The Sun.
London, England, 1832-05-11 00:00:00

THE LONDON GAZETTE

THIS EVENING.

WHITEHALL, MAI- W.
The King has been pleased to direct letters patent to be
passed under the Great Seal, granting the dignity of Baron of
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, unto the fol-
lowing persons and the heirs male of their bodies lawfully be-
gotten, viz.
Lord Francis Godolphin Osborne, by the name, stile, and title
of Baron Godolphin, of Farnham Royal, in the county of Berks ;
Lucius Viscount Falkland, by the name, stile, and title of
Baron Hunsdon, of Scutterskelfe, in the county of York ; and
Charles Dundas, Esq., by the name, stile, and title of Baron
Amesbury, of Kintbury, Amesbury, and Barton-court, in the
county of Berks, and of Aston-hall, in the county of Flint.

DECLATATION OF INSOLVENCY.
GEORGE WHEELER, Clapham, livery-stable-keeper.
BANKRUPTS.
WILLIAM HENRY HALSEY, Bermondsey-street, South.
wark, tea-dealer.
JOHN GROUTAGE, Strand, fishmonger.
JAMES KENTON, Poplar, linen-draper.
JOHN MARSDEN STEWARD, Cornhill, mater-mariner.
WILLIAM WILMINGTON, jun. Milborne Port, glove-
manufacturer.
THOMAS JACKSON, Old George-street, Southwark, fruit
salesman.
GEORGE DEAN, Maidstone, Kent, tallow-chandler.
JOHN WOOD, Horsham, Sussex, dealer in eaathenware.
EDMUND GOWLAND, Nelson-square, Christchurch, Sur-
rey, apothecary.
JOHN POWELL, Newent, Gloucestershire, grocer.
JAMES GEORGE WORTHY, Alphington, Devonshire,
corn-factor.
WILLIAM THIRST, JOSEPH HIRST, and WILLIAM
HIRST, jun., Gomersall, Yorkshire, merchants.
ALEXANDER SPEERS CORRICK, Bristol, timber-mer.
chant.
WILLI AM HENSON, Worcester, lace-manufacturer.
JOHN FORD, Bath, bookseller.
AUGUSTINE AGLIO, Smedley, near Manchester, dealer.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

110 USE OF COMMONS, BL 10.

Concluded fromour Second Edition of Last Night.

Daring the exeluvion of strangers the Sheriffs and Re-
membrancrr of the city of London appeared at the bar
with the petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Com-
mon Council, which was agreed to by the Common Coun-
cil to day. Its presentation was attended with a short
discussion, an outline of which we have been favoured
with. It is as follows :

Mr. Alderman WOOD, in moving that the petition
be read at length, said he was prevented by a domestic
calamity from being present at the meeting at which it
was got up. -
The petition was then read.

Mr. Alderman WAITHNIA.N concurred in the prayer
of the petition. He thought it a great mischief
to the country that the House of Lords bad so
conducted themselves as to interrupt the progress of
the Reform Bill.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BARING distinctly disclaimed the expression.
Mr. HUME understood Idol to impute it, but what
was the consequence? Did Earl Grey accept office with.
out condition? No. He accepted the seals of office pledged
to bring about Parliamentary Reform, as extensive as in
his view should satisfy the wishes of the country. Not a
Reform hastily concocted, not brought forward by one
who had not considered the question, but by one
who, in 1793, had laid on that table d sufficient
proof that he had duly considered the suhject. What-
ever explanation should take place in the last step of
their Ministerial career, it ought to be taken in connexion
with the condition on which office had been accepted.
It was impossible to suppose that the Ministers could
have acted otherwise than they have done, considering
the pledge that they had given to carry Reform.
He would not say where the blame rested, but certain he
was that a great difference of Opinion had taken place.
It was impossible, however, from the step that they hail
taken, that Ministers could be in the wrong.—(Laughter.
He would now come to the point why this House was
called on to take some decided measure at this important
period. It would be recollected that as soon as Earl
Grey and his colleagues had arranged a plan of Reform,
which they considered perfectly satisfactory, they
brought it forward on the Ist of March, 1831.
The House would recollect what expectations were abroad,
and what various opinions existed as to the extent of
Reform that was to he proposed, and at List the
balanced
de
tshecardhirseadlina
jge:tybcoitnsii:
Noble Lord op
schemepo s ite.
throughodhtohnwe
n ti
Russell)th'oa rltahomene ntrit'ie."l'Tee t.l—mosf March
(e
extent of the first Reform Bill,
b nicelyrou g hv,t.ashis
n must explain why the means
operation, Hear.)
who
end of its
d,Tvoel
I.en Housea
wana rdet carriedhdeoist,the
e dreste
of carrying it into effect were nut given at once to his
es y
Nia• t ' Ministers, and why his Majesty. referred the
J question to his people. Did ever Monarch receive a tribute

