The Sun.
London, England, 1835-04-03 00:00:00

PSONANI such
a measure as the one now brought forward. But if he
heel to select persons who differed most from each other in their opi-
h,, It,,g w,respecting the appropriation of Church property, he should name
'
wara", Gentlemen opposite. The Noble Lord had, in bringing for-
churehni' proposition, confined his intentions to the mere surplus of
and YernPerty, after amply and sufficiently providing for the wants
th2:uci ncy of the Protestant establishment, and had proposed to apply
to'
.urplus to the general purposes of education, but he had been fol-
.t:d_ by the Right Hon. Member for Staffordshire, and the Hon. and
th:Zediv Member for the Tower Hamlets, who had expressed
Which the as
totally opposed to the Established Church in Ireland,
the, e had described as a nuisance to be abolished. Could
forgetagreed on
as they had been told, that the late Government had
of that h the appropriation of Church property, and yet a member
ni„o,pt,literthettiooovtehrenrmthenant necoewletsoiasldtitchalemp that no part of it was to be
urposes, until the claims of the
Protestant Church had been fully satisfied, and then that surplus
was t° he applied to none but the purpose of education? Let them
depend n hear so much of unanimity. But this question did not
on such insignificant circumstances. The main and only
tinestio
n was, whether Church property was available to other than
tio• et!istical purposes. They were told that the mere appropria-
-67 02.1111. a limited part of that property would pacify and satisfy
But would any man who knew the state of that country
believe that that if the amount of that property were diminished,
• d require the less exertion to collect tithes ? So far from
hv t e Government to collect. the tithes in that country, it
would only
to new give rise to the expectations of farther concessions, and
demands, which, not conceded, would but increase dis-
contenten_ and agitation. This appropriation was, as he conceived,
y to moral duty, in direct. variance with its original pur-
✓o- dangerous to the State, and hazardous to the welfare and sto-
w f the Protestant Church in that country.
attention
POWELL BUXTON should not have trespassed on the
blon of the House if it were not for an amendment
otch had to propose. --( Hear hear.) He should have
sev_ ght it unnecessary to advert to Observations which fell from
hose Me
rat Members on the other side of the ouse, attributin to
ti s with whom he coincided as being acttuaHted by unworthy g mo-
ve_s% if it were not for some remarks which fell from the Hon.
m_
ber for Newark with respect to the state of education, and the
o maintenance of the Established Church in Ireland. The spread
in educationhis and the maintenance of the Established Church, were,
impor-
tant inion, very different things, and involved vast and
consequencesimpor-
whe in their separate adjustment.--(Hear, hear. )-
1 were the questions which were brought before the
thett'eti. The Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had distinctly told
wha, house what Ireland and its distractions have been, and
Its distractions may be. Again they have told us that the
t7,afestant Church is at stake, and if you carry this motion Pro-
nzi,sreit_ent,ti.isvmes will be abandoned in the south of Ireland. With such
se eat and important considerations, hecould not consistently listen
attributing to him a desire to unseat the present Admi-
nistration on the party quibbles which were said to actuate some
th2z;,Members. There was no one who felt more then he did for
fotetri oble Lord who had spoken on the other side of the House,
to
h. ere was no one who ought to feel more deeply indebted
M having formed part of that Administration which
uttenght forward and carried a question which he thought no
e:'r Ministry would have done. It was a question beyond such
,onsideration that could induce him to offer his opinion in opposi-
,nsinveto the Noble Lord. It appeared to him that the question re-
s.. d itself into three distinct principles. First, was there a
tiunrienis fund belonging to the Church beyond what its claims re-
red? Secondly, was there also a surplus fund beyond the
necessities of the Irish Church, should that Church much increase ?
'idly, having made a provision as it was, having made a pro-
Bevil as it might be, was there any excess still remaining ?
roil believed there would still be a surplus. He did not
oat"' into any nice calculations on a comparison of the
e of the Churches in England and Ireland; yet he was con-
need the endowments of the Church of Ireland were greater
t
those of England. It was an important mistake to say that a
"4rell gathered weight or influence by its wealth or possessions.
