The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-05 00:00:00

THE NEW REFORM BILL FOR SCOTLAND

AND IRELAND.
Mr. E. ELLICE asked the Lord Advocate whether, by
the new Reform Bill for Scotland, it was intended to confer
on burghs and counties a similar franchise to that provided
for in the second, third, and fourth sections of the first
clause of the English Reform Bill now before the house.
In the first clause, relative to the franchise, in the bill in-
troduced by the Government, an alteration was proposed
which, though not affecting England to any great
extent, would very seriously affect Scotland. He alluded to
the lowering of the franchise from £lO to £5, and in dealing
with Scotland, it should be remembered that the former was
the ordinary amount of long tenure in that country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he proposed to bring forward the Scotch bill as soon after
the English Reform Bill as the pressure of business would
permit—he expected before Easter. He thought it would be
inconvenient to make any statement at present. He took
that 'opportunity of informing the house that he would take
an early opportunity of making a statement with reference
to the Reform Bill for Ireland.
In reply to Mr. PALK,
Mr. BRIGHT said, with regard to his measure, he
thought it would be better for the house to attend to one at
a time. (Laughter.) He would give full notice before in-
troducinc, his bill.
FORTESCUE considered that someerienepetriemtantittohane.
Mr. C 7
of the intention of the Governmentnt wamitehndretfhere
n
nature of the bill to be introduced
tion of the people of Ireland, should have been made before
the present time.
After some observations fromLordlr.
J. Russell,
ealzd Mr. J. D.
Fitzgerald, Mr. Bowyer, and
e thathe
The CHANCELLOR of the
tEayir saidwQaaUdEeaßirabl
wished the house to understand that
the principle of the bill which had been
esuchintroducedas thatshould
be affirmed before any statement was made
alluded to, as the principle did not apply solely to England.
He would, therefore, defer making any statement, until
subsequent to the second reading of the bill.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that there was an item in
the army estimates of £1,050,000 for a debt incurred in
1857, relative to which no information was given in the
estimates. He hoped, therefore, that the gallant Secretary
of War would give an explanation in reference to so
large an. item. _ _ _

General PEEL said he would make such explanation as
was required.

DANUBIAN PRINCIPALITIES,

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply on
the Army Estimates,
fir. STAPLETOIst called the attention of the house to
the double election in the Danubian Provinces. A question
arose at the conference which preceded the Treaty of Paris
as to whether those provinces should continue separate or
be united into ono homogeneous State. The French Envoy
proposed the union, and was supported in that opinion by
Lord Clarendon. On the other hand, the Turkish Envoy,
supported by the Austrian, opposed the union. The Divans
which had been summoned in the Principalities declared in
favour of union, and it was supposed by the people that
their wishes would be gratified by the Powers who had
taken them under their protection. But all at once a change
came over the policy of the English Government, and the
line of conduct which had been followed by Lord Clarendon
at Paris had been departed from. A motion was made in
the House of Commons on the subject by the right hon.
member for Oxford University, which was resisted by the
Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, on the ground
that the people of the Principalities did not wish for union,
except under the headship of a foreign Prince. The noble
lord the member for Tiverton took the same view, but sub-
sequent events proved that they were in the wrong. The
conferences at Paris were soon afterwards reopened,
and articles were agreed to for the future regulation of
the government of the Principalities. The hon. gen-
tleman after referring in detail to the articles of

the convention then concluded, said he should be glad to
hear what part the Envoy of England had taken in those
conferences. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told the
house that there was complete identity between the views of
France and England on this subject; but the Emperor in
his late speech spoke of the convention in the most condem-
natory terms. It was clear that the Government knew as
little of the real views of France as they did of the wishes
of the Principalities, for the election of one Hospodar for
the two had given the greatest satisfaction to the people of
both. He hoped to hear from the Under-Secretary some
intimation of the policy which the Government intended to
pursue under these circumstances.
Mr. FITZGERALD was quite sure that the house and
the hon. gentleman himself must feel that it was impossible
for him, on the part of the Government, to enter mto a
lengthened consideration of this very important question.
(Hear, hear.) It was his duty last year to state the views
which her Majesty's Government entertained with refer-
ence to the anion of the Principalities. Since that time a
Conference of the European Powers assembled at Paris, and
day after day and week after week the attention of the most
able diplomatists in Europe was directed to this question,
and their labours resulted in what must be deemed a solemn
act on the part of the European Powers. The hon. gentle-
man had stated that in his opinion the election of Couza as
Hospodar of both the Principalities was not contrary to
the letter or the spirit of the convention signed by the Con-
ference of Paris. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) would not venture
to offer any opinion on that subject, but this at least he
would say, that such an election as that was not contem-
plated by. those who formed the Conference at Paris.
Neither would he venture to enter into the question raised
by the hon. gentleman as to the intentions with which this
election had been carried out in the Principalities, or its
probable results. But this at least was clear, that the
Power which was most seriously interested in the election
—namely, Turkey—thought that it was contrary both to
the letter and the spirit of the convention, and had invited
those who with her were parties to the Conference at Paris
to meet in Paris and consider the very serious state of
affairs at present existing in the Principalities. The Eu-
ropean Powers had accordingly agreed to meet in Paris to
consider what best was to be done. The hon. gentle-
man said that before the Conference met her Majesty's Go-
vernment ought to state what were the views entertained
by them on the subject, and what was the course they in-
tended to adopt ; but he (Mr. Fitzgerald) thought the house
would admit that her Majesty's Government would be
wanting in respect to those European Powers that had been
invited to assemble at Paris to consider what was best to be
done under the difficult state of circumstances that had
arisen if they were publicly, prematurely, and indiscreetly
to state what were their views upon the subject. (Hear.)
He thought, therefore, that, having thus shortly stated the
grounds on which he asked the house not to enter into a
consideration of this very important question, he should
best fulfil his duty by declining to say anything more upon
it.