f greater rettpect and admiration than his Majesty had for
:he manly manner which be came down to support Lord
Grey? Finding the Bill placed in such a position, the King,
on the 22d of April, dissolved the Parliament, mid
'tated in his speech from the Throne, that be was in-
fueed to resort to that measure, in order to
tacertain the wishes of his people in a way the most
constitutionally to be obtained on the expediency
of making sech changes in the representation as the
circumstances required, and which were founded on
the best principles of the Constitution. Upon that a
general election took place, and what was the result ?
Did not the country respond to the call of the King ?
Did they not take the very Bill and all its parts into con-
sideration ? Did net the ultra-Reformers make their
objections ?—(Cheers.) And did not the more timid ex-
tend their views for the purpose of adopting a measure
suck as would satisfy the just expectations of reasonable
men ? The new Parliament then met, and his
Majesty, in his speech from the throne, said that hr
felt it his duty to recommend to their careful con-
sideration the question of Reform in the representation,
as it was a question getting daily of greater importance to
the people. A Bill was then introduced which, although
it varied in some trifling items, was substantially the
same as the former one.—(Loud cheers.) What,
had the Ministers a right to expect from that
speech, and from its having been known on many occa-
sions, that it was the desire of the King that the measure
should be carried ? What was the country to expect when
the Ministers had declared that they would hold office
no longer than they could see a fair prospect of carrying
the Bill, and when eventually that Bill was carried through
this House by a majority of 116, under the greatest opposi-
tion ever manifested on any occasion whatever ?—( Cheers. )
It was sent to the Upper House, where it was read a first
time ; it was also read a second time by a majority of nine
—hut under what circumstance? Seventy-six of the influen-
tial Members of the House entered a protest, declaring the
measure to be revolutionary—to be destructive of all that
was valuable in eta constitution—and as putting an ex-
tinguisher upon the Monarchy.—(Cheers.) He asked any
honourable man to judge of the conduct and of the
declarations of those individuals ?—(Cheers.) He would
advise the Hon. Member for Thetford, (Mr. Baring)
to go to some of the public meetings which he so
loudly denounced, instead of visiting certain political
clubs--(Great cheering.) He held those meetings
as superior to those political clubs. He asked the House
whether the observations of those individuals to whom he
had alluded were fit to be addressed to an assembly of grown
of persons?—(Laughter.) Ssch an attempt to assail the
conduct of his Majesty's Ministers was futile. As to the
professions of certain Noble Lords, who stated that they
would honestly go into Committee on the Bill, he must
state that he much doubted their honesty. Oae of the
conservatives, as they were called, had declared that he
would not disfranchise one of the rotten boroughs.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) Geod God ! only think of having
an Administration formed of such persons.--(Cheers.)
As to the architect of the structure, who, he understood,
was a Noble and Learned Lord—one of the Judges—it was
an insult to the people; he referred to the public principles
of that Noble Lord. If the Hon. Member fur Thetford
had forgotten what took place in this House, he had
not, for he well recollected the changes of opinion
that that Noble Lord, when he sat in that House,
had expressed. There was not an old woman in the
country who would trust his opinion for five minutes
--(Loud laughter and cheers)—and yet, that Noble
Personage was to be at the head of the Administration !
There was then a Noble Duke who brought in a little
bit of a Bill—(Laughter)—and who was the ornament of
the conservatives.—(Laughter.) If the Hun. Member for
Thetford thought that be was addressing himself in sober
morality—and cure he was that the Hon. Member's stand-
ing in that House and in the country entitled him
to much attention—but, however, if be thought
that he was addressing himself to any but the
Holy Alliance, he (Mr. Hume) could tell him that he
would draw by lot 15 weavers, 15 carpenters, and 15
shoemakers, who should convince him in a minute that
his argument was worth nothing.—(Cheers and laughter.)
He would show the Hon. Member that the confidence of
the people could not be placed in other hands than those
who by his Majesty's sanction supported a measure they
were intrusted with, and who had every desire to bring it to
a happy conclusion.—(Cheers.) He declared that be-
cause for eighteen months the feelings of the people had
been wound up to the highest degree, even the affairs of the
State had been partially stopped by the progress of the
1331, and all seemed anxious to give up a little, in order to
secure to themselves so great a boon. Was it too much to
say that the King had given the Ministers and
the country reason to expect that the measure would be
carried, and that the people had met with disap-
pointment—that their hopes had been destroyed by a
proceeding which threatened consequences of which no
man might live to see the result.—(Loud cheers.)
He could conceive very readily what had taken place—
what ill-advisers there had been—(Cheers)—what ad-
visers there had been behind the Throne.—(Loud and
tremendous cheering)—for there he believed they
were. Let those persons be unmasked.—(Loud cheers.)
If he had the power he would unmask them, and he
pomised that be would yet expose them to the public
view and the public gaze.—(Continued cheering.)
The Hon. Member for Thetford had alluded to the other
sex, talking of conduct towards her, with a view of cast-
ing a slur on her character. He (Mr. Hume), as a
Reformer, was hound to say that the Hon. Member was ill
advised in introduciog that subject ; but if individuals of
either sex, instead of directing their attention to other
matters, would interfere in questions of this kind, let them
take the consequence of their own conduct.—(Chers.) It
would be better if the Hon. Member had not mentioned
the subject, and he (Mr. Hume) hoped that what that
Honourable Member had stated, and what he now stated,
would be the last reference of the kind upon that subject.
—(Hear, hear.) He repeated what he had stated over
and over again in his warning to his Majesty's Ministers,
in keeping the enemies of Reform in office. He had
alluded to those persons by name, of whom Lord Hill was
one. There was one friend of hie (Mr. Hume's) who had
been removed because he would not support Reform.
He did not complain of that removal, but he complained
that the same measure of justice was not meted out to all
parties.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lle hail his fears all along
that there was some intrigue against Reform,
eehtaittnhppoeauttnlohnbe.lediil?irtsgo:wtiteiitiaildo,t,ileni:ra;
it came to the knowledge of the Ministers that the friends
of his Majesty were voting against Reform, they would be
unworthy of the confidence of the country if they had not
taken the steps that they did. He implored the House
to judge of the whole of their conduct from the first day
they entered office under a pledge to introduce Re-
form. They bad, as far as they could, redeemed their
pledge, and proved their intentions by their acts,
and he thought that no other step was left for
them but to resign. The question then was, what persons
were to succeed them? 'Was it the Right Hon. Baronet
below him (Sir R. Peel) ? That Right Hon. Baronet,
when he resigned his office, was asked if it was in conse•
quence of the vote on the Civil List ? He answered it
was not; but that as the question of Reform was to be
brought forward, he retired after the vote on the Civil
List, on account of the motion for Reform. The Duke of
Wellington had retired, because he stated that he was a
decided enemy to all Reform, and that the Con-
stitution of the House of Commons, as it existed
at present, was the best that could be devised.—
After applying every screw they could to the Right Hon.
Baronet for the space of 18 months, did he not still
declare that he would not bring forward a measure of Re-
form ; and as he was a man of his word, he (Mr. Hume)
was sure that he would not. He did not deny that some
measure of Reform might now he brought forward and
passed, but what they had to look to, and what the
people had to look to, were the means of carrying
this measure of Reform.—(Hear, hear, bear.).—
He did not care about alterations in the details,
but he must have Schedule A, and Schedule 13,
with all the other improvements and enfran-
chisetnents they hail agreed to. He was willing
to take scot and lot voting in addition, but he did
not ask for it, because his wish was to pass that
measure which had received the almost unanimous ap-
probation of the people at every meeting at which
they had assembled. The principal cause of his having been
disorderly was, the Hon. Gentleman below him having de-
clared, in the simplicity of his heart, that he dial not suppose
any one connected with a cl eaie borough, and nominated in
this House lay a Peer,. acted from any other motives than
from an interest in the welfare of the kingdom. The
Honourable Gentleman could never have looked into any
of the Red and
lie could never joaniva.manner in which gecrkepAaLaitield'isniutbsaii?rwoyrlititairictiehltsleynohtsfaiaoditndhiotm:
Members always voted together upon particular [nee.
BUIVS• Che
ways voted in support of the privileges anal interests of
the Crown, but could he say that they never voted in sup.
waspor of
surprisedtl ae
thaen
id, 0 inn.teLese
itisibtorf,
rtehiemepdeo
boroughs as harmless ingredients in the constitution
Why he had himself heard it stated in another place thaC
many members of that other place had risen to their seat.
there through the filth and ordure of rotten boroughs.
When this was the case, how could these people be talked
of as high-minded and chivalrous for laughing publie
opinion to scorn ? If it were true that a large portiue
of the House of Peers bad risen front the rnass of the pea.

