The Sun.
London, England, 1835-05-16 00:00:00

COUNTY RATES.

The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition
from the owners and occupiers of land in the county of
Stafford, to which he begged to call the attention of
the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government.
In the King's Speech promises were held out that something
would be done by the late Administration in favour of the
landlords and occupiers of land, and especially with respect to
the grievance of County rates. The petitions complain of the
oppressions of County rates, and of the grievances which they,
suffer from prison expenses,gaol expenses, the conducting of pub-
lic prosecutions, and on account of the money which they had to
pay for sending returns for the information of Parliament, all
of which expenditure falls on the County rates, and must be paid
out of the produce of the land. This petition, as he had stated,
was signed by many most respectable land occupiers ; he would
therefore beg to ask his Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) if
his Majesty's Government had taken into consideration the grie-
vances of which the petitioners complained ; he agreed with them
in thd statements contained in the petition, but with one ex-
ception. He did not think, as they did, that the Magistrates
should be deprived of the power of paying the rates, but that
the rate-payers themselves should appoint persons to do so.—
( Hear, hear.) By that process he thought a great expense
would be incurred. An Act of Parliament, in his opinion,
ought to be passed, specifying the object for which the rates
should be levied, and that then the magistrates should have the
power of paying them out. At present these County rates
were a great grievance, and he trusted that his Majesty's Go-
vernment would not permit much time to pass, without intro-
ducing some measure that would have the effect of making
this tax more fairly and equitably levied.
Lord MELBOURNE said it was the intention of the
Government to take into immediate consideration the re-
commendation contained in his Majesty's declaration from the
Throne, provided it was to be confined to the objects
specified in the report that would proceed from a Committee
of this and the other House of Parliament. If the expenses of
conducting trials—the removal of convicts, and the procuring
returns for the information of Parliament—if the removal of
these grievances were recommended by a Committee, he had
no hesitation in stating that so far his Majesty's determination
would be carried into effect, and he promised that no measure
would be left untried which would have a tendency to check
the unlimited, profuse, and unrestrained expenditure com-
plained of.

