The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, APRIL 3, 1835.

House.
Mr. BORTHWICK again rose amid loud cries of " Question,
question," and " Divide, divide." He could assure the House
that he would occupy only a few minutes of its time, reserving
to himself the right, should the present matter be carried further,
to explain his views and feelings upon it more in detail. He was
called upon by the Noble Lord opposite to vote for a resolution that
the House should go into Committee to determine whether the sur-
plus revenues (if there were any) of the Irish Church should
or should not be devoted to the general education of the
people of Ireland.—(Here the cries of " Divide, divide,"
and " Question, question," resounded from all parts of the House. )
The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to speak amidst so much confu-
sion, and cries of " question," that he was inaudible for some
minutes. He had the deepest respect for the deliberations of the
House, and if he had used any improper or disrespectful expres-
sion, it was not intentional.--(Question.) Was that the hearing
which the House granted to these who appealed to its indulgence ?
—( Great noise, and cries of Oh, and Question.) He had only
intended to speak on the two grounds to which he had alluded, and
reserved to himself the right of saying more in the Committee if
the question should be referred to one.—(Here the noise and the
cries of " Question," and " Divide," became tremendous, and the
Hen. Member sat down.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—I should not trespass at this late hour of
the night, but that I am unwilling to allow so important a discus-
sion to the interests of Ireland to be passed over without offering
a few observations on the subject. I shall endeavour to be as brief
as possible, and shall not allow myself to be carried away by the
cheers, nor put down by the ridicule of either side of the House.
I am an humble individual—(Cheers)--and, as I am, I have a duty
to perform which does not fall to every Honourable Mem-
ber of this House.—(Hear, hear.) You have been four nights—
important nights debating on a subject of deep interest to Ireland.
To-morrow's post will carry the result of your deliberations 'What
is to be done—either that there is a hope of better council and good
Government to Ireland, or of deep exasperation. You ought to be
aware that for 400 years Ireland has been misgoverned. Who is
it that will deny me this ? I never heard any body yet hardy
enough to deny so known a fact, and if there was 1 would shout him
down, and treat the denial with contempt. The Gallant Officer
did not qualify it by denying it, but by saying that it was not on
the score of religion. " Religion," says he, " iisnot the cause of
it." These are consequences of comparative inferiority. On the
one hand, there was the petulant and overstriding spirit of one
party, with the domination and the bigotry of another. By the endl
of this night's debate we shall know whether there is to be a better
system established, and whether we are to hope for a better form
of Government to be substituted. I think the value of this decla-
ration consists in its being an earnest pledge that better days are at
hand. It is not who shall be the Ministry, but it ought to go either
to a denial of justice—the hundredth thousandth denial, or it ought
to be as the first proclamation that a better system was about to be
given to that country. Oh, I should be disposed to trespass on
the House in stating her grievances. Who is it that denies her
capabilities? Who is it that denies her fertility? Who is it
that deniesher abundance—or who is it that denies the endowments
which nature and Nature's God hath given her. What country has
so many opportunities—What country so miserable ? You have
produced it. The British Government, I arraign you for this. It
has been the system of Government you have adopted towards Ire-
land that have produced these effects which you now behold.—
And why should it be so ? The people of England are protestants.
The Church of the people is the Church of the State, and there is that
community between the Church and the people, that they both blend.
The religion of the people of Scotland is the religion of the State.
There is no party feeling exists between them, because this reli-
gion was made subject to the requirements of the country. But I
agree with the Hon. Member for Weymouth. Ido not want to
make the religion of the country the religion of the State ;
(Cries of " Hear, hear")—for I mean to say that there is
nothing so destructive as to make the Church so rich as to
be too attentive to the affairs of the State—inattentive to the
wants of its dependants. Ireland does not want the religion of the
people to be the religion of the State—if the Protestant be the
better religion let it succeed, and if it be the better it will succeed.