pie, through the means of the rotten boroughs, it was
natural that they should wish to preserve the source from
which they sprung, in order that their House might con-
tinue to be replenished front it. But nut only were the
means by which those personages attained to their seats
filthy, but di graceful, ter they had attained to
them by tracking in the interests of the pe,.-
ple, by being slaves to different Ministers.—(Hear,
hear, and loud cries of No, no.) Members disapproved
of what he said, but at: the 151 persons to whom he alluded
had spoken in a manner derogative to the people, he bad
a right to expose them in their proper colours.--(Cheers.)
The language used by some ef them was ill-becoming the
situation they held, as compared with that of the represen-
tation of the people. Such being one of the visible
effects then of the rotten borough system, it was requir-
ing too much of their credulity, to induce him to believe
that rotten boroughs had never influenced that House.
But it was said, as an argument against the Reformers, that
they had the Universities against them. But by whom
were the Members returned? Not by the laity who
were members of the University, and who were all in fa-
vour of Reform, but by the clergy ; and when they
saw what was taking place in the other House,
amongst the dignitaries of the Church, whose conduct was
perhaps natural, looking up as they did to the large in-
comes they might obtain by preferments, but looking
to that conduct, was it surprising that the inferior
clergy should also consult self-interest ? He had,
however, no hesitation in declaring, that the large
majority of the property of this country was decidedly in
favour of the Bill. If all who drew money from the
public purse, the reduction of whose numbers was one
of the objects of the Bill, were deducted, he was sure that
the number of Anti-Reformers would be found small indeed,
The Hon. Member for Thetford spoke with contempt of
the citizens of London, because of the petition they had
presented that evening, and of its being much better for
them to mind their own business.—(Cries of No, no.)
The Hon. Member certainly said it was a foolish pe-
tition, and wished the House to pay no respect to it.
He however told the House that it would not do its duty
if they did not use the constitutional power they pos-
sessed of controlling the public expenditure. If they
saw that the Ministers appointed to manage their
affairs were incapable, from their past conduct
and practices, of carrying the Reform Bill to
a fortunate issue, what ought to be their con-
duct. Ought it not to he to appoint Parliamentary Com-
missioners to take charge of the public purse ?—(Cheers.)
He was fully prepared to go that length, and he was sure
the people would back him—(A laugh)—by every means
it was possible for them to back one of their representatives
in this House. Hon. Members might laugh, but they were
like an ignorant man on the edge of a volcano, who
laughed because he did not know the situation in which
he stood. He said, then, that they were bound to counsel
his Majesty in the present excited state of the country ;
and, if their counsel was not taken, they were
hound to exert that control over the public expenditure
which they legitimately might. He said, the control they
might legitimately exercise ; for, in looking to the history
of that House, he found they hail always claimed to them-
selves the right of having grievances redressed before
money was advanced.—( Loud cheers.) The Hon. Mem •
her below him seemed to think it a kind of heresy to
talk of refusing to vote money to Ministers, but in the pre-
sent suffering state of the country, they would not do what
the people expected of them, if they did not go that length,
and certainly they would neglect their duty. He thought
Ministers were right in not trying for another
twelvemonth what could be done with a mongrel
set, as be had shown the conservative Peers to
be. It was not upon a matter of form, but .a matter of
essence that Ministers resigned, fur the very first proposal
made to them in that House was totally to disfran-
chise all boroughs with a population below two
thousand, and partially all which had a population
below 4,000. The Noble Lord opposite did nut propose
to go backwards, like a Noble Peer in another place, by
first enfranchising some large towns, for the purpose of
seeing how little disfranchisement was wanting. He
thought Ministers perfectly right in asking his Majesty to
have such confidence in them as to be permitted to create
as many Peers as were necessary. Less than 60 would
not have doge—(Cheers)—and he would not object to
100. But he was certain that if a carte blanche bad been
given, it would not bare been found necessary to
create 10 Peers, and the cause of so bold a game being
played in the other House was that some little bird bad
whispered that the King would not do what was reqUired
of him. Seeing that such was the state of things, he
thought Ministers perfectly justified in resigning, and
trusted that the country and tie House would uphold them.
Mr. BARING, in explanation, denied having said more
of the London petition than that it was unwise and foolish,
or that he had intended to cast any reflection upon a cer-
tain exalted body.
Mr. HUME said that the Hon. Member had as-
serted that the petition of the citizens of London was a
foolish petition, and onght to ineapacitate them from pe-
titioning. He was a citizen of London himself, and felt
that that expression was a great insult.
Lord MORPETH hoped to be allowed to add a few
words to what had already been said as to the contem-
plated retirement of the Ministry, because a relation of
though not immediately connected with the Govern-
went, still held a place in the Cabinet. He had no doubt but
that the advice tendered by the Government to his Majesty
was a large, or at least an adequate creation of Peers, in
order to secure the success of the Reform Bill. He was
justified i
py.
_ the(L.
ucircumstances
and one who would say it was a very violent step, and
one that would form a bad precedent, and one which could
continued in w
cheering. h
coonulyntrbe ;
was jfieid b
a ed
He entirely concurred in the address which had been
proposed by his Noble Friend. He regretted the cause
on many accounts ; be regretted it because it was tea
iih
the
)
suddenly placed before them—he regretted it on account
of his majewty—he regretted that it put in jeopardy the
peace and comfort of his reign.—(Loud cheers.)--
He regretted it on account of the removal of
the Government, which, unless that House stopped,
it would soon be removed from the helm of affairs. They
had nobly done their duty by the Reform Bill ; by it
they ought to stand or fall, but their conduct on it had
been most praiseworthy.—(Cheers.) Upon other
grounds also they deserved the praise of that House.
(Hear, hear.) They had secured to their country
and they had secured to Europe during the
most troublous times, the great blessing of
carried off their character and consistency with honour—
(Hear, hear)—if they yet were permitted to retire, and
they would carry along with them the plaudits anal
blessings of the whole nation.—(Hear, hear, and
chem.) He regretted their retirement, because it
would give a triumph not to the Tories—not to the Con-
servative Party, as they called themselves—their day had
gone by for ever—but it was calculated to give a
triumph—a decided triumph to the extreme Radi-
cals, who founded their hopes upon mischief.—(A
single cheer from some lion. Member here broke out.)
The Noble Lord hoped that the Hon. Member who
cheered that expression was not one who funded his
hopes upon mischief.—(Cheers.) It was calculated to
give a triumph to those who carried their views perhaps
honestly much further than reason would allow. Theirs
was a secret triumph, and theirs, unless the real
friends of peaceful Government took good care,
theirs, he said, would be the lasting triumph. He remetn-
bered so long ago as the general election before last
—(laughter)—when he had the honour of canvassing the
county of York along with the present Lord Chancellor;
he remembered at that time, it was long before the French
or the Belgian revolutions, he heard from all parties,
be heard from all those who were well affected towards the
country, that a Reform would be a real blessing to the
country ; that it would be a real blessing if the various
professors of Reform could be brought to concur in any
one general scheme which would give a resting-place to
future generations. This much looked-for, and al-
most despaired-of consummation would have been
got at by the Reform Bill. He did not dread any harm
to the cause of Reform—it was secure, but he dreaded the
disturbed state of the country. What was the conduct
of the party who had thrown out the Bill ? They
would go the whole length of schedule A, at least
they professed so ; but was their conduct at all of
a spirit with the intentions they professed? Suppos-
ing a change of the Ministry to take place, who could they
look for as Leader of that House but the Right Hon.
Member for Tamworth, and could they possibly expect
that he would charge himself with a responsibility, such
as a Bill of Reform would carry along with it, as would
satisfy the country?
Mr. ROBINSON was anxious not to give a silent vote
upon the Address which had been proposed, because it
might be thought that he gave unbounded confidence to
his Majesty's Ministers. In his opinion, the Address merely
went to say that that House only meant that it would sup.
port that Bill for Reform which they • had before
passed. He would give no opinion on the conduct
of the Government as to their resignations—they
roust be the best judges of that themselves; but
it was important for the country, as well as for the
Crown, to know what was the opinion of the House
of Commons on the subject of Reform. It was neces-
sary while his Majesty was employed in the formation
of another Ministry—he said it was important that his
Majesty should be made acquainted that no Ministers would
have the confidence of that House noless they brought