LORD MULGRAVE.
The Earl of WICKLOW, as he saw the head of his Ma-
jesty's Government in his place, without wishing to show any
demonstration of hostility, begged to ask him a question
which he conceived to be of the utmost importance. Cir-
cumstances had lately occurred in Ireland which deserved the
attention of his Majesty's Government—he alluded to the mode
and manner of entry into Ireland of the Lord Lieutenant of that
country. He (the Earl of Wicklow) was not disposed to pre-
vent any demonstration of regard which the community might
think proper to show to any particular favourite.—( Hear.)—
He was the last man to disapprove of a proper demon-
stration of public feeling ; but if the reports circulated
were correct, the circumstances were totally different
from those of any popular demonstration of feeling be-
fore that he had witnessed. It appeared that a cor-
tege was organised by the will and direction of one
individual of great power and influence in that country, and
erders were given in all the chapels for persons to assemble at
certain hours for the purpose of attending to swell this proces-
sion of illegal bodies of men, which was at direct vari-
ance with the common law of the land--(Hear, hear)—
and with a law, which was introduced into that
country two years ago by the Government, of which the
Noble Viscount was then Secretary of State—namely, the
Act for the suppression of disturbances and illegal meetings
in Ireland, which rendered it illegal for any bodies
of men to assemble with banners and the symbols
of party. If the facts were correctly stated, then the
Noble Lord had lent himself to that transaction in a
manner that rendered him incapable of holding the
sword of justice impartially in that country, because in
that high office to which he was elevated he was bound
to show the strictest impartiality to all parties, and
to prohibit and prevent such proceedings. What means
could he adopt for the purpose of carrying these purposes into
equitable effect, when he had entered the country in a
manner so directly in opposition to the law ?—( Hear, hear.)
It must certainly have a tendency to discourage the loyal and
peaceable inhabitants in that country, when they saw
their Governor lending himself to parties, and acting in a
manner which himself and his colleagues had so often de-
nounced in Parliament.—( Hear.) Another circumstance was
recorded to have taken place, for which, however, he had
no authority ; it was that the Solicitor-General of that
country, at a public dinner, sanctioned a toast, having for its
sentiment, a desire for the speedy repeal of the Union ; and
coupling that with the circumstance, of banners being marked
" Repeal of the Union"—" No Tithes"—" O'Connell for ever,"
&c., he hoped the Noble Viscount would take this opportunity
of setting the minds of the people at rest on this subject. The
question, therefore, was, first, had the Noble Viscount received
any authentic information that the Lord Lieutenant had en-
tered Ireland in the manner described ; secondly, what steps
had been taken on the part of the Government to show its
disapprobation of such proceedings.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord MELBOURNE replied that he had no official in-
formation upon the subject. All he had heard was that there
was a great congress of people; and a very enthusiastic de-
monstration of public feeling, but he had not heard of any ille-
gal processions, or exhibition of banners of parties, such as
were contemplated by the Act of Parliament alluded to
by the Noble Earl. If the law had been violated, doubtless
it would be vindicated by those means in the power of the
Government. With respect to the means taken to induce per-
sons to go and celebrate the entrance of the Lord Lieu-
tenant, he indeed apprehended that all such meetings were
ever spontaneous ; lie dared to say that the procession which
accompanied him to the water side, was wholly spontaneous.
.—( Hear, hear.) If any thing called for censure, he was
sure that the Noble Lord now at the head of the
Government there, was so entirely possessed of the spirit of
impartiality and equity, that he would conduct it on the prin-
ciple of even-handed justice, determined not to place himself
in the hands of any party or faction, but to administer the
law equally to all parties, and be the first to carry
it into effect against those who offended.—( Hear, hear. )
There were some other facts, to which he would not further
allude ; but he could not but take that opportunity of declaring
the grounds on which the Government, both in this country
and Ireland, were determined to act, and of expressing his
certain conviction, that those who violated the law would be
made to answer for that violation.—( Cheers.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to know
whether the orders for the procession had been issued by the
Protector of the Noble Viscount's administration in Ireland
(the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin) before the Noble
Earl's arrival—(Cheers and laughter)—and if they were, who
had the charge of carrying them into effect ? He thought al-
lowing banners such as had been used on that occasion, would
be productive of the very worst results, unless there was
someinterference on the part of the Government. The
Noble Viscount had said that he had not heard that such flags
and banners, bearing the inscriptions, " O'Connell," " The
Rising Sun of Ireland," and others, had been used on the
occasion. He (the Marquis of Londonderry) would tell the
Noble Viscount, if such were the case, that he was the only
person in the country that was not aware of it. It was it,
every newspaper in the kingdom, and it was as notorious as the
sun at noon day. In his opinion, some inquiry ought to
take place upon the subjeet.—( Cheers.) He had received a
letter from a friend of his in Ireland, who stated that upon
Lord Mulgrave's entrance, there had been a tremendous display
of O'Connell's party—such a one as might, if repeated on the
12th of July, lead to some tremendous conflict, if any opposi-
tion was given to the Orange procession that would
take place on that day—( Hear, hear)—as it would be
Impossible, in consequence of Lord Mulgrave allowing green
flags in that procession, to prevent the Orange party from in-
terfering.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition side.) If
the Lord Lieutenant, or some member of the Government
did not by some order or declaration evince their disapprobation
of such procedings, the Noble Viscount and his Government
might feel assured that the Orangemen would not rest quiet,
and the worst possible results would ensue. He did not state
these circumstances with any feeling of ill temper to the Noble
Viscount, or any other individual, but he must again reptat
that if some marked notice were not taken of these things, the
eonse uenees might be most serious on the 12th July. The
Noble Viscount could have no animosity against him for stating
what he was able to do ; but if report spoke truly, a person of
high authority had resigned his office in the Royal Household,
in consequence of the supposed authority of Mr. O'Connell.
He would again repeat, that if such things were allowed to
exist, the property of Ireland would stand forth, in order to
prevent the unhappy consequences that would arise. —( Cheers.)
Lord MELBOURNE considered the observations of the
Noble Lord most uncalled for, and lie begged to ask him
whether what had taken place in Ireland could have been
prevented, even if the Noble Marquis had been the
Lord Lieutenant. The Noble Lord had stated that some

interference on the part of the Government must take
place with respect to the subject.—(Hear, hear.) No
man deprecated more than he did such displays, for
the result of them always was, that when there was a display
on the one hand, there was also a display always on the
other.---(Great cheering from the Ministerial benches.)
But he assured the Noble Lord, that any thing illegal which
bad occurred on that occasion should be inquired into. It
was not in the power of the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government in Ireland—it was not in the power

of the Executive here, or on the other side of the
water—to prevent the general display of feeling on the recep-
tion of a Chief Governor, whom they hailed with satisfaction.
No man regretted more than did he ( Lord Melbourne) the
violence of parties in Ireland; he deplored that there still
existed a strong line of demarcation between the sects. He
wished that their feuds should be given over, and then something
might effectually be done towards establishing peace in Ireland.
But it was impossible to effect this if one party still adhered
to their former course of action ; the other could not be ex-