14`,,heers- ) If splendid ag,grandizements and enormous endow-
me could have rendered it effectual in converting the people,
would not have a single Catholic in the country. They had had
Neli, they had had Protestant ascendancy, and they had the ex-
Lerenent and they had seen how it had failed. He should like to
the experiment tried by a body of men, who if they entered the
nztrY, did so, not for wealth and honours, but from no other
Li,"''"es but that of doing good, and then he should anticipate a
terent result. He did not think it was in human nature to re-
j.' the influence of men, who, showing the utmost self-denial,
,;tting in private retirement, and who show by their conduct and
deportmentxis the visible influence of their divine embassy.—
; ) But then it was said. your example in Ireland would be
riZeceent dog Enland. Be it so.—(Cheers. ) He desired
lei log more than to see this principle of the surplus funds
ng taken from the Clergy for the education of the people.--( Hoar. )
sa
far an from being enemy to the Church, or sacrificing anything
to thend prejudices of those who were opposed to it, he should think,
lq he was confirmed in his impression by what fell from the
Ile thou
for Newark, that he was promoting its best interests.
the Irish thought there would be found to be a surplus of revenue in
4., Church. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last night of
ia Archbishop of Armagh, told them he was not worth more than
ten thousand a-year.
Iti_An Hoe. MEMBER—Fourteen thousand.
san-7• F. BUXTON in continuation—Well, then, fourteen thou-
fool' I think from that, and even from ten thousand, a
alt„"er reduction could take place.— (Hear.) Let itd,
be
and where the clergy were non-resident and wealthy,
.21 their incomes should be cut down. He came next to the
he question. Would the Church, supposing it to increase, as
tv had no doubt it would, be amply provided for out of the reve-
!eB?" He thought the Protestant Church in Ireland would in-
-I,„easo, because the Catholic Church always had an unfair advan-
Zge, that of being a persecuted religion. There was something in
'e fact of being subject to pains and penalties for the profession
of any anY particular form of belief that made one adhere to its doe-
and it should be recollected that bribery, though the time
Protestant
• distant, was one of the means taken to propagate the
retestant religion in Ireland--the bribery which offered
te
the son the estate of the father, provided he conformed to the
Reformed faith. He honoured the Protestant religion, but he
dislikedi Protestant ascendancy. There was a broad distinction
between a religious establishment and a political faction.—
) When the Protestant religion condescended to appeal to
e worst and basest passions of their nature, no wonder that the
I"'hes of its sincere friends could not be realized. No wonder that
11: Catholics turned a deaf ear to a religion which was tendered to
by those who bore the Scriptures in one hand and the sword
-n the other. In the south of Ireland, he did not think the Catholic
,e
tgion was any longer a persecuted faith—it was nearer approach-
se !bought when the people became acquainted with the divine
truths of the Reformed Religion, and when they saw the solid
,eundations of the Church, they would embrace them. He did not
!,)eliere there was in existence a more apostolic, a purer, or a more
the
set of men then those who now formed the ministry of
I`e Established Church in Ireland.—(Loud cheers from the Mi-
v,4.lstetial Benches.) He would do justice to those good men despite
the cheers from the opposite side of the House. On these facts
tested his hopes—on the loss of persecution which the Catholic
Church sustained, and on the increased spirituality of the Church
• taigland. He belive d the Chch would increase • at all
-/ente he would give it a fair trial.ur It was agreed on all hands
that the usefulness of the clergy should be extended. Why should
tt Stop there, and why should it be supposed that the Churchof
~,ngland being once inefficient in Ireland would always remain so ?
• it fair play—relieve it of the disastrous advantages which it is
to possess, and he believed honestly that the established religion
would flourish. So convinced was he that it would, that when the
'e• °Per time would arrive, he should propose a resolution to make a
r°Per provision for that increase.—(Hear.) This, he understood,
not a convenient time to make such a resolution, but he hoped,
amore that time would arrive, the Noble Lord would tell him
tnat he concurred in such a proposition.—(Hear, hear.)
lie would now come to the last point--supposing there would be a
itrOlus beyond the provision for the Church, how were they to ap-
ply? He must say, that he had been greatly gratified by one
enmstance--namely, that no Irish Gentleman had risen to claim
nts-et surplus for the Irish landlords. He should have felt it his
to oppose such a proposition, as it would have been a desecra-
ti
00 of Church property to secular purposes, and, above all, it
;Geld not bring peace to Ireland.—( Bear, from the Irish benches. )
This, he was happy to say, had not been proposed, and yet the
Pght 11.0 n. Gentleman opposite had objected to the Church Pro-
bei.eg applied to any but Ecclesiastical purposes. But I do not
Anderstand that he objects to application of surplus (if any) to the
I:sne_ation_ of the people through the medium of the Church.