'onward a measure of Reform as efficient as the BM
which had already been passed.—( Hear, hear.)—
Commerce had been languishing, the people had been suf-
fering, there had been a total want of confideence, and
until this question was brought to a filial conclusion, he
(Mr. IL) declared lie could not venture to contemplate
without dismay and apprehension the consequences that
must result from a protraction of this question. It
had been said it would be better to concede Reform by
degrees. This he denied altogether. If the Lords hat
passed this measure as it was sent to them, it would
hare set at rest for a great many years the question
of Reform; and whatever Ministers might be in office,
this measure of Reform must be carried.—(Hear.) It
was 'not a question whether we were to have Reform
to this extent or not, but he verily believed it was whether
we were to have it now or hereafter ; whether we were to
have it now, or after the country had been kept in sus-
pense and uneasiness for some years yet to come ? He de-
clared he could not see Low any one like himself who had
supported the measure of Reform, could be recreant
enough, as he would be, if he were to do any thing now
to defeat the cause—(Loud cheers)—recreant enough to
injure the question of Reform by not supporting the pre-
sent motion, and indeed every step towards accomplishing
Celt most desirable end.--(Loud cheers.)
Lord SANDON rose, but spoke in a tone so low as to
he almost totally inaudible. We understood him to say
that it was a matter, in his opinion, of the utmost im-
portance that this question should be set at rest.
He regretted the course that Government had pursued.
He had no objection to the motion, therefore he should
support it, because he thought it was necessary to assure
his Majesty of the continued feeling in favour of
Reform which prevailed in that House.—(Cheers.)
The Lords must have known long ago that they would
be placed in the situation in which they now stood, if they
intended to carry the Bill unimpaired and unrnutilsted
in any way. If they could have carried the main objects
of the Bill they ought to have been content. Surely we must
have been aware of the almost total impracticability of
carrying so great a measure as this unrnutilated, without
having the whole House of Lords in favour of the
Bill—(Hear, bear, hear)—but be had hoped his
Majesty's Ministers would have been content with
the advantages to have been derived from carrying the
main branches of this sweeping measure. He believed the
great and vital interests of the country depended on
a speedy settlement of this question. It the Ministry
had been content with what they might have carried, the
public in the course of one week would have swallowed
tl e affront which Ministers might have had to brook,
from not being able to carry the :rest measure
entire. He thought it impossible that the same Minis-
ters, without a reconstruction of the House of Lords,
could ever carry so great a measure as this; at the
same time he certainly regretted that the conduct of
this measure should not still have been left in the hands
of the same Ministers. Whoever the Ministers in office
might be, the great principle of Reform would un-
doubtedly have to he carried, and the longer that
was delayed, so much the longer would the stagnation of
trade be protracted, and every branch of commerce in a
greater or less degree be put a atop to. All minor con-
siderations ought to be given up ; and Hon. Members and
Noble Lords would do well to lend their shoulders to help
forward the great cause so much to be desired, that that
Reform might be accomplished which undoubtedly would
have to be effected.—(Loud cheering.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Noble Lord who had just
sat down had imposed a duty on hint which, under the
circumstances, he would be content to have slipped front
under, that of stating to the House why he dissented
from the present motion. After the discussion
which had taken place in that Hones for the last
eighteen months, it would be absurd in him not
to suppose that his opinion respecting those revolutions
differed from the majority of that House. But he saw
nothing in the circumstances of the present times which
would induce him to shrink in the slightest degree from ex-
pressing that opinion, whether it was in accordance or in dis-
sent front the opinions of the majority of that House. He
differed front those resolutions, because he did not par-
ticipate in the confidence which others entertained re-
specting them. He differed from them, because -hedid not
agree as to the expediency of the measures they 'nought
forward. He differed from them because lie considered
those resolutions which they had heard of within the
last three hours, to establish a precedent dangerous at
all times, but particularly under the cironmstancee under
which they were at present placed. He differed the more
with those resolutions as they advocated that extensive
change in the constitution of that House which had
been so lone established. He retained the opinions
which he had expressed with respect to the measure ;
he retained them unabated, notwithstanding the language
of Hon. Gentlemen; notwithstanding the Hon. Gentle-
man's proposition behind him (Mr. Hume) to withdratv the
'vote of the supply to the Crown, and to vest
the money in Commissioners. He had heard nothing. on
the present occasion calculated to diminish his apprehen-
sions as to the tendency of the measure which had -been
proposed, should it be passed into a law.—(Loud cheers.)
If they were about to make the extensive change in: the
Constitution of that House which had been proposed—
if they were about to make that House the express image,
not of the del:berate sentiments of the people, but of
popular impulse, he dreaded the consequences ; but he
looked with particular regard at any precedents
now to be established, which were likely to confirm
that disposition to infringement, which he consi-
dered would be the consequence of the extension of
suffrage now proposed : the change would be no doubt
to make that House the mere -reflection of the popular
voice. As he bad always urged, he did net see how,
if Parliament was to carry the measure to the ex-
tent to which a disposition had been shown to carry it-e-he
did not see how they could reconcile that reformed house
of Parliament, a Parliament formed by the voice, as some
said might be by the paysical gra ngth of the people;. how
they could reconcile that with the existence of any mixed
Government. That was to be viewed with parti-
cular apprehension. The House therefore would nut he
surprised that he differed from the resolutions of the
Noble Lord and the Honourable Gentleman cippoeite,
and he certainly thought the period of bringolg jot-
ward this motion was not a well judged time.—(Hear.)
Such was the opinion of the Noble Lord who
had been for the last eighteen months the leader of
that House. If he had wanted other authority
as to the impropriety of the terms of the resolution,
he would refer the Noble Lord who had brought it forward
to the Member for Middlesex, who had been more com-
municative with respect to the resolution than the Noble,
Lord. He hail repeated the accusation, which never cou'd
be made against the Noble Lord, that he was acting for tl
purpose of opposing the Crown ; and the Hon. Member,
in snaking the observations he had done, had made a most
unnecessary vindication of the Noble Lord. In the
course, however, of his observations, he had made some
rather important disclosures. He had stated that the
Noble Lord never meant anything disrespectful to the
Crown; and that lie (the Hon. Member for Middlesex) had
never contemplated so wild a resolution. The speech of the
Hon. Member went to show that a great increase of the
House of Peers was necessary. The Hon. Member had
taken down words, so had he (Sir Robert Peel)..—
(Hear, hear.) The author of the resolution had said
be thought it necessary to express unabated confidence
in his Majesty's Ministers, in consequence of the. course
they had taken in demanding such an additiOn to the
House of Peers. Sixty he had said would have been a
good number—but 100 would be much more accept-
ecyo,ul,dvinthot
respectagree toto
the
ee
general
trarel scooluutrisoen,powrsbuicedh
expressed unabated confidence in Ministers. He was
boundaccept-
able.H
to say,
by Government, he did not wish to be considered as using
any harsh expressions, or to give offence ; but he
felt himself bound to say, that the conduct
pursued by Government with respect to this measure did
not entitle them to that unabated confidence which the
resolution proposed to give them. By the resolution
proposed by the Noble Lord, the House was called
upon to give unabated confidence to Ministers, who had
thought fit to retire from his Majesty's Counsels, without
the House having any information, without its having
the least explanation of the reasons which had induced
them to do so. That was pursuing a course much greater
than it had ever done before, and was too much to re-
quire of the House. He (Sir R. Peel) could not conceive
a more fatal measure to the interests of the country than
the creating of a certain number of Peers to carry a certain
measure.—(Tremendous cheering from the Opposition.)
What was the use of talking about the authority of Parlia-
ment, when the Noble Lord who was the author of
the resolution said give me 60 or 80 Peers as asarte blanche,
in order that I may overrule the House of Peers ?
A Noble Lord bad said that it would riot be any disgrace
to the escutcheons of the Peers of the country that a great
addition should be made to the Peerage. That might or
might not be so ; but lie feared that the adoption of tee h
a course would establish a bad precedent, and oat i"
Governments might take advantage of it for no good
purpose.—(Cheers.) It had been said that the resolution
could not be properly discossed without going into the
whole question again. lie should be extremely sorry to be
called upon to adopt such a course. He did not consider
the adoption of it neceseary—the main gist of the ques-
tion depending upon the proposals which had been made
by Ministers to his Majesty. No man could doubt
that those Noble Peers who voted for the second reading

[

of the Bill had recognised the principled of setetiula
A, and had by that means admitted that the system
of Government in the country, by the means of
nomination boroughs, could not go on. It was equally
title that they considered the nomination boroughs blots
on the Constitution, and that they ought to be de-
stroyed, and after the recognition of such principles by
the House of Peers, could the House really believe the
people of the country would have stood out upon the
question whether schedule A should be the first or the
tenth clause of the Bill? He considered the course adopted

by the Ministers as calculated to increase instead of
assuage the excitement that at present existed in the
country ; and, in his opinion, if there ever were men
who ought to have avoided placing the country
in a state of confusion, it was his Majesty's Ministers.
For the reasons lie had stated, therefore, he could not
agree with the first resolution, which called upon that
House to express unabated confidence in his Majesty's
Ministers. He passed the second resolution by, as it
contained nothing but what might be readily acceded to.
But with respect to the third resolution, he never could
coincide with it, as it called upon the House to pledge
itself to allow no modification of the Bill. Was such a course

be would ask befitting the House of Commons to pur.
sue ? Was it consistent with the deliberate functions
of the House of Lords? Certainly not. The question
was a question solely between the two Houses of Parlia-
ment, and the adoption of such would be highly improper.
With respect to the last resolution, he could look upon
it in no other light than as a dictation to the Crown of the
course it ought to pursue—(Tremendous cheering)—and
telling his Majesty that he was bound to do all in kis
power to effect unimpaired, in all its essential
provisions, the Bill for the Reform of the Representa-
tion of the people, which had recently passed that House.
It called also upon the Crown to appoint those persons as
Ministers who would pledge themselves to carry the Bill.
Ile considered such dictation to the Crown highly im-
proper and unconstitutional, and such as never could tie
tolerated in the House.—( Hear.) If he wanted autho-
rities on the subject, they were to be found in abundance.
In 1807, his Majesty required from Lords Grey and
Grenville an assurance that they would not, during their
continuance in office, propose certain measures, and the
answer which the Noble Lords then gave was, that
they would not fetter themselves with any preliminary
pledge upon any public measure, but would leave themselves
to act as the exigency of circumstances might require.
How did that coincide with the view which the House of
Commons took of pledges of that nature embodied in its
resolutions? It was resolved, "that the House, feeling the
necessity of a firm and stable government at that crisis,
expressed its deep regret, that a change had taken place in
his Majesty's Ministers, and that this has been
greatly increased by the circumstances to which it
has been ascribed ; that it is contrary to the first,
duties of the responsible Ministers of the King to
restrain themselves by any pledges, expressed or implied,
from submitting to his Majesty, faithfully and truly, what

they feel the immediate exigencies of the case, the honour
of the Crown, and the welfare of his Majesty's dominions."
—(Loud cries of Hear, from the Ministerial Benches.)
Contrast that with the following resolution recom-
mending his Majesty to form no Government but
such as would carry into effect entire, in all ita
essential provisions, that Bill for the Reform of his
people, which has recently passed this House.—(Hear.)
If his Majesty sent that resolution before the formation of
any Government, requiring, under all circumstances, an
adherence to the principles and details of the Bill, he
asked whether any one could accept office. No man could do
otherwise than as Lords Grey and Grenville did, who would
not bind themselves by any preliminary pledge. By pre-
senting that resolution now, the House would call on the
Crown to impose what was unconstitutional, in re-
quiring from those who entered into its service
any pledge as to the future course of their conduct.
It would dictate besides to the Crown not only the prin-
ciples, but the persons of Government. He was afraid
that if that Bill was carried, or a Government was
formed pledged to its provisions, there would
be disposition enough in the people to encroach
on the prerogative of the other branches of the
Legislature ; their fondest anticipations would be re-
alized, and they would become too powerful for any de-
liberative assembly. On these grounds he concurred with
his Hon. Friend in giving his decided negative to their
resolutions.—(Cheers.) •
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Right Honourable
Gentleman had commenced his speech by deprecating Re-
form, and ended by expressing an apprehension lest the
people should have power in their own House. He was
glad that that declaration bad been made openly, because it
showed some might attempt to delude the people :
no hopes of any Reform coed be obtained under him.—
(Hear, hear.) There was one circumstance he regretted
as to the course he had adopted on the Reform Bill,
which was, that he had given his vote for so high a fran-
chise as the ten-pound one.—(Hear.) And he believed
if the result of the conduct of the other House
was to bring the Bill again into that House, the people
would get a much larger Reform. The resolutions pro-
posed had his hearty sanction ; they amounted to a de-
claration of confidence in Ministers, which was founded
on their conduct in having given their late advice
to their Siiivereign. That was their meaning. He agreed
heartily in the wisdom of that advice, being convinced
of its absolute necessity. The speech of the Right
Hoe. Gentleman did not seem suited to the present

