The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-01 00:00:00

°entry if be did not vote against that resolution, or against
a!V other which he believed would dismember the British em-
re,:(Loud cheers.) Though the Noble Lord in the speech
had made had not followed out its ultimate effect and in-
tention, yet the Hon. Member for St. Alban's ann the Hon.
,
',earned Member' for Tipperary had been more explicit,
thus—
Ireland had tar should taken care not to leave the House in!the dark. The
ghouln before the' House appeared to him to stand
ld not the funds of the Protestant Church in
liee. o
be distributed, and handed over to the Catholic Priest-
aio• Thatsuch was the question he collected from the speeches
e Ron. Members he had named. The Hon. Member for St.
IT'S certainly did state something very like that proposition.
Meep,ed
Orentak down his words as well as those of the Noble
from leer Northumberland. To such expressions,. coming
8716.1-lon. Members, he put it to the House whether the
md not be this—" Are you or are you not, British
hav4Ters of the House of Commons, to take a step, not pveirl
erePnstmunediate in operation, but to take a step whiclhiss
ed
Ctureori, lead to the utter abolition of the Established
• The Catholics say, " You force your religion upon
beela
th ea. s chstnu as you compel us\to pay tithes. This system is
thoer u e of all the evils in Ireland.—(Cheers.) We, as Ca-
testles' can never be reconciled to the existence of the Pro-
eit het Established Church." Now when he took these de-
be rations
raftits in connection with what fallen from the Noble Mem-
ftrthumberland in reference to Ecclesiastical Esta-
s 'netts and to the termination of the religious struggle in
otland b
treiao
.• e inferred that it was intended to put in practice_ in
the principles which had regulated the Scotch Este-
-Batiseeedn.L,_ So he understood the Noble Lord. He was quite
th that when the debates of that House went forth to
tempte of England, the people would and ought to reject
objeob•litic and pernicious a doctrine. To pass the ultimate
ct ee
which the resolution, and to come to the very terms in
,tt Was couched, what did it call upon them to do
sas" m this stage of the business, to resolve that there
the pa
•,urPlus of Church property over the wants of
sole. retestant people, and to pledge themselves as to its
Nopriation. Now he was told that there was no surplus.
ttratedliTt• Member for Liverpool had satisfactorily demon-
House it; but, supposing there was a surplus, ought the
had of Commons to adopt this resolution unless they
Pest,everY particular before them as to the amount of the pro-
It'air:and the proportion between Catholics and Protestants ?
oh th't Possible for the House to come to a specific resolution
laid se cluestion of appropriation until every information was
lonuefore them ? The Noble Lord and his party, having so
had '''Stlplained of the grievances which the Irish people
Chsreell'er suffered' or complained. o.f suffering from the Irish
it, let i, at length issued a Commission of Inquiry, and issued.
6ple it be recollected, to assert the decision of the very prin-
Nlis• new embodied in his own resolutions.—(Cheers from the
Phhci side• ) The Noble Lord, when pressed on the very
kilo, now at issue before the House, said that he. would not
estea,' discussion on the principle without an inquiry intosthhee
otv'hand application of Church property. But whatdoe
datio 'nes he adhere to his own principle of inquiry as the four:-
eel A.! of all legislative enactments? Or does he not rather, in
aeon
Part °n „,..?f all his former declarations, and the. pledges of his
t'ots.) "Ink from his own doctrines and falsify his own asser-
tesd--(Cheers from the Ministerial side.) When the Noble
eotee,w,:eS in power, he required a Commission to justify any
port he of his to the popular party. It was upon their re-
Nog iiwas to act. If that Commission was good for any
'holed be it was good now and the result of its inquiries
Poli,„°e laid before the House. -It was not his (Sir W .
taia"l's) business, nor was it his wish, to prove inconsistency
Natia.t,the Noble Lord, for the Noble Lord's own acts clearly
to o:nett that against him.—(Laughter.) But he wished
ad f.-„W the new and unnatural alliance that the Noble Lord
Fuelled With a man whose declared and open principle of
of aa-Ooduct was unmitigated hostility to the very existence
lordb,Astablished Church, the . man against whom the Noble
trie, wuj_velled the whole artillery•of his denunciatory rhe-
44an'tn he had in all possible ways reviled—Mr.
