, so that the two might
be considered together. (Hear, hear.) Plain, downright
common sense could see no other course. Self-love and
pride, and a number of other things, caused the Govern-
ment to desire to appear to concede as little as possible.
So the challenge they made was one by which they deter-
mined to put the Administration in jeopardy because of
the bill. I never heard or read of any conduct
on the part of the Government so utterly irrational and
unintelligible. (Cheers from the Opposition.) Until we
know the distribution of seats we do not know the number
of persons to be brought into the constituency. If you take
the borough seats, there is one which many people would
prefer to take rather than any other. (Laughter.) And sup-
mdiedmtbehart
f
r
yfprooonsme
wy itoo
tuuol
dwa
note oroetn
merely
st ot
itturea nn
cs
ee, rs
transferringathe
nrLgah
nt co sf
rhe
politictr e uni
afi lnygpowerau
one body of men to another, but you would be enfranchis-
ing a great number of men of the class of 47 householders
who up to this time have never enjoyed political existence
of any such kind. Before we make such a change we ought
to know the number of persons to be enfranchised and the
proposed distribution of seats. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
member for Birmingham says that you might establish
universal suffrage, and yet that you might continue to neu-
tralise its effect so as to make the representation less popular
than it was before. We are ignorant at present of what is
proposed to be the second part of the Government measure,
and, therefore, we do not know in the least what the effect
of the whole change is likely to be. It is quite right that in
a matter of great Imperial policy, on which it is desirable
that certain information should be kept secret, the Govern-
ment should call upon their supporters, and even upon the
Opposition, to trust them. But in this case important infor-
mation is kept back apparently from mere wantonness.
(Cheers.) It seems as though it were a trial of power, in
order to see whether the Government can make the House
of Commons pass under the yoke or not. It seems
to be their desire to see whether they can exhibit us
to the country as persons content to be treated with this
degree of indignity (hear, hear). We have been subjected to
the indignity of having a great part of the provisions ckf the
bill concealed from us until we have given a vote upon the
subject. (Hear.) Look at the language that was used by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he spoke at Liverpool.
He said he knew the people with whom he had to deal.
Was that the sort of language that ought to have
been used ? It seemed to indicate that the House of
Commons was better known than trusted. (Cheers, and
laughter.) Then let me refer to the language of my right
hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade, who
avowed that the Government wanted to bring in the mea-
sure in such a way that the House of Commons should be
compelled to pass it. Was that respectful to the House of
Commons ? If you were dealing with a horse, and were
trying to discover whether it was a roarer or not—(great
laughter)—l could understand your getting in into one cor-
ner of the stable and givingit a sharppunch to see whether
it would grunt. (Renewed laughter.) But the Commons of
England are not exactly the class of people to be treated
in this manner. (Hear, hear.) Then, again, look at the lan-
guage of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr.
Goschen), who observed, " Some people say that we have
ditided the bill into two parts, but we thought we could not
carry the whole ; but we thought we could carry it in two
halves, and therefore have acted as we have done." There-
fore, on the one part there is an attempt to force us, andon
the other there is a desire to take us in. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) It is possible that the two parts of this bill, pre-
sented separately, may amount to more than would have
been obtained if they had been presented in the first in-
stance as a whole. It has also been said by Hallam that
one of the great advantages of having the leading mem-
bers of the Government in this house is that they owe a,
double allegiance—one, as leading members of the Govern-
ment to this house, and the other to the Crown ; and that,
while not wanting in duty to the one, they will not be
wanting in respect to the other. Mr. Hallam was a v-ery
good historian, but he was not a good prophet. (Hear.) if
he had lived to this time he might have seen that, while
allegiance might be shown to the Crown, there might also
exist the desire to humiliate and degrade this house in tits
eyes of the country. (Loud cheers.) I might here quote,
with slight alteration, an old epigram—

" Whatever the pain may coat,
It is time we should say each adieu,
For your confidence in us is lost,
And we have not sufficient in you."
(Loud laughter.) That is a remarkable position, and very
few men contrive to get into it twice in their lives. But
the Chancellor of the Exchequer has enjoyedthat happiness. When the right hon. gentleman went out as Lord High
Commissioner Extraordinary to the lonian Islands, under proposed a reform
the Government of Lord Derby, be to
the Chambers of the lonian Islands, and one part of
that
reform was that the posvers of the Lord High Commis-
sioner ,ommis..
sioner should be defined byanact of the assembly,
and
they were very ewcePing. be and
exceptions,
arbitrary, but the right hon.
gentleman said there must and that •
tion must be that all the powers that her MaJ' except
she might do by esty might
choose to e order •
in council.
(Laughter.) Then, as was urged by my
member for K noble friend the
King Lynn (Lord St
admit that we ought to have e Stanley), the Government
xtr
10 11/4 be fore we gio .1. a information furnished
rho erym,
T'ittee'
and th'y prnrlsse t-_,
produce it immediately if the bill be read a second time,
corner." It is a task give it us until they "get us into a
Worthy of the subtle genius of the
Chancellor of the
is so e Exchequer to show us that this informa-
tionstran^-ed from the principle of the bill that it is
considered by us on the question of the
second reading of the bill
But if this knowledge.d is neces-
sarily
intertwined with the
proper
at this stage, why is it not communicatedco consideration
oe
beforethe billwe
go into committee ? (Hear, hear.) We are told rumours
are abroad, and perhaps we must not be unwilling to be-
lieve
them, though I think the Government have gone far
enough in conceding what is to be done after the second
reading, but I am told that we are to be offered one
more concession, and that, if we will only con-
descend to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer
a victory over us, when we get into committee the two
bills shall advance pari yam. (hear, hear.) Would it
show that you were properly treated? would it show that
you were doing your duty to the Government and to your
constituents, would it show that you were acting worthily
of the dignity of this great assembly, and consistently with
the relations between this house and the executive Govern-
ment—(hear)- to allow a proposition of this sort to be
broachedat the last moment, when it would be too late to
reply ?_(loud cheers)—and I beg has. =Pl4b,gs to bsery
this before it ie too late, and if gm do I* they vr4 il4