occasion. This was not a war of words. This
was not a mere party question, how offices were to be
distributed, and colonial sinecures disposed of ; the
question was vital to the liberties of England ; it was be-
tween slavery and freedom, liberty and despotism—the des-
potism of a sordid oligarcby.—(Loud cheers.) That
most unconstitutional power of nominating Members to
that House had been condemned twice by over-
whelming majorities. It was recorded as a high
encroachment on the liberties of the people,
that any Peers should interfere at elections.—(Cheers.)
But there was another question. The security of the throne
was involved in it. Where was the evidence of reaction ?
Had there been in England, Scotland, or Ireland, any
open meeting even attempted to be held against the
principles of Reform ? The people had determined that
Parliamentary corruption should not continue. And
WAS that disposition abated ? Had even the
people relaxed ? Ever since the House of Lords
had evinced so successfully their late dexterity, when
they wished to destroy the confidence of the public
in the Ministry, what had been the result? Meetings
all over the Metropolis had already taken place.
How were Ministers able to proceed with a Bill
when they found the conduct of it was taken away from
them ? Front that moment, if they bad followed any
other course than they had pursued, they must have been
degraded and deprived of the public confidence. But they
were told it was a dangerous precedent to recommend a
creation of Peers on such an occasion. He wished
it bad been called unconstitutional, because at a certain
period called the Union, one-third was added to the
Irish Peerage, in order to enable the Minister of
that day to carry that question.. If upon an occasion
such as that it was deemed constitutional thus to
fetter an industrious people, why should it he thought
unconstitutional by the exercise of the same prerogative,
to set the rights and liberties of the people on a secure
and firm foundation ?—(Loud cheers.) The Peers
bad a considerable influence in nominating Mem-
bers of that House. The House had declared against it,
but the Peers refused to give it up. How then was it
to be got rid of? He remembered that it had been
proposed at a meeting for the purpose of cleansing the
Augean stable, of turning the river into the House of Lords,
when some one suggested as an amendment, that instead
of turning the river into the House of Lords, the House
of Lords should be turned into the river.—(Cries
of " Hear.") That certainly would be getting rid of it,
but it was not the way he recommended. There was
no constitutional mode of doing it by force or violence.
But while neither the river was turned into house
of Lords, nor the House of Lords turned into the river,
the Crown could meet the exigency of the case by in-
creasing the Peers, and sending into that House men who
having no selfish interest to indulge, having no barough-
mongering ft elings, would be enabled to vote disinterestedly,
and, therefore, honestly. The Ministers bad acted propel ly ;
and he did not envy the feelings of those who had inter-
fered to prevent the accomplishment of the wishes
of the country.—(Cheers.) If any Ministry was created
in despite and contempt of that House, and it would
be in despite and contempt of that House if it was at+
Anti-Reforming Ministry, he could not look forward
to the consequences without apprehension and re-
gret, It was idle to suppose that the people of England
kill be satisfied without an ample measure of Reform.
theta precedent had been alluded to, that of 1807, but
*4B a most important precedent.—(Hear, hear,
hear ) It would be too much to recommend
Tories to
read history—(Loud laughter)—but they. surely
should be expected to understand their own
history—(Loud and continued laughter.) In 1807 the
cry that the Church was in danger, and the cry 01
44 No P
from opery"
o ne was raised, and the entire country was
excited end to the other, and the Tories came
in triumphant. But did they, on that account, put
down the Catholic Question ? No. They gave
the country twenty.ave
years of agitation.—(Hear.)
They bad absorbed the public attention for 25 years,
and ended by being disgracefully beaten.—(Cheers.)

That was the history of Toryism. They had had ta
do with the patient people of Ireland—(Loud laughter'
—he repeated it, the patient people of Ireland, the most
patient people on tbc face of the earth; aod eve❑ the sneers
that were levelled against them pt used that they bad pa-
tience even under the greatest insults. He defied any one
to prove that they had been guilty of any crime while endea
vouring to obtain Catholic Emancipation. Though they
had to do with the patient people of Ireland, he much
doubted whether they would have to do with so patient a
people either in England or Scotland. As to the pledges
which it was complained had been required of Ministers,
had the House never heard of the pledges of Ministers
before now ? Had they not heard of pledges even against
the liberties of the people? Besides, if a man pledges
himself to his own principles, was there any obj'ction to
it? Was a man to be required to pledge himself to for-
sake his own principles ? The mere distinction be-
tween pledges and principles was only a mere
Tory distinction. Therefore, whether there was anything
unconstitutional in the King ascertaining the principles of
those whom he chose for his Ministers, and requiring theit
pledge to those principles, it was now unnecessaty to
inquire. His Majesty's Ministers had come into office
pledged to Reform, and if they did not pledge themselves
to the King, the King had pledged himself to them. He
would not say that the King had violated his pledge, for
the King could do no wrong, but those who had placed
his Majesty and his Ministers in their present co❑dition
bad acted a most improper part.—(Cheers.) He
was glad that the Ministers had adopted the course
they had taken. If they had desired to resign their
situations they could not have seized a better opportu
nity, for they bad resigned with their characters
perfectly unblemished, but he trusted that their return to
power would be very speedy, in order that they might
give to the people that great measure without which they
would be the basest slaves.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord SANDON rose to make a few observations, by
way of explanation, but in consequence of the loud cries
of " Order," and " Spoke," he sat down, and made way
for

