The Sun.
London, England, 1835-07-29 00:00:00

against the Bill. His Noble Friend must recollect that
two years ago a Bill was passed affecting the Scotch bo-
roughs
in a similar way, and which took the management of
the charitable funds out of the hands of the Corporations, and
placed them in the hands of certain trustees for the same pur-
poses. The present Bill provided that the charitable funds in
the hands of the various Corporations should be placed in the
hands of certain trustees, and fur such uses as such funds were
subject to previous to the passing of the Bill. He thought this
would be sufficient to satisfy the petitioners.
Viscount MELBOURNE suggested that if the Noble Vis-
count intended to press his motion to a division, it would be
better to allow the petitions to be first presented. The Noble
Viscount then presented petitions from Bristol, Harwich, Leo-
minster, Dartmouth, Leicester, and other places, in favour of
the Bill.
The Duke of C ITMBERL AND presented a petition
signed by 6,999 freemen of Coventry against the Bill.
The Earl of HADDINGTON presented a petition to the
same effect, from the Corporation of Rochester.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented petitions to the
same effect from Norwich, Newcastle-on-Tyne, Newcastle-
under-Line, and other places.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented petitions from
Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and other places, in favour of the Bill.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE also presented a petition from
Liverpool to the same effect, praying to be heard by Counsel
against it.
Lord STRANGFORD rose to move that the petitioners
from Coventry be heard by counsel at the bar of that House
in support of their privileges, and in opposition to scme of the
allegations contained in the Report of the Commissioners of
Municipal Inquiry. The Noble Lord proceeded to make some
observations in support of the motion, but in a tone of voice
which did not reach the gallery. We understood him to com-
plain of the manner in which the Bill would dispose of parti-
cular kinds of property, which had been bequeathed to Cor-
porations for charitable purposes. In alluded in particular to
Sir Thomas White's estate, which had been given for the be-
nefit of the freemen of Coventry, but which, under the ope-
ration of this Bill, would be diverted to uses totally at variance
with the intention of the donor.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord
concluded by moving that the petitioners be heard by counsel
at the bar.
Lord MELBOURNE suggested to their Lordships that it
would be utterly impossible for them to concur in the motion
of the Noble Lord who had just sat down, because that mo-
tion was consistent neither with precedent, reason, nor prin-
ciple. If the Report of the Commissioners, against which
the petitioners desired to be heard, imputed any misconduct
to the Borough of Coventry in particular, he was perfectly
ready to admit that the case would be a proper one in which
to hear counsel. But this was a measure founded, not upon
tne malfeasance of any particular Corporation, but upon one
broad, fixed, and general principle, applicable alike to all
Corporations. It was a general Bill, founded upon a ge-
neral principle, for the general advantage of the country. It
was a Bill similar to that which their Lordships had for-
merly passed for the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders in
Ireland, and with respect to which it was not deemed necessary
that Couasel should be heard at the bar. It was a Bill similar
to that which was passed a few years since for the general re-
formation of the representation of the people throughout the
kingdom—a Bill disfranching many, enfranchising others, de-
preciating the value of the property of some, enhancing the
value of the property of others—destructive of power and
authority here, communicative of power and authority there
—and yet that Bill, effecting so many changes, and variously
affecting so many various interests, was passed through both
branches of the Legislature without any Counsel being
heard, or any such proposition as that of the Noble Viscount
(Strangford) being made ; or if made, not for a moment
listened to.—( Hear, hear.) He might advert, indeed, to
another Bill, more immediately applicable to the Bill then
under consideration, than either of the two measures to
which he had already adverted—he meant the Bill passed
towards the close of the Session of 1833, for reforming
the whole of the Corporations of Scotland. By that Bill,
important interests, and an immense mass of commercial pro-
perty in the great towns—such as Edinburgh and Glasgow—
were very materially affected, yet no Counsel were heard; no
such motion as that of the Noble Viscount was made ; nor if
made, would it ever have been listened to. Upon these gene-
ral grounds, he submitted to their Lordships that there was
no pretence whatever for hearing_ Counsel in the present case.
—( Hear, hear.) There could be no pretence whatever for
adopting such a course, unless, indeed, it were their Lord-
ships' wish and intention to defeat the Bill by delay.__( Cries
of " No, no," and cheers.) If it were their Lordships' inten-
tion to defeat the Bill by delay, then they might hear Coun-
sel ; but if they had no such intention—if they meant to give
the measure a bona fide consideration—if they meant to give
it fair play—( Hear, hear)—if they meant to give it that calm
and considerate attention which its importance, and the anxiety
of the whole country with respect to it, demanded—they would
not pursue such a course as that which the Noble Viscount had
called upon them to adopt. " I respect (continued his Lord-
ship)—l respect your Lordships—l respect your authority—l
respect your dignity—l respect the position you occupy in re-
spect of the Constitution. Your dignity is well assured, and
your power is well settled ; but the power, and dignity, and
authority of no body of men, either in these or any other times,
was ever so settled and secured as to enable them with impu-
nity to trifle with popular opinion."—( Cheers.) He implored
their Lordships, therefore, not to listen to the motion made by
the Noble Viscount, but to go fairly, and without delay, into
the consideration of the Bill. The Noble Viscount had made
a great many observations with respect to the Reform Bill,
and to the diversion of the funds of charities to other pur-
poses than those to which they were originally intended.