feeds
would give him (Mr. F.. Buxton) more pleasure or satis-
tChnl than such a proceeding.—(Ministerial cheers.) He
,°aglit that such a measure would be a remedy and compensation
• Ireland for the series of persecutions which that country had
endured, ltiut the thing was impossible.—(Loud cheers from the
uPpositionn ) The Church in Ireland presented itself in so odious
r'°,lll—it had been so connected with Protestant ascendancy—
Pre memory of injuries and insults was so fresh in the minds of the
ish people, that they would not even receive truths from that
Church.—(Hear.) Teaching the people through the medium
4' the Church was, therefore, saying that they would not be
ta,nght at all.—( Cheers.) He now came to the resolution of the
Lord, and he regretted deeply that he had been induced to
'eave out in his resolution the words " moral and religious," and
stthataute " general." The difference might appear to some little I
Ito la ins it was great. He thought they were bound to shew the
People of England that if they alienated the Church property they
Were bound to apply it to moral and religious instruction. He
therefore coped the Noble Lord would not object to the re-insertion
of these words, and if they were introduced he should entirely
4.Pprove of the motion of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) What
history, had they heard of Ireland last night ? The Right Hon.
,7n Gallant Member for Launceston had asked them to name any pe-
7°d, to take their own time- to go back even to the days of Henrylthe
"tn—and he would show them that the system pursued in Ireland
had been a system of war, bloodshed, and rapine.—( Cheers.) He
believed that the only way to make the people of Ireland good sub-
jects, was to snake them good Protestants, and that he believed
etedd only be effected by a general
hurtsystem of moral nnd religious
tsinstruction. He meant not to the feelings of any Hon. Mem-
ers, but it WAS evident that there was error somewhere, either on
The one side or the other, and the only way to banish error and
t'ltablish truth, was to give the people a moral andreligious education.
It would, in his opinion, be applying the surplus revenues to the best
PurPoses—to make Protestants of the Catholics. It was the only way,
In the resent state of Ireland, of removing the religious animosity
which existed there, and which had been the bane of that country
which had produced great evils, but none greater or deeper than
that of standing in the way of propagating the religion of the
.Bible.--(Cheers, and loud cries for Mr. Shaw. )
Mr. 11. TWISS, however, proceeded. He said almost every
Member who had yet spoken, had laid great stress upon the vast
itnportanee of the question then before the House. If the Mem-
bers would admit that the question involved the existence, not only
of the Irish, but of the English Church, then it was of the utmost im-
Ttiance. But considering it only as to the chance of a small surplus
e considered it as one of the most trifling of any that had been
'taken that session. The only argument that had been used in the
debate was the old one of the hardship imposed upon the Catholic
Peasant, by the payment of tithes. But the proposition before
the House would not relieve him from any part of that hardship,
and he did not belYtve that the Catholic peasant or the small far-
mer will be induced to pest tithes as a land charge, merely because
a small portion of it was to be applied for the purposes
of education. The principal supporters of the resolution were
those who last session had opposed that of the Hon. Member for St.
Albans--he did not wish to pick up a single or stray expression of
an Hon. Member, but when he saw a series of members going dia.
metrieally opposed to their recorded opinions upon so important a
subject, he must say that it bore all the appearance of faction. The
Hon. Member then compared the opinions of Lord John Russell as
declared upon Mr. Ward's motion, and those he expressed on open-
ing the debate, and contended that as there was now no
.more information before the House than they were possessed of,
fin, and of course the argument was as strong now as then.
lon Althorp after stating his plans to the House, said, " I trust
they will give satisfaction." Then a cheer followed, and the
"unie Lord added, " That cheer assures me of it." His Lordship
'tattered himself that he had effectually succeeded. But did his
Hight Hon. Friend and his colleague do their duty by this
Bill ? If they did, what was the standard of their demands,
now, which they asked in tones of such inveterate complaint ? But

they did not do their duty ; with what grace, then, could they now
{Urn round. and complain of their successors ?—(Hear. ) It was T
proposed to give the surplus revenue to educate the poor, but had
he not a right to ask, though there were large' livings, was it not
also true that there were some very small ones, too, and if they re-
reduced the large ones, ought not the small ones to be
augmented ?—( Hear, hear.) The Church had a right to enjoy
the surplus, if there was any, but what was the total revenue now
applicable to the Irish Church ? It would turn out that there was
not a larger amount allowed than the exigencies of the Irish Church
required. When Lord Althorp made his statement he began with
a very remarkable expression, to the effect that on no other subject
did such great misapprehension prevail as upon the revenues of the
Irish Church. But the Hon. Gentlemen opposite contended that
if ten bishoprics could be torn away, something else could also
be spared.—( Hear.) Was that the way to look at the question ?