Mr. MACAULAY, who was loudly called for.—
He humbly begged to make a few observations
upon the important events which had within a very
short period followed each other so very rapidly. In
the course of eighteen months they had been on the verge
of a precipice, and he had never until now known what it
was to feel any uneasiness upon political affairs. If,
however, there had been a question at any period
which called for the wisdom, energy, and public spirit of
that House—if ever there was a question in which there
was at one stake all the dearest interests of the
community, it was the present question. (Hear,
hear.) With great cause for great pain and anxiety he
saw also ample cause for joy and delight. He anticipated
with perfect confidence that the decision to-night would
be that decision which was indispensably necessary to their
own honour, and to the safety of the common weal.
There was another ground for joy and congratulation.
They had still leaders—and leaders, too, to whom they
could look with confidence, with pleasure, and with pride—
leaders who deserved all the support that had been given
to them.—(Cheers.) They had fallen, hut had fallen
with unblemished honour.—(Cheers.) The sincerity of
the Statesman they had been supporting had been brought
to the test, and had been found sterling. They had been
brought into power by the voice of the people—they
had been supported by the people whose cause they advo-
cated while in power, and they retired from power rather
than betray the people—(Loud and continued cheers)—
and they would carry to their retirement, as they justly
deserved, the full confidence of the people.—( Cheers.) He
bore this testimony with all his heart and soul, and prouder
was he of them in this day of their glorious disgrace,
because he found their honour was not to be shaken by any
inglorious intrigue. He addressed that House, convinced,
as he was, that the majority of the 3lembers admitted the
necessity of passing the Reform Bill. Therefore, he
would not enter into the merits of that Bill. With respect to
the motion now before the House, he gave it his cordial
support.—(Loud cheers.) Of the objections which
had been made by the Right Honourable Member for
Tamworth (Sir R. Peel), some of them seemed to him
to be scarcely worthy of the great power and the high sta-
tion of that Right Hon. Bart.—(Hear.) As to the first
objection, viz. to recommending his Majesty, upon the
choice of his Ministers, it was his (Mr. M.'s)opinion, that
although the power of choosing Ministers was a prerogative
of the Crown, yet it was perfectly constitutional fur this
House to offer their advice to his Majesty.—(Hear.)
He laid it down as a rule to which there was no exception,
and which could not be denied even by the Right Hon.
Baronet. They would not act in any way unjustifiably
if they went so far as to designate the persons by name
whom they might recommend to his Majesty, as they
sometimes did when they recommended persons to his Ma-
jesty for preferment in the Church, the army, or the navy.
He therefore laid this down as a universal rule, that,
in all the prerogatives of the Crown, the House
had the power of offering their advice to the
Crown.—(Hear, hear.) He understood the present
motion to mean a recommendation to the Crown to retain
his present Minister,. He stated this to be his under-
standing of their motion, and for this reason, that he did not
know of any other materials out of which a Ministry
could be formed.—(Loud cheers.) But it was said that
the Ministers had not been dismissed ; that they had re
signed their offices ; and that in advising his Majesty to
recall them to office, it was by no means certain that they
would return. This sophistry was far below what he
had expected to hear from the quarter from which
it came—(loud cheers)—for of course the House must
know that when they intended to recommend his Majesty
to take back his Ministers, they intended also to recom-
mend that the advice of the Ministers should be adopted
also.—(Cheers.) That that was the opinion of a
great majority of the House he had not the
slightest doubt. Then as to the advice which
had been given to his Majesty, the Right
Honourable Gentleman had declared that to carry
any public measure by the creation of Veers, ne-
cessarily implied the destruction of the authority
of the House of Lords, and he would not admit
that a case of necessity could possibly arise which would
justify such a proceeding. He understood the Right Hon.
Baronet that such a measure, if not illegal, was inconsistent
with the existence of the House of Lords as an indepen-
dent branch of the Legislature He (Mr. IV!.) thought
the prerogative of creating Peers was a most useful
measures, the exercise of which was sometimes the only
mode of preventing great inconveniences.—(Cheers.)
But this was a case which required no authority that
could be quoted to justify their trusting a great
part of the Constitution to a wholly irresponsible
power. It was possible that the House of Lords might
he mistaken with respect to questions which concerned the
dearest interests of the country, and which stirred up the
fiercest passions of the people,—(Cheers.) Kings
had been mistaken before now, and Houses of Lords
had also been mistaken, and what had happened once
might happen again. Circumstances which hap-
pened in the reign of a James might also happen
again—(Loud cheers)—and therefore looking at what
bad happened, and the possibility of what might happen,
he thought they ought to take means of preventing
such occurrences as hod occurred, when a House of Loi ds ,
had been blind to the dangers and inflexible to the wants
of the other orders of the State. They had known of
foolish and perverse kings, and of foolish and perverse
Houses of Commons; and was it not possible that they might
have also foolish and perverse Houses of Lords ?—(Cheers.)
Against the folly and the perverseness of a King they had
a check ; against their folly and perverseness the King had
a check. Was there, then, to be no check upon the folly
and perverseness of a House of Lords ? If the King mis-
used his prerogatives, they could refuse him supplies,
disband his army, and impeach his Ministers. If
they offered factious opposition to his Government,
the King could dissolve them, and not only that, but
choose his own time for referring to the sense of the
people, arid thus refer to that sense when he was most
likely to find it favourable to his views. He asked them
whether there was any thing in the Constitution of the
illustrious assembly of which he was now speaking, which
necessarily exempted it from those errors to which, as
they knew, a King was liable, to which, as they knew, a
House of Commons was liable? If its liability to err
were as great as their own, ought there not to be a similar
check placed upon it? . If they were prepared to adopt
the contrary supposition ; if the great problem has
seen solved, of finding a body which can never
err; if there were these magical virtues in firs and
strawberry-leaves; if those anuses of power which
had taken pace amongst Kings and Houses of Com-
mons could never take place amongst Peers end
Earls, the best thing they could do vvas to abolish Mo-
narchy, to abdicate their own functions, and to place
all power in the hands of this perfect power.--
(Hear, hear.) But if, as be believed, the House of Lords
was not less liable to err than a King and a House
of Commons, on what principle was it that they were
called upon to concede to a House of Lords perfect inde-
pendence; to grant it a power they did not yield to the
King, which they never dreamed of asking for themselves ?
It the Constitution were, as had been often said, a system
I tnutual checks, on what principle was it, one great body
n the Constitution was to be left without any check
whatever? This was not the Constitution—the Consti-
tution had in this case, as in others, provided a check.
Tire Constitution had not bestowed upon the House of-

' Lords the dangerous privilege of being the only I ody in '
he state upon which was no L gal restraint, and against the
:rrors of which the people couldhave no appeal, excepting
through physical force. But as the Constitution bad pro.
vided means by which the House of Commons could guard
igaiust the arbitrary power of the King, as the Constitu-
tion had provided means by which the King could repress
any turbulent disposition in the House of Commons, even
so had the Constitution provided means by which in great
exigencies, the evils which the obstinacy of the House of
Lords might bring upon the country were guarded against.
" But," said the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for
Tamworth, " the precedent is dangerous." He admitted
the danger,—he admitted that the power was liable to
Those; but he had nothing except a choice of
'angers. Speaking on this subject, without the slightest
reference to present times, and as if they were discussing
Lord Somers' Peerage Bill in a debating society, he
,vould say, that if he were compelled to determine whether
he would rather trust the King to create Peers for the
purpose of occasionally carrying a great question, or trust
the House of Lords with their power of obstructing inea-
•ures approved of by the other branches of the Legislature,
he should not hesitate in choosing the former. He did not
believe that the power with which be thus trusted the
King was very likely to be abused. The Ministers who
recommended a creation of Peers, were responsible for the
advice they gave, whilst the House of Peers were not so for
their votes. In contemplating the whole case, be must
confess that althotrah he admitted to the full the evil of
trusting this power in the King's hands, he yet thought it
a less evil than the other upon which they would be
thrown upon not so trusting it. If any Honourable
Gentleman would devise a Peerage Bill free from
the deadly objections to which he thought that of
Lord Somers liable, which would secure to the
House of Lords independence of the Crown, and at the
same time render it certain that that body would not
offer fatal opposition to measures which were for the
welfare of the country, he would gladly give it his
support.—(Hear, hear.) He was compelled to place
confidence some where, and he placed it in those
hands whence there seemed the least danger of
its being abused, and if abused where the consequences of
that abuse would be the least pernicious. There was
danger, certainly, that this prerogative should be abused ;
but was there no danger of any other prerogative of the
Crown? The prerogative which bore the closest
analogy to that of creating Peers, was the prerogative
of dissolving Parliament. However they might differ on
all other subjects, every one must agree that the.-preroga-
tive of dissolving Parliament was not only liable to abuse,
but had been grossly abused. Honourable Gentlemen
opposite might probably think it was grossly abused
last year ; he thought that it was grossly abused
in 1807, and Ministers had actually been
impeached fur advising a dissolution of Parliament.
Why then was one prerogative allowed to be exercised
without comment, whilst the other was spoken of as one
which ought only to exist in name, and never to be exer-
cised? But there were cases in which the exercise of
this prerogative might be matter of necessity (he
used the word in its strongest sense), and when, un-
less it were exercised, the whole machine of Government
might stand still. Suppose the House of Lords took one
side, and the House of Commons took another, on some
great public question—suppose this difference were to
continue session after session—suppose it were
incurable by a dissolution of the House
of Commons, it is clear that the Government must stand
still, or Peers be created. Further—let them consider
whether the same objection did not apply in principle
to a large and gradual addition to the House of Peers, as
well as to the creation of fifty in the course of a day. If
there were no objection to the creation of 300 Peers in
the course of a generation by one party, who, during
that time might hold power ; if they did this in batches
of six and seven, and thus fortified their own party in
that strong hold of the State, was not the other
party, upon coining into power, to be at liberty by
one decisive measure, to restore the balance? To
say that it was not, was saying in so many words
that a party which had been in power for thirty
or forty years must continue in power for ever—
it was saying in so many words that who was to
be Minister in 1832 was to depend upon whether
Mr. Fox or Mr. Pitt was Minister in 1800,
upon whether Lord Liverpool or Lord Grey was
Minister in 1820. It was making the present gene-
ration the slaves of the past. But the case might be put
stronger ; for let them suppose that a House of Lords
thus constantly recruited from one party was constantly
moving in a diverging direction from the people, sl
that at length upon every great and vital ques-
tion, overwhelming majorities of the people
were found on one side and overwhelming majorities of the
House of Lords on the other. He would not urge how
pernicious this must be to the country, how injurious
to the authority of the House of Commons and of the
King, but would ask in what position of greater danger
the House of Lords itself could be placed ? He could
not conceive one of greater danger. The House of
Lords, in one sense of the word, was not a
representative body ; but every legislative body must
so far have the character of a representative body as
to hear in the mixed proportion of its parties,
no great or monstrous unlikeness to those which prevail
amongst the public generally. (Hear.) He could not
conceive any thing much less agreeable to the. minds
of persons who really wished to preserve the institution
of the Peerage, than a House of Lords which should
represent nothing but itself ; than a House of Lords
which had no great party in the State to back it ; than a
House of Lords, the Members of which had no other
weight than that which they derived from personal abi-
lity and personal wealth. It appeared to him, therefore,
that there was, in the present case, all the circumstances
which could justify a Ministry in recommending
to the Crown a large creation of Peers. Looking
to the letter of the law, the power of the King
was undoubted, and whatever was expedient under
such circumstances was constitutional.—(Loud cheers.)
The letter of the law coincided with that highest law,
the necessity of the state. He, however, deeply regretted
that the advice tendered to his Majesty had not been
accepted. He deeply regretted that that conduct had
now placed them under the necessity of looking round the
political world to seek from what parties they must
supply their places. If they did not return to office it
seemed clear to him that the Reform Bill was
lost. He said so because he was at a loss to conceive
how, in the present state of the political world,an
nistration could be formed out of the parties of the pre-
sent Opposition, which could possibly carry through
even in a mutilated form this Reform Bill. From the Hon.
Gentlemen he saw opposite he could not expect such
an Administration to be formed.—(Hear.) He could
not believe, notwithstanding what had been said,
that consistency, that honour, that regard of character had
so utterly left Gentlemen, who, during their whole lives,
had been against all Reform ; 'who, in the spring of 1830,
refused representatives to three large towns ; who, in the
autumn of 1830, had resigned office rather than bring in
any plan of Reform whatever, who from the Ist
of March, IH3I, had never failed to attack it as a whole,
and in all its parts; who had represented the disfranchising
clauses as downright robbery ; who had represented the
enfranchising clauses as necessarily tending to the
worst and most odious form of mob Government ;
who had represented the qualification fur votes as
bad at one time because it was nominally uniform,
and at another because it was not uniform ; who raised
the cry of universal suffrage in the ears of the rich and of
a 10/. aristocracy in the ears of the poor. He could never,
he repeated, believe that men who had so acted could
be so lost to all sense of consistency, of honour, of cha-
racter, and of shame, again to accept office under
the circumstances, they would be required to do so.
He believed there was too much virtue yet left in public
men, but if not too much virtue, there was so much
shame as to prevent that party from now coming in end
carrying the Reform Bill. The inconsistency would be
too great. The motives would be too obvious.—
(Immense cheering.) He did not believe that a
measure of Reform as efficient as the last would be
introduced by a Government formed from the Opposition.
In fact, he believed that no party in that Opposition could
form a Government that possibly could last ; because he.
believed that no Government formed from the other side of
the House would bring in a Bill to please the public was one
reason why he supported the address. The case now stood
thus. Those who would carry on the Government by the
Reform Bill, could not carry on the Government in the
House of Lords, and the Opposition could not be expected
to carry on the business of Government in that House
For these reasons it was lie considered the Reform Bill
was lost ; and he was obliged to confess that he would
rather that it was so, than that it should be sent
back to that House so mutilated, that it might be said
its life blood was gone. What was to he the state
of the nation on the second appointment, especially if it
was to be thought that that House by its vote to night
should show that it was to be final ? He was one who
was as much prepared to contend against the errorrs
of the people, even as much as he nosy did in their
favour, when he thought they were calling for thin.
rights. He could not be silent when he saw around him
all the materials of the dissolution of empires,—(Cheers.)
He felt himself called upon to raise his voice
as a warning to those whom he thought were
bringing the ecuntry to destruction. If it was possible