Nay I say more, that it ought to succeed.—(Hear, hear, hear. )
But can you, under the present system, approach the Irish peasant,
and ask him to change his faith while you address him in the garb
of an oppressor.—(Cheers.) I assure the House I am passing as
rapidly over the topics which are passing in my mind as rapidly as I
possibly can, and I lay down the position that Ireland has been long
and grievously misgoverned.—( Hear, hear.) lam ready to prove
it. I can show distinctly that one principle should be extended to
the three countries, and I ask you no longer to give all the wealth,
and every thing that is raised from the people, to a Church to
which they do not belong, and from whose doctrines they con-
scientiously dissent.—(Loud cheers.) Let me here just say
that I cordially concur with my Friend the Member for Wey-
mouth. If the Protestant religion should increase under the
circumstances he has mentioned, the Members of it can
fairly and honestly come into this House, and ask for an increase
of its revenues. There is not one particle of anything savouring of
bigotry or of exclusiveness—not one particle of any thing which
calls upon you to act against Protestantism in the resolution, or in
the system proposed by the Noble Lord, of which I am
now the advocate. Why do you oppose the motion as Protestants
and Statesmen? Do you oppose it on the ground of religion or
of State policy ? Have you the ground of religious motives ? For
three hundred years you have used every instrument to convert the
Catholics to Protestantism. No such scenes were ever witnessed
in any country as were enacted in that.—( Cheers.) All the power
of the State—all the emaciating cruelties of a barbarous Penal
Code—were put in force to induce the Irish people to abandon
their faith. You gave to the Protestant religion dignity, and
state, And worldly honours, and you loaded the professors of the
religion of the majority of the people with penalties and disgrace.
They had despoiled their altars--they had profaned their tem-
ples—deprived them of their churches, and threw every ob-
stacle in the way of the ancient faith. Could that be done in
England ? Would it be tolerated in this country ? Would any
man be so mad as to think that the two millions of British Catholics
would be allowed to make the Catholic religion the religion of the..
State ?—that they could make the people pay the tithes, and
oblations and offerings to the clergy, whose services they required
not ? If the attempt were made, it is not in Parliament they
would then be discussing the question. It would long since have
been decided elsewhere. Did not the people of England before
dispute the right of a Monarch who attempted to do violence to their
consciences, and sent him a fugitive and a miserable outcast from his
kingdom ? The experiment had been tried, but it had not succeeded.
I will not detain the House by particular instances, but I will take the
county Kerry, which it has been stated, in the year 1731, ac-
cording to Parliamentary returns, had a population in which
the Protestants were to the Catholics as twelve to one. What
is the population now ? 1 shall be able to shew the House, that
the proportion of the Protestants to the Catholics now is as
fifty-two to one.—( Hear.) Have you succeeded there ?—( Cneers. )
Take any other part of the country, and you will find that the re-
sult has been precisely similar. Sir, I would net have attempted
to address the House at all if it had not been contended that as

Pretestanis you were bound to defend the present system. If it
hail not ix - urged by the Noble Lord hat all they wanted
were your, active curates, possessing, above all things, " nerve."
—( Chetrs Iseghter.) This was a very curious compliment to
all the by-e -"men, who, it appears from this, were not
very active, sed no " nerve."---(Renewed laughter.)
You have heel 300 years at work before you fished up this
" nerve," and yet .nen were ever more eulogized than the Pro-
testant Clergy of Itssand—their merits had been most ovtrageously
eulogized.—(Hear, and a laugh.) It had been said that they had
nothing but a mere 12,0001. or 14,0001. a year, and out of this they
had subscribed some 101. or 121. in beautifying a church, and had
been great benefactors to it.—( Cries of "No, no!" from the Mi-
nisterial benches.) Well, then, they had not been benefactors of
the Church.—( Laughter.) The Right Hon. the Member for the
University of Cambridge has taken up the story of the Noble Lord,
and has remarked upon the advantages that would accrue from
having clergymen of " nerve." The Noble Lord has called my
town of Cahirciveen a village—l beg he will in future call it a
town.--(Hear and a laugh.) He had stated that some few years
ago divine service had ceased to be performed in the Protestant
Church there. I beg to set him right. Divine service has never
eeased to be performed there, and the congregation was between
60 and 70, in a population of about 70,000. According to the re-
turns of 18'21 the congregation was 74, so that instead of an in.