petted to lay down their prejudices, and it was more than
could be hoped from the weakness of human nature. The
Noble Lord adverted to a report circulated respecting the
resignation of a Noble Marquis of his situation in the
Household, which was said to have been caused by a difference
of opinion with the Government on political questions. He
( Lord M.) had the authority of the Noble Marquis for stating
that the causes set forth were entirely without foundation.
With respect to the subject of the Irish Government he con-
curred fully in the policy of the Administration and in the
views they took of regulating its affairs, and with this im-
pression it would be strange if he resigned for the reasons
stated by public rumour.
The Earl of HADDINGTON would not have risen if
allusion had not been made to the circumstances attending his
entry into Dublin. On that occasion there were neither flags,
banners, nor colours, nor in fact any out arard appearance of
party manifestation to meet the eye. It was indubitably
a spontaneous, unsolicited mark of regard and kindness paid
to him, by a very large and respectable assembly. Had he
(Lord Haddington) taken any steps to suppress the pro-
cession, they would have been unavailing—( Hear, hear)—
and it would have been a most ungracious return
for very great kindness. He knew not whether it was in the
power of his Noble Successor to prevent the manifestation of
opinion and feeling that did take place ; nor would he pro-
nounce any opinion upon it. But it was certain that he could
not have prevented that which did take place in his own case,
nor did lie see any reason to do so.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would not have men-
tioned the circumstance ; but that he had heard it most dis-
tinctly stated by a Noble Friend, who had it from the Noble
Marquis himself. It was on these grounds only that he had
stated it. _ _

Lord MELBOURNE here made a remark which was in-
audible in the gallery. _ .

Lord BROUGHAM happened to know, as far as it was
possible for a person to be distinct on such a circumstance,
that the whole statement attributed to the Noble Marquis was

incorrect, and that of his Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne)
was perfectly correct. The intention of the Noble Marquis to re-
sign the office of Lord Chamberlain was known to him some time I
previously, and the grounds of his resignation were totally dis-
tinct from those stated by the Noble Marquis opposite.
It was known to him (Lord B.) long before the knowledge of
what had occurred in Ireland had reached his Majesty's Go-
vernment ; for he knew it early last Saturday morning. It was
not necessary for him to state the whole of the conversation
which then took place between the Noble Marquis and himself,
but the grounds of his resignation were as completely diffe-
rent—he was about to say—as diametrically opposite as it was
possible for one reason to be from another.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would not press the
point further, but he did imagine that such a statement
would have come with a much better grace from some
of his Majesty's confidential servants, and would have been
more satisfactory than coming from the Noble and Learned
Lord, who is not one of his Majesty's Ministers.—( Hear. )
Lord BROUGHAM thought it must be very important and
satisfactory for their Lordships to know that any personal
communications relative to the Marquis of Wellesley could
only be answered or confirmed by one of his Majesty's
Ministers. It was unfortunate for the Noble Marquis,

that while any other person might have whom he pleased for
his witnesses, he could only have one of the King's Ministers.

_
--(Laughter.)
NEWSPAPER TAXES.