~e",•---(Loud cheers.) When the Noble Lord brought
the-tnese resolutions he was strong in the confidence
"id tlah'use, and feeling so conscious of his power,
the
what he seemed anxious to shrink from now. !e
~hlel,filled
-°" inquiry, in order, by its result, to •justify him in
forward a' measure for the general good. Well, that
1°: isf7,','°r: having been issued, and not having reported,
'44413'4%T Lord now, in calling on the House to legislate,
(Cho e false to his own principles, and unfair to the House.
41; Neil? The cry of the Noble Lord was " Don't hamper
dieot • .714 us to carry our measures up to their full develop-
best tilen't restrict us before we have had time to concoct and
r),llost aent• We have issued a Commission ; wait for the
41 the Commission before you decide." So has the
tfre4 Lord stated ; and why not wait for. the Commission
!,he D'r"--( Cheers. ) When Gentlemen talked of taking away
"14 t°PertY of the Catholics to support a Protestant Ch.urch
t,hat tle,Y contemplate the possibility, nay, the probability,
l'e red: increase of rents would more than counterbalance
eh the of tithes ?—( Hear, hear.) The reduction or
rage of abolition abOlition of tithes would not operate to the advan-
titet Idle tenant. But the existence of the Church as an
ZerllBl"relent seemed to have been lost sight of, its utility
Thsrs:„-d• and the great subsidiaries it brought to the main-
'fa 6,` of the throne and all other institutions neglected.
I,i?hlf,tcb be good for anything it should be upheld ; and
i'ale,-,eY one say that the existence of the present. Este-
-4410`,et was useless ? He ( Sir W. Follet) dissented
thttti 'e words and spirit of the resolutions, because he thought
'hateasht.lbaersive of that principle on which our most venerated
!totter 1? were founded. No one had yet maintained, on any
,he probability or truth, that Church property and pri-
t"i, e 14" Y was to be held or maintained on different tenures.
iilaish„ was, that the property of the Church was basedson
the sunder
rinciple as private property. Church property was
bounkcertain trusts and tor certain uses, these uses being
Port and advancement of the general interest. If any
-",„e°11ld be shown why the House ought to interfere with
hers,,rgertY of the Church, and why that interference would
• 4eial to thepublic interest, then indeed there would.
e„-4'e for interference. But until that principle of the ex-
the NZleof, interference were established (and he would gore
4f brew Lord on either horn of the dilemma, of allowing
Qty of instituting the Commission, or when instituted,
• 'leg' it to report before a motion was made) there could
said tNuihr determination entered into. The Noble Lord
aa'thl eetargat the property of the Church was originally Catholic,
oc boned to the Protestants. Now that argument could
•th applied to other kinds of propety, as to the property
h Irish Ch
,4 urch ? If the argument were good against the
Nlof , urch it wag good against the English, for the same
pr Z Ptir!ciple of conduct was the foundation of transfer
se dee,. rtY hi the one case as in the other. The doctrine
; it was a false one, it had no foundation in our
"hk•
:ental laws, and was not recognised by the practice or
df our institutions. He ( Sir W. Follett) did not
give offence, but to state the broad ground of his oh-
:4 elaa The Reformation did not give a new property to
}-"hps of the people, but merely transferred property
sitilotiritY2° another—it only. made property change hands,
'held `itt all interfering with the fixed rights of property._
4,11,4 k ,t..,ee House, then, sanction the adoption of a principle
ll the -,,,173$ of resolutions only emanating from this principle,
lkLter extinction of the Protestant Church in Ireland ?
lei.„ved the House would not adopt so monstrous and so
tes `,:,es,a course. If it did, then away with all the fixed
!are3. welch the right of property was based ; away with
Le PiZitY on which- every man held his fortune. Was not
bChledrertY of the Church held sacred, or at least was it not
ut !o by a great majority of the people of England ?