to get renegades enough from that side cf the House to
I've them, as they called themselves, the Conservative
Party, a majority, their troubles would only be be-
.inning.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The war was now with
,üblic opinion. A Conservative Government might pro-
icute, but uo juries would convict. Gagging Bills might
:ie introduced, and they would not be worth the paper
,n which they were written.—(Cheers.) To the Nouse of
Commons he would say, "be firm."—(Cheers.) Remem-
ber the men who were not called upon to fulfil common du-
ties, remember the Bill which they had brought forward ;
tad new—when a faction, under a momentary triumph,
was preparing to destroy the long cherished wishes of
the people—by their vole to-night, by their firm
-onduet, show to the King—(Cheers)—to the House 0'
Lords—(Cheers)—and to the people, that they were
resolute in their determination to support the Bill
which they bad formerly passed—(Loud cheers). By
By their vote of that night he called upon them to save
(he Monarchy,—to save the Peerage, even against
themselves—(Loud cheers,)—which circumstances had
placed in a state of hostility against the country ;
end if a contest between those two should arise
it was well known which must be the greatest sufferers.
He beseeched the House, by all that they held dear, to save
the majesty of the crown.—(The Hon. Gentleman sat
down amidst loud cheering.)
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL said, on former occa-
sions they had been obliged to fight with a living Ministry,
but it now appeared that they had only to contend with
the shadow of a dead one.—(Loud laughter.) The
Resolutions upon which the motion then before the
House was founded seemed to imply that the House
had perfect confidence in the Ministry, but against that he
must protest. He had no great confidence in them,
not only bad he no confidence in them or the Bill, but
on almost all occasions, and all measures they had brought
forward, bad he been completely destitute of such a thing
in them. No confidence in them, on the Russian loan,
as little on their budget, and on the timber duties
he was widely separated from them, as the Poles from
each other. They were told that the Noble Earl (Grey)
held it inconsistent with his dignity that the clauses or pro-
visions of the Reform Bill should be considered or interfered
with, but he must say that the Noble Lord who had led
the House of Commons upon that Bill had been
obliged to Submit to such interference in that
House ; not only on the Reform Bill was the
Chancellor of the Exchequer obliged to defer to
the opinion of the Opposition, but on, his budget he was
altogether swamped—(Hear, hear, hear.) Had the rule
laid down by Earl Grey been formally followed, the
Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have re-
signed eight months ago, for he believed that no
Chancellor of the Exchequer had ever before suffered
so humiliating a defeat upon a subject which was so
intimately connected with his office, as the Noble Lord
opposite had been upon his Budget. On the subject of
the resolution the Noble Lord had introduced,
he should beg leave to say for one that he agreed
entirely in the sentiments expressed by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, who had stated to him that if he had
followed his advice, he would not have brought the pre-
sent question forward. It had been the custom of that
House, during the time that he (Sir Charles We-
therell) had had the honour of a seat in it, that
those Ministers should not bring forward any mea-
sures themselves or permit their friends to do so.
Taking that rule into consideration, he could not but say
the present motion was brought forward at a most im-
proper period. And in his opinion, when the Mem-
bers of that House carne to vote on the present
motion, it would be the duty of Ministers to walk out of
the !louse and not vote at all.—(Tremendous cheering.)
It had always been usual when any thing was brought
forward of a personal nature to any Hon. Member, for
him to retire. No person could say but that the present
motion was personal to Ministers and brought forward
solely for the purpose of restoring them to that office
from which they had thought proper to retire. He
could not concur in any one of the resolutions. The
subject might be divided into three elementary p irts.
First, unabated confidence in Ministers, and a sort of re- '
gret for their retirement ; then a dictation to the Crown
as to its choice of Ministers, and a dictation to Mi-
nisters to adopt the Reform Bill. He had very shortly
touched on one of them, and bad stated the reasons
why he could not put any confidence in Ministers. Now
the Noble Lord opposite had stated that the King's refusal
to create Peers was the cause of the resignation. But
they had not acquainted the House with the number that
was proposed to his Majesty. Somethig like sixty had been
hinted at. But the Hon. Member for Middlesex appeared to
know more about the matter than Ministers had stated, that
70 was the smallest number that could be asked for. Could
it, he would ask, be expected that his M :jetty would so
far degrade his own prerogative as to accede to such a
request? Or ought Ministers who bad required
such a creation for the purpose of extinguishing
the independence of the House of Lords to be
considered worthy of the confidence of that House ?
(Loud cheers.) Instead of condemning them for retiring at
such an eventful moment, the House by the present reso-
lution was called on to express its confidence in Ministers
who had advised the Crown to stretch to so great an
extent its prerogative. In his opinion, Ministers
had recomendel his Majesty to commit a political
crime, and because his Majesty had vindicated his
own honour and independence, by refusing to perpetrate
that crime which his false advisers had advised him to
commit, that House was called on to express its regret at
the course adopted by Ministers, and to give them its unli-
mited confidence.—(Great cheering.) In his opinion, the
demands of Ministers were criminal in the extreme;
and the King had done himself immortal honour
by refusing to comply with such a request, and had shown
himself possessed of sufficient courage, however advised,
to adhere to the principles of Constitution. Whoever
thought that it was according to the law of the Consti-
tution, or any thing approaching to it, to adopt the
course which Ministers had done, but then support what
he could not hut call, the insulting motion of the Cordelier
of Devonshire. The Hon. Member for Caine had al-
luded to the reign of James 11., and said that
care must be taken that they did nut get a House of
Lords of the same calibre, as existed at that period. He
(Sir C. W.) cordially concurred in that; for he could
not but consider that a House of Lords, with a hundred
Peers sent into it, to do as they were ordered, would
be that sort of House of Lords which James the Second
would have sanctioned for the purpose of answering his ig•
nominous ends. The introduction of so many Peers into the
House would be absolutism in its most frightful form.
If he was right on former occasions when new Ministers,
were formed, always a considerable time had elapsed be
fore anything was done. At Mr. Perceval's death, eight
or nine days elapsed, during which no business was done
at all ; and lie believes! no precedent could he adduced
in which, within 24 hours after Ministers had gone to the
E ing to have the Government broken up, they had per-
'flitted their friends in the House of Commons to bring for-
ward such barefaced and unblushing measures as had now been
proposed, by which the King was to be reduced to the
necessity of restoring those Ministers who had so un-
constitutionally retired from office, and who at the
same time would have been so meritoriously dis-
missed if they had not retired. He hoped he
had not improperly occupied time in calling the at-
tention of the House to the affirmative of what was em
braced in the resolutions now before them, as
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complain that he had been degraded because the House of
Lords would not succumb to him ? Ho (Sir C. W.) would
ask whether the King had not a right to be offended ?
Had the House of Lords mit a right to be
offended ? Was the Prime Minister to say, I will soh-
due these men—they shall discuss the subject which 1
liming forward just as I think proper—if they don't,
the King shall he insulted by the retirement
of his Ministers—(Hear, hear, hear)—if not, the
House of Lords shall be insulted by an infusion of mem-
bers in a most unconstitutional manner.—(Hear, hear.)
Should the time ever come when the House of Lords shall
he subdued, it will then be high time that that
House should be suppressed, and no longer exist.
If the question which they were now discussing was a
sub ary case, then, indeed, that of itself would be a suf-
ficient reason why the precedent should not be established.
He congratulated the country that there was now a
Monarch on the Throne who had refused to comply
with the unconstitutional policy—the concealed villany, un-
der the insidious appearance of liberality, of compelling chi
House of Lords to perform a most unconstitutional act.
It was not the Political Unions, or the clamour out of
doors, which was to carry a measure of this sort, and he
hoped the King would be rewarded by the feelings of all
his loyal subjects for his courageous refusal to commit a
criminal political crime.
Mr. SCHONSWAR spoke amidst cries of Question,"
He hoped the House would adhere to its former ()pinions,
and that there would be no waverers here, who were
r aly to worship the rising sun.
'"*.:l C. HUNT saidithe Hon. and learned Member for