crease there was a diminution. When I got possession of that
property there were only five houses in the town, two Protestant
and three Catholics. In the year 1821, the number of houses was
87, and the inhabitants amounted to 205; and in the year 1831,
there were 189 houses, and 21 more building, and 1,195 inhabi-
tants; so that in ten years the inhabitants increased from 205 to
1,195, but the number of Protestants had not increased in the same
ratio as the population has. But would the clergymen say he had
made a single convert since he had been there He could not.
But I will tell him that one of the heads of a family
there, who was at that time a Protestant, is at the present time
a Catholic, and the clerk to the curate died a Catholic. Such is
the history of the way in which you make Protestants. It was
true there are more Protestants in the town now than formerly,
but it was owing to a relation of his own, a cousin-german, going
with ten children, all Protestants, to live there.—( Laughter. ) This
is certainly a young man of nerve.--( Laughter.) He has a
rectory at Dingle, to which he goes twice a year at shearing time,
but the flock never sees him at any other time.—(Laughter. )
He also collects the rents of Sir William Blennerhasset, and the
tithes of the clergy, and he is the most busy magistrate in all
Kerry ; but he believed-he was at present feathering his family on
the Continent. This is the way in which you multiply Protes-
tants.(Laughter. ) It may serve for a moment's sport, but in
sober sadness, how does it operate upon the people of Ireland ? I
have received a letter respecting a place of which Mr. Man-
ners is the rector, where there are 4,011 Catholics, and only
three Protestants, the income being 1,5001. wear.—( Hear, hear.)
I have this upon the authority of the Rev. . Young, the parish
Priest.—(Cries of " Oh" from the Ministerial side, and " Hear,
hear," from the Opposition.) He enumerated every one of them,
and wrote to me saying that there could not be a better man
living than Mr. Manners. He never sent the military or the
police to enforce the payment of tithes.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
But the composition has not been paid him for two years—
(Cheers and laughter)—though the gentleman was so well liked,
the system is so unpopular that he was not paid one shilling. How
are you to mend this ?--( Cheers.) I hope it will be admitted that
the Hon. Member for Weymouth was as good a Protestant as any
in the House, yet he entirely agrees with my principle—he says
that it is vain to suppose that the Irish people were to be Protestanized
by the means now taken ; that the people of that country are to be made
Christians by the bayonets of policemen or the muskets of the sol-
diery. The Right Hon. and Gallant Secretary for Ireland, and
no man would suspect him of attempting to misrepresent his inten-
tions--but what signify those intentions when he is surrounded by
the Protestant ascendancy party who have religion on their tongues,
while their hearts are filled with hate ?—( Groans from the Minis-
terialists, and cheers from the Opposition.) The History of Ire-
land proves my position, and now is the time for the administration to
consider whether they are to take upend be nursed by that party, or if
the poor of Ireland are to have their case at all taken into consi-
deration. Something must be done for Ireland—the Gallant Ge-
neral, the Secretary for Ireland, has told you that tithes cannot be
collected under th 3 old form, and he calls upon you—upon the
people of England—to pay one million, one more million—the
people of England are to pay this whole million for the power of
misgoverning Ireland.—(Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would not give up the million if he had the slightest
chance—the slightest hope of ever recovering it. We have heard
much of law—let us try. now—will any one Member in the House
tell me that the money is not due? Then why is it not called up?
The Gallant Officer has told you the reason you could not by any
means in your power get it. Though the people of Ireland have not,
like their brethren of Scotland, turned out upon the hills with their
keen swords by their sides, yet it is confessed by the Govern-
ment that the feeling is so strong in that country, that
it is impossible that the million can ever be recovered.—(Hear.)