The Hon. Member for Halifax said 100,0001. a year might be
saved from the Irish Church revenue, but what would be the im-
mediate relief so boastfully promised? Why it was mummery to
call it a question of relief, for amongst the people of Ireland it
would amount to just four pence per head. It was a ridicule upon
the Irish people to suppose that such a modicum could be any relief
to them. What was there to justify the change in opinion of
Gentlemen on the other side ?—(Hear, hear.) He would not again
rely upon the authority of Lord Brougham, because,notwithstanding
his great talents, he was not popular upon this question with the
gentlemen on the other side ; but Lord Lansdowne was not open to
the same objection, and he said, in his place in the House of Lords,
that nothing would induce him to consent to the appropriation of
any part of the revenues of the Irish Church to other purposes
than those, or some analogous to them, to which they were
now by law appropriated.—( Hear, hear.) What was the difference
between the course pursued by the Government of Earl Grey and
that of the present? He saw none.—(Loud cries of " Question.")
The proposition of the Noble Lord meant one thing and professed
another—it created circumstances in order to use them.—(Re-
newed cries of " Question.") He would not trespass longer upon
the attention of the House, but would conclude by thanking them
or the indulgence they had shewn him.
L•rd CLEMENTS, Mr. O'CONNELL, and several other Members
then rose together. There were loud cries for Mr. O'Connell, bet
the Learned Gentleman gave way to Lord Clements.
Lord CLEMENTS then proceeded to say it might be pre-
sumptuous in him, a plain country gentleman, to come forward after
the House had listened to so many learned gentleman for a length of
time, but if the House would grant him indulgence for five minutes,he
would not trespass on their attention longer. The remarks he should
have to make would only have reference to the effect this motion would
have in Ireland. He considered, as had been said by the Gallant
Officer opposite, that a great deal of the discontent and disturbance
in Ireland might be traced to other causes besides that of religious
discord. But he would say, that unless they attempted to remove
that religious discord, all other endeavours to quiet Ireland
would be utterly ineffectual. This measure was a sine
qua non to removing religious discord. He would not pretend
to deny that Honourable Gentlemen opposite had shewn
that by means of certain laws that had lately passed, a great portion
of the surplus had been frittered away.—( Hear, hear.) He la-
mented it, but whose fault was it ? There were two complaints
against the Protestant establishment in Ireland; one was, that the
revenues of the Church were excessive in proportion to the duties
that were to be performed, and that thereby its efficiency was di-
minished ; the other was, that it did not afford that spiritual instruc-
tion to the majority of the people, or to the poorer ranks of society
that was necessary ; and there were many who, though they admitted
there was ground for the first complaint, yet they stated that the
Irish population were so anxious to get rid of the Church alto-
gether, that they were determined to resist all reduction in the
revenues of the Establishment. —(" Hear, hear," from Lord
Stanley.) He admitted the Catholics of Ireland were anxious to
get rid of the Established Church.—(Ministerial cheers.) It was
no secret ; but the Protestant Establishment had two objects in
view
:th onewas,
instruction in religion
and moral duty,
a
other
was entirely a political object, and one
which he should always condemn.—(Hear, hear.) What he advo-
cated was equality, and if he were a Catholic he would never sub-
mit to any thing but equality.—(Hear, hear.) The Roman Ca-
tholic Religion was established in Ireland as much as any religion
could be, and he regretted it, for he wished to see Protestant
ascendancy established, so far as the doctrines of Protestantism
was concerned, as he believed they were true, and inculcated
charity and peace. As it is, unless perfect religious equality
was established—by which he meant a diminution of the re-
venues of the Protestant Ch.irch to_ meet the legitimate wants
of the people, and the payment of the Roman Catholic Clergy
by the State—no peace could be expected in Ireland. [When the
Noble Lord sat down, there were loud cries of " O'Connell,
O'Connell," from all parts of the House. ]
In the midst of the confusion occasioned by these calls,
Mr. BORTHWICK rose to address the House, but such was
the uproar that ensued, not a word could be heard from the Hon.
Member. For five or six minutes he stood, apparently addressing
the House, and making the most violent gesticulations. At every
pause he made, the cries of—Question, question—divide, divide,
were raised. Having obtained a partial hearing, we understood
him to say that it was his intention to have given way, but as the
House would not permit him even to state that such was his de-
termination, he was now determined to stand upon his right.
and therefore begged to move, that the resolution of the Noble
Lord be read.
The SPEAKER accordingly read the resolution.
The SPEAKER thought that Hon. Members were pursuing a
course that would neither be advantageous to themselves or the