Mr. ROEBUCK said the inhabitants of the Principali-
ties were endeavouring to become a people, and it would be
no indiscretion on the part of the House of Commons to
say they hoped the efforts of the Moldavians and Walla-
chians to become a nation, and to gain their independence,
would be successful. For his own part, he participated
very much in their wishes, and hoped that, far from being
the (slaves of the diplomacy of Europe, they would retain
their own dignity and work out unaided their own inde-
pendence.
NAVAL FORCE ON THE AUSTRALIAN COAST.
Lord A. CHURCHILL then rose to call the attention of
the Government to the inadequate protection at present
afforded to the Australian and New Zealand colonies through
the smallness of the naval force stationed there. He said
that many gentlemen connected with the Australian colo-
nies had been disappointed by the omission of the First
Lord of the Admiralty, in his speech on the navy estimates,
to promise that the naval force in Australia should be in-
creased. The present force consisted of three or four small
vessels, which were a detachment from the forces at the
Indian and Chinese stations. The greatest difficulty was
therefore experienced in communicating with the admiral.
During the late war the senior officer at the Australian
station expressed his surprise in the strongest possible
terms that colonies so important as the Australian should
be protected by so miserable a force. The French had
established a naval station in New Caledonia, and
were endeavouring in every way to increase their in-
fluence in the Pacific Ocean. They had now three islands
there, one of which—viz., New Caledonia—was only 900
miles from Sydney. It was a beautiful island, surrounded
by coral reefs, and had an excellent harbour. It was 400
miles in extent, and was protected by five French vessels of
war ; but its trade by no means required so large a force.
'For what object, then, were those vessels stationed there?
The inhabitants were very savage, and the naminal reason
why the French vessels were maintained was to keep the
savages in subjection. But that was not the real reason.
The real object was that,. in case of any hostilities with
France New Caledonia might be made the point from which
the Australian colonies could be assailed this could be
done with the greatest possible facility. Only a few years
ago an American frigate worked her way in the night up
the bay to the city of Sydney, and when the people woke in
the morning they found themselves under her guns, with
nothing to prevent her from laying the city in ashes,.or
putting it under contribution. The question arose how far
it was the duty of the mother country to protect the coun-
' try by a naval force, and how far the colonies ought to pro-
tect themselves. He thought the mother country ought to
afford facilities to the colonies to form a separate naval force
if they chose, and to give them sufficient protection till they
had done so. He believed the Australian colonies were
ready to form a naval militia for their own defence. One
proposition made to the Home Government was that it
should send them some of the old ships the First Lord of
the Admiralty stated were not fit to be converted into
screw steamers. They might go out jury-rigged, carrying
emigrants to defray the expense. They could take out
heavy ordnance in their holds. When they arrived one
might be stationed at Sydney, one at Melbourne, one at
Adelaide, and one at Hobart Town. They would form a
naval militia. In the event of tiny hostilities they might 'be
towed out by a colonial steamer and placed broadside on to
the enemy. Such a naval force would give confidence to the
colonies ; and the fact of their being there might prevent
any attack. The colonies felt also that they were in a posi-
tion to demand a separate naval station; this was recom-
mended by Lord Auckland, but never carried out. He could
not see why the Admiral in command on the west coast of
South America should not have his station extended to
Australia ; it already extended to within a few hundred
miles of New Zealand. These questions excited great in-

terest in the Australian colonie;; and he would -ask the
right hon. baronet whether the Government contemplated
forming a separate naval establishment for the better de-