I hope the Member for Londonderry is within hearing. Had the
House heard of the determination come to in that country since
the landlords had taken upon themselves the payment of tithe ? 1
had the fact from an authority so high, that if I named him, and I
should not for a moment hesitate to do so in private, there is not a
Gentleman on the other side who would nut admit that
my authority is incapable of deceiving me. Thus we have
the North equally with the South forming in a resistance to tithe.
But what will be the consequence in the South ? I implore Hon.
Gentlemen whether they are satisfied that they can make Protes-
tants by this system, or whether they are satisfied that they should
not make Protestants by such a system, to pause before they come
to a vote between the hopes of the people of Ireland, and the en-
deavour to suffocate those hopes by the plan of turning the land-
lords into tithe agents.—(Loud and continued cheering.) It
will only make the case infinitely worse, and the Whiteboyism
which assailed tithes before, would now assail rent as well as tithes
with equal eagerness and desperation.—( Hear, hear.) Is this
system to continue? The Noble Lord (the Member for Devon-
shire) holds out hopes; which were well re-echoed by the Noble
Lord, the Member for Northumberland (Howick. ) I wish the
Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire (Stanley) would join both
of those Noble Lords—(Hear, hear)—and why should he not?—
(Loud cheers, and laughter.) He had voted for the 147th
clause, and if he has changed, why should he not change
back again—( Cheers.) Is perpetual service to be placed in the way
of improvement ? We are told that the surplus is small. Yes,
but the prinoiple is great—(Loud cheering.) It should be worked
out thus—that as Protestantism diminishes it ought to diminish,
and if it increases it (the means of the Church we suppose) ought
to increase. The Hon. Member for Weymouth said that as
Protestantism increased, the revenues ought to increase, and
the very moment he said so the reverse -of the proposition
occurred to me—(Hear, hear, hear.) But the Hon. Gentlemen
on the other side are afraid of a Catholic ascendancy. This is not
a period to be afraid of the establishment of any ascendancy. The
time of ascendancies is gone, except in England. This is the only
country where the clergymen of all classes, when they differ from
the religion of the State, are not paid equally by the State. Go
to America, will you find it there?—(Cheers.) In every State of
Europe we are become a laughing-stock, and an object of contempt.
Talk of the Catholic ascendancy in Ireland! Why the Catholics
of Ireland were three times in power since the rebellion, and they
never persecuted the Protestants. In the reign of Queen Mary,
while she was desolating England by persecution, and persons on
scaffolds and stakes were burned in London and Bristol, what was
the conduct of the Catholic Corporation of Dublin? Did they
persecute? Look at Harris's History of that period, as inimical a
writer as ever wrote against the Catholic religion, and there you
find that the Catholic Corporation of Dublin, oh, how unlike its
successor !- .(hear, hear, and laughter)--actually opened 70
dwelling houses for the English Protestants flying from Bristol,
with their families, from the persecution of Catholic Mary,
and kept them in security, and nurtured them all free of
expense for a year and a half, until death relieved the country
from the persecution of that unfortunate Queen.--( Cheers.) You
taunt some Hon. Members for introducing the state of Belgium.