Caine had laid it down, that if there was to be a Refort,
it must be by his Majesty's Ministers. He reminded bit
(Mr. Hunt) very much of the dog in the manger
(A laugh)—so that as Ministers could not carry a Reforn
heruselves, they would take can• up one else should. 11
(Mr. Hunt) was of opinion that the people of Englanc
were anxious for Reform, but they did not care whether
it was brought forward by Whigs or Tories. When th•
Ministers were out of office they always opposed th
amount of the standing army; but when they came int,
Office they increased the standing army. The Minister
had refused to give any money for the assistance of th,
Poles, while they had given money to Russia to oppres,
Poland.—(Cries of " Oh. oh," and " Question.'',
lesides this, Ministers had been a deluding of the people.)
—(Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.) Ministers bail
,Allowed the Press to go on day after day assuring the
people confidently that the King was ready to create Peers.
Ellis turned out to be untrue. The Ministers, therefore,
ad been a deluding of the people. Those who were
in the secret had misled the country—(Hear, hear).
old therefore the Ministers were not deserving of eon-
tidence.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and much laughter.)
He knew that this motion would be carried by a very
large majority ; and therefore be hoped the House woulii
give him credit for conscientious motives when he voted
against them.—(Laughter.) Let them look at the Morn-
ing Herald.—(Cries of " Oh, oh !") He was going to
read them a passage from the Morning Herald.—(Much
groaning, and coughing, and laughter, which continued
throughout the reading of the following passage.)—" It
is clear that a gross deception has been practised on the
country ; and let us ask, who have been the parties to
that deception ? The King's name has, undoubtedly, often
been made use of by the Whig Ministers, in such a way
as imposed on the public credulity, and made it be very
generally believed there were no lengths which the utmost
limits of constitutional power embraced which his Ma-
jesty was not prepared to go, with the view of carrying
the Reform Bill. The people have been, therefore, grossly
deceived." He took the liberty of reading this passage
to show that he did not 'stand alone, and that one of the
public press agreed with him, and spoke his sentiments.
—(Loud cheering and laughter.) He would only add,
that he did not care about changes of Ministers, for be
was quite sure that the people would have Reform in spite
of any Ministry.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when the
numbers were—
For Lord Ebrington's motion 2BB
Against it

Majority in favour of Lord Ebrington's motion

On our readmission to the gallery we timnd
Lord EBRINGTON on his legs. We understood the
Noble Lord to say, that considering that under existing
circumstances it would be more conson.int with his Ma-
jesty's feelings to have this address presented to him with
as little parade as possible, he begged to move " that the
address be presented to his Majesty's by such Members of
the House, as were of his Majesty's Most Hon. Privy
Council."

Sir C. WETHERELL begged to remind the Noble
Lord that the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, the late
Ministers, were of his Majesty's Most Honourable Privy
Council : and having reminded the Noble Lord of this,
he begged to ask the Noble Lord whether the object of his
motion was to insult the King, by sending the address to
his Majesty through his Majesty's late Ministers.—(Loud
cries of " Oh, oh.")
Lord ALTHORP said, that there could be no doubt
that in the motion he had just made his Noble Friend had
departed from the ordinary usage of the House ; which
usage was, that addresses like this should be presented to
the King, not by the Members of tie Privy Council, but
by the whole House. It must, however, he thought, be
clear to any man of ordinary sagacity, and of ordinary
candour, that the object of his Noble Friend was to consult
his Alajesty's feelings by having this address presented in
the most private way possible.—(Loud sheets.) He was
sure that the majority of the House would duly appreciate
this considerate view of his Noble Friend—(Renewed
cheers)—and he was equally sure that very few persons
indeed, either in that House or out of that House, would
think that the Noble and Learned Gentleman had displayed
much loyalty in taunting and ridiculing his Noble Friend
for being delicately scrupulous lest there should be even
the appearance of wounding his Majesty's feelings.—(Loud
and long continued cheering.)
Sir C. WETHERELL said, that the Noble Lord had a
right to his view of the subject, but he (Sir C. Wetherell)
had also a right to his, which view he should certainly
take the liberty of defending.—(Here a general ery of
" Spoke," spoke" was raissd, and the Hon. and Learned
gentleman sat down.)
Sir R. VYVYAN expressed his surprise that any in-
tention should have been entertained of moving that an ad-
dress, which involved the principle whether the ether
branch of the legislature should be dictated to by the Mi-
nister, and which had only been carried by a majority of
80---(loud laughter, and cries of " Hear," from the Mi-
nisterial benches)—should be presented by the whole
House. He would much rather that the Ministers would
solicit a private audience from his Majesty, and present the
address themselves in private, tkan that the whole of the
House should be guided on this occasion by merely a ma-
jority of 80.—(Continued laughter and cheers from the
same quarter.) He had never heard of such a thing be-
fore. Many gentlemen had voted on the present occasion,
after declaring that they only voted for the Reform Bill,
and not for a change in the House of Lords ; and yet
after all, the question only been carried in a House of
500 Members, by a majority of 80.—(Roars of laughter.)
It was necessary that the nation at large should know this.
—(Great cheering from the Ministerial benches.) The
Ministers hail been tried by a packed jury; and they had
also voted themselves in order to swell their own majority.
Colonel SIBTHORP said, that among the majority 100
persons might fiirly be reckoned as being influenced by the
expectation of being made Peers.—(Laughter.)
Sir 11. INGLIS said a few words, which were not heard

Lord EBRINGTON said that he would not be tempted
by any thing which had fallen from Members on the othe'
side of the Roos?, to imitate that tone, which, in the
exercise of their discretion, they had thought proper to
assume on the present occasion.—(Hear, hear.) Hr
could not, however, but express his suprise at the ignorance
of the Hon. and Learned Member opposite, with respect to
the practice of former Administrations, when questions like
the present had been brought forward. if he had studied
the history of Pitt's administration, he would have known
that that Minister and his colleagues always voted when
questions like the present were brought under the eon.
sidertion of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
The question was then put and carried, that the address
be presented to his Majesty by such Members of the House
as were of his Majesty's Privy Council.
The orders of the day were dispsed of, and the House
adjourned at a quarter to three o'clock.