Lord BROUG H A M—l have now, my Lords, to present
your Lordships with a petition of which I gave notice—unless
the Noble Marquis has any further observations to make—[the
Marquis of Londonderry replied in the negative.] I felt it
my duty to give notice of this petition on account of the im-
portance of the body from which it emanates—the Corporation
of the City of London, comprising the Lord Mayor, Alder-
men, and Common Council. lam aware that this body is not
warranted by custom or by the privileges of the City to
pre-
sent their petitions by the Sheriffs at this bar, as they are pri-
vileged to do in the other House, but that they must be pre-
sented by some Member of your Lordships' House. Never-
theless, in order to relieve themselves from the appearance of
any want of proper respect to your Lordships, the Sheriffs
waited according to their custom in their robes of office upon
the humble individual before your Lordships, and requested
that I would lay this petition upon your Lordships' table. The
subject of the petition is one of very great importance—it
refers to the tax imposed upon the various sources of informa-
tion ; not upon political information alone, but upon all other
descriptions, by the law and the revenue of this country. The
petitioners do not confine their observations to the duty im-
posed upon Newspaper stamps, but they go further and point
out the impolicy of the tax upon paper, and consequently upon
books, which they represent, and most justly and most truly, as
must be evident to your Lordships, as a tax upon knowledge ot
all descriptions, political, civil, and religious. They therefore
pray that your Lordships will take the matter into your earliest
consideration, and make the dissemination of popular information
more general and cheap,by relieving it of the burdens under which
it at present labours. My Lords, having so lately had an op-
portunity of stating my opinions upon this subject, and the
reasons why I concur in the prayer of this petition, it would
ill become me, upon the present occasion, to enter at any
length upon it. I may remind your Lordships, however, that
the tax upon the raw material imposed by the stamp duty is
two hundred per cent.—there is a tax of two hundred per
cent. upon the prime cost of the newspaper, and this, it is
evident, must have the effect of preventing the dissemination
of knowledge, and of keeping instruction of various kinds
from those classes of the people to whom it is of the greatest
importance. It is a bar to the good Government of the
country, to the moral improvement of the community, and to
the proper administration of justice ; while, on the other
hand, its dissemination would tend to elevate the character
and improve the conduct of the people, and promote the sta-
bility of the Government. This knowledge is, therefore, kept
from the great mass of the people, to the great loss of the
community, and to the detriment of the Government, and the
institutions of the country. I would particularly call the at-
tention of your Lordships to the fact, that the effect of the
stamp-duty is not only to prevent the circulation of useful
information, but to encourage that of a dangerous kind—of
sedition, libel, illegality, blasphemy, and obscenity of all de-
scriptions. While the legitimate and useful newspapers are
sold (in consequence of the stamp-duty) at sevenpence each,
bad men publish their bad wares at a penny. The same tax
operates against the man in trade, who wishes to publish ad-
vertisements ; and it affects, more or less, all matters in which
publicity is required. In addition to this, these newspapers
are the only vehicles for conveying political intelligence,
the proceedings of Courts of Justice, and the execution
of the punishments awarded for offences, which should be
known to all classes of his Majesty's subjects. The amount
of the revenue obtained from this tcx is as nothing compared
with the importance of having the Parliamentary proceedings,
the debates in the House of Commons and of your Lordship?
House, and the alterations that may be made in the laws, gene-
rally known. And yet these papers are burdened with a
Stamp Tax of 200 per cent., while the unstamped publica-
tions, which disseminate sedition and incendiarism, and in one
instance, to my knowledge, recommended assassination, es-
cape—the bad wares are free, while the dealer in the whole-
some and sound article labours under a tax of 200 per cent.
The injury which results from this state of things to the
country, and to the proper administration of the laws, is, to
my mind, incalculable. Another argument against the present
system is the monopoly to which it gives rise. The London
daily newspapers are confined to five or six individuals, all
flourishing establishments, and I am glad of it ; but these in-
dividuals enjoy a monopoly of intelligence, and this impolicy
would not exist if it were not for the Stamp Duty, which
deters others from setting up newspapers. Take away this
tax, and you will find that there will be shortly many rivals
and competitors in the field. As an instance of the impolicy
of this tax, I shall state to your Lordships a fact that came
within my own knowledge. I some time since saw in a pro-
vincial newspaper an extraordinary statement, brought as a
charge against me, that I had at a public meeting—for of late
his Majesty's Ministers are guilty of the crime of attending
them—pronounced a most fulsome panegyric upon your Lord-
ships' House. I was accused of this, for such sentiments were
considered a very high offence by that newspaper. Your
Lordships will, perhaps, be willing to admit that the offence
admits of some palliation—(laughter)—more particularly as I
seldom indulge in panegyric upon your Lordships—( Renewed
laughter)—but the newspaper was of opinion that such an
offence was incapable of palliation or extenuation. " Was
there ever," it observed, " so abominable, so atrocious or in-
consistent a thing--( Great laughter)—as praising your Lord-
ships' House." I suppress the observations of the newspaper
upon this point, but it added, " as praising such a House"—
the words attributed to me• are these—" I defy all history,
ancient, or modern, of this or any other country, to produce an
example of an assembly so justly eminent in point of virtue,
which has rendered such great and important services, so truly
representing the feelings and interests of the country, so care-
fully protecting the rights and liberties of its fellow subjects,
and so distinguished by the greatest genius and the most pro-
found learning"—and I know not what more it added—" as
the present House ot Lords."—( Loud laughter, and cries of
" Hear, hear.") That was put into my mouth by the news-
paper—perhaps I ought to have said so—( A laugh)—but it so
happened that I never said a word of it.—( Hear, hear.) I
did not say all I thought; I neither eulogized nor vituperated
your Lordships' House, but I treated it worse. I treated your
Lordships with a disrespect, which is, perhaps, of all others
least readily forgiven—l never mentioned you.—( Hear.) I
said all this respecting the House of Commons, and the news-
paper, in order to lay the ground-work of an attack upon
me, accused me of having uttered a fulsome panegyric
upon a body to which I myself belonged. But, with
respect to the House of Commons, to which I no longer be-.
longed, I had a right to speak, and did state my sentiments
I very freely, although not in these words ; although the words
I used showed clearly that the " House of Lords" was an inter-
polation. I said the present House of Commons, in contradis-