Are you aware that is a Catholic Parliament, that is, there is no ex-
clusion of Protestants from the House of Commons, and that the
Catholic clergy are as eligible for a seat in the House; and, upon
a late occasion when it was proposed to make a grant to a Protestant
clergyman in Brussels for the benefit of the English there, it was put
to the vote, and was carried by an overwhelming majority, three of
the Catholic Clergy having voted for the grant, and only one being
found bigotted enough to oppose it—( Hear)—while all over the world
the symptoms of charity and benevolence exist. It is only in Ire-
land that you foster discord.—(Hear, hear.) You come into office,
you place their henchmen at the head of the State—you cram the
Privy Council with them--(Cheers)—and they, through respect to
you, carry on the Government amidst blood and burning.--
(Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side of the House),
reiterated by cheers from the Opposition.) Yes ; blood !---( Cheers. )
But what does the Parliament propose now to do ? Will they rally
round the people of Ireland? Will they throw the shield of their
protection over her? The remedies that should be applied to the
case of Ireland were well described by Johnson years ago. Bos-
well, in his life of Johnson, is said to have burst forth and asked—
" Pray Mr. Dilly"—(Loud laughter.) He (Mr. O'C.) wished
that the modern Dillys would act in the same manner.—(Conti-
nued laughter.) Mr. O'C. then proceeded to read the passage,
the substance of which was that in Ireland the majority
had long been under the sway of the minority, and
that there was no instance in the ten persecutions
to equal the oppressions which were inflicted by the Protestants
upon the Catholics of Ireland, If they were sold as they were con-
quered it would be fair, but you cannot sell them, nor can you
conquer them. Therefore the best thing you can do, is to do the
country justice.—( Cheers.) It may be said that lam disposed to
advocate a Repeal of the Union. I am, but how do you propose
to reconcile me to a contrary course ? Is it by refusing to do
justice to Ireland. We have heard a great deal of cant about good
intentions towards Ireland, and on this motion they had seen the
rats scuttling across the room—they had every thing but fair declara-
tions on the subject of this great question. My opinion is in favor of
Repeal of the Union. lam ready to give up that question if justice is
done to Ireland. lam told that this Parliament will do as much
justice to Ireland as that country might expect from an Irish Par-
liament. Don't tell us that such are your intentions, but shew us
some practical proofs of your sincerity. The Right Hon. Bart.
(Sir. J. Graham) has quoted a speech of mine that was hastily
delivered. My opinions, I admit, are strong, and sometimes car-
ried to an extreme ; but do I not know, and does not every
more
Hon. Gentleman know, that no good Government was ever yet
formed except on a compromise of opposite opinions, and a recon-
ciliation of extremes. Robespierre and Marat, with a guillotine at
their backs, succeeded, after all, only in establishing a
iron despotism than what they desired to abolish.—(Hear.)
Ireland is ready, and I am ready, to enter into a compromise.
She is now in the throes of agony at the exhibition of the Orange
flag, and would unwillingly, if the Government combined with her,
enter into that compromise. You tell her to wait awhile, but if
she does wait awhile she may rise in the wild pangs of revenge, and
reek her vengeance upon the most innocent. That, Sir, is the
state of Ireland. There never was a period so well adapted as the
present to do good to Ireland. All we require is justice, and we
call upon the House to show that it is disposed to do so. I called
upon the House in the last Session to do justice to Ireland—it re-
sponded to my call, and passed the Tithe Bill ! Our Church re-
mains unpolluted by the mammon of unrighteousness. It is not
less efficacious for its purposes. The voluntary principle has an-
swered every purpose for us; we therefore call upon you to adopt this
motion, which, if you are sincere Protestants, you ought to adopt;
for it is a motion to adapt the surplus revenue of the Church to
education. You say the Papists are ignorant—give us the money
to instruct us, and you put us upon the road to learning. Give us
this motion, and let religion have fair play ; refuse it, and you send
a proclamation to Ireland that will fill the country with horror and
dismay. Great cheering. )
Sir ROBERT PEEL then rose and said—lt is because I take
very much the same view of the construction which is to be put on
the intention and effects of this motion as those who have preceded
me—it is because I believe it will be considered in Ireland as a pro-
clamation, because 1 believe that false hopes will be excited on be-
half of the Roman Catholics, and fear inspired into the Protestants,
unless you act, on this occasion, with peculiar circumspection and
caution—it is, I say, because I believe these things, that lam in-
duced, on account of the situation which I hold, to overcome that
disinclination which every man must have, whatever be his expe-
rience in addressing public assemblies under similar circumstances
that disinclinlation which I must now especially feel, when the
attention of the House is exhausted, and when every novel ar.