The Noble Viscount said, that Sir Thomas White's cha-
rity was vested in the freemen of Coventry, and in jus-
tice could be extended to no others. But supposing
that the freemen of Coventry ought to be abolished in other
respects, did the Noble Viscount mean to say that they ought
to be kept up for the purpose of enjoying Sir Thomas White's
charity.—(Laughter and cheers.) Surely their Lordships
would not say that to fulfil the will of a donor they were
bound to maintain that which was acknowledged or found to
be an abuse.—( Hear, hear.) If their Lordships were to ac-
cede to the Noble Lord's proposition, it would be impossible
to tell to what an extent it might be carried; because if it
were once admitted that one corporation had a right to be
heard, all would claim to be heard, and thus it would be ren-
dered impossible to carry the Bill through during the present
session.—( Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON agreed with the Noble
Lord who had just spoken, that nothing would be more un-
becoming or unworthy of that House than to trifle with the
property or privileges of any class of the community, or to
attempt, by vexatious delay, to defeat any measure that might
be submitted to their consideration. But never was there an
occasion on which any such an imputation as that thrown out by
the Noble Lord was more unfounded, or more undeserved : for
if ever there was a question on which any body of men seemed
disposed to move with all the celerity that circumstances would
admit of, it was the question then under their Lordship's con-
sideration...--( Hear.) In point of fact, the evidence upon
which they bad to proceed in legislating upon the subject had
only for a few days (at least the greater part of it) been upon
their Lordships' table, and he would venture to say that not
one in ten of their Lordships had perused more than a very
small portion of that which had been produced. He had not
the smallest desire to delay the second reading of the Bill or
any of the future proceedings upon the subject. Nay, if the
Noble Lord had not made such a charge upon that side of the
House, he (the Duke of Wellington) was prepared to come
forward with a proposition with respect to the hearing of
counsel, which, in his opinion, would have precluded the possi-
bility of any delay, whilst at the same time full justice would
be done to all parties. The Noble Lord (Melbourne) began
by stating that this was a measure of general policy, and not a
measure embodying separate and distinct charges against in-
dividual boroughs. He (the Duke of Wellington) admitted
it was a measure of general policy, but it was a measure of
general policy founded upon the reports laid upon their Lord-
ships' table, and of the truth of which the parties, in many
instances, complained—(Cheers), and desired that their
Lordships would be pleased to hear their complaints--(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord had been pleased to compare this
transaction with another transaction in respect of the 40s.
freeholders of Ireland. The Noble Lord forgot that the offer
had been made for the disfranchisement of the 40s. freehold-
ers, on certain conditions, not less than two or three years be-
fore the measure by which they were ,actually disfranchised
was carried. Neither did the Noble Lord state that it was
admitted, in the discussions in that House upon the report, that
the 40s. freeholders were useless, nay injurious, as members of
the electoral body. That being the case, it was natural
enough that they should not be heard by Counsel. With
respect to the Reform Bill, it was perfectly true that many
persons had been injured in their property, in consequence of
the adoption of that Bill ; and it was also true that many, very
many interests had been entirely set aside by it ; and although
counsel were not heard :upon that Bill, any more than on
the case of the Irish 40s. freeholders, and the Scotch Corpo-
rations Bill, the Noble Lord (Melbourne) should not forget
that there were other measures, having as strict an affinity to the
present Bill as any he had mentioned, upon which counsel were
heard. For instance, in the case of the Bill for the abolition of
heritable jurisdictions in Scotland, counsel were heard on the
second reading, and on the question for going into committee.
In the present instance he (the Duke of Wellington) was
prepared to offer to the Noble Lord (Melbourne), in order to
create no delay, supposing the House to agree to the second
reading, that Counsel should be heard on the question for go-
ing into Committee; and he (the Duke of Wellington) was
perfectly ready to proceed with the discussion the very day
after the second reading should be disposed of. He must say,
therefore, that the charge which had been made 'against any
body of persons in that House having an intention to defeat
the measure by delay, was unjust and uncalled for; and he
must go further, and say that it was not quite founded upon
the fact.--( Hear.) As to going into Committee on the Bill,
it could not be expected that any one would prepared to do
so, for some few days to come. To hear Counsel, therefore,
previous to going into Committee would, in fact, be to create
no delay whatever.

Lord- BROUGHAM was sure no person felt more strongly
than he did the impropriety of any such charge against that
House as that to which the Noble Duke had alluded; but if
he rightly heard his Noble Friend (Melbourne), he rather
thought that his Noble Friend particularly endeavoured, fruit-
lessly, as it would seem, to guard himself against the very
charge which the Noble Duke had brought against him, be-
cause he expressly said that he would impute no such desire to
their Lordships as that of defeating the measure by delay, but
that he wished to warn their Lordships not by any act of theirs
to induce people out of doors to suppose that they were ac-
tufted by such a desire. But, pass►ng from that point, he
begged for a moment to call their Lordships' attention to what
the result would be, if such a motion as that of the Noble
Lord opposite ( Strangford) were carried. If it should sue-
coed, every Corporation in the kingdom would set up its right