,

tinction to former and unreformed Houses of Commons j:
this could not apply to the House of Lords, which is ofg(pirDsz...
manent character ; thus showing clearly that this- was
polation. The newspaper refers to its report of the speech iu
confirmation ; but on looking to the paper from which thc!,re-
port was taken, it was the " House of Commons," instead
the " House of Lords." On inquiring of a gentleman of that-)17
part of the country, how it was possible that such a paper, for
it was the only one published there, and was by no means re-
spectable, was allowed to go on, I was answered that they
must have some newspaper ; that attempts had been made, and
repeated three or four times, to establish a competitor but
none of them had strived more than six months, and the
complaint invariably was, that they had been stifled by the
newspaper stamp duty ; but for that, a rival paper would have
been in existence, and this misrepresentation put an end to.
This is a sample of the consequences of the monopoly, for it
enables the monopolists to do with impunity what, if they had
rivals, they never would venture to do. Were it put an end to,
attacks upon individuals, attacks upon our institutions, and
attacks upon the Government, would be much less frequent;
for where there is an honourable competition, instead of
consulting private and party interests, the object of these
papers would be to promote the amelioration of the
people, and the general cause of human improvement.
Those are the grounds upon which' the petitioners pray
for the remission of the newspaper duties, and 'in which I
cordially concur, so far as regards the stamp on newspapers.
They likewise add to this petition the abolition of the tax upon
paper, and the importation of Foreign Books. With respect to
the tax upon paper, the consequence is that some of the most
useful, some of the cheapest, and thereby most diffused and
useful publications of the present day—that of the Society for
the diffusion of Useful Knowledge—are in danger of being
given up from it, because the tax upon the paper makes the dif-
ference of being able or not able to go on with those publica-
tions at this very usefully low price. There is another society
with which some of the Right Rev. Bench are connected—
the Society for the Propagation of Christian Knowledge,—
which circulates very useful and cheap publications, and I ap-
peal to them if the tax is not a burden which they cannot sus-
tain, and that they would go on for ever in their useful labours
if only one-half the tax was taken off—that is all I ask. The
revenue will gain rather than lose by such a measure, and half
the tax will produce more excise than the whole does at pre-
sent, just as taking off the tax on newspapers will make up for
the loss the revenue may apparently sustain by the greatly en-
creased amount of advertisement duty. With respect to the '
tax upon Foreign books, I have no objection to a duty being
imposed for the protection of the Home trade, upon the works
which might enter into competition with ours, but to impose a
tax upon the importation of foreign books, which are never
published, and never can be published in this country, is one
of the worst proceedings any civilized government could have
recourse to. I speak feelingly upon this subject, for I had
this morning to pay a sum of 251. upon one work. I have been
lately in Paris, and while there, purchased a very valuable and
useful work, " Memoirs of the Academie of Science, and of
the National Institute,", which ran on to between 200 and 300
quarto volumes. This work is not to be had in any of the
Libraries here, and after having paid 921. for it in Paris, I had
this morning to pay in addition 251. duty, greatly more than
one-half of which is a tax upon the importation. I have no
objection to such works as Lord Byron's and others, which are
pirated from the English editions being taxed, but it is absurd
to tax a work of 252 volumes, which would never be printed in
this country ; and the worst of the system is that the works
which should be taxed escape, while the good are stopped, the
bringing over of which is a great public benefit. Just so with
regard to the stamp duty upon newspapers—the useful ones
are heavily taxed, while the bad and seditious article escapes
the payment of duty. Without entering at greater length
into the arguments which might be brought forward upon
this subject, I beg to lay the petition upon your Lordships'
table.
The Marquis of BUTE presented several petitions from
towns in Scotland, in favour of protection to the Church of
Scotland.

The Duke of BUCCLE UCH presented several petitions
'rom Ross-shire.
The House then adjourned till Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Mar 15.

The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past four o'clock.
Papers were presented from the Treasurers of Middlesex
Office, the Trinity House, and the East India House.
Mr. J. OSWALD presented a petition from the magis-
trates of Glasgow against the Paisley and Renfrew Railway
Bill.
Mr. Parker was introduced by Sir R. Inglia and Sir J. Y.
Buller, when he took the oaths and his seat for the South
Division of Devon, in place of Lord John Russell.