gurnent which could h- has been advaneel with thA greatr•st
felicity and po-,N, say, but my puldic, duty —n,,thing
but the official duty of the station which I occupy could make
me overcome that disinclination by making a further applica-
tion for the indulgence and patient attention of the House.—
(" Hear, hear," and cheers !") Sir, in a critical period, at a
time when Ireland is convulsed, we are called on to decide this
great question, what steps shall we take for the purpose of asserting
an almost abdicated right to property.—( Hear, hear.) Four years
have passed without the assertion—the practical assertion—of that
right in many parts of Ireland. The Limo is arriving when Par-
liament must interfere—when Parliament, I say, must interfere
either by its own intrinsic authority or the authority of the law, in
recovering the rights, which, if they shall be permitted to remain
longer in abeyance, may be lost for ever.--(Cheers.) There are
four courses to be pursued ; for I am so impressed with the impor-
tance of the subject, and the result of this debate, that I pass over
all that past of it which consisted in personal sarcasms—all that part
of it which consisted in personal allusions—(Cheering.)—in cri-
minations and recriminations : I have no quotations to make, no
scraps of speeches to read ; I have very little confidence in my own
infallibility, and very little in the infallibility of others. It would
be no gratification to me to divert the attention of the House from
this most important practical subject (for it must in its bearings be
considered a practical one) by any petty, paltry triumph over a po-
litieal opponent—by proving from Hansard's Parliamentary
Debates, or The Mirror of Parliament, that last year he enter-
tained different opinions from those which he now professes.—
( Vehement cheering from the Ministerial side.) You are called
on to decide a great question of public policy. There are four
courses open to you, and four courses which you are competent to
take. You may determine upon maintaining the Church of Ireland
in the possession of its property—that is the first course. You may
assert that property to be excessive, and practically settle
the question by determining the amount of the excess :
you may discard all false expectations by saying " that is
the amount vie have determined to take from you, but
the rest shall remain in your possession." That is the se-
cond course.—(Hear, hear, hear, and Ministerial cheering.)
The next course is that which will do that full justice which the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin demanded, not in distinct
terms, indeed, but to which the whole of his arguments were di-
rected, and which will destroy the predominance of any favourite
religion, by either withholding the establishment from it, or grant-
ing it to all persuasions ; and that is a final settlement of the ques-
tion which you have to consider.—( Cheers.) That, then, is the
third of the courses of which I have spoken. There is a fourth
course which you may take, and by which you may add to religious
animosities the danger of settling a question of pecuniary interest to
the inhabitants of a country belonging to two professions of faith, by
which 3 ou leave nothing settled; by which you throw out tithes to be
scrambled for ; by which you establish nothing with respect to a sur-
plus ; by whicl• you lay down no principle of appropriation, but by
which you content yourself with declaring it to be a permanent
settlement of the question, to assert an unprofitable right to apply
an imaginary surplus to unexplained purposes.—(Loud and long-
continued cheers from the. Ministerial Benches.) And you may
do more (if the wit of man could devise an act of greater confu-
sion.) You may, I say, do more, and by your arguments support
the third course, which tends to destroy the Protestant Establish-
ment in Ireland, but afterwards shrink from acting on your own
principles, and forgetting your arguments, tell us that you took up
a position which, notwithstanding those arguments which you used
to sustain it, you find to be perfectly untenable.—(Long-con-
tinued cheering.) These are, indeed, new elements in legis-
lation. It is bad enough already ; but to tell the people of Ire-
land " I am not only not determined as to the amount of the
excess of the revenues of the Irish Church Establishment, but I
will not indicate the rate at which reduction is to be effected—l
will leave that dependent on the will, on the views, on the discre-
tion of judgment of any man who may hereafter have the power
of determining the question—l will judge as to the amount of a
surplus by a certain definite standard, namely by saying, if Pro-
testantism increases, than you shall have more—and if Protestantism
diminishes, then you shall receive less ; thereby giving to you, the
Roman Catholics of that country, a direct interest in preventing
the increase of that sect which it ie asserted exercises
a tyranny over you. We admit that you, the Roman
Catholics, have been wronged ; but we permit that you
should be bound by those wrongs to prevent the increase
of that party by whose increase your interest in those
ecclesiastical funds will be infringed upon :" to assert this is, I say,
Sir, to assert an unjust and monstrous proposition.—( Loud and
vehement cheers from the Ministerial side.) Sir, as I said before,
Ireland is convulsed : There—.