fence of their Australian possessions.
Sir C. NAPIER, according to notice, moved that, as the
First Lord of the Admiralty had stated that the coastguard
ships are comparatively useless, the time had arrived when
they ought to be replaced by efficient ships ; and, also, in-
quired when it was the intention of the Government to put
in force the recommendations of the commission for manning
the navy. He said the nine blockships, described by the
right hon. baronet as comparatively useless, and now sta-
tioned at different ports on the coastguard service, were
considered by merchant seamen as a disgrace to the coun-
try ; they ought to be removed and their places supplied by
efficient ships ; this could be done with great ease, and why
it was not done was very extraordinary. It was to be hoped
that the First Lord of the Admiralty would explain to the
house why he persisted in employing the blockships when
he had himself declared them to be comparatively useless.
All Europe was armed as if it were on the brink of a great
war; and how, therefore, a rich country like this should be
left in so imperfect a state of defence he could not, for the
life of him, understand. The first reserve ought to be im-
mediately commissioned and manned. The commissioners
on the manning of the navy had been appointed eight or
nine months ago, and their recommendations ought to be•
carried into immediate execution. The Admiralty them-
selves might long ago have carried out most of those recom-
mendations. The First Lord was the Minister responsible
for the proper defence of the country, and his complaint
against him was that he did not go fast enough to meet the
exigencies of the crisis. The hon. and gallant admiral
pointed out the mode in which he thought the useless coast-
guard ships might easily be replaced by efficient vessels,
and concluded by making his motion in the terms above
stated.
Mr. YOUNG could confirm the statements made by the
noble lord who had called attention to the defenceless state
of the Australian coasts. The Australian colonies were as
loyal and contented as any part of the British empire, their
only grievance being the want of naval iirotection for their
extensive seaboard. When rumours of hostilities were rife
the colonists were naturally anxious about their safety ; and
at the commencement of the Russian war great consterna-
tion was felt on the same score. The town of Sydney was ,
very exposed to attack ; and any French or American sailor '
who had once been to Sydney harbour could easily take a
ship up there during the night.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I hope my noble friend will not
think that'l was guilty of any discourtesy in not at once re-
plying to his remarks ; because the gallant admiral had

given notice of a motion with reference to the blockships,
and if I had not waited for his statement, the forms of the
house would have prevented my replying to him. I entirely
agree with my noble friend, that whether it be with respect
to naval'force or any other matter, the Australian colonies
have the fullest right to every friendly consideration at the
hands of the Government ; but I am not equally disposed to
admit the truth of the words used by him in his notice as to
the " entirely inadequate naval protection" of those colonies.
At all events, I am in a position to say that, be their de-
fence adequate or inadequate, it is much more effective than
it was when I succeeded to the Admiralty. At that time
the Australian colonies were defended by one vessel, and I
believe by one vessel only— I am sure by not more than two.
The Sappho brig was under orders to proceed from the Cape
of Good Hope to strengthen that squadron, but unhappily she
Was lost, and I am afraid that all hands perished with her.
Since that time the Aurelia sloop of war has gone to Austra-

lie from the Kooria Mooria Islands ; and in the course of the
last summer I ordered two other sloops of war to proceed from
the China station to strengthen the Australian squadron.
The result is that at this time that squadron consists of four
letter which I received
dwhvicehry rare screw steamers ; and in a
the °ram d officer of that
men-of-war,ecaetnatitl.oyn,frolmwCasapataasiurn
eLdautf:aet,
in his opinion that squadron was amply sufficient for any
necessity which could arise withinb the colonies. I hope
t will
another
station
ta satisfactorylat te r
—t o
matter—viz.,
zi y. , noble
friend.tliat s o farT hni
alyqsuteaatteimene
touchesstatement
at
thet
Admiralty
in the whe-
ther we are prepared to erect a naval
Austra-
lian colonies. Since I have bee,
fotfySlytodnhaevyebeen in commimication. with the Governaldinamenirtal
propose island in that
vessels in those
with a view to obtaining possessionanodf
we
" Garden Island,"
harbour called
ap-
propriate that island, at least, to the reception . stores for
the benefit and assi4ance of her Majesty's
seas. That arrangement is at present in its infancy. I men.
lion it to show my noble friend that we are not unmindful
of the necessity of having some naval establishment in
those seas, and I hope that it will soon 'be so far matured
as to meet all the requirements of our fleet. My noble friend
mentioned a fact of which I was not aware--that it was the
intention of Lord Auckland to make the Australian station
a separate command. It is my intention to carry out a
similar arrangement. The Board of Admiralty have come
to the determination that the Australian colonies ought not
to be nominally attached to the India and China station,
and we therefore propose to make it an independent com-
mand. (Hear, hear.) I will now turn to what fell from the
gallant admiral opposite with respect to the blockships•

He complained that I, having stated that these are very
useless vessels, still keep them round the coast as coast-
guard ships. I think the gallant admiral rather overstates
what fell from me with regard to the comparative inutility
of these blockships. What I stated was, that as line-of-