fief of "It not wild to speak legally or logically on the sub-
h these resolutions? It was clearly from party and
41:Poses the question was brought forward. The ques-
CNN,- oot brought on from a respect for principle, but to
)1,4e in 3 the Government. Was it possible that it could
re -1 other effect ? Suppose the House were now to pass
would not that resolution necessarily interfere
:14,,t4r4,th
"te Bill' proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet for the
tgett t;ati°4 of tithes? Would it have any other practical
,;!et4Lot to delay that relief for which the Hon. and Learned
tfhe it for Dublin told them the Irish people were panting?
the
and Le ed Gentleman who spoke last had said
ih se k.e resolution was tantamount to a want of confidence in
th I;lt's Government; and he supposed that it might end
ttoe'r resignation. of office. Now, let him suppose for a
toe
that
h "eoR rty it would have that effect, and that the
era were to go out upon such a resolution as that
h''‘eas"'thore the House-1( Hear, hear, hear)—he was perfectly
h Wail at he was holding office under the Government : but
=adepthe representative in that House of a great and inde-
kepi he was quite sure that the opinions he had
leolttsewere those of the great majority of his consti-
) It was true that he had no public life to
titilaeht ktsuPoene,rsand that he. could not ask any Hon. Members
tilkh "use to compare his past conduct with the support he
Oh: 4441 g to the existing Government, but he might per-
ched ;Permitted to say, that the feeling he had always enter.-
Itia 'ince the Rorm Bill first passed into a law was, that it
4t 141114 zt‘vand d t o destroyed the old party distinctions in the
d that the names of Whigs and Tories had become
el*east "wrneaning sounds. He had always felt, and openly
➢ Ited the feeling, that while the Government of Lord
th. °lsla'," a firm and United Government—while it commanded.
tl",e4e-is„-1 in that House, and the affections of the consti-
e,ttsa ,It created while it was strong enough to resist the
'l'htry,...lve spirit that was aimed. at the institutions of the
roht,'ore.,,,everY well-wisher of his country, whatever party he
-otedmust be desirous to see that Government
lj~Chsti with ,
ie,.,10 office. But when, on the very question now under
4,;°,11. e. they had lost the co-operation both of the Right
tiCeivrnnet the Member for Cumberland ( Sir J. Graham),
ii,37--..ev,C3ble Lord the Member for Lancashire ( Lord Stan-
11.'Y efe 'n It was evident, from the course they_ pursued, that
whonlisting the party of the Hon. and Learned.Gen-
,Peeehsbad been denounced by them shortly before in the
f'llele.sCr°lll the throne—(Loud cheers)—he did com.e to t e
-ren, that it was no longer a Government which me-
:te °ught to possess, the confidence of the people.
NteribepPosi a new Government were to be formed, was it.not,
th eoneed d that it could not be comprised exclusively
6.4,,%rnetttbe ef
th part to which the Noble Lord the
ti 4 obt,.-r Devonshirersee belonyged ? Was it not conceded that
eWhi"cLovernment were.formed, they. must make the junc-
-0444, did not like to mention the names of Ho-
'ehtleth- 'Teinbers--had been alluded to by an Honourable
elt4,, it "„'n on a former night with respect to England? And
ht pfd equally clear that, with regard to Ireland, they
t).
and would look for support to that party of which the
altilee„7,l-searned Member for Dublin was in that House the
:ce(lls[led leader? He asked the House, and above all he
eht p`ge English representatives, whether such a Govern-
hr.!-"Id for one month, or for one hour, possess the confi-
of the nation? Although he did not believe that a Go-
di thus formed, and coming into power upon the basis
fe_n, k resolution, could exist for any length of time ; yet he
thoseE ••1 that the mere accession to power of persons holding
,1) srildrrieiPles woulire to the movement party in this con-
"thte b.in Ireland a force and impetus which no power in the.
"%id be able afterwards successfully to resist. For this