4 Hot, cold, molt, and dry
Contend for mastery ;
But you threw chaos in."
(Continued cheering.) Yes, you who professed yourselves un-
able to determine this question until you obtained further
information upon it ; you who wanted t.o ascertain the
bearings of the Church on the religious and moral welfare of the
people. But you will not wait until the repo' tof our own Com-
mission even is completed, or until you can arrange the principles
of your own enactments. You thought it convenient to
oppose the first measure introduced by Government, and in
order to advance your abstract theory. But this resolution
is full of practical details, and in its results will reach
the remotest parish in Ireland. You chose to submit to those, and
I appeal in proof of the assertion to the speech of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman which you have just heard, to those who wish
for she destruction of the establishment. Sir, lam prepared to
adopt one of the plans to which I have referred. lam prepared to
assert the right of the existing law. All I ask is to be permitted
calmly to state to the House the grounds on which I come to this
decision. Sir, there are other parties equally anxious for the
result of our debate ; and who look with equal eagerness for our
decision as the Catholics—l mean the Protestants of Ireland.
I do not assert that if you chose to come to the resolution
and decide in opposition to what I conceive to be the public in-
terests—if you wish to violate what is established by long prescrip-
tion—and if you desire to interfere with established law, I do not
Mean t.o deny the absolute and abstract right of the Lcgi3latnre to
act upon its views. But I assert that you ought to be convinced
by argument, efore you come to that conclusion. There are the
great measures affecting the condition of the Protestants of
Ireland, and of the Catholics also.—(Hear, hear.) There
was first the measure of the Union, differing from a law in
this respect, that it carried with it the force of a national com-
pact, and contained within the conditions on which a Legislature
resigned its rights. The Catholics were not adverse to it.—(Cries
of "Oh ! Oh !" from the Irish Members.) The Protestants
were not opposed to it, and in the compact it was expressly pro-
vided that the rights and privileges of the United Chambers of
England and Ireland should continue the same. The Hon. Mem-
ber for St. Albans attempted to shew by resolutions, and extract from
the speeches of Mr. Pitt, that some right was reserved to the Church
in the Act of Union with respect to civil disabilities ; but I contend
that there was no right reserved to deal with the property of
the Church. The Protestant reads these words in the Act of
Union, and if their meaning is to be determined by a plain reference
to the ordinary sense of these words, can there be a doubt what
their intent is 1 The Act provides, " that the maintenance and
preservation of the Established Church, as the United Church of
England and Ireland, shall be deemed, and taken to be an essential
and fundamontal part of the Union. There is a previous stipu-
lation that the doctrine, discipline, and government of that Church
shall be maintained.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Parliament did
not let it rest there—it stipulated as a part of the compact
that the maintenaece and preservation of that Church should be an
essential and fundamental part of the Union. In the year 1829,
the Roman Catholic disabilities were removed, and although I
might say that that Act has not the force of such a compact as the
Act of Union, yet I should say that it is irrevocable, and only to
be revoked by some important and eventful circumstance. I con-
sider it irrevocable as regards the liberties of the Roman Catholics,
and it ought to be irrevocable as regards the assurances given to
the Government at that period.—( Cheers from the Ministerial
side.) By that Act, the Government was led to believe
that there would be entertained no intention to subvert the
present Church, as established by law, within this realm.—
(Cheers.) They had been led to believe that no privileges that
Act conferred would be exercised to disturb or weaken the Protes-
tant religion, or Protestant Government, as by law established,
within the realm. They had been told that the removal of
the Civil Disabilities of the Roman Catholics would give new
security to the Church of Ireland. They had been told that
their removal would redress the injustice of which the Hon. and
Learned Member complained; but they were not aware that within
five years from the passing of that Act the power which it had con-
ferred would be exercised to subvert that Church Establishment—
(Tremendous and reiterated cheers from the Ministerialists)—
so far at least as the property of the Church was concerned, and
they were not aware that by consenting to the removal of those
disabilities they would have been called on to remove the Church
which had conceded these privileges. You passed another Act only
two years since for the Reform of the Church of Ireland—and you
cut off no less than 10 of the Bishops of that Church. You determined,
and in my opinion wisely, to review the state of the Church of Ireland.
You said, in my opinion wisely, that ecclesiastical sinecures shall
follow the same course that has been taken by those of a civil na-
ture—a power was indeed taken by one clause of the original Bill
by which that property of the Church having no interest with the
other was to be applied to secular purposes ; but by the subsequent
abandonment of that particular clause, you said you would held
ecclesiastical property for ecclesiastical purposes.—( Great cheer-
ing.) Two years only have passed since that time, and notwith-
standing the Act of Union—notwithstanding the Act by which ten
bishoprics were abolished—two years only have elapsed when the Hon.
Member for Dublin comes forward and tells you you must issue a new
proclamation for Ireland, and establish a new system of Govern-
ment for that country.—(Cheers, and loud cries of .‘ No, no.")
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Alban's tells you, that
you having done away with some of the abuses of the Church ; you
have dealt with Church property, and set a precedent for the pre-
sent proposition. The Hon. Member for St . Alban's, notwithstanding
the caution of the Noble Lord, had plunged deep and at once into
the bog, and attempted to cross it, and because that I, being warned
by the example of the Hon. Gentleman, am determined to avoid
that fate—l confess I saw with considerable pain the Hon. Mem-
ber floundering in the middle of the bog—there he stuck ; and he
had not passed beyond that point, so long as I heard him.—
(Cheers.) The reason no doubt was, that he was entangled with
the weight of his own arguments.—(Cheers.) If Hon. Gentle-
men would prepare themselves with all the knowledge collected
from the time of Noah down to his own, lie must expect
to be left deep in the Serbonian Bog.—( Great cheering. )
What has been the whole course of the law? What was the prin-
ciple in respect to first fruits, and the Curate Act, except that for
the benefit of the Church you had a right to redress individual
abuses ?.e-( Hear, hear, hear.) Nothing can justify the appro-
priation of Church property to any other than to eccle-
siastical purposes, and I shall not discuss any other ap-
appropriation of Church property.—( Cheers from the Opposition.)
Why should I be called upon to discuss any contingency, when I am
only desirous of touching upon the practical question ? I desire
to avoid all superfluous discussion, and therefore I refuse to discuss
hypothetical questions. The Noble Lord said the surplus was
791,0001., but I doubt if it amounts to 450,000/.—(Hear, hear. )
Now that is a great difference, and would it not be premature to
discuss the application of a surplus, the amount of which was not
known. At one time the amount was stated to be 800,000/. It
was not 791,000/., it is not more than 450,0001.—(Cheers.) I
ask the House whether they will come to a resolution pledging
to appropriate this sum ?—( Great Cheering.) I ask the Noble
Lord again that question ?—( Hear,) I ask him whether he has
made any estimate for the demands for national education ? I ask
the House whether it is right to form an opinion respecting the ap-
plication of a surplus without some estimate? I wish the Noble
Lord would answer this question. The Noble Lord assumes the
revenue of the Irish Church to be 791,0001., and he proposes to
apply the surplus to purposes of education. I ask again what is the
estimate for the demand of education? Does any man believe that
100,000/. will be required for this purpose? I will give '200,000/.
to be so applied-200,0001. a year. I entreat the House, if they
are anxious in the cause of education, before they determine to
overload education with superfluous wealth, to require some esti-
mate as to the application of this money. But, supposing this de-
mand to be 200,0001., which is the most that by possibility can be
applied to education, still it will leave the Chui oh of Ireland in
possession of 591,0001. The resolution itself, allowing 200,000/. for
the purposes of education, does not consider the remaining 591,000/.
too large an endowment for the Church.—(Great cheering.) I
assert that the Irish Church have not more than 450,000/, I